Trapital https://trapital.com/podcast en All rights reserved. Trapital is where technology meets culture. Hear breakdowns on the most important trends in tech, media, and entertainment. Trapital founder Dan Runcie and various guests break down the moves that shape the rest of society. Learn more https://megaphone.imgix.net/podcasts/dbed7298-09b2-11f0-b344-b77921e693a8/image/21c21f2c14af754d524c173eff17ee68.png?ixlib=rails-4.3.1&max-w=3000&max-h=3000&fit=crop&auto=format,compress Trapital https://trapital.com/podcast no episodic Where technology meets culture Dan Runcie Trapital is where technology meets culture. Hear breakdowns on the most important trends in tech, media, and entertainment. Trapital founder Dan Runcie and various guests break down the moves that shape the rest of society. Learn more Trapital is where technology meets culture. Hear breakdowns on the most important trends in tech, media, and entertainment. Trapital founder Dan Runcie and various guests break down the moves that shape the rest of society. Learn more

]]> Dan Runcie info@trapital.com Clive Davis Part 2: Reviving Careers, Industry Power, and Leaving a Legacy In part two, you'll hear Clive Davis reflect on strategic decisions made when running a record label and career revivals he helped shape that defined another chapter of his run. He discusses the balance of control and economics in label joint ventures, why hitmakers are not always great talent scouts, and how LaFace became a powerful force through artists like Toni Braxton, TLC, and Pink. Davis also shares how he revived the careers of timeless artists, including Dionne Warwick, Aretha Franklin, Rod Stewart, Santana, and Luther Vandross. It’s a conversation about instinct, patience, and the discipline it takes to build lasting success in the music business. CHAPTERS 02:51 LaFace, Label Deals, and Joint Ventures 09:42 TLC, Toni Braxton, and P!nk 12:37 The Cost of Breaking Artists 17:05 Aretha, Rod Stewart, and Santana 21:14 Catalog vs. Career Revival 25:30 Follow-up Call SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Tue, 14 Apr 2026 10:20:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie In part two, you'll hear Clive Davis reflect on strategic decisions made when running a record label and career revivals he helped shape that defined another chapter of his run. He discusses the balance of control and economics in label joint ventures, why hitmakers are not always great talent scouts, and how LaFace became a powerful force through artists like Toni Braxton, TLC, and Pink. Davis also shares how he revived the careers of timeless artists, including Dionne Warwick, Aretha Franklin, Rod Stewart, Santana, and Luther Vandross. It’s a conversation about instinct, patience, and the discipline it takes to build lasting success in the music business. CHAPTERS 02:51 LaFace, Label Deals, and Joint Ventures 09:42 TLC, Toni Braxton, and P!nk 12:37 The Cost of Breaking Artists 17:05 Aretha, Rod Stewart, and Santana 21:14 Catalog vs. Career Revival 25:30 Follow-up Call SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. In part two, you'll hear Clive Davis reflect on strategic decisions made when running a record label and career revivals he helped shape that defined another chapter of his run.


He discusses the balance of control and economics in label joint ventures, why hitmakers are not always great talent scouts, and how LaFace became a powerful force through artists like Toni Braxton, TLC, and Pink. Davis also shares how he revived the careers of timeless artists, including Dionne Warwick, Aretha Franklin, Rod Stewart, Santana, and Luther Vandross. It’s a conversation about instinct, patience, and the discipline it takes to build lasting success in the music business.


CHAPTERS

02:51 LaFace, Label Deals, and Joint Ventures

09:42 TLC, Toni Braxton, and P!nk

12:37 The Cost of Breaking Artists

17:05 Aretha, Rod Stewart, and Santana

21:14 Catalog vs. Career Revival

25:30 Follow-up Call


SPONSORS

Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more



TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.


]]> 1891 no Clive Davis Part 1: Whitney Houston, Resilience, and The World's Greatest Party I sat down with the legendary record executive Clive Davis. We looked back on the career-defining moments that made him one of the most influential figures in music. He shares memories from the Beverly Hills Hotel, where we recorded the conversation. We also discussed the evolution of his famed pre-Grammy gala, and the philosophy behind honoring artists in the room. Davis also revisits being pushed out at Columbia, Arista, launching J Records, and the story behind Whitney Houston recording “Why Does It Hurt So Bad.” It’s a conversation about instinct, reinvention, and what it takes to keep going at the highest levels in business. CHAPTERS 04:21 Clive Davis' Pre-Grammy Gala 11:30 Lessons Learned at Columbia 15:38 From Arista to J Records 23:41 When Whitney Houston and Clive Disagreed SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Tue, 14 Apr 2026 10:00:00 -0000 trailer Dan Runcie I sat down with the legendary record executive Clive Davis. We looked back on the career-defining moments that made him one of the most influential figures in music. He shares memories from the Beverly Hills Hotel, where we recorded the conversation. We also discussed the evolution of his famed pre-Grammy gala, and the philosophy behind honoring artists in the room. Davis also revisits being pushed out at Columbia, Arista, launching J Records, and the story behind Whitney Houston recording “Why Does It Hurt So Bad.” It’s a conversation about instinct, reinvention, and what it takes to keep going at the highest levels in business. CHAPTERS 04:21 Clive Davis' Pre-Grammy Gala 11:30 Lessons Learned at Columbia 15:38 From Arista to J Records 23:41 When Whitney Houston and Clive Disagreed SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. I sat down with the legendary record executive Clive Davis. We looked back on the career-defining moments that made him one of the most influential figures in music.


He shares memories from the Beverly Hills Hotel, where we recorded the conversation. We also discussed the evolution of his famed pre-Grammy gala, and the philosophy behind honoring artists in the room. Davis also revisits being pushed out at Columbia, Arista, launching J Records, and the story behind Whitney Houston recording “Why Does It Hurt So Bad.” It’s a conversation about instinct, reinvention, and what it takes to keep going at the highest levels in business.


CHAPTERS


04:21 Clive Davis' Pre-Grammy Gala

11:30 Lessons Learned at Columbia

15:38 From Arista to J Records

23:41 When Whitney Houston and Clive Disagreed


SPONSORS

Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week

Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more


TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.


]]> 1871 no Coachella’s Dilemma: Stadium Money vs. Festival Money Coachella sold out in five days after announcing Justin Bieber as headliner. That's the good news. The bad news? It tells you how hard it's become to book a headline act who can actually move 250,000 tickets for the one of most premiere music festivals in the world.Dave Brooks, a music correspondent at Puck and host of the Decibel and Docket podcast, joins the show to break down the business of festival season 2026. We get into why the biggest artists no longer need Coachella, which festivals are actually profitable, and what's ahead for live music.CHAPTERS07:46 The Bieber Effect08:02 Stadium Money11:50 Why Stagecoach is Different21:13 Lollapalooza23:43 Chris Brown and Kanye WestSPONSORSAll People Powered is a live concert and pitch competition on Saturday, April 11 where three Bay Area founders pitch on stage for $30,000 in real funding. Get your ticket here.Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your , TikTok, YouTube, and more Mon, 06 Apr 2026 11:11:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie Coachella sold out in five days after announcing Justin Bieber as headliner. That's the good news. The bad news? It tells you how hard it's become to book a headline act who can actually move 250,000 tickets for the one of most premiere music festivals in the world.Dave Brooks, a music correspondent at Puck and host of the Decibel and Docket podcast, joins the show to break down the business of festival season 2026. We get into why the biggest artists no longer need Coachella, which festivals are actually profitable, and what's ahead for live music.CHAPTERS07:46 The Bieber Effect08:02 Stadium Money11:50 Why Stagecoach is Different21:13 Lollapalooza23:43 Chris Brown and Kanye WestSPONSORSAll People Powered is a live concert and pitch competition on Saturday, April 11 where three Bay Area founders pitch on stage for $30,000 in real funding. Get your ticket here.Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your , TikTok, YouTube, and more Coachella sold out in five days after announcing Justin Bieber as headliner. That's the good news. The bad news? It tells you how hard it's become to book a headline act who can actually move 250,000 tickets for the one of most premiere music festivals in the world.
Dave Brooks, a music correspondent at Puck and host of the Decibel and Docket podcast, joins the show to break down the business of festival season 2026. We get into why the biggest artists no longer need Coachella, which festivals are actually profitable, and what's ahead for live music.
CHAPTERS
07:46 The Bieber Effect
08:02 Stadium Money
11:50 Why Stagecoach is Different
21:13 Lollapalooza
23:43 Chris Brown and Kanye West
SPONSORS
All People Powered is a live concert and pitch competition on Saturday, April 11 where three Bay Area founders pitch on stage for $30,000 in real funding. Get your ticket here.
Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your , TikTok, YouTube, and more

]]> 1774 no Talent Agencies: Who Leads the Next Era? Now that Wasserman Agency has rebrand itself to "The Team," what's next? Who will lead The Team? Who will the new owner be? What will they do with it? Elsewhere in the talent agency world, CAA has a new managing director for music touring, and UTA's longtime leader has stepped down. Who will lead the next era? I am joined by Ben Sisario from the New York Times to unpack the talent agency business, the leadership and reputational questions surrounding the companies, and what it all signals about succession, private equity, and the future of agency power. CHAPTERS 05:05 Wasserman's Rebrand 08:23 Sale Scenarios 12:52 Margins And Risk 21:16 Why Music Lags 26:08 The Black Box of Talent Agencies SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Linktree: Share music, sell merch, and connect with fans on one simple link. Linktree is the #1 link in bio tool that musicians and artists use to connect fans to everything they do. Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Mon, 30 Mar 2026 14:01:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie Now that Wasserman Agency has rebrand itself to "The Team," what's next? Who will lead The Team? Who will the new owner be? What will they do with it? Elsewhere in the talent agency world, CAA has a new managing director for music touring, and UTA's longtime leader has stepped down. Who will lead the next era? I am joined by Ben Sisario from the New York Times to unpack the talent agency business, the leadership and reputational questions surrounding the companies, and what it all signals about succession, private equity, and the future of agency power. CHAPTERS 05:05 Wasserman's Rebrand 08:23 Sale Scenarios 12:52 Margins And Risk 21:16 Why Music Lags 26:08 The Black Box of Talent Agencies SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Linktree: Share music, sell merch, and connect with fans on one simple link. Linktree is the #1 link in bio tool that musicians and artists use to connect fans to everything they do. Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Now that Wasserman Agency has rebrand itself to "The Team," what's next? Who will lead The Team? Who will the new owner be? What will they do with it? Elsewhere in the talent agency world, CAA has a new managing director for music touring, and UTA's longtime leader has stepped down. Who will lead the next era?


I am joined by Ben Sisario from the New York Times to unpack the talent agency business, the leadership and reputational questions surrounding the companies, and what it all signals about succession, private equity, and the future of agency power.


CHAPTERS


05:05 Wasserman's Rebrand

08:23 Sale Scenarios

12:52 Margins And Risk

21:16 Why Music Lags

26:08 The Black Box of Talent Agencies


SPONSORS

Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week

Linktree: Share music, sell merch, and connect with fans on one simple link. Linktree is the #1 link in bio tool that musicians and artists use to connect fans to everything they do.

Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more


TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.


]]> 1834 no Can AI Music Creation Be a Real Growth Market? As streaming growth slows, the music industry is searching for its next big opportunity. One of the leading bets? AI-powered music creation. I'm joined by MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano to break down whether platforms like Suno represent a true growth engine or just another niche product. We explore the rise of consumer creation, the limits of the “superfan” narrative, and why the future of music revenue may be more fragmented than the industry hopes. CHAPTERS 02:10 Rise of AI music tools 06:00 The superfan idea 14:30 The superfan landscape 22:30 Suno’s growth 40:00 AI vs. streaming 46:00 Labels and deals 52:00 Streaming’s future SPONSORS Symphonic's Women Empowered+ mentorship program. ⁠Apply as a mentor or mentee here⁠. Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Linktree: Share music, sell merch, and connect with fans on one simple link. Linktree is the #1 link in bio tool that musicians and artists use to connect fans to everything they do. TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Mon, 23 Mar 2026 15:56:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie As streaming growth slows, the music industry is searching for its next big opportunity. One of the leading bets? AI-powered music creation. I'm joined by MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano to break down whether platforms like Suno represent a true growth engine or just another niche product. We explore the rise of consumer creation, the limits of the “superfan” narrative, and why the future of music revenue may be more fragmented than the industry hopes. CHAPTERS 02:10 Rise of AI music tools 06:00 The superfan idea 14:30 The superfan landscape 22:30 Suno’s growth 40:00 AI vs. streaming 46:00 Labels and deals 52:00 Streaming’s future SPONSORS Symphonic's Women Empowered+ mentorship program. ⁠Apply as a mentor or mentee here⁠. Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Linktree: Share music, sell merch, and connect with fans on one simple link. Linktree is the #1 link in bio tool that musicians and artists use to connect fans to everything they do. TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. As streaming growth slows, the music industry is searching for its next big opportunity. One of the leading bets? AI-powered music creation.

I'm joined by MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano to break down whether platforms like Suno represent a true growth engine or just another niche product.

We explore the rise of consumer creation, the limits of the “superfan” narrative, and why the future of music revenue may be more fragmented than the industry hopes.


CHAPTERS


02:10 Rise of AI music tools 06:00 The superfan idea 14:30 The superfan landscape 22:30 Suno’s growth 40:00 AI vs. streaming 46:00 Labels and deals 52:00 Streaming’s future

SPONSORS

Symphonic's Women Empowered+ mentorship program. ⁠Apply as a mentor or mentee here⁠.

Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week

Linktree: Share music, sell merch, and connect with fans on one simple link. Linktree is the #1 link in bio tool that musicians and artists use to connect fans to everything they do.



TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

]]> 1955 no Live Nation and DOJ Settled. Now What? The Department of Justice has settled its lawsuit against Live Nation - Ticketmaster. There will be no breakup of the live entertainment company, but Live Nation has agreed to several remedies in an effort to improve the ticketing industry. But more rust that’s settled… what’s next? What will this change? In this episode, we are joined by returning guest and NYU professor Larry Miller to break down the DOJ’s settlement with Live Nation/Ticketmaster. We also dig into the bigger question fans care about most: will this make tickets cheaper? CHAPTERS 04:13 Why Did DOJ Want to Settle? 11:14 Will Ticket Prices Fall? 13:05 Primary vs. Secondary Ticketing Market 22:48 StubHub and SeatGeek’s Challenge 24:56 Live Nation’s Consent Decree SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Linktree: Share music, sell merch, and connect with fans on one simple link. Linktree is the #1 link in bio tool that musicians and artists use to connect fans to everything they do. TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Mon, 16 Mar 2026 10:38:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie The Department of Justice has settled its lawsuit against Live Nation - Ticketmaster. There will be no breakup of the live entertainment company, but Live Nation has agreed to several remedies in an effort to improve the ticketing industry. But more rust that’s settled… what’s next? What will this change? In this episode, we are joined by returning guest and NYU professor Larry Miller to break down the DOJ’s settlement with Live Nation/Ticketmaster. We also dig into the bigger question fans care about most: will this make tickets cheaper? CHAPTERS 04:13 Why Did DOJ Want to Settle? 11:14 Will Ticket Prices Fall? 13:05 Primary vs. Secondary Ticketing Market 22:48 StubHub and SeatGeek’s Challenge 24:56 Live Nation’s Consent Decree SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Linktree: Share music, sell merch, and connect with fans on one simple link. Linktree is the #1 link in bio tool that musicians and artists use to connect fans to everything they do. TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. The Department of Justice has settled its lawsuit against Live Nation - Ticketmaster. There will be no breakup of the live entertainment company, but Live Nation has agreed to several remedies in an effort to improve the ticketing industry. But more rust that’s settled… what’s next? What will this change?


In this episode, we are joined by returning guest and NYU professor Larry Miller to break down the DOJ’s settlement with Live Nation/Ticketmaster.

We also dig into the bigger question fans care about most: will this make tickets cheaper?


CHAPTERS

04:13 Why Did DOJ Want to Settle?

11:14 Will Ticket Prices Fall?

13:05 Primary vs. Secondary Ticketing Market

22:48 StubHub and SeatGeek’s Challenge

24:56 Live Nation’s Consent Decree



SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Linktree: Share music, sell merch, and connect with fans on one simple link. Linktree is the #1 link in bio tool that musicians and artists use to connect fans to everything they do.


TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

]]> 1743 no Private Investors Love Music. Why Doesn’t Wall Street? Investors have poured more money into music than ever before. Music as an asset class if hotter than ever,. But the public markets have discounted the value of music companies: UMG stock is currently trading near its all-time low WMG trades at a discount on its earnings relative to UMG RSVR is going through a takeover attempt Several publicly traded music companies have been taken off the public markets This is a huge disparity, and it was time to explain why. In this solo episode, I break down this paradox. We will also connect the dots to real estate, the post-2021 repricing, and why more take-private attempts may be ahead. CHAPTERS 00:10 Private vs Public Money in Music 07:26 Similarities in Music 08:19 2021 Reset 15:10 WMG and UMG 24:02 What’s Ahead SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Linktree: Share music, sell merch, and connect with fans on one simple link. Linktree is the #1 link in bio tool that musicians and artists use to connect fans to everything they do. TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Mon, 09 Mar 2026 16:59:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie Investors have poured more money into music than ever before. Music as an asset class if hotter than ever,. But the public markets have discounted the value of music companies: UMG stock is currently trading near its all-time low WMG trades at a discount on its earnings relative to UMG RSVR is going through a takeover attempt Several publicly traded music companies have been taken off the public markets This is a huge disparity, and it was time to explain why. In this solo episode, I break down this paradox. We will also connect the dots to real estate, the post-2021 repricing, and why more take-private attempts may be ahead. CHAPTERS 00:10 Private vs Public Money in Music 07:26 Similarities in Music 08:19 2021 Reset 15:10 WMG and UMG 24:02 What’s Ahead SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Linktree: Share music, sell merch, and connect with fans on one simple link. Linktree is the #1 link in bio tool that musicians and artists use to connect fans to everything they do. TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Investors have poured more money into music than ever before. Music as an asset class if hotter than ever,. But the public markets have discounted the value of music companies:

  • UMG stock is currently trading near its all-time low
  • WMG trades at a discount on its earnings relative to UMG
  • RSVR is going through a takeover attempt
  • Several publicly traded music companies have been taken off the public markets

This is a huge disparity, and it was time to explain why.

In this solo episode, I break down this paradox. We will also connect the dots to real estate, the post-2021 repricing, and why more take-private attempts may be ahead.


CHAPTERS

00:10 Private vs Public Money in Music

07:26 Similarities in Music

08:19 2021 Reset

15:10 WMG and UMG

24:02 What’s Ahead


SPONSORS

  • Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week
  • Linktree: Share music, sell merch, and connect with fans on one simple link. Linktree is the #1 link in bio tool that musicians and artists use to connect fans to everything they do.


TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.


]]> 1659 no Trapital: Where Business Meets Culture Mon, 09 Mar 2026 16:56:00 -0000 trailer Dan Runcie 62 no Is The Sphere… A Good Business? Sphere Entertainment is now profitable, Wizard of Oz was a hit, and more locations are coming. Has the business turned the corner, or are there still question marks? In this episode, I’m joined by Tati Cirisano, MIDiA Research, to assess where Sphere Entertainment stands in 2026. We unpack the company’s narrative, scalability, residencies, challenges, and more. CHAPTERS 01:34 Is It Really Profitable? 10:01 The Concert Residency Model 14:58 Sphere Expansion Plans 22:33 Novelty Risk 26:07 Does Sphere Have a Comp? SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Thu, 26 Feb 2026 23:20:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie Sphere Entertainment is now profitable, Wizard of Oz was a hit, and more locations are coming. Has the business turned the corner, or are there still question marks? In this episode, I’m joined by Tati Cirisano, MIDiA Research, to assess where Sphere Entertainment stands in 2026. We unpack the company’s narrative, scalability, residencies, challenges, and more. CHAPTERS 01:34 Is It Really Profitable? 10:01 The Concert Residency Model 14:58 Sphere Expansion Plans 22:33 Novelty Risk 26:07 Does Sphere Have a Comp? SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Sphere Entertainment is now profitable, Wizard of Oz was a hit, and more locations are coming. Has the business turned the corner, or are there still question marks?

In this episode, I’m joined by Tati Cirisano, MIDiA Research, to assess where Sphere Entertainment stands in 2026. We unpack the company’s narrative, scalability, residencies, challenges, and more.


CHAPTERS


01:34 Is It Really Profitable?

10:01 The Concert Residency Model

14:58 Sphere Expansion Plans

22:33 Novelty Risk

26:07 Does Sphere Have a Comp?


SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week


TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

]]> 2118 no Follow The Money: EVEN, Duetti, and The New Deal Stack In music right now, the winners aren’t just the artists with the biggest audiences, they’re the teams that control the infrastructure. First, I sit down with Mag Rodriguez, CEO and co-founder of EVEN, to break down how Even became a key part of J. Cole’s The Fall Off rollout, from exclusive drops and direct-to-fan sales to tour presales and fan community features designed to keep people coming back. Then, I’m joined by Lior Tibon, CEO and co-founder of Duetti, to unpack the financial plumbing behind catalog deals: how Duetti raised $200M, why equity and debt get used differently, and how data, underwriting, and marketing operations power the rights-acquisition machine. CHAPTERS: 04:27 Why J. Cole Uses EVEN 10:16 EVEN-UMG Deal, Explained 16:49 Clearing the Rumors 32:30 Duetti’s Equity vs. Debt Stack 33:34 What a typical Duetti deal looks like 38:38 Catalog Marketing Playbook SPONSORSChartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Linktree: Share music, sell merch, and connect with fans on one simple link. Linktree is the #1 link in bio tool that musicians and artists use to connect fans to everything they do. TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Fri, 20 Feb 2026 11:42:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie In music right now, the winners aren’t just the artists with the biggest audiences, they’re the teams that control the infrastructure. First, I sit down with Mag Rodriguez, CEO and co-founder of EVEN, to break down how Even became a key part of J. Cole’s The Fall Off rollout, from exclusive drops and direct-to-fan sales to tour presales and fan community features designed to keep people coming back. Then, I’m joined by Lior Tibon, CEO and co-founder of Duetti, to unpack the financial plumbing behind catalog deals: how Duetti raised $200M, why equity and debt get used differently, and how data, underwriting, and marketing operations power the rights-acquisition machine. CHAPTERS: 04:27 Why J. Cole Uses EVEN 10:16 EVEN-UMG Deal, Explained 16:49 Clearing the Rumors 32:30 Duetti’s Equity vs. Debt Stack 33:34 What a typical Duetti deal looks like 38:38 Catalog Marketing Playbook SPONSORSChartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Linktree: Share music, sell merch, and connect with fans on one simple link. Linktree is the #1 link in bio tool that musicians and artists use to connect fans to everything they do. TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. In music right now, the winners aren’t just the artists with the biggest audiences, they’re the teams that control the infrastructure.

First, I sit down with Mag Rodriguez, CEO and co-founder of EVEN, to break down how Even became a key part of J. Cole’s The Fall Off rollout, from exclusive drops and direct-to-fan sales to tour presales and fan community features designed to keep people coming back.

Then, I’m joined by Lior Tibon, CEO and co-founder of Duetti, to unpack the financial plumbing behind catalog deals: how Duetti raised $200M, why equity and debt get used differently, and how data, underwriting, and marketing operations power the rights-acquisition machine.


CHAPTERS:

04:27 Why J. Cole Uses EVEN

10:16 EVEN-UMG Deal, Explained

16:49 Clearing the Rumors

32:30 Duetti’s Equity vs. Debt Stack

33:34 What a typical Duetti deal looks like

38:38 Catalog Marketing Playbook


SPONSORSChartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Linktree: Share music, sell merch, and connect with fans on one simple link. Linktree is the #1 link in bio tool that musicians and artists use to connect fans to everything they do.



TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.


]]> 2560 no Why Netflix and Spotify Won in Paid Streaming For the past 20 years, subscription streaming has produced an outcome that still gets overlooked. The category winners weren’t the big tech giants or the major studios. In music, Spotify became the default. In premium video, Netflix did the same. In this episode, we break down how pure-play focus, faster decision-making, and a single retention-driven scoreboard create compounding advantages that big tech’s money and bundling can’t easily copy. CHAPTERS 01:03 Why Spotify and Netflix Succeeded 06:13 Pure-Play Edge 10:36 Speed & Ownership 14:29 Survivorship Reality SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Wed, 11 Feb 2026 12:49:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie For the past 20 years, subscription streaming has produced an outcome that still gets overlooked. The category winners weren’t the big tech giants or the major studios. In music, Spotify became the default. In premium video, Netflix did the same. In this episode, we break down how pure-play focus, faster decision-making, and a single retention-driven scoreboard create compounding advantages that big tech’s money and bundling can’t easily copy. CHAPTERS 01:03 Why Spotify and Netflix Succeeded 06:13 Pure-Play Edge 10:36 Speed & Ownership 14:29 Survivorship Reality SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. For the past 20 years, subscription streaming has produced an outcome that still gets overlooked. The category winners weren’t the big tech giants or the major studios. In music, Spotify became the default. In premium video, Netflix did the same.

In this episode, we break down how pure-play focus, faster decision-making, and a single retention-driven scoreboard create compounding advantages that big tech’s money and bundling can’t easily copy.


CHAPTERS

01:03 Why Spotify and Netflix Succeeded

06:13 Pure-Play Edge

10:36 Speed & Ownership

14:29 Survivorship Reality


SPONSORS

Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Symphonic: Distribute your music to one of the largest networks in the industry. Symphonic delivers your music to over 200 digital service providers ensuring that you’re monetizing every stream and use of your music on Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, and more


TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.


]]> 1581 no Inside Grammy Week: Galas, Deal Rooms, and “The Two Grammys” We just came back from the 68th Grammy Awards. I am joined by Tati Cirisano of MIDiA Research break down what it’s actually like to the experience the Grammys up close from industry events and late-night conversations to crossing paths with artists, executives, and power players shaping the music business. We unpack standout performances, unexpected moments, and how attending the show in person is different from watching at home. CHAPTERS 01:43 Bad Bunny’s Big Night 05:11 The Grammys In Person vs. On TV 08:36 Lauryn Hill 10:07 Cher on Stage 14:02 Polymarket and the Grammys 20:39 Grammy Week 25:19 Big Changes Next Year SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Wed, 04 Feb 2026 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie We just came back from the 68th Grammy Awards. I am joined by Tati Cirisano of MIDiA Research break down what it’s actually like to the experience the Grammys up close from industry events and late-night conversations to crossing paths with artists, executives, and power players shaping the music business. We unpack standout performances, unexpected moments, and how attending the show in person is different from watching at home. CHAPTERS 01:43 Bad Bunny’s Big Night 05:11 The Grammys In Person vs. On TV 08:36 Lauryn Hill 10:07 Cher on Stage 14:02 Polymarket and the Grammys 20:39 Grammy Week 25:19 Big Changes Next Year SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. We just came back from the 68th Grammy Awards. I am joined by Tati Cirisano of MIDiA Research break down what it’s actually like to the experience the Grammys up close from industry events and late-night conversations to crossing paths with artists, executives, and power players shaping the music business. We unpack standout performances, unexpected moments, and how attending the show in person is different from watching at home.


CHAPTERS


01:43 Bad Bunny’s Big Night

05:11 The Grammys In Person vs. On TV

08:36 Lauryn Hill

10:07 Cher on Stage

14:02 Polymarket and the Grammys

20:39 Grammy Week

25:19 Big Changes Next Year


SPONSORS

Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week


TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

]]> 2307 no Can YouTube Have It All? YouTube is the biggest TV, music, and video platform in the world, but it’s not satisfied. The company still wants to compete for the dollars that go to traditional TV. But can YouTube have it all? In this episode, we examine YouTube’s push into the living room, from securing the NFL Sunday Ticket to becoming the exclusive home of the Oscars starting in 2029. But as YouTube chases TV legitimacy and higher profit margins, it faces a core tension: how can it get there without losing the creator-driven ethos that made it dominant. We break down YouTube’s battle for short-form dominance, where YouTube TV fits in, and what its evolving strategy reveals about the future of media, creators, and global attention. CHAPTERS 02:12 YouTube’s Ambition 04:59 YouTube vs TikTok 10:04 YouTube TV 13:16 Future of YouTube SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Fri, 23 Jan 2026 14:36:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie YouTube is the biggest TV, music, and video platform in the world, but it’s not satisfied. The company still wants to compete for the dollars that go to traditional TV. But can YouTube have it all? In this episode, we examine YouTube’s push into the living room, from securing the NFL Sunday Ticket to becoming the exclusive home of the Oscars starting in 2029. But as YouTube chases TV legitimacy and higher profit margins, it faces a core tension: how can it get there without losing the creator-driven ethos that made it dominant. We break down YouTube’s battle for short-form dominance, where YouTube TV fits in, and what its evolving strategy reveals about the future of media, creators, and global attention. CHAPTERS 02:12 YouTube’s Ambition 04:59 YouTube vs TikTok 10:04 YouTube TV 13:16 Future of YouTube SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

YouTube is the biggest TV, music, and video platform in the world, but it’s not satisfied. The company still wants to compete for the dollars that go to traditional TV. But can YouTube have it all?

In this episode, we examine YouTube’s push into the living room, from securing the NFL Sunday Ticket to becoming the exclusive home of the Oscars starting in 2029. But as YouTube chases TV legitimacy and higher profit margins, it faces a core tension: how can it get there without losing the creator-driven ethos that made it dominant.

We break down YouTube’s battle for short-form dominance, where YouTube TV fits in, and what its evolving strategy reveals about the future of media, creators, and global attention.


CHAPTERS

02:12 YouTube’s Ambition

04:59 YouTube vs TikTok

10:04 YouTube TV

13:16 Future of YouTube


SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week



TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

]]> 1139 no The Rise of Reels: Meta’s $50B Ad Machine Meta’s short-form video surface, Reels, now generates $50 billion in annual run rate. That’s more than some of the largest media companies like Netflix, TikTok, and YouTube’s ad business. Reels may be less culturally relevant than those companies, and its users spend less time on the platform than others, but it prints money and shows no signs of slowing down. This episode explores how Meta’s infrastructure made Reels one of the most successful monetization plays in modern tech and what could threaten its momentum next. CHAPTERS 02:51 Culture vs. Cash 04:30 How Reels Makes Money 06:49 Meta’s Advantage 15:34 Risks Ahead 18:54 What’s Next for Reels SPONSORSChartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Linktree: Help your followers discover everything you do, with one simple link. Use code TRAPITAL50 for a discount TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Thu, 15 Jan 2026 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie Meta’s short-form video surface, Reels, now generates $50 billion in annual run rate. That’s more than some of the largest media companies like Netflix, TikTok, and YouTube’s ad business. Reels may be less culturally relevant than those companies, and its users spend less time on the platform than others, but it prints money and shows no signs of slowing down. This episode explores how Meta’s infrastructure made Reels one of the most successful monetization plays in modern tech and what could threaten its momentum next. CHAPTERS 02:51 Culture vs. Cash 04:30 How Reels Makes Money 06:49 Meta’s Advantage 15:34 Risks Ahead 18:54 What’s Next for Reels SPONSORSChartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Linktree: Help your followers discover everything you do, with one simple link. Use code TRAPITAL50 for a discount TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

Meta’s short-form video surface, Reels, now generates $50 billion in annual run rate. That’s more than some of the largest media companies like Netflix, TikTok, and YouTube’s ad business.

Reels may be less culturally relevant than those companies, and its users spend less time on the platform than others, but it prints money and shows no signs of slowing down.

This episode explores how Meta’s infrastructure made Reels one of the most successful monetization plays in modern tech and what could threaten its momentum next.


CHAPTERS

02:51 Culture vs. Cash

04:30 How Reels Makes Money

06:49 Meta’s Advantage

15:34 Risks Ahead

18:54 What’s Next for Reels


SPONSORSChartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week

Linktree: Help your followers discover everything you do, with one simple link. Use code TRAPITAL50 for a discount


TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.


]]> 1378 no Music is a $47 Billion Industry. Why Isn’t It Bigger? In this episode, we sit down with Will Page, economist and author of Pivot, for a deep dive on the global economics of music. Using Will’s latest Global Value of Music Copyright Report, we explore streaming economics, global market gaps, AI, and where the music industry’s next phase of growth may come from. CHAPTERS 02:45 Global Value of Music: 10 Years in Review 11:24 Emerging Music Markets 13:37 Africa’s Music Economy 18:11 Brazil’s Music Market 21:12 The Crocodile Smile 33:18 AI and Music’s Future SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week beatBread: Smarter choices. Better deals. GUEST Will Page, former Chief Economist of Spotify and PRS for Music, Author of Pivot LINKS Global Value of Music Copyright - Will Page TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Tue, 23 Dec 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie In this episode, we sit down with Will Page, economist and author of Pivot, for a deep dive on the global economics of music. Using Will’s latest Global Value of Music Copyright Report, we explore streaming economics, global market gaps, AI, and where the music industry’s next phase of growth may come from. CHAPTERS 02:45 Global Value of Music: 10 Years in Review 11:24 Emerging Music Markets 13:37 Africa’s Music Economy 18:11 Brazil’s Music Market 21:12 The Crocodile Smile 33:18 AI and Music’s Future SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week beatBread: Smarter choices. Better deals. GUEST Will Page, former Chief Economist of Spotify and PRS for Music, Author of Pivot LINKS Global Value of Music Copyright - Will Page TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. In this episode, we sit down with Will Page, economist and author of Pivot, for a deep dive on the global economics of music. Using Will’s latest Global Value of Music Copyright Report, we explore streaming economics, global market gaps, AI, and where the music industry’s next phase of growth may come from.


CHAPTERS

02:45 Global Value of Music: 10 Years in Review 11:24 Emerging Music Markets 13:37 Africa’s Music Economy 18:11 Brazil’s Music Market 21:12 The Crocodile Smile 33:18 AI and Music’s Future


SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week

beatBread: Smarter choices. Better deals.


GUEST

Will Page, former Chief Economist of Spotify and PRS for Music, Author of Pivot


LINKS

Global Value of Music Copyright - Will Page


TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

]]> 2118 no Polymarket and Kalshi: Financial Tools or Casinos? Prediction markets like Polymarket and Kalshi have had a big year in 2025, but what are they really? Securities? Derivatives? Sportsbooks? They may be all of the above. Listen to my breakdown on how these markets have evolved over time, and what led to their current rise today. We then dive into the opportunities, risks, and the regulatory challenges that may shape their future. CHAPTERS 02:54 The Origin of Prediction Markets 06:43 Polymarket, Kalshi, and Modern Prediction Markets 09:16 Regulation and What’s Next 09:31 Bucket A: Policy, Finance, and Economics 13:36 Bucket B: Sports, Entertainment, and Pop Culture SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Too Lost: empowering artists with tools to manage, distribute, and grow their music independently. TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Fri, 12 Dec 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie Prediction markets like Polymarket and Kalshi have had a big year in 2025, but what are they really? Securities? Derivatives? Sportsbooks? They may be all of the above. Listen to my breakdown on how these markets have evolved over time, and what led to their current rise today. We then dive into the opportunities, risks, and the regulatory challenges that may shape their future. CHAPTERS 02:54 The Origin of Prediction Markets 06:43 Polymarket, Kalshi, and Modern Prediction Markets 09:16 Regulation and What’s Next 09:31 Bucket A: Policy, Finance, and Economics 13:36 Bucket B: Sports, Entertainment, and Pop Culture SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Too Lost: empowering artists with tools to manage, distribute, and grow their music independently. TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Prediction markets like Polymarket and Kalshi have had a big year in 2025, but what are they really? Securities? Derivatives? Sportsbooks? They may be all of the above.

Listen to my breakdown on how these markets have evolved over time, and what led to their current rise today. We then dive into the opportunities, risks, and the regulatory challenges that may shape their future.



CHAPTERS

02:54 The Origin of Prediction Markets

06:43 Polymarket, Kalshi, and Modern Prediction Markets

09:16 Regulation and What’s Next

09:31 Bucket A: Policy, Finance, and Economics

13:36 Bucket B: Sports, Entertainment, and Pop Culture



SPONSORS

Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week

Too Lost: empowering artists with tools to manage, distribute, and grow their music independently.



TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

]]> 1553 no How MTV Lost Its Way People say they miss when MTV played music videos, but their viewing habits say otherwise! We revisited one of our most popular episodes from 2023, but trimmed it down to include the best parts. I’m joined by Zack O’Malley Greenburg to unpack MTV’s rise from a scrappy video platform to a cultural powerhouse. We break down breakthrough moments like Michael Jackson’s “Billie Jean”, the rise of reality TV, the networks influence, rise, fall, and what’s next? CHAPTERS 01:04 The Birth of MTV 04:45 MTV's Business Model 13:01 Cultural Impact of Influence 21:28 Rise of Reality TV 29:59 MTV ‘s Decline SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week beatBread : A music funding platform that empowers independent artists to access advances on their streaming income while keeping 100% ownership of their music. Splice, a cloud-based music creation platform offering millions of royalty-free samples, plugins (via rent-to-own), and AI-powered tools to inspire creators everywhere GUEST Zack O’Malley Greenburg, Author, Empire State of Mind TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Fri, 05 Dec 2025 11:35:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie People say they miss when MTV played music videos, but their viewing habits say otherwise! We revisited one of our most popular episodes from 2023, but trimmed it down to include the best parts. I’m joined by Zack O’Malley Greenburg to unpack MTV’s rise from a scrappy video platform to a cultural powerhouse. We break down breakthrough moments like Michael Jackson’s “Billie Jean”, the rise of reality TV, the networks influence, rise, fall, and what’s next? CHAPTERS 01:04 The Birth of MTV 04:45 MTV's Business Model 13:01 Cultural Impact of Influence 21:28 Rise of Reality TV 29:59 MTV ‘s Decline SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week beatBread : A music funding platform that empowers independent artists to access advances on their streaming income while keeping 100% ownership of their music. Splice, a cloud-based music creation platform offering millions of royalty-free samples, plugins (via rent-to-own), and AI-powered tools to inspire creators everywhere GUEST Zack O’Malley Greenburg, Author, Empire State of Mind TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. People say they miss when MTV played music videos, but their viewing habits say otherwise!

We revisited one of our most popular episodes from 2023, but trimmed it down to include the best parts. I’m joined by Zack O’Malley Greenburg to unpack MTV’s rise from a scrappy video platform to a cultural powerhouse. We break down breakthrough moments like Michael Jackson’s “Billie Jean”, the rise of reality TV, the networks influence, rise, fall, and what’s next?

CHAPTERS

01:04 The Birth of MTV 04:45 MTV's Business Model 13:01 Cultural Impact of Influence 21:28 Rise of Reality TV 29:59 MTV ‘s Decline


SPONSORS

Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week


beatBread : A music funding platform that empowers independent artists to access advances on their streaming income while keeping 100% ownership of their music.


Splice, a cloud-based music creation platform offering millions of royalty-free samples, plugins (via rent-to-own), and AI-powered tools to inspire creators everywhere


GUEST

Zack O’Malley Greenburg, Author, Empire State of Mind


TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

]]> 3062 no Five Bold Predictions: Netflix and Spotify, AI-Powered Industry, The Big 3’s Future, and More We continue our Trapital Summit series with Dan and MiDIA Research’s Tati Cirisano sharing bold predictions from Trapital Summit attendees and sharing their thoughts. We debate the long-term viability of major record labels, whether a Netflix + Spotify merger make sense (we recorded this before the podcast partnership!), we also discussed whether we’ll return to mass mainstream monoculture, future growth opportunities, and which new opportunities will be unlocked by AI-powered tools. CHAPTERS 01:47 Future of Major Labels? 03:58 Will Netflix and Spotify Ever Merge? 05:52 A Return to Monoculture? 09:06 Unprecedented Industry Growth? 10:30 Will AI-Driven Labels Be The Future? SPONSORS Splice: Splice Instrument is here. Real instruments, meticulously crafted, and authentically crafted Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week GUEST Tatiana Cirisano, VP Music Strategy, MIDiA Research TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. Thu, 20 Nov 2025 11:20:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie We continue our Trapital Summit series with Dan and MiDIA Research’s Tati Cirisano sharing bold predictions from Trapital Summit attendees and sharing their thoughts. We debate the long-term viability of major record labels, whether a Netflix + Spotify merger make sense (we recorded this before the podcast partnership!), we also discussed whether we’ll return to mass mainstream monoculture, future growth opportunities, and which new opportunities will be unlocked by AI-powered tools. CHAPTERS 01:47 Future of Major Labels? 03:58 Will Netflix and Spotify Ever Merge? 05:52 A Return to Monoculture? 09:06 Unprecedented Industry Growth? 10:30 Will AI-Driven Labels Be The Future? SPONSORS Splice: Splice Instrument is here. Real instruments, meticulously crafted, and authentically crafted Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week GUEST Tatiana Cirisano, VP Music Strategy, MIDiA Research TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. We continue our Trapital Summit series with Dan and MiDIA Research’s Tati Cirisano sharing bold predictions from Trapital Summit attendees and sharing their thoughts.

We debate the long-term viability of major record labels, whether a Netflix + Spotify merger make sense (we recorded this before the podcast partnership!), we also discussed whether we’ll return to mass mainstream monoculture, future growth opportunities, and which new opportunities will be unlocked by AI-powered tools.


CHAPTERS

01:47 Future of Major Labels?

03:58 Will Netflix and Spotify Ever Merge?

05:52 A Return to Monoculture?

09:06 Unprecedented Industry Growth?

10:30 Will AI-Driven Labels Be The Future?


SPONSORS

Splice: Splice Instrument is here. Real instruments, meticulously crafted, and authentically crafted

Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week


GUEST

Tatiana Cirisano, VP Music Strategy, MIDiA Research


TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.

]]> 945 no What's a Grammy Worth? New Voters, New Winners, and Rewriting History This episode is in partnership and collaboration with our friends at The Recording Academy You’ll hear our deep dive on what we can learn from this years Grammys with our usual analysis and a few select guests including: Panos Panay (President of The Recording Academy), Tati Cirisano (MIDiA Research), Zack O’Malley Greenburg, author and investor. We discuss the biggest takeaways from the 2026 nominations, the rise of international music, how the voting body has evolved, and the economic lift of a Grammy win. CHAPTERS 01:41 - Biggest takeaways 05:41 - Tati Cirisano joins us 13:02 - Panos Panay joins us 17:10 - Which past Grammys would have changed 21:52 - The Grammy Bump 33:10 - Zack Greenburg joins us SPONSORS The Recording Academy Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Tidal: Win $100k with the Tidal Upload Contest GUESTS Panos Panay, President, The Recording Academy Tatiana Cirisano, VP Music Strategy, MIDiA Research Zack O’Malley Greenburg, Author, Empire State of Mind TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. RESOURCES What is the Economic Value of a GRAMMY in Today’s Industry? - Chartmetric and Will Page Thu, 13 Nov 2025 11:09:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie This episode is in partnership and collaboration with our friends at The Recording Academy You’ll hear our deep dive on what we can learn from this years Grammys with our usual analysis and a few select guests including: Panos Panay (President of The Recording Academy), Tati Cirisano (MIDiA Research), Zack O’Malley Greenburg, author and investor. We discuss the biggest takeaways from the 2026 nominations, the rise of international music, how the voting body has evolved, and the economic lift of a Grammy win. CHAPTERS 01:41 - Biggest takeaways 05:41 - Tati Cirisano joins us 13:02 - Panos Panay joins us 17:10 - Which past Grammys would have changed 21:52 - The Grammy Bump 33:10 - Zack Greenburg joins us SPONSORS The Recording Academy Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Tidal: Win $100k with the Tidal Upload Contest GUESTS Panos Panay, President, The Recording Academy Tatiana Cirisano, VP Music Strategy, MIDiA Research Zack O’Malley Greenburg, Author, Empire State of Mind TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free. RESOURCES What is the Economic Value of a GRAMMY in Today’s Industry? - Chartmetric and Will Page This episode is in partnership and collaboration with our friends at The Recording Academy

You’ll hear our deep dive on what we can learn from this years Grammys with our usual analysis and a few select guests including: Panos Panay (President of The Recording Academy), Tati Cirisano (MIDiA Research), Zack O’Malley Greenburg, author and investor.

We discuss the biggest takeaways from the 2026 nominations, the rise of international music, how the voting body has evolved, and the economic lift of a Grammy win.

CHAPTERS

01:41 - Biggest takeaways

05:41 - Tati Cirisano joins us

13:02 - Panos Panay joins us

17:10 - Which past Grammys would have changed

21:52 - The Grammy Bump

33:10 - Zack Greenburg joins us

SPONSORS

The Recording Academy Chartmetric: Listen in for our Stat of the Week Tidal: Win $100k with the Tidal Upload Contest


GUESTS Panos Panay, President, The Recording Academy

Tatiana Cirisano, VP Music Strategy, MIDiA Research

Zack O’Malley Greenburg, Author, Empire State of Mind



TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Sign up here for free.


RESOURCES What is the Economic Value of a GRAMMY in Today’s Industry? - Chartmetric and Will Page

]]> 2288 no Building Businesses Around Artists with Firebird Music CEO Nathan Hubbard At our Trapital Summit, Nathan Hubbard joined me in stage to discuss Firebird Music’s investment thesis, working with Yungblud, and the business of Taylor Swift. CHAPTERS 04:06 Firebird’s Mission 06:46 Yungblud’s Case Study 14:16 Investing in Management Companies 21:03 Finding New Talent 23:34 Is Taylor Swift the Best CEO in Music? SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Splice: Learn more about Splice’s brand new virtual INSTRUMENT LINKS & SOURCES ⁠Trapital newsletter⁠⁠ Trapital Summit 2025⁠ Guests: Nathan Hubbard, ⁠Firebird Music⁠⁠ Every Single Album⁠ Podcast TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. Thu, 06 Nov 2025 16:55:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie At our Trapital Summit, Nathan Hubbard joined me in stage to discuss Firebird Music’s investment thesis, working with Yungblud, and the business of Taylor Swift. CHAPTERS 04:06 Firebird’s Mission 06:46 Yungblud’s Case Study 14:16 Investing in Management Companies 21:03 Finding New Talent 23:34 Is Taylor Swift the Best CEO in Music? SPONSORS Chartmetric: Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Splice: Learn more about Splice’s brand new virtual INSTRUMENT LINKS & SOURCES ⁠Trapital newsletter⁠⁠ Trapital Summit 2025⁠ Guests: Nathan Hubbard, ⁠Firebird Music⁠⁠ Every Single Album⁠ Podcast TRAPITAL Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week. At our Trapital Summit, Nathan Hubbard joined me in stage to discuss Firebird Music’s investment thesis, working with Yungblud, and the business of Taylor Swift.


CHAPTERS

04:06 Firebird’s Mission

06:46 Yungblud’s Case Study

14:16 Investing in Management Companies

21:03 Finding New Talent

23:34 Is Taylor Swift the Best CEO in Music?

SPONSORS

Chartmetric: Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Splice: Learn more about Splice’s brand new virtual INSTRUMENT

LINKS & SOURCES ⁠Trapital newsletter⁠⁠

Trapital Summit 2025⁠ Guests: Nathan Hubbard, ⁠Firebird Music⁠⁠

Every Single Album⁠ Podcast

TRAPITAL

Where technology shapes culture. New episodes and memos every week.



]]> 1552 no Investing in Music Rights with Shamrock Capital’s Jason Sklar We continue our Trapital Summit series with Jason Sklar, a partner at Shamrock Capital, to explore music rights as an asset class, as well as gaming, film, and more. We discuss Shamrock’s perspective, market trends, valuation approaches, the role of AI, and cross-industry opportunities. 02:27 State of Music Rights Investing 09:37 Shamrock’s Investment Approach 16:01 AI, Gaming, and Music 19:39 Why Investing in Film is a B2B Business 20:13 What’s Next for Catalog Deals This episode is brought to you by SoundCloud for Artists, the all-in-one platform that empowers artists to distribute music, grow their audience, and get paid directly. From uploads to insights, SoundCloud helps creators take control of their careers. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Thu, 30 Oct 2025 11:19:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie We continue our Trapital Summit series with Jason Sklar, a partner at Shamrock Capital, to explore music rights as an asset class, as well as gaming, film, and more. We discuss Shamrock’s perspective, market trends, valuation approaches, the role of AI, and cross-industry opportunities. 02:27 State of Music Rights Investing 09:37 Shamrock’s Investment Approach 16:01 AI, Gaming, and Music 19:39 Why Investing in Film is a B2B Business 20:13 What’s Next for Catalog Deals This episode is brought to you by SoundCloud for Artists, the all-in-one platform that empowers artists to distribute music, grow their audience, and get paid directly. From uploads to insights, SoundCloud helps creators take control of their careers. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. We continue our Trapital Summit series with Jason Sklar, a partner at Shamrock Capital, to explore music rights as an asset class, as well as gaming, film, and more. We discuss Shamrock’s perspective, market trends, valuation approaches, the role of AI, and cross-industry opportunities.


02:27 State of Music Rights Investing

09:37 Shamrock’s Investment Approach

16:01 AI, Gaming, and Music

19:39 Why Investing in Film is a B2B Business

20:13 What’s Next for Catalog Deals

This episode is brought to you by SoundCloud for Artists, the all-in-one platform that empowers artists to distribute music, grow their audience, and get paid directly.

From uploads to insights, SoundCloud helps creators take control of their careers.


Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.



]]> 1541 no Udio CEO Andrew Sanchez on AI’s Future in Music We continued our Trapital Summit series with our talk with Udio CEO Andrew Sanchez and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano. AI is rapidly transforming how music is created, distributed, and experienced. You’ll hear them unpack the challenges and opportunities shaping this new era of sound. From redefining creativity to fostering trust between artists and technology, we explore how collaboration, ethics, and innovation can drive a more equitable and inspiring future for the music industry. 03:36 AI Music: Trends and Future 08:11 What Sets Udio Apart 14:06 Trust and Fair Use in AI 21:19 Future Vision and Rapid Fire This episode is brought to you by Laylo, a platform built for artists, creators, and live-event teams that helps turn shows into fandom. Laylo powers drops, tour campaigns, fan lists, SMS & DM outreach, and more to grow engagement and enable deeper connections. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Thu, 23 Oct 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie We continued our Trapital Summit series with our talk with Udio CEO Andrew Sanchez and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano. AI is rapidly transforming how music is created, distributed, and experienced. You’ll hear them unpack the challenges and opportunities shaping this new era of sound. From redefining creativity to fostering trust between artists and technology, we explore how collaboration, ethics, and innovation can drive a more equitable and inspiring future for the music industry. 03:36 AI Music: Trends and Future 08:11 What Sets Udio Apart 14:06 Trust and Fair Use in AI 21:19 Future Vision and Rapid Fire This episode is brought to you by Laylo, a platform built for artists, creators, and live-event teams that helps turn shows into fandom. Laylo powers drops, tour campaigns, fan lists, SMS & DM outreach, and more to grow engagement and enable deeper connections. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. We continued our Trapital Summit series with our talk with Udio CEO Andrew Sanchez and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano. AI is rapidly transforming how music is created, distributed, and experienced. You’ll hear them unpack the challenges and opportunities shaping this new era of sound. From redefining creativity to fostering trust between artists and technology, we explore how collaboration, ethics, and innovation can drive a more equitable and inspiring future for the music industry.


03:36 AI Music: Trends and Future

08:11 What Sets Udio Apart

14:06 Trust and Fair Use in AI

21:19 Future Vision and Rapid Fire


This episode is brought to you by Laylo, a platform built for artists, creators, and live-event teams that helps turn shows into fandom. Laylo powers drops, tour campaigns, fan lists, SMS & DM outreach, and more to grow engagement and enable deeper connections.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 1684 no Steve Pamon on How to Create Moments That Matter At the Trapital Summit, we were joined by the CEO of VERZUZ, Steve Pamon. His career is all about turning events into big moments, from his time at McKinsey, HBO, NFL, WWE, IMAX, and more. We discussed how major shows scale into franchises, covering team execution, fan value, storytelling, and lessons from Beyoncé, Roger Goodell, and more. 03:50 Story and Execution in Live Events 09:49 Music Industry Challenges 16:23 WWE and IMAX Takeaways 24:02 What’s Next for Verzuz This episode is brought to you by Laylo, a platform built for artists, creators, and live-event teams that helps turn shows into fandom. Laylo powers drops, tour campaigns, fan lists, SMS & DM outreach, and more to grow engagement and enable deeper connections. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Thu, 16 Oct 2025 10:45:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie At the Trapital Summit, we were joined by the CEO of VERZUZ, Steve Pamon. His career is all about turning events into big moments, from his time at McKinsey, HBO, NFL, WWE, IMAX, and more. We discussed how major shows scale into franchises, covering team execution, fan value, storytelling, and lessons from Beyoncé, Roger Goodell, and more. 03:50 Story and Execution in Live Events 09:49 Music Industry Challenges 16:23 WWE and IMAX Takeaways 24:02 What’s Next for Verzuz This episode is brought to you by Laylo, a platform built for artists, creators, and live-event teams that helps turn shows into fandom. Laylo powers drops, tour campaigns, fan lists, SMS & DM outreach, and more to grow engagement and enable deeper connections. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. At the Trapital Summit, we were joined by the CEO of VERZUZ, Steve Pamon. His career is all about turning events into big moments, from his time at McKinsey, HBO, NFL, WWE, IMAX, and more. We discussed how major shows scale into franchises, covering team execution, fan value, storytelling, and lessons from Beyoncé, Roger Goodell, and more.


03:50 Story and Execution in Live Events

09:49 Music Industry Challenges

16:23 WWE and IMAX Takeaways

24:02 What’s Next for Verzuz


This episode is brought to you by Laylo, a platform built for artists, creators, and live-event teams that helps turn shows into fandom. Laylo powers drops, tour campaigns, fan lists, SMS & DM outreach, and more to grow engagement and enable deeper connections.


Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 1665 Andreea Gleeson on TuneCore’s Next Chapter We’re continuing our Trapital Summit series with TuneCore CEO Andreea Gleeson. You’ll hear her and Billboard’s Taylor Mims discuss how TuneCore empowers artists worldwide, how indie artists break through the noise, successes, challenges, and more. 03:48 Wins and Milestones 09:55 Superfans Opportunities 12:57 Future Tools for TuneCore Artists 15:33 Indie Artist Trends This episode is brought to you by beatBread a music funding platform that empowers independent artists to access advances on their streaming income while keeping 100% ownership of their music. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Thu, 09 Oct 2025 16:20:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie We’re continuing our Trapital Summit series with TuneCore CEO Andreea Gleeson. You’ll hear her and Billboard’s Taylor Mims discuss how TuneCore empowers artists worldwide, how indie artists break through the noise, successes, challenges, and more. 03:48 Wins and Milestones 09:55 Superfans Opportunities 12:57 Future Tools for TuneCore Artists 15:33 Indie Artist Trends This episode is brought to you by beatBread a music funding platform that empowers independent artists to access advances on their streaming income while keeping 100% ownership of their music. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. We’re continuing our Trapital Summit series with TuneCore CEO Andreea Gleeson. You’ll hear her and Billboard’s Taylor Mims discuss how TuneCore empowers artists worldwide, how indie artists break through the noise, successes, challenges, and more.


03:48 Wins and Milestones

09:55 Superfans Opportunities

12:57 Future Tools for TuneCore Artists

15:33 Indie Artist Trends



This episode is brought to you by beatBread a music funding platform that empowers independent artists to access advances on their streaming income while keeping 100% ownership of their music.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 1391 no Kakul Srivastava on Why Splice Acquired Spitfire Audio We’re continuing our Trapital Summit series. In this episode, we’re with Kakul Srivastava, CEO of Splice, to discuss how technology is reshaping music. From Splice’s acquisition of Spitfire Audio to the rise of AI-powered tools, we explore innovation, M&A lessons learned, and more. 03:51 Acquiring Spitfire Audio 10:24 Product and Data-Driven Growth 16:47 Royalty-Free Tradeoffs 20:22 Future of AI This episode is brought to you by Splice, a cloud-based music creation platform offering millions of royalty-free samples, plugins (via rent-to-own), and AI-powered tools to inspire creators everywhere Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Thu, 02 Oct 2025 11:03:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie We’re continuing our Trapital Summit series. In this episode, we’re with Kakul Srivastava, CEO of Splice, to discuss how technology is reshaping music. From Splice’s acquisition of Spitfire Audio to the rise of AI-powered tools, we explore innovation, M&A lessons learned, and more. 03:51 Acquiring Spitfire Audio 10:24 Product and Data-Driven Growth 16:47 Royalty-Free Tradeoffs 20:22 Future of AI This episode is brought to you by Splice, a cloud-based music creation platform offering millions of royalty-free samples, plugins (via rent-to-own), and AI-powered tools to inspire creators everywhere Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. We’re continuing our Trapital Summit series. In this episode, we’re with Kakul Srivastava, CEO of Splice, to discuss how technology is reshaping music. From Splice’s acquisition of Spitfire Audio to the rise of AI-powered tools, we explore innovation, M&A lessons learned, and more.


03:51 Acquiring Spitfire Audio

10:24 Product and Data-Driven Growth

16:47 Royalty-Free Tradeoffs

20:22 Future of AI


This episode is brought to you by Splice, a cloud-based music creation platform offering millions of royalty-free samples, plugins (via rent-to-own), and AI-powered tools to inspire creators everywhere

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.


]]> 1434 no Oliver Schusser on Apple’s Strategy in Music, AI’s Potential, and the Super Bowl Halftime Show We’re continuing our Trapital Summit recap series. In today’s episode, you’ll hear my conversation with Oliver Schusser, VP of Apple Music and International Content, to explore Apple’s journey in music. We dive into the state of music streaming, AI ‘s impact , and Apple’s partnerships in sports and live content. 02:46 From iTunes to Apple Music 01:39 Focusing on Music 08:41 Apple Music Growth and Subscribers 11:40 AI 14:49 Halftime Show, MLB, MLS and more This episode is presented by TooLost, a platform empowering artists with tools to manage, distribute, and grow their music independently. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Thu, 25 Sep 2025 10:28:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie We’re continuing our Trapital Summit recap series. In today’s episode, you’ll hear my conversation with Oliver Schusser, VP of Apple Music and International Content, to explore Apple’s journey in music. We dive into the state of music streaming, AI ‘s impact , and Apple’s partnerships in sports and live content. 02:46 From iTunes to Apple Music 01:39 Focusing on Music 08:41 Apple Music Growth and Subscribers 11:40 AI 14:49 Halftime Show, MLB, MLS and more This episode is presented by TooLost, a platform empowering artists with tools to manage, distribute, and grow their music independently. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. We’re continuing our Trapital Summit recap series. In today’s episode, you’ll hear my conversation with Oliver Schusser, VP of Apple Music and International Content, to explore Apple’s journey in music. We dive into the state of music streaming, AI ‘s impact , and Apple’s partnerships in sports and live content.


02:46 From iTunes to Apple Music

01:39 Focusing on Music

08:41 Apple Music Growth and Subscribers

11:40 AI

14:49 Halftime Show, MLB, MLS and more


This episode is presented by TooLost, a platform empowering artists with tools to manage, distribute, and grow their music independently.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 1417 no Elliot Grainge on Atlantic’s Future, AI, and Selling 10K Projects We’re kicking off our Trapital Summit recap series. In today’s episode, you’ll hear my conversation with Elliot Grainge, CEO of Atlantic Music Group. This was Elliot’s first public talk since becoming CEO in October 2024. We discuss his response to the fanfare around the Warner Music Group transition, Elliot’s experience selling 10K Projects, and adapting the 10K playbook for superstars like Bruno Mars and Ed Sheeran. We dig into Elliot’s view on leadership, entrepreneurship, and the future of AI. 02:41 The New CEO 03:44 Selling 10K Projects 09:35 Adapting 10K Playbook to Established Stars 14:08 The AI Generation Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Thu, 18 Sep 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie We’re kicking off our Trapital Summit recap series. In today’s episode, you’ll hear my conversation with Elliot Grainge, CEO of Atlantic Music Group. This was Elliot’s first public talk since becoming CEO in October 2024. We discuss his response to the fanfare around the Warner Music Group transition, Elliot’s experience selling 10K Projects, and adapting the 10K playbook for superstars like Bruno Mars and Ed Sheeran. We dig into Elliot’s view on leadership, entrepreneurship, and the future of AI. 02:41 The New CEO 03:44 Selling 10K Projects 09:35 Adapting 10K Playbook to Established Stars 14:08 The AI Generation Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. We’re kicking off our Trapital Summit recap series. In today’s episode, you’ll hear my conversation with Elliot Grainge, CEO of Atlantic Music Group.

This was Elliot’s first public talk since becoming CEO in October 2024.

We discuss his response to the fanfare around the Warner Music Group transition, Elliot’s experience selling 10K Projects, and adapting the 10K playbook for superstars like Bruno Mars and Ed Sheeran. We dig into Elliot’s view on leadership, entrepreneurship, and the future of AI.


02:41 The New CEO

03:44 Selling 10K Projects

09:35 Adapting 10K Playbook to Established Stars

14:08 The AI Generation


Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 1201 no Trapital Summit Recap: Venue Surprise, Highlights, and Behind the Scenes Moments In this episode, we take you behind the scenes of last week’s second annual Trapital Summit. Listen to me and Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research break down what went into the event. From the NeueHouse bankruptcy to speaker selection, key moments, feedback from guests, curating the right room, and plenty more. 01:13 A Last-Minute Surprise 09:40 Curating the Room 12:05 Programming Decisions 25:45 AI and Industry Trends 36:43 2026 Summit Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Mon, 15 Sep 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie In this episode, we take you behind the scenes of last week’s second annual Trapital Summit. Listen to me and Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research break down what went into the event. From the NeueHouse bankruptcy to speaker selection, key moments, feedback from guests, curating the right room, and plenty more. 01:13 A Last-Minute Surprise 09:40 Curating the Room 12:05 Programming Decisions 25:45 AI and Industry Trends 36:43 2026 Summit Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. In this episode, we take you behind the scenes of last week’s second annual Trapital Summit.

Listen to me and Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research break down what went into the event. From the NeueHouse bankruptcy to speaker selection, key moments, feedback from guests, curating the right room, and plenty more.


01:13 A Last-Minute Surprise

09:40 Curating the Room

12:05 Programming Decisions

25:45 AI and Industry Trends

36:43 2026 Summit


Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 2553 no How Much Is The Weeknd's Music Really Worth? Our Trapital Summit is Wednesday, September 10 in Los Angeles! Get your tickets here. Today's mini-episode is a breakdown on The Weeknd's $1 billion music rights financing goals and whether it is worth that massive price tag. I also share a few words on the late Peter Sinclair, CEO and co-founder of beatBread. How Much Is The Weeknd's Music Really Worth? - Trapital Trapital Summit 2025 Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:56:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie Our Trapital Summit is Wednesday, September 10 in Los Angeles! Get your tickets here. Today's mini-episode is a breakdown on The Weeknd's $1 billion music rights financing goals and whether it is worth that massive price tag. I also share a few words on the late Peter Sinclair, CEO and co-founder of beatBread. How Much Is The Weeknd's Music Really Worth? - Trapital Trapital Summit 2025 Our Trapital Summit is Wednesday, September 10 in Los Angeles! Get your tickets here.


Today's mini-episode is a breakdown on The Weeknd's $1 billion music rights financing goals and whether it is worth that massive price tag. I also share a few words on the late Peter Sinclair, CEO and co-founder of beatBread.


How Much Is The Weeknd's Music Really Worth? - Trapital

Trapital Summit 2025

]]> 578 Have Record Labels Turned Into Private Equity Firms? Trapital Summit is on Sep 10 in LA. Join us! Get your tickets here. The major record labels are adapting for the modern era. Lately, that shift has them looking less like RCA and more like KKR. These companies have invested less in signing new artists and more in acquiring the legendary back catalog of music. With streaming driving steady royalties, the music rights of proven hits are valuable. Music companies have teamed up with private equity firms to cash in. I also break down how this changes artist deals, lowers risk-taking, and opens the door for global investors and even artists to buy in. 00:33 The Shift to Private Equity 03:45 The Back Catalog Boom 09:24 A&R Reductions 12:14 What The Future Holds This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Trapital Summit is on Wednesday September 10 in LA. Join us! Thu, 07 Aug 2025 11:22:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie Trapital Summit is on Sep 10 in LA. Join us! Get your tickets here. The major record labels are adapting for the modern era. Lately, that shift has them looking less like RCA and more like KKR. These companies have invested less in signing new artists and more in acquiring the legendary back catalog of music. With streaming driving steady royalties, the music rights of proven hits are valuable. Music companies have teamed up with private equity firms to cash in. I also break down how this changes artist deals, lowers risk-taking, and opens the door for global investors and even artists to buy in. 00:33 The Shift to Private Equity 03:45 The Back Catalog Boom 09:24 A&R Reductions 12:14 What The Future Holds This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Trapital Summit is on Wednesday September 10 in LA. Join us!

Trapital Summit is on Sep 10 in LA. Join us! Get your tickets here.

The major record labels are adapting for the modern era. Lately, that shift has them looking less like RCA and more like KKR. These companies have invested less in signing new artists and more in acquiring the legendary back catalog of music. With streaming driving steady royalties, the music rights of proven hits are valuable. Music companies have teamed up with private equity firms to cash in.

I also break down how this changes artist deals, lowers risk-taking, and opens the door for global investors and even artists to buy in.


00:33 The Shift to Private Equity

03:45 The Back Catalog Boom

09:24 A&R Reductions

12:14 What The Future Holds


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

Trapital Summit is on Wednesday September 10 in LA. Join us!


]]> 1072 no The Business Behind Iconic Music Catalogs In this solo episode, we dive into the most valuable music catalogs in the world, and what makes them stand out. From Queen and Michael Jackson’s deals and more, we explore why the top catalogs fetch massive multiples and how they operate at unique financial and cultural assets. 03:19 Iconic Catalogs 07:07 Music Biopics 08:32 How Genres Imoact Catalog Value 13:07 Future of Music Rights Trapital Summit is on Wednesday September 10 in LA. Join us! This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Wed, 30 Jul 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie In this solo episode, we dive into the most valuable music catalogs in the world, and what makes them stand out. From Queen and Michael Jackson’s deals and more, we explore why the top catalogs fetch massive multiples and how they operate at unique financial and cultural assets. 03:19 Iconic Catalogs 07:07 Music Biopics 08:32 How Genres Imoact Catalog Value 13:07 Future of Music Rights Trapital Summit is on Wednesday September 10 in LA. Join us! This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. In this solo episode, we dive into the most valuable music catalogs in the world, and what makes them stand out. From Queen and Michael Jackson’s deals and more, we explore why the top catalogs fetch massive multiples and how they operate at unique financial and cultural assets.


03:19 Iconic Catalogs

07:07 Music Biopics

08:32 How Genres Imoact Catalog Value

13:07 Future of Music Rights


Trapital Summit is on Wednesday September 10 in LA. Join us!

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.


]]> 1093 no Revisiting The Sphere (Rewind) In this episode, we’re revisiting our deep dive on James Dolan’s Sphere in Las Vegas. The Backstreet Boys residency at the Sphere. As we predicted on our 2025 Live Music Draft, the boy band’s apperance at the Vgas spectacle would exceed expectations. So I talk about that before I jump into the episode. Then I’m joined by MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano for our deep dive on the mult-billion dollar vision and future of The Sphere. 04:05 Sphere’s Backstory 10:33 Business Model 19:21 Financial Hurdles 28:40 Expansion Plans 33:11 Future Prospects Early bird ticket sales to the Trapital Summit end on Thursday July 24! Get your tickets today before prices go up! Join us on Wednesday September 10 in LA. This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Wed, 23 Jul 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie In this episode, we’re revisiting our deep dive on James Dolan’s Sphere in Las Vegas. The Backstreet Boys residency at the Sphere. As we predicted on our 2025 Live Music Draft, the boy band’s apperance at the Vgas spectacle would exceed expectations. So I talk about that before I jump into the episode. Then I’m joined by MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano for our deep dive on the mult-billion dollar vision and future of The Sphere. 04:05 Sphere’s Backstory 10:33 Business Model 19:21 Financial Hurdles 28:40 Expansion Plans 33:11 Future Prospects Early bird ticket sales to the Trapital Summit end on Thursday July 24! Get your tickets today before prices go up! Join us on Wednesday September 10 in LA. This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

In this episode, we’re revisiting our deep dive on James Dolan’s Sphere in Las Vegas. The Backstreet Boys residency at the Sphere. As we predicted on our 2025 Live Music Draft, the boy band’s apperance at the Vgas spectacle would exceed expectations. So I talk about that before I jump into the episode.

Then I’m joined by MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano for our deep dive on the mult-billion dollar vision and future of The Sphere.


04:05 Sphere’s Backstory

10:33 Business Model

19:21 Financial Hurdles

28:40 Expansion Plans

33:11 Future Prospects

Early bird ticket sales to the Trapital Summit end on Thursday July 24! Get your tickets today before prices go up! Join us on Wednesday September 10 in LA.

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.


]]> 2385 no Algorithms vs. Curators: YouTube’s Role in Breaking Through The Noise It’s harder than ever to breaking through the noise, but navigating YouTube may be a prerequisite to even have a chance. In this episode, I’m joined by YouTube’s Director of Black Music & Culture, Tuma Basa. He returns to reflect on the platform’s evolution and the ongoing relationship between curators and the algorithms they rely on to reach the masses. 03:23 The YouTube Advantages 12:42 Global Music Trends 16:29 Community Engagement on Platforms 18:42 Music videos: Hype Williams and Dave Meyers Our partners at Chartmetric just released a new report you should check out, 2025 Make Music Equal Report. Our Trapital Summit is Wednesday, September 10 in LA! Get your early bird tickets here before July 24. This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Tue, 15 Jul 2025 16:42:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie It’s harder than ever to breaking through the noise, but navigating YouTube may be a prerequisite to even have a chance. In this episode, I’m joined by YouTube’s Director of Black Music & Culture, Tuma Basa. He returns to reflect on the platform’s evolution and the ongoing relationship between curators and the algorithms they rely on to reach the masses. 03:23 The YouTube Advantages 12:42 Global Music Trends 16:29 Community Engagement on Platforms 18:42 Music videos: Hype Williams and Dave Meyers Our partners at Chartmetric just released a new report you should check out, 2025 Make Music Equal Report. Our Trapital Summit is Wednesday, September 10 in LA! Get your early bird tickets here before July 24. This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

It’s harder than ever to breaking through the noise, but navigating YouTube may be a prerequisite to even have a chance.

In this episode, I’m joined by YouTube’s Director of Black Music & Culture, Tuma Basa. He returns to reflect on the platform’s evolution and the ongoing relationship between curators and the algorithms they rely on to reach the masses.


03:23 The YouTube Advantages 12:42 Global Music Trends 16:29 Community Engagement on Platforms 18:42 Music videos: Hype Williams and Dave Meyers


Our partners at Chartmetric just released a new report you should check out, 2025 Make Music Equal Report.


Our Trapital Summit is Wednesday, September 10 in LA! Get your early bird tickets here before July 24.

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.


]]> 1551 no Trapital Summit: Sep 10 in LA. A few announcements... This is the room for the leaders shaping what's next in music, entertainment, and technology. It's Wednesday, September 10 at NeueHouse Hollywood in Los Angeles, CA. ​Register now. Early bird pricing ends July 24, two weeks from today. You'll hear from: Elliot Grainge, CEO, Atlantic Music Group Steve Pamon, CEO, Verzuz | Board Member, IMAX Erin Teague, CPO, Character.ai Kakul Srivastava, CEO, Splice Andrew Sanchez, Co-Founder and CEO, Udio ...More to be announced soon Special thanks to our partners who helped make the summit possible: Platinum: The Raine Group Gold: Splice, Warner Music Group Bronze: SoundCloud, Too Lost ​Early bird pricing ends July 24. Come join us! Thu, 10 Jul 2025 18:39:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie This is the room for the leaders shaping what's next in music, entertainment, and technology. It's Wednesday, September 10 at NeueHouse Hollywood in Los Angeles, CA. ​Register now. Early bird pricing ends July 24, two weeks from today. You'll hear from: Elliot Grainge, CEO, Atlantic Music Group Steve Pamon, CEO, Verzuz | Board Member, IMAX Erin Teague, CPO, Character.ai Kakul Srivastava, CEO, Splice Andrew Sanchez, Co-Founder and CEO, Udio ...More to be announced soon Special thanks to our partners who helped make the summit possible: Platinum: The Raine Group Gold: Splice, Warner Music Group Bronze: SoundCloud, Too Lost ​Early bird pricing ends July 24. Come join us! This is the room for the leaders shaping what's next in music, entertainment, and technology. It's Wednesday, September 10 at NeueHouse Hollywood in Los Angeles, CA.


​Register now. Early bird pricing ends July 24, two weeks from today.


You'll hear from:

  • Elliot Grainge, CEO, Atlantic Music Group
  • Steve Pamon, CEO, Verzuz | Board Member, IMAX
  • Erin Teague, CPO, Character.ai
  • Kakul Srivastava, CEO, Splice
  • Andrew Sanchez, Co-Founder and CEO, Udio
  • ...More to be announced soon

Special thanks to our partners who helped make the summit possible:

  • Platinum: The Raine Group
  • Gold: Splice, Warner Music Group
  • Bronze: SoundCloud, Too Lost

​Early bird pricing ends July 24. Come join us!

]]> 187 Record Labels Want Market Share, But At What Cost? This episode’s a bit different, no guests. I’m going solo to break down a big topic. For record labels, the market share they have relative to peers drives major decisions both macro and micro. They spend a lot to maintain that position. Is it all worth it? 01:33 Market Share’s Financial Impact 05:49 Challenges & Critiques 07:21 Cross-Industry Parallels 12:54 Indies vs. Majors Trapital Summit is on Wednesday September 10 in LA. Join us! This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Thu, 03 Jul 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie This episode’s a bit different, no guests. I’m going solo to break down a big topic. For record labels, the market share they have relative to peers drives major decisions both macro and micro. They spend a lot to maintain that position. Is it all worth it? 01:33 Market Share’s Financial Impact 05:49 Challenges & Critiques 07:21 Cross-Industry Parallels 12:54 Indies vs. Majors Trapital Summit is on Wednesday September 10 in LA. Join us! This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

This episode’s a bit different, no guests. I’m going solo to break down a big topic. For record labels, the market share they have relative to peers drives major decisions both macro and micro. They spend a lot to maintain that position. Is it all worth it?


01:33 Market Share’s Financial Impact

05:49 Challenges & Critiques

07:21 Cross-Industry Parallels

12:54 Indies vs. Majors


Trapital Summit is on Wednesday September 10 in LA. Join us!

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.


]]> 1110 no How Will Taylor Swift’s Masters Ownership Saga Be Remembered? Now that the dust has settled on Taylor Swift’s music rights saga, what’s next? We unpacked the financial impact of all the transactions on key players like Scooter Braun, Scott Borchetta, Shamrock Capital, and Swift herself. While all of those parties made a lot more money, we took a deeper look into the potential losers over the years. And lastly, we tackle an important question: how will history remember this? Join me and Tati Cirisano as we break it all down. 00:47 Scooter Braun’s Legacy 03:34 Taylor Swift Fans 07:12 Artists Reclaiming Their Music Rights 11:42 Superstar Leverage 24:25 Ticketmaster and the Eras Tour This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Trapital summit Mon, 23 Jun 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie Now that the dust has settled on Taylor Swift’s music rights saga, what’s next? We unpacked the financial impact of all the transactions on key players like Scooter Braun, Scott Borchetta, Shamrock Capital, and Swift herself. While all of those parties made a lot more money, we took a deeper look into the potential losers over the years. And lastly, we tackle an important question: how will history remember this? Join me and Tati Cirisano as we break it all down. 00:47 Scooter Braun’s Legacy 03:34 Taylor Swift Fans 07:12 Artists Reclaiming Their Music Rights 11:42 Superstar Leverage 24:25 Ticketmaster and the Eras Tour This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Trapital summit

Now that the dust has settled on Taylor Swift’s music rights saga, what’s next?

We unpacked the financial impact of all the transactions on key players like Scooter Braun, Scott Borchetta, Shamrock Capital, and Swift herself. While all of those parties made a lot more money, we took a deeper look into the potential losers over the years. And lastly, we tackle an important question: how will history remember this?


Join me and Tati Cirisano as we break it all down.


00:47 Scooter Braun’s Legacy 03:34 Taylor Swift Fans 07:12 Artists Reclaiming Their Music Rights 11:42 Superstar Leverage 24:25 Ticketmaster and the Eras Tour


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

Trapital summit

]]> 2320 no Why Artist Development Matters More Than Ever We’re joined by AWAL CEO Lonny Olinick. In the episode, we broke down why artist development still matters, how AWAL merges traditional record label services with its distribution business, giving artists creative freedom, global reach, and real ownership to AWAL’s artist-first approach often beats major label deals, what it means to be part of the Sony Music family, and how the future of music is being rewritten—deal by deal. 00:13 AWAL Business Model 03:57 Artist Development Focus 10:19 Sony’s Acquisition of AWAL 13:40 Global Expansion and Team Building 25:13 Industry Insights and Future Outlook This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Thu, 12 Jun 2025 19:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie We’re joined by AWAL CEO Lonny Olinick. In the episode, we broke down why artist development still matters, how AWAL merges traditional record label services with its distribution business, giving artists creative freedom, global reach, and real ownership to AWAL’s artist-first approach often beats major label deals, what it means to be part of the Sony Music family, and how the future of music is being rewritten—deal by deal. 00:13 AWAL Business Model 03:57 Artist Development Focus 10:19 Sony’s Acquisition of AWAL 13:40 Global Expansion and Team Building 25:13 Industry Insights and Future Outlook This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

We’re joined by AWAL CEO Lonny Olinick. In the episode, we broke down why artist development still matters, how AWAL merges traditional record label services with its distribution business, giving artists creative freedom, global reach, and real ownership to AWAL’s artist-first approach often beats major label deals, what it means to be part of the Sony Music family, and how the future of music is being rewritten—deal by deal.

00:13 AWAL Business Model 03:57 Artist Development Focus 10:19 Sony’s Acquisition of AWAL 13:40 Global Expansion and Team Building 25:13 Industry Insights and Future Outlook


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.


]]> 1977 Does Hip-Hop Still Run Luxury Fashion? Hip-hop’s has had an outsized impact in fashion for decades, but where are we today? In this episode, I am joined by Fashion Killa author Sowmya Krishnamurthy. We unpack hip-hop’s relationship with fashion, how these partnerships have evolved, where they stand in 2025, and what we want to see more of. 01:41 Hip-Hop’s Cultural Impact vs. Sales Metrics 11:37 Nostalgia and the Evolution of Celebrity 23:22 The Future of Hip-Hop in High Fashion This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Thu, 05 Jun 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie Hip-hop’s has had an outsized impact in fashion for decades, but where are we today? In this episode, I am joined by Fashion Killa author Sowmya Krishnamurthy. We unpack hip-hop’s relationship with fashion, how these partnerships have evolved, where they stand in 2025, and what we want to see more of. 01:41 Hip-Hop’s Cultural Impact vs. Sales Metrics 11:37 Nostalgia and the Evolution of Celebrity 23:22 The Future of Hip-Hop in High Fashion This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

Hip-hop’s has had an outsized impact in fashion for decades, but where are we today? In this episode, I am joined by Fashion Killa author Sowmya Krishnamurthy. We unpack hip-hop’s relationship with fashion, how these partnerships have evolved, where they stand in 2025, and what we want to see more of.


01:41 Hip-Hop’s Cultural Impact vs. Sales Metrics 11:37 Nostalgia and the Evolution of Celebrity 23:22 The Future of Hip-Hop in High Fashion


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.


]]> 1848 no America Streams American. The World Follows. American music still dominate the global stage, despite the world going local. In this episode, I am joined by former chief economist at Spotify, Will Page. We explore the powerful global influence of American music and what it reveals about culture, commerce, and control in the streaming era. From top-down industry power to bottom-up grassroots movements, we unpack how hits spread, why the U.S. music market is still growing despite predictions of global decentralization, and more. 00:28 American Music’s Global Influence 03:40 Glocalization and Market Dynamics 09:42 Hip-Hop an Country Music Trends 13:24 Economic Factors 27:50 Will Page’s Mixcloud This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. For Will’s 2025 DJ mix, here’s the full link Thu, 29 May 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie American music still dominate the global stage, despite the world going local. In this episode, I am joined by former chief economist at Spotify, Will Page. We explore the powerful global influence of American music and what it reveals about culture, commerce, and control in the streaming era. From top-down industry power to bottom-up grassroots movements, we unpack how hits spread, why the U.S. music market is still growing despite predictions of global decentralization, and more. 00:28 American Music’s Global Influence 03:40 Glocalization and Market Dynamics 09:42 Hip-Hop an Country Music Trends 13:24 Economic Factors 27:50 Will Page’s Mixcloud This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. For Will’s 2025 DJ mix, here’s the full link

American music still dominate the global stage, despite the world going local.

In this episode, I am joined by former chief economist at Spotify, Will Page. We explore the powerful global influence of American music and what it reveals about culture, commerce, and control in the streaming era.

From top-down industry power to bottom-up grassroots movements, we unpack how hits spread, why the U.S. music market is still growing despite predictions of global decentralization, and more.

00:28 American Music’s Global Influence 03:40 Glocalization and Market Dynamics 09:42 Hip-Hop an Country Music Trends 13:24 Economic Factors 27:50 Will Page’s Mixcloud

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. For Will’s 2025 DJ mix, here’s the full link


]]> 1947 no The Business of Soundtracking the Creator Economy There are billions of videos uploaded to the internet daily. They all need the right music or sound effect. Many of them rely on Epidemic Sound to make that happen. In this episode, I’m joined by Oscar Hoglund, co-founder and CEO of Epidemic Sound. We dive into how Epidemic Sound uses AI to enhance music discovery while ensuring fair compensation for artists through a unique revenue model. Oscar also shares valuable insights on industry trends, the growth of the creator economy, and where the next wave of value will come from. 01:50 Evolution of Content Creation 06:59 Epidemic Sound's Four-Pillar Model 21:01 The Acceleration of the Creator Economy 24:22 AI in Music Adaptation and Generation 28:18 Data and Distribution 36:24 Future Aspirations This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Tue, 13 May 2025 02:15:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie There are billions of videos uploaded to the internet daily. They all need the right music or sound effect. Many of them rely on Epidemic Sound to make that happen. In this episode, I’m joined by Oscar Hoglund, co-founder and CEO of Epidemic Sound. We dive into how Epidemic Sound uses AI to enhance music discovery while ensuring fair compensation for artists through a unique revenue model. Oscar also shares valuable insights on industry trends, the growth of the creator economy, and where the next wave of value will come from. 01:50 Evolution of Content Creation 06:59 Epidemic Sound's Four-Pillar Model 21:01 The Acceleration of the Creator Economy 24:22 AI in Music Adaptation and Generation 28:18 Data and Distribution 36:24 Future Aspirations This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. There are billions of videos uploaded to the internet daily. They all need the right music or sound effect. Many of them rely on Epidemic Sound to make that happen.

In this episode, I’m joined by Oscar Hoglund, co-founder and CEO of Epidemic Sound. We dive into how Epidemic Sound uses AI to enhance music discovery while ensuring fair compensation for artists through a unique revenue model. Oscar also shares valuable insights on industry trends, the growth of the creator economy, and where the next wave of value will come from.


01:50 Evolution of Content Creation 06:59 Epidemic Sound's Four-Pillar Model 21:01 The Acceleration of the Creator Economy 24:22 AI in Music Adaptation and Generation 28:18 Data and Distribution 36:24 Future Aspirations


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.


]]> 2416 no Tariffs, Tours, and Trade Wars: Why Music Investment Won’t Slow Down Is the global market headed for another shake-up? In this episode, we unpack the rising uncertainty in international trade and finance—from shifting geopolitical alliances to unexpected tariffs and policy pivots. What does this mean for businesses, investors, and everyday consumers? Tune in as Billboard’s Senior Finance Correspondent, Liz Dilts Marshall and I break down the trends, the tensions, and what might come next in the global economy. 00:31 Investor Interest in Music Assets 01:49 Earnings Reports and Market Reactions 09:04 Potential Impact of Tariffs 11:39 Touring and Live Music Challenges 17:12 Hipgnosis and Music Royalties 23:59 Comparing Music Value: 1999 vs. Today This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Thu, 08 May 2025 11:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie Is the global market headed for another shake-up? In this episode, we unpack the rising uncertainty in international trade and finance—from shifting geopolitical alliances to unexpected tariffs and policy pivots. What does this mean for businesses, investors, and everyday consumers? Tune in as Billboard’s Senior Finance Correspondent, Liz Dilts Marshall and I break down the trends, the tensions, and what might come next in the global economy. 00:31 Investor Interest in Music Assets 01:49 Earnings Reports and Market Reactions 09:04 Potential Impact of Tariffs 11:39 Touring and Live Music Challenges 17:12 Hipgnosis and Music Royalties 23:59 Comparing Music Value: 1999 vs. Today This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Is the global market headed for another shake-up?

In this episode, we unpack the rising uncertainty in international trade and finance—from shifting geopolitical alliances to unexpected tariffs and policy pivots. What does this mean for businesses, investors, and everyday consumers? Tune in as Billboard’s Senior Finance Correspondent, Liz Dilts Marshall and I break down the trends, the tensions, and what might come next in the global economy.


00:31 Investor Interest in Music Assets 01:49 Earnings Reports and Market Reactions 09:04 Potential Impact of Tariffs 11:39 Touring and Live Music Challenges 17:12 Hipgnosis and Music Royalties 23:59 Comparing Music Value: 1999 vs. Today


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.


]]> 2147 no The 2025 Live Music Draft In this episode, we’re shaking things up with our very first Live Music Draft 2025! Joined by MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano, we’re drafting our top music festivals, stadium tours, arena tours, concert residencies, over-performers, and under-performers of the year! 02:30 Music Festivals 09:21 Stadium Tours 14:04 Arena Tours (First Timers) 22:00 Vegas Residencies 25:07 Overperformers 28:53 Underperformers 29:51  Market Moves This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Mon, 05 May 2025 10:00:00 -0000 trailer Dan Runcie In this episode, we’re shaking things up with our very first Live Music Draft 2025! Joined by MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano, we’re drafting our top music festivals, stadium tours, arena tours, concert residencies, over-performers, and under-performers of the year! 02:30 Music Festivals 09:21 Stadium Tours 14:04 Arena Tours (First Timers) 22:00 Vegas Residencies 25:07 Overperformers 28:53 Underperformers 29:51  Market Moves This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. In this episode, we’re shaking things up with our very first Live Music Draft 2025! Joined by MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano, we’re drafting our top music festivals, stadium tours, arena tours, concert residencies, over-performers, and under-performers of the year!


02:30 Music Festivals 09:21 Stadium Tours 14:04 Arena Tours (First Timers) 22:00 Vegas Residencies 25:07 Overperformers 28:53 Underperformers

29:51  Market Moves

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.


]]> 2241 no The $10B+ Blind Spot in B2B Streaming There are millions of companies worldwide that use personal music streaming accounts for their businesses’ music. But if those companies had the business-level streaming they should, it would add billions of annual revenue to the industry. So why isn’t this a priority? Well, it’s a priority for today’s guest, Ola Sars. He’s the founder and CEO of Soundtrack, which has been solving this problem for ten years. His business spun out of Spotify to tackle the SMB opportunity. He brought us under the hood to talk about how he convinces business to use his service, his revenue, churn, and plans for the future. 03:49 How Big is the B2B Market 13:04 Soundtrack’s Products and GTM 21:58 B2B vs Consumer Streaming Economics 25:54 How Labels Feel About Soundtrack Trapital Summit: September 10 in LA. Get your tickets here! This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Thu, 01 May 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie There are millions of companies worldwide that use personal music streaming accounts for their businesses’ music. But if those companies had the business-level streaming they should, it would add billions of annual revenue to the industry. So why isn’t this a priority? Well, it’s a priority for today’s guest, Ola Sars. He’s the founder and CEO of Soundtrack, which has been solving this problem for ten years. His business spun out of Spotify to tackle the SMB opportunity. He brought us under the hood to talk about how he convinces business to use his service, his revenue, churn, and plans for the future. 03:49 How Big is the B2B Market 13:04 Soundtrack’s Products and GTM 21:58 B2B vs Consumer Streaming Economics 25:54 How Labels Feel About Soundtrack Trapital Summit: September 10 in LA. Get your tickets here! This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. There are millions of companies worldwide that use personal music streaming accounts for their businesses’ music. But if those companies had the business-level streaming they should, it would add billions of annual revenue to the industry. So why isn’t this a priority?

Well, it’s a priority for today’s guest, Ola Sars. He’s the founder and CEO of Soundtrack, which has been solving this problem for ten years. His business spun out of Spotify to tackle the SMB opportunity. He brought us under the hood to talk about how he convinces business to use his service, his revenue, churn, and plans for the future.


03:49 How Big is the B2B Market 13:04 Soundtrack’s Products and GTM 21:58 B2B vs Consumer Streaming Economics 25:54 How Labels Feel About Soundtrack


Trapital Summit: September 10 in LA. Get your tickets here!

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.


]]> 2137 no Why Legacy Rock Bands Still Love Music Festivals Everyone’s talking about “superfans,” but artist management companies have been focused on their top fans for quite some time. We sat down with Jonathan Daniel from Crush Music. They manage Green Day, Miley Cyrus, Sia, Weezer, Fall Out Boy, Train, and others. We talk about Coachella, touring strategies, how they use data, business ventures and more. I also ask JD about acquisition offers, why they focus on rock and pop acts, and a whole lot more. We dive into the realities of managing creatives, building trust within teams, and striking the balance between creative freedom and structure. We also introduced a new segment to the show called “Market Moves” with our producer, Eric! 00:28 Coachella highlights 08:12 Touring Strategies and Challenges 19:12 Business Ventures and Sync Opportunities 33:45 Why Crush focuses on Rock and Pop 35:40 Market Moves This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Trapital Summit - Super Early Bird Tix Available Until 4/30. Mon, 28 Apr 2025 16:27:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie Everyone’s talking about “superfans,” but artist management companies have been focused on their top fans for quite some time. We sat down with Jonathan Daniel from Crush Music. They manage Green Day, Miley Cyrus, Sia, Weezer, Fall Out Boy, Train, and others. We talk about Coachella, touring strategies, how they use data, business ventures and more. I also ask JD about acquisition offers, why they focus on rock and pop acts, and a whole lot more. We dive into the realities of managing creatives, building trust within teams, and striking the balance between creative freedom and structure. We also introduced a new segment to the show called “Market Moves” with our producer, Eric! 00:28 Coachella highlights 08:12 Touring Strategies and Challenges 19:12 Business Ventures and Sync Opportunities 33:45 Why Crush focuses on Rock and Pop 35:40 Market Moves This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Trapital Summit - Super Early Bird Tix Available Until 4/30. Everyone’s talking about “superfans,” but artist management companies have been focused on their top fans for quite some time. We sat down with Jonathan Daniel from Crush Music. They manage Green Day, Miley Cyrus, Sia, Weezer, Fall Out Boy, Train, and others.

We talk about Coachella, touring strategies, how they use data, business ventures and more. I also ask JD about acquisition offers, why they focus on rock and pop acts, and a whole lot more. We dive into the realities of managing creatives, building trust within teams, and striking the balance between creative freedom and structure.

We also introduced a new segment to the show called “Market Moves” with our producer, Eric!


00:28 Coachella highlights 08:12 Touring Strategies and Challenges 19:12 Business Ventures and Sync Opportunities 33:45 Why Crush focuses on Rock and Pop

35:40 Market Moves


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.


Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.


Trapital Summit - Super Early Bird Tix Available Until 4/30.

]]> 2378 no How to Win on YouTube Let’s cut through the noise and get real about what it takes to build a sustainable business on the world’s biggest video platform. Joining me are Ten2 Media founders Donna Budica and George Karalexis, who help artists like Benson Boone and Brent Faiyaz maximize YouTube. ****We dive into insights on how artists can take advantage of the YouTube ecosystem. Whether you're an artist, content creator, or curious about what really drives YouTube success—this episode is for you. 00:10 Impact of TikTok Ban 04:11 Content Formats and Artist Strategies 13:30 Navigating Artist Preferences 19:49 Comparing YouTube and Spotify This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Thu, 24 Apr 2025 13:54:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie Let’s cut through the noise and get real about what it takes to build a sustainable business on the world’s biggest video platform. Joining me are Ten2 Media founders Donna Budica and George Karalexis, who help artists like Benson Boone and Brent Faiyaz maximize YouTube. ****We dive into insights on how artists can take advantage of the YouTube ecosystem. Whether you're an artist, content creator, or curious about what really drives YouTube success—this episode is for you. 00:10 Impact of TikTok Ban 04:11 Content Formats and Artist Strategies 13:30 Navigating Artist Preferences 19:49 Comparing YouTube and Spotify This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Let’s cut through the noise and get real about what it takes to build a sustainable business on the world’s biggest video platform.

Joining me are Ten2 Media founders Donna Budica and George Karalexis, who help artists like Benson Boone and Brent Faiyaz maximize YouTube. ****We dive into insights on how artists can take advantage of the YouTube ecosystem.

Whether you're an artist, content creator, or curious about what really drives YouTube success—this episode is for you.



00:10 Impact of TikTok Ban

04:11 Content Formats and Artist Strategies

13:30 Navigating Artist Preferences

19:49 Comparing YouTube and Spotify



This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 2161 no Coachella’s Layaway Plan, Tubi’s Long Game , Lucian Grainge’s Legacy It’s time for a Trapital Mailbag! We dive into hot topics like the Coachella’s payment plan debate, Tubi’s strategy under Fox, Meta vs the FTC, Lucian Grainge’s tenure at UMG, and a special section on how we use AI tools at Trapital! 00:55 Coachella Payment Plans 07:07 Tubi's Long-Term Strategy 15:42 Lucian Grange's Impact on UMG 26:14 Meta and the FTC: A Legal Battle 29:47 AI Tools for Trapital Trapital Summit tickets here: early bird tickets until April 30! Want to be featured in the next partner spotlight? podcast@trapital.com Summit partnership opportunities: summit@trapital.co Sat, 19 Apr 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie It’s time for a Trapital Mailbag! We dive into hot topics like the Coachella’s payment plan debate, Tubi’s strategy under Fox, Meta vs the FTC, Lucian Grainge’s tenure at UMG, and a special section on how we use AI tools at Trapital! 00:55 Coachella Payment Plans 07:07 Tubi's Long-Term Strategy 15:42 Lucian Grange's Impact on UMG 26:14 Meta and the FTC: A Legal Battle 29:47 AI Tools for Trapital Trapital Summit tickets here: early bird tickets until April 30! Want to be featured in the next partner spotlight? podcast@trapital.com Summit partnership opportunities: summit@trapital.co It’s time for a Trapital Mailbag! We dive into hot topics like the Coachella’s payment plan debate, Tubi’s strategy under Fox, Meta vs the FTC, Lucian Grainge’s tenure at UMG, and a special section on how we use AI tools at Trapital!


00:55 Coachella Payment Plans

07:07 Tubi's Long-Term Strategy

15:42 Lucian Grange's Impact on UMG

26:14 Meta and the FTC: A Legal Battle

29:47 AI Tools for Trapital


Trapital Summit tickets here: early bird tickets until April 30!

Want to be featured in the next partner spotlight? podcast@trapital.com

Summit partnership opportunities: summit@trapital.co

]]> 2313 no How TikTok Got Caught in the Trade War Our episode today is a two-parter. I start at the top with my take on TikTok. We then transition to our partner spotlight! Part 1: The April 4 deadline has passed, and there’s still no deal on TikTok. The app got caught in the middle of the U.S. - China trade war and the ongoing tariffs. How will this all play out? Part 2: I’m joined by beatBread’s CEO Peter Sinclair as we discuss the company’s Deal Comparison Tool and how it helps both artists and labels make the best possible decisions. 00:10 TikTok’s Role in the Trade War 06:15 Potential Outcomes for TikTok 10:11 beatBread’s Peter Sinclair joins us 011:06 Independent Labels and Financial Distress The beatBread Deal Comparison Tool This tool provides a side-by-side analysis of different deals, focusing on key financial aspects such as upfront cash, long-term costs, and cash flow projections over time. Trapital Summit tickets here: early bird tickets until April 30! want to be featured in the next partner spotlight? podcast@trapital.com summit partnership opportunities: summit@trapital.co Mon, 14 Apr 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie Our episode today is a two-parter. I start at the top with my take on TikTok. We then transition to our partner spotlight! Part 1: The April 4 deadline has passed, and there’s still no deal on TikTok. The app got caught in the middle of the U.S. - China trade war and the ongoing tariffs. How will this all play out? Part 2: I’m joined by beatBread’s CEO Peter Sinclair as we discuss the company’s Deal Comparison Tool and how it helps both artists and labels make the best possible decisions. 00:10 TikTok’s Role in the Trade War 06:15 Potential Outcomes for TikTok 10:11 beatBread’s Peter Sinclair joins us 011:06 Independent Labels and Financial Distress The beatBread Deal Comparison Tool This tool provides a side-by-side analysis of different deals, focusing on key financial aspects such as upfront cash, long-term costs, and cash flow projections over time. Trapital Summit tickets here: early bird tickets until April 30! want to be featured in the next partner spotlight? podcast@trapital.com summit partnership opportunities: summit@trapital.co Our episode today is a two-parter. I start at the top with my take on TikTok.

We then transition to our partner spotlight!


Part 1: The April 4 deadline has passed, and there’s still no deal on TikTok. The app got caught in the middle of the U.S. - China trade war and the ongoing tariffs. How will this all play out?


Part 2: I’m joined by beatBread’s CEO Peter Sinclair as we discuss the company’s Deal Comparison Tool and how it helps both artists and labels make the best possible decisions.


00:10 TikTok’s Role in the Trade War

06:15 Potential Outcomes for TikTok

10:11 beatBread’s Peter Sinclair joins us

011:06 Independent Labels and Financial Distress


The beatBread Deal Comparison Tool This tool provides a side-by-side analysis of different deals, focusing on key financial aspects such as upfront cash, long-term costs, and cash flow projections over time.


Trapital Summit tickets here: early bird tickets until April 30!

want to be featured in the next partner spotlight? podcast@trapital.com

summit partnership opportunities: summit@trapital.co

]]> 1125 no Inside Spotify’s $10B Payout to the Music Industry It’s Data Week at Trapital and for part 2 in this week’s episode, we take a closer look at Spotify’s economic structure and the platform’s evolving role in the music industry. Spotify’s Head of Marketing & Policy for Music, Sam Duboff joins me as we take insights from the company’s Loud and Clear report, we explore how money flows through the system, what it means for both major and independent artists, and the ongoing conversation around fairness and sustainability. 01:27 Loud and Clear Report 09:20 What Does Independent Mean? 14:36 The 225K Emerging and Professional Artists 17:46 Superstar Artists and Global Reach Loud & Clear by Spotify 2025 Report This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Thu, 10 Apr 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie It’s Data Week at Trapital and for part 2 in this week’s episode, we take a closer look at Spotify’s economic structure and the platform’s evolving role in the music industry. Spotify’s Head of Marketing & Policy for Music, Sam Duboff joins me as we take insights from the company’s Loud and Clear report, we explore how money flows through the system, what it means for both major and independent artists, and the ongoing conversation around fairness and sustainability. 01:27 Loud and Clear Report 09:20 What Does Independent Mean? 14:36 The 225K Emerging and Professional Artists 17:46 Superstar Artists and Global Reach Loud & Clear by Spotify 2025 Report This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. It’s Data Week at Trapital and for part 2 in this week’s episode, we take a closer look at Spotify’s economic structure and the platform’s evolving role in the music industry.

Spotify’s Head of Marketing & Policy for Music, Sam Duboff joins me as we take insights from the company’s Loud and Clear report, we explore how money flows through the system, what it means for both major and independent artists, and the ongoing conversation around fairness and sustainability.



01:27 Loud and Clear Report

09:20 What Does Independent Mean?

14:36 The 225K Emerging and Professional Artists

17:46 Superstar Artists and Global Reach



Loud & Clear by Spotify 2025 Report

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 2173 no Streaming Growth Slowed Down. What’s Next? It’s Data Week at Trapital! In 2024, music streaming revenue growth slowed down, but not for everyone! MIDiA Research’s Mark Mulligan joins me to break down the compaby’s annual report and the latest trends. How will the rise of the global south shape the industry? Which sectors of the “indie” market are actually growing? Will expanded rights be the next big thing? 03:18 MIDiA Research’s Recorded Music Report 08:57 Expanded Rights and Fandom 13:06 Independent Music Growth 18:05 Non-Major Labels and Market Share 22:09 Future of Music Publishing MIDiA Research 2024 Global Recorded Music Revenue Report This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Mon, 07 Apr 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie It’s Data Week at Trapital! In 2024, music streaming revenue growth slowed down, but not for everyone! MIDiA Research’s Mark Mulligan joins me to break down the compaby’s annual report and the latest trends. How will the rise of the global south shape the industry? Which sectors of the “indie” market are actually growing? Will expanded rights be the next big thing? 03:18 MIDiA Research’s Recorded Music Report 08:57 Expanded Rights and Fandom 13:06 Independent Music Growth 18:05 Non-Major Labels and Market Share 22:09 Future of Music Publishing MIDiA Research 2024 Global Recorded Music Revenue Report This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

It’s Data Week at Trapital! In 2024, music streaming revenue growth slowed down, but not for everyone! MIDiA Research’s Mark Mulligan joins me to break down the compaby’s annual report and the latest trends. How will the rise of the global south shape the industry? Which sectors of the “indie” market are actually growing? Will expanded rights be the next big thing?


03:18 MIDiA Research’s Recorded Music Report

08:57 Expanded Rights and Fandom

13:06 Independent Music Growth

18:05 Non-Major Labels and Market Share

22:09 Future of Music Publishing



MIDiA Research 2024 Global Recorded Music Revenue Report

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 1956 no Apple Music Turns 10: Is It a Success? Is Apple Music shaping the future of streaming, or is it just playing catch-up? In this episode, we discuss the past ten years of Apple Music, its role in music streaming, and whether it’s more important to the music business than it is to Apple overall. Join me and Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research as we break down the moves that led to this point, the exclusives, its stalled growth in recent years, and how it fits into Apple’s broader ecosystem. 00:15 Drake Announcing Apple Music at WWDC in 2015 04:30 Apple Music's Market Position 11:11 The Apple Ecosystem 18:53 Apple Music's Editorial and Curatorial Efforts This episode is presented by Trolley, the payout platform built for the music industry, helping artists, labels, and platforms seamlessly manage and distribute royalties worldwide. Thu, 03 Apr 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie Is Apple Music shaping the future of streaming, or is it just playing catch-up? In this episode, we discuss the past ten years of Apple Music, its role in music streaming, and whether it’s more important to the music business than it is to Apple overall. Join me and Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research as we break down the moves that led to this point, the exclusives, its stalled growth in recent years, and how it fits into Apple’s broader ecosystem. 00:15 Drake Announcing Apple Music at WWDC in 2015 04:30 Apple Music's Market Position 11:11 The Apple Ecosystem 18:53 Apple Music's Editorial and Curatorial Efforts This episode is presented by Trolley, the payout platform built for the music industry, helping artists, labels, and platforms seamlessly manage and distribute royalties worldwide. Is Apple Music shaping the future of streaming, or is it just playing catch-up?

In this episode, we discuss the past ten years of Apple Music, its role in music streaming, and whether it’s more important to the music business than it is to Apple overall.

Join me and Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research as we break down the moves that led to this point, the exclusives, its stalled growth in recent years, and how it fits into Apple’s broader ecosystem.


00:15 Drake Announcing Apple Music at WWDC in 2015

04:30 Apple Music's Market Position

11:11 The Apple Ecosystem


18:53 Apple Music's Editorial and Curatorial Efforts

This episode is presented by Trolley, the payout platform built for the music industry, helping artists, labels, and platforms seamlessly manage and distribute royalties worldwide.

]]> 1777 no Reddit: How To Monetize a Marketer’s Goldmine The most influential conversations about your industry might be from an anonymous commenters who is validated by hundreds of upvotes on popular subreddit thread. Join me and Dr. Marcus Collins, the award-winning marketer, author, and friend of the pod, as we discuss the significant cultural influence of Reddit, its evolution as a community of subcultures, and how the business has evolved. 02:08 Reddit as a Market Research Tool 04:54 The Power of Community and Moderation 15:29 Will Monetization Match its Cultural Influence? 19:41 If We Ran Reddit This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Mon, 31 Mar 2025 10:00:00 -0000 full Dan Runcie The most influential conversations about your industry might be from an anonymous commenters who is validated by hundreds of upvotes on popular subreddit thread. Join me and Dr. Marcus Collins, the award-winning marketer, author, and friend of the pod, as we discuss the significant cultural influence of Reddit, its evolution as a community of subcultures, and how the business has evolved. 02:08 Reddit as a Market Research Tool 04:54 The Power of Community and Moderation 15:29 Will Monetization Match its Cultural Influence? 19:41 If We Ran Reddit This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. The most influential conversations about your industry might be from an anonymous commenters who is validated by hundreds of upvotes on popular subreddit thread.

Join me and Dr. Marcus Collins, the award-winning marketer, author, and friend of the pod, as we discuss the significant cultural influence of Reddit, its evolution as a community of subcultures, and how the business has evolved.


02:08 Reddit as a Market Research Tool

04:54 The Power of Community and Moderation

15:29 Will Monetization Match its Cultural Influence?

19:41 If We Ran Reddit


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 2094 no Do True Moguls Still Exist? https://www.trapital.com/podcast In today’s entertainment landscape, with more platforms and formats than ever, do true moguls still exist? If we’re being honest, they may have more power today than ever before. From Lew Wasserman’s Hollywood dominance, to Ted Turner’s cable news empire, to today’s tech titans, we explore how these power players shaped the industry, and who might be next in line. Join me and Web Barr, Founder and CEO of Hi Barr Media. Web recently launched Media Moguls, where he dives deep into Ted Turner’s journey. 02:38 Ted Turner’s Rise 05:45 The Classic Definition of Media Mogul 11:16 Two Types of Moguls Today 18:46 The Future of Media Moguls This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! Tue, 25 Mar 2025 10:00:00 -0000 Do True Moguls Still Exist? full Dan Runcie In today’s entertainment landscape, with more platforms and formats than ever, do true moguls still exist? If we’re being honest, they may have more power today than ever before. From Lew Wasserman’s Hollywood dominance, to Ted Turner’s cable news empire, to today’s tech titans, we explore how these power players shaped the industry, and who might be next in line. Join me and Web Barr, Founder and CEO of Hi Barr Media. Web recently launched Media Moguls, where he dives deep into Ted Turner’s journey. 02:38 Ted Turner’s Rise 05:45 The Classic Definition of Media Mogul 11:16 Two Types of Moguls Today 18:46 The Future of Media Moguls This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! In today’s entertainment landscape, with more platforms and formats than ever, do true moguls still exist? If we’re being honest, they may have more power today than ever before.

From Lew Wasserman’s Hollywood dominance, to Ted Turner’s cable news empire, to today’s tech titans, we explore how these power players shaped the industry, and who might be next in line.

Join me and Web Barr, Founder and CEO of Hi Barr Media. Web recently launched Media Moguls, where he dives deep into Ted Turner’s journey.


02:38 Ted Turner’s Rise

05:45 The Classic Definition of Media Mogul

11:16 Two Types of Moguls Today

18:46 The Future of Media Moguls


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform!

]]> 1849 no WhatsApp is a Cultural Force. Will it Make More Money? https://www.trapital.com/podcast What if the most important social network in the world isn’t a social network at all? In this episode, we explore how WhatsApp—often overlooked in the U.S.—has become a lifeline for families, businesses, artists, and economies worldwide. Join me and Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research as we break down whether WhatsApp is the closest thing to a true “everything app,” how it differs from iMessage and texting, and why Meta has struggled to monetize it despite its massive reach. 04:33 WhatsApp's Global Growth Strategy 17:07 WhatsApp's Advertising and Privacy Dilemma 21:34 WhatsApp's role in Meta l 24:22 Instagram DMs vs WhatsApp 29:38 WhatsApp's US Growth Prospects This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! Mon, 17 Mar 2025 09:00:00 -0000 WhatsApp is a Cultural Force. Will it Make More Money? full Dan Runcie What if the most important social network in the world isn’t a social network at all? In this episode, we explore how WhatsApp—often overlooked in the U.S.—has become a lifeline for families, businesses, artists, and economies worldwide. Join me and Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research as we break down whether WhatsApp is the closest thing to a true “everything app,” how it differs from iMessage and texting, and why Meta has struggled to monetize it despite its massive reach. 04:33 WhatsApp's Global Growth Strategy 17:07 WhatsApp's Advertising and Privacy Dilemma 21:34 WhatsApp's role in Meta l 24:22 Instagram DMs vs WhatsApp 29:38 WhatsApp's US Growth Prospects This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! What if the most important social network in the world isn’t a social network at all?

In this episode, we explore how WhatsApp—often overlooked in the U.S.—has become a lifeline for families, businesses, artists, and economies worldwide.

Join me and Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research as we break down whether WhatsApp is the closest thing to a true “everything app,” how it differs from iMessage and texting, and why Meta has struggled to monetize it despite its massive reach.


04:33 WhatsApp's Global Growth Strategy

17:07 WhatsApp's Advertising and Privacy Dilemma

21:34 WhatsApp's role in Meta l

24:22 Instagram DMs vs WhatsApp

29:38 WhatsApp's US Growth Prospects


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform!

]]> 2301 no Can New Superstars Ever Surpass Current Superstars (Revisited!) https://www.trapital.com/podcast It’s the perfect time to revisit one of our more popular episodes. Taylor Swift and Beyoncé are still at the top of the music industry despite the newer artists that do well on streaming and TikTok. That said, can today’s new class of stars ever match that same level of superstardom? . In this episode, I’m joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research to explore how artists like Billie Eilish, Dua Lipa, and Bad Bunny are navigating the ever-changing music landscape. What does it take to break through the noise, and is music stardom evolving into something completely different? Let’s get into it 02:00 Streaming's Impact on Music Industry 07:06 The impact of streaming and TikTok 11:09 Olivia Rodrigo's Streaming vs Sales 15:03 Dua Lipa, Doja Cat, SZA 23:23 Morgan Wallen, Bad Bunny 30:28 "Music Industry Aspirations and Realities" 33:39 Emerging Artists: Success Through Unique Roots Trapital Summit tickets are on sale! Super early bird discount until April 30. Register here. This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Make sure you check out TechCrunch’s flagship podcast, Equity. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! Tue, 11 Mar 2025 09:10:00 -0000 Can New Superstars Ever Surpass Current Superstars (Revisited!) full Dan Runcie It’s the perfect time to revisit one of our more popular episodes. Taylor Swift and Beyoncé are still at the top of the music industry despite the newer artists that do well on streaming and TikTok. That said, can today’s new class of stars ever match that same level of superstardom? . In this episode, I’m joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research to explore how artists like Billie Eilish, Dua Lipa, and Bad Bunny are navigating the ever-changing music landscape. What does it take to break through the noise, and is music stardom evolving into something completely different? Let’s get into it 02:00 Streaming's Impact on Music Industry 07:06 The impact of streaming and TikTok 11:09 Olivia Rodrigo's Streaming vs Sales 15:03 Dua Lipa, Doja Cat, SZA 23:23 Morgan Wallen, Bad Bunny 30:28 "Music Industry Aspirations and Realities" 33:39 Emerging Artists: Success Through Unique Roots Trapital Summit tickets are on sale! Super early bird discount until April 30. Register here. This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Make sure you check out TechCrunch’s flagship podcast, Equity. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform!

It’s the perfect time to revisit one of our more popular episodes. Taylor Swift and Beyoncé are still at the top of the music industry despite the newer artists that do well on streaming and TikTok. That said, can today’s new class of stars ever match that same level of superstardom? .

In this episode, I’m joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research to explore how artists like Billie Eilish, Dua Lipa, and Bad Bunny are navigating the ever-changing music landscape. What does it take to break through the noise, and is music stardom evolving into something completely different?

Let’s get into it


02:00 Streaming's Impact on Music Industry

07:06 The impact of streaming and TikTok

11:09 Olivia Rodrigo's Streaming vs Sales

15:03 Dua Lipa, Doja Cat, SZA

23:23 Morgan Wallen, Bad Bunny

30:28 "Music Industry Aspirations and Realities"

33:39 Emerging Artists: Success Through Unique Roots


Trapital Summit tickets are on sale! Super early bird discount until April 30. Register here.

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Make sure you check out TechCrunch’s flagship podcast, Equity.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform!

]]> 2651 no Who is ‘Spotify Music Pro’ Really For? https://www.trapital.com/podcast According to Bloomberg, Spotify is exploring a new premium tier, Music Pro, which will include several new features and perks. But given what we know about music streaming, consumers, and record labels, who is this product really for? Will it work? Listen to me and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano break down all aspects of the industry’s goal to get consumers to pay more for music streaming. 05:15 Breaking Down Music Pro 07:52 Challenges in Music Streaming 15:56 How Concert Presale Tickets Work 20:33 Consumer Behavior with Music Streaming 28:31 Alternatives to Music Pro This episode is presented by beatBread. Check out their Deal Comparison Tool at beatBread.com/compare Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! Tue, 25 Feb 2025 17:20:00 -0000 Who is ‘Spotify Music Pro’ Really For? full Dan Runcie According to Bloomberg, Spotify is exploring a new premium tier, Music Pro, which will include several new features and perks. But given what we know about music streaming, consumers, and record labels, who is this product really for? Will it work? Listen to me and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano break down all aspects of the industry’s goal to get consumers to pay more for music streaming. 05:15 Breaking Down Music Pro 07:52 Challenges in Music Streaming 15:56 How Concert Presale Tickets Work 20:33 Consumer Behavior with Music Streaming 28:31 Alternatives to Music Pro This episode is presented by beatBread. Check out their Deal Comparison Tool at beatBread.com/compare Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! According to Bloomberg, Spotify is exploring a new premium tier, Music Pro, which will include several new features and perks. But given what we know about music streaming, consumers, and record labels, who is this product really for? Will it work?

Listen to me and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano break down all aspects of the industry’s goal to get consumers to pay more for music streaming.

05:15 Breaking Down Music Pro

07:52 Challenges in Music Streaming

15:56 How Concert Presale Tickets Work

20:33 Consumer Behavior with Music Streaming

28:31 Alternatives to Music Pro

This episode is presented by beatBread. Check out their Deal Comparison Tool at beatBread.com/compare

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform!

]]> 2076 no Meta’s Media Strategy: An On-Again, Off-Again Relationship https://www.trapital.com/podcast Every few years, Meta makes a big push with a media-related product, but few of then have lasted long. Instant Articles, Facebook Watch, Instagram Live, podcasts, music videos and more. Why don’t these initiatives stick? Is this similar with most social media platforms that try new things? How will this evolve in the future? Join me and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano as we discuss Meta, its suite of apps, and why these initiatives come and go. 04:32 Entertainment vs. Social Platforms 12:29 Meta’s Opportunity Cost 17:01 Instagram, WhatsApp, and acquisitions 23:21 The Future of Facebook 25:38 Social Media Trends 30:13 Open vs Closed Social Platforms This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! Mon, 17 Feb 2025 10:00:00 -0000 Meta’s Media Strategy: An On-Again, Off-Again Relationship full Dan Runcie Every few years, Meta makes a big push with a media-related product, but few of then have lasted long. Instant Articles, Facebook Watch, Instagram Live, podcasts, music videos and more. Why don’t these initiatives stick? Is this similar with most social media platforms that try new things? How will this evolve in the future? Join me and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano as we discuss Meta, its suite of apps, and why these initiatives come and go. 04:32 Entertainment vs. Social Platforms 12:29 Meta’s Opportunity Cost 17:01 Instagram, WhatsApp, and acquisitions 23:21 The Future of Facebook 25:38 Social Media Trends 30:13 Open vs Closed Social Platforms This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! Every few years, Meta makes a big push with a media-related product, but few of then have lasted long.

Instant Articles, Facebook Watch, Instagram Live, podcasts, music videos and more. Why don’t these initiatives stick? Is this similar with most social media platforms that try new things? How will this evolve in the future?

Join me and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano as we discuss Meta, its suite of apps, and why these initiatives come and go.


04:32 Entertainment vs. Social Platforms

12:29 Meta’s Opportunity Cost

17:01 Instagram, WhatsApp, and acquisitions

23:21 The Future of Facebook

25:38 Social Media Trends

30:13 Open vs Closed Social Platforms


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform!

]]> 2215 no The Biggest Surprises in Streaming https://www.trapital.com/podcast The most streamed song on Spotify from the 1980s is not from Queen, Michael Jackson, Prince, or Madonna. The most streamed Spotify song from the 2000s is not from Eminem, Usher, Beyonce, or Kanye West. The streaming data is full of unique takeaways about what people really listen to. Join me and Zack O'Malley Greenburg as we delve deep into Spotify and YouTube data, unraveling the surprises and the complex layers of music consumption. 04:10 Queen vs. Michael Jackson 07:23 The Rise of 'Mr. Brightside' 24:33 Does “Not Like Us” Have Global Reach? 28:46 TikTok's Influence on Radio 31:45 Music Catalogs and Value This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! Mon, 10 Feb 2025 10:00:00 -0000 The Biggest Surprises in Streaming full Dan Runcie The most streamed song on Spotify from the 1980s is not from Queen, Michael Jackson, Prince, or Madonna. The most streamed Spotify song from the 2000s is not from Eminem, Usher, Beyonce, or Kanye West. The streaming data is full of unique takeaways about what people really listen to. Join me and Zack O'Malley Greenburg as we delve deep into Spotify and YouTube data, unraveling the surprises and the complex layers of music consumption. 04:10 Queen vs. Michael Jackson 07:23 The Rise of 'Mr. Brightside' 24:33 Does “Not Like Us” Have Global Reach? 28:46 TikTok's Influence on Radio 31:45 Music Catalogs and Value This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! The most streamed song on Spotify from the 1980s is not from Queen, Michael Jackson, Prince, or Madonna. The most streamed Spotify song from the 2000s is not from Eminem, Usher, Beyonce, or Kanye West.

The streaming data is full of unique takeaways about what people really listen to.

Join me and Zack O'Malley Greenburg as we delve deep into Spotify and YouTube data, unraveling the surprises and the complex layers of music consumption.

04:10 Queen vs. Michael Jackson

07:23 The Rise of 'Mr. Brightside'

24:33 Does “Not Like Us” Have Global Reach?

28:46 TikTok's Influence on Radio

31:45 Music Catalogs and Value

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform!

]]> 2172 no Disney’s Pop Star Pipeline https://www.trapital.com/podcast When it comes to music, Disney is a generational hitmaker. From Miley Cyrus to Hilary Duff, Disney has consistently produced some of the biggest names in music over the past few decades. We break down what worked well, what hasn’t, and how it has evolved with artists like Olivia Rodrigo. Join me and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano as we dive in Disney’s enduring influence in the music industry. 02:00 The Pop Star Pipeline 05:16 The Eras of Disney’s Pop Stars 09:04 Why Nickelodeon Doesn’t Have a Pipeline 17:33 Disney's Impact on Artist Careers 34:32 Can Other Companies Do The Same This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! Mon, 03 Feb 2025 10:30:00 -0000 Disney’s Pop Star Pipeline full Dan Runcie When it comes to music, Disney is a generational hitmaker. From Miley Cyrus to Hilary Duff, Disney has consistently produced some of the biggest names in music over the past few decades. We break down what worked well, what hasn’t, and how it has evolved with artists like Olivia Rodrigo. Join me and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano as we dive in Disney’s enduring influence in the music industry. 02:00 The Pop Star Pipeline 05:16 The Eras of Disney’s Pop Stars 09:04 Why Nickelodeon Doesn’t Have a Pipeline 17:33 Disney's Impact on Artist Careers 34:32 Can Other Companies Do The Same This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! When it comes to music, Disney is a generational hitmaker. From Miley Cyrus to Hilary Duff, Disney has consistently produced some of the biggest names in music over the past few decades. We break down what worked well, what hasn’t, and how it has evolved with artists like Olivia Rodrigo.

Join me and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano as we dive in Disney’s enduring influence in the music industry.


02:00 The Pop Star Pipeline

05:16 The Eras of Disney’s Pop Stars

09:04 Why Nickelodeon Doesn’t Have a Pipeline

17:33 Disney's Impact on Artist Careers

34:32 Can Other Companies Do The Same


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform!

]]> 2247 no What’s Next for TikTok? https://www.trapital.com/podcast Join me and Billboard’s Kristin Robinson as we break down everything from the political context up to creator reactions to TikTok’s Shutdown. 9:11 Stalled Antitrust Efforts 14:12 How Creators Reacted to the Ban 16:05 TikTok's Role for Creators 25:12 Predictions on TikTok Ownership This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! Mon, 27 Jan 2025 10:00:00 -0000 What’s Next for TikTok? full Dan Runcie Join me and Billboard’s Kristin Robinson as we break down everything from the political context up to creator reactions to TikTok’s Shutdown. 9:11 Stalled Antitrust Efforts 14:12 How Creators Reacted to the Ban 16:05 TikTok's Role for Creators 25:12 Predictions on TikTok Ownership This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! Join me and Billboard’s Kristin Robinson as we break down everything from the political context up to creator reactions to TikTok’s Shutdown.


9:11 Stalled Antitrust Efforts

14:12 How Creators Reacted to the Ban

16:05 TikTok's Role for Creators

25:12 Predictions on TikTok Ownership


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform!

]]> 1580 no How the Podcast Mega Deals Evolved https://www.trapital.com/podcast In the podcasting world, audio quality used to be king. Today, however, video elements have become increasingly essential. As platforms like Spotify, YouTube, and Apple Podcasts continue to shift their strategies, the landscape of audio content is changing faster than ever. Join me and Ashley Carman of Bloomberg News as we break down everything about the podcast business, the current state of podcast deals, and paid podcasting and subscription models. 08:48 Video's Impact on Podcasting 12:44 Spotify's Video Push 21:45 Paid Podcasts 25:08 Audiobooks 34:37 YouTube TV App This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! Tue, 21 Jan 2025 10:00:00 -0000 How the Podcast Mega Deals Evolved full Dan Runcie In the podcasting world, audio quality used to be king. Today, however, video elements have become increasingly essential. As platforms like Spotify, YouTube, and Apple Podcasts continue to shift their strategies, the landscape of audio content is changing faster than ever. Join me and Ashley Carman of Bloomberg News as we break down everything about the podcast business, the current state of podcast deals, and paid podcasting and subscription models. 08:48 Video's Impact on Podcasting 12:44 Spotify's Video Push 21:45 Paid Podcasts 25:08 Audiobooks 34:37 YouTube TV App This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! In the podcasting world, audio quality used to be king. Today, however, video elements have become increasingly essential. As platforms like Spotify, YouTube, and Apple Podcasts continue to shift their strategies, the landscape of audio content is changing faster than ever.

Join me and Ashley Carman of Bloomberg News as we break down everything about the podcast business, the current state of podcast deals, and paid podcasting and subscription models.

08:48 Video's Impact on Podcasting

12:44 Spotify's Video Push

21:45 Paid Podcasts

25:08 Audiobooks

34:37 YouTube TV App

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform!

]]> 2347 no How YouTube Became Every Company’s Competition https://www.trapital.com/podcast YouTube turns 20 this year, and it’s influence continues to grow. In music, video, podcasts, advertising, entertainment, attention, and more. It’s in a unique role, where plenty of companies compete with YouTube, but few compete with it on all levels. But what does the future look like? Despite its edge, what are the challenges ahead? Listen to me and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano to break it all down. 08:45 Video Podcasting Trends 11:56 YouTube Premium 20:52 Paying for Ad-Free Experience 29:42 Competitors and Challenges This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! Mon, 13 Jan 2025 10:00:00 -0000 How YouTube Became Every Company’s Competition full Dan Runcie YouTube turns 20 this year, and it’s influence continues to grow. In music, video, podcasts, advertising, entertainment, attention, and more. It’s in a unique role, where plenty of companies compete with YouTube, but few compete with it on all levels. But what does the future look like? Despite its edge, what are the challenges ahead? Listen to me and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano to break it all down. 08:45 Video Podcasting Trends 11:56 YouTube Premium 20:52 Paying for Ad-Free Experience 29:42 Competitors and Challenges This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! YouTube turns 20 this year, and it’s influence continues to grow. In music, video, podcasts, advertising, entertainment, attention, and more. It’s in a unique role, where plenty of companies compete with YouTube, but few compete with it on all levels. But what does the future look like? Despite its edge, what are the challenges ahead?

Listen to me and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano to break it all down.


08:45 Video Podcasting Trends

11:56 YouTube Premium

20:52 Paying for Ad-Free Experience

29:42 Competitors and Challenges


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform!

]]> 2081 no Spotify’s Road to $100B and Profitability https://www.trapital.com/podcast Spotify went from a $14 billion market cap in 2022 to crossing $100 billion toward the end of 2024. A lot has changed in two years, but there’s more to the story than just the past 24 months. Join me and Sleepwell Capital, an investor, to break down Spotify’s journey to profitability. Hope you enjoy! 04:59 Spotify vs Big Tech DSPs 10:16 Spotify's growth signifies change in music distribution. 14:26 Netflix comparisons 21:44 YouTube vs Spotify 28:19 Is Spotify's PE ratio too high? 32:31 Major label’s challenging 2024 This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Don't forget to follow Sleepwell Capital on X and Substack for more insights. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! Mon, 06 Jan 2025 10:00:00 -0000 Spotify’s Road to $100B and Profitability full Dan Runcie Spotify went from a $14 billion market cap in 2022 to crossing $100 billion toward the end of 2024. A lot has changed in two years, but there’s more to the story than just the past 24 months. Join me and Sleepwell Capital, an investor, to break down Spotify’s journey to profitability. Hope you enjoy! 04:59 Spotify vs Big Tech DSPs 10:16 Spotify's growth signifies change in music distribution. 14:26 Netflix comparisons 21:44 YouTube vs Spotify 28:19 Is Spotify's PE ratio too high? 32:31 Major label’s challenging 2024 This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Don't forget to follow Sleepwell Capital on X and Substack for more insights. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform! Spotify went from a $14 billion market cap in 2022 to crossing $100 billion toward the end of 2024. A lot has changed in two years, but there’s more to the story than just the past 24 months. Join me and Sleepwell Capital, an investor, to break down Spotify’s journey to profitability. Hope you enjoy!


04:59 Spotify vs Big Tech DSPs

10:16 Spotify's growth signifies change in music distribution.

14:26 Netflix comparisons

21:44 YouTube vs Spotify

28:19 Is Spotify's PE ratio too high?

32:31 Major label’s challenging 2024


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Don't forget to follow Sleepwell Capital on X and Substack for more insights.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.


If you enjoy Trapital, please rate and review on your favorite podcast platform!

]]> 2143 no Winners and Losers of 2024: Part 2 https://www.trapital.com/podcast Here’s Part 2 of the winners and losers of 2024 in streaming, artist, and record label with Zack O’ Malley Greenburg. We talked about the shifting terrain of the music industry, down to the decline of festival headliners and the emergence of “Peak Superstar”. Hope you enjoy! 02:00 Live music - winners and losers 08:22 M&A - winners and losers 24:38 Comeback players of the year 28:13 Honorable mentions Tue, 24 Dec 2024 10:20:00 -0000 Winners and Losers of 2024: Part 2 full Dan Runcie Here’s Part 2 of the winners and losers of 2024 in streaming, artist, and record label with Zack O’ Malley Greenburg. We talked about the shifting terrain of the music industry, down to the decline of festival headliners and the emergence of “Peak Superstar”. Hope you enjoy! 02:00 Live music - winners and losers 08:22 M&A - winners and losers 24:38 Comeback players of the year 28:13 Honorable mentions Here’s Part 2 of the winners and losers of 2024 in streaming, artist, and record label with Zack O’ Malley Greenburg. We talked about the shifting terrain of the music industry, down to the decline of festival headliners and the emergence of “Peak Superstar”. Hope you enjoy!


02:00 Live music - winners and losers

08:22 M&A - winners and losers

24:38 Comeback players of the year

28:13 Honorable mentions

]]> 1815 no Winners and Losers of 2024: Part 1 https://www.trapital.com/podcast Here are our winners and losers of 2024 in streaming, artist, and record label. Part 2 coming in a few days. Hear me and Zack O’ Malley Greenburg break it all down! 00:00 Streaming - winners and losers 15:23 Artist - winners and losers 26:00 Record Label - winners and losers Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week! Tue, 24 Dec 2024 10:00:00 -0000 Winners and Losers of 2024: Part 1 full Dan Runcie Here are our winners and losers of 2024 in streaming, artist, and record label. Part 2 coming in a few days. Hear me and Zack O’ Malley Greenburg break it all down! 00:00 Streaming - winners and losers 15:23 Artist - winners and losers 26:00 Record Label - winners and losers Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week! Here are our winners and losers of 2024 in streaming, artist, and record label. Part 2 coming in a few days. Hear me and Zack O’ Malley Greenburg break it all down!


00:00 Streaming - winners and losers

15:23 Artist - winners and losers

26:00 Record Label - winners and losers


Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week!

]]> 2160 no What Superfans Really Want with SoundCloud CEO Eliah Seton - Trapital Summit https://www.trapital.com/podcast Here’s my fireside chat with Eliah Seton, CEO of SoundCloud, from our Trapital Summit. We talked about the company’s sale process, how it became profitable, SoundCloud as a platform for tastemakers, and more. Hope you enjoy! 06:25 Connecting music creators and fans 07:48 How SoundCloud became profitable 13:30 Adding value for superfans 20:24 Helping smaller artists monetize and engage fans 25:26 The latest on the sale process 29:42 AI and artist autonomy will alter music Thu, 19 Dec 2024 12:10:00 -0000 What Superfans Really Want with SoundCloud CEO Eliah Seton - Trapital Summit full Dan Runcie Here’s my fireside chat with Eliah Seton, CEO of SoundCloud, from our Trapital Summit. We talked about the company’s sale process, how it became profitable, SoundCloud as a platform for tastemakers, and more. Hope you enjoy! 06:25 Connecting music creators and fans 07:48 How SoundCloud became profitable 13:30 Adding value for superfans 20:24 Helping smaller artists monetize and engage fans 25:26 The latest on the sale process 29:42 AI and artist autonomy will alter music Here’s my fireside chat with Eliah Seton, CEO of SoundCloud, from our Trapital Summit. We talked about the company’s sale process, how it became profitable, SoundCloud as a platform for tastemakers, and more. Hope you enjoy!


06:25 Connecting music creators and fans

07:48 How SoundCloud became profitable

13:30 Adding value for superfans

20:24 Helping smaller artists monetize and engage fans

25:26 The latest on the sale process

29:42 AI and artist autonomy will alter music

]]> 1744 no The State of Hip-Hop with Def Jam CEO Tunji Balogun - Trapital Summit https://www.trapital.com/podcast Here’s my fireside chat with Tunji Balogun, Chairman and CEO of Def Jam, and our Trapital Summit. We talked about the evolving landscape of Universal Music Group, fluidity of music genres, the state of hip-hop, and the role of artist development. Hope you enjoy! 04:31 Def Jam's evolution 11:32 Hip-hop’s current state and influence across genres 20:29 Artist development 28:11 Afrobeats' global rise. This episode was brought to you by music creation platform Splice. Mon, 16 Dec 2024 10:00:00 -0000 The State of Hip-Hop with Def Jam CEO Tunji Balogun - Trapital Summit full Dan Runcie Here’s my fireside chat with Tunji Balogun, Chairman and CEO of Def Jam, and our Trapital Summit. We talked about the evolving landscape of Universal Music Group, fluidity of music genres, the state of hip-hop, and the role of artist development. Hope you enjoy! 04:31 Def Jam's evolution 11:32 Hip-hop’s current state and influence across genres 20:29 Artist development 28:11 Afrobeats' global rise. This episode was brought to you by music creation platform Splice. Here’s my fireside chat with Tunji Balogun, Chairman and CEO of Def Jam, and our Trapital Summit. We talked about the evolving landscape of Universal Music Group, fluidity of music genres, the state of hip-hop, and the role of artist development. Hope you enjoy!

04:31 Def Jam's evolution

11:32 Hip-hop’s current state and influence across genres

20:29 Artist development

28:11 Afrobeats' global rise.


This episode was brought to you by music creation platform Splice.

]]> 1647 no The Future of Music Creation with Splice CEO Kakul Srivastava - Trapital Summit https://www.trapital.com/podcast At our Trapital Summit, we had a fireside chat on the overlooked areas of music with Splice CEO Kakul Srivastava and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano. They discussed why it matters to invest in the new generation of talent, the tension between creators and rightsholders, and AI’s influence in music creation. Hope you enjoy! 08:22 Exploring differences between recorded music and creator tools. 08:56 Focus on creative vision, subscription model success. 12:34 Creating tools for human-centered artistic expression. 16:31 AI enhances music accessibility while preserving creativity. 20:23 Striving for better tools, UI in post-AI. 21:48 Music's influence grows beyond TikTok expectations. 25:34 Focus on nurturing young creators and fans. 26:36 Conversations between creators and rights holders challenging. This episode was brought to you by Hangout. All your music in one place. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:00:00 -0000 The Future of Music Creation with Splice CEO Kakul Srivastava - Trapital Summit full Dan Runcie At our Trapital Summit, we had a fireside chat on the overlooked areas of music with Splice CEO Kakul Srivastava and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano. They discussed why it matters to invest in the new generation of talent, the tension between creators and rightsholders, and AI’s influence in music creation. Hope you enjoy! 08:22 Exploring differences between recorded music and creator tools. 08:56 Focus on creative vision, subscription model success. 12:34 Creating tools for human-centered artistic expression. 16:31 AI enhances music accessibility while preserving creativity. 20:23 Striving for better tools, UI in post-AI. 21:48 Music's influence grows beyond TikTok expectations. 25:34 Focus on nurturing young creators and fans. 26:36 Conversations between creators and rights holders challenging. This episode was brought to you by Hangout. All your music in one place. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. At our Trapital Summit, we had a fireside chat on the overlooked areas of music with Splice CEO Kakul Srivastava and MIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano. They discussed why it matters to invest in the new generation of talent, the tension between creators and rightsholders, and AI’s influence in music creation. Hope you enjoy!


08:22 Exploring differences between recorded music and creator tools.

08:56 Focus on creative vision, subscription model success.

12:34 Creating tools for human-centered artistic expression.

16:31 AI enhances music accessibility while preserving creativity.

20:23 Striving for better tools, UI in post-AI.

21:48 Music's influence grows beyond TikTok expectations.

25:34 Focus on nurturing young creators and fans.

26:36 Conversations between creators and rights holders challenging.


This episode was brought to you by Hangout. All your music in one place.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 1785 no Founder Mode vs. Manager Mode with Believe’s Denis Ladegaillerie - Trapital Summit https://www.trapital.com/podcast At our Trapital Summit, we had to talk about Founder Mode vs. Manager Mode. We were joined by the founder and CEO of Believe, Denis Ladegaillerie. Believe is global music company that owns TuneCore and had its IPO in 2021. But in 2024, a consortium led by Ladegaillerie tried to take the company private, while fending of a takeover attempt from Warner Music Group. We talked about that experience, Believe’s plans to 2025, and more. Note: This conversation was recorded on October 3, 2024, before Universal Music Group’s claims for copyright infringement from Believe. The topic was not discussed in our conversation. This episode was brought to you by Amy Allen, who is shaping today’s music one hit at a time. For your awards consideration. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Mon, 09 Dec 2024 21:30:00 -0000 Founder Mode vs. Manager Mode with Believe’s Denis Ladegaillerie - Trapital Summit full Dan Runcie At our Trapital Summit, we had to talk about Founder Mode vs. Manager Mode. We were joined by the founder and CEO of Believe, Denis Ladegaillerie. Believe is global music company that owns TuneCore and had its IPO in 2021. But in 2024, a consortium led by Ladegaillerie tried to take the company private, while fending of a takeover attempt from Warner Music Group. We talked about that experience, Believe’s plans to 2025, and more. Note: This conversation was recorded on October 3, 2024, before Universal Music Group’s claims for copyright infringement from Believe. The topic was not discussed in our conversation. This episode was brought to you by Amy Allen, who is shaping today’s music one hit at a time. For your awards consideration. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. At our Trapital Summit, we had to talk about Founder Mode vs. Manager Mode. We were joined by the founder and CEO of Believe, Denis Ladegaillerie. Believe is global music company that owns TuneCore and had its IPO in 2021. But in 2024, a consortium led by Ladegaillerie tried to take the company private, while fending of a takeover attempt from Warner Music Group.

We talked about that experience, Believe’s plans to 2025, and more.

Note: This conversation was recorded on October 3, 2024, before Universal Music Group’s claims for copyright infringement from Believe. The topic was not discussed in our conversation.

This episode was brought to you by Amy Allen, who is shaping today’s music one hit at a time. For your awards consideration.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 1652 no Unpacking The Value of Music https://www.trapital.com/podcast The global value of music copyright is now $45.5 billion. In this episode, we'll explore the global music market with friend of the pod, Spotify’s former chief economist, Will Page. We examine how glocalization is transforming the industry from Colombia to Brazil, Mexico, and beyond. We'll also discuss the difference between value and volume, streaming revenue, the need for better measurement of emerging markets, and more.** Stay tuned as we unravel the complexities and opportunities of the music world's evolution. Let’s dive in! 04:13 Vinyl’s growth and impact 07:02 The North-South divide 12:36 The State of Streaming 15:36 Non-American artists 17:17 Colombian music - import and exports 25:20 Brazilian market dynamics 26:58 Looking beyond market share This episode was brought to you by Too Lost, the all-in-one technology solution for musicians and record labels. Learn more here. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Fri, 06 Dec 2024 10:00:00 -0000 Unpacking The Value of Music full Dan Runcie The global value of music copyright is now $45.5 billion. In this episode, we'll explore the global music market with friend of the pod, Spotify’s former chief economist, Will Page. We examine how glocalization is transforming the industry from Colombia to Brazil, Mexico, and beyond. We'll also discuss the difference between value and volume, streaming revenue, the need for better measurement of emerging markets, and more.** Stay tuned as we unravel the complexities and opportunities of the music world's evolution. Let’s dive in! 04:13 Vinyl’s growth and impact 07:02 The North-South divide 12:36 The State of Streaming 15:36 Non-American artists 17:17 Colombian music - import and exports 25:20 Brazilian market dynamics 26:58 Looking beyond market share This episode was brought to you by Too Lost, the all-in-one technology solution for musicians and record labels. Learn more here. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. The global value of music copyright is now $45.5 billion. In this episode, we'll explore the global music market with friend of the pod, Spotify’s former chief economist, Will Page. We examine how glocalization is transforming the industry from Colombia to Brazil, Mexico, and beyond.

We'll also discuss the difference between value and volume, streaming revenue, the need for better measurement of emerging markets, and more.**

Stay tuned as we unravel the complexities and opportunities of the music world's evolution. Let’s dive in!

04:13 Vinyl’s growth and impact

07:02 The North-South divide

12:36 The State of Streaming

15:36 Non-American artists

17:17 Colombian music - import and exports

25:20 Brazilian market dynamics

26:58 Looking beyond market share

This episode was brought to you by Too Lost, the all-in-one technology solution for musicians and record labels. Learn more here.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 1879 no What is Drake's Goal? https://www.trapital.com/podcast Aubrey Graham has taken two legal actions against Universal Music Group, Spotify, iHeartMedia, after the success of "Not Like Us." Are Drake's claims of inflated streams and defamation of character valid? Even if they are, what is Drake's end game with all of this? Listen to me and Brian "Z" Zisook, Audiomack co-founder, break it all down. This episode is brought to you by elgato, my go-to for podcasting. Wed, 04 Dec 2024 10:00:00 -0000 What is Drake's Goal? full Dan Runcie Aubrey Graham has taken two legal actions against Universal Music Group, Spotify, iHeartMedia, after the success of "Not Like Us." Are Drake's claims of inflated streams and defamation of character valid? Even if they are, what is Drake's end game with all of this? Listen to me and Brian "Z" Zisook, Audiomack co-founder, break it all down. This episode is brought to you by elgato, my go-to for podcasting. Aubrey Graham has taken two legal actions against Universal Music Group, Spotify, iHeartMedia, after the success of "Not Like Us." Are Drake's claims of inflated streams and defamation of character valid? Even if they are, what is Drake's end game with all of this?

Listen to me and Brian "Z" Zisook, Audiomack co-founder, break it all down.

This episode is brought to you by elgato, my go-to for podcasting.

]]> 2058 no What's Next After Streaming? Troy Carter - Trapital Summit https://www.trapital.com/podcast Here's my fireside chat with Venice Music CEO and co-founder, Troy Carter, live from the summit. We talked about the shift to independence, the need to sell more than just an audio experience, why it's a sellers market for music distributors, and the next revenue driver for music will be after streaming. We'll be sharing more conversations from the summit over the next few weeks! This episode is brought to you by Hangout, the new social music platform. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Wed, 27 Nov 2024 10:00:00 -0000 What's Next After Streaming? Troy Carter - Trapital Summit full Dan Runcie Here's my fireside chat with Venice Music CEO and co-founder, Troy Carter, live from the summit. We talked about the shift to independence, the need to sell more than just an audio experience, why it's a sellers market for music distributors, and the next revenue driver for music will be after streaming. We'll be sharing more conversations from the summit over the next few weeks! This episode is brought to you by Hangout, the new social music platform. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Here's my fireside chat with Venice Music CEO and co-founder, Troy Carter, live from the summit. We talked about the shift to independence, the need to sell more than just an audio experience, why it's a sellers market for music distributors, and the next revenue driver for music will be after streaming.

We'll be sharing more conversations from the summit over the next few weeks!

This episode is brought to you by Hangout, the new social music platform.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 1757 no Will TikTok Become Too Big to Ban? https://www.trapital.com/podcast TikTok has had quite the 2024, especially in music. The year started with a very public dispute with UMG. But TikTok also saw the rise of SoundOn, the end of TikTok Music, lingering threats of a US ban, the force of TikTok Shop, and more. Join me and MIDiA’s Tati Cirisano as we break it all down. Sponsors: HubSpot: download your free AI playbook here. Chartmetric: check out our Stat of the Week! Thu, 21 Nov 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Will TikTok Become Too Big to Ban? full Dan Runcie TikTok has had quite the 2024, especially in music. The year started with a very public dispute with UMG. But TikTok also saw the rise of SoundOn, the end of TikTok Music, lingering threats of a US ban, the force of TikTok Shop, and more. Join me and MIDiA’s Tati Cirisano as we break it all down. Sponsors: HubSpot: download your free AI playbook here. Chartmetric: check out our Stat of the Week! TikTok has had quite the 2024, especially in music. The year started with a very public dispute with UMG. But TikTok also saw the rise of SoundOn, the end of TikTok Music, lingering threats of a US ban, the force of TikTok Shop, and more.

Join me and MIDiA’s Tati Cirisano as we break it all down.


Sponsors:

]]> 2013 no AI and Music - Trapital Summit https://www.trapital.com/podcast Here’s another great fireside chat from our Trapital Summit. Listen to Warner Music Group’s chief digital officer Carletta Higginson and MIDiA Research’s Tatiana Cirisano discuss AI’s impact on music, and the ongoing tug-of-war for startup founders asking for permission vs forgivenes. Higginson has seen it from all sides of the table; as an attorney, at YouTube, and now at a major label and rights holder. Enjoy!This episode was brought to you by Too Lost, the all-in-one technology solution for musicians and record labels. Learn more here. Mon, 18 Nov 2024 19:34:00 -0000 AI and Music - Trapital Summit full Dan Runcie Here’s another great fireside chat from our Trapital Summit. Listen to Warner Music Group’s chief digital officer Carletta Higginson and MIDiA Research’s Tatiana Cirisano discuss AI’s impact on music, and the ongoing tug-of-war for startup founders asking for permission vs forgivenes. Higginson has seen it from all sides of the table; as an attorney, at YouTube, and now at a major label and rights holder. Enjoy!This episode was brought to you by Too Lost, the all-in-one technology solution for musicians and record labels. Learn more here. Here’s another great fireside chat from our Trapital Summit. Listen to Warner Music Group’s chief digital officer Carletta Higginson and MIDiA Research’s Tatiana Cirisano discuss AI’s impact on music, and the ongoing tug-of-war for startup founders asking for permission vs forgivenes.

Higginson has seen it from all sides of the table; as an attorney, at YouTube, and now at a major label and rights holder.

Enjoy!This episode was brought to you by Too Lost, the all-in-one technology solution for musicians and record labels. Learn more here.

]]> 1750 no Inside the NFL and Roc Nation Partnership https://www.trapital.com/podcast The NFL and Roc Nation just renewed their five-year partnership to lead the Super Bowl Halftime Show production and its Inspire Change Initiative. Let’s dive into what led to the initial deal in 2019, how it’s gone, Jay Z’s involvement, the twists, turns, and whole lot more. Join me and Zack O’Malley Greenburg as we break it all down.Sponsors: CD Baby: https://cdbaby.com/ Splice: https://splice.com/ Chartmetric: https://www.trapital.com/chartmetric Thu, 14 Nov 2024 16:21:00 -0000 Inside the NFL and Roc Nation Partnership full Dan Runcie The NFL and Roc Nation just renewed their five-year partnership to lead the Super Bowl Halftime Show production and its Inspire Change Initiative. Let’s dive into what led to the initial deal in 2019, how it’s gone, Jay Z’s involvement, the twists, turns, and whole lot more. Join me and Zack O’Malley Greenburg as we break it all down.Sponsors: CD Baby: https://cdbaby.com/ Splice: https://splice.com/ Chartmetric: https://www.trapital.com/chartmetric The NFL and Roc Nation just renewed their five-year partnership to lead the Super Bowl Halftime Show production and its Inspire Change Initiative. Let’s dive into what led to the initial deal in 2019, how it’s gone, Jay Z’s involvement, the twists, turns, and whole lot more. Join me and Zack O’Malley Greenburg as we break it all down.Sponsors:

]]> 2694 no The Future of Music Rights with Sherrese Clarke Soares - Trapital Summit https://www.trapital.com/podcast Here's my fireside chat with the Founder and CEO of HarbourView Equity Partners, Sherrese Clarke Soares, live from the Trapital Summit. We talked about the future of music rights, future-proofing assets, media companies, sports, and more. We'll be sharing more of our conversations from the summit on this feed, so stay tuned for that! This episode is brought to you by elgato, my go-to for podcasting tools. Learn more here. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Fri, 08 Nov 2024 10:50:00 -0000 The Future of Music Rights with Sherrese Clarke Soares - Trapital Summit full Dan Runcie Here's my fireside chat with the Founder and CEO of HarbourView Equity Partners, Sherrese Clarke Soares, live from the Trapital Summit. We talked about the future of music rights, future-proofing assets, media companies, sports, and more. We'll be sharing more of our conversations from the summit on this feed, so stay tuned for that! This episode is brought to you by elgato, my go-to for podcasting tools. Learn more here. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

Here's my fireside chat with the Founder and CEO of HarbourView Equity Partners, Sherrese Clarke Soares, live from the Trapital Summit. We talked about the future of music rights, future-proofing assets, media companies, sports, and more.

We'll be sharing more of our conversations from the summit on this feed, so stay tuned for that!

This episode is brought to you by elgato, my go-to for podcasting tools. Learn more here. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 1738 no Why The Grammys Moved to Disney https://www.trapital.com/podcast Big news! The Recordings Academy announced that in 2027, the show will move to Disney and be broadcasted on ABC, Disney+, and Hulu in a new deal worth over $500 million. This is a huge loss for CBS, the home to music's biggest night since the early 1970s. In this episode we break down the reasons for the move, along with upcoming storylines from the 2025 Grammys in February. I'm joined by LA Times pop music critic, Mikael Wood! This episode was brought to you by elgato, my go-to for podcasting tools. Learn more here. This episode was brought to you by FUGA, a Downtown-owned company empowering independent music. Learn more here. Make sure you check out our Chartmetric Stat of the Week! Fri, 01 Nov 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Why The Grammys Moved to Disney full Dan Runcie Big news! The Recordings Academy announced that in 2027, the show will move to Disney and be broadcasted on ABC, Disney+, and Hulu in a new deal worth over $500 million. This is a huge loss for CBS, the home to music's biggest night since the early 1970s. In this episode we break down the reasons for the move, along with upcoming storylines from the 2025 Grammys in February. I'm joined by LA Times pop music critic, Mikael Wood! This episode was brought to you by elgato, my go-to for podcasting tools. Learn more here. This episode was brought to you by FUGA, a Downtown-owned company empowering independent music. Learn more here. Make sure you check out our Chartmetric Stat of the Week! Big news! The Recordings Academy announced that in 2027, the show will move to Disney and be broadcasted on ABC, Disney+, and Hulu in a new deal worth over $500 million. This is a huge loss for CBS, the home to music's biggest night since the early 1970s.

In this episode we break down the reasons for the move, along with upcoming storylines from the 2025 Grammys in February. I'm joined by LA Times pop music critic, Mikael Wood!


This episode was brought to you by elgato, my go-to for podcasting tools. Learn more here.

This episode was brought to you by FUGA, a Downtown-owned company empowering independent music. Learn more here.

Make sure you check out our Chartmetric Stat of the Week!

]]> 2113 no Ghazi on EMPIRE's Rise in Music - Trapital Summit https://www.trapital.com/podcast Here's my fireside chat with the Founder and CEO of EMPIRE, Ghazi, live from the Trapital Summit. We talked about the success behind his label's hit record, Shaboozey "A Bar Song (Tipsy)," the rise of indie music, and why he will never sell his company. We'll be sharing more of our conversations from the summit on this feed, so stay tuned for that! This episode is brought to you by music creation platform Splice, the world’s best sample library. Learn more here. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Thu, 24 Oct 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Ghazi on EMPIRE's Rise in Music - Trapital Summit full Dan Runcie Here's my fireside chat with the Founder and CEO of EMPIRE, Ghazi, live from the Trapital Summit. We talked about the success behind his label's hit record, Shaboozey "A Bar Song (Tipsy)," the rise of indie music, and why he will never sell his company. We'll be sharing more of our conversations from the summit on this feed, so stay tuned for that! This episode is brought to you by music creation platform Splice, the world’s best sample library. Learn more here. Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Here's my fireside chat with the Founder and CEO of EMPIRE, Ghazi, live from the Trapital Summit. We talked about the success behind his label's hit record, Shaboozey "A Bar Song (Tipsy)," the rise of indie music, and why he will never sell his company.

We'll be sharing more of our conversations from the summit on this feed, so stay tuned for that!


This episode is brought to you by music creation platform Splice, the world’s best sample library. Learn more here.

Listen in for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 1203 no Clive Davis: The Business Behind The Golden Ears https://www.trapital.com/podcast Please take our annual listener survey here! There's arguably no executive more synonymous with the music business than Clive Davis. His influence still shapes the industry today. From his creative and business balance, to the outlook for newer genres, and the salacious scandals. In today's episode, we break it all down with Zack O'Malley Greenburg, who interviewed Davis years ago for his 2012 autobiography. Hope you enjoy! Sponsors: TIDAL: This episode is brought to you by TIDAL, who are building the hub for artists to manage and grow their careers. Learn more here. Listen for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week Mon, 23 Sep 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Clive Davis: The Business Behind The Golden Ears full Dan Runcie Please take our annual listener survey here! There's arguably no executive more synonymous with the music business than Clive Davis. His influence still shapes the industry today. From his creative and business balance, to the outlook for newer genres, and the salacious scandals. In today's episode, we break it all down with Zack O'Malley Greenburg, who interviewed Davis years ago for his 2012 autobiography. Hope you enjoy! Sponsors: TIDAL: This episode is brought to you by TIDAL, who are building the hub for artists to manage and grow their careers. Learn more here. Listen for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week Please take our annual listener survey here!

There's arguably no executive more synonymous with the music business than Clive Davis. His influence still shapes the industry today. From his creative and business balance, to the outlook for newer genres, and the salacious scandals. In today's episode, we break it all down with Zack O'Malley Greenburg, who interviewed Davis years ago for his 2012 autobiography. Hope you enjoy!

Sponsors:

TIDAL: This episode is brought to you by TIDAL, who are building the hub for artists to manage and grow their careers. Learn more here.

Listen for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week

]]> 2807 no It's Time to Hear From You https://www.trapital.com/podcast Can you fill out Trapital's short 5-min annual survey? We want to learn more about you and get your feedback to help make Trapital even better. Trapital has evolved quite a bit. Our newsletter and podcast continue to get great feedback. Our reports and events have become a cornerstone of what we offer to the community. Your survey responses will help shape the topics we cover, events we plan, and the sponsors and partners we include that will be most relevant to you and your businesses. Can you spend 5 minutes and fill out our survey? It's quick, short, and to the point. Even if you've filled out our surveys in previous years, we still want to hear from you. Thanks in advance! We'll be back next week with a new episode. Here's the survey: https://trapital.typeform.com/to/q6mDOFEt Fri, 20 Sep 2024 18:15:40 -0000 It's Time to Hear From You full Dan Runcie Can you fill out Trapital's short 5-min annual survey? We want to learn more about you and get your feedback to help make Trapital even better. Trapital has evolved quite a bit. Our newsletter and podcast continue to get great feedback. Our reports and events have become a cornerstone of what we offer to the community. Your survey responses will help shape the topics we cover, events we plan, and the sponsors and partners we include that will be most relevant to you and your businesses. Can you spend 5 minutes and fill out our survey? It's quick, short, and to the point. Even if you've filled out our surveys in previous years, we still want to hear from you. Thanks in advance! We'll be back next week with a new episode. Here's the survey: https://trapital.typeform.com/to/q6mDOFEt Can you fill out Trapital's short 5-min annual survey? We want to learn more about you and get your feedback to help make Trapital even better.

Trapital has evolved quite a bit. Our newsletter and podcast continue to get great feedback. Our reports and events have become a cornerstone of what we offer to the community.

Your survey responses will help shape the topics we cover, events we plan, and the sponsors and partners we include that will be most relevant to you and your businesses.

Can you spend 5 minutes and fill out our survey? It's quick, short, and to the point. Even if you've filled out our surveys in previous years, we still want to hear from you.

Thanks in advance! We'll be back next week with a new episode.

Here's the survey:

https://trapital.typeform.com/to/q6mDOFEt

]]> 74 no Where Does Drake Go From Here? https://www.trapital.com/podcast It's crisis management time for Drake. He's in rare territory right now as his reputation has taken a hit. What should his next moves be? What's realistic and what's not? How did we get to this point in the first place? I'm joined by journalist and author, Sowmya Krishnamurthy. We break down Drake's career and what's ahead for Aubrey Graham. Enjoy! Thank you to our sponsors: Songtrust - Start your music publishing journey today Chartmetric - Providing our Stat of the Week! Check out Sowmya's book, Fashion Killa: How Hip-Hop Revolutionized High Fashion Mon, 16 Sep 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Where Does Drake Go From Here? full Dan Runcie It's crisis management time for Drake. He's in rare territory right now as his reputation has taken a hit. What should his next moves be? What's realistic and what's not? How did we get to this point in the first place? I'm joined by journalist and author, Sowmya Krishnamurthy. We break down Drake's career and what's ahead for Aubrey Graham. Enjoy! Thank you to our sponsors: Songtrust - Start your music publishing journey today Chartmetric - Providing our Stat of the Week! Check out Sowmya's book, Fashion Killa: How Hip-Hop Revolutionized High Fashion It's crisis management time for Drake. He's in rare territory right now as his reputation has taken a hit. What should his next moves be? What's realistic and what's not? How did we get to this point in the first place?

I'm joined by journalist and author, Sowmya Krishnamurthy. We break down Drake's career and what's ahead for Aubrey Graham. Enjoy!

Thank you to our sponsors:

Songtrust - Start your music publishing journey today

Chartmetric - Providing our Stat of the Week!


Check out Sowmya's book, Fashion Killa: How Hip-Hop Revolutionized High Fashion

]]> 2350 no Trapital Summit: October 3 in Los Angeles https://www.trapital.com/podcast A few big updates on our Trapital Summit in LA on October 3! Tickets are available here. Use promo code RUNCIE for a discount. You'll hear from  Issa Rae, (writer, producer, actress), Denis Ladegaillerie, (Founder and CEO, Believe), Kakul Srivastava (CEO, Splice), Tunji Balogun (Chairman and CEO, Def Jam), Sherrese Clarke Soares (Founder and CEO, HarbourView Equity Partners), Eliah Seton (CEO, SoundCloud), and Troy Carter (Co-Founder and CEO, Venice Music), Larry Jackson, (Co-Founder and CEO, gamma.), Carletta Higginson, (EVP Chief Digital Officer, Warner Music Group), and Tatiana Cirisano, (Senior Analyst and Consultant, MIDiA). Thanks again to the companies who supported our summit to help make it possible. Our platinum partner is Splice, gold partners are Tidal and Warner Music Group, silver partners are SoundCloud and Too Lost, and our bronze partner is Luminate. We still have some tickets available. You can get them here using promo code RUNCIE for a 10% discount! Mon, 09 Sep 2024 22:44:04 -0000 Trapital Summit: October 3 in Los Angeles full Dan Runcie A few big updates on our Trapital Summit in LA on October 3! Tickets are available here. Use promo code RUNCIE for a discount. You'll hear from  Issa Rae, (writer, producer, actress), Denis Ladegaillerie, (Founder and CEO, Believe), Kakul Srivastava (CEO, Splice), Tunji Balogun (Chairman and CEO, Def Jam), Sherrese Clarke Soares (Founder and CEO, HarbourView Equity Partners), Eliah Seton (CEO, SoundCloud), and Troy Carter (Co-Founder and CEO, Venice Music), Larry Jackson, (Co-Founder and CEO, gamma.), Carletta Higginson, (EVP Chief Digital Officer, Warner Music Group), and Tatiana Cirisano, (Senior Analyst and Consultant, MIDiA). Thanks again to the companies who supported our summit to help make it possible. Our platinum partner is Splice, gold partners are Tidal and Warner Music Group, silver partners are SoundCloud and Too Lost, and our bronze partner is Luminate. We still have some tickets available. You can get them here using promo code RUNCIE for a 10% discount! A few big updates on our Trapital Summit in LA on October 3! Tickets are available here. Use promo code RUNCIE for a discount.

You'll hear from  Issa Rae, (writer, producer, actress), Denis Ladegaillerie, (Founder and CEO, Believe), Kakul Srivastava (CEO, Splice), Tunji Balogun (Chairman and CEO, Def Jam), Sherrese Clarke Soares (Founder and CEO, HarbourView Equity Partners), Eliah Seton (CEO, SoundCloud), and Troy Carter (Co-Founder and CEO, Venice Music), Larry Jackson, (Co-Founder and CEO, gamma.), Carletta Higginson, (EVP Chief Digital Officer, Warner Music Group), and Tatiana Cirisano, (Senior Analyst and Consultant, MIDiA).

Thanks again to the companies who supported our summit to help make it possible. Our platinum partner is Splice, gold partners are Tidal and Warner Music Group, silver partners are SoundCloud and Too Lost, and our bronze partner is Luminate.

We still have some tickets available. You can get them here using promo code RUNCIE for a 10% discount!

]]> 207 no The Oprah Effect https://www.trapital.com/podcast Were you "silent" or "silenced"? We explore Oprah career, from her rise in broadcast, impactful television show, lucrative syndication deals, and how it helped her become a billionaire. We breakdown each of her business ventures, including her book club, magazine, OWN, and various partnerships with Weight Watchers and Apple TV+. I'm joined by Zack O'Malley Greenburg, Listen wherever you get podcasts! Episode sponsors: -State Farm - the coverage for your small business needs: https://shorturl.at/Euwjl -Chartmetric - providing our stat of the week! https://trapital.co/chartmetric/ Make sure you check out our Trapital Summit. Tickets are still available! https://trapital.co/summit/2024 Tue, 03 Sep 2024 09:00:00 -0000 The Oprah Effect full Dan Runcie Were you "silent" or "silenced"? We explore Oprah career, from her rise in broadcast, impactful television show, lucrative syndication deals, and how it helped her become a billionaire. We breakdown each of her business ventures, including her book club, magazine, OWN, and various partnerships with Weight Watchers and Apple TV+. I'm joined by Zack O'Malley Greenburg, Listen wherever you get podcasts! Episode sponsors: -State Farm - the coverage for your small business needs: https://shorturl.at/Euwjl -Chartmetric - providing our stat of the week! https://trapital.co/chartmetric/ Make sure you check out our Trapital Summit. Tickets are still available! https://trapital.co/summit/2024 Were you "silent" or "silenced"? We explore Oprah career, from her rise in broadcast, impactful television show, lucrative syndication deals, and how it helped her become a billionaire. We breakdown each of her business ventures, including her book club, magazine, OWN, and various partnerships with Weight Watchers and Apple TV+.

I'm joined by Zack O'Malley Greenburg, Listen wherever you get podcasts!

Episode sponsors:

-State Farm - the coverage for your small business needs: https://shorturl.at/Euwjl

-Chartmetric - providing our stat of the week! https://trapital.co/chartmetric/

Make sure you check out our Trapital Summit. Tickets are still available! https://trapital.co/summit/2024

]]> 3165 no What Music's Next Growth Phase Will Look Like https://www.trapital.com/podcast Whenever Will Page joins the show, we always go deep in a number of big topics: has music reached "peak oil"? the case for completion in royalty fairness growing impact of glocalization (winners and loser) Carole King and breadth, not depth, or catalogs Will is the author of Pivot, the former chief economist at Spotify, and a consultant for several companies in music. Hope you enjoy! Episode sponsors: -State Farm - the coverage for your small business needs: https://shorturl.at/Euwjl -Chartmetric - providing our stat of the week! https://trapital.co/chartmetric/ Make sure you check out our Trapital Summit. Tickets are still available! Mon, 26 Aug 2024 09:00:00 -0000 What Music's Next Growth Phase Will Look Like full Dan Runcie Whenever Will Page joins the show, we always go deep in a number of big topics: has music reached "peak oil"? the case for completion in royalty fairness growing impact of glocalization (winners and loser) Carole King and breadth, not depth, or catalogs Will is the author of Pivot, the former chief economist at Spotify, and a consultant for several companies in music. Hope you enjoy! Episode sponsors: -State Farm - the coverage for your small business needs: https://shorturl.at/Euwjl -Chartmetric - providing our stat of the week! https://trapital.co/chartmetric/ Make sure you check out our Trapital Summit. Tickets are still available! Whenever Will Page joins the show, we always go deep in a number of big topics:

  • has music reached "peak oil"?
  • the case for completion in royalty fairness
  • growing impact of glocalization (winners and loser)
  • Carole King and breadth, not depth, or catalogs


Will is the author of Pivot, the former chief economist at Spotify, and a consultant for several companies in music. Hope you enjoy!

Episode sponsors:

-State Farm - the coverage for your small business needs: https://shorturl.at/Euwjl

-Chartmetric - providing our stat of the week! https://trapital.co/chartmetric/


Make sure you check out our Trapital Summit. Tickets are still available!

]]> 2495 no Inside the Sphere and the Future of Entertainment https://www.trapital.com/podcast Let's take a trip inside Sphere in Las Vegas. This is a story about James Dolan's wild idea coming to life. We discuss U2's expensive yet lucrative residency, the 'Postcard from Earth' that prints money, and the endless advertising opportunities, and more. We break down the business, strategy, and challenges for the entertainment venue. I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research to break it all down. Listen wherever you get podcasts! Episode sponsors: -Downtown Artist & Label Services - reach your fans wherever they are - https://trapital.co/downtown -State Farm - the coverage for your small business needs: https://shorturl.at/Euwjl -Chartmetric - providing our stat of the week! https://trapital.co/chartmetric/ Mon, 19 Aug 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Inside the Sphere and the Future of Entertainment full Dan Runcie Let's take a trip inside Sphere in Las Vegas. This is a story about James Dolan's wild idea coming to life. We discuss U2's expensive yet lucrative residency, the 'Postcard from Earth' that prints money, and the endless advertising opportunities, and more. We break down the business, strategy, and challenges for the entertainment venue. I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research to break it all down. Listen wherever you get podcasts! Episode sponsors: -Downtown Artist & Label Services - reach your fans wherever they are - https://trapital.co/downtown -State Farm - the coverage for your small business needs: https://shorturl.at/Euwjl -Chartmetric - providing our stat of the week! https://trapital.co/chartmetric/ Let's take a trip inside Sphere in Las Vegas. This is a story about James Dolan's wild idea coming to life. We discuss U2's expensive yet lucrative residency, the 'Postcard from Earth' that prints money, and the endless advertising opportunities, and more. We break down the business, strategy, and challenges for the entertainment venue.

I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research to break it all down. Listen wherever you get podcasts!

Episode sponsors:

-Downtown Artist & Label Services - reach your fans wherever they are - https://trapital.co/downtown

-State Farm - the coverage for your small business needs: https://shorturl.at/Euwjl

-Chartmetric - providing our stat of the week! https://trapital.co/chartmetric/

]]> 2982 no Why The Live Nation-DOJ Lawsuit Missed The Mark https://www.trapital.com/podcast In May, the U.S. Justice Department sued Live Nation - Ticketmaster for "monopolizing markets across the live concert industry," and called for the two companies to be broken up. But the DOJ's lawsuit may be focused on the wrong solution to the problem it wants to solve. In this episode, NYU Steinhardt professor Larry Miller and I break down the case, our issues with the lawsuit, and the best way to improve the concert business for consumers. Learn more about the Trapital Summit here. Join us Oct 3 in LA! This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Make sure you check out our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Mon, 12 Aug 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Why The Live Nation-DOJ Lawsuit Missed The Mark full Dan Runcie In May, the U.S. Justice Department sued Live Nation - Ticketmaster for "monopolizing markets across the live concert industry," and called for the two companies to be broken up. But the DOJ's lawsuit may be focused on the wrong solution to the problem it wants to solve. In this episode, NYU Steinhardt professor Larry Miller and I break down the case, our issues with the lawsuit, and the best way to improve the concert business for consumers. Learn more about the Trapital Summit here. Join us Oct 3 in LA! This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Make sure you check out our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. In May, the U.S. Justice Department sued Live Nation - Ticketmaster for "monopolizing markets across the live concert industry," and called for the two companies to be broken up. But the DOJ's lawsuit may be focused on the wrong solution to the problem it wants to solve.

In this episode, NYU Steinhardt professor Larry Miller and I break down the case, our issues with the lawsuit, and the best way to improve the concert business for consumers.


Learn more about the Trapital Summit here. Join us Oct 3 in LA!

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Make sure you check out our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 2108 no StubHub: The Complicated World of Reselling Tickets https://www.trapital.com/podcast StubHub has IPO plans this year, so it was the perfect time to breakdown the complicated, controversial, and crazy story of this ticket resale marketplace. We discuss its 25-year history, M&A, impact on the live concert business, and ways to improve the secondary ticketing experience for fans. I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Hope you enjoy! Learn more about the Trapital Summit here. Join us Oct 3 in LA! This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Make sure you check out our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Learn more about Alts music investor trip to Nashville! Mon, 05 Aug 2024 09:00:00 -0000 StubHub: The Complicated World of Reselling Tickets full Dan Runcie StubHub has IPO plans this year, so it was the perfect time to breakdown the complicated, controversial, and crazy story of this ticket resale marketplace. We discuss its 25-year history, M&A, impact on the live concert business, and ways to improve the secondary ticketing experience for fans. I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Hope you enjoy! Learn more about the Trapital Summit here. Join us Oct 3 in LA! This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Make sure you check out our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Learn more about Alts music investor trip to Nashville! StubHub has IPO plans this year, so it was the perfect time to breakdown the complicated, controversial, and crazy story of this ticket resale marketplace. We discuss its 25-year history, M&A, impact on the live concert business, and ways to improve the secondary ticketing experience for fans.

I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Hope you enjoy!



Learn more about the Trapital Summit here. Join us Oct 3 in LA!

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Make sure you check out our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

Learn more about Alts music investor trip to Nashville!

]]> 2801 no 50 Cent: From Trolling to Triumph https://www.trapital.com/podcast There are very few people in entertainment who move quite like 50 Cent. He's a true One of One, and the focus for today's episode. We break down his origins in music. From Jam Master Jay to Trackmasters, from "How to Rob" to his mixtape run, the highs of Get Rich or Die Tryin', the brand deals, influence, drama, and where he is today. The man turned trolling into a full time profession. I'm joined by Zack O'Malley Greenburg, friend of the pod, who interviewed 50 during his time at Forbes. Hope you enjoy! Learn more about the Trapital Summit here. Join us Oct 3 in LA! This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Make sure you check out our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Mon, 29 Jul 2024 13:30:00 -0000 50 Cent: From Trolling to Triumph full Dan Runcie There are very few people in entertainment who move quite like 50 Cent. He's a true One of One, and the focus for today's episode. We break down his origins in music. From Jam Master Jay to Trackmasters, from "How to Rob" to his mixtape run, the highs of Get Rich or Die Tryin', the brand deals, influence, drama, and where he is today. The man turned trolling into a full time profession. I'm joined by Zack O'Malley Greenburg, friend of the pod, who interviewed 50 during his time at Forbes. Hope you enjoy! Learn more about the Trapital Summit here. Join us Oct 3 in LA! This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Make sure you check out our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. There are very few people in entertainment who move quite like 50 Cent. He's a true One of One, and the focus for today's episode.

We break down his origins in music. From Jam Master Jay to Trackmasters, from "How to Rob" to his mixtape run, the highs of Get Rich or Die Tryin', the brand deals, influence, drama, and where he is today. The man turned trolling into a full time profession.

I'm joined by Zack O'Malley Greenburg, friend of the pod, who interviewed 50 during his time at Forbes. Hope you enjoy!



Learn more about the Trapital Summit here. Join us Oct 3 in LA!

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Make sure you check out our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.


]]> 3013 no Who Wins When There's More Music Than Ever? https://www.trapital.com/podcast A handful of artists are having their moment. Sabrina Carpenter, Chappell Roan, Coco Jones, Victoria Monet, the list goes on. Will these artists be as big as Beyonce? Who knows, but they broke through an industry that becomes harder and harder to break through. But how does this change the strategy for the major labels? How are the companies outside of the label system handlling things differently. What do the economics of a true non-superstar model look like? To break it all down, I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. We first visited this topic in 2022, but so much has changed since then. Hope you enjoy! This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Make sure you check out Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Mon, 08 Jul 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Who Wins When There's More Music Than Ever? full Dan Runcie A handful of artists are having their moment. Sabrina Carpenter, Chappell Roan, Coco Jones, Victoria Monet, the list goes on. Will these artists be as big as Beyonce? Who knows, but they broke through an industry that becomes harder and harder to break through. But how does this change the strategy for the major labels? How are the companies outside of the label system handlling things differently. What do the economics of a true non-superstar model look like? To break it all down, I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. We first visited this topic in 2022, but so much has changed since then. Hope you enjoy! This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Make sure you check out Chartmetric Stat of the Week. A handful of artists are having their moment. Sabrina Carpenter, Chappell Roan, Coco Jones, Victoria Monet, the list goes on. Will these artists be as big as Beyonce? Who knows, but they broke through an industry that becomes harder and harder to break through.

But how does this change the strategy for the major labels? How are the companies outside of the label system handlling things differently. What do the economics of a true non-superstar model look like?

To break it all down, I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. We first visited this topic in 2022, but so much has changed since then. Hope you enjoy!

This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Make sure you check out Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 2221 no Quincy Jones: One of Ones https://www.trapital.com/podcast We're introducing a new series in Trapital called One of Ones! We'll break down some of the most important moguls and executives in music, media, and entertainment. Our first one is on Quincy Jones. We discuss how his upbringing shapes his strategy in business, his leadership style compared to Motown founder Berry Gordy, Michael Jackson, two truths and a lie, and more. This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Make sure you check out Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Fri, 28 Jun 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Quincy Jones: One of Ones full Dan Runcie We're introducing a new series in Trapital called One of Ones! We'll break down some of the most important moguls and executives in music, media, and entertainment. Our first one is on Quincy Jones. We discuss how his upbringing shapes his strategy in business, his leadership style compared to Motown founder Berry Gordy, Michael Jackson, two truths and a lie, and more. This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Make sure you check out Chartmetric Stat of the Week. We're introducing a new series in Trapital called One of Ones! We'll break down some of the most important moguls and executives in music, media, and entertainment.

Our first one is on Quincy Jones. We discuss how his upbringing shapes his strategy in business, his leadership style compared to Motown founder Berry Gordy, Michael Jackson, two truths and a lie, and more.


This episode is presented by State Farm, the home for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Make sure you check out Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 2706 no Arena Tours: The Art and Science Behind Sold Out Shows https://www.trapital.com/podcast We've all seen the headlines: another well-known artist struggles to sell tickets to their arena shows. But there are plenty of artists selling out those same venues. So what's really going on? I'm joined by CAA agent Akin Aliu to break it all down. We discuss the post-pandemic touring landscape and the role of each stakeholder: artists, managers, agents, promoters, venues, and more. They each have different incentives that shape the economics, and the product that hits the streets. This episode is presented by State Farm: the coverage for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Make sure you check out our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. Fri, 21 Jun 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Arena Tours: The Art and Science Behind Sold Out Shows full Dan Runcie We've all seen the headlines: another well-known artist struggles to sell tickets to their arena shows. But there are plenty of artists selling out those same venues. So what's really going on? I'm joined by CAA agent Akin Aliu to break it all down. We discuss the post-pandemic touring landscape and the role of each stakeholder: artists, managers, agents, promoters, venues, and more. They each have different incentives that shape the economics, and the product that hits the streets. This episode is presented by State Farm: the coverage for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Make sure you check out our Chartmetric Stat of the Week. We've all seen the headlines: another well-known artist struggles to sell tickets to their arena shows. But there are plenty of artists selling out those same venues. So what's really going on?

I'm joined by CAA agent Akin Aliu to break it all down. We discuss the post-pandemic touring landscape and the role of each stakeholder: artists, managers, agents, promoters, venues, and more. They each have different incentives that shape the economics, and the product that hits the streets.


This episode is presented by State Farm: the coverage for your small business needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Make sure you check out our Chartmetric Stat of the Week.

]]> 1894 no Why Now Is The Best Time to Be An Artist https://www.trapital.com/podcast Depending on who you ask, it's either the best or worst time to be an artist. There's plenty of evidence on both sides. Today, we're breaking down all of that and more. I'm joined by beatBread's Peter Sinclair. We covered it all: why it's the best time to be an artist but why it's harder to be an omnipresent superstar the role and perception of Spotify, YouTube, and DSPs making it in music today vs. the CD era the impact of a great producer and a guest verse why it's harder than ever to be the bigger This was a jam packed episode. Hope you enjoy! This episode is presented by State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric stat of the episode! Fri, 14 Jun 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Why Now Is The Best Time to Be An Artist full Dan Runcie Depending on who you ask, it's either the best or worst time to be an artist. There's plenty of evidence on both sides. Today, we're breaking down all of that and more. I'm joined by beatBread's Peter Sinclair. We covered it all: why it's the best time to be an artist but why it's harder to be an omnipresent superstar the role and perception of Spotify, YouTube, and DSPs making it in music today vs. the CD era the impact of a great producer and a guest verse why it's harder than ever to be the bigger This was a jam packed episode. Hope you enjoy! This episode is presented by State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Listen in for our Chartmetric stat of the episode! Depending on who you ask, it's either the best or worst time to be an artist. There's plenty of evidence on both sides. Today, we're breaking down all of that and more.

I'm joined by beatBread's Peter Sinclair. We covered it all:

  • why it's the best time to be an artist
  • but why it's harder to be an omnipresent superstar
  • the role and perception of Spotify, YouTube, and DSPs
  • making it in music today vs. the CD era
  • the impact of a great producer and a guest verse
  • why it's harder than ever to be the bigger


This was a jam packed episode. Hope you enjoy!


This episode is presented by State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Listen in for our Chartmetric stat of the episode!

]]> 2137 no A24 Wants to Evolve, But Can it Maintain its Brand? https://www.trapital.com/podcast Let's dive deep into the world of A24, the film studio known for its distinctive approach to storytelling. We explore A24’s journey from a savvy film distributor to a powerhouse production studio with hits like "Moonlight" and "Everything, Everywhere, All at Once." But A24 faces some headwinds: big investments with higher expectations, a string of underperforming releases, and pressure to expand to bigger budget IP. How can the brand known for its mystique be able to maintain its unique positioning? I'm joined by friend of the pod, Dr. Marcus Collins, to break it all down. Make sure you listen for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week! Fri, 07 Jun 2024 09:00:00 -0000 A24 Wants to Evolve, But Can it Maintain its Brand? full Dan Runcie Let's dive deep into the world of A24, the film studio known for its distinctive approach to storytelling. We explore A24’s journey from a savvy film distributor to a powerhouse production studio with hits like "Moonlight" and "Everything, Everywhere, All at Once." But A24 faces some headwinds: big investments with higher expectations, a string of underperforming releases, and pressure to expand to bigger budget IP. How can the brand known for its mystique be able to maintain its unique positioning? I'm joined by friend of the pod, Dr. Marcus Collins, to break it all down. Make sure you listen for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week! Let's dive deep into the world of A24, the film studio known for its distinctive approach to storytelling. We explore A24’s journey from a savvy film distributor to a powerhouse production studio with hits like "Moonlight" and "Everything, Everywhere, All at Once."

But A24 faces some headwinds: big investments with higher expectations, a string of underperforming releases, and pressure to expand to bigger budget IP.

How can the brand known for its mystique be able to maintain its unique positioning?

I'm joined by friend of the pod, Dr. Marcus Collins, to break it all down.


Make sure you listen for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week!

]]> 2224 no Why Top Artists Stick with Major Labels https://www.trapital.com/podcast The biggest stars in the world, like Taylor Swift, Kendrick Lamar, and Drake, have all the leverage to go independent, but they continue to work with the major labels. A big reason why is that they sign licensing deals. These deals have shifted over time, and become much more artists friendly, especially for the superstars in the streaming era. We break down the different types of deals, how they’ve shifted over time, and unique case studies like Brent Faiyaz, Kanye West, and more. I’m joined by Brian “Z” Zisook from Audiomack, who is a wealth of knowledge on this topic. This episode is brought to you by EVEN. Buy the art from the artist. Learn more at https://get.even.biz/trapital This episode is also brought to you by SymphonyOS, the marketing platform for today’s creative businesses. Learn more at https://symphony.to/trapital Make sure you listen for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week! Fri, 31 May 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Why Top Artists Stick with Major Labels full Dan Runcie The biggest stars in the world, like Taylor Swift, Kendrick Lamar, and Drake, have all the leverage to go independent, but they continue to work with the major labels. A big reason why is that they sign licensing deals. These deals have shifted over time, and become much more artists friendly, especially for the superstars in the streaming era. We break down the different types of deals, how they’ve shifted over time, and unique case studies like Brent Faiyaz, Kanye West, and more. I’m joined by Brian “Z” Zisook from Audiomack, who is a wealth of knowledge on this topic. This episode is brought to you by EVEN. Buy the art from the artist. Learn more at https://get.even.biz/trapital This episode is also brought to you by SymphonyOS, the marketing platform for today’s creative businesses. Learn more at https://symphony.to/trapital Make sure you listen for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week! The biggest stars in the world, like Taylor Swift, Kendrick Lamar, and Drake, have all the leverage to go independent, but they continue to work with the major labels. A big reason why is that they sign licensing deals. These deals have shifted over time, and become much more artists friendly, especially for the superstars in the streaming era.

We break down the different types of deals, how they’ve shifted over time, and unique case studies like Brent Faiyaz, Kanye West, and more.

I’m joined by Brian “Z” Zisook from Audiomack, who is a wealth of knowledge on this topic.


This episode is brought to you by EVEN. Buy the art from the artist. Learn more at https://get.even.biz/trapital


This episode is also brought to you by SymphonyOS, the marketing platform for today’s creative businesses. Learn more at https://symphony.to/trapital


Make sure you listen for our Chartmetric Stat of the Week!

]]> 1792 no The Generative AI Music Sweepstakes https://www.trapital.com/podcast The market is booming for generative music. Suno raised $125M and Udio has raised over $10M. The tools are impressive, but they raise some important questions: What data are these products trained on? Are startups in music incentivized to ask for permission? Is this what 'IG for music' looks like? Are these products or features? I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Hope you enjoy listening. Make sure you listen to our Chartmetric stat of the episode! Fri, 24 May 2024 09:00:00 -0000 The Generative AI Music Sweepstakes full Dan Runcie The market is booming for generative music. Suno raised $125M and Udio has raised over $10M. The tools are impressive, but they raise some important questions: What data are these products trained on? Are startups in music incentivized to ask for permission? Is this what 'IG for music' looks like? Are these products or features? I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Hope you enjoy listening. Make sure you listen to our Chartmetric stat of the episode! The market is booming for generative music. Suno raised $125M and Udio has raised over $10M. The tools are impressive, but they raise some important questions:


  • What data are these products trained on?
  • Are startups in music incentivized to ask for permission?
  • Is this what 'IG for music' looks like?
  • Are these products or features?


I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Hope you enjoy listening.

Make sure you listen to our Chartmetric stat of the episode!

]]> 1920 no Why NPR Tiny Desk Is Still a Phenomenon https://www.trapital.com/podcast NPR Tiny Desk is 15 years old and arguably stronger than ever. It helped Usher perform at the Super Bowl. It helped Tank and the Bangas break through to a Grammy nomination. And it elevated the perception of artists like T-Pain and Mac Miller. But how does Tiny Desk maintain its influence? Any company can host a stripped-down acoustic series for artists to perform in their office. But even if they did, it wouldn't hit the same. In this episode, we break down the dynamics that make Tiny Desk work, the tradeoffs that the show balances, how it maintains its status over time, and what the future may hold. Listen to me and Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research break it all down. Make sure you listen to our Chartmetric stat of the episode. Fri, 17 May 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Why NPR Tiny Desk Is Still a Phenomenon full Dan Runcie NPR Tiny Desk is 15 years old and arguably stronger than ever. It helped Usher perform at the Super Bowl. It helped Tank and the Bangas break through to a Grammy nomination. And it elevated the perception of artists like T-Pain and Mac Miller. But how does Tiny Desk maintain its influence? Any company can host a stripped-down acoustic series for artists to perform in their office. But even if they did, it wouldn't hit the same. In this episode, we break down the dynamics that make Tiny Desk work, the tradeoffs that the show balances, how it maintains its status over time, and what the future may hold. Listen to me and Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research break it all down. Make sure you listen to our Chartmetric stat of the episode. NPR Tiny Desk is 15 years old and arguably stronger than ever. It helped Usher perform at the Super Bowl. It helped Tank and the Bangas break through to a Grammy nomination. And it elevated the perception of artists like T-Pain and Mac Miller.

But how does Tiny Desk maintain its influence? Any company can host a stripped-down acoustic series for artists to perform in their office. But even if they did, it wouldn't hit the same.

In this episode, we break down the dynamics that make Tiny Desk work, the tradeoffs that the show balances, how it maintains its status over time, and what the future may hold.

Listen to me and Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research break it all down.


Make sure you listen to our Chartmetric stat of the episode.

]]> 2110 no Why Penske Bought All The Media Companies https://www.trapital.com/podcast The list of brands that Penske Media Corporation owns or has invested in is long: Billboard, Variety, The Hollywood Reporter, Rolling Stone, Music Business Worldwide, Deadline, and dozens more. What's Penske's long game? Are these companies better off? Where would these companies be without Penske? Which companies are most likely next? To break it all down, I'm joined by Bill Werde, former Billboard editorial director, author of Full Rate No Cap, and the Director of Bandier Program of Recording and Entertainment and Syracuse’s Newhouse School. This episode is brought to you by 4se New York, where sports and entertainment come alive. Make sure you check out our Chartmetric stat of the episode. Fri, 10 May 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Why Penske Bought All The Media Companies full Dan Runcie The list of brands that Penske Media Corporation owns or has invested in is long: Billboard, Variety, The Hollywood Reporter, Rolling Stone, Music Business Worldwide, Deadline, and dozens more. What's Penske's long game? Are these companies better off? Where would these companies be without Penske? Which companies are most likely next? To break it all down, I'm joined by Bill Werde, former Billboard editorial director, author of Full Rate No Cap, and the Director of Bandier Program of Recording and Entertainment and Syracuse’s Newhouse School. This episode is brought to you by 4se New York, where sports and entertainment come alive. Make sure you check out our Chartmetric stat of the episode. The list of brands that Penske Media Corporation owns or has invested in is long: Billboard, Variety, The Hollywood Reporter, Rolling Stone, Music Business Worldwide, Deadline, and dozens more.

What's Penske's long game? Are these companies better off? Where would these companies be without Penske? Which companies are most likely next?

To break it all down, I'm joined by Bill Werde, former Billboard editorial director, author of Full Rate No Cap, and the Director of Bandier Program of Recording and Entertainment and Syracuse’s Newhouse School.


This episode is brought to you by 4se New York, where sports and entertainment come alive.

Make sure you check out our Chartmetric stat of the episode.

]]> 2513 no How Hip-Hop Beef Evolved in the Streaming Era https://www.trapital.com/podcast While Drake and Kendrick Lamar trade diss tracks back and forth, we decided to dig into the engine that makes it all possible. How has rap beef evolved in the streaming era and social media? Do the stakes still matter? Who makes money from these beef? How does this impact hip-hop's "decline"? I'm joined by BrandMan Sean, our friend of the pod who had a lot to say about this. Listen here or wherever you get podcasts! Make sure you listen to our Chartmetric stat of the week. Fri, 03 May 2024 09:00:00 -0000 How Hip-Hop Beef Evolved in the Streaming Era full Dan Runcie While Drake and Kendrick Lamar trade diss tracks back and forth, we decided to dig into the engine that makes it all possible. How has rap beef evolved in the streaming era and social media? Do the stakes still matter? Who makes money from these beef? How does this impact hip-hop's "decline"? I'm joined by BrandMan Sean, our friend of the pod who had a lot to say about this. Listen here or wherever you get podcasts! Make sure you listen to our Chartmetric stat of the week. While Drake and Kendrick Lamar trade diss tracks back and forth, we decided to dig into the engine that makes it all possible. How has rap beef evolved in the streaming era and social media? Do the stakes still matter? Who makes money from these beef? How does this impact hip-hop's "decline"?

I'm joined by BrandMan Sean, our friend of the pod who had a lot to say about this. Listen here or wherever you get podcasts!


Make sure you listen to our Chartmetric stat of the week.

]]> 2089 no Inside KKR's Investments in Music https://www.trapital.com/podcast Private equity firm KKR has been fascinating to watch in the music rights landscape. Just when you thought they were out, they get pulled back in! In this episode, we break down the past few years of KKR's deals with Chord Music, Kobalt, HarbourView Equity Partners. Why did they sell Chord Music? Why did they partner with HarbourView? What does it say about the broader music rights investing landscape. Listen to me and Anna Nicolaou from the Financial Times break it all down. 00:00 KKR's $500M debt deal with Harborview 07:24 How rising interest rates affect the valuation of music 14:50 KKR vs other players in the industry 22:15 The role of UMG in the music rights landscape 30:25 Predictions on the current bidding wars This episode was brought to you by 4se New York, the sports and entertainment event on May 21-22. Learn more here. Make sure you listen for our Chartmetric stat of the week. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 26 Apr 2024 09:30:00 -0000 Inside KKR's Investments in Music full Dan Runcie Private equity firm KKR has been fascinating to watch in the music rights landscape. Just when you thought they were out, they get pulled back in! In this episode, we break down the past few years of KKR's deals with Chord Music, Kobalt, HarbourView Equity Partners. Why did they sell Chord Music? Why did they partner with HarbourView? What does it say about the broader music rights investing landscape. Listen to me and Anna Nicolaou from the Financial Times break it all down. 00:00 KKR's $500M debt deal with Harborview 07:24 How rising interest rates affect the valuation of music 14:50 KKR vs other players in the industry 22:15 The role of UMG in the music rights landscape 30:25 Predictions on the current bidding wars This episode was brought to you by 4se New York, the sports and entertainment event on May 21-22. Learn more here. Make sure you listen for our Chartmetric stat of the week. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Private equity firm KKR has been fascinating to watch in the music rights landscape. Just when you thought they were out, they get pulled back in!

In this episode, we break down the past few years of KKR's deals with Chord Music, Kobalt, HarbourView Equity Partners. Why did they sell Chord Music? Why did they partner with HarbourView? What does it say about the broader music rights investing landscape.

Listen to me and Anna Nicolaou from the Financial Times break it all down.

00:00 KKR's $500M debt deal with Harborview

07:24 How rising interest rates affect the valuation of music

14:50 KKR vs other players in the industry

22:15 The role of UMG in the music rights landscape

30:25 Predictions on the current bidding wars

This episode was brought to you by 4se New York, the sports and entertainment event on May 21-22. Learn more here.

Make sure you listen for our Chartmetric stat of the week.

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 1762 no What Taylor Swift's Return to TikTok Means for Universal Music Group https://www.trapital.com/podcast On April 11, Taylor Swift’s songs reappeared on TikTok despite the platform's ongoing dispute with her record label, Universal Music Group. This move was made in advance of the release of Taylor’s 11th studio album, The Tortured Poets Department. On this episode of Trapital, Tatiana Cirisano and I discuss why Swift and UMG don’t see eye-to-eye, competing incentives, who’s in charge at UMG, and more. 00:00 Why we’re not surprised Taylor Swift made this move 07:52 Why Swift and UMG have competing incentives 13:37 What it means for UMG and TikTok moving forward 24:27 Who’s the most powerful person in the music industry? This episode is brought to you by EVEN, where you buy the art from the artist. Learn more at https://get.even.biz/trapital Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 19 Apr 2024 09:00:00 -0000 What Taylor Swift's Return to TikTok Means for Universal Music Group full Dan Runcie On April 11, Taylor Swift’s songs reappeared on TikTok despite the platform's ongoing dispute with her record label, Universal Music Group. This move was made in advance of the release of Taylor’s 11th studio album, The Tortured Poets Department. On this episode of Trapital, Tatiana Cirisano and I discuss why Swift and UMG don’t see eye-to-eye, competing incentives, who’s in charge at UMG, and more. 00:00 Why we’re not surprised Taylor Swift made this move 07:52 Why Swift and UMG have competing incentives 13:37 What it means for UMG and TikTok moving forward 24:27 Who’s the most powerful person in the music industry? This episode is brought to you by EVEN, where you buy the art from the artist. Learn more at https://get.even.biz/trapital Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. On April 11, Taylor Swift’s songs reappeared on TikTok despite the platform's ongoing dispute with her record label, Universal Music Group. This move was made in advance of the release of Taylor’s 11th studio album, The Tortured Poets Department.

On this episode of Trapital, Tatiana Cirisano and I discuss why Swift and UMG don’t see eye-to-eye, competing incentives, who’s in charge at UMG, and more.


00:00 Why we’re not surprised Taylor Swift made this move

07:52 Why Swift and UMG have competing incentives

13:37 What it means for UMG and TikTok moving forward

24:27 Who’s the most powerful person in the music industry?


This episode is brought to you by EVEN, where you buy the art from the artist. Learn more at https://get.even.biz/trapital

Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week!

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 2191 no What's Next for Diddy's Businesses? https://www.trapital.com/podcast We've had plenty of conversations on Trapital about Diddy's business success, so we have to keep that same energy when outlook changes. On this episode, Zack O'Malley Greenburg and I talk about our initial reactions to the allegations surrounding Sean Combs, and we talk about the present state and future of the biggest businesses in his portfolio. Make sure you listen for our Chartmetric stat of the episode Fri, 12 Apr 2024 09:00:00 -0000 What's Next for Diddy's Businesses? full Dan Runcie We've had plenty of conversations on Trapital about Diddy's business success, so we have to keep that same energy when outlook changes. On this episode, Zack O'Malley Greenburg and I talk about our initial reactions to the allegations surrounding Sean Combs, and we talk about the present state and future of the biggest businesses in his portfolio. Make sure you listen for our Chartmetric stat of the episode We've had plenty of conversations on Trapital about Diddy's business success, so we have to keep that same energy when outlook changes.


On this episode, Zack O'Malley Greenburg and I talk about our initial reactions to the allegations surrounding Sean Combs, and we talk about the present state and future of the biggest businesses in his portfolio.


Make sure you listen for our Chartmetric stat of the episode

]]> 1695 no Do Music Festivals Have a Superstar Problem? https://www.trapital.com/podcast Despite the all-time record highs for the live music industry, music festivals haven't quite had the same post-pandemic recovery. Several well-known festivals have closed up shop, and others have had slower than usual demand (even Coachella!) To break it all down, I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Hope you enjoy! Make sure you check out our Chartmetric stat of the episode! Fri, 05 Apr 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Do Music Festivals Have a Superstar Problem? full Dan Runcie Despite the all-time record highs for the live music industry, music festivals haven't quite had the same post-pandemic recovery. Several well-known festivals have closed up shop, and others have had slower than usual demand (even Coachella!) To break it all down, I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Hope you enjoy! Make sure you check out our Chartmetric stat of the episode! Despite the all-time record highs for the live music industry, music festivals haven't quite had the same post-pandemic recovery. Several well-known festivals have closed up shop, and others have had slower than usual demand (even Coachella!)


To break it all down, I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Hope you enjoy!


Make sure you check out our Chartmetric stat of the episode!

]]> 2074 no Do Major Record Labels Still Have Brand Identity? https://www.trapital.com/podcast Back in the day, each record label had a distinct consumer identity. In the 90s, you knew what to expect from an Interscope album. Def Jam, Jive, Uptown, Cash Money. They all had their own vibe, their own identity, their own brand. So... what the hell happened? In the episode, we talk about how music's landscape shifted, and took the consumer brands with it. Strong brands still exist today among today's music companies, but they operate more like B2B brands than B2C brands. I'm joined by Justin Hunte, music journalist, startup advisor, and former Editor-in-Chief of HipHopDX, and we break it all down. 04:20 Def Jam's fight for legitimacy and innovation. 06:59 Federal Communications Act - media consolidation impact 12:08 Media success relies on standing on giants' shoulders. 16:36 Hybe's Weverse maximizes label and artist reach. 18:21 Maximizing super fans to boost revenue. Consolidation. 23:07 Shift in entertainment from pandemic to 2024. 25:41 Changing music industry, companies adapting to trends. 28:37 Brand identity crucial; industry accolades have limits. 31:31 Share, rate, and spread the word. Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 29 Mar 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Do Major Record Labels Still Have Brand Identity? full Dan Runcie Back in the day, each record label had a distinct consumer identity. In the 90s, you knew what to expect from an Interscope album. Def Jam, Jive, Uptown, Cash Money. They all had their own vibe, their own identity, their own brand. So... what the hell happened? In the episode, we talk about how music's landscape shifted, and took the consumer brands with it. Strong brands still exist today among today's music companies, but they operate more like B2B brands than B2C brands. I'm joined by Justin Hunte, music journalist, startup advisor, and former Editor-in-Chief of HipHopDX, and we break it all down. 04:20 Def Jam's fight for legitimacy and innovation. 06:59 Federal Communications Act - media consolidation impact 12:08 Media success relies on standing on giants' shoulders. 16:36 Hybe's Weverse maximizes label and artist reach. 18:21 Maximizing super fans to boost revenue. Consolidation. 23:07 Shift in entertainment from pandemic to 2024. 25:41 Changing music industry, companies adapting to trends. 28:37 Brand identity crucial; industry accolades have limits. 31:31 Share, rate, and spread the word. Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Back in the day, each record label had a distinct consumer identity. In the 90s, you knew what to expect from an Interscope album. Def Jam, Jive, Uptown, Cash Money. They all had their own vibe, their own identity, their own brand.

So... what the hell happened?

In the episode, we talk about how music's landscape shifted, and took the consumer brands with it. Strong brands still exist today among today's music companies, but they operate more like B2B brands than B2C brands.

I'm joined by Justin Hunte, music journalist, startup advisor, and former Editor-in-Chief of HipHopDX, and we break it all down.


04:20 Def Jam's fight for legitimacy and innovation.

06:59 Federal Communications Act - media consolidation impact

12:08 Media success relies on standing on giants' shoulders.

16:36 Hybe's Weverse maximizes label and artist reach.

18:21 Maximizing super fans to boost revenue. Consolidation.

23:07 Shift in entertainment from pandemic to 2024.

25:41 Changing music industry, companies adapting to trends.

28:37 Brand identity crucial; industry accolades have limits.

31:31 Share, rate, and spread the word.


Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week!

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 1917 no UMG vs TikTok, Kids’ Music, and Beyonce - Verizon (Trapital mailbag episode) https://www.trapital.com/podcast It's time to dig into the mailbag again. I asked Trapital listeners to send me their most burning questions about the music industry. But this time we’re doing things a bit differently: you’ll be hearing the questions directly from our listeners. We dug into the TikTok vs. UMGc dispute, children’s entertainment media, and the Beyoncé - Verizon relationship leading to album ‘Act II: Cowboy Carter.” 00:00 UMG vs TikTok 15:17 Kids’ music 19:55 Beyoncé, Verizon, and Cowboy Carter Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 22 Mar 2024 09:00:00 -0000 UMG vs TikTok, Kids’ Music, and Beyonce - Verizon (Trapital mailbag episode) full Dan Runcie It's time to dig into the mailbag again. I asked Trapital listeners to send me their most burning questions about the music industry. But this time we’re doing things a bit differently: you’ll be hearing the questions directly from our listeners. We dug into the TikTok vs. UMGc dispute, children’s entertainment media, and the Beyoncé - Verizon relationship leading to album ‘Act II: Cowboy Carter.” 00:00 UMG vs TikTok 15:17 Kids’ music 19:55 Beyoncé, Verizon, and Cowboy Carter Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. It's time to dig into the mailbag again. I asked Trapital listeners to send me their most burning questions about the music industry. But this time we’re doing things a bit differently: you’ll be hearing the questions directly from our listeners.

We dug into the TikTok vs. UMGc dispute, children’s entertainment media, and the Beyoncé - Verizon relationship leading to album ‘Act II: Cowboy Carter.”

00:00 UMG vs TikTok 15:17 Kids’ music 19:55 Beyoncé, Verizon, and Cowboy Carter

Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week!

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 1781 no What’s Next For Concert Films? https://www.trapital.com/podcast 2023 was a big year for concert films. Taylor Swift's “Eras Tour” film became the highest grossing concert film of all time with nearly $270M in worldwide box office gross. Beyonce’s Renaissance film grossed over $44M. Was this just a Beyonce and Taylor thing, or will this continue? In this episode, I’m joined by Jimmy Stone, Founder of Alderbrook Companies, to dive deep into the rise of concert films, the economics behind them, the highest grossing concert films of all time, and so much more. At the end of our conversation, we also included an audio segment of the guest essay that Jimmy wrote for Trapital: “What Is Driving The Rise Of Concert Films?” 00:00 Why are concert films becoming so popular? 06:50 Transmedia storytelling in music 12:48 The economics of concert films 21:11 Which artist could make a successful concert film in 2024? 31:22 Jimmy’s essay: What Is Driving The Rise Of Concert Films? Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 15 Mar 2024 09:00:00 -0000 What’s Next For Concert Films? full Dan Runcie 2023 was a big year for concert films. Taylor Swift's “Eras Tour” film became the highest grossing concert film of all time with nearly $270M in worldwide box office gross. Beyonce’s Renaissance film grossed over $44M. Was this just a Beyonce and Taylor thing, or will this continue? In this episode, I’m joined by Jimmy Stone, Founder of Alderbrook Companies, to dive deep into the rise of concert films, the economics behind them, the highest grossing concert films of all time, and so much more. At the end of our conversation, we also included an audio segment of the guest essay that Jimmy wrote for Trapital: “What Is Driving The Rise Of Concert Films?” 00:00 Why are concert films becoming so popular? 06:50 Transmedia storytelling in music 12:48 The economics of concert films 21:11 Which artist could make a successful concert film in 2024? 31:22 Jimmy’s essay: What Is Driving The Rise Of Concert Films? Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. 2023 was a big year for concert films. Taylor Swift's “Eras Tour” film became the highest grossing concert film of all time with nearly $270M in worldwide box office gross. Beyonce’s Renaissance film grossed over $44M. Was this just a Beyonce and Taylor thing, or will this continue?

In this episode, I’m joined by Jimmy Stone, Founder of Alderbrook Companies, to dive deep into the rise of concert films, the economics behind them, the highest grossing concert films of all time, and so much more.

At the end of our conversation, we also included an audio segment of the guest essay that Jimmy wrote for Trapital: “What Is Driving The Rise Of Concert Films?”

00:00 Why are concert films becoming so popular? 06:50 Transmedia storytelling in music 12:48 The economics of concert films 21:11 Which artist could make a successful concert film in 2024? 31:22 Jimmy’s essay: What Is Driving The Rise Of Concert Films?

Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week!

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 2299 no Why We’re Still Early on AI Music https://www.trapital.com/podcast There’s been a lot of discussion (and concern) about the impact of generative AI on music and whether the industry is on the verge of another Napster moment. But according to Jessica Powell, CEO of AudioShake, it’s going to take a lot more than a text prompt to kill music as we know it. On today’s episode, Jessica and I did a dive deep into the rise of generative music, its actual opportunities, and what it means for the industry moving forward. At the end of our conversation, we also included an audio version of the essay that Jessica wrote for Trapital: “Is Generative Music Really the Next Napster?” 00:00 Will AI music have a Napster moment? 08:07 The rise of generative music 12:14 Main challenges and opportunities 20:26 Audio essay: “Is Generative Music Really the Next Napster?” Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 08 Mar 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Why We’re Still Early on AI Music full Dan Runcie There’s been a lot of discussion (and concern) about the impact of generative AI on music and whether the industry is on the verge of another Napster moment. But according to Jessica Powell, CEO of AudioShake, it’s going to take a lot more than a text prompt to kill music as we know it. On today’s episode, Jessica and I did a dive deep into the rise of generative music, its actual opportunities, and what it means for the industry moving forward. At the end of our conversation, we also included an audio version of the essay that Jessica wrote for Trapital: “Is Generative Music Really the Next Napster?” 00:00 Will AI music have a Napster moment? 08:07 The rise of generative music 12:14 Main challenges and opportunities 20:26 Audio essay: “Is Generative Music Really the Next Napster?” Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. There’s been a lot of discussion (and concern) about the impact of generative AI on music and whether the industry is on the verge of another Napster moment. But according to Jessica Powell, CEO of AudioShake, it’s going to take a lot more than a text prompt to kill music as we know it.

On today’s episode, Jessica and I did a dive deep into the rise of generative music, its actual opportunities, and what it means for the industry moving forward.

At the end of our conversation, we also included an audio version of the essay that Jessica wrote for Trapital: “Is Generative Music Really the Next Napster?”


00:00 Will AI music have a Napster moment?

08:07 The rise of generative music

12:14 Main challenges and opportunities

20:26 Audio essay: “Is Generative Music Really the Next Napster?”


Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week!

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 1663 no The Oscars: Hit Songs, All the Drama, and Tons of Money https://www.trapital.com/podcast This episode is about Hollywood's biggest night, the Academy Awards. I’m joined by friend of the pod Zack O'Malley Greenburg to dive deep into the Oscars, how it compares to the Grammys, its relationship with music, the money spent on campaigns, the dramas, the major controversies, and some wild theories. 00:00 The money behind the Oscars 06:30 Why the Grammys gets worse ratings than the Oscars 22:05 What happened to big movie soundtracks? 31:36 Controversies over the years 40:02 Biggest snubs of all time 44:39 How to improve the show Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 01 Mar 2024 09:00:00 -0000 The Oscars: Hit Songs, All the Drama, and Tons of Money full Dan Runcie This episode is about Hollywood's biggest night, the Academy Awards. I’m joined by friend of the pod Zack O'Malley Greenburg to dive deep into the Oscars, how it compares to the Grammys, its relationship with music, the money spent on campaigns, the dramas, the major controversies, and some wild theories. 00:00 The money behind the Oscars 06:30 Why the Grammys gets worse ratings than the Oscars 22:05 What happened to big movie soundtracks? 31:36 Controversies over the years 40:02 Biggest snubs of all time 44:39 How to improve the show Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. This episode is about Hollywood's biggest night, the Academy Awards. I’m joined by friend of the pod Zack O'Malley Greenburg to dive deep into the Oscars, how it compares to the Grammys, its relationship with music, the money spent on campaigns, the dramas, the major controversies, and some wild theories.


00:00 The money behind the Oscars

06:30 Why the Grammys gets worse ratings than the Oscars

22:05 What happened to big movie soundtracks?

31:36 Controversies over the years

40:02 Biggest snubs of all time

44:39 How to improve the show


Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week!

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 2624 no Virgil Abloh: Off-White, Luxury, and Open-Source Fashion https://www.trapital.com/podcast The late Virgil Abloh’s legacy lives on. From luxury rap to high fashion, his influence changed an entire industry, and several other adjacent ones. In this episode of Trapital, I’m joined by friend of the pod Zack O'Malley Greenburg. We broke down Virgil’s early years that shaped his future, his relationship with Kanye West, brands like Pyrex Vision, Off-White, his 3% rule, his open-sourced approach to business, his highs, lows, and so much more. 00:00 How Virgil entered the fashion world 07:44 Virgil’s influence on hip-hop and ‘luxury rap’ 15:57 Open-source fashion 23:23 The Virgil-Kanye West relationship 27:20 Legacy and controversies Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 23 Feb 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Virgil Abloh: Off-White, Luxury, and Open-Source Fashion full Dan Runcie The late Virgil Abloh’s legacy lives on. From luxury rap to high fashion, his influence changed an entire industry, and several other adjacent ones. In this episode of Trapital, I’m joined by friend of the pod Zack O'Malley Greenburg. We broke down Virgil’s early years that shaped his future, his relationship with Kanye West, brands like Pyrex Vision, Off-White, his 3% rule, his open-sourced approach to business, his highs, lows, and so much more. 00:00 How Virgil entered the fashion world 07:44 Virgil’s influence on hip-hop and ‘luxury rap’ 15:57 Open-source fashion 23:23 The Virgil-Kanye West relationship 27:20 Legacy and controversies Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. The late Virgil Abloh’s legacy lives on. From luxury rap to high fashion, his influence changed an entire industry, and several other adjacent ones.

In this episode of Trapital, I’m joined by friend of the pod Zack O'Malley Greenburg. We broke down Virgil’s early years that shaped his future, his relationship with Kanye West, brands like Pyrex Vision, Off-White, his 3% rule, his open-sourced approach to business, his highs, lows, and so much more.

00:00 How Virgil entered the fashion world

07:44 Virgil’s influence on hip-hop and ‘luxury rap’

15:57 Open-source fashion

23:23 The Virgil-Kanye West relationship

27:20 Legacy and controversies

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 2432 no Yeezy: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly https://www.trapital.com/podcast The rise and fall of the Yeezy brand is a Hollywood screenplay in the making. But this is less like the movie AIR, and more like The Wolf of Wall Street. To break it all down, I'm joined by Zack O'Malley Greenburg, who covered the Yeezy business through his reporting at Forbes. Together, we explore Kanye West's partnerships with Nike, Adidas, and Gap and the highs and lows along the way. Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! 00:00 Kanye West enters the fashion world 08:52 You don’t have the answer, Sway. 24:56 Yeezy becomes a billion dollar brand 30:28 The downfall 37:04 Yeezy’s independent future Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 16 Feb 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Yeezy: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly full Dan Runcie The rise and fall of the Yeezy brand is a Hollywood screenplay in the making. But this is less like the movie AIR, and more like The Wolf of Wall Street. To break it all down, I'm joined by Zack O'Malley Greenburg, who covered the Yeezy business through his reporting at Forbes. Together, we explore Kanye West's partnerships with Nike, Adidas, and Gap and the highs and lows along the way. Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! 00:00 Kanye West enters the fashion world 08:52 You don’t have the answer, Sway. 24:56 Yeezy becomes a billion dollar brand 30:28 The downfall 37:04 Yeezy’s independent future Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. The rise and fall of the Yeezy brand is a Hollywood screenplay in the making. But this is less like the movie AIR, and more like The Wolf of Wall Street.

To break it all down, I'm joined by Zack O'Malley Greenburg, who covered the Yeezy business through his reporting at Forbes. Together, we explore Kanye West's partnerships with Nike, Adidas, and Gap and the highs and lows along the way.

Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week!


00:00 Kanye West enters the fashion world

08:52 You don’t have the answer, Sway.

24:56 Yeezy becomes a billion dollar brand

30:28 The downfall

37:04 Yeezy’s independent future


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 2958 no The Rise of Las Vegas Concert Residencies https://www.trapital.com/podcast From gamblers paradise to entertainment mecca, on this episode of Trapital, we take a trip to Las Vegas and how its coveted residencies have evolved over time, the economics of how they work, and predictions for the future. I’m joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. We explore the Las Vegas’ origin with mob ties, the ground-breaking 2003 Celine Dion residency, and the changing demographic of Vegas attendees. Want to leave us a question for our upcoming mailbag episode? Leave us a voicemail at memo.fm/trapital This episode is brought to you by DICE. Want to learn more about how you and your artists can reach a packed room of your superfans? Learn more at dice.fm/partners Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! 2:30 Las Vegas evolution in music 14:26 Celine Dion's 2003 residency 21:50 The millennial demand 29:59 Weekends with Adele 41:42 The Sphere 48:04 The Future of Residencies Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 09 Feb 2024 09:00:00 -0000 The Rise of Las Vegas Concert Residencies full Dan Runcie From gamblers paradise to entertainment mecca, on this episode of Trapital, we take a trip to Las Vegas and how its coveted residencies have evolved over time, the economics of how they work, and predictions for the future. I’m joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. We explore the Las Vegas’ origin with mob ties, the ground-breaking 2003 Celine Dion residency, and the changing demographic of Vegas attendees. Want to leave us a question for our upcoming mailbag episode? Leave us a voicemail at memo.fm/trapital This episode is brought to you by DICE. Want to learn more about how you and your artists can reach a packed room of your superfans? Learn more at dice.fm/partners Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! 2:30 Las Vegas evolution in music 14:26 Celine Dion's 2003 residency 21:50 The millennial demand 29:59 Weekends with Adele 41:42 The Sphere 48:04 The Future of Residencies Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. From gamblers paradise to entertainment mecca, on this episode of Trapital, we take a trip to Las Vegas and how its coveted residencies have evolved over time, the economics of how they work, and predictions for the future.

I’m joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. We explore the Las Vegas’ origin with mob ties, the ground-breaking 2003 Celine Dion residency, and the changing demographic of Vegas attendees.

Want to leave us a question for our upcoming mailbag episode? Leave us a voicemail at memo.fm/trapital


This episode is brought to you by DICE. Want to learn more about how you and your artists can reach a packed room of your superfans? Learn more at dice.fm/partners

Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week!


2:30 Las Vegas evolution in music

14:26 Celine Dion's 2003 residency

21:50 The millennial demand

29:59 Weekends with Adele

41:42 The Sphere

48:04 The Future of Residencies


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 2765 no SoundCloud and the Future of Superfans https://www.trapital.com/podcast We hear a lot about superfans and how important they are for an artist, but we rarely see any data to quantify how valuable they actually are. In this episode, I'm joined by Will Page, author of Pivot and former chief economist at Spotify, to break down his most recent report, Soundcloud Rockonomics. We discuss the company’s Fan Powered Royalties, the user centric model, how artists like Lil Uzi Vert can measure their fans, and the impact on the industry. Today’s episode is brought to you by Bandzoogle. Build a stunning website today. Start your free 30-day trial and use promo code ‘trapital’ to get 15% off your first year. Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the episode! 00:00 SoundCloud’s fan-powered royalties 12:17 Lil Uzi Vert’s superfans 20:17 Helping artists nurture superfans 25:14 Streaming fraud 29:09 What the industry can learn from this model Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 02 Feb 2024 10:00:00 -0000 SoundCloud and the Future of Superfans full Dan Runcie We hear a lot about superfans and how important they are for an artist, but we rarely see any data to quantify how valuable they actually are. In this episode, I'm joined by Will Page, author of Pivot and former chief economist at Spotify, to break down his most recent report, Soundcloud Rockonomics. We discuss the company’s Fan Powered Royalties, the user centric model, how artists like Lil Uzi Vert can measure their fans, and the impact on the industry. Today’s episode is brought to you by Bandzoogle. Build a stunning website today. Start your free 30-day trial and use promo code ‘trapital’ to get 15% off your first year. Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the episode! 00:00 SoundCloud’s fan-powered royalties 12:17 Lil Uzi Vert’s superfans 20:17 Helping artists nurture superfans 25:14 Streaming fraud 29:09 What the industry can learn from this model Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. We hear a lot about superfans and how important they are for an artist, but we rarely see any data to quantify how valuable they actually are.

In this episode, I'm joined by Will Page, author of Pivot and former chief economist at Spotify, to break down his most recent report, Soundcloud Rockonomics. We discuss the company’s Fan Powered Royalties, the user centric model, how artists like Lil Uzi Vert can measure their fans, and the impact on the industry.

Today’s episode is brought to you by Bandzoogle. Build a stunning website today. Start your free 30-day trial and use promo code ‘trapital’ to get 15% off your first year.

Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the episode!

00:00 SoundCloud’s fan-powered royalties

12:17 Lil Uzi Vert’s superfans

20:17 Helping artists nurture superfans

25:14 Streaming fraud

29:09 What the industry can learn from this model

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 2020 no The Business Behind The Grammys https://www.trapital.com/podcast This episode is about music's biggest night. But we’re not interested in who should win. This is about the business behind the show and everything surrounding it. We break down how the show makes money for CBS and the Recording Academy despite the viewership decline, the massive For Your Consideration business, the campaigning required to win an award, and major controversies over the years. I'm joined by Zack O'Malley Greenburg, friend of the pod, who covered The Grammys several times while at Forbes. This episode is brought to you by DICE. Want to learn more about how you and your artists can reach a packed room of your superfans? Learn more at dice.fm/partners Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! 00:31 Why The Grammys were started 08:04 The Grammys cultural impact over time. 16:50 How The Grammy elevated the perception of musicians 32:03 How The Recording Academy Works 52:15 Changes we would make to The Grammys Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 26 Jan 2024 14:00:00 -0000 The Business Behind The Grammys full Dan Runcie This episode is about music's biggest night. But we’re not interested in who should win. This is about the business behind the show and everything surrounding it. We break down how the show makes money for CBS and the Recording Academy despite the viewership decline, the massive For Your Consideration business, the campaigning required to win an award, and major controversies over the years. I'm joined by Zack O'Malley Greenburg, friend of the pod, who covered The Grammys several times while at Forbes. This episode is brought to you by DICE. Want to learn more about how you and your artists can reach a packed room of your superfans? Learn more at dice.fm/partners Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! 00:31 Why The Grammys were started 08:04 The Grammys cultural impact over time. 16:50 How The Grammy elevated the perception of musicians 32:03 How The Recording Academy Works 52:15 Changes we would make to The Grammys Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. This episode is about music's biggest night. But we’re not interested in who should win. This is about the business behind the show and everything surrounding it.

We break down how the show makes money for CBS and the Recording Academy despite the viewership decline, the massive For Your Consideration business, the campaigning required to win an award, and major controversies over the years.

I'm joined by Zack O'Malley Greenburg, friend of the pod, who covered The Grammys several times while at Forbes.

This episode is brought to you by DICE. Want to learn more about how you and your artists can reach a packed room of your superfans? Learn more at dice.fm/partners

Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week!

00:31 Why The Grammys were started

08:04 The Grammys cultural impact over time.

16:50 How The Grammy elevated the perception of musicians

32:03 How The Recording Academy Works

52:15 Changes we would make to The Grammys


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 3766 no How Insurance Ads Became the Industry Standard https://www.trapital.com/podcast It's been over 10 years since State Farm's first Chris Paul - Cliff Paul ad. It's been over 20 years since GEICO first introduced the gecko. These ads from insurance companies have been the biggest ad campaigns and their impact continues to grow. I'm joined by Dr. Marcus Collins, who helped develop the Chris Paul - Cliff Paul campaign during his time at Translation. We talked about why there are so many insurance ads, how Chris Paul - Cliff Paul happened, and how its legacy lives on. This episode is brought to you by Primary Wave, the home for legends. Learn more about how Primary Wave continues to legacy of the biggest artists from yesterday and today at primarywave.com Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:00:00 -0000 How Insurance Ads Became the Industry Standard full Dan Runcie It's been over 10 years since State Farm's first Chris Paul - Cliff Paul ad. It's been over 20 years since GEICO first introduced the gecko. These ads from insurance companies have been the biggest ad campaigns and their impact continues to grow. I'm joined by Dr. Marcus Collins, who helped develop the Chris Paul - Cliff Paul campaign during his time at Translation. We talked about why there are so many insurance ads, how Chris Paul - Cliff Paul happened, and how its legacy lives on. This episode is brought to you by Primary Wave, the home for legends. Learn more about how Primary Wave continues to legacy of the biggest artists from yesterday and today at primarywave.com Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. It's been over 10 years since State Farm's first Chris Paul - Cliff Paul ad. It's been over 20 years since GEICO first introduced the gecko. These ads from insurance companies have been the biggest ad campaigns and their impact continues to grow.

I'm joined by Dr. Marcus Collins, who helped develop the Chris Paul - Cliff Paul campaign during his time at Translation. We talked about why there are so many insurance ads, how Chris Paul - Cliff Paul happened, and how its legacy lives on.


This episode is brought to you by Primary Wave, the home for legends. Learn more about how Primary Wave continues to legacy of the biggest artists from yesterday and today at primarywave.com

Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week!


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 3714 no Why Radio Still Matters https://www.trapital.com/podcast Radio is the music format with nine lives. Despite all of the new evolutions in AI, streaming, and short-form video, radio continues to live on; and will do so for several more years. In this episode, I’m joined by a friend of the pod, Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. We dive into radio’s impact in music over the years, current cutbacks and layoffs, and what the future of radio looks like in today’s era. Today’s episode is brought to you by Bandzoogle. Build a stunning website today. Start your free 30-day trial and use promo code ‘trapital’ to get 15% off your first year. Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! 09:100 The underestimation of radio’s impact. 15:20 Debates for royalty payments 22:20 How streaming flipped radio's role in promotion 37:15 The Breakfast Club's success 48:14 What streaming can learn from radio Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 12 Jan 2024 09:00:00 -0000 Why Radio Still Matters full Dan Runcie Radio is the music format with nine lives. Despite all of the new evolutions in AI, streaming, and short-form video, radio continues to live on; and will do so for several more years. In this episode, I’m joined by a friend of the pod, Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. We dive into radio’s impact in music over the years, current cutbacks and layoffs, and what the future of radio looks like in today’s era. Today’s episode is brought to you by Bandzoogle. Build a stunning website today. Start your free 30-day trial and use promo code ‘trapital’ to get 15% off your first year. Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week! 09:100 The underestimation of radio’s impact. 15:20 Debates for royalty payments 22:20 How streaming flipped radio's role in promotion 37:15 The Breakfast Club's success 48:14 What streaming can learn from radio Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Radio is the music format with nine lives. Despite all of the new evolutions in AI, streaming, and short-form video, radio continues to live on; and will do so for several more years.

In this episode, I’m joined by a friend of the pod, Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. We dive into radio’s impact in music over the years, current cutbacks and layoffs, and what the future of radio looks like in today’s era.

Today’s episode is brought to you by Bandzoogle. Build a stunning website today. Start your free 30-day trial and use promo code ‘trapital’ to get 15% off your first year.

Make sure you listen in for our new Chartmetric stat of the week!

09:100 The underestimation of radio’s impact.

15:20 Debates for royalty payments

22:20 How streaming flipped radio's role in promotion

37:15 The Breakfast Club's success

48:14 What streaming can learn from radio

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 3737 no Can New Superstars Ever Surpass Current Superstars? https://www.trapital.com/podcast Music has several big new stars with tons of talent, but will they ever have a year as big as Taylor Swift and Beyoncé in 2023. Both women have been commercially successful for decades and continue to dominate the charts even to this day. They came up in a different time, which works to their advantage. But what does this mean for the streaming and TikTok era artists who want to break through all the noise? Can they ever reach the same level of stardom? In this episode, I’m joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research to discuss what it takes, the impact of streaming and TikTok, and whether artists like Billie Eilish, Dua Lipa, Bad Bunny and others will ever reach the level of superstardom of artists like Beyoncé, Drake, Adele or T Swift. 04:16 Breaking through in a saturated industry 08:32 Monoculture 09:36 The impact of streaming and TikTok 14:30 Billie Eilish, Olivia Rodrigo, Burna Boy, Post Malone 33:44 Dua Lipa, Doja Cat, SZA 58:29 Morgan Wallen, Bad Bunny 01:11:23 The monetization of streaming by genre This episode is brought to you by Steed, the tax strategy firm built for our industry. Trapital listeners can skip the 1,600 person waitlist and schedule your free tax consultation today. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 22 Dec 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Can New Superstars Ever Surpass Current Superstars? full Dan Runcie Music has several big new stars with tons of talent, but will they ever have a year as big as Taylor Swift and Beyoncé in 2023. Both women have been commercially successful for decades and continue to dominate the charts even to this day. They came up in a different time, which works to their advantage. But what does this mean for the streaming and TikTok era artists who want to break through all the noise? Can they ever reach the same level of stardom? In this episode, I’m joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research to discuss what it takes, the impact of streaming and TikTok, and whether artists like Billie Eilish, Dua Lipa, Bad Bunny and others will ever reach the level of superstardom of artists like Beyoncé, Drake, Adele or T Swift. 04:16 Breaking through in a saturated industry 08:32 Monoculture 09:36 The impact of streaming and TikTok 14:30 Billie Eilish, Olivia Rodrigo, Burna Boy, Post Malone 33:44 Dua Lipa, Doja Cat, SZA 58:29 Morgan Wallen, Bad Bunny 01:11:23 The monetization of streaming by genre This episode is brought to you by Steed, the tax strategy firm built for our industry. Trapital listeners can skip the 1,600 person waitlist and schedule your free tax consultation today. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Music has several big new stars with tons of talent, but will they ever have a year as big as Taylor Swift and Beyoncé in 2023. Both women have been commercially successful for decades and continue to dominate the charts even to this day. They came up in a different time, which works to their advantage.

But what does this mean for the streaming and TikTok era artists who want to break through all the noise? Can they ever reach the same level of stardom?

In this episode, I’m joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research to discuss what it takes, the impact of streaming and TikTok, and whether artists like Billie Eilish, Dua Lipa, Bad Bunny and others will ever reach the level of superstardom of artists like Beyoncé, Drake, Adele or T Swift.


04:16 Breaking through in a saturated industry

08:32 Monoculture

09:36 The impact of streaming and TikTok

14:30 Billie Eilish, Olivia Rodrigo, Burna Boy, Post Malone

33:44 Dua Lipa, Doja Cat, SZA

58:29 Morgan Wallen, Bad Bunny

01:11:23 The monetization of streaming by genre

This episode is brought to you by Steed, the tax strategy firm built for our industry. Trapital listeners can skip the 1,600 person waitlist and schedule your free tax consultation today.


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 5056 no Why Celebrity Fast Food Meals Took Off https://www.trapital.com/podcast It’s been 3.5 years since McDonald’s Travis Scott meal, and we still see new celebrity fast food meals all the time. In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Marcus Collins, author of “For the Culture,” as we explore how fast food chains like McDonald's bounced back to its partnerships with influential artists and musicians. Marcus and I discuss McDonald’s history in celebrity fast food partnerships, how other fast food chains have had their own meals, what works what doesn’t, and where things are headed. 03:20 Why McDonald’s partnered with artists. 07:19 McDonald's and the McJordan. 16:39 The impact of social media on celebrity fast food meals. 27:53 The Travis Scott meal. 44:47 How fast food chains partnered with artists. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 15 Dec 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Why Celebrity Fast Food Meals Took Off full Dan Runcie It’s been 3.5 years since McDonald’s Travis Scott meal, and we still see new celebrity fast food meals all the time. In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Marcus Collins, author of “For the Culture,” as we explore how fast food chains like McDonald's bounced back to its partnerships with influential artists and musicians. Marcus and I discuss McDonald’s history in celebrity fast food partnerships, how other fast food chains have had their own meals, what works what doesn’t, and where things are headed. 03:20 Why McDonald’s partnered with artists. 07:19 McDonald's and the McJordan. 16:39 The impact of social media on celebrity fast food meals. 27:53 The Travis Scott meal. 44:47 How fast food chains partnered with artists. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. It’s been 3.5 years since McDonald’s Travis Scott meal, and we still see new celebrity fast food meals all the time.

In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Marcus Collins, author of “For the Culture,” as we explore how fast food chains like McDonald's bounced back to its partnerships with influential artists and musicians.

Marcus and I discuss McDonald’s history in celebrity fast food partnerships, how other fast food chains have had their own meals, what works what doesn’t, and where things are headed.


03:20 Why McDonald’s partnered with artists.

07:19 McDonald's and the McJordan.

16:39 The impact of social media on celebrity fast food meals.

27:53 The Travis Scott meal.

44:47 How fast food chains partnered with artists.


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 3790 no Adidas: Sneakers, Hip-Hop and Culture https://www.trapital.com/podcast Adidas has one of the most insane backstories of any major apparel company. From its ties to the Nazi party, and its turbulent relationship with Kanye West, to its partnerships with Hip-Hop, and its influence in soccer, we cover it all. We also talk about the brands rise, its strongest years, Beyoncé, Ivy Park, and why celestial star power isn't always enough. In this episode I’m joined by friend of the pod Zack O’Malley Greenburg as we break it all down. We examine Adidas’ story history, strategic moves, missteps and more. 03:40 Adidas’ history with the Nazi party. 20:04 Adidas' turbulent 1990s and missed opportunities. 34:12 Adidas’ Yeezy deal with Kanye West. 41:07 The Yeezy anti-semitism controversy. 47:19 Brands need to reconsider celebrity partnerships strategy. 58:20 Why Beyoncé and Ivy Park didn’t work. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. This episode was brought to you by Audiense. Take your marketing strategy to the next level. Trapital listeners can start a free trial of Audiense. Learn more here. This episode was brought to you by Bevel . Get 20% off everything sitewide until 12/22! Visit getbevel.com. Fri, 08 Dec 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Adidas: Sneakers, Hip-Hop and Culture full Dan Runcie Adidas has one of the most insane backstories of any major apparel company. From its ties to the Nazi party, and its turbulent relationship with Kanye West, to its partnerships with Hip-Hop, and its influence in soccer, we cover it all. We also talk about the brands rise, its strongest years, Beyoncé, Ivy Park, and why celestial star power isn't always enough. In this episode I’m joined by friend of the pod Zack O’Malley Greenburg as we break it all down. We examine Adidas’ story history, strategic moves, missteps and more. 03:40 Adidas’ history with the Nazi party. 20:04 Adidas' turbulent 1990s and missed opportunities. 34:12 Adidas’ Yeezy deal with Kanye West. 41:07 The Yeezy anti-semitism controversy. 47:19 Brands need to reconsider celebrity partnerships strategy. 58:20 Why Beyoncé and Ivy Park didn’t work. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. This episode was brought to you by Audiense. Take your marketing strategy to the next level. Trapital listeners can start a free trial of Audiense. Learn more here. This episode was brought to you by Bevel . Get 20% off everything sitewide until 12/22! Visit getbevel.com. Adidas has one of the most insane backstories of any major apparel company. From its ties to the Nazi party, and its turbulent relationship with Kanye West, to its partnerships with Hip-Hop, and its influence in soccer, we cover it all.

We also talk about the brands rise, its strongest years, Beyoncé, Ivy Park, and why celestial star power isn't always enough.

In this episode I’m joined by friend of the pod Zack O’Malley Greenburg as we break it all down. We examine Adidas’ story history, strategic moves, missteps and more.


03:40 Adidas’ history with the Nazi party.

20:04 Adidas' turbulent 1990s and missed opportunities.

34:12 Adidas’ Yeezy deal with Kanye West.

41:07 The Yeezy anti-semitism controversy.

47:19 Brands need to reconsider celebrity partnerships strategy.

58:20 Why Beyoncé and Ivy Park didn’t work.


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

This episode was brought to you by Audiense. Take your marketing strategy to the next level. Trapital listeners can start a free trial of Audiense. Learn more here.

This episode was brought to you by Bevel . Get 20% off everything sitewide until 12/22! Visit getbevel.com.

]]> 3868 no YouTube’s Impact on Music https://www.trapital.com/podcast It’s hard to imagine what music would be like today without YouTube. The platform has done more to lower the entry barriers to music creation and distribution than any other platform. From the early days when acts like Soulja Boy harnessed the raw power of YouTube to drive their careers, to modern narratives like NBA YoungBoy mastering Creator culture, in this episode we delve into how YouTube's become an essential player in the music industry. In this episode, I’m joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research to discuss the origins of YouTube entering the space, the rocky relationships with music rights holders, the importance of UGC (User Generated Content), and so much more. [00:01:23] YouTube Enters The Music Industry [00:08:37] Google Acquires YouTube, DMCA [00:21:12] The Monetization-Exposure Trade Off [00:28:36] YouTube’s “Value Gap” [00:44:48] Improving Relationships With The Music Industry [00:49:49] Content ID [00:56:44] YouTube and AI This episode is brought to you by Downtown Music, the world leader in music services with over 2 million clients. Visit Downtown today to learn more. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 01 Dec 2023 09:00:00 -0000 YouTube’s Impact on Music full Dan Runcie It’s hard to imagine what music would be like today without YouTube. The platform has done more to lower the entry barriers to music creation and distribution than any other platform. From the early days when acts like Soulja Boy harnessed the raw power of YouTube to drive their careers, to modern narratives like NBA YoungBoy mastering Creator culture, in this episode we delve into how YouTube's become an essential player in the music industry. In this episode, I’m joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research to discuss the origins of YouTube entering the space, the rocky relationships with music rights holders, the importance of UGC (User Generated Content), and so much more. [00:01:23] YouTube Enters The Music Industry [00:08:37] Google Acquires YouTube, DMCA [00:21:12] The Monetization-Exposure Trade Off [00:28:36] YouTube’s “Value Gap” [00:44:48] Improving Relationships With The Music Industry [00:49:49] Content ID [00:56:44] YouTube and AI This episode is brought to you by Downtown Music, the world leader in music services with over 2 million clients. Visit Downtown today to learn more. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. It’s hard to imagine what music would be like today without YouTube. The platform has done more to lower the entry barriers to music creation and distribution than any other platform.

From the early days when acts like Soulja Boy harnessed the raw power of YouTube to drive their careers, to modern narratives like NBA YoungBoy mastering Creator culture, in this episode we delve into how YouTube's become an essential player in the music industry.

In this episode, I’m joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research to discuss the origins of YouTube entering the space, the rocky relationships with music rights holders, the importance of UGC (User Generated Content), and so much more.

[00:01:23] YouTube Enters The Music Industry

[00:08:37] Google Acquires YouTube, DMCA

[00:21:12] The Monetization-Exposure Trade Off

[00:28:36] YouTube’s “Value Gap”

[00:44:48] Improving Relationships With The Music Industry

[00:49:49] Content ID

[00:56:44] YouTube and AI

This episode is brought to you by Downtown Music, the world leader in music services with over 2 million clients. Visit Downtown today to learn more.

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 4259 no Why Music is a $40+ Billion Industry https://www.trapital.com/podcast How much money does the music industry really make on an annual basis? The answer is not as straightforward as you think. Most of the outlets that publish figures only report on one side of the business. But since 2014, former Spotify chief economist and author Will Page has made it his job to answer this question in his annual report on global music copyright. This year the global value is at $41.5 billion. In this episode, I’m joined by Will and friend of the show, Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. We dive deep into the key findings of the report, the growth of publishing, vinyl sales, why “back catalog” is a dated term, AI’s disruption, and a whole lot more. [00:04:06] The need for data transparency [00:30:51] The rise of vinyl [00:46:43] How music relates to gaming [00:54:42] Streaming price increases This episode is brought to you by DICE. Want to learn more about how you and your artists can reach a packed room of your superfans? Learn more at dice.fm/partners Want to write a guest post while I’m on paternity leave in 2024? Here’s the form to fill out Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 17 Nov 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Why Music is a $40+ Billion Industry full Dan Runcie How much money does the music industry really make on an annual basis? The answer is not as straightforward as you think. Most of the outlets that publish figures only report on one side of the business. But since 2014, former Spotify chief economist and author Will Page has made it his job to answer this question in his annual report on global music copyright. This year the global value is at $41.5 billion. In this episode, I’m joined by Will and friend of the show, Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. We dive deep into the key findings of the report, the growth of publishing, vinyl sales, why “back catalog” is a dated term, AI’s disruption, and a whole lot more. [00:04:06] The need for data transparency [00:30:51] The rise of vinyl [00:46:43] How music relates to gaming [00:54:42] Streaming price increases This episode is brought to you by DICE. Want to learn more about how you and your artists can reach a packed room of your superfans? Learn more at dice.fm/partners Want to write a guest post while I’m on paternity leave in 2024? Here’s the form to fill out Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. How much money does the music industry really make on an annual basis? The answer is not as straightforward as you think. Most of the outlets that publish figures only report on one side of the business. But since 2014, former Spotify chief economist and author Will Page has made it his job to answer this question in his annual report on global music copyright. This year the global value is at $41.5 billion.

In this episode, I’m joined by Will and friend of the show, Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. We dive deep into the key findings of the report, the growth of publishing, vinyl sales, why “back catalog” is a dated term, AI’s disruption, and a whole lot more.

[00:04:06] The need for data transparency

[00:30:51] The rise of vinyl

[00:46:43] How music relates to gaming

[00:54:42] Streaming price increases

This episode is brought to you by DICE. Want to learn more about how you and your artists can reach a packed room of your superfans? Learn more at dice.fm/partners

Want to write a guest post while I’m on paternity leave in 2024? Here’s the form to fill out

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 4298 no Reebok: Sneakers, Hip-Hop, and Missed Opportunities https://www.trapital.com/podcast It wasn’t that long ago that Reebok was head-to-head with the biggest athletic apparel companies in the world. In 1989, Reebok sales had exceeded Nike. In 2001, Reebok’s two biggest stars, MVPs Shaquille O’Neal and Allen Iverson, faced off in the NBA Finals. In 2003, two of hip-hop’s biggest stars, 50 Cent and Jay Z, had their own Reebok sneakers. But less then a decade later, the brand was a… struggling CrossFit brand under the Adidas umbrella. What happened? In this week’s episode of Trapital, Zack O’Malley Greenburg and I take a trip down memory lane. We examine Reebok’s rise, challenges faced, big partnerships, failed acquisitions, and missed opportunities. [00:03:35] Reebok vs. Nike [00;15;34] Allen Iverson and hip-hop [00;19;59] Jay Z’s S. Dots, 50 Cent’s G-Unit sneakers [00;34;39] Adidas acquires Reebok [00;51;03] ABG acquires Reebok [01;02;11] AI and Shaq now Reebok execs This episode is brought to you by Bevel. Beat the holiday rush and get 20% off the device of your choice. Offer ends Sun Nov 19. Get your device today. Want to write a guest post while I’m on paternity leave in 2024? Here’s the form to fill out Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 10 Nov 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Reebok: Sneakers, Hip-Hop, and Missed Opportunities full Dan Runcie It wasn’t that long ago that Reebok was head-to-head with the biggest athletic apparel companies in the world. In 1989, Reebok sales had exceeded Nike. In 2001, Reebok’s two biggest stars, MVPs Shaquille O’Neal and Allen Iverson, faced off in the NBA Finals. In 2003, two of hip-hop’s biggest stars, 50 Cent and Jay Z, had their own Reebok sneakers. But less then a decade later, the brand was a… struggling CrossFit brand under the Adidas umbrella. What happened? In this week’s episode of Trapital, Zack O’Malley Greenburg and I take a trip down memory lane. We examine Reebok’s rise, challenges faced, big partnerships, failed acquisitions, and missed opportunities. [00:03:35] Reebok vs. Nike [00;15;34] Allen Iverson and hip-hop [00;19;59] Jay Z’s S. Dots, 50 Cent’s G-Unit sneakers [00;34;39] Adidas acquires Reebok [00;51;03] ABG acquires Reebok [01;02;11] AI and Shaq now Reebok execs This episode is brought to you by Bevel. Beat the holiday rush and get 20% off the device of your choice. Offer ends Sun Nov 19. Get your device today. Want to write a guest post while I’m on paternity leave in 2024? Here’s the form to fill out Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. It wasn’t that long ago that Reebok was head-to-head with the biggest athletic apparel companies in the world. In 1989, Reebok sales had exceeded Nike. In 2001, Reebok’s two biggest stars, MVPs Shaquille O’Neal and Allen Iverson, faced off in the NBA Finals. In 2003, two of hip-hop’s biggest stars, 50 Cent and Jay Z, had their own Reebok sneakers.

But less then a decade later, the brand was a… struggling CrossFit brand under the Adidas umbrella. What happened?

In this week’s episode of Trapital, Zack O’Malley Greenburg and I take a trip down memory lane. We examine Reebok’s rise, challenges faced, big partnerships, failed acquisitions, and missed opportunities.

[00:03:35] Reebok vs. Nike

[00;15;34] Allen Iverson and hip-hop

[00;19;59] Jay Z’s S. Dots, 50 Cent’s G-Unit sneakers

[00;34;39] Adidas acquires Reebok

[00;51;03] ABG acquires Reebok

[01;02;11] AI and Shaq now Reebok execs

This episode is brought to you by Bevel. Beat the holiday rush and get 20% off the device of your choice. Offer ends Sun Nov 19. Get your device today.

Want to write a guest post while I’m on paternity leave in 2024? Here’s the form to fill out

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 3836 no The Trapital Report 2023 https://www.trapital.com/podcast The Trapital Report 2023 is here! In this episode we break down a few big takeaways from the report on streaming, live music, the state of hip-hop, and the most valuable songs in the world. I’m joined by David Boyle from Audience Strategies, who first reached out to me about working on this report and we’ve been working together ever since. We have two report versions. You can download the free preview of the report here. We also have a premium version of the report available with insights on engaging superfans, emerging technology, country music’s moment, the impact of TikTok and short-form video, generational preferences, and more. You can buy the premium report here. [00:04:36] Hip hop outshines electronic music. [00:05:51] Hip Hop's growth was tapering off. [00:16:21] Headlines without context can impact decisions. [00:23:32] Fans want identity, self-expression, and memories. [00:33:11] Leaning in to generative AI. [00:35:24] How best to split the pie [00:42:55] Different worlds for artists on different tours. [00:46:00] Historical bias and price influence hip hop tours. [00:51:19] YouTube active users prefer pop audience. Thanks again to the report’s presenting sponsor, DICE, and our presenting sponsors, Downtown Music and Audiense for making this report possible. Thanks to Luminate and Pollstar for sharing your data with us, and thanks again to Simon Jacobs and David Boyle from Audience Strategies. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Mon, 30 Oct 2023 23:00:00 -0000 The Trapital Report 2023 full Dan Runcie The Trapital Report 2023 is here! In this episode we break down a few big takeaways from the report on streaming, live music, the state of hip-hop, and the most valuable songs in the world. I’m joined by David Boyle from Audience Strategies, who first reached out to me about working on this report and we’ve been working together ever since. We have two report versions. You can download the free preview of the report here. We also have a premium version of the report available with insights on engaging superfans, emerging technology, country music’s moment, the impact of TikTok and short-form video, generational preferences, and more. You can buy the premium report here. [00:04:36] Hip hop outshines electronic music. [00:05:51] Hip Hop's growth was tapering off. [00:16:21] Headlines without context can impact decisions. [00:23:32] Fans want identity, self-expression, and memories. [00:33:11] Leaning in to generative AI. [00:35:24] How best to split the pie [00:42:55] Different worlds for artists on different tours. [00:46:00] Historical bias and price influence hip hop tours. [00:51:19] YouTube active users prefer pop audience. Thanks again to the report’s presenting sponsor, DICE, and our presenting sponsors, Downtown Music and Audiense for making this report possible. Thanks to Luminate and Pollstar for sharing your data with us, and thanks again to Simon Jacobs and David Boyle from Audience Strategies. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. The Trapital Report 2023 is here! In this episode we break down a few big takeaways from the report on streaming, live music, the state of hip-hop, and the most valuable songs in the world. I’m joined by David Boyle from Audience Strategies, who first reached out to me about working on this report and we’ve been working together ever since.

We have two report versions. You can download the free preview of the report here.

We also have a premium version of the report available with insights on engaging superfans, emerging technology, country music’s moment, the impact of TikTok and short-form video, generational preferences, and more.

You can buy the premium report here.

[00:04:36] Hip hop outshines electronic music.

[00:05:51] Hip Hop's growth was tapering off.

[00:16:21] Headlines without context can impact decisions.

[00:23:32] Fans want identity, self-expression, and memories.

[00:33:11] Leaning in to generative AI.

[00:35:24] How best to split the pie

[00:42:55] Different worlds for artists on different tours.

[00:46:00] Historical bias and price influence hip hop tours.

[00:51:19] YouTube active users prefer pop audience.

Thanks again to the report’s presenting sponsor, DICE, and our presenting sponsors, Downtown Music and Audiense for making this report possible. Thanks to Luminate and Pollstar for sharing your data with us, and thanks again to Simon Jacobs and David Boyle from Audience Strategies.

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 3767 no Apple’s Impact on Music: From iPods to AirPods https://www.trapital.com/podcast Apple has been the most influential company in music in the 21st century, and music was the major driver behind Apple’s comeback. Join us for a deep dive on where Apple was before its music journey, the impact of iTunes, Steve Jobs, iPod, U2, iPhone, Apple Music, Drake, Taylor Swift, Frank Ocean, and a whole lot more. I’m joined by friend of the pod, Zack O’Malley Greenburg. We discuss how music helped Apple exceed the value of the entire music industry. We also discuss the company’s strategy with software, hardware, and how it all worked together. Hope you enjoy it. [00:03:55] Steve Jobs returns to Apple [00:10:13] iTunes, iPod, iTunes Music Store [00:34:48] How U2 got their own iPod [00:44:20] Why Jobs was against subscription-based music streaming [00:51:27] Apple buys Beats Electronics [00:56:48] How U2’s album got on every iPhone [01:07:54] Apple Music launch [01:14:04] What would Jobs say about Apple’s current music strategy? [01:21:54] Apple Music’s old exclusives strategy Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 20 Oct 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Apple’s Impact on Music: From iPods to AirPods full Dan Runcie Apple has been the most influential company in music in the 21st century, and music was the major driver behind Apple’s comeback. Join us for a deep dive on where Apple was before its music journey, the impact of iTunes, Steve Jobs, iPod, U2, iPhone, Apple Music, Drake, Taylor Swift, Frank Ocean, and a whole lot more. I’m joined by friend of the pod, Zack O’Malley Greenburg. We discuss how music helped Apple exceed the value of the entire music industry. We also discuss the company’s strategy with software, hardware, and how it all worked together. Hope you enjoy it. [00:03:55] Steve Jobs returns to Apple [00:10:13] iTunes, iPod, iTunes Music Store [00:34:48] How U2 got their own iPod [00:44:20] Why Jobs was against subscription-based music streaming [00:51:27] Apple buys Beats Electronics [00:56:48] How U2’s album got on every iPhone [01:07:54] Apple Music launch [01:14:04] What would Jobs say about Apple’s current music strategy? [01:21:54] Apple Music’s old exclusives strategy Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Apple has been the most influential company in music in the 21st century, and music was the major driver behind Apple’s comeback. Join us for a deep dive on where Apple was before its music journey, the impact of iTunes, Steve Jobs, iPod, U2, iPhone, Apple Music, Drake, Taylor Swift, Frank Ocean, and a whole lot more.

I’m joined by friend of the pod, Zack O’Malley Greenburg. We discuss how music helped Apple exceed the value of the entire music industry. We also discuss the company’s strategy with software, hardware, and how it all worked together. Hope you enjoy it.

[00:03:55] Steve Jobs returns to Apple

[00:10:13] iTunes, iPod, iTunes Music Store

[00:34:48] How U2 got their own iPod

[00:44:20] Why Jobs was against subscription-based music streaming

[00:51:27] Apple buys Beats Electronics

[00:56:48] How U2’s album got on every iPhone

[01:07:54] Apple Music launch

[01:14:04] What would Jobs say about Apple’s current music strategy?

[01:21:54] Apple Music’s old exclusives strategy

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 5534 no Trapital Report coming soon! https://www.trapital.com/podcast No new episode this week. We’re working hard on this year’s Trapital Report, which is out at the end of October! Make sure you’re signed up for our email newsletter to get the report once it’s live. Next week we’re back with another deep dive episode. Listen to this brief episode for a few hints! Talk to you next week. Fri, 13 Oct 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Trapital Report coming soon! full Dan Runcie No new episode this week. We’re working hard on this year’s Trapital Report, which is out at the end of October! Make sure you’re signed up for our email newsletter to get the report once it’s live. Next week we’re back with another deep dive episode. Listen to this brief episode for a few hints! Talk to you next week. No new episode this week. We’re working hard on this year’s Trapital Report, which is out at the end of October! Make sure you’re signed up for our email newsletter to get the report once it’s live.

Next week we’re back with another deep dive episode. Listen to this brief episode for a few hints! Talk to you next week.

]]> 111 no Pandora: a 3-1 Lead in Music Streaming https://www.trapital.com/podcast This episode is all about Pandora Music. In the post-iPhone era, Pandora was the early favorite in music streaming. We break down its decade-long journey to get there, its rise in popularity, IPO, SiriusXM, and how and why it got beat by other competitors. I’m joined by friend of the show, Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Here’s what we discussed: [00:05:50] The Music Genome Project [00:09:37] Rejected by 300 VCs [00:14:44] Pandora’s legal battles [00:18:22] Pandora vs Spotify [00:40:50] The SiriusXM era [00:54:15] Changing culture Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Thu, 05 Oct 2023 18:00:00 -0000 Pandora: a 3-1 Lead in Music Streaming full Dan Runcie This episode is all about Pandora Music. In the post-iPhone era, Pandora was the early favorite in music streaming. We break down its decade-long journey to get there, its rise in popularity, IPO, SiriusXM, and how and why it got beat by other competitors. I’m joined by friend of the show, Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Here’s what we discussed: [00:05:50] The Music Genome Project [00:09:37] Rejected by 300 VCs [00:14:44] Pandora’s legal battles [00:18:22] Pandora vs Spotify [00:40:50] The SiriusXM era [00:54:15] Changing culture Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. This episode is all about Pandora Music. In the post-iPhone era, Pandora was the early favorite in music streaming. We break down its decade-long journey to get there, its rise in popularity, IPO, SiriusXM, and how and why it got beat by other competitors.

I’m joined by friend of the show, Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Here’s what we discussed:

[00:05:50] The Music Genome Project

[00:09:37] Rejected by 300 VCs

[00:14:44] Pandora’s legal battles

[00:18:22] Pandora vs Spotify

[00:40:50] The SiriusXM era

[00:54:15] Changing culture

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 3928 no Stanford GSB: The Future of Music - 2023 Black Leadership Conference https://www.trapital.com/podcast In May 2023, I gave a talk at the Stanford University’s Graduate School of Business - Black Leadership Conference. I explored the future of music, industry trends, and its impact on Black artists. Hip-hop culture sets the trends that society follows. I explore all that and more. [00:06:18] Beyond the vanity metrics [00:08:06] Whitney Houston estate [00:13:16] The OutKast Edge [00:19:51] Q&A: Leveling up at each stage of growth Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 29 Sep 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Stanford GSB: The Future of Music - 2023 Black Leadership Conference full Dan Runcie In May 2023, I gave a talk at the Stanford University’s Graduate School of Business - Black Leadership Conference. I explored the future of music, industry trends, and its impact on Black artists. Hip-hop culture sets the trends that society follows. I explore all that and more. [00:06:18] Beyond the vanity metrics [00:08:06] Whitney Houston estate [00:13:16] The OutKast Edge [00:19:51] Q&A: Leveling up at each stage of growth Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. In May 2023, I gave a talk at the Stanford University’s Graduate School of Business - Black Leadership Conference. I explored the future of music, industry trends, and its impact on Black artists. Hip-hop culture sets the trends that society follows. I explore all that and more.

[00:06:18] Beyond the vanity metrics

[00:08:06] Whitney Houston estate

[00:13:16] The OutKast Edge

[00:19:51] Q&A: Leveling up at each stage of growth

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 1319 no Def Jam Recordings: A 40-Year Legacy https://www.trapital.com/podcast You can't tell the story about hip-hop without telling the story of Def Jam. We break down the business behind of one of the most iconic record labels of all time. Join me, Dan Runcie, and friend of the pod, Zack Greenburg, as we discuss the triumphs and challenges that shape Def Jam and its legacy. [00:04:44] Def Jam influence on modern hip hop [00:08:59] How Russell Simmons and Rick Rubin met [00:18:18] Simmons and Rubin part ways [00:26:23] Lyor Cohen takes over, Polygram deal [00:34:24] Def Comedy Jam and Def Poetry Jam [00:42:59] Late 90s run: DMX, Jay Z, and the UMG sale [00:52:11] Def Jam Vendetta [00:58:27] Jay Z becomes CEO [01:12:09] LA Reid, Def Jam in the 2010s [01:21:54] Most effective Def Jam CEO? [01:28:31] Dark horse move? [01:38:05] Missed opportunities Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 22 Sep 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Def Jam Recordings: A 40-Year Legacy full Dan Runcie You can't tell the story about hip-hop without telling the story of Def Jam. We break down the business behind of one of the most iconic record labels of all time. Join me, Dan Runcie, and friend of the pod, Zack Greenburg, as we discuss the triumphs and challenges that shape Def Jam and its legacy. [00:04:44] Def Jam influence on modern hip hop [00:08:59] How Russell Simmons and Rick Rubin met [00:18:18] Simmons and Rubin part ways [00:26:23] Lyor Cohen takes over, Polygram deal [00:34:24] Def Comedy Jam and Def Poetry Jam [00:42:59] Late 90s run: DMX, Jay Z, and the UMG sale [00:52:11] Def Jam Vendetta [00:58:27] Jay Z becomes CEO [01:12:09] LA Reid, Def Jam in the 2010s [01:21:54] Most effective Def Jam CEO? [01:28:31] Dark horse move? [01:38:05] Missed opportunities Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. You can't tell the story about hip-hop without telling the story of Def Jam. We break down the business behind of one of the most iconic record labels of all time. Join me, Dan Runcie, and friend of the pod, Zack Greenburg, as we discuss the triumphs and challenges that shape Def Jam and its legacy.


[00:04:44] Def Jam influence on modern hip hop

[00:08:59] How Russell Simmons and Rick Rubin met

[00:18:18] Simmons and Rubin part ways

[00:26:23] Lyor Cohen takes over, Polygram deal

[00:34:24] Def Comedy Jam and Def Poetry Jam

[00:42:59] Late 90s run: DMX, Jay Z, and the UMG sale

[00:52:11] Def Jam Vendetta

[00:58:27] Jay Z becomes CEO

[01:12:09] LA Reid, Def Jam in the 2010s

[01:21:54] Most effective Def Jam CEO?

[01:28:31] Dark horse move?

[01:38:05] Missed opportunities


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 6137 no Investing in Music, Songs of the Summer, Pop Star Decline, and Creator Trends https://www.trapital.com/podcast This is a solo episode! I break down four important topics: Saudi Arabia investing in music The “Song of the Summer” is no more Pop star decline: winners, losers, and trends Spotify’s podcast strategy and the creator economy [00:04:22] Saudi investors exploring entertainment and tech, except music. [00:07:50] Music festivals present opportunity for strategic investment. [00:08:47] Investment activity in acquiring back catalog. [00:13:12] Songs of summer: fragmented, subjective, lost meaning. [00:16:52] Song anticipates spring/summer, dominates airwaves, summer-themed video. [00:20:51] Pop star decline: articles highlight big changes. [00:24:22] Limited inventory shifted to infinite digital options. [00:28:20] Music industry shifts in less than a decade. [00:32:12] Valuable data for advertisers and podcasters. [00:36:05] ConvertKit founder rejects Spotify acquisition attempt; insights on equity sharing for bootstrap businesses. Podcasters' success rate low but valuable. Creator economy companies seek capital for growth. [00:38:27] Unicorn-like success stories, underestimated expectations. [00:41:27] Personalized services to artists, potentially disrupting the traditional role of major record labels. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 15 Sep 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Investing in Music, Songs of the Summer, Pop Star Decline, and Creator Trends full Dan Runcie This is a solo episode! I break down four important topics: Saudi Arabia investing in music The “Song of the Summer” is no more Pop star decline: winners, losers, and trends Spotify’s podcast strategy and the creator economy [00:04:22] Saudi investors exploring entertainment and tech, except music. [00:07:50] Music festivals present opportunity for strategic investment. [00:08:47] Investment activity in acquiring back catalog. [00:13:12] Songs of summer: fragmented, subjective, lost meaning. [00:16:52] Song anticipates spring/summer, dominates airwaves, summer-themed video. [00:20:51] Pop star decline: articles highlight big changes. [00:24:22] Limited inventory shifted to infinite digital options. [00:28:20] Music industry shifts in less than a decade. [00:32:12] Valuable data for advertisers and podcasters. [00:36:05] ConvertKit founder rejects Spotify acquisition attempt; insights on equity sharing for bootstrap businesses. Podcasters' success rate low but valuable. Creator economy companies seek capital for growth. [00:38:27] Unicorn-like success stories, underestimated expectations. [00:41:27] Personalized services to artists, potentially disrupting the traditional role of major record labels. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. This is a solo episode! I break down four important topics:

  1. Saudi Arabia investing in music
  2. The “Song of the Summer” is no more
  3. Pop star decline: winners, losers, and trends
  4. Spotify’s podcast strategy and the creator economy


[00:04:22] Saudi investors exploring entertainment and tech, except music.

[00:07:50] Music festivals present opportunity for strategic investment.

[00:08:47] Investment activity in acquiring back catalog.

[00:13:12] Songs of summer: fragmented, subjective, lost meaning.

[00:16:52] Song anticipates spring/summer, dominates airwaves, summer-themed video.

[00:20:51] Pop star decline: articles highlight big changes.

[00:24:22] Limited inventory shifted to infinite digital options.

[00:28:20] Music industry shifts in less than a decade.

[00:32:12] Valuable data for advertisers and podcasters.

[00:36:05] ConvertKit founder rejects Spotify acquisition attempt; insights on equity sharing for bootstrap businesses. Podcasters' success rate low but valuable. Creator economy companies seek capital for growth.

[00:38:27] Unicorn-like success stories, underestimated expectations.

[00:41:27] Personalized services to artists, potentially disrupting the traditional role of major record labels.


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 2752 no The Music Industry: A Tale of Two Cities https://www.trapital.com/podcast In today's episode, I’m joined by Kakul Srivastava, CEO of Splice. We discuss the untapped potential of the music production market, how music shapes our lives, and the need for more accessibility in music. We also discuss the potential of AI in creative tools, Splice’s future, and more: [00:04:56] Music’s overlooked and underserved market [00:06:43] A tale of two cities [00:12:29] The digital music producer market [00:21:26] The right balance with AI [00:29:56] Leading with empathy [00:33:12] Hard decisions made at Splice [00:41:05] Splice and the billion-dollar exit [00:46:39] How Nike inspires Splice This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by readingTrapital’s free memo. Fri, 08 Sep 2023 09:00:00 -0000 The Music Industry: A Tale of Two Cities full Dan Runcie In today's episode, I’m joined by Kakul Srivastava, CEO of Splice. We discuss the untapped potential of the music production market, how music shapes our lives, and the need for more accessibility in music. We also discuss the potential of AI in creative tools, Splice’s future, and more: [00:04:56] Music’s overlooked and underserved market [00:06:43] A tale of two cities [00:12:29] The digital music producer market [00:21:26] The right balance with AI [00:29:56] Leading with empathy [00:33:12] Hard decisions made at Splice [00:41:05] Splice and the billion-dollar exit [00:46:39] How Nike inspires Splice This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by readingTrapital’s free memo. In today's episode, I’m joined by Kakul Srivastava, CEO of Splice. We discuss the untapped potential of the music production market, how music shapes our lives, and the need for more accessibility in music. We also discuss the potential of AI in creative tools, Splice’s future, and more:

[00:04:56] Music’s overlooked and underserved market

[00:06:43] A tale of two cities

[00:12:29] The digital music producer market

[00:21:26] The right balance with AI

[00:29:56] Leading with empathy

[00:33:12] Hard decisions made at Splice

[00:41:05] Splice and the billion-dollar exit

[00:46:39] How Nike inspires Splice

This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by readingTrapital’s free memo.

]]> 2866 no Napster's Impact on Music and Culture https://www.trapital.com/podcast Napster. The name alone brings back memories of the wild, wild west of the dot-com bubble. We'll take you back to the late 90s and early 2000s. Sean Parker and Shawn Fanning’s creation was a game-changer. But was its influence bigger than its actual impact? Who won and lost the most from Napster? Could the situation have been handled differently? We break down all that and more I’m joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Here’s everything we covered this episode: [00:002:13] Napster's rise [00:8:25] CD boom, internet growth, Sean and Shawn [00:13:43] Internet culture in the late 90s [00:18:21] Napster's early growth in users. [00:25:07] Artists picked sides on the Napster debate [00:36:55] Legal and business model challenges. [00:42:13] When Napster shut its doors [00:48:32] Asking for permission vs forgiveness [01:00:10] Limewire, BearShare, and KaZaa [01:08:16] Life after Napster for Shawn Fanning and Sean Parker [01:14:41] Where Napster is today This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 01 Sep 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Napster's Impact on Music and Culture full Dan Runcie Napster. The name alone brings back memories of the wild, wild west of the dot-com bubble. We'll take you back to the late 90s and early 2000s. Sean Parker and Shawn Fanning’s creation was a game-changer. But was its influence bigger than its actual impact? Who won and lost the most from Napster? Could the situation have been handled differently? We break down all that and more I’m joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Here’s everything we covered this episode: [00:002:13] Napster's rise [00:8:25] CD boom, internet growth, Sean and Shawn [00:13:43] Internet culture in the late 90s [00:18:21] Napster's early growth in users. [00:25:07] Artists picked sides on the Napster debate [00:36:55] Legal and business model challenges. [00:42:13] When Napster shut its doors [00:48:32] Asking for permission vs forgiveness [01:00:10] Limewire, BearShare, and KaZaa [01:08:16] Life after Napster for Shawn Fanning and Sean Parker [01:14:41] Where Napster is today This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Napster. The name alone brings back memories of the wild, wild west of the dot-com bubble.

We'll take you back to the late 90s and early 2000s. Sean Parker and Shawn Fanning’s creation was a game-changer. But was its influence bigger than its actual impact? Who won and lost the most from Napster? Could the situation have been handled differently? We break down all that and more

I’m joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Here’s everything we covered this episode:


[00:002:13] Napster's rise

[00:8:25] CD boom, internet growth, Sean and Shawn

[00:13:43] Internet culture in the late 90s

[00:18:21] Napster's early growth in users.

[00:25:07] Artists picked sides on the Napster debate

[00:36:55] Legal and business model challenges.

[00:42:13] When Napster shut its doors

[00:48:32] Asking for permission vs forgiveness

[01:00:10] Limewire, BearShare, and KaZaa

[01:08:16] Life after Napster for Shawn Fanning and Sean Parker

[01:14:41] Where Napster is today


This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading

Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 4941 no MTV: Music Videos, Reality TV, and Ridiculousness https://www.trapital.com/podcast I Want My MTV! We broke down one of the most influential companies in music: MTV. I’m joined by friend of the pod, Zack Greenburg, who wrote a book about one of MTV’s biggest star’s ever, Michael Jackson. We discuss the highs, lows, challenges, controversies MTV faced. From its business model over the years, shift to reality TV, VMAs, TRL, Yo MTV Raps, impact on culture, and its missed opportunities. [00:08:43] MTV business model, rise of cable TV, untapped teenage market [00:15:50] The impact of Michael Jackson and “I Want My MTV” [00:25:22] How MTV sparked one-hit wonders [00:30:01] Yo MTV Raps! [00:38:59] Movies, VMAs, and more [00:53:55] Reality TV vs music videos: what fans really want? [01:00:47] MTV animated shows, spring break, Super Bowl, Rock the Vote [01:05:58] Music industry peak, TRL, and big budget music videos [01:12:17] Why Ridiculousness is now on MTV all the time [01:20:44] MTV’s missed chances over the years [01:37:26] Who won and lost the most from MTV? This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Fri, 25 Aug 2023 09:01:00 -0000 MTV: Music Videos, Reality TV, and Ridiculousness full Dan Runcie I Want My MTV! We broke down one of the most influential companies in music: MTV. I’m joined by friend of the pod, Zack Greenburg, who wrote a book about one of MTV’s biggest star’s ever, Michael Jackson. We discuss the highs, lows, challenges, controversies MTV faced. From its business model over the years, shift to reality TV, VMAs, TRL, Yo MTV Raps, impact on culture, and its missed opportunities. [00:08:43] MTV business model, rise of cable TV, untapped teenage market [00:15:50] The impact of Michael Jackson and “I Want My MTV” [00:25:22] How MTV sparked one-hit wonders [00:30:01] Yo MTV Raps! [00:38:59] Movies, VMAs, and more [00:53:55] Reality TV vs music videos: what fans really want? [01:00:47] MTV animated shows, spring break, Super Bowl, Rock the Vote [01:05:58] Music industry peak, TRL, and big budget music videos [01:12:17] Why Ridiculousness is now on MTV all the time [01:20:44] MTV’s missed chances over the years [01:37:26] Who won and lost the most from MTV? This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. I Want My MTV! We broke down one of the most influential companies in music: MTV. I’m joined by friend of the pod, Zack Greenburg, who wrote a book about one of MTV’s biggest star’s ever, Michael Jackson.

We discuss the highs, lows, challenges, controversies MTV faced. From its business model over the years, shift to reality TV, VMAs, TRL, Yo MTV Raps, impact on culture, and its missed opportunities.


[00:08:43] MTV business model, rise of cable TV, untapped teenage market

[00:15:50] The impact of Michael Jackson and “I Want My MTV”

[00:25:22] How MTV sparked one-hit wonders

[00:30:01] Yo MTV Raps!

[00:38:59] Movies, VMAs, and more

[00:53:55] Reality TV vs music videos: what fans really want?

[01:00:47] MTV animated shows, spring break, Super Bowl, Rock the Vote

[01:05:58] Music industry peak, TRL, and big budget music videos

[01:12:17] Why Ridiculousness is now on MTV all the time

[01:20:44] MTV’s missed chances over the years

[01:37:26] Who won and lost the most from MTV?


This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 6066 no Unpacking the Economics of Taylor Swift https://www.trapital.com/podcast Taylor Swift is on track for the first $1B+ tour ever, but that’s old news.. In this episode, we look beyond the public drama surrounding her masters and unpack the questions that have been overlooked. How valuable are the original recordings compared to Taylor’s Version? How will that change once '1989' is re-released? How much money will Ithaca Holdings, Shamrock Capital, Big Machine Label Group, and Taylor herself make in the end? Can anyone else in the music industry pull this off?? Join me and Tim Ingham, founder of Music Business Worldwide, as we unravel the complexities and explore the various stakeholders involved, offering insights and analysis from industry experts. 02:48 Taylor Swift’s record sales and tour results 10:47 Taylor’s NDA with Scooter Braun and 13 Management 17:18 Scooter Braun buys Taylor’s Masters 23:47 The Value of Taylor’s catalogue overtime 28:02 Shamrock Capital ownership of Taylor’s original versions 29:18 Taylor Swift's re-recordings  41:31 Tim’s experience writing deep dive articles on Taylor This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Tue, 15 Aug 2023 18:55:00 -0000 Unpacking the Economics of Taylor Swift full Dan Runcie Taylor Swift is on track for the first $1B+ tour ever, but that’s old news.. In this episode, we look beyond the public drama surrounding her masters and unpack the questions that have been overlooked. How valuable are the original recordings compared to Taylor’s Version? How will that change once '1989' is re-released? How much money will Ithaca Holdings, Shamrock Capital, Big Machine Label Group, and Taylor herself make in the end? Can anyone else in the music industry pull this off?? Join me and Tim Ingham, founder of Music Business Worldwide, as we unravel the complexities and explore the various stakeholders involved, offering insights and analysis from industry experts. 02:48 Taylor Swift’s record sales and tour results 10:47 Taylor’s NDA with Scooter Braun and 13 Management 17:18 Scooter Braun buys Taylor’s Masters 23:47 The Value of Taylor’s catalogue overtime 28:02 Shamrock Capital ownership of Taylor’s original versions 29:18 Taylor Swift's re-recordings  41:31 Tim’s experience writing deep dive articles on Taylor This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Taylor Swift is on track for the first $1B+ tour ever, but that’s old news..

In this episode, we look beyond the public drama surrounding her masters and unpack the questions that have been overlooked.

How valuable are the original recordings compared to Taylor’s Version? How will that change once '1989' is re-released? How much money will Ithaca Holdings, Shamrock Capital, Big Machine Label Group, and Taylor herself make in the end? Can anyone else in the music industry pull this off??

Join me and Tim Ingham, founder of Music Business Worldwide, as we unravel the complexities and explore the various stakeholders involved, offering insights and analysis from industry experts.


02:48 Taylor Swift’s record sales and tour results

10:47 Taylor’s NDA with Scooter Braun and 13 Management

17:18 Scooter Braun buys Taylor’s Masters

23:47 The Value of Taylor’s catalogue overtime

28:02 Shamrock Capital ownership of Taylor’s original versions

29:18 Taylor Swift's re-recordings 

41:31 Tim’s experience writing deep dive articles on Taylor



This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital


Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.

]]> 3359 no Hip-Hop's 50 Greatest Moguls https://www.trapital.com/podcast August 11, 2023 is the 50th anniversary of hip-hop. What started out mostly as a spoken word artform has become a worldwide juggernaut. Thanks to the moguls who pushed the genre forward, hip-hop went from 0 to 100. In this episode, we rank the 50 greatest moguls in hip-hop’s history. We reached out to industry experts — from artists to execs to media personalities — to help us compile the list. Friend of the pod, Zack O’Malley Greenburg, joins me to count them down from No. 50 to No. 1 0:39 How do we define “mogul” 7:06 Honorable mentions 09:10 The “Don’t overlook their influence” group (ranks 50-41) 16:19 The “Playing chess not checkers” group (ranks 40-31) 23:38 The “Our impact runs deep” group (ranks 30-21) 33:47 No. 20 35:37 No. 19 37:56 No. 18 41:32 No. 17 44:27 No. 16 47:21 No. 15 51:22 No. 14  55:55 No. 13 59:09 No. 12 1:00:46 No. 11 1:02:16 No. 10 1:04:39 No. 9 1:06:44 No. 8 1:10:20 No. 7 1:14:06 No. 6 1:15:37 No. 5 1:17:11 No. 4 1:20:53 No. 3 1:29:06 No. 2 1:30:34 No. 1 1:33:22 Who got snubbed? 1:35:42 What trends stick out from the list? 1:41:21 Who would you pick to run your empire? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Zack Greenburg: ownership. Was just such an important thing for Nipsey. Such an important thing for Berner. And, you know, interviewing the two of them, I would say, their mindset around ownership was the closest I've ever seen to Jay Z. [00:00:13] Dan Runcie Intro Audio: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:39] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: This episode is a celebration to hip hop's 50th anniversary. This is a countdown on the 50 greatest moguls ever in hip hop. I'm joined by Zack O'Malley Greenburg, friend of the pod, and we both reached out to. A bunch of label heads, executives, people in hip hop that would know best. And we put it together in an aggregate list. And we're here to break down that list today. We talk about what does it mean to be a mogul? What are some of the considerations we made when we were looking into this list ourselves, how the results looked, what surprised us? What were the snubs? What were the misses? And what can we learn from this overall? And if Zack and I were putting together our dream teams, what would that look like? This is a lot of fun. Really happy with how it turned out. So let's dive in. [00:01:25] Dan Runcie: All right, hip hop's 50th anniversary is right around the corner and we decided to celebrate it in the only way that we know best countdown hip hop's greatest moguls and I'm joined by Zack O'malley Greenburg, who reached out to me about this. I was really excited about it and we spent some time over the past couple of weeks, reaching out to people we know, making sure that we have the best insights looking through and making sure that we had all of the. Breakdowns to share. So Zack, I'm ready for this. How are you feeling? [00:01:55] Zack Greenburg: I am stoked. Yeah, I mean, you know, 50th anniversary of hip hop. We reached out to 50 different judges. amongst, you know, the sort of, the most respected folks from, you know, label heads to artists to entrepreneurs, you know, I think we've got half of them, roughly half of them replied since in their votes, we're going to keep their individual votes anonymous, but, you know, Dan could tell you about some of the judges. Yeah, and it was just really fun to kind of mix it up, you know, I think the thing about this list, a lot of these characters are just kind of an apples to oranges comparison as you'll see once we dive into it, but that's the beauty of it, right? I mean, how do you, you know, compare like a pioneering executive to like a modern day artist mogul? And we really kind of left it in the hands of the judges. And we just said, basically the only guidance was, this is a business focused list, but you know, you can rank artists, executives, people who are both. It just, whatever your definition of mogul is, that's how, you know, that's how you should rank them. And people submitted lists and obviously the higher they rank somebody, the more points we gave them and, you know, the lower they got, but, you know, so there's some people on there who are like accumulators. They ended up on everybody's list, but not so high, but, you know, as a result, they ended up on the top 50. And then there are some who were just like, not ranked at all by most people, but had a couple of really high ranks so that they made the list. So I think it's a pretty cool mix. [00:03:10] Dan Runcie: Right? It's kind of like how we look at artists. There's some artists that have just been consistent, steady through and through each year. You'll always get some reliable output from them, but then there are other artists too. They were the best for a certain amount of time. Maybe they cooled off for a bit. Maybe they came back and that's kind of the way music is too. One of the things that. I was asked whenever I was reaching out to people about this was the same thing that you posed earlier. People wanted to know, how are we defining mogul and we left it up to their interpretation. It is a term that means different things to different people, but maybe for the sake of this conversation, let's kick it off here. Zack, how do you define mogul? And how did you define it when creating your list? [00:03:51] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, to me a hip hop mogul, more general is just, you know, somebody who not only is a business person, but has some degree of ownership, in whatever it is that they're doing. that's not the only definition of it for me, but like, you know, when I was putting together my rankings, I thought, you know, who are the owners? the same time, you know, people who are executives who are in a decision making place. you know, that counts for something. And I think also, you know, if you're an artist, and you simply have some control over your own work, you maintain your copyrights, whatever, like that counts as being a mogul.  So, you know, specifically when it comes to hip hop, you know, I'd say people who are, you know, definitely getting in charge of your own work, but also creating new lines of business, you know, influencing the culture. but you know, a way that they've got some skin in the game from a business perspective, you know, that, kind of thing. That's kind of how I looked at it. but you could see from the votes that, you know, everybody had a slightly different definition too. [00:04:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, there was definitely a lot of correlation with the artists who tend to be the ones that are the wealthiest. They end up at the highest rankings in on some of those lists, too, but it wasn't exactly correlated because there's a difference. And these are some of the things I kept in mind, too, with the mogul definition, thinking specifically about influence and impact, were you having, or did you create opportunities for others around you? Were you able to be a bit of a kingmaker or queenmaker in your respective right? Was there a impact in terms of other generations that either looked and modeled how they're doing what they're doing and looking at you as some form of inspiration with that? So there's the indirect impact and influence, but also the, Indirect piece of it too. So there's the money piece as well, but then what do you do with that money? And then that's how I had went about it. And similarly, everyone had their own unique spin to it. [00:05:42] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And, you know, and I think the definition changed over time, of what a mogul really is, but when I was putting my rankings together, I think the idea of starting something new, you know, that's also paramount, amongst all the criteria as well. [00:05:55] Dan Runcie: Right? So, of course, Zack and I had our list, but we reached out to a number of people and several other label heads, executives, and people that are in the game. So thank you all to your contributions. We couldn't have done this without you. And if anything, it helped add a variety beyond just you and I, getting and putting our list out there. It added a more full scope and like anything. Oh, this is how you look at it. Interesting and being able to pull unique insights there. [00:06:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. you know, one thing I think we probably ought to point out, on the list, you know, the list is, heavily male. but it's about only 20% women on the list. you know, we did everything we could obviously to make it more equitable, but, you know, the votes are the votes. And, you know, I think there is a bit of a reflection of sort of the state of affairs over the past half century, you know, unfortunately, like many parts of music business, hip hop has been, you know, heavily overindexing for males. So, you know, here's hoping that when 50 years to do a hundred years of hip hop, you know, we'll have even things out a bit or completely, let's say maybe even, you know, made up for lost time, but I think some of the spots on the list, you know, the rankings do kind of reflect an industry reality that we've seen, unfortunately for 50 years. [00:07:06] Dan Runcie: Right? And hopefully this gets better. We do feel and you'll see when we talk about some of the people here, glad about some of the names that got mentioned. Of course, there's always room to be able to have more and hopefully for hip hop's 100th anniversary. If when and people are breaking that down, there's hopefully even more representation there. So, with that, I think it's probably good for us to get started right before the list, but talk about some of the honorable mentions. So, there were people that didn't quite make the cut of 50, but we still wanted to highlight them and the work that they. Did here. So a few of those names here to give a shout out to. So we have Cindy Campbell, Jermaine Dupree, Audrey Harrell, Jay Cole, Damon John. What comes or what do you think about when you hear those names? [00:07:55] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, you know, I mean, Cindy Campbell, I think in many ways you could look at her as the first promoter in hip hop history, right? I mean, you know, we're talking about 50 years of hip hop. That's 50 years from that first party that. She and DJ Kool Herc through, you know, in the rec room on Cedric Avenue. And, I think the idea was that they were going to raise a little bit of cash so she could go get herself a new back to school wardrobe. Now, if that's not, you know, entrepreneurship and hip hop, you know, from the very beginning, I don't know what it is. And so I think Cindy deserves a ton of credit, for being there at the very beginning, you know, but I think on the honorable mentions to a lot of the folks that are on here, you know, or maybe like a little bit, you know, not exactly falling on the same radar, you know, for the list. So like, you know, Damon John, obviously he did with, you know, creating FUBU and, you know, everything he's done as an entrepreneur, it's incredible, but it, I think it's sort of like more of a national brand that is, you know, apart from hip hop and so is his personality, right? Like you see him on shark tank or, you know, whatever, like he sort of moved past, I wouldn't necessarily categorize him, as just hip hop, although he's had a tremendous impact on hip hop. So I think probably that's why, he wasn't on more lists. It's not to sort of ding him his impact, which is considerable. [00:09:10] Dan Runcie: Right, and I do think that of course, music is one element of hip hop. You do have fashion, you do have others. So music definitely got weighted heavily in this list, but Dave and John and his influence in fashion, and there's other people in fashion and we'll get into them in this list too, but we can't overlook everything he did there and some of the more unique and clever marketing tactics that came from food booth that other people did who will mention in this list as well. 1 person that I do want to highlight here from that list 2 people. So, Jermaine Dupri want to give him a shout out as well. Just everything he was able to do with. So, so Def records. He was part of that movement in the 90s, where you saw LaFace and then all these other groups in the South be able to come up, do their own. There was a so so deaf sound, a so so Def vibe and his ability to do it both in rap, but also have a bit of the soul there. Some of the epic production that he's been involved with, even outside of hip hop, thinking about albums like Mariah Carey's Emancipation of Mimi and others, even though he didn't always do everything in hip hop. I think that some of his influence can't go overstated there. And then the second person who's similar in that regard, I would say is Andre Harrell. We talked about him in past episodes, especially the bad boy one, but everything that he did from Uptown Records and then moving on to Motown Records and gave in many ways helped give Puff the blueprint for what he was able to do years later. [00:10:37] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think Andre had a lot of successes, also had a lot of failures, not necessarily, you know, through his own doing, the time, but definitely somebody who deserves, you know, a hat tip at the very least. And, you know, I'm sure Puff would agree about that too. [00:10:52] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Agreed. All right. We ready ready to get into it. [00:10:57] Zack Greenburg: Let's do it. [00:10:58] Dan Runcie: All right. So in the initial group here, which we're calling the don't overlook their influence group. This is people who are ranked 50 through 41. so in order we have Ethiopia have to Marion at 50. She was the former CEO of Motown. We have Top Dog, co founder and CEO of Top Dog Entertainment. We have Mona Scott Young from her work at Violators and more recently Love Hip Hop. And what she also has done with Hip Hop Homicides and some other multimedia projects. We have T.I. with everything he's done with Grand Hustle and Multimedia. We have Eazy E with Priority Records. Many ways pioneering so much of the stuff we saw. We have Todd Moskowitz, L. A. Reed, Craig Kalman, former CEO from Atlantic. We have Sylvia Roan and then tied for 40. We have Desiree Perez and Steve Stout. What are your thoughts on that group list? [00:11:55] Zack Greenburg: Oh, man, I don't know. Maybe we should just pick out a few here and there that we thought were particularly interesting. I mean, you know, I think Ethiopia is a good example of somebody who would be higher up if she were identified, you know, solely as a, you know, as a hip hop mogul, but she's had kind of like a pretty wide reach, you know, especially in R and B, and pop. I mean, some of the stuff she's done with Erykah Badu, NeYo, Stevie Wonder, you know, like over the years, you know, wouldn't be classified as hip hop, but it's worth it nonetheless. just think that, you know, being kind of like in between, in between genres, you know, resulted in her being down a little bit further on the list. But, you know, somebody who had a tremendous impact. you know, I would also, I would highlight TI here, you know, the self proclaimed King of the South, but, you know, in terms of, I remember the years when, you know, we were putting together the Forbes list and, you know, kind of looking at, you know, kind of regionally who is most important to me. Yeah, he was sort of like. The Jay Z of the South. And he was really, especially when he was having that moment, you know, getting a lot of songs on, you know, national radio and, kind of being in the public eye, I mean, had a tremendous business focus, you know, he was always interested in sort of like, what's the next thing that I can create? and you know, that kind of entrepreneurial energy, you know, I think, especially within the context of the South, like taking the blueprint, from guys like Jay Z, you know, I think he certainly deserves a mention. I kind of thought he'd end up higher here, but I guess he's been, not as, especially in the music front lately. and then I would definitely highlight, Desiree, you know, she's somebody who's been behind the scenes for a really long time, with Jay Z and rock nation, but like. she runs rock nation. And although Jay Z obviously has the final say in things, you know, a lot of things that you see, come out of that camp are, you know, her doing and have her fingerprints all over them. And I know some of y'all might have seen the Book of Hove exhibit at the Brooklyn Museum or the Brooklyn Public Library that was a Desiree Perez production and, you know, she said that it was like her emptying her 80, 000 square foot storage unit into the library, but, you know, but to have, you know, that kind of, impact at a place like Roc Nation and to help, you know, Jay Z do what he's done, you know, I think those are all worthy, of notation and, you know, I think she deserves her spot there for sure. [00:14:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah, Desiree is someone that has been working with Jay Z for a while now, and I feel like she deserved a shout out on Jay's verse in Pound Cake, the Drake song. You know where he's like, Dave made millions, Lyor made millions. I feel like Desiree should have gotten a shout out there too, but yeah. I'm glad that she got mentioned here. Two other names I'll run through quickly. Steve Stout, someone who I thought would have ended up higher, and I know that, you know, it was interesting to see how the results played out, but I do think that one of the best marketers that we've seen come through hip hop. He was ahead of the curve in a number of ways, dating back to the 90s with seeing the men in black sunglasses and everything that he's done there from his time working with Nas, everything that they've done, whether it was the firm or, him being a record executive himself and then showing as well, how he's able to do it in advertising and bringing a lot of these companies and brands that didn't necessarily align or think about being related with, you know, hip hop culture and those elements to be able to do it. You look at a company like State Farm and how we now look at what that company has done. And a lot of that is through his work and obviously with what he's done at United Masters. So shout out there and I also do want to give a shout out to Mona Scott Young mentioned her earlier, but she was a right hand to someone who will mention on the list as well coming up soon with everything she did in Violator, this is back when, you know, Q Tip and Busta Rhymes and that whole crew were doing their thing. And then later, I know people have a lot of polarizing opinions about love and hip hop, but if you look at the career opportunities that were created for people that have came through, and the longevity that she's granted, a lot of people that the record industry forgot about that she was able to continue to give opportunities for think about the trick daddies, Trina's and folks like that. I know people hate to see them arguing on camera, but would we have Cardi B where she is today? If it weren't for the platform of love and hip hop, and she's continued to do things with other vocals on the list that we'll get into. So I do want to give a shout out to her [00:16:08] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, definitely a worthy shout out. And we could probably go on and on about even just like the tent in this bracket here, but I suppose we ought to, we ought to move on to the next room before, before we run [00:16:19] Dan Runcie: indeed. Yep. So the next group is playing chest, not checkers. So at 39, we have Dave Mays, founder of the source 38. We have Irv Gotti, founder of Murder, Inc. 37, Cardi B 36, Lil Wayne 35, Nipsey Hussle, 34. Steve Rifkin, from Loud Records 33, Missy Elliot. 32 Birder from Cookies, 31 Kevin Lyles and 30 Chris Lighty. [00:16:47] Zack Greenburg: Oh man, this is a pretty stacked bracket, I must say. I think that, you know, there are a couple of names that stick out to me here. I'm going to go with Nipsey and Berner, because in a funny way, I think, they have like a sort of a similar, a sort of similar strategy, which is like, you have a very clear idea of what it is that you're going to do. You own it, and then you, you know, you continue to own it like ownership. Was just such an important thing for Nipsey. Such an important thing for Berner. And, you know, interviewing the two of them, I would say, their mindset around ownership was the closest I've ever seen to Jay Z. and they really understood from the beginning that they had to own all their music. Own all of their branding own, you know, the companies that create on the side and then they can monetize it later. And, you know, with Nipsey rest in peace. I mean, he was just on the cusp of, of kind of like becoming a mainstream superstar, you know, when, his life ended all too soon. So, I think what Berner is doing with cookies is really fascinating like Berner is, you know, you want to talk, lists. I mean, he's in the top five, probably the top four or three at this point, in terms of net worth for actual, hip hop artists. And that's because of the success of cookies and, you know, there's been, a lot of ups and downs in the cannabis business lately, but like the amount of ownership that he has, you know, I think it amounts to about one third still of cookies, which is, you know, a billion dollar brand. When we gets legalized, you know, like he's going to see the fruits of his labor and, that focus on ownership I think is really going to pay off on the longterm. So I would highlight those two guys, in this tier as the ones that, I think were the most impressive to me. That's not to shade anybody else, but, [00:18:25] Dan Runcie: Yeah, those two guys are also two of the few people who I see people still wearing their merchandise on a regular basis. Granted, I live in San Francisco. There's a cookie store here. So, I mean, I know there is a local connection for sure, but same with Nipsey Hussle. I mean, sadly, it's now been over 4 years since he passed away, and you still see Crenshaw shirts. He understood, Nipsey especially, understood exactly where everything's going. And it's just so sad that, you know, it was gone so soon. Two names, I'm going to shout out here. I'm going to shout. I'm going to shout out Cardi B and I want to shout out Chris Lighty. So Cardi B talked about her a little with the Mona Scott young piece, but she's entered and ran her rap career more uniquely than other artists that we've seen at her level have. And I think that speaks a lot to just where the game is now. It's been over six years since Bodak Yellow came out. And it's been over five years now since her debut album. This is someone who hasn't put out a studio album in over five years. And hasn't gone on tour in a traditional way, but it's still doing her thing. And I think this is one of the things that's unique. She finds interesting ways to monetize herself and to put herself on. She's like, Hey, I can do these private shows and they're going to pay me, you know, 1. 5 million or 3 million just to do a half an hour set. I'm going to do my thing. I'm going to be there at Super Bowl weekend. I may not be performing at the Super Bowl, but I'm going to go do these private shows for Bob craft or the fanatics event or all these things and collect the checks. it's very interesting to see younger artists to do that Lionel Richie playbook, but she is like, Hey, I don't necessarily have to do that. And even though people always do try to, you know, loop her into the Nicki Minaj versus Cardi B beef, she still has lended her hand and extended it to other young artists, especially women in the game, whether it's Ice Spice and others, whether she's doing it through her talents and others. So she's someone that I hope as she continues on, you know, into her thirties and into her forties can continue to rise up this list. And then Chris Lighty talked about a little bit with Mona Sky Young, co founder of Violator and everything they're able to do there. Sad that he was taken away so soon, but if you have not heard this yet and if you haven't listened to the podcast, I highly recommend the Mogul podcast series that was done several years ago on it. It was done by Reggie Yose, who is Combat Jack, who has since passed away as well, but I highly recommend that if you want a full breakdown on everything Chris Leite did. Violator and after that was truly one of the early ones looking at product partnerships and a lot of the things that we see now that are common in hip hop. [00:21:07] Zack Greenburg: And, you know, if we didn't have Chris Lighty, I don't think we would have had 50 Cent. I mean, at least not to the extent that we have him. you know, I mean, I remember writing my first story about 50 and like for Forbes, maybe 2008 and sitting down with Chris and just kind of like hearing him lay out the plan. And again, it's the emphasis on ownership, right? you know, Chris Leidy, I think was the one who really pushed, 50 to take the equity in vitamin water and his parent company, rather than just do an endorsement. And, you know, obviously that became a huge, deal and really like a model for so much, not only of hip hop, but like other parts of the entertainment industry, you know, I think Chris definitely deserves a spot, maybe even should be a little higher. and you know, probably also, there's, you know, again, all these folks deserve a shout out, but Kevin Lyles, I think is, got one of the most inspirational stories. you know, it's another person, I think we've both interviewed a bunch of times, but, you know, just his journey from intern to president of Def Jam and I think seven years. And he just did it by working harder than everybody else like he wasn't an artist that got put there because he had some hit, it wasn't some kind of like nepotism deal, you know, he just outworked everybody and, you know, he had the talent and, you know, the horsepower to just like get it done. And to make that journey within seven years. So I think it's, for people who are listening and, you know, want to do something like that with their own career, you know, study Kevin Miles because he was able to make it, without being, you know, some kind of like preternatural, singing talent or something like that he just did it on smarts and work ethic. [00:22:39] Dan Runcie: And one of the few people that co founded a record label and sold it a decade later for hundreds of millions of dollars, which is what he did 300 as well. Right? So of course, not 300 now underwater, but everything he did with Lyor and Todd, there, is impressive. There's not that many black founders in general. In tech, any sector that have built and exited companies for several hundred, a million dollars, the way that he was able to be a part of that. So, hats off him. [00:23:09] Zack Greenburg: yeah, I think it takes a special kind of guts to be able to, you know, I mean, he was a well paid executive with a cushy music job, you know, to leave that world, start your own thing. I mean, I know they had, you know, big backers and everything, but like to take a risk once you've already experienced that level of success and to go out and start something, you know, as opposed to starting something from scratch when you have nothing anyway. I mean, it, takes a lot of gumption to do that. So, you know, again, yes, a pretty cool second act for Kevin miles. [00:23:38] Dan Runcie: Indeed, the next group here, our impact runs deep. It is Nicki Will Smith at 28, Swiss beats 27, LL Cool J, 26, Coach K and P, 25, Julie Greenwald, 24. The E40 23, Pharrell 22, and Rick Ross, 21. [00:24:01] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I think, that's a pretty strong, deck there. And I think also, you know, here, you find some people who, you could argue should be higher or lower based on, you know, how much of their career was done in the hip hop music world, right? Like Queen Latifah, LL Cool J, Will Smith. Obviously those are huge crossover acts. but I think they all got a lot of points from some of the voters because, you know, that is in one way, the measure of a mogul, like you're diversifying your portfolio and whether that's by owning different things or, you know, by getting into, different types of performance, you know, on the silver screen, I think that's a viable path too. but just from like a purely musical entrepreneurial perspective, I would highlight, Swiss Beats and Pharrell, who I think, you know, the two of them are more influential than anybody in terms of like, I'd say Swizz in terms of art and Pharrell in terms of fashion. and you know, some of the things they've done around those two areas and, you know, Pharrell certainly, now with LVMH, but also before with Ice Cream, Billionaire Boys Club, you know, he was very active in starting his own things on the fashion side. And, you know, kind of inspiring artists to do that. you know, would we have had a Yeezy if we hadn't had Pharrell, you know, doing what he was doing and, you know, and even doing what he did with Adidas? you know, I don't know about that. And, Swiss beads certainly, you know, not only from the art side of things, but you know, it's a really impressive art collection. I did a story on him a few years ago and, you know, he's got like, Jeff Kuhn sculptures and Basquiat's and Warhol's and his, you know, like in his foyer. I mean, it's, pretty impressive stuff. but the way that he moves behind the scenes, as sort of like a corporate brand whisperer, at places, you know, like Bacardi, Lotus, you know, this goes on, you know, I think he, he's sort of like more quietly influential than, some folks realize. And, you know, certainly has been earning, on par with, you know, with all the, you know, most of the names, if not higher than most of the names we've mentioned so far. and you know, what he's done on the, both of them, what they've done on the production side, also hard to top. So that must count for something as well. I kind of went more than one shout out there, didn't I? So [00:26:06] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, that was good. That was good. I'm glad you mentioned the two of them though, because if you didn't, I probably would've called the other one out. The thing about Swiss as well, everything that he's done with versus specifically also embodies this idea and definition of a mogul because he was able to be. A kingmaker in the sense of creating opportunities for others. He did that through the equity that he was able to give all of those early participants in versus in trailer itself. And then additionally, with the careers that we're able to have a boost because of. everything that happened, with the matchups from versus specifically, you look at someone like Ashanti, who is now doing tours and pop it up every now and then she wasn't doing that before her versus and her battle versus Keisha Cole was one of the not, if not the most watched one that we've had. You look at Jadakiss and everything that he's been able to do since his epic showdown against, with Lox versus Dipset with that versus you look at Jeezy versus Gucci Mane. I know that versus definitely had its peak popularity during the pandemic, but that kind of stuff that he was able to do with Timbaland, I think also speaks so much to everything that he's been able to do there. And another person I want to mention to that was in this group as well that I think is similar is LL Cool J because I think similar to the way that. Swiss beets is Ella is also with someone that's been involved with multimedia with everything from the jump. He was the 1st artist to truly breakthrough from Def Jam and did it as a teenager. So, of course, he gets plenty of shout out for that, but he's also always been trying to find ways to look out for that next generation of artists. And he's been doing some of that more recently with rock the bells, and that's its own. Company and entity now where they have a festival coming up as well to celebrate things that are happening with hip hops anniversary. So it's been cool to see him do things as well. And I'll give a very brief shout out here to, coach K and P because they, similar to how I mentioned, Kevin Liles were able to build and grow a company and then sell it for, I believe, forget the exact sale price for, quality control. But they were able to do that thanks in part to a lot of the work that Ethiopia had done, helping to give quality control, the platform that it did, and especially in an era where I think it's harder for a record label to have a true brand, they were able to help give it a boost. [00:28:36] Zack Greenburg: That's true. And on that note of labels, I think Julie Greenwald, there's a mention, you know, she and Craig Kalman, who's mentioned, in an earlier grouping, you know, run Atlantic together. And there's a lot of, of music that we wouldn't have seen if it had been for the two of them, you know, running the show over there. So, shout out to Julie. I mean, the only one actually we haven't discussed here with E40 and Rick Ross. And I don't know, you know, probably get moving, but, do you think Rick Ross deserves to be number 21 on this entire list? Like ahead of Pharrell, ahead of, you know, some of the other names on here. I was surprised that he was ranked this high. [00:29:09] Dan Runcie: I love the spicy questions. Cause this is what people wanted to hear the podcast about, right? They wanted to hear one of us, you know, poke the bear a little bit. If Rick Ross was able to nail that dive in the pool, do you think you would have ranked him higher? [00:29:21] Zack Greenburg: Ha ha ha ha ha ha. No, no, I wouldn't. I mean, I still know. I mean, you know, like I get it, you know, he's called the boss that he must be a mogul, You know, and, some of the things he's done in terms of, you know, Bel Air and Maybach music and all that. Sure. But like, you know, when you put them up against like some of the other ones, did he really do something new or was he more just like following a, blueprint that had worked for others before and, you know, executing it to a degree success, but like, again, not, you know, not to the level of, let's say Pharrell. I think maybe I just, I'm salty that he ended up ahead of Pharrell. I think Pharrell is just way more influential and Mowgli, but, I don't know. What do you think? [00:29:59] Dan Runcie: So, I've read 2 of Ross's books and I interviewed him once on Trapital. I think that, to your point, he did follow the blueprint that we saw from others. I think he is smart about the types of partnerships he does, but it does feel like a ditty light. Type of playbook that he's been able to do and build. And I do think a lot of it makes sense. He may not necessarily have the large media entities the way that he does. Although I do think he's overdue for some type of comedy show or some type of reality show just following him around because I think he's hilarious. And anytime that he gets that, it could just generate something unique. And I'm sure he's been hit up about it. I do think that he's done well for himself. Just thinking about. Now, how his career is growing, I think it's been what, 16, 17 years since hustling 1st came out. I think in this range, there is some flexibility there in terms of like, where people are in certain ways. I get why he may not necessarily be as high. I'm sure if you looked at the net worth or the earnings, that some of the people that are lower than him may actually be higher. I think 1 of the knocks potentially is although Maybach music was cool. I wrote about this in Trapit as well. I think there was a missed opportunity. And part of that comes from, huh, did Ross do all the things that he probably could have done from a leadership perspective to especially like, when Meek Mill and Wally were beefing and stuff. And I think Ross had a bit more of a laissez faire approach to things, which in some ways is kind of the opposite of King making as we're talking about this, right? Can we really bring folks together and make something larger than it is. I think it was a bit tough in general for people to try to do everything themselves, try to be the boss of this label, which is signed to a different label because Rick Ross was signed to a different label than MNG was himself. And I think anytime you have that type of dynamic, it's just splitting the leadership interests. So I hear you. [00:32:00] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. So then how much of a mogul are you, if your label is really, you know, so I guess everybody's labels on somebody else's label and have you distributed by something, but you know, it's like when they're like multiple labels kind of, you know, intertwined with your label, it kind of causes the question. are you really the boss? If you have several bosses that you're answering to, but you know, I think actually though. in Rick Ross's defense, what he's done with Wingstop, I mean, that is pretty unique and, I don't know that anybody else on this list has something comparable in that space. So, you know, maybe that's why, I think, you know, by virtue of that, you could put them pretty high up. And maybe that's what some of the judges were thinking, you know, but he also ended up on a lot of lists, you know, so some of the judges just kind of like, maybe we're getting to some of the judges sent rank lists, and they're like, you know, this person is the top and they should get the most points and other people were like, here are my people. And you can just rank them evenly. and I think Rick Ross ended up on a lot of those lists. So, you know. I think again, maybe like I was alluding to earlier, he's a bit of a compiler, nothing wrong with that, you know, you can get into the hall of fame by compiling 3000 hits, but, it's interesting to see how, how the opinions differ. That's the whole fun of it. [00:33:06] Dan Runcie: He runs his business is almost like how a small business owner would in a number of ways where he has a bunch of car washes and, you know, his is 1 of the family members does that he has his wing stops, right? He has that. And it is a bit of this, like, mogul dumbness from that perspective in terms of like, okay, I have my hands in these things and I've hired people to have, you know, different roles within that that doesn't necessarily have things in aggregate. It's a bit more of the strip mall mentality as opposed to the, you know, building a skyscraper that could then build other skyscrapers, but it's something worth mentioning, but I hope we keep that up with a few of the other rankings we have coming up as we dig into the top 20, here. So, yeah, let's start with 20. So, 20, Queen Latifah, I think that she and, Ice Cube, who we'll get into in a minute, were one of the first that noticed, hey, I may not be able to do this rap thing forever, what are areas that I can expand this multimedia empire and everything I'm building. She was able to do this with Living Single, the show that was Friends before Friends was, and even the way that she was able to show young black people that were having, you know, highly sought after roles, but they still had their interpersonal dynamics. It was cool. It was refreshing. It was aspirational, which I do think that a lot of the black sitcoms were in the 90s. And she was able to do that, continue finding ways to put other people on as well through the work that she did. She was also willing to take risks. Like I remember when she was in set it off, people had a bunch of questions about, Oh, you're going to play a lesbian in this heist movie. What is this going to do for your career? And she was willing to do that. And I think she is always, you know, be willing to take risks. So, you know, shout out to her and I'm glad that several people have mentioned her [00:34:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think she gets credit for, like you say, diversifying her portfolio. you know, into the acting world. it's worth noting, you know, she was barely ahead of Rick Ross. but you know, there is a big difference between 21 and 20. It's the top 20. So, again, I think, you know, she was a bit of a compiler, but there were a couple of people who ranked her in the top 10. and, you know, I think just like in terms of the breadth of her career, you know, the longevity, the diversity of the things that she's gotten into. you know, even if it's not as much ownership as somebody, even like a Rick Ross, it's just like, having your hands in a lot of pies and like that really counts for something as a mogul. So, I think it makes sense to see you there. [00:35:36] Dan Runcie: Agreed 19 is Eminem. So let's talk about it. How do we feel about Eminem in 19? [00:35:43] Zack Greenburg: You know, I think it's a weird one, honestly. you know, there's no doubting, his lyrical prowess and where, you know, where he kind of stacks up as part of like the pantheon of lyricists, like fine. But is he really a mogul? I mean, he's somebody who has been, you know, very reclusive at times.  Who has, you know, kind of gotten in his own way at other times. I mean, I could see ranking him up here though, just by virtue of ownership of the music and sort of like the quality and quantity of his catalog. you know, what he did with D12, you know, he did have shady records and, you know, and all that. So again, you know, there, there is kind of a layer cake of a label situation, like some of the folks who mentioned earlier across, but, you know, that was at least important to him to set up, you know, as his continued ownership of, You know, his work and, you know, certainly when it comes to like raw commercial prowess, you know, Eminem, is one of the best selling hip hop artists of all time. If not the best, depending on how you look at it. And just, you know, simply by virtue of the amount of revenue he generated, you know, throughout the late 90s and early aughts at the peak of the sort of CD age there. you know, that deserves, some kind of something, even if he wasn't running around starting his own, you know, side businesses as much as some of these other folks [00:37:02] Dan Runcie: Best selling artist of the 2000s by a pretty strong amount, I believe, and has the most of any genre, right? And the most streamed song of the 2000s as well, at least on Spotify with Lose Yourself, and I'm pretty sure Till I Collapse and maybe a couple of others aren't too far. Behind as Will Page as Spotify's former chief economist said, anytime Eminem farts or burps or releases anything on a streaming service, it provides a huge bump to everything in this back catalog. So, I still laugh about that, but I do think that speaks to it there and. If, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was one of the first hip hop artists to have a Sirius XM channel himself. So that's something that's unique and obviously Sirius is still doing its thing. So, shout out to him there. A bit higher than I probably would have ranked him, but that's why it's interesting to get the group results here. Ah, this one's gonna be spicy. Number 18. Your boy, Suge Knight. [00:38:02] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, you know, I mean, I think this is one of the tougher ones on the entire list. You know, this is not like a list of, Ms. Congeniality or Mr. Congeniality, as you'll see, you know, some of the other names on here. Obviously, you know, Suge is in jail. he's been involved in the death of, you know, human beings that like that is, you know, not sort of like what you're after in a mogul here, but, enough people, you know, I guess felt that the business, if you just, you know, looking at it from a pure business perspective, was enough to put them up here. And, you know, there is no arguing that death row at its peak was one of the most influential record labels, you know, not just in hip hop, but of anything. I mean, any genre, when death row was at its hottest, I don't know any, kind of moment where any other, you know, you'd have to stack that up against peak Motown or, you know, Atlantic or something like that, but, you know, that was really like a, peak moment. So, you know, I think this is one of the things we run into on this list like if somebody exhibits, a level of, you know, sort of business ingenuity, you know, that counts for something and, you know, the other things that you do in your life and your career, you know, we'll detract from that, but, you know, what you did at your peak, I think will get you pretty far in a list like this when people kind of count, you know, we kind of count sort of like the ceiling as opposed to the average, in some cases. So, I don't know. What do you think? [00:39:27] Dan Runcie: These are the two most impressive business moves that Suge Knight has done. Number two is shaking down Vanilla Ice to get his points for everything that he did on the album that had Ice Ice Baby there. Because he was able to use that money to then start and co found Death Row with Dr. Dre. That's number two. Number one is at the 1995 Source Awards where he publicly makes his Call to attract Tupac to say, Hey, I know you're in jail, but we're riding with you. Tupac wasn't signed there at the time, but he knew that this was an opportunity. Tupac likely needed somewhere to call a home and he called his shot. He was able to make it happen. I know everyone talks about the diddy shot about, you know, being all in the video death row. And that, of course, is infamous in its own right. But I think the number one thing that should night did is that that said. those 2 things speak to what should night is, 1, it is that muscle and the prowess of being able to overpower a situation and then take advantage. And I think those were things that he was good at. That said, I don't think he was necessarily strong as a. Business leader, the company imploded in large part. And I don't think it imploded because of Dr. Dre, it imploded because of all of the things, all the shenanigans. And I think for what he was building, some of that just got a little too close to the sun, unfortunately. And, that's Chuck Knight [00:40:49] Zack Greenburg: And, I think that, you know, in some of the reporting I've done over the years, One of the things people say is that Shug and a lot of the guys around him, you know, it wasn't that they were necessarily like that. It's just they kind of had been watching too many bad gangster movies and the music business, didn't know what to do with somebody like Suge Knight. And so the more he kind of like played this role, the more he grew into it to where, to the point where he was actually living sort of a bad gangster movie. and sort of like created, turned himself into a monster. Yeah, so I think like the evolution. or the evolution, of somebody like Suge Knight is sort of fascinating in terms of like what you can, what sort of playing a role can do to you, over the course of time. [00:41:32] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And well said number 17 here is America's most wanted ice cube. I'll start here to kick things off. I think that Ice Cube, like Queen Latifah mentioned earlier, was one of the early ones who had said that he knew that living and doing everything off a raft wasn't gonna last forever. And I think a lot of it was because he experienced some of the brunt and ugliness of it. I mean, we've all seen the Straight Outta Compton movie. He goes into Jerry Heller's office. He starts smashing shit. He releases no Vaseline. There was definitely a no fucks given that carried through even after he was done with NWA, but he saw what this industry is like as well and then that's when he starts writing screenplays. And then that's how Friday because the thing becomes a thing. And then. His career just continues to take off after that he still dabbled in rap and did his thing, but he definitely became known early on for one of the people that took a risk with cube entertainment and everything that he was able to do there. And with any of the movies that he had, whether it was the movies with Mike Epps and plenty others, I do believe that most of these movies were pretty profitable. And he was able to. Do it work within the confines that he had and just continue to build everything he did from a career. We've seen him expand as well into everything that he's done with the big 3 specifically giving a home for basketball players that can still play, but maybe they can't make, you know, a 13 person NBA roster anymore. I do think that some of his more recent news highlights that are a bit more politically driven or him walking around with Tucker Carlson and probably take it away from some of the more prominent memories of Hugh Ice Cube is, but yeah, that's why I had had him or that's why he, I think deserves to be, you know, where he is, on the list. [00:43:27] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think it's interesting, you know, you see, Eminem, Suge Knight, Ice Cube, all together, you know, they're all, inextricably connected to Dr. Dre. one way or the other. Right. and you know, would there, would Dre have been Dre without the three of them? you know, at different phases of his career, you know, I don't know, I mean, I think certainly what, Ice Cube did as part of NWA, you know, I wouldn't say that, that NWA was like. like a business first organization. But like that wasn't the point of NWA and if it hadn't been for NWA, I don't think you would have been able to have business first organizations come out of hip hop in the way that you did. and certainly, you know, somebody like Dr. Dre, so. I think he gets extra points for that. and, you know, this is probably why, you know, he was again, I don't know, was he compiler? He was, you know, he had like a lot of kind of middling, a lot of lists, a couple of top 10 votes, you know? So, you know, I think again, everybody has their favorite and he's up there for a lot of folks. [00:44:27] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Number 16 is Drake. Should we poke the bear again? [00:44:33] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Does Drake deserve to be at number 16 on this list? [00:44:37] Dan Runcie: This one surprised me, I was very surprised at the number of people that had him on the list, because you can make a case for the opposite, right? It's similar to the M and M thing, but almost to the extreme because M and M, yes, most commercially successful artists, XYZ. There's other artists that are less commercially successful at M and M that did more in that mogul definition but for Drake, it's even bigger of a Delta between these two, because here you have the most streamed artists of all time. So clearly commercially successful on its own, but people believe that OVO. Records or OVO sound itself actually could hurt an artist's career. And when you think about that, you think about some of the other multimedia things that he's done. I know he's been active as an investor and I know that people like Nicki Minaj and others have said, Oh, you know, Drake's a low key billionaire. He just doesn't want you to know it personally. Again, he may be, I mean, I'm not sure what he may not disclose, but it isn't always just about wealth. It's like, what opportunities were you able to create for each other? I do think it's good. That drink has been able to have different people that have been working alongside that. I think did get a bit of that drink stimulus package. And I think that's something that is quite debated, but I do think that. I feel like 21 Savage has definitely benefited from it. I mean, he was already commercially successful, but for him and Drake to do a joint album together was huge. I think it was the same way that it was huge for Future and the same way that the Migos going on tour with Drake in 2018 was huge for them and anything else that Drake continues to do from that perspective. So I think it is, you know, debatable, but I mean, people do definitely add some weight to the artists themselves. [00:46:18] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And, you know, I think he should be around Eminem and whether they're both too high is an open question, but, you know, there's no doubting the commercial viability of what he's done. He did start more side businesses in Eminem, right? With OVO, whether it's the label, the festival, the clothing line, you know, he started a whiskey brand called Virginia black, which I tried once. It tasted okay. but I don't think it's selling, you know, I don't know if he's even still doing it. yeah, he is definitely involved as a startup investor, so maybe, you know, we'll see some exits and we start to think of him differently at that point. But, yeah, you know, again, I think it's, some voters just kind of overweighted, you know, musical prowess and pop culture influence. And if you're talking about that, I, I don't know anybody who's been as influential in the past 15 years. I mean, he's, you know, he's the most streamed artist of all time and that's got to count for something. [00:47:08] Dan Runcie: Right. I know his cannabis line failed, but there's a lot of people, even people that we'll get to in this list that have also had failed or struggling cannabis businesses. And, there's a lot that we could discuss there, but moving on number 15 is Sylvia Robinson, the originator. [00:47:26] Zack Greenburg: I think she deserves to be in the top five, personally. because if there were no Sylvia Robinson, yeah, I mean, I don't know that we have hip hop and, you know, it's, you know, for those who don't know the story, she was running sugar hill records with her husband, Joe sylvia was actually a child star singer herself. And, you know, they kind of had this like middling existence with their label. And then all of a sudden she's at this birthday party that she didn't even want to go to in Harlem and she sees Lovebug Starsky up on the microphone. A hip hop hippie to the hippie to the hip hip hop. You know, this is early, early seventies. She's never heard anything like it. All the kids, you know, hands in the air, like you just don't care. And the whole thing. she tries to get Lovebug to sign. There's some kind of dispute, like with his management, never happens. And so she just goes to the pizzeria in New Jersey, finds three kids, get him, gets them to talk real fast over this record is how she described it. and that's, you know, that's Rapper's Delight. That's the first hip hop song on Wax. That's the first hit. you know, that sort of spawns the whole genre. So, you could certainly argue, that, you know, she, borrowed or she hired, hired people who borrowed or whatever to do this, you know, like the idea that, that the first hip hop, track on wax was like, you know, originated in a pizza shop in New Jersey is really unfortunate cause it started at the Bronx, but like, you know, Sylvia came from Harlem. She, you know, she, she knew that world. Like, you know, she was part of the music business and, for better or worse, she took hip hop from being, you know, just basically like spoken word in person kind of thing to being, you know, national events. Would it have happened eventually? Yeah, I think so. But you know, who knows? I mean, it could have taken years longer and if it took years longer, you know, are we going to have the eighties with like run DMC and Def Jam and all that? Like, you know, I don't know. I mean, it, could have taken a lot longer to get off the ground if she hadn't done what she'd done. And, you know, I don't think we, I don't think we should really be dinging Sylvia Robinson for her Machiavellian tactics, given some of the other people on this list, you know, we're talking like Suge Knight and whoever else, you know, there's quite nefarious characters, you know, as we get higher up too in this list. So, you know, I don't think anything she did was. remotely as bad as, as like a lot of the dudes on this list. and, you know, so, you know, let's, I think we give her her due and yeah, I would definitely put her higher, but, you know, I think that's part of the deal when, when you have somebody who's that early on. You know, people are going to say, Oh, well, you know, the total gross is not quite as much as so and so or whatever the case may be. And she wasn't as famous as some of the artists. So, but you know, she's up there, I mean, ahead of some pretty big names, Drake, Eminem, what have you. So, I think she's getting some flowers here [00:50:00] Dan Runcie: The total gross knock is always one that makes me roll my eyes a bit because even if you take out the inflation aspect and the amount of money that's now in the industry, this is something that happens with pioneers in any type of industry. They are the ones that take the early hits to make it possible. She and her work is what made it possible for rappers to like, she and her workers have made it possible for the message and anything else that we then see after that. Yes. Sugar Hill. records did have its struggles, afterward, like many other labels. But what do you think about broader context of the eighties being a very tough time in general for black music? And there were only a certain number of decision makers in power that could make that happen. Yeah. You have to take that into account. And then additionally, she did stuff outside of even just this record label itself. As you mentioned, she was a recording artist herself. She also owned a nightclub. So there were other mogul type things that she had her hands. And so shout out to Sylvia, who knows where this would be without her. [00:51:00] Zack Greenburg: And probably worth caveating also that, you know, she did have some, Disputes over paying artists, as the years went on. So did like really a lot of people on this list is we could do like a whole separate, you know, like has some kind of dispute on how they pay artists. So, you know, that, that's probably worth noting too, but yeah, I mean, so does everybody else. And, you know, I think she deserves her flowers. [00:51:22] Dan Runcie: Number 14, Dame Dash, [00:51:25] Zack Greenburg: Another, another hot one coming in. I mean, I think a lot of people would disagree with this, but you know, some people would put them even higher. I mean, I think he might be the most polarizing name on this entire list. Like some people had on top five, you know, some people didn't list them at all. you know, I think it kind of comes in. We've had this conversation before. Would there be a Jay Z without a Damon Dash? you know, I mean, I think so, but it's that part of the, you know, we've talked about him in the context of startups and do you, you know, you need a different kind of founder for your like pre seed days than you do for your series B. you know, if you're like a mafia, family, you need like a wartime Don, you know, versus like a peacetime Don or whatever it's called. But like, you know, I think, Dame Dash is a wartime Don. He's a seed stage startup founder. and he does it fair as well. You know, when it comes to like the growth stage and the corporate boardrooms and stuff, but, you know, there's no denying his brilliance. you know, I think what he did, you know, certainly with rock aware, you know, expanding, the Roc-A-Fella empire beyond music. you know, maybe he realized that Jay was eventually going to leave and that they just, it wasn't going to be forever. And so he wanted to get his hands into, you know, as many different areas as he could, but, you know, there's like a lot of pro and a fair bit of con, but, you know, I think again, he's one who, you know, the pro outweighed the con, he didn't kill anybody, you know, so there's some people on here who did. yeah, the con is only like so much con in my opinion. [00:52:56] Dan Runcie: This conversation makes me think about, that backstage documentary that. Roc-A-Fella had put out after the hard knock life tour. And there's that infamous scene of Dave dash yelling and swearing at Kevin Lyles, who was at Def Jam at the time about the jackets and where what logo was supposed to be, or something other than that. And thinking about that in context now of like, you know, how we talked about Kevin Lyles and everything he was able to do from that run and still can continue to do. And with where Dame Dash is, is in his career, Dame Dash doing his thing. I think he very much lived through and practice and preach the ownership standards that worked for him, where he has Dame Dash Studios, Dame Dash this, and he's been able to. Create exactly what he wanted to. We heard him on that infamous 2015 breakfast club interview where he's yelling at DJ Envy and Charlemagne about, Oh, well, if your son wants a job, can you get him a job here at power 105 or whatever? No. Well, I can do him at where I'm at. And as comic as the delivery was, there is some aspect of mogul dumb. That is a bit of that King making aspect of, okay, can you create opportunities for others around you? What those opportunities look like definitely vary. And I think that is a factor. So I do highlight that is something that Dame is able to do. And Dave is also similar to he's similar to a polarizing basketball player in the sense that the media may look and be like, why do you all fuck with this guy? Like, what's going on? But if you ask the people that are actually in it, a lot of that would be like, oh, well, you got to look at Dame dash, Dame dash is the guy. And when I have. Interviewed. I'm sure you've interviewed and talked to many of young artists, too, or young label executives, too. A lot of them will reference Dave Dash. A lot of them will look at what he was able to do alongside Roc-A-Fella, almost in the same way that, you know, players will swear by Kyrie or swear by James Harden or some other type of athlete that may be polarizing in their own right. And the media is like, Oh, why do you all like this guy? And it's like, Oh, well, no, you don't understand. So there's something about. The people, and obviously I say that being self aware is us as people more so on the media side, as opposed to being in it themselves. But there's something about these young artists and moguls as well that have always looked up and respected what Dame has built. And even though it may not resonate, like, personally, I acknowledge that. [00:55:23] Zack Greenburg: I would say, if you're going to make a basketball reference, Maybe not personality, but like basketball style, I'd almost liken him to Carmelo Anthony, you know, like he's an isolationist. He's a scorer, like, you know, he may not be very good at distributing the basketball, but like, you know, you throw him the ball in the corner and he's going to find a way to get it in. And, You know, like a lot of people wouldn't think that he belongs in the Hall of Fame at all, you know, but some people would, be insistent on it. So, you know, yeah, I think that sort of like singular focus, you know, you could definitely give him credit for that, [00:55:55] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Number 13, we are Cohen. [00:55:58] Zack Greenburg: man, another like bulldozer of a human being, but, you know, certainly somebody who, you know, maybe he has also got the finger roll, you know, like he, he can have a light touch when needed. you know, I think just like in terms of longevity, we talk about longevity with some of the names on this list, you know, Leroy was there in the very beginning of hip hop, you know, managing rappers, and it gives the road manager run DMC, taking the leadership role, running Def Jam and Warner, starting 300. Now, you know, YouTube's head of music, you know, the number of careers that he's touched over the years. From, you know, whatever hip hop pioneers you want to mention. I mean, you know, talking about LL Cool J, Run D. M. C., Beastie Boys. you know, to like later on with, you know, Jay, and then, you know, more recently, like whose career doesn't he touch, at YouTube? you know, I think he's a hard one to argue with. I mean, you know, I think though that, I like this basketball analogy though. You're like, he might be more of a Scottie Pippen because he's always been like, you know, there's almost always somebody else, Who he's working with, who is like higher up on this list than he is, you know, and we can get to some of those names in a bit, but, I guess now that he's at YouTube, he really is running the show.  but he can score, he can make the assists. you know, get these rebounds, get the triple double. I think Lyor is a, definitely deserves a spot up here. [00:57:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah, the do it for what? 4 plus decades. Now, if we're looking back to us, well, almost 4 decades, if we're looking at it in total, but impressive each step of the way. And there is something admirable. I think about the no fucks given mentality and perspective of just how he's been able to do things. And I do think that a lot of hip hop executives over time have been criticized for not thinking about efficiency and things like that enough. And I do think that we, or was 1 of them who probably lead a bit more into that. And regardless of who it was, willing to call someone out about it. I think back to, there was this interview that he had done with Young Thug a couple years ago. And, this is back when Lyor was at 300 and Thug, they were talking about the process. And he says to Thug, he's like, why don't you spend more time on your music? You have these like little songs that you just like, leave like little orphans. Like, why don't you like actually grow and nurture them? And it's back and forth where Thug's trying to be like, Oh, he doesn't understand it. You know, you got to just drop frequently the audience. That's what they want to hear. So it was very much an interesting dichotomy of just seeing where things are of the streaming era, but I think that highlighted that even when thug was peak, like, everyone was like, oh, yeah, thug is the next 1 up. He was still like, hey, no, like, you need to do better. So there was something interesting about that. And that. Even I think his mission as well with YouTube, like I think before he got there with YouTube, YouTube was often seen as such the enemy of the music industry in some ways, the same way that any other type of distributor is. And he's took it upon his badge to be like, no, I don't only want to be a friend to YouTube. I want to be the number one. Source of revenue for the music industry. So really working to just change the narrative, both from a positioning perspective, but also everything there, I think has been a cool additional chapter in his career. Because I think a lot of the people that we have maybe named on this list that were big in the 80s or 90s, but are kind of on the list for legacy reasons like, we are still doing it. [00:59:09] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. all right. Who do we got next? I think, [00:59:12] Dan Runcie: 12, we got Jimmy Iovine. [00:59:15] Zack Greenburg: That's interesting. I thought he would be higher. I think we both had him higher but you know, maybe I think sometimes, yeah, again, he's another one where when you have like such a broad portfolio of work and some of it is not in hip hop, then, you know, people don't necessarily consider you for a list like this. So. you know, I mean, here's a guy who had experience with U2 and, you know, all these great rockers and, you know, he ended up at Apple. so I think maybe he got dinged a little bit for that, but you know, there's no doubting his impact, from Interscope to Beats, you know, certainly there's no Dre on the commercial side, without Jimmy. And, you know, I think his ability to see, you know, there's this, famous. He and Dre have been walking down the beach in Malibu or wherever. and Dre's like, you know, I've got this new deal. somebody wants me to make sneakers. And Jimmy's like, F sneakers. Let's make speakers. you know, that was the birth of, Beats, or at least that's how I was told, but you could kind of see him saying that, right. he always had that vision for not just creating. a new product, but an entirely new category. And that's what they did with beats. And I think that alone, you know, I mean, that's like, I think the single biggest hip hop business deal, 3 billion, selling to Apple. I think that should probably get him a little higher. you know, maybe not top five, but I think we both put them higher than 12. [01:00:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah, agreed. Yeah, nothing else to add there. I thought he would have been on the top 10, but yeah, it's always interesting to see how these things play out. Number 11, Jay Prince, Rap A Lot Records, another interesting one to see where he ended up on this list. [01:00:54] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, he's sort of a sleeper pick, like hip hop heads, would know Jay Prince, but I don't know, you know, And certainly like most of the people we've mentioned are more well known from the pop culture standpoint. But I guess if you look at our judges, it's very hip hop industry specific. So, you know, specifics of, you know, I think Jay Prince is like, he's sort of like, you know, you talk about the rapper's rapper, he's like the hip hop moguls, hip hop mogul. And I think, and again, it's reflected in the judges, like, you know, some people didn't have him on his list, but he got a ton of top 10 votes, you know, across the board. So, yeah, I think that, that propelled him is like, if you know, you know, you know, his significance to the genre. [01:01:33] Dan Runcie: And even the artists rising now, you always hear that there's some connection to J Prince, which gives you an idea of the tentacles that he has right? When Drake is like, Oh, I decided not to come back and push a tee after what he said, because J Prince said I shouldn't. And you're like, okay, J Prince really is in this. You hear about Meg the Stallion and just her coming up as a Houston rapper mentioning J Prince the way that she does. He's stayed in it. And for someone that hasn't touched a mic, he definitely is one of the highest people on this list that hasn't touched a mic. [01:02:06] Zack Greenburg: I think he is the second highest sort of, well, we can [01:02:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, we could get into that. Yeah. so now we're into the top 10, number 10, SNOP Snoop Dogg. [01:02:22] Zack Greenburg: I think this is a great place for Snoop. I mean, you know, he's certainly, You know, if you ask people like Snoop Dogg, artist or businessman, people would probably say artist first, but, he really does have a tremendous business sense. And, you know, in terms of like the raw, total of endorsement deals done, startup investments made, you know, like he is out there, with his brand. And, you know, I think more than just about anybody else on this list and, you know, not in stupid ways, like he's very thoughtful about it. You know, and I think this whole like Martha Stewart, you know, bromance, whatever you want to call it, has been like hilarious and wonderful for his brand, but you know, you see him endorsing everything like Skechers and you know, he's in, in all these spots. And, I think what he's doing Casa Verde, you know, that's just his vehicle to invest in cannabis is like very on point. He understands his brand. and you know, he understands ownership, but he also understands how to make money. And he's doing a little bit of both. So I think above all with Snoop, what is the most impressive is how he's transitioned from, you know, who he was at the beginning of his career to who he is now. I mean, this is a guy who was, you know. On trial for murder. Like, you know, like this is quite a ways to go from there to being piling around with Martha Stewart. you know, I think she ultimately was the one who did the time, but like, you know, you know, just to have like. That kind of 180 for your personal brand, speaks to his brilliance in marketing. and I think, you know, like he might be more emblematic than anybody in hip hop of how hip hop was able to transition from where it was in the 90s and the east coast, west coast thing to today and, tying up with corporate America. and you know, it's a pretty remarkable feat. So yeah, I think, he definitely deserves a spot in the top [01:04:13] Dan Runcie: The man literally went from being the reason why Time Warner wanted nothing to do with its Interscope investment and being on the cover of a Newsweek in this like borderline mugshot photo of being like, Oh, this is what's wrong with hip hop to now being the emblematic brand whisperer. And yeah. On the covers with someone who actually did serve jail time, Martha Stewart, incredible. Yeah. Incredible. Number 9, this one's interesting. So number 9 is Nas. He made it to the top 10 and I'm glad that Nas is on this list. Of course, legendary MC, very influential with everything he's done from an investing perspective and what he's been able to do as well with other types of partnerships, helping to revive the mass appeal brand as well. I don't know if I've necessarily seen as much of the king making or as much of the, oh, I was able to put X and Y other person on in that same type of way, but I do respect that a lot of people had him on here and they likely do, you know, see him as inspiration in that way. But yeah, what are your thoughts? [01:05:19] Zack Greenburg: I think with Nas, it all comes down to the startup investing and, you know, of anybody on this list, I think he is the most influential when it comes to hip hop and Silicon Valley and the relationship that he had with Ben Horowitz or it has, you know, basically they connected over a shared love of barbecue and hip hop. I think Steve Stapp put them together. You know, it turned him from somebody who would never be considered for a list like this as recently as, you know, probably 10, 15 years ago, probably even 10 years ago, we wouldn't have had him on this list, to being top 10. And, you know, Nas was always the guy who he was the rapper's rapper, you know, he cared about the music, not the money. And, you know, but I think, you know, thanks to Anthony Sala, who he worked with, you know, continues to work with, sort of a startup whisper for him. he was able to accumulate stakes in some of, you know, most influential startups out there. I mean, I think he was in early in Lyft, Coinbase, a whole bunch of others. So, you know, Nas, to me, like, you could probably argue at this point, Jay Z may have a bigger portfolio. Jay Z may have overtaken everybody as sort of like the primary Silicon Valley a force among hip hop's royalty, but, you know, Nas was the one who really kind of showed the way. and the amount that he's done in a relatively short period of time, I think, you know, it's super impressive. And, you know, when you talk about who did something different on this list, he did, that's something very different. so props to NOS for that. [01:06:43] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Number 8 here is another interesting 1 to talk about is Kanye West. Kanye West famously rose up a lot of these net worth and, Highest earner list because of the success he had in fashion specifically with Adidas and his partnership with his brand Yeezy and arguably having the next most successful brand next to Jordan in terms of a single person being able to whether it's an athlete or entertainer being able to have. A shoe and will look like a shoe franchise that was going to live on. Unfortunately, we've clearly seen that implode and the implosion a bit. Unfortunately, I do think is maybe part of the reason why someone like yay may not be even higher on this list is because being a mogul. Is something about, like, we've talked about before the ability to have the influence to be able to put the pieces in particular areas. And for someone like yay to then go and make anti Semitic remarks, condone hate speech, promote hate speech. And you see all that crumbling down. One, of course, you mentioned that there's many people on this list that have done disgraceful things. But of course, we're hiding that calling that out here. But two, you just see how much that impact and it really destroyed so much of what has been able to build that shows some weakness in the quote unquote mogul foundation aspect of things. And I know that he was able to create opportunities for others through good music. I think most famously, we look at Pusha T and everything Pusha T was able to do in his career after the, my beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy album, and then becoming president of good music, I think. He's able to do that. Some of the early co signs with Travis Scott and others, I think, you know, work to, Yeezy's advantage as well. I think we've still yet to see that infamous Donda org chart with all of the various things that Yeezy wants to build come to life. If he is able to build that at some point, then would happily rank him higher on a list like this. But that's where I'm at with Ye on the mogul list. [01:08:47] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think like with, you know, a lot of other names on this list, it's sort of like, what was your ceiling? and you've got a lot of points for that. But then you get points taken off for, you know, for, sort of bad things you did or, or maybe not the things you, bad things you did from a personal level. Cause a lot of people are still high up anyway, but at least from a business perspective, I mean. You know, yeah, he was, at one point the wealthiest hip hop artist in history. I think also the wealthiest musician of any genre, maybe the wealthiest entertainer, depending on how you count that. but he also destroyed, like overnight the largest fortune in, hip hop history, at least to that point, with what he was doing. And, you know, you can talk about mental illness and that's, you know, very real, situation for him, unfortunately. But like, at the end of the day, you know, there's no condoning, the kind of stuff that he was saying and promoting and, you know, really having an effect. And you could see in some of the statistics out there, you know, hate crimes, especially against Jews have been up, you know, over the past year or so. And there's a lot of other factors going into that, but like, you can't be contributing to that kind of thing. so, yeah, I think you know, if that hadn't happened, you know, I think he would have made it into the top five for sure. and it's worth noting that, you know, he got, like, probably like a half dozen top five votes anyway. A lot of people left him off, you know, I don't know, I was bouncing all over where I would put him, but, I think you have to kind of consider not just what he created, but what he tore down. And so, yeah, he should be on this list, you know, he created probably with maybe the exception of beats, the most valuable brand to come out of hip hop and Yeezy. But then he also tore it down. So, you know, that's what this list is about. you get to have these debates. [01:10:20] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Agreed. Number seven, someone I'm excited to talk about 50 cent . 50, I mean, where do you even start? I think there's a few things 1, of course, you could talk about the rap career and how he was able to use shock value to his advantage with songs like how to rob and how that continue to be a through line with this career, starting all the beef with the murdering camp and everyone else there. But I think that same mentality work to his advantage as a businessman to we have both talked to broken down the deal that he did with vitamin water and for hip hop, that was 1 of the 1st of its kind that we saw. That was really dope to see. He continued to do plenty of other business ventures, be involved with things, but I think what's kept him in the mix, especially the past decade or so is what he's been able to do on the multimedia side. He has been single handedly. In many ways, carrying one of the legacy streaming platforms out there with stars. I was listening to a podcast that talked about how power and all of the various power books and chapters are responsible for 25% of the demand on that platform. And that, of course, that number came through parody analytics, so it doesn't exactly reflect on viewership, but when you look at how he was able to just continue that in an era where I think it's hard to create shows like that, that last, we obviously saw shows like Empire come and go and others, but he's still at it and it's been impressive to see how he's continued to that. And especially with the type of people that acted in power, that's a bit of that. Yeah. Making aspect where you're creating opportunities for other artists, whether it's, you know, having Mary J Blige in there or having different folks like that. So, I do think as much as he still is the same 50 will still cloud will still do jokes. We saw him courtside, the NBA playoffs of the Sacramento playoff, or the Sacramento Kings game because his alcohol company has a partnership with the Sacramento Kings. And I believe he also has one with the Houston Rockets too. So it's good to see that even 16 years after one of the most influential exits in hip hop, 50 is still doing his thing. [01:12:25] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And I think, it also goes back to ownership like so many of these cases, right when he got that deal, you know, his first record deal, he always says he went out and he took, you know, his first million dollars and went and, you know, registered all the trademarks for G unit and all these different things that he was going to do with it. and you know, he built a brand that was bigger than just 50 cent, right? He built a lot of brands that are bigger than just 50 cent. And I think what he did with vitamin water, I know we talked about it in the context of Chris Lighty, that set the blueprint, you know, not just for hip hop, but, you know, for the entertainment business on the whole, I remember I was doing a cover story on Ashton Kutcher for Forbes, you know, five, 10 years ago about his startup, sort of investing career. And, you know, he's Ashton Kutcher is probably like the most, successful entertainer investing in startups in terms of like successes and breadth and depth and all that. And I asked him why he started and he said, you know, I saw 50 cents deal. I, you know, I saw the vitamin water thing come through and I had just done like a Kodak film thing and, you know, for cash. And I was like, man, what am I doing? I got to get in on these startups. So, you know, 50 really inspired Ashton Kutcher to go do the startup thing, which then I think led to the whole entertainment industry getting involved in the startup thing. and, you know, came back around to Nas and eventually Jay. So, I think that, you know, what he did all the way back in when it was like two, 2006, 2007, that kind of set the mark, for others to follow and was, you know, new and interesting. I mean, Nas did it differently, right? Nas was more about being an actual VC at 50 cents on one deal that he thought was pretty cool and he was into the equity side of it, but yeah, I think that's, you know, that is definitely a trailblazing maneuver. And even if he doesn't do anything else ever again, I think, you know. he's a rightful claim to the spot. [01:14:09] Dan Runcie: Agreed . Number 6 on the list is Master P. he's another 1 that has continued to live on from a legacy perspective in terms of the young record label executives, the young artists, who are they modeling themselves after? Who do they want to do? And so many of them reference that late 90s, no limit run the ownership and how Master P. As many other record label executives worth the time, which we'll get into, but how he was able to navigate things and just the feeling of branding marketing and all of the different areas that he's been able to have his hand into and multimedia in product sales. He gets his product app distribution and Walmart and other stores like that. So it's been interesting and I think good to see him in the mix with things. He's always one of those names that comes up with, oh, there's this big brand for sale, whether it's Reebok or this sports team or this multimedia thing. He's always been in the mix with those, areas as well. So it's good to see him get representation on the list too. [01:15:08] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think just in terms of taking, you know, what had been sort of a regional label, in making it national and, sort of getting the kind of deal that he got. I think that's at the bar for a lot of deals to come and, you know, and that, that counts for a ton and, you know, getting involved into all kinds of different things that, you know, you may not even know until you like really take a close look at it, diversifying your portfolio, you know, as a businessman. I mean, I think he's as good at, example of that as anybody. [01:15:37] Dan Runcie: Agreed now we're in the top 5. This is where things get interesting. this 1st, 1, got a big exhale before this 1, co founder of death jam himself. Russell Simmons, where do we start? [01:15:51] Zack Greenburg: Well, you know, I think it's instructive to look through. the different votes here. I mean, well, a lot of people left him out, but you know, a lot of people even emailed caveats to me, like, look, I hate to put him on here, you know, but his impact is undeniable. And he got a bunch of first place votes actually, but I think enough people left him off entirely that, you know, it averaged out to him being, and he was, it's pretty clear that he's in fifth on this list. It's not particularly close in either direction. but yeah, again, you talk about blueprints, right?  Creating Def Jam, like sort of the iconic hip hop record label. And, you know, before all these artists that came along starting their own labels, you know, took a cue from Russell. all the artists that saw him create Fat Farm took a cue in creating clothing lines. And, you know, as time went on and he started getting into all these other different parts of the entertainment world, you know, I think that was something that other artists thought as well, but it's hard to name an artist whose career he's not touched, you know, of the legends that have been around for a couple of decades, you know, especially some of the names that we're going to get to in a minute. So, you know, obviously, can't discount, everything he's done, on the negative side, you know, certainly we've all seen the headlines, but, you know, his impact on the business remains, so significant that a lot of these people, the other voters put them on top and, you know, it's hard to argue his business influence. [01:17:11] Dan Runcie: You can't tell the story of hip hop without including him. You also can't mention him in good practice without acknowledging everything, the good and the bad. One other thing I'll say on the good side was leaning into reality TV shows and things like that early with whether it was, you know, having his family involved with different things on TV, and things like that. I think we were able to see him continue to put himself on with their right. It's like, of course, obviously, as anyone knows, you know, his brothers in run DMC, see the whole family. And then you obviously have even wasn't it like Angela Simmons now, you know, is been able to build her own career as a business woman herself in large part. Thanks to the platform that Russell Simmons was able to build there. So, yeah, I'm glad that he was on the list. I'm also glad we're able to have a full conversation about it. Yeah. Number four, top four is this is where we get into the famous Mount Rushmore, everyone always asks the question. Number four is a combination, but it's for good reason. It's Birdman and Slim, the co founders and leaders of Cash Money Records. [01:18:17] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, we didn't really specify, whether or not you could put people together or not, but so many voters ranked them together. and they're really inextricable. I mean, they are of course, brothers and co founders of cash money. So, it only seemed appropriate to do that. we only did that in one other case, but, you know, but here it made sense, you know, Birdman and Slim, you know, fire and ice, I mean, thunder and lightning, you know, that that's kind of their MO in cash money and, you know, you and I have talked about their dynamic a lot over the years, but, you know, I think similar to master P and taking what had been a regional label in cash money and, you know, extracting this incredible distribution deal from universal getting this huge advance, you know, in the 90s getting, it was $30 million, you know, even in, those days, you know, with inflation would have been, you know, probably at least double that at this point. Plus the ability to own everything going forward and then just their continued ability to stay, you know, you would talk about ownership throughout this list, I mean, those guys have managed maintain control of their catalog and, you know, through some, let's say there have been some disputes as to whether or not they held onto too much of it without distributing it fairly to their artists. But, [01:19:30] Dan Runcie: generous way to put it. [01:19:32] Zack Greenburg: You know, yeah, yeah, we could say, but, I think just the endurance cash money, you know, from the early days and hot boys and little Wayne, you know, coming through to like Drake, Nikki, Wayne, and you know, even if they never put out another hit, they're going to have that catalog to sit back on throwing off like double digit millions every year. So, you know, it's interesting. I mean, I wonder what would have happened if they had sold their label at the peak of the catalog boom a couple of years ago when interest rates were so low. I mean, I think they could have gotten, I mean, I don't know, hundreds of millions of dollars for sure, maybe half a billion. I mean, when you look at some of the numbers being thrown around. Yeah, I don't know about these days, now that things have cooled off a little bit on that front, but there's no denying their influence on the music and the ownership of the music. And you know, they certainly diversified. I think didn't Birdman own like gas stations or oil rigs or something for a hot minute there, but you know, I think it comes down to like, what's a mogul, you know, like a music mogul, a hip hop mogul, you know, for them to have launched and continue to own one of the most successful labels of all time, you know, and to have given so many other people on this list, the platform to start what they did, you know, and then they were pretty clearly ahead of Russell, which is interesting to me. and I think that's probably an effect of some people leaving Russell off, but there's no denying what Birdman and Slim did for the genre. And so, there they are, although some artists might, not be so happy and, you know, understandably. [01:20:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think part of the reason why they may be ahead of Russell in that way is because there's that ownership piece that goes back to it, right? I think we talked about it when we talked about, whether it was Def Jam or one of the other pods that we did, where the fact that Def Jam isn't necessarily owned by its co founders in the same way, but Cash Money is I think made a big of a difference there. And I think With Birdman and slim as well, even if, let's say, there wasn't a whole 2nd chapter of the cash money story like, even if we didn't see the young money to then Drake and Nikki side of it, it's like those, even if you separated those would be 2 ownership stories. In themselves that would have had placement in this list of maybe high up. You clearly saw Master P on this list where a lot of the recognition for Master P was things that he did in that early phase that Cash Money was able to as well. And then you have this whole run from 2007 up until 2018 because that was the last Drake album that came out under Cash Money. So the two hall of fame careers in themselves, it's almost similar to how Tom Brady, it's like, even if you look at everything that he did, you know, the 1st, 3rd of his career, then like the 2nd, 3rd, and like the 3rd, like they're all hall of fame careers in their own, right? [01:22:14] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, and it's interesting too, when you look at sort of the totals of the votes, I mean, some of them, you know, there may be a couple of places in between artists, but there's only, you know, a few votes here, they're separating them. But the voters like really made it clear like there's a obvious top 10 and even within that, you know, the, top six are pretty clear. And then we're about to get into another really clear, the tippy top tier, the top three. So, you know, the voters made their voices known, in a unified sort of way. [01:22:41] Dan Runcie: Agreed. So, yeah, let's get into it. The top 3 was pretty clear. People are probably know the names are probably just wondering what order. So, number 3 is Puff, Did [01:22:50] Zack Greenburg: Can't argue with that. Although he might argue with it. I think, you know, between, Number two and three, it was actually extremely close in vote totals. And, you know, Puff is interesting case like he's on almost every list. but fascinating to me, nobody put him number one, like a lot of people put him number two, like four or five people, but a number two, nobody put him number one. but you know, we've talked about how so many times on this list and on the, you know, podcast, shouldn't be surprised to listeners. That he's up there, but you know, to run through the accomplishments, I mean, to start off, you know, as an intern at Uptown, get fired and, you know, start from scratch basically in your early twenties and to build bad boy. And then off of bad boy, you know, Sean, John and, Ciroc and all the other side brands he's built. I mean, he's a billionaire. I think one of only two current billionaires on this list, although there was a near billionaire and a previous billionaire. But, the longevity, you know, just, just like the sort of like single handedly not single handedly, but really like in some cases, it seemed like he was pulling hip hop up with him into the mainstream, throughout the late 90s and in a time when, you know, the sort of after the Bad Boy, death row feud. you know, we talked about Snoop Dogg and how he was able to get what he did. I mean, it's just as compelling. I think a story, what Puffy did at being so intimately involved in that and so quickly becoming, you know, in the late 90s, arguably the biggest star in the world, and then becoming this incredible, you know, executive first executive, you know, not so much of an artist, but really a businessman first and foremost, over the past, you know, a couple of decades.  It just speaks to him. I like to say Puff is sort of like, he is Richard Branson, if Richard Branson just like happened to rap a little bit, you know, he's a businessman through and through, who happens to have some, you know, artistic ability and you could argue, you know, I would say more on the production side than on the lyrical side, but like, there's no denying data as a mogul if you look him up, you know, yeah, he's gotta be on the Rushmore, Mount Rushmore of any, hip hop mogul list. [01:24:47] Dan Runcie: He has a track record. He has the businesses. The whole thing from the beginning, selling a lifestyle. He learned that as an intern, did it with music, did it in fashion, did it in spirits and he's continued to find ways. And like anyone has had businesses that have succeeded businesses that haven't, but that guy's never going to give up and it's really cool to see people like him and others on this list. Most of the people that made it this far on the list are at least 50 years old or higher. And I don't think that's a coincidence. There's something to be said for the longevity, but I also expect these people, if they're still alive to still be making moves in their seventies, the same way that you see granted hip hop itself is only 50 years old. So you just don't see as much of the longevity there yet, but the same way that. We still see Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett in their 90s still being active players. If these hip hop moguls live as long as they do, hopefully we'll be able to see that too. And I think he's one of them that whatever the circumstances are, we'll always have some hand in the mix. And that's something that's always admirable about Puff. Number two, Dr. I mean, where do you start? You could start with the co founding of Death Row. He clearly learned a lot of the good things that came from Death Row because he was able to then start Aftermath and then create the platform to find Eminem, to then find 50 Cent, two of the most commercially successful artists that we've ever seen in hip hop. And then all that's before Beats by Dre, as we've discussed. On separate conversations, and even in this 1, the most successful hip hop or the largest hip hop business, deal that we've seen and everything that he's just continued to do throughout. I feel is so special. This is a mogul related, but it was so special just to see the Super Bowl performance that it sounds like he had a big hand and just making sure everything was able to work the way that it did. And he got help in many ways with some of that. We're going to get into at the top of the list, but it was really cool to just see everything. And in many ways, it felt like a culmination of everything dre has built in his career. [01:26:55] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think with Dre, it's always quality, not quantity, right? Whether it's bringing up artists, you know, that he's not going to co sign too many of them. But when he does, it's going to be Kendrick or 50 or Eminem. you know, he's not going to create too many products, but when he does, it's going to be beats, right? and you know, he's not going to perform that much, but when he does, it'll be like the halftime show, it'll be the Tupac hologram situation. you know, he is like the mad scientist sort of ethos going on that he sometimes alludes to. you know, he just goes and works and works and works and works and works and gets it perfect and then puts it out in the world and it might take decades. I mean, how many albums, three studio albums, really like three solo albums in his entire career. So like that's Dre. And I think it's interesting, you know, Diddy, is more trial and error. I think, he's out there, like he's willing to let the world see him fail, you know, and see him succeed. And I think Diddy certainly has more successes than Dre, but he has more failures, at least publicly. And, you know, just the idea, I mean, I guess it kind of comes down to beats versus Ciroc. I mean, beats, being, I think more influential at the end of the day in, in creating a category, you know, than just a product. I think Ciroc, it wasn't a category. He did something different with spirits. He kind of like turned vodka into champagne. It's not even really vodka, which is a whole other story, but, whatever it is, he turned it into champagne. And like this could be the art of celebration and all of that, you know, it'll be interesting to see what did he does now, you know, given the state of affairs of Ciroc, but anyway, I mean, back to Dre, you know, again, just like the breadth, the longevity from where he was to where he is, you know, and I think also, looking at Nas, right? Nas did most of what he did in the past 10 years, Dre, you know, from the beginning of Beats about 15 years ago to where he is today. If you take that out, like, yeah, like you said, he's probably still on here, but probably down around. So it's Beats or Pharrell or something like that. just to be able to have vaulted from there number two in 15 years.  And you know, the impact that Beats has even to this day, I think. Yeah, you know, so it's very close. Diddy and Dre. I mean, I don't know, how did you rank? I think I had, Diddy as number two and Dre at three, but that's, you know, I don't know. I was really agonizing over that one. [01:29:06] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I did it too. I had Dre at 6. So, yeah, it was, pretty close there, but yeah, agree with everything you said. And with that, we got to get into the number 1. The business man, not the business man. And you wrote a book about him actually too. If you count three Kings, number one, no surprise Jay Z. [01:29:25] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, that's right. Jay-Z was the clear winner here, know, no surprises. he got the most first place votes out of anybody. He got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, you know, like almost half of the people here put him number one and then there's like a ton of two and three votes. So, you know, yeah, I mean. you could certainly argue, that Puff and Dre, you know, their biggest successes were bigger than Jay Z's biggest success. So rockin and beats, would probably be bigger than any single, deal that Jay Z put together, but just like. The amount of different deals, you know, from the early days and Roc-A-Fella records and rock aware to, you know, to transitioning into being this sort of like mass market power player, the light nation deal, you know, launching do say, and I'm on to Brynjolf and all of that, you know, to have o wnership and to get paid and to continue to be, you know, musically relevant at the same time throughout it all. I mean, yeah, I think, that it's, pretty clear why Jay Z is number one. And, you know, I don't think anybody would really argue with that except for maybe Diddy. [01:30:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, he does the most. I think that you've seen him. You've seen him succeed with ownership. You've seen him succeed with partnerships at the highest levels. We've seen him navigate difficult business relationships. We've seen him make mistakes as well with things that he may be oversaw, but was able to still think through and come out somewhat ahead. Speaking specifically about title and some of the things there, even in the failures, you could still see the through line about why he thought this was the best way to go about things. I think that. Not a surprise. And I think he definitely deserves to be at the top of the list for sure. A hundred percent. [01:31:12] Zack Greenburg: And, you know, as far as looking at everybody's career and who you can kind of learn the most from everybody on here, you can learn something from and, you can learn from their successes, but I think it's also worth looking at what didn't work and how did they respond? You know, and, Jay Z likes to say a loss and a loss, it's a lesson. And, you know, he's out there taking chances and, it doesn't always work. And I think earlier in his career, he only wanted to show you the parts that did work, and now he's kind of willing to, you know, show you the whole package. But, you know, itt certainly helps, when you're married to the biggest star in the world, arguably. but look, I think both of them have been very smart about that relationship and how they leverage it to get into things like they have this big Tiffany's campaign, you know, certainly their real estate portfolio has improved together with, you know, the addition of this, like, I think they just got a 200 million house in Malibu and stuff like that. So, I think with Jay, the way he handles every relationship, every release, it all builds toward the next thing. And, yeah, he's a chess player. He's thinking 10 steps ahead and, you know, it, kind of makes you wonder like, what is his next big step? I know he's, gotten a lot of big paychecks recently selling half of, Armand de Brignac and doing a joint venture there with LVMH, he's got a, huge check, I think around 700 million, for his stake in D'Ussé Cognac. So I'm particularly interested in, you know, what it is that he's kind of building up his war chest, to get next. And, I've heard rumors that it might be in, soccer, or in American football. so we'll see. I mean, it could be any one of those things, but you know, don't be surprised when we check in 50 years, if he's like, you know, Jeff Bezos territory, maybe sooner. [01:32:47] Dan Runcie: and again, the fact that he's been able to help the people around him and make them successful too. He had that line that, song boss with Beyonce on that, album they put out together where he's like, here, we say you're broke if everybody, or here, you're not successful. We say everybody's broke except for you. I know I butchered the line. I forget exactly what it is, but it's something like that. It's It's very similar to the pound cake line that he had had as well. So, at the end of the day, that speaks to his ability to do that. so yeah, this was really fun and it was really interesting to go through the list. And now that we're done with at least that part of the list, now, were there any snubs on your end? I know we talked about a lot of the placement of particular people, but was there anyone, ah, that wasn't on the list that we didn't talk about at all today, that you were like, man, like wish that person had gotten in? [01:33:35] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I thought it was kind of surprising that DJ Khaled wasn't on here. I voted for him. I ranked him fairly highly, you know, I don't see why he would be off, but somebody like TI or even Rick Ross would be on, you know, having this hand in a lot of different things. I think also on a social media perspective, he's been really front of the pack. So, yeah, I would put Khaled up there. I think RZA belongs up here too. some of the things he's done. You know, just like being the mastermind of the Wu Tang Clan period is, you know, kind of mogul, mogul move to kind of like come up with that idea. And, you know, unite all these guys from Staten Island under the banner of Kung Fu and hip hop. It's like, what? They talk about something new and different, you know, and his hand in. And, you know, the secret album, once upon a time in Shaolin and, you know, all the things that that led to, and, you know, hip hop is already collectibles. It's just kind of like debates in the industry. so I think, RZA deserves a look. but, would be the two that kind of stick out to me as, you know, I think probably deserve a spot on here, but, but not quite enough people shared my views here. [01:34:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's a good one. I think to discuss someone that hasn't necessarily came in, I'll talk about 2 people. They're more recent people in the game, but I do think that a lot of people have been inspired by what they've done. 1 is Ghazi and what he's been able to do at empire specifically from a record label perspective. But, you know, we started that at a point where a lot of people didn't even think it was viable to have a business where you were more than a just typical distributor, but you were still offering artists to at least maintain whether it's their masters or have just flexible record contracts where it's like, okay, let's partner on this project. Let's partner on this and we see how fragmented music is now. And I think they were clearly ahead in some ways with that. And I think that works to their advantage too. And similarly, J Cole was someone who got on this list, but I think I'd actually give a shout out to his business partner. And CEO of DreamVille, Eib Hamad and what they've been able to do. They're really trying to bring a platform. And I think in many ways, one of the things that DreamVille is, and other labels have navigated, how do you work to build a platform beyond the breakout star that you have? So that was another name that, that came to mind. [01:35:50] Zack Greenburg: for sure. no, those, all make sense to me as well. [01:35:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and then on this note, I think it was interesting because now that we're reflecting on the list, there's a few trends that I wanted to call out to get your thought on 1 was the placement of producers. And this is a 2 part question because 1, I do think that producers, especially the super producers in hip hop did quite well. If we're looking at this list, just to kind of name through the names. Dr. Dre number 2. Kanye West number 8. Where's Swiss Beats here? We have Pharrell, of course, at 22 and we have Swiss Beats at 27 and I'm probably forgetting a couple of people there. Do you think there's something specific about producers as a job? That makes them either more likely, or that has or any commonality with those folks and why that may line up with their placement on a list like this. [01:36:45] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think a lot of the people who are producers are, you know, some of the time are there because, you know, they didn't quite take off as lyricists the same way. Although some people disagree with this, look at Dre, okay, fine. But like Dre was always a better producer than he was a lyricist. Puff was always a better producer than he was a lyricist. Swizz was always a better producer than he was a lyricist. I mean. You know, you could, hot take, but like, you could argue that with Kanye too, I mean, that's less of a slight to Kanye's lyricism and more of like, just a praise for his production. But think that, you know, when let's say, being a lyricist, isn't your calling card, whether it's production or something else, you have to make yourself viable in other ways. And I think that, especially as a producer, you're often involved, you know, more in the business side and, you know, what are the splits going to look like, who's got the publishing, all of that, you kind of necessarily end up. More in local territory, whereas it's easier maybe to just be a recording artist and to take checks from your label. it's sort of like, you know, kind of comes to the territory more when you're involved in the production side of things. [01:37:47] Dan Runcie: I think that last piece is key because you are more cognizant of the splits. You are a bit of the maestro of making sure everything works out the same way that it does to be able to do that there, which maybe speaks to some of the reason why, you know, you mentioned Cal it as someone that. Probably would have expected to see a little bit higher, although his work as a producer is a little bit different than some of the folks that we mentioned here, but people that are on the younger side that I do think have a lot in common with the folks you mentioned here to be interested to see where will someone like Zaytoven, Metro Boomin, Mike Wilmated, some of the super producers or close to it of the streaming era that we've seen, will we see them be able to make Those moves in the future of the people that I mentioned, I think Metro Boomin is probably the closest there. Of course, he recently sold his catalog. I think that he's someone that seems to move a little bit different. He's releasing his own albums that do have his own beat production there in a way where Mike Will and Zaytoven strike me a little bit more as being purely entrusted in the musical aspect of things. [01:38:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, and I think if we're talking about, you know, younger individuals, who, you know, you might see on this list in 10 years, or maybe even you could have seen them now, but, I think, you know, Travis Scott, and Tyler, the creator are two names that I would point to, Travis Scott, I think probably got dinged for, you know, what happened, you know, at, at his festival. And, you know, that's like kind of a big, you know, impediment for people to throw on the list. But, you know, those kinds of concerns didn't. It stopped them from listing other folks who had some pretty serious, you know, kind of like moral, asterisks around, around their names. So I think what Travis has done with Cactus Jack, You know, he was really on the, sort of on the Kanye path from a commercial perspective and, you know, let's see how it goes with this new utopia rollout. But yeah, I think people have kind of a short memory and are willing to move on. And, you know, he could be back in the conversation again soon. And I think Tyler, the creator too. I mean, I think he's another one, you know, whether it's music festivals or, clothing, you know, he's definitely got a hand in. a bunch of really interesting different businesses and, you know, maybe part of it, maybe he ends up more like in the Pharrell kind of position where it's not necessarily quite as mainstream, but it's, widely respected and, you know, lucrative and popular. So I could see the two of them moving up here in years to come. [01:40:13] Dan Runcie: And Tyler too is unique because he spoke to an audience of fans and people that weren't being spoken to in that same type of way, right? Everyone else is trying to speak to the aspirational cool person. Tyler said himself, he was reaching the outcasts. He was reaching the people that would go on late night runs to Taco Bell and stuff like that. And that was an audience that hip hop mainstream hip hop was reaching. So I think that speaks a lot to his success there. So, final question here, which I think is a good one and you posted right before we started recording this mogul list is very representative in a lot of ways of who the greatest artists are that happened to be successful in business. And the question was up to interpretation in many ways. But if you were picking a team or a few people, whether it's people we've mentioned or people we haven't mentioned to run your mogul empire. Who would make your list? Let's say if there's 3 to 4 names that come to mind of who would make your list, who would it be? [01:41:13] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think the boring answer is Jay Z, and that's probably, you know, most people's answer because that's why, you know, he got so many first place votes, but, you know, looking through the top 20, I mean, there are a lot of people who would not want running my mogul empire, but, you know, if I had to pick three, let's say out of the top 20, or maybe even the whole list, I think, I'd probably go like Jay, Lyor, and Sylvia Robinson, because they all just get shit done one way or the other. They're all individually brilliant, creative, Machiavellian, you know, like, they all kind of like pushed the line on a lot of things, but they didn't cross it fully, in my opinion, at least compared to some of the other people, on the list, you know, at least in a, like, something is illegal kind of way, you know, or I guess anywhere you look there's always these debates, but I think that all three exhibit a certain level of, you know, in different degrees, like you need something done. They're going to get it done. You're not worried that they're going to let their ego get in the way, you know, they could be the star or it could be the Jordan or the Pippin. and they have the talent to get it done, you know, no matter what it is that you need done. So I probably go with those three as my top. What about you? [01:42:23] Dan Runcie: I feel like we have a similar minded list. So I would have Sylvia Robinson as the board chair. I want someone that can control those stakeholders, make sure that we're good and also just keep a good eye and keep the company in check as well. I would want Jay to be president of the company because I think as president, it's good to have someone that. Can be a bit of the public salesperson can get the right amount of support for buy in can be included in particular sales pitches for an actual CEO. I'll take Lyor again. I think the shrewdness, the no fucks given in a lot of ways. But still having a calling card to be able to get people aligned with is important. And I'll take, Steve Stout is my CMO and I'll have Jay Prince as a special advisor to help address any of the issues or anything like that. that's the dream team. [01:43:11] Zack Greenburg: I like that. I like that one. Yeah. [01:43:14] Dan Runcie: All right. Well, Zack, anything else, that we should mention before we close things out on the hip hops, 50 greatest mogul list. [01:43:22] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, you know, I think it's interesting to reflect in the context of hip hop's 50th anniversary. And, you know, when you look at sort of some of the pioneers, who started it all, you know, really there aren't any other than Sylvia who were there at the very beginning. And even then you could argue, you know, she came kind of five years late. So, you know, I hope that over the, you know, over the rest of the year, some of these folks do start to get their flowers in the mainstream in a way that they haven't before. You know, whether it's Herc or Flash or, you know, some of the other people, Kaz, who are sort of around Grand Wizard Theodore, you know, some people like that who haven't gotten maybe quite their due. So, you know, I would look for that, through the year. And that's kind of a hope of mine. And, you know, I mean, yeah, none of them really got to be. Let's say, they didn't get to partake in the spoils in the way that some of the people who came in a later did. So that, that would be my one, final thought as we head into this rest of the summer of celebration of the 50th anniversary. [01:44:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I'm excited. I think it was great to be able to use as an opportunity to reflect, to be able to highlight and think more broadly about it. There's been so many different types of 50, this 50, that list, and I'm sure we'll see more of them as well. I think that this 1 is a bit unique because of all the factors that we brought into and how varied the list was and how we brought more people into this process, as opposed to just having, of course, there's a form of this. That was just you and I talking it out and making sure that where we thought things made sense, but it was really good to be able to include some of the pioneers and some of the leaders themselves in this. So with that salute to hip hop and everything that is created, and obviously you and I being able to have work in this industry as well. So shout out, know, it's a privilege and honor to be able to contribute and offer something like this. [01:45:07] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Privilege and honor indeed. So, yeah, it's a lot of fun and good to get, you know, good to be able to look back a little bit. [01:45:13] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. [01:45:15] Zack Greenburg: All right, Dan, have a good one. [01:45:16] Dan Runcie: You too. [01:45:17] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast. Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Tue, 08 Aug 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Hip-Hop's 50 Greatest Moguls full Dan Runcie August 11, 2023 is the 50th anniversary of hip-hop. What started out mostly as a spoken word artform has become a worldwide juggernaut. Thanks to the moguls who pushed the genre forward, hip-hop went from 0 to 100. In this episode, we rank the 50 greatest moguls in hip-hop’s history. We reached out to industry experts — from artists to execs to media personalities — to help us compile the list. Friend of the pod, Zack O’Malley Greenburg, joins me to count them down from No. 50 to No. 1 0:39 How do we define “mogul” 7:06 Honorable mentions 09:10 The “Don’t overlook their influence” group (ranks 50-41) 16:19 The “Playing chess not checkers” group (ranks 40-31) 23:38 The “Our impact runs deep” group (ranks 30-21) 33:47 No. 20 35:37 No. 19 37:56 No. 18 41:32 No. 17 44:27 No. 16 47:21 No. 15 51:22 No. 14  55:55 No. 13 59:09 No. 12 1:00:46 No. 11 1:02:16 No. 10 1:04:39 No. 9 1:06:44 No. 8 1:10:20 No. 7 1:14:06 No. 6 1:15:37 No. 5 1:17:11 No. 4 1:20:53 No. 3 1:29:06 No. 2 1:30:34 No. 1 1:33:22 Who got snubbed? 1:35:42 What trends stick out from the list? 1:41:21 Who would you pick to run your empire? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Zack Greenburg: ownership. Was just such an important thing for Nipsey. Such an important thing for Berner. And, you know, interviewing the two of them, I would say, their mindset around ownership was the closest I've ever seen to Jay Z. [00:00:13] Dan Runcie Intro Audio: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:39] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: This episode is a celebration to hip hop's 50th anniversary. This is a countdown on the 50 greatest moguls ever in hip hop. I'm joined by Zack O'Malley Greenburg, friend of the pod, and we both reached out to. A bunch of label heads, executives, people in hip hop that would know best. And we put it together in an aggregate list. And we're here to break down that list today. We talk about what does it mean to be a mogul? What are some of the considerations we made when we were looking into this list ourselves, how the results looked, what surprised us? What were the snubs? What were the misses? And what can we learn from this overall? And if Zack and I were putting together our dream teams, what would that look like? This is a lot of fun. Really happy with how it turned out. So let's dive in. [00:01:25] Dan Runcie: All right, hip hop's 50th anniversary is right around the corner and we decided to celebrate it in the only way that we know best countdown hip hop's greatest moguls and I'm joined by Zack O'malley Greenburg, who reached out to me about this. I was really excited about it and we spent some time over the past couple of weeks, reaching out to people we know, making sure that we have the best insights looking through and making sure that we had all of the. Breakdowns to share. So Zack, I'm ready for this. How are you feeling? [00:01:55] Zack Greenburg: I am stoked. Yeah, I mean, you know, 50th anniversary of hip hop. We reached out to 50 different judges. amongst, you know, the sort of, the most respected folks from, you know, label heads to artists to entrepreneurs, you know, I think we've got half of them, roughly half of them replied since in their votes, we're going to keep their individual votes anonymous, but, you know, Dan could tell you about some of the judges. Yeah, and it was just really fun to kind of mix it up, you know, I think the thing about this list, a lot of these characters are just kind of an apples to oranges comparison as you'll see once we dive into it, but that's the beauty of it, right? I mean, how do you, you know, compare like a pioneering executive to like a modern day artist mogul? And we really kind of left it in the hands of the judges. And we just said, basically the only guidance was, this is a business focused list, but you know, you can rank artists, executives, people who are both. It just, whatever your definition of mogul is, that's how, you know, that's how you should rank them. And people submitted lists and obviously the higher they rank somebody, the more points we gave them and, you know, the lower they got, but, you know, so there's some people on there who are like accumulators. They ended up on everybody's list, but not so high, but, you know, as a result, they ended up on the top 50. And then there are some who were just like, not ranked at all by most people, but had a couple of really high ranks so that they made the list. So I think it's a pretty cool mix. [00:03:10] Dan Runcie: Right? It's kind of like how we look at artists. There's some artists that have just been consistent, steady through and through each year. You'll always get some reliable output from them, but then there are other artists too. They were the best for a certain amount of time. Maybe they cooled off for a bit. Maybe they came back and that's kind of the way music is too. One of the things that. I was asked whenever I was reaching out to people about this was the same thing that you posed earlier. People wanted to know, how are we defining mogul and we left it up to their interpretation. It is a term that means different things to different people, but maybe for the sake of this conversation, let's kick it off here. Zack, how do you define mogul? And how did you define it when creating your list? [00:03:51] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, to me a hip hop mogul, more general is just, you know, somebody who not only is a business person, but has some degree of ownership, in whatever it is that they're doing. that's not the only definition of it for me, but like, you know, when I was putting together my rankings, I thought, you know, who are the owners? the same time, you know, people who are executives who are in a decision making place. you know, that counts for something. And I think also, you know, if you're an artist, and you simply have some control over your own work, you maintain your copyrights, whatever, like that counts as being a mogul.  So, you know, specifically when it comes to hip hop, you know, I'd say people who are, you know, definitely getting in charge of your own work, but also creating new lines of business, you know, influencing the culture. but you know, a way that they've got some skin in the game from a business perspective, you know, that, kind of thing. That's kind of how I looked at it. but you could see from the votes that, you know, everybody had a slightly different definition too. [00:04:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, there was definitely a lot of correlation with the artists who tend to be the ones that are the wealthiest. They end up at the highest rankings in on some of those lists, too, but it wasn't exactly correlated because there's a difference. And these are some of the things I kept in mind, too, with the mogul definition, thinking specifically about influence and impact, were you having, or did you create opportunities for others around you? Were you able to be a bit of a kingmaker or queenmaker in your respective right? Was there a impact in terms of other generations that either looked and modeled how they're doing what they're doing and looking at you as some form of inspiration with that? So there's the indirect impact and influence, but also the, Indirect piece of it too. So there's the money piece as well, but then what do you do with that money? And then that's how I had went about it. And similarly, everyone had their own unique spin to it. [00:05:42] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And, you know, and I think the definition changed over time, of what a mogul really is, but when I was putting my rankings together, I think the idea of starting something new, you know, that's also paramount, amongst all the criteria as well. [00:05:55] Dan Runcie: Right? So, of course, Zack and I had our list, but we reached out to a number of people and several other label heads, executives, and people that are in the game. So thank you all to your contributions. We couldn't have done this without you. And if anything, it helped add a variety beyond just you and I, getting and putting our list out there. It added a more full scope and like anything. Oh, this is how you look at it. Interesting and being able to pull unique insights there. [00:06:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. you know, one thing I think we probably ought to point out, on the list, you know, the list is, heavily male. but it's about only 20% women on the list. you know, we did everything we could obviously to make it more equitable, but, you know, the votes are the votes. And, you know, I think there is a bit of a reflection of sort of the state of affairs over the past half century, you know, unfortunately, like many parts of music business, hip hop has been, you know, heavily overindexing for males. So, you know, here's hoping that when 50 years to do a hundred years of hip hop, you know, we'll have even things out a bit or completely, let's say maybe even, you know, made up for lost time, but I think some of the spots on the list, you know, the rankings do kind of reflect an industry reality that we've seen, unfortunately for 50 years. [00:07:06] Dan Runcie: Right? And hopefully this gets better. We do feel and you'll see when we talk about some of the people here, glad about some of the names that got mentioned. Of course, there's always room to be able to have more and hopefully for hip hop's 100th anniversary. If when and people are breaking that down, there's hopefully even more representation there. So, with that, I think it's probably good for us to get started right before the list, but talk about some of the honorable mentions. So, there were people that didn't quite make the cut of 50, but we still wanted to highlight them and the work that they. Did here. So a few of those names here to give a shout out to. So we have Cindy Campbell, Jermaine Dupree, Audrey Harrell, Jay Cole, Damon John. What comes or what do you think about when you hear those names? [00:07:55] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, you know, I mean, Cindy Campbell, I think in many ways you could look at her as the first promoter in hip hop history, right? I mean, you know, we're talking about 50 years of hip hop. That's 50 years from that first party that. She and DJ Kool Herc through, you know, in the rec room on Cedric Avenue. And, I think the idea was that they were going to raise a little bit of cash so she could go get herself a new back to school wardrobe. Now, if that's not, you know, entrepreneurship and hip hop, you know, from the very beginning, I don't know what it is. And so I think Cindy deserves a ton of credit, for being there at the very beginning, you know, but I think on the honorable mentions to a lot of the folks that are on here, you know, or maybe like a little bit, you know, not exactly falling on the same radar, you know, for the list. So like, you know, Damon John, obviously he did with, you know, creating FUBU and, you know, everything he's done as an entrepreneur, it's incredible, but it, I think it's sort of like more of a national brand that is, you know, apart from hip hop and so is his personality, right? Like you see him on shark tank or, you know, whatever, like he sort of moved past, I wouldn't necessarily categorize him, as just hip hop, although he's had a tremendous impact on hip hop. So I think probably that's why, he wasn't on more lists. It's not to sort of ding him his impact, which is considerable. [00:09:10] Dan Runcie: Right, and I do think that of course, music is one element of hip hop. You do have fashion, you do have others. So music definitely got weighted heavily in this list, but Dave and John and his influence in fashion, and there's other people in fashion and we'll get into them in this list too, but we can't overlook everything he did there and some of the more unique and clever marketing tactics that came from food booth that other people did who will mention in this list as well. 1 person that I do want to highlight here from that list 2 people. So, Jermaine Dupri want to give him a shout out as well. Just everything he was able to do with. So, so Def records. He was part of that movement in the 90s, where you saw LaFace and then all these other groups in the South be able to come up, do their own. There was a so so deaf sound, a so so Def vibe and his ability to do it both in rap, but also have a bit of the soul there. Some of the epic production that he's been involved with, even outside of hip hop, thinking about albums like Mariah Carey's Emancipation of Mimi and others, even though he didn't always do everything in hip hop. I think that some of his influence can't go overstated there. And then the second person who's similar in that regard, I would say is Andre Harrell. We talked about him in past episodes, especially the bad boy one, but everything that he did from Uptown Records and then moving on to Motown Records and gave in many ways helped give Puff the blueprint for what he was able to do years later. [00:10:37] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think Andre had a lot of successes, also had a lot of failures, not necessarily, you know, through his own doing, the time, but definitely somebody who deserves, you know, a hat tip at the very least. And, you know, I'm sure Puff would agree about that too. [00:10:52] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Agreed. All right. We ready ready to get into it. [00:10:57] Zack Greenburg: Let's do it. [00:10:58] Dan Runcie: All right. So in the initial group here, which we're calling the don't overlook their influence group. This is people who are ranked 50 through 41. so in order we have Ethiopia have to Marion at 50. She was the former CEO of Motown. We have Top Dog, co founder and CEO of Top Dog Entertainment. We have Mona Scott Young from her work at Violators and more recently Love Hip Hop. And what she also has done with Hip Hop Homicides and some other multimedia projects. We have T.I. with everything he's done with Grand Hustle and Multimedia. We have Eazy E with Priority Records. Many ways pioneering so much of the stuff we saw. We have Todd Moskowitz, L. A. Reed, Craig Kalman, former CEO from Atlantic. We have Sylvia Roan and then tied for 40. We have Desiree Perez and Steve Stout. What are your thoughts on that group list? [00:11:55] Zack Greenburg: Oh, man, I don't know. Maybe we should just pick out a few here and there that we thought were particularly interesting. I mean, you know, I think Ethiopia is a good example of somebody who would be higher up if she were identified, you know, solely as a, you know, as a hip hop mogul, but she's had kind of like a pretty wide reach, you know, especially in R and B, and pop. I mean, some of the stuff she's done with Erykah Badu, NeYo, Stevie Wonder, you know, like over the years, you know, wouldn't be classified as hip hop, but it's worth it nonetheless. just think that, you know, being kind of like in between, in between genres, you know, resulted in her being down a little bit further on the list. But, you know, somebody who had a tremendous impact. you know, I would also, I would highlight TI here, you know, the self proclaimed King of the South, but, you know, in terms of, I remember the years when, you know, we were putting together the Forbes list and, you know, kind of looking at, you know, kind of regionally who is most important to me. Yeah, he was sort of like. The Jay Z of the South. And he was really, especially when he was having that moment, you know, getting a lot of songs on, you know, national radio and, kind of being in the public eye, I mean, had a tremendous business focus, you know, he was always interested in sort of like, what's the next thing that I can create? and you know, that kind of entrepreneurial energy, you know, I think, especially within the context of the South, like taking the blueprint, from guys like Jay Z, you know, I think he certainly deserves a mention. I kind of thought he'd end up higher here, but I guess he's been, not as, especially in the music front lately. and then I would definitely highlight, Desiree, you know, she's somebody who's been behind the scenes for a really long time, with Jay Z and rock nation, but like. she runs rock nation. And although Jay Z obviously has the final say in things, you know, a lot of things that you see, come out of that camp are, you know, her doing and have her fingerprints all over them. And I know some of y'all might have seen the Book of Hove exhibit at the Brooklyn Museum or the Brooklyn Public Library that was a Desiree Perez production and, you know, she said that it was like her emptying her 80, 000 square foot storage unit into the library, but, you know, but to have, you know, that kind of, impact at a place like Roc Nation and to help, you know, Jay Z do what he's done, you know, I think those are all worthy, of notation and, you know, I think she deserves her spot there for sure. [00:14:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah, Desiree is someone that has been working with Jay Z for a while now, and I feel like she deserved a shout out on Jay's verse in Pound Cake, the Drake song. You know where he's like, Dave made millions, Lyor made millions. I feel like Desiree should have gotten a shout out there too, but yeah. I'm glad that she got mentioned here. Two other names I'll run through quickly. Steve Stout, someone who I thought would have ended up higher, and I know that, you know, it was interesting to see how the results played out, but I do think that one of the best marketers that we've seen come through hip hop. He was ahead of the curve in a number of ways, dating back to the 90s with seeing the men in black sunglasses and everything that he's done there from his time working with Nas, everything that they've done, whether it was the firm or, him being a record executive himself and then showing as well, how he's able to do it in advertising and bringing a lot of these companies and brands that didn't necessarily align or think about being related with, you know, hip hop culture and those elements to be able to do it. You look at a company like State Farm and how we now look at what that company has done. And a lot of that is through his work and obviously with what he's done at United Masters. So shout out there and I also do want to give a shout out to Mona Scott Young mentioned her earlier, but she was a right hand to someone who will mention on the list as well coming up soon with everything she did in Violator, this is back when, you know, Q Tip and Busta Rhymes and that whole crew were doing their thing. And then later, I know people have a lot of polarizing opinions about love and hip hop, but if you look at the career opportunities that were created for people that have came through, and the longevity that she's granted, a lot of people that the record industry forgot about that she was able to continue to give opportunities for think about the trick daddies, Trina's and folks like that. I know people hate to see them arguing on camera, but would we have Cardi B where she is today? If it weren't for the platform of love and hip hop, and she's continued to do things with other vocals on the list that we'll get into. So I do want to give a shout out to her [00:16:08] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, definitely a worthy shout out. And we could probably go on and on about even just like the tent in this bracket here, but I suppose we ought to, we ought to move on to the next room before, before we run [00:16:19] Dan Runcie: indeed. Yep. So the next group is playing chest, not checkers. So at 39, we have Dave Mays, founder of the source 38. We have Irv Gotti, founder of Murder, Inc. 37, Cardi B 36, Lil Wayne 35, Nipsey Hussle, 34. Steve Rifkin, from Loud Records 33, Missy Elliot. 32 Birder from Cookies, 31 Kevin Lyles and 30 Chris Lighty. [00:16:47] Zack Greenburg: Oh man, this is a pretty stacked bracket, I must say. I think that, you know, there are a couple of names that stick out to me here. I'm going to go with Nipsey and Berner, because in a funny way, I think, they have like a sort of a similar, a sort of similar strategy, which is like, you have a very clear idea of what it is that you're going to do. You own it, and then you, you know, you continue to own it like ownership. Was just such an important thing for Nipsey. Such an important thing for Berner. And, you know, interviewing the two of them, I would say, their mindset around ownership was the closest I've ever seen to Jay Z. and they really understood from the beginning that they had to own all their music. Own all of their branding own, you know, the companies that create on the side and then they can monetize it later. And, you know, with Nipsey rest in peace. I mean, he was just on the cusp of, of kind of like becoming a mainstream superstar, you know, when, his life ended all too soon. So, I think what Berner is doing with cookies is really fascinating like Berner is, you know, you want to talk, lists. I mean, he's in the top five, probably the top four or three at this point, in terms of net worth for actual, hip hop artists. And that's because of the success of cookies and, you know, there's been, a lot of ups and downs in the cannabis business lately, but like the amount of ownership that he has, you know, I think it amounts to about one third still of cookies, which is, you know, a billion dollar brand. When we gets legalized, you know, like he's going to see the fruits of his labor and, that focus on ownership I think is really going to pay off on the longterm. So I would highlight those two guys, in this tier as the ones that, I think were the most impressive to me. That's not to shade anybody else, but, [00:18:25] Dan Runcie: Yeah, those two guys are also two of the few people who I see people still wearing their merchandise on a regular basis. Granted, I live in San Francisco. There's a cookie store here. So, I mean, I know there is a local connection for sure, but same with Nipsey Hussle. I mean, sadly, it's now been over 4 years since he passed away, and you still see Crenshaw shirts. He understood, Nipsey especially, understood exactly where everything's going. And it's just so sad that, you know, it was gone so soon. Two names, I'm going to shout out here. I'm going to shout. I'm going to shout out Cardi B and I want to shout out Chris Lighty. So Cardi B talked about her a little with the Mona Scott young piece, but she's entered and ran her rap career more uniquely than other artists that we've seen at her level have. And I think that speaks a lot to just where the game is now. It's been over six years since Bodak Yellow came out. And it's been over five years now since her debut album. This is someone who hasn't put out a studio album in over five years. And hasn't gone on tour in a traditional way, but it's still doing her thing. And I think this is one of the things that's unique. She finds interesting ways to monetize herself and to put herself on. She's like, Hey, I can do these private shows and they're going to pay me, you know, 1. 5 million or 3 million just to do a half an hour set. I'm going to do my thing. I'm going to be there at Super Bowl weekend. I may not be performing at the Super Bowl, but I'm going to go do these private shows for Bob craft or the fanatics event or all these things and collect the checks. it's very interesting to see younger artists to do that Lionel Richie playbook, but she is like, Hey, I don't necessarily have to do that. And even though people always do try to, you know, loop her into the Nicki Minaj versus Cardi B beef, she still has lended her hand and extended it to other young artists, especially women in the game, whether it's Ice Spice and others, whether she's doing it through her talents and others. So she's someone that I hope as she continues on, you know, into her thirties and into her forties can continue to rise up this list. And then Chris Lighty talked about a little bit with Mona Sky Young, co founder of Violator and everything they're able to do there. Sad that he was taken away so soon, but if you have not heard this yet and if you haven't listened to the podcast, I highly recommend the Mogul podcast series that was done several years ago on it. It was done by Reggie Yose, who is Combat Jack, who has since passed away as well, but I highly recommend that if you want a full breakdown on everything Chris Leite did. Violator and after that was truly one of the early ones looking at product partnerships and a lot of the things that we see now that are common in hip hop. [00:21:07] Zack Greenburg: And, you know, if we didn't have Chris Lighty, I don't think we would have had 50 Cent. I mean, at least not to the extent that we have him. you know, I mean, I remember writing my first story about 50 and like for Forbes, maybe 2008 and sitting down with Chris and just kind of like hearing him lay out the plan. And again, it's the emphasis on ownership, right? you know, Chris Leidy, I think was the one who really pushed, 50 to take the equity in vitamin water and his parent company, rather than just do an endorsement. And, you know, obviously that became a huge, deal and really like a model for so much, not only of hip hop, but like other parts of the entertainment industry, you know, I think Chris definitely deserves a spot, maybe even should be a little higher. and you know, probably also, there's, you know, again, all these folks deserve a shout out, but Kevin Lyles, I think is, got one of the most inspirational stories. you know, it's another person, I think we've both interviewed a bunch of times, but, you know, just his journey from intern to president of Def Jam and I think seven years. And he just did it by working harder than everybody else like he wasn't an artist that got put there because he had some hit, it wasn't some kind of like nepotism deal, you know, he just outworked everybody and, you know, he had the talent and, you know, the horsepower to just like get it done. And to make that journey within seven years. So I think it's, for people who are listening and, you know, want to do something like that with their own career, you know, study Kevin Miles because he was able to make it, without being, you know, some kind of like preternatural, singing talent or something like that he just did it on smarts and work ethic. [00:22:39] Dan Runcie: And one of the few people that co founded a record label and sold it a decade later for hundreds of millions of dollars, which is what he did 300 as well. Right? So of course, not 300 now underwater, but everything he did with Lyor and Todd, there, is impressive. There's not that many black founders in general. In tech, any sector that have built and exited companies for several hundred, a million dollars, the way that he was able to be a part of that. So, hats off him. [00:23:09] Zack Greenburg: yeah, I think it takes a special kind of guts to be able to, you know, I mean, he was a well paid executive with a cushy music job, you know, to leave that world, start your own thing. I mean, I know they had, you know, big backers and everything, but like to take a risk once you've already experienced that level of success and to go out and start something, you know, as opposed to starting something from scratch when you have nothing anyway. I mean, it, takes a lot of gumption to do that. So, you know, again, yes, a pretty cool second act for Kevin miles. [00:23:38] Dan Runcie: Indeed, the next group here, our impact runs deep. It is Nicki Will Smith at 28, Swiss beats 27, LL Cool J, 26, Coach K and P, 25, Julie Greenwald, 24. The E40 23, Pharrell 22, and Rick Ross, 21. [00:24:01] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I think, that's a pretty strong, deck there. And I think also, you know, here, you find some people who, you could argue should be higher or lower based on, you know, how much of their career was done in the hip hop music world, right? Like Queen Latifah, LL Cool J, Will Smith. Obviously those are huge crossover acts. but I think they all got a lot of points from some of the voters because, you know, that is in one way, the measure of a mogul, like you're diversifying your portfolio and whether that's by owning different things or, you know, by getting into, different types of performance, you know, on the silver screen, I think that's a viable path too. but just from like a purely musical entrepreneurial perspective, I would highlight, Swiss Beats and Pharrell, who I think, you know, the two of them are more influential than anybody in terms of like, I'd say Swizz in terms of art and Pharrell in terms of fashion. and you know, some of the things they've done around those two areas and, you know, Pharrell certainly, now with LVMH, but also before with Ice Cream, Billionaire Boys Club, you know, he was very active in starting his own things on the fashion side. And, you know, kind of inspiring artists to do that. you know, would we have had a Yeezy if we hadn't had Pharrell, you know, doing what he was doing and, you know, and even doing what he did with Adidas? you know, I don't know about that. And, Swiss beads certainly, you know, not only from the art side of things, but you know, it's a really impressive art collection. I did a story on him a few years ago and, you know, he's got like, Jeff Kuhn sculptures and Basquiat's and Warhol's and his, you know, like in his foyer. I mean, it's, pretty impressive stuff. but the way that he moves behind the scenes, as sort of like a corporate brand whisperer, at places, you know, like Bacardi, Lotus, you know, this goes on, you know, I think he, he's sort of like more quietly influential than, some folks realize. And, you know, certainly has been earning, on par with, you know, with all the, you know, most of the names, if not higher than most of the names we've mentioned so far. and you know, what he's done on the, both of them, what they've done on the production side, also hard to top. So that must count for something as well. I kind of went more than one shout out there, didn't I? So [00:26:06] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, that was good. That was good. I'm glad you mentioned the two of them though, because if you didn't, I probably would've called the other one out. The thing about Swiss as well, everything that he's done with versus specifically also embodies this idea and definition of a mogul because he was able to be. A kingmaker in the sense of creating opportunities for others. He did that through the equity that he was able to give all of those early participants in versus in trailer itself. And then additionally, with the careers that we're able to have a boost because of. everything that happened, with the matchups from versus specifically, you look at someone like Ashanti, who is now doing tours and pop it up every now and then she wasn't doing that before her versus and her battle versus Keisha Cole was one of the not, if not the most watched one that we've had. You look at Jadakiss and everything that he's been able to do since his epic showdown against, with Lox versus Dipset with that versus you look at Jeezy versus Gucci Mane. I know that versus definitely had its peak popularity during the pandemic, but that kind of stuff that he was able to do with Timbaland, I think also speaks so much to everything that he's been able to do there. And another person I want to mention to that was in this group as well that I think is similar is LL Cool J because I think similar to the way that. Swiss beets is Ella is also with someone that's been involved with multimedia with everything from the jump. He was the 1st artist to truly breakthrough from Def Jam and did it as a teenager. So, of course, he gets plenty of shout out for that, but he's also always been trying to find ways to look out for that next generation of artists. And he's been doing some of that more recently with rock the bells, and that's its own. Company and entity now where they have a festival coming up as well to celebrate things that are happening with hip hops anniversary. So it's been cool to see him do things as well. And I'll give a very brief shout out here to, coach K and P because they, similar to how I mentioned, Kevin Liles were able to build and grow a company and then sell it for, I believe, forget the exact sale price for, quality control. But they were able to do that thanks in part to a lot of the work that Ethiopia had done, helping to give quality control, the platform that it did, and especially in an era where I think it's harder for a record label to have a true brand, they were able to help give it a boost. [00:28:36] Zack Greenburg: That's true. And on that note of labels, I think Julie Greenwald, there's a mention, you know, she and Craig Kalman, who's mentioned, in an earlier grouping, you know, run Atlantic together. And there's a lot of, of music that we wouldn't have seen if it had been for the two of them, you know, running the show over there. So, shout out to Julie. I mean, the only one actually we haven't discussed here with E40 and Rick Ross. And I don't know, you know, probably get moving, but, do you think Rick Ross deserves to be number 21 on this entire list? Like ahead of Pharrell, ahead of, you know, some of the other names on here. I was surprised that he was ranked this high. [00:29:09] Dan Runcie: I love the spicy questions. Cause this is what people wanted to hear the podcast about, right? They wanted to hear one of us, you know, poke the bear a little bit. If Rick Ross was able to nail that dive in the pool, do you think you would have ranked him higher? [00:29:21] Zack Greenburg: Ha ha ha ha ha ha. No, no, I wouldn't. I mean, I still know. I mean, you know, like I get it, you know, he's called the boss that he must be a mogul, You know, and, some of the things he's done in terms of, you know, Bel Air and Maybach music and all that. Sure. But like, you know, when you put them up against like some of the other ones, did he really do something new or was he more just like following a, blueprint that had worked for others before and, you know, executing it to a degree success, but like, again, not, you know, not to the level of, let's say Pharrell. I think maybe I just, I'm salty that he ended up ahead of Pharrell. I think Pharrell is just way more influential and Mowgli, but, I don't know. What do you think? [00:29:59] Dan Runcie: So, I've read 2 of Ross's books and I interviewed him once on Trapital. I think that, to your point, he did follow the blueprint that we saw from others. I think he is smart about the types of partnerships he does, but it does feel like a ditty light. Type of playbook that he's been able to do and build. And I do think a lot of it makes sense. He may not necessarily have the large media entities the way that he does. Although I do think he's overdue for some type of comedy show or some type of reality show just following him around because I think he's hilarious. And anytime that he gets that, it could just generate something unique. And I'm sure he's been hit up about it. I do think that he's done well for himself. Just thinking about. Now, how his career is growing, I think it's been what, 16, 17 years since hustling 1st came out. I think in this range, there is some flexibility there in terms of like, where people are in certain ways. I get why he may not necessarily be as high. I'm sure if you looked at the net worth or the earnings, that some of the people that are lower than him may actually be higher. I think 1 of the knocks potentially is although Maybach music was cool. I wrote about this in Trapit as well. I think there was a missed opportunity. And part of that comes from, huh, did Ross do all the things that he probably could have done from a leadership perspective to especially like, when Meek Mill and Wally were beefing and stuff. And I think Ross had a bit more of a laissez faire approach to things, which in some ways is kind of the opposite of King making as we're talking about this, right? Can we really bring folks together and make something larger than it is. I think it was a bit tough in general for people to try to do everything themselves, try to be the boss of this label, which is signed to a different label because Rick Ross was signed to a different label than MNG was himself. And I think anytime you have that type of dynamic, it's just splitting the leadership interests. So I hear you. [00:32:00] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. So then how much of a mogul are you, if your label is really, you know, so I guess everybody's labels on somebody else's label and have you distributed by something, but you know, it's like when they're like multiple labels kind of, you know, intertwined with your label, it kind of causes the question. are you really the boss? If you have several bosses that you're answering to, but you know, I think actually though. in Rick Ross's defense, what he's done with Wingstop, I mean, that is pretty unique and, I don't know that anybody else on this list has something comparable in that space. So, you know, maybe that's why, I think, you know, by virtue of that, you could put them pretty high up. And maybe that's what some of the judges were thinking, you know, but he also ended up on a lot of lists, you know, so some of the judges just kind of like, maybe we're getting to some of the judges sent rank lists, and they're like, you know, this person is the top and they should get the most points and other people were like, here are my people. And you can just rank them evenly. and I think Rick Ross ended up on a lot of those lists. So, you know. I think again, maybe like I was alluding to earlier, he's a bit of a compiler, nothing wrong with that, you know, you can get into the hall of fame by compiling 3000 hits, but, it's interesting to see how, how the opinions differ. That's the whole fun of it. [00:33:06] Dan Runcie: He runs his business is almost like how a small business owner would in a number of ways where he has a bunch of car washes and, you know, his is 1 of the family members does that he has his wing stops, right? He has that. And it is a bit of this, like, mogul dumbness from that perspective in terms of like, okay, I have my hands in these things and I've hired people to have, you know, different roles within that that doesn't necessarily have things in aggregate. It's a bit more of the strip mall mentality as opposed to the, you know, building a skyscraper that could then build other skyscrapers, but it's something worth mentioning, but I hope we keep that up with a few of the other rankings we have coming up as we dig into the top 20, here. So, yeah, let's start with 20. So, 20, Queen Latifah, I think that she and, Ice Cube, who we'll get into in a minute, were one of the first that noticed, hey, I may not be able to do this rap thing forever, what are areas that I can expand this multimedia empire and everything I'm building. She was able to do this with Living Single, the show that was Friends before Friends was, and even the way that she was able to show young black people that were having, you know, highly sought after roles, but they still had their interpersonal dynamics. It was cool. It was refreshing. It was aspirational, which I do think that a lot of the black sitcoms were in the 90s. And she was able to do that, continue finding ways to put other people on as well through the work that she did. She was also willing to take risks. Like I remember when she was in set it off, people had a bunch of questions about, Oh, you're going to play a lesbian in this heist movie. What is this going to do for your career? And she was willing to do that. And I think she is always, you know, be willing to take risks. So, you know, shout out to her and I'm glad that several people have mentioned her [00:34:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think she gets credit for, like you say, diversifying her portfolio. you know, into the acting world. it's worth noting, you know, she was barely ahead of Rick Ross. but you know, there is a big difference between 21 and 20. It's the top 20. So, again, I think, you know, she was a bit of a compiler, but there were a couple of people who ranked her in the top 10. and, you know, I think just like in terms of the breadth of her career, you know, the longevity, the diversity of the things that she's gotten into. you know, even if it's not as much ownership as somebody, even like a Rick Ross, it's just like, having your hands in a lot of pies and like that really counts for something as a mogul. So, I think it makes sense to see you there. [00:35:36] Dan Runcie: Agreed 19 is Eminem. So let's talk about it. How do we feel about Eminem in 19? [00:35:43] Zack Greenburg: You know, I think it's a weird one, honestly. you know, there's no doubting, his lyrical prowess and where, you know, where he kind of stacks up as part of like the pantheon of lyricists, like fine. But is he really a mogul? I mean, he's somebody who has been, you know, very reclusive at times.  Who has, you know, kind of gotten in his own way at other times. I mean, I could see ranking him up here though, just by virtue of ownership of the music and sort of like the quality and quantity of his catalog. you know, what he did with D12, you know, he did have shady records and, you know, and all that. So again, you know, there, there is kind of a layer cake of a label situation, like some of the folks who mentioned earlier across, but, you know, that was at least important to him to set up, you know, as his continued ownership of, You know, his work and, you know, certainly when it comes to like raw commercial prowess, you know, Eminem, is one of the best selling hip hop artists of all time. If not the best, depending on how you look at it. And just, you know, simply by virtue of the amount of revenue he generated, you know, throughout the late 90s and early aughts at the peak of the sort of CD age there. you know, that deserves, some kind of something, even if he wasn't running around starting his own, you know, side businesses as much as some of these other folks [00:37:02] Dan Runcie: Best selling artist of the 2000s by a pretty strong amount, I believe, and has the most of any genre, right? And the most streamed song of the 2000s as well, at least on Spotify with Lose Yourself, and I'm pretty sure Till I Collapse and maybe a couple of others aren't too far. Behind as Will Page as Spotify's former chief economist said, anytime Eminem farts or burps or releases anything on a streaming service, it provides a huge bump to everything in this back catalog. So, I still laugh about that, but I do think that speaks to it there and. If, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was one of the first hip hop artists to have a Sirius XM channel himself. So that's something that's unique and obviously Sirius is still doing its thing. So, shout out to him there. A bit higher than I probably would have ranked him, but that's why it's interesting to get the group results here. Ah, this one's gonna be spicy. Number 18. Your boy, Suge Knight. [00:38:02] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, you know, I mean, I think this is one of the tougher ones on the entire list. You know, this is not like a list of, Ms. Congeniality or Mr. Congeniality, as you'll see, you know, some of the other names on here. Obviously, you know, Suge is in jail. he's been involved in the death of, you know, human beings that like that is, you know, not sort of like what you're after in a mogul here, but, enough people, you know, I guess felt that the business, if you just, you know, looking at it from a pure business perspective, was enough to put them up here. And, you know, there is no arguing that death row at its peak was one of the most influential record labels, you know, not just in hip hop, but of anything. I mean, any genre, when death row was at its hottest, I don't know any, kind of moment where any other, you know, you'd have to stack that up against peak Motown or, you know, Atlantic or something like that, but, you know, that was really like a, peak moment. So, you know, I think this is one of the things we run into on this list like if somebody exhibits, a level of, you know, sort of business ingenuity, you know, that counts for something and, you know, the other things that you do in your life and your career, you know, we'll detract from that, but, you know, what you did at your peak, I think will get you pretty far in a list like this when people kind of count, you know, we kind of count sort of like the ceiling as opposed to the average, in some cases. So, I don't know. What do you think? [00:39:27] Dan Runcie: These are the two most impressive business moves that Suge Knight has done. Number two is shaking down Vanilla Ice to get his points for everything that he did on the album that had Ice Ice Baby there. Because he was able to use that money to then start and co found Death Row with Dr. Dre. That's number two. Number one is at the 1995 Source Awards where he publicly makes his Call to attract Tupac to say, Hey, I know you're in jail, but we're riding with you. Tupac wasn't signed there at the time, but he knew that this was an opportunity. Tupac likely needed somewhere to call a home and he called his shot. He was able to make it happen. I know everyone talks about the diddy shot about, you know, being all in the video death row. And that, of course, is infamous in its own right. But I think the number one thing that should night did is that that said. those 2 things speak to what should night is, 1, it is that muscle and the prowess of being able to overpower a situation and then take advantage. And I think those were things that he was good at. That said, I don't think he was necessarily strong as a. Business leader, the company imploded in large part. And I don't think it imploded because of Dr. Dre, it imploded because of all of the things, all the shenanigans. And I think for what he was building, some of that just got a little too close to the sun, unfortunately. And, that's Chuck Knight [00:40:49] Zack Greenburg: And, I think that, you know, in some of the reporting I've done over the years, One of the things people say is that Shug and a lot of the guys around him, you know, it wasn't that they were necessarily like that. It's just they kind of had been watching too many bad gangster movies and the music business, didn't know what to do with somebody like Suge Knight. And so the more he kind of like played this role, the more he grew into it to where, to the point where he was actually living sort of a bad gangster movie. and sort of like created, turned himself into a monster. Yeah, so I think like the evolution. or the evolution, of somebody like Suge Knight is sort of fascinating in terms of like what you can, what sort of playing a role can do to you, over the course of time. [00:41:32] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And well said number 17 here is America's most wanted ice cube. I'll start here to kick things off. I think that Ice Cube, like Queen Latifah mentioned earlier, was one of the early ones who had said that he knew that living and doing everything off a raft wasn't gonna last forever. And I think a lot of it was because he experienced some of the brunt and ugliness of it. I mean, we've all seen the Straight Outta Compton movie. He goes into Jerry Heller's office. He starts smashing shit. He releases no Vaseline. There was definitely a no fucks given that carried through even after he was done with NWA, but he saw what this industry is like as well and then that's when he starts writing screenplays. And then that's how Friday because the thing becomes a thing. And then. His career just continues to take off after that he still dabbled in rap and did his thing, but he definitely became known early on for one of the people that took a risk with cube entertainment and everything that he was able to do there. And with any of the movies that he had, whether it was the movies with Mike Epps and plenty others, I do believe that most of these movies were pretty profitable. And he was able to. Do it work within the confines that he had and just continue to build everything he did from a career. We've seen him expand as well into everything that he's done with the big 3 specifically giving a home for basketball players that can still play, but maybe they can't make, you know, a 13 person NBA roster anymore. I do think that some of his more recent news highlights that are a bit more politically driven or him walking around with Tucker Carlson and probably take it away from some of the more prominent memories of Hugh Ice Cube is, but yeah, that's why I had had him or that's why he, I think deserves to be, you know, where he is, on the list. [00:43:27] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think it's interesting, you know, you see, Eminem, Suge Knight, Ice Cube, all together, you know, they're all, inextricably connected to Dr. Dre. one way or the other. Right. and you know, would there, would Dre have been Dre without the three of them? you know, at different phases of his career, you know, I don't know, I mean, I think certainly what, Ice Cube did as part of NWA, you know, I wouldn't say that, that NWA was like. like a business first organization. But like that wasn't the point of NWA and if it hadn't been for NWA, I don't think you would have been able to have business first organizations come out of hip hop in the way that you did. and certainly, you know, somebody like Dr. Dre, so. I think he gets extra points for that. and, you know, this is probably why, you know, he was again, I don't know, was he compiler? He was, you know, he had like a lot of kind of middling, a lot of lists, a couple of top 10 votes, you know? So, you know, I think again, everybody has their favorite and he's up there for a lot of folks. [00:44:27] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Number 16 is Drake. Should we poke the bear again? [00:44:33] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Does Drake deserve to be at number 16 on this list? [00:44:37] Dan Runcie: This one surprised me, I was very surprised at the number of people that had him on the list, because you can make a case for the opposite, right? It's similar to the M and M thing, but almost to the extreme because M and M, yes, most commercially successful artists, XYZ. There's other artists that are less commercially successful at M and M that did more in that mogul definition but for Drake, it's even bigger of a Delta between these two, because here you have the most streamed artists of all time. So clearly commercially successful on its own, but people believe that OVO. Records or OVO sound itself actually could hurt an artist's career. And when you think about that, you think about some of the other multimedia things that he's done. I know he's been active as an investor and I know that people like Nicki Minaj and others have said, Oh, you know, Drake's a low key billionaire. He just doesn't want you to know it personally. Again, he may be, I mean, I'm not sure what he may not disclose, but it isn't always just about wealth. It's like, what opportunities were you able to create for each other? I do think it's good. That drink has been able to have different people that have been working alongside that. I think did get a bit of that drink stimulus package. And I think that's something that is quite debated, but I do think that. I feel like 21 Savage has definitely benefited from it. I mean, he was already commercially successful, but for him and Drake to do a joint album together was huge. I think it was the same way that it was huge for Future and the same way that the Migos going on tour with Drake in 2018 was huge for them and anything else that Drake continues to do from that perspective. So I think it is, you know, debatable, but I mean, people do definitely add some weight to the artists themselves. [00:46:18] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And, you know, I think he should be around Eminem and whether they're both too high is an open question, but, you know, there's no doubting the commercial viability of what he's done. He did start more side businesses in Eminem, right? With OVO, whether it's the label, the festival, the clothing line, you know, he started a whiskey brand called Virginia black, which I tried once. It tasted okay. but I don't think it's selling, you know, I don't know if he's even still doing it. yeah, he is definitely involved as a startup investor, so maybe, you know, we'll see some exits and we start to think of him differently at that point. But, yeah, you know, again, I think it's, some voters just kind of overweighted, you know, musical prowess and pop culture influence. And if you're talking about that, I, I don't know anybody who's been as influential in the past 15 years. I mean, he's, you know, he's the most streamed artist of all time and that's got to count for something. [00:47:08] Dan Runcie: Right. I know his cannabis line failed, but there's a lot of people, even people that we'll get to in this list that have also had failed or struggling cannabis businesses. And, there's a lot that we could discuss there, but moving on number 15 is Sylvia Robinson, the originator. [00:47:26] Zack Greenburg: I think she deserves to be in the top five, personally. because if there were no Sylvia Robinson, yeah, I mean, I don't know that we have hip hop and, you know, it's, you know, for those who don't know the story, she was running sugar hill records with her husband, Joe sylvia was actually a child star singer herself. And, you know, they kind of had this like middling existence with their label. And then all of a sudden she's at this birthday party that she didn't even want to go to in Harlem and she sees Lovebug Starsky up on the microphone. A hip hop hippie to the hippie to the hip hip hop. You know, this is early, early seventies. She's never heard anything like it. All the kids, you know, hands in the air, like you just don't care. And the whole thing. she tries to get Lovebug to sign. There's some kind of dispute, like with his management, never happens. And so she just goes to the pizzeria in New Jersey, finds three kids, get him, gets them to talk real fast over this record is how she described it. and that's, you know, that's Rapper's Delight. That's the first hip hop song on Wax. That's the first hit. you know, that sort of spawns the whole genre. So, you could certainly argue, that, you know, she, borrowed or she hired, hired people who borrowed or whatever to do this, you know, like the idea that, that the first hip hop, track on wax was like, you know, originated in a pizza shop in New Jersey is really unfortunate cause it started at the Bronx, but like, you know, Sylvia came from Harlem. She, you know, she, she knew that world. Like, you know, she was part of the music business and, for better or worse, she took hip hop from being, you know, just basically like spoken word in person kind of thing to being, you know, national events. Would it have happened eventually? Yeah, I think so. But you know, who knows? I mean, it could have taken years longer and if it took years longer, you know, are we going to have the eighties with like run DMC and Def Jam and all that? Like, you know, I don't know. I mean, it, could have taken a lot longer to get off the ground if she hadn't done what she'd done. And, you know, I don't think we, I don't think we should really be dinging Sylvia Robinson for her Machiavellian tactics, given some of the other people on this list, you know, we're talking like Suge Knight and whoever else, you know, there's quite nefarious characters, you know, as we get higher up too in this list. So, you know, I don't think anything she did was. remotely as bad as, as like a lot of the dudes on this list. and, you know, so, you know, let's, I think we give her her due and yeah, I would definitely put her higher, but, you know, I think that's part of the deal when, when you have somebody who's that early on. You know, people are going to say, Oh, well, you know, the total gross is not quite as much as so and so or whatever the case may be. And she wasn't as famous as some of the artists. So, but you know, she's up there, I mean, ahead of some pretty big names, Drake, Eminem, what have you. So, I think she's getting some flowers here [00:50:00] Dan Runcie: The total gross knock is always one that makes me roll my eyes a bit because even if you take out the inflation aspect and the amount of money that's now in the industry, this is something that happens with pioneers in any type of industry. They are the ones that take the early hits to make it possible. She and her work is what made it possible for rappers to like, she and her workers have made it possible for the message and anything else that we then see after that. Yes. Sugar Hill. records did have its struggles, afterward, like many other labels. But what do you think about broader context of the eighties being a very tough time in general for black music? And there were only a certain number of decision makers in power that could make that happen. Yeah. You have to take that into account. And then additionally, she did stuff outside of even just this record label itself. As you mentioned, she was a recording artist herself. She also owned a nightclub. So there were other mogul type things that she had her hands. And so shout out to Sylvia, who knows where this would be without her. [00:51:00] Zack Greenburg: And probably worth caveating also that, you know, she did have some, Disputes over paying artists, as the years went on. So did like really a lot of people on this list is we could do like a whole separate, you know, like has some kind of dispute on how they pay artists. So, you know, that, that's probably worth noting too, but yeah, I mean, so does everybody else. And, you know, I think she deserves her flowers. [00:51:22] Dan Runcie: Number 14, Dame Dash, [00:51:25] Zack Greenburg: Another, another hot one coming in. I mean, I think a lot of people would disagree with this, but you know, some people would put them even higher. I mean, I think he might be the most polarizing name on this entire list. Like some people had on top five, you know, some people didn't list them at all. you know, I think it kind of comes in. We've had this conversation before. Would there be a Jay Z without a Damon Dash? you know, I mean, I think so, but it's that part of the, you know, we've talked about him in the context of startups and do you, you know, you need a different kind of founder for your like pre seed days than you do for your series B. you know, if you're like a mafia, family, you need like a wartime Don, you know, versus like a peacetime Don or whatever it's called. But like, you know, I think, Dame Dash is a wartime Don. He's a seed stage startup founder. and he does it fair as well. You know, when it comes to like the growth stage and the corporate boardrooms and stuff, but, you know, there's no denying his brilliance. you know, I think what he did, you know, certainly with rock aware, you know, expanding, the Roc-A-Fella empire beyond music. you know, maybe he realized that Jay was eventually going to leave and that they just, it wasn't going to be forever. And so he wanted to get his hands into, you know, as many different areas as he could, but, you know, there's like a lot of pro and a fair bit of con, but, you know, I think again, he's one who, you know, the pro outweighed the con, he didn't kill anybody, you know, so there's some people on here who did. yeah, the con is only like so much con in my opinion. [00:52:56] Dan Runcie: This conversation makes me think about, that backstage documentary that. Roc-A-Fella had put out after the hard knock life tour. And there's that infamous scene of Dave dash yelling and swearing at Kevin Lyles, who was at Def Jam at the time about the jackets and where what logo was supposed to be, or something other than that. And thinking about that in context now of like, you know, how we talked about Kevin Lyles and everything he was able to do from that run and still can continue to do. And with where Dame Dash is, is in his career, Dame Dash doing his thing. I think he very much lived through and practice and preach the ownership standards that worked for him, where he has Dame Dash Studios, Dame Dash this, and he's been able to. Create exactly what he wanted to. We heard him on that infamous 2015 breakfast club interview where he's yelling at DJ Envy and Charlemagne about, Oh, well, if your son wants a job, can you get him a job here at power 105 or whatever? No. Well, I can do him at where I'm at. And as comic as the delivery was, there is some aspect of mogul dumb. That is a bit of that King making aspect of, okay, can you create opportunities for others around you? What those opportunities look like definitely vary. And I think that is a factor. So I do highlight that is something that Dame is able to do. And Dave is also similar to he's similar to a polarizing basketball player in the sense that the media may look and be like, why do you all fuck with this guy? Like, what's going on? But if you ask the people that are actually in it, a lot of that would be like, oh, well, you got to look at Dame dash, Dame dash is the guy. And when I have. Interviewed. I'm sure you've interviewed and talked to many of young artists, too, or young label executives, too. A lot of them will reference Dave Dash. A lot of them will look at what he was able to do alongside Roc-A-Fella, almost in the same way that, you know, players will swear by Kyrie or swear by James Harden or some other type of athlete that may be polarizing in their own right. And the media is like, Oh, why do you all like this guy? And it's like, Oh, well, no, you don't understand. So there's something about. The people, and obviously I say that being self aware is us as people more so on the media side, as opposed to being in it themselves. But there's something about these young artists and moguls as well that have always looked up and respected what Dame has built. And even though it may not resonate, like, personally, I acknowledge that. [00:55:23] Zack Greenburg: I would say, if you're going to make a basketball reference, Maybe not personality, but like basketball style, I'd almost liken him to Carmelo Anthony, you know, like he's an isolationist. He's a scorer, like, you know, he may not be very good at distributing the basketball, but like, you know, you throw him the ball in the corner and he's going to find a way to get it in. And, You know, like a lot of people wouldn't think that he belongs in the Hall of Fame at all, you know, but some people would, be insistent on it. So, you know, yeah, I think that sort of like singular focus, you know, you could definitely give him credit for that, [00:55:55] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Number 13, we are Cohen. [00:55:58] Zack Greenburg: man, another like bulldozer of a human being, but, you know, certainly somebody who, you know, maybe he has also got the finger roll, you know, like he, he can have a light touch when needed. you know, I think just like in terms of longevity, we talk about longevity with some of the names on this list, you know, Leroy was there in the very beginning of hip hop, you know, managing rappers, and it gives the road manager run DMC, taking the leadership role, running Def Jam and Warner, starting 300. Now, you know, YouTube's head of music, you know, the number of careers that he's touched over the years. From, you know, whatever hip hop pioneers you want to mention. I mean, you know, talking about LL Cool J, Run D. M. C., Beastie Boys. you know, to like later on with, you know, Jay, and then, you know, more recently, like whose career doesn't he touch, at YouTube? you know, I think he's a hard one to argue with. I mean, you know, I think though that, I like this basketball analogy though. You're like, he might be more of a Scottie Pippen because he's always been like, you know, there's almost always somebody else, Who he's working with, who is like higher up on this list than he is, you know, and we can get to some of those names in a bit, but, I guess now that he's at YouTube, he really is running the show.  but he can score, he can make the assists. you know, get these rebounds, get the triple double. I think Lyor is a, definitely deserves a spot up here. [00:57:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah, the do it for what? 4 plus decades. Now, if we're looking back to us, well, almost 4 decades, if we're looking at it in total, but impressive each step of the way. And there is something admirable. I think about the no fucks given mentality and perspective of just how he's been able to do things. And I do think that a lot of hip hop executives over time have been criticized for not thinking about efficiency and things like that enough. And I do think that we, or was 1 of them who probably lead a bit more into that. And regardless of who it was, willing to call someone out about it. I think back to, there was this interview that he had done with Young Thug a couple years ago. And, this is back when Lyor was at 300 and Thug, they were talking about the process. And he says to Thug, he's like, why don't you spend more time on your music? You have these like little songs that you just like, leave like little orphans. Like, why don't you like actually grow and nurture them? And it's back and forth where Thug's trying to be like, Oh, he doesn't understand it. You know, you got to just drop frequently the audience. That's what they want to hear. So it was very much an interesting dichotomy of just seeing where things are of the streaming era, but I think that highlighted that even when thug was peak, like, everyone was like, oh, yeah, thug is the next 1 up. He was still like, hey, no, like, you need to do better. So there was something interesting about that. And that. Even I think his mission as well with YouTube, like I think before he got there with YouTube, YouTube was often seen as such the enemy of the music industry in some ways, the same way that any other type of distributor is. And he's took it upon his badge to be like, no, I don't only want to be a friend to YouTube. I want to be the number one. Source of revenue for the music industry. So really working to just change the narrative, both from a positioning perspective, but also everything there, I think has been a cool additional chapter in his career. Because I think a lot of the people that we have maybe named on this list that were big in the 80s or 90s, but are kind of on the list for legacy reasons like, we are still doing it. [00:59:09] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. all right. Who do we got next? I think, [00:59:12] Dan Runcie: 12, we got Jimmy Iovine. [00:59:15] Zack Greenburg: That's interesting. I thought he would be higher. I think we both had him higher but you know, maybe I think sometimes, yeah, again, he's another one where when you have like such a broad portfolio of work and some of it is not in hip hop, then, you know, people don't necessarily consider you for a list like this. So. you know, I mean, here's a guy who had experience with U2 and, you know, all these great rockers and, you know, he ended up at Apple. so I think maybe he got dinged a little bit for that, but you know, there's no doubting his impact, from Interscope to Beats, you know, certainly there's no Dre on the commercial side, without Jimmy. And, you know, I think his ability to see, you know, there's this, famous. He and Dre have been walking down the beach in Malibu or wherever. and Dre's like, you know, I've got this new deal. somebody wants me to make sneakers. And Jimmy's like, F sneakers. Let's make speakers. you know, that was the birth of, Beats, or at least that's how I was told, but you could kind of see him saying that, right. he always had that vision for not just creating. a new product, but an entirely new category. And that's what they did with beats. And I think that alone, you know, I mean, that's like, I think the single biggest hip hop business deal, 3 billion, selling to Apple. I think that should probably get him a little higher. you know, maybe not top five, but I think we both put them higher than 12. [01:00:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah, agreed. Yeah, nothing else to add there. I thought he would have been on the top 10, but yeah, it's always interesting to see how these things play out. Number 11, Jay Prince, Rap A Lot Records, another interesting one to see where he ended up on this list. [01:00:54] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, he's sort of a sleeper pick, like hip hop heads, would know Jay Prince, but I don't know, you know, And certainly like most of the people we've mentioned are more well known from the pop culture standpoint. But I guess if you look at our judges, it's very hip hop industry specific. So, you know, specifics of, you know, I think Jay Prince is like, he's sort of like, you know, you talk about the rapper's rapper, he's like the hip hop moguls, hip hop mogul. And I think, and again, it's reflected in the judges, like, you know, some people didn't have him on his list, but he got a ton of top 10 votes, you know, across the board. So, yeah, I think that, that propelled him is like, if you know, you know, you know, his significance to the genre. [01:01:33] Dan Runcie: And even the artists rising now, you always hear that there's some connection to J Prince, which gives you an idea of the tentacles that he has right? When Drake is like, Oh, I decided not to come back and push a tee after what he said, because J Prince said I shouldn't. And you're like, okay, J Prince really is in this. You hear about Meg the Stallion and just her coming up as a Houston rapper mentioning J Prince the way that she does. He's stayed in it. And for someone that hasn't touched a mic, he definitely is one of the highest people on this list that hasn't touched a mic. [01:02:06] Zack Greenburg: I think he is the second highest sort of, well, we can [01:02:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, we could get into that. Yeah. so now we're into the top 10, number 10, SNOP Snoop Dogg. [01:02:22] Zack Greenburg: I think this is a great place for Snoop. I mean, you know, he's certainly, You know, if you ask people like Snoop Dogg, artist or businessman, people would probably say artist first, but, he really does have a tremendous business sense. And, you know, in terms of like the raw, total of endorsement deals done, startup investments made, you know, like he is out there, with his brand. And, you know, I think more than just about anybody else on this list and, you know, not in stupid ways, like he's very thoughtful about it. You know, and I think this whole like Martha Stewart, you know, bromance, whatever you want to call it, has been like hilarious and wonderful for his brand, but you know, you see him endorsing everything like Skechers and you know, he's in, in all these spots. And, I think what he's doing Casa Verde, you know, that's just his vehicle to invest in cannabis is like very on point. He understands his brand. and you know, he understands ownership, but he also understands how to make money. And he's doing a little bit of both. So I think above all with Snoop, what is the most impressive is how he's transitioned from, you know, who he was at the beginning of his career to who he is now. I mean, this is a guy who was, you know. On trial for murder. Like, you know, like this is quite a ways to go from there to being piling around with Martha Stewart. you know, I think she ultimately was the one who did the time, but like, you know, you know, just to have like. That kind of 180 for your personal brand, speaks to his brilliance in marketing. and I think, you know, like he might be more emblematic than anybody in hip hop of how hip hop was able to transition from where it was in the 90s and the east coast, west coast thing to today and, tying up with corporate America. and you know, it's a pretty remarkable feat. So yeah, I think, he definitely deserves a spot in the top [01:04:13] Dan Runcie: The man literally went from being the reason why Time Warner wanted nothing to do with its Interscope investment and being on the cover of a Newsweek in this like borderline mugshot photo of being like, Oh, this is what's wrong with hip hop to now being the emblematic brand whisperer. And yeah. On the covers with someone who actually did serve jail time, Martha Stewart, incredible. Yeah. Incredible. Number 9, this one's interesting. So number 9 is Nas. He made it to the top 10 and I'm glad that Nas is on this list. Of course, legendary MC, very influential with everything he's done from an investing perspective and what he's been able to do as well with other types of partnerships, helping to revive the mass appeal brand as well. I don't know if I've necessarily seen as much of the king making or as much of the, oh, I was able to put X and Y other person on in that same type of way, but I do respect that a lot of people had him on here and they likely do, you know, see him as inspiration in that way. But yeah, what are your thoughts? [01:05:19] Zack Greenburg: I think with Nas, it all comes down to the startup investing and, you know, of anybody on this list, I think he is the most influential when it comes to hip hop and Silicon Valley and the relationship that he had with Ben Horowitz or it has, you know, basically they connected over a shared love of barbecue and hip hop. I think Steve Stapp put them together. You know, it turned him from somebody who would never be considered for a list like this as recently as, you know, probably 10, 15 years ago, probably even 10 years ago, we wouldn't have had him on this list, to being top 10. And, you know, Nas was always the guy who he was the rapper's rapper, you know, he cared about the music, not the money. And, you know, but I think, you know, thanks to Anthony Sala, who he worked with, you know, continues to work with, sort of a startup whisper for him. he was able to accumulate stakes in some of, you know, most influential startups out there. I mean, I think he was in early in Lyft, Coinbase, a whole bunch of others. So, you know, Nas, to me, like, you could probably argue at this point, Jay Z may have a bigger portfolio. Jay Z may have overtaken everybody as sort of like the primary Silicon Valley a force among hip hop's royalty, but, you know, Nas was the one who really kind of showed the way. and the amount that he's done in a relatively short period of time, I think, you know, it's super impressive. And, you know, when you talk about who did something different on this list, he did, that's something very different. so props to NOS for that. [01:06:43] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Number 8 here is another interesting 1 to talk about is Kanye West. Kanye West famously rose up a lot of these net worth and, Highest earner list because of the success he had in fashion specifically with Adidas and his partnership with his brand Yeezy and arguably having the next most successful brand next to Jordan in terms of a single person being able to whether it's an athlete or entertainer being able to have. A shoe and will look like a shoe franchise that was going to live on. Unfortunately, we've clearly seen that implode and the implosion a bit. Unfortunately, I do think is maybe part of the reason why someone like yay may not be even higher on this list is because being a mogul. Is something about, like, we've talked about before the ability to have the influence to be able to put the pieces in particular areas. And for someone like yay to then go and make anti Semitic remarks, condone hate speech, promote hate speech. And you see all that crumbling down. One, of course, you mentioned that there's many people on this list that have done disgraceful things. But of course, we're hiding that calling that out here. But two, you just see how much that impact and it really destroyed so much of what has been able to build that shows some weakness in the quote unquote mogul foundation aspect of things. And I know that he was able to create opportunities for others through good music. I think most famously, we look at Pusha T and everything Pusha T was able to do in his career after the, my beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy album, and then becoming president of good music, I think. He's able to do that. Some of the early co signs with Travis Scott and others, I think, you know, work to, Yeezy's advantage as well. I think we've still yet to see that infamous Donda org chart with all of the various things that Yeezy wants to build come to life. If he is able to build that at some point, then would happily rank him higher on a list like this. But that's where I'm at with Ye on the mogul list. [01:08:47] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think like with, you know, a lot of other names on this list, it's sort of like, what was your ceiling? and you've got a lot of points for that. But then you get points taken off for, you know, for, sort of bad things you did or, or maybe not the things you, bad things you did from a personal level. Cause a lot of people are still high up anyway, but at least from a business perspective, I mean. You know, yeah, he was, at one point the wealthiest hip hop artist in history. I think also the wealthiest musician of any genre, maybe the wealthiest entertainer, depending on how you count that. but he also destroyed, like overnight the largest fortune in, hip hop history, at least to that point, with what he was doing. And, you know, you can talk about mental illness and that's, you know, very real, situation for him, unfortunately. But like, at the end of the day, you know, there's no condoning, the kind of stuff that he was saying and promoting and, you know, really having an effect. And you could see in some of the statistics out there, you know, hate crimes, especially against Jews have been up, you know, over the past year or so. And there's a lot of other factors going into that, but like, you can't be contributing to that kind of thing. so, yeah, I think you know, if that hadn't happened, you know, I think he would have made it into the top five for sure. and it's worth noting that, you know, he got, like, probably like a half dozen top five votes anyway. A lot of people left him off, you know, I don't know, I was bouncing all over where I would put him, but, I think you have to kind of consider not just what he created, but what he tore down. And so, yeah, he should be on this list, you know, he created probably with maybe the exception of beats, the most valuable brand to come out of hip hop and Yeezy. But then he also tore it down. So, you know, that's what this list is about. you get to have these debates. [01:10:20] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Agreed. Number seven, someone I'm excited to talk about 50 cent . 50, I mean, where do you even start? I think there's a few things 1, of course, you could talk about the rap career and how he was able to use shock value to his advantage with songs like how to rob and how that continue to be a through line with this career, starting all the beef with the murdering camp and everyone else there. But I think that same mentality work to his advantage as a businessman to we have both talked to broken down the deal that he did with vitamin water and for hip hop, that was 1 of the 1st of its kind that we saw. That was really dope to see. He continued to do plenty of other business ventures, be involved with things, but I think what's kept him in the mix, especially the past decade or so is what he's been able to do on the multimedia side. He has been single handedly. In many ways, carrying one of the legacy streaming platforms out there with stars. I was listening to a podcast that talked about how power and all of the various power books and chapters are responsible for 25% of the demand on that platform. And that, of course, that number came through parody analytics, so it doesn't exactly reflect on viewership, but when you look at how he was able to just continue that in an era where I think it's hard to create shows like that, that last, we obviously saw shows like Empire come and go and others, but he's still at it and it's been impressive to see how he's continued to that. And especially with the type of people that acted in power, that's a bit of that. Yeah. Making aspect where you're creating opportunities for other artists, whether it's, you know, having Mary J Blige in there or having different folks like that. So, I do think as much as he still is the same 50 will still cloud will still do jokes. We saw him courtside, the NBA playoffs of the Sacramento playoff, or the Sacramento Kings game because his alcohol company has a partnership with the Sacramento Kings. And I believe he also has one with the Houston Rockets too. So it's good to see that even 16 years after one of the most influential exits in hip hop, 50 is still doing his thing. [01:12:25] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And I think, it also goes back to ownership like so many of these cases, right when he got that deal, you know, his first record deal, he always says he went out and he took, you know, his first million dollars and went and, you know, registered all the trademarks for G unit and all these different things that he was going to do with it. and you know, he built a brand that was bigger than just 50 cent, right? He built a lot of brands that are bigger than just 50 cent. And I think what he did with vitamin water, I know we talked about it in the context of Chris Lighty, that set the blueprint, you know, not just for hip hop, but, you know, for the entertainment business on the whole, I remember I was doing a cover story on Ashton Kutcher for Forbes, you know, five, 10 years ago about his startup, sort of investing career. And, you know, he's Ashton Kutcher is probably like the most, successful entertainer investing in startups in terms of like successes and breadth and depth and all that. And I asked him why he started and he said, you know, I saw 50 cents deal. I, you know, I saw the vitamin water thing come through and I had just done like a Kodak film thing and, you know, for cash. And I was like, man, what am I doing? I got to get in on these startups. So, you know, 50 really inspired Ashton Kutcher to go do the startup thing, which then I think led to the whole entertainment industry getting involved in the startup thing. and, you know, came back around to Nas and eventually Jay. So, I think that, you know, what he did all the way back in when it was like two, 2006, 2007, that kind of set the mark, for others to follow and was, you know, new and interesting. I mean, Nas did it differently, right? Nas was more about being an actual VC at 50 cents on one deal that he thought was pretty cool and he was into the equity side of it, but yeah, I think that's, you know, that is definitely a trailblazing maneuver. And even if he doesn't do anything else ever again, I think, you know. he's a rightful claim to the spot. [01:14:09] Dan Runcie: Agreed . Number 6 on the list is Master P. he's another 1 that has continued to live on from a legacy perspective in terms of the young record label executives, the young artists, who are they modeling themselves after? Who do they want to do? And so many of them reference that late 90s, no limit run the ownership and how Master P. As many other record label executives worth the time, which we'll get into, but how he was able to navigate things and just the feeling of branding marketing and all of the different areas that he's been able to have his hand into and multimedia in product sales. He gets his product app distribution and Walmart and other stores like that. So it's been interesting and I think good to see him in the mix with things. He's always one of those names that comes up with, oh, there's this big brand for sale, whether it's Reebok or this sports team or this multimedia thing. He's always been in the mix with those, areas as well. So it's good to see him get representation on the list too. [01:15:08] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think just in terms of taking, you know, what had been sort of a regional label, in making it national and, sort of getting the kind of deal that he got. I think that's at the bar for a lot of deals to come and, you know, and that, that counts for a ton and, you know, getting involved into all kinds of different things that, you know, you may not even know until you like really take a close look at it, diversifying your portfolio, you know, as a businessman. I mean, I think he's as good at, example of that as anybody. [01:15:37] Dan Runcie: Agreed now we're in the top 5. This is where things get interesting. this 1st, 1, got a big exhale before this 1, co founder of death jam himself. Russell Simmons, where do we start? [01:15:51] Zack Greenburg: Well, you know, I think it's instructive to look through. the different votes here. I mean, well, a lot of people left him out, but you know, a lot of people even emailed caveats to me, like, look, I hate to put him on here, you know, but his impact is undeniable. And he got a bunch of first place votes actually, but I think enough people left him off entirely that, you know, it averaged out to him being, and he was, it's pretty clear that he's in fifth on this list. It's not particularly close in either direction. but yeah, again, you talk about blueprints, right?  Creating Def Jam, like sort of the iconic hip hop record label. And, you know, before all these artists that came along starting their own labels, you know, took a cue from Russell. all the artists that saw him create Fat Farm took a cue in creating clothing lines. And, you know, as time went on and he started getting into all these other different parts of the entertainment world, you know, I think that was something that other artists thought as well, but it's hard to name an artist whose career he's not touched, you know, of the legends that have been around for a couple of decades, you know, especially some of the names that we're going to get to in a minute. So, you know, obviously, can't discount, everything he's done, on the negative side, you know, certainly we've all seen the headlines, but, you know, his impact on the business remains, so significant that a lot of these people, the other voters put them on top and, you know, it's hard to argue his business influence. [01:17:11] Dan Runcie: You can't tell the story of hip hop without including him. You also can't mention him in good practice without acknowledging everything, the good and the bad. One other thing I'll say on the good side was leaning into reality TV shows and things like that early with whether it was, you know, having his family involved with different things on TV, and things like that. I think we were able to see him continue to put himself on with their right. It's like, of course, obviously, as anyone knows, you know, his brothers in run DMC, see the whole family. And then you obviously have even wasn't it like Angela Simmons now, you know, is been able to build her own career as a business woman herself in large part. Thanks to the platform that Russell Simmons was able to build there. So, yeah, I'm glad that he was on the list. I'm also glad we're able to have a full conversation about it. Yeah. Number four, top four is this is where we get into the famous Mount Rushmore, everyone always asks the question. Number four is a combination, but it's for good reason. It's Birdman and Slim, the co founders and leaders of Cash Money Records. [01:18:17] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, we didn't really specify, whether or not you could put people together or not, but so many voters ranked them together. and they're really inextricable. I mean, they are of course, brothers and co founders of cash money. So, it only seemed appropriate to do that. we only did that in one other case, but, you know, but here it made sense, you know, Birdman and Slim, you know, fire and ice, I mean, thunder and lightning, you know, that that's kind of their MO in cash money and, you know, you and I have talked about their dynamic a lot over the years, but, you know, I think similar to master P and taking what had been a regional label in cash money and, you know, extracting this incredible distribution deal from universal getting this huge advance, you know, in the 90s getting, it was $30 million, you know, even in, those days, you know, with inflation would have been, you know, probably at least double that at this point. Plus the ability to own everything going forward and then just their continued ability to stay, you know, you would talk about ownership throughout this list, I mean, those guys have managed maintain control of their catalog and, you know, through some, let's say there have been some disputes as to whether or not they held onto too much of it without distributing it fairly to their artists. But, [01:19:30] Dan Runcie: generous way to put it. [01:19:32] Zack Greenburg: You know, yeah, yeah, we could say, but, I think just the endurance cash money, you know, from the early days and hot boys and little Wayne, you know, coming through to like Drake, Nikki, Wayne, and you know, even if they never put out another hit, they're going to have that catalog to sit back on throwing off like double digit millions every year. So, you know, it's interesting. I mean, I wonder what would have happened if they had sold their label at the peak of the catalog boom a couple of years ago when interest rates were so low. I mean, I think they could have gotten, I mean, I don't know, hundreds of millions of dollars for sure, maybe half a billion. I mean, when you look at some of the numbers being thrown around. Yeah, I don't know about these days, now that things have cooled off a little bit on that front, but there's no denying their influence on the music and the ownership of the music. And you know, they certainly diversified. I think didn't Birdman own like gas stations or oil rigs or something for a hot minute there, but you know, I think it comes down to like, what's a mogul, you know, like a music mogul, a hip hop mogul, you know, for them to have launched and continue to own one of the most successful labels of all time, you know, and to have given so many other people on this list, the platform to start what they did, you know, and then they were pretty clearly ahead of Russell, which is interesting to me. and I think that's probably an effect of some people leaving Russell off, but there's no denying what Birdman and Slim did for the genre. And so, there they are, although some artists might, not be so happy and, you know, understandably. [01:20:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think part of the reason why they may be ahead of Russell in that way is because there's that ownership piece that goes back to it, right? I think we talked about it when we talked about, whether it was Def Jam or one of the other pods that we did, where the fact that Def Jam isn't necessarily owned by its co founders in the same way, but Cash Money is I think made a big of a difference there. And I think With Birdman and slim as well, even if, let's say, there wasn't a whole 2nd chapter of the cash money story like, even if we didn't see the young money to then Drake and Nikki side of it, it's like those, even if you separated those would be 2 ownership stories. In themselves that would have had placement in this list of maybe high up. You clearly saw Master P on this list where a lot of the recognition for Master P was things that he did in that early phase that Cash Money was able to as well. And then you have this whole run from 2007 up until 2018 because that was the last Drake album that came out under Cash Money. So the two hall of fame careers in themselves, it's almost similar to how Tom Brady, it's like, even if you look at everything that he did, you know, the 1st, 3rd of his career, then like the 2nd, 3rd, and like the 3rd, like they're all hall of fame careers in their own, right? [01:22:14] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, and it's interesting too, when you look at sort of the totals of the votes, I mean, some of them, you know, there may be a couple of places in between artists, but there's only, you know, a few votes here, they're separating them. But the voters like really made it clear like there's a obvious top 10 and even within that, you know, the, top six are pretty clear. And then we're about to get into another really clear, the tippy top tier, the top three. So, you know, the voters made their voices known, in a unified sort of way. [01:22:41] Dan Runcie: Agreed. So, yeah, let's get into it. The top 3 was pretty clear. People are probably know the names are probably just wondering what order. So, number 3 is Puff, Did [01:22:50] Zack Greenburg: Can't argue with that. Although he might argue with it. I think, you know, between, Number two and three, it was actually extremely close in vote totals. And, you know, Puff is interesting case like he's on almost every list. but fascinating to me, nobody put him number one, like a lot of people put him number two, like four or five people, but a number two, nobody put him number one. but you know, we've talked about how so many times on this list and on the, you know, podcast, shouldn't be surprised to listeners. That he's up there, but you know, to run through the accomplishments, I mean, to start off, you know, as an intern at Uptown, get fired and, you know, start from scratch basically in your early twenties and to build bad boy. And then off of bad boy, you know, Sean, John and, Ciroc and all the other side brands he's built. I mean, he's a billionaire. I think one of only two current billionaires on this list, although there was a near billionaire and a previous billionaire. But, the longevity, you know, just, just like the sort of like single handedly not single handedly, but really like in some cases, it seemed like he was pulling hip hop up with him into the mainstream, throughout the late 90s and in a time when, you know, the sort of after the Bad Boy, death row feud. you know, we talked about Snoop Dogg and how he was able to get what he did. I mean, it's just as compelling. I think a story, what Puffy did at being so intimately involved in that and so quickly becoming, you know, in the late 90s, arguably the biggest star in the world, and then becoming this incredible, you know, executive first executive, you know, not so much of an artist, but really a businessman first and foremost, over the past, you know, a couple of decades.  It just speaks to him. I like to say Puff is sort of like, he is Richard Branson, if Richard Branson just like happened to rap a little bit, you know, he's a businessman through and through, who happens to have some, you know, artistic ability and you could argue, you know, I would say more on the production side than on the lyrical side, but like, there's no denying data as a mogul if you look him up, you know, yeah, he's gotta be on the Rushmore, Mount Rushmore of any, hip hop mogul list. [01:24:47] Dan Runcie: He has a track record. He has the businesses. The whole thing from the beginning, selling a lifestyle. He learned that as an intern, did it with music, did it in fashion, did it in spirits and he's continued to find ways. And like anyone has had businesses that have succeeded businesses that haven't, but that guy's never going to give up and it's really cool to see people like him and others on this list. Most of the people that made it this far on the list are at least 50 years old or higher. And I don't think that's a coincidence. There's something to be said for the longevity, but I also expect these people, if they're still alive to still be making moves in their seventies, the same way that you see granted hip hop itself is only 50 years old. So you just don't see as much of the longevity there yet, but the same way that. We still see Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett in their 90s still being active players. If these hip hop moguls live as long as they do, hopefully we'll be able to see that too. And I think he's one of them that whatever the circumstances are, we'll always have some hand in the mix. And that's something that's always admirable about Puff. Number two, Dr. I mean, where do you start? You could start with the co founding of Death Row. He clearly learned a lot of the good things that came from Death Row because he was able to then start Aftermath and then create the platform to find Eminem, to then find 50 Cent, two of the most commercially successful artists that we've ever seen in hip hop. And then all that's before Beats by Dre, as we've discussed. On separate conversations, and even in this 1, the most successful hip hop or the largest hip hop business, deal that we've seen and everything that he's just continued to do throughout. I feel is so special. This is a mogul related, but it was so special just to see the Super Bowl performance that it sounds like he had a big hand and just making sure everything was able to work the way that it did. And he got help in many ways with some of that. We're going to get into at the top of the list, but it was really cool to just see everything. And in many ways, it felt like a culmination of everything dre has built in his career. [01:26:55] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think with Dre, it's always quality, not quantity, right? Whether it's bringing up artists, you know, that he's not going to co sign too many of them. But when he does, it's going to be Kendrick or 50 or Eminem. you know, he's not going to create too many products, but when he does, it's going to be beats, right? and you know, he's not going to perform that much, but when he does, it'll be like the halftime show, it'll be the Tupac hologram situation. you know, he is like the mad scientist sort of ethos going on that he sometimes alludes to. you know, he just goes and works and works and works and works and works and gets it perfect and then puts it out in the world and it might take decades. I mean, how many albums, three studio albums, really like three solo albums in his entire career. So like that's Dre. And I think it's interesting, you know, Diddy, is more trial and error. I think, he's out there, like he's willing to let the world see him fail, you know, and see him succeed. And I think Diddy certainly has more successes than Dre, but he has more failures, at least publicly. And, you know, just the idea, I mean, I guess it kind of comes down to beats versus Ciroc. I mean, beats, being, I think more influential at the end of the day in, in creating a category, you know, than just a product. I think Ciroc, it wasn't a category. He did something different with spirits. He kind of like turned vodka into champagne. It's not even really vodka, which is a whole other story, but, whatever it is, he turned it into champagne. And like this could be the art of celebration and all of that, you know, it'll be interesting to see what did he does now, you know, given the state of affairs of Ciroc, but anyway, I mean, back to Dre, you know, again, just like the breadth, the longevity from where he was to where he is, you know, and I think also, looking at Nas, right? Nas did most of what he did in the past 10 years, Dre, you know, from the beginning of Beats about 15 years ago to where he is today. If you take that out, like, yeah, like you said, he's probably still on here, but probably down around. So it's Beats or Pharrell or something like that. just to be able to have vaulted from there number two in 15 years.  And you know, the impact that Beats has even to this day, I think. Yeah, you know, so it's very close. Diddy and Dre. I mean, I don't know, how did you rank? I think I had, Diddy as number two and Dre at three, but that's, you know, I don't know. I was really agonizing over that one. [01:29:06] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I did it too. I had Dre at 6. So, yeah, it was, pretty close there, but yeah, agree with everything you said. And with that, we got to get into the number 1. The business man, not the business man. And you wrote a book about him actually too. If you count three Kings, number one, no surprise Jay Z. [01:29:25] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, that's right. Jay-Z was the clear winner here, know, no surprises. he got the most first place votes out of anybody. He got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, you know, like almost half of the people here put him number one and then there's like a ton of two and three votes. So, you know, yeah, I mean. you could certainly argue, that Puff and Dre, you know, their biggest successes were bigger than Jay Z's biggest success. So rockin and beats, would probably be bigger than any single, deal that Jay Z put together, but just like. The amount of different deals, you know, from the early days and Roc-A-Fella records and rock aware to, you know, to transitioning into being this sort of like mass market power player, the light nation deal, you know, launching do say, and I'm on to Brynjolf and all of that, you know, to have o wnership and to get paid and to continue to be, you know, musically relevant at the same time throughout it all. I mean, yeah, I think, that it's, pretty clear why Jay Z is number one. And, you know, I don't think anybody would really argue with that except for maybe Diddy. [01:30:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, he does the most. I think that you've seen him. You've seen him succeed with ownership. You've seen him succeed with partnerships at the highest levels. We've seen him navigate difficult business relationships. We've seen him make mistakes as well with things that he may be oversaw, but was able to still think through and come out somewhat ahead. Speaking specifically about title and some of the things there, even in the failures, you could still see the through line about why he thought this was the best way to go about things. I think that. Not a surprise. And I think he definitely deserves to be at the top of the list for sure. A hundred percent. [01:31:12] Zack Greenburg: And, you know, as far as looking at everybody's career and who you can kind of learn the most from everybody on here, you can learn something from and, you can learn from their successes, but I think it's also worth looking at what didn't work and how did they respond? You know, and, Jay Z likes to say a loss and a loss, it's a lesson. And, you know, he's out there taking chances and, it doesn't always work. And I think earlier in his career, he only wanted to show you the parts that did work, and now he's kind of willing to, you know, show you the whole package. But, you know, itt certainly helps, when you're married to the biggest star in the world, arguably. but look, I think both of them have been very smart about that relationship and how they leverage it to get into things like they have this big Tiffany's campaign, you know, certainly their real estate portfolio has improved together with, you know, the addition of this, like, I think they just got a 200 million house in Malibu and stuff like that. So, I think with Jay, the way he handles every relationship, every release, it all builds toward the next thing. And, yeah, he's a chess player. He's thinking 10 steps ahead and, you know, it, kind of makes you wonder like, what is his next big step? I know he's, gotten a lot of big paychecks recently selling half of, Armand de Brignac and doing a joint venture there with LVMH, he's got a, huge check, I think around 700 million, for his stake in D'Ussé Cognac. So I'm particularly interested in, you know, what it is that he's kind of building up his war chest, to get next. And, I've heard rumors that it might be in, soccer, or in American football. so we'll see. I mean, it could be any one of those things, but you know, don't be surprised when we check in 50 years, if he's like, you know, Jeff Bezos territory, maybe sooner. [01:32:47] Dan Runcie: and again, the fact that he's been able to help the people around him and make them successful too. He had that line that, song boss with Beyonce on that, album they put out together where he's like, here, we say you're broke if everybody, or here, you're not successful. We say everybody's broke except for you. I know I butchered the line. I forget exactly what it is, but it's something like that. It's It's very similar to the pound cake line that he had had as well. So, at the end of the day, that speaks to his ability to do that. so yeah, this was really fun and it was really interesting to go through the list. And now that we're done with at least that part of the list, now, were there any snubs on your end? I know we talked about a lot of the placement of particular people, but was there anyone, ah, that wasn't on the list that we didn't talk about at all today, that you were like, man, like wish that person had gotten in? [01:33:35] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I thought it was kind of surprising that DJ Khaled wasn't on here. I voted for him. I ranked him fairly highly, you know, I don't see why he would be off, but somebody like TI or even Rick Ross would be on, you know, having this hand in a lot of different things. I think also on a social media perspective, he's been really front of the pack. So, yeah, I would put Khaled up there. I think RZA belongs up here too. some of the things he's done. You know, just like being the mastermind of the Wu Tang Clan period is, you know, kind of mogul, mogul move to kind of like come up with that idea. And, you know, unite all these guys from Staten Island under the banner of Kung Fu and hip hop. It's like, what? They talk about something new and different, you know, and his hand in. And, you know, the secret album, once upon a time in Shaolin and, you know, all the things that that led to, and, you know, hip hop is already collectibles. It's just kind of like debates in the industry. so I think, RZA deserves a look. but, would be the two that kind of stick out to me as, you know, I think probably deserve a spot on here, but, but not quite enough people shared my views here. [01:34:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's a good one. I think to discuss someone that hasn't necessarily came in, I'll talk about 2 people. They're more recent people in the game, but I do think that a lot of people have been inspired by what they've done. 1 is Ghazi and what he's been able to do at empire specifically from a record label perspective. But, you know, we started that at a point where a lot of people didn't even think it was viable to have a business where you were more than a just typical distributor, but you were still offering artists to at least maintain whether it's their masters or have just flexible record contracts where it's like, okay, let's partner on this project. Let's partner on this and we see how fragmented music is now. And I think they were clearly ahead in some ways with that. And I think that works to their advantage too. And similarly, J Cole was someone who got on this list, but I think I'd actually give a shout out to his business partner. And CEO of DreamVille, Eib Hamad and what they've been able to do. They're really trying to bring a platform. And I think in many ways, one of the things that DreamVille is, and other labels have navigated, how do you work to build a platform beyond the breakout star that you have? So that was another name that, that came to mind. [01:35:50] Zack Greenburg: for sure. no, those, all make sense to me as well. [01:35:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and then on this note, I think it was interesting because now that we're reflecting on the list, there's a few trends that I wanted to call out to get your thought on 1 was the placement of producers. And this is a 2 part question because 1, I do think that producers, especially the super producers in hip hop did quite well. If we're looking at this list, just to kind of name through the names. Dr. Dre number 2. Kanye West number 8. Where's Swiss Beats here? We have Pharrell, of course, at 22 and we have Swiss Beats at 27 and I'm probably forgetting a couple of people there. Do you think there's something specific about producers as a job? That makes them either more likely, or that has or any commonality with those folks and why that may line up with their placement on a list like this. [01:36:45] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think a lot of the people who are producers are, you know, some of the time are there because, you know, they didn't quite take off as lyricists the same way. Although some people disagree with this, look at Dre, okay, fine. But like Dre was always a better producer than he was a lyricist. Puff was always a better producer than he was a lyricist. Swizz was always a better producer than he was a lyricist. I mean. You know, you could, hot take, but like, you could argue that with Kanye too, I mean, that's less of a slight to Kanye's lyricism and more of like, just a praise for his production. But think that, you know, when let's say, being a lyricist, isn't your calling card, whether it's production or something else, you have to make yourself viable in other ways. And I think that, especially as a producer, you're often involved, you know, more in the business side and, you know, what are the splits going to look like, who's got the publishing, all of that, you kind of necessarily end up. More in local territory, whereas it's easier maybe to just be a recording artist and to take checks from your label. it's sort of like, you know, kind of comes to the territory more when you're involved in the production side of things. [01:37:47] Dan Runcie: I think that last piece is key because you are more cognizant of the splits. You are a bit of the maestro of making sure everything works out the same way that it does to be able to do that there, which maybe speaks to some of the reason why, you know, you mentioned Cal it as someone that. Probably would have expected to see a little bit higher, although his work as a producer is a little bit different than some of the folks that we mentioned here, but people that are on the younger side that I do think have a lot in common with the folks you mentioned here to be interested to see where will someone like Zaytoven, Metro Boomin, Mike Wilmated, some of the super producers or close to it of the streaming era that we've seen, will we see them be able to make Those moves in the future of the people that I mentioned, I think Metro Boomin is probably the closest there. Of course, he recently sold his catalog. I think that he's someone that seems to move a little bit different. He's releasing his own albums that do have his own beat production there in a way where Mike Will and Zaytoven strike me a little bit more as being purely entrusted in the musical aspect of things. [01:38:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, and I think if we're talking about, you know, younger individuals, who, you know, you might see on this list in 10 years, or maybe even you could have seen them now, but, I think, you know, Travis Scott, and Tyler, the creator are two names that I would point to, Travis Scott, I think probably got dinged for, you know, what happened, you know, at, at his festival. And, you know, that's like kind of a big, you know, impediment for people to throw on the list. But, you know, those kinds of concerns didn't. It stopped them from listing other folks who had some pretty serious, you know, kind of like moral, asterisks around, around their names. So I think what Travis has done with Cactus Jack, You know, he was really on the, sort of on the Kanye path from a commercial perspective and, you know, let's see how it goes with this new utopia rollout. But yeah, I think people have kind of a short memory and are willing to move on. And, you know, he could be back in the conversation again soon. And I think Tyler, the creator too. I mean, I think he's another one, you know, whether it's music festivals or, clothing, you know, he's definitely got a hand in. a bunch of really interesting different businesses and, you know, maybe part of it, maybe he ends up more like in the Pharrell kind of position where it's not necessarily quite as mainstream, but it's, widely respected and, you know, lucrative and popular. So I could see the two of them moving up here in years to come. [01:40:13] Dan Runcie: And Tyler too is unique because he spoke to an audience of fans and people that weren't being spoken to in that same type of way, right? Everyone else is trying to speak to the aspirational cool person. Tyler said himself, he was reaching the outcasts. He was reaching the people that would go on late night runs to Taco Bell and stuff like that. And that was an audience that hip hop mainstream hip hop was reaching. So I think that speaks a lot to his success there. So, final question here, which I think is a good one and you posted right before we started recording this mogul list is very representative in a lot of ways of who the greatest artists are that happened to be successful in business. And the question was up to interpretation in many ways. But if you were picking a team or a few people, whether it's people we've mentioned or people we haven't mentioned to run your mogul empire. Who would make your list? Let's say if there's 3 to 4 names that come to mind of who would make your list, who would it be? [01:41:13] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think the boring answer is Jay Z, and that's probably, you know, most people's answer because that's why, you know, he got so many first place votes, but, you know, looking through the top 20, I mean, there are a lot of people who would not want running my mogul empire, but, you know, if I had to pick three, let's say out of the top 20, or maybe even the whole list, I think, I'd probably go like Jay, Lyor, and Sylvia Robinson, because they all just get shit done one way or the other. They're all individually brilliant, creative, Machiavellian, you know, like, they all kind of like pushed the line on a lot of things, but they didn't cross it fully, in my opinion, at least compared to some of the other people, on the list, you know, at least in a, like, something is illegal kind of way, you know, or I guess anywhere you look there's always these debates, but I think that all three exhibit a certain level of, you know, in different degrees, like you need something done. They're going to get it done. You're not worried that they're going to let their ego get in the way, you know, they could be the star or it could be the Jordan or the Pippin. and they have the talent to get it done, you know, no matter what it is that you need done. So I probably go with those three as my top. What about you? [01:42:23] Dan Runcie: I feel like we have a similar minded list. So I would have Sylvia Robinson as the board chair. I want someone that can control those stakeholders, make sure that we're good and also just keep a good eye and keep the company in check as well. I would want Jay to be president of the company because I think as president, it's good to have someone that. Can be a bit of the public salesperson can get the right amount of support for buy in can be included in particular sales pitches for an actual CEO. I'll take Lyor again. I think the shrewdness, the no fucks given in a lot of ways. But still having a calling card to be able to get people aligned with is important. And I'll take, Steve Stout is my CMO and I'll have Jay Prince as a special advisor to help address any of the issues or anything like that. that's the dream team. [01:43:11] Zack Greenburg: I like that. I like that one. Yeah. [01:43:14] Dan Runcie: All right. Well, Zack, anything else, that we should mention before we close things out on the hip hops, 50 greatest mogul list. [01:43:22] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, you know, I think it's interesting to reflect in the context of hip hop's 50th anniversary. And, you know, when you look at sort of some of the pioneers, who started it all, you know, really there aren't any other than Sylvia who were there at the very beginning. And even then you could argue, you know, she came kind of five years late. So, you know, I hope that over the, you know, over the rest of the year, some of these folks do start to get their flowers in the mainstream in a way that they haven't before. You know, whether it's Herc or Flash or, you know, some of the other people, Kaz, who are sort of around Grand Wizard Theodore, you know, some people like that who haven't gotten maybe quite their due. So, you know, I would look for that, through the year. And that's kind of a hope of mine. And, you know, I mean, yeah, none of them really got to be. Let's say, they didn't get to partake in the spoils in the way that some of the people who came in a later did. So that, that would be my one, final thought as we head into this rest of the summer of celebration of the 50th anniversary. [01:44:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I'm excited. I think it was great to be able to use as an opportunity to reflect, to be able to highlight and think more broadly about it. There's been so many different types of 50, this 50, that list, and I'm sure we'll see more of them as well. I think that this 1 is a bit unique because of all the factors that we brought into and how varied the list was and how we brought more people into this process, as opposed to just having, of course, there's a form of this. That was just you and I talking it out and making sure that where we thought things made sense, but it was really good to be able to include some of the pioneers and some of the leaders themselves in this. So with that salute to hip hop and everything that is created, and obviously you and I being able to have work in this industry as well. So shout out, know, it's a privilege and honor to be able to contribute and offer something like this. [01:45:07] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Privilege and honor indeed. So, yeah, it's a lot of fun and good to get, you know, good to be able to look back a little bit. [01:45:13] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. [01:45:15] Zack Greenburg: All right, Dan, have a good one. [01:45:16] Dan Runcie: You too. [01:45:17] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast. Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. August 11, 2023 is the 50th anniversary of hip-hop. What started out mostly as a spoken word artform has become a worldwide juggernaut. Thanks to the moguls who pushed the genre forward, hip-hop went from 0 to 100.


In this episode, we rank the 50 greatest moguls in hip-hop’s history. We reached out to industry experts — from artists to execs to media personalities — to help us compile the list. Friend of the pod, Zack O’Malley Greenburg, joins me to count them down from No. 50 to No. 1



0:39 How do we define “mogul”

7:06 Honorable mentions

09:10 The “Don’t overlook their influence” group (ranks 50-41)

16:19 The “Playing chess not checkers” group (ranks 40-31)

23:38 The “Our impact runs deep” group (ranks 30-21)

33:47 No. 20

35:37 No. 19

37:56 No. 18

41:32 No. 17

44:27 No. 16

47:21 No. 15

51:22 No. 14 

55:55 No. 13

59:09 No. 12

1:00:46 No. 11

1:02:16 No. 10

1:04:39 No. 9

1:06:44 No. 8

1:10:20 No. 7

1:14:06 No. 6

1:15:37 No. 5

1:17:11 No. 4

1:20:53 No. 3

1:29:06 No. 2

1:30:34 No. 1

1:33:22 Who got snubbed?

1:35:42 What trends stick out from the list?

1:41:21 Who would you pick to run your empire?



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Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog

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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Zack Greenburg: ownership. Was just such an important thing for Nipsey. Such an important thing for Berner. And, you know, interviewing the two of them, I would say, their mindset around ownership was the closest I've ever seen to Jay Z.

[00:00:13] Dan Runcie Intro Audio: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:39] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: This episode is a celebration to hip hop's 50th anniversary. This is a countdown on the 50 greatest moguls ever in hip hop. I'm joined by Zack O'Malley Greenburg, friend of the pod, and we both reached out to. A bunch of label heads, executives, people in hip hop that would know best. And we put it together in an aggregate list.

And we're here to break down that list today. We talk about what does it mean to be a mogul? What are some of the considerations we made when we were looking into this list ourselves, how the results looked, what surprised us? What were the snubs? What were the misses? And what can we learn from this overall?

And if Zack and I were putting together our dream teams, what would that look like? This is a lot of fun. Really happy with how it turned out. So let's dive in.

[00:01:25] Dan Runcie: All right, hip hop's 50th anniversary is right around the corner and we decided to celebrate it in the only way that we know best countdown hip hop's greatest moguls and I'm joined by Zack O'malley Greenburg, who reached out to me about this. I was really excited about it and we spent some time over the past couple of weeks, reaching out to people we know, making sure that we have the best insights looking through and making sure that we had all of the. Breakdowns to share. So Zack, I'm ready for this. How are you feeling?

[00:01:55] Zack Greenburg: I am stoked. Yeah, I mean, you know, 50th anniversary of hip hop. We reached out to 50 different judges. amongst, you know, the sort of, the most respected folks from, you know, label heads to artists to entrepreneurs, you know, I think we've got half of them, roughly half of them replied since in their votes, we're going to keep their individual votes anonymous, but, you know, Dan could tell you about some of the judges.

Yeah, and it was just really fun to kind of mix it up, you know, I think the thing about this list, a lot of these characters are just kind of an apples to oranges comparison as you'll see once we dive into it, but that's the beauty of it, right? I mean, how do you, you know, compare like a pioneering executive to like a modern day artist mogul? And we really kind of left it in the hands of the judges. And we just said, basically the only guidance was, this is a business focused list, but you know, you can rank artists, executives, people who are both. It just, whatever your definition of mogul is, that's how, you know, that's how you should rank them. And people submitted lists and obviously the higher they rank somebody, the more points we gave them and, you know, the lower they got, but, you know, so there's some people on there who are like accumulators. They ended up on everybody's list, but not so high, but, you know, as a result, they ended up on the top 50.

And then there are some who were just like, not ranked at all by most people, but had a couple of really high ranks so that they made the list. So I think it's a pretty cool mix.

[00:03:10] Dan Runcie: Right? It's kind of like how we look at artists. There's some artists that have just been consistent, steady through and through each year. You'll always get some reliable output from them, but then there are other artists too. They were the best for a certain amount of time. Maybe they cooled off for a bit.

Maybe they came back and that's kind of the way music is too. One of the things that. I was asked whenever I was reaching out to people about this was the same thing that you posed earlier. People wanted to know, how are we defining mogul and we left it up to their interpretation. It is a term that means different things to different people, but maybe for the sake of this conversation, let's kick it off here.

Zack, how do you define mogul? And how did you define it when creating your list?

[00:03:51] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, to me a hip hop mogul, more general is just, you know, somebody who not only is a business person, but has some degree of ownership, in whatever it is that they're doing. that's not the only definition of it for me, but like, you know, when I was putting together my rankings, I thought, you know, who are the owners?

the same time, you know, people who are executives who are in a decision making place. you know, that counts for something. And I think also, you know, if you're an artist, and you simply have some control over your own work, you maintain your copyrights, whatever, like that counts as being a mogul.

 So, you know, specifically when it comes to hip hop, you know, I'd say people who are, you know, definitely getting in charge of your own work, but also creating new lines of business, you know, influencing the culture. but you know, a way that they've got some skin in the game from a business perspective, you know, that, kind of thing.

That's kind of how I looked at it. but you could see from the votes that, you know, everybody had a slightly different definition too.

[00:04:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, there was definitely a lot of correlation with the artists who tend to be the ones that are the wealthiest. They end up at the highest rankings in on some of those lists, too, but it wasn't exactly correlated because there's a difference. And these are some of the things I kept in mind, too, with the mogul definition, thinking specifically about

influence and impact, were you having, or did you create opportunities for others around you? Were you able to be a bit of a kingmaker or queenmaker in your respective right? Was there a impact in terms of other generations that either looked and modeled how they're doing what they're doing and looking at you as some form of inspiration with that?

So there's the indirect impact and influence, but also the, Indirect piece of it too. So there's the money piece as well, but then what do you do with that money? And then that's how I had went about it. And similarly, everyone had their own unique spin to it.

[00:05:42] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And, you know, and I think the definition changed over time, of what a mogul really is, but when I was putting my rankings together, I think the idea of starting something new, you know, that's also paramount, amongst all the criteria as well.

[00:05:55] Dan Runcie: Right? So, of course, Zack and I had our list, but we reached out to a number of people and several other label heads, executives, and people that are in the game.

So thank you all to your contributions. We couldn't have done this without you. And if anything, it helped add a variety beyond just you and I, getting and putting our list out there. It added a more full scope and like anything. Oh, this is how you look at it. Interesting and being able to pull unique insights there.

[00:06:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. you know, one thing I think we probably ought to point out, on the list, you know, the list is, heavily male. but it's about only 20% women on the list. you know, we did everything we could obviously to make it more equitable, but, you know, the votes are the votes.

And, you know, I think there is a bit of a reflection of sort of the state of affairs over the past half century, you know, unfortunately, like many parts of music business, hip hop has been, you know, heavily overindexing for males. So, you know, here's hoping that when 50 years to do a hundred years of hip hop, you know, we'll have even things out a bit or completely, let's say maybe even, you know, made up for lost time, but I think some of the spots on the list, you know, the rankings do kind of reflect an industry reality that we've seen, unfortunately for 50 years.

[00:07:06] Dan Runcie: Right? And hopefully this gets better. We do feel and you'll see when we talk about some of the people here, glad about some of the names that got mentioned. Of course, there's always room to be able to have more and hopefully for hip hop's 100th anniversary. If when and people are breaking that down, there's hopefully even more representation there.

So, with that, I think it's probably good for us to get started right before the list, but talk about some of the honorable mentions. So, there were people that didn't quite make the cut of 50, but we still wanted to highlight them and the work that they. Did here. So a few of those names here to give a shout out to.

So we have Cindy Campbell, Jermaine Dupree, Audrey Harrell, Jay Cole, Damon John. What comes or what do you think about when you hear those names?

[00:07:55] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, you know, I mean, Cindy Campbell, I think in many ways you could look at her as the first promoter in hip hop history, right? I mean, you know, we're talking about 50 years of hip hop. That's 50 years from that first party that. She and DJ Kool Herc through, you know, in the rec room on Cedric Avenue.

And, I think the idea was that they were going to raise a little bit of cash so she could go get herself a new back to school wardrobe. Now, if that's not, you know, entrepreneurship and hip hop, you know, from the very beginning, I don't know what it is. And so I think Cindy deserves a ton of credit, for being there at the very beginning, you know, but I think on the honorable mentions to a lot of the folks that are on here, you know, or maybe like a little bit, you know, not exactly falling on the same radar, you know, for the list. So like, you know, Damon John, obviously he did with, you know, creating FUBU and, you know, everything he's done as an entrepreneur, it's incredible, but it, I think it's sort of like more of a national brand that is, you know, apart from hip hop and so is his personality, right? Like you see him on shark tank or, you know, whatever, like he sort of moved past, I wouldn't necessarily categorize him, as just hip hop, although he's had a tremendous impact on hip hop.

So I think probably that's why, he wasn't on more lists. It's not to sort of ding him his impact, which is considerable.

[00:09:10] Dan Runcie: Right, and I do think that of course, music is one element of hip hop. You do have fashion, you do have others. So music definitely got weighted heavily in this list, but Dave and John and his influence in fashion, and there's other people in fashion and we'll get into them in this list too, but we can't overlook everything he did there and some of the more unique and clever marketing tactics that came from food booth that other people did who will mention in this list as well. 1 person that I do want to highlight here from that list 2 people. So, Jermaine Dupri want to give him a shout out as well. Just everything he was able to do with.

So, so Def records. He was part of that movement in the 90s, where you saw LaFace and then all these other groups in the South be able to come up, do their own. There was a so so deaf sound, a so so Def vibe and his ability to do it both in rap, but also have a bit of the soul there. Some of the epic production that he's been involved with, even outside of hip hop, thinking about albums like Mariah Carey's Emancipation of Mimi and others, even though he didn't always do everything in hip hop. I think that some of his influence can't go overstated there. And then the second person who's similar in that regard, I would say is Andre Harrell. We talked about him in past episodes, especially the bad boy one, but everything that he did from Uptown Records and then moving on to Motown Records and gave in many ways helped give Puff the blueprint for what he was able to do years later.

[00:10:37] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think Andre had a lot of successes, also had a lot of failures, not necessarily, you know, through his own doing, the time, but definitely somebody who deserves, you know, a hat tip at the very least. And, you know, I'm sure Puff would agree about that too.

[00:10:52] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Agreed. All right. We ready ready to get into it.

[00:10:57] Zack Greenburg: Let's do it.

[00:10:58] Dan Runcie: All right. So in the initial group here, which we're calling the don't overlook their influence group. This is people who are ranked 50 through 41. so in order we have Ethiopia have to Marion at 50. She was the former CEO of Motown. We have Top Dog, co founder and CEO of Top Dog Entertainment. We have Mona Scott Young from her work at Violators and more recently Love Hip Hop. And what she also has done with Hip Hop Homicides and some other multimedia projects. We have T.I. with everything he's done with Grand Hustle and Multimedia. We have Eazy E with Priority Records. Many ways pioneering so much of the stuff we saw.

We have Todd Moskowitz, L. A. Reed, Craig Kalman, former CEO from Atlantic. We have Sylvia Roan and then tied for 40. We have Desiree Perez and Steve Stout. What are your thoughts on that group list?

[00:11:55] Zack Greenburg: Oh, man, I don't know. Maybe we should just pick out a few here and there that we thought were particularly interesting. I mean, you know, I think Ethiopia is a good example of somebody who would be higher up if she were identified, you know, solely as a, you know, as a hip hop mogul, but she's had kind of like a pretty wide reach, you know, especially in R and B, and pop. I mean, some of the stuff she's done with Erykah Badu, NeYo, Stevie Wonder, you know, like over the years, you know, wouldn't be classified as hip hop, but it's worth it nonetheless. just think that, you know, being kind of like in between, in between genres, you know, resulted in her being down a little bit further on the list.

But, you know, somebody who had a tremendous impact. you know, I would also, I would highlight TI here, you know, the self proclaimed King of the South, but, you know, in terms of, I remember the years when, you know, we were putting together the Forbes list and, you know, kind of looking at, you know, kind of regionally who is most important to me.

Yeah, he was sort of like. The Jay Z of the South. And he was really, especially when he was having that moment, you know, getting a lot of songs on, you know, national radio and, kind of being in the public eye, I mean, had a tremendous business focus, you know, he was always interested in sort of like, what's the next thing that I can create?

and you know, that kind of entrepreneurial energy, you know, I think, especially within the context of the South, like taking the blueprint, from guys like Jay Z, you know, I think he certainly deserves a mention. I kind of thought he'd end up higher here, but I guess he's been, not as, especially in the music front lately.

and then I would definitely highlight, Desiree, you know, she's somebody who's been behind the scenes for a really long time, with Jay Z and rock nation, but like. she runs rock nation. And although Jay Z obviously has the final say in things, you know, a lot of things that you see, come out of that camp are, you know, her doing and have her fingerprints all over them.

And I know some of y'all might have seen the Book of Hove exhibit at the Brooklyn Museum or the Brooklyn Public Library that was a Desiree Perez production and, you know, she said that it was like her emptying her 80, 000 square foot storage unit into the library, but, you know, but to have, you know, that kind of, impact at a place like Roc Nation and to help, you know, Jay Z do what he's done, you know, I think those are all worthy, of notation and, you know, I think she deserves her spot there for sure.

[00:14:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah, Desiree is someone that has been working with Jay Z for a while now, and I feel like she deserved a shout out on Jay's verse in Pound Cake, the Drake song. You know where he's like, Dave made millions, Lyor made millions. I feel like Desiree should have gotten a shout out there too, but yeah.

I'm glad that she got mentioned here. Two other names I'll run through quickly. Steve Stout, someone who I thought would have ended up higher, and I know that, you know, it was interesting to see how the results played out, but I do think that one of the best marketers that we've seen come through hip hop.

He was ahead of the curve in a number of ways, dating back to the 90s with seeing the men in black sunglasses and everything that he's done there from his time working with Nas, everything that they've done, whether it was the firm or, him being a record executive himself and then showing as well, how he's able to do it in advertising and bringing a lot of these companies and brands that didn't necessarily align or think about being related with, you know, hip hop culture and those elements to be able to do it.

You look at a company like State Farm and how we now look at what that company has done. And a lot of that is through his work and obviously with what he's done at United Masters. So shout out there and I also do want to give a shout out to Mona Scott Young mentioned her earlier, but she was a right hand to someone who will mention on the list as well coming up soon with everything she did in Violator, this is back when, you know, Q Tip and Busta Rhymes and that whole crew were doing their thing. And then later, I know people have a lot of polarizing opinions about love and hip hop, but if you look at the career opportunities that were created for people that have came through, and the longevity that she's granted, a lot of people that the record industry forgot about that she was able to continue to give opportunities for think about the trick daddies, Trina's and folks like that. I know people hate to see them arguing on camera, but would we have Cardi B where she is today? If it weren't for the platform of love and hip hop, and she's continued to do things with other vocals on the list that we'll get into. So I do want to give a shout out to her

[00:16:08] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, definitely a worthy shout out. And we could probably go on and on about even just like the tent in this bracket here, but I suppose we ought to, we ought to move on to the next room before, before we run

[00:16:19] Dan Runcie: indeed. Yep. So the next group is playing chest, not checkers. So at 39, we have Dave Mays, founder of the source 38. We have Irv Gotti, founder of Murder, Inc. 37, Cardi B 36, Lil Wayne 35, Nipsey Hussle, 34. Steve Rifkin, from Loud Records 33, Missy Elliot. 32 Birder from Cookies, 31 Kevin Lyles and 30 Chris Lighty.

[00:16:47] Zack Greenburg: Oh man, this is a pretty stacked bracket, I must say. I think that, you know, there are a couple of names that stick out to me here. I'm going to go with Nipsey and Berner, because in a funny way, I think, they have like a sort of a similar, a sort of similar strategy, which is like, you have a very clear idea of what it is that you're going to do.

You own it, and then you, you know, you continue to own it like ownership. Was just such an important thing for Nipsey. Such an important thing for Berner. And, you know, interviewing the two of them, I would say, their mindset around ownership was the closest I've ever seen to Jay Z. and they really understood from the beginning that they had to own all their music.

Own all of their branding own, you know, the companies that create on the side and then they can monetize it later. And, you know, with Nipsey rest in peace. I mean, he was just on the cusp of, of kind of like becoming a mainstream superstar, you know, when, his life ended all too soon. So, I think what Berner is doing with cookies is really fascinating like Berner is, you know, you want to talk, lists. I mean, he's in the top five, probably the top four or three at this point, in terms of net worth for actual, hip hop artists. And that's because of the success of cookies and, you know, there's been, a lot of ups and downs in the cannabis business lately, but like the amount of ownership that he has, you know, I think it amounts to about one third still of cookies, which is, you know, a billion dollar brand. When we gets legalized, you know, like he's going to see the fruits of his labor and, that focus on ownership I think is really going to pay off on the longterm.

So I would highlight those two guys, in this tier as the ones that, I think were the most impressive to me. That's not to shade anybody else, but,

[00:18:25] Dan Runcie: Yeah, those two guys are also two of the few people who I see people still wearing their merchandise on a regular basis. Granted, I live in San Francisco. There's a cookie store here. So, I mean, I know there is a local connection for sure, but same with Nipsey Hussle. I mean, sadly, it's now been over 4 years since he passed away, and you still see Crenshaw shirts.

He understood, Nipsey especially, understood exactly where everything's going. And it's just so sad that, you know, it was gone so soon. Two names, I'm going to shout out here. I'm going to shout. I'm going to shout out Cardi B and I want to shout out Chris Lighty. So Cardi B talked about her a little with the Mona Scott young piece, but she's entered and ran her rap career more uniquely than other artists that we've seen at her level have. And I think that speaks a lot to just where the game is now. It's been over six years since Bodak Yellow came out. And it's been over five years now since her debut album. This is someone who hasn't put out a studio album in over five years.

And hasn't gone on tour in a traditional way, but it's still doing her thing. And I think this is one of the things that's unique. She finds interesting ways to monetize herself and to put herself on. She's like, Hey, I can do these private shows and they're going to pay me, you know, 1. 5 million or 3 million just to do a half an hour set.

I'm going to do my thing. I'm going to be there at Super Bowl weekend. I may not be performing at the Super Bowl, but I'm going to go do these private shows for Bob craft or the fanatics event or all these things and collect the checks. it's very interesting to see younger artists to do that Lionel Richie playbook, but she is like, Hey, I don't necessarily have to do that. And even though people always do try to, you know, loop her into the Nicki Minaj versus Cardi B beef, she still has lended her hand and extended it to other young artists, especially women in the game, whether it's Ice Spice and others, whether she's doing it through her talents and others. So she's someone that I hope as she continues on, you know, into her thirties and into her forties can continue to rise up this list.

And then Chris Lighty talked about a little bit with Mona Sky Young, co founder of Violator and everything they're able to do there. Sad that he was taken away so soon, but if you have not heard this yet and if you haven't listened to the podcast, I highly recommend the Mogul podcast series that was done several years ago on it.

It was done by Reggie Yose, who is Combat Jack, who has since passed away as well, but I highly recommend that if you want a full breakdown on everything Chris Leite did. Violator and after that was truly one of the early ones looking at product partnerships and a lot of the things that we see now that are common in hip hop.

[00:21:07] Zack Greenburg: And, you know, if we didn't have Chris Lighty, I don't think we would have had 50 Cent. I mean, at least not to the extent that we have him. you know, I mean, I remember writing my first story about 50 and like for Forbes, maybe 2008 and sitting down with Chris and just kind of like hearing him lay out the plan.

And again, it's the emphasis on ownership, right? you know, Chris Leidy, I think was the one who really pushed, 50 to take the equity in vitamin water and his parent company, rather than just do an endorsement. And, you know, obviously that became a huge, deal and really like a model for so much, not only of hip hop, but like other parts of the entertainment industry, you know, I think Chris definitely deserves a spot, maybe even should be a little higher. and you know, probably also, there's, you know, again, all these folks deserve a shout out, but Kevin Lyles, I think is, got one of the most inspirational stories. you know, it's another person, I think we've both interviewed a bunch of times, but, you know, just his journey from intern to president of Def Jam and I think seven years. And he just did it by working harder than everybody else like he wasn't an artist that got put there because he had some hit, it wasn't some kind of like nepotism deal, you know, he just outworked everybody and, you know, he had the talent and, you know, the horsepower to just like get it done. And to make that journey within seven years. So I think it's, for people who are listening and, you know, want to do something like that with their own career, you know, study Kevin Miles because he was able to make it, without being, you know, some kind of like preternatural, singing talent or something like that he just did it on smarts and work ethic.

[00:22:39] Dan Runcie: And one of the few people that co founded a record label and sold it a decade later for hundreds of millions of dollars, which is what he did 300 as well. Right? So of course, not 300 now underwater, but everything he did with Lyor and Todd, there, is impressive. There's not that many black founders in general. In tech, any sector that have built and exited companies for several hundred, a million dollars, the way that he was able to be a part of that. So, hats off

him.

[00:23:09] Zack Greenburg: yeah, I think it takes a special kind of guts to be able to, you know, I mean, he was a well paid executive with a cushy music job, you know, to leave that world, start your own thing. I mean, I know they had, you know, big backers and everything, but like to take a risk once you've already experienced that level of success and to go out and start something, you know, as opposed to starting something from scratch when you have nothing anyway.

I mean, it, takes a lot of gumption to do that. So, you know, again, yes, a pretty cool second act for Kevin miles.

[00:23:38] Dan Runcie: Indeed, the next group here, our impact runs deep. It is Nicki Will Smith at 28, Swiss beats 27, LL Cool J, 26, Coach K and P, 25, Julie Greenwald, 24. The E40 23, Pharrell 22, and Rick Ross, 21.

[00:24:01] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I think, that's a pretty strong, deck there. And I think also, you know, here, you find some people who, you could argue should be higher or lower based on, you know, how much of their career was done in the hip hop music world, right? Like Queen Latifah, LL Cool J, Will Smith.

Obviously those are huge crossover acts. but I think they all got a lot of points from some of the voters because, you know, that is in one way, the measure of a mogul, like you're diversifying your portfolio and whether that's by owning different things or, you know, by getting into, different types of performance, you know, on the silver screen, I think that's a viable path too.

but just from like a purely musical entrepreneurial perspective, I would highlight, Swiss Beats and Pharrell, who I think, you know, the two of them are more influential than anybody in terms of like, I'd say Swizz in terms of art and Pharrell in terms of fashion. and you know, some of the things they've done around those two areas and, you know, Pharrell certainly, now with LVMH, but also before with Ice Cream, Billionaire Boys Club, you know, he was very active in starting his own things on the fashion side.

And, you know, kind of inspiring artists to do that. you know, would we have had a Yeezy if we hadn't had Pharrell, you know, doing what he was doing and, you know, and even doing what he did with Adidas? you know, I don't know about that. And, Swiss beads certainly, you know, not only from the art side of things, but you know, it's a really impressive art collection.

I did a story on him a few years ago and, you know, he's got like, Jeff Kuhn sculptures and Basquiat's and Warhol's and his, you know, like in his foyer. I mean, it's, pretty impressive stuff. but the way that he moves behind the scenes, as sort of like a corporate brand whisperer, at places, you know, like Bacardi, Lotus, you know, this goes on, you know, I think he, he's sort of like more quietly

influential than, some folks realize. And, you know, certainly has been earning, on par with, you know, with all the, you know, most of the names, if not higher than most of the names we've mentioned so far. and you know, what he's done on the, both of them, what they've done on the production side, also hard to top.

So that must count for something as well. I kind of went more than one shout out there, didn't I? So

[00:26:06] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, that was good. That was good.

I'm glad you mentioned the two of them though, because if you didn't, I probably would've called the other one out. The thing about Swiss as well, everything that he's done with versus specifically also embodies this idea and definition of a mogul because he was able to be.

A kingmaker in the sense of creating opportunities for others. He did that through the equity that he was able to give all of those early participants in versus in trailer itself. And then additionally, with the careers that we're able to have a boost because of. everything that happened, with the matchups from versus specifically, you look at someone like Ashanti, who is now doing tours and pop it up every now and then she wasn't doing that before her versus and her battle versus Keisha Cole was one of the not, if not the most watched one that we've had.

You look at Jadakiss and everything that he's been able to do since his epic showdown against, with Lox versus Dipset with that versus you look at Jeezy versus Gucci Mane. I know that versus definitely had its peak popularity during the pandemic, but that kind of stuff that he was able to do with Timbaland, I think also speaks so much to everything that he's been able to do there.

And another person I want to mention to that was in this group as well that I think is similar is LL Cool J because I think similar to the way that. Swiss beets is Ella is also with someone that's been involved with multimedia with everything from the jump. He was the 1st artist to truly breakthrough from Def Jam and did it as a teenager.

So, of course, he gets plenty of shout out for that, but he's also always been trying to find ways to look out for that next generation of artists. And he's been doing some of that more recently with rock the bells, and that's its own. Company and entity now where they have a festival coming up as well to celebrate things that are happening with hip hops anniversary.

So it's been cool to see him do things as well. And I'll give a very brief shout out here to, coach K and P because they, similar to how I mentioned, Kevin Liles were able to build and grow a company and then sell it for, I believe, forget the exact sale price for, quality control. But they were able to do that thanks in part to a lot of the work that Ethiopia had done, helping to give quality control, the platform that it did, and especially in an era where I think it's harder for a record label to have a true brand, they were able to help give it a boost.

[00:28:36] Zack Greenburg: That's true. And on that note of labels, I think Julie Greenwald, there's a mention, you know, she and Craig Kalman, who's mentioned, in an earlier grouping, you know, run Atlantic together. And there's a lot of, of music that we wouldn't have seen if it had been for the two of them, you know, running the show over there.

So, shout out to Julie. I mean, the only one actually we haven't discussed here with E40 and Rick Ross. And I don't know, you know, probably get moving, but, do you think Rick Ross deserves to be number 21 on this entire list? Like ahead of Pharrell, ahead of, you know, some of the other names on here. I was surprised that he was ranked this high.

[00:29:09] Dan Runcie: I love the spicy questions. Cause this is what people wanted to hear the podcast about, right? They wanted to hear one of us, you know, poke the bear a little bit.

If Rick Ross was able to nail that dive in the pool, do you think you would have ranked him higher?

[00:29:21] Zack Greenburg: Ha ha ha ha ha ha. No, no, I wouldn't. I mean, I still know. I mean, you know, like I get it, you know, he's called the boss that he must be a mogul, You know, and, some of the things he's done in terms of, you know, Bel Air and Maybach music and all that. Sure. But like, you know, when you put them up against like some of the other ones, did he really do something new or was he more just like following a, blueprint that had worked for others before and, you know, executing it to a degree success, but like, again, not, you know, not to the level of, let's say Pharrell.

I think maybe I just, I'm salty that he ended up ahead of Pharrell. I think Pharrell is just way more influential and Mowgli, but, I don't know. What do you think?

[00:29:59] Dan Runcie: So, I've read 2 of Ross's books and I interviewed him once on Trapital. I think that, to your point, he did follow the blueprint that we saw from others. I think he is smart about the types of partnerships he does, but it does feel like a ditty light. Type of playbook that he's been able to do and build.

And I do think a lot of it makes sense. He may not necessarily have the large media entities the way that he does. Although I do think he's overdue for some type of comedy show or some type of reality show just following him around because I think he's hilarious. And anytime that he gets that, it could just generate something unique.

And I'm sure he's been hit up about it. I do think that he's done well for himself. Just thinking about. Now, how his career is growing, I think it's been what, 16, 17 years since hustling 1st came out. I think in this range, there is some flexibility there in terms of like, where people are in certain ways.

I get why he may not necessarily be as high. I'm sure if you looked at the net worth or the earnings, that some of the people that are lower than him may actually be higher. I think 1 of the knocks potentially is although Maybach music was cool. I wrote about this in Trapit as well. I think there was a missed opportunity.

And part of that comes from, huh, did Ross do all the things that he probably could have done from a leadership perspective to especially like, when Meek Mill and Wally were beefing and stuff. And I think Ross had a bit more of a laissez faire approach to things, which in some ways is kind of the opposite of King making as we're talking about this, right?

Can we really bring folks together and make something larger than it is. I think it was a bit tough in general for people to try to do everything themselves, try to be the boss of this label, which is signed to a different label because Rick Ross was signed to a different label than MNG was himself. And I think anytime you have that type of dynamic, it's just splitting the leadership interests. So I hear you.

[00:32:00] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. So then how much of a mogul are you, if your label is really, you know, so I guess everybody's labels on somebody else's label and have you distributed by something, but you know, it's like when they're like multiple labels kind of, you know, intertwined with your label, it kind of causes the question.

are you really the boss? If you have several bosses that you're answering to, but you know, I think actually though. in Rick Ross's defense, what he's done with Wingstop, I mean, that is pretty unique and, I don't know that anybody else on this list has something comparable in that space.

So, you know, maybe that's why, I think, you know, by virtue of that, you could put them pretty high up. And maybe that's what some of the judges were thinking, you know, but he also ended up on a lot of lists, you know, so some of the judges just kind of like, maybe we're getting to some of the judges sent rank lists, and they're like, you know, this person is the top and they should get the most points and other people were like, here are my people.

And you can just rank them evenly. and I think Rick Ross ended up on a lot of those lists. So, you know. I think again, maybe like I was alluding to earlier, he's a bit of a compiler, nothing wrong with that, you know, you can get into the hall of fame by compiling 3000 hits, but, it's interesting to see how, how the opinions differ. That's the whole fun of it.

[00:33:06] Dan Runcie: He runs his business is almost like how a small business owner would in a number of ways where he has a bunch of car washes and, you know, his is 1 of the family members does that he has his wing stops, right? He has that. And it is a bit of this, like, mogul dumbness from that perspective in terms of like, okay, I have my hands in these things and I've hired people to have, you know, different roles within that that doesn't necessarily have things in aggregate. It's a bit more of the strip mall mentality as opposed to the, you know, building a skyscraper that could then build other skyscrapers, but it's something worth mentioning, but I hope we keep that up with a few of the other rankings we have coming up as we dig into the top 20, here.

So, yeah, let's start with 20. So, 20, Queen Latifah, I think that she and, Ice Cube, who we'll get into in a minute, were one of the first that noticed, hey, I may not be able to do this rap thing forever, what are areas that I can expand this multimedia empire and everything I'm building.

She was able to do this with Living Single, the show that was Friends before Friends was, and even the way that she was able to show young black people that were having, you know, highly sought after roles, but they still had their interpersonal dynamics. It was cool. It was refreshing. It was aspirational, which I do think that a lot of the black sitcoms were in the 90s.

And she was able to do that, continue finding ways to put other people on as well through the work that she did. She was also willing to take risks. Like I remember when she was in set it off, people had a bunch of questions about, Oh, you're going to play a lesbian in this heist movie. What is this going to do for your career?

And she was willing to do that. And I think she is always, you know, be willing to take risks. So, you know, shout out to her and I'm glad that several people have mentioned her

[00:34:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think she gets credit for, like you say, diversifying her portfolio. you know, into the acting world. it's worth noting, you know, she was barely ahead of Rick Ross. but you know, there is a big difference between 21 and 20. It's the top 20. So, again, I think, you know, she was a bit of a compiler, but there were a couple of people who ranked her in the top 10.

and, you know, I think just like in terms of the breadth of her career, you know, the longevity, the diversity of the things that she's gotten into. you know, even if it's not as much ownership as somebody, even like a Rick Ross, it's just like, having your hands in a lot of pies and like that really counts for something as a mogul.

So, I think it makes sense to see you there.

[00:35:36] Dan Runcie: Agreed 19 is Eminem. So let's talk about it. How do we feel about Eminem in 19?

[00:35:43] Zack Greenburg: You know, I think it's a weird one, honestly. you know, there's no doubting, his lyrical prowess and where, you know, where he kind of stacks up as part of like the pantheon of lyricists, like fine. But is he really a mogul? I mean, he's somebody who has been, you know, very reclusive at times.

 Who has, you know, kind of gotten in his own way at other times. I mean, I could see ranking him up here though, just by virtue of ownership of the music and sort of like the quality and quantity of his catalog. you know, what he did with D12, you know, he did have shady records and, you know, and all that.

So again, you know, there, there is kind of a layer cake of a label situation, like some of the folks who mentioned earlier across, but, you know, that was at least important to him to set up, you know, as his continued ownership of, You know, his work and, you know, certainly when it comes to like raw commercial prowess, you know, Eminem, is one of the best selling hip hop artists of all time.

If not the best, depending on how you look at it. And just, you know, simply by virtue of the amount of revenue he generated, you know, throughout the late 90s and early aughts at the peak of the sort of CD age there. you know, that deserves, some kind of something, even if he wasn't running around starting his own, you know, side businesses as much as some of these other folks

[00:37:02] Dan Runcie: Best selling artist of the 2000s by a pretty strong amount, I believe, and has the most of any genre, right? And the most streamed song of the 2000s as well, at least on Spotify with Lose Yourself, and I'm pretty sure Till I Collapse and maybe a couple of others aren't too far. Behind as Will Page as Spotify's former chief economist said, anytime Eminem farts or burps or releases anything on a streaming service, it provides a huge bump to everything in this back catalog.

So, I still laugh about that, but I do think that speaks to it there and. If, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was one of the first hip hop artists to have a Sirius XM channel himself.

So that's something that's unique and obviously Sirius is still doing its thing. So, shout out to him there. A bit higher than I probably would have ranked him, but that's why it's interesting to get the group results here. Ah, this one's gonna be spicy. Number 18. Your boy, Suge Knight.

[00:38:02] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, you know, I mean, I think this is one of the tougher ones on the entire list. You know, this is not like a list of, Ms. Congeniality or Mr. Congeniality, as you'll see, you know, some of the other names on here. Obviously, you know, Suge is in jail. he's been involved in the death of, you know, human beings that like that is, you know, not sort of like what you're after in a mogul here, but, enough people, you know, I guess felt that the business, if you just, you know, looking at it from a pure business perspective, was enough to put them up here. And, you know, there is no arguing that death row at its peak was one of the most influential record labels, you know, not just in hip hop, but of anything. I mean, any genre, when death row was at its hottest, I don't know any, kind of moment where any other, you know, you'd have to stack that up against peak Motown or, you know, Atlantic or something like that, but, you know, that was really like a, peak moment. So, you know, I think this is one of the things we run into on this list like if somebody exhibits, a level of, you know, sort of business ingenuity, you know, that counts for something and, you know, the other things that you do in your life and your career, you know, we'll detract from that, but, you know, what you did at your peak, I think will get you pretty far in a list like this when people kind of count, you know, we kind of count sort of like the ceiling as opposed to the average, in some cases. So, I don't know. What do you think?

[00:39:27] Dan Runcie: These are the two most impressive business moves that Suge Knight has done. Number two is shaking down Vanilla Ice to get his points for everything that he did on the album that had Ice Ice Baby there. Because he was able to use that money to then start and co found Death Row with Dr. Dre. That's number two.

Number one is at the 1995 Source Awards where he publicly makes his Call to attract Tupac to say, Hey, I know you're in jail, but we're riding with you. Tupac wasn't signed there at the time, but he knew that this was an opportunity. Tupac likely needed somewhere to call a home and he called his shot. He was able to make it happen.

I know everyone talks about the diddy shot about, you know, being all in the video death row. And that, of course, is infamous in its own right. But I think the number one thing that should night did is that that said. those 2 things speak to what should night is, 1, it is that muscle and the prowess of being able to overpower a situation and then take advantage.

And I think those were things that he was good at. That said, I don't think he was necessarily strong as a. Business leader, the company imploded in large part. And I don't think it imploded because of Dr. Dre, it imploded because of all of the things, all the shenanigans. And I think for what he was building, some of that just got a little too close to the sun, unfortunately. And, that's Chuck Knight

[00:40:49] Zack Greenburg: And, I think that, you know, in some of the reporting I've done over the years, One of the things people say is that Shug and a lot of the guys around him, you know, it wasn't that they were necessarily like that. It's just they kind of had been watching too many bad gangster movies and the music business, didn't know what to do with somebody like Suge Knight.

And so the more he kind of like played this role, the more he grew into it to where, to the point where he was actually living sort of a bad gangster movie. and sort of like created, turned himself into a monster. Yeah, so I think like the evolution. or the evolution, of somebody like Suge Knight is sort of fascinating in terms of like what you can, what sort of playing a role can do to you, over the course of time.

[00:41:32] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And well said number 17 here is America's most wanted ice cube. I'll start here to kick things off. I think that Ice Cube, like Queen Latifah mentioned earlier, was one of the early ones who had said that he knew that living and doing everything off a raft wasn't gonna last forever. And I think a lot of it was because he experienced some of the brunt and ugliness of it.

I mean, we've all seen the Straight Outta Compton movie. He goes into Jerry Heller's office. He starts smashing shit. He releases no Vaseline. There was definitely a no fucks given that carried through even after he was done with NWA, but he saw what this industry is like as well and then that's when he starts writing screenplays.

And then that's how Friday because the thing becomes a thing. And then. His career just continues to take off after that he still dabbled in rap and did his thing, but he definitely became known early on for one of the people that took a risk with cube entertainment and everything that he was able to do there.

And with any of the movies that he had, whether it was the movies with Mike Epps and plenty others, I do believe that most of these movies were pretty profitable. And he was able to. Do it work within the confines that he had and just continue to build everything he did from a career. We've seen him expand as well into everything that he's done with the big 3 specifically giving a home for basketball players that can still play, but maybe they can't make, you know, a 13 person NBA roster anymore.

I do think that some of his more recent news highlights that are a bit more politically driven or him walking around with Tucker Carlson and probably take it away from some of the more prominent memories of Hugh Ice Cube is, but yeah, that's why I had had him or that's why he, I think deserves to be, you know, where he is, on the list.

[00:43:27] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think it's interesting, you know, you see, Eminem, Suge Knight, Ice Cube, all together, you know, they're all, inextricably connected to Dr. Dre. one way or the other. Right. and you know, would there, would Dre have been Dre without the three of them? you know, at different phases of his career, you know, I don't know, I mean, I think certainly what, Ice Cube did as part of NWA, you know, I wouldn't say that, that NWA was like.

like a business first organization. But like that wasn't the point of NWA and if it hadn't been for NWA, I don't think you would have been able to have business first organizations come out of hip hop in the way that you did. and certainly, you know, somebody like Dr. Dre, so. I think he gets extra points for that.

and, you know, this is probably why, you know, he was again, I don't know, was he compiler? He was, you know, he had like a lot of kind of middling, a lot of lists, a couple of top 10 votes, you know? So, you know, I think again, everybody has their favorite and he's up there for a lot of folks.

[00:44:27] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Number 16 is Drake. Should we poke the bear again?

[00:44:33] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Does Drake deserve to be at number 16 on this list?

[00:44:37] Dan Runcie: This one surprised me, I was very surprised at the number of people that had him on the list, because you can make a case for the opposite, right? It's similar to the M and M thing, but almost to the extreme because M and M, yes, most commercially successful artists, XYZ. There's other artists that are less commercially successful at M and M that did more in that mogul definition but for Drake, it's even bigger of a Delta between these two, because here you have the most streamed artists of all time. So clearly commercially successful on its own, but people believe that OVO. Records or OVO sound itself actually could hurt an artist's career. And when you think about that, you think about some of the other multimedia things that he's done.

I know he's been active as an investor and I know that people like Nicki Minaj and others have said, Oh, you know, Drake's a low key billionaire. He just doesn't want you to know it personally. Again, he may be, I mean, I'm not sure what he may not disclose, but it isn't always just about wealth. It's like, what opportunities were you able to create for each other?

I do think it's good. That drink has been able to have different people that have been working alongside that. I think did get a bit of that drink stimulus package. And I think that's something that is quite debated, but I do think that. I feel like 21 Savage has definitely benefited from it. I mean, he was already commercially successful, but for him and Drake to do a joint album together was huge.

I think it was the same way that it was huge for Future and the same way that the Migos going on tour with Drake in 2018 was huge for them and anything else that Drake continues to do from that perspective. So I think it is, you know, debatable, but I mean, people do definitely add some weight to the artists themselves.

[00:46:18] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And, you know, I think he should be around Eminem and whether they're both too high is an open question, but, you know, there's no doubting the commercial viability of what he's done. He did start more side businesses in Eminem, right? With OVO, whether it's the label, the festival, the clothing line, you know, he started a whiskey brand called Virginia black, which I tried once.

It tasted okay. but I don't think it's selling, you know, I don't know if he's even still doing it. yeah, he is definitely involved as a startup investor, so maybe, you know, we'll see some exits and we start to think of him differently at that point. But, yeah, you know, again, I think it's, some voters just kind of overweighted, you know, musical prowess and pop culture influence.

And if you're talking about that, I, I don't know anybody who's been as influential in the past 15 years. I mean, he's, you know, he's the most streamed artist of all time and that's got to count for something.

[00:47:08] Dan Runcie: Right. I know his cannabis line failed, but there's a lot of people, even people that we'll get to in this list that have also had failed or struggling cannabis

businesses. And, there's a lot that we could discuss there, but moving on number 15 is Sylvia Robinson, the originator.

[00:47:26] Zack Greenburg: I think she deserves to be in the top five, personally. because if there were no Sylvia Robinson, yeah, I mean, I don't know that we have hip hop and, you know, it's, you know, for those who don't know the story, she was running sugar hill records with her husband, Joe sylvia was actually a child star singer herself.

And, you know, they kind of had this like middling existence with their label. And then all of a sudden she's at this birthday party that she didn't even want to go to in Harlem and she sees Lovebug Starsky up on the microphone. A hip hop hippie to the hippie to the hip hip hop. You know, this is early, early seventies.

She's never heard anything like it. All the kids, you know, hands in the air, like you just don't care. And the whole thing. she tries to get Lovebug to sign. There's some kind of dispute, like with his management, never happens. And so she just goes to the pizzeria in New Jersey, finds three kids, get him, gets them to talk real fast over this record is how she described it.

and that's, you know, that's Rapper's Delight. That's the first hip hop song on Wax. That's the first hit. you know, that sort of spawns the whole genre. So, you could certainly argue, that, you know, she, borrowed or she hired, hired people who borrowed or whatever to do this, you know, like the idea that, that the first hip hop, track on wax was like, you know, originated in a pizza shop in New Jersey is really unfortunate cause it started at the Bronx, but like, you know, Sylvia came from Harlem.

She, you know, she, she knew that world. Like, you know, she was part of the music business and, for better or worse, she took hip hop from being, you know, just basically like spoken word in person kind of thing to being, you know, national events. Would it have happened eventually?

Yeah, I think so. But you know, who knows? I mean, it could have taken years longer and if it took years longer, you know, are we going to have the eighties with like run DMC and Def Jam and all that? Like, you know, I don't know. I mean, it, could have taken a lot longer to get off the ground if she hadn't done what she'd done.

And, you know, I don't think we, I don't think we should really be dinging Sylvia Robinson for her Machiavellian tactics, given some of the other people on this list, you know, we're talking like Suge Knight and whoever else, you know, there's quite nefarious characters, you know, as we get higher up too in this list.

So, you know, I don't think anything she did was. remotely as bad as, as like a lot of the dudes on this list. and, you know, so, you know, let's, I think we give her her due and yeah, I would definitely put her higher, but, you know, I think that's part of the deal when, when you have somebody who's that early on.

You know, people are going to say, Oh, well, you know, the total gross is not quite as much as so and so or whatever the case may be. And she wasn't as famous as some of the artists. So, but you know, she's up there, I mean, ahead of some pretty big names, Drake, Eminem, what have you. So, I think she's getting some flowers here

[00:50:00] Dan Runcie: The total gross knock is always one that makes me roll my eyes a bit because even if you take out the inflation aspect and the amount of money that's now in the industry, this is something that happens with pioneers in any type of industry. They are the ones that take the early hits to make it possible.

She and her work is what made it possible for rappers to like, she and her workers have made it possible for the message and anything else that we then see after that. Yes. Sugar Hill. records did have its struggles, afterward, like many other labels. But what do you think about broader context of the eighties being a very tough time in general for black music?

And there were only a certain number of decision makers in power that could make that happen. Yeah. You have to take that into account. And then additionally, she did stuff outside of even just this record label itself. As you mentioned, she was a recording artist herself. She also owned a nightclub. So there were other mogul type things that she had her hands.

And so shout out to Sylvia, who knows where this would be without her.

[00:51:00] Zack Greenburg: And probably worth caveating also that, you know, she did have some, Disputes over paying artists, as the years went on. So did like really a lot of people on this list is we could do like a whole separate, you know, like has some kind of dispute on how they pay artists. So, you know, that, that's probably worth noting too, but yeah, I mean, so does everybody else.

And, you know, I think she deserves her flowers.

[00:51:22] Dan Runcie: Number 14, Dame Dash,

[00:51:25] Zack Greenburg: Another, another hot one coming in. I mean, I think a lot of people would disagree with this, but you know, some people would put them even higher. I mean, I think he might be the most polarizing name on this entire list. Like some people had on top five, you know, some people didn't list them at all.

you know, I think it kind of comes in. We've had this conversation before. Would there be a Jay Z without a Damon Dash? you know, I mean, I think so, but it's that part of the, you know, we've talked about him in the context of startups and do you, you know, you need a different kind of founder for your like pre seed days than you do for your series B.

you know, if you're like a mafia, family, you need like a wartime Don, you know, versus like a peacetime Don or whatever it's called. But like, you know, I think, Dame Dash is a wartime Don. He's a seed stage startup founder. and he does it fair as well. You know, when it comes to like the growth stage and the corporate boardrooms and stuff, but, you know, there's no denying his brilliance.

you know, I think what he did, you know, certainly with rock aware, you know, expanding, the Roc-A-Fella empire beyond music. you know, maybe he realized that Jay was eventually going to leave and that they just, it wasn't going to be forever. And so he wanted to get his hands into, you know, as many different areas as he could, but, you know, there's like a lot of pro and a fair bit of con, but, you know, I think again, he's one who, you know, the pro outweighed the con, he didn't kill anybody, you know, so there's some people on here who did.

yeah, the con is only like so much con in my opinion.

[00:52:56] Dan Runcie: This conversation makes me think about, that backstage documentary that. Roc-A-Fella had put out after the hard knock life tour. And there's that infamous scene of Dave dash yelling and swearing at Kevin Lyles, who was at Def Jam at the time about the jackets and where what logo was supposed to be, or something other than that.

And thinking about that in context now of like, you know, how we talked about Kevin Lyles and everything he was able to do from that run and still can continue to do. And with where Dame Dash is, is in his career, Dame Dash doing his thing. I think he very much lived through and practice and preach the ownership standards that worked for him, where he has Dame Dash Studios, Dame Dash this, and he's been able to.

Create exactly what he wanted to. We heard him on that infamous 2015 breakfast club interview where he's yelling at DJ Envy and Charlemagne about, Oh, well, if your son wants a job, can you get him a job here at power 105 or whatever? No. Well, I can do him at where I'm at. And as comic as the delivery was, there is some aspect of mogul dumb.

That is a bit of that King making aspect of, okay, can you create opportunities for others around you? What those opportunities look like definitely vary. And I think that is a factor. So I do highlight that is something that Dame is able to do. And Dave is also similar to he's similar to a polarizing basketball player in the sense that the media may look and be like, why do you all fuck with this guy?

Like, what's going on? But if you ask the people that are actually in it, a lot of that would be like, oh, well, you got to look at Dame dash, Dame dash is the guy. And when I have. Interviewed. I'm sure you've interviewed and talked to many of young artists, too, or young label executives, too. A lot of them will reference Dave Dash.

A lot of them will look at what he was able to do alongside Roc-A-Fella, almost in the same way that, you know, players will swear by Kyrie or swear by James Harden or some other type of athlete that may be polarizing in their own right. And the media is like, Oh, why do you all like this guy? And it's like, Oh, well, no, you don't understand.

So there's something about. The people, and obviously I say that being self aware is us as people more so on the media side, as opposed to being in it themselves. But there's something about these young artists and moguls as well that have always looked up and respected what Dame has built. And even though it may not resonate, like, personally, I acknowledge that.

[00:55:23] Zack Greenburg: I would say, if you're going to make a basketball reference, Maybe not personality, but like basketball style, I'd almost liken him to Carmelo Anthony, you know, like he's an isolationist. He's a scorer, like, you know, he may not be very good at distributing the basketball, but like, you know, you throw him the ball in the corner and he's going to find a way to get it in.

And, You know, like a lot of people wouldn't think that he belongs in the Hall of Fame at all, you know, but some people would, be insistent on it. So, you know, yeah, I think that sort of like singular focus, you know, you could definitely give him credit for that,

[00:55:55] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Number 13, we are Cohen.

[00:55:58] Zack Greenburg: man, another like bulldozer of a human being, but, you know, certainly somebody who, you know, maybe he has also got the finger roll, you know, like he, he can have a light touch when needed. you know, I think just like in terms of longevity, we talk about longevity with some of the names on this list, you know, Leroy was there in the very beginning of hip hop, you know, managing rappers, and it gives the road manager run DMC, taking the leadership role, running Def Jam and Warner, starting 300.

Now, you know, YouTube's head of music, you know, the number of careers that he's touched over the years. From, you know, whatever hip hop pioneers you want to mention. I mean, you know, talking about LL Cool J, Run D. M. C., Beastie Boys. you know, to like later on with, you know, Jay, and then, you know, more recently, like whose career doesn't he touch, at YouTube? you know, I think he's a hard one to argue with. I mean, you know, I think though that, I like this basketball analogy though. You're like, he might be more of a Scottie Pippen because he's always been like, you know, there's almost always somebody else, Who he's working with, who is like higher up on this list than he is, you know, and we can get to some of those names in a bit, but, I guess now that he's at YouTube, he really is running the show.

 but he can score, he can make the assists. you know, get these rebounds, get the triple double. I think Lyor is a, definitely deserves a spot up here.

[00:57:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah, the do it for what? 4 plus decades. Now, if we're looking back to us, well, almost 4 decades, if we're looking at it in total, but impressive each step of the way. And there is something admirable. I think about the no fucks given mentality and perspective of just how he's been able to do things. And I do think that a lot of hip hop executives over time have been criticized for not thinking about efficiency and things like that enough.

And I do think that we, or was 1 of them who probably lead a bit more into that. And regardless of who it was, willing to call someone out about it. I think back to, there was this interview that he had done with Young Thug a couple years ago. And, this is back when Lyor was at 300 and Thug, they were talking about the process.

And he says to Thug, he's like, why don't you spend more time on your music? You have these like little songs that you just like, leave like little orphans. Like, why don't you like actually grow and nurture them? And it's back and forth where Thug's trying to be like, Oh, he doesn't understand it. You know, you got to just drop frequently the audience.

That's what they want to hear. So it was very much an interesting dichotomy of just seeing where things are of the streaming era, but I think that highlighted that even when thug was peak, like, everyone was like, oh, yeah, thug is the next 1 up. He was still like, hey, no, like, you need to do better. So there was something interesting about that.

And that. Even I think his mission as well with YouTube, like I think before he got there with YouTube, YouTube was often seen as such the enemy of the music industry in some ways, the same way that any other type of distributor is. And he's took it upon his badge to be like, no, I don't only want to be a friend to YouTube.

I want to be the number one. Source of revenue for the music industry. So really working to just change the narrative, both from a positioning perspective, but also everything there, I think has been a cool additional chapter in his career. Because I think a lot of the people that we have maybe named on this list that were big in the 80s or 90s, but are kind of on the list for legacy reasons like, we are still doing it.

[00:59:09] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. all right. Who do we got next? I think,

[00:59:12] Dan Runcie: 12, we got Jimmy Iovine.

[00:59:15] Zack Greenburg: That's interesting. I thought he would be higher. I think we both had him higher but you know, maybe I think sometimes, yeah, again, he's another one where when you have like such a broad portfolio of work and some of it is not in hip hop, then, you know, people don't necessarily consider you for a list like this.

So. you know, I mean, here's a guy who had experience with U2 and, you know, all these great rockers and, you know, he ended up at Apple. so I think maybe he got dinged a little bit for that, but you know, there's no doubting his impact, from Interscope to Beats, you know, certainly there's no Dre on the commercial side, without Jimmy.

And, you know, I think his ability to see, you know, there's this, famous. He and Dre have been walking down the beach in Malibu or wherever. and Dre's like, you know, I've got this new deal. somebody wants me to make sneakers. And Jimmy's like, F sneakers. Let's make speakers. you know, that was the birth of, Beats, or at least that's how I was told, but you could kind of see him saying that, right.

he always had that vision for not just creating. a new product, but an entirely new category. And that's what they did with beats. And I think that alone, you know, I mean, that's like, I think the single biggest hip hop business deal, 3 billion, selling to Apple. I think that should probably get him a little higher.

you know, maybe not top five, but I think we both put them higher than 12.

[01:00:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah, agreed. Yeah, nothing else to add there. I thought he would have been on the top 10, but yeah, it's always interesting to see how these things play out. Number 11, Jay Prince, Rap A Lot Records, another interesting one to see where he ended up on this list.

[01:00:54] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, he's sort of a sleeper pick, like hip hop heads, would know Jay Prince, but I don't know, you know, And certainly like most of the people we've mentioned are more well known from the pop culture standpoint. But I guess if you look at our judges, it's very hip hop industry specific. So, you know, specifics of, you know, I think Jay Prince is like, he's sort of like, you know, you talk about the rapper's rapper, he's like the hip hop moguls, hip hop mogul.

And I think, and again, it's reflected in the judges, like, you know, some people didn't have him on his list, but he got a ton of top 10 votes, you know, across the board. So, yeah, I think that, that propelled him is like, if you know, you know, you know, his significance to the genre.

[01:01:33] Dan Runcie: And even the artists rising now, you always hear that there's some connection to J Prince, which gives you an idea of the tentacles that he has right? When Drake is like, Oh, I decided not to come back and push a tee after what he said, because J Prince said I shouldn't. And you're like, okay, J Prince really is in this.

You hear about Meg the Stallion and just her coming up as a Houston rapper mentioning J Prince the way that she does. He's stayed in it. And for someone that hasn't touched a mic, he definitely is one of the highest people on this list that hasn't touched a mic.

[01:02:06] Zack Greenburg: I think he is the second highest sort of, well, we can

[01:02:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, we could get into that. Yeah. so now we're into the top 10, number 10, SNOP Snoop Dogg.

[01:02:22] Zack Greenburg: I think this is a great place for Snoop. I mean, you know, he's certainly, You know, if you ask people like Snoop Dogg, artist or businessman, people would probably say artist first, but, he really does have a tremendous business sense. And, you know, in terms of like the raw, total of endorsement deals done, startup investments made, you know, like he is out there, with his brand.

And, you know, I think more than just about anybody else on this list and, you know, not in stupid ways, like he's very thoughtful about it. You know, and I think this whole like Martha Stewart, you know, bromance, whatever you want to call it, has been like hilarious and wonderful for his brand, but you know, you see him endorsing everything like Skechers and you know, he's in, in all these spots.

And, I think what he's doing Casa Verde, you know, that's just his vehicle to invest in cannabis is like very on point. He understands his brand. and you know, he understands ownership, but he also understands how to make money. And he's doing a little bit of both. So I think above all with Snoop, what is the most impressive is how he's transitioned from, you know, who he was at the beginning of his career to who he is now.

I mean, this is a guy who was, you know. On trial for murder. Like, you know, like this is quite a ways to go from there to being piling around with Martha Stewart. you know, I think she ultimately was the one who did the time, but like, you know, you know, just to have like. That kind of 180 for your personal brand, speaks to his brilliance in marketing.

and I think, you know, like he might be more emblematic than anybody in hip hop of how hip hop was able to transition from where it was in the 90s and the east coast, west coast thing to today and, tying up with corporate America. and you know, it's a pretty remarkable feat. So yeah, I think, he definitely deserves a spot in the top

[01:04:13] Dan Runcie: The man literally went from being the reason why Time Warner wanted nothing to do with its Interscope investment and being on the cover of a Newsweek in this like borderline mugshot photo of being like, Oh, this is what's wrong with hip hop to now being the emblematic brand whisperer. And yeah. On the covers with someone who actually did serve jail time, Martha Stewart, incredible.

Yeah. Incredible. Number 9, this one's interesting. So number 9 is Nas. He made it to the top 10 and I'm glad that Nas is on this list. Of course, legendary MC, very influential with everything he's done from an investing perspective and what he's been able to do as well with other types of partnerships, helping to revive the mass appeal brand as well.

I don't know if I've necessarily seen as much of the king making or as much of the, oh, I was able to put X and Y other person on in that same type of way, but I do respect that a lot of people had him on here and they likely do, you know, see him as inspiration in that way. But yeah, what are your thoughts?

[01:05:19] Zack Greenburg: I think with Nas, it all comes down to the startup investing and, you know, of anybody on this list, I think he is the most influential when it comes to hip hop and Silicon Valley and the relationship that he had with Ben Horowitz or it has, you know, basically they connected over a shared love of barbecue and hip hop.

I think Steve Stapp put them together. You know, it turned him from somebody who would never be considered for a list like this as recently as, you know, probably 10, 15 years ago, probably even 10 years ago, we wouldn't have had him on this list, to being top 10. And, you know, Nas was always the guy who he was the rapper's rapper, you know, he cared about the music, not the money.

And, you know, but I think, you know, thanks to Anthony Sala, who he worked with, you know, continues to work with, sort of a startup whisper for him. he was able to accumulate stakes in some of, you know, most influential startups out there. I mean, I think he was in early in Lyft, Coinbase, a whole bunch of others.

So, you know, Nas, to me, like, you could probably argue at this point, Jay Z may have a bigger portfolio. Jay Z may have overtaken everybody as sort of like the primary Silicon Valley a force among hip hop's royalty, but, you know, Nas was the one who really kind of showed the way. and the amount that he's done in a relatively short period of time, I think, you know, it's super impressive.

And, you know, when you talk about who did something different on this list, he did, that's something very different. so props to NOS for that.

[01:06:43] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Number 8 here is another interesting 1 to talk about is Kanye West. Kanye West famously rose up a lot of these net worth and, Highest earner list because of the success he had in fashion specifically with Adidas and his partnership with his brand Yeezy and arguably having the next most successful brand next to Jordan in terms of a single person being able to whether it's an athlete or entertainer being able to have.

A shoe and will look like a shoe franchise that was going to live on. Unfortunately, we've clearly seen that implode and the implosion a bit. Unfortunately, I do think is maybe part of the reason why someone like yay may not be even higher on this list is because being a mogul. Is something about, like, we've talked about before the ability to have the influence to be able to put the pieces in particular areas.

And for someone like yay to then go and make anti Semitic remarks, condone hate speech, promote hate speech. And you see all that crumbling down. One, of course, you mentioned that there's many people on this list that have done disgraceful things. But of course, we're hiding that calling that out here. But two, you just see how much that impact and it really destroyed so much of what has been able to build that shows some weakness in the quote unquote mogul foundation aspect of things.

And I know that he was able to create opportunities for others through good music. I think most famously, we look at Pusha T and everything Pusha T was able to do in his career after the, my beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy album, and then becoming president of good music, I think. He's able to do that.

Some of the early co signs with Travis Scott and others, I think, you know, work to, Yeezy's advantage as well. I think we've still yet to see that infamous Donda org chart with all of the various things that Yeezy wants to build come to life. If he is able to build that at some point, then would happily rank him higher on a list like this.

But that's where I'm at with Ye on the mogul list.

[01:08:47] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think like with, you know, a lot of other names on this list, it's sort of like, what was your ceiling? and you've got a lot of points for that. But then you get points taken off for, you know, for, sort of bad things you did or, or maybe not the things you, bad things you did from a personal level.

Cause a lot of people are still high up anyway, but at least from a business perspective, I mean. You know, yeah, he was, at one point the wealthiest hip hop artist in history. I think also the wealthiest musician of any genre, maybe the wealthiest entertainer, depending on how you count that.

but he also destroyed, like overnight the largest fortune in, hip hop history, at least to that point, with what he was doing. And, you know, you can talk about mental illness and that's, you know, very real, situation for him, unfortunately. But like, at the end of the day, you know, there's no condoning, the kind of stuff that he was saying and promoting and, you know, really having an effect.

And you could see in some of the statistics out there, you know, hate crimes, especially against Jews have been up, you know, over the past year or so. And there's a lot of other factors going into that, but like, you can't be contributing to that kind of thing. so, yeah, I think you know, if that hadn't happened, you know, I think he would have made it into the top five for sure.

and it's worth noting that, you know, he got, like, probably like a half dozen top five votes anyway. A lot of people left him off, you know, I don't know, I was bouncing all over where I would put him, but, I think you have to kind of consider not just what he created, but what he tore down.

And so, yeah, he should be on this list, you know, he created probably with maybe the exception of beats, the most valuable brand to come out of hip hop and Yeezy. But then he also tore it down. So, you know, that's what this list is about. you get to have these debates.

[01:10:20] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Agreed. Number seven, someone I'm excited to talk about 50 cent . 50, I mean, where do you even start? I think there's a few things 1, of course, you could talk about the rap career and how he was able to use shock value to his advantage with songs like how to rob and how that continue to be a through line with this career, starting all the beef with the murdering camp and everyone else there.

But I think that same mentality work to his advantage as a businessman to we have both talked to broken down the deal that he did with vitamin water and for hip hop, that was 1 of the 1st of its kind that we saw. That was really dope to see. He continued to do plenty of other business ventures, be involved with things, but I think what's kept him in the mix, especially the past decade or so is what he's been able to do on the multimedia side.

He has been single handedly. In many ways, carrying one of the legacy streaming platforms out there with stars. I was listening to a podcast that talked about how power and all of the various power books and chapters are responsible for 25% of the demand on that platform. And that, of course, that number came through parody analytics, so it doesn't exactly reflect on viewership, but when you look at how he was able to just continue that in an era where I think it's hard to create shows like that, that last, we obviously saw shows like Empire come and go and others, but he's still at it and it's been impressive to see how he's continued to that.

And especially with the type of people that acted in power, that's a bit of that. Yeah. Making aspect where you're creating opportunities for other artists, whether it's, you know, having Mary J Blige in there or having different folks like that. So, I do think as much as he still is the same 50 will still cloud will still do jokes.

We saw him courtside, the NBA playoffs of the Sacramento playoff, or the Sacramento Kings game because his alcohol company has a partnership with the Sacramento Kings. And I believe he also has one with the Houston Rockets too. So it's good to see that even 16 years after one of the most influential exits in hip hop, 50 is still doing his thing.

[01:12:25] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And I think, it also goes back to ownership like so many of these cases, right when he got that deal, you know, his first record deal, he always says he went out and he took, you know, his first million dollars and went and, you know, registered all the trademarks for G unit and all these different things that he was going to do with it. and you know, he built a brand that was bigger than just 50 cent, right? He built a lot of brands that are bigger than just 50 cent. And I think what he did with vitamin water, I know we talked about it in the context of Chris Lighty, that set the blueprint, you know, not just for hip hop, but, you know, for the entertainment business on the whole, I remember I was doing a cover story on Ashton Kutcher for Forbes, you know, five, 10 years ago about his startup, sort of investing career. And, you know, he's Ashton Kutcher is probably like the most, successful entertainer investing in startups in terms of like successes and breadth and depth and all that. And I asked him why he started and he said, you know, I saw 50 cents deal. I, you know, I saw the vitamin water thing come through and I had just done like a Kodak film thing and, you know, for cash.

And I was like, man, what am I doing? I got to get in on these startups. So, you know, 50 really inspired Ashton Kutcher to go do the startup thing, which then I think led to the whole entertainment industry getting involved in the startup thing. and, you know, came back around to Nas and eventually Jay.

So, I think that, you know, what he did all the way back in when it was like two, 2006, 2007, that kind of set the mark, for others to follow and was, you know, new and interesting. I mean, Nas did it differently, right? Nas was more about being an actual VC at 50 cents on one deal that he thought was pretty cool and he was into the equity side of it, but yeah, I think that's, you know, that is definitely a trailblazing maneuver.

And even if he doesn't do anything else ever again, I think, you know. he's a rightful claim to the spot.

[01:14:09] Dan Runcie: Agreed . Number 6 on the list is Master P. he's another 1 that has continued to live on from a legacy perspective in terms of the young record label executives, the young artists, who are they modeling themselves after? Who do they want to do? And so many of them reference that late 90s, no limit run the ownership and how Master P.

As many other record label executives worth the time, which we'll get into, but how he was able to navigate things and just the feeling of branding marketing and all of the different areas that he's been able to have his hand into and multimedia in product sales. He gets his product app distribution and Walmart and other stores like that.

So it's been interesting and I think good to see him in the mix with things. He's always one of those names that comes up with, oh, there's this big brand for sale, whether it's Reebok or this sports team or this multimedia thing. He's always been in the mix with those, areas as well. So it's good to see him get representation on the list too.

[01:15:08] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think just in terms of taking, you know, what had been sort of a regional label, in making it national and, sort of getting the kind of deal that he got. I think that's at the bar for a lot of deals to come and, you know, and that, that counts for a ton and, you know, getting involved into all kinds of different things that, you know, you may not even know until you like really take a close look at it, diversifying your portfolio, you know, as a businessman.

I mean, I think he's as good at, example of that as anybody.

[01:15:37] Dan Runcie: Agreed now we're in the top 5. This is where things get interesting. this 1st, 1, got a big exhale before this 1, co founder of death jam himself. Russell Simmons, where do we start?

[01:15:51] Zack Greenburg: Well, you know, I think it's instructive to look through. the different votes here. I mean, well, a lot of people left him out, but you know, a lot of people even emailed caveats to me, like, look, I hate to put him on here, you know, but his impact is undeniable. And he got a bunch of first place votes actually, but I think enough people left him off entirely that, you know, it averaged out to him being, and he was, it's pretty clear that he's in fifth on this list. It's not particularly close in either direction. but yeah, again, you talk about blueprints, right?

 Creating Def Jam, like sort of the iconic hip hop record label. And, you know, before all these artists that came along starting their own labels, you know, took a cue from Russell. all the artists that saw him create Fat Farm took a cue in creating clothing lines. And, you know, as time went on and he started getting into all these other different parts of the entertainment world, you know, I think that was something that other artists thought as well, but it's hard to name an artist whose career he's not touched, you know, of the legends that have been around for a couple of decades, you know, especially some of the names that we're going to get to in a minute. So, you know, obviously, can't discount, everything he's done, on the negative side, you know, certainly we've all seen the headlines, but, you know, his impact on the business remains, so significant that a lot of these people, the other voters put them on top and, you know, it's hard to argue his business influence.

[01:17:11] Dan Runcie: You can't tell the story of hip hop without including him. You also can't mention him in good practice without acknowledging everything, the good and the bad. One other thing I'll say on the good side was leaning into reality TV shows and things like that early with whether it was, you know, having his family involved with different things on TV, and things like that. I think we were able to see him continue to put himself on with their right. It's like, of course, obviously, as anyone knows, you know, his brothers in run DMC, see the whole family. And then you obviously have even wasn't it like Angela Simmons now, you know, is been able to build her own career as a business woman herself in large part.

Thanks to the platform that Russell Simmons was able to build there. So, yeah, I'm glad that he was on the list. I'm also glad we're able to have a full conversation about it. Yeah. Number four, top four is this is where we get into the famous Mount Rushmore, everyone always asks the question. Number four is a combination, but it's for good reason. It's Birdman and Slim, the co founders and leaders of Cash Money Records.

[01:18:17] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, we didn't really specify, whether or not you could put people together or not, but so many voters ranked them together. and they're really inextricable. I mean, they are of course, brothers and co founders of cash money. So, it only seemed appropriate to do that.

we only did that in one other case, but, you know, but here it made sense, you know, Birdman and Slim, you know, fire and ice, I mean, thunder and lightning, you know, that that's kind of their MO in cash money and, you know, you and I have talked about their dynamic a lot over the years, but, you know, I think similar to master P and taking what had been a regional label in cash money and, you know, extracting this incredible distribution deal from universal getting this huge advance, you know, in the 90s getting, it was $30 million, you know, even in, those days, you know, with inflation would have been, you know, probably at least double that at this point. Plus the ability to own everything going forward and then just their continued ability to stay, you know, you would talk about ownership throughout this list, I mean, those guys have managed maintain control of their catalog and, you know, through some, let's say there have been some disputes as to whether or not they held onto too much of it without distributing it fairly to their artists. But,

[01:19:30] Dan Runcie: generous way to put it.

[01:19:32] Zack Greenburg: You know, yeah, yeah, we could say, but, I think just the endurance cash money, you know, from the early days and hot boys and little Wayne, you know, coming through to like Drake, Nikki, Wayne, and you know, even if they never put out another hit, they're going to have that catalog to sit back on throwing off like double digit millions every year.

So, you know, it's interesting. I mean, I wonder what would have happened if they had sold their label at the peak of the catalog boom a couple of years ago when interest rates were so low. I mean, I think they could have gotten, I mean, I don't know, hundreds of millions of dollars for sure, maybe half a billion.

I mean, when you look at some of the numbers being thrown around. Yeah, I don't know about these days, now that things have cooled off a little bit on that front, but there's no denying their influence on the music and the ownership of the music. And you know, they certainly diversified. I think didn't Birdman own like gas stations or oil rigs or something for a hot minute there, but you know, I think it comes down to like, what's a mogul, you know, like a music mogul, a hip hop mogul, you know, for them to have launched and continue to own one of the most successful labels of all time, you know, and to have given so many other people on this list, the platform to start what they did, you know, and then they were pretty clearly ahead of Russell, which is interesting to me. and I think that's probably an effect of some people leaving Russell off, but there's no denying what Birdman and Slim did for the genre. And so, there they are, although some artists might, not be so happy and, you know, understandably.

[01:20:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think part of the reason why they may be ahead of Russell in that way is because there's that ownership piece that goes back to it, right? I think we talked about it when we talked about, whether it was Def Jam or one of the other pods that we did, where the fact that Def Jam isn't necessarily owned by its co founders in the same way, but Cash Money is I think made a big of a difference there.

And I think With Birdman and slim as well, even if, let's say, there wasn't a whole 2nd chapter of the cash money story like, even if we didn't see the young money to then Drake and Nikki side of it, it's like those, even if you separated those would be 2 ownership stories. In themselves that would have had placement in this list of maybe high up.

You clearly saw Master P on this list where a lot of the recognition for Master P was things that he did in that early phase that Cash Money was able to as well. And then you have this whole run from 2007 up until 2018 because that was the last Drake album that came out under Cash Money. So the two hall of fame careers in themselves, it's almost similar to how Tom Brady, it's like, even if you look at everything that he did, you know, the 1st, 3rd of his career, then like the 2nd, 3rd, and like the 3rd, like they're all hall of fame careers in their own, right?

[01:22:14] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, and it's interesting too, when you look at sort of the totals of the votes, I mean, some of them, you know, there may be a couple of places in between artists, but there's only, you know, a few votes here, they're separating them. But the voters like really made it clear like there's a obvious top 10 and even within that, you know, the, top six are pretty clear. And then we're about to get into another really clear, the tippy top tier, the top three. So, you know, the voters made their voices known, in a unified sort of way.

[01:22:41] Dan Runcie: Agreed. So, yeah, let's get into it. The top 3 was pretty clear. People are probably know the names are probably just wondering what order. So, number 3 is Puff, Did

[01:22:50] Zack Greenburg: Can't argue with that. Although he might argue with it. I think, you know, between, Number two and three, it was actually extremely close in vote totals. And, you know, Puff is interesting case like he's on almost every list. but fascinating to me, nobody put him number one, like a lot of people put him number two, like four or five people, but a number two, nobody put him number one.

but you know, we've talked about how so many times on this list and on the, you know, podcast, shouldn't be surprised to listeners. That he's up there, but you know, to run through the accomplishments, I mean, to start off, you know, as an intern at Uptown, get fired and, you know, start from scratch basically in your early twenties and to build bad boy.

And then off of bad boy, you know, Sean, John and, Ciroc and all the other side brands he's built. I mean, he's a billionaire. I think one of only two current billionaires on this list, although there was a near billionaire and a previous billionaire. But, the longevity, you know, just, just like the sort of like single handedly not single handedly, but really like in some cases, it seemed like he was pulling hip hop up with him into the mainstream, throughout the late 90s and in a time when, you know, the sort of after the Bad Boy, death row feud. you know, we talked about Snoop Dogg and how he was able to get what he did. I mean, it's just as compelling. I think a story, what Puffy did at being so intimately involved in that and so quickly becoming, you know, in the late 90s, arguably the biggest star in the world, and then becoming this incredible, you know, executive first executive, you know, not so much of an artist, but really a businessman first and foremost, over the past, you know, a couple of decades.

 It just speaks to him. I like to say Puff is sort of like, he is Richard Branson, if Richard Branson just like happened to rap a little bit, you know, he's a businessman through and through, who happens to have some, you know, artistic ability and you could argue, you know, I would say more on the production side than on the lyrical side, but like, there's no denying data as a mogul if you look him up, you know, yeah, he's gotta be on the Rushmore, Mount Rushmore of any, hip hop mogul list.

[01:24:47] Dan Runcie: He has a track record. He has the businesses. The whole thing from the beginning, selling a lifestyle. He learned that as an intern, did it with music, did it in fashion, did it in spirits and he's continued to find ways. And like anyone has had businesses that have succeeded businesses that haven't, but that guy's never going to give up and it's really cool to see people like him and others on this list. Most of the people that made it this far on the list are at least 50 years old or higher. And I don't think that's a coincidence. There's something to be said for the longevity, but I also expect these people, if they're still alive to still be making moves in their seventies, the same way that you see granted hip hop itself is only 50 years old.

So you just don't see as much of the longevity there yet, but the same way that. We still see Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett in their 90s still being active players. If these hip hop moguls live as long as they do, hopefully we'll be able to see that too. And I think he's one of them that whatever the circumstances are, we'll always have some hand in the mix.

And that's something that's always admirable about Puff.

Number two, Dr. I mean, where do you start? You could start with the co founding of Death Row. He clearly learned a lot of the good things that came from Death Row because he was able to then start Aftermath and then create the platform to find Eminem, to then find 50 Cent, two of the most commercially successful artists that we've ever seen in hip hop.

And then all that's before Beats by Dre, as we've discussed. On separate conversations, and even in this 1, the most successful hip hop or the largest hip hop business, deal that we've seen and everything that he's just continued to do throughout. I feel is so special. This is a mogul related, but it was so special just to see the Super Bowl performance that it sounds like he had a big hand and just making sure everything was able to work the way that it did.

And he got help in many ways with some of that. We're going to get into at the top of the list, but it was really cool to just see everything. And in many ways, it felt like a culmination of everything dre has built in his career.

[01:26:55] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think with Dre, it's always quality, not quantity, right? Whether it's bringing up artists, you know, that he's not going to co sign too many of them. But when he does, it's going to be Kendrick or 50 or Eminem. you know, he's not going to create too many products, but when he does, it's going to be beats, right? and you know, he's not going to perform that much, but when he does, it'll be like the halftime show, it'll be the Tupac hologram situation. you know, he is like the mad scientist sort of ethos going on that he sometimes alludes to. you know, he just goes and works and works and works and works and works and gets it perfect and then puts it out in the world and it might take decades. I mean, how many albums, three studio albums, really like three solo albums in his entire career. So like that's Dre. And I think it's interesting, you know, Diddy, is more trial and error. I think, he's out there, like he's willing to let the world see him fail, you know, and see him succeed. And I think Diddy certainly has more successes than Dre, but he has more failures, at least publicly. And, you know, just the idea, I mean, I guess it kind of comes down to beats versus Ciroc. I mean, beats, being, I think more influential at the end of the day in, in creating a category, you know, than just a product.

I think Ciroc, it wasn't a category. He did something different with spirits. He kind of like turned vodka into champagne. It's not even really vodka, which is a whole other story, but, whatever it is, he turned it into champagne. And like this could be the art of celebration and all of that, you know, it'll be interesting to see what did he does now, you know, given the state of affairs of Ciroc, but anyway, I mean, back to Dre, you know, again, just like the breadth, the longevity from where he was to where he is, you know, and I think also, looking at Nas, right?

Nas did most of what he did in the past 10 years, Dre, you know, from the beginning of Beats about 15 years ago to where he is today. If you take that out, like, yeah, like you said, he's probably still on here, but probably down around. So it's Beats or Pharrell or something like that. just to be able to have vaulted from there number two in 15 years.

 And you know, the impact that Beats has even to this day, I think. Yeah, you know, so it's very close. Diddy and Dre. I mean, I don't know, how did you rank? I think I had, Diddy as number two and Dre at three, but that's, you know, I don't know. I was really agonizing over that one.

[01:29:06] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I did it too. I had Dre at 6. So, yeah, it was, pretty close there, but yeah, agree with everything you said. And with that, we got to get into the number 1. The business man, not the business man. And you wrote a book about him actually too. If you count three Kings, number one, no surprise Jay Z.

[01:29:25] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, that's right. Jay-Z was the clear winner here, know, no surprises. he got the most first place votes out of anybody. He got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, you know, like almost half of the people here put him number one and then there's like a ton of two and three votes. So, you know, yeah, I mean. you could certainly argue, that Puff and Dre, you know, their biggest successes were bigger than Jay Z's biggest success. So rockin and beats, would probably be bigger than any single, deal that Jay Z put together, but just like. The amount of different deals, you know, from the early days and Roc-A-Fella records and rock aware to, you know, to transitioning into being this sort of like mass market power player, the light nation deal, you know, launching do say, and I'm on to Brynjolf and all of that, you know, to have o wnership and to get paid and to continue to be, you know, musically relevant at the same time throughout it all. I mean, yeah, I think, that it's, pretty clear why Jay Z is number one. And, you know, I don't think anybody would really argue with that except for maybe Diddy.

[01:30:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, he does the most. I think that you've seen him. You've seen him succeed with ownership. You've seen him succeed with partnerships at the highest levels. We've seen him navigate difficult business relationships. We've seen him make mistakes as well with things that he may be oversaw, but was able to still think through and come out somewhat ahead.

Speaking specifically about title and some of the things there, even in the failures, you could still see the through line about why he thought this was the best way to go about things. I think that. Not a surprise. And I think he definitely deserves to be at the top of the list for sure. A hundred percent.

[01:31:12] Zack Greenburg: And, you know, as far as looking at everybody's career and who you can kind of learn the most from everybody on here, you can learn something from and, you can learn from their successes, but I think it's also worth looking at what didn't work and how did they respond? You know, and, Jay Z likes to say a loss and a loss, it's a lesson.

And, you know, he's out there taking chances and, it doesn't always work. And I think earlier in his career, he only wanted to show you the parts that did work, and now he's kind of willing to, you know, show you the whole package. But, you know, itt certainly helps, when you're married to the biggest star in the world, arguably.

but look, I think both of them have been very smart about that relationship and how they leverage it to get into things like they have this big Tiffany's campaign, you know, certainly their real estate portfolio has improved together with, you know, the addition of this, like, I think they just got a 200 million house in Malibu and stuff like that.

So, I think with Jay, the way he handles every relationship, every release, it all builds toward the next thing. And, yeah, he's a chess player. He's thinking 10 steps ahead and, you know, it, kind of makes you wonder like, what is his next big step? I know he's, gotten a lot of big paychecks recently selling half of, Armand de Brignac and doing a joint venture there with LVMH, he's got a, huge check, I think around 700 million, for his stake in D'Ussé Cognac. So I'm particularly interested in, you know, what it is that he's kind of building up his war chest, to get next. And, I've heard rumors that it might be in, soccer, or in American football.

so we'll see. I mean, it could be any one of those things, but you know, don't be surprised when we check in 50 years, if he's like, you know, Jeff Bezos territory,

maybe sooner.

[01:32:47] Dan Runcie: and again, the fact that he's been able to help the people around him and make them successful too. He had that line that, song boss with Beyonce on that, album they put out together where he's like, here, we say you're broke if everybody, or here, you're not successful. We say everybody's broke except for you.

I know I butchered the line. I forget exactly what it is, but it's something like that. It's It's very similar to the pound cake line that he had had as well. So, at the end of the day, that speaks to his ability to do that. so yeah, this was really fun and it was really interesting to go through the list.

And now that we're done with at least that part of the list, now, were there any snubs on your end? I know we talked about a lot of the placement of particular people, but was there anyone, ah, that wasn't on the list that we didn't talk about at all today, that you were like, man, like wish that person had gotten in?

[01:33:35] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I thought it was kind of surprising that DJ Khaled wasn't on here. I voted for him. I ranked him fairly highly, you know, I don't see why he would be off, but somebody like TI or even Rick Ross would be on, you know, having this hand in a lot of different things. I think also on a social media perspective, he's been really front of the pack.

So, yeah, I would put Khaled up there. I think RZA belongs up here too. some of the things he's done. You know, just like being the mastermind of the Wu Tang Clan period is, you know, kind of mogul, mogul move to kind of like come up with that idea. And, you know, unite all these guys from Staten Island under the banner of Kung Fu and hip hop.

It's like, what? They talk about something new and different, you know, and his hand in. And, you know, the secret album, once upon a time in Shaolin and, you know, all the things that that led to, and, you know, hip hop is already collectibles. It's just kind of like debates in the industry. so I think, RZA deserves a look. but, would be the two that kind of stick out to me as, you know, I think probably deserve a spot on here, but, but not quite enough people shared my views here.

[01:34:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's a good one. I think to discuss someone that hasn't necessarily came in, I'll talk about 2 people. They're more recent people in the game, but I do think that a lot of people have been inspired by what they've done. 1 is Ghazi and what he's been able to do at empire specifically from a record label perspective.

But, you know, we started that at a point where a lot of people didn't even think it was viable to have a business where you were more than a just typical distributor, but you were still offering artists to at least maintain whether it's their masters or have just flexible record contracts where it's like, okay, let's partner on this project.

Let's partner on this and we see how fragmented music is now. And I think they were clearly ahead in some ways with that. And I think that works to their advantage too. And similarly, J Cole was someone who got on this list, but I think I'd actually give a shout out to his business partner. And CEO of DreamVille, Eib Hamad and what they've been able to do.

They're really trying to bring a platform. And I think in many ways, one of the things that DreamVille is, and other labels have navigated, how do you work to build a platform beyond the breakout star that you have? So that was another name that, that came to mind.

[01:35:50] Zack Greenburg: for sure. no, those, all make sense to me as well.

[01:35:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and then on this note, I think it was interesting because now that we're reflecting on the list, there's a few trends that I wanted to call out to get your thought on 1 was the placement of producers. And this is a 2 part question because 1, I do think that producers, especially the super producers in hip hop did quite well.

If we're looking at this list, just to kind of name through the names. Dr. Dre number 2. Kanye West number 8. Where's Swiss Beats here? We have Pharrell, of course, at 22 and we have Swiss Beats at 27 and I'm probably forgetting a couple of people there. Do you think there's something specific about producers as a job?

That makes them either more likely, or that has or any commonality with those folks and why that may line up with their placement on a list like this.

[01:36:45] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think a lot of the people who are producers are, you know, some of the time are there because, you know, they didn't quite take off as lyricists the same way. Although some people disagree with this, look at Dre, okay, fine. But like Dre was always a better producer than he was a lyricist. Puff was always a better producer than he was a lyricist.

Swizz was always a better producer than he was a lyricist. I mean. You know, you could, hot take, but like, you could argue that with Kanye too, I mean, that's less of a slight to Kanye's lyricism and more of like, just a praise for his production. But think that, you know, when let's say, being a lyricist, isn't your calling card, whether it's production or something else, you have to make yourself viable in other ways.

And I think that, especially as a producer, you're often involved, you know, more in the business side and, you know, what are the splits going to look like, who's got the publishing, all of that, you kind of necessarily end up. More in local territory, whereas it's easier maybe to just be a recording artist and to take checks from your label.

it's sort of like, you know, kind of comes to the territory more when you're involved in the production side of things.

[01:37:47] Dan Runcie: I think that last piece is key because you are more cognizant of the splits. You are a bit of the maestro of making sure everything works out the same way that it does to be able to do that there, which maybe speaks to some of the reason why, you know, you mentioned Cal it as someone that. Probably would have expected to see a little bit higher, although his work as a producer is a little bit different than some of the folks that we mentioned here, but people that are on the younger side that I do think have a lot in common with the folks you mentioned here to be interested to see where will someone like Zaytoven, Metro Boomin, Mike Wilmated, some of the super producers or close to it of the streaming era that we've seen, will we see them be able to make Those moves in the future of the people that I mentioned, I think Metro Boomin is probably the closest there.

Of course, he recently sold his catalog. I think that he's someone that seems to move a little bit different. He's releasing his own albums that do have his own beat production there in a way where Mike Will and Zaytoven strike me a little bit more as being purely entrusted in the musical aspect of things.

[01:38:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, and I think if we're talking about, you know, younger individuals, who, you know, you might see on this list in 10 years, or maybe even you could have seen them now, but, I think, you know, Travis Scott, and Tyler, the creator are two names that I would point to, Travis Scott, I think probably got dinged for, you know, what happened, you know, at, at his festival.

And, you know, that's like kind of a big, you know, impediment for people to throw on the list. But, you know, those kinds of concerns didn't. It stopped them from listing other folks who had some pretty serious, you know, kind of like moral, asterisks around, around their names.

So I think what Travis has done with Cactus Jack, You know, he was really on the, sort of on the Kanye path from a commercial perspective and, you know, let's see how it goes with this new utopia rollout. But yeah, I think people have kind of a short memory and are willing to move on.

And, you know, he could be back in the conversation again soon. And I think Tyler, the creator too. I mean, I think he's another one, you know, whether it's music festivals or, clothing, you know, he's definitely got a hand in. a bunch of really interesting different businesses and, you know, maybe part of it, maybe he ends up more like in the Pharrell kind of position where it's not necessarily quite as mainstream, but it's, widely respected and, you know, lucrative and popular. So I could see the two of them moving up here in years to come.

[01:40:13] Dan Runcie: And Tyler too is unique because he spoke to an audience of fans and people that weren't being spoken to in that same type of way, right? Everyone else is trying to speak to the aspirational cool person. Tyler said himself, he was reaching the outcasts. He was reaching the people that would go on late night runs to Taco Bell and stuff like that.

And that was an audience that hip hop mainstream hip hop was reaching. So I think that speaks a lot to his success there. So, final question here, which I think is a good one and you posted right before we started recording this mogul list is very representative in a lot of ways of who the greatest artists are that happened to be successful in business.

And the question was up to interpretation in many ways. But if you were picking a team or a few people, whether it's people we've mentioned or people we haven't mentioned to run your mogul empire. Who would make your list? Let's say if there's 3 to 4 names that come to mind of who would make your list, who would it be?

[01:41:13] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think the boring answer is Jay Z, and that's probably, you know, most people's answer because that's why, you know, he got so many first place votes, but, you know, looking through the top 20, I mean, there are a lot of people who would not want running my mogul empire, but, you know, if I had to pick three, let's say out of the top 20, or maybe even the whole list, I think, I'd probably go like Jay, Lyor, and Sylvia Robinson, because they all just get shit done one way or the other.

They're all individually brilliant, creative, Machiavellian, you know, like, they all kind of like pushed the line on a lot of things, but they didn't cross it fully, in my opinion, at least compared to some of the other people, on the list, you know, at least in a, like, something is illegal kind of way, you know, or I guess anywhere you look there's always these debates, but I think that all three exhibit a certain level of, you know, in different degrees, like you need something done.

They're going to get it done. You're not worried that they're going to let their ego get in the way, you know, they could be the star or it could be the Jordan or the Pippin. and they have the talent to get it done, you know, no matter what it is that you need done. So I probably go with those three as my top.

What about you?

[01:42:23] Dan Runcie: I feel like we have a similar minded list. So I would have Sylvia Robinson as the board chair. I want someone that can control those stakeholders, make sure that we're good and also just keep a good eye and keep the company in check as well. I would want Jay to be president of the company because I think as president, it's good to have someone that.

Can be a bit of the public salesperson can get the right amount of support for buy in can be included in particular sales pitches for an actual CEO. I'll take Lyor again. I think the shrewdness, the no fucks given in a lot of ways. But still having a calling card to be able to get people aligned with is important.

And I'll take, Steve Stout is my CMO and I'll have Jay Prince as a special advisor to help address any of

the issues or anything like that. that's the

dream team.

[01:43:11] Zack Greenburg: I like that. I like that one. Yeah.

[01:43:14] Dan Runcie: All right. Well, Zack, anything else, that we should mention before we close things out on the hip hops, 50 greatest mogul list.

[01:43:22] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, you know, I think it's interesting to reflect in the context of hip hop's 50th anniversary. And, you know, when you look at sort of some of the pioneers, who started it all, you know, really there aren't any other than Sylvia who were there at the very beginning. And even then you could argue, you know, she came kind of five years late.

So, you know, I hope that over the, you know, over the rest of the year, some of these folks do start to get their flowers in the mainstream in a way that they haven't before. You know, whether it's Herc or Flash or, you know, some of the other people, Kaz, who are sort of around Grand Wizard Theodore, you know, some people like that who haven't gotten maybe quite their due.

So, you know, I would look for that, through the year. And that's kind of a hope of mine. And, you know, I mean, yeah, none of them really got to be. Let's say, they didn't get to partake in the spoils in the way that some of the people who came in a later did. So that, that would be my one, final thought as we head into this rest of the summer of celebration of the 50th anniversary.

[01:44:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I'm excited. I think it was great to be able to use as an opportunity to reflect, to be able to highlight and think more broadly about it. There's been so many different types of 50, this 50, that list, and I'm sure we'll see more of them as well. I think that this 1 is a bit unique because of all the factors that we brought into and how varied the list was and how we brought more people into this process, as opposed to just having, of course, there's a form of this. That was just you and I talking it out and making sure that where we thought things made sense, but it was really good to be able to include some of the pioneers and some of the leaders themselves in this.

So with that salute to hip hop and everything that is created, and obviously you and I being able to have work in this industry as well. So shout out, know, it's a privilege and honor to be able to contribute and offer something like this.

[01:45:07] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Privilege and honor indeed. So, yeah, it's a lot of fun and good to get, you know, good to be able to look back a little bit.

[01:45:13] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Thanks, man. Appreciate it.

[01:45:15] Zack Greenburg: All right, Dan, have a good one.

[01:45:16] Dan Runcie: You too.

[01:45:17] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast.

Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 6411 no The State of the Middle-Class Artist https://www.trapital.com/podcast Episode title: The State of the Middle-Class Artist The “middle class musician” is a popular talking point in the industry. Several platforms have been built to serve this group.  But what exactly is a middle-class musician? How can they get ahead when the major companies are incentivized to support the superstars? How does the 1000 True Fans theory apple here? And which companies do a great job of serving them today?  I talked to Tati Cirisano of MIDiA Research to break it all down. Here’s everything we covered this episode: 0:44 How much money does a middle-class musician take home? 9:05 How the 1,000 True Fans theory works in the steaming era  16:06 Why platforms struggling to serve middle class  18:33 What fans actually want from artist-specific subscriptions  21:23 How touring is for the middle class artists 23:21 Artists catalogs generating $20k+ from Spotify  26:25 Good data vs bad data 28:49 MIDiA’s Bandsintown return to live study 34:39 Why Pandora struggled to serve the middle class  36:18 Is serving middle-class musicians a viable business model?  48:13 Will middle-class musicians have it easier in 20 years? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Tati Cirisano, @tatianacirisano This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Tati Cirisano: If an artist is trying to sell them something for 300 just so that they make 50 or whatever it is that translates to the fan as them having to spend so much money just to prove that they're a fan of the artist. So we don't want to. harvest people's fandom, we want to cultivate it. And the current industry makes it hard to fulfill that promise. [00:00:17] Dan Runcie Audio Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:44] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is about the state of the middle class artists. It's a very different world than it was 20, 25 years ago. If you talk to artists back then, who are now frustrated with the current model, they'll tell you that the nineties and the eighties were a great time for middle class artists. You could sell a few tens of thousands of CDs per year. You could still bring home enough for you and your band and others to earn a living off of that. But those economics get a lot harder in the streaming era where you need millions of streams, if not more. Just to make that same revenue that you did 25 years ago. But because of the streaming era that we're in now, it's also opened up many more opportunities for different revenue streams, both in real life and through digital communities and online marketplaces and things like that. So with all of that change, all that dynamic. Where does that leave us? So for today's episode, I'm joined by Tati Sirisano. She's dug into this topic specifically with some of her work at Media Research and a lot of the analysis she's done on fandom. So where are we with middle class musicians? What does it mean to be a middle class musicians? And for all of the platforms out there that are aiming to serve middle class musicians, who's actually doing it well? Let's dive in. [00:02:00] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is all about the middle class musician. This is a group of artists that is often talked about in the industry from all of the companies, all of the services that are trying to help artists, but how many of them are actually serving artists and doing it in a meaningful way? And I'm here to talk about it with someone who's talked about and read about this topic herself, Tati Cirisano, welcome back to the pod. [00:02:26] Tati Cirisano: Thanks, Dan. I'm excited. I love a thorny topic and there are many thorns to this one. A lot of contradictions, a lot of really, I don't know, interesting viewpoints. So I'm excited to get into it. [00:02:39] Dan Runcie: So first let's define middle class musician. When you hear the term, when you use the term yourself. What are you referring to? How do you define that group? [00:02:49] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. Well, it's, funny because if you think about a middle class musician as someone who's earning a sustainable living wage from their music, there's very few artists as we know, that actually do that. Like some of the successful, you know, relatively well-known artists that we listen to might not even fit into that description. so I think it is, you know, a pretty small group. but that's what I would define it as, I guess if we're being technical about it, is it's someone who is able to actually, earn a full-time living from their music career. And, when we look at, you know, at media, we do a lot of creator surveys. and when we look at, you know, how many creators fit into that. when we did our last creator survey in the UK and the US, we got, about 19% of everyone who filled out. Our survey was actually doing it full time. That doesn't necessarily mean they're making a living wage, but that means that this is, you know, what they're doing for, you know, their main career and the average income was about $46, 000. So that's kind of what I see when I think of the term, I guess. [00:03:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think the sweet spot. I've thought about that as the floor to 50, 000 that you are earning from your music related activities. And I say that specifically because I think this is where some of the difference of the term and its interpretation is for years, people used to look at that number specifically think about it in terms of what is derived specifically from your music revenue. You being able to sell CDs, sell physical albums. How much of it comes from there today? Obviously, the economics are flipped and it is. Quite challenging for artists, especially if you don't own the rights to your music to be able to earn that level of money stand alone from CD sales, unless you're complimenting it with another revenue source. So that's a bit that's why I mentioned music related things, because artists, at least now do make more from touring and we'll get into that a bit more. They also have merch and other things that they still did have in. The nineties and other eras before, but some of these things have expanded and there's now all of these digital, so you have the IRL experiences, the IRL experiences too, and if that can combine and you're making, let's say at least $50,000 in profit, I would say so take home expenses of, or take home revenue of what you actually have versus up to let's say $150,000. That's how I've defined middle class musician. If you're earning more than that, then you're definitely at that closer to that tip of the spear. I don't know if the numbers would exactly put you in, let's say the 1%. I think there might be even a little bit of gap below that, but that's how I've roughly looked at it. So even though I know that. Every year, Spotify has its breakdown on how many artists catalogs generate this certain amount. And the math there is roughly been okay. You can multiply that number by 4 and that can give you an idea of what the total recorded music revenue is. That's still only 1 source that doesn't include all the other sources that are there. So there's a bunch of ways. And I think a lot of people out there do feel like you should be able to be a middle class musician. If you're earning solely from the music recording itself, but I do like to think of it a bit more broadly and that's how I've defined it [00:06:19] Tati Cirisano: No, definitely. I realized that I answered that question thinking about it that way without even realizing it because it's so common now that I mean, I think earning a full time living from your music alone and not these other things, all these other things around it is nearly impossible for a lot of today's artists. And when we look at, you know, in the research. Most of these artists are learning from a really fragmented mix of income streams, right? There isn't just like one thing that is their main source of income. They tend to have a hand in all these different places from, education to sync to performing, producing for other artists and things like that. So we hear a lot. There's this need to kind of have all the wheels spinning all the time. And usually the sources of income that, are maybe more important are the ones that actually are not about your music itself. So that's a really good, that's a really important distinction to make for sure. [00:07:14] Dan Runcie: Because I think what you're calling out and it's true is that what people enjoyed about the CD era was that there was 1 item that you could purchase in that 10 to 20 dollar range and that benefited. Those artists who could then get at least, let's say, 4 to 5 for every 20 CD that's sold. They then keep that and then that you just do the math on that even if you're splitting that up amongst 4 band members, there's still a lot there and technology has this pattern of making it more advantageous for the people who are already on top, not necessarily the people that are trying to get there. And I think this is some of the challenges that certain startups in the space have had, because several of them have tried to serve this middle class audience with the belief that technology does connect us and technology does do all those things, but we've seen it more likely or not just the way that things have been set up so far and streaming, but also in other aspects of the creator economy and people making a living off of the internet, one way or another, it does tend to benefit those that do happen to be the most successful, so that's why I think you calling out the way things are, whether it's people selling merch or people selling vinyl or people selling unique items, or even back in the NFT phase where people were selling more of those is unique items or concert tickets more broadly that gets you back to the opportunity to compensate the quote unquote, middle class artists more because it's a fan having that 1 to 1 relationship where they're spending the high and they're spending their money on the high end product to get whatever it is in a way. That's very different from getting some pro rata distribution of their 1099 monthly subscription to 1 of the streaming services. [00:09:05] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, and I think in music, especially we've really seen this, like the thousand true fans theory, kind of gained popularity over the past year or two years and really have to run up against streaming economics where scale is the only thing that matters. So I think, you know, if you were selling CDs in the nineties and you had a really small, but dedicated fan base, you could earn money off of that. you could make a decent living off of that. but now there aren't that many ways to actually, monetize a core fan base around the music itself. I mean, you're not doing that on streaming. so I think, you know, streaming definitely delivered on the promise of. allowing more artists to be heard, but it the income side of that didn't really catch up by opening the door to everyone. It just gave way to so much oversaturation and so much fragmentation that, it kind of breaks the pro rata streaming model. [00:09:57] Dan Runcie: And I think that most people listening to this probably do generally understand why it's hard to do that with streaming. You literally need millions of streams per month in order to be able to reach those thresholds. And that's just very hard to do. However, if we also look at the platforms that are intended to be more creator friendly or more independent. Artist friendly or more middle class musician friendly, even those still struggle to hit those numbers. One of the highly publicized numbers from Patreon, of course, this is now looking at all creators, not necessarily musicians, but only 2% of the creators that use Patreon are earning more than 50, 000 annually from their Patreon. So again, just to make sure that we're covering all the bases, not all of the money that a middle class musician needs to make needs to come from Patreon in order to be a middle class musician. But it's another highlight where even though now we're taking away the streaming dynamic, you now have this product where most of the people are selling something on Patreon for one, five, 10 per month. It still doesn't quite. Offer that opportunity. So what do you think the disconnect is there? Because I know patrons 1 example, but there's other similar platforms that offer those types of things, but haven't quite been able to get [00:11:23] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. I mean, I think that it all kind of goes back to with all of these platforms that so long as streaming economics are only benefiting superstars. We can't really serve the middle class musician because even if those artists are earning a decent amount of money by, you know, making cameo videos for their fans or having some subscribers on Patreon, they're still forced to monetize everything around the music rather than the music itself. They still aren't really able to fully capitalize on monetizing core fandom. Even as it's been interesting, like even as the industry, I think, has really started to galvanize around this idea of monetizing fandom and how important it is, especially in how fragmented listenership is today to not just focus on building these mass passive audiences, but focus on a core fan base. but again, that's running up directly against streaming economics, which is part of the reason why there's now finally a call, I think, from all sides of the industry to change things. But I think that I really feel like the more I think about it, I just come back to that as long as the ways the solutions that we're giving to these so called middle class musicians are about monetizing things around their music, we're still never really realizing the full potential of what they could do by monetizing their fan base around the music. Maybe that's like a simplistic answer, but I just, I just keep coming back to that. [00:12:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think 1 of the challenges with tools like Patreon and others is that. They're still similar to the streaming services selling a monthly subscription product and it's quite incentivized to be able to do that because they are SAS companies. They're trying to sell subscriptions companies that have strong MRR do get better valuations. And these are companies that are ultimately trying to exit. And we saw a company like Patreon, I believe the valuation hit 4 billion in the peak of the pandemic, just when everyone was going wild about the creator economy. And we've since seen that and many others come back down to earth. But the thing is a lot of those platforms it's based on that take rate and the take rate, even though I think the take rate for a platform like a Patreon may have been relatively low. It still incentivizes the power law to take over where those platforms are going to succeed based on having a few of those power users in that 2% that make up over 60, 70% of the revenue, if not more. And then you run into the same dynamic that you have on Spotify, where you see a similar dynamic there in terms of it's that small 1% of the people on top that make up everything. And whenever you have that type of dynamic, it's hard to shake that. And I think, especially given when you add on to it, any of these new platforms that do end up taking venture capital, there are incentives to have certain types of business models and certain types of approaches. So, I do think that that's an aspect. And then also just the fact that it is limiting itself to that 1 type of subscription that 1 time you're paying that artist or person on a regular basis and it's hard to do that compared to, let's say, the way it was when you're buying CDs, when you could go to Sam Gooding, you could buy 10 CDs if you want, you could buy one CD if you want, and I think that's where merch and vinyl and even platforms like Bandcamp and others get a bit more to that thing, where you're not limited on the quantity of how much you can buy from the thing, and it does allow a bit more of that individual transaction, which is what I think that Middle class musicians, artists really need in order to succeed. How can you make it infinite that someone can buy more of your stuff? [00:15:15] Tati Cirisano: Right, right. And I think in addition to all of this, there's just these like underlying dynamics of how fragmented the market is, how competitive, the entertainment landscape is, how, you know, streaming has sort of inadvertently encouraged listeners to be a bit more passive, I think, over the past 10 years. So we're now in this situation where even if you decide as an artist to, you know, build this core fan base and you have all the right tools to monetize it, it's still just really, really hard to break through and, gather, you know, enough people around your music and sustain their attention and get them to be active fans. Like I think, the competitiveness and the fragmented nature of the market is just underlying all of this. [00:16:05] Dan Runcie: So let's actually dig into that with the, Kevin Kelly's a thousand true fans theory that you mentioned. What do you think is the thing that's making that difficult? I know you mentioned the competitive piece, so maybe let's get into some of the specifics because in theory. If you were using a service like a Patreon or whatever, if you combine all of these things, can you have a thousand people paying you eight, nine dollars a month? And then that equals your a hundred thousand dollars like what is making that difficult? Like how big of an artist do you need to be for that to actually be a reality? [00:16:39] Tati Cirisano: Well, right. That's the thing is that there's just so much music out there and people are spreading their listening across more artists, more songs than ever. I think it's really hard to actually get a meaningful number of subscribers for something like that. And also people that are going to stick around. I think another thing with the subscription, like the artists for artists, specific subscriptions, the monthly cycle doesn't really align with the pace of consumption and fandom where, people are. I think it's natural that you're fandom of an artist rises and falls over time as you know, a new artist captures your attention or something else is happening in your life or whatever, but I think that pace is accelerating and it might happen in two weeks. Whereas it used to happen in two months or six months. So I just think it's, really hard to actually galvanize people around a monthly subscription, but something else that's interesting that actually comes from our recent research and we have a report coming out on this. soon. Is that when we ask people what they actually want from artist specific subscriptions, the things that come out on top are not what you expect and aren't what most artists are going for. So I think most artists have been doing, you know, behind the scenes content or I'll hop on and do a Q&A with you or you get access to a community of other fans and those things actually come out towards the bottom. What comes out on top is just exclusive access to music, being able to hear music that nobody else can hear or being able to hear it early and same thing for merchandise and same thing for tickets. So fans already have too much content out there that they have access to. They don't necessarily want to pay for more. And so instead, what they really want is just to get what they're already enjoying faster or before everyone else, or in a way that is exclusive to them. So yeah, I have a lot of thoughts as you can see on like subscriptions specifically.  But I think that, you know. It's ironic because the thousand true fans theory model is what a lot of artists need these days because it is in some ways a way to cut through the fragmentation is building a core fan base, making really deep, long lasting connections. But it's also really just really hard to do that in today's landscape. [00:18:57] Dan Runcie: Why do you think there's a disconnect there? I mean, based on the insights that you're sharing, why couldn't an artist be like, okay, well, if that's what the fans want, then why not give them the exclusive access? Why are artists leading towards behind the scenes. [00:19:11] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. I mean, I think that I don't blame them because I think social media has kind of taught artists to just give more content all the time. And there's probably this assumption that that's what you need to capture attention. I think there's also a long history of streaming services and labels being uncomfortable with like exclusive content. I mean, I think that's why we're at a point these days where all streaming services have the same catalogs. So I think in the past, maybe it's been hard to justify that type of like, like windowing like remember when windowing kind of had a moment and then it went away. So I don't know, maybe it's time to reconsider that. And maybe the market would be a bit more open to that idea now. So artists, if you're listening to this try it out. [00:20:00] Dan Runcie: Right? Because you would like to think in theory that if an artist is independent, it's their choice on what they want to do independently versus not. But we also know it's very tough for an independent artist to even reach these levels to be able to get there, right? And I think this gives this is a good segue into another piece of the discussion, which is a lot of the music distribution services that have popped up and got in a lot more funding recently are specifically trying to be a alternative to the financing that record labels offer, whether you look at a company like a beet bread or into fire stem or United masters, these companies are offering advances in exchange for this. And sometimes the advances can start quite small, but still, at least on most of them, I think there's some minimum threshold you need on, let's say, a Spotify to have 10, 000 monthly listeners on the service, and even that, while it may not seem like a lot compared to the 1% of superstar artists, it still could be a lot, especially if you look at that compared to a lot of the artists that are these quote unquote, middle class artists that we're talking about. There's just such a divide where, because there's so much noise out there, you can feel like there is, it can be quite difficult to even take full advantage of those services because of the levels you need to be in order to get there. And I feel with that, it's probably a good chance for us to talk about touring because I think that's the other piece. We know that for a lot of artists now, let's say, whether it's, you know, depending on the artists, it could be, you know, as low as 30, but as high as 70% or even more of their revenue that comes directly from touring and especially since the economics of the current cycle that we're in have flipped where artists no longer, like, not everything is no longer the loss of leader in order to sell more CDs streaming. And other things are the thing that's done to sell more tour tickets. And that's essentially what we're getting back to you, right? How do you get fans to buy that 1 thing? But we're seeing that touring as well just like streaming, just like Patreon, just like any of these other things, even though they have a slightly different business model, it all becomes subject to the power law and how demand looks at it. Because you look at the superstars at the top level, we're talking about how Taylor Swift and maybe Beyonce are going to have the first billion dollar tours ever. And meanwhile, the artists that are in this quote, unquote, middle class artists bucket, many of them are struggling to sell out shows. Even the artists who are stars, but not quite superstars are canceling tours left and right. It's very tough to be able to do that. And that's another piece there because I feel like for years, that was always the retort you would hear. Well, they could make money on tour. Well, they could do this. Well, that's becoming a tougher thing for artists that aren't performing in front of thousands, several thousands of people on a regular basis. [00:22:56] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. I mean, they're struggling to sell out tours and they're also struggling to finance them to begin with. I mean, there've been so many artists that canceled before their tours even really got started selling tickets because they said, I crunched the numbers and I just can't afford this. So even if you are an artist that has demand for your shows, it can be really hard to, actually make touring sustainable for yourself. [00:23:21] Dan Runcie: Agreed, and maybe just to look at some rough numbers here, because I think it would be helpful. I pulled up, Spotify's loud and clear that they have their breakdown on the number of artists that are earning certain things and if we do some ballpark math here, so they said in 2022, there were 91, 000 artists that had catalogs that were generating at least 5, 000 dollars a year. And if you multiply that by 4, accounting for other streaming services, accounting for other recorded revenue streams, that then brings you to 20, 000 dollars. A few things to keep in mind, though, this doesn't include publishing. This doesn't include other things as well. That could also increase the revenue for artists, but it also is just about the artist catalog generated. So it doesn't Account for record label deals and things like that. So if we were to even take a number like this, and let's roughly call it 50%, even at that point, you combine that with the, let's say, they're making the equivalent on the live side, but on live. The percentage that the promoters and others that you're partnered with isn't nearly as high as it is on the recorded revenue side. So just to add some context for this. I mean, we're talking about less than 100, 000 people worldwide. And that number may even be generous there because there's this doesn't account like record label splits and all those things and so it's a tough world out there. [00:24:52] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. Wait. And can you back that up for so it's a 90, 000 are earning what? [00:24:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, so according to Spotify's loud and clear report, 91, 200 artists, those are the number of recording artists whose catalogs generated recording and publishing royalties over 5, 000 alone on Spotify. Yeah, and then Spotify's ballpark is that if you multiply that number by 4, that gives you all of the revenue streams overall. So you could use that to say 20, 000. [00:25:25] Tati Cirisano: Right. Right. Yeah. No, and as we know, that does, like you said, it does gloss over a lot of nuances. So it's probably a little bit different and very different, in practice. But I think the other thing talking about touring. and the struggle of a lot of these, you know, middle class artists to sell shows is another unintended consequence of streaming is how song focused the music landscape we live in is now where a lot of artists will have a viral song or they'll have, you know, a popular song, but not that many people will actually discover the artists beyond that, or become a fan of their wider catalog to the point where they want to buy a ticket. And I think that that's what's driving a lot of these sort of awkward tour cancellations that we've seen where an artist may think, or their team may think, based on the success of a couple of songs, they have a big enough fan base to sell tour tickets, and they might not. So I think the metrics for touring are getting a lot murkier. [00:26:25] Dan Runcie: This is why what's happening right now with as it relates to socials, streaming and touring data, the more data has actually made people worse at the jobs, I think, to some extent. And I mean, I can't say that factually, I would need to look at some data to truly be able to prove that. But I do question whether or not it is helped in a lot of ways, Because of everyone is programmed to algorithms in the 3rd way. You could think that you're seeing someone everywhere. So let's just use I spice as an example. If you feel like, okay, in the circles of every time you open your phone, you see, I spice this, you see, I spice that you think that I spice could probably sell Madison square garden based on just what you may perceive to be people that are really in the industry. Probably know that that isn't the case. But even for those people in the industry that are making decisions, there could still be that disconnect to your point. And I think just going back again to the point you made earlier about the whole thousand true fans thing. That's what I think makes that tough because you brought up the point earlier about why, yeah, it's hard to have a recurring purchase with anything, especially when it's hard for anyone to capture the attention. I think recurring purchases can make sense for products like Netflix or Spotify, when they are the interface between all of these other products that we see on a regular basis, at least from a mass consumer perspective. And I know that in investing and finance and other circles, or even in music, there definitely trade publications out there that could justify it because it is offering education related information. But I think that again, how can you get back to that a 100 dollars from 1000 people looking more like. An actual 1 time purchase thing, or 1 time purchase things that you're purchasing. But again, even if you're trying to get someone to purchase 1 t shirt, 1 concert ticket, 2 albums, this, that, and all of those things net your earnings become, a hundred dollars per fan, that's still a lot. Like, how can you do all that and capture the attention you have because you could be asking someone to spend $300 just so that nets out to you, to the artist as $100 and at least the last I see, you know, it's even tailoring Beyonce may not, aren't netting that on the average ticket sale for their concerts because of the resellers and because of, you know, various fees and just all the other people involved. It's very tough to get there. [00:28:49] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. No. And the other thing that we don't want to do is just, you know, squeeze every dollar that we can out of the fans. Like when you use that example of the fan doesn't realize like what, you know, how the money trickles or doesn't trickle back down to the artist. If an artist is trying to sell them something for 300 just so that they make 50 or whatever it is that translates to the fan as them having to spend so much money just to prove that they're a fan of the artist. So I think that's the other side to this is we don't want to. harvest people's fandom. we want to cultivate it. And yeah, the current industry makes it hard hard to fulfill that promise. But the other thing I wanted to bring up before we get deeper into that, another interesting data point, that's sort of a counterpoint to some of this, which is, so at media, we just released a report in partnership with bands in town where we surveyed their users about their experiences with live music. It's a great report, I think it's like one of the, most comprehensive of like post pandemic live audiences that we've seen. So just a quick plug, but the data in it, we were interested in understanding, if superstar tours are becoming so expensive, does that mean that audiences are splurging their entire budget for the year for tickets on that, you know, Taylor Swift tour? And then they don't have anything left to go to the smaller shows that they would normally go to. And our hypothesis was that would be the case, but we actually didn't see that in the data. We saw two things, one is that the audiences who are going to smaller shows tend to be different from the ones that are like going to these, you know, arena and, stadium tours anyway. So they're actually less likely to be bothered by things like rising prices and added fees, because the shows that they're going to aren't as impacted by those issues anyway. And then the other, really interesting question we asked was if we gave you a 300 budget for concert tickets for the year, What would you spend it on? And we gave them four options and nearly half said that they would buy tickets of a few tickets for mid tier artist shows and about a quarter said they'd buy many tickets for many smaller shows. So that's already 75% of the audience. And then the rest were split up between splurging on like a Taylor Swift ticket or putting the money towards a festival. So when push comes to shove and people are forced to decide where to spend their limited tickets budget, they actually weren't, the most likely to go for, you know, the superstar shows, which was not what I expected. And I don't know if that has to do. Yeah, I don't know if that has to do partly with the fragmentation that I'm always talking about. And where I was talking about that, you know, people are actually starting to listen more to these sort of cult stars and not just a handful of big names that people are kind of spreading their listening and these mid tier artists are getting larger fan bases. That could be a part of it. it could just be people being a bit more, you know, pragmatic when they are forced to answer this question in this way. But yeah, I thought that was really interesting. [00:31:43] Dan Runcie: That makes me think of two things. Let's go back to the first board, just in terms of the slightly different audience profile of the big splurger versus the several shows. This is anecdotal, but most of the people I know that are frequent concert goers of smaller mid tier, maybe middle class musician artists, or maybe even slightly higher than that. They're not necessarily posting the shows on Instagram. They're not necessarily discussing it. It's almost like part of their regular day or week like, oh, what do you do? Oh yeah. We went to a show on, Thursday at the independent of San Francisco was cool or something like that. Versus if someone's going to a Taylor Swift or Beyonce show, and I'd even put Coachella and some of these other experiences in there. You hear about it. It's as much the experience, the brand of the thing and why taking an international trip to go watch Beyonce's renaissance tour in Paris or in Amsterdam or doing something similar for a Taylor Swift tickets, or even getting all your friends together to go, you know, have the outfits ready for Coachella. I feel like there's that is almost a very different group. So that felt like at least some anecdotal inferences that feel like they line up with what you're saying. And I think that's right. They are 2 very different types of people. The 2nd point, though, I do have to say, I am, I'm a bit surprised by that, because part of me wondered, okay, is there a little bit of potential bias of what someone is projecting of what they want to be versus what they may actually be right? And then just a natural distribution of, you know, how many people in each of those groups from that 1st point, you mentioned. Were the survey group for the 2nd point, but, yeah, it's 1 of those things where, like, you know, I think, let's say a movie example for me. One of the only times I'd went to the movies this past year so far, and I'm someone that normally goes off on one of the only times I went this past year was to, you know, see Barbie and Oppenheimer, you know, like together and stuff. And if you would have asked me in the beginning of the year, oh, how often do I plan to go to the movies this year? I probably wouldn't be. Oh, I'm only going to go for the biggest weekend of the year. But like, that's what I ended up again. I'm just 1 person with an example, but like, that's what that made think of. [00:33:54] Tati Cirisano: You're absolutely right. Every time we ask a question that is like hypothetical like that, we have to remember that, people will always answer with like their most aspirational self. And maybe people see that and say, Oh, I like to think of myself as, you know, a true artist fan. And I would like to go to more smaller shows or I'm not splurging on the superstar of the festival.  So I think it does have to be taken with a grain of salt. I think the sample size is big enough. This was like nearly 3000 people and the numbers are pretty. like stark enough that I think it still gives us a sense that the majority of these live music audiences are wanting to go to the, or would prioritize those smaller shows, but you're absolutely right that every time we ask a question like this, we have to take it with a grain of salt. [00:34:39] Dan Runcie: Indeed. And 1 thing I do want to tap into as well. You mentioned this back when we were texting back and forth leading up to this. It's about Pandora. You mentioned how the founder there had built a service, ideally intending to serve the middle class. And I went back and found 1 of the quotes. I'll read it here. He said, this is 10 Western trend. He said, when I found Pandora, the purpose of it was to build a discovery engine for lesser known musicians. I wouldn't say we lost our way, but we got sucked into the music industrial complex vortex, which is quite the quote, but I feel like that music industrial complex vortex is probably a few things. One, I think their rights holders discussions and negotiations back and forth with the record labels were quite public in a way that more recent ones haven't been. So that's 1 thing. But 2, I think a lot of it stems back to. This whole power law dynamic that we've been talking about. So you take the two of those together, you're partnering with companies that want their 1% of music to rise above the ranks. And it's in your platform's best interest from a financial perspective to monetize that piece too, which just adds another layer to it. [00:35:56] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, I think that. All of this is the, you know, second order impacts of streaming that all of the platforms are dealing with Westergen was just the first person to admit it. I don't think that, you know, most streaming platforms are not going out there and talking about this in such, honest terms. So I think, you know, that quote just the first one to really say it publicly. [00:36:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. And I think with this too, the question I keep coming back to is the sad question that I do ask and wonder is. This a viable business model for a company? There are several companies that have raised money in recent years, on this goal of serving the artist middle class, and I think it is something that often sounds great and compelling as a calling card. You're able to show it and share it and pitch decks about how it is this underserved audience, especially if you talk about where most of the revenue is accrued, and you can talk about the long tail, but do you think that this is a viable business model? Or have we seen examples where this has worked in practice where? Yes, a company and to be clear, not even that a company has to do it solely like they can't serve anyone that is more successful than a middle class musician, but have they done so. [00:37:15] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, it's a really good question. So yeah, I was thinking about that too when we were, texting about this over. Does it actually even make sense to focus on this goal of, like, enabling a class of middle class musicians? Because I think sometimes, the very important conversations about making the music business more fair to creators, what gets lost in that is that the goal is not for everyone to be successful because that's just not the way that any industry works, that anything works, there's still always going to be a bit of a hierarchy. But we just want to make sure that the odds are not so stacked against creators, that things aren't so unfair and that it's not impossible, you know, to make, a living off this. but I think that for it to work, ideally there needs to be a way or probably monetize music fandom rather than just large audiences. And I think that's something that. The music industry as a whole is starting to understand. And I think that we might start to see, I mean, we're already having a lot of conversations about like what the next, streaming business model could look like, like user centric has been tossed out for that. and this idea of maybe active listenership, if you can determine whether someone is an active fan that, you know, listening might get more royalties than the passive fan. We're having these conversations. And I think, to your point earlier. Streaming put a cap on what you can spend as a fan. There isn't any extra thing that you can buy. If you're a super fan, everyone is paying 9.99. And there are examples of streaming services that have monetized fandom like if you look at Tencent and NetEase in China, like they earn more of their annual revenue from a small segment of super fans paying extra for features than they do from a way larger base of subscribers. And that's a whole other, you know, rabbit hole to go down because I don't know how that money is actually shaking out in terms of whether it's still mostly going to the biggest artists or, you know, how much is actually going down to the creators, but I think that, it's possible to build a streaming model that monetizes not just scale, but also fandom and that could be a really big game changer, for this middle class of artists. I also think that to do that, we need to recultivate fandom in the first place, because again, we've spent the past decade teaching people to listen passively. So we can't just, you know, like with user centric. You can't just slap that model on a Spotify because so many of their listeners are passive. It's not a place that breeds fandom or encourages people or gives them ways to be more active fans. So there's a lot of work to do, but I think that these conversations are happening in a way that they haven't, at least in, you know, so long as I've been studying this. So I think that's at least a good thing that we're confronting all of these issues. [00:40:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think a number of those things and it's likely 1 of those things where the individual thing itself may not make the huge bump itself, but the collection or the collective of them do help raise the gap, right? So 10 cent for years, tipping and things like that have worked well. And we've seen the success there. 1 of the pushbacks you've often heard is that, oh, well, western culture isn't as, you know, into that or into this or into that. And I'm like, well, I mean, do we really know that's true until you try it? I feel like the past year, all I've seen is more and more places where physical locations. I've never tipped anyone before turning that square or toast thing over to my direction. And then now they want me to go. Give a 20, 25, 30% tip. And I'm like, excuse me. So granted, I know this is a whole debate now that people have very strong opinions on, but if anything, that shows me that whether or not people may like it or not, there is some aspect of that. So whatever thing like that can be created for artists that taps into that guilt or that shame that gets people to also go along with the tipping, even if they may not want to, I mean, I hate wording it like that because that's probably just my opinion about how I feel about some of the merchant style tipping that has been introduced recently. But I say that to say that shows that there's examples of this that have been introduced. So I think about that on that side and then I think 2 on the, whether it's user centric streaming and things like that. I do think that whether it's sound cloud or title, or some of these other companies have shown some of the results. I think we'll see a few more soon as well. That do show the impact there. And I know that that's been another contentious thing with the record labels and others, but I do think that in the end, there's other things that, you know, can still level the playing field for everyone. The thing that I think a lot about is what the physical purchases look like. And we all know that vinyl and other physical formats have continued to increase, but I also feel like that's a bit subject to the superstar game as well. I don't know the answer to this question I'm about to ask, but if I was a middle class artist right now, I'm about to release my album and I wanted to have. A bunch of vinyl that was made for my fan base. Could I have that ready? The first week that my album comes out, could I have that out there knowing all of the supply chain and logistical issues that may still exist with vinyl? Because last time I checked the record labels and others were getting. Priority and they were more likely to give that priority to the Harry Styles and the Taylor Swift's and others that did have huge first week sales numbers, largely due to the vinyl that they were able to sell. So, is a middle class musician able to participate in that same way, at least upon the initial onset of their album release? I'm not sure, but things like that just make it easier for them to be able to monetize and capture that moment. [00:43:09] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. No, I'm, glad that you brought that up. And that reminds me of another thing, because I think you would also ask, like, as any company doing this or has any company done this? Well, and I feel like band camp is worth mentioning here, you know, I think a lot of artists see that as I've seen bandcamp as sort of a lifeline throughout a lot of these struggles and something else that's interesting about it, speaking of the whole tipping thing is. I think most albums or most, if you're going to band camp and you're buying a digital version of an album, there's nothing more of an expression of fandom because what are most of those people are going to do with that? They're really just doing it to support the artists because they probably already have a streaming subscription. They can listen to the album somewhere else, they don't need band camp for it. And I think a lot of artists as well. Put up their music or whatever. Yeah, yeah, when they put up their music on band camp, it's oftentimes pay what you want. And I remember, back when I was at Billboard, I did a big feature on Bandcamp, and I remember them telling me at the time that, the majority of fans pay more than asking. I don't know if that's still true, but that's a crazy stat! That the majority of fans are willing to pay more than asking when this is a pay what you want to purchase. So, you know, I think that's an example of this working. and people wanting to support their favorite artists purely to support them and maybe not even really getting, a vinyl album in return cause a lot of times it's just a digital download, but yeah, I think bandcamp deserves shouting out here. [00:44:33] Dan Runcie: They're a good 1 dimension to, because they stand a bit different in this dynamic of companies that have been raised or that have been started. They didn't necessarily start. I think that a lot of people have thought of band camp is almost this. Almost a bit of like a public utility or public good for the industry. I don't know if that's always the most fair definition, but I think people say that because it gets into this viability of business model and how long it can scale and things you can do. And I know they've since, I believe it was acquired by Epic games at least a couple years ago that that had happened. But I remember leading up to that people had wondered the same thing about band camp and it's just like you're saying a company, a platform that offer this opportunity, you want to buy the 1 thing. Great. You want to buy it as many times you want to pay even more for it, they make it easy on the website. They have band camp Fridays where they don't take the fee for things like there were things in place to make it happen, but it's 1 of those things where at the end of the day, I feel like the economics of convenience took over in a lot of ways for where the majority of people sat, but could you still do enough on the platform? And there definitely were success stories, which were cool to see, but it definitely wasn't necessarily the norm for all artists. So, when I think about it, collectively, I do think that it's viable to have a platform and have a business that does serve the middle class musician, and I think that it's probably more likely to be a platform that either relied on minimal outside funding or didn't, or was it invested by some of the biggest venture capital firms? And I say that not in any way against venture capital, but more so that the nature of those investments, they're trying to get 10 billion dollar exits from people, or they're trying to get 10Billion dollar exits from the companies they invest in, and they're not going to get that level of exit unless this is a consumer product. We'll talk about a consumer product. This is a consumer product that reaches everyone and can maximize that nth degree, which then makes it subject to the whole power law dynamic that we're then talking about. So I do think it can work for it. Like I said, whether it's bootstrapper and minimal funding company, where the economics work out. And I do think that I forget if, band camp raised or how much they did, but still relatively lean compared to the amount of money that many of the other consumer music, tech companies have raised, [00:47:15] Tati Cirisano: For sure. And another point on the business models, because I remember earlier you were mentioning one of the issues is there's like competing incentives, right? Between streaming platforms and labels and artists. Not everyone wants the same thing, but with Bandcamp's business model, since they're taking, since it's pretty simple, they're taking a cut of your sales. They only make money when the artist makes money. So there's this very clear, if you win, we win situation going on. And I think not every company can make it, you know, be that simple. But I think that's maybe a learning to keep in mind is that. The artists, the artist's goals should align with the business's goals. [00:47:55] Dan Runcie: Right? Agreed agreed and hopefully align with the target artists that is trying to serve and not necessarily. The uber duper 1% that happened to be generating the most money for them, which can often happen with these things. before we close things out, though. Let's fast forward to 20 years from now, and I say 20 years from now, because I think it's clear 20 years ago, a lot of people felt like it was a better time for the middle class musician. Let me actually say 25 years ago, just because he get pre Napster and say, 25 years ago, a lot of people feel like it was a better time then than it is now. Now I alter that. It's different. It probably takes a lot more work and more tentacles involved with everything, but it's still possible. But 20 years from now, do you think it's any easier for the middle class musician? [00:48:43] Tati Cirisano: I love it. When you, end on one of these crazy think 20 years in the future questions, is it any easier? I think it's, I mean, I know this is an annoying answer, but I think it's easier in some ways and harder and others. Like I think that for the same, all these reasons that we've talked about, I think, things are only going to get more and more fragmented. And I think in the 20 years from now, it won't be that there's, you know, this 1% of superstars and then everyone else, it'll increasingly be that there's many, many of these like middle tier or even what we think was smaller tier artists. And in that way, creating this core fan base is going to be even more important, but building it is going to be even harder. So I think, I don't know. I remember, I did an interview a couple months ago where we talked about a lot of similar things about, you know, streaming economics and how hard it is today and all these things. And at the end, they asked me, well, all of this considered, would you rather be an artist today or an artist then? And if I think about that same, like, if I kind of take that lens to your question, think about it now, or even in 20 years, I still think I'd rather be an artist now. Because I think there are many more ways to get in. There's many more, you know, options available to you. And I think before the door was closed to so many, just so many people, and now at least the door is open, like the door is open and you enter an insanely crowded room where, you know, there's obstacles flying at you left and right, but at least the door is open. So yeah, complicated question, complicated answer. What do you think Dan? [00:50:20] Dan Runcie: I think net harder, I would say if I had to pick net harder, like just more difficult in general, but I do agree with you that in general. It's easier to get started and have a chance of having a breakthrough today that it is. Yes, that it was yesterday because of the gatekeepers and things like that. But once you do break through, it's harder to get noticed today than it was yesterday. So I think those dynamics increase further 20, 25 years out, even 5 years out, I would say, and that does make it harder for someone in this 50 to 150 K range to meet their people. It requires even more intentionality of trying to make sure you're talking to the right base that you're truly trying to, let's say, you're taking advantage of the long tail. You're trying to find your pocket and focus on the niche. You're going to take a much more thorough and deep business plan to do everything you want to do, even if you're only bringing in a few percent. 70, 000 from all of the various things you're doing, but you're doing it. And I think that would only get harder. And I think that probably speaks to more broad trends just with the state of the middle class and other areas outside of music. But that's how I see things. [00:51:45] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. No, I think that makes sense like if I really boil it down, I don't think it's going to get easier. So it's either going to get harder or it's going to be about the same. Yeah, because these, you know, positives and negatives will sort of cancel each other out. [00:52:00] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Well, we'll continue to monitor this continue to keep track of the companies that are aiming to solve this. I know it's a problem. That's easier said than done. I think there's plenty of ways that it can work. It can't work. And I think for a lot of the companies that are raising big amounts of money to solve this problem, it could be worth a look to see what that path looks like and other companies that have tried to do this as well and where their shortcomings were but rooting for the middle class musicians, an important group, and hopefully the more and more platforms we have that just increases the likelihood that someone can find the right service that can help them get to where they want to be. [00:52:39] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. And I mean, like I said, we're having these conversations more now there's more, creative thinking about what the future looks like and, what innovation looks like in this area. So I think we're having the conversations and that's a positive thing. [00:52:53] Dan Runcie: Indeed. All right, Tati, before we let you go, anything else coming up from media or from you that we should keep an eye out on? [00:53:01] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, I would say, like I was, mentioning before we have this great new report on live music audiences that is already out on our website. And I will also have a report coming out in early August on the state of fandom, the state of music fandom. So I'm very excited about that one, as you probably guess, one of my favorite things to talk about. So, yeah, look out for that. I'm excited. [00:53:23] Dan Runcie: Will do, awesome. Thanks again. This was fun. Thanks for coming on. [00:53:27] Tati Cirisano: Thanks, Dan. [00:53:28] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast. Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 28 Jul 2023 09:00:00 -0000 The State of the Middle-Class Artist full Dan Runcie Episode title: The State of the Middle-Class Artist The “middle class musician” is a popular talking point in the industry. Several platforms have been built to serve this group.  But what exactly is a middle-class musician? How can they get ahead when the major companies are incentivized to support the superstars? How does the 1000 True Fans theory apple here? And which companies do a great job of serving them today?  I talked to Tati Cirisano of MIDiA Research to break it all down. Here’s everything we covered this episode: 0:44 How much money does a middle-class musician take home? 9:05 How the 1,000 True Fans theory works in the steaming era  16:06 Why platforms struggling to serve middle class  18:33 What fans actually want from artist-specific subscriptions  21:23 How touring is for the middle class artists 23:21 Artists catalogs generating $20k+ from Spotify  26:25 Good data vs bad data 28:49 MIDiA’s Bandsintown return to live study 34:39 Why Pandora struggled to serve the middle class  36:18 Is serving middle-class musicians a viable business model?  48:13 Will middle-class musicians have it easier in 20 years? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Tati Cirisano, @tatianacirisano This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Tati Cirisano: If an artist is trying to sell them something for 300 just so that they make 50 or whatever it is that translates to the fan as them having to spend so much money just to prove that they're a fan of the artist. So we don't want to. harvest people's fandom, we want to cultivate it. And the current industry makes it hard to fulfill that promise. [00:00:17] Dan Runcie Audio Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:44] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is about the state of the middle class artists. It's a very different world than it was 20, 25 years ago. If you talk to artists back then, who are now frustrated with the current model, they'll tell you that the nineties and the eighties were a great time for middle class artists. You could sell a few tens of thousands of CDs per year. You could still bring home enough for you and your band and others to earn a living off of that. But those economics get a lot harder in the streaming era where you need millions of streams, if not more. Just to make that same revenue that you did 25 years ago. But because of the streaming era that we're in now, it's also opened up many more opportunities for different revenue streams, both in real life and through digital communities and online marketplaces and things like that. So with all of that change, all that dynamic. Where does that leave us? So for today's episode, I'm joined by Tati Sirisano. She's dug into this topic specifically with some of her work at Media Research and a lot of the analysis she's done on fandom. So where are we with middle class musicians? What does it mean to be a middle class musicians? And for all of the platforms out there that are aiming to serve middle class musicians, who's actually doing it well? Let's dive in. [00:02:00] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is all about the middle class musician. This is a group of artists that is often talked about in the industry from all of the companies, all of the services that are trying to help artists, but how many of them are actually serving artists and doing it in a meaningful way? And I'm here to talk about it with someone who's talked about and read about this topic herself, Tati Cirisano, welcome back to the pod. [00:02:26] Tati Cirisano: Thanks, Dan. I'm excited. I love a thorny topic and there are many thorns to this one. A lot of contradictions, a lot of really, I don't know, interesting viewpoints. So I'm excited to get into it. [00:02:39] Dan Runcie: So first let's define middle class musician. When you hear the term, when you use the term yourself. What are you referring to? How do you define that group? [00:02:49] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. Well, it's, funny because if you think about a middle class musician as someone who's earning a sustainable living wage from their music, there's very few artists as we know, that actually do that. Like some of the successful, you know, relatively well-known artists that we listen to might not even fit into that description. so I think it is, you know, a pretty small group. but that's what I would define it as, I guess if we're being technical about it, is it's someone who is able to actually, earn a full-time living from their music career. And, when we look at, you know, at media, we do a lot of creator surveys. and when we look at, you know, how many creators fit into that. when we did our last creator survey in the UK and the US, we got, about 19% of everyone who filled out. Our survey was actually doing it full time. That doesn't necessarily mean they're making a living wage, but that means that this is, you know, what they're doing for, you know, their main career and the average income was about $46, 000. So that's kind of what I see when I think of the term, I guess. [00:03:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think the sweet spot. I've thought about that as the floor to 50, 000 that you are earning from your music related activities. And I say that specifically because I think this is where some of the difference of the term and its interpretation is for years, people used to look at that number specifically think about it in terms of what is derived specifically from your music revenue. You being able to sell CDs, sell physical albums. How much of it comes from there today? Obviously, the economics are flipped and it is. Quite challenging for artists, especially if you don't own the rights to your music to be able to earn that level of money stand alone from CD sales, unless you're complimenting it with another revenue source. So that's a bit that's why I mentioned music related things, because artists, at least now do make more from touring and we'll get into that a bit more. They also have merch and other things that they still did have in. The nineties and other eras before, but some of these things have expanded and there's now all of these digital, so you have the IRL experiences, the IRL experiences too, and if that can combine and you're making, let's say at least $50,000 in profit, I would say so take home expenses of, or take home revenue of what you actually have versus up to let's say $150,000. That's how I've defined middle class musician. If you're earning more than that, then you're definitely at that closer to that tip of the spear. I don't know if the numbers would exactly put you in, let's say the 1%. I think there might be even a little bit of gap below that, but that's how I've roughly looked at it. So even though I know that. Every year, Spotify has its breakdown on how many artists catalogs generate this certain amount. And the math there is roughly been okay. You can multiply that number by 4 and that can give you an idea of what the total recorded music revenue is. That's still only 1 source that doesn't include all the other sources that are there. So there's a bunch of ways. And I think a lot of people out there do feel like you should be able to be a middle class musician. If you're earning solely from the music recording itself, but I do like to think of it a bit more broadly and that's how I've defined it [00:06:19] Tati Cirisano: No, definitely. I realized that I answered that question thinking about it that way without even realizing it because it's so common now that I mean, I think earning a full time living from your music alone and not these other things, all these other things around it is nearly impossible for a lot of today's artists. And when we look at, you know, in the research. Most of these artists are learning from a really fragmented mix of income streams, right? There isn't just like one thing that is their main source of income. They tend to have a hand in all these different places from, education to sync to performing, producing for other artists and things like that. So we hear a lot. There's this need to kind of have all the wheels spinning all the time. And usually the sources of income that, are maybe more important are the ones that actually are not about your music itself. So that's a really good, that's a really important distinction to make for sure. [00:07:14] Dan Runcie: Because I think what you're calling out and it's true is that what people enjoyed about the CD era was that there was 1 item that you could purchase in that 10 to 20 dollar range and that benefited. Those artists who could then get at least, let's say, 4 to 5 for every 20 CD that's sold. They then keep that and then that you just do the math on that even if you're splitting that up amongst 4 band members, there's still a lot there and technology has this pattern of making it more advantageous for the people who are already on top, not necessarily the people that are trying to get there. And I think this is some of the challenges that certain startups in the space have had, because several of them have tried to serve this middle class audience with the belief that technology does connect us and technology does do all those things, but we've seen it more likely or not just the way that things have been set up so far and streaming, but also in other aspects of the creator economy and people making a living off of the internet, one way or another, it does tend to benefit those that do happen to be the most successful, so that's why I think you calling out the way things are, whether it's people selling merch or people selling vinyl or people selling unique items, or even back in the NFT phase where people were selling more of those is unique items or concert tickets more broadly that gets you back to the opportunity to compensate the quote unquote, middle class artists more because it's a fan having that 1 to 1 relationship where they're spending the high and they're spending their money on the high end product to get whatever it is in a way. That's very different from getting some pro rata distribution of their 1099 monthly subscription to 1 of the streaming services. [00:09:05] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, and I think in music, especially we've really seen this, like the thousand true fans theory, kind of gained popularity over the past year or two years and really have to run up against streaming economics where scale is the only thing that matters. So I think, you know, if you were selling CDs in the nineties and you had a really small, but dedicated fan base, you could earn money off of that. you could make a decent living off of that. but now there aren't that many ways to actually, monetize a core fan base around the music itself. I mean, you're not doing that on streaming. so I think, you know, streaming definitely delivered on the promise of. allowing more artists to be heard, but it the income side of that didn't really catch up by opening the door to everyone. It just gave way to so much oversaturation and so much fragmentation that, it kind of breaks the pro rata streaming model. [00:09:57] Dan Runcie: And I think that most people listening to this probably do generally understand why it's hard to do that with streaming. You literally need millions of streams per month in order to be able to reach those thresholds. And that's just very hard to do. However, if we also look at the platforms that are intended to be more creator friendly or more independent. Artist friendly or more middle class musician friendly, even those still struggle to hit those numbers. One of the highly publicized numbers from Patreon, of course, this is now looking at all creators, not necessarily musicians, but only 2% of the creators that use Patreon are earning more than 50, 000 annually from their Patreon. So again, just to make sure that we're covering all the bases, not all of the money that a middle class musician needs to make needs to come from Patreon in order to be a middle class musician. But it's another highlight where even though now we're taking away the streaming dynamic, you now have this product where most of the people are selling something on Patreon for one, five, 10 per month. It still doesn't quite. Offer that opportunity. So what do you think the disconnect is there? Because I know patrons 1 example, but there's other similar platforms that offer those types of things, but haven't quite been able to get [00:11:23] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. I mean, I think that it all kind of goes back to with all of these platforms that so long as streaming economics are only benefiting superstars. We can't really serve the middle class musician because even if those artists are earning a decent amount of money by, you know, making cameo videos for their fans or having some subscribers on Patreon, they're still forced to monetize everything around the music rather than the music itself. They still aren't really able to fully capitalize on monetizing core fandom. Even as it's been interesting, like even as the industry, I think, has really started to galvanize around this idea of monetizing fandom and how important it is, especially in how fragmented listenership is today to not just focus on building these mass passive audiences, but focus on a core fan base. but again, that's running up directly against streaming economics, which is part of the reason why there's now finally a call, I think, from all sides of the industry to change things. But I think that I really feel like the more I think about it, I just come back to that as long as the ways the solutions that we're giving to these so called middle class musicians are about monetizing things around their music, we're still never really realizing the full potential of what they could do by monetizing their fan base around the music. Maybe that's like a simplistic answer, but I just, I just keep coming back to that. [00:12:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think 1 of the challenges with tools like Patreon and others is that. They're still similar to the streaming services selling a monthly subscription product and it's quite incentivized to be able to do that because they are SAS companies. They're trying to sell subscriptions companies that have strong MRR do get better valuations. And these are companies that are ultimately trying to exit. And we saw a company like Patreon, I believe the valuation hit 4 billion in the peak of the pandemic, just when everyone was going wild about the creator economy. And we've since seen that and many others come back down to earth. But the thing is a lot of those platforms it's based on that take rate and the take rate, even though I think the take rate for a platform like a Patreon may have been relatively low. It still incentivizes the power law to take over where those platforms are going to succeed based on having a few of those power users in that 2% that make up over 60, 70% of the revenue, if not more. And then you run into the same dynamic that you have on Spotify, where you see a similar dynamic there in terms of it's that small 1% of the people on top that make up everything. And whenever you have that type of dynamic, it's hard to shake that. And I think, especially given when you add on to it, any of these new platforms that do end up taking venture capital, there are incentives to have certain types of business models and certain types of approaches. So, I do think that that's an aspect. And then also just the fact that it is limiting itself to that 1 type of subscription that 1 time you're paying that artist or person on a regular basis and it's hard to do that compared to, let's say, the way it was when you're buying CDs, when you could go to Sam Gooding, you could buy 10 CDs if you want, you could buy one CD if you want, and I think that's where merch and vinyl and even platforms like Bandcamp and others get a bit more to that thing, where you're not limited on the quantity of how much you can buy from the thing, and it does allow a bit more of that individual transaction, which is what I think that Middle class musicians, artists really need in order to succeed. How can you make it infinite that someone can buy more of your stuff? [00:15:15] Tati Cirisano: Right, right. And I think in addition to all of this, there's just these like underlying dynamics of how fragmented the market is, how competitive, the entertainment landscape is, how, you know, streaming has sort of inadvertently encouraged listeners to be a bit more passive, I think, over the past 10 years. So we're now in this situation where even if you decide as an artist to, you know, build this core fan base and you have all the right tools to monetize it, it's still just really, really hard to break through and, gather, you know, enough people around your music and sustain their attention and get them to be active fans. Like I think, the competitiveness and the fragmented nature of the market is just underlying all of this. [00:16:05] Dan Runcie: So let's actually dig into that with the, Kevin Kelly's a thousand true fans theory that you mentioned. What do you think is the thing that's making that difficult? I know you mentioned the competitive piece, so maybe let's get into some of the specifics because in theory. If you were using a service like a Patreon or whatever, if you combine all of these things, can you have a thousand people paying you eight, nine dollars a month? And then that equals your a hundred thousand dollars like what is making that difficult? Like how big of an artist do you need to be for that to actually be a reality? [00:16:39] Tati Cirisano: Well, right. That's the thing is that there's just so much music out there and people are spreading their listening across more artists, more songs than ever. I think it's really hard to actually get a meaningful number of subscribers for something like that. And also people that are going to stick around. I think another thing with the subscription, like the artists for artists, specific subscriptions, the monthly cycle doesn't really align with the pace of consumption and fandom where, people are. I think it's natural that you're fandom of an artist rises and falls over time as you know, a new artist captures your attention or something else is happening in your life or whatever, but I think that pace is accelerating and it might happen in two weeks. Whereas it used to happen in two months or six months. So I just think it's, really hard to actually galvanize people around a monthly subscription, but something else that's interesting that actually comes from our recent research and we have a report coming out on this. soon. Is that when we ask people what they actually want from artist specific subscriptions, the things that come out on top are not what you expect and aren't what most artists are going for. So I think most artists have been doing, you know, behind the scenes content or I'll hop on and do a Q&A with you or you get access to a community of other fans and those things actually come out towards the bottom. What comes out on top is just exclusive access to music, being able to hear music that nobody else can hear or being able to hear it early and same thing for merchandise and same thing for tickets. So fans already have too much content out there that they have access to. They don't necessarily want to pay for more. And so instead, what they really want is just to get what they're already enjoying faster or before everyone else, or in a way that is exclusive to them. So yeah, I have a lot of thoughts as you can see on like subscriptions specifically.  But I think that, you know. It's ironic because the thousand true fans theory model is what a lot of artists need these days because it is in some ways a way to cut through the fragmentation is building a core fan base, making really deep, long lasting connections. But it's also really just really hard to do that in today's landscape. [00:18:57] Dan Runcie: Why do you think there's a disconnect there? I mean, based on the insights that you're sharing, why couldn't an artist be like, okay, well, if that's what the fans want, then why not give them the exclusive access? Why are artists leading towards behind the scenes. [00:19:11] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. I mean, I think that I don't blame them because I think social media has kind of taught artists to just give more content all the time. And there's probably this assumption that that's what you need to capture attention. I think there's also a long history of streaming services and labels being uncomfortable with like exclusive content. I mean, I think that's why we're at a point these days where all streaming services have the same catalogs. So I think in the past, maybe it's been hard to justify that type of like, like windowing like remember when windowing kind of had a moment and then it went away. So I don't know, maybe it's time to reconsider that. And maybe the market would be a bit more open to that idea now. So artists, if you're listening to this try it out. [00:20:00] Dan Runcie: Right? Because you would like to think in theory that if an artist is independent, it's their choice on what they want to do independently versus not. But we also know it's very tough for an independent artist to even reach these levels to be able to get there, right? And I think this gives this is a good segue into another piece of the discussion, which is a lot of the music distribution services that have popped up and got in a lot more funding recently are specifically trying to be a alternative to the financing that record labels offer, whether you look at a company like a beet bread or into fire stem or United masters, these companies are offering advances in exchange for this. And sometimes the advances can start quite small, but still, at least on most of them, I think there's some minimum threshold you need on, let's say, a Spotify to have 10, 000 monthly listeners on the service, and even that, while it may not seem like a lot compared to the 1% of superstar artists, it still could be a lot, especially if you look at that compared to a lot of the artists that are these quote unquote, middle class artists that we're talking about. There's just such a divide where, because there's so much noise out there, you can feel like there is, it can be quite difficult to even take full advantage of those services because of the levels you need to be in order to get there. And I feel with that, it's probably a good chance for us to talk about touring because I think that's the other piece. We know that for a lot of artists now, let's say, whether it's, you know, depending on the artists, it could be, you know, as low as 30, but as high as 70% or even more of their revenue that comes directly from touring and especially since the economics of the current cycle that we're in have flipped where artists no longer, like, not everything is no longer the loss of leader in order to sell more CDs streaming. And other things are the thing that's done to sell more tour tickets. And that's essentially what we're getting back to you, right? How do you get fans to buy that 1 thing? But we're seeing that touring as well just like streaming, just like Patreon, just like any of these other things, even though they have a slightly different business model, it all becomes subject to the power law and how demand looks at it. Because you look at the superstars at the top level, we're talking about how Taylor Swift and maybe Beyonce are going to have the first billion dollar tours ever. And meanwhile, the artists that are in this quote, unquote, middle class artists bucket, many of them are struggling to sell out shows. Even the artists who are stars, but not quite superstars are canceling tours left and right. It's very tough to be able to do that. And that's another piece there because I feel like for years, that was always the retort you would hear. Well, they could make money on tour. Well, they could do this. Well, that's becoming a tougher thing for artists that aren't performing in front of thousands, several thousands of people on a regular basis. [00:22:56] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. I mean, they're struggling to sell out tours and they're also struggling to finance them to begin with. I mean, there've been so many artists that canceled before their tours even really got started selling tickets because they said, I crunched the numbers and I just can't afford this. So even if you are an artist that has demand for your shows, it can be really hard to, actually make touring sustainable for yourself. [00:23:21] Dan Runcie: Agreed, and maybe just to look at some rough numbers here, because I think it would be helpful. I pulled up, Spotify's loud and clear that they have their breakdown on the number of artists that are earning certain things and if we do some ballpark math here, so they said in 2022, there were 91, 000 artists that had catalogs that were generating at least 5, 000 dollars a year. And if you multiply that by 4, accounting for other streaming services, accounting for other recorded revenue streams, that then brings you to 20, 000 dollars. A few things to keep in mind, though, this doesn't include publishing. This doesn't include other things as well. That could also increase the revenue for artists, but it also is just about the artist catalog generated. So it doesn't Account for record label deals and things like that. So if we were to even take a number like this, and let's roughly call it 50%, even at that point, you combine that with the, let's say, they're making the equivalent on the live side, but on live. The percentage that the promoters and others that you're partnered with isn't nearly as high as it is on the recorded revenue side. So just to add some context for this. I mean, we're talking about less than 100, 000 people worldwide. And that number may even be generous there because there's this doesn't account like record label splits and all those things and so it's a tough world out there. [00:24:52] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. Wait. And can you back that up for so it's a 90, 000 are earning what? [00:24:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, so according to Spotify's loud and clear report, 91, 200 artists, those are the number of recording artists whose catalogs generated recording and publishing royalties over 5, 000 alone on Spotify. Yeah, and then Spotify's ballpark is that if you multiply that number by 4, that gives you all of the revenue streams overall. So you could use that to say 20, 000. [00:25:25] Tati Cirisano: Right. Right. Yeah. No, and as we know, that does, like you said, it does gloss over a lot of nuances. So it's probably a little bit different and very different, in practice. But I think the other thing talking about touring. and the struggle of a lot of these, you know, middle class artists to sell shows is another unintended consequence of streaming is how song focused the music landscape we live in is now where a lot of artists will have a viral song or they'll have, you know, a popular song, but not that many people will actually discover the artists beyond that, or become a fan of their wider catalog to the point where they want to buy a ticket. And I think that that's what's driving a lot of these sort of awkward tour cancellations that we've seen where an artist may think, or their team may think, based on the success of a couple of songs, they have a big enough fan base to sell tour tickets, and they might not. So I think the metrics for touring are getting a lot murkier. [00:26:25] Dan Runcie: This is why what's happening right now with as it relates to socials, streaming and touring data, the more data has actually made people worse at the jobs, I think, to some extent. And I mean, I can't say that factually, I would need to look at some data to truly be able to prove that. But I do question whether or not it is helped in a lot of ways, Because of everyone is programmed to algorithms in the 3rd way. You could think that you're seeing someone everywhere. So let's just use I spice as an example. If you feel like, okay, in the circles of every time you open your phone, you see, I spice this, you see, I spice that you think that I spice could probably sell Madison square garden based on just what you may perceive to be people that are really in the industry. Probably know that that isn't the case. But even for those people in the industry that are making decisions, there could still be that disconnect to your point. And I think just going back again to the point you made earlier about the whole thousand true fans thing. That's what I think makes that tough because you brought up the point earlier about why, yeah, it's hard to have a recurring purchase with anything, especially when it's hard for anyone to capture the attention. I think recurring purchases can make sense for products like Netflix or Spotify, when they are the interface between all of these other products that we see on a regular basis, at least from a mass consumer perspective. And I know that in investing and finance and other circles, or even in music, there definitely trade publications out there that could justify it because it is offering education related information. But I think that again, how can you get back to that a 100 dollars from 1000 people looking more like. An actual 1 time purchase thing, or 1 time purchase things that you're purchasing. But again, even if you're trying to get someone to purchase 1 t shirt, 1 concert ticket, 2 albums, this, that, and all of those things net your earnings become, a hundred dollars per fan, that's still a lot. Like, how can you do all that and capture the attention you have because you could be asking someone to spend $300 just so that nets out to you, to the artist as $100 and at least the last I see, you know, it's even tailoring Beyonce may not, aren't netting that on the average ticket sale for their concerts because of the resellers and because of, you know, various fees and just all the other people involved. It's very tough to get there. [00:28:49] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. No. And the other thing that we don't want to do is just, you know, squeeze every dollar that we can out of the fans. Like when you use that example of the fan doesn't realize like what, you know, how the money trickles or doesn't trickle back down to the artist. If an artist is trying to sell them something for 300 just so that they make 50 or whatever it is that translates to the fan as them having to spend so much money just to prove that they're a fan of the artist. So I think that's the other side to this is we don't want to. harvest people's fandom. we want to cultivate it. And yeah, the current industry makes it hard hard to fulfill that promise. But the other thing I wanted to bring up before we get deeper into that, another interesting data point, that's sort of a counterpoint to some of this, which is, so at media, we just released a report in partnership with bands in town where we surveyed their users about their experiences with live music. It's a great report, I think it's like one of the, most comprehensive of like post pandemic live audiences that we've seen. So just a quick plug, but the data in it, we were interested in understanding, if superstar tours are becoming so expensive, does that mean that audiences are splurging their entire budget for the year for tickets on that, you know, Taylor Swift tour? And then they don't have anything left to go to the smaller shows that they would normally go to. And our hypothesis was that would be the case, but we actually didn't see that in the data. We saw two things, one is that the audiences who are going to smaller shows tend to be different from the ones that are like going to these, you know, arena and, stadium tours anyway. So they're actually less likely to be bothered by things like rising prices and added fees, because the shows that they're going to aren't as impacted by those issues anyway. And then the other, really interesting question we asked was if we gave you a 300 budget for concert tickets for the year, What would you spend it on? And we gave them four options and nearly half said that they would buy tickets of a few tickets for mid tier artist shows and about a quarter said they'd buy many tickets for many smaller shows. So that's already 75% of the audience. And then the rest were split up between splurging on like a Taylor Swift ticket or putting the money towards a festival. So when push comes to shove and people are forced to decide where to spend their limited tickets budget, they actually weren't, the most likely to go for, you know, the superstar shows, which was not what I expected. And I don't know if that has to do. Yeah, I don't know if that has to do partly with the fragmentation that I'm always talking about. And where I was talking about that, you know, people are actually starting to listen more to these sort of cult stars and not just a handful of big names that people are kind of spreading their listening and these mid tier artists are getting larger fan bases. That could be a part of it. it could just be people being a bit more, you know, pragmatic when they are forced to answer this question in this way. But yeah, I thought that was really interesting. [00:31:43] Dan Runcie: That makes me think of two things. Let's go back to the first board, just in terms of the slightly different audience profile of the big splurger versus the several shows. This is anecdotal, but most of the people I know that are frequent concert goers of smaller mid tier, maybe middle class musician artists, or maybe even slightly higher than that. They're not necessarily posting the shows on Instagram. They're not necessarily discussing it. It's almost like part of their regular day or week like, oh, what do you do? Oh yeah. We went to a show on, Thursday at the independent of San Francisco was cool or something like that. Versus if someone's going to a Taylor Swift or Beyonce show, and I'd even put Coachella and some of these other experiences in there. You hear about it. It's as much the experience, the brand of the thing and why taking an international trip to go watch Beyonce's renaissance tour in Paris or in Amsterdam or doing something similar for a Taylor Swift tickets, or even getting all your friends together to go, you know, have the outfits ready for Coachella. I feel like there's that is almost a very different group. So that felt like at least some anecdotal inferences that feel like they line up with what you're saying. And I think that's right. They are 2 very different types of people. The 2nd point, though, I do have to say, I am, I'm a bit surprised by that, because part of me wondered, okay, is there a little bit of potential bias of what someone is projecting of what they want to be versus what they may actually be right? And then just a natural distribution of, you know, how many people in each of those groups from that 1st point, you mentioned. Were the survey group for the 2nd point, but, yeah, it's 1 of those things where, like, you know, I think, let's say a movie example for me. One of the only times I'd went to the movies this past year so far, and I'm someone that normally goes off on one of the only times I went this past year was to, you know, see Barbie and Oppenheimer, you know, like together and stuff. And if you would have asked me in the beginning of the year, oh, how often do I plan to go to the movies this year? I probably wouldn't be. Oh, I'm only going to go for the biggest weekend of the year. But like, that's what I ended up again. I'm just 1 person with an example, but like, that's what that made think of. [00:33:54] Tati Cirisano: You're absolutely right. Every time we ask a question that is like hypothetical like that, we have to remember that, people will always answer with like their most aspirational self. And maybe people see that and say, Oh, I like to think of myself as, you know, a true artist fan. And I would like to go to more smaller shows or I'm not splurging on the superstar of the festival.  So I think it does have to be taken with a grain of salt. I think the sample size is big enough. This was like nearly 3000 people and the numbers are pretty. like stark enough that I think it still gives us a sense that the majority of these live music audiences are wanting to go to the, or would prioritize those smaller shows, but you're absolutely right that every time we ask a question like this, we have to take it with a grain of salt. [00:34:39] Dan Runcie: Indeed. And 1 thing I do want to tap into as well. You mentioned this back when we were texting back and forth leading up to this. It's about Pandora. You mentioned how the founder there had built a service, ideally intending to serve the middle class. And I went back and found 1 of the quotes. I'll read it here. He said, this is 10 Western trend. He said, when I found Pandora, the purpose of it was to build a discovery engine for lesser known musicians. I wouldn't say we lost our way, but we got sucked into the music industrial complex vortex, which is quite the quote, but I feel like that music industrial complex vortex is probably a few things. One, I think their rights holders discussions and negotiations back and forth with the record labels were quite public in a way that more recent ones haven't been. So that's 1 thing. But 2, I think a lot of it stems back to. This whole power law dynamic that we've been talking about. So you take the two of those together, you're partnering with companies that want their 1% of music to rise above the ranks. And it's in your platform's best interest from a financial perspective to monetize that piece too, which just adds another layer to it. [00:35:56] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, I think that. All of this is the, you know, second order impacts of streaming that all of the platforms are dealing with Westergen was just the first person to admit it. I don't think that, you know, most streaming platforms are not going out there and talking about this in such, honest terms. So I think, you know, that quote just the first one to really say it publicly. [00:36:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. And I think with this too, the question I keep coming back to is the sad question that I do ask and wonder is. This a viable business model for a company? There are several companies that have raised money in recent years, on this goal of serving the artist middle class, and I think it is something that often sounds great and compelling as a calling card. You're able to show it and share it and pitch decks about how it is this underserved audience, especially if you talk about where most of the revenue is accrued, and you can talk about the long tail, but do you think that this is a viable business model? Or have we seen examples where this has worked in practice where? Yes, a company and to be clear, not even that a company has to do it solely like they can't serve anyone that is more successful than a middle class musician, but have they done so. [00:37:15] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, it's a really good question. So yeah, I was thinking about that too when we were, texting about this over. Does it actually even make sense to focus on this goal of, like, enabling a class of middle class musicians? Because I think sometimes, the very important conversations about making the music business more fair to creators, what gets lost in that is that the goal is not for everyone to be successful because that's just not the way that any industry works, that anything works, there's still always going to be a bit of a hierarchy. But we just want to make sure that the odds are not so stacked against creators, that things aren't so unfair and that it's not impossible, you know, to make, a living off this. but I think that for it to work, ideally there needs to be a way or probably monetize music fandom rather than just large audiences. And I think that's something that. The music industry as a whole is starting to understand. And I think that we might start to see, I mean, we're already having a lot of conversations about like what the next, streaming business model could look like, like user centric has been tossed out for that. and this idea of maybe active listenership, if you can determine whether someone is an active fan that, you know, listening might get more royalties than the passive fan. We're having these conversations. And I think, to your point earlier. Streaming put a cap on what you can spend as a fan. There isn't any extra thing that you can buy. If you're a super fan, everyone is paying 9.99. And there are examples of streaming services that have monetized fandom like if you look at Tencent and NetEase in China, like they earn more of their annual revenue from a small segment of super fans paying extra for features than they do from a way larger base of subscribers. And that's a whole other, you know, rabbit hole to go down because I don't know how that money is actually shaking out in terms of whether it's still mostly going to the biggest artists or, you know, how much is actually going down to the creators, but I think that, it's possible to build a streaming model that monetizes not just scale, but also fandom and that could be a really big game changer, for this middle class of artists. I also think that to do that, we need to recultivate fandom in the first place, because again, we've spent the past decade teaching people to listen passively. So we can't just, you know, like with user centric. You can't just slap that model on a Spotify because so many of their listeners are passive. It's not a place that breeds fandom or encourages people or gives them ways to be more active fans. So there's a lot of work to do, but I think that these conversations are happening in a way that they haven't, at least in, you know, so long as I've been studying this. So I think that's at least a good thing that we're confronting all of these issues. [00:40:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think a number of those things and it's likely 1 of those things where the individual thing itself may not make the huge bump itself, but the collection or the collective of them do help raise the gap, right? So 10 cent for years, tipping and things like that have worked well. And we've seen the success there. 1 of the pushbacks you've often heard is that, oh, well, western culture isn't as, you know, into that or into this or into that. And I'm like, well, I mean, do we really know that's true until you try it? I feel like the past year, all I've seen is more and more places where physical locations. I've never tipped anyone before turning that square or toast thing over to my direction. And then now they want me to go. Give a 20, 25, 30% tip. And I'm like, excuse me. So granted, I know this is a whole debate now that people have very strong opinions on, but if anything, that shows me that whether or not people may like it or not, there is some aspect of that. So whatever thing like that can be created for artists that taps into that guilt or that shame that gets people to also go along with the tipping, even if they may not want to, I mean, I hate wording it like that because that's probably just my opinion about how I feel about some of the merchant style tipping that has been introduced recently. But I say that to say that shows that there's examples of this that have been introduced. So I think about that on that side and then I think 2 on the, whether it's user centric streaming and things like that. I do think that whether it's sound cloud or title, or some of these other companies have shown some of the results. I think we'll see a few more soon as well. That do show the impact there. And I know that that's been another contentious thing with the record labels and others, but I do think that in the end, there's other things that, you know, can still level the playing field for everyone. The thing that I think a lot about is what the physical purchases look like. And we all know that vinyl and other physical formats have continued to increase, but I also feel like that's a bit subject to the superstar game as well. I don't know the answer to this question I'm about to ask, but if I was a middle class artist right now, I'm about to release my album and I wanted to have. A bunch of vinyl that was made for my fan base. Could I have that ready? The first week that my album comes out, could I have that out there knowing all of the supply chain and logistical issues that may still exist with vinyl? Because last time I checked the record labels and others were getting. Priority and they were more likely to give that priority to the Harry Styles and the Taylor Swift's and others that did have huge first week sales numbers, largely due to the vinyl that they were able to sell. So, is a middle class musician able to participate in that same way, at least upon the initial onset of their album release? I'm not sure, but things like that just make it easier for them to be able to monetize and capture that moment. [00:43:09] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. No, I'm, glad that you brought that up. And that reminds me of another thing, because I think you would also ask, like, as any company doing this or has any company done this? Well, and I feel like band camp is worth mentioning here, you know, I think a lot of artists see that as I've seen bandcamp as sort of a lifeline throughout a lot of these struggles and something else that's interesting about it, speaking of the whole tipping thing is. I think most albums or most, if you're going to band camp and you're buying a digital version of an album, there's nothing more of an expression of fandom because what are most of those people are going to do with that? They're really just doing it to support the artists because they probably already have a streaming subscription. They can listen to the album somewhere else, they don't need band camp for it. And I think a lot of artists as well. Put up their music or whatever. Yeah, yeah, when they put up their music on band camp, it's oftentimes pay what you want. And I remember, back when I was at Billboard, I did a big feature on Bandcamp, and I remember them telling me at the time that, the majority of fans pay more than asking. I don't know if that's still true, but that's a crazy stat! That the majority of fans are willing to pay more than asking when this is a pay what you want to purchase. So, you know, I think that's an example of this working. and people wanting to support their favorite artists purely to support them and maybe not even really getting, a vinyl album in return cause a lot of times it's just a digital download, but yeah, I think bandcamp deserves shouting out here. [00:44:33] Dan Runcie: They're a good 1 dimension to, because they stand a bit different in this dynamic of companies that have been raised or that have been started. They didn't necessarily start. I think that a lot of people have thought of band camp is almost this. Almost a bit of like a public utility or public good for the industry. I don't know if that's always the most fair definition, but I think people say that because it gets into this viability of business model and how long it can scale and things you can do. And I know they've since, I believe it was acquired by Epic games at least a couple years ago that that had happened. But I remember leading up to that people had wondered the same thing about band camp and it's just like you're saying a company, a platform that offer this opportunity, you want to buy the 1 thing. Great. You want to buy it as many times you want to pay even more for it, they make it easy on the website. They have band camp Fridays where they don't take the fee for things like there were things in place to make it happen, but it's 1 of those things where at the end of the day, I feel like the economics of convenience took over in a lot of ways for where the majority of people sat, but could you still do enough on the platform? And there definitely were success stories, which were cool to see, but it definitely wasn't necessarily the norm for all artists. So, when I think about it, collectively, I do think that it's viable to have a platform and have a business that does serve the middle class musician, and I think that it's probably more likely to be a platform that either relied on minimal outside funding or didn't, or was it invested by some of the biggest venture capital firms? And I say that not in any way against venture capital, but more so that the nature of those investments, they're trying to get 10 billion dollar exits from people, or they're trying to get 10Billion dollar exits from the companies they invest in, and they're not going to get that level of exit unless this is a consumer product. We'll talk about a consumer product. This is a consumer product that reaches everyone and can maximize that nth degree, which then makes it subject to the whole power law dynamic that we're then talking about. So I do think it can work for it. Like I said, whether it's bootstrapper and minimal funding company, where the economics work out. And I do think that I forget if, band camp raised or how much they did, but still relatively lean compared to the amount of money that many of the other consumer music, tech companies have raised, [00:47:15] Tati Cirisano: For sure. And another point on the business models, because I remember earlier you were mentioning one of the issues is there's like competing incentives, right? Between streaming platforms and labels and artists. Not everyone wants the same thing, but with Bandcamp's business model, since they're taking, since it's pretty simple, they're taking a cut of your sales. They only make money when the artist makes money. So there's this very clear, if you win, we win situation going on. And I think not every company can make it, you know, be that simple. But I think that's maybe a learning to keep in mind is that. The artists, the artist's goals should align with the business's goals. [00:47:55] Dan Runcie: Right? Agreed agreed and hopefully align with the target artists that is trying to serve and not necessarily. The uber duper 1% that happened to be generating the most money for them, which can often happen with these things. before we close things out, though. Let's fast forward to 20 years from now, and I say 20 years from now, because I think it's clear 20 years ago, a lot of people felt like it was a better time for the middle class musician. Let me actually say 25 years ago, just because he get pre Napster and say, 25 years ago, a lot of people feel like it was a better time then than it is now. Now I alter that. It's different. It probably takes a lot more work and more tentacles involved with everything, but it's still possible. But 20 years from now, do you think it's any easier for the middle class musician? [00:48:43] Tati Cirisano: I love it. When you, end on one of these crazy think 20 years in the future questions, is it any easier? I think it's, I mean, I know this is an annoying answer, but I think it's easier in some ways and harder and others. Like I think that for the same, all these reasons that we've talked about, I think, things are only going to get more and more fragmented. And I think in the 20 years from now, it won't be that there's, you know, this 1% of superstars and then everyone else, it'll increasingly be that there's many, many of these like middle tier or even what we think was smaller tier artists. And in that way, creating this core fan base is going to be even more important, but building it is going to be even harder. So I think, I don't know. I remember, I did an interview a couple months ago where we talked about a lot of similar things about, you know, streaming economics and how hard it is today and all these things. And at the end, they asked me, well, all of this considered, would you rather be an artist today or an artist then? And if I think about that same, like, if I kind of take that lens to your question, think about it now, or even in 20 years, I still think I'd rather be an artist now. Because I think there are many more ways to get in. There's many more, you know, options available to you. And I think before the door was closed to so many, just so many people, and now at least the door is open, like the door is open and you enter an insanely crowded room where, you know, there's obstacles flying at you left and right, but at least the door is open. So yeah, complicated question, complicated answer. What do you think Dan? [00:50:20] Dan Runcie: I think net harder, I would say if I had to pick net harder, like just more difficult in general, but I do agree with you that in general. It's easier to get started and have a chance of having a breakthrough today that it is. Yes, that it was yesterday because of the gatekeepers and things like that. But once you do break through, it's harder to get noticed today than it was yesterday. So I think those dynamics increase further 20, 25 years out, even 5 years out, I would say, and that does make it harder for someone in this 50 to 150 K range to meet their people. It requires even more intentionality of trying to make sure you're talking to the right base that you're truly trying to, let's say, you're taking advantage of the long tail. You're trying to find your pocket and focus on the niche. You're going to take a much more thorough and deep business plan to do everything you want to do, even if you're only bringing in a few percent. 70, 000 from all of the various things you're doing, but you're doing it. And I think that would only get harder. And I think that probably speaks to more broad trends just with the state of the middle class and other areas outside of music. But that's how I see things. [00:51:45] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. No, I think that makes sense like if I really boil it down, I don't think it's going to get easier. So it's either going to get harder or it's going to be about the same. Yeah, because these, you know, positives and negatives will sort of cancel each other out. [00:52:00] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Well, we'll continue to monitor this continue to keep track of the companies that are aiming to solve this. I know it's a problem. That's easier said than done. I think there's plenty of ways that it can work. It can't work. And I think for a lot of the companies that are raising big amounts of money to solve this problem, it could be worth a look to see what that path looks like and other companies that have tried to do this as well and where their shortcomings were but rooting for the middle class musicians, an important group, and hopefully the more and more platforms we have that just increases the likelihood that someone can find the right service that can help them get to where they want to be. [00:52:39] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. And I mean, like I said, we're having these conversations more now there's more, creative thinking about what the future looks like and, what innovation looks like in this area. So I think we're having the conversations and that's a positive thing. [00:52:53] Dan Runcie: Indeed. All right, Tati, before we let you go, anything else coming up from media or from you that we should keep an eye out on? [00:53:01] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, I would say, like I was, mentioning before we have this great new report on live music audiences that is already out on our website. And I will also have a report coming out in early August on the state of fandom, the state of music fandom. So I'm very excited about that one, as you probably guess, one of my favorite things to talk about. So, yeah, look out for that. I'm excited. [00:53:23] Dan Runcie: Will do, awesome. Thanks again. This was fun. Thanks for coming on. [00:53:27] Tati Cirisano: Thanks, Dan. [00:53:28] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast. Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Episode title: The State of the Middle-Class Artist


The “middle class musician” is a popular talking point in the industry. Several platforms have been built to serve this group. 


But what exactly is a middle-class musician? How can they get ahead when the major companies are incentivized to support the superstars? How does the 1000 True Fans theory apple here? And which companies do a great job of serving them today? 


I talked to Tati Cirisano of MIDiA Research to break it all down. Here’s everything we covered this episode:


0:44 How much money does a middle-class musician take home?

9:05 How the 1,000 True Fans theory works in the steaming era 

16:06 Why platforms struggling to serve middle class 

18:33 What fans actually want from artist-specific subscriptions 

21:23 How touring is for the middle class artists

23:21 Artists catalogs generating $20k+ from Spotify 

26:25 Good data vs bad data

28:49 MIDiA’s Bandsintown return to live study

34:39 Why Pandora struggled to serve the middle class 

36:18 Is serving middle-class musicians a viable business model? 

48:13 Will middle-class musicians have it easier in 20 years?



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Tati Cirisano, @tatianacirisano


This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm

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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Tati Cirisano: If an artist is trying to sell them something for 300 just so that they make 50 or whatever it is that translates to the fan as them having to spend so much money just to prove that they're a fan of the artist.

So we don't want to. harvest people's fandom, we want to cultivate it. And the current industry makes it hard to fulfill that promise.

[00:00:17] Dan Runcie Audio Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:44] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is about the state of the middle class artists. It's a very different world than it was 20, 25 years ago. If you talk to artists back then, who are now frustrated with the current model, they'll tell you that the nineties and the eighties were a great time for middle class artists. You could sell a few tens of thousands of CDs per year.

You could still bring home enough for you and your band and others to earn a living off of that. But those economics get a lot harder in the streaming era where you need millions of streams, if not more. Just to make that same revenue that you did 25 years ago. But because of the streaming era that we're in now, it's also opened up many more opportunities for different revenue streams, both in real life and through digital communities and online marketplaces and things like that.

So with all of that change, all that dynamic. Where does that leave us? So for today's episode, I'm joined by Tati Sirisano. She's dug into this topic specifically with some of her work at Media Research and a lot of the analysis she's done on fandom. So where are we with middle class musicians? What does it mean to be a middle class musicians?

And for all of the platforms out there that are aiming to serve middle class musicians, who's actually doing it well? Let's dive in.

[00:02:00] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is all about the middle class musician. This is a group of artists that is often talked about in the industry from all of the companies, all of the services that are trying to help artists, but how many of them are actually serving artists and doing it in a meaningful way? And I'm here to talk about it with someone who's talked about and read about this topic herself, Tati Cirisano, welcome back to the pod.

[00:02:26] Tati Cirisano: Thanks, Dan. I'm excited. I love a thorny topic and there are many thorns to this one. A lot of contradictions, a lot of really, I don't know, interesting viewpoints. So I'm excited to get into it.

[00:02:39] Dan Runcie: So first let's define middle class musician. When you hear the term, when you use the term yourself. What are you referring to? How do you define that group?

[00:02:49] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. Well, it's, funny because if you think about a middle class musician as someone who's earning a sustainable living wage from their music, there's very few artists as we know, that actually do that. Like some of the successful, you know, relatively well-known artists that we listen to might not even fit into that description.

so I think it is, you know, a pretty small group. but that's what I would define it as, I guess if we're being technical about it, is it's someone who is able to actually, earn a full-time living from their music career. And, when we look at, you know, at media, we do a lot of creator surveys. and when we look at, you know, how many creators fit into that.

when we did our last creator survey in the UK and the US, we got, about 19% of everyone who filled out. Our survey was actually doing it full time. That doesn't necessarily mean they're making a living wage, but that means that this is, you know, what they're doing for, you know, their main career and the average income was about $46, 000. So that's kind of what I see when I think of the term, I guess.

[00:03:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think the sweet spot. I've thought about that as the floor to 50, 000 that you are earning from your music related activities. And I say that specifically because I think this is where some of the difference of the term and its interpretation is for years, people used to look at that number specifically think about it in terms of what is derived specifically from your music revenue.

You being able to sell CDs, sell physical albums. How much of it comes from there today? Obviously, the economics are flipped and it is. Quite challenging for artists, especially if you don't own the rights to your music to be able to earn that level of money stand alone from CD sales, unless you're complimenting it with another revenue source.

So that's a bit that's why I mentioned music related things, because artists, at least now do make more from touring and we'll get into that a bit more. They also have merch and other things that they still did have in. The nineties and other eras before, but some of these things have expanded and there's now all of these digital, so you have the IRL experiences, the IRL experiences too, and if that can combine and you're making, let's say at least $50,000 in profit, I would say so take home expenses of, or take home revenue of what you actually have versus up to let's say $150,000.

That's how I've defined middle class musician. If you're earning more than that, then you're definitely at that closer to that tip of the spear. I don't know if the numbers would exactly put you in, let's say the 1%. I think there might be even a little bit of gap below that, but that's how I've roughly looked at it.

So even though I know that. Every year, Spotify has its breakdown on how many artists catalogs generate this certain amount. And the math there is roughly been okay. You can multiply that number by 4 and that can give you an idea of what the total recorded music revenue is. That's still only 1 source that doesn't include all the other sources that are there.

So there's a bunch of ways. And I think a lot of people out there do feel like you should be able to be a middle class musician. If you're earning solely from the music recording itself, but I do like to think of it a bit more broadly and that's how I've defined it

[00:06:19] Tati Cirisano: No, definitely. I realized that I answered that question thinking about it that way without even realizing it because it's so common now that I mean, I think earning a full time living from your music alone and not these other things, all these other things around it is nearly impossible for a lot of today's artists. And when we look at, you know, in the research. Most of these artists are learning from a really fragmented mix of income streams, right? There isn't just like one thing that is their main source of income. They tend to have a hand in all these different places from, education to sync to performing, producing for other artists and things like that.

So we hear a lot. There's this need to kind of have all the wheels spinning all the time. And usually the sources of income that, are maybe more important are the ones that actually are not about your music itself. So that's a really good, that's a really important distinction to make for sure.

[00:07:14] Dan Runcie: Because I think what you're calling out and it's true is that what people enjoyed about the CD era was that there was 1 item that you could purchase in that 10 to 20 dollar range and that benefited. Those artists who could then get at least, let's say, 4 to 5 for every 20 CD that's sold. They then keep that and then that you just do the math on that even if you're splitting that up amongst 4 band members, there's still a lot there and technology has this pattern of making it more advantageous for the people who are already on top, not necessarily the people that are trying to get there. And I think this is some of the challenges that certain startups in the space have had, because several of them have tried to serve this middle class audience with the belief that technology does connect us and technology does do all those things, but we've seen it more likely or not just the way that things have been set up so far and streaming, but also in other aspects of the creator economy and people making a living off of the internet, one way or another, it does tend to benefit those that do happen to be the most successful, so that's why I think you calling out the way things are, whether it's people selling merch or people selling vinyl or people selling unique items, or even back in the NFT phase where people were selling more of those is unique items or concert tickets more broadly that gets you back to the opportunity to compensate the quote unquote, middle class artists more because it's a fan having that 1 to 1 relationship where they're spending the high and they're spending their money on the high end product to get whatever it is in a way.

That's very different from getting some pro rata distribution of their 1099 monthly subscription to 1 of the streaming services.

[00:09:05] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, and I think in music, especially we've really seen this, like the thousand true fans theory, kind of gained popularity over the past year or two years and really have to run up against streaming economics where scale is the only thing that matters. So I think, you know, if you were selling CDs in the nineties and you had a really small, but dedicated fan base, you could earn money off of that.

you could make a decent living off of that. but now there aren't that many ways to actually, monetize a core fan base around the music itself. I mean, you're not doing that on streaming. so I think, you know, streaming definitely delivered on the promise of. allowing more artists to be heard, but it the income side of that didn't really catch up by opening the door to everyone. It just gave way to so much oversaturation and so much fragmentation that, it kind of breaks the pro rata streaming model.

[00:09:57] Dan Runcie: And I think that most people listening to this probably do generally understand why it's hard to do that with streaming. You literally need millions of streams per month in order to be able to reach those thresholds. And that's just very hard to do. However, if we also look at the platforms that are intended to be more creator friendly or more independent. Artist friendly or more middle class musician friendly, even those still struggle to hit those numbers. One of the highly publicized numbers from Patreon, of course, this is now looking at all creators, not necessarily musicians, but only 2% of the creators that use Patreon are earning more than 50, 000 annually from their Patreon. So again, just to make sure that we're covering all the bases, not all of the money that a middle class musician needs to make needs to come from Patreon in order to be a middle class musician. But it's another highlight where even though now we're taking away the streaming dynamic, you now have this product where most of the people are selling something on Patreon for one, five, 10 per month. It still doesn't quite. Offer that opportunity. So what do you think the disconnect is there? Because I know patrons 1 example, but there's other similar platforms that offer those types of things, but haven't quite been able to get

[00:11:23] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. I mean, I think that it all kind of goes back to with all of these platforms that so long as streaming economics are only benefiting superstars. We can't really serve the middle class musician because even if those artists are earning a decent amount of money by, you know, making cameo videos for their fans or having some subscribers on Patreon, they're still forced to monetize everything around the music rather than the music itself.

They still aren't really able to fully capitalize on monetizing core fandom. Even as it's been interesting, like even as the industry, I think, has really started to galvanize around this idea of monetizing fandom and how important it is, especially in how fragmented listenership is today to not just focus on building these mass passive audiences, but focus on a core fan base.

but again, that's running up directly against streaming economics, which is part of the reason why there's now finally a call, I think, from all sides of the industry to change things. But I think that I really feel like the more I think about it, I just come back to that as long as the ways the solutions that we're giving to these so called middle class musicians are about monetizing things around their music, we're still never really realizing the full potential of what they could do by monetizing their fan base around the music.

Maybe that's like a simplistic answer, but I just, I just keep

coming back to that.

[00:12:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think 1 of the challenges with tools like Patreon and others is that. They're still similar to the streaming services selling a monthly subscription product and it's quite incentivized to be able to do that because they are SAS companies. They're trying to sell subscriptions companies that have strong MRR do get better valuations. And these are companies that are ultimately trying to exit. And we saw a company like Patreon, I believe the valuation hit 4 billion in the peak of the pandemic, just when everyone was going wild about the creator economy. And we've since seen that and many others come back down to earth.

But the thing is a lot of those platforms it's based on that take rate and the take rate, even though I think the take rate for a platform like a Patreon may have been relatively low. It still incentivizes the power law to take over where those platforms are going to succeed based on having a few of those power users in that 2% that make up over 60, 70% of the revenue, if not more.

And then you run into the same dynamic that you have on Spotify, where you see a similar dynamic there in terms of it's that small 1% of the people on top that make up everything. And whenever you have that type of dynamic, it's hard to shake that. And I think, especially given when you add on to it, any of these new platforms that do end up taking venture capital, there are incentives to have certain types of business models and certain types of approaches. So, I do think that that's an aspect. And then also just the fact that it is limiting itself to that 1 type of subscription that 1 time you're paying that artist or person on a regular basis and it's hard to do that compared to, let's say, the way it was when you're buying CDs, when you could go to Sam Gooding, you could buy 10 CDs if you want, you could buy one CD if you want, and I think that's where merch and vinyl and even platforms like Bandcamp and others get a bit more to that thing, where you're not limited on the quantity of how much you can buy from the thing, and it does allow a bit more of that individual transaction, which is what I think that Middle class musicians, artists really need in order to succeed. How can you make it infinite that someone can buy more of your stuff?

[00:15:15] Tati Cirisano: Right, right. And I think in addition to all of this, there's just these like underlying dynamics of how fragmented the market is, how competitive, the entertainment landscape is, how, you know, streaming has sort of inadvertently encouraged listeners to be a bit more passive, I think, over the past 10 years.

So we're now in this situation where even if you decide as an artist to, you know, build this core fan base and you have all the right tools to monetize it, it's still just really, really hard to break through and, gather, you know, enough people around your music and sustain their attention and get them to be active fans. Like I think, the competitiveness and the fragmented nature of the market is just underlying all of this.

[00:16:05] Dan Runcie: So let's actually dig into that with the, Kevin Kelly's a thousand true fans theory that you mentioned. What do you think is the thing that's making that difficult? I know you mentioned the competitive piece, so maybe let's get into some of the specifics because in theory. If you were using a service like a Patreon or whatever, if you combine all of these things, can you have a thousand people paying you eight, nine dollars a month? And then that equals your a hundred thousand dollars like what is making that difficult? Like how big of an artist do you need to be for that to actually be a reality?

[00:16:39] Tati Cirisano: Well, right. That's the thing is that there's just so much music out there and people are spreading their listening across more artists, more songs than ever. I think it's really hard to actually get a meaningful number of subscribers for something like that. And also people that are going to stick around. I think another thing with the subscription, like the artists for artists, specific subscriptions, the monthly cycle doesn't really align with the pace of consumption and fandom where, people are. I think it's natural that you're fandom of an artist rises and falls over time as you know, a new artist captures your attention or something else is happening in your life or whatever, but I think that pace is accelerating and it might happen in two weeks.

Whereas it used to happen in two months or six months. So I just think it's, really hard to actually galvanize people around a monthly subscription, but something else that's interesting that actually comes from our recent research and we have a report coming out on this. soon. Is that when we ask people what they actually want from artist specific subscriptions, the things that come out on top are not what you expect and aren't what most artists are going for.

So I think most artists have been doing, you know, behind the scenes content or I'll hop on and do a Q&A with you or you get access to a community of other fans and those things actually come out towards the bottom. What comes out on top is just exclusive access to music, being able to hear music that nobody else can hear or being able to hear it early and same thing for merchandise and same thing for tickets.

So fans already have too much content out there that they have access to. They don't necessarily want to pay for more. And so instead, what they really want is just to get what they're already enjoying faster or before everyone else, or in a way that is exclusive to them. So yeah, I have a lot of thoughts as you can see on like subscriptions specifically.

 But I think that, you know. It's ironic because the thousand true fans theory model is what a lot of artists need these days because it is in some ways a way to cut through the fragmentation is building a core fan base, making really deep, long lasting connections. But it's also really just really hard to do that in today's landscape.

[00:18:57] Dan Runcie: Why do you think there's a disconnect there? I mean, based on the insights that you're sharing, why couldn't an artist be like, okay, well, if that's what the fans want, then why not give them the exclusive access? Why are artists leading towards behind the scenes.

[00:19:11] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. I mean, I think that I don't blame them because I think social media has kind of taught artists to just give more content all the time. And there's probably this assumption that that's what you need to capture attention. I think there's also a long history of streaming services and labels being uncomfortable with like exclusive content.

I mean, I think that's why we're at a point these days where all streaming services have the same catalogs. So I think in the past, maybe it's been hard to justify that type of like, like windowing like remember when windowing kind of had a moment and then it went away. So I don't know, maybe it's time to reconsider that. And maybe the market would be a bit more open to that idea now. So artists, if you're listening to this try it out.

[00:20:00] Dan Runcie: Right? Because you would like to think in theory that if an artist is independent, it's their choice on what they want to do independently versus not. But we also know it's very tough for an independent artist to even reach these levels to be able to get there, right? And I think this gives this is a good segue into another piece of the discussion, which is a lot of the music distribution services that have popped up and got in a lot more funding recently are specifically trying to be a alternative to the financing that record labels offer, whether you look at a company like a beet bread or into fire stem or United masters, these companies are offering advances in exchange for this. And sometimes the advances can start quite small, but still, at least on most of them, I think there's some minimum threshold you need on, let's say, a Spotify to have 10, 000 monthly listeners on the service, and even that, while it may not seem like a lot compared to the 1% of superstar artists, it still could be a lot, especially if you look at that compared to a lot of the artists that are these quote unquote, middle class artists that we're talking about. There's just such a divide where, because there's so much noise out there, you can feel like there is, it can be quite difficult to even take full advantage of those services because of the levels you need to be in order to get there.

And I feel with that, it's probably a good chance for us to talk about touring because I think that's the other piece. We know that for a lot of artists now, let's say, whether it's, you know, depending on the artists, it could be, you know, as low as 30, but as high as 70% or even more of their revenue that comes directly from touring and especially since the economics of the current cycle that we're in have flipped where artists no longer, like, not everything is no longer the loss of leader in order to sell more CDs streaming. And other things are the thing that's done to sell more tour tickets. And that's essentially what we're getting back to you, right? How do you get fans to buy that 1 thing? But we're seeing that touring as well just like streaming, just like Patreon, just like any of these other things, even though they have a slightly different business model, it all becomes subject to the power law and how demand looks at it. Because you look at the superstars at the top level, we're talking about how Taylor Swift and maybe Beyonce are going to have the first billion dollar tours ever.

And meanwhile, the artists that are in this quote, unquote, middle class artists bucket, many of them are struggling to sell out shows. Even the artists who are stars, but not quite superstars are canceling tours left and right. It's very tough to be able to do that. And that's another piece there because I feel like for years, that was always the retort you would hear. Well, they could make money on tour. Well, they could do this. Well, that's becoming a tougher thing for artists that aren't performing in front of thousands, several thousands of people on a regular basis.

[00:22:56] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. I mean, they're struggling to sell out tours and they're also struggling to finance them to begin with. I mean, there've been so many artists that canceled before their tours even really got started selling tickets because they said, I crunched the numbers and I just can't afford this. So even if you are an artist that has demand for your shows, it can be really hard to, actually make touring sustainable for yourself.

[00:23:21] Dan Runcie: Agreed, and maybe just to look at some rough numbers here, because I think it would be helpful. I pulled up, Spotify's loud and clear that they have their breakdown on the number of artists that are earning certain things and if we do some ballpark math here, so they said in 2022, there were 91, 000 artists that had catalogs that were generating at least 5, 000 dollars a year. And if you multiply that by 4, accounting for other streaming services, accounting for other recorded revenue streams, that then brings you to 20, 000 dollars. A few things to keep in mind, though, this doesn't include publishing. This doesn't include other things as well. That could also increase the revenue for artists, but it also is just about the artist catalog generated.

So it doesn't Account for record label deals and things like that. So if we were to even take a number like this, and let's roughly call it 50%, even at that point, you combine that with the, let's say, they're making the equivalent on the live side, but on live. The percentage that the promoters and others that you're partnered with isn't nearly as high as it is on the recorded revenue side.

So just to add some context for this. I mean, we're talking about less than 100, 000 people worldwide. And that number may even be generous there because there's this doesn't account like record label splits and all those things and so it's a tough world out there.

[00:24:52] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. Wait. And can you back that up for so it's a 90, 000 are earning what?

[00:24:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, so according to Spotify's loud and clear report, 91, 200 artists, those are the number of recording artists whose catalogs generated recording and publishing royalties over 5, 000 alone on Spotify. Yeah, and then Spotify's ballpark is that if you multiply that number by 4, that gives you all of the revenue streams overall. So you could use that to say 20, 000.

[00:25:25] Tati Cirisano: Right. Right. Yeah. No, and as we know, that does, like you said, it does gloss over a lot of nuances. So it's probably a little bit different and very different, in practice. But I think the other thing talking about touring. and the struggle of a lot of these, you know, middle class artists to sell shows is another unintended consequence of streaming is how song focused the music landscape we live in is now where a lot of artists will have a viral song or they'll have, you know, a popular song, but not that many people will actually discover the artists beyond that, or become a fan of their wider catalog to the point where they want to buy a ticket.

And I think that that's what's driving a lot of these sort of awkward tour cancellations that we've seen where an artist may think, or their team may think, based on the success of a couple of songs, they have a big enough fan base to sell tour tickets, and they might not. So I think the metrics for touring are getting a lot murkier.

[00:26:25] Dan Runcie: This is why what's happening right now with as it relates to socials, streaming and touring data, the more data has actually made people worse at the jobs, I think, to some extent. And I mean, I can't say that factually, I would need to look at some data to truly be able to prove that. But I do question whether or not it is helped in a lot of ways, Because of everyone is programmed to algorithms in the 3rd way.

You could think that you're seeing someone everywhere. So let's just use I spice as an example. If you feel like, okay, in the circles of every time you open your phone, you see, I spice this, you see, I spice that you think that I spice could probably sell Madison square garden based on just what you may perceive to be people that are really in the industry.

Probably know that that isn't the case. But even for those people in the industry that are making decisions, there could still be that disconnect to your point. And I think just going back again to the point you made earlier about the whole thousand true fans thing. That's what I think makes that tough because you brought up the point earlier about why, yeah, it's hard to have a recurring purchase with anything, especially when it's hard for anyone to capture the attention.

I think recurring purchases can make sense for products like Netflix or Spotify, when they are the interface between all of these other products that we see on a regular basis, at least from a mass consumer perspective. And I know that in investing and finance and other circles, or even in music, there definitely trade publications out there that could justify it because it is offering education related information.

But I think that again, how can you get back to that a 100 dollars from 1000 people looking more like. An actual 1 time purchase thing, or 1 time purchase things that you're purchasing. But again, even if you're trying to get someone to purchase 1 t shirt, 1 concert ticket, 2 albums, this, that, and all of those things net your earnings become, a hundred dollars per fan, that's still a lot. Like, how can you do all that and capture the attention you have because you could be asking someone to spend $300 just so that nets out to you, to the artist as $100 and at least the last I see, you know, it's even tailoring Beyonce may not, aren't netting that on the average ticket sale for their concerts because of the resellers and because of, you know, various fees and just all the other people involved. It's very tough to get there.

[00:28:49] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. No. And the other thing that we don't want to do is just, you know, squeeze every dollar that we can out of the fans. Like when you use that example of the fan doesn't realize like what, you know, how the money trickles or doesn't trickle back down to the artist. If an artist is trying to sell them something for 300 just so that they make 50 or whatever it is that translates to the fan as them having to spend so much money just to prove that they're a fan of the artist.

So I think that's the other side to this is we don't want to. harvest people's fandom. we want to cultivate it. And yeah, the current industry makes it hard hard to fulfill that promise. But the other thing I wanted to bring up before we get deeper into that, another interesting data point, that's sort of a counterpoint to some of this, which is, so at media, we just released a report in partnership with bands in town where we surveyed their users about their experiences with live music. It's a great report, I think it's like one of the, most comprehensive of like post pandemic live audiences that we've seen. So just a quick plug, but the data in it, we were interested in understanding, if superstar tours are becoming so expensive, does that mean that audiences are splurging their entire budget for the year for tickets on that, you know, Taylor Swift tour? And then they don't have anything left to go to the smaller shows that they would normally go to. And our hypothesis was that would be the case, but we actually didn't see that in the data. We saw two things, one is that the audiences who are going to smaller shows tend to be different from the ones that are like going to these, you know, arena and, stadium tours anyway.

So they're actually less likely to be bothered by things like rising prices and added fees, because the shows that they're going to aren't as impacted by those issues anyway. And then the other, really interesting question we asked was if we gave you a 300 budget for concert tickets for the year, What would you spend it on?

And we gave them four options and nearly half said that they would buy tickets of a few tickets for mid tier artist shows and about a quarter said they'd buy many tickets for many smaller shows. So that's already 75% of the audience. And then the rest were split up between splurging on like a Taylor Swift ticket or putting the money towards a festival. So when push comes to shove and people are forced to decide where to spend their limited tickets budget, they actually weren't, the most likely to go for, you know, the superstar shows, which was not what I expected.

And I don't know if that has to do. Yeah, I don't know if that has to do partly with the fragmentation that I'm always talking about. And where I was talking about that, you know, people are actually starting to listen more to these sort of cult stars and not just a handful of big names that people are kind of spreading their listening and these mid tier artists are getting larger fan bases. That could be a part of it. it could just be people being a bit more, you know, pragmatic when they are forced to answer this question in this way. But yeah, I thought that was really interesting.

[00:31:43] Dan Runcie: That makes me think of two things. Let's go back to the first board, just in terms of the slightly different audience profile of the big splurger versus the several shows. This is anecdotal, but most of the people I know that are frequent concert goers of smaller mid tier, maybe middle class musician artists, or maybe even slightly higher than that. They're not necessarily posting the shows on Instagram. They're not necessarily discussing it. It's almost like part of their regular day or week like, oh, what do you do? Oh yeah. We went to a show on, Thursday at the independent of San Francisco was cool or something like that. Versus if someone's going to a Taylor Swift or Beyonce show, and I'd even put Coachella and some of these other experiences in there.

You hear about it. It's as much the experience, the brand of the thing and why taking an international trip to go watch Beyonce's renaissance tour in Paris or in Amsterdam or doing something similar for a Taylor Swift tickets, or even getting all your friends together to go, you know, have the outfits ready for Coachella. I feel like there's that is almost a very different group. So that felt like at least some anecdotal inferences that feel like they line up with what you're saying. And I think that's right. They are 2 very different types of people. The 2nd point, though, I do have to say, I am, I'm a bit surprised by that, because part of me wondered, okay, is there a little bit of potential bias of what someone is projecting of what they want to be versus what they may actually be right? And then just a natural distribution of, you know, how many people in each of those groups from that 1st point, you mentioned. Were the survey group for the 2nd point, but, yeah, it's 1 of those things where, like, you know, I think, let's say a movie example for me.

One of the only times I'd went to the movies this past year so far, and I'm someone that normally goes off on one of the only times I went this past year was to, you know, see Barbie and Oppenheimer, you know, like together and stuff. And if you would have asked me in the beginning of the year, oh, how often do I plan to go to the movies this year?

I probably wouldn't be. Oh, I'm only going to go for the biggest weekend of the year. But like, that's what I ended up again. I'm just 1 person with an example, but like, that's what that made think of.

[00:33:54] Tati Cirisano: You're absolutely right. Every time we ask a question that is like hypothetical like that, we have to remember that, people will always answer with like their most aspirational self. And maybe people see that and say, Oh, I like to think of myself as, you know, a true artist fan. And I would like to go to more smaller shows or I'm not splurging on the superstar of the festival.

 So I think it does have to be taken with a grain of salt. I think the sample size is big enough. This was like nearly 3000 people and the numbers are pretty. like stark enough that I think it still gives us a sense that the majority of these live music audiences are wanting to go to the, or would prioritize those smaller shows, but you're absolutely right that every time we ask a question like this, we have to take it with a grain of salt.

[00:34:39] Dan Runcie: Indeed. And 1 thing I do want to tap into as well. You mentioned this back when we were texting back and forth leading up to this. It's about Pandora. You mentioned how the founder there had built a service, ideally intending to serve the middle class. And I went back and found 1 of the quotes. I'll read it here. He said, this is 10 Western trend. He said, when I found Pandora, the purpose of it was to build a discovery engine for lesser known musicians. I wouldn't say we lost our way, but we got sucked into the music industrial complex vortex, which is quite the quote, but I feel like that music industrial complex vortex is probably a few things. One, I think their rights holders discussions and negotiations back and forth with the record labels were quite public in a way that more recent ones haven't been. So that's 1 thing. But 2, I think a lot of it stems back to. This whole power law dynamic that we've been talking about. So you take the two of those together, you're partnering with companies that want their 1% of music to rise above the ranks. And it's in your platform's best interest from a financial perspective to monetize that piece too, which just adds another layer to it.

[00:35:56] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, I think that. All of this is the, you know, second order impacts of streaming that all of the platforms are dealing with Westergen was just the first person to admit it. I don't think that, you know, most streaming platforms are not going out there and talking about this in such, honest terms. So I think, you know, that quote just the first one to really say it publicly.

[00:36:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. And I think with this too, the question I keep coming back to is the sad question that I do ask and wonder is. This a viable business model for a company? There are several companies that have raised money in recent years, on this goal of serving the artist middle class, and I think it is something that often sounds great and compelling as a calling card.

You're able to show it and share it and pitch decks about how it is this underserved audience, especially if you talk about where most of the revenue is accrued, and you can talk about the long tail, but do you think that this is a viable business model? Or have we seen examples where this has worked in practice where? Yes, a company and to be clear, not even that a company has to do it solely like they can't serve anyone that is more successful than a middle class musician, but have they done so.

[00:37:15] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, it's a really good question. So yeah, I was thinking about that too when we were, texting about this over. Does it actually even make sense to focus on this goal of, like, enabling a class of middle class musicians? Because I think sometimes, the very important conversations about making the music business more fair to creators, what gets lost in that is that the goal is not for everyone to be successful because that's just not the way that any industry works, that anything works, there's still always going to be a bit of a hierarchy. But we just want to make sure that the odds are not so stacked against creators, that things aren't so unfair and that it's not impossible, you know, to make, a living off this.

but I think that for it to work, ideally there needs to be a way or probably monetize music fandom rather than just large audiences. And I think that's something that. The music industry as a whole is starting to understand. And I think that we might start to see, I mean, we're already having a lot of conversations about like what the next, streaming business model could look like, like user centric has been tossed out for that.

and this idea of maybe active listenership, if you can determine whether someone is an active fan that, you know, listening might get more royalties than the passive fan. We're having these conversations. And I think, to your point earlier. Streaming put a cap on what you can spend as a fan. There isn't any extra thing that you can buy.

If you're a super fan, everyone is paying 9.99. And there are examples of streaming services that have monetized fandom like if you look at Tencent and NetEase in China, like they earn more of their annual revenue from a small segment of super fans paying extra for features than they do from a way larger base of subscribers.

And that's a whole other, you know, rabbit hole to go down because I don't know how that money is actually shaking out in terms of whether it's still mostly going to the biggest artists or, you know, how much is actually going down to the creators, but I think that, it's possible to build a streaming model that monetizes not just scale, but also fandom and that could be a really big game changer, for this middle class of artists.

I also think that to do that, we need to recultivate fandom in the first place, because again, we've spent the past decade teaching people to listen passively. So we can't just, you know, like with user centric. You can't just slap that model on a Spotify because so many of their listeners are passive.

It's not a place that breeds fandom or encourages people or gives them ways to be more active fans. So there's a lot of work to do, but I think that these conversations are happening in a way that they haven't, at least in, you know, so long as I've been studying this. So I think that's at least a good thing that we're confronting all of these issues.

[00:40:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think a number of those things and it's likely 1 of those things where the individual thing itself may not make the huge bump itself, but the collection or the collective of them do help raise the gap, right? So 10 cent for years, tipping and things like that have worked well. And we've seen the success there. 1 of the pushbacks you've often heard is that, oh, well, western culture isn't as, you know, into that or into this or into that. And I'm like, well, I mean, do we really know that's true until you try it? I feel like the past year, all I've seen is more and more places where physical locations. I've never tipped anyone before turning that square or toast thing over to my direction. And then now they want me to go. Give a 20, 25, 30% tip. And I'm like, excuse me. So granted, I know this is a whole debate now that people have very strong opinions on, but if anything, that shows me that whether or not people may like it or not, there is some aspect of that. So whatever thing like that can be created for artists that taps into that guilt or that shame that gets people to also go along with the tipping, even if they may not want to, I mean, I hate wording it like that because that's probably just my opinion about how I feel about some of the merchant style tipping that has been introduced recently. But I say that to say that shows that there's examples of this that have been introduced.

So I think about that on that side and then I think 2 on the, whether it's user centric streaming and things like that. I do think that whether it's sound cloud or title, or some of these other companies have shown some of the results. I think we'll see a few more soon as well. That do show the impact there. And I know that that's been another contentious thing with the record labels and others, but I do think that in the end, there's other things that, you know, can still level the playing field for everyone. The thing that I think a lot about is what the physical purchases look like. And we all know that vinyl and other physical formats have continued to increase, but I also feel like that's a bit subject to the superstar game as well.

I don't know the answer to this question I'm about to ask, but if I was a middle class artist right now, I'm about to release my album and I wanted to have. A bunch of vinyl that was made for my fan base. Could I have that ready? The first week that my album comes out, could I have that out there knowing all of the supply chain and logistical issues that may still exist with vinyl?

Because last time I checked the record labels and others were getting. Priority and they were more likely to give that priority to the Harry Styles and the Taylor Swift's and others that did have huge first week sales numbers, largely due to the vinyl that they were able to sell. So, is a middle class musician able to participate in that same way, at least upon the initial onset of their album release? I'm not sure, but things like that just make it easier for them to be able to monetize and capture that moment.

[00:43:09] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. No, I'm, glad that you brought that up. And that reminds me of another thing, because I think you would also ask, like, as any company doing this or has any company done this? Well, and I feel like band camp is worth mentioning here, you know, I think a lot of artists see that as I've seen bandcamp as sort of a lifeline throughout a lot of these struggles and something else that's interesting about it, speaking of the whole tipping thing is. I think most albums or most, if you're going to band camp and you're buying a digital version of an album, there's nothing more of an expression of fandom because what are most of those people are going to do with that? They're really just doing it to support the artists because they probably already have a streaming subscription.

They can listen to the album somewhere else, they don't need band camp for it. And I think a lot of artists as well. Put up their music or whatever. Yeah, yeah, when they put up their music on band camp, it's oftentimes pay what you want. And I remember, back when I was at Billboard, I did a big feature on Bandcamp, and I remember them telling me at the time that, the majority of fans pay more than asking. I don't know if that's still true, but that's a crazy stat! That the majority of fans are willing to pay more than asking when this is a pay what you want to purchase. So, you know, I think that's an example of this working. and people wanting to support their favorite artists purely to support them and maybe not even really getting, a vinyl album in return cause a lot of times it's just a digital download, but yeah, I think bandcamp deserves shouting out here.

[00:44:33] Dan Runcie: They're a good 1 dimension to, because they stand a bit different in this dynamic of companies that have been raised or that have been started. They didn't necessarily start. I think that a lot of people have thought of band camp is almost this. Almost a bit of like a public utility or public good for the industry.

I don't know if that's always the most fair definition, but I think people say that because it gets into this viability of business model and how long it can scale and things you can do. And I know they've since, I believe it was acquired by Epic games at least a couple years ago that that had happened. But I remember leading up to that people had wondered the same thing about band camp and it's just like you're saying a company, a platform that offer this opportunity, you want to buy the 1 thing. Great. You want to buy it as many times you want to pay even more for it, they make it easy on the website.

They have band camp Fridays where they don't take the fee for things like there were things in place to make it happen, but it's 1 of those things where at the end of the day, I feel like the economics of convenience took over in a lot of ways for where the majority of people sat, but could you still do enough on the platform?

And there definitely were success stories, which were cool to see, but it definitely wasn't necessarily the norm for all artists. So, when I think about it, collectively, I do think that it's viable to have a platform and have a business that does serve the middle class musician, and I think that it's probably more likely to be a platform that either relied on minimal outside funding or didn't, or was it invested by some of the biggest venture capital firms?

And I say that not in any way against venture capital, but more so that the nature of those investments, they're trying to get 10 billion dollar exits from people, or they're trying to get 10Billion dollar exits from the companies they invest in, and they're not going to get that level of exit unless this is a consumer product.

We'll talk about a consumer product. This is a consumer product that reaches everyone and can maximize that nth degree, which then makes it subject to the whole power law dynamic that we're then talking about. So I do think it can work for it. Like I said, whether it's bootstrapper and minimal funding company, where the economics work out.

And I do think that I forget if, band camp raised or how much they did, but still relatively lean compared to the amount of money that many of the other consumer music, tech companies have raised,

[00:47:15] Tati Cirisano: For sure. And another point on the business models, because I remember earlier you were mentioning one of the issues is there's like competing incentives, right? Between streaming platforms and labels and artists. Not everyone wants the same thing, but with Bandcamp's business model, since they're taking, since it's pretty simple, they're taking a cut of your sales. They only make money when the artist makes money. So there's this very clear, if you win, we win situation going on. And I think not every company can make it, you know, be that simple. But I think that's maybe a learning to keep in mind is that. The artists, the artist's goals should align with the business's goals.

[00:47:55] Dan Runcie: Right? Agreed agreed and hopefully align with the target artists that is trying to serve and not necessarily. The uber duper 1% that happened to be generating the most money for them, which can often happen with these things. before we close things out, though. Let's fast forward to 20 years from now, and I say 20 years from now, because I think it's clear 20 years ago, a lot of people felt like it was a better time for the middle class musician.

Let me actually say 25 years ago, just because he get pre Napster and say, 25 years ago, a lot of people feel like it was a better time then than it is now. Now I alter that. It's different. It probably takes a lot more work and more tentacles involved with everything, but it's still possible. But 20 years from now, do you think it's any easier for the middle class musician?

[00:48:43] Tati Cirisano: I love it. When you, end on one of these crazy think 20 years in the future questions, is it any easier? I think it's, I mean, I know this is an annoying answer, but I think it's easier in some ways and harder and others. Like I think that for the same, all these reasons that we've talked about, I think, things are only going to get more and more fragmented. And I think in the 20 years from now, it won't be that there's, you know, this 1% of superstars and then everyone else, it'll increasingly be that there's many, many of these like middle tier or even what we think was smaller tier artists.

And in that way, creating this core fan base is going to be even more important, but building it is going to be even harder. So I think, I don't know. I remember, I did an interview a couple months ago where we talked about a lot of similar things about, you know, streaming economics and how hard it is today and all these things.

And at the end, they asked me, well, all of this considered, would you rather be an artist today or an artist then? And if I think about that same, like, if I kind of take that lens to your question, think about it now, or even in 20 years, I still think I'd rather be an artist now. Because I think there are many more ways to get in.

There's many more, you know, options available to you. And I think before the door was closed to so many, just so many people, and now at least the door is open, like the door is open and you enter an insanely crowded room where, you know, there's obstacles flying at you left and right, but at least the door is open. So yeah, complicated question, complicated answer. What do you think Dan?

[00:50:20] Dan Runcie: I think net harder, I would say if I had to pick net harder, like just more difficult in general, but I do agree with you that in general. It's easier to get started and have a chance of having a breakthrough today that it is. Yes, that it was yesterday because of the gatekeepers and things like that. But once you do break through, it's harder to get noticed today than it was yesterday. So I think those dynamics increase further 20, 25 years out, even 5 years out, I would say, and that does make it harder for someone in this 50 to 150 K range to meet their people. It requires even more intentionality of trying to make sure you're talking to the right base that you're truly trying to, let's say, you're taking advantage of the long tail.

You're trying to find your pocket and focus on the niche. You're going to take a much more thorough and deep business plan to do everything you want to do, even if you're only bringing in a few percent. 70, 000 from all of the various things you're doing, but you're doing it. And I think that would only get harder.

And I think that probably speaks to more broad trends just with the state of the middle class and other areas outside of music. But that's how I see things.

[00:51:45] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. No, I think that makes sense like if I really boil it down, I don't think it's going to get easier. So it's either going to get harder or it's going to be about the same. Yeah, because these, you know, positives and negatives will sort of cancel each other out.

[00:52:00] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Well, we'll continue to monitor this continue to keep track of the companies that are aiming to solve this. I know it's a problem. That's easier said than done. I think there's plenty of ways that it can work. It can't work. And I think for a lot of the companies that are raising big amounts of money to solve this problem, it could be worth a look to see what that path looks like and other companies that have tried to do this as well and where their shortcomings were but rooting for the middle class musicians, an important group, and hopefully the more and more platforms we have that just increases the likelihood that someone can find the right service that can help them get to where they want to be.

[00:52:39] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. And I mean, like I said, we're having these conversations more now there's more, creative thinking about what the future looks like and, what innovation looks like in this area. So I think we're having the conversations and that's a positive thing.

[00:52:53] Dan Runcie: Indeed. All right, Tati, before we let you go, anything else coming up from media or from you that we should keep an eye out on?

[00:53:01] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, I would say, like I was, mentioning before we have this great new report on live music audiences that is already out on our website. And I will also have a report coming out in early August on the state of fandom, the state of music fandom. So I'm very excited about that one, as you probably guess, one of my favorite things to talk about.

So, yeah, look out for that. I'm excited.

[00:53:23] Dan Runcie: Will do, awesome. Thanks again. This was fun. Thanks for coming on.

[00:53:27] Tati Cirisano: Thanks, Dan.

[00:53:28] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast. Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 3245 no What’s Next for Travis Scott? https://www.trapital.com/podcast Travis Scott is in album mode. Utopia will be his first album since 2018, but a lot has changed since then. The industry isn’t as hip-hop dominant, hypebeast culture has shifted, and Travis is still navigating things after the 2021 Astroworld Festival tragedy. How will all this influence Utopia? I broke it all down with friend of the pod, Denisha Kuhlor. Here’s what we covered: 0:43 How hip-hop has changed since Astroworld 8:23 Travis sold a lifestyle to success 9:29 Why Travis attracted category-leading brand sponsors 13:51 Lasting effect of Astroworld Festival tragedy  19:11 How will the “Ragers” respond to Utopia?  24:12 Over/under on Utopia’s first-week sales 30:01 Pyramid performance in Egypt 31:09 Did Travis miss out on building out a major independent brand? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: When we look at the caliber of the brands that he was able to pull, I think that was the difference between him being a 10 or 20 million a year artist that we were who we would be praising his work ethic versus this $100 million artist that were like, wow. [00:00:17] Dan Runcie Intro Audio: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:43] Dan Runcie: All right, we're going to get deep into the world of Utopia. Travis Scott is upon the release of his fourth album, and this one has been long anticipated for several years now. But a lot's changed since the last time that Travis Scott released his album, Astroworld, which came out summer 2018. But there's been two big things that have happened. One, the pandemic. And then two, the tragedy of the Astroworld concert, and we have seen the heights of Travis Scott in that era, thinking specifically about the Fornite series that he had, we've also seen the lows of it as well, especially given the aftermath of the people that died and all of the injuries and all of the broader conversations around concert safety. Travis Scott's role in this himself and other things too. And I want to talk about this with you. So we have Denisha Culloran, who's the founder of STAN. You work specifically in artist engagement and have written pieces on many of the superstars. Let's first start with where hip hop is because we're now in 2023, and I feel like we're in a very different spot than we were when Travis Scott released his last album, Astroworld. So what's changed for you? Where were we with hip hop then and music then? And where are we now? [00:01:59] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think that hip hop is, undergoing a new era, at least from a quantitative or commercial success standpoint, in the last few years and probably in some ways due to the pandemic, I feel like we've seen the emergence of what I like to think of as dance music. I mean, Beyonce released a dance album, Drake, one of the biggest hip hop stars himself released a dance album. Even when you look at the rise of music, non English music, right? Whether that's music coming out of Africa or, you know, what Bad Bunny has done as well. People are, gravitating to music that doesn't necessarily have to do with the lyrics in the way that rap shines. So I would say to sum it up that rap is having, a bit of a fall from dominance. [00:02:46] Dan Runcie: And it's interesting with Travis Scott too, because I feel like he benefited from this transition to an era where people aren't necessarily listening for. The lyrics, the people that love Travis Scott were so much more interested into the vibe, this rager mentality, and he was a hip hop rock star in terms of how he built himself. And I don't know if a song like highest in the room is necessarily 1 that you're trying to hear in a club, or you're trying to hear dancing, but and so do you think that this transition away from lyrics and more divides? Do you think this hurts someone like Travis or helps them? [00:03:22] Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I like that categorization, hip hop, rock star. I mean, if we were to look at the charts, the one person who has waved the flag for hip hop this year, truly from a commercial standpoint, is Lil Uzi Vert. And I would compare him or categorize him the same way. So when I think about, when I think about that, I say it helps him. [00:03:44] Dan Runcie: Lil Uzi Vert did sample System of a Down in his most recent album. And he definitely has a few songs that sound like that post grunge early 2000s types of artists like Switchfoot and stuff like that. So there's a bit of that mixed in there. Travis Scott has benefited from that too. He's also benefited from having songs where. You heard multiple sounds being merged into each other. I'm thinking, of course, like sicko mode where you can break the whole song. It sounds like three parts in one together. But again, that was 2018. We're in a very different time right now for hip hop and its releases. And I say that to say the success that Travis Scott had in 2018 to 2020, because I do feel like in a lot of ways, that was the commercial peak. Said as much about him as it did about the broader streaming era, as it did about where culture was. So 1st, he himself, he emerges on the scene. He speaks to this audience of hip hop fans that. Really didn't have someone that was reaching them specifically Travis Scott born in the early 90s. So he's still millennial, but he definitely reached more of that older Gen Z audience. And let's say someone like Drake or Kendrick or J Cole did and he related to that hype beast culture. He did it with how he dropped his music, how he thought about merch collaborations and any of the partnerships that he had. And we'll get into those in a minute, but that was the ethos of what he did. And especially at that time with the way that Billboard was counting album bundles that really worked to his advantage because he combined his hype beast and his ability to sell things and essentially be a walking Supreme style artists where when he drops Astroworld, he literally has this 24 hour merge operation that is dropping a new product every hour of this. And that's how that album is able to do nearly 50% of its first week. Sales coming from more coming from these albums that come through, or these album bundles that come through. He still did quite well in streaming, but the combination of those leads to him having, I believe it was 537, 000 units selling in his 1st week. And usually the people that project these things are usually pretty on course. And I remember the projections leading up to Astroworld, which like Utopia was also pretty hyped album, but people were expecting things may be in the mid to high 200, 000 range. And he more than doubles that. And you rarely see that much of an artist exceeding the expectations of that perspective. I think a lot of it has to do with people just not expecting him to have dominated things the way that they did. And even though it is 1 of these things where you have to, in some ways, read the fine print to see how those numbers came through. The average person just sees the top line number. No different than you may see. Oh, this movie grossed a hundred and fifty million dollars. You're not trying to read the fine line to say, okay, well, how many of those tickets were IMAX versus cheap movies where it costs less than ten dollars. So go see matinee, you just want to see what's that top line number and it worked really well to his advantage and because there was still model culture definitely wasn't around in 2018 in that way, but we've only become more fragmented since then. So there was still this opportunity, especially with the growth of streaming and these services to really elevate a star. And I think that worked to his advantage as well. So the timing and everything of that Astroworld release couldn't have worked better for him. [00:07:20] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I agree. I think he was really disciplined or it just came natural in terms of building a business that exuded a lifestyle. And it was around the time where having this, like, flywheel of products, benefited, of course, not only the product that he was selling or pushing, but also counted towards his streams.  And I think, you know, in the past, a lot of artists maybe didn't get to show their dominance in that way, and our catalog episode, we talked about Beyonce, and Beyonce's numbers and whether they met expectations or didn't meet expectations in terms of her streaming numbers, or in some ways, how she shows up on the charts. But when you see what that fandom looks like mobilized in the form of her live shows, one, you know, a few data points in aggregate, especially when it relates to, streaming or listening habits, clearly don't tell the full story about the fandom. and I think that's where Travis Scott was really able to at that time, show us the power of what he was building. [00:08:25] Dan Runcie: It's good that you mentioned Beyonce too, because that's another example of people just looking at the high level number. People see how many first week sales that Renaissance did, or even the streams that Renaissance has had afterward. There's other artists, whether it's SZA and others that have had albums that have had longer shelf life on streaming versus others, but it's a completely different fan base. This fan base is older. They're not going to sit in front of a computer and just stream your music all day. They're working, but when it's time to show up. They may fly to Vancouver, they may fly to Europe to go look at your tour and go check out what it is. And I think Travis Scott, similarly, he had a fan base that was very beneficial for him with things that were related to e commerce, especially around drops, especially around releases and that worked to him. So when we're talking about artists, finding what product market fit looks like, finding what everything has that's available, it worked to his advantage. So if we fast forward a couple months after the release of Astroworld, Sicko Mode becomes a big hit, it ends up charting, and then that brings Astroworld back to the top of the charts. That February, he performs at the Super Bowl alongside Maroon 5, so then that works to his advantage, and he just continues to have a very strong year. He ends up releasing that documentary and he didn't end up winning a Grammy as we saw the documentary was quite disappointed about that. But then that sets up everything for 2020 and in a year where most musicians struggle because they can't tour and they may have planned to release certain things. Travis Scott's one of the few that actually did win. There was this Forbes article that came out towards the end of 2020 that looked at all of the partnerships that he had with various companies. And we're talking about his collaborations with Nike, Fortnite, McDonald's PlayStation 5, I believe he even had drops associated with the tenant movie that came out that year. They expected that he would gross over a 100Million dollars or that the revenue that he would generate from these things would gross over a 100Million dollars and. It said so much about where we were, especially because people were inside. They didn't have anything better to do than just get the latest merch, get the latest drops. That worked so well to his advantage. And his songs were still popular. I do feel like Astroworld was probably one of the last hip hop albums that felt like it had some legitimate staying power. And then I think that was probably The peak of him, at least what we've seen so far in his career. [00:10:59] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, no, I completely, I completely agree. he was in many ways on top of the world. I think he was really thoughtful about how he got to that position. in some ways, even, you know, when you look at things like, the fortnight show, he was really a pioneer, and the days to follow when it came to Web3 or embracing the Internet or new models for artists, who was frequently cited and maybe he doesn't even really get the credit he deserves, for that, and, you know, I'd be remiss if I'd say, I think, he's lucky in a way that, his fan base demographics skew, a population that consumers or that brands want to attract, right? So the brands that really saw an appeal in his music, were brands willing to spend, I mean, Video games, Nike, the brands that he was able to attract, some artists and a lot of hip hop artists, especially, even when we did our ice spice episode, female artists, right? They're able to get a lot of, brand attention. But when we look at the caliber of the brands that he was able to pull, I think that was the difference between him being a 10 or 20 million a year artist that we were who we would be praising his work ethic versus this 100 million. artist that were like, wow. [00:12:18] Dan Runcie: He literally had the biggest brands in their category, right? It wasn't like he had some subcategory. I feel like the only thing he was missing was a visa or master card type of partnership to be like, or American express or one of those, right? It was always the leader space. [00:12:33] Denisha Kuhlor: The time is now with that. I mean, with Kendrick's tour, I don't know if we would have all guessed that, his partner would be in tech company. So I think it'd be really interesting for his next tour to see who he aligns himself with. [00:12:47] Dan Runcie: The interesting thing with Travis though, is that. As I mentioned, I feel like the 2020 was that peak that we had seen, but then by early 2021, this is when we first start hearing about this forthcoming album, Utopia, he announces that he has this, or he posts a screenshot, which is quite cryptic, but he has this movie coming out with a 24. That seems like it may be titled Utopia. Fans are already anticipating it, and it did feel similar to the Astroworld, but Hype in some ways, because even 2 years before that album came out, even before birds of the trap sing McKnight, he was talking about Astroworld. So we felt like we're back to this era and things seem to be cruising. He had already had successful Astroworld festivals on the ground, especially that 1st 1 he had after, the Astroworld Album that came out in 2018. I believe he had another one in 2019 was quite successful. Obviously, he didn't have one due to the early part of the pandemic in 2020, but he then comes in 2021 and you could say that things were already starting to shift at this point because fans were already in that anticipation point. Okay, when's it going to come? We thought the album is going to come, but then everything changes after the tragedy of the Astroworld festival that he has, as we talked about in the beginning, many people died. There was a stampede. And I think there's a few things that we can dig into, but we don't necessarily need to dig into the depths of that in this conversation here. But how do you feel like that event, set the tone for Travis's career and how much it impacted and everything else that we've seen and maybe we'll expect coming forward. [00:14:28] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So, you know, when I, recently rewatched the documentary, his documentary, Look, Mom, I Can Fly and it kind of highlighted some of the culture, right? Around his shows, how his fans showed up at his shows and the overall like tempo of his performances. while in a lot of ways, I think, it didn't matter if people didn't like it, right? Because the ones that did loved it and were truly embracing that culture. I feel like it showed a new light, and light actually probably is the wrong word, but it cast him, in a way, where I think it was the first Big events in a long time, especially post pandemic or post COVID, in which fans were forced to grapple, with like the predicament of other fans, right? whether you're Travis Scott fan or not, we all know what it's like to be at a show, hopefully, or a big show. And so I think it's really tricky, his reaction and his response. I mean, he did the follow up interview with Charlemagne, and in some ways laid a bit low, obviously his legal stuff was sorted out and things like that. I think that it positions him in a way that as fans or casual fans or listeners. Want to really get to know more of him and his ethos the documentary helped a bit with that to understand him better but I think that social relationship or feeling like that one to one relationship is there is going to be stronger than ever, for the success of this album is, I'm sure in that, that events, divided many of his fans, whether it was the event himself or his reaction and follow up to it. [00:16:25] Dan Runcie: I want to dig into that last point, because this may be a tough question to ask. There obviously was very strong reaction to the tragedy of the event, especially considering the lives lost. There was a lot of discussion around that too. Do you think more of the discussion or change in tone about Travis himself was more from the broader people who may not be a rager themselves? Or do you feel like the ragers themselves, Actually changed after this event. [00:16:56] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, that's a great question, definitely tough in a way, but in some ways it's simple. It was from the non ragers, right? Because that in itself, in some ways, being at a show like that in itself was difficult for people to understand. So seeing the results of the show, I think, invited many people to cast their opinions in a way that was easy, especially because something went wrong. But, it's like for any show or any artist that has a fan base, you really can't explain the momentum of why you're there in the first place. Now, I do think, though, when it comes to, you know, the second option for that question, if there was to be any, maybe, divide or discussion amongst the fan base, it would be around Travis's follow up after, especially given they're all a part of this culture or all a part of this fandom. But in terms of deciding whether to go, and being critical of that in the first place, definitely from non ragers. [00:18:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's the sentiment that I captured too. I remember his initial response. It didn't necessarily feel like it. Sure, I think there's things that you can say we're left to be desired. I think we think about the broader context of who Travis Scott is in himself. It's this balance between do we feel like the person actually does feel sorrow and disappointment for what happened or do they speak in a way that makes us feel that and I know those are two separate things, but I do think that I believe that Travis does have sorrow for these things. I don't know if he in any interview that he's necessarily had ever had those bullet points or those breakaways. That's like, oh, yeah, when Travis Scott said this 1 thing, you know, that's the thing that, you know, stuck with and not saying that necessarily as a knock that just isn't him. It isn't like how Kendrick Lamar may drop some shit in an interview and you're like, oh, wow, never thought of it that way or even how I think Drake does this as well. Some of that could be a bit of an age thing. I know Travis is now I think he's like 31 and, you know, these guys straight Kendrick and Cole are closer to 40 than they are 30, but it's also a bit of a personality and a dynamic thing too. So I think it's like, just because that it just because a tragedy happened, even though a person may feel bad, I don't know. Even the best P. R. crafted statement doesn't turn them into Michael Eric Dyson in terms of how eloquent they may be with using words and things like that. So that was 1 thing that I thought about with the response [00:19:45] Denisha Kuhlor: I do think when we think about the potential ramifications or how it might affect this upcoming album, that like, this culture of likeability and cancel culture do play a role. And I feel like that's why the documentary was so fascinating in some ways because For so many of us, we're probably at the casual Travis Scott, fans or listeners. We definitely, you know, have audio recognition of the songs. at this point we attribute the songs to him. but little did we know or little did the world know the depth and the passion of, his core fans and his stance. And maybe because, you know, this is a thing with the media. So often, the concept of a stan has been profiled as like the teenage girl, right? The Swifties back when Taylor Swift was coming up, or the One Direction fans, or the Justin Bieber fans that, which is not necessarily Travis fan base, but the similarities in terms of passion. What he means to them, and the music are right there. [00:20:50] Dan Runcie: And I think that's a good place to transition into what we then expect for Utopia. Do you think that those same fans will show up in the same way that we've seen them show up with Astroworld, show up with these merch drops, show up with these product sales year in year out, especially the way they did from that 2018 to 2020 stretch. [00:21:10] Denisha Kuhlor: You know, it's what I'm most curious about myself. When we look at four to five years, it'd be easy to say, you know, obviously, that was a big part of people's lives for whatever age or part of their life they were going through, and naturally, they'll at least give him the first look or first right of refusal to do. So, I'd be remiss though. If I'd say these last 4 or 5 years will really go down in history. And it changed so many people, and truly transformative ways. So I wonder if the conversion in terms of the amount of, like, stands that he'll be able to keep from, the last album to Utopia will be as high as maybe it could have been if the world looked a little different four or four or five years ago. What I do think, though, is, and we saw this with SZA. It really can stand the test of time, especially if the relationship is strong. Fans are ready, audiences are excited. And they want to show up and give that power in a lot of ways. I wonder what's the difference between a fan base that stays. I would point to a Taylor Swift fan base, for example, obviously the Swifties versus a fan base that moves on, you know, you think of the J. Cole song, I think when he's 1985 and he talks about like the actual cyclical nature of hip hop and rap, right? From an artist perspective and for the majority of the artists. They don't hang on and they don't convert. So it's going to be really interesting, but my hunch is that he's going to have to pick up a lot of new fans along the way, only because his fans are in such a stage of adolescence or figuring things out, at least his biggest diehard fans, and can very much be in a new place in their lives now. [00:23:08] Dan Runcie: If the over under on what Travis Scott could do for this album. I'm thinking purely on a first week sales metric here, as you mentioned, Astroworlds did 537. If that's the over under I'm taking the under if the over under is 400. I'm taking the under. And to be honest with you, even if the over under is 300, I'm still taking the under. And here's why, there's so much that has changed in streaming and music since then. And when Travis Scott released Astroworld, hip hop had such an early mover advantage on streaming that it was in the streaming services benefit to push hip hop and to push the hip hop stars that are out in front. So that same summer that Astroworld comes out, Drake had released his album, Scorpion, maybe like 6, 7 weeks before, and there were a few other ones that were strong on the charts, but there were no Taylor, no Beyonce, or no other, you know, big artists that were there at least releasing from that perspective, but a lot's changed now where I don't think the streaming services necessarily need to rely on hip hop in that same way as heavily because of all the growth that's there. Morgan Wallen is still doing over 100, units sold per week and we're almost 20 weeks running now. Country artists weren't doing that in 2018. So it's a very different landscape now. So that's one aspect of it. The 2nd aspect of it is this album will be, at least to my knowledge, 1 of the 1st to take advantage of billboard reintroducing album bundle packs. And that is 1 of the things that Travis benefited from. They took it away for several years. So we saw a lot of hip hop artists take a decline. They'll now bring it back. It's going to be slightly different. However. I think what's changed a bit is that I don't know if hype beast and hype culture is necessarily the same as it as it was in 2018, because I feel like that was the height of when Supreme was doing its best and getting those big, P E deals from Carlisle group. And all of these companies were just, and you're seeing all these specials and document mini documentaries on what is hype and why do these companies start? And why are all these? Gen Z and young millennials lining up at whatever hour across the street. And in a way that, yeah, that stuff still happens, but it doesn't happen in the same aspect. And I don't think someone like Travis Scott has much of a monopoly on that culture, the way that he did then. So I think that hurts it a little bit. And I think the 3rd thing with the absence of a song as big as sickle mode, and even if Travis Scott has better songs on this album, the sickle mode, I haven't heard it. I can't speak to that. It's harder for even a single song in hip hop to capture as much mindshare today in 2013, 2023, as Sicko mode did in 2018. And I remember there was some study that. or some analysis, I think the New York Times or 1 of those places put out where they looked at all the streams of Astroworld and an overwhelming majority of them were people streaming Sicko mode. That's no surprise. That's just the way it is. And you know, it's a power law thing. You need that 1 or 2 hits really to drive things forward, will he pull a few singles that have been loose ones that have done? Well, potentially, Yeah, probably, but we'll see, I think actually, and I know you want to talk about this in a little bit, but Lil Uzi Vert's pink tape could probably be a helpful proxy here. So he released a album in, 2020, and I think it did just under 300, 000, units, and then he released another album a couple of weeks ago, the pink tape, and then that did around one 67. So almost a 50% drop. I mean, he still did number one, but there was a pretty sizable drop. I think Lil Uzi Vert is a different, you know, case than Travis Scott, but this is kind of what we've seen even artists like Drake and others. It's tough to reach those numbers that they did at the height of streaming when they were doing strong numbers and everything else. So I think that if you want to even say someone like J Cole is a cop, I think that his last album was still under 300, 000 or so. So I'd be surprised if Travis Scott got to that level. And the 1 thing I'll say, 2, is I know you mentioned, you know, SZA and just how that fan base stays. We did have some hard numbers to be able to show that just seeing how scissors control stayed on the charts for the past 5 years. I don't yeah, I don't see Astro world on the charts in that same type of way. So if that indicates anything from a staying power perspective, I don't know, but that's where I sit with it. [00:27:36] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, no, I'm aligned. I think we're going to see somewhere between 200 K to 300K optimistically. I think that's a great, outcome. I also think the point you made about, hype culture. Is really important, right? we're now in an era where people are covering, the outfits on secession, right? Where people are leaning towards old money or, you know, that culture. it's a lot different. you've seen, you know, even when you look at major houses like LVMH or conglomerates, the efforts and the investment that they've had to put just to stay on top of consumers minds and gain that attention share. I think while bundles are exciting and while it's super exciting that bundles are back and will be counted. It really is going to take a lot for it to garner fans attention. Even with Beyonce, I think maybe, I mean, what she did was really interesting with the mystery boxes, but it'll need to have some type of true pull or gravitas beyond really just the product itself, because consumers have built affinity to a lot more brands, a lot more rising brands, a lot more, influencers even, to justify potentially just that much. [00:28:58] Dan Runcie: What do you make of the Pyramids performance that's upcoming for Travis Scott? [00:29:03] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So the first thing that comes to mind is Russ and Russ's tweet saying that he, you know, he did it first and his fans reminded everyone, what I will say is. I do think it's a testament to his artistry, and his ability to truly want to or have this desire to maybe think outside the box and try new things. As someone who, goes back and forth between, I guess, Africa and, the States, I think those types of things are always tricky, in terms of going to any place, right? And maybe in some ways wanting to encompass it as part of your art, while not always fully immersing yourself in the location.  So I know he's, an artist and obviously want to respect his artistic will. But when it comes down to how it might be more broadly perceived outside the United States. I'm really curious to actually see the sentiment. What are your thoughts there? [00:30:05] Dan Runcie: That's a good point. And something that isn't necessarily talked about a lot, right? A lot of the Westerners may see that and be like, oh, dope. Cool. Did it in one of the seven wonders of the world, right? But yeah, what do Egyptians feel about that? What do people from the Middle East feel about that? Is this a stunt to capture attention? And in many ways, we know that it is an opportunity to capture attention. Just the statement itself. Oh, I'm doing this. You want to make it big. You do want to make it big. It definitely captured my attention. I'm not going to act like I'm above it, right? Oh, this could be interesting to see, but I think you bring up a very good point about it. And is there some type of tie in or some type of relationship there? We'll see, I don't know, but I think that's a good thing to think about there. The 1 question I do want to ask you before we wrap things up here is. We talk a lot. Oh, you and I've talked a lot about artists, market fit, creator, market fit, and just how they find products and things that work well for them. And I look at people like Mr. Beast and he's someone who they've launched products. Off of his likeness and off of his brand, some of those products haven't worked as well. We recently heard that beast burgers had shut down and there's also been several P. E. and venture capital firms that have tried to spin up investment company or investment firms that are specifically focused on either, A, trying to find the next Mr. Beast or be trying to fund projects or businesses that are based off of the likeness of the influence that these creators do have. Travis Scott has a lot of similarities, especially we think about the influence from an e commerce perspective. I don't know if the timing was now, maybe the time it could have been a few years ago. But do you think there was an opportunity for him to have launched a more traditional business off of Cactus Jack, the same way that we see he's so synonymous with drop culture and he's so synonymous with those things. Was there an opportunity to do something like that? [00:32:06] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think absolutely, you know, nowadays it's really interesting in terms of some of the biggest brands have, skewed beyond the celebrity. People had a lot to say about Skims, right? But we can't deny, that it's a great business and people really like the product. Kim Kardashian or not, they like the product. I think during that period when he was on top of the world, that was a really interesting time, especially during COVID when he wasn't, traveling as much or touring as much, to be able to bring something to market that would really excite fans and fans and consumers, it almost feels like that opportunities past now, because that like height of fandom is not the same. But I also think that a lot of artists don't want to, and maybe that is very much okay, when I watched the documentary, I kept reflecting back on. The ownership that he gravitated to taking when it came to the control of his shows. I mean, getting in the weeds about his lights, his sound, his pyrotechnics, to a level that almost reminded me of Beyonce. In the sense of how much he wanted to direct and produce the show in real time and how passionate he was about that. So while, the answer is yes, right? And if I was talking to a manager, an agent, they'd be like, hell yeah. I also think it's okay to maybe recognize that he had, like we said, some of the biggest brands in the world, cutting him really, really great checks that required him to be hands on, Yes, but also gave him a certain level of ability to turn off his laptop for the day or walk away while being able to tap into the supply chains and resources and expertise that they had at their disposal. So, while yes, in some ways he's done a great job at becoming really liquid off just his likeness. , and maybe he's not necessarily from an artist market fit standpoint, the archetype of artists that would have done it long enough for it to be lucrative or successful in comparison to his other ventures. [00:34:23] Dan Runcie: Great comparison on Beyonce. We've clearly seen some of the e commerce and brand struggles that some of her products have had recently, but people will show up for the concert people would show up for the event and you talking about how particular and focused Travis is on the ownership of the performance and the stage. It makes me think of that line in antidote where he's like kicking the camera man off of my stage. Cause I don't like, I always capture my angles, which was literally from something that he did at a national concert. So I think that's a good point there. And of course, underlying, let's say he launched something either end of 2019 and, or beginning of 2020, like right when things were taken off. It's one thing for the Travis Scott brand itself to have taken a hit after the Astroworld tragedy. I could even imagine where that company would be today. And especially just given where anything that we just talked about, how, you know, hype beast culture and things like that just aren't where they are right now. So we'll see, I say all that to say, I know that you shared a bunch of caveats in this conversation. I'm still going to listen to the album. I'm still intrigued. I do want this person to succeed. I very much like Travis Scott, but I also realized that for the average artist having a four to five year peak run is much more common, especially for someone that reaches those levels. And then even someone having a true generational career like Drake or Jay Z is few and far between. So even if it doesn't hit the same numbers, I don't think it's necessarily a knock. It's more so reality of the business. [00:35:51] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think, the Drake's JC's, even the J Cole's are only going to become rare and rare as attention gets harder, but a strong 5 year, strong 5 to 7 year career that makes truly like, good income that an artist can then use to divest or maybe even sell their catalog, is like the 1% nowadays, for the industry. I agree. [00:36:13] Dan Runcie: Indeed. Well, Denisha, this was fun. Thanks again for coming on. And who knows, maybe we'll have to check in after Utopia at some point to see what the post Travis Scott return looks like. Thanks again for coming [00:36:25] Denisha Kuhlor: We definitely need an update. Of course, thanks for having me. [00:36:28] Dan Runcie: All right. Great. [00:36:29] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast. Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 20 Jul 2023 09:00:00 -0000 What’s Next for Travis Scott? full Dan Runcie Travis Scott is in album mode. Utopia will be his first album since 2018, but a lot has changed since then. The industry isn’t as hip-hop dominant, hypebeast culture has shifted, and Travis is still navigating things after the 2021 Astroworld Festival tragedy. How will all this influence Utopia? I broke it all down with friend of the pod, Denisha Kuhlor. Here’s what we covered: 0:43 How hip-hop has changed since Astroworld 8:23 Travis sold a lifestyle to success 9:29 Why Travis attracted category-leading brand sponsors 13:51 Lasting effect of Astroworld Festival tragedy  19:11 How will the “Ragers” respond to Utopia?  24:12 Over/under on Utopia’s first-week sales 30:01 Pyramid performance in Egypt 31:09 Did Travis miss out on building out a major independent brand? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: When we look at the caliber of the brands that he was able to pull, I think that was the difference between him being a 10 or 20 million a year artist that we were who we would be praising his work ethic versus this $100 million artist that were like, wow. [00:00:17] Dan Runcie Intro Audio: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:43] Dan Runcie: All right, we're going to get deep into the world of Utopia. Travis Scott is upon the release of his fourth album, and this one has been long anticipated for several years now. But a lot's changed since the last time that Travis Scott released his album, Astroworld, which came out summer 2018. But there's been two big things that have happened. One, the pandemic. And then two, the tragedy of the Astroworld concert, and we have seen the heights of Travis Scott in that era, thinking specifically about the Fornite series that he had, we've also seen the lows of it as well, especially given the aftermath of the people that died and all of the injuries and all of the broader conversations around concert safety. Travis Scott's role in this himself and other things too. And I want to talk about this with you. So we have Denisha Culloran, who's the founder of STAN. You work specifically in artist engagement and have written pieces on many of the superstars. Let's first start with where hip hop is because we're now in 2023, and I feel like we're in a very different spot than we were when Travis Scott released his last album, Astroworld. So what's changed for you? Where were we with hip hop then and music then? And where are we now? [00:01:59] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think that hip hop is, undergoing a new era, at least from a quantitative or commercial success standpoint, in the last few years and probably in some ways due to the pandemic, I feel like we've seen the emergence of what I like to think of as dance music. I mean, Beyonce released a dance album, Drake, one of the biggest hip hop stars himself released a dance album. Even when you look at the rise of music, non English music, right? Whether that's music coming out of Africa or, you know, what Bad Bunny has done as well. People are, gravitating to music that doesn't necessarily have to do with the lyrics in the way that rap shines. So I would say to sum it up that rap is having, a bit of a fall from dominance. [00:02:46] Dan Runcie: And it's interesting with Travis Scott too, because I feel like he benefited from this transition to an era where people aren't necessarily listening for. The lyrics, the people that love Travis Scott were so much more interested into the vibe, this rager mentality, and he was a hip hop rock star in terms of how he built himself. And I don't know if a song like highest in the room is necessarily 1 that you're trying to hear in a club, or you're trying to hear dancing, but and so do you think that this transition away from lyrics and more divides? Do you think this hurts someone like Travis or helps them? [00:03:22] Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I like that categorization, hip hop, rock star. I mean, if we were to look at the charts, the one person who has waved the flag for hip hop this year, truly from a commercial standpoint, is Lil Uzi Vert. And I would compare him or categorize him the same way. So when I think about, when I think about that, I say it helps him. [00:03:44] Dan Runcie: Lil Uzi Vert did sample System of a Down in his most recent album. And he definitely has a few songs that sound like that post grunge early 2000s types of artists like Switchfoot and stuff like that. So there's a bit of that mixed in there. Travis Scott has benefited from that too. He's also benefited from having songs where. You heard multiple sounds being merged into each other. I'm thinking, of course, like sicko mode where you can break the whole song. It sounds like three parts in one together. But again, that was 2018. We're in a very different time right now for hip hop and its releases. And I say that to say the success that Travis Scott had in 2018 to 2020, because I do feel like in a lot of ways, that was the commercial peak. Said as much about him as it did about the broader streaming era, as it did about where culture was. So 1st, he himself, he emerges on the scene. He speaks to this audience of hip hop fans that. Really didn't have someone that was reaching them specifically Travis Scott born in the early 90s. So he's still millennial, but he definitely reached more of that older Gen Z audience. And let's say someone like Drake or Kendrick or J Cole did and he related to that hype beast culture. He did it with how he dropped his music, how he thought about merch collaborations and any of the partnerships that he had. And we'll get into those in a minute, but that was the ethos of what he did. And especially at that time with the way that Billboard was counting album bundles that really worked to his advantage because he combined his hype beast and his ability to sell things and essentially be a walking Supreme style artists where when he drops Astroworld, he literally has this 24 hour merge operation that is dropping a new product every hour of this. And that's how that album is able to do nearly 50% of its first week. Sales coming from more coming from these albums that come through, or these album bundles that come through. He still did quite well in streaming, but the combination of those leads to him having, I believe it was 537, 000 units selling in his 1st week. And usually the people that project these things are usually pretty on course. And I remember the projections leading up to Astroworld, which like Utopia was also pretty hyped album, but people were expecting things may be in the mid to high 200, 000 range. And he more than doubles that. And you rarely see that much of an artist exceeding the expectations of that perspective. I think a lot of it has to do with people just not expecting him to have dominated things the way that they did. And even though it is 1 of these things where you have to, in some ways, read the fine print to see how those numbers came through. The average person just sees the top line number. No different than you may see. Oh, this movie grossed a hundred and fifty million dollars. You're not trying to read the fine line to say, okay, well, how many of those tickets were IMAX versus cheap movies where it costs less than ten dollars. So go see matinee, you just want to see what's that top line number and it worked really well to his advantage and because there was still model culture definitely wasn't around in 2018 in that way, but we've only become more fragmented since then. So there was still this opportunity, especially with the growth of streaming and these services to really elevate a star. And I think that worked to his advantage as well. So the timing and everything of that Astroworld release couldn't have worked better for him. [00:07:20] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I agree. I think he was really disciplined or it just came natural in terms of building a business that exuded a lifestyle. And it was around the time where having this, like, flywheel of products, benefited, of course, not only the product that he was selling or pushing, but also counted towards his streams.  And I think, you know, in the past, a lot of artists maybe didn't get to show their dominance in that way, and our catalog episode, we talked about Beyonce, and Beyonce's numbers and whether they met expectations or didn't meet expectations in terms of her streaming numbers, or in some ways, how she shows up on the charts. But when you see what that fandom looks like mobilized in the form of her live shows, one, you know, a few data points in aggregate, especially when it relates to, streaming or listening habits, clearly don't tell the full story about the fandom. and I think that's where Travis Scott was really able to at that time, show us the power of what he was building. [00:08:25] Dan Runcie: It's good that you mentioned Beyonce too, because that's another example of people just looking at the high level number. People see how many first week sales that Renaissance did, or even the streams that Renaissance has had afterward. There's other artists, whether it's SZA and others that have had albums that have had longer shelf life on streaming versus others, but it's a completely different fan base. This fan base is older. They're not going to sit in front of a computer and just stream your music all day. They're working, but when it's time to show up. They may fly to Vancouver, they may fly to Europe to go look at your tour and go check out what it is. And I think Travis Scott, similarly, he had a fan base that was very beneficial for him with things that were related to e commerce, especially around drops, especially around releases and that worked to him. So when we're talking about artists, finding what product market fit looks like, finding what everything has that's available, it worked to his advantage. So if we fast forward a couple months after the release of Astroworld, Sicko Mode becomes a big hit, it ends up charting, and then that brings Astroworld back to the top of the charts. That February, he performs at the Super Bowl alongside Maroon 5, so then that works to his advantage, and he just continues to have a very strong year. He ends up releasing that documentary and he didn't end up winning a Grammy as we saw the documentary was quite disappointed about that. But then that sets up everything for 2020 and in a year where most musicians struggle because they can't tour and they may have planned to release certain things. Travis Scott's one of the few that actually did win. There was this Forbes article that came out towards the end of 2020 that looked at all of the partnerships that he had with various companies. And we're talking about his collaborations with Nike, Fortnite, McDonald's PlayStation 5, I believe he even had drops associated with the tenant movie that came out that year. They expected that he would gross over a 100Million dollars or that the revenue that he would generate from these things would gross over a 100Million dollars and. It said so much about where we were, especially because people were inside. They didn't have anything better to do than just get the latest merch, get the latest drops. That worked so well to his advantage. And his songs were still popular. I do feel like Astroworld was probably one of the last hip hop albums that felt like it had some legitimate staying power. And then I think that was probably The peak of him, at least what we've seen so far in his career. [00:10:59] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, no, I completely, I completely agree. he was in many ways on top of the world. I think he was really thoughtful about how he got to that position. in some ways, even, you know, when you look at things like, the fortnight show, he was really a pioneer, and the days to follow when it came to Web3 or embracing the Internet or new models for artists, who was frequently cited and maybe he doesn't even really get the credit he deserves, for that, and, you know, I'd be remiss if I'd say, I think, he's lucky in a way that, his fan base demographics skew, a population that consumers or that brands want to attract, right? So the brands that really saw an appeal in his music, were brands willing to spend, I mean, Video games, Nike, the brands that he was able to attract, some artists and a lot of hip hop artists, especially, even when we did our ice spice episode, female artists, right? They're able to get a lot of, brand attention. But when we look at the caliber of the brands that he was able to pull, I think that was the difference between him being a 10 or 20 million a year artist that we were who we would be praising his work ethic versus this 100 million. artist that were like, wow. [00:12:18] Dan Runcie: He literally had the biggest brands in their category, right? It wasn't like he had some subcategory. I feel like the only thing he was missing was a visa or master card type of partnership to be like, or American express or one of those, right? It was always the leader space. [00:12:33] Denisha Kuhlor: The time is now with that. I mean, with Kendrick's tour, I don't know if we would have all guessed that, his partner would be in tech company. So I think it'd be really interesting for his next tour to see who he aligns himself with. [00:12:47] Dan Runcie: The interesting thing with Travis though, is that. As I mentioned, I feel like the 2020 was that peak that we had seen, but then by early 2021, this is when we first start hearing about this forthcoming album, Utopia, he announces that he has this, or he posts a screenshot, which is quite cryptic, but he has this movie coming out with a 24. That seems like it may be titled Utopia. Fans are already anticipating it, and it did feel similar to the Astroworld, but Hype in some ways, because even 2 years before that album came out, even before birds of the trap sing McKnight, he was talking about Astroworld. So we felt like we're back to this era and things seem to be cruising. He had already had successful Astroworld festivals on the ground, especially that 1st 1 he had after, the Astroworld Album that came out in 2018. I believe he had another one in 2019 was quite successful. Obviously, he didn't have one due to the early part of the pandemic in 2020, but he then comes in 2021 and you could say that things were already starting to shift at this point because fans were already in that anticipation point. Okay, when's it going to come? We thought the album is going to come, but then everything changes after the tragedy of the Astroworld festival that he has, as we talked about in the beginning, many people died. There was a stampede. And I think there's a few things that we can dig into, but we don't necessarily need to dig into the depths of that in this conversation here. But how do you feel like that event, set the tone for Travis's career and how much it impacted and everything else that we've seen and maybe we'll expect coming forward. [00:14:28] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So, you know, when I, recently rewatched the documentary, his documentary, Look, Mom, I Can Fly and it kind of highlighted some of the culture, right? Around his shows, how his fans showed up at his shows and the overall like tempo of his performances. while in a lot of ways, I think, it didn't matter if people didn't like it, right? Because the ones that did loved it and were truly embracing that culture. I feel like it showed a new light, and light actually probably is the wrong word, but it cast him, in a way, where I think it was the first Big events in a long time, especially post pandemic or post COVID, in which fans were forced to grapple, with like the predicament of other fans, right? whether you're Travis Scott fan or not, we all know what it's like to be at a show, hopefully, or a big show. And so I think it's really tricky, his reaction and his response. I mean, he did the follow up interview with Charlemagne, and in some ways laid a bit low, obviously his legal stuff was sorted out and things like that. I think that it positions him in a way that as fans or casual fans or listeners. Want to really get to know more of him and his ethos the documentary helped a bit with that to understand him better but I think that social relationship or feeling like that one to one relationship is there is going to be stronger than ever, for the success of this album is, I'm sure in that, that events, divided many of his fans, whether it was the event himself or his reaction and follow up to it. [00:16:25] Dan Runcie: I want to dig into that last point, because this may be a tough question to ask. There obviously was very strong reaction to the tragedy of the event, especially considering the lives lost. There was a lot of discussion around that too. Do you think more of the discussion or change in tone about Travis himself was more from the broader people who may not be a rager themselves? Or do you feel like the ragers themselves, Actually changed after this event. [00:16:56] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, that's a great question, definitely tough in a way, but in some ways it's simple. It was from the non ragers, right? Because that in itself, in some ways, being at a show like that in itself was difficult for people to understand. So seeing the results of the show, I think, invited many people to cast their opinions in a way that was easy, especially because something went wrong. But, it's like for any show or any artist that has a fan base, you really can't explain the momentum of why you're there in the first place. Now, I do think, though, when it comes to, you know, the second option for that question, if there was to be any, maybe, divide or discussion amongst the fan base, it would be around Travis's follow up after, especially given they're all a part of this culture or all a part of this fandom. But in terms of deciding whether to go, and being critical of that in the first place, definitely from non ragers. [00:18:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's the sentiment that I captured too. I remember his initial response. It didn't necessarily feel like it. Sure, I think there's things that you can say we're left to be desired. I think we think about the broader context of who Travis Scott is in himself. It's this balance between do we feel like the person actually does feel sorrow and disappointment for what happened or do they speak in a way that makes us feel that and I know those are two separate things, but I do think that I believe that Travis does have sorrow for these things. I don't know if he in any interview that he's necessarily had ever had those bullet points or those breakaways. That's like, oh, yeah, when Travis Scott said this 1 thing, you know, that's the thing that, you know, stuck with and not saying that necessarily as a knock that just isn't him. It isn't like how Kendrick Lamar may drop some shit in an interview and you're like, oh, wow, never thought of it that way or even how I think Drake does this as well. Some of that could be a bit of an age thing. I know Travis is now I think he's like 31 and, you know, these guys straight Kendrick and Cole are closer to 40 than they are 30, but it's also a bit of a personality and a dynamic thing too. So I think it's like, just because that it just because a tragedy happened, even though a person may feel bad, I don't know. Even the best P. R. crafted statement doesn't turn them into Michael Eric Dyson in terms of how eloquent they may be with using words and things like that. So that was 1 thing that I thought about with the response [00:19:45] Denisha Kuhlor: I do think when we think about the potential ramifications or how it might affect this upcoming album, that like, this culture of likeability and cancel culture do play a role. And I feel like that's why the documentary was so fascinating in some ways because For so many of us, we're probably at the casual Travis Scott, fans or listeners. We definitely, you know, have audio recognition of the songs. at this point we attribute the songs to him. but little did we know or little did the world know the depth and the passion of, his core fans and his stance. And maybe because, you know, this is a thing with the media. So often, the concept of a stan has been profiled as like the teenage girl, right? The Swifties back when Taylor Swift was coming up, or the One Direction fans, or the Justin Bieber fans that, which is not necessarily Travis fan base, but the similarities in terms of passion. What he means to them, and the music are right there. [00:20:50] Dan Runcie: And I think that's a good place to transition into what we then expect for Utopia. Do you think that those same fans will show up in the same way that we've seen them show up with Astroworld, show up with these merch drops, show up with these product sales year in year out, especially the way they did from that 2018 to 2020 stretch. [00:21:10] Denisha Kuhlor: You know, it's what I'm most curious about myself. When we look at four to five years, it'd be easy to say, you know, obviously, that was a big part of people's lives for whatever age or part of their life they were going through, and naturally, they'll at least give him the first look or first right of refusal to do. So, I'd be remiss though. If I'd say these last 4 or 5 years will really go down in history. And it changed so many people, and truly transformative ways. So I wonder if the conversion in terms of the amount of, like, stands that he'll be able to keep from, the last album to Utopia will be as high as maybe it could have been if the world looked a little different four or four or five years ago. What I do think, though, is, and we saw this with SZA. It really can stand the test of time, especially if the relationship is strong. Fans are ready, audiences are excited. And they want to show up and give that power in a lot of ways. I wonder what's the difference between a fan base that stays. I would point to a Taylor Swift fan base, for example, obviously the Swifties versus a fan base that moves on, you know, you think of the J. Cole song, I think when he's 1985 and he talks about like the actual cyclical nature of hip hop and rap, right? From an artist perspective and for the majority of the artists. They don't hang on and they don't convert. So it's going to be really interesting, but my hunch is that he's going to have to pick up a lot of new fans along the way, only because his fans are in such a stage of adolescence or figuring things out, at least his biggest diehard fans, and can very much be in a new place in their lives now. [00:23:08] Dan Runcie: If the over under on what Travis Scott could do for this album. I'm thinking purely on a first week sales metric here, as you mentioned, Astroworlds did 537. If that's the over under I'm taking the under if the over under is 400. I'm taking the under. And to be honest with you, even if the over under is 300, I'm still taking the under. And here's why, there's so much that has changed in streaming and music since then. And when Travis Scott released Astroworld, hip hop had such an early mover advantage on streaming that it was in the streaming services benefit to push hip hop and to push the hip hop stars that are out in front. So that same summer that Astroworld comes out, Drake had released his album, Scorpion, maybe like 6, 7 weeks before, and there were a few other ones that were strong on the charts, but there were no Taylor, no Beyonce, or no other, you know, big artists that were there at least releasing from that perspective, but a lot's changed now where I don't think the streaming services necessarily need to rely on hip hop in that same way as heavily because of all the growth that's there. Morgan Wallen is still doing over 100, units sold per week and we're almost 20 weeks running now. Country artists weren't doing that in 2018. So it's a very different landscape now. So that's one aspect of it. The 2nd aspect of it is this album will be, at least to my knowledge, 1 of the 1st to take advantage of billboard reintroducing album bundle packs. And that is 1 of the things that Travis benefited from. They took it away for several years. So we saw a lot of hip hop artists take a decline. They'll now bring it back. It's going to be slightly different. However. I think what's changed a bit is that I don't know if hype beast and hype culture is necessarily the same as it as it was in 2018, because I feel like that was the height of when Supreme was doing its best and getting those big, P E deals from Carlisle group. And all of these companies were just, and you're seeing all these specials and document mini documentaries on what is hype and why do these companies start? And why are all these? Gen Z and young millennials lining up at whatever hour across the street. And in a way that, yeah, that stuff still happens, but it doesn't happen in the same aspect. And I don't think someone like Travis Scott has much of a monopoly on that culture, the way that he did then. So I think that hurts it a little bit. And I think the 3rd thing with the absence of a song as big as sickle mode, and even if Travis Scott has better songs on this album, the sickle mode, I haven't heard it. I can't speak to that. It's harder for even a single song in hip hop to capture as much mindshare today in 2013, 2023, as Sicko mode did in 2018. And I remember there was some study that. or some analysis, I think the New York Times or 1 of those places put out where they looked at all the streams of Astroworld and an overwhelming majority of them were people streaming Sicko mode. That's no surprise. That's just the way it is. And you know, it's a power law thing. You need that 1 or 2 hits really to drive things forward, will he pull a few singles that have been loose ones that have done? Well, potentially, Yeah, probably, but we'll see, I think actually, and I know you want to talk about this in a little bit, but Lil Uzi Vert's pink tape could probably be a helpful proxy here. So he released a album in, 2020, and I think it did just under 300, 000, units, and then he released another album a couple of weeks ago, the pink tape, and then that did around one 67. So almost a 50% drop. I mean, he still did number one, but there was a pretty sizable drop. I think Lil Uzi Vert is a different, you know, case than Travis Scott, but this is kind of what we've seen even artists like Drake and others. It's tough to reach those numbers that they did at the height of streaming when they were doing strong numbers and everything else. So I think that if you want to even say someone like J Cole is a cop, I think that his last album was still under 300, 000 or so. So I'd be surprised if Travis Scott got to that level. And the 1 thing I'll say, 2, is I know you mentioned, you know, SZA and just how that fan base stays. We did have some hard numbers to be able to show that just seeing how scissors control stayed on the charts for the past 5 years. I don't yeah, I don't see Astro world on the charts in that same type of way. So if that indicates anything from a staying power perspective, I don't know, but that's where I sit with it. [00:27:36] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, no, I'm aligned. I think we're going to see somewhere between 200 K to 300K optimistically. I think that's a great, outcome. I also think the point you made about, hype culture. Is really important, right? we're now in an era where people are covering, the outfits on secession, right? Where people are leaning towards old money or, you know, that culture. it's a lot different. you've seen, you know, even when you look at major houses like LVMH or conglomerates, the efforts and the investment that they've had to put just to stay on top of consumers minds and gain that attention share. I think while bundles are exciting and while it's super exciting that bundles are back and will be counted. It really is going to take a lot for it to garner fans attention. Even with Beyonce, I think maybe, I mean, what she did was really interesting with the mystery boxes, but it'll need to have some type of true pull or gravitas beyond really just the product itself, because consumers have built affinity to a lot more brands, a lot more rising brands, a lot more, influencers even, to justify potentially just that much. [00:28:58] Dan Runcie: What do you make of the Pyramids performance that's upcoming for Travis Scott? [00:29:03] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So the first thing that comes to mind is Russ and Russ's tweet saying that he, you know, he did it first and his fans reminded everyone, what I will say is. I do think it's a testament to his artistry, and his ability to truly want to or have this desire to maybe think outside the box and try new things. As someone who, goes back and forth between, I guess, Africa and, the States, I think those types of things are always tricky, in terms of going to any place, right? And maybe in some ways wanting to encompass it as part of your art, while not always fully immersing yourself in the location.  So I know he's, an artist and obviously want to respect his artistic will. But when it comes down to how it might be more broadly perceived outside the United States. I'm really curious to actually see the sentiment. What are your thoughts there? [00:30:05] Dan Runcie: That's a good point. And something that isn't necessarily talked about a lot, right? A lot of the Westerners may see that and be like, oh, dope. Cool. Did it in one of the seven wonders of the world, right? But yeah, what do Egyptians feel about that? What do people from the Middle East feel about that? Is this a stunt to capture attention? And in many ways, we know that it is an opportunity to capture attention. Just the statement itself. Oh, I'm doing this. You want to make it big. You do want to make it big. It definitely captured my attention. I'm not going to act like I'm above it, right? Oh, this could be interesting to see, but I think you bring up a very good point about it. And is there some type of tie in or some type of relationship there? We'll see, I don't know, but I think that's a good thing to think about there. The 1 question I do want to ask you before we wrap things up here is. We talk a lot. Oh, you and I've talked a lot about artists, market fit, creator, market fit, and just how they find products and things that work well for them. And I look at people like Mr. Beast and he's someone who they've launched products. Off of his likeness and off of his brand, some of those products haven't worked as well. We recently heard that beast burgers had shut down and there's also been several P. E. and venture capital firms that have tried to spin up investment company or investment firms that are specifically focused on either, A, trying to find the next Mr. Beast or be trying to fund projects or businesses that are based off of the likeness of the influence that these creators do have. Travis Scott has a lot of similarities, especially we think about the influence from an e commerce perspective. I don't know if the timing was now, maybe the time it could have been a few years ago. But do you think there was an opportunity for him to have launched a more traditional business off of Cactus Jack, the same way that we see he's so synonymous with drop culture and he's so synonymous with those things. Was there an opportunity to do something like that? [00:32:06] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think absolutely, you know, nowadays it's really interesting in terms of some of the biggest brands have, skewed beyond the celebrity. People had a lot to say about Skims, right? But we can't deny, that it's a great business and people really like the product. Kim Kardashian or not, they like the product. I think during that period when he was on top of the world, that was a really interesting time, especially during COVID when he wasn't, traveling as much or touring as much, to be able to bring something to market that would really excite fans and fans and consumers, it almost feels like that opportunities past now, because that like height of fandom is not the same. But I also think that a lot of artists don't want to, and maybe that is very much okay, when I watched the documentary, I kept reflecting back on. The ownership that he gravitated to taking when it came to the control of his shows. I mean, getting in the weeds about his lights, his sound, his pyrotechnics, to a level that almost reminded me of Beyonce. In the sense of how much he wanted to direct and produce the show in real time and how passionate he was about that. So while, the answer is yes, right? And if I was talking to a manager, an agent, they'd be like, hell yeah. I also think it's okay to maybe recognize that he had, like we said, some of the biggest brands in the world, cutting him really, really great checks that required him to be hands on, Yes, but also gave him a certain level of ability to turn off his laptop for the day or walk away while being able to tap into the supply chains and resources and expertise that they had at their disposal. So, while yes, in some ways he's done a great job at becoming really liquid off just his likeness. , and maybe he's not necessarily from an artist market fit standpoint, the archetype of artists that would have done it long enough for it to be lucrative or successful in comparison to his other ventures. [00:34:23] Dan Runcie: Great comparison on Beyonce. We've clearly seen some of the e commerce and brand struggles that some of her products have had recently, but people will show up for the concert people would show up for the event and you talking about how particular and focused Travis is on the ownership of the performance and the stage. It makes me think of that line in antidote where he's like kicking the camera man off of my stage. Cause I don't like, I always capture my angles, which was literally from something that he did at a national concert. So I think that's a good point there. And of course, underlying, let's say he launched something either end of 2019 and, or beginning of 2020, like right when things were taken off. It's one thing for the Travis Scott brand itself to have taken a hit after the Astroworld tragedy. I could even imagine where that company would be today. And especially just given where anything that we just talked about, how, you know, hype beast culture and things like that just aren't where they are right now. So we'll see, I say all that to say, I know that you shared a bunch of caveats in this conversation. I'm still going to listen to the album. I'm still intrigued. I do want this person to succeed. I very much like Travis Scott, but I also realized that for the average artist having a four to five year peak run is much more common, especially for someone that reaches those levels. And then even someone having a true generational career like Drake or Jay Z is few and far between. So even if it doesn't hit the same numbers, I don't think it's necessarily a knock. It's more so reality of the business. [00:35:51] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think, the Drake's JC's, even the J Cole's are only going to become rare and rare as attention gets harder, but a strong 5 year, strong 5 to 7 year career that makes truly like, good income that an artist can then use to divest or maybe even sell their catalog, is like the 1% nowadays, for the industry. I agree. [00:36:13] Dan Runcie: Indeed. Well, Denisha, this was fun. Thanks again for coming on. And who knows, maybe we'll have to check in after Utopia at some point to see what the post Travis Scott return looks like. Thanks again for coming [00:36:25] Denisha Kuhlor: We definitely need an update. Of course, thanks for having me. [00:36:28] Dan Runcie: All right. Great. [00:36:29] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast. Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Travis Scott is in album mode. Utopia will be his first album since 2018, but a lot has changed since then.


The industry isn’t as hip-hop dominant, hypebeast culture has shifted, and Travis is still navigating things after the 2021 Astroworld Festival tragedy.


How will all this influence Utopia? I broke it all down with friend of the pod, Denisha Kuhlor. Here’s what we covered:


0:43 How hip-hop has changed since Astroworld

8:23 Travis sold a lifestyle to success

9:29 Why Travis attracted category-leading brand sponsors

13:51 Lasting effect of Astroworld Festival tragedy 

19:11 How will the “Ragers” respond to Utopia? 

24:12 Over/under on Utopia’s first-week sales

30:01 Pyramid performance in Egypt

31:09 Did Travis miss out on building out a major independent brand?



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor


This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm

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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: When we look at the caliber of the brands that he was able to pull, I think that was the difference between him being a 10 or 20 million a year artist that we were who we would be praising his work ethic versus this $100 million artist that were like, wow.

[00:00:17] Dan Runcie Intro Audio: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:43] Dan Runcie: All right, we're going to get deep into the world of Utopia. Travis Scott is upon the release of his fourth album, and this one has been long anticipated for several years now. But a lot's changed since the last time that Travis Scott released his album, Astroworld, which came out summer 2018. But there's been two big things that have happened.

One, the pandemic. And then two, the tragedy of the Astroworld concert, and we have seen the heights of Travis Scott in that era, thinking specifically about the Fornite series that he had, we've also seen the lows of it as well, especially given the aftermath of the people that died and all of the injuries and all of the broader conversations around concert safety.

Travis Scott's role in this himself and other things too. And I want to talk about this with you. So we have Denisha Culloran, who's the founder of STAN. You work specifically in artist engagement and have written pieces on many of the superstars. Let's first start with where hip hop is because we're now in 2023, and I feel like we're in a very different spot than we were when Travis Scott released his last album, Astroworld. So what's changed for you? Where were we with hip hop then and music then? And where are we now?

[00:01:59] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think that hip hop is, undergoing a new era, at least from a quantitative or commercial success standpoint, in the last few years and probably in some ways due to the pandemic, I feel like we've seen the emergence of what I like to think of as dance music. I mean, Beyonce released a dance album, Drake, one of the biggest hip hop stars himself released a dance album. Even when you look at the rise of music, non English music, right? Whether that's music coming out of Africa or, you know, what Bad Bunny has done as well. People are, gravitating to music that doesn't necessarily have to do with the lyrics in the way that rap shines.

So I would say to sum it up that rap is having, a bit of a fall from dominance.

[00:02:46] Dan Runcie: And it's interesting with Travis Scott too, because I feel like he benefited from this transition to an era where people aren't necessarily listening for. The lyrics, the people that love Travis Scott were so much more interested into the vibe, this rager mentality, and he was a hip hop rock star in terms of how he built himself.

And I don't know if a song like highest in the room is necessarily 1 that you're trying to hear in a club, or you're trying to hear dancing, but and so do you think that this transition away from lyrics and more divides? Do you think this hurts someone like Travis or helps them?

[00:03:22] Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I like that categorization, hip hop, rock star. I mean, if we were to look at the charts, the one person who has waved the flag for hip hop this year, truly from a commercial standpoint, is Lil Uzi Vert. And I would compare him or categorize him the same way. So when I think about, when I think about that, I say it helps him.

[00:03:44] Dan Runcie: Lil Uzi Vert did sample System of a Down in his most recent album. And he definitely has a few songs that sound like that post grunge early 2000s types of artists like Switchfoot and stuff like that. So there's a bit of that mixed in there. Travis Scott has benefited from that too. He's also benefited from having songs where.

You heard multiple sounds being merged into each other. I'm thinking, of course, like sicko mode where you can break the whole song. It sounds like three parts in one together. But again, that was 2018. We're in a very different time right now for hip hop and its releases. And I say that to say the success that Travis Scott had in 2018 to 2020, because I do feel like in a lot of ways, that was the commercial peak.

Said as much about him as it did about the broader streaming era, as it did about where culture was. So 1st, he himself, he emerges on the scene. He speaks to this audience of hip hop fans that. Really didn't have someone that was reaching them specifically Travis Scott born in the early 90s. So he's still millennial, but he definitely reached more of that older Gen Z audience.

And let's say someone like Drake or Kendrick or J Cole did and he related to that hype beast culture. He did it with how he dropped his music, how he thought about merch collaborations and any of the partnerships that he had. And we'll get into those in a minute, but that was the ethos of what he did.

And especially at that time with the way that Billboard was counting album bundles that really worked to his advantage because he combined his hype beast and his ability to sell things and essentially be a walking Supreme style artists where when he drops Astroworld, he literally has this 24 hour merge operation that is dropping a new product every hour of this.

And that's how that album is able to do nearly 50% of its first week. Sales coming from more coming from these albums that come through, or these album bundles that come through. He still did quite well in streaming, but the combination of those leads to him having, I believe it was 537, 000 units selling in his 1st week.

And usually the people that project these things are usually pretty on course. And I remember the projections leading up to Astroworld, which like Utopia was also pretty hyped album, but people were expecting things may be in the mid to high 200, 000 range. And he more than doubles that.

And you rarely see that much of an artist exceeding the expectations of that perspective. I think a lot of it has to do with people just not expecting him to have dominated things the way that they did. And even though it is 1 of these things where you have to, in some ways, read the fine print to see how those numbers came through.

The average person just sees the top line number. No different than you may see. Oh, this movie grossed a hundred and fifty million dollars. You're not trying to read the fine line to say, okay, well, how many of those tickets were IMAX versus cheap movies where it costs less than ten dollars. So go see matinee, you just want to see what's that top line number and it worked really well to his advantage and because there was still model culture definitely wasn't around in 2018 in that way, but we've only become more fragmented since then. So there was still this opportunity, especially with the growth of streaming and these services to really elevate a star. And I think that worked to his advantage as well. So the timing and everything of that Astroworld release couldn't have worked better for him.

[00:07:20] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I agree. I think he was really disciplined or it just came natural in terms of building a business that exuded a lifestyle. And it was around the time where having this, like, flywheel of products, benefited, of course, not only the product that he was selling or pushing, but also counted towards his streams.

 And I think, you know, in the past, a lot of artists maybe didn't get to show their dominance in that way, and our catalog episode, we talked about Beyonce, and Beyonce's numbers and whether they met expectations or didn't meet expectations in terms of her streaming numbers, or in some ways, how she shows up on the charts.

But when you see what that fandom looks like mobilized in the form of her live shows, one, you know, a few data points in aggregate, especially when it relates to, streaming or listening habits, clearly don't tell the full story about the fandom. and I think that's where Travis Scott was really able to at that time, show us the power of what he was building.

[00:08:25] Dan Runcie: It's good that you mentioned Beyonce too, because that's another example of people just looking at the high level number. People see how many first week sales that Renaissance did, or even the streams that Renaissance has had afterward. There's other artists, whether it's SZA and others that have had albums that have had longer shelf life on streaming versus others, but it's a completely different fan base.

This fan base is older. They're not going to sit in front of a computer and just stream your music all day. They're working, but when it's time to show up. They may fly to Vancouver, they may fly to Europe to go look at your tour and go check out what it is. And I think Travis Scott, similarly, he had a fan base that was very beneficial for him with things that were related to e commerce, especially around drops, especially around releases and that worked to him.

So when we're talking about artists, finding what product market fit looks like, finding what everything has that's available, it worked to his advantage. So if we fast forward a couple months after the release of Astroworld, Sicko Mode becomes a big hit, it ends up charting, and then that brings Astroworld back to the top of the charts.

That February, he performs at the Super Bowl alongside Maroon 5, so then that works to his advantage, and he just continues to have a very strong year. He ends up releasing that documentary and he didn't end up winning a Grammy as we saw the documentary was quite disappointed about that. But then that sets up everything for 2020 and in a year where most musicians struggle because they can't tour and they may have planned to release certain things.

Travis Scott's one of the few that actually did win. There was this Forbes article that came out towards the end of 2020 that looked at all of the partnerships that he had with various companies. And we're talking about his collaborations with Nike, Fortnite, McDonald's PlayStation 5, I believe he even had drops associated with the tenant movie that came out that year.

They expected that he would gross over a 100Million dollars or that the revenue that he would generate from these things would gross over a 100Million dollars and. It said so much about where we were, especially because people were inside. They didn't have anything better to do than just get the latest merch, get the latest drops.

That worked so well to his advantage. And his songs were still popular. I do feel like Astroworld was probably one of the last hip hop albums that felt like it had some legitimate staying power. And then I think that was probably The peak of him, at least what we've seen so far in his career.

[00:10:59] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, no, I completely, I completely agree. he was in many ways on top of the world. I think he was really thoughtful about how he got to that position. in some ways, even, you know, when you look at things like, the fortnight show, he was really a pioneer, and the days to follow when it came to Web3 or embracing the Internet or new models for artists, who was frequently cited and maybe he doesn't even really get the credit he deserves, for that, and, you know, I'd be remiss if I'd say, I think, he's lucky in a way that, his fan base demographics skew, a population that consumers or that brands want to attract, right? So the brands that really saw an appeal in his music, were brands willing to spend, I mean, Video games, Nike, the brands that he was able to attract, some artists and a lot of hip hop artists, especially, even when we did our ice spice episode, female artists, right? They're able to get a lot of, brand attention.

But when we look at the caliber of the brands that he was able to pull, I think that was the difference between him being a 10 or 20 million a year artist that we were who we would be praising his work ethic versus this 100 million. artist that were like, wow.

[00:12:18] Dan Runcie: He literally had the biggest brands in their category, right? It wasn't like he had some subcategory. I feel like the only thing he was missing was a visa or master card type of partnership to be like, or American express or one of those, right? It was always the leader space.

[00:12:33] Denisha Kuhlor: The time is now with that. I mean, with Kendrick's tour, I don't know if we would have all guessed that, his partner would be in tech company. So I think it'd be really interesting for his next tour to see who he aligns himself with.

[00:12:47] Dan Runcie: The interesting thing with Travis though, is that. As I mentioned, I feel like the 2020 was that peak that we had seen, but then by early 2021, this is when we first start hearing about this forthcoming album, Utopia, he announces that he has this, or he posts a screenshot, which is quite cryptic, but he has this movie coming out with a 24.

That seems like it may be titled Utopia. Fans are already anticipating it, and it did feel similar to the Astroworld, but Hype in some ways, because even 2 years before that album came out, even before birds of the trap sing McKnight, he was talking about Astroworld. So we felt like we're back to this era and things seem to be cruising.

He had already had successful Astroworld festivals on the ground, especially that 1st 1 he had after, the Astroworld Album that came out in 2018. I believe he had another one in 2019 was quite successful. Obviously, he didn't have one due to the early part of the pandemic in 2020, but he then comes in 2021 and you could say that things were already starting to shift at this point because fans were already in that anticipation point. Okay, when's it going to come? We thought the album is going to come, but then everything changes after the tragedy of the Astroworld festival that he has, as we talked about in the beginning, many people died.

There was a stampede. And I think there's a few things that we can dig into, but we don't necessarily need to dig into the depths of that in this conversation here. But how do you feel like that event, set the tone for Travis's career and how much it impacted and everything else that we've seen and maybe we'll expect coming forward.

[00:14:28] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So, you know, when I, recently rewatched the documentary, his documentary, Look, Mom, I Can Fly and it kind of highlighted some of the culture, right? Around his shows, how his fans showed up at his shows and the overall like tempo of his performances. while in a lot of ways, I think, it didn't matter if people didn't like it, right? Because the ones that did loved it and were truly embracing that culture. I feel like it showed a new light, and light actually probably is the wrong word, but it cast him, in a way, where I think it was the first Big events in a long time, especially post pandemic or post COVID, in which fans were forced to grapple, with like the predicament of other fans, right?

whether you're Travis Scott fan or not, we all know what it's like to be at a show, hopefully, or a big show. And so I think it's really tricky, his reaction and his response. I mean, he did the follow up interview with Charlemagne, and in some ways laid a bit low, obviously his legal stuff was sorted out and things like that.

I think that it positions him in a way that as fans or casual fans or listeners. Want to really get to know more of him and his ethos the documentary helped a bit with that to understand him better but I think that social relationship or feeling like that one to one relationship is there is going to be stronger than ever, for the success of this album is, I'm sure in that, that events, divided many of his fans, whether it was the event himself or his reaction and follow up to it.

[00:16:25] Dan Runcie: I want to dig into that last point, because this may be a tough question to ask. There obviously was very strong reaction to the tragedy of the event, especially considering the lives lost. There was a lot of discussion around that too. Do you think more of the discussion or change in tone about Travis himself was more from the broader people who may not be a rager themselves?

Or do you feel like the ragers themselves, Actually changed after this event.

[00:16:56] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, that's a great question, definitely tough in a way, but in some ways it's simple. It was from the non ragers, right? Because that in itself, in some ways, being at a show like that in itself was difficult for people to understand. So seeing the results of the show, I think, invited many people to cast their opinions in a way that was easy, especially because something went wrong.

But, it's like for any show or any artist that has a fan base, you really can't explain the momentum of why you're there in the first place. Now, I do think, though, when it comes to, you know, the second option for that question, if there was to be any, maybe, divide or discussion amongst the fan base, it would be around Travis's follow up after, especially given they're all a part of this culture or all a part of this fandom. But in terms of deciding whether to go, and being critical of that in the first place, definitely from non ragers.

[00:18:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's the sentiment that I captured too. I remember his initial response. It didn't necessarily feel like it. Sure, I think there's things that you can say we're left to be desired. I think we think about the broader context of who Travis Scott is in himself. It's this balance between do we feel like the person actually does feel sorrow and disappointment for what happened or do they speak in a way that makes us feel that and I know those are two separate things, but I do think that I believe that Travis does have sorrow for these things. I don't know if he in any interview that he's necessarily had ever had those bullet points or those breakaways. That's like, oh, yeah, when Travis Scott said this 1 thing, you know, that's the thing that, you know, stuck with and not saying that necessarily as a knock that just isn't him. It isn't like how Kendrick Lamar may drop some shit in an interview and you're like, oh, wow, never thought of it that way or even how I think Drake does this as well. Some of that could be a bit of an age thing. I know Travis is now I think he's like 31 and, you know, these guys straight Kendrick and Cole are closer to 40 than they are 30, but it's also a bit of a personality and a dynamic thing too. So I think it's like, just because that it just because a tragedy happened, even though a person may feel bad, I don't know. Even the best P. R. crafted statement doesn't turn them into Michael Eric Dyson in terms of how eloquent they may be with using words and things like that. So that was 1 thing that I thought about with the response

[00:19:45] Denisha Kuhlor: I do think when we think about the potential ramifications or how it might affect this upcoming album, that like, this culture of likeability and cancel culture do play a role. And I feel like that's why the documentary was so fascinating in some ways because For so many of us, we're probably at the casual Travis Scott, fans or listeners.

We definitely, you know, have audio recognition of the songs. at this point we attribute the songs to him. but little did we know or little did the world know the depth and the passion of, his core fans and his stance. And maybe because, you know, this is a thing with the media. So often, the concept of a stan has been profiled as like the teenage girl, right?

The Swifties back when Taylor Swift was coming up, or the One Direction fans, or the Justin Bieber fans that, which is not necessarily Travis fan base, but the similarities in terms of passion. What he means to them, and the music are right there.

[00:20:50] Dan Runcie: And I think that's a good place to transition into what we then expect for Utopia. Do you think that those same fans will show up in the same way that we've seen them show up with Astroworld, show up with these merch drops, show up with these product sales year in year out, especially the way they did from that 2018 to 2020 stretch.

[00:21:10] Denisha Kuhlor: You know, it's what I'm most curious about myself. When we look at four to five years, it'd be easy to say, you know, obviously, that was a big part of people's lives for whatever age or part of their life they were going through, and naturally, they'll at least give him the first look or first right of refusal to do.

So, I'd be remiss though. If I'd say these last 4 or 5 years will really go down in history. And it changed so many people, and truly transformative ways. So I wonder if the conversion in terms of the amount of, like, stands that he'll be able to keep from, the last album to Utopia will be as high as maybe it could have been if the world looked a little different four or four or five years ago.

What I do think, though, is, and we saw this with SZA. It really can stand the test of time, especially if the relationship is strong. Fans are ready, audiences are excited. And they want to show up and give that power in a lot of ways. I wonder what's the difference between a fan base that stays.

I would point to a Taylor Swift fan base, for example, obviously the Swifties versus a fan base that moves on, you know, you think of the J. Cole song, I think when he's 1985 and he talks about like the actual cyclical nature of hip hop and rap, right? From an artist perspective and for the majority of the artists. They don't hang on and they don't convert. So it's going to be really interesting, but my hunch is that he's going to have to pick up a lot of new fans along the way, only because his fans are in such a stage of adolescence or figuring things out, at least his biggest diehard fans, and can very much be in a new place in their lives now.

[00:23:08] Dan Runcie: If the over under on what Travis Scott could do for this album. I'm thinking purely on a first week sales metric here, as you mentioned, Astroworlds did 537. If that's the over under I'm taking the under if the over under is 400. I'm taking the under. And to be honest with you, even if the over under is 300, I'm still taking the under.

And here's why, there's so much that has changed in streaming and music since then. And when Travis Scott released Astroworld, hip hop had such an early mover advantage on streaming that it was in the streaming services benefit to push hip hop and to push the hip hop stars that are out in front. So that same summer that Astroworld comes out, Drake had released his album, Scorpion, maybe like 6, 7 weeks before, and there were a few other ones that were strong on the charts, but there were no Taylor, no Beyonce, or no other, you know, big artists that were there at least releasing from that perspective, but a lot's changed now where I don't think the streaming services necessarily need to rely on hip hop in that same way as heavily because of all the growth that's there.

Morgan Wallen is still doing over 100, units sold per week and we're almost 20 weeks running now. Country artists weren't doing that in 2018. So it's a very different landscape now. So that's one aspect of it. The 2nd aspect of it is this album will be, at least to my knowledge, 1 of the 1st to take advantage of billboard reintroducing album bundle packs.

And that is 1 of the things that Travis benefited from. They took it away for several years. So we saw a lot of hip hop artists take a decline. They'll now bring it back. It's going to be slightly different. However. I think what's changed a bit is that I don't know if hype beast and hype culture is necessarily the same as it as it was in 2018, because I feel like that was the height of when Supreme was doing its best and getting those big, P E deals from Carlisle group.

And all of these companies were just, and you're seeing all these specials and document mini documentaries on what is hype and why do these companies start? And why are all these? Gen Z and young millennials lining up at whatever hour across the street. And in a way that, yeah, that stuff still happens, but it doesn't happen in the same aspect.

And I don't think someone like Travis Scott has much of a monopoly on that culture, the way that he did then. So I think that hurts it a little bit. And I think the 3rd thing with the absence of a song as big as sickle mode, and even if Travis Scott has better songs on this album, the sickle mode, I haven't heard it. I can't speak to that. It's harder for even a single song in hip hop to capture as much mindshare today in 2013, 2023, as Sicko mode did in 2018. And I remember there was some study that. or some analysis, I think the New York Times or 1 of those places put out where they looked at all the streams of Astroworld and an overwhelming majority of them were people streaming Sicko mode.

That's no surprise. That's just the way it is. And you know, it's a power law thing. You need that 1 or 2 hits really to drive things forward, will he pull a few singles that have been loose ones that have done? Well, potentially, Yeah, probably, but we'll see, I think actually, and I know you want to talk about this in a little bit, but Lil Uzi Vert's pink tape could probably be a helpful proxy here.

So he released a album in, 2020, and I think it did just under 300, 000, units, and then he released another album a couple of weeks ago, the pink tape, and then that did around one 67. So almost a 50% drop. I mean, he still did number one, but there was a pretty sizable drop. I think Lil Uzi Vert is a different, you know, case than Travis Scott, but this is kind of what we've seen even artists like Drake and others. It's tough to reach those numbers that they did at the height of streaming when they were doing strong numbers and everything else. So I think that if you want to even say someone like J Cole is a cop, I think that his last album was still under 300, 000 or so. So I'd be surprised if Travis Scott got to that level.

And the 1 thing I'll say, 2, is I know you mentioned, you know, SZA and just how that fan base stays. We did have some hard numbers to be able to show that just seeing how scissors control stayed on the charts for the past 5 years. I don't yeah, I don't see Astro world on the charts in that same type of way.

So if that indicates anything from a staying power perspective, I don't know, but that's where I sit with it.

[00:27:36] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, no, I'm aligned. I think we're going to see somewhere between 200 K to 300K optimistically. I think that's a great, outcome. I also think the point you made about, hype culture. Is really important, right? we're now in an era where people are covering, the outfits on secession, right?

Where people are leaning towards old money or, you know, that culture. it's a lot different. you've seen, you know, even when you look at major houses like LVMH or conglomerates, the efforts and the investment that they've had to put just to stay on top of consumers minds and gain that attention share.

I think while bundles are exciting and while it's super exciting that bundles are back and will be counted. It really is going to take a lot for it to garner fans attention. Even with Beyonce, I think maybe, I mean, what she did was really interesting with the mystery boxes, but it'll need to have some type of true pull or gravitas beyond really just the product itself, because consumers have built affinity to a lot more brands, a lot more rising brands, a lot more, influencers even, to justify potentially just that much.

[00:28:58] Dan Runcie: What do you make of the Pyramids performance that's upcoming for Travis Scott?

[00:29:03] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So the first thing that comes to mind is Russ and Russ's tweet saying that he, you know, he did it first and his fans reminded everyone, what I will say is. I do think it's a testament to his artistry, and his ability to truly want to or have this desire to maybe think outside the box and try new things.

As someone who, goes back and forth between, I guess, Africa and, the States, I think those types of things are always tricky, in terms of going to any place, right? And maybe in some ways wanting to encompass it as part of your art, while not always fully immersing yourself in the location.

 So I know he's, an artist and obviously want to respect his artistic will. But when it comes down to how it might be more broadly perceived outside the United States. I'm really curious to actually see the sentiment. What are your thoughts there?

[00:30:05] Dan Runcie: That's a good point. And something that isn't necessarily talked about a lot, right? A lot of the Westerners may see that and be like, oh, dope. Cool. Did it in one of the seven wonders of the world, right? But yeah, what do Egyptians feel about that? What do people from the Middle East feel about that? Is this a stunt to capture attention?

And in many ways, we know that it is an opportunity to capture attention. Just the statement itself. Oh, I'm doing this. You want to make it big. You do want to make it big. It definitely captured my attention. I'm not going to act like I'm above it, right? Oh, this could be interesting to see, but I think you bring up a very good point about it.

And is there some type of tie in or some type of relationship there? We'll see, I don't know, but I think that's a good thing to think about there. The 1 question I do want to ask you before we wrap things up here is. We talk a lot. Oh, you and I've talked a lot about artists, market fit, creator, market fit, and just how they find products and things that work well for them.

And I look at people like Mr. Beast and he's someone who they've launched products. Off of his likeness and off of his brand, some of those products haven't worked as well. We recently heard that beast burgers had shut down and there's also been several P. E. and venture capital firms that have tried to spin up investment company or investment firms that are specifically focused on either, A, trying to find the next Mr. Beast or be trying to fund projects or businesses that are based off of the likeness of the influence that these creators do have. Travis Scott has a lot of similarities, especially we think about the influence from an e commerce perspective. I don't know if the timing was now, maybe the time it could have been a few years ago.

But do you think there was an opportunity for him to have launched a more traditional business off of Cactus Jack, the same way that we see he's so synonymous with drop culture and he's so synonymous with those things. Was there an opportunity to do something like that?

[00:32:06] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think absolutely, you know, nowadays it's really interesting in terms of some of the biggest brands have, skewed beyond the celebrity. People had a lot to say about Skims, right? But we can't deny, that it's a great business and people really like the product. Kim Kardashian or not, they like the product. I think during that period when he was on top of the world, that was a really interesting time, especially during COVID when he wasn't, traveling as much or touring as much, to be able to bring something to market that would really excite fans and fans and consumers, it almost feels like that opportunities past now, because that like height of fandom is not the same. But I also think that a lot of artists don't want to, and maybe that is very much okay, when I watched the documentary, I kept reflecting back on. The ownership that he gravitated to taking when it came to the control of his shows.

I mean, getting in the weeds about his lights, his sound, his pyrotechnics, to a level that almost reminded me of Beyonce. In the sense of how much he wanted to direct and produce the show in real time and how passionate he was about that. So while, the answer is yes, right?

And if I was talking to a manager, an agent, they'd be like, hell yeah. I also think it's okay to maybe recognize that he had, like we said, some of the biggest brands in the world, cutting him really, really great checks that required him to be hands on, Yes, but also gave him a certain level of ability to turn off his laptop for the day or walk away while being able to tap into the supply chains and resources and expertise that they had at their disposal.

So, while yes, in some ways he's done a great job at becoming really liquid off just his likeness. , and maybe he's not necessarily from an artist market fit standpoint, the archetype of artists that would have done it long enough for it to be lucrative or successful in comparison to his other ventures.

[00:34:23] Dan Runcie: Great comparison on Beyonce. We've clearly seen some of the e commerce and brand struggles that some of her products have had recently, but people will show up for the concert people would show up for the event and you talking about how particular and focused Travis is on the ownership of the performance and the stage. It makes me think of that line in antidote where he's like kicking the camera man off of my stage. Cause I don't like, I always capture my angles, which was literally from something that he did at a national concert. So I think that's a good point there. And of course, underlying, let's say he launched something either end of 2019 and, or beginning of 2020, like right when things were taken off. It's one thing for the Travis Scott brand itself to have taken a hit after the Astroworld tragedy. I could even imagine where that company would be today. And especially just given where anything that we just talked about, how, you know, hype beast culture and things like that just aren't where they are right now.

So we'll see, I say all that to say, I know that you shared a bunch of caveats in this conversation. I'm still going to listen to the album. I'm still intrigued. I do want this person to succeed. I very much like Travis Scott, but I also realized that for the average artist having a four to five year peak run is much more common, especially for someone that reaches those levels. And then even someone having a true generational career like Drake or Jay Z is few and far between. So even if it doesn't hit the same numbers, I don't think it's necessarily a knock. It's more so reality of the business.

[00:35:51] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think, the Drake's JC's, even the J Cole's are only going to become rare and rare as attention gets harder, but a strong 5 year, strong 5 to 7 year career that makes truly like, good income that an artist can then use to divest or maybe even sell their catalog, is like the 1% nowadays, for the industry. I agree.

[00:36:13] Dan Runcie: Indeed. Well, Denisha, this was fun. Thanks again for coming on. And who knows, maybe we'll have to check in after Utopia at some point to see what the post Travis Scott return looks like. Thanks again for coming

[00:36:25] Denisha Kuhlor: We definitely need an update. Of course, thanks for having me.

[00:36:28] Dan Runcie: All right. Great.

[00:36:29] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast.

Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2359 no Motown Records: The Hit Factory That Changed Music Forever https://www.trapital.com/podcast Few record labels have left their stamp on the industry quite like Motown.  This assembly line churned out hit song after hit song in the ‘60s and early ‘70s. With a who’s-who roster — Marin Gaye, The Jackson 5, Diana Ross, and Stevie Wonder, among others — The Hitsville U.S.A. sign Gordy put on Motown’s front door became warranted.  This episode is the story of Motown Records — it’s formula for success, what led to its decline, and where it stands today under Universal. I’m joined by friend of the pod, Zack O’Malley Greenburg. Here’s what we covered in this episode: 0:38 Berry Gordy’s origin story 8:08 Motown museum in Detroit 9:20 Cultivating a culture of creativity 13:05 Shifting the sound of Black music 20:12 Motown’s knack for discovering talent  34:29 The beginning of the decline 36:12 80’s decade of transition 39:48 Post-Gordy struggles 45:51 Motown’s uncertainty today 53:59 Best signing? 55:16 Best business move? 568:45 Dark horse move? 1:01:58 Biggest missed opportunity? 1:07:13 Motown big-screen picture 1:09:22 Berry Gordy won big 1:10:41 Who lost the most? 1:14:56 Zack’s Jay Z index Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Zack Greenburg: Berry Gordy created with Motown and sort of the Motown genre, which I think really like more than any label has become synonymous beyond just sort of like the name of label itself, you say Motown music, and a testament to the sound that he created, [00:00:13] Dan Runcie Audio Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:38] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is a deep dive into the one and only legendary Motown records. At its peak, Motown was the most successful black business in the country. It peaked at 30 million dollars of revenue in 1968 and Barry Gordy and his team assembled a sound. a unique genre of music that produced hit after hit after hit and Hitsville USA lived up to its promise. So in this episode, we take you through the origins of how Motown came to be. What are some of the business principles and strategies that worked in its favor? And then what are some of the challenges that Motown faced too? It's now been 50 years since the peak of Motown. And this record label has had plenty of ups and downs and plenty of journeys that we went deep on in this episode. And I'm joined by Zach Greenburg He is a biographer of Jay Z and several others, and he also wrote about Michael Jackson. And in that he talked about Michael Jackson's time with Motown, especially in the Jackson 5. So we had a lot of fun in this one. So come take a trip down memory lane with us. Here's our episode on Motown. [00:01:42] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're back with another case study style episode, and we're going deep into Hitsville, USA. Motown, baby. Let's do this, Zack, I'm excited for this one. [00:01:53] Zack Greenburg: Thanks for having me as always. [00:01:55] Dan Runcie: Berry Gordy is so fascinating because At one point, this was the most successful black business. They're the most successful black entrepreneur in the country invented a genre. And it's so hard to be able to do that. And that legacy still lives on today. We know so many record labels that have taken inspiration from what Berry Gordy built with Motown records, but let's start from the beginning. What inspired Berry Gordy to even want to get involved with music in the first place? [00:02:23] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. So, you know, Berry Gordy, and his family were in the Detroit area, you know, a bunch of serial entrepreneurs, get a record shop early on, but he was actually like semi professional boxer coming up. And, think one thing led to another and you just kind of saw that, you know, there was a market that was not being served in music. you know, certainly like the business was concentrated, on the coast and particularly in New York at that time, you know, eventually more in LA, but. you know, there was some stuff going on in Chicago. there was some regional acts, regional labels, things like that. But, you know, I think he just basically saw an opportunity, to start something. And, you know, sort of in the way that if you look at, Richard Branson or Puffy or, you know, what are those types of entrepreneurs? It's almost It doesn't really matter what they get into. They find a way to make it work. and they're just always on the lookout for a new sector. That's, kind of, you know, right for some creative destruction, know, and some refreshing or some freshening, some revising, I don't know, whatever you would call it. And, you know, in the case of Berry Gordy. Kind of amazingly, when you think about music over the past half century, he looked around and he thought, well, this is actually, this is a sector that is very promising amongst all the sectors that I could possibly get into. So, that's how Motown came to pass. [00:03:36] Dan Runcie: That point about whether it's Diddy, Branson, Gordy, and I think a lot of the tech CEOs fall in this category as well. You're going to put them in any generation. And I do think that these people would have found a way to make things work. And that's the same point you're making, right? He saw an opportunity to music, but let's say he came 30 years later. It could have been another aspect. Let's say he came today, probably could have been trying to do something in AI or even figure it out, how to make AI, be transformative with his music. And I think a lot of his work, whether you think about how he built derivative work or how he had this process with artists that we'll get into so much of it taps into, okay, here's an opportunity to optimize things. Here's how we can make things work. And music just happened to be the format. He chose it. [00:04:21] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And even, you know, when you think about it, he got started sort of mid century 30 years later, he was looking into other things, getting involved in film and TV. And You know, moving the business out West, but, you know, we'll get there eventually, but, he certainly did, you know, find other ways to extend the Motown brand as time went on. [00:04:37] Dan Runcie: So he starts off, he has this record business and things go okay with that. specifically talking about the store. And that was a lot of it was connected a bit more from the family perspective, but then he ends up getting the job at Ford specifically working with that Lincoln mercury plant. And that's when he was only there for 2 years, but he then sees how the process works and the whole concept of Ford is, which is that assembly line process that Henry Ford has been famous for. He sees that and then he taps back into his opportunities with music and he's like, okay. Okay, there's an opportunity to do the same with music. So he sees this assembly line, essentially have all these parts go through the inputs. And then the output, you get this car, he wanted to be able to pull some kid off the street, bring them into the Motown and bring them into this record label facility. And then outcomes a star. And he felt like he had the ability to be able to create that type of dynamic. And it took some time to get there, but that's essentially what he did. And a lot of the creations of what we saw from Hitsville USA was that exactly. [00:05:48] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And, he'll tell you that, I've interviewed him a couple of times. Once for Forbes, once for my book, Michael Jackson Inc, where he talked a lot about that. And, you know, he really has a formula, for making a hit song. And, you know, it's sort of like the song has to have a clear beginning, middle at an end. The chorus has to have a sort of grand arc that summarizes the song every time it happens. And then there's a sort of like grand finale bridge ending thing that, brings it all together, always at the end you hear the artist shout out the song's name almost, you know, invariably one last time and you know, that's like pure marketing, right? And you think about it in those days, this great songs on, you're hearing it, but like, you know, maybe you're in the car, it's on the radio, maybe you're artist and a record player. It's not popping up on your phone. So you know what it's called when you hear Michael Jackson shout out, I want you back at the end and I want you back. what you're going to go out and buy, you know what, you're going to call in, you know, to the radio station and ask them to play. So, it's very calculated, it really works and it's proven and, you know, if it sort of seems like, gosh. You know, this is like a cliche. This is obvious. I think part of it is because he helped create this cliche, obvious thing, right? I mean, things become cliche or obvious because they're smart or necessary most of the time. So, you know, at some point it was novel and, you know, very corny, I think was part of, making that whole song structure novel. And, you know, really. When you look at how he executed it, you know, I think a modern day analog, we talked about this, you know, before on our bad boy episode, but so, you know, his role was very much like the Puffy role, or at least the early Puffy role in production. So, you know, he had a hand in songwriting and production, but, you know, mostly he figured out who he wanted to have producing his labels, songs and sort of who he wanted to be in charge of authoring that certain type of sound. So for Berry Gordy, it was a handful of, producers called the corporation, just like Puffy had the Hitmen. And, you know, then he would kind of come in and do his own little thing on top when he thought it was necessary. But, you know, in a way it kind of adds that whole assembly line aspect, right? Where, you know, that there's going to be a certain level of quality, there's going to be like a distinctive sound, whether it's a bad boy or Motown, or, you know, even going back to, you know, what a Ford car was, you know, in those days you had kind of an ideology to get. And I think that's one of the things that really set Motown apart. [00:08:08] Dan Runcie: Exactly. And I think with that too, you have him going through the process of starting this. So this record label started with an 800 with 800. That's what he had initially. And he uses that to then start Hitsville USA. So that's the location on Grand Ave in Detroit. Have you been to this museum by the way? [00:08:30] Zack Greenburg: I did. We did a special event there. One time we had the Forbes 30 under 30, Summit and we did this like, special, like one off private interview where I went there with Quavo and we sat in Motown studios, you know, where Michael Jackson and all them had recorded. and we did a little like video discussion on the state of the music business, I think it's floating around the internet somewhere, but, it's a really cool building. I mean, I think what strikes. Me the most, you know, like the first time I went in is like the fact that just a house. I mean, it really just looks like a house. the rooms are sort of like room size, you know, it's not some sprawling like, you know, I don't know, institutional type place like a lot of modern, recording studios, you know, it's just a converted house but you know, you kind of walk through each room and it's museum and everything now, so you can kind of get a feel for it. It's very different from the modern day glitz and glamour of the record business for sure. [00:09:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah, been there twice. it was really cool because just like you said, you feel like you're actually in a home and that's the vibe that the studio gives you. And I felt like the people that were the tour guides as well, they clearly knew their history in a way where it should sound obvious, but that could obviously be hit or miss with museum sometimes. So I felt like that piece of it was good. And it ties back to a few things that tap into the culture that it is. Gordy wanted to create that. I think make it work. He lived upstairs. Studio is downstairs. So he has everything there and he wanted to make this somewhere that creativity could spawn at any particular moment. So he wanted to create a 24/7. Set up where he had made sure the vending machines were always stocked. So people could stay there year, you know, day in day out. If creativity comes to you at 3 p. m. or 3 a. m. you can go right there and do what you have to do. And you could keep things moving there internally. And this is one of the things that I do think worked really well for them because. Although I think the music industry has gotten away from this, there was this era where the culture and the vibe that you could create from a label and all that continuity really helped things. So when you saw how deliberate he was from an assembly line perspective was essentially keeping his product in place and keeping all the materials in place so that it can produce outputs at any given moments to just increase the likelihood that you could have hits coming time and time again. [00:10:49] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I mean, he certainly spoke a lot about, quality control, which is, it's kind of funny, you know, given the eventual QC relationship, but, you know, I think that's a really big part of it. And when you're that hands on and, you know, in some cases you could say micromanaging, but it does enable you to really have a unified. We can also get into this, fact that at some point it can become a bit of a creative constraint for artists as they mature. [00:11:14] Dan Runcie: Right, because with quality control, there was someone on the team that listened to everything that came through Motown and they essentially picked the best. They brought it to this weekly meeting and most of the Motown artists weren't writing or producing their materials necessarily, but they were going in and you had all these artists that would essentially sing. The same exact song and then they would pick the best version that came out of that to then release the song. Sometimes they had multiple artists that would end up releasing a version. And we saw different versions of this where you had both Diana Ross and Marvin Gaye have their versions of Ain't No Mountain high enough. Granted it was a few years later in different songs, but a lot of that stems from that quality control aspect. And there's this one quote that, was here from One of the books that was written about, Berry Gordy and Motown, where they talked about quality control and they said, quote, the artists were a means to an end in a way, end quote. And that's exactly what we're talking about how the downside is that it could limit creativity, but the upside is that it gives you the opportunity to get the best polished diamond from all of the creations that come from this studio. [00:12:24] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And man, there were quite a few, right? I mean, when you look through, I mean, the heydays, Smokey Robinson, the Miracles, Diana Ross, the Supremes, Four Tops, Marvin Gaye, coming into, you know, Michael Jackson, the Jackson 5, you know, think we've talked about in our previous discussions about hip hop, you know, like sort of the staying power, of different labels and, you know, and how you can kind of keep identifying talent and keep it coming. I mean, that's quite a breadth You know, of like musical accomplishment that they've got, that you could say that Berry Gordy identified over the years. So, you know, I would really, obviously I'd put him up against any other, identify any A& R, any, you know, music mogul in the history of the business, for sure. [00:13:05] Dan Runcie: I agree. And I think the other thing that's interesting too, is This taps back into the whole process and quality management things. Berry Gordy really wanted to help shift the sound and direction of this label because at the time, black music and music that was made by black artists was quite segmented where people didn't feel like it could reach beyond a certain audience. And he experienced some of this himself. One of the reasons that his record stores closed was because he was focused primarily on jazz music. At the time, even Black folks weren't really into jazz at that particular moment. So he just didn't have the market to be able to continue this. So I think that helps Chase Motower. He says, okay, I want the music that's able to be listened to by everyone. I want Black people to ride with it. I want white people. I want anyone in America to be able to ride with the same way that people would listen to the Beach Boys. And he had a few more interesting things that were part of this process. One, everyone had an etiquette coach. And these are things that we're teaching them, essentially, how you have black people essentially speak to white people. Granted, I think there's a lot of that that is problematic. That probably wouldn't fly into the same ways today, just given some of the language there. but then additionally, he also had white salesmen that were essentially the ones that were promoting the records in different areas, going to different radio stations. And he would go as far to insert in records that he's promoting to not even show the artist on the cover because he wanted the record to reach. And he didn't want people to necessarily immediately see or relate it to a black artist, which I thought was interesting, but lined up with a lot of these things. So, even though some of the choices clearly were problematic, it probably wouldn't fly at the same way today. That's how he was about process and wanting to essentially be able to sell this talent anywhere in the country. [00:15:01] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and it's especially remarkable when you sort think of the cultural context of, you know, of when this is all happening in the 60s. You know, I mean, this is a time of great polarization and social change and, you know, really like turmoil, in a lot of ways, disunity, but, what Berry Gordy created with Motown and sort of the Motown genre, which I think really like more than any label has become synonymous like a genre, you know, beyond just sort of like the name of label itself, you say Motown music, and you're talking about like a genre, as much as you're talking about a label, the fact that you'd be able to sort of create that it like in the 60s, even the late 60s, when things were really why we think we're polarized now. I mean, the late sixties, oh my gosh. Like what a testament to the sort of the sound that he created, which, you know, just like bridged all these divides and, you know, you obviously still go to any wedding, black, white, you know, at anything. And, you're gonna hear Motown all over the place. So I think that kind of goes back to what he created, you know, even at the time. being so accessible to so many different audiences and, you know, one of the things he told me, when I interviewed him, he said that, Martin Luther King came to see him, in Detroit, at the peak of the civil rights movement. And apparently, according to Gary Gordy, MLK said, he said, what I'm trying to do politically and intellectually, you're doing with your music. I love the feeling people get when they hear your music. And so maybe we can make a deal. And they made a deal to actually put out some of MLK's greatest speeches. They put out three albums on Motown and Gordy kind of summed it up by saying, if you do the right thing will come to you. So I thought that was such a cool. Little nugget that people don't necessarily realize. and, you know, I think people don't, think of Berry Gordy as like avant garde, you know, civil rights activist or anything, but, he kind of approached it in his own way, which was to make this music that could, you know, that could really bring people together. They could also get black culture, you know, into the mainstream us culture, at the same time. And, you know, I mean, we saw that, you know, decades later with hip hop, but. Berry Gordy, you know, he made that blueprint, you know, very, very, very early on. [00:17:03] Dan Runcie: It's a great story because I think it highlights the complexity and that people just aren't in these corners. And as you mentioned, Berry Gordy wasn't known for his civil rights activism. In many ways, people would often point to things that he may have shied away from, where I remember, especially in the 70s when you started to hear a bit more of a pacifist and things like that, there was a push and people wanted Motown to lead more into this and he necessarily wasn't as eager at the time and I remember even Marvin Gaye's What's Going On, one of the biggest records that was ever made. There was tension leading up to that because Gordy was like, wait, what is this? you want to do this? Like, what are we doing here? And then it eventually gets made. And then you see how I feel like every time that one of these publications has one of the greatest songs ever made, I'm sure it's come up on number one, or at least on several, one of these. So you see that, and you've seen other areas where he clearly has leaned into this, but I do think that his. Place in his role at that time, often highlighted some of that ongoing tension that we've seen from black leaders over the years about people want progress, but what's the best way to agree with this? And you date back to some of the more public debates between folks like Booker T. Washington and W. E. B. Dubois about what is the best way for black progress and group economics and things like that. And I feel like Berry Gordy clearly was on a Particular side of that, that not everyone may have agreed with, but he clearly still wanted to be able to help progress things in a particular way. So he's a very fascinating figure as we look at this progression, especially in the 20th century. [00:18:42] Zack Greenburg: Well, that's right. And, you know, I think there's a reason you see him put out MLK speeches. I don't, think he put up Malcolm X's speeches, you know, but that was just sort of his approach, right? He was more Martin than Malcolm. And, you know, obviously you could speak to the merits of either method, but, Berry Gordon definitely, had his preference there. [00:18:59] Dan Runcie: The other thing that I want to talk about, you mentioned it earlier, but the talent and the breadth of talent that was in this place is such a constraint and such a valuable time. It's one of those things where just imagine walking through on a, some day in, let's say 1964, you're just walking through Motown and all of the names that you could just see there making music on a Wednesday afternoon. It's crazy to think of the names and also how he found folks because. Look at Smokey Robinson and Smokey Robinson, the miracles essentially end up releasing shop around, which I do think ends up becoming the first true hit that, or the first, hit single that comes from Motown. He found that he found Smokey on a street corner performing almost, and in many ways, it feels similar to. What we see decades later with Sylvia Robinson driving around the New Jersey tri state area, finding hip hop artists for Sugar Hill Gang. This is how these early entrepreneurs did it. They were the talent development. They saw things and granted it was a much less crowded market. So the people that were pushing music onto folks had a little bit easier time breaking through, but it was still tough, especially at the time. And he was able to make it work in that way, which was, cool. [00:20:13] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, he actually did. And, you know, of course, like the one group that we haven't talked about too much yet is Jackson and sort of the way that, different groups were signed in those days, you know, they're all the stories about, well, you hear, you see somebody busking and you sign them and this and that. And, sort of some of the stories, though, if you talk to a lot of different people, you get, you talk to 3 people, you get 3 different stories. Right? So, I think for my book on MJ, I talked to. His dad, I talked to Berry Gordy and I talked to the guy who signed them to this little record company called Steel Town in Gary, Indiana. And they all had three different versions of, you know, how it went down, right? And so, there's that old saying, basically that the winners get to write history and, you know, Berry Gordy won. So, you know, whether his version is a hundred percent, accurate or not, that's kind of the version that, you know, we tend to hear I think his version is usually correct, but there's definitely some, you know, embellishment or some showmanship from time to time. So, you know, I think, for example, with the Jackson 5, Berry Gordy decided to put out, I think it was their first album as Diana Ross presents the Jackson 5 and, you know, she had this little thing where she's like, I discovered this group from Gary, Indiana and like blah, blah, blah, and that wasn't really how it happened at all. And it was really, you know, depending on who you ask, but I think what happened is Suzanne DePasse, who was one of Berry Gordy's lieutenants, had discovered them, and I think it was, there's another band who heard them, like sent them along to Suzanne DePasse that like, she kind of did the legwork for Berry Gordy. And it was like many times, many. Kind of connections later that Diana Ross, you know, became connected, to the group. but, you know, it's such a better story, right? Like Diana Ross has found these kids from, from the Midwest and, you know, bringing them out, onto Motown. So. I always think that's, kind of funny how, the stories end up getting presented and, you know, when you hear it from everybody else involved, I mean, and Diana Ross, of course, did become, really instrumental and especially Michael's life, as time went on, moved to LA and I think she, he actually lived with her for a little while while they were, you know, making the move and all this stuff, but, you know, it, didn't exactly start out that way. [00:22:18] Dan Runcie: Right. And the Jackson 5 is interesting because they, in many ways were the last group that came through in the heyday of Motown because the heyday we're really talking about is that 50 to 60s run that we've been talking about with a lot of the groups and the artists that we mentioned, especially young Marvin Gaye, young Stevie Wonder, Diana Ross and the Supremes. And then Jackson 5 comes along. But they come along towards the end of the decade. And just for some context setting, in 1968, Motown is doing 30 million in revenue. And they at one point had a 65% hit rate on the songs that they released in terms of actually being able to chart. So the highs were quite high and they were, killing it. The thing is, though, in the early 70s, this is where things start to shift a little bit, because at this point, Berry has his eyes set much bigger, and he wants to move beyond things in Detroit, because of course he was in the Hitsville, U.S.A. house, solely, after the riots that happened and there was some damage there, they ended up expanding things closer. they ended up expanding further in Detroit to just get a bigger size studio there as well. But then, he eventually wants to go to Hollywood so that he could get more into film. He wants to get into production for plays. He wants to bring these artists on the big screen. And it makes sense. We see why this is a huge medium. You saw how much, popular this talent is. And if you can get people to see them and buy into this, visual image that he's clearly curated, no different than we saw someone like Diddy decades later curating things, he wanted to do that. And I think that in many ways, this was one of those big challenges that any leader can have. Do you stay with the thing that's working really well? Or do you try to expand? And when you do expand, how do you find out? How do you make sure that you have the best talent around you? How do you make sure that you're well equipped? And I think that bowtie really started to strain because as things started to grow for the label, a lot of the artists started to feel like they were getting neglected because of these broader ambitions. And that in many ways, now we're dating 50 plus years ago to like 1972 timeframe. That's when a lot of ways was the beginning of the end, at least in terms of the Motown that a lot of people grew up with and knew. [00:24:41] Zack Greenburg: I think so for sure. And, you know, I think as an entrepreneur, you have to seek the next thing, right? I mean, you don't want to stagnate and you kind of have to take the risk and go for the next big thing and maybe you succeed and maybe you don't, and I think that's at least the way we've been conditioned to think. On the other hand, there could be an argument for like, we don't need to have this growth at all costs mindset as a society, you know, what's wrong with having a really awesome business that's just like constantly, you know, successful has happy employees, you know, that kind of thing. But, I guess that's, you know, this is, you know, Trapital not, you know, Trapsocialism, I dunno, we're talking within a certain realm of, you know, of economic, styles and systems. So that's what's gotta happen. And that's what Berry Gordy decided to do, you know, by moving everything to LA but we talked, a while ago about John McClain, and his role in kind of in, in the past few decades as an executive. He's somebody who rarely talks, but somebody interviewed him at some point. He said that he thought that moving to LA was, kind of the beginning of the end for Motown, because it, kind of changed Motown from being a trendsetter to being a trend follower. And, I think I agree with that. And, you know, that's not to say that there wasn't additional success, especially, you know, beyond the recorded music business that occurred. And that moving to LA kind of, you know, like supercharged some of that, but yeah, you know, I mean, I think when Motown was in the Motor City, in its namesake place, like, You know, it was sort of like, I don't say the only game in town cause there were other labels, but I think it was sort of, the main game in town and, being in a place that, you know, wasn't sort of the epicenter of the music business allowed it to have kind of its own unique style and not sort of be influenced as much by what else was going on. And, you know, don't forget in those days, it wasn't like everything was, you know, it wasn't like we were all tuning into the same social media channels. you know, we weren't even like really tuned into cable TV or anything like that, you know, there wasn't the same kind of like national culture that there is today that, you know, where trends just kind of like fly across in a second. And things did kind of take time to move from one place to the other. throughout the country. So, you know, there was like a certain regionalism to it that I think set Motown apart and, you know, maybe you lose a little bit, you know, once you're out in LA, but, you know, certainly around that time, you really start to see some of the artists who wanted more creative freedom, leaving, you know, some others pushing back, you know, I think even within, a few years of moving to LA, the Jackson 5, we're kind of, having some issues with Motown and in terms of, you know, can we make some of our own types of music? You know, do we really have to stick to quite the assembly line? So, yeah, I do think it was a mixed bag for Berry Gordy to head west. [00:27:20] Dan Runcie: And this is where things really started to struggle because a lot of what worked for Berry Gordy was so perfect for. The Hitsville USA West Grand Ave mentality of building everything there and not to say that he was only an early stage founder that couldn't necessarily progress. But I think a lot of the processes he had were more fit for that era. So naturally, you see the growing success of the Jackson 5 and Michael is no longer 9 years old. He is at this point now a full on teenager, but unfortunately, it just didn't quite. Progress in a few things, as you mentioned, you wanted more, they wanted more creative control. They also wanted to have a bit more ownership. There were disputes about royalties. And I remember reading something that said that the Jackson 5 had calculated how much they got. And it was only a 2.3% stake of how much revenue was either coming through or would be coming through in the future. And they see this and they're like, okay, well how can we see our opportunity to get more of that? So then they leave for Epic. And then you also saw a handful of artists at this point were already on their ways out and things were definitely starting to look a little bit more bleak because by the time you get to the end of the seventies, the beginning of 1980s, The music industry was already, granted things are cyclical, but they were starting to sour a bit on black music. This was the end of disco and people wanted nothing to do with that genre. And even though Motown wasn't disco necessarily, there was vibes of the types of artists they were trying to naturally capture in the 70s. So then that had all of black music taking a hit in a lot of ways and there were groups like the barge and others that I think they tried to make work. Obviously, I think Stevie Wonder was a mainstay during all this and that worked out really well for them, but he was really just 1 mainstay. You did have Marvin Gaye, but again, still, it just wasn't necessarily. The same, and I think that they definitely started to struggle even more at that particular moment. And even as early as the 80s, you start to see more of that narrative that honestly, you still hear today about recapturing that Motown magic or recapturing that Motown journey. People have been saying this now for 40 years. [00:29:40] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And I think one thing that people forget is that even though the Jackson 5 moved on to Epic, you know, and that's where MJ ended up, you know, Epic and CBS, and, that's where MJ ended up launching a solo career, people forget that Jermaine actually stayed at Motown initially.  He had married Berry Gordy's daughter and, you know, they had this whole wedding with like, you know, 150 white doves were released and, you know, they had this, you know, kind of fairytale situation. And apparently, Berry said to Jermaine, like, Hey, you can go with your brothers and stay with me, whatever you want. And, you know, knowing Berry, I think he maybe didn't put it that delicately or, you know, that was kind of a huge break from Motown because you know, he had really taken the Jackson 5 under his wing. They used to have, Gordy versus Jackson family, baseball games. Michael Jackson would play catcher. It was very So, you know, I think Tito was like the big power hitter, is what I heard. but yeah, for, you know, I mean, these were two families that were really intricately linked. And I think ultimately it kind of came down to, you know, there was some creative control issues, but, you know, Joe Jackson was, pretty controlling, Berry Gordy was pretty controlling and at some point, you know, it just, I think it became impossible for them to coexist. And so, Joe kind of guided them over to Epic to get that big deal, but, you know, Jermaine. It wasn't obvious that Michael was going to be, you know, by far the superstar of all the Jacksons. And, you know, Jermaine did seem at the time to be like the one who had the most promising solo career, or at least it was, you know, pretty close. And, you know, he never really found his niche is a solo act and eventually it would go on to get back every night with his brothers and go on tours and that sort of thing. [00:31:22] Dan Runcie: I think that's a good distinction because people will often point to and think about what are the big nine and then he drops off the wall. This isn't what happened. There's a pretty big difference between those few years. No difference than anyone where naturally there's a difference between a 15 year, but there were others that experienced. So many of the artists that ended up leaving at that particular year old artist and a 19 year old artist. You're a completely different person at that point. And that's exactly what we ended up seeing with Michael. So missed opportunity for sure missed opportunities that Motown had, we'll get to miss opportunities in a minute, but you often hear people talk about them not being able to keep Michael, but to your point, the Jackson 5 leaving Motown in 1975, 76, isn't the same as. Them leaving in 1970 time ended up having greater, success once they were able to have a bit of freedom after leaving Motown, which was a bit unfortunate because obviously, I think it would have been great to see them continue that success under Berry Gordy's umbrella and continue to see them grow. But not everyone is going to be Stevie Wonder. Not everyone is there to say, Hey, I'm with you until the end. And I'm going to be riding with you during this entire journey. It just doesn't work that way. People have careers. No different. You see them today where people see a bigger opportunity and the grass is greener. They want to take advantage of that, especially if they don't feel like they are being put in the best position to thrive. So in the 80s, Motown is now officially in its transition recovery mode, trying to recapture what was there and we see a few things happen. So they start leading in on debarge. And a lot of people, DeBarge did have a pretty big hit with Rhythm of the Night, but I do think that they tried to make the DeBarge family replicate some of this Jackson family, where you had El DeBarge, and you had all of these others, but it just didn't quite click, at least in a mainstream way to that perspective, but then you did have Lionel Richie, who did end up having a pretty big career, especially with everything he had done since the, Commodores and, but then you also had Berry Gordy's son that they were also trying to work into the mix, who performed under the name Rockwell, who had had that song, somebody's watching me that Michael had sung the hook on. So you had a few things there, but just didn't exactly click because again, it's stuck in two models. Berry wanted to continue to have complete control over it. And the artists just didn't want that anymore. I think that worked when you were literally giving artists. No giving artists in a region of the country like Detroit a platform and opportunity, but they had no other options. But now they had leverage. Now they could go talk to mca Now they could go talk to CBS Epic and some of these other labels. So Berry's mentality just didn't work as much. And then by 1988 is when we see him transition on from the label, at least as the CEO level. And then we start to see the new blood come in to run the record label. [00:34:30] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, I think it is important to note that, you know, although you could characterize the 80s as sort of like musical decline era for Motown, you know, in the way that many artists are entrepreneurs, like, seem to be in a period of delays over some decade or whatever, they actually get much richer during that period of malaise, because what they had built before was so good. And there's still kind of like, they're finally cashing in on it, whereas maybe they didn't cash in on it when it first happened. But like, enough of the sort of like older, wealthier decision makers who can pay them more are like, finally getting hip to the fact that, you know, this is a big deal. So, I would definitely think about Motown that context and that, you know, when Berry was able to sell, you know, a huge chunk, of the company kind of like step back from it, that was after like a a period of time when Motown was not as hot as it had been. But you had things going on, like Motown 25 in 1983, that special. Put together, where MJ came back and reunited, with his brothers and the whole Motown crew and he had, you know, all these other artists, but that was actually the first time I think that MJ moonwalked, you know, sort of in public, like you know, he sort of like the popular debut of the moonwalk and it just really kind of, Created, so much buzz around that, that then kind of rubbed off on Motown and didn't really matter whether he wasn't on Motown anymore, but it just kind of gave a little more shine to the label and gave it sort of like, a relevance, I think that helped kind of carry through to the end of the 80s and helped get Berry Gordy, this really big payday. So, I wouldn't discount like You know, I don't know the sort of like delayed reaction that sort of the half life of fame or whatever you want to call it. But, there were still some of these moments that were created, that kept paying dividends as the time went on. I think [00:36:13] Dan Runcie: That's a fair point because he also sold at this smart time when right as we're seeing in this current era that we're recording, it's a very hot time for music asset transactions as were the late 80s and early 90s too. That's when you saw Geffen do many of the deals that he had done and Gordy. Did the same where I believe he made 61 million from the sale, or at least his portion of the sale in 1988, which is huge. You didn't see people, especially black business owners that fully owned everything being able to cash out at that level. So that's a good point. I'm glad that you mentioned that. And with this is when we start to see the transition of leadership. And we start to see a few things that do ring true. Where the first person that takes over is Gerald Busby, who was leading black music at MCA at the time. And even though Motown had had a bit of its malaise in the 1980s, MCA did not, in many ways, it was seen as the leader in black music. And Bubsy was able to. Have quite a good amount of success there with all of the work that he had done. the thing is though, he had started to run into some issues because he was in this weird dynamic where this company, Polygram had owned part of the label, as did Boston Ventures, his private equity group, and Bubsy was at odds with the folks at Boston Ventures about. some creative control. And he had this quote where he says he'd rather quit Motown president than see the label become a cash cow for a huge corporation trafficking off of nostalgia. And that was a quote that was said back in the 90s just thinking about how. Similar, some of those quotes now come to today. And this was someone who was largely credited from helping to say blast black music from that disco era. But unfortunately, I think a lot of those tensions that he had had, at the time just made life a little bit more difficult for him at Motown. So he eventually we Left. And while he was there, he was able to at least get a few things under. Like he was the one that had brought in voice to men. He had Queen Latifah there. He had Johnny Gill, who was another artist at the time that was quite popular, but maybe hadn't necessarily lived on in the way. And his dreams were, he wanted to have Motown cafes, the same way you had hard rock cafes. He wanted to have the young acts going and touring around at different places to recreate that vibe. And this is something that we'll get into. I think we see time and time again, where these leaders have all these dreams and visions for what they see. Motown can be, but because of the powers that be because of other things, they just can't quite get there to make it happen. [00:38:51] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think that one of the things that set Motown apart early on, you know, as sets many startups apart early on, and many record companies are early on is that they were independent and they could do whatever they wanted. And, you know, Berry Gordy was, sort of like the unquestioned leader and, you know, things kind of, in the way that things kind of get done, let's say more efficiently, if not, more equitably in dictatorships, like he could just get shit done, move things around, have it happen immediately. And so when you started to have, you know, these corporate parents, parent companies, you know, you'd have to go through all these layers of approval to do anything. And, kind of like stop being able to be agile. and I think that's especially important in the music business when, you know, you have to. Not be reactive, but proactive, right? You have to be ahead of things. So, you know, if you're getting to a point where you're having to wait on approvals and things like that, you've already lost because you should have been out in front to begin with. [00:39:48] Dan Runcie: And this is something that I think plagued Motown time and time again, because Gordy didn't necessarily operate in this way. He had so many people that wanted to replicate what he did, but they didn't have the same parameters and the same leeway to make those decisions. As you mentioned, they're now working for corporations that now have their own vested interest. And to be frank, one of the tensions that we see often in music is that these brazen, bold leaders want to be able to take big swings and do things that are innovative and off the cuff. And these corporations are hard set pressed on efficiency. They don't want to see overspending. They don't want to see over commitments, or they want to be able to feel like this is being run in a strategic way. This is something that in the Interscope episode that we talked about, Jimmy Iveen struggled with this as well, even as recently as his tenure with Apple music. But this is one of those frequent tensions that happens with music executives. And we saw that continue with the person that replace Busby, which is Andre Harrell. We talked about him a bit in the Bad Boy episode, but Andre, of course, at this time was coming fresh off of Uptown Records where he was working in collaboration with MCA and he was able to build a little bit of his own fiefdom there where granted he still had people he had to answer to, but I think he had a pretty good relationship with the folks at MCA up until the end there. Then he goes to Motown and he sees this opportunity. And there's a few things that stick out about this because. As early as a year ago, he was starting to get rumored as to be the next person to then take over. But then he gets 250k as an initial announcement. He takes out this full page ad, New York Times. And then he has this ad that essentially says from Uptown to Motown, it's on. And it's him sitting in the back of the chair and you see a sweatshirt in the back. And people hated it. People grilled him. The way that they talked about him, the trades and even Russell Simmons and others coming in and giving him shit about it. He had pretty verbal flight fights with Clarence Avon, who was pretty powerful at the time. And Clarence even said he had swung on him at one particular point and was quite critical of him as well. There's this one quote that I think was really funny here, where this was from the Netflix documentary that was, The Black Godfather, which was about Clarence Avon. And, or actually, no, this is before this summer variety interview, but they talked about this as well. The doc, Clarence says, Andre and I didn't get along. And then he pointed to an image of the Motown boy band, 98 degrees. And Avon says, Andre wanted to send these white boys to Harlem to make them sound black. And I was like, you're out of your fucking mind. And it's a funny quote, because I do think that 98 degrees. Maybe didn't exactly have as many hits as they probably would have thought, but in Andre Harrell's defense, and sadly, but true, the mentality wasn't necessarily wrong because of the 90s, the most successful Motown act that you had was Boyz II Men, and we saw at the end of the decade that, what's that guy's name, the con artist that had the boy bands, Lou Pearlman, like, he literally modeled Backstreet Boys and NSYNC after How can I find white boys to men and make them see modern contemporary and make this happen? And that's how he was able to have success there. And that was before, what's his name? That was before Andre Harrell was really getting going. So he saw where things were going. But it just didn't click at the time. It just wasn't right. And obviously 90 degrees ends up having some decent success, but that's well after Andre Harrell had left the label. So he ended up leaving and the press was not kind to him. Literally headlines were. Andre Harrell gets fired from LA Times it's a type of headline that we probably don't see now when record label execs get fired in the same way. I think the industry is much more controlled in its PR sometimes to a fault, but it was very interesting to see that, come through. And another interesting quote from that, Lucian Grange had called the Andre Harrell at Motown relationship, an organ rejection. In terms of the relationship there. [00:43:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, no, I mean, and it's kind of interesting if you think about, you know, around that same time. What was going on in the music business, what would have been a great fit at Motown that didn't happen, would have been to sign Eminem, right? I mean, rather than try to do it with 98 degrees, if you really want to go and sort of like figure out what the kids are listening to, and do the thing where you have a white guy making black music, like. Holy shit. There's Eminem from Detroit, you know, doing his thing. But, you know, I think it took different kind of Andre to pull that one off. So, you know, in a way well played, you know, I mean, in a way it was like Andre was maybe Andre Harrell was taking some risks, but he wasn't taking quite enough. Like, he wasn't going far enough. He wasn't going way out enough on a limb. So, if you were really going to try to read that Motown, then that then go all the way at the same time, though, I would argue. I mean, if you look back, it's sort of like what worked with Motown and what did it, I think one of Motown's greatest attributes is also a limiting factor. And that's the thing we talked about before it, it's a label, but it's also a genre. And so if you have Motown making hip hop, it's like, wait a minute this isn't Motown. Like this isn't the genre of Motown. Like this is not the thing that I heard at my aunt's wedding, you know, this is something different. So, I think that they got kind of caught in between and I know that they've done all this stuff in hip hop over the years and, whatever, but it still doesn't feel like quite a fit because Motown, I mean that, you know, Motown was Motown, Motown wasn't hip hop and, you know, maybe if it had started getting into hip hop in the early days of hip hop. you know, it would have felt a little bit different about that, but, you know, hip hop is Def Jam, hip hop is is Roc-A-Fella hip hop is Bad Boy, and I just, you know, for all the efforts that Motown has made to get into hip hop, I think, it, has had a hard time, you know, fully sticking in the way that it would need to for Motown to replicate its, early success. [00:45:51] Dan Runcie: And one of the things that I think that a lot of these post Berry Gordy leaders struggled with was... As you mentioned, yeah, with Andre Harrell or others, there was the desire and opportunity to be able to do more, but the combination of the corporate structures in place that just didn't give them the same freedom that a Berry Gordy himself would have had. And then secondly. The business structure of how Motown itself as a company was set up didn't necessarily allow that because even things like radio or promotion and things like that, they still relied on other labels under the corporate umbrella, even to this day to get some of those things in place. So it really wasn't. Given the same freedom, even though their name, especially in the late 90s early two thousands was used in, especially back then it was the whole universal Republic Motown group or whatever the amalgamation was at the time. It really wasn't given the same freedom as some of those other record labels were. And I think we saw those challenges come in from time with some of the other leaders as well, because. Afterward, after, Harrell left, you had George Jackson who was there, felt like a bit more interim there for a couple of years. And then you had Kedar Mazenberg who was there late 90s early 2000. And that was a bit more than Neo soul vibe. You had India, Ari and a few others, but he has this quote that he gave to the independent, 2000 where he says, but we're not going to dominate the pop charts. Like we used to, how can we, there are too many other companies out there for that. So please don't compare it to the Motown of yesteryear. This is someone that is in the leadership role saying that exact quote. like How do you get past that? And then he talks again. I think they made a comparison to Def Jam where he said, you know, Def Jam, it took 10, 20 years to get to this established guidance, the way that you did with someone like a Lyor Cohen. And you essentially had that with Berry Gordy. But again, Lior was doing this before Def Jam ended up, you know, becoming under the whole Island Def Jam group and everything happened there. After that, you have Sylvia Roan, who was rising up the ranks herself. Still one of the most successful Black women in media and music right now. She's currently at Epic, but she had her time at Motown as well. And I'm going to get into her because I have something I want to say for missed opportunities there. And then you get more recently to the era of Ethiopia Habtamirian, who was there from 2011. Up until 2022, and she's 1 of those that I do feel like was put in a pretty hard spot because on 1 hand, she was able to essentially double the market share. Thanks in part to the partnership that she had made with hip hop through quality control to be able to help. them succeed And this is especially when the Migos are first starting to pop off, and then that transitions into the success of artists like Lil Yachty and Lil Baby and City Girls and others. But I think that also some of the overspending and things like that were quite critiqued. And especially from a PR perspective, the same way I was mentioning earlier when. Andre Harrell's challenges were bright front and center for the entire industry to read. Ethiopia's necessarily weren't in the same way. And even in some of the aspects of her leaving, the media had they called it a bit more reflective of, oh, Ethiopia has chosen to step down. When, yes, that's true, but there was also a pretty large severance package from Lucian and others at UMG. And again, I don't think she was necessarily given as much leadership either, because Motown was kind of, and still is kind of under capital, but now they've essentially moved it back. They had announced that she was solely the CEO back in 2021, but that was a pretty short lived. And to be honest, it felt like. Yeah. 1 of those announcements that the industry made in this, like, post George Floyd era to try to highlight and support black CEOs, which was great to see, but she's someone that's talented. You don't want to see her just become a tokenized person to have this. So, even though, like any CEO, I think there was things you could point out that she probably could have done differently. Still wasn't given the most leeway to begin with it. Now we're back in this point where what is Motown who's leading Motown. It's essentially the subsidiary under capital, but it's now a brand. And who knows where things are going to be. And it's quite unfortunate, but given everything that we've said up into this point, it also, isn't that surprising just given the dynamic. [00:50:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think, you know, like you mentioned the the partnership with quality control. I mean, I think. That was a smart way to get more involved in hip hop because that was a brand that did have roots in hip hop more that, kind of resonated. and so when you sort of like, build as a partnership and look at it that way, it seems a little more credible than like,you know, Motown is doing hip hop now. so it's too bad that, you know, things kind of turned out the way they did, but, it's an interesting asset, right? I mean, it's a brand that has a lot of value. But it's not exactly clear, you know, how to sort of monetize it. And I think with Motown right now, it's like, it's probably about more, than the music, right? Like that's maybe where most of the monetization opportunity would be, whether it's, you know, Motown branded, you know, I don't know, films and, you know, I don't know, products, whatever the case may be. It resonates more, I think, than it does, as a record label. And people don't care so much about record labels anymore. Like we've talked about this, you know, in prior episodes, but it's not the same. You're not going to put on your record on a record player and see that big Motown logo on it, you're having something pop up your ear. And there, there's no visual, like, you don't know whether it's on Motown or Def Jam or Universal or Sony or, and you don't probably don't care. Right. I mean, and I think as things have kind of blurred together, genres are blurring together, you know, different, labels are gobbling each other up over the years, you know, people have just kind of like lost track and, you know, sort of like the idea of a label just isn't as important anymore. So, I do think that it's. a valuable piece of IP and, you know, there's things to do with it still. But, you know, I think, Berry Gordy certainly like squeezed, you know, all he could out of it and, did a great job of sort of ultimately profiting off of what it was that he built. [00:52:04] Dan Runcie: Right. Because what you have right now is this brand where they do have Motown the musical, which I do think has been pretty successful, both in the US and in Europe and elsewhere that it's traveled. but that's it. I mean, quality control partnership doesn't exist in the same way since they've been now bought by hive. Hopefully, Ethiopia and those folks were able to at least retain some type of revenue for helping to set the framework to make that deal possible, but we'll see I, where I landed with this is that. The way to quote unquote, I don't want to say save Motown because that can just seems like such a blanket statement, but if you were trying to improve it from its current inevitable state, it would be finding a way to spin off the asset and the catalog from Universal and having it be in the hands of someone else who can make it work. The challenge is Universal isn't going to want to give that asset up. That's one of their most valuable back catalogs that they have. So. I was thinking through it in my mind, the same way that you have someone like a Tyler Perry, who are these modern moguls that have a bit of that Berry Gordy vibe to them. The way that Tyler Perry is, we'll see whether or not he ends up buying BET, but could that same mentality be applied to a record label? And then with that, you're able to then build up your own promotion. You're able to build up your own talent, and then you take things in a slightly different way. I still don't think that guarantees success, but at least you shake things up in a particular way and you still give it that black ownership mentality. You give it a bit more of that independence and the autonomy and you could potentially see what happens because. We all know what the continued fate is as a legacy entity of a catalog holder that it would be under the UMG umbrella. [00:53:50] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, a hundred percent. Totally agree. [00:53:52] Dan Runcie: And with that, I think it would be a good time to dig into some of these categories here. So what do you think is the biggest, this will may be obvious, but what do you think is the biggest signing that they've done or that Motown ever did? [00:54:04] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think I'd go with the Jackson 5 I mean, you know, although Motown did not ultimately profit off of MJ's solo career, in the way that it would have if it had retained him for a solo career, Motown did profit off of the association as he became the biggest musical star, but basically entertainer of any kind in the world. and, you know, going back to the Motown 25 moment, you know, other kinds of associations. So I would say like good process. Not really a bad outcome, but like signing the Jackson 5 could have been the path to also signing Michael Jackson as a solo artist. And then, you know, just because that didn't work out in the end, does it mean that that wasn't a huge signing for them? [00:54:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I was going to say Jackson 5 or Stevie Wonder, which is the one that I had and I say him because of the longevity because even when times were rough, Stevie Wonder still had arguably his best decade in the 70s But, he had a number of them that were there, especially in the seventies. I think that was his strongest run and he stayed through. And I think that in a lot of ways helped bridge the gap during some of those low moments when other artists did come and went. Did come and go. So that was the one I had there. What do you have as the best business move? [00:55:18] Zack Greenburg: Well, okay. This is something we haven't talked about and maybe we should talk about it but more, but here we are, we'll talk about it more now. I think it was Berry Gordy setting up, his publishing company. So, I mean, maybe that's cheating a little bit because it was outside of, Motown itself but of He set up Joe bet, publishing, you know, pretty early on. And he didn't realize, you know, his big payday for it until later 1997, but he sold it for 132 million for just for half of it. so the EMI, and then he sold another 30% for I think 109 million. And then he sold the rest of it for, something like 80 million in, what was that? It was like 2004. So, you know, we're talking like over a quarter billion dollars and that's not inflation adjusted. you know, for the publishing and that, you know, that dwarfed whatever he got for Motown itself. So, and, you know, think about if he held onto it until, the recent publishing Bonanza, I mean, I mean, it could have been close to a billion dollar catalog, right? I mean, you know, there's nothing, really like it out there. So. He was always very smart about ownership and I think Michael Jackson knew that and, you know, studied him as a kid growing up. And that's kind of what convinced Michael to want to own his own work, and also in the Beatles work, which then became the basis of Sony ATV. And that was another massive catalog. So, yeah, I think the publishing side of it definitely gets overlooked and, you know, was ultimately the most, financially valuable part. But, even though it was sort of a separate. Company, you know, I would argue it, for sure it wouldn't have happened without Motown happening. [00:56:51] Dan Runcie: That's a great one. And I'm glad you mentioned that. Cause definitely could get overlooked and doesn't get talked enough about in this whole business. I think publishing in general is something that people don't understand. And so they just don't, dig into it, but he wrote it. I mean, he owned everything. And obviously when you own the value. When you own something that valuable, it has its assets. And I think why publishing continues to be so valuable in the industry is because I think that the origins of the industry have always had this thought of, well, you could get anyone to go sing the song, but it takes a true genius to write the actual underlying product. And I think we've seen that continue time and time again. So that worked out in his favor. The one thing that I'll say is on the production side, this is one of the specific things he did that I did think just helped from a, output perspective, there used to be a rule at the time where a record label could only have, whether it was like one song shared in a particular time period with the radio station. So he was the one that created all these sub labels, whether it was Tamla records or others that were all still, labels that he owned, but he would then release them time and time again and promote those. So it was a different record label that was pushing things onto the consumer, but it was still that Motown vibe. It was still everything that was coming from Hitsville and that helped them just continue to gain and grow effectively and reach the audience. I think as well, combining that with how they were able to maximize derivative work. We talked about this a little bit with the bad boy episode, but so many ways that did he was huge on having the part one and part two of songs or having the remixes or getting the whole bad boy through on this song that was already successful, very Gordy was doing that stuff 3040 years earlier and was able to reap the rewards for that. So I put that as one of the business moves we haven't talked about that I do think is up there for them. That's a really good one. I like that. Yeah. dark horse. Do you have one that doesn't get talked about enough? [00:58:51] Zack Greenburg: Ooh, I'd probably say the publishing again, but, Yeah, I think it applies because you barely hear about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's such a big deal that I kind of have a hard time not, but you know, I guess, to switch things up, I mean, I would talk about maybe, I mean, you could say Motown 25 certainly, was something that Motown produced. but I mean, I'm almost say. you know, I think like the whiz is an interesting one.  Not because it was that necessarily profitable, but because it, you know, it represented Motown's expansion into film and, you know, like, I don't know what you can do with a cast, of musicians. I mean, Diana Ross and Michael Jackson were in there, obviously. that's like a seminal film and I think it was important, you know, culturally, to sort of like an immeasurable extent, you know, even if it wasn't like the most profitable film ever made. It was like, very expensive to make it all that. But yeah, I would kind of look at that as something that was important, just for what it was and not necessarily for what it made. [01:00:01] Dan Runcie: That's a good one. I was thinking about mentioning that earlier, but the timing just didn't work. So I'm glad you mentioned that here. Dark horse, I talked about them a little bit, but I do think the success of Boyz II Men in the 90s for Motown gets overlooked. This was the biggest group in the world at one point. I mean, they were huge. They were everywhere. And they were so commercially successful. They made music for everyone. And I know sometimes people may laugh at it and call it middle school music sometimes, but I think they were. Just able to hit the right note, the right time for what it is. I feel like they really, of any group that has really come since the, I'd say my lifetime of actually being a music consumer, they were the ones that felt the closest to, okay, this feels like a modern continuation of Motown. If you were to say, okay, what does the success of Motown look like, but in a 90s package? It would be Boys II men. They actually had them in an era where it was competitive, and they were quite successful. Unfortunately, it didn't last forever, but I mean, they lasted arguably longer in popularity than a lot of the boy bands and others that came after them, in just in terms of how long that their run was. And, you know, some of those groups may have been more commercially successful, but it's good to see them still thriving. And the fact that they've been in Vegas, they have a good living. They're able to just continue to essentially succeed at this residency model that others have caught on to themselves and have made plenty of money with, I think that they worked out pretty well for Motown. [01:01:32] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And I think they really fit with the Motown ethos, even if it's not like the same genre exactly as, what Motown was before, it's like, you could hear it at your aunt's wedding, right? I mean, you can hear it at your cousin's wedding, whatever. I don't know why I say aunt, like everybody's aunt is getting worse or something or like, it's only recently getting great, but, whosoever wedding it is, you know, you could hear Motown, you could hear Boyz II Men, and I think, you know, that's kind of the continuation of the identity. I think that's a really good point. [01:01:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, so for missed opportunity, I want to go first with this one. And this is what I was holding out on. I was going to share it in the Sylvia Roan focus, but I want to share it now. So in 2007, that's when Sylvia Roan starts have, she's the head of Motown just from a timeline perspective, she's head of Motown at this point. She starts having the conversations with Drake and there was actually some type of deal in place. And this was Drake right around that comeback season era. So far gone, wasn't there. And according to Drake, Drake says that she says that he didn't quite have enough to be able to, you know, make it as a true superstar. He, of course, takes light to that he ends up working with Cash Money and then ends up working with, you know, Republic and thereafter. But this has to be a huge sliding doors moment because he has held it against where he calls Sylvia out on the song. Say what's real the opening track of so far gone. He ended up apologizing because he said some unkind words about her. So he didn't apologize necessarily for the ethos behind what he said, but he apologized for his word choice. He brings it up again, two years later at like some type of award show. And then, you know, he has that song, we made it from the mixtape where he's like a 2007. I was in the lobby at Uptown or whatever. So he goes back to it almost in the same way that, you know, Jordan would go back to being cut on his freshman year, or Kobe is listing all the people that were drafted ahead of him. And then when you think about that in the context of the Michael Jackson, Jackson 5 thing, not working out. Motown almost has this like Portland Trailblazers history where I feel like not getting Michael Jackson and making that work was almost like them drafting Sam Bowie ahead of Michael Jordan 1984 draft. And then years later, them not signing Drake when he was there and wanting to come through is like drafting Greg Oden over Kevin Durant if you're the Portland Trailblazers. And can you imagine how much different Motown's fate would be the past? 14, 15 years, if they had signed Drake, we would be having a very different conversation today. [01:04:07] Zack Greenburg: That's a really great, connection. And I hadn't really thought about it that way. Yeah, absolutely, and you know, for mine, the missed opportunity was, MJ as well. So, you know, you kind of connect it with that through line, I also wonder if like Jermaine was something of a missed opportunity. I guess he was given kind of every opportunity, every advantage you could have had. But, you know, he had the name recognition, but it used to really connect as a solo artist. I mean, I wonder if, they'd maybe given him more creative freedom, maybe given him less creative freedom. I don't know that he could have really been the standout solo artist. But then again, I guess, you know, looking back in the fullness of time, you know, he was never going to be the biggest Jackson brother. So, you know, man, I mean, I know Michael and Berry had a really good relationship. and I think that Michael's dad and Berry you know, didn't necessarily. So. If that had been a little different, they could have stayed. and maybe you would have seen Michael, you know, coming out of the whiz, you know, not profitable movie into making some very profitable records for Motown. But, you know, then again, I mean, and I think that's the big question, right? Like Michael Jackson's records did so well because he was able to be Michael Jackson. Would Berry have sort of like prevented him from taking some of these weird risks? Like, I mean, Thriller is a weird, like, campy song, you know? and it does not fit anything in in the Motown vibe. Do you think Berry Gordy would have been okay with this sort of like, like, you know, very bizarre music video, like dead people walking around. I mean, it's not really in his, assembly line, you know, there are no zombies in the assembly line, for Motown. so who knows how it would have turned out, if MJ had stayed, but, you know, I, I think one way or the other, as with all the Motown artists, right? These are all creative people and they were able to make their own, sort of, you know, put their own stamp on the world. And I think MJ would have been able to do that if he'd stayed too. [01:05:55] Dan Runcie: And I think the same could be said about Drake as well with that timing too, of course, we're talking about now in this context of Drake, in many ways, becoming the most commercially successful artist of the past 14, 15 years. I know you can say Taylor and a few others, but one of. But what would that look like on Motown? We don't know necessarily. Would they have tried to turn him into Trey Songz, and then he's following that path, or something like that, which is something that Drake has spoken to himself. There's clearly something about that continuity of the Cortez Bryan, and then Wayne and Young Money, and being able to have that ecosystem working together, combined with the, with Baby and Slim, combined with the folks at Republic. There is clearly an energy there. And then, you know, if Drake was on a label that didn't even have its own promotion or its own tools, how could that have worked out for him? So some of these hypotheticals don't always necessarily line up, still missed opportunities, but don't necessarily always line up. [01:06:55] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think that cash money gave Drake An edge that he would not have had at Motown, you know, and simply by having that side of the hip hop world, you know, kind of cosigning him, I think it evened out, some of his tendencies in a way that, made him a more well rounded artist. [01:07:13] Dan Runcie: Agreed. before we get to the last piece about who won the most, who lost the most, do you think that we would ever get Motown truly on the big screen? And part of me isn't sure because obviously Dreamgirls, which people have debated whether that's loosely veiled on Motown or not, I probably lead more to yes than not. Berry Gordy hated it. And so many people that were associated with it hated it because of how he was presented. And if that's the reaction to Dreamgirls. Then what would the final output be of something that Berry Gordy did give his blessing on, especially if you want to be able to tell a story as nuanced as the one that we've been talking about now? [01:07:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, no, I don't think, he would ever greenlight anything that was like, you know, completely 100% accurate, even if it didn't reflect so well on him. But, you know, then again, I mean, you know, his story, it might not be a hundred percent the real story, but it's a great story, you know, so, I guess you could kind of look at it anyway. I don't know. What do you think? [01:08:17] Dan Runcie: It would be a great story and I think that in the right hands, it would be really magical and unique to see something. So many of we've seen so many biopics now done about figures who have had complex histories. And there's always some things that have been debated and nuanced with it as well. I do think that for instance, I think that Elton John Rocketman one was one that I actually thought was better than most people give it credit for. And I think it was honestly better than like Elvis, the more recent movie that had made a ton of money. But I see those, I'm like, okay, they found ways to tell these things. I don't know if Berry Gordy himself, getting back to just him being, wanting to be in control, wanting to have everything be to a certainty. How much creative control is he going to want to offer in that way? Granted, he's now 93 years old. I don't know if I'm seeing him rolling up the sleeves, getting in the weeds in the same way, but it might be a while until we actually see something grace the screen like that. [01:09:13] Zack Greenburg: I think so, too. Just wait for the Baz Luhrmann version. It's coming. [01:09:19] Dan Runcie: Oh, goodness. who do you think won the most out of Motown? This is probably easier. Yeah, I think there's [01:09:26] Zack Greenburg: no way to argue anything other than Berry Gordy, you know, you could make an argument for MJ. I mean, you could say that, he learned so much, that he then took out of this environment where he was really not able to earn that much money. And then, you know, applied it in his own way, applied the lessons, not only to the music, but to the music asset buying, which was, you know, for him, I think, just as lucrative as the music itself. I mean, that's all stuff he got from Berry Gordy, he got from Motown. So, you know, you could make an argument for MJ. I mean, he earned by my calculations, and, you know, I have to go back and look at the exact number, but it was over a billion dollars in his lifetime. And I think it's over 2 billion dollars since he died. And I think that's not even adjusted for inflation. So, you know, I mean, Berry Gordy, made hundreds of millions, you know, MJ made billions. Would he have done it if he hadn't been in Motown? I don't know, but, let's say, I think he always had the talent. but, you know, the business acumen, I think he really picked up in, to a large part from, Berry Gordy, of course, he had some negative business tendencies as well. and some other stuff, of course, that we could have a whole other episode on, but, I think at the end of the day, yeah, he learned a a lot from Berry but, you know, you still got to say Berry is the clear winner from Montana. [01:10:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I agree. Nothing else to add there. I think that was the right take. It's Berry but there's a case to be made for Michael. Here's a new one. who do you think lost the most? [01:10:43] Zack Greenburg: Oooh Jermaine. Yeah, Jermaine. Man, you know, I mean. I don't know, like, why didn't it work? Can we go back and do a whole episode on that? I mean, he had the fandom, the infrastructure, he had like an international fan base. I mean, I guess, I guess it's a matter of, you know, it's always the risk when you have somebody who's part of a really big group and they go out on their own and it just doesn't, you know, have quite the same resonance, but, you know, I mean, he put everything, on Motown, you know, both in his personal life and in his, music career. And it just didn't really quite turn out, I think like anybody had hoped. So. I'll go with Jermaine. [01:11:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think it's fair because even if you look at Janet, right? It's like she may not have had the career that Michael had, but it proved that there was an appetite for other Jacksons, like, people wanted to see this come through, and did he put it, did he bet on the wrong horse? That might be strong, but it wouldn't be a wrong takeaway, I would say, mine is on the executive side. I could be blanket and say every executive that led Motown after Berry Gordy, because I just don't think they were positioned the best for success. But I do think specifically Andre Harrell, because I think if you go back to that era, he was big time. He wasn't even in the. I mean, even beyond just music, because of everything he had when he had that Uptown and MCA deal, and he had that Strictly Business, Strictly Business movie and others, they were elevating him the same way that they were looking at this renaissance of black talent and art, whether you looked at folks like Spike Lee, especially in the post, he's got to have it and do the right thing era, he was in that era. He was in that frame. And I think that everything. Yeah. In a lot of ways, went downhill, at least from a public perception of, you know, global influence. Granted, I know he's still at Harrell Records after he ended up working with Diddy again, but it was more so one of these more journeyman roles of, you know, I have this small thing that can make it work instead of being on a path to being one of the most successful black entertainment moguls from the US. And I think that before Motown and before everything for him. A lot of the challenges and dirty laundry and things that, you know, he obviously was criticized for inefficiency as others were. But I think that there would have been an opportunity for him to be able to realize more of that potential. And it kind of makes me think of just not just categorizing him, but the same way that we look at sports where there's certain franchises that just haven't been able to Get beyond a certain point. I look at the New York Nixon granted up until this point, this year, it's been a pretty tumultuous past 20 years, especially in that post, you know, Riley, Jeff Van Gundy, 90s era. I don't think all the coaches they had were bad, but you have this broader infrastructure with the owner and everything else going on. Like, I don't care if you had, you actually did have Phil Jackson come through. I don't care if you had Steve Curran, Greg Popovich come through. I think they would have struggled as well. And I think that some of that exists with Motown, but just given the structure, you have someone talented like Harrell. And I think a lot of the image got put. On him as someone that couldn't cut it as opposed to this broader structure, that made it tough to succeed. [01:13:58] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think that's a really fair point. And, you know, I think that was sort of the moment when it was like, is Andre going to sort of like, continue staying ahead of his mentor, Puffy or not. And, you know, obviously he did not, and then he went from being the boss to the employee again, you know, not a bad situation, to be in working for Puffy necessarily. I mean, I guess it could be a little tough to work for Puffy sometimes is he referred, but in this case, you know, yeah, he ended up being surpassed by his own. But his own protege, shall we say, which, you know, I guess is also a mark of good mentorship to some level, but he did seem like he got kind of stymied, or hit a ceiling at some point. [01:14:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. All right. Before we wrap things up on Motown, anything else that we didn't cover that you wanted to talk through about Motown? [01:14:40] Zack Greenburg: I think that does it. I think, you know, well, I think we could have like five more episodes, but you know, for the purposes of, the listenership, you know, probably we covered it pretty darn thoroughly, I'd say. [01:14:49] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Yeah, and I think this is good. All right. Well, before we wrap things up with this episode, I know you have some new stuff that you've been working on.  So tell us about the JayZ index I know this is something you've been working on. We talked about it, a little while ago when you were brainstorming the idea, but it's come to life and you shared it this week. So tell us about it. [01:15:06] Zack Greenburg: That's right. So, you know, back in the day, I was a personal finance reporter at Forbes, and that was even before I, you know, started writing about hip hop and the entertainment business and doing biographies of Jay Z and what have you. And so, when I was a personal finance writer, I used to do these things we called money manager profiles. And basically you just find somebody who managed private assets in an interesting way. Maybe it was like an endowment or something, and you would kind of like try to put together, something that was representative that, you know, retail investors could buy. And so it occurred to me the other day, like, you could do that with Jay Z. He has his hands and, you know, so many different pies at this point, so many of the companies that he's been involved with are now tied to, publicly traded companies. And, you could actually create like a Jay Z Index. So I kinda, I just sort of like started as a thought experiment. and then I dug a little bit deeper and I came up with 11 different stocks and, you know, I did allocations based on sort of what his, percentage of his overall net worth they represent. And, you know, so it goes from, you know, something as small as luxury vehicles, 2%. I put Rolls Royce, which is publicly traded, which makes jet engines in addition to cars, because Jay Z has, you know, a private jet in addition to his, automobile collection, you know, all the way up to some of the companies that he does business with, whether it's, you know, live nation and the rock nation partnership, LVMH, which is now, you know, his partner on Armand de Brignac, there's a whole bunch of other stuff in there. So I put it out on my sub stack, which you can find at Zonglong.com. It'll take you right to the thing and to check it out. But, yeah, I just, you know, we always have put the caveats of like, investing involves risk. This is not a solicitation to buy securities or whatever, but, you know, I just thought it was really fun exercises. I talked about it like, it's not the same, obviously you can't create Jay Z's portfolio. a hundred percent, because that's the point. That's why a billionaire cause he does these things. He seeks them out. He attaches his name to it and they become more valuable. But I like to call it, you know, like you could build a Lego model of the empire state building, you can do that equivalent, with this portfolio. And, so actually I created a Google Finance watch list, and I'm going to track it and see how the JayZ index performs against SOP and some other benchmarks. And, you know, maybe we can talk about it again in six months or something. [01:17:19] Dan Runcie: That's awesome. So for all the people out there that would rather take a dinner with Jay Z instead of getting 50, 000, maybe we should check out this index. Then you can see how it compares. And maybe your money would actually be better off investing how Jay Z invests instead of passing up 50, 000 for the chance to talk to them. [01:17:36] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, what's his line at, I'm trying to give you a million dollars worth of game for 9.99 so trying to give you a billion dollars worth of game with the Jay-Z Index. So check it out. [01:17:46] Dan Runcie: Nice. And yeah, we'll link to it in the show notes for sure. Very good. Very good stuff, man. Always a pleasure. [01:17:52] Zack Greenburg: All right, Dan, as always, have a good one. [01:17:54] Dan Runcie: You too. Take care. All right. [01:17:56] Dan Runcie Audio Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast. Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 13 Jul 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Motown Records: The Hit Factory That Changed Music Forever full Dan Runcie Few record labels have left their stamp on the industry quite like Motown.  This assembly line churned out hit song after hit song in the ‘60s and early ‘70s. With a who’s-who roster — Marin Gaye, The Jackson 5, Diana Ross, and Stevie Wonder, among others — The Hitsville U.S.A. sign Gordy put on Motown’s front door became warranted.  This episode is the story of Motown Records — it’s formula for success, what led to its decline, and where it stands today under Universal. I’m joined by friend of the pod, Zack O’Malley Greenburg. Here’s what we covered in this episode: 0:38 Berry Gordy’s origin story 8:08 Motown museum in Detroit 9:20 Cultivating a culture of creativity 13:05 Shifting the sound of Black music 20:12 Motown’s knack for discovering talent  34:29 The beginning of the decline 36:12 80’s decade of transition 39:48 Post-Gordy struggles 45:51 Motown’s uncertainty today 53:59 Best signing? 55:16 Best business move? 568:45 Dark horse move? 1:01:58 Biggest missed opportunity? 1:07:13 Motown big-screen picture 1:09:22 Berry Gordy won big 1:10:41 Who lost the most? 1:14:56 Zack’s Jay Z index Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Zack Greenburg: Berry Gordy created with Motown and sort of the Motown genre, which I think really like more than any label has become synonymous beyond just sort of like the name of label itself, you say Motown music, and a testament to the sound that he created, [00:00:13] Dan Runcie Audio Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:38] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is a deep dive into the one and only legendary Motown records. At its peak, Motown was the most successful black business in the country. It peaked at 30 million dollars of revenue in 1968 and Barry Gordy and his team assembled a sound. a unique genre of music that produced hit after hit after hit and Hitsville USA lived up to its promise. So in this episode, we take you through the origins of how Motown came to be. What are some of the business principles and strategies that worked in its favor? And then what are some of the challenges that Motown faced too? It's now been 50 years since the peak of Motown. And this record label has had plenty of ups and downs and plenty of journeys that we went deep on in this episode. And I'm joined by Zach Greenburg He is a biographer of Jay Z and several others, and he also wrote about Michael Jackson. And in that he talked about Michael Jackson's time with Motown, especially in the Jackson 5. So we had a lot of fun in this one. So come take a trip down memory lane with us. Here's our episode on Motown. [00:01:42] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're back with another case study style episode, and we're going deep into Hitsville, USA. Motown, baby. Let's do this, Zack, I'm excited for this one. [00:01:53] Zack Greenburg: Thanks for having me as always. [00:01:55] Dan Runcie: Berry Gordy is so fascinating because At one point, this was the most successful black business. They're the most successful black entrepreneur in the country invented a genre. And it's so hard to be able to do that. And that legacy still lives on today. We know so many record labels that have taken inspiration from what Berry Gordy built with Motown records, but let's start from the beginning. What inspired Berry Gordy to even want to get involved with music in the first place? [00:02:23] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. So, you know, Berry Gordy, and his family were in the Detroit area, you know, a bunch of serial entrepreneurs, get a record shop early on, but he was actually like semi professional boxer coming up. And, think one thing led to another and you just kind of saw that, you know, there was a market that was not being served in music. you know, certainly like the business was concentrated, on the coast and particularly in New York at that time, you know, eventually more in LA, but. you know, there was some stuff going on in Chicago. there was some regional acts, regional labels, things like that. But, you know, I think he just basically saw an opportunity, to start something. And, you know, sort of in the way that if you look at, Richard Branson or Puffy or, you know, what are those types of entrepreneurs? It's almost It doesn't really matter what they get into. They find a way to make it work. and they're just always on the lookout for a new sector. That's, kind of, you know, right for some creative destruction, know, and some refreshing or some freshening, some revising, I don't know, whatever you would call it. And, you know, in the case of Berry Gordy. Kind of amazingly, when you think about music over the past half century, he looked around and he thought, well, this is actually, this is a sector that is very promising amongst all the sectors that I could possibly get into. So, that's how Motown came to pass. [00:03:36] Dan Runcie: That point about whether it's Diddy, Branson, Gordy, and I think a lot of the tech CEOs fall in this category as well. You're going to put them in any generation. And I do think that these people would have found a way to make things work. And that's the same point you're making, right? He saw an opportunity to music, but let's say he came 30 years later. It could have been another aspect. Let's say he came today, probably could have been trying to do something in AI or even figure it out, how to make AI, be transformative with his music. And I think a lot of his work, whether you think about how he built derivative work or how he had this process with artists that we'll get into so much of it taps into, okay, here's an opportunity to optimize things. Here's how we can make things work. And music just happened to be the format. He chose it. [00:04:21] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And even, you know, when you think about it, he got started sort of mid century 30 years later, he was looking into other things, getting involved in film and TV. And You know, moving the business out West, but, you know, we'll get there eventually, but, he certainly did, you know, find other ways to extend the Motown brand as time went on. [00:04:37] Dan Runcie: So he starts off, he has this record business and things go okay with that. specifically talking about the store. And that was a lot of it was connected a bit more from the family perspective, but then he ends up getting the job at Ford specifically working with that Lincoln mercury plant. And that's when he was only there for 2 years, but he then sees how the process works and the whole concept of Ford is, which is that assembly line process that Henry Ford has been famous for. He sees that and then he taps back into his opportunities with music and he's like, okay. Okay, there's an opportunity to do the same with music. So he sees this assembly line, essentially have all these parts go through the inputs. And then the output, you get this car, he wanted to be able to pull some kid off the street, bring them into the Motown and bring them into this record label facility. And then outcomes a star. And he felt like he had the ability to be able to create that type of dynamic. And it took some time to get there, but that's essentially what he did. And a lot of the creations of what we saw from Hitsville USA was that exactly. [00:05:48] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And, he'll tell you that, I've interviewed him a couple of times. Once for Forbes, once for my book, Michael Jackson Inc, where he talked a lot about that. And, you know, he really has a formula, for making a hit song. And, you know, it's sort of like the song has to have a clear beginning, middle at an end. The chorus has to have a sort of grand arc that summarizes the song every time it happens. And then there's a sort of like grand finale bridge ending thing that, brings it all together, always at the end you hear the artist shout out the song's name almost, you know, invariably one last time and you know, that's like pure marketing, right? And you think about it in those days, this great songs on, you're hearing it, but like, you know, maybe you're in the car, it's on the radio, maybe you're artist and a record player. It's not popping up on your phone. So you know what it's called when you hear Michael Jackson shout out, I want you back at the end and I want you back. what you're going to go out and buy, you know what, you're going to call in, you know, to the radio station and ask them to play. So, it's very calculated, it really works and it's proven and, you know, if it sort of seems like, gosh. You know, this is like a cliche. This is obvious. I think part of it is because he helped create this cliche, obvious thing, right? I mean, things become cliche or obvious because they're smart or necessary most of the time. So, you know, at some point it was novel and, you know, very corny, I think was part of, making that whole song structure novel. And, you know, really. When you look at how he executed it, you know, I think a modern day analog, we talked about this, you know, before on our bad boy episode, but so, you know, his role was very much like the Puffy role, or at least the early Puffy role in production. So, you know, he had a hand in songwriting and production, but, you know, mostly he figured out who he wanted to have producing his labels, songs and sort of who he wanted to be in charge of authoring that certain type of sound. So for Berry Gordy, it was a handful of, producers called the corporation, just like Puffy had the Hitmen. And, you know, then he would kind of come in and do his own little thing on top when he thought it was necessary. But, you know, in a way it kind of adds that whole assembly line aspect, right? Where, you know, that there's going to be a certain level of quality, there's going to be like a distinctive sound, whether it's a bad boy or Motown, or, you know, even going back to, you know, what a Ford car was, you know, in those days you had kind of an ideology to get. And I think that's one of the things that really set Motown apart. [00:08:08] Dan Runcie: Exactly. And I think with that too, you have him going through the process of starting this. So this record label started with an 800 with 800. That's what he had initially. And he uses that to then start Hitsville USA. So that's the location on Grand Ave in Detroit. Have you been to this museum by the way? [00:08:30] Zack Greenburg: I did. We did a special event there. One time we had the Forbes 30 under 30, Summit and we did this like, special, like one off private interview where I went there with Quavo and we sat in Motown studios, you know, where Michael Jackson and all them had recorded. and we did a little like video discussion on the state of the music business, I think it's floating around the internet somewhere, but, it's a really cool building. I mean, I think what strikes. Me the most, you know, like the first time I went in is like the fact that just a house. I mean, it really just looks like a house. the rooms are sort of like room size, you know, it's not some sprawling like, you know, I don't know, institutional type place like a lot of modern, recording studios, you know, it's just a converted house but you know, you kind of walk through each room and it's museum and everything now, so you can kind of get a feel for it. It's very different from the modern day glitz and glamour of the record business for sure. [00:09:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah, been there twice. it was really cool because just like you said, you feel like you're actually in a home and that's the vibe that the studio gives you. And I felt like the people that were the tour guides as well, they clearly knew their history in a way where it should sound obvious, but that could obviously be hit or miss with museum sometimes. So I felt like that piece of it was good. And it ties back to a few things that tap into the culture that it is. Gordy wanted to create that. I think make it work. He lived upstairs. Studio is downstairs. So he has everything there and he wanted to make this somewhere that creativity could spawn at any particular moment. So he wanted to create a 24/7. Set up where he had made sure the vending machines were always stocked. So people could stay there year, you know, day in day out. If creativity comes to you at 3 p. m. or 3 a. m. you can go right there and do what you have to do. And you could keep things moving there internally. And this is one of the things that I do think worked really well for them because. Although I think the music industry has gotten away from this, there was this era where the culture and the vibe that you could create from a label and all that continuity really helped things. So when you saw how deliberate he was from an assembly line perspective was essentially keeping his product in place and keeping all the materials in place so that it can produce outputs at any given moments to just increase the likelihood that you could have hits coming time and time again. [00:10:49] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I mean, he certainly spoke a lot about, quality control, which is, it's kind of funny, you know, given the eventual QC relationship, but, you know, I think that's a really big part of it. And when you're that hands on and, you know, in some cases you could say micromanaging, but it does enable you to really have a unified. We can also get into this, fact that at some point it can become a bit of a creative constraint for artists as they mature. [00:11:14] Dan Runcie: Right, because with quality control, there was someone on the team that listened to everything that came through Motown and they essentially picked the best. They brought it to this weekly meeting and most of the Motown artists weren't writing or producing their materials necessarily, but they were going in and you had all these artists that would essentially sing. The same exact song and then they would pick the best version that came out of that to then release the song. Sometimes they had multiple artists that would end up releasing a version. And we saw different versions of this where you had both Diana Ross and Marvin Gaye have their versions of Ain't No Mountain high enough. Granted it was a few years later in different songs, but a lot of that stems from that quality control aspect. And there's this one quote that, was here from One of the books that was written about, Berry Gordy and Motown, where they talked about quality control and they said, quote, the artists were a means to an end in a way, end quote. And that's exactly what we're talking about how the downside is that it could limit creativity, but the upside is that it gives you the opportunity to get the best polished diamond from all of the creations that come from this studio. [00:12:24] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And man, there were quite a few, right? I mean, when you look through, I mean, the heydays, Smokey Robinson, the Miracles, Diana Ross, the Supremes, Four Tops, Marvin Gaye, coming into, you know, Michael Jackson, the Jackson 5, you know, think we've talked about in our previous discussions about hip hop, you know, like sort of the staying power, of different labels and, you know, and how you can kind of keep identifying talent and keep it coming. I mean, that's quite a breadth You know, of like musical accomplishment that they've got, that you could say that Berry Gordy identified over the years. So, you know, I would really, obviously I'd put him up against any other, identify any A& R, any, you know, music mogul in the history of the business, for sure. [00:13:05] Dan Runcie: I agree. And I think the other thing that's interesting too, is This taps back into the whole process and quality management things. Berry Gordy really wanted to help shift the sound and direction of this label because at the time, black music and music that was made by black artists was quite segmented where people didn't feel like it could reach beyond a certain audience. And he experienced some of this himself. One of the reasons that his record stores closed was because he was focused primarily on jazz music. At the time, even Black folks weren't really into jazz at that particular moment. So he just didn't have the market to be able to continue this. So I think that helps Chase Motower. He says, okay, I want the music that's able to be listened to by everyone. I want Black people to ride with it. I want white people. I want anyone in America to be able to ride with the same way that people would listen to the Beach Boys. And he had a few more interesting things that were part of this process. One, everyone had an etiquette coach. And these are things that we're teaching them, essentially, how you have black people essentially speak to white people. Granted, I think there's a lot of that that is problematic. That probably wouldn't fly into the same ways today, just given some of the language there. but then additionally, he also had white salesmen that were essentially the ones that were promoting the records in different areas, going to different radio stations. And he would go as far to insert in records that he's promoting to not even show the artist on the cover because he wanted the record to reach. And he didn't want people to necessarily immediately see or relate it to a black artist, which I thought was interesting, but lined up with a lot of these things. So, even though some of the choices clearly were problematic, it probably wouldn't fly at the same way today. That's how he was about process and wanting to essentially be able to sell this talent anywhere in the country. [00:15:01] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and it's especially remarkable when you sort think of the cultural context of, you know, of when this is all happening in the 60s. You know, I mean, this is a time of great polarization and social change and, you know, really like turmoil, in a lot of ways, disunity, but, what Berry Gordy created with Motown and sort of the Motown genre, which I think really like more than any label has become synonymous like a genre, you know, beyond just sort of like the name of label itself, you say Motown music, and you're talking about like a genre, as much as you're talking about a label, the fact that you'd be able to sort of create that it like in the 60s, even the late 60s, when things were really why we think we're polarized now. I mean, the late sixties, oh my gosh. Like what a testament to the sort of the sound that he created, which, you know, just like bridged all these divides and, you know, you obviously still go to any wedding, black, white, you know, at anything. And, you're gonna hear Motown all over the place. So I think that kind of goes back to what he created, you know, even at the time. being so accessible to so many different audiences and, you know, one of the things he told me, when I interviewed him, he said that, Martin Luther King came to see him, in Detroit, at the peak of the civil rights movement. And apparently, according to Gary Gordy, MLK said, he said, what I'm trying to do politically and intellectually, you're doing with your music. I love the feeling people get when they hear your music. And so maybe we can make a deal. And they made a deal to actually put out some of MLK's greatest speeches. They put out three albums on Motown and Gordy kind of summed it up by saying, if you do the right thing will come to you. So I thought that was such a cool. Little nugget that people don't necessarily realize. and, you know, I think people don't, think of Berry Gordy as like avant garde, you know, civil rights activist or anything, but, he kind of approached it in his own way, which was to make this music that could, you know, that could really bring people together. They could also get black culture, you know, into the mainstream us culture, at the same time. And, you know, I mean, we saw that, you know, decades later with hip hop, but. Berry Gordy, you know, he made that blueprint, you know, very, very, very early on. [00:17:03] Dan Runcie: It's a great story because I think it highlights the complexity and that people just aren't in these corners. And as you mentioned, Berry Gordy wasn't known for his civil rights activism. In many ways, people would often point to things that he may have shied away from, where I remember, especially in the 70s when you started to hear a bit more of a pacifist and things like that, there was a push and people wanted Motown to lead more into this and he necessarily wasn't as eager at the time and I remember even Marvin Gaye's What's Going On, one of the biggest records that was ever made. There was tension leading up to that because Gordy was like, wait, what is this? you want to do this? Like, what are we doing here? And then it eventually gets made. And then you see how I feel like every time that one of these publications has one of the greatest songs ever made, I'm sure it's come up on number one, or at least on several, one of these. So you see that, and you've seen other areas where he clearly has leaned into this, but I do think that his. Place in his role at that time, often highlighted some of that ongoing tension that we've seen from black leaders over the years about people want progress, but what's the best way to agree with this? And you date back to some of the more public debates between folks like Booker T. Washington and W. E. B. Dubois about what is the best way for black progress and group economics and things like that. And I feel like Berry Gordy clearly was on a Particular side of that, that not everyone may have agreed with, but he clearly still wanted to be able to help progress things in a particular way. So he's a very fascinating figure as we look at this progression, especially in the 20th century. [00:18:42] Zack Greenburg: Well, that's right. And, you know, I think there's a reason you see him put out MLK speeches. I don't, think he put up Malcolm X's speeches, you know, but that was just sort of his approach, right? He was more Martin than Malcolm. And, you know, obviously you could speak to the merits of either method, but, Berry Gordon definitely, had his preference there. [00:18:59] Dan Runcie: The other thing that I want to talk about, you mentioned it earlier, but the talent and the breadth of talent that was in this place is such a constraint and such a valuable time. It's one of those things where just imagine walking through on a, some day in, let's say 1964, you're just walking through Motown and all of the names that you could just see there making music on a Wednesday afternoon. It's crazy to think of the names and also how he found folks because. Look at Smokey Robinson and Smokey Robinson, the miracles essentially end up releasing shop around, which I do think ends up becoming the first true hit that, or the first, hit single that comes from Motown. He found that he found Smokey on a street corner performing almost, and in many ways, it feels similar to. What we see decades later with Sylvia Robinson driving around the New Jersey tri state area, finding hip hop artists for Sugar Hill Gang. This is how these early entrepreneurs did it. They were the talent development. They saw things and granted it was a much less crowded market. So the people that were pushing music onto folks had a little bit easier time breaking through, but it was still tough, especially at the time. And he was able to make it work in that way, which was, cool. [00:20:13] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, he actually did. And, you know, of course, like the one group that we haven't talked about too much yet is Jackson and sort of the way that, different groups were signed in those days, you know, they're all the stories about, well, you hear, you see somebody busking and you sign them and this and that. And, sort of some of the stories, though, if you talk to a lot of different people, you get, you talk to 3 people, you get 3 different stories. Right? So, I think for my book on MJ, I talked to. His dad, I talked to Berry Gordy and I talked to the guy who signed them to this little record company called Steel Town in Gary, Indiana. And they all had three different versions of, you know, how it went down, right? And so, there's that old saying, basically that the winners get to write history and, you know, Berry Gordy won. So, you know, whether his version is a hundred percent, accurate or not, that's kind of the version that, you know, we tend to hear I think his version is usually correct, but there's definitely some, you know, embellishment or some showmanship from time to time. So, you know, I think, for example, with the Jackson 5, Berry Gordy decided to put out, I think it was their first album as Diana Ross presents the Jackson 5 and, you know, she had this little thing where she's like, I discovered this group from Gary, Indiana and like blah, blah, blah, and that wasn't really how it happened at all. And it was really, you know, depending on who you ask, but I think what happened is Suzanne DePasse, who was one of Berry Gordy's lieutenants, had discovered them, and I think it was, there's another band who heard them, like sent them along to Suzanne DePasse that like, she kind of did the legwork for Berry Gordy. And it was like many times, many. Kind of connections later that Diana Ross, you know, became connected, to the group. but, you know, it's such a better story, right? Like Diana Ross has found these kids from, from the Midwest and, you know, bringing them out, onto Motown. So. I always think that's, kind of funny how, the stories end up getting presented and, you know, when you hear it from everybody else involved, I mean, and Diana Ross, of course, did become, really instrumental and especially Michael's life, as time went on, moved to LA and I think she, he actually lived with her for a little while while they were, you know, making the move and all this stuff, but, you know, it, didn't exactly start out that way. [00:22:18] Dan Runcie: Right. And the Jackson 5 is interesting because they, in many ways were the last group that came through in the heyday of Motown because the heyday we're really talking about is that 50 to 60s run that we've been talking about with a lot of the groups and the artists that we mentioned, especially young Marvin Gaye, young Stevie Wonder, Diana Ross and the Supremes. And then Jackson 5 comes along. But they come along towards the end of the decade. And just for some context setting, in 1968, Motown is doing 30 million in revenue. And they at one point had a 65% hit rate on the songs that they released in terms of actually being able to chart. So the highs were quite high and they were, killing it. The thing is, though, in the early 70s, this is where things start to shift a little bit, because at this point, Berry has his eyes set much bigger, and he wants to move beyond things in Detroit, because of course he was in the Hitsville, U.S.A. house, solely, after the riots that happened and there was some damage there, they ended up expanding things closer. they ended up expanding further in Detroit to just get a bigger size studio there as well. But then, he eventually wants to go to Hollywood so that he could get more into film. He wants to get into production for plays. He wants to bring these artists on the big screen. And it makes sense. We see why this is a huge medium. You saw how much, popular this talent is. And if you can get people to see them and buy into this, visual image that he's clearly curated, no different than we saw someone like Diddy decades later curating things, he wanted to do that. And I think that in many ways, this was one of those big challenges that any leader can have. Do you stay with the thing that's working really well? Or do you try to expand? And when you do expand, how do you find out? How do you make sure that you have the best talent around you? How do you make sure that you're well equipped? And I think that bowtie really started to strain because as things started to grow for the label, a lot of the artists started to feel like they were getting neglected because of these broader ambitions. And that in many ways, now we're dating 50 plus years ago to like 1972 timeframe. That's when a lot of ways was the beginning of the end, at least in terms of the Motown that a lot of people grew up with and knew. [00:24:41] Zack Greenburg: I think so for sure. And, you know, I think as an entrepreneur, you have to seek the next thing, right? I mean, you don't want to stagnate and you kind of have to take the risk and go for the next big thing and maybe you succeed and maybe you don't, and I think that's at least the way we've been conditioned to think. On the other hand, there could be an argument for like, we don't need to have this growth at all costs mindset as a society, you know, what's wrong with having a really awesome business that's just like constantly, you know, successful has happy employees, you know, that kind of thing. But, I guess that's, you know, this is, you know, Trapital not, you know, Trapsocialism, I dunno, we're talking within a certain realm of, you know, of economic, styles and systems. So that's what's gotta happen. And that's what Berry Gordy decided to do, you know, by moving everything to LA but we talked, a while ago about John McClain, and his role in kind of in, in the past few decades as an executive. He's somebody who rarely talks, but somebody interviewed him at some point. He said that he thought that moving to LA was, kind of the beginning of the end for Motown, because it, kind of changed Motown from being a trendsetter to being a trend follower. And, I think I agree with that. And, you know, that's not to say that there wasn't additional success, especially, you know, beyond the recorded music business that occurred. And that moving to LA kind of, you know, like supercharged some of that, but yeah, you know, I mean, I think when Motown was in the Motor City, in its namesake place, like, You know, it was sort of like, I don't say the only game in town cause there were other labels, but I think it was sort of, the main game in town and, being in a place that, you know, wasn't sort of the epicenter of the music business allowed it to have kind of its own unique style and not sort of be influenced as much by what else was going on. And, you know, don't forget in those days, it wasn't like everything was, you know, it wasn't like we were all tuning into the same social media channels. you know, we weren't even like really tuned into cable TV or anything like that, you know, there wasn't the same kind of like national culture that there is today that, you know, where trends just kind of like fly across in a second. And things did kind of take time to move from one place to the other. throughout the country. So, you know, there was like a certain regionalism to it that I think set Motown apart and, you know, maybe you lose a little bit, you know, once you're out in LA, but, you know, certainly around that time, you really start to see some of the artists who wanted more creative freedom, leaving, you know, some others pushing back, you know, I think even within, a few years of moving to LA, the Jackson 5, we're kind of, having some issues with Motown and in terms of, you know, can we make some of our own types of music? You know, do we really have to stick to quite the assembly line? So, yeah, I do think it was a mixed bag for Berry Gordy to head west. [00:27:20] Dan Runcie: And this is where things really started to struggle because a lot of what worked for Berry Gordy was so perfect for. The Hitsville USA West Grand Ave mentality of building everything there and not to say that he was only an early stage founder that couldn't necessarily progress. But I think a lot of the processes he had were more fit for that era. So naturally, you see the growing success of the Jackson 5 and Michael is no longer 9 years old. He is at this point now a full on teenager, but unfortunately, it just didn't quite. Progress in a few things, as you mentioned, you wanted more, they wanted more creative control. They also wanted to have a bit more ownership. There were disputes about royalties. And I remember reading something that said that the Jackson 5 had calculated how much they got. And it was only a 2.3% stake of how much revenue was either coming through or would be coming through in the future. And they see this and they're like, okay, well how can we see our opportunity to get more of that? So then they leave for Epic. And then you also saw a handful of artists at this point were already on their ways out and things were definitely starting to look a little bit more bleak because by the time you get to the end of the seventies, the beginning of 1980s, The music industry was already, granted things are cyclical, but they were starting to sour a bit on black music. This was the end of disco and people wanted nothing to do with that genre. And even though Motown wasn't disco necessarily, there was vibes of the types of artists they were trying to naturally capture in the 70s. So then that had all of black music taking a hit in a lot of ways and there were groups like the barge and others that I think they tried to make work. Obviously, I think Stevie Wonder was a mainstay during all this and that worked out really well for them, but he was really just 1 mainstay. You did have Marvin Gaye, but again, still, it just wasn't necessarily. The same, and I think that they definitely started to struggle even more at that particular moment. And even as early as the 80s, you start to see more of that narrative that honestly, you still hear today about recapturing that Motown magic or recapturing that Motown journey. People have been saying this now for 40 years. [00:29:40] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And I think one thing that people forget is that even though the Jackson 5 moved on to Epic, you know, and that's where MJ ended up, you know, Epic and CBS, and, that's where MJ ended up launching a solo career, people forget that Jermaine actually stayed at Motown initially.  He had married Berry Gordy's daughter and, you know, they had this whole wedding with like, you know, 150 white doves were released and, you know, they had this, you know, kind of fairytale situation. And apparently, Berry said to Jermaine, like, Hey, you can go with your brothers and stay with me, whatever you want. And, you know, knowing Berry, I think he maybe didn't put it that delicately or, you know, that was kind of a huge break from Motown because you know, he had really taken the Jackson 5 under his wing. They used to have, Gordy versus Jackson family, baseball games. Michael Jackson would play catcher. It was very So, you know, I think Tito was like the big power hitter, is what I heard. but yeah, for, you know, I mean, these were two families that were really intricately linked. And I think ultimately it kind of came down to, you know, there was some creative control issues, but, you know, Joe Jackson was, pretty controlling, Berry Gordy was pretty controlling and at some point, you know, it just, I think it became impossible for them to coexist. And so, Joe kind of guided them over to Epic to get that big deal, but, you know, Jermaine. It wasn't obvious that Michael was going to be, you know, by far the superstar of all the Jacksons. And, you know, Jermaine did seem at the time to be like the one who had the most promising solo career, or at least it was, you know, pretty close. And, you know, he never really found his niche is a solo act and eventually it would go on to get back every night with his brothers and go on tours and that sort of thing. [00:31:22] Dan Runcie: I think that's a good distinction because people will often point to and think about what are the big nine and then he drops off the wall. This isn't what happened. There's a pretty big difference between those few years. No difference than anyone where naturally there's a difference between a 15 year, but there were others that experienced. So many of the artists that ended up leaving at that particular year old artist and a 19 year old artist. You're a completely different person at that point. And that's exactly what we ended up seeing with Michael. So missed opportunity for sure missed opportunities that Motown had, we'll get to miss opportunities in a minute, but you often hear people talk about them not being able to keep Michael, but to your point, the Jackson 5 leaving Motown in 1975, 76, isn't the same as. Them leaving in 1970 time ended up having greater, success once they were able to have a bit of freedom after leaving Motown, which was a bit unfortunate because obviously, I think it would have been great to see them continue that success under Berry Gordy's umbrella and continue to see them grow. But not everyone is going to be Stevie Wonder. Not everyone is there to say, Hey, I'm with you until the end. And I'm going to be riding with you during this entire journey. It just doesn't work that way. People have careers. No different. You see them today where people see a bigger opportunity and the grass is greener. They want to take advantage of that, especially if they don't feel like they are being put in the best position to thrive. So in the 80s, Motown is now officially in its transition recovery mode, trying to recapture what was there and we see a few things happen. So they start leading in on debarge. And a lot of people, DeBarge did have a pretty big hit with Rhythm of the Night, but I do think that they tried to make the DeBarge family replicate some of this Jackson family, where you had El DeBarge, and you had all of these others, but it just didn't quite click, at least in a mainstream way to that perspective, but then you did have Lionel Richie, who did end up having a pretty big career, especially with everything he had done since the, Commodores and, but then you also had Berry Gordy's son that they were also trying to work into the mix, who performed under the name Rockwell, who had had that song, somebody's watching me that Michael had sung the hook on. So you had a few things there, but just didn't exactly click because again, it's stuck in two models. Berry wanted to continue to have complete control over it. And the artists just didn't want that anymore. I think that worked when you were literally giving artists. No giving artists in a region of the country like Detroit a platform and opportunity, but they had no other options. But now they had leverage. Now they could go talk to mca Now they could go talk to CBS Epic and some of these other labels. So Berry's mentality just didn't work as much. And then by 1988 is when we see him transition on from the label, at least as the CEO level. And then we start to see the new blood come in to run the record label. [00:34:30] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, I think it is important to note that, you know, although you could characterize the 80s as sort of like musical decline era for Motown, you know, in the way that many artists are entrepreneurs, like, seem to be in a period of delays over some decade or whatever, they actually get much richer during that period of malaise, because what they had built before was so good. And there's still kind of like, they're finally cashing in on it, whereas maybe they didn't cash in on it when it first happened. But like, enough of the sort of like older, wealthier decision makers who can pay them more are like, finally getting hip to the fact that, you know, this is a big deal. So, I would definitely think about Motown that context and that, you know, when Berry was able to sell, you know, a huge chunk, of the company kind of like step back from it, that was after like a a period of time when Motown was not as hot as it had been. But you had things going on, like Motown 25 in 1983, that special. Put together, where MJ came back and reunited, with his brothers and the whole Motown crew and he had, you know, all these other artists, but that was actually the first time I think that MJ moonwalked, you know, sort of in public, like you know, he sort of like the popular debut of the moonwalk and it just really kind of, Created, so much buzz around that, that then kind of rubbed off on Motown and didn't really matter whether he wasn't on Motown anymore, but it just kind of gave a little more shine to the label and gave it sort of like, a relevance, I think that helped kind of carry through to the end of the 80s and helped get Berry Gordy, this really big payday. So, I wouldn't discount like You know, I don't know the sort of like delayed reaction that sort of the half life of fame or whatever you want to call it. But, there were still some of these moments that were created, that kept paying dividends as the time went on. I think [00:36:13] Dan Runcie: That's a fair point because he also sold at this smart time when right as we're seeing in this current era that we're recording, it's a very hot time for music asset transactions as were the late 80s and early 90s too. That's when you saw Geffen do many of the deals that he had done and Gordy. Did the same where I believe he made 61 million from the sale, or at least his portion of the sale in 1988, which is huge. You didn't see people, especially black business owners that fully owned everything being able to cash out at that level. So that's a good point. I'm glad that you mentioned that. And with this is when we start to see the transition of leadership. And we start to see a few things that do ring true. Where the first person that takes over is Gerald Busby, who was leading black music at MCA at the time. And even though Motown had had a bit of its malaise in the 1980s, MCA did not, in many ways, it was seen as the leader in black music. And Bubsy was able to. Have quite a good amount of success there with all of the work that he had done. the thing is though, he had started to run into some issues because he was in this weird dynamic where this company, Polygram had owned part of the label, as did Boston Ventures, his private equity group, and Bubsy was at odds with the folks at Boston Ventures about. some creative control. And he had this quote where he says he'd rather quit Motown president than see the label become a cash cow for a huge corporation trafficking off of nostalgia. And that was a quote that was said back in the 90s just thinking about how. Similar, some of those quotes now come to today. And this was someone who was largely credited from helping to say blast black music from that disco era. But unfortunately, I think a lot of those tensions that he had had, at the time just made life a little bit more difficult for him at Motown. So he eventually we Left. And while he was there, he was able to at least get a few things under. Like he was the one that had brought in voice to men. He had Queen Latifah there. He had Johnny Gill, who was another artist at the time that was quite popular, but maybe hadn't necessarily lived on in the way. And his dreams were, he wanted to have Motown cafes, the same way you had hard rock cafes. He wanted to have the young acts going and touring around at different places to recreate that vibe. And this is something that we'll get into. I think we see time and time again, where these leaders have all these dreams and visions for what they see. Motown can be, but because of the powers that be because of other things, they just can't quite get there to make it happen. [00:38:51] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think that one of the things that set Motown apart early on, you know, as sets many startups apart early on, and many record companies are early on is that they were independent and they could do whatever they wanted. And, you know, Berry Gordy was, sort of like the unquestioned leader and, you know, things kind of, in the way that things kind of get done, let's say more efficiently, if not, more equitably in dictatorships, like he could just get shit done, move things around, have it happen immediately. And so when you started to have, you know, these corporate parents, parent companies, you know, you'd have to go through all these layers of approval to do anything. And, kind of like stop being able to be agile. and I think that's especially important in the music business when, you know, you have to. Not be reactive, but proactive, right? You have to be ahead of things. So, you know, if you're getting to a point where you're having to wait on approvals and things like that, you've already lost because you should have been out in front to begin with. [00:39:48] Dan Runcie: And this is something that I think plagued Motown time and time again, because Gordy didn't necessarily operate in this way. He had so many people that wanted to replicate what he did, but they didn't have the same parameters and the same leeway to make those decisions. As you mentioned, they're now working for corporations that now have their own vested interest. And to be frank, one of the tensions that we see often in music is that these brazen, bold leaders want to be able to take big swings and do things that are innovative and off the cuff. And these corporations are hard set pressed on efficiency. They don't want to see overspending. They don't want to see over commitments, or they want to be able to feel like this is being run in a strategic way. This is something that in the Interscope episode that we talked about, Jimmy Iveen struggled with this as well, even as recently as his tenure with Apple music. But this is one of those frequent tensions that happens with music executives. And we saw that continue with the person that replace Busby, which is Andre Harrell. We talked about him a bit in the Bad Boy episode, but Andre, of course, at this time was coming fresh off of Uptown Records where he was working in collaboration with MCA and he was able to build a little bit of his own fiefdom there where granted he still had people he had to answer to, but I think he had a pretty good relationship with the folks at MCA up until the end there. Then he goes to Motown and he sees this opportunity. And there's a few things that stick out about this because. As early as a year ago, he was starting to get rumored as to be the next person to then take over. But then he gets 250k as an initial announcement. He takes out this full page ad, New York Times. And then he has this ad that essentially says from Uptown to Motown, it's on. And it's him sitting in the back of the chair and you see a sweatshirt in the back. And people hated it. People grilled him. The way that they talked about him, the trades and even Russell Simmons and others coming in and giving him shit about it. He had pretty verbal flight fights with Clarence Avon, who was pretty powerful at the time. And Clarence even said he had swung on him at one particular point and was quite critical of him as well. There's this one quote that I think was really funny here, where this was from the Netflix documentary that was, The Black Godfather, which was about Clarence Avon. And, or actually, no, this is before this summer variety interview, but they talked about this as well. The doc, Clarence says, Andre and I didn't get along. And then he pointed to an image of the Motown boy band, 98 degrees. And Avon says, Andre wanted to send these white boys to Harlem to make them sound black. And I was like, you're out of your fucking mind. And it's a funny quote, because I do think that 98 degrees. Maybe didn't exactly have as many hits as they probably would have thought, but in Andre Harrell's defense, and sadly, but true, the mentality wasn't necessarily wrong because of the 90s, the most successful Motown act that you had was Boyz II Men, and we saw at the end of the decade that, what's that guy's name, the con artist that had the boy bands, Lou Pearlman, like, he literally modeled Backstreet Boys and NSYNC after How can I find white boys to men and make them see modern contemporary and make this happen? And that's how he was able to have success there. And that was before, what's his name? That was before Andre Harrell was really getting going. So he saw where things were going. But it just didn't click at the time. It just wasn't right. And obviously 90 degrees ends up having some decent success, but that's well after Andre Harrell had left the label. So he ended up leaving and the press was not kind to him. Literally headlines were. Andre Harrell gets fired from LA Times it's a type of headline that we probably don't see now when record label execs get fired in the same way. I think the industry is much more controlled in its PR sometimes to a fault, but it was very interesting to see that, come through. And another interesting quote from that, Lucian Grange had called the Andre Harrell at Motown relationship, an organ rejection. In terms of the relationship there. [00:43:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, no, I mean, and it's kind of interesting if you think about, you know, around that same time. What was going on in the music business, what would have been a great fit at Motown that didn't happen, would have been to sign Eminem, right? I mean, rather than try to do it with 98 degrees, if you really want to go and sort of like figure out what the kids are listening to, and do the thing where you have a white guy making black music, like. Holy shit. There's Eminem from Detroit, you know, doing his thing. But, you know, I think it took different kind of Andre to pull that one off. So, you know, in a way well played, you know, I mean, in a way it was like Andre was maybe Andre Harrell was taking some risks, but he wasn't taking quite enough. Like, he wasn't going far enough. He wasn't going way out enough on a limb. So, if you were really going to try to read that Motown, then that then go all the way at the same time, though, I would argue. I mean, if you look back, it's sort of like what worked with Motown and what did it, I think one of Motown's greatest attributes is also a limiting factor. And that's the thing we talked about before it, it's a label, but it's also a genre. And so if you have Motown making hip hop, it's like, wait a minute this isn't Motown. Like this isn't the genre of Motown. Like this is not the thing that I heard at my aunt's wedding, you know, this is something different. So, I think that they got kind of caught in between and I know that they've done all this stuff in hip hop over the years and, whatever, but it still doesn't feel like quite a fit because Motown, I mean that, you know, Motown was Motown, Motown wasn't hip hop and, you know, maybe if it had started getting into hip hop in the early days of hip hop. you know, it would have felt a little bit different about that, but, you know, hip hop is Def Jam, hip hop is is Roc-A-Fella hip hop is Bad Boy, and I just, you know, for all the efforts that Motown has made to get into hip hop, I think, it, has had a hard time, you know, fully sticking in the way that it would need to for Motown to replicate its, early success. [00:45:51] Dan Runcie: And one of the things that I think that a lot of these post Berry Gordy leaders struggled with was... As you mentioned, yeah, with Andre Harrell or others, there was the desire and opportunity to be able to do more, but the combination of the corporate structures in place that just didn't give them the same freedom that a Berry Gordy himself would have had. And then secondly. The business structure of how Motown itself as a company was set up didn't necessarily allow that because even things like radio or promotion and things like that, they still relied on other labels under the corporate umbrella, even to this day to get some of those things in place. So it really wasn't. Given the same freedom, even though their name, especially in the late 90s early two thousands was used in, especially back then it was the whole universal Republic Motown group or whatever the amalgamation was at the time. It really wasn't given the same freedom as some of those other record labels were. And I think we saw those challenges come in from time with some of the other leaders as well, because. Afterward, after, Harrell left, you had George Jackson who was there, felt like a bit more interim there for a couple of years. And then you had Kedar Mazenberg who was there late 90s early 2000. And that was a bit more than Neo soul vibe. You had India, Ari and a few others, but he has this quote that he gave to the independent, 2000 where he says, but we're not going to dominate the pop charts. Like we used to, how can we, there are too many other companies out there for that. So please don't compare it to the Motown of yesteryear. This is someone that is in the leadership role saying that exact quote. like How do you get past that? And then he talks again. I think they made a comparison to Def Jam where he said, you know, Def Jam, it took 10, 20 years to get to this established guidance, the way that you did with someone like a Lyor Cohen. And you essentially had that with Berry Gordy. But again, Lior was doing this before Def Jam ended up, you know, becoming under the whole Island Def Jam group and everything happened there. After that, you have Sylvia Roan, who was rising up the ranks herself. Still one of the most successful Black women in media and music right now. She's currently at Epic, but she had her time at Motown as well. And I'm going to get into her because I have something I want to say for missed opportunities there. And then you get more recently to the era of Ethiopia Habtamirian, who was there from 2011. Up until 2022, and she's 1 of those that I do feel like was put in a pretty hard spot because on 1 hand, she was able to essentially double the market share. Thanks in part to the partnership that she had made with hip hop through quality control to be able to help. them succeed And this is especially when the Migos are first starting to pop off, and then that transitions into the success of artists like Lil Yachty and Lil Baby and City Girls and others. But I think that also some of the overspending and things like that were quite critiqued. And especially from a PR perspective, the same way I was mentioning earlier when. Andre Harrell's challenges were bright front and center for the entire industry to read. Ethiopia's necessarily weren't in the same way. And even in some of the aspects of her leaving, the media had they called it a bit more reflective of, oh, Ethiopia has chosen to step down. When, yes, that's true, but there was also a pretty large severance package from Lucian and others at UMG. And again, I don't think she was necessarily given as much leadership either, because Motown was kind of, and still is kind of under capital, but now they've essentially moved it back. They had announced that she was solely the CEO back in 2021, but that was a pretty short lived. And to be honest, it felt like. Yeah. 1 of those announcements that the industry made in this, like, post George Floyd era to try to highlight and support black CEOs, which was great to see, but she's someone that's talented. You don't want to see her just become a tokenized person to have this. So, even though, like any CEO, I think there was things you could point out that she probably could have done differently. Still wasn't given the most leeway to begin with it. Now we're back in this point where what is Motown who's leading Motown. It's essentially the subsidiary under capital, but it's now a brand. And who knows where things are going to be. And it's quite unfortunate, but given everything that we've said up into this point, it also, isn't that surprising just given the dynamic. [00:50:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think, you know, like you mentioned the the partnership with quality control. I mean, I think. That was a smart way to get more involved in hip hop because that was a brand that did have roots in hip hop more that, kind of resonated. and so when you sort of like, build as a partnership and look at it that way, it seems a little more credible than like,you know, Motown is doing hip hop now. so it's too bad that, you know, things kind of turned out the way they did, but, it's an interesting asset, right? I mean, it's a brand that has a lot of value. But it's not exactly clear, you know, how to sort of monetize it. And I think with Motown right now, it's like, it's probably about more, than the music, right? Like that's maybe where most of the monetization opportunity would be, whether it's, you know, Motown branded, you know, I don't know, films and, you know, I don't know, products, whatever the case may be. It resonates more, I think, than it does, as a record label. And people don't care so much about record labels anymore. Like we've talked about this, you know, in prior episodes, but it's not the same. You're not going to put on your record on a record player and see that big Motown logo on it, you're having something pop up your ear. And there, there's no visual, like, you don't know whether it's on Motown or Def Jam or Universal or Sony or, and you don't probably don't care. Right. I mean, and I think as things have kind of blurred together, genres are blurring together, you know, different, labels are gobbling each other up over the years, you know, people have just kind of like lost track and, you know, sort of like the idea of a label just isn't as important anymore. So, I do think that it's. a valuable piece of IP and, you know, there's things to do with it still. But, you know, I think, Berry Gordy certainly like squeezed, you know, all he could out of it and, did a great job of sort of ultimately profiting off of what it was that he built. [00:52:04] Dan Runcie: Right. Because what you have right now is this brand where they do have Motown the musical, which I do think has been pretty successful, both in the US and in Europe and elsewhere that it's traveled. but that's it. I mean, quality control partnership doesn't exist in the same way since they've been now bought by hive. Hopefully, Ethiopia and those folks were able to at least retain some type of revenue for helping to set the framework to make that deal possible, but we'll see I, where I landed with this is that. The way to quote unquote, I don't want to say save Motown because that can just seems like such a blanket statement, but if you were trying to improve it from its current inevitable state, it would be finding a way to spin off the asset and the catalog from Universal and having it be in the hands of someone else who can make it work. The challenge is Universal isn't going to want to give that asset up. That's one of their most valuable back catalogs that they have. So. I was thinking through it in my mind, the same way that you have someone like a Tyler Perry, who are these modern moguls that have a bit of that Berry Gordy vibe to them. The way that Tyler Perry is, we'll see whether or not he ends up buying BET, but could that same mentality be applied to a record label? And then with that, you're able to then build up your own promotion. You're able to build up your own talent, and then you take things in a slightly different way. I still don't think that guarantees success, but at least you shake things up in a particular way and you still give it that black ownership mentality. You give it a bit more of that independence and the autonomy and you could potentially see what happens because. We all know what the continued fate is as a legacy entity of a catalog holder that it would be under the UMG umbrella. [00:53:50] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, a hundred percent. Totally agree. [00:53:52] Dan Runcie: And with that, I think it would be a good time to dig into some of these categories here. So what do you think is the biggest, this will may be obvious, but what do you think is the biggest signing that they've done or that Motown ever did? [00:54:04] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think I'd go with the Jackson 5 I mean, you know, although Motown did not ultimately profit off of MJ's solo career, in the way that it would have if it had retained him for a solo career, Motown did profit off of the association as he became the biggest musical star, but basically entertainer of any kind in the world. and, you know, going back to the Motown 25 moment, you know, other kinds of associations. So I would say like good process. Not really a bad outcome, but like signing the Jackson 5 could have been the path to also signing Michael Jackson as a solo artist. And then, you know, just because that didn't work out in the end, does it mean that that wasn't a huge signing for them? [00:54:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I was going to say Jackson 5 or Stevie Wonder, which is the one that I had and I say him because of the longevity because even when times were rough, Stevie Wonder still had arguably his best decade in the 70s But, he had a number of them that were there, especially in the seventies. I think that was his strongest run and he stayed through. And I think that in a lot of ways helped bridge the gap during some of those low moments when other artists did come and went. Did come and go. So that was the one I had there. What do you have as the best business move? [00:55:18] Zack Greenburg: Well, okay. This is something we haven't talked about and maybe we should talk about it but more, but here we are, we'll talk about it more now. I think it was Berry Gordy setting up, his publishing company. So, I mean, maybe that's cheating a little bit because it was outside of, Motown itself but of He set up Joe bet, publishing, you know, pretty early on. And he didn't realize, you know, his big payday for it until later 1997, but he sold it for 132 million for just for half of it. so the EMI, and then he sold another 30% for I think 109 million. And then he sold the rest of it for, something like 80 million in, what was that? It was like 2004. So, you know, we're talking like over a quarter billion dollars and that's not inflation adjusted. you know, for the publishing and that, you know, that dwarfed whatever he got for Motown itself. So, and, you know, think about if he held onto it until, the recent publishing Bonanza, I mean, I mean, it could have been close to a billion dollar catalog, right? I mean, you know, there's nothing, really like it out there. So. He was always very smart about ownership and I think Michael Jackson knew that and, you know, studied him as a kid growing up. And that's kind of what convinced Michael to want to own his own work, and also in the Beatles work, which then became the basis of Sony ATV. And that was another massive catalog. So, yeah, I think the publishing side of it definitely gets overlooked and, you know, was ultimately the most, financially valuable part. But, even though it was sort of a separate. Company, you know, I would argue it, for sure it wouldn't have happened without Motown happening. [00:56:51] Dan Runcie: That's a great one. And I'm glad you mentioned that. Cause definitely could get overlooked and doesn't get talked enough about in this whole business. I think publishing in general is something that people don't understand. And so they just don't, dig into it, but he wrote it. I mean, he owned everything. And obviously when you own the value. When you own something that valuable, it has its assets. And I think why publishing continues to be so valuable in the industry is because I think that the origins of the industry have always had this thought of, well, you could get anyone to go sing the song, but it takes a true genius to write the actual underlying product. And I think we've seen that continue time and time again. So that worked out in his favor. The one thing that I'll say is on the production side, this is one of the specific things he did that I did think just helped from a, output perspective, there used to be a rule at the time where a record label could only have, whether it was like one song shared in a particular time period with the radio station. So he was the one that created all these sub labels, whether it was Tamla records or others that were all still, labels that he owned, but he would then release them time and time again and promote those. So it was a different record label that was pushing things onto the consumer, but it was still that Motown vibe. It was still everything that was coming from Hitsville and that helped them just continue to gain and grow effectively and reach the audience. I think as well, combining that with how they were able to maximize derivative work. We talked about this a little bit with the bad boy episode, but so many ways that did he was huge on having the part one and part two of songs or having the remixes or getting the whole bad boy through on this song that was already successful, very Gordy was doing that stuff 3040 years earlier and was able to reap the rewards for that. So I put that as one of the business moves we haven't talked about that I do think is up there for them. That's a really good one. I like that. Yeah. dark horse. Do you have one that doesn't get talked about enough? [00:58:51] Zack Greenburg: Ooh, I'd probably say the publishing again, but, Yeah, I think it applies because you barely hear about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's such a big deal that I kind of have a hard time not, but you know, I guess, to switch things up, I mean, I would talk about maybe, I mean, you could say Motown 25 certainly, was something that Motown produced. but I mean, I'm almost say. you know, I think like the whiz is an interesting one.  Not because it was that necessarily profitable, but because it, you know, it represented Motown's expansion into film and, you know, like, I don't know what you can do with a cast, of musicians. I mean, Diana Ross and Michael Jackson were in there, obviously. that's like a seminal film and I think it was important, you know, culturally, to sort of like an immeasurable extent, you know, even if it wasn't like the most profitable film ever made. It was like, very expensive to make it all that. But yeah, I would kind of look at that as something that was important, just for what it was and not necessarily for what it made. [01:00:01] Dan Runcie: That's a good one. I was thinking about mentioning that earlier, but the timing just didn't work. So I'm glad you mentioned that here. Dark horse, I talked about them a little bit, but I do think the success of Boyz II Men in the 90s for Motown gets overlooked. This was the biggest group in the world at one point. I mean, they were huge. They were everywhere. And they were so commercially successful. They made music for everyone. And I know sometimes people may laugh at it and call it middle school music sometimes, but I think they were. Just able to hit the right note, the right time for what it is. I feel like they really, of any group that has really come since the, I'd say my lifetime of actually being a music consumer, they were the ones that felt the closest to, okay, this feels like a modern continuation of Motown. If you were to say, okay, what does the success of Motown look like, but in a 90s package? It would be Boys II men. They actually had them in an era where it was competitive, and they were quite successful. Unfortunately, it didn't last forever, but I mean, they lasted arguably longer in popularity than a lot of the boy bands and others that came after them, in just in terms of how long that their run was. And, you know, some of those groups may have been more commercially successful, but it's good to see them still thriving. And the fact that they've been in Vegas, they have a good living. They're able to just continue to essentially succeed at this residency model that others have caught on to themselves and have made plenty of money with, I think that they worked out pretty well for Motown. [01:01:32] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And I think they really fit with the Motown ethos, even if it's not like the same genre exactly as, what Motown was before, it's like, you could hear it at your aunt's wedding, right? I mean, you can hear it at your cousin's wedding, whatever. I don't know why I say aunt, like everybody's aunt is getting worse or something or like, it's only recently getting great, but, whosoever wedding it is, you know, you could hear Motown, you could hear Boyz II Men, and I think, you know, that's kind of the continuation of the identity. I think that's a really good point. [01:01:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, so for missed opportunity, I want to go first with this one. And this is what I was holding out on. I was going to share it in the Sylvia Roan focus, but I want to share it now. So in 2007, that's when Sylvia Roan starts have, she's the head of Motown just from a timeline perspective, she's head of Motown at this point. She starts having the conversations with Drake and there was actually some type of deal in place. And this was Drake right around that comeback season era. So far gone, wasn't there. And according to Drake, Drake says that she says that he didn't quite have enough to be able to, you know, make it as a true superstar. He, of course, takes light to that he ends up working with Cash Money and then ends up working with, you know, Republic and thereafter. But this has to be a huge sliding doors moment because he has held it against where he calls Sylvia out on the song. Say what's real the opening track of so far gone. He ended up apologizing because he said some unkind words about her. So he didn't apologize necessarily for the ethos behind what he said, but he apologized for his word choice. He brings it up again, two years later at like some type of award show. And then, you know, he has that song, we made it from the mixtape where he's like a 2007. I was in the lobby at Uptown or whatever. So he goes back to it almost in the same way that, you know, Jordan would go back to being cut on his freshman year, or Kobe is listing all the people that were drafted ahead of him. And then when you think about that in the context of the Michael Jackson, Jackson 5 thing, not working out. Motown almost has this like Portland Trailblazers history where I feel like not getting Michael Jackson and making that work was almost like them drafting Sam Bowie ahead of Michael Jordan 1984 draft. And then years later, them not signing Drake when he was there and wanting to come through is like drafting Greg Oden over Kevin Durant if you're the Portland Trailblazers. And can you imagine how much different Motown's fate would be the past? 14, 15 years, if they had signed Drake, we would be having a very different conversation today. [01:04:07] Zack Greenburg: That's a really great, connection. And I hadn't really thought about it that way. Yeah, absolutely, and you know, for mine, the missed opportunity was, MJ as well. So, you know, you kind of connect it with that through line, I also wonder if like Jermaine was something of a missed opportunity. I guess he was given kind of every opportunity, every advantage you could have had. But, you know, he had the name recognition, but it used to really connect as a solo artist. I mean, I wonder if, they'd maybe given him more creative freedom, maybe given him less creative freedom. I don't know that he could have really been the standout solo artist. But then again, I guess, you know, looking back in the fullness of time, you know, he was never going to be the biggest Jackson brother. So, you know, man, I mean, I know Michael and Berry had a really good relationship. and I think that Michael's dad and Berry you know, didn't necessarily. So. If that had been a little different, they could have stayed. and maybe you would have seen Michael, you know, coming out of the whiz, you know, not profitable movie into making some very profitable records for Motown. But, you know, then again, I mean, and I think that's the big question, right? Like Michael Jackson's records did so well because he was able to be Michael Jackson. Would Berry have sort of like prevented him from taking some of these weird risks? Like, I mean, Thriller is a weird, like, campy song, you know? and it does not fit anything in in the Motown vibe. Do you think Berry Gordy would have been okay with this sort of like, like, you know, very bizarre music video, like dead people walking around. I mean, it's not really in his, assembly line, you know, there are no zombies in the assembly line, for Motown. so who knows how it would have turned out, if MJ had stayed, but, you know, I, I think one way or the other, as with all the Motown artists, right? These are all creative people and they were able to make their own, sort of, you know, put their own stamp on the world. And I think MJ would have been able to do that if he'd stayed too. [01:05:55] Dan Runcie: And I think the same could be said about Drake as well with that timing too, of course, we're talking about now in this context of Drake, in many ways, becoming the most commercially successful artist of the past 14, 15 years. I know you can say Taylor and a few others, but one of. But what would that look like on Motown? We don't know necessarily. Would they have tried to turn him into Trey Songz, and then he's following that path, or something like that, which is something that Drake has spoken to himself. There's clearly something about that continuity of the Cortez Bryan, and then Wayne and Young Money, and being able to have that ecosystem working together, combined with the, with Baby and Slim, combined with the folks at Republic. There is clearly an energy there. And then, you know, if Drake was on a label that didn't even have its own promotion or its own tools, how could that have worked out for him? So some of these hypotheticals don't always necessarily line up, still missed opportunities, but don't necessarily always line up. [01:06:55] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think that cash money gave Drake An edge that he would not have had at Motown, you know, and simply by having that side of the hip hop world, you know, kind of cosigning him, I think it evened out, some of his tendencies in a way that, made him a more well rounded artist. [01:07:13] Dan Runcie: Agreed. before we get to the last piece about who won the most, who lost the most, do you think that we would ever get Motown truly on the big screen? And part of me isn't sure because obviously Dreamgirls, which people have debated whether that's loosely veiled on Motown or not, I probably lead more to yes than not. Berry Gordy hated it. And so many people that were associated with it hated it because of how he was presented. And if that's the reaction to Dreamgirls. Then what would the final output be of something that Berry Gordy did give his blessing on, especially if you want to be able to tell a story as nuanced as the one that we've been talking about now? [01:07:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, no, I don't think, he would ever greenlight anything that was like, you know, completely 100% accurate, even if it didn't reflect so well on him. But, you know, then again, I mean, you know, his story, it might not be a hundred percent the real story, but it's a great story, you know, so, I guess you could kind of look at it anyway. I don't know. What do you think? [01:08:17] Dan Runcie: It would be a great story and I think that in the right hands, it would be really magical and unique to see something. So many of we've seen so many biopics now done about figures who have had complex histories. And there's always some things that have been debated and nuanced with it as well. I do think that for instance, I think that Elton John Rocketman one was one that I actually thought was better than most people give it credit for. And I think it was honestly better than like Elvis, the more recent movie that had made a ton of money. But I see those, I'm like, okay, they found ways to tell these things. I don't know if Berry Gordy himself, getting back to just him being, wanting to be in control, wanting to have everything be to a certainty. How much creative control is he going to want to offer in that way? Granted, he's now 93 years old. I don't know if I'm seeing him rolling up the sleeves, getting in the weeds in the same way, but it might be a while until we actually see something grace the screen like that. [01:09:13] Zack Greenburg: I think so, too. Just wait for the Baz Luhrmann version. It's coming. [01:09:19] Dan Runcie: Oh, goodness. who do you think won the most out of Motown? This is probably easier. Yeah, I think there's [01:09:26] Zack Greenburg: no way to argue anything other than Berry Gordy, you know, you could make an argument for MJ. I mean, you could say that, he learned so much, that he then took out of this environment where he was really not able to earn that much money. And then, you know, applied it in his own way, applied the lessons, not only to the music, but to the music asset buying, which was, you know, for him, I think, just as lucrative as the music itself. I mean, that's all stuff he got from Berry Gordy, he got from Motown. So, you know, you could make an argument for MJ. I mean, he earned by my calculations, and, you know, I have to go back and look at the exact number, but it was over a billion dollars in his lifetime. And I think it's over 2 billion dollars since he died. And I think that's not even adjusted for inflation. So, you know, I mean, Berry Gordy, made hundreds of millions, you know, MJ made billions. Would he have done it if he hadn't been in Motown? I don't know, but, let's say, I think he always had the talent. but, you know, the business acumen, I think he really picked up in, to a large part from, Berry Gordy, of course, he had some negative business tendencies as well. and some other stuff, of course, that we could have a whole other episode on, but, I think at the end of the day, yeah, he learned a a lot from Berry but, you know, you still got to say Berry is the clear winner from Montana. [01:10:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I agree. Nothing else to add there. I think that was the right take. It's Berry but there's a case to be made for Michael. Here's a new one. who do you think lost the most? [01:10:43] Zack Greenburg: Oooh Jermaine. Yeah, Jermaine. Man, you know, I mean. I don't know, like, why didn't it work? Can we go back and do a whole episode on that? I mean, he had the fandom, the infrastructure, he had like an international fan base. I mean, I guess, I guess it's a matter of, you know, it's always the risk when you have somebody who's part of a really big group and they go out on their own and it just doesn't, you know, have quite the same resonance, but, you know, I mean, he put everything, on Motown, you know, both in his personal life and in his, music career. And it just didn't really quite turn out, I think like anybody had hoped. So. I'll go with Jermaine. [01:11:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think it's fair because even if you look at Janet, right? It's like she may not have had the career that Michael had, but it proved that there was an appetite for other Jacksons, like, people wanted to see this come through, and did he put it, did he bet on the wrong horse? That might be strong, but it wouldn't be a wrong takeaway, I would say, mine is on the executive side. I could be blanket and say every executive that led Motown after Berry Gordy, because I just don't think they were positioned the best for success. But I do think specifically Andre Harrell, because I think if you go back to that era, he was big time. He wasn't even in the. I mean, even beyond just music, because of everything he had when he had that Uptown and MCA deal, and he had that Strictly Business, Strictly Business movie and others, they were elevating him the same way that they were looking at this renaissance of black talent and art, whether you looked at folks like Spike Lee, especially in the post, he's got to have it and do the right thing era, he was in that era. He was in that frame. And I think that everything. Yeah. In a lot of ways, went downhill, at least from a public perception of, you know, global influence. Granted, I know he's still at Harrell Records after he ended up working with Diddy again, but it was more so one of these more journeyman roles of, you know, I have this small thing that can make it work instead of being on a path to being one of the most successful black entertainment moguls from the US. And I think that before Motown and before everything for him. A lot of the challenges and dirty laundry and things that, you know, he obviously was criticized for inefficiency as others were. But I think that there would have been an opportunity for him to be able to realize more of that potential. And it kind of makes me think of just not just categorizing him, but the same way that we look at sports where there's certain franchises that just haven't been able to Get beyond a certain point. I look at the New York Nixon granted up until this point, this year, it's been a pretty tumultuous past 20 years, especially in that post, you know, Riley, Jeff Van Gundy, 90s era. I don't think all the coaches they had were bad, but you have this broader infrastructure with the owner and everything else going on. Like, I don't care if you had, you actually did have Phil Jackson come through. I don't care if you had Steve Curran, Greg Popovich come through. I think they would have struggled as well. And I think that some of that exists with Motown, but just given the structure, you have someone talented like Harrell. And I think a lot of the image got put. On him as someone that couldn't cut it as opposed to this broader structure, that made it tough to succeed. [01:13:58] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think that's a really fair point. And, you know, I think that was sort of the moment when it was like, is Andre going to sort of like, continue staying ahead of his mentor, Puffy or not. And, you know, obviously he did not, and then he went from being the boss to the employee again, you know, not a bad situation, to be in working for Puffy necessarily. I mean, I guess it could be a little tough to work for Puffy sometimes is he referred, but in this case, you know, yeah, he ended up being surpassed by his own. But his own protege, shall we say, which, you know, I guess is also a mark of good mentorship to some level, but he did seem like he got kind of stymied, or hit a ceiling at some point. [01:14:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. All right. Before we wrap things up on Motown, anything else that we didn't cover that you wanted to talk through about Motown? [01:14:40] Zack Greenburg: I think that does it. I think, you know, well, I think we could have like five more episodes, but you know, for the purposes of, the listenership, you know, probably we covered it pretty darn thoroughly, I'd say. [01:14:49] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Yeah, and I think this is good. All right. Well, before we wrap things up with this episode, I know you have some new stuff that you've been working on.  So tell us about the JayZ index I know this is something you've been working on. We talked about it, a little while ago when you were brainstorming the idea, but it's come to life and you shared it this week. So tell us about it. [01:15:06] Zack Greenburg: That's right. So, you know, back in the day, I was a personal finance reporter at Forbes, and that was even before I, you know, started writing about hip hop and the entertainment business and doing biographies of Jay Z and what have you. And so, when I was a personal finance writer, I used to do these things we called money manager profiles. And basically you just find somebody who managed private assets in an interesting way. Maybe it was like an endowment or something, and you would kind of like try to put together, something that was representative that, you know, retail investors could buy. And so it occurred to me the other day, like, you could do that with Jay Z. He has his hands and, you know, so many different pies at this point, so many of the companies that he's been involved with are now tied to, publicly traded companies. And, you could actually create like a Jay Z Index. So I kinda, I just sort of like started as a thought experiment. and then I dug a little bit deeper and I came up with 11 different stocks and, you know, I did allocations based on sort of what his, percentage of his overall net worth they represent. And, you know, so it goes from, you know, something as small as luxury vehicles, 2%. I put Rolls Royce, which is publicly traded, which makes jet engines in addition to cars, because Jay Z has, you know, a private jet in addition to his, automobile collection, you know, all the way up to some of the companies that he does business with, whether it's, you know, live nation and the rock nation partnership, LVMH, which is now, you know, his partner on Armand de Brignac, there's a whole bunch of other stuff in there. So I put it out on my sub stack, which you can find at Zonglong.com. It'll take you right to the thing and to check it out. But, yeah, I just, you know, we always have put the caveats of like, investing involves risk. This is not a solicitation to buy securities or whatever, but, you know, I just thought it was really fun exercises. I talked about it like, it's not the same, obviously you can't create Jay Z's portfolio. a hundred percent, because that's the point. That's why a billionaire cause he does these things. He seeks them out. He attaches his name to it and they become more valuable. But I like to call it, you know, like you could build a Lego model of the empire state building, you can do that equivalent, with this portfolio. And, so actually I created a Google Finance watch list, and I'm going to track it and see how the JayZ index performs against SOP and some other benchmarks. And, you know, maybe we can talk about it again in six months or something. [01:17:19] Dan Runcie: That's awesome. So for all the people out there that would rather take a dinner with Jay Z instead of getting 50, 000, maybe we should check out this index. Then you can see how it compares. And maybe your money would actually be better off investing how Jay Z invests instead of passing up 50, 000 for the chance to talk to them. [01:17:36] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, what's his line at, I'm trying to give you a million dollars worth of game for 9.99 so trying to give you a billion dollars worth of game with the Jay-Z Index. So check it out. [01:17:46] Dan Runcie: Nice. And yeah, we'll link to it in the show notes for sure. Very good. Very good stuff, man. Always a pleasure. [01:17:52] Zack Greenburg: All right, Dan, as always, have a good one. [01:17:54] Dan Runcie: You too. Take care. All right. [01:17:56] Dan Runcie Audio Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast. Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Few record labels have left their stamp on the industry quite like Motown. 



This assembly line churned out hit song after hit song in the ‘60s and early ‘70s. With a who’s-who roster — Marin Gaye, The Jackson 5, Diana Ross, and Stevie Wonder, among others — The Hitsville U.S.A. sign Gordy put on Motown’s front door became warranted. 


This episode is the story of Motown Records — it’s formula for success, what led to its decline, and where it stands today under Universal. I’m joined by friend of the pod, Zack O’Malley Greenburg. Here’s what we covered in this episode:


0:38 Berry Gordy’s origin story

8:08 Motown museum in Detroit

9:20 Cultivating a culture of creativity

13:05 Shifting the sound of Black music

20:12 Motown’s knack for discovering talent 

34:29 The beginning of the decline

36:12 80’s decade of transition

39:48 Post-Gordy struggles

45:51 Motown’s uncertainty today

53:59 Best signing?

55:16 Best business move?

568:45 Dark horse move?

1:01:58 Biggest missed opportunity?

1:07:13 Motown big-screen picture

1:09:22 Berry Gordy won big

1:10:41 Who lost the most?

1:14:56 Zack’s Jay Z index


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog

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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Zack Greenburg: Berry Gordy created with Motown and sort of the Motown genre, which I think really like more than any label has become synonymous beyond just sort of like the name of label itself, you say Motown music, and a testament to the sound that he created,

[00:00:13] Dan Runcie Audio Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:38] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is a deep dive into the one and only legendary Motown records. At its peak, Motown was the most successful black business in the country. It peaked at 30 million dollars of revenue in 1968 and Barry Gordy and his team assembled a sound. a unique genre of music that produced hit after hit after hit and Hitsville USA lived up to its promise.

So in this episode, we take you through the origins of how Motown came to be. What are some of the business principles and strategies that worked in its favor? And then what are some of the challenges that Motown faced too? It's now been 50 years since the peak of Motown. And this record label has had plenty of ups and downs and plenty of journeys that we went deep on in this episode. And I'm joined by Zach Greenburg He is a biographer of Jay Z and several others, and he also wrote about Michael Jackson. And in that he talked about Michael Jackson's time with Motown, especially in the Jackson 5. So we had a lot of fun in this one. So come take a trip down memory lane with us. Here's our episode on Motown.

[00:01:42] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're back with another case study style episode, and we're going deep into Hitsville, USA. Motown, baby. Let's do this, Zack, I'm excited for this one.

[00:01:53] Zack Greenburg: Thanks for having me as always.

[00:01:55] Dan Runcie: Berry Gordy is so fascinating because At one point, this was the most successful black business. They're the most successful black entrepreneur in the country invented a genre.

And it's so hard to be able to do that. And that legacy still lives on today. We know so many record labels that have taken inspiration from what Berry Gordy built with Motown records, but let's start from the beginning. What inspired Berry Gordy to even want to get involved with music in the first place?

[00:02:23] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. So, you know, Berry Gordy, and his family were in the Detroit area, you know, a bunch of serial entrepreneurs, get a record shop early on, but he was actually like semi professional boxer coming up. And, think one thing led to another and you just kind of saw that, you know, there was a market that was not being served in music.

you know, certainly like the business was concentrated, on the coast and particularly in New York at that time, you know, eventually more in LA, but. you know, there was some stuff going on in Chicago. there was some regional acts, regional labels, things like that. But, you know, I think he just basically saw an opportunity, to start something.

And, you know, sort of in the way that if you look at, Richard Branson or Puffy or, you know, what are those types of entrepreneurs? It's almost It doesn't really matter what they get into. They find a way to make it work. and they're just always on the lookout for a new sector. That's, kind of, you know, right for some creative destruction, know, and some refreshing or some freshening, some revising, I don't know, whatever you would call it.

And, you know, in the case of Berry Gordy. Kind of amazingly, when you think about music over the past half century, he looked around and he thought, well, this is actually, this is a sector that is very promising amongst all the sectors that I could possibly get into. So, that's how Motown came to pass.

[00:03:36] Dan Runcie: That point about whether it's Diddy, Branson, Gordy, and I think a lot of the tech CEOs fall in this category as well. You're going to put them in any generation. And I do think that these people would have found a way to make things work. And that's the same point you're making, right? He saw an opportunity to music, but let's say he came 30 years later.

It could have been another aspect. Let's say he came today, probably could have been trying to do something in AI or even figure it out, how to make AI, be transformative with his music. And I think a lot of his work, whether you think about how he built derivative work or how he had this process with artists that we'll get into so much of it taps into, okay, here's an opportunity to optimize things.

Here's how we can make things work. And music just happened to be the format. He chose it.

[00:04:21] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And even, you know, when you think about it, he got started sort of mid century 30 years later, he was looking into other things, getting involved in film and TV. And You know, moving the business out West, but, you know, we'll get there eventually, but, he certainly did, you know, find other ways to extend the Motown brand as time went on.

[00:04:37] Dan Runcie: So he starts off, he has this record business and things go okay with that. specifically talking about the store. And that was a lot of it was connected a bit more from the family perspective, but then he ends up getting the job at Ford specifically working with that Lincoln mercury plant. And that's when he was only there for 2 years, but he then sees how the process works and the whole concept of Ford is, which is that assembly line process that Henry Ford has been famous for.

He sees that and then he taps back into his opportunities with music and he's like, okay. Okay, there's an opportunity to do the same with music. So he sees this assembly line, essentially have all these parts go through the inputs. And then the output, you get this car, he wanted to be able to pull some kid off the street, bring them into the Motown and bring them into this record label facility.

And then outcomes a star. And he felt like he had the ability to be able to create that type of dynamic. And it took some time to get there, but that's essentially what he did. And a lot of the creations of what we saw from Hitsville USA was that exactly.

[00:05:48] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And, he'll tell you that, I've interviewed him a couple of times. Once for Forbes, once for my book, Michael Jackson Inc, where he talked a lot about that. And, you know, he really has a formula, for making a hit song. And, you know, it's sort of like the song has to have a clear beginning, middle at an end. The chorus has to have a sort of grand arc that summarizes the song every time it happens.

And then there's a sort of like grand finale bridge ending thing that, brings it all together, always at the end you hear the artist shout out the song's name almost, you know, invariably one last time and you know, that's like pure marketing, right? And you think about it in those days, this great songs on, you're hearing it, but like, you know, maybe you're in the car, it's on the radio, maybe you're artist and a record player.

It's not popping up on your phone. So you know what it's called when you hear Michael Jackson shout out, I want you back at the end and I want you back. what you're going to go out and buy, you know what, you're going to call in, you know, to the radio station and ask them to play. So, it's very calculated, it really works and it's proven and, you know, if it sort of seems like, gosh. You know, this is like a cliche. This is obvious. I think part of it is because he helped create this cliche, obvious thing, right? I mean, things become cliche or obvious because they're smart or necessary most of the time.

So, you know, at some point it was novel and, you know, very corny, I think was part of, making that whole song structure novel. And, you know, really. When you look at how he executed it, you know, I think a modern day analog, we talked about this, you know, before on our bad boy episode, but so, you know, his role was very much like the Puffy role, or at least the early Puffy role in production. So, you know, he had a hand in songwriting and production, but, you know, mostly he figured out who he wanted to have producing his labels, songs and sort of who he wanted to be in charge of authoring that certain type of sound.

So for Berry Gordy, it was a handful of, producers called the corporation, just like Puffy had the Hitmen. And, you know, then he would kind of come in and do his own little thing on top when he thought it was necessary. But, you know, in a way it kind of adds that whole assembly line aspect, right? Where, you know, that there's going to be a certain level of quality, there's going to be like a distinctive sound, whether it's a bad boy or Motown, or, you know, even going back to, you know, what a Ford car was, you know, in those days you had kind of an ideology to get.

And I think that's one of the things that really set Motown apart.

[00:08:08] Dan Runcie: Exactly. And I think with that too, you have him going through the process of starting this. So this record label started with an 800 with 800. That's what he had initially. And he uses that to then start Hitsville USA. So that's the location on Grand Ave in Detroit.

Have you been to this museum by the way?

[00:08:30] Zack Greenburg: I did. We did a special event there. One time we had the Forbes 30 under 30, Summit and we did this like, special, like one off private interview where I went there with Quavo and we sat in Motown studios, you know, where Michael Jackson and all them had recorded. and we did a little like video discussion on the state of the music business, I think it's floating around the internet somewhere, but, it's a really cool building. I mean, I think what strikes. Me the most, you know, like the first time I went in is like the fact that just a house.

I mean, it really just looks like a house. the rooms are sort of like room size, you know, it's not some sprawling like, you know, I don't know, institutional type place like a lot of modern, recording studios, you know, it's just a converted house but you know, you kind of walk through each room and it's museum and everything now, so you can kind of get a feel for it. It's very different from the modern day glitz and glamour of the record business for sure.

[00:09:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah, been there twice. it was really cool because just like you said, you feel like you're actually in a home and that's the vibe that the studio gives you. And I felt like the people that were the tour guides as well, they clearly knew their history in a way where it should sound obvious, but that could obviously be hit or miss with museum sometimes.

So I felt like that piece of it was good. And it ties back to a few things that tap into the culture that it is. Gordy wanted to create that. I think make it work. He lived upstairs. Studio is downstairs. So he has everything there and he wanted to make this somewhere that creativity could spawn at any particular moment.

So he wanted to create a 24/7. Set up where he had made sure the vending machines were always stocked. So people could stay there year, you know, day in day out. If creativity comes to you at 3 p. m. or 3 a. m. you can go right there and do what you have to do. And you could keep things moving there internally.

And this is one of the things that I do think worked really well for them because. Although I think the music industry has gotten away from this, there was this era where the culture and the vibe that you could create from a label and all that continuity really helped things. So when you saw how deliberate he was from an assembly line perspective was essentially keeping his product in place and keeping all the materials in place so that it can produce outputs at any given moments to just increase the likelihood that you could have hits coming time and time again.

[00:10:49] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I mean, he certainly spoke a lot about, quality control, which is, it's kind of funny, you know, given the eventual QC relationship, but, you know, I think that's a really big part of it. And when you're that hands on and, you know, in some cases you could say micromanaging, but it does enable you to really have a unified.

We can also get into this, fact that at some point it can become a bit of a creative constraint for artists as they mature.

[00:11:14] Dan Runcie: Right, because with quality control, there was someone on the team that listened to everything that came through Motown and they essentially picked the best. They brought it to this weekly meeting and most of the Motown artists weren't writing or producing their materials necessarily, but they were going in and you had all these artists that would essentially sing.

The same exact song and then they would pick the best version that came out of that to then release the song. Sometimes they had multiple artists that would end up releasing a version. And we saw different versions of this where you had both Diana Ross and Marvin Gaye have their versions of Ain't No Mountain high enough.

Granted it was a few years later in different songs, but a lot of that stems from that quality control aspect. And there's this one quote that, was here from One of the books that was written about, Berry Gordy and Motown, where they talked about quality control and they said, quote, the artists were a means to an end in a way, end quote.

And that's exactly what we're talking about how the downside is that it could limit creativity, but the upside is that it gives you the opportunity to get the best polished diamond from all of the creations that come from this studio.

[00:12:24] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And man, there were quite a few, right? I mean, when you look through, I mean, the heydays, Smokey Robinson, the Miracles, Diana Ross, the Supremes, Four Tops, Marvin Gaye, coming into, you know, Michael Jackson, the Jackson 5, you know, think we've talked about in our previous discussions about hip hop, you know, like sort of the staying power, of different labels and, you know, and how you can kind of keep identifying talent and keep it coming. I mean, that's quite a breadth You know, of like musical accomplishment that they've got, that you could say that Berry Gordy identified over the years.

So, you know, I would really, obviously I'd put him up against any other, identify any A& R, any, you know, music mogul in the history of the business, for sure.

[00:13:05] Dan Runcie: I agree. And I think the other thing that's interesting too, is This taps back into the whole process and quality management things. Berry Gordy really wanted to help shift the sound and direction of this label because at the time, black music and music that was made by black artists was quite segmented where people didn't feel like it could reach beyond a certain audience.

And he experienced some of this himself. One of the reasons that his record stores closed was because he was focused primarily on jazz music. At the time, even Black folks weren't really into jazz at that particular moment. So he just didn't have the market to be able to continue this. So I think that helps Chase Motower.

He says, okay, I want the music that's able to be listened to by everyone. I want Black people to ride with it. I want white people. I want anyone in America to be able to ride with the same way that people would listen to the Beach Boys. And he had a few more interesting things that were part of this process.

One, everyone had an etiquette coach. And these are things that we're teaching them, essentially, how you have black people essentially speak to white people. Granted, I think there's a lot of that that is problematic. That probably wouldn't fly into the same ways today, just given some of the language there.

but then additionally, he also had white salesmen that were essentially the ones that were promoting the records in different areas, going to different radio stations. And he would go as far to insert in records that he's promoting to not even show the artist on the cover because he wanted the record to reach.

And he didn't want people to necessarily immediately see or relate it to a black artist, which I thought was interesting, but lined up with a lot of these things. So, even though some of the choices clearly were problematic, it probably wouldn't fly at the same way today. That's how he was about process and wanting to essentially be able to sell this talent anywhere in the country.

[00:15:01] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and it's especially remarkable when you sort think of the cultural context of, you know, of when this is all happening in the 60s. You know, I mean, this is a time of great polarization and social change and, you know, really like turmoil, in a lot of ways, disunity, but, what Berry Gordy created with Motown and sort of the Motown genre, which I think really like more than any label has become synonymous like a genre, you know, beyond just sort of like the name of label itself, you say Motown music, and you're talking about like a genre, as much as you're talking about a label, the fact that you'd be able to sort of create that it like in the 60s, even the late 60s, when things were really why we think we're polarized now.

I mean, the late sixties, oh my gosh. Like what a testament to the sort of the sound that he created, which, you know, just like bridged all these divides and, you know, you obviously still go to any wedding, black, white, you know, at anything. And, you're gonna hear Motown all over the place.

So I think that kind of goes back to what he created, you know, even at the time. being so accessible to so many different audiences and, you know, one of the things he told me, when I interviewed him, he said that, Martin Luther King came to see him, in Detroit, at the peak of the civil rights movement.

And apparently, according to Gary Gordy, MLK said, he said, what I'm trying to do politically and intellectually, you're doing with your music. I love the feeling people get when they hear your music. And so maybe we can make a deal. And they made a deal to actually put out some of MLK's greatest speeches.

They put out three albums on Motown and Gordy kind of summed it up by saying, if you do the right thing will come to you. So I thought that was such a cool. Little nugget that people don't necessarily realize. and, you know, I think people don't, think of Berry Gordy as like avant garde, you know, civil rights activist or anything, but, he kind of approached it in his own way, which was to make this music that could, you know, that could really bring people together.

They could also get black culture, you know, into the mainstream us culture, at the same time. And, you know, I mean, we saw that, you know, decades later with hip hop, but. Berry Gordy, you know, he made that blueprint, you know, very, very, very early on.

[00:17:03] Dan Runcie: It's a great story because I think it highlights the complexity and that people just aren't in these corners. And as you mentioned, Berry Gordy wasn't known for his civil rights activism. In many ways, people would often point to things that he may have shied away from, where I remember, especially in the 70s when you started to hear a bit more of a pacifist and things like that, there was a push and people wanted Motown to lead more into this and he necessarily wasn't as eager at the time and I remember even Marvin Gaye's What's Going On, one of the biggest records that was ever made.

There was tension leading up to that because Gordy was like, wait, what is this? you want to do this? Like, what are we doing here? And then it eventually gets made. And then you see how I feel like every time that one of these publications has one of the greatest songs ever made, I'm sure it's come up on number one, or at least on several, one of these.

So you see that, and you've seen other areas where he clearly has leaned into this, but I do think that his. Place in his role at that time, often highlighted some of that ongoing tension that we've seen from black leaders over the years about people want progress, but what's the best way to agree with this?

And you date back to some of the more public debates between folks like Booker T. Washington and W. E. B. Dubois about what is the best way for black progress and group economics and things like that. And I feel like Berry Gordy clearly was on a Particular side of that, that not everyone may have agreed with, but he clearly still wanted to be able to help progress things in a particular way.

So he's a very fascinating figure as we look at this progression, especially in the 20th century.

[00:18:42] Zack Greenburg: Well, that's right. And, you know, I think there's a reason you see him put out MLK speeches. I don't, think he put up Malcolm X's speeches, you know, but that was just sort of his approach, right? He was more Martin than Malcolm.

And, you know, obviously you could speak to the merits of either method, but, Berry Gordon definitely, had his preference there.

[00:18:59] Dan Runcie: The other thing that I want to talk about, you mentioned it earlier, but the talent and the breadth of talent that was in this place is such a constraint and such a valuable time.

It's one of those things where just imagine walking through on a, some day in, let's say 1964, you're just walking through Motown and all of the names that you could just see there making music on a Wednesday afternoon. It's crazy to think of the names and also how he found folks because. Look at Smokey Robinson and Smokey Robinson, the miracles essentially end up releasing shop around, which I do think ends up becoming the first true hit that, or the first, hit single that comes from Motown.

He found that he found Smokey on a street corner performing almost, and in many ways, it feels similar to. What we see decades later with Sylvia Robinson driving around the New Jersey tri state area, finding hip hop artists for Sugar Hill Gang. This is how these early entrepreneurs did it. They were the talent development.

They saw things and granted it was a much less crowded market. So the people that were pushing music onto folks had a little bit easier time breaking through, but it was still tough, especially at the time. And he was able to make it work in that way, which was, cool.

[00:20:13] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, he actually did. And, you know, of course, like the one group that we haven't talked about too much yet is Jackson and sort of the way that, different groups were signed in those days, you know, they're all the stories about, well, you hear, you see somebody busking and you sign them and this and that.

And, sort of some of the stories, though, if you talk to a lot of different people, you get, you talk to 3 people, you get 3 different stories. Right? So, I think for my book on MJ, I talked to. His dad, I talked to Berry Gordy and I talked to the guy who signed them to this little record company called Steel Town in Gary, Indiana.

And they all had three different versions of, you know, how it went down, right? And so, there's that old saying, basically that the winners get to write history and, you know, Berry Gordy won. So, you know, whether his version is a hundred percent, accurate or not, that's kind of the version that, you know, we tend to hear I think his version is usually correct, but there's definitely some, you know, embellishment or some showmanship from time to time.

So, you know, I think, for example, with the Jackson 5, Berry Gordy decided to put out, I think it was their first album as Diana Ross presents the Jackson 5 and, you know, she had this little thing where she's like, I discovered this group from Gary, Indiana and like blah, blah, blah, and that wasn't really how it happened at all.

And it was really, you know, depending on who you ask, but I think what happened is Suzanne DePasse, who was one of Berry Gordy's lieutenants, had discovered them, and I think it was, there's another band who heard them, like sent them along to Suzanne DePasse that like, she kind of did the legwork for Berry Gordy.

And it was like many times, many. Kind of connections later that Diana Ross, you know, became connected, to the group. but, you know, it's such a better story, right? Like Diana Ross has found these kids from, from the Midwest and, you know, bringing them out, onto Motown. So. I always think that's, kind of funny how, the stories end up getting presented and, you know, when you hear it from everybody else involved, I mean, and Diana Ross, of course, did become, really instrumental and especially Michael's life, as time went on, moved to LA and I think she, he actually lived with her for a little while while they were, you know, making the move and all this stuff, but, you know, it, didn't exactly start out that way.

[00:22:18] Dan Runcie: Right. And the Jackson 5 is interesting because they, in many ways were the last group that came through in the heyday of Motown because the heyday we're really talking about is that 50 to 60s run that we've been talking about with a lot of the groups and the artists that we mentioned, especially young Marvin Gaye, young Stevie Wonder, Diana Ross and the Supremes.

And then Jackson 5 comes along. But they come along towards the end of the decade. And just for some context setting, in 1968, Motown is doing 30 million in revenue. And they at one point had a 65% hit rate on the songs that they released in terms of actually being able to chart. So the highs were quite high and they were, killing it.

The thing is, though, in the early 70s, this is where things start to shift a little bit, because at this point, Berry has his eyes set much bigger, and he wants to move beyond things in Detroit, because of course he was in the Hitsville, U.S.A. house, solely, after the riots that happened and there was some damage there, they ended up expanding things closer.

they ended up expanding further in Detroit to just get a bigger size studio there as well. But then, he eventually wants to go to Hollywood so that he could get more into film. He wants to get into production for plays. He wants to bring these artists on the big screen. And it makes sense. We see why this is a huge medium.

You saw how much, popular this talent is. And if you can get people to see them and buy into this, visual image that he's clearly curated, no different than we saw someone like Diddy decades later curating things, he wanted to do that. And I think that in many ways, this was one of those big challenges that any leader can have.

Do you stay with the thing that's working really well? Or do you try to expand? And when you do expand, how do you find out? How do you make sure that you have the best talent around you? How do you make sure that you're well equipped? And I think that bowtie really started to strain because as things started to grow for the label, a lot of the artists started to feel like they were getting neglected because of these broader ambitions.

And that in many ways, now we're dating 50 plus years ago to like 1972 timeframe. That's when a lot of ways was the beginning of the end, at least in terms of the Motown that a lot of people grew up with and knew.

[00:24:41] Zack Greenburg: I think so for sure. And, you know, I think as an entrepreneur, you have to seek the next thing, right? I mean, you don't want to stagnate and you kind of have to take the risk and go for the next big thing and maybe you succeed and maybe you don't, and I think that's at least the way we've been conditioned to think. On the other hand, there could be an argument for like, we don't need to have this growth at all costs mindset as a society, you know, what's wrong with having a really awesome business that's just like constantly, you know, successful has happy employees, you know, that kind of thing. But, I guess that's, you know, this is, you know, Trapital not, you know, Trapsocialism, I dunno, we're talking within a certain realm of, you know, of economic, styles and systems.

So that's what's gotta happen. And that's what Berry Gordy decided to do, you know, by moving everything to LA but we talked, a while ago about John McClain, and his role in kind of in, in the past few decades as an executive. He's somebody who rarely talks, but somebody interviewed him at some point.

He said that he thought that moving to LA was, kind of the beginning of the end for Motown, because it, kind of changed Motown from being a trendsetter to being a trend follower. And, I think I agree with that. And, you know, that's not to say that there wasn't additional success, especially, you know, beyond the recorded music business that occurred. And that moving to LA kind of, you know, like supercharged some of that, but yeah, you know, I mean, I think when Motown was in the Motor City, in its namesake place, like, You know, it was sort of like, I don't say the only game in town cause there were other labels, but I think it was sort of, the main game in town and, being in a place that, you know, wasn't sort of the epicenter of the music business allowed it to have kind of its own unique style and not sort of be influenced as much by what else was going on.

And, you know, don't forget in those days, it wasn't like everything was, you know, it wasn't like we were all tuning into the same social media channels. you know, we weren't even like really tuned into cable TV or anything like that, you know, there wasn't the same kind of like national culture that there is today that, you know, where trends just kind of like fly across in a second. And things did kind of take time to move from one place to the other. throughout the country. So, you know, there was like a certain regionalism to it that I think set Motown apart and, you know, maybe you lose a little bit, you know, once you're out in LA, but, you know, certainly around that time, you really start to see some of the artists who wanted more creative freedom, leaving, you know, some others pushing back, you know, I think even within, a few years of moving to LA, the Jackson 5, we're kind of, having some issues with Motown and in terms of, you know, can we make some of our own types of music? You know, do we really have to stick to quite the assembly line? So, yeah, I do think it was a mixed bag for Berry Gordy to head west.

[00:27:20] Dan Runcie: And this is where things really started to struggle because a lot of what worked for Berry Gordy was so perfect for. The Hitsville USA West Grand Ave mentality of building everything there and not to say that he was only an early stage founder that couldn't necessarily progress. But I think a lot of the processes he had were more fit for that era. So naturally, you see the growing success of the Jackson 5 and Michael is no longer 9 years old.

He is at this point now a full on teenager, but unfortunately, it just didn't quite. Progress in a few things, as you mentioned, you wanted more, they wanted more creative control. They also wanted to have a bit more ownership. There were disputes about royalties. And I remember reading something that said that the Jackson 5 had calculated how much they got.

And it was only a 2.3% stake of how much revenue was either coming through or would be coming through in the future. And they see this and they're like, okay, well how can we see our opportunity to get more of that? So then they leave for Epic. And then you also saw a handful of artists at this point were already on their ways out and things were definitely starting to look a little bit more bleak because by the time you get to the end of the seventies, the beginning of 1980s, The music industry was already, granted things are cyclical, but they were starting to sour a bit on black music.

This was the end of disco and people wanted nothing to do with that genre. And even though Motown wasn't disco necessarily, there was vibes of the types of artists they were trying to naturally capture in the 70s. So then that had all of black music taking a hit in a lot of ways and there were groups like the barge and others that I think they tried to make work. Obviously, I think Stevie Wonder was a mainstay during all this and that worked out really well for them, but he was really just 1 mainstay. You did have Marvin Gaye, but again, still, it just wasn't necessarily. The same, and I think that they definitely started to struggle even more at that particular moment.

And even as early as the 80s, you start to see more of that narrative that honestly, you still hear today about recapturing that Motown magic or recapturing that Motown journey. People have been saying this now for 40 years.

[00:29:40] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And I think one thing that people forget is that even though the Jackson 5 moved on to Epic, you know, and that's where MJ ended up, you know, Epic and CBS, and, that's where MJ ended up launching a solo career, people forget that Jermaine actually stayed at Motown initially.

 He had married Berry Gordy's daughter and, you know, they had this whole wedding with like, you know, 150 white doves were released and, you know, they had this, you know, kind of fairytale situation. And apparently, Berry said to Jermaine, like, Hey, you can go with your brothers and stay with me, whatever you want.

And, you know, knowing Berry, I think he maybe didn't put it that delicately or, you know, that was kind of a huge break from Motown because you know, he had really taken the Jackson 5 under his wing. They used to have, Gordy versus Jackson family, baseball games. Michael Jackson would play catcher. It was very So, you know, I think Tito was like the big power hitter, is what I heard. but yeah, for, you know, I mean, these were two families that were really intricately linked. And I think ultimately it kind of came down to, you know, there was some creative control issues, but, you know, Joe Jackson was, pretty controlling, Berry Gordy was pretty controlling and at some point, you know, it just, I think it became impossible for them to coexist.

And so, Joe kind of guided them over to Epic to get that big deal, but, you know, Jermaine. It wasn't obvious that Michael was going to be, you know, by far the superstar of all the Jacksons. And, you know, Jermaine did seem at the time to be like the one who had the most promising solo career, or at least it was, you know, pretty close.

And, you know, he never really found his niche is a solo act and eventually it would go on to get back every night with his brothers and go on tours and that sort of thing.

[00:31:22] Dan Runcie: I think that's a good distinction because people will often point to and think about what are the big nine and then he drops off the wall. This isn't what happened. There's a pretty big difference between those few years. No difference than anyone where naturally there's a difference between a 15 year, but there were others that experienced.

So many of the artists that ended up leaving at that particular year old artist and a 19 year old artist. You're a completely different person at that point. And that's exactly what we ended up seeing with Michael. So missed opportunity for sure missed opportunities that Motown had, we'll get to miss opportunities in a minute, but you often hear people talk about them not being able to keep Michael, but to your point, the Jackson 5 leaving Motown in 1975, 76, isn't the same as.

Them leaving in 1970 time ended up having greater,

success once they were able to have a bit of freedom after leaving Motown, which was a bit unfortunate because obviously, I think it would have been great to see them continue that success under Berry Gordy's umbrella and continue to see them grow.

But not everyone is going to be Stevie Wonder. Not everyone is there to say, Hey, I'm with you until the end. And I'm going to be riding with you during this entire journey. It just doesn't work that way. People have careers. No different. You see them today where people see a bigger opportunity and the grass is greener.

They want to take advantage of that, especially if they don't feel like they are being put in the best position to thrive. So in the 80s, Motown is now officially in its transition recovery mode, trying to recapture what was there and we see a few things happen.

So they start leading in on debarge. And a lot of people, DeBarge did have a pretty big hit with Rhythm of the Night, but I do think that they tried to make the DeBarge family replicate some of this Jackson family, where you had El DeBarge, and you had all of these others, but it just didn't quite click, at least in a mainstream way to that perspective, but then you did have Lionel Richie, who did end up having a pretty big career, especially with everything he had done since the, Commodores and, but then you also had Berry Gordy's son that they were also trying to work into the mix, who performed under the name Rockwell, who had had that song, somebody's watching me that Michael had sung the hook on.

So you had a few things there, but just didn't exactly click because again, it's stuck in two models. Berry wanted to continue to have complete control over it. And the artists just didn't want that anymore. I think that worked when you were literally giving artists. No giving artists in a region of the country like Detroit a platform and opportunity, but they had no other options.

But now they had leverage. Now they could go talk to mca Now they could go talk to CBS Epic and some of these other labels. So Berry's mentality just didn't work as much. And then by 1988 is when we see him transition on from the label, at least as the CEO level. And then we start to see the new blood come in to run the record label.

[00:34:30] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, I think it is important to note that, you know, although you could characterize the 80s as sort of like musical decline era for Motown, you know, in the way that many artists are entrepreneurs, like, seem to be in a period of delays over some decade or whatever, they actually get much richer during that period of malaise, because what they had built before was so good.

And there's still kind of like, they're finally cashing in on it, whereas maybe they didn't cash in on it when it first happened. But like, enough of the sort of like older, wealthier decision makers who can pay them more are like, finally getting hip to the fact that, you know, this is a big deal.

So, I would definitely think about Motown that context and that, you know, when Berry was able to sell, you know, a huge chunk, of the company kind of like step back from it, that was after like a a period of time when Motown was not as hot as it had been.

But you had things going on, like Motown 25 in 1983, that special. Put together, where MJ came back and reunited, with his brothers and the whole Motown crew and he had, you know, all these other artists, but that was actually the first time I think that MJ moonwalked, you know, sort of in public, like you know, he sort of like the popular debut of the moonwalk and it just really kind of, Created, so much buzz around that, that then kind of rubbed off on Motown and didn't really matter whether he wasn't on Motown anymore, but it just kind of gave a little more shine to the label and gave it sort of like, a relevance, I think that helped kind of carry through to the end of the 80s and helped get Berry Gordy, this really big payday.

So, I wouldn't discount like You know, I don't know the sort of like delayed reaction that sort of the half life of fame or whatever you want to call it. But, there were still some of these moments that were created, that kept paying dividends as the time went on. I think

[00:36:13] Dan Runcie: That's a fair point because he also sold at this smart time when right as we're seeing in this current era that we're recording, it's a very hot time for music asset transactions as were the late 80s and early 90s too. That's when you saw Geffen do many of the deals that he had done and Gordy. Did the same where I believe he made 61 million from the sale, or at least his portion of the sale in 1988, which is huge.

You didn't see people, especially black business owners that fully owned everything being able to cash out at that level. So that's a good point. I'm glad that you mentioned that. And with this is when we start to see the transition of leadership. And we start to see a few things that do ring true.

Where the first person that takes over is Gerald Busby, who was leading black music at MCA at the time. And even though Motown had had a bit of its malaise in the 1980s, MCA did not, in many ways, it was seen as the leader in black music. And Bubsy was able to. Have quite a good amount of success there with all of the work that he had done.

the thing is though, he had started to run into some issues because he was in this weird dynamic where this company, Polygram had owned part of the label, as did Boston Ventures, his private equity group, and Bubsy was at odds with the folks at Boston Ventures about. some creative control. And he had this quote where he says he'd rather quit Motown president than see the label become a cash cow for a huge corporation trafficking off of nostalgia.

And that was a quote that was said back in the 90s just thinking about how. Similar, some of those quotes now come to today. And this was someone who was largely credited from helping to say blast black music from that disco era. But unfortunately, I think a lot of those tensions that he had had, at the time just made life a little bit more difficult for him at Motown.

So he eventually we Left. And while he was there, he was able to at least get a few things under. Like he was the one that had brought in voice to men. He had Queen Latifah there. He had Johnny Gill, who was another artist at the time that was quite popular, but maybe hadn't necessarily lived on in the way.

And his dreams were, he wanted to have Motown cafes, the same way you had hard rock cafes. He wanted to have the young acts going and touring around at different places to recreate that vibe. And this is something that we'll get into. I think we see time and time again, where these leaders have all these dreams and visions for what they see.

Motown can be, but because of the powers that be because of other things, they just can't quite get there to make it happen.

[00:38:51] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think that one of the things that set Motown apart early on, you know, as sets many startups apart early on, and many record companies are early on is that they were independent and they could do whatever they wanted.

And, you know, Berry Gordy was, sort of like the unquestioned leader and, you know, things kind of, in the way that things kind of get done, let's say more efficiently, if not, more equitably in dictatorships, like he could just get shit done, move things around, have it happen immediately. And so when you started to have, you know, these corporate parents, parent companies, you know, you'd have to go through all these layers of approval to do anything.

And, kind of like stop being able to be agile. and I think that's especially important in the music business when, you know, you have to. Not be reactive, but proactive, right? You have to be ahead of things. So, you know, if you're getting to a point where you're having to wait on approvals and things like that, you've already lost because you should have been out in front to begin with.

[00:39:48] Dan Runcie: And this is something that I think plagued Motown time and time again, because Gordy didn't necessarily operate in this way. He had so many people that wanted to replicate what he did, but they didn't have the same parameters and the same leeway to make those decisions. As you mentioned, they're now working for corporations that now have their own vested interest.

And to be frank, one of the tensions that we see often in music is that these brazen, bold leaders want to be able to take big swings and do things that are innovative and off the cuff. And these corporations are hard set pressed on efficiency. They don't want to see overspending. They don't want to see over commitments, or they want to be able to feel like this is being run in a strategic way.

This is something that in the Interscope episode that we talked about, Jimmy Iveen struggled with this as well, even as recently as his tenure with Apple music. But this is one of those frequent tensions that happens with music executives. And we saw that continue with the person that replace Busby, which is Andre Harrell.

We talked about him a bit in the Bad Boy episode, but Andre, of course, at this time was coming fresh off of Uptown Records where he was working in collaboration with MCA and he was able to build a little bit of his own fiefdom there where granted he still had people he had to answer to, but I think he had a pretty good relationship with the folks at MCA up until the end there.

Then he goes to Motown and he sees this opportunity. And there's a few things that stick out about this because. As early as a year ago, he was starting to get rumored as to be the next person to then take over. But then he gets 250k as an initial announcement. He takes out this full page ad, New York Times.

And then he has this ad that essentially says from Uptown to Motown, it's on. And it's him sitting in the back of the chair and you see a sweatshirt in the back. And people hated it. People grilled him. The way that they talked about him, the trades and even Russell Simmons and others coming in and giving him shit about it.

He had pretty verbal flight fights with Clarence Avon, who was pretty powerful at the time. And Clarence even said he had swung on him at one particular point and was quite critical of him as well. There's this one quote that I think was really funny here, where this was from the Netflix documentary that was, The Black Godfather, which was about Clarence Avon.

And, or actually, no, this is before this summer variety interview, but they talked about this as well. The doc, Clarence says, Andre and I didn't get along. And then he pointed to an image of the Motown boy band, 98 degrees. And Avon says, Andre wanted to send these white boys to Harlem to make them sound black.

And I was like, you're out of your fucking mind. And it's a funny quote, because I do think that 98 degrees. Maybe didn't exactly have as many hits as they probably would have thought, but in Andre Harrell's defense, and sadly, but true, the mentality wasn't necessarily wrong because of the 90s, the most successful Motown act that you had was Boyz II Men, and we saw at the end of the decade that, what's that guy's name, the con artist that had the boy bands, Lou Pearlman, like, he literally modeled Backstreet Boys and NSYNC after How can I find white boys to men and make them see modern contemporary and make this happen?

And that's how he was able to have success there. And that was before, what's his name? That was before Andre Harrell was really getting going. So he saw where things were going. But it just didn't click at the time. It just wasn't right. And obviously 90 degrees ends up having some decent success, but that's well after Andre Harrell had left the label.

So he ended up leaving and the press was not kind to him. Literally headlines were. Andre Harrell gets fired from LA Times it's a type of headline that we probably don't see now when record label execs get fired in the same way. I think the industry is much more controlled in its PR sometimes to a fault, but it was very interesting to see that, come through. And another interesting quote from that, Lucian Grange had called the Andre Harrell at Motown relationship, an organ rejection. In terms of the relationship there.

[00:43:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, no, I mean, and it's kind of interesting if you think about, you know, around that same time. What was going on in the music business, what would have been a great fit at Motown that didn't happen, would have been to sign Eminem, right? I mean, rather than try to do it with 98 degrees, if you really want to go and sort of like figure out what the kids are listening to, and do the thing where you have a white guy making black music, like. Holy shit. There's Eminem from Detroit, you know, doing his thing. But, you know, I think it took different kind of Andre to pull that one off.

So, you know, in a way well played, you know, I mean, in a way it was like Andre was maybe Andre Harrell was taking some risks, but he wasn't taking quite enough. Like, he wasn't going far enough. He wasn't going way out enough on a limb. So, if you were really going to try to read that Motown, then that then go all the way at the same time, though, I would argue.

I mean, if you look back, it's sort of like what worked with Motown and what did it, I think one of Motown's greatest attributes is also a limiting factor. And that's the thing we talked about before it, it's a label, but it's also a genre. And so if you have Motown making hip hop, it's like, wait a minute this isn't Motown. Like this isn't the genre of Motown. Like this is not the thing that I heard at my aunt's wedding, you know, this is something different. So, I think that they got kind of caught in between and I know that they've done all this stuff in hip hop over the years and, whatever, but it still doesn't feel like quite a fit because Motown, I mean that, you know, Motown was Motown, Motown wasn't hip hop and, you know, maybe if it had started getting into hip hop in the early days of hip hop.

you know, it would have felt a little bit different about that, but, you know, hip hop is Def Jam, hip hop is is Roc-A-Fella hip hop is Bad Boy, and I just, you know, for all the efforts that Motown has made to get into hip hop, I think, it, has had a hard time, you know, fully sticking in the way that it would need to for Motown to replicate its, early success.

[00:45:51] Dan Runcie: And one of the things that I think that a lot of these post Berry Gordy leaders struggled with was... As you mentioned, yeah, with Andre Harrell or others, there was the desire and opportunity to be able to do more, but the combination of the corporate structures in place that just didn't give them the same freedom that a Berry Gordy himself would have had.

And then secondly. The business structure of how Motown itself as a company was set up didn't necessarily allow that because even things like radio or promotion and things like that, they still relied on other labels under the corporate umbrella, even to this day to get some of those things in place.

So it really wasn't. Given the same freedom, even though their name, especially in the late 90s early two thousands was used in, especially back then it was the whole universal Republic Motown group or whatever the amalgamation was at the time. It really wasn't given the same freedom as some of those other record labels were.

And I think we saw those challenges come in from time with some of the other leaders as well, because. Afterward, after, Harrell left, you had George Jackson who was there, felt like a bit more interim there for a couple of years. And then you had Kedar Mazenberg who was there late 90s early 2000.

And that was a bit more than Neo soul vibe. You had India, Ari and a few others, but he has this quote that he gave to the independent, 2000 where he says, but we're not going to dominate the pop charts. Like we used to, how can we, there are too many other companies out there for that. So please don't compare it to the Motown of yesteryear.

This is someone that is in the leadership role saying that exact quote. like How do you get past that? And then he talks again. I think they made a comparison to Def Jam where he said, you know, Def Jam, it took 10, 20 years to get to this established guidance, the way that you did with someone like a Lyor Cohen.

And you essentially had that with Berry Gordy. But again, Lior was doing this before Def Jam ended up, you know, becoming under the whole Island Def Jam group and everything happened there. After that, you have Sylvia Roan, who was rising up the ranks herself. Still one of the most successful Black women in media and music right now.

She's currently at Epic, but she had her time at Motown as well. And I'm going to get into her because I have something I want to say for missed opportunities there. And then you get more recently to the era of Ethiopia Habtamirian, who was there from 2011. Up until 2022, and she's 1 of those that I do feel like was put in a pretty hard spot because on 1 hand, she was able to essentially double the market share.

Thanks in part to the partnership that she had made with hip hop through quality control to be able to help. them succeed And this is especially when the Migos are first starting to pop off, and then that transitions into the success of artists like Lil Yachty and Lil Baby and City Girls and others. But I think that also some of the overspending and things like that were quite critiqued.

And especially from a PR perspective, the same way I was mentioning earlier when. Andre Harrell's challenges were bright front and center for the entire industry to read. Ethiopia's necessarily weren't in the same way. And even in some of the aspects of her leaving, the media had they called it a bit more reflective of, oh, Ethiopia has chosen to step down.

When, yes, that's true, but there was also a pretty large severance package from Lucian and others at UMG. And again, I don't think she was necessarily given as much leadership either, because Motown was kind of, and still is kind of under capital, but now they've essentially moved it back. They had announced that she was solely the CEO back in 2021, but that was a pretty short lived.

And to be honest, it felt like. Yeah. 1 of those announcements that the industry made in this, like, post George Floyd era to try to highlight and support black CEOs, which was great to see, but she's someone that's talented. You don't want to see her just become a tokenized person to have this. So, even though, like any CEO, I think there was things you could point out that she probably could have done differently.

Still wasn't given the most leeway to begin with it. Now we're back in this point where what is Motown who's leading Motown. It's essentially the subsidiary under capital, but it's now a brand. And who knows where things are going to be. And it's quite unfortunate, but given everything that we've said up into this point, it also, isn't that surprising just given the dynamic.

[00:50:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think, you know, like you mentioned the the partnership with quality control. I mean, I think. That was a smart way to get more involved in hip hop because that was a brand that did have roots in hip hop more that, kind of resonated. and so when you sort of like, build as a partnership and look at it that way, it seems a little more credible than like,you know, Motown is doing hip hop now. so it's too bad that, you know, things kind of turned out the way they did, but, it's an interesting asset, right? I mean, it's a brand that has a lot of value. But it's not exactly clear, you know, how to sort of monetize it. And I think with Motown right now, it's like, it's probably about more, than the music, right?

Like that's maybe where most of the monetization opportunity would be, whether it's, you know, Motown branded, you know, I don't know, films and, you know, I don't know, products, whatever the case may be. It resonates more, I think, than it does, as a record label. And people don't care so much about record labels anymore.

Like we've talked about this, you know, in prior episodes, but it's not the same. You're not going to put on your record on a record player and see that big Motown logo on it, you're having something pop up your ear. And there, there's no visual, like, you don't know whether it's on Motown or Def Jam or Universal or Sony or, and you don't probably don't care.

Right. I mean, and I think as things have kind of blurred together, genres are blurring together, you know, different, labels are gobbling each other up over the years, you know, people have just kind of like lost track and, you know, sort of like the idea of a label just isn't as important anymore.

So, I do think that it's. a valuable piece of IP and, you know, there's things to do with it still. But, you know, I think, Berry Gordy certainly like squeezed, you know, all he could out of it and, did a great job of sort of ultimately profiting off of what it was that he built.

[00:52:04] Dan Runcie: Right. Because what you have right now is this brand where they do have Motown the musical, which I do think has been pretty successful, both in the US and in Europe and elsewhere that it's traveled. but that's it. I mean, quality control partnership doesn't exist in the same way since they've been now bought by hive.

Hopefully, Ethiopia and those folks were able to at least retain some type of revenue for helping to set the framework to make that deal possible, but we'll see I, where I landed with this is that. The way to quote unquote, I don't want to say save Motown because that can just seems like such a blanket statement, but if you were trying to improve it from its current inevitable state, it would be finding a way to spin off the asset and the catalog from Universal and having it be in the hands of someone else who can make it work.

The challenge is Universal isn't going to want to give that asset up. That's one of their most valuable back catalogs that they have. So. I was thinking through it in my mind, the same way that you have someone like a Tyler Perry, who are these modern moguls that have a bit of that Berry Gordy vibe to them.

The way that Tyler Perry is, we'll see whether or not he ends up buying BET, but could that same mentality be applied to a record label? And then with that, you're able to then build up your own promotion. You're able to build up your own talent, and then you take things in a slightly different way. I still don't think that guarantees success, but at least you shake things up in a particular way and you still give it that black ownership mentality.

You give it a bit more of that independence and the autonomy and you could potentially see what happens because. We all know what the continued fate is as a legacy entity of a catalog holder that it would be under the UMG umbrella.

[00:53:50] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, a hundred percent. Totally agree.

[00:53:52] Dan Runcie: And with that, I think it would be a good time to dig into some of these categories here. So what do you think is the biggest, this will may be obvious, but what do you think is the biggest signing that they've done or that Motown ever did?

[00:54:04] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think I'd go with the Jackson 5 I mean, you know, although Motown did not ultimately profit off of MJ's solo career, in the way that it would have if it had retained him for a solo career, Motown did profit off of the association as he became the biggest musical star, but basically entertainer of any kind in the world.

and, you know, going back to the Motown 25 moment, you know, other kinds of associations. So I would say like good process. Not really a bad outcome, but like signing the Jackson 5 could have been the path to also signing Michael Jackson as a solo artist. And then, you know, just because that didn't work out in the end, does it mean that that wasn't a huge signing for them?

[00:54:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I was going to say Jackson 5 or Stevie Wonder, which is the one that I had and I say him because of the longevity because even when times were rough, Stevie Wonder still had arguably his best decade in the 70s But, he had a number of them that were there, especially in the seventies. I think that was his strongest run and he stayed through. And I think that in a lot of ways helped bridge the gap during some of those low moments when other artists did come and went. Did come and go. So that was the one I had there.

What do you have as the best business move?

[00:55:18] Zack Greenburg: Well, okay. This is something we haven't talked about and maybe we should talk about it but more, but here we are, we'll talk about it more now. I think it was Berry Gordy setting up, his publishing company. So, I mean, maybe that's cheating a little bit because it was outside of, Motown itself but of He set up Joe bet, publishing, you know, pretty early on. And he didn't realize, you know, his big payday for it until later 1997, but he sold it for 132 million for just for half of it. so the EMI, and then he sold another 30% for I think 109 million. And then he sold the rest of it for, something like 80 million in, what was that?

It was like 2004. So, you know, we're talking like over a quarter billion dollars and that's not inflation adjusted. you know, for the publishing and that, you know, that dwarfed whatever he got for Motown itself. So, and, you know, think about if he held onto it until, the recent publishing Bonanza, I mean, I mean, it could have been close to a billion dollar catalog, right?

I mean, you know, there's nothing, really like it out there. So. He was always very smart about ownership and I think Michael Jackson knew that and, you know, studied him as a kid growing up. And that's kind of what convinced Michael to want to own his own work, and also in the Beatles work, which then became the basis of Sony ATV.

And that was another massive catalog. So, yeah, I think the publishing side of it definitely gets overlooked and, you know, was ultimately the most, financially valuable part. But, even though it was sort of a separate. Company, you know, I would argue it, for sure it wouldn't have happened without Motown happening.

[00:56:51] Dan Runcie: That's a great one. And I'm glad you mentioned that. Cause definitely could get overlooked and doesn't get talked enough about in this whole business. I think publishing in general is something that people don't understand. And so they just don't, dig into it, but he wrote it. I mean, he owned everything.

And obviously when you own the value. When you own something that valuable, it has its assets. And I think why publishing continues to be so valuable in the industry is because I think that the origins of the industry have always had this thought of, well, you could get anyone to go sing the song, but it takes a true genius to write the actual underlying product.

And I think we've seen that continue time and time again. So that worked out in his favor. The one thing that I'll say is on the production side, this is one of the specific things he did that I did think just helped from a, output perspective, there used to be a rule at the time where a record label could only have, whether it was like one song shared in a particular time period with the radio station.

So he was the one that created all these sub labels, whether it was Tamla records or others that were all still, labels that he owned, but he would then release them time and time again and promote those. So it was a different record label that was pushing things onto the consumer, but it was still that Motown vibe.

It was still everything that was coming from Hitsville and that helped them just continue to gain and grow effectively and reach the audience. I think as well, combining that with how they were able to maximize derivative work. We talked about this a little bit with the bad boy episode, but so many ways that did he was huge on having the part one and part two of songs or having the remixes or getting the whole bad boy through on this song that was already successful, very Gordy was doing that stuff 3040 years earlier and was able to reap the rewards for that.

So I put that as one of the business moves we haven't talked about that I do think is up there for them. That's a really good one. I like that. Yeah. dark horse. Do you have one that doesn't get talked about enough?

[00:58:51] Zack Greenburg: Ooh, I'd probably say the publishing again, but,

Yeah, I think it applies because you barely hear about it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's such a big deal that I kind of have a hard time not, but you know, I guess, to switch things up, I mean, I would talk about maybe, I mean, you could say Motown 25 certainly, was something that Motown produced. but I mean, I'm almost say. you know, I think like the whiz is an interesting one.

 Not because it was that necessarily profitable, but because it, you know, it represented Motown's expansion into film and, you know, like, I don't know what you can do with a cast, of musicians. I mean, Diana Ross and Michael Jackson were in there, obviously. that's like a seminal film and I think it was important, you know, culturally, to sort of like an immeasurable extent, you know, even if it wasn't like the most profitable film ever made. It was like, very expensive to make it all that. But yeah, I would kind of look at that as something that was important, just for what it was and not necessarily for what it made.

[01:00:01] Dan Runcie: That's a good one. I was thinking about mentioning that earlier, but the timing just didn't work. So I'm glad you mentioned that here.

Dark horse, I talked about them a little bit, but I do think the success of Boyz II Men in the 90s for Motown gets overlooked. This was the biggest group in the world at one point. I mean, they were huge. They were everywhere. And they were so commercially successful. They made music for everyone. And I know sometimes people may laugh at it and call it middle school music sometimes, but I think they were.

Just able to hit the right note, the right time for what it is. I feel like they really, of any group that has really come since the, I'd say my lifetime of actually being a music consumer, they were the ones that felt the closest to, okay, this feels like a modern continuation of Motown. If you were to say, okay, what does the success of Motown look like, but in a 90s package?

It would be Boys II men. They actually had them in an era where it was competitive, and they were quite successful. Unfortunately, it didn't last forever, but I mean, they lasted arguably longer in popularity than a lot of the boy bands and others that came after them, in just in terms of how long that their run was.

And, you know, some of those groups may have been more commercially successful, but it's good to see them still thriving. And the fact that they've been in Vegas, they have a good living. They're able to just continue to essentially succeed at this residency model that others have caught on to themselves and have made plenty of money with, I think that they worked out pretty well for Motown.

[01:01:32] Zack Greenburg: Yeah,

for sure. And I think they really fit with the Motown ethos, even if it's not like the same genre exactly as, what Motown was before, it's like, you could hear it at your aunt's wedding, right? I mean, you can hear it at your cousin's wedding, whatever. I don't know why I say aunt, like everybody's aunt is getting worse or something or like, it's only recently getting great, but, whosoever wedding it is, you know, you could hear Motown, you could hear Boyz II Men, and I think, you know, that's kind of the continuation of the identity. I think that's a really good point.

[01:01:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, so for missed opportunity, I want to go first with this one. And this is what I was holding out on. I was going to share it in the Sylvia Roan focus, but I want to share it now. So in 2007, that's when Sylvia Roan starts have, she's the head of Motown just from a timeline perspective, she's head of Motown at this point.

She starts having the conversations with Drake and there was actually some type of deal in place. And this was Drake right around that comeback season era. So far gone, wasn't there. And according to Drake, Drake says that she says that he didn't quite have enough to be able to, you know, make it as a true superstar.

He, of course, takes light to that he ends up working with Cash Money and then ends up working with, you know, Republic and thereafter. But this has to be a huge sliding doors moment because he has held it against where he calls Sylvia out on the song. Say what's real the opening track of so far gone.

He ended up apologizing because he said some unkind words about her. So he didn't apologize necessarily for the ethos behind what he said, but he apologized for his word choice. He brings it up again, two years later at like some type of award show. And then, you know, he has that song, we made it from the mixtape where he's like a 2007.

I was in the lobby at Uptown or whatever. So he goes back to it almost in the same way that, you know, Jordan would go back to being cut on his freshman year, or Kobe is listing all the people that were drafted ahead of him. And then when you think about that in the context of the Michael Jackson, Jackson 5 thing, not working out.

Motown almost has this like Portland Trailblazers history where I feel like not getting Michael Jackson and making that work was almost like them drafting Sam Bowie ahead of Michael Jordan 1984 draft. And then years later, them not signing Drake when he was there and wanting to come through is like drafting Greg Oden over Kevin Durant if you're the Portland Trailblazers. And can you imagine how much different Motown's fate would be the past? 14, 15 years, if they had signed Drake, we would be having a very different conversation today.

[01:04:07] Zack Greenburg: That's a really great, connection. And I hadn't really thought about it that way. Yeah, absolutely, and you know, for mine, the missed opportunity was, MJ as well.

So, you know, you kind of connect it with that through line, I also wonder if like Jermaine was something of a missed opportunity. I guess he was given kind of every opportunity, every advantage you could have had. But, you know, he had the name recognition, but it used to really connect as a solo artist.

I mean, I wonder if, they'd maybe given him more creative freedom, maybe given him less creative freedom. I don't know that he could have really been the standout solo artist. But then again, I guess, you know, looking back in the fullness of time, you know, he was never going to be the biggest Jackson brother.

So, you know, man, I mean, I know Michael and Berry had a really good relationship. and I think that Michael's dad and Berry you know, didn't necessarily. So. If that had been a little different, they could have stayed. and maybe you would have seen Michael, you know, coming out of the whiz, you know, not profitable movie into making some very profitable records for Motown.

But, you know, then again, I mean, and I think that's the big question, right? Like Michael Jackson's records did so well because he was able to be Michael Jackson. Would Berry have sort of like prevented him from taking some of these weird risks? Like, I mean, Thriller is a weird, like, campy song, you know?

and it does not fit anything in in the Motown vibe. Do you think Berry Gordy would have been okay with this sort of like, like, you know, very bizarre music video, like dead people walking around. I mean, it's not really in his, assembly line, you know, there are no zombies in the assembly line, for Motown.

so who knows how it would have turned out, if MJ had stayed, but, you know, I, I think one way or the other, as with all the Motown artists, right? These are all creative people and they were able to make their own, sort of, you know, put their own stamp on the world. And I think MJ would have been able to do that if he'd stayed too.

[01:05:55] Dan Runcie: And I think the same could be said about Drake as well with that timing too, of course, we're talking about now in this context of Drake, in many ways, becoming the most commercially successful artist of the past 14, 15 years. I know you can say Taylor and a few others, but one of. But what would that look like on Motown?

We don't know necessarily. Would they have tried to turn him into Trey Songz, and then he's following that path, or something like that, which is something that Drake has spoken to himself. There's clearly something about that continuity of the Cortez Bryan, and then Wayne and Young Money, and being able to have that ecosystem working together, combined with the, with Baby and Slim, combined with the folks at Republic.

There is clearly an energy there. And then, you know, if Drake was on a label that didn't even have its own promotion or its own tools, how could that have worked out for him? So some of these hypotheticals don't always necessarily line up, still missed opportunities, but don't necessarily always line up.

[01:06:55] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think that cash money gave Drake An edge that he would not have had at Motown, you know, and simply by having that side of the hip hop world, you know, kind of cosigning him, I think it evened out, some of his tendencies in a way that, made him a more well rounded artist.

[01:07:13] Dan Runcie: Agreed. before we get to the last piece about who won the most, who lost the most, do you think that we would ever get Motown truly on the big screen? And part of me isn't sure because obviously Dreamgirls, which people have debated whether that's loosely veiled on Motown or not, I probably lead more to yes than not. Berry Gordy hated it. And so many people that were associated with it hated it because of how he was presented. And if that's the reaction to Dreamgirls. Then what would the final output be of something that Berry Gordy did give his blessing on, especially if you want to be able to tell a story as nuanced as the one that we've been talking about now?

[01:07:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, no, I don't think, he would ever greenlight anything that was like, you know, completely 100% accurate, even if it didn't reflect so well on him. But, you know, then again, I mean, you know, his story, it might not be a hundred percent the real story, but it's a great story, you know, so, I guess you could kind of look at it anyway. I don't know. What do you think?

[01:08:17] Dan Runcie: It would be a great story and I think that in the right hands, it would be really magical and unique to see something. So many of we've seen so many biopics now done about figures who have had complex histories. And there's always some things that have been debated and nuanced with it as well.

I do think that for instance, I think that Elton John Rocketman one was one that I actually thought was better than most people give it credit for. And I think it was honestly better than like Elvis, the more recent movie that had made a ton of money. But I see those, I'm like, okay, they found ways to tell these things.

I don't know if Berry Gordy himself, getting back to just him being, wanting to be in control, wanting to have everything be to a certainty. How much creative control is he going to want to offer in that way? Granted, he's now 93 years old. I don't know if I'm seeing him rolling up the sleeves, getting in the weeds in the same way, but it might be a while until we actually see something grace the screen like that.

[01:09:13] Zack Greenburg: I think so, too. Just wait for the Baz Luhrmann version. It's coming.

[01:09:19] Dan Runcie: Oh, goodness. who do you think won the most out of Motown? This is probably easier. Yeah, I think there's

[01:09:26] Zack Greenburg: no way to argue anything other than Berry Gordy, you know, you could make an argument for MJ. I mean, you could say that, he learned so much, that he then took out of this environment where he was really not able to earn that much money.

And then, you know, applied it in his own way, applied the lessons, not only to the music, but to the music asset buying, which was, you know, for him, I think, just as lucrative as the music itself. I mean, that's all stuff he got from Berry Gordy, he got from Motown. So, you know, you could make an argument for MJ.

I mean, he earned by my calculations, and, you know, I have to go back and look at the exact number, but it was over a billion dollars in his lifetime. And I think it's over 2 billion dollars since he died. And I think that's not even adjusted for inflation. So, you know, I mean, Berry Gordy, made hundreds of millions, you know, MJ made billions.

Would he have done it if he hadn't been in Motown? I don't know, but, let's say, I think he always had the talent. but, you know, the business acumen, I think he really picked up in, to a large part from, Berry Gordy, of course, he had some negative business tendencies as well.

and some other stuff, of course, that we could have a whole other episode on, but, I think at the end of the day, yeah, he learned a a lot from Berry but, you know, you still got to say Berry is the clear winner from Montana.

[01:10:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I agree. Nothing else to add there. I think that was the right take. It's Berry but there's a case to be made for Michael. Here's a new one. who do you think lost the most?

[01:10:43] Zack Greenburg: Oooh Jermaine. Yeah, Jermaine. Man, you know, I mean. I don't know, like, why didn't it work? Can we go back and do a whole episode on that? I mean, he had the fandom, the infrastructure, he had like an international fan base. I mean, I guess, I guess it's a matter of, you know, it's always the risk when you have somebody who's part of a really big group and they go out on their own and it just doesn't, you know, have quite the same resonance, but, you know, I mean, he put everything, on Motown, you know, both in his personal life and in his, music career. And it just didn't really quite turn out, I think like anybody had hoped. So. I'll go with Jermaine.

[01:11:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think it's fair because even if you look at Janet, right? It's like she may not have had the career that Michael had, but it proved that there was an appetite for other Jacksons, like, people wanted to see this come through, and did he put it, did he bet on the wrong horse? That might be strong, but it wouldn't be a wrong takeaway, I would say, mine is on the executive side. I could be blanket and say every executive that led Motown after Berry Gordy, because I just don't think they were positioned the best for success.

But I do think specifically Andre Harrell, because I think if you go back to that era, he was big time. He wasn't even in the. I mean, even beyond just music, because of everything he had when he had that Uptown and MCA deal, and he had that Strictly Business, Strictly Business movie and others, they were elevating him the same way that they were looking at this renaissance of black talent and art, whether you looked at folks like Spike Lee, especially in the post, he's got to have it and do the right thing era, he was in that era.

He was in that frame. And I think that everything. Yeah. In a lot of ways, went downhill, at least from a public perception of, you know, global influence. Granted, I know he's still at Harrell Records after he ended up working with Diddy again, but it was more so one of these more journeyman roles of, you know, I have this small thing that can make it work instead of being on a path to being one of the most successful black entertainment moguls from the US.

And I think that before Motown and before everything for him. A lot of the challenges and dirty laundry and things that, you know, he obviously was criticized for inefficiency as others were. But I think that there would have been an opportunity for him to be able to realize more of that potential. And it kind of makes me think of just not just categorizing him, but the same way that we look at sports where there's certain franchises that just haven't been able to Get beyond a certain point.

I look at the New York Nixon granted up until this point, this year, it's been a pretty tumultuous past 20 years, especially in that post, you know, Riley, Jeff Van Gundy, 90s era. I don't think all the coaches they had were bad, but you have this broader infrastructure with the owner and everything else going on. Like, I don't care if you had, you actually did have Phil Jackson come through. I don't care if you had Steve Curran, Greg Popovich come through. I think they would have struggled as well. And I think that some of that exists with Motown, but just given the structure, you have someone talented like Harrell.

And I think a lot of the image got put. On him as someone that couldn't cut it as opposed to this broader structure, that made it tough to succeed.

[01:13:58] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think that's a really fair point. And, you know, I think that was sort of the moment when it was like, is Andre going to sort of like, continue staying ahead of his mentor, Puffy or not. And, you know, obviously he did not, and then he went from being the boss to the employee again, you know, not a bad situation, to be in working for Puffy necessarily. I mean, I guess it could be a little tough to work for Puffy sometimes is he referred, but in this case, you know, yeah, he ended up being surpassed by his own. But his own protege, shall we say, which, you know, I guess is also a mark of good mentorship to some level, but he did seem like he got kind of stymied, or hit a ceiling at some point.

[01:14:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. All right. Before we wrap things up on Motown, anything else that we didn't cover that you wanted to talk through about Motown?

[01:14:40] Zack Greenburg: I think that does it. I think, you know, well, I think we could have like five more episodes, but you know, for the purposes of, the listenership, you know, probably we covered it pretty darn thoroughly, I'd say.

[01:14:49] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Yeah, and I think this is good. All right. Well, before we wrap things up with this episode, I know you have some new stuff that you've been working on.

 So tell us about the JayZ index I know this is something you've been working on. We talked about it, a little while ago when you were brainstorming the idea, but it's come to life and you shared it this week. So tell us about it.

[01:15:06] Zack Greenburg: That's right. So, you know, back in the day, I was a personal finance reporter at Forbes, and that was even before I, you know, started writing about hip hop and the entertainment business and doing biographies of Jay Z and what have you.

And so, when I was a personal finance writer, I used to do these things we called money manager profiles. And basically you just find somebody who managed private assets in an interesting way. Maybe it was like an endowment or something, and you would kind of like try to put together, something that was representative that, you know, retail investors could buy. And so it occurred to me the other day, like, you could do that with Jay Z. He has his hands and, you know, so many different pies at this point, so many of the companies that he's been involved with are now tied to, publicly traded companies. And, you could actually create like a Jay Z Index.

So I kinda, I just sort of like started as a thought experiment. and then I dug a little bit deeper and I came up with 11 different stocks and, you know, I did allocations based on sort of what his, percentage of his overall net worth they represent. And, you know, so it goes from, you know, something as small as luxury vehicles, 2%.

I put Rolls Royce, which is publicly traded, which makes jet engines in addition to cars, because Jay Z has, you know, a private jet in addition to his, automobile collection, you know, all the way up to some of the companies that he does business with, whether it's, you know, live nation and the rock nation partnership, LVMH, which is now, you know, his partner on Armand de Brignac, there's a whole bunch of other stuff in there.

So I put it out on my sub stack, which you can find at Zonglong.com. It'll take you right to the thing and to check it out. But, yeah, I just, you know, we always have put the caveats of like, investing involves risk. This is not a solicitation to buy securities or whatever, but, you know, I just thought it was really fun exercises.

I talked about it like, it's not the same, obviously you can't create Jay Z's portfolio. a hundred percent, because that's the point. That's why a billionaire cause he does these things. He seeks them out. He attaches his name to it and they become more valuable. But I like to call it, you know, like you could build a Lego model of the empire state building, you can do that equivalent, with this portfolio. And, so actually I created a Google Finance watch list, and I'm going to track it and see how the JayZ index performs against SOP and some other benchmarks. And, you know, maybe we can talk about it again in six months or something.

[01:17:19] Dan Runcie: That's awesome. So for all the people out there that would rather take a dinner with Jay Z instead of getting 50, 000, maybe we should check out this index. Then you can see how it compares. And maybe your money would actually be better off investing how Jay Z invests instead of passing up 50, 000 for the chance to talk to them.

[01:17:36] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, what's his line at, I'm trying to give you a million dollars worth of game for 9.99 so trying to give you a billion dollars worth of game with the Jay-Z Index. So check it out.

[01:17:46] Dan Runcie: Nice. And yeah, we'll link to it in the show notes for sure. Very good. Very good stuff, man. Always a pleasure.

[01:17:52] Zack Greenburg: All right, Dan, as always, have a good one.

[01:17:54] Dan Runcie: You too. Take care. All right.

[01:17:56] Dan Runcie Audio Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast. Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 4713 no The Real Story Behind Hip-Hop's "Decline" https://www.trapital.com/podcast The media commentary on hip-hop’s decline is stronger than ever. Especially since it took six months for a rap album to top the Billboard 200 in 2023, and no rap song has topped the Hot 100 yet.. Is hip-hop slipping? Or is there more to this story? is slipping or others are merely catching up? To break it all down, I’m joined by The Wall Street Journal’s Neil Shah, who has written about this extensively.  0:40 Our take on hip-hop’s “decline” 4:51 Upcoming albums that may top the charts 8:48 How Billboard charts work 17:40 Hip-hop over indexed when streaming took off 18:30 Was hip-hop held back in the past? 20:26 Implications of chart performance 22:55 Gaming the system with album bundles  32:49 Are album equivalent units the best way to measure success? 35:13 Hip Hop’s market share in 5 years 45:16 Music recycling IP vs. developing new one Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Neil Shah, @NeilShahWSJ This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Neil Shah: While it looks like hip hop is suffering a little bit right now, or in this cooling period, maybe it's tentacles have stretched out So much, it's influences so total that it's actually become the bedrock of a lot of pop music. [00:00:12] Dan Runcie Intro Audio: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:40] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: This episode is about the state of hip hop, which has been quite the topic over the past year. So it was right around this time in 2022, when we started to see articles and stories and reports pop up about hip hop's decline in market share. This is specifically looking at the US listening consumption over time for hip hop artists that were producing tracks. And after a record number of years of growth in hip hop is eventually becoming the most listened to genre of music in the 2010s. We started to see that growth slow down relative to other genres. And there's a number of reasons for this, a number of reasons that are unfair, a number of reasons that require a little bit more digging into and to break it all down. I was joined by Neil Shah from the wall street journal. He's written about this himself. Him and I've talked about this both on and offline, and we decided to bring it together to talk about all the various factors. What does this mean for the music industry? What does it mean for the artist in the industry in terms of the budgets that they get? And is this even fair when we think about all of the factors in place with regards to streaming, where audiences grow, whether hip hop artists and their fans are more likely to be early adopters versus other genres, some of the rules that Billboard and other entities make that influence how these charts get factored in vinyl and a whole lot more. So let's dive into the state of hip hop. [00:02:05] Dan Runcie: All right. We're back for another episode this time. Neil Shah from the wall street journal makes his return. Welcome back. [00:02:11] Neil Shah: Thanks for having me. [00:02:12] Dan Runcie: And today we're going to talk about a topic. Both you and I have written about, thought about and has come to a head this past year. And that's the state of hip hop and where it lies relative to other genres right now. I'm sure many of you have seen the stats dating back as early as last year. When many outlets really started to talk more about hip hop's market share of its overall listening relative to other genres, which genres are growing at faster rates than others, which are declining. And now we're in this place in 2023. We're still as of the end of June, almost six months through the year, not one rap album has topped the Billboard top 200. And I'm pretty sure that no rap song has topped the Billboard hot 100 either. So Neil, what do you make of all of this? [00:03:04] Neil Shah: It's pretty striking that rap has not topped either of these charts, the Hot 100 or the Billboard 200. To put it into some context, in 2019, 17 rap albums Hit number one on the Billboard 200. 17. In 2020, another 17 did. basically last year, we started to see a slowdown on this front where there were fewer number one hits on these two charts in rap and hip hop and R& and then now this year, we have this striking reality that rap has been absent in this way, which I believe it, we haven't seen something like this. Since about 1993. So yeah, think it's generating lots of discussion and varied opinions. Hip hop has long had ups and downs, you know, in the 21st century, there are plenty of lulls, there are plenty of hot periods, and we could be in another lull. But my gut sense at the end of the day is that this does constitute a fairly significant slowing compared to how hot this genre was running, I mean, just a few years ago. I think it's a marked slowdown. And while one can quibble with the fact of not having a number one, because that can easily change, you know what I mean? Like as soon as Travis Scott puts out Utopia, as soon as Drake puts out For All the Dogs, the picture can change slightly. But even all that quibbling aside, I do feel like it's pretty striking that there is a slowdown. [00:04:51] Dan Runcie: Right, and that's a good point, because we could look at the more specific pieces of it. And yeah, if J. Cole, if Travis Scott dropped Utopia, if any of these things happen in the spring, we may not be having the same conversation from a top headline. Oh, let's react to this thing. But even like you said, you named 17 albums from a couple of years ago. So we're talking one every three weeks, essentially that hit that target, if not more, and we're now 24 weeks into the year and we haven't had any. So there's still a pretty big shift, even if you account for the superstar releases. And if we're looking at the artists that are planning to release albums this year, I was looking through at some of the artists that have. Big albums coming out, and these are the only ones that I thought are certified locks to hit number 1 on the billboard. You have Drake's new album, as you mentioned, Travis Scott's Utopia, J. Cole's The Fall Off, if he drops it this year, Lil Wayne, I think there's another Carter coming, Lil Uzi Vert, who I believe is dropping pretty soon, so he could potentially be the 1st, and then after that, And I hate to say this, but maybe Cardi B. I still think that she's pretty strong, but we'll see it. I say maybe more. So we'll see if she drops an album. And I say maybe to Nicki Minaj too, while I have a bit more confidence in her dropping an album, her last album went number two, second to Travis Scott back in 2018, but it's also been a long time. And some of the other artists who are a few more fan favorites, like Pusha T or A$AP Rocky Rick Ross, even Chance the rapper. Great artist. But it's been a while since any of those artists, if ever have topped the billboard. 200 for album charts. I know Ross and others have in the past, but, so there's a lot of fragmentation. There were, there's still are artists have a shot, beloved albums, but they're not reaching this particular milestone of how people view mainstream success. Yeah, the [00:06:46] Neil Shah: question of who's a lock for number one in the rap community has gotten a little bit more complicated than maybe a few years ago. Some of these people may not be a lock. [00:06:58] Dan Runcie: Do you think anyone I named isn't a lock. [00:07:00] Neil Shah: Drake is obviously a lock. Travis, I would think would be a lock. Vert comes out on Friday, that's a pretty large artist and a highly anticipated album, but I'm not entirely sure. I'm not entirely sure that that would be number one. I'm not sure about Nikki. I would think Cardi, who I believe has been having 2023 in the frame, I would think that Cardi B would be number one. It's just a little bit more complicated than especially with projects from the likes of Pusha T and whatnot. Yeah, there's definitely not a guarantee that even these stars and superstars will perform the way they did. Of course, that's up to the vicissitudes of do they have a hot single or not? How much mindshare are they capturing, you know, these things change from year to year. All things considered, it does feel like, you know, things. I'd be worried about the downside of people being a little bit weaker. We just had Gunna, for example. Gunna, you know, came out with an album. It's been doing pretty well. his mentor Young Thug actually also just released an album. There's a new Metro Boomin version of it that I think came out today or yesterday. But look Gunna back in 2022, last year, hit number one. [00:08:19] Dan Runcie: Outsold the Weeknd [00:08:20] Neil Shah: and what happened this year with this album they're gonna just put out, it hit number three. And even more than that, just the EAU unit figure, the equivalent album units, 85K, 85, 000 is decent, but not the strongest showing. So, I think there is a question about when these stars come back, just how well will they do as the surrounding environment for them is, creating what we're talking about, [00:08:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think there's a few factors here, and I do want to call them out. Billboard, who does reflect the charts, they released a article, 5 Reasons Why a rap album has yet to top the charts and there are 5 reasons are I'll read them here. The 1st is a lack of stars essentially in a fragments in a fragmented landscape. There's so many artists that don't necessarily need mainstream success that billboard relied on. And I think that could be true to an extent. You have their 2nd, 1 here, which is growth for hip hop itself is only up 6. 3% compared to country and Latin, which are growing much faster. I have some thoughts on that, but that was their 2nd point. They made the 3rd, which is related to Gunna here. They talked about guns, violence, drug abuse and courtroom legal battles as well that have slowed down or halted the production of many promising stars. Whether you look at XXXTentacion, Juice WRLD, Pop Smoke, and then you look at Gunna and Thug and others that have been battling legal challenges as well. The fourth one they mentioned is just stagnation. At the charts, which I think may be a bigger thing where if you look at the charts this year, at least for the billboard 200, it's been SZA, it's been Morgan Wallen and a little bit of Miley Cyrus. And that's pretty much been it for most of the year. So it's not even the way that it was in the pre pandemic years where every week there was a new album that seemed to have its glory moment. It's the same artists that are staying at the top. And in some ways, it almost feels a little bit like a throwback to days before streaming when we saw a little bit more stagnation there. And then their 5th reason is not enough dance music because they talked about albums like Renaissance or Drake's Honestly, Nevermind, Dua Lipa and Future Nostalgia and how they feel like post pandemic people want to get out there and how a lot of hip hop music has been a much more slow chill, especially in the streaming era. And I think that each of those are valid points, but I think there's a few other things that weren't mentioned in billboards article that they themselves as the entity that decides these things has a big influence. We mentioned several of those Pre pandemic years. 1 of the biggest things is how billboard itself.  Change the rules and album bundles is a big thing. Ironically, they're actually going to be coming back with album bundles in a few months, but this was their way to be able to help preserve the sale of the album and have artists combine their album with a merch item, whether it's a T shirt or some other type of item. But like anything, people started to game the system and people felt like it wasn't necessarily about album sales. It was more about people trying to sell these items. And I think we saw that most to extreme degree with what Travis Scott did with Astroworld, where he literally had an e commerce machine that was running, in perpetuity to help make sure that album almost doubled in its expectations of what people thought we just hadn't seen that much of a outpaced growth, but he saw the way the system was and we'd into it. So I think that's one thing. That's a big factor, a second thing that I look at is just what we consider hip hop on these charts, because of course, billboard itself is it's reporting things based on us listenership. But we know that Latin music is very popular as well. Just considering how well bad bunny did on the charts. But as you and I've talked about, bad bunny is labeled as Latin. He's not labeled as the actual genre that he performs. He's more categorized based on the region he's from. And for all intents and purposes, he considers himself a rapper. He considers himself a hip hop artist. So if hip hop was given some of that region agnostic glory that pop music or others get, maybe we would see, maybe we would even be having this conversation and we think about the global aspect of it. So those are two things. There's a few more, but I wanted to get your thoughts on those. [00:12:44] Neil Shah: Yeah. So let's start with that last one, what if hip hop is suffering from its own success, hip hop has had booms. For decades now, but what we saw in this back half of the 2010s was something fairly special and now we're at this juncture right now and so it just raises the question of like it looks like we're in a cooling period for hip hop, but hip hop is It's tentacles are reaching into, I mean, almost all of the other genres that are capturing the imagination of music fans right now. I mean, often Morgan Wall in the country star sings with rap like cadences. one reason why [00:13:25] Dan Runcie: Hip hop sounding beats too. [00:13:27] Neil Shah: Yeah, even the tracks hip hop. Some of the bedrock, some of the sonic structures of Morgan Wallen's music are inherently, deeply hip hop. One reason why BTS and a new crop of Kpop stars have thrived so much, especially in the U.S., is their hip hop fluid. You can go down the list. I mean, the regional Mexican music craze that's going on right now. there's a ton of hip hop there, reggaeton, Afro beats. and then of course, Latin music and figures like Bad Bunny, Who's rapping and due to billboard nomenclature is categorized as a Latin artist, so one could look at the phenomenon differently and think, actually, while it looks like hip hop is suffering a little bit right now, or in this cooling period, maybe it's tentacles have stretched out So much, it's influences so total that it's actually become the bedrock of a lot of pop music. And then while rap stars are not thriving the way they did, say, between 2016 and 2019, in particular, because that's the period we're coming down off of, one could argue that it's. In all of these other places. And in fact, in this age of, hip hopping everywhere, of everyone sing rapping, essentially the boundaries between quote unquote core hip hop, what Billboard would categorize as hip hop for the purpose of the charts, and a lot of these other genres is getting very fuzzy. So, one party could look at the phenomenon before us and think, weakness, in hip hop, another way of looking at it would be an increased fuzziness between hip hop and these neighboring genres. And so that that could be, that could be a major factor here. and yet at the same time, you know, something I think about a lot. what is the right way to think about this? And I'm really of 2 minds, like, I'm kind of in a conflicted space where on 1 hand, I don't know whether hip hop's influence is what we're watching is this kind of dominance on a new level, hip hop being a victim of its own success and essentially being everywhere or whether, you know, there really is some kind of transitional period afoot, you know, 1 thing to keep in mind is just how hot the 2010s and it particularly the back half was just think about how much era defining music was made in this period, incorporating R&B to Beyonce, Rihanna, Kanye West. The hubbub over Life of pablo, Drake views, you know, Frank Ocean, Kendrick Lamar. I'm just talking about the top level. We're not even talking about the medium tier of excellent rappers and R&B stars beneath that Childish Gambino. There was a lot going on during this period. And so, despite, some of the other factors that we're talking about and that we'll talk about, I feel like that's what you gotta compare it to. And so, to my mind, and I'm getting to actually a 2nd point in the billboard article. it does feel like we're help where we've come from a unipolar hip hop dominated universe using the strictest definition of hip hop to something. That's more multipolar and really. That can be a function of time and development, i.e. hip hop's success. Another good point that I think the Billboard article raised was just, you know, as a genre becomes so dominant, how much room is left? Once you're king of the mountain, how much growth is there left in the shoe? I mean, mathematically, your growth is going to, slow down. I come across this when I think about vinyl sales, you know, for years now, vinyl has been hot, but naturally, mathematically, as your base gets bigger, and we're talking about lots and lots of sales, your growth rates slow down. So, like, this is just kind of an analogy, but as hip hop gets so dominant, there's something natural about not just a genre having slower periods in a cyclical fashion, which is a slightly separate thing, but there's also something natural about the genre at this point actually just I'm losing some steam for purely mathematical reasons. [00:17:40] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you mentioned the back half of the last decade as being a high point for hip hop, because here's some important stats that influence this. Right in the middle of the 2010s is when we saw this shift is when streaming started to take off. Apple Music launches Spotify really kicks into gear. Of course, they launched in the US in 2011, but things really came into focus in 2014 and then in November, 2014. That's when the billboard 200 starts counting streams and they've altered the formula a little bit, but it's roughly been the same where it's been anywhere from around 1, 250 to 1, 500 or even more if it's a free ad supported stream. But that's when they started counting streams at that particular point, Spotify had 15 million paid users and 60 million overall. And then, four years later by 2018, they have 96 million paid users. And so if we go back to that point, so this is obviously when Travis Scott was releasing Astroworld, when Drake released God's Plan, as you mentioned, all these hip hop albums are doing extremely well, but there was a large. Index on hip hop fans. And as we've seen when technology and time again, hip hop fans as a genre do tend to over index and their early adopters with new technology. We saw that with Spotify and the various streaming services, especially where their user base was. And you also saw that as well with social media with Twitter and places like that. Where were the genres that people were talking about most on these platforms? It was hip hop. So there was this run of hip hop getting this lead. That other genres didn't have him because it over indexed early. You saw this outsized performance, especially as record sales, traditional, pure album sales started to dip a bit, but since then, you're now looking in this post quarantine phase and Spotify's growth is, paid subscriber amount is more than doubled since 2018, it's now over 200 million paid subscribers. And most of that growth came less from hip hop fans, but more from everyone else. So as we look and see the growth of whether it's Latin music, music in Africa, music in Asia, even country music within the US, you're looking at the growth of Spotify and the growth of all these streaming services and how that impacts charts and performance. So even though hip hop listening is still growing. In the way that we've seen it record labels in the industry often do report things as a zero sum game in a lot of ways. So because of that, even though the growth is slowing down, it's still growing. It's just not growing as fast as these other genres that are now having their late 2000 late 2010s hip hop moment [00:20:26] Neil Shah: Totally would. so yeah, when I looked into this topic last fall. Basically, fall was upon us in 2022, and it looked like hip hop's chart performance was relatively weak, so I wanted to look into this topic at that point. One of the interviews I did was actually with the head of the data tracker, Luminate, and this is definitely one thing that they noted, which is hip hop fans. This is an important point, hip hop fans, were early adopters for streaming. So they over indexed and kind of led the way during an earlier stage of streaming adoption in precisely in the middle of the 2010s. And so, yes, you're right that you're, seeing, a shift here as the base of the streaming universe essentially becomes more varied. And especially during the pandemic, we saw these significant jumps with country and Latin music, partly that's a Morgan Wall in effect. Partly the Latin music numbers are juiced by Bad Bunny, these gargantuan artists in terms of their numbers, but it's a broader phenomenon of these genres. And their fans being a bigger part of the streaming pie and as a result, partly because of that hip hop share of streaming, not overall music consumption, but hip hop market share of us streaming is yes, like period after period, year after year is dipping as we now have a, actually a fuller picture. A more varied streaming audience. so that's definitely a major factor and it's you know, part of why country and Latin music in particular have gotten the lifted that they've got of late. One thing to keep in mind throughout all of this is that while we're talking about, hip hop slowing, at least according to these chart metrics and streaming market shares and whatnot, it's always worth mentioning or noting that it's market share still outstrips these other genres by a wide margin, not just Latin and country, which, you know, Latin's numbers in the billboard math are, have always been weirdly low, frankly. They seem lower than they should be, but they're fairly low. I mean, we're talking like, right? Six, seven, eight percent, just neighborhood ballpark in terms of market share of U. S. consumption compared to hip hop, which is still outpacing. [00:22:46] Dan Runcie: In the high 20s, Yeah. [00:22:48] Neil Shah: Right. So it's just worth keeping in mind how much of a distance there still is between hip hop and some of these other genres. [00:22:56] Dan Runcie: And this dynamic as well made me think about other times, even before streaming where distribution and means have impacted which genres were more popular. And in a lot of ways, I've often thought that streaming's ability to lower the entry barriers and to eliminate the gatekeepers, not completely eliminate, but to lessen their power is what enabled hip hop artists and artists from other genres to realize their power. And it made me think back to times in the CD era. And I remember growing up when we think about the peak of the CD era, this is something I still remember to this day. Cause I was in school at the time. I think about three albums that came out right around the same time. You have two hip hop albums. So you have DMX is, and then there was X this December, 1999. And then a couple months later you have NSYNC. They have their no strings attached album, which was still up until Adele's album was the highest first week sale. I think it was just under 3 million. I used to the US and then a couple months after that, you have Eminem drops, Marshall Mathers LP, and roughly from a high level, I believe that NSYNC, as I mentioned to just under 3 million in its first week. Marshall Mathers LP did just under 2 and DMX did a few hundred thousand under 1 million. And just calling those 3, 2, 1 from that perspective, all those artists are pretty big. I don't know if I buy that Eminem was that much less popular than NSYNC at the time, but I think part of the reason was, A, you had these parental advisory stickers on them, which essentially acted like a rated R thing where, okay, it's making you pause when you go to the register. And too, because I was in school. I remember parents of NSYNC fans that were taking their kids out of school to go line up on Tuesday to go to Sam Goody or Strawberries, wherever, buy the album, and then come back in time for C period to start, right? That didn't happen with the parents of Eminem fans, and that did not happen with the parents of DMX fans. So all of these things that may seem like natural commerce are structural things in play when we think back about that, and even to just how the nineties were in general with. Time Warner and all these big companies and the government and the Clinton administration trying to come down on hip hop. We finally now saw it reach its potential. And now when things are starting to dip, everyone now wants to pull it back. [00:25:17] Neil Shah: Totally. So, like, even as late as the late 90s and the early 2000s, there's this cultural penalty on hip hop music that is kind of artificially suppressing sales. I mean, you still see this in the live music industry to this day, whether it's festivals like Rolling Loud or New York City music venues where rappers often have a tougher time.  It's a little harder to put on an arena rap show. It's unfortunate, but partly it's because the insurance rates are higher and it's more costly to put on the show. Why is that? So even to this day, whether on the business side or culturally, there are things that can affect sales, and in streams and whatnot, you're mentioning kind of the, you know, the late 90s, I think back to the early 90s, in a way, the way in which hip hop over indexed, or kind of was buoyed by technology in the form of streaming in the middle of the 2010s, it was like a revenge for 1991 and what obtained in the prior years when rap albums were very popular and were actually selling briskly, but they were underreported along with country also too, they were actually underreported in the pre digitized sound scan era. So there again, you moved from a period when for these cultural or business factors, one genre was kind of artificially held lower, and other genres look like they were, dominating the mindshare of the country. But then lo and behold, we entered the period of SoundScan and suddenly the whole country is listening to NWA, who knew? And so it's always seemed to me like while hip hop may have over indexed in like, you know, 2015 and 2018, it was kind of like almost like payback for 1989 or whatever, but yeah, so like these shifts, you got to take with a grain of salt because, you know, they're constructed a billboard and the industry does the best it can. And it's constantly retooling, how it approaches things. You noted earlier the shifting position on album bundles. It's interesting that they're allowing it back this summer, but now with safeguards, so you don't pull a Travis Scott, presumably. So, you know, it's a work in progress, always, all of these metrics. So you, when you're thinking about these debates or discussions, you do need to take it with a grain of salt. The average person on the street, maybe a rap fan, maybe a rock fan, maybe a post genre music fan. They may not care about the ins and outs of genres going up and down. Journalists may care about it and obviously people in the music industry do. but you know. It is relevant to the business, because it does affect how the business operates and what I mean by that is, you know, at record labels, your job is basically to, sign acts and pursue the hot thing and make money and some, so some of these cultural discussions about how genres are doing definitely have an impact on how the business operates and at the end of the day, the way, you know, the way the music that we hear now, I think of, you know, in earlier periods when hip hop experienced a lull, I don't think this will happen this time, but in earlier periods when hip hop experienced a lull, you know, the boy band era that you mentioned, I think, like around NSYNC and around Britney Spears time, you did see the slight lull in urban music have an impact on A&R budgets. There was a very much a shifting wind in terms of like, you know, money in some cases withdrawn from, like urban A&R budgets and, diverted elsewhere. you know, much like any business does, like diverting resources to where things feel like they're hotter. So my point being, some of these discussions, while the average music fan, may not care as much, they have real world implications. [00:29:16] Dan Runcie: That's the part that frustrates me because a lot of this, as you mentioned, it's chatter for us, we're in this space. We talk to the people, or if you're someone that's a super fan on Twitter, you're Reddit as well. They're probably active, but they have huge. Implications I can't help, but to think about how many of the decisions that are being made about. Which artists to give a particular budget to how much to spend on their music videos, how much to do on all these things. A&R, as you mentioned, they may see some type of cutbacks, some type of impact there. And the other piece of this, that's a bit frustrating is that in lieu of album bundles and bundling with merchandise, which is something that a hip hop, a lot of hip hop artists lead into what we saw on the flip side was artists then combining it with or not even combining, but selling physical albums like vinyl and all the boom that we've seen there. The challenge with vinyl though, is that there has been a limited supply, given the supplies train, the supply chain constraints and some of the materials there. So the record labels do have discretion over who gets allocation for the limited vinyl supply they have and who doesn't and that then creates much more decision making and much more King making essentially on who gets to have the full allotment. And when we see artists, whether it's Harry Styles or Taylor Swift, get all of the. Allotment that's there and you see other artists, whether it's a title, the creator, even a Beyonce that are waiting several weeks, sometimes even months to get theirs. And these are superstar artists in their own right. That are still waiting for it. And when you think deeper about it, half of the people that buy vinyl don't even listen to it. So what is it really? Is it a merch item or is it actually an album [00:31:07] Neil Shah: totally. It's a great example of a Intra business, real world implication of some of these discussions, a record label having to determine. Okay, we got relationships with X, Y, and Z plants in Nashville and in the Czech Republic and, this is the space we got, which artists are we going to prioritize? It matters, I mean, they're making these decisions and it can help certain artists and hurt others. And then if they don't have their physical ready while they're putting out their album, effectively, whoever doesn't have their physical ducks in a row is effectively penalized in terms of their chart placement. So it's very real. one thing that's been going on, You know, we may get on Travis Scott and, his ilk's case for gaming the system with these bundles in that. Earlier micro era, but, you know, 1 thing that's been going on with the pop stars and especially with the K pop stars are all these collectible, collectible CDs and whatnot, which definitely are giving placement to these artists, especially in K pop that they wouldn't otherwise have. So, in this era, when billboard got rid of those bundles, you're seeing, you know, something different going on with Kpop. It basically dominating the charts, or at least the top 10, using all these collectible CDs that then basically drop off. If you look carefully at the streaming numbers for a lot of the K pop artists that hit number 2, number 3, or number 1, the streaming numbers are not very strong. I mean, The lion's share, almost the entire consumption is these collectible CDs, which are, actually de facto merch. So, you got another phenomenon, very similar to rap's phenomenon, where de facto merch is just gaming the charts. [00:32:49] Dan Runcie: We're going to continue to see this, but I am very interested to see how this year's changes will impact things because even if you look at. I don't even think it was Travis Scott's thing that brought it to a head. I'm sure that was in the back of people's minds, but I think it was right after DJ Khaled dropped his album the same day as Tyler the Creator dropped, the album that had earthquake on it, Igor, that's the name of it. We started to see more of it there because obviously Khaled got penalized for energy drinks or whatever he had tried to bundle his albums with, but at the end of the day, they want to bundle it with things that aren't restricted in the same way that others did. So even though in the moment, it was definitely an eye roll type of thing. Now, I'm like, okay, at least there was some type of control and autonomy there that the artists did have. But so much of this preservation of figuring out and having the powers that be tweak and determine the right Metric for album equivalent units, and then even the whole thought about how you have to listen to a song 1250 times on a paid streaming service for that to count as 1 full album sale. You can't even listen to a full album at once a day to then count as that. If you were to do the math there. Right. It really makes you think about the real dynamics at play, because we know for years that the major record labels themselves have wanted to preserve the aspect of an album. And a lot of it does seem like it's this another aspect of this underlying tug of war between them and the DSPs, the streaming services that do want to report on streams and do use that as the primary benchmark of success. And now we're backing into this album equivalent unit metric that has now become normalized that we would never do in any other industry where it's not like Netflix is trying to show DVD equivalent units as a metric of success. [00:34:42] Neil Shah: Yeah, totally. Yeah, I mean, Billboard is continually trying to get these things right. But, you know, it is, that is precisely what the pop stars and the Kpop stars are taking advantage of the fact that the physical albums, have much greater weight than the streams, which right there just, privileges certain genres then hurts, others, you know, like physical sales are not what in hip hop or not, but they are another genre. So, I'm sure they see it as a work in progress to kind of get these things right. [00:35:13] Dan Runcie: Right, and I do acknowledge the work there in many ways. It is a very difficult task. You have a number of competing factors. You're trying to make essentially an advanced metric become the industry standard. And it is going to be an evolving conversation and likely will look different as streaming services continue to gain traction as you mentioned, if we do see a vinyl slowdown at some point, how that may shift things and there will be this continual movement here. Where do you think things are in five years from now, specifically with hip hop? Do you think that the market share continues to slide? Do you think that another genre does become number one? [00:35:50] Neil Shah: That's a great question, it feels like we're in a transitional period right now where lots of genres are thriving at the same time. People talk about music being post genre so much that it's almost become a cliché to, you know, for publicity materials to describe an artist as being genre less, kind of elicits eye rolls at this point. Every artist is post genre at that point. It actually would be more striking if artists stuck to genres, ala Beyonce with her dance music album, which I thought took the opposite road of, focusing on the genre, which was actually refreshing. but so we're in a transitional moment. and so, I mean, the short answer to your question is that it's hard to see where this goes in five years. But, you know, I would imagine that some of the cooling off of hip hop does level off and then maybe we're in a period for a while where, what currently obtains kind of sticks around. I mean, it's entirely possible that the 2000, the rest of the 2000. Twenties could be kind of a transitional, confusing period, barring some, culture shifting huge superstar in one of the genres that somehow changes everything, even in our highly fragmented music landscape. Typically some of the engines for different types of musics going up or down have relied on huge stars changing the game. Whether it's hip hop, you know, hip hop had certain weaknesses in the early 2000s. And, for example, Kanye West, helped revive rap also broadened its audience, broadened rap's audience in a very significant way.  Something that Drake then, continued effectively soccer mom-izing hip hop, you know, like anyone can listen to one dance. I mean, it's not even rap, as an example, and increasingly rappers were singing. So, in the past, when genres have had lulls and then come back to life, it's usually been on the back of these pivotal stars. Well, the reason why it's so hard to really project, like, what we're going to do and what things are going to look like in five years is because music, as you know, like, we're losing the ability for such stars. Even if they're very big to really shift the culture, Morgan Wallen is a massively big star right now and yet much of the country, you know, doesn't listen to Morgan Wallen, you know, doesn't like him for various reasons, et cetera, you know, NBA Young Boy is a massively big artist, especially on YouTube. And yet, most people are not familiar with him. I mean, to give you a better example, even when an artist like Cardi B or Ice Spice has huge hits that, you know, hit the top 10 of the Billboard Hot 100, much of the country does not know that song the way they may have known, You know, a Cyndi Lauper song in another era or an Adele song. So we're in an environment where increasingly, it's so fragmented that it's hard for stars to really dominate in the way that they used to. And so that may also affect whether we see Kurt Cobain like shifts where, you know, where everything changes and then we recognize, Oh, the landscape is different. There's plenty going on in hip hop, whether commercially, you know, an act like Suicide Boys is doing great on the live music circuit. They get almost no media attention, but, in terms of the live music circuit, they can sell concert tickets. there's plenty going on also from a, critically acclaimed point of view, you know, artists like DoJi, you know, are making waves.  It's not that like, you know, Youngboy's doing this thing. We've had work from like Lil Durk. I mean, Metro Boomin is having a great year. Ice Spice has been an exception in terms of being a big breakout star, there's plenty of stuff happening, but it's really rare for that stuff to really dominate, you saw, you know, these two examples are kind of related, but two moments that have been kind of monocultural with the capacity to shift things is obviously like Taylor Swift in this Era's tour, which is something that a lot of people talk about. And then, of course, her getting a platform to ice spice, which was just very interesting and exciting because, wow, this is the biggest platform and it's being given to ice spice. What will happen? Will Ice Spice be able to develop into the kind of star that could, carry on Poppa Smoke's legacy in a different way and indeed populize Drill or will Drill and a lot of these, you know, vibrant rap stars that are on kind of a lower level, will they kind of stay there in this more, in this fragmented kind of multicolored, universe? I think that's like a key question, you know, even Taylor Swift, not to go into Taylor Swift tangent, but, you know, there's been debate, there's been discussion of like, oh, we do have monoculture. There's Taylor Swift, even Taylor Swift only captures a certain part of the American audience. I mean, if you go to a Taylor Swift show, you know, it's not that racially diverse. I'm just putting it like that. not a Wwift hater. I'm just pointing out the fact, you know, so, it's tough to have the monocultural forces that one used to have to create these ships. [00:41:01] Dan Runcie: Right, because I know you mentioned the points earlier about whether or not most people are really hearing Morgan Wallen or they're really hearing NBA Young Boy. And part of that probably applies to these generational superstars to even just with where they are now. You compare a song like Taylor Swift for the antihero compared to Cyndi Lauper time after time or any of these other songs that they did, it probably is less mind share there, but the other point you mentioned, there still are these little moments and these other things that happen that are still noteworthy, even if they're not the big thing. I think that the big thing, whether that's having this huge album that sells 1, 000, 000 in its 1st week or 500, 000 units in its 1st week, given the way that media is going, I still think that is something that does become more and more subject to this power law dynamic, to some extent, where I do think it's still even five years from now will probably be very difficult for an artist not named Drake to be able to bet money and say, yes, oh yeah. That artist will could sell over 500, 000 in the first week. Even Drake hasn't necessarily a hundred percent done that. I mean, he did it with certified lover boy most recently, but, the other two albums he had before this, the joint one with 21 Savage or the honestly, nevermind he did it. So, but he still was able to at least top the charts there. So I do think that. We'll still see success. We'll still see these moments, but almost in the same way that in Hollywood, where I think it's probably pretty unlikely at this point that there's going to be a billion dollar grossing movie. And it's like, Oh, wow, Huh, that's an original story or original concept. Never heard of that one. It's almost always sequel or based on some type of existing IP. And in many ways, Taylor, Drake, Beyonce, Adele are the closest thing you have to existing contemporary IP and music. These are the biggest bets you have, and you do have a few acts here or there that have definitely come into their own SZA's SOS album has clearly done extremely well. It's been great to see her continue to break. Strides and do, and I think there's plenty of stats that show just with the performance of control over the years that there's a lot that is indicating there, but still, even with where SZA is now, there's still a gap between the other artists I mentioned. So, there's levels to this for sure. We'll see growth there, but I still think that we're going to see the most continued bets and the more the budgets as well go towards the Drake's and the Taylor's because that's where the safest bet is for the money spent. [00:43:32] Neil Shah: So it would be fascinating if this period remains more confusing than it usually would and more transitional, partly because ala Hollywood. We, as a culture, rely on this safe, riskless IP instead of, doing the artist development to really help some artists, you know, achieve, get to that next level, you know, it's striking, these artists you're mentioning, Taylor, Drake, they come from a different era. They come from an era that was of the fulcrum, not even the fulcrum, they proceed the streaming era. and they benefited from the branding power of an industry that has changed, dramatically and they remain right now are, you know, some of our biggest stars and it doesn't feel like a hangover yet. These artists are still doing respected work. Drake's numbers are weakening substantially album by album, but, yeah, it will be interesting if, as you're noting, we kind of rely on these folks IP, like, you know, maybe Drake should rerecord all of it. Maybe I wouldn't mind it if Drake rerecorded Take Care For No Reason. Maybe it's so hard to make another Take Care, another masterpiece. Maybe he should just re record it. The point being, some of these stars could linger with us longer than they would because of this effect where, in such an industry that's so fragmented, these are the riskless parties to do business with, whether you're a record label, whether you're a concert promoter, this is where the safety and money is at. And so they could have a longer, you know, there's a perennial question about when Drake will fall off, but maybe some of these artists won't fall off, in this next stretch, but stay in this weaker state as, you know, this other stuff continues to bubble, [00:45:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's almost in the same way where Tom Cruise is now in his 60s. I don't see him stopping Mission Impossible anytime soon. As serious as he's been doing since he was in his early 30s. Denzel's about to drop the Equalizer 3. The man turned 70 next year. [00:45:31] Neil Shah: Indiana Jones, Harrison Ford. [00:45:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, he's 80. [00:45:35] Neil Shah: So, this can be bemoaned. people bemoan this in the Hollywood context, the recycling of IP instead of the development of new stuff. but it's an open question. You just, you never know, you know, there's plenty of vibrant rap being made. There's an entire rage movement that Playboi Carti and other artists have helped inspire, you know, there's just like Ice Spice to my mind follows a little bit. Sonically in the heels of pop spoken certain ways. There are inheritors of the SoundCloud rap era that sadly waned with the passing of, you know, stars like X and Juice WRLD and whatnot. There's stuff going on. You just, you never know, like, music business is a hard one to predict. You can't even predict that confusion will reign because, you know, it's a topsy turvy business and things change. [00:46:26] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. Well, Neil, this was fun. before we close things out, anything you want to plug or let the audience know that you're working on? [00:46:34] Neil Shah: No, I don't think so. Anything you suggest, I don't think there's anything I'd want to plug. [00:46:38] Dan Runcie: Okay. Well, we'll make sure that we link to your most recent Taylor Swift piece in this one, just with the breakdown of the economics. They're not related to this conversation, but a fascinating book in deep dive, obviously considering all the conversations needed to happen to give people a breakdown, not just into that top line number, but the profit margin of a tour of this scale. [00:46:59] Neil Shah: yeah, with the Taylor piece, I'm happy with it. And I was basically trying to do something that's just hard to do. Artists don't talk about their costs and what their deals involved with promoters and booking agents. So very hard to actually ascertain profit. And so what I was trying to do there was just. and it talked to a lot of people about what's reasonable for a superstar and then what's reasonable to assume about the breakdown when it comes to an unusual superstar. So that was kind of, that story, I guess, you know, related to this topic is just, you know, yeah, my attempt to kind of get my head around. It wasn't that article. I did, I think, in October of last year. and so, yeah, this is like an important discussion. and when you want to have in a measured way, you know, like, it's like, another not colleague, but a good guy at Billboard Elias did also a piece, following on Kyle's piece, right? Kind of actually talking to executives about how worried, you know, they are about this stuff. So, yeah, this stuff is hard to predict. So, but yeah, if anything, you could, flag that old piece if you want. [00:48:01] Dan Runcie: Okay, great. No, we'll do Neilm Thanks again. It's been a pleasure. [00:48:05] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast. Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 06 Jul 2023 09:00:00 -0000 The Real Story Behind Hip-Hop's "Decline" full Dan Runcie The media commentary on hip-hop’s decline is stronger than ever. Especially since it took six months for a rap album to top the Billboard 200 in 2023, and no rap song has topped the Hot 100 yet.. Is hip-hop slipping? Or is there more to this story? is slipping or others are merely catching up? To break it all down, I’m joined by The Wall Street Journal’s Neil Shah, who has written about this extensively.  0:40 Our take on hip-hop’s “decline” 4:51 Upcoming albums that may top the charts 8:48 How Billboard charts work 17:40 Hip-hop over indexed when streaming took off 18:30 Was hip-hop held back in the past? 20:26 Implications of chart performance 22:55 Gaming the system with album bundles  32:49 Are album equivalent units the best way to measure success? 35:13 Hip Hop’s market share in 5 years 45:16 Music recycling IP vs. developing new one Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Neil Shah, @NeilShahWSJ This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Neil Shah: While it looks like hip hop is suffering a little bit right now, or in this cooling period, maybe it's tentacles have stretched out So much, it's influences so total that it's actually become the bedrock of a lot of pop music. [00:00:12] Dan Runcie Intro Audio: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:40] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: This episode is about the state of hip hop, which has been quite the topic over the past year. So it was right around this time in 2022, when we started to see articles and stories and reports pop up about hip hop's decline in market share. This is specifically looking at the US listening consumption over time for hip hop artists that were producing tracks. And after a record number of years of growth in hip hop is eventually becoming the most listened to genre of music in the 2010s. We started to see that growth slow down relative to other genres. And there's a number of reasons for this, a number of reasons that are unfair, a number of reasons that require a little bit more digging into and to break it all down. I was joined by Neil Shah from the wall street journal. He's written about this himself. Him and I've talked about this both on and offline, and we decided to bring it together to talk about all the various factors. What does this mean for the music industry? What does it mean for the artist in the industry in terms of the budgets that they get? And is this even fair when we think about all of the factors in place with regards to streaming, where audiences grow, whether hip hop artists and their fans are more likely to be early adopters versus other genres, some of the rules that Billboard and other entities make that influence how these charts get factored in vinyl and a whole lot more. So let's dive into the state of hip hop. [00:02:05] Dan Runcie: All right. We're back for another episode this time. Neil Shah from the wall street journal makes his return. Welcome back. [00:02:11] Neil Shah: Thanks for having me. [00:02:12] Dan Runcie: And today we're going to talk about a topic. Both you and I have written about, thought about and has come to a head this past year. And that's the state of hip hop and where it lies relative to other genres right now. I'm sure many of you have seen the stats dating back as early as last year. When many outlets really started to talk more about hip hop's market share of its overall listening relative to other genres, which genres are growing at faster rates than others, which are declining. And now we're in this place in 2023. We're still as of the end of June, almost six months through the year, not one rap album has topped the Billboard top 200. And I'm pretty sure that no rap song has topped the Billboard hot 100 either. So Neil, what do you make of all of this? [00:03:04] Neil Shah: It's pretty striking that rap has not topped either of these charts, the Hot 100 or the Billboard 200. To put it into some context, in 2019, 17 rap albums Hit number one on the Billboard 200. 17. In 2020, another 17 did. basically last year, we started to see a slowdown on this front where there were fewer number one hits on these two charts in rap and hip hop and R& and then now this year, we have this striking reality that rap has been absent in this way, which I believe it, we haven't seen something like this. Since about 1993. So yeah, think it's generating lots of discussion and varied opinions. Hip hop has long had ups and downs, you know, in the 21st century, there are plenty of lulls, there are plenty of hot periods, and we could be in another lull. But my gut sense at the end of the day is that this does constitute a fairly significant slowing compared to how hot this genre was running, I mean, just a few years ago. I think it's a marked slowdown. And while one can quibble with the fact of not having a number one, because that can easily change, you know what I mean? Like as soon as Travis Scott puts out Utopia, as soon as Drake puts out For All the Dogs, the picture can change slightly. But even all that quibbling aside, I do feel like it's pretty striking that there is a slowdown. [00:04:51] Dan Runcie: Right, and that's a good point, because we could look at the more specific pieces of it. And yeah, if J. Cole, if Travis Scott dropped Utopia, if any of these things happen in the spring, we may not be having the same conversation from a top headline. Oh, let's react to this thing. But even like you said, you named 17 albums from a couple of years ago. So we're talking one every three weeks, essentially that hit that target, if not more, and we're now 24 weeks into the year and we haven't had any. So there's still a pretty big shift, even if you account for the superstar releases. And if we're looking at the artists that are planning to release albums this year, I was looking through at some of the artists that have. Big albums coming out, and these are the only ones that I thought are certified locks to hit number 1 on the billboard. You have Drake's new album, as you mentioned, Travis Scott's Utopia, J. Cole's The Fall Off, if he drops it this year, Lil Wayne, I think there's another Carter coming, Lil Uzi Vert, who I believe is dropping pretty soon, so he could potentially be the 1st, and then after that, And I hate to say this, but maybe Cardi B. I still think that she's pretty strong, but we'll see it. I say maybe more. So we'll see if she drops an album. And I say maybe to Nicki Minaj too, while I have a bit more confidence in her dropping an album, her last album went number two, second to Travis Scott back in 2018, but it's also been a long time. And some of the other artists who are a few more fan favorites, like Pusha T or A$AP Rocky Rick Ross, even Chance the rapper. Great artist. But it's been a while since any of those artists, if ever have topped the billboard. 200 for album charts. I know Ross and others have in the past, but, so there's a lot of fragmentation. There were, there's still are artists have a shot, beloved albums, but they're not reaching this particular milestone of how people view mainstream success. Yeah, the [00:06:46] Neil Shah: question of who's a lock for number one in the rap community has gotten a little bit more complicated than maybe a few years ago. Some of these people may not be a lock. [00:06:58] Dan Runcie: Do you think anyone I named isn't a lock. [00:07:00] Neil Shah: Drake is obviously a lock. Travis, I would think would be a lock. Vert comes out on Friday, that's a pretty large artist and a highly anticipated album, but I'm not entirely sure. I'm not entirely sure that that would be number one. I'm not sure about Nikki. I would think Cardi, who I believe has been having 2023 in the frame, I would think that Cardi B would be number one. It's just a little bit more complicated than especially with projects from the likes of Pusha T and whatnot. Yeah, there's definitely not a guarantee that even these stars and superstars will perform the way they did. Of course, that's up to the vicissitudes of do they have a hot single or not? How much mindshare are they capturing, you know, these things change from year to year. All things considered, it does feel like, you know, things. I'd be worried about the downside of people being a little bit weaker. We just had Gunna, for example. Gunna, you know, came out with an album. It's been doing pretty well. his mentor Young Thug actually also just released an album. There's a new Metro Boomin version of it that I think came out today or yesterday. But look Gunna back in 2022, last year, hit number one. [00:08:19] Dan Runcie: Outsold the Weeknd [00:08:20] Neil Shah: and what happened this year with this album they're gonna just put out, it hit number three. And even more than that, just the EAU unit figure, the equivalent album units, 85K, 85, 000 is decent, but not the strongest showing. So, I think there is a question about when these stars come back, just how well will they do as the surrounding environment for them is, creating what we're talking about, [00:08:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think there's a few factors here, and I do want to call them out. Billboard, who does reflect the charts, they released a article, 5 Reasons Why a rap album has yet to top the charts and there are 5 reasons are I'll read them here. The 1st is a lack of stars essentially in a fragments in a fragmented landscape. There's so many artists that don't necessarily need mainstream success that billboard relied on. And I think that could be true to an extent. You have their 2nd, 1 here, which is growth for hip hop itself is only up 6. 3% compared to country and Latin, which are growing much faster. I have some thoughts on that, but that was their 2nd point. They made the 3rd, which is related to Gunna here. They talked about guns, violence, drug abuse and courtroom legal battles as well that have slowed down or halted the production of many promising stars. Whether you look at XXXTentacion, Juice WRLD, Pop Smoke, and then you look at Gunna and Thug and others that have been battling legal challenges as well. The fourth one they mentioned is just stagnation. At the charts, which I think may be a bigger thing where if you look at the charts this year, at least for the billboard 200, it's been SZA, it's been Morgan Wallen and a little bit of Miley Cyrus. And that's pretty much been it for most of the year. So it's not even the way that it was in the pre pandemic years where every week there was a new album that seemed to have its glory moment. It's the same artists that are staying at the top. And in some ways, it almost feels a little bit like a throwback to days before streaming when we saw a little bit more stagnation there. And then their 5th reason is not enough dance music because they talked about albums like Renaissance or Drake's Honestly, Nevermind, Dua Lipa and Future Nostalgia and how they feel like post pandemic people want to get out there and how a lot of hip hop music has been a much more slow chill, especially in the streaming era. And I think that each of those are valid points, but I think there's a few other things that weren't mentioned in billboards article that they themselves as the entity that decides these things has a big influence. We mentioned several of those Pre pandemic years. 1 of the biggest things is how billboard itself.  Change the rules and album bundles is a big thing. Ironically, they're actually going to be coming back with album bundles in a few months, but this was their way to be able to help preserve the sale of the album and have artists combine their album with a merch item, whether it's a T shirt or some other type of item. But like anything, people started to game the system and people felt like it wasn't necessarily about album sales. It was more about people trying to sell these items. And I think we saw that most to extreme degree with what Travis Scott did with Astroworld, where he literally had an e commerce machine that was running, in perpetuity to help make sure that album almost doubled in its expectations of what people thought we just hadn't seen that much of a outpaced growth, but he saw the way the system was and we'd into it. So I think that's one thing. That's a big factor, a second thing that I look at is just what we consider hip hop on these charts, because of course, billboard itself is it's reporting things based on us listenership. But we know that Latin music is very popular as well. Just considering how well bad bunny did on the charts. But as you and I've talked about, bad bunny is labeled as Latin. He's not labeled as the actual genre that he performs. He's more categorized based on the region he's from. And for all intents and purposes, he considers himself a rapper. He considers himself a hip hop artist. So if hip hop was given some of that region agnostic glory that pop music or others get, maybe we would see, maybe we would even be having this conversation and we think about the global aspect of it. So those are two things. There's a few more, but I wanted to get your thoughts on those. [00:12:44] Neil Shah: Yeah. So let's start with that last one, what if hip hop is suffering from its own success, hip hop has had booms. For decades now, but what we saw in this back half of the 2010s was something fairly special and now we're at this juncture right now and so it just raises the question of like it looks like we're in a cooling period for hip hop, but hip hop is It's tentacles are reaching into, I mean, almost all of the other genres that are capturing the imagination of music fans right now. I mean, often Morgan Wall in the country star sings with rap like cadences. one reason why [00:13:25] Dan Runcie: Hip hop sounding beats too. [00:13:27] Neil Shah: Yeah, even the tracks hip hop. Some of the bedrock, some of the sonic structures of Morgan Wallen's music are inherently, deeply hip hop. One reason why BTS and a new crop of Kpop stars have thrived so much, especially in the U.S., is their hip hop fluid. You can go down the list. I mean, the regional Mexican music craze that's going on right now. there's a ton of hip hop there, reggaeton, Afro beats. and then of course, Latin music and figures like Bad Bunny, Who's rapping and due to billboard nomenclature is categorized as a Latin artist, so one could look at the phenomenon differently and think, actually, while it looks like hip hop is suffering a little bit right now, or in this cooling period, maybe it's tentacles have stretched out So much, it's influences so total that it's actually become the bedrock of a lot of pop music. And then while rap stars are not thriving the way they did, say, between 2016 and 2019, in particular, because that's the period we're coming down off of, one could argue that it's. In all of these other places. And in fact, in this age of, hip hopping everywhere, of everyone sing rapping, essentially the boundaries between quote unquote core hip hop, what Billboard would categorize as hip hop for the purpose of the charts, and a lot of these other genres is getting very fuzzy. So, one party could look at the phenomenon before us and think, weakness, in hip hop, another way of looking at it would be an increased fuzziness between hip hop and these neighboring genres. And so that that could be, that could be a major factor here. and yet at the same time, you know, something I think about a lot. what is the right way to think about this? And I'm really of 2 minds, like, I'm kind of in a conflicted space where on 1 hand, I don't know whether hip hop's influence is what we're watching is this kind of dominance on a new level, hip hop being a victim of its own success and essentially being everywhere or whether, you know, there really is some kind of transitional period afoot, you know, 1 thing to keep in mind is just how hot the 2010s and it particularly the back half was just think about how much era defining music was made in this period, incorporating R&B to Beyonce, Rihanna, Kanye West. The hubbub over Life of pablo, Drake views, you know, Frank Ocean, Kendrick Lamar. I'm just talking about the top level. We're not even talking about the medium tier of excellent rappers and R&B stars beneath that Childish Gambino. There was a lot going on during this period. And so, despite, some of the other factors that we're talking about and that we'll talk about, I feel like that's what you gotta compare it to. And so, to my mind, and I'm getting to actually a 2nd point in the billboard article. it does feel like we're help where we've come from a unipolar hip hop dominated universe using the strictest definition of hip hop to something. That's more multipolar and really. That can be a function of time and development, i.e. hip hop's success. Another good point that I think the Billboard article raised was just, you know, as a genre becomes so dominant, how much room is left? Once you're king of the mountain, how much growth is there left in the shoe? I mean, mathematically, your growth is going to, slow down. I come across this when I think about vinyl sales, you know, for years now, vinyl has been hot, but naturally, mathematically, as your base gets bigger, and we're talking about lots and lots of sales, your growth rates slow down. So, like, this is just kind of an analogy, but as hip hop gets so dominant, there's something natural about not just a genre having slower periods in a cyclical fashion, which is a slightly separate thing, but there's also something natural about the genre at this point actually just I'm losing some steam for purely mathematical reasons. [00:17:40] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you mentioned the back half of the last decade as being a high point for hip hop, because here's some important stats that influence this. Right in the middle of the 2010s is when we saw this shift is when streaming started to take off. Apple Music launches Spotify really kicks into gear. Of course, they launched in the US in 2011, but things really came into focus in 2014 and then in November, 2014. That's when the billboard 200 starts counting streams and they've altered the formula a little bit, but it's roughly been the same where it's been anywhere from around 1, 250 to 1, 500 or even more if it's a free ad supported stream. But that's when they started counting streams at that particular point, Spotify had 15 million paid users and 60 million overall. And then, four years later by 2018, they have 96 million paid users. And so if we go back to that point, so this is obviously when Travis Scott was releasing Astroworld, when Drake released God's Plan, as you mentioned, all these hip hop albums are doing extremely well, but there was a large. Index on hip hop fans. And as we've seen when technology and time again, hip hop fans as a genre do tend to over index and their early adopters with new technology. We saw that with Spotify and the various streaming services, especially where their user base was. And you also saw that as well with social media with Twitter and places like that. Where were the genres that people were talking about most on these platforms? It was hip hop. So there was this run of hip hop getting this lead. That other genres didn't have him because it over indexed early. You saw this outsized performance, especially as record sales, traditional, pure album sales started to dip a bit, but since then, you're now looking in this post quarantine phase and Spotify's growth is, paid subscriber amount is more than doubled since 2018, it's now over 200 million paid subscribers. And most of that growth came less from hip hop fans, but more from everyone else. So as we look and see the growth of whether it's Latin music, music in Africa, music in Asia, even country music within the US, you're looking at the growth of Spotify and the growth of all these streaming services and how that impacts charts and performance. So even though hip hop listening is still growing. In the way that we've seen it record labels in the industry often do report things as a zero sum game in a lot of ways. So because of that, even though the growth is slowing down, it's still growing. It's just not growing as fast as these other genres that are now having their late 2000 late 2010s hip hop moment [00:20:26] Neil Shah: Totally would. so yeah, when I looked into this topic last fall. Basically, fall was upon us in 2022, and it looked like hip hop's chart performance was relatively weak, so I wanted to look into this topic at that point. One of the interviews I did was actually with the head of the data tracker, Luminate, and this is definitely one thing that they noted, which is hip hop fans. This is an important point, hip hop fans, were early adopters for streaming. So they over indexed and kind of led the way during an earlier stage of streaming adoption in precisely in the middle of the 2010s. And so, yes, you're right that you're, seeing, a shift here as the base of the streaming universe essentially becomes more varied. And especially during the pandemic, we saw these significant jumps with country and Latin music, partly that's a Morgan Wall in effect. Partly the Latin music numbers are juiced by Bad Bunny, these gargantuan artists in terms of their numbers, but it's a broader phenomenon of these genres. And their fans being a bigger part of the streaming pie and as a result, partly because of that hip hop share of streaming, not overall music consumption, but hip hop market share of us streaming is yes, like period after period, year after year is dipping as we now have a, actually a fuller picture. A more varied streaming audience. so that's definitely a major factor and it's you know, part of why country and Latin music in particular have gotten the lifted that they've got of late. One thing to keep in mind throughout all of this is that while we're talking about, hip hop slowing, at least according to these chart metrics and streaming market shares and whatnot, it's always worth mentioning or noting that it's market share still outstrips these other genres by a wide margin, not just Latin and country, which, you know, Latin's numbers in the billboard math are, have always been weirdly low, frankly. They seem lower than they should be, but they're fairly low. I mean, we're talking like, right? Six, seven, eight percent, just neighborhood ballpark in terms of market share of U. S. consumption compared to hip hop, which is still outpacing. [00:22:46] Dan Runcie: In the high 20s, Yeah. [00:22:48] Neil Shah: Right. So it's just worth keeping in mind how much of a distance there still is between hip hop and some of these other genres. [00:22:56] Dan Runcie: And this dynamic as well made me think about other times, even before streaming where distribution and means have impacted which genres were more popular. And in a lot of ways, I've often thought that streaming's ability to lower the entry barriers and to eliminate the gatekeepers, not completely eliminate, but to lessen their power is what enabled hip hop artists and artists from other genres to realize their power. And it made me think back to times in the CD era. And I remember growing up when we think about the peak of the CD era, this is something I still remember to this day. Cause I was in school at the time. I think about three albums that came out right around the same time. You have two hip hop albums. So you have DMX is, and then there was X this December, 1999. And then a couple months later you have NSYNC. They have their no strings attached album, which was still up until Adele's album was the highest first week sale. I think it was just under 3 million. I used to the US and then a couple months after that, you have Eminem drops, Marshall Mathers LP, and roughly from a high level, I believe that NSYNC, as I mentioned to just under 3 million in its first week. Marshall Mathers LP did just under 2 and DMX did a few hundred thousand under 1 million. And just calling those 3, 2, 1 from that perspective, all those artists are pretty big. I don't know if I buy that Eminem was that much less popular than NSYNC at the time, but I think part of the reason was, A, you had these parental advisory stickers on them, which essentially acted like a rated R thing where, okay, it's making you pause when you go to the register. And too, because I was in school. I remember parents of NSYNC fans that were taking their kids out of school to go line up on Tuesday to go to Sam Goody or Strawberries, wherever, buy the album, and then come back in time for C period to start, right? That didn't happen with the parents of Eminem fans, and that did not happen with the parents of DMX fans. So all of these things that may seem like natural commerce are structural things in play when we think back about that, and even to just how the nineties were in general with. Time Warner and all these big companies and the government and the Clinton administration trying to come down on hip hop. We finally now saw it reach its potential. And now when things are starting to dip, everyone now wants to pull it back. [00:25:17] Neil Shah: Totally. So, like, even as late as the late 90s and the early 2000s, there's this cultural penalty on hip hop music that is kind of artificially suppressing sales. I mean, you still see this in the live music industry to this day, whether it's festivals like Rolling Loud or New York City music venues where rappers often have a tougher time.  It's a little harder to put on an arena rap show. It's unfortunate, but partly it's because the insurance rates are higher and it's more costly to put on the show. Why is that? So even to this day, whether on the business side or culturally, there are things that can affect sales, and in streams and whatnot, you're mentioning kind of the, you know, the late 90s, I think back to the early 90s, in a way, the way in which hip hop over indexed, or kind of was buoyed by technology in the form of streaming in the middle of the 2010s, it was like a revenge for 1991 and what obtained in the prior years when rap albums were very popular and were actually selling briskly, but they were underreported along with country also too, they were actually underreported in the pre digitized sound scan era. So there again, you moved from a period when for these cultural or business factors, one genre was kind of artificially held lower, and other genres look like they were, dominating the mindshare of the country. But then lo and behold, we entered the period of SoundScan and suddenly the whole country is listening to NWA, who knew? And so it's always seemed to me like while hip hop may have over indexed in like, you know, 2015 and 2018, it was kind of like almost like payback for 1989 or whatever, but yeah, so like these shifts, you got to take with a grain of salt because, you know, they're constructed a billboard and the industry does the best it can. And it's constantly retooling, how it approaches things. You noted earlier the shifting position on album bundles. It's interesting that they're allowing it back this summer, but now with safeguards, so you don't pull a Travis Scott, presumably. So, you know, it's a work in progress, always, all of these metrics. So you, when you're thinking about these debates or discussions, you do need to take it with a grain of salt. The average person on the street, maybe a rap fan, maybe a rock fan, maybe a post genre music fan. They may not care about the ins and outs of genres going up and down. Journalists may care about it and obviously people in the music industry do. but you know. It is relevant to the business, because it does affect how the business operates and what I mean by that is, you know, at record labels, your job is basically to, sign acts and pursue the hot thing and make money and some, so some of these cultural discussions about how genres are doing definitely have an impact on how the business operates and at the end of the day, the way, you know, the way the music that we hear now, I think of, you know, in earlier periods when hip hop experienced a lull, I don't think this will happen this time, but in earlier periods when hip hop experienced a lull, you know, the boy band era that you mentioned, I think, like around NSYNC and around Britney Spears time, you did see the slight lull in urban music have an impact on A&R budgets. There was a very much a shifting wind in terms of like, you know, money in some cases withdrawn from, like urban A&R budgets and, diverted elsewhere. you know, much like any business does, like diverting resources to where things feel like they're hotter. So my point being, some of these discussions, while the average music fan, may not care as much, they have real world implications. [00:29:16] Dan Runcie: That's the part that frustrates me because a lot of this, as you mentioned, it's chatter for us, we're in this space. We talk to the people, or if you're someone that's a super fan on Twitter, you're Reddit as well. They're probably active, but they have huge. Implications I can't help, but to think about how many of the decisions that are being made about. Which artists to give a particular budget to how much to spend on their music videos, how much to do on all these things. A&R, as you mentioned, they may see some type of cutbacks, some type of impact there. And the other piece of this, that's a bit frustrating is that in lieu of album bundles and bundling with merchandise, which is something that a hip hop, a lot of hip hop artists lead into what we saw on the flip side was artists then combining it with or not even combining, but selling physical albums like vinyl and all the boom that we've seen there. The challenge with vinyl though, is that there has been a limited supply, given the supplies train, the supply chain constraints and some of the materials there. So the record labels do have discretion over who gets allocation for the limited vinyl supply they have and who doesn't and that then creates much more decision making and much more King making essentially on who gets to have the full allotment. And when we see artists, whether it's Harry Styles or Taylor Swift, get all of the. Allotment that's there and you see other artists, whether it's a title, the creator, even a Beyonce that are waiting several weeks, sometimes even months to get theirs. And these are superstar artists in their own right. That are still waiting for it. And when you think deeper about it, half of the people that buy vinyl don't even listen to it. So what is it really? Is it a merch item or is it actually an album [00:31:07] Neil Shah: totally. It's a great example of a Intra business, real world implication of some of these discussions, a record label having to determine. Okay, we got relationships with X, Y, and Z plants in Nashville and in the Czech Republic and, this is the space we got, which artists are we going to prioritize? It matters, I mean, they're making these decisions and it can help certain artists and hurt others. And then if they don't have their physical ready while they're putting out their album, effectively, whoever doesn't have their physical ducks in a row is effectively penalized in terms of their chart placement. So it's very real. one thing that's been going on, You know, we may get on Travis Scott and, his ilk's case for gaming the system with these bundles in that. Earlier micro era, but, you know, 1 thing that's been going on with the pop stars and especially with the K pop stars are all these collectible, collectible CDs and whatnot, which definitely are giving placement to these artists, especially in K pop that they wouldn't otherwise have. So, in this era, when billboard got rid of those bundles, you're seeing, you know, something different going on with Kpop. It basically dominating the charts, or at least the top 10, using all these collectible CDs that then basically drop off. If you look carefully at the streaming numbers for a lot of the K pop artists that hit number 2, number 3, or number 1, the streaming numbers are not very strong. I mean, The lion's share, almost the entire consumption is these collectible CDs, which are, actually de facto merch. So, you got another phenomenon, very similar to rap's phenomenon, where de facto merch is just gaming the charts. [00:32:49] Dan Runcie: We're going to continue to see this, but I am very interested to see how this year's changes will impact things because even if you look at. I don't even think it was Travis Scott's thing that brought it to a head. I'm sure that was in the back of people's minds, but I think it was right after DJ Khaled dropped his album the same day as Tyler the Creator dropped, the album that had earthquake on it, Igor, that's the name of it. We started to see more of it there because obviously Khaled got penalized for energy drinks or whatever he had tried to bundle his albums with, but at the end of the day, they want to bundle it with things that aren't restricted in the same way that others did. So even though in the moment, it was definitely an eye roll type of thing. Now, I'm like, okay, at least there was some type of control and autonomy there that the artists did have. But so much of this preservation of figuring out and having the powers that be tweak and determine the right Metric for album equivalent units, and then even the whole thought about how you have to listen to a song 1250 times on a paid streaming service for that to count as 1 full album sale. You can't even listen to a full album at once a day to then count as that. If you were to do the math there. Right. It really makes you think about the real dynamics at play, because we know for years that the major record labels themselves have wanted to preserve the aspect of an album. And a lot of it does seem like it's this another aspect of this underlying tug of war between them and the DSPs, the streaming services that do want to report on streams and do use that as the primary benchmark of success. And now we're backing into this album equivalent unit metric that has now become normalized that we would never do in any other industry where it's not like Netflix is trying to show DVD equivalent units as a metric of success. [00:34:42] Neil Shah: Yeah, totally. Yeah, I mean, Billboard is continually trying to get these things right. But, you know, it is, that is precisely what the pop stars and the Kpop stars are taking advantage of the fact that the physical albums, have much greater weight than the streams, which right there just, privileges certain genres then hurts, others, you know, like physical sales are not what in hip hop or not, but they are another genre. So, I'm sure they see it as a work in progress to kind of get these things right. [00:35:13] Dan Runcie: Right, and I do acknowledge the work there in many ways. It is a very difficult task. You have a number of competing factors. You're trying to make essentially an advanced metric become the industry standard. And it is going to be an evolving conversation and likely will look different as streaming services continue to gain traction as you mentioned, if we do see a vinyl slowdown at some point, how that may shift things and there will be this continual movement here. Where do you think things are in five years from now, specifically with hip hop? Do you think that the market share continues to slide? Do you think that another genre does become number one? [00:35:50] Neil Shah: That's a great question, it feels like we're in a transitional period right now where lots of genres are thriving at the same time. People talk about music being post genre so much that it's almost become a cliché to, you know, for publicity materials to describe an artist as being genre less, kind of elicits eye rolls at this point. Every artist is post genre at that point. It actually would be more striking if artists stuck to genres, ala Beyonce with her dance music album, which I thought took the opposite road of, focusing on the genre, which was actually refreshing. but so we're in a transitional moment. and so, I mean, the short answer to your question is that it's hard to see where this goes in five years. But, you know, I would imagine that some of the cooling off of hip hop does level off and then maybe we're in a period for a while where, what currently obtains kind of sticks around. I mean, it's entirely possible that the 2000, the rest of the 2000. Twenties could be kind of a transitional, confusing period, barring some, culture shifting huge superstar in one of the genres that somehow changes everything, even in our highly fragmented music landscape. Typically some of the engines for different types of musics going up or down have relied on huge stars changing the game. Whether it's hip hop, you know, hip hop had certain weaknesses in the early 2000s. And, for example, Kanye West, helped revive rap also broadened its audience, broadened rap's audience in a very significant way.  Something that Drake then, continued effectively soccer mom-izing hip hop, you know, like anyone can listen to one dance. I mean, it's not even rap, as an example, and increasingly rappers were singing. So, in the past, when genres have had lulls and then come back to life, it's usually been on the back of these pivotal stars. Well, the reason why it's so hard to really project, like, what we're going to do and what things are going to look like in five years is because music, as you know, like, we're losing the ability for such stars. Even if they're very big to really shift the culture, Morgan Wallen is a massively big star right now and yet much of the country, you know, doesn't listen to Morgan Wallen, you know, doesn't like him for various reasons, et cetera, you know, NBA Young Boy is a massively big artist, especially on YouTube. And yet, most people are not familiar with him. I mean, to give you a better example, even when an artist like Cardi B or Ice Spice has huge hits that, you know, hit the top 10 of the Billboard Hot 100, much of the country does not know that song the way they may have known, You know, a Cyndi Lauper song in another era or an Adele song. So we're in an environment where increasingly, it's so fragmented that it's hard for stars to really dominate in the way that they used to. And so that may also affect whether we see Kurt Cobain like shifts where, you know, where everything changes and then we recognize, Oh, the landscape is different. There's plenty going on in hip hop, whether commercially, you know, an act like Suicide Boys is doing great on the live music circuit. They get almost no media attention, but, in terms of the live music circuit, they can sell concert tickets. there's plenty going on also from a, critically acclaimed point of view, you know, artists like DoJi, you know, are making waves.  It's not that like, you know, Youngboy's doing this thing. We've had work from like Lil Durk. I mean, Metro Boomin is having a great year. Ice Spice has been an exception in terms of being a big breakout star, there's plenty of stuff happening, but it's really rare for that stuff to really dominate, you saw, you know, these two examples are kind of related, but two moments that have been kind of monocultural with the capacity to shift things is obviously like Taylor Swift in this Era's tour, which is something that a lot of people talk about. And then, of course, her getting a platform to ice spice, which was just very interesting and exciting because, wow, this is the biggest platform and it's being given to ice spice. What will happen? Will Ice Spice be able to develop into the kind of star that could, carry on Poppa Smoke's legacy in a different way and indeed populize Drill or will Drill and a lot of these, you know, vibrant rap stars that are on kind of a lower level, will they kind of stay there in this more, in this fragmented kind of multicolored, universe? I think that's like a key question, you know, even Taylor Swift, not to go into Taylor Swift tangent, but, you know, there's been debate, there's been discussion of like, oh, we do have monoculture. There's Taylor Swift, even Taylor Swift only captures a certain part of the American audience. I mean, if you go to a Taylor Swift show, you know, it's not that racially diverse. I'm just putting it like that. not a Wwift hater. I'm just pointing out the fact, you know, so, it's tough to have the monocultural forces that one used to have to create these ships. [00:41:01] Dan Runcie: Right, because I know you mentioned the points earlier about whether or not most people are really hearing Morgan Wallen or they're really hearing NBA Young Boy. And part of that probably applies to these generational superstars to even just with where they are now. You compare a song like Taylor Swift for the antihero compared to Cyndi Lauper time after time or any of these other songs that they did, it probably is less mind share there, but the other point you mentioned, there still are these little moments and these other things that happen that are still noteworthy, even if they're not the big thing. I think that the big thing, whether that's having this huge album that sells 1, 000, 000 in its 1st week or 500, 000 units in its 1st week, given the way that media is going, I still think that is something that does become more and more subject to this power law dynamic, to some extent, where I do think it's still even five years from now will probably be very difficult for an artist not named Drake to be able to bet money and say, yes, oh yeah. That artist will could sell over 500, 000 in the first week. Even Drake hasn't necessarily a hundred percent done that. I mean, he did it with certified lover boy most recently, but, the other two albums he had before this, the joint one with 21 Savage or the honestly, nevermind he did it. So, but he still was able to at least top the charts there. So I do think that. We'll still see success. We'll still see these moments, but almost in the same way that in Hollywood, where I think it's probably pretty unlikely at this point that there's going to be a billion dollar grossing movie. And it's like, Oh, wow, Huh, that's an original story or original concept. Never heard of that one. It's almost always sequel or based on some type of existing IP. And in many ways, Taylor, Drake, Beyonce, Adele are the closest thing you have to existing contemporary IP and music. These are the biggest bets you have, and you do have a few acts here or there that have definitely come into their own SZA's SOS album has clearly done extremely well. It's been great to see her continue to break. Strides and do, and I think there's plenty of stats that show just with the performance of control over the years that there's a lot that is indicating there, but still, even with where SZA is now, there's still a gap between the other artists I mentioned. So, there's levels to this for sure. We'll see growth there, but I still think that we're going to see the most continued bets and the more the budgets as well go towards the Drake's and the Taylor's because that's where the safest bet is for the money spent. [00:43:32] Neil Shah: So it would be fascinating if this period remains more confusing than it usually would and more transitional, partly because ala Hollywood. We, as a culture, rely on this safe, riskless IP instead of, doing the artist development to really help some artists, you know, achieve, get to that next level, you know, it's striking, these artists you're mentioning, Taylor, Drake, they come from a different era. They come from an era that was of the fulcrum, not even the fulcrum, they proceed the streaming era. and they benefited from the branding power of an industry that has changed, dramatically and they remain right now are, you know, some of our biggest stars and it doesn't feel like a hangover yet. These artists are still doing respected work. Drake's numbers are weakening substantially album by album, but, yeah, it will be interesting if, as you're noting, we kind of rely on these folks IP, like, you know, maybe Drake should rerecord all of it. Maybe I wouldn't mind it if Drake rerecorded Take Care For No Reason. Maybe it's so hard to make another Take Care, another masterpiece. Maybe he should just re record it. The point being, some of these stars could linger with us longer than they would because of this effect where, in such an industry that's so fragmented, these are the riskless parties to do business with, whether you're a record label, whether you're a concert promoter, this is where the safety and money is at. And so they could have a longer, you know, there's a perennial question about when Drake will fall off, but maybe some of these artists won't fall off, in this next stretch, but stay in this weaker state as, you know, this other stuff continues to bubble, [00:45:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's almost in the same way where Tom Cruise is now in his 60s. I don't see him stopping Mission Impossible anytime soon. As serious as he's been doing since he was in his early 30s. Denzel's about to drop the Equalizer 3. The man turned 70 next year. [00:45:31] Neil Shah: Indiana Jones, Harrison Ford. [00:45:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, he's 80. [00:45:35] Neil Shah: So, this can be bemoaned. people bemoan this in the Hollywood context, the recycling of IP instead of the development of new stuff. but it's an open question. You just, you never know, you know, there's plenty of vibrant rap being made. There's an entire rage movement that Playboi Carti and other artists have helped inspire, you know, there's just like Ice Spice to my mind follows a little bit. Sonically in the heels of pop spoken certain ways. There are inheritors of the SoundCloud rap era that sadly waned with the passing of, you know, stars like X and Juice WRLD and whatnot. There's stuff going on. You just, you never know, like, music business is a hard one to predict. You can't even predict that confusion will reign because, you know, it's a topsy turvy business and things change. [00:46:26] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. Well, Neil, this was fun. before we close things out, anything you want to plug or let the audience know that you're working on? [00:46:34] Neil Shah: No, I don't think so. Anything you suggest, I don't think there's anything I'd want to plug. [00:46:38] Dan Runcie: Okay. Well, we'll make sure that we link to your most recent Taylor Swift piece in this one, just with the breakdown of the economics. They're not related to this conversation, but a fascinating book in deep dive, obviously considering all the conversations needed to happen to give people a breakdown, not just into that top line number, but the profit margin of a tour of this scale. [00:46:59] Neil Shah: yeah, with the Taylor piece, I'm happy with it. And I was basically trying to do something that's just hard to do. Artists don't talk about their costs and what their deals involved with promoters and booking agents. So very hard to actually ascertain profit. And so what I was trying to do there was just. and it talked to a lot of people about what's reasonable for a superstar and then what's reasonable to assume about the breakdown when it comes to an unusual superstar. So that was kind of, that story, I guess, you know, related to this topic is just, you know, yeah, my attempt to kind of get my head around. It wasn't that article. I did, I think, in October of last year. and so, yeah, this is like an important discussion. and when you want to have in a measured way, you know, like, it's like, another not colleague, but a good guy at Billboard Elias did also a piece, following on Kyle's piece, right? Kind of actually talking to executives about how worried, you know, they are about this stuff. So, yeah, this stuff is hard to predict. So, but yeah, if anything, you could, flag that old piece if you want. [00:48:01] Dan Runcie: Okay, great. No, we'll do Neilm Thanks again. It's been a pleasure. [00:48:05] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast. Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. The media commentary on hip-hop’s decline is stronger than ever. Especially since it took six months for a rap album to top the Billboard 200 in 2023, and no rap song has topped the Hot 100 yet..


Is hip-hop slipping? Or is there more to this story? is slipping or others are merely catching up?


To break it all down, I’m joined by The Wall Street Journal’s Neil Shah, who has written about this extensively. 


0:40 Our take on hip-hop’s “decline”

4:51 Upcoming albums that may top the charts

8:48 How Billboard charts work

17:40 Hip-hop over indexed when streaming took off

18:30 Was hip-hop held back in the past?

20:26 Implications of chart performance

22:55 Gaming the system with album bundles 

32:49 Are album equivalent units the best way to measure success?

35:13 Hip Hop’s market share in 5 years

45:16 Music recycling IP vs. developing new one


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Neil Shah, @NeilShahWSJ


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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Neil Shah: While it looks like hip hop is suffering a little bit right now, or in this cooling period, maybe it's tentacles have stretched out So much, it's influences so total that it's actually become the bedrock of a lot of pop music.

[00:00:12] Dan Runcie Intro Audio: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:40] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: This episode is about the state of hip hop, which has been quite the topic over the past year. So it was right around this time in 2022, when we started to see articles and stories and reports pop up about hip hop's decline in market share. This is specifically looking at the US listening consumption over time for hip hop artists that were producing tracks.

And after a record number of years of growth in hip hop is eventually becoming the most listened to genre of music in the 2010s. We started to see that growth slow down relative to other genres. And there's a number of reasons for this, a number of reasons that are unfair, a number of reasons that require a little bit more digging into and to break it all down.

I was joined by Neil Shah from the wall street journal. He's written about this himself. Him and I've talked about this both on and offline, and we decided to bring it together to talk about all the various factors. What does this mean for the music industry? What does it mean for the artist in the industry in terms of the budgets that they get?

And is this even fair when we think about all of the factors in place with regards to streaming, where audiences grow, whether hip hop artists and their fans are more likely to be early adopters versus other genres, some of the rules that Billboard and other entities make that influence how these charts get factored in vinyl and a whole lot more. So let's dive into the state of hip hop.

[00:02:05] Dan Runcie: All right. We're back for another episode this time. Neil Shah from the wall street journal makes his return. Welcome back.

[00:02:11] Neil Shah: Thanks for having me.

[00:02:12] Dan Runcie: And today we're going to talk about a topic. Both you and I have written about, thought about and has come to a head this past year. And that's the state of hip hop and where it lies relative to other genres right now.

I'm sure many of you have seen the stats dating back as early as last year. When many outlets really started to talk more about hip hop's market share of its overall listening relative to other genres, which genres are growing at faster rates than others, which are declining. And now we're in this place in 2023.

We're still as of the end of June, almost six months through the year, not one rap album has topped the Billboard top 200. And I'm pretty sure that no rap song has topped the Billboard hot 100 either. So Neil, what do you make of all of this?

[00:03:04] Neil Shah: It's pretty striking that rap has not topped either of these charts, the Hot 100 or the Billboard 200. To put it into some context, in 2019, 17 rap albums Hit number one on the Billboard 200. 17. In 2020, another 17 did. basically last year, we started to see a slowdown on this front where there were fewer number one hits on these two charts in rap and hip hop and R& and then now this year, we have this striking reality that rap has been absent in this way, which I believe it, we haven't seen something like this. Since about 1993. So yeah, think it's generating lots of discussion and varied opinions. Hip hop has long had ups and downs, you know, in the 21st century, there are plenty of lulls, there are plenty of hot periods, and we could be in another lull. But my gut sense at the end of the day is that this does constitute a fairly significant slowing compared to how hot this genre was running, I mean, just a few years ago. I think it's a marked slowdown. And while one can quibble with the fact of not having a number one, because that can easily change, you know what I mean?

Like as soon as Travis Scott puts out Utopia, as soon as Drake puts out For All the Dogs, the picture can change slightly. But even all that quibbling aside, I do feel like it's pretty striking that there is a slowdown.

[00:04:51] Dan Runcie: Right, and that's a good point, because we could look at the more specific pieces of it. And yeah, if J. Cole, if Travis Scott dropped Utopia, if any of these things happen in the spring, we may not be having the same conversation from a top headline. Oh, let's react to this thing. But even like you said, you named 17 albums from a couple of years ago.

So we're talking one every three weeks, essentially that hit that target, if not more, and we're now 24 weeks into the year and we haven't had any. So there's still a pretty big shift, even if you account for the superstar releases. And if we're looking at the artists that are planning to release albums this year, I was looking through at some of the artists that have.

Big albums coming out, and these are the only ones that I thought are certified locks to hit number 1 on the billboard. You have Drake's new album, as you mentioned, Travis Scott's Utopia, J. Cole's The Fall Off, if he drops it this year, Lil Wayne, I think there's another Carter coming, Lil Uzi Vert, who I believe is dropping pretty soon, so he could potentially be the 1st, and then after that, And I hate to say this, but maybe Cardi B.

I still think that she's pretty strong, but we'll see it. I say maybe more. So we'll see if she drops an album. And I say maybe to Nicki Minaj too, while I have a bit more confidence in her dropping an album, her last album went number two, second to Travis Scott back in 2018, but it's also been a long time.

And some of the other artists who are a few more fan favorites, like Pusha T or A$AP Rocky Rick Ross, even Chance the rapper. Great artist. But it's been a while since any of those artists, if ever have topped the billboard. 200 for album charts. I know Ross and others have in the past, but, so there's a lot of fragmentation.

There were, there's still are artists have a shot, beloved albums, but they're not reaching this particular milestone of how people view mainstream success.

Yeah, the

[00:06:46] Neil Shah: question of who's a lock for number one in the rap community has gotten a little bit more complicated than maybe a few years ago. Some of these people may not be a lock.

[00:06:58] Dan Runcie: Do you think anyone I named isn't a lock.

[00:07:00] Neil Shah: Drake is obviously a lock. Travis, I would think would be a lock. Vert comes out on Friday, that's a pretty large artist and a highly anticipated album, but I'm not entirely sure. I'm not entirely sure that that would be number one. I'm not sure about Nikki. I would think Cardi, who I believe has been having 2023 in the frame, I would think that Cardi B would be number one.

It's just a little bit more complicated than especially with projects from the likes of Pusha T and whatnot. Yeah, there's definitely not a guarantee that even these stars and superstars will perform the way they did. Of course, that's up to the vicissitudes of do they have a hot single or not?

How much mindshare are they capturing, you know, these things change from year to year. All things considered, it does feel like, you know, things. I'd be worried about the downside of people being a little bit weaker. We just had Gunna, for example. Gunna, you know, came out with an album. It's been doing pretty well.

his mentor Young Thug actually also just released an album. There's a new Metro Boomin version of it that I think came out today or yesterday. But look Gunna back in 2022, last year, hit number one.

[00:08:19] Dan Runcie: Outsold the Weeknd

[00:08:20] Neil Shah: and what happened this year with this album they're gonna just put out, it hit number three. And even more than that, just the EAU unit figure, the equivalent album units, 85K, 85, 000 is decent, but not the strongest showing. So, I think there is a question about when these stars come back, just how well will they do as the surrounding environment for them is, creating what we're talking about,

[00:08:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think there's a few factors here, and I do want to call them out. Billboard, who does reflect the charts, they released a article, 5 Reasons Why a rap album has yet to top the charts and there are 5 reasons are I'll read them here. The 1st is a lack of stars essentially in a fragments in a fragmented landscape.

There's so many artists that don't necessarily need mainstream success that billboard relied on. And I think that could be true to an extent. You have their 2nd, 1 here, which is growth for hip hop itself is only up 6. 3% compared to country and Latin, which are growing much faster. I have some thoughts on that, but that was their 2nd point.

They made the 3rd, which is related to Gunna here. They talked about guns, violence, drug abuse and courtroom legal battles as well that have slowed down or halted the production of many promising stars. Whether you look at XXXTentacion, Juice WRLD, Pop Smoke, and then you look at Gunna and Thug and others that have been battling legal challenges as well.

The fourth one they mentioned is just stagnation. At the charts, which I think may be a bigger thing where if you look at the charts this year, at least for the billboard 200, it's been SZA, it's been Morgan Wallen and a little bit of Miley Cyrus. And that's pretty much been it for most of the year. So it's not even the way that it was in the pre pandemic years where every week there was a new album that seemed to have its glory moment.

It's the same artists that are staying at the top. And in some ways, it almost feels a little bit like a throwback to days before streaming when we saw a little bit more stagnation there. And then their 5th reason is not enough dance music because they talked about albums like Renaissance or Drake's Honestly, Nevermind, Dua Lipa and Future Nostalgia and how they feel like post pandemic people want to get out there and how a lot of hip hop music has been a much more slow chill, especially in the streaming era.

And I think that each of those are valid points, but I think there's a few other things that weren't mentioned in billboards article that they themselves as the entity that decides these things has a big influence. We mentioned several of those Pre pandemic years. 1 of the biggest things is how billboard itself.

 Change the rules and album bundles is a big thing. Ironically, they're actually going to be coming back with album bundles in a few months, but this was their way to be able to help preserve the sale of the album and have artists combine their album with a merch item, whether it's a T shirt or some other type of item.

But like anything, people started to game the system and people felt like it wasn't necessarily about album sales. It was more about people trying to sell these items. And I think we saw that most to extreme degree with what Travis Scott did with Astroworld, where he literally had an e commerce machine that was running, in perpetuity to help make sure that album almost doubled in its expectations of what people thought we just hadn't seen that much of a outpaced growth, but he saw the way the system was and we'd into it.

So I think that's one thing. That's a big factor, a second thing that I look at is just what we consider hip hop on these charts, because of course, billboard itself is it's reporting things based on us listenership. But we know that Latin music is very popular as well. Just considering how well bad bunny did on the charts.

But as you and I've talked about, bad bunny is labeled as Latin. He's not labeled as the actual genre that he performs. He's more categorized based on the region he's from. And for all intents and purposes, he considers himself a rapper. He considers himself a hip hop artist. So if hip hop was given some of that region agnostic glory that pop music or others get, maybe we would see, maybe we would even be having this conversation and we think about the global aspect of it.

So those are two things. There's a few more, but I wanted to get your thoughts on those.

[00:12:44] Neil Shah: Yeah. So let's start with that last one, what if hip hop is suffering from its own success, hip hop has had booms. For decades now, but what we saw in this back half of the 2010s was something fairly special and now we're at this juncture right now and so it just raises the question of like it looks like we're in a cooling period for hip hop, but hip hop is It's tentacles are reaching into, I mean, almost all of the other genres that are capturing the imagination of music fans right now.

I mean, often Morgan Wall in the country star sings with rap like cadences. one reason why

[00:13:25] Dan Runcie: Hip hop sounding beats too.

[00:13:27] Neil Shah: Yeah, even the tracks hip hop. Some of the bedrock, some of the sonic structures of Morgan Wallen's music are inherently, deeply hip hop. One reason why BTS and a new crop of Kpop stars have thrived so much, especially in the U.S., is their hip hop fluid. You can go down the list. I mean, the regional Mexican music craze that's going on right now. there's a ton of hip hop there, reggaeton, Afro beats. and then of course, Latin music and figures like Bad Bunny, Who's rapping and due to billboard nomenclature is categorized as a Latin artist, so one could look at the phenomenon differently and think, actually, while it looks like hip hop is suffering a little bit right now, or in this cooling period, maybe it's tentacles have stretched out So much, it's influences so total that it's actually become the bedrock of a lot of pop music. And then while rap stars are not thriving the way they did, say, between 2016 and 2019, in particular, because that's the period we're coming down off of, one could argue that it's. In all of these other places.

And in fact, in this age of, hip hopping everywhere, of everyone sing rapping, essentially the boundaries between quote unquote core hip hop, what Billboard would categorize as hip hop for the purpose of the charts, and a lot of these other genres is getting very fuzzy. So, one party could look at the phenomenon before us and think, weakness, in hip hop, another way of looking at it would be an increased fuzziness between hip hop and these neighboring genres. And so that that could be, that could be a major factor here. and yet at the same time, you know, something I think about a lot. what is the right way to think about this? And I'm really of 2 minds, like, I'm kind of in a conflicted space where on 1 hand, I don't know whether hip hop's influence is what we're watching is this kind of dominance on a new level, hip hop being a victim of its own success and essentially being everywhere or whether, you know, there really is some kind of transitional period afoot, you know, 1 thing to keep in mind is just how hot the 2010s and it particularly the back half was just think about how much era defining music was made in this period, incorporating R&B to Beyonce, Rihanna, Kanye West. The hubbub over Life of pablo, Drake views, you know, Frank Ocean, Kendrick Lamar.

I'm just talking about the top level. We're not even talking about the medium tier of excellent rappers and R&B stars beneath that Childish Gambino. There was a lot going on during this period. And so, despite, some of the other factors that we're talking about and that we'll talk about, I feel like that's what you gotta compare it to.

And so, to my mind, and I'm getting to actually a 2nd point in the billboard article. it does feel like we're help where we've come from a unipolar hip hop dominated universe using the strictest definition of hip hop to something. That's more multipolar and really. That can be a function of time and development, i.e. hip hop's success. Another good point that I think the Billboard article raised was just, you know, as a genre becomes so dominant, how much room is left? Once you're king of the mountain, how much growth is there left in the shoe? I mean, mathematically, your growth is going to, slow down. I come across this when I think about vinyl sales, you know, for years now, vinyl has been hot, but naturally, mathematically, as your base gets bigger, and we're talking about lots and lots of sales, your growth rates slow down.

So, like, this is just kind of an analogy, but as hip hop gets so dominant, there's something natural about not just a genre having slower periods in a cyclical fashion, which is a slightly separate thing, but there's also something natural about the genre at this point actually just I'm losing some steam for purely mathematical reasons.

[00:17:40] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you mentioned the back half of the last decade as being a high point for hip hop, because here's some important stats that influence this. Right in the middle of the 2010s is when we saw this shift is when streaming started to take off. Apple Music launches Spotify really kicks into gear. Of course, they launched in the US in 2011, but things really came into focus in 2014 and then in November, 2014.

That's when the billboard 200 starts counting streams and they've altered the formula a little bit, but it's roughly been the same where it's been anywhere from around 1, 250 to 1, 500 or even more if it's a free ad supported stream. But that's when they started counting streams at that particular point, Spotify had 15 million paid users and 60 million overall.

And then, four years later by 2018, they have 96 million paid users. And so if we go back to that point, so this is obviously when Travis Scott was releasing Astroworld, when Drake released God's Plan, as you mentioned, all these hip hop albums are doing extremely well, but there was a large. Index on hip hop fans.

And as we've seen when technology and time again, hip hop fans as a genre do tend to over index and their early adopters with new technology. We saw that with Spotify and the various streaming services, especially where their user base was. And you also saw that as well with social media with Twitter and places like that.

Where were the genres that people were talking about most on these platforms? It was hip hop. So there was this run of hip hop getting this lead. That other genres didn't have him because it over indexed early. You saw this outsized performance, especially as record sales, traditional, pure album sales started to dip a bit, but since then, you're now looking in this post quarantine phase and Spotify's growth is, paid subscriber amount is more than doubled since 2018, it's now over 200 million paid subscribers. And most of that growth came less from hip hop fans, but more from everyone else. So as we look and see the growth of whether it's Latin music, music in Africa, music in Asia, even country music within the US, you're looking at the growth of Spotify and the growth of all these streaming services and how that impacts charts and performance.

So even though hip hop listening is still growing. In the way that we've seen it record labels in the industry often do report things as a zero sum game in a lot of ways. So because of that, even though the growth is slowing down, it's still growing. It's just not growing as fast as these other genres that are now having their late 2000 late 2010s hip hop moment

[00:20:26] Neil Shah: Totally would. so yeah, when I looked into this topic last fall. Basically, fall was upon us in 2022, and it looked like hip hop's chart performance was relatively weak, so I wanted to look into this topic at that point. One of the interviews I did was actually with the head of the data tracker, Luminate, and this is definitely one thing that they noted, which is hip hop fans.

This is an important point, hip hop fans, were early adopters for streaming. So they over indexed and kind of led the way during an earlier stage of streaming adoption in precisely in the middle of the 2010s. And so, yes, you're right that you're, seeing, a shift here as the base of the streaming universe essentially becomes more varied. And especially during the pandemic, we saw these significant jumps with country and Latin music, partly that's a Morgan Wall in effect. Partly the Latin music numbers are juiced by Bad Bunny, these gargantuan artists in terms of their numbers, but it's a broader phenomenon of these genres. And their fans being a bigger part of the streaming pie and as a result, partly because of that hip hop share of streaming, not overall music consumption, but hip hop market share of us streaming is yes, like period after period, year after year is dipping as we now have a, actually a fuller picture. A more varied streaming audience.

so that's definitely a major factor and it's you know, part of why country and Latin music in particular have gotten the lifted that they've got of late. One thing to keep in mind throughout all of this is that while we're talking about, hip hop slowing, at least according to these chart metrics and streaming market shares and whatnot, it's always worth mentioning or noting that it's market share still outstrips these other genres by a wide margin, not just Latin and country, which, you know, Latin's numbers in the billboard math are, have always been weirdly low, frankly. They seem lower than they should be, but they're fairly low. I mean, we're talking like, right? Six, seven, eight percent, just neighborhood ballpark in terms of market share of U. S. consumption compared to hip hop, which is still outpacing.

[00:22:46] Dan Runcie: In the high 20s, Yeah.

[00:22:48] Neil Shah: Right. So it's just worth keeping in mind how much of a distance there still is between hip hop and some of these other genres.

[00:22:56] Dan Runcie: And this dynamic as well made me think about other times, even before streaming where distribution and means have impacted which genres were more popular. And in a lot of ways, I've often thought that streaming's ability to lower the entry barriers and to eliminate the gatekeepers, not completely eliminate, but to lessen their power is what enabled hip hop artists and artists from other genres to realize their power.

And it made me think back to times in the CD era. And I remember growing up when we think about the peak of the CD era, this is something I still remember to this day. Cause I was in school at the time. I think about three albums that came out right around the same time. You have two hip hop albums. So you have DMX is, and then there was X this December, 1999.

And then a couple months later you have NSYNC. They have their no strings attached album, which was still up until Adele's album was the highest first week sale. I think it was just under 3 million. I used to the US and then a couple months after that, you have Eminem drops, Marshall Mathers LP, and roughly from a high level, I believe that NSYNC, as I mentioned to just under 3 million in its first week.

Marshall Mathers LP did just under 2 and DMX did a few hundred thousand under 1 million. And just calling those 3, 2, 1 from that perspective, all those artists are pretty big. I don't know if I buy that Eminem was that much less popular than NSYNC at the time, but I think part of the reason was, A, you had these parental advisory stickers on them, which essentially acted like a rated R thing where, okay, it's making you pause when you go to the register.

And too, because I was in school. I remember parents of NSYNC fans that were taking their kids out of school to go line up on Tuesday to go to Sam Goody or Strawberries, wherever, buy the album, and then come back in time for C period to start, right? That didn't happen with the parents of Eminem fans, and that did not happen with the parents of DMX fans.

So all of these things that may seem like natural commerce are structural things in play when we think back about that, and even to just how the nineties were in general with. Time Warner and all these big companies and the government and the Clinton administration trying to come down on hip hop. We finally now saw it reach its potential.

And now when things are starting to dip, everyone now wants to pull it back.

[00:25:17] Neil Shah: Totally. So, like, even as late as the late 90s and the early 2000s, there's this cultural penalty on hip hop music that is kind of artificially suppressing sales. I mean, you still see this in the live music industry to this day, whether it's festivals like Rolling Loud or New York City music venues where rappers often have a tougher time.

 It's a little harder to put on an arena rap show. It's unfortunate, but partly it's because the insurance rates are higher and it's more costly to put on the show. Why is that? So even to this day, whether on the business side or culturally, there are things that can affect sales, and in streams and whatnot, you're mentioning kind of the, you know, the late 90s, I think back to the early 90s, in a way, the way in which hip hop over indexed, or kind of was buoyed by technology in the form of streaming in the middle of the 2010s, it was like a revenge for 1991 and what obtained in the prior years when rap albums were very popular and were actually selling briskly, but they were underreported along with country also too, they were actually underreported in the pre digitized sound scan era. So there again, you moved from a period when for these cultural or business factors, one genre was kind of artificially held lower, and other genres look like they were, dominating the mindshare of the country.

But then lo and behold, we entered the period of SoundScan and suddenly the whole country is listening to NWA, who knew? And so it's always seemed to me like while hip hop may have over indexed in like, you know, 2015 and 2018, it was kind of like almost like payback for 1989 or whatever, but yeah, so like these shifts, you got to take with a grain of salt because, you know, they're constructed a billboard and the industry does the best it can.

And it's constantly retooling, how it approaches things. You noted earlier the shifting position on album bundles. It's interesting that they're allowing it back this summer, but now with safeguards, so you don't pull a Travis Scott, presumably. So, you know, it's a work in progress, always, all of these metrics.

So you, when you're thinking about these debates or discussions, you do need to take it with a grain of salt. The average person on the street, maybe a rap fan, maybe a rock fan, maybe a post genre music fan. They may not care about the ins and outs of genres going up and down. Journalists may care about it and obviously people in the music industry do. but you know. It is relevant to the business, because it does affect how the business operates and what I mean by that is, you know, at record labels, your job is basically to, sign acts and pursue the hot thing and make money and some, so some of these cultural discussions about how genres are doing definitely have an impact on how the business operates and at the end of the day, the way, you know, the way the music that we hear now, I think of, you know, in earlier periods when hip hop experienced a lull, I don't think this will happen this time, but in earlier periods when hip hop experienced a lull, you know, the boy band era that you mentioned, I think, like around NSYNC and around Britney Spears time, you did see the slight lull in urban music have an impact on A&R budgets. There was a very much a shifting wind in terms of like, you know, money in some cases withdrawn from, like urban A&R budgets and, diverted elsewhere. you know, much like any business does, like diverting resources to where things feel like they're hotter. So my point being, some of these discussions, while the average music fan, may not care as much, they have real world implications.

[00:29:16] Dan Runcie: That's the part that frustrates me because a lot of this, as you mentioned, it's chatter for us, we're in this space. We talk to the people, or if you're someone that's a super fan on Twitter, you're Reddit as well. They're probably active, but they have huge. Implications I can't help, but to think about how many of the decisions that are being made about.

Which artists to give a particular budget to how much to spend on their music videos, how much to do on all these things. A&R, as you mentioned, they may see some type of cutbacks, some type of impact there. And the other piece of this, that's a bit frustrating is that in lieu of album bundles and bundling with merchandise, which is something that a hip hop, a lot of hip hop artists lead into what we saw on the flip side was artists then combining it with or not even combining, but selling physical albums like vinyl and all the boom that we've seen there. The challenge with vinyl though, is that there has been a limited supply, given the supplies train, the supply chain constraints and some of the materials there. So the record labels do have discretion over who gets allocation for the limited vinyl supply they have and who doesn't and that then creates much more decision making and much more King making essentially on who gets to have the full allotment.

And when we see artists, whether it's Harry Styles or Taylor Swift, get all of the. Allotment that's there and you see other artists, whether it's a title, the creator, even a Beyonce that are waiting several weeks, sometimes even months to get theirs. And these are superstar artists in their own right.

That are still waiting for it. And when you think deeper about it, half of the people that buy vinyl don't even listen to it. So what is it really? Is it a merch item or is it actually an album

[00:31:07] Neil Shah: totally. It's a great example of a Intra business, real world implication of some of these discussions, a record label having to determine. Okay, we got relationships with X, Y, and Z plants in Nashville and in the Czech Republic and, this is the space we got, which artists are we going to prioritize?

It matters, I mean, they're making these decisions and it can help certain artists and hurt others. And then if they don't have their physical ready while they're putting out their album, effectively, whoever doesn't have their physical ducks in a row is effectively penalized in terms of their chart placement.

So it's very real. one thing that's been going on, You know, we may get on Travis Scott and, his ilk's case for gaming the system with these bundles in that. Earlier micro era, but, you know, 1 thing that's been going on with the pop stars and especially with the K pop stars are all these collectible, collectible CDs and whatnot, which definitely are giving placement to these artists, especially in K pop that they wouldn't otherwise have.

So, in this era, when billboard got rid of those bundles, you're seeing, you know, something different going on with Kpop. It basically dominating the charts, or at least the top 10, using all these collectible CDs that then basically drop off. If you look carefully at the streaming numbers for a lot of the K pop artists that hit number 2, number 3, or number 1, the streaming numbers are not very strong.

I mean, The lion's share, almost the entire consumption is these collectible CDs, which are, actually de facto merch. So, you got another phenomenon, very similar to rap's phenomenon, where de facto merch is just gaming the charts.

[00:32:49] Dan Runcie: We're going to continue to see this, but I am very interested to see how this year's changes will impact things because even if you look at. I don't even think it was Travis Scott's thing that brought it to a head. I'm sure that was in the back of people's minds, but I think it was right after DJ Khaled dropped his album the same day as Tyler the Creator dropped, the album that had earthquake on it, Igor, that's the name of it. We started to see more of it there because obviously Khaled got penalized for energy drinks or whatever he had tried to bundle his albums with, but at the end of the day, they want to bundle it with things that aren't restricted in the same way that others did. So even though in the moment, it was definitely an eye roll type of thing.

Now, I'm like, okay, at least there was some type of control and autonomy there that the artists did have. But so much of this preservation of figuring out and having the powers that be tweak and determine the right Metric for album equivalent units, and then even the whole thought about how you have to listen to a song 1250 times on a paid streaming service for that to count as 1 full album sale. You can't even listen to a full album at once a day to then count as that. If you were to do the math there.

Right.

It really makes you think about the real dynamics at play, because we know for years that the major record labels themselves have wanted to preserve the aspect of an album. And a lot of it does seem like it's this another aspect of this underlying tug of war between them and the DSPs, the streaming services that do want to report on streams and do use that as the primary benchmark of success.

And now we're backing into this album equivalent unit metric that has now become normalized that we would never do in any other industry where it's not like Netflix is trying to show DVD equivalent units as a metric of success.

[00:34:42] Neil Shah: Yeah, totally. Yeah, I mean, Billboard is continually trying to get these things right. But, you know, it is, that is precisely what the pop stars and the Kpop stars are taking advantage of the fact that the physical albums, have much greater weight than the streams, which right there just, privileges certain genres then hurts, others, you know, like physical sales are not what in hip hop or not, but they are another genre. So, I'm sure they see it as a work in progress to kind of get these things right.

[00:35:13] Dan Runcie: Right, and I do acknowledge the work there in many ways. It is a very difficult task. You have a number of competing factors. You're trying to make essentially an advanced metric become the industry standard. And it is going to be an evolving conversation and likely will look different as streaming services continue to gain traction as you mentioned, if we do see a vinyl slowdown at some point, how that may shift things and there will be this continual movement here.

Where do you think things are in five years from now, specifically with hip hop? Do you think that the market share continues to slide? Do you think that another genre does become number one?

[00:35:50] Neil Shah: That's a great question, it feels like we're in a transitional period right now where lots of genres are thriving at the same time. People talk about music being post genre so much that it's almost become a cliché to, you know, for publicity materials to describe an artist as being genre less, kind of elicits eye rolls at this point.

Every artist is post genre at that point. It actually would be more striking if artists stuck to genres, ala Beyonce with her dance music album, which I thought took the opposite road of, focusing on the genre, which was actually refreshing. but so we're in a transitional moment. and so, I mean, the short answer to your question is that it's hard to see where this goes in five years.

But, you know, I would imagine that some of the cooling off of hip hop does level off and then maybe we're in a period for a while where, what currently obtains kind of sticks around. I mean, it's entirely possible that the 2000, the rest of the 2000. Twenties could be kind of a transitional, confusing period, barring some, culture shifting huge superstar in one of the genres that somehow changes everything, even in our highly fragmented music landscape. Typically some of the engines for different types of musics going up or down have relied on huge stars changing the game. Whether it's hip hop, you know, hip hop had certain weaknesses in the early 2000s. And, for example, Kanye West, helped revive rap also broadened its audience, broadened rap's audience in a very significant way.

 Something that Drake then, continued effectively soccer mom-izing hip hop, you know, like anyone can listen to one dance. I mean, it's not even rap, as an example, and increasingly rappers were singing. So, in the past, when genres have had lulls and then come back to life, it's usually been on the back of these pivotal stars.

Well, the reason why it's so hard to really project, like, what we're going to do and what things are going to look like in five years is because music, as you know, like, we're losing the ability for such stars. Even if they're very big to really shift the culture, Morgan Wallen is a massively big star right now and yet much of the country, you know, doesn't listen to Morgan Wallen, you know, doesn't like him for various reasons, et cetera, you know, NBA Young Boy is a massively big artist, especially on YouTube.

And yet, most people are not familiar with him. I mean, to give you a better example, even when an artist like Cardi B or Ice Spice has huge hits that, you know, hit the top 10 of the Billboard Hot 100, much of the country does not know that song the way they may have known, You know, a Cyndi Lauper song in another era or an Adele song.

So we're in an environment where increasingly, it's so fragmented that it's hard for stars to really dominate in the way that they used to. And so that may also affect whether we see Kurt Cobain like shifts where, you know, where everything changes and then we recognize, Oh, the landscape is different.

There's plenty going on in hip hop, whether commercially, you know, an act like Suicide Boys is doing great on the live music circuit. They get almost no media attention, but, in terms of the live music circuit, they can sell concert tickets. there's plenty going on also from a, critically acclaimed point of view, you know, artists like DoJi, you know, are making waves.

 It's not that like, you know, Youngboy's doing this thing. We've had work from like Lil Durk. I mean, Metro Boomin is having a great year. Ice Spice has been an exception in terms of being a big breakout star, there's plenty of stuff happening, but it's really rare for that stuff to really dominate, you saw, you know, these two examples are kind of related, but two moments that have been kind of monocultural with the capacity to shift things is obviously like Taylor Swift in this Era's tour, which is something that a lot of people talk about.

And then, of course, her getting a platform to ice spice, which was just very interesting and exciting because, wow, this is the biggest platform and it's being given to ice spice. What will happen? Will Ice Spice be able to develop into the kind of star that could, carry on Poppa Smoke's legacy in a different way and indeed populize Drill or will Drill and a lot of these, you know, vibrant rap stars that are on kind of a lower level, will they kind of stay there in this more, in this fragmented kind of multicolored, universe? I think that's like a key question, you know, even Taylor Swift, not to go into Taylor Swift tangent, but, you know, there's been debate, there's been discussion of like, oh, we do have monoculture.

There's Taylor Swift, even Taylor Swift only captures a certain part of the American audience. I mean, if you go to a Taylor Swift show, you know, it's not that racially diverse. I'm just putting it like that. not a Wwift hater. I'm just pointing out the fact, you know, so, it's tough to have the monocultural forces that one used to have to create these ships.

[00:41:01] Dan Runcie: Right, because I know you mentioned the points earlier about whether or not most people are really hearing Morgan Wallen or they're really hearing NBA Young Boy. And part of that probably applies to these generational superstars to even just with where they are now. You compare a song like Taylor Swift for the antihero compared to Cyndi Lauper time after time or any of these other songs that they did, it probably is less mind share there, but the other point you mentioned, there still are these little moments and these other things that happen that are still noteworthy, even if they're not the big thing.

I think that the big thing, whether that's having this huge album that sells 1, 000, 000 in its 1st week or 500, 000 units in its 1st week, given the way that media is going, I still think that is something that does become more and more subject to this power law dynamic, to some extent, where I do think it's still even five years from now will probably be very difficult for an artist not named Drake to be able to bet money and say, yes, oh yeah. That artist will could sell over 500, 000 in the first week. Even Drake hasn't necessarily a hundred percent done that. I mean, he did it with certified lover boy most recently, but, the other two albums he had before this, the joint one with 21 Savage or the honestly, nevermind he did it. So, but he still was able to at least top the charts there.

So I do think that. We'll still see success. We'll still see these moments, but almost in the same way that in Hollywood, where I think it's probably pretty unlikely at this point that there's going to be a billion dollar grossing movie. And it's like, Oh, wow, Huh, that's an original story or original concept.

Never heard of that one. It's almost always sequel or based on some type of existing IP. And in many ways, Taylor, Drake, Beyonce, Adele are the closest thing you have to existing contemporary IP and music. These are the biggest bets you have, and you do have a few acts here or there that have definitely come into their own SZA's SOS album has clearly done extremely well. It's been great to see her continue to break. Strides and do, and I think there's plenty of stats that show just with the performance of control over the years that there's a lot that is indicating there, but still, even with where SZA is now, there's still a gap between the other artists I mentioned.

So, there's levels to this for sure. We'll see growth there, but I still think that we're going to see the most continued bets and the more the budgets as well go towards the Drake's and the Taylor's because that's where the safest bet is for the money spent.

[00:43:32] Neil Shah: So it would be fascinating if this period remains more confusing than it usually would and more transitional, partly because ala Hollywood. We, as a culture, rely on this safe, riskless IP instead of, doing the artist development to really help some artists, you know, achieve, get to that next level, you know, it's striking, these artists you're mentioning, Taylor, Drake, they come from a different era. They come from an era that was of the fulcrum, not even the fulcrum, they proceed the streaming era. and they benefited from the branding power of an industry that has changed, dramatically and they remain right now are, you know, some of our biggest stars and it doesn't feel like a hangover yet.

These artists are still doing respected work. Drake's numbers are weakening substantially album by album, but, yeah, it will be interesting if, as you're noting, we kind of rely on these folks IP, like, you know, maybe Drake should rerecord all of it. Maybe I wouldn't mind it if Drake rerecorded Take Care For No Reason.

Maybe it's so hard to make another Take Care, another masterpiece. Maybe he should just re record it. The point being, some of these stars could linger with us longer than they would because of this effect where, in such an industry that's so fragmented, these are the riskless parties to do business with, whether you're a record label, whether you're a concert promoter, this is where the safety and money is at.

And so they could have a longer, you know, there's a perennial question about when Drake will fall off, but maybe some of these artists won't fall off, in this next stretch, but stay in this weaker state as, you know, this other stuff continues to bubble,

[00:45:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's almost in the same way where Tom Cruise is now in his 60s. I don't see him stopping Mission Impossible anytime soon. As serious as he's been doing since he was in his early 30s. Denzel's about to drop the Equalizer 3. The man turned 70 next year.

[00:45:31] Neil Shah: Indiana Jones, Harrison Ford.

[00:45:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, he's 80.

[00:45:35] Neil Shah: So, this can be bemoaned. people bemoan this in the Hollywood context, the recycling of IP instead of the development of new stuff. but it's an open question. You just, you never know, you know, there's plenty of vibrant rap being made.

There's an entire rage movement that Playboi Carti and other artists have helped inspire, you know, there's just like Ice Spice to my mind follows a little bit. Sonically in the heels of pop spoken certain ways. There are inheritors of the SoundCloud rap era that sadly waned with the passing of, you know, stars like X and Juice WRLD and whatnot.

There's stuff going on. You just, you never know, like, music business is a hard one to predict. You can't even predict that confusion will reign because, you know, it's a topsy turvy business and things change.

[00:46:26] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. Well, Neil, this was fun. before we close things out, anything you want to plug or let the audience know that you're working on?

[00:46:34] Neil Shah: No, I don't think so. Anything you suggest, I don't think there's anything I'd want to plug.

[00:46:38] Dan Runcie: Okay. Well, we'll make sure that we link to your most recent Taylor Swift piece in this one, just with the breakdown of the economics. They're not related to this conversation, but a fascinating book in deep dive, obviously considering all the conversations needed to happen to give people a breakdown, not just into that top line number, but the profit margin of a tour of this scale.

[00:46:59] Neil Shah: yeah, with the Taylor piece, I'm happy with it. And I was basically trying to do something that's just hard to do. Artists don't talk about their costs and what their deals involved with promoters and booking agents. So very hard to actually ascertain profit.

And so what I was trying to do there was just. and it talked to a lot of people about what's reasonable for a superstar and then what's reasonable to assume about the breakdown when it comes to an unusual superstar. So that was kind of, that story, I guess, you know, related to this topic is just, you know, yeah, my attempt to kind of get my head around. It wasn't that article. I did, I think, in October of last year. and so, yeah, this is like an important discussion. and when you want to have in a measured way, you know, like, it's like, another not colleague, but a good guy at Billboard Elias did also a piece, following on Kyle's piece, right?

Kind of actually talking to executives about how worried, you know, they are about this stuff. So, yeah, this stuff is hard to predict. So, but yeah, if anything, you could, flag that old piece if you want.

[00:48:01] Dan Runcie: Okay, great. No, we'll do Neilm Thanks again. It's been a pleasure.

[00:48:05] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast.

Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2921 no 30 years of Bad Boy Entertainment (with Zack Greenburg) https://www.trapital.com/podcast We can’t tell the story of hip-hop without mentioning Diddy and the record label he started. Bad Boy took off in 1993 after Puff was fired from Uptown Records. He brought TheNotorious B.I.G. with him from Uptown Record, and signed a 50-50 deal with Clive Davis’s Arista Records, and it was off to the races. Bad Boy survived the tragic fallout of the East Coast vs. West Coast rivalry, and reached even bigger heights after Biggie’s death. Puff began to rise as a solo artist, but did the rest of the artists suffer as a result? Friend of the pod, Zack O’Malley Greenburg, joins me on this episode to cover 30 years of Bad Boy Entertainment. Here’s what we hit on: 0:35 Sean Combs come-up story 5:16 Diddy breaks in with Uptown Records 8:22 Starting Bad Boy Records 14:11 What sets Diddy apart 21:04 How Diddy controlled the narrative 23:58 Bad Boy’s formula for success  29:00 East Coast vs. West Coast rivalry 30:39 Bad Boy’s historic 1997-98 run 45:42 Bad Boy curse? 48:44 Diddy’s reputation compared to Cash Money 54:50 Best signing?  55:19 Best business move? 57:19 Best dark horse move? 1:00:19 Missed opportunity? 1:08:52 Possibility of biopic? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Zack Greenburg: Diddy's ability to sort of walk the line and step back, you know, I think that's what ultimately kept Bad Boy in the position that, you know, that stayed and kept him in the position that he continued to be in. [00:00:09] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:35] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is another case study style breakdown, and this time we chose to dive deep on the one, the only Bad Boy Entertainment when it comes to branding and when it comes to marketing. I don't know if there's another record label that has as identifiable as a sound of vibe as bad Boy, you knew what that vibe was. Puff said it himself, they take hits from the eighties, but do it sound so crazy? And that was the formula, and it worked time and time again. What Puff did was smart, it was a modern approach to how Berry Gordy approached the record business with Motown. But then he put his own spin on it, interning with Andre Harrell at Uptown Records, learning from him and then putting his own spin on it even more, making it relevant for the 90s and truly becoming the icon that was synonymous with shiny suits with that Bad Boy flavor. And so much of the success of one of the best MCs ever, the Notorious BIG, some of the most iconic R&B groups at the time, and singers such as Faith Evans, 112 and many more. And plenty of artists that unfortunately also had plenty of challenges and issues when it came to payment, drama, legal disputes and more. And we dive into all of that. I'm joined again by Zack O'Malley Greenburg. He wrote a book called Three Kings, where he dived deep into Diddy, as well as Dr. Dre and Jay-Z in this book, so he's well-versed and shared a bunch of great stories in this one. So let's dive in, really excited for this one. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:06] Dan Runcie: We are back to talk about the wondrous world that Sean Combs built himself Bad Boy entertainment and joined by the one and only Zach Greenburg. Welcome back [00:02:15] Zack Greenburg: Oh, thanks for having me, Dan. [00:02:17] Dan Runcie: Bad Boy is so fascinating because Puff is someone who has in many ways been this larger than life character even before people knew him externally as that. And he has really stayed true with that throughout his time in hip hop and even before then. And most people know the origin story starting back in his days at Howard. But I think based on the research you've done, I know you have some backstory with some of the lessons and some of the things he did even before that. So walk us back. Who was puff in the early days before the world? Got to know him. [00:02:52] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think the funny part is that, that puffy was always puffy and, you know, it just took a while for a little while for the world to kind of figure it out. But you know, there are these kind of consistent themes when you go back through his youth and you, kind of get a sense of who he was. And, you know, I remember writing my book Three Kings, you know, Diddy being one of these kings, talking to people who grew up around him. He really was that same guy from the very beginning. So even when he was a kid, you know, he spent his very earliest years in Harlem, but then moved to Mount Vernon, kind of a suburban neighborhood. you know, just north of the city limits. And you know, he had not just one paper route, he had multiple paper routes and on every, you know, every route. He had this philosophy of like, he wasn't just gonna take the paper and fling it into the family's yard. He was gonna get up and he was gonna go, you know, open the screen door and put the paper in between the screen door and the main door so that people didn't have to go up and do so like he was, you know, that dedicated, that hardworking from the very beginning. you know, I think another story I learned from his youth, Puffy was like, there was some, Some debate, you know, some kid had a pool party and, Puffy wasn't invited. there may have been some racism at play, we don't know. But anyway, Puffy's solution was to convince his mom to build a pool in their backyard and then start his own pool parties and, you know, I mean, it's like the most puffy move ever, right? So he just ended up finding, you know, wealthier and wealthier backers to build the proverbial pool as the years went on. [00:04:23] Dan Runcie: That is the perfect story to encapsulate him because I feel like I could imagine other people having white parties. He doesn't get invited to the white party, so he's like, all right, bet I'm gonna go start my own white party. And now it's this annual thing, however many years running. [00:04:37] Zack Greenburg: Exactly. I mean, and you know, you know, as you kind of trace his evolution, you know, in between it was the same thing. So, you know, we all know the Howard Days, he was taking the Amtrak up, sometimes hiding in the bathroom, so they didn't have to pay for the tickets. He didn't have any money but, you know, he would go up back up to New York on the weekends, he would plan these parties. He started to build a name for himself. and it was exactly that, you know, so from the pool parties, in Mount Vernon to the parties that he was throwing, you know, his colleges to the White party, you get that through line of Puffy that, you know, kind of continues all the way through, through the Ciroc era, you know, I think, which really makes this sort of art celebration, ethos, you know, all the more credible, right. [00:05:16] Dan Runcie: Right, and you mentioning him taking Amtrak. Of course, that's him going from DC to New York to go to Uptown Records where he pushes and fights to get his unpaid internship. Working with Andre Harrell, who was on the Ascension himself. He had started that record label in the mid to late eighties. He then sees the rise. He's early on, new Jack Swing has so many of the early folks making that sound there. And then Puff comes in, he sees a opportunity to elevate and position that brand because the whole thing that Uptown was about, they were trying to push Ghetto Fabulous. They wanted to show that there was a opportunity for people who grew up with nothing to feel like they had that release. And Andre Harrell, he since passed away a few years ago, but he spoken about this a few times and you can see how Puff at the time adapted a lot of that. He worked with Jodeci. He was so integral with how he styled them and making sure they had the right jackets. And at the time, Jodeci was very much seen as this alternative to Boys to Men, Boys to Men was a bit more buttoned up. They made music that was G-rated that you could play everywhere. And Jodeci definitely leaned into the sex appeal, which is something that we saw continue play through with. Bad Boy records of Bad Boy Entertainment in the future. He did similar with Mary J. Blige, taking her from just being a R&B singer to giving her more of a hip hop Ben, and doing a bit more of that crossover vibe, which is something that we saw again with Bad Boy too. And as Puff continued to show his influence, things started to clash because the intern then becomes VP of A and R, and that VP in A and R starts to butt heads and really challenge Andre Harrell on a number of things. [00:07:06] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And, you know, I think, you know, like you said, Puff really had an idea of what Uptown could be that was, you know, a little bit different from Andre. But it really worked, right? It was the idea that it was, it had a little bit more of an edge to it. you know, like Jodeci had a little more edge than boys to men. you know, that every artist that was gonna be out on Bad Boy would have like, you know, would have that level of class, but also would have kind of like, you know, kind of like a street smart edge. And so, right, it was like the Tims and the backwards hat, but, you know, maybe you had like a nice jacket. It was that kind of mix. And it was very much like in line with Puffy himself. and I think, you know, it's a theme that you kind of started to see. as kind of, he moved on, you know, whether it was Bad Boy or Roc or whatever it was, the thing was synonymous with Puffy. Puffy was synonymous with the thing. But as he began to later on build these assets, you know, he could sell the businesses in a way that he couldn't sort of sell his own image and likeness necessarily. So, that started with, Uptown for sure, it was Andre's thing, but it started to feel like it was Puffy's thing. And I think there was some thought that, you know, that there sort of couldn't be two kings in the castle. And Andre eventually pushed him out and, you know, that kind of left it, the Diddy, you know, in his early twenties kind of figuring out like, Hey, you know, what am I gonna do next?  How am I gonna really start my own thing here? [00:08:22] Dan Runcie: And I have this quote from Andre. This was from a documentary a few years later. He says, when Puff got fired, he was on payroll and his artists were on payroll. He's still recording his artists, but he was able to find the best deal, so we never fired him to hurt him. But he fired him to basically make him rich. I will say that quote is much nicer than certain things that Andre said immediately after that firing, especially in the 90s. But it was cool to see the two of them find opportunities to continue to work together after that. But I think the key thing from his time in Uptown is that he was able to find and work with art is that eventually he started working with on Bad Boy. That's when he first works and discovers Big. That's when he first works and really begins to hone in on that sound. And then he officially launched Bad Boy in 1991, but it really wasn't until 1993. He starts working with Big, he starts working with Craig Mack and then it all leads up to this deal that he ends up signing with Arista records to officially do this joint venture with Arista. Arista, of course, was run by Clive Owen, legendary music executive, and they do their 50 50 split. And as the story goes, Clive was on the fence. At first he wanted to hear more, but then Puff Plays flavor in your ear. Craig Max first single, and he was like, all right, I need to be part of this, whatever it is. So that was the song that took things off and made it happen. [00:09:50] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, Clive Davis, of course, you know, legendary, record men, you know, discovered Janice Joplin, Whitney Houston, Puffy, like you could say, he discovered all these people. they were, they were kind of there already, and, I sort of suspect they would've had their success even if it were not for Clive Davis. But, you know, that, we could debate that. But, know, Clive Davis certainly had an eye for talent, one way or the other. So, I mean, I think what's really fascinating too is, you know, you got think where Puffy was at that point in his life before he got that deal. He was shopping Bad Boy around right? To a bunch of different labels and it says so much about him and his whole ethos, the way he approached it, and this was another anecdote that I found in my reporting, by one of the founders of The Fader who happened to work at EMI at the time. He was in the room when Puffy brought the Bad Boy deal, to the folks at e Emmi and, you know, so like, just to refresh, here's Puff early twenties, just been fired. Just had his first kid, I think. And also, you know, he'd been a part of, this charity basketball tournament at City College where a bunch of people got, crushed in a stampede. He was ultimately found, you know, not guilty of any kind of criminal charges or anything, but his name was all over the papers. Like there's a lot of negative press around him. He was kind of, you know, almost radioactive at this point, or at least one might have thought that turned out he wasn't. But, so anyway, he goes into this meeting with e Emmi and, you know, Their big thing was, Vanilla Ice. And he sort of goes into this meeting and he's like, that dude's corny. Like, I have no interest in anything having to do with Vanilla Ice. Let me tell you how to run your business. And, you know, so he proceeds to like, give them this vision. And then at the end of it, I mean, and I'll read the quote cause it's just so good. he says, when you guys get in a room with all them suits and you're gonna decide what you're gonna pay Puff, just when you get to a number that you think is gonna make Puff happy, I love how he was referring to himself the third person, right? He says, get crazy on top of that. And then when you're there, I want whipped cream and a cherry on top. and this is the best part, he goes, I don't even want to think about the money. That shouldn't even be an issue. Don't be coming at me with no n-word money. Goodbye. And like that was vintage puff. Like that was billionaire Puffy. Before he was billionaire, before he even had. Like before we had a company. So, you know, I think there's just such a great lesson in there, which is kind of like, you know, the sort of, if you can pull off the, fake it till you make it, if you can have that kind of swagger. And to be fair, not available to everybody and like, you know, don't try this at home, kind of if you don't have it. But man, if you can pull that off, if you have that kind of confidence in yourself, you can accomplish some pretty incredible things. He didn't even, you know, end up going with EMI but I think he made a similar pitch at Arista and, you know, and that ultimately got him the deal, that created Bad Boy and, you know, that was really the engine for so much of, what he ended up achieving as the years went on. [00:12:46] Dan Runcie: That story is one of the reasons why he has lived on to become meed and in many ways become a bit of a gift himself. Whether you look at the Chappelle Show skit where, Dave Chappelle is making fun of making the band, and he has that whole sketch about, I want you to get me some Cambodian milk from a goat, or whatever it is. And it's something that sounds completely absurd, but one, it sounded like a lot of the shit that he would say in that MTV show make in the band. And it sounds exactly like that quote that you just shared from that story. The difference is he did this, whether it was for pure entertainment on a show like making the band or when there was really things at stake, like he was at this point when there wasn't a deal in place, he was recently fired. But regardless of whether he's up or down, trying to get it still the same guy. [00:13:39] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. You know, and I think it just kind of goes to the point like, did he creates brands. He is the brand. He imbued the brand with his essence. And then the brand becomes that much more valuable, whether it's a brand that he can sell, you know, for some huge gain, or whether it's a brand that is compensating him, you know, handsomely for his association or in some cases both.  That's kind of the formula and, you know, not everybody can pull it off because not everybody has a brand that is that clear. [00:14:11] Dan Runcie: And let's dig into this because I think this is one of the things that does set him apart. Denny used to be a club promoter as well. And this is a persona that we've seen oftentimes in music where the club promoter or the party promoter works their way up to then become the executive. You see it now with Scooter Braun, someone who's a billionaire now, or close to it in his own right. And he was a party promoter in Atlanta. You saw with Desiree Perez who now runs Roc Nation. She was a party and a club promoter before as well. And you've seen it plenty of times before and I think there's a few things there. There's a hustle and a relentlessness that you need to have to make that work. You need to create momentum around some of that isn't there. You need to understand and be tapped into what people want to hear and what people wanna do and how people wanna feel entertained and how they wanna leave from something feeling like, damn, I had a good time. We need to go do that again. And that is a lifestyle and what Puff did was aligned himself by building businesses that allowed him to do that. Some of those businesses worked better than others, but I think that is the key through line there. On the flip side, I do think that some of these operators and business leaders can often struggle with the bigger picture because there's so many more elements to building companies outside of the marketing brand promotion and those things, and I think we can get into some of that here because I think we saw some of those dynamics play out with Bad Boy as well. [00:15:39] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And you know, I mean, I think one of the things about Bad Boy is it wasn't like this was the first record label to develop an ethos and kind of build a lifestyle around it. And, almost like, assembly line, right? I mean, Puffy was doing that himself at Uptown before he just took that same idea and, Pufified it even more. But, you know, I would kind of almost liken it to Motown. I mean, if you look at, Berry Gordy's role, I mean, you see Berry Gordy, credited as a producer on so many, of those songs and, you know, he wasn't like the only person in the room, producing right? he was putting together the right songwriters, the right musicians, everybody to be in the same place. And he was tying it all together with this kind of Motown ethos. And when, you know, when you had a Motown record coming out, you knew what it was. And I think that's why people in the old days used to be fan people would be fans of like, specific labels, right? They're like, I like the stuff that this label puts out, you know, I trust them. It's almost like, you know, I don't know, you know, Coachella sells out, even before the artists are announced because you know what you're gonna get if you like Coachella and you just trust that that's what's gonna happen. That's what it was like, Motown, that's what it's like with Bad Boy. So I think Diddy really followed that model that he was going to be the person, you know, sort of putting things together, you know, maybe he was going to, do a guest verse here and there. Maybe he was gonna be more involved in the production of this play of this song or another song. but it was really more in the vision and the ethos of the brand, the Bad Boy brand, what that looked like, what success looked like, you know, the Diddy version of success looked like maybe a little different from the Uptown Andre Herrell version. And, you know, it was like, like a little more swagger, like, you know, like a little more edge to it. And he was really able to kind of like, make that tangible. So, you know, I would keep going back to that as like something that sets him apart, you know, following the footsteps of the likes of Berry Gordy and [00:17:34] Dan Runcie: The Motown example is good because they also were able to maximize the most from the broader roster they had from the hits that they had Berry Gordy, of course, was famous for one artist on his record, has a huge deal. Okay, we're gonna get another artist on that record on that label to then do it again. You saw that with Aint' No Mountain High Enough. Marvin Gaye has his version that goes through the roof. Okay, let's get Diana Ross to do her own version, her own spin on it. That becomes a song in its own right. And you saw, did he do this to some extent with remixes? How one artist had the remix that worked out well. Okay, or one artist had the original song that worked out well, okay, let's get the remix now. Let's get the whole Bad Boy crew on this remix to go do their own verse and do this thing. They did that time and time again, and then in the early two thousands he had that album. We invented the remix, and there's plenty of debate on whether or not they actually did invent the remix, but that remix that they did of Flava in Ya Ear with, Craig Mack, and they had Biggie on that one as well. That is one of the more classic iconic remixes that people do go back to. And I think the other way that they're , similar too is some of the disputes that artists have had about pavements and things like that, which we can get into eventually. But that's always been the model. I think there in many ways, you're right, it's more like Motown than it is like uptown. [00:18:58] Zack Greenburg: for sure. And you know, on the Biggie point, I mean, people forget sometimes, but Biggie was originally signed to Uptown and Puffy had to go and get him back, and I think they were able to negotiate his release or his transfer of his deal from Uptown to Bad Boy for something like half a million dollars, which, you know, turned out to be, a pretty good deal all the way around. So, you know, he knew that sometimes he would have to shell out and, you know, he did from time to time. That certainly didn't stop there from being disputes, as time went on. But, you know, I think one of the other fascinating things is sort of this interplay, you know, he really walked this line, of sort of like, you know, the corner in the corner office, right? you know, the boardroom, and the street, and, he played up this sort of like lineage that he had of the Harlem gangster world like his dad, Melvin was an associate of Frank Lucas from, you know, the subject of American gangster. And you know, like his dad was known in Harlem. I think they called him, pretty Melvin. Like he was very flashy, you know, he always had the best suits and, you know, and all that kind of thing. But, you know, he definitely came from that sort of like grand gangster era. you know, Frank Lucas and Nick Barnes and all those guys. I mean, that was sort of Puffs lineage. And he definitely played up and he certainly played up, you know, sort of different sort of, street edge, you know, when things got heated in the Bad Boy Death Row situation. But at the same time, he never really wanted to go too deep into it. And I talked to somebody who sort of grew up around him, and he called him Jimmy Clean Hands, you know, because he didn't really want to get like, like he used the association. When it was sort of convenient, but also he didn't want to get too deeply associated, with that side of things. So, to me it's, a really fascinating tightrope walk, how he pulled it off. And, if he'd gone further, toward that side of things, I don't think that would've ended well for him. And if he hadn't gone quite as far as he might not have had, you know, a certain credibility or an edge that, you know, that contributed to so much of the success of Bad Boy, especially in those days. [00:21:04] Dan Runcie: And he did it at a time in the 90s when it was easier for hip hop stars to be able to control the narrative and push what they wanna push and not have other things cover or not have other things be uncovered, or all these internet rabbit holes. I could imagine him trying to do this 10, 15 years later, and it could be a situation like Rick Ross where all of a sudden there's photos of you as a correctional officer popping up on the internet and people are like, bro, what the hell's going on here? I thought every day you were hustling. I could have seen something like that happening the same way that Diddy, but by the time that plenty of people have had those debates about, oh, well, you know, Diddy was actually a kid that grew up in the suburbs and went to college and X, Y, Z, and there's plenty of ways that you could flip that story, but by the time that even became a discussion point, at least in circles where I heard him growing up, he was already an established star. So there was really nothing else that you could do at that point. [00:21:58] Zack Greenburg: yeah. And I guess he could walk that line because he really did kind of embody both, right? Like he was the son of a, you know, a Harlem gangster. he was born in Harlem. His dad was killed, you know, on I think Central Park West and 108th Street or something, you know, in a dispute a case of I think mistaken identity. I mean, so there were real, you know, tough things that, he was born into. And at the same time, he was also, you know, like the college dropout. Like you know, he went to school, he did his thing like, you know, you could say he was like a proto backpack rapper in some ways, like if you wanted to spin it that way. And he kind of embodied both of these worlds, but I think that really, if he hadn't actually lived both those lives, it would've been harder to sort of embody them simultaneously as he did. [00:22:47] Dan Runcie: And even in him, in his own right, there were many incidents that he had that people felt could have supported this narrative that he wanted to, for better or worse, whether it was the 1990 Club nightclub, the 1999 nightclub shooting after the Nas Hate Me Now Music video, him and his team going into Steve Stout's office and then, you know, assaulting him. And then everything that came up after that, or even as recently as within the past 10 years, the incident at UCLA with the coach yelling at his son. There's been plenty of things that have came up that show, you know, that the relentless, the temperament that could often work against his advantage as well. [00:23:26] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, you know, didn't he bash Steve Stout over the head with a champagne bottle or something? I mean, you know, but what's that line? We back friends like Puffy and Steve Stout, you know, like it, 50 cent had that line. I think he has a remarkable ability to, you know, to end up being sort of friendly with, people who he had these disputes with in the past. So, you know, whether, Steve Stout or, Shine or whoever, like, he finds, various ways to, sort of bridge divides in the end. I don't know how it turned out with the coach from, was it UCLA, or USC. But I suspect that's fine too. but yeah, he does find a way of patching things up. [00:23:59] Dan Runcie: No, he definitely has and we could talk a little bit more about some of the disputes that came with some of the artists, but I do wanna talk a bit about the business of Bad Boy itself and how it went about things. And one of the things that we saw from successful record labels, of course, Zach and I have done past conversations on Cash money, and Roc-A-Fella, and they'll always find innovative ways to work within their constraints or find ways to make things work even when you don't have all of the resources in the world. And one of the things that Bad Boy did was they really leaned into sampling and sampling hits from the eighties and making them the most successful things they could be. What's that line from that May song Making, taking hits from the eighties make 'em sound so Make it sound so crazy. Yeah. so they have their in-house production as well with hit men who then do most of the production, and they give you that Bad Boy sound that you can identify when you hear it immediately on a song, whether it's a total song or it's a one 12 song. And they were able to do that and that formula worked so well because you had this generation that grew up listening to those songs because their parents heard all those songs as well. These are black music classics and then they were able to repurpose them and because of the time and things weren't quite as oversaturated, it sounded quite authentic in a way where I think even some samples now can feel almost a bit forced because you can be like, okay, they're really trying to work that artist. And who knows? I might be also looking at this now, someone in my thirties as opposed to in the 90s, looking at it as someone that's growing up experiencing this. But still, I do think that there was a bit of like a authenticity and a vibe that they were able to create with each of those sample tracks. And plenty people tried to do it. Of course they didn't invent it. I know that Death Row and NWA, Dr. Dre had done it successfully before Diddy, but Diddy and Bad Boy were definitely able to put their own unique spin on making that as effective as it was. [00:25:57] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, I mean, I think to your point, but it, like it really opened up this sort of aspect of mainstream hip hop when, you know, maybe there were some radio stations that weren't gonna play some of these songs, but, you know, like a puffy song or a biggie song ordinarily, but, you know, if you have like, Oh, that's David Bowie in the background. Like I'm familiar with this. then, you might be sort of like more inclined to put it on the radio if you were a certain kind of dj, which then might reach a certain kind of listener who didn't, you know, ordinarily listen in hip hop and, you know, and you kind of have this, kind of snowball effect. you know, sure. [00:26:32] Dan Runcie: And then from a personal perspective, I'll be the first to admit the amount of songs that I had heard the first time as Bad Boy Version. And then growing up, you then later hear the original one that they sampled from the eighties or seventies, whatever Disco tracker, soul Tracker was, and you're like, oh, that's what that song was from. It's happened endless times and it continues to still happen. [00:26:54] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I must confess, I heard I'll be missing you before, I heard I'll be watching you, so, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, so yeah, and I think a lot of that narrative around the sort of peak Bad Boy sampling era, you know, I think it gets unfairly criticized as sort of being uncreative and like, you know, essentially just being cover and, not adding much to it. But, I disagree entirely, and I think that in addition to creating a different song with a different vibe and everything, you know, th those songs did introduce a whole generation of people, to eighties music that, you know, they may not have been alive to have heard, you know, from, you know, let's say I was born 85, some of these songs came out before I was born. So, yeah, I think that does get missed sometimes. [00:27:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I'm in the same boat. I knew Juicy before. I knew the original Juicy Fruit. I knew Mase Bad Boy before I knew Hollywood Swinging, and I could go on and on with all the songs that they were able to help in introduce and connect the dots there. Another thing that I think Bad Boy did at this time that was a continuation of Uptown was how intentional and borderline maniacal Puff was about continuing that image. So, they had the Can't Stop Boat Stop documentary that came out a couple years ago. And the artist from one 12, which was the main male R&B group that Puff had signed to the record label at the time, they said that they were styled, dressed and personified to be an image of Puff themselves, to essentially be Puff as R&B singers, which was really interesting. And then on the more controversial side, which I don't think would ever fly in the same way today, Faith Evans, who was married to Biggie at the time, she was sent by Puff to go to tanning salons cuz she a light-skinned black woman. They sent her to tanning salons so that her skin can be darker because he wanted to be able to sell her as a certain image that would never fly again the same way today. But that's how Puff was. He was so maniacal, even things down to the nail color and things like that for women. He wanted to make sure that people looked a certain way. [00:29:01] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and I think what's, you know, especially interesting when you, kind of zoom back on the 90s and that, that era of Bad Boys, you know, given the level of control he had over, you know, that level of detail, you know, the whole east coast, west coast thing, the whole Bad Boy Death Row thing obviously got way out of control. and, you know, culminating in, the desert of big and pop and you know, obviously we don't know exactly who was behind each of those things, but it's, you know, still kind of debate to this day. But, the fact is that, you know, got kind of wrapped up in this kind of, know, sort of thing, like the fact that Puffy could bring Bad Boy back from that, and kind of like continue to have the same brand, you know, after everything that went down, you know, I think is another testament to like the identity of the brand, right? I mean, you know, cuz I remember in that period of time hip hop was really under fire from, you know, so, you know, like the Tipper Gores of the world and the parental advisories and all that, and there was this narrative of like, oh, this music is dangerous. And there was a whole period of time, you know, after everything that went down, in the mid to late 90s, like there were questions like, is hip hop? You know, really a viable commercial genre? Are brands really gonna want to be attached to this? you know, because of the violence that happened, you know, really publicly there. And I think, you know, whether you love him or hate him, like, I think he deserves some credit for pulling things back from the brink. you know, regardless of whatever role he played in getting them, to the brink, but he really did kind of pull things back from the brink and show that hip hop could be this, you know, commercial force. you know, that would be like a mainstream success sort of thing. And really pretty quickly, after all this went down, [00:30:39] Dan Runcie: If you go back to winter 96, the height of this beef, you have that infamous vibe cover with Tupac, Dr. Dre Snoop, and Suge Knight. They're there, the Beef and Bad Boy and, Biggie as well. Were on respective vibe covers as well. If you asked people, okay, five, 10 years from now, which of these two record labels will be in the stronger position, you probably would've put your money on Death Row. To be frank, they had the better artists just from like a roster perspective. With those four, the leadership seemed in many ways quite as strong and there were similarities there as well. You had these two relentless, large and life figures. Granted, Suge and Puff are very different in a lot of ways, but that's where you would've taken things. But then two years later, it's a completely different story. Death Row is imploding and bad Boy had the biggest year that any record label has ever had. If you look back at that 1997 to 1998 stretch, and this is after the death of the biggest rapper as well, they end up releasing Biggie's second album, Life After Death, ironically, 16 days after he passed away. And then Puff himself becomes this larger than life icon. He releases his own album, Puffy, P uff Daddy, the Family, No Way Out. And they continue to go on this run. And in many ways, as other heads and other figures in hip hop have faded and necessarily taken their own path, he continued to stay on that. It really is a remarkable journey when you look at each of those steps in it, because I probably would've put my money on Death Row if I didn't know better. [00:32:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, Yeah, I mean, it sure felt that way, right? I mean, but if you kinda, if you compare the leadership, if you compare Puffy to Suge, you know, I think that so much of, you know, the back and forth between Bad Boy and Death Row, you know, it was a case of like, these guys were playing a role, right? I mean, they were, it is funny in some of my reporting, people say like, both Puffy and Suge, especially Suge, were sort of, it was like they were acting in their own bad gangster movie. And I think the main difference was, you know, Suge really came to believe it and live it in a way, that Diddy, didn't quite do it you know, as we were saying before, Diddy kind of walked that line. but Suge just kind of got deeper and deeper into it, and that was kind of who he was, you know, all the time. So, you know, that there's not really like, kind of like a way to, back out, you know, to kind of come up for air when you, when you've kind of like gotten that deep into it like Suge did.  I think that was the main difference, you know? I mean, I think he became just completely, you know, is like possessed by this image that he created for himself. And he started to live it, you know, all the time and Diddy's ability to sort of walk the line and step back, you know, I think that's what ultimately kept Bad Boy in the position that, you know, that stayed and kept him in the position that he continued to be in. in [00:33:42] Dan Runcie: And everything that went down to that 1995 Source Awards is a perfect example about how they dealt with this whole thing. Suge and Death Row, famously win Best soundtrack for Above the Rim. He goes up, accepts the award, and he makes the infamous line. If you wanna sign with the label, you don't wanna have your executive producer all on the record, all on the video dancing come to Death Row, and then you see. Puff is there just looking, not saying anything, but everyone knows who he's talking about. But then later on the night Puff goes and is on the mic, he doesn't go necessarily take a shot back at Suge, but he just makes some type of more global statement, Hey, we're all in this together. I forget Puff's exact quote, but that's a perfect example of this, right? Of knowing that line cuz as we know, puff had a temper. Puff wasn't afraid to throw down in the moments, right? But he knew that in that stage, in that setting, especially even on his home turf, this was all the West Coast guys coming there because, you know, there was that famous scene of Snoop Dogg standing up being like, East Coast ain't got no love for Dr. Dre and Snoop. That's my horrible Snoop dog voice there. But Puff was cool, calm, collected during all of that, and as you put it, the difference behind the difference between the two of them is more than puff deciding to be all the video and should not be in, the video. The same way it was everything that you explained it more. And that is one of the biggest reasons, I think for that difference. And what helped Bad Boys essentially be even stronger, unfortunately. So after Big's death, [00:35:21] Zack Greenburg: yeah, totally. And you know, I think with Puff, he ultimately. He had that calm, cool, collected side to him that came out, you know, I think at, helpful points, but he was ultimately about, you know, protecting the bag, right? Like Diddy is a business, he is the business. And he, knows that he has to kind of keep that in mind. And I think, you know, Suge on the other hand just kind of like got too deep in his own narrative and couldn't kind of like poke his head up over the clouds and see the view from, you know, 35,000 feet or whatever. So, I think Diddy's business sense, you know, I think ultimately helped keep him, keep him, you know, just above the fray. So, still super remarkable when you look at it. He threw that first white party in 1998. That was really, that was what, like a year, a year after Biggie was killed. And, you know, just to give you an idea of the kind of stuff that was going down. I mean, he bought this house in East Hampton, and he decided that he was gonna throw the most exclusive party people just to give the background. I did some reporting on this too, but like, it apparently if you got invited to the white party and Puffy's White party, you could not get in If you wore like a cream suit, they'd throw you out. If you had, like a blue stripe on your white shirt, they would throw you out. So you had like grown men running home to get like an all white proper shirt to go to these parties. And you know, like pretty quickly you had Martha Stewart and Howard Stern and Donna Koran and like, Donald Trump used to go to these parties, you know, with his daughter everything. So, it was kind of like a who's who of like a certain type of celebrity in the late 90s. And to go from, you know, from the depths of the East coast, West coast thing to that, in like a year. I think it just shows how Puffy's able to kind of flip things around and that's what he was able to do with Bad Boy. He pivoted the whole narrative and suddenly it was about Puff Daddy, the family. It was about, you know, Godzilla soundtrack and, you know, doing the thing with an orchestra and Jimmy Page and whatever. And, you know, singing, he's able to like recreate himself and also these brands like Bad Boy that's created in his image. you know, like in a remarkably quick timeframe, I think. [00:37:38] Dan Runcie: And to share some numbers on this era. This is peak Bad Boy. I would say this whole 97 to 1999 stretch. 1999, they sold 130 million worth of records. And for some context there, that was more than Madonna's Maverick label had that year. And this was, or Madonna, during that whole Ray of Light era, if I'm remembering the timeline, and Beautiful Stranger, if I remember the timeline correctly and more than Def Jam had at its peak that year, and this was, we did the Def Jam pod recently. This was around the same time that Lyor was trying to get X and Jay-Z to release those albums in the same year, and Bad Boy was still doing its thing then they're Puff Daddy and the Family Tour. They went on their own arena tour, they made 15 million that year, and Puff was starting to extend himself in the same way that we saw other moguls do the same. We talked in the Roc-A-Fella episode about, this was the time that Dame Dash had started to have different partnerships in film and district and sports and things like that. We saw Master P as well in the late 90s get his hand involved with a number of things. And one of the things that stuck out from this era is that Sean, is that, did he actually made a partnership with Johnny Cochran at the time, who was his attorney during all of the drama that he had in the late 90s after that nightclub shooting. And they started a management business that was gonna be focused on NBA players. And this just gives you an idea of all of the things that he was interested at the time. So it really is remarkable. And a lot of it came because Diddy himself was putting himself out there. He became the brand, it was him putting it on, and he really became the most successful artist on this label. But around this time, if you start talking to some of the other artists on the label, they start to get a bit frustrated because they feel it's no longer about their development. It is now about Puff building and doing everything for himself. [00:39:36] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and I think that's when you know, he really starts to have all these brand extensions and, you know, you can see there's actually, I think the first Forbes cover on a hip hop artist was Puffy in 1999. And, it was a celebrity issue. And they had, Puffy and Jerry Seinfeld on the cover together, which always cracks me up. But, you know, Seinfeld's wearing this suit and Puffy's got this like Sean John denim t-shirt on. you know, just like a walking advertisement on the front of this magazine, which is just brilliant. And, you know, so he is got that going. He's like opening restaurants, you know, and like really kind of like realizing that, he could be not only the sort of the straw that stirs the drink and like the producer and whoever behind the scenes, but also the, you know, the main artist. And you know, I can imagine that being another artist on Bad Boy at this point, could start to get a little frustrating. [00:40:28] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think he had a quote around the time he wanted to be David Geffen. He wanted to be bigger than David Geffen. And of course this was Pete Geffen making moves with Dreamworks and everything else. Still being, in many ways, music's prominent mogul. That was due his thing there. And this was around the same time that we have another quote from, Andre Harrell. And I remember if you mentioned earlier, or if I mentioned earlier, there were some other quotes at the time that were less favorable than Diddy, than the ones that Harrell ended up having later. This was one of them. He said, and this was in a New York Times 1999 interview. He, Puff, gotta separate the young man thing from the business thing. If there's an incident where the situation is going in a way that he feels slighted or disrespected, the only way for him to handle it is as if he was a 45 year old IBM, CEO, which is a very interesting way. But he's essentially saying, Hey, you gotta change your act based on where you're going and where things are. And this is, that trending the line that we're talking about that I think that Diddy was eventually able to get to. But there was still some question marks about that and the trajectory in 1999. But to some extent, I think that kind of played to as factor. There was something about, especially some of those celebrities you mentioned, these are some more buttoned up, you know, white celebrities that never really did much on a, anything that was risky. So someone that has the image of Puff at that time, it's like, Ooh, I'm doing this risky thing. It's almost like the person in high school that wants to date the Bad Boy literally called his label bad voice. So they're leading into that whole persona, and I think it worked a bit to his advantage there as well. [00:42:07] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, totally. And you know, another thing people talk about, you know, I think that this time, and a lot of times I think there's a lot of jealousy going around and, you know, Puffy does this, puffy does that. But, know, one of the things that I, that I've always heard is that, Like, yeah, he's the last one at the club and you know, he's always out and, doing whatever, but he's also the, first one in, like, he outworks everybody and you know, he's somehow manages on, you know, like a couple hours of sleep at night or something. I mean, this is another thing you sometimes hear about fantastically successful people. I hear about this, about like Richard Branson and other people too, that they just can operate on four hours of sleep or something like that. And man, you know, I mean, if you think about it, if you have that much confidence and you're that brilliant, and then also you get an extra four hours a day, you know, you get another, was it, 28 hours a week, you get like an extra day every week basically to just like do shit. that's pretty hard to, contend with. I mean, like an extra day, like two extra waking days, to get things done. I mean, that, that's a pretty big advantage. [00:43:13] Dan Runcie: That was a whole 90s mentality from, overall, from people that were successful. Now that I'm thinking about it, cuz of course Richard Branson, that the 90s was a transformational decade for him. You are Bill Clinton, especially when he was president, talk about getting four or five hours of sleep at night, still being able to operate and do his thing. Even folks like Madeline Albright, who worked for him and in his cabinet were doing the same thing. And even someone like Kobe Bryant, there's that memorable. A piece of the Redeem Team documentary that came out on Netflix last year, where the younger guys at the time, LeBron, Bosh, Wade, were all going out to the club. Were all gonna go out for the night because that Olympics was in Beijing and they're coming back from the club and Kobe's on his way to the gym in the morning. And then Kobe spoke about this himself as well. He is like, no, I'm gonna do another practice to wake up earlier than everyone else. So you think about how this compounds over time, and that's what you're saying about how that essentially gives you two, three extra days a week. You do that time and time again, and just how much better you get. Granted the fact that those people can still do that while not requiring that much sleep. I know. I mean, I couldn't do that myself. I need those hours of sleep, but I commend those people that can. [00:44:25] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, and who knows, you know, from a health perspective, how it affects you, you know, sort of like later in life and whatever. And, you know, do you lose more years of your life on the tail end because you didn't sleep more earlier? I mean, I guess we'll never really know, and it's hard to kind of pull out the factors and really test that.  But in any case, you know, it does give a decided advantage, at least in the, present tense. And, he really kind of like worked with that. but you know, I mean, and then just when you thought that he was kind of out of the woods, with the specter of violence, you know, again, 1999, there's the whole thing in the club, a gun goes off, you know, there's this whole like, situation, Diddy and Shine are in the club. There's this dispute, whatever, and you know, who knows what really happened, but at the end of it, Shine went off to go to jail. And, you know, and Diddy ended up, you know, without really any kind of anything other than like, a little bit of reputational hit. So, I think that, you know, he continued to walk that line, right? And there were just these instances kept popping up. But once again, he always managed to sort of, you know, avoid any really serious repercussions and then, you know, go on to some even bigger and better commercial thing, shortly thereafter, you know, which he did eventually with Ciroc and, what have you. But, you know, it didn't really seem to hurt anything with Bad Boy. Although I think around that time, you know, his career as a solo artist started faltering a little bit to be sure [00:45:42] Dan Runcie: And I think this is a good time to talk about the proverbial Bad Boy curse that's been discussed. There are a number of artists that have had their issues with Bad Boys, specifically with Diddy in terms of whether they feel like they were fairly compensated for things. And it's artists like Faith Evans 112, Mark Curry, and the Locks as well as most recently as a couple years ago, Mase famously people that have publicly claimed to try to get what's theirs called out Diddy for not doing certain things. And then on the flip side, you have people that surrounded themselves with Diddy, and Diddy was the one that came out, scott free, and they were the ones that ended up in challenges and some of that Diddy benefited from by associating himself with them, but they didn't necessarily work outta that same way. You of course mentioned Shine, who, his career never really took off after he had that brief moment where that Bad Boy song came out. I think that was in 2000. They had sampled that, the Barrington Levee reggae song and then had him on that. But you had a few instances like that. I look back on one of my favorite songs from The Bad Boy era. let's Get It with G. Dep and Black Rob. And the sad part about that song is that you have G. Dep, the first person that was. Or essentially his lead single, he's saying that he's saying, or he did special delivery as well. G. Dep eventually ended up being locked up for a murder that he had done in the 90s, but then it had some run-ins after that Black Rob unfortunately passed away a few years ago, and I don't think was ever really able to capture that momentum after Whoa. And a few of the other songs he had with Bad Boy had come out. And then of course you had Diddy who, you know, is still thriving doing his thing. And I think that's true as well. You look at an artist like Lone who l kind of had his moment where they were trying to make lone really be a thing, especially with the, I need a girl, part one and part two, but then Loon as well, ends up getting locked up. I think there was a heroin charge or something like that. So all of these folks that were around Diddy in some way ended up having their challenges. Not all of them, but some of them. [00:47:50] Zack Greenburg: For sure. And I think, you know, probably around this time, you know, the sort of like the turn of the millennium was, you know, the moment, when did he kind of realize that he had to, he did have to start figuring out his next step. And if it wasn't gonna be him, as an artist, you know, and it wasn't gonna be somebody else on his roster, it was gonna have to be something else.  And so I think this is sort of like when you think about the Bad Boy era, you know, I don't know, I think about it as sort of like early 90s to late to, you know, to really the end of the decade. And although, you know, of course it went on and it continues to stay at different, you know, sort of capacities. It's like that was sort of the prime era. And, I think once the fortunes of the label became too closely intertwined with Diddy's as a solo artist, then when he stopped being such a big deal as a solo artist, the prospects of the of Bad Boy itself were a little bit more limited. [00:48:45] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Question for you. Do you think that, well, lemme take a step back. In the Cash Money episode that we talked about not just the disputes people have had with Birdman and Slim over the years, over disputes, but also the notorious reputation that they've built up. Do you feel like the reputation with Puff is similar in that way? And if it's different, why do you think so? [00:49:09] Zack Greenburg: So you mean Puff like the Cash Money sort of similarly having trouble paying people? [00:49:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, Yeah, and whether that reputation has stuck with Puff the same way that it's clearly stuck with Bert and Slim. [00:49:21] Zack Greenburg: I think they both have, you know, or rather the three of them, I think it does follow them around, but in different ways. I mean, I think, I think with cash money, there's some element of it that's like, well, you know, I think their response to a lot of it is this stuff began when, you know, the things weren't properly papered up and, you know, nobody really knew how these things worked and blah, blah, blah. And you know, you can sort of agree with that or not, right? Or maybe you could say it is to some extent your responsibility to make sure things are paid up, you know, once you become that successful. but, you know, I think that Puff was sort of like, you know, Bad Boy was, done through Clive through real estate. It was done through a major label, sort of from the beginning. And, you know, I think you could argue actually that that's why Cash Money was ultimately worth more, like, was like a bigger source of the Williams Brothers wealth than Bad Boy ever was, for Diddy. And he had to go, you know, do these other things.  But you know, like it wasn't as though there were no lawyers involved. It wasn't as though there wasn't some big record label apparatus. There absolutely was. And you know, so I, think that excuse sort of like, doesn't fly quite as much. it's probably not leveled quite as much with him either, but, you know, but it's definitely there and, it's sort of like, it's hard to look past it in some regards. [00:50:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think that one of the reasons why I think the public image of it is different is because of the businesses that the two are involved in. Bird man's a music man almost in the same way that Clive Davis is a music man. That's what we know him as even in the conversation you had shared last time where you were doing this extensive feature profile with them on Forbes and you were gonna have another follow-up conversation with him that night, and he's like, no, no. Bird Man's still in the studio. He's doing his thing like that's what he wants to do versus Puff has his interest in all these other areas, beverages, spirits, sports, entertainment, now with Revolt or Sean John, or whatever it is. So there's so many more things we know him as, or he's running the New York City marathon, he's trying to launch this thing, and all of those things can broaden your image of him. So if you hear a complaint about the one particular aspect of this business, that's one area of what he's doing, as opposed to us knowing Bird and Slim as. The owners of this record label, and now there's a dispute with the one thing that we know them for. [00:51:49] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Okay. I see what you mean. So it's sort of like, in a way it's less central like the music is less central to his identity, therefore we hear less about the disputes because we just hear less about the music side overall. [00:52:01] Dan Runcie: Right. [00:52:02] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, and then, when you look at what happened to Bad Boy, you know, even just from a corporate perspective, it was a 2005, he sold 50% of it to Warner for 30 million bucks, something like that. So, obviously that, means, you know, by those numbers it was worth 60 million. At the time there was probably just the recorded music side and there was publishing as well, which is separate. I think you did some other publishing deals too, but you know, that number in 2005, I mean, I'm sure that's lower than. Cash money was valued at in 2005. But, you know, he just kind of made the decision to pull some money off the table, right? And I think that says some, something about his priorities too, that he wasn't that focused on the music side of things. So, you know, like, let's make this deal and then move on, to the next thing. And I think a couple years after that was when he launched Ciroc or, you know, came on with Ciroc and launched his Ciroc campaign presence, whatever you wanna call it. you know, partnership thing. So, I think ultimately for Bad Boy, you know, I think it had a peak that was as high as really, you know, any label, in hip hop did. But its fortunes became so wrapped up with Puffy that once, once he moved away from music, it's like, how are you ever really gonna come back from that? [00:53:15] Dan Runcie: Right. It really wasn't a business it was a business, but almost in the same way that a lot of people that are creators now and trying to do things, there's this ongoing discussion or debate they have about whether are you trying to build a business with a roster around you, or is this more so a soul entity? And I think Bad Boy definitely saw both of those things, but you normally seen in the flip side where you start with the lead person being known as the thing, and then they add the roster around them. But Bad Boy was kind of the opposite, where you had this roster and then it becomes the lead person becoming more known for the thing. [00:53:48] Zack Greenburg: And I think it moved away from that assembly line idea, you know, the Motown thing, the Coachella thing, whatever, you know, you're gonna, buy the tickets for, you know, who's there. It just became all about Puff and, you know, I think in a way he realized it was more lucrative that way, right? N o matter how involved he was in however many different pro projects as sort of the, the Berry Gordy, he could make more, you know, for himself being Puff. And in a way, when you look at Ciroc, it's like, you know, it's the same thing, right? Like he's selling the Art of celebration.  He's selling his brand of success. He just doesn't have to sign other artists to it, you know? So I see has Ciroc Boys, you know, that's, I mean, it is almost like a record label to some extent, you know, if you like an extension of, Bad Boy. If you think about, you know, the different artists who are kind of like involved on some level, you know, over the years with that brand, it just, you don't have to get involved in like publishing and, you know, licensing and mechanical royalties and all of that fun stuff. [00:54:50] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think with that it's a good chance to talk about some of these categories we have here. So what do you think is the best signing that Bad Boy did? [00:54:59] Zack Greenburg: I think a hundred percent, you gotta go with Biggie, no doubt. I mean, you know, if you're calling the signing $500,000 to get him over from uptown, you know, plus whatever they ended up paying him. I mean, you think about the success of Life after Death and all the other albums and, you know, the albums that, were sort of in the hopper after he died. I mean, I think hard to top that. [00:55:19] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Yeah, No debates there. That was the same one. What do you think is the best business move to come from Bad Boy? [00:55:26] Zack Greenburg: I would, I would argue that, I would argue Sean John because, you know, in creating the Bad Boy image, that was, you know, really bankrolled like all those videos, obviously Bankrolled by Arista, bankrolled by, you know, the, parent company, you know, Puffy created this aura around himself, which was very fashion oriented. And then he was able to parlay that into creating, you know, an actual fashion brand that he owned, or at least, you know, partially owned and himself, which then generated hundreds of billions of dollars. And then he sold and got, you know, whatever it was, a hundred million dollars and he bought it back. but anyway, he did really well for himself. I think with the help of this shine that was kind of like given or enabled at least, by a Bad Boy. [00:56:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's a good one. The other thing that I wanna give some love to, that we haven't talked about much yet, but was the Bad Boy Street team and how they went about promoting and pushing their records all over the major cities. A lot of people may think that Bad Boy invented to the street team. I think I still do give loud of records credit for that, but Bad Boy did take things to another level, and this goes back to Puff and his strength as a promoter. This is what Club promoters do. This is how you push and get the word out there. So he's able to replicate himself. He's able to empower the people to feel like they're part of Bad Boy himself and making sure that they're styled in the same way, to be able to help sell that same image that Puff wants to sell himself. And you saw him replicate this as well with Ciroc Boys and things like that. And shout out to Sean Perez, who worked with Puff at Bad Boy and on Ciroc on this same strategy. [00:57:07] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Although, you know, it was a great one, and a great strategy, but it didn't always work. What's the line? I felt like Bad Boys Street team, I couldn't work. the locks. True. [00:57:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Usually worked. But yeah, they just needed to see the vision as they said. what's the best dark horse move? You have a good one for this. [00:57:27] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. maybe a little controversial. I don't know. I'm gonna go shine. Because if Paul hadn't signed Shine, I mean, I don't know, you know, I'm not a lawyer or anything, but, all I know is that something went down in that club and, Sean ended up doing, you know, like a decade and, Puff, you know, got away without any trouble. So, I think that worked out pretty well. But actually I think they're back friends also, Shine, you know, like converted to Judaism, moved to Israel, then he's like back in Belize where I think he was born and now he's like a member of parliament or something, and Puff has helped him with his campaign and there, so there's like pictures of them together and they've managed to patch things up. So, you know, I think that speaks to Puffy's gratitude for whatever, you know, whatever went on in the late 90s there, [00:58:10] Dan Runcie: so signing a fall, man. [00:58:12] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Well, well, whatever you wanna call it. I don't know. I don't know, and people forget that Shine was supposed to be the next Biggie. Like you know, he was sort of like the heir apparent [00:58:21] Dan Runcie: He had the voice, He had the vibe. you hear Bad Boys, that, I know I mentioned it earlier, but you hear that Bad Boy song in Beson Levy, you're like, oh, he has it. It's almost in that same way where there's people that have that grit that reminds you of that, like New York Grit sound, whether it's a, Chuck D or even when, I know people may laugh at this, but when Ja Rule first came out and they were hearing him on mixtapes, they thought he had that same sound too, and Shine had it. [00:58:45] Zack Greenburg: yeah, yeah. Absolutely mean DMX had that edge. So, yeah, I wondered what would've happened with Shine, you know, ultimately if things had kind of gone differently there. but you know, and I think Puff has expressed this, but he's kind of, he feels bad about the way things went down and he, he feels like, you know, that Shine ultimately got the short end of the stick and, you know, but they seem to have, you know, gotten over it at like even more than some artists have gotten over whatever, you know, royalty situation, that they don't agree with. So, you know, there's a dark horse candidate [00:59:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good one. The one I have is the original hip hop artist partnering on a fast food release, and that is of course the Big Mac. We go back to mid 90s, I think it was 93 or 94. They have the Big Mac meal, and that was part of the push to have Biggie be more present. And this is where you're already seeing how Puff is thinking about how to have his artist be part of that lifestyle. What are you trying to sell, what are you trying to integrate with? And then of course, we saw things blow up 25 years later with all of the meals, with the Travis Scott meal and the J Balvin deal and all of the things that McDonald's had done, especially in the beginning of the pandemic, you saw Burger King and others fall in line. And these have always happened in waves, but I always point back to that one as that was the original one. I'm necessarily know about the sales numbers, but if anything it sticks out more so as. That mentality. [01:00:12] Zack Greenburg: a really good I, I like Uh, certainly fits with everything that, that puff has been about, um, forward too. So [01:00:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. My missed opportunity for bad. Boy, we've alluded to this several times, but not being able to make things work to some degree. In the two thousands. I think that a lot of people talk about the demise of New York hip hop and how strong New York hip hop was in the 90s and what happened in the two thousands. And I think you still had strong artists in the two thousands. You clearly had the 50 cent beef. You clearly had Daisy and Nas. These are all things that happened in the two thousands and heat up, but there really was an opportunity to be able to see some of that continue. We saw that brief moment, I think it was in 2006, where Diddy releases press play. They signed Cassie and you start to see a little bit of this comeback. He then has another one in 2011, I believe, where he releases that song, I'm Coming Home and that becomes another [01:01:16] Zack Greenburg: that was a really fun song. I like that song a lot [01:01:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and that was a big hit. That was a big hit. And it's like, okay, you know, Diddy's over 40. Now he's still able to command himself on the radio, And granted, I don't think that Diddy necessarily tried to position himself as the best rapper himself like he wasn't Jay-Z necessarily. Where, okay, it makes sense for you to continue to be the brand, but if you know that you're not necessarily going to be known as that, how do you find ways to continue that? And I know that they tried to sign artists, and I know that's several of the artists I mentioned had had their struggles. But where was the opportunity to have a bit more time to nurture these artists and not just nurture 'em from a talent perspective? Cause I think many of them were clearly talented, even on the R&B side. I think about artists like Mario Winans and folks like that. But how do you find the way to really cultivate and build this as a unit the same way that others in New York were starting to do at the time? It's almost like when Bad Boys started to decline. You saw the rise of Roc-A-Fella, you saw the rise of Dipset, you saw the rise of all these other groups in New York that were doing their thing. [01:02:16] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think that's a great one for missed opportunity. I mean, I was gonna say the locks, you know, to go back to that line, Bad Boy Street team couldn't work the locks. But, you know, I love the locks. They were great and, you know, like, ah, how did you, you mess that one up? But, you know, if you kind of look at what the locks were about, and what Bad Boy had kind of evolved to be about, you know, this was sort of like post shiny suit era. Bad Boy had gotten away a little bit from what it was. In, you know, the early to mid 90s and it was like, maybe got a little too glitzy and so it was sort of at odds with where hip hop was at the time. And, you know, this was around when 50 cent was becoming really big and kind of taking things over. Things had gotten sort of like a little more aggressive again and, you know, like, a little more of that edge. But, you know, Puff had kind of like moved even beyond that to the point where, you know, I don't know that puffy in that era could have even been an artist on his own label and in the early to mid 90s, right? And whereas I think the Locks would've been a perfect fit in the early to mid 90s. It was just a little bit of an odd, you know, combination by that point, with what Bad Boy had kind of, you know, evolved into. so in a funny way, I would almost say like, they should have done a trade, they should have traded the locks for Camron or for Dipset. You know, I mean, I feel like Dipset, there's the Harlem connection, you know, like Come home with Me, had a little bit more of that Bad Boy kind of vibe to it. [01:03:52] Dan Runcie: definitely. [01:03:54] Zack Greenburg: yeah, yeah, [01:03:55] Dan Runcie: Oh boy. Especially with the samples as well [01:03:57] Zack Greenburg: Samples and, you know, whereas like the locks I think would've fit more in with what, Roc-A-Fella's doing at the time, you know, in state property and all that stuff. So, you know, like little fantasy baseball trade. I know it doesn't work like that in music, but, [01:04:12] Dan Runcie: I wish it did though. I wish it did. [01:04:15] Zack Greenburg: That could have been really fun, right? And I think we said last time that Cameron and D ipset said were sort of like a bit of a missed opportunity for Roc-A-Fella and, you know, I wonder if things had been flipped, if it would've turned out differently for both those acts. [01:04:28] Dan Runcie: Great example. I think that Bad Boy not being able to work the locks it in many ways reminds me of the The oklahoma City Thunder, not being able to figure out why they should keep James Harden. And then they trade James Harden for Kevin Martin and then James Harden goes on to beat this MVP candidate and it's like, oh shit, we had that. Well, I mean, you knew you had something, the guy was sixth man of the year. He played meaningful minutes in the finals, in 2012 when they played the heat at the time. But yeah, that's exactly what this was. And then he goes and does his own thing and it's like, oh shit. That's what we had. And you saw the same with Jada Kiss to some extent. Oh one, he releases Kiss the Game Goodbye and we gonna make it is one of the best hip hop tracks from that era. And it's like, oh, we had this all along granted. And I don't think that the locks, I mean the locks still were on plenty of Grammy award-winning singles and big splashy hits like the Honey Remix and stuff like that when they're on Bad Boy. But you were able to really see them get and. Live their own life and breathe in away. So, yeah. Oh man. The locks for Camron [01:05:34] Zack Greenburg: The locks were Dipset to make it even. Yeah. [01:05:37] Dan Runcie: That would've made that whole versus battle something completely different. [01:05:41] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So, I don't know, maybe it's not too late. maybe they can work that out. you call Puff. I'll call Jay. How about that? [01:05:49] Dan Runcie: I know. Let's do that. Let's do that [01:05:50] Zack Greenburg: Or you wanna flip it? I don't know. [01:05:54] Dan Runcie: Well, the one they keep talking about now is, well by they, not the actual people a verses, but Puff and, Jermaine Dupri himself, they keep talking about that one, trying to do a so-so death versus, Bad Boy versus, but we'll see if that one ever happens. I feel like that's kind of Puff doing the hype machine and just staying in the conversation. [01:06:12] Zack Greenburg: You know, I don't know. I think it would be more fun to see like, if you could get, you know, obviously you couldn't do Bad Boy Death Row with, Puff and Suge, but you could do what if you did it with like, Dre, you know, and Snoop, you know, and then you had Puff and somebody else. I don't know, but I don't think they would do it. It's like maybe a time that, you know, we don't wanna revisit it anymore, but yeah, we do hear, [01:06:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah. but no, there's definitely something there. But yeah, before we wrap things up, though, I know the answer to this one, but who do we think want the most out of Bad Boy? [01:06:41] Zack Greenburg: Oh, yeah. Puff, I [01:06:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, not even a question. I mean, maybe to his fault to some degree, but it's one of these things where I don't think it would've reached the same heights it did, especially in the late 90s if he wasn't front and center. But that was more of a short term money grab, in my opinion, just given the nature of it and not being able to really build a strong business. That said, he was able to build strong businesses off the back of what he did, and we all know how music is a platform to be able to build other businesses, just so shout out to him for doing that. But there was a world where you could have done all these things by having the right people around you. [01:07:16] Zack Greenburg: For sure. And you could also say, of course, like with Biggie, you know, biggie wasn't really breaking on Uptown, but he did break on Bad Boy because Puff knew how to market him. you know, certainly it all worked out very well for, Clive Davis. you know, I think that kept him relevant in a way that, you know, would not have been possible otherwise, perhaps for like an extra, you know, couple decades, in certain spheres anyway.  And, you know, still considered one of the great, record executives of all time. And I think, you know, Puff. Puff really helped burnish that legacy. So, you know, I mean, there were other people who won, but I think Puff, certainly won the most [01:07:52] Dan Runcie: Without a doubt. anything else before we wrap things up on Bad boy? [01:07:56] Zack Greenburg: Can't Stop Won't stop, right? What's he gonna do next? I don't know, you know, I mean, just when you think that you know, Bad Boy is like in, mostly in the rear view and it's, you know, legacy nostalgia thing, you know, he goes out and he does a Bad Boy reunion tour and he manages to pull in all these great people. I mean, I remember going to see him at the Barclays Center when they did that whole thing. And, you know, in addition to, to pulling, you know, most of that roster together, he just brought Jay-Z out, like surprise, you know, here you go. So, he has that ability to just pull all kinds of rabbits outta hats. you know, and, that could be Bad Boy related or not. [01:08:32] Dan Runcie: That show was a lot of fun. I saw it here. they had it at Oracle, Oakland. It was a lot of fun, waiting to see if they're gonna do a movie. You think Puff would sign off on that? [01:08:41] Zack Greenburg: Ooh. Yeah. You know, I mean, I think it depends, how it aligns with everything else, you know, is there like a Ciroc placement that could be had? you know, that kind of thing. I could see it. I could see it. [01:08:52] Dan Runcie: I could see it too. I know that there's this fine line where some of these movies, especially if the main person involved is a little bit too attached to the project, then there's certain things that are gonna be sanitized over and even a conversation like you and I had, a lot of the things that we discussed may not even make it there. And I know that there's a fine line with these things. I think that's Straight Outta Compton. Navigated that pretty well. And I think that's still my favorite hip hop biopic that we've seen done so far. Granted, people still felt that they glossed over Dr. Dre's controversies with women. And to be honest, I think that differ that movie would be received differently and maybe even have some different reviews, especially if it came out in a Post Me Too era. But it'll be interesting to see if they do something like that. I mean, Puff is always in the business of maximizing things. And I'd had Tarik Brooks, who's now president of Combs Global on the podcast, and it sounds like, wow, he probably wouldn't wanna sell any of his music, rights that he may own in the same way they could be interested in further multimedia. [01:09:56] Zack Greenburg: right. I mean, there was that biggie biopic that, you know, that may have already kind of gobbled up some of the, the part of the story that, you know, would, be involved in a Bad Boy. [01:10:05] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. Notorious, right? That came out in like 09' or so. [01:10:09] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, gosh, I can't believe it's that long ago already, but, you never know. It's already been, gosh, almost 15 years, [01:10:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's like how many Whitney Houston Biopics have we had, right? I think there was at least two of 'em. And then you had this bigger one come out last year, so you never know. [01:10:23] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sponsored by Ciroc. [01:10:26] Dan Runcie: Sponsored by Ciroc that this podcast is not, No, just to clarify. No free ads here, but No. [01:10:34] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, [01:10:36] Dan Runcie: But Zach, thanks for joining. Pleasure as always, man. [01:10:39] Zack Greenburg: As always, Dan, thanks for having me. Thu, 29 Jun 2023 09:00:00 -0000 30 years of Bad Boy Entertainment (with Zack Greenburg) full Dan Runcie We can’t tell the story of hip-hop without mentioning Diddy and the record label he started. Bad Boy took off in 1993 after Puff was fired from Uptown Records. He brought TheNotorious B.I.G. with him from Uptown Record, and signed a 50-50 deal with Clive Davis’s Arista Records, and it was off to the races. Bad Boy survived the tragic fallout of the East Coast vs. West Coast rivalry, and reached even bigger heights after Biggie’s death. Puff began to rise as a solo artist, but did the rest of the artists suffer as a result? Friend of the pod, Zack O’Malley Greenburg, joins me on this episode to cover 30 years of Bad Boy Entertainment. Here’s what we hit on: 0:35 Sean Combs come-up story 5:16 Diddy breaks in with Uptown Records 8:22 Starting Bad Boy Records 14:11 What sets Diddy apart 21:04 How Diddy controlled the narrative 23:58 Bad Boy’s formula for success  29:00 East Coast vs. West Coast rivalry 30:39 Bad Boy’s historic 1997-98 run 45:42 Bad Boy curse? 48:44 Diddy’s reputation compared to Cash Money 54:50 Best signing?  55:19 Best business move? 57:19 Best dark horse move? 1:00:19 Missed opportunity? 1:08:52 Possibility of biopic? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Zack Greenburg: Diddy's ability to sort of walk the line and step back, you know, I think that's what ultimately kept Bad Boy in the position that, you know, that stayed and kept him in the position that he continued to be in. [00:00:09] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:35] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is another case study style breakdown, and this time we chose to dive deep on the one, the only Bad Boy Entertainment when it comes to branding and when it comes to marketing. I don't know if there's another record label that has as identifiable as a sound of vibe as bad Boy, you knew what that vibe was. Puff said it himself, they take hits from the eighties, but do it sound so crazy? And that was the formula, and it worked time and time again. What Puff did was smart, it was a modern approach to how Berry Gordy approached the record business with Motown. But then he put his own spin on it, interning with Andre Harrell at Uptown Records, learning from him and then putting his own spin on it even more, making it relevant for the 90s and truly becoming the icon that was synonymous with shiny suits with that Bad Boy flavor. And so much of the success of one of the best MCs ever, the Notorious BIG, some of the most iconic R&B groups at the time, and singers such as Faith Evans, 112 and many more. And plenty of artists that unfortunately also had plenty of challenges and issues when it came to payment, drama, legal disputes and more. And we dive into all of that. I'm joined again by Zack O'Malley Greenburg. He wrote a book called Three Kings, where he dived deep into Diddy, as well as Dr. Dre and Jay-Z in this book, so he's well-versed and shared a bunch of great stories in this one. So let's dive in, really excited for this one. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:06] Dan Runcie: We are back to talk about the wondrous world that Sean Combs built himself Bad Boy entertainment and joined by the one and only Zach Greenburg. Welcome back [00:02:15] Zack Greenburg: Oh, thanks for having me, Dan. [00:02:17] Dan Runcie: Bad Boy is so fascinating because Puff is someone who has in many ways been this larger than life character even before people knew him externally as that. And he has really stayed true with that throughout his time in hip hop and even before then. And most people know the origin story starting back in his days at Howard. But I think based on the research you've done, I know you have some backstory with some of the lessons and some of the things he did even before that. So walk us back. Who was puff in the early days before the world? Got to know him. [00:02:52] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think the funny part is that, that puffy was always puffy and, you know, it just took a while for a little while for the world to kind of figure it out. But you know, there are these kind of consistent themes when you go back through his youth and you, kind of get a sense of who he was. And, you know, I remember writing my book Three Kings, you know, Diddy being one of these kings, talking to people who grew up around him. He really was that same guy from the very beginning. So even when he was a kid, you know, he spent his very earliest years in Harlem, but then moved to Mount Vernon, kind of a suburban neighborhood. you know, just north of the city limits. And you know, he had not just one paper route, he had multiple paper routes and on every, you know, every route. He had this philosophy of like, he wasn't just gonna take the paper and fling it into the family's yard. He was gonna get up and he was gonna go, you know, open the screen door and put the paper in between the screen door and the main door so that people didn't have to go up and do so like he was, you know, that dedicated, that hardworking from the very beginning. you know, I think another story I learned from his youth, Puffy was like, there was some, Some debate, you know, some kid had a pool party and, Puffy wasn't invited. there may have been some racism at play, we don't know. But anyway, Puffy's solution was to convince his mom to build a pool in their backyard and then start his own pool parties and, you know, I mean, it's like the most puffy move ever, right? So he just ended up finding, you know, wealthier and wealthier backers to build the proverbial pool as the years went on. [00:04:23] Dan Runcie: That is the perfect story to encapsulate him because I feel like I could imagine other people having white parties. He doesn't get invited to the white party, so he's like, all right, bet I'm gonna go start my own white party. And now it's this annual thing, however many years running. [00:04:37] Zack Greenburg: Exactly. I mean, and you know, you know, as you kind of trace his evolution, you know, in between it was the same thing. So, you know, we all know the Howard Days, he was taking the Amtrak up, sometimes hiding in the bathroom, so they didn't have to pay for the tickets. He didn't have any money but, you know, he would go up back up to New York on the weekends, he would plan these parties. He started to build a name for himself. and it was exactly that, you know, so from the pool parties, in Mount Vernon to the parties that he was throwing, you know, his colleges to the White party, you get that through line of Puffy that, you know, kind of continues all the way through, through the Ciroc era, you know, I think, which really makes this sort of art celebration, ethos, you know, all the more credible, right. [00:05:16] Dan Runcie: Right, and you mentioning him taking Amtrak. Of course, that's him going from DC to New York to go to Uptown Records where he pushes and fights to get his unpaid internship. Working with Andre Harrell, who was on the Ascension himself. He had started that record label in the mid to late eighties. He then sees the rise. He's early on, new Jack Swing has so many of the early folks making that sound there. And then Puff comes in, he sees a opportunity to elevate and position that brand because the whole thing that Uptown was about, they were trying to push Ghetto Fabulous. They wanted to show that there was a opportunity for people who grew up with nothing to feel like they had that release. And Andre Harrell, he since passed away a few years ago, but he spoken about this a few times and you can see how Puff at the time adapted a lot of that. He worked with Jodeci. He was so integral with how he styled them and making sure they had the right jackets. And at the time, Jodeci was very much seen as this alternative to Boys to Men, Boys to Men was a bit more buttoned up. They made music that was G-rated that you could play everywhere. And Jodeci definitely leaned into the sex appeal, which is something that we saw continue play through with. Bad Boy records of Bad Boy Entertainment in the future. He did similar with Mary J. Blige, taking her from just being a R&B singer to giving her more of a hip hop Ben, and doing a bit more of that crossover vibe, which is something that we saw again with Bad Boy too. And as Puff continued to show his influence, things started to clash because the intern then becomes VP of A and R, and that VP in A and R starts to butt heads and really challenge Andre Harrell on a number of things. [00:07:06] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And, you know, I think, you know, like you said, Puff really had an idea of what Uptown could be that was, you know, a little bit different from Andre. But it really worked, right? It was the idea that it was, it had a little bit more of an edge to it. you know, like Jodeci had a little more edge than boys to men. you know, that every artist that was gonna be out on Bad Boy would have like, you know, would have that level of class, but also would have kind of like, you know, kind of like a street smart edge. And so, right, it was like the Tims and the backwards hat, but, you know, maybe you had like a nice jacket. It was that kind of mix. And it was very much like in line with Puffy himself. and I think, you know, it's a theme that you kind of started to see. as kind of, he moved on, you know, whether it was Bad Boy or Roc or whatever it was, the thing was synonymous with Puffy. Puffy was synonymous with the thing. But as he began to later on build these assets, you know, he could sell the businesses in a way that he couldn't sort of sell his own image and likeness necessarily. So, that started with, Uptown for sure, it was Andre's thing, but it started to feel like it was Puffy's thing. And I think there was some thought that, you know, that there sort of couldn't be two kings in the castle. And Andre eventually pushed him out and, you know, that kind of left it, the Diddy, you know, in his early twenties kind of figuring out like, Hey, you know, what am I gonna do next?  How am I gonna really start my own thing here? [00:08:22] Dan Runcie: And I have this quote from Andre. This was from a documentary a few years later. He says, when Puff got fired, he was on payroll and his artists were on payroll. He's still recording his artists, but he was able to find the best deal, so we never fired him to hurt him. But he fired him to basically make him rich. I will say that quote is much nicer than certain things that Andre said immediately after that firing, especially in the 90s. But it was cool to see the two of them find opportunities to continue to work together after that. But I think the key thing from his time in Uptown is that he was able to find and work with art is that eventually he started working with on Bad Boy. That's when he first works and discovers Big. That's when he first works and really begins to hone in on that sound. And then he officially launched Bad Boy in 1991, but it really wasn't until 1993. He starts working with Big, he starts working with Craig Mack and then it all leads up to this deal that he ends up signing with Arista records to officially do this joint venture with Arista. Arista, of course, was run by Clive Owen, legendary music executive, and they do their 50 50 split. And as the story goes, Clive was on the fence. At first he wanted to hear more, but then Puff Plays flavor in your ear. Craig Max first single, and he was like, all right, I need to be part of this, whatever it is. So that was the song that took things off and made it happen. [00:09:50] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, Clive Davis, of course, you know, legendary, record men, you know, discovered Janice Joplin, Whitney Houston, Puffy, like you could say, he discovered all these people. they were, they were kind of there already, and, I sort of suspect they would've had their success even if it were not for Clive Davis. But, you know, that, we could debate that. But, know, Clive Davis certainly had an eye for talent, one way or the other. So, I mean, I think what's really fascinating too is, you know, you got think where Puffy was at that point in his life before he got that deal. He was shopping Bad Boy around right? To a bunch of different labels and it says so much about him and his whole ethos, the way he approached it, and this was another anecdote that I found in my reporting, by one of the founders of The Fader who happened to work at EMI at the time. He was in the room when Puffy brought the Bad Boy deal, to the folks at e Emmi and, you know, so like, just to refresh, here's Puff early twenties, just been fired. Just had his first kid, I think. And also, you know, he'd been a part of, this charity basketball tournament at City College where a bunch of people got, crushed in a stampede. He was ultimately found, you know, not guilty of any kind of criminal charges or anything, but his name was all over the papers. Like there's a lot of negative press around him. He was kind of, you know, almost radioactive at this point, or at least one might have thought that turned out he wasn't. But, so anyway, he goes into this meeting with e Emmi and, you know, Their big thing was, Vanilla Ice. And he sort of goes into this meeting and he's like, that dude's corny. Like, I have no interest in anything having to do with Vanilla Ice. Let me tell you how to run your business. And, you know, so he proceeds to like, give them this vision. And then at the end of it, I mean, and I'll read the quote cause it's just so good. he says, when you guys get in a room with all them suits and you're gonna decide what you're gonna pay Puff, just when you get to a number that you think is gonna make Puff happy, I love how he was referring to himself the third person, right? He says, get crazy on top of that. And then when you're there, I want whipped cream and a cherry on top. and this is the best part, he goes, I don't even want to think about the money. That shouldn't even be an issue. Don't be coming at me with no n-word money. Goodbye. And like that was vintage puff. Like that was billionaire Puffy. Before he was billionaire, before he even had. Like before we had a company. So, you know, I think there's just such a great lesson in there, which is kind of like, you know, the sort of, if you can pull off the, fake it till you make it, if you can have that kind of swagger. And to be fair, not available to everybody and like, you know, don't try this at home, kind of if you don't have it. But man, if you can pull that off, if you have that kind of confidence in yourself, you can accomplish some pretty incredible things. He didn't even, you know, end up going with EMI but I think he made a similar pitch at Arista and, you know, and that ultimately got him the deal, that created Bad Boy and, you know, that was really the engine for so much of, what he ended up achieving as the years went on. [00:12:46] Dan Runcie: That story is one of the reasons why he has lived on to become meed and in many ways become a bit of a gift himself. Whether you look at the Chappelle Show skit where, Dave Chappelle is making fun of making the band, and he has that whole sketch about, I want you to get me some Cambodian milk from a goat, or whatever it is. And it's something that sounds completely absurd, but one, it sounded like a lot of the shit that he would say in that MTV show make in the band. And it sounds exactly like that quote that you just shared from that story. The difference is he did this, whether it was for pure entertainment on a show like making the band or when there was really things at stake, like he was at this point when there wasn't a deal in place, he was recently fired. But regardless of whether he's up or down, trying to get it still the same guy. [00:13:39] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. You know, and I think it just kind of goes to the point like, did he creates brands. He is the brand. He imbued the brand with his essence. And then the brand becomes that much more valuable, whether it's a brand that he can sell, you know, for some huge gain, or whether it's a brand that is compensating him, you know, handsomely for his association or in some cases both.  That's kind of the formula and, you know, not everybody can pull it off because not everybody has a brand that is that clear. [00:14:11] Dan Runcie: And let's dig into this because I think this is one of the things that does set him apart. Denny used to be a club promoter as well. And this is a persona that we've seen oftentimes in music where the club promoter or the party promoter works their way up to then become the executive. You see it now with Scooter Braun, someone who's a billionaire now, or close to it in his own right. And he was a party promoter in Atlanta. You saw with Desiree Perez who now runs Roc Nation. She was a party and a club promoter before as well. And you've seen it plenty of times before and I think there's a few things there. There's a hustle and a relentlessness that you need to have to make that work. You need to create momentum around some of that isn't there. You need to understand and be tapped into what people want to hear and what people wanna do and how people wanna feel entertained and how they wanna leave from something feeling like, damn, I had a good time. We need to go do that again. And that is a lifestyle and what Puff did was aligned himself by building businesses that allowed him to do that. Some of those businesses worked better than others, but I think that is the key through line there. On the flip side, I do think that some of these operators and business leaders can often struggle with the bigger picture because there's so many more elements to building companies outside of the marketing brand promotion and those things, and I think we can get into some of that here because I think we saw some of those dynamics play out with Bad Boy as well. [00:15:39] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And you know, I mean, I think one of the things about Bad Boy is it wasn't like this was the first record label to develop an ethos and kind of build a lifestyle around it. And, almost like, assembly line, right? I mean, Puffy was doing that himself at Uptown before he just took that same idea and, Pufified it even more. But, you know, I would kind of almost liken it to Motown. I mean, if you look at, Berry Gordy's role, I mean, you see Berry Gordy, credited as a producer on so many, of those songs and, you know, he wasn't like the only person in the room, producing right? he was putting together the right songwriters, the right musicians, everybody to be in the same place. And he was tying it all together with this kind of Motown ethos. And when, you know, when you had a Motown record coming out, you knew what it was. And I think that's why people in the old days used to be fan people would be fans of like, specific labels, right? They're like, I like the stuff that this label puts out, you know, I trust them. It's almost like, you know, I don't know, you know, Coachella sells out, even before the artists are announced because you know what you're gonna get if you like Coachella and you just trust that that's what's gonna happen. That's what it was like, Motown, that's what it's like with Bad Boy. So I think Diddy really followed that model that he was going to be the person, you know, sort of putting things together, you know, maybe he was going to, do a guest verse here and there. Maybe he was gonna be more involved in the production of this play of this song or another song. but it was really more in the vision and the ethos of the brand, the Bad Boy brand, what that looked like, what success looked like, you know, the Diddy version of success looked like maybe a little different from the Uptown Andre Herrell version. And, you know, it was like, like a little more swagger, like, you know, like a little more edge to it. And he was really able to kind of like, make that tangible. So, you know, I would keep going back to that as like something that sets him apart, you know, following the footsteps of the likes of Berry Gordy and [00:17:34] Dan Runcie: The Motown example is good because they also were able to maximize the most from the broader roster they had from the hits that they had Berry Gordy, of course, was famous for one artist on his record, has a huge deal. Okay, we're gonna get another artist on that record on that label to then do it again. You saw that with Aint' No Mountain High Enough. Marvin Gaye has his version that goes through the roof. Okay, let's get Diana Ross to do her own version, her own spin on it. That becomes a song in its own right. And you saw, did he do this to some extent with remixes? How one artist had the remix that worked out well. Okay, or one artist had the original song that worked out well, okay, let's get the remix now. Let's get the whole Bad Boy crew on this remix to go do their own verse and do this thing. They did that time and time again, and then in the early two thousands he had that album. We invented the remix, and there's plenty of debate on whether or not they actually did invent the remix, but that remix that they did of Flava in Ya Ear with, Craig Mack, and they had Biggie on that one as well. That is one of the more classic iconic remixes that people do go back to. And I think the other way that they're , similar too is some of the disputes that artists have had about pavements and things like that, which we can get into eventually. But that's always been the model. I think there in many ways, you're right, it's more like Motown than it is like uptown. [00:18:58] Zack Greenburg: for sure. And you know, on the Biggie point, I mean, people forget sometimes, but Biggie was originally signed to Uptown and Puffy had to go and get him back, and I think they were able to negotiate his release or his transfer of his deal from Uptown to Bad Boy for something like half a million dollars, which, you know, turned out to be, a pretty good deal all the way around. So, you know, he knew that sometimes he would have to shell out and, you know, he did from time to time. That certainly didn't stop there from being disputes, as time went on. But, you know, I think one of the other fascinating things is sort of this interplay, you know, he really walked this line, of sort of like, you know, the corner in the corner office, right? you know, the boardroom, and the street, and, he played up this sort of like lineage that he had of the Harlem gangster world like his dad, Melvin was an associate of Frank Lucas from, you know, the subject of American gangster. And you know, like his dad was known in Harlem. I think they called him, pretty Melvin. Like he was very flashy, you know, he always had the best suits and, you know, and all that kind of thing. But, you know, he definitely came from that sort of like grand gangster era. you know, Frank Lucas and Nick Barnes and all those guys. I mean, that was sort of Puffs lineage. And he definitely played up and he certainly played up, you know, sort of different sort of, street edge, you know, when things got heated in the Bad Boy Death Row situation. But at the same time, he never really wanted to go too deep into it. And I talked to somebody who sort of grew up around him, and he called him Jimmy Clean Hands, you know, because he didn't really want to get like, like he used the association. When it was sort of convenient, but also he didn't want to get too deeply associated, with that side of things. So, to me it's, a really fascinating tightrope walk, how he pulled it off. And, if he'd gone further, toward that side of things, I don't think that would've ended well for him. And if he hadn't gone quite as far as he might not have had, you know, a certain credibility or an edge that, you know, that contributed to so much of the success of Bad Boy, especially in those days. [00:21:04] Dan Runcie: And he did it at a time in the 90s when it was easier for hip hop stars to be able to control the narrative and push what they wanna push and not have other things cover or not have other things be uncovered, or all these internet rabbit holes. I could imagine him trying to do this 10, 15 years later, and it could be a situation like Rick Ross where all of a sudden there's photos of you as a correctional officer popping up on the internet and people are like, bro, what the hell's going on here? I thought every day you were hustling. I could have seen something like that happening the same way that Diddy, but by the time that plenty of people have had those debates about, oh, well, you know, Diddy was actually a kid that grew up in the suburbs and went to college and X, Y, Z, and there's plenty of ways that you could flip that story, but by the time that even became a discussion point, at least in circles where I heard him growing up, he was already an established star. So there was really nothing else that you could do at that point. [00:21:58] Zack Greenburg: yeah. And I guess he could walk that line because he really did kind of embody both, right? Like he was the son of a, you know, a Harlem gangster. he was born in Harlem. His dad was killed, you know, on I think Central Park West and 108th Street or something, you know, in a dispute a case of I think mistaken identity. I mean, so there were real, you know, tough things that, he was born into. And at the same time, he was also, you know, like the college dropout. Like you know, he went to school, he did his thing like, you know, you could say he was like a proto backpack rapper in some ways, like if you wanted to spin it that way. And he kind of embodied both of these worlds, but I think that really, if he hadn't actually lived both those lives, it would've been harder to sort of embody them simultaneously as he did. [00:22:47] Dan Runcie: And even in him, in his own right, there were many incidents that he had that people felt could have supported this narrative that he wanted to, for better or worse, whether it was the 1990 Club nightclub, the 1999 nightclub shooting after the Nas Hate Me Now Music video, him and his team going into Steve Stout's office and then, you know, assaulting him. And then everything that came up after that, or even as recently as within the past 10 years, the incident at UCLA with the coach yelling at his son. There's been plenty of things that have came up that show, you know, that the relentless, the temperament that could often work against his advantage as well. [00:23:26] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, you know, didn't he bash Steve Stout over the head with a champagne bottle or something? I mean, you know, but what's that line? We back friends like Puffy and Steve Stout, you know, like it, 50 cent had that line. I think he has a remarkable ability to, you know, to end up being sort of friendly with, people who he had these disputes with in the past. So, you know, whether, Steve Stout or, Shine or whoever, like, he finds, various ways to, sort of bridge divides in the end. I don't know how it turned out with the coach from, was it UCLA, or USC. But I suspect that's fine too. but yeah, he does find a way of patching things up. [00:23:59] Dan Runcie: No, he definitely has and we could talk a little bit more about some of the disputes that came with some of the artists, but I do wanna talk a bit about the business of Bad Boy itself and how it went about things. And one of the things that we saw from successful record labels, of course, Zach and I have done past conversations on Cash money, and Roc-A-Fella, and they'll always find innovative ways to work within their constraints or find ways to make things work even when you don't have all of the resources in the world. And one of the things that Bad Boy did was they really leaned into sampling and sampling hits from the eighties and making them the most successful things they could be. What's that line from that May song Making, taking hits from the eighties make 'em sound so Make it sound so crazy. Yeah. so they have their in-house production as well with hit men who then do most of the production, and they give you that Bad Boy sound that you can identify when you hear it immediately on a song, whether it's a total song or it's a one 12 song. And they were able to do that and that formula worked so well because you had this generation that grew up listening to those songs because their parents heard all those songs as well. These are black music classics and then they were able to repurpose them and because of the time and things weren't quite as oversaturated, it sounded quite authentic in a way where I think even some samples now can feel almost a bit forced because you can be like, okay, they're really trying to work that artist. And who knows? I might be also looking at this now, someone in my thirties as opposed to in the 90s, looking at it as someone that's growing up experiencing this. But still, I do think that there was a bit of like a authenticity and a vibe that they were able to create with each of those sample tracks. And plenty people tried to do it. Of course they didn't invent it. I know that Death Row and NWA, Dr. Dre had done it successfully before Diddy, but Diddy and Bad Boy were definitely able to put their own unique spin on making that as effective as it was. [00:25:57] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, I mean, I think to your point, but it, like it really opened up this sort of aspect of mainstream hip hop when, you know, maybe there were some radio stations that weren't gonna play some of these songs, but, you know, like a puffy song or a biggie song ordinarily, but, you know, if you have like, Oh, that's David Bowie in the background. Like I'm familiar with this. then, you might be sort of like more inclined to put it on the radio if you were a certain kind of dj, which then might reach a certain kind of listener who didn't, you know, ordinarily listen in hip hop and, you know, and you kind of have this, kind of snowball effect. you know, sure. [00:26:32] Dan Runcie: And then from a personal perspective, I'll be the first to admit the amount of songs that I had heard the first time as Bad Boy Version. And then growing up, you then later hear the original one that they sampled from the eighties or seventies, whatever Disco tracker, soul Tracker was, and you're like, oh, that's what that song was from. It's happened endless times and it continues to still happen. [00:26:54] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I must confess, I heard I'll be missing you before, I heard I'll be watching you, so, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, so yeah, and I think a lot of that narrative around the sort of peak Bad Boy sampling era, you know, I think it gets unfairly criticized as sort of being uncreative and like, you know, essentially just being cover and, not adding much to it. But, I disagree entirely, and I think that in addition to creating a different song with a different vibe and everything, you know, th those songs did introduce a whole generation of people, to eighties music that, you know, they may not have been alive to have heard, you know, from, you know, let's say I was born 85, some of these songs came out before I was born. So, yeah, I think that does get missed sometimes. [00:27:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I'm in the same boat. I knew Juicy before. I knew the original Juicy Fruit. I knew Mase Bad Boy before I knew Hollywood Swinging, and I could go on and on with all the songs that they were able to help in introduce and connect the dots there. Another thing that I think Bad Boy did at this time that was a continuation of Uptown was how intentional and borderline maniacal Puff was about continuing that image. So, they had the Can't Stop Boat Stop documentary that came out a couple years ago. And the artist from one 12, which was the main male R&B group that Puff had signed to the record label at the time, they said that they were styled, dressed and personified to be an image of Puff themselves, to essentially be Puff as R&B singers, which was really interesting. And then on the more controversial side, which I don't think would ever fly in the same way today, Faith Evans, who was married to Biggie at the time, she was sent by Puff to go to tanning salons cuz she a light-skinned black woman. They sent her to tanning salons so that her skin can be darker because he wanted to be able to sell her as a certain image that would never fly again the same way today. But that's how Puff was. He was so maniacal, even things down to the nail color and things like that for women. He wanted to make sure that people looked a certain way. [00:29:01] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and I think what's, you know, especially interesting when you, kind of zoom back on the 90s and that, that era of Bad Boys, you know, given the level of control he had over, you know, that level of detail, you know, the whole east coast, west coast thing, the whole Bad Boy Death Row thing obviously got way out of control. and, you know, culminating in, the desert of big and pop and you know, obviously we don't know exactly who was behind each of those things, but it's, you know, still kind of debate to this day. But, the fact is that, you know, got kind of wrapped up in this kind of, know, sort of thing, like the fact that Puffy could bring Bad Boy back from that, and kind of like continue to have the same brand, you know, after everything that went down, you know, I think is another testament to like the identity of the brand, right? I mean, you know, cuz I remember in that period of time hip hop was really under fire from, you know, so, you know, like the Tipper Gores of the world and the parental advisories and all that, and there was this narrative of like, oh, this music is dangerous. And there was a whole period of time, you know, after everything that went down, in the mid to late 90s, like there were questions like, is hip hop? You know, really a viable commercial genre? Are brands really gonna want to be attached to this? you know, because of the violence that happened, you know, really publicly there. And I think, you know, whether you love him or hate him, like, I think he deserves some credit for pulling things back from the brink. you know, regardless of whatever role he played in getting them, to the brink, but he really did kind of pull things back from the brink and show that hip hop could be this, you know, commercial force. you know, that would be like a mainstream success sort of thing. And really pretty quickly, after all this went down, [00:30:39] Dan Runcie: If you go back to winter 96, the height of this beef, you have that infamous vibe cover with Tupac, Dr. Dre Snoop, and Suge Knight. They're there, the Beef and Bad Boy and, Biggie as well. Were on respective vibe covers as well. If you asked people, okay, five, 10 years from now, which of these two record labels will be in the stronger position, you probably would've put your money on Death Row. To be frank, they had the better artists just from like a roster perspective. With those four, the leadership seemed in many ways quite as strong and there were similarities there as well. You had these two relentless, large and life figures. Granted, Suge and Puff are very different in a lot of ways, but that's where you would've taken things. But then two years later, it's a completely different story. Death Row is imploding and bad Boy had the biggest year that any record label has ever had. If you look back at that 1997 to 1998 stretch, and this is after the death of the biggest rapper as well, they end up releasing Biggie's second album, Life After Death, ironically, 16 days after he passed away. And then Puff himself becomes this larger than life icon. He releases his own album, Puffy, P uff Daddy, the Family, No Way Out. And they continue to go on this run. And in many ways, as other heads and other figures in hip hop have faded and necessarily taken their own path, he continued to stay on that. It really is a remarkable journey when you look at each of those steps in it, because I probably would've put my money on Death Row if I didn't know better. [00:32:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, Yeah, I mean, it sure felt that way, right? I mean, but if you kinda, if you compare the leadership, if you compare Puffy to Suge, you know, I think that so much of, you know, the back and forth between Bad Boy and Death Row, you know, it was a case of like, these guys were playing a role, right? I mean, they were, it is funny in some of my reporting, people say like, both Puffy and Suge, especially Suge, were sort of, it was like they were acting in their own bad gangster movie. And I think the main difference was, you know, Suge really came to believe it and live it in a way, that Diddy, didn't quite do it you know, as we were saying before, Diddy kind of walked that line. but Suge just kind of got deeper and deeper into it, and that was kind of who he was, you know, all the time. So, you know, that there's not really like, kind of like a way to, back out, you know, to kind of come up for air when you, when you've kind of like gotten that deep into it like Suge did.  I think that was the main difference, you know? I mean, I think he became just completely, you know, is like possessed by this image that he created for himself. And he started to live it, you know, all the time and Diddy's ability to sort of walk the line and step back, you know, I think that's what ultimately kept Bad Boy in the position that, you know, that stayed and kept him in the position that he continued to be in. in [00:33:42] Dan Runcie: And everything that went down to that 1995 Source Awards is a perfect example about how they dealt with this whole thing. Suge and Death Row, famously win Best soundtrack for Above the Rim. He goes up, accepts the award, and he makes the infamous line. If you wanna sign with the label, you don't wanna have your executive producer all on the record, all on the video dancing come to Death Row, and then you see. Puff is there just looking, not saying anything, but everyone knows who he's talking about. But then later on the night Puff goes and is on the mic, he doesn't go necessarily take a shot back at Suge, but he just makes some type of more global statement, Hey, we're all in this together. I forget Puff's exact quote, but that's a perfect example of this, right? Of knowing that line cuz as we know, puff had a temper. Puff wasn't afraid to throw down in the moments, right? But he knew that in that stage, in that setting, especially even on his home turf, this was all the West Coast guys coming there because, you know, there was that famous scene of Snoop Dogg standing up being like, East Coast ain't got no love for Dr. Dre and Snoop. That's my horrible Snoop dog voice there. But Puff was cool, calm, collected during all of that, and as you put it, the difference behind the difference between the two of them is more than puff deciding to be all the video and should not be in, the video. The same way it was everything that you explained it more. And that is one of the biggest reasons, I think for that difference. And what helped Bad Boys essentially be even stronger, unfortunately. So after Big's death, [00:35:21] Zack Greenburg: yeah, totally. And you know, I think with Puff, he ultimately. He had that calm, cool, collected side to him that came out, you know, I think at, helpful points, but he was ultimately about, you know, protecting the bag, right? Like Diddy is a business, he is the business. And he, knows that he has to kind of keep that in mind. And I think, you know, Suge on the other hand just kind of like got too deep in his own narrative and couldn't kind of like poke his head up over the clouds and see the view from, you know, 35,000 feet or whatever. So, I think Diddy's business sense, you know, I think ultimately helped keep him, keep him, you know, just above the fray. So, still super remarkable when you look at it. He threw that first white party in 1998. That was really, that was what, like a year, a year after Biggie was killed. And, you know, just to give you an idea of the kind of stuff that was going down. I mean, he bought this house in East Hampton, and he decided that he was gonna throw the most exclusive party people just to give the background. I did some reporting on this too, but like, it apparently if you got invited to the white party and Puffy's White party, you could not get in If you wore like a cream suit, they'd throw you out. If you had, like a blue stripe on your white shirt, they would throw you out. So you had like grown men running home to get like an all white proper shirt to go to these parties. And you know, like pretty quickly you had Martha Stewart and Howard Stern and Donna Koran and like, Donald Trump used to go to these parties, you know, with his daughter everything. So, it was kind of like a who's who of like a certain type of celebrity in the late 90s. And to go from, you know, from the depths of the East coast, West coast thing to that, in like a year. I think it just shows how Puffy's able to kind of flip things around and that's what he was able to do with Bad Boy. He pivoted the whole narrative and suddenly it was about Puff Daddy, the family. It was about, you know, Godzilla soundtrack and, you know, doing the thing with an orchestra and Jimmy Page and whatever. And, you know, singing, he's able to like recreate himself and also these brands like Bad Boy that's created in his image. you know, like in a remarkably quick timeframe, I think. [00:37:38] Dan Runcie: And to share some numbers on this era. This is peak Bad Boy. I would say this whole 97 to 1999 stretch. 1999, they sold 130 million worth of records. And for some context there, that was more than Madonna's Maverick label had that year. And this was, or Madonna, during that whole Ray of Light era, if I'm remembering the timeline, and Beautiful Stranger, if I remember the timeline correctly and more than Def Jam had at its peak that year, and this was, we did the Def Jam pod recently. This was around the same time that Lyor was trying to get X and Jay-Z to release those albums in the same year, and Bad Boy was still doing its thing then they're Puff Daddy and the Family Tour. They went on their own arena tour, they made 15 million that year, and Puff was starting to extend himself in the same way that we saw other moguls do the same. We talked in the Roc-A-Fella episode about, this was the time that Dame Dash had started to have different partnerships in film and district and sports and things like that. We saw Master P as well in the late 90s get his hand involved with a number of things. And one of the things that stuck out from this era is that Sean, is that, did he actually made a partnership with Johnny Cochran at the time, who was his attorney during all of the drama that he had in the late 90s after that nightclub shooting. And they started a management business that was gonna be focused on NBA players. And this just gives you an idea of all of the things that he was interested at the time. So it really is remarkable. And a lot of it came because Diddy himself was putting himself out there. He became the brand, it was him putting it on, and he really became the most successful artist on this label. But around this time, if you start talking to some of the other artists on the label, they start to get a bit frustrated because they feel it's no longer about their development. It is now about Puff building and doing everything for himself. [00:39:36] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and I think that's when you know, he really starts to have all these brand extensions and, you know, you can see there's actually, I think the first Forbes cover on a hip hop artist was Puffy in 1999. And, it was a celebrity issue. And they had, Puffy and Jerry Seinfeld on the cover together, which always cracks me up. But, you know, Seinfeld's wearing this suit and Puffy's got this like Sean John denim t-shirt on. you know, just like a walking advertisement on the front of this magazine, which is just brilliant. And, you know, so he is got that going. He's like opening restaurants, you know, and like really kind of like realizing that, he could be not only the sort of the straw that stirs the drink and like the producer and whoever behind the scenes, but also the, you know, the main artist. And you know, I can imagine that being another artist on Bad Boy at this point, could start to get a little frustrating. [00:40:28] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think he had a quote around the time he wanted to be David Geffen. He wanted to be bigger than David Geffen. And of course this was Pete Geffen making moves with Dreamworks and everything else. Still being, in many ways, music's prominent mogul. That was due his thing there. And this was around the same time that we have another quote from, Andre Harrell. And I remember if you mentioned earlier, or if I mentioned earlier, there were some other quotes at the time that were less favorable than Diddy, than the ones that Harrell ended up having later. This was one of them. He said, and this was in a New York Times 1999 interview. He, Puff, gotta separate the young man thing from the business thing. If there's an incident where the situation is going in a way that he feels slighted or disrespected, the only way for him to handle it is as if he was a 45 year old IBM, CEO, which is a very interesting way. But he's essentially saying, Hey, you gotta change your act based on where you're going and where things are. And this is, that trending the line that we're talking about that I think that Diddy was eventually able to get to. But there was still some question marks about that and the trajectory in 1999. But to some extent, I think that kind of played to as factor. There was something about, especially some of those celebrities you mentioned, these are some more buttoned up, you know, white celebrities that never really did much on a, anything that was risky. So someone that has the image of Puff at that time, it's like, Ooh, I'm doing this risky thing. It's almost like the person in high school that wants to date the Bad Boy literally called his label bad voice. So they're leading into that whole persona, and I think it worked a bit to his advantage there as well. [00:42:07] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, totally. And you know, another thing people talk about, you know, I think that this time, and a lot of times I think there's a lot of jealousy going around and, you know, Puffy does this, puffy does that. But, know, one of the things that I, that I've always heard is that, Like, yeah, he's the last one at the club and you know, he's always out and, doing whatever, but he's also the, first one in, like, he outworks everybody and you know, he's somehow manages on, you know, like a couple hours of sleep at night or something. I mean, this is another thing you sometimes hear about fantastically successful people. I hear about this, about like Richard Branson and other people too, that they just can operate on four hours of sleep or something like that. And man, you know, I mean, if you think about it, if you have that much confidence and you're that brilliant, and then also you get an extra four hours a day, you know, you get another, was it, 28 hours a week, you get like an extra day every week basically to just like do shit. that's pretty hard to, contend with. I mean, like an extra day, like two extra waking days, to get things done. I mean, that, that's a pretty big advantage. [00:43:13] Dan Runcie: That was a whole 90s mentality from, overall, from people that were successful. Now that I'm thinking about it, cuz of course Richard Branson, that the 90s was a transformational decade for him. You are Bill Clinton, especially when he was president, talk about getting four or five hours of sleep at night, still being able to operate and do his thing. Even folks like Madeline Albright, who worked for him and in his cabinet were doing the same thing. And even someone like Kobe Bryant, there's that memorable. A piece of the Redeem Team documentary that came out on Netflix last year, where the younger guys at the time, LeBron, Bosh, Wade, were all going out to the club. Were all gonna go out for the night because that Olympics was in Beijing and they're coming back from the club and Kobe's on his way to the gym in the morning. And then Kobe spoke about this himself as well. He is like, no, I'm gonna do another practice to wake up earlier than everyone else. So you think about how this compounds over time, and that's what you're saying about how that essentially gives you two, three extra days a week. You do that time and time again, and just how much better you get. Granted the fact that those people can still do that while not requiring that much sleep. I know. I mean, I couldn't do that myself. I need those hours of sleep, but I commend those people that can. [00:44:25] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, and who knows, you know, from a health perspective, how it affects you, you know, sort of like later in life and whatever. And, you know, do you lose more years of your life on the tail end because you didn't sleep more earlier? I mean, I guess we'll never really know, and it's hard to kind of pull out the factors and really test that.  But in any case, you know, it does give a decided advantage, at least in the, present tense. And, he really kind of like worked with that. but you know, I mean, and then just when you thought that he was kind of out of the woods, with the specter of violence, you know, again, 1999, there's the whole thing in the club, a gun goes off, you know, there's this whole like, situation, Diddy and Shine are in the club. There's this dispute, whatever, and you know, who knows what really happened, but at the end of it, Shine went off to go to jail. And, you know, and Diddy ended up, you know, without really any kind of anything other than like, a little bit of reputational hit. So, I think that, you know, he continued to walk that line, right? And there were just these instances kept popping up. But once again, he always managed to sort of, you know, avoid any really serious repercussions and then, you know, go on to some even bigger and better commercial thing, shortly thereafter, you know, which he did eventually with Ciroc and, what have you. But, you know, it didn't really seem to hurt anything with Bad Boy. Although I think around that time, you know, his career as a solo artist started faltering a little bit to be sure [00:45:42] Dan Runcie: And I think this is a good time to talk about the proverbial Bad Boy curse that's been discussed. There are a number of artists that have had their issues with Bad Boys, specifically with Diddy in terms of whether they feel like they were fairly compensated for things. And it's artists like Faith Evans 112, Mark Curry, and the Locks as well as most recently as a couple years ago, Mase famously people that have publicly claimed to try to get what's theirs called out Diddy for not doing certain things. And then on the flip side, you have people that surrounded themselves with Diddy, and Diddy was the one that came out, scott free, and they were the ones that ended up in challenges and some of that Diddy benefited from by associating himself with them, but they didn't necessarily work outta that same way. You of course mentioned Shine, who, his career never really took off after he had that brief moment where that Bad Boy song came out. I think that was in 2000. They had sampled that, the Barrington Levee reggae song and then had him on that. But you had a few instances like that. I look back on one of my favorite songs from The Bad Boy era. let's Get It with G. Dep and Black Rob. And the sad part about that song is that you have G. Dep, the first person that was. Or essentially his lead single, he's saying that he's saying, or he did special delivery as well. G. Dep eventually ended up being locked up for a murder that he had done in the 90s, but then it had some run-ins after that Black Rob unfortunately passed away a few years ago, and I don't think was ever really able to capture that momentum after Whoa. And a few of the other songs he had with Bad Boy had come out. And then of course you had Diddy who, you know, is still thriving doing his thing. And I think that's true as well. You look at an artist like Lone who l kind of had his moment where they were trying to make lone really be a thing, especially with the, I need a girl, part one and part two, but then Loon as well, ends up getting locked up. I think there was a heroin charge or something like that. So all of these folks that were around Diddy in some way ended up having their challenges. Not all of them, but some of them. [00:47:50] Zack Greenburg: For sure. And I think, you know, probably around this time, you know, the sort of like the turn of the millennium was, you know, the moment, when did he kind of realize that he had to, he did have to start figuring out his next step. And if it wasn't gonna be him, as an artist, you know, and it wasn't gonna be somebody else on his roster, it was gonna have to be something else.  And so I think this is sort of like when you think about the Bad Boy era, you know, I don't know, I think about it as sort of like early 90s to late to, you know, to really the end of the decade. And although, you know, of course it went on and it continues to stay at different, you know, sort of capacities. It's like that was sort of the prime era. And, I think once the fortunes of the label became too closely intertwined with Diddy's as a solo artist, then when he stopped being such a big deal as a solo artist, the prospects of the of Bad Boy itself were a little bit more limited. [00:48:45] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Question for you. Do you think that, well, lemme take a step back. In the Cash Money episode that we talked about not just the disputes people have had with Birdman and Slim over the years, over disputes, but also the notorious reputation that they've built up. Do you feel like the reputation with Puff is similar in that way? And if it's different, why do you think so? [00:49:09] Zack Greenburg: So you mean Puff like the Cash Money sort of similarly having trouble paying people? [00:49:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, Yeah, and whether that reputation has stuck with Puff the same way that it's clearly stuck with Bert and Slim. [00:49:21] Zack Greenburg: I think they both have, you know, or rather the three of them, I think it does follow them around, but in different ways. I mean, I think, I think with cash money, there's some element of it that's like, well, you know, I think their response to a lot of it is this stuff began when, you know, the things weren't properly papered up and, you know, nobody really knew how these things worked and blah, blah, blah. And you know, you can sort of agree with that or not, right? Or maybe you could say it is to some extent your responsibility to make sure things are paid up, you know, once you become that successful. but, you know, I think that Puff was sort of like, you know, Bad Boy was, done through Clive through real estate. It was done through a major label, sort of from the beginning. And, you know, I think you could argue actually that that's why Cash Money was ultimately worth more, like, was like a bigger source of the Williams Brothers wealth than Bad Boy ever was, for Diddy. And he had to go, you know, do these other things.  But you know, like it wasn't as though there were no lawyers involved. It wasn't as though there wasn't some big record label apparatus. There absolutely was. And you know, so I, think that excuse sort of like, doesn't fly quite as much. it's probably not leveled quite as much with him either, but, you know, but it's definitely there and, it's sort of like, it's hard to look past it in some regards. [00:50:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think that one of the reasons why I think the public image of it is different is because of the businesses that the two are involved in. Bird man's a music man almost in the same way that Clive Davis is a music man. That's what we know him as even in the conversation you had shared last time where you were doing this extensive feature profile with them on Forbes and you were gonna have another follow-up conversation with him that night, and he's like, no, no. Bird Man's still in the studio. He's doing his thing like that's what he wants to do versus Puff has his interest in all these other areas, beverages, spirits, sports, entertainment, now with Revolt or Sean John, or whatever it is. So there's so many more things we know him as, or he's running the New York City marathon, he's trying to launch this thing, and all of those things can broaden your image of him. So if you hear a complaint about the one particular aspect of this business, that's one area of what he's doing, as opposed to us knowing Bird and Slim as. The owners of this record label, and now there's a dispute with the one thing that we know them for. [00:51:49] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Okay. I see what you mean. So it's sort of like, in a way it's less central like the music is less central to his identity, therefore we hear less about the disputes because we just hear less about the music side overall. [00:52:01] Dan Runcie: Right. [00:52:02] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, and then, when you look at what happened to Bad Boy, you know, even just from a corporate perspective, it was a 2005, he sold 50% of it to Warner for 30 million bucks, something like that. So, obviously that, means, you know, by those numbers it was worth 60 million. At the time there was probably just the recorded music side and there was publishing as well, which is separate. I think you did some other publishing deals too, but you know, that number in 2005, I mean, I'm sure that's lower than. Cash money was valued at in 2005. But, you know, he just kind of made the decision to pull some money off the table, right? And I think that says some, something about his priorities too, that he wasn't that focused on the music side of things. So, you know, like, let's make this deal and then move on, to the next thing. And I think a couple years after that was when he launched Ciroc or, you know, came on with Ciroc and launched his Ciroc campaign presence, whatever you wanna call it. you know, partnership thing. So, I think ultimately for Bad Boy, you know, I think it had a peak that was as high as really, you know, any label, in hip hop did. But its fortunes became so wrapped up with Puffy that once, once he moved away from music, it's like, how are you ever really gonna come back from that? [00:53:15] Dan Runcie: Right. It really wasn't a business it was a business, but almost in the same way that a lot of people that are creators now and trying to do things, there's this ongoing discussion or debate they have about whether are you trying to build a business with a roster around you, or is this more so a soul entity? And I think Bad Boy definitely saw both of those things, but you normally seen in the flip side where you start with the lead person being known as the thing, and then they add the roster around them. But Bad Boy was kind of the opposite, where you had this roster and then it becomes the lead person becoming more known for the thing. [00:53:48] Zack Greenburg: And I think it moved away from that assembly line idea, you know, the Motown thing, the Coachella thing, whatever, you know, you're gonna, buy the tickets for, you know, who's there. It just became all about Puff and, you know, I think in a way he realized it was more lucrative that way, right? N o matter how involved he was in however many different pro projects as sort of the, the Berry Gordy, he could make more, you know, for himself being Puff. And in a way, when you look at Ciroc, it's like, you know, it's the same thing, right? Like he's selling the Art of celebration.  He's selling his brand of success. He just doesn't have to sign other artists to it, you know? So I see has Ciroc Boys, you know, that's, I mean, it is almost like a record label to some extent, you know, if you like an extension of, Bad Boy. If you think about, you know, the different artists who are kind of like involved on some level, you know, over the years with that brand, it just, you don't have to get involved in like publishing and, you know, licensing and mechanical royalties and all of that fun stuff. [00:54:50] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think with that it's a good chance to talk about some of these categories we have here. So what do you think is the best signing that Bad Boy did? [00:54:59] Zack Greenburg: I think a hundred percent, you gotta go with Biggie, no doubt. I mean, you know, if you're calling the signing $500,000 to get him over from uptown, you know, plus whatever they ended up paying him. I mean, you think about the success of Life after Death and all the other albums and, you know, the albums that, were sort of in the hopper after he died. I mean, I think hard to top that. [00:55:19] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Yeah, No debates there. That was the same one. What do you think is the best business move to come from Bad Boy? [00:55:26] Zack Greenburg: I would, I would argue that, I would argue Sean John because, you know, in creating the Bad Boy image, that was, you know, really bankrolled like all those videos, obviously Bankrolled by Arista, bankrolled by, you know, the, parent company, you know, Puffy created this aura around himself, which was very fashion oriented. And then he was able to parlay that into creating, you know, an actual fashion brand that he owned, or at least, you know, partially owned and himself, which then generated hundreds of billions of dollars. And then he sold and got, you know, whatever it was, a hundred million dollars and he bought it back. but anyway, he did really well for himself. I think with the help of this shine that was kind of like given or enabled at least, by a Bad Boy. [00:56:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's a good one. The other thing that I wanna give some love to, that we haven't talked about much yet, but was the Bad Boy Street team and how they went about promoting and pushing their records all over the major cities. A lot of people may think that Bad Boy invented to the street team. I think I still do give loud of records credit for that, but Bad Boy did take things to another level, and this goes back to Puff and his strength as a promoter. This is what Club promoters do. This is how you push and get the word out there. So he's able to replicate himself. He's able to empower the people to feel like they're part of Bad Boy himself and making sure that they're styled in the same way, to be able to help sell that same image that Puff wants to sell himself. And you saw him replicate this as well with Ciroc Boys and things like that. And shout out to Sean Perez, who worked with Puff at Bad Boy and on Ciroc on this same strategy. [00:57:07] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Although, you know, it was a great one, and a great strategy, but it didn't always work. What's the line? I felt like Bad Boys Street team, I couldn't work. the locks. True. [00:57:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Usually worked. But yeah, they just needed to see the vision as they said. what's the best dark horse move? You have a good one for this. [00:57:27] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. maybe a little controversial. I don't know. I'm gonna go shine. Because if Paul hadn't signed Shine, I mean, I don't know, you know, I'm not a lawyer or anything, but, all I know is that something went down in that club and, Sean ended up doing, you know, like a decade and, Puff, you know, got away without any trouble. So, I think that worked out pretty well. But actually I think they're back friends also, Shine, you know, like converted to Judaism, moved to Israel, then he's like back in Belize where I think he was born and now he's like a member of parliament or something, and Puff has helped him with his campaign and there, so there's like pictures of them together and they've managed to patch things up. So, you know, I think that speaks to Puffy's gratitude for whatever, you know, whatever went on in the late 90s there, [00:58:10] Dan Runcie: so signing a fall, man. [00:58:12] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Well, well, whatever you wanna call it. I don't know. I don't know, and people forget that Shine was supposed to be the next Biggie. Like you know, he was sort of like the heir apparent [00:58:21] Dan Runcie: He had the voice, He had the vibe. you hear Bad Boys, that, I know I mentioned it earlier, but you hear that Bad Boy song in Beson Levy, you're like, oh, he has it. It's almost in that same way where there's people that have that grit that reminds you of that, like New York Grit sound, whether it's a, Chuck D or even when, I know people may laugh at this, but when Ja Rule first came out and they were hearing him on mixtapes, they thought he had that same sound too, and Shine had it. [00:58:45] Zack Greenburg: yeah, yeah. Absolutely mean DMX had that edge. So, yeah, I wondered what would've happened with Shine, you know, ultimately if things had kind of gone differently there. but you know, and I think Puff has expressed this, but he's kind of, he feels bad about the way things went down and he, he feels like, you know, that Shine ultimately got the short end of the stick and, you know, but they seem to have, you know, gotten over it at like even more than some artists have gotten over whatever, you know, royalty situation, that they don't agree with. So, you know, there's a dark horse candidate [00:59:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good one. The one I have is the original hip hop artist partnering on a fast food release, and that is of course the Big Mac. We go back to mid 90s, I think it was 93 or 94. They have the Big Mac meal, and that was part of the push to have Biggie be more present. And this is where you're already seeing how Puff is thinking about how to have his artist be part of that lifestyle. What are you trying to sell, what are you trying to integrate with? And then of course, we saw things blow up 25 years later with all of the meals, with the Travis Scott meal and the J Balvin deal and all of the things that McDonald's had done, especially in the beginning of the pandemic, you saw Burger King and others fall in line. And these have always happened in waves, but I always point back to that one as that was the original one. I'm necessarily know about the sales numbers, but if anything it sticks out more so as. That mentality. [01:00:12] Zack Greenburg: a really good I, I like Uh, certainly fits with everything that, that puff has been about, um, forward too. So [01:00:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. My missed opportunity for bad. Boy, we've alluded to this several times, but not being able to make things work to some degree. In the two thousands. I think that a lot of people talk about the demise of New York hip hop and how strong New York hip hop was in the 90s and what happened in the two thousands. And I think you still had strong artists in the two thousands. You clearly had the 50 cent beef. You clearly had Daisy and Nas. These are all things that happened in the two thousands and heat up, but there really was an opportunity to be able to see some of that continue. We saw that brief moment, I think it was in 2006, where Diddy releases press play. They signed Cassie and you start to see a little bit of this comeback. He then has another one in 2011, I believe, where he releases that song, I'm Coming Home and that becomes another [01:01:16] Zack Greenburg: that was a really fun song. I like that song a lot [01:01:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and that was a big hit. That was a big hit. And it's like, okay, you know, Diddy's over 40. Now he's still able to command himself on the radio, And granted, I don't think that Diddy necessarily tried to position himself as the best rapper himself like he wasn't Jay-Z necessarily. Where, okay, it makes sense for you to continue to be the brand, but if you know that you're not necessarily going to be known as that, how do you find ways to continue that? And I know that they tried to sign artists, and I know that's several of the artists I mentioned had had their struggles. But where was the opportunity to have a bit more time to nurture these artists and not just nurture 'em from a talent perspective? Cause I think many of them were clearly talented, even on the R&B side. I think about artists like Mario Winans and folks like that. But how do you find the way to really cultivate and build this as a unit the same way that others in New York were starting to do at the time? It's almost like when Bad Boys started to decline. You saw the rise of Roc-A-Fella, you saw the rise of Dipset, you saw the rise of all these other groups in New York that were doing their thing. [01:02:16] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think that's a great one for missed opportunity. I mean, I was gonna say the locks, you know, to go back to that line, Bad Boy Street team couldn't work the locks. But, you know, I love the locks. They were great and, you know, like, ah, how did you, you mess that one up? But, you know, if you kind of look at what the locks were about, and what Bad Boy had kind of evolved to be about, you know, this was sort of like post shiny suit era. Bad Boy had gotten away a little bit from what it was. In, you know, the early to mid 90s and it was like, maybe got a little too glitzy and so it was sort of at odds with where hip hop was at the time. And, you know, this was around when 50 cent was becoming really big and kind of taking things over. Things had gotten sort of like a little more aggressive again and, you know, like, a little more of that edge. But, you know, Puff had kind of like moved even beyond that to the point where, you know, I don't know that puffy in that era could have even been an artist on his own label and in the early to mid 90s, right? And whereas I think the Locks would've been a perfect fit in the early to mid 90s. It was just a little bit of an odd, you know, combination by that point, with what Bad Boy had kind of, you know, evolved into. so in a funny way, I would almost say like, they should have done a trade, they should have traded the locks for Camron or for Dipset. You know, I mean, I feel like Dipset, there's the Harlem connection, you know, like Come home with Me, had a little bit more of that Bad Boy kind of vibe to it. [01:03:52] Dan Runcie: definitely. [01:03:54] Zack Greenburg: yeah, yeah, [01:03:55] Dan Runcie: Oh boy. Especially with the samples as well [01:03:57] Zack Greenburg: Samples and, you know, whereas like the locks I think would've fit more in with what, Roc-A-Fella's doing at the time, you know, in state property and all that stuff. So, you know, like little fantasy baseball trade. I know it doesn't work like that in music, but, [01:04:12] Dan Runcie: I wish it did though. I wish it did. [01:04:15] Zack Greenburg: That could have been really fun, right? And I think we said last time that Cameron and D ipset said were sort of like a bit of a missed opportunity for Roc-A-Fella and, you know, I wonder if things had been flipped, if it would've turned out differently for both those acts. [01:04:28] Dan Runcie: Great example. I think that Bad Boy not being able to work the locks it in many ways reminds me of the The oklahoma City Thunder, not being able to figure out why they should keep James Harden. And then they trade James Harden for Kevin Martin and then James Harden goes on to beat this MVP candidate and it's like, oh shit, we had that. Well, I mean, you knew you had something, the guy was sixth man of the year. He played meaningful minutes in the finals, in 2012 when they played the heat at the time. But yeah, that's exactly what this was. And then he goes and does his own thing and it's like, oh shit. That's what we had. And you saw the same with Jada Kiss to some extent. Oh one, he releases Kiss the Game Goodbye and we gonna make it is one of the best hip hop tracks from that era. And it's like, oh, we had this all along granted. And I don't think that the locks, I mean the locks still were on plenty of Grammy award-winning singles and big splashy hits like the Honey Remix and stuff like that when they're on Bad Boy. But you were able to really see them get and. Live their own life and breathe in away. So, yeah. Oh man. The locks for Camron [01:05:34] Zack Greenburg: The locks were Dipset to make it even. Yeah. [01:05:37] Dan Runcie: That would've made that whole versus battle something completely different. [01:05:41] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So, I don't know, maybe it's not too late. maybe they can work that out. you call Puff. I'll call Jay. How about that? [01:05:49] Dan Runcie: I know. Let's do that. Let's do that [01:05:50] Zack Greenburg: Or you wanna flip it? I don't know. [01:05:54] Dan Runcie: Well, the one they keep talking about now is, well by they, not the actual people a verses, but Puff and, Jermaine Dupri himself, they keep talking about that one, trying to do a so-so death versus, Bad Boy versus, but we'll see if that one ever happens. I feel like that's kind of Puff doing the hype machine and just staying in the conversation. [01:06:12] Zack Greenburg: You know, I don't know. I think it would be more fun to see like, if you could get, you know, obviously you couldn't do Bad Boy Death Row with, Puff and Suge, but you could do what if you did it with like, Dre, you know, and Snoop, you know, and then you had Puff and somebody else. I don't know, but I don't think they would do it. It's like maybe a time that, you know, we don't wanna revisit it anymore, but yeah, we do hear, [01:06:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah. but no, there's definitely something there. But yeah, before we wrap things up, though, I know the answer to this one, but who do we think want the most out of Bad Boy? [01:06:41] Zack Greenburg: Oh, yeah. Puff, I [01:06:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, not even a question. I mean, maybe to his fault to some degree, but it's one of these things where I don't think it would've reached the same heights it did, especially in the late 90s if he wasn't front and center. But that was more of a short term money grab, in my opinion, just given the nature of it and not being able to really build a strong business. That said, he was able to build strong businesses off the back of what he did, and we all know how music is a platform to be able to build other businesses, just so shout out to him for doing that. But there was a world where you could have done all these things by having the right people around you. [01:07:16] Zack Greenburg: For sure. And you could also say, of course, like with Biggie, you know, biggie wasn't really breaking on Uptown, but he did break on Bad Boy because Puff knew how to market him. you know, certainly it all worked out very well for, Clive Davis. you know, I think that kept him relevant in a way that, you know, would not have been possible otherwise, perhaps for like an extra, you know, couple decades, in certain spheres anyway.  And, you know, still considered one of the great, record executives of all time. And I think, you know, Puff. Puff really helped burnish that legacy. So, you know, I mean, there were other people who won, but I think Puff, certainly won the most [01:07:52] Dan Runcie: Without a doubt. anything else before we wrap things up on Bad boy? [01:07:56] Zack Greenburg: Can't Stop Won't stop, right? What's he gonna do next? I don't know, you know, I mean, just when you think that you know, Bad Boy is like in, mostly in the rear view and it's, you know, legacy nostalgia thing, you know, he goes out and he does a Bad Boy reunion tour and he manages to pull in all these great people. I mean, I remember going to see him at the Barclays Center when they did that whole thing. And, you know, in addition to, to pulling, you know, most of that roster together, he just brought Jay-Z out, like surprise, you know, here you go. So, he has that ability to just pull all kinds of rabbits outta hats. you know, and, that could be Bad Boy related or not. [01:08:32] Dan Runcie: That show was a lot of fun. I saw it here. they had it at Oracle, Oakland. It was a lot of fun, waiting to see if they're gonna do a movie. You think Puff would sign off on that? [01:08:41] Zack Greenburg: Ooh. Yeah. You know, I mean, I think it depends, how it aligns with everything else, you know, is there like a Ciroc placement that could be had? you know, that kind of thing. I could see it. I could see it. [01:08:52] Dan Runcie: I could see it too. I know that there's this fine line where some of these movies, especially if the main person involved is a little bit too attached to the project, then there's certain things that are gonna be sanitized over and even a conversation like you and I had, a lot of the things that we discussed may not even make it there. And I know that there's a fine line with these things. I think that's Straight Outta Compton. Navigated that pretty well. And I think that's still my favorite hip hop biopic that we've seen done so far. Granted, people still felt that they glossed over Dr. Dre's controversies with women. And to be honest, I think that differ that movie would be received differently and maybe even have some different reviews, especially if it came out in a Post Me Too era. But it'll be interesting to see if they do something like that. I mean, Puff is always in the business of maximizing things. And I'd had Tarik Brooks, who's now president of Combs Global on the podcast, and it sounds like, wow, he probably wouldn't wanna sell any of his music, rights that he may own in the same way they could be interested in further multimedia. [01:09:56] Zack Greenburg: right. I mean, there was that biggie biopic that, you know, that may have already kind of gobbled up some of the, the part of the story that, you know, would, be involved in a Bad Boy. [01:10:05] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. Notorious, right? That came out in like 09' or so. [01:10:09] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, gosh, I can't believe it's that long ago already, but, you never know. It's already been, gosh, almost 15 years, [01:10:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's like how many Whitney Houston Biopics have we had, right? I think there was at least two of 'em. And then you had this bigger one come out last year, so you never know. [01:10:23] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sponsored by Ciroc. [01:10:26] Dan Runcie: Sponsored by Ciroc that this podcast is not, No, just to clarify. No free ads here, but No. [01:10:34] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, [01:10:36] Dan Runcie: But Zach, thanks for joining. Pleasure as always, man. [01:10:39] Zack Greenburg: As always, Dan, thanks for having me. We can’t tell the story of hip-hop without mentioning Diddy and the record label he started. Bad Boy took off in 1993 after Puff was fired from Uptown Records. He brought TheNotorious B.I.G. with him from Uptown Record, and signed a 50-50 deal with Clive Davis’s Arista Records, and it was off to the races.


Bad Boy survived the tragic fallout of the East Coast vs. West Coast rivalry, and reached even bigger heights after Biggie’s death. Puff began to rise as a solo artist, but did the rest of the artists suffer as a result?


Friend of the pod, Zack O’Malley Greenburg, joins me on this episode to cover 30 years of Bad Boy Entertainment. Here’s what we hit on:


0:35 Sean Combs come-up story

5:16 Diddy breaks in with Uptown Records

8:22 Starting Bad Boy Records

14:11 What sets Diddy apart

21:04 How Diddy controlled the narrative

23:58 Bad Boy’s formula for success 

29:00 East Coast vs. West Coast rivalry

30:39 Bad Boy’s historic 1997-98 run

45:42 Bad Boy curse?

48:44 Diddy’s reputation compared to Cash Money

54:50 Best signing? 

55:19 Best business move?

57:19 Best dark horse move?

1:00:19 Missed opportunity?

1:08:52 Possibility of biopic?


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog

This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm

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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Zack Greenburg: Diddy's ability to sort of walk the line and step back, you know, I think that's what ultimately kept Bad Boy in the position that, you know, that stayed and kept him in the position that he continued to be in.

[00:00:09] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:35] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is another case study style breakdown, and this time we chose to dive deep on the one, the only Bad Boy Entertainment when it comes to branding and when it comes to marketing. I don't know if there's another record label that has as identifiable as a sound of vibe as bad Boy, you knew what that vibe was.

Puff said it himself, they take hits from the eighties, but do it sound so crazy? And that was the formula, and it worked time and time again. What Puff did was smart, it was a modern approach to how Berry Gordy approached the record business with Motown. But then he put his own spin on it, interning with Andre Harrell at Uptown Records, learning from him and then putting his own spin on it even more, making it relevant for the 90s and truly becoming the icon that was synonymous with shiny suits with that Bad Boy flavor.

And so much of the success of one of the best MCs ever, the Notorious BIG, some of the most iconic R&B groups at the time, and singers such as Faith Evans, 112 and many more. And plenty of artists that unfortunately also had plenty of challenges and issues when it came to payment, drama, legal disputes and more.

And we dive into all of that. I'm joined again by Zack O'Malley Greenburg. He wrote a book called Three Kings, where he dived deep into Diddy, as well as Dr. Dre and Jay-Z in this book, so he's well-versed and shared a bunch of great stories in this one. So let's dive in, really excited for this one. Hope you enjoy it.

[00:02:06] Dan Runcie: We are back to talk about the wondrous world that Sean Combs built himself Bad Boy entertainment and joined by the one and only Zach Greenburg. Welcome back

[00:02:15] Zack Greenburg: Oh, thanks for having me, Dan.

[00:02:17] Dan Runcie: Bad Boy is so fascinating because Puff is someone who has in many ways been this larger than life character even before people knew him externally as that.

And he has really stayed true with that throughout his time in hip hop and even before then. And most people know the origin story starting back in his days at Howard. But I think based on the research you've done, I know you have some backstory with some of the lessons and some of the things he did even before that.

So walk us back. Who was puff in the early days before the world? Got to know him.

[00:02:52] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think the funny part is that, that puffy was always puffy and, you know, it just took a while for a little while for the world to kind of figure it out. But you know, there are these kind of consistent themes when you go back through his youth and you, kind of get a sense of who he was.

And, you know, I remember writing my book Three Kings, you know, Diddy being one of these kings, talking to people who grew up around him. He really was that same guy from the very beginning. So even when he was a kid, you know, he spent his very earliest years in Harlem, but then moved to Mount Vernon, kind of a suburban neighborhood.

you know, just north of the city limits. And you know, he had not just one paper route, he had multiple paper routes and on every, you know, every route. He had this philosophy of like, he wasn't just gonna take the paper and fling it into the family's yard. He was gonna get up and he was gonna go, you know, open the screen door and put the paper in between the screen door and the main door so that people didn't have to go up and do so like he was, you know, that dedicated, that hardworking from the very beginning. you know, I think another story I learned from his youth, Puffy was like, there was some, Some debate, you know, some kid had a pool party and, Puffy wasn't invited. there may have been some racism at play, we don't know. But anyway, Puffy's solution was to convince his mom to build a pool in their backyard and then start his own pool parties and, you know, I mean, it's like the most puffy move ever, right? So he just ended up finding, you know, wealthier and wealthier backers to build the proverbial pool as the years went on.

[00:04:23] Dan Runcie: That is the perfect story to encapsulate him because I feel like I could imagine other people having white parties. He doesn't get invited to the white party, so he's like, all right, bet I'm gonna go start my own white party. And now it's this annual thing, however many years running.

[00:04:37] Zack Greenburg: Exactly. I mean, and you know, you know, as you kind of trace his evolution, you know, in between it was the same thing. So, you know, we all know the Howard Days, he was taking the Amtrak up, sometimes hiding in the bathroom, so they didn't have to pay for the tickets. He didn't have any money but, you know, he would go up back up to New York on the weekends, he would plan these parties.

He started to build a name for himself. and it was exactly that, you know, so from the pool parties, in Mount Vernon to the parties that he was throwing, you know, his colleges to the White party, you get that through line of Puffy that, you know, kind of continues all the way through, through the Ciroc era, you know, I think, which really makes this sort of art celebration, ethos, you know, all the more credible, right.

[00:05:16] Dan Runcie: Right, and you mentioning him taking Amtrak. Of course, that's him going from DC to New York to go to Uptown Records where he pushes and fights to get his unpaid internship. Working with Andre Harrell, who was on the Ascension himself. He had started that record label in the mid to late eighties. He then sees the rise.

He's early on, new Jack Swing has so many of the early folks making that sound there. And then Puff comes in, he sees a opportunity to elevate and position that brand because the whole thing that Uptown was about, they were trying to push Ghetto Fabulous. They wanted to show that there was a opportunity for people who grew up with nothing to feel like they had that release.

And Andre Harrell, he since passed away a few years ago, but he spoken about this a few times and you can see how Puff at the time adapted a lot of that. He worked with Jodeci. He was so integral with how he styled them and making sure they had the right jackets. And at the time, Jodeci was very much seen as this alternative to Boys to Men, Boys to Men was a bit more buttoned up.

They made music that was G-rated that you could play everywhere. And Jodeci definitely leaned into the sex appeal, which is something that we saw continue play through with. Bad Boy records of Bad Boy Entertainment in the future. He did similar with Mary J. Blige, taking her from just being a R&B singer to giving her more of a hip hop Ben, and doing a bit more of that crossover vibe, which is something that we saw again with Bad Boy too.

And as Puff continued to show his influence, things started to clash because the intern then becomes VP of A and R, and that VP in A and R starts to butt heads and really challenge Andre Harrell on a number of things.

[00:07:06] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And, you know, I think, you know, like you said, Puff really had an idea of what Uptown could be that was, you know, a little bit different from Andre. But it really worked, right? It was the idea that it was, it had a little bit more of an edge to it. you know, like Jodeci had a little more edge than boys to men.

you know, that every artist that was gonna be out on Bad Boy would have like, you know, would have that level of class, but also would have kind of like, you know, kind of like a street smart edge. And so, right, it was like the Tims and the backwards hat, but, you know, maybe you had like a nice jacket.

It was that kind of mix. And it was very much like in line with Puffy himself. and I think, you know, it's a theme that you kind of started to see. as kind of, he moved on, you know, whether it was Bad Boy or Roc or whatever it was, the thing was synonymous with Puffy. Puffy was synonymous with the thing. But as he began to later on build these assets, you know, he could sell the businesses in a way that he couldn't sort of sell his own image and likeness necessarily. So, that started with, Uptown for sure, it was Andre's thing, but it started to feel like it was Puffy's thing.

And I think there was some thought that, you know, that there sort of couldn't be two kings in the castle. And Andre eventually pushed him out and, you know, that kind of left it, the Diddy, you know, in his early twenties kind of figuring out like, Hey, you know, what am I gonna do next?

 How am I gonna really start my own thing here?

[00:08:22] Dan Runcie: And I have this quote from Andre. This was from a documentary a few years later. He says, when Puff got fired, he was on payroll and his artists were on payroll. He's still recording his artists, but he was able to find the best deal, so we never fired him to hurt him. But he fired him to basically make him rich.

I will say that quote is much nicer than certain things that Andre said immediately after that firing, especially in the 90s. But it was cool to see the two of them find opportunities to continue to work together after that. But I think the key thing from his time in Uptown is that he was able to find and work with art is that eventually he started working with on Bad Boy.

That's when he first works and discovers Big. That's when he first works and really begins to hone in on that sound. And then he officially launched Bad Boy in 1991, but it really wasn't until 1993. He starts working with Big, he starts working with Craig Mack and then it all leads up to this deal that he ends up signing with Arista records to officially do this joint venture with Arista.

Arista, of course, was run by Clive Owen, legendary music executive, and they do their 50 50 split. And as the story goes, Clive was on the fence. At first he wanted to hear more, but then Puff Plays flavor in your ear. Craig Max first single, and he was like, all right, I need to be part of this, whatever it is.

So that was the song that took things off and made it happen.

[00:09:50] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, Clive Davis, of course, you know, legendary, record men, you know, discovered Janice Joplin, Whitney Houston, Puffy, like you could say, he discovered all these people. they were, they were kind of there already, and, I sort of suspect they would've had their success even if it were not for Clive Davis.

But, you know, that, we could debate that. But, know, Clive Davis certainly had an eye for talent, one way or the other. So, I mean, I think what's really fascinating too is, you know, you got think where Puffy was at that point in his life before he got that deal. He was shopping Bad Boy around right?

To a bunch of different labels and it says so much about him and his whole ethos, the way he approached it, and this was another anecdote that I found in my reporting, by one of the founders of The Fader who happened to work at EMI at the time. He was in the room when Puffy brought the Bad Boy deal, to the folks at e Emmi and, you know, so like, just to refresh, here's Puff early twenties, just been fired.

Just had his first kid, I think. And also, you know, he'd been a part of, this charity basketball tournament at City College where a bunch of people got, crushed in a stampede. He was ultimately found, you know, not guilty of any kind of criminal charges or anything, but his name was all over the papers.

Like there's a lot of negative press around him. He was kind of, you know, almost radioactive at this point, or at least one might have thought that turned out he wasn't. But, so anyway, he goes into this meeting with e Emmi and, you know, Their big thing was, Vanilla Ice. And he sort of goes into this meeting and he's like, that dude's corny.

Like, I have no interest in anything having to do with Vanilla Ice. Let me tell you how to run your business. And, you know, so he proceeds to like, give them this vision. And then at the end of it, I mean, and I'll read the quote cause it's just so good. he says, when you guys get in a room with all them suits and you're gonna decide what you're gonna pay Puff, just when you get to a number that you think is gonna make Puff happy, I love how he was referring to himself the third person, right?

He says, get crazy on top of that. And then when you're there, I want whipped cream and a cherry on top. and this is the best part, he goes, I don't even want to think about the money. That shouldn't even be an issue. Don't be coming at me with no n-word money. Goodbye. And like that was vintage puff.

Like that was billionaire Puffy. Before he was billionaire, before he even had. Like before we had a company. So, you know, I think there's just such a great lesson in there, which is kind of like, you know, the sort of, if you can pull off the, fake it till you make it, if you can have that kind of swagger. And to be fair, not available to everybody and like, you know, don't try this at home, kind of if you don't have it.

But man, if you can pull that off, if you have that kind of confidence in yourself, you can accomplish some pretty incredible things. He didn't even, you know, end up going with EMI but I think he made a similar pitch at Arista and, you know, and that ultimately got him the deal, that created Bad Boy and, you know, that was really the engine for so much of, what he ended up achieving as the years went on.

[00:12:46] Dan Runcie: That story is one of the reasons why he has lived on to become meed and in many ways become a bit of a gift himself. Whether you look at the Chappelle Show skit where, Dave Chappelle is making fun of making the band, and he has that whole sketch about, I want you to get me some Cambodian milk from a goat, or whatever it is.

And it's something that sounds completely absurd, but one, it sounded like a lot of the shit that he would say in that MTV show make in the band. And it sounds exactly like that quote that you just shared from that story. The difference is he did this, whether it was for pure entertainment on a show like making the band or when there was really things at stake, like he was at this point when there wasn't a deal in place, he was recently fired.

But regardless of whether he's up or down, trying to get it still the same guy.

[00:13:39] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. You know, and I think it just kind of goes to the point like, did he creates brands. He is the brand. He imbued the brand with his essence. And then the brand becomes that much more valuable, whether it's a brand that he can sell, you know, for some huge gain, or whether it's a brand that is compensating him, you know, handsomely for his association or in some cases both.

 That's kind of the formula and, you know, not everybody can pull it off because not everybody has a brand that is that clear.

[00:14:11] Dan Runcie: And let's dig into this because I think this is one of the things that does set him apart. Denny used to be a club promoter as well. And this is a persona that we've seen oftentimes in music where the club promoter or the party promoter works their way up to then become the executive. You see it now with Scooter Braun, someone who's a billionaire now, or close to it in his own right.

And he was a party promoter in Atlanta. You saw with Desiree Perez who now runs Roc Nation. She was a party and a club promoter before as well. And you've seen it plenty of times before and I think there's a few things there. There's a hustle and a relentlessness that you need to have to make that work.

You need to create momentum around some of that isn't there. You need to understand and be tapped into what people want to hear and what people wanna do and how people wanna feel entertained and how they wanna leave from something feeling like, damn, I had a good time. We need to go do that again. And that is a lifestyle and what Puff did was aligned himself by building businesses that allowed him to do that. Some of those businesses worked better than others, but I think that is the key through line there. On the flip side, I do think that some of these operators and business leaders can often struggle with the bigger picture because there's so many more elements to building companies outside of the marketing brand promotion and those things, and I think we can get into some of that here because I think we saw some of those dynamics play out with Bad Boy as well.

[00:15:39] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And you know, I mean, I think one of the things about Bad Boy is it wasn't like this was the first record label to develop an ethos and kind of build a lifestyle around it. And, almost like, assembly line, right? I mean, Puffy was doing that himself at Uptown before he just took that same idea and, Pufified it even more.

But, you know, I would kind of almost liken it to Motown. I mean, if you look at, Berry Gordy's role, I mean, you see Berry Gordy, credited as a producer on so many, of those songs and, you know, he wasn't like the only person in the room, producing right? he was putting together the right songwriters, the right musicians, everybody to be in the same place. And he was tying it all together with this kind of Motown ethos. And when, you know, when you had a Motown record coming out, you knew what it was. And I think that's why people in the old days used to be fan people would be fans of like, specific labels, right? They're like, I like the stuff that this label puts out, you know, I trust them. It's almost like, you know, I don't know, you know, Coachella sells out, even before the artists are announced because you know what you're gonna get if you like Coachella and you just trust that that's what's gonna happen. That's what it was like, Motown, that's what it's like with Bad Boy.

So I think Diddy really followed that model that he was going to be the person, you know, sort of putting things together, you know, maybe he was going to, do a guest verse here and there. Maybe he was gonna be more involved in the production of this play of this song or another song. but it was really more in the vision and the ethos of the brand, the Bad Boy brand, what that looked like, what success looked like, you know, the Diddy version of success looked like maybe a little different from the Uptown Andre Herrell version. And, you know, it was like, like a little more swagger, like, you know, like a little more edge to it. And he was really able to kind of like, make that tangible. So, you know, I would keep going back to that as like something that sets him apart, you know, following the footsteps of the likes of Berry Gordy and

[00:17:34] Dan Runcie: The Motown example is good because they also were able to maximize the most from the broader roster they had from the hits that they had Berry Gordy, of course, was famous for one artist on his record, has a huge deal. Okay, we're gonna get another artist on that record on that label to then do it again.

You saw that with Aint' No Mountain High Enough. Marvin Gaye has his version that goes through the roof. Okay, let's get Diana Ross to do her own version, her own spin on it. That becomes a song in its own right. And you saw, did he do this to some extent with remixes? How one artist had the remix that worked out well.

Okay, or one artist had the original song that worked out well, okay, let's get the remix now. Let's get the whole Bad Boy crew on this remix to go do their own verse and do this thing. They did that time and time again, and then in the early two thousands he had that album. We invented the remix, and there's plenty of debate on whether or not they actually did invent the remix, but that remix that they did of Flava in Ya Ear with, Craig Mack, and they had Biggie on that one as well. That is one of the more classic iconic remixes that people do go back to. And I think the other way that they're , similar too is some of the disputes that artists have had about pavements and things like that, which we can get into eventually.

But that's always been the model. I think there in many ways, you're right, it's more like Motown than it is like uptown.

[00:18:58] Zack Greenburg: for sure. And you know, on the Biggie point, I mean, people forget sometimes, but Biggie was originally signed to Uptown and Puffy had to go and get him back, and I think they were able to negotiate his release or his transfer of his deal from Uptown to Bad Boy for something like half a million dollars, which, you know, turned out to be, a pretty good deal all the way around.

So, you know, he knew that sometimes he would have to shell out and, you know, he did from time to time. That certainly didn't stop there from being disputes, as time went on. But, you know, I think one of the other fascinating things is sort of this interplay, you know, he really walked this line, of sort of like, you know, the corner in the corner office, right?

you know, the boardroom, and the street, and, he played up this sort of like lineage that he had of the Harlem gangster world like his dad, Melvin was an associate of Frank Lucas from, you know, the subject of American gangster. And you know, like his dad was known in Harlem. I think they called him, pretty Melvin.

Like he was very flashy, you know, he always had the best suits and, you know, and all that kind of thing. But, you know, he definitely came from that sort of like grand gangster era. you know, Frank Lucas and Nick Barnes and all those guys. I mean, that was sort of Puffs lineage.

And he definitely played up and he certainly played up, you know, sort of different sort of, street edge, you know, when things got heated in the Bad Boy Death Row situation. But at the same time, he never really wanted to go too deep into it.

And I talked to somebody who sort of grew up around him, and he called him Jimmy Clean Hands, you know, because he didn't really want to get like, like he used the association. When it was sort of convenient, but also he didn't want to get too deeply associated, with that side of things.

So, to me it's, a really fascinating tightrope walk, how he pulled it off. And, if he'd gone further, toward that side of things, I don't think that would've ended well for him. And if he hadn't gone quite as far as he might not have had, you know, a certain credibility or an edge that, you know, that contributed to so much of the success of Bad Boy, especially in those days.

[00:21:04] Dan Runcie: And he did it at a time in the 90s when it was easier for hip hop stars to be able to control the narrative and push what they wanna push and not have other things cover or not have other things be uncovered, or all these internet rabbit holes. I could imagine him trying to do this 10, 15 years later, and it could be a situation like Rick Ross where all of a sudden there's photos of you as a correctional officer popping up on the internet and people are like, bro, what the hell's going on here?

I thought every day you were hustling. I could have seen something like that happening the same way that Diddy, but by the time that plenty of people have had those debates about, oh, well, you know, Diddy was actually a kid that grew up in the suburbs and went to college and X, Y, Z, and there's plenty of ways that you could flip that story, but by the time that even became a discussion point, at least in circles where I heard him growing up, he was already an established star.

So there was really nothing else that you could do at that point.

[00:21:58] Zack Greenburg: yeah. And I guess he could walk that line because he really did kind of embody both, right? Like he was the son of a, you know, a Harlem gangster. he was born in Harlem. His dad was killed, you know, on I think Central Park West and 108th Street or something, you know, in a dispute a case of I think mistaken identity.

I mean, so there were real, you know, tough things that, he was born into. And at the same time, he was also, you know, like the college dropout. Like you know, he went to school, he did his thing like, you know, you could say he was like a proto backpack rapper in some ways, like if you wanted to spin it that way.

And he kind of embodied both of these worlds, but I think that really, if he hadn't actually lived both those lives, it would've been harder to sort of embody them simultaneously as he did.

[00:22:47] Dan Runcie: And even in him, in his own right, there were many incidents that he had that people felt could have supported this narrative that he wanted to, for better or worse, whether it was the 1990 Club nightclub, the 1999 nightclub shooting after the Nas Hate Me Now Music video, him and his team going into Steve Stout's office and then, you know, assaulting him.

And then everything that came up after that, or even as recently as within the past 10 years, the incident at UCLA with the coach yelling at his son. There's been plenty of things that have came up that show, you know, that the relentless, the temperament that could often work against his advantage as well.

[00:23:26] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, you know, didn't he bash Steve Stout over the head with a champagne bottle or something? I mean, you know, but what's that line? We back friends like Puffy and Steve Stout, you know, like it, 50 cent had that line. I think he has a remarkable ability to, you know, to end up being sort of friendly with, people who he had these disputes with in the past.

So, you know, whether, Steve Stout or, Shine or whoever, like, he finds, various ways to, sort of bridge divides in the end. I don't know how it turned out with the coach from, was it UCLA, or USC. But I suspect that's fine too. but yeah, he does find a way of patching things up.

[00:23:59] Dan Runcie: No, he definitely has and we could talk a little bit more about some of the disputes that came with some of the artists, but I do wanna talk a bit about the business of Bad Boy itself and how it went about things. And one of the things that we saw from successful record labels, of course, Zach and I have done past conversations on Cash money, and Roc-A-Fella, and they'll always find innovative ways to work within their constraints or find ways to make things work even when you don't have all of the resources in the world.

And one of the things that Bad Boy did was they really leaned into sampling and sampling hits from the eighties and making them the most successful things they could be. What's that line from that May song Making, taking hits from the eighties make 'em sound

so Make it sound so crazy. Yeah.

so they have their in-house production as well with hit men who then do most of the production, and they give you that Bad Boy sound that you can identify when you hear it immediately on a song, whether it's a total song or it's a one 12 song.

And they were able to do that and that formula worked so well because you had this generation that grew up listening to those songs because their parents heard all those songs as well. These are black music classics and then they were able to repurpose them and because of the time and things weren't quite as oversaturated, it sounded quite authentic in a way where I think even some samples now can feel almost a bit forced because you can be like, okay, they're really trying to work that artist.

And who knows? I might be also looking at this now, someone in my thirties as opposed to in the 90s, looking at it as someone that's growing up experiencing this. But still, I do think that there was a bit of like a authenticity and a vibe that they were able to create with each of those sample tracks.

And plenty people tried to do it. Of course they didn't invent it. I know that Death Row and NWA, Dr. Dre had done it successfully before Diddy, but Diddy and Bad Boy were definitely able to put their own unique spin on making that as effective as it was.

[00:25:57] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, I mean, I think to your point, but it, like it really opened up this sort of aspect of mainstream hip hop when, you know, maybe there were some radio stations that weren't gonna play some of these songs, but, you know, like a puffy song or a biggie song ordinarily, but, you know, if you have like, Oh, that's David Bowie in the background.

Like I'm familiar with this. then, you might be sort of like more inclined to put it on the radio if you were a certain kind of dj, which then might reach a certain kind of listener who didn't, you know, ordinarily listen in hip hop and, you know, and you kind of have this, kind of snowball effect.

you know, sure.

[00:26:32] Dan Runcie: And then from a personal perspective, I'll be the first to admit the amount of songs that I had heard the first time as Bad Boy Version. And then growing up, you then later hear the original one that they sampled from the eighties or seventies, whatever Disco tracker, soul Tracker was, and you're like, oh, that's what that song was from.

It's happened endless times and it continues to still happen.

[00:26:54] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I must confess, I heard I'll be missing you before, I heard I'll be watching you, so, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. you know, so yeah, and I think a lot of that narrative around the sort of peak Bad Boy sampling era, you know, I think it gets unfairly criticized as sort of being uncreative and like, you know, essentially just being cover and, not adding much to it.

But, I disagree entirely, and I think that in addition to creating a different song with a different vibe and everything, you know, th those songs did introduce a whole generation of people, to eighties music that, you know, they may not have been alive to have heard, you know, from, you know, let's say I was born 85, some of these songs came out before I was born.

So, yeah, I think that does get missed sometimes.

[00:27:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I'm in the same boat. I knew Juicy before. I knew the original Juicy Fruit. I knew Mase Bad Boy before I knew Hollywood Swinging, and I could go on and on with all the songs that they were able to help in introduce and connect the dots there. Another thing that I think Bad Boy did at this time that was a continuation of Uptown was how intentional and borderline maniacal Puff was about continuing that image.

So, they had the Can't Stop Boat Stop documentary that came out a couple years ago. And the artist from one 12, which was the main male R&B group that Puff had signed to the record label at the time, they said that they were styled, dressed and personified to be an image of Puff themselves, to essentially be Puff as R&B singers, which was really interesting.

And then on the more controversial side, which I don't think would ever fly in the same way today, Faith Evans, who was married to Biggie at the time, she was sent by Puff to go to tanning salons cuz she a light-skinned black woman. They sent her to tanning salons so that her skin can be darker because he wanted to be able to sell her as a certain image that would never fly again the same way today.

But that's how Puff was. He was so maniacal, even things down to the nail color and things like that for women. He wanted to make sure that people looked a certain way.

[00:29:01] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and I think what's, you know, especially interesting when you, kind of zoom back on the 90s and that, that era of Bad Boys, you know, given the level of control he had over, you know, that level of detail, you know, the whole east coast, west coast thing, the whole Bad Boy Death Row thing obviously got way out of control.

and, you know, culminating in, the desert of big and pop and you know, obviously we don't know exactly who was behind each of those things, but it's, you know, still kind of debate to this day. But, the fact is that, you know, got kind of wrapped up in this kind of, know, sort of thing, like the fact that Puffy could bring Bad Boy back from that, and kind of like continue to have the same brand, you know, after everything that went down, you know, I think is another testament to like the identity of the brand, right? I mean, you know, cuz I remember in that period of time hip hop was really under fire from, you know, so, you know, like the Tipper Gores of the world and the parental advisories and all that, and there was this narrative of like, oh, this music is dangerous.

And there was a whole period of time, you know, after everything that went down, in the mid to late 90s, like there were questions like, is hip hop? You know, really a viable commercial genre? Are brands really gonna want to be attached to this? you know, because of the violence that happened, you know, really publicly there.

And I think, you know, whether you love him or hate him, like, I think he deserves some credit for pulling things back from the brink. you know, regardless of whatever role he played in getting them, to the brink, but he really did kind of pull things back from the brink and show that hip hop could be this, you know, commercial force.

you know, that would be like a mainstream success sort of thing. And really pretty quickly, after all this went down,

[00:30:39] Dan Runcie: If you go back to winter 96, the height of this beef, you have that infamous vibe cover with Tupac, Dr. Dre Snoop, and Suge Knight. They're there, the Beef and Bad Boy and, Biggie as well. Were on respective vibe covers as well. If you asked people, okay, five, 10 years from now, which of these two record labels will be in the stronger position, you probably would've put your money on Death Row.

To be frank, they had the better artists just from like a roster perspective. With those four, the leadership seemed in many ways quite as strong and there were similarities there as well. You had these two relentless, large and life figures. Granted, Suge and Puff are very different in a lot of ways, but that's where you would've taken things.

But then two years later, it's a completely different story. Death Row is imploding and bad Boy had the biggest year that any record label has ever had. If you look back at that 1997 to 1998 stretch, and this is after the death of the biggest rapper as well, they end up releasing Biggie's second album, Life After Death, ironically, 16 days after he passed away.

And then Puff himself becomes this larger than life icon. He releases his own album, Puffy, P uff Daddy, the Family, No Way Out. And they continue to go on this run. And in many ways, as other heads and other figures in hip hop have faded and necessarily taken their own path, he continued to stay on that.

It really is a remarkable journey when you look at each of those steps in it, because I probably would've put my money on Death Row if I didn't know better.

[00:32:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, Yeah, I mean, it sure felt that way, right? I mean, but if you kinda, if you compare the leadership, if you compare Puffy to Suge, you know, I think that so much of, you know, the back and forth between Bad Boy and Death Row, you know, it was a case of like, these guys were playing a role, right?

I mean, they were, it is funny in some of my reporting, people say like, both Puffy and Suge, especially Suge, were sort of, it was like they were acting in their own bad gangster movie. And I think the main difference was, you know, Suge really came to believe it and live it in a way, that Diddy, didn't quite do it you know, as we were saying before, Diddy kind of walked that line.

but Suge just kind of got deeper and deeper into it, and that was kind of who he was, you know, all the time. So, you know, that there's not really like, kind of like a way to, back out, you know, to kind of come up for air when you, when you've kind of like gotten that deep into it like Suge did.

 I think that was the main difference, you know? I mean, I think he became just completely, you know, is like possessed by this image that he created for himself. And he started to live it, you know, all the time and Diddy's ability to sort of walk the line and step back, you know, I think that's what ultimately kept Bad Boy in the position that, you know, that stayed and kept him in the position that he continued to be in.

in

[00:33:42] Dan Runcie: And everything that went down to that 1995 Source Awards is a perfect example about how they dealt with this whole thing. Suge and Death Row, famously win Best soundtrack for Above the Rim. He goes up, accepts the award, and he makes the infamous line. If you wanna sign with the label, you don't wanna have your executive producer all on the record, all on the video dancing come to Death Row, and then you see.

Puff is there just looking, not saying anything, but everyone knows who he's talking about. But then later on the night Puff goes and is on the mic, he doesn't go necessarily take a shot back at Suge, but he just makes some type of more global statement, Hey, we're all in this together. I forget Puff's exact quote, but that's a perfect example of this, right?

Of knowing that line cuz as we know, puff had a temper. Puff wasn't afraid to throw down in the moments, right? But he knew that in that stage, in that setting, especially even on his home turf, this was all the West Coast guys coming there because, you know, there was that famous scene of Snoop Dogg standing up being like, East Coast ain't got no love for Dr. Dre and Snoop.

That's my horrible Snoop dog voice there. But Puff was cool, calm, collected during all of that, and as you put it, the difference behind the difference between the two of them is more than puff deciding to be all the video and should not be in, the video. The same way it was everything that you explained it more.

And that is one of the biggest reasons, I think for that difference. And what helped Bad Boys essentially be even stronger, unfortunately. So after Big's death,

[00:35:21] Zack Greenburg: yeah, totally. And you know, I think with Puff, he ultimately. He had that calm, cool, collected side to him that came out, you know, I think at, helpful points, but he was ultimately about, you know, protecting the bag, right? Like Diddy is a business, he is the business. And he, knows that he has to kind of keep that in mind.

And I think, you know, Suge on the other hand just kind of like got too deep in his own narrative and couldn't kind of like poke his head up over the clouds and see the view from, you know, 35,000 feet or whatever. So, I think Diddy's business sense, you know, I think ultimately helped keep him, keep him, you know, just above the fray.

So, still super remarkable when you look at it. He threw that first white party in 1998. That was really, that was what, like a year, a year after Biggie was killed. And, you know, just to give you an idea of the kind of stuff that was going down. I mean, he bought this house in East Hampton, and he decided that he was gonna throw the most exclusive party people just to give the background.

I did some reporting on this too, but like, it apparently if you got invited to the white party and Puffy's White party, you could not get in If you wore like a cream suit, they'd throw you out. If you had, like a blue stripe on your white shirt, they would throw you out.

So you had like grown men running home to get like an all white proper shirt to go to these parties. And you know, like pretty quickly you had Martha Stewart and Howard Stern and Donna Koran and like, Donald Trump used to go to these parties, you know, with his daughter everything. So, it was kind of like a who's who of like a certain type of celebrity in the late 90s.

And to go from, you know, from the depths of the East coast, West coast thing to that, in like a year. I think it just shows how Puffy's able to kind of flip things around and that's what he was able to do with Bad Boy. He pivoted the whole narrative and suddenly it was about Puff Daddy, the family.

It was about, you know, Godzilla soundtrack and, you know, doing the thing with an orchestra and Jimmy Page and whatever. And, you know, singing, he's able to like recreate himself and also these brands like Bad Boy that's created in his image. you know, like in a remarkably quick timeframe, I think.

[00:37:38] Dan Runcie: And to share some numbers on this era. This is peak Bad Boy. I would say this whole 97 to 1999 stretch. 1999, they sold 130 million worth of records. And for some context there, that was more than Madonna's Maverick label had that year. And this was, or Madonna, during that whole Ray of Light era, if I'm remembering the timeline, and Beautiful Stranger, if I remember the timeline correctly and more than Def Jam had at its peak that year, and this was, we did the Def Jam pod recently.

This was around the same time that Lyor was trying to get X and Jay-Z to release those albums in the same year, and Bad Boy was still doing its thing then they're Puff Daddy and the Family Tour. They went on their own arena tour, they made 15 million that year, and Puff was starting to extend himself in the same way that we saw other moguls do the same.

We talked in the Roc-A-Fella episode about, this was the time that Dame Dash had started to have different partnerships in film and district and sports and things like that. We saw Master P as well in the late 90s get his hand involved with a number of things. And one of the things that stuck out from this era is that Sean, is that, did he actually made a partnership with Johnny Cochran at the time, who was his attorney during all of the drama that he had in the late 90s after that nightclub shooting. And they started a management business that was gonna be focused on NBA players. And this just gives you an idea of all of the things that he was interested at the time.

So it really is remarkable. And a lot of it came because Diddy himself was putting himself out there. He became the brand, it was him putting it on, and he really became the most successful artist on this label. But around this time, if you start talking to some of the other artists on the label, they start to get a bit frustrated because they feel it's no longer about their development.

It is now about Puff building and doing everything for himself.

[00:39:36] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and I think that's when you know, he really starts to have all these brand extensions and, you know, you can see there's actually, I think the first Forbes cover on a hip hop artist was Puffy in 1999. And, it was a celebrity issue. And they had, Puffy and Jerry Seinfeld on the cover together, which always cracks me up.

But, you know, Seinfeld's wearing this suit and Puffy's got this like Sean John denim t-shirt on. you know, just like a walking advertisement on the front of this magazine, which is just brilliant. And, you know, so he is got that going. He's like opening restaurants, you know, and like really kind of like realizing that, he could be not only the sort of the straw that stirs the drink and like the producer and whoever behind the scenes, but also the, you know, the main artist.

And you know, I can imagine that being another artist on Bad Boy at this point, could start to get a little frustrating.

[00:40:28] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think he had a quote around the time he wanted to be David Geffen. He wanted to be bigger than David Geffen. And of course this was Pete Geffen making moves with Dreamworks and everything else. Still being, in many ways, music's prominent mogul. That was due his thing there. And this was around the same time that we have another quote from, Andre Harrell.

And I remember if you mentioned earlier, or if I mentioned earlier, there were some other quotes at the time that were less favorable than Diddy, than the ones that Harrell ended up having later. This was one of them. He said, and this was in a New York Times 1999 interview. He, Puff, gotta separate the young man thing from the business thing.

If there's an incident where the situation is going in a way that he feels slighted or disrespected, the only way for him to handle it is as if he was a 45 year old IBM, CEO, which is a very interesting way. But he's essentially saying, Hey, you gotta change your act based on where you're going and where things are.

And this is, that trending the line that we're talking about that I think that Diddy was eventually able to get to. But there was still some question marks about that and the trajectory in 1999. But to some extent, I think that kind of played to as factor. There was something about, especially some of those celebrities you mentioned, these are some more buttoned up, you know, white celebrities that never really did much on a, anything that was risky.

So someone that has the image of Puff at that time, it's like, Ooh, I'm doing this risky thing. It's almost like the person in high school that wants to date the Bad Boy literally called his label bad voice. So they're leading into that whole persona, and I think it worked a bit to his advantage there as well.

[00:42:07] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, totally. And you know, another thing people talk about, you know, I think that this time, and a lot of times I think there's a lot of jealousy going around and, you know, Puffy does this, puffy does that. But, know, one of the things that I, that I've always heard is that, Like, yeah, he's the last one at the club and you know, he's always out and, doing whatever, but he's also the, first one in, like, he outworks everybody and you know, he's somehow manages on, you know, like a couple hours of sleep at night or something.

I mean, this is another thing you sometimes hear about fantastically successful people. I hear about this, about like Richard Branson and other people too, that they just can operate on four hours of sleep or something like that. And man, you know, I mean, if you think about it, if you have that much confidence and you're that brilliant, and then also you get an extra four hours a day, you know, you get another, was it, 28 hours a week, you get like an extra day every week basically to just like do shit.

that's pretty hard to, contend with. I mean, like an extra day, like two extra waking days, to get things done. I mean, that, that's a pretty big advantage.

[00:43:13] Dan Runcie: That was a whole 90s mentality from, overall, from people that were successful. Now that I'm thinking about it, cuz of course Richard Branson, that the 90s was a transformational decade for him. You are Bill Clinton, especially when he was president, talk about getting four or five hours of sleep at night, still being able to operate and do his thing.

Even folks like Madeline Albright, who worked for him and in his cabinet were doing the same thing. And even someone like Kobe Bryant, there's that memorable. A piece of the Redeem Team documentary that came out on Netflix last year, where the younger guys at the time, LeBron, Bosh, Wade, were all going out to the club.

Were all gonna go out for the night because that Olympics was in Beijing and they're coming back from the club and Kobe's on his way to the gym in the morning. And then Kobe spoke about this himself as well. He is like, no, I'm gonna do another practice to wake up earlier than everyone else. So you think about how this compounds over time, and that's what you're saying about how that essentially gives you two, three extra days a week.

You do that time and time again, and just how much better you get. Granted the fact that those people can still do that while not requiring that much sleep. I know. I mean, I couldn't do that myself. I need those hours of sleep, but I commend those people that can.

[00:44:25] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, and who knows, you know, from a health perspective, how it affects you, you know, sort of like later in life and whatever. And, you know, do you lose more years of your life on the tail end because you didn't sleep more earlier? I mean, I guess we'll never really know, and it's hard to kind of pull out the factors and really test that.

 But in any case, you know, it does give a decided advantage, at least in the, present tense. And, he really kind of like worked with that. but you know, I mean, and then just when you thought that he was kind of out of the woods, with the specter of violence, you know, again, 1999, there's the whole thing in the club, a gun goes off, you know, there's this whole like, situation, Diddy and Shine are in the club. There's this dispute, whatever, and you know, who knows what really happened, but at the end of it, Shine went off to go to jail. And, you know, and Diddy ended up, you know, without really any kind of anything other than like, a little bit of reputational hit.

So, I think that, you know, he continued to walk that line, right? And there were just these instances kept popping up. But once again, he always managed to sort of, you know, avoid any really serious repercussions and then, you know, go on to some even bigger and better commercial thing, shortly thereafter, you know, which he did eventually with Ciroc and, what have you.

But, you know, it didn't really seem to hurt anything with Bad Boy. Although I think around that time, you know, his career as a solo artist started faltering a little bit to be sure

[00:45:42] Dan Runcie: And I think this is a good time to talk about the proverbial Bad Boy curse that's been discussed. There are a number of artists that have had their issues with Bad Boys, specifically with Diddy in terms of whether they feel like they were fairly compensated for things. And it's artists like Faith Evans 112, Mark Curry, and the Locks as well as most recently as a couple years ago, Mase famously people that have publicly claimed to try to get what's theirs called out Diddy for not doing certain things.

And then on the flip side, you have people that surrounded themselves with Diddy, and Diddy was the one that came out, scott free, and they were the ones that ended up in challenges and some of that Diddy benefited from by associating himself with them, but they didn't necessarily work outta that same way.

You of course mentioned Shine, who, his career never really took off after he had that brief moment where that Bad Boy song came out. I think that was in 2000. They had sampled that, the Barrington Levee reggae song and then had him on that. But you had a few instances like that. I look back on one of my favorite songs from The Bad Boy era.

let's Get It with G. Dep and Black Rob. And the sad part about that song is that you have G. Dep, the first person that was. Or essentially his lead single, he's saying that he's saying, or he did special delivery as well. G. Dep eventually ended up being locked up for a murder that he had done in the 90s, but then it had some run-ins after that Black Rob unfortunately passed away a few years ago, and I don't think was ever really able to capture that momentum after Whoa. And a few of the other songs he had with Bad Boy had come out. And then of course you had Diddy who, you know, is still thriving doing his thing.

And I think that's true as well. You look at an artist like Lone who l kind of had his moment where they were trying to make lone really be a thing, especially with the, I need a girl, part one and part two, but then Loon as well, ends up getting locked up. I think there was a heroin charge or something like that.

So all of these folks that were around Diddy in some way ended up having their challenges. Not all of them, but some of them.

[00:47:50] Zack Greenburg: For sure. And I think, you know, probably around this time, you know, the sort of like the turn of the millennium was, you know, the moment, when did he kind of realize that he had to, he did have to start figuring out his next step. And if it wasn't gonna be him, as an artist, you know, and it wasn't gonna be somebody else on his roster, it was gonna have to be something else.

 And so I think this is sort of like when you think about the Bad Boy era, you know, I don't know, I think about it as sort of like early 90s to late to, you know, to really the end of the decade. And although, you know, of course it went on and it continues to stay at different, you know, sort of capacities.

It's like that was sort of the prime era. And, I think once the fortunes of the label became too closely intertwined with Diddy's as a solo artist, then when he stopped being such a big deal as a solo artist, the prospects of the of Bad Boy itself were a little bit more limited.

[00:48:45] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Question for you. Do you think that, well, lemme take a step back. In the Cash Money episode that we talked about not just the disputes people have had with Birdman and Slim over the years, over disputes, but also the notorious reputation that they've built up. Do you feel like the reputation with Puff is similar in that way?

And if it's different, why do you think so?

[00:49:09] Zack Greenburg: So you mean Puff like the Cash Money sort of similarly having trouble paying people?

[00:49:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, Yeah, and whether that reputation has stuck with Puff the same way that it's clearly stuck with Bert and Slim.

[00:49:21] Zack Greenburg: I think they both have, you know, or rather the three of them, I think it does follow them around, but in different ways. I mean, I think, I think with cash money, there's some element of it that's like, well, you know, I think their response to a lot of it is this stuff began when, you know, the things weren't properly papered up and, you know, nobody really knew how these things worked and blah, blah, blah.

And you know, you can sort of agree with that or not, right? Or maybe you could say it is to some extent your responsibility to make sure things are paid up, you know, once you become that successful. but, you know, I think that Puff was sort of like, you know, Bad Boy was, done through Clive through real estate.

It was done through a major label, sort of from the beginning. And, you know, I think you could argue actually that that's why Cash Money was ultimately worth more, like, was like a bigger source of the Williams Brothers wealth than Bad Boy ever was, for Diddy. And he had to go, you know, do these other things.

 But you know, like it wasn't as though there were no lawyers involved. It wasn't as though there wasn't some big record label apparatus. There absolutely was. And you know, so I, think that excuse sort of like, doesn't fly quite as much. it's probably not leveled quite as much with him either, but, you know, but it's definitely there and, it's sort of like, it's hard to look past it in some regards.

[00:50:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think that one of the reasons why I think the public image of it is different is because of the businesses that the two are involved in. Bird man's a music man almost in the same way that Clive Davis is a music man. That's what we know him as even in the conversation you had shared last time where you were doing this extensive feature profile with them on Forbes and you were gonna have another follow-up conversation with him that night, and he's like, no, no.

Bird Man's still in the studio. He's doing his thing like that's what he wants to do versus Puff has his interest in all these other areas, beverages, spirits, sports, entertainment, now with Revolt or Sean John, or whatever it is. So there's so many more things we know him as, or he's running the New York City marathon, he's trying to launch this thing, and all of those things can broaden your image of him.

So if you hear a complaint about the one particular aspect of this business, that's one area of what he's doing, as opposed to us knowing Bird and Slim as. The owners of this record label, and now there's a dispute with the one thing that we know them for.

[00:51:49] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Okay. I see what you mean. So it's sort of like, in a way it's less central like the music is less central to his identity, therefore we hear less about the disputes because we just hear less about the music side overall.

[00:52:01] Dan Runcie: Right.

[00:52:02] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, and then, when you look at what happened to Bad Boy, you know, even just from a corporate perspective, it was a 2005, he sold 50% of it to Warner for 30 million bucks, something like that.

So, obviously that, means, you know, by those numbers it was worth 60 million. At the time there was probably just the recorded music side and there was publishing as well, which is separate. I think you did some other publishing deals too, but you know, that number in 2005, I mean, I'm sure that's lower than.

Cash money was valued at in 2005. But, you know, he just kind of made the decision to pull some money off the table, right? And I think that says some, something about his priorities too, that he wasn't that focused on the music side of things. So, you know, like, let's make this deal and then move on, to the next thing.

And I think a couple years after that was when he launched Ciroc or, you know, came on with Ciroc and launched his Ciroc campaign presence, whatever you wanna call it. you know, partnership thing. So, I think ultimately for Bad Boy, you know, I think it had a peak that was as high as really, you know, any label, in hip hop did.

But its fortunes became so wrapped up with Puffy that once, once he moved away from music, it's like, how are you ever really gonna come back from that?

[00:53:15] Dan Runcie: Right. It really wasn't a business it was a business, but almost in the same way that a lot of people that are creators now and trying to do things, there's this ongoing discussion or debate they have about whether are you trying to build a business with a roster around you, or is this more so a soul entity?

And I think Bad Boy definitely saw both of those things, but you normally seen in the flip side where you start with the lead person being known as the thing, and then they add the roster around them. But Bad Boy was kind of the opposite, where you had this roster and then it becomes the lead person becoming more known for the thing.

[00:53:48] Zack Greenburg: And I think it moved away from that assembly line idea, you know, the Motown thing, the Coachella thing, whatever, you know, you're gonna, buy the tickets for, you know, who's there. It just became all about Puff and, you know, I think in a way he realized it was more lucrative that way, right? N o matter how involved he was in however many different pro projects as sort of the, the Berry Gordy, he could make more, you know, for himself being Puff. And in a way, when you look at Ciroc, it's like, you know, it's the same thing, right? Like he's selling the Art of celebration.

 He's selling his brand of success. He just doesn't have to sign other artists to it, you know? So I see has Ciroc Boys, you know, that's, I mean, it is almost like a record label to some extent, you know, if you like an extension of, Bad Boy. If you think about, you know, the different artists who are kind of like involved on some level, you know, over the years with that brand, it just, you don't have to get involved in like publishing and, you know, licensing and mechanical royalties and all of that fun stuff.

[00:54:50] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think with that it's a good chance to talk about some of these categories we have here. So what do you think is the best signing that Bad Boy did?

[00:54:59] Zack Greenburg: I think a hundred percent, you gotta go with Biggie, no doubt. I mean, you know, if you're calling the signing $500,000 to get him over from uptown, you know, plus whatever they ended up paying him. I mean, you think about the success of Life after Death and all the other albums and, you know, the albums that, were sort of in the hopper after he died.

I mean, I think hard to top that.

[00:55:19] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Yeah, No debates there. That was the same one. What do you think is the best business move to come from Bad Boy?

[00:55:26] Zack Greenburg: I would, I would argue that, I would argue Sean John because, you know, in creating the Bad Boy image, that was, you know, really bankrolled like all those videos, obviously Bankrolled by Arista, bankrolled by, you know, the, parent company, you know, Puffy created this aura around himself, which was very fashion oriented.

And then he was able to parlay that into creating, you know, an actual fashion brand that he owned, or at least, you know, partially owned and himself, which then generated hundreds of billions of dollars. And then he sold and got, you know, whatever it was, a hundred million dollars and he bought it back.

but anyway, he did really well for himself. I think with the help of this shine that was kind of like given or enabled at least, by a Bad Boy.

[00:56:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's a good one. The other thing that I wanna give some love to, that we haven't talked about much yet, but was the Bad Boy Street team and how they went about promoting and pushing their records all over the major cities. A lot of people may think that Bad Boy invented to the street team.

I think I still do give loud of records credit for that, but Bad Boy did take things to another level, and this goes back to Puff and his strength as a promoter. This is what Club promoters do. This is how you push and get the word out there. So he's able to replicate himself. He's able to empower the people to feel like they're part of Bad Boy himself and making sure that they're styled in the same way, to be able to help sell that same image that Puff wants to sell himself.

And you saw him replicate this as well with Ciroc Boys and things like that. And shout out to Sean Perez, who worked with Puff at Bad Boy and on Ciroc on this same strategy.

[00:57:07] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Although, you know, it was a great one, and a great strategy, but it didn't always work. What's the line? I felt like Bad Boys Street team, I couldn't work. the locks.

True.

[00:57:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Usually worked. But yeah, they just needed to see the vision as they said. what's the best dark horse move? You have a good one for this.

[00:57:27] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. maybe a little controversial. I don't know. I'm gonna go shine. Because if Paul hadn't signed Shine, I mean, I don't know, you know, I'm not a lawyer or anything, but, all I know is that something went down in that club and, Sean ended up doing, you know, like a decade and, Puff, you know, got away without any trouble.

So, I think that worked out pretty well. But actually I think they're back friends also, Shine, you know, like converted to Judaism, moved to Israel, then he's like back in Belize where I think he was born and now he's like a member of parliament or something, and Puff has helped him with his campaign and there, so there's like pictures of them together and they've managed to patch things up.

So, you know, I think that speaks to Puffy's gratitude for whatever, you know, whatever went on in the late 90s there,

[00:58:10] Dan Runcie: so signing a fall, man.

[00:58:12] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Well, well, whatever you wanna call it. I don't know. I don't know, and people forget that Shine was supposed to be the next Biggie.

Like you know, he was sort of like the heir apparent

[00:58:21] Dan Runcie: He had the voice, He had the vibe. you hear Bad Boys, that, I know I mentioned it earlier, but you hear that Bad Boy song in Beson Levy, you're like, oh, he has it. It's almost in that same way where there's people that have that grit that reminds you of that, like New York Grit sound, whether it's a, Chuck D or even when, I know people may laugh at this, but when Ja Rule first came out and they were hearing him on mixtapes, they thought he had that same sound too, and Shine had it.

[00:58:45] Zack Greenburg: yeah, yeah. Absolutely mean DMX had that edge. So, yeah, I wondered what would've happened with Shine, you know, ultimately if things had kind of gone differently there. but you know, and I think Puff has expressed this, but he's kind of, he feels bad about the way things went down and he, he feels like, you know, that Shine ultimately got the short end of the stick and, you know, but they seem to have, you know, gotten over it at like even more than some artists have gotten over whatever, you know, royalty situation, that they don't agree with. So, you know, there's a dark horse candidate

[00:59:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good one. The one I have is the original hip hop artist partnering on a fast food release, and that is of course the Big Mac. We go back to mid 90s, I think it was 93 or 94. They have the Big Mac meal, and that was part of the push to have Biggie be more present. And this is where you're already seeing how Puff is thinking about how to have his artist be part of that lifestyle.

What are you trying to sell, what are you trying to integrate with? And then of course, we saw things blow up 25 years later with all of the meals, with the Travis Scott meal and the J Balvin deal and all of the things that McDonald's had done, especially in the beginning of the pandemic, you saw Burger King and others fall in line.

And these have always happened in waves, but I always point back to that one as that was the original one. I'm necessarily know about the sales numbers, but if anything it sticks out more so as. That mentality.

[01:00:12] Zack Greenburg: a really good I, I like Uh, certainly fits with everything that, that puff has been about, um, forward too. So

[01:00:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah.

My missed opportunity for bad. Boy, we've alluded to this several times, but not being able to make things work to some degree. In the two thousands. I think that a lot of people talk about the demise of New York hip hop and how strong New York hip hop was in the 90s and what happened in the two thousands.

And I think you still had strong artists in the two thousands. You clearly had the 50 cent beef. You clearly had Daisy and Nas. These are all things that happened in the two thousands and heat up, but there really was an opportunity to be able to see some of that continue. We saw that brief moment, I think it was in 2006, where Diddy releases press play.

They signed Cassie and you start to see a little bit of this comeback. He then has another one in 2011, I believe, where he releases that song, I'm Coming Home and that becomes

another

[01:01:16] Zack Greenburg: that was a really fun song. I like that song a lot

[01:01:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and that was a big hit. That was a big hit. And it's like, okay, you know, Diddy's over 40. Now he's still able to command himself on the radio, And granted, I don't think that Diddy necessarily tried to position himself as the best rapper himself like he wasn't Jay-Z necessarily. Where, okay, it makes sense for you to continue to be the brand, but if you know that you're not necessarily going to be known as that, how do you find ways to continue that?

And I know that they tried to sign artists, and I know that's several of the artists I mentioned had had their struggles. But where was the opportunity to have a bit more time to nurture these artists and not just nurture 'em from a talent perspective? Cause I think many of them were clearly talented, even on the R&B side.

I think about artists like Mario Winans and folks like that. But how do you find the way to really cultivate and build this as a unit the same way that others in New York were starting to do at the time? It's almost like when Bad Boys started to decline. You saw the rise of Roc-A-Fella, you saw the rise of Dipset, you saw the rise of all these other groups in New York that were doing their thing.

[01:02:16] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think that's a great one for missed opportunity. I mean, I was gonna say the locks, you know, to go back to that line, Bad Boy Street team couldn't work the locks. But, you know, I love the locks. They were great and, you know, like, ah, how did you, you mess that one up? But, you know, if you kind of look at what the locks were about, and what Bad Boy had kind of evolved to be about, you know, this was sort of like post shiny suit era.

Bad Boy had gotten away a little bit from what it was. In, you know, the early to mid 90s and it was like, maybe got a little too glitzy and so it was sort of at odds with where hip hop was at the time. And, you know, this was around when 50 cent was becoming really big and kind of taking things over.

Things had gotten sort of like a little more aggressive again and, you know, like, a little more of that edge. But, you know, Puff had kind of like moved even beyond that to the point where, you know, I don't know that puffy in that era could have even been an artist on his own label and in the early to mid 90s, right? And whereas I think the Locks would've been a perfect fit in the early to mid 90s. It was just a little bit of an odd, you know, combination by that point, with what Bad Boy had kind of, you know, evolved into. so in a funny way, I would almost say like, they should have done a trade, they should have traded the locks for Camron or for Dipset.

You know, I mean, I feel like Dipset, there's the Harlem connection, you know, like Come home with Me, had a little bit more of that Bad Boy kind of vibe to

it.

[01:03:52] Dan Runcie: definitely.

[01:03:54] Zack Greenburg: yeah, yeah,

[01:03:55] Dan Runcie: Oh boy. Especially with the samples as well

[01:03:57] Zack Greenburg: Samples and, you know, whereas like the locks I think would've fit more in with what, Roc-A-Fella's doing at the time, you know, in state property and all that stuff.

So, you know, like little fantasy baseball trade. I know it doesn't work like that in music, but,

[01:04:12] Dan Runcie: I wish it did though. I wish it did.

[01:04:15] Zack Greenburg: That could have been really fun, right? And I think we said last time that Cameron and D ipset said were sort of like a bit of a missed opportunity for Roc-A-Fella and, you know, I wonder if things had been flipped, if it would've turned out differently for both those acts.

[01:04:28] Dan Runcie: Great example. I think that Bad Boy not being able to work the locks it in many ways reminds me of the The oklahoma City Thunder, not being able to figure out why they should keep James Harden. And then they trade James Harden for Kevin Martin and then James Harden goes on to beat this MVP candidate and it's like, oh shit, we had that.

Well, I mean, you knew you had something, the guy was sixth man of the year. He played meaningful minutes in the finals, in 2012 when they played the heat at the time. But yeah, that's exactly what this was. And then he goes and does his own thing and it's like, oh shit. That's what we had. And you saw the same with Jada Kiss to some extent.

Oh one, he releases Kiss the Game Goodbye and we gonna make it is one of the best hip hop tracks from that era. And it's like, oh, we had this all along granted. And I don't think that the locks, I mean the locks still were on plenty of Grammy award-winning singles and big splashy hits like the Honey Remix and stuff like that when they're on Bad Boy.

But you were able to really see them get and. Live their own life and breathe in away. So, yeah. Oh man. The locks for Camron

[01:05:34] Zack Greenburg: The locks were Dipset to make it even. Yeah.

[01:05:37] Dan Runcie: That would've made that whole versus battle something completely different.

[01:05:41] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So, I don't know, maybe it's not too late. maybe they can work that out. you call Puff. I'll call Jay. How about that?

[01:05:49] Dan Runcie: I know. Let's do that. Let's do that

[01:05:50] Zack Greenburg: Or you wanna flip it? I don't know.

[01:05:54] Dan Runcie: Well, the one they keep talking about now is, well by they, not the actual people a verses, but Puff and, Jermaine Dupri himself, they keep talking about that one, trying to do a so-so death versus, Bad Boy versus, but we'll see if that one ever happens. I feel like that's kind of Puff doing the hype machine and just staying in the conversation.

[01:06:12] Zack Greenburg: You know, I don't know. I think it would be more fun to see like, if you could get, you know, obviously you couldn't do Bad Boy Death Row with, Puff and Suge, but you could do what if you did it with like, Dre, you know, and Snoop, you know, and then you had Puff and somebody else.

I don't know, but I don't think they would do it. It's like maybe a time that, you know, we don't wanna revisit it anymore, but yeah, we do hear,

[01:06:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah. but no, there's definitely something there. But yeah, before we wrap things up, though, I know the answer to this one, but who do we think want the most out of Bad Boy?

[01:06:41] Zack Greenburg: Oh, yeah. Puff, I

[01:06:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, not even a question. I mean, maybe to his fault to some degree, but it's one of these things where I don't think it would've reached the same heights it did, especially in the late 90s if he wasn't front and center.

But that was more of a short term money grab, in my opinion, just given the nature of it and not being able to really build a strong business. That said, he was able to build strong businesses off the back of what he did, and we all know how music is a platform to be able to build other businesses, just so shout out to him for doing that.

But there was a world where you could have done all these things by having

the right people around you.

[01:07:16] Zack Greenburg: For sure. And you could also say, of course, like with Biggie, you know, biggie wasn't really breaking on Uptown, but he did break on Bad Boy because Puff knew how to market him. you know, certainly it all worked out very well for, Clive Davis. you know, I think that kept him relevant in a way that, you know, would not have been possible otherwise, perhaps for like an extra, you know, couple decades, in certain spheres anyway.

 And, you know, still considered one of the great, record executives of all time. And I think, you know, Puff. Puff really helped burnish that legacy. So, you know, I mean, there were other people who won, but I think Puff, certainly won the most

[01:07:52] Dan Runcie: Without a doubt. anything else before we wrap things up on Bad boy?

[01:07:56] Zack Greenburg: Can't Stop Won't stop, right? What's he gonna do next? I don't know, you know, I mean, just when you think that you know, Bad Boy is like in, mostly in the rear view and it's, you know, legacy nostalgia thing, you know, he goes out and he does a Bad Boy reunion tour and he manages to pull in all these great people.

I mean, I remember going to see him at the Barclays Center when they did that whole thing. And, you know, in addition to, to pulling, you know, most of that roster together, he just brought Jay-Z out, like surprise, you know, here you go. So, he has that ability to just pull all kinds of rabbits outta hats.

you know, and, that could be Bad Boy related or not.

[01:08:32] Dan Runcie: That show was a lot of fun. I saw it here. they had it at Oracle, Oakland. It was a lot of fun, waiting to see if they're gonna do a movie. You think Puff would sign off on that?

[01:08:41] Zack Greenburg: Ooh. Yeah. You know, I mean, I think it depends, how it aligns with everything else, you know, is there like a Ciroc placement that could be had? you know, that kind of thing. I could see it. I could see it.

[01:08:52] Dan Runcie: I could see it too. I know that there's this fine line where some of these movies, especially if the main person involved is a little bit too attached to the project, then there's certain things that are gonna be sanitized over and even a conversation like you and I had, a lot of the things that we discussed may not even make it there.

And I know that there's a fine line with these things. I think that's Straight Outta Compton. Navigated that pretty well. And I think that's still my favorite hip hop biopic that we've seen done so far. Granted, people still felt that they glossed over Dr. Dre's controversies with women. And to be honest, I think that differ that movie would be received differently and maybe even have some different reviews, especially if it came out in a Post Me Too era.

But it'll be interesting to see if they do something like that. I mean, Puff is always in the business of maximizing things. And I'd had Tarik Brooks, who's now president of Combs Global on the podcast, and it sounds like, wow, he probably wouldn't wanna sell any of his music, rights that he may own in the same way they could be interested in further multimedia.

[01:09:56] Zack Greenburg: right. I mean, there was that biggie biopic that, you know, that may have already kind of gobbled up some of the, the part of the story that, you know, would, be involved in a Bad Boy.

[01:10:05] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. Notorious, right? That came out in like 09' or so.

[01:10:09] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, gosh, I can't believe it's that long ago already, but, you never know. It's already been, gosh, almost 15 years,

[01:10:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's like how many Whitney Houston Biopics have we had, right? I think there was at least two of 'em. And then you had this bigger one come out last year, so you never know.

[01:10:23] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sponsored by Ciroc.

[01:10:26] Dan Runcie: Sponsored by Ciroc that this podcast is not,

No, just to clarify. No free ads here, but

No.

[01:10:34] Zack Greenburg: Yeah,

[01:10:36] Dan Runcie: But Zach, thanks for joining. Pleasure as always, man.

[01:10:39] Zack Greenburg: As always, Dan, thanks for having me.

]]> 4277 no Why Music Streaming Can’t Agree on a Payout Model (with Lucas Shaw) https://www.trapital.com/podcast Music streaming’s payout model is under a microscope. The industry’s stakeholders — the labels, DSPs, artists, and rights holders — all want more of the pie, but no one can agree on how. Should we stick with the pro-rata model that pools all streams together? Or move to the user-centric model that some DSPs have tested out? Should longer songs count more than a 30-second audio track? What if that artist you choose to start your music session with gets paid more than an algorithmic play? How can we stop the fraud? Would all these problems get solved if prices increased?.  These questions are all up for debate. As growth slows down, everyone wants more of the pie.  To discuss, I’m joined by Bloomberg’s Lucas Shaw to break it all down. Here’s everything we discussed:  [0:42] How this debate started [6:59] Proposed multiplier model [10:43] Pro-rata vs. fan-centric models [13:54] Factoring streaming duration without fraud [17:38] Will big players budge? [19:22] Monetizing fandom [27:21] What if Spotify raises its prices? [29:48] 2024 predictions  [32:11] Bloomberg’s Screentime conference Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Lucas Shaw, @Lucas_Shaw This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Lucas Shaw: The artist are one constituency, and the record labels or another, the artist could say, well, we might be happier if the record labels gave us a bigger share. And so, the best way, again, to keep all of those constituencies happy is to just grow the pie instead of reallocating and trying to sort of tilt it towards the big player. [00:00:29] Dan Runcie Intro Audio: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:55] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is all about streaming. It's the platform that saved the music industry, and lately it's been the platform that has sparked countless debates on how best to compensate rights holders, the artists, and the underlying companies that provide these services. This has been a polarizing topic ever since the beginning of streaming, but these topics have intensified recently for a few reasons. First, growth is starting to slow down. We're no longer in the 2017, 20 18, 20 19. Fast growth rate of streaming. Growth is starting to slow, and whenever the pockets tighten up, people get more concerned about how that current pot of money is split. Second, two of the biggest major record labels, universal and Warner, have went public in recent years, and there's more pressure, especially from those new shareholders. That wanna see returns for the big investments that they made. So how does this all shape the broader questions around how big the pie is, how the pie gets split, and what are the best ways to increase that pie? So join me in this discussion. I'm joined by Lucas Shaw from Bloomberg. He also is a frequent guest on the Town with Matt Bellamy, highly recommend that podcast if you haven't yet. And on today's episode, Lucas and I break it all down, all the facets, all the interests of the various stakeholders. It would make a few predictions in how we think this whole dynamic, this whole debate, how we think it plays out. Here's the episode. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:16] Dan Runcie: All right. We have Lucas Shaw here with us from Bloomberg. First time on the pod, welcome. [00:02:21] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. Thanks for having me. Excited to chat. [00:02:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. This is a topic I know you've written about. It's something I've been thinking a lot about. I feel like for years now, the debates around music streaming, model payouts have been going on for a while. Things definitely intensified the beginning of this year, and we're seeing more comments, more partnerships, but still not much movement. But every time I see this, I feel like I just always gravitate back towards. The record labels and the streaming services have two different incentives on what growth looks like, what success looks like, and I feel like that's the underlying problem towards, with so much of this. What's your take on it? [00:02:59] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I mean, it's funny for a while there Well, when YouTube first came around and Spotify and streaming, there was all this tension between music companies and streaming services because music companies felt like tech companies had sort of killed their business, and blamed them for a lot of their problems. And were always complaining about royalties and all that. And then I would actually say for the last five years there's been relative like calm and happiness because music industry revenues have been going up. All the record labels are doing pretty well. The streaming services continue to grow. And now we've hit this another inflection point where the current model, which has again, worked great for basically a decade, has started to slow, you know, the record labels revenue isn't growing as quickly as it has been. And the streaming services though, they're still growing. they're growing at a lot of places like India, Southeast Asia, where the average person's not paying that much, so the revenue doesn't quite compare. And so, hence why we have now a lot of noise over the last six to nine months around, you know, a new model, quote unquote, for music streaming. Mind you, SoundCloud has been proposing a new model for a long time and most of the majors just like didn't buy into it, and we can get into it. And I think to some extent that's you talking about the different priorities. and the labels are talking about like their own version of SoundCloud's is fan powered royalties. The labels wanna talk about artist centric, but they've provided almost no detail as to what they want this new model to be. but I don't know, maybe you can design it for them. [00:04:36] Dan Runcie: I think you highlighted the inflection point, which is part of this issue. We saw so much growth. Growth is now starting to slow down, and I think growth is also slowing down in this post IPO era of the major record labels you have UMG goes public summer 2021. Warner goes public the summer before that. And those stocks have been down since those IPOs or since, since they went public. I think Warner's is down at least 16%, or Warner's is down around 11%. UMG is down at least 16%. And you have all these other actors like Bill Ackman and others getting involved in, they praised UMG so much when this deal happened. They wanna see a return on that. So I think a lot of the pressure is coming into. All of the things we're hearing, whether it's how much to charge for streaming, how much. How that actual price is being charged, how it should be distributed. And to your point, as you mentioned SoundCloud, we've heard a few things from Title, Deezer, others have been testing out new models. I think part of the challenge there though, is those models in a lot of ways have been pushed as ways to increase revenue opportunities for the independent artists and the artists that are using those platforms. Cuz I think that's one of the big takeaways from these user-centric fan power royalties. They can't add a bit of a boost to the indie artists, especially if you have a user that really likes them, but they haven't necessarily been as favorable to the biggest artists in the world. And those are the artists that the major record labels want any type of change to ultimately benefit. [00:06:10] Lucas Shaw: Yes, cuz we all know that Taylor Swift and Drake and the weekend are really hurting and they need the extra two or $3 million from Spotify. yeah, I mean that's sort of the nut of the disagreement, right? Is that the major labels want their artists, the professionals, the Crème de la crème to get more and more and more than some dude making ambient noise in his basement or like a young Dua Lipa wannabe, or, I don't know, something amateurs [00:06:36] Dan Runcie: Rain music is the thing that I kept hearing. Rain music and whale music. [00:06:41] Lucas Shaw: But, you know, I don't know, it's like distinguishing between different levels of stream, right? And, one of the issues for me, I guess is YouTube and other services have sort of eliminated the distinction between amateur and professional, you know, like any amateur is basically a viral video away from being a professional if they want be. And so I think it gets very tricky to try to charge different prices or deliver different royalties for different people. Not to say that there's not some innovation to be had in the model. I'm just not sure that's it. [00:07:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think YouTube's a good place to start with this cuz there's a few models that we can break into. There's a few proposed changes that are structured in here. YouTube is actually where Warner Music group's current CEO, Robert Kinsel, he used to be chief business Officer over there. And one of the things that he was really pushing over there was this project called Project Bean. And it was a multiplier approach where the thought is if you start your listening session, or in YouTube's case, if you start your viewing session with a particular artist or creator, then that person should be compensated more for the duration of what they lead to and the fact that you might be searching for them as opposed to an algorithmically-led play stream, listen, whatever it is. And he's ultimately pushing for a similar thing war, with, the streaming services. Now, I believe it was at a Morgan Stanley call or conference where he had said, if you start your music session with Lizzo, then Lizzo should be paid more. For that, and I think that's an element of trying to separate the weed from the shaft. They're trying to focus in on what they consider to be their creme de la creme. To your point, I don't think Lizzo is necessarily heard and she just went on a huge arena tour, but that's ultimately what they want, I think that does highlight how not all streams are weighted the same, but it's still a zero sum game. So if you are going to be providing more through this revenue multiplier opportunity, you're potentially still taking away from others. [00:08:42] Lucas Shaw: See to me that's the issue is that they're sort of talking about ways to divide the pie differently. Instead of talking about ways to grow the pie, now they're talking about both, but I think it's more important and likely more fruitful going forward to try to talk about ways to grow the pie. It's also, I would add an interesting way for music companies to deflect from their own accounting, you know, for years, music companies got mad at streaming services because they said that they didn't pay artists enough and they like got all the artists, or at least a lot of them fairly riled up in saying, you know, oh, like Spotify pays me, you know, a third of ascent for every stream. And that's not fair. But the pie grew by a lot every year. And one of the thing, and so the music companies is partially also cuz they went public, as you noted, like stop attacking the streaming services. But there's one thing that's always been true, which is that the record companies and the music publishers decide, how a lot of that money is allocated, right? It's Lucien Grange head of Universal Music Group who helps decide that the record labels get more than the publishers, the songwriters, because they make generally have better splits. With the record labels. Now they'd push back on that and say that that's not true. I'm just, that's one version of how this plays out. The other thing is that, again, then in those deals, like the record, labels keep a lot of that royalty money. So you could argue there's sort of the artist are one constituency, and the record labels or another, the artist could say, well, we might be happier if the record labels gave us a bigger share. And so the best way, again, to keep all of those constituencies happy is to just grow the pie instead of reallocating and trying to sort of tilt it towards the big player. [00:10:29] Dan Runcie: Which is why we didn't hear as many complaints about this in 2017, 18, 19, when growth was just up and to the right. Everyone was making more. More so there was less pressure on this particular issue itself. [00:10:41] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. And because I think to what you said, like a lot of these companies are starting to think about two of the three major music companies are starting to think about going public. And then you don't wanna, you know, you don't wanna freak people out. Stability is good when you have public markets. [00:10:56] Dan Runcie: Right, and that's the other challenge that we often hear. So one of the broader underlying debates that we've been hearing about is whether you keep the current model pro rata. Which pools all of the streams and then that then gets paid out to the rights holders depending on their share of those streams. And then that is a percentage of the overall revenue that comes in, both for subscription and then for ad support. And then of course, on the user-centric side, it shifts to the per user perspective, and that's where things can get so wild and hairy. Because if I don't log into Spotify for a month and I only listen to one artist versus. Three artists that I love come out the next month. They're still all splitting that same $10 a month, and that happens for everyone. So it makes the revenue less predictable and all of these things, granted those are extreme cases, but if you look at that on a magnitude level, it could lead to much more variability that publicly traded companies don't generally like. [00:11:54] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. what do you make of the fan centric model? [00:11:58] Dan Runcie: I do think that if we were starting from scratch, I think that's the better way to go about it because I think we're now looking at fan centric in this lens of how it disrupts the current model. I do think that if we started looking at things from, okay, how do you monetize that particular user? It centers everyone a bit more on the focus of, okay, how do we end up getting that sole user to stay on the service, to wanna stay committed, to make sure that we're offering things that they want? And I do think that there's gamification that happen on both sides, but I think from a net positive perspective, I do think that that is the one that generally leads to the more fair outcomes. I still think there's plenty of issues with it, but that's if we were starting from scratch, that's what I would say. It's just tough now because we're now a decade and a half in. [00:12:50] Lucas Shaw: And is there a version or are there other, tweaks to the model that you think have a chance of being widely adopted? Yeah,  [00:12:57] Dan Runcie: there's a few things. So I think one of the things we haven't talked about a lot is duration, because that's a whole nother aspect of this debate. So right now the streaming services, don't clock a stream until it has at least 30 seconds of a particular song. So whether you have a 31 second sleep track that is just added to Spotify, or you have Bohemian Rhapsody, each of those songs is essentially, counts the same. I think that there should be something in place that compensates you listening to that longer song more than that, I do think though, that the challenges, you're still taking away from that. But in generally speaking, the songs that are 31 seconds mostly aren't necessarily to the same degree, quality, whatever it is, of a song that would be, you know, that 3, 4, 5 plus minute range. [00:13:53] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. Although couldn't that, also benefit if people would, could, wouldn't people just start uploading like 45 second, or excuse me, 45 minute sleep tracks and they could manipulate it that way. I mean, that gets into the other issue that obviously comes up a lot, and has become sort of a, big topic over the last year in particular is the idea of fraud. Which I see, I mean, a certain amount of that is, just always gonna happen. but is if you really wanted to discriminate against a particular genre or a particular type of listening, that would be the big one. if you buy into these estimates that like 10% of music listening it's fraud, you know that's billions of dollars that are going to people who maybe don't deserve it. [00:14:31] Dan Runcie: Right, and that's definitely one of the cons there. I think about the thing is, one of the things I started to accept was there's always gonna be some level of fraud or issue with it. Because I was thinking about the flip side. Let's say that we went to this user-centric model, and let's say that Spotify, apple, Amazon, all of them were on board. What would fraud look like from that perspectivea and the place I led to is the streaming farms would look less like these places that just have endless songs just playing on repeat. But it would be more like having, whether it's fraudulent users or bots or other people just signing into a service, playing one stream from one saw or one artist, or setting up an account and then going from there. And it made me think back to the CD or even the tape era where artists and their own record labels would go buy their own albums and things like that. And granted, maybe not necessarily fraud because it's just, you know, one distributor going further down and buying directly from the retailer. But there's always some type of issue there. And to your point as well, it could also just lead to 45 second tracks or endless tracks to game the duration day long playlist. So there's potential issues either way. Cause I think even with the current model, granted, we haven't necessarily talked about streaming itself in some of the gamification that happens there, but all of these longer albums, shorter releases, music has always adapted to its business model regardless, and I think this is another aspect of this, and that could likely happen again if things ever shifted to a more user-centric approach. [00:16:03] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, we just need more people to pull a tiara whack and release a 15 minute album. [00:16:08] Dan Runcie: I know. [00:16:08] Lucas Shaw: Works for our short. [00:16:11] Dan Runcie: I feel like Spice is kind of an interesting example of this. I feel like all of the songs on her most recent mixtape are, I don't think any of them are longer than three minutes. They're all within two or maybe even a minute and change. So she's another one that probably lines up here. What do you think, how do you think this actually plays out though? Because that's the piece that I've been thinking a lot about because. Since the beginning of the year, Lucian had his letter that he put out that called for a change. We've seen Kinsel and others speak about this, and Universal has also partnered with SoundCloud. They partnered with Deezer, they partnered with title for a new model. We've seen these announcements come, we've seen these partnerships happen, but we haven't exactly seen new developments since then. And I still have to imagine that it's gonna take a lot for Spotify or Apple or Amazon, especially the bigger ones to wanna play. So part of me is skeptical on whether these changes will happen in the same way, because I think that the labels just feel a bit of pressure where. Then their shareholders and others wanna be able to continue to grow, especially post IPO. They don't have the same leverage, let's say in video where you could easily pull your content. They rely on Spotify and Apple and Amazon way too much. So they're kind of squeezed here and they're trying to do it through public advocacy. They're trying to partner with smaller DSPs that have their own different incentives to support independent artists. So, and they don't necessarily have the technology themselves to go launch their own service to go do a Disney plus type of thing. And I know audio and video are just so different in that way, so I'm a bit skeptical. But what's your take? How do you see this playing out? [00:17:51] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I mean, I share your skepticism. Until a major music company can point to an arrangement with one of those smaller independents, the Deezers, the titles of SoundClouds, and say, we've figured this out and this is why it's better for us. I don't think they're gonna have any success convincing the bigger players. And if you look at, excuse me, if you look at the priorities of Apple, Amazon, YouTube, and Spotify, sort of the, the big four, apple, Amazon, and YouTube, on the one hand could be persuaded because, you know, they don't have a lot to lose there. But, they don't have a lot of reason, like they're not relying on their music services to make a ton of money, to make them profitable. I mean, there are all these companies are under pressure to improve their financials, but it's not clear how, like reforming the model to benefit major labels and or artists in any way benefits them. If anything, most of these companies have wanted to reduce the power of major labels because them have them having a lot of leverage makes their negotiations more complicated. You look at a Spotify, they would like the major labels to have less of a say because it gives them a better chance in the long run of trying to improve their margins and reduce their payouts to rights holders. I think it's more likely that they look for ways to grow the overall pie, because that's what would most benefit them. which is why I think, you know, we've already seen Apple and Amazon raise prices. It's inevitable to me that Spotify is gonna raise prices. they're already, they're now trotting out or about to release A higher priced, high quality, service. I don't think those really matter, but raising prices on the base service to me is just such a no-brainer. I mean, the idea that that Spotify still costs $10 a month is insane to me. and then maybe there are other ways that they can make money from artists, right? You know, I've certainly heard folks in the industry. Say, well, why can't they do more sort of monetize fandom and find way they know who all of the fans are for Pink Panthers or Ice Spice, or Beyonce, whoever it is, can they find like the most ardent a hundred thousand and find a way to sell them more stuff? [00:19:50] Dan Runcie: That last piece I think is key because they have better data than that on anyone. They flex it to us every year with Spotify rap. They tell me I'm in the 0.4% of an artist that I'm like, oh, I didn't even realize I was in that early of an artist, or I got one recently. I was in the first 10% of people to listen to Post Malone and, the 21 Savage song. And I'm like, okay, well you're giving me this data. How do we then use that And I feel like I've seen them float around a few ideas over the year. You remember back when Tencent was really starting to become more discussed in the west, and people were trying to see if Spotify was gonna get into karaoke or tipping or things like that to try to replicate that model. You have this little different ending outta the business. You have this data that tells you better than any other company who the top Uber fans are. Sure you're not in the business of ticketing to those largest fans. I know they've tried to do some ticketing on a smaller scale, but beyond raising the prices and raising the prices is still huge. I mean, Obviously you go from not $10 to $11, you just increase your top line revenue, 10% for your largest market. So that's huge. But yeah, what are those other ways to increase the pie? Because like 17, 18, 19, those years showed us if you increase the pie and everyone is just continuing to make money up to the right, we hear less of these complaints about people of China trade pennies, essentially. [00:21:09] Lucas Shaw: Well, I'll get that in a second. I actually think that pricing, like these places could raise prices by like $5 over the next few years, and they wouldn't suffer much. I think we've seen it in video. you'll churn a little bit, but you can raise prices with some degree of impunity as far, which would fundamentally change the business. I mean, as far as the fan interactions. I mean, look, there are people who have way more experience and expertise, than I do. Who could come up with the examples, but, you know, all the noise around NFTs, a year or two ago that was really, or the idea of web three, right? That was the idea of finding ways to monetize fandoms. We've seen it happen in Asia. We've seen it happen in certain parts of the creator economy in the US, there's no reason it can't work in the music business. YouTube has like eight or nine other forms of what it calls alter alternative monetization, whether it's selling subscriptions, which obviously Spotify already is, or like Super Chats or what, like all of these different things that you can do. And  there has to be some versions of that for music. Now, maybe that's not something that the top artists are gonna do because the incremental revenue just doesn't matter as much to them. But if you're, a lower or middle class artist who's like struggling to, to make money, or make enough like, those feel like no-brainers to me, people who'd be more likely to opt into that. and that can be, you know, opportunities to chat or like, take the idea of sort of fan meet and greets, but make it virtual. Take some of those things that happened during the pandemic and try to bring them into your, your daily life or if you wanna give people, like, let's say you're an artist on tour and you wanna give people like a sneak peek at your rehearsal. Like there're just so many ways to try to, honor and interact with your most art fans. [00:22:52] Dan Runcie: I agree. It also makes me think of vinyl as well, because half of the vinyls that are purchased, more than half people aren't even listening to, they're put up in the wall as decor, as merch, as ways to show their own self-expression and Spotify has the data that can infer who those people are that could be most likely to purchase that. So I think all of the things that you could have on the platform that could enable that I think are key. So, the pushback I've often heard, whether it's from people at Spotify or people that know the business well, is that they've been hesitant to do anything or add anything to the platform that isn't directly involved with You or I streaming a song. So whether that's interacting with fans or that's having other type of opportunities or experiences, if that doesn't involve you doing this direct revenue generating activity. They're hesitant to do it, I think that it could be a bit of forest missing the trees there, but that's the pushback I've often heard. [00:23:50] Lucas Shaw: But they have been more than happy to experiment with video like eight different times and have it fail every time. [00:23:56] Dan Runcie: True. True. I think back to the days where, they don't push it as much anymore, but like when Rap Caviar used to have the weekly videos and things like that, you used to see them push more into this, especially with some of the video exclusives for the podcasting. You just, you saw a lot of it, but you just haven't seen as much. [00:24:13] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. I don't know. I hear you. The pushback I've gotten when this has come up is like, most artists just won't do it. That it's hard enough to get them to like to show up on time or do all sorts of things in their daily life that they're not gonna wanna add a bunch of other things to their day to make a little extra money from fans. And while I think that's true, like I said, while I think that's true for the really big artists, I think it's less true for up and covers. And look, maybe there's not as much of a market, but I and social media content creators have, a fair amount in common. And there are certainly ways that Spotify can sort of learn from what YouTube's already doing. [00:24:48] Dan Runcie: Right, cuz if you're an artist that is native coming up, these are the folks that you wanna continue to attract and build. This is how they're natively growing, they're reaching into their fan bases and they're tapping into them. If they're not gonna do it on your platform, they're gonna do it on someone else's end. We've seen how YouTube's revenue has continued to grow and how it's become a much more meaningful player in music. So I do think that there's a broader opportunity there. The other thing that you mentioned, we talked a bit about pricing. One of the rubs I've heard about pricing itself is how the record labels and the streaming services would split that additional pie, or how they would split that additional incremental dollar that's there. Because as we know from a high level, Spotify's $1 coming in 30 cents of that dollar they keep internally for their own business, 70 cents of that dollar goes to all the various rights holders. But with that additional dollar, how do they then wanna split that? Spotify feels like they would be giving, doing the labels a favor by increasing that dollar that they add if they don't necessarily wanna just do that moving forward. They have these agreements in place. Spotify itself has advances that it's trying to recoup from a. Revenue perspective as well. So how that revenue perspec or how that recoupment looks like, especially if the model changes, but could be all of whack in a lot of ways. But from a pricing perspective, that's the rub there. So I think that we will see Spotify eventually raise that price. I think it'll probably be likely a dollar in the most developed markets, but that's the one rub I've heard Spotify. Wants something in return, and they probably feel more pressure to want something in return as opposed to Apple, Amazon, YouTube, since they, as you mentioned, sit under larger corporate entities. So music is more of a customer acquisition and brand play in a lot of ways, as opposed to Spotify trying to build a real business around audio. [00:26:40] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I mean, and I guess the reason that the streaming services would want to change the splits is just to improve their margin because I don't know, it feels like you could keep it the same and even though they would still have to pay out a lot of extra money, and it doesn't help them that much. Like there also is an issue of just sort of fixed costs that they have. So bringing in incremental revenue should still improve margins for music companies. It should, it won't improve them dramatically, excuse me, for streaming services, not music companies, but it will improve them. And so if Spotify can take its monthly price from $10 a month to 12 or $13 a month, it's gonna improve the business. Now, I hear you, maybe they wanna renegotiate it, but if I'm a music company, you set a precedent that on those extra dollars that all of a sudden the split goes down 5% and Spotify's gonna push that, push on that for the rest of it, for the next deal. [00:27:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think there's wiggle room there. And I think to that point, you mentioned earlier on pricing, we're right now talking about a dollar or $2 increases. I do think in the most developed markets, They have so much more pricing power. They have so much more runway, and I know that anything that is seen as a limit on growth, especially because all these services wanna continue to grow. They are hesitant to do anything like that. As you mentioned before, the markets that Spotify is growing in the most are markets where they cannot charge $10 or even $5 a month for regular service. But in the developed markets, I think it could be 15, I even think you could go up to 20. And for some of these areas, like we talked about video, and I do know that audio and video are different in a lot of ways, but because of the nature of the listening experiences and because I think people are probably more likely to pay for fewer audio experiences because it is passive as opposed to video being active. I do think that you could get away with commanding a higher price, and that's how, even if they charge a price, that's more in line with what Netflix now charges. A lot of these challenges as we keep going back to, wouldn't come up nearly as much because of how much more money the business is making. Yeah, if raise the prices to 15 bucks, fundamentally different business in so many ways. [00:28:54] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I went to a store yesterday to, or two days ago, and I just bought a bottle of sparkling water at a 7-Eleven, and it was like $3 and 30 cents. That used to be like a dollar 50 a do. I mean, Spotify's, and music streaming more broadly is one of the only industries that doesn't seem to have taken part in, inflation over the last many years. [00:29:14] Dan Runcie: It's wild. It really is wild. What do you currently pay? Do you use Spotify or do you use a different service? [00:29:20] Lucas Shaw: I use the Spotify family plan [00:29:23] Dan Runcie: Okay. All right. Same here. Yeah, my wife and I are on a plan, and I think we split that. It's like $13 a month, so yeah, I'm well below that. And it sounds like you're pretty well below that too. And you know, for us as power users compared to how much we probably spend on video, I mean probably at least five, 10 times that. [00:29:41] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I probably spend it at least 80 to $90 on video every month across everything [00:29:47] Dan Runcie: I also imagine the nature of your job. You have to stay tapped in. It can't be like, oh, I don't know what's happening with this series or platform. I don't have a subscription, you kind of have to be tapped into all of 'em. [00:29:57] Lucas Shaw: there are one or two services that I don't per manently pay for but I do pay for most of the big ones. [00:30:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. I mean, like we said, I think that I'd be surprised if we see any big movements here. But before we go down the road too far, let's just fast forward to where are we summer 2024. So a year from now. Are we still having the same debates has Universal been able to make any progress? Is Spotify priced any differently? And we could take each of those one by one, but where do you think we are with things a year from now? [00:30:32] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I think prices for all the streaming services will have gone up. Like  [00:30:35] Dan Runcie: a dollar, $2 or, [00:30:37] Lucas Shaw: I'd say one or $2, probably not more dramatic than that. but I'd say one or $2. And I think that, music companies will have gotten some of the other independents to like agree to test and experiment with different models, but there won't be some new. Model that has replaced the current one. [00:30:59] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And then do you think that we make any movement on multipliers or duration or any of those proposed changes? [00:31:07] Lucas Shaw: I think that similarly, like people test it out, but nothing becomes the new common standard in that time period. [00:31:12] Dan Runcie: Right. And then big picture as well. I still do think that the underlying crux of this is that platforms are two different incentives, and I think if the record labels do see themselves as having the major record labels, to see themselves as having this HBO level content. If you are taking a step back, the best way to solve that is having your own service, having your own platform. I think that could solve a lot of things, but I could never, I just don't see that happening. Do you think that could ever happen? [00:31:41] Lucas Shaw: An artist with their  [00:31:42] Dan Runcie: service. Oh no, not an artist with their own service, but let's say whether it was either [00:31:45] Lucas Shaw: A music company.  [00:31:46] Dan Runcie: One of the music companies or if the majors came together and was just like, okay, this is our conglomerate major label plus service. [00:31:55] Lucas Shaw: No, they missed their moment. If they wanted to do that, they should have done it 10 or 15 years ago. [00:31:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it reminds me when was it in the early two thousands? Do you remember Press play, that was one of the UMG  [00:32:06] Lucas Shaw: Vaguely.  [00:32:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I mean, I feel like a lot has changed since then. So there were a few failed attempts, but yeah, I think they missed the moment. They missed the moment on that but Lucas, good stuff. This was fun. Well, maybe we'll have to check back in, in case there's any more movement here. But, for the people that are listening and wanna stay tapped in with you, what do you got coming up? [00:32:25] Lucas Shaw: What do I have coming up? I send out a newsletter every Sunday called Screen Time, about business of pop culture, film, tv, music, podcasting, and a bunch of stories that I can't really talk about. And then we have the screen time conference in the fall. [00:32:39] Dan Runcie: So yeah, tell us what's the deal with the Stream Time conference? [00:32:42] Lucas Shaw: it'll be, you know, an event in Los Angeles, day and a half devoted to the business of pop culture, which is sort of what I cover and what my team covers. We'll have some of the bus biggest executives across, film, tv, music, gaming, podcasting, social media, onstage, I'll interview them, or one of my colleagues that's gonna be, you know, we have the CEO of Netflix, the CEO of Endeavor, the one of the people who runs CAA, the person who runs gaming at Microsoft. Issa Ray, Bill Simmons, the person who runs the Universal Film Studio, likely with a filmmaker, two or three other people we booked that I can't talk about just yet. And I think, you know, if you're interested in, if you're interested in the business of culture, you should buy a ticket. It is expensive. Get your company to pay for it. But it's gonna be an awesome event. I feel like, you know, there obviously are a lot of conferences, but I think ours will be unique in its marriage of business and culture. The way my team, covers things is we sort of bring together a lot of different industries that are typically seen as separate and also it'll be global. Like we have already won. And probably one more, international speakers coming, that, one of which is in music that I think people will be pretty excited [00:33:50] Dan Runcie: Awesome. Good stuff. Thanks, Lucas. Been a pleasure. [00:33:54] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. Thanks Dan. [00:33:55] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trap continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 23 Jun 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Why Music Streaming Can’t Agree on a Payout Model (with Lucas Shaw) full Dan Runcie Music streaming’s payout model is under a microscope. The industry’s stakeholders — the labels, DSPs, artists, and rights holders — all want more of the pie, but no one can agree on how. Should we stick with the pro-rata model that pools all streams together? Or move to the user-centric model that some DSPs have tested out? Should longer songs count more than a 30-second audio track? What if that artist you choose to start your music session with gets paid more than an algorithmic play? How can we stop the fraud? Would all these problems get solved if prices increased?.  These questions are all up for debate. As growth slows down, everyone wants more of the pie.  To discuss, I’m joined by Bloomberg’s Lucas Shaw to break it all down. Here’s everything we discussed:  [0:42] How this debate started [6:59] Proposed multiplier model [10:43] Pro-rata vs. fan-centric models [13:54] Factoring streaming duration without fraud [17:38] Will big players budge? [19:22] Monetizing fandom [27:21] What if Spotify raises its prices? [29:48] 2024 predictions  [32:11] Bloomberg’s Screentime conference Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Lucas Shaw, @Lucas_Shaw This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Lucas Shaw: The artist are one constituency, and the record labels or another, the artist could say, well, we might be happier if the record labels gave us a bigger share. And so, the best way, again, to keep all of those constituencies happy is to just grow the pie instead of reallocating and trying to sort of tilt it towards the big player. [00:00:29] Dan Runcie Intro Audio: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:55] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is all about streaming. It's the platform that saved the music industry, and lately it's been the platform that has sparked countless debates on how best to compensate rights holders, the artists, and the underlying companies that provide these services. This has been a polarizing topic ever since the beginning of streaming, but these topics have intensified recently for a few reasons. First, growth is starting to slow down. We're no longer in the 2017, 20 18, 20 19. Fast growth rate of streaming. Growth is starting to slow, and whenever the pockets tighten up, people get more concerned about how that current pot of money is split. Second, two of the biggest major record labels, universal and Warner, have went public in recent years, and there's more pressure, especially from those new shareholders. That wanna see returns for the big investments that they made. So how does this all shape the broader questions around how big the pie is, how the pie gets split, and what are the best ways to increase that pie? So join me in this discussion. I'm joined by Lucas Shaw from Bloomberg. He also is a frequent guest on the Town with Matt Bellamy, highly recommend that podcast if you haven't yet. And on today's episode, Lucas and I break it all down, all the facets, all the interests of the various stakeholders. It would make a few predictions in how we think this whole dynamic, this whole debate, how we think it plays out. Here's the episode. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:16] Dan Runcie: All right. We have Lucas Shaw here with us from Bloomberg. First time on the pod, welcome. [00:02:21] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. Thanks for having me. Excited to chat. [00:02:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. This is a topic I know you've written about. It's something I've been thinking a lot about. I feel like for years now, the debates around music streaming, model payouts have been going on for a while. Things definitely intensified the beginning of this year, and we're seeing more comments, more partnerships, but still not much movement. But every time I see this, I feel like I just always gravitate back towards. The record labels and the streaming services have two different incentives on what growth looks like, what success looks like, and I feel like that's the underlying problem towards, with so much of this. What's your take on it? [00:02:59] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I mean, it's funny for a while there Well, when YouTube first came around and Spotify and streaming, there was all this tension between music companies and streaming services because music companies felt like tech companies had sort of killed their business, and blamed them for a lot of their problems. And were always complaining about royalties and all that. And then I would actually say for the last five years there's been relative like calm and happiness because music industry revenues have been going up. All the record labels are doing pretty well. The streaming services continue to grow. And now we've hit this another inflection point where the current model, which has again, worked great for basically a decade, has started to slow, you know, the record labels revenue isn't growing as quickly as it has been. And the streaming services though, they're still growing. they're growing at a lot of places like India, Southeast Asia, where the average person's not paying that much, so the revenue doesn't quite compare. And so, hence why we have now a lot of noise over the last six to nine months around, you know, a new model, quote unquote, for music streaming. Mind you, SoundCloud has been proposing a new model for a long time and most of the majors just like didn't buy into it, and we can get into it. And I think to some extent that's you talking about the different priorities. and the labels are talking about like their own version of SoundCloud's is fan powered royalties. The labels wanna talk about artist centric, but they've provided almost no detail as to what they want this new model to be. but I don't know, maybe you can design it for them. [00:04:36] Dan Runcie: I think you highlighted the inflection point, which is part of this issue. We saw so much growth. Growth is now starting to slow down, and I think growth is also slowing down in this post IPO era of the major record labels you have UMG goes public summer 2021. Warner goes public the summer before that. And those stocks have been down since those IPOs or since, since they went public. I think Warner's is down at least 16%, or Warner's is down around 11%. UMG is down at least 16%. And you have all these other actors like Bill Ackman and others getting involved in, they praised UMG so much when this deal happened. They wanna see a return on that. So I think a lot of the pressure is coming into. All of the things we're hearing, whether it's how much to charge for streaming, how much. How that actual price is being charged, how it should be distributed. And to your point, as you mentioned SoundCloud, we've heard a few things from Title, Deezer, others have been testing out new models. I think part of the challenge there though, is those models in a lot of ways have been pushed as ways to increase revenue opportunities for the independent artists and the artists that are using those platforms. Cuz I think that's one of the big takeaways from these user-centric fan power royalties. They can't add a bit of a boost to the indie artists, especially if you have a user that really likes them, but they haven't necessarily been as favorable to the biggest artists in the world. And those are the artists that the major record labels want any type of change to ultimately benefit. [00:06:10] Lucas Shaw: Yes, cuz we all know that Taylor Swift and Drake and the weekend are really hurting and they need the extra two or $3 million from Spotify. yeah, I mean that's sort of the nut of the disagreement, right? Is that the major labels want their artists, the professionals, the Crème de la crème to get more and more and more than some dude making ambient noise in his basement or like a young Dua Lipa wannabe, or, I don't know, something amateurs [00:06:36] Dan Runcie: Rain music is the thing that I kept hearing. Rain music and whale music. [00:06:41] Lucas Shaw: But, you know, I don't know, it's like distinguishing between different levels of stream, right? And, one of the issues for me, I guess is YouTube and other services have sort of eliminated the distinction between amateur and professional, you know, like any amateur is basically a viral video away from being a professional if they want be. And so I think it gets very tricky to try to charge different prices or deliver different royalties for different people. Not to say that there's not some innovation to be had in the model. I'm just not sure that's it. [00:07:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think YouTube's a good place to start with this cuz there's a few models that we can break into. There's a few proposed changes that are structured in here. YouTube is actually where Warner Music group's current CEO, Robert Kinsel, he used to be chief business Officer over there. And one of the things that he was really pushing over there was this project called Project Bean. And it was a multiplier approach where the thought is if you start your listening session, or in YouTube's case, if you start your viewing session with a particular artist or creator, then that person should be compensated more for the duration of what they lead to and the fact that you might be searching for them as opposed to an algorithmically-led play stream, listen, whatever it is. And he's ultimately pushing for a similar thing war, with, the streaming services. Now, I believe it was at a Morgan Stanley call or conference where he had said, if you start your music session with Lizzo, then Lizzo should be paid more. For that, and I think that's an element of trying to separate the weed from the shaft. They're trying to focus in on what they consider to be their creme de la creme. To your point, I don't think Lizzo is necessarily heard and she just went on a huge arena tour, but that's ultimately what they want, I think that does highlight how not all streams are weighted the same, but it's still a zero sum game. So if you are going to be providing more through this revenue multiplier opportunity, you're potentially still taking away from others. [00:08:42] Lucas Shaw: See to me that's the issue is that they're sort of talking about ways to divide the pie differently. Instead of talking about ways to grow the pie, now they're talking about both, but I think it's more important and likely more fruitful going forward to try to talk about ways to grow the pie. It's also, I would add an interesting way for music companies to deflect from their own accounting, you know, for years, music companies got mad at streaming services because they said that they didn't pay artists enough and they like got all the artists, or at least a lot of them fairly riled up in saying, you know, oh, like Spotify pays me, you know, a third of ascent for every stream. And that's not fair. But the pie grew by a lot every year. And one of the thing, and so the music companies is partially also cuz they went public, as you noted, like stop attacking the streaming services. But there's one thing that's always been true, which is that the record companies and the music publishers decide, how a lot of that money is allocated, right? It's Lucien Grange head of Universal Music Group who helps decide that the record labels get more than the publishers, the songwriters, because they make generally have better splits. With the record labels. Now they'd push back on that and say that that's not true. I'm just, that's one version of how this plays out. The other thing is that, again, then in those deals, like the record, labels keep a lot of that royalty money. So you could argue there's sort of the artist are one constituency, and the record labels or another, the artist could say, well, we might be happier if the record labels gave us a bigger share. And so the best way, again, to keep all of those constituencies happy is to just grow the pie instead of reallocating and trying to sort of tilt it towards the big player. [00:10:29] Dan Runcie: Which is why we didn't hear as many complaints about this in 2017, 18, 19, when growth was just up and to the right. Everyone was making more. More so there was less pressure on this particular issue itself. [00:10:41] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. And because I think to what you said, like a lot of these companies are starting to think about two of the three major music companies are starting to think about going public. And then you don't wanna, you know, you don't wanna freak people out. Stability is good when you have public markets. [00:10:56] Dan Runcie: Right, and that's the other challenge that we often hear. So one of the broader underlying debates that we've been hearing about is whether you keep the current model pro rata. Which pools all of the streams and then that then gets paid out to the rights holders depending on their share of those streams. And then that is a percentage of the overall revenue that comes in, both for subscription and then for ad support. And then of course, on the user-centric side, it shifts to the per user perspective, and that's where things can get so wild and hairy. Because if I don't log into Spotify for a month and I only listen to one artist versus. Three artists that I love come out the next month. They're still all splitting that same $10 a month, and that happens for everyone. So it makes the revenue less predictable and all of these things, granted those are extreme cases, but if you look at that on a magnitude level, it could lead to much more variability that publicly traded companies don't generally like. [00:11:54] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. what do you make of the fan centric model? [00:11:58] Dan Runcie: I do think that if we were starting from scratch, I think that's the better way to go about it because I think we're now looking at fan centric in this lens of how it disrupts the current model. I do think that if we started looking at things from, okay, how do you monetize that particular user? It centers everyone a bit more on the focus of, okay, how do we end up getting that sole user to stay on the service, to wanna stay committed, to make sure that we're offering things that they want? And I do think that there's gamification that happen on both sides, but I think from a net positive perspective, I do think that that is the one that generally leads to the more fair outcomes. I still think there's plenty of issues with it, but that's if we were starting from scratch, that's what I would say. It's just tough now because we're now a decade and a half in. [00:12:50] Lucas Shaw: And is there a version or are there other, tweaks to the model that you think have a chance of being widely adopted? Yeah,  [00:12:57] Dan Runcie: there's a few things. So I think one of the things we haven't talked about a lot is duration, because that's a whole nother aspect of this debate. So right now the streaming services, don't clock a stream until it has at least 30 seconds of a particular song. So whether you have a 31 second sleep track that is just added to Spotify, or you have Bohemian Rhapsody, each of those songs is essentially, counts the same. I think that there should be something in place that compensates you listening to that longer song more than that, I do think though, that the challenges, you're still taking away from that. But in generally speaking, the songs that are 31 seconds mostly aren't necessarily to the same degree, quality, whatever it is, of a song that would be, you know, that 3, 4, 5 plus minute range. [00:13:53] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. Although couldn't that, also benefit if people would, could, wouldn't people just start uploading like 45 second, or excuse me, 45 minute sleep tracks and they could manipulate it that way. I mean, that gets into the other issue that obviously comes up a lot, and has become sort of a, big topic over the last year in particular is the idea of fraud. Which I see, I mean, a certain amount of that is, just always gonna happen. but is if you really wanted to discriminate against a particular genre or a particular type of listening, that would be the big one. if you buy into these estimates that like 10% of music listening it's fraud, you know that's billions of dollars that are going to people who maybe don't deserve it. [00:14:31] Dan Runcie: Right, and that's definitely one of the cons there. I think about the thing is, one of the things I started to accept was there's always gonna be some level of fraud or issue with it. Because I was thinking about the flip side. Let's say that we went to this user-centric model, and let's say that Spotify, apple, Amazon, all of them were on board. What would fraud look like from that perspectivea and the place I led to is the streaming farms would look less like these places that just have endless songs just playing on repeat. But it would be more like having, whether it's fraudulent users or bots or other people just signing into a service, playing one stream from one saw or one artist, or setting up an account and then going from there. And it made me think back to the CD or even the tape era where artists and their own record labels would go buy their own albums and things like that. And granted, maybe not necessarily fraud because it's just, you know, one distributor going further down and buying directly from the retailer. But there's always some type of issue there. And to your point as well, it could also just lead to 45 second tracks or endless tracks to game the duration day long playlist. So there's potential issues either way. Cause I think even with the current model, granted, we haven't necessarily talked about streaming itself in some of the gamification that happens there, but all of these longer albums, shorter releases, music has always adapted to its business model regardless, and I think this is another aspect of this, and that could likely happen again if things ever shifted to a more user-centric approach. [00:16:03] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, we just need more people to pull a tiara whack and release a 15 minute album. [00:16:08] Dan Runcie: I know. [00:16:08] Lucas Shaw: Works for our short. [00:16:11] Dan Runcie: I feel like Spice is kind of an interesting example of this. I feel like all of the songs on her most recent mixtape are, I don't think any of them are longer than three minutes. They're all within two or maybe even a minute and change. So she's another one that probably lines up here. What do you think, how do you think this actually plays out though? Because that's the piece that I've been thinking a lot about because. Since the beginning of the year, Lucian had his letter that he put out that called for a change. We've seen Kinsel and others speak about this, and Universal has also partnered with SoundCloud. They partnered with Deezer, they partnered with title for a new model. We've seen these announcements come, we've seen these partnerships happen, but we haven't exactly seen new developments since then. And I still have to imagine that it's gonna take a lot for Spotify or Apple or Amazon, especially the bigger ones to wanna play. So part of me is skeptical on whether these changes will happen in the same way, because I think that the labels just feel a bit of pressure where. Then their shareholders and others wanna be able to continue to grow, especially post IPO. They don't have the same leverage, let's say in video where you could easily pull your content. They rely on Spotify and Apple and Amazon way too much. So they're kind of squeezed here and they're trying to do it through public advocacy. They're trying to partner with smaller DSPs that have their own different incentives to support independent artists. So, and they don't necessarily have the technology themselves to go launch their own service to go do a Disney plus type of thing. And I know audio and video are just so different in that way, so I'm a bit skeptical. But what's your take? How do you see this playing out? [00:17:51] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I mean, I share your skepticism. Until a major music company can point to an arrangement with one of those smaller independents, the Deezers, the titles of SoundClouds, and say, we've figured this out and this is why it's better for us. I don't think they're gonna have any success convincing the bigger players. And if you look at, excuse me, if you look at the priorities of Apple, Amazon, YouTube, and Spotify, sort of the, the big four, apple, Amazon, and YouTube, on the one hand could be persuaded because, you know, they don't have a lot to lose there. But, they don't have a lot of reason, like they're not relying on their music services to make a ton of money, to make them profitable. I mean, there are all these companies are under pressure to improve their financials, but it's not clear how, like reforming the model to benefit major labels and or artists in any way benefits them. If anything, most of these companies have wanted to reduce the power of major labels because them have them having a lot of leverage makes their negotiations more complicated. You look at a Spotify, they would like the major labels to have less of a say because it gives them a better chance in the long run of trying to improve their margins and reduce their payouts to rights holders. I think it's more likely that they look for ways to grow the overall pie, because that's what would most benefit them. which is why I think, you know, we've already seen Apple and Amazon raise prices. It's inevitable to me that Spotify is gonna raise prices. they're already, they're now trotting out or about to release A higher priced, high quality, service. I don't think those really matter, but raising prices on the base service to me is just such a no-brainer. I mean, the idea that that Spotify still costs $10 a month is insane to me. and then maybe there are other ways that they can make money from artists, right? You know, I've certainly heard folks in the industry. Say, well, why can't they do more sort of monetize fandom and find way they know who all of the fans are for Pink Panthers or Ice Spice, or Beyonce, whoever it is, can they find like the most ardent a hundred thousand and find a way to sell them more stuff? [00:19:50] Dan Runcie: That last piece I think is key because they have better data than that on anyone. They flex it to us every year with Spotify rap. They tell me I'm in the 0.4% of an artist that I'm like, oh, I didn't even realize I was in that early of an artist, or I got one recently. I was in the first 10% of people to listen to Post Malone and, the 21 Savage song. And I'm like, okay, well you're giving me this data. How do we then use that And I feel like I've seen them float around a few ideas over the year. You remember back when Tencent was really starting to become more discussed in the west, and people were trying to see if Spotify was gonna get into karaoke or tipping or things like that to try to replicate that model. You have this little different ending outta the business. You have this data that tells you better than any other company who the top Uber fans are. Sure you're not in the business of ticketing to those largest fans. I know they've tried to do some ticketing on a smaller scale, but beyond raising the prices and raising the prices is still huge. I mean, Obviously you go from not $10 to $11, you just increase your top line revenue, 10% for your largest market. So that's huge. But yeah, what are those other ways to increase the pie? Because like 17, 18, 19, those years showed us if you increase the pie and everyone is just continuing to make money up to the right, we hear less of these complaints about people of China trade pennies, essentially. [00:21:09] Lucas Shaw: Well, I'll get that in a second. I actually think that pricing, like these places could raise prices by like $5 over the next few years, and they wouldn't suffer much. I think we've seen it in video. you'll churn a little bit, but you can raise prices with some degree of impunity as far, which would fundamentally change the business. I mean, as far as the fan interactions. I mean, look, there are people who have way more experience and expertise, than I do. Who could come up with the examples, but, you know, all the noise around NFTs, a year or two ago that was really, or the idea of web three, right? That was the idea of finding ways to monetize fandoms. We've seen it happen in Asia. We've seen it happen in certain parts of the creator economy in the US, there's no reason it can't work in the music business. YouTube has like eight or nine other forms of what it calls alter alternative monetization, whether it's selling subscriptions, which obviously Spotify already is, or like Super Chats or what, like all of these different things that you can do. And  there has to be some versions of that for music. Now, maybe that's not something that the top artists are gonna do because the incremental revenue just doesn't matter as much to them. But if you're, a lower or middle class artist who's like struggling to, to make money, or make enough like, those feel like no-brainers to me, people who'd be more likely to opt into that. and that can be, you know, opportunities to chat or like, take the idea of sort of fan meet and greets, but make it virtual. Take some of those things that happened during the pandemic and try to bring them into your, your daily life or if you wanna give people, like, let's say you're an artist on tour and you wanna give people like a sneak peek at your rehearsal. Like there're just so many ways to try to, honor and interact with your most art fans. [00:22:52] Dan Runcie: I agree. It also makes me think of vinyl as well, because half of the vinyls that are purchased, more than half people aren't even listening to, they're put up in the wall as decor, as merch, as ways to show their own self-expression and Spotify has the data that can infer who those people are that could be most likely to purchase that. So I think all of the things that you could have on the platform that could enable that I think are key. So, the pushback I've often heard, whether it's from people at Spotify or people that know the business well, is that they've been hesitant to do anything or add anything to the platform that isn't directly involved with You or I streaming a song. So whether that's interacting with fans or that's having other type of opportunities or experiences, if that doesn't involve you doing this direct revenue generating activity. They're hesitant to do it, I think that it could be a bit of forest missing the trees there, but that's the pushback I've often heard. [00:23:50] Lucas Shaw: But they have been more than happy to experiment with video like eight different times and have it fail every time. [00:23:56] Dan Runcie: True. True. I think back to the days where, they don't push it as much anymore, but like when Rap Caviar used to have the weekly videos and things like that, you used to see them push more into this, especially with some of the video exclusives for the podcasting. You just, you saw a lot of it, but you just haven't seen as much. [00:24:13] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. I don't know. I hear you. The pushback I've gotten when this has come up is like, most artists just won't do it. That it's hard enough to get them to like to show up on time or do all sorts of things in their daily life that they're not gonna wanna add a bunch of other things to their day to make a little extra money from fans. And while I think that's true, like I said, while I think that's true for the really big artists, I think it's less true for up and covers. And look, maybe there's not as much of a market, but I and social media content creators have, a fair amount in common. And there are certainly ways that Spotify can sort of learn from what YouTube's already doing. [00:24:48] Dan Runcie: Right, cuz if you're an artist that is native coming up, these are the folks that you wanna continue to attract and build. This is how they're natively growing, they're reaching into their fan bases and they're tapping into them. If they're not gonna do it on your platform, they're gonna do it on someone else's end. We've seen how YouTube's revenue has continued to grow and how it's become a much more meaningful player in music. So I do think that there's a broader opportunity there. The other thing that you mentioned, we talked a bit about pricing. One of the rubs I've heard about pricing itself is how the record labels and the streaming services would split that additional pie, or how they would split that additional incremental dollar that's there. Because as we know from a high level, Spotify's $1 coming in 30 cents of that dollar they keep internally for their own business, 70 cents of that dollar goes to all the various rights holders. But with that additional dollar, how do they then wanna split that? Spotify feels like they would be giving, doing the labels a favor by increasing that dollar that they add if they don't necessarily wanna just do that moving forward. They have these agreements in place. Spotify itself has advances that it's trying to recoup from a. Revenue perspective as well. So how that revenue perspec or how that recoupment looks like, especially if the model changes, but could be all of whack in a lot of ways. But from a pricing perspective, that's the rub there. So I think that we will see Spotify eventually raise that price. I think it'll probably be likely a dollar in the most developed markets, but that's the one rub I've heard Spotify. Wants something in return, and they probably feel more pressure to want something in return as opposed to Apple, Amazon, YouTube, since they, as you mentioned, sit under larger corporate entities. So music is more of a customer acquisition and brand play in a lot of ways, as opposed to Spotify trying to build a real business around audio. [00:26:40] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I mean, and I guess the reason that the streaming services would want to change the splits is just to improve their margin because I don't know, it feels like you could keep it the same and even though they would still have to pay out a lot of extra money, and it doesn't help them that much. Like there also is an issue of just sort of fixed costs that they have. So bringing in incremental revenue should still improve margins for music companies. It should, it won't improve them dramatically, excuse me, for streaming services, not music companies, but it will improve them. And so if Spotify can take its monthly price from $10 a month to 12 or $13 a month, it's gonna improve the business. Now, I hear you, maybe they wanna renegotiate it, but if I'm a music company, you set a precedent that on those extra dollars that all of a sudden the split goes down 5% and Spotify's gonna push that, push on that for the rest of it, for the next deal. [00:27:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think there's wiggle room there. And I think to that point, you mentioned earlier on pricing, we're right now talking about a dollar or $2 increases. I do think in the most developed markets, They have so much more pricing power. They have so much more runway, and I know that anything that is seen as a limit on growth, especially because all these services wanna continue to grow. They are hesitant to do anything like that. As you mentioned before, the markets that Spotify is growing in the most are markets where they cannot charge $10 or even $5 a month for regular service. But in the developed markets, I think it could be 15, I even think you could go up to 20. And for some of these areas, like we talked about video, and I do know that audio and video are different in a lot of ways, but because of the nature of the listening experiences and because I think people are probably more likely to pay for fewer audio experiences because it is passive as opposed to video being active. I do think that you could get away with commanding a higher price, and that's how, even if they charge a price, that's more in line with what Netflix now charges. A lot of these challenges as we keep going back to, wouldn't come up nearly as much because of how much more money the business is making. Yeah, if raise the prices to 15 bucks, fundamentally different business in so many ways. [00:28:54] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I went to a store yesterday to, or two days ago, and I just bought a bottle of sparkling water at a 7-Eleven, and it was like $3 and 30 cents. That used to be like a dollar 50 a do. I mean, Spotify's, and music streaming more broadly is one of the only industries that doesn't seem to have taken part in, inflation over the last many years. [00:29:14] Dan Runcie: It's wild. It really is wild. What do you currently pay? Do you use Spotify or do you use a different service? [00:29:20] Lucas Shaw: I use the Spotify family plan [00:29:23] Dan Runcie: Okay. All right. Same here. Yeah, my wife and I are on a plan, and I think we split that. It's like $13 a month, so yeah, I'm well below that. And it sounds like you're pretty well below that too. And you know, for us as power users compared to how much we probably spend on video, I mean probably at least five, 10 times that. [00:29:41] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I probably spend it at least 80 to $90 on video every month across everything [00:29:47] Dan Runcie: I also imagine the nature of your job. You have to stay tapped in. It can't be like, oh, I don't know what's happening with this series or platform. I don't have a subscription, you kind of have to be tapped into all of 'em. [00:29:57] Lucas Shaw: there are one or two services that I don't per manently pay for but I do pay for most of the big ones. [00:30:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. I mean, like we said, I think that I'd be surprised if we see any big movements here. But before we go down the road too far, let's just fast forward to where are we summer 2024. So a year from now. Are we still having the same debates has Universal been able to make any progress? Is Spotify priced any differently? And we could take each of those one by one, but where do you think we are with things a year from now? [00:30:32] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I think prices for all the streaming services will have gone up. Like  [00:30:35] Dan Runcie: a dollar, $2 or, [00:30:37] Lucas Shaw: I'd say one or $2, probably not more dramatic than that. but I'd say one or $2. And I think that, music companies will have gotten some of the other independents to like agree to test and experiment with different models, but there won't be some new. Model that has replaced the current one. [00:30:59] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And then do you think that we make any movement on multipliers or duration or any of those proposed changes? [00:31:07] Lucas Shaw: I think that similarly, like people test it out, but nothing becomes the new common standard in that time period. [00:31:12] Dan Runcie: Right. And then big picture as well. I still do think that the underlying crux of this is that platforms are two different incentives, and I think if the record labels do see themselves as having the major record labels, to see themselves as having this HBO level content. If you are taking a step back, the best way to solve that is having your own service, having your own platform. I think that could solve a lot of things, but I could never, I just don't see that happening. Do you think that could ever happen? [00:31:41] Lucas Shaw: An artist with their  [00:31:42] Dan Runcie: service. Oh no, not an artist with their own service, but let's say whether it was either [00:31:45] Lucas Shaw: A music company.  [00:31:46] Dan Runcie: One of the music companies or if the majors came together and was just like, okay, this is our conglomerate major label plus service. [00:31:55] Lucas Shaw: No, they missed their moment. If they wanted to do that, they should have done it 10 or 15 years ago. [00:31:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it reminds me when was it in the early two thousands? Do you remember Press play, that was one of the UMG  [00:32:06] Lucas Shaw: Vaguely.  [00:32:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I mean, I feel like a lot has changed since then. So there were a few failed attempts, but yeah, I think they missed the moment. They missed the moment on that but Lucas, good stuff. This was fun. Well, maybe we'll have to check back in, in case there's any more movement here. But, for the people that are listening and wanna stay tapped in with you, what do you got coming up? [00:32:25] Lucas Shaw: What do I have coming up? I send out a newsletter every Sunday called Screen Time, about business of pop culture, film, tv, music, podcasting, and a bunch of stories that I can't really talk about. And then we have the screen time conference in the fall. [00:32:39] Dan Runcie: So yeah, tell us what's the deal with the Stream Time conference? [00:32:42] Lucas Shaw: it'll be, you know, an event in Los Angeles, day and a half devoted to the business of pop culture, which is sort of what I cover and what my team covers. We'll have some of the bus biggest executives across, film, tv, music, gaming, podcasting, social media, onstage, I'll interview them, or one of my colleagues that's gonna be, you know, we have the CEO of Netflix, the CEO of Endeavor, the one of the people who runs CAA, the person who runs gaming at Microsoft. Issa Ray, Bill Simmons, the person who runs the Universal Film Studio, likely with a filmmaker, two or three other people we booked that I can't talk about just yet. And I think, you know, if you're interested in, if you're interested in the business of culture, you should buy a ticket. It is expensive. Get your company to pay for it. But it's gonna be an awesome event. I feel like, you know, there obviously are a lot of conferences, but I think ours will be unique in its marriage of business and culture. The way my team, covers things is we sort of bring together a lot of different industries that are typically seen as separate and also it'll be global. Like we have already won. And probably one more, international speakers coming, that, one of which is in music that I think people will be pretty excited [00:33:50] Dan Runcie: Awesome. Good stuff. Thanks, Lucas. Been a pleasure. [00:33:54] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. Thanks Dan. [00:33:55] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trap continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Music streaming’s payout model is under a microscope. The industry’s stakeholders — the labels, DSPs, artists, and rights holders — all want more of the pie, but no one can agree on how.


Should we stick with the pro-rata model that pools all streams together? Or move to the user-centric model that some DSPs have tested out? Should longer songs count more than a 30-second audio track? What if that artist you choose to start your music session with gets paid more than an algorithmic play? How can we stop the fraud? Would all these problems get solved if prices increased?. 


These questions are all up for debate. As growth slows down, everyone wants more of the pie. 


To discuss, I’m joined by Bloomberg’s Lucas Shaw to break it all down. Here’s everything we discussed: 

[0:42] How this debate started

[6:59] Proposed multiplier model

[10:43] Pro-rata vs. fan-centric models

[13:54] Factoring streaming duration without fraud

[17:38] Will big players budge?

[19:22] Monetizing fandom

[27:21] What if Spotify raises its prices?

[29:48] 2024 predictions 

[32:11] Bloomberg’s Screentime conference


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Lucas Shaw, @Lucas_Shaw

This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.


TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Lucas Shaw: The artist are one constituency, and the record labels or another, the artist could say, well, we might be happier if the record labels gave us a bigger share. And so, the best way, again, to keep all of those constituencies happy is to just grow the pie instead of reallocating and trying to sort of tilt it towards the big player.

[00:00:29] Dan Runcie Intro Audio: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:55] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is all about streaming. It's the platform that saved the music industry, and lately it's been the platform that has sparked countless debates on how best to compensate rights holders, the artists, and the underlying companies that provide these services. This has been a polarizing topic ever since the beginning of streaming, but these topics have intensified recently for a few reasons.

First, growth is starting to slow down. We're no longer in the 2017, 20 18, 20 19. Fast growth rate of streaming. Growth is starting to slow, and whenever the pockets tighten up, people get more concerned about how that current pot of money is split. Second, two of the biggest major record labels, universal and Warner, have went public in recent years, and there's more pressure, especially from those new shareholders.

That wanna see returns for the big investments that they made. So how does this all shape the broader questions around how big the pie is, how the pie gets split, and what are the best ways to increase that pie? So join me in this discussion. I'm joined by Lucas Shaw from Bloomberg. He also is a frequent guest on the Town with Matt Bellamy, highly recommend that podcast if you haven't yet. And on today's episode, Lucas and I break it all down, all the facets, all the interests of the various stakeholders. It would make a few predictions in how we think this whole dynamic, this whole debate, how we think it plays out. Here's the episode. Hope you enjoy it.

[00:02:16] Dan Runcie: All right. We have Lucas Shaw here with us from Bloomberg. First time on the pod, welcome.

[00:02:21] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. Thanks for having me. Excited to chat.

[00:02:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. This is a topic I know you've written about. It's something I've been thinking a lot about. I feel like for years now, the debates around music streaming, model payouts have been going on for a while. Things definitely intensified the beginning of this year, and we're seeing more comments, more partnerships, but still not much movement.

But every time I see this, I feel like I just always gravitate back towards. The record labels and the streaming services have two different incentives on what growth looks like, what success looks like, and I feel like that's the underlying problem towards, with so much of this. What's your take on it?

[00:02:59] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I mean, it's funny for a while there Well, when YouTube first came around and Spotify and streaming, there was all this tension between music companies and streaming services because music companies felt like tech companies had sort of killed their business, and blamed them for a lot of their problems.

And were always complaining about royalties and all that. And then I would actually say for the last five years there's been relative like calm and happiness because music industry revenues have been going up. All the record labels are doing pretty well. The streaming services continue to grow. And now we've hit this another inflection point where the current model, which has again, worked great for basically a decade, has started to slow, you know, the record labels revenue isn't growing as quickly as it has been. And the streaming services though, they're still growing. they're growing at a lot of places like India, Southeast Asia, where the average person's not paying that much, so the revenue doesn't quite compare. And so, hence why we have now a lot of noise over the last six to nine months around, you know, a new model, quote unquote, for music streaming. Mind you, SoundCloud has been proposing a new model for a long time and most of the majors just like didn't buy into it, and we can get into it. And I think to some extent that's you talking about the different priorities. and the labels are talking about like their own version of SoundCloud's is fan powered royalties.

The labels wanna talk about artist centric, but they've provided almost no detail as to what they want this new model to be. but I don't know, maybe you can design it for them.

[00:04:36] Dan Runcie: I think you highlighted the inflection point, which is part of this issue. We saw so much growth. Growth is now starting to slow down, and I think growth is also slowing down in this post IPO era of the major record labels you have UMG goes public summer 2021. Warner goes public the summer before that.

And those stocks have been down since those IPOs or since, since they went public. I think Warner's is down at least 16%, or Warner's is down around 11%. UMG is down at least 16%. And you have all these other actors like Bill Ackman and others getting involved in, they praised UMG so much when this deal happened.

They wanna see a return on that. So I think a lot of the pressure is coming into. All of the things we're hearing, whether it's how much to charge for streaming, how much. How that actual price is being charged, how it should be distributed. And to your point, as you mentioned SoundCloud, we've heard a few things from Title, Deezer, others have been testing out new models. I think part of the challenge there though, is those models in a lot of ways have been pushed as ways to increase revenue opportunities for the independent artists and the artists that are using those platforms. Cuz I think that's one of the big takeaways from these user-centric fan power royalties.

They can't add a bit of a boost to the indie artists, especially if you have a user that really likes them, but they haven't necessarily been as favorable to the biggest artists in the world. And those are the artists that the major record labels want any type of change to ultimately benefit.

[00:06:10] Lucas Shaw: Yes, cuz we all know that Taylor Swift and Drake and the weekend are really hurting and they need the extra two or $3 million from Spotify. yeah, I mean that's sort of the nut of the disagreement, right? Is that the major labels want their artists, the professionals, the Crème de la crème to get more and more and more than some dude making ambient noise in his basement or like a young Dua Lipa wannabe, or, I don't know, something amateurs

[00:06:36] Dan Runcie: Rain music is the thing that I kept hearing. Rain music and whale music.

[00:06:41] Lucas Shaw: But, you know, I don't know, it's like distinguishing between different levels of stream, right? And, one of the issues for me, I guess is YouTube and other services have sort of eliminated the distinction between amateur and professional, you know, like any amateur is basically a viral video away from being a professional if they want be. And so I think it gets very tricky to try to charge different prices or deliver different royalties for different people. Not to say that there's not some innovation to be had in the model. I'm just not sure that's it.

[00:07:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think YouTube's a good place to start with this cuz there's a few models that we can break into. There's a few proposed changes that are structured in here. YouTube is actually where Warner Music group's current CEO, Robert Kinsel, he used to be chief business Officer over there. And one of the things that he was really pushing over there was this project called Project Bean.

And it was a multiplier approach where the thought is if you start your listening session, or in YouTube's case, if you start your viewing session with a particular artist or creator, then that person should be compensated more for the duration of what they lead to and the fact that you might be searching for them as opposed to an algorithmically-led play stream, listen, whatever it is. And he's ultimately pushing for a similar thing war, with, the streaming services. Now, I believe it was at a Morgan Stanley call or conference where he had said, if you start your music session with Lizzo, then Lizzo should be paid more. For that, and I think that's an element of trying to separate the weed from the shaft.

They're trying to focus in on what they consider to be their creme de la creme. To your point, I don't think Lizzo is necessarily heard and she just went on a huge arena tour, but that's ultimately what they want, I think that does highlight how not all streams are weighted the same, but it's still a zero sum game.

So if you are going to be providing more through this revenue multiplier opportunity, you're potentially still taking away from others.

[00:08:42] Lucas Shaw: See to me that's the issue is that they're sort of talking about ways to divide the pie differently. Instead of talking about ways to grow the pie, now they're talking about both, but I think it's more important and likely more fruitful going forward to try to talk about ways to grow the pie.

It's also, I would add an interesting way for music companies to deflect from their own accounting, you know, for years, music companies got mad at streaming services because they said that they didn't pay artists enough and they like got all the artists, or at least a lot of them fairly riled up in saying, you know, oh, like Spotify pays me, you know, a third of ascent for every stream.

And that's not fair. But the pie grew by a lot every year. And one of the thing, and so the music companies is partially also cuz they went public, as you noted, like stop attacking the streaming services. But there's one thing that's always been true, which is that the record companies and the music publishers decide, how a lot of that money is allocated, right?

It's Lucien Grange head of Universal Music Group who helps decide that the record labels get more than the publishers, the songwriters, because they make generally have better splits. With the record labels. Now they'd push back on that and say that that's not true. I'm just, that's one version of how this plays out.

The other thing is that, again, then in those deals, like the record, labels keep a lot of that royalty money. So you could argue there's sort of the artist are one constituency, and the record labels or another, the artist could say, well, we might be happier if the record labels gave us a bigger share. And so the best way, again, to keep all of those constituencies happy is to just grow the pie instead of reallocating and trying to sort of tilt it towards the big player.

[00:10:29] Dan Runcie: Which is why we didn't hear as many complaints about this in 2017, 18, 19, when growth was just up and to the right. Everyone was making more. More so there was less pressure on this particular issue itself.

[00:10:41] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. And because I think to what you said, like a lot of these companies are starting to think about two of the three major music companies are starting to think about going public. And then you don't wanna, you know, you don't wanna freak people out. Stability is good when you have public markets.

[00:10:56] Dan Runcie: Right, and that's the other challenge that we often hear. So one of the broader underlying debates that we've been hearing about is whether you keep the current model pro rata. Which pools all of the streams and then that then gets paid out to the rights holders depending on their share of those streams.

And then that is a percentage of the overall revenue that comes in, both for subscription and then for ad support. And then of course, on the user-centric side, it shifts to the per user perspective, and that's where things can get so wild and hairy. Because if I don't log into Spotify for a month and I only listen to one artist versus.

Three artists that I love come out the next month. They're still all splitting that same $10 a month, and that happens for everyone. So it makes the revenue less predictable and all of these things, granted those are extreme cases, but if you look at that on a magnitude level, it could lead to much more variability that publicly traded companies don't generally like.

[00:11:54] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. what do you make of the fan centric model?

[00:11:58] Dan Runcie: I do think that if we were starting from scratch, I think that's the better way to go about it because I think we're now looking at fan centric in this lens of how it disrupts the current model. I do think that if we started looking at things from, okay, how do you monetize that particular user? It centers everyone a bit more on the focus of, okay, how do we end up getting that sole user to stay on the service, to wanna stay committed, to make sure that we're offering things that they want? And I do think that there's gamification that happen on both sides, but I think from a net positive perspective, I do think that that is the one that generally leads to the more fair outcomes.

I still think there's plenty of issues with it, but that's if we were starting from scratch, that's what I would say. It's just tough now because we're now a decade and a half in.

[00:12:50] Lucas Shaw: And is there a version or are there other, tweaks to the model that you think have a chance of being widely adopted?

Yeah, 

[00:12:57] Dan Runcie: there's a few things. So I think one of the things we haven't talked about a lot is duration, because that's a whole nother aspect of this debate. So right now the streaming services, don't clock a stream until it has at least 30 seconds of a particular song. So whether you have a 31 second sleep track that is just added to Spotify, or you have Bohemian Rhapsody, each of those songs is essentially, counts the same.

I think that there should be something in place that compensates you listening to that longer song more than that, I do think though, that the challenges, you're still taking away from that. But in generally speaking, the songs that are 31 seconds mostly aren't necessarily to the same degree, quality, whatever it is, of a song that would be, you know, that 3, 4, 5 plus minute range.

[00:13:53] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. Although couldn't that, also benefit if people would, could, wouldn't people just start uploading like 45 second, or excuse me, 45 minute sleep tracks and they could manipulate it that way. I mean, that gets into the other issue that obviously comes up a lot, and has become sort of a, big topic over the last year in particular is the idea of fraud.

Which I see, I mean, a certain amount of that is, just always gonna happen. but is if you really wanted to discriminate against a particular genre or a particular type of listening, that would be the big one. if you buy into these estimates that like 10% of music listening it's fraud, you know that's billions of dollars that are going to people who maybe don't deserve it.

[00:14:31] Dan Runcie: Right, and that's definitely one of the cons there. I think about the thing is, one of the things I started to accept was there's always gonna be some level of fraud or issue with it. Because I was thinking about the flip side. Let's say that we went to this user-centric model, and let's say that Spotify, apple, Amazon, all of them were on board.

What would fraud look like from that perspectivea and the place I led to is the streaming farms would look less like these places that just have endless songs just playing on repeat. But it would be more like having, whether it's fraudulent users or bots or other people just signing into a service, playing one stream from one saw or one artist, or setting up an account and then going from there.

And it made me think back to the CD or even the tape era where artists and their own record labels would go buy their own albums and things like that. And granted, maybe not necessarily fraud because it's just, you know, one distributor going further down and buying directly from the retailer. But there's always some type of issue there.

And to your point as well, it could also just lead to 45 second tracks or endless tracks to game the duration day long playlist. So there's potential issues either way. Cause I think even with the current model, granted, we haven't necessarily talked about streaming itself in some of the gamification that happens there, but all of these longer albums, shorter releases, music has always adapted to its business model regardless, and I think this is another aspect of this, and that could likely happen again if things ever shifted to a more user-centric approach.

[00:16:03] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, we just need more people to pull a tiara whack and release a 15 minute album.

[00:16:08] Dan Runcie: I know.

[00:16:08] Lucas Shaw: Works for our short.

[00:16:11] Dan Runcie: I feel like Spice is kind of an interesting example of this. I feel like all of the songs on her most recent mixtape are, I don't think any of them are longer than three minutes. They're all within two or maybe even a minute and change. So she's another one that probably lines up here. What do you think, how do you think this actually plays out though?

Because that's the piece that I've been thinking a lot about because. Since the beginning of the year, Lucian had his letter that he put out that called for a change. We've seen Kinsel and others speak about this, and Universal has also partnered with SoundCloud. They partnered with Deezer, they partnered with title for a new model.

We've seen these announcements come, we've seen these partnerships happen, but we haven't exactly seen new developments since then. And I still have to imagine that it's gonna take a lot for Spotify or Apple or Amazon, especially the bigger ones to wanna play. So part of me is skeptical on whether these changes will happen in the same way, because I think that the labels just feel a bit of pressure where.

Then their shareholders and others wanna be able to continue to grow, especially post IPO. They don't have the same leverage, let's say in video where you could easily pull your content. They rely on Spotify and Apple and Amazon way too much. So they're kind of squeezed here and they're trying to do it through public advocacy.

They're trying to partner with smaller DSPs that have their own different incentives to support independent artists. So, and they don't necessarily have the technology themselves to go launch their own service to go do a Disney plus type of thing. And I know audio and video are just so different in that way, so I'm a bit skeptical.

But what's your take? How do you see this playing out?

[00:17:51] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I mean, I share your skepticism. Until a major music company can point to an arrangement with one of those smaller independents, the Deezers, the titles of SoundClouds, and say, we've figured this out and this is why it's better for us. I don't think they're gonna have any success convincing the bigger players.

And if you look at, excuse me, if you look at the priorities of Apple, Amazon, YouTube, and Spotify, sort of the, the big four, apple, Amazon, and YouTube, on the one hand could be persuaded because, you know, they don't have a lot to lose there. But, they don't have a lot of reason, like they're not relying on their music services to make a ton of money, to make them profitable.

I mean, there are all these companies are under pressure to improve their financials, but it's not clear how, like reforming the model to benefit major labels and or artists in any way benefits them. If anything, most of these companies have wanted to reduce the power of major labels because them have them having a lot of leverage makes their negotiations more complicated.

You look at a Spotify, they would like the major labels to have less of a say because it gives them a better chance in the long run of trying to improve their margins and reduce their payouts to rights holders. I think it's more likely that they look for ways to grow the overall pie, because that's what would most benefit them.

which is why I think, you know, we've already seen Apple and Amazon raise prices. It's inevitable to me that Spotify is gonna raise prices. they're already, they're now trotting out or about to release A higher priced, high quality, service. I don't think those really matter, but raising prices on the base service to me is just such a no-brainer.

I mean, the idea that that Spotify still costs $10 a month is insane to me. and then maybe there are other ways that they can make money from artists, right? You know, I've certainly heard folks in the industry. Say, well, why can't they do more sort of monetize fandom and find way they know who all of the fans are for Pink Panthers or Ice Spice, or Beyonce, whoever it is, can they find like the most ardent a hundred thousand and find a way to sell them more stuff?

[00:19:50] Dan Runcie: That last piece I think is key because they have better data than that on anyone. They flex it to us every year with Spotify rap. They tell me I'm in the 0.4% of an artist that I'm like, oh, I didn't even realize I was in that early of an artist, or I got one recently. I was in the first 10% of people to listen to Post Malone and, the 21 Savage song.

And I'm like, okay, well you're giving me this data. How do we then use that And I feel like I've seen them float around a few ideas over the year. You remember back when Tencent was really starting to become more discussed in the west, and people were trying to see if Spotify was gonna get into karaoke or tipping or things like that to try to replicate that model.

You have this little different ending outta the business. You have this data that tells you better than any other company who the top Uber fans are. Sure you're not in the business of ticketing to those largest fans. I know they've tried to do some ticketing on a smaller scale, but beyond raising the prices and raising the prices is still huge.

I mean, Obviously you go from not $10 to $11, you just increase your top line revenue, 10% for your largest market. So that's huge. But yeah, what are those other ways to increase the pie? Because like 17, 18, 19, those years showed us if you increase the pie and everyone is just continuing to make money up to the right, we hear less of these complaints about people of China trade pennies, essentially.

[00:21:09] Lucas Shaw: Well, I'll get that in a second. I actually think that pricing, like these places could raise prices by like $5 over the next few years, and they wouldn't suffer much. I think we've seen it in video. you'll churn a little bit, but you can raise prices with some degree of impunity as far, which would fundamentally change the business.

I mean, as far as the fan interactions. I mean, look, there are people who have way more experience and expertise, than I do. Who could come up with the examples, but, you know, all the noise around NFTs, a year or two ago that was really, or the idea of web three, right? That was the idea of finding ways to monetize fandoms.

We've seen it happen in Asia. We've seen it happen in certain parts of the creator economy in the US, there's no reason it can't work in the music business. YouTube has like eight or nine other forms of what it calls alter alternative monetization, whether it's selling subscriptions, which obviously Spotify already is, or like Super Chats or what, like all of these different things that you can do. And

 there has to be some versions of that for music. Now, maybe that's not something that the top artists are gonna do because the incremental revenue just doesn't matter as much to them. But if you're, a lower or middle class artist who's like struggling to, to make money, or make enough like, those feel like no-brainers to me, people who'd be more likely to opt into that.

and that can be, you know, opportunities to chat or like, take the idea of sort of fan meet and greets, but make it virtual. Take some of those things that happened during the pandemic and try to bring them into your, your daily life or if you wanna give people, like, let's say you're an artist on tour and you wanna give people like a sneak peek at your rehearsal. Like there're just so many ways to try to, honor and interact with your most art fans.

[00:22:52] Dan Runcie: I agree. It also makes me think of vinyl as well, because half of the vinyls that are purchased, more than half people aren't even listening to, they're put up in the wall as decor, as merch, as ways to show their own self-expression and Spotify has the data that can infer who those people are that could be most likely to purchase that.

So I think all of the things that you could have on the platform that could enable that I think are key. So, the pushback I've often heard, whether it's from people at Spotify or people that know the business well, is that they've been hesitant to do anything or add anything to the platform that isn't directly involved with You or I streaming a song.

So whether that's interacting with fans or that's having other type of opportunities or experiences, if that doesn't involve you doing this direct revenue generating activity. They're hesitant to do it, I think that it could be a bit of forest missing the trees there, but that's the pushback I've often heard.

[00:23:50] Lucas Shaw: But they have been more than happy to experiment with video like eight different times and have it fail every time.

[00:23:56] Dan Runcie: True. True. I think back to the days where, they don't push it as much anymore, but like when Rap Caviar used to have the weekly videos and things like that, you used to see them push more into this, especially with some of the video exclusives for the podcasting. You just, you saw a lot of it, but you just haven't seen as much.

[00:24:13] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. I don't know. I hear you. The pushback I've gotten when this has come up is like, most artists just won't do it. That it's hard enough to get them to like to show up on time or do all sorts of things in their daily life that they're not gonna wanna add a bunch of other things to their day to make a little extra money from fans. And while I think that's true, like I said, while I think that's true for the really big artists, I think it's less true for up and covers. And look, maybe there's not as much of a market, but I and social media content creators have, a fair amount in common.

And there are certainly ways that Spotify can sort of learn from what YouTube's already doing.

[00:24:48] Dan Runcie: Right, cuz if you're an artist that is native coming up, these are the folks that you wanna continue to attract and build. This is how they're natively growing, they're reaching into their fan bases and they're tapping into them. If they're not gonna do it on your platform, they're gonna do it on someone else's end.

We've seen how YouTube's revenue has continued to grow and how it's become a much more meaningful player in music. So I do think that there's a broader opportunity there. The other thing that you mentioned, we talked a bit about pricing. One of the rubs I've heard about pricing itself is how the record labels and the streaming services would split that additional pie, or how they would split that additional incremental dollar that's there.

Because as we know from a high level, Spotify's $1 coming in 30 cents of that dollar they keep internally for their own business, 70 cents of that dollar goes to all the various rights holders. But with that additional dollar, how do they then wanna split that? Spotify feels like they would be giving, doing the labels a favor by increasing that dollar that they add if they don't necessarily wanna just do that moving forward.

They have these agreements in place. Spotify itself has advances that it's trying to recoup from a. Revenue perspective as well. So how that revenue perspec or how that recoupment looks like, especially if the model changes, but could be all of whack in a lot of ways. But from a pricing perspective, that's the rub there.

So I think that we will see Spotify eventually raise that price. I think it'll probably be likely a dollar in the most developed markets, but that's the one rub I've heard Spotify. Wants something in return, and they probably feel more pressure to want something in return as opposed to Apple, Amazon, YouTube, since they, as you mentioned, sit under larger corporate entities.

So music is more of a customer acquisition and brand play in a lot of ways, as opposed to Spotify trying to build a real business around audio.

[00:26:40] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I mean, and I guess the reason that the streaming services would want to change the splits is just to improve their margin because I don't know, it feels like you could keep it the same and even though they would still have to pay out a lot of extra money, and it doesn't help them that much.

Like there also is an issue of just sort of fixed costs that they have. So bringing in incremental revenue should still improve margins for music companies. It should, it won't improve them dramatically, excuse me, for streaming services, not music companies, but it will improve them. And so if Spotify can take its monthly price from $10 a month to 12 or $13 a month, it's gonna improve the business.

Now, I hear you, maybe they wanna renegotiate it, but if I'm a music company, you set a precedent that on those extra dollars that all of a sudden the split goes down 5% and Spotify's gonna push that, push on that for the rest of it, for the next deal.

[00:27:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think there's wiggle room there. And I think to that point, you mentioned earlier on pricing, we're right now talking about a dollar or $2 increases. I do think in the most developed markets, They have so much more pricing power. They have so much more runway, and I know that anything that is seen as a limit on growth, especially because all these services wanna continue to grow.

They are hesitant to do anything like that. As you mentioned before, the markets that Spotify is growing in the most are markets where they cannot charge $10 or even $5 a month for regular service. But in the developed markets, I think it could be 15, I even think you could go up to 20. And for some of these areas, like we talked about video, and I do know that audio and video are different in a lot of ways, but because of the nature of the listening experiences and because I think people are probably more likely to pay for fewer audio experiences because it is passive as opposed to video being active. I do think that you could get away with commanding a higher price, and that's how, even if they charge a price, that's more in line with what Netflix now charges.

A lot of these challenges as we keep going back to, wouldn't come up nearly as much because of how much more money the business is making. Yeah, if raise the prices to 15 bucks, fundamentally different business in so many ways.

[00:28:54] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I went to a store yesterday to, or two days ago, and I just bought a bottle of sparkling water at a 7-Eleven, and it was like $3 and 30 cents. That used to be like a dollar 50 a do. I mean, Spotify's, and music streaming more broadly is one of the only industries that doesn't seem to have taken part in, inflation over the last many years.

[00:29:14] Dan Runcie: It's wild. It really is wild. What do you currently pay? Do you use Spotify or do you use a different service?

[00:29:20] Lucas Shaw: I use the Spotify family plan

[00:29:23] Dan Runcie: Okay. All right. Same here. Yeah, my wife and I are on a plan, and I think we split that. It's like $13 a month, so yeah, I'm well below that. And it sounds like you're pretty well below that too. And you know, for us as power users compared to how much we probably spend on video, I mean probably at least five, 10 times that.

[00:29:41] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I probably spend it at least 80 to $90 on video every month across everything

[00:29:47] Dan Runcie: I also imagine the nature of your job. You have to stay tapped in. It can't be like, oh, I don't know what's happening with this series or platform. I don't have a subscription, you kind of have to be tapped into all of 'em.

[00:29:57] Lucas Shaw: there are one or two services that I don't per manently pay for but I do pay for most of the big ones.

[00:30:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. I mean, like we said, I think that I'd be surprised if we see any big movements here. But before we go down the road too far, let's just fast forward to where are we summer 2024. So a year from now. Are we still having the same debates has Universal been able to make any progress?

Is Spotify priced any differently? And we could take each of those one by one, but where do you think we are with things a year from now?

[00:30:32] Lucas Shaw: Yeah, I think prices for all the streaming services will have gone up.

Like 

[00:30:35] Dan Runcie: a dollar, $2 or,

[00:30:37] Lucas Shaw: I'd say one or $2, probably not more dramatic than that. but I'd say one or $2. And I think that, music companies will have gotten some of the other independents to like agree to test and experiment with different models, but there won't be some new. Model that has replaced the current one.

[00:30:59] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And then do you think that we make any movement on multipliers or duration or any of those proposed changes?

[00:31:07] Lucas Shaw: I think that similarly, like people test it out, but nothing becomes the new common standard in that time period.

[00:31:12] Dan Runcie: Right. And then big picture as well. I still do think that the underlying crux of this is that platforms are two different incentives, and I think if the record labels do see themselves as having the major record labels, to see themselves as having this HBO level content. If you are taking a step back, the best way to solve that is having your own service, having your own platform.

I think that could solve a lot of things, but I could never, I just don't see that happening. Do you think that could ever happen?

[00:31:41] Lucas Shaw: An artist with their 

[00:31:42] Dan Runcie: service.

Oh no, not an artist with their own service, but let's say whether it was either

[00:31:45] Lucas Shaw: A music company. 

[00:31:46] Dan Runcie: One of the music companies or if the majors came together and was just like, okay, this is our conglomerate major label plus service.

[00:31:55] Lucas Shaw: No, they missed their moment. If they wanted to do that, they should have done it 10 or 15 years ago.

[00:31:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it reminds me when was it in the early two thousands? Do you remember Press play, that was one of the UMG 

[00:32:06] Lucas Shaw: Vaguely. 

[00:32:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I mean, I feel like a lot has changed since then. So there were a few failed attempts, but yeah, I think they missed the moment. They missed the moment on that but Lucas, good stuff.

This was fun. Well, maybe we'll have to check back in, in case there's any more movement here. But, for the people that are listening and wanna stay tapped in with you, what do you got coming up?

[00:32:25] Lucas Shaw: What do I have coming up? I send out a newsletter every Sunday called Screen Time, about business of pop culture, film, tv, music, podcasting, and a bunch of stories that I can't really talk about. And then we have the screen time conference in the fall.

[00:32:39] Dan Runcie: So yeah, tell us what's the deal with the Stream Time conference?

[00:32:42] Lucas Shaw: it'll be, you know, an event in Los Angeles, day and a half devoted to the business of pop culture, which is sort of what I cover and what my team covers. We'll have some of the bus biggest executives across, film, tv, music, gaming, podcasting, social media, onstage, I'll interview them, or one of my colleagues that's gonna be, you know, we have the CEO of Netflix, the CEO of Endeavor, the one of the people who runs CAA, the person who runs gaming at Microsoft. Issa Ray, Bill Simmons, the person who runs the Universal Film Studio, likely with a filmmaker, two or three other people we booked that I can't talk about just yet. And I think, you know, if you're interested in, if you're interested in the business of culture, you should buy a ticket.

It is expensive. Get your company to pay for it. But it's gonna be an awesome event. I feel like, you know, there obviously are a lot of conferences, but I think ours will be unique in its marriage of business and culture. The way my team, covers things is we sort of bring together a lot of different industries that are typically seen as separate and also it'll be global.

Like we have already won. And probably one more, international speakers coming, that, one of which is in music that I think people will be pretty excited

[00:33:50] Dan Runcie: Awesome. Good stuff. Thanks, Lucas. Been a pleasure.

[00:33:54] Lucas Shaw: Yeah. Thanks Dan.

[00:33:55] Dan Runcie Outro Audio: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trap continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead.

Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2058 no Do Music Videos Still Matter? (with Tati Cirisano) https://www.trapital.com/podcast What’s the role of a music video today? In the 1980s, music videos flipped the industry thanks to MTV. Videos helped artists like Michael Jackson and Madonna become cultural icons. Record labels spent millions on music videos to promote their CD sales. Everyone was winning. Music videos don’t hold the same power today in the streaming era. The budgets are smaller, but they still get made.  To break it all down, I was joined by MIDiA Research analyst Tati Cirisano. Here’s what we covered: 0:52 What is the role of a music video today? 2:15 MTV’s role in music videos 7:46 Comparisons to TikTok 11:27 Music video budgets peaked in mid-90s 14:30 Napster changed everything 17:27 Music videos as career launchpads 18:50 YouTube revitalizes music videos 25:44 Range of video budgets  31:04 Big dollars going to documentaries and short films 32:53 Rise of lyric videos 41:42Does YouTube have a music video formula? 44:09Measuring ROI of music videos in 2023 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Tati Cirisano, @tatianacirisano This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Tati Cirisano: There's an argument to be made that MTV like almost invented the music video or almost like made music videos a thing because having that audience there and having that like cultural impact is what led to bigger budgets for music videos so I almost feel like MTV gets credit for like kind of inventing the music video. [00:00:19] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:47] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: This episode is all about music videos and what their value prop is in the industry today. Back in the MTV era, the role of a music video was clear. This was your four minute opportunity to sell the hell out of your artist and for your label to promote its artist. Yet fans bought into the lifestyle, the identity, the persona of this person, and get them to go to Sam Goody, go to Tower Records and buy the albums. It was a marketing channel and it was a marketing channel that the record labels were continuing to put money into, and as the effectiveness continued to grow, they put more and more. Into that and that budget exploded. By the time we got to the mid to late 90s, we saw music video budgets hitting millions of dollars, and artists were doing out of this world things in these videos. But we slowly started to see those budgets slash. Went at the introduction of Napster and the CD era started to decline and the money was no longer flowing the way that it once was. But we started to see music videos take a new turn in the YouTube era. And now in the TikTok era, what is the ROI of a music video? What role do they serve in today's industry? And to break it down, we're enjoying by Tati Cirisano, an analyst at MIDia Research. He's been on the podcast a bunch of times, and this topic was right up her alley. So we talked a bit about that and more. Hope you enjoy this episode. Here's our breakdown on the role of music videos in today's industry. [00:02:16] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we are going to take a trip down memory lane to the wonderful World of Music videos, how this art form has evolved over the years. And I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research, Tati welcome. [00:02:28] Tati Cirisano: Thank you. Good to be back once again. [00:02:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. Can I start with a story? You mind if I start with a story with this one?   So, a couple weeks ago I was catching up with, CEO from one of the major record labels. This is someone that if you're probably listening to this household, if you're probably listening to this podcast, you probably know, and they run a label that is also a household name, and they were telling me about a conversation they had with an artist who is also a household name and how this artist wanted to have a million dollar plus seven plus figure, multi-million dollar music video budget because they wanted to make this big splash with what they were doing. And the CEO was like, no, I'm not giving you that. Like, what do you think this is? And for context, this is a artist who hasn't had a big hit since George Bush's first term. Let me say that roughly, just to give some context here. So, So it's been some time, but I also was a bit surprised because this is someone who seemed like they were up with the times in tech, and I remember asking the label exec, I was like, what's the deal? I thought this artist was with this. You see the movies they're making here, there, and this, that, and the third. And he was like, Hey. You would be surprised sometimes the egos get the best of these people and this is what they want. And that was a big inspiration for this conversation because I know you and I have talked about things like Spotify versus YouTube. YouTube, of course, having such a big focus in music videos and it's role. But that's what made me think it would be a great time to take a trip down memory lane and just revisit music videos themselves and. Going back to 1981, I feel like we could start music videos well before that. That obviously was there, but I think that was the origin place for a lot of what became known as the Modern Music Video and MTV itself. What's your take on how impactful MTV was? Because there was definitely a big shift of any music videos we saw before and any music videos we saw after. [00:04:36] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, I mean, you're right that like we could start this even further. Back in history, there were artists like the Beatles were making music films in like the 60s. David Bowie did the same but there wasn't really a place to showcase them the way that MTV, like, the one that MTV created. So I feel like it's not just that really iconic, amazing music videos, like those of, like Michael Jackson and, others made MTV a thing. I feel like there's an argument to be made that MTV like almost invented the music video or almost like made music videos a thing because having that audience there and having that like cultural impact is what led to bigger budgets for music videos and labels kind of focusing on this as an art form and a promotional piece. And that also led to more interesting creative videos. So I almost feel like MTV gets credit for like kind of inventing the video, the music video. [00:05:30] Dan Runcie: And inventing the video as a distinct art form that can live on its own in distinction from the music itself, because you mentioned The Beatles, you mentioned some of those other artists from that time. Music videos almost felt more like a utility. They were a commodity. Let's put the camera up while you're recording the tune, and maybe we'll add in some things. Maybe they'll add in some B-roll. And that's what it very much existed as for years. But then MTV takes it and makes it this unique thing. And we saw from the early days, whether it was Duran Duran, David Bowie, Michael Jackson, Madonna, they were some of the early people that really made it their own thing. And you saw more of those movies and that's where MTV being able to capture the eyeballs there, the growth of cable as well, and them becoming one of the more popular channels there. You see this platform having this type of impact, you invest more dollars into it, and this becomes a much stronger marketing channel, which then commanded and justified them putting more and more money over time into these videos. [00:06:35] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, and speaking of Madonna, I think it also made music a lot more visual where music videos kind of opened this pathway for artists to become not just music icons, but kind of like style and fashion and cultural icons. there's so many videos that. Are just kind of like etched into everyone's brains and so many iconic outfits like people still dress up as, Britney Spears and the Baby One More Time Video and like all these other iconic ones. I think it, started making music more of a visual thing. And in turn, that also helped drive fandom around artists. Cuz if there's one thing I've learned in all the studying of, fandom that I've done and how it develops, it's pretty much always about context. It's always maybe listening to a song makes you a fan or doesn't make you a fan. It makes you a listener of the artist. But it's only once you know more about, who they are and like what their style is and what their aesthetic is and all these other things that you become a true fan. I think a lot of fandom was formed by sitting around the TV with friends and like watching a video for the first time on MTV. It was just a more captivating way to get to know an artist and have that context around them. [00:07:47] Dan Runcie: It's a big point, and that's something I definitely related with too. Growing up in that era, you were able to see and interact with those artists. If I had just heard these artists on the radio, it would've been a very different relationship. But I know that for a lot of people, that's how they gravitated to music. That's how they captured this, and that wasn't the way that it, I grew up for me, whether it was watching them on MTV, watching them on BET, That was the experience, and especially as things started to take off in the CD era, we saw more artists having success with it. We also started to see more pushback as well. I think it was around the early 90s, even the late eighties, this was around the time MTV was really kicking into gear. And the sales and numbers, everything was just up and to the right from a growth perspective. But we started to hear more critiques, some of the more traditionalists in the music industry started to say things like, these music videos are turning artists into one trick ponies. It's no longer about the music anymore. It's about making, Music video. And that's clearly resonating with some of the critiques. We now hear about TikTok as well. But it makes me think about the patterns that music often follows and when there is a new art form that does allow some type of growth, there's critiques, but those critiques also do stem from bit of this. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. And we've seen this time and time again where a lot of those artists that had. Had critiques about MTV, whether it was Mariah Carey in the very early days, or even groups like REM, they would go on to make some of the most iconic music videos from the 90s as well. And I think we've seen the same with whether it's streaming or TikTok music videos was one of the things that I remember as having a bit of that cyclical pattern. [00:09:32] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, and there's so many trends in music videos that I feel like now we're play, we're seeing play out on TikTok or have already seen like there was sort of the dance, video craze of like, single ladies and crank that and PSY with Gangnam style. There were all these music videos that were about getting everyone to do a dance. And that was the way, that was like the promotional thing of if you got people to do that, then they would do it at the club when the song came on, they would do it in public. It would sort of become this bigger moment. And then that was kind of the first phase of TikTok when it started to rise in the 2020 when in early 2020 was like all dance videos. and even. I remember there were some videos that people, I know we haven't gotten to YouTube yet, but when YouTube came into the equation, people were uploading their own versions of videos and now that's like a pretty common thing. But yeah, it's interesting how all this stuff is cyclical and I think like video to the stuff about, the criticisms and like being one trick ponies and that kind of thing. I think that video has kind of, with music, always been about creating a cultural moment, aside from it just being another art form that I think artists delight in taking part in. Cause it's just another way to be creative. But I think it's, it's, about creating a cultural moment and creating a cultural moment in this day and age has morphed into this concept of virality, but it's always been about the same thing. Like viral in the 90s was, people wanting to be Britney Spears in that music video I was just talking about, and it kind of like being, this thing everyone was talking about for months. The same thing is happening now on TikTok. It's just happening faster. so yeah, I think that a lot of this stuff is cyclical and those criticisms, the point is that it's a promotional tool, so of course it's gonna lead to kind of like flash in the pan moments. So, Yeah, I have complicated feelings about those criticisms, I guess. [00:11:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I do too. I understand and I think that what we saw in the next decade, especially with some of those artists that came around and ended up leaning in, said a lot about where it is. And not every artist needed to do the MTV thing. Not every artist needed to lean into it all the way. Granted, I do think that most artists had music videos to an extent, but there was clearly a wave of where things were going. And right around the mid to late 90s, We saw the peak, at least from a budget perspective, of how much money was being put into music videos. And when you're talking about creating moments and in the pre-internet era, there wasn't necessarily as much virality, but the thing that got people locked in was how visually stunning or something that you've seen that's never been seen before. It's almost this bigger was better era. And then we get to points where in the mid 90s, Both Madonna and Michael and Janet Jackson are having music videos that aren't just one or 2 million. That screen music video was rumored to be around five to 7 million depending on the source you look at, in 1995 dollars, and that's that black and white video. They're shape shifting and all this stuff. And we continued to see this over the next couple of years. Of course, hype Williams and everything that he did from music videos was always unique, is always futuristic and with all of the elements that he had there. But it took a lot of money to make those music videos the same way with NSYNC and all those no strings attached music videos. Those were multimillion dollar music videos too. And it brings me back to even the things that they would spend money on. I'm thinking about, Busta Rhymes and Janet Jackson, they had that once. It's gonna be a music video where you have the silver liquid that's like coming over. Both of them and Busta Rhymes took guitar lessons. Apparently that's what MTV's making the video thing had said in its, little popup that comes to the music video. But all of those things [00:13:24] Tati Cirisano: I missed those popups. [00:13:26] Dan Runcie: I know it was such a fun era, right? It was. It was such a, I guess a lot of that's been now disrupted by what we see on YouTube, which I know we'll get into in a minute, but that was such a moment. I think it spoke to, why people were willing to put in money at the time with just where things were with the era that was the marketing channel. Music videos were seen purely as an expense to be able to sell more CDs the same way that touring at the time was seen as an opportunity to try and sell more CDs. And the artists that sold the most often got the biggest budgets. And at the time, bigger was all often seen as better, especially when it came to the contemporary Pop X and that whole ecosystem of music, video culture, and everything around it made that take off the way it did. [00:14:13] Tati Cirisano: no, absolutely. I think the promotional power was worth it at the time. and like you said, you could justify spending that much on a music video if you were gonna make it back in CD sales if you were one of these superstars. So it made a lot of sense at the time. And then came master. [00:14:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that changed everything because and there was a fair amount of overlap there just with the way things were because so much of the industry was still focused where it was, I look at even the music video economy where there was a cyclical nature where because of the demand, The programs themselves or the channels themselves started launching programs dedicated to showcasing music videos, whether it was 106 and Park or TRL. They had different shows throughout the day, but all of them were some unique flavor of just trying to show you more music videos. And that's what was cool about it. You were able to have this whole ecosystem there, but then as you mentioned, Napster comes in, changes everything. The dollars are no longer flowing, and it. Is harder to justify spending millions of dollars on a music video if you can't confirm that that artist is gonna be able to do that. I think in a lot of ways, the peak was, we talked about them before in sync, Britney Spears, Nsync being able to sell, I think it was nearly 3 million units of an album the first week that it comes out. Like people skipping school in order to go buy, no strings attached. That just didn't happen any more to that level. I mean, we eventually saw examples like Adele and even this Taylor Swift album, but it wasn't the same way that it was then, and it shifted everything and I think it eventually Led to lower budgets. We still saw a lot of creativity. I still remember watching tons of music videos, especially in the mid to, especially in the mid two thousands. But it was definitely a different vibe cuz it was this pre and post Napster, but pre YouTube era where the budgets were still somewhat strong, but it wasn't quite what it was before. [00:16:13] Tati Cirisano: and there was this whole ecosystem before that, like, it's, kind of stunning me to remember how many different roles there were. Like music directors I feel like got a lot more shine because there were the VMAs and all these kind of things dedicated to them. But then there were the VJs of the time. and there were kind of like the. dancers and the other like characters in these videos, which kickstarted a lot of actors and actresses careers. Just being in these music videos, there was this idea of like the video vixen, which is a term I absolutely cringe to the n degree at, but like that was a role, like there was such an ecosystem around it. You're totally right and then it really so much since then. [00:16:54] Dan Runcie: When you think of the term video vixen, who's the first person that comes to mind? [00:16:58] Tati Cirisano: I think of people like Eva Mendez in the Miami video with Will Smith, I think of Scarlet Johansen. which one was she in? It was like some, [00:17:09] Dan Runcie: Justin Timberlake, what goes around comes around. [00:17:11] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, there were so many, I don't know. Alicia Silverstone I know was in a couple of music videos. Kim Kardashian was in Fallout boy, thanks for the Memories, which was a bit later and like she was already famous. But like that remembering that blows my mind. Like there were just so many of these examples. I don't know. [00:17:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah, there's a few that comes to mind. I think about someone like Vida Guerrera, like she was always in a bunch of them. Even male video vixen's too. I'm thinking [00:17:37] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. [00:17:38] Dan Runcie: Beckford and, Toni Braxton's Unbreak my heart, in that one. And then Tyrese and, what music video is that was that angel of mine with Monica. So you definitely had 'em back and forth. Even the artists themselves sometimes ended up being vixens and other ones. Terrence Howard was in a bunch of 'em. But I think that this too, it talks about just how music was a launchpad, right? You mentioned the VJs earlier. So many of these VJs started as those types of personalities, but then they went on to go do other things. I mean, Carson Daley is a media personality now doing his own thing. He got his roots in TRL. I feel like, aJ from 106 and Park still does media things suspense. Terrence Jay definitely does as well. So you see those, but you also saw it on the music video side too, where directors like Spike Jones is now doing, you know, Hollywood movies.  Look at the Daniels, they directed turn down for what? the little John's music video, and then they just directed and won an Oscar for Best Picture and best Director with everything everywhere, all at once. So music continues to be a launchpad in [00:18:45] Tati Cirisano: What a pivot. Turn Down for What to Everything Everywhere All At Once. [00:18:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah, never would've guessed that one, never would've guessed that one. And I think with that, we should probably start now talking about the YouTube era because things took another turn here. You mentioned a little bit of this earlier where user-generated videos started to take off, but I think the success of YouTube started to tell people that, Hey, The things that are going viral and getting attention. It isn't just using the most amount of money possible to see outta this world stuff. As cool as it was to see Hype Williams creating action figures of Missy Elliot running around in space, we don't necessarily need to see that much out of this world to do it. It can be Soulja boy doing his type of dance and then having all this other user generated content on Crank that Batman, crank, that Spider-Man, crank that whoever, and we saw that time and time again. So I think YouTube, and this was before any of the licensing deals came. The fact that crank that blew up became the number one single in the country stuck out in a way. And I think that led to another evolution of what people were willing to spend money on and how they thought about the promotion of music videos as well. [00:19:59] Tati Cirisano: Totally like remember the okay go music video with the treadmills. Like remember how cool we all thought that was? I mean, I'll speak for myself, but like it's like funny to think about now. That was such a big deal. That they made this like really low budget video, just kind of like running around on treadmills. And I think that's the other thing that's interesting about YouTube is, so pre MTV, there was like not really any place to showcase music videos. Then there was this channel for it, but it was really limited to the major label signed artists. And then you got to YouTube where there wasn't any gatekeeping around music videos anymore. Anything could be uploaded and anything could be played. And there was just less of that gatekeeping. But then the flip side of that is it also means that it's a lot harder to stand out. And so YouTube has, kind of made any one of those videos a bit less impactful for that reason. Over time, I think, and that gets back to like the fragmentation that, you know, I love to talk about. [00:20:57] Dan Runcie: It's fascinating because I think that each time something goes viral or each time something breaks out on YouTube, You do get a lot of copycat behavior. You see a moment where things are happening. It isn't always rational, but that's kind of the beauty of it. And then you go on to something else. I was looking at things talking about the 10 year anniversary of Harlem Shake, of that whole video wave where people were doing all those crazy dances. The music then stops, and then a couple years later we saw Black Beatles and that saw reach a whole nother level because of the freeze challenge thing that people were doing. And that was a whole nother culture with it because again, we started to see less flashiness of them trying to do particular things. But once the licensing came, music videos then became revenue generating tools. On their own and it was no longer necessarily just about trying to have a song get retired on the charts, whether it was on a 106 and Park and TRL there became the subculture of how can we get this music video to hit this? Number of streams or this hit this number of views. And I know we start to see this now more where most of the services are publicly sharing how many streams and views their songs and music videos have. But I feel like we started to see this on YouTube first, and a lot of the chatter that you would once see started to live in the comments section. And you started to see these subcultures of fans that would gravitate and connect to songs in that way. And I felt like that was something that was unique. [00:22:29] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, and there were a lot music videos, over the past, like five years, over the past 10 years, like the single ladies video and like Childish Gambino with this is America. And even like more recently, like the Kendrick Lamar video with like the AI generated faces, I forget which song that [00:22:46] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah, the hard part five. [00:22:47] Tati Cirisano: Yes. But you're totally right that rather than the go, the virality of a music video. Just being about driving streams. they also, those videos also became revenue generated themselves. So going viral on YouTube, having a video that everybody was gonna be anxious to watch, was a big deal for that. And there, I feel like there were kind of less so today, but like pre TikTok in like 2016 to like 2020. It kind of feels like there was a bit of a mini revival of like, Music videos being this bigger promotional tool, like, do you remember all the promotion around the Thank you Next video for Ariana Grande? That was nuts, like, we were all waiting weeks for that video to come out and there was so much, conversation about it and so many clips and so many interviews in the press and I feel like there was kind of a moment before TikTok came around when music videos were once again, kind of this really big promotional tool and way to kind of break through the noise and generate revenue. [00:23:47] Dan Runcie: With Thank you, next. That was the one where they spoofed mean girls, right? [00:23:51] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, and like a bunch of other of those types of movies, like there was like a clueless scene in it. I feel like there [00:23:57] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah, yeah. [00:23:57] Tati Cirisano: I feel like there were a bunch, maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I think they, they did that with like a bunch of different, like 90s and two thousands movies. And there were so many cameos. There were so many cameos. [00:24:08] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah, that's right. It did. It did. And I think a few of those music videos, you mentioned Salish Gambino as well. He's clearly someone that I think is calculated and knows what he's doing from a communication perspective, but with that video, it wasn't even necessarily about how much money was spent on this or something. It was more so here's this timely thing and there was a shock value that was linked to it, and I know that music videos have always had a bit of, have always had shock value, especially since the MTV area era think specifically about an artist like Madonna and then even Britney later on that leaned into this. But we started to see artists lean, lean into it even more from a. political standpoint, making statements and trying to say things that they wouldn't otherwise have said. And even thinking about artists like Joyner Lucas who had someone that was wearing a Make America Great again hat in their music video to then show that as some type of hypothetical conversation of what it could be like to talk to people that may think differently. I may be misremembering parts of the music video, but we started to see more of that integrate where. That then stems from how flexible this art form can be. You can have a music video like wp, which I do think was one of the more recent, you know, TikTok era music videos that created a moment. You could have them have these standalone things as well. [00:25:29] Tati Cirisano: Mm-hmm. That's exactly what I mean with how music videos give you so much more context like it's just another way for the artist to tell their story and express themselves. It's just another avenue for that, and there's so many different ways to do that. It is such a flexible art form. [00:25:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. I have a few stats here that I think would be helpful just for some context setting. As we mentioned earlier, we talked about music video budgets in the late 90s and even the early two thousands where, top artists getting million dollars plus for their music video wasn't uncommon. But here, let me share some numbers. Cardi B had shared some self-reported public numbers of things she spent on music videos just over the years. This was from two years ago, so I'm sure she's done stuff then. But Bodak Yellow, that was the music videos that they had done. That one in Dubai, that was $15,000. Granted, she was much smaller at the time. People likely weren't charging her as much, but she did that for just $15,000 and then, Bar Cardi, that was $150,000. The money music video, which did look like a pretty elaborate and not cheap music video. That was 400,000, please Me. The one that she did with Bruno Mars, that was 900,000 and then WAP was a million dollars. But those are two artists coming together, and that was also another expensive looking music video with a bunch of cameos as well. So even WAP, something that I would consider on the highest degree. Of what, major record label might be willing to spend. Even that was just a million dollars or compared to how much more they were willing to spend a couple decades before. [00:27:02] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, yeah, I mean that, that kind of doesn't surprise me. Like I feel like the ROI for music videos has just gone down a lot and it just doesn't make sense to spend much more than that on a music video. Like you can still make a splash, it can still be, a good promotional tool. And a way to, generate more revenue, but they don't tend to last as long as they used to, and it's just really hard to get people's attention on one thing these days. I think short form is also being prioritized or that's kind of the sense that I'm getting and yeah, it doesn't totally surprise me, does it? What do you think about those numbers? [00:27:44] Dan Runcie: It doesn't surprise me either because of where so much music is consumed and how things go viral. But it is a bit interesting when I think about music videos as a visual art form and what tracks and what resonates compared to other forms of entertainment where I do feel like we've continued to see bigger and bigger com, bigger and better, at least from the money that's put into these productions for major film studios, for instance, what they're putting into superhero films, what they put into Fast and Furious films, or even what James Cameron had put into Avatar. Spending 300 million, not even on the marketing, just on the budget for these movies isn't even unheard of now. So there's clearly an attraction of doing that, even if it is one of these tent pole franchise movies, even for some of the things that have gone straight to video. But that didn't necessarily happen in the same way in music videos. It started to pull. We obviously know that the industry was hit harder than others, so it pulled back. But even as the industry continued to grow, and I think, I mean, I know now the numbers unadjusted for inflation have the highest, at least revenue on the recorded side. Bigger hasn't necessarily translated to better in that perspective. Even if you look at video games, the graphics, all the things that are stunning are the things that we continue to see. And granted in, video games, we've seen a few outliers, like when Nintendo, we blew up. Clearly that wasn't a graphics thing, but they were tapping into something that Xbox and PlayStation weren't at the time. But in music videos, the bigger, better graphics of artists doing crazy things just didn't resonate in the same way, the only music video I can think of is, Ed Sheeran, what's that music video he did? I think he's kind of floating around and stuff and moving. I think it's bad habits. But one of those, I think that's probably the most recent one, but even that one I don't think is like that expensive of a music video, but we just haven't seen better. I'm thinking back to in the 90s. Yeah, I mentioned the Hype Williams music videos or even, you know, Backstreet Boys like moving around in space and larger than life. We just haven't seen that translate in that same way in music videos. [00:29:51] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. Well the other thing that you just that just made me think of when you mentioned film is how do I put this? Like album promo cycles these days are so much less premeditated, right? It's more about putting songs out and seeing how people react, and then deciding which ones to push forward as a single, then deciding what to put music, video resources behind. So I think that the other difference with music versus something like film and TV is things are just getting decided on the fly. Like a song goes viral and then you're like, okay, now we're gonna make a video for this song, but you wouldn't decide that until you saw how the songs were performing.  So I think that that's a big, big factor in it as well. But we've also seen some good, like low but lower budget music videos. Like I loved the Ice Spice Pink Panther for boys a Liar. And it was literally just them like hanging out on a fire escape. And I was like, this is perfect. So I think we've also seen like some good lower budget ones come out of this as well. But yeah, definitely doesn't feel like the same, you know, spending all this money on like these crazy graphics and like whatever it is, has as much of an impact or is, as worth it as it might be in film. [00:31:04] Dan Runcie: I feel like we've seen a few outliers here or there in music. Kanye West's music videos, especially in that, let's say 2007 to 2015, 16 range, it seemed like there was still a good amount of money that was being put into those. And even some of the extended ones that, that short form video, the short form film version of Runaway, still felt like a pretty expensive music video. And I'm pretty sure Hype Williams directed that. But I also wonder is. Is the definition of what we consider music video, and the expansion of that. Also shifting what people are putting money into and how it's categorized. And by that I'm talking about some of these documentaries that have come out and what bucket we put those in. I look at something like when Taylor Swift had recorded those pond sessions after the folklore evermore albums had come out. She essentially did an entire visual album of her at this pond or wherever. She wasn't that like Cottage and Sells and sold that to Disney, and then Disney then streams and puts that out and it's an hour or two hours or however long it is. Beyonce is recording her Coachella performance and then sells that to Netflix, and then Netflix puts that out. And you're essentially watching an alternate version of a Beyonce music video that is just over this two hour or two hour 15 minutes, however long it is. But when I think about that, I think about these visual albums and just how so many of them have spanned in, had different forms and ways they've gone about it. Is that where some of these more expensive projects are going? Is that where some of the more expensive dollars are going when looking at video as it relates to music, as opposed to just this music video bucket that we may have put it in? [00:32:53] Tati Cirisano: I think so, and I think I would also put in that category like the more. Like the short films that our music videos. And that's something that artists have been doing forever. But I mean, like, I don't know, like the Taylor Swift All Too Well video and even like, I feel like the SZA Kill Bill video was like longer than the song and like had, a lot of artists are starting to add more of a story and create more of like a short film. And I think part of that is a way to like just stand out from all the other music videos and actually grab people's attention because you are really telling a story, you're taking it to the next level. And even having parts where like the song isn't even playing, and I think you're probably right, that more of the budget that used to go to music videos, Is now going more sparingly to a few of those types of projects for the bigger artists. Whereas, l ike for what was traditionally a music video is now becoming lyric videos or sort of like these animated videos that I've seen come up that are so much cheaper to produce and often also involve AI generation, which is, an area that I feel like we haven't really touched on in all of the discourse about AI and music is like AI for music videos. And maybe that will end up lowering the cost to making these really fantastic crazy concepts that we used to see that used to cost 7 million. And now, well you can click a button. So I don't know, maybe we'll see like a reversal of what, of everything we're talking about, of like music videos kind of shrinking and instead becoming bigger. But yeah, I think you're right. [00:34:28] Dan Runcie: The point that you mentioned about music videos and just the storytelling, adding in the short film piece of it. I don't know if he was the first, but Michael Jackson Thriller is the one that comes to mind there, just with how that became this extended film. But again, not everyone was getting that much budgeter opportunity to do that in that way. Michael Jackson had built up the track record in order to make that happen, and then as you see, we continue to see that now with Taylor and others. I'm glad you mentioned the piece around lyric videos and AI, because lyric videos have long been the low-hanging fruit. Of YouTube, especially for artists. Yes, it's great to have your own music video, but sometimes people don't want that. They just wanna be able to have it there playing and Sure from a purely practical perspective, you could tell yourself. They can go listen to that and Spotify or they can just go listen to the audio version. That's what they want, but not necessarily. There are creative and unique things that you can do with music videos. It doesn't always have to be the text scrolling across the same way it would on a karaoke screen or something like that. Artists have had unique ways to go about it, and AI music videos isn't even necessarily something I necessarily thought of, but what's holding it back? You look at the same way that the images went viral of the Pope in, you know, wearing the bomber jacket or whatever it was. The same thing can happen with the music video. And when I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking again about like how we started this conversation around where some of the critiques are that people have had with music videos when they first came out. Some of the critiques, we hear now about this more user generated era of music, videos and content as well. The path and the journey. It seems that once music gets too derivative in some ways, two things happen. One, it expands and grows the pie for the overall industry, which is good because we wanna be able to see the impact in music. We wanna be able to see it grow. That's always gonna naturally attract detractors that wanna see the thing in the pure form, but nothing stopping them from seeing the thing in the pure form. But we do wanna be able to see the growth in evolution there. And AI is the next version of this where, what is the core piece that you have, whether it's the artist and the music that the rights holders have the control and ownership of, but whether it's music, video, or just other ways to do it, what are the ways that that can be unlocked? And if that can be done in a great way, that's where the potential comes. That's where you unlock all of the opportunity in the industry. And who knows, like you said, it doesn't even need to be as expensive as it was, but you're giving people the opportunity to do something unique. [00:37:06] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, and speaking of the SZA one, I don't know if this is something that she planned or if it's just something she's encouraged, but there's a whole culture on TikTok of fans making their own SZA music videos. Not copying the ones that have already been created, but making their own. And she'll repost them and comments on them and like talk about the ones that are her favorites. And that whole thing is really fascinating to me. And it even like brings me back to the lyric videos because the whole reason that the music industry started to realize, oh, we should release these music videos, was because fans were already making them and it was just revenue that the industry wasn't, and eyeballs that the industry wasn't capturing. So lyric videos were just a way to kind of formalize that, and I think we're seeing that in so many ways on TikTok with sped up songs that fans uploaded and then record labels formalized. So I don't really know where I'm going with this with music videos, but I feel like there's a connection there of like, How, video could potentially enter more of that. I mean, music videos could potentially enter more of that, UGC space. But the other thing I wanted to bring up before I forget, is that I did grab some stats from our research at MIDia about, both of those things. So just for context here. 59% of global consumers use YouTube to watch music videos weekly.  And then we had another question where we asked how do you engage with music artists beyond listening to their music? And 35% of consumers said they watch lyric videos. and that's from our Q4 22 consumer survey and our Q1 23 respectively. So, both are pretty high. [00:38:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I would say so. I wonder for some artists, the numbers that they've had for the music videos and lyric videos are probably closer than they think, right? And sometimes a lot of it just depends on what you're in the mood for. Sometimes, there's just so many more opportunities to have a passive thing in the background, and sometimes I've done it myself without even thinking, I think what is the user experience that then causes me to go to a lyric video, even when I know the music video is there. And most of the time it's when I wanna have the thing in the background. Maybe I'll go to it, but I don't necessarily wanna stare at the screen for the next few minutes and it makes perfect sense and there's so many more use cases for that. So I wouldn't be surprised if for certain artists, they both serve a purpose, but they might actually be making more from the respective lyric song. And I think when you just think about it overall, the Lyric song does enable you to have your entire album up on the streaming services guy, I guess you could technically have a few versions where I've seen some artists have the music video, they have the lyric video, and then they just have the still with the cover art of the album there. So you have three different options and that could all be, revenue that goes back to the artist and the rights solar. [00:39:53] Tati Cirisano: Mm-hmm. There's also this interesting idea of like how all these things kind of play together. Like going back to the episode that we did on, that was about YouTube and, kind of contrasting these short form video platforms and how YouTube's whole pitch is that they're able to unite long form and short form so that, you know, there isn't that gap where people watch a TikTok video about, and then they don't actually go in and learn more about the artists. So, I don't know. I think there's something interesting there with YouTube being the main place where people watch music videos. The only, like the main place, I won't say the only. And also having the short form video platform. So I think that is a really strong proposition to be able to kind of marry the two. [00:40:35] Dan Runcie: Here's a question for you similar to that I actually don't know the answer to this myself, but thinking about how like audio and music itself, we see how music has adapted over time based on the mode and the medium that it is, whether it's CDs and streaming. And then we see the impact of TikTok and everything else. And music videos we've seen similar where we knew what a an MTV era music video looked like, especially if it was a music video that's trying to be on TRL. There's almost a certain formula that you saw to it. And we also see now what a TikTok video can look like where you see the types of dances and you see the way that the music video is made almost in a way to make it easily be replicated, whether it's a Drake, Lizzo, Doja Cat, Cardi B, plenty people have done this. Do you think this exists as well with YouTube? Was there a certain type of music video that stands out to you, is Yes. This is a YouTube music video. This is a music video that personifies the YouTube era of music videos. [00:41:38] Tati Cirisano: I love that question. that's a really good question. [00:41:42] Dan Runcie: As I'm thinking about it, there's one person that did come to mind. NBA Young Boy is a person that I do think speaks to the YouTube era of music videos because he approaches this the same way that. Someone like Mr. Beast approaches videos. There is a formula there, he has his hook, he has the things. There is a bit of the storytelling dynamic of what he is trying to do, or the challenge that they're trying to overcome, and then they do the thing. But it's definitely told in this way that has the hook and the elements that you naturally see. In YouTube and the way that the font for the name of the music video scrolls up, that is very much the formula. How quick it is for the beat to start. All those types of things, I think speak a lot to the YouTube era. [00:42:27] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, I also think, I'm thinking of artists who have sort of played into meme culture with their videos, like Drake has kind of done that. Remember how meme'd the Hotline Bling video was like. Even like the video for, what's that song you have with Justin Bieber? Pop Star was like, kind of playing into like the stereotypes about them in a way. Like I think artists like them who have sort of played into internet culture in their videos are maybe part of that YouTube era. Charli XCX, the boys video felt very YouTube, Yeah, I would say things like that. And then also videos that invited user participation, like the dance video craze, where it was kind of intended to get you to make your own version. And that was kind of like the early TikTok was being YouTube. So, yeah, that's a great question. [00:43:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think we saw some of this with Instagram as well, because I think about Drake in my Feelings. That was another one where there was clearly a Instagramable place where he's saying, please repeat this, because TikTok really wasn't blowing up the way that it was then, but he clearly made this video leading into that. And if anything, I think that the video came after we saw the viral instagram clips of, what was that guy? Shaggy that was doing the dances for that music video and then Danny Le as well. So there were a few people that had done that. [00:43:55] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, the correlation is so fascinating. I could do a whole nother podcast on how Drake lyrics invented Instagram captions, but we'll save that. [00:44:09] Dan Runcie: And no, we will definitely table that one. And I think as. Yeah. No. I have a few thoughts on that one, but as I think about this, I feel like a good way to, to close this one out is thinking about the ROI of these videos. And there's a number of ways to look at it, but with the way that a video is now, what do you think the best way is to measure the ROI? Because of course there's the hard dollars that the video could generate, the impact, but what's your take on that? [00:44:36] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, aside from the things like, aside from the things that are just like hard views and streams, I think it's also about cultural impact, which is kind of impossible to measure. it's about UGC, like how many videos was. I don't know, how many people kind of created their own version or did the dance in the music video, wherever it is. I guess that kind of depends on the video, but I think there's like some element of like creations related to the video that are part of it. and then did anyone dress up for Halloween as that music video? That's the biggest measure of cultural impact. [00:45:18] Dan Runcie: Like Lil Nas X dressing up as Ice Spice [00:45:21] Tati Cirisano: Yes. Yes. And I'm sure there were people that dressed up as Drake in the hotline bling video. the scene that that came out. So, look at Halloween costume sales, all you label executives. No, I don't know it's a really hard question to answer, but I think it's, mix of those and it's increasingly about, how fans are kind of like recreating their own versions of things. [00:45:42] Dan Runcie: Because there's a clear need to, water creates something that creates shock value, but you can't do those moments automatically cuz sometimes randomly it's gun just being gunna and then, Rihanna dresses up like him for her Halloween costume in like multiple settings and stuff, and it's like, oh, okay. I guess this is a thing. Like I don't think he knew that he was putting a fit out there, but you can't always guarantee that that's what's gonna come out, right? You have artists like Da Baby that I think have always tried to do stunty things to get cloud out there, but I don't know if, I've never necessarily seen people try to dress up like him for Halloween in that way. But that's a good one, and I think at first I was like thinking you're saying it in jest, but it's a hundred percent true. Like how are you able to capture zeitgeist? And I think that checking Instagram tags especially, or hashtags or just trending topics Twitter can tell you. Yeah. definitely. [00:46:36] Tati Cirisano: Well, many gift uses did you get of a clip from the music video? [00:46:41] Dan Runcie: Exactly. Or are people creating gifts of you in some type of way? [00:46:45] Tati Cirisano: Exactly. [00:46:46] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Well, Tati, this was fun. We have a couple of topics that I know we'll dig into eventually on this, but before we let you go, what are some things that you're digging into? What should the travel listeners stay looking out for? [00:46:59] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, that's a good question, let me think. So many things. I mean, we have a new report at MIDia that'll be out next month, for clients that's about live music consumers. We did a big survey, with bands in town asking people about their attitudes towards ticket prices and all sorts of things like that.  So if you're listening and you're client of ours, look out for that. If you're not and you're interested in it, feel free to reach out. but yeah, that's the thing that I'm working on a lot right now and very excited about. [00:47:27] Dan Runcie: Nice. All right. We'll stay looking out for that. Thank you. [00:47:31] Tati Cirisano: Awesome. Thanks Dan. [00:47:32] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 15 Jun 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Do Music Videos Still Matter? (with Tati Cirisano) full Dan Runcie What’s the role of a music video today? In the 1980s, music videos flipped the industry thanks to MTV. Videos helped artists like Michael Jackson and Madonna become cultural icons. Record labels spent millions on music videos to promote their CD sales. Everyone was winning. Music videos don’t hold the same power today in the streaming era. The budgets are smaller, but they still get made.  To break it all down, I was joined by MIDiA Research analyst Tati Cirisano. Here’s what we covered: 0:52 What is the role of a music video today? 2:15 MTV’s role in music videos 7:46 Comparisons to TikTok 11:27 Music video budgets peaked in mid-90s 14:30 Napster changed everything 17:27 Music videos as career launchpads 18:50 YouTube revitalizes music videos 25:44 Range of video budgets  31:04 Big dollars going to documentaries and short films 32:53 Rise of lyric videos 41:42Does YouTube have a music video formula? 44:09Measuring ROI of music videos in 2023 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Tati Cirisano, @tatianacirisano This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Tati Cirisano: There's an argument to be made that MTV like almost invented the music video or almost like made music videos a thing because having that audience there and having that like cultural impact is what led to bigger budgets for music videos so I almost feel like MTV gets credit for like kind of inventing the music video. [00:00:19] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:47] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: This episode is all about music videos and what their value prop is in the industry today. Back in the MTV era, the role of a music video was clear. This was your four minute opportunity to sell the hell out of your artist and for your label to promote its artist. Yet fans bought into the lifestyle, the identity, the persona of this person, and get them to go to Sam Goody, go to Tower Records and buy the albums. It was a marketing channel and it was a marketing channel that the record labels were continuing to put money into, and as the effectiveness continued to grow, they put more and more. Into that and that budget exploded. By the time we got to the mid to late 90s, we saw music video budgets hitting millions of dollars, and artists were doing out of this world things in these videos. But we slowly started to see those budgets slash. Went at the introduction of Napster and the CD era started to decline and the money was no longer flowing the way that it once was. But we started to see music videos take a new turn in the YouTube era. And now in the TikTok era, what is the ROI of a music video? What role do they serve in today's industry? And to break it down, we're enjoying by Tati Cirisano, an analyst at MIDia Research. He's been on the podcast a bunch of times, and this topic was right up her alley. So we talked a bit about that and more. Hope you enjoy this episode. Here's our breakdown on the role of music videos in today's industry. [00:02:16] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we are going to take a trip down memory lane to the wonderful World of Music videos, how this art form has evolved over the years. And I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research, Tati welcome. [00:02:28] Tati Cirisano: Thank you. Good to be back once again. [00:02:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. Can I start with a story? You mind if I start with a story with this one?   So, a couple weeks ago I was catching up with, CEO from one of the major record labels. This is someone that if you're probably listening to this household, if you're probably listening to this podcast, you probably know, and they run a label that is also a household name, and they were telling me about a conversation they had with an artist who is also a household name and how this artist wanted to have a million dollar plus seven plus figure, multi-million dollar music video budget because they wanted to make this big splash with what they were doing. And the CEO was like, no, I'm not giving you that. Like, what do you think this is? And for context, this is a artist who hasn't had a big hit since George Bush's first term. Let me say that roughly, just to give some context here. So, So it's been some time, but I also was a bit surprised because this is someone who seemed like they were up with the times in tech, and I remember asking the label exec, I was like, what's the deal? I thought this artist was with this. You see the movies they're making here, there, and this, that, and the third. And he was like, Hey. You would be surprised sometimes the egos get the best of these people and this is what they want. And that was a big inspiration for this conversation because I know you and I have talked about things like Spotify versus YouTube. YouTube, of course, having such a big focus in music videos and it's role. But that's what made me think it would be a great time to take a trip down memory lane and just revisit music videos themselves and. Going back to 1981, I feel like we could start music videos well before that. That obviously was there, but I think that was the origin place for a lot of what became known as the Modern Music Video and MTV itself. What's your take on how impactful MTV was? Because there was definitely a big shift of any music videos we saw before and any music videos we saw after. [00:04:36] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, I mean, you're right that like we could start this even further. Back in history, there were artists like the Beatles were making music films in like the 60s. David Bowie did the same but there wasn't really a place to showcase them the way that MTV, like, the one that MTV created. So I feel like it's not just that really iconic, amazing music videos, like those of, like Michael Jackson and, others made MTV a thing. I feel like there's an argument to be made that MTV like almost invented the music video or almost like made music videos a thing because having that audience there and having that like cultural impact is what led to bigger budgets for music videos and labels kind of focusing on this as an art form and a promotional piece. And that also led to more interesting creative videos. So I almost feel like MTV gets credit for like kind of inventing the video, the music video. [00:05:30] Dan Runcie: And inventing the video as a distinct art form that can live on its own in distinction from the music itself, because you mentioned The Beatles, you mentioned some of those other artists from that time. Music videos almost felt more like a utility. They were a commodity. Let's put the camera up while you're recording the tune, and maybe we'll add in some things. Maybe they'll add in some B-roll. And that's what it very much existed as for years. But then MTV takes it and makes it this unique thing. And we saw from the early days, whether it was Duran Duran, David Bowie, Michael Jackson, Madonna, they were some of the early people that really made it their own thing. And you saw more of those movies and that's where MTV being able to capture the eyeballs there, the growth of cable as well, and them becoming one of the more popular channels there. You see this platform having this type of impact, you invest more dollars into it, and this becomes a much stronger marketing channel, which then commanded and justified them putting more and more money over time into these videos. [00:06:35] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, and speaking of Madonna, I think it also made music a lot more visual where music videos kind of opened this pathway for artists to become not just music icons, but kind of like style and fashion and cultural icons. there's so many videos that. Are just kind of like etched into everyone's brains and so many iconic outfits like people still dress up as, Britney Spears and the Baby One More Time Video and like all these other iconic ones. I think it, started making music more of a visual thing. And in turn, that also helped drive fandom around artists. Cuz if there's one thing I've learned in all the studying of, fandom that I've done and how it develops, it's pretty much always about context. It's always maybe listening to a song makes you a fan or doesn't make you a fan. It makes you a listener of the artist. But it's only once you know more about, who they are and like what their style is and what their aesthetic is and all these other things that you become a true fan. I think a lot of fandom was formed by sitting around the TV with friends and like watching a video for the first time on MTV. It was just a more captivating way to get to know an artist and have that context around them. [00:07:47] Dan Runcie: It's a big point, and that's something I definitely related with too. Growing up in that era, you were able to see and interact with those artists. If I had just heard these artists on the radio, it would've been a very different relationship. But I know that for a lot of people, that's how they gravitated to music. That's how they captured this, and that wasn't the way that it, I grew up for me, whether it was watching them on MTV, watching them on BET, That was the experience, and especially as things started to take off in the CD era, we saw more artists having success with it. We also started to see more pushback as well. I think it was around the early 90s, even the late eighties, this was around the time MTV was really kicking into gear. And the sales and numbers, everything was just up and to the right from a growth perspective. But we started to hear more critiques, some of the more traditionalists in the music industry started to say things like, these music videos are turning artists into one trick ponies. It's no longer about the music anymore. It's about making, Music video. And that's clearly resonating with some of the critiques. We now hear about TikTok as well. But it makes me think about the patterns that music often follows and when there is a new art form that does allow some type of growth, there's critiques, but those critiques also do stem from bit of this. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. And we've seen this time and time again where a lot of those artists that had. Had critiques about MTV, whether it was Mariah Carey in the very early days, or even groups like REM, they would go on to make some of the most iconic music videos from the 90s as well. And I think we've seen the same with whether it's streaming or TikTok music videos was one of the things that I remember as having a bit of that cyclical pattern. [00:09:32] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, and there's so many trends in music videos that I feel like now we're play, we're seeing play out on TikTok or have already seen like there was sort of the dance, video craze of like, single ladies and crank that and PSY with Gangnam style. There were all these music videos that were about getting everyone to do a dance. And that was the way, that was like the promotional thing of if you got people to do that, then they would do it at the club when the song came on, they would do it in public. It would sort of become this bigger moment. And then that was kind of the first phase of TikTok when it started to rise in the 2020 when in early 2020 was like all dance videos. and even. I remember there were some videos that people, I know we haven't gotten to YouTube yet, but when YouTube came into the equation, people were uploading their own versions of videos and now that's like a pretty common thing. But yeah, it's interesting how all this stuff is cyclical and I think like video to the stuff about, the criticisms and like being one trick ponies and that kind of thing. I think that video has kind of, with music, always been about creating a cultural moment, aside from it just being another art form that I think artists delight in taking part in. Cause it's just another way to be creative. But I think it's, it's, about creating a cultural moment and creating a cultural moment in this day and age has morphed into this concept of virality, but it's always been about the same thing. Like viral in the 90s was, people wanting to be Britney Spears in that music video I was just talking about, and it kind of like being, this thing everyone was talking about for months. The same thing is happening now on TikTok. It's just happening faster. so yeah, I think that a lot of this stuff is cyclical and those criticisms, the point is that it's a promotional tool, so of course it's gonna lead to kind of like flash in the pan moments. So, Yeah, I have complicated feelings about those criticisms, I guess. [00:11:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I do too. I understand and I think that what we saw in the next decade, especially with some of those artists that came around and ended up leaning in, said a lot about where it is. And not every artist needed to do the MTV thing. Not every artist needed to lean into it all the way. Granted, I do think that most artists had music videos to an extent, but there was clearly a wave of where things were going. And right around the mid to late 90s, We saw the peak, at least from a budget perspective, of how much money was being put into music videos. And when you're talking about creating moments and in the pre-internet era, there wasn't necessarily as much virality, but the thing that got people locked in was how visually stunning or something that you've seen that's never been seen before. It's almost this bigger was better era. And then we get to points where in the mid 90s, Both Madonna and Michael and Janet Jackson are having music videos that aren't just one or 2 million. That screen music video was rumored to be around five to 7 million depending on the source you look at, in 1995 dollars, and that's that black and white video. They're shape shifting and all this stuff. And we continued to see this over the next couple of years. Of course, hype Williams and everything that he did from music videos was always unique, is always futuristic and with all of the elements that he had there. But it took a lot of money to make those music videos the same way with NSYNC and all those no strings attached music videos. Those were multimillion dollar music videos too. And it brings me back to even the things that they would spend money on. I'm thinking about, Busta Rhymes and Janet Jackson, they had that once. It's gonna be a music video where you have the silver liquid that's like coming over. Both of them and Busta Rhymes took guitar lessons. Apparently that's what MTV's making the video thing had said in its, little popup that comes to the music video. But all of those things [00:13:24] Tati Cirisano: I missed those popups. [00:13:26] Dan Runcie: I know it was such a fun era, right? It was. It was such a, I guess a lot of that's been now disrupted by what we see on YouTube, which I know we'll get into in a minute, but that was such a moment. I think it spoke to, why people were willing to put in money at the time with just where things were with the era that was the marketing channel. Music videos were seen purely as an expense to be able to sell more CDs the same way that touring at the time was seen as an opportunity to try and sell more CDs. And the artists that sold the most often got the biggest budgets. And at the time, bigger was all often seen as better, especially when it came to the contemporary Pop X and that whole ecosystem of music, video culture, and everything around it made that take off the way it did. [00:14:13] Tati Cirisano: no, absolutely. I think the promotional power was worth it at the time. and like you said, you could justify spending that much on a music video if you were gonna make it back in CD sales if you were one of these superstars. So it made a lot of sense at the time. And then came master. [00:14:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that changed everything because and there was a fair amount of overlap there just with the way things were because so much of the industry was still focused where it was, I look at even the music video economy where there was a cyclical nature where because of the demand, The programs themselves or the channels themselves started launching programs dedicated to showcasing music videos, whether it was 106 and Park or TRL. They had different shows throughout the day, but all of them were some unique flavor of just trying to show you more music videos. And that's what was cool about it. You were able to have this whole ecosystem there, but then as you mentioned, Napster comes in, changes everything. The dollars are no longer flowing, and it. Is harder to justify spending millions of dollars on a music video if you can't confirm that that artist is gonna be able to do that. I think in a lot of ways, the peak was, we talked about them before in sync, Britney Spears, Nsync being able to sell, I think it was nearly 3 million units of an album the first week that it comes out. Like people skipping school in order to go buy, no strings attached. That just didn't happen any more to that level. I mean, we eventually saw examples like Adele and even this Taylor Swift album, but it wasn't the same way that it was then, and it shifted everything and I think it eventually Led to lower budgets. We still saw a lot of creativity. I still remember watching tons of music videos, especially in the mid to, especially in the mid two thousands. But it was definitely a different vibe cuz it was this pre and post Napster, but pre YouTube era where the budgets were still somewhat strong, but it wasn't quite what it was before. [00:16:13] Tati Cirisano: and there was this whole ecosystem before that, like, it's, kind of stunning me to remember how many different roles there were. Like music directors I feel like got a lot more shine because there were the VMAs and all these kind of things dedicated to them. But then there were the VJs of the time. and there were kind of like the. dancers and the other like characters in these videos, which kickstarted a lot of actors and actresses careers. Just being in these music videos, there was this idea of like the video vixen, which is a term I absolutely cringe to the n degree at, but like that was a role, like there was such an ecosystem around it. You're totally right and then it really so much since then. [00:16:54] Dan Runcie: When you think of the term video vixen, who's the first person that comes to mind? [00:16:58] Tati Cirisano: I think of people like Eva Mendez in the Miami video with Will Smith, I think of Scarlet Johansen. which one was she in? It was like some, [00:17:09] Dan Runcie: Justin Timberlake, what goes around comes around. [00:17:11] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, there were so many, I don't know. Alicia Silverstone I know was in a couple of music videos. Kim Kardashian was in Fallout boy, thanks for the Memories, which was a bit later and like she was already famous. But like that remembering that blows my mind. Like there were just so many of these examples. I don't know. [00:17:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah, there's a few that comes to mind. I think about someone like Vida Guerrera, like she was always in a bunch of them. Even male video vixen's too. I'm thinking [00:17:37] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. [00:17:38] Dan Runcie: Beckford and, Toni Braxton's Unbreak my heart, in that one. And then Tyrese and, what music video is that was that angel of mine with Monica. So you definitely had 'em back and forth. Even the artists themselves sometimes ended up being vixens and other ones. Terrence Howard was in a bunch of 'em. But I think that this too, it talks about just how music was a launchpad, right? You mentioned the VJs earlier. So many of these VJs started as those types of personalities, but then they went on to go do other things. I mean, Carson Daley is a media personality now doing his own thing. He got his roots in TRL. I feel like, aJ from 106 and Park still does media things suspense. Terrence Jay definitely does as well. So you see those, but you also saw it on the music video side too, where directors like Spike Jones is now doing, you know, Hollywood movies.  Look at the Daniels, they directed turn down for what? the little John's music video, and then they just directed and won an Oscar for Best Picture and best Director with everything everywhere, all at once. So music continues to be a launchpad in [00:18:45] Tati Cirisano: What a pivot. Turn Down for What to Everything Everywhere All At Once. [00:18:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah, never would've guessed that one, never would've guessed that one. And I think with that, we should probably start now talking about the YouTube era because things took another turn here. You mentioned a little bit of this earlier where user-generated videos started to take off, but I think the success of YouTube started to tell people that, Hey, The things that are going viral and getting attention. It isn't just using the most amount of money possible to see outta this world stuff. As cool as it was to see Hype Williams creating action figures of Missy Elliot running around in space, we don't necessarily need to see that much out of this world to do it. It can be Soulja boy doing his type of dance and then having all this other user generated content on Crank that Batman, crank, that Spider-Man, crank that whoever, and we saw that time and time again. So I think YouTube, and this was before any of the licensing deals came. The fact that crank that blew up became the number one single in the country stuck out in a way. And I think that led to another evolution of what people were willing to spend money on and how they thought about the promotion of music videos as well. [00:19:59] Tati Cirisano: Totally like remember the okay go music video with the treadmills. Like remember how cool we all thought that was? I mean, I'll speak for myself, but like it's like funny to think about now. That was such a big deal. That they made this like really low budget video, just kind of like running around on treadmills. And I think that's the other thing that's interesting about YouTube is, so pre MTV, there was like not really any place to showcase music videos. Then there was this channel for it, but it was really limited to the major label signed artists. And then you got to YouTube where there wasn't any gatekeeping around music videos anymore. Anything could be uploaded and anything could be played. And there was just less of that gatekeeping. But then the flip side of that is it also means that it's a lot harder to stand out. And so YouTube has, kind of made any one of those videos a bit less impactful for that reason. Over time, I think, and that gets back to like the fragmentation that, you know, I love to talk about. [00:20:57] Dan Runcie: It's fascinating because I think that each time something goes viral or each time something breaks out on YouTube, You do get a lot of copycat behavior. You see a moment where things are happening. It isn't always rational, but that's kind of the beauty of it. And then you go on to something else. I was looking at things talking about the 10 year anniversary of Harlem Shake, of that whole video wave where people were doing all those crazy dances. The music then stops, and then a couple years later we saw Black Beatles and that saw reach a whole nother level because of the freeze challenge thing that people were doing. And that was a whole nother culture with it because again, we started to see less flashiness of them trying to do particular things. But once the licensing came, music videos then became revenue generating tools. On their own and it was no longer necessarily just about trying to have a song get retired on the charts, whether it was on a 106 and Park and TRL there became the subculture of how can we get this music video to hit this? Number of streams or this hit this number of views. And I know we start to see this now more where most of the services are publicly sharing how many streams and views their songs and music videos have. But I feel like we started to see this on YouTube first, and a lot of the chatter that you would once see started to live in the comments section. And you started to see these subcultures of fans that would gravitate and connect to songs in that way. And I felt like that was something that was unique. [00:22:29] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, and there were a lot music videos, over the past, like five years, over the past 10 years, like the single ladies video and like Childish Gambino with this is America. And even like more recently, like the Kendrick Lamar video with like the AI generated faces, I forget which song that [00:22:46] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah, the hard part five. [00:22:47] Tati Cirisano: Yes. But you're totally right that rather than the go, the virality of a music video. Just being about driving streams. they also, those videos also became revenue generated themselves. So going viral on YouTube, having a video that everybody was gonna be anxious to watch, was a big deal for that. And there, I feel like there were kind of less so today, but like pre TikTok in like 2016 to like 2020. It kind of feels like there was a bit of a mini revival of like, Music videos being this bigger promotional tool, like, do you remember all the promotion around the Thank you Next video for Ariana Grande? That was nuts, like, we were all waiting weeks for that video to come out and there was so much, conversation about it and so many clips and so many interviews in the press and I feel like there was kind of a moment before TikTok came around when music videos were once again, kind of this really big promotional tool and way to kind of break through the noise and generate revenue. [00:23:47] Dan Runcie: With Thank you, next. That was the one where they spoofed mean girls, right? [00:23:51] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, and like a bunch of other of those types of movies, like there was like a clueless scene in it. I feel like there [00:23:57] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah, yeah. [00:23:57] Tati Cirisano: I feel like there were a bunch, maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I think they, they did that with like a bunch of different, like 90s and two thousands movies. And there were so many cameos. There were so many cameos. [00:24:08] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah, that's right. It did. It did. And I think a few of those music videos, you mentioned Salish Gambino as well. He's clearly someone that I think is calculated and knows what he's doing from a communication perspective, but with that video, it wasn't even necessarily about how much money was spent on this or something. It was more so here's this timely thing and there was a shock value that was linked to it, and I know that music videos have always had a bit of, have always had shock value, especially since the MTV area era think specifically about an artist like Madonna and then even Britney later on that leaned into this. But we started to see artists lean, lean into it even more from a. political standpoint, making statements and trying to say things that they wouldn't otherwise have said. And even thinking about artists like Joyner Lucas who had someone that was wearing a Make America Great again hat in their music video to then show that as some type of hypothetical conversation of what it could be like to talk to people that may think differently. I may be misremembering parts of the music video, but we started to see more of that integrate where. That then stems from how flexible this art form can be. You can have a music video like wp, which I do think was one of the more recent, you know, TikTok era music videos that created a moment. You could have them have these standalone things as well. [00:25:29] Tati Cirisano: Mm-hmm. That's exactly what I mean with how music videos give you so much more context like it's just another way for the artist to tell their story and express themselves. It's just another avenue for that, and there's so many different ways to do that. It is such a flexible art form. [00:25:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. I have a few stats here that I think would be helpful just for some context setting. As we mentioned earlier, we talked about music video budgets in the late 90s and even the early two thousands where, top artists getting million dollars plus for their music video wasn't uncommon. But here, let me share some numbers. Cardi B had shared some self-reported public numbers of things she spent on music videos just over the years. This was from two years ago, so I'm sure she's done stuff then. But Bodak Yellow, that was the music videos that they had done. That one in Dubai, that was $15,000. Granted, she was much smaller at the time. People likely weren't charging her as much, but she did that for just $15,000 and then, Bar Cardi, that was $150,000. The money music video, which did look like a pretty elaborate and not cheap music video. That was 400,000, please Me. The one that she did with Bruno Mars, that was 900,000 and then WAP was a million dollars. But those are two artists coming together, and that was also another expensive looking music video with a bunch of cameos as well. So even WAP, something that I would consider on the highest degree. Of what, major record label might be willing to spend. Even that was just a million dollars or compared to how much more they were willing to spend a couple decades before. [00:27:02] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, yeah, I mean that, that kind of doesn't surprise me. Like I feel like the ROI for music videos has just gone down a lot and it just doesn't make sense to spend much more than that on a music video. Like you can still make a splash, it can still be, a good promotional tool. And a way to, generate more revenue, but they don't tend to last as long as they used to, and it's just really hard to get people's attention on one thing these days. I think short form is also being prioritized or that's kind of the sense that I'm getting and yeah, it doesn't totally surprise me, does it? What do you think about those numbers? [00:27:44] Dan Runcie: It doesn't surprise me either because of where so much music is consumed and how things go viral. But it is a bit interesting when I think about music videos as a visual art form and what tracks and what resonates compared to other forms of entertainment where I do feel like we've continued to see bigger and bigger com, bigger and better, at least from the money that's put into these productions for major film studios, for instance, what they're putting into superhero films, what they put into Fast and Furious films, or even what James Cameron had put into Avatar. Spending 300 million, not even on the marketing, just on the budget for these movies isn't even unheard of now. So there's clearly an attraction of doing that, even if it is one of these tent pole franchise movies, even for some of the things that have gone straight to video. But that didn't necessarily happen in the same way in music videos. It started to pull. We obviously know that the industry was hit harder than others, so it pulled back. But even as the industry continued to grow, and I think, I mean, I know now the numbers unadjusted for inflation have the highest, at least revenue on the recorded side. Bigger hasn't necessarily translated to better in that perspective. Even if you look at video games, the graphics, all the things that are stunning are the things that we continue to see. And granted in, video games, we've seen a few outliers, like when Nintendo, we blew up. Clearly that wasn't a graphics thing, but they were tapping into something that Xbox and PlayStation weren't at the time. But in music videos, the bigger, better graphics of artists doing crazy things just didn't resonate in the same way, the only music video I can think of is, Ed Sheeran, what's that music video he did? I think he's kind of floating around and stuff and moving. I think it's bad habits. But one of those, I think that's probably the most recent one, but even that one I don't think is like that expensive of a music video, but we just haven't seen better. I'm thinking back to in the 90s. Yeah, I mentioned the Hype Williams music videos or even, you know, Backstreet Boys like moving around in space and larger than life. We just haven't seen that translate in that same way in music videos. [00:29:51] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. Well the other thing that you just that just made me think of when you mentioned film is how do I put this? Like album promo cycles these days are so much less premeditated, right? It's more about putting songs out and seeing how people react, and then deciding which ones to push forward as a single, then deciding what to put music, video resources behind. So I think that the other difference with music versus something like film and TV is things are just getting decided on the fly. Like a song goes viral and then you're like, okay, now we're gonna make a video for this song, but you wouldn't decide that until you saw how the songs were performing.  So I think that that's a big, big factor in it as well. But we've also seen some good, like low but lower budget music videos. Like I loved the Ice Spice Pink Panther for boys a Liar. And it was literally just them like hanging out on a fire escape. And I was like, this is perfect. So I think we've also seen like some good lower budget ones come out of this as well. But yeah, definitely doesn't feel like the same, you know, spending all this money on like these crazy graphics and like whatever it is, has as much of an impact or is, as worth it as it might be in film. [00:31:04] Dan Runcie: I feel like we've seen a few outliers here or there in music. Kanye West's music videos, especially in that, let's say 2007 to 2015, 16 range, it seemed like there was still a good amount of money that was being put into those. And even some of the extended ones that, that short form video, the short form film version of Runaway, still felt like a pretty expensive music video. And I'm pretty sure Hype Williams directed that. But I also wonder is. Is the definition of what we consider music video, and the expansion of that. Also shifting what people are putting money into and how it's categorized. And by that I'm talking about some of these documentaries that have come out and what bucket we put those in. I look at something like when Taylor Swift had recorded those pond sessions after the folklore evermore albums had come out. She essentially did an entire visual album of her at this pond or wherever. She wasn't that like Cottage and Sells and sold that to Disney, and then Disney then streams and puts that out and it's an hour or two hours or however long it is. Beyonce is recording her Coachella performance and then sells that to Netflix, and then Netflix puts that out. And you're essentially watching an alternate version of a Beyonce music video that is just over this two hour or two hour 15 minutes, however long it is. But when I think about that, I think about these visual albums and just how so many of them have spanned in, had different forms and ways they've gone about it. Is that where some of these more expensive projects are going? Is that where some of the more expensive dollars are going when looking at video as it relates to music, as opposed to just this music video bucket that we may have put it in? [00:32:53] Tati Cirisano: I think so, and I think I would also put in that category like the more. Like the short films that our music videos. And that's something that artists have been doing forever. But I mean, like, I don't know, like the Taylor Swift All Too Well video and even like, I feel like the SZA Kill Bill video was like longer than the song and like had, a lot of artists are starting to add more of a story and create more of like a short film. And I think part of that is a way to like just stand out from all the other music videos and actually grab people's attention because you are really telling a story, you're taking it to the next level. And even having parts where like the song isn't even playing, and I think you're probably right, that more of the budget that used to go to music videos, Is now going more sparingly to a few of those types of projects for the bigger artists. Whereas, l ike for what was traditionally a music video is now becoming lyric videos or sort of like these animated videos that I've seen come up that are so much cheaper to produce and often also involve AI generation, which is, an area that I feel like we haven't really touched on in all of the discourse about AI and music is like AI for music videos. And maybe that will end up lowering the cost to making these really fantastic crazy concepts that we used to see that used to cost 7 million. And now, well you can click a button. So I don't know, maybe we'll see like a reversal of what, of everything we're talking about, of like music videos kind of shrinking and instead becoming bigger. But yeah, I think you're right. [00:34:28] Dan Runcie: The point that you mentioned about music videos and just the storytelling, adding in the short film piece of it. I don't know if he was the first, but Michael Jackson Thriller is the one that comes to mind there, just with how that became this extended film. But again, not everyone was getting that much budgeter opportunity to do that in that way. Michael Jackson had built up the track record in order to make that happen, and then as you see, we continue to see that now with Taylor and others. I'm glad you mentioned the piece around lyric videos and AI, because lyric videos have long been the low-hanging fruit. Of YouTube, especially for artists. Yes, it's great to have your own music video, but sometimes people don't want that. They just wanna be able to have it there playing and Sure from a purely practical perspective, you could tell yourself. They can go listen to that and Spotify or they can just go listen to the audio version. That's what they want, but not necessarily. There are creative and unique things that you can do with music videos. It doesn't always have to be the text scrolling across the same way it would on a karaoke screen or something like that. Artists have had unique ways to go about it, and AI music videos isn't even necessarily something I necessarily thought of, but what's holding it back? You look at the same way that the images went viral of the Pope in, you know, wearing the bomber jacket or whatever it was. The same thing can happen with the music video. And when I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking again about like how we started this conversation around where some of the critiques are that people have had with music videos when they first came out. Some of the critiques, we hear now about this more user generated era of music, videos and content as well. The path and the journey. It seems that once music gets too derivative in some ways, two things happen. One, it expands and grows the pie for the overall industry, which is good because we wanna be able to see the impact in music. We wanna be able to see it grow. That's always gonna naturally attract detractors that wanna see the thing in the pure form, but nothing stopping them from seeing the thing in the pure form. But we do wanna be able to see the growth in evolution there. And AI is the next version of this where, what is the core piece that you have, whether it's the artist and the music that the rights holders have the control and ownership of, but whether it's music, video, or just other ways to do it, what are the ways that that can be unlocked? And if that can be done in a great way, that's where the potential comes. That's where you unlock all of the opportunity in the industry. And who knows, like you said, it doesn't even need to be as expensive as it was, but you're giving people the opportunity to do something unique. [00:37:06] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, and speaking of the SZA one, I don't know if this is something that she planned or if it's just something she's encouraged, but there's a whole culture on TikTok of fans making their own SZA music videos. Not copying the ones that have already been created, but making their own. And she'll repost them and comments on them and like talk about the ones that are her favorites. And that whole thing is really fascinating to me. And it even like brings me back to the lyric videos because the whole reason that the music industry started to realize, oh, we should release these music videos, was because fans were already making them and it was just revenue that the industry wasn't, and eyeballs that the industry wasn't capturing. So lyric videos were just a way to kind of formalize that, and I think we're seeing that in so many ways on TikTok with sped up songs that fans uploaded and then record labels formalized. So I don't really know where I'm going with this with music videos, but I feel like there's a connection there of like, How, video could potentially enter more of that. I mean, music videos could potentially enter more of that, UGC space. But the other thing I wanted to bring up before I forget, is that I did grab some stats from our research at MIDia about, both of those things. So just for context here. 59% of global consumers use YouTube to watch music videos weekly.  And then we had another question where we asked how do you engage with music artists beyond listening to their music? And 35% of consumers said they watch lyric videos. and that's from our Q4 22 consumer survey and our Q1 23 respectively. So, both are pretty high. [00:38:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I would say so. I wonder for some artists, the numbers that they've had for the music videos and lyric videos are probably closer than they think, right? And sometimes a lot of it just depends on what you're in the mood for. Sometimes, there's just so many more opportunities to have a passive thing in the background, and sometimes I've done it myself without even thinking, I think what is the user experience that then causes me to go to a lyric video, even when I know the music video is there. And most of the time it's when I wanna have the thing in the background. Maybe I'll go to it, but I don't necessarily wanna stare at the screen for the next few minutes and it makes perfect sense and there's so many more use cases for that. So I wouldn't be surprised if for certain artists, they both serve a purpose, but they might actually be making more from the respective lyric song. And I think when you just think about it overall, the Lyric song does enable you to have your entire album up on the streaming services guy, I guess you could technically have a few versions where I've seen some artists have the music video, they have the lyric video, and then they just have the still with the cover art of the album there. So you have three different options and that could all be, revenue that goes back to the artist and the rights solar. [00:39:53] Tati Cirisano: Mm-hmm. There's also this interesting idea of like how all these things kind of play together. Like going back to the episode that we did on, that was about YouTube and, kind of contrasting these short form video platforms and how YouTube's whole pitch is that they're able to unite long form and short form so that, you know, there isn't that gap where people watch a TikTok video about, and then they don't actually go in and learn more about the artists. So, I don't know. I think there's something interesting there with YouTube being the main place where people watch music videos. The only, like the main place, I won't say the only. And also having the short form video platform. So I think that is a really strong proposition to be able to kind of marry the two. [00:40:35] Dan Runcie: Here's a question for you similar to that I actually don't know the answer to this myself, but thinking about how like audio and music itself, we see how music has adapted over time based on the mode and the medium that it is, whether it's CDs and streaming. And then we see the impact of TikTok and everything else. And music videos we've seen similar where we knew what a an MTV era music video looked like, especially if it was a music video that's trying to be on TRL. There's almost a certain formula that you saw to it. And we also see now what a TikTok video can look like where you see the types of dances and you see the way that the music video is made almost in a way to make it easily be replicated, whether it's a Drake, Lizzo, Doja Cat, Cardi B, plenty people have done this. Do you think this exists as well with YouTube? Was there a certain type of music video that stands out to you, is Yes. This is a YouTube music video. This is a music video that personifies the YouTube era of music videos. [00:41:38] Tati Cirisano: I love that question. that's a really good question. [00:41:42] Dan Runcie: As I'm thinking about it, there's one person that did come to mind. NBA Young Boy is a person that I do think speaks to the YouTube era of music videos because he approaches this the same way that. Someone like Mr. Beast approaches videos. There is a formula there, he has his hook, he has the things. There is a bit of the storytelling dynamic of what he is trying to do, or the challenge that they're trying to overcome, and then they do the thing. But it's definitely told in this way that has the hook and the elements that you naturally see. In YouTube and the way that the font for the name of the music video scrolls up, that is very much the formula. How quick it is for the beat to start. All those types of things, I think speak a lot to the YouTube era. [00:42:27] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, I also think, I'm thinking of artists who have sort of played into meme culture with their videos, like Drake has kind of done that. Remember how meme'd the Hotline Bling video was like. Even like the video for, what's that song you have with Justin Bieber? Pop Star was like, kind of playing into like the stereotypes about them in a way. Like I think artists like them who have sort of played into internet culture in their videos are maybe part of that YouTube era. Charli XCX, the boys video felt very YouTube, Yeah, I would say things like that. And then also videos that invited user participation, like the dance video craze, where it was kind of intended to get you to make your own version. And that was kind of like the early TikTok was being YouTube. So, yeah, that's a great question. [00:43:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think we saw some of this with Instagram as well, because I think about Drake in my Feelings. That was another one where there was clearly a Instagramable place where he's saying, please repeat this, because TikTok really wasn't blowing up the way that it was then, but he clearly made this video leading into that. And if anything, I think that the video came after we saw the viral instagram clips of, what was that guy? Shaggy that was doing the dances for that music video and then Danny Le as well. So there were a few people that had done that. [00:43:55] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, the correlation is so fascinating. I could do a whole nother podcast on how Drake lyrics invented Instagram captions, but we'll save that. [00:44:09] Dan Runcie: And no, we will definitely table that one. And I think as. Yeah. No. I have a few thoughts on that one, but as I think about this, I feel like a good way to, to close this one out is thinking about the ROI of these videos. And there's a number of ways to look at it, but with the way that a video is now, what do you think the best way is to measure the ROI? Because of course there's the hard dollars that the video could generate, the impact, but what's your take on that? [00:44:36] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, aside from the things like, aside from the things that are just like hard views and streams, I think it's also about cultural impact, which is kind of impossible to measure. it's about UGC, like how many videos was. I don't know, how many people kind of created their own version or did the dance in the music video, wherever it is. I guess that kind of depends on the video, but I think there's like some element of like creations related to the video that are part of it. and then did anyone dress up for Halloween as that music video? That's the biggest measure of cultural impact. [00:45:18] Dan Runcie: Like Lil Nas X dressing up as Ice Spice [00:45:21] Tati Cirisano: Yes. Yes. And I'm sure there were people that dressed up as Drake in the hotline bling video. the scene that that came out. So, look at Halloween costume sales, all you label executives. No, I don't know it's a really hard question to answer, but I think it's, mix of those and it's increasingly about, how fans are kind of like recreating their own versions of things. [00:45:42] Dan Runcie: Because there's a clear need to, water creates something that creates shock value, but you can't do those moments automatically cuz sometimes randomly it's gun just being gunna and then, Rihanna dresses up like him for her Halloween costume in like multiple settings and stuff, and it's like, oh, okay. I guess this is a thing. Like I don't think he knew that he was putting a fit out there, but you can't always guarantee that that's what's gonna come out, right? You have artists like Da Baby that I think have always tried to do stunty things to get cloud out there, but I don't know if, I've never necessarily seen people try to dress up like him for Halloween in that way. But that's a good one, and I think at first I was like thinking you're saying it in jest, but it's a hundred percent true. Like how are you able to capture zeitgeist? And I think that checking Instagram tags especially, or hashtags or just trending topics Twitter can tell you. Yeah. definitely. [00:46:36] Tati Cirisano: Well, many gift uses did you get of a clip from the music video? [00:46:41] Dan Runcie: Exactly. Or are people creating gifts of you in some type of way? [00:46:45] Tati Cirisano: Exactly. [00:46:46] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Well, Tati, this was fun. We have a couple of topics that I know we'll dig into eventually on this, but before we let you go, what are some things that you're digging into? What should the travel listeners stay looking out for? [00:46:59] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, that's a good question, let me think. So many things. I mean, we have a new report at MIDia that'll be out next month, for clients that's about live music consumers. We did a big survey, with bands in town asking people about their attitudes towards ticket prices and all sorts of things like that.  So if you're listening and you're client of ours, look out for that. If you're not and you're interested in it, feel free to reach out. but yeah, that's the thing that I'm working on a lot right now and very excited about. [00:47:27] Dan Runcie: Nice. All right. We'll stay looking out for that. Thank you. [00:47:31] Tati Cirisano: Awesome. Thanks Dan. [00:47:32] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. What’s the role of a music video today? In the 1980s, music videos flipped the industry thanks to MTV. Videos helped artists like Michael Jackson and Madonna become cultural icons. Record labels spent millions on music videos to promote their CD sales. Everyone was winning.


Music videos don’t hold the same power today in the streaming era. The budgets are smaller, but they still get made. 


To break it all down, I was joined by MIDiA Research analyst Tati Cirisano. Here’s what we covered:


0:52 What is the role of a music video today?

2:15 MTV’s role in music videos

7:46 Comparisons to TikTok

11:27 Music video budgets peaked in mid-90s

14:30 Napster changed everything

17:27 Music videos as career launchpads

18:50 YouTube revitalizes music videos

25:44 Range of video budgets 

31:04 Big dollars going to documentaries and short films

32:53 Rise of lyric videos

41:42Does YouTube have a music video formula?

44:09Measuring ROI of music videos in 2023


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Tati Cirisano, @tatianacirisano


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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Tati Cirisano: There's an argument to be made that MTV like almost invented the music video or almost like made music videos a thing because having that audience there and having that like cultural impact is what led to bigger budgets for music videos so I almost feel like MTV gets credit for like kind of inventing the music video.

[00:00:19] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:47] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: This episode is all about music videos and what their value prop is in the industry today. Back in the MTV era, the role of a music video was clear. This was your four minute opportunity to sell the hell out of your artist and for your label to promote its artist. Yet fans bought into the lifestyle, the identity, the persona of this person, and get them to go to Sam Goody, go to Tower Records and buy the albums.

It was a marketing channel and it was a marketing channel that the record labels were continuing to put money into, and as the effectiveness continued to grow, they put more and more. Into that and that budget exploded. By the time we got to the mid to late 90s, we saw music video budgets hitting millions of dollars, and artists were doing out of this world things in these videos.

But we slowly started to see those budgets slash. Went at the introduction of Napster and the CD era started to decline and the money was no longer flowing the way that it once was. But we started to see music videos take a new turn in the YouTube era. And now in the TikTok era, what is the ROI of a music video?

What role do they serve in today's industry? And to break it down, we're enjoying by Tati Cirisano, an analyst at MIDia Research. He's been on the podcast a bunch of times, and this topic was right up her alley. So we talked a bit about that and more. Hope you enjoy this episode. Here's our breakdown on the role of music videos in today's industry.

[00:02:16] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we are going to take a trip down memory lane to the wonderful World of Music videos, how this art form has evolved over the years. And I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research, Tati welcome.

[00:02:28] Tati Cirisano: Thank you. Good to be

back once again.

[00:02:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. Can I start with a story? You mind if I start with a story with this one?

 

So, a couple weeks ago I was catching up with, CEO from one of the major record labels. This is someone that if you're probably listening to this household, if you're probably listening to this podcast, you probably know, and they run a label that is also a household name, and they were telling me about a conversation they had with an artist who is also a household name and how this artist wanted to have a million dollar plus seven plus figure, multi-million dollar music video budget because they wanted to make this big splash with what they were doing. And the CEO was like, no, I'm not giving you that. Like, what do you think this is? And for context, this is a artist who hasn't had a big hit since George Bush's first term. Let me say that roughly, just to give some context here. So,

So it's been some time, but I also was a bit surprised because this is someone who seemed like they were up with the times in tech, and I remember asking the label exec, I was like, what's the deal? I thought this artist was with this. You see the movies they're making here, there, and this, that, and the third.

And he was like, Hey. You would be surprised sometimes the egos get the best of these people and this is what they want. And that was a big inspiration for this conversation because I know you and I have talked about things like Spotify versus YouTube. YouTube, of course, having such a big focus in music videos and it's role.

But that's what made me think it would be a great time to take a trip down memory lane and just revisit music videos themselves and. Going back to 1981, I feel like we could start music videos well before that. That obviously was there, but I think that was the origin place for a lot of what became known as the Modern Music Video and MTV itself.

What's your take on how impactful MTV was? Because there was definitely a big shift of any music videos we saw before and any music videos we saw after.

[00:04:36] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, I mean, you're right that like we could start this even further. Back in history, there were artists like the Beatles were making music films in like the 60s. David Bowie did the same but there wasn't really a place to showcase them the way that MTV, like, the one that MTV created. So I feel like it's not just that really iconic, amazing music videos, like those of, like Michael Jackson and, others made MTV a thing.

I feel like there's an argument to be made that MTV like almost invented the music video or almost like made music videos a thing because having that audience there and having that like cultural impact is what led to bigger budgets for music videos and labels kind of focusing on this as an art form and a promotional piece.

And that also led to more interesting creative videos. So I almost feel like MTV gets credit for like kind of inventing the video, the music video.

[00:05:30] Dan Runcie: And inventing the video as a distinct art form that can live on its own in distinction from the music itself, because you mentioned The Beatles, you mentioned some of those other artists from that time. Music videos almost felt more like a utility. They were a commodity. Let's put the camera up while you're recording the tune, and maybe we'll add in some things.

Maybe they'll add in some B-roll. And that's what it very much existed as for years. But then MTV takes it and makes it this unique thing. And we saw from the early days, whether it was Duran Duran, David Bowie, Michael Jackson, Madonna, they were some of the early people that really made it their own thing.

And you saw more of those movies and that's where MTV being able to capture the eyeballs there, the growth of cable as well, and them becoming one of the more popular channels there. You see this platform having this type of impact, you invest more dollars into it, and this becomes a much stronger marketing channel, which then commanded and justified them putting more and more money over time into these videos.

[00:06:35] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, and speaking of Madonna, I think it also made music a lot more visual where music videos kind of opened this pathway for artists to become not just music icons, but kind of like style and fashion and cultural icons. there's so many videos that. Are just kind of like etched into everyone's brains and so many iconic outfits like people still dress up as, Britney Spears and the Baby One More Time Video and like all these other iconic ones. I think it, started making music more of a visual thing. And in turn, that also helped drive fandom around artists. Cuz if there's one thing I've learned in all the studying of, fandom that I've done and how it develops, it's pretty much always about context.

It's always maybe listening to a song makes you a fan or doesn't make you a fan. It makes you a listener of the artist. But it's only once you know more about, who they are and like what their style is and what their aesthetic is and all these other things that you become a true fan. I think a lot of fandom was formed by sitting around the TV with friends and like watching a video for the first time on MTV.

It was just a more captivating way to get to know an artist and have that context around them.

[00:07:47] Dan Runcie: It's a big point, and that's something I definitely related with too. Growing up in that era, you were able to see and interact with those artists. If I had just heard these artists on the radio, it would've been a very different relationship. But I know that for a lot of people, that's how they gravitated to music.

That's how they captured this, and that wasn't the way that it, I grew up for me, whether it was watching them on MTV, watching them on BET, That was the experience, and especially as things started to take off in the CD era, we saw more artists having success with it. We also started to see more pushback as well.

I think it was around the early 90s, even the late eighties, this was around the time MTV was really kicking into gear. And the sales and numbers, everything was just up and to the right from a growth perspective. But we started to hear more critiques, some of the more traditionalists in the music industry started to say things like, these music videos are turning artists into one trick ponies.

It's no longer about the music anymore. It's about making, Music video. And that's clearly resonating with some of the critiques. We now hear about TikTok as well. But it makes me think about the patterns that music often follows and when there is a new art form that does allow some type of growth, there's critiques, but those critiques also do stem from bit of this.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. And we've seen this time and time again where a lot of those artists that had. Had critiques about MTV, whether it was Mariah Carey in the very early days, or even groups like REM, they would go on to make some of the most iconic music videos from the 90s as well.

And I think we've seen the same with whether it's streaming or TikTok music videos was one of the things that I remember as having a bit of that cyclical pattern.

[00:09:32] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, and there's so many trends in music videos that I feel like now we're play, we're seeing play out on TikTok or have already seen like there was sort of the dance, video craze of like, single ladies and crank that and PSY with Gangnam style.

There were all these music videos that were about getting everyone to do a dance. And that was the way, that was like the promotional thing of if you got people to do that, then they would do it at the club when the song came on, they would do it in public. It would sort of become this bigger moment. And then that was kind of the first phase of TikTok when it started to rise in the 2020 when in early 2020 was like all dance videos.

and even. I remember there were some videos that people, I know we haven't gotten to YouTube yet, but when YouTube came into the equation, people were uploading their own versions of videos and now that's like a pretty common thing. But yeah, it's interesting how all this stuff is cyclical and I think like video to the stuff about, the criticisms and like being one trick ponies and that kind of thing.

I think that video has kind of, with music, always been about creating a cultural moment, aside from it just being another art form that I think artists delight in taking part in. Cause it's just another way to be creative. But I think it's, it's, about creating a cultural moment and creating a cultural moment in this day and age has morphed into this concept of virality, but it's always been about the same thing.

Like viral in the 90s was, people wanting to be Britney Spears in that music video I was just talking about, and it kind of like being, this thing everyone was talking about for months. The same thing is happening now on TikTok. It's just happening faster. so yeah, I think that a lot of this stuff is cyclical and those criticisms, the point is that it's a promotional tool, so of course it's gonna lead to kind of like flash in the pan moments.

So, Yeah, I have complicated feelings about those criticisms, I guess.

[00:11:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I do too. I understand and I think that what we saw in the next decade, especially with some of those artists that came around and ended up leaning in, said a lot about where it is. And not every artist needed to do the MTV thing. Not every artist needed to lean into it all the way. Granted, I do think that most artists had music videos to an extent, but there was clearly a wave of where things were going.

And right around the mid to late 90s, We saw the peak, at least from a budget perspective, of how much money was being put into music videos. And when you're talking about creating moments and in the pre-internet era, there wasn't necessarily as much virality, but the thing that got people locked in was how visually stunning or something that you've seen that's never been seen before.

It's almost this bigger was better era. And then we get to points where in the mid 90s, Both Madonna and Michael and Janet Jackson are having music videos that aren't just one or 2 million. That screen music video was rumored to be around five to 7 million depending on the source you look at, in 1995 dollars, and that's that black and white video.

They're shape shifting and all this stuff. And we continued to see this over the next couple of years. Of course, hype Williams and everything that he did from music videos was always unique, is always futuristic and with all of the elements that he had there. But it took a lot of money to make those music videos the same way with NSYNC and all those no strings attached music videos.

Those were multimillion dollar music videos too. And it brings me back to even the things that they would spend money on. I'm thinking about, Busta Rhymes and Janet Jackson, they had that once. It's gonna be a music video where you have the silver liquid that's like coming over. Both of them and Busta Rhymes took guitar lessons.

Apparently that's what MTV's making the video thing had said in its, little popup that comes to the music video. But all of those

things

[00:13:24] Tati Cirisano: I missed those popups.

[00:13:26] Dan Runcie: I know it was such a fun era, right? It was. It was such a, I guess a lot of that's been now disrupted by what we see on YouTube, which I know we'll get into in a minute, but that was such a moment.

I think it spoke to, why people were willing to put in money at the time with just where things were with the era that was the marketing channel. Music videos were seen purely as an expense to be able to sell more CDs the same way that touring at the time was seen as an opportunity to try and sell more CDs.

And the artists that sold the most often got the biggest budgets. And at the time, bigger was all often seen as better, especially when it came to the contemporary Pop X and that whole ecosystem of music, video culture, and everything around it made that take off the way it did.

[00:14:13] Tati Cirisano: no, absolutely. I think the promotional power was worth it at the time. and like you said, you could justify spending that much on a music video if you were gonna make it back in CD sales if you were one of these superstars. So it made a lot of sense at the time. And then came master.

[00:14:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that changed everything because and there was a fair amount of overlap there just with the way things were because so much of the industry was still focused where it was, I look at even the music video economy where there was a cyclical nature where because of the demand, The programs themselves or the channels themselves started launching programs dedicated to showcasing music videos, whether it was 106 and Park or TRL.

They had different shows throughout the day, but all of them were some unique flavor of just trying to show you more music videos. And that's what was cool about it. You were able to have this whole ecosystem there, but then as you mentioned, Napster comes in, changes everything. The dollars are no longer flowing, and it.

Is harder to justify spending millions of dollars on a music video if you can't confirm that that artist is gonna be able to do that. I think in a lot of ways, the peak was, we talked about them before in sync, Britney Spears, Nsync being able to sell, I think it was nearly 3 million units of an album the first week that it comes out.

Like people skipping school in order to go buy, no strings attached. That just didn't happen any more to that level. I mean, we eventually saw examples like Adele and even this Taylor Swift album, but it wasn't the same way that it was then, and it shifted everything and I think it eventually Led to lower budgets.

We still saw a lot of creativity. I still remember watching tons of music videos, especially in the mid to, especially in the mid two thousands. But it was definitely a different vibe cuz it was this pre and post Napster, but pre YouTube era where the budgets were still somewhat strong, but it wasn't quite what it was before.

[00:16:13] Tati Cirisano: and there was this whole ecosystem before that, like, it's, kind of stunning me to remember how many different roles there were. Like music directors I feel like got a lot more shine because there were the VMAs and all these kind of things dedicated to them. But then there were the VJs of the time.

and there were kind of like the. dancers and the other like characters in these videos, which kickstarted a lot of actors and actresses careers. Just being in these music videos, there was this idea of like the video vixen, which is a term I absolutely cringe to the n degree at, but like that was a role, like there was such an ecosystem around it. You're totally right and then it really so much since then.

[00:16:54] Dan Runcie: When you think of the term video vixen, who's the first person that comes to mind?

[00:16:58] Tati Cirisano: I think of people like Eva Mendez in the Miami video with Will Smith, I think of Scarlet Johansen. which one was she in? It was like some,

[00:17:09] Dan Runcie: Justin Timberlake, what goes around comes around.

[00:17:11] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, there were so many, I don't know. Alicia Silverstone I know was in a couple of music videos. Kim Kardashian was in Fallout boy, thanks for the Memories, which was a bit later and like she was already famous. But like that remembering that blows my mind. Like there were just so many of these examples. I don't know.

[00:17:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah, there's a few that comes to mind. I think about someone like Vida Guerrera, like she was always in a bunch of them. Even male video vixen's too. I'm thinking

[00:17:37] Tati Cirisano: Yeah.

[00:17:38] Dan Runcie: Beckford and, Toni Braxton's Unbreak my heart, in that one. And then Tyrese and, what music video is that was that angel of mine with Monica.

So you definitely had 'em back and forth. Even the artists themselves sometimes ended up being vixens and other ones. Terrence Howard was in a bunch of 'em. But I think that this too, it talks about just how music was a launchpad, right? You mentioned the VJs earlier. So many of these VJs started as those types of personalities, but then they went on to go do other things.

I mean, Carson Daley is a media personality now doing his own thing. He got his roots in TRL. I feel like, aJ from 106 and Park still does media things suspense. Terrence Jay definitely does as well. So you see those, but you also saw it on the music video side too, where directors like Spike Jones is now doing, you know, Hollywood movies.

 Look at the Daniels, they directed turn down for what? the little John's music video, and then they just directed and won an Oscar for Best Picture and best Director with everything everywhere, all at once. So music continues to be a launchpad in

[00:18:45] Tati Cirisano: What a pivot. Turn Down for What to Everything Everywhere All At Once.

[00:18:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah, never would've guessed that one, never would've guessed that one. And I think with that, we should probably start now talking about the YouTube era because things took another turn here. You mentioned a little bit of this earlier where user-generated videos started to take off, but I think the success of YouTube started to tell people that, Hey, The things that are going viral and getting attention.

It isn't just using the most amount of money possible to see outta this world stuff. As cool as it was to see Hype Williams creating action figures of Missy Elliot running around in space, we don't necessarily need to see that much out of this world to do it. It can be Soulja boy doing his type of dance and then having all this other user generated content on Crank that Batman, crank, that Spider-Man, crank that whoever, and we saw that time and time again.

So I think YouTube, and this was before any of the licensing deals came. The fact that crank that blew up became the number one single in the country stuck out in a way. And I think that led to another evolution of what people were willing to spend money on and how they thought about the promotion of music videos as well.

[00:19:59] Tati Cirisano: Totally like remember the okay go music video with the treadmills. Like remember how cool we all thought that was? I mean, I'll speak for myself, but like it's like funny to think about now. That was such a big deal. That they made this like really low budget video, just kind of like running around on treadmills.

And I think that's the other thing that's interesting about YouTube is, so pre MTV, there was like not really any place to showcase music videos. Then there was this channel for it, but it was really limited to the major label signed artists. And then you got to YouTube where there wasn't any gatekeeping around music videos anymore.

Anything could be uploaded and anything could be played. And there was just less of that gatekeeping. But then the flip side of that is it also means that it's a lot harder to stand out. And so YouTube has, kind of made any one of those videos a bit less impactful for that reason. Over time, I think, and that gets back to like the fragmentation that, you know, I love to talk about.

[00:20:57] Dan Runcie: It's fascinating because I think that each time something goes viral or each time something breaks out on YouTube, You do get a lot of copycat behavior. You see a moment where things are happening. It isn't always rational, but that's kind of the beauty of it. And then you go on to something else. I was looking at things talking about the 10 year anniversary of Harlem Shake, of that whole video wave where people were doing all those crazy dances.

The music then stops, and then a couple years later we saw Black Beatles and that saw reach a whole nother level because of the freeze challenge thing that people were doing. And that was a whole nother culture with it because again, we started to see less flashiness of them trying to do particular things.

But once the licensing came, music videos then became revenue generating tools. On their own and it was no longer necessarily just about trying to have a song get retired on the charts, whether it was on a 106 and Park and TRL there became the subculture of how can we get this music video to hit this?

Number of streams or this hit this number of views. And I know we start to see this now more where most of the services are publicly sharing how many streams and views their songs and music videos have. But I feel like we started to see this on YouTube first, and a lot of the chatter that you would once see started to live in the comments section.

And you started to see these subcultures of fans that would gravitate and connect to songs in that way. And I felt like that was something that was unique.

[00:22:29] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, and there were a lot music videos, over the past, like five years, over the past 10 years, like the single ladies video and like Childish Gambino with this is America. And even like more recently, like the Kendrick Lamar video with like the AI generated faces, I forget which song that

[00:22:46] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah, the hard part five.

[00:22:47] Tati Cirisano: Yes. But you're totally right that rather than the go, the virality of a music video. Just being about driving streams. they also, those videos also became revenue generated themselves. So going viral on YouTube, having a video that everybody was gonna be anxious to watch, was a big deal for that.

And there, I feel like there were kind of less so today, but like pre TikTok in like 2016 to like 2020. It kind of feels like there was a bit of a mini revival of like, Music videos being this bigger promotional tool, like, do you remember all the promotion around the Thank you Next video for Ariana Grande?

That was nuts, like, we were all waiting weeks for that video to come out and there was so much, conversation about it and so many clips and so many interviews in the press and I feel like there was kind of a moment before TikTok came around when music videos were once again, kind of this really big promotional tool and way to kind of break through the noise and generate revenue.

[00:23:47] Dan Runcie: With Thank you, next. That was the one where they spoofed mean girls, right?

[00:23:51] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, and like a bunch of other of those types of movies, like there was like a clueless scene in it. I feel like there

[00:23:57] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah, yeah.

[00:23:57] Tati Cirisano: I feel like there were a bunch, maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I think they, they did that with like a bunch of different, like 90s and two thousands movies. And there were so many cameos. There were so many cameos.

[00:24:08] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah, that's right. It did. It did. And I think a few of those music videos, you mentioned Salish Gambino as well. He's clearly someone that I think is calculated and knows what he's doing from a communication perspective, but with that video, it wasn't even necessarily about how much money was spent on this or something. It was more so here's this timely thing and there was a shock value that was linked to it, and I know that music videos have always had a bit of, have always had shock value, especially since the MTV area era think specifically about an artist like Madonna and then even Britney later on that leaned into this.

But we started to see artists lean, lean into it even more from a. political standpoint, making statements and trying to say things that they wouldn't otherwise have said. And even thinking about artists like Joyner Lucas who had someone that was wearing a Make America Great again hat in their music video to then show that as some type of hypothetical conversation of what it could be like to talk to people that may think differently.

I may be misremembering parts of the music video, but we started to see more of that integrate where. That then stems from how flexible this art form can be. You can have a music video like wp, which I do think was one of the more recent, you know, TikTok era music videos that created a moment. You could have them have these standalone things as well.

[00:25:29] Tati Cirisano: Mm-hmm. That's exactly what I mean with how music videos give you so much more context like it's just another way for the artist to tell their story and express themselves. It's just another avenue for that, and there's so many different ways to do that. It is such a flexible art form.

[00:25:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. I have a few stats here that I think would be helpful just for some context setting. As we mentioned earlier, we talked about music video budgets in the late 90s and even the early two thousands where, top artists getting million dollars plus for their music video wasn't uncommon.

But here, let me share some numbers. Cardi B had shared some self-reported public numbers of things she spent on music videos just over the years. This was from two years ago, so I'm sure she's done stuff then. But Bodak Yellow, that was the music videos that they had done. That one in Dubai, that was $15,000.

Granted, she was much smaller at the time. People likely weren't charging her as much, but she did that for just $15,000 and then, Bar Cardi, that was $150,000. The money music video, which did look like a pretty elaborate and not cheap music video. That was 400,000, please Me. The one that she did with Bruno Mars, that was 900,000 and then WAP was a million dollars.

But those are two artists coming together, and that was also another expensive looking music video with a bunch of cameos as well. So even WAP, something that I would consider on the highest degree. Of what, major record label might be willing to spend. Even that was just a million dollars or compared to how much more they were willing to spend a couple decades before.

[00:27:02] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, yeah, I mean that, that kind of doesn't surprise me. Like I feel like the ROI for music videos has just gone down a lot and it just doesn't make sense to spend much more than that on a music video. Like you can still make a splash, it can still be, a good promotional tool. And a way to, generate more revenue, but they don't tend to last as long as they used to, and it's just really hard to get people's attention on one thing these days.

I think short form is also being prioritized or that's kind of the sense that I'm getting and yeah, it doesn't totally surprise me, does it? What do you think about those numbers?

[00:27:44] Dan Runcie: It doesn't surprise me either because of where so much music is consumed and how things go viral. But it is a bit interesting when I think about music videos as a visual art form and what tracks and what resonates compared to other forms of entertainment where I do feel like we've continued to see bigger and bigger com, bigger and better, at least from the money that's put into these productions for major film studios, for instance, what they're putting into superhero films, what they put into Fast and Furious films, or even what James Cameron had put into Avatar. Spending 300 million, not even on the marketing, just on the budget for these movies isn't even unheard of now. So there's clearly an attraction of doing that, even if it is one of these tent pole franchise movies, even for some of the things that have gone straight to video.

But that didn't necessarily happen in the same way in music videos. It started to pull. We obviously know that the industry was hit harder than others, so it pulled back. But even as the industry continued to grow, and I think, I mean, I know now the numbers unadjusted for inflation have the highest, at least revenue on the recorded side.

Bigger hasn't necessarily translated to better in that perspective. Even if you look at video games, the graphics, all the things that are stunning are the things that we continue to see. And granted in, video games, we've seen a few outliers, like when Nintendo, we blew up. Clearly that wasn't a graphics thing, but they were tapping into something that Xbox and PlayStation weren't at the time.

But in music videos, the bigger, better graphics of artists doing crazy things just didn't resonate in the same way, the only music video I can think of is, Ed Sheeran, what's that music video he did? I think he's kind of floating around and stuff and moving. I think it's bad habits. But one of those, I think that's probably the most recent one, but even that one I don't think is like that expensive of a music video, but we just haven't seen better.

I'm thinking back to in the 90s. Yeah, I mentioned the Hype Williams music videos or even, you know, Backstreet Boys like moving around in space and larger than life. We just haven't seen that translate in that same way in music videos.

[00:29:51] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. Well the other thing that you just that just made me think of when you mentioned film is how do I put this? Like album promo cycles these days are so much less premeditated, right? It's more about putting songs out and seeing how people react, and then deciding which ones to push forward as a single, then deciding what to put music, video resources behind.

So I think that the other difference with music versus something like film and TV is things are just getting decided on the fly. Like a song goes viral and then you're like, okay, now we're gonna make a video for this song, but you wouldn't decide that until you saw how the songs were performing.

 So I think that that's a big, big factor in it as well. But we've also seen some good, like low but lower budget music videos. Like I loved the Ice Spice Pink Panther for boys a Liar. And it was literally just them like hanging out on a fire escape. And I was like, this is perfect. So I think we've also seen like some good lower budget ones come out of this as well.

But yeah, definitely doesn't feel like the same, you know, spending all this money on like these crazy graphics and like whatever it is, has as much of an impact or is, as worth it as it might be in film.

[00:31:04] Dan Runcie: I feel like we've seen a few outliers here or there in music. Kanye West's music videos, especially in that, let's say 2007 to 2015, 16 range, it seemed like there was still a good amount of money that was being put into those. And even some of the extended ones that, that short form video, the short form film version of Runaway, still felt like a pretty expensive music video.

And I'm pretty sure Hype Williams directed that. But I also wonder is. Is the definition of what we consider music video, and the expansion of that. Also shifting what people are putting money into and how it's categorized. And by that I'm talking about some of these documentaries that have come out and what bucket we put those in.

I look at something like when Taylor Swift had recorded those pond sessions after the folklore evermore albums had come out. She essentially did an entire visual album of her at this pond or wherever. She wasn't that like Cottage and Sells and sold that to Disney, and then Disney then streams and puts that out and it's an hour or two hours or however long it is.

Beyonce is recording her Coachella performance and then sells that to Netflix, and then Netflix puts that out. And you're essentially watching an alternate version of a Beyonce music video that is just over this two hour or two hour 15 minutes, however long it is. But when I think about that, I think about these visual albums and just how so many of them have spanned in, had different forms and ways they've gone about it. Is that where some of these more expensive projects are going? Is that where some of the more expensive dollars are going when looking at video as it relates to music, as opposed to just this music video bucket that we may have put it in?

[00:32:53] Tati Cirisano: I think so, and I think I would also put in that category like the more. Like the short films that our music videos. And that's something that artists have been doing forever. But I mean, like, I don't know, like the Taylor Swift All Too Well video and even like, I feel like the SZA Kill Bill video was like longer than the song and like had, a lot of artists are starting to add more of a story and create more of like a short film. And I think part of that is a way to like just stand out from all the other music videos and actually grab people's attention because you are really telling a story, you're taking it to the next level. And even having parts where like the song isn't even playing, and I think you're probably right, that more of the budget that used to go to music videos, Is now going more sparingly to a few of those types of projects for the bigger artists. Whereas, l ike for what was traditionally a music video is now becoming lyric videos or sort of like these animated videos that I've seen come up that are so much cheaper to produce and often also involve AI generation, which is, an area that I feel like we haven't really touched on in all of the discourse about AI and music is like AI for music videos.

And maybe that will end up lowering the cost to making these really fantastic crazy concepts that we used to see that used to cost 7 million. And now, well you can click a button. So I don't know, maybe we'll see like a reversal of what, of everything we're talking about, of like music videos kind of shrinking and instead becoming bigger. But yeah, I think you're right.

[00:34:28] Dan Runcie: The point that you mentioned about music videos and just the storytelling, adding in the short film piece of it. I don't know if he was the first, but Michael Jackson Thriller is the one that comes to mind there, just with how that became this extended film. But again, not everyone was getting that much budgeter opportunity to do that in that way.

Michael Jackson had built up the track record in order to make that happen, and then as you see, we continue to see that now with Taylor and others. I'm glad you mentioned the piece around lyric videos and AI, because lyric videos have long been the low-hanging fruit. Of YouTube, especially for artists.

Yes, it's great to have your own music video, but sometimes people don't want that. They just wanna be able to have it there playing and Sure from a purely practical perspective, you could tell yourself. They can go listen to that and Spotify or they can just go listen to the audio version. That's what they want, but not necessarily.

There are creative and unique things that you can do with music videos. It doesn't always have to be the text scrolling across the same way it would on a karaoke screen or something like that. Artists have had unique ways to go about it, and AI music videos isn't even necessarily something I necessarily thought of, but what's holding it back? You look at the same way that the images went viral of the Pope in, you know, wearing the bomber jacket or whatever it was. The same thing can happen with the music video. And when I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking again about like how we started this conversation around where some of the critiques are that people have had with music videos when they first came out. Some of the critiques, we hear now about this more user generated era of music, videos and content as well. The path and the journey. It seems that once music gets too derivative in some ways, two things happen. One, it expands and grows the pie for the overall industry, which is good because we wanna be able to see the impact in music.

We wanna be able to see it grow. That's always gonna naturally attract detractors that wanna see the thing in the pure form, but nothing stopping them from seeing the thing in the pure form. But we do wanna be able to see the growth in evolution there. And AI is the next version of this where, what is the core piece that you have, whether it's the artist and the music that the rights holders have the control and ownership of, but whether it's music, video, or just other ways to do it, what are the ways that that can be unlocked? And if that can be done in a great way, that's where the potential comes.

That's where you unlock all of the opportunity in the industry. And who knows, like you said, it doesn't even need to be as expensive as it was, but you're giving people the opportunity to do something unique.

[00:37:06] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, and speaking of the SZA one, I don't know if this is something that she planned or if it's just something she's encouraged, but there's a whole culture on TikTok of fans making their own SZA music videos. Not copying the ones that have already been created, but making their own. And she'll repost them and comments on them and like talk about the ones that are her favorites. And that whole thing is really fascinating to me. And it even like brings me back to the lyric videos because the whole reason that the music industry started to realize, oh, we should release these music videos, was because fans were already making them and it was just revenue that the industry wasn't, and eyeballs that the industry wasn't capturing.

So lyric videos were just a way to kind of formalize that, and I think we're seeing that in so many ways on TikTok with sped up songs that fans uploaded and then record labels formalized. So I don't really know where I'm going with this with music videos, but I feel like there's a connection there of like, How, video could potentially enter more of that. I mean, music videos could potentially enter more of that, UGC space. But the other thing I wanted to bring up before I forget, is that I did grab some stats from our research at MIDia about, both of those things. So just for context here. 59% of global consumers use YouTube to watch music videos weekly.

 And then we had another question where we asked how do you engage with music artists beyond listening to their music? And 35% of consumers said they watch lyric videos. and that's from our Q4 22 consumer survey and our Q1 23 respectively. So, both are

pretty high.

[00:38:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I would say so. I wonder for some artists, the numbers that they've had for the music videos and lyric videos are probably closer than they think, right? And sometimes a lot of it just depends on what you're in the mood for. Sometimes, there's just so many more opportunities to have a passive thing in the background, and sometimes I've done it myself without even thinking, I think what is the user experience that then causes me to go to a lyric video, even when I know the music video is there. And most of the time it's when I wanna have the thing in the background. Maybe I'll go to it, but I don't necessarily wanna stare at the screen for the next few minutes and it makes perfect sense and there's so many more use cases for that.

So I wouldn't be surprised if for certain artists, they both serve a purpose, but they might actually be making more from the respective lyric song. And I think when you just think about it overall, the Lyric song does enable you to have your entire album up on the streaming services guy, I guess you could technically have a few versions where I've seen some artists have the music video, they have the lyric video, and then they just have the still with the cover art of the album there.

So you have three different options and that could all be, revenue that goes back to the artist and the rights solar.

[00:39:53] Tati Cirisano: Mm-hmm. There's also this interesting idea of like how all these things kind of play together. Like going back to the episode that we did on, that was about YouTube and, kind of contrasting these short form video platforms and how YouTube's whole pitch is that they're able to unite long form and short form so that, you know, there isn't that gap where people watch a TikTok video about, and then they don't actually go in and learn more about the artists. So, I don't know. I think there's something interesting there with YouTube being the main place where people watch music videos. The only, like the main place, I won't say the only. And also having the short form video platform. So I think that is a really strong proposition to be able to kind of marry the two.

[00:40:35] Dan Runcie: Here's a question for you similar to that I actually don't know the answer to this myself, but thinking about how like audio and music itself, we see how music has adapted over time based on the mode and the medium that it is, whether it's CDs and streaming. And then we see the impact of TikTok and everything else.

And music videos we've seen similar where we knew what a an MTV era music video looked like, especially if it was a music video that's trying to be on TRL. There's almost a certain formula that you saw to it. And we also see now what a TikTok video can look like where you see the types of dances and you see the way that the music video is made almost in a way to make it easily be replicated, whether it's a Drake, Lizzo, Doja Cat, Cardi B, plenty people have done this.

Do you think this exists as well with YouTube? Was there a certain type of music video that stands out to you, is Yes. This is a YouTube music video. This is a music video that personifies the YouTube era of music videos.

[00:41:38] Tati Cirisano: I love that question. that's a really good question.

[00:41:42] Dan Runcie: As I'm thinking about it, there's one person that did come to mind. NBA Young Boy is a person that I do think speaks to the YouTube era of music videos because he approaches this the same way that. Someone like Mr. Beast approaches videos. There is a formula there, he has his hook, he has the things.

There is a bit of the storytelling dynamic of what he is trying to do, or the challenge that they're trying to overcome, and then they do the thing. But it's definitely told in this way that has the hook and the elements that you naturally see. In YouTube and the way that the font for the name of the music video scrolls up, that is very much the formula.

How quick it is for the beat to start. All those types of things, I think speak a lot to the YouTube era.

[00:42:27] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, I also think, I'm thinking of artists who have sort of played into meme culture with their videos, like Drake has kind of done that. Remember how meme'd the Hotline Bling video was like. Even like the video for, what's that song you have with Justin Bieber? Pop Star was like, kind of playing into like the stereotypes about them in a way.

Like I think artists like them who have sort of played into internet culture in their videos are maybe part of that YouTube era. Charli XCX, the boys video felt very YouTube, Yeah, I would say things like that. And then also videos that invited user participation, like the dance video craze, where it was kind of intended to get you to make your own version.

And that was kind of like the early TikTok was being YouTube. So, yeah, that's a great question.

[00:43:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think we saw some of this with Instagram as well, because I think about Drake in my Feelings. That was another one where there was clearly a Instagramable place where he's saying, please repeat this, because TikTok really wasn't blowing up the way that it was then, but he clearly made this video leading into that.

And if anything, I think that the video came after we saw the viral instagram clips of, what was that guy? Shaggy that was doing the dances for that music video and then Danny Le as well. So there were a few people that had done that.

[00:43:55] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, the correlation is so fascinating. I could do a whole nother podcast on how Drake lyrics invented Instagram captions, but we'll save that.

[00:44:09] Dan Runcie: And no, we will definitely table that one. And I think as. Yeah. No. I have a few thoughts on that one, but as I think about this, I feel like a good way to, to close this one out is thinking about the ROI of these videos. And there's a number of ways to look at it, but with the way that a video is now, what do you think the best way is to measure the ROI?

Because of course there's the hard dollars that the video could generate, the impact, but what's your take on that?

[00:44:36] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, aside from the things like, aside from the things that are just like hard views and streams, I think it's also about cultural impact, which is kind of impossible to measure. it's about UGC, like how many videos was. I don't know, how many people kind of created their own version or did the dance in the music video, wherever it is.

I guess that kind of depends on the video, but I think there's like some element of like creations related to the video that are part of it. and then did anyone dress up for Halloween as that music video? That's the biggest measure of cultural impact.

[00:45:18] Dan Runcie: Like Lil Nas X dressing up as Ice Spice

[00:45:21] Tati Cirisano: Yes. Yes. And I'm sure there were people that dressed up as Drake in the hotline bling video. the scene that that came out. So, look at Halloween costume sales, all you label executives. No, I don't know it's a really hard question to answer, but I think it's, mix of those and it's increasingly about, how fans are kind of like recreating their own versions of things.

[00:45:42] Dan Runcie: Because there's a clear need to, water creates something that creates shock value, but you can't do those moments automatically cuz sometimes randomly it's gun just being gunna and then, Rihanna dresses up like him for her Halloween costume in like multiple settings and stuff, and it's like, oh, okay.

I guess this is a thing. Like I don't think he knew that he was putting a fit out there, but you can't always guarantee that that's what's gonna come out, right? You have artists like Da Baby that I think have always tried to do stunty things to get cloud out there, but I don't know if, I've never necessarily seen people try to dress up like him for Halloween in that way.

But that's a good one, and I think at first I was like thinking you're saying it in jest, but it's a hundred percent true. Like how are you able to capture zeitgeist? And I think that checking Instagram tags especially, or hashtags or just trending topics Twitter can tell you. Yeah. definitely.

[00:46:36] Tati Cirisano: Well, many gift uses did you get of a clip from the music video?

[00:46:41] Dan Runcie: Exactly. Or are people creating gifts of you in some type of way?

[00:46:45] Tati Cirisano: Exactly.

[00:46:46] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Well, Tati, this was fun. We have a couple of topics that I know we'll dig into eventually on this, but before we let you go, what are some things that you're digging into? What should the travel listeners stay looking out for?

[00:46:59] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, that's a good question, let me think. So many things. I mean, we have a new report at MIDia that'll be out next month, for clients that's about live music consumers. We did a big survey, with bands in town asking people about their attitudes towards ticket prices and all sorts of things like that.

 So if you're listening and you're client of ours, look out for that. If you're not and you're interested in it, feel free to reach out. but yeah, that's the thing that I'm working on a lot right now and very excited about.

[00:47:27] Dan Runcie: Nice. All right. We'll stay looking out for that. Thank you.

[00:47:31] Tati Cirisano: Awesome. Thanks Dan.

[00:47:32] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead.

Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2889 no How Ice Spice Blew Up (with Denisha Kuhlor) https://www.trapital.com/podcast Even by today’s standards, Ice Spice’s meteoric rise is something else. She first hit it big in August 2022 with the viral release of “Munch.” Since then, Ice Spice has the most top 5 hits on the Billboard 100 in 2023 and guest appeared on Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour. How did we get here? Her aura, her music, her cinnamon-colored curls, and more have helped her stand out in an oversaturated industry. To explain how Ice Spice’s star was born and where it could go next, I brought on friend of the pod, Denisha Kuhlor. Here’s what we covered: [2:07] The People’s Princess  [4:11] Ice Spice’s success by the numbers  [6:23] “Always shipping” has kept Ice Spice’s momentum  [7:26] Performing on Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour [09:49] What makes Ice Spice unique?  [13:24] Artists’ relatability factor [20:27] Cultivating the Munchkins fanbase [24:00] What is a music global superstar in 2023? [31:39] Sexist dialogue around female rappers [35:56] How female rappers stand out [42:03] Ice Spice’s intentions Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: What is interesting about, Ice Spice is they feel like everyone's learning in real time, and they feel like they get to be a part of it. So in some ways, I do think that her fan base is interesting because it's like they're co-creating a bit, in a way that hasn't that other artists, maybe they've wanted to, but like the true actual product and creation to a product process hasn't been as interactive as, hasn't been as interactive as before. There's no wall the way with other artists. There's Really no wall. It feels like the conversations or the quote tweets that she's having on Twitter really feel like conversations amongst friends from how they crack jokes to the colloquialisms that are there.  [00:00:45] Dan Runcie Audio Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:01:13] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Two years ago. Ice Spice was a college student at SUNY Purchase doing her thing, like most college students do today. She's had one of the most Meteoric rises, especially in the past year. Everything that's happened in ice spices career since she dropped Munch last summer. It has been very fascinating to watch how a star blows up in 2023. In 2023 in this era that we're in now. And today's episode is a breakdown on that. What does it all mean? How did she get here? What did Ice Spice do differently that other artists right now haven't been able to do to reach the levels that she has? And how do we make sense of it all with what to expect with her career moving forward? If you ask the people on her team, whether that's the record labels, the management, the folks that she's working with, they think they have the next global superstar on their hands, but what does that term even mean, and what does that term mean today in an era where it's harder than ever for today's bright young stars to reach the same levels that the past global superstars have reached, especially for an artist from the us. To break it all down, we're joined by friend of the show, Denisha Kuhlor, who's the founder of Stan. She does great work in analyzing artist strategies and looking at Ice Spice and the Munchkins was a great opportunity for us to dive in. So here's our deep dive on Ice Spice. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:35] Dan Runcie: All right, today we are back and we're gonna talk about the Princess Diana of hip hop, herself Ice Spice. It's only right and we're gonna talk about it and break it all down with someone who has written about her and does studies on fan bases as well. So you were the perfect person to have on Denisha Kuhlor, welcome back. Hi. Thanks for having me back. Ice Spice is so fascinating in a lot of ways because. go back to just two years ago. We weren't necessarily having conversations about her. She had released a few singles back then. Some were in collaboration with her dad, who is also a rapper. But things really blew up last summer. She puts out Munch, it becomes a drill anthem, a New York anthem. And then we just see this meteoric rise and you look at where she is now. Here are a few stats just to level set this conversation. She has 36 million monthly Spotify listeners that puts her above people like Jay-Z, Tyler the creator, Jack Harlow, the Beatles. So she's in pretty high company there and she's continued to stay in that area. And just for some context here, Spotify says that this is from their most recent loud and clear report. Spotify says that 130 artist catalogs on their platform are generating at least 5 million annually. So the artist catalogs themselves. Obviously the splits can be different, so if you use those numbers, and you said that I is currently 81st. In terms of all artists there, she's clearly in that lane. Obviously, you have to be able to maintain that for a year, but if you also assume that Spotify itself is roughly a quarter of the. Recorded music revenue that comes through, that's over 20 million dollars that we're seeing there. So we are clearly seeing that she has things from a stream perspective and she just came out for three nights of Taylor Swift's show in the Meadowlands at MetLife Stadium. So how do you make sense of this all? Where do you think about Ice spice and the rise and where she is right now in her career? [00:04:39] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think our space has been so fun to watch. It feels like every few years there's a people's champ, and they always seem to tend to originate from New York. and so seeing her do what she's done with in some ways what feels like, her back against the wall, when Munch came out, it was a lot of critical, critical takes, and the reception wasn't necessarily all positive. So to see how she's kind of, flipped this moment and the light shining on her into a real, you know, bonafide career based off the statue just mentioned is really exciting. [00:05:12] Dan Runcie: I think it highlights. What's possible now, today we've seen artists blow up and become household names in a short amount of time that isn't relatively new. If anything, you can honestly say it's harder to do now, just given the fact that it does take even more work and more time to develop a true superstar. And I do think that's a word that gets thrown around quite a bit. The thing with ice spice though, is that. He's also someone we've seen continue to maintain momentum. Yeah. In an era where someone could be hot for a few months and then you just don't necessarily have that moment again. Yeah. As back early, back as eight years ago, Fetty Wap had that one summer in 2015 where he just had hit after hit. Yeah. And they went consistently with it. That story and the challenges there have been told endless times, but that wasn't a long-lived experience either. And Ice Spice is clearly been able to even expand that from that perspective. I do think that I've heard a few people talk about how fame and talent are things that have had a very symbiotic relationship for years in music, just given how it was very hard to separate the two, especially if you were an artist that rose to the top. Yeah. you had to have a full package at least to be able to be in the conversation. I spice though, as someone who's continued to rise in, I think she has had songs that people liked, songs that people didn't like, people criticizing her flow, people criticizing this, and even some of her performances and things like that. But she's continued to build and grow in public, and it hasn't necessarily knocked her in any type of way.  [00:06:51] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think she wins because she takes like a startup approach in the sense that she's always shipping, while, you know, Munch had its audience and its fan base. Her follow-ups definitely one introduced her to new audiences, but allowed her to keep shipping and testing and iterating on what works. She definitely takes an approach or it feels like just when you think like, okay, like this moment is done, or, you know, the time has lapsed. she's coming out with something new and something that's not expected, and frankly, something that just continues to place her even bigger on the world stage, right? She went from remixes that felt like a true collaboration amongst peers with Pink Panthers and boys a liar to. Getting to work with greats like Nikki or, Taylor Swift, where it feels like now they're saying, Hey, we like this girl. We're embracing her. and we wanna take her to the next step in the industry. So with each time she ships, it feels like it just keeps getting bigger and bigger. [00:07:54] Dan Runcie: Let's talk a bit about Taylor Swift, because you mentioned that there. This performance got a lot of buzz because Taylor Swift really hasn't brought many people out on the tour that she has. This tour may go down as one of the highest grossing tours that we've seen, and she's coming out and saying that I spice is the future, and we're seeing everyone from, whether it's her record labels and folks that she worked with more. Granted, we expect them to, that's their job to promote the folks that they have there, but from a live performance perspective, it wasn't always like this because she did get some critical comments from more recent performances that she did up to this point, and we've seen those types of things derail artists. Yeah. And be challenging to them. Can you talk a bit about that?  [00:08:39] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so I think, you know, Taylor Swift, bringing out and embracing, ice Spice was really interesting. ice Spice definitely has this dynamic of, you know, the people's champ and as she continues to, as she continues to grow people, people rooting for her. And so just from like, What that moment meant, I think for people to see someone who hadn't had any music, who barely had a Spotify profile probably two years ago or three years ago. to be an on a stage in a filled out arena nonetheless, was awesome. But I also think it's very much a testament to her ability and kind of the consumer's ability to, be forgetful. And when I say that, she obviously looked a lot more comfortable on stage, but the rolling loud performance, I think brought a lot of critique, right? it was just the novice fan on platforms like Shade Room or Instagram, talking about her performance. to folks in the industry talking more about the need for, you know, artist development and, a and r I feel like a lot of people could have come out of that moment very differently. or in some ways been so effect, offended that. It hurt their career but in even, you know, reading Ice Space's, last interview with Billboard, she talks a lot about her desire to exercise has solely been fueled by her wanting to improve her breath work on stage. and so you see a real commitment. I even noticed it seeing the clips from her wireless performance, just looking more comfortable on stage thinking through her set list. I think you see a real commitment. Two on, on her part. two, want to improve her craft and become a better performer.  [00:10:17] Dan Runcie: So you mentioned a few things that definitely contributed to her rise. She definitely has the investment. The team behind her at Capital and others wanna see this happen. The thing is though, record labels are always making investments in everyone. They always try to put money behind new talent, and it made me think what is unique about her. Some people feel like there is a visual aspect to this. Not even in just the aspect of her being attractive, but having the distinct look, right? That like cinnamon afro, you know, it this like very striking from a visual perspective or just like, well who is that? Because that doesn't look like someone that we've seen before. Not necessarily in this overt stunt way. Yeah. But just someone that's being themselves and doing their thing. In a similar dynamic to the way that when Billy Eilish had first came out, she wasn't dressing the same way that Pop Stars did. And she was, had this whole vibe, and it was around this time that people were trying to understand Gen Z as this broad consumer, and then he or she comes very antithetical to what people have. And I think that look at that vibe attributed it to that way. So I think that's one factor that works in her favor. So you have that. You have the fact that New York has always had this pulse on whoever the next person up is and what they tell you about, whether it's what we saw with Cardi B. Now when she blew up, what you know, six, seven years ago, whether you saw it with pop smoke a couple years after. So New York has always had its finger on the pulse from that perspective. So I think that's part of it too. I also think though, that there's this aspect of. Dominating conversation in social media and with that type of discourse, but without just becoming someone who lives in social media, if that makes sense. The analogy I often think about is, Ben Affleck.  This is a, bit of unique comparison, but I have to think about how Ben Affleck would talk about back when him and J Lo were going through their breakup when they were together in the two thousands, he was saying, you know, I could sell all of the US weekly magazines in the world. Yeah. But, I can't sell a movie ticket. Yeah. That is the thing that's tough for me to be able to sell. And I think that sometimes artists can struggle with that too, where their names can always be trending and they can always be the trending topic on Twitter, or they could always be the topic of discussion on Shade Room or whatever the aggregator site is, but they don't necessarily drive that into streams. They don't drive that into hard ticket sales. And that's the stuff that true fan base development comes. And a lot of that stuff does take years that it's a natural funnel, right? Your social media and your followers should always be larger and then leading there, but it has to lead somewhere. But Ice Spice, at least from where she is, from a monthly stream perspective and how that stayed consistent. People clearly are listening and tuning into the music and then additionally, the biggest artist in the world is bringing her out on stage to do that. And those are some of the things we saw with Post Malone early in his career and how he would go out on stage with different people, even people that were of different genres and trying to see what that playbook looked like. So yeah, that's the piece of it that I think is different from her relative to even. Other artists we've seen come out, other female artists we've seen come out. Other black female artists in hiphop that we've seen come out, that I think is a bit unique about why I think she's been distinct in this way. [00:13:52] Denisha Kuhlor: I agree. I agree. I think she's. Immerse herself in culture in a way that's so authentic to her. and as a result, she's able to show up as the digitally native person that, that she is, Ice Spice and how she interacts even on social media when you look, is a lot less like an influencer. Which is what I would say, Cardi B kind of had when she was coming up, and maybe some other stars that really got fame. And while they definitely have mastered authenticity and they do it well, Ice Spice in some ways is just her, like, I feel like she's almost, And she's almost like, like that girl in school that's relatable, but you feel like, oh, I can't pull that off. So when it comes to the things that she's doing, it feels relatable enough. but it doesn't also encourage you to get out there and do it herself. And I think it's a, difference maybe nuance to the authenticity that we've, that we've seen in the past. which people can really appreciate. I would probably even argue now that people are better, consumers are more savvy when it comes to what feels like manufactured authenticity, right? Whether it's a Get Ready with Me video, but you're selling all these makeup products as a result or a day in my life, but you're really promoting the new product to target. Like consumers have become a lot more savvy. And as a result, they praise her for doing what they want, which is just that genuine authenticity when it comes to Princess Diana. And she mentioned this in the Billboard, article or the interview that she did, her cover story. She thought it was so weird that people were calling her that name and she didn't get it. but she felt like all she could do was embrace it, right? and embrace that title. and I think that's just another great example of how. You watch her into real time, like develop the ebbs and flows of coming this fame while still recognizing there's so much that she doesn't know. And I feel like people really appreciate that. Whereas unfortunately, and maybe this is just a. A privilege that comes to the new artist. Drake talks about this in his rap radar interview where he says There's a period as an artist much to what you were, referring to with the Post Malone, you know, example in terms of being prod out, like there's a period as a new artist for. Around maybe, probably six to 18 months where everyone is just discovering you and the, process of discovering you, right? A person getting their first iPhone or this process of discovery and experiencing this new thing for the first time feels really great. and I think she's found a way to really revel in it and capitalize in it, capitalize on it in a way that seems to have longevity, versus other artists.  [00:16:39] Dan Runcie: I wanna talk about that first piece you mentioned about the relatability. You said something along the lines of she makes it so you may not wanna necessarily replicate what she's doing, but there's something in it that seems attainable and relatable. In a way. Do you think that that's rare when it comes to artists? Like is there anyone that comes to mind that, let's say is a popular artist that you don't think that necessarily applies to?  [00:17:05] Denisha Kuhlor: Hmm. You know, I guess I can give the best examples as watching these artists sometimes what feels like making leaps and bounds to continue to remain relatable. obviously you look at like a Drake, and I think he does that really well, right? He goes to these places because you know, as much as it's helping, the artists. It's also giving him that currency of relatability. I mean, we have the piece on, Cho with Cardi B. she's about to do a song with Lato, and everyone's talking about now the conversation is how much Cardi B like mints a track and the co-sign she gives to a track, but it also keeps her relatable, and pushes her brand in a very specific, in a very specific way. and so I almost feel like, relatability is becoming a bit played, if that makes sense. people and labels are forcing it,  [00:18:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Like, would you say that Nicki Minaj is relatable in this way?  [00:18:03] Denisha Kuhlor: Oh, interesting. No, no, I wouldn't. I think that once an artist hits a certain amount of success that they inherently become unrelatable. As much as they tried  [00:18:12] Dan Runcie: Was like, was beat me up, Scotty Era, Nicki Minaj, relatable?.  [00:18:17] Denisha Kuhlor: Very much so. I think because and it sounds a little crazy, but I think the only part in that distinction at that time of the artist is fans are just supporting them, but it still somewhat feels like a peer-to-peer relationship, or there's less of a wall up, right? Their support, their appreciation feels more like a, bilateral conversation. Whereas once an artist hits a certain point you're getting none of that. and that's where I think it comes from. [00:18:45] Dan Runcie: It's interesting I asked about Nicki Minaj because I think that part of the relatability thing with Ice Spice is it reminds me of, it reminds me of Steph Curry in a way where someone like him can seem. He has other worldly talent, in my opinion but I do think that because of his size, because of his stature, he isn't this six foot nine LeBron figure that does things where it's like, I could never do that. Yeah. Right. But there's this thought of like, okay, well if I do my 10,000 shots just like Steph did or spent my 10,000 hours in the gym, yeah. I could get there. Yeah. And I feel like Ice Spice, at least from a flow in a Italian, in an image perspective. Yeah, there's a bit of that. Oh, she's your friend from high school or she was someone that was like part of that crew from that perspective. And you know, she has a unique flow and there's a aspect of it. But I asked the Nikki question because I was wondering, you have Nikki doing a verse like Monster, which was one of her big breakouts there. This was 2010 on Kanye's song. Does a verse like that almost make her unrelatable in a way where it's this talent is then shown to be like, oh wow, like can I do that? And it almost puts you into this Revere era, which is still a valuable place for an artist to be. But I wonder if that's a very different way with how someone like Ice Spice is looked at.  [00:20:03] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I think in the point you made about like, Voice and flow, right? One of the most, memorable things about, Ice Spice's the cadence in which she raps. It literally feels like you're kind of around your friend who's like rapping to a beat and, knows they can rap. But is not overdoing it. whereas with an artist like a Nicki Minaj, there's definitely a level of animation, that can approach the music, right. And I think that's a great thing, right? It's helped build a fan base, it adds a different level of maybe production to her and how she performs and kind of everything associated with her artistry. But it makes it very different from a relatability standpoint because anyone can feel like they can kind of maybe like kick a verse like Ice Spice. I don't know how many people are attempting to, go up against what she did. On what? Nick Minaj on Monster.  [00:20:56] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think that's part of the distinction there and I think this spans across a few heel, but that's one thing that can work in her, can work in her favor, especially as coming up now is very different than Nikki coming up in the blog era. It's just, yeah, a different dynamic of how artists come up and how you get, how you break through. And one of the things that I think is a bit more unique now is the importance of cultivating fan bases early and having that dynamic where, you know, Nikki could talk about, you know, charging 50K for a versatile album out in her days of, I think in a lot of ways that reflected where things were just from, especially that era coming up. Like with the mixtapes, I spice granted she could probably command more just given, you know, inflation and all the other things related to music. I do think that her cultivating a fan base is something that likely came earlier though, because I think it probably took a couple of years for the Barbs to really materialize and become how they were, you know, well after Nikki's first album. But the Munchkins or the Spice cabinet, as some people call them, I Spice Spice fan base is already here and is reflective of how artists are thinking about cultivating and growing things now, because you need to do this stuff earlier. We have the tools available in a way that weren't necessarily available to someone like Nicki or someone like Drake or J. Cole in the late two thousands when all of them were coming up in that wave. Is there anything you've noticed from her from that perspective that stands out that is unique? Yeah, that is something that  [00:22:31] Denisha Kuhlor: You know what's interesting or what feels interesting? I feel like the fan base, or the audience still feels like it's very much defined or it's being defined. And the reason I say that is because there does also seem to be a trend of drop off when it comes to artists who have fan bases around, or largely off being the people's champ. Only because the bigger they get, it feels like there's less of a need to root for them because they're gonna be okay, right? They've hit a certain inflection point in which they will be. Okay. I think What is interesting about, Ice Spice is they feel like everyone's learning in real time, and they feel like they get to be a part of it. So in some ways, I do think that her fan base is interesting because it's like they're co-creating a bit, in a way that hasn't that other artists, maybe they've wanted to, but like the true actual product and creation to a product process hasn't been as interactive as, hasn't been as interactive as before. There's no, wall the way with other artists. It's like, oh, okay, I can, you know, the artist is doing this and that. There's really no wall, it feels like the conversations or the quote tweets that she's having on Twitter really feel like conversations amongst friends from how they crack jokes to the colloquialisms that are there. And I think the way she chooses to use her extra resources are done in a way that only continues to build a fan base. And like when you think about, her record with, Pink Panthers, they could have shot that video anywhere. They chose to do it on top of a building in the Bronx. And so, I look at it and I can only see more and more how those fans that maybe came because they were rooting for her as the people's champ, feel like they can stay because the relatability hasn't disappeared. [00:24:27] Dan Runcie: It's making me think of a few things I think. I think the co-creating thing, especially with how she interacts with fans on social media, there is a aspect of that is her feedback loop. That's how she's getting a vibe for what works and what doesn't, and in many ways they can be so, protective isn't the right word, but they can be so clear about their emotions and they don't hold anything back and they're gonna say things that even people in Ice Spice's circle probably wouldn't feel comfortable to say, but you can see all of that. Exactly. Some of that is, but once you're able to weed out the extremes, both from the haters and the people that are, you know, so unapologetic, they're blind to any type of, you know, constructive criticism that could support her career. There's good value that I think comes from that. The piece I want to talk about is the team that she has around her, because I read that same billboard article you wrote, and there are multiple entities that she's working with that have called her. A global superstar and thinks that she is the next one that is on that way, whether it's capital records or 10 K projects or, her manager or even some of the others. What is the word? What does global superstar mean to you?  [00:25:37] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I mean, I think that's definitely an interesting, interesting term. as someone who thinks about just how global the music industry has become, I think of global superstars as, The examples I would give are probably like a Bad Bunny or a Burna Boy. in some ways, they're really able to command or pull tickets in, in any market. I mean, I got the opportunity to see Burna Boy in Paris recently, and I was like shocked, but not surprised in the sense that. Like he can do hard tickets anywhere. Bad Bunny seems to have that same effect. Now, I do think that, and something I've just learned over time is it's a tricky designation because. The world knows a lot about the United States. the world knows a lot about New York when you think about how many shows or, you know, how many things are covered about New York, the world knows. So it's easy to feel like you have an understanding or an affinity to music about something that you know a lot about now, does it necessarily resonate the same way? I think of like the little baby in his documentary saying once he started traveling, he realized there were hoods all around the world. but I think that. there's obviously, definitely the potential to be, but I don't know if I could necessarily, say that just yet, because right now, to me, global Superstar feels defined a lot by touring. [00:27:07] Dan Runcie: I do think that is a threshold there, that's something I look at and I know it's something that's fluid and I think I have a higher bar than a lot of people, at least from a peer numbers perspective. Granted, these things can fluctuate, but I wanna see someone that can at least headline an arena tour, at least. Either on a nationwide perspective, at least in the US or can span beyond that. I wanna see someone that can at least sell 250K units. Yeah. At least in the US in their first week if they are a US, if they are, you know, side to a US-based record label. I think it can change elsewhere, but I wanna be able to see that. I also wanna be able to see some type of, I also wanna be able to see some type of reach that spans beyond just those metrics as well. If you are able to ask someone that is outside of the circles of paying attention to this stuff, can they name you a few unique things or something identifiable like, oh, that's so-and-so with this. It doesn't need to be extreme as, does your mom know who so-and-so is? But I wanna be able to at least yeah. See that and at least things from. Being able to create moments. Yeah. Of there's something that you do that does create moments there. The challenge that I think that definition and those terms can have, I know it could be a bit rigid, and even if I'm using those thresholds as well, there's maybe less than. Maybe around 20 or so people in all of pop music, in popular music, not just like Pop is in genre, but like all of popular contemporary music right now, they're probably fitting in. Yeah, that category of what I just said in less than 10 in hip hop. If we're saying overall, because I do think these six Fletcher, you can come and go there, but I do think that. That sometimes gets a bit missings because we do throw these terms around liberally. The thing is though, if you're a record label, you're in the business of trying to admit these people. Yeah. And for many of the reports that we've seen, it's becoming harder and harder. Yeah. To do that especially for a western-based English speaking artist. Exactly. The market saturated, the names you just mentioned, it's no surprise that two of the more recent superstars that we've had at that level, Burna Boy and bad Bunny, are not primarily English speaking artists from the music that they put out and they emerge from different parts of the world that are not the United States or you know, the UK and Western Europe, right? Yeah. Like those things are not coincidences. All those things fall in line. So it's one of these things where it makes sense if you're going to put the machine behind someone. Yeah, it does make sense to put it behind someone like Ice Spice because that's what you have. You wanna be able to put things out there. And this is an industry driven by media and PR, so. Anything, even like that Ice Spice article that we saw on Billboard, very intentional just given the relationship that the major publications in music have with their major record labels themselves. So once you think about those things a bit deeply, It's great that someone like Ice Spice is getting that push to have everything behind her as well. You just wanna make sure that we're not necessarily putting a carpet for the horse, or even putting expectations that may seem a bit too strong on someone that. We've even seen in the past couple months continuing to develop their career in a natural way. Someone that's 23 years old, she did one festival performance, got some mixed reviews from that, and then now she's on stage with the biggest arts in the world, and that's gonna continue to develop. Like these things take time, but I just don't know if this era has the patience to be able to. Wait that out and see how these exist.  [00:30:46] Denisha Kuhlor: I completely agree. And I also think, you know, like you said, the market is saturated and consumers have more access to music that maybe matches their local appetite, right? We've seen the rise of, drill music, obviously, you know, starting from Chicago to doing what it's done in New York to UK drill right. To Parisian or even, you know, French drill, right? So I think it, it makes it difficult because, as she continues to excel, right? There are people or artists that can also, hit the market and use certain elements of the framework, to reach maybe a small but core audience in a market, that she's not fully built, dominance yet. I mean, it's been a trend in, tech, whether it's replicating Airbnb for other markets or other companies. And so I think that it's definitely a hard feat right now because, People are very unapologetic before, and rap, right? Felt like there could only be one at a time, or this concept of first ladies, in rap groups. Yeah. Especially for women. Exactly. And now you don't even, I mean, female rappers really, frankly, an outdated term. and, very much so. So you just think, oh, there's, you know, go's doing her thing. Lato, Cardi e everyone, the industry is thriving, but as a result, maybe the dominance of one has definitely decreased, [00:32:06] Dan Runcie: And I think that fragmentation, the fact that there can be more than one, the fact that we see multiple people being able to succeed is good. It also makes me think of some of the critiques and some of the responses that we've seen from some of the releases, and I feel like we've seen this pattern. I've noticed it, I think we've talked about this as well, this pattern that frankly is rooted in sexism, where every couple of months there is a woman, there's a woman in hip hop that releases an album or a mixtape, or they announce a tour, something that has some, they do something that is further down their funnel in terms of either hard tickets or trying to get some hard album sales to put things out. And the numbers may not necessarily be as high as people would think. Yeah. And this is a artist that would have at this point, Tens of millions of followers on all the social channels combined. They're often in the discussion. They have plenty of co-signs. They're assigned to some of the strongest record labels in the game, but then there's always someone that says, oh, well, how did so-and-so not even be able to sell 20,000 units in a week? How does so-and-so not even be able to sell out this tour? Or they can't do this? It's frustrating in a lot of ways. But it's always women that we see this discourse happen with. It makes me think of a few things. I think there's a bit of a disconnect in terms of understanding what numbers mean. Yeah. And what they don't. But there's also people just conflating followers with fans and not necessarily understanding that dynamic and how that dynamic is often different for women because of how the industry wants to portray certain people, what they're selling and what platforms sell and What you put on a platform can be very different for an artist just because that artist is a man and those things, I think it's frustrating to see, and I don't want that to happen too, Ice Spice, but we've seen it happen to so many of the names that you mentioned as well earlier. Yeah. Is that just the way, is that just the dynamic? How do we Yeah. Break out? I, I think, and not that you have the answers too, but this is something I want.  [00:34:13] Denisha Kuhlor: Very true. Very true. I think, you know, it's interesting, even in those names that I've mentioned, I think the only one, and she's embraced this dynamic really well, that's kind of been like, you know, I don't really know how I got here. I don't feel like I'm supposed to be here. It's been like a gorilla and she's been, you know, very vocal about kind of maybe talking about some of the dynamics or pressures in the industry. I think it's, obviously a multifaceted approach, but what I will say is that, media and music sometimes can feel so combined. And when you look at what the media wants to push out and how they, portray certain stories and what they choose to cover, right? When it comes to everything from interviews to, even cover stories of, of these artists, I think unfortunately, it puts some of these women or some of these artists in a tough position based off what they wanna focus on or how they're portrayed. This sounds a little crazy, but I think, you know, the person who could probably, if they ever wanted a side project to maybe change some of that narrative is actually a Kris Jenner. I mean, we've seen what she's done with her daughters, but I think she's been very brilliant. I mean, I think to my knowledge, two of her daughters, you know, have done the Forbes cover, but I think she's been very thoughtful around shifting a specific type of narrative. Whereas the attention could have been garnered from, you know, beauty and, societal expectations around beauty. Very much shifting that into the conversion of things that lead to real dollars, whether it's Kylie with her Lip Kits or Kim now with Skims who used Ice Spice, um, in an effort for relatability. So, I unfortunately think that so early when an artist starts to blow, it's the team around you is calling a lot of the shots and getting things done. And it's hard to realize maybe until you see it for years, until years later, maybe how some of the small nuances in how you were portrayed or some of the opportunities you took, impacted your ability to, be taken seriously as a, decades long artist. [00:36:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think part of the dynamic too, and this especially applies with women in hip hop, is that the teams around them and them themselves, some of their social posts or some of the things that they put out that they're selling sex. Yeah. They're doing the glam shots. Yeah. They're being out there. which is good. They should feel empowered. They have a platform and so many people then feel empowered just seeing them be bold that themselves. The thing is though, because based on these platforms, the way they work and the algorithms, people are gonna follow you some or a portion of people are gonna follow you just because of that. They are attracted, they're entertained. Yeah. And they wanna see that. And there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. But that's going to attract a certain number of followers in a way that Kendrick Lamar or J. Cole, who barely tweeted and have never been positioned as male sex symbols in that way, yeah. Aren't going to attract that. So when you look at the, if there's a way to segment. Looking at Instagram, okay. Who follows you and why do they follow you? It's very different. Yeah. And that's why it's no surprise that the most followed art, the most followed hip hop artist on Instagram is Nicki Minaj, and it isn't even close. Yeah. And a lot of it is because of that and. This is also someone in Nicki Minaj. If you then took that same look and you look at, okay, who are the artists that are selling the most, whether it's streams or it's albums, it's different. So I think sometimes people forget that, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I'm glad you brought up the Kris Jenner piece of this, because one of the things that she obviously has done well is finding, okay, based on the audience that we've cultivated, Where is that product market fit based on who they're reaching on Instagram, based on who they're reaching from this? Exactly. And I think sometimes that's part of the challenge with a woman artist and specifically a woman artist in hip hop. If some of the posts may lean a bit more towards that, but it's one of those things where it shouldn't be that way because you should be able to post, you know, a sexy image and it isn't doing that. But the concept that you put out, lines up with word people see, so there's always a bit of that challenge. There's always a bit of that dynamic there. And I see Ice Spice as well, someone that is attractive, someone that does have a lot of followers cuz people are bought into her look and. I don't want that to be the same necessarily. [00:38:35] Denisha Kuhlor: You look at an artist like No name, who I love. I'm a huge no name fan. And she, you know, wraps with a soft spoken voice as well. and you know, I would argue no name fans wanna talk to her about books cuz she has a book club and, they, you know, so I think maybe the. The way you can also combat that is having like true pillars maybe of your personality or that you include as part of the narrative that aren't just visual. Because if you teach people to be visual creatures or approach you visually, that is what they will see. That is what they will, that is what they will default to. And from an artist awareness perspective, you're getting the, visual part of artist awareness. But when it comes to the deeper part of, you know, the artist's story and what you represent, you're not capturing that as well. And that's the difference between maybe a casual fan, a listener's turn casual fan cuz they follow you and they like you. They like your vibe to a truly engaged and deep-rooted fan.  [00:39:34] Dan Runcie: This is something that I think a Cardi B also is able to do well, just I think back to during the 2020 presidential election and she's sitting down with Bernie Sanders. Yeah. There was nothing related to music or related to, you know, selling sex or anything like that. She's been talking about her interest in that, or whether it's her interest in FDR or other things. There was something else there that I think had people brought in. I think which I think has always helped with her in that perspective. Yeah. Another person I think I feel a bit bad for in this regard was Megan Stallion because I look at the rise and the narrative and the things that she was talking about pre-the Tory Lanez shooting. And so much of it, you heard so much more then about, you know, her own goals, graduating college Yeah. And actually wanted to start the healthcare facilities. Yeah. And the hotties and, you know, driving the boat. all of the stuff that she was able to pull off there. And I think since then, not only was she much more selective about the media things that she did, yeah. Almost every media appearance that she's had, to some extent is addressing Yes. Something related to the Tory Lanez' shooting. Yeah. And of course it's a very traumatic thing, but you just think about how impactful that was. Yeah. When everything was going in the direction that it was Yeah, yeah. For her career. So I look at that in just another case where granted, she's still doing quite well for herself from a career perspective, but things definitely changed after that.  [00:41:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, Cardi B is a great one. and even, even me, I would say somewhere probably between casual fan or in that range, I can very much remember all the things Cardi B does, whether it's her love of civics and politics to, there was a tweet and she was talking about the rise of grocery prices and someone was like, why are you talking about this? And she was like, I very much care about, you know, the day-to-day life of the average American because. I've done well, but I support families, I support my family, all of that. And then I thought it was brilliance. She either did, I don't wanna get it wrong. but did either eve near essence of black publication, and the family shoot, right? With Offset having a blended family, the challenges and, that they've went through there. And I think that, yeah, she's so brilliantly done that By just being herself. It does feel like the industry has like a one track or fixed mind, sometimes in that once this is what you are known for. It feels hard to break away from that. And what's interesting is I do think in, Meg's case that the way she's navigating it now, whether it's just taking some time off, saying that she'll be back when she's ready, Gives her the space to maybe come back out with a bit of a reinvention. and so I'm excited to see what that would look like. And in the way Beyonce came back out as Sasha Fierce, like what does it look like to, for hope for her to hopefully have that opportunity to reinvent herself back into whatever artist she wants to be.  [00:42:31] Dan Runcie: And I think that's the key thing. There is so much that they still have going. All these artists are still young. I mean most of them are still under 30. Yeah. I actually forget how old Cardi B is, but I think she still is. There's still plenty of runway. There's still plenty of this. Cardi B still hasn't released another album since the debut album that she had. Meg, her others still haven't gone on tour, even Nikki hasn't gone on tour in a while. Yeah, and we haven't seen a true album come out from her since Queen, which was almost five years ago at this point. And we're still waiting for Ice Spices debut album. So excited to see where it comes. I think there's a lot of opportunity. I think we talked about some of the challenges that are there and some of the headwinds, but before we close things out, any other thoughts on Ice Spice?  [00:43:14] Denisha Kuhlor: Lastly, and to the point you've made. I think maybe some of it comes down to, intentions or even our desires. I think COVID, it really continued to be a hard look at the daily lives we live and what work-life balance looks like. And as so many of us go through that as individuals and human beings, artists are going through that, artists are going through that as well. And Ice Spice this case, I think with some of the business and partner decisions she's made, signing a capital, having the distribution network that comes with, World Star and World Star's Media Network, it gives her the privilege to release a song and know that distribution is already built in and not maybe have to do those 50 radio stops.  It gives her that sort of privilege and I think we're going to see a world with artists. And Cardi is interesting to that point too, where they might never tour. They can sustain a lifestyle that they want to live doing just enough.  [00:44:14] Dan Runcie: Cardi is on that private tour gig. She's on that Lionel Richie ship.  [00:44:17] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly, doing just enough. And I think that's really attractive. And so, you know, when you think about the attitudes that Gen Z brings towards the workplace. It's really interesting to see how, she will, you know, releasing a six song, six songs, right? For an initial body of an initial body of work before we used to 10 to 12. [00:44:39] Dan Runcie: A multimillionaire giggle.  [00:44:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see kind of what maybe what does the new era of a global superstar look like? Maybe it looks like a lot less tour dates and a lot less music, and a lot more brand partnerships and other streams of income. And, as a result, we'll get the artists, but in a way that makes it feel worth their while for a long time.  [00:45:06] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And I think that's a good point to end on. So Ice Spice and team. If you're listening, we wish you all the best of luck with this and we'll be following, we'll be following along. Denisha pleasure as always. [00:45:17] Denisha Kuhlor: Thank you so much for having me.  [00:45:18] Dan Runcie Audio Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 08 Jun 2023 09:00:00 -0000 How Ice Spice Blew Up (with Denisha Kuhlor) full Dan Runcie Even by today’s standards, Ice Spice’s meteoric rise is something else. She first hit it big in August 2022 with the viral release of “Munch.” Since then, Ice Spice has the most top 5 hits on the Billboard 100 in 2023 and guest appeared on Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour. How did we get here? Her aura, her music, her cinnamon-colored curls, and more have helped her stand out in an oversaturated industry. To explain how Ice Spice’s star was born and where it could go next, I brought on friend of the pod, Denisha Kuhlor. Here’s what we covered: [2:07] The People’s Princess  [4:11] Ice Spice’s success by the numbers  [6:23] “Always shipping” has kept Ice Spice’s momentum  [7:26] Performing on Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour [09:49] What makes Ice Spice unique?  [13:24] Artists’ relatability factor [20:27] Cultivating the Munchkins fanbase [24:00] What is a music global superstar in 2023? [31:39] Sexist dialogue around female rappers [35:56] How female rappers stand out [42:03] Ice Spice’s intentions Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: What is interesting about, Ice Spice is they feel like everyone's learning in real time, and they feel like they get to be a part of it. So in some ways, I do think that her fan base is interesting because it's like they're co-creating a bit, in a way that hasn't that other artists, maybe they've wanted to, but like the true actual product and creation to a product process hasn't been as interactive as, hasn't been as interactive as before. There's no wall the way with other artists. There's Really no wall. It feels like the conversations or the quote tweets that she's having on Twitter really feel like conversations amongst friends from how they crack jokes to the colloquialisms that are there.  [00:00:45] Dan Runcie Audio Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:01:13] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Two years ago. Ice Spice was a college student at SUNY Purchase doing her thing, like most college students do today. She's had one of the most Meteoric rises, especially in the past year. Everything that's happened in ice spices career since she dropped Munch last summer. It has been very fascinating to watch how a star blows up in 2023. In 2023 in this era that we're in now. And today's episode is a breakdown on that. What does it all mean? How did she get here? What did Ice Spice do differently that other artists right now haven't been able to do to reach the levels that she has? And how do we make sense of it all with what to expect with her career moving forward? If you ask the people on her team, whether that's the record labels, the management, the folks that she's working with, they think they have the next global superstar on their hands, but what does that term even mean, and what does that term mean today in an era where it's harder than ever for today's bright young stars to reach the same levels that the past global superstars have reached, especially for an artist from the us. To break it all down, we're joined by friend of the show, Denisha Kuhlor, who's the founder of Stan. She does great work in analyzing artist strategies and looking at Ice Spice and the Munchkins was a great opportunity for us to dive in. So here's our deep dive on Ice Spice. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:35] Dan Runcie: All right, today we are back and we're gonna talk about the Princess Diana of hip hop, herself Ice Spice. It's only right and we're gonna talk about it and break it all down with someone who has written about her and does studies on fan bases as well. So you were the perfect person to have on Denisha Kuhlor, welcome back. Hi. Thanks for having me back. Ice Spice is so fascinating in a lot of ways because. go back to just two years ago. We weren't necessarily having conversations about her. She had released a few singles back then. Some were in collaboration with her dad, who is also a rapper. But things really blew up last summer. She puts out Munch, it becomes a drill anthem, a New York anthem. And then we just see this meteoric rise and you look at where she is now. Here are a few stats just to level set this conversation. She has 36 million monthly Spotify listeners that puts her above people like Jay-Z, Tyler the creator, Jack Harlow, the Beatles. So she's in pretty high company there and she's continued to stay in that area. And just for some context here, Spotify says that this is from their most recent loud and clear report. Spotify says that 130 artist catalogs on their platform are generating at least 5 million annually. So the artist catalogs themselves. Obviously the splits can be different, so if you use those numbers, and you said that I is currently 81st. In terms of all artists there, she's clearly in that lane. Obviously, you have to be able to maintain that for a year, but if you also assume that Spotify itself is roughly a quarter of the. Recorded music revenue that comes through, that's over 20 million dollars that we're seeing there. So we are clearly seeing that she has things from a stream perspective and she just came out for three nights of Taylor Swift's show in the Meadowlands at MetLife Stadium. So how do you make sense of this all? Where do you think about Ice spice and the rise and where she is right now in her career? [00:04:39] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think our space has been so fun to watch. It feels like every few years there's a people's champ, and they always seem to tend to originate from New York. and so seeing her do what she's done with in some ways what feels like, her back against the wall, when Munch came out, it was a lot of critical, critical takes, and the reception wasn't necessarily all positive. So to see how she's kind of, flipped this moment and the light shining on her into a real, you know, bonafide career based off the statue just mentioned is really exciting. [00:05:12] Dan Runcie: I think it highlights. What's possible now, today we've seen artists blow up and become household names in a short amount of time that isn't relatively new. If anything, you can honestly say it's harder to do now, just given the fact that it does take even more work and more time to develop a true superstar. And I do think that's a word that gets thrown around quite a bit. The thing with ice spice though, is that. He's also someone we've seen continue to maintain momentum. Yeah. In an era where someone could be hot for a few months and then you just don't necessarily have that moment again. Yeah. As back early, back as eight years ago, Fetty Wap had that one summer in 2015 where he just had hit after hit. Yeah. And they went consistently with it. That story and the challenges there have been told endless times, but that wasn't a long-lived experience either. And Ice Spice is clearly been able to even expand that from that perspective. I do think that I've heard a few people talk about how fame and talent are things that have had a very symbiotic relationship for years in music, just given how it was very hard to separate the two, especially if you were an artist that rose to the top. Yeah. you had to have a full package at least to be able to be in the conversation. I spice though, as someone who's continued to rise in, I think she has had songs that people liked, songs that people didn't like, people criticizing her flow, people criticizing this, and even some of her performances and things like that. But she's continued to build and grow in public, and it hasn't necessarily knocked her in any type of way.  [00:06:51] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think she wins because she takes like a startup approach in the sense that she's always shipping, while, you know, Munch had its audience and its fan base. Her follow-ups definitely one introduced her to new audiences, but allowed her to keep shipping and testing and iterating on what works. She definitely takes an approach or it feels like just when you think like, okay, like this moment is done, or, you know, the time has lapsed. she's coming out with something new and something that's not expected, and frankly, something that just continues to place her even bigger on the world stage, right? She went from remixes that felt like a true collaboration amongst peers with Pink Panthers and boys a liar to. Getting to work with greats like Nikki or, Taylor Swift, where it feels like now they're saying, Hey, we like this girl. We're embracing her. and we wanna take her to the next step in the industry. So with each time she ships, it feels like it just keeps getting bigger and bigger. [00:07:54] Dan Runcie: Let's talk a bit about Taylor Swift, because you mentioned that there. This performance got a lot of buzz because Taylor Swift really hasn't brought many people out on the tour that she has. This tour may go down as one of the highest grossing tours that we've seen, and she's coming out and saying that I spice is the future, and we're seeing everyone from, whether it's her record labels and folks that she worked with more. Granted, we expect them to, that's their job to promote the folks that they have there, but from a live performance perspective, it wasn't always like this because she did get some critical comments from more recent performances that she did up to this point, and we've seen those types of things derail artists. Yeah. And be challenging to them. Can you talk a bit about that?  [00:08:39] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so I think, you know, Taylor Swift, bringing out and embracing, ice Spice was really interesting. ice Spice definitely has this dynamic of, you know, the people's champ and as she continues to, as she continues to grow people, people rooting for her. And so just from like, What that moment meant, I think for people to see someone who hadn't had any music, who barely had a Spotify profile probably two years ago or three years ago. to be an on a stage in a filled out arena nonetheless, was awesome. But I also think it's very much a testament to her ability and kind of the consumer's ability to, be forgetful. And when I say that, she obviously looked a lot more comfortable on stage, but the rolling loud performance, I think brought a lot of critique, right? it was just the novice fan on platforms like Shade Room or Instagram, talking about her performance. to folks in the industry talking more about the need for, you know, artist development and, a and r I feel like a lot of people could have come out of that moment very differently. or in some ways been so effect, offended that. It hurt their career but in even, you know, reading Ice Space's, last interview with Billboard, she talks a lot about her desire to exercise has solely been fueled by her wanting to improve her breath work on stage. and so you see a real commitment. I even noticed it seeing the clips from her wireless performance, just looking more comfortable on stage thinking through her set list. I think you see a real commitment. Two on, on her part. two, want to improve her craft and become a better performer.  [00:10:17] Dan Runcie: So you mentioned a few things that definitely contributed to her rise. She definitely has the investment. The team behind her at Capital and others wanna see this happen. The thing is though, record labels are always making investments in everyone. They always try to put money behind new talent, and it made me think what is unique about her. Some people feel like there is a visual aspect to this. Not even in just the aspect of her being attractive, but having the distinct look, right? That like cinnamon afro, you know, it this like very striking from a visual perspective or just like, well who is that? Because that doesn't look like someone that we've seen before. Not necessarily in this overt stunt way. Yeah. But just someone that's being themselves and doing their thing. In a similar dynamic to the way that when Billy Eilish had first came out, she wasn't dressing the same way that Pop Stars did. And she was, had this whole vibe, and it was around this time that people were trying to understand Gen Z as this broad consumer, and then he or she comes very antithetical to what people have. And I think that look at that vibe attributed it to that way. So I think that's one factor that works in her favor. So you have that. You have the fact that New York has always had this pulse on whoever the next person up is and what they tell you about, whether it's what we saw with Cardi B. Now when she blew up, what you know, six, seven years ago, whether you saw it with pop smoke a couple years after. So New York has always had its finger on the pulse from that perspective. So I think that's part of it too. I also think though, that there's this aspect of. Dominating conversation in social media and with that type of discourse, but without just becoming someone who lives in social media, if that makes sense. The analogy I often think about is, Ben Affleck.  This is a, bit of unique comparison, but I have to think about how Ben Affleck would talk about back when him and J Lo were going through their breakup when they were together in the two thousands, he was saying, you know, I could sell all of the US weekly magazines in the world. Yeah. But, I can't sell a movie ticket. Yeah. That is the thing that's tough for me to be able to sell. And I think that sometimes artists can struggle with that too, where their names can always be trending and they can always be the trending topic on Twitter, or they could always be the topic of discussion on Shade Room or whatever the aggregator site is, but they don't necessarily drive that into streams. They don't drive that into hard ticket sales. And that's the stuff that true fan base development comes. And a lot of that stuff does take years that it's a natural funnel, right? Your social media and your followers should always be larger and then leading there, but it has to lead somewhere. But Ice Spice, at least from where she is, from a monthly stream perspective and how that stayed consistent. People clearly are listening and tuning into the music and then additionally, the biggest artist in the world is bringing her out on stage to do that. And those are some of the things we saw with Post Malone early in his career and how he would go out on stage with different people, even people that were of different genres and trying to see what that playbook looked like. So yeah, that's the piece of it that I think is different from her relative to even. Other artists we've seen come out, other female artists we've seen come out. Other black female artists in hiphop that we've seen come out, that I think is a bit unique about why I think she's been distinct in this way. [00:13:52] Denisha Kuhlor: I agree. I agree. I think she's. Immerse herself in culture in a way that's so authentic to her. and as a result, she's able to show up as the digitally native person that, that she is, Ice Spice and how she interacts even on social media when you look, is a lot less like an influencer. Which is what I would say, Cardi B kind of had when she was coming up, and maybe some other stars that really got fame. And while they definitely have mastered authenticity and they do it well, Ice Spice in some ways is just her, like, I feel like she's almost, And she's almost like, like that girl in school that's relatable, but you feel like, oh, I can't pull that off. So when it comes to the things that she's doing, it feels relatable enough. but it doesn't also encourage you to get out there and do it herself. And I think it's a, difference maybe nuance to the authenticity that we've, that we've seen in the past. which people can really appreciate. I would probably even argue now that people are better, consumers are more savvy when it comes to what feels like manufactured authenticity, right? Whether it's a Get Ready with Me video, but you're selling all these makeup products as a result or a day in my life, but you're really promoting the new product to target. Like consumers have become a lot more savvy. And as a result, they praise her for doing what they want, which is just that genuine authenticity when it comes to Princess Diana. And she mentioned this in the Billboard, article or the interview that she did, her cover story. She thought it was so weird that people were calling her that name and she didn't get it. but she felt like all she could do was embrace it, right? and embrace that title. and I think that's just another great example of how. You watch her into real time, like develop the ebbs and flows of coming this fame while still recognizing there's so much that she doesn't know. And I feel like people really appreciate that. Whereas unfortunately, and maybe this is just a. A privilege that comes to the new artist. Drake talks about this in his rap radar interview where he says There's a period as an artist much to what you were, referring to with the Post Malone, you know, example in terms of being prod out, like there's a period as a new artist for. Around maybe, probably six to 18 months where everyone is just discovering you and the, process of discovering you, right? A person getting their first iPhone or this process of discovery and experiencing this new thing for the first time feels really great. and I think she's found a way to really revel in it and capitalize in it, capitalize on it in a way that seems to have longevity, versus other artists.  [00:16:39] Dan Runcie: I wanna talk about that first piece you mentioned about the relatability. You said something along the lines of she makes it so you may not wanna necessarily replicate what she's doing, but there's something in it that seems attainable and relatable. In a way. Do you think that that's rare when it comes to artists? Like is there anyone that comes to mind that, let's say is a popular artist that you don't think that necessarily applies to?  [00:17:05] Denisha Kuhlor: Hmm. You know, I guess I can give the best examples as watching these artists sometimes what feels like making leaps and bounds to continue to remain relatable. obviously you look at like a Drake, and I think he does that really well, right? He goes to these places because you know, as much as it's helping, the artists. It's also giving him that currency of relatability. I mean, we have the piece on, Cho with Cardi B. she's about to do a song with Lato, and everyone's talking about now the conversation is how much Cardi B like mints a track and the co-sign she gives to a track, but it also keeps her relatable, and pushes her brand in a very specific, in a very specific way. and so I almost feel like, relatability is becoming a bit played, if that makes sense. people and labels are forcing it,  [00:18:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Like, would you say that Nicki Minaj is relatable in this way?  [00:18:03] Denisha Kuhlor: Oh, interesting. No, no, I wouldn't. I think that once an artist hits a certain amount of success that they inherently become unrelatable. As much as they tried  [00:18:12] Dan Runcie: Was like, was beat me up, Scotty Era, Nicki Minaj, relatable?.  [00:18:17] Denisha Kuhlor: Very much so. I think because and it sounds a little crazy, but I think the only part in that distinction at that time of the artist is fans are just supporting them, but it still somewhat feels like a peer-to-peer relationship, or there's less of a wall up, right? Their support, their appreciation feels more like a, bilateral conversation. Whereas once an artist hits a certain point you're getting none of that. and that's where I think it comes from. [00:18:45] Dan Runcie: It's interesting I asked about Nicki Minaj because I think that part of the relatability thing with Ice Spice is it reminds me of, it reminds me of Steph Curry in a way where someone like him can seem. He has other worldly talent, in my opinion but I do think that because of his size, because of his stature, he isn't this six foot nine LeBron figure that does things where it's like, I could never do that. Yeah. Right. But there's this thought of like, okay, well if I do my 10,000 shots just like Steph did or spent my 10,000 hours in the gym, yeah. I could get there. Yeah. And I feel like Ice Spice, at least from a flow in a Italian, in an image perspective. Yeah, there's a bit of that. Oh, she's your friend from high school or she was someone that was like part of that crew from that perspective. And you know, she has a unique flow and there's a aspect of it. But I asked the Nikki question because I was wondering, you have Nikki doing a verse like Monster, which was one of her big breakouts there. This was 2010 on Kanye's song. Does a verse like that almost make her unrelatable in a way where it's this talent is then shown to be like, oh wow, like can I do that? And it almost puts you into this Revere era, which is still a valuable place for an artist to be. But I wonder if that's a very different way with how someone like Ice Spice is looked at.  [00:20:03] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I think in the point you made about like, Voice and flow, right? One of the most, memorable things about, Ice Spice's the cadence in which she raps. It literally feels like you're kind of around your friend who's like rapping to a beat and, knows they can rap. But is not overdoing it. whereas with an artist like a Nicki Minaj, there's definitely a level of animation, that can approach the music, right. And I think that's a great thing, right? It's helped build a fan base, it adds a different level of maybe production to her and how she performs and kind of everything associated with her artistry. But it makes it very different from a relatability standpoint because anyone can feel like they can kind of maybe like kick a verse like Ice Spice. I don't know how many people are attempting to, go up against what she did. On what? Nick Minaj on Monster.  [00:20:56] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think that's part of the distinction there and I think this spans across a few heel, but that's one thing that can work in her, can work in her favor, especially as coming up now is very different than Nikki coming up in the blog era. It's just, yeah, a different dynamic of how artists come up and how you get, how you break through. And one of the things that I think is a bit more unique now is the importance of cultivating fan bases early and having that dynamic where, you know, Nikki could talk about, you know, charging 50K for a versatile album out in her days of, I think in a lot of ways that reflected where things were just from, especially that era coming up. Like with the mixtapes, I spice granted she could probably command more just given, you know, inflation and all the other things related to music. I do think that her cultivating a fan base is something that likely came earlier though, because I think it probably took a couple of years for the Barbs to really materialize and become how they were, you know, well after Nikki's first album. But the Munchkins or the Spice cabinet, as some people call them, I Spice Spice fan base is already here and is reflective of how artists are thinking about cultivating and growing things now, because you need to do this stuff earlier. We have the tools available in a way that weren't necessarily available to someone like Nicki or someone like Drake or J. Cole in the late two thousands when all of them were coming up in that wave. Is there anything you've noticed from her from that perspective that stands out that is unique? Yeah, that is something that  [00:22:31] Denisha Kuhlor: You know what's interesting or what feels interesting? I feel like the fan base, or the audience still feels like it's very much defined or it's being defined. And the reason I say that is because there does also seem to be a trend of drop off when it comes to artists who have fan bases around, or largely off being the people's champ. Only because the bigger they get, it feels like there's less of a need to root for them because they're gonna be okay, right? They've hit a certain inflection point in which they will be. Okay. I think What is interesting about, Ice Spice is they feel like everyone's learning in real time, and they feel like they get to be a part of it. So in some ways, I do think that her fan base is interesting because it's like they're co-creating a bit, in a way that hasn't that other artists, maybe they've wanted to, but like the true actual product and creation to a product process hasn't been as interactive as, hasn't been as interactive as before. There's no, wall the way with other artists. It's like, oh, okay, I can, you know, the artist is doing this and that. There's really no wall, it feels like the conversations or the quote tweets that she's having on Twitter really feel like conversations amongst friends from how they crack jokes to the colloquialisms that are there. And I think the way she chooses to use her extra resources are done in a way that only continues to build a fan base. And like when you think about, her record with, Pink Panthers, they could have shot that video anywhere. They chose to do it on top of a building in the Bronx. And so, I look at it and I can only see more and more how those fans that maybe came because they were rooting for her as the people's champ, feel like they can stay because the relatability hasn't disappeared. [00:24:27] Dan Runcie: It's making me think of a few things I think. I think the co-creating thing, especially with how she interacts with fans on social media, there is a aspect of that is her feedback loop. That's how she's getting a vibe for what works and what doesn't, and in many ways they can be so, protective isn't the right word, but they can be so clear about their emotions and they don't hold anything back and they're gonna say things that even people in Ice Spice's circle probably wouldn't feel comfortable to say, but you can see all of that. Exactly. Some of that is, but once you're able to weed out the extremes, both from the haters and the people that are, you know, so unapologetic, they're blind to any type of, you know, constructive criticism that could support her career. There's good value that I think comes from that. The piece I want to talk about is the team that she has around her, because I read that same billboard article you wrote, and there are multiple entities that she's working with that have called her. A global superstar and thinks that she is the next one that is on that way, whether it's capital records or 10 K projects or, her manager or even some of the others. What is the word? What does global superstar mean to you?  [00:25:37] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I mean, I think that's definitely an interesting, interesting term. as someone who thinks about just how global the music industry has become, I think of global superstars as, The examples I would give are probably like a Bad Bunny or a Burna Boy. in some ways, they're really able to command or pull tickets in, in any market. I mean, I got the opportunity to see Burna Boy in Paris recently, and I was like shocked, but not surprised in the sense that. Like he can do hard tickets anywhere. Bad Bunny seems to have that same effect. Now, I do think that, and something I've just learned over time is it's a tricky designation because. The world knows a lot about the United States. the world knows a lot about New York when you think about how many shows or, you know, how many things are covered about New York, the world knows. So it's easy to feel like you have an understanding or an affinity to music about something that you know a lot about now, does it necessarily resonate the same way? I think of like the little baby in his documentary saying once he started traveling, he realized there were hoods all around the world. but I think that. there's obviously, definitely the potential to be, but I don't know if I could necessarily, say that just yet, because right now, to me, global Superstar feels defined a lot by touring. [00:27:07] Dan Runcie: I do think that is a threshold there, that's something I look at and I know it's something that's fluid and I think I have a higher bar than a lot of people, at least from a peer numbers perspective. Granted, these things can fluctuate, but I wanna see someone that can at least headline an arena tour, at least. Either on a nationwide perspective, at least in the US or can span beyond that. I wanna see someone that can at least sell 250K units. Yeah. At least in the US in their first week if they are a US, if they are, you know, side to a US-based record label. I think it can change elsewhere, but I wanna be able to see that. I also wanna be able to see some type of, I also wanna be able to see some type of reach that spans beyond just those metrics as well. If you are able to ask someone that is outside of the circles of paying attention to this stuff, can they name you a few unique things or something identifiable like, oh, that's so-and-so with this. It doesn't need to be extreme as, does your mom know who so-and-so is? But I wanna be able to at least yeah. See that and at least things from. Being able to create moments. Yeah. Of there's something that you do that does create moments there. The challenge that I think that definition and those terms can have, I know it could be a bit rigid, and even if I'm using those thresholds as well, there's maybe less than. Maybe around 20 or so people in all of pop music, in popular music, not just like Pop is in genre, but like all of popular contemporary music right now, they're probably fitting in. Yeah, that category of what I just said in less than 10 in hip hop. If we're saying overall, because I do think these six Fletcher, you can come and go there, but I do think that. That sometimes gets a bit missings because we do throw these terms around liberally. The thing is though, if you're a record label, you're in the business of trying to admit these people. Yeah. And for many of the reports that we've seen, it's becoming harder and harder. Yeah. To do that especially for a western-based English speaking artist. Exactly. The market saturated, the names you just mentioned, it's no surprise that two of the more recent superstars that we've had at that level, Burna Boy and bad Bunny, are not primarily English speaking artists from the music that they put out and they emerge from different parts of the world that are not the United States or you know, the UK and Western Europe, right? Yeah. Like those things are not coincidences. All those things fall in line. So it's one of these things where it makes sense if you're going to put the machine behind someone. Yeah, it does make sense to put it behind someone like Ice Spice because that's what you have. You wanna be able to put things out there. And this is an industry driven by media and PR, so. Anything, even like that Ice Spice article that we saw on Billboard, very intentional just given the relationship that the major publications in music have with their major record labels themselves. So once you think about those things a bit deeply, It's great that someone like Ice Spice is getting that push to have everything behind her as well. You just wanna make sure that we're not necessarily putting a carpet for the horse, or even putting expectations that may seem a bit too strong on someone that. We've even seen in the past couple months continuing to develop their career in a natural way. Someone that's 23 years old, she did one festival performance, got some mixed reviews from that, and then now she's on stage with the biggest arts in the world, and that's gonna continue to develop. Like these things take time, but I just don't know if this era has the patience to be able to. Wait that out and see how these exist.  [00:30:46] Denisha Kuhlor: I completely agree. And I also think, you know, like you said, the market is saturated and consumers have more access to music that maybe matches their local appetite, right? We've seen the rise of, drill music, obviously, you know, starting from Chicago to doing what it's done in New York to UK drill right. To Parisian or even, you know, French drill, right? So I think it, it makes it difficult because, as she continues to excel, right? There are people or artists that can also, hit the market and use certain elements of the framework, to reach maybe a small but core audience in a market, that she's not fully built, dominance yet. I mean, it's been a trend in, tech, whether it's replicating Airbnb for other markets or other companies. And so I think that it's definitely a hard feat right now because, People are very unapologetic before, and rap, right? Felt like there could only be one at a time, or this concept of first ladies, in rap groups. Yeah. Especially for women. Exactly. And now you don't even, I mean, female rappers really, frankly, an outdated term. and, very much so. So you just think, oh, there's, you know, go's doing her thing. Lato, Cardi e everyone, the industry is thriving, but as a result, maybe the dominance of one has definitely decreased, [00:32:06] Dan Runcie: And I think that fragmentation, the fact that there can be more than one, the fact that we see multiple people being able to succeed is good. It also makes me think of some of the critiques and some of the responses that we've seen from some of the releases, and I feel like we've seen this pattern. I've noticed it, I think we've talked about this as well, this pattern that frankly is rooted in sexism, where every couple of months there is a woman, there's a woman in hip hop that releases an album or a mixtape, or they announce a tour, something that has some, they do something that is further down their funnel in terms of either hard tickets or trying to get some hard album sales to put things out. And the numbers may not necessarily be as high as people would think. Yeah. And this is a artist that would have at this point, Tens of millions of followers on all the social channels combined. They're often in the discussion. They have plenty of co-signs. They're assigned to some of the strongest record labels in the game, but then there's always someone that says, oh, well, how did so-and-so not even be able to sell 20,000 units in a week? How does so-and-so not even be able to sell out this tour? Or they can't do this? It's frustrating in a lot of ways. But it's always women that we see this discourse happen with. It makes me think of a few things. I think there's a bit of a disconnect in terms of understanding what numbers mean. Yeah. And what they don't. But there's also people just conflating followers with fans and not necessarily understanding that dynamic and how that dynamic is often different for women because of how the industry wants to portray certain people, what they're selling and what platforms sell and What you put on a platform can be very different for an artist just because that artist is a man and those things, I think it's frustrating to see, and I don't want that to happen too, Ice Spice, but we've seen it happen to so many of the names that you mentioned as well earlier. Yeah. Is that just the way, is that just the dynamic? How do we Yeah. Break out? I, I think, and not that you have the answers too, but this is something I want.  [00:34:13] Denisha Kuhlor: Very true. Very true. I think, you know, it's interesting, even in those names that I've mentioned, I think the only one, and she's embraced this dynamic really well, that's kind of been like, you know, I don't really know how I got here. I don't feel like I'm supposed to be here. It's been like a gorilla and she's been, you know, very vocal about kind of maybe talking about some of the dynamics or pressures in the industry. I think it's, obviously a multifaceted approach, but what I will say is that, media and music sometimes can feel so combined. And when you look at what the media wants to push out and how they, portray certain stories and what they choose to cover, right? When it comes to everything from interviews to, even cover stories of, of these artists, I think unfortunately, it puts some of these women or some of these artists in a tough position based off what they wanna focus on or how they're portrayed. This sounds a little crazy, but I think, you know, the person who could probably, if they ever wanted a side project to maybe change some of that narrative is actually a Kris Jenner. I mean, we've seen what she's done with her daughters, but I think she's been very brilliant. I mean, I think to my knowledge, two of her daughters, you know, have done the Forbes cover, but I think she's been very thoughtful around shifting a specific type of narrative. Whereas the attention could have been garnered from, you know, beauty and, societal expectations around beauty. Very much shifting that into the conversion of things that lead to real dollars, whether it's Kylie with her Lip Kits or Kim now with Skims who used Ice Spice, um, in an effort for relatability. So, I unfortunately think that so early when an artist starts to blow, it's the team around you is calling a lot of the shots and getting things done. And it's hard to realize maybe until you see it for years, until years later, maybe how some of the small nuances in how you were portrayed or some of the opportunities you took, impacted your ability to, be taken seriously as a, decades long artist. [00:36:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think part of the dynamic too, and this especially applies with women in hip hop, is that the teams around them and them themselves, some of their social posts or some of the things that they put out that they're selling sex. Yeah. They're doing the glam shots. Yeah. They're being out there. which is good. They should feel empowered. They have a platform and so many people then feel empowered just seeing them be bold that themselves. The thing is though, because based on these platforms, the way they work and the algorithms, people are gonna follow you some or a portion of people are gonna follow you just because of that. They are attracted, they're entertained. Yeah. And they wanna see that. And there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. But that's going to attract a certain number of followers in a way that Kendrick Lamar or J. Cole, who barely tweeted and have never been positioned as male sex symbols in that way, yeah. Aren't going to attract that. So when you look at the, if there's a way to segment. Looking at Instagram, okay. Who follows you and why do they follow you? It's very different. Yeah. And that's why it's no surprise that the most followed art, the most followed hip hop artist on Instagram is Nicki Minaj, and it isn't even close. Yeah. And a lot of it is because of that and. This is also someone in Nicki Minaj. If you then took that same look and you look at, okay, who are the artists that are selling the most, whether it's streams or it's albums, it's different. So I think sometimes people forget that, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I'm glad you brought up the Kris Jenner piece of this, because one of the things that she obviously has done well is finding, okay, based on the audience that we've cultivated, Where is that product market fit based on who they're reaching on Instagram, based on who they're reaching from this? Exactly. And I think sometimes that's part of the challenge with a woman artist and specifically a woman artist in hip hop. If some of the posts may lean a bit more towards that, but it's one of those things where it shouldn't be that way because you should be able to post, you know, a sexy image and it isn't doing that. But the concept that you put out, lines up with word people see, so there's always a bit of that challenge. There's always a bit of that dynamic there. And I see Ice Spice as well, someone that is attractive, someone that does have a lot of followers cuz people are bought into her look and. I don't want that to be the same necessarily. [00:38:35] Denisha Kuhlor: You look at an artist like No name, who I love. I'm a huge no name fan. And she, you know, wraps with a soft spoken voice as well. and you know, I would argue no name fans wanna talk to her about books cuz she has a book club and, they, you know, so I think maybe the. The way you can also combat that is having like true pillars maybe of your personality or that you include as part of the narrative that aren't just visual. Because if you teach people to be visual creatures or approach you visually, that is what they will see. That is what they will, that is what they will default to. And from an artist awareness perspective, you're getting the, visual part of artist awareness. But when it comes to the deeper part of, you know, the artist's story and what you represent, you're not capturing that as well. And that's the difference between maybe a casual fan, a listener's turn casual fan cuz they follow you and they like you. They like your vibe to a truly engaged and deep-rooted fan.  [00:39:34] Dan Runcie: This is something that I think a Cardi B also is able to do well, just I think back to during the 2020 presidential election and she's sitting down with Bernie Sanders. Yeah. There was nothing related to music or related to, you know, selling sex or anything like that. She's been talking about her interest in that, or whether it's her interest in FDR or other things. There was something else there that I think had people brought in. I think which I think has always helped with her in that perspective. Yeah. Another person I think I feel a bit bad for in this regard was Megan Stallion because I look at the rise and the narrative and the things that she was talking about pre-the Tory Lanez shooting. And so much of it, you heard so much more then about, you know, her own goals, graduating college Yeah. And actually wanted to start the healthcare facilities. Yeah. And the hotties and, you know, driving the boat. all of the stuff that she was able to pull off there. And I think since then, not only was she much more selective about the media things that she did, yeah. Almost every media appearance that she's had, to some extent is addressing Yes. Something related to the Tory Lanez' shooting. Yeah. And of course it's a very traumatic thing, but you just think about how impactful that was. Yeah. When everything was going in the direction that it was Yeah, yeah. For her career. So I look at that in just another case where granted, she's still doing quite well for herself from a career perspective, but things definitely changed after that.  [00:41:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, Cardi B is a great one. and even, even me, I would say somewhere probably between casual fan or in that range, I can very much remember all the things Cardi B does, whether it's her love of civics and politics to, there was a tweet and she was talking about the rise of grocery prices and someone was like, why are you talking about this? And she was like, I very much care about, you know, the day-to-day life of the average American because. I've done well, but I support families, I support my family, all of that. And then I thought it was brilliance. She either did, I don't wanna get it wrong. but did either eve near essence of black publication, and the family shoot, right? With Offset having a blended family, the challenges and, that they've went through there. And I think that, yeah, she's so brilliantly done that By just being herself. It does feel like the industry has like a one track or fixed mind, sometimes in that once this is what you are known for. It feels hard to break away from that. And what's interesting is I do think in, Meg's case that the way she's navigating it now, whether it's just taking some time off, saying that she'll be back when she's ready, Gives her the space to maybe come back out with a bit of a reinvention. and so I'm excited to see what that would look like. And in the way Beyonce came back out as Sasha Fierce, like what does it look like to, for hope for her to hopefully have that opportunity to reinvent herself back into whatever artist she wants to be.  [00:42:31] Dan Runcie: And I think that's the key thing. There is so much that they still have going. All these artists are still young. I mean most of them are still under 30. Yeah. I actually forget how old Cardi B is, but I think she still is. There's still plenty of runway. There's still plenty of this. Cardi B still hasn't released another album since the debut album that she had. Meg, her others still haven't gone on tour, even Nikki hasn't gone on tour in a while. Yeah, and we haven't seen a true album come out from her since Queen, which was almost five years ago at this point. And we're still waiting for Ice Spices debut album. So excited to see where it comes. I think there's a lot of opportunity. I think we talked about some of the challenges that are there and some of the headwinds, but before we close things out, any other thoughts on Ice Spice?  [00:43:14] Denisha Kuhlor: Lastly, and to the point you've made. I think maybe some of it comes down to, intentions or even our desires. I think COVID, it really continued to be a hard look at the daily lives we live and what work-life balance looks like. And as so many of us go through that as individuals and human beings, artists are going through that, artists are going through that as well. And Ice Spice this case, I think with some of the business and partner decisions she's made, signing a capital, having the distribution network that comes with, World Star and World Star's Media Network, it gives her the privilege to release a song and know that distribution is already built in and not maybe have to do those 50 radio stops.  It gives her that sort of privilege and I think we're going to see a world with artists. And Cardi is interesting to that point too, where they might never tour. They can sustain a lifestyle that they want to live doing just enough.  [00:44:14] Dan Runcie: Cardi is on that private tour gig. She's on that Lionel Richie ship.  [00:44:17] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly, doing just enough. And I think that's really attractive. And so, you know, when you think about the attitudes that Gen Z brings towards the workplace. It's really interesting to see how, she will, you know, releasing a six song, six songs, right? For an initial body of an initial body of work before we used to 10 to 12. [00:44:39] Dan Runcie: A multimillionaire giggle.  [00:44:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see kind of what maybe what does the new era of a global superstar look like? Maybe it looks like a lot less tour dates and a lot less music, and a lot more brand partnerships and other streams of income. And, as a result, we'll get the artists, but in a way that makes it feel worth their while for a long time.  [00:45:06] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And I think that's a good point to end on. So Ice Spice and team. If you're listening, we wish you all the best of luck with this and we'll be following, we'll be following along. Denisha pleasure as always. [00:45:17] Denisha Kuhlor: Thank you so much for having me.  [00:45:18] Dan Runcie Audio Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Even by today’s standards, Ice Spice’s meteoric rise is something else. She first hit it big in August 2022 with the viral release of “Munch.” Since then, Ice Spice has the most top 5 hits on the Billboard 100 in 2023 and guest appeared on Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour.


How did we get here? Her aura, her music, her cinnamon-colored curls, and more have helped her stand out in an oversaturated industry.


To explain how Ice Spice’s star was born and where it could go next, I brought on friend of the pod, Denisha Kuhlor. Here’s what we covered:


[2:07] The People’s Princess 

[4:11] Ice Spice’s success by the numbers 

[6:23] “Always shipping” has kept Ice Spice’s momentum 

[7:26] Performing on Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour

[09:49] What makes Ice Spice unique? 

[13:24] Artists’ relatability factor

[20:27] Cultivating the Munchkins fanbase

[24:00] What is a music global superstar in 2023?

[31:39] Sexist dialogue around female rappers

[35:56] How female rappers stand out

[42:03] Ice Spice’s intentions


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor


This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital


Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.


TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: What is interesting about, Ice Spice is they feel like everyone's learning in real time, and they feel like they get to be a part of it. So in some ways, I do think that her fan base is interesting because it's like they're co-creating a bit, in a way that hasn't that other artists, maybe they've wanted to, but like the true actual product and creation to a product process hasn't been as interactive as, hasn't been as interactive as before.

There's no wall the way with other artists. There's Really no wall. It feels like the conversations or the quote tweets that she's having on Twitter really feel like conversations amongst friends from how they crack jokes to the colloquialisms that are there. 

[00:00:45] Dan Runcie Audio Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:01:13] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Two years ago. Ice Spice was a college student at SUNY Purchase doing her thing, like most college students do today. She's had one of the most Meteoric rises, especially in the past year. Everything that's happened in ice spices career since she dropped Munch last summer.

It has been very fascinating to watch how a star blows up in 2023. In 2023 in this era that we're in now. And today's episode is a breakdown on that. What does it all mean? How did she get here? What did Ice Spice do differently that other artists right now haven't been able to do to reach the levels that she has?

And how do we make sense of it all with what to expect with her career moving forward? If you ask the people on her team, whether that's the record labels, the management, the folks that she's working with, they think they have the next global superstar on their hands, but what does that term even mean, and what does that term mean today in an era where it's harder than ever for today's bright young stars to reach the same levels that the past global superstars have reached, especially for an artist from the us.

To break it all down, we're joined by friend of the show, Denisha Kuhlor, who's the founder of Stan. She does great work in analyzing artist strategies and looking at Ice Spice and the Munchkins was a great opportunity for us to dive in. So here's our deep dive on Ice Spice. Hope you enjoy it.

[00:02:35] Dan Runcie: All right, today we are back and we're gonna talk about the Princess Diana of hip hop, herself Ice Spice. It's only right and we're gonna talk about it and break it all down with someone who has written about her and does studies on fan bases as well. So you were the perfect person to have on Denisha Kuhlor, welcome back. Hi. Thanks for having me back. Ice Spice is so fascinating in a lot of ways because. go back to just two years ago. We weren't necessarily having conversations about her. She had released a few singles back then. Some were in collaboration with her dad, who is also a rapper.

But things really blew up last summer. She puts out Munch, it becomes a drill anthem, a New York anthem. And then we just see this meteoric rise and you look at where she is now. Here are a few stats just to level set this conversation. She has 36 million monthly Spotify listeners that puts her above people like Jay-Z, Tyler the creator, Jack Harlow, the Beatles.

So she's in pretty high company there and she's continued to stay in that area. And just for some context here, Spotify says that this is from their most recent loud and clear report. Spotify says that 130 artist catalogs on their platform are generating at least 5 million annually. So the artist catalogs themselves.

Obviously the splits can be different, so if you use those numbers, and you said that I is currently 81st. In terms of all artists there, she's clearly in that lane. Obviously, you have to be able to maintain that for a year, but if you also assume that Spotify itself is roughly a quarter of the. Recorded music revenue that comes through, that's over 20 million dollars that we're seeing there.

So we are clearly seeing that she has things from a stream perspective and she just came out for three nights of Taylor Swift's show in the Meadowlands at MetLife Stadium. So how do you make sense of this all? Where do you think about Ice spice and the rise and where she is right now in her career?

[00:04:39] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think our space has been so fun to watch. It feels like every few years there's a people's champ, and they always seem to tend to originate from New York. and so seeing her do what she's done with in some ways what feels like, her back against the wall, when Munch came out, it was a lot of critical, critical takes, and the reception wasn't necessarily all positive. So to see how she's kind of, flipped this moment and the light shining on her into a real, you know, bonafide career based off the statue just mentioned is really exciting.

[00:05:12] Dan Runcie: I think it highlights. What's possible now, today we've seen artists blow up and become household names in a short amount of time that isn't relatively new. If anything, you can honestly say it's harder to do now, just given the fact that it does take even more work and more time to develop a true superstar.

And I do think that's a word that gets thrown around quite a bit. The thing with ice spice though, is that. He's also someone we've seen continue to maintain momentum. Yeah. In an era where someone could be hot for a few months and then you just don't necessarily have that moment again. Yeah. As back early, back as eight years ago, Fetty Wap had that one summer in 2015 where he just had hit after hit.

Yeah. And they went consistently with it. That story and the challenges there have been told endless times, but that wasn't a long-lived experience either. And Ice Spice is clearly been able to even expand that from that perspective. I do think that I've heard a few people talk about how fame and talent are things that have had a very symbiotic relationship for years in music, just given how it was very hard to separate the two, especially if you were an artist that rose to the top. Yeah. you had to have a full package at least to be able to be in the conversation. I spice though, as someone who's continued to rise in, I think she has had songs that people liked, songs that people didn't like, people criticizing her flow, people criticizing this, and even some of her performances and things like that.

But she's continued to build and grow in public, and it hasn't necessarily knocked her in any type of way. 

[00:06:51] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think she wins because she takes like a startup approach in the sense that she's always shipping, while, you know, Munch had its audience and its fan base. Her follow-ups definitely one introduced her to new audiences, but allowed her to keep shipping and testing and iterating on what works. She definitely takes an approach or it feels like just when you think like, okay, like this moment is done, or, you know, the time has lapsed. she's coming out with something new and something that's not expected, and frankly, something that just continues to place her even bigger on the world stage, right?

She went from remixes that felt like a true collaboration amongst peers with Pink Panthers and boys a liar to. Getting to work with greats like Nikki or, Taylor Swift, where it feels like now they're saying, Hey, we like this girl. We're embracing her. and we wanna take her to the next step in the industry.

So with each time she ships, it feels like it just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

[00:07:54] Dan Runcie: Let's talk a bit about Taylor Swift, because you mentioned that there. This performance got a lot of buzz because Taylor Swift really hasn't brought many people out on the tour that she has. This tour may go down as one of the highest grossing tours that we've seen, and she's coming out and saying that I spice is the future, and we're seeing everyone from, whether it's her record labels and folks that she worked with more.

Granted, we expect them to, that's their job to promote the folks that they have there, but from a live performance perspective, it wasn't always like this because she did get some critical comments from more recent performances that she did up to this point, and we've seen those types of things derail artists.

Yeah. And be challenging to them. Can you talk a bit about that? 

[00:08:39] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so I think, you know, Taylor Swift, bringing out and embracing, ice Spice was really interesting. ice Spice definitely has this dynamic of, you know, the people's champ and as she continues to, as she continues to grow people, people rooting for her.

And so just from like, What that moment meant, I think for people to see someone who hadn't had any music, who barely had a Spotify profile probably two years ago or three years ago. to be an on a stage in a filled out arena nonetheless, was awesome. But I also think it's very much a testament to her ability and kind of the consumer's ability to, be forgetful.

And when I say that, she obviously looked a lot more comfortable on stage, but the rolling loud performance, I think brought a lot of critique, right? it was just the novice fan on platforms like Shade Room or Instagram, talking about her performance. to folks in the industry talking more about the need for, you know, artist development and, a and r I feel like a lot of people could have come out of that moment very differently.

or in some ways been so effect, offended that. It hurt their career but in even, you know, reading Ice Space's, last interview with Billboard, she talks a lot about her desire to exercise has solely been fueled by her wanting to improve her breath work on stage. and so you see a real commitment.

I even noticed it seeing the clips from her wireless performance, just looking more comfortable on stage thinking through her set list. I think you see a real commitment. Two on, on her part. two, want to improve her craft and become a better performer. 

[00:10:17] Dan Runcie: So you mentioned a few things that definitely contributed to her rise. She definitely has the investment. The team behind her at Capital and others wanna see this happen. The thing is though, record labels are always making investments in everyone. They always try to put money behind new talent, and it made me think what is unique about her.

Some people feel like there is a visual aspect to this. Not even in just the aspect of her being attractive, but having the distinct look, right? That like cinnamon afro, you know, it this like very striking from a visual perspective or just like, well who is that? Because that doesn't look like someone that we've seen before. Not necessarily in this overt stunt way. Yeah. But just someone that's being themselves and doing their thing. In a similar dynamic to the way that when Billy Eilish had first came out, she wasn't dressing the same way that Pop Stars did. And she was, had this whole vibe, and it was around this time that people were trying to understand Gen Z as this broad consumer, and then he or she comes very antithetical to what people have.

And I think that look at that vibe attributed it to that way. So I think that's one factor that works in her favor. So you have that. You have the fact that New York has always had this pulse on whoever the next person up is and what they tell you about, whether it's what we saw with Cardi B. Now when she blew up, what you know, six, seven years ago, whether you saw it with pop smoke a couple years after.

So New York has always had its finger on the pulse from that perspective. So I think that's part of it too. I also think though, that there's this aspect of. Dominating conversation in social media and with that type of discourse, but without just becoming someone who lives in social media, if that makes sense.

The analogy I often think about is, Ben Affleck. 

This is a, bit of unique comparison, but I have to think about how Ben Affleck would talk about back when him and J Lo were going through their breakup when they were together in the two thousands, he was saying, you know, I could sell all of the US weekly magazines in the world.

Yeah. But, I can't sell a movie ticket. Yeah. That is the thing that's tough for me to be able to sell. And I think that sometimes artists can struggle with that too, where their names can always be trending and they can always be the trending topic on Twitter, or they could always be the topic of discussion on Shade Room or whatever the aggregator site is, but they don't necessarily drive that into streams. They don't drive that into hard ticket sales. And that's the stuff that true fan base development comes. And a lot of that stuff does take years that it's a natural funnel, right? Your social media and your followers should always be larger and then leading there, but it has to lead somewhere.

But Ice Spice, at least from where she is, from a monthly stream perspective and how that stayed consistent. People clearly are listening and tuning into the music and then additionally, the biggest artist in the world is bringing her out on stage to do that. And those are some of the things we saw with Post Malone early in his career and how he would go out on stage with different people, even people that were of different genres and trying to see what that playbook looked like.

So yeah, that's the piece of it that I think is different from her relative to even. Other artists we've seen come out, other female artists we've seen come out. Other black female artists in hiphop that we've seen come out, that I think is a bit unique about why I think she's been distinct in this way.

[00:13:52] Denisha Kuhlor: I agree. I agree. I think she's. Immerse herself in culture in a way that's so authentic to her. and as a result, she's able to show up as the digitally native person that, that she is, Ice Spice and how she interacts even on social media when you look, is a lot less like an influencer.

Which is what I would say, Cardi B kind of had when she was coming up, and maybe some other stars that really got fame. And while they definitely have mastered authenticity and they do it well, Ice Spice in some ways is just her, like, I feel like she's almost, And she's almost like, like that girl in school that's relatable, but you feel like, oh, I can't pull that off.

So when it comes to the things that she's doing, it feels relatable enough. but it doesn't also encourage you to get out there and do it herself. And I think it's a, difference maybe nuance to the authenticity that we've, that we've seen in the past. which people can really appreciate.

I would probably even argue now that people are better, consumers are more savvy when it comes to what feels like manufactured authenticity, right? Whether it's a Get Ready with Me video, but you're selling all these makeup products as a result or a day in my life, but you're really promoting the new product to target. Like consumers have become a lot more savvy. And as a result, they praise her for doing what they want, which is just that genuine authenticity when it comes to Princess Diana. And she mentioned this in the Billboard, article or the interview that she did, her cover story.

She thought it was so weird that people were calling her that name and she didn't get it. but she felt like all she could do was embrace it, right? and embrace that title. and I think that's just another great example of how. You watch her into real time, like develop the ebbs and flows of coming this fame while still recognizing there's so much that she doesn't know.

And I feel like people really appreciate that. Whereas unfortunately, and maybe this is just a. A privilege that comes to the new artist. Drake talks about this in his rap radar interview where he says There's a period as an artist much to what you were, referring to with the Post Malone, you know, example in terms of being prod out, like there's a period as a new artist for. Around maybe, probably six to 18 months where everyone is just discovering you and the, process of discovering you, right? A person getting their first iPhone or this process of discovery and experiencing this new thing for the first time feels really great.

and I think she's found a way to really revel in it and capitalize in it, capitalize on it in a way that seems to have longevity, versus other artists. 

[00:16:39] Dan Runcie: I wanna talk about that first piece you mentioned about the relatability. You said something along the lines of she makes it so you may not wanna necessarily replicate what she's doing, but there's something in it that seems attainable and relatable.

In a way. Do you think that that's rare when it comes to artists? Like is there anyone that comes to mind that, let's say is a popular artist that you don't think that necessarily applies to? 

[00:17:05] Denisha Kuhlor: Hmm. You know, I guess I can give the best examples as watching these artists sometimes what feels like making leaps and bounds to continue to remain relatable.

obviously you look at like a Drake, and I think he does that really well, right? He goes to these places because you know, as much as it's helping, the artists. It's also giving him that currency of relatability. I mean, we have the piece on, Cho with Cardi B. she's about to do a song with Lato, and everyone's talking about now the conversation is how much Cardi B like mints a track and the co-sign she gives to a track, but it also keeps her relatable, and pushes her brand in a very specific, in a very specific way.

and so I almost feel like, relatability is becoming a bit played, if that makes sense. people and labels are forcing it, 

[00:18:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Like, would you say that Nicki Minaj is relatable in this way? 

[00:18:03] Denisha Kuhlor: Oh, interesting. No, no, I wouldn't. I think that once an artist hits a certain amount of success that they inherently become unrelatable.

As much as they tried 

[00:18:12] Dan Runcie: Was like, was beat me up, Scotty Era, Nicki Minaj, relatable?. 

[00:18:17] Denisha Kuhlor: Very much so. I think because and it sounds a little crazy, but I think the only part in that distinction at that time of the artist is fans are just supporting them, but it still somewhat feels like a peer-to-peer relationship, or there's less of a wall up, right? Their support, their appreciation feels more like a, bilateral conversation. Whereas once an artist hits a certain point you're getting none of that. and that's where I think it comes from.

[00:18:45] Dan Runcie: It's interesting I asked about Nicki Minaj because I think that part of the relatability thing with Ice Spice is it reminds me of, it reminds me of Steph Curry in a way where someone like him can seem. He has other worldly talent, in my opinion but I do think that because of his size, because of his stature, he isn't this six foot nine LeBron figure that does things where it's like, I could never do that.

Yeah. Right. But there's this thought of like, okay, well if I do my 10,000 shots just like Steph did or spent my 10,000 hours in the gym, yeah. I could get there. Yeah. And I feel like Ice Spice, at least from a flow in a Italian, in an image perspective. Yeah, there's a bit of that. Oh, she's your friend from high school or she was someone that was like part of that crew from that perspective.

And you know, she has a unique flow and there's a aspect of it. But I asked the Nikki question because I was wondering, you have Nikki doing a verse like Monster, which was one of her big breakouts there. This was 2010 on Kanye's song. Does a verse like that almost make her unrelatable in a way where it's this talent is then shown to be like, oh wow, like can I do that? And it almost puts you into this Revere era, which is still a valuable place for an artist to be. But I wonder if that's a very different way with how someone like Ice Spice is looked at. 

[00:20:03] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I think in the point you made about like, Voice and flow, right? One of the most, memorable things about, Ice Spice's the cadence in which she raps.

It literally feels like you're kind of around your friend who's like rapping to a beat and, knows they can rap. But is not overdoing it. whereas with an artist like a Nicki Minaj, there's definitely a level of animation, that can approach the music, right. And I think that's a great thing, right?

It's helped build a fan base, it adds a different level of maybe production to her and how she performs and kind of everything associated with her artistry. But it makes it very different from a relatability standpoint because anyone can feel like they can kind of maybe like kick a verse like Ice Spice. I don't know how many people are attempting to, go up against what she did. On what? Nick Minaj on Monster. 

[00:20:56] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think that's part of the distinction there and I think this spans across a few heel, but that's one thing that can work in her, can work in her favor, especially as coming up now is very different than Nikki coming up in the blog era.

It's just, yeah, a different dynamic of how artists come up and how you get, how you break through. And one of the things that I think is a bit more unique now is the importance of cultivating fan bases early and having that dynamic where, you know, Nikki could talk about, you know, charging 50K for a versatile album out in her days of, I think in a lot of ways that reflected where things were just from, especially that era coming up.

Like with the mixtapes, I spice granted she could probably command more just given, you know, inflation and all the other things related to music. I do think that her cultivating a fan base is something that likely came earlier though, because I think it probably took a couple of years for the Barbs to really materialize and become how they were, you know, well after Nikki's first album.

But the Munchkins or the Spice cabinet, as some people call them, I Spice Spice fan base is already here and is reflective of how artists are thinking about cultivating and growing things now, because you need to do this stuff earlier. We have the tools available in a way that weren't necessarily available to someone like Nicki or someone like Drake or J. Cole in the late two thousands when all of them were coming up in that wave.

Is there anything you've noticed from her from that perspective that stands out that is unique? Yeah, that is something that 

[00:22:31] Denisha Kuhlor: You know what's interesting or what feels interesting? I feel like the fan base, or the audience still feels like it's very much defined or it's being defined. And the reason I say that is because there does also seem to be a trend of drop off when it comes to artists who have fan bases around, or largely off being the people's champ. Only because the bigger they get, it feels like there's less of a need to root for them because they're gonna be okay, right? They've hit a certain inflection point in which they will be.

Okay. I think What is interesting about, Ice Spice is they feel like everyone's learning in real time, and they feel like they get to be a part of it. So in some ways, I do think that her fan base is interesting because it's like they're co-creating a bit, in a way that hasn't that other artists, maybe they've wanted to, but like the true actual product and creation to a product process hasn't been as interactive as, hasn't been as interactive as before.

There's no, wall the way with other artists. It's like, oh, okay, I can, you know, the artist is doing this and that. There's really no wall, it feels like the conversations or the quote tweets that she's having on Twitter really feel like conversations amongst friends from how they crack jokes to the colloquialisms that are there.

And I think the way she chooses to use her extra resources are done in a way that only continues to build a fan base. And like when you think about, her record with, Pink Panthers, they could have shot that video anywhere. They chose to do it on top of a building in the Bronx. And so, I look at it and I can only see more and more how those fans that maybe came because they were rooting for her as the people's champ, feel like they can stay because the relatability hasn't disappeared.

[00:24:27] Dan Runcie: It's making me think of a few things I think. I think the co-creating thing, especially with how she interacts with fans on social media, there is a aspect of that is her feedback loop. That's how she's getting a vibe for what works and what doesn't, and in many ways they can be so, protective isn't the right word, but they can be so clear about their emotions and they don't hold anything back and they're gonna say things that even people in Ice Spice's circle probably wouldn't feel comfortable to say, but you can see all of that.

Exactly. Some of that is, but once you're able to weed out the extremes, both from the haters and the people that are, you know, so unapologetic, they're blind to any type of, you know, constructive criticism that could support her career. There's good value that I think comes from that. The piece I want to talk about is the team that she has around her, because I read that same billboard article you wrote, and there are multiple entities that she's working with that have called her.

A global superstar and thinks that she is the next one that is on that way, whether it's capital records or 10 K projects or, her manager or even some of the others. What is the word? What does global superstar mean to you? 

[00:25:37] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I mean, I think that's definitely an interesting, interesting term. as someone who thinks about just how global the music industry has become, I think of global superstars as, The examples I would give are probably like a Bad Bunny or a Burna Boy.

in some ways, they're really able to command or pull tickets in, in any market. I mean, I got the opportunity to see Burna Boy in Paris recently, and I was like shocked, but not surprised in the sense that. Like he can do hard tickets anywhere. Bad Bunny seems to have that same effect.

Now, I do think that, and something I've just learned over time is it's a tricky designation because. The world knows a lot about the United States. the world knows a lot about New York when you think about how many shows or, you know, how many things are covered about New York, the world knows. So it's easy to feel like you have an understanding or an affinity to music about something that you know a lot about now, does it necessarily resonate the same way? I think of like the little baby in his documentary saying once he started traveling, he realized there were hoods all around the world. but I think that. there's obviously, definitely the potential to be, but I don't know if I could necessarily, say that just yet, because right now, to me, global Superstar feels defined a lot by touring.

[00:27:07] Dan Runcie: I do think that is a threshold there, that's something I look at and I know it's something that's fluid and I think I have a higher bar than a lot of people, at least from a peer numbers perspective. Granted, these things can fluctuate, but I wanna see someone that can at least headline an arena tour, at least.

Either on a nationwide perspective, at least in the US or can span beyond that. I wanna see someone that can at least sell 250K units. Yeah. At least in the US in their first week if they are a US, if they are, you know, side to a US-based record label. I think it can change elsewhere, but I wanna be able to see that. I also wanna be able to see some type of,

I also wanna be able to see some type of reach that spans beyond just those metrics as well. If you are able to ask someone that is outside of the circles of paying attention to this stuff, can they name you a few unique things or something identifiable like, oh, that's so-and-so with this. It doesn't need to be extreme as, does your mom know who so-and-so is?

But I wanna be able to at least yeah. See that and at least things from. Being able to create moments. Yeah. Of there's something that you do that does create moments there. The challenge that I think that definition and those terms can have, I know it could be a bit rigid, and even if I'm using those thresholds as well, there's maybe less than.

Maybe around 20 or so people in all of pop music, in popular music, not just like Pop is in genre, but like all of popular contemporary music right now, they're probably fitting in. Yeah, that category of what I just said in less than 10 in hip hop. If we're saying overall, because I do think these six Fletcher, you can come and go there, but I do think that.

That sometimes gets a bit missings because we do throw these terms around liberally. The thing is though, if you're a record label, you're in the business of trying to admit these people. Yeah. And for many of the reports that we've seen, it's becoming harder and harder. Yeah. To do that especially for a western-based English speaking artist.

Exactly. The market saturated, the names you just mentioned, it's no surprise that two of the more recent superstars that we've had at that level, Burna Boy and bad Bunny, are not primarily English speaking artists from the music that they put out and they emerge from different parts of the world that are not the United States or you know, the UK and Western Europe, right?

Yeah. Like those things are not coincidences. All those things fall in line. So it's one of these things where it makes sense if you're going to put the machine behind someone. Yeah, it does make sense to put it behind someone like Ice Spice because that's what you have. You wanna be able to put things out there.

And this is an industry driven by media and PR, so. Anything, even like that Ice Spice article that we saw on Billboard, very intentional just given the relationship that the major publications in music have with their major record labels themselves. So once you think about those things a bit deeply, It's great that someone like Ice Spice is getting that push to have everything behind her as well.

You just wanna make sure that we're not necessarily putting a carpet for the horse, or even putting expectations that may seem a bit too strong on someone that. We've even seen in the past couple months continuing to develop their career in a natural way. Someone that's 23 years old, she did one festival performance, got some mixed reviews from that, and then now she's on stage with the biggest arts in the world, and that's gonna continue to develop.

Like these things take time, but I just don't know if this era has the patience to be able to. Wait that out and see how these exist. 

[00:30:46] Denisha Kuhlor: I completely agree. And I also think, you know, like you said, the market is saturated and consumers have more access to music that maybe matches their local appetite, right? We've seen the rise of, drill music, obviously, you know, starting from Chicago to doing what it's done in New York to UK drill right. To Parisian or even, you know, French drill, right? So I think it, it makes it difficult because, as she continues to excel, right? There are people or artists that can also, hit the market and use certain elements of the framework, to reach maybe a small but core audience in a market, that she's not fully built, dominance yet. I mean, it's been a trend in, tech, whether it's replicating Airbnb for other markets or other companies. And so I think that it's definitely a hard feat right now because, People are very unapologetic before, and rap, right? Felt like there could only be one at a time, or this concept of first ladies, in rap groups.

Yeah. Especially for women. Exactly. And now you don't even, I mean, female rappers really, frankly, an outdated term. and, very much so. So you just think, oh, there's, you know, go's doing her thing. Lato, Cardi e everyone, the industry is thriving, but as a result, maybe the dominance of one has definitely decreased,

[00:32:06] Dan Runcie: And I think that fragmentation, the fact that there can be more than one, the fact that we see multiple people being able to succeed is good. It also makes me think of some of the critiques and some of the responses that we've seen from some of the releases, and I feel like we've seen this pattern. I've noticed it, I think we've talked about this as well, this pattern that frankly is rooted in sexism, where every couple of months there is a woman, there's a woman in hip hop that releases an album or a mixtape, or they announce a tour, something that has some, they do something that is further down their funnel in terms of either hard tickets or trying to get some hard album sales to put things out.

And the numbers may not necessarily be as high as people would think. Yeah. And this is a artist that would have at this point, Tens of millions of followers on all the social channels combined. They're often in the discussion. They have plenty of co-signs. They're assigned to some of the strongest record labels in the game, but then there's always someone that says, oh, well, how did so-and-so not even be able to sell 20,000 units in a week?

How does so-and-so not even be able to sell out this tour? Or they can't do this? It's frustrating in a lot of ways. But it's always women that we see this discourse happen with. It makes me think of a few things. I think there's a bit of a disconnect in terms of understanding what numbers mean. Yeah. And what they don't.

But there's also people just conflating followers with fans and not necessarily understanding that dynamic and how that dynamic is often different for women because of how the industry wants to portray certain people, what they're selling and what platforms sell and What you put on a platform can be very different for an artist just because that artist is a man and those things, I think it's frustrating to see, and I don't want that to happen too, Ice Spice, but we've seen it happen to so many of the names that you mentioned as well earlier.

Yeah. Is that just the way, is that just the dynamic? How do we Yeah. Break out? I, I think, and not that you have the answers too, but this is something I want. 

[00:34:13] Denisha Kuhlor: Very true. Very true. I think, you know, it's interesting, even in those names that I've mentioned, I think the only one, and she's embraced this dynamic really well, that's kind of been like, you know, I don't really know how I got here.

I don't feel like I'm supposed to be here. It's been like a gorilla and she's been, you know, very vocal about kind of maybe talking about some of the dynamics or pressures in the industry. I think it's, obviously a multifaceted approach, but what I will say is that, media and music sometimes can feel so combined.

And when you look at what the media wants to push out and how they, portray certain stories and what they choose to cover, right? When it comes to everything from interviews to, even cover stories of, of these artists, I think unfortunately, it puts some of these women or some of these artists in a tough position based off what they wanna focus on or how they're portrayed.

This sounds a little crazy, but I think, you know, the person who could probably, if they ever wanted a side project to maybe change some of that narrative is actually a Kris Jenner. I mean, we've seen what she's done with her daughters, but I think she's been very brilliant. I mean, I think to my knowledge, two of her daughters, you know, have done the Forbes cover, but I think she's been very thoughtful around shifting a specific type of narrative.

Whereas the attention could have been garnered from, you know, beauty and, societal expectations around beauty. Very much shifting that into the conversion of things that lead to real dollars, whether it's Kylie with her Lip Kits or Kim now with Skims who used Ice Spice, um, in an effort for relatability.

So, I unfortunately think that so early when an artist starts to blow, it's the team around you is calling a lot of the shots and getting things done. And it's hard to realize maybe until you see it for years, until years later, maybe how some of the small nuances in how you were portrayed or some of the opportunities you took, impacted your ability to, be taken seriously as a, decades long artist.

[00:36:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think part of the dynamic too, and this especially applies with women in hip hop, is that the teams around them and them themselves, some of their social posts or some of the things that they put out that they're selling sex. Yeah. They're doing the glam shots. Yeah. They're being out there.

which is good. They should feel empowered. They have a platform and so many people then feel empowered just seeing them be bold that themselves. The thing is though, because based on these platforms, the way they work and the algorithms, people are gonna follow you some or a portion of people are gonna follow you just because of that.

They are attracted, they're entertained. Yeah. And they wanna see that. And there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. But that's going to attract a certain number of followers in a way that Kendrick Lamar or J. Cole, who barely tweeted and have never been positioned as male sex symbols in that way, yeah. Aren't going to attract that.

So when you look at the, if there's a way to segment. Looking at Instagram, okay. Who follows you and why do they follow you? It's very different. Yeah. And that's why it's no surprise that the most followed art, the most followed hip hop artist on Instagram is Nicki Minaj, and it isn't even close. Yeah. And a lot of it is because of that and.

This is also someone in Nicki Minaj. If you then took that same look and you look at, okay, who are the artists that are selling the most, whether it's streams or it's albums, it's different. So I think sometimes people forget that, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I'm glad you brought up the Kris Jenner piece of this, because one of the things that she obviously has done well is finding, okay, based on the audience that we've cultivated, Where is that product market fit based on who they're reaching on Instagram, based on who they're reaching from this?

Exactly. And I think sometimes that's part of the challenge with a woman artist and specifically a woman artist in hip hop. If some of the posts may lean a bit more towards that, but it's one of those things where it shouldn't be that way because you should be able to post, you know, a sexy image and it isn't doing that.

But the concept that you put out, lines up with word people see, so there's always a bit of that challenge. There's always a bit of that dynamic there. And I see Ice Spice as well, someone that is attractive, someone that does have a lot of followers cuz people are bought into her look and. I don't want that to be the same necessarily.

[00:38:35] Denisha Kuhlor: You look at an artist like No name, who I love. I'm a huge no name fan. And she, you know, wraps with a soft spoken voice as well. and you know, I would argue no name fans wanna talk to her about books cuz she has a book club and, they, you know, so I think maybe the. The way you can also combat that is having like true pillars maybe of your personality or that you include as part of the narrative that aren't just visual.

Because if you teach people to be visual creatures or approach you visually, that is what they will see. That is what they will, that is what they will default to. And from an artist awareness perspective, you're getting the, visual part of artist awareness. But when it comes to the deeper part of, you know, the artist's story and what you represent, you're not capturing that as well.

And that's the difference between maybe a casual fan, a listener's turn casual fan cuz they follow you and they like you. They like your vibe to a truly engaged and deep-rooted fan. 

[00:39:34] Dan Runcie: This is something that I think a Cardi B also is able to do well, just I think back to during the 2020 presidential election and she's sitting down with Bernie Sanders.

Yeah. There was nothing related to music or related to, you know, selling sex or anything like that. She's been talking about her interest in that, or whether it's her interest in FDR or other things. There was something else there that I think had people brought in. I think which I think has always helped with her in that perspective.

Yeah. Another person I think I feel a bit bad for in this regard was Megan Stallion because I look at the rise and the narrative and the things that she was talking about pre-the Tory Lanez shooting. And so much of it, you heard so much more then about, you know, her own goals, graduating college Yeah.

And actually wanted to start the healthcare facilities. Yeah. And the hotties and, you know, driving the boat. all of the stuff that she was able to pull off there. And I think since then, not only was she much more selective about the media things that she did, yeah. Almost every media appearance that she's had, to some extent is addressing Yes.

Something related to the Tory Lanez' shooting. Yeah. And of course it's a very traumatic thing, but you just think about how impactful that was. Yeah. When everything was going in the direction that it was Yeah, yeah. For her career. So I look at that in just another case where granted, she's still doing quite well for herself from a career perspective, but things definitely changed after that. 

[00:41:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, Cardi B is a great one. and even, even me, I would say somewhere probably between casual fan or in that range, I can very much remember all the things Cardi B does, whether it's her love of civics and politics to, there was a tweet and she was talking about the rise of grocery prices and someone was like, why are you talking about this?

And she was like, I very much care about, you know, the day-to-day life of the average American because. I've done well, but I support families, I support my family, all of that. And then I thought it was brilliance. She either did, I don't wanna get it wrong. but did either eve near essence of black publication, and the family shoot, right? With Offset having a blended family, the challenges and, that they've went through there. And I think that, yeah, she's so brilliantly done that By just being herself. It does feel like the industry has like a one track or fixed mind, sometimes in that once this is what you are known for.

It feels hard to break away from that. And what's interesting is I do think in, Meg's case that the way she's navigating it now, whether it's just taking some time off, saying that she'll be back when she's ready, Gives her the space to maybe come back out with a bit of a reinvention.

and so I'm excited to see what that would look like. And in the way Beyonce came back out as Sasha Fierce, like what does it look like to, for hope for her to hopefully have that opportunity to reinvent herself back into whatever artist she wants to be. 

[00:42:31] Dan Runcie: And I think that's the key thing. There is so much that they still have going. All these artists are still young. I mean most of them are still under 30. Yeah. I actually forget how old Cardi B is, but I think she still is. There's still plenty of runway. There's still plenty of this. Cardi B still hasn't released another album since the debut album that she had. Meg, her others still haven't gone on tour, even Nikki hasn't gone on tour in a while. Yeah, and we haven't seen a true album come out from her since Queen, which was almost five years ago at this point. And we're still waiting for Ice Spices debut album. So excited to see where it comes. I think there's a lot of opportunity.

I think we talked about some of the challenges that are there and some of the headwinds, but before we close things out, any other thoughts on Ice Spice? 

[00:43:14] Denisha Kuhlor: Lastly, and to the point you've made. I think maybe some of it comes down to, intentions or even our desires. I think COVID, it really continued to be a hard look at the daily lives we live and what work-life balance looks like.

And as so many of us go through that as individuals and human beings, artists are going through that, artists are going through that as well. And Ice Spice this case, I think with some of the business and partner decisions she's made, signing a capital, having the distribution network that comes with, World Star and World Star's Media Network, it gives her the privilege to release a song and know that distribution is already built in and not maybe have to do those 50 radio stops.

 It gives her that sort of privilege and I think we're going to see a world with artists. And Cardi is interesting to that point too, where they might never tour. They can sustain a lifestyle that they want to live doing just enough. 

[00:44:14] Dan Runcie: Cardi is on that private tour gig. She's on that Lionel Richie ship. 

[00:44:17] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly, doing just enough. And I think that's really attractive. And so, you know, when you think about the attitudes that Gen Z brings towards the workplace. It's really interesting to see how, she will, you know, releasing a six song, six songs, right? For an initial body of an initial body of work before we used to 10 to 12.

[00:44:39] Dan Runcie: A multimillionaire giggle. 

[00:44:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Yeah. So it'll be interesting to see kind of what maybe what does the new era of a global superstar look like? Maybe it looks like a lot less tour dates and a lot less music, and a lot more brand partnerships and other streams of income. And, as a result, we'll get the artists, but in a way that makes it feel worth their while for a long time. 

[00:45:06] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And I think that's a good point to end on. So Ice Spice and team. If you're listening, we wish you all the best of luck with this and we'll be following, we'll be following along. Denisha pleasure as always.

[00:45:17] Denisha Kuhlor: Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:45:18] Dan Runcie Audio Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2754 no The Rise and Fall of Roc-A-Fella Records (with Zack O'Malley Greenburg) https://www.trapital.com/podcast This is the breakdown on Roc-A-Fella Records. Founded in 1995 by the trio of Shawn “Jay Z” Carter (the talent), Damon “Dame” Dash (the promoter), and Kareem “Biggs” Burke (the silent partner), it became one of hip-hop’s most iconic labels. The label took time to develop. Jay’s debut album, Reasonable Doubt, is now seen as a certified classic, but took time to get that recognition. It wasn’t until 1997 when Def Jam acquired a 50 percent stake in the label and The Roc went to that next level. Roc-A-Fella then created Rocawear, Roc Films, and went on an unprecedented arena tour across the country — rare for rappers at the time. Other artists like Cam’Ron, Kanye West, Beanie Sigel, and Freeway joined the squad..  Despite the success, the founders grew apart, which led to its infamous split. To break it all down, I was joined by my friend and Jay Z biographer, Zack O’Malley Greenburg. Here’s what we covered: 1:20 Roc-A-Fella origin story 7:21 Reasonable Doubt 09:43 Friendly rivalry with Bad Boy Records 12:43 50-50 deal with Def Jam 15:59 How Roc-A-Fella’s deal compared to others 18:59 The Hard Knock Life Tour’s impact  28:32 Expanding the brand beyond Jay Z  30:32 Why Dame and Jay’s split was inevitable 38:59 Artists taking sides 44:21 Best Roc-a-Fella signing? 45:22 Best business move? 48:27 Dark Horse move? 53:02 Missed opportunity?  59:07 Will Dame and Jay ever make up? 1:00:45 Who won the most from Roc-a-Fella?  Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog This episode is brought to you by Norby, your digital marketing Swiss army knife. Get started for free with a free 2-week trial (no credit card needed) AND get 50% off for 3 months after that. Start your free trial today This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Zack Greenburg: I think it was really good for hip hop, and I don't think it was ever going to turn violent, but I think again, there was just this kind of like national paranoia around hip hop and, there is, you know, in waves. I think it was just a, good reminder that you can have like a spirited dispute and, it's okay and it's entertainment, you know? and it's, nothing that anybody needs to be afraid of. So, you know, of course like credit to Jay and Nas for resolving it amicably, yeah, I mean just, to have that end, you know, like very amicably I think was just so good for everybody involved. And then, you know, I think it's really fun to watch, Jay and Nas as their relationship has evolved And, you know, Nas was sort of always like the one who was sort of behind, when it came to the business of things. [00:00:46] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:01:13] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: This episode is a rewind. We're going back in the clock to the late nineties, early two thousands, and we are revisiting one of. The most iconic record labels at the time, the one and only Roc-A-Fella Records. Roc-A-Fella Records, is the record label started by Jay-Z Dame Dash, Big Burke, and went on to be one of the most iconic hip hop record labels and hip hop brands, and that's a key thing from this conversation. I was joined by my friend Zach O'Malley Greenberg. He wrote Empire State of Mind, a biography on Jay-Z, and he also wrote Three Kings that broke down Jay-Z, Dr. Dre, and Diddy's Business Moves. So he was a perfect person to have this conversation with. We talked about the highs of this record label, the lows, some of the best business moves where Jay-Z and Dame didn't see eye to eye, some of the dark horse business moves that they made. What was the best signing from Roc-A-Fella Records? Missed opportunities and more. If you enjoy the episodes we did on Cash Money and Interscope, this one will be right up your alley and we already know what it is when we're talking about Jay, Dave, and Big. So let's dive into it. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:17] Dan Runcie: All right. We are back to do another breakdown on one of the most iconic record labels, the one and only Roc-A-Fella records, and I'm joined by someone who wrote the book on one of the most influential people behind this record label. Zack O'Malley Greenberg, welcome back, man. [00:02:33] Zack Greenburg: Thanks for having me on, Dan, as always. [00:02:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and with this one, I think it's good to start even before Roc-A-Fella records because this label was a long time coming and there were a number of things that Jay Dame and Biggs, the founders of this record label were involved before this. So set the stage. Where were we pre Roc-A-Fella launch. [00:02:55] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, so, you know, I think a lot of people forget, although Jay-Z is a billionaire now, a couple times over, back in the early nineties, he wasn't even sure that he could make it as a rapper full-time. So, you know, he'd appeared on a couple tracks with his mentor jazz. Oh, this great Golden Age rapper. He had popped up kind of here and there, but, you know, really he was finding that it was much more lucrative to be a hustler. And so he was increasingly making more and more trips outta town to New Jersey and Maryland and so forth doing his thing. And, you know, I think he really kind of saw music as a hobby at that point. so he, he did have, you know, a couple supporters, namely DJ Clark Kent, you know, one of these influential producers, at the time. And, you know, Clark Kent really believed in Jay when a lot of people did it. And so he kind of kept trying to convince him to give another shot, like he could do this as an actual profession, and finally convince him to sort of take this meeting with Damon Dash. So he thought that Jay-Z was this just like once in a generation talent, from the musical side, and that Dame was sort of this promotional mastermind. And then if the two forces kind of united, they could create something really special. So in my book, empire State of Mind, Clark Kent tells the story of how he convinced Jay and Dame to sort of meet up. And so Dame, of course is from Harlem, Jay's from Brooklyn. There's sort of like this New York City snobbery thing going on, you know, Manhattan folks kind of maybe look down sometimes on people from Brooklyn and so they get together and, Dame rolls in. He sees Jay's wearing a pair of Air Force 1s and he is like, okay, this guy's cool, you know, he has good taste in sneakers, so I, can do business with him. and that was kind of like, you know, the initial hurdle was, you know, overcome and off it went. And so they struck up this really productive partnership together where, you know, Dame would kind of, help Jay Z sell, you know, they would go around selling CDs outta the trunks of cars and stuff like that. they were trying to get a proper record deal. and they just didn't have, like, nobody was kinda like really into the whole jay thing at the time. And you know, if you think about the music that he was making, unreasonable Doubt, it's like very nuanced. you know, like a lot of words packed into not very many bars, you know, like the space and the rapidity of the, the flow was like kind of not what was happening at the time in the, you know, by this time like, getting toward the mid nineties. So, basically they decided to go and start their own, and they brought in green Bigs Burke, who was kind of a silent partner, you know, another formidable hustler in his own right. And, you know, so there was the, talent, the silent partner and, you know, the promotion guy. And you know, when their powers combined, they were Captain Planet or whatever they were Roc-A-Fella records. [00:05:42] Dan Runcie: And I think part of the thing with Jay-Z that made this unique was his age at this point as well, because by the time they start Roc-A-Fella, he's already in his mid twenties, which doesn't sound anything unusual now, but back then, the rappers that were blowing up were always teenagers. There were always early twenties. You think about Dr. Dre, everyone from NWA, you think about Nas when he dropped I Maddock or you look at LL Cool J. Everyone is a young cat. So for Jay to then drop his debut album when he is 26, Is an ancient man, a grandfather trying to get into this game? [00:06:19] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, it's like a 26 year old rookie in, you know, the NBA or in baseball or something. It's just like, you don't see it. I mean, al almost ever. And when it does happen, it's sort of like a journeyman, you know, like role player type but jay, you know, had just packed a lifetime worth of lyrics into this one album cuz he kind of viewed it as, you know, this was like a one and done, like a novelty thing. And, you know, he really fully anticipated, you know, kind of coming up from the underworld, dropping this gem of an album and then kind of like disappearing off into the ether, like Kaiser Souzai at the individual suspects. And that, I mean, that was actually his plan. you know, according to a lot of people who I talked to around the time. So, yeah, it was definitely not sort of the normal path, for creating an album. I mean, I think they thought that. You know, they could put out this album, it would do well and then, you know, maybe they would bring along other artists and he wouldn't have to be sort of at the forefront. Like he might just keep doing his thing on the hustling side or whatever. but obviously things turned out a little bit differently. [00:07:22] Dan Runcie: This album was also a bit of a slow burn from a success perspective. I know that many people now when they're debating the best Jay-Z albums, the best Roc-A-Fella albums. This one's always mentioned as well as a few others that we'll get into. But if you look at the commercial performance for this album, in the beginning, it was not that high. The same week that it came out, the Nutty Professor soundtrack sold more records than Reasonable Doubt. And around the same time, that summer, I'm pretty sure that Shaquille O'Neill's album, cuz he was putting out albums at the time, also sold more than Reasonable Doubt did. So extremely slow burn. And you mentioned something earlier about the hustle that I wanna tap into because this is one of the big value ads that Dame Dash had with this. He was relentless and we've all heard the stories. Many people that have met him have also seen what it's like upfront. A lot of it speaks to his success. But he was someone who was in many ways, notorious for going to the New York radio stations and giving them gifts, understanding, yes, this essentially is payola, but this is what everyone else is doing. This is what the people with the real money in the industry are doing. So he's leading into that as well. And you mentioned Kaiser Associates also makes me think about, there's one of the music videos that Jay had from in my Lifetime, volume one where, I forget which song it was, but the song essentially, you know, the music video essentially was a spoof, odd usual Suspects where he's impersonating the the Kevin Spacey, Kaiser Souzai character on it. Sorry for anyone that hasn't seen Usual Suspects for the spoilers I just dropped there. But there's so many things that I think tie in with that and just stay consistent with who he is at the time. [00:09:08] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I think that whole album, you know, the aesthetic was very like, maybe not Kaiser Soze, but, you know, sort of like gangster movie sort of thing and, you know, all the album artwork, you know, it's him and like a fedora and black and white and all that kind of thing. and so, you know, I think that, he's been obsessed with mafia movies for like, his entire life and you don't hear it quite as much, you know, as more recent albums. But he was kind of like living this underworld life at the time. And so I think it really resonated with him and maybe in a way that, that it, it doesn't quite resonate now. [00:09:44] Dan Runcie: And I think too that was in a lot of ways the theme that we saw he did in the nineties. You definitely saw Big Do It, especially in the whole life after death era, right before he passed. And I think there were a few moments that gave him the initial bump. Even after having Reasonable Doubt drop. Jay himself was featured on the Nutty Professor soundtrack because he had the song with, Foxy Brown that was also on his album. And then he's on Fox's album, album a little bit later. Her debut, he's also on, what's the song that Jay oh, David Brooklyn's finest, on Jay's album. [00:10:18] Zack Greenburg: Going back to Callie was on there. Oh my God, what an album. Yeah. But yeah, that was not, I would say Jay-Z got the better end of the collabs. with, the Brooklyn's Finest. I mean, that is a classic. Clark Kent produce that one also. And, you know, that was kind of like, that was another funny story from the book, like, you know, that there was also a bit of a friendly rival, mean, like they were, there were buds and all like, Jay and, and Big, but there was like a little bit of a friendly rivalry between, Jay and Dame and Puff and Big, because I think, you know, like, so the Whole Bad Boy thing was more established, by the time that Roc-A-Fella Records came about, and so I think Puff was kind of like Dame Dash, like another dude from Harlem, are you trying to be me? Kind of thing, you know, and so in order to make that song happen, I think before Jay and Big were friends, Clark kept kind of tricked them into recording the song together. So he was in the session with Big, and then he accidentally played a tape of a track that he had that was just an amazing track and Big was like, that's great. I wanna get on that. and he was like, no, I'm saving it for somebody else. And things like, well, who the hell else are you saving it for? And he is like, my man, Jay, you know, he's amazing. He's a beast. and big's like, I don't who, what Jay who. and so finally like Clark Kent sort of like goded him into, unbeknownst to big, Clark Kent had arranged for like Jay and Dame to be in a car downstairs. And he was like, oh, I think he's actually just coming in. And so he went down and he brought him up and so like Jay went in and recorded his verses, I think right then and there. And he left spaces for Big to put his verses in. and when Big went in and he listened to it, he was like, oh my God, this guy's so good. I have to like, go home and really think about this, about what I'm gonna put in there in the spaces that he left for me. and I think after that they were really good friends. but you know, it's, that kind of like, good nature trickery, shall we say. that, you know, I think some of these circumstances happen when you got some egos in the building and, you wanna make some magic. And, you know, as I recall, you know, for the chorus, Jay and Big had like become fast friends and, so like, they're leaving the studio and Clark's like, you know, on the final day that Biggie came and recorded or whatever, and Clark's like, what should I do for the chorus? And they're like, just scratch something. And that, that was how it happened. [00:12:44] Dan Runcie: Classic. And that's such a New York story, and it's also such a 90s hip hop story in terms of how the industry worked. Having someone like, oh, so-and-so's just downstairs, they're gonna come up right now because you have 'em, man, how people worked. Things classic. And it speaks to where Jay was at the time too, because as we mentioned, reasonable doubt, slow bird took a while for it to get. The respect that it deserves. But then you go to 1997, he has, in my lifetime, and that album also Slow Burn and wasn't necessarily as highly regarded as Reasonable Doubt, but still had some songs. And you could tell that Jay was trying to navigate a few things, whether it was he had the flashy suit ever himself when he had the song Always Be My Sunshine. He's feeling that out. I mentioned he had the Kaiser Souzai spoof music video, but it really isn't until 1998 where things start to change. So a few things happen here. The album Volume Two, Hard Knock Life comes out. That song, Hard Knock Life changes everything for the trajectory of that label, and that's when they start the partnership with Def Jam. So let's talk about the Def Jam piece first. Can you talk a little bit about that one and break it down? [00:13:57] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. So. As I recall, you know, in early Roc-A-Fella they had struck this, distribution deal. I think it was with priority. and you know, reasonable doubt was they had already been selling it on their own, sort of informally out of the trunks of cars. And then priority, you know, was distributing it. But it was kind of a disaster. They weren't paying Jay on time and, or maybe at all, at some point. And so he just kind of went back to 'em and was like, you know, if you're not gonna be paying me, or paying me everything, you're not paying me on time or whatever. Just like give my master's back and get me out of it. and somehow that's what happened. So that freed him up to be able to take this deal with Def Jam, where Def Jam bought a piece of Roc-A-Fella records. but again, you know, because they were buying a piece of it and not signing him to a deal. you know, he continued to own, you know, considerably higher portion of his own copyrights and, you know, possess more of the cash that came in than he would've otherwise. but you know, he already had the success. They already had this apparatus set up, so he had like, you know, he had leverage in a negotiation and I think, you know, even though his second album I think was kind of a dud and he would always, like, he has said in interviews that that's his worst album and the one that he'd like to have back. you know, he had some, heat, you know, with reasonable doubt. And then kind of like coming off the heels of Biggie's death and, being sort of like the heir parent. it was tight with Puffy who produced the second album, you know, for better or worse. But, you know, I think that really gave them sort of the ability to get what they wanted at a Def Jam, which was like, I think part of the reason that first album didn't do so well, and I think it was until fairly recently, his worst selling album, until sort of the back catalog began to catch up. But, what they needed was distribution those days was really important. Like you, you needed, you know, you could have Damon Dash, like Haranging, people at rec, you know, at radio stations all you want. But in order to really have the kind of, you know, national scale, that you need to be a superstar, at least in those days, really wanted to do with the label. So that's what they did, [00:15:59] Dan Runcie: Right, you needed someone that could get 500,000 units to 7,000 distribution points, and there were barriers to entry in order to do that. And yeah, to your point, I don't care how many bottles of champagne you try to give to Hot 97, that's not gonna make that happen without it, right? The thing that I always think about with this ever though, is the terms of this deal, because at least what we've seen publicly was that Def Jam had taken a 50% stake. In Roc-A-Fella records, and it was for one and a half million dollars. And that number always stuck out to me a bit because if you look at some of the other deals that had happened in that era, you had masterpieces distribution deal that he had done with the same priority records that Roc-A-Fella had their deal with. But Master P obviously had a much more favorable distribution deal with splits in his favor. And then similarly, that same year, 1998 Cash money, does their distribution deal with Republic Records? Of course, Def Jam is a different unit and Roc-A-Fella was in a very different place. And we know that Jay-Z had always talked about ownership and it was important to him. But it's a interesting reflection of just where things looked at in the landscape because it's easy to look back in Jay's career in hindsight and think that, oh yeah, his first album was a classic and then Hard Knock Life comes and everything is just up and up. But there was still. hierarchy and there were other artists that were getting more favorable deals, more ownership for their music, for their record labels. And Roc-A-Fella still got something that was somewhat favorable, but still not at the same level of some of those other people in the mid to late 90s. [00:17:40] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, that's a really interesting point, right? I mean, Jay obviously is this brilliant businessman and, you know, Damon and bigs aren't too shabby either. And yet it was a good deal, but it wasn't, anything like, a cash money or no limit in terms of the splits, and what they were doing. So, yeah, I mean, I think to your point, you know, those other acts, had kind of like a more established operation, you know, Jay was one guy with one album that didn't sell very well, that was kind of critically acclaimed, you know, so it was like A bit more of a risk perhaps, on Def Jams parts, they weren't really risking that much capital on them. So, you know, I mean, and I guess I wonder if that initial deal had been more favorable for Roc-A-Fella, if they had managed, to have, you know, the kind of splits that Cash Money and No Limit had might they have stayed in business together longer? You know, in a way it's like if the pie that you have or like if the one big pie, and, you know, if you're a slice of the pie that you're sharing with your two business partners is that much smaller than it is, than, you know, let's say the Williams brothers were sharing a cash money, you know, maybe you feel, a lot more restless and, inclined to go elsewhere, but we can get to that later. [00:18:59] Dan Runcie: that's a good point too, because if Cash Money is still in business. And we know cuz we recorded that episode not too long ago, but Birdman and Slim are still getting tens of millions of dollars per year. It's essentially a cash cow asset that they have. Def Jam is still collecting for Roc-A-Fella, as is universal. And I know that Jay and Damon Bigs do have their splits, but it's not the same because they eventually did sell the other half of the record label to the parent company Def Jam. I think it was Island Def Jam at the time that that deal happened. But it changes the dynamics a lot. But with the story though, we are getting to the point where Roc-A-Fella is clearly on the way up. And I think there were a few things coming that did set things up for them. But one thing that I think was a big difference maker for them around 1999 was them wanting to go on tour and. Have their name out there. So 1999 they have the Hard Knock Life tour and at this time it was pretty rare for, all Hip Hop Act to have a nationwide arena tour that happened because at the time they had past shows or whether it was at Run DMC shows or other things in the late 80s, early 90s, and cause of violence and because of things like that, all these promoters and all these venue operators were so scared of hip hop. So you had Smoking Grooves and other festivals like that in the mid nineties where they always had to pair you with the R&B actor. They had to have two folks together. I know that Bad Boy had its, arena tours as well, but they always had the R&B acts that were there, so they needed to, they were really trying to do something different. But I think this is where Dame's Magic came to life because he was able to really control the narrative and be out in front with how they were making sure that violence wouldn't happen, whether they had their own security on top of whoever was there. They had the fruit of Islam that was at each of these shows standing there to have the, bodyguards there as present. When the reporters came into the trailers to see what they were doing on tour, there's this iconic video of Tie Tie and he has videos up and this VHS tapes up of, oh, you think we're just watching gangster flicks? No, here we got Goodwill Hunting right here. We got Brave Part, we got as good as it gets. Like we're here watching videos like anyone else. And with that and even, I think they did something that was either, either donating money or something as well cause in Colorado, because they had a show right around the same time that the Columbine shooting had happened there. So there were a few things they'd done there. And I think that tour in a lot of ways helped. Not just the Roc-A-Fella crew, but all the other folks that were associated with them that came along like Red and meth and Ja Rule and others. But then after that, we then saw the Up and Smoke tour. We saw Rough Riders and Cash Money go on tour. And I think that tour in a lot of ways helped propel them into that next level to continue to have a lot of that success. [00:22:06] Zack Greenburg: Totally. And you know, and I think it wasn't necessarily reflected in the bottom line. I mean, I don't remember what the gross was, but, you know, 18 million I think. Yeah. Like Taylor Swift probably grossed that in one show at, [00:22:20] Dan Runcie: I think he made that in two of the three nights at, [00:22:23] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, definitely, definitely over a weekend in the Meadowlands, but yeah, she probably had definitely, let's say, definitely crushed it in her like little weekend did in the Meadowlands. But you know, and so obviously if you're grossing $18 million. You're probably only taking home, you know, 10 of that after cost, maybe like, probably more like, you know, I don't know, seven or eight. and then you're dividing that up amongst however many people. There were a lot of people on that tour for like a fair amount of tour days, so it did not work out to a lot of sort of take home pay per show, but it really kind of opened the door. I think in the aftermath of the death of Tupac, Biggie and like all of this, you know, sort of, like moral panic around hip hop and violence and all of the, you know, whatever Tipper Gore stuff, you know, that this was sort of like a reminder that like, yes, hip hop Acts can go on tour and it's gonna be fine. And like that, you know, that had been done in the past and, run DMC and what have you. But, you know, NWA had gone on tour and, you know, had a big national tour. So there were other examples before, but I think people were like, kind of freaked out about hip hop in the national zeitgeist at the time, and this kind of really helped to kind of reset things. And, you know, opened the door for other rappers, but, you know, for Jay-Z himself down the line, you know, I mean, he's been a really prolific touring act and I think he's always been really clever, about it because, he's like, even now, like he can sell out arenas, but, you know, he's not like, I don't know, he sort of can't necessarily do, he can't sell out stadiums by himself, that's for sure. And there was a time when he couldn't sell out arenas by himself. and there's probably a time when he couldn't sell Amphitheaters by himself, but he always goes around, he brings somebody with him and he's got a really good kind of, level of self-evaluation and he's like, you know, he doesn't let his hubris get in the way of like, I can sell out whatever, whatever. unless he knows he can, you know, he, he's very accurate in that assessment. And if he can't make it, then he just brings somebody with him. He brings Eminem with them. you know, he goes out with Beyonce for the stadium tour. So, you know, Justin Timberlake with him. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So in a way, I think that tour was kind of the beginning of that. And, you know, how he could, see some synergies by mixing and matching with other artists [00:24:35] Dan Runcie: And that tour too Hard Knock Life tour. He showed signs of that awareness there. There's this iconic clip when Jay-Z was on the shop a couple years ago and he's talking about the show. This was shortly after DMX had passed away and Jay-Z was going on tour in each of these nights after X and X's shows, you know, he's taken off his shirt, he's doing prayers at the end. So you have people that are laughing, you have people that are crying, then people that are screaming and then they come out and they're like, oh, now you go like pointed to Jay-Z. And I mean, one Jay's storytelling of that is good. When we post this episode, we'll definitely share this clip in there, but two, it showed this awareness that people have spoke about of, and it's also what you're saying, even if he may not have always been the central act and another running thing that people have said over the years, what year was Jay-Z, the top guy in hip hop? And I think that is a very debatable thing, but it's the longevity and that's the thing that speaks to it. And how he's been able to stay through that over the years. And because he was always that core piece, like we said, price is probably one of the reasons that they didn't get a no limit or a cash money type deal. It really was just him. I think there was that one R&B album that Rocefella hadn't released in 1997, but didn't really go anywhere with that artist. So things didn't really pick up until late nineties, early two thousands. And you start to see more of the artists on Roc La Familia, and they're really able to spread their wings in that way. [00:26:10] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, another thing to remember, at the time, you know, especially, I think it was 98, 99, that was when, you know, Def Jam. So I think Def Jam had already taken a pretty significant, institutional investor, but, they were selling the company or like maybe the remainder of the company or most of the remainder of the company. There's this really, really big deal happening. and I forget which sort of, European entertainment conglomerate was it Bertlesman or It was like, was, something that's since been reconstituted or, or whatever. But the, the deal was gonna happen and you know, the deal was gonna be for whatever multiple of revenue, that Roc-A-Fella had or not Roc-A-Fella, that Def Jam had produced in the prior year. And so for the, I think it was the calendar year of 1999. And so, Lyor and Russell just like leaned really hard on Jay and DMX and they were like, we need you to put out like two albums in 12 months because we're just gonna get a multiple of that. And I don't remember the exact advances that, that were given, but you know, I'm sure it was considerable. And so, you know, they were able to put out like each of them two really killer albums in the span of like about 12 months each. which is like kind of unheard of these days, right? I mean, Jay-Z goes, is like five years between albums now and, I think that was, volume two and volume three for Jay-Z. And I think for DMX, it's dark and. [00:27:38] Dan Runcie: Dark as hell and hot and then flesh and my flesh blood. And then, and those were like, like, and then there was X was the third. Oh, then there was X. [00:27:45] Zack Greenburg: That's right, that's right. So those were like, like two, like for each of them to [00:27:49] Dan Runcie: a year and a half spare albums. [00:27:51] Zack Greenburg: I mean, yeah, back to back, you know, man, like to have that much, sort of creative energy to do it so quickly, and to have it sell so well, I mean, it is quite a feat and you know, and they, personally enriched Russell and Lyor and Rick Rubin, like, I would say quite substantially cuz it just drove up that multiple. And, yeah, I think a lot of people kind of forget, how critical they were, you know, to that process. But it probably also caught thinking like, Why am I working so hard to make somebody else, you know, I'm getting rich, but they're getting wealthy and, I think the gears are continuing to turn for him at that point and he's like, Hmm, how do I kind of get to be more in their position, right? [00:28:32] Dan Runcie: Cuz I think at this time, this is when you start seeing more of the Roc-A-Fella expansions in a few ways. First Dame is already thinking about ways to extend this brand. You see Roc films, Streets is watching comes out in the late nineties and then they put out a whole documentary about the Hard Knock life tour as well. And they start selling that as the DVD Rocawear comes out. And we're gonna do a whole episode about Rocawear eventually, but, you know, Rocawear itself. And then you also just start to see more and more product coming from Roc-A-Fella that isn't necessarily from Jay himself. And I was looking back from a timeline. And this is one of the unfortunate things about Roc-A-Fella, we're gonna get to this, but right around the time they split, you could argue that they were just continuing to go up and up and up with the releases every year. Like this is the 12 month stretch that they had where I think they had the highest products. Starting in February 20th, 2003, you had freeway drops, Philadelphia Freeway, Dipset Drops, diplomatic immunity. Joels has his debut album. Jay-Z drops the Black album, Memphis Bleak drops his, and then top of 2004 Ye drops College Dropout, Young Guns drops their debut. And that's all in a 12 month span. That's some no limit cash, money level of dropping albums. And so there's so many hits and so many memorable songs that they had during that stretch. [00:29:59] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think that if, you know, we were talking earlier about the splits and so forth, but it's like, can you imagine. If they had the kind of splits to catch money it had, when you have all those albums coming out and, you know, yeah, I think it really would've changed things. Not only that, but you know, to own the masters of all those artists, which you probably would've in those days. you know, to have like a hundred percent or something close to it on all those artists with all those classics. you know, it would've been very hard to walk away from, you know, as they eventually ended up doing. [00:30:33] Dan Runcie: And I think what you mentioned earlier, probably alludes to this, right? Because if there's enough of the pie to these split between the three founders and everyone else, and they're the one accruing the assets from what they have, then maybe Jay and Dame are more likely to figure out their differences in a way to make things cook because it's working for everyone. But when you're still paying Def Jam in on top of that, or you're still paying island def jam in on top of that universal even more money, it's tough to justify that. And I think this is a good time to talk about the split. The infamous split between Jay-Z and Damon Dash. You could start to see that the two of them were going in different areas where Jay-Z was wanting to be really focused in on what he was doing from a music perspective, wanting to expand there and wanting to just do different creative things. But Dame had his own approach, and we talked a little bit about that with, the films and the sports and other things too. But he also wanted to do things his way. He was starting to get a little bit more spotlight. And then there's that infamous clip of them at Summer Jam 2001, where Dame Dash is in his full element. And Jay-Z's just like expressionless. And that clip is often looked at as like you knew from this moment. That these two just were necessarily gonna be at the same page because this is 2001, Jay-Z's are drop about to drop the blueprint, his masterpiece. And granted, you know, he could have just been in the zone or whatever, but it's definitely an unfortunate thing because granted, Jay-Z was able to reach further heights, but you never know what could have happened. You just look at how much Rocawear ended up selling for you. Look at the continued success, the momentum, and I think what it boils down to is to. People that had different philosophies where it makes it tough. Jay-Z was a bit more focused on wanting to be rich. He was willing to do partnerships with others if everyone could eat and have a piece of the pie. Granted, he still wanted ownership, but as you've written about before, he has his perceptions on underdog brands and how he could move like a private equity executive and make the right investments. And even the m and a deals he's continued to do today, his live nation deal is the element of this. But Dame was a bit more wanting to be king. He wanted to have his stamp on things. And I think you see that even now today with Dame Dash Studios, Dame Dash, this, like, it's very important for him to be able to have his kids and his other folks around him be able to work with him and be the boss, not necessarily wanting anyone to tell you what you can and can't do. And that infamous Breakfast Club interview that they had, I think it was 2015 when he's yelling at DJ Envy and Charlemagne about, well, they gotta report to whoever at Power 105 and that's their manager, that they're not a real boss, is an element of that whole dynamic. So it's frustrating that it happened, but it's also not surprising. [00:33:26] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Jay has kind of adjusted his views on ownership and he said recently, I mean, he's sold some of his big brands, or sold half of it into, a JV with like LVMH or you know, or whatever. And he's very much of the mind of like, well, I, you know, 50% of like a billion is a lot more than a hundred percent of, you know, a couple hundred million, and I think Dave, that's [00:33:51] Dan Runcie: that you did with Kevin Hart, right? [00:33:53] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly right. So, and I don't remember the exact quote, but maybe you could, maybe you guys can pull it up, but I don't think Dame really ever got that. He was always like, well, I want a hundred percent, you know, and so, you know, he ended up with a hundred percent of like, whatever, you know, seven or eight figure amount that he ended up with. But he could have had, you know, 50% or 30% or something of like billions of many billions probably. But you know, just to kind of like, I think there was a precipitating moment that sort of like was the end of, Roc-A-Fella a s it was, a partnership between the three of them. But it really could have been anything. it was headed that way for a couple of years. And, you know, I think what it comes down to, is that, I don't know. I mean, I think that Jay also recognized that Dame was very, very valuable. The skillset was especially valuable in the come up. And, you know, like when you are not well known, you need somebody to go in and yell at somebody at the radio station. you know, but then when you get there, you need somebody to like not yell at certain people, you know? And, when you get to that next level, and sort of Dame, you know, didn't adjust, To that. And, Damon was sort of Damon or wherever he was. And it was great in one situation, not great in another situation. So I think the precipitating incident was basically when, you know, after this sale, which ironically Roc-A-Fella helped, boost, you know, the Def Jam sale. There was a reshuffling of executives, which is like so complicated. I'd have to go back to that chapter of my book to, to look at it. But the gist of it was the role of president at Def Jam, opened up and, it was offered to Jay-Z. And so, you know, Jay-Z, this is something that he had sort of, it's this like great prestige job. something that he'd always been wanting. And I don't think he wanted it, like, this is my dream job that I've always wanted. As much as it was like, if I can do this, be a CEO, this opens the door to so many other things. And it will really sort of entrench me as not being pigeonholed as an artist. And, it was a no-brainer and of course there was no way to do this without, stepping on Dame's toes. So, you know, there's this whole great drama, and I think, you know, the wheels started turning when Jay-Z was, you know, on, on a yacht in the south of France with like Beyonce and Jimmy Iovine and Bono or something and, kicking it. And, you know, there's some executives there. Some conversations were had, I think at the same time back home, Dame, like elevated camera on to VP level at Roc-A-Fella without consulting Jay. And it was this kind of like big scandal and when Jay-Z came home, he was like, no. And he kind of demoted him. So there was some awkwardness there. but you know, I think then that Jay kinda like accelerated his, push toward this CEO role, and when he got it, it's like, all right, you know, sorry Dave, I'm your boss now. I mean, because of course Def Jam was, but Roc-A-Fella, there was really. There was no way for it not to be structured like that. so, you know, when that went down, of course, like Dame immediately, you know, quit or left or whatever, and, there was a hot minute where he started the Damon Dash Music group within Universal, but, you know, then he kind of like kept doing the same thing and kind of yelling at the wrong people. And, and so that didn't really go anywhere. And, you know, the thing kind of fizzled out and Jay offered to, I think he wanted to give, at the time, he wanted to give, Biggs and Dame, like all of his preexisting masters in exchange for exclusive ownership of Reasonable Doubt. they said no. but of course, you know, I don't know that the Black album had gotten as big, is it? You know, I hadn't like really fully blossomed into what it, what it ultimately was at that time. And there's like all this other, so anyway, I mean, there's a lot of like trades being offered and you know, people sort of like, you know, it's like the guy in your family in football league, your fantasy baseball league. You kinda like overvalue his own players. Think I've made this analogy before, but, dude, come on. Like, you know, you're running back, just got injured and offering you my extra running back for this wide receiver who you're not even music anyway. it didn't really work out. Everybody got all pissed on each other, you know, at the end there's bad blood. so th there's this great moment that Dame talks about how, shortly after all this went down and they're like in the elevator at, I guess the Universal Museum, that Def Jam was housed in. and Roc-A-Fella had been housed in or something. And they're like bumping each other in the elevator and Dame is wearing a state property shirt and Jay C's like in the suit. And Dame's like, man, you know, things are really different now. Like, dude, you changed, you know? so, you know, I don't know if Jay changed so much as like Dame didn't change, you know? you could argue the problem was that Jay changed, but you could also argue that problem is that, that Dame didn't. And, you know, I mean, to some extent like power to him, you know, be you. but Jay, you know, in the way that I think you know, he's constantly changing. He's restless, he's always, everything is a chessboard. He's always evolving, you know, I think ultimately there was no way to stay locked into a partnership with someone who wasn't kind of willing to change with them. [00:38:59] Dan Runcie: One thing you mentioned there made me think about how they think about things and where they are from a strategic perspective, Dame is very much your early stage startup guy. He's great for the pre-seed era. He's great for when you're even in the seed stage, maybe even series A, but once you get to that series B, C, you're starting to get some higher level executives. You're getting more talent, you're gone to bigger things. You can't operate the same way and no different. How those organizations often need to rotate and think about leadership. That's essentially what in many ways was the opportunity there at Roc-A-Fella. And there's nothing wrong with being very successful at that pre precede seed stage. I don't think Roc-A-Fella would've got to that point if it weren't for Dame hustling in many absolutely ways, whether it was on tour radio, and I think a lot of his success traits have been carried through and things we've seen celebrated and leaders in tech and people that do things that don't scale that very much is Dame Dash. That next level, though, is where things did get a little bit tough because the label's clearly getting ready to go to that next level, and they just had their tensions there. The thing that was unique though, about their tensions is that the artists themselves that were on Roc-A-Fellas started picking sides in terms of who they wanted to be with, who they were gonna side with, Jay versus Dame, and as you mentioned, Dame was the one that had elevated Cameron, who was the leader of Dipset at the time, to that VP level. That then brings everyone from dipset under his umbrella, but Ye, who had just dropped the college dropout and he was the one that was always trying to make it. He then signs with Jay, he also has a very memorable interview on the Breakfast Club where they asked him about this, and Ye was the one that was like, me and Dame we're the same. We think the same. This is how we act and go about things but I could learn more from Jay. He knows how to talk to people and he uses Jay's iconic lines. He's like, Jay knows how to move in a room full of vultures. That's just how he is and sometimes I be talking and saying the wrong things, which is a very ironic thing. I don't know if Kanye himself would admit that now, cuz that very much is a self-serving prophecy. I do think that there's a lot of truth in that, and just how things ended up shaking out for both of them. You saw the moves that everyone continued to make, and even though ye has definitely been quite polarizing in the public spotlight, a lot of the moves that he continued to make, whether it was with Yeezy or with the partnerships he's had, I do think stemmed from how he looked up to his own big brother in Jay. [00:41:42] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And he could have easily gone with Dame, right? I mean, you know, Jay wasn't so great to him early. Jay didn't believe in him as a rapper, he kind of wanted to keep him as a producer and Dame was, I think, the one who really advocated for Kanye as a rapper. but you know, I think Kanye, in his, you know, like more self-aware moments can say things like, oh, I think I could learn more from Jay. He brings something to table that I don't have, for Dame, I think the difference between Dame and Kanye is that they're very similar, in a lot of ways. But Dame isn't an artist. like, let's say a generationally talented artist. And so people will not put up with you if you're an executive. And you bring along those headaches in the way that they would put along, put up with you if you're a generational artist and you bring those headaches. And I think that was sort of like also, something that did Damon. And you know, in a way I think Damon Puff had a lot in common like they can just go in and kind of bulldoze their way into something. but Puff has that, that like other level where he can sort of like turn it up and down and, you know, to fit the situation. and is like more of a chameleon than Dame is. And Dame's just kind of dame all the time. so, you know, those are sort of the, personalized to play. But you know, like one person who gets lost in the shuffle here is Cameron. And because that was sort of the prime of his career that got like, entangled in this sort of higher level beef. but you know, you think about that album, come home with me and Hey man, like, I mean, Cam was really on fire, going into this whole situation. And then he got kind of like, I don't say like exactly lost in the shuffle, but almost lost in the shuffle. You know? and you just kind of wonder how his career would've gone, you know, let's say if, sort of he hadn't been like Dame's guy, you know, if what if he had gone to Def Jam? You know, what would that have looked like? could he have been on the level of somebody who signed? You know, like, I don't know. I mean, around that time, I think, Rick Ross signed a Def Jam, was it? [00:43:41] Dan Runcie: Ross, Jeezy, yeah. [00:43:43] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, like, you know, I think certainly has, you know, comparable ability, Tyler and those guys and, you know, I think both of them went on to have, You know, sort of like more longevity. but like, you know, I think, some of the Dipset classics and some of the solo stuff too, I mean, it's pretty unbeatable. So, you know, I just wonder, he's had a really good career, either way. But like, you know, I don't know that he ever like, broke through that next level, consistently, you know, to the point where he could just kind of stay there indefinitely. And, I wonder if he might have, if things had kind of gone differently in the Jay-Dame scenario, [00:44:21] Dan Runcie: The man had men wearing pink. He started his own fashion. Yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah, that's true. Unbelievable. With that, I think it's a good chance to hit through some of these categories, cuz I think you're jogging my memory the few things here. what do you think is the best signing that happened under Roc-A-Fella? [00:44:39] Zack Greenburg: Well, I guess you can't count Jay if he, you know, co-founded Right Label. But, you know, I'd say probably Kanye. it's hard to top that. And when, you know, when you think about those first few albums, you know, I mean, he brought an element into hip hop, into the mainstream that just wasn't there. and, you know, I don't think, you know, if you hadn't had Kanye, in the pink polo, and you know, talking about his feelings, like, I don't know if you get Drake right. I think that he kind of changed the discourse. he brought hiphop to the mainstream and then he also like brought a different sort of voice to hiphop, And it was fantastically lucrative, obviously, for everybody involved. So, yeah, I agree with Kanye, for sure. [00:45:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah, agreed. And then just given the longevity there, even into the early 2010s, still putting out records under the Roc-A-Fella Records umbrella that still went back to them. And longevity that lasted longer than most of the people that were assigned to that label. So I think it has to be him. Best Business Move made, I know we talked about a few of them, but what do you think is the best business move that to come from the Roc-A-Fella era? [00:45:47] Zack Greenburg: Hmm. I mean, it's funny now that we look at it, I mean, in a way, know, the deal itself that set up Roc-A-Fella was not, you know, it wasn't a bad deal, but it was not the best, move. It wasn't the best kind of financial arrangement. you know, I mean, Rocawear is kind of an offshoot. Maybe that's cheating, but I'm gonna go with Rocawear because I think in some ways they're like, well, we can't get a hundred percent of the money on this thing, so we're gonna create an adjacent brand that's like very clearly associated with it that we can really monetize fully. And you know, I mean they got paid, I mean that, that company was doing hundreds of millions in revenue and they sold it for hundreds of millions. So, you know, I think they made more off of Roca wear, than they ever made off of Roc-A-Fella. So I'll go with Rocawear, we can talk more about it when we do the full Roca too. [00:46:36] Dan Runcie: I know. Yeah. I'd Rocawear as well. I won't go into the company itself cuz Yeah. We'll get into that in the next one. But I do think the good thing about that was it was a precursor to how artists now are thinking about their own revenue, their own business models, right? How they're using streaming, how they're using anything else that gives them a platform. Use that to grow your audience, use that to grow the awareness while generating money for that, establish the base. So some of those other business units were likely more influential, thinking about them doing the deals with Def Jam and then them having the hard knock life tour. But I do think Rocawear was the best business thing to come through there for sure. [00:47:18] Zack Greenburg: And just a s like a subset of that. I think the philosophy that was embodied by Roca wear, you know, the idea of like, they wanted to go Roca wear started because they wanted to go. there, there was this Italian, knitwear brand. iceberg. And they like went to the iceberg offices and said, Hey, can you give us some free t-shirts or something for wrapping about your thing? And they're like, or no, I think they wanted an endorsement deal. They wanted some cash for an endorsement. and then the executives were like, we'll give you some free t-shirts. And, Dave was like, this is stupid. Let's go start our own thing. So, but I think that was really the beginning of, you know, like, I'm not gonna give, free publicity to other brands. I'm just gonna go start my own thing and rap about it. Like other rappers have done it. But, it became so pervasive for Jay-Z's mindset. It wasn't just like, I'm gonna do my own clothing line and I'm sorry, I'm gonna do my own champagne. I'm gonna do my own cognac. I'm gonna try to do my own car. I'm gonna try to do like a freaking video game, you know, he was involved in so many things that kind of sprung from that. so I think the implications were much broader than just, the clothing aspect. [00:48:28] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Next one here is the dark horse business move. So one that we actually haven't talked about, but I do think is one that Roc-A-Fella definitely lead into was the Jay-Z and Nas beef. The controversy that this was able to stem and start, I briefly mentioned Summer Jam 2001, but everything from then and just the drama from there, the two of them back and forth, Jay drop in takeover that, NAS drop in Ether, that whole back and forth was able to then create so much interest. They had all those beef DVDs that were g blowing up in the two thousands, I think largely came up cause of how they were able to reignite beef from essentially the biggest beef that hip hop had seen since Biggie and Tupac several years earlier. Yeah, it was huge and the level of. Bars that I think we're able to get the songs they're able to get back and forth. Just the impressiveness of Nas essentially taking on this whole entire unit by himself. People can debate whether or not who won and lost, whether you're looking specifically from a battle perspective versus who won in the long term. But we eventually see them come together on American gangster and they continue this f familiar relationship ever since. But I do think that this was the height of the time to really sell controversy. Obviously we saw 50 cent and others continue to do that too, you know, their own, putting their own flavor on as well. But I do think that Jay-Z and Nas Beef still was one of the little crown jewels that they had with this. [00:50:05] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And, you could tell that it was like there was real enmity there. but also, you know, the fact that it, it never turned violent, I think was just. I think it was really good for hip hop, and I don't think it was ever going to turn violent, but I think again, there was just this kind of like national paranoia around hip hop and, there is, you know, in waves. I think it was just a, good reminder that you can have like a spirited dispute and, it's okay and it's entertainment, you know? and it's, nothing that anybody needs to be afraid of. So, you know, of course like credit to Jay and Nas for resolving it amicably, but man, you know, like just being in New York and that time and like the Barbs going back and forth and man, I think that's the only time that, like a beef has gotten so nasty that, a rapper's mother has like, made him basically apologized for saying something mean, which, I think that was Jay-Z's response to Ether. I think Ether was sort of like the pinnacle of it and Jay-Z's response to it was like, not quite as good, like, how do you top ether? but I think Jay-Z's was just like, viscerally, like, you know, won't get too deep into it because if, Jay-Z had to like, call in to apologize for it, you know, I dunno if we can even talk about it on a podcast. But yeah, I mean just, to have that end, you know, like very amicably I think was just so good for everybody involved. And then, you know, I think it's really fun to watch, Jay and Nas as their relationship has evolved. And, you know, Nas was sort of always like the one who was sort of behind, when it came to the business of things. and then, you know, like he really was music first all the time. And, you know, I think some people thought that he would never really kind of blossom as a businessman, but then, you know, he became sort of the leader, within hip hop entering the venture capital world and, you know, created this great, Queensbridge Venture partners and, you know, invested early and just about every startup you can name and has had all kinds of fantastic exits. And, you know, I think it's so funny that Jay-Z then started MVP, you know, Marcy. So it, it's like definitely like a nod to Nas, you know, each of them naming their venture fund after the project where they grew up. So, I think that's super cool. And, you know, they still like drop these little subliminal, I don't know, like references, where you could tell they're kind of like tweaking each other, just like. You know, like sibling rivalry kind of thing. which is I think, really fun to watch. And, you know, I think that there's some friendly competition around deals and so forth these days. But it's just, it's so fascinating to like, watch the evolution from this real knockdown, drag out, very personal beef, that occurred, you know, to now like, sort of like comparing deal flow. And I think it speaks very positively toward like, the evolution of the business of hip hop. [00:53:03] Dan Runcie: Definitely. You think about things that they wrapped about in their most recent, songs that have been popular, right? Like Nas's song where he calls himself Cryptocurrency Scarface, or Yeah, yeah. Jay-Z. what was that line in God did with Khali where he is like, oh, we had cap tables, not that cap table, or something like that. I mean, he's clearly leading into that stuff. What do you think is the missed opportunity if of any, from Roc-A-Fella besides the split, cause I know we've talked about that, but there any other missed opportunities, especially from that 96 to 03, 04 range? [00:53:37] Zack Greenburg: I think it's Armadale Armadale, like, and you know, that kind of came to be, I think of anybody that was more Biggs's pet project, than Jay or Dame. Although, you know, Jay was kind of trying to make it happen. He would, he had it. If you recalled the MTV Unplugged album, which as actually might be my favorite Jay-Z album of all time. It's kind of cheating cause it's not a studio album, but, it's so good. He's backed up by the race anyway. He's like, some point he's like, I need to stop for some Armadale. I need an army break, you know, he was really trying to shout it out everywhere he could. But already when they started doing that, you know, they were on the outs I think. And, I think Jay-Z wasn't fully invested in it because why would he get fully invested in it? And then another thing that he was partners with Bigs and Damon, I don't think anything against Bigs, obviously. And I think they're totally cool now. And they've, been doing some stuff together more recently. but like, why would he go do that when he could just wait and then do something on his own? But, you know, I mean, Armadale could have been cRoc, right? if they'd done it right, there's no reason that it couldn't have been. I mean, it's the same formula. It's like European unknown, whatever. And then, you know, put it in videos, put it in songs, and, you make it, you know, whatever it's gonna be. And you know, we've seen what Jay has done with Deuce and Armando Biac, so we know he can do it. It's not only Puff who can do it, only a few people who can do it. Levelly can do it, but like Jay and Puff can do it and done it. And Jay could have done it with Armadale, just, you know, At the timing just didn't quite work out. [00:55:03] Dan Runcie: I think Armadale had one memorable shout out from the Jay-Z song. It was, excuse me, miss, right where he is talking about Armadale popping off. but that's also the same song. I think he gave Cristal a pretty big shout out there where he is like, it's not Cristal, it's Cristal, right? But then a couple years later, he is like, no like obviously we're done with Cristal because of, you know, comments, racist comments that the founder or the CEO had said at the time, my missed opportunity is one that highlights something that I think Jay-Z did well, but it probably could have done more of. And that's movie soundtracks. If you ask certain Jay-Z fans, I do think that they have American gangster as one of their top Jay-Z albums, as they should. It's a great album. I honestly think the album's probably even better than that movie is in particular points. But Jay-Z, so that movie, that soundtrack comes out 2007. He missed, I think an entire wave of times when movie soundtracks, in my opinion, were even, were just bigger deals than they are by even 2007 and even later on. And now I think it's very hit or miss that you could even get a soundtrack to that level. But especially during the Roc era. And I know that he had songs that were popular on the, but really being the mc behind an entire soundtrack in that type of way, I think could have been there probably could have been more opportunities to do something like that earlier on. [00:56:26] Zack Greenburg: Oh, I like that's a really deep cut. [00:56:28] Dan Runcie: So a few more things here on Roc-A-Fella, Well, we've seen just continued spats back and forth. Not necessarily jabs, but just comments back and forth between Jay and Dame. It's been nearly 20 years since this split. We've definitely seen more from Dame than Jay, and it's one of those things where it does become a bit sad to see and frustrating to see at times and not be expecting to be best of friends. We have seen Jay-Z say things that are quite complimentary. When he got inducted into the Roc and Roll Hall of Fame, he did shout out both him and Biggs and say, Hey, this wouldn't have happened without either of you, regardless of what had happened, you know, in our past. Gotta give you guys both shouts for that. But then we've also seen Dame say things during the years, and I think he's. Alternated on whether or not he's wanted to speak on them and stuff. But it's one of these things that is a bit frustrating to see because I think about it when I think about NBA players and how they've had issues over the years. Kobe and Shaq, of course, infamously, they continue to talk about each other for years and then eventually they came and they had that sit down chat on TBS, right? Where they're talking back and forth. If they and Dame ever did something like that, they don't even have to go do it on some platform. They could do it on their own thing. It would be box office. It would be great to be able to see that and just see how, then hear them talk things out. Because even another NBA thing, Kevin Garnet and Ray Allen of course said, had their infamous dispute because Ray Allen went to go join the Miami Heat. Kevin Garnet, very intense, hated that that was their rival. But then after Ray Allen had walked past him at the 75th anniversary thing last year, that's when KG was like, okay, what if Ray Allen passes the same way, passes away the same way that Kobe Bryant did? I would, yeah, be very upset with myself if that ever happened. So it's like, Hey, you guys are both in your 50s now. You never know what can happen. We're seeing a lot of artists and a lot of entertainers that we love that are around the same age as Jay and Dame have unfortunate health scares. If there's a way that, not even that it needs to be public just for our consumption, but if there's a way to see them ever rekindle things at that perspective, that would be nice to see, at least in a public way. [00:58:44] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, I think it'd be great. I just don't know. I just don't know that it would happen, you know? I mean, I think that Jay has so fully moved on. I just don't know if, he would do it. and I think just sort of like the nature of Dame, is to sort of like want the spotlight and I think James just kind of like wouldn't want to deal with that, you know? I think Dame would want to come into it with sort of like equal billing and it kind of goes back to a strategy that Jay has had, throughout his career, which is like, you know, I think he learned this when he had the lion. I'm about a dollar, what the fuck is 50 cent? And that was like when nobody knew 50 cent was, and it kind of catapulted him into the conversation even though within hip hop Dash is obviously. You know, really well known and, let's say highly respected by some, maybe infamous to others, but, you know, he's definitely a known quantity. I think in the national conversation, Damon Dash is not known. And I think that now that Jay-Z is in this sort of international phase of his, you know, of his career, like that same philosophy might apply. Like, I don't want to sort of like give free publicity to somebody, you know, for no reason. So, you know, I don't know. I mean, maybe if you were in some kind of legacy burnishing mode and like, you know, mending fences or something like that, but it might have to come down to some kind of like, somebody has a health issue situation, you know, for it to really like resolve it in that way. And I just don't know, like again, in terms of it being, you know, like box office, I mean, it would be great versus, you know, yeah. but I don't know that people would tune in for like a Jay-Dame special or something like that. And I don't know that Jay, that's what Jay would want for his brand. I think, you know, Jay-Z wants to be like Jay and Bill Gates do a one-on-one sit down. Like he, I don't think he wants to like, go back to that period of his life. [01:00:46] Dan Runcie: I think that's fair because I think that's a good clarification because it would almost be like, it, maybe it would be less like the Kobe and Shaq thing would almost be more like Jordan and Pippen, where like Pippen is the one that's saying like, wild shit about Michael Jordan. Yes. And Michael Jordan's like, I'm in rooms right now considering selling my stake in the Charlotte Hornets for Yeah. Hundreds of millions of dollars right now, maybe even billions at this point. Yeah. So I think to your point, it likely is something that would mean a lot to people within hip hop, but not necessarily at this level where, you know, it's not like both of these people were clearly at doing the same thing. They were complimentary, but one was the artist. And the artist is always gonna have a bit of that poll there. So, yeah. And I guess we close things out, as we do with these case study breakdown episodes, we always break down who won the most from this record label in this era. Jay-Z's the obvious answer, but if we were to take Jay-Z out of the equation, who do we think is the person that won most from Roc-A-Fella records? [01:01:50] Zack Greenburg: Well, I mean, you know, I would almost argue that Dame was the big winner, over Jay, because Jay has gone on to do all these other things. And granted, like if he hadn't gotten to start and Dame hadn't been sort of like the early stage VC for him, You know, would he have, finally made it? I kind of think he eventually would've made it anyway. and I think that, you know, the Roc-A-Fella years were the peak of Dame's career. and, you know, he will always be, known in some circles and, you know, and revered in some circles for his role there. you know, in a way that every, you know, I'd say nothing he's done since, has sort of done for him if that makes any sense. [01:02:35] Dan Runcie: I get that. I followed that logic. My answer is Kanye and I think we talked about this a little bit, but I just. Because I think the core piece of the question is, where would this person have been without Roc-A-Fella records, right? I feel like Jay, or I feel like Dame probably would've found someone, probably even another artist in Harlem to attach his way to, I don't think there was anything stopping him in the late nineties era for doing what he eventually did.  He could have teamed up with Irv Gotti and done it with Murder Inc. I think he could have like, done it with a few of these other groups potentially. But would ye have been in the same situation if it weren't for Roc-A-Fella? I think he clearly is talented, but I think he needed a little bit more of the stars aligning in the right way for him to have had the career path. Interesting. [01:03:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think, you know, specifically what he was selling, you know, nobody was buying at the time, right? Like and it took someone with street cred. someone like Dame, someone like Jay to take a chance on him and elevate him and sort of into the national conversation that then, you know, allowed there to be sort of more demand for it, and, for people to really get invested in it. So, yeah, I mean, I think kind of would've figured something out, but, you know, I really do wonder, I mean, he might've just gone a totally different group, you know, like he might've just been, like unknown in hiphop circles, but gone and done something totally different in, you know, in fashion circles and maybe become known, in hiphop circles, only in the way that somebody like Virgil Ablo became known. [01:04:02] Dan Runcie: Right. Or almost like a Jane d or someone like that. Mm-hmm. You have to be in it, and then you're like, do you hear the brilliance of the music that this person produced? [01:04:09] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a really good point. So it could have been a very different path for him too. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. It's a good one. [01:04:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Well, I know we could talk for another hour about Roc-A-Fella itself [01:05:14] Zack Greenburg: All right. Very good. Thanks again, Dan. [01:05:16] Dan Runcie: You too, Zach. Thanks, man. [01:05:17] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 02 Jun 2023 09:00:00 -0000 The Rise and Fall of Roc-A-Fella Records (with Zack O'Malley Greenburg) full Dan Runcie This is the breakdown on Roc-A-Fella Records. Founded in 1995 by the trio of Shawn “Jay Z” Carter (the talent), Damon “Dame” Dash (the promoter), and Kareem “Biggs” Burke (the silent partner), it became one of hip-hop’s most iconic labels. The label took time to develop. Jay’s debut album, Reasonable Doubt, is now seen as a certified classic, but took time to get that recognition. It wasn’t until 1997 when Def Jam acquired a 50 percent stake in the label and The Roc went to that next level. Roc-A-Fella then created Rocawear, Roc Films, and went on an unprecedented arena tour across the country — rare for rappers at the time. Other artists like Cam’Ron, Kanye West, Beanie Sigel, and Freeway joined the squad..  Despite the success, the founders grew apart, which led to its infamous split. To break it all down, I was joined by my friend and Jay Z biographer, Zack O’Malley Greenburg. Here’s what we covered: 1:20 Roc-A-Fella origin story 7:21 Reasonable Doubt 09:43 Friendly rivalry with Bad Boy Records 12:43 50-50 deal with Def Jam 15:59 How Roc-A-Fella’s deal compared to others 18:59 The Hard Knock Life Tour’s impact  28:32 Expanding the brand beyond Jay Z  30:32 Why Dame and Jay’s split was inevitable 38:59 Artists taking sides 44:21 Best Roc-a-Fella signing? 45:22 Best business move? 48:27 Dark Horse move? 53:02 Missed opportunity?  59:07 Will Dame and Jay ever make up? 1:00:45 Who won the most from Roc-a-Fella?  Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog This episode is brought to you by Norby, your digital marketing Swiss army knife. Get started for free with a free 2-week trial (no credit card needed) AND get 50% off for 3 months after that. Start your free trial today This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Zack Greenburg: I think it was really good for hip hop, and I don't think it was ever going to turn violent, but I think again, there was just this kind of like national paranoia around hip hop and, there is, you know, in waves. I think it was just a, good reminder that you can have like a spirited dispute and, it's okay and it's entertainment, you know? and it's, nothing that anybody needs to be afraid of. So, you know, of course like credit to Jay and Nas for resolving it amicably, yeah, I mean just, to have that end, you know, like very amicably I think was just so good for everybody involved. And then, you know, I think it's really fun to watch, Jay and Nas as their relationship has evolved And, you know, Nas was sort of always like the one who was sort of behind, when it came to the business of things. [00:00:46] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:01:13] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: This episode is a rewind. We're going back in the clock to the late nineties, early two thousands, and we are revisiting one of. The most iconic record labels at the time, the one and only Roc-A-Fella Records. Roc-A-Fella Records, is the record label started by Jay-Z Dame Dash, Big Burke, and went on to be one of the most iconic hip hop record labels and hip hop brands, and that's a key thing from this conversation. I was joined by my friend Zach O'Malley Greenberg. He wrote Empire State of Mind, a biography on Jay-Z, and he also wrote Three Kings that broke down Jay-Z, Dr. Dre, and Diddy's Business Moves. So he was a perfect person to have this conversation with. We talked about the highs of this record label, the lows, some of the best business moves where Jay-Z and Dame didn't see eye to eye, some of the dark horse business moves that they made. What was the best signing from Roc-A-Fella Records? Missed opportunities and more. If you enjoy the episodes we did on Cash Money and Interscope, this one will be right up your alley and we already know what it is when we're talking about Jay, Dave, and Big. So let's dive into it. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:17] Dan Runcie: All right. We are back to do another breakdown on one of the most iconic record labels, the one and only Roc-A-Fella records, and I'm joined by someone who wrote the book on one of the most influential people behind this record label. Zack O'Malley Greenberg, welcome back, man. [00:02:33] Zack Greenburg: Thanks for having me on, Dan, as always. [00:02:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and with this one, I think it's good to start even before Roc-A-Fella records because this label was a long time coming and there were a number of things that Jay Dame and Biggs, the founders of this record label were involved before this. So set the stage. Where were we pre Roc-A-Fella launch. [00:02:55] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, so, you know, I think a lot of people forget, although Jay-Z is a billionaire now, a couple times over, back in the early nineties, he wasn't even sure that he could make it as a rapper full-time. So, you know, he'd appeared on a couple tracks with his mentor jazz. Oh, this great Golden Age rapper. He had popped up kind of here and there, but, you know, really he was finding that it was much more lucrative to be a hustler. And so he was increasingly making more and more trips outta town to New Jersey and Maryland and so forth doing his thing. And, you know, I think he really kind of saw music as a hobby at that point. so he, he did have, you know, a couple supporters, namely DJ Clark Kent, you know, one of these influential producers, at the time. And, you know, Clark Kent really believed in Jay when a lot of people did it. And so he kind of kept trying to convince him to give another shot, like he could do this as an actual profession, and finally convince him to sort of take this meeting with Damon Dash. So he thought that Jay-Z was this just like once in a generation talent, from the musical side, and that Dame was sort of this promotional mastermind. And then if the two forces kind of united, they could create something really special. So in my book, empire State of Mind, Clark Kent tells the story of how he convinced Jay and Dame to sort of meet up. And so Dame, of course is from Harlem, Jay's from Brooklyn. There's sort of like this New York City snobbery thing going on, you know, Manhattan folks kind of maybe look down sometimes on people from Brooklyn and so they get together and, Dame rolls in. He sees Jay's wearing a pair of Air Force 1s and he is like, okay, this guy's cool, you know, he has good taste in sneakers, so I, can do business with him. and that was kind of like, you know, the initial hurdle was, you know, overcome and off it went. And so they struck up this really productive partnership together where, you know, Dame would kind of, help Jay Z sell, you know, they would go around selling CDs outta the trunks of cars and stuff like that. they were trying to get a proper record deal. and they just didn't have, like, nobody was kinda like really into the whole jay thing at the time. And you know, if you think about the music that he was making, unreasonable Doubt, it's like very nuanced. you know, like a lot of words packed into not very many bars, you know, like the space and the rapidity of the, the flow was like kind of not what was happening at the time in the, you know, by this time like, getting toward the mid nineties. So, basically they decided to go and start their own, and they brought in green Bigs Burke, who was kind of a silent partner, you know, another formidable hustler in his own right. And, you know, so there was the, talent, the silent partner and, you know, the promotion guy. And you know, when their powers combined, they were Captain Planet or whatever they were Roc-A-Fella records. [00:05:42] Dan Runcie: And I think part of the thing with Jay-Z that made this unique was his age at this point as well, because by the time they start Roc-A-Fella, he's already in his mid twenties, which doesn't sound anything unusual now, but back then, the rappers that were blowing up were always teenagers. There were always early twenties. You think about Dr. Dre, everyone from NWA, you think about Nas when he dropped I Maddock or you look at LL Cool J. Everyone is a young cat. So for Jay to then drop his debut album when he is 26, Is an ancient man, a grandfather trying to get into this game? [00:06:19] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, it's like a 26 year old rookie in, you know, the NBA or in baseball or something. It's just like, you don't see it. I mean, al almost ever. And when it does happen, it's sort of like a journeyman, you know, like role player type but jay, you know, had just packed a lifetime worth of lyrics into this one album cuz he kind of viewed it as, you know, this was like a one and done, like a novelty thing. And, you know, he really fully anticipated, you know, kind of coming up from the underworld, dropping this gem of an album and then kind of like disappearing off into the ether, like Kaiser Souzai at the individual suspects. And that, I mean, that was actually his plan. you know, according to a lot of people who I talked to around the time. So, yeah, it was definitely not sort of the normal path, for creating an album. I mean, I think they thought that. You know, they could put out this album, it would do well and then, you know, maybe they would bring along other artists and he wouldn't have to be sort of at the forefront. Like he might just keep doing his thing on the hustling side or whatever. but obviously things turned out a little bit differently. [00:07:22] Dan Runcie: This album was also a bit of a slow burn from a success perspective. I know that many people now when they're debating the best Jay-Z albums, the best Roc-A-Fella albums. This one's always mentioned as well as a few others that we'll get into. But if you look at the commercial performance for this album, in the beginning, it was not that high. The same week that it came out, the Nutty Professor soundtrack sold more records than Reasonable Doubt. And around the same time, that summer, I'm pretty sure that Shaquille O'Neill's album, cuz he was putting out albums at the time, also sold more than Reasonable Doubt did. So extremely slow burn. And you mentioned something earlier about the hustle that I wanna tap into because this is one of the big value ads that Dame Dash had with this. He was relentless and we've all heard the stories. Many people that have met him have also seen what it's like upfront. A lot of it speaks to his success. But he was someone who was in many ways, notorious for going to the New York radio stations and giving them gifts, understanding, yes, this essentially is payola, but this is what everyone else is doing. This is what the people with the real money in the industry are doing. So he's leading into that as well. And you mentioned Kaiser Associates also makes me think about, there's one of the music videos that Jay had from in my Lifetime, volume one where, I forget which song it was, but the song essentially, you know, the music video essentially was a spoof, odd usual Suspects where he's impersonating the the Kevin Spacey, Kaiser Souzai character on it. Sorry for anyone that hasn't seen Usual Suspects for the spoilers I just dropped there. But there's so many things that I think tie in with that and just stay consistent with who he is at the time. [00:09:08] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I think that whole album, you know, the aesthetic was very like, maybe not Kaiser Soze, but, you know, sort of like gangster movie sort of thing and, you know, all the album artwork, you know, it's him and like a fedora and black and white and all that kind of thing. and so, you know, I think that, he's been obsessed with mafia movies for like, his entire life and you don't hear it quite as much, you know, as more recent albums. But he was kind of like living this underworld life at the time. And so I think it really resonated with him and maybe in a way that, that it, it doesn't quite resonate now. [00:09:44] Dan Runcie: And I think too that was in a lot of ways the theme that we saw he did in the nineties. You definitely saw Big Do It, especially in the whole life after death era, right before he passed. And I think there were a few moments that gave him the initial bump. Even after having Reasonable Doubt drop. Jay himself was featured on the Nutty Professor soundtrack because he had the song with, Foxy Brown that was also on his album. And then he's on Fox's album, album a little bit later. Her debut, he's also on, what's the song that Jay oh, David Brooklyn's finest, on Jay's album. [00:10:18] Zack Greenburg: Going back to Callie was on there. Oh my God, what an album. Yeah. But yeah, that was not, I would say Jay-Z got the better end of the collabs. with, the Brooklyn's Finest. I mean, that is a classic. Clark Kent produce that one also. And, you know, that was kind of like, that was another funny story from the book, like, you know, that there was also a bit of a friendly rival, mean, like they were, there were buds and all like, Jay and, and Big, but there was like a little bit of a friendly rivalry between, Jay and Dame and Puff and Big, because I think, you know, like, so the Whole Bad Boy thing was more established, by the time that Roc-A-Fella Records came about, and so I think Puff was kind of like Dame Dash, like another dude from Harlem, are you trying to be me? Kind of thing, you know, and so in order to make that song happen, I think before Jay and Big were friends, Clark kept kind of tricked them into recording the song together. So he was in the session with Big, and then he accidentally played a tape of a track that he had that was just an amazing track and Big was like, that's great. I wanna get on that. and he was like, no, I'm saving it for somebody else. And things like, well, who the hell else are you saving it for? And he is like, my man, Jay, you know, he's amazing. He's a beast. and big's like, I don't who, what Jay who. and so finally like Clark Kent sort of like goded him into, unbeknownst to big, Clark Kent had arranged for like Jay and Dame to be in a car downstairs. And he was like, oh, I think he's actually just coming in. And so he went down and he brought him up and so like Jay went in and recorded his verses, I think right then and there. And he left spaces for Big to put his verses in. and when Big went in and he listened to it, he was like, oh my God, this guy's so good. I have to like, go home and really think about this, about what I'm gonna put in there in the spaces that he left for me. and I think after that they were really good friends. but you know, it's, that kind of like, good nature trickery, shall we say. that, you know, I think some of these circumstances happen when you got some egos in the building and, you wanna make some magic. And, you know, as I recall, you know, for the chorus, Jay and Big had like become fast friends and, so like, they're leaving the studio and Clark's like, you know, on the final day that Biggie came and recorded or whatever, and Clark's like, what should I do for the chorus? And they're like, just scratch something. And that, that was how it happened. [00:12:44] Dan Runcie: Classic. And that's such a New York story, and it's also such a 90s hip hop story in terms of how the industry worked. Having someone like, oh, so-and-so's just downstairs, they're gonna come up right now because you have 'em, man, how people worked. Things classic. And it speaks to where Jay was at the time too, because as we mentioned, reasonable doubt, slow bird took a while for it to get. The respect that it deserves. But then you go to 1997, he has, in my lifetime, and that album also Slow Burn and wasn't necessarily as highly regarded as Reasonable Doubt, but still had some songs. And you could tell that Jay was trying to navigate a few things, whether it was he had the flashy suit ever himself when he had the song Always Be My Sunshine. He's feeling that out. I mentioned he had the Kaiser Souzai spoof music video, but it really isn't until 1998 where things start to change. So a few things happen here. The album Volume Two, Hard Knock Life comes out. That song, Hard Knock Life changes everything for the trajectory of that label, and that's when they start the partnership with Def Jam. So let's talk about the Def Jam piece first. Can you talk a little bit about that one and break it down? [00:13:57] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. So. As I recall, you know, in early Roc-A-Fella they had struck this, distribution deal. I think it was with priority. and you know, reasonable doubt was they had already been selling it on their own, sort of informally out of the trunks of cars. And then priority, you know, was distributing it. But it was kind of a disaster. They weren't paying Jay on time and, or maybe at all, at some point. And so he just kind of went back to 'em and was like, you know, if you're not gonna be paying me, or paying me everything, you're not paying me on time or whatever. Just like give my master's back and get me out of it. and somehow that's what happened. So that freed him up to be able to take this deal with Def Jam, where Def Jam bought a piece of Roc-A-Fella records. but again, you know, because they were buying a piece of it and not signing him to a deal. you know, he continued to own, you know, considerably higher portion of his own copyrights and, you know, possess more of the cash that came in than he would've otherwise. but you know, he already had the success. They already had this apparatus set up, so he had like, you know, he had leverage in a negotiation and I think, you know, even though his second album I think was kind of a dud and he would always, like, he has said in interviews that that's his worst album and the one that he'd like to have back. you know, he had some, heat, you know, with reasonable doubt. And then kind of like coming off the heels of Biggie's death and, being sort of like the heir parent. it was tight with Puffy who produced the second album, you know, for better or worse. But, you know, I think that really gave them sort of the ability to get what they wanted at a Def Jam, which was like, I think part of the reason that first album didn't do so well, and I think it was until fairly recently, his worst selling album, until sort of the back catalog began to catch up. But, what they needed was distribution those days was really important. Like you, you needed, you know, you could have Damon Dash, like Haranging, people at rec, you know, at radio stations all you want. But in order to really have the kind of, you know, national scale, that you need to be a superstar, at least in those days, really wanted to do with the label. So that's what they did, [00:15:59] Dan Runcie: Right, you needed someone that could get 500,000 units to 7,000 distribution points, and there were barriers to entry in order to do that. And yeah, to your point, I don't care how many bottles of champagne you try to give to Hot 97, that's not gonna make that happen without it, right? The thing that I always think about with this ever though, is the terms of this deal, because at least what we've seen publicly was that Def Jam had taken a 50% stake. In Roc-A-Fella records, and it was for one and a half million dollars. And that number always stuck out to me a bit because if you look at some of the other deals that had happened in that era, you had masterpieces distribution deal that he had done with the same priority records that Roc-A-Fella had their deal with. But Master P obviously had a much more favorable distribution deal with splits in his favor. And then similarly, that same year, 1998 Cash money, does their distribution deal with Republic Records? Of course, Def Jam is a different unit and Roc-A-Fella was in a very different place. And we know that Jay-Z had always talked about ownership and it was important to him. But it's a interesting reflection of just where things looked at in the landscape because it's easy to look back in Jay's career in hindsight and think that, oh yeah, his first album was a classic and then Hard Knock Life comes and everything is just up and up. But there was still. hierarchy and there were other artists that were getting more favorable deals, more ownership for their music, for their record labels. And Roc-A-Fella still got something that was somewhat favorable, but still not at the same level of some of those other people in the mid to late 90s. [00:17:40] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, that's a really interesting point, right? I mean, Jay obviously is this brilliant businessman and, you know, Damon and bigs aren't too shabby either. And yet it was a good deal, but it wasn't, anything like, a cash money or no limit in terms of the splits, and what they were doing. So, yeah, I mean, I think to your point, you know, those other acts, had kind of like a more established operation, you know, Jay was one guy with one album that didn't sell very well, that was kind of critically acclaimed, you know, so it was like A bit more of a risk perhaps, on Def Jams parts, they weren't really risking that much capital on them. So, you know, I mean, and I guess I wonder if that initial deal had been more favorable for Roc-A-Fella, if they had managed, to have, you know, the kind of splits that Cash Money and No Limit had might they have stayed in business together longer? You know, in a way it's like if the pie that you have or like if the one big pie, and, you know, if you're a slice of the pie that you're sharing with your two business partners is that much smaller than it is, than, you know, let's say the Williams brothers were sharing a cash money, you know, maybe you feel, a lot more restless and, inclined to go elsewhere, but we can get to that later. [00:18:59] Dan Runcie: that's a good point too, because if Cash Money is still in business. And we know cuz we recorded that episode not too long ago, but Birdman and Slim are still getting tens of millions of dollars per year. It's essentially a cash cow asset that they have. Def Jam is still collecting for Roc-A-Fella, as is universal. And I know that Jay and Damon Bigs do have their splits, but it's not the same because they eventually did sell the other half of the record label to the parent company Def Jam. I think it was Island Def Jam at the time that that deal happened. But it changes the dynamics a lot. But with the story though, we are getting to the point where Roc-A-Fella is clearly on the way up. And I think there were a few things coming that did set things up for them. But one thing that I think was a big difference maker for them around 1999 was them wanting to go on tour and. Have their name out there. So 1999 they have the Hard Knock Life tour and at this time it was pretty rare for, all Hip Hop Act to have a nationwide arena tour that happened because at the time they had past shows or whether it was at Run DMC shows or other things in the late 80s, early 90s, and cause of violence and because of things like that, all these promoters and all these venue operators were so scared of hip hop. So you had Smoking Grooves and other festivals like that in the mid nineties where they always had to pair you with the R&B actor. They had to have two folks together. I know that Bad Boy had its, arena tours as well, but they always had the R&B acts that were there, so they needed to, they were really trying to do something different. But I think this is where Dame's Magic came to life because he was able to really control the narrative and be out in front with how they were making sure that violence wouldn't happen, whether they had their own security on top of whoever was there. They had the fruit of Islam that was at each of these shows standing there to have the, bodyguards there as present. When the reporters came into the trailers to see what they were doing on tour, there's this iconic video of Tie Tie and he has videos up and this VHS tapes up of, oh, you think we're just watching gangster flicks? No, here we got Goodwill Hunting right here. We got Brave Part, we got as good as it gets. Like we're here watching videos like anyone else. And with that and even, I think they did something that was either, either donating money or something as well cause in Colorado, because they had a show right around the same time that the Columbine shooting had happened there. So there were a few things they'd done there. And I think that tour in a lot of ways helped. Not just the Roc-A-Fella crew, but all the other folks that were associated with them that came along like Red and meth and Ja Rule and others. But then after that, we then saw the Up and Smoke tour. We saw Rough Riders and Cash Money go on tour. And I think that tour in a lot of ways helped propel them into that next level to continue to have a lot of that success. [00:22:06] Zack Greenburg: Totally. And you know, and I think it wasn't necessarily reflected in the bottom line. I mean, I don't remember what the gross was, but, you know, 18 million I think. Yeah. Like Taylor Swift probably grossed that in one show at, [00:22:20] Dan Runcie: I think he made that in two of the three nights at, [00:22:23] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, definitely, definitely over a weekend in the Meadowlands, but yeah, she probably had definitely, let's say, definitely crushed it in her like little weekend did in the Meadowlands. But you know, and so obviously if you're grossing $18 million. You're probably only taking home, you know, 10 of that after cost, maybe like, probably more like, you know, I don't know, seven or eight. and then you're dividing that up amongst however many people. There were a lot of people on that tour for like a fair amount of tour days, so it did not work out to a lot of sort of take home pay per show, but it really kind of opened the door. I think in the aftermath of the death of Tupac, Biggie and like all of this, you know, sort of, like moral panic around hip hop and violence and all of the, you know, whatever Tipper Gore stuff, you know, that this was sort of like a reminder that like, yes, hip hop Acts can go on tour and it's gonna be fine. And like that, you know, that had been done in the past and, run DMC and what have you. But, you know, NWA had gone on tour and, you know, had a big national tour. So there were other examples before, but I think people were like, kind of freaked out about hip hop in the national zeitgeist at the time, and this kind of really helped to kind of reset things. And, you know, opened the door for other rappers, but, you know, for Jay-Z himself down the line, you know, I mean, he's been a really prolific touring act and I think he's always been really clever, about it because, he's like, even now, like he can sell out arenas, but, you know, he's not like, I don't know, he sort of can't necessarily do, he can't sell out stadiums by himself, that's for sure. And there was a time when he couldn't sell out arenas by himself. and there's probably a time when he couldn't sell Amphitheaters by himself, but he always goes around, he brings somebody with him and he's got a really good kind of, level of self-evaluation and he's like, you know, he doesn't let his hubris get in the way of like, I can sell out whatever, whatever. unless he knows he can, you know, he, he's very accurate in that assessment. And if he can't make it, then he just brings somebody with him. He brings Eminem with them. you know, he goes out with Beyonce for the stadium tour. So, you know, Justin Timberlake with him. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So in a way, I think that tour was kind of the beginning of that. And, you know, how he could, see some synergies by mixing and matching with other artists [00:24:35] Dan Runcie: And that tour too Hard Knock Life tour. He showed signs of that awareness there. There's this iconic clip when Jay-Z was on the shop a couple years ago and he's talking about the show. This was shortly after DMX had passed away and Jay-Z was going on tour in each of these nights after X and X's shows, you know, he's taken off his shirt, he's doing prayers at the end. So you have people that are laughing, you have people that are crying, then people that are screaming and then they come out and they're like, oh, now you go like pointed to Jay-Z. And I mean, one Jay's storytelling of that is good. When we post this episode, we'll definitely share this clip in there, but two, it showed this awareness that people have spoke about of, and it's also what you're saying, even if he may not have always been the central act and another running thing that people have said over the years, what year was Jay-Z, the top guy in hip hop? And I think that is a very debatable thing, but it's the longevity and that's the thing that speaks to it. And how he's been able to stay through that over the years. And because he was always that core piece, like we said, price is probably one of the reasons that they didn't get a no limit or a cash money type deal. It really was just him. I think there was that one R&B album that Rocefella hadn't released in 1997, but didn't really go anywhere with that artist. So things didn't really pick up until late nineties, early two thousands. And you start to see more of the artists on Roc La Familia, and they're really able to spread their wings in that way. [00:26:10] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, another thing to remember, at the time, you know, especially, I think it was 98, 99, that was when, you know, Def Jam. So I think Def Jam had already taken a pretty significant, institutional investor, but, they were selling the company or like maybe the remainder of the company or most of the remainder of the company. There's this really, really big deal happening. and I forget which sort of, European entertainment conglomerate was it Bertlesman or It was like, was, something that's since been reconstituted or, or whatever. But the, the deal was gonna happen and you know, the deal was gonna be for whatever multiple of revenue, that Roc-A-Fella had or not Roc-A-Fella, that Def Jam had produced in the prior year. And so for the, I think it was the calendar year of 1999. And so, Lyor and Russell just like leaned really hard on Jay and DMX and they were like, we need you to put out like two albums in 12 months because we're just gonna get a multiple of that. And I don't remember the exact advances that, that were given, but you know, I'm sure it was considerable. And so, you know, they were able to put out like each of them two really killer albums in the span of like about 12 months each. which is like kind of unheard of these days, right? I mean, Jay-Z goes, is like five years between albums now and, I think that was, volume two and volume three for Jay-Z. And I think for DMX, it's dark and. [00:27:38] Dan Runcie: Dark as hell and hot and then flesh and my flesh blood. And then, and those were like, like, and then there was X was the third. Oh, then there was X. [00:27:45] Zack Greenburg: That's right, that's right. So those were like, like two, like for each of them to [00:27:49] Dan Runcie: a year and a half spare albums. [00:27:51] Zack Greenburg: I mean, yeah, back to back, you know, man, like to have that much, sort of creative energy to do it so quickly, and to have it sell so well, I mean, it is quite a feat and you know, and they, personally enriched Russell and Lyor and Rick Rubin, like, I would say quite substantially cuz it just drove up that multiple. And, yeah, I think a lot of people kind of forget, how critical they were, you know, to that process. But it probably also caught thinking like, Why am I working so hard to make somebody else, you know, I'm getting rich, but they're getting wealthy and, I think the gears are continuing to turn for him at that point and he's like, Hmm, how do I kind of get to be more in their position, right? [00:28:32] Dan Runcie: Cuz I think at this time, this is when you start seeing more of the Roc-A-Fella expansions in a few ways. First Dame is already thinking about ways to extend this brand. You see Roc films, Streets is watching comes out in the late nineties and then they put out a whole documentary about the Hard Knock life tour as well. And they start selling that as the DVD Rocawear comes out. And we're gonna do a whole episode about Rocawear eventually, but, you know, Rocawear itself. And then you also just start to see more and more product coming from Roc-A-Fella that isn't necessarily from Jay himself. And I was looking back from a timeline. And this is one of the unfortunate things about Roc-A-Fella, we're gonna get to this, but right around the time they split, you could argue that they were just continuing to go up and up and up with the releases every year. Like this is the 12 month stretch that they had where I think they had the highest products. Starting in February 20th, 2003, you had freeway drops, Philadelphia Freeway, Dipset Drops, diplomatic immunity. Joels has his debut album. Jay-Z drops the Black album, Memphis Bleak drops his, and then top of 2004 Ye drops College Dropout, Young Guns drops their debut. And that's all in a 12 month span. That's some no limit cash, money level of dropping albums. And so there's so many hits and so many memorable songs that they had during that stretch. [00:29:59] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think that if, you know, we were talking earlier about the splits and so forth, but it's like, can you imagine. If they had the kind of splits to catch money it had, when you have all those albums coming out and, you know, yeah, I think it really would've changed things. Not only that, but you know, to own the masters of all those artists, which you probably would've in those days. you know, to have like a hundred percent or something close to it on all those artists with all those classics. you know, it would've been very hard to walk away from, you know, as they eventually ended up doing. [00:30:33] Dan Runcie: And I think what you mentioned earlier, probably alludes to this, right? Because if there's enough of the pie to these split between the three founders and everyone else, and they're the one accruing the assets from what they have, then maybe Jay and Dame are more likely to figure out their differences in a way to make things cook because it's working for everyone. But when you're still paying Def Jam in on top of that, or you're still paying island def jam in on top of that universal even more money, it's tough to justify that. And I think this is a good time to talk about the split. The infamous split between Jay-Z and Damon Dash. You could start to see that the two of them were going in different areas where Jay-Z was wanting to be really focused in on what he was doing from a music perspective, wanting to expand there and wanting to just do different creative things. But Dame had his own approach, and we talked a little bit about that with, the films and the sports and other things too. But he also wanted to do things his way. He was starting to get a little bit more spotlight. And then there's that infamous clip of them at Summer Jam 2001, where Dame Dash is in his full element. And Jay-Z's just like expressionless. And that clip is often looked at as like you knew from this moment. That these two just were necessarily gonna be at the same page because this is 2001, Jay-Z's are drop about to drop the blueprint, his masterpiece. And granted, you know, he could have just been in the zone or whatever, but it's definitely an unfortunate thing because granted, Jay-Z was able to reach further heights, but you never know what could have happened. You just look at how much Rocawear ended up selling for you. Look at the continued success, the momentum, and I think what it boils down to is to. People that had different philosophies where it makes it tough. Jay-Z was a bit more focused on wanting to be rich. He was willing to do partnerships with others if everyone could eat and have a piece of the pie. Granted, he still wanted ownership, but as you've written about before, he has his perceptions on underdog brands and how he could move like a private equity executive and make the right investments. And even the m and a deals he's continued to do today, his live nation deal is the element of this. But Dame was a bit more wanting to be king. He wanted to have his stamp on things. And I think you see that even now today with Dame Dash Studios, Dame Dash, this, like, it's very important for him to be able to have his kids and his other folks around him be able to work with him and be the boss, not necessarily wanting anyone to tell you what you can and can't do. And that infamous Breakfast Club interview that they had, I think it was 2015 when he's yelling at DJ Envy and Charlemagne about, well, they gotta report to whoever at Power 105 and that's their manager, that they're not a real boss, is an element of that whole dynamic. So it's frustrating that it happened, but it's also not surprising. [00:33:26] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Jay has kind of adjusted his views on ownership and he said recently, I mean, he's sold some of his big brands, or sold half of it into, a JV with like LVMH or you know, or whatever. And he's very much of the mind of like, well, I, you know, 50% of like a billion is a lot more than a hundred percent of, you know, a couple hundred million, and I think Dave, that's [00:33:51] Dan Runcie: that you did with Kevin Hart, right? [00:33:53] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly right. So, and I don't remember the exact quote, but maybe you could, maybe you guys can pull it up, but I don't think Dame really ever got that. He was always like, well, I want a hundred percent, you know, and so, you know, he ended up with a hundred percent of like, whatever, you know, seven or eight figure amount that he ended up with. But he could have had, you know, 50% or 30% or something of like billions of many billions probably. But you know, just to kind of like, I think there was a precipitating moment that sort of like was the end of, Roc-A-Fella a s it was, a partnership between the three of them. But it really could have been anything. it was headed that way for a couple of years. And, you know, I think what it comes down to, is that, I don't know. I mean, I think that Jay also recognized that Dame was very, very valuable. The skillset was especially valuable in the come up. And, you know, like when you are not well known, you need somebody to go in and yell at somebody at the radio station. you know, but then when you get there, you need somebody to like not yell at certain people, you know? And, when you get to that next level, and sort of Dame, you know, didn't adjust, To that. And, Damon was sort of Damon or wherever he was. And it was great in one situation, not great in another situation. So I think the precipitating incident was basically when, you know, after this sale, which ironically Roc-A-Fella helped, boost, you know, the Def Jam sale. There was a reshuffling of executives, which is like so complicated. I'd have to go back to that chapter of my book to, to look at it. But the gist of it was the role of president at Def Jam, opened up and, it was offered to Jay-Z. And so, you know, Jay-Z, this is something that he had sort of, it's this like great prestige job. something that he'd always been wanting. And I don't think he wanted it, like, this is my dream job that I've always wanted. As much as it was like, if I can do this, be a CEO, this opens the door to so many other things. And it will really sort of entrench me as not being pigeonholed as an artist. And, it was a no-brainer and of course there was no way to do this without, stepping on Dame's toes. So, you know, there's this whole great drama, and I think, you know, the wheels started turning when Jay-Z was, you know, on, on a yacht in the south of France with like Beyonce and Jimmy Iovine and Bono or something and, kicking it. And, you know, there's some executives there. Some conversations were had, I think at the same time back home, Dame, like elevated camera on to VP level at Roc-A-Fella without consulting Jay. And it was this kind of like big scandal and when Jay-Z came home, he was like, no. And he kind of demoted him. So there was some awkwardness there. but you know, I think then that Jay kinda like accelerated his, push toward this CEO role, and when he got it, it's like, all right, you know, sorry Dave, I'm your boss now. I mean, because of course Def Jam was, but Roc-A-Fella, there was really. There was no way for it not to be structured like that. so, you know, when that went down, of course, like Dame immediately, you know, quit or left or whatever, and, there was a hot minute where he started the Damon Dash Music group within Universal, but, you know, then he kind of like kept doing the same thing and kind of yelling at the wrong people. And, and so that didn't really go anywhere. And, you know, the thing kind of fizzled out and Jay offered to, I think he wanted to give, at the time, he wanted to give, Biggs and Dame, like all of his preexisting masters in exchange for exclusive ownership of Reasonable Doubt. they said no. but of course, you know, I don't know that the Black album had gotten as big, is it? You know, I hadn't like really fully blossomed into what it, what it ultimately was at that time. And there's like all this other, so anyway, I mean, there's a lot of like trades being offered and you know, people sort of like, you know, it's like the guy in your family in football league, your fantasy baseball league. You kinda like overvalue his own players. Think I've made this analogy before, but, dude, come on. Like, you know, you're running back, just got injured and offering you my extra running back for this wide receiver who you're not even music anyway. it didn't really work out. Everybody got all pissed on each other, you know, at the end there's bad blood. so th there's this great moment that Dame talks about how, shortly after all this went down and they're like in the elevator at, I guess the Universal Museum, that Def Jam was housed in. and Roc-A-Fella had been housed in or something. And they're like bumping each other in the elevator and Dame is wearing a state property shirt and Jay C's like in the suit. And Dame's like, man, you know, things are really different now. Like, dude, you changed, you know? so, you know, I don't know if Jay changed so much as like Dame didn't change, you know? you could argue the problem was that Jay changed, but you could also argue that problem is that, that Dame didn't. And, you know, I mean, to some extent like power to him, you know, be you. but Jay, you know, in the way that I think you know, he's constantly changing. He's restless, he's always, everything is a chessboard. He's always evolving, you know, I think ultimately there was no way to stay locked into a partnership with someone who wasn't kind of willing to change with them. [00:38:59] Dan Runcie: One thing you mentioned there made me think about how they think about things and where they are from a strategic perspective, Dame is very much your early stage startup guy. He's great for the pre-seed era. He's great for when you're even in the seed stage, maybe even series A, but once you get to that series B, C, you're starting to get some higher level executives. You're getting more talent, you're gone to bigger things. You can't operate the same way and no different. How those organizations often need to rotate and think about leadership. That's essentially what in many ways was the opportunity there at Roc-A-Fella. And there's nothing wrong with being very successful at that pre precede seed stage. I don't think Roc-A-Fella would've got to that point if it weren't for Dame hustling in many absolutely ways, whether it was on tour radio, and I think a lot of his success traits have been carried through and things we've seen celebrated and leaders in tech and people that do things that don't scale that very much is Dame Dash. That next level, though, is where things did get a little bit tough because the label's clearly getting ready to go to that next level, and they just had their tensions there. The thing that was unique though, about their tensions is that the artists themselves that were on Roc-A-Fellas started picking sides in terms of who they wanted to be with, who they were gonna side with, Jay versus Dame, and as you mentioned, Dame was the one that had elevated Cameron, who was the leader of Dipset at the time, to that VP level. That then brings everyone from dipset under his umbrella, but Ye, who had just dropped the college dropout and he was the one that was always trying to make it. He then signs with Jay, he also has a very memorable interview on the Breakfast Club where they asked him about this, and Ye was the one that was like, me and Dame we're the same. We think the same. This is how we act and go about things but I could learn more from Jay. He knows how to talk to people and he uses Jay's iconic lines. He's like, Jay knows how to move in a room full of vultures. That's just how he is and sometimes I be talking and saying the wrong things, which is a very ironic thing. I don't know if Kanye himself would admit that now, cuz that very much is a self-serving prophecy. I do think that there's a lot of truth in that, and just how things ended up shaking out for both of them. You saw the moves that everyone continued to make, and even though ye has definitely been quite polarizing in the public spotlight, a lot of the moves that he continued to make, whether it was with Yeezy or with the partnerships he's had, I do think stemmed from how he looked up to his own big brother in Jay. [00:41:42] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And he could have easily gone with Dame, right? I mean, you know, Jay wasn't so great to him early. Jay didn't believe in him as a rapper, he kind of wanted to keep him as a producer and Dame was, I think, the one who really advocated for Kanye as a rapper. but you know, I think Kanye, in his, you know, like more self-aware moments can say things like, oh, I think I could learn more from Jay. He brings something to table that I don't have, for Dame, I think the difference between Dame and Kanye is that they're very similar, in a lot of ways. But Dame isn't an artist. like, let's say a generationally talented artist. And so people will not put up with you if you're an executive. And you bring along those headaches in the way that they would put along, put up with you if you're a generational artist and you bring those headaches. And I think that was sort of like also, something that did Damon. And you know, in a way I think Damon Puff had a lot in common like they can just go in and kind of bulldoze their way into something. but Puff has that, that like other level where he can sort of like turn it up and down and, you know, to fit the situation. and is like more of a chameleon than Dame is. And Dame's just kind of dame all the time. so, you know, those are sort of the, personalized to play. But you know, like one person who gets lost in the shuffle here is Cameron. And because that was sort of the prime of his career that got like, entangled in this sort of higher level beef. but you know, you think about that album, come home with me and Hey man, like, I mean, Cam was really on fire, going into this whole situation. And then he got kind of like, I don't say like exactly lost in the shuffle, but almost lost in the shuffle. You know? and you just kind of wonder how his career would've gone, you know, let's say if, sort of he hadn't been like Dame's guy, you know, if what if he had gone to Def Jam? You know, what would that have looked like? could he have been on the level of somebody who signed? You know, like, I don't know. I mean, around that time, I think, Rick Ross signed a Def Jam, was it? [00:43:41] Dan Runcie: Ross, Jeezy, yeah. [00:43:43] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, like, you know, I think certainly has, you know, comparable ability, Tyler and those guys and, you know, I think both of them went on to have, You know, sort of like more longevity. but like, you know, I think, some of the Dipset classics and some of the solo stuff too, I mean, it's pretty unbeatable. So, you know, I just wonder, he's had a really good career, either way. But like, you know, I don't know that he ever like, broke through that next level, consistently, you know, to the point where he could just kind of stay there indefinitely. And, I wonder if he might have, if things had kind of gone differently in the Jay-Dame scenario, [00:44:21] Dan Runcie: The man had men wearing pink. He started his own fashion. Yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah, that's true. Unbelievable. With that, I think it's a good chance to hit through some of these categories, cuz I think you're jogging my memory the few things here. what do you think is the best signing that happened under Roc-A-Fella? [00:44:39] Zack Greenburg: Well, I guess you can't count Jay if he, you know, co-founded Right Label. But, you know, I'd say probably Kanye. it's hard to top that. And when, you know, when you think about those first few albums, you know, I mean, he brought an element into hip hop, into the mainstream that just wasn't there. and, you know, I don't think, you know, if you hadn't had Kanye, in the pink polo, and you know, talking about his feelings, like, I don't know if you get Drake right. I think that he kind of changed the discourse. he brought hiphop to the mainstream and then he also like brought a different sort of voice to hiphop, And it was fantastically lucrative, obviously, for everybody involved. So, yeah, I agree with Kanye, for sure. [00:45:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah, agreed. And then just given the longevity there, even into the early 2010s, still putting out records under the Roc-A-Fella Records umbrella that still went back to them. And longevity that lasted longer than most of the people that were assigned to that label. So I think it has to be him. Best Business Move made, I know we talked about a few of them, but what do you think is the best business move that to come from the Roc-A-Fella era? [00:45:47] Zack Greenburg: Hmm. I mean, it's funny now that we look at it, I mean, in a way, know, the deal itself that set up Roc-A-Fella was not, you know, it wasn't a bad deal, but it was not the best, move. It wasn't the best kind of financial arrangement. you know, I mean, Rocawear is kind of an offshoot. Maybe that's cheating, but I'm gonna go with Rocawear because I think in some ways they're like, well, we can't get a hundred percent of the money on this thing, so we're gonna create an adjacent brand that's like very clearly associated with it that we can really monetize fully. And you know, I mean they got paid, I mean that, that company was doing hundreds of millions in revenue and they sold it for hundreds of millions. So, you know, I think they made more off of Roca wear, than they ever made off of Roc-A-Fella. So I'll go with Rocawear, we can talk more about it when we do the full Roca too. [00:46:36] Dan Runcie: I know. Yeah. I'd Rocawear as well. I won't go into the company itself cuz Yeah. We'll get into that in the next one. But I do think the good thing about that was it was a precursor to how artists now are thinking about their own revenue, their own business models, right? How they're using streaming, how they're using anything else that gives them a platform. Use that to grow your audience, use that to grow the awareness while generating money for that, establish the base. So some of those other business units were likely more influential, thinking about them doing the deals with Def Jam and then them having the hard knock life tour. But I do think Rocawear was the best business thing to come through there for sure. [00:47:18] Zack Greenburg: And just a s like a subset of that. I think the philosophy that was embodied by Roca wear, you know, the idea of like, they wanted to go Roca wear started because they wanted to go. there, there was this Italian, knitwear brand. iceberg. And they like went to the iceberg offices and said, Hey, can you give us some free t-shirts or something for wrapping about your thing? And they're like, or no, I think they wanted an endorsement deal. They wanted some cash for an endorsement. and then the executives were like, we'll give you some free t-shirts. And, Dave was like, this is stupid. Let's go start our own thing. So, but I think that was really the beginning of, you know, like, I'm not gonna give, free publicity to other brands. I'm just gonna go start my own thing and rap about it. Like other rappers have done it. But, it became so pervasive for Jay-Z's mindset. It wasn't just like, I'm gonna do my own clothing line and I'm sorry, I'm gonna do my own champagne. I'm gonna do my own cognac. I'm gonna try to do my own car. I'm gonna try to do like a freaking video game, you know, he was involved in so many things that kind of sprung from that. so I think the implications were much broader than just, the clothing aspect. [00:48:28] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Next one here is the dark horse business move. So one that we actually haven't talked about, but I do think is one that Roc-A-Fella definitely lead into was the Jay-Z and Nas beef. The controversy that this was able to stem and start, I briefly mentioned Summer Jam 2001, but everything from then and just the drama from there, the two of them back and forth, Jay drop in takeover that, NAS drop in Ether, that whole back and forth was able to then create so much interest. They had all those beef DVDs that were g blowing up in the two thousands, I think largely came up cause of how they were able to reignite beef from essentially the biggest beef that hip hop had seen since Biggie and Tupac several years earlier. Yeah, it was huge and the level of. Bars that I think we're able to get the songs they're able to get back and forth. Just the impressiveness of Nas essentially taking on this whole entire unit by himself. People can debate whether or not who won and lost, whether you're looking specifically from a battle perspective versus who won in the long term. But we eventually see them come together on American gangster and they continue this f familiar relationship ever since. But I do think that this was the height of the time to really sell controversy. Obviously we saw 50 cent and others continue to do that too, you know, their own, putting their own flavor on as well. But I do think that Jay-Z and Nas Beef still was one of the little crown jewels that they had with this. [00:50:05] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And, you could tell that it was like there was real enmity there. but also, you know, the fact that it, it never turned violent, I think was just. I think it was really good for hip hop, and I don't think it was ever going to turn violent, but I think again, there was just this kind of like national paranoia around hip hop and, there is, you know, in waves. I think it was just a, good reminder that you can have like a spirited dispute and, it's okay and it's entertainment, you know? and it's, nothing that anybody needs to be afraid of. So, you know, of course like credit to Jay and Nas for resolving it amicably, but man, you know, like just being in New York and that time and like the Barbs going back and forth and man, I think that's the only time that, like a beef has gotten so nasty that, a rapper's mother has like, made him basically apologized for saying something mean, which, I think that was Jay-Z's response to Ether. I think Ether was sort of like the pinnacle of it and Jay-Z's response to it was like, not quite as good, like, how do you top ether? but I think Jay-Z's was just like, viscerally, like, you know, won't get too deep into it because if, Jay-Z had to like, call in to apologize for it, you know, I dunno if we can even talk about it on a podcast. But yeah, I mean just, to have that end, you know, like very amicably I think was just so good for everybody involved. And then, you know, I think it's really fun to watch, Jay and Nas as their relationship has evolved. And, you know, Nas was sort of always like the one who was sort of behind, when it came to the business of things. and then, you know, like he really was music first all the time. And, you know, I think some people thought that he would never really kind of blossom as a businessman, but then, you know, he became sort of the leader, within hip hop entering the venture capital world and, you know, created this great, Queensbridge Venture partners and, you know, invested early and just about every startup you can name and has had all kinds of fantastic exits. And, you know, I think it's so funny that Jay-Z then started MVP, you know, Marcy. So it, it's like definitely like a nod to Nas, you know, each of them naming their venture fund after the project where they grew up. So, I think that's super cool. And, you know, they still like drop these little subliminal, I don't know, like references, where you could tell they're kind of like tweaking each other, just like. You know, like sibling rivalry kind of thing. which is I think, really fun to watch. And, you know, I think that there's some friendly competition around deals and so forth these days. But it's just, it's so fascinating to like, watch the evolution from this real knockdown, drag out, very personal beef, that occurred, you know, to now like, sort of like comparing deal flow. And I think it speaks very positively toward like, the evolution of the business of hip hop. [00:53:03] Dan Runcie: Definitely. You think about things that they wrapped about in their most recent, songs that have been popular, right? Like Nas's song where he calls himself Cryptocurrency Scarface, or Yeah, yeah. Jay-Z. what was that line in God did with Khali where he is like, oh, we had cap tables, not that cap table, or something like that. I mean, he's clearly leading into that stuff. What do you think is the missed opportunity if of any, from Roc-A-Fella besides the split, cause I know we've talked about that, but there any other missed opportunities, especially from that 96 to 03, 04 range? [00:53:37] Zack Greenburg: I think it's Armadale Armadale, like, and you know, that kind of came to be, I think of anybody that was more Biggs's pet project, than Jay or Dame. Although, you know, Jay was kind of trying to make it happen. He would, he had it. If you recalled the MTV Unplugged album, which as actually might be my favorite Jay-Z album of all time. It's kind of cheating cause it's not a studio album, but, it's so good. He's backed up by the race anyway. He's like, some point he's like, I need to stop for some Armadale. I need an army break, you know, he was really trying to shout it out everywhere he could. But already when they started doing that, you know, they were on the outs I think. And, I think Jay-Z wasn't fully invested in it because why would he get fully invested in it? And then another thing that he was partners with Bigs and Damon, I don't think anything against Bigs, obviously. And I think they're totally cool now. And they've, been doing some stuff together more recently. but like, why would he go do that when he could just wait and then do something on his own? But, you know, I mean, Armadale could have been cRoc, right? if they'd done it right, there's no reason that it couldn't have been. I mean, it's the same formula. It's like European unknown, whatever. And then, you know, put it in videos, put it in songs, and, you make it, you know, whatever it's gonna be. And you know, we've seen what Jay has done with Deuce and Armando Biac, so we know he can do it. It's not only Puff who can do it, only a few people who can do it. Levelly can do it, but like Jay and Puff can do it and done it. And Jay could have done it with Armadale, just, you know, At the timing just didn't quite work out. [00:55:03] Dan Runcie: I think Armadale had one memorable shout out from the Jay-Z song. It was, excuse me, miss, right where he is talking about Armadale popping off. but that's also the same song. I think he gave Cristal a pretty big shout out there where he is like, it's not Cristal, it's Cristal, right? But then a couple years later, he is like, no like obviously we're done with Cristal because of, you know, comments, racist comments that the founder or the CEO had said at the time, my missed opportunity is one that highlights something that I think Jay-Z did well, but it probably could have done more of. And that's movie soundtracks. If you ask certain Jay-Z fans, I do think that they have American gangster as one of their top Jay-Z albums, as they should. It's a great album. I honestly think the album's probably even better than that movie is in particular points. But Jay-Z, so that movie, that soundtrack comes out 2007. He missed, I think an entire wave of times when movie soundtracks, in my opinion, were even, were just bigger deals than they are by even 2007 and even later on. And now I think it's very hit or miss that you could even get a soundtrack to that level. But especially during the Roc era. And I know that he had songs that were popular on the, but really being the mc behind an entire soundtrack in that type of way, I think could have been there probably could have been more opportunities to do something like that earlier on. [00:56:26] Zack Greenburg: Oh, I like that's a really deep cut. [00:56:28] Dan Runcie: So a few more things here on Roc-A-Fella, Well, we've seen just continued spats back and forth. Not necessarily jabs, but just comments back and forth between Jay and Dame. It's been nearly 20 years since this split. We've definitely seen more from Dame than Jay, and it's one of those things where it does become a bit sad to see and frustrating to see at times and not be expecting to be best of friends. We have seen Jay-Z say things that are quite complimentary. When he got inducted into the Roc and Roll Hall of Fame, he did shout out both him and Biggs and say, Hey, this wouldn't have happened without either of you, regardless of what had happened, you know, in our past. Gotta give you guys both shouts for that. But then we've also seen Dame say things during the years, and I think he's. Alternated on whether or not he's wanted to speak on them and stuff. But it's one of these things that is a bit frustrating to see because I think about it when I think about NBA players and how they've had issues over the years. Kobe and Shaq, of course, infamously, they continue to talk about each other for years and then eventually they came and they had that sit down chat on TBS, right? Where they're talking back and forth. If they and Dame ever did something like that, they don't even have to go do it on some platform. They could do it on their own thing. It would be box office. It would be great to be able to see that and just see how, then hear them talk things out. Because even another NBA thing, Kevin Garnet and Ray Allen of course said, had their infamous dispute because Ray Allen went to go join the Miami Heat. Kevin Garnet, very intense, hated that that was their rival. But then after Ray Allen had walked past him at the 75th anniversary thing last year, that's when KG was like, okay, what if Ray Allen passes the same way, passes away the same way that Kobe Bryant did? I would, yeah, be very upset with myself if that ever happened. So it's like, Hey, you guys are both in your 50s now. You never know what can happen. We're seeing a lot of artists and a lot of entertainers that we love that are around the same age as Jay and Dame have unfortunate health scares. If there's a way that, not even that it needs to be public just for our consumption, but if there's a way to see them ever rekindle things at that perspective, that would be nice to see, at least in a public way. [00:58:44] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, I think it'd be great. I just don't know. I just don't know that it would happen, you know? I mean, I think that Jay has so fully moved on. I just don't know if, he would do it. and I think just sort of like the nature of Dame, is to sort of like want the spotlight and I think James just kind of like wouldn't want to deal with that, you know? I think Dame would want to come into it with sort of like equal billing and it kind of goes back to a strategy that Jay has had, throughout his career, which is like, you know, I think he learned this when he had the lion. I'm about a dollar, what the fuck is 50 cent? And that was like when nobody knew 50 cent was, and it kind of catapulted him into the conversation even though within hip hop Dash is obviously. You know, really well known and, let's say highly respected by some, maybe infamous to others, but, you know, he's definitely a known quantity. I think in the national conversation, Damon Dash is not known. And I think that now that Jay-Z is in this sort of international phase of his, you know, of his career, like that same philosophy might apply. Like, I don't want to sort of like give free publicity to somebody, you know, for no reason. So, you know, I don't know. I mean, maybe if you were in some kind of legacy burnishing mode and like, you know, mending fences or something like that, but it might have to come down to some kind of like, somebody has a health issue situation, you know, for it to really like resolve it in that way. And I just don't know, like again, in terms of it being, you know, like box office, I mean, it would be great versus, you know, yeah. but I don't know that people would tune in for like a Jay-Dame special or something like that. And I don't know that Jay, that's what Jay would want for his brand. I think, you know, Jay-Z wants to be like Jay and Bill Gates do a one-on-one sit down. Like he, I don't think he wants to like, go back to that period of his life. [01:00:46] Dan Runcie: I think that's fair because I think that's a good clarification because it would almost be like, it, maybe it would be less like the Kobe and Shaq thing would almost be more like Jordan and Pippen, where like Pippen is the one that's saying like, wild shit about Michael Jordan. Yes. And Michael Jordan's like, I'm in rooms right now considering selling my stake in the Charlotte Hornets for Yeah. Hundreds of millions of dollars right now, maybe even billions at this point. Yeah. So I think to your point, it likely is something that would mean a lot to people within hip hop, but not necessarily at this level where, you know, it's not like both of these people were clearly at doing the same thing. They were complimentary, but one was the artist. And the artist is always gonna have a bit of that poll there. So, yeah. And I guess we close things out, as we do with these case study breakdown episodes, we always break down who won the most from this record label in this era. Jay-Z's the obvious answer, but if we were to take Jay-Z out of the equation, who do we think is the person that won most from Roc-A-Fella records? [01:01:50] Zack Greenburg: Well, I mean, you know, I would almost argue that Dame was the big winner, over Jay, because Jay has gone on to do all these other things. And granted, like if he hadn't gotten to start and Dame hadn't been sort of like the early stage VC for him, You know, would he have, finally made it? I kind of think he eventually would've made it anyway. and I think that, you know, the Roc-A-Fella years were the peak of Dame's career. and, you know, he will always be, known in some circles and, you know, and revered in some circles for his role there. you know, in a way that every, you know, I'd say nothing he's done since, has sort of done for him if that makes any sense. [01:02:35] Dan Runcie: I get that. I followed that logic. My answer is Kanye and I think we talked about this a little bit, but I just. Because I think the core piece of the question is, where would this person have been without Roc-A-Fella records, right? I feel like Jay, or I feel like Dame probably would've found someone, probably even another artist in Harlem to attach his way to, I don't think there was anything stopping him in the late nineties era for doing what he eventually did.  He could have teamed up with Irv Gotti and done it with Murder Inc. I think he could have like, done it with a few of these other groups potentially. But would ye have been in the same situation if it weren't for Roc-A-Fella? I think he clearly is talented, but I think he needed a little bit more of the stars aligning in the right way for him to have had the career path. Interesting. [01:03:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think, you know, specifically what he was selling, you know, nobody was buying at the time, right? Like and it took someone with street cred. someone like Dame, someone like Jay to take a chance on him and elevate him and sort of into the national conversation that then, you know, allowed there to be sort of more demand for it, and, for people to really get invested in it. So, yeah, I mean, I think kind of would've figured something out, but, you know, I really do wonder, I mean, he might've just gone a totally different group, you know, like he might've just been, like unknown in hiphop circles, but gone and done something totally different in, you know, in fashion circles and maybe become known, in hiphop circles, only in the way that somebody like Virgil Ablo became known. [01:04:02] Dan Runcie: Right. Or almost like a Jane d or someone like that. Mm-hmm. You have to be in it, and then you're like, do you hear the brilliance of the music that this person produced? [01:04:09] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a really good point. So it could have been a very different path for him too. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. It's a good one. [01:04:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Well, I know we could talk for another hour about Roc-A-Fella itself [01:05:14] Zack Greenburg: All right. Very good. Thanks again, Dan. [01:05:16] Dan Runcie: You too, Zach. Thanks, man. [01:05:17] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. This is the breakdown on Roc-A-Fella Records. Founded in 1995 by the trio of Shawn “Jay Z” Carter (the talent), Damon “Dame” Dash (the promoter), and Kareem “Biggs” Burke (the silent partner), it became one of hip-hop’s most iconic labels.


The label took time to develop. Jay’s debut album, Reasonable Doubt, is now seen as a certified classic, but took time to get that recognition. It wasn’t until 1997 when Def Jam acquired a 50 percent stake in the label and The Roc went to that next level.


Roc-A-Fella then created Rocawear, Roc Films, and went on an unprecedented arena tour across the country — rare for rappers at the time. Other artists like Cam’Ron, Kanye West, Beanie Sigel, and Freeway joined the squad.. 


Despite the success, the founders grew apart, which led to its infamous split. To break it all down, I was joined by my friend and Jay Z biographer, Zack O’Malley Greenburg. Here’s what we covered:


1:20 Roc-A-Fella origin story

7:21 Reasonable Doubt

09:43 Friendly rivalry with Bad Boy Records

12:43 50-50 deal with Def Jam

15:59 How Roc-A-Fella’s deal compared to others

18:59 The Hard Knock Life Tour’s impact 

28:32 Expanding the brand beyond Jay Z 

30:32 Why Dame and Jay’s split was inevitable

38:59 Artists taking sides

44:21 Best Roc-a-Fella signing?

45:22 Best business move?

48:27 Dark Horse move?

53:02 Missed opportunity? 

59:07 Will Dame and Jay ever make up?

1:00:45 Who won the most from Roc-a-Fella? 


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Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog

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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Zack Greenburg: I think it was really good for hip hop, and I don't think it was ever going to turn violent, but I think again, there was just this kind of like national paranoia around hip hop and, there is, you know, in waves.

I think it was just a, good reminder that you can have like a spirited dispute and, it's okay and it's entertainment, you know? and it's, nothing that anybody needs to be afraid of. So, you know, of course like credit to Jay and Nas for resolving it amicably, yeah, I mean just, to have that end, you know, like very amicably I think was just so good for everybody involved. And then, you know, I think it's really fun to watch, Jay and Nas as their relationship has evolved And, you know, Nas was sort of always like the one who was sort of behind, when it came to the business of things.

[00:00:46] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:01:13] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: This episode is a rewind. We're going back in the clock to the late nineties, early two thousands, and we are revisiting one of. The most iconic record labels at the time, the one and only Roc-A-Fella Records. Roc-A-Fella Records, is the record label started by Jay-Z Dame Dash, Big Burke, and went on to be one of the most iconic hip hop record labels and hip hop brands, and that's a key thing from this conversation.

I was joined by my friend Zach O'Malley Greenberg. He wrote Empire State of Mind, a biography on Jay-Z, and he also wrote Three Kings that broke down Jay-Z, Dr. Dre, and Diddy's Business Moves. So he was a perfect person to have this conversation with. We talked about the highs of this record label, the lows, some of the best business moves where Jay-Z and Dame didn't see eye to eye, some of the dark horse business moves that they made.

What was the best signing from Roc-A-Fella Records? Missed opportunities and more. If you enjoy the episodes we did on Cash Money and Interscope, this one will be right up your alley and we already know what it is when we're talking about Jay, Dave, and Big. So let's dive into it. Hope you enjoy it.

[00:02:17] Dan Runcie: All right. We are back to do another breakdown on one of the most iconic record labels, the one and only Roc-A-Fella records, and I'm joined by someone who wrote the book on one of the most influential people behind this record label. Zack O'Malley Greenberg, welcome back, man.

[00:02:33] Zack Greenburg: Thanks for having me on, Dan, as always.

[00:02:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and with this one, I think it's good to start even before Roc-A-Fella records because this label was a long time coming and there were a number of things that Jay Dame and Biggs, the founders of this record label were involved before this. So set the stage. Where were we pre Roc-A-Fella launch.

[00:02:55] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, so, you know, I think a lot of people forget, although Jay-Z is a billionaire now, a couple times over, back in the early nineties, he wasn't even sure that he could make it as a rapper full-time. So, you know, he'd appeared on a couple tracks with his mentor jazz. Oh, this great Golden Age rapper. He had popped up kind of here and there, but, you know, really he was finding that it was much more lucrative to be a hustler.

And so he was increasingly making more and more trips outta town to New Jersey and Maryland and so forth doing his thing. And, you know, I think he really kind of saw music as a hobby at that point. so he, he did have, you know, a couple supporters, namely DJ Clark Kent, you know, one of these influential producers, at the time.

And, you know, Clark Kent really believed in Jay when a lot of people did it. And so he kind of kept trying to convince him to give another shot, like he could do this as an actual profession, and finally convince him to sort of take this meeting with Damon Dash. So he thought that Jay-Z was this just like once in a generation talent, from the musical side, and that Dame was sort of this promotional mastermind.

And then if the two forces kind of united, they could create something really special. So in my book, empire State of Mind, Clark Kent tells the story of how he convinced Jay and Dame to sort of meet up. And so Dame, of course is from Harlem, Jay's from Brooklyn. There's sort of like this New York City snobbery thing going on, you know, Manhattan folks kind of maybe look down sometimes on people from Brooklyn and so they get together and, Dame rolls in.

He sees Jay's wearing a pair of Air Force 1s and he is like, okay, this guy's cool, you know, he has good taste in sneakers, so I, can do business with him. and that was kind of like, you know, the initial hurdle was, you know, overcome and off it went. And so they struck up this really productive partnership together where, you know, Dame would kind of, help Jay Z sell, you know, they would go around selling CDs outta the trunks of cars and stuff like that.

they were trying to get a proper record deal. and they just didn't have, like, nobody was kinda like really into the whole jay thing at the time. And you know, if you think about the music that he was making, unreasonable Doubt, it's like very nuanced. you know, like a lot of words packed into not very many bars, you know, like the space and the rapidity of the, the flow was like kind of not what was happening at the time in the, you know, by this time like, getting toward the mid nineties.

So, basically they decided to go and start their own, and they brought in green Bigs Burke, who was kind of a silent partner, you know, another formidable hustler in his own right. And, you know, so there was the, talent, the silent partner and, you know, the promotion guy.

And you know, when their powers combined, they were Captain Planet or whatever they were Roc-A-Fella records.

[00:05:42] Dan Runcie: And I think part of the thing with Jay-Z that made this unique was his age at this point as well, because by the time they start Roc-A-Fella, he's already in his mid twenties, which doesn't sound anything unusual now, but back then, the rappers that were blowing up were always teenagers.

There were always early twenties. You think about Dr. Dre, everyone from NWA, you think about Nas when he dropped I Maddock or you look at LL Cool J. Everyone is a young cat. So for Jay to then drop his debut album when he is 26, Is an ancient man, a grandfather trying to get into this game?

[00:06:19] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, it's like a 26 year old rookie in, you know, the NBA or in baseball or something.

It's just like, you don't see it. I mean, al almost ever. And when it does happen, it's sort of like a journeyman, you know, like role player type but jay, you know, had just packed a lifetime worth of lyrics into this one album cuz he kind of viewed it as, you know, this was like a one and done, like a novelty thing.

And, you know, he really fully anticipated, you know, kind of coming up from the underworld, dropping this gem of an album and then kind of like disappearing off into the ether, like Kaiser Souzai at the individual suspects. And that, I mean, that was actually his plan. you know, according to a lot of people who I talked to around the time.

So, yeah, it was definitely not sort of the normal path, for creating an album. I mean, I think they thought that. You know, they could put out this album, it would do well and then, you know, maybe they would bring along other artists and he wouldn't have to be sort of at the forefront.

Like he might just keep doing his thing on the hustling side or whatever. but obviously things turned out a little bit differently.

[00:07:22] Dan Runcie: This album was also a bit of a slow burn from a success perspective. I know that many people now when they're debating the best Jay-Z albums, the best Roc-A-Fella albums.

This one's always mentioned as well as a few others that we'll get into. But if you look at the commercial performance for this album, in the beginning, it was not that high. The same week that it came out, the Nutty Professor soundtrack sold more records than Reasonable Doubt. And around the same time, that summer, I'm pretty sure that Shaquille O'Neill's album, cuz he was putting out albums at the time, also sold more than Reasonable Doubt did.

So extremely slow burn. And you mentioned something earlier about the hustle that I wanna tap into because this is one of the big value ads that Dame Dash had with this. He was relentless and we've all heard the stories. Many people that have met him have also seen what it's like upfront. A lot of it speaks to his success.

But he was someone who was in many ways, notorious for going to the New York radio stations and giving them gifts, understanding, yes, this essentially is payola, but this is what everyone else is doing. This is what the people with the real money in the industry are doing. So he's leading into that as well.

And you mentioned Kaiser Associates also makes me think about, there's one of the music videos that Jay had from in my Lifetime, volume one where, I forget which song it was, but the song essentially, you know, the music video essentially was a spoof, odd usual Suspects where he's impersonating the the Kevin Spacey, Kaiser Souzai character on it.

Sorry for anyone that hasn't seen Usual Suspects for the spoilers I just dropped there. But there's so many things that I think tie in with that and just stay consistent with who he is at the time.

[00:09:08] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I think that whole album, you know, the aesthetic was very like, maybe not Kaiser Soze, but, you know, sort of like gangster movie sort of thing and, you know, all the album artwork, you know, it's him and like a fedora and black and white and all that kind of thing.

and so, you know, I think that, he's been obsessed with mafia movies for like, his entire life and you don't hear it quite as much, you know, as more recent albums. But he was kind of like living this underworld life at the time. And so I think it really resonated with him and maybe in a way that, that it, it doesn't quite resonate now.

[00:09:44] Dan Runcie: And I think too that was in a lot of ways the theme that we saw he did in the nineties. You definitely saw Big Do It, especially in the whole life after death era, right before he passed. And I think there were a few moments that gave him the initial bump. Even after having Reasonable Doubt drop.

Jay himself was featured on the Nutty Professor soundtrack because he had the song with, Foxy Brown that was also on his album. And then he's on Fox's album, album a little bit later. Her debut, he's also on, what's the song that Jay oh, David Brooklyn's finest, on Jay's album.

[00:10:18] Zack Greenburg: Going back to Callie was on there. Oh my God, what an album. Yeah. But yeah, that was not, I would say Jay-Z got the better end of the collabs. with, the Brooklyn's Finest. I mean, that is a classic. Clark Kent produce that one also. And, you know, that was kind of like, that was another funny story from the book, like, you know, that there was also a bit of a friendly rival, mean, like they were, there were buds and all like, Jay and, and Big, but there was like a little bit of a friendly rivalry between, Jay and Dame and Puff and Big, because I think, you know, like, so the Whole Bad Boy thing was more established, by the time that Roc-A-Fella Records came about, and so I think Puff was kind of like Dame Dash, like another dude from Harlem, are you trying to be me? Kind of thing, you know, and so in order to make that song happen, I think before Jay and Big were friends, Clark kept kind of tricked them into recording the song together. So he was in the session with Big, and then he accidentally played a tape of a track that he had that was just an amazing track and Big was like, that's great.

I wanna get on that. and he was like, no, I'm saving it for somebody else. And things like, well, who the hell else are you saving it for? And he is like, my man, Jay, you know, he's amazing. He's a beast. and big's like, I don't who, what Jay who. and so finally like Clark Kent sort of like goded him into, unbeknownst to big, Clark Kent had arranged for like Jay and Dame to be in a car downstairs.

And he was like, oh, I think he's actually just coming in. And so he went down and he brought him up and so like Jay went in and recorded his verses, I think right then and there. And he left spaces for Big to put his verses in. and when Big went in and he listened to it, he was like, oh my God, this guy's so good.

I have to like, go home and really think about this, about what I'm gonna put in there in the spaces that he left for me. and I think after that they were really good friends. but you know, it's, that kind of like, good nature trickery, shall we say. that, you know, I think some of these circumstances happen when you got some egos in the building and, you wanna make some magic.

And, you know, as I recall, you know, for the chorus, Jay and Big had like become fast friends and, so like, they're leaving the studio and Clark's like, you know, on the final day that Biggie came and recorded or whatever, and Clark's like, what should I do for the chorus? And they're like, just scratch something.

And that, that was how it happened.

[00:12:44] Dan Runcie: Classic. And that's such a New York story, and it's also such a 90s hip hop story in terms of how the industry worked. Having someone like, oh, so-and-so's just downstairs, they're gonna come up right now because you have 'em, man, how people worked. Things classic. And it speaks to where Jay was at the time too, because as we mentioned, reasonable doubt, slow bird took a while for it to get.

The respect that it deserves. But then you go to 1997, he has, in my lifetime, and that album also Slow Burn and wasn't necessarily as highly regarded as Reasonable Doubt, but still had some songs. And you could tell that Jay was trying to navigate a few things, whether it was he had the flashy suit ever himself when he had the song Always Be My Sunshine.

He's feeling that out. I mentioned he had the Kaiser Souzai spoof music video, but it really isn't until 1998 where things start to change. So a few things happen here. The album Volume Two, Hard Knock Life comes out. That song, Hard Knock Life changes everything for the trajectory of that label, and that's when they start the partnership with Def Jam.

So let's talk about the Def Jam piece first. Can you talk a little bit about that one and break it down?

[00:13:57] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. So. As I recall, you know, in early Roc-A-Fella they had struck this, distribution deal. I think it was with priority. and you know, reasonable doubt was they had already been selling it on their own, sort of informally out of the trunks of cars.

And then priority, you know, was distributing it. But it was kind of a disaster. They weren't paying Jay on time and, or maybe at all, at some point. And so he just kind of went back to 'em and was like, you know, if you're not gonna be paying me, or paying me everything, you're not paying me on time or whatever.

Just like give my master's back and get me out of it. and somehow that's what happened. So that freed him up to be able to take this deal with Def Jam, where Def Jam bought a piece of Roc-A-Fella records. but again, you know, because they were buying a piece of it and not signing him to a deal. you know, he continued to own, you know, considerably higher portion of his own copyrights and, you know, possess more of the cash that came in than he would've otherwise. but you know, he already had the success. They already had this apparatus set up, so he had like, you know, he had leverage in a negotiation and I think, you know, even though his second album I think was kind of a dud and he would always, like, he has said in interviews that that's his worst album and the one that he'd like to have back.

you know, he had some, heat, you know, with reasonable doubt. And then kind of like coming off the heels of Biggie's death and, being sort of like the heir parent. it was tight with Puffy who produced the second album, you know, for better or worse. But, you know, I think that really gave them sort of the ability to get what they wanted at a Def Jam, which was like, I think part of the reason that first album didn't do so well, and I think it was until fairly recently, his worst selling album, until sort of the back catalog began to catch up. But, what they needed was distribution those days was really important. Like you, you needed, you know, you could have Damon Dash, like Haranging, people at rec, you know, at radio stations all you want.

But in order to really have the kind of, you know, national scale, that you need to be a superstar, at least in those days, really wanted to do with the label. So that's what they did,

[00:15:59] Dan Runcie: Right, you needed someone that could get 500,000 units to 7,000 distribution points, and there were barriers to entry in order to do that.

And yeah, to your point, I don't care how many bottles of champagne you try to give to Hot 97, that's not gonna make that happen without it, right? The thing that I always think about with this ever though, is the terms of this deal, because at least what we've seen publicly was that Def Jam had taken a 50% stake.

In Roc-A-Fella records, and it was for one and a half million dollars. And that number always stuck out to me a bit because if you look at some of the other deals that had happened in that era, you had masterpieces distribution deal that he had done with the same priority records that Roc-A-Fella had their deal with.

But Master P obviously had a much more favorable distribution deal with splits in his favor. And then similarly, that same year, 1998 Cash money, does their distribution deal with Republic Records? Of course, Def Jam is a different unit and Roc-A-Fella was in a very different place. And we know that Jay-Z had always talked about ownership and it was important to him.

But it's a interesting reflection of just where things looked at in the landscape because it's easy to look back in Jay's career in hindsight and think that, oh yeah, his first album was a classic and then Hard Knock Life comes and everything is just up and up. But there was still. hierarchy and there were other artists that were getting more favorable deals, more ownership for their music, for their record labels.

And Roc-A-Fella still got something that was somewhat favorable, but still not at the same level of some of those other people in the mid to late 90s.

[00:17:40] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, that's a really interesting point, right? I mean, Jay obviously is this brilliant businessman and, you know, Damon and bigs aren't too shabby either.

And yet it was a good deal, but it wasn't, anything like, a cash money or no limit in terms of the splits, and what they were doing. So, yeah, I mean, I think to your point, you know, those other acts, had kind of like a more established operation, you know, Jay was one guy with one album that didn't sell very well, that was kind of critically acclaimed, you know, so it was like A bit more of a risk perhaps, on Def Jams parts, they weren't really risking that much capital on them. So, you know, I mean, and I guess I wonder if that initial deal had been more favorable for Roc-A-Fella, if they had managed, to have, you know, the kind of splits that Cash Money and No Limit had might they have stayed in business together longer? You know, in a way it's like if the pie that you have or like if the one big pie, and, you know, if you're a slice of the pie that you're sharing with your two business partners is that much smaller than it is, than, you know, let's say the Williams brothers were sharing a cash money, you know, maybe you feel, a lot more restless and, inclined to go elsewhere, but we can get to that later.

[00:18:59] Dan Runcie: that's a good point too, because if Cash Money is still in business. And we know cuz we recorded that episode not too long ago, but Birdman and Slim are still getting tens of millions of dollars per year. It's essentially a cash cow asset that they have. Def Jam is still collecting for Roc-A-Fella, as is universal. And I know that Jay and Damon Bigs do have their splits, but it's not the same because they eventually did sell the other half of the record label to the parent company Def Jam. I think it was Island Def Jam at the time that that deal happened. But it changes the dynamics a lot. But with the story though, we are getting to the point where Roc-A-Fella is clearly on the way up.

And I think there were a few things coming that did set things up for them. But one thing that I think was a big difference maker for them around 1999 was them wanting to go on tour and. Have their name out there. So 1999 they have the Hard Knock Life tour and at this time it was pretty rare for, all Hip Hop Act to have a nationwide arena tour that happened because at the time they had past shows or whether it was at Run DMC shows or other things in the late 80s, early 90s, and cause of violence and because of things like that, all these promoters and all these venue operators were so scared of hip hop.

So you had Smoking Grooves and other festivals like that in the mid nineties where they always had to pair you with the R&B actor. They had to have two folks together. I know that Bad Boy had its, arena tours as well, but they always had the R&B acts that were there, so they needed to, they were really trying to do something different.

But I think this is where Dame's Magic came to life because he was able to really control the narrative and be out in front with how they were making sure that violence wouldn't happen, whether they had their own security on top of whoever was there. They had the fruit of Islam that was at each of these shows standing there to have the, bodyguards there as present.

When the reporters came into the trailers to see what they were doing on tour, there's this iconic video of Tie Tie and he has videos up and this VHS tapes up of, oh, you think we're just watching gangster flicks? No, here we got Goodwill Hunting right here. We got Brave Part, we got as good as it gets.

Like we're here watching videos like anyone else. And with that and even, I think they did something that was either, either donating money or something as well cause in Colorado, because they had a show right around the same time that the Columbine shooting had happened there. So there were a few things they'd done there.

And I think that tour in a lot of ways helped. Not just the Roc-A-Fella crew, but all the other folks that were associated with them that came along like Red and meth and Ja Rule and others. But then after that, we then saw the Up and Smoke tour. We saw Rough Riders and Cash Money go on tour. And I think that tour in a lot of ways helped propel them into that next level to continue to have a lot of that success.

[00:22:06] Zack Greenburg: Totally. And you know, and I think it wasn't necessarily reflected in the bottom line. I mean, I don't remember what the gross was, but, you know, 18 million I think. Yeah. Like Taylor Swift probably grossed that in one show at,

[00:22:20] Dan Runcie: I think he made that in two of the three nights at,

[00:22:23] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, definitely, definitely over a weekend in the Meadowlands, but yeah, she probably had definitely, let's say, definitely crushed it in her like little weekend did in the Meadowlands. But you know, and so obviously if you're grossing $18 million. You're probably only taking home, you know, 10 of that after cost, maybe like, probably more like, you know, I don't know, seven or eight. and then you're dividing that up amongst however many people. There were a lot of people on that tour for like a fair amount of tour days, so it did not work out to a lot of sort of take home pay per show, but it really kind of opened the door. I think in the aftermath of the death of Tupac, Biggie and like all of this, you know, sort of, like moral panic around hip hop and violence and all of the, you know, whatever Tipper Gore stuff, you know, that this was sort of like a reminder that like, yes, hip hop Acts can go on tour and it's gonna be fine.

And like that, you know, that had been done in the past and, run DMC and what have you. But, you know, NWA had gone on tour and, you know, had a big national tour. So there were other examples before, but I think people were like, kind of freaked out about hip hop in the national zeitgeist at the time, and this kind of really helped to kind of reset things. And, you know, opened the door for other rappers, but, you know, for Jay-Z himself down the line, you know, I mean, he's been a really prolific touring act and I think he's always been really clever, about it because, he's like, even now, like he can sell out arenas, but, you know, he's not like, I don't know, he sort of can't necessarily do, he can't sell out stadiums by himself, that's for sure. And there was a time when he couldn't sell out arenas by himself. and there's probably a time when he couldn't sell Amphitheaters by himself, but he always goes around, he brings somebody with him and he's got a really good kind of, level of self-evaluation and he's like, you know, he doesn't let his hubris get in the way of like, I can sell out whatever, whatever.

unless he knows he can, you know, he, he's very accurate in that assessment. And if he can't make it, then he just brings somebody with him. He brings Eminem with them. you know, he goes out with Beyonce for the stadium tour. So, you know, Justin Timberlake with him. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So in a way, I think that tour was kind of the beginning of that.

And, you know, how he could, see some synergies by mixing and matching with other artists

[00:24:35] Dan Runcie: And that tour too Hard Knock Life tour. He showed signs of that awareness there. There's this iconic clip when Jay-Z was on the shop a couple years ago and he's talking about the show. This was shortly after DMX had passed away and Jay-Z was going on tour in each of these nights after X and X's shows, you know, he's taken off his shirt, he's doing prayers at the end.

So you have people that are laughing, you have people that are crying, then people that are screaming and then they come out and they're like, oh, now you go like pointed to Jay-Z. And I mean, one Jay's storytelling of that is good. When we post this episode, we'll definitely share this clip in there, but two, it showed this awareness that people have spoke about of, and it's also what you're saying, even if he may not have always been the central act and another running thing that people have said over the years, what year was Jay-Z, the top guy in hip hop?

And I think that is a very debatable thing, but it's the longevity and that's the thing that speaks to it. And how he's been able to stay through that over the years. And because he was always that core piece, like we said, price is probably one of the reasons that they didn't get a no limit or a cash money type deal.

It really was just him. I think there was that one R&B album that Rocefella hadn't released in 1997, but didn't really go anywhere with that artist. So things didn't really pick up until late nineties, early two thousands. And you start to see more of the artists on Roc La Familia, and they're really able to spread their wings in that way.

[00:26:10] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, another thing to remember, at the time, you know, especially, I think it was 98, 99, that was when, you know, Def Jam. So I think Def Jam had already taken a pretty significant, institutional investor, but, they were selling the company or like maybe the remainder of the company or most of the remainder of the company.

There's this really, really big deal happening. and I forget which sort of, European entertainment conglomerate was it Bertlesman or It was like, was, something that's since been reconstituted or, or whatever. But the, the deal was gonna happen and you know, the deal was gonna be for whatever multiple of revenue, that Roc-A-Fella had or not Roc-A-Fella, that Def Jam had produced in the prior year.

And so for the, I think it was the calendar year of 1999. And so, Lyor and Russell just like leaned really hard on Jay and DMX and they were like, we need you to put out like two albums in 12 months because we're just gonna get a multiple of that. And I don't remember the exact advances that, that were given, but you know, I'm sure it was considerable.

And so, you know, they were able to put out like each of them two really killer albums in the span of like about 12 months each. which is like kind of unheard of these days, right? I mean, Jay-Z goes, is like five years between albums now and, I think that was, volume two and volume three for Jay-Z.

And I think for DMX, it's dark and.

[00:27:38] Dan Runcie: Dark as hell and hot and then flesh and my flesh blood. And then, and those were like, like, and then there was X was the third. Oh, then there was X.

[00:27:45] Zack Greenburg: That's right, that's right. So those were like, like two, like for each of them to

[00:27:49] Dan Runcie: a year and a half spare albums.

[00:27:51] Zack Greenburg: I mean, yeah, back to back, you know, man, like to have that much, sort of creative energy to do it so quickly, and to have it sell so well, I mean, it is quite a feat and you know, and they, personally enriched Russell and Lyor and Rick Rubin, like, I would say quite substantially cuz it just drove up that multiple.

And, yeah, I think a lot of people kind of forget, how critical they were, you know, to that process. But it probably also caught thinking like, Why am I working so hard to make somebody else, you know, I'm getting rich, but they're getting wealthy and, I think the gears are continuing to turn for him at that point and he's like, Hmm, how do I kind of get to be more in their position, right?

[00:28:32] Dan Runcie: Cuz I think at this time, this is when you start seeing more of the Roc-A-Fella expansions in a few ways. First Dame is already thinking about ways to extend this brand. You see Roc films, Streets is watching comes out in the late nineties and then they put out a whole documentary about the Hard Knock life tour as well.

And they start selling that as the DVD Rocawear comes out. And we're gonna do a whole episode about Rocawear eventually, but, you know, Rocawear itself. And then you also just start to see more and more product coming from Roc-A-Fella that isn't necessarily from Jay himself. And I was looking back from a timeline.

And this is one of the unfortunate things about Roc-A-Fella, we're gonna get to this, but right around the time they split, you could argue that they were just continuing to go up and up and up with the releases every year. Like this is the 12 month stretch that they had where I think they had the highest products.

Starting in February 20th, 2003, you had freeway drops, Philadelphia Freeway, Dipset Drops, diplomatic immunity. Joels has his debut album. Jay-Z drops the Black album, Memphis Bleak drops his, and then top of 2004 Ye drops College Dropout, Young Guns drops their debut. And that's all in a 12 month span.

That's some no limit cash, money level of dropping albums. And so there's so many hits and so many memorable songs that they had during that stretch.

[00:29:59] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think that if, you know, we were talking earlier about the splits and so forth, but it's like, can you imagine. If they had the kind of splits to catch money it had, when you have all those albums coming out and, you know, yeah, I think it really would've changed things.

Not only that, but you know, to own the masters of all those artists, which you probably would've in those days. you know, to have like a hundred percent or something close to it on all those artists with all those classics. you know, it would've been very hard to walk away from, you know, as they eventually ended up doing.

[00:30:33] Dan Runcie: And I think what you mentioned earlier, probably alludes to this, right? Because if there's enough of the pie to these split between the three founders and everyone else, and they're the one accruing the assets from what they have, then maybe Jay and Dame are more likely to figure out their differences in a way to make things cook because it's working for everyone.

But when you're still paying Def Jam in on top of that, or you're still paying island def jam in on top of that universal even more money, it's tough to justify that. And I think this is a good time to talk about the split. The infamous split between Jay-Z and Damon Dash. You could start to see that the two of them were going in different areas where Jay-Z was wanting to be really focused in on what he was doing from a music perspective, wanting to expand there and wanting to just do different creative things.

But Dame had his own approach, and we talked a little bit about that with, the films and the sports and other things too. But he also wanted to do things his way. He was starting to get a little bit more spotlight. And then there's that infamous clip of them at Summer Jam 2001, where Dame Dash is in his full element.

And Jay-Z's just like expressionless. And that clip is often looked at as like you knew from this moment. That these two just were necessarily gonna be at the same page because this is 2001, Jay-Z's are drop about to drop the blueprint, his masterpiece. And granted, you know, he could have just been in the zone or whatever, but it's definitely an unfortunate thing because granted, Jay-Z was able to reach further heights, but you never know what could have happened.

You just look at how much Rocawear ended up selling for you. Look at the continued success, the momentum, and I think what it boils down to is to. People that had different philosophies where it makes it tough. Jay-Z was a bit more focused on wanting to be rich. He was willing to do partnerships with others if everyone could eat and have a piece of the pie. Granted, he still wanted ownership, but as you've written about before, he has his perceptions on underdog brands and how he could move like a private equity executive and make the right investments. And even the m and a deals he's continued to do today, his live nation deal is the element of this.

But Dame was a bit more wanting to be king. He wanted to have his stamp on things. And I think you see that even now today with Dame Dash Studios, Dame Dash, this, like, it's very important for him to be able to have his kids and his other folks around him be able to work with him and be the boss, not necessarily wanting anyone to tell you what you can and can't do.

And that infamous Breakfast Club interview that they had, I think it was 2015 when he's yelling at DJ Envy and Charlemagne about, well, they gotta report to whoever at Power 105 and that's their manager, that they're not a real boss, is an element of that whole dynamic. So it's frustrating that it happened, but it's also not surprising.

[00:33:26] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Jay has kind of adjusted his views on ownership and he said recently, I mean, he's sold some of his big brands, or sold half of it into, a JV with like LVMH or you know, or whatever. And he's very much of the mind of like, well, I, you know, 50% of like a billion is a lot more than a hundred percent of, you know, a couple hundred million, and I think Dave, that's

[00:33:51] Dan Runcie: that you did with Kevin Hart, right?

[00:33:53] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly right. So, and I don't remember the exact quote, but maybe you could, maybe you guys can pull it up, but I don't think Dame really ever got that. He was always like, well, I want a hundred percent, you know, and so, you know, he ended up with a hundred percent of like, whatever, you know, seven or eight figure amount that he ended up with.

But he could have had, you know, 50% or 30% or something of like billions of many billions probably. But you know, just to kind of like, I think there was a precipitating moment that sort of like was the end of, Roc-A-Fella a s it was, a partnership between the three of them.

But it really could have been anything. it was headed that way for a couple of years. And, you know, I think what it comes down to, is that, I don't know. I mean, I think that Jay also recognized that Dame was very, very valuable. The skillset was especially valuable in the come up.

And, you know, like when you are not well known, you need somebody to go in and yell at somebody at the radio station. you know, but then when you get there, you need somebody to like not yell at certain people, you know? And, when you get to that next level, and sort of Dame, you know, didn't adjust, To that.

And, Damon was sort of Damon or wherever he was. And it was great in one situation, not great in another situation. So I think the precipitating incident was basically when, you know, after this sale, which ironically Roc-A-Fella helped, boost, you know, the Def Jam sale. There was a reshuffling of executives, which is like so complicated.

I'd have to go back to that chapter of my book to, to look at it. But the gist of it was the role of president at Def Jam, opened up and, it was offered to Jay-Z. And so, you know, Jay-Z, this is something that he had sort of, it's this like great prestige job. something that he'd always been wanting.

And I don't think he wanted it, like, this is my dream job that I've always wanted. As much as it was like, if I can do this, be a CEO, this opens the door to so many other things. And it will really sort of entrench me as not being pigeonholed as an artist. And, it was a no-brainer and of course there was no way to do this without, stepping on Dame's toes.

So, you know, there's this whole great drama, and I think, you know, the wheels started turning when Jay-Z was, you know, on, on a yacht in the south of France with like Beyonce and Jimmy Iovine and Bono or something and, kicking it. And, you know, there's some executives there. Some conversations were had, I think at the same time back home, Dame, like elevated camera on to VP level at Roc-A-Fella without consulting Jay.

And it was this kind of like big scandal and when Jay-Z came home, he was like, no. And he kind of demoted him. So there was some awkwardness there. but you know, I think then that Jay kinda like accelerated his, push toward this CEO role, and when he got it, it's like, all right, you know, sorry Dave, I'm your boss now.

I mean, because of course Def Jam was, but Roc-A-Fella, there was really. There was no way for it not to be structured like that. so, you know, when that went down, of course, like Dame immediately, you know, quit or left or whatever, and, there was a hot minute where he started the Damon Dash Music group within Universal, but, you know, then he kind of like kept doing the same thing and kind of yelling at the wrong people.

And, and so that didn't really go anywhere. And, you know, the thing kind of fizzled out and Jay offered to, I think he wanted to give, at the time, he wanted to give, Biggs and Dame, like all of his preexisting masters in exchange for exclusive ownership of Reasonable Doubt. they said no. but of course, you know, I don't know that the Black album had gotten as big, is it?

You know, I hadn't like really fully blossomed into what it, what it ultimately was at that time. And there's like all this other, so anyway, I mean, there's a lot of like trades being offered and you know, people sort of like, you know, it's like the guy in your family in football league, your fantasy baseball league.

You kinda like overvalue his own players. Think I've made this analogy before, but, dude, come on. Like, you know, you're running back, just got injured and offering you my extra running back for this wide receiver who you're not even music anyway. it didn't really work out.

Everybody got all pissed on each other, you know, at the end there's bad blood. so th there's this great moment that Dame talks about how, shortly after all this went down and they're like in the elevator at, I guess the Universal Museum, that Def Jam was housed in. and Roc-A-Fella had been housed in or something.

And they're like bumping each other in the elevator and Dame is wearing a state property shirt and Jay C's like in the suit. And Dame's like, man, you know, things are really different now. Like, dude, you changed, you know? so, you know, I don't know if Jay changed so much as like Dame didn't change, you know?

you could argue the problem was that Jay changed, but you could also argue that problem is that, that Dame didn't. And, you know, I mean, to some extent like power to him, you know, be you. but Jay, you know, in the way that I think you know, he's constantly changing. He's restless, he's always, everything is a chessboard.

He's always evolving, you know, I think ultimately there was no way to stay locked into a partnership with someone who wasn't kind of willing to change with them.

[00:38:59] Dan Runcie: One thing you mentioned there made me think about how they think about things and where they are from a strategic perspective, Dame is very much your early stage startup guy.

He's great for the pre-seed era. He's great for when you're even in the seed stage, maybe even series A, but once you get to that series B, C, you're starting to get some higher level executives. You're getting more talent, you're gone to bigger things. You can't operate the same way and no different. How those organizations often need to rotate and think about leadership.

That's essentially what in many ways was the opportunity there at Roc-A-Fella. And there's nothing wrong with being very successful at that pre precede seed stage. I don't think Roc-A-Fella would've got to that point if it weren't for Dame hustling in many absolutely ways, whether it was on tour radio, and I think a lot of his success traits have been carried through and things we've seen celebrated and leaders in tech and people that do things that don't scale that very much is Dame Dash. That next level, though, is where things did get a little bit tough because the label's clearly getting ready to go to that next level, and they just had their tensions there.

The thing that was unique though, about their tensions is that the artists themselves that were on Roc-A-Fellas started picking sides in terms of who they wanted to be with, who they were gonna side with, Jay versus Dame, and as you mentioned, Dame was the one that had elevated Cameron, who was the leader of Dipset at the time, to that VP level.

That then brings everyone from dipset under his umbrella, but Ye, who had just dropped the college dropout and he was the one that was always trying to make it. He then signs with Jay, he also has a very memorable interview on the Breakfast Club where they asked him about this, and Ye was the one that was like, me and Dame we're the same. We think the same. This is how we act and go about things but I could learn more from Jay. He knows how to talk to people and he uses Jay's iconic lines. He's like, Jay knows how to move in a room full of vultures. That's just how he is and sometimes I be talking and saying the wrong things, which is a very ironic thing.

I don't know if Kanye himself would admit that now, cuz that very much is a self-serving prophecy. I do think that there's a lot of truth in that, and just how things ended up shaking out for both of them. You saw the moves that everyone continued to make, and even though ye has definitely been quite polarizing in the public spotlight, a lot of the moves that he continued to make, whether it was with Yeezy or with the partnerships he's had, I do think stemmed from how he looked up to his own big brother in Jay.

[00:41:42] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And he could have easily gone with Dame, right? I mean, you know, Jay wasn't so great to him early. Jay didn't believe in him as a rapper, he kind of wanted to keep him as a producer and Dame was, I think, the one who really advocated for Kanye as a rapper. but you know, I think Kanye, in his, you know, like more self-aware moments can say things like, oh, I think I could learn more from Jay.

He brings something to table that I don't have, for Dame, I think the difference between Dame and Kanye is that they're very similar, in a lot of ways. But Dame isn't an artist. like, let's say a generationally talented artist. And so people will not put up with you if you're an executive. And you bring along those headaches in the way that they would put along, put up with you if you're a generational artist and you bring those headaches. And I think that was sort of like also, something that did Damon. And you know, in a way I think Damon Puff had a lot in common like they can just go in and kind of bulldoze their way into something.

but Puff has that, that like other level where he can sort of like turn it up and down and, you know, to fit the situation. and is like more of a chameleon than Dame is. And Dame's just kind of dame all the time. so, you know, those are sort of the, personalized to play. But you know, like one person who gets lost in the shuffle here is Cameron.

And because that was sort of the prime of his career that got like, entangled in this sort of higher level beef. but you know, you think about that album, come home with me and Hey man, like, I mean, Cam was really on fire, going into this whole situation. And then he got kind of like, I don't say like exactly lost in the shuffle, but almost lost in the shuffle.

You know? and you just kind of wonder how his career would've gone, you know, let's say if, sort of he hadn't been like Dame's guy, you know, if what if he had gone to Def Jam? You know, what would that have looked like? could he have been on the level of somebody who signed? You know, like, I don't know.

I mean, around that time, I think, Rick Ross signed a Def Jam, was it?

[00:43:41] Dan Runcie: Ross, Jeezy, yeah.

[00:43:43] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, like, you know, I think certainly has, you know, comparable ability, Tyler and those guys and, you know, I think both of them went on to have, You know, sort of like more longevity. but like, you know, I think, some of the Dipset classics and some of the solo stuff too, I mean, it's pretty unbeatable.

So, you know, I just wonder, he's had a really good career, either way. But like, you know, I don't know that he ever like, broke through that next level, consistently, you know, to the point where he could just kind of stay there indefinitely. And, I wonder if he might have, if things had kind of gone differently in the Jay-Dame scenario,

[00:44:21] Dan Runcie: The man had men wearing pink. He started his own fashion. Yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah, that's true. Unbelievable. With that, I think it's a good chance to hit through some of these categories, cuz I think you're jogging my memory the few things here. what do you think is the best signing that happened under Roc-A-Fella?

[00:44:39] Zack Greenburg: Well, I guess you can't count Jay if he, you know, co-founded Right Label.

But, you know, I'd say probably Kanye. it's hard to top that. And when, you know, when you think about those first few albums, you know, I mean, he brought an element into hip hop, into the mainstream that just wasn't there. and, you know, I don't think, you know, if you hadn't had Kanye, in the pink polo, and you know, talking about his feelings, like, I don't know if you get Drake right.

I think that he kind of changed the discourse. he brought hiphop to the mainstream and then he also like brought a different sort of voice to hiphop, And it was fantastically lucrative, obviously, for everybody involved. So, yeah, I agree with Kanye, for sure.

[00:45:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah, agreed. And then just given the longevity there, even into the early 2010s, still putting out records under the Roc-A-Fella Records umbrella that still went back to them.

And longevity that lasted longer than most of the people that were assigned to that label. So I think it has to be him. Best Business Move made, I know we talked about a few of them, but what do you think is the best business move that to come from the Roc-A-Fella era?

[00:45:47] Zack Greenburg: Hmm. I mean, it's funny now that we look at it, I mean, in a way, know, the deal itself that set up Roc-A-Fella was not, you know, it wasn't a bad deal, but it was not the best, move.

It wasn't the best kind of financial arrangement. you know, I mean, Rocawear is kind of an offshoot. Maybe that's cheating, but I'm gonna go with Rocawear because I think in some ways they're like, well, we can't get a hundred percent of the money on this thing, so we're gonna create an adjacent brand that's like very clearly associated with it that we can really monetize fully.

And you know, I mean they got paid, I mean that, that company was doing hundreds of millions in revenue and they sold it for hundreds of millions. So, you know, I think they made more off of Roca wear, than they ever made off of Roc-A-Fella. So I'll go with Rocawear, we can talk more about it when we do the full Roca too.

[00:46:36] Dan Runcie: I know. Yeah. I'd Rocawear as well. I won't go into the company itself cuz Yeah. We'll get into that in the next one. But I do think the good thing about that was it was a precursor to how artists now are thinking about their own revenue, their own business models, right? How they're using streaming, how they're using anything else that gives them a platform.

Use that to grow your audience, use that to grow the awareness while generating money for that, establish the base. So some of those other business units were likely more influential, thinking about them doing the deals with Def Jam and then them having the hard knock life tour. But I do think Rocawear was the best business thing to come through there for sure.

[00:47:18] Zack Greenburg: And just a s like a subset of that. I think the philosophy that was embodied by Roca wear, you know, the idea of like, they wanted to go Roca wear started because they wanted to go. there, there was this Italian, knitwear brand. iceberg. And they like went to the iceberg offices and said, Hey, can you give us some free t-shirts or something for wrapping about your thing?

And they're like, or no, I think they wanted an endorsement deal. They wanted some cash for an endorsement. and then the executives were like, we'll give you some free t-shirts. And, Dave was like, this is stupid. Let's go start our own thing. So, but I think that was really the beginning of, you know, like, I'm not gonna give, free publicity to other brands.

I'm just gonna go start my own thing and rap about it. Like other rappers have done it. But, it became so pervasive for Jay-Z's mindset. It wasn't just like, I'm gonna do my own clothing line and I'm sorry, I'm gonna do my own champagne. I'm gonna do my own cognac. I'm gonna try to do my own car.

I'm gonna try to do like a freaking video game, you know, he was involved in so many things that kind of sprung from that. so I think the implications were much broader than just, the clothing aspect.

[00:48:28] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Next one here is the dark horse business move. So one that we actually haven't talked about, but I do think is one that Roc-A-Fella definitely lead into was the Jay-Z and Nas beef.

The controversy that this was able to stem and start, I briefly mentioned Summer Jam 2001, but everything from then and just the drama from there, the two of them back and forth, Jay drop in takeover that, NAS drop in Ether, that whole back and forth was able to then create so much interest. They had all those beef DVDs that were g blowing up in the two thousands, I think largely came up cause of how they were able to reignite beef from essentially the biggest beef that hip hop had seen since Biggie and Tupac several years earlier.

Yeah, it was huge and the level of. Bars that I think we're able to get the songs they're able to get back and forth. Just the impressiveness of Nas essentially taking on this whole entire unit by himself. People can debate whether or not who won and lost, whether you're looking specifically from a battle perspective versus who won in the long term.

But we eventually see them come together on American gangster and they continue this f familiar relationship ever since. But I do think that this was the height of the time to really sell controversy. Obviously we saw 50 cent and others continue to do that too, you know, their own, putting their own flavor on as well.

But I do think that Jay-Z and Nas Beef still was one of the little crown jewels that they had with this.

[00:50:05] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And, you could tell that it was like there was real enmity there. but also, you know, the fact that it, it never turned violent, I think was just. I think it was really good for hip hop, and I don't think it was ever going to turn violent, but I think again, there was just this kind of like national paranoia around hip hop and, there is, you know, in waves.

I think it was just a, good reminder that you can have like a spirited dispute and, it's okay and it's entertainment, you know? and it's, nothing that anybody needs to be afraid of. So, you know, of course like credit to Jay and Nas for resolving it amicably, but man, you know, like just being in New York and that time and like the Barbs going back and forth and man, I think that's the only time that, like a beef has gotten so nasty that, a rapper's mother has like, made him basically apologized for saying something mean, which, I think that was Jay-Z's response to Ether. I think Ether was sort of like the pinnacle of it and Jay-Z's response to it was like, not quite as good, like, how do you top ether? but I think Jay-Z's was just like, viscerally, like, you know, won't get too deep into it because if, Jay-Z had to like, call in to apologize for it, you know, I dunno if we can even talk about it on a podcast.

But yeah, I mean just, to have that end, you know, like very amicably I think was just so good for everybody involved. And then, you know, I think it's really fun to watch, Jay and Nas as their relationship has evolved. And, you know, Nas was sort of always like the one who was sort of behind, when it came to the business of things.

and then, you know, like he really was music first all the time. And, you know, I think some people thought that he would never really kind of blossom as a businessman, but then, you know, he became sort of the leader, within hip hop entering the venture capital world and, you know, created this great, Queensbridge Venture partners and, you know, invested early and just about every startup you can name and has had all kinds of fantastic exits.

And, you know, I think it's so funny that Jay-Z then started MVP, you know, Marcy. So it, it's like definitely like a nod to Nas, you know, each of them naming their venture fund after the project where they grew up. So, I think that's super cool. And, you know, they still like drop these little subliminal, I don't know, like references, where you could tell they're kind of like tweaking each other, just like.

You know, like sibling rivalry kind of thing. which is I think, really fun to watch. And, you know, I think that there's some friendly competition around deals and so forth these days. But it's just, it's so fascinating to like, watch the evolution from this real knockdown, drag out, very personal beef, that occurred, you know, to now like, sort of like comparing deal flow.

And I think it speaks very positively toward like, the evolution of the business of hip hop.

[00:53:03] Dan Runcie: Definitely. You think about things that they wrapped about in their most recent, songs that have been popular, right? Like Nas's song where he calls himself Cryptocurrency Scarface, or Yeah, yeah.

Jay-Z. what was that line in God did with Khali where he is like, oh, we had cap tables, not that cap table, or something like that. I mean, he's clearly leading into that stuff. What do you think is the missed opportunity if of any, from Roc-A-Fella besides the split, cause I know we've talked about that, but there any other missed opportunities, especially from that 96 to 03, 04 range?

[00:53:37] Zack Greenburg: I think it's Armadale Armadale, like, and you know, that kind of came to be, I think of anybody that was more Biggs's pet project, than Jay or Dame. Although, you know, Jay was kind of trying to make it happen. He would, he had it. If you recalled the MTV Unplugged album, which as actually might be my favorite Jay-Z album of all time. It's kind of cheating cause it's not a studio album, but, it's so good. He's backed up by the race anyway. He's like, some point he's like, I need to stop for some Armadale. I need an army break, you know, he was really trying to shout it out everywhere he could. But already when they started doing that, you know, they were on the outs I think.

And, I think Jay-Z wasn't fully invested in it because why would he get fully invested in it? And then another thing that he was partners with Bigs and Damon, I don't think anything against Bigs, obviously. And I think they're totally cool now. And they've, been doing some stuff together more recently.

but like, why would he go do that when he could just wait and then do something on his own? But, you know, I mean, Armadale could have been cRoc, right? if they'd done it right, there's no reason that it couldn't have been. I mean, it's the same formula. It's like European unknown, whatever.

And then, you know, put it in videos, put it in songs, and, you make it, you know, whatever it's gonna be. And you know, we've seen what Jay has done with Deuce and Armando Biac, so we know he can do it. It's not only Puff who can do it, only a few people who can do it. Levelly can do it, but like Jay and Puff can do it and done it. And Jay could have done it with Armadale, just, you know, At the timing just didn't quite work out.

[00:55:03] Dan Runcie: I think Armadale had one memorable shout out from the Jay-Z song. It was, excuse me, miss, right where he is talking about Armadale popping off. but that's also the same song. I think he gave Cristal a pretty big shout out there where he is like, it's not Cristal, it's Cristal, right? But then a couple years later, he is like, no like obviously we're done with Cristal because of, you know, comments, racist comments that the founder or the CEO had said at the time, my missed opportunity is one that highlights something that I think Jay-Z did well, but it probably could have done more of.

And that's movie soundtracks. If you ask certain Jay-Z fans, I do think that they have American gangster as one of their top Jay-Z albums, as they should. It's a great album. I honestly think the album's probably even better than that movie is in particular points. But Jay-Z, so that movie, that soundtrack comes out 2007.

He missed, I think an entire wave of times when movie soundtracks, in my opinion, were even, were just bigger deals than they are by even 2007 and even later on. And now I think it's very hit or miss that you could even get a soundtrack to that level. But especially during the Roc era. And I know that he had songs that were popular on the, but really being the mc behind an entire soundtrack in that type of way, I think could have been there probably could have been more opportunities to do something like that earlier on.

[00:56:26] Zack Greenburg: Oh, I like that's a really deep cut.

[00:56:28] Dan Runcie: So a few more things here on Roc-A-Fella, Well, we've seen just continued spats back and forth. Not necessarily jabs, but just comments back and forth between Jay and Dame. It's been nearly 20 years since this split. We've definitely seen more from Dame than Jay, and it's one of those things where it does become a bit sad to see and frustrating to see at times and not be expecting to be best of friends.

We have seen Jay-Z say things that are quite complimentary. When he got inducted into the Roc and Roll Hall of Fame, he did shout out both him and Biggs and say, Hey, this wouldn't have happened without either of you, regardless of what had happened, you know, in our past. Gotta give you guys both shouts for that.

But then we've also seen Dame say things during the years, and I think he's. Alternated on whether or not he's wanted to speak on them and stuff. But it's one of these things that is a bit frustrating to see because I think about it when I think about NBA players and how they've had issues over the years.

Kobe and Shaq, of course, infamously, they continue to talk about each other for years and then eventually they came and they had that sit down chat on TBS, right? Where they're talking back and forth. If they and Dame ever did something like that, they don't even have to go do it on some platform. They could do it on their own thing.

It would be box office. It would be great to be able to see that and just see how, then hear them talk things out. Because even another NBA thing, Kevin Garnet and Ray Allen of course said, had their infamous dispute because Ray Allen went to go join the Miami Heat. Kevin Garnet, very intense, hated that that was their rival.

But then after Ray Allen had walked past him at the 75th anniversary thing last year, that's when KG was like, okay, what if Ray Allen passes the same way, passes away the same way that Kobe Bryant did? I would, yeah, be very upset with myself if that ever happened. So it's like, Hey, you guys are both in your 50s now.

You never know what can happen. We're seeing a lot of artists and a lot of entertainers that we love that are around the same age as Jay and Dame have unfortunate health scares. If there's a way that, not even that it needs to be public just for our consumption, but if there's a way to see them ever rekindle things at that perspective, that would be nice to see, at least in a public way.

[00:58:44] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, I think it'd be great. I just don't know. I just don't know that it would happen, you know? I mean, I think that Jay has so fully moved on. I just don't know if, he would do it. and I think just sort of like the nature of Dame, is to sort of like want the spotlight and I think James just kind of like wouldn't want to deal with that, you know?

I think Dame would want to come into it with sort of like equal billing and it kind of goes back to a strategy that Jay has had, throughout his career, which is like, you know, I think he learned this when he had the lion. I'm about a dollar, what the fuck is 50 cent? And that was like when nobody knew 50 cent was, and it kind of catapulted him into the conversation even though within hip hop Dash is obviously.

You know, really well known and, let's say highly respected by some, maybe infamous to others, but, you know, he's definitely a known quantity. I think in the national conversation, Damon Dash is not known. And I think that now that Jay-Z is in this sort of international phase of his, you know, of his career, like that same philosophy might apply.

Like, I don't want to sort of like give free publicity to somebody, you know, for no reason. So, you know, I don't know. I mean, maybe if you were in some kind of legacy burnishing mode and like, you know, mending fences or something like that, but it might have to come down to some kind of like, somebody has a health issue situation, you know, for it to really like resolve it in that way.

And I just don't know, like again, in terms of it being, you know, like box office, I mean, it would be great versus, you know, yeah. but I don't know that people would tune in for like a Jay-Dame special or something like that. And I don't know that Jay, that's what Jay would want for his brand. I think, you know, Jay-Z wants to be like Jay and Bill Gates do a one-on-one sit down.

Like he, I don't think he wants to like, go back to that period of his life.

[01:00:46] Dan Runcie: I think that's fair because I think that's a good clarification because it would almost be like, it, maybe it would be less like the Kobe and Shaq thing would almost be more like Jordan and Pippen, where like Pippen is the one that's saying like, wild shit about Michael Jordan. Yes. And Michael Jordan's like, I'm in rooms right now considering selling my stake in the Charlotte Hornets for Yeah. Hundreds of millions of dollars right now, maybe even billions at this point. Yeah. So I think to your point, it likely is something that would mean a lot to people within hip hop, but not necessarily at this level where, you know, it's not like both of these people were clearly at doing the same thing.

They were complimentary, but one was the artist. And the artist is always gonna have a bit of that poll there. So, yeah. And I guess we close things out, as we do with these case study breakdown episodes, we always break down who won the most from this record label in this era. Jay-Z's the obvious answer, but if we were to take Jay-Z out of the equation, who do we think is the person that won most from Roc-A-Fella records?

[01:01:50] Zack Greenburg: Well, I mean, you know, I would almost argue that Dame was the big winner, over Jay, because Jay has gone on to do all these other things. And granted, like if he hadn't gotten to start and Dame hadn't been sort of like the early stage VC for him, You know, would he have, finally made it? I kind of think he eventually would've made it anyway.

and I think that, you know, the Roc-A-Fella years were the peak of Dame's career. and, you know, he will always be, known in some circles and, you know, and revered in some circles for his role there. you know, in a way that every, you know, I'd say nothing he's done since, has sort of done for him if that makes any sense.

[01:02:35] Dan Runcie: I get that. I followed that logic. My answer is Kanye and I think we talked about this a little bit, but I just. Because I think the core piece of the question is, where would this person have been without Roc-A-Fella records, right? I feel like Jay, or I feel like Dame probably would've found someone, probably even another artist in Harlem to attach his way to, I don't think there was anything stopping him in the late nineties era for doing what he eventually did.

 He could have teamed up with Irv Gotti and done it with Murder Inc. I think he could have like, done it with a few of these other groups potentially. But would ye have been in the same situation if it weren't for Roc-A-Fella? I think he clearly is talented, but I think he needed a little bit more of the stars aligning in the right way for him to have had the career path.

Interesting.

[01:03:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think, you know, specifically what he was selling, you know, nobody was buying at the time, right? Like and it took someone with street cred. someone like Dame, someone like Jay to take a chance on him and elevate him and sort of into the national conversation that then, you know, allowed there to be sort of more demand for it, and, for people to really get invested in it.

So, yeah, I mean, I think kind of would've figured something out, but, you know, I really do wonder, I mean, he might've just gone a totally different group, you know, like he might've just been, like unknown in hiphop circles, but gone and done something totally different in, you know, in fashion circles and maybe become known, in hiphop circles, only in the way that somebody like Virgil Ablo became known.

[01:04:02] Dan Runcie: Right. Or almost like a Jane d or someone like that. Mm-hmm. You have to be in it, and then you're like, do you hear the brilliance of the music that this person produced?

[01:04:09] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a really good point. So it could have been a very different path for him too. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. It's a good one.

[01:04:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Well, I know we could talk for another hour about Roc-A-Fella itself

[01:05:14] Zack Greenburg: All right. Very good. Thanks again, Dan.

[01:05:16] Dan Runcie: You too, Zach. Thanks, man.

[01:05:17] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead.

Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 3975 no The State of Music (with Will Page) https://www.trapital.com/podcast Will Page returns to the show for a “state of the industry” episode. In last year’s appearance he correctly called out the slowdown in streaming subscriptions, bubbles in web3, and more. Will believes the value of copyrighted music could hit $45 billion annually when the 2022 numbers are calculated — up $5 billion from 2021, which is already an all-time high for the industry.   Another massive shift is glocalisation”: the trend of local music dominating the domestic charts, as opposed to Western artists. This phenomenon isn’t just being felt in music, but across every industry, from film to education. We covered both these trends, plus many more. Here’s all our talking points:  1:33 Why the music industry is actually worth $40+ billion annually 7:03 Physical music sales on the up and up 10:47 How publisher and labels split up copyright value 16:59 The rise of “glocalisation” will impact every industry 34:39 DSP carnivores vs. herbivores  40:23 Why video vs. music streaming isn’t a perfect comparison  46:31 Music as a premium offering in the marketplace  51:38 How to improve streaming royalties   1:06:05 AI music benefits that goes overlooked  1:10:07 Will’s latest mix pays homage to Carole King Glocalisation report:  https://www.lse.ac.uk/european-institute/Assets/Documents/LEQS-Discussion-Papers/EIQPaper182.pdf Will Page's 2023 Believe in Humanity: https://www.mixcloud.com/willpagesnc/2023-believe-in-humanity/ Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Will Page, @willpageauthor This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Will Page: I put so much emotional time and effort into making these mixes happen and going out for free. They get your DJ slots, but more importantly, it goes back to what makes me wanna work in music, which was a lyric from Mike G and the Jungle Brothers from that famous album done by the forties of Nature, where he said, it's about getting the music across. It's about getting the message across. It's about getting it across without crossing over. How can I get art across an audience without delegating its integrity? And it's such an honor to have this mixed drop in this Friday I mean, that's, made my year and we're not even into June yet. [00:00:30] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:56] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is all about the state of the music industry, and we're joined by the One and Only, Will Page. He is a fellow at the London School of Economics. He's an author of Tarzan Economics and Pivot, and he is the former chief economist at Spotify. Will's second time on the podcast. Now, the first time we talked all about the future of streaming and where things are going in music, and we picked that conversation, backed up. We talked about a bunch of trends including the glocalisation of music, which is from a new report that Will had recently put out. We also talked about why he values the music industry to be close to a 40 billion industry, which is much higher than a lot of the reports about recorded music itself. And we also talk about a bunch of the topics that are happening right now, whether it's ai, how streaming should be priced, the dynamic between record labels and streaming services, and a whole lot more love. This conversation will always brings it with these conversations, so I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's our chat. [00:02:00] Dan Runcie: All right, today we have the one and only Will Page with us who is recording from a beautiful location. I don't know if you're listening to the pod you can't see, but will tell us where you are right now. [00:02:09] Will Page: So great to be back like a boomerang on Trapital. Dan, and I'm coming to you from the Platoon Studios. Part of the Apple Company Platoon is our label services company, which is owned by Apple. They're doing great stuff with the artists like Amapiano music from South Africa. And the best place I can describe to you here, it's like a Tardus. Have you've ever seen Dr. Who? There's a tiny door in this tall yard music complex in North London just behind Kings Cross. When you enter that tiny door, you enter this maze of the well class spatial audio recording studios of Apple. And it's an honor they've given me this location to come to Trapital today. [00:02:41] Dan Runcie: Well we're gonna make the best of it here and it's always great to have you on, cuz Last year, last year's episode felt like a state of the industry episode, and that's where I wanna start things off this year with this episode. A couple months ago, you put out your post in your Tarzan economics where you said that this industry is not a 2020 5 billion industry, the way others say. Mm-hmm. You say, no, this is almost a 40 billion industry. So let's break it down. How did you arrive there and what's the backstory? [00:03:12] Will Page: I get goosebumps when you say that you think like 10 years ago we were talking about a 14 billion business and now it's a 40, you know, skews a slurred Scottish pronunciation, but let's just be clear from one four to four zero, how did that happen? Well the origins of that work, and you've been a great champion of it, Dan, is for me to go into a cave around about October, November and calculate the global value of copyright and copyright is not just what the record labels publish, that famous IFPIGMR report that everyone refers to, but it's what collecting studies like ask F and BMI collect what publishers generates through direct licensing. You have to add A plus B plus C labels, plus collecting societies plus publishers together. Then the complex part, ripping out the double counting and doing all the add-backs, and you get to this figure of 39.6 billion, which as you say, you round it up, it begins with a four. And I think there's a few things that we can kind of get into on this front. I think firstly we should discuss the figure. I'll you a few insights there. Secondly, I think we should discuss the division. And then thirdly, I want to cover the physical aspect as well. So if you think about the figure, we've got 39.6 billion. We know it's growing. I think what's gonna be interesting when I go back into that cave later this year to redo that number, it's gonna be a lot bigger. Dan, I'll see it here on Trapital First. I think a 40 billion business in 2021 is gonna be closer to a 45 billion business in 2022. And one of the reasons why it's not labels and streaming, it's a combination of publishers are reporting record collections, essentially they're playing catch up with labels, booking deals that perhaps labels booked a year earlier. And collecting studies are gonna get back to normal after all the damage of the pandemic. And when you drive those factors in where you have a much bigger business than we had before. So for the people listening to your podcast who are investing in copyright, this party's got a waiter run. You know, don't jump off the train yet cause this thing is growing [00:05:18] Dan Runcie: And the piece I want to talk about there is the publishing side of this. If you look at the breakdown of the numbers you have, the publishing is nearly, publishing plus is nearly 13 billion itself. The major record labels own most of the largest publishers right now. Why isn't this number just automatically included? Wouldn't it be in everyone's advantage to include the fact that yes, Universal Music Group and Universal Music Publishing Group are together, part of the entity that make this, whether it's them, it's Warner Chapel, it's others. Why isn't this just the top line number that's shared in all of the other reports? [00:05:56] Will Page: It would be nice if it was, and indeed, I think the publishing industry around about 2001 used to do this. They haven't done it since. But it's like spaghetti. It's the best way I can describe it. I mean, how do you measure publisher income? You know, is it gross receipts by the publisher? Is it the publisher plus the collecting Saudi? That is money that went straight to the songwriter and didn't touch the publisher. So what the publisher holds onto what we call an industry, a net publisher, shares all these weird ways of measuring this industry that we have to be clear on. And it's, not easy. but I think what we do in the report is we try and make it bite size. We try and make it digestible to work out how much of that publisher's business came through, CMOs, the S gaps and BMIs this X over here PS music and how much do they bring in directly? And that allows you to understand a couple of things. Firstly, how do they compare vi to vis labels in terms of their overall income? And secondly, how do they compare when they go out to market directly, let's say putting a sync and a TV commercial or movie versus generating money through collective licensing that is radio or TV via ASCAP or bmr. So you get an interpretation of how these publishers are making those numbers work as well. [00:07:03] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And then when we are able to break it down, we see a few numbers that roll up into it. So from a high level, at least what you shared from 2021, we have that 25.8 billion number from the recorded side. So that does fall in line with what we see from what the IPIs and others share. 10 billion Sure. From the publishing. And then you do have, the next 3.5 and then a little sliver there for royalty free and for the publishers' direct revenue that doesn't come from the songwriters. The next piece though, within the elements of how all of the revenue flows into that. We've talked a lot about streaming and we've talked, we'll get into streaming in a little bit, but I wanna talk about the physical side cause that was the second piece that you mentioned. We've all talked about vinyl, but it's not just vinyl. So could you talk a bit about where the trends are right now with physical sales and why this is such a huge factor for this number? [00:07:56] Will Page: Who would've thought on a Trapital podcast in May, 2023. We'll be talking about physical as a second topic on the agenda, but it's worth it. I mean, it's not a rounding era anymore. It's not chump change. in America, physical revenues largely vinyl outpaced the growth of streaming for the second year straight. It's not as big as streaming, but it's growing faster and it has been growing faster for two years now. That's crazy. Here in the uk the value of physical revenues to the UK music industry has overtaken the value of physical to Germany. Quick bit of history. For years, decades, Germans used to buy CDs. that's fallen off a cliff. They've given up on CDs. Whereas over here in Britain, we've all started buying vinyl again. So the value of vinyl in Britain is worth more than the value of CDs to Germans, that type of stuff you didn't expect to see. And if you go out to Asia, you see the CD market still strong. You've still got people who buy more than one copy of the same cd, of the same band. Don't ask me to explain the rationale for that, but it happens and it moves numbers. But after all this, when the dust settles, I mean a couple of observations, all the data to me is suggesting that 55, 60% of vinyl buyers don't actually own a record player. So I think it was Peter Drucker who said, the seller really knows what they're selling, and I don't think you're selling intellectual property or music cop right here. What we're actually selling is merchandise, you know, Taylor Swift, I got an email from Taylor Swift team saying they've got a marble blue vinyl coming out this week. Now we're talking about vinyl in the same way we used to talk about stone wash jeans, marble blue. This is like the fourth version of the same 11 songs priced at 29 99. Let's just figure that out for a second. I'm willing to give you 10 bucks a month to, access a hundred million songs on streaming services, but I'm also, it's the same person. I'm also willing to give you 30 bucks to buy just 10 of them. This is expensive music and I might not even be listening to it cause I don't even have a record player. [00:09:55] Dan Runcie: This is the fascinating piece about how we're calculating this stuff because the vinyl sales and all of that has been reported widely as a great boom to the industry and it has been. We've seen the numbers and in a lot of ways it brings people back to the era of being able to sell the hard copy of the thing itself, but it's much closer to selling a t-shirt or selling a sweatshirt or selling some type of concert merchant. It actually is the actual physical medium itself. So it'll be fascinating to see how that continues to evolve, how that embraces as well. On your side though, as a personal listener, do you buy any vinyls yourself that you don't listen to, that you just keep on display or? [00:10:34] Will Page: It's like your shoe collection, isn't it? Yes, right. Is the answer to that. But no, I mean, I will say that I got 3000 fi funk records in the house and they're all in alphabetical chronological order. So if they haven't been listened to, at least I know where to find them. [00:10:48] Dan Runcie: That's fair. That makes sense. So let's talk about the third piece of this, and that's the division of this. So you have the B2C side and you have the B2B side. Can we dig into that? [00:10:59] Will Page: Sure. this is, I think the backdrop for a lot more of the sort of thorny conversations happening in the music industry is now, you may have heard that in the UK we've had a three year long government inquiry into our business. We had the regulator turn over the coals, and so there's a lot of interest in how you split up this 40 billion dollar piece of pie. who gets what? And the division I'm gonna talk about here is labels an artist on one side. Songwriters and publishers on the other side as it currently stands, I would keep it simple and say two thirds of that 40 billion dollars goes to the record label and the artist, one third goes to the publisher and the songwriter. Now, when I first did this exercise back in 2014, it was pretty much 50 50, and when you see things which are not 50 50 in life, you're entitled to say, is that fair? Is it fair that when a streaming service pays a record label a dollar, it pays the publisher and the songwriter around 29 cents? If you're a publisher, a songwriter, you might say, that's unfair, cuz I'm getting less than them. I have preferences, issues, and I have any issues with this division. Well, let's flip it around. If you look at how B2B world works, licensing at the wholesale level, let's say you're licensing the bbc, for example, if your song's played on the bbc, you're gonna get 150 pounds for a play. 90 pounds goes to the songwriter and the publisher, 60 pounds goes to the artist and a record label. Now, is that fair? Why does the publisher win in the B2B market? By the record, label wins in the B2C market. And the one, the lesson I want to give your listeners is one from economics, and it's rarely taught university these days, but back in 1938, 1939, in a small Polish town called la. Now part of the Ukraine, ironically, free Polish mathematicians sat in a place called a Scottish Cafe, ironic for me, and invented a concept called Fair Division. And the question they posed was, let's imagine there's a cake and there's two people looking at that cake getting hungry. There's Dan Runcie over in the Bay Area and there's Will page back in Edinburgh. What's the best way to divide that cake up? And the conclusion they came up with is you give Will page, the knife. Aha, I've got the power to cut the cake. But you give Dan Runcie the right to choose which half. Damn, I've gotta make that cut really even otherwise, Dan's gonna pick the bigger half and I'll lose out. And this divider two model gave birth to the subject of fair Division and it simply asked, what makes a fair division fairer? How can I solve a preference? How can I solve for envy? I want that slice, not that slice. I'm unhappy cause Dan got that slice and not that slice. There's a whole bunch of maths in this. We had a third person that gets more complex. But I just wanna sow that seed for your listeners, which is when we ask questions like, why is it the label gets a dollar and the publisher gets 29 cents? There's gotta be some rationale why you know who bets first? Is it the label that bets first or the publisher who commits most? Is it label that commits most marketing spend or the publisher? These types of questions do with risk, often help answer questions of fair division, or to quote the famous Gangstar song, who's gonna take the weight? Somebody's gotta take a risk when you play this game, and perhaps there's a risk reward trade off, which is telling us who gets what Share of the spoils. [00:14:15] Dan Runcie: Let's unpack this a little bit because it's easy to see. May not be fair, but it's easy to see why the record labels get preference on the B2C side because as I mentioned before, the record labels have acquired a lot of the publishers, and especially in the streaming era, they were prioritizing that slice of the pie, their top line, as opposed to what essentially is the subsid subsidiary of their business, the publishing side. Why is it flipped with sync? Well, how did that dynamic end up being that way? [00:14:47] Will Page: That's an anomaly, which is actually blatantly obvious. You just don't think about it. And the way it was taught to me is anyone can record a song, but only one person can own a song. So I think, let's give an example of, I don't know, a Beach Boy song where I could ask for the original recording of that Beach Boy song to be used in the sync. Or I could get a cover band. So let's say I got a hundred thousand dollars to clear the rights of that song, and the initial split should be 50 50. If a band is willing to do a version of it for 10,000, the publisher can claim 90,000 of the budget and get the option. If the record label objects and says, well, I wish you used a master. Well, you got a price under the 10,000 to get the master in. So this kind of weird thing of bargaining power, if you ever hear. Let me scratch that again. Let me start from the top. Let me give you a quick example, Dan, to show how this works. One of my favorite sort of movies to watch when you're Bored and killing Time is The Devil's Swear, Prada great film. And then that film is a song by Seal called Crazy, incredible song, timeless. That guy has, you know, timeless hits to his name, but it's not him recording it. Now, what might have happened in that instance is the film producer's got a hundred thousand to get the song in the movie, and he's looking to negotiate how much you pay for publishing, how much you pay for label. Now the label is getting, you know, argumentative, wanting more and more, and the publisher is happy with a certain fee. Well, the film producer's got an option. Pay the publisher of the a hundred thousand, pay him 90,000, given the lion share of the deal. And then just turn the label and say, screw you. I'm gonna get a covers bant and knock me out. A decent version of it. And this happens all the time in TV films, in commercials, you'll hear covers of famous songs. And quite often what's happening there is you gotta pay the publisher the lion share of your budget and then just cough up some small chains to the covers bant to knock out a version. And then, so just a great reminder, Dan of anyone can record a song, but only one person can own the song that is the author. And that's why negotiating and bargaining power favors publishes in sync over the record labels. [00:16:59] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And as you're saying that, I was thinking through five, six other examples of cover songs I've seen in many popular TV shows and movies. And this is exactly why? [00:17:08] Will Page: It's always car commercials. For some reason, every car commercial's got cover in a famous song. You think, remember that weird Scottish guy down Ronie Trapital? Yeah. That's what's happened. The publishers pool the rug from under the record label's feet at negotiation table. Another super important observation about the glocalisation trend, Dan, is I'm gonna take one of those 10 countries as our spotlight, Poland. Now the top 10 in Polands or Polish, the top 20 in Poland, or Polish. In fact, if you go to the top 40, it's pretty much all Polish bands performing in Polish, and you could say that's localization. But stop the bus. Most of those acts are performing hip hop, which is by itself a US genre. So perhaps we've got glocalisation of genre, but localization of language and artist. And that's a very important distinction for us to dissect. And perhaps it's for the anthropologist, the sociologist, to work out what's going on here. But it's not as straightforward as it's just local music. It's local music, but it's global genres, which is driving us forward. [00:18:08] Dan Runcie: And that's a great point for the people that work at record labels and other companies making decisions too, because there's been so much talk about hip hop's decline. But so much of that is focused on how this music is categorized and a lot of it's categorized solely on. What is considered American hip hop. But if you look at the rise of music in Latin America, which has been one of the fastest growing regions in the world, most of that music is hip hop. Bad Bunny considers himself a hip hop artist. You just brought up this example of Polish hip hop being one of the most popular genres there. So when we think about. How different genres get categorized, which genres get funding. Let's remember that key piece because hip hop is this culture and it's global, and that's gonna continue. So let's make sure that we are not taking away from a genre that is really one of the most impactful and still puts up numbers if we're categorizing it in the right way. [00:19:04] Will Page: Damn straight. I mean, I think genres are often like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole and in a paper published by London School of Economics, I was honored to use that line that I think I said on trap last time, which is rap is something you do. Hip hop is something you live. Rap could be the genre, hip hop could be the lifestyle. Maybe what those Polish acts getting to the top of the charts of doing is representing a lifestyle, but they're doing it in their mother tongue. [00:19:28] Dan Runcie: Well said. Agreed. Well, let's switch gears a bit. One topic that I wanna talk about, and I actually gave a talk recently, and I referenced you from this term, and its of music, was the glocalisation of music and why this is happening and what it means for Western music specifically in the us. But first, if you could define that term and explain why this is so important in music right now. [00:19:53] Will Page: Well, I'm so excited to be on Trapital talking about this because we are now officially published by London School of Economics, so I'm gonna make my mom and dad proud of me. At last Backstory, paperback of my book, guitars in Economics, retitled to Pivot. Apparently WH Smith's Travel and Hudson Travel said books with economics in their titles Don't sell an airport. So we've rebranded the whole book to Pivot and it's in airports, which is a result. that book, that paperback came out on the 6th of February and that night I was on the BBC one show and they had this great happy, clappy family friendly story. They wanted to bounce off me. They said, Hey, will, Isn't it great that the top 10 songs in Britain last year were all British ex? For the first time in 60 years, Britain got a clean sweep of the top 10 in the music charts. And I said, curb your enthusiasm because we're seeing it elsewhere. The top 10 in Germany, were all German. Top 10 in Italy, all Italian, ditto France, deto Poland. And if you go to Spain, the top 10, there were all Spanish language, but largely Latin American. So it's not just a British thing that we've seen this rise of local music on global streaming platforms. We're seeing it everywhere, cue some gulps and embarrassments live in the TV studio. But I made my point and I came out of that interview thinking. Well that stunned them. It's gonna stu more people. And I said about working on a paper called glocalisation, which with a Scottish accent, it's hard to pronounce. Let's see how you get on with it. Not localization and not glocalisation. Emerging to by definition and by practice glocalisation. I teamed up with this wonderful author, Chris Riva, who'd be a great guest on your show. He did a wonderful blog piece you may have read, called Why is There No Key Changes in Music anymore? It's a really beautiful piece of music writing and there isn't. Nobody uses key changes in the conclusion of songs. And we set out to do this academic study to explain to the world what's been happening in music and why it's relevant to everyone else. And what we saw across 10 European countries was strong evidence of local music dominating the top of the charts in these local markets on global platforms. Now history matters here. We didn't see this with local High street retailers, America, British, Canadian music dominated those charts. We still don't see it in linear broadcast models like radio and television, you know, it's still English language repertoire dominating those charts. But when it comes to global streaming, unregulated free market, global streaming, we see this phenomenal effect where local music is topping the charts. And you know, you look at what does it mean for us English language countries like ourselves? It means things get a little bit tough. It means exporting English language repertoire into Europe becomes harder and harder. Maybe I'll just close off with this quite frightening thought, which is Britain is one of only three net exporters of music in the world. The other two being your country, United States and Sweden. Thanks to a phenomenal list of Swedish songwriters and artists. And I can't think of the last time this country's broken a global superstar act since Dua Lipa in 2017. Dan, we used to knock them out one, two a year. 2017 was a long time ago, and it's been pretty dry since. [00:23:13] Dan Runcie: And that's a great point for the people that work at record labels and other companies making decisions too, because there's been so much talk about hip hop's decline. But so much of that is focused on how this music is categorized and a lot of it's categorized solely on. What is considered American hip hop. But if you look at the rise of music in Latin America, which has been one of the fastest growing regions in the world, most of that music is hip hop. Bad Bunny considers himself a hip hop artist, you just brought up this example of Polish hip hop being one of the most popular genres there. So when we think about, how different genres get categorized, which genres get funding. Let's remember that key piece because hip hop is this culture and it's global, and that's gonna continue. So let's make sure that we are not taking away from a genre that is really one of the most impactful and still puts up numbers if we're categorizing it in the right way. [00:24:07] Will Page: Damn straight. I mean, I think genres are often like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole and in a paper published by London School of Economics, I was honored to use that line that I think I said on trap last time, which is rap is something you do. Hip hop is something you live. Rap could be the genre, hip hop could be the lifestyle. Maybe what those Polish acts getting to the top of the charts of doing is representing a lifestyle, but they're doing it in their mother tongue. [00:24:32] Dan Runcie: Well said. Agreed. This is something that's been top of mind for me as well because technology in general has a way of making regions and making people in particular regions closer together than it does making the world bigger. It's like in, in a sense, technology can make the world seem bigger, but it actually makes it seem smaller, right? And I think that algorithms and bubbles that come from that are another symptom of this. But this is going to have huge implications for Western music. You mentioned it yourself. All of these markets that are used to being export markets, when they no longer have the strength to be able to have those exports, how does that then change the underlying product? How does that then change the budgets, the expectations of what you're able to make? Because if you're still trying to maintain that same top line revenue, you're still trying to maintain those airwaves you have, it's gonna cost you more money to do that, because you can't rely on the few Western superstars that you have to get, that you have to have equivalent of a superstar or at least a middle tier star in every region that you once had strong market share that you could export in. And it's gonna change cost structures. It's gonna change focus. And a lot of these expansions that we've seen of record labels, especially Western record labels, having strong footprints in different regions across the world, they're not just gonna need to have presence, they're gonna need to have strong results. And in many ways, try to rival the own companies that are in those comp, in those regions, the homegrown record labels, because every country is trying to do their own version of this and it's gonna be tight. This is one of the challenges that I think is only gonna continue to happen. [00:26:14] Will Page: You're opening up a real can of worms. I get it. Pardon to your listeners, we're getting excited here. Day of publication, first time we've been able to discuss it on air, but I know I'm onto something huge here and you've just illustrated why just a few remarks. One, some of the quotes that we have in the paper were just phenomenal. We have Apple included in the paper. We have Amazon, Steve Boom, the head of that media for Amazon in charge of not just music, but Twitch audio books, the whole thing. He's looking at all these media verticals. He makes this point where he says, as the world becomes more globalized, we become more tribal. Stop right there, as he just nailed it. What's happening here? It's The Economist can only explain so much. This is what's so deep about this topic. I wanna toss it to the anthropologist of sociologists to make sense of what I've uncovered, but it's massive. Now let's take a look at what's happening down on the street level with the record labels and the consumers. You know, the record labels are making more money and they're devolving more power to the local off seats. You know the headcount in the major labels, local off season, Germany, France, and Vietnam or wherever is doubled in the past five years. It hasn't doubled in the global headquarters. That's telling you something. If you look at how labels do their global priority list, maybe every month, here's 10 songs we want you to prioritize globally. So I had a look at how this is done, and across the year I saw maybe 8, 10, 12 artists in total, and there's 120 songs. There's not that many artists. You think about how many local artists are coming out the gate every week hitting their local labels or local streaming staff, up with ideas, with showcases and so on. Not a lot of global priority. Then you flip it and you think about the consumer, you know, they've had linear broadcast models for 70 years where you get what you're given. I'm gonna play this song at this time and you're gonna have to listen to it. FM radio, TV shows now they're empowered with choice and they don't want that anymore. They want what's familiar. What comforts them. They want their own stars performing in their own mother tongue topping those charts. So this has got way to go. Now, a couple of flips on this. Firstly, what does this mean for artists? And then I'm gonna take it out of media, but let's deal with artists. Let's imagine a huge festival in Germany. 80,000 people now festival can now sell out with just German X, no problem at all. So when the big American X or British X commanded like a million dollars a headlining fee, you wanna go play that festival. That promoter can turn around and say, sorry man, I can't generate any more money by having you on my bill. How much are you gonna pay me to get on stage? Price maker, price taker? You see what happens. And then the last thing, and there's so much more in this paper for your listeners to get to, and let's please link to it and you'll take, I'll take questions live on your blog about it as well, but. There's a great guy called Chris Deering, the father of the Sony PlayStation. Did you play the Sony PlayStation back in the day? Were you're a fan of the PlayStation. [00:29:08] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. PS one and PS two. Yeah. Okay. [00:29:11] Will Page: You, oh, so you, you're an OG PlayStation fella. So he's the father of the PlayStation and launching the PlayStation in the nineties and into the nineties. He offered us observation, which is when they launched a SingStar, which was karaoke challenge. In the PlayStation, he says, we always discussed why the Swedish version of SingStar was more popular in Sweden than the English version Science. Intuitive enough. Let me break it down. Gaming back then was interactive music was not, you interacted with your PlayStation, that's why you killed so much time with it. Music was just a CD and a plastic case that broke your fingernails when you tried to open it. That's how the world worked back then and gaming offered you choice. I could try and do karaoke with those huge global English language hits where I could go further down the chart and buy the Swedish version and sing along to less well known Swedish hits. And the consumer always picked the Swedish version. So as a bellwether, as a microcosm, what I think Chris Ding was teaching us was we saw this happening in gaming long before you started seeing it happen with music. 20 years ago when there was interactive content, which gaming was, music wasn't, and consumers had a choice, which gaming offered a music didn't. They went local. Today, Dan, we're dealing with music lists, A interactive, and B offers choice. And what we're seeing is local cream is rising to the top of the charts. [00:30:33] Dan Runcie: And we're seeing this across multimedia as well. We're seeing it in the film industry too. Even as recent as five, 10 years ago, you release any of the blockbuster movies that were successful in the us, almost all of them had some overseas footprint. Some of them definitely vary based on the genre, but they were always there. But now China specifically had been such a huge market for the Hollywood and Box office specifically, but now they're starting to release more of their own high ed movies and those are attracting much more audiences than our export content can one. Two, the Chinese government in general is just being very selective about what they allow and what they don't allow. And then three, with that, that's really only leaving certain fast and furious movies and Avatar. That's it. The Marvel movies are hit and missed depending on what they allow, what they don't allow, and how, and it's just crazy to see the implications that has had for Marvel Studios for everyone else in Hollywood as well. When you think about it, and we're seeing this across multimedia, I think there's a few trends here that makes me think about, one is. Population growth in general and just where those trends are and how different corporations can approach the opportunity. Because I look at Nigeria, you look at Ethiopia, these are some of the fastest growing countries in the world. And you look at the music that is rising more popular than ever, whether it's Amapiano or it's Afrobeats, that's only going to continue to grow. And that's only from a few regions in the huge continent of Africa. So when we're thinking about where success is gonna come from, where that lines up with infrastructure, people have been seeing it for years. But the reason that we're seeing the growth in Africa, the growth in Latin America, the growth in a lot of these markets is this trend of glocalisation and it's only going to increase. So if we're thinking about where we wanna invest dollars, where we wanna build infrastructure in the future, we not just being folks that live in the western world, but also elsewhere in the world, this is where things are heading. [00:32:37] Will Page: Let me come in down the middle and then throw it out to the side. So, Ralph Simon, a longtime mentor of mine, is quoted in the paper and where he's actually gonna moderate the address here at the Mad Festival here in London, which is for the marketing and advertising community here, where he says, what you've uncovered here that headwind of glocalisation is gonna affect the world of marketing and advertising this time next year. That's what will be the buzzword in their head. So if you think about, I don't know, a drinks company like Diagio, maybe they've got a globalized strategy and a globalized marketing budget. When they start seeing that you gotta go fishing where the fish are and the fish are localized, they're gonna devolve that budget and devolve that autonomy down to local offices. So the wheels of localization, this rise of local, over global, they've only just got started, if I've called it right. We're onto something way bigger than a 20 minute read LSE discussion paper. This goes deep, deep and far beyond economics. But then you mentioned as well China, I mean just one offshoot observation there, which is to look at education. If you look at the UK university system, about a third, if not more, of it is subsidized by the Chinese government and Chinese students here. Great for business, slightly dubious in its business, besties, charging one student more than another student for the same product. But that's what we do over here. And I recently, we made a fellow of Edmar University's Futures Institute, which is an honor to me, you know, gets me back home more often. Fine. And I was learning from them that. The quality of students coming from China to study here in Britain and across Europe is getting worse and worse. Why? Cuz the best students have got the best universities in China. They no longer need to travel. So there's a classic export import dilemma of, for the past 10, 15 years, universities have built a complete treasury coffer base of cash around selling higher education to the Chinese. And now the tables are turning. I don't need to send my students to you universities anymore. I'll educate them here. Thank you very much. So, like I say, this stuff is a microcosm. It's got a can of worms that can open in many different directions [00:34:39] Dan Runcie: And it's gonna touch every industry that we know of to some extent, especially as every industry watches to be global to some extent. This is going to be a big topic moving forward. Let's shift gears a bit. One of the terms that was really big for us. That came from our podcast we did last year. We talked about herbivores and we talked about carnivores, and we talked about them in relation to streaming. We haven't touched on streaming yet, and this will be our opportunity to dig down into it, but mm-hmm. For the listeners, can we revisit where that came from, what that means, and also where this is heading? What does this mean for music streaming right now as it relates to the services and competition? [00:35:24] Will Page: Well, when I first came on Trapital, that was in a small Spanish village of Cayo De Suria and I didn't think I'd come up with an expression that would go viral from a small village in Spain to be, you know, quoted from in Canada, in America. And Dan, this is quite hilarious. we have a new secretary of state of culture here in the UK. The right Honorable MP, Lucy Fraser KG, Smart as a whip. Brilliant. And when I first met her, you know what the first thing she said was, I listened to you on Trapital. I wanted to ask you about this thing you've got going called herbivores and carnivores. So right the way through to the corridors of power, this expression seems to have traveled. What are we talking about? Well, the way I framed it was for 20 years we've had these streaming services, which essentially grow without damaging anyone else. Amazon is up. Bigger subscriber numbers. Apple's got bigger subscriber numbers. YouTube and Nancy's bigger subscriber numbers. And then Spotify. Nancy's bigger subscriber numbers. Everyone's growing each other's gardens. That's fine. That's herbivores. What happens when you reach that saturation point where there's no more room to grow? The only way I can grow my business is stealing some of yours. That's carnivores. And the greatest example is simply telcos. We're all familiar with telcos. We all pay our broadband bills. How do telcos compete? Everybody in your town's got a broadband account, so the only way you can compete is by stealing someone else's business. The only way here in Britain Virgin Media can compete is by stealing some of skies. The only way that at and t competes is by stealing some of com. So that's carnival competition. Now, the key point for Trapital listeners is we don't know what this chapter is gonna read like cuz we've never had carus pronounce that word correctly. Carus behavior before. We've never seen a headline that said, Spotify's down 2 million subs and apple's up 2 million, or Amazon's up 3 million and you know, YouTube is down 3 million. We don't know what that looks like. So I think it's important for Trapital to start thinking about logical, plausible scenarios. You kick a one obvious one, which is again, a lesson from the telcos. When we do become carnivores, do we compete on price or do we compete on features? Let me wheel this back a second, you know, we'll get into pricing in more depth later. But downward competition on price tends to be how carnivores compete, and that'll be a fascinating development given that we've not seen much change in price in 22 years in counting or as we saw with Apple, they roll out spatial audio, they charge more for it, they've got a new feature, and they charge more for that feature. So do we see downward competition blood on the carpet price competition, or do we see. Upward competition based on features. I don't know which one it's gonna be. It's not for me to call it. I don't work for any of these companies. I've worked with these companies, but I don't work for any of them directly. But we have to start discussing these scenarios. How's this chapter gonna read when we start learning of net churn amongst the four horseman streaming services that's out there. It's gonna be a fascinating twist, and I'm beginning, Dan, I'm beginning to see signs of con behavior happening right now, to be honest with you. I can see switchers happening across the four, so I think we're getting there in the US and the UK. What are those signs you see? I'm just seeing that in terms of subscriber growth, it's a lot bumpier than before. Before it is just a clear trajectory. The intelligence I was getting was, everyone's up, no one needs to bother. Now I flag, you know, I signed the siren. I'm beginning to see, you know, turbulence in that subscriber growth. Someone could be down one month, up the next month. Maybe that's just a little bit of churn. The ending of a trial period, you don't know. But now for me, the smoke signals are some of those services are seeing their gross stutter. Others are growing, which means we could start having some switching. I can add to that as well. Cross usage is key here. I really hammered this home during my 10 years at Spotify, which is to start plotting grids saying, who's using your service? This person, that person, and next person now ask what other services are they using? And some data from America suggests that one in four people using Apple music are also using Spotify. And one in four people using Spotify are also using Apple Music. Cross usage confirmed. So if that was true, what do you make of that? With a public spending squeeze? With inflation, with people becoming more cost conscious in the economy with less disposable income, maybe they wanna wheel back from that and use just one, not two. And that's where we could start seeing some net churn effects taking place as well. So, you know, imagine a cross usage grid in whatever business you're working on. If your Trapital listeners and ask that question, I know who's using my stuff, what else are they using? Um, that's a really, really important question to ask to work out how this carnivore scenario is gonna play out. How are we gonna write this chapter? [00:40:23] Dan Runcie: This is interesting because it reminds me of the comparisons that people often make to video streaming and some of the dynamics there where prices have increased over the years. I know we've talked about it before to tend to a 12 years ago Netflix was cheaper than Spotify was from a monthly, US price group subscription. And now tough, tough. It's right. And now it's nearly twice the price of the current price point. That it is. The difference though, when we're talking about when you are in that carnival, when you're in that carnival market, what do you compete on? Features or price? Video streaming, you can compete on features essentially because the content is differentiated. If you want to watch Wednesday, that Netflix series is only one platform that you can watch it on. Yeah, you need to have that Netflix subscription, but in music it's different because if you wanna listen to SZA's SOS album, that's been dominating the charts. You can listen to it on any of these services. So because there are fewer and fewer limitations, at least, if your goal, main goal from a consumption perspective is to listen to the music, how do you then differentiate, which I do think can put more pressure on price, which is very interesting because there is this broader pricing debate that's happening right now about why prices should be higher. And we've seen in the past six plus months that Apple has at least raised its prices. Amazon has done the same, at least for new subscribers. Spotify has announced that it will but hasn't yet and this is part of that dynamic because on one hand you have these broader economic trends as you're calling them out, but on the other hand you do have the rights holders and others pushing on prices to increase. And then you have the dynamic between the rights holders and then the streaming services about who would then get the increased revenue that comes. So there's all of these fascinating dynamics that are intersecting with this her before shift to carnivores [00:42:23] Will Page: For sure. Let me just go around the block of those observations you offered us. All relevant, all valid and just, you know, pick off a few of them. If we go back to Netflix, I think Netflix has a, not a herbivore. I'm gonna talk about alcohol here cause it's late in the day in the UK. A gin and tonic relationship with its competitors. That is, if Dan Runcie doesn't pay for any video streaming service, and let's say Netflix gets you in and I'm the head of Disney plus, I say, well, thank you Netflix. That makes it easier for me to get Dan to pay for Disney Plus too. They compliment each other. They are genuine complimentary goods. They might compete for attention. You know who's got the best exclusive content, who's gonna renew the friends deal, whatever, you know, who's gonna get Fresh Prince of Bel Air on? That could be a switch or piece of content too, but when you step back from it, it's gin and tonic. It's not different brands of gin, that's really important technology, which is they've grown this market of video streaming. They've increased their prices and the same person's paying for 2, 3, 4 different packages. If I added up, I'm giving video streaming about 60 quid a month, and I'm giving music streaming 10 and the sixties going up and the music's staying flat. So it's bizarre what's happened in video streaming because the content is exclusive. Back to, how do music carnivores play out again? Could we see it play out in features? I listen to airport cause they've got classical and I listen to Spotify because it got discovered weekly. Is that plausible? Personally, I don't buy it, but you can sow that seed and see if it takes root, as well. I think just quick pause and Apple as well. I think two things there. They've launched Apple Classical. That's a very, very good example of differentiating a product because it's a standalone app like podcast as a standalone app. The way I look at that is you can go to the supermarket and buy all your shopping. You can get your Tropicana orange juice, you can get your bread, get your eggs, get your meat, get your fish or you could go to a specialist butcher and buy your meat there instead. Apple Classical for me is the specialist butcher as opposed to the supermarket, and they're offering both in the same ecosystem. It'd be incredible if they preload out the next iOS update and give 850 million people an Apple classical app. Imagine if they did that for Jazz, my friend. Imagine if they did that for jazz. Just if Apple's listening, repeat, do that for jazz. So there's one example. The other example from Apple is to go back to bundling. You know we talk about 9.99 a month. I chewed your ear off about this topic last time I was on your show. Just to remind your listeners, where did it come from? This price point in pound Sterling, in Euro in dollar that we still pay for on the 20th of May, 2023. It came from a Blockbuster video rental card that is when reps, he got its license on the 3rd of December, 2001. Not long after nine 11, a record label exec said if it cost nine 90 nines, rent movies from Blockbuster. That's what it should cost to rent music. And 22 years plus on, we're still there, ran over. But what does this mean for bumbling strategies? How much does Apple really charge? If I give $30 a month for Apple One, which is tv, music, gaming news, storage and fitness, all wrapped up into one price. Now, there's a famous Silicon Valley investi called James Barksdale. Dunno if you've heard of him from the Bay Area where you're based. And he had this famous quote where he said, gentlemen, there's only two ways to make money in business. Bundling and unbundling. What we've had for the past 10 years is herbivores. Unbundling. Pay for Netflix, don't pay for Comcast. Pay for Spotify. Don't pay for your CDs, fine. What we might have in the next 10 years is carnivores bundling, which is a pendulum, swings back towards convenience of the bundle and away from the individual items. So Apple, take 30 bucks a month off my bank balance. Please take 40. All I want is one direct debit. I don't care about the money, I just want the bundle. And I don't want to see 15 direct debits every month. I just wanna see one. I think that's a very plausible scenario for how the next 10 years it's gonna play out as we shift from herbivores to carnivores [00:46:31] Dan Runcie: And the bundle benefits, the companies that have the ability to do that, right? You can do that through Amazon Prime and get your video, your music, your free shipping or whatever is under that umbrella. You could do that through Apple. You mentioned all the elements under Apple one. Spotify has some element of this as well, whether it's exclusive podcasting and things like that. So you're starting to see these things happen, one thing that you mentioned though earlier, you're talking about going through the supermarket and all of the items that you could get there versus going to the specialty butcher. One of the unique aspects of the supermarket thing though, is that. You go into the supermarket, yes, you can get your high-end Tropicana, or you can get the generic store brand, but you're gonna pay more for that high-end Tropicana because you're paying for the brand, you're paying for everything else that isn't gonna necessarily be the same as the generic one. That may not necessarily be the same quality or the same taste. We're seeing this a bit in the streaming landscape now and some of the debates that were happening. You've heard the major record label executives talk about how they don't necessarily want their premium music. They see their content as HBO level and it's being in a playlist next to rain music, or it's next to your uncle that is playing some random song on the banjo and they're getting essentially the same price going to the rights holders for that song. And in the supermarket that's obviously very different, each item has its own differentiator there, or econ has its own price point there and its own cost, but that isn't necessarily the same thing in music. Of course, the cost of each of those tracks may be different, but the revenue isn't. So that's gonna be, or that already is a whole debate that's going on right now. Do you have thoughts on that? [00:48:21] Will Page: Well, you tossed top Tropicana, let me go grab that carton for a second. It's one of the best economic lessons I ever learned was visiting a supermarket in America cuz it's true to say that when you go into one of your American supermarkets, an entire aisle of that precious shelf space, it's dedicated to selling inferior brands of orange juice next to Tropicana. Just very quickly what's happening there, the undercover economist, if you want, is a bargaining power game. Tropicana knows The reason Dan Runcie pulled the car over, got the trolley, went into that supermarket is to get a staple item of Tropicana and other stuff. By the time it gets to the till, Tropicana could be $5. By the time he gets to till he spent $50. So here, subscriber acquisition cost contribution is really high. They're getting you into the mall. What you do once you're in the mall is anyone's business, but they got you in. Otherwise you would've gone to the deli across the street. So they could say to the supermarket, I'm gonna charge you $7 to sell that Tropicana for $5 in my supermarket. Supermarket knows this, they know that Tropicana's got the bargaining paris. They counter by saying, here's an entire shell space of awful brands of orange juice to curb your bargaining power to see if the consumer wants something different. Now is this Will Page taking a stupid pill and digressing down Tropicana Alley. No. Let's think about this for a second today, Dan, there's a hundred thousand songs being onboarded onto streaming services. Is there anybody what? Marching up and down Capitol Hill saying We want a hundred thousand songs. No, the floodgates have opened them. It's all this content. Two new podcasts being launched every minute. All this content, all of these alternative brands to Tropicana. But you just wanted one. And I think the record labels argument here is that one Cardinal Tropicana is worth more than everything else you're offering by its side. So we wanna rebalance the scales. Now this gets really tricky and very contentious, but what is interesting, if you wanna take a cool head on this topic, it's to learn from the collecting studies, which is not the sexiest thing to say on a Trapital podcast, but it's to look at your Scaps and your BMIs and understand how they distribute the value of money for music. Since their foundation in the 1930s, scap has never, ever treated music to have the same value. They have rules, qualifications, distribution, allocation practices, which change the value of music. And they don't have data scientists then. And to be honest, I don't think they have data scientists now, but they always have treated the value of music differently. When they were founded, they had a classical music distribution pot and a distribution pot for music that wasn't classical music. Ironically, their board was full of classical composers, and I think that's called embezzlement, but we'll leave that to the side. What we have here is a story of recognizing music as different value in the world of collecting Saudi. I call that Jurassic Park, but in the world of music streaming with all those software developers and engineers and data scientists, 22 years of 9.99 money coming in and the Prorata model, which means every song is worth the same for money going out, and that's your tension. That's your tension. How do you get off that? Tension is anyone's business. We got some ideas we can discuss. User-centric is one, autocentric is another. I've got a few ideas for my own, but I want your audience to appreciate. In straight no chaser language we call it. That's the undercurrent of what's going on here. How do you introduce Trapitalism to communism? [00:51:38] Dan Runcie: You mentioned there's artist centric, user-centric, but you mentioned some ideas you had of your own. What are those ideas? [00:51:44] Will Page: Can I bounce it off? Use my intellectual punch bag for a quick second. Yes, and I've worked 'em all. I've worked on the artist centric model. I've worked on artist growth models. That's up on YouTube. I've worked on user centric, but I'm just, I'm worried that these models, these propositions could collapse the royalty systems that these streaming services work under. The introduction of user centric or artist centric could become so complex, so burdensome, the royalty systems could break down. That's a genuine concern I have. It's not one you discuss when you talk about your aspirations and the land of milk and honey of our new streaming model that you envisage. Back in the engine room when you see how royalties are allocated and calculated and distributed out to right holders, I mean they're under stress anyway. Any more stress could snap it. So I come at this model, my proposition from the one that's least likely to break the system. I'm not saying it's the best model, but it's the least like least likely to have adverse impact on the system. And it came from my DCMS Select Committee performance in the UK Parliament, which your listeners can watch, we can give the link out, which is I said to the committee in terms of how you could change the model. What about thinking about duration? This wheel back since 1980s when B BBC radio plays, let's say Bohemian Rhapsody, it will pay for that song twice what it would pay for. You're my best friend, members of Queen wrote both songs, both released within three, four years of each other, but one lasts twice as long as another. So duration is not new. We factor in duration a lot in our music industry. We just never thought about it. If you look at Mexico, the Mexican collecting Saudi, which is so corrupt as an inside an army barracks, if you look there, they have sliding scales, duration. They factor in time, but they say the second minute is what? Less than the first. But I'm giving you more for more time just adding, decreasing scale. Germany, they have ranges in your country. America, mechanical licensing collective, the MLC in Nashville, they have overtime songs that last more than six minutes get a 1.2 multiplier. So I've been thinking about how could you introduce duration to this business? And the idea I've come up with is not to measure time. That'd be too complex, too burdensome. Every single song, measuring every second of consumption. How do you audit there? If you're an artist manager, but I wanna measure completion, then I think this is the answer. I want songs that are completed in full to receive a bonus and songs that are skipped before they end to receive a penalty. Not a huge bonus, not a huge penalty, but a tweak. A nudge that says, I value your attention. I value great songs, and you listen to these great songs and it captures my entire attention. You deserve something more. But if I skipped out after the first chorus, you deserve something less. I think that small nudge is a nudge in the right direction for this industry, and it wouldn't break the systems. So there it is. Tell me now, have I taken a stupid pill? [00:54:42] Dan Runcie: What I like about it, and I've heard other people in the industry mention this too, you're able to get something closer to what we do see in video streaming. I forget which app is specifically, but their threshold is 75%. So they acknowledge that yes, if you don't wanna watch the credits, you don't wanna listen to the closeout, that's fine. But if we at least get you for 75%, then we are gonna count that, and then that then can get used internally. That can then get used in different areas. But I think it provides everyone better data and analysis, much better data to be able to break down than. Whether or not you listen to the first 30 seconds, that's such a low threshold, but that's essentially where we are today. I think the biggest thing, regardless of what path is chosen, because as you and I both know, there's trade-offs to everyone. So instead of going through all the negative parts about it, I think it's probably more helpful to talk about it collectively, you accept the fact that there are trade-offs. You accept the fact that people are gonna try to game the system regardless of how you go about it. Because we have seen duration work elsewhere and it does get at that particular thing that we're trying to get at there is help there. And you mentioned other things such as, yes, if you're listening to the Bohemian Rhapsody, you, which I think is at least seven minutes and 15 seconds, most likely longer versus two minute song that is clearly idealized for the streaming era. There still should be maybe some slight difference there because listening to a minute and 30 seconds is very different than listening to five minute and 45 seconds to be able to hit that 75% threshold. So between that and then I've heard other topics such as which artists you start your session with should have some type of multiplier on there, and as opposed to someone that gets algorithmically recommended to you to be able to put some more onus on the on-demand nature of music streaming. The tough thing is that these things do get tough in general. Anytime there's any type of multiplier or factor in, there still is a zero sum pot that we're taking the money out of. So accepting the trade-offs, I like the direction, I think that there's a few ways to go about it that could make it more interesting, but in general, I do think that any of the proposed options I've seen at least, allow a bit more of a true economic reflection of where the reality is as opposed to where things are today. And I understand where things are today. It's easy. It's easy to report, it's easy to collect on and pay people out, relatively speaking. But like anything, there's trade offs. [00:57:14] Will Page: Yeah, it's really easy today. Even drummers can work out their royalties and no offense to drummers, but that's telling you something. But two points on my duration proposal. Firstly, you mentioned the word threshold there. That's crucial because we already have thresholds. Music, every streaming service has to measure 30 seconds, one interrupted play in order for our royalty to be crystallized. So I'm just adding a second threshold. I'm not reinventing the wheel. It's low marginal cost. Here I'm just saying, gimme the threshold of completion. I don't care how long the song is and how much of that song was consumed. Just tell me did it get to the finishing line, yay or nay. And remember that threshold has anomalies, as I tell in the book Pivot, and previously is a hardback tar in economics. That 32nd threshold is like the tail wagging the dog. You're seeing songs are getting shorter and the choruses are moved to the front. Why? Cause I got a hook you for 30 seconds. I don't care what happens after 31 seconds, just get me 30 seconds. And why should I write a longer song when I'm not incentivized to do so? So the grass isn't greener back on the other side of the fence. There's problems with our current model, and I think a way of like, Steering it back towards an attention economy is gonna help music win. Kevin, Netflix says that sleep is their biggest form of competition, but also valuing the art of songwriting. Let's get back to the song. Let's put the artist back in the haystack and focus on the art, the creative process a bit more too, and reward that when it's consumed, it's an entirety. Second thing and final thing to wrap up on, Dan, can I quickly tell you about a wedding I was at recently? Yeah. Well I love weddings cause you get to wear your kil. That's always a nice talking point. But I also love them because you get to speak to bands. I always forget to speak to the bride and groom. I just drift over to the band after the reception's over and chat to the band instead. And I was at a wedding recently and the band was there and they played celebration by Cool and the gang for the bride and the groom. They played a second song for their parents to come and join on the dance floor. Then the band went into a two hour, 50 minute medley, nonstop right away through the evening didn't stop. It's like, wow, the band were tight. Went over to them at the end of it, said Drums, bass, you are in syncopation. I could see like, you really are a tight band, but what earth were you doing? Doing a two hour, 15 minute medley. And they said, it's TikTok. Nobody wants to hear complete songs anymore. And my Pint Glass dropped the floor and they said that. I was like, Scott's people don't drop their drinks. But I dropped on this occasion because, what did you say? It's TikTok. Nobody wants to hear a full song. They just want snippets. So we just do mes instead. Now forget the economics and the legal arguments. That makes me worried about which path music is currently on. Right there we are in an attention economy and I think it's got a little bit wared. We've got a straight up on the tracks. So I think this proposal's got legs. [00:59:56] Dan Runcie: That's that story. That wedding from that, that story from that wedding you went to, that's like the Steve Lacy example, right? He went to his concert. His concert has been doing very well because of his song, bad habit. But then the people that are. At his show, the fans that are there, they could only recite that one instance of the song that's on TikTok. I don't like, not even the whole song, just that one instance of the song that are on TikTok. Granted, Steve Lace has been making music for a while. It wasn't all the fans that were there, but with this influx of him not being able to perform in bigger venues, people wanna hear this song. It's one thing for years we've become accustomed to musicians performing for audiences that only know their hit. Singles are the one that got the music video, but now a lot of them are experiencing hearing their fans only repeat back. That one moment that went viral on TikTok. [01:00:48] Will Page: What's this? It's called verse two. If you stick around long enough, you'll hear a third one as well. You know what? It made me also just play that one off with me here, which is that famous Fleetwood Mac clip that blew up on TikTok. Guy hanging off the back of the truck drinking a bottle of soda Singing Dreams. A 1981 song by Fleetwood Mac. It's 34 seconds, couple of things, firstly, that had about 90 million views, but had 843,000 impersonations on TikTok of people hanging off the back of a truck pretending to sing a Fleetwood Mac song. But secondly, could you have a Gen Z millennial go and pay like 120 pounds to see them at Wembley Stadium, the cost of a streaming service for a year who's only ever consumed 34 seconds of their repertoire? I mean, that's not implausible, right? What type of world are we living in , albums anyone? Sometimes, [01:01:35] Dan Runcie: And sometimes that's all it takes, sometimes that's all it takes, right? In some ways, the fact that we saw that much user-generated content from it, hundreds of thousands as you've just shared in that example, is huge. But it's crazy and this is actually a good transition to talk about AI because so much of the AI music that is relevant and has been top of discussion has been based off of popular artists. We know we're talking about the AI that's based on a viral song from the Drake and the weekend. Granted, that song got a lot of buzz, especially when it first came out. I don't know how many repeat listens it's gotten since, but that's not necessarily the point. None point more so none. Exactly, exactly, right? [01:02:19] Will Page: 20 million streams from 20 million listeners. Nobody streamed it twice, trust me. [01:02:25] Dan Runcie: You gave in at least one stream though, right? You gotta give it a blessing, right? What was your thought? [01:02:33] Will Page: Well, I'm gonna hand the torch over to Jessica Powell, the founder of Audio Shake, who I think is the most exciting company in music tech right now. And point your listeners towards her CK blog posting, which is this whole Drake Week weekend thing. Isn't it just a fuss over a remix? Paraphrasing the title, and it's a beautiful, that woman is inspirational, but she can write. She can write, which is like grabbing you by the luquette lapels and shaking seven shades of shit out of you. She really uses the power of the pen to express her words, to go back to remix culture. So I think inspired from her work. I would say two things here. I think the thorny legal issue that's going on here is consent. We've had remix culture for years. We've had computers involved in music creation for years. We need to see that in a continuation. But if you think about language of deep fakes, if I could manipulate the voice of Dan Ronsey and put that over a record without his consent, that's a red light, you know, I'm not being paranoid here, but there's a line that cannot be crossed. Dan once did not say those words, a computer generated those words. You could be liable for those words. How do we solve that? That's not just music, there's a whole, that's a whole spectrum of issues out there in society today that are gonna be affected by that. Music is a bell weather. That's a microcosm. It's the one that always gets hit first, but the rest are reaction stacked and ready to tumble. But on the positive side, you flip it from risk to opportunity. We think about catalog uplift for a second. That is how can release of new content drive demand in all content? As I've been saying, to record labels since 2018. That's a secret source. That's what you're trying to correct. The purpose of a new album is not just make that new album a splash. Get it to the top of the charts. Make sure you're in today's top hits. It's can you get the new fans to go back and listen to the old content? For some artists, it works. For others it doesn't. Do you fix what's broken or work with what's fixed? The greatest example is an artist that would love to hear on Trapital , Eminem, needs no introduction. When I look at his streaming data, All he needs to roll outta bed fart and burp on Spotify, and his catalog goes through the roof. His new content has got nothing to do with new content. It just inspires people to go back to the late nineties and early nineties and all those releases, which were so big back then. The new content's great. No disrespect, but it's like a reminder that there's this amazing catalog that you want to hear again and again, and it's a valuable catalog because that stuff is already recouped. A catalog dollar is worth way more to the bank account than a frontline dollar. There are other artists who can't make it work, and it's just for me. What happens if AI music solves that secret source of catalog uplift? So, here in the UK, we here at Platoon Studios are next door to Noel Gallica from Oasis, and there was recently an AI generated oasis, which is getting Noel Gallica Liam Gallica back together again. Artificial intelligence achieved this. Human beings can't achieve this. The two brothers don't get along, but AI sold it. That's cool. And Liam gave it a thumbs up. He's like, I love this walking. Good stuff. I'm not offended by ai. I embrace this. What did we see? No, a small spike in the AI version. A big spike in Oasis catalog. So for all the fear and paranoia on this topic, once we realize it can regenerate interest in catalog, I think you'll see the tables turn the sentiment change in our New York millisecond. Literally, they'll be like, I can make bucks out of this. This is a force of good, not a force of bad. [01:06:05] Dan Runcie: I would hope that that's what people take away from this whole narrative is that if you are the owners of the back catalog of Drake in the weekend, you probably saw some type of noticeable bump. Because even if people don't want to hear that song, they're still gonna go back and stream worse behavior, which in my opinion, is one of Drake's best songs because they want to hear that time and time again. Mm-hmm. And I think too, I'm glad you brought up Jessica and Audio Shake. I'm a small investor in the company and one of the things that I think she did well in that piece and others she's done is just laying the table stakes for where we are because. Even if the song itself isn't that good, A, I don't think we're at the point yet. We may get there eventually with AI, but I don't think we're at the point yet where people will listen to this music as a replacement. But if it could remind you of what's already there, that's what's valuable. If you let fans experiment and get them to play around with the tools that are available and upload their music as long as it can fit within certain parameters and isn't violating anything or trying to impersonate the artist itself, you can let them freely create in a way that even 10, 12 years ago, there are all these questions about people putting their songs on putting artist song on YouTube as user-generated content in a video. And over time you two was able to figure out how to get tagging properly so that artists could still be compensated for problem. Exactly. So that is possible, and I do think that eventually we can hopefully get to that point and I'm glad you mentioned Eminem. Two stats that always blow my mind, I'm sure you probably saw this one, but his 2005 Greatest Hits album was the sixth bestselling album, or the sixth bestselling hip hop album. I forget the exact stat, but it was one of the bestselling albums in the UK last year. And Lose Yourself is the most streamed song on Spotify from the two thousands. So when we talk about longevity and we talk about him, I mean, people already knew him as the bestselling artist of the two thousands, but when we see those numbers and you see these catalog sales and all of that, if he ever made a decision, I don't know what his ownership structure, what share he has looks like, but if he ever had a decision, the amount of people that go back to his music to work out and everything else, it's one of the most valuable catalogs of music. [01:08:24] Will Page: And he owns it all right? The rights are reverted back to him. So he's got a hundred percent ownership on that. [01:08:29] Dan Runcie: Oh, wow, I didn't know that. Wow. [01:08:31] Will Page: So, but the bigger point, and I know that the Trapital has a huge audience. It's an honor to address them here and now. And it's a broad church. I mean, the Secretary of State for media and culture in the UK Parliament, it's a big listener, obviously. So I wanna land that point, which is don't hand this off to the lawyers to solve because they're gonna be too risk averse and they can't see the wood from the trees. There's a huge opportunity here. And those same balanced voices like Jessica Powell from Audio Shake, I want them to be rise up so we can counter the risk aversion from the lawyers. Lawyers will do what they do best, but I describe in any workplace, there's two types of people. There's a yo squads and there's a no squads. And lawyers more often than not are no squads. They think of reasons why you can't do something. So I just wanna make sure we balance it with some people from the Yo squad so that we don't choke this off before the party can really start. There's so much opportunity and let me remind your listeners as well, Jimmy Hendrix, the greatest export from America to Britain of all time. He came here in 1966, I believe, maybe 65, 66. And the label that first did a deal with him, the label owner, who I won't name, but I've seen the picture, had a plaque above his office. So this is 1966. Okay? And the plaque said, the day that we can get computers to replace drummers is when we can have a proper music industry. And just keep in mind historical context. Music's a ride and we're on this trip forever. We're not getting off anytime soon. This is just part of that ride, and that's what I loved about Jessica's essay. It's just a reminder that we're just on a ride here and AI is just the next stop on the train line. There's more stops to come. [01:10:12] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Music is always gonna be there. It's like water, right? We have to understand where the technology's heading, but that's where it is. Well Will, before we close [01:10:22] Will Page: Along with the typewriter. [01:10:24] Dan Runcie: Exactly. Exactly. Well Will, before we close things out, it's great. This podcast, the base of it is the business of music, but you yourself are a dj and you have this incredible mix that you put out every year. It was an honor to provide one of the drops forward, but tell us a little bit about the mix and what to expect this year. [01:10:43] Will Page: I'm so excited to, uh, launch this mix that's going out on Friday. Friday is an important day on the calendar. It's gonna be 50 years since Carole King performed in Central Park to a hundred thousand people for free 50 years since release of our album fantasy. And this year's mix is called 2023. Believe in Humanity and That word, you know, believe that expression, believe in Humanity, is the name of one of the songs on that Carole King album. Now, just wheel back for a second, you say, Carole King, most people think of tapestry, a Willie jumper and a cat, and you need a friend with James Taylor. Get it? I mean, that song got me through my third year at university. But if you listen to fantasy, she does funk, and she doesn't just do funk. She does funk better than anyone. You think you're in the song Cho Rathon, and she's doing deep, dirty, aggressive funk. You know me and you, our music tastes are similar. We don't drink tea without sugar. This is tea with lots of sugar. This is incredible funk music, and she just knocks it out the park like, touch me if you can. Best funk record I've heard is Fantasy by Carole King. So I've named the song The Mix 2023 Believe in Humanity. After that song, the mix opens with that, but more importantly, Dan, it opens with a speech from Carole King exclusively to me. And that's for a kid from Edin Pro. He's been doing mixed tapes out of his bedroom since he was going through puberty. I've now got Carole King opening my mix. Do I need to say more? I gotta say more. There's so much more. Nile Rogers is in the mix. Anderson Peck is in the mix. Dan Runcie's got a shout out in the mix, and we've got Kyle O'Leary, who I think is the most promising hip hop artist out there today. We have her and we've messed around with her track players. We've given it the edge of, you know, Dave MacAllum's music. We've given it the edge. There's a hint to your listeners, we've got it all. So, I mean, I put so much emotional time and effort into making these mixes happen and going out for free. They get your DJ slots, but more importantly, it goes back to what makes me wanna work in music, which was a lyric from Mike G and the Jungle Brothers from that famous album done by the forties of Nature, where he said, it's about getting the music across. It's about getting the message across. It's about getting it across without crossing over How can I get art across an audience without delegating its integrity? And it's such an honor to have this mixed drop in this Friday to do just that and to have Carole King open it. I mean, that's, made my year and we're not even into June yet. [01:13:07] Dan Runcie: That's special. That's special. Well, we're excited to drop that and share it as well, especially around the time this episode comes out. So please share that link once it's ready. And Will, as always, it's been a pleasure. We covered so much in this episode. And before we let you go, where can people follow along to stay tuned with you for the next post that you put out for the next thing that you publish? Where can they, stay to follow along? [01:13:31] Will Page: Sure, I mean a couple of of tags. Firstly, the website, tarzaneconomics.com. I mean, I built that to be a resource for industry professionals, for students alike so they can navigate the spaghetti of this music industry. [01:13:43] Dan Runcie: Well soon be pivot.com though. Check me there. You gotta have a website that does well at airports. [01:13:47] Will Page: I got the dopple ganger pivotal economics.com gets you to the same place, so I Oh, nice to resurrect it for the paperback. Lucky I got that too, just in the nick of time. very active on LinkedIn. will page on LinkedIn, you'll find me there. and then also on Twitter it's Will page as well. But yeah, when this mix drops, it'll be great to get feedback from chapter listeners. So please comment and please, please, please share, get the music across without crossing over. [01:14:13] Dan Runcie: Thank you Will, it's been a pleasure. [01:14:15] Will Page: Thank you so much, Dan. [01:14:16] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 25 May 2023 09:00:00 -0000 The State of Music (with Will Page) full Dan Runcie Will Page returns to the show for a “state of the industry” episode. In last year’s appearance he correctly called out the slowdown in streaming subscriptions, bubbles in web3, and more. Will believes the value of copyrighted music could hit $45 billion annually when the 2022 numbers are calculated — up $5 billion from 2021, which is already an all-time high for the industry.   Another massive shift is glocalisation”: the trend of local music dominating the domestic charts, as opposed to Western artists. This phenomenon isn’t just being felt in music, but across every industry, from film to education. We covered both these trends, plus many more. Here’s all our talking points:  1:33 Why the music industry is actually worth $40+ billion annually 7:03 Physical music sales on the up and up 10:47 How publisher and labels split up copyright value 16:59 The rise of “glocalisation” will impact every industry 34:39 DSP carnivores vs. herbivores  40:23 Why video vs. music streaming isn’t a perfect comparison  46:31 Music as a premium offering in the marketplace  51:38 How to improve streaming royalties   1:06:05 AI music benefits that goes overlooked  1:10:07 Will’s latest mix pays homage to Carole King Glocalisation report:  https://www.lse.ac.uk/european-institute/Assets/Documents/LEQS-Discussion-Papers/EIQPaper182.pdf Will Page's 2023 Believe in Humanity: https://www.mixcloud.com/willpagesnc/2023-believe-in-humanity/ Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Will Page, @willpageauthor This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Will Page: I put so much emotional time and effort into making these mixes happen and going out for free. They get your DJ slots, but more importantly, it goes back to what makes me wanna work in music, which was a lyric from Mike G and the Jungle Brothers from that famous album done by the forties of Nature, where he said, it's about getting the music across. It's about getting the message across. It's about getting it across without crossing over. How can I get art across an audience without delegating its integrity? And it's such an honor to have this mixed drop in this Friday I mean, that's, made my year and we're not even into June yet. [00:00:30] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:56] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is all about the state of the music industry, and we're joined by the One and Only, Will Page. He is a fellow at the London School of Economics. He's an author of Tarzan Economics and Pivot, and he is the former chief economist at Spotify. Will's second time on the podcast. Now, the first time we talked all about the future of streaming and where things are going in music, and we picked that conversation, backed up. We talked about a bunch of trends including the glocalisation of music, which is from a new report that Will had recently put out. We also talked about why he values the music industry to be close to a 40 billion industry, which is much higher than a lot of the reports about recorded music itself. And we also talk about a bunch of the topics that are happening right now, whether it's ai, how streaming should be priced, the dynamic between record labels and streaming services, and a whole lot more love. This conversation will always brings it with these conversations, so I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's our chat. [00:02:00] Dan Runcie: All right, today we have the one and only Will Page with us who is recording from a beautiful location. I don't know if you're listening to the pod you can't see, but will tell us where you are right now. [00:02:09] Will Page: So great to be back like a boomerang on Trapital. Dan, and I'm coming to you from the Platoon Studios. Part of the Apple Company Platoon is our label services company, which is owned by Apple. They're doing great stuff with the artists like Amapiano music from South Africa. And the best place I can describe to you here, it's like a Tardus. Have you've ever seen Dr. Who? There's a tiny door in this tall yard music complex in North London just behind Kings Cross. When you enter that tiny door, you enter this maze of the well class spatial audio recording studios of Apple. And it's an honor they've given me this location to come to Trapital today. [00:02:41] Dan Runcie: Well we're gonna make the best of it here and it's always great to have you on, cuz Last year, last year's episode felt like a state of the industry episode, and that's where I wanna start things off this year with this episode. A couple months ago, you put out your post in your Tarzan economics where you said that this industry is not a 2020 5 billion industry, the way others say. Mm-hmm. You say, no, this is almost a 40 billion industry. So let's break it down. How did you arrive there and what's the backstory? [00:03:12] Will Page: I get goosebumps when you say that you think like 10 years ago we were talking about a 14 billion business and now it's a 40, you know, skews a slurred Scottish pronunciation, but let's just be clear from one four to four zero, how did that happen? Well the origins of that work, and you've been a great champion of it, Dan, is for me to go into a cave around about October, November and calculate the global value of copyright and copyright is not just what the record labels publish, that famous IFPIGMR report that everyone refers to, but it's what collecting studies like ask F and BMI collect what publishers generates through direct licensing. You have to add A plus B plus C labels, plus collecting societies plus publishers together. Then the complex part, ripping out the double counting and doing all the add-backs, and you get to this figure of 39.6 billion, which as you say, you round it up, it begins with a four. And I think there's a few things that we can kind of get into on this front. I think firstly we should discuss the figure. I'll you a few insights there. Secondly, I think we should discuss the division. And then thirdly, I want to cover the physical aspect as well. So if you think about the figure, we've got 39.6 billion. We know it's growing. I think what's gonna be interesting when I go back into that cave later this year to redo that number, it's gonna be a lot bigger. Dan, I'll see it here on Trapital First. I think a 40 billion business in 2021 is gonna be closer to a 45 billion business in 2022. And one of the reasons why it's not labels and streaming, it's a combination of publishers are reporting record collections, essentially they're playing catch up with labels, booking deals that perhaps labels booked a year earlier. And collecting studies are gonna get back to normal after all the damage of the pandemic. And when you drive those factors in where you have a much bigger business than we had before. So for the people listening to your podcast who are investing in copyright, this party's got a waiter run. You know, don't jump off the train yet cause this thing is growing [00:05:18] Dan Runcie: And the piece I want to talk about there is the publishing side of this. If you look at the breakdown of the numbers you have, the publishing is nearly, publishing plus is nearly 13 billion itself. The major record labels own most of the largest publishers right now. Why isn't this number just automatically included? Wouldn't it be in everyone's advantage to include the fact that yes, Universal Music Group and Universal Music Publishing Group are together, part of the entity that make this, whether it's them, it's Warner Chapel, it's others. Why isn't this just the top line number that's shared in all of the other reports? [00:05:56] Will Page: It would be nice if it was, and indeed, I think the publishing industry around about 2001 used to do this. They haven't done it since. But it's like spaghetti. It's the best way I can describe it. I mean, how do you measure publisher income? You know, is it gross receipts by the publisher? Is it the publisher plus the collecting Saudi? That is money that went straight to the songwriter and didn't touch the publisher. So what the publisher holds onto what we call an industry, a net publisher, shares all these weird ways of measuring this industry that we have to be clear on. And it's, not easy. but I think what we do in the report is we try and make it bite size. We try and make it digestible to work out how much of that publisher's business came through, CMOs, the S gaps and BMIs this X over here PS music and how much do they bring in directly? And that allows you to understand a couple of things. Firstly, how do they compare vi to vis labels in terms of their overall income? And secondly, how do they compare when they go out to market directly, let's say putting a sync and a TV commercial or movie versus generating money through collective licensing that is radio or TV via ASCAP or bmr. So you get an interpretation of how these publishers are making those numbers work as well. [00:07:03] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And then when we are able to break it down, we see a few numbers that roll up into it. So from a high level, at least what you shared from 2021, we have that 25.8 billion number from the recorded side. So that does fall in line with what we see from what the IPIs and others share. 10 billion Sure. From the publishing. And then you do have, the next 3.5 and then a little sliver there for royalty free and for the publishers' direct revenue that doesn't come from the songwriters. The next piece though, within the elements of how all of the revenue flows into that. We've talked a lot about streaming and we've talked, we'll get into streaming in a little bit, but I wanna talk about the physical side cause that was the second piece that you mentioned. We've all talked about vinyl, but it's not just vinyl. So could you talk a bit about where the trends are right now with physical sales and why this is such a huge factor for this number? [00:07:56] Will Page: Who would've thought on a Trapital podcast in May, 2023. We'll be talking about physical as a second topic on the agenda, but it's worth it. I mean, it's not a rounding era anymore. It's not chump change. in America, physical revenues largely vinyl outpaced the growth of streaming for the second year straight. It's not as big as streaming, but it's growing faster and it has been growing faster for two years now. That's crazy. Here in the uk the value of physical revenues to the UK music industry has overtaken the value of physical to Germany. Quick bit of history. For years, decades, Germans used to buy CDs. that's fallen off a cliff. They've given up on CDs. Whereas over here in Britain, we've all started buying vinyl again. So the value of vinyl in Britain is worth more than the value of CDs to Germans, that type of stuff you didn't expect to see. And if you go out to Asia, you see the CD market still strong. You've still got people who buy more than one copy of the same cd, of the same band. Don't ask me to explain the rationale for that, but it happens and it moves numbers. But after all this, when the dust settles, I mean a couple of observations, all the data to me is suggesting that 55, 60% of vinyl buyers don't actually own a record player. So I think it was Peter Drucker who said, the seller really knows what they're selling, and I don't think you're selling intellectual property or music cop right here. What we're actually selling is merchandise, you know, Taylor Swift, I got an email from Taylor Swift team saying they've got a marble blue vinyl coming out this week. Now we're talking about vinyl in the same way we used to talk about stone wash jeans, marble blue. This is like the fourth version of the same 11 songs priced at 29 99. Let's just figure that out for a second. I'm willing to give you 10 bucks a month to, access a hundred million songs on streaming services, but I'm also, it's the same person. I'm also willing to give you 30 bucks to buy just 10 of them. This is expensive music and I might not even be listening to it cause I don't even have a record player. [00:09:55] Dan Runcie: This is the fascinating piece about how we're calculating this stuff because the vinyl sales and all of that has been reported widely as a great boom to the industry and it has been. We've seen the numbers and in a lot of ways it brings people back to the era of being able to sell the hard copy of the thing itself, but it's much closer to selling a t-shirt or selling a sweatshirt or selling some type of concert merchant. It actually is the actual physical medium itself. So it'll be fascinating to see how that continues to evolve, how that embraces as well. On your side though, as a personal listener, do you buy any vinyls yourself that you don't listen to, that you just keep on display or? [00:10:34] Will Page: It's like your shoe collection, isn't it? Yes, right. Is the answer to that. But no, I mean, I will say that I got 3000 fi funk records in the house and they're all in alphabetical chronological order. So if they haven't been listened to, at least I know where to find them. [00:10:48] Dan Runcie: That's fair. That makes sense. So let's talk about the third piece of this, and that's the division of this. So you have the B2C side and you have the B2B side. Can we dig into that? [00:10:59] Will Page: Sure. this is, I think the backdrop for a lot more of the sort of thorny conversations happening in the music industry is now, you may have heard that in the UK we've had a three year long government inquiry into our business. We had the regulator turn over the coals, and so there's a lot of interest in how you split up this 40 billion dollar piece of pie. who gets what? And the division I'm gonna talk about here is labels an artist on one side. Songwriters and publishers on the other side as it currently stands, I would keep it simple and say two thirds of that 40 billion dollars goes to the record label and the artist, one third goes to the publisher and the songwriter. Now, when I first did this exercise back in 2014, it was pretty much 50 50, and when you see things which are not 50 50 in life, you're entitled to say, is that fair? Is it fair that when a streaming service pays a record label a dollar, it pays the publisher and the songwriter around 29 cents? If you're a publisher, a songwriter, you might say, that's unfair, cuz I'm getting less than them. I have preferences, issues, and I have any issues with this division. Well, let's flip it around. If you look at how B2B world works, licensing at the wholesale level, let's say you're licensing the bbc, for example, if your song's played on the bbc, you're gonna get 150 pounds for a play. 90 pounds goes to the songwriter and the publisher, 60 pounds goes to the artist and a record label. Now, is that fair? Why does the publisher win in the B2B market? By the record, label wins in the B2C market. And the one, the lesson I want to give your listeners is one from economics, and it's rarely taught university these days, but back in 1938, 1939, in a small Polish town called la. Now part of the Ukraine, ironically, free Polish mathematicians sat in a place called a Scottish Cafe, ironic for me, and invented a concept called Fair Division. And the question they posed was, let's imagine there's a cake and there's two people looking at that cake getting hungry. There's Dan Runcie over in the Bay Area and there's Will page back in Edinburgh. What's the best way to divide that cake up? And the conclusion they came up with is you give Will page, the knife. Aha, I've got the power to cut the cake. But you give Dan Runcie the right to choose which half. Damn, I've gotta make that cut really even otherwise, Dan's gonna pick the bigger half and I'll lose out. And this divider two model gave birth to the subject of fair Division and it simply asked, what makes a fair division fairer? How can I solve a preference? How can I solve for envy? I want that slice, not that slice. I'm unhappy cause Dan got that slice and not that slice. There's a whole bunch of maths in this. We had a third person that gets more complex. But I just wanna sow that seed for your listeners, which is when we ask questions like, why is it the label gets a dollar and the publisher gets 29 cents? There's gotta be some rationale why you know who bets first? Is it the label that bets first or the publisher who commits most? Is it label that commits most marketing spend or the publisher? These types of questions do with risk, often help answer questions of fair division, or to quote the famous Gangstar song, who's gonna take the weight? Somebody's gotta take a risk when you play this game, and perhaps there's a risk reward trade off, which is telling us who gets what Share of the spoils. [00:14:15] Dan Runcie: Let's unpack this a little bit because it's easy to see. May not be fair, but it's easy to see why the record labels get preference on the B2C side because as I mentioned before, the record labels have acquired a lot of the publishers, and especially in the streaming era, they were prioritizing that slice of the pie, their top line, as opposed to what essentially is the subsid subsidiary of their business, the publishing side. Why is it flipped with sync? Well, how did that dynamic end up being that way? [00:14:47] Will Page: That's an anomaly, which is actually blatantly obvious. You just don't think about it. And the way it was taught to me is anyone can record a song, but only one person can own a song. So I think, let's give an example of, I don't know, a Beach Boy song where I could ask for the original recording of that Beach Boy song to be used in the sync. Or I could get a cover band. So let's say I got a hundred thousand dollars to clear the rights of that song, and the initial split should be 50 50. If a band is willing to do a version of it for 10,000, the publisher can claim 90,000 of the budget and get the option. If the record label objects and says, well, I wish you used a master. Well, you got a price under the 10,000 to get the master in. So this kind of weird thing of bargaining power, if you ever hear. Let me scratch that again. Let me start from the top. Let me give you a quick example, Dan, to show how this works. One of my favorite sort of movies to watch when you're Bored and killing Time is The Devil's Swear, Prada great film. And then that film is a song by Seal called Crazy, incredible song, timeless. That guy has, you know, timeless hits to his name, but it's not him recording it. Now, what might have happened in that instance is the film producer's got a hundred thousand to get the song in the movie, and he's looking to negotiate how much you pay for publishing, how much you pay for label. Now the label is getting, you know, argumentative, wanting more and more, and the publisher is happy with a certain fee. Well, the film producer's got an option. Pay the publisher of the a hundred thousand, pay him 90,000, given the lion share of the deal. And then just turn the label and say, screw you. I'm gonna get a covers bant and knock me out. A decent version of it. And this happens all the time in TV films, in commercials, you'll hear covers of famous songs. And quite often what's happening there is you gotta pay the publisher the lion share of your budget and then just cough up some small chains to the covers bant to knock out a version. And then, so just a great reminder, Dan of anyone can record a song, but only one person can own the song that is the author. And that's why negotiating and bargaining power favors publishes in sync over the record labels. [00:16:59] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And as you're saying that, I was thinking through five, six other examples of cover songs I've seen in many popular TV shows and movies. And this is exactly why? [00:17:08] Will Page: It's always car commercials. For some reason, every car commercial's got cover in a famous song. You think, remember that weird Scottish guy down Ronie Trapital? Yeah. That's what's happened. The publishers pool the rug from under the record label's feet at negotiation table. Another super important observation about the glocalisation trend, Dan, is I'm gonna take one of those 10 countries as our spotlight, Poland. Now the top 10 in Polands or Polish, the top 20 in Poland, or Polish. In fact, if you go to the top 40, it's pretty much all Polish bands performing in Polish, and you could say that's localization. But stop the bus. Most of those acts are performing hip hop, which is by itself a US genre. So perhaps we've got glocalisation of genre, but localization of language and artist. And that's a very important distinction for us to dissect. And perhaps it's for the anthropologist, the sociologist, to work out what's going on here. But it's not as straightforward as it's just local music. It's local music, but it's global genres, which is driving us forward. [00:18:08] Dan Runcie: And that's a great point for the people that work at record labels and other companies making decisions too, because there's been so much talk about hip hop's decline. But so much of that is focused on how this music is categorized and a lot of it's categorized solely on. What is considered American hip hop. But if you look at the rise of music in Latin America, which has been one of the fastest growing regions in the world, most of that music is hip hop. Bad Bunny considers himself a hip hop artist. You just brought up this example of Polish hip hop being one of the most popular genres there. So when we think about. How different genres get categorized, which genres get funding. Let's remember that key piece because hip hop is this culture and it's global, and that's gonna continue. So let's make sure that we are not taking away from a genre that is really one of the most impactful and still puts up numbers if we're categorizing it in the right way. [00:19:04] Will Page: Damn straight. I mean, I think genres are often like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole and in a paper published by London School of Economics, I was honored to use that line that I think I said on trap last time, which is rap is something you do. Hip hop is something you live. Rap could be the genre, hip hop could be the lifestyle. Maybe what those Polish acts getting to the top of the charts of doing is representing a lifestyle, but they're doing it in their mother tongue. [00:19:28] Dan Runcie: Well said. Agreed. Well, let's switch gears a bit. One topic that I wanna talk about, and I actually gave a talk recently, and I referenced you from this term, and its of music, was the glocalisation of music and why this is happening and what it means for Western music specifically in the us. But first, if you could define that term and explain why this is so important in music right now. [00:19:53] Will Page: Well, I'm so excited to be on Trapital talking about this because we are now officially published by London School of Economics, so I'm gonna make my mom and dad proud of me. At last Backstory, paperback of my book, guitars in Economics, retitled to Pivot. Apparently WH Smith's Travel and Hudson Travel said books with economics in their titles Don't sell an airport. So we've rebranded the whole book to Pivot and it's in airports, which is a result. that book, that paperback came out on the 6th of February and that night I was on the BBC one show and they had this great happy, clappy family friendly story. They wanted to bounce off me. They said, Hey, will, Isn't it great that the top 10 songs in Britain last year were all British ex? For the first time in 60 years, Britain got a clean sweep of the top 10 in the music charts. And I said, curb your enthusiasm because we're seeing it elsewhere. The top 10 in Germany, were all German. Top 10 in Italy, all Italian, ditto France, deto Poland. And if you go to Spain, the top 10, there were all Spanish language, but largely Latin American. So it's not just a British thing that we've seen this rise of local music on global streaming platforms. We're seeing it everywhere, cue some gulps and embarrassments live in the TV studio. But I made my point and I came out of that interview thinking. Well that stunned them. It's gonna stu more people. And I said about working on a paper called glocalisation, which with a Scottish accent, it's hard to pronounce. Let's see how you get on with it. Not localization and not glocalisation. Emerging to by definition and by practice glocalisation. I teamed up with this wonderful author, Chris Riva, who'd be a great guest on your show. He did a wonderful blog piece you may have read, called Why is There No Key Changes in Music anymore? It's a really beautiful piece of music writing and there isn't. Nobody uses key changes in the conclusion of songs. And we set out to do this academic study to explain to the world what's been happening in music and why it's relevant to everyone else. And what we saw across 10 European countries was strong evidence of local music dominating the top of the charts in these local markets on global platforms. Now history matters here. We didn't see this with local High street retailers, America, British, Canadian music dominated those charts. We still don't see it in linear broadcast models like radio and television, you know, it's still English language repertoire dominating those charts. But when it comes to global streaming, unregulated free market, global streaming, we see this phenomenal effect where local music is topping the charts. And you know, you look at what does it mean for us English language countries like ourselves? It means things get a little bit tough. It means exporting English language repertoire into Europe becomes harder and harder. Maybe I'll just close off with this quite frightening thought, which is Britain is one of only three net exporters of music in the world. The other two being your country, United States and Sweden. Thanks to a phenomenal list of Swedish songwriters and artists. And I can't think of the last time this country's broken a global superstar act since Dua Lipa in 2017. Dan, we used to knock them out one, two a year. 2017 was a long time ago, and it's been pretty dry since. [00:23:13] Dan Runcie: And that's a great point for the people that work at record labels and other companies making decisions too, because there's been so much talk about hip hop's decline. But so much of that is focused on how this music is categorized and a lot of it's categorized solely on. What is considered American hip hop. But if you look at the rise of music in Latin America, which has been one of the fastest growing regions in the world, most of that music is hip hop. Bad Bunny considers himself a hip hop artist, you just brought up this example of Polish hip hop being one of the most popular genres there. So when we think about, how different genres get categorized, which genres get funding. Let's remember that key piece because hip hop is this culture and it's global, and that's gonna continue. So let's make sure that we are not taking away from a genre that is really one of the most impactful and still puts up numbers if we're categorizing it in the right way. [00:24:07] Will Page: Damn straight. I mean, I think genres are often like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole and in a paper published by London School of Economics, I was honored to use that line that I think I said on trap last time, which is rap is something you do. Hip hop is something you live. Rap could be the genre, hip hop could be the lifestyle. Maybe what those Polish acts getting to the top of the charts of doing is representing a lifestyle, but they're doing it in their mother tongue. [00:24:32] Dan Runcie: Well said. Agreed. This is something that's been top of mind for me as well because technology in general has a way of making regions and making people in particular regions closer together than it does making the world bigger. It's like in, in a sense, technology can make the world seem bigger, but it actually makes it seem smaller, right? And I think that algorithms and bubbles that come from that are another symptom of this. But this is going to have huge implications for Western music. You mentioned it yourself. All of these markets that are used to being export markets, when they no longer have the strength to be able to have those exports, how does that then change the underlying product? How does that then change the budgets, the expectations of what you're able to make? Because if you're still trying to maintain that same top line revenue, you're still trying to maintain those airwaves you have, it's gonna cost you more money to do that, because you can't rely on the few Western superstars that you have to get, that you have to have equivalent of a superstar or at least a middle tier star in every region that you once had strong market share that you could export in. And it's gonna change cost structures. It's gonna change focus. And a lot of these expansions that we've seen of record labels, especially Western record labels, having strong footprints in different regions across the world, they're not just gonna need to have presence, they're gonna need to have strong results. And in many ways, try to rival the own companies that are in those comp, in those regions, the homegrown record labels, because every country is trying to do their own version of this and it's gonna be tight. This is one of the challenges that I think is only gonna continue to happen. [00:26:14] Will Page: You're opening up a real can of worms. I get it. Pardon to your listeners, we're getting excited here. Day of publication, first time we've been able to discuss it on air, but I know I'm onto something huge here and you've just illustrated why just a few remarks. One, some of the quotes that we have in the paper were just phenomenal. We have Apple included in the paper. We have Amazon, Steve Boom, the head of that media for Amazon in charge of not just music, but Twitch audio books, the whole thing. He's looking at all these media verticals. He makes this point where he says, as the world becomes more globalized, we become more tribal. Stop right there, as he just nailed it. What's happening here? It's The Economist can only explain so much. This is what's so deep about this topic. I wanna toss it to the anthropologist of sociologists to make sense of what I've uncovered, but it's massive. Now let's take a look at what's happening down on the street level with the record labels and the consumers. You know, the record labels are making more money and they're devolving more power to the local off seats. You know the headcount in the major labels, local off season, Germany, France, and Vietnam or wherever is doubled in the past five years. It hasn't doubled in the global headquarters. That's telling you something. If you look at how labels do their global priority list, maybe every month, here's 10 songs we want you to prioritize globally. So I had a look at how this is done, and across the year I saw maybe 8, 10, 12 artists in total, and there's 120 songs. There's not that many artists. You think about how many local artists are coming out the gate every week hitting their local labels or local streaming staff, up with ideas, with showcases and so on. Not a lot of global priority. Then you flip it and you think about the consumer, you know, they've had linear broadcast models for 70 years where you get what you're given. I'm gonna play this song at this time and you're gonna have to listen to it. FM radio, TV shows now they're empowered with choice and they don't want that anymore. They want what's familiar. What comforts them. They want their own stars performing in their own mother tongue topping those charts. So this has got way to go. Now, a couple of flips on this. Firstly, what does this mean for artists? And then I'm gonna take it out of media, but let's deal with artists. Let's imagine a huge festival in Germany. 80,000 people now festival can now sell out with just German X, no problem at all. So when the big American X or British X commanded like a million dollars a headlining fee, you wanna go play that festival. That promoter can turn around and say, sorry man, I can't generate any more money by having you on my bill. How much are you gonna pay me to get on stage? Price maker, price taker? You see what happens. And then the last thing, and there's so much more in this paper for your listeners to get to, and let's please link to it and you'll take, I'll take questions live on your blog about it as well, but. There's a great guy called Chris Deering, the father of the Sony PlayStation. Did you play the Sony PlayStation back in the day? Were you're a fan of the PlayStation. [00:29:08] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. PS one and PS two. Yeah. Okay. [00:29:11] Will Page: You, oh, so you, you're an OG PlayStation fella. So he's the father of the PlayStation and launching the PlayStation in the nineties and into the nineties. He offered us observation, which is when they launched a SingStar, which was karaoke challenge. In the PlayStation, he says, we always discussed why the Swedish version of SingStar was more popular in Sweden than the English version Science. Intuitive enough. Let me break it down. Gaming back then was interactive music was not, you interacted with your PlayStation, that's why you killed so much time with it. Music was just a CD and a plastic case that broke your fingernails when you tried to open it. That's how the world worked back then and gaming offered you choice. I could try and do karaoke with those huge global English language hits where I could go further down the chart and buy the Swedish version and sing along to less well known Swedish hits. And the consumer always picked the Swedish version. So as a bellwether, as a microcosm, what I think Chris Ding was teaching us was we saw this happening in gaming long before you started seeing it happen with music. 20 years ago when there was interactive content, which gaming was, music wasn't, and consumers had a choice, which gaming offered a music didn't. They went local. Today, Dan, we're dealing with music lists, A interactive, and B offers choice. And what we're seeing is local cream is rising to the top of the charts. [00:30:33] Dan Runcie: And we're seeing this across multimedia as well. We're seeing it in the film industry too. Even as recent as five, 10 years ago, you release any of the blockbuster movies that were successful in the us, almost all of them had some overseas footprint. Some of them definitely vary based on the genre, but they were always there. But now China specifically had been such a huge market for the Hollywood and Box office specifically, but now they're starting to release more of their own high ed movies and those are attracting much more audiences than our export content can one. Two, the Chinese government in general is just being very selective about what they allow and what they don't allow. And then three, with that, that's really only leaving certain fast and furious movies and Avatar. That's it. The Marvel movies are hit and missed depending on what they allow, what they don't allow, and how, and it's just crazy to see the implications that has had for Marvel Studios for everyone else in Hollywood as well. When you think about it, and we're seeing this across multimedia, I think there's a few trends here that makes me think about, one is. Population growth in general and just where those trends are and how different corporations can approach the opportunity. Because I look at Nigeria, you look at Ethiopia, these are some of the fastest growing countries in the world. And you look at the music that is rising more popular than ever, whether it's Amapiano or it's Afrobeats, that's only going to continue to grow. And that's only from a few regions in the huge continent of Africa. So when we're thinking about where success is gonna come from, where that lines up with infrastructure, people have been seeing it for years. But the reason that we're seeing the growth in Africa, the growth in Latin America, the growth in a lot of these markets is this trend of glocalisation and it's only going to increase. So if we're thinking about where we wanna invest dollars, where we wanna build infrastructure in the future, we not just being folks that live in the western world, but also elsewhere in the world, this is where things are heading. [00:32:37] Will Page: Let me come in down the middle and then throw it out to the side. So, Ralph Simon, a longtime mentor of mine, is quoted in the paper and where he's actually gonna moderate the address here at the Mad Festival here in London, which is for the marketing and advertising community here, where he says, what you've uncovered here that headwind of glocalisation is gonna affect the world of marketing and advertising this time next year. That's what will be the buzzword in their head. So if you think about, I don't know, a drinks company like Diagio, maybe they've got a globalized strategy and a globalized marketing budget. When they start seeing that you gotta go fishing where the fish are and the fish are localized, they're gonna devolve that budget and devolve that autonomy down to local offices. So the wheels of localization, this rise of local, over global, they've only just got started, if I've called it right. We're onto something way bigger than a 20 minute read LSE discussion paper. This goes deep, deep and far beyond economics. But then you mentioned as well China, I mean just one offshoot observation there, which is to look at education. If you look at the UK university system, about a third, if not more, of it is subsidized by the Chinese government and Chinese students here. Great for business, slightly dubious in its business, besties, charging one student more than another student for the same product. But that's what we do over here. And I recently, we made a fellow of Edmar University's Futures Institute, which is an honor to me, you know, gets me back home more often. Fine. And I was learning from them that. The quality of students coming from China to study here in Britain and across Europe is getting worse and worse. Why? Cuz the best students have got the best universities in China. They no longer need to travel. So there's a classic export import dilemma of, for the past 10, 15 years, universities have built a complete treasury coffer base of cash around selling higher education to the Chinese. And now the tables are turning. I don't need to send my students to you universities anymore. I'll educate them here. Thank you very much. So, like I say, this stuff is a microcosm. It's got a can of worms that can open in many different directions [00:34:39] Dan Runcie: And it's gonna touch every industry that we know of to some extent, especially as every industry watches to be global to some extent. This is going to be a big topic moving forward. Let's shift gears a bit. One of the terms that was really big for us. That came from our podcast we did last year. We talked about herbivores and we talked about carnivores, and we talked about them in relation to streaming. We haven't touched on streaming yet, and this will be our opportunity to dig down into it, but mm-hmm. For the listeners, can we revisit where that came from, what that means, and also where this is heading? What does this mean for music streaming right now as it relates to the services and competition? [00:35:24] Will Page: Well, when I first came on Trapital, that was in a small Spanish village of Cayo De Suria and I didn't think I'd come up with an expression that would go viral from a small village in Spain to be, you know, quoted from in Canada, in America. And Dan, this is quite hilarious. we have a new secretary of state of culture here in the UK. The right Honorable MP, Lucy Fraser KG, Smart as a whip. Brilliant. And when I first met her, you know what the first thing she said was, I listened to you on Trapital. I wanted to ask you about this thing you've got going called herbivores and carnivores. So right the way through to the corridors of power, this expression seems to have traveled. What are we talking about? Well, the way I framed it was for 20 years we've had these streaming services, which essentially grow without damaging anyone else. Amazon is up. Bigger subscriber numbers. Apple's got bigger subscriber numbers. YouTube and Nancy's bigger subscriber numbers. And then Spotify. Nancy's bigger subscriber numbers. Everyone's growing each other's gardens. That's fine. That's herbivores. What happens when you reach that saturation point where there's no more room to grow? The only way I can grow my business is stealing some of yours. That's carnivores. And the greatest example is simply telcos. We're all familiar with telcos. We all pay our broadband bills. How do telcos compete? Everybody in your town's got a broadband account, so the only way you can compete is by stealing someone else's business. The only way here in Britain Virgin Media can compete is by stealing some of skies. The only way that at and t competes is by stealing some of com. So that's carnival competition. Now, the key point for Trapital listeners is we don't know what this chapter is gonna read like cuz we've never had carus pronounce that word correctly. Carus behavior before. We've never seen a headline that said, Spotify's down 2 million subs and apple's up 2 million, or Amazon's up 3 million and you know, YouTube is down 3 million. We don't know what that looks like. So I think it's important for Trapital to start thinking about logical, plausible scenarios. You kick a one obvious one, which is again, a lesson from the telcos. When we do become carnivores, do we compete on price or do we compete on features? Let me wheel this back a second, you know, we'll get into pricing in more depth later. But downward competition on price tends to be how carnivores compete, and that'll be a fascinating development given that we've not seen much change in price in 22 years in counting or as we saw with Apple, they roll out spatial audio, they charge more for it, they've got a new feature, and they charge more for that feature. So do we see downward competition blood on the carpet price competition, or do we see. Upward competition based on features. I don't know which one it's gonna be. It's not for me to call it. I don't work for any of these companies. I've worked with these companies, but I don't work for any of them directly. But we have to start discussing these scenarios. How's this chapter gonna read when we start learning of net churn amongst the four horseman streaming services that's out there. It's gonna be a fascinating twist, and I'm beginning, Dan, I'm beginning to see signs of con behavior happening right now, to be honest with you. I can see switchers happening across the four, so I think we're getting there in the US and the UK. What are those signs you see? I'm just seeing that in terms of subscriber growth, it's a lot bumpier than before. Before it is just a clear trajectory. The intelligence I was getting was, everyone's up, no one needs to bother. Now I flag, you know, I signed the siren. I'm beginning to see, you know, turbulence in that subscriber growth. Someone could be down one month, up the next month. Maybe that's just a little bit of churn. The ending of a trial period, you don't know. But now for me, the smoke signals are some of those services are seeing their gross stutter. Others are growing, which means we could start having some switching. I can add to that as well. Cross usage is key here. I really hammered this home during my 10 years at Spotify, which is to start plotting grids saying, who's using your service? This person, that person, and next person now ask what other services are they using? And some data from America suggests that one in four people using Apple music are also using Spotify. And one in four people using Spotify are also using Apple Music. Cross usage confirmed. So if that was true, what do you make of that? With a public spending squeeze? With inflation, with people becoming more cost conscious in the economy with less disposable income, maybe they wanna wheel back from that and use just one, not two. And that's where we could start seeing some net churn effects taking place as well. So, you know, imagine a cross usage grid in whatever business you're working on. If your Trapital listeners and ask that question, I know who's using my stuff, what else are they using? Um, that's a really, really important question to ask to work out how this carnivore scenario is gonna play out. How are we gonna write this chapter? [00:40:23] Dan Runcie: This is interesting because it reminds me of the comparisons that people often make to video streaming and some of the dynamics there where prices have increased over the years. I know we've talked about it before to tend to a 12 years ago Netflix was cheaper than Spotify was from a monthly, US price group subscription. And now tough, tough. It's right. And now it's nearly twice the price of the current price point. That it is. The difference though, when we're talking about when you are in that carnival, when you're in that carnival market, what do you compete on? Features or price? Video streaming, you can compete on features essentially because the content is differentiated. If you want to watch Wednesday, that Netflix series is only one platform that you can watch it on. Yeah, you need to have that Netflix subscription, but in music it's different because if you wanna listen to SZA's SOS album, that's been dominating the charts. You can listen to it on any of these services. So because there are fewer and fewer limitations, at least, if your goal, main goal from a consumption perspective is to listen to the music, how do you then differentiate, which I do think can put more pressure on price, which is very interesting because there is this broader pricing debate that's happening right now about why prices should be higher. And we've seen in the past six plus months that Apple has at least raised its prices. Amazon has done the same, at least for new subscribers. Spotify has announced that it will but hasn't yet and this is part of that dynamic because on one hand you have these broader economic trends as you're calling them out, but on the other hand you do have the rights holders and others pushing on prices to increase. And then you have the dynamic between the rights holders and then the streaming services about who would then get the increased revenue that comes. So there's all of these fascinating dynamics that are intersecting with this her before shift to carnivores [00:42:23] Will Page: For sure. Let me just go around the block of those observations you offered us. All relevant, all valid and just, you know, pick off a few of them. If we go back to Netflix, I think Netflix has a, not a herbivore. I'm gonna talk about alcohol here cause it's late in the day in the UK. A gin and tonic relationship with its competitors. That is, if Dan Runcie doesn't pay for any video streaming service, and let's say Netflix gets you in and I'm the head of Disney plus, I say, well, thank you Netflix. That makes it easier for me to get Dan to pay for Disney Plus too. They compliment each other. They are genuine complimentary goods. They might compete for attention. You know who's got the best exclusive content, who's gonna renew the friends deal, whatever, you know, who's gonna get Fresh Prince of Bel Air on? That could be a switch or piece of content too, but when you step back from it, it's gin and tonic. It's not different brands of gin, that's really important technology, which is they've grown this market of video streaming. They've increased their prices and the same person's paying for 2, 3, 4 different packages. If I added up, I'm giving video streaming about 60 quid a month, and I'm giving music streaming 10 and the sixties going up and the music's staying flat. So it's bizarre what's happened in video streaming because the content is exclusive. Back to, how do music carnivores play out again? Could we see it play out in features? I listen to airport cause they've got classical and I listen to Spotify because it got discovered weekly. Is that plausible? Personally, I don't buy it, but you can sow that seed and see if it takes root, as well. I think just quick pause and Apple as well. I think two things there. They've launched Apple Classical. That's a very, very good example of differentiating a product because it's a standalone app like podcast as a standalone app. The way I look at that is you can go to the supermarket and buy all your shopping. You can get your Tropicana orange juice, you can get your bread, get your eggs, get your meat, get your fish or you could go to a specialist butcher and buy your meat there instead. Apple Classical for me is the specialist butcher as opposed to the supermarket, and they're offering both in the same ecosystem. It'd be incredible if they preload out the next iOS update and give 850 million people an Apple classical app. Imagine if they did that for Jazz, my friend. Imagine if they did that for jazz. Just if Apple's listening, repeat, do that for jazz. So there's one example. The other example from Apple is to go back to bundling. You know we talk about 9.99 a month. I chewed your ear off about this topic last time I was on your show. Just to remind your listeners, where did it come from? This price point in pound Sterling, in Euro in dollar that we still pay for on the 20th of May, 2023. It came from a Blockbuster video rental card that is when reps, he got its license on the 3rd of December, 2001. Not long after nine 11, a record label exec said if it cost nine 90 nines, rent movies from Blockbuster. That's what it should cost to rent music. And 22 years plus on, we're still there, ran over. But what does this mean for bumbling strategies? How much does Apple really charge? If I give $30 a month for Apple One, which is tv, music, gaming news, storage and fitness, all wrapped up into one price. Now, there's a famous Silicon Valley investi called James Barksdale. Dunno if you've heard of him from the Bay Area where you're based. And he had this famous quote where he said, gentlemen, there's only two ways to make money in business. Bundling and unbundling. What we've had for the past 10 years is herbivores. Unbundling. Pay for Netflix, don't pay for Comcast. Pay for Spotify. Don't pay for your CDs, fine. What we might have in the next 10 years is carnivores bundling, which is a pendulum, swings back towards convenience of the bundle and away from the individual items. So Apple, take 30 bucks a month off my bank balance. Please take 40. All I want is one direct debit. I don't care about the money, I just want the bundle. And I don't want to see 15 direct debits every month. I just wanna see one. I think that's a very plausible scenario for how the next 10 years it's gonna play out as we shift from herbivores to carnivores [00:46:31] Dan Runcie: And the bundle benefits, the companies that have the ability to do that, right? You can do that through Amazon Prime and get your video, your music, your free shipping or whatever is under that umbrella. You could do that through Apple. You mentioned all the elements under Apple one. Spotify has some element of this as well, whether it's exclusive podcasting and things like that. So you're starting to see these things happen, one thing that you mentioned though earlier, you're talking about going through the supermarket and all of the items that you could get there versus going to the specialty butcher. One of the unique aspects of the supermarket thing though, is that. You go into the supermarket, yes, you can get your high-end Tropicana, or you can get the generic store brand, but you're gonna pay more for that high-end Tropicana because you're paying for the brand, you're paying for everything else that isn't gonna necessarily be the same as the generic one. That may not necessarily be the same quality or the same taste. We're seeing this a bit in the streaming landscape now and some of the debates that were happening. You've heard the major record label executives talk about how they don't necessarily want their premium music. They see their content as HBO level and it's being in a playlist next to rain music, or it's next to your uncle that is playing some random song on the banjo and they're getting essentially the same price going to the rights holders for that song. And in the supermarket that's obviously very different, each item has its own differentiator there, or econ has its own price point there and its own cost, but that isn't necessarily the same thing in music. Of course, the cost of each of those tracks may be different, but the revenue isn't. So that's gonna be, or that already is a whole debate that's going on right now. Do you have thoughts on that? [00:48:21] Will Page: Well, you tossed top Tropicana, let me go grab that carton for a second. It's one of the best economic lessons I ever learned was visiting a supermarket in America cuz it's true to say that when you go into one of your American supermarkets, an entire aisle of that precious shelf space, it's dedicated to selling inferior brands of orange juice next to Tropicana. Just very quickly what's happening there, the undercover economist, if you want, is a bargaining power game. Tropicana knows The reason Dan Runcie pulled the car over, got the trolley, went into that supermarket is to get a staple item of Tropicana and other stuff. By the time it gets to the till, Tropicana could be $5. By the time he gets to till he spent $50. So here, subscriber acquisition cost contribution is really high. They're getting you into the mall. What you do once you're in the mall is anyone's business, but they got you in. Otherwise you would've gone to the deli across the street. So they could say to the supermarket, I'm gonna charge you $7 to sell that Tropicana for $5 in my supermarket. Supermarket knows this, they know that Tropicana's got the bargaining paris. They counter by saying, here's an entire shell space of awful brands of orange juice to curb your bargaining power to see if the consumer wants something different. Now is this Will Page taking a stupid pill and digressing down Tropicana Alley. No. Let's think about this for a second today, Dan, there's a hundred thousand songs being onboarded onto streaming services. Is there anybody what? Marching up and down Capitol Hill saying We want a hundred thousand songs. No, the floodgates have opened them. It's all this content. Two new podcasts being launched every minute. All this content, all of these alternative brands to Tropicana. But you just wanted one. And I think the record labels argument here is that one Cardinal Tropicana is worth more than everything else you're offering by its side. So we wanna rebalance the scales. Now this gets really tricky and very contentious, but what is interesting, if you wanna take a cool head on this topic, it's to learn from the collecting studies, which is not the sexiest thing to say on a Trapital podcast, but it's to look at your Scaps and your BMIs and understand how they distribute the value of money for music. Since their foundation in the 1930s, scap has never, ever treated music to have the same value. They have rules, qualifications, distribution, allocation practices, which change the value of music. And they don't have data scientists then. And to be honest, I don't think they have data scientists now, but they always have treated the value of music differently. When they were founded, they had a classical music distribution pot and a distribution pot for music that wasn't classical music. Ironically, their board was full of classical composers, and I think that's called embezzlement, but we'll leave that to the side. What we have here is a story of recognizing music as different value in the world of collecting Saudi. I call that Jurassic Park, but in the world of music streaming with all those software developers and engineers and data scientists, 22 years of 9.99 money coming in and the Prorata model, which means every song is worth the same for money going out, and that's your tension. That's your tension. How do you get off that? Tension is anyone's business. We got some ideas we can discuss. User-centric is one, autocentric is another. I've got a few ideas for my own, but I want your audience to appreciate. In straight no chaser language we call it. That's the undercurrent of what's going on here. How do you introduce Trapitalism to communism? [00:51:38] Dan Runcie: You mentioned there's artist centric, user-centric, but you mentioned some ideas you had of your own. What are those ideas? [00:51:44] Will Page: Can I bounce it off? Use my intellectual punch bag for a quick second. Yes, and I've worked 'em all. I've worked on the artist centric model. I've worked on artist growth models. That's up on YouTube. I've worked on user centric, but I'm just, I'm worried that these models, these propositions could collapse the royalty systems that these streaming services work under. The introduction of user centric or artist centric could become so complex, so burdensome, the royalty systems could break down. That's a genuine concern I have. It's not one you discuss when you talk about your aspirations and the land of milk and honey of our new streaming model that you envisage. Back in the engine room when you see how royalties are allocated and calculated and distributed out to right holders, I mean they're under stress anyway. Any more stress could snap it. So I come at this model, my proposition from the one that's least likely to break the system. I'm not saying it's the best model, but it's the least like least likely to have adverse impact on the system. And it came from my DCMS Select Committee performance in the UK Parliament, which your listeners can watch, we can give the link out, which is I said to the committee in terms of how you could change the model. What about thinking about duration? This wheel back since 1980s when B BBC radio plays, let's say Bohemian Rhapsody, it will pay for that song twice what it would pay for. You're my best friend, members of Queen wrote both songs, both released within three, four years of each other, but one lasts twice as long as another. So duration is not new. We factor in duration a lot in our music industry. We just never thought about it. If you look at Mexico, the Mexican collecting Saudi, which is so corrupt as an inside an army barracks, if you look there, they have sliding scales, duration. They factor in time, but they say the second minute is what? Less than the first. But I'm giving you more for more time just adding, decreasing scale. Germany, they have ranges in your country. America, mechanical licensing collective, the MLC in Nashville, they have overtime songs that last more than six minutes get a 1.2 multiplier. So I've been thinking about how could you introduce duration to this business? And the idea I've come up with is not to measure time. That'd be too complex, too burdensome. Every single song, measuring every second of consumption. How do you audit there? If you're an artist manager, but I wanna measure completion, then I think this is the answer. I want songs that are completed in full to receive a bonus and songs that are skipped before they end to receive a penalty. Not a huge bonus, not a huge penalty, but a tweak. A nudge that says, I value your attention. I value great songs, and you listen to these great songs and it captures my entire attention. You deserve something more. But if I skipped out after the first chorus, you deserve something less. I think that small nudge is a nudge in the right direction for this industry, and it wouldn't break the systems. So there it is. Tell me now, have I taken a stupid pill? [00:54:42] Dan Runcie: What I like about it, and I've heard other people in the industry mention this too, you're able to get something closer to what we do see in video streaming. I forget which app is specifically, but their threshold is 75%. So they acknowledge that yes, if you don't wanna watch the credits, you don't wanna listen to the closeout, that's fine. But if we at least get you for 75%, then we are gonna count that, and then that then can get used internally. That can then get used in different areas. But I think it provides everyone better data and analysis, much better data to be able to break down than. Whether or not you listen to the first 30 seconds, that's such a low threshold, but that's essentially where we are today. I think the biggest thing, regardless of what path is chosen, because as you and I both know, there's trade-offs to everyone. So instead of going through all the negative parts about it, I think it's probably more helpful to talk about it collectively, you accept the fact that there are trade-offs. You accept the fact that people are gonna try to game the system regardless of how you go about it. Because we have seen duration work elsewhere and it does get at that particular thing that we're trying to get at there is help there. And you mentioned other things such as, yes, if you're listening to the Bohemian Rhapsody, you, which I think is at least seven minutes and 15 seconds, most likely longer versus two minute song that is clearly idealized for the streaming era. There still should be maybe some slight difference there because listening to a minute and 30 seconds is very different than listening to five minute and 45 seconds to be able to hit that 75% threshold. So between that and then I've heard other topics such as which artists you start your session with should have some type of multiplier on there, and as opposed to someone that gets algorithmically recommended to you to be able to put some more onus on the on-demand nature of music streaming. The tough thing is that these things do get tough in general. Anytime there's any type of multiplier or factor in, there still is a zero sum pot that we're taking the money out of. So accepting the trade-offs, I like the direction, I think that there's a few ways to go about it that could make it more interesting, but in general, I do think that any of the proposed options I've seen at least, allow a bit more of a true economic reflection of where the reality is as opposed to where things are today. And I understand where things are today. It's easy. It's easy to report, it's easy to collect on and pay people out, relatively speaking. But like anything, there's trade offs. [00:57:14] Will Page: Yeah, it's really easy today. Even drummers can work out their royalties and no offense to drummers, but that's telling you something. But two points on my duration proposal. Firstly, you mentioned the word threshold there. That's crucial because we already have thresholds. Music, every streaming service has to measure 30 seconds, one interrupted play in order for our royalty to be crystallized. So I'm just adding a second threshold. I'm not reinventing the wheel. It's low marginal cost. Here I'm just saying, gimme the threshold of completion. I don't care how long the song is and how much of that song was consumed. Just tell me did it get to the finishing line, yay or nay. And remember that threshold has anomalies, as I tell in the book Pivot, and previously is a hardback tar in economics. That 32nd threshold is like the tail wagging the dog. You're seeing songs are getting shorter and the choruses are moved to the front. Why? Cause I got a hook you for 30 seconds. I don't care what happens after 31 seconds, just get me 30 seconds. And why should I write a longer song when I'm not incentivized to do so? So the grass isn't greener back on the other side of the fence. There's problems with our current model, and I think a way of like, Steering it back towards an attention economy is gonna help music win. Kevin, Netflix says that sleep is their biggest form of competition, but also valuing the art of songwriting. Let's get back to the song. Let's put the artist back in the haystack and focus on the art, the creative process a bit more too, and reward that when it's consumed, it's an entirety. Second thing and final thing to wrap up on, Dan, can I quickly tell you about a wedding I was at recently? Yeah. Well I love weddings cause you get to wear your kil. That's always a nice talking point. But I also love them because you get to speak to bands. I always forget to speak to the bride and groom. I just drift over to the band after the reception's over and chat to the band instead. And I was at a wedding recently and the band was there and they played celebration by Cool and the gang for the bride and the groom. They played a second song for their parents to come and join on the dance floor. Then the band went into a two hour, 50 minute medley, nonstop right away through the evening didn't stop. It's like, wow, the band were tight. Went over to them at the end of it, said Drums, bass, you are in syncopation. I could see like, you really are a tight band, but what earth were you doing? Doing a two hour, 15 minute medley. And they said, it's TikTok. Nobody wants to hear complete songs anymore. And my Pint Glass dropped the floor and they said that. I was like, Scott's people don't drop their drinks. But I dropped on this occasion because, what did you say? It's TikTok. Nobody wants to hear a full song. They just want snippets. So we just do mes instead. Now forget the economics and the legal arguments. That makes me worried about which path music is currently on. Right there we are in an attention economy and I think it's got a little bit wared. We've got a straight up on the tracks. So I think this proposal's got legs. [00:59:56] Dan Runcie: That's that story. That wedding from that, that story from that wedding you went to, that's like the Steve Lacy example, right? He went to his concert. His concert has been doing very well because of his song, bad habit. But then the people that are. At his show, the fans that are there, they could only recite that one instance of the song that's on TikTok. I don't like, not even the whole song, just that one instance of the song that are on TikTok. Granted, Steve Lace has been making music for a while. It wasn't all the fans that were there, but with this influx of him not being able to perform in bigger venues, people wanna hear this song. It's one thing for years we've become accustomed to musicians performing for audiences that only know their hit. Singles are the one that got the music video, but now a lot of them are experiencing hearing their fans only repeat back. That one moment that went viral on TikTok. [01:00:48] Will Page: What's this? It's called verse two. If you stick around long enough, you'll hear a third one as well. You know what? It made me also just play that one off with me here, which is that famous Fleetwood Mac clip that blew up on TikTok. Guy hanging off the back of the truck drinking a bottle of soda Singing Dreams. A 1981 song by Fleetwood Mac. It's 34 seconds, couple of things, firstly, that had about 90 million views, but had 843,000 impersonations on TikTok of people hanging off the back of a truck pretending to sing a Fleetwood Mac song. But secondly, could you have a Gen Z millennial go and pay like 120 pounds to see them at Wembley Stadium, the cost of a streaming service for a year who's only ever consumed 34 seconds of their repertoire? I mean, that's not implausible, right? What type of world are we living in , albums anyone? Sometimes, [01:01:35] Dan Runcie: And sometimes that's all it takes, sometimes that's all it takes, right? In some ways, the fact that we saw that much user-generated content from it, hundreds of thousands as you've just shared in that example, is huge. But it's crazy and this is actually a good transition to talk about AI because so much of the AI music that is relevant and has been top of discussion has been based off of popular artists. We know we're talking about the AI that's based on a viral song from the Drake and the weekend. Granted, that song got a lot of buzz, especially when it first came out. I don't know how many repeat listens it's gotten since, but that's not necessarily the point. None point more so none. Exactly, exactly, right? [01:02:19] Will Page: 20 million streams from 20 million listeners. Nobody streamed it twice, trust me. [01:02:25] Dan Runcie: You gave in at least one stream though, right? You gotta give it a blessing, right? What was your thought? [01:02:33] Will Page: Well, I'm gonna hand the torch over to Jessica Powell, the founder of Audio Shake, who I think is the most exciting company in music tech right now. And point your listeners towards her CK blog posting, which is this whole Drake Week weekend thing. Isn't it just a fuss over a remix? Paraphrasing the title, and it's a beautiful, that woman is inspirational, but she can write. She can write, which is like grabbing you by the luquette lapels and shaking seven shades of shit out of you. She really uses the power of the pen to express her words, to go back to remix culture. So I think inspired from her work. I would say two things here. I think the thorny legal issue that's going on here is consent. We've had remix culture for years. We've had computers involved in music creation for years. We need to see that in a continuation. But if you think about language of deep fakes, if I could manipulate the voice of Dan Ronsey and put that over a record without his consent, that's a red light, you know, I'm not being paranoid here, but there's a line that cannot be crossed. Dan once did not say those words, a computer generated those words. You could be liable for those words. How do we solve that? That's not just music, there's a whole, that's a whole spectrum of issues out there in society today that are gonna be affected by that. Music is a bell weather. That's a microcosm. It's the one that always gets hit first, but the rest are reaction stacked and ready to tumble. But on the positive side, you flip it from risk to opportunity. We think about catalog uplift for a second. That is how can release of new content drive demand in all content? As I've been saying, to record labels since 2018. That's a secret source. That's what you're trying to correct. The purpose of a new album is not just make that new album a splash. Get it to the top of the charts. Make sure you're in today's top hits. It's can you get the new fans to go back and listen to the old content? For some artists, it works. For others it doesn't. Do you fix what's broken or work with what's fixed? The greatest example is an artist that would love to hear on Trapital , Eminem, needs no introduction. When I look at his streaming data, All he needs to roll outta bed fart and burp on Spotify, and his catalog goes through the roof. His new content has got nothing to do with new content. It just inspires people to go back to the late nineties and early nineties and all those releases, which were so big back then. The new content's great. No disrespect, but it's like a reminder that there's this amazing catalog that you want to hear again and again, and it's a valuable catalog because that stuff is already recouped. A catalog dollar is worth way more to the bank account than a frontline dollar. There are other artists who can't make it work, and it's just for me. What happens if AI music solves that secret source of catalog uplift? So, here in the UK, we here at Platoon Studios are next door to Noel Gallica from Oasis, and there was recently an AI generated oasis, which is getting Noel Gallica Liam Gallica back together again. Artificial intelligence achieved this. Human beings can't achieve this. The two brothers don't get along, but AI sold it. That's cool. And Liam gave it a thumbs up. He's like, I love this walking. Good stuff. I'm not offended by ai. I embrace this. What did we see? No, a small spike in the AI version. A big spike in Oasis catalog. So for all the fear and paranoia on this topic, once we realize it can regenerate interest in catalog, I think you'll see the tables turn the sentiment change in our New York millisecond. Literally, they'll be like, I can make bucks out of this. This is a force of good, not a force of bad. [01:06:05] Dan Runcie: I would hope that that's what people take away from this whole narrative is that if you are the owners of the back catalog of Drake in the weekend, you probably saw some type of noticeable bump. Because even if people don't want to hear that song, they're still gonna go back and stream worse behavior, which in my opinion, is one of Drake's best songs because they want to hear that time and time again. Mm-hmm. And I think too, I'm glad you brought up Jessica and Audio Shake. I'm a small investor in the company and one of the things that I think she did well in that piece and others she's done is just laying the table stakes for where we are because. Even if the song itself isn't that good, A, I don't think we're at the point yet. We may get there eventually with AI, but I don't think we're at the point yet where people will listen to this music as a replacement. But if it could remind you of what's already there, that's what's valuable. If you let fans experiment and get them to play around with the tools that are available and upload their music as long as it can fit within certain parameters and isn't violating anything or trying to impersonate the artist itself, you can let them freely create in a way that even 10, 12 years ago, there are all these questions about people putting their songs on putting artist song on YouTube as user-generated content in a video. And over time you two was able to figure out how to get tagging properly so that artists could still be compensated for problem. Exactly. So that is possible, and I do think that eventually we can hopefully get to that point and I'm glad you mentioned Eminem. Two stats that always blow my mind, I'm sure you probably saw this one, but his 2005 Greatest Hits album was the sixth bestselling album, or the sixth bestselling hip hop album. I forget the exact stat, but it was one of the bestselling albums in the UK last year. And Lose Yourself is the most streamed song on Spotify from the two thousands. So when we talk about longevity and we talk about him, I mean, people already knew him as the bestselling artist of the two thousands, but when we see those numbers and you see these catalog sales and all of that, if he ever made a decision, I don't know what his ownership structure, what share he has looks like, but if he ever had a decision, the amount of people that go back to his music to work out and everything else, it's one of the most valuable catalogs of music. [01:08:24] Will Page: And he owns it all right? The rights are reverted back to him. So he's got a hundred percent ownership on that. [01:08:29] Dan Runcie: Oh, wow, I didn't know that. Wow. [01:08:31] Will Page: So, but the bigger point, and I know that the Trapital has a huge audience. It's an honor to address them here and now. And it's a broad church. I mean, the Secretary of State for media and culture in the UK Parliament, it's a big listener, obviously. So I wanna land that point, which is don't hand this off to the lawyers to solve because they're gonna be too risk averse and they can't see the wood from the trees. There's a huge opportunity here. And those same balanced voices like Jessica Powell from Audio Shake, I want them to be rise up so we can counter the risk aversion from the lawyers. Lawyers will do what they do best, but I describe in any workplace, there's two types of people. There's a yo squads and there's a no squads. And lawyers more often than not are no squads. They think of reasons why you can't do something. So I just wanna make sure we balance it with some people from the Yo squad so that we don't choke this off before the party can really start. There's so much opportunity and let me remind your listeners as well, Jimmy Hendrix, the greatest export from America to Britain of all time. He came here in 1966, I believe, maybe 65, 66. And the label that first did a deal with him, the label owner, who I won't name, but I've seen the picture, had a plaque above his office. So this is 1966. Okay? And the plaque said, the day that we can get computers to replace drummers is when we can have a proper music industry. And just keep in mind historical context. Music's a ride and we're on this trip forever. We're not getting off anytime soon. This is just part of that ride, and that's what I loved about Jessica's essay. It's just a reminder that we're just on a ride here and AI is just the next stop on the train line. There's more stops to come. [01:10:12] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Music is always gonna be there. It's like water, right? We have to understand where the technology's heading, but that's where it is. Well Will, before we close [01:10:22] Will Page: Along with the typewriter. [01:10:24] Dan Runcie: Exactly. Exactly. Well Will, before we close things out, it's great. This podcast, the base of it is the business of music, but you yourself are a dj and you have this incredible mix that you put out every year. It was an honor to provide one of the drops forward, but tell us a little bit about the mix and what to expect this year. [01:10:43] Will Page: I'm so excited to, uh, launch this mix that's going out on Friday. Friday is an important day on the calendar. It's gonna be 50 years since Carole King performed in Central Park to a hundred thousand people for free 50 years since release of our album fantasy. And this year's mix is called 2023. Believe in Humanity and That word, you know, believe that expression, believe in Humanity, is the name of one of the songs on that Carole King album. Now, just wheel back for a second, you say, Carole King, most people think of tapestry, a Willie jumper and a cat, and you need a friend with James Taylor. Get it? I mean, that song got me through my third year at university. But if you listen to fantasy, she does funk, and she doesn't just do funk. She does funk better than anyone. You think you're in the song Cho Rathon, and she's doing deep, dirty, aggressive funk. You know me and you, our music tastes are similar. We don't drink tea without sugar. This is tea with lots of sugar. This is incredible funk music, and she just knocks it out the park like, touch me if you can. Best funk record I've heard is Fantasy by Carole King. So I've named the song The Mix 2023 Believe in Humanity. After that song, the mix opens with that, but more importantly, Dan, it opens with a speech from Carole King exclusively to me. And that's for a kid from Edin Pro. He's been doing mixed tapes out of his bedroom since he was going through puberty. I've now got Carole King opening my mix. Do I need to say more? I gotta say more. There's so much more. Nile Rogers is in the mix. Anderson Peck is in the mix. Dan Runcie's got a shout out in the mix, and we've got Kyle O'Leary, who I think is the most promising hip hop artist out there today. We have her and we've messed around with her track players. We've given it the edge of, you know, Dave MacAllum's music. We've given it the edge. There's a hint to your listeners, we've got it all. So, I mean, I put so much emotional time and effort into making these mixes happen and going out for free. They get your DJ slots, but more importantly, it goes back to what makes me wanna work in music, which was a lyric from Mike G and the Jungle Brothers from that famous album done by the forties of Nature, where he said, it's about getting the music across. It's about getting the message across. It's about getting it across without crossing over How can I get art across an audience without delegating its integrity? And it's such an honor to have this mixed drop in this Friday to do just that and to have Carole King open it. I mean, that's, made my year and we're not even into June yet. [01:13:07] Dan Runcie: That's special. That's special. Well, we're excited to drop that and share it as well, especially around the time this episode comes out. So please share that link once it's ready. And Will, as always, it's been a pleasure. We covered so much in this episode. And before we let you go, where can people follow along to stay tuned with you for the next post that you put out for the next thing that you publish? Where can they, stay to follow along? [01:13:31] Will Page: Sure, I mean a couple of of tags. Firstly, the website, tarzaneconomics.com. I mean, I built that to be a resource for industry professionals, for students alike so they can navigate the spaghetti of this music industry. [01:13:43] Dan Runcie: Well soon be pivot.com though. Check me there. You gotta have a website that does well at airports. [01:13:47] Will Page: I got the dopple ganger pivotal economics.com gets you to the same place, so I Oh, nice to resurrect it for the paperback. Lucky I got that too, just in the nick of time. very active on LinkedIn. will page on LinkedIn, you'll find me there. and then also on Twitter it's Will page as well. But yeah, when this mix drops, it'll be great to get feedback from chapter listeners. So please comment and please, please, please share, get the music across without crossing over. [01:14:13] Dan Runcie: Thank you Will, it's been a pleasure. [01:14:15] Will Page: Thank you so much, Dan. [01:14:16] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Will Page returns to the show for a “state of the industry” episode. In last year’s appearance he correctly called out the slowdown in streaming subscriptions, bubbles in web3, and more.


Will believes the value of copyrighted music could hit $45 billion annually when the 2022 numbers are calculated — up $5 billion from 2021, which is already an all-time high for the industry.  


Another massive shift is glocalisation”: the trend of local music dominating the domestic charts, as opposed to Western artists. This phenomenon isn’t just being felt in music, but across every industry, from film to education.


We covered both these trends, plus many more. Here’s all our talking points: 


1:33 Why the music industry is actually worth $40+ billion annually

7:03 Physical music sales on the up and up

10:47 How publisher and labels split up copyright value

16:59 The rise of “glocalisation” will impact every industry

34:39 DSP carnivores vs. herbivores 

40:23 Why video vs. music streaming isn’t a perfect comparison 

46:31 Music as a premium offering in the marketplace 

51:38 How to improve streaming royalties  

1:06:05 AI music benefits that goes overlooked 

1:10:07 Will’s latest mix pays homage to Carole King


Glocalisation report: 

https://www.lse.ac.uk/european-institute/Assets/Documents/LEQS-Discussion-Papers/EIQPaper182.pdf


Will Page's 2023 Believe in Humanity:

https://www.mixcloud.com/willpagesnc/2023-believe-in-humanity/


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Will Page, @willpageauthor


This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 


TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Will Page: I put so much emotional time and effort into making these mixes happen and going out for free.

They get your DJ slots, but more importantly, it goes back to what makes me wanna work in music, which was a lyric from Mike G and the Jungle Brothers from that famous album done by the forties of Nature, where he said, it's about getting the music across. It's about getting the message across. It's about getting it across without crossing over.

How can I get art across an audience without delegating its integrity? And it's such an honor to have this mixed drop in this Friday I mean, that's, made my year and we're not even into June yet.

[00:00:30] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:56] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is all about the state of the music industry, and we're joined by the One and Only, Will Page. He is a fellow at the London School of Economics. He's an author of Tarzan Economics and Pivot, and he is the former chief economist at Spotify. Will's second time on the podcast. Now, the first time we talked all about the future of streaming and where things are going in music, and we picked that conversation, backed up.

We talked about a bunch of trends including the glocalisation of music, which is from a new report that Will had recently put out. We also talked about why he values the music industry to be close to a 40 billion industry, which is much higher than a lot of the reports about recorded music itself.

And we also talk about a bunch of the topics that are happening right now, whether it's ai, how streaming should be priced, the dynamic between record labels and streaming services, and a whole lot more love. This conversation will always brings it with these conversations, so I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's our chat.

[00:02:00] Dan Runcie: All right, today we have the one and only Will Page with us who is recording from a beautiful location. I don't know if you're listening to the pod you can't see, but will tell us where you are right now.

[00:02:09] Will Page: So great to be back like a boomerang on Trapital. Dan, and I'm coming to you from the Platoon Studios. Part of the Apple Company Platoon is our label services company, which is owned by Apple. They're doing great stuff with the artists like Amapiano music from South Africa. And the best place I can describe to you here, it's like a Tardus.

Have you've ever seen Dr. Who? There's a tiny door in this tall yard music complex in North London just behind Kings Cross. When you enter that tiny door, you enter this maze of the well class spatial audio recording studios of Apple. And it's an honor they've given me this location to come to Trapital today.

[00:02:41] Dan Runcie: Well we're gonna make the best of it here and it's always great to have you on, cuz Last year, last year's episode felt like a state of the industry episode, and that's where I wanna start things off this year with this episode.

A couple months ago, you put out your post in your Tarzan economics where you said that this industry is not a 2020 5 billion industry, the way others say. Mm-hmm. You say, no, this is almost a 40 billion industry. So let's break it down. How did you arrive there and what's the backstory?

[00:03:12] Will Page: I get goosebumps when you say that you think like 10 years ago we were talking about a 14 billion business and now it's a 40, you know, skews a slurred Scottish pronunciation, but let's just be clear from one four to four zero, how did that happen?

Well the origins of that work, and you've been a great champion of it, Dan, is for me to go into a cave around about October, November and calculate the global value of copyright and copyright is not just what the record labels publish, that famous IFPIGMR report that everyone refers to, but it's what collecting studies like ask F and BMI collect what publishers generates through direct licensing.

You have to add A plus B plus C labels, plus collecting societies plus publishers together. Then the complex part, ripping out the double counting and doing all the add-backs, and you get to this figure of 39.6 billion, which as you say, you round it up, it begins with a four. And I think there's a few things that we can kind of get into on this front.

I think firstly we should discuss the figure. I'll you a few insights there. Secondly, I think we should discuss the division. And then thirdly, I want to cover the physical aspect as well. So if you think about the figure, we've got 39.6 billion. We know it's growing. I think what's gonna be interesting when I go back into that cave later this year to redo that number, it's gonna be a lot bigger.

Dan, I'll see it here on Trapital First. I think a 40 billion business in 2021 is gonna be closer to a 45 billion business in 2022. And one of the reasons why it's not labels and streaming, it's a combination of publishers are reporting record collections, essentially they're playing catch up with labels, booking deals that perhaps labels booked a year earlier.

And collecting studies are gonna get back to normal after all the damage of the pandemic. And when you drive those factors in where you have a much bigger business than we had before. So for the people listening to your podcast who are investing in copyright, this party's got a waiter run. You know, don't jump off the train yet cause this thing is growing

[00:05:18] Dan Runcie: And the piece I want to talk about there is the publishing side of this. If you look at the breakdown of the numbers you have, the publishing is nearly, publishing plus is nearly 13 billion itself. The major record labels own most of the largest publishers right now. Why isn't this number just automatically included? Wouldn't it be in everyone's advantage to include the fact that yes, Universal Music Group and Universal Music Publishing Group are together, part of the entity that make this, whether it's them, it's Warner Chapel, it's others. Why isn't this just the top line number that's shared in all of the other reports?

[00:05:56] Will Page: It would be nice if it was, and indeed, I think the publishing industry around about 2001 used to do this. They haven't done it since. But it's like spaghetti. It's the best way I can describe it. I mean, how do you measure publisher income? You know, is it gross receipts by the publisher? Is it the publisher plus the collecting Saudi? That is money that went straight to the songwriter and didn't touch the publisher. So what the publisher holds onto what we call an industry, a net publisher, shares all these weird ways of measuring this industry that we have to be clear on.

And it's, not easy. but I think what we do in the report is we try and make it bite size. We try and make it digestible to work out how much of that publisher's business came through, CMOs, the S gaps and BMIs this X over here PS music and how much do they bring in directly? And that allows you to understand a couple of things.

Firstly, how do they compare vi to vis labels in terms of their overall income? And secondly, how do they compare when they go out to market directly, let's say putting a sync and a TV commercial or movie versus generating money through collective licensing that is radio or TV via ASCAP or bmr. So you get an interpretation of how these publishers are making those numbers work as well.

[00:07:03] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And then when we are able to break it down, we see a few numbers that roll up into it. So from a high level, at least what you shared from 2021, we have that 25.8 billion number from the recorded side. So that does fall in line with what we see from what the IPIs and others share. 10 billion Sure.

From the publishing. And then you do have, the next 3.5 and then a little sliver there for royalty free and for the publishers' direct revenue that doesn't come from the songwriters. The next piece though, within the elements of how all of the revenue flows into that. We've talked a lot about streaming and we've talked, we'll get into streaming in a little bit, but I wanna talk about the physical side cause that was the second piece that you mentioned.

We've all talked about vinyl, but it's not just vinyl. So could you talk a bit about where the trends are right now with physical sales and why this is such a huge factor for this number?

[00:07:56] Will Page: Who would've thought on a Trapital podcast in May, 2023. We'll be talking about physical as a second topic on the agenda, but it's worth it. I mean, it's not a rounding era anymore. It's not chump change. in America, physical revenues largely vinyl outpaced the growth of streaming for the second year straight. It's not as big as streaming, but it's growing faster and it has been growing faster for two years now. That's crazy. Here in the uk the value of physical revenues to the UK music industry has overtaken the value of physical to Germany.

Quick bit of history. For years, decades, Germans used to buy CDs. that's fallen off a cliff. They've given up on CDs. Whereas over here in Britain, we've all started buying vinyl again. So the value of vinyl in Britain is worth more than the value of CDs to Germans, that type of stuff you didn't expect to see.

And if you go out to Asia, you see the CD market still strong. You've still got people who buy more than one copy of the same cd, of the same band. Don't ask me to explain the rationale for that, but it happens and it moves numbers. But after all this, when the dust settles, I mean a couple of observations, all the data to me is suggesting that 55, 60% of vinyl buyers don't actually own a record player.

So I think it was Peter Drucker who said, the seller really knows what they're selling, and I don't think you're selling intellectual property or music cop right here. What we're actually selling is merchandise, you know, Taylor Swift, I got an email from Taylor Swift team saying they've got a marble blue vinyl coming out this week.

Now we're talking about vinyl in the same way we used to talk about stone wash jeans, marble blue. This is like the fourth version of the same 11 songs priced at 29 99. Let's just figure that out for a second. I'm willing to give you 10 bucks a month to, access a hundred million songs on streaming services, but I'm also, it's the same person.

I'm also willing to give you 30 bucks to buy just 10 of them. This is expensive music and I might not even be listening to it cause I don't even have a record player.

[00:09:55] Dan Runcie: This is the fascinating piece about how we're calculating this stuff because the vinyl sales and all of that has been reported widely as a great boom to the industry and it has been.

We've seen the numbers and in a lot of ways it brings people back to the era of being able to sell the hard copy of the thing itself, but it's much closer to selling a t-shirt or selling a sweatshirt or selling some type of concert merchant. It actually is the actual physical medium itself. So it'll be fascinating to see how that continues to evolve, how that embraces as well. On your side though, as a personal listener, do you buy any vinyls yourself that you don't listen to, that you just keep on display or?

[00:10:34] Will Page: It's like your shoe collection, isn't it? Yes, right. Is the answer to that. But no, I mean, I will say that I got 3000 fi funk records in the house and they're all in alphabetical chronological order.

So if they haven't been listened to, at least I know where to find them.

[00:10:48] Dan Runcie: That's fair. That makes sense. So let's talk about the third piece of this, and that's the division of this. So you have the B2C side and you have the B2B side. Can we dig into that?

[00:10:59] Will Page: Sure. this is, I think the backdrop for a lot more of the sort of thorny conversations happening in the music industry is now, you may have heard that in the UK we've had a three year long government inquiry into our business.

We had the regulator turn over the coals, and so there's a lot of interest in how you split up this 40 billion dollar piece of pie. who gets what? And the division I'm gonna talk about here is labels an artist on one side. Songwriters and publishers on the other side as it currently stands, I would keep it simple and say two thirds of that 40 billion dollars goes to the record label and the artist, one third goes to the publisher and the songwriter.

Now, when I first did this exercise back in 2014, it was pretty much 50 50, and when you see things which are not 50 50 in life, you're entitled to say, is that fair? Is it fair that when a streaming service pays a record label a dollar, it pays the publisher and the songwriter around 29 cents? If you're a publisher, a songwriter, you might say, that's unfair, cuz I'm getting less than them.

I have preferences, issues, and I have any issues with this division. Well, let's flip it around. If you look at how B2B world works, licensing at the wholesale level, let's say you're licensing the bbc, for example, if your song's played on the bbc, you're gonna get 150 pounds for a play. 90 pounds goes to the songwriter and the publisher, 60 pounds goes to the artist and a record label.

Now, is that fair? Why does the publisher win in the B2B market? By the record, label wins in the B2C market. And the one, the lesson I want to give your listeners is one from economics, and it's rarely taught university these days, but back in 1938, 1939, in a small Polish town called la. Now part of the Ukraine, ironically, free Polish mathematicians sat in a place called a Scottish Cafe, ironic for me, and invented a concept called Fair Division.

And the question they posed was, let's imagine there's a cake and there's two people looking at that cake getting hungry. There's Dan Runcie over in the Bay Area and there's Will page back in Edinburgh. What's the best way to divide that cake up? And the conclusion they came up with is you give Will page, the knife.

Aha, I've got the power to cut the cake. But you give Dan Runcie the right to choose which half. Damn, I've gotta make that cut really even otherwise, Dan's gonna pick the bigger half and I'll lose out. And this divider two model gave birth to the subject of fair Division and it simply asked, what makes a fair division fairer?

How can I solve a preference? How can I solve for envy? I want that slice, not that slice. I'm unhappy cause Dan got that slice and not that slice. There's a whole bunch of maths in this. We had a third person that gets more complex. But I just wanna sow that seed for your listeners, which is when we ask questions like, why is it the label gets a dollar and the publisher gets 29 cents?

There's gotta be some rationale why you know who bets first? Is it the label that bets first or the publisher who commits most? Is it label that commits most marketing spend or the publisher? These types of questions do with risk, often help answer questions of fair division, or to quote the famous Gangstar song, who's gonna take the weight?

Somebody's gotta take a risk when you play this game, and perhaps there's a risk reward trade off, which is telling us who gets what Share of the spoils.

[00:14:15] Dan Runcie: Let's unpack this a little bit because it's easy to see. May not be fair, but it's easy to see why the record labels get preference on the B2C side because as I mentioned before, the record labels have acquired a lot of the publishers, and especially in the streaming era, they were prioritizing that slice of the pie, their top line, as opposed to what essentially is the subsid subsidiary of their business, the publishing side.

Why is it flipped with sync? Well, how did that dynamic end up being that way?

[00:14:47] Will Page: That's an anomaly, which is actually blatantly obvious. You just don't think about it. And the way it was taught to me is anyone can record a song, but only one person can own a song. So I think, let's give an example of, I don't know, a Beach Boy song where I could ask for the original recording of that Beach Boy song to be used in the sync.

Or I could get a cover band. So let's say I got a hundred thousand dollars to clear the rights of that song, and the initial split should be 50 50. If a band is willing to do a version of it for 10,000, the publisher can claim 90,000 of the budget and get the option. If the record label objects and says, well, I wish you used a master.

Well, you got a price under the 10,000 to get the master in. So this kind of weird thing of bargaining power, if you ever hear. Let me scratch that again. Let me start from the top. Let me give you a quick example, Dan, to show how this works. One of my favorite sort of movies to watch when you're Bored and killing Time is The Devil's Swear, Prada great film.

And then that film is a song by Seal called Crazy, incredible song, timeless. That guy has, you know, timeless hits to his name, but it's not him recording it. Now, what might have happened in that instance is the film producer's got a hundred thousand to get the song in the movie, and he's looking to negotiate how much you pay for publishing, how much you pay for label.

Now the label is getting, you know, argumentative, wanting more and more, and the publisher is happy with a certain fee. Well, the film producer's got an option. Pay the publisher of the a hundred thousand, pay him 90,000, given the lion share of the deal. And then just turn the label and say, screw you. I'm gonna get a covers bant and knock me out.

A decent version of it. And this happens all the time in TV films, in commercials, you'll hear covers of famous songs. And quite often what's happening there is you gotta pay the publisher the lion share of your budget and then just cough up some small chains to the covers bant to knock out a version.

And then, so just a great reminder, Dan of anyone can record a song, but only one person can own the song that is the author. And that's why negotiating and bargaining power favors publishes in sync over the record labels.

[00:16:59] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And as you're saying that, I was thinking through five, six other examples of cover songs I've seen in many popular TV shows and movies.

And this is exactly why?

[00:17:08] Will Page: It's always car commercials. For some reason, every car commercial's got cover in a famous song. You think, remember that weird Scottish guy down Ronie Trapital? Yeah. That's what's happened. The publishers pool the rug from under the record label's feet at negotiation table.

Another super important observation about the glocalisation trend, Dan, is I'm gonna take one of those 10 countries as our spotlight, Poland. Now the top 10 in Polands or Polish, the top 20 in Poland, or Polish. In fact, if you go to the top 40, it's pretty much all Polish bands performing in Polish, and you could say that's localization.

But stop the bus. Most of those acts are performing hip hop, which is by itself a US genre. So perhaps we've got glocalisation of genre, but localization of language and artist. And that's a very important distinction for us to dissect. And perhaps it's for the anthropologist, the sociologist, to work out what's going on here.

But it's not as straightforward as it's just local music. It's local music, but it's global genres, which is driving us forward.

[00:18:08] Dan Runcie: And that's a great point for the people that work at record labels and other companies making decisions too, because there's been so much talk about hip hop's decline. But so much of that is focused on how this music is categorized and a lot of it's categorized solely on.

What is considered American hip hop. But if you look at the rise of music in Latin America, which has been one of the fastest growing regions in the world, most of that music is hip hop. Bad Bunny considers himself a hip hop artist. You just brought up this example of Polish hip hop being one of the most popular genres there.

So when we think about. How different genres get categorized, which genres get funding. Let's remember that key piece because hip hop is this culture and it's global, and that's gonna continue. So let's make sure that we are not taking away from a genre that is really one of the most impactful and still puts up numbers if we're categorizing it in the right way.

[00:19:04] Will Page: Damn straight. I mean, I think genres are often like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole and in a paper published by London School of Economics, I was honored to use that line that I think I said on trap last time, which is rap is something you do. Hip hop is something you live. Rap could be the genre, hip hop could be the lifestyle.

Maybe what those Polish acts getting to the top of the charts of doing is representing a lifestyle, but they're doing it in their mother tongue.

[00:19:28] Dan Runcie: Well said. Agreed. Well, let's switch gears a bit. One topic that I wanna talk about, and I actually gave a talk recently, and I referenced you from this term, and its of music, was the glocalisation of music and why this is happening and what it means for Western music specifically in the us. But first, if you could define that term and explain why this is so important in music right now.

[00:19:53] Will Page: Well, I'm so excited to be on Trapital talking about this because we are now officially published by London School of Economics, so I'm gonna make my mom and dad proud of me. At last Backstory, paperback of my book, guitars in Economics, retitled to Pivot. Apparently WH Smith's Travel and Hudson Travel said books with economics in their titles Don't sell an airport.

So we've rebranded the whole book to Pivot and it's in airports, which is a result. that book, that paperback came out on the 6th of February and that night I was on the BBC one show and they had this great happy, clappy family friendly story. They wanted to bounce off me. They said, Hey, will, Isn't it great that the top 10 songs in Britain last year were all British ex?

For the first time in 60 years, Britain got a clean sweep of the top 10 in the music charts. And I said, curb your enthusiasm because we're seeing it elsewhere. The top 10 in Germany, were all German. Top 10 in Italy, all Italian, ditto France, deto Poland. And if you go to Spain, the top 10, there were all Spanish language, but largely Latin American.

So it's not just a British thing that we've seen this rise of local music on global streaming platforms. We're seeing it everywhere, cue some gulps and embarrassments live in the TV studio. But I made my point and I came out of that interview thinking. Well that stunned them. It's gonna stu more people.

And I said about working on a paper called glocalisation, which with a Scottish accent, it's hard to pronounce. Let's see how you get on with it. Not localization and not glocalisation. Emerging to by definition and by practice glocalisation. I teamed up with this wonderful author, Chris Riva, who'd be a great guest on your show.

He did a wonderful blog piece you may have read, called Why is There No Key Changes in Music anymore? It's a really beautiful piece of music writing and there isn't. Nobody uses key changes in the conclusion of songs. And we set out to do this academic study to explain to the world what's been happening in music and why it's relevant to everyone else.

And what we saw across 10 European countries was strong evidence of local music dominating the top of the charts in these local markets on global platforms. Now history matters here. We didn't see this with local High street retailers, America, British, Canadian music dominated those charts. We still don't see it in linear broadcast models like radio and television, you know, it's still English language repertoire dominating those charts. But when it comes to global streaming, unregulated free market, global streaming, we see this phenomenal effect where local music is topping the charts. And you know, you look at what does it mean for us English language countries like ourselves?

It means things get a little bit tough. It means exporting English language repertoire into Europe becomes harder and harder. Maybe I'll just close off with this quite frightening thought, which is Britain is one of only three net exporters of music in the world. The other two being your country, United States and Sweden.

Thanks to a phenomenal list of Swedish songwriters and artists. And I can't think of the last time this country's broken a global superstar act since Dua Lipa in 2017. Dan, we used to knock them out one, two a year. 2017 was a long time ago, and it's been pretty dry since.

[00:23:13] Dan Runcie: And that's a great point for the people that work at record labels and other companies making decisions too, because there's been so much talk about hip hop's decline. But so much of that is focused on how this music is categorized and a lot of it's categorized solely on.

What is considered American hip hop. But if you look at the rise of music in Latin America, which has been one of the fastest growing regions in the world, most of that music is hip hop. Bad Bunny considers himself a hip hop artist, you just brought up this example of Polish hip hop being one of the most popular genres there.

So when we think about, how different genres get categorized, which genres get funding. Let's remember that key piece because hip hop is this culture and it's global, and that's gonna continue. So let's make sure that we are not taking away from a genre that is really one of the most impactful and still puts up numbers if we're categorizing it in the right way.

[00:24:07] Will Page: Damn straight. I mean, I think genres are often like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole and in a paper published by London School of Economics, I was honored to use that line that I think I said on trap last time, which is rap is something you do. Hip hop is something you live. Rap could be the genre, hip hop could be the lifestyle.

Maybe what those Polish acts getting to the top of the charts of doing is representing a lifestyle, but they're doing it in their mother tongue.

[00:24:32] Dan Runcie: Well said. Agreed. This is something that's been top of mind for me as well because technology in general has a way of making regions and making people in particular regions closer together than it does making the world bigger. It's like in, in a sense, technology can make the world seem bigger, but it actually makes it seem smaller, right? And I think that algorithms and bubbles that come from that are another symptom of this.

But this is going to have huge implications for Western music. You mentioned it yourself. All of these markets that are used to being export markets, when they no longer have the strength to be able to have those exports, how does that then change the underlying product? How does that then change the budgets, the expectations of what you're able to make? Because if you're still trying to maintain that same top line revenue, you're still trying to maintain those airwaves you have, it's gonna cost you more money to do that, because you can't rely on the few Western superstars that you have to get, that you have to have equivalent of a superstar or at least a middle tier star in every region that you once had strong market share that you could export in.

And it's gonna change cost structures. It's gonna change focus. And a lot of these expansions that we've seen of record labels, especially Western record labels, having strong footprints in different regions across the world, they're not just gonna need to have presence, they're gonna need to have strong results.

And in many ways, try to rival the own companies that are in those comp, in those regions, the homegrown record labels, because every country is trying to do their own version of this and it's gonna be tight. This is one of the challenges that I think is only gonna continue to happen.

[00:26:14] Will Page: You're opening up a real can of worms. I get it. Pardon to your listeners, we're getting excited here. Day of publication, first time we've been able to discuss it on air, but I know I'm onto something huge here and you've just illustrated why just a few remarks. One, some of the quotes that we have in the paper were just phenomenal. We have Apple included in the paper. We have Amazon, Steve Boom, the head of that media for Amazon in charge of not just music, but Twitch audio books, the whole thing. He's looking at all these media verticals. He makes this point where he says, as the world becomes more globalized, we become more tribal. Stop right there, as he just nailed it.

What's happening here? It's The Economist can only explain so much. This is what's so deep about this topic. I wanna toss it to the anthropologist of sociologists to make sense of what I've uncovered, but it's massive. Now let's take a look at what's happening down on the street level with the record labels and the consumers. You know, the record labels are making more money and they're devolving more power to the local off seats. You know the headcount in the major labels, local off season, Germany, France, and Vietnam or wherever is doubled in the past five years. It hasn't doubled in the global headquarters. That's telling you something.

If you look at how labels do their global priority list, maybe every month, here's 10 songs we want you to prioritize globally. So I had a look at how this is done, and across the year I saw maybe 8, 10, 12 artists in total, and there's 120 songs. There's not that many artists. You think about how many local artists are coming out the gate every week hitting their local labels or local streaming staff, up with ideas, with showcases and so on.

Not a lot of global priority. Then you flip it and you think about the consumer, you know, they've had linear broadcast models for 70 years where you get what you're given. I'm gonna play this song at this time and you're gonna have to listen to it. FM radio, TV shows now they're empowered with choice and they don't want that anymore.

They want what's familiar. What comforts them. They want their own stars performing in their own mother tongue topping those charts. So this has got way to go. Now, a couple of flips on this. Firstly, what does this mean for artists? And then I'm gonna take it out of media, but let's deal with artists.

Let's imagine a huge festival in Germany. 80,000 people now festival can now sell out with just German X, no problem at all. So when the big American X or British X commanded like a million dollars a headlining fee, you wanna go play that festival. That promoter can turn around and say, sorry man, I can't generate any more money by having you on my bill.

How much are you gonna pay me to get on stage? Price maker, price taker? You see what happens. And then the last thing, and there's so much more in this paper for your listeners to get to, and let's please link to it and you'll take, I'll take questions live on your blog about it as well, but. There's a great guy called Chris Deering, the father of the Sony PlayStation. Did you play the Sony PlayStation back in the day? Were you're a fan of the PlayStation.

[00:29:08] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. PS one and PS two. Yeah. Okay.

[00:29:11] Will Page: You, oh, so you, you're an OG PlayStation fella. So he's the father of the PlayStation and launching the PlayStation in the nineties and into the nineties. He offered us observation, which is when they launched a SingStar, which was karaoke challenge.

In the PlayStation, he says, we always discussed why the Swedish version of SingStar was more popular in Sweden than the English version Science. Intuitive enough. Let me break it down. Gaming back then was interactive music was not, you interacted with your PlayStation, that's why you killed so much time with it. Music was just a CD and a plastic case that broke your fingernails when you tried to open it. That's how the world worked back then and gaming offered you choice. I could try and do karaoke with those huge global English language hits where I could go further down the chart and buy the Swedish version and sing along to less well known Swedish hits. And the consumer always picked the Swedish version. So as a bellwether, as a microcosm, what I think Chris Ding was teaching us was we saw this happening in gaming long before you started seeing it happen with music. 20 years ago when there was interactive content, which gaming was, music wasn't, and consumers had a choice, which gaming offered a music didn't.

They went local. Today, Dan, we're dealing with music lists, A interactive, and B offers choice. And what we're seeing is local cream is rising to the top of the charts.

[00:30:33] Dan Runcie: And we're seeing this across multimedia as well. We're seeing it in the film industry too. Even as recent as five, 10 years ago, you release any of the blockbuster movies that were successful in the us, almost all of them had some overseas footprint.

Some of them definitely vary based on the genre, but they were always there. But now China specifically had been such a huge market for the Hollywood and Box office specifically, but now they're starting to release more of their own high ed movies and those are attracting much more audiences than our export content can one.

Two, the Chinese government in general is just being very selective about what they allow and what they don't allow. And then three, with that, that's really only leaving certain fast and furious movies and Avatar. That's it. The Marvel movies are hit and missed depending on what they allow, what they don't allow, and how, and it's just crazy to see the implications that has had for Marvel Studios for everyone else in Hollywood as well.

When you think about it, and we're seeing this across multimedia, I think there's a few trends here that makes me think about, one is. Population growth in general and just where those trends are and how different corporations can approach the opportunity. Because I look at Nigeria, you look at Ethiopia, these are some of the fastest growing countries in the world.

And you look at the music that is rising more popular than ever, whether it's Amapiano or it's Afrobeats, that's only going to continue to grow. And that's only from a few regions in the huge continent of Africa. So when we're thinking about where success is gonna come from, where that lines up with infrastructure, people have been seeing it for years.

But the reason that we're seeing the growth in Africa, the growth in Latin America, the growth in a lot of these markets is this trend of glocalisation and it's only going to increase. So if we're thinking about where we wanna invest dollars, where we wanna build infrastructure in the future, we not just being folks that live in the western world, but also elsewhere in the world, this is where things are heading.

[00:32:37] Will Page: Let me come in down the middle and then throw it out to the side. So, Ralph Simon, a longtime mentor of mine, is quoted in the paper and where he's actually gonna moderate the address here at the Mad Festival here in London, which is for the marketing and advertising community here, where he says, what you've uncovered here that headwind of glocalisation is gonna affect the world of marketing and advertising this time next year.

That's what will be the buzzword in their head. So if you think about, I don't know, a drinks company like Diagio, maybe they've got a globalized strategy and a globalized marketing budget. When they start seeing that you gotta go fishing where the fish are and the fish are localized, they're gonna devolve that budget and devolve that autonomy down to local offices. So the wheels of localization, this rise of local, over global, they've only just got started, if I've called it right. We're onto something way bigger than a 20 minute read LSE discussion paper. This goes deep, deep and far beyond economics. But then you mentioned as well China, I mean just one offshoot observation there, which is to look at education.

If you look at the UK university system, about a third, if not more, of it is subsidized by the Chinese government and Chinese students here. Great for business, slightly dubious in its business, besties, charging one student more than another student for the same product. But that's what we do over here.

And I recently, we made a fellow of Edmar University's Futures Institute, which is an honor to me, you know, gets me back home more often. Fine. And I was learning from them that. The quality of students coming from China to study here in Britain and across Europe is getting worse and worse. Why? Cuz the best students have got the best universities in China.

They no longer need to travel. So there's a classic export import dilemma of, for the past 10, 15 years, universities have built a complete treasury coffer base of cash around selling higher education to the Chinese. And now the tables are turning. I don't need to send my students to you universities anymore.

I'll educate them here. Thank you very much. So, like I say, this stuff is a microcosm. It's got a can of worms that can open in many different directions

[00:34:39] Dan Runcie: And it's gonna touch every industry that we know of to some extent, especially as every industry watches to be global to some extent. This is going to be a big topic moving forward.

Let's shift gears a bit. One of the terms that was really big for us. That came from our podcast we did last year. We talked about herbivores and we talked about carnivores, and we talked about them in relation to streaming. We haven't touched on streaming yet, and this will be our opportunity to dig down into it, but mm-hmm.

For the listeners, can we revisit where that came from, what that means, and also where this is heading? What does this mean for music streaming right now as it relates to the services and competition?

[00:35:24] Will Page: Well, when I first came on Trapital, that was in a small Spanish village of Cayo De Suria and I didn't think I'd come up with an expression that would go viral from a small village in Spain to be, you know, quoted from in Canada, in America.

And Dan, this is quite hilarious. we have a new secretary of state of culture here in the UK. The right Honorable MP, Lucy Fraser KG, Smart as a whip. Brilliant. And when I first met her, you know what the first thing she said was, I listened to you on Trapital. I wanted to ask you about this thing you've got going called herbivores and carnivores.

So right the way through to the corridors of power, this expression seems to have traveled. What are we talking about? Well, the way I framed it was for 20 years we've had these streaming services, which essentially grow without damaging anyone else. Amazon is up. Bigger subscriber numbers. Apple's got bigger subscriber numbers.

YouTube and Nancy's bigger subscriber numbers. And then Spotify. Nancy's bigger subscriber numbers. Everyone's growing each other's gardens. That's fine. That's herbivores. What happens when you reach that saturation point where there's no more room to grow? The only way I can grow my business is stealing some of yours.

That's carnivores. And the greatest example is simply telcos. We're all familiar with telcos. We all pay our broadband bills. How do telcos compete? Everybody in your town's got a broadband account, so the only way you can compete is by stealing someone else's business. The only way here in Britain Virgin Media can compete is by stealing some of skies.

The only way that at and t competes is by stealing some of com. So that's carnival competition. Now, the key point for Trapital listeners is we don't know what this chapter is gonna read like cuz we've never had carus pronounce that word correctly. Carus behavior before. We've never seen a headline that said, Spotify's down 2 million subs and apple's up 2 million, or Amazon's up 3 million and you know, YouTube is down 3 million.

We don't know what that looks like. So I think it's important for Trapital to start thinking about logical, plausible scenarios. You kick a one obvious one, which is again, a lesson from the telcos. When we do become carnivores, do we compete on price or do we compete on features? Let me wheel this back a second, you know, we'll get into pricing in more depth later. But downward competition on price tends to be how carnivores compete, and that'll be a fascinating development given that we've not seen much change in price in 22 years in counting or as we saw with Apple, they roll out spatial audio, they charge more for it, they've got a new feature, and they charge more for that feature.

So do we see downward competition blood on the carpet price competition, or do we see. Upward competition based on features. I don't know which one it's gonna be. It's not for me to call it. I don't work for any of these companies. I've worked with these companies, but I don't work for any of them directly.

But we have to start discussing these scenarios. How's this chapter gonna read when we start learning of net churn amongst the four horseman streaming services that's out there. It's gonna be a fascinating twist, and I'm beginning, Dan, I'm beginning to see signs of con behavior happening right now, to be honest with you.

I can see switchers happening across the four, so I think we're getting there in the US and the UK. What are those signs you see? I'm just seeing that in terms of subscriber growth, it's a lot bumpier than before. Before it is just a clear trajectory. The intelligence I was getting was, everyone's up, no one needs to bother.

Now I flag, you know, I signed the siren. I'm beginning to see, you know, turbulence in that subscriber growth. Someone could be down one month, up the next month. Maybe that's just a little bit of churn. The ending of a trial period, you don't know. But now for me, the smoke signals are some of those services are seeing their gross stutter.

Others are growing, which means we could start having some switching. I can add to that as well. Cross usage is key here. I really hammered this home during my 10 years at Spotify, which is to start plotting grids saying, who's using your service? This person, that person, and next person now ask what other services are they using?

And some data from America suggests that one in four people using Apple music are also using Spotify. And one in four people using Spotify are also using Apple Music. Cross usage confirmed. So if that was true, what do you make of that? With a public spending squeeze? With inflation, with people becoming more cost conscious in the economy with less disposable income, maybe they wanna wheel back from that and use just one, not two. And that's where we could start seeing some net churn effects taking place as well. So, you know, imagine a cross usage grid in whatever business you're working on. If your Trapital listeners and ask that question, I know who's using my stuff, what else are they using? Um, that's a really, really important question to ask to work out how this carnivore scenario is gonna play out.

How are we gonna write this chapter?

[00:40:23] Dan Runcie: This is interesting because it reminds me of the comparisons that people often make to video streaming and some of the dynamics there where prices have increased over the years. I know we've talked about it before to tend to a 12 years ago Netflix was cheaper than Spotify was from a monthly, US price group subscription.

And now tough, tough. It's right. And now it's nearly twice the price of the current price point. That it is. The difference though, when we're talking about when you are in that carnival, when you're in that carnival market, what do you compete on? Features or price? Video streaming, you can compete on features essentially because the content is differentiated.

If you want to watch Wednesday, that Netflix series is only one platform that you can watch it on. Yeah, you need to have that Netflix subscription, but in music it's different because if you wanna listen to SZA's SOS album, that's been dominating the charts. You can listen to it on any of these services.

So because there are fewer and fewer limitations, at least, if your goal, main goal from a consumption perspective is to listen to the music, how do you then differentiate, which I do think can put more pressure on price, which is very interesting because there is this broader pricing debate that's happening right now about why prices should be higher.

And we've seen in the past six plus months that Apple has at least raised its prices. Amazon has done the same, at least for new subscribers. Spotify has announced that it will but hasn't yet and this is part of that dynamic because on one hand you have these broader economic trends as you're calling them out, but on the other hand you do have the rights holders and others pushing on prices to increase.

And then you have the dynamic between the rights holders and then the streaming services about who would then get the increased revenue that comes. So there's all of these fascinating dynamics that are intersecting with this her before shift to carnivores

[00:42:23] Will Page: For sure. Let me just go around the block of those observations you offered us. All relevant, all valid and just, you know, pick off a few of them. If we go back to Netflix, I think Netflix has a, not a herbivore. I'm gonna talk about alcohol here cause it's late in the day in the UK. A gin and tonic relationship with its competitors. That is, if Dan Runcie doesn't pay for any video streaming service, and let's say Netflix gets you in and I'm the head of Disney plus, I say, well, thank you Netflix.

That makes it easier for me to get Dan to pay for Disney Plus too. They compliment each other. They are genuine complimentary goods. They might compete for attention. You know who's got the best exclusive content, who's gonna renew the friends deal, whatever, you know, who's gonna get Fresh Prince of Bel Air on?

That could be a switch or piece of content too, but when you step back from it, it's gin and tonic. It's not different brands of gin, that's really important technology, which is they've grown this market of video streaming. They've increased their prices and the same person's paying for 2, 3, 4 different packages.

If I added up, I'm giving video streaming about 60 quid a month, and I'm giving music streaming 10 and the sixties going up and the music's staying flat. So it's bizarre what's happened in video streaming because the content is exclusive. Back to, how do music carnivores play out again? Could we see it play out in features?

I listen to airport cause they've got classical and I listen to Spotify because it got discovered weekly. Is that plausible? Personally, I don't buy it, but you can sow that seed and see if it takes root, as well. I think just quick pause and Apple as well. I think two things there. They've launched Apple Classical. That's a very, very good example of differentiating a product because it's a standalone app like podcast as a standalone app. The way I look at that is you can go to the supermarket and buy all your shopping. You can get your Tropicana orange juice, you can get your bread, get your eggs, get your meat, get your fish or you could go to a specialist butcher and buy your meat there instead. Apple Classical for me is the specialist butcher as opposed to the supermarket, and they're offering both in the same ecosystem. It'd be incredible if they preload out the next iOS update and give 850 million people an Apple classical app.

Imagine if they did that for Jazz, my friend. Imagine if they did that for jazz. Just if Apple's listening, repeat, do that for jazz. So there's one example. The other example from Apple is to go back to bundling. You know we talk about 9.99 a month. I chewed your ear off about this topic last time I was on your show.

Just to remind your listeners, where did it come from? This price point in pound Sterling, in Euro in dollar that we still pay for on the 20th of May, 2023. It came from a Blockbuster video rental card that is when reps, he got its license on the 3rd of December, 2001. Not long after nine 11, a record label exec said if it cost nine 90 nines, rent movies from Blockbuster.

That's what it should cost to rent music. And 22 years plus on, we're still there, ran over. But what does this mean for bumbling strategies? How much does Apple really charge? If I give $30 a month for Apple One, which is tv, music, gaming news, storage and fitness, all wrapped up into one price. Now, there's a famous Silicon Valley investi called James Barksdale.

Dunno if you've heard of him from the Bay Area where you're based. And he had this famous quote where he said, gentlemen, there's only two ways to make money in business. Bundling and unbundling. What we've had for the past 10 years is herbivores. Unbundling. Pay for Netflix, don't pay for Comcast. Pay for Spotify. Don't pay for your CDs, fine. What we might have in the next 10 years is carnivores bundling, which is a pendulum, swings back towards convenience of the bundle and away from the individual items. So Apple, take 30 bucks a month off my bank balance. Please take 40. All I want is one direct debit. I don't care about the money, I just want the bundle.

And I don't want to see 15 direct debits every month. I just wanna see one. I think that's a very plausible scenario for how the next 10 years it's gonna play out as we shift from herbivores to carnivores

[00:46:31] Dan Runcie: And the bundle benefits, the companies that have the ability to do that, right? You can do that through Amazon Prime and get your video, your music, your free shipping or whatever is under that umbrella. You could do that through Apple. You mentioned all the elements under Apple one. Spotify has some element of this as well, whether it's exclusive podcasting and things like that. So you're starting to see these things happen, one thing that you mentioned though earlier, you're talking about going through the supermarket and all of the items that you could get there versus going to the specialty butcher.

One of the unique aspects of the supermarket thing though, is that. You go into the supermarket, yes, you can get your high-end Tropicana, or you can get the generic store brand, but you're gonna pay more for that high-end Tropicana because you're paying for the brand, you're paying for everything else that isn't gonna necessarily be the same as the generic one.

That may not necessarily be the same quality or the same taste. We're seeing this a bit in the streaming landscape now and some of the debates that were happening. You've heard the major record label executives talk about how they don't necessarily want their premium music. They see their content as HBO level and it's being in a playlist next to rain music, or it's next to your uncle that is playing some random song on the banjo and they're getting essentially the same price going to the rights holders for that song.

And in the supermarket that's obviously very different, each item has its own differentiator there, or econ has its own price point there and its own cost, but that isn't necessarily the same thing in music. Of course, the cost of each of those tracks may be different, but the revenue isn't. So that's gonna be, or that already is a whole debate that's going on right now. Do you have thoughts on that?

[00:48:21] Will Page: Well, you tossed top Tropicana, let me go grab that carton for a second. It's one of the best economic lessons I ever learned was visiting a supermarket in America cuz it's true to say that when you go into one of your American supermarkets, an entire aisle of that precious shelf space, it's dedicated to selling inferior brands of orange juice next to Tropicana.

Just very quickly what's happening there, the undercover economist, if you want, is a bargaining power game. Tropicana knows The reason Dan Runcie pulled the car over, got the trolley, went into that supermarket is to get a staple item of Tropicana and other stuff. By the time it gets to the till, Tropicana could be $5.

By the time he gets to till he spent $50. So here, subscriber acquisition cost contribution is really high. They're getting you into the mall. What you do once you're in the mall is anyone's business, but they got you in. Otherwise you would've gone to the deli across the street. So they could say to the supermarket, I'm gonna charge you $7 to sell that Tropicana for $5 in my supermarket.

Supermarket knows this, they know that Tropicana's got the bargaining paris. They counter by saying, here's an entire shell space of awful brands of orange juice to curb your bargaining power to see if the consumer wants something different. Now is this Will Page taking a stupid pill and digressing down Tropicana Alley. No. Let's think about this for a second today, Dan, there's a hundred thousand songs being onboarded onto streaming services. Is there anybody what? Marching up and down Capitol Hill saying We want a hundred thousand songs. No, the floodgates have opened them. It's all this content. Two new podcasts being launched every minute.

All this content, all of these alternative brands to Tropicana. But you just wanted one. And I think the record labels argument here is that one Cardinal Tropicana is worth more than everything else you're offering by its side. So we wanna rebalance the scales. Now this gets really tricky and very contentious, but what is interesting, if you wanna take a cool head on this topic, it's to learn from the collecting studies, which is not the sexiest thing to say on a Trapital podcast, but it's to look at your Scaps and your BMIs and understand how they distribute the value of money for music.

Since their foundation in the 1930s, scap has never, ever treated music to have the same value. They have rules, qualifications, distribution, allocation practices, which change the value of music. And they don't have data scientists then. And to be honest, I don't think they have data scientists now, but they always have treated the value of music differently.

When they were founded, they had a classical music distribution pot and a distribution pot for music that wasn't classical music. Ironically, their board was full of classical composers, and I think that's called embezzlement, but we'll leave that to the side. What we have here is a story of recognizing music as different value in the world of collecting Saudi.

I call that Jurassic Park, but in the world of music streaming with all those software developers and engineers and data scientists, 22 years of 9.99 money coming in and the Prorata model, which means every song is worth the same for money going out, and that's your tension. That's your tension. How do you get off that?

Tension is anyone's business. We got some ideas we can discuss. User-centric is one, autocentric is another. I've got a few ideas for my own, but I want your audience to appreciate. In straight no chaser language we call it. That's the undercurrent of what's going on here. How do you introduce Trapitalism to communism?

[00:51:38] Dan Runcie: You mentioned there's artist centric, user-centric, but you mentioned some ideas you had of your own. What are those ideas?

[00:51:44] Will Page: Can I bounce it off? Use my intellectual punch bag for a quick second. Yes, and I've worked 'em all. I've worked on the artist centric model. I've worked on artist growth models. That's up on YouTube. I've worked on user centric, but I'm just, I'm worried that these models, these propositions could collapse the royalty systems that these streaming services work under. The introduction of user centric or artist centric could become so complex, so burdensome, the royalty systems could break down.

That's a genuine concern I have. It's not one you discuss when you talk about your aspirations and the land of milk and honey of our new streaming model that you envisage. Back in the engine room when you see how royalties are allocated and calculated and distributed out to right holders, I mean they're under stress anyway.

Any more stress could snap it. So I come at this model, my proposition from the one that's least likely to break the system. I'm not saying it's the best model, but it's the least like least likely to have adverse impact on the system. And it came from my DCMS Select Committee performance in the UK Parliament, which your listeners can watch, we can give the link out, which is I said to the committee in terms of how you could change the model.

What about thinking about duration? This wheel back since 1980s when B BBC radio plays, let's say Bohemian Rhapsody, it will pay for that song twice what it would pay for. You're my best friend, members of Queen wrote both songs, both released within three, four years of each other, but one lasts twice as long as another.

So duration is not new. We factor in duration a lot in our music industry. We just never thought about it. If you look at Mexico, the Mexican collecting Saudi, which is so corrupt as an inside an army barracks, if you look there, they have sliding scales, duration. They factor in time, but they say the second minute is what?

Less than the first. But I'm giving you more for more time just adding, decreasing scale. Germany, they have ranges in your country. America, mechanical licensing collective, the MLC in Nashville, they have overtime songs that last more than six minutes get a 1.2 multiplier. So I've been thinking about how could you introduce duration to this business?

And the idea I've come up with is not to measure time. That'd be too complex, too burdensome. Every single song, measuring every second of consumption. How do you audit there? If you're an artist manager, but I wanna measure completion, then I think this is the answer. I want songs that are completed in full to receive a bonus and songs that are skipped before they end to receive a penalty.

Not a huge bonus, not a huge penalty, but a tweak. A nudge that says, I value your attention. I value great songs, and you listen to these great songs and it captures my entire attention. You deserve something more. But if I skipped out after the first chorus, you deserve something less. I think that small nudge is a nudge in the right direction for this industry, and it wouldn't break the systems.

So there it is. Tell me now, have I taken a stupid pill?

[00:54:42] Dan Runcie: What I like about it, and I've heard other people in the industry mention this too, you're able to get something closer to what we do see in video streaming. I forget which app is specifically, but their threshold is 75%. So they acknowledge that yes, if you don't wanna watch the credits, you don't wanna listen to the closeout, that's fine.

But if we at least get you for 75%, then we are gonna count that, and then that then can get used internally. That can then get used in different areas. But I think it provides everyone better data and analysis, much better data to be able to break down than. Whether or not you listen to the first 30 seconds, that's such a low threshold, but that's essentially where we are today.

I think the biggest thing, regardless of what path is chosen, because as you and I both know, there's trade-offs to everyone. So instead of going through all the negative parts about it, I think it's probably more helpful to talk about it collectively, you accept the fact that there are trade-offs. You accept the fact that people are gonna try to game the system regardless of how you go about it.

Because we have seen duration work elsewhere and it does get at that particular thing that we're trying to get at there is help there. And you mentioned other things such as, yes, if you're listening to the Bohemian Rhapsody, you, which I think is at least seven minutes and 15 seconds, most likely longer versus two minute song that is clearly idealized for the streaming era.

There still should be maybe some slight difference there because listening to a minute and 30 seconds is very different than listening to five minute and 45 seconds to be able to hit that 75% threshold. So between that and then I've heard other topics such as which artists you start your session with should have some type of multiplier on there, and as opposed to someone that gets algorithmically recommended to you to be able to put some more onus on the on-demand nature of music streaming.

The tough thing is that these things do get tough in general. Anytime there's any type of multiplier or factor in, there still is a zero sum pot that we're taking the money out of. So accepting the trade-offs, I like the direction, I think that there's a few ways to go about it that could make it more interesting, but in general, I do think that any of the proposed options I've seen at least, allow a bit more of a true economic reflection of where the reality is as opposed to where things are today.

And I understand where things are today. It's easy. It's easy to report, it's easy to collect on and pay people out, relatively speaking. But like anything, there's trade offs.

[00:57:14] Will Page: Yeah, it's really easy today. Even drummers can work out their royalties and no offense to drummers, but that's telling you something.

But two points on my duration proposal. Firstly, you mentioned the word threshold there. That's crucial because we already have thresholds. Music, every streaming service has to measure 30 seconds, one interrupted play in order for our royalty to be crystallized. So I'm just adding a second threshold.

I'm not reinventing the wheel. It's low marginal cost. Here I'm just saying, gimme the threshold of completion. I don't care how long the song is and how much of that song was consumed. Just tell me did it get to the finishing line, yay or nay. And remember that threshold has anomalies, as I tell in the book Pivot, and previously is a hardback tar in economics.

That 32nd threshold is like the tail wagging the dog. You're seeing songs are getting shorter and the choruses are moved to the front. Why? Cause I got a hook you for 30 seconds. I don't care what happens after 31 seconds, just get me 30 seconds. And why should I write a longer song when I'm not incentivized to do so?

So the grass isn't greener back on the other side of the fence. There's problems with our current model, and I think a way of like, Steering it back towards an attention economy is gonna help music win. Kevin, Netflix says that sleep is their biggest form of competition, but also valuing the art of songwriting.

Let's get back to the song. Let's put the artist back in the haystack and focus on the art, the creative process a bit more too, and reward that when it's consumed, it's an entirety. Second thing and final thing to wrap up on, Dan, can I quickly tell you about a wedding I was at recently? Yeah. Well I love weddings cause you get to wear your kil.

That's always a nice talking point. But I also love them because you get to speak to bands. I always forget to speak to the bride and groom. I just drift over to the band after the reception's over and chat to the band instead. And I was at a wedding recently and the band was there and they played celebration by Cool and the gang for the bride and the groom.

They played a second song for their parents to come and join on the dance floor. Then the band went into a two hour, 50 minute medley, nonstop right away through the evening didn't stop. It's like, wow, the band were tight. Went over to them at the end of it, said Drums, bass, you are in syncopation. I could see like, you really are a tight band, but what earth were you doing?

Doing a two hour, 15 minute medley. And they said, it's TikTok. Nobody wants to hear complete songs anymore. And my Pint Glass dropped the floor and they said that. I was like, Scott's people don't drop their drinks. But I dropped on this occasion because, what did you say? It's TikTok. Nobody wants to hear a full song.

They just want snippets. So we just do mes instead. Now forget the economics and the legal arguments. That makes me worried about which path music is currently on. Right there we are in an attention economy and I think it's got a little bit wared. We've got a straight up on the tracks. So I think this proposal's got legs.

[00:59:56] Dan Runcie: That's that story. That wedding from that, that story from that wedding you went to, that's like the Steve Lacy example, right? He went to his concert. His concert has been doing very well because of his song, bad habit. But then the people that are. At his show, the fans that are there, they could only recite that one instance of the song that's on TikTok.

I don't like, not even the whole song, just that one instance of the song that are on TikTok. Granted, Steve Lace has been making music for a while. It wasn't all the fans that were there, but with this influx of him not being able to perform in bigger venues, people wanna hear this song. It's one thing for years we've become accustomed to musicians performing for audiences that only know their hit.

Singles are the one that got the music video, but now a lot of them are experiencing hearing their fans only repeat back. That one moment that went viral on TikTok.

[01:00:48] Will Page: What's this? It's called verse two. If you stick around long enough, you'll hear a third one as well. You know what? It made me also just play that one off with me here, which is that famous Fleetwood Mac clip that blew up on TikTok.

Guy hanging off the back of the truck drinking a bottle of soda Singing Dreams. A 1981 song by Fleetwood Mac. It's 34 seconds, couple of things, firstly, that had about 90 million views, but had 843,000 impersonations on TikTok of people hanging off the back of a truck pretending to sing a Fleetwood Mac song.

But secondly, could you have a Gen Z millennial go and pay like 120 pounds to see them at Wembley Stadium, the cost of a streaming service for a year who's only ever consumed 34 seconds of their repertoire? I mean, that's not implausible, right? What type of world are we living in , albums anyone? Sometimes,

[01:01:35] Dan Runcie: And sometimes that's all it takes, sometimes that's all it takes, right? In some ways, the fact that we saw that much user-generated content from it, hundreds of thousands as you've just shared in that example, is huge. But it's crazy and this is actually a good transition to talk about AI because so much of the AI music that is relevant and has been top of discussion has been based off of popular artists.

We know we're talking about the AI that's based on a viral song from the Drake and the weekend. Granted, that song got a lot of buzz, especially when it first came out. I don't know how many repeat listens it's gotten since, but that's not necessarily the point. None point more so none. Exactly, exactly, right?

[01:02:19] Will Page: 20 million streams from 20 million listeners. Nobody streamed it twice, trust me.

[01:02:25] Dan Runcie: You gave in at least one stream though, right? You gotta give it a blessing, right? What was your thought?

[01:02:33] Will Page: Well, I'm gonna hand the torch over to Jessica Powell, the founder of Audio Shake, who I think is the most exciting company in music tech right now. And point your listeners towards her CK blog posting, which is this whole Drake Week weekend thing. Isn't it just a fuss over a remix? Paraphrasing the title, and it's a beautiful, that woman is inspirational, but she can write. She can write, which is like grabbing you by the luquette lapels and shaking seven shades of shit out of you.

She really uses the power of the pen to express her words, to go back to remix culture. So I think inspired from her work. I would say two things here. I think the thorny legal issue that's going on here is consent. We've had remix culture for years. We've had computers involved in music creation for years.

We need to see that in a continuation. But if you think about language of deep fakes, if I could manipulate the voice of Dan Ronsey and put that over a record without his consent, that's a red light, you know, I'm not being paranoid here, but there's a line that cannot be crossed. Dan once did not say those words, a computer generated those words. You could be liable for those words. How do we solve that? That's not just music, there's a whole, that's a whole spectrum of issues out there in society today that are gonna be affected by that. Music is a bell weather. That's a microcosm. It's the one that always gets hit first, but the rest are reaction stacked and ready to tumble.

But on the positive side, you flip it from risk to opportunity. We think about catalog uplift for a second. That is how can release of new content drive demand in all content? As I've been saying, to record labels since 2018. That's a secret source. That's what you're trying to correct. The purpose of a new album is not just make that new album a splash.

Get it to the top of the charts. Make sure you're in today's top hits. It's can you get the new fans to go back and listen to the old content? For some artists, it works. For others it doesn't. Do you fix what's broken or work with what's fixed? The greatest example is an artist that would love to hear on Trapital , Eminem, needs no introduction.

When I look at his streaming data, All he needs to roll outta bed fart and burp on Spotify, and his catalog goes through the roof. His new content has got nothing to do with new content. It just inspires people to go back to the late nineties and early nineties and all those releases, which were so big back then.

The new content's great. No disrespect, but it's like a reminder that there's this amazing catalog that you want to hear again and again, and it's a valuable catalog because that stuff is already recouped. A catalog dollar is worth way more to the bank account than a frontline dollar. There are other artists who can't make it work, and it's just for me.

What happens if AI music solves that secret source of catalog uplift? So, here in the UK, we here at Platoon Studios are next door to Noel Gallica from Oasis, and there was recently an AI generated oasis, which is getting Noel Gallica Liam Gallica back together again. Artificial intelligence achieved this.

Human beings can't achieve this. The two brothers don't get along, but AI sold it. That's cool. And Liam gave it a thumbs up. He's like, I love this walking. Good stuff. I'm not offended by ai. I embrace this. What did we see? No, a small spike in the AI version. A big spike in Oasis catalog. So for all the fear and paranoia on this topic, once we realize it can regenerate interest in catalog, I think you'll see the tables turn the sentiment change in our New York millisecond. Literally, they'll be like, I can make bucks out of this. This is a force of good, not a force of bad.

[01:06:05] Dan Runcie: I would hope that that's what people take away from this whole narrative is that if you are the owners of the back catalog of Drake in the weekend, you probably saw some type of noticeable bump.

Because even if people don't want to hear that song, they're still gonna go back and stream worse behavior, which in my opinion, is one of Drake's best songs because they want to hear that time and time again. Mm-hmm. And I think too, I'm glad you brought up Jessica and Audio Shake. I'm a small investor in the company and one of the things that I think she did well in that piece and others she's done is just laying the table stakes for where we are because.

Even if the song itself isn't that good, A, I don't think we're at the point yet. We may get there eventually with AI, but I don't think we're at the point yet where people will listen to this music as a replacement. But if it could remind you of what's already there, that's what's valuable. If you let fans experiment and get them to play around with the tools that are available and upload their music as long as it can fit within certain parameters and isn't violating anything or trying to impersonate the artist itself, you can let them freely create in a way that even 10, 12 years ago, there are all these questions about people putting their songs on putting artist song on YouTube as user-generated content in a video.

And over time you two was able to figure out how to get tagging properly so that artists could still be compensated for problem. Exactly. So that is possible, and I do think that eventually we can hopefully get to that point and I'm glad you mentioned Eminem. Two stats that always blow my mind, I'm sure you probably saw this one, but his 2005 Greatest Hits album was the sixth bestselling album, or the sixth bestselling hip hop album.

I forget the exact stat, but it was one of the bestselling albums in the UK last year. And Lose Yourself is the most streamed song on Spotify from the two thousands. So when we talk about longevity and we talk about him, I mean, people already knew him as the bestselling artist of the two thousands, but when we see those numbers and you see these catalog sales and all of that, if he ever made a decision, I don't know what his ownership structure, what share he has looks like, but if he ever had a decision, the amount of people that go back to his music to work out and everything else, it's one of the most valuable catalogs of music.

[01:08:24] Will Page: And he owns it all right? The rights are reverted back to him. So he's got a hundred percent ownership on that.

[01:08:29] Dan Runcie: Oh, wow, I didn't know that. Wow.

[01:08:31] Will Page: So, but the bigger point, and I know that the Trapital has a huge audience. It's an honor to address them here and now. And it's a broad church. I mean, the Secretary of State for media and culture in the UK Parliament, it's a big listener, obviously.

So I wanna land that point, which is don't hand this off to the lawyers to solve because they're gonna be too risk averse and they can't see the wood from the trees. There's a huge opportunity here. And those same balanced voices like Jessica Powell from Audio Shake, I want them to be rise up so we can counter the risk aversion from the lawyers.

Lawyers will do what they do best, but I describe in any workplace, there's two types of people. There's a yo squads and there's a no squads. And lawyers more often than not are no squads. They think of reasons why you can't do something. So I just wanna make sure we balance it with some people from the Yo squad so that we don't choke this off before the party can really start.

There's so much opportunity and let me remind your listeners as well, Jimmy Hendrix, the greatest export from America to Britain of all time. He came here in 1966, I believe, maybe 65, 66. And the label that first did a deal with him, the label owner, who I won't name, but I've seen the picture, had a plaque above his office.

So this is 1966. Okay? And the plaque said, the day that we can get computers to replace drummers is when we can have a proper music industry. And just keep in mind historical context. Music's a ride and we're on this trip forever. We're not getting off anytime soon. This is just part of that ride, and that's what I loved about Jessica's essay.

It's just a reminder that we're just on a ride here and AI is just the next stop on the train line. There's more stops to come.

[01:10:12] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Music is always gonna be there. It's like water, right? We have to understand where the technology's heading, but that's where it is. Well Will, before we close

[01:10:22] Will Page: Along with the typewriter.

[01:10:24] Dan Runcie: Exactly. Exactly. Well Will, before we close things out, it's great. This podcast, the base of it is the business of music, but you yourself are a dj and you have this incredible mix that you put out every year. It was an honor to provide one of the drops forward, but tell us a little bit about the mix and what to expect this year.

[01:10:43] Will Page: I'm so excited to, uh, launch this mix that's going out on Friday. Friday is an important day on the calendar. It's gonna be 50 years since Carole King performed in Central Park to a hundred thousand people for free 50 years since release of our album fantasy. And this year's mix is called 2023. Believe in Humanity and That word, you know, believe that expression, believe in Humanity, is the name of one of the songs on that Carole King album. Now, just wheel back for a second, you say, Carole King, most people think of tapestry, a Willie jumper and a cat, and you need a friend with James Taylor. Get it?

I mean, that song got me through my third year at university. But if you listen to fantasy, she does funk, and she doesn't just do funk. She does funk better than anyone. You think you're in the song Cho Rathon, and she's doing deep, dirty, aggressive funk. You know me and you, our music tastes are similar. We don't drink tea without sugar.

This is tea with lots of sugar. This is incredible funk music, and she just knocks it out the park like, touch me if you can. Best funk record I've heard is Fantasy by Carole King. So I've named the song The Mix 2023 Believe in Humanity. After that song, the mix opens with that, but more importantly, Dan, it opens with a speech from Carole King exclusively to me.

And that's for a kid from Edin Pro. He's been doing mixed tapes out of his bedroom since he was going through puberty. I've now got Carole King opening my mix. Do I need to say more? I gotta say more. There's so much more. Nile Rogers is in the mix. Anderson Peck is in the mix. Dan Runcie's got a shout out in the mix, and we've got Kyle O'Leary, who I think is the most promising hip hop artist out there today.

We have her and we've messed around with her track players. We've given it the edge of, you know, Dave MacAllum's music. We've given it the edge. There's a hint to your listeners, we've got it all. So, I mean, I put so much emotional time and effort into making these mixes happen and going out for free.

They get your DJ slots, but more importantly, it goes back to what makes me wanna work in music, which was a lyric from Mike G and the Jungle Brothers from that famous album done by the forties of Nature, where he said, it's about getting the music across. It's about getting the message across. It's about getting it across without crossing over How can I get art across an audience without delegating its integrity? And it's such an honor to have this mixed drop in this Friday to do just that and to have Carole King open it. I mean, that's, made my year and we're not even into June yet.

[01:13:07] Dan Runcie: That's special. That's special. Well, we're excited to drop that and share it as well, especially around the time this episode comes out.

So please share that link once it's ready. And Will, as always, it's been a pleasure. We covered so much in this episode. And before we let you go, where can people follow along to stay tuned with you for the next post that you put out for the next thing that you publish? Where can they, stay to follow along?

[01:13:31] Will Page: Sure, I mean a couple of of tags. Firstly, the website, tarzaneconomics.com. I mean, I built that to be a resource for industry professionals, for students alike so they can navigate the spaghetti of this music industry.

[01:13:43] Dan Runcie: Well soon be pivot.com though. Check me there. You gotta have a website that does well at airports.

[01:13:47] Will Page: I got the dopple ganger pivotal economics.com gets you to the same place, so I Oh, nice to resurrect it for the paperback. Lucky I got that too, just in the nick of time. very active on LinkedIn. will page on LinkedIn, you'll find me there. and then also on Twitter it's Will page as well. But yeah, when this mix drops, it'll be great to get feedback from chapter listeners. So please comment and please, please, please share, get the music across without crossing over.

[01:14:13] Dan Runcie: Thank you Will, it's been a pleasure.

[01:14:15] Will Page: Thank you so much, Dan.

[01:14:16] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead.

Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 4492 no Artist Independence (with Steve Stoute) https://www.trapital.com/podcast UnitedMasters and Translation CEO Steve Stoute returns to the show, fresh off a new deal with R&B star Brent Faiyaz for a reported $50 million. Brent had his pick at multiple major labels, but chose to stay independent with UnitedMasters. We talk about how independent companies can compete with majors on upfront money, competitive advantages in the music industry, and more. Steve and I also chat about the industry at-large: AI, entrepreneurship, subscription prices and more. Here’s what we hit on: 2:19 The ups and downs of entrepreneurship  06:11 Building two companies at once 10:56 Positioning UnitedMasters in the music distribution space  13:16 Does anyone in music have a moat? 15:56 Why Brent Faiyaz chose to sign with UnitedMasters 27:33 Should the DSPs raise prices? 30:07 Artists and creators becoming mini-media channels  36:58 How NIL (name, image, likeness) is like the independent music business 37:19 Is Steve going to strike more NIL deals? 45:52 Why every artists needs a Chief Technology Officer 54:30 Separating real from hype: blockchain, to web3, to AI Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Steve Stoute, @SteveStoute This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Steve Stoute: They used to have a moat, but no longer do they have a moat. And I don't think anybody independent music has a moat. I think Distro kid has a lane and TuneCore has a lane, and United masses have a lane. And, you know, others have, certain strengths about them. but, I think the only moat you have is the moat that is a true result of the success that you have. If people choose you and you build a strong business, and you're growing, that's the quote unquote moat. [00:00:27] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:55] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode covered a wide range of topics, but the key thing that's central to it is artist independence, and we're able to sit down with none other than Steve Stoute, who is the founder and CEO of United Masters founder and c e o of translation, and has been working in music and entertainment. For decades now. This is actually his third time on the podcast, and we covered it all. We started the conversation talking about motivations and how you were able to stay consistent as an entrepreneur, given the ups and downs of that lifestyle. Then we talked about translation, United Masters, Artist Independence, a bunch of trends happening right now and how. A company stays through all of the waves of technology waves, whether it's blockchain from a couple years ago to web three to where things are with AI now. Really fun conversation. Steve always brings it in these talks too, so it's a really great listen, hope you enjoy it. Here's our conversation. [00:01:53] Dan Runcie: All right. We're back with the Trapital podcast. Yeah. We got the one and only Steve Stoute here. I think this is your third time on the pod. [00:02:00] Steve Stoute: Really? I thought. I guess I thought it was twice. Thought This was my second time. [00:02:04] Dan Runcie: We did one time. We was at Empire Studio there. Yeah. We did it virtual during the pandemic, and then we got this one. [00:02:11] Steve Stoute: Oh, well, I'm fan of it. very early. You were? Yeah, I was on it very, very early. I think you're a good job. [00:02:18] Dan Runcie: Appreciate that. [00:02:18] Steve Stoute: Thanks for having me back. [00:02:19] Dan Runcie: Thank you. Yeah. These conversations are always good. And I wanna start this one and a place we haven't started others. I feel like we normally dive into the business, but take it a step back. You've been building businesses as an entrepreneur for decades now. How do you stay even keeled? How do you stay consistent with it, just knowing the ups and downs that naturally happen with building businesses? [00:02:42] Steve Stoute: Well, the fact that I appear to be even keeled is a compliment because, I certainly am emotionally attached to the businesses I build. I know there's, you know, the saying, don't be emotional about business, but when I'm building something from an original idea that I have, it's, you birthed the idea. I'm emotionally attached to the success of it, and the organization around it and the perception of it. So, you've been through those tumultuous cycles, so you tend to not chase the highs or chase the lows. and that sounds good. but it is definitely harder to do that when you're emotionally attached than, you know, understanding the theory that you should do that. And I think experience helps a bit, takes the edge off. But yeah, I would say to you, you just, like, for me, I've been able to sustain the energy and sustain through the ups and downs, through, sort of expecting them and not, chasing the highs like that's where the big mistake is when something great happens or a series of great things happen, you know, respecting it, but not chasing it because I believe that that's still not, gonna prevent the tumultuous time from coming. Because [00:03:56] Dan Runcie: I think the tough part with that, and this is something I know I struggle with too, it's tying your own satisfaction, your own esteem at particular points with those highs when things are going well. Yeah. And it's great to say those things, but I know even myself, it's tough to be able to stay even keeled when things are going well. The phone starts ringing more, you start getting more opportunities, more looks for things. Yeah, yeah, [00:04:20] Steve Stoute: Yeah. And it becomes more hectic. And then you have to hire more people. And then that creates another set of problems and responsibilities. And look, building a business isn't easy. I said it, the shop, know that the biggest mistake that I see is the glorification of entrepreneurs like, almond entrepreneurs. So therefore, like, you know, the sacrifice that it requires, to be able to know that failure is imminent or success is imminent that you may have an idea and you can go years without realizing the opportunity and it may go to somebody else. people ask me, how do I do it? And, you know, I'm here in San Francisco, I was, You know, in LA the day before that I was in Miami, the day before that, the day before that I was in LA again, it's like, it just keeps going. And like, you know, not seeing your family an d sacrificing some of the comforts of home or the comforts that you have of a routine, it's also part of the sacrifice. So it's not easy, and you have to really be committed to it. It almost has to be your A plan, your B plan. Your C plan is that plan, like you won't find joy or fulfillment. in doing anything else. At least that's how I feel. [00:05:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think a lot of it's accepting those trade-offs and knowing that you can't do it all. I think I've heard you talk about this on the shop as well, whether it's so-and-so as the birthday party, so-and-so as the this, and yeah, it's great if you can line up and do those things, but you've chosen this life to be able to be in LA, be in Miami, be in New York, and back to back days and Yeah, doing that requires this type of commitment to it and you can't do everything. [00:06:04] Steve Stoute: Yeah. and hiring great people, is part of it. but putting your own personal comfort is certainly not a priority. [00:06:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. Interesting you brought up the hiring piece because I think you've definitely built up a reputation as someone that's always operating on 10. So you naturally wanna surround yourself with people that are at that level. What are some of the things that you look for to see, okay, does this person have the edge? Cuz you know you're gonna be running all the time. Can they run with you? [00:06:36] Steve Stoute: it's very hard to, you know, resumes or LinkedIn pages, whatever you use can tell you a lot, but they don't measure resourcefulness or effort, right? So those things do not appear in any aspect of looking at, a person's profile. So I've learned through failure, you know, I may have not, I may have, I have high, I have hired and fired. you know, 3000 plus people, you know, so you learn what are the qualities or what are the questions to ask, to try to help, mitigate that the kind of person you need for your company. It doesn't mean that person's bad. You could have made a bad hire, not because the person's not good, they just don't fit your team. I mean, you see it in the NBA all the time. Players on somebody that was on the Lakers or somewhere else goes to another team and then all of a sudden they do well cuz it's the system, it's the culture, it's the coach. And that's the same thing with employment. Like, you just may be good just not for this company. So understanding what you specifically need versus, oh, this person worked at, so tech high, or they worked at Google, they worked at Airbnb, we want that right? Pulling them into a startup or pulling them into that culture or pulling them into that product not made completely, is completely different, specifically in our case, than what they were doing over there. And not every single job transfers one to one, whether it's the music business, the tech industry, the marketing business. We hire people at translation all the time. They came from Ogilvy. It's like, well, that has nothing to do with us, right? Or they come from Goodbee and you're like, well, that ain't gonna work here, right? Why? Just because the way we are, set up, what they may be used to, the programming that they run versus what we run, they, you know, may not be a great culture fit. And so, knowing that helps mitigate that risk. So knowing who you are, knowing what kind of people respond well to your culture is an important aspect. Not only just the mission statement stuff. Yeah, great, But like really innately knowing it and feeling what works. What are the common attributes of the people that are successful at your company that are more nuanced based and knowing how to identify that in others and what other companies share those values so that people that come from those companies tend to do well at your company. [00:09:05] Dan Runcie: You mentioned how this is a tension point in music in this industry. I think we've seen it from time and time, whether it's the record label side and folks on the creative versus streaming and tech coming in and some of the pushback there. I think you've been able to have a good vantage point with both of these because you have a ad agency and you also have a music distribution service. The talents, the skills needed for one, may not make sense for the other, but they also have a bit of a unique identity there. How is it with that perspective? [00:09:38] Steve Stoute: Difficult, hard. at the onset of starting United Masses, I put translation in united masses under. United Masters, Inc. And understanding that in order to do that, to build a marketplace that has creative or brands on one side and creative and culture and cultural impact and creators on the other side, and building that marketplace takes hiring unique people because we sit at the convergence of culture, technology, and, storytelling. Mm-hmm. So you need people who are prolific at least two of those three things, every single person. And that's the only way you have a shot of getting that convergence to work as one and hiring for that and building organization structures around that probably is the most important thing. That I do every day is understanding where could we be more efficient in that model? What kind of people do we need in order to accelerate that model? How do we scale that model as a result of the talent we have and the talent we need? That is very difficult, and it is probably, it's definitely a top five priority, from the CEO. [00:10:56] Dan Runcie: And I assume as well, part of this is required with the nature of how you've positioned United Masters, right? If you don't have these differentiating factors, if you don't have this tie in to culture or trying to present sync opportunities or things like that, then it could easily be seen as another music distribution service. And that's not what Well, [00:11:17] Steve Stoute: Dan, you've been following the company very closely before you could be, just another distribution company before that became popular, I had this idea with that differentiating factor seven years ago, right? So I knew from the onset that distribution was table stakes. and the building of United Masters with translation and power powering the brand sync opportunities, the influence and type of opportunities, was something that I had the early vision on. So yeah, it's important, but it's not important in response to, oh, all of these, you know, distributors in the market now, so you need to X, Y, Z. I was doing the X, Y, Z before they even had the idea to be in music distribution, to be honest with you. And a lot of these music distribution companies that you see are coming out, are looking at United masses and honestly copying it. Some of it they can't copy. That's fine. some of it they can't copy. It's 20 years of experience in, you know, running record companies and building an advertising business to be able to do this. So you think you can replicate the outcome without replicating the process, which I've never seen actually happen, the theory is right? But to replicate it, to hire the people, to have the credibility in the marketplace to speak to brands and hire the type of people needed to pull us off. Good luck, I do believe, and I am supportive just to add to all of that, great distribution companies that support independent music, that have something to contribute to the independent music movement are welcome and everybody, you know, rises as a result of it. So I'm not necessarily, I don't look at. at these other, distributors as competitors, I look at us as contributing to an industry that's, changing the music business dramatically and if you have something to bring to the table, it's beneficial to all. [00:13:17] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I think for United Masters as well, you've been able to have your moat essentially as you've described it. You have the years of experience, you have the ability to connect dots in ways that others don't, and that's led you to land some of the artists you have. You have a recent deal that's been announced with Brent Faz and a long-term partnership there. Can you talk a bit about that deal and how things came together? [00:13:43] Steve Stoute: Well, a moat is a bit of a stretch. I don't know if we have a moat. We have a great business model that certain artists, labels can find use of. [00:13:56] Dan Runcie: Do you think anyone has a moat in this space? [00:13:59] Steve Stoute: No. No. The record companies, the traditional record companies had a moat, when physical distribution was a barrier of entry, right? It's very hard to press up 500,000 CDs or vinyls or whatever it is. and distribute it to 7,000 points of distribution. That's not easy to do for a small, a single individual or a very small business. So that was their mode. They also had a monopoly on radio and, MTV, you know, MTV doesn't matter at all and, for music per se. And, radio matters much less than it used to. for discovery, right? So they used to have a moat but no longer do they have a moat And I don't think anybody independent music has a moat. I think Distro kid has a lane and TuneCore has a lane, and United masses have a lane. And, you know, others have, certain strengths about them. but, I think the only moat you have is the moat that is a true result of the success that you have. If people choose you and you build a strong business, and you're growing, that's the quote unquote moat. but other than that, I don't think anyone has, a clear defining advantage that no one else can replicate, right? A nd just because we have the brand stuff doesn't mean that that's the, you know, I wanna believe that's very important to the artists. But somebody else may have another thing that is if marketed well and that's what they think their advantages. I don't have the ultimate advantage cuz you know, brands and brand partnerships in sync may not necessarily be what you find most valuable. It could be a distribution company that creates and manufacturer's merch and you're like, oh shit, that's the one I want. Mm-hmm. Right. So I don't, wanna say that specifically. We have that. [00:15:56] Dan Runcie: That's fair. I do think that that mentality is part of the differentiating that I think is lost in music overall to some extent, because I think that you have few record labels that truly have unique brands. I think you have few music streaming services that have unique brands, and when you have something, it's clearer to be able to say, who is this for? Who is this not for, right? And clearly, I assume you were able to do some of that with Brent Faz and that partnership. He saw something with how you all do business and said, okay, this is for me. [00:16:32] Steve Stoute: Yeah, Well, Brent is a very, very unique talent. I obviously he wants to be with something that. A company, distributor, or partner that represents values that are there to him. So creativity is extremely important to him. The fact that we do have translation really matters in that instance cuz brand partnerships is something that he holds near and dear to him. He also was very respectful of, my, you know, reputation and what I've accomplished and chose that over others who, you know, was offering more money but didn't have the, same values that he had or shared values he didn't share their values. He was very particular about that everyone who knows him knows that, he's high taste. So he wanted to be with, you know, a brand, a distributor, a partner that was, had a sense of premiumness to it. That was important to him. So I think the combination of those three things and, you know, just our chemistry, his manager Ty, is also a fantastic, really intelligent, guy who I've developed a great relationship and a lot of respect for, also played a very significant role in this partnership. And we're gonna do great things together. I knew this day would come, I knew where so much respect for guys, like maybe maybe for Toby, right? Toby Nii, who, I keep screwing up his name and he keeps making fun of me screwing up. His name is actually part of his name now. When I say it. But, I have so much respect for him and fat because we've done so well together and, they've committed to us and we've committed to them. And it was a proof point that an independent artist can be successful, can be, you know, a global brand. And I directly tie the work that we've done with Toby and, and others. And others. He just comes to mind. I spent a lot of time with him for why Brett chose us. Brett chose us. and now you got Brett who sold out his tour in three days around the world and shit. That kind of star deciding to stay independent, not go with a major label. And they offered him everything, all the money in the world. And I knew that trend is gonna happen. That's gonna happen, man. You're gonna start seeing this happen all the time, like, you know, the one moat, again, back to the legacy labels that they have, is that because they own your masters, when your contract is up, what they do, their, their thing is start to give you back the shit they took from you, right? So now you leave, you finish your 8, 5, 7 album commitment, whatever it is, right? And it's no longer can they give you any more money to stay. So they go, we'll give you back album one. And you're like, I'll stay on Sony because now Album one reverts I'll stay on Universal cause album one reverts. So they stay stuck in the system because all they do is now give you back what you shouldn't have never given actually, or they never should have taken. So they hold you cuz you're tethered to that, right? And no matter what, an independent distributor can't give you your first album that you wrote, because you never had in the first place. You never, you know, so you never had it in the first place, however. So that's the moat that they have with legacy acts that will stay. So it'll be hard for legacy acts to leave when they can give you back that kind of stuff. But the new artists who are building their careers are considering independent distributors such as myself or others, at the same consideration set as they're considering a label. If you can give 'em money and you can provide them services, look man, you know, people talk about like, oh, these labels have a service. We picked up our systems. We distributed a song, from a great, great young artist, good man, superstar Pride outta Mississippi has a song called painting Pictures. The song was released in October. The The song moves like this, my building, just, I don't know, 3000 streams a day or something like that. and then all of a sudden, on February 6th, it goes from 3000 to 9,000 or something like that. Our systems catch it, right? We're looking for the second derivative. We're measuring acceleration. Boom. We find it, Two or three days later, other labels. It goes from 9,000 to 27,000, and then five days later it's compounded to fucking 400,000 streams, something in a day. It's crazy. But we already have identified it. all the labels are offering the money, three and a half million, 4 million, this, that, and the third. He chose to stay with United Masters. Everybody said, well, they can't get you this. They can't do that. Songs gonna be number one at radio. It's not like they have an advantage anymore, you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's not even like a problem. It's Mm-hmm. nothmm. if it was like a heavy lift, the artist made a great song. We gotta work it at radio. There's a formula to that money is part of that formula, right? And we can do it. it. Somebody can't do it better than us. Universal can't do it better than us. They don't like for artists to think that, right? They would like the perception of that to be true, but it's not the real marketing is coming out of, you know, the artists themselves and your relationships with Apple and Spotify and other distributors and YouTube, and we have the same relationships they have. So the new artists know that. They don't see, the only thing the record company can really give them that they believe they can get, that they can't get an independent is money. And I hope the Brett Fires deal just shows that we have money too. It's like, [00:22:18] Dan Runcie: How big is that money difference? Because I think that's the one thing that people do. [00:22:21] Steve Stoute: It's getting smaller and smaller as the record companies are losing. They're letting people go. their margins are getting smaller and smaller. They're firing a lot of people. don't know if no one talks about this. this, but they're not running around writing those big ass checks like they used to anymore. They Hell no. no. No, no, no, no, no, no. [00:22:41] Dan Runcie: Because I think people will look at a deal like the one that Drake did last year. Yeah. For instance. And they're, say the Ruter mal is somewhere 300, 400 [00:22:50] Steve Stoute: It was more than that. Much more than that. But that's different. They have Drake's, remember what I told you, they got Drake's masters, right? That's different than an artist starting from Drake releasing the first. song with Trey songs. All right, whatever. When he started his career, like if Drake released a song today that Drake considers an independent music company, at the same rate that he, looks at a major label cuz the major label can't say anything to him today that will make him believe outside of money that they have an advantage. [00:23:25] Dan Runcie: This topic too, reminds me of something similar because we're talking about the record labels and the streaming service as well, who's bringing in money, and there's all this debate right now around pricing for these services. The record labels want those prices higher. The streaming for songs? Oh no, for the monthly subscription that customers pay. [00:23:45] Steve Stoute: Oh, oh, okay. [00:23:46] Dan Runcie: Yeah, yeah. So they want the hire, the streaming services, well, a few of them still want to keep them as low as possible, but we're seeing things trending in that direction. You owning a music distribution service, relying on that streaming revenue as well, where do you take, what's your take right now on pricing on the consumer side and Yeah, [00:24:08] Steve Stoute: A few things there. Number one, the record companies had the opportunity when they held all of the leverage. To control pricing, to control pricing for the customer, as well as the price per stream. All these things were set up at a time when the record companies, you know, got big advances from Apple, you know, got ownership in Spotify, so they were cool with whatever was going on. As they're starting to lose market share now they need to go find growth, and the only way to find growth is go to the streaming services and say, charge more money so we can make more money. But the problem is that if the artist got the lion share the money, rather than the label getting the lion share the money, the current pricing model will work really well. The artists, if they were independent and they were receiving 80% of the money that came from streaming, and it went to each individual artist, they'd be fine with it. They'd be making a lot more money than they're making right now. The independent artists are making a fortune of money. Go ask russ. Go ask Toby. Go ask Brent what he's done for so many years. Why he stays independent, because they've really received the lion share the money. The record companies have bloated overhead, whether it be office space, employees and salaries of their CEOs and shit like that, and whether they're public or or not. In the case of universal, it's public. They need to show growth, and they're losing margin on how much money they're making per album or release, And the only way to find growth, real growth is the diversify of their business, which they haven't been so good at. There's not that many entrepreneurs insider, a record companies. Jimmy Iovine was one. Dr., Jay-Z was another, but there's not that many. You don't see that many. I'm not making this up. So you're talking about CEOs who were fat and happy, now all of a sudden have to innovate and they don't have a person that can make beats by Drake. They don't have a person who's gonna create the next thing. So now they gotta go to apple and Spotify and squeeze more. The problem is their leverage with Apple and Spotify have sort of, gone in the other direction. They don't have as much leverage as they had seven years ago, eight years ago, 10 years ago. ago. So that's the landscape. I the artists should get paid more money. That's we built our model to do, make sure the artists get paid more money and have great partnerships with, the platforms. And that's how I see it right now. yeah. So to answer your question on pricing, whether or not Spotify or Apple should charge more, I mean yeah. If they're gonna continue to grow so that you don't wanna price it so that people start canceling subscriptions, right? You gotta price it right so that it keeps growing. Cuz the more they grow, the more the pot of money grows. But before I get to even worrying about what they're charging, I need to worry about the artists are getting the lion share of revenue, and that's what we, stand for United Masses, and that's what we've been able to accomplish today. Okay. [00:27:33] Dan Runcie: And at least for the artists that are part of United Masters, they don't have the rights holder relationships that the signed artists do on the record label. So that side doesn't necessarily affect them as much. I think you definitely addressed that piece of it. I think the other side of it is looking at streaming prices on all the video services and how Netflix and all these other services have definitely expanded beyond their 9 99 price point. And then for you all as a business, knowing that a company like Spotify, which does have lower churn than a lot of those other companies as well, if prices were to increase 10%, that's 10% more revenue, at least for the streaming revenue side of the business. For a company like United Masters given the cut you have [00:28:16] Steve Stoute: Again, yes. and at some point you can raise the price to the point where somebody says, you know what? I'd rather not do that. I'd rather have an not that service. I'd rather listen to it free on YouTube, or I'd rather deal with ads. It costs too much. I don't know what that price is, but there's absolutely a point of diminishing return and setting any price. You gotta just know what that price is. So rather than me sit here and go, yeah, they should raise prices, which I could easily say, cuz it's beneficial to me. I want them to raise prices and continue to grow. Cuz as that pot grows, there's more money to be distributed. If they price it wrong, it hurts us. That's my only point. [00:28:59] Dan Runcie: That's fair. I get that. This topic as well, reminds me of another thing that I wanted to chat with you about. [00:29:07] Steve Stoute: We're talking about, reminds you of something else. That's great. That's how you write, you write like that, you find all these, comparisons, to different business models. in fact, you know, that's why I'm a fan of what you guys do of what you do. but it's funny when you say it, actually, reminds me of [00:29:22] Dan Runcie: That's funny. That's funny. I was actually gonna say, this isn't a random reminding, this is actually something you had said in that episode of the shop. I think it was the last one you did. You were, I think Drusky was on there. A fewer folks were on there. Yeah. You were talking about dollars that were moving from traditional tv Yeah. And going towards creators. Yeah. And how much of an opportunity that is. And I know you, with the business you have with translation, a lot of your work has been focused on doing these traditional TV partnerships, whether it's with a State Farm or some of the other clients you have. I'm curious to hear how this type of transition impacts your work and what opportunities you see and how you may have be thinking about the future on that side. [00:30:07] Steve Stoute: So the media buying companies, people who buy media for brands are seeing and advising that television ratings outside of sports are going in the wronging direction and advising to put that money more into digital channels that are primarily driven by creators. The creators have deep connections with their fans. The creators can create a network effect. So you can hire, you know, 50 creators who who have deep impact in different regions, communities, and you can buy against it. and sort of create marketplace momentum around a movement, a brand, a product, whatever it may be. My question toski is, this thing is shifting in your direction or what are you doing to prepare for it? I said something so long ago on, on my man Swae. I said that that artists are going to become mini media channels. I said this six years ago, mini media channels. If you look at the artists and you look at them like what cable channels were, you watch ESPN, they have an audience, you watch Turner, they have an audience, you watch Discovery, they have an audience. The artists, the influencers are gonna be exactly like those with obviously much smaller audiences, but the relationship between the artists and the audience or the influence in the audience is where the media money is going. ESP N, Turner and Discovery are prepared for that. that. Their organizations are set up for it. They stay on brand so that when the money comes their way, the brand knows, whoever's spending money against it knows exactly what they're getting and the kind of audience that they have. What What are the creators doing to be prepared for that movement of revenue coming to them? How are they set up for that? Because in the beginning it starts to look like, oh shit, this is all found money. But I'm saying, this is not just found money. This is the new industry. [00:32:23] Dan Runcie: Is there anyone that you see that's doing a good job of this right now? Or any creators that are ready for this moment [00:32:29] Steve Stoute: there's so There's so many of them. A lot of YouTube creators are doing it. You know, mr. Beast disguise, I mean, you know, the names. They all, you know, have created, you know, products that create lines around the block. I mean, you know, you don't look at it this way anymore because, she's transcended what you first seen her as. But Kim Kardashian is that she's the ultimate influencer. She's the influencer's influencer, right? Right. And she's built billions of dollars of business as a result of using her culture, her influence. that started with Instagram and social media. So like yeah, we've seen a lot of people do it, right? The musicians are now starting to do it right, because they're starting to realize Rihanna and Fenty. And others are copying or copying or seeing that, look, the streaming business is great and touring is great, but my impact, my movement, because of my digital footprint can allow me the opportunity to sell other higher margin items, like beauty products like lingerie, like footwear. So understanding your influence, whether you're a musician or personality and who your audience is creating opportunities for a lot of money to be made. [00:33:50] Dan Runcie: And how does that shape the type of work that translation will continue to do in the future working with creators? [00:33:58] Steve Stoute: Well, our number one responsibility at translation is to be lockstep with culture and lockstep in real lockstep. So as we help provide solutions for brands, creative, strategic solutions, We understand that what I just said about where this business is going and the influences and their impact that they have, we're very fluent at that. So it doesn't impact us in a way that says, oh, now we have to change our business as a result of this. We just create in these new landscapes, right? Like, it doesn't impact us at all. In fact, it hinders. The more bigger traditional agencies who have not even wrapped their brain around diversity culture, they're still running an old playbook. This new thing, they hope goes away, but we've seen this over and over again, right? It's the dilemma that happens, the innovation dilemma that takes place and whether you do it yourself or you get disrupted by somebody else. if you hold on to what you've done, you'll be disrupted. When we built translation, we built it under the manifesto of translating culture for Fortune 500 companies. And translating always needs to happen. It's why I came up with the name, everything needs to be translated, right? So the fact that tr culture needs to be translated and because it's translated and it changes, you have to be clear and understanding of it. I talk about that all of a sudden, the speed of culture, the speed in which, you know, someone can become an overnight success. Like there's a tape, a footage. You should run it, in this spot and I'll send it to you. Where Lil Nas X, goes on, he eats a piece of pizza January, 2019. He's eating a piece of pizza on Instagram. And He's like, yo, this is Nas X I got 1000 plus followers on spotify. I got 3000 on Instagram, you know, a couple, you know, thousand views on YouTube, but I think Old town Road is gonna be a hit. and I'll see you guys a year from now, literally a year to the day he has on a white fucking mink eating pizza. And he is like, you know, it's little Nas x 30 million on spotify, da da, da. And that's no different than skims disrupting spanks in a year. Like that's no different than other. Everybody is ready for the, that's the speed of culture and it's fast. It'll never be this slow again. Like that's a fact. So being a brand of an agency, a creative company, a influencer or whatever you are, if you are not aware, prepared, built for that speed, you will get left. [00:36:59] Dan Runcie: The other area that's move in just as fast, probably even faster is NIL and everything happening there with [00:37:06] Steve Stoute: This you of NIL? You were gonna say that, that reminds me of NIL deals. Oh shit. How the fuck did he do that? That reminds me of a great piece of pizza. I just had Steve again, NIL deals. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. [00:37:19] Dan Runcie: And I think we've seen a lot of fast movement there. Yes, we have. You've definitely probably see plenty of opportunities cuz I think the space is very unregulated. There's random things happening. [00:37:32] Steve Stoute: Yeah. And yeah, you should go look at, just so that you properly, as you definitely, know my work and have been, very much appreciative of my contribution. I did a documentary at LeBron James called student athlete that came out five years ago. You should look at that. You should play clips of it. We followed four athletes over a year that were high school, that were college athletes. One of 'em got injured and fucking, like, had to sleep in his car because you know, you are a D one athlete, you get injured, you don't make it to the pros. You don't get any fucking health insurance anymore. They fucking cut you. That's the end of it. Right. So you're playing for this lottery ticket and you don't get shit. And the fact that these student athletes don't get a chance to actually get a great education because they have fucking practice every day or games on Friday or traveling to get to a game all over the place. But the school benefits from all of the advertising dollars. And all of the conference dollars was something that we put a highlight on and it was really, making it and seeing these stories. You felt like this is of modern day slavery. Mm-hmm. So NIL deals the Wild, wild west, the transfer portal as well. So you had NIL deals and the transfer portal happening at the same time. What is this doing? This reminds me of the independent music business, because now these student athletes really now are independent business people. They can change schools with less friction than they could have five years ago, 10 years ago. Forget it. you change schools, you had to sit outta here. You couldn't do this, you couldn't do that. By the time you could play, you know, you lost a step or you weren't the same, or you were too far removed from the game, whatever it may be. So the hindrance of that made you stay at the school and not go through that problem. That was the way they kept you. Well, it's certainly not fair that the football in which you have to stay three years, right? And basketball pay for 90% of all of the other scholarships That the fucking sports program had. And yet these guys don't get any money. It is not right, you know, think about players getting thrown out of bowl games because they got tattoos, free. It's crazy. So I'm all for NIL deals and I'm happy, it's the wild, wild west. And I like the fact that there's a guy or girl on campus make making $2 million a year balling in a fucking Porsche Bentley or investing his or her money, whatever they're doing, helping their family. I'm happy for the fact that they are getting a chance to monetize their impact beyond a scholarship, that is fantastic, but definitely a education that is not the same because they're practicing the amount of time they're practicing and traveling. The way they're traveling, this is the least that they can do is get paid for their services. And the NCAA got away with a lot for a very very long time. You should look at that. Look, when the student athlete, it's a bylaw, right? that actually became a thing and why it was set up that way and what it means and the implications of it. It was a way to hog, tie or build a moat so that these kids would never leave. As college sports grew and the money grew, all of a sudden it became, these assets, right? Became really lucrative. These conferences became very lucrative, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in TV deals. I'm happy for it. In fact, we represent the Big 12 and, shout out to my man, Brett, who now runs the Big 12. He came from running the Brooklyn Nets. He, I worked with him when he moved the Nets from New Jersey to Brooklyn. Then he went over to run a aspect of Roc Nation and now he runs the Big 12. He's the future of collegiate sports cuz he understands the music industry and the brand building industry. He understands the business of running sports team, the nets, the arena, the Barclays, bringing in talent to fill that arena pricing, dynamic pricing, media deals. He did it all. And now he's taken that combination of skills to Big 12 and he's once NIL deals. In fact, that's his competitive advantage because none of those guys who run all those other conferences, they're all like, shit, we gotta give these NIL deals. The students are gonna do X, Y, Z in this transfer portal. What are we gonna do? Brett's? Like, this is what I've been doing my whole career. I can't wait to set up NIL programs, bring brands in, you know, treat these students athletes like the same way we treated artists in my previous career. it's dope and, it's way, way, overdue. This reminds you of, [00:42:46] Dan Runcie: Didn't remind me of something, but I was gonna ask you, is this an area that you would work more directly in through translation, through the agency, working with the [00:42:54] Steve Stoute: Yeah. I mean, yes. Look, it's not like, again, we represent the Big 12, so our contribution to that, is adjacent to a lot of that kind of stuff, you know, there is an opportunity to set up a. a division that works specifically on NIL deals. I think it's much more, urgent that the CAAs do and the UTAs and the WMEs have that because their brokers of that kind of stuff. Where they have talent and they brands and they put 'em together, we do that for our clients. We don't do that as a industry trade. We don't just like connect random brands with, you know, artists unless we are, or athletes, unless we are doing much more immersive experiences and creative for those brands. But, you know, I'm happy we represent Beats. We did the, Beats deal with Bronny, then we did the commercial with Bronny and his dad with LeBron and like I love that. I love it. Not only for that story, but the fact that again, this 17 year old kid signed a deal with Beats. And we can actually market that and advertise that as, without him losing eligibility or whatever the fuck these guys were coming up with is dope. [00:44:07] Dan Runcie: Right. Especially given that everyone was gonna make money off of his name. So I'm glad he can do it himself. [00:44:12] Steve Stoute: Of course, like, you speak to Jalen Rose about this like when they're at Michigan man, the Fab 5 and these guys, [00:44:18] Dan Runcie: Oh, that was bad. [00:44:19] Steve Stoute: That's terrible man. Selling jerseys with their name on it and these guys. like, everybody's looking at investigating the, what they did and what did Webber do and what he did to try to feed his family. You can't even afford to get your family to come see you play. Mm-hmm mm-hmm. Well of course corruption's gonna be in it. You mean, I can't eat? I have a scholarship though. And my parents can't even come see me play cuz we can't afford it. You don't think that's gonna lead to corruption? What are you crazy? [00:44:47] Dan Runcie: It's this weird juxtaposition where I think either, Webber or Rose talked about this in that documentary [00:44:52] Steve Stoute: It's the coach by the way.Yeah. Gets paid $10 million, in most, towns or cities in America, the highest paid employee of that city, or town is the coach of the football team. Yep. Or the basketball team. They're the highest earning person in the entire city. [00:45:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah. They save at the state level too for the Colleges [00:45:12] Steve Stoute: Then they get deals with Nike and the coach makes the player wear Nikes or Reebok or whatever it is, the coach makes that decision. Everyone's making money except the student themselves, but they're getting a scholarship. [00:45:27] Dan Runcie: Right, it's crazy [00:45:28] Steve Stoute: And definitely an education with an asterisk next to it. Isn't that fair? Are you fucking outta your mind? [00:45:35] Dan Runcie: It's crazy. It's crazy. I'm glad this is happening and I'm glad we're seeing this shift. [00:45:41] Steve Stoute: Yo, pull up student athlete. When you do this, I'm you the edit right now. I'm gonna send you the Lil NAS thing and the student athlete thing. Oh yeah. We'll throw it in there. Put it in. That's why we're doing video. video. [00:45:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no. That's why we, no, this will be good. And then we have the clips and everything. Yeah. Shifting gears, last time you were on, you talked about chief technology officers and why artists need to have tech side folks on their platform. Yeah, [00:46:06] Steve Stoute: Yeah, brother. [00:46:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, How have you seen this develop the past couple years since? [00:46:10] Steve Stoute: I haven't, the artists that obviously have the foundational truth is as technology is becoming much more important in content and video services, every artist needs a chief technology officer. That's the foundational truth. The practical reality is that that's not gonna be the case, which is the opportunity for platforms like ours to be extremely useful in providing tools, intelligence, information that is allows the artist, the influencer to take action in a very user-friendly way to help grow their career. So essentially, we wanna be the Chief Technology Officer as a platform for all of these artists. I believe that to be true. In fact, in building our platform, the remit to my engineers is that, that we have to anticipate what the artist's needs are. And build that for them. We're it for a community of artists. We're not building it to best interface with Apple or Spotify or YouTube. That's one part of it. 80% of it is what do you, I say all the time, man, I'm about to put my name in the system. I'm about to upload my first song. That experience. If I nail this, I'm gonna change the life for me and my mama. I'm gonna become my dreams. I'm gonna be able to quit this bullshit job and really live out what my talents are when I hit this button and upload this song. That's how they feel. to build a technology that's empathetic to that, and then as they continue to grow, make sure that they have the tools and they need information in order to do their thing. That's what I tell each and every engineer that comes into my company. [00:48:17] Dan Runcie: That trajectory makes sense because if you're starting out, you're a dependent, you're not gonna have the resources to hire someone to pay them 1 50, 200 a year, whatever it is to be a CTO on staff. Yeah. How could you leverage the partnerships you have? Maybe if you get to a certain point, you could have someone internally. [00:48:35] Steve Stoute: Of course. Of course, you know drake and, you know Beyonce and Pharrell and they have a version of a chief technology officer, somebody who, their interaction with technology is seamless and smooth and they understand it and they have relationships and, you know, they could speak with the tech leaders and be able to find the value and where the integration and partnerships can best take form. Up until you get to that point, we should be the platform to provide that for you at scale [00:49:08] Dan Runcie: Artists as well. This is also valuable because there's so many new things that are always coming. Obviously I talk about them often in capital. You're evaluating themself for your own business, whether it's a couple years ago, whether or not we should be building something on the blockchain. A couple years after that, should we be involved with Web 3? Should we have NFTs and 2023? AI is the big thing. [00:49:33] Steve Stoute: Can I talk to you about that? [00:49:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, [00:49:35] Steve Stoute: But go ahead, ask the question. I'll get into it. [00:49:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, so I was gonna ask twofold how you look at it for yourself with the businesses and then also the value add and advice you give to artists that are considering this. [00:49:46] Steve Stoute: Yeah, So let's, I take a step back for a second. Whether 20 years ago as technology, you know, sort of more consumer facing technology 30 years ago has been, is taking shape into, is taking shape. The popularity of code or the popularity of, you know, technology outside of just the internet itself. It wasn't immediate frenzy around it. It didn't, like, it was just happening. It wasn't like front and set of the media. And I think part of it is like there weren't that many day traders like Uber drivers are traders and school teachers trade everybody's trading stocks. So now that you've built applications that allow people to day trade and everybody could be a stock analyst themselves, the technology has gotten a lot of media attention and a lot of that media attention I do believe has escalated the fact that it becomes top of mind. But yet the application of that technology may be premature. Agreed. So every with the metaverse, oh my God, everybody are you doing in the Metaverse? We're in the Metaverse. We're in the Metaverse. You in the Metaverse. What is the Metaverse? Is Fortnite the Metaverse? That's not the Metaverse, the Oculus is the Metaverse. No, that's not the Metaverse is gaming in general. The Metaverse. Well, whatever. But before we could even get to that, NFTs come, well fuck the Metaverse. It's the NFTs. Well, the NFT, you got a NFT. You got a What's your character? What's your character? Who you got a character? What's your character? What's your vetas? don't have a character. Let me see your crypto wallet. What's in your crypto wallet? What's in your crypto wallet? What's in your crypto? Okay, now we just went to the Oh shit. Fucking AI. you use chatGPT. How we gonna, it's like, yo, bro, could we just chill out? Stop. and the media writes it and then everybody just runs around. Thinking that they need to be prolific and like force themselves to find the application. cuz they don't wanna be left out like, let these things find, use cases that stick and therefore the products and the applications that come out of it will then take hold. But like for you to just run to crypto wallets and metaverses and ai and the, it's like, it is so overblown. And what I was telling my team about is what happens is like take crypto, like the media is incentivized to write it all the way up, right? write it all way. You gotta get this, you gotta get this, you gotta get this. They write it all the way up and then as soon as the shit melts, they fucking write it all the way down. So they still win because they fucking made everybody feel like it was important. And then, They start shitting on it and everybody has to read that because they wanna know why they're shitting on it. And then while they're shitting on it, they fix the next thing. Metaverse da da da it's like, it's funny to me cuz I could it's obvious actually. It's funny because it's obvious, but yet people sort of work themselves up, like, you know, I deal with CMOs all the time. They're like, you know, what are we gonna do in the metaverse 18 months ago? They don't even fucking bring it up anymore. Right? Why were you bringing it up 18 months ago? Cause you read it in the New York Times because it was on some news channel and you don't even bring it up anymore. [00:53:08] Dan Runcie: The dialogue around this heightened into the fomo. Everyone has the fear of missing out on all this. [00:53:14] Steve Stoute: Not me. I think I don't have any FOMO on shit that's not real. And I'm not saying it's not real, I'm saying until it has practical applications that affect my life or my business really. [00:53:29] Dan Runcie: How do you determine what that is? [00:53:32] Steve Stoute: I don't know, Talent? testing, I don't know, like that kind of thing. [00:53:39] Dan Runcie: It's interesting, right? Because I feel like we could go back to two years ago, and I remember, I think that was around the time that NFTs were having their craze and artists could've been like, oh, well, what if we could release a N F T on United Masters or something like that? Yeah. Or what if we could do this? And it's one of those things, in hindsight, of course the right answer is, yeah, that I don't think we need to do that. [00:54:01] Steve Stoute: Let's stay the you ask anybody who worked with me, I never, ever bought that that bullshit. I'm like, look, until that young kid, that 17 year old kid, 16 year old kid in Atlanta, Fort Lauderdale, los Angeles, is me that they're willing or want to buy an album as an NFT. I am not gonna allow Discord chatter to say that's where my business is doing. [00:54:30] Dan Runcie: I think that's a good example here, because so much of the chatter around this stuff is hyped up by people that are in it. People that were buying NFTs or music related NFTs or things like that were people that were talking about this on the regular, on Discord and Twitter, but it's not the 14 year old [00:54:48] Steve Stoute: guy, you know? and he's my man. But, he owns, Royal. [00:54:51] Dan Runcie: Oh, BLA? [00:54:52] Steve Stoute: BLA, you know, right? You know he put out an album, right. right. You know? Mm-hmm. Oh [00:54:55] Dan Runcie: yeah, I remember that [00:54:56] Steve Stoute: Remember 11 Million in that, right? DJ [00:54:59] Dan Runcie: and then Naz had done something on Royal a couple months later. [00:55:02] Steve Stoute: Right. But you so very smart, very, very smart. Made $11 million on an album. Everybody was like, that's the example. NFTs the whole thing. When you ask people, like regular fans who are fans of DJs that listen to EDM music and you say, you know that album blah da da da, they don't even know what you're talking about. That album that did that was purchased primarily by people that was in that business, the Discord community. It wasn't the general music community that bought it or even was aware of it. It was the people in that community. That's fine, that's fine. That's good for him. It's good for that community. Perfect. But to try to say that that applies to every, the industry at large now, and now the 16 year old kid in Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, whatever, is gonna now want that. That's not the right idea. And you know, it didn't require testing and learning for that. You could just do the work on it, do the math on it. Now there's aspects of the NFT, the blockchain technology, I think is very important, for payments. Yeah. So, I see that application, everything has an application. It's like AI is gonna, is fantastic. NFTs and crypto, and all of its fan the metaverse Fantastic. I just think this accelerated frenzy and FOMO sometimes get you to lose focus on what about it is really important to your business. And what I learned in the frenzy of the NFT marketplace or Web 3 was. The value of blockchain to payments. Payments in the music industry are very difficult because you have many people contributing to a song and, the rights holders need to have something that bound them right on these digital forever. Right. Until they decide to change it. And the blockchain does really good with those agreements in being able to put, you know, 17 people writing one song, whether it be a sample or just original writers, whatever it may be, and allow them to have these digital contracts that make sure everybody gets paid fairly precisely automatically. That part of it I like, I mean, for my, business, I like all of it. Mm-hmm. But specifically, for our business, [00:57:23] Dan Runcie: Does anything about AI spark interest or application in the same way? [00:57:28] Steve Stoute: Well, with AI, I'm trying to figure out, I'd really like it for education. So, you know, if I'm giving you tools, look at Uber, right? And They tell a driver, you know, peak times 4:00 PM this area, the town, the driver know where to go. The driver could be of any education level, but the tools that are provided to that driver, apply to, you know, whether you speak perfect English, you know, your learning English, your education level varies. The simplicity of what they provide you to be a small business is absolutely brilliant. You should look at the backend of Uber. You should see what an Uber driver sees. it'll amaze you. For our artists, I look at them like that. So, where I think AI can be really good is an understanding like when you post during this time, this is when the best time you get results. This is the type of content that works best for you. the, you know, release of songs when you should release them. The timing of it. I think utilizing AI to provide education around building your business can be very helpful for us, because of the fact that it can pull all that information and then provide a very easy way of understanding the best way to move forward based off the intelligence that it gleams. [00:58:47] Dan Runcie: There's so many applications of it, I think both internally for companies like you mentioned, but also how you deal with your stakeholders, how they then deal with their fan bases. It'll also be interesting to see just the bigger picture, what that next big thing is, how people are gonna react to it. A lot of it is accelerated by, How people live in bubbles themselves in a lot of ways. If you're only spending your time on Twitter, on Discord, you're just seeing the frenzy. You think everyone is there with you. Yeah. I remember a year ago I was at a dinner and this was right at the height of web 3. It was a lot of industry professional folks in there, and I remember being the person saying, you're all saying that we're gonna be on web 6 a year from now. There's people, the average person really isn't tapped into this. I don't think we're moving that fast. And a lot of 'em looked at me like I was crazy then. Yeah. And I'm like, it's my job to follow this stuff. I'm not a Luddite here telling you this. This is just the reality. So, [00:59:42] Steve Stoute: Well people, a lot of times people fight, try to solve problems that don't exist. Yeah. Right. Like it's like, you are saying web 6 and all that, we haven't even gotten to, you know, look, we still don't even know what the fuck 5G does yet, right? It's like, let's be really analog about this topic, yeah, we're fixing that, with AT & T but just in general, the regular con general consumer, you ask 'em about 5g, they see it on their thing. They're like, my text didn't go through any faster and my videos are still, you know, it's, Yeah. It's still like cycling. So I thought I had 5g. So sometimes things create more media momentum than the practical consumer experiences and a lot of times, spend a lot of time trying to solve problems that actually don't exist. [01:00:35] Dan Runcie: Agreed on that. Agreed on that. Well, Steve, before we close things out, the first interview we did, we talked about where United Masters was, where the future was, and I believe you told me, [01:00:45] Steve Stoute: but I did pretty good when I look, I haven't seen the interview, since, but I don't know if I did pretty good in my prediction. Do you remember? [01:00:52] Dan Runcie: You said we are in the first inning of this cause I think I asked you, what does the future look like with exits and future? You said we're in the first inning, we're early in this perspective. What inning do you feel like we're at now and what do you see for the future of the business. [01:01:07] Steve Stoute: I believe that we're still in the the first third of the innings. I think we're in inning to bottom of the second, you know, top of the third kind of thing. and the reason why is because now money is back into music. When I first sat with you, There was no vC money in music businesses anymore. They'd fucking ran. They lost all that money with all those other, you know, versions of this idea for reasons that make perfect sense, that the money had up, the money was going to social media and, you know, FinTech and a bunch of the other things like why me? Why music. And in the last five years, whether it be catalog sales or, independent music now being discovered by financial systems, Goldman Sachs and the others investors more, mainstream investors have realized that there's growth there and there's globalization of music and all of the things that bring energy back to the industry and that the record labels don't have this. Choke hold on it like they used to have. And it's not as difficult and to understand, which was another thing that people didn't understand about the music was They made it so difficult. People thought it was like a business that was so hard to figure out and all that other kind of stuff. Cuz over the rights. But because it's now become clear where I used to have to explain it to every single person. They're like, so you're competing with Spotify, like, no, you'd have to explain. it. They understand it now, which is cool. So now money's in, which means more entrepreneurs are gonna come in and build services like ours and other alternative services tools. The fastest growing segment of the music business is independent music. The fastest growing aspect of the music business is global music. Global music, the record companies never dominated because English speaking music was the only thing that really mattered. I mean, you just about it, Bad Bunny headline Coachella, right? How many people don't even know what the fuck he's saying? I mean, if there's 80,000 people there with maybe 65,000, don't know what the fuck he's saying. Yet they're dancing, all this great music coming outta Africa. Mm-hmm. That people are just going crazy over. That never happened. At the rate this has happened. Now, all of that independence rising globalization and music rising and money coming in. Is now you're about to see the acceleration of what can happen as a result of the momentum. It was always headwinds. And now I would say in the last year, it's been tailwinds. It's an exciting time. It's a very exciting time. it's an extremely exciting time. it's no longer in the dark. It's no longer something that, you know, big business. it wasn't paying attention to. Everybody sees it now. and when everybody sees opportunity and money and. Value creation and the fact that you can disrupt this, you know, a hundred billion dollar business of the music business, it can be disrupted because the barriers of entry has completely been removed like every other industry where the barriers of entry has removed, money goes into it, entrepreneurs come into it and new value is created. and I think that's being recognized as we speak here today. So we're in the bottom of the second, top of the third. [01:04:47] Dan Runcie: Nice. Alright, bro, appreciate that. [01:04:49] Steve Stoute: Always, as always, This is good man. All right. Trapital. Let's rock and roll. [01:04:53] Dan Runcie: Yes sir. man. Cool. [01:04:55] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 18 May 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Artist Independence (with Steve Stoute) full Dan Runcie UnitedMasters and Translation CEO Steve Stoute returns to the show, fresh off a new deal with R&B star Brent Faiyaz for a reported $50 million. Brent had his pick at multiple major labels, but chose to stay independent with UnitedMasters. We talk about how independent companies can compete with majors on upfront money, competitive advantages in the music industry, and more. Steve and I also chat about the industry at-large: AI, entrepreneurship, subscription prices and more. Here’s what we hit on: 2:19 The ups and downs of entrepreneurship  06:11 Building two companies at once 10:56 Positioning UnitedMasters in the music distribution space  13:16 Does anyone in music have a moat? 15:56 Why Brent Faiyaz chose to sign with UnitedMasters 27:33 Should the DSPs raise prices? 30:07 Artists and creators becoming mini-media channels  36:58 How NIL (name, image, likeness) is like the independent music business 37:19 Is Steve going to strike more NIL deals? 45:52 Why every artists needs a Chief Technology Officer 54:30 Separating real from hype: blockchain, to web3, to AI Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Steve Stoute, @SteveStoute This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Steve Stoute: They used to have a moat, but no longer do they have a moat. And I don't think anybody independent music has a moat. I think Distro kid has a lane and TuneCore has a lane, and United masses have a lane. And, you know, others have, certain strengths about them. but, I think the only moat you have is the moat that is a true result of the success that you have. If people choose you and you build a strong business, and you're growing, that's the quote unquote moat. [00:00:27] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:55] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode covered a wide range of topics, but the key thing that's central to it is artist independence, and we're able to sit down with none other than Steve Stoute, who is the founder and CEO of United Masters founder and c e o of translation, and has been working in music and entertainment. For decades now. This is actually his third time on the podcast, and we covered it all. We started the conversation talking about motivations and how you were able to stay consistent as an entrepreneur, given the ups and downs of that lifestyle. Then we talked about translation, United Masters, Artist Independence, a bunch of trends happening right now and how. A company stays through all of the waves of technology waves, whether it's blockchain from a couple years ago to web three to where things are with AI now. Really fun conversation. Steve always brings it in these talks too, so it's a really great listen, hope you enjoy it. Here's our conversation. [00:01:53] Dan Runcie: All right. We're back with the Trapital podcast. Yeah. We got the one and only Steve Stoute here. I think this is your third time on the pod. [00:02:00] Steve Stoute: Really? I thought. I guess I thought it was twice. Thought This was my second time. [00:02:04] Dan Runcie: We did one time. We was at Empire Studio there. Yeah. We did it virtual during the pandemic, and then we got this one. [00:02:11] Steve Stoute: Oh, well, I'm fan of it. very early. You were? Yeah, I was on it very, very early. I think you're a good job. [00:02:18] Dan Runcie: Appreciate that. [00:02:18] Steve Stoute: Thanks for having me back. [00:02:19] Dan Runcie: Thank you. Yeah. These conversations are always good. And I wanna start this one and a place we haven't started others. I feel like we normally dive into the business, but take it a step back. You've been building businesses as an entrepreneur for decades now. How do you stay even keeled? How do you stay consistent with it, just knowing the ups and downs that naturally happen with building businesses? [00:02:42] Steve Stoute: Well, the fact that I appear to be even keeled is a compliment because, I certainly am emotionally attached to the businesses I build. I know there's, you know, the saying, don't be emotional about business, but when I'm building something from an original idea that I have, it's, you birthed the idea. I'm emotionally attached to the success of it, and the organization around it and the perception of it. So, you've been through those tumultuous cycles, so you tend to not chase the highs or chase the lows. and that sounds good. but it is definitely harder to do that when you're emotionally attached than, you know, understanding the theory that you should do that. And I think experience helps a bit, takes the edge off. But yeah, I would say to you, you just, like, for me, I've been able to sustain the energy and sustain through the ups and downs, through, sort of expecting them and not, chasing the highs like that's where the big mistake is when something great happens or a series of great things happen, you know, respecting it, but not chasing it because I believe that that's still not, gonna prevent the tumultuous time from coming. Because [00:03:56] Dan Runcie: I think the tough part with that, and this is something I know I struggle with too, it's tying your own satisfaction, your own esteem at particular points with those highs when things are going well. Yeah. And it's great to say those things, but I know even myself, it's tough to be able to stay even keeled when things are going well. The phone starts ringing more, you start getting more opportunities, more looks for things. Yeah, yeah, [00:04:20] Steve Stoute: Yeah. And it becomes more hectic. And then you have to hire more people. And then that creates another set of problems and responsibilities. And look, building a business isn't easy. I said it, the shop, know that the biggest mistake that I see is the glorification of entrepreneurs like, almond entrepreneurs. So therefore, like, you know, the sacrifice that it requires, to be able to know that failure is imminent or success is imminent that you may have an idea and you can go years without realizing the opportunity and it may go to somebody else. people ask me, how do I do it? And, you know, I'm here in San Francisco, I was, You know, in LA the day before that I was in Miami, the day before that, the day before that I was in LA again, it's like, it just keeps going. And like, you know, not seeing your family an d sacrificing some of the comforts of home or the comforts that you have of a routine, it's also part of the sacrifice. So it's not easy, and you have to really be committed to it. It almost has to be your A plan, your B plan. Your C plan is that plan, like you won't find joy or fulfillment. in doing anything else. At least that's how I feel. [00:05:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think a lot of it's accepting those trade-offs and knowing that you can't do it all. I think I've heard you talk about this on the shop as well, whether it's so-and-so as the birthday party, so-and-so as the this, and yeah, it's great if you can line up and do those things, but you've chosen this life to be able to be in LA, be in Miami, be in New York, and back to back days and Yeah, doing that requires this type of commitment to it and you can't do everything. [00:06:04] Steve Stoute: Yeah. and hiring great people, is part of it. but putting your own personal comfort is certainly not a priority. [00:06:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. Interesting you brought up the hiring piece because I think you've definitely built up a reputation as someone that's always operating on 10. So you naturally wanna surround yourself with people that are at that level. What are some of the things that you look for to see, okay, does this person have the edge? Cuz you know you're gonna be running all the time. Can they run with you? [00:06:36] Steve Stoute: it's very hard to, you know, resumes or LinkedIn pages, whatever you use can tell you a lot, but they don't measure resourcefulness or effort, right? So those things do not appear in any aspect of looking at, a person's profile. So I've learned through failure, you know, I may have not, I may have, I have high, I have hired and fired. you know, 3000 plus people, you know, so you learn what are the qualities or what are the questions to ask, to try to help, mitigate that the kind of person you need for your company. It doesn't mean that person's bad. You could have made a bad hire, not because the person's not good, they just don't fit your team. I mean, you see it in the NBA all the time. Players on somebody that was on the Lakers or somewhere else goes to another team and then all of a sudden they do well cuz it's the system, it's the culture, it's the coach. And that's the same thing with employment. Like, you just may be good just not for this company. So understanding what you specifically need versus, oh, this person worked at, so tech high, or they worked at Google, they worked at Airbnb, we want that right? Pulling them into a startup or pulling them into that culture or pulling them into that product not made completely, is completely different, specifically in our case, than what they were doing over there. And not every single job transfers one to one, whether it's the music business, the tech industry, the marketing business. We hire people at translation all the time. They came from Ogilvy. It's like, well, that has nothing to do with us, right? Or they come from Goodbee and you're like, well, that ain't gonna work here, right? Why? Just because the way we are, set up, what they may be used to, the programming that they run versus what we run, they, you know, may not be a great culture fit. And so, knowing that helps mitigate that risk. So knowing who you are, knowing what kind of people respond well to your culture is an important aspect. Not only just the mission statement stuff. Yeah, great, But like really innately knowing it and feeling what works. What are the common attributes of the people that are successful at your company that are more nuanced based and knowing how to identify that in others and what other companies share those values so that people that come from those companies tend to do well at your company. [00:09:05] Dan Runcie: You mentioned how this is a tension point in music in this industry. I think we've seen it from time and time, whether it's the record label side and folks on the creative versus streaming and tech coming in and some of the pushback there. I think you've been able to have a good vantage point with both of these because you have a ad agency and you also have a music distribution service. The talents, the skills needed for one, may not make sense for the other, but they also have a bit of a unique identity there. How is it with that perspective? [00:09:38] Steve Stoute: Difficult, hard. at the onset of starting United Masses, I put translation in united masses under. United Masters, Inc. And understanding that in order to do that, to build a marketplace that has creative or brands on one side and creative and culture and cultural impact and creators on the other side, and building that marketplace takes hiring unique people because we sit at the convergence of culture, technology, and, storytelling. Mm-hmm. So you need people who are prolific at least two of those three things, every single person. And that's the only way you have a shot of getting that convergence to work as one and hiring for that and building organization structures around that probably is the most important thing. That I do every day is understanding where could we be more efficient in that model? What kind of people do we need in order to accelerate that model? How do we scale that model as a result of the talent we have and the talent we need? That is very difficult, and it is probably, it's definitely a top five priority, from the CEO. [00:10:56] Dan Runcie: And I assume as well, part of this is required with the nature of how you've positioned United Masters, right? If you don't have these differentiating factors, if you don't have this tie in to culture or trying to present sync opportunities or things like that, then it could easily be seen as another music distribution service. And that's not what Well, [00:11:17] Steve Stoute: Dan, you've been following the company very closely before you could be, just another distribution company before that became popular, I had this idea with that differentiating factor seven years ago, right? So I knew from the onset that distribution was table stakes. and the building of United Masters with translation and power powering the brand sync opportunities, the influence and type of opportunities, was something that I had the early vision on. So yeah, it's important, but it's not important in response to, oh, all of these, you know, distributors in the market now, so you need to X, Y, Z. I was doing the X, Y, Z before they even had the idea to be in music distribution, to be honest with you. And a lot of these music distribution companies that you see are coming out, are looking at United masses and honestly copying it. Some of it they can't copy. That's fine. some of it they can't copy. It's 20 years of experience in, you know, running record companies and building an advertising business to be able to do this. So you think you can replicate the outcome without replicating the process, which I've never seen actually happen, the theory is right? But to replicate it, to hire the people, to have the credibility in the marketplace to speak to brands and hire the type of people needed to pull us off. Good luck, I do believe, and I am supportive just to add to all of that, great distribution companies that support independent music, that have something to contribute to the independent music movement are welcome and everybody, you know, rises as a result of it. So I'm not necessarily, I don't look at. at these other, distributors as competitors, I look at us as contributing to an industry that's, changing the music business dramatically and if you have something to bring to the table, it's beneficial to all. [00:13:17] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I think for United Masters as well, you've been able to have your moat essentially as you've described it. You have the years of experience, you have the ability to connect dots in ways that others don't, and that's led you to land some of the artists you have. You have a recent deal that's been announced with Brent Faz and a long-term partnership there. Can you talk a bit about that deal and how things came together? [00:13:43] Steve Stoute: Well, a moat is a bit of a stretch. I don't know if we have a moat. We have a great business model that certain artists, labels can find use of. [00:13:56] Dan Runcie: Do you think anyone has a moat in this space? [00:13:59] Steve Stoute: No. No. The record companies, the traditional record companies had a moat, when physical distribution was a barrier of entry, right? It's very hard to press up 500,000 CDs or vinyls or whatever it is. and distribute it to 7,000 points of distribution. That's not easy to do for a small, a single individual or a very small business. So that was their mode. They also had a monopoly on radio and, MTV, you know, MTV doesn't matter at all and, for music per se. And, radio matters much less than it used to. for discovery, right? So they used to have a moat but no longer do they have a moat And I don't think anybody independent music has a moat. I think Distro kid has a lane and TuneCore has a lane, and United masses have a lane. And, you know, others have, certain strengths about them. but, I think the only moat you have is the moat that is a true result of the success that you have. If people choose you and you build a strong business, and you're growing, that's the quote unquote moat. but other than that, I don't think anyone has, a clear defining advantage that no one else can replicate, right? A nd just because we have the brand stuff doesn't mean that that's the, you know, I wanna believe that's very important to the artists. But somebody else may have another thing that is if marketed well and that's what they think their advantages. I don't have the ultimate advantage cuz you know, brands and brand partnerships in sync may not necessarily be what you find most valuable. It could be a distribution company that creates and manufacturer's merch and you're like, oh shit, that's the one I want. Mm-hmm. Right. So I don't, wanna say that specifically. We have that. [00:15:56] Dan Runcie: That's fair. I do think that that mentality is part of the differentiating that I think is lost in music overall to some extent, because I think that you have few record labels that truly have unique brands. I think you have few music streaming services that have unique brands, and when you have something, it's clearer to be able to say, who is this for? Who is this not for, right? And clearly, I assume you were able to do some of that with Brent Faz and that partnership. He saw something with how you all do business and said, okay, this is for me. [00:16:32] Steve Stoute: Yeah, Well, Brent is a very, very unique talent. I obviously he wants to be with something that. A company, distributor, or partner that represents values that are there to him. So creativity is extremely important to him. The fact that we do have translation really matters in that instance cuz brand partnerships is something that he holds near and dear to him. He also was very respectful of, my, you know, reputation and what I've accomplished and chose that over others who, you know, was offering more money but didn't have the, same values that he had or shared values he didn't share their values. He was very particular about that everyone who knows him knows that, he's high taste. So he wanted to be with, you know, a brand, a distributor, a partner that was, had a sense of premiumness to it. That was important to him. So I think the combination of those three things and, you know, just our chemistry, his manager Ty, is also a fantastic, really intelligent, guy who I've developed a great relationship and a lot of respect for, also played a very significant role in this partnership. And we're gonna do great things together. I knew this day would come, I knew where so much respect for guys, like maybe maybe for Toby, right? Toby Nii, who, I keep screwing up his name and he keeps making fun of me screwing up. His name is actually part of his name now. When I say it. But, I have so much respect for him and fat because we've done so well together and, they've committed to us and we've committed to them. And it was a proof point that an independent artist can be successful, can be, you know, a global brand. And I directly tie the work that we've done with Toby and, and others. And others. He just comes to mind. I spent a lot of time with him for why Brett chose us. Brett chose us. and now you got Brett who sold out his tour in three days around the world and shit. That kind of star deciding to stay independent, not go with a major label. And they offered him everything, all the money in the world. And I knew that trend is gonna happen. That's gonna happen, man. You're gonna start seeing this happen all the time, like, you know, the one moat, again, back to the legacy labels that they have, is that because they own your masters, when your contract is up, what they do, their, their thing is start to give you back the shit they took from you, right? So now you leave, you finish your 8, 5, 7 album commitment, whatever it is, right? And it's no longer can they give you any more money to stay. So they go, we'll give you back album one. And you're like, I'll stay on Sony because now Album one reverts I'll stay on Universal cause album one reverts. So they stay stuck in the system because all they do is now give you back what you shouldn't have never given actually, or they never should have taken. So they hold you cuz you're tethered to that, right? And no matter what, an independent distributor can't give you your first album that you wrote, because you never had in the first place. You never, you know, so you never had it in the first place, however. So that's the moat that they have with legacy acts that will stay. So it'll be hard for legacy acts to leave when they can give you back that kind of stuff. But the new artists who are building their careers are considering independent distributors such as myself or others, at the same consideration set as they're considering a label. If you can give 'em money and you can provide them services, look man, you know, people talk about like, oh, these labels have a service. We picked up our systems. We distributed a song, from a great, great young artist, good man, superstar Pride outta Mississippi has a song called painting Pictures. The song was released in October. The The song moves like this, my building, just, I don't know, 3000 streams a day or something like that. and then all of a sudden, on February 6th, it goes from 3000 to 9,000 or something like that. Our systems catch it, right? We're looking for the second derivative. We're measuring acceleration. Boom. We find it, Two or three days later, other labels. It goes from 9,000 to 27,000, and then five days later it's compounded to fucking 400,000 streams, something in a day. It's crazy. But we already have identified it. all the labels are offering the money, three and a half million, 4 million, this, that, and the third. He chose to stay with United Masters. Everybody said, well, they can't get you this. They can't do that. Songs gonna be number one at radio. It's not like they have an advantage anymore, you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's not even like a problem. It's Mm-hmm. nothmm. if it was like a heavy lift, the artist made a great song. We gotta work it at radio. There's a formula to that money is part of that formula, right? And we can do it. it. Somebody can't do it better than us. Universal can't do it better than us. They don't like for artists to think that, right? They would like the perception of that to be true, but it's not the real marketing is coming out of, you know, the artists themselves and your relationships with Apple and Spotify and other distributors and YouTube, and we have the same relationships they have. So the new artists know that. They don't see, the only thing the record company can really give them that they believe they can get, that they can't get an independent is money. And I hope the Brett Fires deal just shows that we have money too. It's like, [00:22:18] Dan Runcie: How big is that money difference? Because I think that's the one thing that people do. [00:22:21] Steve Stoute: It's getting smaller and smaller as the record companies are losing. They're letting people go. their margins are getting smaller and smaller. They're firing a lot of people. don't know if no one talks about this. this, but they're not running around writing those big ass checks like they used to anymore. They Hell no. no. No, no, no, no, no, no. [00:22:41] Dan Runcie: Because I think people will look at a deal like the one that Drake did last year. Yeah. For instance. And they're, say the Ruter mal is somewhere 300, 400 [00:22:50] Steve Stoute: It was more than that. Much more than that. But that's different. They have Drake's, remember what I told you, they got Drake's masters, right? That's different than an artist starting from Drake releasing the first. song with Trey songs. All right, whatever. When he started his career, like if Drake released a song today that Drake considers an independent music company, at the same rate that he, looks at a major label cuz the major label can't say anything to him today that will make him believe outside of money that they have an advantage. [00:23:25] Dan Runcie: This topic too, reminds me of something similar because we're talking about the record labels and the streaming service as well, who's bringing in money, and there's all this debate right now around pricing for these services. The record labels want those prices higher. The streaming for songs? Oh no, for the monthly subscription that customers pay. [00:23:45] Steve Stoute: Oh, oh, okay. [00:23:46] Dan Runcie: Yeah, yeah. So they want the hire, the streaming services, well, a few of them still want to keep them as low as possible, but we're seeing things trending in that direction. You owning a music distribution service, relying on that streaming revenue as well, where do you take, what's your take right now on pricing on the consumer side and Yeah, [00:24:08] Steve Stoute: A few things there. Number one, the record companies had the opportunity when they held all of the leverage. To control pricing, to control pricing for the customer, as well as the price per stream. All these things were set up at a time when the record companies, you know, got big advances from Apple, you know, got ownership in Spotify, so they were cool with whatever was going on. As they're starting to lose market share now they need to go find growth, and the only way to find growth is go to the streaming services and say, charge more money so we can make more money. But the problem is that if the artist got the lion share the money, rather than the label getting the lion share the money, the current pricing model will work really well. The artists, if they were independent and they were receiving 80% of the money that came from streaming, and it went to each individual artist, they'd be fine with it. They'd be making a lot more money than they're making right now. The independent artists are making a fortune of money. Go ask russ. Go ask Toby. Go ask Brent what he's done for so many years. Why he stays independent, because they've really received the lion share the money. The record companies have bloated overhead, whether it be office space, employees and salaries of their CEOs and shit like that, and whether they're public or or not. In the case of universal, it's public. They need to show growth, and they're losing margin on how much money they're making per album or release, And the only way to find growth, real growth is the diversify of their business, which they haven't been so good at. There's not that many entrepreneurs insider, a record companies. Jimmy Iovine was one. Dr., Jay-Z was another, but there's not that many. You don't see that many. I'm not making this up. So you're talking about CEOs who were fat and happy, now all of a sudden have to innovate and they don't have a person that can make beats by Drake. They don't have a person who's gonna create the next thing. So now they gotta go to apple and Spotify and squeeze more. The problem is their leverage with Apple and Spotify have sort of, gone in the other direction. They don't have as much leverage as they had seven years ago, eight years ago, 10 years ago. ago. So that's the landscape. I the artists should get paid more money. That's we built our model to do, make sure the artists get paid more money and have great partnerships with, the platforms. And that's how I see it right now. yeah. So to answer your question on pricing, whether or not Spotify or Apple should charge more, I mean yeah. If they're gonna continue to grow so that you don't wanna price it so that people start canceling subscriptions, right? You gotta price it right so that it keeps growing. Cuz the more they grow, the more the pot of money grows. But before I get to even worrying about what they're charging, I need to worry about the artists are getting the lion share of revenue, and that's what we, stand for United Masses, and that's what we've been able to accomplish today. Okay. [00:27:33] Dan Runcie: And at least for the artists that are part of United Masters, they don't have the rights holder relationships that the signed artists do on the record label. So that side doesn't necessarily affect them as much. I think you definitely addressed that piece of it. I think the other side of it is looking at streaming prices on all the video services and how Netflix and all these other services have definitely expanded beyond their 9 99 price point. And then for you all as a business, knowing that a company like Spotify, which does have lower churn than a lot of those other companies as well, if prices were to increase 10%, that's 10% more revenue, at least for the streaming revenue side of the business. For a company like United Masters given the cut you have [00:28:16] Steve Stoute: Again, yes. and at some point you can raise the price to the point where somebody says, you know what? I'd rather not do that. I'd rather have an not that service. I'd rather listen to it free on YouTube, or I'd rather deal with ads. It costs too much. I don't know what that price is, but there's absolutely a point of diminishing return and setting any price. You gotta just know what that price is. So rather than me sit here and go, yeah, they should raise prices, which I could easily say, cuz it's beneficial to me. I want them to raise prices and continue to grow. Cuz as that pot grows, there's more money to be distributed. If they price it wrong, it hurts us. That's my only point. [00:28:59] Dan Runcie: That's fair. I get that. This topic as well, reminds me of another thing that I wanted to chat with you about. [00:29:07] Steve Stoute: We're talking about, reminds you of something else. That's great. That's how you write, you write like that, you find all these, comparisons, to different business models. in fact, you know, that's why I'm a fan of what you guys do of what you do. but it's funny when you say it, actually, reminds me of [00:29:22] Dan Runcie: That's funny. That's funny. I was actually gonna say, this isn't a random reminding, this is actually something you had said in that episode of the shop. I think it was the last one you did. You were, I think Drusky was on there. A fewer folks were on there. Yeah. You were talking about dollars that were moving from traditional tv Yeah. And going towards creators. Yeah. And how much of an opportunity that is. And I know you, with the business you have with translation, a lot of your work has been focused on doing these traditional TV partnerships, whether it's with a State Farm or some of the other clients you have. I'm curious to hear how this type of transition impacts your work and what opportunities you see and how you may have be thinking about the future on that side. [00:30:07] Steve Stoute: So the media buying companies, people who buy media for brands are seeing and advising that television ratings outside of sports are going in the wronging direction and advising to put that money more into digital channels that are primarily driven by creators. The creators have deep connections with their fans. The creators can create a network effect. So you can hire, you know, 50 creators who who have deep impact in different regions, communities, and you can buy against it. and sort of create marketplace momentum around a movement, a brand, a product, whatever it may be. My question toski is, this thing is shifting in your direction or what are you doing to prepare for it? I said something so long ago on, on my man Swae. I said that that artists are going to become mini media channels. I said this six years ago, mini media channels. If you look at the artists and you look at them like what cable channels were, you watch ESPN, they have an audience, you watch Turner, they have an audience, you watch Discovery, they have an audience. The artists, the influencers are gonna be exactly like those with obviously much smaller audiences, but the relationship between the artists and the audience or the influence in the audience is where the media money is going. ESP N, Turner and Discovery are prepared for that. that. Their organizations are set up for it. They stay on brand so that when the money comes their way, the brand knows, whoever's spending money against it knows exactly what they're getting and the kind of audience that they have. What What are the creators doing to be prepared for that movement of revenue coming to them? How are they set up for that? Because in the beginning it starts to look like, oh shit, this is all found money. But I'm saying, this is not just found money. This is the new industry. [00:32:23] Dan Runcie: Is there anyone that you see that's doing a good job of this right now? Or any creators that are ready for this moment [00:32:29] Steve Stoute: there's so There's so many of them. A lot of YouTube creators are doing it. You know, mr. Beast disguise, I mean, you know, the names. They all, you know, have created, you know, products that create lines around the block. I mean, you know, you don't look at it this way anymore because, she's transcended what you first seen her as. But Kim Kardashian is that she's the ultimate influencer. She's the influencer's influencer, right? Right. And she's built billions of dollars of business as a result of using her culture, her influence. that started with Instagram and social media. So like yeah, we've seen a lot of people do it, right? The musicians are now starting to do it right, because they're starting to realize Rihanna and Fenty. And others are copying or copying or seeing that, look, the streaming business is great and touring is great, but my impact, my movement, because of my digital footprint can allow me the opportunity to sell other higher margin items, like beauty products like lingerie, like footwear. So understanding your influence, whether you're a musician or personality and who your audience is creating opportunities for a lot of money to be made. [00:33:50] Dan Runcie: And how does that shape the type of work that translation will continue to do in the future working with creators? [00:33:58] Steve Stoute: Well, our number one responsibility at translation is to be lockstep with culture and lockstep in real lockstep. So as we help provide solutions for brands, creative, strategic solutions, We understand that what I just said about where this business is going and the influences and their impact that they have, we're very fluent at that. So it doesn't impact us in a way that says, oh, now we have to change our business as a result of this. We just create in these new landscapes, right? Like, it doesn't impact us at all. In fact, it hinders. The more bigger traditional agencies who have not even wrapped their brain around diversity culture, they're still running an old playbook. This new thing, they hope goes away, but we've seen this over and over again, right? It's the dilemma that happens, the innovation dilemma that takes place and whether you do it yourself or you get disrupted by somebody else. if you hold on to what you've done, you'll be disrupted. When we built translation, we built it under the manifesto of translating culture for Fortune 500 companies. And translating always needs to happen. It's why I came up with the name, everything needs to be translated, right? So the fact that tr culture needs to be translated and because it's translated and it changes, you have to be clear and understanding of it. I talk about that all of a sudden, the speed of culture, the speed in which, you know, someone can become an overnight success. Like there's a tape, a footage. You should run it, in this spot and I'll send it to you. Where Lil Nas X, goes on, he eats a piece of pizza January, 2019. He's eating a piece of pizza on Instagram. And He's like, yo, this is Nas X I got 1000 plus followers on spotify. I got 3000 on Instagram, you know, a couple, you know, thousand views on YouTube, but I think Old town Road is gonna be a hit. and I'll see you guys a year from now, literally a year to the day he has on a white fucking mink eating pizza. And he is like, you know, it's little Nas x 30 million on spotify, da da, da. And that's no different than skims disrupting spanks in a year. Like that's no different than other. Everybody is ready for the, that's the speed of culture and it's fast. It'll never be this slow again. Like that's a fact. So being a brand of an agency, a creative company, a influencer or whatever you are, if you are not aware, prepared, built for that speed, you will get left. [00:36:59] Dan Runcie: The other area that's move in just as fast, probably even faster is NIL and everything happening there with [00:37:06] Steve Stoute: This you of NIL? You were gonna say that, that reminds me of NIL deals. Oh shit. How the fuck did he do that? That reminds me of a great piece of pizza. I just had Steve again, NIL deals. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. [00:37:19] Dan Runcie: And I think we've seen a lot of fast movement there. Yes, we have. You've definitely probably see plenty of opportunities cuz I think the space is very unregulated. There's random things happening. [00:37:32] Steve Stoute: Yeah. And yeah, you should go look at, just so that you properly, as you definitely, know my work and have been, very much appreciative of my contribution. I did a documentary at LeBron James called student athlete that came out five years ago. You should look at that. You should play clips of it. We followed four athletes over a year that were high school, that were college athletes. One of 'em got injured and fucking, like, had to sleep in his car because you know, you are a D one athlete, you get injured, you don't make it to the pros. You don't get any fucking health insurance anymore. They fucking cut you. That's the end of it. Right. So you're playing for this lottery ticket and you don't get shit. And the fact that these student athletes don't get a chance to actually get a great education because they have fucking practice every day or games on Friday or traveling to get to a game all over the place. But the school benefits from all of the advertising dollars. And all of the conference dollars was something that we put a highlight on and it was really, making it and seeing these stories. You felt like this is of modern day slavery. Mm-hmm. So NIL deals the Wild, wild west, the transfer portal as well. So you had NIL deals and the transfer portal happening at the same time. What is this doing? This reminds me of the independent music business, because now these student athletes really now are independent business people. They can change schools with less friction than they could have five years ago, 10 years ago. Forget it. you change schools, you had to sit outta here. You couldn't do this, you couldn't do that. By the time you could play, you know, you lost a step or you weren't the same, or you were too far removed from the game, whatever it may be. So the hindrance of that made you stay at the school and not go through that problem. That was the way they kept you. Well, it's certainly not fair that the football in which you have to stay three years, right? And basketball pay for 90% of all of the other scholarships That the fucking sports program had. And yet these guys don't get any money. It is not right, you know, think about players getting thrown out of bowl games because they got tattoos, free. It's crazy. So I'm all for NIL deals and I'm happy, it's the wild, wild west. And I like the fact that there's a guy or girl on campus make making $2 million a year balling in a fucking Porsche Bentley or investing his or her money, whatever they're doing, helping their family. I'm happy for the fact that they are getting a chance to monetize their impact beyond a scholarship, that is fantastic, but definitely a education that is not the same because they're practicing the amount of time they're practicing and traveling. The way they're traveling, this is the least that they can do is get paid for their services. And the NCAA got away with a lot for a very very long time. You should look at that. Look, when the student athlete, it's a bylaw, right? that actually became a thing and why it was set up that way and what it means and the implications of it. It was a way to hog, tie or build a moat so that these kids would never leave. As college sports grew and the money grew, all of a sudden it became, these assets, right? Became really lucrative. These conferences became very lucrative, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in TV deals. I'm happy for it. In fact, we represent the Big 12 and, shout out to my man, Brett, who now runs the Big 12. He came from running the Brooklyn Nets. He, I worked with him when he moved the Nets from New Jersey to Brooklyn. Then he went over to run a aspect of Roc Nation and now he runs the Big 12. He's the future of collegiate sports cuz he understands the music industry and the brand building industry. He understands the business of running sports team, the nets, the arena, the Barclays, bringing in talent to fill that arena pricing, dynamic pricing, media deals. He did it all. And now he's taken that combination of skills to Big 12 and he's once NIL deals. In fact, that's his competitive advantage because none of those guys who run all those other conferences, they're all like, shit, we gotta give these NIL deals. The students are gonna do X, Y, Z in this transfer portal. What are we gonna do? Brett's? Like, this is what I've been doing my whole career. I can't wait to set up NIL programs, bring brands in, you know, treat these students athletes like the same way we treated artists in my previous career. it's dope and, it's way, way, overdue. This reminds you of, [00:42:46] Dan Runcie: Didn't remind me of something, but I was gonna ask you, is this an area that you would work more directly in through translation, through the agency, working with the [00:42:54] Steve Stoute: Yeah. I mean, yes. Look, it's not like, again, we represent the Big 12, so our contribution to that, is adjacent to a lot of that kind of stuff, you know, there is an opportunity to set up a. a division that works specifically on NIL deals. I think it's much more, urgent that the CAAs do and the UTAs and the WMEs have that because their brokers of that kind of stuff. Where they have talent and they brands and they put 'em together, we do that for our clients. We don't do that as a industry trade. We don't just like connect random brands with, you know, artists unless we are, or athletes, unless we are doing much more immersive experiences and creative for those brands. But, you know, I'm happy we represent Beats. We did the, Beats deal with Bronny, then we did the commercial with Bronny and his dad with LeBron and like I love that. I love it. Not only for that story, but the fact that again, this 17 year old kid signed a deal with Beats. And we can actually market that and advertise that as, without him losing eligibility or whatever the fuck these guys were coming up with is dope. [00:44:07] Dan Runcie: Right. Especially given that everyone was gonna make money off of his name. So I'm glad he can do it himself. [00:44:12] Steve Stoute: Of course, like, you speak to Jalen Rose about this like when they're at Michigan man, the Fab 5 and these guys, [00:44:18] Dan Runcie: Oh, that was bad. [00:44:19] Steve Stoute: That's terrible man. Selling jerseys with their name on it and these guys. like, everybody's looking at investigating the, what they did and what did Webber do and what he did to try to feed his family. You can't even afford to get your family to come see you play. Mm-hmm mm-hmm. Well of course corruption's gonna be in it. You mean, I can't eat? I have a scholarship though. And my parents can't even come see me play cuz we can't afford it. You don't think that's gonna lead to corruption? What are you crazy? [00:44:47] Dan Runcie: It's this weird juxtaposition where I think either, Webber or Rose talked about this in that documentary [00:44:52] Steve Stoute: It's the coach by the way.Yeah. Gets paid $10 million, in most, towns or cities in America, the highest paid employee of that city, or town is the coach of the football team. Yep. Or the basketball team. They're the highest earning person in the entire city. [00:45:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah. They save at the state level too for the Colleges [00:45:12] Steve Stoute: Then they get deals with Nike and the coach makes the player wear Nikes or Reebok or whatever it is, the coach makes that decision. Everyone's making money except the student themselves, but they're getting a scholarship. [00:45:27] Dan Runcie: Right, it's crazy [00:45:28] Steve Stoute: And definitely an education with an asterisk next to it. Isn't that fair? Are you fucking outta your mind? [00:45:35] Dan Runcie: It's crazy. It's crazy. I'm glad this is happening and I'm glad we're seeing this shift. [00:45:41] Steve Stoute: Yo, pull up student athlete. When you do this, I'm you the edit right now. I'm gonna send you the Lil NAS thing and the student athlete thing. Oh yeah. We'll throw it in there. Put it in. That's why we're doing video. video. [00:45:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no. That's why we, no, this will be good. And then we have the clips and everything. Yeah. Shifting gears, last time you were on, you talked about chief technology officers and why artists need to have tech side folks on their platform. Yeah, [00:46:06] Steve Stoute: Yeah, brother. [00:46:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, How have you seen this develop the past couple years since? [00:46:10] Steve Stoute: I haven't, the artists that obviously have the foundational truth is as technology is becoming much more important in content and video services, every artist needs a chief technology officer. That's the foundational truth. The practical reality is that that's not gonna be the case, which is the opportunity for platforms like ours to be extremely useful in providing tools, intelligence, information that is allows the artist, the influencer to take action in a very user-friendly way to help grow their career. So essentially, we wanna be the Chief Technology Officer as a platform for all of these artists. I believe that to be true. In fact, in building our platform, the remit to my engineers is that, that we have to anticipate what the artist's needs are. And build that for them. We're it for a community of artists. We're not building it to best interface with Apple or Spotify or YouTube. That's one part of it. 80% of it is what do you, I say all the time, man, I'm about to put my name in the system. I'm about to upload my first song. That experience. If I nail this, I'm gonna change the life for me and my mama. I'm gonna become my dreams. I'm gonna be able to quit this bullshit job and really live out what my talents are when I hit this button and upload this song. That's how they feel. to build a technology that's empathetic to that, and then as they continue to grow, make sure that they have the tools and they need information in order to do their thing. That's what I tell each and every engineer that comes into my company. [00:48:17] Dan Runcie: That trajectory makes sense because if you're starting out, you're a dependent, you're not gonna have the resources to hire someone to pay them 1 50, 200 a year, whatever it is to be a CTO on staff. Yeah. How could you leverage the partnerships you have? Maybe if you get to a certain point, you could have someone internally. [00:48:35] Steve Stoute: Of course. Of course, you know drake and, you know Beyonce and Pharrell and they have a version of a chief technology officer, somebody who, their interaction with technology is seamless and smooth and they understand it and they have relationships and, you know, they could speak with the tech leaders and be able to find the value and where the integration and partnerships can best take form. Up until you get to that point, we should be the platform to provide that for you at scale [00:49:08] Dan Runcie: Artists as well. This is also valuable because there's so many new things that are always coming. Obviously I talk about them often in capital. You're evaluating themself for your own business, whether it's a couple years ago, whether or not we should be building something on the blockchain. A couple years after that, should we be involved with Web 3? Should we have NFTs and 2023? AI is the big thing. [00:49:33] Steve Stoute: Can I talk to you about that? [00:49:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, [00:49:35] Steve Stoute: But go ahead, ask the question. I'll get into it. [00:49:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, so I was gonna ask twofold how you look at it for yourself with the businesses and then also the value add and advice you give to artists that are considering this. [00:49:46] Steve Stoute: Yeah, So let's, I take a step back for a second. Whether 20 years ago as technology, you know, sort of more consumer facing technology 30 years ago has been, is taking shape into, is taking shape. The popularity of code or the popularity of, you know, technology outside of just the internet itself. It wasn't immediate frenzy around it. It didn't, like, it was just happening. It wasn't like front and set of the media. And I think part of it is like there weren't that many day traders like Uber drivers are traders and school teachers trade everybody's trading stocks. So now that you've built applications that allow people to day trade and everybody could be a stock analyst themselves, the technology has gotten a lot of media attention and a lot of that media attention I do believe has escalated the fact that it becomes top of mind. But yet the application of that technology may be premature. Agreed. So every with the metaverse, oh my God, everybody are you doing in the Metaverse? We're in the Metaverse. We're in the Metaverse. You in the Metaverse. What is the Metaverse? Is Fortnite the Metaverse? That's not the Metaverse, the Oculus is the Metaverse. No, that's not the Metaverse is gaming in general. The Metaverse. Well, whatever. But before we could even get to that, NFTs come, well fuck the Metaverse. It's the NFTs. Well, the NFT, you got a NFT. You got a What's your character? What's your character? Who you got a character? What's your character? What's your vetas? don't have a character. Let me see your crypto wallet. What's in your crypto wallet? What's in your crypto wallet? What's in your crypto? Okay, now we just went to the Oh shit. Fucking AI. you use chatGPT. How we gonna, it's like, yo, bro, could we just chill out? Stop. and the media writes it and then everybody just runs around. Thinking that they need to be prolific and like force themselves to find the application. cuz they don't wanna be left out like, let these things find, use cases that stick and therefore the products and the applications that come out of it will then take hold. But like for you to just run to crypto wallets and metaverses and ai and the, it's like, it is so overblown. And what I was telling my team about is what happens is like take crypto, like the media is incentivized to write it all the way up, right? write it all way. You gotta get this, you gotta get this, you gotta get this. They write it all the way up and then as soon as the shit melts, they fucking write it all the way down. So they still win because they fucking made everybody feel like it was important. And then, They start shitting on it and everybody has to read that because they wanna know why they're shitting on it. And then while they're shitting on it, they fix the next thing. Metaverse da da da it's like, it's funny to me cuz I could it's obvious actually. It's funny because it's obvious, but yet people sort of work themselves up, like, you know, I deal with CMOs all the time. They're like, you know, what are we gonna do in the metaverse 18 months ago? They don't even fucking bring it up anymore. Right? Why were you bringing it up 18 months ago? Cause you read it in the New York Times because it was on some news channel and you don't even bring it up anymore. [00:53:08] Dan Runcie: The dialogue around this heightened into the fomo. Everyone has the fear of missing out on all this. [00:53:14] Steve Stoute: Not me. I think I don't have any FOMO on shit that's not real. And I'm not saying it's not real, I'm saying until it has practical applications that affect my life or my business really. [00:53:29] Dan Runcie: How do you determine what that is? [00:53:32] Steve Stoute: I don't know, Talent? testing, I don't know, like that kind of thing. [00:53:39] Dan Runcie: It's interesting, right? Because I feel like we could go back to two years ago, and I remember, I think that was around the time that NFTs were having their craze and artists could've been like, oh, well, what if we could release a N F T on United Masters or something like that? Yeah. Or what if we could do this? And it's one of those things, in hindsight, of course the right answer is, yeah, that I don't think we need to do that. [00:54:01] Steve Stoute: Let's stay the you ask anybody who worked with me, I never, ever bought that that bullshit. I'm like, look, until that young kid, that 17 year old kid, 16 year old kid in Atlanta, Fort Lauderdale, los Angeles, is me that they're willing or want to buy an album as an NFT. I am not gonna allow Discord chatter to say that's where my business is doing. [00:54:30] Dan Runcie: I think that's a good example here, because so much of the chatter around this stuff is hyped up by people that are in it. People that were buying NFTs or music related NFTs or things like that were people that were talking about this on the regular, on Discord and Twitter, but it's not the 14 year old [00:54:48] Steve Stoute: guy, you know? and he's my man. But, he owns, Royal. [00:54:51] Dan Runcie: Oh, BLA? [00:54:52] Steve Stoute: BLA, you know, right? You know he put out an album, right. right. You know? Mm-hmm. Oh [00:54:55] Dan Runcie: yeah, I remember that [00:54:56] Steve Stoute: Remember 11 Million in that, right? DJ [00:54:59] Dan Runcie: and then Naz had done something on Royal a couple months later. [00:55:02] Steve Stoute: Right. But you so very smart, very, very smart. Made $11 million on an album. Everybody was like, that's the example. NFTs the whole thing. When you ask people, like regular fans who are fans of DJs that listen to EDM music and you say, you know that album blah da da da, they don't even know what you're talking about. That album that did that was purchased primarily by people that was in that business, the Discord community. It wasn't the general music community that bought it or even was aware of it. It was the people in that community. That's fine, that's fine. That's good for him. It's good for that community. Perfect. But to try to say that that applies to every, the industry at large now, and now the 16 year old kid in Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, whatever, is gonna now want that. That's not the right idea. And you know, it didn't require testing and learning for that. You could just do the work on it, do the math on it. Now there's aspects of the NFT, the blockchain technology, I think is very important, for payments. Yeah. So, I see that application, everything has an application. It's like AI is gonna, is fantastic. NFTs and crypto, and all of its fan the metaverse Fantastic. I just think this accelerated frenzy and FOMO sometimes get you to lose focus on what about it is really important to your business. And what I learned in the frenzy of the NFT marketplace or Web 3 was. The value of blockchain to payments. Payments in the music industry are very difficult because you have many people contributing to a song and, the rights holders need to have something that bound them right on these digital forever. Right. Until they decide to change it. And the blockchain does really good with those agreements in being able to put, you know, 17 people writing one song, whether it be a sample or just original writers, whatever it may be, and allow them to have these digital contracts that make sure everybody gets paid fairly precisely automatically. That part of it I like, I mean, for my, business, I like all of it. Mm-hmm. But specifically, for our business, [00:57:23] Dan Runcie: Does anything about AI spark interest or application in the same way? [00:57:28] Steve Stoute: Well, with AI, I'm trying to figure out, I'd really like it for education. So, you know, if I'm giving you tools, look at Uber, right? And They tell a driver, you know, peak times 4:00 PM this area, the town, the driver know where to go. The driver could be of any education level, but the tools that are provided to that driver, apply to, you know, whether you speak perfect English, you know, your learning English, your education level varies. The simplicity of what they provide you to be a small business is absolutely brilliant. You should look at the backend of Uber. You should see what an Uber driver sees. it'll amaze you. For our artists, I look at them like that. So, where I think AI can be really good is an understanding like when you post during this time, this is when the best time you get results. This is the type of content that works best for you. the, you know, release of songs when you should release them. The timing of it. I think utilizing AI to provide education around building your business can be very helpful for us, because of the fact that it can pull all that information and then provide a very easy way of understanding the best way to move forward based off the intelligence that it gleams. [00:58:47] Dan Runcie: There's so many applications of it, I think both internally for companies like you mentioned, but also how you deal with your stakeholders, how they then deal with their fan bases. It'll also be interesting to see just the bigger picture, what that next big thing is, how people are gonna react to it. A lot of it is accelerated by, How people live in bubbles themselves in a lot of ways. If you're only spending your time on Twitter, on Discord, you're just seeing the frenzy. You think everyone is there with you. Yeah. I remember a year ago I was at a dinner and this was right at the height of web 3. It was a lot of industry professional folks in there, and I remember being the person saying, you're all saying that we're gonna be on web 6 a year from now. There's people, the average person really isn't tapped into this. I don't think we're moving that fast. And a lot of 'em looked at me like I was crazy then. Yeah. And I'm like, it's my job to follow this stuff. I'm not a Luddite here telling you this. This is just the reality. So, [00:59:42] Steve Stoute: Well people, a lot of times people fight, try to solve problems that don't exist. Yeah. Right. Like it's like, you are saying web 6 and all that, we haven't even gotten to, you know, look, we still don't even know what the fuck 5G does yet, right? It's like, let's be really analog about this topic, yeah, we're fixing that, with AT & T but just in general, the regular con general consumer, you ask 'em about 5g, they see it on their thing. They're like, my text didn't go through any faster and my videos are still, you know, it's, Yeah. It's still like cycling. So I thought I had 5g. So sometimes things create more media momentum than the practical consumer experiences and a lot of times, spend a lot of time trying to solve problems that actually don't exist. [01:00:35] Dan Runcie: Agreed on that. Agreed on that. Well, Steve, before we close things out, the first interview we did, we talked about where United Masters was, where the future was, and I believe you told me, [01:00:45] Steve Stoute: but I did pretty good when I look, I haven't seen the interview, since, but I don't know if I did pretty good in my prediction. Do you remember? [01:00:52] Dan Runcie: You said we are in the first inning of this cause I think I asked you, what does the future look like with exits and future? You said we're in the first inning, we're early in this perspective. What inning do you feel like we're at now and what do you see for the future of the business. [01:01:07] Steve Stoute: I believe that we're still in the the first third of the innings. I think we're in inning to bottom of the second, you know, top of the third kind of thing. and the reason why is because now money is back into music. When I first sat with you, There was no vC money in music businesses anymore. They'd fucking ran. They lost all that money with all those other, you know, versions of this idea for reasons that make perfect sense, that the money had up, the money was going to social media and, you know, FinTech and a bunch of the other things like why me? Why music. And in the last five years, whether it be catalog sales or, independent music now being discovered by financial systems, Goldman Sachs and the others investors more, mainstream investors have realized that there's growth there and there's globalization of music and all of the things that bring energy back to the industry and that the record labels don't have this. Choke hold on it like they used to have. And it's not as difficult and to understand, which was another thing that people didn't understand about the music was They made it so difficult. People thought it was like a business that was so hard to figure out and all that other kind of stuff. Cuz over the rights. But because it's now become clear where I used to have to explain it to every single person. They're like, so you're competing with Spotify, like, no, you'd have to explain. it. They understand it now, which is cool. So now money's in, which means more entrepreneurs are gonna come in and build services like ours and other alternative services tools. The fastest growing segment of the music business is independent music. The fastest growing aspect of the music business is global music. Global music, the record companies never dominated because English speaking music was the only thing that really mattered. I mean, you just about it, Bad Bunny headline Coachella, right? How many people don't even know what the fuck he's saying? I mean, if there's 80,000 people there with maybe 65,000, don't know what the fuck he's saying. Yet they're dancing, all this great music coming outta Africa. Mm-hmm. That people are just going crazy over. That never happened. At the rate this has happened. Now, all of that independence rising globalization and music rising and money coming in. Is now you're about to see the acceleration of what can happen as a result of the momentum. It was always headwinds. And now I would say in the last year, it's been tailwinds. It's an exciting time. It's a very exciting time. it's an extremely exciting time. it's no longer in the dark. It's no longer something that, you know, big business. it wasn't paying attention to. Everybody sees it now. and when everybody sees opportunity and money and. Value creation and the fact that you can disrupt this, you know, a hundred billion dollar business of the music business, it can be disrupted because the barriers of entry has completely been removed like every other industry where the barriers of entry has removed, money goes into it, entrepreneurs come into it and new value is created. and I think that's being recognized as we speak here today. So we're in the bottom of the second, top of the third. [01:04:47] Dan Runcie: Nice. Alright, bro, appreciate that. [01:04:49] Steve Stoute: Always, as always, This is good man. All right. Trapital. Let's rock and roll. [01:04:53] Dan Runcie: Yes sir. man. Cool. [01:04:55] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. UnitedMasters and Translation CEO Steve Stoute returns to the show, fresh off a new deal with R&B star Brent Faiyaz for a reported $50 million. Brent had his pick at multiple major labels, but chose to stay independent with UnitedMasters.


We talk about how independent companies can compete with majors on upfront money, competitive advantages in the music industry, and more.


Steve and I also chat about the industry at-large: AI, entrepreneurship, subscription prices and more. Here’s what we hit on:


2:19 The ups and downs of entrepreneurship 

06:11 Building two companies at once

10:56 Positioning UnitedMasters in the music distribution space 

13:16 Does anyone in music have a moat?

15:56 Why Brent Faiyaz chose to sign with UnitedMasters

27:33 Should the DSPs raise prices?

30:07 Artists and creators becoming mini-media channels 

36:58 How NIL (name, image, likeness) is like the independent music business

37:19 Is Steve going to strike more NIL deals?

45:52 Why every artists needs a Chief Technology Officer

54:30 Separating real from hype: blockchain, to web3, to AI



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Steve Stoute, @SteveStoute


This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm


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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Steve Stoute: They used to have a moat, but no longer do they have a moat. And I don't think anybody independent music has a moat. I think Distro kid has a lane and TuneCore has a lane, and United masses have a lane. And, you know, others have, certain strengths about them. but, I think the only moat you have is the moat that is a true result of the success that you have. If people choose you and you build a strong business, and you're growing, that's the quote unquote moat.

[00:00:27] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:55] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode covered a wide range of topics, but the key thing that's central to it is artist independence, and we're able to sit down with none other than Steve Stoute, who is the founder and CEO of United Masters founder and c e o of translation, and has been working in music and entertainment.

For decades now. This is actually his third time on the podcast, and we covered it all. We started the conversation talking about motivations and how you were able to stay consistent as an entrepreneur, given the ups and downs of that lifestyle. Then we talked about translation, United Masters, Artist Independence, a bunch of trends happening right now and how.

A company stays through all of the waves of technology waves, whether it's blockchain from a couple years ago to web three to where things are with AI now. Really fun conversation. Steve always brings it in these talks too, so it's a really great listen, hope you enjoy it. Here's our conversation.

[00:01:53] Dan Runcie:

All right. We're back with the Trapital podcast. Yeah. We got the one and only Steve Stoute here. I think this is your third time on the pod.

[00:02:00] Steve Stoute: Really? I thought. I guess I thought it was twice. Thought This was my second time.

[00:02:04] Dan Runcie: We did one time. We was at Empire Studio there. Yeah. We did it virtual during the pandemic, and then we got this one.

[00:02:11] Steve Stoute: Oh, well, I'm fan of it. very early. You were? Yeah, I was on it very, very early. I think you're a good job.

[00:02:18] Dan Runcie: Appreciate that.

[00:02:18] Steve Stoute: Thanks for having me back.

[00:02:19] Dan Runcie: Thank you. Yeah. These conversations are always good. And I wanna start this one and a place we haven't started others. I feel like we normally dive into the business, but take it a step back.

You've been building businesses as an entrepreneur for decades now. How do you stay even keeled? How do you stay consistent with it, just knowing the ups and downs that naturally happen with building businesses?

[00:02:42] Steve Stoute: Well, the fact that I appear to be even keeled is a compliment because, I certainly am emotionally attached to the businesses I build.

I know there's, you know, the saying, don't be emotional about business, but when I'm building something from an original idea that I have, it's, you birthed the idea. I'm emotionally attached to the success of it, and the organization around it and the perception of it. So, you've been through those tumultuous cycles, so you tend to not chase the highs or chase the lows.

and that sounds good. but it is definitely harder to do that when you're emotionally attached than, you know, understanding the theory that you should do that. And I think experience helps a bit, takes the edge off. But yeah, I would say to you, you just, like, for me, I've been able to sustain the energy and

sustain through the ups and downs, through, sort of expecting them and not, chasing the highs like that's where the big mistake is when something great happens or a series of great things happen, you know, respecting it, but not chasing it because I believe that that's still not, gonna prevent the tumultuous time from coming. Because

[00:03:56] Dan Runcie: I think the tough part with that, and this is something I know I struggle with too, it's tying your own satisfaction, your own esteem at particular points with those highs when things are going well. Yeah. And it's great to say those things, but I know even myself, it's tough to be able to stay even keeled when things are going well. The phone starts ringing more, you start getting more opportunities, more looks for things. Yeah, yeah,

[00:04:20] Steve Stoute: Yeah. And it becomes more hectic. And then you have to hire more people. And then that creates another set of problems and responsibilities. And look, building a business isn't easy. I said it, the shop, know that the biggest mistake that I see is the glorification of entrepreneurs like, almond entrepreneurs. So therefore, like, you know, the sacrifice that it requires, to be able to know that failure is imminent or success is imminent that you may have an idea and you can go years without realizing the opportunity and it may go to somebody else. people ask me, how do I do it? And, you know, I'm here in San Francisco, I was, You know, in LA the day before that I was in Miami, the day before that, the day before that I was in LA again, it's like, it just keeps going. And like, you know, not seeing your family an d sacrificing some of the comforts of home or the comforts that you have of a routine, it's also part of the sacrifice. So it's not easy, and you have to really be committed to it. It almost has to be your A plan, your B plan. Your C plan is that plan, like you won't find joy or fulfillment. in doing anything else. At least that's how I feel.

[00:05:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think a lot of it's accepting those trade-offs and knowing that you can't do it all. I think I've heard you talk about this on the shop as well, whether it's so-and-so as the birthday party, so-and-so as the this, and yeah, it's great if you can line up and do those things, but you've chosen this life to be able to be in LA, be in Miami, be in New York, and back to back days and Yeah, doing that requires this type of commitment to it and you can't do everything.

[00:06:04] Steve Stoute: Yeah. and hiring great people, is part of it. but putting your own personal comfort is certainly not a priority.

[00:06:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. Interesting you brought up the hiring piece because I think you've definitely built up a reputation as someone that's always operating on 10. So you naturally wanna surround yourself with people that are at that level. What are some of the things that you look for to see, okay, does this person have the edge? Cuz you know you're gonna be running all the time. Can they run with you?

[00:06:36] Steve Stoute: it's very hard to, you know, resumes or LinkedIn pages, whatever you use can tell you a lot, but they don't measure resourcefulness or effort, right? So those things do not appear in any aspect of looking at, a person's profile. So I've learned through failure, you know, I may have not, I may have, I have high, I have hired and fired. you know, 3000 plus people, you know, so you learn what are the qualities or what are the questions to ask, to try to help, mitigate that the kind of person you need for your company. It doesn't mean that person's bad. You could have made a bad hire, not because the person's not good, they just don't fit your team. I mean, you see it in the NBA all the time. Players on somebody that was on the Lakers or somewhere else goes to another team and then all of a sudden they do well cuz it's the system, it's the culture, it's the coach. And that's the same thing with employment. Like, you just may be good just not for this company. So understanding what you specifically need versus, oh, this person worked at, so tech high, or they worked at Google, they worked at Airbnb, we want that right? Pulling them into a startup or pulling them into that culture or pulling them into that product not made completely, is completely different, specifically in our case, than what they were doing over there. And not every single job transfers one to one, whether it's the music business, the tech industry, the marketing business. We hire people at translation all the time. They came from Ogilvy. It's like, well, that has nothing to do with us, right? Or they come from Goodbee and you're like, well, that ain't gonna work here, right? Why? Just because the way we are, set up, what they may be used to, the programming that they run versus what we run, they, you know, may not be a great culture fit. And so, knowing that helps mitigate that risk. So knowing who you are, knowing what kind of people respond well to your culture is an important aspect. Not only just the mission statement stuff. Yeah, great, But like really innately knowing it and feeling what works.

What are the common attributes of the people that are successful at your company that are more nuanced based and knowing how to identify that in others and what other companies share those values so that people that come from those companies tend to do well at your company.

[00:09:05] Dan Runcie: You mentioned how this is a tension point in music in this industry. I think we've seen it from time and time, whether it's the record label side and folks on the creative versus streaming and tech coming in and some of the pushback there. I think you've been able to have a good vantage point with both of these because you have a ad agency and you also have a music distribution service.

The talents, the skills needed for one, may not make sense for the other, but they also have a bit of a unique identity there. How is it with that perspective?

[00:09:38] Steve Stoute: Difficult, hard. at the onset of starting United Masses, I put translation in united masses under. United Masters, Inc. And understanding that in order to do that, to build a marketplace that has creative or brands on one side and creative and culture and cultural impact and creators on the other side, and building that marketplace takes hiring unique people because we sit at the convergence of culture, technology, and, storytelling. Mm-hmm. So you need people who are prolific at least two of those three things, every single person. And that's the only way you have a shot of getting that convergence to work as one and hiring for that and building organization structures around that probably is the most important thing. That I do every day is understanding where could we be more efficient in that model? What kind of people do we need in order to accelerate that model? How do we scale that model as a result of the talent we have and the talent we need? That is very difficult, and it is probably, it's definitely a top five priority, from the CEO.

[00:10:56] Dan Runcie: And I assume as well, part of this is required with the nature of how you've positioned United Masters, right?

If you don't have these differentiating factors, if you don't have this tie in to culture or trying to present sync opportunities or things like that, then it could easily be seen as another music distribution service. And that's not what Well,

[00:11:17] Steve Stoute: Dan, you've been following the company very closely before you could be, just another distribution company before that became popular, I had this idea with that differentiating factor seven years ago, right?

So I knew from the onset that distribution was table stakes. and the building of United Masters with translation and power powering the brand sync opportunities, the influence and type of opportunities, was something that I had the early vision on. So yeah, it's important, but it's not important in response to, oh, all of these, you know, distributors in the market now, so you need to X, Y, Z. I was doing the X, Y, Z before they even had the idea to be in music distribution, to be honest with you. And a lot of these music distribution companies that you see are coming out, are looking at United masses and honestly copying it. Some of it they can't copy. That's fine. some of it they can't copy. It's 20 years of experience in, you know, running record companies and building an advertising business to be able to do this. So you think you can replicate the outcome without replicating the process, which I've never seen actually happen, the theory is right? But to replicate it, to hire the people, to have the credibility in the marketplace to speak to brands and hire the type of people needed to pull us off. Good luck, I do believe, and I am supportive just to add to all of that, great distribution companies that support independent music, that have something to contribute to the independent music movement are welcome and everybody, you know, rises as a result of it. So I'm not necessarily, I don't look at. at these other, distributors as competitors, I look at us as contributing to an industry that's, changing the music business dramatically and if you have something to bring to the table, it's beneficial to all.

[00:13:17] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I think for United Masters as well, you've been able to have your moat essentially as you've described it. You have the years of experience, you have the ability to connect dots in ways that others don't, and that's led you to land some of the artists you have.

You have a recent deal that's been announced with Brent Faz and a long-term partnership there. Can you talk a bit about that deal and how things came together?

[00:13:43] Steve Stoute: Well, a moat is a bit of a stretch. I don't know if we have a moat. We have a great business model that certain artists, labels can find use of.

[00:13:56] Dan Runcie: Do you think anyone has a moat in this space?

[00:13:59] Steve Stoute: No. No. The record companies, the traditional record companies had a moat, when physical distribution was a barrier of entry, right? It's very hard to press up 500,000 CDs or vinyls or whatever it is. and distribute it to 7,000 points of distribution. That's not easy to do for a small, a single individual or a very small business. So that was their mode. They also had a monopoly on radio and, MTV, you know, MTV doesn't matter at all and, for music per se. And, radio matters much less than it used to. for discovery, right? So they used to have a moat but no longer do they have a moat And I don't think anybody independent music has a moat. I think Distro kid has a lane and TuneCore has a lane, and United masses have a lane. And, you know, others have, certain strengths about them. but, I think the only moat you have is the moat that is a true result of the success that you have. If people choose you and you build a strong business, and you're growing, that's the quote unquote moat. but other than that, I don't think anyone has, a clear defining advantage that no one else can replicate, right? A nd just because we have the brand stuff doesn't mean that that's the, you know, I wanna believe that's very important to the artists. But somebody else may have another thing that is if marketed well and that's what they think their advantages. I don't have the ultimate advantage cuz you know, brands and brand partnerships in sync may not necessarily be what you find most valuable. It could be a distribution company that creates and manufacturer's merch and you're like, oh shit, that's the one I want. Mm-hmm. Right. So I don't, wanna say that specifically. We have that.

[00:15:56] Dan Runcie: That's fair. I do think that that mentality is part of the differentiating that I think is lost in music overall to some extent, because I think that you have few record labels that truly have unique brands. I think you have few music streaming services that have unique brands, and when you have something, it's clearer to be able to say, who is this for? Who is this not for, right? And clearly, I assume you were able to do some of that with Brent Faz and that partnership. He saw something with how you all do business and said, okay, this is for me.

[00:16:32] Steve Stoute: Yeah, Well, Brent is a very, very unique talent. I obviously he wants to be with something that. A company, distributor, or partner that represents values that are there to him. So creativity is extremely important to him. The fact that we do have translation really matters in that instance cuz brand partnerships is something that he holds near and dear to him. He also was very respectful of, my, you know, reputation and what I've accomplished and chose that over others who, you know, was offering more money but didn't have the, same values that he had or shared values he didn't share their values. He was very particular about that everyone who knows him knows that, he's high taste. So he wanted to be with, you know, a brand, a distributor, a partner that was, had a sense of premiumness to it. That was important to him. So I think the combination of those three things and, you know, just our chemistry, his manager Ty, is also a fantastic, really intelligent, guy who I've developed a great relationship and a lot of respect for, also played a very significant role in this partnership. And we're gonna do great things together. I knew this day would come, I knew where so much respect for guys, like maybe maybe for Toby, right? Toby Nii, who, I keep screwing up his name and he keeps making fun of me screwing up. His name is actually part of his name now. When I say it. But, I have so much respect for him and fat because we've done so well together and, they've committed to us and we've committed to them. And it was a proof point that an independent artist can be successful, can be, you know, a global brand. And I directly tie the work that we've done with Toby and, and others. And others. He just comes to mind. I spent a lot of time with him for why Brett chose us. Brett chose us. and now you got Brett who sold out his tour in three days around the world and shit. That kind of star deciding to stay independent, not go with a major label. And they offered him everything, all the money in the world. And I knew that trend is gonna happen. That's gonna happen, man. You're gonna start seeing this happen all the time, like, you know, the one moat, again, back to the legacy labels that they have, is that because they own your masters, when your contract is up, what they do, their, their thing is start to give you back the shit they took from you, right? So now you leave, you finish your 8, 5, 7 album commitment, whatever it is, right? And it's no longer can they give you any more money to stay. So they go, we'll give you back album one. And you're like, I'll stay on Sony because now Album one reverts I'll stay on Universal cause album one reverts. So they stay stuck in the system because all they do is now give you back what you shouldn't have never given actually, or they never should have taken. So they hold you cuz you're tethered to that, right? And no matter what, an independent distributor can't give you your first album that you wrote, because you never had in the first place. You never, you know, so you never had it in the first place, however. So that's the moat that they have with legacy acts that will stay. So it'll be hard for legacy acts to leave when they can give you back that kind of stuff. But the new artists who are building their careers are considering independent distributors such as myself or others, at the same consideration set as they're considering a label. If you can give 'em money and you can provide them services, look man, you know, people talk about like, oh, these labels have a service. We picked up our systems. We distributed a song, from a great, great young artist, good man, superstar Pride outta Mississippi has a song called painting Pictures. The song was released in October. The The song moves like this, my building, just, I don't know, 3000 streams a day or something like that. and then all of a sudden, on February 6th, it goes from 3000 to 9,000 or something like that. Our systems catch it, right? We're looking for the second derivative.

We're measuring acceleration. Boom. We find it, Two or three days later, other labels. It goes from 9,000 to 27,000, and then five days later it's compounded to fucking 400,000 streams, something in a day. It's crazy. But we already have identified it. all the labels are offering the money, three and a half million, 4 million, this, that, and the third.

He chose to stay with United Masters. Everybody said, well, they can't get you this. They can't do that. Songs gonna be number one at radio. It's not like they have an advantage anymore, you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's not even like a problem. It's Mm-hmm. nothmm. if it was like a heavy lift, the artist made a great song. We gotta work it at radio. There's a formula to that money is part of that formula, right? And we can do it. it. Somebody can't do it better than us. Universal can't do it better than us. They don't like for artists to think that, right? They would like the perception of that to be true, but it's not the real marketing is coming out of, you know, the artists themselves and your relationships with Apple and Spotify and other distributors and YouTube, and we have the same relationships they have. So the new artists know that. They don't see, the only thing the record company can really give them that they believe they can get, that they can't get an independent is money. And I hope the Brett Fires deal just shows that we have money too. It's like,

[00:22:18] Dan Runcie: How big is that money difference? Because I think that's the one thing that people do.

[00:22:21] Steve Stoute: It's getting smaller and smaller as the record companies are losing. They're letting people go. their margins are getting smaller and smaller. They're firing a lot of people. don't know if no one talks about this. this, but they're not running around writing those big ass checks like they used to anymore. They Hell no. no. No, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:22:41] Dan Runcie: Because I think people will look at a deal like the one that Drake did last year. Yeah. For instance. And they're, say the Ruter mal is somewhere 300, 400

[00:22:50] Steve Stoute: It was more than that. Much more than that. But that's different. They have Drake's, remember what I told you, they got Drake's masters, right? That's different than an artist starting from Drake releasing the first. song with Trey songs. All right, whatever. When he started his career, like if Drake released a song today that Drake considers an independent music company, at the same rate that he, looks at a major label cuz the major label can't say anything to him today that will make him believe outside of money that they have an advantage.

[00:23:25] Dan Runcie: This topic too, reminds me of something similar because we're talking about the record labels and the streaming service as well, who's bringing in money, and there's all this debate right now around pricing for these services. The record labels want those prices higher. The streaming for songs? Oh no, for the monthly subscription that customers pay.

[00:23:45] Steve Stoute: Oh, oh, okay.

[00:23:46] Dan Runcie: Yeah, yeah. So they want the hire, the streaming services, well, a few of them still want to keep them as low as possible, but we're seeing things trending in that direction. You owning a music distribution service, relying on that streaming revenue as well, where do you take, what's your take right now on pricing on the consumer side and Yeah,

[00:24:08] Steve Stoute: A few things there. Number one, the record companies had the opportunity when they held all of the leverage. To control pricing, to control pricing for the customer, as well as the price per stream. All these things were set up at a time when the record companies, you know, got big advances from Apple, you know, got ownership in Spotify, so they were cool with whatever was going on. As they're starting to lose market share now they need to go find growth, and the only way to find growth is go to the streaming services and say, charge more money so we can make more money. But the problem is that if the artist got the lion share the money, rather than the label getting the lion share the money, the current pricing model will work really well. The artists, if they were independent and they were receiving 80% of the money that came from streaming, and it went to each individual artist, they'd be fine with it. They'd be making a lot more money than they're making right now. The independent artists are making a fortune of money. Go ask russ. Go ask Toby. Go ask Brent what he's done for so many years. Why he stays independent, because they've really received the lion share the money. The record companies have bloated overhead, whether it be office space, employees and salaries of their CEOs and shit like that, and whether they're public or or not. In the case of universal, it's public. They need to show growth, and they're losing margin on how much money they're making per album or release, And the only way to find growth, real growth is the diversify of their business, which they haven't been so good at. There's not that many entrepreneurs insider, a record companies. Jimmy Iovine was one. Dr., Jay-Z was another, but there's not that many. You don't see that many. I'm not making this up. So you're talking about CEOs who were fat and happy, now all of a sudden have to innovate and they don't have a person that can make beats by Drake. They don't have a person who's gonna create the next thing.

So now they gotta go to apple and Spotify and squeeze more. The problem is their leverage with Apple and Spotify have sort of, gone in the other direction. They don't have as much leverage as they had seven years ago, eight years ago, 10 years ago. ago. So that's the landscape. I the artists should get paid more money. That's we built our model to do, make sure the artists get paid more money and have great partnerships with, the platforms. And that's how I see it right now. yeah. So to answer your question on pricing, whether or not Spotify or Apple should charge more, I mean yeah. If they're gonna continue to grow so that you don't wanna price it so that people start canceling subscriptions, right? You gotta price it right so that it keeps growing. Cuz the more they grow, the more the pot of money grows. But before I get to even worrying about what they're charging, I need to worry about the artists are getting the lion share of revenue, and that's what we, stand for United Masses, and that's what we've been able to accomplish today.

Okay.

[00:27:33] Dan Runcie: And at least for the artists that are part of United Masters, they don't have the rights holder relationships that the signed artists do on the record label. So that side doesn't necessarily affect them as much. I think you definitely addressed that piece of it. I think the other side of it is looking at streaming prices on all the video services and how Netflix and all these other services have definitely expanded beyond their 9 99 price point.

And then for you all as a business, knowing that a company like Spotify, which does have lower churn than a lot of those other companies as well, if prices were to increase 10%, that's 10% more revenue, at least for the streaming revenue side of the business. For a company like United Masters given the cut you have

[00:28:16] Steve Stoute: Again, yes. and at some point you can raise the price to the point where somebody says, you know what? I'd rather not do that. I'd rather have an not that service. I'd rather listen to it free on YouTube, or I'd rather deal with ads. It costs too much. I don't know what that price is, but there's absolutely a point of diminishing return and setting any price. You gotta just know what that price is. So rather than me sit here and go, yeah, they should raise prices, which I could easily say, cuz it's beneficial to me. I want them to raise prices and continue to grow. Cuz as that pot grows, there's more money to be distributed. If they price it wrong, it hurts us. That's my only point.

[00:28:59] Dan Runcie: That's fair. I get that. This topic as well, reminds me of another thing that I wanted to chat with you about.

[00:29:07] Steve Stoute: We're talking about, reminds you of something else. That's great. That's how you write, you write like that, you find all these, comparisons, to different business models. in fact, you know, that's why I'm a fan of what you guys do of what you do. but it's funny when you say it, actually, reminds me of

[00:29:22] Dan Runcie: That's funny. That's funny. I was actually gonna say, this isn't a random reminding, this is actually something you had said in that episode of the shop. I think it was the last one you did. You were, I think Drusky was on there. A fewer folks were on there. Yeah. You were talking about dollars that were moving from traditional tv Yeah. And going towards creators. Yeah. And how much of an opportunity that is. And I know you, with the business you have with translation, a lot of your work has been focused on doing these traditional TV partnerships, whether it's with a State Farm or some of the other clients you have.

I'm curious to hear how this type of transition impacts your work and what opportunities you see and how you may have be thinking about the future on that side.

[00:30:07] Steve Stoute: So the media buying companies, people who buy media for brands are seeing and advising that television ratings outside of sports are going in the wronging direction and advising to put that money more into digital channels that are primarily driven by creators. The creators have deep connections with their fans. The creators can create a network effect. So you can hire, you know, 50 creators who who have deep impact in different regions, communities, and you can buy against it. and sort of create marketplace momentum around a movement, a brand, a product, whatever it may be. My question toski is, this thing is shifting in your direction or what are you doing to prepare for it? I said something so long ago on, on my man Swae. I said that that artists are going to become mini media channels. I said this six years ago, mini media channels. If you look at the artists and you look at them like what cable channels were, you watch ESPN, they have an audience, you watch Turner, they have an audience, you watch Discovery, they have an audience. The artists, the influencers are gonna be exactly like those with obviously much smaller audiences, but the relationship between the artists and the audience or the influence in the audience is where the media money is going. ESP N, Turner and Discovery are prepared for that. that. Their organizations are set up for it. They stay on brand so that when the money comes their way, the brand knows, whoever's spending money against it knows exactly what they're getting and the kind of audience that they have. What What are the creators doing to be prepared for that movement of revenue coming to them? How are they set up for that? Because in the beginning it starts to look like, oh shit, this is all found money. But I'm saying, this is not just found money. This is the new industry.

[00:32:23] Dan Runcie: Is there anyone that you see that's doing a good job of this right now? Or any creators that are ready for this moment

[00:32:29] Steve Stoute: there's so There's so many of them. A lot of YouTube creators are doing it. You know, mr. Beast disguise, I mean, you know, the names. They all, you know, have created, you know, products that create lines around the block. I mean, you know, you don't look at it this way anymore because, she's transcended what you first seen her as. But Kim Kardashian is that she's the ultimate influencer. She's the influencer's influencer, right? Right. And she's built billions of dollars of business as a result of using her culture, her influence. that started with Instagram and social media. So like yeah, we've seen a lot of people do it, right? The musicians are now starting to do it right, because they're starting to realize Rihanna and Fenty. And others are copying or copying or seeing that, look, the streaming business is great and touring is great, but my impact, my movement, because of my digital footprint can allow me the opportunity to sell other higher margin items, like beauty products like lingerie, like footwear. So understanding your influence, whether you're a musician or personality and who your audience is creating opportunities for a lot of money to be made.

[00:33:50] Dan Runcie: And how does that shape the type of work that translation will continue to do in the future working with creators?

[00:33:58] Steve Stoute: Well, our number one responsibility at translation is to be lockstep with culture and lockstep in real lockstep. So as we help provide solutions for brands, creative, strategic solutions, We understand that what I just said about where this business is going and the influences and their impact that they have, we're very fluent at that. So it doesn't impact us in a way that says, oh, now we have to change our business as a result of this. We just create in these new landscapes, right? Like, it doesn't impact us at all. In fact, it hinders. The more bigger traditional agencies who have not even wrapped their brain around diversity culture, they're still running an old playbook. This new thing, they hope goes away, but we've seen this over and over again, right? It's the dilemma that happens, the innovation dilemma that takes place and whether you do it yourself or you get disrupted by somebody else. if you hold on to what you've done, you'll be disrupted. When we built translation, we built it under the manifesto of translating culture for Fortune 500 companies. And translating always needs to happen. It's why I came up with the name, everything needs to be translated, right? So the fact that tr culture needs to be translated and because it's translated and it changes, you have to be clear and understanding of it. I talk about that all of a sudden, the speed of culture, the speed in which, you know, someone can become an overnight success. Like there's a tape, a footage. You should run it, in this spot and I'll send it to you. Where Lil Nas X, goes on, he eats a piece of pizza January, 2019. He's eating a piece of pizza on Instagram. And He's like, yo, this is Nas X I got 1000 plus followers on spotify. I got 3000 on Instagram, you know, a couple, you know, thousand views on YouTube, but I think Old town Road is gonna be a hit. and I'll see you guys a year from now, literally a year to the day he has on a white fucking mink eating pizza. And he is like, you know, it's little Nas x 30 million on spotify, da da, da. And that's no different than skims disrupting spanks in a year. Like that's no different than other. Everybody is ready for the, that's the speed of culture and it's fast. It'll never be this slow again. Like that's a fact. So being a brand of an agency, a creative company, a influencer or whatever you are, if you are not aware, prepared, built for that speed, you will get left.

[00:36:59] Dan Runcie: The other area that's move in just as fast, probably even faster is NIL and everything happening there with

[00:37:06] Steve Stoute: This you of NIL? You were gonna say that, that reminds me of NIL deals. Oh shit. How the fuck did he do that? That reminds me of a great piece of pizza. I just had Steve again, NIL deals. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:19] Dan Runcie: And I think we've seen a lot of fast movement there. Yes, we have. You've definitely probably see plenty of opportunities cuz I think the space is very unregulated. There's random things happening.

[00:37:32] Steve Stoute: Yeah. And yeah, you should go look at, just so that you properly, as you definitely, know my work and have been, very much appreciative of my contribution. I did a documentary at LeBron James called student athlete that came out five years ago. You should look at that. You should play clips of it. We followed four athletes over a year that were high school, that were college athletes. One of 'em got injured and fucking, like, had to sleep in his car because you know, you are a D one athlete, you get injured, you don't make it to the pros. You don't get any fucking health insurance anymore. They fucking cut you. That's the end of it. Right. So you're playing for this lottery ticket and you don't get shit. And the fact that these student athletes don't get a chance to actually get a great education because they have fucking practice every day or games on Friday or traveling to get to a game all over the place. But the school benefits from all of the advertising dollars. And all of the conference dollars was something that we put a highlight on and it was really, making it and seeing these stories. You felt like this is of modern day slavery. Mm-hmm. So NIL deals the Wild, wild west, the transfer portal as well. So you had NIL deals and the transfer portal happening at the same time. What is this doing? This reminds me of the independent music business, because now these student athletes really now are independent business people. They can change schools with less friction than they could have five years ago, 10 years ago. Forget it. you change schools, you had to sit outta here. You couldn't do this, you couldn't do that. By the time you could play, you know, you lost a step or you weren't the same, or you were too far removed from the game, whatever it may be. So the hindrance of that made you stay at the school and not go through that problem. That was the way they kept you. Well, it's certainly not fair that the football in which you have to stay three years, right? And basketball pay for 90% of all of the other scholarships That the fucking sports program had. And yet these guys don't get any money. It is not right, you know, think about players getting thrown out of bowl games because they got tattoos, free. It's crazy. So I'm all for NIL deals and I'm happy, it's the wild, wild west. And I like the fact that there's a guy or girl on campus make making $2 million a year balling in a fucking Porsche Bentley or investing his or her money, whatever they're doing, helping their family. I'm happy for the fact that they are getting a chance to monetize their impact beyond a scholarship, that is fantastic, but definitely a education that is not the same because they're practicing the amount of time they're practicing and traveling. The way they're traveling, this is the least that they can do is get paid for their services. And the NCAA got away with a lot for a very very long time. You should look at that. Look, when the student athlete, it's a bylaw, right? that actually became a thing and why it was set up that way and what it means and the implications of it. It was a way to hog, tie or build a moat so that these kids would never leave. As college sports grew and the money grew, all of a sudden it became, these assets, right? Became really lucrative. These conferences became very lucrative, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in TV deals. I'm happy for it. In fact, we represent the Big 12 and, shout out to my man, Brett, who now runs the Big 12. He came from running the Brooklyn Nets. He, I worked with him when he moved the Nets from New Jersey to Brooklyn. Then he went over to run a aspect of Roc Nation and now he runs the Big 12. He's the future of collegiate sports cuz he understands the music industry and the brand building industry. He understands the business of running sports team, the nets, the arena, the Barclays, bringing in talent to fill that arena pricing, dynamic pricing, media deals. He did it all. And now he's taken that combination of skills to Big 12 and he's once NIL deals. In fact, that's his competitive advantage because none of those guys who run all those other conferences, they're all like, shit, we gotta give these NIL deals. The students are gonna do X, Y, Z in this transfer portal. What are we gonna do? Brett's? Like, this is what I've been doing my whole career. I can't wait to set up NIL programs, bring brands in, you know, treat these students athletes like the same way we treated artists in my previous career. it's dope and, it's way, way, overdue. This reminds you of,

[00:42:46] Dan Runcie: Didn't remind me of something, but I was gonna ask you, is this an area that you would work more directly in through translation, through the agency, working with the

[00:42:54] Steve Stoute: Yeah. I mean, yes. Look, it's not like, again, we represent the Big 12, so our contribution to that, is adjacent to a lot of that kind of stuff, you know, there is an opportunity to set up a. a division that works specifically on NIL deals. I think it's much more, urgent that the CAAs do and the UTAs and the WMEs have that because their brokers of that kind of stuff. Where they have talent and they brands and they put 'em together, we do that for our clients. We don't do that as a industry trade. We don't just like connect random brands with, you know, artists unless we are, or athletes, unless we are doing much more immersive experiences and creative for those brands. But, you know, I'm happy we represent Beats. We did the, Beats deal with Bronny, then we did the commercial with Bronny and his dad with LeBron and like I love that. I love it. Not only for that story, but the fact that again, this 17 year old kid signed a deal with Beats. And we can actually market that and advertise that as, without him losing eligibility or whatever the fuck these guys were coming up with is dope.

[00:44:07] Dan Runcie: Right. Especially given that everyone was gonna make money off of his name. So I'm glad he can do it himself.

[00:44:12] Steve Stoute: Of course, like, you speak to Jalen Rose about this like when they're at Michigan man, the Fab 5 and these guys,

[00:44:18] Dan Runcie: Oh, that was bad.

[00:44:19] Steve Stoute: That's terrible man. Selling jerseys with their name on it and these guys. like, everybody's looking at investigating the, what they did and what did Webber do and what he did to try to feed his family. You can't even afford to get your family to come see you play. Mm-hmm mm-hmm. Well of course corruption's gonna be in it. You mean, I can't eat? I have a scholarship though. And my parents can't even come see me play cuz we can't afford it. You don't think that's gonna lead to corruption? What are you crazy?

[00:44:47] Dan Runcie: It's this weird juxtaposition where I think either, Webber or Rose talked about this in that documentary

[00:44:52] Steve Stoute: It's the coach by the way.Yeah. Gets paid $10 million, in most, towns or cities in America, the highest paid employee of that city, or town is the coach of the football team. Yep. Or the basketball team. They're the highest earning person in the entire city.

[00:45:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah. They save at the state level too for the Colleges

[00:45:12] Steve Stoute: Then they get deals with Nike and the coach makes the player wear Nikes or Reebok or whatever it is, the coach makes that decision. Everyone's making money except the student themselves, but they're getting a scholarship.

[00:45:27] Dan Runcie: Right, it's crazy

[00:45:28] Steve Stoute: And definitely an education with an asterisk next to it.

Isn't that fair? Are you fucking outta your mind?

[00:45:35] Dan Runcie: It's crazy. It's crazy. I'm glad this is happening and I'm glad we're seeing this shift.

[00:45:41] Steve Stoute: Yo, pull up student athlete. When you do this, I'm you the edit right now. I'm gonna send you the Lil NAS thing and the student athlete thing. Oh yeah. We'll throw it in there. Put it in. That's why we're doing video. video.

[00:45:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no. That's why we, no, this will be good. And then we have the clips and everything. Yeah. Shifting gears, last time you were on, you talked about chief technology officers and why artists need to have tech side folks on their platform. Yeah,

[00:46:06] Steve Stoute: Yeah, brother.

[00:46:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, How have you seen this develop the past couple years since?

[00:46:10] Steve Stoute: I haven't, the artists that obviously have the foundational truth is as technology is becoming much more important in content and video services, every artist needs a chief technology officer. That's the foundational truth. The practical reality is that that's not gonna be the case, which is the opportunity for platforms like ours to be extremely useful in providing tools, intelligence, information that is allows the artist, the influencer to take action in a very user-friendly way to help grow their career. So essentially, we wanna be the Chief Technology Officer as a platform for all of these artists. I believe that to be true. In fact, in building our platform, the remit to my engineers is that, that we have to anticipate what the artist's needs are. And build that for them. We're it for a community of artists. We're not building it to best interface with Apple or Spotify or YouTube. That's one part of it. 80% of it is what do you, I say all the time, man, I'm about to put my name in the system. I'm about to upload my first song. That experience. If I nail this, I'm gonna change the life for me and my mama. I'm gonna become my dreams. I'm gonna be able to quit this bullshit job and really live out what my talents are when I hit this button and upload this song. That's how they feel. to build a technology that's empathetic to that, and then as they continue to grow, make sure that they have the tools and they need information in order to do their thing. That's what I tell each and every engineer that comes into my company.

[00:48:17] Dan Runcie: That trajectory makes sense because if you're starting out, you're a dependent, you're not gonna have the resources to hire someone to pay them 1 50, 200 a year, whatever it is to be a CTO on staff. Yeah. How could you leverage the partnerships you have? Maybe if you get to a certain point, you could have someone internally.

[00:48:35] Steve Stoute: Of course. Of course, you know drake and, you know Beyonce and Pharrell and they have a version of a chief technology officer, somebody who, their interaction with technology is seamless and smooth and they understand it and they have relationships and, you know, they could speak with the tech leaders and be able to find the value and where the integration and partnerships can best take form. Up until you get to that point, we should be the platform to provide that for you at scale

[00:49:08] Dan Runcie: Artists as well. This is also valuable because there's so many new things that are always coming. Obviously I talk about them often in capital. You're evaluating themself for your own business, whether it's a couple years ago, whether or not we should be building something on the blockchain.

A couple years after that, should we be involved with Web 3? Should we have NFTs and 2023? AI is the big thing.

[00:49:33] Steve Stoute: Can I talk to you about that?

[00:49:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah,

[00:49:35] Steve Stoute: But go ahead, ask the question. I'll get into it.

[00:49:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, so I was gonna ask twofold how you look at it for yourself with the businesses and then also the value add and advice you give to artists that are considering this.

[00:49:46] Steve Stoute: Yeah, So let's, I take a step back for a second. Whether 20 years ago as technology, you know, sort of more consumer facing technology 30 years ago has been, is taking shape into, is taking shape. The popularity of code or the popularity of, you know, technology outside of just the internet itself. It wasn't immediate frenzy around it. It didn't, like, it was just happening. It wasn't like front and set of the media. And I think part of it is like there weren't that many day traders like Uber drivers are traders and school teachers trade everybody's trading stocks. So now that you've built applications that allow people to day trade and everybody could be a stock analyst themselves, the technology has gotten a lot of media attention and a lot of that media attention I do believe has escalated the fact that it becomes top of mind. But yet the application of that technology may be premature. Agreed. So every with the metaverse, oh my God, everybody are you doing in the Metaverse? We're in the Metaverse. We're in the Metaverse. You in the Metaverse. What is the Metaverse? Is Fortnite the Metaverse? That's not the Metaverse, the Oculus is the Metaverse. No, that's not the Metaverse is gaming in general. The Metaverse. Well, whatever. But before we could even get to that, NFTs come, well fuck the Metaverse. It's the NFTs. Well, the NFT, you got a NFT. You got a What's your character? What's your character? Who you got a character? What's your character? What's your vetas? don't have a character. Let me see your crypto wallet. What's in your crypto wallet? What's in your crypto wallet? What's in your crypto? Okay, now we just went to the Oh shit. Fucking AI. you use chatGPT. How we gonna, it's like, yo, bro, could we just chill out? Stop. and the media writes it and then everybody just runs around. Thinking that they need to be prolific and like force themselves to find the application. cuz they don't wanna be left out like, let these things find, use cases that stick and therefore the products and the applications that come out of it will then take hold. But like for you to just run to crypto wallets and metaverses and ai and the, it's like, it is so overblown. And what I was telling my team about is what happens is like take crypto, like the media is incentivized to write it all the way up, right? write it all way. You gotta get this, you gotta get this, you gotta get this. They write it all the way up and then as soon as the shit melts, they fucking write it all the way down. So they still win because they fucking made everybody feel like it was important. And then, They start shitting on it and everybody has to read that because they wanna know why they're shitting on it. And then while they're shitting on it, they fix the next thing. Metaverse da da da it's like, it's funny to me cuz I could it's obvious actually. It's funny because it's obvious, but yet people sort of work themselves up, like, you know, I deal with CMOs all the time. They're like, you know, what are we gonna do in the metaverse 18 months ago? They don't even fucking bring it up anymore. Right? Why were you bringing it up 18 months ago? Cause you read it in the New York Times because it was on some news channel and you don't even bring it up anymore.

[00:53:08] Dan Runcie: The dialogue around this heightened into the fomo. Everyone has the fear of missing out on all this.

[00:53:14] Steve Stoute: Not me. I think I don't have any FOMO on shit that's not real. And I'm not saying it's not real, I'm saying until it has practical applications that affect my life or my business really.

[00:53:29] Dan Runcie: How do you determine what that is?

[00:53:32] Steve Stoute: I don't know, Talent? testing, I don't know, like that kind of thing.

[00:53:39] Dan Runcie: It's interesting, right? Because I feel like we could go back to two years ago, and I remember, I think that was around the time that NFTs were having their craze and artists could've been like, oh, well, what if we could release a N F T on United Masters or something like that?

Yeah. Or what if we could do this? And it's one of those things, in hindsight, of course the right answer is, yeah, that I don't think we need to do that.

[00:54:01] Steve Stoute: Let's stay the you ask anybody who worked with me, I never, ever bought that that bullshit. I'm like, look, until that young kid, that 17 year old kid, 16 year old kid in Atlanta, Fort Lauderdale, los Angeles, is me that they're willing or want to buy an album as an NFT. I am not gonna allow Discord chatter to say that's where my business is doing.

[00:54:30] Dan Runcie: I think that's a good example here, because so much of the chatter around this stuff is hyped up by people that are in it. People that were buying NFTs or music related NFTs or things like that were people that were talking about this on the regular, on Discord and Twitter, but it's not the 14 year old

[00:54:48] Steve Stoute: guy, you know?

and he's

my man. But, he owns, Royal.

[00:54:51] Dan Runcie: Oh, BLA?

[00:54:52] Steve Stoute: BLA, you know, right? You know he put out an album, right. right. You know? Mm-hmm. Oh

[00:54:55] Dan Runcie: yeah, I remember that

[00:54:56] Steve Stoute: Remember 11 Million in that, right? DJ

[00:54:59] Dan Runcie: and then Naz had done something on Royal a couple months later.

[00:55:02] Steve Stoute: Right. But you so very smart, very, very smart. Made $11 million on an album. Everybody was like, that's the example. NFTs the whole thing. When you ask people, like regular fans who are fans of DJs that listen to EDM music and you say, you know that album blah da da da, they don't even know what you're talking about. That album that did that was purchased primarily by people that was in that business, the Discord community. It wasn't the general music community that bought it or even was aware of it. It was the people in that community. That's fine, that's fine. That's good for him. It's good for that community. Perfect. But to try to say that that applies to every, the industry at large now, and now the 16 year old kid in Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, whatever, is gonna now want that. That's not the right idea. And you know, it didn't require testing and learning for that. You could just do the work on it, do the math on it. Now there's aspects of the NFT, the blockchain technology, I think is very important, for payments. Yeah. So, I see that application, everything has an application. It's like AI is gonna, is fantastic. NFTs and crypto, and all of its fan the metaverse Fantastic. I just think this accelerated frenzy and FOMO sometimes get you to lose focus on what about it is really important to your business. And what I learned in the frenzy of the NFT marketplace or Web 3 was. The value of blockchain to payments. Payments in the music industry are very difficult because you have many people contributing to a song and, the rights holders need to have something that bound them right on these digital forever. Right. Until they decide to change it. And the blockchain does really good with those agreements in being able to put, you know, 17 people writing one song, whether it be a sample or just original writers, whatever it may be, and allow them to have these digital contracts that make sure everybody gets paid fairly precisely automatically. That part of it I like, I mean, for my, business, I like all of it. Mm-hmm. But specifically, for our business,

[00:57:23] Dan Runcie: Does anything about AI spark interest or application in the same way?

[00:57:28] Steve Stoute: Well, with AI, I'm trying to figure out, I'd really like it for education. So, you know, if I'm giving you tools, look at Uber, right? And They tell a driver, you know, peak times 4:00 PM this area, the town, the driver know where to go. The driver could be of any education level, but the tools that are provided to that driver, apply to, you know, whether you speak perfect English, you know, your learning English, your education level varies. The simplicity of what they provide you to be a small business is absolutely brilliant. You should look at the backend of Uber. You should see what an Uber driver sees. it'll amaze you. For our artists, I look at them like that. So, where I think AI can be really good is an understanding like when you post during this time, this is when the best time you get results.

This is the type of content that works best for you. the, you know, release of songs when you should release them. The timing of it. I think utilizing AI to provide education around building your business can be very helpful for us, because of the fact that it can pull all that information and then provide a very easy way of understanding the best way to move forward based off the intelligence that it gleams.

[00:58:47] Dan Runcie: There's so many applications of it, I think both internally for companies like you mentioned, but also how you deal with your stakeholders, how they then deal with their fan bases. It'll also be interesting to see just the bigger picture, what that next big thing is, how people are gonna react to it. A lot of it is accelerated by, How people live in bubbles themselves in a lot of ways.

If you're only spending your time on Twitter, on Discord, you're just seeing the frenzy. You think everyone is there with you. Yeah. I remember a year ago I was at a dinner and this was right at the height of web 3. It was a lot of industry professional folks in there, and I remember being the person saying, you're all saying that we're gonna be on web 6 a year from now.

There's people, the average person really isn't tapped into this. I don't think we're moving that fast. And a lot of 'em looked at me like I was crazy then. Yeah. And I'm like, it's my job to follow this stuff. I'm not a Luddite here telling you this. This is just the reality. So,

[00:59:42] Steve Stoute: Well people, a lot of times people fight, try to solve problems that don't exist. Yeah. Right. Like it's like, you are saying web 6 and all that, we haven't even gotten to, you know, look, we still don't even know what the fuck 5G does yet, right? It's like, let's be really analog about this topic, yeah, we're fixing that, with AT & T but just in general, the regular con general consumer, you ask 'em about 5g, they see it on their thing. They're like, my text didn't go through any faster and my videos are still, you know, it's, Yeah. It's still like cycling. So I thought I had 5g. So sometimes things create more media momentum than the practical consumer experiences and a lot of times, spend a lot of time trying to solve problems that actually don't exist.

[01:00:35] Dan Runcie: Agreed on that. Agreed on that. Well, Steve, before we close things out, the first interview we did, we talked about where United Masters was, where the future was, and I believe you told me,

[01:00:45] Steve Stoute: but I did pretty good when I look, I haven't seen the interview, since, but I don't know if I did pretty good in my prediction. Do you remember?

[01:00:52] Dan Runcie: You said we are in the first inning of this cause I think I asked you, what does the future look like with exits and future? You said we're in the first inning, we're early in this perspective. What inning do you feel like we're at now and what do you see for the future of the business.

[01:01:07] Steve Stoute: I believe that we're still in the the first third of the innings. I think we're in inning to bottom of the second, you know, top of the third kind of thing. and the reason why is because now money is back into music. When I first sat with you, There was no vC money in music businesses anymore. They'd fucking ran. They lost all that money with all those other, you know, versions of this idea for reasons that make perfect sense, that the money had up, the money was going to social media and, you know, FinTech and a bunch of the other things like why me? Why music. And in the last five years, whether it be catalog sales or, independent music now being discovered by financial systems, Goldman Sachs and the others investors more, mainstream investors have realized that there's growth there and there's globalization of music and all of the things that bring energy back to the industry and that the record labels don't have this. Choke hold on it like they used to have. And it's not as difficult and to understand, which was another thing that people didn't understand about the music was They made it so difficult. People thought it was like a business that was so hard to figure out and all that other kind of stuff. Cuz over the rights. But because it's now become clear where I used to have to explain it to every single person. They're like, so you're competing with Spotify, like, no, you'd have to explain. it. They understand it now, which is cool. So now money's in, which means more entrepreneurs are gonna come in and build services like ours and other alternative services tools. The fastest growing segment of the music business is independent music. The fastest growing aspect of the music business is global music. Global music, the record companies never dominated because English speaking music was the only thing that really mattered. I mean, you just about it, Bad Bunny headline Coachella, right? How many people don't even know what the fuck he's saying? I mean, if there's 80,000 people there with maybe 65,000, don't know what the fuck he's saying. Yet they're dancing, all this great music coming outta Africa. Mm-hmm. That people are just going crazy over. That never happened. At the rate this has happened. Now, all of that independence rising globalization and music rising and money coming in. Is now you're about to see the acceleration of what can happen as a result of the momentum. It was always headwinds. And now I would say in the last year, it's been tailwinds. It's an exciting time. It's a very exciting time. it's an extremely exciting time. it's no longer in the dark. It's no longer something that, you know, big business. it wasn't paying attention to. Everybody sees it now. and when everybody sees opportunity and money and. Value creation and the fact that you can disrupt this, you know, a hundred billion dollar business of the music business, it can be disrupted because the barriers of entry has completely been removed like every other industry where the barriers of entry has removed, money goes into it, entrepreneurs come into it and new value is created. and I think that's being recognized as we speak here today. So we're in the bottom of the second, top of the third.

[01:04:47] Dan Runcie: Nice. Alright, bro, appreciate that.

[01:04:49] Steve Stoute: Always, as always, This is good man. All right. Trapital. Let's rock and roll.

[01:04:53] Dan Runcie: Yes sir. man. Cool.

[01:04:55] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 3931 no How Brands Become Ideologies (with Marcus Collins) https://www.trapital.com/podcast It’s never been easier for brands to push their message out. But building true connections is  in today’s fragmented landscape. Dr. Marcus Collins has advice for cutting through the noise. His new book, “For The Culture”, is full of insights. Marcus has worked with Beyonce, Apple, Nike and more. He’s the Head of Strategy at Wieden+Kennedy, and a marketing professor at the Michigan Ross School of Business (Go Blue!). Marcus believes people use brands to express who they are. To win now and in the future, the most successful brands will have to double down on identity, not on value proposition. Here’s everything we covered: [3:20] How media fragmentation is affecting community-building  [5:35] Brands have to activate people, not algorithms   [8:45] Ideology creates cultural consumption [10:44] Brand ideology transcends industries [19:18] How non-visible companies can use tangibility to brand build [20:04] Effective market research goes beyond just data [23:57] Great marketing taps into the moment [30:04] Why Marcus wrote this book [31:30] How to reach Marcus Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Marcus Collins, @marctothec This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm This episode is also brought to you in collaboration with Primary Wave. James Brown would have turned 90 this month. Let’s revisit his cultural legacy and check out his greatest hits. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Marcus Collins: The hope for me personally, is to scale my impact like I believe that reasonable, my ideology, my belief, my conviction is that we're put in this world to serve God, and serve each other. That's what I believe, and the way I serve is by helping people realize the best version themselves operate the highest fidelity. So the book is a way to scale my impact. [00:00:21] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:45] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is all about culture, culture's ability to drive the decisions we make in business, in society and more. And our guest is the one and only Dr. Marcus Collins. He is an award-winning marketer. He's a professor at the Ross School of Businesses, university of Michigan, go blue. And he has done a number of impressive things in his career, working on campaigns like Apple Music, Budweiser, made in America's Festival, Bud Light Platinum, Beyonce and her digital work, especially in the Sasha Fierce era. He's also worked with Matthew Knowles, Steve Stout, and many others in the industry today, and he is the author of a new book that just came out called For the Culture. So in this episode we talked a lot about brands reaching that ideology level, which Marcus describes as that top tier that a brand could reach in terms of how it connects and identifies with people and in communities. So we talk about what that looks like. We also talk about Marcus' goals for this book, how that shapes his viewpoints and some of the challenges that brands can face. With regards to branding and reaching that ideology level, whether certain industries are more or less disposed to being able to get there and more. I give Marcus a ton of credit, him and I had met over a decade ago, back when I was in business school at Michigan as well, and seeing his career path and a lot of the decisions that he was able to make a transition into doing something he truly loves and is one of the best people in the world at what he does, gave me inspiration to not only see that there were plenty of other non-traditional career paths after going to business school, but I think a lot of that also informed the type of work that I now do at Trapital today and how I try to continue myself on the path that makes most sense for me. So really great conversation, always great to have him on a second time on the podcast. So here's my conversation with Marcus. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:41] Dan Runcie: All right. We are joined today by the one and only Dr. Marcus Collins, author of For the Culture, an award-winning marketer and a Ross alum. Go Blue. Welcome back, man. [00:02:51] Marcus Collins: That's right. Thanks man. Thanks for having me, doc. Always a pleasure to be with [00:02:55] Dan Runcie: Likewise and your book. Great job on it. Great job on the release too. You got a bunch of heavy hitters giving support for this. And one of the things that I wanna start with, you've talked about this before, the ideology hierarchy that brands go through and that journey. So for the listeners, can you first explain what that is and then an example of a brand that you think has gotten there and done A good example of that. [00:03:20] Marcus Collins: Yeah, so we think about ideology, it's about the way the brand sees the world, like the point of view that the brand has it's conviction. Some call it as purpose. It's really the driving belief that dictates where the brand goes, what it says, what it does, and with whom. it shows up in the world. And we all think about strong brands as brands that people know. Oh, I know that brand. we're strong. Where a lot of brands that we know that we don't consume from, right? Like Sears, we know that brand Blockbuster, we know that brand, but clearly people weren't showing up. So awareness isn't enough. One step up, we go, well there's, I know that brand and it has good quality, right? Oh, that's awesome. I know the brand has has good quality. It's a stronger brand. But to go one step higher is to know the brand. Strong, good quality, but it's also considered a leader in the space, right? So you've got like a Hulu and a Netflix and a Tubly. Which one is more trusted? Well, definitely ain't Tubly, right? Because they're not considered anywhere close to being a leader in the space. A step up from that is trust and confidence. I trust the brand. Not only do I know it, it has, good products. it's a leader in the category, but I also trust it. I have confidence in it. We think about, the headphones that we know to be the most trusted headphones in the market. We'll say, oh, that's Bose, right? Bose is demonstratively, a leader in the category and the most trusted headphones. Think about audio quality, sonic quality. However, Bose is bested in the market by Beats by Dre. Why is that? Because Beats by Dre operates at a higher level still. It's association and relevance that the brand, it's relevant for someone like me and the association, the imagery I have that's associated to the brand makes it seem cooler, right? Which is why Beats by Dre owned like 48% of the market when they were before AirPods came out, right when it came to the headphone market. But then it's one step higher than that. And the most strongest brands operate at this zenith, this pinnacle of brand strength. And that's ideology. They transcend the value propositions of the product. My razor sharper, my battery last longer, my car goes faster, and they operate at a place of conviction. And this is so strong for brands because people consume those brands, not just cuz of what they are and what they do, but because who these people are. And the brand becomes an extension of my identity. of Who I am, a Patagonia fleece is just as warm as a Columbia fleece, however, where in Patagonia says something about who I am, my identity, that I believe in mitigating our impact on the environment, and that's massively powerful. [00:06:01] Dan Runcie: This is relevant for musicians and artists as well, because I think they have some of those ideological brands too. I've been looking at the trends, especially with vinyl sales. More than half of the people that are buying vinyl don't have players. They're buying them to put them on display to showcase them. It is an extension of them. I want you to think that I am the type of person that listens to Drake, that listens to Tyler the creator. That's that zenith that we're talking about. it [00:06:29] Marcus Collins: It was so cool, and I fully agree with you. A few years ago, Fruit of the Loom, they do partnerships with musical acts like, Metallica, Kiss, Aerosmith, Seal's t-shirts. People got metallic on their, shirts. That's a licensing deal between fruit, the loos, and those musical acts. And a few years back, fruit looms. Were looking at their book of business to see which. brand, likeness which artists l likeness was doing better than the others. So they can re-up those licenses and they found that the Ramones was outperforming Kiss, Metallica, Aerosmith. They're like, what's going on The Ramones little small little band. Then they had like two albums out in the seventies, like, what's happening here? So they asked those fans, they said, you know, you must be a really big fan of the Ramones that you bought this t-shirt. They were like, Nah, I don't even know they're music. But the Ramones mean punk rock, and they want to be seen as punk rock, the meaning associated with the brand, that vessel of meaning that is brand. People use it as an identity mark, not because of what it is, but because of who they are. I mean, the biggest brands that we know, the biggest artists that we know, they all transcend what they do and operate at a level of why they do it. In the words of Simon Sinek, [00:07:43] Dan Runcie: This reminds me of those Iron Maiden t-shirts. You remember that era? Maybe it was like five, seven years ago when everybody was wearing Iron Maiden t-shirts. I don't know if they were really listened to the music, but I think it's that thing as well where they just wanna be seen like the type of person that would identify with that [00:07:58] Marcus Collins: Of course not. Of course not. I mean, people are wearing, Red Bull t-shirts. That was a thing, is a way of signaling something about yourself. NASA t-shirts. Exactly. Like just signaling something about yourself. And really, that's all we're trying to do to try to peacock our way through the world signal who we are in hopes that we can find people who are like ourselves and we find connection because that's what we are, we're social animals by nature. [00:08:21] Dan Runcie: And a lot of this, at least what we talked about so far, are consumer brands. This applies at the enterprise level as well. I think a company like McKinsey aligns perfectly. There is a status that you're able to send both internally within the organization and externally by hiring that firm, spending the seven figures for them to come and work on your project because of what you want to be able to say. [00:08:45] Marcus Collins: To say, McKenzie is our agency, that's who does our strategy work, McKenzie, and we know this from being in business school, that people want McKenzie on their resume. Because of what McKenzie means, what it signifies, you know, there's a sociologist named Pierre Perdue, who talks about this idea of cultural capital that our consumption, the more conspicuous it is, the more we align, value from it. There is embodied cultural capital. That is our skills, our knowledge, what we know, like, you know, if you go to the opera and, you know, the literature, you know, the Odyssey, you know the Homer, you know all that stuff. Then you have a amount of, value, of capital, of cultural capital. And the idea is that if you were an equestrian growing up, that signals that you've come from wealth and your friends who were equestrians growing up signals that they come from wealth and who fr what friends, do you have friends like those and those friends open up doors for you for jobs? VC funding and the alike, right? So that cultural capital that embodied cultural capital turns into financial capital. The same thing goes with objectified cultural capital, the things that we buy, the clothes that we wear, the cars that we drive. This a way of signaling who we are in the world in an effort to meet other people like ourselves, that open up door for financial capital. The same thing goes for institutional cultural capital where I go to school, where I work, what fraternity I joined, whether I was in Jack and Jill, like these things signal who we are in the world that open up more financial economic opportunities for ourselves. So you're right. So it's not just, B2C as we typically think about it. These are all the many ways that we signal who we are in the world, the companies we work for, the schools we went to, the institutions that we frequent. These are all consumption behavior to signal our identity. So that we might find people like ourselves that create more social and financial opportunities for ourselves. [00:10:44] Dan Runcie: Are there certain industries or sectors that hitting that ideological level is extremely difficult or it's almost impossible? I think back to my own career experience. I've had internships at cable companies and airlines, and I think that there's challenges, especially just given the nature of their businesses, how consumers interact with them. But even I think about companies in waste management and areas like that. Companies that could have strong brands and business businesses, but is there a ceiling of how high certain companies and certain industries can go because of the industry dynamics? [00:11:19] Marcus Collins: I think that if a company defines itself by what it does, then yes, there is a ceiling. But if a company defines itself by what it believes, I think the possibilities are endless. Cuz even as you name off those companies, we look at them through the lens of their industry, their category. And they are defined by their category. Oh, you have waste management services. So you are in waste management. You have an airline. So you are in the airline industry. you make microprocessors, so you're the micro processing industry. When you only define yourself by the product services or product goods you bring to the world, then that's the only opportunity you have. But when you elevate beyond that, you say, we believe this. We just so happened to provide waste management services. Imagine if we said this is arbitrarily speaking. Imagine we said that we believe that a clean environment makes for. a better life. Let's just say that. I'm just make that up, right. A clean environment makes for a better life, and that's why we have sanitation services, waste management services. Then we go, well, what else could be better if it were clean? Well, what if we cleaned up the oceans? We're no longer in the waste management business. We are in the cleaning oceans business. Or, well, what if we cleaned up the internet? Mm. What if we went through the internet and found all the smut, all the whatever, the things that aren't as savory. Maybe for kids and we're going to clean the internet up. We're gonna create products to do that. We just so happen to do waste management. We still happen to clean up oceans. We still happen to create software that cleans up the internet. But what we do that because we believe that a clean environment creates for better solutions. Again, I just riff that but the idea is that if you operate at that level, you are not defined by your category and what you do. You're defined by your conviction and why you do it, and that is just Superman powerful. And then you bring in people who see the road the way you do. [00:13:12] Dan Runcie: I think we just gave an entire industry. A market class and a playbook that they can use moving forward. [00:13:19] Marcus Collins: That's right. We should of held onto that one. [00:13:21] Dan Runcie: But you're right, because it also makes me think of insurance, and I know you worked with translation and one of their big accounts has been State Farm, and if you look at the product itself, the features of that product don't necessarily align on the surface of what you would think could be something that is something you would advertise in that way, but we look at the benefits. That's how you can think more broadly. We can get to Chris Paul versus Cliff Paul, and so many of the other memorable campaigns we've seen from State Farm. [00:13:50] Marcus Collins: What's actually quite interesting about that and you're spot on, is that I don't think there's very many industries as commoditized as the insurance industry. They all use the same actuaries. All of them use the exact same actuaries, just some of them are more conservative than others, and they're willing to charge you a premium for their product. And I suppose the way they, you know, get it, the job done at the end of the day is better than others. But according to the research, from when I was working in insurance, people only report their collisions, their calamities 25 to 35% of the time. So 65% of the time, at best, people aren't even reporting the accidents. So the brand, the company never comes in to actually make good on their promise, right? We're just really hanging on there based on what this brand is all about. And State Farm exists because they believe that people should live life more confidently every day to help people live life more confidently every day. This will happen to have 18,000 agents across the country to help people make better decisions. This will happen to have to cover your stuff and help provide financial services, but why they do it? To help people live life more confidently every day. And now you say, okay, so how might we do that? Well, What does that mean for basketball? The NBA, one of their sponsorships? Where is actual statistic for helping people in the n NBA called the assist? Let's go after that. Now you have a creative platform to be a part of this institution that we call the NBA, but also another way of demonstrating why you exist, not what you do. [00:15:26] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. Makes sense. Yeah. I mean, I think that's applicable for a number of industries here, and we're getting into insights and just how you perceive people. And one of the things that we're talking about is who are the best market researchers. You have this piece in the book, and you've talked about this before, about why comedians are actually some of the best market researchers out there. Could you talk a little bit more about that? [00:15:49] Marcus Collins: Yeah. Comedians are phenomenal because they just observe people. They observe us humans as the social actors that we are, as we navigate the phenomenal world that we live in, and they look at people and go, that's odd. You see what she did? Oh, and he did it too. And they did it. And they did it. Okay. This is a thing, and as they observe people act, they apply theory to describe what they saw, right? They use theory to describe the socially phenomenal world that we live in, and then they say, okay, this is why it's happening. This is the underlying physics of why these people act the way they do, and then they tell it with a slant. They find an interesting way to communicate it such a way that when they get on stage and go, every time we go to the mall, you notice that you do this, we all go, oh my goodness, that's so me. I totally do that. Of course you do, because they have used what we know is to be the best description of human behavior. Theory and applied it to something empirical that happens. The phenomenon that we take on, the chances of us understanding people are far higher when those two things are together and the chances of us saying something that's meaningful to them is far greater when we tell it with a slant. And that's what good marketers do, mark, especially advertisers do. But market research, no one does it better than comedians. Full stop. [00:17:12] Dan Runcie: And this gets at something else. I know you've talked about comedians are able to get at that intimacy level. They're actually interacting with people. They're seeing things, and they're not mistaking that for information. And I think that's one of the challenges. I know you've talked about how we have so much data. There's so many companies that can easily just turn on Facebook ads, turn on Google ads, so you could see the profiles, but that doesn't necessarily give you that deep engagement to be able to understand beyond, and I feel like that's becoming a bit more and more of a challenge. [00:17:44] Marcus Collins: Exactly, that's the paradox. More information, very little intimacy and comedians are, have always been intimate and marketers used to be intimate, but as we get more. Information, more data. We go, oh, I don't need to go spend time with people. I don't need to go talk to people because I have their search history. I have their click history, I have their downloads. I have what they watch and what they listen to that describes who they are. It describes what they do. To get to who they are, we have to get closer. We need greater proximity to understand the underlying physics that govern, why they listen to trap music and why they watch, Succession, and why they consume what they consume, why they're going back into the nineties for fashion inspiration. Why is that happening? We can observe it and say, oh, cool, that's a thing. That's a trend spotting, but you don't know what's going on until you get close to people. And this is what we have to do as marketers. And I would even argue that maybe this is what we need to be doing as a society. Just get a little closer to people and it's easy to look at someone and go, oh, they're crazy. Because they operate by a different meaning system than we do, than different cultural characteristics than we do. But if we understand that the way we see the world is subjective, not objective, we go, oh, well my truth isn't, their truth doesn't mean that they're wrong. It just means it's just a little different. And the closer I get to understanding how these people make, meaning, how they navigate the world. The more connected I probably feel to them, but as a marketer, the more likely I am to interact with them, to engage them, to get them to adopt behavior, which is the core function of our gig. [00:19:18] Dan Runcie: This reminds me of Tyler Perry and what he's done with Tyler Perry Studios too. Of course, we all know the backstory. He was doing his plays. His plays were able to gain great traction. He ended up moving that into movies and his TV shows and everything he's done since. But even through all that success, he still was doing the plays. That was his opportunity to be in front of the actual audiences, see how they reacted. He would make jokes different in the north versus the south versus the Midwest, and that's his way of, although he may not be a traditional comedian, he's still wearing all the hats and he's still providing humor through his content. So I think that's one of the things that doesn't get talked about as much, about why he's been able to build this billion dollar empire. [00:20:05] Marcus Collins: That's right and the best set up comedians, they still go to the Laugh factory. They still go to the hole in the wall to try new bits to sign, try new material. Oh, they laughed at that one, not this one. Okay. That one got in. Okay, cool. They build their set by workshopping it iteratively, right? But marketers, that we hold onto it. We concoct it in the walls of our offices and then we release it to the world, prayerfully, hopefully in Shallah that it's gonna connect with someone. And it's like, well, yeah, there's some randomness that we can't control. Sure, we can't predict everything, but we can certainly increase the likelihood of connecting by just getting closer. And the challenge is that there are perverse incentives that make getting closer a challenge. In that it takes time. It takes effort to build relationships, to talk to people, to see the world through their lenses. Where I've had, I got one quarter to turn my business around, man, whatever's the most efficient. And that's what we rely on. And we wonder why we don't have strong relationships with our consumers because we look at consumers as machines, eat messages and crap cash, as opposed to real life human beings who navigate the world through their cultural lenses. [00:21:18] Dan Runcie: Do you think this got worse since the pandemic? [00:21:21] Marcus Collins: I would say in some ways, yes, in some ways, no. I think that there was a level of elasticity that when the pandemic hit, people were emailing everyone in their database saying, We care about. You we're thinking about you and then someone made that film where it took all the ads from all the marketers and they were saying all the same things. And you go, this is nonsense. And marketers went, oh, they're right. So let's like be a little bit more human. And people got human like, like the murder of George Floyd. People were like, oh, there's a world that exists beyond my own. there are lenses that are translating the world that aren't my own. Let me go see the world through other people's eyes. And for a moment, therefore, a brief moment we were getting in like some humanity in the world. But then once we got back to some normality, some normalcy, we snapped back into place. All right, cool. Let's use the data. Tells us, let's use it, this news to that. I thought that the pandemic was an interesting time because people just became a bit more empathetic, right? We saw companies treat their employees a little bit differently. They're like, hey, gives people some grace. People need time. People need space. like people's needs. And then once we went back to quote unquote normal, assuming we're back to some kinda normality, get back to work, get back in the office, gonna razor sharper. My battery lasts longer, my car goes faster. You aren't human, kind of a sad situation. and you would think that kind of inogen shock to the system will wake us up a little bit more. But unfortunately I think that there's some return to status quo a bit. [00:22:53] Dan Runcie: Part of the challenge seemed like there was so much growth that so many software and tech companies had during the pandemic, given the nature of the services they offered, and because the pandemic and lockdowns limited, then from the in-person interactions, it could be very easy to think, okay, well we don't need to spend the money on those focus groups. We don't need to spend the money on having our leadership team be out in the field to interact with people. Look at what we're able to do in the current ecosystem and we saw that there was just so much growth, especially from March, 2020 up until November, 2021. Things were booming, but then. World started to open back up and I feel like we're starting to see it more. We're seeing more flexibility with what certain companies are doing in terms of their policies, whether they are letting people work from home. But I'm also seeing people wanting more in-person events, more engagement. There is an appetite for this, which I think should hopefully translate to an appetite to getting in-person time and more inpe intimacy with the people you're actually trying to serve. [00:23:57] Marcus Collins: Well, what I think is awesome. Is that the technologies help facilitate ways to get closer, even if you can't in person, right? So, you know, we typically use ethnographic research for, when we're trying to study culture, right? Go into people's cultural contexts, observe them, interact with them, don't be, you know, sort of a tourist, be a part of the community. But then there's netnographic research, which is the same thing in ethnography, just in online spaces. In fact, all of my academic work. All my academic research is typically done on Reddit like I'm observing these communities in their cultural contexts, practice their cultural subscription, and the beautiful part about Reddit, truly. Now, I'm about to just nerd out for a moment here cause we could do that. Dan, is that Reddit has moderators that actually clinging the data for you. The moderators, they remove content that's not within the cultural conventions of the community, and then they'll get rid of people who post things that are outside of the norms of the community. They are cleaning the data for us to observe this community operate and abide by its cultural characteristics for a researcher goodnight. It doesn't get any better than that. And we get to observe these people make meaning through their discourse in an unobtrusive way. And not only that, we get over the hurdle that people have about qualitative research, that the sample size is so small that we can see this in massive, massive, massive, occasions in my dissertation work, I had over 12 million lines of text. I'm watching people engage. And like I'm going through it and looking at how they make meaning, the language they use, the memes that they use, all these different texts that they use in an effort to communicate, to help make meaning, negotiate, construct meaning. That's superman powerful. And if nothing else, this creates great opportunity for us, right? You could do interviews via Zoom. We did some ethnographic work, with folks in China when mainland China wasn't letting anyone in or out, so we couldn't even go be in the field. So we used Zoom. That was helpful, right? The technology is meant to extend our human behaviors, right? It means to extend where we have human limitations. And if we don't take advantage of that, what are we doing really? [00:26:15] Dan Runcie: I love that you mentioned Reddit there because it is a great lens into all of these subreddit. Each of them is a community that provides a reflection on what that broader community may be thinking, what they if, how they evaluate things and how they interact with each other. How do you, from an audience segmentation perspective, how do you look at the conversations that may happen within those communities and. Get an idea of how that may extend to a broader community, knowing that Reddit itself does attract, maybe a more analytical or a deeper type of thought that may be slightly different in terms of the broader subreddit community represents. [00:26:53] Marcus Collins: Sure. So, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So when we're going out in the field to Stu to study, see, I wanna study cost players. I'm gonna go to Comic-Con where the hardcore cost players are, because these are the people that are abiding by the cultural characteristics of what it means to be a cost player, right? I'm gonna implant myself where they are and engage with them because oftentimes these are people that are like a part that are leading the construction of an a negotiation of meaning among the community. So Reddit, to your point, these are people who are hardcore into it. And maybe there's some bias in the fact that they're more inclined to be there than others, but they're representative of the community. And what we do in all research truly, is that we look at a sample of the market and then we try to generalize the learnings, right? So we, we look at, social phenomenon and try to find generalizability of it. So my research, particularly my dissertation, I looked at how brands of branded products spread within a cultural context. And I chose hip hop because hip hop's tentacles are. I mean, I'm talking to the guy who wrote the book on this, and you know this very well, how widespread hip hop's impact is in like, almost every industry. You could think of jewelry, high fashion, high tech, auto, sneakers, beauty, pharmaceuticals, everything, hip hiphop touches almost every single thing. So I studied, how brands and branded products spread in hiphop culture. Specifically, this community looked at the mechanisms by which they make meaning and they evaluate and legitimate products as they spread, throughout, throughout the community. And then generalized that broadly on how communities make meaning. Now, there'll be nuances that'll be different for rock climbers versus pickle ballers versus runners. But at its core, these are the processes by which things spread. So we try to get at some generalizability, especially when we have a wide swath of data to analyze. [00:28:56] Dan Runcie: Makes sense, and I know we've talked about that dissertation before. it's powerful. I mean, and that's so much of what attracted me to this work as well. We see how hip hop is so pervasive in every corner that it touches. And that's only going to continue even if they may not call it hip hop in the future. We still know where the origins come from, I say that because of just some trends I'm seeing in terms of how certain songs have been categorized and they've been talking about hip hop's decline. But we know what's there when we hear general music themes. This is the origination place. This is where it is, and this culture is now about to celebrate its 50th year in a few months, so it's just great. [00:29:34] Marcus Collins: I mean, which is why Trapital is so important, man. Like it's, you need, cultural producers to preach the gospel and to quantify its impact on commerce in the economy, which is you're doing the good work. [00:29:46] Dan Runcie: Thank you. Appreciate that. So before we close things out, let's talk a bit more about for the culture itself. You've been doing so much work in this space, you already had a great platform. What was the value add for you with this book, putting it out there, what does it do for you moving forward and how is that process? [00:30:04] Marcus Collins: The hope for me personally, is to scale my impact like I believe that reasonable, my ideology, my belief, my conviction is that we're put in this world to serve God, and serve each other. That's what I believe, and the way I serve is by helping people realize the best version themselves operate the highest fidelity. So the book is a way to scale my impact. As opposed to if you can't be in a Michigan classroom and you can't be a client at Widen Kennedy, or you can't be on my team at Widen Kennedy, here's a way to get some of, some of the thought leadership, right? But the other part, it's to helpfully raise, the industry that if we are using different language, A better Rosetta Stone talk about culture that will be better practitioners of culture and bear some responsibility to what we do. So we're not conquesting people's culture to sell more widgets, but we're actually contributing to it, realizing, that when we're using other people's cultural markers, we run the risk of what we know is appropriation. If we do that without understanding the meaning that it's associated to those things. And once we understand that, we go, oh, okay. We're not just gonna pimp their thing out, we're gonna contribute to the community that actually has made this thing a thing. And the hope is that, the residuals from that, the reverberation from that, will make a little dent in the world and would've I would've done my part. if that happens. [00:31:30] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. Love it. Well, for people that are listening along and wanna get a copy of further culture themselves, where can they get it and where can they follow you? [00:31:38] Marcus Collins: the book for the cultures available where all books are sold, particularly Amazon. you could find me at @marctothec, m a r c t o t h e c at all the social places, and marctothec.com/. [00:31:50] Dan Runcie: Love it. Dr. Marcus Collins. Thank you. [00:31:53] Dan Runcie Episode Outro: Thanks for watching Trapital on YouTube. If you want more where that came from, please subscribe to our YouTube channel so you can get all the latest updates. Or if you wanna hear the latest episodes, go ahead. Subscribe to the Trapital podcast. That's Trapital wherever you get podcasts. And if you wanna stay up to date with the latest insights, go ahead and subscribe to the Trapital newsletter. That's Tapital.co And sign up there. Thanks so much. [00:32:19] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 11 May 2023 09:00:00 -0000 How Brands Become Ideologies (with Marcus Collins) full Dan Runcie It’s never been easier for brands to push their message out. But building true connections is  in today’s fragmented landscape. Dr. Marcus Collins has advice for cutting through the noise. His new book, “For The Culture”, is full of insights. Marcus has worked with Beyonce, Apple, Nike and more. He’s the Head of Strategy at Wieden+Kennedy, and a marketing professor at the Michigan Ross School of Business (Go Blue!). Marcus believes people use brands to express who they are. To win now and in the future, the most successful brands will have to double down on identity, not on value proposition. Here’s everything we covered: [3:20] How media fragmentation is affecting community-building  [5:35] Brands have to activate people, not algorithms   [8:45] Ideology creates cultural consumption [10:44] Brand ideology transcends industries [19:18] How non-visible companies can use tangibility to brand build [20:04] Effective market research goes beyond just data [23:57] Great marketing taps into the moment [30:04] Why Marcus wrote this book [31:30] How to reach Marcus Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Marcus Collins, @marctothec This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm This episode is also brought to you in collaboration with Primary Wave. James Brown would have turned 90 this month. Let’s revisit his cultural legacy and check out his greatest hits. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Marcus Collins: The hope for me personally, is to scale my impact like I believe that reasonable, my ideology, my belief, my conviction is that we're put in this world to serve God, and serve each other. That's what I believe, and the way I serve is by helping people realize the best version themselves operate the highest fidelity. So the book is a way to scale my impact. [00:00:21] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:45] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is all about culture, culture's ability to drive the decisions we make in business, in society and more. And our guest is the one and only Dr. Marcus Collins. He is an award-winning marketer. He's a professor at the Ross School of Businesses, university of Michigan, go blue. And he has done a number of impressive things in his career, working on campaigns like Apple Music, Budweiser, made in America's Festival, Bud Light Platinum, Beyonce and her digital work, especially in the Sasha Fierce era. He's also worked with Matthew Knowles, Steve Stout, and many others in the industry today, and he is the author of a new book that just came out called For the Culture. So in this episode we talked a lot about brands reaching that ideology level, which Marcus describes as that top tier that a brand could reach in terms of how it connects and identifies with people and in communities. So we talk about what that looks like. We also talk about Marcus' goals for this book, how that shapes his viewpoints and some of the challenges that brands can face. With regards to branding and reaching that ideology level, whether certain industries are more or less disposed to being able to get there and more. I give Marcus a ton of credit, him and I had met over a decade ago, back when I was in business school at Michigan as well, and seeing his career path and a lot of the decisions that he was able to make a transition into doing something he truly loves and is one of the best people in the world at what he does, gave me inspiration to not only see that there were plenty of other non-traditional career paths after going to business school, but I think a lot of that also informed the type of work that I now do at Trapital today and how I try to continue myself on the path that makes most sense for me. So really great conversation, always great to have him on a second time on the podcast. So here's my conversation with Marcus. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:41] Dan Runcie: All right. We are joined today by the one and only Dr. Marcus Collins, author of For the Culture, an award-winning marketer and a Ross alum. Go Blue. Welcome back, man. [00:02:51] Marcus Collins: That's right. Thanks man. Thanks for having me, doc. Always a pleasure to be with [00:02:55] Dan Runcie: Likewise and your book. Great job on it. Great job on the release too. You got a bunch of heavy hitters giving support for this. And one of the things that I wanna start with, you've talked about this before, the ideology hierarchy that brands go through and that journey. So for the listeners, can you first explain what that is and then an example of a brand that you think has gotten there and done A good example of that. [00:03:20] Marcus Collins: Yeah, so we think about ideology, it's about the way the brand sees the world, like the point of view that the brand has it's conviction. Some call it as purpose. It's really the driving belief that dictates where the brand goes, what it says, what it does, and with whom. it shows up in the world. And we all think about strong brands as brands that people know. Oh, I know that brand. we're strong. Where a lot of brands that we know that we don't consume from, right? Like Sears, we know that brand Blockbuster, we know that brand, but clearly people weren't showing up. So awareness isn't enough. One step up, we go, well there's, I know that brand and it has good quality, right? Oh, that's awesome. I know the brand has has good quality. It's a stronger brand. But to go one step higher is to know the brand. Strong, good quality, but it's also considered a leader in the space, right? So you've got like a Hulu and a Netflix and a Tubly. Which one is more trusted? Well, definitely ain't Tubly, right? Because they're not considered anywhere close to being a leader in the space. A step up from that is trust and confidence. I trust the brand. Not only do I know it, it has, good products. it's a leader in the category, but I also trust it. I have confidence in it. We think about, the headphones that we know to be the most trusted headphones in the market. We'll say, oh, that's Bose, right? Bose is demonstratively, a leader in the category and the most trusted headphones. Think about audio quality, sonic quality. However, Bose is bested in the market by Beats by Dre. Why is that? Because Beats by Dre operates at a higher level still. It's association and relevance that the brand, it's relevant for someone like me and the association, the imagery I have that's associated to the brand makes it seem cooler, right? Which is why Beats by Dre owned like 48% of the market when they were before AirPods came out, right when it came to the headphone market. But then it's one step higher than that. And the most strongest brands operate at this zenith, this pinnacle of brand strength. And that's ideology. They transcend the value propositions of the product. My razor sharper, my battery last longer, my car goes faster, and they operate at a place of conviction. And this is so strong for brands because people consume those brands, not just cuz of what they are and what they do, but because who these people are. And the brand becomes an extension of my identity. of Who I am, a Patagonia fleece is just as warm as a Columbia fleece, however, where in Patagonia says something about who I am, my identity, that I believe in mitigating our impact on the environment, and that's massively powerful. [00:06:01] Dan Runcie: This is relevant for musicians and artists as well, because I think they have some of those ideological brands too. I've been looking at the trends, especially with vinyl sales. More than half of the people that are buying vinyl don't have players. They're buying them to put them on display to showcase them. It is an extension of them. I want you to think that I am the type of person that listens to Drake, that listens to Tyler the creator. That's that zenith that we're talking about. it [00:06:29] Marcus Collins: It was so cool, and I fully agree with you. A few years ago, Fruit of the Loom, they do partnerships with musical acts like, Metallica, Kiss, Aerosmith, Seal's t-shirts. People got metallic on their, shirts. That's a licensing deal between fruit, the loos, and those musical acts. And a few years back, fruit looms. Were looking at their book of business to see which. brand, likeness which artists l likeness was doing better than the others. So they can re-up those licenses and they found that the Ramones was outperforming Kiss, Metallica, Aerosmith. They're like, what's going on The Ramones little small little band. Then they had like two albums out in the seventies, like, what's happening here? So they asked those fans, they said, you know, you must be a really big fan of the Ramones that you bought this t-shirt. They were like, Nah, I don't even know they're music. But the Ramones mean punk rock, and they want to be seen as punk rock, the meaning associated with the brand, that vessel of meaning that is brand. People use it as an identity mark, not because of what it is, but because of who they are. I mean, the biggest brands that we know, the biggest artists that we know, they all transcend what they do and operate at a level of why they do it. In the words of Simon Sinek, [00:07:43] Dan Runcie: This reminds me of those Iron Maiden t-shirts. You remember that era? Maybe it was like five, seven years ago when everybody was wearing Iron Maiden t-shirts. I don't know if they were really listened to the music, but I think it's that thing as well where they just wanna be seen like the type of person that would identify with that [00:07:58] Marcus Collins: Of course not. Of course not. I mean, people are wearing, Red Bull t-shirts. That was a thing, is a way of signaling something about yourself. NASA t-shirts. Exactly. Like just signaling something about yourself. And really, that's all we're trying to do to try to peacock our way through the world signal who we are in hopes that we can find people who are like ourselves and we find connection because that's what we are, we're social animals by nature. [00:08:21] Dan Runcie: And a lot of this, at least what we talked about so far, are consumer brands. This applies at the enterprise level as well. I think a company like McKinsey aligns perfectly. There is a status that you're able to send both internally within the organization and externally by hiring that firm, spending the seven figures for them to come and work on your project because of what you want to be able to say. [00:08:45] Marcus Collins: To say, McKenzie is our agency, that's who does our strategy work, McKenzie, and we know this from being in business school, that people want McKenzie on their resume. Because of what McKenzie means, what it signifies, you know, there's a sociologist named Pierre Perdue, who talks about this idea of cultural capital that our consumption, the more conspicuous it is, the more we align, value from it. There is embodied cultural capital. That is our skills, our knowledge, what we know, like, you know, if you go to the opera and, you know, the literature, you know, the Odyssey, you know the Homer, you know all that stuff. Then you have a amount of, value, of capital, of cultural capital. And the idea is that if you were an equestrian growing up, that signals that you've come from wealth and your friends who were equestrians growing up signals that they come from wealth and who fr what friends, do you have friends like those and those friends open up doors for you for jobs? VC funding and the alike, right? So that cultural capital that embodied cultural capital turns into financial capital. The same thing goes with objectified cultural capital, the things that we buy, the clothes that we wear, the cars that we drive. This a way of signaling who we are in the world in an effort to meet other people like ourselves, that open up door for financial capital. The same thing goes for institutional cultural capital where I go to school, where I work, what fraternity I joined, whether I was in Jack and Jill, like these things signal who we are in the world that open up more financial economic opportunities for ourselves. So you're right. So it's not just, B2C as we typically think about it. These are all the many ways that we signal who we are in the world, the companies we work for, the schools we went to, the institutions that we frequent. These are all consumption behavior to signal our identity. So that we might find people like ourselves that create more social and financial opportunities for ourselves. [00:10:44] Dan Runcie: Are there certain industries or sectors that hitting that ideological level is extremely difficult or it's almost impossible? I think back to my own career experience. I've had internships at cable companies and airlines, and I think that there's challenges, especially just given the nature of their businesses, how consumers interact with them. But even I think about companies in waste management and areas like that. Companies that could have strong brands and business businesses, but is there a ceiling of how high certain companies and certain industries can go because of the industry dynamics? [00:11:19] Marcus Collins: I think that if a company defines itself by what it does, then yes, there is a ceiling. But if a company defines itself by what it believes, I think the possibilities are endless. Cuz even as you name off those companies, we look at them through the lens of their industry, their category. And they are defined by their category. Oh, you have waste management services. So you are in waste management. You have an airline. So you are in the airline industry. you make microprocessors, so you're the micro processing industry. When you only define yourself by the product services or product goods you bring to the world, then that's the only opportunity you have. But when you elevate beyond that, you say, we believe this. We just so happened to provide waste management services. Imagine if we said this is arbitrarily speaking. Imagine we said that we believe that a clean environment makes for. a better life. Let's just say that. I'm just make that up, right. A clean environment makes for a better life, and that's why we have sanitation services, waste management services. Then we go, well, what else could be better if it were clean? Well, what if we cleaned up the oceans? We're no longer in the waste management business. We are in the cleaning oceans business. Or, well, what if we cleaned up the internet? Mm. What if we went through the internet and found all the smut, all the whatever, the things that aren't as savory. Maybe for kids and we're going to clean the internet up. We're gonna create products to do that. We just so happen to do waste management. We still happen to clean up oceans. We still happen to create software that cleans up the internet. But what we do that because we believe that a clean environment creates for better solutions. Again, I just riff that but the idea is that if you operate at that level, you are not defined by your category and what you do. You're defined by your conviction and why you do it, and that is just Superman powerful. And then you bring in people who see the road the way you do. [00:13:12] Dan Runcie: I think we just gave an entire industry. A market class and a playbook that they can use moving forward. [00:13:19] Marcus Collins: That's right. We should of held onto that one. [00:13:21] Dan Runcie: But you're right, because it also makes me think of insurance, and I know you worked with translation and one of their big accounts has been State Farm, and if you look at the product itself, the features of that product don't necessarily align on the surface of what you would think could be something that is something you would advertise in that way, but we look at the benefits. That's how you can think more broadly. We can get to Chris Paul versus Cliff Paul, and so many of the other memorable campaigns we've seen from State Farm. [00:13:50] Marcus Collins: What's actually quite interesting about that and you're spot on, is that I don't think there's very many industries as commoditized as the insurance industry. They all use the same actuaries. All of them use the exact same actuaries, just some of them are more conservative than others, and they're willing to charge you a premium for their product. And I suppose the way they, you know, get it, the job done at the end of the day is better than others. But according to the research, from when I was working in insurance, people only report their collisions, their calamities 25 to 35% of the time. So 65% of the time, at best, people aren't even reporting the accidents. So the brand, the company never comes in to actually make good on their promise, right? We're just really hanging on there based on what this brand is all about. And State Farm exists because they believe that people should live life more confidently every day to help people live life more confidently every day. This will happen to have 18,000 agents across the country to help people make better decisions. This will happen to have to cover your stuff and help provide financial services, but why they do it? To help people live life more confidently every day. And now you say, okay, so how might we do that? Well, What does that mean for basketball? The NBA, one of their sponsorships? Where is actual statistic for helping people in the n NBA called the assist? Let's go after that. Now you have a creative platform to be a part of this institution that we call the NBA, but also another way of demonstrating why you exist, not what you do. [00:15:26] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. Makes sense. Yeah. I mean, I think that's applicable for a number of industries here, and we're getting into insights and just how you perceive people. And one of the things that we're talking about is who are the best market researchers. You have this piece in the book, and you've talked about this before, about why comedians are actually some of the best market researchers out there. Could you talk a little bit more about that? [00:15:49] Marcus Collins: Yeah. Comedians are phenomenal because they just observe people. They observe us humans as the social actors that we are, as we navigate the phenomenal world that we live in, and they look at people and go, that's odd. You see what she did? Oh, and he did it too. And they did it. And they did it. Okay. This is a thing, and as they observe people act, they apply theory to describe what they saw, right? They use theory to describe the socially phenomenal world that we live in, and then they say, okay, this is why it's happening. This is the underlying physics of why these people act the way they do, and then they tell it with a slant. They find an interesting way to communicate it such a way that when they get on stage and go, every time we go to the mall, you notice that you do this, we all go, oh my goodness, that's so me. I totally do that. Of course you do, because they have used what we know is to be the best description of human behavior. Theory and applied it to something empirical that happens. The phenomenon that we take on, the chances of us understanding people are far higher when those two things are together and the chances of us saying something that's meaningful to them is far greater when we tell it with a slant. And that's what good marketers do, mark, especially advertisers do. But market research, no one does it better than comedians. Full stop. [00:17:12] Dan Runcie: And this gets at something else. I know you've talked about comedians are able to get at that intimacy level. They're actually interacting with people. They're seeing things, and they're not mistaking that for information. And I think that's one of the challenges. I know you've talked about how we have so much data. There's so many companies that can easily just turn on Facebook ads, turn on Google ads, so you could see the profiles, but that doesn't necessarily give you that deep engagement to be able to understand beyond, and I feel like that's becoming a bit more and more of a challenge. [00:17:44] Marcus Collins: Exactly, that's the paradox. More information, very little intimacy and comedians are, have always been intimate and marketers used to be intimate, but as we get more. Information, more data. We go, oh, I don't need to go spend time with people. I don't need to go talk to people because I have their search history. I have their click history, I have their downloads. I have what they watch and what they listen to that describes who they are. It describes what they do. To get to who they are, we have to get closer. We need greater proximity to understand the underlying physics that govern, why they listen to trap music and why they watch, Succession, and why they consume what they consume, why they're going back into the nineties for fashion inspiration. Why is that happening? We can observe it and say, oh, cool, that's a thing. That's a trend spotting, but you don't know what's going on until you get close to people. And this is what we have to do as marketers. And I would even argue that maybe this is what we need to be doing as a society. Just get a little closer to people and it's easy to look at someone and go, oh, they're crazy. Because they operate by a different meaning system than we do, than different cultural characteristics than we do. But if we understand that the way we see the world is subjective, not objective, we go, oh, well my truth isn't, their truth doesn't mean that they're wrong. It just means it's just a little different. And the closer I get to understanding how these people make, meaning, how they navigate the world. The more connected I probably feel to them, but as a marketer, the more likely I am to interact with them, to engage them, to get them to adopt behavior, which is the core function of our gig. [00:19:18] Dan Runcie: This reminds me of Tyler Perry and what he's done with Tyler Perry Studios too. Of course, we all know the backstory. He was doing his plays. His plays were able to gain great traction. He ended up moving that into movies and his TV shows and everything he's done since. But even through all that success, he still was doing the plays. That was his opportunity to be in front of the actual audiences, see how they reacted. He would make jokes different in the north versus the south versus the Midwest, and that's his way of, although he may not be a traditional comedian, he's still wearing all the hats and he's still providing humor through his content. So I think that's one of the things that doesn't get talked about as much, about why he's been able to build this billion dollar empire. [00:20:05] Marcus Collins: That's right and the best set up comedians, they still go to the Laugh factory. They still go to the hole in the wall to try new bits to sign, try new material. Oh, they laughed at that one, not this one. Okay. That one got in. Okay, cool. They build their set by workshopping it iteratively, right? But marketers, that we hold onto it. We concoct it in the walls of our offices and then we release it to the world, prayerfully, hopefully in Shallah that it's gonna connect with someone. And it's like, well, yeah, there's some randomness that we can't control. Sure, we can't predict everything, but we can certainly increase the likelihood of connecting by just getting closer. And the challenge is that there are perverse incentives that make getting closer a challenge. In that it takes time. It takes effort to build relationships, to talk to people, to see the world through their lenses. Where I've had, I got one quarter to turn my business around, man, whatever's the most efficient. And that's what we rely on. And we wonder why we don't have strong relationships with our consumers because we look at consumers as machines, eat messages and crap cash, as opposed to real life human beings who navigate the world through their cultural lenses. [00:21:18] Dan Runcie: Do you think this got worse since the pandemic? [00:21:21] Marcus Collins: I would say in some ways, yes, in some ways, no. I think that there was a level of elasticity that when the pandemic hit, people were emailing everyone in their database saying, We care about. You we're thinking about you and then someone made that film where it took all the ads from all the marketers and they were saying all the same things. And you go, this is nonsense. And marketers went, oh, they're right. So let's like be a little bit more human. And people got human like, like the murder of George Floyd. People were like, oh, there's a world that exists beyond my own. there are lenses that are translating the world that aren't my own. Let me go see the world through other people's eyes. And for a moment, therefore, a brief moment we were getting in like some humanity in the world. But then once we got back to some normality, some normalcy, we snapped back into place. All right, cool. Let's use the data. Tells us, let's use it, this news to that. I thought that the pandemic was an interesting time because people just became a bit more empathetic, right? We saw companies treat their employees a little bit differently. They're like, hey, gives people some grace. People need time. People need space. like people's needs. And then once we went back to quote unquote normal, assuming we're back to some kinda normality, get back to work, get back in the office, gonna razor sharper. My battery lasts longer, my car goes faster. You aren't human, kind of a sad situation. and you would think that kind of inogen shock to the system will wake us up a little bit more. But unfortunately I think that there's some return to status quo a bit. [00:22:53] Dan Runcie: Part of the challenge seemed like there was so much growth that so many software and tech companies had during the pandemic, given the nature of the services they offered, and because the pandemic and lockdowns limited, then from the in-person interactions, it could be very easy to think, okay, well we don't need to spend the money on those focus groups. We don't need to spend the money on having our leadership team be out in the field to interact with people. Look at what we're able to do in the current ecosystem and we saw that there was just so much growth, especially from March, 2020 up until November, 2021. Things were booming, but then. World started to open back up and I feel like we're starting to see it more. We're seeing more flexibility with what certain companies are doing in terms of their policies, whether they are letting people work from home. But I'm also seeing people wanting more in-person events, more engagement. There is an appetite for this, which I think should hopefully translate to an appetite to getting in-person time and more inpe intimacy with the people you're actually trying to serve. [00:23:57] Marcus Collins: Well, what I think is awesome. Is that the technologies help facilitate ways to get closer, even if you can't in person, right? So, you know, we typically use ethnographic research for, when we're trying to study culture, right? Go into people's cultural contexts, observe them, interact with them, don't be, you know, sort of a tourist, be a part of the community. But then there's netnographic research, which is the same thing in ethnography, just in online spaces. In fact, all of my academic work. All my academic research is typically done on Reddit like I'm observing these communities in their cultural contexts, practice their cultural subscription, and the beautiful part about Reddit, truly. Now, I'm about to just nerd out for a moment here cause we could do that. Dan, is that Reddit has moderators that actually clinging the data for you. The moderators, they remove content that's not within the cultural conventions of the community, and then they'll get rid of people who post things that are outside of the norms of the community. They are cleaning the data for us to observe this community operate and abide by its cultural characteristics for a researcher goodnight. It doesn't get any better than that. And we get to observe these people make meaning through their discourse in an unobtrusive way. And not only that, we get over the hurdle that people have about qualitative research, that the sample size is so small that we can see this in massive, massive, massive, occasions in my dissertation work, I had over 12 million lines of text. I'm watching people engage. And like I'm going through it and looking at how they make meaning, the language they use, the memes that they use, all these different texts that they use in an effort to communicate, to help make meaning, negotiate, construct meaning. That's superman powerful. And if nothing else, this creates great opportunity for us, right? You could do interviews via Zoom. We did some ethnographic work, with folks in China when mainland China wasn't letting anyone in or out, so we couldn't even go be in the field. So we used Zoom. That was helpful, right? The technology is meant to extend our human behaviors, right? It means to extend where we have human limitations. And if we don't take advantage of that, what are we doing really? [00:26:15] Dan Runcie: I love that you mentioned Reddit there because it is a great lens into all of these subreddit. Each of them is a community that provides a reflection on what that broader community may be thinking, what they if, how they evaluate things and how they interact with each other. How do you, from an audience segmentation perspective, how do you look at the conversations that may happen within those communities and. Get an idea of how that may extend to a broader community, knowing that Reddit itself does attract, maybe a more analytical or a deeper type of thought that may be slightly different in terms of the broader subreddit community represents. [00:26:53] Marcus Collins: Sure. So, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So when we're going out in the field to Stu to study, see, I wanna study cost players. I'm gonna go to Comic-Con where the hardcore cost players are, because these are the people that are abiding by the cultural characteristics of what it means to be a cost player, right? I'm gonna implant myself where they are and engage with them because oftentimes these are people that are like a part that are leading the construction of an a negotiation of meaning among the community. So Reddit, to your point, these are people who are hardcore into it. And maybe there's some bias in the fact that they're more inclined to be there than others, but they're representative of the community. And what we do in all research truly, is that we look at a sample of the market and then we try to generalize the learnings, right? So we, we look at, social phenomenon and try to find generalizability of it. So my research, particularly my dissertation, I looked at how brands of branded products spread within a cultural context. And I chose hip hop because hip hop's tentacles are. I mean, I'm talking to the guy who wrote the book on this, and you know this very well, how widespread hip hop's impact is in like, almost every industry. You could think of jewelry, high fashion, high tech, auto, sneakers, beauty, pharmaceuticals, everything, hip hiphop touches almost every single thing. So I studied, how brands and branded products spread in hiphop culture. Specifically, this community looked at the mechanisms by which they make meaning and they evaluate and legitimate products as they spread, throughout, throughout the community. And then generalized that broadly on how communities make meaning. Now, there'll be nuances that'll be different for rock climbers versus pickle ballers versus runners. But at its core, these are the processes by which things spread. So we try to get at some generalizability, especially when we have a wide swath of data to analyze. [00:28:56] Dan Runcie: Makes sense, and I know we've talked about that dissertation before. it's powerful. I mean, and that's so much of what attracted me to this work as well. We see how hip hop is so pervasive in every corner that it touches. And that's only going to continue even if they may not call it hip hop in the future. We still know where the origins come from, I say that because of just some trends I'm seeing in terms of how certain songs have been categorized and they've been talking about hip hop's decline. But we know what's there when we hear general music themes. This is the origination place. This is where it is, and this culture is now about to celebrate its 50th year in a few months, so it's just great. [00:29:34] Marcus Collins: I mean, which is why Trapital is so important, man. Like it's, you need, cultural producers to preach the gospel and to quantify its impact on commerce in the economy, which is you're doing the good work. [00:29:46] Dan Runcie: Thank you. Appreciate that. So before we close things out, let's talk a bit more about for the culture itself. You've been doing so much work in this space, you already had a great platform. What was the value add for you with this book, putting it out there, what does it do for you moving forward and how is that process? [00:30:04] Marcus Collins: The hope for me personally, is to scale my impact like I believe that reasonable, my ideology, my belief, my conviction is that we're put in this world to serve God, and serve each other. That's what I believe, and the way I serve is by helping people realize the best version themselves operate the highest fidelity. So the book is a way to scale my impact. As opposed to if you can't be in a Michigan classroom and you can't be a client at Widen Kennedy, or you can't be on my team at Widen Kennedy, here's a way to get some of, some of the thought leadership, right? But the other part, it's to helpfully raise, the industry that if we are using different language, A better Rosetta Stone talk about culture that will be better practitioners of culture and bear some responsibility to what we do. So we're not conquesting people's culture to sell more widgets, but we're actually contributing to it, realizing, that when we're using other people's cultural markers, we run the risk of what we know is appropriation. If we do that without understanding the meaning that it's associated to those things. And once we understand that, we go, oh, okay. We're not just gonna pimp their thing out, we're gonna contribute to the community that actually has made this thing a thing. And the hope is that, the residuals from that, the reverberation from that, will make a little dent in the world and would've I would've done my part. if that happens. [00:31:30] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. Love it. Well, for people that are listening along and wanna get a copy of further culture themselves, where can they get it and where can they follow you? [00:31:38] Marcus Collins: the book for the cultures available where all books are sold, particularly Amazon. you could find me at @marctothec, m a r c t o t h e c at all the social places, and marctothec.com/. [00:31:50] Dan Runcie: Love it. Dr. Marcus Collins. Thank you. [00:31:53] Dan Runcie Episode Outro: Thanks for watching Trapital on YouTube. If you want more where that came from, please subscribe to our YouTube channel so you can get all the latest updates. Or if you wanna hear the latest episodes, go ahead. Subscribe to the Trapital podcast. That's Trapital wherever you get podcasts. And if you wanna stay up to date with the latest insights, go ahead and subscribe to the Trapital newsletter. That's Tapital.co And sign up there. Thanks so much. [00:32:19] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend. Post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how travel continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. While you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. It’s never been easier for brands to push their message out. But building true connections is  in today’s fragmented landscape.


Dr. Marcus Collins has advice for cutting through the noise. His new book, “For The Culture”, is full of insights. Marcus has worked with Beyonce, Apple, Nike and more. He’s the Head of Strategy at Wieden+Kennedy, and a marketing professor at the Michigan Ross School of Business (Go Blue!).


Marcus believes people use brands to express who they are. To win now and in the future, the most successful brands will have to double down on identity, not on value proposition. Here’s everything we covered:


[3:20] How media fragmentation is affecting community-building 

[5:35] Brands have to activate people, not algorithms  

[8:45] Ideology creates cultural consumption

[10:44] Brand ideology transcends industries

[19:18] How non-visible companies can use tangibility to brand build

[20:04] Effective market research goes beyond just data

[23:57] Great marketing taps into the moment

[30:04] Why Marcus wrote this book

[31:30] How to reach Marcus


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Marcus Collins, @marctothec


This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm

This episode is also brought to you in collaboration with Primary Wave. James Brown would have turned 90 this month. Let’s revisit his cultural legacy and check out his greatest hits.


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.


TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Marcus Collins: The hope for me personally, is to scale my impact like I believe that reasonable, my ideology, my belief, my conviction is that we're put in this world to serve God, and serve each other. That's what I believe, and the way I serve is by helping people realize the best version themselves operate the highest fidelity. So the book is a way to scale my impact.

[00:00:21] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:45] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is all about culture, culture's ability to drive the decisions we make in business, in society and more. And our guest is the one and only Dr. Marcus Collins. He is an award-winning marketer. He's a professor at the Ross School of Businesses, university of Michigan, go blue. And he has done a number of impressive things in his career, working on campaigns like Apple Music, Budweiser, made in America's Festival, Bud Light Platinum, Beyonce and her digital work, especially in the Sasha Fierce era. He's also worked with Matthew Knowles, Steve Stout, and many others in the industry today, and he is the author of a new book that just came out called For the Culture. So in this episode we talked a lot about brands reaching that ideology level, which Marcus describes as that top tier that a brand could reach in terms of how it connects and identifies with people and in communities.

So we talk about what that looks like. We also talk about Marcus' goals for this book, how that shapes his viewpoints and some of the challenges that brands can face. With regards to branding and reaching that ideology level, whether certain industries are more or less disposed to being able to get there and more.

I give Marcus a ton of credit, him and I had met over a decade ago, back when I was in business school at Michigan as well, and seeing his career path and a lot of the decisions that he was able to make a transition into doing something he truly loves and is one of the best people in the world at what he does, gave me inspiration to not only see that there were plenty of other non-traditional career paths after going to business school, but I think a lot of that also informed the type of work that I now do at Trapital today and how I try to continue myself on the path that makes most sense for me.

So really great conversation, always great to have him on a second time on the podcast. So here's my conversation with Marcus. Hope you enjoy it.

[00:02:41] Dan Runcie: All right. We are joined today by the one and only Dr. Marcus Collins, author of For the Culture, an award-winning marketer and a Ross alum. Go Blue. Welcome back, man.

[00:02:51] Marcus Collins: That's right. Thanks man. Thanks for having me, doc. Always a pleasure to be with

[00:02:55] Dan Runcie: Likewise and your book. Great job on it. Great job on the release too. You got a bunch of heavy hitters giving support for this. And one of the things that I wanna start with, you've talked about this before, the ideology hierarchy that brands go through and that journey. So for the listeners, can you first explain what that is and then an example of a brand that you think has gotten there and done A good example of that.

[00:03:20] Marcus Collins: Yeah, so we think about ideology, it's about the way the brand sees the world, like the point of view that the brand has it's conviction. Some call it as purpose. It's really the driving belief that dictates where the brand goes, what it says, what it does, and with whom. it shows up in the world.

And we all think about strong brands as brands that people know. Oh, I know that brand. we're strong. Where a lot of brands that we know that we don't consume from, right? Like Sears, we know that brand Blockbuster, we know that brand, but clearly people weren't showing up. So awareness isn't enough. One step up, we go, well there's, I know that brand and it has good quality, right?

Oh, that's awesome. I know the brand has has good quality. It's a stronger brand. But to go one step higher is to know the brand. Strong, good quality, but it's also considered a leader in the space, right? So you've got like a Hulu and a Netflix and a Tubly. Which one is more trusted? Well, definitely ain't Tubly, right?

Because they're not considered anywhere close to being a leader in the space. A step up from that is trust and confidence. I trust the brand. Not only do I know it, it has, good products. it's a leader in the category, but I also trust it. I have confidence in it. We think about, the headphones that we know to be the most trusted headphones in the market.

We'll say, oh, that's Bose, right? Bose is demonstratively, a leader in the category and the most trusted headphones. Think about audio quality, sonic quality. However, Bose is bested in the market by Beats by Dre. Why is that? Because Beats by Dre operates at a higher level still. It's association and relevance that the brand, it's relevant for someone like me and the association, the imagery I have that's associated to the brand makes it seem cooler, right?

Which is why Beats by Dre owned like 48% of the market when they were before AirPods came out, right when it came to the headphone market. But then it's one step higher than that. And the most strongest brands operate at this zenith, this pinnacle of brand strength. And that's ideology. They transcend the value propositions of the product.

My razor sharper, my battery last longer, my car goes faster, and they operate at a place of conviction. And this is so strong for brands because people consume those brands, not just cuz of what they are and what they do, but because who these people are. And the brand becomes an extension of my identity.

of Who I am, a Patagonia fleece is just as warm as a Columbia fleece, however, where in Patagonia says something about who I am, my identity, that I believe in mitigating our impact on the environment, and that's massively powerful.

[00:06:01] Dan Runcie: This is relevant for musicians and artists as well, because I think they have some of those ideological brands too. I've been looking at the trends, especially with vinyl sales. More than half of the people that are buying vinyl don't have players. They're buying them to put them on display to showcase them.

It is an extension of them. I want you to think that I am the type of person that listens to Drake, that listens to Tyler the creator. That's that zenith that we're talking about. it

[00:06:29] Marcus Collins: It was so cool, and I fully agree with you. A few years ago, Fruit of the Loom, they do partnerships with musical acts like, Metallica, Kiss, Aerosmith, Seal's t-shirts. People got metallic on their, shirts. That's a licensing deal between fruit, the loos, and those musical acts.

And a few years back, fruit looms. Were looking at their book of business to see which. brand, likeness which artists l likeness was doing better than the others. So they can re-up those licenses and they found that the Ramones was outperforming Kiss, Metallica, Aerosmith. They're like, what's going on The Ramones little small little band.

Then they had like two albums out in the seventies, like, what's happening here? So they asked those fans, they said, you know, you must be a really big fan of the Ramones that you bought this t-shirt. They were like, Nah, I don't even know they're music. But the Ramones mean punk rock, and they want to be seen as punk rock, the meaning associated with the brand, that vessel of meaning that is brand.

People use it as an identity mark, not because of what it is, but because of who they are. I mean, the biggest brands that we know, the biggest artists that we know, they all transcend what they do and operate at a level of why they do it. In the words of Simon Sinek,

[00:07:43] Dan Runcie: This reminds me of those Iron Maiden t-shirts. You remember that era? Maybe it was like five, seven years ago when everybody was wearing Iron Maiden t-shirts. I don't know if they were really listened to the music, but I think it's that thing as well where they just wanna be seen like the type of person that would identify with that

[00:07:58] Marcus Collins: Of course not. Of course not. I mean, people are wearing, Red Bull t-shirts. That was a thing, is a way of signaling something about yourself. NASA t-shirts. Exactly. Like just signaling something about yourself. And really, that's all we're trying to do to try to peacock our way through the world signal who we are in hopes that we can find people who are like ourselves and we find connection because that's what we are, we're social animals by nature.

[00:08:21] Dan Runcie: And a lot of this, at least what we talked about so far, are consumer brands. This applies at the enterprise level as well. I think a company like McKinsey aligns perfectly. There is a status that you're able to send both internally within the organization and externally by hiring that firm, spending the seven figures for them to come and work on your project because of what you want to be able to say.

[00:08:45] Marcus Collins: To say, McKenzie is our agency, that's who does our strategy work, McKenzie, and we know this from being in business school, that people want McKenzie on their resume. Because of what McKenzie means, what it signifies, you know, there's a sociologist named Pierre Perdue, who talks about this idea of cultural capital that our consumption, the more conspicuous it is, the more we align, value from it.

There is embodied cultural capital. That is our skills, our knowledge, what we know, like, you know, if you go to the opera and, you know, the literature, you know, the Odyssey, you know the Homer, you know all that stuff. Then you have a amount of, value, of capital, of cultural capital.

And the idea is that if you were an equestrian growing up, that signals that you've come from wealth and your friends who were equestrians growing up signals that they come from wealth and who fr what friends, do you have friends like those and those friends open up doors for you for jobs? VC funding and the alike, right?

So that cultural capital that embodied cultural capital turns into financial capital. The same thing goes with objectified cultural capital, the things that we buy, the clothes that we wear, the cars that we drive. This a way of signaling who we are in the world in an effort to meet other people like ourselves, that open up door for financial capital.

The same thing goes for institutional cultural capital where I go to school, where I work, what fraternity I joined, whether I was in Jack and Jill, like these things signal who we are in the world that open up more financial economic opportunities for ourselves. So you're right. So it's not just, B2C as we typically think about it.

These are all the many ways that we signal who we are in the world, the companies we work for, the schools we went to, the institutions that we frequent. These are all consumption behavior to signal our identity. So that we might find people like ourselves that create more social and financial opportunities for ourselves.

[00:10:44] Dan Runcie: Are there certain industries or sectors that hitting that ideological level is extremely difficult or it's almost impossible? I think back to my own career experience. I've had internships at cable companies and airlines, and I think that there's challenges, especially just given the nature of their businesses, how consumers interact with them.

But even I think about companies in waste management and areas like that. Companies that could have strong brands and business businesses, but is there a ceiling of how high certain companies and certain industries can go because of the industry dynamics?

[00:11:19] Marcus Collins: I think that if a company defines itself by what it does, then yes, there is a ceiling. But if a company defines itself by what it believes, I think the possibilities are endless. Cuz even as you name off those companies, we look at them through the lens of their industry, their category. And they are defined by their category.

Oh, you have waste management services. So you are in waste management. You have an airline. So you are in the airline industry. you make microprocessors, so you're the micro processing industry. When you only define yourself by the product services or product goods you bring to the world, then that's the only opportunity you have.

But when you elevate beyond that, you say, we believe this. We just so happened to provide waste management services. Imagine if we said this is arbitrarily speaking. Imagine we said that we believe that a clean environment makes for. a better life. Let's just say that. I'm just make that up, right.

A clean environment makes for a better life, and that's why we have sanitation services, waste management services. Then we go, well, what else could be better if it were clean? Well, what if we cleaned up the oceans? We're no longer in the waste management business. We are in the cleaning oceans business.

Or, well, what if we cleaned up the internet? Mm. What if we went through the internet and found all the smut, all the whatever, the things that aren't as savory. Maybe for kids and we're going to clean the internet up. We're gonna create products to do that. We just so happen to do waste management.

We still happen to clean up oceans. We still happen to create software that cleans up the internet. But what we do that because we believe that a clean environment creates for better solutions. Again, I just riff that but the idea is that if you operate at that level, you are not defined by your category and what you do.

You're defined by your conviction and why you do it, and that is just Superman powerful. And then you bring in people who see the road the way you do.

[00:13:12] Dan Runcie: I think we just gave an entire industry. A market class and a playbook that they can use moving forward.

[00:13:19] Marcus Collins: That's right. We should of held onto that one.

[00:13:21] Dan Runcie: But you're right, because it also makes me think of insurance, and I know you worked with translation and one of their big accounts has been State Farm, and if you look at the product itself, the features of that product don't necessarily align on the surface of what you would think could be something that is something you would advertise in that way, but we look at the benefits. That's how you can think more broadly. We can get to Chris Paul versus Cliff Paul, and so many of the other memorable campaigns we've seen from State Farm.

[00:13:50] Marcus Collins: What's actually quite interesting about that and you're spot on, is that I don't think there's very many industries as commoditized as the insurance industry. They all use the same actuaries. All of them use the exact same actuaries, just some of them are more conservative than others, and they're willing to charge you a premium for their product.

And I suppose the way they, you know, get it, the job done at the end of the day is better than others. But according to the research, from when I was working in insurance, people only report their collisions, their calamities 25 to 35% of the time. So 65% of the time, at best, people aren't even reporting the accidents.

So the brand, the company never comes in to actually make good on their promise, right? We're just really hanging on there based on what this brand is all about. And State Farm exists because they believe that people should live life more confidently every day to help people live life more confidently every day.

This will happen to have 18,000 agents across the country to help people make better decisions. This will happen to have to cover your stuff and help provide financial services, but why they do it? To help people live life more confidently every day. And now you say, okay, so how might we do that?

Well, What does that mean for basketball? The NBA, one of their sponsorships? Where is actual statistic for helping people in the n NBA called the assist? Let's go after that. Now you have a creative platform to be a part of this institution that we call the NBA, but also another way of demonstrating why you exist, not what you do.

[00:15:26] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. Makes sense. Yeah. I mean, I think that's applicable for a number of industries here, and we're getting into insights and just how you perceive people. And one of the things that we're talking about is who are the best market researchers. You have this piece in the book, and you've talked about this before, about why comedians are actually some of the best market researchers out there.

Could you talk a little bit more about that?

[00:15:49] Marcus Collins: Yeah. Comedians are phenomenal because they just observe people. They observe us humans as the social actors that we are, as we navigate the phenomenal world that we live in, and they look at people and go, that's odd. You see what she did? Oh, and he did it too. And they did it. And they did it. Okay. This is a thing, and as they observe people act, they apply theory to describe what they saw, right?

They use theory to describe the socially phenomenal world that we live in, and then they say, okay, this is why it's happening. This is the underlying physics of why these people act the way they do, and then they tell it with a slant. They find an interesting way to communicate it such a way that when they get on stage and go, every time we go to the mall, you notice that you do this, we all go, oh my goodness, that's so me.

I totally do that. Of course you do, because they have used what we know is to be the best description of human behavior. Theory and applied it to something empirical that happens. The phenomenon that we take on, the chances of us understanding people are far higher when those two things are together and the chances of us saying something that's meaningful to them is far greater when we tell it with a slant.

And that's what good marketers do, mark, especially advertisers do. But market research, no one does it better than comedians. Full stop.

[00:17:12] Dan Runcie: And this gets at something else. I know you've talked about comedians are able to get at that intimacy level. They're actually interacting with people. They're seeing things, and they're not mistaking that for information. And I think that's one of the challenges. I know you've talked about how we have so much data.

There's so many companies that can easily just turn on Facebook ads, turn on Google ads, so you could see the profiles, but that doesn't necessarily give you that deep engagement to be able to understand beyond, and I feel like that's becoming a bit more and more of a challenge.

[00:17:44] Marcus Collins: Exactly, that's the paradox. More information, very little intimacy and comedians are, have always been intimate and marketers used to be intimate, but as we get more. Information, more data. We go, oh, I don't need to go spend time with people. I don't need to go talk to people because I have their search history.

I have their click history, I have their downloads. I have what they watch and what they listen to that describes who they are. It describes what they do. To get to who they are, we have to get closer. We need greater proximity to understand the underlying physics that govern, why they listen to trap music and why they watch, Succession, and why they consume what they consume, why they're going back into the nineties for fashion inspiration.

Why is that happening? We can observe it and say, oh, cool, that's a thing. That's a trend spotting, but you don't know what's going on until you get close to people. And this is what we have to do as marketers. And I would even argue that maybe this is what we need to be doing as a society. Just get a little closer to people and it's easy to look at someone and go, oh, they're crazy.

Because they operate by a different meaning system than we do, than different cultural characteristics than we do. But if we understand that the way we see the world is subjective, not objective, we go, oh, well my truth isn't, their truth doesn't mean that they're wrong. It just means it's just a little different.

And the closer I get to understanding how these people make, meaning, how they navigate the world. The more connected I probably feel to them, but as a marketer, the more likely I am to interact with them, to engage them, to get them to adopt behavior, which is the core function of our gig.

[00:19:18] Dan Runcie: This reminds me of Tyler Perry and what he's done with Tyler Perry Studios too. Of course, we all know the backstory. He was doing his plays. His plays were able to gain great traction. He ended up moving that into movies and his TV shows and everything he's done since. But even through all that success, he still was doing the plays.

That was his opportunity to be in front of the actual audiences, see how they reacted. He would make jokes different in the north versus the south versus the Midwest, and that's his way of, although he may not be a traditional comedian, he's still wearing all the hats and he's still providing humor through his content.

So I think that's one of the things that doesn't get talked about as much, about why he's been able to build this billion dollar empire.

[00:20:05] Marcus Collins: That's right and the best set up comedians, they still go to the Laugh factory. They still go to the hole in the wall to try new bits to sign, try new material. Oh, they laughed at that one, not this one. Okay. That one got in. Okay, cool. They build their set by workshopping it iteratively, right?

But marketers, that we hold onto it. We concoct it in the walls of our offices and then we release it to the world, prayerfully, hopefully in Shallah that it's gonna connect with someone. And it's like, well, yeah, there's some randomness that we can't control. Sure, we can't predict everything, but we can certainly increase the likelihood of connecting by just getting closer.

And the challenge is that there are perverse incentives that make getting closer a challenge. In that it takes time. It takes effort to build relationships, to talk to people, to see the world through their lenses. Where I've had, I got one quarter to turn my business around, man, whatever's the most efficient.

And that's what we rely on. And we wonder why we don't have strong relationships with our consumers because we look at consumers as machines, eat messages and crap cash, as opposed to real life human beings who navigate the world through their cultural lenses.

[00:21:18] Dan Runcie: Do you think this got worse since the pandemic?

[00:21:21] Marcus Collins: I would say in some ways, yes, in some ways, no. I think that there was a level of elasticity that when the pandemic hit, people were emailing everyone in their database saying, We care about. You we're thinking about you and then someone made that film where it took all the ads from all the marketers and they were saying all the same things.

And you go, this is nonsense. And marketers went, oh, they're right. So let's like be a little bit more human. And people got human like, like the murder of George Floyd. People were like, oh, there's a world that exists beyond my own. there are lenses that are translating the world that aren't my own.

Let me go see the world through other people's eyes. And for a moment, therefore, a brief moment we were getting in like some humanity in the world. But then once we got back to some normality, some normalcy, we snapped back into place. All right, cool. Let's use the data. Tells us, let's use it, this news to that.

I thought that the pandemic was an interesting time because people just became a bit more empathetic, right? We saw companies treat their employees a little bit differently. They're like, hey, gives people some grace. People need time. People need space. like people's needs. And then once we went back to quote unquote normal, assuming we're back to some kinda normality, get back to work, get back in the office, gonna razor sharper.

My battery lasts longer, my car goes faster. You aren't human, kind of a sad situation. and you would think that kind of inogen shock to the system will wake us up a little bit more. But unfortunately I think that there's some return to status quo a bit.

[00:22:53] Dan Runcie: Part of the challenge seemed like there was so much growth that so many software and tech companies had during the pandemic, given the nature of the services they offered, and because the pandemic and lockdowns limited, then from the in-person interactions, it could be very easy to think, okay, well we don't need to spend the money on those focus groups.

We don't need to spend the money on having our leadership team be out in the field to interact with people. Look at what we're able to do in the current ecosystem and we saw that there was just so much growth, especially from March, 2020 up until November, 2021. Things were booming, but then. World started to open back up and I feel like we're starting to see it more.

We're seeing more flexibility with what certain companies are doing in terms of their policies, whether they are letting people work from home. But I'm also seeing people wanting more in-person events, more engagement. There is an appetite for this, which I think should hopefully translate to an appetite to getting in-person time and more inpe intimacy with the people you're actually trying to serve.

[00:23:57] Marcus Collins: Well, what I think is awesome. Is that the technologies help facilitate ways to get closer, even if you can't in person, right? So, you know, we typically use ethnographic research for, when we're trying to study culture, right? Go into people's cultural contexts, observe them, interact with them, don't be, you know, sort of a tourist, be a part of the community.

But then there's netnographic research, which is the same thing in ethnography, just in online spaces. In fact, all of my academic work. All my academic research is typically done on Reddit like I'm observing these communities in their cultural contexts, practice their cultural subscription, and the beautiful part about Reddit, truly.

Now, I'm about to just nerd out for a moment here cause we could do that. Dan, is that Reddit has moderators that actually clinging the data for you. The moderators, they remove content that's not within the cultural conventions of the community, and then they'll get rid of people who post things that are outside of the norms of the community.

They are cleaning the data for us to observe this community operate and abide by its cultural characteristics for a researcher goodnight. It doesn't get any better than that. And we get to observe these people make meaning through their discourse in an unobtrusive way. And not only that, we get over the hurdle that people have about qualitative research, that the sample size is so small that we can see this in massive, massive, massive, occasions in my dissertation work, I had over 12 million lines of text. I'm watching people engage. And like I'm going through it and looking at how they make meaning, the language they use, the memes that they use, all these different texts that they use in an effort to communicate, to help make meaning, negotiate, construct meaning.

That's superman powerful. And if nothing else, this creates great opportunity for us, right? You could do interviews via Zoom. We did some ethnographic work, with folks in China when mainland China wasn't letting anyone in or out, so we couldn't even go be in the field. So we used Zoom. That was helpful, right?

The technology is meant to extend our human behaviors, right? It means to extend where we have human limitations. And if we don't take advantage of that, what are we doing really?

[00:26:15] Dan Runcie: I love that you mentioned Reddit there because it is a great lens into all of these subreddit. Each of them is a community that provides a reflection on what that broader community may be thinking, what they if, how they evaluate things and how they interact with each other. How do you, from an audience segmentation perspective, how do you look at the conversations that may happen within those communities and.

Get an idea of how that may extend to a broader community, knowing that Reddit itself does attract, maybe a more analytical or a deeper type of thought that may be slightly different in terms of the broader subreddit community represents.

[00:26:53] Marcus Collins: Sure. So, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So when we're going out in the field to Stu to study, see, I wanna study cost players. I'm gonna go to Comic-Con where the hardcore cost players are, because these are the people that are abiding by the cultural characteristics of what it means to be a cost player, right?

I'm gonna implant myself where they are and engage with them because oftentimes these are people that are like a part that are leading the construction of an a negotiation of meaning among the community. So Reddit, to your point, these are people who are hardcore into it. And maybe there's some bias in the fact that they're more inclined to be there than others, but they're representative of the community.

And what we do in all research truly, is that we look at a sample of the market and then we try to generalize the learnings, right? So we, we look at, social phenomenon and try to find generalizability of it. So my research, particularly my dissertation, I looked at how brands of branded products spread within a cultural context.

And I chose hip hop because hip hop's tentacles are. I mean, I'm talking to the guy who wrote the book on this, and you know this very well, how widespread hip hop's impact is in like, almost every industry. You could think of jewelry, high fashion, high tech, auto, sneakers, beauty, pharmaceuticals, everything, hip hiphop touches almost every single thing.

So I studied, how brands and branded products spread in hiphop culture. Specifically, this community looked at the mechanisms by which they make meaning and they evaluate and legitimate products as they spread, throughout, throughout the community. And then generalized that broadly on how communities make meaning.

Now, there'll be nuances that'll be different for rock climbers versus pickle ballers versus runners. But at its core, these are the processes by which things spread. So we try to get at some generalizability, especially when we have a wide swath of data to analyze.

[00:28:56] Dan Runcie: Makes sense, and I know we've talked about that dissertation before. it's powerful. I mean, and that's so much of what attracted me to this work as well. We see how hip hop is so pervasive in every corner that it touches. And that's only going to continue even if they may not call it hip hop in the future.

We still know where the origins come from, I say that because of just some trends I'm seeing in terms of how certain songs have been categorized and they've been talking about hip hop's decline. But we know what's there when we hear general music themes. This is the origination place. This is where it is, and this culture is now about to celebrate its 50th year in a few months, so it's just great.

[00:29:34] Marcus Collins: I mean, which is why Trapital is so important, man. Like it's, you need, cultural producers to preach the gospel and to quantify its impact on commerce in the economy, which is you're doing the good work.

[00:29:46] Dan Runcie: Thank you. Appreciate that. So before we close things out, let's talk a bit more about for the culture itself. You've been doing so much work in this space, you already had a great platform. What was the value add for you with this book, putting it out there, what does it do for you moving forward and how is that process?

[00:30:04] Marcus Collins: The hope for me personally, is to scale my impact like I believe that reasonable, my ideology, my belief, my conviction is that we're put in this world to serve God, and serve each other. That's what I believe, and the way I serve is by helping people realize the best version themselves operate the highest fidelity.

So the book is a way to scale my impact. As opposed to if you can't be in a Michigan classroom and you can't be a client at Widen Kennedy, or you can't be on my team at Widen Kennedy, here's a way to get some of, some of the thought leadership, right? But the other part, it's to helpfully raise, the industry that if we are using different language, A better Rosetta Stone talk about culture that will be better practitioners of culture and bear some responsibility to what we do. So we're not conquesting people's culture to sell more widgets, but we're actually contributing to it, realizing, that when we're using other people's cultural markers, we run the risk of what we know is appropriation.

If we do that without understanding the meaning that it's associated to those things. And once we understand that, we go, oh, okay. We're not just gonna pimp their thing out, we're gonna contribute to the community that actually has made this thing a thing. And the hope is that, the residuals from that, the reverberation from that, will make a little dent in the world and would've I would've done my part.

if that happens.

[00:31:30] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. Love it. Well, for people that are listening along and wanna get a copy of further culture themselves, where can they get it and where can they follow you?

[00:31:38] Marcus Collins: the book for the cultures available where all books are sold, particularly Amazon. you could find me at @marctothec, m a r c t o t h e c at all the social places, and marctothec.com/.

[00:31:50] Dan Runcie: Love it. Dr. Marcus Collins. Thank you.

[00:31:53] Dan Runcie Episode Outro: Thanks for watching Trapital on YouTube. If you want more where that came from, please subscribe to our YouTube channel so you can get all the latest updates. Or if you wanna hear the latest episodes, go ahead. Subscribe to the Trapital podcast. That's Trapital wherever you get podcasts. And if you wanna stay up to date with the latest insights, go ahead and subscribe to the Trapital newsletter.

That's Tapital.co And sign up there. Thanks so much.

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Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2037 no Rerun: How KevOnStage is Building His Comedy Flywheel https://www.trapital.com/podcast This week, I’m running back an interview with another one of the most popular episodes we ever did with KevOnStage from early 2022.  KevOnStage (Kevin Fredericks) is a comedian, producer, director, and entrepreneur behind KevOnStage studios.   Today's episode talks about how he built an independent brand that really paid off his hard work. He established a solid fan base, had millions of followers on social media, and monetized these platforms by producing his hilarious viral content, a total blast in the mainstream. Listen as we talk about what's going on in his business and his independent success, turning rejection into a massive opportunity to be where he is now. Episode Highlights [01:56] What KevOnStage is currently working on [04:49] His take on more black content going in the mainstream [06:53] KevOnStage’s motto, his marketing strategy, and business goals [11:57] What it’s like to have autonomy in his brand [19:08] His thoughts on artists knowing their audience and dealing with critics [21:30] What's the process from the stuff put out on socials versus onstage [25:24] How does he approach his game using different social platforms [32:38] What’s something beyond just the monetary gain that makes him want to continue to feel inspired to create content [35:13] His opinion on creators who are a one-platform-dominant [38:21] Where does his most lucrative income come from  [41:57] How he diversify his content to own the media and make his brand stand out [45:51] What would he like to be doing more of [51:28] KevOnStage’s new content to watch out for Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: KevOnStage Studios This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPT Kev: So, sometimes partnering is great, sometimes licensing is great, sometimes selling is great sometimes. A good business person takes the best deal for what they need to get done. (intro) Dan: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I’m your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  Today’s guest is KevOnStage, the comedian, producer, director, and entrepreneur behind KevOnStage Studios. I’ve been following KevOnStage for years now. I think he’s one of the funniest people on the internet so it was so good to have this conversation.  We talked about how he’s built his business and everything that he has done from how he creates content, how he thinks about what platforms he prioritizes, how that then provides insights for what he creates for his longer form content, what gets created from KevOnStage Studios, and, ultimately, the type of opportunities that he can offer for other creators and other entertainers that want to do, in many ways, largely the type of thing that he’s done.  And we talked about where his streaming service sits in this ecosystem of the Netflixes and the Hulus and, in a lot of ways, even though those streaming services may have their black voices tabs, that’s not quite the type of content that is what Kev is making so he’s really finding his niche, doubling down there, and how he uses the insights from that to infer what gets made, that is how many creators have been very successful so so much of that is very relatable.  This is also probably one of the interviews I’ve laughed in the most. He’s hilarious, like I said. This is a great conversation. I really hope you enjoy it. Here’s my chat with KevOnStage. (interview) Dan: All right, we got my guy KevOnStage here. Kev, you are one of the busiest people that I’d seen from 2021. Now we’re next year, man. How you feeling? Fresh year, how is it? Kev: I’m excited, man. We’ve got a lot of new things we’re working on. I’m really excited, man. It’s always fun to be at the beginning of a project, not knowing where it’s going or how far it may go and that’s kind of where I am now. All the things I’m like, “Oh, soon as I get back, soon as I get back, I’m gonna start working on that.” That time is here now so I’m really excited. Dan: That what’s up. Because I feel like for you, you got a few things that are already in motion that have been working well. Your content’s good. You got that machine going. But the Studio, I feel like that’s the really exciting thing that’s been growing. Kev: Listen, man, I’m working on my own flywheel, okay? Westbrook, they got their flywheel, fast IP, that was the best graphic I’ve ever seen that you made.  Dan: Oh, thank you.  Kev: I was like, “This is what I wanna do. I wanna do everything from Instagram videos to selling shows.” So, you know, and they all have their own value so that’s what’s exciting. I have the same amount of joy from making a funny reel like I posted of Angel falling in the challenge show, it was just — I spent 20 minutes on that, really just getting the fall right.  And then I came here, you know, I went on location scout right before I came here to this new show we’re working on and then this podcast, like they’re all exciting for different reasons so I’m trying to enjoy it all.  Dan: Yeah. I think the cool thing with that, you get to wear multiple hats and I know, with this, there’s a number of things that interest you about this, right? Like you enjoy comedy, you have that piece, but I also know that you like to put people on. You wanna use your platform to do that.  So I feel like you being able to wear each of those hats and do those things gives you that opportunity to provide all of that. Kev: Absolutely, man. I think there’s the old saying of the church, “We’re blessed to be a blessing,” and that’s kind of what I wanna do. People have given me opportunities, partnerships with, you know, people have helped lift me, and I just wanna pass along the same thing.  For me, my platform isn’t about me shining alone, you know what I mean? I tell my friends all the time, I want us all in the gated community. One things I used to do at all deaths that I found a lot of joy in was give people their first great reel or first time directing or whatever and I found that I had as much joy doing that as making somebody laugh.  And KevOnStage Studios is really just a more expensive version of that. So, we wanna give people their first time PA-ing or help you get into the wardrobe union or makeup union. It’s hard for black people to get into those places but we need black people in those spaces so that’s kind of what we’re working towards doing.  And then even simple things like our editor, one of our editors likes improv so it’s like, “Hey, you wanna be in an episode?” Things like that are great too because I want people to be able to scratch their own creative itch and that’s kind of what my passion is.  Dan: What I like about KevOnStage Studios is that, sure, I think there’s a lot of attention right now with, “Oh, there’s so much black content out there on your Netflix,” your this and this, but what you’re doing is like you’re saying, that’s true to an extent but it really isn’t true for a lot of the people that I think could have the opportunities to be put on in this era. Kev: Yeah. I was just watching Abbott Elementary this morning where I was shaving and I was just like, man, this show is amazing, and to see somebody like Quinta Brunson who — my first time seeing her was on Instagram. Her “Girl who’s never been on a nice date, a large, he must got — he got money. He could —” like from that to a network sitcom.  And even shows like South Side, which I don’t know their story as much, but the show is amazing, that’s great. But then there’s a lot of creators who have those similar ideas and absolutely no path to HBO, Comedy Central, ABC, Netflix.  Even me, like I’ve pitched to a lot of people and I had a lot of, “Uh-huh, we’ll circle back.” And, you know, that was 2018, ’19, you know, pandemic killed off anything I had going in Hollywood so I want to be that same network for people who can’t get all the way to Hollywood, you know, like here’s your chance to get to, you know, Hollywood adjacent — North Hollywood, if you will.  You’re right over the hill, you just — you know, it’s cheaper in North Hollywood. You know, there’s more taco trucks, you know? And your number 15 minutes of real Hollywood, you know, that’s what KevOnStage Studios, it’s the North Hollywood of Hollywood. We’re right there. We’re right there. But it’s a one-bedroom washer and dryer stacked, you know? Dan: Exactly.  Kev: That’s a leg up from having to go to a laundry mat.  Dan: Yes, that’s true. It’s true. Kev: Stackable’s good, man. I’ll take a stackable. Dan: Right, right. It’s one of those things, right? It’s like location and all that, you can’t pick everything with these things. You can pick two, and, Kev, you’re gonna give them two. Kev: Laundry is a huge plus. Location and a stackable, I’m like, “Bet, let’s do it.”  Dan: Well, I think the good thing with it is that — because I know in past interviews, you’ve talked about, hey, with this model, this is something you wanna provide the opportunity. But from a business perspective, I know that it’s not something that you necessarily need like a ton of subscribers to reach some point or you’re not trying to reach like Netflix scale necessarily, it’s something that can sit beside that.  But with that, I’m sure you also have goals from the business side as well as the impact side with the service. So, what does that look like from a streaming service perspective? Kev: Yeah, that’s a great, great question. It’s like — I heard this example somewhere. They’re like, you know, somebody’s saying you’re not gonna beat Walmart at selling everything at a low price, right? They’re gonna beat you if you’re starting out. What you can beat them at is selling a lot of one thing, right?  Because they sell so many things for a low price, they can’t sell a lot of any one thing so they’re gonna have, you know, maybe one or two black shaving kits, maybe Bevel and maybe one other thing. If you have a black beauty supply store, people are gonna be like, “Well, Walmart doesn’t have what I’m looking, here I can go get some weave, you know, a do rag, I can get Bevel, I can get seven other, I get essential oils, I can get Dixons,” you know? So that’s our motto, like we’re not — Netflix has an $8 billion content budget. They made Squid Game to Red Notice with the Rock — we can’t compete with that, right? But they don’t have black people learning how to play spades. They don’t have that video. They don’t have, you know, the Real Comedians Challenge Show, they don’t have things like that, right?  So we wanna over serve a population that is being served by Hollywood but it’s not the primary focus, you know what I mean? Right now, we’re in an area of, we’re sorry, black people Hollywood, like, man, we really discriminate against you guys for a long time and you guys caught us out on it.  So we’re reaping the benefits of all that, you know, time where we weren’t, you know, getting our just due. But even then, there’s still so many other shows that can’t be made to this audience and that’s kind of what we wanna fill. We wanna make stuff for black people who don’t see themselves on Netflix, you know?  This church show that we’re working on, you know, is for black people who grew up in the church from a point of view of somebody who also grew up in the church and worked in the church, like if you grew up in the church like me, you know, there’s never really been a true church show from people who grew up in there.  There’s people who attended but not people who like worked in ministry, and Netflix might not see the value in making a show like that and that’s where we come in, and we wanna serve that audience. All that content where they can’t get it on Netflix.  And also I’m not even saying you don’t have to have Netflix, like I ain’t gonna lie to you, Dan, I watch my Netflix, I watch Hulu, HBO Max, like as a consumer, there’s stuff that I wanna watch too, like Game of Thrones one through four.  Dan: Yeah, one through four. One through four. Kev: One through four. Insecure, like all those shows. Of course we’re not even here to say “Don’t watch Netflix” and “Boycott Netflix” like I won’t even ask you to do that because I’m not gonna do that. But, you know, sometimes you want a nice steak dinner at a five-star restaurant, sometimes you just want a taco truck, you know, and you can’t get that experience.  When you really want a street taco or the corn man selling elotes, you know, a big steak dinner is not gonna do it. So that’s all we wanna be, man. We just a little taco truck on the street, man, just pull up real quick, get you three little tacos, you know what I’m saying? Some Jarritos and a little elote and go on about your way. You’re not gonna bring your wife here to propose to her. But if you’re in between work, you know, this Kevin taco, that’s KevOnStage Studio, just a little street taco place on the side. Dan: Right. And then with Netflix too, that’s the place that has all the good ratings of the people that know what’s up. Kev: And that’s the thing. You know, somebody gotta tell you about this place. “Hey, man, you gotta go over there. Trust me.” And when you — and that’s kind of how we’re growing, right? We don’t have the marketing budget like Netflix, right? When Netflix came out, yet get three months free, a year free. They had billboards and buses in Times Square. We don’t have that. Our thing is like, “Yo, there’s this funny show on this network called KevOnStage Studios, you gotta check it out.” Or you see a funny clip on TikTok and you wanna see the rest of the video, that’s our marketing right now. Word of mouth, your boy telling you, your girl telling you, or you seeing a clip and you wanna see more. Dan: Right. I think I heard you made the analogy once of the Sally’s Beauty Supply as opposed to, you know, what you may see at the traditional place like a Walmart, right? And I think even with that, it’s like, you know, from a haircare perspective, you know what, yeah, Walmart may have that can of Sportin’ Waves but I may want something a little more serious if you wanna make sure the wave’s spinning, right? You gotta get something a little — Kev: Absolutely. They might just have Sportin’ Waves but they’re not gonna have Murray’s, they’re not gonna have Sulfur8, Just For Me, they might just have one thing. And that’s kind of, yeah, that’s exactly what we wanna do here, man, and we’re having a good time doing it. Dan: That’s great, man. That’s great. I think that, in a lot of ways, like we were saying before, that’s how you identify the elements of your flywheel and where everything sits and how you’re able to foster not just your platform but the other opportunities and what I think it does at the end of the day, it narrows in, okay, what is the KevOnStage brand? What does it stand for? And what type of opportunities you can create from that?  Because I feel like with you specifically, you’ve now kind of hit this mode where I know you mentioned that, you know, you were knocking on the door of many folks in Hollywood or anywhere else and they weren’t necessarily letting you in, but now I feel like you’re kind of at this stage where you are doing well for yourself given everything you’ve built up independently. You’re now able to leverage things. As you mentioned yourself, you got that Maserati, like you’re — like you’re showing from that perspective, right? But you got those things.  I’m curious, though, because I know that — and as you know, definitely you have broken down a lot of the levels of what creators are and the creator economy and all those things, at this stage, you really do have the autonomy if you wanted to, okay, at this stage, would I wanna ever do some type of partnership or deal with one of these bigger distributors that are always trying to offer comedians or creators like yourselves the serious bag,  but I’m curious from your stage right now, like is that something that would still entertain you? Like is that something that you would ever do? Kev: I thought about it and it depends and I’ll tell you why. One of the best parts about being at KevOnStage Studios and not having to answer to a network is not having to answer to a network. If I wanna make a show, if I wanna cast whoever, no name or whatever, I don’t have to have anybody else say yes, you know, or no, right? One thing is, you know, I learned when I shot my first pilot that a network paid for, when they pay for it, what they say goes, right? So in this instance, they were like, “Take this joke out and this joke out and this joke out,” during the notes process and then when we shot it,  they’re like, “This isn’t funny. This is not landing. We don’t think black people are gonna get this” so we took all that stuff out, even though we were fighting for it, at the end of the day, they won because we were small and we didn’t have as much power in the room,  and at the end of the day, they passed on it because they said it wasn’t funny enough. We were like, “Well, you took everything funny out. How could it be funny?” So, you know, when you’re first starting out, the network has all the power because I’m not Denzel or Shonda Rhimes. If I got an opportunity, they’re gonna tell me what it is, and fight as I may, it’s gonna be what they say.  But here, we can make what we want to make and I think that autonomy is very freeing and it allows me to make what I know is good and funny. Like one of the things that I pride myself on is knowing my audience and what they will like and all that stuff.  And, you know, even when I do like brand deals, you know, especially early on, I would have less power and I would have to basically say whatever the brand said and it would come out corny, and I’d be like my audience would hate it and they could smell the fakeness from a mile away.  As I’ve grown. I’ve been like, “Hey, I’m gonna tell you right now that’s not gonna work. Trust me, let me do it this way and it always goes over better.” So, in that instance, I love the autonomy.  However, if we were able to partner with someone, it allows us to make things at a greater scale and provide more opportunities for other people and do things a lot easier. You know, everything we do now, we gotta figure it out, you know, when your mom came home, the kitchen bare, the cupboard’s bare, she’s like, okay, we got two chicken thighs, some corn, you know, some breadcrumbs, make something work. That’s where we’re at, you know what I’m saying?  At the end of the day, you’re like, “Hey, low key, that was kind of fire for what we had,” but you’d also love to just go to the grocery store and get everything you want. So, right now, I’m loving the freedom, but as we grow, I wouldn’t say no to an opportunity to do more and maybe employ more people for certain projects.  I don’t think there’s ever a world where everything I do, I answer to somebody. I always want to be able to create something that I want to create without having to answer to anybody. But, you know, if Warner Brothers said, “Kev, we’re gonna offer 140 million to develop some stuff,” well, yes. Yes, I would — I’ll take a little 140 mil, yeah. Dan: Right, right. And that’s the thing, right? It’s like you have the clear strategy and from an overall perspective, it sounds like, hey, I know that overall deals are the wave, that’s not necessarily what I’m looking for. However, if that number is right, I’m not gonna not have the conversation. We’re going to talk about it Kev: Absolutely — like look what Tyler Perry did, right? And I’ve watched his career and tried to mimic it to the best of my ability, which I haven’t done that well yet. But, you know, still working. But, you know, he leveraged the early Lionsgate deals into his own pocket, like, you know, he partnered with them and they were able to finance those movies and he did X, Y, Z, boom, boom. And then the capital that he got from that, he was able to finance his own shows.  So sometimes, partnering is great sometimes, licensing is great sometimes, selling is great sometimes. A good business person takes the best deal for what they need to get done, right? So I wouldn’t say that, you know, part of our business model is if I can make a show, you know, at our margins and I can license it to you in the first window, I can make a great margin there and now I’ve done two things,  I’ve made the show and I made the show I want and I might, you know, right now, there’s a lot of, you know, places that have more distribution than we do  so if you wanna take it off our hands, we made our money back and you wanna, you know, stream it, then you’ve just introduced a lot more people to KevOnStage Studios and they can come back to the app and watch the other stuff we’ve made.  So that’s definitely part of our plan and that would help us make more shows. So even if we sold that one and they own the rights to it, I wouldn’t cry because we can make eight more shows with what we sold that one for.  So it’s about making the right business, you know, choice at the right time and not being like, “I wanna own it all,” like, I mean, obviously, I wanna own it all but that also comes with its own risks, which means you have to finance it all. And if it sucks, you’ve lost everything, you know? Everything you spent.  So that’s a risk that you don’t want to have to take every time, you know? Sometimes, you wanna take it when it’s near and dear to your heart, but not — every time? You wanna reach into your own pocket every time? You know? Not every time. So, yeah, we’re always keeping our options open to the right partnership whenever that may come. Dan: Yeah, I think that’s the healthy and best way to look at it, because as both of us, people that spent a lot of time on Twitter, we know how big — everyone wants to own everything, right? But until you’re actually in it, you don’t realize how much nuance there is with all of that and I really look at these things as a spectrum, as you do, and I think the best people have a mix of both of these things.  And like you said, I know that, you know, you mentioned Tyler Perry as a model, the same way that you know how to create this content and do it at a way it’s affordable, that’s essentially what he did with like Meet the Browns, right? Boom, let me go sell this to TBS and now we got cable distribution for however many years, you know, he’s been doing that. Kev: Absolutely, and hardly anybody in Hollywood could shoot at the rate he shoots at. So his margins are much lower than a traditional network or even cable. So I mean, you know, Tyler, you see articles, they shot 20 episodes in six days — Dan: Wild. Kev: — nobody would even attempt that, you know? And BET was like, yeah, we’ll take more. We’ll take whatever you got. So, for him, he knows his audience, he knows his business model, he knows it works. Critics don’t stop what he’s doing. And the numbers reflect that he’s doing the right thing. People criticize, come what may, but when them numbers come out, people are watching.  So that’s one thing I’ve been thinking a lot about is like, especially if you’re on Twitter a lot, everything sucks, everybody hates everything, there’s nothing good, everybody’s wrong. But at the end of the day, somebody is watching that.  So, you know, we’d be on Twitter trashing everything but somebody likes that show and they’re watching it weekly. So, Tyler’s learned to focus on those people who are enjoying it and tuning out people who don’t enjoy because they’re not — they don’t help his plan and that’s kind of what we’re doing here.  Like we’re not trying to make everything for everybody. We’re trying to make a lot of stuff for the people who want to watch it. And then you grow, the same thing Tyler did, you have your base, you cater to that base, and you grow that base. Dan: Yep.  Kev: And if you do that, I mean, that’s tried and true. Like we were talking about earlier, you don’t need a lot of followers, you don’t need a whole bunch of people. You need people who are really excited and who want to come to your live show and buy a t-shirt, to support your Patreon, and get your app, you know?  There’s so many creators with millions of followers but not a lot of active fans so when they try to go on tour or sell a t-shirt, people are like, “No, man, we don’t — we’re not — you know, post the thing on Instagram I like.”  Dan: Right. Kev: But I wanna do this. No, no, no. So I learned a long time ago, it’s better to have 500 really active fans than 5 million people who kinda like your stuff. Dan: Definitely. And I feel like, with you, you’ve been able to see that in real life, like you are going on tour, you’re seeing these people in person, you’re getting all those reactions too.  And you mentioned earlier about just insights and you being able to see what works and what doesn’t and I wonder, how much of that is based on just the feeling of, “Okay, this piece or this post really took off and then I’m gonna try to incorporate that into something,” or how much of it is also, you know, data driven as well where you’re looking at things, you know, precisely and you’re like, “Okay, like if I’m spending this much time here,” what’s that process like, you know, from the stuff you put out on socials versus what you may do on stage? Kev: That’s a great question. For socials, the one thing I’ve learned about the internet is I don’t know anything about the internet. What goes viral? What works? Man? My best TikTok is me holding my son’s dog and talking about how black people — Dan: Oh, does your dog know if you’re black?  Kev: Does your dog know you’re black? If you’re Mexican, does your dog know you’re Mexican? If you’re white, does your dog know you’re white? That didn’t take a lot of thought. I literally was at home and he was about to get into something, I was like, and then I was like, I wonder if he knows that means stop in black, you know what I mean? And then I wondered if a Mexican family has their own version of that. I just threw that up and it had — it’s got like 2.6 million views on TikTok. That is not the funniest video, it’s not the most relatable, it didn’t even do that well on Instagram or Twitter or whatever. I just throw it up against the wall. I let the internet decide what’s funny or not and I know some things tend to do well more than others.  Any culture messing with black food in a way that’s not traditional, you mess with macaroni and cheese, it’s gonna get a lot of views, right? But, you know, I was making a lot of those food videos and then people were just — like I was getting every food video so I was like, okay, as a creator, even if it does get a lot of views, I don’t wanna be the food guy and I don’t wanna keep making the same video.  So, part of my strategy is I make something that is funny, make something that’s relatable, or make something that I just think is funny. Or if I got nothing of that, then I’ll share another creator who’s funny. There’s been some days where I’m like, “Man, I don’t feel funny today,” and I’ll see somebody else’s video, I’ll be like, well, let me just share their stuff because there’s nothing I can do that’s as funny as this.  So, you know, and I share and tag them and then I’m like, even if I didn’t make something funny, I fulfilled my promise to introduce you to new creators. So that’s kind of my strategy. And I just also am very consistent. Even if I don’t think the video’s great, I still post it because what’s great to me and what’s great to somebody else is very different.  I’ve had a lot of videos that I think they’re hilarious that did absolutely nothing. And a lot of them, like my dog video that I didn’t think nothing of and just threw up, that went viral. Like I made this waffle house video probably four or five years ago, I mean, I was on my way to work, I was like, you know, I saw this article, it said Waffle House is dirty. And I’m just like nobody who eats at Waffle House cares about that.  Dan: Right. Kev: We know. That video went stupid viral. I mean crazy. And I didn’t even — it took less than 5 minutes total. Shoot, edit, post. And I did it — I wouldn’t advise this but I shot the whole thing on the freeway. I was driving to work, I always had my phone in my rearview mirror thing, hit record, said what I had to say, turned it off. When I got out of my car, I edited it, put the article next while I was walking to work. That thing went crazy.  Didn’t think nothing of it. Just threw it up and so many people, that’s how they got introduced to me. So, you know, what do I know? I’ve been doing this 10 years now pretty consistently. So many things went viral that I would have never done. And, you know, that’s the nature of the internet. Dan: Right, it’s like you know that there’s generally a type of content you put out that’s going to work, you put it out there and you just know that something’s gonna hit. It may not always be what you think is gonna hit, but you put it out there, for sure. Kev: Absolutely, man. Let the people decide what’s fun. I mean, I did one video where I was yelling at my son, I use the term loosely, ’cause he had gotten good grades. It did like 7 million views on Twitter, 6, 7 million views, and I was just like, kids, puppies, they’re gonna work every time.  So, you know, I try to exploit my dog while he’s still small. I don’t exploit my children as much. But the dog, he don’t even know how many videos. He does well. He’s earning his keep in the Fredericks household.  Dan: One of the things I also, you know, like about how you approach your game is that you look at each social platform differently and you also know how to move to things, right? Like you know that Twitter is quick. You’re gonna — that’s gonna be the one that’s most current about things.  But I know you’ve also put a lot more time into TikTok and just given, I think we saw the recent stats that TikTok, people spending more time on that now than Google, you know, you gotta be early on a lot of these platforms to rise.  But there’s also things like Clubhouse, for instance, where, you know, I think things rose and then, you know, it dipped and I’m curious, how do you approach that? Like do you know that there’s certain ones where you’re like, “Okay, there’s something here, let me double down here,” like what’s your method for that type of thing? Kev: You have a lot of good questions, man. This is why you — you should do a podcast, maybe a newsletter as well about hip hop and entertainment. What I try to do, one of my, you know, things that I’ve noticed works well is using a platform how that platform was designed to be used.  So Twitter, the best thing is tweeting, like writing, like writing out funny tweets, whether you’re trending, relatable, whatever. I post my videos — the only reason I post my videos on Twitter is because people would rip my videos and post — because videos didn’t do well on Twitter for me for a long time and the only reason I posted on there now is because people would rip my videos and post them and they’d do better on Twitter than I ever would have thought, so I was like, well, nobody’s gonna be getting them if I’m not gonna get them. But as far as TikTok, I always try what’s new incoming. I’ve tried, I mean, Vine. You want to talk about the worst creator ever on Vine? Kevin — I mean, I couldn’t get Vine to work for nothing.  I made a Vine one time, Dan, and I’m lucky you can’t find it. And I was like making toast and I put a piece of bread in the oven and then the Vine cut and I had like half a second left and I was like, “Burnt,” and it was just a piece of burnt bread. And I was like, I don’t — I’m gonna stop doing this. This is literally the worst Vine ever.  I tried Socialcam, Periscope, Clubhouse, spaces, Fleets, Stories, Snapchat. I’ve tried everything. Part of it for me is like, let’s talk about TikTok, for example. TikTok was a new — there were so many fun ways to edit on there, editing was more seamless, they had all those backgrounds. So, as a creator, it was just fresh.  But anytime children are using something, the user base is gonna grow. And I think TikTok used to be Musical.ly and I remember my niece was on Musical.ly a long time ago so my strategy is always dip my toes in the water, see what works, find out how that platform works specifically.  I realized what I learned about TikTok is you gotta be even quicker than other places on TikTok. I’m talking about people are scrolling like almost like this. You got like maybe 6, 7 seconds on Instagram, you got like 2.3 on TikTok and you can buy 3 seconds if you put the caption.  It took me a long time to realize you had to write the caption on the video because people are not looking down to, I believe it’s the left to see what you’re saying so you gotta figure out, stop their system for one second and say when this be like or baby like or whatever. That’s step one and now you might have their attention.  Using whatever trend is popping or whatever music is popping, now that’s step two. Now, you got them for 7, 8 seconds, now you may have a chance. But almost all of these platforms are, “Is it funny? Is it entertaining? Is it educational? Or is it relatable?” If you’re doing one of those of the four, you’ll be better off, but like I was a long winded person so I was on Periscope early and I stayed for a long time and I have so many of the people who are now on the Stage Crew is what we call our group of fans are —  I used to go on Periscope every day while I drove to work. I was stuck in traffic for an hour and a half, I’d be on Periscope for an hour. And I just chopped it up. I’ve seen video ideas. And so many people loved it and they stuck with me for a long time. And another thing I do, I know I’m just rambling, I test out concepts on platforms, right?  So I’ll tweet something and if that tweet does numbers, then I’ll be like, “Bet, I’ll make a video of that.” Like, for example, Uberfacts tweeted, “What’s —” This is a trend maybe last week. Uberfacts tweeted, “What’s a company’s secret you can spill now that you don’t work there anymore?” and I was like, oh, I worked at the bank.  I quote tweeted, “The bank does actually overdraw you on purpose,” like a lot of people used to accuse us of that and we would have to lie but they actually do it on purpose. It had like 26,000 retweets so I’m like, okay, that’s great, that means people are interested. Now let me screenshot that, go to TikTok, and make the talking version of that.  And then I put that video on TikTok, did well. Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, did well. And then a couple of days later, I put the video version of a tweet that went viral right back on Twitter with my own tweet and it also went well.  And I’ll do that all the time. If I’m not sure video work, I’ll post it on my stories and I’ll check the engagement. If I get over 50 shares or 100 shares, I’m like, “Oh, I’ll take that off and put it on the main grid.” Sometimes I’ll make a full video. So I’m kinda like seeding out content and seeing what people respond to and then deciding if I wanna make a full video after that.  I have to do that now because I’m doing other projects. I used to just scour the internet for videos all day but because we’re making stuff for the app and stuff, I don’t have as much time so I’m kinda like throwing stuff against the wall, seeing what works, and then making full versions of that.  And that’s kinda how I continue making content consistently while I’m really spending more time creating long-form content, where I’m on set 10, 12 hours a day. I just don’t have the time to be on the internet like I usually was so I’ve gotta like be more strategic about doing it. Dan: That’s your fastlane IP model right there. You just broke it down. Kev: Yeah. Absolutely, man. I’m just always moving in there. And my hope, one day, I wanna be like — do you remember, DC Young Fly early? He used roasting to rise him to fame and then he leveraged that into other stuff. Now he can use social media just to remind you of what he’s doing.  One day, I’ll be able to be like, “Oh, my social media is just to remind you of what’s coming and going.” Or like Kevin Hart, like he’ll still come on every once in a while and remind you he’s hilarious on social media but he doesn’t need it as a vehicle as much as he used to.  That’s my goal, when I can go a week or a month without making something funny, and people still are checking in. But I’m probably a little ways away from that. Dan: What do you think that would look like to get there? Like is there a particular number or do you feel like it’s like a feeling of where you are in your career? Kev: I think — what it really will probably be is when I’m shooting so many things that take up my full day, when I’m shooting 10, 12 hours on set, it’s really hard to make a great internet video that day, because I’m not on the internet because I’m shooting. When I’m on break, I might be scanning but, you know, the lunch on set is 30 minutes, if that, feels like.  By the time you sit down and eat and then you’re back on set for 6 hours. If I was doing that for three months, it’d be tough to make the same amount of content that I’m making. So if I was basically doing those kinds of projects back to back, then I know my social media will suffer in the sense of creating at the pace I usually did.  My only hope is that the monetary benefit from my other projects will, you know, keep me afloat. I mean, obviously, I don’t make crazy money, well, relative, from the actual platform, it’s all about leveraging them to make money off the platform. But, you know, we still get paid from Tik—  I mean, not TikTok, I mean, technically TikTok but I make no money off that. Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube so my hope is that I’ve got so many projects that I’m making, either from my own distribution service or for somebody else or a partner or something we’ve sold, that I’m like, “Man, I’m making too many things, I don’t have time to like see what the TikTok trend is.” But, honestly, Dan, I like making videos so much. If I was on my lunch break, scanning through TikTok, I will make a video, because it doesn’t take me that long. My best skill isn’t funny, isn’t being hard working, it’s efficiency. When I’m inspired, I can download, shoot, and post in no time.  And TikTok, God bless them, so happy you can just click download for most videos. Don’t make me go through screen recording and down— that’s too much. You want people to share these anyway, make it easy. So, I can do a whole thing in less than 5 minutes so as long as I got 5 minutes, I’ll probably make something. Dan: Yeah. I feel like that’s what drives it at the end of the day, right? Like there has to be something beyond just the monetary gain to make you wanna continue to feel inspired to create and that’s great that you have that still with the videos.  I mean, I definitely sense that from the joy and passion that you share out of it, but I think for a lot of people that do create content on the internet and then that is the awareness they build to sell elsewhere, they ideally would just love to sell the other thing but the internet feels like this thing that they have to do.  So the fact that you don’t feel that, I mean, I’m sure it’s still exhausting, for sure. But the fact that you don’t feel that naturally, I think, is what helps that longevity. Kev: Absolutely. I think, you know, we all deal with like burnout or not feeling funny or feeling like I’m never gonna come up with any other idea. But I see the value in using these platforms but also leveraging them to your own stuff, like being an early YouTube creator when adpocalypse happened and Logan Paul did that suicide forest thing and everybody’s monetization was punished, that’s the first time I was like, “Oh, snap. I didn’t even have nothing to do with this. I never been to Japan. I would never. Why am I getting punished?” That’s the first time I was like, “I can’t rely on these platforms,” and then when Vine came and went, even though I sucked at Vine, there was a lot of people where they depended on Vine and, luckily, most of the creators who were big leveraged that to Snapchat or Instagram or YouTube but some of them never even got close to the heights that they had on Vine.  And the same thing happened on Instagram or TikTok or whatever. You know, a lot of people are one platform dominant, killing it on TikTok but nowhere else big. I would rather be five platforms doing okay than one platform dominant because now I can go from TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, into my own platform, Patreon, which is fantastic. It’s very important to what we do here. If I only had Patreon, I’d be okay.  So, you know, I’ve kind of like made my exit strategy because the Internet changes too quick, you know? One day it’s popping — Clubhouse, man, people were — it was the thing for like 5 months and then everybody — it felt like everybody was just like, “Nah,” like one day, and it’s still there, it still have great stuff going on there, but during the pandemic, man, it launched — or not launched but it popped at a perfect time when everybody was at home.  Dan: Right.  Kev: But then people just got sick of people talking and Facebook came up with their own one and Twitter came up with their own one and then Clubhouse didn’t have, you know, that exclusive thing anymore. I mean, that’s — you talk about a quick pivot.  Dan: Yeah. Kev: You know, Clubhouse, how quickly Twitter jumped on that, that was fast. It took Instagram a long time to copy Snapchat.  Dan: Yeah, and — Kev: It took Twitter, it felt like 2 months before they had — Dan: Yeah, Spaces was quick. Kev: I was like, Jesus, and the thing that Facebook did really well is kind of what Twitter did too. They said, “We’re not gonna beat Snapchat’s market share, and we don’t have to. All we need to do is slow their growth and get somebody who was never gonna go to Snapchat to do what they would have done on Instagram.” My wife is that person. She never went on Snapchat ever. But they took that idea and that, you know, Stories, put it in Instagram, and she was like, “Oh, I’ll do this.” And I was like, “Girl, I’ve been telling you about Snapchat.” She was like, “I’m not downloading no more apps.” And that’s the same thing. So you — that’s why I never wanna be one platform dominant because the winds, they blow and change too quickly and you could be caught in the cold, you know? Like YouTube, man, YouTube decided on a whim, it felt like, family content, if it looks like it’s geared towards kids, you’re not gonna be able to monetize that.  People went from making hundreds of thousands of dollars a month to zero. When they decided they didn’t want pranks anymore, people went from making 50 grand, 150 grand a month to like literally zero, I’m not even exag— I know people who had to give up their house in the Hollywood Hills when YouTube was like, “We’re not doing that no more.” And that’s when I was like, “Oh, this is too dangerous to be only on one platform.” You gotta use them all but you also have to have an exit strategy. To me, you know? Everybody doesn’t have to do that but, to me, you gotta have an exit strategy. Dan: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. And I think the way you structured it makes sense too. I mean, yeah, you mentioned you’re still getting some income from those platforms but the majority is outside of it.  And I’m curious, what do your splits and breakdowns look like from a percentage perspective of, you know, like how much does come from those platforms versus how much comes from your other content or your stand-up or any of the other ticketed type of things? Kev: So, the most lucrative by a mile is live events. Touring, live events is the most lucrative. That’s why when the pandemic happened, I was like, “Oh my God,” because that — before the pandemic, that was foolproof. As long as people wanted to come see you, you will be able to eat forever, and then all of a sudden, no.  So, for me, the most important thing is touring. The second most important thing probably is my Patreon, because that’s a group of people who really believe in what we’re doing here and support me and if I lost my other platforms, they would still be there.  Outside of that, YouTube and Facebook, YouTube was really consistent monetarily. Facebook can be a blow up, for me at least, a blow up and then nothing. You have some months where it’s, you know, 2 grand and some months it could be 10 grand, you know what I mean?  So it’s like, you really can’t build a business off of that, you know, wave of, you know, unpredictability. But for me, I probably say 60 percent is live, 40 percent is — or I’m sorry, 20 percent is Patreon, and the other is like podcasting. Podcasting can be really lucrative with the ad revenue. It’s also platform agnostic. Like I don’t need to be monetized on YouTube because I’m monetized through the ads that are baked into the podcast, you know?  So, for me, those are what I focus on and everything else is gravy. Whatever Instagram pays me, gravy. Whatever Facebook pays me, gravy. Whatever YouTube pays me, gravy. And those are the things I have the least amount of control over anyway so, yeah. Dan: That makes sense, yeah, and I think like that split too, honestly sounds like what it’s like for a lot of artists as well. I mean, so much comes from live performances, more than half for most of them, but that other chunk, you know, whether it’s through their branded partnership or any of their influencer revenue that they may have but also what they get actually selling their music through streaming or the publishing revenue that comes in.  So there’s definitely a ton of similarities there, which is why I like the model of what you all, and what you specifically have done to build it up. But I think the difference though is that I probably see a little bit more creativity on average from some of the more successful independent comedians than maybe some of the more, you know, successful artists. I feel like there’s been more of like a standard path but whether it’s you or some of the others that have, you know, risen up, especially in the past 5 to 7 years, there’s definitely, you know, I think a bit more variety and, you know, especially whether they’re building their own studios or they’re trying to do a few more creative brand partnerships and deals, I’ve always been fascinated with that piece about how comedians and stand-ups are able to monetize and use the internet. Kev: Absolutely, and I think like look at any 85 South, man, like they have — their live event is huge. And then they can just put that exact video on YouTube or their app and they sell merch and even if they did nothing else but live shows and merch, they’d probably be okay, but now, they’re building their own app out. It’s already out there, the Channel 8, and they’re expanding that. So, you know, another smart thing, like let me diversify what we’re doing and own the media aspect of it. But, for me, that’s merch and brand deals like, to me, it’s hard to be good at everything, you know what I mean? So I don’t try to be.  I’m like merch, I’ll focus on the road, if I have a great idea, but it’s not my strong suit, because fashion and design aren’t my strong suits so I’ll just really make stuff for the Stage Crew who loves it. And I’ll focus on live events, video content, and podcasting and I’ll be strong there.  I mean, you got people like Kountry Wayne who like master of Facebook and Instagram, like he knows the amount, you gotta be at least 3 minutes to get really paid. His sketches are 3:01. They’re gonna be over 3. On Instagram, they start really quick so he’s mastered that and he’s also on the road.  So everybody has their skill set and it’s kinda like, to me, basketball players, like LeBron’s the greatest player to me, ever, and he’s good at a lot of different things. Steph is the best shooter ever so he doesn’t have to be a rebounder like LeBron because he’s gonna shoot threes from the logo so you won’t be able to guard him.  And that’s kinda how I think of creators, like very few people are as well rounded as LeBron but you can have a long career being really good at one or two things and that’s fine too. Dan: Yeah. And as long as the platforms that are there are still aligned to like where your skill set is the better. Kev: Yeah. Dan: Because it’s one of those things where Steph also was really good at something that he was able to set a trend with and, you know, just gotten more and more favorite too as the game went on. But it’s like if you’re really good at, you know, like that Charles Oakley, you know, old school right? This next game, you might not have as long of a career is you may have had in ’93. Kev: That’s a fantastic point. Charles Oakley wouldn’t know what to do in this game, like he’s still gonna be big and strong but he’s gonna be guarding Luka or Kevin Durant and they shooting from three, they’re driving around, the game has changed so that’s a good point as well like the game changes so you have to be able to, you know, change with the game. The internet changes.  The same thing with comedy, like what was funny and tweetable 10 years ago isn’t funny or tweetable this year, and I’m not one of those who complains about cancel culture. As a comedian, our job is to know where the line is. Know what society thinks is funny and stay there and not to be like, “Well, this was funny 12 years ago.”  Yeah, The Nutty Professor was hilarious before but it wouldn’t be as funny if it was made now. People would call it fat phobic or whatever. But if you watched it then, it was great, you know what I’m saying? Pepé Le Pew, hilarious as a kid. Now you’re like, “Yo, what’s was he on, man? Where’s the consent? Leave her alone, man. Let her go,” you know? So I think comedy and everything is similar. Everything is changing. Fashion, language, music, all of that stuff. So, you know, as a creator, you have to be aware of that change or you get left behind. Dan: Yeah. And to bring it full circle, what you brought up with Vine is a great example of this. You yourself may not have been the most successful on that platform, like you said, but there are many people who had some of the most popular Vines that were like winning and spread everywhere. And, unfortunately, I just haven’t seen them as much because there’s something about that 6-second storytelling that they did so well with that just didn’t translate as well to where things are right now. Kev: Absolutely. 100 percent. That’s what I was saying, like some people translated but for some people, that was it. They never reached the heights they had on Vine ever again, you know? And some of the same trends on Vine probably would work on TikTok but not exactly.  So, you know, you gotta get in where you fit in and fit for as long as you can. And then, as the world changes, you gotta fit there too. And that’s, to me, the only way to survive. Dan: Definitely. So, for you, just because you are wearing, as we talked about, all these different hats, all these different roles, 5 years from now, 10 years from now, of course, we don’t know where things are going, but in the ideal scenario, what would you like to be doing more of or what would you like to be doing less of? Kev: More of helping other creators create their content. That’s actually one of the things we wanna do at KevOnStage Studios. It’s the hardest part though. Much harder than I realized, you know, to even maybe make somebody else’s show, to even go through the legal process of trying to make it is already expensive.  So I found that that part was a lot harder than I realized. If somebody comes in and is like, “Yeah, whatever deal is fine,” it’s very easy. If somebody is like, “I’ve got these ideas and stuff,” talking to their lawyer, our lawyer, it’s tough. And to do development, you need somebody who can focus on that, you need the resources for legal, you need the production staff to be able to go and make that.  So I would hope that we could grow enough to be making more of stuff for other creators and creating those opportunities. Right now, we’re kind of focusing on building the foundation with the team we have. But in order to do that, we’d have to scale out a little bit so that would be our goal. I would also love to be making independent movies. That’s always been a dream of mine. I just love the experience of movie, either in theaters or at home, I don’t care. I’m not like one of those creators, like, “It’s got to be in a movie or it ain’t real,” like I was poor so we couldn’t go to the actual movies that much so all my dreams and memories are watching them at home.  So I don’t care if you’re watching it on your phone or TV or whatever, but I’d love to be doing those two things, if nothing else. Creating content with others and then creating movies and creating stuff that I would love to create and hopefully distributing it to a lot of people.  The one thing about the KevOnStage Studios app right now, it’s still very small so, you know, to the viewer, that’s fantastic, but the other streamers and distribution sites, they have a lot more access. If I tell you to go watch a show on Netflix, the chances of you having Netflix are very high. Or HBO Max, something like that.  If somebody tells you to go watch something on KevOnStage Studios, the chances of you already having that app are not as high as you having Netflix. So our goal, our hope would be that, “Oh, yeah, man, I’m gonna check that out. I didn’t even know we had that.” But you gotta have the show that breaks through.  Like if you think about Apple TV, as much money as they have, people didn’t really click in by and large until Ted Lasso. Like I watched See, they had a lot of stuff. Nobody cared, by and large, until Ted Lasso.  So even — and they have trillion dollars in cash. People were like, meh, you know what I’m saying? So it’s not just unique to what we’re doing, it’s a lot of places that struggle. Peacock and Quibi. Quibi had all the money in the world, access to every A-list star in the world, people were like meh, so it’s not easy, man. It is not easy.  It’s not even unique to being small. It’s just not an easy business to be in. So I would just hope to still be here, in fact. Low key, to still be able to do this for a living in 5 years, I will be happy with just that. Dan: No, man, I think you will. And I mean, I’m not just saying that as someone that’s been a fan of your content following you for a while. I mean — Kev: Thank you, thank you.  Dan: I really do look at you as one of the success stories when we think about this era of the Internet and what creators were able to do in this phase. I feel like we’ve seen folks in, you know, past eras and eras before that and the Internet has always been so nascent but I think your focus and consistency. Wait, which one? Kev: I really don’t know. Nascent, what’s that? Dan: Oh, in terms of like just being early on a trend and just being, you know, like quick with it. Like I think that, you know, for you, oh, man, lost my train of thought — Kev: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you. Dan: No, no. Kev: When people use a word that I don’t know, I always ask because then I’ll be like, you know, “That was nascent,” and then people would be like, “What did that mean?” Oh, you know, what it means is early on to the trends and whatnot, you know what I’m saying? So I didn’t mean to get you off track but I was — that’s a good word that I don’t know so I had to ask you real quick. I could have Googled it later but — Dan: Oh, no, no. I appreciate that. I know, people appreciate this too, just from like, you know, the conversation, for sure. No. So, normally, some of these things, editors, I’m like, “No, can you all take that out?” They’re like, “No, we’re leaving this in here,” because — Kev: Leave it in, editor.  Dan: They’ll learn too. But, yeah, man, I mean, like I said, you, the focus that you had with so much of the content that you put out and also just how you continue to enjoy it, I feel like that is the model. And I’m really excited for you and where you continue to grow and the fact that you’re leveraging your platform the way you have to put people on, I mean, that’s the dream.  I mean, I know that, you know, I’m definitely, you know, in the days of it, it could likely feel like a lot of work but, hey, man, you’re doing the work, man. And it’s much appreciated. Kev: Thank you, man. That truly means a lot, Dan. I appreciate you even saying that. And I’m glad that you think, you know, I’ll still be here in 5, 10 years because I hope too, you know? But if not, you know, I own a house in this small town. If you see me living in South Carolina, just figure out that it didn’t work. Dan: Hey, man. Kev: But I’ll still be happy. I’ll still be making videos or doing podcasts or something. Dan: And joy will be there. The joy will be there. For sure. Regardless. But, hey, man, Kev, this was great. I really appreciate you for making the time.  Kev: Thank you, man.  Dan: But before we let you go, anything you wanna plug the audience, let them know some of the content you got coming out with the streaming service? Kev: KevOnStage Studios. man, go to your app store, whether you’re on Apple, Android, Roku, Amazon, go to KevOnStage Studios, download that. Go ahead and subscribe for the year. Don’t worry about what’s on there. Just subscribe for the year. Trust me, it’ll be worth it.  We’ve got a lot of amazing things on there. We got the Real Comedians Challenge Show, which is just knockdown drag out funny. We’ve got What’s Good?! which is a food show with comedians and comedians are more like regular people than chefs so you’re gonna feel like it’s you and your friends going out to eat in a different city.  We got Love On Stage, which is a dating show my wife created and produced. That’s fantastic. You can stream that whole season in there. Just fun stuff like Get Your Black Card Off Layaway shows, Keon’s All Stars, Crafts and Cocktails, just fun stuff, man. Just go on there, check it out. Destination Evrywhr is an amazing travel show that, you know, has a musician who went all the way to Cambodia to make music with Cambodians. We have stuff like that.  I mean, just go over there and check it out, man. Just don’t worry about the monthly fee. Don’t pay monthly. Pay by the year. You get two months free when you pay by the year. Just go ahead, go from here, wherever you’re listening, right to KevOnStage Studios and pay for the year. You won’t regret it. And even if you do, we already have your money. Dan: We’ll make it easy for people too. We’ll put the link in the show notes. Kev: Perfect. Thank you so much, Dan. I really appreciate it. I’m a big fan of yours. I’ve been watching your podcast and be like, “How does Dan get these guests?” And then you tweeted like I just be asking, I was like That ain’t no secret. That’s just — He’s like you just know somebody or just shoot your shot. I’m like, you had Rick Ross though, man. You had Issa Rae. And you’re like, “Yeah, just ask.” I’m like, “Okay, we’ll see how that works, Dan. I’m gonna just ask too, see what I can get on my podcast.” Dan: I will say, I mean, there’s something a bit more nuanced to that and I was like, you know what, I could have added more because I made it seem like, “Oh, y’all could do it. Why don’t you just DM Rick Ross?” Kev: Yeah. I was like, “Dan, it is not that easy.” It is not that easy and you know that. I just believe all we got to do is DM him and he’ll be like, “Yeah, I’m gonna be on there.” You know it took more than that, Dan. Dan: Oh, man. Well, no. So ’cause I think people probably appreciate this for the folks that do listen. So the Rick Ross one, real quick, so the Rick Ross one, I had had his attorney, Leron Rogers, on the pod. Him and I had had a good conversation and, you know, stayed connected afterward and I saw that Ross was putting out a book and I was like, “Alright, if someone’s put out a book, they’re gonna be on the tour,” and then I was like, “Okay, hey, you know, I know that Rozay is gonna be on the tour, would love to have him, he’s writing about business. This literally is the avenue to do that.” And he was like, “Alright, send me some details, let me see what I can make work,” and then we made it work after that.  Kev: See? Dan: Yeah. Kev: It is more than just DM-ing. It’s timing, it’s relationship, it’s an audience people care about and a podcast that people actually watch and download. So, sorry, guys, it’s not as easy as Dan made it seem. Dan: No, you’re right. If someone has to be, “Oh, hey, how did you get KevOnStage on your pod?” I’d be like, “Oh, I just DM-ed him. Y’all could do it too.” You gotta get all these people flooded. They will be like, “Oh, KevOnStage, can you come to do my thing? Oh, KevOnStage — Kev: Guarantee you it’s not gonna be that easy. ’cause if I don’t follow you, I don’t even really see your DMs. I’m a fan of Dan so I saw his and I already wanted to be on this show so when he asked, I was like, “Finally, my time is now.” Dan: It’s funny, man, because I so remember, it’s like one day on Twitter and, I mean, like I said, I’ve been following you on, you know, all the other platforms. And then, one day, you just quote tweeted something I said and you were like, “Y’all should follow this guy.” And I was just like — Kev: Yes. Dan: Yo, KevOnStage — I was just like, okay, all right, we hear this. Kev: ’Cause you’re really smart, man, and you take stuff that is like out there and you make it so digestible. Like what Westbrook is doing, I’ve been following them but when you made that graphic about the flywheel, it’s like, “This is exactly what they do,” but it makes so much — I sent that to so many of my friends.  I was like, this is what KevOnStage Studios has to become and the way they did The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air reunion, all of the stuff they did with that and then they ran that same thing back for King Richard, genius. And then with Will’s Best Shape of My Life, I watched that, get YouTube to pay for it, boom, use it to actually lose weight and promote your book. Dan: Brilliant. Kev: I said what the heck? I wanted to get the book because of that. Genius level marketing and even somebody as big as Will Smith, everything they do is not behind the paywall. They gotta use YouTube and Instagram just like regular people. So I know I’m on the right track.  And I also met Will Smith, I don’t know if you know that. I don’t like to talk about it.  Dan: Oh, no, you only post a photo, what? Every month or so. Kev: I haven’t posted in a while. I should bring it up again today. Dan: If he wins this Oscar for Best Actor, you gotta be part of that campaign. Kev: He might thank me from the podium. He might be like, “This wouldn’t have worked without KevOnStage’s dad joke to help promote the film. I’m so glad that he did that and that’s why you heard about King Richard,” and I’m gonna be like, “Thanks. You’re welcome, Will. And you’re welcome, world.” Dan: Oh, man. I’m kind of waiting for that moment, that will be dope. Kev: Oh, man, I’ll be so happy for him. I’ll be so happy. And he was great in that, like it was an Oscar-worthy performance so I really do hope he wins. Dan: Yeah, no, definitely. No, he does too. But, hey, man, this was great. I really appreciate you coming on. Kev: Thank you so much for having me, Dan. I appreciate it, man.  (outro) If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That’s how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you’re at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 04 May 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Rerun: How KevOnStage is Building His Comedy Flywheel full Dan Runcie This week, I’m running back an interview with another one of the most popular episodes we ever did with KevOnStage from early 2022.  KevOnStage (Kevin Fredericks) is a comedian, producer, director, and entrepreneur behind KevOnStage studios.   Today's episode talks about how he built an independent brand that really paid off his hard work. He established a solid fan base, had millions of followers on social media, and monetized these platforms by producing his hilarious viral content, a total blast in the mainstream. Listen as we talk about what's going on in his business and his independent success, turning rejection into a massive opportunity to be where he is now. Episode Highlights [01:56] What KevOnStage is currently working on [04:49] His take on more black content going in the mainstream [06:53] KevOnStage’s motto, his marketing strategy, and business goals [11:57] What it’s like to have autonomy in his brand [19:08] His thoughts on artists knowing their audience and dealing with critics [21:30] What's the process from the stuff put out on socials versus onstage [25:24] How does he approach his game using different social platforms [32:38] What’s something beyond just the monetary gain that makes him want to continue to feel inspired to create content [35:13] His opinion on creators who are a one-platform-dominant [38:21] Where does his most lucrative income come from  [41:57] How he diversify his content to own the media and make his brand stand out [45:51] What would he like to be doing more of [51:28] KevOnStage’s new content to watch out for Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: KevOnStage Studios This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPT Kev: So, sometimes partnering is great, sometimes licensing is great, sometimes selling is great sometimes. A good business person takes the best deal for what they need to get done. (intro) Dan: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I’m your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  Today’s guest is KevOnStage, the comedian, producer, director, and entrepreneur behind KevOnStage Studios. I’ve been following KevOnStage for years now. I think he’s one of the funniest people on the internet so it was so good to have this conversation.  We talked about how he’s built his business and everything that he has done from how he creates content, how he thinks about what platforms he prioritizes, how that then provides insights for what he creates for his longer form content, what gets created from KevOnStage Studios, and, ultimately, the type of opportunities that he can offer for other creators and other entertainers that want to do, in many ways, largely the type of thing that he’s done.  And we talked about where his streaming service sits in this ecosystem of the Netflixes and the Hulus and, in a lot of ways, even though those streaming services may have their black voices tabs, that’s not quite the type of content that is what Kev is making so he’s really finding his niche, doubling down there, and how he uses the insights from that to infer what gets made, that is how many creators have been very successful so so much of that is very relatable.  This is also probably one of the interviews I’ve laughed in the most. He’s hilarious, like I said. This is a great conversation. I really hope you enjoy it. Here’s my chat with KevOnStage. (interview) Dan: All right, we got my guy KevOnStage here. Kev, you are one of the busiest people that I’d seen from 2021. Now we’re next year, man. How you feeling? Fresh year, how is it? Kev: I’m excited, man. We’ve got a lot of new things we’re working on. I’m really excited, man. It’s always fun to be at the beginning of a project, not knowing where it’s going or how far it may go and that’s kind of where I am now. All the things I’m like, “Oh, soon as I get back, soon as I get back, I’m gonna start working on that.” That time is here now so I’m really excited. Dan: That what’s up. Because I feel like for you, you got a few things that are already in motion that have been working well. Your content’s good. You got that machine going. But the Studio, I feel like that’s the really exciting thing that’s been growing. Kev: Listen, man, I’m working on my own flywheel, okay? Westbrook, they got their flywheel, fast IP, that was the best graphic I’ve ever seen that you made.  Dan: Oh, thank you.  Kev: I was like, “This is what I wanna do. I wanna do everything from Instagram videos to selling shows.” So, you know, and they all have their own value so that’s what’s exciting. I have the same amount of joy from making a funny reel like I posted of Angel falling in the challenge show, it was just — I spent 20 minutes on that, really just getting the fall right.  And then I came here, you know, I went on location scout right before I came here to this new show we’re working on and then this podcast, like they’re all exciting for different reasons so I’m trying to enjoy it all.  Dan: Yeah. I think the cool thing with that, you get to wear multiple hats and I know, with this, there’s a number of things that interest you about this, right? Like you enjoy comedy, you have that piece, but I also know that you like to put people on. You wanna use your platform to do that.  So I feel like you being able to wear each of those hats and do those things gives you that opportunity to provide all of that. Kev: Absolutely, man. I think there’s the old saying of the church, “We’re blessed to be a blessing,” and that’s kind of what I wanna do. People have given me opportunities, partnerships with, you know, people have helped lift me, and I just wanna pass along the same thing.  For me, my platform isn’t about me shining alone, you know what I mean? I tell my friends all the time, I want us all in the gated community. One things I used to do at all deaths that I found a lot of joy in was give people their first great reel or first time directing or whatever and I found that I had as much joy doing that as making somebody laugh.  And KevOnStage Studios is really just a more expensive version of that. So, we wanna give people their first time PA-ing or help you get into the wardrobe union or makeup union. It’s hard for black people to get into those places but we need black people in those spaces so that’s kind of what we’re working towards doing.  And then even simple things like our editor, one of our editors likes improv so it’s like, “Hey, you wanna be in an episode?” Things like that are great too because I want people to be able to scratch their own creative itch and that’s kind of what my passion is.  Dan: What I like about KevOnStage Studios is that, sure, I think there’s a lot of attention right now with, “Oh, there’s so much black content out there on your Netflix,” your this and this, but what you’re doing is like you’re saying, that’s true to an extent but it really isn’t true for a lot of the people that I think could have the opportunities to be put on in this era. Kev: Yeah. I was just watching Abbott Elementary this morning where I was shaving and I was just like, man, this show is amazing, and to see somebody like Quinta Brunson who — my first time seeing her was on Instagram. Her “Girl who’s never been on a nice date, a large, he must got — he got money. He could —” like from that to a network sitcom.  And even shows like South Side, which I don’t know their story as much, but the show is amazing, that’s great. But then there’s a lot of creators who have those similar ideas and absolutely no path to HBO, Comedy Central, ABC, Netflix.  Even me, like I’ve pitched to a lot of people and I had a lot of, “Uh-huh, we’ll circle back.” And, you know, that was 2018, ’19, you know, pandemic killed off anything I had going in Hollywood so I want to be that same network for people who can’t get all the way to Hollywood, you know, like here’s your chance to get to, you know, Hollywood adjacent — North Hollywood, if you will.  You’re right over the hill, you just — you know, it’s cheaper in North Hollywood. You know, there’s more taco trucks, you know? And your number 15 minutes of real Hollywood, you know, that’s what KevOnStage Studios, it’s the North Hollywood of Hollywood. We’re right there. We’re right there. But it’s a one-bedroom washer and dryer stacked, you know? Dan: Exactly.  Kev: That’s a leg up from having to go to a laundry mat.  Dan: Yes, that’s true. It’s true. Kev: Stackable’s good, man. I’ll take a stackable. Dan: Right, right. It’s one of those things, right? It’s like location and all that, you can’t pick everything with these things. You can pick two, and, Kev, you’re gonna give them two. Kev: Laundry is a huge plus. Location and a stackable, I’m like, “Bet, let’s do it.”  Dan: Well, I think the good thing with it is that — because I know in past interviews, you’ve talked about, hey, with this model, this is something you wanna provide the opportunity. But from a business perspective, I know that it’s not something that you necessarily need like a ton of subscribers to reach some point or you’re not trying to reach like Netflix scale necessarily, it’s something that can sit beside that.  But with that, I’m sure you also have goals from the business side as well as the impact side with the service. So, what does that look like from a streaming service perspective? Kev: Yeah, that’s a great, great question. It’s like — I heard this example somewhere. They’re like, you know, somebody’s saying you’re not gonna beat Walmart at selling everything at a low price, right? They’re gonna beat you if you’re starting out. What you can beat them at is selling a lot of one thing, right?  Because they sell so many things for a low price, they can’t sell a lot of any one thing so they’re gonna have, you know, maybe one or two black shaving kits, maybe Bevel and maybe one other thing. If you have a black beauty supply store, people are gonna be like, “Well, Walmart doesn’t have what I’m looking, here I can go get some weave, you know, a do rag, I can get Bevel, I can get seven other, I get essential oils, I can get Dixons,” you know? So that’s our motto, like we’re not — Netflix has an $8 billion content budget. They made Squid Game to Red Notice with the Rock — we can’t compete with that, right? But they don’t have black people learning how to play spades. They don’t have that video. They don’t have, you know, the Real Comedians Challenge Show, they don’t have things like that, right?  So we wanna over serve a population that is being served by Hollywood but it’s not the primary focus, you know what I mean? Right now, we’re in an area of, we’re sorry, black people Hollywood, like, man, we really discriminate against you guys for a long time and you guys caught us out on it.  So we’re reaping the benefits of all that, you know, time where we weren’t, you know, getting our just due. But even then, there’s still so many other shows that can’t be made to this audience and that’s kind of what we wanna fill. We wanna make stuff for black people who don’t see themselves on Netflix, you know?  This church show that we’re working on, you know, is for black people who grew up in the church from a point of view of somebody who also grew up in the church and worked in the church, like if you grew up in the church like me, you know, there’s never really been a true church show from people who grew up in there.  There’s people who attended but not people who like worked in ministry, and Netflix might not see the value in making a show like that and that’s where we come in, and we wanna serve that audience. All that content where they can’t get it on Netflix.  And also I’m not even saying you don’t have to have Netflix, like I ain’t gonna lie to you, Dan, I watch my Netflix, I watch Hulu, HBO Max, like as a consumer, there’s stuff that I wanna watch too, like Game of Thrones one through four.  Dan: Yeah, one through four. One through four. Kev: One through four. Insecure, like all those shows. Of course we’re not even here to say “Don’t watch Netflix” and “Boycott Netflix” like I won’t even ask you to do that because I’m not gonna do that. But, you know, sometimes you want a nice steak dinner at a five-star restaurant, sometimes you just want a taco truck, you know, and you can’t get that experience.  When you really want a street taco or the corn man selling elotes, you know, a big steak dinner is not gonna do it. So that’s all we wanna be, man. We just a little taco truck on the street, man, just pull up real quick, get you three little tacos, you know what I’m saying? Some Jarritos and a little elote and go on about your way. You’re not gonna bring your wife here to propose to her. But if you’re in between work, you know, this Kevin taco, that’s KevOnStage Studio, just a little street taco place on the side. Dan: Right. And then with Netflix too, that’s the place that has all the good ratings of the people that know what’s up. Kev: And that’s the thing. You know, somebody gotta tell you about this place. “Hey, man, you gotta go over there. Trust me.” And when you — and that’s kind of how we’re growing, right? We don’t have the marketing budget like Netflix, right? When Netflix came out, yet get three months free, a year free. They had billboards and buses in Times Square. We don’t have that. Our thing is like, “Yo, there’s this funny show on this network called KevOnStage Studios, you gotta check it out.” Or you see a funny clip on TikTok and you wanna see the rest of the video, that’s our marketing right now. Word of mouth, your boy telling you, your girl telling you, or you seeing a clip and you wanna see more. Dan: Right. I think I heard you made the analogy once of the Sally’s Beauty Supply as opposed to, you know, what you may see at the traditional place like a Walmart, right? And I think even with that, it’s like, you know, from a haircare perspective, you know what, yeah, Walmart may have that can of Sportin’ Waves but I may want something a little more serious if you wanna make sure the wave’s spinning, right? You gotta get something a little — Kev: Absolutely. They might just have Sportin’ Waves but they’re not gonna have Murray’s, they’re not gonna have Sulfur8, Just For Me, they might just have one thing. And that’s kind of, yeah, that’s exactly what we wanna do here, man, and we’re having a good time doing it. Dan: That’s great, man. That’s great. I think that, in a lot of ways, like we were saying before, that’s how you identify the elements of your flywheel and where everything sits and how you’re able to foster not just your platform but the other opportunities and what I think it does at the end of the day, it narrows in, okay, what is the KevOnStage brand? What does it stand for? And what type of opportunities you can create from that?  Because I feel like with you specifically, you’ve now kind of hit this mode where I know you mentioned that, you know, you were knocking on the door of many folks in Hollywood or anywhere else and they weren’t necessarily letting you in, but now I feel like you’re kind of at this stage where you are doing well for yourself given everything you’ve built up independently. You’re now able to leverage things. As you mentioned yourself, you got that Maserati, like you’re — like you’re showing from that perspective, right? But you got those things.  I’m curious, though, because I know that — and as you know, definitely you have broken down a lot of the levels of what creators are and the creator economy and all those things, at this stage, you really do have the autonomy if you wanted to, okay, at this stage, would I wanna ever do some type of partnership or deal with one of these bigger distributors that are always trying to offer comedians or creators like yourselves the serious bag,  but I’m curious from your stage right now, like is that something that would still entertain you? Like is that something that you would ever do? Kev: I thought about it and it depends and I’ll tell you why. One of the best parts about being at KevOnStage Studios and not having to answer to a network is not having to answer to a network. If I wanna make a show, if I wanna cast whoever, no name or whatever, I don’t have to have anybody else say yes, you know, or no, right? One thing is, you know, I learned when I shot my first pilot that a network paid for, when they pay for it, what they say goes, right? So in this instance, they were like, “Take this joke out and this joke out and this joke out,” during the notes process and then when we shot it,  they’re like, “This isn’t funny. This is not landing. We don’t think black people are gonna get this” so we took all that stuff out, even though we were fighting for it, at the end of the day, they won because we were small and we didn’t have as much power in the room,  and at the end of the day, they passed on it because they said it wasn’t funny enough. We were like, “Well, you took everything funny out. How could it be funny?” So, you know, when you’re first starting out, the network has all the power because I’m not Denzel or Shonda Rhimes. If I got an opportunity, they’re gonna tell me what it is, and fight as I may, it’s gonna be what they say.  But here, we can make what we want to make and I think that autonomy is very freeing and it allows me to make what I know is good and funny. Like one of the things that I pride myself on is knowing my audience and what they will like and all that stuff.  And, you know, even when I do like brand deals, you know, especially early on, I would have less power and I would have to basically say whatever the brand said and it would come out corny, and I’d be like my audience would hate it and they could smell the fakeness from a mile away.  As I’ve grown. I’ve been like, “Hey, I’m gonna tell you right now that’s not gonna work. Trust me, let me do it this way and it always goes over better.” So, in that instance, I love the autonomy.  However, if we were able to partner with someone, it allows us to make things at a greater scale and provide more opportunities for other people and do things a lot easier. You know, everything we do now, we gotta figure it out, you know, when your mom came home, the kitchen bare, the cupboard’s bare, she’s like, okay, we got two chicken thighs, some corn, you know, some breadcrumbs, make something work. That’s where we’re at, you know what I’m saying?  At the end of the day, you’re like, “Hey, low key, that was kind of fire for what we had,” but you’d also love to just go to the grocery store and get everything you want. So, right now, I’m loving the freedom, but as we grow, I wouldn’t say no to an opportunity to do more and maybe employ more people for certain projects.  I don’t think there’s ever a world where everything I do, I answer to somebody. I always want to be able to create something that I want to create without having to answer to anybody. But, you know, if Warner Brothers said, “Kev, we’re gonna offer 140 million to develop some stuff,” well, yes. Yes, I would — I’ll take a little 140 mil, yeah. Dan: Right, right. And that’s the thing, right? It’s like you have the clear strategy and from an overall perspective, it sounds like, hey, I know that overall deals are the wave, that’s not necessarily what I’m looking for. However, if that number is right, I’m not gonna not have the conversation. We’re going to talk about it Kev: Absolutely — like look what Tyler Perry did, right? And I’ve watched his career and tried to mimic it to the best of my ability, which I haven’t done that well yet. But, you know, still working. But, you know, he leveraged the early Lionsgate deals into his own pocket, like, you know, he partnered with them and they were able to finance those movies and he did X, Y, Z, boom, boom. And then the capital that he got from that, he was able to finance his own shows.  So sometimes, partnering is great sometimes, licensing is great sometimes, selling is great sometimes. A good business person takes the best deal for what they need to get done, right? So I wouldn’t say that, you know, part of our business model is if I can make a show, you know, at our margins and I can license it to you in the first window, I can make a great margin there and now I’ve done two things,  I’ve made the show and I made the show I want and I might, you know, right now, there’s a lot of, you know, places that have more distribution than we do  so if you wanna take it off our hands, we made our money back and you wanna, you know, stream it, then you’ve just introduced a lot more people to KevOnStage Studios and they can come back to the app and watch the other stuff we’ve made.  So that’s definitely part of our plan and that would help us make more shows. So even if we sold that one and they own the rights to it, I wouldn’t cry because we can make eight more shows with what we sold that one for.  So it’s about making the right business, you know, choice at the right time and not being like, “I wanna own it all,” like, I mean, obviously, I wanna own it all but that also comes with its own risks, which means you have to finance it all. And if it sucks, you’ve lost everything, you know? Everything you spent.  So that’s a risk that you don’t want to have to take every time, you know? Sometimes, you wanna take it when it’s near and dear to your heart, but not — every time? You wanna reach into your own pocket every time? You know? Not every time. So, yeah, we’re always keeping our options open to the right partnership whenever that may come. Dan: Yeah, I think that’s the healthy and best way to look at it, because as both of us, people that spent a lot of time on Twitter, we know how big — everyone wants to own everything, right? But until you’re actually in it, you don’t realize how much nuance there is with all of that and I really look at these things as a spectrum, as you do, and I think the best people have a mix of both of these things.  And like you said, I know that, you know, you mentioned Tyler Perry as a model, the same way that you know how to create this content and do it at a way it’s affordable, that’s essentially what he did with like Meet the Browns, right? Boom, let me go sell this to TBS and now we got cable distribution for however many years, you know, he’s been doing that. Kev: Absolutely, and hardly anybody in Hollywood could shoot at the rate he shoots at. So his margins are much lower than a traditional network or even cable. So I mean, you know, Tyler, you see articles, they shot 20 episodes in six days — Dan: Wild. Kev: — nobody would even attempt that, you know? And BET was like, yeah, we’ll take more. We’ll take whatever you got. So, for him, he knows his audience, he knows his business model, he knows it works. Critics don’t stop what he’s doing. And the numbers reflect that he’s doing the right thing. People criticize, come what may, but when them numbers come out, people are watching.  So that’s one thing I’ve been thinking a lot about is like, especially if you’re on Twitter a lot, everything sucks, everybody hates everything, there’s nothing good, everybody’s wrong. But at the end of the day, somebody is watching that.  So, you know, we’d be on Twitter trashing everything but somebody likes that show and they’re watching it weekly. So, Tyler’s learned to focus on those people who are enjoying it and tuning out people who don’t enjoy because they’re not — they don’t help his plan and that’s kind of what we’re doing here.  Like we’re not trying to make everything for everybody. We’re trying to make a lot of stuff for the people who want to watch it. And then you grow, the same thing Tyler did, you have your base, you cater to that base, and you grow that base. Dan: Yep.  Kev: And if you do that, I mean, that’s tried and true. Like we were talking about earlier, you don’t need a lot of followers, you don’t need a whole bunch of people. You need people who are really excited and who want to come to your live show and buy a t-shirt, to support your Patreon, and get your app, you know?  There’s so many creators with millions of followers but not a lot of active fans so when they try to go on tour or sell a t-shirt, people are like, “No, man, we don’t — we’re not — you know, post the thing on Instagram I like.”  Dan: Right. Kev: But I wanna do this. No, no, no. So I learned a long time ago, it’s better to have 500 really active fans than 5 million people who kinda like your stuff. Dan: Definitely. And I feel like, with you, you’ve been able to see that in real life, like you are going on tour, you’re seeing these people in person, you’re getting all those reactions too.  And you mentioned earlier about just insights and you being able to see what works and what doesn’t and I wonder, how much of that is based on just the feeling of, “Okay, this piece or this post really took off and then I’m gonna try to incorporate that into something,” or how much of it is also, you know, data driven as well where you’re looking at things, you know, precisely and you’re like, “Okay, like if I’m spending this much time here,” what’s that process like, you know, from the stuff you put out on socials versus what you may do on stage? Kev: That’s a great question. For socials, the one thing I’ve learned about the internet is I don’t know anything about the internet. What goes viral? What works? Man? My best TikTok is me holding my son’s dog and talking about how black people — Dan: Oh, does your dog know if you’re black?  Kev: Does your dog know you’re black? If you’re Mexican, does your dog know you’re Mexican? If you’re white, does your dog know you’re white? That didn’t take a lot of thought. I literally was at home and he was about to get into something, I was like, and then I was like, I wonder if he knows that means stop in black, you know what I mean? And then I wondered if a Mexican family has their own version of that. I just threw that up and it had — it’s got like 2.6 million views on TikTok. That is not the funniest video, it’s not the most relatable, it didn’t even do that well on Instagram or Twitter or whatever. I just throw it up against the wall. I let the internet decide what’s funny or not and I know some things tend to do well more than others.  Any culture messing with black food in a way that’s not traditional, you mess with macaroni and cheese, it’s gonna get a lot of views, right? But, you know, I was making a lot of those food videos and then people were just — like I was getting every food video so I was like, okay, as a creator, even if it does get a lot of views, I don’t wanna be the food guy and I don’t wanna keep making the same video.  So, part of my strategy is I make something that is funny, make something that’s relatable, or make something that I just think is funny. Or if I got nothing of that, then I’ll share another creator who’s funny. There’s been some days where I’m like, “Man, I don’t feel funny today,” and I’ll see somebody else’s video, I’ll be like, well, let me just share their stuff because there’s nothing I can do that’s as funny as this.  So, you know, and I share and tag them and then I’m like, even if I didn’t make something funny, I fulfilled my promise to introduce you to new creators. So that’s kind of my strategy. And I just also am very consistent. Even if I don’t think the video’s great, I still post it because what’s great to me and what’s great to somebody else is very different.  I’ve had a lot of videos that I think they’re hilarious that did absolutely nothing. And a lot of them, like my dog video that I didn’t think nothing of and just threw up, that went viral. Like I made this waffle house video probably four or five years ago, I mean, I was on my way to work, I was like, you know, I saw this article, it said Waffle House is dirty. And I’m just like nobody who eats at Waffle House cares about that.  Dan: Right. Kev: We know. That video went stupid viral. I mean crazy. And I didn’t even — it took less than 5 minutes total. Shoot, edit, post. And I did it — I wouldn’t advise this but I shot the whole thing on the freeway. I was driving to work, I always had my phone in my rearview mirror thing, hit record, said what I had to say, turned it off. When I got out of my car, I edited it, put the article next while I was walking to work. That thing went crazy.  Didn’t think nothing of it. Just threw it up and so many people, that’s how they got introduced to me. So, you know, what do I know? I’ve been doing this 10 years now pretty consistently. So many things went viral that I would have never done. And, you know, that’s the nature of the internet. Dan: Right, it’s like you know that there’s generally a type of content you put out that’s going to work, you put it out there and you just know that something’s gonna hit. It may not always be what you think is gonna hit, but you put it out there, for sure. Kev: Absolutely, man. Let the people decide what’s fun. I mean, I did one video where I was yelling at my son, I use the term loosely, ’cause he had gotten good grades. It did like 7 million views on Twitter, 6, 7 million views, and I was just like, kids, puppies, they’re gonna work every time.  So, you know, I try to exploit my dog while he’s still small. I don’t exploit my children as much. But the dog, he don’t even know how many videos. He does well. He’s earning his keep in the Fredericks household.  Dan: One of the things I also, you know, like about how you approach your game is that you look at each social platform differently and you also know how to move to things, right? Like you know that Twitter is quick. You’re gonna — that’s gonna be the one that’s most current about things.  But I know you’ve also put a lot more time into TikTok and just given, I think we saw the recent stats that TikTok, people spending more time on that now than Google, you know, you gotta be early on a lot of these platforms to rise.  But there’s also things like Clubhouse, for instance, where, you know, I think things rose and then, you know, it dipped and I’m curious, how do you approach that? Like do you know that there’s certain ones where you’re like, “Okay, there’s something here, let me double down here,” like what’s your method for that type of thing? Kev: You have a lot of good questions, man. This is why you — you should do a podcast, maybe a newsletter as well about hip hop and entertainment. What I try to do, one of my, you know, things that I’ve noticed works well is using a platform how that platform was designed to be used.  So Twitter, the best thing is tweeting, like writing, like writing out funny tweets, whether you’re trending, relatable, whatever. I post my videos — the only reason I post my videos on Twitter is because people would rip my videos and post — because videos didn’t do well on Twitter for me for a long time and the only reason I posted on there now is because people would rip my videos and post them and they’d do better on Twitter than I ever would have thought, so I was like, well, nobody’s gonna be getting them if I’m not gonna get them. But as far as TikTok, I always try what’s new incoming. I’ve tried, I mean, Vine. You want to talk about the worst creator ever on Vine? Kevin — I mean, I couldn’t get Vine to work for nothing.  I made a Vine one time, Dan, and I’m lucky you can’t find it. And I was like making toast and I put a piece of bread in the oven and then the Vine cut and I had like half a second left and I was like, “Burnt,” and it was just a piece of burnt bread. And I was like, I don’t — I’m gonna stop doing this. This is literally the worst Vine ever.  I tried Socialcam, Periscope, Clubhouse, spaces, Fleets, Stories, Snapchat. I’ve tried everything. Part of it for me is like, let’s talk about TikTok, for example. TikTok was a new — there were so many fun ways to edit on there, editing was more seamless, they had all those backgrounds. So, as a creator, it was just fresh.  But anytime children are using something, the user base is gonna grow. And I think TikTok used to be Musical.ly and I remember my niece was on Musical.ly a long time ago so my strategy is always dip my toes in the water, see what works, find out how that platform works specifically.  I realized what I learned about TikTok is you gotta be even quicker than other places on TikTok. I’m talking about people are scrolling like almost like this. You got like maybe 6, 7 seconds on Instagram, you got like 2.3 on TikTok and you can buy 3 seconds if you put the caption.  It took me a long time to realize you had to write the caption on the video because people are not looking down to, I believe it’s the left to see what you’re saying so you gotta figure out, stop their system for one second and say when this be like or baby like or whatever. That’s step one and now you might have their attention.  Using whatever trend is popping or whatever music is popping, now that’s step two. Now, you got them for 7, 8 seconds, now you may have a chance. But almost all of these platforms are, “Is it funny? Is it entertaining? Is it educational? Or is it relatable?” If you’re doing one of those of the four, you’ll be better off, but like I was a long winded person so I was on Periscope early and I stayed for a long time and I have so many of the people who are now on the Stage Crew is what we call our group of fans are —  I used to go on Periscope every day while I drove to work. I was stuck in traffic for an hour and a half, I’d be on Periscope for an hour. And I just chopped it up. I’ve seen video ideas. And so many people loved it and they stuck with me for a long time. And another thing I do, I know I’m just rambling, I test out concepts on platforms, right?  So I’ll tweet something and if that tweet does numbers, then I’ll be like, “Bet, I’ll make a video of that.” Like, for example, Uberfacts tweeted, “What’s —” This is a trend maybe last week. Uberfacts tweeted, “What’s a company’s secret you can spill now that you don’t work there anymore?” and I was like, oh, I worked at the bank.  I quote tweeted, “The bank does actually overdraw you on purpose,” like a lot of people used to accuse us of that and we would have to lie but they actually do it on purpose. It had like 26,000 retweets so I’m like, okay, that’s great, that means people are interested. Now let me screenshot that, go to TikTok, and make the talking version of that.  And then I put that video on TikTok, did well. Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, did well. And then a couple of days later, I put the video version of a tweet that went viral right back on Twitter with my own tweet and it also went well.  And I’ll do that all the time. If I’m not sure video work, I’ll post it on my stories and I’ll check the engagement. If I get over 50 shares or 100 shares, I’m like, “Oh, I’ll take that off and put it on the main grid.” Sometimes I’ll make a full video. So I’m kinda like seeding out content and seeing what people respond to and then deciding if I wanna make a full video after that.  I have to do that now because I’m doing other projects. I used to just scour the internet for videos all day but because we’re making stuff for the app and stuff, I don’t have as much time so I’m kinda like throwing stuff against the wall, seeing what works, and then making full versions of that.  And that’s kinda how I continue making content consistently while I’m really spending more time creating long-form content, where I’m on set 10, 12 hours a day. I just don’t have the time to be on the internet like I usually was so I’ve gotta like be more strategic about doing it. Dan: That’s your fastlane IP model right there. You just broke it down. Kev: Yeah. Absolutely, man. I’m just always moving in there. And my hope, one day, I wanna be like — do you remember, DC Young Fly early? He used roasting to rise him to fame and then he leveraged that into other stuff. Now he can use social media just to remind you of what he’s doing.  One day, I’ll be able to be like, “Oh, my social media is just to remind you of what’s coming and going.” Or like Kevin Hart, like he’ll still come on every once in a while and remind you he’s hilarious on social media but he doesn’t need it as a vehicle as much as he used to.  That’s my goal, when I can go a week or a month without making something funny, and people still are checking in. But I’m probably a little ways away from that. Dan: What do you think that would look like to get there? Like is there a particular number or do you feel like it’s like a feeling of where you are in your career? Kev: I think — what it really will probably be is when I’m shooting so many things that take up my full day, when I’m shooting 10, 12 hours on set, it’s really hard to make a great internet video that day, because I’m not on the internet because I’m shooting. When I’m on break, I might be scanning but, you know, the lunch on set is 30 minutes, if that, feels like.  By the time you sit down and eat and then you’re back on set for 6 hours. If I was doing that for three months, it’d be tough to make the same amount of content that I’m making. So if I was basically doing those kinds of projects back to back, then I know my social media will suffer in the sense of creating at the pace I usually did.  My only hope is that the monetary benefit from my other projects will, you know, keep me afloat. I mean, obviously, I don’t make crazy money, well, relative, from the actual platform, it’s all about leveraging them to make money off the platform. But, you know, we still get paid from Tik—  I mean, not TikTok, I mean, technically TikTok but I make no money off that. Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube so my hope is that I’ve got so many projects that I’m making, either from my own distribution service or for somebody else or a partner or something we’ve sold, that I’m like, “Man, I’m making too many things, I don’t have time to like see what the TikTok trend is.” But, honestly, Dan, I like making videos so much. If I was on my lunch break, scanning through TikTok, I will make a video, because it doesn’t take me that long. My best skill isn’t funny, isn’t being hard working, it’s efficiency. When I’m inspired, I can download, shoot, and post in no time.  And TikTok, God bless them, so happy you can just click download for most videos. Don’t make me go through screen recording and down— that’s too much. You want people to share these anyway, make it easy. So, I can do a whole thing in less than 5 minutes so as long as I got 5 minutes, I’ll probably make something. Dan: Yeah. I feel like that’s what drives it at the end of the day, right? Like there has to be something beyond just the monetary gain to make you wanna continue to feel inspired to create and that’s great that you have that still with the videos.  I mean, I definitely sense that from the joy and passion that you share out of it, but I think for a lot of people that do create content on the internet and then that is the awareness they build to sell elsewhere, they ideally would just love to sell the other thing but the internet feels like this thing that they have to do.  So the fact that you don’t feel that, I mean, I’m sure it’s still exhausting, for sure. But the fact that you don’t feel that naturally, I think, is what helps that longevity. Kev: Absolutely. I think, you know, we all deal with like burnout or not feeling funny or feeling like I’m never gonna come up with any other idea. But I see the value in using these platforms but also leveraging them to your own stuff, like being an early YouTube creator when adpocalypse happened and Logan Paul did that suicide forest thing and everybody’s monetization was punished, that’s the first time I was like, “Oh, snap. I didn’t even have nothing to do with this. I never been to Japan. I would never. Why am I getting punished?” That’s the first time I was like, “I can’t rely on these platforms,” and then when Vine came and went, even though I sucked at Vine, there was a lot of people where they depended on Vine and, luckily, most of the creators who were big leveraged that to Snapchat or Instagram or YouTube but some of them never even got close to the heights that they had on Vine.  And the same thing happened on Instagram or TikTok or whatever. You know, a lot of people are one platform dominant, killing it on TikTok but nowhere else big. I would rather be five platforms doing okay than one platform dominant because now I can go from TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, into my own platform, Patreon, which is fantastic. It’s very important to what we do here. If I only had Patreon, I’d be okay.  So, you know, I’ve kind of like made my exit strategy because the Internet changes too quick, you know? One day it’s popping — Clubhouse, man, people were — it was the thing for like 5 months and then everybody — it felt like everybody was just like, “Nah,” like one day, and it’s still there, it still have great stuff going on there, but during the pandemic, man, it launched — or not launched but it popped at a perfect time when everybody was at home.  Dan: Right.  Kev: But then people just got sick of people talking and Facebook came up with their own one and Twitter came up with their own one and then Clubhouse didn’t have, you know, that exclusive thing anymore. I mean, that’s — you talk about a quick pivot.  Dan: Yeah. Kev: You know, Clubhouse, how quickly Twitter jumped on that, that was fast. It took Instagram a long time to copy Snapchat.  Dan: Yeah, and — Kev: It took Twitter, it felt like 2 months before they had — Dan: Yeah, Spaces was quick. Kev: I was like, Jesus, and the thing that Facebook did really well is kind of what Twitter did too. They said, “We’re not gonna beat Snapchat’s market share, and we don’t have to. All we need to do is slow their growth and get somebody who was never gonna go to Snapchat to do what they would have done on Instagram.” My wife is that person. She never went on Snapchat ever. But they took that idea and that, you know, Stories, put it in Instagram, and she was like, “Oh, I’ll do this.” And I was like, “Girl, I’ve been telling you about Snapchat.” She was like, “I’m not downloading no more apps.” And that’s the same thing. So you — that’s why I never wanna be one platform dominant because the winds, they blow and change too quickly and you could be caught in the cold, you know? Like YouTube, man, YouTube decided on a whim, it felt like, family content, if it looks like it’s geared towards kids, you’re not gonna be able to monetize that.  People went from making hundreds of thousands of dollars a month to zero. When they decided they didn’t want pranks anymore, people went from making 50 grand, 150 grand a month to like literally zero, I’m not even exag— I know people who had to give up their house in the Hollywood Hills when YouTube was like, “We’re not doing that no more.” And that’s when I was like, “Oh, this is too dangerous to be only on one platform.” You gotta use them all but you also have to have an exit strategy. To me, you know? Everybody doesn’t have to do that but, to me, you gotta have an exit strategy. Dan: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. And I think the way you structured it makes sense too. I mean, yeah, you mentioned you’re still getting some income from those platforms but the majority is outside of it.  And I’m curious, what do your splits and breakdowns look like from a percentage perspective of, you know, like how much does come from those platforms versus how much comes from your other content or your stand-up or any of the other ticketed type of things? Kev: So, the most lucrative by a mile is live events. Touring, live events is the most lucrative. That’s why when the pandemic happened, I was like, “Oh my God,” because that — before the pandemic, that was foolproof. As long as people wanted to come see you, you will be able to eat forever, and then all of a sudden, no.  So, for me, the most important thing is touring. The second most important thing probably is my Patreon, because that’s a group of people who really believe in what we’re doing here and support me and if I lost my other platforms, they would still be there.  Outside of that, YouTube and Facebook, YouTube was really consistent monetarily. Facebook can be a blow up, for me at least, a blow up and then nothing. You have some months where it’s, you know, 2 grand and some months it could be 10 grand, you know what I mean?  So it’s like, you really can’t build a business off of that, you know, wave of, you know, unpredictability. But for me, I probably say 60 percent is live, 40 percent is — or I’m sorry, 20 percent is Patreon, and the other is like podcasting. Podcasting can be really lucrative with the ad revenue. It’s also platform agnostic. Like I don’t need to be monetized on YouTube because I’m monetized through the ads that are baked into the podcast, you know?  So, for me, those are what I focus on and everything else is gravy. Whatever Instagram pays me, gravy. Whatever Facebook pays me, gravy. Whatever YouTube pays me, gravy. And those are the things I have the least amount of control over anyway so, yeah. Dan: That makes sense, yeah, and I think like that split too, honestly sounds like what it’s like for a lot of artists as well. I mean, so much comes from live performances, more than half for most of them, but that other chunk, you know, whether it’s through their branded partnership or any of their influencer revenue that they may have but also what they get actually selling their music through streaming or the publishing revenue that comes in.  So there’s definitely a ton of similarities there, which is why I like the model of what you all, and what you specifically have done to build it up. But I think the difference though is that I probably see a little bit more creativity on average from some of the more successful independent comedians than maybe some of the more, you know, successful artists. I feel like there’s been more of like a standard path but whether it’s you or some of the others that have, you know, risen up, especially in the past 5 to 7 years, there’s definitely, you know, I think a bit more variety and, you know, especially whether they’re building their own studios or they’re trying to do a few more creative brand partnerships and deals, I’ve always been fascinated with that piece about how comedians and stand-ups are able to monetize and use the internet. Kev: Absolutely, and I think like look at any 85 South, man, like they have — their live event is huge. And then they can just put that exact video on YouTube or their app and they sell merch and even if they did nothing else but live shows and merch, they’d probably be okay, but now, they’re building their own app out. It’s already out there, the Channel 8, and they’re expanding that. So, you know, another smart thing, like let me diversify what we’re doing and own the media aspect of it. But, for me, that’s merch and brand deals like, to me, it’s hard to be good at everything, you know what I mean? So I don’t try to be.  I’m like merch, I’ll focus on the road, if I have a great idea, but it’s not my strong suit, because fashion and design aren’t my strong suits so I’ll just really make stuff for the Stage Crew who loves it. And I’ll focus on live events, video content, and podcasting and I’ll be strong there.  I mean, you got people like Kountry Wayne who like master of Facebook and Instagram, like he knows the amount, you gotta be at least 3 minutes to get really paid. His sketches are 3:01. They’re gonna be over 3. On Instagram, they start really quick so he’s mastered that and he’s also on the road.  So everybody has their skill set and it’s kinda like, to me, basketball players, like LeBron’s the greatest player to me, ever, and he’s good at a lot of different things. Steph is the best shooter ever so he doesn’t have to be a rebounder like LeBron because he’s gonna shoot threes from the logo so you won’t be able to guard him.  And that’s kinda how I think of creators, like very few people are as well rounded as LeBron but you can have a long career being really good at one or two things and that’s fine too. Dan: Yeah. And as long as the platforms that are there are still aligned to like where your skill set is the better. Kev: Yeah. Dan: Because it’s one of those things where Steph also was really good at something that he was able to set a trend with and, you know, just gotten more and more favorite too as the game went on. But it’s like if you’re really good at, you know, like that Charles Oakley, you know, old school right? This next game, you might not have as long of a career is you may have had in ’93. Kev: That’s a fantastic point. Charles Oakley wouldn’t know what to do in this game, like he’s still gonna be big and strong but he’s gonna be guarding Luka or Kevin Durant and they shooting from three, they’re driving around, the game has changed so that’s a good point as well like the game changes so you have to be able to, you know, change with the game. The internet changes.  The same thing with comedy, like what was funny and tweetable 10 years ago isn’t funny or tweetable this year, and I’m not one of those who complains about cancel culture. As a comedian, our job is to know where the line is. Know what society thinks is funny and stay there and not to be like, “Well, this was funny 12 years ago.”  Yeah, The Nutty Professor was hilarious before but it wouldn’t be as funny if it was made now. People would call it fat phobic or whatever. But if you watched it then, it was great, you know what I’m saying? Pepé Le Pew, hilarious as a kid. Now you’re like, “Yo, what’s was he on, man? Where’s the consent? Leave her alone, man. Let her go,” you know? So I think comedy and everything is similar. Everything is changing. Fashion, language, music, all of that stuff. So, you know, as a creator, you have to be aware of that change or you get left behind. Dan: Yeah. And to bring it full circle, what you brought up with Vine is a great example of this. You yourself may not have been the most successful on that platform, like you said, but there are many people who had some of the most popular Vines that were like winning and spread everywhere. And, unfortunately, I just haven’t seen them as much because there’s something about that 6-second storytelling that they did so well with that just didn’t translate as well to where things are right now. Kev: Absolutely. 100 percent. That’s what I was saying, like some people translated but for some people, that was it. They never reached the heights they had on Vine ever again, you know? And some of the same trends on Vine probably would work on TikTok but not exactly.  So, you know, you gotta get in where you fit in and fit for as long as you can. And then, as the world changes, you gotta fit there too. And that’s, to me, the only way to survive. Dan: Definitely. So, for you, just because you are wearing, as we talked about, all these different hats, all these different roles, 5 years from now, 10 years from now, of course, we don’t know where things are going, but in the ideal scenario, what would you like to be doing more of or what would you like to be doing less of? Kev: More of helping other creators create their content. That’s actually one of the things we wanna do at KevOnStage Studios. It’s the hardest part though. Much harder than I realized, you know, to even maybe make somebody else’s show, to even go through the legal process of trying to make it is already expensive.  So I found that that part was a lot harder than I realized. If somebody comes in and is like, “Yeah, whatever deal is fine,” it’s very easy. If somebody is like, “I’ve got these ideas and stuff,” talking to their lawyer, our lawyer, it’s tough. And to do development, you need somebody who can focus on that, you need the resources for legal, you need the production staff to be able to go and make that.  So I would hope that we could grow enough to be making more of stuff for other creators and creating those opportunities. Right now, we’re kind of focusing on building the foundation with the team we have. But in order to do that, we’d have to scale out a little bit so that would be our goal. I would also love to be making independent movies. That’s always been a dream of mine. I just love the experience of movie, either in theaters or at home, I don’t care. I’m not like one of those creators, like, “It’s got to be in a movie or it ain’t real,” like I was poor so we couldn’t go to the actual movies that much so all my dreams and memories are watching them at home.  So I don’t care if you’re watching it on your phone or TV or whatever, but I’d love to be doing those two things, if nothing else. Creating content with others and then creating movies and creating stuff that I would love to create and hopefully distributing it to a lot of people.  The one thing about the KevOnStage Studios app right now, it’s still very small so, you know, to the viewer, that’s fantastic, but the other streamers and distribution sites, they have a lot more access. If I tell you to go watch a show on Netflix, the chances of you having Netflix are very high. Or HBO Max, something like that.  If somebody tells you to go watch something on KevOnStage Studios, the chances of you already having that app are not as high as you having Netflix. So our goal, our hope would be that, “Oh, yeah, man, I’m gonna check that out. I didn’t even know we had that.” But you gotta have the show that breaks through.  Like if you think about Apple TV, as much money as they have, people didn’t really click in by and large until Ted Lasso. Like I watched See, they had a lot of stuff. Nobody cared, by and large, until Ted Lasso.  So even — and they have trillion dollars in cash. People were like, meh, you know what I’m saying? So it’s not just unique to what we’re doing, it’s a lot of places that struggle. Peacock and Quibi. Quibi had all the money in the world, access to every A-list star in the world, people were like meh, so it’s not easy, man. It is not easy.  It’s not even unique to being small. It’s just not an easy business to be in. So I would just hope to still be here, in fact. Low key, to still be able to do this for a living in 5 years, I will be happy with just that. Dan: No, man, I think you will. And I mean, I’m not just saying that as someone that’s been a fan of your content following you for a while. I mean — Kev: Thank you, thank you.  Dan: I really do look at you as one of the success stories when we think about this era of the Internet and what creators were able to do in this phase. I feel like we’ve seen folks in, you know, past eras and eras before that and the Internet has always been so nascent but I think your focus and consistency. Wait, which one? Kev: I really don’t know. Nascent, what’s that? Dan: Oh, in terms of like just being early on a trend and just being, you know, like quick with it. Like I think that, you know, for you, oh, man, lost my train of thought — Kev: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you. Dan: No, no. Kev: When people use a word that I don’t know, I always ask because then I’ll be like, you know, “That was nascent,” and then people would be like, “What did that mean?” Oh, you know, what it means is early on to the trends and whatnot, you know what I’m saying? So I didn’t mean to get you off track but I was — that’s a good word that I don’t know so I had to ask you real quick. I could have Googled it later but — Dan: Oh, no, no. I appreciate that. I know, people appreciate this too, just from like, you know, the conversation, for sure. No. So, normally, some of these things, editors, I’m like, “No, can you all take that out?” They’re like, “No, we’re leaving this in here,” because — Kev: Leave it in, editor.  Dan: They’ll learn too. But, yeah, man, I mean, like I said, you, the focus that you had with so much of the content that you put out and also just how you continue to enjoy it, I feel like that is the model. And I’m really excited for you and where you continue to grow and the fact that you’re leveraging your platform the way you have to put people on, I mean, that’s the dream.  I mean, I know that, you know, I’m definitely, you know, in the days of it, it could likely feel like a lot of work but, hey, man, you’re doing the work, man. And it’s much appreciated. Kev: Thank you, man. That truly means a lot, Dan. I appreciate you even saying that. And I’m glad that you think, you know, I’ll still be here in 5, 10 years because I hope too, you know? But if not, you know, I own a house in this small town. If you see me living in South Carolina, just figure out that it didn’t work. Dan: Hey, man. Kev: But I’ll still be happy. I’ll still be making videos or doing podcasts or something. Dan: And joy will be there. The joy will be there. For sure. Regardless. But, hey, man, Kev, this was great. I really appreciate you for making the time.  Kev: Thank you, man.  Dan: But before we let you go, anything you wanna plug the audience, let them know some of the content you got coming out with the streaming service? Kev: KevOnStage Studios. man, go to your app store, whether you’re on Apple, Android, Roku, Amazon, go to KevOnStage Studios, download that. Go ahead and subscribe for the year. Don’t worry about what’s on there. Just subscribe for the year. Trust me, it’ll be worth it.  We’ve got a lot of amazing things on there. We got the Real Comedians Challenge Show, which is just knockdown drag out funny. We’ve got What’s Good?! which is a food show with comedians and comedians are more like regular people than chefs so you’re gonna feel like it’s you and your friends going out to eat in a different city.  We got Love On Stage, which is a dating show my wife created and produced. That’s fantastic. You can stream that whole season in there. Just fun stuff like Get Your Black Card Off Layaway shows, Keon’s All Stars, Crafts and Cocktails, just fun stuff, man. Just go on there, check it out. Destination Evrywhr is an amazing travel show that, you know, has a musician who went all the way to Cambodia to make music with Cambodians. We have stuff like that.  I mean, just go over there and check it out, man. Just don’t worry about the monthly fee. Don’t pay monthly. Pay by the year. You get two months free when you pay by the year. Just go ahead, go from here, wherever you’re listening, right to KevOnStage Studios and pay for the year. You won’t regret it. And even if you do, we already have your money. Dan: We’ll make it easy for people too. We’ll put the link in the show notes. Kev: Perfect. Thank you so much, Dan. I really appreciate it. I’m a big fan of yours. I’ve been watching your podcast and be like, “How does Dan get these guests?” And then you tweeted like I just be asking, I was like That ain’t no secret. That’s just — He’s like you just know somebody or just shoot your shot. I’m like, you had Rick Ross though, man. You had Issa Rae. And you’re like, “Yeah, just ask.” I’m like, “Okay, we’ll see how that works, Dan. I’m gonna just ask too, see what I can get on my podcast.” Dan: I will say, I mean, there’s something a bit more nuanced to that and I was like, you know what, I could have added more because I made it seem like, “Oh, y’all could do it. Why don’t you just DM Rick Ross?” Kev: Yeah. I was like, “Dan, it is not that easy.” It is not that easy and you know that. I just believe all we got to do is DM him and he’ll be like, “Yeah, I’m gonna be on there.” You know it took more than that, Dan. Dan: Oh, man. Well, no. So ’cause I think people probably appreciate this for the folks that do listen. So the Rick Ross one, real quick, so the Rick Ross one, I had had his attorney, Leron Rogers, on the pod. Him and I had had a good conversation and, you know, stayed connected afterward and I saw that Ross was putting out a book and I was like, “Alright, if someone’s put out a book, they’re gonna be on the tour,” and then I was like, “Okay, hey, you know, I know that Rozay is gonna be on the tour, would love to have him, he’s writing about business. This literally is the avenue to do that.” And he was like, “Alright, send me some details, let me see what I can make work,” and then we made it work after that.  Kev: See? Dan: Yeah. Kev: It is more than just DM-ing. It’s timing, it’s relationship, it’s an audience people care about and a podcast that people actually watch and download. So, sorry, guys, it’s not as easy as Dan made it seem. Dan: No, you’re right. If someone has to be, “Oh, hey, how did you get KevOnStage on your pod?” I’d be like, “Oh, I just DM-ed him. Y’all could do it too.” You gotta get all these people flooded. They will be like, “Oh, KevOnStage, can you come to do my thing? Oh, KevOnStage — Kev: Guarantee you it’s not gonna be that easy. ’cause if I don’t follow you, I don’t even really see your DMs. I’m a fan of Dan so I saw his and I already wanted to be on this show so when he asked, I was like, “Finally, my time is now.” Dan: It’s funny, man, because I so remember, it’s like one day on Twitter and, I mean, like I said, I’ve been following you on, you know, all the other platforms. And then, one day, you just quote tweeted something I said and you were like, “Y’all should follow this guy.” And I was just like — Kev: Yes. Dan: Yo, KevOnStage — I was just like, okay, all right, we hear this. Kev: ’Cause you’re really smart, man, and you take stuff that is like out there and you make it so digestible. Like what Westbrook is doing, I’ve been following them but when you made that graphic about the flywheel, it’s like, “This is exactly what they do,” but it makes so much — I sent that to so many of my friends.  I was like, this is what KevOnStage Studios has to become and the way they did The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air reunion, all of the stuff they did with that and then they ran that same thing back for King Richard, genius. And then with Will’s Best Shape of My Life, I watched that, get YouTube to pay for it, boom, use it to actually lose weight and promote your book. Dan: Brilliant. Kev: I said what the heck? I wanted to get the book because of that. Genius level marketing and even somebody as big as Will Smith, everything they do is not behind the paywall. They gotta use YouTube and Instagram just like regular people. So I know I’m on the right track.  And I also met Will Smith, I don’t know if you know that. I don’t like to talk about it.  Dan: Oh, no, you only post a photo, what? Every month or so. Kev: I haven’t posted in a while. I should bring it up again today. Dan: If he wins this Oscar for Best Actor, you gotta be part of that campaign. Kev: He might thank me from the podium. He might be like, “This wouldn’t have worked without KevOnStage’s dad joke to help promote the film. I’m so glad that he did that and that’s why you heard about King Richard,” and I’m gonna be like, “Thanks. You’re welcome, Will. And you’re welcome, world.” Dan: Oh, man. I’m kind of waiting for that moment, that will be dope. Kev: Oh, man, I’ll be so happy for him. I’ll be so happy. And he was great in that, like it was an Oscar-worthy performance so I really do hope he wins. Dan: Yeah, no, definitely. No, he does too. But, hey, man, this was great. I really appreciate you coming on. Kev: Thank you so much for having me, Dan. I appreciate it, man.  (outro) If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That’s how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you’re at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. This week, I’m running back an interview with another one of the most popular episodes we ever did with KevOnStage from early 2022. 


KevOnStage (Kevin Fredericks) is a comedian, producer, director, and entrepreneur behind KevOnStage studios.  


Today's episode talks about how he built an independent brand that really paid off his hard work. He established a solid fan base, had millions of followers on social media, and monetized these platforms by producing his hilarious viral content, a total blast in the mainstream.


Listen as we talk about what's going on in his business and his independent success, turning rejection into a massive opportunity to be where he is now.


Episode Highlights

[01:56] What KevOnStage is currently working on

[04:49] His take on more black content going in the mainstream

[06:53] KevOnStage’s motto, his marketing strategy, and business goals

[11:57] What it’s like to have autonomy in his brand

[19:08] His thoughts on artists knowing their audience and dealing with critics

[21:30] What's the process from the stuff put out on socials versus onstage

[25:24] How does he approach his game using different social platforms

[32:38] What’s something beyond just the monetary gain that makes him want to continue to feel inspired to create content

[35:13] His opinion on creators who are a one-platform-dominant

[38:21] Where does his most lucrative income come from 

[41:57] How he diversify his content to own the media and make his brand stand out

[45:51] What would he like to be doing more of

[51:28] KevOnStage’s new content to watch out for



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: KevOnStage Studios


This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 



TRANSCRIPT

Kev: So, sometimes partnering is great, sometimes licensing is great, sometimes selling is great sometimes. A good business person takes the best deal for what they need to get done.

(intro)

Dan: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I’m your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. 


Today’s guest is KevOnStage, the comedian, producer, director, and entrepreneur behind KevOnStage Studios. I’ve been following KevOnStage for years now. I think he’s one of the funniest people on the internet so it was so good to have this conversation. 


We talked about how he’s built his business and everything that he has done from how he creates content, how he thinks about what platforms he prioritizes, how that then provides insights for what he creates for his longer form content, what gets created from KevOnStage Studios, and, ultimately, the type of opportunities that he can offer for other creators and other entertainers that want to do, in many ways, largely the type of thing that he’s done. 


And we talked about where his streaming service sits in this ecosystem of the Netflixes and the Hulus and, in a lot of ways, even though those streaming services may have their black voices tabs, that’s not quite the type of content that is what Kev is making so he’s really finding his niche, doubling down there, and how he uses the insights from that to infer what gets made, that is how many creators have been very successful so so much of that is very relatable. 


This is also probably one of the interviews I’ve laughed in the most. He’s hilarious, like I said. This is a great conversation. I really hope you enjoy it. Here’s my chat with KevOnStage.


(interview)

Dan: All right, we got my guy KevOnStage here. Kev, you are one of the busiest people that I’d seen from 2021. Now we’re next year, man. How you feeling? Fresh year, how is it?


Kev: I’m excited, man. We’ve got a lot of new things we’re working on. I’m really excited, man. It’s always fun to be at the beginning of a project, not knowing where it’s going or how far it may go and that’s kind of where I am now. All the things I’m like, “Oh, soon as I get back, soon as I get back, I’m gonna start working on that.” That time is here now so I’m really excited.


Dan: That what’s up. Because I feel like for you, you got a few things that are already in motion that have been working well. Your content’s good. You got that machine going. But the Studio, I feel like that’s the really exciting thing that’s been growing.


Kev: Listen, man, I’m working on my own flywheel, okay? Westbrook, they got their flywheel, fast IP, that was the best graphic I’ve ever seen that you made. 


Dan: Oh, thank you. 


Kev: I was like, “This is what I wanna do. I wanna do everything from Instagram videos to selling shows.” So, you know, and they all have their own value so that’s what’s exciting. I have the same amount of joy from making a funny reel like I posted of Angel falling in the challenge show, it was just — I spent 20 minutes on that, really just getting the fall right. 


And then I came here, you know, I went on location scout right before I came here to this new show we’re working on and then this podcast, like they’re all exciting for different reasons so I’m trying to enjoy it all. 


Dan: Yeah. I think the cool thing with that, you get to wear multiple hats and I know, with this, there’s a number of things that interest you about this, right? Like you enjoy comedy, you have that piece, but I also know that you like to put people on. You wanna use your platform to do that. 


So I feel like you being able to wear each of those hats and do those things gives you that opportunity to provide all of that.


Kev: Absolutely, man. I think there’s the old saying of the church, “We’re blessed to be a blessing,” and that’s kind of what I wanna do. People have given me opportunities, partnerships with, you know, people have helped lift me, and I just wanna pass along the same thing. 


For me, my platform isn’t about me shining alone, you know what I mean? I tell my friends all the time, I want us all in the gated community. One things I used to do at all deaths that I found a lot of joy in was give people their first great reel or first time directing or whatever and I found that I had as much joy doing that as making somebody laugh. 


And KevOnStage Studios is really just a more expensive version of that. So, we wanna give people their first time PA-ing or help you get into the wardrobe union or makeup union. It’s hard for black people to get into those places but we need black people in those spaces so that’s kind of what we’re working towards doing. 


And then even simple things like our editor, one of our editors likes improv so it’s like, “Hey, you wanna be in an episode?” Things like that are great too because I want people to be able to scratch their own creative itch and that’s kind of what my passion is. 


Dan: What I like about KevOnStage Studios is that, sure, I think there’s a lot of attention right now with, “Oh, there’s so much black content out there on your Netflix,” your this and this, but what you’re doing is like you’re saying, that’s true to an extent but it really isn’t true for a lot of the people that I think could have the opportunities to be put on in this era.


Kev: Yeah. I was just watching Abbott Elementary this morning where I was shaving and I was just like, man, this show is amazing, and to see somebody like Quinta Brunson who — my first time seeing her was on Instagram. Her “Girl who’s never been on a nice date, a large, he must got — he got money. He could —” like from that to a network sitcom. 


And even shows like South Side, which I don’t know their story as much, but the show is amazing, that’s great. But then there’s a lot of creators who have those similar ideas and absolutely no path to HBO, Comedy Central, ABC, Netflix. 


Even me, like I’ve pitched to a lot of people and I had a lot of, “Uh-huh, we’ll circle back.” And, you know, that was 2018, ’19, you know, pandemic killed off anything I had going in Hollywood so I want to be that same network for people who can’t get all the way to Hollywood, you know, like here’s your chance to get to, you know, Hollywood adjacent — North Hollywood, if you will. 


You’re right over the hill, you just — you know, it’s cheaper in North Hollywood. You know, there’s more taco trucks, you know? And your number 15 minutes of real Hollywood, you know, that’s what KevOnStage Studios, it’s the North Hollywood of Hollywood. We’re right there. We’re right there. But it’s a one-bedroom washer and dryer stacked, you know?


Dan: Exactly. 


Kev: That’s a leg up from having to go to a laundry mat. 


Dan: Yes, that’s true. It’s true.


Kev: Stackable’s good, man. I’ll take a stackable.


Dan: Right, right. It’s one of those things, right? It’s like location and all that, you can’t pick everything with these things. You can pick two, and, Kev, you’re gonna give them two.


Kev: Laundry is a huge plus. Location and a stackable, I’m like, “Bet, let’s do it.” 


Dan: Well, I think the good thing with it is that — because I know in past interviews, you’ve talked about, hey, with this model, this is something you wanna provide the opportunity. But from a business perspective, I know that it’s not something that you necessarily need like a ton of subscribers to reach some point or you’re not trying to reach like Netflix scale necessarily, it’s something that can sit beside that. 


But with that, I’m sure you also have goals from the business side as well as the impact side with the service. So, what does that look like from a streaming service perspective?


Kev: Yeah, that’s a great, great question. It’s like — I heard this example somewhere. They’re like, you know, somebody’s saying you’re not gonna beat Walmart at selling everything at a low price, right? They’re gonna beat you if you’re starting out. What you can beat them at is selling a lot of one thing, right? 


Because they sell so many things for a low price, they can’t sell a lot of any one thing so they’re gonna have, you know, maybe one or two black shaving kits, maybe Bevel and maybe one other thing. If you have a black beauty supply store, people are gonna be like, “Well, Walmart doesn’t have what I’m looking, here I can go get some weave, you know, a do rag, I can get Bevel, I can get seven other, I get essential oils, I can get Dixons,” you know?


So that’s our motto, like we’re not — Netflix has an $8 billion content budget. They made Squid Game to Red Notice with the Rock — we can’t compete with that, right? But they don’t have black people learning how to play spades. They don’t have that video. They don’t have, you know, the Real Comedians Challenge Show, they don’t have things like that, right? 


So we wanna over serve a population that is being served by Hollywood but it’s not the primary focus, you know what I mean? Right now, we’re in an area of, we’re sorry, black people Hollywood, like, man, we really discriminate against you guys for a long time and you guys caught us out on it. 


So we’re reaping the benefits of all that, you know, time where we weren’t, you know, getting our just due. But even then, there’s still so many other shows that can’t be made to this audience and that’s kind of what we wanna fill. We wanna make stuff for black people who don’t see themselves on Netflix, you know? 


This church show that we’re working on, you know, is for black people who grew up in the church from a point of view of somebody who also grew up in the church and worked in the church, like if you grew up in the church like me, you know, there’s never really been a true church show from people who grew up in there. 


There’s people who attended but not people who like worked in ministry, and Netflix might not see the value in making a show like that and that’s where we come in, and we wanna serve that audience. All that content where they can’t get it on Netflix. 


And also I’m not even saying you don’t have to have Netflix, like I ain’t gonna lie to you, Dan, I watch my Netflix, I watch Hulu, HBO Max, like as a consumer, there’s stuff that I wanna watch too, like Game of Thrones one through four. 


Dan: Yeah, one through four. One through four.


Kev: One through four. Insecure, like all those shows. Of course we’re not even here to say “Don’t watch Netflix” and “Boycott Netflix” like I won’t even ask you to do that because I’m not gonna do that. But, you know, sometimes you want a nice steak dinner at a five-star restaurant, sometimes you just want a taco truck, you know, and you can’t get that experience. 


When you really want a street taco or the corn man selling elotes, you know, a big steak dinner is not gonna do it. So that’s all we wanna be, man. We just a little taco truck on the street, man, just pull up real quick, get you three little tacos, you know what I’m saying? Some Jarritos and a little elote and go on about your way. You’re not gonna bring your wife here to propose to her. But if you’re in between work, you know, this Kevin taco, that’s KevOnStage Studio, just a little street taco place on the side.


Dan: Right. And then with Netflix too, that’s the place that has all the good ratings of the people that know what’s up.


Kev: And that’s the thing. You know, somebody gotta tell you about this place. “Hey, man, you gotta go over there. Trust me.” And when you — and that’s kind of how we’re growing, right? We don’t have the marketing budget like Netflix, right? When Netflix came out, yet get three months free, a year free. They had billboards and buses in Times Square. We don’t have that.


Our thing is like, “Yo, there’s this funny show on this network called KevOnStage Studios, you gotta check it out.” Or you see a funny clip on TikTok and you wanna see the rest of the video, that’s our marketing right now. Word of mouth, your boy telling you, your girl telling you, or you seeing a clip and you wanna see more.


Dan: Right. I think I heard you made the analogy once of the Sally’s Beauty Supply as opposed to, you know, what you may see at the traditional place like a Walmart, right? And I think even with that, it’s like, you know, from a haircare perspective, you know what, yeah, Walmart may have that can of Sportin’ Waves but I may want something a little more serious if you wanna make sure the wave’s spinning, right? You gotta get something a little —


Kev: Absolutely. They might just have Sportin’ Waves but they’re not gonna have Murray’s, they’re not gonna have Sulfur8, Just For Me, they might just have one thing. And that’s kind of, yeah, that’s exactly what we wanna do here, man, and we’re having a good time doing it.


Dan: That’s great, man. That’s great. I think that, in a lot of ways, like we were saying before, that’s how you identify the elements of your flywheel and where everything sits and how you’re able to foster not just your platform but the other opportunities and what I think it does at the end of the day, it narrows in, okay, what is the KevOnStage brand? What does it stand for? And what type of opportunities you can create from that? 


Because I feel like with you specifically, you’ve now kind of hit this mode where I know you mentioned that, you know, you were knocking on the door of many folks in Hollywood or anywhere else and they weren’t necessarily letting you in, but now I feel like you’re kind of at this stage where you are doing well for yourself given everything you’ve built up independently.


You’re now able to leverage things. As you mentioned yourself, you got that Maserati, like you’re — like you’re showing from that perspective, right? But you got those things. 


I’m curious, though, because I know that — and as you know, definitely you have broken down a lot of the levels of what creators are and the creator economy and all those things, at this stage, you really do have the autonomy if you wanted to, okay, at this stage, would I wanna ever do some type of partnership or deal with one of these bigger distributors that are always trying to offer comedians or creators like yourselves the serious bag, 


but I’m curious from your stage right now, like is that something that would still entertain you? Like is that something that you would ever do?


Kev: I thought about it and it depends and I’ll tell you why. One of the best parts about being at KevOnStage Studios and not having to answer to a network is not having to answer to a network. If I wanna make a show, if I wanna cast whoever, no name or whatever, I don’t have to have anybody else say yes, you know, or no, right?


One thing is, you know, I learned when I shot my first pilot that a network paid for, when they pay for it, what they say goes, right? So in this instance, they were like, “Take this joke out and this joke out and this joke out,” during the notes process and then when we shot it, 


they’re like, “This isn’t funny. This is not landing. We don’t think black people are gonna get this” so we took all that stuff out, even though we were fighting for it, at the end of the day, they won because we were small and we didn’t have as much power in the room, 


and at the end of the day, they passed on it because they said it wasn’t funny enough. We were like, “Well, you took everything funny out. How could it be funny?” So, you know, when you’re first starting out, the network has all the power because I’m not Denzel or Shonda Rhimes. If I got an opportunity, they’re gonna tell me what it is, and fight as I may, it’s gonna be what they say. 


But here, we can make what we want to make and I think that autonomy is very freeing and it allows me to make what I know is good and funny. Like one of the things that I pride myself on is knowing my audience and what they will like and all that stuff. 


And, you know, even when I do like brand deals, you know, especially early on, I would have less power and I would have to basically say whatever the brand said and it would come out corny, and I’d be like my audience would hate it and they could smell the fakeness from a mile away. 


As I’ve grown. I’ve been like, “Hey, I’m gonna tell you right now that’s not gonna work. Trust me, let me do it this way and it always goes over better.” So, in that instance, I love the autonomy. 


However, if we were able to partner with someone, it allows us to make things at a greater scale and provide more opportunities for other people and do things a lot easier. You know, everything we do now, we gotta figure it out, you know, when your mom came home, the kitchen bare, the cupboard’s bare, she’s like, okay, we got two chicken thighs, some corn, you know, some breadcrumbs, make something work. That’s where we’re at, you know what I’m saying? 


At the end of the day, you’re like, “Hey, low key, that was kind of fire for what we had,” but you’d also love to just go to the grocery store and get everything you want. So, right now, I’m loving the freedom, but as we grow, I wouldn’t say no to an opportunity to do more and maybe employ more people for certain projects. 


I don’t think there’s ever a world where everything I do, I answer to somebody. I always want to be able to create something that I want to create without having to answer to anybody. But, you know, if Warner Brothers said, “Kev, we’re gonna offer 140 million to develop some stuff,” well, yes. Yes, I would — I’ll take a little 140 mil, yeah.


Dan: Right, right. And that’s the thing, right? It’s like you have the clear strategy and from an overall perspective, it sounds like, hey, I know that overall deals are the wave, that’s not necessarily what I’m looking for. However, if that number is right, I’m not gonna not have the conversation. We’re going to talk about it


Kev: Absolutely — like look what Tyler Perry did, right? And I’ve watched his career and tried to mimic it to the best of my ability, which I haven’t done that well yet. But, you know, still working. But, you know, he leveraged the early Lionsgate deals into his own pocket, like, you know, he partnered with them and they were able to finance those movies and he did X, Y, Z, boom, boom. And then the capital that he got from that, he was able to finance his own shows. 


So sometimes, partnering is great sometimes, licensing is great sometimes, selling is great sometimes. A good business person takes the best deal for what they need to get done, right? So I wouldn’t say that, you know, part of our business model is if I can make a show, you know, at our margins and I can license it to you in the first window, I can make a great margin there and now I’ve done two things, 


I’ve made the show and I made the show I want and I might, you know, right now, there’s a lot of, you know, places that have more distribution than we do 


so if you wanna take it off our hands, we made our money back and you wanna, you know, stream it, then you’ve just introduced a lot more people to KevOnStage Studios and they can come back to the app and watch the other stuff we’ve made. 


So that’s definitely part of our plan and that would help us make more shows. So even if we sold that one and they own the rights to it, I wouldn’t cry because we can make eight more shows with what we sold that one for. 


So it’s about making the right business, you know, choice at the right time and not being like, “I wanna own it all,” like, I mean, obviously, I wanna own it all but that also comes with its own risks, which means you have to finance it all. And if it sucks, you’ve lost everything, you know? Everything you spent. 


So that’s a risk that you don’t want to have to take every time, you know? Sometimes, you wanna take it when it’s near and dear to your heart, but not — every time? You wanna reach into your own pocket every time? You know? Not every time. So, yeah, we’re always keeping our options open to the right partnership whenever that may come.


Dan: Yeah, I think that’s the healthy and best way to look at it, because as both of us, people that spent a lot of time on Twitter, we know how big — everyone wants to own everything, right? But until you’re actually in it, you don’t realize how much nuance there is with all of that and I really look at these things as a spectrum, as you do, and I think the best people have a mix of both of these things. 


And like you said, I know that, you know, you mentioned Tyler Perry as a model, the same way that you know how to create this content and do it at a way it’s affordable, that’s essentially what he did with like Meet the Browns, right? Boom, let me go sell this to TBS and now we got cable distribution for however many years, you know, he’s been doing that.


Kev: Absolutely, and hardly anybody in Hollywood could shoot at the rate he shoots at. So his margins are much lower than a traditional network or even cable. So I mean, you know, Tyler, you see articles, they shot 20 episodes in six days —


Dan: Wild.


Kev: — nobody would even attempt that, you know? And BET was like, yeah, we’ll take more. We’ll take whatever you got. So, for him, he knows his audience, he knows his business model, he knows it works. Critics don’t stop what he’s doing. And the numbers reflect that he’s doing the right thing. People criticize, come what may, but when them numbers come out, people are watching. 


So that’s one thing I’ve been thinking a lot about is like, especially if you’re on Twitter a lot, everything sucks, everybody hates everything, there’s nothing good, everybody’s wrong. But at the end of the day, somebody is watching that. 


So, you know, we’d be on Twitter trashing everything but somebody likes that show and they’re watching it weekly. So, Tyler’s learned to focus on those people who are enjoying it and tuning out people who don’t enjoy because they’re not — they don’t help his plan and that’s kind of what we’re doing here. 


Like we’re not trying to make everything for everybody. We’re trying to make a lot of stuff for the people who want to watch it. And then you grow, the same thing Tyler did, you have your base, you cater to that base, and you grow that base.


Dan: Yep. 


Kev: And if you do that, I mean, that’s tried and true. Like we were talking about earlier, you don’t need a lot of followers, you don’t need a whole bunch of people. You need people who are really excited and who want to come to your live show and buy a t-shirt, to support your Patreon, and get your app, you know? 


There’s so many creators with millions of followers but not a lot of active fans so when they try to go on tour or sell a t-shirt, people are like, “No, man, we don’t — we’re not — you know, post the thing on Instagram I like.” 


Dan: Right.


Kev: But I wanna do this. No, no, no. So I learned a long time ago, it’s better to have 500 really active fans than 5 million people who kinda like your stuff.


Dan: Definitely. And I feel like, with you, you’ve been able to see that in real life, like you are going on tour, you’re seeing these people in person, you’re getting all those reactions too. 


And you mentioned earlier about just insights and you being able to see what works and what doesn’t and I wonder, how much of that is based on just the feeling of, “Okay, this piece or this post really took off and then I’m gonna try to incorporate that into something,” or how much of it is also, you know, data driven as well where you’re looking at things, you know, precisely and you’re like, “Okay, like if I’m spending this much time here,” what’s that process like, you know, from the stuff you put out on socials versus what you may do on stage?


Kev: That’s a great question. For socials, the one thing I’ve learned about the internet is I don’t know anything about the internet. What goes viral? What works? Man? My best TikTok is me holding my son’s dog and talking about how black people —


Dan: Oh, does your dog know if you’re black? 


Kev: Does your dog know you’re black? If you’re Mexican, does your dog know you’re Mexican? If you’re white, does your dog know you’re white? That didn’t take a lot of thought. I literally was at home and he was about to get into something, I was like, and then I was like, I wonder if he knows that means stop in black, you know what I mean?


And then I wondered if a Mexican family has their own version of that. I just threw that up and it had — it’s got like 2.6 million views on TikTok. That is not the funniest video, it’s not the most relatable, it didn’t even do that well on Instagram or Twitter or whatever. I just throw it up against the wall. I let the internet decide what’s funny or not and I know some things tend to do well more than others. 


Any culture messing with black food in a way that’s not traditional, you mess with macaroni and cheese, it’s gonna get a lot of views, right? But, you know, I was making a lot of those food videos and then people were just — like I was getting every food video so I was like, okay, as a creator, even if it does get a lot of views, I don’t wanna be the food guy and I don’t wanna keep making the same video. 


So, part of my strategy is I make something that is funny, make something that’s relatable, or make something that I just think is funny. Or if I got nothing of that, then I’ll share another creator who’s funny. There’s been some days where I’m like, “Man, I don’t feel funny today,” and I’ll see somebody else’s video, I’ll be like, well, let me just share their stuff because there’s nothing I can do that’s as funny as this. 


So, you know, and I share and tag them and then I’m like, even if I didn’t make something funny, I fulfilled my promise to introduce you to new creators. So that’s kind of my strategy. And I just also am very consistent. Even if I don’t think the video’s great, I still post it because what’s great to me and what’s great to somebody else is very different. 


I’ve had a lot of videos that I think they’re hilarious that did absolutely nothing. And a lot of them, like my dog video that I didn’t think nothing of and just threw up, that went viral. Like I made this waffle house video probably four or five years ago, I mean, I was on my way to work, I was like, you know, I saw this article, it said Waffle House is dirty. And I’m just like nobody who eats at Waffle House cares about that. 


Dan: Right.


Kev: We know. That video went stupid viral. I mean crazy. And I didn’t even — it took less than 5 minutes total. Shoot, edit, post. And I did it — I wouldn’t advise this but I shot the whole thing on the freeway. I was driving to work, I always had my phone in my rearview mirror thing, hit record, said what I had to say, turned it off. When I got out of my car, I edited it, put the article next while I was walking to work. That thing went crazy. 


Didn’t think nothing of it. Just threw it up and so many people, that’s how they got introduced to me. So, you know, what do I know? I’ve been doing this 10 years now pretty consistently. So many things went viral that I would have never done. And, you know, that’s the nature of the internet.


Dan: Right, it’s like you know that there’s generally a type of content you put out that’s going to work, you put it out there and you just know that something’s gonna hit. It may not always be what you think is gonna hit, but you put it out there, for sure.


Kev: Absolutely, man. Let the people decide what’s fun. I mean, I did one video where I was yelling at my son, I use the term loosely, ’cause he had gotten good grades. It did like 7 million views on Twitter, 6, 7 million views, and I was just like, kids, puppies, they’re gonna work every time. 


So, you know, I try to exploit my dog while he’s still small. I don’t exploit my children as much. But the dog, he don’t even know how many videos. He does well. He’s earning his keep in the Fredericks household. 


Dan: One of the things I also, you know, like about how you approach your game is that you look at each social platform differently and you also know how to move to things, right? Like you know that Twitter is quick. You’re gonna — that’s gonna be the one that’s most current about things. 


But I know you’ve also put a lot more time into TikTok and just given, I think we saw the recent stats that TikTok, people spending more time on that now than Google, you know, you gotta be early on a lot of these platforms to rise. 


But there’s also things like Clubhouse, for instance, where, you know, I think things rose and then, you know, it dipped and I’m curious, how do you approach that? Like do you know that there’s certain ones where you’re like, “Okay, there’s something here, let me double down here,” like what’s your method for that type of thing?


Kev: You have a lot of good questions, man. This is why you — you should do a podcast, maybe a newsletter as well about hip hop and entertainment. What I try to do, one of my, you know, things that I’ve noticed works well is using a platform how that platform was designed to be used. 


So Twitter, the best thing is tweeting, like writing, like writing out funny tweets, whether you’re trending, relatable, whatever. I post my videos — the only reason I post my videos on Twitter is because people would rip my videos and post — because videos didn’t do well on Twitter for me for a long time and the only reason I posted on there now is because people would rip my videos and post them and they’d do better on Twitter than I ever would have thought,


so I was like, well, nobody’s gonna be getting them if I’m not gonna get them. But as far as TikTok, I always try what’s new incoming. I’ve tried, I mean, Vine. You want to talk about the worst creator ever on Vine? Kevin — I mean, I couldn’t get Vine to work for nothing. 


I made a Vine one time, Dan, and I’m lucky you can’t find it. And I was like making toast and I put a piece of bread in the oven and then the Vine cut and I had like half a second left and I was like, “Burnt,” and it was just a piece of burnt bread. And I was like, I don’t — I’m gonna stop doing this. This is literally the worst Vine ever. 


I tried Socialcam, Periscope, Clubhouse, spaces, Fleets, Stories, Snapchat. I’ve tried everything. Part of it for me is like, let’s talk about TikTok, for example. TikTok was a new — there were so many fun ways to edit on there, editing was more seamless, they had all those backgrounds. So, as a creator, it was just fresh. 


But anytime children are using something, the user base is gonna grow. And I think TikTok used to be Musical.ly and I remember my niece was on Musical.ly a long time ago so my strategy is always dip my toes in the water, see what works, find out how that platform works specifically. 


I realized what I learned about TikTok is you gotta be even quicker than other places on TikTok. I’m talking about people are scrolling like almost like this. You got like maybe 6, 7 seconds on Instagram, you got like 2.3 on TikTok and you can buy 3 seconds if you put the caption. 


It took me a long time to realize you had to write the caption on the video because people are not looking down to, I believe it’s the left to see what you’re saying so you gotta figure out, stop their system for one second and say when this be like or baby like or whatever. That’s step one and now you might have their attention. 


Using whatever trend is popping or whatever music is popping, now that’s step two. Now, you got them for 7, 8 seconds, now you may have a chance. But almost all of these platforms are, “Is it funny? Is it entertaining? Is it educational? Or is it relatable?” If you’re doing one of those of the four, you’ll be better off, but like I was a long winded person so I was on Periscope early and I stayed for a long time and I have so many of the people who are now on the Stage Crew is what we call our group of fans are — 


I used to go on Periscope every day while I drove to work. I was stuck in traffic for an hour and a half, I’d be on Periscope for an hour. And I just chopped it up. I’ve seen video ideas. And so many people loved it and they stuck with me for a long time. And another thing I do, I know I’m just rambling, I test out concepts on platforms, right? 


So I’ll tweet something and if that tweet does numbers, then I’ll be like, “Bet, I’ll make a video of that.” Like, for example, Uberfacts tweeted, “What’s —” This is a trend maybe last week. Uberfacts tweeted, “What’s a company’s secret you can spill now that you don’t work there anymore?” and I was like, oh, I worked at the bank. 


I quote tweeted, “The bank does actually overdraw you on purpose,” like a lot of people used to accuse us of that and we would have to lie but they actually do it on purpose. It had like 26,000 retweets so I’m like, okay, that’s great, that means people are interested. Now let me screenshot that, go to TikTok, and make the talking version of that. 


And then I put that video on TikTok, did well. Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, did well. And then a couple of days later, I put the video version of a tweet that went viral right back on Twitter with my own tweet and it also went well. 


And I’ll do that all the time. If I’m not sure video work, I’ll post it on my stories and I’ll check the engagement. If I get over 50 shares or 100 shares, I’m like, “Oh, I’ll take that off and put it on the main grid.” Sometimes I’ll make a full video. So I’m kinda like seeding out content and seeing what people respond to and then deciding if I wanna make a full video after that. 


I have to do that now because I’m doing other projects. I used to just scour the internet for videos all day but because we’re making stuff for the app and stuff, I don’t have as much time so I’m kinda like throwing stuff against the wall, seeing what works, and then making full versions of that. 


And that’s kinda how I continue making content consistently while I’m really spending more time creating long-form content, where I’m on set 10, 12 hours a day. I just don’t have the time to be on the internet like I usually was so I’ve gotta like be more strategic about doing it.


Dan: That’s your fastlane IP model right there. You just broke it down.


Kev: Yeah. Absolutely, man. I’m just always moving in there. And my hope, one day, I wanna be like — do you remember, DC Young Fly early? He used roasting to rise him to fame and then he leveraged that into other stuff. Now he can use social media just to remind you of what he’s doing. 


One day, I’ll be able to be like, “Oh, my social media is just to remind you of what’s coming and going.” Or like Kevin Hart, like he’ll still come on every once in a while and remind you he’s hilarious on social media but he doesn’t need it as a vehicle as much as he used to. 


That’s my goal, when I can go a week or a month without making something funny, and people still are checking in. But I’m probably a little ways away from that.


Dan: What do you think that would look like to get there? Like is there a particular number or do you feel like it’s like a feeling of where you are in your career?


Kev: I think — what it really will probably be is when I’m shooting so many things that take up my full day, when I’m shooting 10, 12 hours on set, it’s really hard to make a great internet video that day, because I’m not on the internet because I’m shooting. When I’m on break, I might be scanning but, you know, the lunch on set is 30 minutes, if that, feels like. 


By the time you sit down and eat and then you’re back on set for 6 hours. If I was doing that for three months, it’d be tough to make the same amount of content that I’m making. So if I was basically doing those kinds of projects back to back, then I know my social media will suffer in the sense of creating at the pace I usually did. 


My only hope is that the monetary benefit from my other projects will, you know, keep me afloat. I mean, obviously, I don’t make crazy money, well, relative, from the actual platform, it’s all about leveraging them to make money off the platform. But, you know, we still get paid from Tik— 


I mean, not TikTok, I mean, technically TikTok but I make no money off that. Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube so my hope is that I’ve got so many projects that I’m making, either from my own distribution service or for somebody else or a partner or something we’ve sold, that I’m like, “Man, I’m making too many things, I don’t have time to like see what the TikTok trend is.”


But, honestly, Dan, I like making videos so much. If I was on my lunch break, scanning through TikTok, I will make a video, because it doesn’t take me that long. My best skill isn’t funny, isn’t being hard working, it’s efficiency. When I’m inspired, I can download, shoot, and post in no time. 


And TikTok, God bless them, so happy you can just click download for most videos. Don’t make me go through screen recording and down— that’s too much. You want people to share these anyway, make it easy. So, I can do a whole thing in less than 5 minutes so as long as I got 5 minutes, I’ll probably make something.


Dan: Yeah. I feel like that’s what drives it at the end of the day, right? Like there has to be something beyond just the monetary gain to make you wanna continue to feel inspired to create and that’s great that you have that still with the videos. 


I mean, I definitely sense that from the joy and passion that you share out of it, but I think for a lot of people that do create content on the internet and then that is the awareness they build to sell elsewhere, they ideally would just love to sell the other thing but the internet feels like this thing that they have to do. 


So the fact that you don’t feel that, I mean, I’m sure it’s still exhausting, for sure. But the fact that you don’t feel that naturally, I think, is what helps that longevity.


Kev: Absolutely. I think, you know, we all deal with like burnout or not feeling funny or feeling like I’m never gonna come up with any other idea. But I see the value in using these platforms but also leveraging them to your own stuff, like being an early YouTube creator when adpocalypse happened and Logan Paul did that suicide forest thing and everybody’s monetization was punished, that’s the first time I was like, “Oh, snap. I didn’t even have nothing to do with this. I never been to Japan. I would never. Why am I getting punished?”


That’s the first time I was like, “I can’t rely on these platforms,” and then when Vine came and went, even though I sucked at Vine, there was a lot of people where they depended on Vine and, luckily, most of the creators who were big leveraged that to Snapchat or Instagram or YouTube but some of them never even got close to the heights that they had on Vine. 


And the same thing happened on Instagram or TikTok or whatever. You know, a lot of people are one platform dominant, killing it on TikTok but nowhere else big. I would rather be five platforms doing okay than one platform dominant because now I can go from TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, into my own platform, Patreon, which is fantastic. It’s very important to what we do here. If I only had Patreon, I’d be okay. 


So, you know, I’ve kind of like made my exit strategy because the Internet changes too quick, you know? One day it’s popping — Clubhouse, man, people were — it was the thing for like 5 months and then everybody — it felt like everybody was just like, “Nah,” like one day, and it’s still there, it still have great stuff going on there, but during the pandemic, man, it launched — or not launched but it popped at a perfect time when everybody was at home. 


Dan: Right. 


Kev: But then people just got sick of people talking and Facebook came up with their own one and Twitter came up with their own one and then Clubhouse didn’t have, you know, that exclusive thing anymore. I mean, that’s — you talk about a quick pivot. 


Dan: Yeah.


Kev: You know, Clubhouse, how quickly Twitter jumped on that, that was fast. It took Instagram a long time to copy Snapchat. 


Dan: Yeah, and —


Kev: It took Twitter, it felt like 2 months before they had —


Dan: Yeah, Spaces was quick.


Kev: I was like, Jesus, and the thing that Facebook did really well is kind of what Twitter did too. They said, “We’re not gonna beat Snapchat’s market share, and we don’t have to. All we need to do is slow their growth and get somebody who was never gonna go to Snapchat to do what they would have done on Instagram.”


My wife is that person. She never went on Snapchat ever. But they took that idea and that, you know, Stories, put it in Instagram, and she was like, “Oh, I’ll do this.” And I was like, “Girl, I’ve been telling you about Snapchat.” She was like, “I’m not downloading no more apps.”


And that’s the same thing. So you — that’s why I never wanna be one platform dominant because the winds, they blow and change too quickly and you could be caught in the cold, you know? Like YouTube, man, YouTube decided on a whim, it felt like, family content, if it looks like it’s geared towards kids, you’re not gonna be able to monetize that. 


People went from making hundreds of thousands of dollars a month to zero. When they decided they didn’t want pranks anymore, people went from making 50 grand, 150 grand a month to like literally zero, I’m not even exag— I know people who had to give up their house in the Hollywood Hills when YouTube was like, “We’re not doing that no more.”


And that’s when I was like, “Oh, this is too dangerous to be only on one platform.” You gotta use them all but you also have to have an exit strategy. To me, you know? Everybody doesn’t have to do that but, to me, you gotta have an exit strategy.


Dan: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. And I think the way you structured it makes sense too. I mean, yeah, you mentioned you’re still getting some income from those platforms but the majority is outside of it. 


And I’m curious, what do your splits and breakdowns look like from a percentage perspective of, you know, like how much does come from those platforms versus how much comes from your other content or your stand-up or any of the other ticketed type of things?


Kev: So, the most lucrative by a mile is live events. Touring, live events is the most lucrative. That’s why when the pandemic happened, I was like, “Oh my God,” because that — before the pandemic, that was foolproof. As long as people wanted to come see you, you will be able to eat forever, and then all of a sudden, no. 


So, for me, the most important thing is touring. The second most important thing probably is my Patreon, because that’s a group of people who really believe in what we’re doing here and support me and if I lost my other platforms, they would still be there. 


Outside of that, YouTube and Facebook, YouTube was really consistent monetarily. Facebook can be a blow up, for me at least, a blow up and then nothing. You have some months where it’s, you know, 2 grand and some months it could be 10 grand, you know what I mean? 


So it’s like, you really can’t build a business off of that, you know, wave of, you know, unpredictability. But for me, I probably say 60 percent is live, 40 percent is — or I’m sorry, 20 percent is Patreon, and the other is like podcasting. Podcasting can be really lucrative with the ad revenue. It’s also platform agnostic. Like I don’t need to be monetized on YouTube because I’m monetized through the ads that are baked into the podcast, you know? 


So, for me, those are what I focus on and everything else is gravy. Whatever Instagram pays me, gravy. Whatever Facebook pays me, gravy. Whatever YouTube pays me, gravy. And those are the things I have the least amount of control over anyway so, yeah.


Dan: That makes sense, yeah, and I think like that split too, honestly sounds like what it’s like for a lot of artists as well. I mean, so much comes from live performances, more than half for most of them, but that other chunk, you know, whether it’s through their branded partnership or any of their influencer revenue that they may have but also what they get actually selling their music through streaming or the publishing revenue that comes in. 


So there’s definitely a ton of similarities there, which is why I like the model of what you all, and what you specifically have done to build it up. But I think the difference though is that I probably see a little bit more creativity on average from some of the more successful independent comedians than maybe some of the more, you know, successful artists.


I feel like there’s been more of like a standard path but whether it’s you or some of the others that have, you know, risen up, especially in the past 5 to 7 years, there’s definitely, you know, I think a bit more variety and, you know, especially whether they’re building their own studios or they’re trying to do a few more creative brand partnerships and deals, I’ve always been fascinated with that piece about how comedians and stand-ups are able to monetize and use the internet.


Kev: Absolutely, and I think like look at any 85 South, man, like they have — their live event is huge. And then they can just put that exact video on YouTube or their app and they sell merch and even if they did nothing else but live shows and merch, they’d probably be okay, but now, they’re building their own app out. It’s already out there, the Channel 8, and they’re expanding that.


So, you know, another smart thing, like let me diversify what we’re doing and own the media aspect of it. But, for me, that’s merch and brand deals like, to me, it’s hard to be good at everything, you know what I mean? So I don’t try to be. 


I’m like merch, I’ll focus on the road, if I have a great idea, but it’s not my strong suit, because fashion and design aren’t my strong suits so I’ll just really make stuff for the Stage Crew who loves it. And I’ll focus on live events, video content, and podcasting and I’ll be strong there. 


I mean, you got people like Kountry Wayne who like master of Facebook and Instagram, like he knows the amount, you gotta be at least 3 minutes to get really paid. His sketches are 3:01. They’re gonna be over 3. On Instagram, they start really quick so he’s mastered that and he’s also on the road. 


So everybody has their skill set and it’s kinda like, to me, basketball players, like LeBron’s the greatest player to me, ever, and he’s good at a lot of different things. Steph is the best shooter ever so he doesn’t have to be a rebounder like LeBron because he’s gonna shoot threes from the logo so you won’t be able to guard him. 


And that’s kinda how I think of creators, like very few people are as well rounded as LeBron but you can have a long career being really good at one or two things and that’s fine too.


Dan: Yeah. And as long as the platforms that are there are still aligned to like where your skill set is the better.


Kev: Yeah.


Dan: Because it’s one of those things where Steph also was really good at something that he was able to set a trend with and, you know, just gotten more and more favorite too as the game went on. But it’s like if you’re really good at, you know, like that Charles Oakley, you know, old school right? This next game, you might not have as long of a career is you may have had in ’93.


Kev: That’s a fantastic point. Charles Oakley wouldn’t know what to do in this game, like he’s still gonna be big and strong but he’s gonna be guarding Luka or Kevin Durant and they shooting from three, they’re driving around, the game has changed so that’s a good point as well like the game changes so you have to be able to, you know, change with the game. The internet changes. 


The same thing with comedy, like what was funny and tweetable 10 years ago isn’t funny or tweetable this year, and I’m not one of those who complains about cancel culture. As a comedian, our job is to know where the line is. Know what society thinks is funny and stay there and not to be like, “Well, this was funny 12 years ago.” 


Yeah, The Nutty Professor was hilarious before but it wouldn’t be as funny if it was made now. People would call it fat phobic or whatever. But if you watched it then, it was great, you know what I’m saying? Pepé Le Pew, hilarious as a kid. Now you’re like, “Yo, what’s was he on, man? Where’s the consent? Leave her alone, man. Let her go,” you know?


So I think comedy and everything is similar. Everything is changing. Fashion, language, music, all of that stuff. So, you know, as a creator, you have to be aware of that change or you get left behind.


Dan: Yeah. And to bring it full circle, what you brought up with Vine is a great example of this. You yourself may not have been the most successful on that platform, like you said, but there are many people who had some of the most popular Vines that were like winning and spread everywhere. And, unfortunately, I just haven’t seen them as much because there’s something about that 6-second storytelling that they did so well with that just didn’t translate as well to where things are right now.


Kev: Absolutely. 100 percent. That’s what I was saying, like some people translated but for some people, that was it. They never reached the heights they had on Vine ever again, you know? And some of the same trends on Vine probably would work on TikTok but not exactly. 


So, you know, you gotta get in where you fit in and fit for as long as you can. And then, as the world changes, you gotta fit there too. And that’s, to me, the only way to survive.


Dan: Definitely. So, for you, just because you are wearing, as we talked about, all these different hats, all these different roles, 5 years from now, 10 years from now, of course, we don’t know where things are going, but in the ideal scenario, what would you like to be doing more of or what would you like to be doing less of?


Kev: More of helping other creators create their content. That’s actually one of the things we wanna do at KevOnStage Studios. It’s the hardest part though. Much harder than I realized, you know, to even maybe make somebody else’s show, to even go through the legal process of trying to make it is already expensive. 


So I found that that part was a lot harder than I realized. If somebody comes in and is like, “Yeah, whatever deal is fine,” it’s very easy. If somebody is like, “I’ve got these ideas and stuff,” talking to their lawyer, our lawyer, it’s tough. And to do development, you need somebody who can focus on that, you need the resources for legal, you need the production staff to be able to go and make that. 


So I would hope that we could grow enough to be making more of stuff for other creators and creating those opportunities. Right now, we’re kind of focusing on building the foundation with the team we have. But in order to do that, we’d have to scale out a little bit so that would be our goal.


I would also love to be making independent movies. That’s always been a dream of mine. I just love the experience of movie, either in theaters or at home, I don’t care. I’m not like one of those creators, like, “It’s got to be in a movie or it ain’t real,” like I was poor so we couldn’t go to the actual movies that much so all my dreams and memories are watching them at home. 


So I don’t care if you’re watching it on your phone or TV or whatever, but I’d love to be doing those two things, if nothing else. Creating content with others and then creating movies and creating stuff that I would love to create and hopefully distributing it to a lot of people. 


The one thing about the KevOnStage Studios app right now, it’s still very small so, you know, to the viewer, that’s fantastic, but the other streamers and distribution sites, they have a lot more access. If I tell you to go watch a show on Netflix, the chances of you having Netflix are very high. Or HBO Max, something like that. 


If somebody tells you to go watch something on KevOnStage Studios, the chances of you already having that app are not as high as you having Netflix. So our goal, our hope would be that, “Oh, yeah, man, I’m gonna check that out. I didn’t even know we had that.” But you gotta have the show that breaks through. 


Like if you think about Apple TV, as much money as they have, people didn’t really click in by and large until Ted Lasso. Like I watched See, they had a lot of stuff. Nobody cared, by and large, until Ted Lasso. 


So even — and they have trillion dollars in cash. People were like, meh, you know what I’m saying? So it’s not just unique to what we’re doing, it’s a lot of places that struggle. Peacock and Quibi. Quibi had all the money in the world, access to every A-list star in the world, people were like meh, so it’s not easy, man. It is not easy. 


It’s not even unique to being small. It’s just not an easy business to be in. So I would just hope to still be here, in fact. Low key, to still be able to do this for a living in 5 years, I will be happy with just that.


Dan: No, man, I think you will. And I mean, I’m not just saying that as someone that’s been a fan of your content following you for a while. I mean —


Kev: Thank you, thank you. 


Dan: I really do look at you as one of the success stories when we think about this era of the Internet and what creators were able to do in this phase. I feel like we’ve seen folks in, you know, past eras and eras before that and the Internet has always been so nascent but I think your focus and consistency. Wait, which one?


Kev: I really don’t know. Nascent, what’s that?


Dan: Oh, in terms of like just being early on a trend and just being, you know, like quick with it. Like I think that, you know, for you, oh, man, lost my train of thought —


Kev: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you.


Dan: No, no.


Kev: When people use a word that I don’t know, I always ask because then I’ll be like, you know, “That was nascent,” and then people would be like, “What did that mean?” Oh, you know, what it means is early on to the trends and whatnot, you know what I’m saying? So I didn’t mean to get you off track but I was — that’s a good word that I don’t know so I had to ask you real quick. I could have Googled it later but —


Dan: Oh, no, no. I appreciate that. I know, people appreciate this too, just from like, you know, the conversation, for sure. No. So, normally, some of these things, editors, I’m like, “No, can you all take that out?” They’re like, “No, we’re leaving this in here,” because —


Kev: Leave it in, editor. 


Dan: They’ll learn too. But, yeah, man, I mean, like I said, you, the focus that you had with so much of the content that you put out and also just how you continue to enjoy it, I feel like that is the model. And I’m really excited for you and where you continue to grow and the fact that you’re leveraging your platform the way you have to put people on, I mean, that’s the dream. 


I mean, I know that, you know, I’m definitely, you know, in the days of it, it could likely feel like a lot of work but, hey, man, you’re doing the work, man. And it’s much appreciated.


Kev: Thank you, man. That truly means a lot, Dan. I appreciate you even saying that. And I’m glad that you think, you know, I’ll still be here in 5, 10 years because I hope too, you know? But if not, you know, I own a house in this small town. If you see me living in South Carolina, just figure out that it didn’t work.


Dan: Hey, man.


Kev: But I’ll still be happy. I’ll still be making videos or doing podcasts or something.


Dan: And joy will be there. The joy will be there. For sure. Regardless. But, hey, man, Kev, this was great. I really appreciate you for making the time. 


Kev: Thank you, man. 


Dan: But before we let you go, anything you wanna plug the audience, let them know some of the content you got coming out with the streaming service?


Kev: KevOnStage Studios. man, go to your app store, whether you’re on Apple, Android, Roku, Amazon, go to KevOnStage Studios, download that. Go ahead and subscribe for the year. Don’t worry about what’s on there. Just subscribe for the year. Trust me, it’ll be worth it. 


We’ve got a lot of amazing things on there. We got the Real Comedians Challenge Show, which is just knockdown drag out funny. We’ve got What’s Good?! which is a food show with comedians and comedians are more like regular people than chefs so you’re gonna feel like it’s you and your friends going out to eat in a different city. 


We got Love On Stage, which is a dating show my wife created and produced. That’s fantastic. You can stream that whole season in there. Just fun stuff like Get Your Black Card Off Layaway shows, Keon’s All Stars, Crafts and Cocktails, just fun stuff, man. Just go on there, check it out. Destination Evrywhr is an amazing travel show that, you know, has a musician who went all the way to Cambodia to make music with Cambodians. We have stuff like that. 


I mean, just go over there and check it out, man. Just don’t worry about the monthly fee. Don’t pay monthly. Pay by the year. You get two months free when you pay by the year. Just go ahead, go from here, wherever you’re listening, right to KevOnStage Studios and pay for the year. You won’t regret it. And even if you do, we already have your money.


Dan: We’ll make it easy for people too. We’ll put the link in the show notes.


Kev: Perfect. Thank you so much, Dan. I really appreciate it. I’m a big fan of yours. I’ve been watching your podcast and be like, “How does Dan get these guests?” And then you tweeted like I just be asking, I was like That ain’t no secret. That’s just —


He’s like you just know somebody or just shoot your shot. I’m like, you had Rick Ross though, man. You had Issa Rae. And you’re like, “Yeah, just ask.” I’m like, “Okay, we’ll see how that works, Dan. I’m gonna just ask too, see what I can get on my podcast.”


Dan: I will say, I mean, there’s something a bit more nuanced to that and I was like, you know what, I could have added more because I made it seem like, “Oh, y’all could do it. Why don’t you just DM Rick Ross?”


Kev: Yeah. I was like, “Dan, it is not that easy.” It is not that easy and you know that. I just believe all we got to do is DM him and he’ll be like, “Yeah, I’m gonna be on there.” You know it took more than that, Dan.


Dan: Oh, man. Well, no. So ’cause I think people probably appreciate this for the folks that do listen. So the Rick Ross one, real quick, so the Rick Ross one, I had had his attorney, Leron Rogers, on the pod. Him and I had had a good conversation and, you know, stayed connected afterward and I saw that Ross was putting out a book and I was like, “Alright, if someone’s put out a book, they’re gonna be on the tour,” and then I was like, “Okay, hey, you know, I know that Rozay is gonna be on the tour, would love to have him, he’s writing about business. This literally is the avenue to do that.” And he was like, “Alright, send me some details, let me see what I can make work,” and then we made it work after that. 


Kev: See?


Dan: Yeah.


Kev: It is more than just DM-ing. It’s timing, it’s relationship, it’s an audience people care about and a podcast that people actually watch and download. So, sorry, guys, it’s not as easy as Dan made it seem.


Dan: No, you’re right. If someone has to be, “Oh, hey, how did you get KevOnStage on your pod?” I’d be like, “Oh, I just DM-ed him. Y’all could do it too.” You gotta get all these people flooded. They will be like, “Oh, KevOnStage, can you come to do my thing? Oh, KevOnStage —


Kev: Guarantee you it’s not gonna be that easy. ’cause if I don’t follow you, I don’t even really see your DMs. I’m a fan of Dan so I saw his and I already wanted to be on this show so when he asked, I was like, “Finally, my time is now.”


Dan: It’s funny, man, because I so remember, it’s like one day on Twitter and, I mean, like I said, I’ve been following you on, you know, all the other platforms. And then, one day, you just quote tweeted something I said and you were like, “Y’all should follow this guy.” And I was just like —


Kev: Yes.


Dan: Yo, KevOnStage — I was just like, okay, all right, we hear this.


Kev: ’Cause you’re really smart, man, and you take stuff that is like out there and you make it so digestible. Like what Westbrook is doing, I’ve been following them but when you made that graphic about the flywheel, it’s like, “This is exactly what they do,” but it makes so much — I sent that to so many of my friends. 


I was like, this is what KevOnStage Studios has to become and the way they did The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air reunion, all of the stuff they did with that and then they ran that same thing back for King Richard, genius. And then with Will’s Best Shape of My Life, I watched that, get YouTube to pay for it, boom, use it to actually lose weight and promote your book.


Dan: Brilliant.


Kev: I said what the heck? I wanted to get the book because of that. Genius level marketing and even somebody as big as Will Smith, everything they do is not behind the paywall. They gotta use YouTube and Instagram just like regular people. So I know I’m on the right track. 


And I also met Will Smith, I don’t know if you know that. I don’t like to talk about it. 


Dan: Oh, no, you only post a photo, what? Every month or so.


Kev: I haven’t posted in a while. I should bring it up again today.


Dan: If he wins this Oscar for Best Actor, you gotta be part of that campaign.


Kev: He might thank me from the podium. He might be like, “This wouldn’t have worked without KevOnStage’s dad joke to help promote the film. I’m so glad that he did that and that’s why you heard about King Richard,” and I’m gonna be like, “Thanks. You’re welcome, Will. And you’re welcome, world.”


Dan: Oh, man. I’m kind of waiting for that moment, that will be dope.


Kev: Oh, man, I’ll be so happy for him. I’ll be so happy. And he was great in that, like it was an Oscar-worthy performance so I really do hope he wins.


Dan: Yeah, no, definitely. No, he does too. But, hey, man, this was great. I really appreciate you coming on.


Kev: Thank you so much for having me, Dan. I appreciate it, man. 


(outro)


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]]> 3358 no The Rise of Interscope Records (with Zack Greenburg) https://www.trapital.com/podcast In the 1990s, Interscope Records played by its own rules. Most new labels started with big stars, but Interscope had a clean slate. Most labels were scared of rap music, but Interscope leaned in. Co-founded by Jimmy Iovine, a producer, and Ted Field, a film producer, people questioned whether they had the chops to make it. The label has had a hand in some of the most memorable music moments like Death Row Records, the rise of Eminem, and the creation of Beats by Dre headphones.  To break down Interscope’s success, I brought back Zack O’Malley Greenberg. His book, “Three Kings,” covered Interscope’s story. Together, we unpack what’s made Interscope such a long-standing player in the music industry. [0:53] The most successful individual label of the past 30 years? [2:40] Key figures in Interscope’s come-up story [6:57] Nontraditional way to build a record label  [11:07] Death Row Records partnership  [16:44] Biggest signing?  [19:14] Best business move? [28:07] Darkhorse business move?  [33:21] Where will Interscope be in 10 years  [36:07] Would Interscope’s 90s approach work today? [43:39] Interscope’s entrepreneurial challenges today  [50:36] Biggest winner in Interscope history? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:27] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is all about Interscope Records. It has been one of the most influential record labels since it was started in 1990. This record label has been home to Dr. Dre, Eminem, 50 Cent, Lady Gaga, Olivia, Rodrigo, and countless other names in between. So we talked about what made Death Row records wanna partner with a company like Interscope and what made Interscope succeed time and time again. So we talk about the business model of being able to sell controversy and why that worked well, especially in the 90s. We also talk about leadership and how important it is to have people at the helm that understand what's needed and how that continued to help Interscope time and time again. We also talk about some of the challenges that Interscope has had and how they're able to navigate that too. And in this episode, very similar to the Cash Money one that we did a couple months ago, Zach and I, that's Zach O'Malley Greenberg, you may know him from his work back when he was at Forbes as the entertainment editor there. And from the books he's written like Three Kings and Empire State of Mind. We talked about a number of things and answered several questions that we talked about in the Cash Money episode as well. What was the biggest signing? What were the best business moves that were made? What was the Dark Horse move? What are the missed opportunities? How did this record label handle transitions? And who is the biggest winner overall from the success of Interscope Records, which is now Interscope Geffen A and M today, one of the umbrella labels under Universal Music Group. This is a really fun episode to do, and we're gonna do more of them. So let us also know if you have any suggestions on other ones you want us to do at the end of the episode, and we'll go from there. Here's our breakdown on Interscope Records. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:13] Dan Runcie: This episode is a breakdown on one of the most storied record labels of the past few decades, Interscope Records and we're back to break it down with my guy, Zach O'Malley Greenberg. Zach, welcome back, man.  [00:02:24] Zack Greenburg: Thanks for having me, as always.  [00:02:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I knew that this was a topic that was near and dear to you, given the work you covered in the spaces. Well, this is one of the more interesting record labels, but following their work for years. And just to just kick things off, this record label starts 1990, right at the beginning of a new wave for music and since it's come out, would you say that this is the most successful record label, individual record label that we've seen in music since then? [00:02:52] Zack Greenburg: I mean, it's certainly hard to think of another one, that's been more reliably at the top, right? I mean, and I think the thing that really sets Interscope apart is it's not like, you know, the label was made off of just one act or two acts or three acts. They just have a, track record of continuing to find, you know, artists that push the envelope, that, you know, break records and that end up at the top of the music scene and, you know, kind of across genres and eras too. So, you know, and really even across, chief executives, which is I think, pretty unusual. So, I think there's some kind of secret sauce in there and, can't wait to dig into it with you. [00:03:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think it. In terms of the longevity, in terms of the phases they've gone through, whether it's dominating in hip hop, dominating in pop, dominating in rock, they've been able to do it across genres across decades. The one record label that I do think could also be worth mentioning in this respect is Republic Records started a few years after 1995, but I think there's a few things there too as well. The consistency and the ability to do consistent deals, win challenging Bit Wars and get some of the top artists. So I do think it would probably have to be one of those two. But from a timeframe perspective, just all of what Interscope was able to do even before things got started at Republic, do give them a edge. If we're talking past 25 years, that's probably another discussion, but past 30, 32 years, I think Interscope is probably there. I think there's also maybe a case to be made for Columbia or a case to be made for Atlantic as well, but I do think that Interscope, especially just with the way that they went about things a little differently, which we'll get into, but I feel like they have a strong advantage there.  [00:04:33] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, particularly when it comes to the sort of entrepreneurial spirit, you know, and we've talked about Cash Money and Def Jam and you know, Rockefeller certainly, hip hop, specific record labels that have been uniquely, entrepreneurial, you know, especially given some of their leadership, but like, I think for a label that, you know, kind of delves into pop so much. And of course Interscope obviously, you know, huge home for hip hop too. But to have that entrepreneurial streak, outside of it, mostly hip hop label. I think that's pretty unusual too in some of the things they've done around beats, which we can get into. you know, j just, you know, being almost, you know, like a venture fund or an incubator as much as a record label in some ways. I think that's another way that Interscope has been, you know, really different from the rest.  [00:05:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. That beats thing, we'll get into that one in a minute. I feel there's so much to dive into there but let's start with the quick backstory. I'm sure a lot of folks already know this, but there are three main figures that were involved with. The beginning of this record label. You have PBIV, you have Ted Fields, and you have John McLay so. Let's first start with Jimmy. So as many of you know, this was someone that was a record producer. It started as that worked with legendary artisan music, whether it was John Lennon, Springsteen, and several others. And with that, he was able to carve out a lane, figure out what works for him. And I know that now the jump from producer to executive may not seem like it's that much, but back in 89 ' 90', there were a lot of question marks around whether or not this record producer guy could run a business, could he be an executive, and make the decisions and call the shots? And there were a lot of things that Jimmy did that may seem conventional, but there were a lot that were seen unconventional. But I do think that him having the partnership with others helped craft Interscope to where it is today. And Ted Fields is one of those first, one of those people where the name comes from. So yeah. Zach, tell us a little bit about Ted and some of his  [00:06:28] Zack Greenburg: work before.  Yeah, I mean, you know, and it was, this was at this point, over 30 years ago, but, you know, I was five years old. But kind of looking back on it now, I mean, it seems to me the way these things go, like Ted Field was kind of the money guy. Jimmy was the industry guy and you know, Ted Field was one of the heirs of the Marshall Field Fortune, he had been involved in film production and like race cars and all kinds of things that heirs to Fortunes are option involved in, which are maybe not as lucrative as Interscope Records turned out to be. but interesting nonetheless, he was a producer on, revenge of the Nerds and some other really interesting films. but yeah. In 1990, he came along, basically thought of Interscope Records as its division of this film company. and he brought on, he teamed up with Jimmy. I think they were actually introduced by the manager of u2. and, David Geffen was sort of involved in negotiations along the way. And, it was like kind of a who's who of the music world, you know, at kind of the cusp of the 1990s there. And so he came in, he brought on John McClain, to run Interscope at first. So John McClain is like one of these people who's incredibly, he might be the most influential person in music who nobody's ever heard of. And, unless you know, you know, John McClain was, critical in Janet Jackson's success. he's also now become the co-executor of the Michael Jackson estate. you know, really since MJ died, along with John Branca, who's sort of the, public face of it, but, you know, John McClain, if you want to like, try to find a picture of John McClain. I mean, this guy is so, under the radar, but he's so deeply in the mix. I don't really know how he manages to avoid the spotlight quite as much as he does. But, you know, obviously contributes a ton, of expertise, and as a true power player behind the scenes in the music business. So, you know, you kind of, you kind of put that dream team together and then you have sort of the ingredients for, you know, the beginning of, what we now know as Interscope records.  [00:08:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I'm glad that you brought up Geffen earlier because when this started, a lot of people looked at Geffen as the model for what this could be, but also how Interscope went about things differently. Geffen's whole thing when he had started Geffen Records was who were the established artists that he could go after? Again, whether it was Elton John or a few other folks that they were able to really secure, because at the time, the thought was you wanna have the proven people on your roster because it's so hard to be able to build that from the ground up. So not only is Jimmy and the team already going into this from people that don't traditionally have strong music experience in terms of running a music company, at least in late eighties, early nineties, but you also have them try to do it completely with new artists and going in from a new perspective. And this was part of one of the things that I think helped set them apart because they lead into genres and aspects of genres that other folks avoided. So of course, in the early days of Interscope, they focused more so on rock music. That's what Jimmy was known for. And you had artists, I think their first hit was Ricoh Suave. They had had some stuff with Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch. So you started to see a little bit of more interesting ways to go about stuff. But then they also had Nine Inch Nails and Marilyn Manson. So you got a vibe for the fact that this wasn't just rock music. They were in many ways going after that shock value like what was the thing that was somewhat controversial, but there was the controversial stuff that did sell and was resonating and they were able to take risks that others weren't, and it worked out to their advantage. [00:09:58] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And you know, another executive, who deserves mention is Tom Whaley, who came over from, I think it was, he was at Capital and a and r there. And you know, he was the one who had originally signed Tupac, in I think 1991. So that was like way before Tupac was a mainstream success. He was really getting in early, you know, the seed round of Tupac, if you will. and  [00:10:18] Dan Runcie: Digital underground era of Tupac.  [00:10:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, whereas maybe Geffen was more of like a series B kind of fund, you know, looking for series B and C, kind of sure things, you know, I think Interscope was really willing to get in there early and Right. They didn't really care if, somebody was controversial. And I think, I think Jimmy, I think that was part of his genius, was being able to tell like, you know, we shouldn't shy away from controversy. And in fact, you know, as, as long as it's. Not crossing certain lines. controversy can actually be good for a record label because it generates publicity and, you know, certainly as Jimmy got deeper and deeper in, you know, into the hip hop world, you know, I think, he followed that, strategy pretty closely.  [00:11:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think this speaks to something that worked effectively in business in the nineties as well. There was almost this monetization of pearl clutching, if that makes sense. What is gonna make people actually be like, oh, did so-and-so just say that? And that's why MTV was able to reach heights in the late eighties and early nineties that VH1 necessarily didn't at the time. And that's why Interscope was able to do things, other labels weren't. And then I think similarly, you even look at gaming back in the day. You look at a company like Sega and the types of games they were willing to release on a council like the SEGA Genesis, they were taking risks that Nintendo didn't wanna take. And I think we actually saw Sony continue to do that. So I feel like there was this ethos of that in the nineties from the get-go, and Interscope was willing to go there where others weren't. [00:11:50] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, hundred percent. And, you know, I think it's, also just interesting to know that I think a lot of people look at the Tupac saga and they think about, you know, there's this whole, and we can get into this later, the whole Suge Knight and bailing him out of jail and all that. But, he was already in the Interscope, family, you know, years before that. So [00:12:06] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:12:07] Zack Greenburg: It all kind of comes together.  [00:12:08] Dan Runcie: Oh, definitely. And I think with that it's time to talk about what are the most important things that does set the stage for this record label. In general, it's the partnership with Death Row records and signing them to the deal that they did. So it's funny because I think that when a lot of people think of hip hop artists signing deals and getting ownership, we often hear about cash money. We often hear about Master P and No Limit, but Death Row was able to do something quite similar and have that type of relationship with Interscope as well. It was a distribution deal, and for as notorious as Suge Knight is for his bully tactics, and that's probably a light way to put it in terms of how he goes about his business. He was very adamant about what they owned and they were able to use a few hundred thousand dollars investment on their end. Largely gotten from some money that, Suge Knight didn't get that he was owed from a vanilla ice steal and that that becomes a start to death row records. And they sat on the chronic for over a year until they found the right company. And the right company ended up being Interscope to partner with. [00:13:14] YT Clip 2: All I remember is that Dre came in, then plays the chronic. I said, who recorded this for you? He said, me. I said, wow. This guy will define Interscope.  [00:13:24] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. and you know, I think that, you know, there's the old story of like, when Jimmy first heard Dre and Snoop together on a track, he's like, these guys are like Mick and Keith just, you know, they're just, just different genre but saw it immediately, right? He saw the, like behind the scenes musical guy, you know? and then the sort of like the forward facing storyteller, the performer. And, he saw formula that worked in rock and that would work in hip hop. And, I think in many ways, You know, Jimmy's genre agnostic, right? It didn't really matter that this was hip hop or that was rock. The point was the formula works and it works in whatever genre you put it forward in. So, at one of my other favorite Jimmy Stories was, I don't remember which song this was, what was it? It was, maybe it was off the chronic or doggy style and that he couldn't get the, radio stations to play it, because it was too obscene or whatever. And so, he just bought like 32nd or 62nd slots, or maybe he bought like, full three minute slots on drive time in LA just terrestrial radio and just played the song and people didn't realize that it was an ad, and they just, they loved the song and they started calling the radio stations requesting it, and that's how they rocketed it to the top. Which, do you remember what song it was? it's, not such, of course, the listeners are gonna be like, oh  [00:14:41] Dan Runcie: someone's gonna come back and ping us about it.  [00:14:44] Zack Greenburg: But I just, I love that story and it's, just like classic Jimmy Iovine, you know, you know, and it works. and I think also, you know, to your earlier point, like monetizing the pearl clutching, the best way to, get somebody to want something is to tell 'em they can't have it, right? I mean, so whoever's mom is like clutching their pearls, but the kid is like, wait a minute, my mom is freaking out and I can't have this record, like, what is this record that I can't have? Even if they didn't know what it was, you know? and I think in a funny way, like that era, you know, the whole parental advisory sticker, I mean, that became like, you know, like almost a badge of honor,  [00:15:18] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah, I was a marketing employee at that point.  [00:15:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, exactly. and you see that, know, obviously throughout music, but even, to draw parallels, with basketball, which as we get into talk about, beats by Dre, you know, I think there are a ton of them. But like one of the reasons that, Eric Jordan did so well early on was because they were like finding Jordan for wearing them. And this was a big story, you know, he was kind of like breaking the rules by wearing, cuz it, you know, the sneakers they had to be like white in the nba, white sneakers. We could only have a certain percentage with color on them. And like the Jordans were 50% red or something. And, this was like a big problem and, you know, resulting in fines. But Nike decided to just pay the fines and take the publicity. And I think that sort of attitude is, the one that was, you know, adopted by Jimmy and, you know, by Interscope more broadly throughout.  [00:16:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah, great story. And I think that speaks a lot to both the blessing and to be honest, in some ways the curse of, Jimmy, what Jimmy's great at, and some of Jimmy's challenges as well, because from a leadership perspective and from the risk taken perspective, he was always willing to go there and spend the money to make the things happen, right? Whether it was taking a less lucrative deal to work with Death Row because you're working with Death Row, what you're able to put out, right? Three other first four albums they put out are classics, you have the chronic, you have Doggy Style, you have the above the Rim soundtrack. They just came so strong. And even that moment when they're able to have that cover on vibe, that is just such an infamous cover of, you know, the three main artists and show together. No one else could really do that, and that's why that does stay as strong as it is. But with that, Jimmy also did get a lot of criticism for overspending and not necessarily having as many checks of balances in place. A lot of people felt that, you know Doug Morris, who, this was a little bit later, but Doug Morris, who was leading Universal at the time, pretty much gave him a green light to do a lot of the things he wanted to do. And I remember in the nineties he had side Tom Jones, which was in many ways a bit antithetical to like how he's been running the business so far to spend the money on an act like that. And then even some of the things later on with Apple Music, and I mean, that's a whole nother conversation, but it's the way that the money was spent, worked well when it worked well. But then things don't work out, everyone has, you know, the criticism ready and some, some businesses that can work well, but in other businesses it can be a little bit challenging. [00:17:47] Zack Greenburg: Right. Yeah. absolutely. And, you know, I think as with many businesses though, if you spend a lot of money and you spend it, you know, intelligently or at least you know, in the right direction, maybe you overspend a little bit. If you spend in the right direction, you know, the rewards accrue to you. And, you know, I don't know if I'm getting too ahead of myself here, but. Just while we're on the topic of controversy, you know, just the whole corporate history of Interscope, it had started off as a, or it eventually was a joint venture between, Time Warner and then Field and Iovine. And in 1995, after all this controversy, with some of the lyrics and, you know, Dolores Tucker, you know, and all this T ime Warner divested, sold it's half of the company to field an Ivy for 150 million bucks. And then year later they just turned around and sold that half for 200 million back to Seagram. And, you know, so they made a tidy little $75, 85 million in like a year, you know, after, having their hand force by this controversy. So, it's just kind of funny how that all works out.  [00:18:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought that up. But I think we could get into some of the categories now cuz some of this probably fits there with that too. At least, I'd say the biggest signing here, I think the biggest signing, there's a number of them in Interscopes, 30 plus year history, but I think it has to be this Death Row deal. [00:19:02] Zack Greenburg: I think the death row deal, because it kind of paves the way for everybody else. But, I would say though, if there were a single artist that, you know, sort of, if you had to pick one artist to define Interscope, I'd probably go with Eminem. I mean, just in terms of like the overall, the controversy, the evolution, the sales. I mean, you know, just, nobody can touch Eminem from a sales perspective. you know, certainly when it comes to hip hop, over the past, you know, couple decades and, you know, just, all of the, kind of, the good and the bad and everything that came together. I mean, you know, but that doesn't happen unless you have Death Row. It doesn't happen unless you have Dr. Dre. I mean, you know, if you say like, what artist was most critical to Interscope overall, like on a broader kind of like holistic spectrum, I'd probably go with Dre. but as far as assigning, I don't know. It'd be hard to top that in my book.  [00:19:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think Eminem is a good counter there because this is kind of like the cash money conversation we had then, right? Do you say that it's Lil Wayne or do you say it's Drake and it actually is Drake from a pure numbers perspective, but obviously Drake doesn't happen without Lil Wayne and the same thing as here with Dre and Eminem and then everything else there. And Eminem is specifically because I think even if you looked at the 2010s, he's still probably up there in terms of the most commercially successful artist. He's already number one of the two thousands. He was already pretty high up from the nineties just given the work that he did in the late two thousands and his. In 2022, his greatest Hits album was the most popular rap album in the UK. And this is a album that's 17 years old, a greatest hits album. And then you just look at the streaming numbers. I'm pretty sure he has two of the three most streamed songs of the two thousands being Lose Yourself and Till I Collapse, which wasn't even like a big single at the time, but ended up being a staple on workout playlist. So yeah,  [00:20:57] Zack Greenburg: and he has remained relevant in a way. I mean, I think if you walk down the street and you ask the average, you know, 15 year old, they'll know who Eminem is and they might not know who Dr. Dre is.  [00:21:08] Dan Runcie: Which is wild to say, right?  [00:21:10] Zack Greenburg: I know,  [00:21:11] Dan Runcie: Wild. Yeah,  [00:21:12] Zack Greenburg: It's crazy, but I think but I think it 's also true, for better or worse, so,  [00:21:17] Dan Runcie: What's the best business move in, Interscopes done? [00:21:20] Zack Greenburg: I think it might be cheating a little bit because it was part Interscope and it was also part Universal more broadly. but I would go with beats, right? Just, you know, by way of background for those who don't know the full story, you know, uh, Jimmy Iovine and Dr. Dre founded Beats in, gosh, what was it, 2008? Something like that.  [00:21:36] Dan Runcie: Yep, 08'  [00:21:37] Zack Greenburg: But like from the very beginning, you know, the story goes that they're like walking down the beach in Malibu and, Dre has some kind of sneaker deal on the table and he says, you know, Jimmy, should I take this sneaker deal? And Jimmy goes, you know, like, F sneakers, let's sell speakers. And so that's how Beats was born. Is that exactly how it went down, you know, we'll never know, but it's a great story. and You know, to kind of tie it back to what we were talking about earlier with Air Jordan, they really did follow the Air Jordan Playbook in a lot of ways. And, when I wrote my book Three Kings, which was about Dre, Diddy and Jay-Z, the Dre section really focused a lot about, you know, beats and sort of how Dre set up this business and everything with Jimmy. And, you know, I actually went to the former CEO of Best Buy and I said, how did you sort of like, get kids to pay 200 bucks for a pair of headphones when like, they had been paying 200 bucks for sneakers before? And he said, well, we very consciously told our salespeople, when somebody walks in, you've gotta tell them like, you know, you're competing with Jordan not Bose, you know, you're gonna tell that kid like you know, this headphones set is like, more interesting for your wardrobe than that pair of sneakers or, you know, like that's how you're gonna really kind of win and create a category, not just sort of become the, best player in an old category. And, I think that was like the brilliant thing that they did. But the way that they got it to happen was they got full buy-in from Interscope and from the parent company, universal. And actually Universal invested a pretty big chunk of money into Beats. so that, you know, I think gosh, I don't remember exactly what it was, but I think when Apple finally bought them out, in 2014, I think Jimmy and Dre had 25 to 30% each. I think Universal had something like 20%. LeBron had a little bit and, will I am, but, you know, the fact that Universal was bought in, the Interscope was bought in, and that Jimmy was able to get them to put, beats headphones in like every single, I don't remember if it was Interscope video or all universal videos. I think it might've just been Interscope.  [00:23:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, they had 'em in Ineterscope cuz like they had 'em in like Gaga videos and like she would wear them and stuff.  [00:23:39] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And it's like, it's brilliant. Like what a brilliant move. So, you know, off of the two, that, whatever they put into it, intermediate, a lot of that was free, right? They just put in, you know, their own free product placement. They have to do anything and they help build this, you know, build beats into this $3 billion company. and so, you know, I, I don't know how the pie sort of divided, but it ended up being, you know, worth hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, to the sort of universal Interscope family. And then, you know, also, you know, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars for Jimmy and Dre. So, there are a lot of great signings. I'm sure they made a ton of money off of Eminem and all these other artists, but like, it's really hard to top that one. And, they just really knew how to do it. They really knew how to, I mean, Jimmy, you know, yeah. Again, it's a perfect partnership. Dre is this perfectionist artist and Jimmy is the market critter. And I remember, man, it must have been like 2010 or 2011, I got invited to this like launch of some new Beats thing, for New York media only. And, you know, there were like 30 people there and it was Jimmy and Dre and they were kind of like standing around in this, big conference room. And, you know, Jimmy was just like talking and yacking it up and telling stories and he told the story about the walking down the beach and, you know, sneakers or speakers and Dre's just kind of nodding and, you know, chiming in occasionally, but like, that was their deal. you know, Jimmy, Jimmy was the talker and Andre was the, you know, the, the quiet genius artist. and that was a pretty potent formula.  [00:25:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that was my answer too. Beats has to be the best deal. All the reasons you mentioned as well. They also saw a huge opportunity with speakers as well because at this point, the predominant way that so many people were listening to music were those cheap white iPhone headphones or the iPod headphones, I should say, at the time that people were listening to. And I remember Jimmy was adamant about how poor the sound quality was coming out of them, especially given how much focus there was in the nineties around surround sound and both speakers and all this stuff. And sound shifted to these very cheap plastic headphones that just came for free in the iPod, cases. So them putting a bit more money into the technology there. Granted, there were other companies that did come through and really expand further, and that's how we're able to have products like the AirPod Pro Maxes, which are now several hundred dollars more than beets ever were because beets was considered to be expensive at that point. And now people will buy those like it's nothing the same way that people will buy Yeezys. Like it's nothing. So that other point about category creation, not just building within an existing area was key there. [00:26:20] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think it's also worth noting, you know, Jimmy clearly looked up to Steve Jobs a lot and, you know, took cues from Steve Jobs creating the iPod, right? I mean, that was a very, like, he created the iPod. It was a music thing that helped basically revive apple and, and get it on the track that it is today. And you know, there, I don't think there's an iPhone if there's no iPod, but, you know, how did they get the iPod to be so sexy? It was like, It was those YouTube U2 commercials with the like, hello, hello to place golf to go, you know, and everybody was dancing and, and the crappy white, you know, earbuds with the, you know, chords and everything. you know, that was like, that was a creation of a category. And you know, I think that Jimmy looked at that and he thought, gosh, you know, I could do something like that. And I think he always thought it would be a great fit for Apple but Steve Jobs, you know, while he was alive, I think he kind of thought he could do it all himself, and he didn't really want to be involved in, you know, in that side of the business. So I think it's why, it wasn't until after Steve was gone that, you know, Apple came in and, and bought beats. But yeah, I remember reporting on that deal when it happened and happened at the worst. I was like, I had just gotten on a flight to like go to Italy for vacation with my wife. and I woke up at 7:00 AM and we landed or whatever, and I had like 70 texts and it, you know, it was like be, while I was over the Atlantic Ocean Beats, had gotten sold to Apple. And that, video came out with Dre saying how he was, you know, the new king of the Forbes list. And,  [00:27:54] YT Clip 1: The Forbes list just changed. They need, Hey, it came out like two weeks ago. They need to update the Forbes list, shit just changed in a big what? Oh my understand that. Oh my. The first billionaire in hip hop. Right here from the motherfucking West Coast. Believe it. Oh.  [00:28:11] Zack Greenburg: and so I just said to my wife, I was like, honey, we're gonna have to hang out in this airport for a little while before we started our vacation. I was like, you know, trying to put together a story and figure out what happened. but I think that one of the things that people talked about, you know, and at the time everybody's like, that's a crazy amount of money, you know how, you know how like Apple never spends money like this, you know, what's the deal? But a lot of the scuttlebutt was that they kind of like viewed Jimmy and Dre as, you know, maybe not like a replacement Steve Jobs, but almost like a piece of the Steve Jobs Voltron that they were gonna try to recreate, you know, like Tim Cook would, you know, the, would be the brain and the like, Dre and Jimmy would be the heart and somebody else would be the, I don't know, like something like that. They would piece it back together and get these little aspects of Steve and that they thought that Jimmy and Dre could really help out on the marketing side of it. and, you know, I don't know, I know that they had kind of like, there was a period of a few years where they were getting paid to hang around and, do stuff. And, you know, they did some, I think they did some more commercials, promotion, that kind of thing. But I never got the sense that they really were like, all right, you know, apple for life. And I think they kind of just, the thing ran its course, and, you know, they, took the last bit of their cash and off they went to do the next thing but it was interesting at least. that a lot of people really thought that that was kind of like part of the reason why, the deal was for such a big number, you know, that it was almost like an acquihire type of situation.  [00:29:36] Dan Runcie: Right, and the other big piece of it was the streaming service that they had created at the time. And Apple wanted to get into streaming. They didn't have a streaming service. They were starting to develop one. So Beats music eventually became Apple Music, and then that's how Jimmy became so integral with  [00:29:52] Zack Greenburg: And, I think even by that point, beats already had some really interesting people, I think like t Trenton Resner and so forth who were like deeply involved with it. And I think, you know, part of that was appealing to Apple too. that they felt that, you know, not just that the product existed, but that it, you know, that, the people existed who could kind of like grow it within Apple and, you know, eventually turn it into, into, iTunes like, you know, Apple Music and so forth. [00:30:17] Dan Runcie: Right, which speaks to that partnership in Jimmy's connections, right? He had been working with trend since the nine Inch Nails days. So yeah, all comes full circle. what do you think is the dark horse move or the dark horse thing that Interscope has that doesn't get talked about as much? So mine for this, I actually think it's the longevity that they've had with leadership there because I think that other record labels, this gets talked about a fair amount, but, and it's true for auto scope, I feel like it just doesn't get talked about in that same way. So since 1990, there's been two people that have been the head of it. So you had. Jimmy from what, 89 or 90, the founding until 2014, and then John Janick takes over and he's been there for almost a decade. And then if not more, if you just consider, you know, I think the total time working in the organization. So that's like you think about other organizations too, whether. You look at a team like the Pittsburgh Steelers, there've been two head coaches there since the early nineties. You look at the Green Bay Packers, there's been two quarterbacks that they've had as starters since the early nineties, and those teams have been consistently competitive and you rarely see them getting the first round or the number one draft pick. I think like Mike Tomlin hasn't had a losing season, and in some ways I kind of think about Interscope in that way. Yeah, sure. Every record label's had ups and downs, but these teams that have consistency, especially in an industry like music where there's so much turnover, so many of these other labels that are their competitors can be revolving doors in this way, which can lead to a lot of challenges for people to really be able to execute a strategy. This is one thing that I think has helped their longevity quite a bit. [00:32:01] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I would say for my dark course, I would say John Janick, specifically, and I think people don't really realize, you know, just like how successful he's been cuz everybody talks about Jimmy. But, you know, first of all, at this point John's been there, I mean, he's been running the show for almost 10 years, which is nearly as long as Jimmy was. And, you know, who knows how much of the time before, Jimmy left in 2014, John was actually really, you know, running things on a day-to-day basis. So, you know, the, just like so many times you see a, visionary founder like Jimmy, leave a company and then, you know, the thing just kind of like Peters out, but, you know, I mean, under John Janick, you know, look at, you know, like Billy Eilish for example. I mean, I think Kendrick Lamar was also under his watch, probably Machine Gun kelly must have been under his watch too.  [00:32:51] Dan Runcie: Yep. And then even Olivia, Rodrigo more recently.  [00:32:54] Zack Greenburg: I mean, what a huge, you know, like, so that's definitely like on the level of, you know, of the biggest acts that Jimmy was able to bring in. And you know, it's like, you know, even with some of them it was really more Dre than it was Jimmy. So I think that's, you know, yeah, I think John deserves a lot of credit too. you know, and we haven't talked about Lady Gaga, so she's not exactly a dark horse. but, you know, lady Gaga is somebody who came in under Jimmy, but like, jimmy should not get credit for Lady Gaga because Lady gaga was kinda like languishing, you know  [00:33:23] Dan Runcie: He was on the bench chilling and then like it was like the Akon's, the one that's like, Hey, what about her?  What about  [00:33:30] Zack Greenburg: And I remember I interviewed him, for Forbes. This was back in, you know, oh nine or 2010 or something like that. And, and I was like, so tell me the Lady Gaga story. And he said, basically I heard her stuff. And I was like, this is amazing. And I called her up, or I called, I think you called maybe Troy Carter, who was managing her at the time and said, you know, I wanna assign you, to my Interscope imprint. And she's like, I'm already on Interscope. So, so they just kind of like moved her around, within Interscope and, you know, they were able to, you know, that first song Just Dance. a lot of people forget that was like, when that came out. Akon was much bigger than Lady Gaga and, you know, that was at the height of Akon's fame. He's not out there as much now, but he is out, you know, he's all over the world making probably even more money than he was, back then. But, you know, yeah. He was hosting or appearing on SNL with Lonely Island and all those guys and, you know, he's kind of like showing up in the back of just dance, you know? Oh, yeah, you know, doing his Akon thing and, you know, and kind of really helped get her off the ground you know, and then just kind of like, pieced out and Lady Gaga became this incrediblesuperstar. So, you know, I think that's, certainly some serendipity for Interscope there, but, yeah, I wouldn't give Jimmy full credit for that one.  [00:34:45] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely not Interscope, collectively. Sure they had her on the roster, but yeah, that one has to go to Akon on that one by extension, who himself, you know, clearly worked with Interscope and then just given, cuz we didn't even mention him himself, just that whole run he had from like oh four to what, 08', maybe 2010 if you wanna go a little bit longer. He was everywhere.  [00:35:05] Zack Greenburg: yeah, yeah.  [00:35:06] Dan Runcie: So of course we talked a lot about consistency. We talked a lot about Janet and the role that he's been able to do there, and I think consistency does naturally lead itself going further. So let's flash forward 10 years, let's go to 2030, 2033. Do we still think that Interscope will be at the level that it is now, where if you look at the market share numbers, it's roughly alternating, right? Around 10% of recorded music may be a little bit less, but I feel like it's like them Republic and then Columbia alternating to some extent. And it all kind of depends on who releases when but do you think that changes? Do you think they're more likely to stay there? Or what do you think 10 years from now  [00:35:46] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think they're gonna stay, I mean, it's not like, one of these situations where their top artists are leaving or, you know, you're really too concerned about it, or they're kind of in the wrong genre mix. I mean, they're really heavy in hip hop. you know, they have some of the biggest stars out right now. I mean, we already talked about Olivia Rodrigo, Kendrick. Billy Eilish obviously is enormous Machine Gun Kelly, but you know, they have Black Pink. That's huge. Like, that could be a big place for growth  [00:36:11] Dan Runcie: You got SZA through the TDE deal, right?  [00:36:13] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. yeah. I mean, that's a great point, you know, hard to find anybody, who's having like a bigger moment that says it right now, so, You know, there's a lot. let's say that to go back to the sports analogy, it's not like this is a team of like, you know, 38 year olds who are nearing the end, you know, this is, like a win now team, with plenty of talent in the pipeline. and they've proven that they can keep working the farm system or something to continue the sports metaphor. But, and you know, I mean, John himself is not an old guy. I mean, John is,  [00:36:40] Dan Runcie: Mid Forties?  [00:36:41] Zack Greenburg: You know, I I forget old he is. Exactly. Yeah, you're talking, you know, where are they gonna be in 2030? I mean, you know, he'll be like in his early fifties and, still I think doing what he's doing, and doing it really well. So, you know. Absolutely. Yeah, I don't really see them fading. And if anything, you know, all it takes is like, You know, like another Monster Billy Eilish album in a given year. you know, and they start to gain even a little more market share. So I think they're in a pretty darn good place.  [00:37:09] Dan Runcie: And it's arguably one of the best jobs in the recorded music industry because of the amount of leeway that I think Janet and by extension, the Interscope Geffen a and m umbrella is given relative to a lot of the other labels that are either under Universal or even others under the majors in terms of the decision making, the things that you could do, and when you have that much control based on his relationship with Lucian compared to others, it does make a huge difference.  [00:37:37] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And you know, I think another, another guy who's kind of in the background, who's been in the background, you know, for a really long time there is Steve Berman. He's another executive, who doesn't get you know, like a ton of limelight, but, you know, is kind of like quietly, like, like the cons. He's been kind of the cons area type over the years. and, you know, I think that might be part of the, you know, continuation, the connective tissue between Iovine, and, john Jank as well. [00:38:02] Dan Runcie: Right. Good point, especially just given how important lawyers and they are in terms of the influence direction of this industry. Another thing that I think is interesting, just thinking about the future, is also looking at the past of Interscope and how this record label did start and rise because of this controversy, because of the pro clutching business model. Do you think that could work today? Because I have my skepticism, but what are your thoughts? [00:38:31] Zack Greenburg: I think it depends, you know, what sort of pearl clutching is about, right? I think, know, in, in many ways the world is a nicer place than it was in the nineties. Like, you know, things were kind of a little rough and tumble in the nineties and it wasn't as sensitive a time as it is now. you know, I think, I think in general it's, good that, you know, we're like a little nicer, a little more sensitive, but, you know, in other ways, you know, I think, sometimes perhaps too much. But, you know, I think that, you know, certainly when it comes to music, I don't know, in a like this moment, for whatever reason, music isn't at the. Forefront of the culture wars and the way that it was in the nineties. And you know, instead it's like books in Florida, right? I mean, who knew? But, you know, people aren't really like, kind of, this is not a, like a campaign issue in the same way, that it might have been in the 90s, you're not seeing as many politicians sounding off about it. I mean, I think certainly you're hearing stuff, about, you know, can lyrics be used as evidence in court? you know, which is, can be a really troubling topic. But, you know, I think the sort of focus of that argument is, it's not like in the middle of national campaigns in the way that this was in the 1990s. So, yeah, I think, you know, like Interscope certainly as an experience. walking the line and it's maybe a little bit less of a delicate line, that they need to walk these days for just whatever reasons, with the political headwinds.  [00:40:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I don't think it would work in the same way because I think the people that do try to create shock value were so desensitized to things compared to when we were the way things were in the nineties. Even for people that weren't that threat to society, but because of how they were depicted, it was easier to do that and still release great music, right? The chronic could be a shock value type of work, but it's still something that is critically acclaimed. That is in the National Registry and Library of Congress and all of these other areas. But now the stuff that creates shock value in music, whether it's even someone that's like more on the personality side, like a dj academics or someone like that will literally just say like, you know, the wildest shit just to go viral or partner with right wing organizations in order to create momentum that still has this area where it lives in somewhere like YouTube, where yes, you can get a following and you can make a living and you know, do things for yourself. But I think there's somewhat of a ceiling to that in terms of how much you can like, create, you know, broader impact and truly monetize the bases and the masses. And some of it even extends to artists as well, like those, I think someone like NBA Young Boy is quite popular and has had a bit of a number of transgressions in his track record, but still I think there's a pretty big gap of, you know, him relative to like some of the other names you mentioned just from some of the exposure and opportunities that he's given that doesn't lend itself to that. So, you know, Interscope in the early nineties probably wouldn't have wanted to try to sign Olivia Rodrigo because it didn't make sense. But it makes perfect sense now just given where things are and where things are going. So you can maybe do it on a niche level, but I think it's hard to have shock value sell in mass quantities and for the mainstream in that same way.  [00:41:55] Zack Greenburg: Well, I think it's also just harder to shock people now, right? I mean, you know.  [00:41:58] Dan Runcie: Or desensitized  [00:42:00] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you were to put out the chronic today, you know, with, the marijuana leaf on the cover of it, it's like, and you know, and like this has been legal in California for like how long, you know? And certainly in terms of like things you could say or do that would be truly shocking. It's like after Donald Trump has been president in the things, you know, that are kind of, came out of that, it's like, you know, I don't really know many things an artists could do that would be more shocking, you know, and in this sort of like, hilarious, I dunno if it's hilarious, but this, let's say, ironic juxtaposition, you know, you had Eminem, the king of shock value Like making a track against Donald Trump when he was in office, you know, you have the rappers protesting against the politicians, instead of the other way around. So I think we're still, as a society, been kind of turned on our head, you know, by some of the developments of the past. you know, let's say eight years, eight years plus the past decade or so. you know, it's, guess in some ways hard for politicians to be complaining so much about music when, a lot of the obscenity is coming from them. So,  [00:43:05] Dan Runcie: Right, and I think too, you were mentioning about how what Congress or what the American government can rally against in how so much of the nineties was. I still remember that infamous cover of Snoop Dogg on the cover of Newsweek, and I forget what the title of the magazine was, but it was something, along the lines of, oh, this is the greatest threat to America, or this is the greatest threat to our country, or something like that someone could probably pick me and find it, or maybe you'll link to in the show notes. And that's what people were able to get riled up around, right? Now, the biggest thing in music that has gotten anyone on a congressional level or congress level riled up is ticketmaster and Live Nation and Taylor Swift's tickets, which just shows how different things are, people used to be riled up about the content. Now this is a way to try to get at big business or whatever the exact complaint is. So, such a different time.  [00:43:58] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, No, I Couldn't agree more. [00:44:01] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So we definitely spoke a lot of praise about the current era of where things are with the Interscope and the work that Janet has done the past decade. If you were in his shoes, would you be doing anything differently? And I do think that he's done a few things. So you mentioned black pink earlier. So there's clearly a way to be able to pivot and move more into music that isn't from the United States. It isn't domestic, and you're able to rise there, clearly done different types of deals from a flexibility perspective. Some artists do have, licensing deals like Olivia Rodrigo will own her masters for the long term just based on what she's shared about the nature of her contract moving forward. But for him himself, I mean, I think there's other IP things that could be interesting, but what does the type of things that Jimmy was able to do back in the late 2010 or late two thousands with beats? Like what could that look like or what could that look like for Interscope  [00:44:59] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. You know, I think it's a different time. One of the things that's changed so much is over the past few years, I would say it's like, it's not quite as cool to be rich anymore, you know? I think sort of the Bernie Sanders movement, the sort of like this, right? I remember seeing it at Forbes, you know, when I started out it was like, woo, like I wanna be a billionaire and  [00:45:20] Dan Runcie: The Forbes Remix  [00:45:22] Zack Greenburg: Right. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you had, Jay-Z, Diddy, and 50 being like, you know, the Forbes, yeah, they put out this Forbes 1, 2, 3 billionaire remix they called it. But you know, even now, even within the past couple years, you know, certainly, I think the Pandemic really crystallized this. But even before that, you know, with sort of like Bernie and, that whole, you know, movement, There was this kind of questioning of like, should there even be billionaires? And you know, I remember starting to see, people who you had thought, you would've thought would be, you know, jumping to be on the cover of Forbes. Just say like, eh, you know, like, I don't want to be seen as crowing about my wealth. so, you know, I think that's a big cultural change. And that's post beats, right? That's post, you know, Dr. Dre's situation. And, you know, I think that there's certainly a lot of leeway for Interscope still, to be entrepreneurial and they've always done that. But I think the challenge for Interscope or for anyone really is like, how can you be entrepreneurial in a way that is sort of like, you know, not necessarily charitable per se, but has some kind of impact, you know, like some kind of impact investing sort of thing. how can you, like, make money but, you know, drive change at the same time? I think that's sort of like, as we look going forward into the, you know, celebrity earning, you know, celebrity business sphere, I think that's gonna be the big question because it's no longer the thing that's just, it's cool to make a bunch of money on some random app or, you know, selling, some crypto thing as we've seen. And you know, you can get a lot of blowback, people think you're selling out. People think you're greedy people don't think you're selling outta greedy just cause you're doing something business related. But, you know, I think, over the past couple years it's become a lot more like, well, you know, is this something that really helps the world are using your money for good? and so I think whatever it is, if it's gonna be public facing and, you know, and I think. That's the value when you have a stable of celebrities, right, is to do something public facing. It's like, what is this doing, to help the world. So, you know, I think there are a lot of ways to take that, but certainly, you know, I think that's a bigger, bigger and bigger component going forward.  [00:47:22] Dan Runcie: This is something that has changed in a relatively quick time span. You even think back to the Obama era and just the Obama presidency and just how music was and how people interacted and thought about music. You look at a album like Watch the Throne In, which I do think was one of the more popular albums from that decade. Granted, I don't think JayZ or Ye are even on the terms or desire to put something like, like that out again. But if they put that out about now, it would not get the same reception. There would be all these think pieces about, oh, here are these two men talking about, you know, their, you know, Hugo watches and there other, other bends and all this stuff. And people would be complaining about that in a way where just as recent as 2011, they were celebrated, like people, like revered so many of the songs. And just the talk about black excellence and wealth and even some of the conversations around Jay-Z himself as a figure, I know you know this well as probably some of the responses you've gotten over the years when you've talked about Empire State of mind and how people react to him, statements he's said and stuff like that. And yeah, we're just in a very different spot and now we're kind of in this space where, Yes, people can have commercial success. People, businesses can do it too. But I think it's especially difficult for companies in music because of so much historical context of how people view the record label as the enemy. People view the record label as this, and then even when the topic of the prices potentially raising for some of these streaming services, the number one thing you often hear from fans is, well, I hope that extra dollar or $2 for a potential raise in the streaming service goes back to the artist. And it's like, yes, you, you do eventually want those things, but we're losing the opportunity to talk about the value that these record labels create because of how media disseminates, right? If you talk about, oh, Olivia Rodrigo has a very favorable record deal. No one wants to hear that. But if there's ever a report, oh, Olivia Rodrigo's upset about, you know, Interscope, that thing would be a news topic for five days. Cuz that's where we are right now. [00:49:27] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And you know, so to to your point, I mean, you mentioned my book, empire State of Mind, which was this business focused biography I wrote of Jay-Z. it came out in 2011. but you know, It was such a different world back then. And when it came out, you know, their response was basically like, whoa, awesome. Like, this is Jay-Z's blueprint for how to, you know, be a centi millionaire. And this is so cool because now I can apply this to my career, or I can, you know, learn some lessons from him. And, you know, and there was just definitely like a sentiment of people rooting for Jay-Z to become a billionaire, race to a billion, and who's gonna get there first? Is it Jay-Z or Diddy or, you know, whoever. And, you know, and then it happened and Jay-Z you know, crossed the threshold in, I think it was 20, early 2020, something like that. I think late 2019, early 2020 was when we put him in the magazine as a billionaire for Forbes. but even when that, like, by the time that happened, you know, about 10 years later, I put out the billionaire edition of the book. after, you know, let's say, what was it, in 2021, this was 10 years later. It was a totally different story, right? people were like, why is this guy, you know, like, who cares? Like, you know, like he should be giving it all of it back, you know? Why are there billionaires in our society? Something's wrong in society that has billionaires. So, you know, and I think it has gone, that narrative has gone even faster than Jay-Z has kind of evolved into this, like very socially aware, you know, type of philanthropic mogul, you know, people are not even that into the idea of like, oh, I'll make a lot of money so I can give it back, people are like, just, you know, do the good, like do philanthropic stuff, do impact stuff the whole way through and like, don't even try to become a billionaire. So, it really is such a different world, and it's, been fascinating to write about this stuff as these attitudes have changed on a broader societal level for sure.  [00:51:25] Dan Runcie: Did you hesitate naming it the Billionaire Edition, knowing like this would change and seeing things over the years? [00:51:32] Zack Greenburg: Well, I had it in mind that it would be a cool thing to do whenever he did become a billionaire, because it was like, it was almost like the realization of a prophecy. It's like, you know, in, in 2011, I sort of like, I'm telling you he's gonna be billionaire and he's telling you, you know, and it's like, okay, here it is. He's a billionaire, you know, and I actually wanted to get like a, gilded cover and do the kind of watch the throne type of thing and you know, like embossed gold and all that stuff. But, it's not the right era. I mean, like, you're saying, it's just not, it's that era anymore. So yeah, I did wonder, like, should I kind of like back off of that narrative. But, you know, to go back to the Jimmy Iovine Interscope conversation, it's like, whether it's good or bad, it starts a conversation and you want the conversation to start, so that people will read the book, you know? And it's not like, a bad thing for me if people think it's bad that Jay-Z's a billionaire, it's just a fact. And even since I put out the Billionaire edition, he's like, more than doubled his net worth, you know, again. So that's just, that's just how he operates. And, you know, that's Jay-Z.  [00:52:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, you had to put out something. So much had changed since when you first put that book out. And this is how, in many ways the. Business model of books works when there is something to be able to add, that's a refresher new forward based on this one. you had to do it. So, yeah. I think it made sense. But to bring this all full circle with Interscope in this conversation, the last thing we'll dive into is who is the biggest winner, artist, executive producer, so on from everything that has happened with Interscope in the past 33 years.  [00:53:09] Zack Greenburg: Hmm. it's a great question. I mean, to me it's between Jimmy and Dre. but I would probably go with Jimmy because, you know, Dre was gonna be centimillionaire, you know, music legend no matter what. And although Jimmy had done a lot of great work, you know, in the rock world before then, and I'm sure, you know, was, very adequately compensated. You know, he wasn't sort of like a, an international business superstar in the way that he became as a result of, Interscope. And, you know, Jimmy and Dre both got a lot of money out of it. but I think Jimmy really got a lot more than he would've otherwise. in his, prior iteration of his career and Dre, you know, I mean, Dre has founded a bunch of things, right? And Interscope, you know, obviously he wasn't the founder of Interscope, but, you know, I kind of tied B to Interscope and that whole thing together. So it, Dre had lots of different paths to wealth. and so did Jimmy, but I think Dre had more, and, Jimmy kind of like ultimately got more out of it.  [00:54:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think between the two of them, even if Interscope had said no back in 92 or 91, whenever the initial deal was made, I do think that Dre would've likely found a home. Dre and Suge would've found a home. It's still been able to do something similar elsewhere. Maybe it would've made the Tupac thing a little bit more challenging, but I think they still would've figured that out too.  [00:54:30] Zack Greenburg: Yeah.  [00:54:31] Dan Runcie: I don't think the same would necessarily be true for Jimmy though, because if you don't have them, you don't have this. And a lot of this, I'm sure a lot of people listening to this unlikely watch the Defiant ones or maybe you've seen should do a few interviews. I don't know if a lot of that would work.  But I think I'll actually take a different approach. I think the person that probably won the most, just from a situation perspective, I know we've talked about him a fair amount, but I'll say Janet with this one because he didn't build this company himself. But the fact that when it's your time to come up, you have this opportunity to be able to step into, you have this much leeway, this much assets that already work in your favor because we just know how valuable the bat catalogs are. You walk into that position and then that has you then. Then that just makes it much more easy for you to have things set up because we know how a lot of this stuff is, right? People leave record labels all the time, especially if there's an opportunity to go to that next level. And this was before streaming really broke out. So if it wasn't Interscope, it may have been one of the other opportunities that could have opened up. And for him to be able to take that and then continue things for the next decade and then prove that, to our point earlier, this isn't just a one trick pony. This was able to live beyond and in some ways, maybe even operated things a bit more efficiently than Jimmy did as well with some of the recklessness at points from spending too. I do think that there's a case to be made for Janet, in terms of how that's been able to help that career too. [00:56:00] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good pick too. Although, I think probably if you're going in terms of wealth creation, Jimmy,  [00:56:06] Dan Runcie: Jimmy, for sure. Yeah, a hundred  [00:56:08] Zack Greenburg: you gotta give it to Jimmy. But point, taken, for sure.  [00:56:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Well, good stuff. This one was fun. I feel like after this we definitely went on a few different tangents on beats about even one on Apple music. We didn't explore too deeply. And even some of the other record labels here, there's a lot we could dig back into with this one.  But yeah, Keith, and though controversy can sell, but not in the same way it did in the nineties.  [00:56:33] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, that, that's absolutely, absolutely,  [00:56:36] Dan Runcie: Well, Zach been a pleasure to us all, man. [00:56:39] Zack Greenburg: Thanks, Dan. Have a good one. [00:56:41] Dan Runcie: You too, man.    Thu, 27 Apr 2023 09:00:00 -0000 The Rise of Interscope Records (with Zack Greenburg) full Dan Runcie In the 1990s, Interscope Records played by its own rules. Most new labels started with big stars, but Interscope had a clean slate. Most labels were scared of rap music, but Interscope leaned in. Co-founded by Jimmy Iovine, a producer, and Ted Field, a film producer, people questioned whether they had the chops to make it. The label has had a hand in some of the most memorable music moments like Death Row Records, the rise of Eminem, and the creation of Beats by Dre headphones.  To break down Interscope’s success, I brought back Zack O’Malley Greenberg. His book, “Three Kings,” covered Interscope’s story. Together, we unpack what’s made Interscope such a long-standing player in the music industry. [0:53] The most successful individual label of the past 30 years? [2:40] Key figures in Interscope’s come-up story [6:57] Nontraditional way to build a record label  [11:07] Death Row Records partnership  [16:44] Biggest signing?  [19:14] Best business move? [28:07] Darkhorse business move?  [33:21] Where will Interscope be in 10 years  [36:07] Would Interscope’s 90s approach work today? [43:39] Interscope’s entrepreneurial challenges today  [50:36] Biggest winner in Interscope history? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog This episode is sponsored by DICE. Learn more about why artists, venues, and promoters love to partner with DICE for their ticketing needs. Visit dice.fm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:27] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is all about Interscope Records. It has been one of the most influential record labels since it was started in 1990. This record label has been home to Dr. Dre, Eminem, 50 Cent, Lady Gaga, Olivia, Rodrigo, and countless other names in between. So we talked about what made Death Row records wanna partner with a company like Interscope and what made Interscope succeed time and time again. So we talk about the business model of being able to sell controversy and why that worked well, especially in the 90s. We also talk about leadership and how important it is to have people at the helm that understand what's needed and how that continued to help Interscope time and time again. We also talk about some of the challenges that Interscope has had and how they're able to navigate that too. And in this episode, very similar to the Cash Money one that we did a couple months ago, Zach and I, that's Zach O'Malley Greenberg, you may know him from his work back when he was at Forbes as the entertainment editor there. And from the books he's written like Three Kings and Empire State of Mind. We talked about a number of things and answered several questions that we talked about in the Cash Money episode as well. What was the biggest signing? What were the best business moves that were made? What was the Dark Horse move? What are the missed opportunities? How did this record label handle transitions? And who is the biggest winner overall from the success of Interscope Records, which is now Interscope Geffen A and M today, one of the umbrella labels under Universal Music Group. This is a really fun episode to do, and we're gonna do more of them. So let us also know if you have any suggestions on other ones you want us to do at the end of the episode, and we'll go from there. Here's our breakdown on Interscope Records. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:13] Dan Runcie: This episode is a breakdown on one of the most storied record labels of the past few decades, Interscope Records and we're back to break it down with my guy, Zach O'Malley Greenberg. Zach, welcome back, man.  [00:02:24] Zack Greenburg: Thanks for having me, as always.  [00:02:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I knew that this was a topic that was near and dear to you, given the work you covered in the spaces. Well, this is one of the more interesting record labels, but following their work for years. And just to just kick things off, this record label starts 1990, right at the beginning of a new wave for music and since it's come out, would you say that this is the most successful record label, individual record label that we've seen in music since then? [00:02:52] Zack Greenburg: I mean, it's certainly hard to think of another one, that's been more reliably at the top, right? I mean, and I think the thing that really sets Interscope apart is it's not like, you know, the label was made off of just one act or two acts or three acts. They just have a, track record of continuing to find, you know, artists that push the envelope, that, you know, break records and that end up at the top of the music scene and, you know, kind of across genres and eras too. So, you know, and really even across, chief executives, which is I think, pretty unusual. So, I think there's some kind of secret sauce in there and, can't wait to dig into it with you. [00:03:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think it. In terms of the longevity, in terms of the phases they've gone through, whether it's dominating in hip hop, dominating in pop, dominating in rock, they've been able to do it across genres across decades. The one record label that I do think could also be worth mentioning in this respect is Republic Records started a few years after 1995, but I think there's a few things there too as well. The consistency and the ability to do consistent deals, win challenging Bit Wars and get some of the top artists. So I do think it would probably have to be one of those two. But from a timeframe perspective, just all of what Interscope was able to do even before things got started at Republic, do give them a edge. If we're talking past 25 years, that's probably another discussion, but past 30, 32 years, I think Interscope is probably there. I think there's also maybe a case to be made for Columbia or a case to be made for Atlantic as well, but I do think that Interscope, especially just with the way that they went about things a little differently, which we'll get into, but I feel like they have a strong advantage there.  [00:04:33] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, particularly when it comes to the sort of entrepreneurial spirit, you know, and we've talked about Cash Money and Def Jam and you know, Rockefeller certainly, hip hop, specific record labels that have been uniquely, entrepreneurial, you know, especially given some of their leadership, but like, I think for a label that, you know, kind of delves into pop so much. And of course Interscope obviously, you know, huge home for hip hop too. But to have that entrepreneurial streak, outside of it, mostly hip hop label. I think that's pretty unusual too in some of the things they've done around beats, which we can get into. you know, j just, you know, being almost, you know, like a venture fund or an incubator as much as a record label in some ways. I think that's another way that Interscope has been, you know, really different from the rest.  [00:05:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. That beats thing, we'll get into that one in a minute. I feel there's so much to dive into there but let's start with the quick backstory. I'm sure a lot of folks already know this, but there are three main figures that were involved with. The beginning of this record label. You have PBIV, you have Ted Fields, and you have John McLay so. Let's first start with Jimmy. So as many of you know, this was someone that was a record producer. It started as that worked with legendary artisan music, whether it was John Lennon, Springsteen, and several others. And with that, he was able to carve out a lane, figure out what works for him. And I know that now the jump from producer to executive may not seem like it's that much, but back in 89 ' 90', there were a lot of question marks around whether or not this record producer guy could run a business, could he be an executive, and make the decisions and call the shots? And there were a lot of things that Jimmy did that may seem conventional, but there were a lot that were seen unconventional. But I do think that him having the partnership with others helped craft Interscope to where it is today. And Ted Fields is one of those first, one of those people where the name comes from. So yeah. Zach, tell us a little bit about Ted and some of his  [00:06:28] Zack Greenburg: work before.  Yeah, I mean, you know, and it was, this was at this point, over 30 years ago, but, you know, I was five years old. But kind of looking back on it now, I mean, it seems to me the way these things go, like Ted Field was kind of the money guy. Jimmy was the industry guy and you know, Ted Field was one of the heirs of the Marshall Field Fortune, he had been involved in film production and like race cars and all kinds of things that heirs to Fortunes are option involved in, which are maybe not as lucrative as Interscope Records turned out to be. but interesting nonetheless, he was a producer on, revenge of the Nerds and some other really interesting films. but yeah. In 1990, he came along, basically thought of Interscope Records as its division of this film company. and he brought on, he teamed up with Jimmy. I think they were actually introduced by the manager of u2. and, David Geffen was sort of involved in negotiations along the way. And, it was like kind of a who's who of the music world, you know, at kind of the cusp of the 1990s there. And so he came in, he brought on John McClain, to run Interscope at first. So John McClain is like one of these people who's incredibly, he might be the most influential person in music who nobody's ever heard of. And, unless you know, you know, John McClain was, critical in Janet Jackson's success. he's also now become the co-executor of the Michael Jackson estate. you know, really since MJ died, along with John Branca, who's sort of the, public face of it, but, you know, John McClain, if you want to like, try to find a picture of John McClain. I mean, this guy is so, under the radar, but he's so deeply in the mix. I don't really know how he manages to avoid the spotlight quite as much as he does. But, you know, obviously contributes a ton, of expertise, and as a true power player behind the scenes in the music business. So, you know, you kind of, you kind of put that dream team together and then you have sort of the ingredients for, you know, the beginning of, what we now know as Interscope records.  [00:08:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I'm glad that you brought up Geffen earlier because when this started, a lot of people looked at Geffen as the model for what this could be, but also how Interscope went about things differently. Geffen's whole thing when he had started Geffen Records was who were the established artists that he could go after? Again, whether it was Elton John or a few other folks that they were able to really secure, because at the time, the thought was you wanna have the proven people on your roster because it's so hard to be able to build that from the ground up. So not only is Jimmy and the team already going into this from people that don't traditionally have strong music experience in terms of running a music company, at least in late eighties, early nineties, but you also have them try to do it completely with new artists and going in from a new perspective. And this was part of one of the things that I think helped set them apart because they lead into genres and aspects of genres that other folks avoided. So of course, in the early days of Interscope, they focused more so on rock music. That's what Jimmy was known for. And you had artists, I think their first hit was Ricoh Suave. They had had some stuff with Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch. So you started to see a little bit of more interesting ways to go about stuff. But then they also had Nine Inch Nails and Marilyn Manson. So you got a vibe for the fact that this wasn't just rock music. They were in many ways going after that shock value like what was the thing that was somewhat controversial, but there was the controversial stuff that did sell and was resonating and they were able to take risks that others weren't, and it worked out to their advantage. [00:09:58] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And you know, another executive, who deserves mention is Tom Whaley, who came over from, I think it was, he was at Capital and a and r there. And you know, he was the one who had originally signed Tupac, in I think 1991. So that was like way before Tupac was a mainstream success. He was really getting in early, you know, the seed round of Tupac, if you will. and  [00:10:18] Dan Runcie: Digital underground era of Tupac.  [00:10:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, whereas maybe Geffen was more of like a series B kind of fund, you know, looking for series B and C, kind of sure things, you know, I think Interscope was really willing to get in there early and Right. They didn't really care if, somebody was controversial. And I think, I think Jimmy, I think that was part of his genius, was being able to tell like, you know, we shouldn't shy away from controversy. And in fact, you know, as, as long as it's. Not crossing certain lines. controversy can actually be good for a record label because it generates publicity and, you know, certainly as Jimmy got deeper and deeper in, you know, into the hip hop world, you know, I think, he followed that, strategy pretty closely.  [00:11:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think this speaks to something that worked effectively in business in the nineties as well. There was almost this monetization of pearl clutching, if that makes sense. What is gonna make people actually be like, oh, did so-and-so just say that? And that's why MTV was able to reach heights in the late eighties and early nineties that VH1 necessarily didn't at the time. And that's why Interscope was able to do things, other labels weren't. And then I think similarly, you even look at gaming back in the day. You look at a company like Sega and the types of games they were willing to release on a council like the SEGA Genesis, they were taking risks that Nintendo didn't wanna take. And I think we actually saw Sony continue to do that. So I feel like there was this ethos of that in the nineties from the get-go, and Interscope was willing to go there where others weren't. [00:11:50] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, hundred percent. And, you know, I think it's, also just interesting to know that I think a lot of people look at the Tupac saga and they think about, you know, there's this whole, and we can get into this later, the whole Suge Knight and bailing him out of jail and all that. But, he was already in the Interscope, family, you know, years before that. So [00:12:06] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:12:07] Zack Greenburg: It all kind of comes together.  [00:12:08] Dan Runcie: Oh, definitely. And I think with that it's time to talk about what are the most important things that does set the stage for this record label. In general, it's the partnership with Death Row records and signing them to the deal that they did. So it's funny because I think that when a lot of people think of hip hop artists signing deals and getting ownership, we often hear about cash money. We often hear about Master P and No Limit, but Death Row was able to do something quite similar and have that type of relationship with Interscope as well. It was a distribution deal, and for as notorious as Suge Knight is for his bully tactics, and that's probably a light way to put it in terms of how he goes about his business. He was very adamant about what they owned and they were able to use a few hundred thousand dollars investment on their end. Largely gotten from some money that, Suge Knight didn't get that he was owed from a vanilla ice steal and that that becomes a start to death row records. And they sat on the chronic for over a year until they found the right company. And the right company ended up being Interscope to partner with. [00:13:14] YT Clip 2: All I remember is that Dre came in, then plays the chronic. I said, who recorded this for you? He said, me. I said, wow. This guy will define Interscope.  [00:13:24] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. and you know, I think that, you know, there's the old story of like, when Jimmy first heard Dre and Snoop together on a track, he's like, these guys are like Mick and Keith just, you know, they're just, just different genre but saw it immediately, right? He saw the, like behind the scenes musical guy, you know? and then the sort of like the forward facing storyteller, the performer. And, he saw formula that worked in rock and that would work in hip hop. And, I think in many ways, You know, Jimmy's genre agnostic, right? It didn't really matter that this was hip hop or that was rock. The point was the formula works and it works in whatever genre you put it forward in. So, at one of my other favorite Jimmy Stories was, I don't remember which song this was, what was it? It was, maybe it was off the chronic or doggy style and that he couldn't get the, radio stations to play it, because it was too obscene or whatever. And so, he just bought like 32nd or 62nd slots, or maybe he bought like, full three minute slots on drive time in LA just terrestrial radio and just played the song and people didn't realize that it was an ad, and they just, they loved the song and they started calling the radio stations requesting it, and that's how they rocketed it to the top. Which, do you remember what song it was? it's, not such, of course, the listeners are gonna be like, oh  [00:14:41] Dan Runcie: someone's gonna come back and ping us about it.  [00:14:44] Zack Greenburg: But I just, I love that story and it's, just like classic Jimmy Iovine, you know, you know, and it works. and I think also, you know, to your earlier point, like monetizing the pearl clutching, the best way to, get somebody to want something is to tell 'em they can't have it, right? I mean, so whoever's mom is like clutching their pearls, but the kid is like, wait a minute, my mom is freaking out and I can't have this record, like, what is this record that I can't have? Even if they didn't know what it was, you know? and I think in a funny way, like that era, you know, the whole parental advisory sticker, I mean, that became like, you know, like almost a badge of honor,  [00:15:18] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah, I was a marketing employee at that point.  [00:15:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, exactly. and you see that, know, obviously throughout music, but even, to draw parallels, with basketball, which as we get into talk about, beats by Dre, you know, I think there are a ton of them. But like one of the reasons that, Eric Jordan did so well early on was because they were like finding Jordan for wearing them. And this was a big story, you know, he was kind of like breaking the rules by wearing, cuz it, you know, the sneakers they had to be like white in the nba, white sneakers. We could only have a certain percentage with color on them. And like the Jordans were 50% red or something. And, this was like a big problem and, you know, resulting in fines. But Nike decided to just pay the fines and take the publicity. And I think that sort of attitude is, the one that was, you know, adopted by Jimmy and, you know, by Interscope more broadly throughout.  [00:16:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah, great story. And I think that speaks a lot to both the blessing and to be honest, in some ways the curse of, Jimmy, what Jimmy's great at, and some of Jimmy's challenges as well, because from a leadership perspective and from the risk taken perspective, he was always willing to go there and spend the money to make the things happen, right? Whether it was taking a less lucrative deal to work with Death Row because you're working with Death Row, what you're able to put out, right? Three other first four albums they put out are classics, you have the chronic, you have Doggy Style, you have the above the Rim soundtrack. They just came so strong. And even that moment when they're able to have that cover on vibe, that is just such an infamous cover of, you know, the three main artists and show together. No one else could really do that, and that's why that does stay as strong as it is. But with that, Jimmy also did get a lot of criticism for overspending and not necessarily having as many checks of balances in place. A lot of people felt that, you know Doug Morris, who, this was a little bit later, but Doug Morris, who was leading Universal at the time, pretty much gave him a green light to do a lot of the things he wanted to do. And I remember in the nineties he had side Tom Jones, which was in many ways a bit antithetical to like how he's been running the business so far to spend the money on an act like that. And then even some of the things later on with Apple Music, and I mean, that's a whole nother conversation, but it's the way that the money was spent, worked well when it worked well. But then things don't work out, everyone has, you know, the criticism ready and some, some businesses that can work well, but in other businesses it can be a little bit challenging. [00:17:47] Zack Greenburg: Right. Yeah. absolutely. And, you know, I think as with many businesses though, if you spend a lot of money and you spend it, you know, intelligently or at least you know, in the right direction, maybe you overspend a little bit. If you spend in the right direction, you know, the rewards accrue to you. And, you know, I don't know if I'm getting too ahead of myself here, but. Just while we're on the topic of controversy, you know, just the whole corporate history of Interscope, it had started off as a, or it eventually was a joint venture between, Time Warner and then Field and Iovine. And in 1995, after all this controversy, with some of the lyrics and, you know, Dolores Tucker, you know, and all this T ime Warner divested, sold it's half of the company to field an Ivy for 150 million bucks. And then year later they just turned around and sold that half for 200 million back to Seagram. And, you know, so they made a tidy little $75, 85 million in like a year, you know, after, having their hand force by this controversy. So, it's just kind of funny how that all works out.  [00:18:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought that up. But I think we could get into some of the categories now cuz some of this probably fits there with that too. At least, I'd say the biggest signing here, I think the biggest signing, there's a number of them in Interscopes, 30 plus year history, but I think it has to be this Death Row deal. [00:19:02] Zack Greenburg: I think the death row deal, because it kind of paves the way for everybody else. But, I would say though, if there were a single artist that, you know, sort of, if you had to pick one artist to define Interscope, I'd probably go with Eminem. I mean, just in terms of like the overall, the controversy, the evolution, the sales. I mean, you know, just, nobody can touch Eminem from a sales perspective. you know, certainly when it comes to hip hop, over the past, you know, couple decades and, you know, just, all of the, kind of, the good and the bad and everything that came together. I mean, you know, but that doesn't happen unless you have Death Row. It doesn't happen unless you have Dr. Dre. I mean, you know, if you say like, what artist was most critical to Interscope overall, like on a broader kind of like holistic spectrum, I'd probably go with Dre. but as far as assigning, I don't know. It'd be hard to top that in my book.  [00:19:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think Eminem is a good counter there because this is kind of like the cash money conversation we had then, right? Do you say that it's Lil Wayne or do you say it's Drake and it actually is Drake from a pure numbers perspective, but obviously Drake doesn't happen without Lil Wayne and the same thing as here with Dre and Eminem and then everything else there. And Eminem is specifically because I think even if you looked at the 2010s, he's still probably up there in terms of the most commercially successful artist. He's already number one of the two thousands. He was already pretty high up from the nineties just given the work that he did in the late two thousands and his. In 2022, his greatest Hits album was the most popular rap album in the UK. And this is a album that's 17 years old, a greatest hits album. And then you just look at the streaming numbers. I'm pretty sure he has two of the three most streamed songs of the two thousands being Lose Yourself and Till I Collapse, which wasn't even like a big single at the time, but ended up being a staple on workout playlist. So yeah,  [00:20:57] Zack Greenburg: and he has remained relevant in a way. I mean, I think if you walk down the street and you ask the average, you know, 15 year old, they'll know who Eminem is and they might not know who Dr. Dre is.  [00:21:08] Dan Runcie: Which is wild to say, right?  [00:21:10] Zack Greenburg: I know,  [00:21:11] Dan Runcie: Wild. Yeah,  [00:21:12] Zack Greenburg: It's crazy, but I think but I think it 's also true, for better or worse, so,  [00:21:17] Dan Runcie: What's the best business move in, Interscopes done? [00:21:20] Zack Greenburg: I think it might be cheating a little bit because it was part Interscope and it was also part Universal more broadly. but I would go with beats, right? Just, you know, by way of background for those who don't know the full story, you know, uh, Jimmy Iovine and Dr. Dre founded Beats in, gosh, what was it, 2008? Something like that.  [00:21:36] Dan Runcie: Yep, 08'  [00:21:37] Zack Greenburg: But like from the very beginning, you know, the story goes that they're like walking down the beach in Malibu and, Dre has some kind of sneaker deal on the table and he says, you know, Jimmy, should I take this sneaker deal? And Jimmy goes, you know, like, F sneakers, let's sell speakers. And so that's how Beats was born. Is that exactly how it went down, you know, we'll never know, but it's a great story. and You know, to kind of tie it back to what we were talking about earlier with Air Jordan, they really did follow the Air Jordan Playbook in a lot of ways. And, when I wrote my book Three Kings, which was about Dre, Diddy and Jay-Z, the Dre section really focused a lot about, you know, beats and sort of how Dre set up this business and everything with Jimmy. And, you know, I actually went to the former CEO of Best Buy and I said, how did you sort of like, get kids to pay 200 bucks for a pair of headphones when like, they had been paying 200 bucks for sneakers before? And he said, well, we very consciously told our salespeople, when somebody walks in, you've gotta tell them like, you know, you're competing with Jordan not Bose, you know, you're gonna tell that kid like you know, this headphones set is like, more interesting for your wardrobe than that pair of sneakers or, you know, like that's how you're gonna really kind of win and create a category, not just sort of become the, best player in an old category. And, I think that was like the brilliant thing that they did. But the way that they got it to happen was they got full buy-in from Interscope and from the parent company, universal. And actually Universal invested a pretty big chunk of money into Beats. so that, you know, I think gosh, I don't remember exactly what it was, but I think when Apple finally bought them out, in 2014, I think Jimmy and Dre had 25 to 30% each. I think Universal had something like 20%. LeBron had a little bit and, will I am, but, you know, the fact that Universal was bought in, the Interscope was bought in, and that Jimmy was able to get them to put, beats headphones in like every single, I don't remember if it was Interscope video or all universal videos. I think it might've just been Interscope.  [00:23:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, they had 'em in Ineterscope cuz like they had 'em in like Gaga videos and like she would wear them and stuff.  [00:23:39] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And it's like, it's brilliant. Like what a brilliant move. So, you know, off of the two, that, whatever they put into it, intermediate, a lot of that was free, right? They just put in, you know, their own free product placement. They have to do anything and they help build this, you know, build beats into this $3 billion company. and so, you know, I, I don't know how the pie sort of divided, but it ended up being, you know, worth hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, to the sort of universal Interscope family. And then, you know, also, you know, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars for Jimmy and Dre. So, there are a lot of great signings. I'm sure they made a ton of money off of Eminem and all these other artists, but like, it's really hard to top that one. And, they just really knew how to do it. They really knew how to, I mean, Jimmy, you know, yeah. Again, it's a perfect partnership. Dre is this perfectionist artist and Jimmy is the market critter. And I remember, man, it must have been like 2010 or 2011, I got invited to this like launch of some new Beats thing, for New York media only. And, you know, there were like 30 people there and it was Jimmy and Dre and they were kind of like standing around in this, big conference room. And, you know, Jimmy was just like talking and yacking it up and telling stories and he told the story about the walking down the beach and, you know, sneakers or speakers and Dre's just kind of nodding and, you know, chiming in occasionally, but like, that was their deal. you know, Jimmy, Jimmy was the talker and Andre was the, you know, the, the quiet genius artist. and that was a pretty potent formula.  [00:25:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that was my answer too. Beats has to be the best deal. All the reasons you mentioned as well. They also saw a huge opportunity with speakers as well because at this point, the predominant way that so many people were listening to music were those cheap white iPhone headphones or the iPod headphones, I should say, at the time that people were listening to. And I remember Jimmy was adamant about how poor the sound quality was coming out of them, especially given how much focus there was in the nineties around surround sound and both speakers and all this stuff. And sound shifted to these very cheap plastic headphones that just came for free in the iPod, cases. So them putting a bit more money into the technology there. Granted, there were other companies that did come through and really expand further, and that's how we're able to have products like the AirPod Pro Maxes, which are now several hundred dollars more than beets ever were because beets was considered to be expensive at that point. And now people will buy those like it's nothing the same way that people will buy Yeezys. Like it's nothing. So that other point about category creation, not just building within an existing area was key there. [00:26:20] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think it's also worth noting, you know, Jimmy clearly looked up to Steve Jobs a lot and, you know, took cues from Steve Jobs creating the iPod, right? I mean, that was a very, like, he created the iPod. It was a music thing that helped basically revive apple and, and get it on the track that it is today. And you know, there, I don't think there's an iPhone if there's no iPod, but, you know, how did they get the iPod to be so sexy? It was like, It was those YouTube U2 commercials with the like, hello, hello to place golf to go, you know, and everybody was dancing and, and the crappy white, you know, earbuds with the, you know, chords and everything. you know, that was like, that was a creation of a category. And you know, I think that Jimmy looked at that and he thought, gosh, you know, I could do something like that. And I think he always thought it would be a great fit for Apple but Steve Jobs, you know, while he was alive, I think he kind of thought he could do it all himself, and he didn't really want to be involved in, you know, in that side of the business. So I think it's why, it wasn't until after Steve was gone that, you know, Apple came in and, and bought beats. But yeah, I remember reporting on that deal when it happened and happened at the worst. I was like, I had just gotten on a flight to like go to Italy for vacation with my wife. and I woke up at 7:00 AM and we landed or whatever, and I had like 70 texts and it, you know, it was like be, while I was over the Atlantic Ocean Beats, had gotten sold to Apple. And that, video came out with Dre saying how he was, you know, the new king of the Forbes list. And,  [00:27:54] YT Clip 1: The Forbes list just changed. They need, Hey, it came out like two weeks ago. They need to update the Forbes list, shit just changed in a big what? Oh my understand that. Oh my. The first billionaire in hip hop. Right here from the motherfucking West Coast. Believe it. Oh.  [00:28:11] Zack Greenburg: and so I just said to my wife, I was like, honey, we're gonna have to hang out in this airport for a little while before we started our vacation. I was like, you know, trying to put together a story and figure out what happened. but I think that one of the things that people talked about, you know, and at the time everybody's like, that's a crazy amount of money, you know how, you know how like Apple never spends money like this, you know, what's the deal? But a lot of the scuttlebutt was that they kind of like viewed Jimmy and Dre as, you know, maybe not like a replacement Steve Jobs, but almost like a piece of the Steve Jobs Voltron that they were gonna try to recreate, you know, like Tim Cook would, you know, the, would be the brain and the like, Dre and Jimmy would be the heart and somebody else would be the, I don't know, like something like that. They would piece it back together and get these little aspects of Steve and that they thought that Jimmy and Dre could really help out on the marketing side of it. and, you know, I don't know, I know that they had kind of like, there was a period of a few years where they were getting paid to hang around and, do stuff. And, you know, they did some, I think they did some more commercials, promotion, that kind of thing. But I never got the sense that they really were like, all right, you know, apple for life. And I think they kind of just, the thing ran its course, and, you know, they, took the last bit of their cash and off they went to do the next thing but it was interesting at least. that a lot of people really thought that that was kind of like part of the reason why, the deal was for such a big number, you know, that it was almost like an acquihire type of situation.  [00:29:36] Dan Runcie: Right, and the other big piece of it was the streaming service that they had created at the time. And Apple wanted to get into streaming. They didn't have a streaming service. They were starting to develop one. So Beats music eventually became Apple Music, and then that's how Jimmy became so integral with  [00:29:52] Zack Greenburg: And, I think even by that point, beats already had some really interesting people, I think like t Trenton Resner and so forth who were like deeply involved with it. And I think, you know, part of that was appealing to Apple too. that they felt that, you know, not just that the product existed, but that it, you know, that, the people existed who could kind of like grow it within Apple and, you know, eventually turn it into, into, iTunes like, you know, Apple Music and so forth. [00:30:17] Dan Runcie: Right, which speaks to that partnership in Jimmy's connections, right? He had been working with trend since the nine Inch Nails days. So yeah, all comes full circle. what do you think is the dark horse move or the dark horse thing that Interscope has that doesn't get talked about as much? So mine for this, I actually think it's the longevity that they've had with leadership there because I think that other record labels, this gets talked about a fair amount, but, and it's true for auto scope, I feel like it just doesn't get talked about in that same way. So since 1990, there's been two people that have been the head of it. So you had. Jimmy from what, 89 or 90, the founding until 2014, and then John Janick takes over and he's been there for almost a decade. And then if not more, if you just consider, you know, I think the total time working in the organization. So that's like you think about other organizations too, whether. You look at a team like the Pittsburgh Steelers, there've been two head coaches there since the early nineties. You look at the Green Bay Packers, there's been two quarterbacks that they've had as starters since the early nineties, and those teams have been consistently competitive and you rarely see them getting the first round or the number one draft pick. I think like Mike Tomlin hasn't had a losing season, and in some ways I kind of think about Interscope in that way. Yeah, sure. Every record label's had ups and downs, but these teams that have consistency, especially in an industry like music where there's so much turnover, so many of these other labels that are their competitors can be revolving doors in this way, which can lead to a lot of challenges for people to really be able to execute a strategy. This is one thing that I think has helped their longevity quite a bit. [00:32:01] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I would say for my dark course, I would say John Janick, specifically, and I think people don't really realize, you know, just like how successful he's been cuz everybody talks about Jimmy. But, you know, first of all, at this point John's been there, I mean, he's been running the show for almost 10 years, which is nearly as long as Jimmy was. And, you know, who knows how much of the time before, Jimmy left in 2014, John was actually really, you know, running things on a day-to-day basis. So, you know, the, just like so many times you see a, visionary founder like Jimmy, leave a company and then, you know, the thing just kind of like Peters out, but, you know, I mean, under John Janick, you know, look at, you know, like Billy Eilish for example. I mean, I think Kendrick Lamar was also under his watch, probably Machine Gun kelly must have been under his watch too.  [00:32:51] Dan Runcie: Yep. And then even Olivia, Rodrigo more recently.  [00:32:54] Zack Greenburg: I mean, what a huge, you know, like, so that's definitely like on the level of, you know, of the biggest acts that Jimmy was able to bring in. And you know, it's like, you know, even with some of them it was really more Dre than it was Jimmy. So I think that's, you know, yeah, I think John deserves a lot of credit too. you know, and we haven't talked about Lady Gaga, so she's not exactly a dark horse. but, you know, lady Gaga is somebody who came in under Jimmy, but like, jimmy should not get credit for Lady Gaga because Lady gaga was kinda like languishing, you know  [00:33:23] Dan Runcie: He was on the bench chilling and then like it was like the Akon's, the one that's like, Hey, what about her?  What about  [00:33:30] Zack Greenburg: And I remember I interviewed him, for Forbes. This was back in, you know, oh nine or 2010 or something like that. And, and I was like, so tell me the Lady Gaga story. And he said, basically I heard her stuff. And I was like, this is amazing. And I called her up, or I called, I think you called maybe Troy Carter, who was managing her at the time and said, you know, I wanna assign you, to my Interscope imprint. And she's like, I'm already on Interscope. So, so they just kind of like moved her around, within Interscope and, you know, they were able to, you know, that first song Just Dance. a lot of people forget that was like, when that came out. Akon was much bigger than Lady Gaga and, you know, that was at the height of Akon's fame. He's not out there as much now, but he is out, you know, he's all over the world making probably even more money than he was, back then. But, you know, yeah. He was hosting or appearing on SNL with Lonely Island and all those guys and, you know, he's kind of like showing up in the back of just dance, you know? Oh, yeah, you know, doing his Akon thing and, you know, and kind of really helped get her off the ground you know, and then just kind of like, pieced out and Lady Gaga became this incrediblesuperstar. So, you know, I think that's, certainly some serendipity for Interscope there, but, yeah, I wouldn't give Jimmy full credit for that one.  [00:34:45] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely not Interscope, collectively. Sure they had her on the roster, but yeah, that one has to go to Akon on that one by extension, who himself, you know, clearly worked with Interscope and then just given, cuz we didn't even mention him himself, just that whole run he had from like oh four to what, 08', maybe 2010 if you wanna go a little bit longer. He was everywhere.  [00:35:05] Zack Greenburg: yeah, yeah.  [00:35:06] Dan Runcie: So of course we talked a lot about consistency. We talked a lot about Janet and the role that he's been able to do there, and I think consistency does naturally lead itself going further. So let's flash forward 10 years, let's go to 2030, 2033. Do we still think that Interscope will be at the level that it is now, where if you look at the market share numbers, it's roughly alternating, right? Around 10% of recorded music may be a little bit less, but I feel like it's like them Republic and then Columbia alternating to some extent. And it all kind of depends on who releases when but do you think that changes? Do you think they're more likely to stay there? Or what do you think 10 years from now  [00:35:46] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think they're gonna stay, I mean, it's not like, one of these situations where their top artists are leaving or, you know, you're really too concerned about it, or they're kind of in the wrong genre mix. I mean, they're really heavy in hip hop. you know, they have some of the biggest stars out right now. I mean, we already talked about Olivia Rodrigo, Kendrick. Billy Eilish obviously is enormous Machine Gun Kelly, but you know, they have Black Pink. That's huge. Like, that could be a big place for growth  [00:36:11] Dan Runcie: You got SZA through the TDE deal, right?  [00:36:13] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. yeah. I mean, that's a great point, you know, hard to find anybody, who's having like a bigger moment that says it right now, so, You know, there's a lot. let's say that to go back to the sports analogy, it's not like this is a team of like, you know, 38 year olds who are nearing the end, you know, this is, like a win now team, with plenty of talent in the pipeline. and they've proven that they can keep working the farm system or something to continue the sports metaphor. But, and you know, I mean, John himself is not an old guy. I mean, John is,  [00:36:40] Dan Runcie: Mid Forties?  [00:36:41] Zack Greenburg: You know, I I forget old he is. Exactly. Yeah, you're talking, you know, where are they gonna be in 2030? I mean, you know, he'll be like in his early fifties and, still I think doing what he's doing, and doing it really well. So, you know. Absolutely. Yeah, I don't really see them fading. And if anything, you know, all it takes is like, You know, like another Monster Billy Eilish album in a given year. you know, and they start to gain even a little more market share. So I think they're in a pretty darn good place.  [00:37:09] Dan Runcie: And it's arguably one of the best jobs in the recorded music industry because of the amount of leeway that I think Janet and by extension, the Interscope Geffen a and m umbrella is given relative to a lot of the other labels that are either under Universal or even others under the majors in terms of the decision making, the things that you could do, and when you have that much control based on his relationship with Lucian compared to others, it does make a huge difference.  [00:37:37] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And you know, I think another, another guy who's kind of in the background, who's been in the background, you know, for a really long time there is Steve Berman. He's another executive, who doesn't get you know, like a ton of limelight, but, you know, is kind of like quietly, like, like the cons. He's been kind of the cons area type over the years. and, you know, I think that might be part of the, you know, continuation, the connective tissue between Iovine, and, john Jank as well. [00:38:02] Dan Runcie: Right. Good point, especially just given how important lawyers and they are in terms of the influence direction of this industry. Another thing that I think is interesting, just thinking about the future, is also looking at the past of Interscope and how this record label did start and rise because of this controversy, because of the pro clutching business model. Do you think that could work today? Because I have my skepticism, but what are your thoughts? [00:38:31] Zack Greenburg: I think it depends, you know, what sort of pearl clutching is about, right? I think, know, in, in many ways the world is a nicer place than it was in the nineties. Like, you know, things were kind of a little rough and tumble in the nineties and it wasn't as sensitive a time as it is now. you know, I think, I think in general it's, good that, you know, we're like a little nicer, a little more sensitive, but, you know, in other ways, you know, I think, sometimes perhaps too much. But, you know, I think that, you know, certainly when it comes to music, I don't know, in a like this moment, for whatever reason, music isn't at the. Forefront of the culture wars and the way that it was in the nineties. And you know, instead it's like books in Florida, right? I mean, who knew? But, you know, people aren't really like, kind of, this is not a, like a campaign issue in the same way, that it might have been in the 90s, you're not seeing as many politicians sounding off about it. I mean, I think certainly you're hearing stuff, about, you know, can lyrics be used as evidence in court? you know, which is, can be a really troubling topic. But, you know, I think the sort of focus of that argument is, it's not like in the middle of national campaigns in the way that this was in the 1990s. So, yeah, I think, you know, like Interscope certainly as an experience. walking the line and it's maybe a little bit less of a delicate line, that they need to walk these days for just whatever reasons, with the political headwinds.  [00:40:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I don't think it would work in the same way because I think the people that do try to create shock value were so desensitized to things compared to when we were the way things were in the nineties. Even for people that weren't that threat to society, but because of how they were depicted, it was easier to do that and still release great music, right? The chronic could be a shock value type of work, but it's still something that is critically acclaimed. That is in the National Registry and Library of Congress and all of these other areas. But now the stuff that creates shock value in music, whether it's even someone that's like more on the personality side, like a dj academics or someone like that will literally just say like, you know, the wildest shit just to go viral or partner with right wing organizations in order to create momentum that still has this area where it lives in somewhere like YouTube, where yes, you can get a following and you can make a living and you know, do things for yourself. But I think there's somewhat of a ceiling to that in terms of how much you can like, create, you know, broader impact and truly monetize the bases and the masses. And some of it even extends to artists as well, like those, I think someone like NBA Young Boy is quite popular and has had a bit of a number of transgressions in his track record, but still I think there's a pretty big gap of, you know, him relative to like some of the other names you mentioned just from some of the exposure and opportunities that he's given that doesn't lend itself to that. So, you know, Interscope in the early nineties probably wouldn't have wanted to try to sign Olivia Rodrigo because it didn't make sense. But it makes perfect sense now just given where things are and where things are going. So you can maybe do it on a niche level, but I think it's hard to have shock value sell in mass quantities and for the mainstream in that same way.  [00:41:55] Zack Greenburg: Well, I think it's also just harder to shock people now, right? I mean, you know.  [00:41:58] Dan Runcie: Or desensitized  [00:42:00] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you were to put out the chronic today, you know, with, the marijuana leaf on the cover of it, it's like, and you know, and like this has been legal in California for like how long, you know? And certainly in terms of like things you could say or do that would be truly shocking. It's like after Donald Trump has been president in the things, you know, that are kind of, came out of that, it's like, you know, I don't really know many things an artists could do that would be more shocking, you know, and in this sort of like, hilarious, I dunno if it's hilarious, but this, let's say, ironic juxtaposition, you know, you had Eminem, the king of shock value Like making a track against Donald Trump when he was in office, you know, you have the rappers protesting against the politicians, instead of the other way around. So I think we're still, as a society, been kind of turned on our head, you know, by some of the developments of the past. you know, let's say eight years, eight years plus the past decade or so. you know, it's, guess in some ways hard for politicians to be complaining so much about music when, a lot of the obscenity is coming from them. So,  [00:43:05] Dan Runcie: Right, and I think too, you were mentioning about how what Congress or what the American government can rally against in how so much of the nineties was. I still remember that infamous cover of Snoop Dogg on the cover of Newsweek, and I forget what the title of the magazine was, but it was something, along the lines of, oh, this is the greatest threat to America, or this is the greatest threat to our country, or something like that someone could probably pick me and find it, or maybe you'll link to in the show notes. And that's what people were able to get riled up around, right? Now, the biggest thing in music that has gotten anyone on a congressional level or congress level riled up is ticketmaster and Live Nation and Taylor Swift's tickets, which just shows how different things are, people used to be riled up about the content. Now this is a way to try to get at big business or whatever the exact complaint is. So, such a different time.  [00:43:58] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, No, I Couldn't agree more. [00:44:01] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So we definitely spoke a lot of praise about the current era of where things are with the Interscope and the work that Janet has done the past decade. If you were in his shoes, would you be doing anything differently? And I do think that he's done a few things. So you mentioned black pink earlier. So there's clearly a way to be able to pivot and move more into music that isn't from the United States. It isn't domestic, and you're able to rise there, clearly done different types of deals from a flexibility perspective. Some artists do have, licensing deals like Olivia Rodrigo will own her masters for the long term just based on what she's shared about the nature of her contract moving forward. But for him himself, I mean, I think there's other IP things that could be interesting, but what does the type of things that Jimmy was able to do back in the late 2010 or late two thousands with beats? Like what could that look like or what could that look like for Interscope  [00:44:59] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. You know, I think it's a different time. One of the things that's changed so much is over the past few years, I would say it's like, it's not quite as cool to be rich anymore, you know? I think sort of the Bernie Sanders movement, the sort of like this, right? I remember seeing it at Forbes, you know, when I started out it was like, woo, like I wanna be a billionaire and  [00:45:20] Dan Runcie: The Forbes Remix  [00:45:22] Zack Greenburg: Right. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you had, Jay-Z, Diddy, and 50 being like, you know, the Forbes, yeah, they put out this Forbes 1, 2, 3 billionaire remix they called it. But you know, even now, even within the past couple years, you know, certainly, I think the Pandemic really crystallized this. But even before that, you know, with sort of like Bernie and, that whole, you know, movement, There was this kind of questioning of like, should there even be billionaires? And you know, I remember starting to see, people who you had thought, you would've thought would be, you know, jumping to be on the cover of Forbes. Just say like, eh, you know, like, I don't want to be seen as crowing about my wealth. so, you know, I think that's a big cultural change. And that's post beats, right? That's post, you know, Dr. Dre's situation. And, you know, I think that there's certainly a lot of leeway for Interscope still, to be entrepreneurial and they've always done that. But I think the challenge for Interscope or for anyone really is like, how can you be entrepreneurial in a way that is sort of like, you know, not necessarily charitable per se, but has some kind of impact, you know, like some kind of impact investing sort of thing. how can you, like, make money but, you know, drive change at the same time? I think that's sort of like, as we look going forward into the, you know, celebrity earning, you know, celebrity business sphere, I think that's gonna be the big question because it's no longer the thing that's just, it's cool to make a bunch of money on some random app or, you know, selling, some crypto thing as we've seen. And you know, you can get a lot of blowback, people think you're selling out. People think you're greedy people don't think you're selling outta greedy just cause you're doing something business related. But, you know, I think, over the past couple years it's become a lot more like, well, you know, is this something that really helps the world are using your money for good? and so I think whatever it is, if it's gonna be public facing and, you know, and I think. That's the value when you have a stable of celebrities, right, is to do something public facing. It's like, what is this doing, to help the world. So, you know, I think there are a lot of ways to take that, but certainly, you know, I think that's a bigger, bigger and bigger component going forward.  [00:47:22] Dan Runcie: This is something that has changed in a relatively quick time span. You even think back to the Obama era and just the Obama presidency and just how music was and how people interacted and thought about music. You look at a album like Watch the Throne In, which I do think was one of the more popular albums from that decade. Granted, I don't think JayZ or Ye are even on the terms or desire to put something like, like that out again. But if they put that out about now, it would not get the same reception. There would be all these think pieces about, oh, here are these two men talking about, you know, their, you know, Hugo watches and there other, other bends and all this stuff. And people would be complaining about that in a way where just as recent as 2011, they were celebrated, like people, like revered so many of the songs. And just the talk about black excellence and wealth and even some of the conversations around Jay-Z himself as a figure, I know you know this well as probably some of the responses you've gotten over the years when you've talked about Empire State of mind and how people react to him, statements he's said and stuff like that. And yeah, we're just in a very different spot and now we're kind of in this space where, Yes, people can have commercial success. People, businesses can do it too. But I think it's especially difficult for companies in music because of so much historical context of how people view the record label as the enemy. People view the record label as this, and then even when the topic of the prices potentially raising for some of these streaming services, the number one thing you often hear from fans is, well, I hope that extra dollar or $2 for a potential raise in the streaming service goes back to the artist. And it's like, yes, you, you do eventually want those things, but we're losing the opportunity to talk about the value that these record labels create because of how media disseminates, right? If you talk about, oh, Olivia Rodrigo has a very favorable record deal. No one wants to hear that. But if there's ever a report, oh, Olivia Rodrigo's upset about, you know, Interscope, that thing would be a news topic for five days. Cuz that's where we are right now. [00:49:27] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And you know, so to to your point, I mean, you mentioned my book, empire State of Mind, which was this business focused biography I wrote of Jay-Z. it came out in 2011. but you know, It was such a different world back then. And when it came out, you know, their response was basically like, whoa, awesome. Like, this is Jay-Z's blueprint for how to, you know, be a centi millionaire. And this is so cool because now I can apply this to my career, or I can, you know, learn some lessons from him. And, you know, and there was just definitely like a sentiment of people rooting for Jay-Z to become a billionaire, race to a billion, and who's gonna get there first? Is it Jay-Z or Diddy or, you know, whoever. And, you know, and then it happened and Jay-Z you know, crossed the threshold in, I think it was 20, early 2020, something like that. I think late 2019, early 2020 was when we put him in the magazine as a billionaire for Forbes. but even when that, like, by the time that happened, you know, about 10 years later, I put out the billionaire edition of the book. after, you know, let's say, what was it, in 2021, this was 10 years later. It was a totally different story, right? people were like, why is this guy, you know, like, who cares? Like, you know, like he should be giving it all of it back, you know? Why are there billionaires in our society? Something's wrong in society that has billionaires. So, you know, and I think it has gone, that narrative has gone even faster than Jay-Z has kind of evolved into this, like very socially aware, you know, type of philanthropic mogul, you know, people are not even that into the idea of like, oh, I'll make a lot of money so I can give it back, people are like, just, you know, do the good, like do philanthropic stuff, do impact stuff the whole way through and like, don't even try to become a billionaire. So, it really is such a different world, and it's, been fascinating to write about this stuff as these attitudes have changed on a broader societal level for sure.  [00:51:25] Dan Runcie: Did you hesitate naming it the Billionaire Edition, knowing like this would change and seeing things over the years? [00:51:32] Zack Greenburg: Well, I had it in mind that it would be a cool thing to do whenever he did become a billionaire, because it was like, it was almost like the realization of a prophecy. It's like, you know, in, in 2011, I sort of like, I'm telling you he's gonna be billionaire and he's telling you, you know, and it's like, okay, here it is. He's a billionaire, you know, and I actually wanted to get like a, gilded cover and do the kind of watch the throne type of thing and you know, like embossed gold and all that stuff. But, it's not the right era. I mean, like, you're saying, it's just not, it's that era anymore. So yeah, I did wonder, like, should I kind of like back off of that narrative. But, you know, to go back to the Jimmy Iovine Interscope conversation, it's like, whether it's good or bad, it starts a conversation and you want the conversation to start, so that people will read the book, you know? And it's not like, a bad thing for me if people think it's bad that Jay-Z's a billionaire, it's just a fact. And even since I put out the Billionaire edition, he's like, more than doubled his net worth, you know, again. So that's just, that's just how he operates. And, you know, that's Jay-Z.  [00:52:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, you had to put out something. So much had changed since when you first put that book out. And this is how, in many ways the. Business model of books works when there is something to be able to add, that's a refresher new forward based on this one. you had to do it. So, yeah. I think it made sense. But to bring this all full circle with Interscope in this conversation, the last thing we'll dive into is who is the biggest winner, artist, executive producer, so on from everything that has happened with Interscope in the past 33 years.  [00:53:09] Zack Greenburg: Hmm. it's a great question. I mean, to me it's between Jimmy and Dre. but I would probably go with Jimmy because, you know, Dre was gonna be centimillionaire, you know, music legend no matter what. And although Jimmy had done a lot of great work, you know, in the rock world before then, and I'm sure, you know, was, very adequately compensated. You know, he wasn't sort of like a, an international business superstar in the way that he became as a result of, Interscope. And, you know, Jimmy and Dre both got a lot of money out of it. but I think Jimmy really got a lot more than he would've otherwise. in his, prior iteration of his career and Dre, you know, I mean, Dre has founded a bunch of things, right? And Interscope, you know, obviously he wasn't the founder of Interscope, but, you know, I kind of tied B to Interscope and that whole thing together. So it, Dre had lots of different paths to wealth. and so did Jimmy, but I think Dre had more, and, Jimmy kind of like ultimately got more out of it.  [00:54:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think between the two of them, even if Interscope had said no back in 92 or 91, whenever the initial deal was made, I do think that Dre would've likely found a home. Dre and Suge would've found a home. It's still been able to do something similar elsewhere. Maybe it would've made the Tupac thing a little bit more challenging, but I think they still would've figured that out too.  [00:54:30] Zack Greenburg: Yeah.  [00:54:31] Dan Runcie: I don't think the same would necessarily be true for Jimmy though, because if you don't have them, you don't have this. And a lot of this, I'm sure a lot of people listening to this unlikely watch the Defiant ones or maybe you've seen should do a few interviews. I don't know if a lot of that would work.  But I think I'll actually take a different approach. I think the person that probably won the most, just from a situation perspective, I know we've talked about him a fair amount, but I'll say Janet with this one because he didn't build this company himself. But the fact that when it's your time to come up, you have this opportunity to be able to step into, you have this much leeway, this much assets that already work in your favor because we just know how valuable the bat catalogs are. You walk into that position and then that has you then. Then that just makes it much more easy for you to have things set up because we know how a lot of this stuff is, right? People leave record labels all the time, especially if there's an opportunity to go to that next level. And this was before streaming really broke out. So if it wasn't Interscope, it may have been one of the other opportunities that could have opened up. And for him to be able to take that and then continue things for the next decade and then prove that, to our point earlier, this isn't just a one trick pony. This was able to live beyond and in some ways, maybe even operated things a bit more efficiently than Jimmy did as well with some of the recklessness at points from spending too. I do think that there's a case to be made for Janet, in terms of how that's been able to help that career too. [00:56:00] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good pick too. Although, I think probably if you're going in terms of wealth creation, Jimmy,  [00:56:06] Dan Runcie: Jimmy, for sure. Yeah, a hundred  [00:56:08] Zack Greenburg: you gotta give it to Jimmy. But point, taken, for sure.  [00:56:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Well, good stuff. This one was fun. I feel like after this we definitely went on a few different tangents on beats about even one on Apple music. We didn't explore too deeply. And even some of the other record labels here, there's a lot we could dig back into with this one.  But yeah, Keith, and though controversy can sell, but not in the same way it did in the nineties.  [00:56:33] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, that, that's absolutely, absolutely,  [00:56:36] Dan Runcie: Well, Zach been a pleasure to us all, man. [00:56:39] Zack Greenburg: Thanks, Dan. Have a good one. [00:56:41] Dan Runcie: You too, man.    In the 1990s, Interscope Records played by its own rules. Most new labels started with big stars, but Interscope had a clean slate. Most labels were scared of rap music, but Interscope leaned in. Co-founded by Jimmy Iovine, a producer, and Ted Field, a film producer, people questioned whether they had the chops to make it.


The label has had a hand in some of the most memorable music moments like Death Row Records, the rise of Eminem, and the creation of Beats by Dre headphones. 


To break down Interscope’s success, I brought back Zack O’Malley Greenberg. His book, “Three Kings,” covered Interscope’s story. Together, we unpack what’s made Interscope such a long-standing player in the music industry.


[0:53] The most successful individual label of the past 30 years?

[2:40] Key figures in Interscope’s come-up story

[6:57] Nontraditional way to build a record label 

[11:07] Death Row Records partnership 

[16:44] Biggest signing? 

[19:14] Best business move?

[28:07] Darkhorse business move? 

[33:21] Where will Interscope be in 10 years 

[36:07] Would Interscope’s 90s approach work today?

[43:39] Interscope’s entrepreneurial challenges today 

[50:36] Biggest winner in Interscope history?

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Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog


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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:27] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is all about Interscope Records. It has been one of the most influential record labels since it was started in 1990. This record label has been home to Dr. Dre, Eminem, 50 Cent, Lady Gaga, Olivia, Rodrigo, and countless other names in between. So we talked about what made Death Row records wanna partner with a company like Interscope and what made Interscope succeed time and time again. So we talk about the business model of being able to sell controversy and why that worked well, especially in the 90s. We also talk about leadership and how important it is to have people at the helm that understand what's needed and how that continued to help Interscope time and time again.

We also talk about some of the challenges that Interscope has had and how they're able to navigate that too. And in this episode, very similar to the Cash Money one that we did a couple months ago, Zach and I, that's Zach O'Malley Greenberg, you may know him from his work back when he was at Forbes as the entertainment editor there.

And from the books he's written like Three Kings and Empire State of Mind. We talked about a number of things and answered several questions that we talked about in the Cash Money episode as well. What was the biggest signing? What were the best business moves that were made? What was the Dark Horse move?

What are the missed opportunities? How did this record label handle transitions? And who is the biggest winner overall from the success of Interscope Records, which is now Interscope Geffen A and M today, one of the umbrella labels under Universal Music Group. This is a really fun episode to do, and we're gonna do more of them.

So let us also know if you have any suggestions on other ones you want us to do at the end of the episode, and we'll go from there. Here's our breakdown on Interscope Records. Hope you enjoy it.

[00:02:13] Dan Runcie: This episode is a breakdown on one of the most storied record labels of the past few decades, Interscope Records and we're back to break it down with my guy, Zach O'Malley Greenberg. Zach, welcome back, man. 

[00:02:24] Zack Greenburg: Thanks for having me, as always. 

[00:02:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I knew that this was a topic that was near and dear to you, given the work you covered in the spaces.

Well, this is one of the more interesting record labels, but following their work for years. And just to just kick things off, this record label starts 1990, right at the beginning of a new wave for music and since it's come out, would you say that this is the most successful record label, individual record label that we've seen in music since then?

[00:02:52] Zack Greenburg: I mean, it's certainly hard to think of another one, that's been more reliably at the top, right? I mean, and I think the thing that really sets Interscope apart is it's not like, you know, the label was made off of just one act or two acts or three acts. They just have a, track record of continuing to find, you know, artists that push the envelope, that, you know, break records and that end up at the top of the music scene and, you know, kind of across genres and eras too.

So, you know, and really even across, chief executives, which is I think, pretty unusual. So, I think there's some kind of secret sauce in there and, can't wait to dig into it with you.

[00:03:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think it. In terms of the longevity, in terms of the phases they've gone through, whether it's dominating in hip hop, dominating in pop, dominating in rock, they've been able to do it across genres across decades. The one record label that I do think could also be worth mentioning in this respect is Republic Records started a few years after 1995, but I think there's a few things there too as well.

The consistency and the ability to do consistent deals, win challenging Bit Wars and get some of the top artists. So I do think it would probably have to be one of those two. But from a timeframe perspective, just all of what Interscope was able to do even before things got started at Republic, do give them a edge.

If we're talking past 25 years, that's probably another discussion, but past 30, 32 years, I think Interscope is probably there. I think there's also maybe a case to be made for Columbia or a case to be made for Atlantic as well, but I do think that Interscope, especially just with the way that they went about things a little differently, which we'll get into, but I feel like they have a strong advantage there. 

[00:04:33] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, particularly when it comes to the sort of entrepreneurial spirit, you know, and we've talked about Cash Money and Def Jam and you know, Rockefeller certainly, hip hop, specific record labels that have been uniquely, entrepreneurial, you know, especially given some of their leadership, but like, I think for a label that, you know, kind of delves into pop so much.

And of course Interscope obviously, you know, huge home for hip hop too. But to have that entrepreneurial streak, outside of it, mostly hip hop label. I think that's pretty unusual too in some of the things they've done around beats, which we can get into. you know, j just, you know, being almost, you know, like a venture fund or an incubator as much as a record label in some ways. I think that's another way that Interscope has been, you know, really different from the rest. 

[00:05:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. That beats thing, we'll get into that one in a minute. I feel there's so much to dive into there but let's start with the quick backstory. I'm sure a lot of folks already know this, but there are three main figures that were involved with. The beginning of this record label. You have PBIV, you have Ted Fields, and you have John McLay so. Let's first start with Jimmy. So as many of you know, this was someone that was a record producer. It started as that worked with legendary artisan music, whether it was John Lennon, Springsteen, and several others. And with that, he was able to carve out a lane, figure out what works for him. And I know that now the jump from producer to executive may not seem like it's that much, but back in 89 ' 90', there were a lot of question marks around whether or not this record producer guy could run a business, could he be an executive, and make the decisions and call the shots?

And there were a lot of things that Jimmy did that may seem conventional, but there were a lot that were seen unconventional. But I do think that him having the partnership with others helped craft Interscope to where it is today. And Ted Fields is one of those first, one of those people where the name comes from.

So yeah. Zach, tell us a little bit about Ted and some of his 

[00:06:28] Zack Greenburg: work before. 

Yeah, I mean, you know, and it was, this was at this point, over 30 years ago, but, you know, I was five years old. But kind of looking back on it now, I mean, it seems to me the way these things go, like Ted Field was kind of the money guy. Jimmy was the industry guy and you know, Ted Field was one of the heirs of the Marshall Field Fortune, he had been involved in film production and like race cars and all kinds of things that heirs to Fortunes are option involved in, which are maybe not as lucrative as Interscope Records turned out to be. but interesting nonetheless, he was a producer on, revenge of the Nerds and some other really interesting films.

but yeah. In 1990, he came along, basically thought of Interscope Records as its division of this film company. and he brought on, he teamed up with Jimmy. I think they were actually introduced by the manager of u2. and, David Geffen was sort of involved in negotiations along the way. And, it was like kind of a who's who of the music world, you know, at kind of the cusp of the 1990s there. And so he came in, he brought on John McClain, to run Interscope at first. So John McClain is like one of these people who's incredibly, he might be the most influential person in music who nobody's ever heard of. And, unless you know, you know, John McClain was, critical in Janet Jackson's success.

he's also now become the co-executor of the Michael Jackson estate. you know, really since MJ died, along with John Branca, who's sort of the, public face of it, but, you know, John McClain, if you want to like, try to find a picture of John McClain. I mean, this guy is so, under the radar, but he's so deeply in the mix.

I don't really know how he manages to avoid the spotlight quite as much as he does. But, you know, obviously contributes a ton, of expertise, and as a true power player behind the scenes in the music business. So, you know, you kind of, you kind of put that dream team together and then you have sort of the ingredients for, you know, the beginning of, what we now know as Interscope records. 

[00:08:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I'm glad that you brought up Geffen earlier because when this started, a lot of people looked at Geffen as the model for what this could be, but also how Interscope went about things differently. Geffen's whole thing when he had started Geffen Records was who were the established artists that he could go after?

Again, whether it was Elton John or a few other folks that they were able to really secure, because at the time, the thought was you wanna have the proven people on your roster because it's so hard to be able to build that from the ground up. So not only is Jimmy and the team already going into this from people that don't traditionally have strong music experience in terms of running a music company, at least in late eighties, early nineties, but you also have them try to do it completely with new artists and going in from a new perspective.

And this was part of one of the things that I think helped set them apart because they lead into genres and aspects of genres that other folks avoided. So of course, in the early days of Interscope, they focused more so on rock music. That's what Jimmy was known for. And you had artists, I think their first hit was Ricoh Suave.

They had had some stuff with Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch. So you started to see a little bit of more interesting ways to go about stuff. But then they also had Nine Inch Nails and Marilyn Manson. So you got a vibe for the fact that this wasn't just rock music. They were in many ways going after that shock value like what was the thing that was somewhat controversial, but there was the controversial stuff that did sell and was resonating and they were able to take risks that others weren't, and it worked out to their advantage.

[00:09:58] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And you know, another executive, who deserves mention is Tom Whaley, who came over from, I think it was, he was at Capital and a and r there. And you know, he was the one who had originally signed Tupac, in I think 1991. So that was like way before Tupac was a mainstream success. He was really getting in early, you know, the seed round of Tupac, if you will. and 

[00:10:18] Dan Runcie: Digital underground era of Tupac. 

[00:10:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, whereas maybe Geffen was more of like a series B kind of fund, you know, looking for series B and C, kind of sure things, you know, I think Interscope was really willing to get in there early and Right. They didn't really care if, somebody was controversial.

And I think, I think Jimmy, I think that was part of his genius, was being able to tell like, you know, we shouldn't shy away from controversy. And in fact, you know, as, as long as it's. Not crossing certain lines. controversy can actually be good for a record label because it generates publicity and, you know, certainly as Jimmy got deeper and deeper in, you know, into the hip hop world, you know, I think, he followed that, strategy pretty closely. 

[00:11:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think this speaks to something that worked effectively in business in the nineties as well. There was almost this monetization of pearl clutching, if that makes sense. What is gonna make people actually be like, oh, did so-and-so just say that? And that's why MTV was able to reach heights in the late eighties and early nineties that VH1 necessarily didn't at the time.

And that's why Interscope was able to do things, other labels weren't. And then I think similarly, you even look at gaming back in the day. You look at a company like Sega and the types of games they were willing to release on a council like the SEGA Genesis, they were taking risks that Nintendo didn't wanna take.

And I think we actually saw Sony continue to do that. So I feel like there was this ethos of that in the nineties from the get-go, and Interscope was willing to go there where others weren't.

[00:11:50] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, hundred percent. And, you know, I think it's, also just interesting to know that I think a lot of people look at the Tupac saga and they think about, you know, there's this whole, and we can get into this later, the whole Suge Knight and bailing him out of jail and all that.

But, he was already in the Interscope, family, you know, years before that. So

[00:12:06] Dan Runcie: Right. 

[00:12:07] Zack Greenburg: It all kind of comes together. 

[00:12:08] Dan Runcie: Oh, definitely. And I think with that it's time to talk about what are the most important things that does set the stage for this record label. In general, it's the partnership with Death Row records and signing them to the deal that they did. So it's funny because I think that when a lot of people think of hip hop artists signing deals and getting ownership, we often hear about cash money.

We often hear about Master P and No Limit, but Death Row was able to do something quite similar and have that type of relationship with Interscope as well. It was a distribution deal, and for as notorious as Suge Knight is for his bully tactics, and that's probably a light way to put it in terms of how he goes about his business.

He was very adamant about what they owned and they were able to use a few hundred thousand dollars investment on their end. Largely gotten from some money that, Suge Knight didn't get that he was owed from a vanilla ice steal and that that becomes a start to death row records. And they sat on the chronic for over a year until they found the right company. And the right company ended up being Interscope to partner with.

[00:13:14] YT Clip 2: All I remember is that Dre came in, then plays the chronic. I said, who recorded this for you? He said, me. I said, wow. This guy will define Interscope. 

[00:13:24] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. and you know, I think that, you know, there's the old story of like, when Jimmy first heard Dre and Snoop together on a track, he's like, these guys are like Mick and Keith just, you know, they're just, just different genre but saw it immediately, right? He saw the, like behind the scenes musical guy, you know?

and then the sort of like the forward facing storyteller, the performer. And, he saw formula that worked in rock and that would work in hip hop. And, I think in many ways, You know, Jimmy's genre agnostic, right? It didn't really matter that this was hip hop or that was rock.

The point was the formula works and it works in whatever genre you put it forward in. So, at one of my other favorite Jimmy Stories was, I don't remember which song this was, what was it? It was, maybe it was off the chronic or doggy style and that he couldn't get the, radio stations to play it, because it was too obscene or whatever.

And so, he just bought like 32nd or 62nd slots, or maybe he bought like, full three minute slots on drive time in LA just terrestrial radio and just played the song and people didn't realize that it was an ad, and they just, they loved the song and they started calling the radio stations requesting it, and that's how they rocketed it to the top.

Which, do you remember what song it was? it's, not such, of course, the listeners are gonna be like, oh 

[00:14:41] Dan Runcie: someone's gonna come back and ping us about it. 

[00:14:44] Zack Greenburg: But I just, I love that story and it's, just like classic Jimmy Iovine, you know, you know, and it works. and I think also, you know, to your earlier point, like monetizing the pearl clutching, the best way to, get somebody to want something is to tell 'em they can't have it, right?

I mean, so whoever's mom is like clutching their pearls, but the kid is like, wait a minute, my mom is freaking out and I can't have this record, like, what is this record that I can't have? Even if they didn't know what it was, you know? and I think in a funny way, like that era, you know, the whole parental advisory sticker, I mean, that became like, you know, like almost a badge of honor, 

[00:15:18] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah, I was a marketing employee at that point. 

[00:15:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, exactly. and you see that, know, obviously throughout music, but even, to draw parallels, with basketball, which as we get into talk about, beats by Dre, you know, I think there are a ton of them. But like one of the reasons that, Eric Jordan did so well early on was because they were like finding Jordan for wearing them.

And this was a big story, you know, he was kind of like breaking the rules by wearing, cuz it, you know, the sneakers they had to be like white in the nba, white sneakers. We could only have a certain percentage with color on them. And like the Jordans were 50% red or something. And, this was like a big problem and, you know, resulting in fines.

But Nike decided to just pay the fines and take the publicity. And I think that sort of attitude is, the one that was, you know, adopted by Jimmy and, you know, by Interscope more broadly throughout. 

[00:16:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah, great story. And I think that speaks a lot to both the blessing and to be honest, in some ways the curse of, Jimmy, what Jimmy's great at, and some of Jimmy's challenges as well, because from a leadership perspective and from the risk taken perspective, he was always willing to go there and spend the money to make the things happen, right?

Whether it was taking a less lucrative deal to work with Death Row because you're working with Death Row, what you're able to put out, right? Three other first four albums they put out are classics, you have the chronic, you have Doggy Style, you have the above the Rim soundtrack. They just came so strong.

And even that moment when they're able to have that cover on vibe, that is just such an infamous cover of, you know, the three main artists and show together. No one else could really do that, and that's why that does stay as strong as it is. But with that, Jimmy also did get a lot of criticism for overspending and not necessarily having as many checks of balances in place.

A lot of people felt that, you know Doug Morris, who, this was a little bit later, but Doug Morris, who was leading Universal at the time, pretty much gave him a green light to do a lot of the things he wanted to do. And I remember in the nineties he had side Tom Jones, which was in many ways a bit antithetical to like how he's been running the business so far to spend the money on an act like that.

And then even some of the things later on with Apple Music, and I mean, that's a whole nother conversation, but it's the way that the money was spent, worked well when it worked well. But then things don't work out, everyone has, you know, the criticism ready and some, some businesses that can work well, but in other businesses it can be a little bit challenging.

[00:17:47] Zack Greenburg: Right. Yeah. absolutely. And, you know, I think as with many businesses though, if you spend a lot of money and you spend it, you know, intelligently or at least you know, in the right direction, maybe you overspend a little bit. If you spend in the right direction, you know, the rewards accrue to you.

And, you know, I don't know if I'm getting too ahead of myself here, but. Just while we're on the topic of controversy, you know, just the whole corporate history of Interscope, it had started off as a, or it eventually was a joint venture between, Time Warner and then Field and Iovine.

And in 1995, after all this controversy, with some of the lyrics and, you know, Dolores Tucker, you know, and all this T ime Warner divested, sold it's half of the company to field an Ivy for 150 million bucks. And then year later they just turned around and sold that half for 200 million back to Seagram.

And, you know, so they made a tidy little $75, 85 million in like a year, you know, after, having their hand force by this controversy. So, it's just kind of funny how that all works out. 

[00:18:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought that up. But I think we could get into some of the categories now cuz some of this probably fits there with that too. At least, I'd say the biggest signing here, I think the biggest signing, there's a number of them in Interscopes, 30 plus year history, but I think it has to be this Death Row deal.

[00:19:02] Zack Greenburg: I think the death row deal, because it kind of paves the way for everybody else. But, I would say though, if there were a single artist that, you know, sort of, if you had to pick one artist to define Interscope, I'd probably go with Eminem. I mean, just in terms of like the overall, the controversy, the evolution, the sales.

I mean, you know, just, nobody can touch Eminem from a sales perspective. you know, certainly when it comes to hip hop, over the past, you know, couple decades and, you know, just, all of the, kind of, the good and the bad and everything that came together. I mean, you know, but that doesn't happen unless you have Death Row.

It doesn't happen unless you have Dr. Dre. I mean, you know, if you say like, what artist was most critical to Interscope overall, like on a broader kind of like holistic spectrum, I'd probably go with Dre. but as far as assigning, I don't know. It'd be hard to top that in my book. 

[00:19:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think Eminem is a good counter there because this is kind of like the cash money conversation we had then, right? Do you say that it's Lil Wayne or do you say it's Drake and it actually is Drake from a pure numbers perspective, but obviously Drake doesn't happen without Lil Wayne and the same thing as here with Dre and Eminem and then everything else there.

And Eminem is specifically because I think even if you looked at the 2010s, he's still probably up there in terms of the most commercially successful artist. He's already number one of the two thousands. He was already pretty high up from the nineties just given the work that he did in the late two thousands and his. In 2022, his greatest Hits album was the most popular rap album in the UK. And this is a album that's 17 years old, a greatest hits album. And then you just look at the streaming numbers. I'm pretty sure he has two of the three most streamed songs of the two thousands being Lose Yourself and Till I Collapse, which wasn't even like a big single at the time, but ended up being a staple on workout playlist.

So yeah, 

[00:20:57] Zack Greenburg: and he has remained relevant in a way. I mean, I think if you walk down the street and you ask the average, you know, 15 year old, they'll know who Eminem is and they might not know who Dr. Dre is. 

[00:21:08] Dan Runcie: Which is wild to say, right? 

[00:21:10] Zack Greenburg: I know, 

[00:21:11] Dan Runcie: Wild. Yeah, 

[00:21:12] Zack Greenburg: It's crazy, but I think but I think it 's also true, for better or worse, so, 

[00:21:17] Dan Runcie: What's the best business move in, Interscopes done?

[00:21:20] Zack Greenburg: I think it might be cheating a little bit because it was part Interscope and it was also part Universal more broadly. but I would go with beats, right? Just, you know, by way of background for those who don't know the full story, you know, uh, Jimmy Iovine and Dr. Dre founded Beats in, gosh, what was it, 2008? Something like that. 

[00:21:36] Dan Runcie: Yep, 08' 

[00:21:37] Zack Greenburg: But like from the very beginning, you know, the story goes that they're like walking down the beach in Malibu and, Dre has some kind of sneaker deal on the table and he says, you know, Jimmy, should I take this sneaker deal?

And Jimmy goes, you know, like, F sneakers, let's sell speakers. And so that's how Beats was born. Is that exactly how it went down, you know, we'll never know, but it's a great story. and You know, to kind of tie it back to what we were talking about earlier with Air Jordan, they really did follow the Air Jordan Playbook in a lot of ways.

And, when I wrote my book Three Kings, which was about Dre, Diddy and Jay-Z, the Dre section really focused a lot about, you know, beats and sort of how Dre set up this business and everything with Jimmy. And, you know, I actually went to the former CEO of Best Buy and I said, how did you sort of like, get kids to pay 200 bucks for a pair of headphones when like, they had been paying 200 bucks for sneakers before?

And he said, well, we very consciously told our salespeople, when somebody walks in, you've gotta tell them like, you know, you're competing with Jordan not Bose, you know, you're gonna tell that kid like you know, this headphones set is like, more interesting for your wardrobe than that pair of sneakers or, you know, like that's how you're gonna really kind of win and create a category, not just sort of become the, best player in an old category. And, I think that was like the brilliant thing that they did. But the way that they got it to happen was they got full buy-in from Interscope and from the parent company, universal.

And actually Universal invested a pretty big chunk of money into Beats. so that, you know, I think gosh, I don't remember exactly what it was, but I think when Apple finally bought them out, in 2014, I think Jimmy and Dre had 25 to 30% each. I think Universal had something like 20%. LeBron had a little bit and, will I am, but, you know, the fact that Universal was bought in, the Interscope was bought in, and that Jimmy was able to get them to put, beats headphones in like every single, I don't remember if it was Interscope video or all universal videos. I think it might've just been Interscope. 

[00:23:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, they had 'em in Ineterscope cuz like they had 'em in like Gaga videos and like she would wear them and stuff. 

[00:23:39] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And it's like, it's brilliant. Like what a brilliant move. So, you know, off of the two, that, whatever they put into it, intermediate, a lot of that was free, right? They just put in, you know, their own free product placement. They have to do anything and they help build this, you know, build beats into this $3 billion company.

and so, you know, I, I don't know how the pie sort of divided, but it ended up being, you know, worth hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, to the sort of universal Interscope family. And then, you know, also, you know, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars for Jimmy and Dre.

So, there are a lot of great signings. I'm sure they made a ton of money off of Eminem and all these other artists, but like, it's really hard to top that one. And, they just really knew how to do it. They really knew how to, I mean, Jimmy, you know, yeah. Again, it's a perfect partnership.

Dre is this perfectionist artist and Jimmy is the market critter. And I remember, man, it must have been like 2010 or 2011, I got invited to this like launch of some new Beats thing, for New York media only. And, you know, there were like 30 people there and it was Jimmy and Dre and they were kind of like standing around in this, big conference room.

And, you know, Jimmy was just like talking and yacking it up and telling stories and he told the story about the walking down the beach and, you know, sneakers or speakers and Dre's just kind of nodding and, you know, chiming in occasionally, but like, that was their deal. you know, Jimmy, Jimmy was the talker and Andre was the, you know, the, the quiet genius artist.

and that was a pretty potent formula. 

[00:25:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that was my answer too. Beats has to be the best deal. All the reasons you mentioned as well. They also saw a huge opportunity with speakers as well because at this point, the predominant way that so many people were listening to music were those cheap white iPhone headphones or the iPod headphones, I should say, at the time that people were listening to.

And I remember Jimmy was adamant about how poor the sound quality was coming out of them, especially given how much focus there was in the nineties around surround sound and both speakers and all this stuff. And sound shifted to these very cheap plastic headphones that just came for free in the iPod, cases.

So them putting a bit more money into the technology there. Granted, there were other companies that did come through and really expand further, and that's how we're able to have products like the AirPod Pro Maxes, which are now several hundred dollars more than beets ever were because beets was considered to be expensive at that point.

And now people will buy those like it's nothing the same way that people will buy Yeezys. Like it's nothing. So that other point about category creation, not just building within an existing area was key there.

[00:26:20] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And I think it's also worth noting, you know, Jimmy clearly looked up to Steve Jobs a lot and, you know, took cues from Steve Jobs creating the iPod, right? I mean, that was a very, like, he created the iPod. It was a music thing that helped basically revive apple and, and get it on the track that it is today.

And you know, there, I don't think there's an iPhone if there's no iPod, but, you know, how did they get the iPod to be so sexy? It was like, It was those YouTube U2 commercials with the like, hello, hello to place golf to go, you know, and everybody was dancing and, and the crappy white, you know, earbuds with the, you know, chords and everything.

you know, that was like, that was a creation of a category. And you know, I think that Jimmy looked at that and he thought, gosh, you know, I could do something like that. And I think he always thought it would be a great fit for Apple but Steve Jobs, you know, while he was alive, I think he kind of thought he could do it all himself, and he didn't really want to be involved in, you know, in that side of the business.

So I think it's why, it wasn't until after Steve was gone that, you know, Apple came in and, and bought beats. But yeah, I remember reporting on that deal when it happened and happened at the worst. I was like, I had just gotten on a flight to like go to Italy for vacation with my wife.

and I woke up at 7:00 AM and we landed or whatever, and I had like 70 texts and it, you know, it was like be, while I was over the Atlantic Ocean Beats, had gotten sold to Apple. And that, video came out with Dre saying how he was, you know, the new king of the Forbes list.

And, 

[00:27:54] YT Clip 1: The Forbes list just changed. They need, Hey, it came out like two weeks ago. They need to update the Forbes list, shit just changed in a big what? Oh my understand that. Oh my. The first billionaire in hip hop.

Right here from the motherfucking West Coast. Believe it. Oh. 

[00:28:11] Zack Greenburg: and so I just said to my wife, I was like, honey, we're gonna have to hang out in this airport for a little while before we started our vacation. I was like, you know, trying to put together a story and figure out what happened. but I think that one of the things that people talked about, you know, and at the time everybody's like, that's a crazy amount of money, you know how, you know how like Apple never spends money like this, you know, what's the deal? But a lot of the scuttlebutt was that they kind of like viewed Jimmy and Dre as, you know, maybe not like a replacement Steve Jobs, but almost like a piece of the Steve Jobs Voltron that they were gonna try to recreate, you know, like Tim Cook would, you know, the, would be the brain and the like, Dre and Jimmy would be the heart and somebody else would be the, I don't know, like something like that.

They would piece it back together and get these little aspects of Steve and that they thought that Jimmy and Dre could really help out on the marketing side of it. and, you know, I don't know, I know that they had kind of like, there was a period of a few years where they were getting paid to hang around and, do stuff.

And, you know, they did some, I think they did some more commercials, promotion, that kind of thing. But I never got the sense that they really were like, all right, you know, apple for life. And I think they kind of just, the thing ran its course, and, you know, they, took the last bit of their cash and off they went to do the next thing but it was interesting at least. that a lot of people really thought that that was kind of like part of the reason why, the deal was for such a big number, you know, that it was almost like an acquihire type of situation. 

[00:29:36] Dan Runcie: Right, and the other big piece of it was the streaming service that they had created at the time. And Apple wanted to get into streaming. They didn't have a streaming service. They were starting to develop one. So Beats music eventually became Apple Music, and then that's how Jimmy became so integral with 

[00:29:52] Zack Greenburg: And, I think even by that point, beats already had some really interesting people, I think like t Trenton Resner and so forth who were like deeply involved with it. And I think, you know, part of that was appealing to Apple too. that they felt that, you know, not just that the product existed, but that it, you know, that, the people existed who could kind of like grow it within Apple and, you know, eventually turn it into, into, iTunes like, you know, Apple Music and so forth.

[00:30:17] Dan Runcie: Right, which speaks to that partnership in Jimmy's connections, right? He had been working with trend since the nine Inch Nails days. So yeah, all comes full circle. what do you think is the dark horse move or the dark horse thing that Interscope has that doesn't get talked about as much? So mine for this, I actually think it's the longevity that they've had with leadership there because I think that other record labels, this gets talked about a fair amount, but, and it's true for auto scope, I feel like it just doesn't get talked about in that same way.

So since 1990, there's been two people that have been the head of it. So you had. Jimmy from what, 89 or 90, the founding until 2014, and then John Janick takes over and he's been there for almost a decade. And then if not more, if you just consider, you know, I think the total time working in the organization.

So that's like you think about other organizations too, whether. You look at a team like the Pittsburgh Steelers, there've been two head coaches there since the early nineties. You look at the Green Bay Packers, there's been two quarterbacks that they've had as starters since the early nineties, and those teams have been consistently competitive and you rarely see them getting the first round or the number one draft pick.

I think like Mike Tomlin hasn't had a losing season, and in some ways I kind of think about Interscope in that way. Yeah, sure. Every record label's had ups and downs, but these teams that have consistency, especially in an industry like music where there's so much turnover, so many of these other labels that are their competitors can be revolving doors in this way, which can lead to a lot of challenges for people to really be able to execute a strategy. This is one thing that I think has helped their longevity quite a bit.

[00:32:01] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I would say for my dark course, I would say John Janick, specifically, and I think people don't really realize, you know, just like how successful he's been cuz everybody talks about Jimmy. But, you know, first of all, at this point John's been there, I mean, he's been running the show for almost 10 years, which is nearly as long as Jimmy was.

And, you know, who knows how much of the time before, Jimmy left in 2014, John was actually really, you know, running things on a day-to-day basis. So, you know, the, just like so many times you see a, visionary founder like Jimmy, leave a company and then, you know, the thing just kind of like Peters out, but, you know, I mean, under John Janick, you know, look at, you know, like Billy Eilish for example. I mean, I think Kendrick Lamar was also under his watch, probably Machine Gun kelly must have been under his watch too. 

[00:32:51] Dan Runcie: Yep. And then even Olivia, Rodrigo more recently. 

[00:32:54] Zack Greenburg: I mean, what a huge, you know, like, so that's definitely like on the level of, you know, of the biggest acts that Jimmy was able to bring in.

And you know, it's like, you know, even with some of them it was really more Dre than it was Jimmy. So I think that's, you know, yeah, I think John deserves a lot of credit too. you know, and we haven't talked about Lady Gaga, so she's not exactly a dark horse. but, you know, lady Gaga is somebody who came in under Jimmy, but like, jimmy should not get credit for Lady Gaga because Lady gaga was kinda like languishing, you know 

[00:33:23] Dan Runcie: He was on the bench chilling and then like it was like the Akon's, the one that's like, Hey, what about her? 

What about 

[00:33:30] Zack Greenburg: And I remember I interviewed him, for Forbes. This was back in, you know, oh nine or 2010 or something like that. And, and I was like, so tell me the Lady Gaga story. And he said, basically I heard her stuff. And I was like, this is amazing. And I called her up, or I called, I think you called maybe Troy Carter, who was managing her at the time and said, you know, I wanna assign you, to my Interscope imprint.

And she's like, I'm already on Interscope. So, so they just kind of like moved her around, within Interscope and, you know, they were able to, you know, that first song Just Dance. a lot of people forget that was like, when that came out. Akon was much bigger than Lady Gaga and, you know, that was at the height of Akon's fame.

He's not out there as much now, but he is out, you know, he's all over the world making probably even more money than he was, back then. But, you know, yeah. He was hosting or appearing on SNL with Lonely Island and all those guys and, you know, he's kind of like showing up in the back of just dance, you know?

Oh, yeah, you know, doing his Akon thing and, you know, and kind of really helped get her off the ground you know, and then just kind of like, pieced out and Lady Gaga became this incrediblesuperstar. So, you know, I think that's, certainly some serendipity for Interscope there, but, yeah, I wouldn't give Jimmy full credit for that one. 

[00:34:45] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely not Interscope, collectively. Sure they had her on the roster, but yeah, that one has to go to Akon on that one by extension, who himself, you know, clearly worked with Interscope and then just given, cuz we didn't even mention him himself, just that whole run he had from like oh four to what, 08', maybe 2010 if you wanna go a little bit longer. He was everywhere. 

[00:35:05] Zack Greenburg: yeah, yeah. 

[00:35:06] Dan Runcie: So of course we talked a lot about consistency. We talked a lot about Janet and the role that he's been able to do there, and I think consistency does naturally lead itself going further. So let's flash forward 10 years, let's go to 2030, 2033. Do we still think that Interscope will be at the level that it is now, where if you look at the market share numbers, it's roughly alternating, right? Around 10% of recorded music may be a little bit less, but I feel like it's like them Republic and then Columbia alternating to some extent. And it all kind of depends on who releases when but do you think that changes? Do you think they're more likely to stay there? Or what do you think 10 years from now 

[00:35:46] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think they're gonna stay, I mean, it's not like, one of these situations where their top artists are leaving or, you know, you're really too concerned about it, or they're kind of in the wrong genre mix. I mean, they're really heavy in hip hop. you know, they have some of the biggest stars out right now.

I mean, we already talked about Olivia Rodrigo, Kendrick. Billy Eilish obviously is enormous Machine Gun Kelly, but you know, they have Black Pink. That's huge. Like, that could be a big place for growth 

[00:36:11] Dan Runcie: You got SZA through the TDE deal, right? 

[00:36:13] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. yeah. I mean, that's a great point, you know, hard to find anybody, who's having like a bigger moment that says it right now, so, You know, there's a lot.

let's say that to go back to the sports analogy, it's not like this is a team of like, you know, 38 year olds who are nearing the end, you know, this is, like a win now team, with plenty of talent in the pipeline. and they've proven that they can keep working the farm system or something to continue the sports metaphor.

But, and you know, I mean, John himself is not an old guy. I mean, John is, 

[00:36:40] Dan Runcie: Mid Forties? 

[00:36:41] Zack Greenburg: You know, I I forget old he is. Exactly. Yeah, you're talking, you know, where are they gonna be in 2030? I mean, you know, he'll be like in his early fifties and, still I think doing what he's doing, and doing it really well.

So, you know. Absolutely. Yeah, I don't really see them fading. And if anything, you know, all it takes is like, You know, like another Monster Billy Eilish album in a given year. you know, and they start to gain even a little more market share. So I think they're in a pretty darn good place. 

[00:37:09] Dan Runcie: And it's arguably one of the best jobs in the recorded music industry because of the amount of leeway that I think Janet and by extension, the Interscope Geffen a and m umbrella is given relative to a lot of the other labels that are either under Universal or even others under the majors in terms of the decision making, the things that you could do, and when you have that much control based on his relationship with Lucian compared to others, it does make a huge difference. 

[00:37:37] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. And you know, I think another, another guy who's kind of in the background, who's been in the background, you know, for a really long time there is Steve Berman. He's another executive, who doesn't get you know, like a ton of limelight, but, you know, is kind of like quietly, like, like the cons.

He's been kind of the cons area type over the years. and, you know, I think that might be part of the, you know, continuation, the connective tissue between Iovine, and, john Jank as well.

[00:38:02] Dan Runcie: Right. Good point, especially just given how important lawyers and they are in terms of the influence direction of this industry. Another thing that I think is interesting, just thinking about the future, is also looking at the past of Interscope and how this record label did start and rise because of this controversy, because of the pro clutching business model.

Do you think that could work today? Because I have my skepticism, but what are your thoughts?

[00:38:31] Zack Greenburg: I think it depends, you know, what sort of pearl clutching is about, right? I think, know, in, in many ways the world is a nicer place than it was in the nineties. Like, you know, things were kind of a little rough and tumble in the nineties and it wasn't as sensitive a time as it is now.

you know, I think, I think in general it's, good that, you know, we're like a little nicer, a little more sensitive, but, you know, in other ways, you know, I think, sometimes perhaps too much. But, you know, I think that, you know, certainly when it comes to music, I don't know, in a like this moment, for whatever reason, music isn't at the.

Forefront of the culture wars and the way that it was in the nineties. And you know, instead it's like books in Florida, right? I mean, who knew? But, you know, people aren't really like, kind of, this is not a, like a campaign issue in the same way, that it might have been in the 90s, you're not seeing as many politicians sounding off about it.

I mean, I think certainly you're hearing stuff, about, you know, can lyrics be used as evidence in court? you know, which is, can be a really troubling topic. But, you know, I think the sort of focus of that argument is, it's not like in the middle of national campaigns in the way that this was in the 1990s.

So, yeah, I think, you know, like Interscope certainly as an experience. walking the line and it's maybe a little bit less of a delicate line, that they need to walk these days for just whatever reasons, with the political headwinds. 

[00:40:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I don't think it would work in the same way because I think the people that do try to create shock value were so desensitized to things compared to when we were the way things were in the nineties. Even for people that weren't that threat to society, but because of how they were depicted, it was easier to do that and still release great music, right?

The chronic could be a shock value type of work, but it's still something that is critically acclaimed. That is in the National Registry and Library of Congress and all of these other areas. But now the stuff that creates shock value in music, whether it's even someone that's like more on the personality side, like a dj academics or someone like that will literally just say like, you know, the wildest shit just to go viral or partner with right wing organizations in order to create momentum that still has this area where it lives in somewhere like YouTube, where yes, you can get a following and you can make a living and you know, do things for yourself.

But I think there's somewhat of a ceiling to that in terms of how much you can like, create, you know, broader impact and truly monetize the bases and the masses. And some of it even extends to artists as well, like those, I think someone like NBA Young Boy is quite popular and has had a bit of a number of transgressions in his track record, but still I think there's a pretty big gap of, you know, him relative to like some of the other names you mentioned just from some of the exposure and opportunities that he's given that doesn't lend itself to that.

So, you know, Interscope in the early nineties probably wouldn't have wanted to try to sign Olivia Rodrigo because it didn't make sense. But it makes perfect sense now just given where things are and where things are going. So you can maybe do it on a niche level, but I think it's hard to have shock value sell in mass quantities and for the mainstream in that same way. 

[00:41:55] Zack Greenburg: Well, I think it's also just harder to shock people now, right? I mean, you know. 

[00:41:58] Dan Runcie: Or desensitized 

[00:42:00] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you were to put out the chronic today, you know, with, the marijuana leaf on the cover of it, it's like, and you know, and like this has been legal in California for like how long, you know?

And certainly in terms of like things you could say or do that would be truly shocking. It's like after Donald Trump has been president in the things, you know, that are kind of, came out of that, it's like, you know, I don't really know many things an artists could do that would be more shocking, you know, and in this sort of like, hilarious, I dunno if it's hilarious, but this, let's say, ironic juxtaposition, you know, you had Eminem, the king of shock value Like making a track against Donald Trump when he was in office, you know, you have the rappers protesting against the politicians, instead of the other way around.

So I think we're still, as a society, been kind of turned on our head, you know, by some of the developments of the past. you know, let's say eight years, eight years plus the past decade or so. you know, it's, guess in some ways hard for politicians to be complaining so much about music when, a lot of the obscenity is coming from them. So, 

[00:43:05] Dan Runcie: Right, and I think too, you were mentioning about how what Congress or what the American government can rally against in how so much of the nineties was. I still remember that infamous cover of Snoop Dogg on the cover of Newsweek, and I forget what the title of the magazine was, but it was something, along the lines of, oh, this is the greatest threat to America, or this is the greatest threat to our country, or something like that someone could probably pick me and find it, or maybe you'll link to in the show notes. And that's what people were able to get riled up around, right? Now, the biggest thing in music that has gotten anyone on a congressional level or congress level riled up is ticketmaster and Live Nation and Taylor Swift's tickets, which just shows how different things are, people used to be riled up about the content. Now this is a way to try to get at big business or whatever the exact complaint is. So, such a different time. 

[00:43:58] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, No, I Couldn't agree more.

[00:44:01] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So we definitely spoke a lot of praise about the current era of where things are with the Interscope and the work that Janet has done the past decade. If you were in his shoes, would you be doing anything differently? And I do think that he's done a few things. So you mentioned black pink earlier.

So there's clearly a way to be able to pivot and move more into music that isn't from the United States. It isn't domestic, and you're able to rise there, clearly done different types of deals from a flexibility perspective. Some artists do have, licensing deals like Olivia Rodrigo will own her masters for the long term just based on what she's shared about the nature of her contract moving forward.

But for him himself, I mean, I think there's other IP things that could be interesting, but what does the type of things that Jimmy was able to do back in the late 2010 or late two thousands with beats? Like what could that look like or what could that look like for Interscope 

[00:44:59] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. You know, I think it's a different time. One of the things that's changed so much is over the past few years, I would say it's like, it's not quite as cool to be rich anymore, you know? I think sort of the Bernie Sanders movement, the sort of like this, right? I remember seeing it at Forbes, you know, when I started out it was like, woo, like I wanna be a billionaire and 

[00:45:20] Dan Runcie: The Forbes Remix 

[00:45:22] Zack Greenburg: Right. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you had, Jay-Z, Diddy, and 50 being like, you know, the Forbes, yeah, they put out this Forbes 1, 2, 3 billionaire remix they called it. But you know, even now, even within the past couple years, you know, certainly, I think the Pandemic really crystallized this.

But even before that, you know, with sort of like Bernie and, that whole, you know, movement, There was this kind of questioning of like, should there even be billionaires? And you know, I remember starting to see, people who you had thought, you would've thought would be, you know, jumping to be on the cover of Forbes.

Just say like, eh, you know, like, I don't want to be seen as crowing about my wealth. so, you know, I think that's a big cultural change. And that's post beats, right? That's post, you know, Dr. Dre's situation. And, you know, I think that there's certainly a lot of leeway for Interscope still, to be entrepreneurial and they've always done that. But I think the challenge for Interscope or for anyone really is like, how can you be entrepreneurial in a way that is sort of like, you know, not necessarily charitable per se, but has some kind of impact, you know, like some kind of impact investing sort of thing. how can you, like, make money but, you know, drive change at the same time?

I think that's sort of like, as we look going forward into the, you know, celebrity earning, you know, celebrity business sphere, I think that's gonna be the big question because it's no longer the thing that's just, it's cool to make a bunch of money on some random app or, you know, selling, some crypto thing as we've seen.

And you know, you can get a lot of blowback, people think you're selling out. People think you're greedy people don't think you're selling outta greedy just cause you're doing something business related. But, you know, I think, over the past couple years it's become a lot more like, well, you know, is this something that really helps the world are using your money for good?

and so I think whatever it is, if it's gonna be public facing and, you know, and I think. That's the value when you have a stable of celebrities, right, is to do something public facing. It's like, what is this doing, to help the world. So, you know, I think there are a lot of ways to take that, but certainly, you know, I think that's a bigger, bigger and bigger component going forward. 

[00:47:22] Dan Runcie: This is something that has changed in a relatively quick time span. You even think back to the Obama era and just the Obama presidency and just how music was and how people interacted and thought about music. You look at a album like Watch the Throne In, which I do think was one of the more popular albums from that decade.

Granted, I don't think JayZ or Ye are even on the terms or desire to put something like, like that out again. But if they put that out about now, it would not get the same reception. There would be all these think pieces about, oh, here are these two men talking about, you know, their, you know, Hugo watches and there other, other bends and all this stuff.

And people would be complaining about that in a way where just as recent as 2011, they were celebrated, like people, like revered so many of the songs. And just the talk about black excellence and wealth and even some of the conversations around Jay-Z himself as a figure, I know you know this well as probably some of the responses you've gotten over the years when you've talked about Empire State of mind and how people react to him, statements he's said and stuff like that.

And yeah, we're just in a very different spot and now we're kind of in this space where, Yes, people can have commercial success. People, businesses can do it too. But I think it's especially difficult for companies in music because of so much historical context of how people view the record label as the enemy.

People view the record label as this, and then even when the topic of the prices potentially raising for some of these streaming services, the number one thing you often hear from fans is, well, I hope that extra dollar or $2 for a potential raise in the streaming service goes back to the artist. And it's like, yes, you, you do eventually want those things, but we're losing the opportunity to talk about the value that these record labels create because of how media disseminates, right?

If you talk about, oh, Olivia Rodrigo has a very favorable record deal. No one wants to hear that. But if there's ever a report, oh, Olivia Rodrigo's upset about, you know, Interscope, that thing would be a news topic for five days. Cuz that's where we are right now.

[00:49:27] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And you know, so to to your point, I mean, you mentioned my book, empire State of Mind, which was this business focused biography I wrote of Jay-Z. it came out in 2011. but you know, It was such a different world back then. And when it came out, you know, their response was basically like, whoa, awesome. Like, this is Jay-Z's blueprint for how to, you know, be a centi millionaire. And this is so cool because now I can apply this to my career, or I can, you know, learn some lessons from him. And, you know, and there was just definitely like a sentiment of people rooting for Jay-Z to become a billionaire, race to a billion, and who's gonna get there first?

Is it Jay-Z or Diddy or, you know, whoever. And, you know, and then it happened and Jay-Z you know, crossed the threshold in, I think it was 20, early 2020, something like that. I think late 2019, early 2020 was when we put him in the magazine as a billionaire for Forbes. but even when that, like, by the time that happened, you know, about 10 years later, I put out the billionaire edition of the book. after, you know, let's say, what was it, in 2021, this was 10 years later. It was a totally different story, right? people were like, why is this guy, you know, like, who cares? Like, you know, like he should be giving it all of it back, you know? Why are there billionaires in our society? Something's wrong in society that has billionaires. So, you know, and I think it has gone, that narrative has gone even faster than Jay-Z has kind of evolved into this, like very socially aware, you know, type of philanthropic mogul, you know, people are not even that into the idea of like, oh, I'll make a lot of money so I can give it back, people are like, just, you know, do the good, like do philanthropic stuff, do impact stuff the whole way through and like, don't even try to become a billionaire. So, it really is such a different world, and it's, been fascinating to write about this stuff as these attitudes have changed on a broader societal level for sure. 

[00:51:25] Dan Runcie: Did you hesitate naming it the Billionaire Edition, knowing like this would change and seeing things over the years?

[00:51:32] Zack Greenburg: Well, I had it in mind that it would be a cool thing to do whenever he did become a billionaire, because it was like, it was almost like the realization of a prophecy. It's like, you know, in, in 2011, I sort of like, I'm telling you he's gonna be billionaire and he's telling you, you know, and it's like, okay, here it is.

He's a billionaire, you know, and I actually wanted to get like a, gilded cover and do the kind of watch the throne type of thing and you know, like embossed gold and all that stuff. But, it's not the right era. I mean, like, you're saying, it's just not, it's that era anymore.

So yeah, I did wonder, like, should I kind of like back off of that narrative. But, you know, to go back to the Jimmy Iovine Interscope conversation, it's like, whether it's good or bad, it starts a conversation and you want the conversation to start, so that people will read the book, you know? And it's not like, a bad thing for me if people think it's bad that Jay-Z's a billionaire, it's just a fact. And even since I put out the Billionaire edition, he's like, more than doubled his net worth, you know, again. So that's just, that's just how he operates. And, you know, that's Jay-Z. 

[00:52:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, you had to put out something. So much had changed since when you first put that book out. And this is how, in many ways the. Business model of books works when there is something to be able to add, that's a refresher new forward based on this one. you had to do it. So, yeah. I think it made sense.

But to bring this all full circle with Interscope in this conversation, the last thing we'll dive into is who is the biggest winner, artist, executive producer, so on from everything that has happened with Interscope in the past 33 years. 

[00:53:09] Zack Greenburg: Hmm. it's a great question. I mean, to me it's between Jimmy and Dre. but I would probably go with Jimmy because, you know, Dre was gonna be centimillionaire, you know, music legend no matter what. And although Jimmy had done a lot of great work, you know, in the rock world before then, and I'm sure, you know, was, very adequately compensated.

You know, he wasn't sort of like a, an international business superstar in the way that he became as a result of, Interscope. And, you know, Jimmy and Dre both got a lot of money out of it. but I think Jimmy really got a lot more than he would've otherwise. in his, prior iteration of his career and Dre, you know, I mean, Dre has founded a bunch of things, right? And Interscope, you know, obviously he wasn't the founder of Interscope, but, you know, I kind of tied B to Interscope and that whole thing together. So it, Dre had lots of different paths to wealth. and so did Jimmy, but I think Dre had more, and, Jimmy kind of like ultimately got more out of it. 

[00:54:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think between the two of them, even if Interscope had said no back in 92 or 91, whenever the initial deal was made, I do think that Dre would've likely found a home. Dre and Suge would've found a home. It's still been able to do something similar elsewhere. Maybe it would've made the Tupac thing a little bit more challenging, but I think they still would've figured that out too. 

[00:54:30] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. 

[00:54:31] Dan Runcie: I don't think the same would necessarily be true for Jimmy though, because if you don't have them, you don't have this. And a lot of this, I'm sure a lot of people listening to this unlikely watch the Defiant ones or maybe you've seen should do a few interviews. I don't know if a lot of that would work.

 But I think I'll actually take a different approach. I think the person that probably won the most, just from a situation perspective, I know we've talked about him a fair amount, but I'll say Janet with this one because he didn't build this company himself. But the fact that when it's your time to come up, you have this opportunity to be able to step into, you have this much leeway, this much assets that already work in your favor because we just know how valuable the bat catalogs are.

You walk into that position and then that has you then. Then that just makes it much more easy for you to have things set up because we know how a lot of this stuff is, right? People leave record labels all the time, especially if there's an opportunity to go to that next level. And this was before streaming really broke out.

So if it wasn't Interscope, it may have been one of the other opportunities that could have opened up. And for him to be able to take that and then continue things for the next decade and then prove that, to our point earlier, this isn't just a one trick pony. This was able to live beyond and in some ways, maybe even operated things a bit more efficiently than Jimmy did as well with some of the recklessness at points from spending too.

I do think that there's a case to be made for Janet, in terms of how that's been able to help that career too.

[00:56:00] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good pick too. Although, I think probably if you're going in terms of wealth creation, Jimmy, 

[00:56:06] Dan Runcie: Jimmy, for sure. Yeah, a hundred 

[00:56:08] Zack Greenburg: you gotta give it to Jimmy. But point, taken, for sure. 

[00:56:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Well, good stuff. This one was fun. I feel like after this we definitely went on a few different tangents on beats about even one on Apple music. We didn't explore too deeply. And even some of the other record labels here, there's a lot we could dig back into with this one. 

But yeah, Keith, and though controversy can sell, but not in the same way it did in the nineties. 

[00:56:33] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, that, that's absolutely, absolutely, 

[00:56:36] Dan Runcie: Well, Zach been a pleasure to us all, man.

[00:56:39] Zack Greenburg: Thanks, Dan. Have a good one.

[00:56:41] Dan Runcie: You too, man. 

 

]]> 3412 no Rerun: Investing $200 Million In Music with Matt Pincus https://www.trapital.com/podcast This week, I’m running back an interview with one of the most popular episodes we ever did with Matt Pincus from 2022.  Matt Pincus is without question one of the most successful entrepreneurs in the music industry. He sold his independent music publishing company, SONGS, for $160 million five years ago. And now, the music holdings company he co-founded, MUSIC, just raised $200 million to invest in music and music-adjacent companies.  Though, Matt doesn’t see MUSIC as an investment fund, but rather a holding company. That’s because he’s taking an operator role in the companies he funds. And unlike the splashy catalog acquisitions that’ve dominated the space over the past few years, Matt is looking forward with his investments and targeting brand-new growth opportunities instead. In particular, Matt sees big opportunities in the technology sector, web3, and even record labels and publishing. At SONGS, Matt was able to spot and develop up-and-coming songwriters, inking early deals with the likes of Diplo, Lorde, and The Weeknd. He’ll be tasked with finding similar success at MUSIC.   Matt and I dove deep into a wide-range of topics during our conversation. Here’s a few highlights of what we covered: [2:47] Why Matt created MUSIC [7:19] MUSIC’s investment thesis? [13:22] What Matt doesn’t like about the music business  [19:36] Recent inflow of capital into the music business [20:54] Two lanes to entering music business [24:08] Finding left-of-center opportunities among musical talent  [27:30] The structural problem of the music business [30:44] Continuity was key to SONGS success [35:59] The Weeknd as a business blueprint for other artists [36:53] Sync business opportunities  [43:46] Have streaming subscriptions peaked? [48:12] Tiktok brought back music frequency [51:13] Matt’s five-year predictions Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Matt Pincus, @mpinc Sponsors: MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital Newsly is your all-in-one audio super app to hear the trending topics on the entire web. Download newsly.me for free and use the promo code ‘TRAP’ to receive a 1-month free subscription. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Matt Pincus: Defensibility in the music business is not a patent or a technology or some special recipe you have someplace. It's your understanding of music, the people that make it, and then your ability to develop relationships with people around the business and to keep your reputation such that people want to be with you. But the real key in, at least in the music technology side of it is you need to be able to spin the technology yourself and understand really how it works.  [00:00:37] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:56] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is with one of the most successful music entrepreneurs of the past few decades. His name is Matt Pincus and he is the founder and CEO of MUSIC, which is a holding company that invests in music tech and music-adjacent companies. MUSIC just launched a 200 million fund to invest in this space, so Matt and I talked all about it. He's looking for companies that still have a clear understanding for how music gets made and understand the art behind it. He's also looking for startups that have a true defensible moat that is something unique that they can do. And he's also looking for the companies that have a huge total addressable market that can clearly grow and expand as we're seeing things continue to grow in this space. Our conversation covered a bunch of topics in this space. We talked about sync and the impact of that. We also talked about how much further streaming can go. And we talked about a bunch of insightful music trends. Really fascinating conversation. I feel like every few months we have one of those conversations where people reach out to me and say, Hey, I took a bunch of notes in that conversation. Thank you for this. And I have a good feeling, I have a good feeling that this is going to be one of those conversations. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Matt Pincus.  [00:02:16] Dan Runcie: All right. Today, we're joined by Matt Pincus, who is the founder of MUSIC, which is a holding company that invested music and music-adjacent companies. Matt, I'm really excited to have this conversation because you have had a very impressive career with what you did with Songs and everything that you had done in publishing specifically. And what always stuck out to me about you in this space is how you've identified opportunities where others didn't see them. So I know when I saw the announcement for MUSIC and the $200 million fund you launched, I said, okay, he's seeing something and he's seeing an opportunity to dive in. So what did you see? What made you want to get involved with this? [00:02:58] Matt Pincus: Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm a big admirer of Trapital and your work in general. And I'm really happy to be with you here today. So, you know, I started music, it was sort of an organic process. I sold Songs after running it for about 13 years. And it was a fairly abrupt end. So we decided to sell the company and neither me nor my two partners really wanted to run it for somebody else. So we decided that once we sold it, it was time to step away and it was fairly quick. So, you know, I ran the company for 12-plus years. And then 90 days after the sale, I was out in the street, like, what am I going to do with my life? So it was a bit of an organic process. It started with meeting a lot of really interesting founders of music businesses and companies that were around the music business. It's obviously an interesting time in our business in a number of different ways. The streaming market has matured. There are a lot of music tech businesses with interesting founders cropping up over the past four or five years. The web three crypto business has, you know, started the early days of really coming online. And the way that labels, publishing companies, management companies reach audiences is really different than it was like, you know, six, seven years ago. So I met a lot of really interesting people. The first one was Steve Martocci, who was the founder of Splice. He and I hit it off particularly well. And I sort of said, listen, I've been, you know, doing talent deals with young people, you know, in the early twenties for the past 12 years, I think maybe the next chapter is working with founders of companies that are more like 10 years younger than me, as opposed to, you know, 20, early 20s. And taking the experience that I had in the last, like, four or five years of songs when we were trying to figure out how to really realize returns on the business and build on that to try to help people do the same thing. So I was out looking for, you know, are there interesting companies that I might be able to work with in some way or another? And the answer to that quickly became kind of yes, on the music tech side originally, in growth companies, when online music and music technology was shifting to a subscription-based backbone as opposed to a packet software business. And then also on the music side of it, you know, interesting independent labels, music companies operating in a different way. And so the first thing was, are there interesting companies out there? The second is, do they need capital and where would they get it from? And the third was, how am I going to get the money to invest in these businesses? So it was kind of a bit of a bootstrapping exercise where I would go find an opportunity to invest in a company, put some of my own money in LionTree, which sold songs for me and has been a partner and champion of mine since I sold the company, would invest some money too, and then we'd find some other people to round out the investment. We did that first with Splice, put about 20 million into the company over a period of time. We also did in the same way, made an investment in a company called HIFI, which is a FinTech platform benefiting artists in a bunch of different ways, and also with DICE, the ticketing business. And you know, they started, a couple of them did well and actually, they all did well. And so I decided that I wanted to raise some capital and have my own sort of, it's not really a fund. It's more of a holding company 'cause I'm less of an investor and more of an operator. And so the question became, how are we going to raise the money? Now Aryeh Bourkoff who runs LionTree is somewhat of a magic maker, and he took me on and introduced me to two families, the Schusterman Family and JS Capital, which is Jonathan Soros's capital vehicle. And they agreed to invest in a four-way partnership. So it's between me, LionTree, Schusterman Family, and JS Capital. And we formed MUSIC, which is a $200 million holding company. We do deals in a couple of different areas, music tech, which is sort of where I spent most of my time after Songs. We also invest in independent music companies like Songs. So labels publishing companies, management companies. Increasingly, a few of those functions are in one company, as opposed to when I was running Songs, it was like you were either a publisher or a label or a management company. And then we partner sometimes with a larger private equity firm if we are interested in acquiring something that's, you know, of a larger size. And so we're in the middle of one of those right now. And so we were able to find a bunch of interesting opportunity, a bunch of interesting ways, and it seems to me to be, you know, a really good time to be putting money to work in the music business.  [00:07:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's an exciting time to be investing in these companies and to be acquiring them too. And you mentioned something there about the types of companies you're looking at and whether they are modern music companies or whether they are doing something that's unique in the space. Can you talk a little bit more about your investment thesis and what you're looking for, and specifically, because, as you mentioned, you're not a fund, you're a holding company, so you're not necessarily just doing, you know, angel investments or early stage. You're trying to make investments for the long haul. So how does that shape your strategy? [00:08:07] Matt Pincus: Very good question. And I think the answer to that depends somewhat on the different areas of investment. So the first is in the technology side of the business, which is kind of where I started as an investor. So, you look for a couple of things there. So first of all, you need to invest in companies, not products. So some of the music startups can be sort of, it's an interesting widget, but can it be a scalable business? So you need to make sure that you have a couple of things in order to know that you're investing in a company that has the ability to grow. So the first thing is you need your own tech stack and it needs to be built to suit whatever market you want to be in. So for example, with Splice, one of the reasons, and there were several, but one of the reasons I invested in the company was because Steve had built this subscription stack from day one of the company. So it was a native SaaS company in a world where the rest of the market needed to move from the old way of doing business to the new way of doing business. Splice was always in the new way of doing business, so it was going to be ahead of the curve. And so you need to make sure that your technical capabilities and your technical assets are going to, you know, be where you want to go. The second is that you need to make sure you're in a part of the market that has a big enough user base to make a real company out of it. You know, it's great to make a widget that, you know, 1500 people love, love, love, but 1500 people is not a lot of people. So you need to make sure that the addressable market around the business has a lot of users. And again, in Splice's case, you know, they are the content business in music tech. So they can be used in an infinite amount of applications across the business, which gives them, you know, a really solid user base. And so, you know, that's kind of the second thing. And the third thing is that you need to kind of own where you live or have the ability to own where you live. So, you know, it's great if you get into a category in the technology side of the business, that, you know, breaks some ground and shows everybody what can be done. But if then, you know, Apple or Google just says, thank you very much and does it instead of you, it's not so great. So you need to have a defensible business that you can build and scale. And again, back to Splice, you know, they are the content leader and I'm a music publisher by trade, so content is the water supply in the music business. You know, in publishing, it's the song that starts the whole conversation. Splice owns music. And so no matter where the market is going to grow, no matter where it ends up going, they have the supply that feeds the music tech business. And so it's inherently defensible when it gets up to a certain level. You know, at this point they have 3 million works in their database. To catch up to them is, you know, difficult, if not impossible. And so you need to be defensible now on the music side of what I do, which is investing in music companies, there's a couple of things I look for. So first of all, I don't do catalog acquisitions. I invest in people. So the first thing is that you need to have really talented executives that understand music and know how to find repertoire and make it bigger. I tend to like businesses that give advances to artists. There's a certain way, like at Songs, we built a catalog over a long period of time, but we built it through signing young writers and giving them advances. So I call it a mattress out of sheets. If you do that one after another, over many, many years and you do it well, all of a sudden you wake up, you know, 7 to 10, 12 years later, and you're like, holy shit, it's a big catalog. And so I tend to like businesses that advance money to artists and build catalog that way or manage catalog that way. There's a certain magic to understanding how to compensate artists and doing it fairly. So I tend to look at that. You know, the music business has changed a lot. It used to be that if you wanted to be an independent, you needed to own your own vertical. And you know, at Songs, we had our global administration business that we owned and built. We had our own technology. So we were self-contained, standalone competitor. Now I think, you know, solutions have become available everywhere. There's a lot of good publishing administration, a lot of good record distribution solutions. There's a lot of off-the-shelf stuff you can get. It's really about music. It's really about understanding artists and the music that they make and connecting them with an audience. So I look for people who uniquely understand that. Now that can be, you know, somebody who has a geographical lock on a particular kind of music. It can be somebody that has a particularly unique understanding of how the studio works because I think if there's one big change in the music publishing business lately, it's that it's gone really back to the studio. And the interesting companies are actually making songs in real-time in a studio environment. So it can be that. It can be that you have another business that you do and music is associated with it. So why not, you know, get into the music business while you're doing whatever else you do, but you need to have some reason why you have access to a particular group of artists in a particular kind of repertoire, and you're helpful to that in some way or another. And so it's quite a different set of things that I look for on that side than on the technology side.  [00:13:34] Dan Runcie: And with the way that your firm is structured, too, I see parallels with the types of companies you're looking at, right? You're not just focused on one particular type of investment area. You have the music tech companies that you're looking at. Splice is an example. You also have the companies that are working more directly in music itself, whether that is giving advances or companies that have a unique edge on who they're reaching. And I think that translates as well when you're talking about the types of companies you're looking at because a lot of times, especially 10, 15 years ago, as you mentioned, there were more silos and now you're starting to see companies have different types of roles that they do or different divisions to try to be this nebulous term that I've heard several times as broader entertainment company. And while I think that that's effective, I could also see how that could challenge some of the challenges of being able to have a business that is defensible or having a moat and the focus that comes with that. So how do you balance that and what are the things that you look for when evaluating companies that are both trying to do it all, but also are trying to have something that they can be defensible with?  [00:14:40] Matt Pincus: Well, so on the music side of it, you know, it's about relationships. You know, the good companies, their equity is their relationships with different people around the business. And it's really a human-centric business. So, you know, defensibility often is correlated with reputation in the independent music business, at least. That was certainly true of Songs. One of the big success factors of the company and in fact, like, kind of our asset was that me and Ron and Carianne had really good relationships around the business that we built over many years, and that allowed us to punch above our weight class. You know, when we were a very small business, you know, we acted as a bigger business because we were able to get champions that helped us along the way, both in terms of the artists that were willing to sign with us, but also in terms of, you know, other people around the business that took us on and helped us out. Oddly enough defensibility in the music business is not a patent or a technology or some special recipe you have someplace. It's your understanding of music, the people that make it, and then your ability to develop relationships with people around the business and to keep your reputation such that people want to be with you. You know, on the tech side of it, it's a little bit different. You have to make sure that your innovation curve is constantly there. You have to make sure, like, I would not invest in a business that did not have a technical co-founder. You know, ideas are great. Everybody's got ideas. You know, there's an app for anything. But the real key in, at least in the music technology side of it is you need to be able to spin the technology yourself and understand really how it works, which when you get into the crypto side of it's really interesting 'cause a lot of people understand the implications of it, but they have no idea how the shit works. They don't actually use it. And they get kind of confused thinking that it's much more complicated than in fact it really is. Or, you know, they get so fascinated with the technology that they don't make a product that stands on its own bottom and has value to the end user. So it's a little bit different in the different areas of the market that you look at. And one of the reasons why I like the field that I play on and I feel very lucky to be able to do the different things that I can do with music is because some of it is about sort of analytical, scalable technology-oriented investments. And some of it is just about people in tunes. And so you're kind of mixing a lot of different things together. You know, the one thing that I don't like so much about the recent music business is somehow we all slipped into talking about music as assets and fractional finance and cash flows and securitization. And I'm like, listen, if I wanted to do all that shit, I do it not here. You know, the music business is not assets and finance and cash flows and, you know, securitization. The music business is moving people, motivating people, creating an audience, assembling humans to want what you make, and distributing that and delivering it and all the rest of that stuff. You know, the fact like, listen, what I'm doing is either really smart or really dumb because either you can make a real investment business just out of the music business. And I think you can because there's lots of different types of investments in music and there's lots of growth and lots of possibility. But also, you know, it's a pretty small business. And I live in, play, you know, a neighborhood, the size of a postage stamp. We'll see if they can be done, but I think originally, you know, it starts with the creative and it starts with the means of delivering the creative to the people that want it. And then all of the rest of this stuff, you know, yield, debt payments, multiples on equity, bonds, all the rest of this stuff just is a happy accident that comes from doing your job well. [00:18:35] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you mentioned this because there's a version of what you do that could easily look more like a traditional private equity firm, where they are just going in and doing all of the things that you just mentioned and they're coming more from that perspective, but in many ways, your defense is having this laser focus on music, but you're going deep within all of the areas that it encompasses. And with that, I have to assume that this also maybe has a bit of a flavor on what your take is about the money that has come into the music industry and some of those other non-music companies or those that are purely looking at it for the financial opportunity or for the noncorrelated opportunities and how that in a lot of ways, even though on paper, someone that's fundraising may see the money they can get from you versus the money they get from others. But I'm hearing it from the record labels. And especially the independent ones they're getting reached out to all the time now about acquisitions. And a lot of those calls are coming from non-music related companies that are trying to make those moves. So it's been fascinating to see how that shapes, but I do feel like you are going about this in a much more unique way than a lot of them are. [00:19:49] Matt Pincus: Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. I will say that the recent, like, huge inflow of capital into the music business has one very good byproduct, which is it's giving a lot of money to songwriters and artists. Some of these catalogs getting valued at 20 times, 30 times, you know, NPS where they would've been valued at 10, you know, four or five years ago, maybe 10 years ago. It just results in people that make great music, making a bunch of bucks. And there's nothing at all wrong with that. On the catalog side of it, it makes a little bit more sense that some of these like larger capital vehicles are coming into the market and, you know, bidding things up and structuring the leverage in a certain way that makes sense. There's a big difference between what's going on now and what was going on when this first happened, like in 2006, 2007 timeframe because the people that are doing it now can afford it. They've got lots and lots of money. They don't need big returns on that money. They have the ability to structure this stuff financially in ways that don't make no sense. And so it makes, you know, more sense that people are doing that with the IP catalog acquisition business. When it gets to new music, you know, I think it's still a human business. I think you got to know the people, you know, and you have to understand how it's really about managing what I refer to as the working capital of the business. So, you know, you need to advance money, you need to collect that money, you need to reinvest the money. And so a lot of that, you know, it's not a big enough business that you can structure it like a bunch of bonds. You need to kind of understand the market that you're in, how many deals you could possibly get, and what about you ought to pay for them, and what kind of infrastructure you need to address all of that to do a good job. And that's hard to know from outside of the business. It's even hard to know, like there's sort of two lanes in the music business. There's people who came up through the building where they started at majors and they kind of built their career, you know, up from coordinator to director to senior director to VPs, SVP, EVP. And then they end up running the company, a lot of great people who came up that way. And then there's people who kind of feed in the wild. Like, come outside of the building and need to figure out, like, what's available. And there's some real differences, you know. Sometimes they cross over like Ron Perry who was an instrumental person at Songs from, you know, the very beginning to through time we sold and now runs Columbia. So sometimes that happens. Or Carianne who, you know, also was my partner at Songs who now runs Warner Chappell with Guy Moot. It's like there, you know, it happens, but there are really two lanes. And I think in the independent side, it's a lot about systematic A&R so about looking at, listen, none of us are overfunded with tons of money. So, you know, everybody's stretching the dough. And it becomes about how can I build this system in the world that I live that can do deals inexpensively, and then find the ones that are working and invest and push them forward. And all the great independent music companies, you know, Chrysalis, Jive Zomba, A&M Rondor, all the great ones throughout history sort of did that really effectively or were usually like the other ones. So everybody goes to the majors to get their offer. And then there's these other cooler guys that are there, like, you know, kind of fucking with the majors by picking off all the left to center stuff that was us at Songs. You know, and all those other companies I just mentioned were kind of some version of that. But there's kind of, all of these mechanics that come both from history, so understanding the history of the business, but also understanding the people and how they sort of work 'cause as much as the world is changing and it's changing a lot, it's still kind of about A&R. It's still about creative in some way or another. I mean, Carianne's superpower, which she's got many, but the original superpower was understanding not only what works well to picture, but the people that choose music in film and television, advertisements, video games, she's particularly uniquely talented at that. And that's still a core skill that people need to understand. So, you know, I'm the guy that kind of pulls the pieces together. I don't do any of those things. I, you know, originally hired some great people and now I try to invest in great people that do all that stuff, but it's still about understanding it and if you're coming purely from the outside, I think it's challenging. [00:24:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think your career experience speaks a lot to this, right? You mentioned being able to find the left-of-center opportunities when you're at Songs, whether it was Lorde or The Weeknd. And you saw how those turned out. It worked out brilliantly. I'm curious to hear what you think about the way things are right now because, especially with the way that TikTok is and so many of the companies, whether it's the major labels or the independents, they all have access to the same information. So the cost of acquiring and being able to find and develop those same artists is much more expensive. So what do you think those left-of-center opportunities look like today in the current environment where it feels as if there are more and more outlets to find different types of people, but the way that people are going about it, it does seem like a lot of people are now playing a pretty similar game. [00:25:13] Matt Pincus: You mean like a moneyball... [00:25:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah.  [00:25:15] Matt Pincus: ...type of, yeah. So, you know, again, I go back to like, there's sort of in the building and there's outside of the building way of thinking. So in the major system, it makes logical sense that they want to sort of hang back, see what reacts, and go and get it when it reacts, the more predictable something is the more you're willing to pay for it. That makes logical sense. There's nothing wrong with it. They're not idiots for doing that. It's just the way that they traditionally operate. And now it's about, like, seeing the shiny pennies and then grabbing them right away, whatever the cost, because music is much more efficient than it used to be. It used to be that you'd have to, like, release a whole album and sink a bunch of capital into seeing if something works. Now you can kind of tell pretty quickly if something's going to work. So it makes sense to pay a lot for something predictable, as opposed to, you know, paying a little bit for stuff that is wildly uncertain. So, you know, that makes total sense. I think on the independent side, and I really count in that like A&R mentality, like people who are finding artists and developing artists. So it's not just like, you know, independent labels, but it's also like, you know, Electric Feel is a really interesting company that does this, Hallwood. You know, APG is obviously the really great example of this, of finding artists really early and developing them into something or representing people who do that. A lot of, you know, that is about iteration and about understanding, you know, what makes a good story in a particular market. Now, part of that is the music itself. Part of that, most of it is the music itself, but part of that is also all the other stuff around it. You know, how you unfold the narrative, how you stage market entry for an artist. You know, all of those things, again, I come back to the stick to your knitting thing where it's like, as much as the world changes, it kind of remains the same to some degree. So, you know, the interesting and frustrating thing about the music business for people that run companies like I did at Songs is that there's just not that many good, really good, talented people, you know. If there's one structural problem in the music business is there's not enough, really good A&R people, promotion people, you know, creative people.  [00:27:29] Dan Runcie: And why do you think that is? [00:27:30] Matt Pincus: I think it's hard, for one, I think it's hard. And as much as people try to play moneyball, now I'm a big believer in systematic A&R, which some people would consider, you know, moneyball. So in other words, like having a funnel that gives you a group of things that might work, that I'm a big believer in that as a starting point, but that only gets you like 51% confidence. That's not much more than a coin toss. The rest of it is really doing the work of developing the product itself, the music itself, and then the story around it. And it's just a hard business, plus you got to know everybody, you know. So it takes a while to develop those relationships and those skills. One of the things that's interesting when I look on the music tech side of it that I think is one of the great things is that the technological development in music production is allowing people to learn how to use the gear quicker. So you're going to have hit singles coming from 13-year-olds within no time at all. And that used to not be possible because it would take you four or five, six years just to learn how to twist the knobs on a board. Like, it was hard. Now with like, you know, presets, with things like Splice, with AI-assisted creation, you know, anything that makes it easier for an artist to get what's inside of them out, the learning curve is becoming less steep. And that's a good thing because talent shines in that environment. You know, it's one thing to be able to, you know, have a knowledge-base to tweak things. It's another thing to just be a talented and expressive artist with urgency. And so maybe some of that will happen. And on the executive side, like on the A&R side, as things like radio, you know, radio's been so monolithic and so hard to penetrate. And now maybe it's loosening up a little bit, but it still takes a while to figure out what's going to work. It's very hard. And it is one thing to be a fan and be like, this is good, this is not good. It's another thing to take a look at something that doesn't yet exist and be like, this is what it will look like if we can pull it off. I don't have that talent, you know. I'm not an A&R person, but I watch people do it and it's pretty miraculous. And it's not just A&R, it's also promotion, which is an undervalued piece of the equation and increasingly, marketing, digital marketing, like the first cut of it was just, you know, sort of advertising on Facebook. Now it's much more sophisticated than that. And so I feel like it's just hard and I wish there were, you know, there's also the part of the problem in the music business is nobody trains anybody. There's no HR infrastructure. You know, I went to Columbia Business School and I had been in the music business. I didn't have one single meeting about a job that came through the school.  [00:30:14] Dan Runcie: I'm not surprised. That wasn't the case for me either.  [00:30:17] Matt Pincus:  That’s what I'm saying like, nobody trained you. I mean, I remember going on a job interview when I was like 21 coming right out of college or 23 coming right out of college with a guy at ICM. And he said, what do you want to do? I said, I want to be an A&R .He said, great, find a band. That was it. That was the interview. And so it's like, it's that kind of business, which is kind of wonderful in its own way, but it doesn't train people really. And so that's also part of the reason. We don't develop our talent, executive talent pipeline in a really great way.  And that's why people like, you know, Mike Caren at APG is so special. You know, the LVRN guys are so special because they bring along executives in a really concerted kind of way. And I wish there was more of that in the business in general.  [00:30:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's a huge opportunity for it. And I think you see a lot of it play out when there are executive shake ups and who gets picked for certain things and why people get picked for certain things. And to some extent, you see this in other places too, whether there's a mix of internal hires versus external. But one thing that I have noticed is the units that do tend to stick together, or there is some continuity there. You do see a lot of success happen if they understand what works, everyone's into it. And I think some of these other places where it could be a bit of revolving doors with who's in leadership, who's trying to get where it's very tough to have that infrastructure.  [00:31:35] Matt Pincus: And that was one of the great blessings for me at Songs, which is not, doesn't speak well for the industry, particularly, but, you know, Ron and Carianne were two of the most talented people of their generation for sure. And the business didn't know what to do with them. The fact that I could get the two of them and we could all stay together for 12 years and build a company is like a miracle. And that was a big part of the reason why it all worked is because we knew each other really well and people knew us as a unit. We had different things we did. It's a little bit like, you know, kind of what's going on with the professional sports a little bit too, is, you know, it's great that all these individual players are celebrities. And again, great that athletes are making more money, but great teams don't stay together in the same way that they did before. And I think that's changing a little bit now because you don't have to do a deal with a major and get your money the traditional way in order to build a company. And that's one of the reasons I exist as MUSIC, is because there's opportunities to bring outside capital into the business under terms that look a little bit more like sort of venture capital or private equity, which is in a way more fair than the traditional music business has been on a per transaction basis. There's natural reasons why the major music companies finance the music business for as many decades as they did, and it's not to rip people off, it's because nobody else would do it. But now it's a different world and so hopefully some of these things will change. You know, when you have really great entrepreneurs that own their own business, as opposed to, you know, in some JV with a major that's really a compensation agreement, then it's in their interest, like it was in mine when I was running Songs, to bring along really talented people and find new ones. And so that's one of the things that I've sort of hoped for in some way.  [00:33:24] Dan Runcie: Are there any artists that stick out to you as examples of yes, they're building their business and they're doing this the way that could be a blueprint for what we'll see more frequently moving forward? [00:33:34] Matt Pincus: Ones that I talk about all the time is The Weeknd, which we were involved with, you know, from fairly early on. And Sal who's, you know, has been his manager for a very long time, and Cash. You know, I think you're going to see what they did with XO happening in a lot of different ways going forward, where you get a group of people that form a partner and distribute responsibilities between artist, manager. You know, there's people like La Mar Taylor involved with those guys that does all the visual. There's a lot of cooks that need to be in the kitchen to make something really successfully work. The label model of sign to a label, they'll do everything that existed in, like, the nineties is way long gone. Even management where you sort of have somebody who's a commission person that's just doing the business of an artist, that's not true of the good ones anymore. The good ones get in it with the artist and really help them build an entrepreneurial life. I mean, to be an artist now, you need to, like, be like a 140-character joke writer. You need to be an accountant. You need to have a corporate entity. You need to deal with all these different vendors. And you need to be like, you know, P. T. Barnum, like, step right up, step right up, check this out, you're going to love it. It's a complex skill set. And so I think one of the things that you're going to see in the talent representation business, like the management business is I think you're going to see more entity partnership formation, where people are going to go into partnership together. Managers and artists will be like Sal, Sal and Abel have been together for, how long now? Like, I mean... [00:35:08] Dan Runcie: It's at least a decade, right? [00:35:09] Matt Pincus: Yeah. And they've been able to scale and grow and make a lot of money and still be together. And that's because everyone provides value. I'm sure they adjust their relationship, however, over time, I don't know. But I think you're going to see that approach because it takes a village in a way to make really durable stuff. I mean, if you're talking about a viral hit that's here today, gone today. That's one thing. But if you're talking about really building a franchise over a period of time, it requires a lot of work from a lot of people. So I think you'll see sort of, you know, entity formation with partners that include business people and artists in with interest aligned. You know, Diplo's another one. I mean, you know, TMWRK and Diplo have been together for again, going back to since I started working with them. So that was 2011, you know? You look at firms like CRUSH, Jonathan, Daniel has built franchise after franchise of artists that stay with him forever. And he works with him as a partner and that's why it works. So I think you're going to see more of that going forward and and I think that's a good thing. [00:36:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. The Weeknd's a very good example because even from the origins of his career, you could see the mentality of where he saw things. Drake famously offered him the opportunity to come on OVO Sound. They had the whole Toronto connection, Drake put him onto that blog post and everything, but then he was like, no, I don't want to be under another artist when I think I can be just as big as that artist, even bigger and do my own thing and look what he's been able to do now. So I think a lot of it... [00:36:41] Matt Pincus: And by the way, the record deal is a distribution deal.  [00:36:43] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:36:44] Matt Pincus: You know, I mean, there you go. And so in terms of distribution of value, you know, if you can do it, if you're smart enough to have a cool head and plan like those guys did, you know, you can have a much larger enterprise than you normally would. So I hold them up as an example of, you know, what I think is going to happen and is happening really in lots of different areas of the business now. [00:37:07] Dan Runcie: One of the other areas that has gotten a bunch of attention right now has been syncs, and this has been growing, I think, especially given what we've seen with people, especially from outside the music industry, trying to get more involved, but especially this past summer with Kate Bush being featured in Stranger Things. This conversation has been happening more and more. This is another example where it's a mix of that art and science of what does finding a good sync looks like and what happens with it. And I think so much of it, there's maybe a little bit of luck with just how the internet works and how things take off, but there's also a good amount of work that's put into finding the right type of placement for the right type of artists that could make all those things work to make it happen. So how do you view the opportunities for sync right now?  [00:37:53] Matt Pincus: You know, it's interesting. I was sort of a student of Carianne. She taught me the sync business. I literally remember she had a binder where she kept every single interaction she ever had around a song and a placement. And she not only showed me how it all worked, but then we made a software platform out of her own process of how she did it. So I was trained by the best. One of the interesting things about sync is how it always comes back in cycles. You know, when we started Songs, it was like 2004, sync was the whole game. Like, between 2006 and sort of 2009 timeframe, it was the most important thing in a pitch. You know, it was responsible for a lot of our really early successes. And then when it became a largely pop business there in the early days of streaming, it was like sort of radio and super reactive and viral repertoire. It sort of stepped to the background for a minute. And now with the way that kids are bouncing around on a playlist from like, you know, Taylor to like a hip-hop track to, you know, Kate Bush back to Metallica and they don't care. It's become all of a sudden, perhaps one of the top, most important ways repertoire gets discovered now. It's amazing the enduring power of synchronization over time. The thing about sync that I think is interesting is part of it is selection. Like, is this song going to work to picture? But there's a lot that goes into making the deal happen. I mean, that Kate Bush deal as my understanding, I was not involved, but my understanding from, like, just hearing about it was that it took 'em forever to get the clearance done. So a lot of it is not only just is this going to work the picture? Is it the right BPM, the right mood, you know, the right tonality, the right cultural notes, which is a very special thing that music supervisors are particularly good at, but it's also the real politic of like getting the fucking thing cleared. And one of the things that I look at, I tend to have thesis sort of areas when I look at investing in the music business, and one of them is just how fuck the sync business is. That, you know, there should be a buy it now button in the music business if you want to use something for your film, buy it now. And if it was easy, people would pay more. But the problem is they have to roll around a glass to clear a copyright, getting the same deal with 13 songwriters and the master side and it's horribly inefficient. So I think part of the interesting thing with sync in the next generation is how do we do right by the music by making it more usable. Because there's also a couple of different ways this sync business cuts. So, you know, you have stuff that's used in a more traditional sense, and that has a real, like the standard pairing of like, it matter, it makes a huge creative difference and it's very hand selected. Front title and title, you know, big placement in a film television advertisement, but then you have this huge blanket sync business where a lot of the new promotion platform are AV platforms. It's technically synchronization, TikTok, YouTube, you know, Instagram it's technically sync. And I would argue that if there's one element of the business that gives radio a run for its money, it's AV platforms because what happens is people use it in so many videos that you end up hearing the song a thousand times, however many times it takes for you to be like, oh, my God, I have to hear it again. That's really the only place it happens and that's sync. There's a couple of different ways it cuts. You know, the great, like, placements of all time, and we had quite a few of them at Songs that sort of are like, you know, really make a song and make a film. Those are works of art. But also a lot of handling everything else is like maybe 50, 50 at best creative to handling. And so a lot of it is understanding, having those relationships, understanding how to price things, understanding how to clear repertoire, getting permission from the artist to do it. There's a lot of process that goes into it. [00:41:49] Dan Runcie: Is there a sync from your days that song that you look back on that you were like, yeah, that's the one. It took some work, but looking back that's the one.  [00:41:56] Matt Pincus: Wow. That's really, that be would a really better question for Carianne than for me. In terms of like the stuff that really made a difference to us as a business, one of the things that I think was meaningful was when Lorde did the Hunger Games soundtrack in the follow-up movie. That gave us a really good look at how music can be a content element in overall entertainment. The Weeknd did a similar thing with Black Panther where, so it was those sort of tie-in, you know, big-ticket where our music was woven into the substance of the film or the ad in some cases. That I think are really the special moments. Those are two that pop out. There's always like the random one where you have a relatively smaller artist and you get them a sync and, you know, it changes their life. It gives 'em more money than they ever thought was possible. There's also the ones, we had an artist who had a very high level of ethic and I won't name the artist, but independent artist, good earnings, but not a pop artist. And we got a $90,000 ad and for very good ethical reasons, he said, fuck, no, it's not going to happen, not going to approve it. And as much as I was like, it was to do early days of the company, it would've made a huge difference to write 90 grand into my books in a quarter. There's some beauty in the level of control that artists have over their own work in the music business that they don't in a lot of other media that I was like, you know what good for him, I guess we're saying no. There's this artisanal component to it that's really special. [00:43:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Being able to have that power and knowing when it isn't right. I've heard similar things as well from other podcasters I'll talk to when they get pitched with certain deals and stuff, and they'll be like, you know what, that's just not a product I'm willing to do, or that's just not an endorsement I'm willing to have. And it could have been a game changer for them and their business and everything. But I think we're going to see more of this with creators as they just are leveraging their own independence and being able to make their own decisions.  [00:43:59] Matt Pincus: Yeah, exactly.  [00:44:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. [00:44:00] Matt Pincus: Exactly.  [00:44:01] Dan Runcie: I want to close this conversation out talking about streaming 'cause I know this is a topic that you've shared a number of insights on over the years. And one of the things that you've said before that has always stuck out to me and resonated is this path that streaming has been on where it has been growing year over year, but a lot of people, especially in recent months, have started to question how many more subscribers out there are willing to pay the full price for streaming services and even if there is growth in some of these other regions where the revenue coming in is only a fraction of what it currently is now, what does that growth necessarily look like? So I hear that there's two camps there. Some people are skeptical about the future, but others are looking at smartphone adoption and just the way that things are trending as an indicator of where things are going. But how do you view the opportunity and especially streaming's growth from here on out.  [00:44:55] Matt Pincus: Okay. So I think there's a couple of different things there. You know, one is just on-demand streaming and what the growth curve looks like for on-demand stream. I think the broader question is what does overall growth look like for music consumption going forward? And I'm not sure those are totally the same thing. So, you know, listen, Spotify's done an epic job growing that business. It's a difficult business from just the word go, you know, you're relying on content licenses, you're inherently undifferentiated. Like on paper, it looks like this is impossible. And yet they build an unbelievable business out of it. And I really, you know, sort of think it's worth, you know, whatever opinions people have about streaming, to take a step back and realize that the people who did this originally, you know, Larry Jackson and Apple Music, the people who did it originally did a really fucking tremendous job of making it work. It will mature. There's some debate over whether it may have already started to mature in some distinct ways in Western, you know, sort of developed economies and even maybe in some of the larger sort of secondary territories. The really interesting places that we used to see at Songs in our own data are high population, low discretionary income countries, Indonesia, Philippines, a lot of the African continent. I'm not sure it's necessarily in all of those places going to be an on-demand streaming function that, you know, ultimately wins the day. There are people fucking with a model in a bunch of different ways over mobile. Boomplay in Africa is doing a buyout model. You know, it can be woven with other kinds of entertainment in a bundle in a bunch of different ways. So the question of where on-demand streaming goes, it is a little bit like anyone's guess, but there are different opinions between reasonable people about how the growth curve looks. You know, one of the things that I really love about the web three thing, and I think it's in the early days of really grinding the gears to figure out what actually works, 'cause like this sort of, you know, sucking on the laughing gas tank and you know, watching your crypto go up or over now. So it's entering into like a moment where people actually like have to figure out how it works. But the thing that I think is true is that it's unlocked a premium, that people are willing to pay over the cost of consuming music permanently. How big that premium is, we'll see. I think it was overinflated and inorganic in some of the early times of crypto, not a lot, humans are doing it and they're doing it for high ticket prices, you know, but if you look at some of the stuff, for example, that's going on in Asia, where people are throwing money at artists they like just because they want to you know, people paying sort of eye of the beholder price to be associated with an artist that they feel strongly about, that they love early in their career. Like, that's not going away. So whether, you know, the subscription fatigue is a reality, whether effective penny rates, times units of consumption are going up, flattening, going down. You know, we'll see. I mean, the Goldman Sachs people think they're going to go up forever. I'm not sure I totally agree with that. But what is true is that the willingness of people to invest in artists they love is increasing. And I don't think that's going back to zero, so it may not be, you know, that subgrowth continues on forever and on-demand streaming, but it may be that there are other ways that people can figure out how to engage with artists that keep the value, you know, exchange going up. Now, the one thing about streaming that's interesting is that, you know, the TikTok thing, in ways that people, like, talk shit about it all the time, whatever, but the thing that's interesting is that it did introduce frequency back into the equation. And one of the things about music that's unique is that you need to hear a song a number of times before you like it. Like at first you're like, I hate that. And then you hear it like five times and you're like, maybe I want to hear it again. And then by like, whatever end time you hear it, you're like, I can't get it out of my head. I got to hear it. It's like, Barry Weiss used to call it a record finding its bottom, where it would kind of come out and people would spin it, and then it would drop and then at some level would start to rise again. That's a function of promotion. That's a function of frequency. And in the early YouTube time and on-demand streaming time, you didn't really have that. Like, the people couldn't make something frequently play. And the AV platforms, not only TikTok, but also Snap and Instagram changed that equation and that music needs that. The thing that I'm wondering where it will happen, where it will come back into the equation though, is the music press, which has largely disappeared. And so I'm looking for who, on a consumer level there, people like yourself covering the business, part of it, that are doing an extraordinary job, but who sort of tells people what's good, gets it in front of them, filters it and what does that look like? It's probably not printed on a page. It's probably, it's sort of associated, I think in some way with what's going on with the NFT world, you know, with getting people to buy in, getting a community of people bought to projects, but it's still that same mechanism of filtering. And so I'm wondering where that's one of my thesis areas that I have my on. Where's the next one of those?  [00:50:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think this is a role that, of course, MTV and so many other places own and were able to do so well decades ago. And now the commonality I've always referred back to is that TikTok in many ways is the new MTV, but it's more so in the broader sense of just the cultural appeal, but not in that solo aspect of yes, if you want to know what this group of people are pushing, or what is the thing that's in, this is the place to go to find that. And I think it's very tough, the way that things are right now, just with how fragmented things are. But people are always going to want to feel like they're part of what's in or feel like they know what's in that desire also isn't going away. So I think there were always be a space for this, no matter how fragmented. [00:50:53] Matt Pincus: And people don't always know what they like. I mean, who knew that all these people love Kate Bush?  [00:50:58] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:50:58] Matt Pincus: We all understand why. She's amazing. Song's amazing, but people don't always know what they like until somebody shows it to them and repeats it. And then all of a sudden they can't get it out of their head. And that's the magic of music. So how that happens, you know, the cool kids like it up from the bottom, you know, like to be selective, know about the stuff first. The general audience likes to hear things multiple times and then, you know, be addicted to it. And I think that those things will reinvent themselves in a bunch of different ways going forward.  [00:51:27] Dan Runcie: For sure, Matt, before we let you go, do you have one big prediction for us on where you may see things in the next five years or one thing that you think will change from where music is right now to where things will be come 2027? [00:51:40] Matt Pincus: Well, I think as I touched on before, I think younger and younger people are going to be making music that the world reacts. And that is going to be miraculous when it happens. And not necessarily in like a sort of criss-cross Whip / Nae Nae type of way, but in a real, like expressing the core thoughts and feelings they have and getting them out there in a way that sounds good to the world. I think that's going to happen in a bunch of different ways. I think the way that repertoire moves across the planet is going to be revolutionary in the next five years. If there's one thing that's really going to change, you know, it used to be that sort of music went west to east and technology went east to west. Now, I think that's all scrambled eggs right now. If you look at stuff, like, you know, some of the music that's coming out of West Africa right now and how it gets into the global culture. It's not like in a, you know, used to be like you had like a world music business. Like, that's ripped up and thrown away. And so I think, you know, the way that the in-country community relates to the diaspora community in around the globe is going to be really different. You know, I think if there's one thing I have my eye on, it's sort of how all that stuff travels. And obviously, there's some obvious examples like BTS. But I think this is going to happen anywhere and everywhere. And one of the things that I heard somebody say the other day that I felt was really interesting is that the music business thinks about countries in its marketing. You know, they've Europe and Asia and Australia, Canada, US. It should be cities because music is about scenes and it's going to travel that way. And so your Amsterdam strategy is going to be different from your Seoul strategy is going to be different from your São Paulo strategy. And so if there's one like broad thing, I think we're going to look at the way that music travels around the planet in a completely different way.  [00:53:37] Dan Runcie: That's spot on. Look at the way we think about music here in the US. That should be an indication of how it should be looked at elsewhere, right? We know what Atlanta hip-hop sounds like compared to what you may hear in LA or even the New Orleans bounce sound. Like, it's so different place to place. So you look at a country like Nigeria, which is soon going to eclipse the US in population. What you may hear in Lagos would be completely different from other parts of the country. So that's a really great point.  [00:54:05] Matt Pincus: Yeah. So that would be like, if I, you know, sort of, if I had to obsess about something, it would be that.  [00:54:10] Dan Runcie: And I think a lot of people listening probably will too. This is a good one. I think that you got a bunch of notes for people to jot down. So Matt, thank you for making the time for this. This is fun. Thanks for coming on.  [00:54:21] Matt Pincus: Thank you so much. I just really appreciate your thinking to me. And it's a pleasure to talk to you about all this stuff. [00:54:27] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 20 Apr 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Rerun: Investing $200 Million In Music with Matt Pincus full Dan Runcie This week, I’m running back an interview with one of the most popular episodes we ever did with Matt Pincus from 2022.  Matt Pincus is without question one of the most successful entrepreneurs in the music industry. He sold his independent music publishing company, SONGS, for $160 million five years ago. And now, the music holdings company he co-founded, MUSIC, just raised $200 million to invest in music and music-adjacent companies.  Though, Matt doesn’t see MUSIC as an investment fund, but rather a holding company. That’s because he’s taking an operator role in the companies he funds. And unlike the splashy catalog acquisitions that’ve dominated the space over the past few years, Matt is looking forward with his investments and targeting brand-new growth opportunities instead. In particular, Matt sees big opportunities in the technology sector, web3, and even record labels and publishing. At SONGS, Matt was able to spot and develop up-and-coming songwriters, inking early deals with the likes of Diplo, Lorde, and The Weeknd. He’ll be tasked with finding similar success at MUSIC.   Matt and I dove deep into a wide-range of topics during our conversation. Here’s a few highlights of what we covered: [2:47] Why Matt created MUSIC [7:19] MUSIC’s investment thesis? [13:22] What Matt doesn’t like about the music business  [19:36] Recent inflow of capital into the music business [20:54] Two lanes to entering music business [24:08] Finding left-of-center opportunities among musical talent  [27:30] The structural problem of the music business [30:44] Continuity was key to SONGS success [35:59] The Weeknd as a business blueprint for other artists [36:53] Sync business opportunities  [43:46] Have streaming subscriptions peaked? [48:12] Tiktok brought back music frequency [51:13] Matt’s five-year predictions Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Matt Pincus, @mpinc Sponsors: MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital Newsly is your all-in-one audio super app to hear the trending topics on the entire web. Download newsly.me for free and use the promo code ‘TRAP’ to receive a 1-month free subscription. Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Matt Pincus: Defensibility in the music business is not a patent or a technology or some special recipe you have someplace. It's your understanding of music, the people that make it, and then your ability to develop relationships with people around the business and to keep your reputation such that people want to be with you. But the real key in, at least in the music technology side of it is you need to be able to spin the technology yourself and understand really how it works.  [00:00:37] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:56] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is with one of the most successful music entrepreneurs of the past few decades. His name is Matt Pincus and he is the founder and CEO of MUSIC, which is a holding company that invests in music tech and music-adjacent companies. MUSIC just launched a 200 million fund to invest in this space, so Matt and I talked all about it. He's looking for companies that still have a clear understanding for how music gets made and understand the art behind it. He's also looking for startups that have a true defensible moat that is something unique that they can do. And he's also looking for the companies that have a huge total addressable market that can clearly grow and expand as we're seeing things continue to grow in this space. Our conversation covered a bunch of topics in this space. We talked about sync and the impact of that. We also talked about how much further streaming can go. And we talked about a bunch of insightful music trends. Really fascinating conversation. I feel like every few months we have one of those conversations where people reach out to me and say, Hey, I took a bunch of notes in that conversation. Thank you for this. And I have a good feeling, I have a good feeling that this is going to be one of those conversations. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Matt Pincus.  [00:02:16] Dan Runcie: All right. Today, we're joined by Matt Pincus, who is the founder of MUSIC, which is a holding company that invested music and music-adjacent companies. Matt, I'm really excited to have this conversation because you have had a very impressive career with what you did with Songs and everything that you had done in publishing specifically. And what always stuck out to me about you in this space is how you've identified opportunities where others didn't see them. So I know when I saw the announcement for MUSIC and the $200 million fund you launched, I said, okay, he's seeing something and he's seeing an opportunity to dive in. So what did you see? What made you want to get involved with this? [00:02:58] Matt Pincus: Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm a big admirer of Trapital and your work in general. And I'm really happy to be with you here today. So, you know, I started music, it was sort of an organic process. I sold Songs after running it for about 13 years. And it was a fairly abrupt end. So we decided to sell the company and neither me nor my two partners really wanted to run it for somebody else. So we decided that once we sold it, it was time to step away and it was fairly quick. So, you know, I ran the company for 12-plus years. And then 90 days after the sale, I was out in the street, like, what am I going to do with my life? So it was a bit of an organic process. It started with meeting a lot of really interesting founders of music businesses and companies that were around the music business. It's obviously an interesting time in our business in a number of different ways. The streaming market has matured. There are a lot of music tech businesses with interesting founders cropping up over the past four or five years. The web three crypto business has, you know, started the early days of really coming online. And the way that labels, publishing companies, management companies reach audiences is really different than it was like, you know, six, seven years ago. So I met a lot of really interesting people. The first one was Steve Martocci, who was the founder of Splice. He and I hit it off particularly well. And I sort of said, listen, I've been, you know, doing talent deals with young people, you know, in the early twenties for the past 12 years, I think maybe the next chapter is working with founders of companies that are more like 10 years younger than me, as opposed to, you know, 20, early 20s. And taking the experience that I had in the last, like, four or five years of songs when we were trying to figure out how to really realize returns on the business and build on that to try to help people do the same thing. So I was out looking for, you know, are there interesting companies that I might be able to work with in some way or another? And the answer to that quickly became kind of yes, on the music tech side originally, in growth companies, when online music and music technology was shifting to a subscription-based backbone as opposed to a packet software business. And then also on the music side of it, you know, interesting independent labels, music companies operating in a different way. And so the first thing was, are there interesting companies out there? The second is, do they need capital and where would they get it from? And the third was, how am I going to get the money to invest in these businesses? So it was kind of a bit of a bootstrapping exercise where I would go find an opportunity to invest in a company, put some of my own money in LionTree, which sold songs for me and has been a partner and champion of mine since I sold the company, would invest some money too, and then we'd find some other people to round out the investment. We did that first with Splice, put about 20 million into the company over a period of time. We also did in the same way, made an investment in a company called HIFI, which is a FinTech platform benefiting artists in a bunch of different ways, and also with DICE, the ticketing business. And you know, they started, a couple of them did well and actually, they all did well. And so I decided that I wanted to raise some capital and have my own sort of, it's not really a fund. It's more of a holding company 'cause I'm less of an investor and more of an operator. And so the question became, how are we going to raise the money? Now Aryeh Bourkoff who runs LionTree is somewhat of a magic maker, and he took me on and introduced me to two families, the Schusterman Family and JS Capital, which is Jonathan Soros's capital vehicle. And they agreed to invest in a four-way partnership. So it's between me, LionTree, Schusterman Family, and JS Capital. And we formed MUSIC, which is a $200 million holding company. We do deals in a couple of different areas, music tech, which is sort of where I spent most of my time after Songs. We also invest in independent music companies like Songs. So labels publishing companies, management companies. Increasingly, a few of those functions are in one company, as opposed to when I was running Songs, it was like you were either a publisher or a label or a management company. And then we partner sometimes with a larger private equity firm if we are interested in acquiring something that's, you know, of a larger size. And so we're in the middle of one of those right now. And so we were able to find a bunch of interesting opportunity, a bunch of interesting ways, and it seems to me to be, you know, a really good time to be putting money to work in the music business.  [00:07:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's an exciting time to be investing in these companies and to be acquiring them too. And you mentioned something there about the types of companies you're looking at and whether they are modern music companies or whether they are doing something that's unique in the space. Can you talk a little bit more about your investment thesis and what you're looking for, and specifically, because, as you mentioned, you're not a fund, you're a holding company, so you're not necessarily just doing, you know, angel investments or early stage. You're trying to make investments for the long haul. So how does that shape your strategy? [00:08:07] Matt Pincus: Very good question. And I think the answer to that depends somewhat on the different areas of investment. So the first is in the technology side of the business, which is kind of where I started as an investor. So, you look for a couple of things there. So first of all, you need to invest in companies, not products. So some of the music startups can be sort of, it's an interesting widget, but can it be a scalable business? So you need to make sure that you have a couple of things in order to know that you're investing in a company that has the ability to grow. So the first thing is you need your own tech stack and it needs to be built to suit whatever market you want to be in. So for example, with Splice, one of the reasons, and there were several, but one of the reasons I invested in the company was because Steve had built this subscription stack from day one of the company. So it was a native SaaS company in a world where the rest of the market needed to move from the old way of doing business to the new way of doing business. Splice was always in the new way of doing business, so it was going to be ahead of the curve. And so you need to make sure that your technical capabilities and your technical assets are going to, you know, be where you want to go. The second is that you need to make sure you're in a part of the market that has a big enough user base to make a real company out of it. You know, it's great to make a widget that, you know, 1500 people love, love, love, but 1500 people is not a lot of people. So you need to make sure that the addressable market around the business has a lot of users. And again, in Splice's case, you know, they are the content business in music tech. So they can be used in an infinite amount of applications across the business, which gives them, you know, a really solid user base. And so, you know, that's kind of the second thing. And the third thing is that you need to kind of own where you live or have the ability to own where you live. So, you know, it's great if you get into a category in the technology side of the business, that, you know, breaks some ground and shows everybody what can be done. But if then, you know, Apple or Google just says, thank you very much and does it instead of you, it's not so great. So you need to have a defensible business that you can build and scale. And again, back to Splice, you know, they are the content leader and I'm a music publisher by trade, so content is the water supply in the music business. You know, in publishing, it's the song that starts the whole conversation. Splice owns music. And so no matter where the market is going to grow, no matter where it ends up going, they have the supply that feeds the music tech business. And so it's inherently defensible when it gets up to a certain level. You know, at this point they have 3 million works in their database. To catch up to them is, you know, difficult, if not impossible. And so you need to be defensible now on the music side of what I do, which is investing in music companies, there's a couple of things I look for. So first of all, I don't do catalog acquisitions. I invest in people. So the first thing is that you need to have really talented executives that understand music and know how to find repertoire and make it bigger. I tend to like businesses that give advances to artists. There's a certain way, like at Songs, we built a catalog over a long period of time, but we built it through signing young writers and giving them advances. So I call it a mattress out of sheets. If you do that one after another, over many, many years and you do it well, all of a sudden you wake up, you know, 7 to 10, 12 years later, and you're like, holy shit, it's a big catalog. And so I tend to like businesses that advance money to artists and build catalog that way or manage catalog that way. There's a certain magic to understanding how to compensate artists and doing it fairly. So I tend to look at that. You know, the music business has changed a lot. It used to be that if you wanted to be an independent, you needed to own your own vertical. And you know, at Songs, we had our global administration business that we owned and built. We had our own technology. So we were self-contained, standalone competitor. Now I think, you know, solutions have become available everywhere. There's a lot of good publishing administration, a lot of good record distribution solutions. There's a lot of off-the-shelf stuff you can get. It's really about music. It's really about understanding artists and the music that they make and connecting them with an audience. So I look for people who uniquely understand that. Now that can be, you know, somebody who has a geographical lock on a particular kind of music. It can be somebody that has a particularly unique understanding of how the studio works because I think if there's one big change in the music publishing business lately, it's that it's gone really back to the studio. And the interesting companies are actually making songs in real-time in a studio environment. So it can be that. It can be that you have another business that you do and music is associated with it. So why not, you know, get into the music business while you're doing whatever else you do, but you need to have some reason why you have access to a particular group of artists in a particular kind of repertoire, and you're helpful to that in some way or another. And so it's quite a different set of things that I look for on that side than on the technology side.  [00:13:34] Dan Runcie: And with the way that your firm is structured, too, I see parallels with the types of companies you're looking at, right? You're not just focused on one particular type of investment area. You have the music tech companies that you're looking at. Splice is an example. You also have the companies that are working more directly in music itself, whether that is giving advances or companies that have a unique edge on who they're reaching. And I think that translates as well when you're talking about the types of companies you're looking at because a lot of times, especially 10, 15 years ago, as you mentioned, there were more silos and now you're starting to see companies have different types of roles that they do or different divisions to try to be this nebulous term that I've heard several times as broader entertainment company. And while I think that that's effective, I could also see how that could challenge some of the challenges of being able to have a business that is defensible or having a moat and the focus that comes with that. So how do you balance that and what are the things that you look for when evaluating companies that are both trying to do it all, but also are trying to have something that they can be defensible with?  [00:14:40] Matt Pincus: Well, so on the music side of it, you know, it's about relationships. You know, the good companies, their equity is their relationships with different people around the business. And it's really a human-centric business. So, you know, defensibility often is correlated with reputation in the independent music business, at least. That was certainly true of Songs. One of the big success factors of the company and in fact, like, kind of our asset was that me and Ron and Carianne had really good relationships around the business that we built over many years, and that allowed us to punch above our weight class. You know, when we were a very small business, you know, we acted as a bigger business because we were able to get champions that helped us along the way, both in terms of the artists that were willing to sign with us, but also in terms of, you know, other people around the business that took us on and helped us out. Oddly enough defensibility in the music business is not a patent or a technology or some special recipe you have someplace. It's your understanding of music, the people that make it, and then your ability to develop relationships with people around the business and to keep your reputation such that people want to be with you. You know, on the tech side of it, it's a little bit different. You have to make sure that your innovation curve is constantly there. You have to make sure, like, I would not invest in a business that did not have a technical co-founder. You know, ideas are great. Everybody's got ideas. You know, there's an app for anything. But the real key in, at least in the music technology side of it is you need to be able to spin the technology yourself and understand really how it works, which when you get into the crypto side of it's really interesting 'cause a lot of people understand the implications of it, but they have no idea how the shit works. They don't actually use it. And they get kind of confused thinking that it's much more complicated than in fact it really is. Or, you know, they get so fascinated with the technology that they don't make a product that stands on its own bottom and has value to the end user. So it's a little bit different in the different areas of the market that you look at. And one of the reasons why I like the field that I play on and I feel very lucky to be able to do the different things that I can do with music is because some of it is about sort of analytical, scalable technology-oriented investments. And some of it is just about people in tunes. And so you're kind of mixing a lot of different things together. You know, the one thing that I don't like so much about the recent music business is somehow we all slipped into talking about music as assets and fractional finance and cash flows and securitization. And I'm like, listen, if I wanted to do all that shit, I do it not here. You know, the music business is not assets and finance and cash flows and, you know, securitization. The music business is moving people, motivating people, creating an audience, assembling humans to want what you make, and distributing that and delivering it and all the rest of that stuff. You know, the fact like, listen, what I'm doing is either really smart or really dumb because either you can make a real investment business just out of the music business. And I think you can because there's lots of different types of investments in music and there's lots of growth and lots of possibility. But also, you know, it's a pretty small business. And I live in, play, you know, a neighborhood, the size of a postage stamp. We'll see if they can be done, but I think originally, you know, it starts with the creative and it starts with the means of delivering the creative to the people that want it. And then all of the rest of this stuff, you know, yield, debt payments, multiples on equity, bonds, all the rest of this stuff just is a happy accident that comes from doing your job well. [00:18:35] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you mentioned this because there's a version of what you do that could easily look more like a traditional private equity firm, where they are just going in and doing all of the things that you just mentioned and they're coming more from that perspective, but in many ways, your defense is having this laser focus on music, but you're going deep within all of the areas that it encompasses. And with that, I have to assume that this also maybe has a bit of a flavor on what your take is about the money that has come into the music industry and some of those other non-music companies or those that are purely looking at it for the financial opportunity or for the noncorrelated opportunities and how that in a lot of ways, even though on paper, someone that's fundraising may see the money they can get from you versus the money they get from others. But I'm hearing it from the record labels. And especially the independent ones they're getting reached out to all the time now about acquisitions. And a lot of those calls are coming from non-music related companies that are trying to make those moves. So it's been fascinating to see how that shapes, but I do feel like you are going about this in a much more unique way than a lot of them are. [00:19:49] Matt Pincus: Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. I will say that the recent, like, huge inflow of capital into the music business has one very good byproduct, which is it's giving a lot of money to songwriters and artists. Some of these catalogs getting valued at 20 times, 30 times, you know, NPS where they would've been valued at 10, you know, four or five years ago, maybe 10 years ago. It just results in people that make great music, making a bunch of bucks. And there's nothing at all wrong with that. On the catalog side of it, it makes a little bit more sense that some of these like larger capital vehicles are coming into the market and, you know, bidding things up and structuring the leverage in a certain way that makes sense. There's a big difference between what's going on now and what was going on when this first happened, like in 2006, 2007 timeframe because the people that are doing it now can afford it. They've got lots and lots of money. They don't need big returns on that money. They have the ability to structure this stuff financially in ways that don't make no sense. And so it makes, you know, more sense that people are doing that with the IP catalog acquisition business. When it gets to new music, you know, I think it's still a human business. I think you got to know the people, you know, and you have to understand how it's really about managing what I refer to as the working capital of the business. So, you know, you need to advance money, you need to collect that money, you need to reinvest the money. And so a lot of that, you know, it's not a big enough business that you can structure it like a bunch of bonds. You need to kind of understand the market that you're in, how many deals you could possibly get, and what about you ought to pay for them, and what kind of infrastructure you need to address all of that to do a good job. And that's hard to know from outside of the business. It's even hard to know, like there's sort of two lanes in the music business. There's people who came up through the building where they started at majors and they kind of built their career, you know, up from coordinator to director to senior director to VPs, SVP, EVP. And then they end up running the company, a lot of great people who came up that way. And then there's people who kind of feed in the wild. Like, come outside of the building and need to figure out, like, what's available. And there's some real differences, you know. Sometimes they cross over like Ron Perry who was an instrumental person at Songs from, you know, the very beginning to through time we sold and now runs Columbia. So sometimes that happens. Or Carianne who, you know, also was my partner at Songs who now runs Warner Chappell with Guy Moot. It's like there, you know, it happens, but there are really two lanes. And I think in the independent side, it's a lot about systematic A&R so about looking at, listen, none of us are overfunded with tons of money. So, you know, everybody's stretching the dough. And it becomes about how can I build this system in the world that I live that can do deals inexpensively, and then find the ones that are working and invest and push them forward. And all the great independent music companies, you know, Chrysalis, Jive Zomba, A&M Rondor, all the great ones throughout history sort of did that really effectively or were usually like the other ones. So everybody goes to the majors to get their offer. And then there's these other cooler guys that are there, like, you know, kind of fucking with the majors by picking off all the left to center stuff that was us at Songs. You know, and all those other companies I just mentioned were kind of some version of that. But there's kind of, all of these mechanics that come both from history, so understanding the history of the business, but also understanding the people and how they sort of work 'cause as much as the world is changing and it's changing a lot, it's still kind of about A&R. It's still about creative in some way or another. I mean, Carianne's superpower, which she's got many, but the original superpower was understanding not only what works well to picture, but the people that choose music in film and television, advertisements, video games, she's particularly uniquely talented at that. And that's still a core skill that people need to understand. So, you know, I'm the guy that kind of pulls the pieces together. I don't do any of those things. I, you know, originally hired some great people and now I try to invest in great people that do all that stuff, but it's still about understanding it and if you're coming purely from the outside, I think it's challenging. [00:24:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think your career experience speaks a lot to this, right? You mentioned being able to find the left-of-center opportunities when you're at Songs, whether it was Lorde or The Weeknd. And you saw how those turned out. It worked out brilliantly. I'm curious to hear what you think about the way things are right now because, especially with the way that TikTok is and so many of the companies, whether it's the major labels or the independents, they all have access to the same information. So the cost of acquiring and being able to find and develop those same artists is much more expensive. So what do you think those left-of-center opportunities look like today in the current environment where it feels as if there are more and more outlets to find different types of people, but the way that people are going about it, it does seem like a lot of people are now playing a pretty similar game. [00:25:13] Matt Pincus: You mean like a moneyball... [00:25:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah.  [00:25:15] Matt Pincus: ...type of, yeah. So, you know, again, I go back to like, there's sort of in the building and there's outside of the building way of thinking. So in the major system, it makes logical sense that they want to sort of hang back, see what reacts, and go and get it when it reacts, the more predictable something is the more you're willing to pay for it. That makes logical sense. There's nothing wrong with it. They're not idiots for doing that. It's just the way that they traditionally operate. And now it's about, like, seeing the shiny pennies and then grabbing them right away, whatever the cost, because music is much more efficient than it used to be. It used to be that you'd have to, like, release a whole album and sink a bunch of capital into seeing if something works. Now you can kind of tell pretty quickly if something's going to work. So it makes sense to pay a lot for something predictable, as opposed to, you know, paying a little bit for stuff that is wildly uncertain. So, you know, that makes total sense. I think on the independent side, and I really count in that like A&R mentality, like people who are finding artists and developing artists. So it's not just like, you know, independent labels, but it's also like, you know, Electric Feel is a really interesting company that does this, Hallwood. You know, APG is obviously the really great example of this, of finding artists really early and developing them into something or representing people who do that. A lot of, you know, that is about iteration and about understanding, you know, what makes a good story in a particular market. Now, part of that is the music itself. Part of that, most of it is the music itself, but part of that is also all the other stuff around it. You know, how you unfold the narrative, how you stage market entry for an artist. You know, all of those things, again, I come back to the stick to your knitting thing where it's like, as much as the world changes, it kind of remains the same to some degree. So, you know, the interesting and frustrating thing about the music business for people that run companies like I did at Songs is that there's just not that many good, really good, talented people, you know. If there's one structural problem in the music business is there's not enough, really good A&R people, promotion people, you know, creative people.  [00:27:29] Dan Runcie: And why do you think that is? [00:27:30] Matt Pincus: I think it's hard, for one, I think it's hard. And as much as people try to play moneyball, now I'm a big believer in systematic A&R, which some people would consider, you know, moneyball. So in other words, like having a funnel that gives you a group of things that might work, that I'm a big believer in that as a starting point, but that only gets you like 51% confidence. That's not much more than a coin toss. The rest of it is really doing the work of developing the product itself, the music itself, and then the story around it. And it's just a hard business, plus you got to know everybody, you know. So it takes a while to develop those relationships and those skills. One of the things that's interesting when I look on the music tech side of it that I think is one of the great things is that the technological development in music production is allowing people to learn how to use the gear quicker. So you're going to have hit singles coming from 13-year-olds within no time at all. And that used to not be possible because it would take you four or five, six years just to learn how to twist the knobs on a board. Like, it was hard. Now with like, you know, presets, with things like Splice, with AI-assisted creation, you know, anything that makes it easier for an artist to get what's inside of them out, the learning curve is becoming less steep. And that's a good thing because talent shines in that environment. You know, it's one thing to be able to, you know, have a knowledge-base to tweak things. It's another thing to just be a talented and expressive artist with urgency. And so maybe some of that will happen. And on the executive side, like on the A&R side, as things like radio, you know, radio's been so monolithic and so hard to penetrate. And now maybe it's loosening up a little bit, but it still takes a while to figure out what's going to work. It's very hard. And it is one thing to be a fan and be like, this is good, this is not good. It's another thing to take a look at something that doesn't yet exist and be like, this is what it will look like if we can pull it off. I don't have that talent, you know. I'm not an A&R person, but I watch people do it and it's pretty miraculous. And it's not just A&R, it's also promotion, which is an undervalued piece of the equation and increasingly, marketing, digital marketing, like the first cut of it was just, you know, sort of advertising on Facebook. Now it's much more sophisticated than that. And so I feel like it's just hard and I wish there were, you know, there's also the part of the problem in the music business is nobody trains anybody. There's no HR infrastructure. You know, I went to Columbia Business School and I had been in the music business. I didn't have one single meeting about a job that came through the school.  [00:30:14] Dan Runcie: I'm not surprised. That wasn't the case for me either.  [00:30:17] Matt Pincus:  That’s what I'm saying like, nobody trained you. I mean, I remember going on a job interview when I was like 21 coming right out of college or 23 coming right out of college with a guy at ICM. And he said, what do you want to do? I said, I want to be an A&R .He said, great, find a band. That was it. That was the interview. And so it's like, it's that kind of business, which is kind of wonderful in its own way, but it doesn't train people really. And so that's also part of the reason. We don't develop our talent, executive talent pipeline in a really great way.  And that's why people like, you know, Mike Caren at APG is so special. You know, the LVRN guys are so special because they bring along executives in a really concerted kind of way. And I wish there was more of that in the business in general.  [00:30:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's a huge opportunity for it. And I think you see a lot of it play out when there are executive shake ups and who gets picked for certain things and why people get picked for certain things. And to some extent, you see this in other places too, whether there's a mix of internal hires versus external. But one thing that I have noticed is the units that do tend to stick together, or there is some continuity there. You do see a lot of success happen if they understand what works, everyone's into it. And I think some of these other places where it could be a bit of revolving doors with who's in leadership, who's trying to get where it's very tough to have that infrastructure.  [00:31:35] Matt Pincus: And that was one of the great blessings for me at Songs, which is not, doesn't speak well for the industry, particularly, but, you know, Ron and Carianne were two of the most talented people of their generation for sure. And the business didn't know what to do with them. The fact that I could get the two of them and we could all stay together for 12 years and build a company is like a miracle. And that was a big part of the reason why it all worked is because we knew each other really well and people knew us as a unit. We had different things we did. It's a little bit like, you know, kind of what's going on with the professional sports a little bit too, is, you know, it's great that all these individual players are celebrities. And again, great that athletes are making more money, but great teams don't stay together in the same way that they did before. And I think that's changing a little bit now because you don't have to do a deal with a major and get your money the traditional way in order to build a company. And that's one of the reasons I exist as MUSIC, is because there's opportunities to bring outside capital into the business under terms that look a little bit more like sort of venture capital or private equity, which is in a way more fair than the traditional music business has been on a per transaction basis. There's natural reasons why the major music companies finance the music business for as many decades as they did, and it's not to rip people off, it's because nobody else would do it. But now it's a different world and so hopefully some of these things will change. You know, when you have really great entrepreneurs that own their own business, as opposed to, you know, in some JV with a major that's really a compensation agreement, then it's in their interest, like it was in mine when I was running Songs, to bring along really talented people and find new ones. And so that's one of the things that I've sort of hoped for in some way.  [00:33:24] Dan Runcie: Are there any artists that stick out to you as examples of yes, they're building their business and they're doing this the way that could be a blueprint for what we'll see more frequently moving forward? [00:33:34] Matt Pincus: Ones that I talk about all the time is The Weeknd, which we were involved with, you know, from fairly early on. And Sal who's, you know, has been his manager for a very long time, and Cash. You know, I think you're going to see what they did with XO happening in a lot of different ways going forward, where you get a group of people that form a partner and distribute responsibilities between artist, manager. You know, there's people like La Mar Taylor involved with those guys that does all the visual. There's a lot of cooks that need to be in the kitchen to make something really successfully work. The label model of sign to a label, they'll do everything that existed in, like, the nineties is way long gone. Even management where you sort of have somebody who's a commission person that's just doing the business of an artist, that's not true of the good ones anymore. The good ones get in it with the artist and really help them build an entrepreneurial life. I mean, to be an artist now, you need to, like, be like a 140-character joke writer. You need to be an accountant. You need to have a corporate entity. You need to deal with all these different vendors. And you need to be like, you know, P. T. Barnum, like, step right up, step right up, check this out, you're going to love it. It's a complex skill set. And so I think one of the things that you're going to see in the talent representation business, like the management business is I think you're going to see more entity partnership formation, where people are going to go into partnership together. Managers and artists will be like Sal, Sal and Abel have been together for, how long now? Like, I mean... [00:35:08] Dan Runcie: It's at least a decade, right? [00:35:09] Matt Pincus: Yeah. And they've been able to scale and grow and make a lot of money and still be together. And that's because everyone provides value. I'm sure they adjust their relationship, however, over time, I don't know. But I think you're going to see that approach because it takes a village in a way to make really durable stuff. I mean, if you're talking about a viral hit that's here today, gone today. That's one thing. But if you're talking about really building a franchise over a period of time, it requires a lot of work from a lot of people. So I think you'll see sort of, you know, entity formation with partners that include business people and artists in with interest aligned. You know, Diplo's another one. I mean, you know, TMWRK and Diplo have been together for again, going back to since I started working with them. So that was 2011, you know? You look at firms like CRUSH, Jonathan, Daniel has built franchise after franchise of artists that stay with him forever. And he works with him as a partner and that's why it works. So I think you're going to see more of that going forward and and I think that's a good thing. [00:36:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. The Weeknd's a very good example because even from the origins of his career, you could see the mentality of where he saw things. Drake famously offered him the opportunity to come on OVO Sound. They had the whole Toronto connection, Drake put him onto that blog post and everything, but then he was like, no, I don't want to be under another artist when I think I can be just as big as that artist, even bigger and do my own thing and look what he's been able to do now. So I think a lot of it... [00:36:41] Matt Pincus: And by the way, the record deal is a distribution deal.  [00:36:43] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:36:44] Matt Pincus: You know, I mean, there you go. And so in terms of distribution of value, you know, if you can do it, if you're smart enough to have a cool head and plan like those guys did, you know, you can have a much larger enterprise than you normally would. So I hold them up as an example of, you know, what I think is going to happen and is happening really in lots of different areas of the business now. [00:37:07] Dan Runcie: One of the other areas that has gotten a bunch of attention right now has been syncs, and this has been growing, I think, especially given what we've seen with people, especially from outside the music industry, trying to get more involved, but especially this past summer with Kate Bush being featured in Stranger Things. This conversation has been happening more and more. This is another example where it's a mix of that art and science of what does finding a good sync looks like and what happens with it. And I think so much of it, there's maybe a little bit of luck with just how the internet works and how things take off, but there's also a good amount of work that's put into finding the right type of placement for the right type of artists that could make all those things work to make it happen. So how do you view the opportunities for sync right now?  [00:37:53] Matt Pincus: You know, it's interesting. I was sort of a student of Carianne. She taught me the sync business. I literally remember she had a binder where she kept every single interaction she ever had around a song and a placement. And she not only showed me how it all worked, but then we made a software platform out of her own process of how she did it. So I was trained by the best. One of the interesting things about sync is how it always comes back in cycles. You know, when we started Songs, it was like 2004, sync was the whole game. Like, between 2006 and sort of 2009 timeframe, it was the most important thing in a pitch. You know, it was responsible for a lot of our really early successes. And then when it became a largely pop business there in the early days of streaming, it was like sort of radio and super reactive and viral repertoire. It sort of stepped to the background for a minute. And now with the way that kids are bouncing around on a playlist from like, you know, Taylor to like a hip-hop track to, you know, Kate Bush back to Metallica and they don't care. It's become all of a sudden, perhaps one of the top, most important ways repertoire gets discovered now. It's amazing the enduring power of synchronization over time. The thing about sync that I think is interesting is part of it is selection. Like, is this song going to work to picture? But there's a lot that goes into making the deal happen. I mean, that Kate Bush deal as my understanding, I was not involved, but my understanding from, like, just hearing about it was that it took 'em forever to get the clearance done. So a lot of it is not only just is this going to work the picture? Is it the right BPM, the right mood, you know, the right tonality, the right cultural notes, which is a very special thing that music supervisors are particularly good at, but it's also the real politic of like getting the fucking thing cleared. And one of the things that I look at, I tend to have thesis sort of areas when I look at investing in the music business, and one of them is just how fuck the sync business is. That, you know, there should be a buy it now button in the music business if you want to use something for your film, buy it now. And if it was easy, people would pay more. But the problem is they have to roll around a glass to clear a copyright, getting the same deal with 13 songwriters and the master side and it's horribly inefficient. So I think part of the interesting thing with sync in the next generation is how do we do right by the music by making it more usable. Because there's also a couple of different ways this sync business cuts. So, you know, you have stuff that's used in a more traditional sense, and that has a real, like the standard pairing of like, it matter, it makes a huge creative difference and it's very hand selected. Front title and title, you know, big placement in a film television advertisement, but then you have this huge blanket sync business where a lot of the new promotion platform are AV platforms. It's technically synchronization, TikTok, YouTube, you know, Instagram it's technically sync. And I would argue that if there's one element of the business that gives radio a run for its money, it's AV platforms because what happens is people use it in so many videos that you end up hearing the song a thousand times, however many times it takes for you to be like, oh, my God, I have to hear it again. That's really the only place it happens and that's sync. There's a couple of different ways it cuts. You know, the great, like, placements of all time, and we had quite a few of them at Songs that sort of are like, you know, really make a song and make a film. Those are works of art. But also a lot of handling everything else is like maybe 50, 50 at best creative to handling. And so a lot of it is understanding, having those relationships, understanding how to price things, understanding how to clear repertoire, getting permission from the artist to do it. There's a lot of process that goes into it. [00:41:49] Dan Runcie: Is there a sync from your days that song that you look back on that you were like, yeah, that's the one. It took some work, but looking back that's the one.  [00:41:56] Matt Pincus: Wow. That's really, that be would a really better question for Carianne than for me. In terms of like the stuff that really made a difference to us as a business, one of the things that I think was meaningful was when Lorde did the Hunger Games soundtrack in the follow-up movie. That gave us a really good look at how music can be a content element in overall entertainment. The Weeknd did a similar thing with Black Panther where, so it was those sort of tie-in, you know, big-ticket where our music was woven into the substance of the film or the ad in some cases. That I think are really the special moments. Those are two that pop out. There's always like the random one where you have a relatively smaller artist and you get them a sync and, you know, it changes their life. It gives 'em more money than they ever thought was possible. There's also the ones, we had an artist who had a very high level of ethic and I won't name the artist, but independent artist, good earnings, but not a pop artist. And we got a $90,000 ad and for very good ethical reasons, he said, fuck, no, it's not going to happen, not going to approve it. And as much as I was like, it was to do early days of the company, it would've made a huge difference to write 90 grand into my books in a quarter. There's some beauty in the level of control that artists have over their own work in the music business that they don't in a lot of other media that I was like, you know what good for him, I guess we're saying no. There's this artisanal component to it that's really special. [00:43:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Being able to have that power and knowing when it isn't right. I've heard similar things as well from other podcasters I'll talk to when they get pitched with certain deals and stuff, and they'll be like, you know what, that's just not a product I'm willing to do, or that's just not an endorsement I'm willing to have. And it could have been a game changer for them and their business and everything. But I think we're going to see more of this with creators as they just are leveraging their own independence and being able to make their own decisions.  [00:43:59] Matt Pincus: Yeah, exactly.  [00:44:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. [00:44:00] Matt Pincus: Exactly.  [00:44:01] Dan Runcie: I want to close this conversation out talking about streaming 'cause I know this is a topic that you've shared a number of insights on over the years. And one of the things that you've said before that has always stuck out to me and resonated is this path that streaming has been on where it has been growing year over year, but a lot of people, especially in recent months, have started to question how many more subscribers out there are willing to pay the full price for streaming services and even if there is growth in some of these other regions where the revenue coming in is only a fraction of what it currently is now, what does that growth necessarily look like? So I hear that there's two camps there. Some people are skeptical about the future, but others are looking at smartphone adoption and just the way that things are trending as an indicator of where things are going. But how do you view the opportunity and especially streaming's growth from here on out.  [00:44:55] Matt Pincus: Okay. So I think there's a couple of different things there. You know, one is just on-demand streaming and what the growth curve looks like for on-demand stream. I think the broader question is what does overall growth look like for music consumption going forward? And I'm not sure those are totally the same thing. So, you know, listen, Spotify's done an epic job growing that business. It's a difficult business from just the word go, you know, you're relying on content licenses, you're inherently undifferentiated. Like on paper, it looks like this is impossible. And yet they build an unbelievable business out of it. And I really, you know, sort of think it's worth, you know, whatever opinions people have about streaming, to take a step back and realize that the people who did this originally, you know, Larry Jackson and Apple Music, the people who did it originally did a really fucking tremendous job of making it work. It will mature. There's some debate over whether it may have already started to mature in some distinct ways in Western, you know, sort of developed economies and even maybe in some of the larger sort of secondary territories. The really interesting places that we used to see at Songs in our own data are high population, low discretionary income countries, Indonesia, Philippines, a lot of the African continent. I'm not sure it's necessarily in all of those places going to be an on-demand streaming function that, you know, ultimately wins the day. There are people fucking with a model in a bunch of different ways over mobile. Boomplay in Africa is doing a buyout model. You know, it can be woven with other kinds of entertainment in a bundle in a bunch of different ways. So the question of where on-demand streaming goes, it is a little bit like anyone's guess, but there are different opinions between reasonable people about how the growth curve looks. You know, one of the things that I really love about the web three thing, and I think it's in the early days of really grinding the gears to figure out what actually works, 'cause like this sort of, you know, sucking on the laughing gas tank and you know, watching your crypto go up or over now. So it's entering into like a moment where people actually like have to figure out how it works. But the thing that I think is true is that it's unlocked a premium, that people are willing to pay over the cost of consuming music permanently. How big that premium is, we'll see. I think it was overinflated and inorganic in some of the early times of crypto, not a lot, humans are doing it and they're doing it for high ticket prices, you know, but if you look at some of the stuff, for example, that's going on in Asia, where people are throwing money at artists they like just because they want to you know, people paying sort of eye of the beholder price to be associated with an artist that they feel strongly about, that they love early in their career. Like, that's not going away. So whether, you know, the subscription fatigue is a reality, whether effective penny rates, times units of consumption are going up, flattening, going down. You know, we'll see. I mean, the Goldman Sachs people think they're going to go up forever. I'm not sure I totally agree with that. But what is true is that the willingness of people to invest in artists they love is increasing. And I don't think that's going back to zero, so it may not be, you know, that subgrowth continues on forever and on-demand streaming, but it may be that there are other ways that people can figure out how to engage with artists that keep the value, you know, exchange going up. Now, the one thing about streaming that's interesting is that, you know, the TikTok thing, in ways that people, like, talk shit about it all the time, whatever, but the thing that's interesting is that it did introduce frequency back into the equation. And one of the things about music that's unique is that you need to hear a song a number of times before you like it. Like at first you're like, I hate that. And then you hear it like five times and you're like, maybe I want to hear it again. And then by like, whatever end time you hear it, you're like, I can't get it out of my head. I got to hear it. It's like, Barry Weiss used to call it a record finding its bottom, where it would kind of come out and people would spin it, and then it would drop and then at some level would start to rise again. That's a function of promotion. That's a function of frequency. And in the early YouTube time and on-demand streaming time, you didn't really have that. Like, the people couldn't make something frequently play. And the AV platforms, not only TikTok, but also Snap and Instagram changed that equation and that music needs that. The thing that I'm wondering where it will happen, where it will come back into the equation though, is the music press, which has largely disappeared. And so I'm looking for who, on a consumer level there, people like yourself covering the business, part of it, that are doing an extraordinary job, but who sort of tells people what's good, gets it in front of them, filters it and what does that look like? It's probably not printed on a page. It's probably, it's sort of associated, I think in some way with what's going on with the NFT world, you know, with getting people to buy in, getting a community of people bought to projects, but it's still that same mechanism of filtering. And so I'm wondering where that's one of my thesis areas that I have my on. Where's the next one of those?  [00:50:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think this is a role that, of course, MTV and so many other places own and were able to do so well decades ago. And now the commonality I've always referred back to is that TikTok in many ways is the new MTV, but it's more so in the broader sense of just the cultural appeal, but not in that solo aspect of yes, if you want to know what this group of people are pushing, or what is the thing that's in, this is the place to go to find that. And I think it's very tough, the way that things are right now, just with how fragmented things are. But people are always going to want to feel like they're part of what's in or feel like they know what's in that desire also isn't going away. So I think there were always be a space for this, no matter how fragmented. [00:50:53] Matt Pincus: And people don't always know what they like. I mean, who knew that all these people love Kate Bush?  [00:50:58] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:50:58] Matt Pincus: We all understand why. She's amazing. Song's amazing, but people don't always know what they like until somebody shows it to them and repeats it. And then all of a sudden they can't get it out of their head. And that's the magic of music. So how that happens, you know, the cool kids like it up from the bottom, you know, like to be selective, know about the stuff first. The general audience likes to hear things multiple times and then, you know, be addicted to it. And I think that those things will reinvent themselves in a bunch of different ways going forward.  [00:51:27] Dan Runcie: For sure, Matt, before we let you go, do you have one big prediction for us on where you may see things in the next five years or one thing that you think will change from where music is right now to where things will be come 2027? [00:51:40] Matt Pincus: Well, I think as I touched on before, I think younger and younger people are going to be making music that the world reacts. And that is going to be miraculous when it happens. And not necessarily in like a sort of criss-cross Whip / Nae Nae type of way, but in a real, like expressing the core thoughts and feelings they have and getting them out there in a way that sounds good to the world. I think that's going to happen in a bunch of different ways. I think the way that repertoire moves across the planet is going to be revolutionary in the next five years. If there's one thing that's really going to change, you know, it used to be that sort of music went west to east and technology went east to west. Now, I think that's all scrambled eggs right now. If you look at stuff, like, you know, some of the music that's coming out of West Africa right now and how it gets into the global culture. It's not like in a, you know, used to be like you had like a world music business. Like, that's ripped up and thrown away. And so I think, you know, the way that the in-country community relates to the diaspora community in around the globe is going to be really different. You know, I think if there's one thing I have my eye on, it's sort of how all that stuff travels. And obviously, there's some obvious examples like BTS. But I think this is going to happen anywhere and everywhere. And one of the things that I heard somebody say the other day that I felt was really interesting is that the music business thinks about countries in its marketing. You know, they've Europe and Asia and Australia, Canada, US. It should be cities because music is about scenes and it's going to travel that way. And so your Amsterdam strategy is going to be different from your Seoul strategy is going to be different from your São Paulo strategy. And so if there's one like broad thing, I think we're going to look at the way that music travels around the planet in a completely different way.  [00:53:37] Dan Runcie: That's spot on. Look at the way we think about music here in the US. That should be an indication of how it should be looked at elsewhere, right? We know what Atlanta hip-hop sounds like compared to what you may hear in LA or even the New Orleans bounce sound. Like, it's so different place to place. So you look at a country like Nigeria, which is soon going to eclipse the US in population. What you may hear in Lagos would be completely different from other parts of the country. So that's a really great point.  [00:54:05] Matt Pincus: Yeah. So that would be like, if I, you know, sort of, if I had to obsess about something, it would be that.  [00:54:10] Dan Runcie: And I think a lot of people listening probably will too. This is a good one. I think that you got a bunch of notes for people to jot down. So Matt, thank you for making the time for this. This is fun. Thanks for coming on.  [00:54:21] Matt Pincus: Thank you so much. I just really appreciate your thinking to me. And it's a pleasure to talk to you about all this stuff. [00:54:27] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. This week, I’m running back an interview with one of the most popular episodes we ever did with Matt Pincus from 2022. 


Matt Pincus is without question one of the most successful entrepreneurs in the music industry. He sold his independent music publishing company, SONGS, for $160 million five years ago. And now, the music holdings company he co-founded, MUSIC, just raised $200 million to invest in music and music-adjacent companies. 


Though, Matt doesn’t see MUSIC as an investment fund, but rather a holding company. That’s because he’s taking an operator role in the companies he funds. And unlike the splashy catalog acquisitions that’ve dominated the space over the past few years, Matt is looking forward with his investments and targeting brand-new growth opportunities instead.


In particular, Matt sees big opportunities in the technology sector, web3, and even record labels and publishing. At SONGS, Matt was able to spot and develop up-and-coming songwriters, inking early deals with the likes of Diplo, Lorde, and The Weeknd. He’ll be tasked with finding similar success at MUSIC.  


Matt and I dove deep into a wide-range of topics during our conversation. Here’s a few highlights of what we covered:


[2:47] Why Matt created MUSIC

[7:19] MUSIC’s investment thesis?

[13:22] What Matt doesn’t like about the music business 

[19:36] Recent inflow of capital into the music business

[20:54] Two lanes to entering music business

[24:08] Finding left-of-center opportunities among musical talent 

[27:30] The structural problem of the music business

[30:44] Continuity was key to SONGS success

[35:59] The Weeknd as a business blueprint for other artists

[36:53] Sync business opportunities 

[43:46] Have streaming subscriptions peaked?

[48:12] Tiktok brought back music frequency

[51:13] Matt’s five-year predictions



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Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Matt Pincus, @mpinc


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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Matt Pincus: Defensibility in the music business is not a patent or a technology or some special recipe you have someplace. It's your understanding of music, the people that make it, and then your ability to develop relationships with people around the business and to keep your reputation such that people want to be with you. But the real key in, at least in the music technology side of it is you need to be able to spin the technology yourself and understand really how it works. 

[00:00:37] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 

[00:00:56] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is with one of the most successful music entrepreneurs of the past few decades. His name is Matt Pincus and he is the founder and CEO of MUSIC, which is a holding company that invests in music tech and music-adjacent companies. MUSIC just launched a 200 million fund to invest in this space, so Matt and I talked all about it. He's looking for companies that still have a clear understanding for how music gets made and understand the art behind it. He's also looking for startups that have a true defensible moat that is something unique that they can do. And he's also looking for the companies that have a huge total addressable market that can clearly grow and expand as we're seeing things continue to grow in this space. Our conversation covered a bunch of topics in this space. We talked about sync and the impact of that. We also talked about how much further streaming can go. And we talked about a bunch of insightful music trends. Really fascinating conversation. I feel like every few months we have one of those conversations where people reach out to me and say, Hey, I took a bunch of notes in that conversation. Thank you for this. And I have a good feeling, I have a good feeling that this is going to be one of those conversations. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Matt Pincus. 

[00:02:16] Dan Runcie: All right. Today, we're joined by Matt Pincus, who is the founder of MUSIC, which is a holding company that invested music and music-adjacent companies. Matt, I'm really excited to have this conversation because you have had a very impressive career with what you did with Songs and everything that you had done in publishing specifically. And what always stuck out to me about you in this space is how you've identified opportunities where others didn't see them. So I know when I saw the announcement for MUSIC and the $200 million fund you launched, I said, okay, he's seeing something and he's seeing an opportunity to dive in. So what did you see? What made you want to get involved with this?

[00:02:58] Matt Pincus: Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm a big admirer of Trapital and your work in general. And I'm really happy to be with you here today. So, you know, I started music, it was sort of an organic process. I sold Songs after running it for about 13 years. And it was a fairly abrupt end. So we decided to sell the company and neither me nor my two partners really wanted to run it for somebody else. So we decided that once we sold it, it was time to step away and it was fairly quick. So, you know, I ran the company for 12-plus years. And then 90 days after the sale, I was out in the street, like, what am I going to do with my life? So it was a bit of an organic process. It started with meeting a lot of really interesting founders of music businesses and companies that were around the music business. It's obviously an interesting time in our business in a number of different ways. The streaming market has matured. There are a lot of music tech businesses with interesting founders cropping up over the past four or five years. The web three crypto business has, you know, started the early days of really coming online. And the way that labels, publishing companies, management companies reach audiences is really different than it was like, you know, six, seven years ago. So I met a lot of really interesting people. The first one was Steve Martocci, who was the founder of Splice. He and I hit it off particularly well. And I sort of said, listen, I've been, you know, doing talent deals with young people, you know, in the early twenties for the past 12 years, I think maybe the next chapter is working with founders of companies that are more like 10 years younger than me, as opposed to, you know, 20, early 20s. And taking the experience that I had in the last, like, four or five years of songs when we were trying to figure out how to really realize returns on the business and build on that to try to help people do the same thing. So I was out looking for, you know, are there interesting companies that I might be able to work with in some way or another? And the answer to that quickly became kind of yes, on the music tech side originally, in growth companies, when online music and music technology was shifting to a subscription-based backbone as opposed to a packet software business. And then also on the music side of it, you know, interesting independent labels, music companies operating in a different way. And so the first thing was, are there interesting companies out there? The second is, do they need capital and where would they get it from? And the third was, how am I going to get the money to invest in these businesses? So it was kind of a bit of a bootstrapping exercise where I would go find an opportunity to invest in a company, put some of my own money in LionTree, which sold songs for me and has been a partner and champion of mine since I sold the company, would invest some money too, and then we'd find some other people to round out the investment. We did that first with Splice, put about 20 million into the company over a period of time. We also did in the same way, made an investment in a company called HIFI, which is a FinTech platform benefiting artists in a bunch of different ways, and also with DICE, the ticketing business. And you know, they started, a couple of them did well and actually, they all did well. And so I decided that I wanted to raise some capital and have my own sort of, it's not really a fund. It's more of a holding company 'cause I'm less of an investor and more of an operator. And so the question became, how are we going to raise the money? Now Aryeh Bourkoff who runs LionTree is somewhat of a magic maker, and he took me on and introduced me to two families, the Schusterman Family and JS Capital, which is Jonathan Soros's capital vehicle. And they agreed to invest in a four-way partnership. So it's between me, LionTree, Schusterman Family, and JS Capital. And we formed MUSIC, which is a $200 million holding company. We do deals in a couple of different areas, music tech, which is sort of where I spent most of my time after Songs. We also invest in independent music companies like Songs. So labels publishing companies, management companies. Increasingly, a few of those functions are in one company, as opposed to when I was running Songs, it was like you were either a publisher or a label or a management company. And then we partner sometimes with a larger private equity firm if we are interested in acquiring something that's, you know, of a larger size. And so we're in the middle of one of those right now. And so we were able to find a bunch of interesting opportunity, a bunch of interesting ways, and it seems to me to be, you know, a really good time to be putting money to work in the music business. 

[00:07:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's an exciting time to be investing in these companies and to be acquiring them too. And you mentioned something there about the types of companies you're looking at and whether they are modern music companies or whether they are doing something that's unique in the space. Can you talk a little bit more about your investment thesis and what you're looking for, and specifically, because, as you mentioned, you're not a fund, you're a holding company, so you're not necessarily just doing, you know, angel investments or early stage. You're trying to make investments for the long haul. So how does that shape your strategy?

[00:08:07] Matt Pincus: Very good question. And I think the answer to that depends somewhat on the different areas of investment. So the first is in the technology side of the business, which is kind of where I started as an investor. So, you look for a couple of things there. So first of all, you need to invest in companies, not products. So some of the music startups can be sort of, it's an interesting widget, but can it be a scalable business? So you need to make sure that you have a couple of things in order to know that you're investing in a company that has the ability to grow. So the first thing is you need your own tech stack and it needs to be built to suit whatever market you want to be in. So for example, with Splice, one of the reasons, and there were several, but one of the reasons I invested in the company was because Steve had built this subscription stack from day one of the company. So it was a native SaaS company in a world where the rest of the market needed to move from the old way of doing business to the new way of doing business. Splice was always in the new way of doing business, so it was going to be ahead of the curve. And so you need to make sure that your technical capabilities and your technical assets are going to, you know, be where you want to go. The second is that you need to make sure you're in a part of the market that has a big enough user base to make a real company out of it. You know, it's great to make a widget that, you know, 1500 people love, love, love, but 1500 people is not a lot of people. So you need to make sure that the addressable market around the business has a lot of users. And again, in Splice's case, you know, they are the content business in music tech. So they can be used in an infinite amount of applications across the business, which gives them, you know, a really solid user base. And so, you know, that's kind of the second thing. And the third thing is that you need to kind of own where you live or have the ability to own where you live. So, you know, it's great if you get into a category in the technology side of the business, that, you know, breaks some ground and shows everybody what can be done. But if then, you know, Apple or Google just says, thank you very much and does it instead of you, it's not so great. So you need to have a defensible business that you can build and scale. And again, back to Splice, you know, they are the content leader and I'm a music publisher by trade, so content is the water supply in the music business. You know, in publishing, it's the song that starts the whole conversation. Splice owns music. And so no matter where the market is going to grow, no matter where it ends up going, they have the supply that feeds the music tech business. And so it's inherently defensible when it gets up to a certain level. You know, at this point they have 3 million works in their database. To catch up to them is, you know, difficult, if not impossible. And so you need to be defensible now on the music side of what I do, which is investing in music companies, there's a couple of things I look for. So first of all, I don't do catalog acquisitions. I invest in people. So the first thing is that you need to have really talented executives that understand music and know how to find repertoire and make it bigger. I tend to like businesses that give advances to artists. There's a certain way, like at Songs, we built a catalog over a long period of time, but we built it through signing young writers and giving them advances. So I call it a mattress out of sheets. If you do that one after another, over many, many years and you do it well, all of a sudden you wake up, you know, 7 to 10, 12 years later, and you're like, holy shit, it's a big catalog. And so I tend to like businesses that advance money to artists and build catalog that way or manage catalog that way. There's a certain magic to understanding how to compensate artists and doing it fairly. So I tend to look at that. You know, the music business has changed a lot. It used to be that if you wanted to be an independent, you needed to own your own vertical. And you know, at Songs, we had our global administration business that we owned and built. We had our own technology. So we were self-contained, standalone competitor. Now I think, you know, solutions have become available everywhere. There's a lot of good publishing administration, a lot of good record distribution solutions. There's a lot of off-the-shelf stuff you can get. It's really about music. It's really about understanding artists and the music that they make and connecting them with an audience. So I look for people who uniquely understand that. Now that can be, you know, somebody who has a geographical lock on a particular kind of music. It can be somebody that has a particularly unique understanding of how the studio works because I think if there's one big change in the music publishing business lately, it's that it's gone really back to the studio. And the interesting companies are actually making songs in real-time in a studio environment. So it can be that. It can be that you have another business that you do and music is associated with it. So why not, you know, get into the music business while you're doing whatever else you do, but you need to have some reason why you have access to a particular group of artists in a particular kind of repertoire, and you're helpful to that in some way or another. And so it's quite a different set of things that I look for on that side than on the technology side. 

[00:13:34] Dan Runcie: And with the way that your firm is structured, too, I see parallels with the types of companies you're looking at, right? You're not just focused on one particular type of investment area. You have the music tech companies that you're looking at. Splice is an example. You also have the companies that are working more directly in music itself, whether that is giving advances or companies that have a unique edge on who they're reaching. And I think that translates as well when you're talking about the types of companies you're looking at because a lot of times, especially 10, 15 years ago, as you mentioned, there were more silos and now you're starting to see companies have different types of roles that they do or different divisions to try to be this nebulous term that I've heard several times as broader entertainment company. And while I think that that's effective, I could also see how that could challenge some of the challenges of being able to have a business that is defensible or having a moat and the focus that comes with that. So how do you balance that and what are the things that you look for when evaluating companies that are both trying to do it all, but also are trying to have something that they can be defensible with? 

[00:14:40] Matt Pincus: Well, so on the music side of it, you know, it's about relationships. You know, the good companies, their equity is their relationships with different people around the business. And it's really a human-centric business. So, you know, defensibility often is correlated with reputation in the independent music business, at least. That was certainly true of Songs. One of the big success factors of the company and in fact, like, kind of our asset was that me and Ron and Carianne had really good relationships around the business that we built over many years, and that allowed us to punch above our weight class. You know, when we were a very small business, you know, we acted as a bigger business because we were able to get champions that helped us along the way, both in terms of the artists that were willing to sign with us, but also in terms of, you know, other people around the business that took us on and helped us out. Oddly enough defensibility in the music business is not a patent or a technology or some special recipe you have someplace. It's your understanding of music, the people that make it, and then your ability to develop relationships with people around the business and to keep your reputation such that people want to be with you. You know, on the tech side of it, it's a little bit different. You have to make sure that your innovation curve is constantly there. You have to make sure, like, I would not invest in a business that did not have a technical co-founder. You know, ideas are great. Everybody's got ideas. You know, there's an app for anything. But the real key in, at least in the music technology side of it is you need to be able to spin the technology yourself and understand really how it works, which when you get into the crypto side of it's really interesting 'cause a lot of people understand the implications of it, but they have no idea how the shit works. They don't actually use it. And they get kind of confused thinking that it's much more complicated than in fact it really is. Or, you know, they get so fascinated with the technology that they don't make a product that stands on its own bottom and has value to the end user. So it's a little bit different in the different areas of the market that you look at. And one of the reasons why I like the field that I play on and I feel very lucky to be able to do the different things that I can do with music is because some of it is about sort of analytical, scalable technology-oriented investments. And some of it is just about people in tunes. And so you're kind of mixing a lot of different things together. You know, the one thing that I don't like so much about the recent music business is somehow we all slipped into talking about music as assets and fractional finance and cash flows and securitization. And I'm like, listen, if I wanted to do all that shit, I do it not here. You know, the music business is not assets and finance and cash flows and, you know, securitization. The music business is moving people, motivating people, creating an audience, assembling humans to want what you make, and distributing that and delivering it and all the rest of that stuff. You know, the fact like, listen, what I'm doing is either really smart or really dumb because either you can make a real investment business just out of the music business. And I think you can because there's lots of different types of investments in music and there's lots of growth and lots of possibility. But also, you know, it's a pretty small business. And I live in, play, you know, a neighborhood, the size of a postage stamp. We'll see if they can be done, but I think originally, you know, it starts with the creative and it starts with the means of delivering the creative to the people that want it. And then all of the rest of this stuff, you know, yield, debt payments, multiples on equity, bonds, all the rest of this stuff just is a happy accident that comes from doing your job well.

[00:18:35] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you mentioned this because there's a version of what you do that could easily look more like a traditional private equity firm, where they are just going in and doing all of the things that you just mentioned and they're coming more from that perspective, but in many ways, your defense is having this laser focus on music, but you're going deep within all of the areas that it encompasses. And with that, I have to assume that this also maybe has a bit of a flavor on what your take is about the money that has come into the music industry and some of those other non-music companies or those that are purely looking at it for the financial opportunity or for the noncorrelated opportunities and how that in a lot of ways, even though on paper, someone that's fundraising may see the money they can get from you versus the money they get from others. But I'm hearing it from the record labels. And especially the independent ones they're getting reached out to all the time now about acquisitions. And a lot of those calls are coming from non-music related companies that are trying to make those moves. So it's been fascinating to see how that shapes, but I do feel like you are going about this in a much more unique way than a lot of them are.

[00:19:49] Matt Pincus: Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. I will say that the recent, like, huge inflow of capital into the music business has one very good byproduct, which is it's giving a lot of money to songwriters and artists. Some of these catalogs getting valued at 20 times, 30 times, you know, NPS where they would've been valued at 10, you know, four or five years ago, maybe 10 years ago. It just results in people that make great music, making a bunch of bucks. And there's nothing at all wrong with that. On the catalog side of it, it makes a little bit more sense that some of these like larger capital vehicles are coming into the market and, you know, bidding things up and structuring the leverage in a certain way that makes sense. There's a big difference between what's going on now and what was going on when this first happened, like in 2006, 2007 timeframe because the people that are doing it now can afford it. They've got lots and lots of money. They don't need big returns on that money. They have the ability to structure this stuff financially in ways that don't make no sense. And so it makes, you know, more sense that people are doing that with the IP catalog acquisition business. When it gets to new music, you know, I think it's still a human business. I think you got to know the people, you know, and you have to understand how it's really about managing what I refer to as the working capital of the business. So, you know, you need to advance money, you need to collect that money, you need to reinvest the money. And so a lot of that, you know, it's not a big enough business that you can structure it like a bunch of bonds. You need to kind of understand the market that you're in, how many deals you could possibly get, and what about you ought to pay for them, and what kind of infrastructure you need to address all of that to do a good job. And that's hard to know from outside of the business. It's even hard to know, like there's sort of two lanes in the music business. There's people who came up through the building where they started at majors and they kind of built their career, you know, up from coordinator to director to senior director to VPs, SVP, EVP. And then they end up running the company, a lot of great people who came up that way. And then there's people who kind of feed in the wild. Like, come outside of the building and need to figure out, like, what's available. And there's some real differences, you know. Sometimes they cross over like Ron Perry who was an instrumental person at Songs from, you know, the very beginning to through time we sold and now runs Columbia. So sometimes that happens. Or Carianne who, you know, also was my partner at Songs who now runs Warner Chappell with Guy Moot. It's like there, you know, it happens, but there are really two lanes. And I think in the independent side, it's a lot about systematic A&R so about looking at, listen, none of us are overfunded with tons of money. So, you know, everybody's stretching the dough. And it becomes about how can I build this system in the world that I live that can do deals inexpensively, and then find the ones that are working and invest and push them forward. And all the great independent music companies, you know, Chrysalis, Jive Zomba, A&M Rondor, all the great ones throughout history sort of did that really effectively or were usually like the other ones. So everybody goes to the majors to get their offer. And then there's these other cooler guys that are there, like, you know, kind of fucking with the majors by picking off all the left to center stuff that was us at Songs. You know, and all those other companies I just mentioned were kind of some version of that. But there's kind of, all of these mechanics that come both from history, so understanding the history of the business, but also understanding the people and how they sort of work 'cause as much as the world is changing and it's changing a lot, it's still kind of about A&R. It's still about creative in some way or another. I mean, Carianne's superpower, which she's got many, but the original superpower was understanding not only what works well to picture, but the people that choose music in film and television, advertisements, video games, she's particularly uniquely talented at that. And that's still a core skill that people need to understand. So, you know, I'm the guy that kind of pulls the pieces together. I don't do any of those things. I, you know, originally hired some great people and now I try to invest in great people that do all that stuff, but it's still about understanding it and if you're coming purely from the outside, I think it's challenging.

[00:24:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think your career experience speaks a lot to this, right? You mentioned being able to find the left-of-center opportunities when you're at Songs, whether it was Lorde or The Weeknd. And you saw how those turned out. It worked out brilliantly. I'm curious to hear what you think about the way things are right now because, especially with the way that TikTok is and so many of the companies, whether it's the major labels or the independents, they all have access to the same information. So the cost of acquiring and being able to find and develop those same artists is much more expensive. So what do you think those left-of-center opportunities look like today in the current environment where it feels as if there are more and more outlets to find different types of people, but the way that people are going about it, it does seem like a lot of people are now playing a pretty similar game.

[00:25:13] Matt Pincus: You mean like a moneyball...

[00:25:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah. 

[00:25:15] Matt Pincus: ...type of, yeah. So, you know, again, I go back to like, there's sort of in the building and there's outside of the building way of thinking. So in the major system, it makes logical sense that they want to sort of hang back, see what reacts, and go and get it when it reacts, the more predictable something is the more you're willing to pay for it. That makes logical sense. There's nothing wrong with it. They're not idiots for doing that. It's just the way that they traditionally operate. And now it's about, like, seeing the shiny pennies and then grabbing them right away, whatever the cost, because music is much more efficient than it used to be. It used to be that you'd have to, like, release a whole album and sink a bunch of capital into seeing if something works. Now you can kind of tell pretty quickly if something's going to work. So it makes sense to pay a lot for something predictable, as opposed to, you know, paying a little bit for stuff that is wildly uncertain. So, you know, that makes total sense. I think on the independent side, and I really count in that like A&R mentality, like people who are finding artists and developing artists. So it's not just like, you know, independent labels, but it's also like, you know, Electric Feel is a really interesting company that does this, Hallwood. You know, APG is obviously the really great example of this, of finding artists really early and developing them into something or representing people who do that. A lot of, you know, that is about iteration and about understanding, you know, what makes a good story in a particular market. Now, part of that is the music itself. Part of that, most of it is the music itself, but part of that is also all the other stuff around it. You know, how you unfold the narrative, how you stage market entry for an artist. You know, all of those things, again, I come back to the stick to your knitting thing where it's like, as much as the world changes, it kind of remains the same to some degree. So, you know, the interesting and frustrating thing about the music business for people that run companies like I did at Songs is that there's just not that many good, really good, talented people, you know. If there's one structural problem in the music business is there's not enough, really good A&R people, promotion people, you know, creative people. 

[00:27:29] Dan Runcie: And why do you think that is?

[00:27:30] Matt Pincus: I think it's hard, for one, I think it's hard. And as much as people try to play moneyball, now I'm a big believer in systematic A&R, which some people would consider, you know, moneyball. So in other words, like having a funnel that gives you a group of things that might work, that I'm a big believer in that as a starting point, but that only gets you like 51% confidence. That's not much more than a coin toss. The rest of it is really doing the work of developing the product itself, the music itself, and then the story around it. And it's just a hard business, plus you got to know everybody, you know. So it takes a while to develop those relationships and those skills. One of the things that's interesting when I look on the music tech side of it that I think is one of the great things is that the technological development in music production is allowing people to learn how to use the gear quicker. So you're going to have hit singles coming from 13-year-olds within no time at all. And that used to not be possible because it would take you four or five, six years just to learn how to twist the knobs on a board. Like, it was hard. Now with like, you know, presets, with things like Splice, with AI-assisted creation, you know, anything that makes it easier for an artist to get what's inside of them out, the learning curve is becoming less steep. And that's a good thing because talent shines in that environment. You know, it's one thing to be able to, you know, have a knowledge-base to tweak things. It's another thing to just be a talented and expressive artist with urgency. And so maybe some of that will happen. And on the executive side, like on the A&R side, as things like radio, you know, radio's been so monolithic and so hard to penetrate. And now maybe it's loosening up a little bit, but it still takes a while to figure out what's going to work. It's very hard. And it is one thing to be a fan and be like, this is good, this is not good. It's another thing to take a look at something that doesn't yet exist and be like, this is what it will look like if we can pull it off. I don't have that talent, you know. I'm not an A&R person, but I watch people do it and it's pretty miraculous. And it's not just A&R, it's also promotion, which is an undervalued piece of the equation and increasingly, marketing, digital marketing, like the first cut of it was just, you know, sort of advertising on Facebook. Now it's much more sophisticated than that. And so I feel like it's just hard and I wish there were, you know, there's also the part of the problem in the music business is nobody trains anybody. There's no HR infrastructure. You know, I went to Columbia Business School and I had been in the music business. I didn't have one single meeting about a job that came through the school. 

[00:30:14] Dan Runcie: I'm not surprised. That wasn't the case for me either. 

[00:30:17] Matt Pincus:  That’s what I'm saying like, nobody trained you. I mean, I remember going on a job interview when I was like 21 coming right out of college or 23 coming right out of college with a guy at ICM. And he said, what do you want to do? I said, I want to be an A&R .He said, great, find a band. That was it. That was the interview. And so it's like, it's that kind of business, which is kind of wonderful in its own way, but it doesn't train people really. And so that's also part of the reason. We don't develop our talent, executive talent pipeline in a really great way.  And that's why people like, you know, Mike Caren at APG is so special. You know, the LVRN guys are so special because they bring along executives in a really concerted kind of way. And I wish there was more of that in the business in general. 

[00:30:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's a huge opportunity for it. And I think you see a lot of it play out when there are executive shake ups and who gets picked for certain things and why people get picked for certain things. And to some extent, you see this in other places too, whether there's a mix of internal hires versus external. But one thing that I have noticed is the units that do tend to stick together, or there is some continuity there. You do see a lot of success happen if they understand what works, everyone's into it. And I think some of these other places where it could be a bit of revolving doors with who's in leadership, who's trying to get where it's very tough to have that infrastructure. 

[00:31:35] Matt Pincus: And that was one of the great blessings for me at Songs, which is not, doesn't speak well for the industry, particularly, but, you know, Ron and Carianne were two of the most talented people of their generation for sure. And the business didn't know what to do with them. The fact that I could get the two of them and we could all stay together for 12 years and build a company is like a miracle. And that was a big part of the reason why it all worked is because we knew each other really well and people knew us as a unit. We had different things we did. It's a little bit like, you know, kind of what's going on with the professional sports a little bit too, is, you know, it's great that all these individual players are celebrities. And again, great that athletes are making more money, but great teams don't stay together in the same way that they did before. And I think that's changing a little bit now because you don't have to do a deal with a major and get your money the traditional way in order to build a company. And that's one of the reasons I exist as MUSIC, is because there's opportunities to bring outside capital into the business under terms that look a little bit more like sort of venture capital or private equity, which is in a way more fair than the traditional music business has been on a per transaction basis. There's natural reasons why the major music companies finance the music business for as many decades as they did, and it's not to rip people off, it's because nobody else would do it. But now it's a different world and so hopefully some of these things will change. You know, when you have really great entrepreneurs that own their own business, as opposed to, you know, in some JV with a major that's really a compensation agreement, then it's in their interest, like it was in mine when I was running Songs, to bring along really talented people and find new ones. And so that's one of the things that I've sort of hoped for in some way. 

[00:33:24] Dan Runcie: Are there any artists that stick out to you as examples of yes, they're building their business and they're doing this the way that could be a blueprint for what we'll see more frequently moving forward?

[00:33:34] Matt Pincus: Ones that I talk about all the time is The Weeknd, which we were involved with, you know, from fairly early on. And Sal who's, you know, has been his manager for a very long time, and Cash. You know, I think you're going to see what they did with XO happening in a lot of different ways going forward, where you get a group of people that form a partner and distribute responsibilities between artist, manager. You know, there's people like La Mar Taylor involved with those guys that does all the visual. There's a lot of cooks that need to be in the kitchen to make something really successfully work. The label model of sign to a label, they'll do everything that existed in, like, the nineties is way long gone. Even management where you sort of have somebody who's a commission person that's just doing the business of an artist, that's not true of the good ones anymore. The good ones get in it with the artist and really help them build an entrepreneurial life. I mean, to be an artist now, you need to, like, be like a 140-character joke writer. You need to be an accountant. You need to have a corporate entity. You need to deal with all these different vendors. And you need to be like, you know, P. T. Barnum, like, step right up, step right up, check this out, you're going to love it. It's a complex skill set. And so I think one of the things that you're going to see in the talent representation business, like the management business is I think you're going to see more entity partnership formation, where people are going to go into partnership together. Managers and artists will be like Sal, Sal and Abel have been together for, how long now? Like, I mean...

[00:35:08] Dan Runcie: It's at least a decade, right?

[00:35:09] Matt Pincus: Yeah. And they've been able to scale and grow and make a lot of money and still be together. And that's because everyone provides value. I'm sure they adjust their relationship, however, over time, I don't know. But I think you're going to see that approach because it takes a village in a way to make really durable stuff. I mean, if you're talking about a viral hit that's here today, gone today. That's one thing. But if you're talking about really building a franchise over a period of time, it requires a lot of work from a lot of people. So I think you'll see sort of, you know, entity formation with partners that include business people and artists in with interest aligned. You know, Diplo's another one. I mean, you know, TMWRK and Diplo have been together for again, going back to since I started working with them. So that was 2011, you know? You look at firms like CRUSH, Jonathan, Daniel has built franchise after franchise of artists that stay with him forever. And he works with him as a partner and that's why it works. So I think you're going to see more of that going forward and and I think that's a good thing.

[00:36:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. The Weeknd's a very good example because even from the origins of his career, you could see the mentality of where he saw things. Drake famously offered him the opportunity to come on OVO Sound. They had the whole Toronto connection, Drake put him onto that blog post and everything, but then he was like, no, I don't want to be under another artist when I think I can be just as big as that artist, even bigger and do my own thing and look what he's been able to do now. So I think a lot of it...

[00:36:41] Matt Pincus: And by the way, the record deal is a distribution deal. 

[00:36:43] Dan Runcie: Right. 

[00:36:44] Matt Pincus: You know, I mean, there you go. And so in terms of distribution of value, you know, if you can do it, if you're smart enough to have a cool head and plan like those guys did, you know, you can have a much larger enterprise than you normally would. So I hold them up as an example of, you know, what I think is going to happen and is happening really in lots of different areas of the business now.

[00:37:07] Dan Runcie: One of the other areas that has gotten a bunch of attention right now has been syncs, and this has been growing, I think, especially given what we've seen with people, especially from outside the music industry, trying to get more involved, but especially this past summer with Kate Bush being featured in Stranger Things. This conversation has been happening more and more. This is another example where it's a mix of that art and science of what does finding a good sync looks like and what happens with it. And I think so much of it, there's maybe a little bit of luck with just how the internet works and how things take off, but there's also a good amount of work that's put into finding the right type of placement for the right type of artists that could make all those things work to make it happen. So how do you view the opportunities for sync right now? 

[00:37:53] Matt Pincus: You know, it's interesting. I was sort of a student of Carianne. She taught me the sync business. I literally remember she had a binder where she kept every single interaction she ever had around a song and a placement. And she not only showed me how it all worked, but then we made a software platform out of her own process of how she did it. So I was trained by the best. One of the interesting things about sync is how it always comes back in cycles. You know, when we started Songs, it was like 2004, sync was the whole game. Like, between 2006 and sort of 2009 timeframe, it was the most important thing in a pitch. You know, it was responsible for a lot of our really early successes. And then when it became a largely pop business there in the early days of streaming, it was like sort of radio and super reactive and viral repertoire. It sort of stepped to the background for a minute. And now with the way that kids are bouncing around on a playlist from like, you know, Taylor to like a hip-hop track to, you know, Kate Bush back to Metallica and they don't care. It's become all of a sudden, perhaps one of the top, most important ways repertoire gets discovered now. It's amazing the enduring power of synchronization over time. The thing about sync that I think is interesting is part of it is selection. Like, is this song going to work to picture? But there's a lot that goes into making the deal happen. I mean, that Kate Bush deal as my understanding, I was not involved, but my understanding from, like, just hearing about it was that it took 'em forever to get the clearance done. So a lot of it is not only just is this going to work the picture? Is it the right BPM, the right mood, you know, the right tonality, the right cultural notes, which is a very special thing that music supervisors are particularly good at, but it's also the real politic of like getting the fucking thing cleared. And one of the things that I look at, I tend to have thesis sort of areas when I look at investing in the music business, and one of them is just how fuck the sync business is. That, you know, there should be a buy it now button in the music business if you want to use something for your film, buy it now. And if it was easy, people would pay more. But the problem is they have to roll around a glass to clear a copyright, getting the same deal with 13 songwriters and the master side and it's horribly inefficient. So I think part of the interesting thing with sync in the next generation is how do we do right by the music by making it more usable. Because there's also a couple of different ways this sync business cuts. So, you know, you have stuff that's used in a more traditional sense, and that has a real, like the standard pairing of like, it matter, it makes a huge creative difference and it's very hand selected. Front title and title, you know, big placement in a film television advertisement, but then you have this huge blanket sync business where a lot of the new promotion platform are AV platforms. It's technically synchronization, TikTok, YouTube, you know, Instagram it's technically sync. And I would argue that if there's one element of the business that gives radio a run for its money, it's AV platforms because what happens is people use it in so many videos that you end up hearing the song a thousand times, however many times it takes for you to be like, oh, my God, I have to hear it again. That's really the only place it happens and that's sync. There's a couple of different ways it cuts. You know, the great, like, placements of all time, and we had quite a few of them at Songs that sort of are like, you know, really make a song and make a film. Those are works of art. But also a lot of handling everything else is like maybe 50, 50 at best creative to handling. And so a lot of it is understanding, having those relationships, understanding how to price things, understanding how to clear repertoire, getting permission from the artist to do it. There's a lot of process that goes into it.

[00:41:49] Dan Runcie: Is there a sync from your days that song that you look back on that you were like, yeah, that's the one. It took some work, but looking back that's the one. 

[00:41:56] Matt Pincus: Wow. That's really, that be would a really better question for Carianne than for me. In terms of like the stuff that really made a difference to us as a business, one of the things that I think was meaningful was when Lorde did the Hunger Games soundtrack in the follow-up movie. That gave us a really good look at how music can be a content element in overall entertainment. The Weeknd did a similar thing with Black Panther where, so it was those sort of tie-in, you know, big-ticket where our music was woven into the substance of the film or the ad in some cases. That I think are really the special moments. Those are two that pop out. There's always like the random one where you have a relatively smaller artist and you get them a sync and, you know, it changes their life. It gives 'em more money than they ever thought was possible. There's also the ones, we had an artist who had a very high level of ethic and I won't name the artist, but independent artist, good earnings, but not a pop artist. And we got a $90,000 ad and for very good ethical reasons, he said, fuck, no, it's not going to happen, not going to approve it. And as much as I was like, it was to do early days of the company, it would've made a huge difference to write 90 grand into my books in a quarter. There's some beauty in the level of control that artists have over their own work in the music business that they don't in a lot of other media that I was like, you know what good for him, I guess we're saying no. There's this artisanal component to it that's really special.

[00:43:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Being able to have that power and knowing when it isn't right. I've heard similar things as well from other podcasters I'll talk to when they get pitched with certain deals and stuff, and they'll be like, you know what, that's just not a product I'm willing to do, or that's just not an endorsement I'm willing to have. And it could have been a game changer for them and their business and everything. But I think we're going to see more of this with creators as they just are leveraging their own independence and being able to make their own decisions. 

[00:43:59] Matt Pincus: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:44:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah.

[00:44:00] Matt Pincus: Exactly. 

[00:44:01] Dan Runcie: I want to close this conversation out talking about streaming 'cause I know this is a topic that you've shared a number of insights on over the years. And one of the things that you've said before that has always stuck out to me and resonated is this path that streaming has been on where it has been growing year over year, but a lot of people, especially in recent months, have started to question how many more subscribers out there are willing to pay the full price for streaming services and even if there is growth in some of these other regions where the revenue coming in is only a fraction of what it currently is now, what does that growth necessarily look like? So I hear that there's two camps there. Some people are skeptical about the future, but others are looking at smartphone adoption and just the way that things are trending as an indicator of where things are going. But how do you view the opportunity and especially streaming's growth from here on out. 

[00:44:55] Matt Pincus: Okay. So I think there's a couple of different things there. You know, one is just on-demand streaming and what the growth curve looks like for on-demand stream. I think the broader question is what does overall growth look like for music consumption going forward? And I'm not sure those are totally the same thing. So, you know, listen, Spotify's done an epic job growing that business. It's a difficult business from just the word go, you know, you're relying on content licenses, you're inherently undifferentiated. Like on paper, it looks like this is impossible. And yet they build an unbelievable business out of it. And I really, you know, sort of think it's worth, you know, whatever opinions people have about streaming, to take a step back and realize that the people who did this originally, you know, Larry Jackson and Apple Music, the people who did it originally did a really fucking tremendous job of making it work. It will mature. There's some debate over whether it may have already started to mature in some distinct ways in Western, you know, sort of developed economies and even maybe in some of the larger sort of secondary territories. The really interesting places that we used to see at Songs in our own data are high population, low discretionary income countries, Indonesia, Philippines, a lot of the African continent. I'm not sure it's necessarily in all of those places going to be an on-demand streaming function that, you know, ultimately wins the day. There are people fucking with a model in a bunch of different ways over mobile. Boomplay in Africa is doing a buyout model. You know, it can be woven with other kinds of entertainment in a bundle in a bunch of different ways. So the question of where on-demand streaming goes, it is a little bit like anyone's guess, but there are different opinions between reasonable people about how the growth curve looks. You know, one of the things that I really love about the web three thing, and I think it's in the early days of really grinding the gears to figure out what actually works, 'cause like this sort of, you know, sucking on the laughing gas tank and you know, watching your crypto go up or over now. So it's entering into like a moment where people actually like have to figure out how it works. But the thing that I think is true is that it's unlocked a premium, that people are willing to pay over the cost of consuming music permanently. How big that premium is, we'll see. I think it was overinflated and inorganic in some of the early times of crypto, not a lot, humans are doing it and they're doing it for high ticket prices, you know, but if you look at some of the stuff, for example, that's going on in Asia, where people are throwing money at artists they like just because they want to you know, people paying sort of eye of the beholder price to be associated with an artist that they feel strongly about, that they love early in their career. Like, that's not going away. So whether, you know, the subscription fatigue is a reality, whether effective penny rates, times units of consumption are going up, flattening, going down. You know, we'll see. I mean, the Goldman Sachs people think they're going to go up forever. I'm not sure I totally agree with that. But what is true is that the willingness of people to invest in artists they love is increasing. And I don't think that's going back to zero, so it may not be, you know, that subgrowth continues on forever and on-demand streaming, but it may be that there are other ways that people can figure out how to engage with artists that keep the value, you know, exchange going up. Now, the one thing about streaming that's interesting is that, you know, the TikTok thing, in ways that people, like, talk shit about it all the time, whatever, but the thing that's interesting is that it did introduce frequency back into the equation. And one of the things about music that's unique is that you need to hear a song a number of times before you like it. Like at first you're like, I hate that. And then you hear it like five times and you're like, maybe I want to hear it again. And then by like, whatever end time you hear it, you're like, I can't get it out of my head. I got to hear it. It's like, Barry Weiss used to call it a record finding its bottom, where it would kind of come out and people would spin it, and then it would drop and then at some level would start to rise again. That's a function of promotion. That's a function of frequency. And in the early YouTube time and on-demand streaming time, you didn't really have that. Like, the people couldn't make something frequently play. And the AV platforms, not only TikTok, but also Snap and Instagram changed that equation and that music needs that. The thing that I'm wondering where it will happen, where it will come back into the equation though, is the music press, which has largely disappeared. And so I'm looking for who, on a consumer level there, people like yourself covering the business, part of it, that are doing an extraordinary job, but who sort of tells people what's good, gets it in front of them, filters it and what does that look like? It's probably not printed on a page. It's probably, it's sort of associated, I think in some way with what's going on with the NFT world, you know, with getting people to buy in, getting a community of people bought to projects, but it's still that same mechanism of filtering. And so I'm wondering where that's one of my thesis areas that I have my on. Where's the next one of those? 

[00:50:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think this is a role that, of course, MTV and so many other places own and were able to do so well decades ago. And now the commonality I've always referred back to is that TikTok in many ways is the new MTV, but it's more so in the broader sense of just the cultural appeal, but not in that solo aspect of yes, if you want to know what this group of people are pushing, or what is the thing that's in, this is the place to go to find that. And I think it's very tough, the way that things are right now, just with how fragmented things are. But people are always going to want to feel like they're part of what's in or feel like they know what's in that desire also isn't going away. So I think there were always be a space for this, no matter how fragmented.

[00:50:53] Matt Pincus: And people don't always know what they like. I mean, who knew that all these people love Kate Bush? 

[00:50:58] Dan Runcie: Right. 

[00:50:58] Matt Pincus: We all understand why. She's amazing. Song's amazing, but people don't always know what they like until somebody shows it to them and repeats it. And then all of a sudden they can't get it out of their head. And that's the magic of music. So how that happens, you know, the cool kids like it up from the bottom, you know, like to be selective, know about the stuff first. The general audience likes to hear things multiple times and then, you know, be addicted to it. And I think that those things will reinvent themselves in a bunch of different ways going forward. 

[00:51:27] Dan Runcie: For sure, Matt, before we let you go, do you have one big prediction for us on where you may see things in the next five years or one thing that you think will change from where music is right now to where things will be come 2027?

[00:51:40] Matt Pincus: Well, I think as I touched on before, I think younger and younger people are going to be making music that the world reacts. And that is going to be miraculous when it happens. And not necessarily in like a sort of criss-cross Whip / Nae Nae type of way, but in a real, like expressing the core thoughts and feelings they have and getting them out there in a way that sounds good to the world. I think that's going to happen in a bunch of different ways. I think the way that repertoire moves across the planet is going to be revolutionary in the next five years. If there's one thing that's really going to change, you know, it used to be that sort of music went west to east and technology went east to west. Now, I think that's all scrambled eggs right now. If you look at stuff, like, you know, some of the music that's coming out of West Africa right now and how it gets into the global culture. It's not like in a, you know, used to be like you had like a world music business. Like, that's ripped up and thrown away. And so I think, you know, the way that the in-country community relates to the diaspora community in around the globe is going to be really different. You know, I think if there's one thing I have my eye on, it's sort of how all that stuff travels. And obviously, there's some obvious examples like BTS. But I think this is going to happen anywhere and everywhere. And one of the things that I heard somebody say the other day that I felt was really interesting is that the music business thinks about countries in its marketing. You know, they've Europe and Asia and Australia, Canada, US. It should be cities because music is about scenes and it's going to travel that way. And so your Amsterdam strategy is going to be different from your Seoul strategy is going to be different from your São Paulo strategy. And so if there's one like broad thing, I think we're going to look at the way that music travels around the planet in a completely different way. 

[00:53:37] Dan Runcie: That's spot on. Look at the way we think about music here in the US. That should be an indication of how it should be looked at elsewhere, right? We know what Atlanta hip-hop sounds like compared to what you may hear in LA or even the New Orleans bounce sound. Like, it's so different place to place. So you look at a country like Nigeria, which is soon going to eclipse the US in population. What you may hear in Lagos would be completely different from other parts of the country. So that's a really great point. 

[00:54:05] Matt Pincus: Yeah. So that would be like, if I, you know, sort of, if I had to obsess about something, it would be that. 

[00:54:10] Dan Runcie: And I think a lot of people listening probably will too. This is a good one. I think that you got a bunch of notes for people to jot down. So Matt, thank you for making the time for this. This is fun. Thanks for coming on. 

[00:54:21] Matt Pincus: Thank you so much. I just really appreciate your thinking to me. And it's a pleasure to talk to you about all this stuff.

[00:54:27] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.



]]> 3301 no The Business Behind Coachella (with Tati Cirisano) https://www.trapital.com/podcast The first weekend of Coachella is here: Bad Bunny, BLACKPINK, and Frank Ocean will headline for 2023. Coachella is expected to gross well over $100 million with over 100,000+ attendees per day. In this episode, broke it all down withMIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano. Coachella started in 1999 as a niche festival for indie rock and quickly morphed into the biggest brand-name festival in the United States. These days, the Coachella brand is big enough to sell the experience itself, regardless of who’s performing — a rarity in the festival business.   Tati and I discuss why that is, the implications, and what the future of Coachella could hold. Here’s what we hit on: [1:20] Coachella’s brand sells itself [2:19] Festival’s origin story [7:09] Advantages and disadvantages of performing at Coachella [9:09] Success by the numbers [11:28] Coachella bump for brands, influencers, and local economy [16:38] Untapped opportunities for future Coachellas [22:02] How individual music show prices influence festival attendance [24:22] Artists that are above playing Coachella [27:08] The festival that’s the antithesis of Coachella  [31:10] Festival lineups becoming homogeneous  [39:36] Predicting Coachella’s 2024 headliners Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Tati Cirisano, @tatianacirisano Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Tati Cirisano: Being a performer at Coachella has become almost like a badge of honor or like something that goes on your one sheet, you know what I mean? Like, it's something that like gives you leverage as an artist and also is just, I don't know, seen as like it has a certain level of prestige. Like I would compare headlining at Coachella to like, in the same way that a lot of artists would love to get like a rolling stone or a billboard cover, even if like, regardless of whether that's selling or regardless of what that does, just that as a concept has, is just something that's like on a bucket list for most artists. I feel like headlining Coachella, if you're someone who's trying to be a superstar, that's like a bucket list item too. So yeah, it's, interesting How entrenched this festival has become in the music industry when you really think about it. [00:00:43] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:01:25] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is about the business behind Coachella and the unofficial start to music festival season in 2023. Coachella's history is pretty impressive when you think about it. This festival started in 1999. It was announced the week after Woodstock 99, and the shit show that that festival. With just 60 days’ notice to then put on this festival that attracted just 25,000 people and ticket prices cost $50 each, and the headliner was Beck and the festival didn't make it money that year. Didn't even make enough to continue in 2000, and it wasn't until its partnership with Golden Voice in 2001 that it was able to get things back on track and slowly build up to the behemoth of a festival that we see today. It's an event that attracts well over a hundred thousand people per day for the six days of the festival itself. Two straight weekends and it attracts some of the biggest artists in the world. And this year they're especially making its footprint scene on the global scene. The headliners include Bad Bunny, Black Pink, Frank Ocean. There's also artists like Burna Boy, Calvin Harris, and many others that are making up this year's lineup. To break it all down, I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. We talk about what this festival does well, how it's shaped music culture overall, and its broader impact on music festival culture. Here's our breakdown. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:55] Dan Runcie: All right. Today's episode is all about festivals and the granddaddy of them all, at least in the US, Coachella. We're here to break it down with Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Tati, welcome back to the pod. [00:03:09] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, thanks for having me, excited to dive in.  [00:03:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah. One of the reasons I wanted to talk about this with you is because I feel like Coachella reminds me of some of the conversations we've had about, a lot of these platforms that they, in many ways have become the bigger brand and the destination than the actual creators on some of these platforms. And I feel like Coachella, at least from a music festival perspective, has some of that because at least in the US this is the most popular music festival. We've seen it expand over the past two decades. And while most music festivals do rely so heavily on their headliners, Coachella is one of the ones that it's still able to, in many ways, capture the same audience and just get a consistent following and culture around it. That doesn't seem like it's stood as dependent on the headliners, but they still get big headliners. So how do you think that shapes the festival and how fans themselves interact with that festival? [00:04:10] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. I mean, just to like prove out what you're saying, I think, I'm pretty sure Coachella tends to sell out or at least sell a lot of tickets before their headliners are even announced or before the lineup is announced at all. So you're totally right. I think it's become a big enough brand in itself that people are just kind of, ready to buy into it. And I think it's because Coachella has It's kind of created a culture. I remember kind of the celebrity era of Coachella when like, you know, Vanessa Hudgeons was like the queen of Coachella and you could go and run into Rihanna and Paris Hilton and like they kind of created that aesthetic of like the hippie style and all of these things. And so, when people buy a ticket, it's like they're buying into a lifestyle and a culture more so than the music itself. I think a lot of people go for that experience and to dress up and like buy into that, that lifestyle, maybe even more so than the music. and it does seem like Coachella over time, maybe because of that. The lineups have become a little bit more like crowd pleaser and mainstream to me. Like I was looking, just in preparation for this episode, like kind of looking at the history of Coachella and I didn't realize that when it started, part of what Paul Tollett wanted to do was create like a more niche festival where you would bring together like a lot of niche artists and hope that they all have big enough individual following that, you know, putting all that together. Would be enough for a festival. and it seems like the complete opposite today. In many ways like I think Coachella still sometimes tends to have like more left of center artists that line up this year is like super diverse and interesting. But it does seem like they've maybe become a little bit more mainstream over time. And maybe it is because the people are going not as much for the music as they're going for, like the vibe of it all. [00:06:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and dating back to that first festival, it's kind of crazy that this even became what it is today because it starts in 1999. They announced this festival and put tickets on sale. I think it was two months before the actual festival started, so not that much time. They announced it the same week or the week after Woodstock 99, which is just a complete shit show, which said so much about where people viewed a festival like this and their headliner was Beck. They didn't make as much money, I wanna say like 25,000 people showed. So they couldn't even have a festival in 2000. They had to wait until the next year and do the partnership with Golden Voice and make it happen. And then, yeah, fast forward to where we are today, where it is mainstream pop artists that are doing it. And what was once this niche culture of people that just really enjoyed indie rock music. It now is this mainstream thing. It almost reminds me of something like Comic-Con in that same way where it was this nerd thing with people that you know wanna do live action, role play, and Dungeons and Dragons, or dress up like Zelda. And now every mainstream celebrity is there to promote their movie. [00:07:19] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. And in the same way, you're going to dress up, you're going to like, kind of put on a costume, Coachella, it is kind of a costume for most people and like have that experience regardless of who's playing.so yeah, I totally agree. And I think the other thing, like over time Coachella has gotten to a place because of all that we're talking about, where it has such a, power on the festival market, like written into its contracts, like it has a radius clause that they get to release their lineup first. They are the first festival of the season, mid-April is like pretty early, so there's also now like I think built in ways that Coachella tends to be kind of the North Star for all of the festivals, and so it's just the one that people are going to regardless of, yeah, regardless of who's playing. [00:08:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I also feel like because it has a bit more of that brand and that audience command, regardless of who the artist is, I almost feel like it has a little bit of that Super Bowl effect where artists want to be able to perform on that stage because sure, they may bring some fans themselves, but they're likely gonna be reaching a new audience and having exposure to people that may not necessarily have tapped in general compared to, and I think Coachella is similar, but if you compare that to some of these other festivals that are so heavily reliant on that headliner themself. There's a case to be made that, okay, well if the headliner pulled those fans into the festival, then they have to then share those tickets essentially, you know, soft tickets with everyone else. How does that compare to actual hard tickets that they could have done themselves? So, I feel like there's a Coachella advantage there.  [00:09:01] Tati Cirisano: And there's also a disadvantage in that you don't get, I mean, I know that I'm pretty sure already, like the data that you get on who's in your seats at shows is pretty minimal. But when you go to a festival, you don't really know who's going to see the festival for you and you don't really know who dis how many people discovered you or how many people came to your set. It's not the same as like if you sell out an arena, you know, the number of seats that were there, you know what I mean? So that's also an interesting thing is like you are probably getting a greater audience and this artist might be the whole reason the festival is selling tickets, but nobody's actually able to quantify that. [00:09:34] Dan Runcie: Right. And I feel like for some artists too, there's almost a bit of risk mitigation that can come with doing a festival. Risk mitigation may be the wrong word, but I think that's certain artists that have a lot of buzz or may have a lot of fanfare, it may be a lot harder for them to sell hard tickets. But if they could perform in front of this large festival crowd, they get a big advance or they get a big guarantee with the, promoter and through their agent as well, they can feel much more confident performing in front of, you know, thousands of fans or maybe even tens of thousands of fans on stage, even though they may not be able to sell, you know, sell out a house of Blues for instance. [00:10:14] Tati Cirisano: Totally. Yeah. No, and it also feels like being a performer at Coachella has become almost like a badge of honor or like something that goes on your one sheet, you know what I mean? Like, it's something that like gives you leverage as an artist and also is just, I don't know, seen as like it has a certain level of prestige. Like I would compare headlining at Coachella to like, in the same way that a lot of artists would love to get like a rolling stone or a billboard cover, even if like, regardless of whether that's selling or regardless of what that does, just that as a concept has, is just something that's like on a bucket list for most artists. I feel like Coachella headlining Coachella, if you're someone who's trying to be a superstar, that's like a bucket list item too. So yeah, it's, interesting How entrenched this festival has become in the music industry when you really think about it. [00:11:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah, let's look at some of the numbers here, cuz I think that's another fascinating piece. So we don't have hard numbers for this. A lot of it is based on past things that have been shared. But in 2017, this festival grossed to 114 million. And they had around 125,000 people coming per weekend. So if you roughly do the math thing, you look at ticket sales, I feel like that's like just under $500, like per attendee that ends up coming to the festival. And we likely saw similar, maybe even greater as well, because that doesn't take into account sponsorships that doesn't take into account these brand activations and other things as well. And I know that Coachella is a festival that has taken some shit for not paying artists well, at least the artists that are further down that list, that have much smaller font size, I think it's seen as paying the headliners. Well, at least I was talking to, someone that understands the business well, and their estimates were that the headliners this year, so you have Bad Bunny, Black Pink, and Frank Ocean. Their thought was, Frank Ocean and Black Pink got 4 million per weekend, so 8 million total and that Bad Bunny likely got 5 million per weekend. So then 10 total and then I believe that Calvin Harris's name was, towards the bottom of that list, like returned to the desert, Calvin Harris, I think he got one and per weekend. And then the artists that are on let second row, like Burna Boy and a few others, I think it was around like seven 50K per weekend but then it's a steep drop off after that, right? I mean, I remember hearing from Cardi B, this was, you know, after invasion of privacy, but still before, you know, she blew up, blew up. Or maybe it was the year before that, I forget. But she talked about how she was paid 70K, but she saw it as an investment in her career as an opportunity to pull up and get more. And obviously she's someone that you know, is now getting a million dollars. Private shows where she's doing 35 minute sets, but I feel like that like plays into that. So I don't know if all of those artists are getting paid, but yeah, I think some of them are willing to take that because of the exposure.  [00:13:14] Tati Cirisano: Right. Yeah, I think you're probably right. And the number that I would love to know is like how much money that, cuz I know you, you were also talking about the boost of the local economy and that I think it was400 million, in Coachella Valley. I'm also wondering, like, even outside of that, just the whole business of it, like you mentioned the sponsorships, the influencer deals, you know, H & M having a Coachella section in their store. Like all of these things, I'm almost more fascinated by all of these kind of like satellite businesses around Coachella than the business of Coachella itself like I would love to know the total number for how much revenue this festival is just kind of generating for all these things outside of it, if that makes sense like, cuz it seems to go so far, like e every store has a festival section in March and you know that what they're really talking about is Coachella. [00:14:06] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Yeah. Like, could we look at, I'm sure they wouldn't share this, but if Forever 21 and H & M and those types of stores shared, how much more do they get from, you know, their festival and attire, whether that's, you know, the flower headdresses or whatever, you know, the crowns and the stuff that people wear or just shut general outfits as well. And then I forget the name of the brand, but there's one of those brands that I'm sure many of them do, but they pay for all the hotels that are in Palm Springs, that are in Indio in the general area, put all the influencers there, buy all the clothes for them, and then buy all their tickets and just have them work almost the same way a reporter would work the festival.  [00:14:47] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. like what is the influencer economy around Coachella specifically? Like how much money is there? I would love to know. [00:14:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I feel like, because if you count that, I wouldn't be surprised if you're over a billion, especially like just when you count the overall impact for sure.  [00:15:05] Tati Cirisano: did you happen to see the price of the first Coachella ticket? When you were doing your research,  [00:15:12] Dan Runcie: I saw this a while ago, but I forget now. How much was it?  [00:15:16] Tati Cirisano: Guess, guess,  [00:15:17] Dan Runcie: oh, guess. Okay. I'm gonna guess it's like $75. [00:15:20] Tati Cirisano: It was $50 [00:15:22] Dan Runcie: Oh, wow.  [00:15:23] Tati Cirisano: Was and this year's was $550 and that's before, so  [00:15:28] Dan Runcie: Wow. Wow. What a come up 50 bucks to see all those artists and then only 20 other 25,000 other people there.  Wow, that's something crazy. Yeah. I mean, so 10X there, everything's grown. And then even just the expansion, right? Because I think it was around like 2007 or so that they first went to multi-day, then they went to multiple weekends. Yeah [00:15:51] Tati Cirisano: I wouldn't be shocked if they added a third. I think anything more than a third weekend would be kind of overkill and maybe wouldn't be special anymore, but I actually would not be shocked if they made it a three weekend thing.  [00:16:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah,  [00:16:02] Tati Cirisano: One of these days.  [00:16:04] Dan Runcie: I feel like it, because if you look at the opportunity, we can talk about this now, but if you look at the livestream play that's been happening, they've only been expanding that. So this was the first year that. So YouTube has been partnering to livestream this show since 2011, I believe, but this is the first year that all six stages are now gonna have a dedicated stream. And I think the pattern that we've seen now is you have a artist like Beyonce, she obviously gets the full recording of her show. She then sells that to Netflix for 20 million dollars or however much that deal is, and then she ends up monetizing that. I assume that there's likely some compensation or some participation that Coachella and more broadly golden voice get from that piece of it. But what could the stepped up livestream look like further. I mean, I've watched it in past years and it's nice, but could there ever be a Super Bowl level production that goes into at least some particular part of these artists sets? Because they're clearly putting more and more into it as it does become a big stage and you do have a little bit more flexibility of Yeah, it's not a 13 minute set, it's a hour long thing and the higher the production value, the more fans are gonna wanna see it, the more YouTube can get more ad dollars for it and the more goes to Coachella too. [00:17:26] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, I think there's definitely an opportunity for that and not just higher production quality of filming the show, but also when you mentioned the Super Bowl, like having like commentators and doing interviews and there's like know what I mean like there's like a halftime like conversation. I could see there being like hosts and like interviewing fans and things like that. I feel like that's probably happened at festivals before. before. I haven't watched that many festival live streams but I'm trying to remember, like Glastonbury's was really good, this past year and it was everywhere like, because they did such a good job with the live stream. There were clips on every social media app I looked at. It was all over the news. Like it really became this cultural moment.so I think, yeah, I think there's definitely an opportunity to like have a higher quality live stream that people will pay for. I also think on the other end of things, I wonder how much more. Like UGC Live streams will come into play. I was thinking about this because, bill Wordy, who's the former, billboard, like editor-in-chief, he has a newsletter, you probably know, what is it  called? Full Write No Cap  [00:18:28] Dan Runcie: Full Rate, No cap.  [00:18:30] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, he spoke recently, or he wrote recently about how so many Taylor Swift fans are live streaming the entire. concert for the Eras tour on TikTok and on YouTube and getting tips for it. And these streams are like pretty low quality and they're often like from the nosebleeds and you can't even see Taylor, but they're getting like thousands of viewers and people are paying them to do it, and he kind of suggested, like what could the opportunity be here, whether that's artists partnering with TikTok to livestream it or what I think is more interesting maybe is like partnering with creators to do this. If they're already doing it, why not create an infrastructure around it? But then I also don't wanna advocate for like, everybody to be at the show live streaming the entire show and like have their phones in their faces and like I know artists hate that. I know fans hate that, I hate that. So it's an interesting question and I don't know exactly how it would look, but I feel like UGC live streams could come into play like on the opposite end of these, like more high production shows or live streams.  [00:19:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think so too because you, of course, there's always gonna be something for the high production quality camera that you see, and even that I still do believe is under monetized to a lot of extent. I mean, we don't have public numbers, but I could just assume based on what you see from sports and other rights. But the UGC thing is huge because I just feel like you could have some unique angle. You're getting the experience yourself. I'd love to know like what those tipping numbers do look like. But yeah, I think it's huge because while a tour. I think there may feel like a less scarce aspect for that, and just in the fact that, yeah, you know, Taylor is only doing this once, but she's doing roughly 50 shows, right? But there's only gonna be two of these times that, at least right now, that Frank Ocean is gonna be doing this headline set and it's, you know, when we release this podcast, it'll be right in this timeframe but like that's it. Like there's scarcity around that people wanna see that they're gonna wanna go back and watch it time and time again. So I think there's something there. I feel like we start to see some of this where, I'm sure you've seen it. Artists are starting to record one of the shows from their concert and then have that as something that you could watch on Amazon or something you can watch on HBO Max or Hulu. So we're seeing some of that, but I still feel like there's an opportunity to get more fan, like even if you get fan views in there and get them, have some type of participation from when the doc ends up getting sold or whatever that is. I feel like there's a few interesting ways to do it. [00:21:04] Tati Cirisano: I mean, I even think about like YouTube reaction videos and how like that's such a huge space of people. For all sorts of things, like listening to the new Taylor Swift album and live reacting, and people watched that and I could see a similar thing at a festival like live reaction to the Frank Ocean Set. And then afterwards you're like telling everyone what you thought. Like again, I don't wanna advocate for more phones at shows, but I feel like people are already doing this and so maybe it's a question of like how to support it and make it a better experience. I don't know. [00:21:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it'll be interesting to explore. I feel like the other unique thing about Coachella, we can talk a bit about pricing. You mentioned itself the price is 10X'd in 24 years since the first Coachella. But as this festival becomes more expensive as touring itself, especially to see these headliner type artists becomes more expensive. You talked a lot about, or you mentioned how does that impact the actual experience and how does that impact what fans may wanna do? Like how do they justify buying separate tickets to see just one artist versus being able to see multiple ones in a festival? What are your thoughts on that? [00:22:13] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, I mean, I think there's multiple factors kind of pushing toward festivals. Being a kind of solution for a lot of fans today. One is, as I've, you know, shouted from the rooftops in so many of our conversations, like listenership is really fragmenting and people tend to listen to way a wider spread of artists today, making it kind of hard to have a mainstream or a superstar, or harder to have a superstar. And they're also focusing more on songs often than artists. and then on top of that, costs for pretty much everything are skyrocketing. So yeah, if you're someone who listens to a wide range of artists and you're more likely to be, to kind of center your fandom around songs than artists themselves, and you also are not maybe able to afford going to five different shows anymore, why would you not rather go to see a festival? And not that festivals aren't expensive, cuz their enormously expensive, especially when you factor in travel and the outfits like we've talked about and all of these things. But I just given all the trends with, listenership that we're seeing, I feel like festivals will become even more popular for consumers. [00:23:23] Dan Runcie: I also think some of this may shift genre by genre, and to some extent I do look at it. A bit bittersweet to some extent because I look at festivals like, let's look at two of them rolling Loud and this Lovers and Friends Festival that I know had been canceled and I know they, had recently had one rolling loud, of course, is primarily rappers and hip hop artists, lovers and friends is more of that R and B that I think that a lot of millennials and even some,younger Gen X folks grew up with. Because those festivals exist in that same way. It's great to be able to bring those artists together. I do wonder though, has that dynamic hurt any of those artists impact to be able to generate not just real fans that may definitely wanna see them by buying hard tickets, but how does that help them grow the fan base in a way that doesn't make them just reliant on doing, rolling loud and then just getting an upfront check to do that as opposed to the long-term gains that could come from. Okay, yeah, you may not be performing for as big of an audience relative to your social following, but what could that build up to down the road? And I think even for some of these legacy artists that are doing lovers and friends fest, I remember I was talking with someone, about this recently and they were like, yeah, you know, as much as you like lovers and friends fest like t hose artists are the more indirect way, seeing them all the way they do now.  [00:24:48] Tati Cirisano: Right, like the festival makes a lot of like on paper, logical sense for consumers, but does it make sense for fandom? Like is it actually helping artists nurture fan bases or is it just feeding more into what I was saying about, you know, a lot of people just kind of listening to songs and not artists So yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense and a lot of these artists that are playing. Those smaller, more niche festivals are playing a ton of them. And if it's like Megan Thee Stallion is playing at 10 different festivals, why are you going to buy a ticket to her tour? Like, I think it could kind of cannibalize some of those sales or like diminish people's interests in, going to the tour as well, or maybe they go and they're like, oh my God, Megan was incredible during her shorter set. I want to go see her on tour like, I don't know, maybe it, goes both ways, but I do think that we might see more and more of those smaller and more niche festivals for all of the reasons that I've mentioned. Like I think we've seen more and more, there's so many nostalgia festivals now there's so many, like speaking to a very specific scene, like, I forget what it's called, but there was one that was almost like, it was kind of like emo night, but as a festival, like I think we're, I think we're probably gonna see even more of that, and those are gonna be the ones that don't cost you, you know, two grand to go to Coachella.  and it's maybe a little bit more accessible. so yeah, I think, I think we're probably gonna see more of those type of niche ones. [00:26:14] Dan Runcie: Do you think that there's certain artists that don't need Coachella? I know we talked about how it's beneficial for headliners, but I thought a lot about the weekend doing Coachella last year, and he was a late edition, Travis Scott was supposed to be the headliner, but after Astroworld and the tragedy there, he didn't do it the weekend does it? The weekend already had this tour planned. He did that tour in Southern California, he had still performed at SoFi Stadium later on that year. I don't know how the radius and the timeframe works out there, but I'm sure there must have been enough time there. But I wonder if, okay, beyond the $8 million, we could assume that he got from that. I mean, that's roughly what he would make from one of these stadium rougnights that he would do on his own tour. Did that benefit him in the same way? I don't know. I mean, I think I can clearly see the benefit for Black Pink or even Bad Buddy and others where, hey, this is a statement. You're here on one of the biggest stages we have in the US and you aren't from this country and you don't live here. There's a big, influence that that can have, but does it make sense for the weekend, right? I know that people have often talked about when would Taylor Swift do it, and whether that's talking about the Super Bowl or even Coachella, but even if we just talk about Coachella even if you paid Taylor 10 million dollars or 12 million dollars, is that going to be more beneficial for her when she can sell out football stadiums herself doing her own thing? So [00:27:47] Tati Cirisano: Right. It's been more important for Coachella than it is for Taylor Swift. to be at Coachella, I guess. [00:27:54] Dan Runcie: I would think so, because I mean, on one hand, yes, we know Coachella is gonna sell out regardless, but they could get more of those fans that may do participate in other, you know, economic, you know, aspects of the festival. [00:28:08] Tati Cirisano: Totally. Yeah. And they have more control over things and everything. Yeah, I think, you're right, for an artist like The Weeknd or Taylor Swift, it's probably more about like checking off that bucket list item or like having that prestige of performing at Coachella than it is like a material benefit. I think you're probably right to question that, but then you're right. for an artist like Black Pink, it means a lot more and is probably a lot more impactful in terms of like revenue and fan building and things like that. [00:28:35] Dan Runcie: Another topic you brought up about festivals right before we had started recording, you're talking about a festival you had went to recently in Knoxville, Tennessee, and it was spread out across different music venues in the city itself. And you also said you're done with festivals on festival grounds. So can you talk a little bit about that? Cuz I think that could be interesting to dig into a bit. [00:29:01] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, it was perfect timing to do this episode because I went to the antithesis of Coachella last weekend, which is, a festival called Big Ears in Knoxville, Tennessee it was a 10 year anniversary of this festival and in terms of the types of performers there, it was a lot of kind of like experimental and independent and folk music, instrumental artists, like Sun Ra Arkestra was one of the performers. I also, my favorite performer was a rock band from Niger called Atron Delea, like it was all these kind of like from all over artists and so that was one part of it that was cool. It was very niche and it was very much a scene, kind of like I'm talking about having these like more niche scene oriented festivals and it was held across the venues in Knoxville, of which there are like, 10 or 15, and they're all about a 10 minute walk from each other. And they also had performances in movie theaters and in cathedrals and in these sort of like non-traditional spaces and. It was just such a more enjoyable experience to me than being locked in a pen in like a parking lot and like, you know, having to pay $10 for water and like feeling very Lord of the Flies for 12 hours like, it was such a better experience and it also struck me how much it could be, you know, a big thing for the venues in that area. It's a big thing for the community and for the culture of the city, like, I don't think you could like turn Coachella into a festival, like across the venues in LA or like New York or something like, I don't think it would work for something at that scale, but it did make me think that, there could be more of, I think, and I'm sure that there are, I'm sure others exist, but that there could be more of these types of festivals that are a bit smaller, a bit more niche, and are held in a city. And you're also bringing the music to consumers rather than people having to travel to someplace like LA like just having these festivals in smaller cities. I just think there's a big opportunity there and also just to innovate the festival experience in general. Like, why do we have to be, you know, in a parking lot and, you know, all that kind of stuff. There's been better. Innovations in like, like I know the food at festivals has gotten a lot better over time. It used to be like frozen pizza was like your only option, and now there's like crazy food tents. But yeah, it just got me thinking about like how to innovate the festival experience and what the future of things looks like. [00:31:23] Dan Runcie: That's a good point because it makes me think of the film festival variety that we see where there's different vibes, but a lot of it is based in existing venues, and it does bring a bit more traffic in general activity to that area, but it's a bit of a different experience, right? Whether it's, you know, Tribeca or even here in San Francisco or in Sundance, I mean you could also get a little bit of a different vibe too, where, okay, if you wanna go skiing in Park City, then you can go to Sundance in January, right? If you want to go on the French Riviera afterward, you can go to Cannes like there's so many different vibes, but I feel like in general, when people think of music festivals, it is wearing that Coachella outfit and being somewhere in an open field with not a lot of shade and, you know, like that type of thing. So I feel like it couldn't then, yeah, it could just bring a little bit more variety to some of these things. And the fact that it already exists is good, but it could probably bring a bit more, you know, boom, to some of these other areas that may want something unique and ideally, if they're not overlapping on headliners, which is another thing that I know is an ongoing challenge with these festivals. I feel like when Outkast did their whole festival run where I forgot how many they did in 2014, that was the first year that stuck out to me where I was like, oh, some of these artists are just going boom, boom, boom. Same festival. Same festival. So you have that some artists that would do it in the same years, but then you also have some artists that will just come back and do the same festival time and time again, and it really isn't that much different. What are your thoughts on that?  [00:33:02] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. I wanna say one more thing about the big years thing, really quick before that question, which is, how that kind of festival could expand the audience, like the tam of festival goers like I would say about half of the people at Big Year's were 55 plus, these are not people that are going to Coachella, you know, like, I mean, maybe they are, but I, I think there's other demographics and other age groups that would enjoy going to a festival if there was a bit of a different experience. So I feel like there's a lot of groups that were not hitting with the traditional festival market. and like this venue model could be kind of like that. but yeah, in terms of festival lineups getting a lot more homogenous, I kind of can't help but attribute it to the fragmentation trend that we've been talking about and how much harder it is to create a new mainstream superstar today. Like, y eah, I think that a lot of festivals are finding it harder and harder to find these kind of crowd pleasingheadline acts and there aren't as many new ones coming up. And it also seems like, festivals are kind of continuing to dip into these legacy acts from times when the industry was less congested and less fragmented like the Glastonbury lineup, it's Yeah, Arctic Monkeys, Elton John and Guns N' Roses. And it's like this could be the lineup a decade ago. So it does feel like not only are festival lineups becoming more homogenous, but a lot of them are tending to book legacy acts rather than newer, mainstream stars. Maybe because there aren't as many newer mainstream stars, I don't know. [00:34:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that, that headline spot is probably where some of, I don't even wanna say contention, but some of that decision making can lie in, maybe a lot of this applies to festivals that aren't like Coachella a bit because they are a bit more reliant on the headliners themselves, and because of that, they're more likely to make, what they feel is safer picks and unfortunately, a lot of these safer picks end up being more male, more white, and more legacy acts that have likely been there before. So if they're like, okay, well we knew that Arctic Monkeys were, you know, huge in 2012, then let's bring them back in so we can try to command some of that same audience that is like, well, you also have local stars and others around the world that don't fit into those same categories that could do it. But they feel like that's a risk, unfortunately, and then if they do invite those folks, it's for less money and their name is smaller and they're not presented as a headliner in the same way. So I think that's one of the downsides of it. And the fact, I think fragmentation plays into this, cuz I think, you know, regardless of who you are, it has just become even harder to have artists break out. The artists that do break out, they're more likely to maybe break out within their particular region. It's harder to have that same global appeal in that same way and I think we've seen maybe a few outlier examples of that more recently. Especially when you look at Coachella's lineup this year with Burna Boy and Black Pink and Bad Bunny all having prominent placement in their festival. I'm curious what that looks like in future years. How do you maintain that? Because even from that perspective, yeah, there's other artists that are huge, but they've already kind of gotten some of the biggest ones that we've at least had at this particular moment. But there's others. I'm curious. I forget if Dual Lipa has headlined one of the big, huge festivals in the world, I don't think she has yet, right? [00:36:41] Tati Cirisano: That's a good question. She hasn't headlined Coachella, she definitely had a big set at Glastonbury, but I don't know if she headlined. I don't know.  [00:36:48] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. I feel like that may have been a few years ago, but I forget if that was like before or after,  [00:36:53] Tati Cirisano: Oh yeah.  [00:36:53] Dan Runcie: of Nostalgia tour and then after that, just thinking of other artists that have gotten huge in the past recent years, whether you have Billy Eilish or SZA, I mean, there's a few but. I'd be interested to see whether or not those names have become headliners, maybe we're seeing some of these festivals do this now, where outside Lasnier, which is, you know, right here in my backyard of San Francisco, their most recent poster. Instead of having three headliners, one per day, they have 10 artists that have big font size names, and then they have the other 60 or 70 that all have, you know, smaller, but it's all kind of the same. And, you know, you just look at the names of these artists. I'll just say right now for outside Lasnier, Kendrick Lamar, Foo Fighters, Odessa, Lana Del Ray, the 1975, Megan Thee Stallion, Zed, Janelle Monáe, Maggie Rogers, and Fisher. and I mean, I'm, I'm not shy to be mean, I'm not trying to call anyone out, but there's certain artists on that I just mentioned there that would not headline outside lands if it was presented as, oh, these are the three headliners. And they may not even be on that second row either, but. Is that in some way reflective of where things are, where it may make it easier, and of course you could probably guess based on the order of those names, Kendrick Lamar's name is at the top, you know, of this list. But still like, is this some type of reflection of this fragmentation where you have all these different genres, most of these artists, more modern, current artists, except for, you know, Foo Fighters, a bit more legacy that has continued to play on but I wonder how often we'll see that with other festivals that are maybe closer to outside lands and Coachella where, you know, still a major huge festival, but they're not getting the same headliners that Coachella is. [00:38:42] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. No, I think, you're absolutely right and I think we're gonna see that type of lineup more, at the same time as we're seeing that, there are fewer of these like Beyonce level mainstream stars, we're seeing a growth in the middle tier. We're seeing a lot more of these like, cult stars and also artists on that list who are huge but aren't really at the level of, you know, some of like Madonna or you know, these artists of the past, these icons of the past. So I think it makes more sense rather than having, you know, three headliners to have like six, not as huge artists still have a really big following. I think that makes a lot more sense, for the festival, the people going, and I think we will start to see more of that just because of the way that fragmentation is playing out. Yeah. I also wonder, when we're gonna start to see like the millennial version of legacy artists start to perform, like, was funny when I saw like the lovers and friends line up, I was like, oh my God. when you start getting an nostalgia festival marketed to you, that's when you know you're getting old. That's when you know you're no longer like the youngest And like, I wonder, when we'll start to maybe tap into like 90s and 2000s era. Sort of icons, like I would love to see like Missy Elliot headline, Coachella, like that type of thing. And I wonder if that's gonna be like the next step once we've exhausted all the times that like Foo Fighters can possibly headline a festival  [00:40:09] Dan Runcie: I know, right? Like  [00:40:10] Tati Cirisano: Who are also that era but, you know, what I mean, like.  [00:40:13] Dan Runcie: For sure. For sure. Yeah, because I feel like we saw. Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg were headliners maybe around 10 years ago, and then they had brought, the Tupac hologram out infamously. You remember that? So, we did have that. And of course, you know, that kind of reminds me of the Super Bowl that, from a couple years ago. But I do feel like there's a sweet spot there, given. Where Usher is right now, the popularity of his residency, I wouldn't be surprised if he jumps back on this circuit and he's doing less of the lovers and friends and he's doing more of the headlining major music festivals  [00:40:49] Tati Cirisano: He would be amazing.  [00:40:50] Dan Runcie: There's a huge opportunity there. Yeah. Great performer. I think he still does great stuff. I wanted to see if I can go make it to Vegas to go catch this, residency before it ends. But yeah, I I think that there is a sweet spot there for that. I mean, you think about other artists, I think Justin Timberlake has probably done some of these already, so we've seen him do them. I don't know if Britney Spears would probably perform in that same way. But we'll see. I feel like there's a number of artists that they can tap into from that era. [00:41:18] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.  [00:41:21] Dan Runcie: And yeah. I guess before we wrap things up, are there any predictions you have then for let's predict what 2024 would look like? Three headliners. Who would you think would most likely be a headliner for Coachella 2024?  [00:41:37] Tati Cirisano: I would say SZA, probably, I would say Dua Lipa I think she makes a lot of sense as a headliner too, just in terms of like how, I hate like, I don't wanna say like crowd pleasing or mainstream, but like, cause I feel like that sounds like I'm giving her shade and I'm not. I think she's incredibly talented, but like she would please a, a big swath of people with her music and she's a cool performer and she has some time now, I think, since she's not touring. but, okay. So Du Lipa, SZA, This is about to be an all female headliners. This is a bit of wishful thinking, but I would love to see, cause I don't know if she's ready for this yet, but I would love to see Rosalia, headline Coachella. I think she's getting there and I actually saw her in 2019 at Coachella. She was playing the tiniest stage ever and she treated it like she was in a stadium. Like the production quality and the dancers and just like everything she put into it was incredible. And she's risen a lot over the past few years. So, yeah, that's my trio. [00:42:35] Dan Runcie: Nice. Nice. All right. We have one in common. We have SZA, so I'm gonna go SZA, Madonna, and Usher. I think that's gonna be my prediction, I feel like, Madonna has this tour coming up. Maybe she'll cap things off with a Coachella performance. But I feel like yeah, if you're gonna have this tour, I forget the name of it, you're gonna go back through all her eras. I feel like there's something unique there, so, so,  yeah. I know, I know. And we'll have to revisit this. We still have a number of festival lineups to get announced this year, so we'll have to check back in and see how do these continue to develop, what continues to shape in how these festivals continue to evolve over time. So tati, this was great. Thanks for coming on. [00:43:17] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, Thanks for having me. Oh, it's a pleasure. [00:43:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. [00:43:20] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 13 Apr 2023 09:00:00 -0000 The Business Behind Coachella (with Tati Cirisano) full Dan Runcie The first weekend of Coachella is here: Bad Bunny, BLACKPINK, and Frank Ocean will headline for 2023. Coachella is expected to gross well over $100 million with over 100,000+ attendees per day. In this episode, broke it all down withMIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano. Coachella started in 1999 as a niche festival for indie rock and quickly morphed into the biggest brand-name festival in the United States. These days, the Coachella brand is big enough to sell the experience itself, regardless of who’s performing — a rarity in the festival business.   Tati and I discuss why that is, the implications, and what the future of Coachella could hold. Here’s what we hit on: [1:20] Coachella’s brand sells itself [2:19] Festival’s origin story [7:09] Advantages and disadvantages of performing at Coachella [9:09] Success by the numbers [11:28] Coachella bump for brands, influencers, and local economy [16:38] Untapped opportunities for future Coachellas [22:02] How individual music show prices influence festival attendance [24:22] Artists that are above playing Coachella [27:08] The festival that’s the antithesis of Coachella  [31:10] Festival lineups becoming homogeneous  [39:36] Predicting Coachella’s 2024 headliners Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Tati Cirisano, @tatianacirisano Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Tati Cirisano: Being a performer at Coachella has become almost like a badge of honor or like something that goes on your one sheet, you know what I mean? Like, it's something that like gives you leverage as an artist and also is just, I don't know, seen as like it has a certain level of prestige. Like I would compare headlining at Coachella to like, in the same way that a lot of artists would love to get like a rolling stone or a billboard cover, even if like, regardless of whether that's selling or regardless of what that does, just that as a concept has, is just something that's like on a bucket list for most artists. I feel like headlining Coachella, if you're someone who's trying to be a superstar, that's like a bucket list item too. So yeah, it's, interesting How entrenched this festival has become in the music industry when you really think about it. [00:00:43] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:01:25] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is about the business behind Coachella and the unofficial start to music festival season in 2023. Coachella's history is pretty impressive when you think about it. This festival started in 1999. It was announced the week after Woodstock 99, and the shit show that that festival. With just 60 days’ notice to then put on this festival that attracted just 25,000 people and ticket prices cost $50 each, and the headliner was Beck and the festival didn't make it money that year. Didn't even make enough to continue in 2000, and it wasn't until its partnership with Golden Voice in 2001 that it was able to get things back on track and slowly build up to the behemoth of a festival that we see today. It's an event that attracts well over a hundred thousand people per day for the six days of the festival itself. Two straight weekends and it attracts some of the biggest artists in the world. And this year they're especially making its footprint scene on the global scene. The headliners include Bad Bunny, Black Pink, Frank Ocean. There's also artists like Burna Boy, Calvin Harris, and many others that are making up this year's lineup. To break it all down, I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. We talk about what this festival does well, how it's shaped music culture overall, and its broader impact on music festival culture. Here's our breakdown. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:55] Dan Runcie: All right. Today's episode is all about festivals and the granddaddy of them all, at least in the US, Coachella. We're here to break it down with Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. Tati, welcome back to the pod. [00:03:09] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, thanks for having me, excited to dive in.  [00:03:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah. One of the reasons I wanted to talk about this with you is because I feel like Coachella reminds me of some of the conversations we've had about, a lot of these platforms that they, in many ways have become the bigger brand and the destination than the actual creators on some of these platforms. And I feel like Coachella, at least from a music festival perspective, has some of that because at least in the US this is the most popular music festival. We've seen it expand over the past two decades. And while most music festivals do rely so heavily on their headliners, Coachella is one of the ones that it's still able to, in many ways, capture the same audience and just get a consistent following and culture around it. That doesn't seem like it's stood as dependent on the headliners, but they still get big headliners. So how do you think that shapes the festival and how fans themselves interact with that festival? [00:04:10] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. I mean, just to like prove out what you're saying, I think, I'm pretty sure Coachella tends to sell out or at least sell a lot of tickets before their headliners are even announced or before the lineup is announced at all. So you're totally right. I think it's become a big enough brand in itself that people are just kind of, ready to buy into it. And I think it's because Coachella has It's kind of created a culture. I remember kind of the celebrity era of Coachella when like, you know, Vanessa Hudgeons was like the queen of Coachella and you could go and run into Rihanna and Paris Hilton and like they kind of created that aesthetic of like the hippie style and all of these things. And so, when people buy a ticket, it's like they're buying into a lifestyle and a culture more so than the music itself. I think a lot of people go for that experience and to dress up and like buy into that, that lifestyle, maybe even more so than the music. and it does seem like Coachella over time, maybe because of that. The lineups have become a little bit more like crowd pleaser and mainstream to me. Like I was looking, just in preparation for this episode, like kind of looking at the history of Coachella and I didn't realize that when it started, part of what Paul Tollett wanted to do was create like a more niche festival where you would bring together like a lot of niche artists and hope that they all have big enough individual following that, you know, putting all that together. Would be enough for a festival. and it seems like the complete opposite today. In many ways like I think Coachella still sometimes tends to have like more left of center artists that line up this year is like super diverse and interesting. But it does seem like they've maybe become a little bit more mainstream over time. And maybe it is because the people are going not as much for the music as they're going for, like the vibe of it all. [00:06:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and dating back to that first festival, it's kind of crazy that this even became what it is today because it starts in 1999. They announced this festival and put tickets on sale. I think it was two months before the actual festival started, so not that much time. They announced it the same week or the week after Woodstock 99, which is just a complete shit show, which said so much about where people viewed a festival like this and their headliner was Beck. They didn't make as much money, I wanna say like 25,000 people showed. So they couldn't even have a festival in 2000. They had to wait until the next year and do the partnership with Golden Voice and make it happen. And then, yeah, fast forward to where we are today, where it is mainstream pop artists that are doing it. And what was once this niche culture of people that just really enjoyed indie rock music. It now is this mainstream thing. It almost reminds me of something like Comic-Con in that same way where it was this nerd thing with people that you know wanna do live action, role play, and Dungeons and Dragons, or dress up like Zelda. And now every mainstream celebrity is there to promote their movie. [00:07:19] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. And in the same way, you're going to dress up, you're going to like, kind of put on a costume, Coachella, it is kind of a costume for most people and like have that experience regardless of who's playing.so yeah, I totally agree. And I think the other thing, like over time Coachella has gotten to a place because of all that we're talking about, where it has such a, power on the festival market, like written into its contracts, like it has a radius clause that they get to release their lineup first. They are the first festival of the season, mid-April is like pretty early, so there's also now like I think built in ways that Coachella tends to be kind of the North Star for all of the festivals, and so it's just the one that people are going to regardless of, yeah, regardless of who's playing. [00:08:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I also feel like because it has a bit more of that brand and that audience command, regardless of who the artist is, I almost feel like it has a little bit of that Super Bowl effect where artists want to be able to perform on that stage because sure, they may bring some fans themselves, but they're likely gonna be reaching a new audience and having exposure to people that may not necessarily have tapped in general compared to, and I think Coachella is similar, but if you compare that to some of these other festivals that are so heavily reliant on that headliner themself. There's a case to be made that, okay, well if the headliner pulled those fans into the festival, then they have to then share those tickets essentially, you know, soft tickets with everyone else. How does that compare to actual hard tickets that they could have done themselves? So, I feel like there's a Coachella advantage there.  [00:09:01] Tati Cirisano: And there's also a disadvantage in that you don't get, I mean, I know that I'm pretty sure already, like the data that you get on who's in your seats at shows is pretty minimal. But when you go to a festival, you don't really know who's going to see the festival for you and you don't really know who dis how many people discovered you or how many people came to your set. It's not the same as like if you sell out an arena, you know, the number of seats that were there, you know what I mean? So that's also an interesting thing is like you are probably getting a greater audience and this artist might be the whole reason the festival is selling tickets, but nobody's actually able to quantify that. [00:09:34] Dan Runcie: Right. And I feel like for some artists too, there's almost a bit of risk mitigation that can come with doing a festival. Risk mitigation may be the wrong word, but I think that's certain artists that have a lot of buzz or may have a lot of fanfare, it may be a lot harder for them to sell hard tickets. But if they could perform in front of this large festival crowd, they get a big advance or they get a big guarantee with the, promoter and through their agent as well, they can feel much more confident performing in front of, you know, thousands of fans or maybe even tens of thousands of fans on stage, even though they may not be able to sell, you know, sell out a house of Blues for instance. [00:10:14] Tati Cirisano: Totally. Yeah. No, and it also feels like being a performer at Coachella has become almost like a badge of honor or like something that goes on your one sheet, you know what I mean? Like, it's something that like gives you leverage as an artist and also is just, I don't know, seen as like it has a certain level of prestige. Like I would compare headlining at Coachella to like, in the same way that a lot of artists would love to get like a rolling stone or a billboard cover, even if like, regardless of whether that's selling or regardless of what that does, just that as a concept has, is just something that's like on a bucket list for most artists. I feel like Coachella headlining Coachella, if you're someone who's trying to be a superstar, that's like a bucket list item too. So yeah, it's, interesting How entrenched this festival has become in the music industry when you really think about it. [00:11:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah, let's look at some of the numbers here, cuz I think that's another fascinating piece. So we don't have hard numbers for this. A lot of it is based on past things that have been shared. But in 2017, this festival grossed to 114 million. And they had around 125,000 people coming per weekend. So if you roughly do the math thing, you look at ticket sales, I feel like that's like just under $500, like per attendee that ends up coming to the festival. And we likely saw similar, maybe even greater as well, because that doesn't take into account sponsorships that doesn't take into account these brand activations and other things as well. And I know that Coachella is a festival that has taken some shit for not paying artists well, at least the artists that are further down that list, that have much smaller font size, I think it's seen as paying the headliners. Well, at least I was talking to, someone that understands the business well, and their estimates were that the headliners this year, so you have Bad Bunny, Black Pink, and Frank Ocean. Their thought was, Frank Ocean and Black Pink got 4 million per weekend, so 8 million total and that Bad Bunny likely got 5 million per weekend. So then 10 total and then I believe that Calvin Harris's name was, towards the bottom of that list, like returned to the desert, Calvin Harris, I think he got one and per weekend. And then the artists that are on let second row, like Burna Boy and a few others, I think it was around like seven 50K per weekend but then it's a steep drop off after that, right? I mean, I remember hearing from Cardi B, this was, you know, after invasion of privacy, but still before, you know, she blew up, blew up. Or maybe it was the year before that, I forget. But she talked about how she was paid 70K, but she saw it as an investment in her career as an opportunity to pull up and get more. And obviously she's someone that you know, is now getting a million dollars. Private shows where she's doing 35 minute sets, but I feel like that like plays into that. So I don't know if all of those artists are getting paid, but yeah, I think some of them are willing to take that because of the exposure.  [00:13:14] Tati Cirisano: Right. Yeah, I think you're probably right. And the number that I would love to know is like how much money that, cuz I know you, you were also talking about the boost of the local economy and that I think it was400 million, in Coachella Valley. I'm also wondering, like, even outside of that, just the whole business of it, like you mentioned the sponsorships, the influencer deals, you know, H & M having a Coachella section in their store. Like all of these things, I'm almost more fascinated by all of these kind of like satellite businesses around Coachella than the business of Coachella itself like I would love to know the total number for how much revenue this festival is just kind of generating for all these things outside of it, if that makes sense like, cuz it seems to go so far, like e every store has a festival section in March and you know that what they're really talking about is Coachella. [00:14:06] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Yeah. Like, could we look at, I'm sure they wouldn't share this, but if Forever 21 and H & M and those types of stores shared, how much more do they get from, you know, their festival and attire, whether that's, you know, the flower headdresses or whatever, you know, the crowns and the stuff that people wear or just shut general outfits as well. And then I forget the name of the brand, but there's one of those brands that I'm sure many of them do, but they pay for all the hotels that are in Palm Springs, that are in Indio in the general area, put all the influencers there, buy all the clothes for them, and then buy all their tickets and just have them work almost the same way a reporter would work the festival.  [00:14:47] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. like what is the influencer economy around Coachella specifically? Like how much money is there? I would love to know. [00:14:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I feel like, because if you count that, I wouldn't be surprised if you're over a billion, especially like just when you count the overall impact for sure.  [00:15:05] Tati Cirisano: did you happen to see the price of the first Coachella ticket? When you were doing your research,  [00:15:12] Dan Runcie: I saw this a while ago, but I forget now. How much was it?  [00:15:16] Tati Cirisano: Guess, guess,  [00:15:17] Dan Runcie: oh, guess. Okay. I'm gonna guess it's like $75. [00:15:20] Tati Cirisano: It was $50 [00:15:22] Dan Runcie: Oh, wow.  [00:15:23] Tati Cirisano: Was and this year's was $550 and that's before, so  [00:15:28] Dan Runcie: Wow. Wow. What a come up 50 bucks to see all those artists and then only 20 other 25,000 other people there.  Wow, that's something crazy. Yeah. I mean, so 10X there, everything's grown. And then even just the expansion, right? Because I think it was around like 2007 or so that they first went to multi-day, then they went to multiple weekends. Yeah [00:15:51] Tati Cirisano: I wouldn't be shocked if they added a third. I think anything more than a third weekend would be kind of overkill and maybe wouldn't be special anymore, but I actually would not be shocked if they made it a three weekend thing.  [00:16:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah,  [00:16:02] Tati Cirisano: One of these days.  [00:16:04] Dan Runcie: I feel like it, because if you look at the opportunity, we can talk about this now, but if you look at the livestream play that's been happening, they've only been expanding that. So this was the first year that. So YouTube has been partnering to livestream this show since 2011, I believe, but this is the first year that all six stages are now gonna have a dedicated stream. And I think the pattern that we've seen now is you have a artist like Beyonce, she obviously gets the full recording of her show. She then sells that to Netflix for 20 million dollars or however much that deal is, and then she ends up monetizing that. I assume that there's likely some compensation or some participation that Coachella and more broadly golden voice get from that piece of it. But what could the stepped up livestream look like further. I mean, I've watched it in past years and it's nice, but could there ever be a Super Bowl level production that goes into at least some particular part of these artists sets? Because they're clearly putting more and more into it as it does become a big stage and you do have a little bit more flexibility of Yeah, it's not a 13 minute set, it's a hour long thing and the higher the production value, the more fans are gonna wanna see it, the more YouTube can get more ad dollars for it and the more goes to Coachella too. [00:17:26] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, I think there's definitely an opportunity for that and not just higher production quality of filming the show, but also when you mentioned the Super Bowl, like having like commentators and doing interviews and there's like know what I mean like there's like a halftime like conversation. I could see there being like hosts and like interviewing fans and things like that. I feel like that's probably happened at festivals before. before. I haven't watched that many festival live streams but I'm trying to remember, like Glastonbury's was really good, this past year and it was everywhere like, because they did such a good job with the live stream. There were clips on every social media app I looked at. It was all over the news. Like it really became this cultural moment.so I think, yeah, I think there's definitely an opportunity to like have a higher quality live stream that people will pay for. I also think on the other end of things, I wonder how much more. Like UGC Live streams will come into play. I was thinking about this because, bill Wordy, who's the former, billboard, like editor-in-chief, he has a newsletter, you probably know, what is it  called? Full Write No Cap  [00:18:28] Dan Runcie: Full Rate, No cap.  [00:18:30] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, he spoke recently, or he wrote recently about how so many Taylor Swift fans are live streaming the entire. concert for the Eras tour on TikTok and on YouTube and getting tips for it. And these streams are like pretty low quality and they're often like from the nosebleeds and you can't even see Taylor, but they're getting like thousands of viewers and people are paying them to do it, and he kind of suggested, like what could the opportunity be here, whether that's artists partnering with TikTok to livestream it or what I think is more interesting maybe is like partnering with creators to do this. If they're already doing it, why not create an infrastructure around it? But then I also don't wanna advocate for like, everybody to be at the show live streaming the entire show and like have their phones in their faces and like I know artists hate that. I know fans hate that, I hate that. So it's an interesting question and I don't know exactly how it would look, but I feel like UGC live streams could come into play like on the opposite end of these, like more high production shows or live streams.  [00:19:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think so too because you, of course, there's always gonna be something for the high production quality camera that you see, and even that I still do believe is under monetized to a lot of extent. I mean, we don't have public numbers, but I could just assume based on what you see from sports and other rights. But the UGC thing is huge because I just feel like you could have some unique angle. You're getting the experience yourself. I'd love to know like what those tipping numbers do look like. But yeah, I think it's huge because while a tour. I think there may feel like a less scarce aspect for that, and just in the fact that, yeah, you know, Taylor is only doing this once, but she's doing roughly 50 shows, right? But there's only gonna be two of these times that, at least right now, that Frank Ocean is gonna be doing this headline set and it's, you know, when we release this podcast, it'll be right in this timeframe but like that's it. Like there's scarcity around that people wanna see that they're gonna wanna go back and watch it time and time again. So I think there's something there. I feel like we start to see some of this where, I'm sure you've seen it. Artists are starting to record one of the shows from their concert and then have that as something that you could watch on Amazon or something you can watch on HBO Max or Hulu. So we're seeing some of that, but I still feel like there's an opportunity to get more fan, like even if you get fan views in there and get them, have some type of participation from when the doc ends up getting sold or whatever that is. I feel like there's a few interesting ways to do it. [00:21:04] Tati Cirisano: I mean, I even think about like YouTube reaction videos and how like that's such a huge space of people. For all sorts of things, like listening to the new Taylor Swift album and live reacting, and people watched that and I could see a similar thing at a festival like live reaction to the Frank Ocean Set. And then afterwards you're like telling everyone what you thought. Like again, I don't wanna advocate for more phones at shows, but I feel like people are already doing this and so maybe it's a question of like how to support it and make it a better experience. I don't know. [00:21:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it'll be interesting to explore. I feel like the other unique thing about Coachella, we can talk a bit about pricing. You mentioned itself the price is 10X'd in 24 years since the first Coachella. But as this festival becomes more expensive as touring itself, especially to see these headliner type artists becomes more expensive. You talked a lot about, or you mentioned how does that impact the actual experience and how does that impact what fans may wanna do? Like how do they justify buying separate tickets to see just one artist versus being able to see multiple ones in a festival? What are your thoughts on that? [00:22:13] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, I mean, I think there's multiple factors kind of pushing toward festivals. Being a kind of solution for a lot of fans today. One is, as I've, you know, shouted from the rooftops in so many of our conversations, like listenership is really fragmenting and people tend to listen to way a wider spread of artists today, making it kind of hard to have a mainstream or a superstar, or harder to have a superstar. And they're also focusing more on songs often than artists. and then on top of that, costs for pretty much everything are skyrocketing. So yeah, if you're someone who listens to a wide range of artists and you're more likely to be, to kind of center your fandom around songs than artists themselves, and you also are not maybe able to afford going to five different shows anymore, why would you not rather go to see a festival? And not that festivals aren't expensive, cuz their enormously expensive, especially when you factor in travel and the outfits like we've talked about and all of these things. But I just given all the trends with, listenership that we're seeing, I feel like festivals will become even more popular for consumers. [00:23:23] Dan Runcie: I also think some of this may shift genre by genre, and to some extent I do look at it. A bit bittersweet to some extent because I look at festivals like, let's look at two of them rolling Loud and this Lovers and Friends Festival that I know had been canceled and I know they, had recently had one rolling loud, of course, is primarily rappers and hip hop artists, lovers and friends is more of that R and B that I think that a lot of millennials and even some,younger Gen X folks grew up with. Because those festivals exist in that same way. It's great to be able to bring those artists together. I do wonder though, has that dynamic hurt any of those artists impact to be able to generate not just real fans that may definitely wanna see them by buying hard tickets, but how does that help them grow the fan base in a way that doesn't make them just reliant on doing, rolling loud and then just getting an upfront check to do that as opposed to the long-term gains that could come from. Okay, yeah, you may not be performing for as big of an audience relative to your social following, but what could that build up to down the road? And I think even for some of these legacy artists that are doing lovers and friends fest, I remember I was talking with someone, about this recently and they were like, yeah, you know, as much as you like lovers and friends fest like t hose artists are the more indirect way, seeing them all the way they do now.  [00:24:48] Tati Cirisano: Right, like the festival makes a lot of like on paper, logical sense for consumers, but does it make sense for fandom? Like is it actually helping artists nurture fan bases or is it just feeding more into what I was saying about, you know, a lot of people just kind of listening to songs and not artists So yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense and a lot of these artists that are playing. Those smaller, more niche festivals are playing a ton of them. And if it's like Megan Thee Stallion is playing at 10 different festivals, why are you going to buy a ticket to her tour? Like, I think it could kind of cannibalize some of those sales or like diminish people's interests in, going to the tour as well, or maybe they go and they're like, oh my God, Megan was incredible during her shorter set. I want to go see her on tour like, I don't know, maybe it, goes both ways, but I do think that we might see more and more of those smaller and more niche festivals for all of the reasons that I've mentioned. Like I think we've seen more and more, there's so many nostalgia festivals now there's so many, like speaking to a very specific scene, like, I forget what it's called, but there was one that was almost like, it was kind of like emo night, but as a festival, like I think we're, I think we're probably gonna see even more of that, and those are gonna be the ones that don't cost you, you know, two grand to go to Coachella.  and it's maybe a little bit more accessible. so yeah, I think, I think we're probably gonna see more of those type of niche ones. [00:26:14] Dan Runcie: Do you think that there's certain artists that don't need Coachella? I know we talked about how it's beneficial for headliners, but I thought a lot about the weekend doing Coachella last year, and he was a late edition, Travis Scott was supposed to be the headliner, but after Astroworld and the tragedy there, he didn't do it the weekend does it? The weekend already had this tour planned. He did that tour in Southern California, he had still performed at SoFi Stadium later on that year. I don't know how the radius and the timeframe works out there, but I'm sure there must have been enough time there. But I wonder if, okay, beyond the $8 million, we could assume that he got from that. I mean, that's roughly what he would make from one of these stadium rougnights that he would do on his own tour. Did that benefit him in the same way? I don't know. I mean, I think I can clearly see the benefit for Black Pink or even Bad Buddy and others where, hey, this is a statement. You're here on one of the biggest stages we have in the US and you aren't from this country and you don't live here. There's a big, influence that that can have, but does it make sense for the weekend, right? I know that people have often talked about when would Taylor Swift do it, and whether that's talking about the Super Bowl or even Coachella, but even if we just talk about Coachella even if you paid Taylor 10 million dollars or 12 million dollars, is that going to be more beneficial for her when she can sell out football stadiums herself doing her own thing? So [00:27:47] Tati Cirisano: Right. It's been more important for Coachella than it is for Taylor Swift. to be at Coachella, I guess. [00:27:54] Dan Runcie: I would think so, because I mean, on one hand, yes, we know Coachella is gonna sell out regardless, but they could get more of those fans that may do participate in other, you know, economic, you know, aspects of the festival. [00:28:08] Tati Cirisano: Totally. Yeah. And they have more control over things and everything. Yeah, I think, you're right, for an artist like The Weeknd or Taylor Swift, it's probably more about like checking off that bucket list item or like having that prestige of performing at Coachella than it is like a material benefit. I think you're probably right to question that, but then you're right. for an artist like Black Pink, it means a lot more and is probably a lot more impactful in terms of like revenue and fan building and things like that. [00:28:35] Dan Runcie: Another topic you brought up about festivals right before we had started recording, you're talking about a festival you had went to recently in Knoxville, Tennessee, and it was spread out across different music venues in the city itself. And you also said you're done with festivals on festival grounds. So can you talk a little bit about that? Cuz I think that could be interesting to dig into a bit. [00:29:01] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, it was perfect timing to do this episode because I went to the antithesis of Coachella last weekend, which is, a festival called Big Ears in Knoxville, Tennessee it was a 10 year anniversary of this festival and in terms of the types of performers there, it was a lot of kind of like experimental and independent and folk music, instrumental artists, like Sun Ra Arkestra was one of the performers. I also, my favorite performer was a rock band from Niger called Atron Delea, like it was all these kind of like from all over artists and so that was one part of it that was cool. It was very niche and it was very much a scene, kind of like I'm talking about having these like more niche scene oriented festivals and it was held across the venues in Knoxville, of which there are like, 10 or 15, and they're all about a 10 minute walk from each other. And they also had performances in movie theaters and in cathedrals and in these sort of like non-traditional spaces and. It was just such a more enjoyable experience to me than being locked in a pen in like a parking lot and like, you know, having to pay $10 for water and like feeling very Lord of the Flies for 12 hours like, it was such a better experience and it also struck me how much it could be, you know, a big thing for the venues in that area. It's a big thing for the community and for the culture of the city, like, I don't think you could like turn Coachella into a festival, like across the venues in LA or like New York or something like, I don't think it would work for something at that scale, but it did make me think that, there could be more of, I think, and I'm sure that there are, I'm sure others exist, but that there could be more of these types of festivals that are a bit smaller, a bit more niche, and are held in a city. And you're also bringing the music to consumers rather than people having to travel to someplace like LA like just having these festivals in smaller cities. I just think there's a big opportunity there and also just to innovate the festival experience in general. Like, why do we have to be, you know, in a parking lot and, you know, all that kind of stuff. There's been better. Innovations in like, like I know the food at festivals has gotten a lot better over time. It used to be like frozen pizza was like your only option, and now there's like crazy food tents. But yeah, it just got me thinking about like how to innovate the festival experience and what the future of things looks like. [00:31:23] Dan Runcie: That's a good point because it makes me think of the film festival variety that we see where there's different vibes, but a lot of it is based in existing venues, and it does bring a bit more traffic in general activity to that area, but it's a bit of a different experience, right? Whether it's, you know, Tribeca or even here in San Francisco or in Sundance, I mean you could also get a little bit of a different vibe too, where, okay, if you wanna go skiing in Park City, then you can go to Sundance in January, right? If you want to go on the French Riviera afterward, you can go to Cannes like there's so many different vibes, but I feel like in general, when people think of music festivals, it is wearing that Coachella outfit and being somewhere in an open field with not a lot of shade and, you know, like that type of thing. So I feel like it couldn't then, yeah, it could just bring a little bit more variety to some of these things. And the fact that it already exists is good, but it could probably bring a bit more, you know, boom, to some of these other areas that may want something unique and ideally, if they're not overlapping on headliners, which is another thing that I know is an ongoing challenge with these festivals. I feel like when Outkast did their whole festival run where I forgot how many they did in 2014, that was the first year that stuck out to me where I was like, oh, some of these artists are just going boom, boom, boom. Same festival. Same festival. So you have that some artists that would do it in the same years, but then you also have some artists that will just come back and do the same festival time and time again, and it really isn't that much different. What are your thoughts on that?  [00:33:02] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. I wanna say one more thing about the big years thing, really quick before that question, which is, how that kind of festival could expand the audience, like the tam of festival goers like I would say about half of the people at Big Year's were 55 plus, these are not people that are going to Coachella, you know, like, I mean, maybe they are, but I, I think there's other demographics and other age groups that would enjoy going to a festival if there was a bit of a different experience. So I feel like there's a lot of groups that were not hitting with the traditional festival market. and like this venue model could be kind of like that. but yeah, in terms of festival lineups getting a lot more homogenous, I kind of can't help but attribute it to the fragmentation trend that we've been talking about and how much harder it is to create a new mainstream superstar today. Like, y eah, I think that a lot of festivals are finding it harder and harder to find these kind of crowd pleasingheadline acts and there aren't as many new ones coming up. And it also seems like, festivals are kind of continuing to dip into these legacy acts from times when the industry was less congested and less fragmented like the Glastonbury lineup, it's Yeah, Arctic Monkeys, Elton John and Guns N' Roses. And it's like this could be the lineup a decade ago. So it does feel like not only are festival lineups becoming more homogenous, but a lot of them are tending to book legacy acts rather than newer, mainstream stars. Maybe because there aren't as many newer mainstream stars, I don't know. [00:34:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that, that headline spot is probably where some of, I don't even wanna say contention, but some of that decision making can lie in, maybe a lot of this applies to festivals that aren't like Coachella a bit because they are a bit more reliant on the headliners themselves, and because of that, they're more likely to make, what they feel is safer picks and unfortunately, a lot of these safer picks end up being more male, more white, and more legacy acts that have likely been there before. So if they're like, okay, well we knew that Arctic Monkeys were, you know, huge in 2012, then let's bring them back in so we can try to command some of that same audience that is like, well, you also have local stars and others around the world that don't fit into those same categories that could do it. But they feel like that's a risk, unfortunately, and then if they do invite those folks, it's for less money and their name is smaller and they're not presented as a headliner in the same way. So I think that's one of the downsides of it. And the fact, I think fragmentation plays into this, cuz I think, you know, regardless of who you are, it has just become even harder to have artists break out. The artists that do break out, they're more likely to maybe break out within their particular region. It's harder to have that same global appeal in that same way and I think we've seen maybe a few outlier examples of that more recently. Especially when you look at Coachella's lineup this year with Burna Boy and Black Pink and Bad Bunny all having prominent placement in their festival. I'm curious what that looks like in future years. How do you maintain that? Because even from that perspective, yeah, there's other artists that are huge, but they've already kind of gotten some of the biggest ones that we've at least had at this particular moment. But there's others. I'm curious. I forget if Dual Lipa has headlined one of the big, huge festivals in the world, I don't think she has yet, right? [00:36:41] Tati Cirisano: That's a good question. She hasn't headlined Coachella, she definitely had a big set at Glastonbury, but I don't know if she headlined. I don't know.  [00:36:48] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. I feel like that may have been a few years ago, but I forget if that was like before or after,  [00:36:53] Tati Cirisano: Oh yeah.  [00:36:53] Dan Runcie: of Nostalgia tour and then after that, just thinking of other artists that have gotten huge in the past recent years, whether you have Billy Eilish or SZA, I mean, there's a few but. I'd be interested to see whether or not those names have become headliners, maybe we're seeing some of these festivals do this now, where outside Lasnier, which is, you know, right here in my backyard of San Francisco, their most recent poster. Instead of having three headliners, one per day, they have 10 artists that have big font size names, and then they have the other 60 or 70 that all have, you know, smaller, but it's all kind of the same. And, you know, you just look at the names of these artists. I'll just say right now for outside Lasnier, Kendrick Lamar, Foo Fighters, Odessa, Lana Del Ray, the 1975, Megan Thee Stallion, Zed, Janelle Monáe, Maggie Rogers, and Fisher. and I mean, I'm, I'm not shy to be mean, I'm not trying to call anyone out, but there's certain artists on that I just mentioned there that would not headline outside lands if it was presented as, oh, these are the three headliners. And they may not even be on that second row either, but. Is that in some way reflective of where things are, where it may make it easier, and of course you could probably guess based on the order of those names, Kendrick Lamar's name is at the top, you know, of this list. But still like, is this some type of reflection of this fragmentation where you have all these different genres, most of these artists, more modern, current artists, except for, you know, Foo Fighters, a bit more legacy that has continued to play on but I wonder how often we'll see that with other festivals that are maybe closer to outside lands and Coachella where, you know, still a major huge festival, but they're not getting the same headliners that Coachella is. [00:38:42] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. No, I think, you're absolutely right and I think we're gonna see that type of lineup more, at the same time as we're seeing that, there are fewer of these like Beyonce level mainstream stars, we're seeing a growth in the middle tier. We're seeing a lot more of these like, cult stars and also artists on that list who are huge but aren't really at the level of, you know, some of like Madonna or you know, these artists of the past, these icons of the past. So I think it makes more sense rather than having, you know, three headliners to have like six, not as huge artists still have a really big following. I think that makes a lot more sense, for the festival, the people going, and I think we will start to see more of that just because of the way that fragmentation is playing out. Yeah. I also wonder, when we're gonna start to see like the millennial version of legacy artists start to perform, like, was funny when I saw like the lovers and friends line up, I was like, oh my God. when you start getting an nostalgia festival marketed to you, that's when you know you're getting old. That's when you know you're no longer like the youngest And like, I wonder, when we'll start to maybe tap into like 90s and 2000s era. Sort of icons, like I would love to see like Missy Elliot headline, Coachella, like that type of thing. And I wonder if that's gonna be like the next step once we've exhausted all the times that like Foo Fighters can possibly headline a festival  [00:40:09] Dan Runcie: I know, right? Like  [00:40:10] Tati Cirisano: Who are also that era but, you know, what I mean, like.  [00:40:13] Dan Runcie: For sure. For sure. Yeah, because I feel like we saw. Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg were headliners maybe around 10 years ago, and then they had brought, the Tupac hologram out infamously. You remember that? So, we did have that. And of course, you know, that kind of reminds me of the Super Bowl that, from a couple years ago. But I do feel like there's a sweet spot there, given. Where Usher is right now, the popularity of his residency, I wouldn't be surprised if he jumps back on this circuit and he's doing less of the lovers and friends and he's doing more of the headlining major music festivals  [00:40:49] Tati Cirisano: He would be amazing.  [00:40:50] Dan Runcie: There's a huge opportunity there. Yeah. Great performer. I think he still does great stuff. I wanted to see if I can go make it to Vegas to go catch this, residency before it ends. But yeah, I I think that there is a sweet spot there for that. I mean, you think about other artists, I think Justin Timberlake has probably done some of these already, so we've seen him do them. I don't know if Britney Spears would probably perform in that same way. But we'll see. I feel like there's a number of artists that they can tap into from that era. [00:41:18] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.  [00:41:21] Dan Runcie: And yeah. I guess before we wrap things up, are there any predictions you have then for let's predict what 2024 would look like? Three headliners. Who would you think would most likely be a headliner for Coachella 2024?  [00:41:37] Tati Cirisano: I would say SZA, probably, I would say Dua Lipa I think she makes a lot of sense as a headliner too, just in terms of like how, I hate like, I don't wanna say like crowd pleasing or mainstream, but like, cause I feel like that sounds like I'm giving her shade and I'm not. I think she's incredibly talented, but like she would please a, a big swath of people with her music and she's a cool performer and she has some time now, I think, since she's not touring. but, okay. So Du Lipa, SZA, This is about to be an all female headliners. This is a bit of wishful thinking, but I would love to see, cause I don't know if she's ready for this yet, but I would love to see Rosalia, headline Coachella. I think she's getting there and I actually saw her in 2019 at Coachella. She was playing the tiniest stage ever and she treated it like she was in a stadium. Like the production quality and the dancers and just like everything she put into it was incredible. And she's risen a lot over the past few years. So, yeah, that's my trio. [00:42:35] Dan Runcie: Nice. Nice. All right. We have one in common. We have SZA, so I'm gonna go SZA, Madonna, and Usher. I think that's gonna be my prediction, I feel like, Madonna has this tour coming up. Maybe she'll cap things off with a Coachella performance. But I feel like yeah, if you're gonna have this tour, I forget the name of it, you're gonna go back through all her eras. I feel like there's something unique there, so, so,  yeah. I know, I know. And we'll have to revisit this. We still have a number of festival lineups to get announced this year, so we'll have to check back in and see how do these continue to develop, what continues to shape in how these festivals continue to evolve over time. So tati, this was great. Thanks for coming on. [00:43:17] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, Thanks for having me. Oh, it's a pleasure. [00:43:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. [00:43:20] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. The first weekend of Coachella is here: Bad Bunny, BLACKPINK, and Frank Ocean will headline for 2023. Coachella is expected to gross well over $100 million with over 100,000+ attendees per day.


In this episode, broke it all down withMIDiA Research’s Tati Cirisano. Coachella started in 1999 as a niche festival for indie rock and quickly morphed into the biggest brand-name festival in the United States. These days, the Coachella brand is big enough to sell the experience itself, regardless of who’s performing — a rarity in the festival business.  


Tati and I discuss why that is, the implications, and what the future of Coachella could hold. Here’s what we hit on:


[1:20] Coachella’s brand sells itself

[2:19] Festival’s origin story

[7:09] Advantages and disadvantages of performing at Coachella

[9:09] Success by the numbers

[11:28] Coachella bump for brands, influencers, and local economy

[16:38] Untapped opportunities for future Coachellas

[22:02] How individual music show prices influence festival attendance

[24:22] Artists that are above playing Coachella

[27:08] The festival that’s the antithesis of Coachella 

[31:10] Festival lineups becoming homogeneous 

[39:36] Predicting Coachella’s 2024 headliners



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Tati Cirisano, @tatianacirisano


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital


Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.


TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Tati Cirisano: Being a performer at Coachella has become almost like a badge of honor or like something that goes on your one sheet, you know what I mean? Like, it's something that like gives you leverage as an artist and also is just, I don't know, seen as like it has a certain level of prestige.

Like I would compare headlining at Coachella to like, in the same way that a lot of artists would love to get like a rolling stone or a billboard cover, even if like, regardless of whether that's selling or regardless of what that does, just that as a concept has, is just something that's like on a bucket list for most artists.

I feel like headlining Coachella, if you're someone who's trying to be a superstar, that's like a bucket list item too. So yeah, it's, interesting How entrenched this festival has become in the music industry when you really think about it.

[00:00:43] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:01:25] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is about the business behind Coachella and the unofficial start to music festival season in 2023. Coachella's history is pretty impressive when you think about it. This festival started in 1999. It was announced the week after Woodstock 99, and the shit show that that festival. With just 60 days’ notice to then put on this festival that attracted just 25,000 people and ticket prices cost $50 each, and the headliner was Beck and the festival didn't make it money that year.

Didn't even make enough to continue in 2000, and it wasn't until its partnership with Golden Voice in 2001 that it was able to get things back on track and slowly build up to the behemoth of a festival that we see today. It's an event that attracts well over a hundred thousand people per day for the six days of the festival itself.

Two straight weekends and it attracts some of the biggest artists in the world. And this year they're especially making its footprint scene on the global scene. The headliners include Bad Bunny, Black Pink, Frank Ocean. There's also artists like Burna Boy, Calvin Harris, and many others that are making up this year's lineup.

To break it all down, I'm joined by Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research. We talk about what this festival does well, how it's shaped music culture overall, and its broader impact on music festival culture. Here's our breakdown. Hope you enjoy it.

[00:02:55] Dan Runcie: All right. Today's episode is all about festivals and the granddaddy of them all, at least in the US, Coachella. We're here to break it down with Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research.

Tati, welcome back to the pod.

[00:03:09] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, thanks for having me, excited to dive in. 

[00:03:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah. One of the reasons I wanted to talk about this with you is because I feel like Coachella reminds me of some of the conversations we've had about, a lot of these platforms that they, in many ways have become the bigger brand and the destination than the actual creators on some of these platforms. And I feel like Coachella, at least from a music festival perspective, has some of that because at least in the US this is the most popular music festival.

We've seen it expand over the past two decades. And while most music festivals do rely so heavily on their headliners, Coachella is one of the ones that it's still able to, in many ways, capture the same audience and just get a consistent following and culture around it. That doesn't seem like it's stood as dependent on the headliners, but they still get big headliners.

So how do you think that shapes the festival and how fans themselves interact with

that festival?

[00:04:10] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. I mean, just to like prove out what you're saying, I think, I'm pretty sure Coachella tends to sell out or at least sell a lot of tickets before their headliners are even announced or before the lineup is announced at all. So you're totally right. I think it's become a big enough brand in itself that people are just kind of, ready to buy into it. And I think it's because Coachella has It's kind of created a culture. I remember kind of the celebrity era of Coachella when like, you know, Vanessa Hudgeons was like the queen of Coachella and you could go and run into Rihanna and Paris Hilton and like they kind of created that aesthetic of like the hippie style and all of these things.

And so, when people buy a ticket, it's like they're buying into a lifestyle and a culture more so than the music itself. I think a lot of people go for that experience and to dress up and like buy into that, that lifestyle, maybe even more so than the music. and it does seem like Coachella over time, maybe because of that.

The lineups have become a little bit more like crowd pleaser and mainstream to me. Like I was looking, just in preparation for this episode, like kind of looking at the history of Coachella and I didn't realize that when it started, part of what Paul Tollett wanted to do was create like a more niche festival where you would bring together like a lot of niche artists and hope that they all have big enough individual following that, you know, putting all that together. Would be enough for a festival. and it seems like the complete opposite today. In many ways like I think Coachella still sometimes tends to have like more left of center artists that line up this year is like super diverse and interesting. But it does seem like they've maybe become a little bit more mainstream over time.

And maybe it is because the people are going not as much for the music as they're going for, like the vibe of it all.

[00:06:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and dating back to that first festival, it's kind of crazy that this even became what it is today because it starts in 1999. They announced this festival and put tickets on sale. I think it was two months before the actual festival started, so not that much time. They announced it the same week or the week after Woodstock 99, which is just a complete shit show, which said so much about where people viewed a festival like this and their headliner was Beck. They didn't make as much money, I wanna say like 25,000 people showed. So they couldn't even have a festival in 2000. They had to wait until the next year and do the partnership with Golden Voice and make it happen.

And then, yeah, fast forward to where we are today, where it is mainstream pop artists that are doing it. And what was once this niche culture of people that just really enjoyed indie rock music. It now is this mainstream thing. It almost reminds me of something like Comic-Con in that same way where it was this nerd thing with people that you know wanna do live action, role play, and Dungeons and Dragons, or dress up like Zelda.

And now every mainstream celebrity is there to promote their movie.

[00:07:19] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. And in the same way, you're going to dress up, you're going to like, kind of put on a costume, Coachella, it is kind of a costume for most people and like have that experience regardless of who's playing.so yeah, I totally agree. And I think the other thing, like over time Coachella has gotten to a place because of all that we're talking about, where it has such a, power on the festival market, like written into its contracts, like it has a radius clause that they get to release their lineup first.

They are the first festival of the season, mid-April is like pretty early, so there's also now like I think built in ways that Coachella tends to be kind of the North Star for all of the festivals, and so it's just the one that people are going to regardless of, yeah, regardless of who's playing.

[00:08:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I also feel like because it has a bit more of that brand and that audience command, regardless of who the artist is, I almost feel like it has a little bit of that Super Bowl effect where artists want to be able to perform on that stage because sure, they may bring some fans themselves, but they're likely gonna be reaching a new audience and having exposure to people that may not necessarily have tapped in general compared to, and I think Coachella is similar, but if you compare that to some of these other festivals that are so heavily reliant on that headliner themself. There's a case to be made that, okay, well if the headliner pulled those fans into the festival, then they have to then share those tickets essentially, you know, soft tickets with everyone else.

How does that compare to actual hard tickets that they could have done themselves? So, I feel like there's a Coachella advantage there. 

[00:09:01] Tati Cirisano: And there's also a disadvantage in that you don't get, I mean, I know that I'm pretty sure already, like the data that you get on who's in your seats at shows is pretty minimal. But when you go to a festival, you don't really know who's going to see the festival for you and you don't really know who dis how many people discovered you or how many people came to your set. It's not the same as like if you sell out an arena, you know, the number of seats that were there, you know what I mean? So that's also an interesting thing is like you are probably getting a greater audience and this artist might be the whole reason the festival is selling tickets, but nobody's actually able to quantify that.

[00:09:34] Dan Runcie: Right. And I feel like for some artists too, there's almost a bit of risk mitigation that can come with doing a festival. Risk mitigation may be the wrong word, but I think that's certain artists that have a lot of buzz or may have a lot of fanfare, it may be a lot harder for them to sell hard tickets.

But if they could perform in front of this large festival crowd, they get a big advance or they get a big guarantee with the, promoter and through their agent as well, they can feel much more confident performing in front of, you know, thousands of fans or maybe even tens of thousands of fans on stage, even though they may not be able to sell, you know, sell out a house of Blues for instance.

[00:10:14] Tati Cirisano: Totally. Yeah. No, and it also feels like being a performer at Coachella has become almost like a badge of honor or like something that goes on your one sheet, you know what I mean? Like, it's something that like gives you leverage as an artist and also is just, I don't know, seen as like it has a certain level of prestige.

Like I would compare headlining at Coachella to like, in the same way that a lot of artists would love to get like a rolling stone or a billboard cover, even if like, regardless of whether that's selling or regardless of what that does, just that as a concept has, is just something that's like on a bucket list for most artists.

I feel like Coachella headlining Coachella, if you're someone who's trying to be a superstar, that's like a bucket list item too. So yeah, it's, interesting How entrenched this festival has become in the music industry when you really think about it.

[00:11:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah, let's look at some of the numbers here, cuz I think that's another fascinating piece. So we don't have hard numbers for this. A lot of it is based on past things that have been shared. But in 2017, this festival grossed to 114 million. And they had around 125,000 people coming per weekend.

So if you roughly do the math thing, you look at ticket sales, I feel like that's like just under $500, like per attendee that ends up coming to the festival. And we likely saw similar, maybe even greater as well, because that doesn't take into account sponsorships that doesn't take into account these brand activations and other things as well.

And I know that Coachella is a festival that has taken some shit for not paying artists well, at least the artists that are further down that list, that have much smaller font size, I think it's seen as paying the headliners. Well, at least I was talking to, someone that understands the business well, and their estimates were that the headliners this year, so you have Bad Bunny, Black Pink, and Frank Ocean.

Their thought was, Frank Ocean and Black Pink got 4 million per weekend, so 8 million total and that Bad Bunny likely got 5 million per weekend. So then 10 total and then I believe that Calvin Harris's name was, towards the bottom of that list, like returned to the desert, Calvin Harris, I think he got one and per weekend. And then the artists that are on let second row, like Burna Boy and a few others, I think it was around like seven 50K per weekend but then it's a steep drop off after that, right? I mean, I remember hearing from Cardi B, this was, you know, after invasion of privacy, but still before, you know, she blew up, blew up. Or maybe it was the year before that, I forget. But she talked about how she was paid 70K, but she saw it as an investment in her career as an opportunity to pull up and get more. And obviously she's someone that you know, is now getting a million dollars. Private shows where she's doing 35 minute sets, but I feel like that like plays into that.

So I don't know if all of those artists are getting paid, but yeah, I think some of them are willing to take that because of the exposure. 

[00:13:14] Tati Cirisano: Right. Yeah, I think you're probably right. And the number that I would love to know is like how much money that, cuz I know you, you were also talking about the boost of the local economy and that I think it was400 million, in Coachella Valley. I'm also wondering, like, even outside of that, just the whole business of it, like you mentioned the sponsorships, the influencer deals, you know, H & M having a Coachella section in their store.

Like all of these things, I'm almost more fascinated by all of these kind of like satellite businesses around Coachella than the business of Coachella itself like I would love to know the total number for how much revenue this festival is just kind of generating for all these things outside of it, if that makes sense like, cuz it seems to go so far, like e every store has a festival section in March and you know that what they're really talking about is Coachella.

[00:14:06] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Yeah. Like, could we look at, I'm sure they wouldn't share this, but if Forever 21 and H & M and those types of stores shared, how much more do they get from, you know, their festival and attire, whether that's, you know, the flower headdresses or whatever, you know, the crowns and the stuff that people wear or just shut general outfits as well. And then I forget the name of the brand, but there's one of those brands that I'm sure many of them do, but they pay for all the hotels that are in Palm Springs, that are in Indio in the general area, put all the influencers there, buy all the clothes for them, and then buy all their tickets and just have them work almost the same way a reporter

would work the festival. 

[00:14:47] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. like what is the influencer economy around Coachella specifically? Like how much money is there? I would love to know.

[00:14:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I feel like, because if you count that, I wouldn't be surprised if you're over a billion, especially

like just when you count the overall impact for sure. 

[00:15:05] Tati Cirisano: did you happen to see the price of the first Coachella ticket? When you were doing your research, 

[00:15:12] Dan Runcie: I saw this a while ago, but I forget now. How much was it? 

[00:15:16] Tati Cirisano: Guess, guess, 

[00:15:17] Dan Runcie: oh, guess. Okay. I'm gonna guess it's like $75.

[00:15:20] Tati Cirisano: It was $50

[00:15:22] Dan Runcie: Oh, wow. 

[00:15:23] Tati Cirisano: Was and this year's was $550 and that's before, so 

[00:15:28] Dan Runcie: Wow. Wow. What a come up 50 bucks to see all those artists and then only 20 other 25,000 other people there. 

Wow, that's something crazy. Yeah. I mean, so 10X there, everything's grown. And then even just the expansion, right? Because I think it was around like 2007 or so that they first went to multi-day, then they went to multiple weekends. Yeah

[00:15:51] Tati Cirisano: I wouldn't be shocked if they added a third. I think anything more than a third weekend would be kind of overkill and maybe wouldn't be special anymore, but I actually would not be shocked if they made it a three weekend thing. 

[00:16:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah, 

[00:16:02] Tati Cirisano: One of these days. 

[00:16:04] Dan Runcie: I feel like it, because if you look at the opportunity, we can talk about this now, but if you look at the livestream play that's been happening, they've only been expanding that. So this was the first year that. So YouTube has been partnering to livestream this show since 2011, I believe, but this is the first year that all six stages are now gonna have a dedicated stream.

And I think the pattern that we've seen now is you have a artist like Beyonce, she obviously gets the full recording of her show. She then sells that to Netflix for 20 million dollars or however much that deal is, and then she ends up monetizing that. I assume that there's likely some compensation or some participation that Coachella and more broadly golden voice get from that piece of it.

But what could the stepped up livestream look like further. I mean, I've watched it in past years and it's nice, but could there ever be a Super Bowl level production that goes into at least some particular part of these artists sets? Because they're clearly putting more and more into it as it does become a big stage and you do have a little bit more flexibility of Yeah, it's not a 13 minute set, it's a hour long thing and the higher the production value, the more fans are gonna wanna see it, the more YouTube can get more ad dollars for it and the more goes to Coachella too.

[00:17:26] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, I think there's definitely an opportunity for that and not just higher production quality of filming the show, but also when you mentioned the Super Bowl, like having like commentators and doing interviews and there's like know what I mean like there's like a halftime like conversation.

I could see there being like hosts and like interviewing fans and things like that. I feel like that's probably happened at festivals before. before. I haven't watched that many festival live streams but I'm trying to remember, like Glastonbury's was really good, this past year and it was everywhere like, because they did such a good job with the live stream. There were clips on every social media app I looked at. It was all over the news. Like it really became this cultural moment.so I think, yeah, I think there's definitely an opportunity to like have a higher quality live stream that people will pay for.

I also think on the other end of things, I wonder how much more. Like UGC Live streams will come into play. I was thinking about this because, bill Wordy, who's the former, billboard, like editor-in-chief, he has a newsletter, you probably know, what is it 

called? Full Write No Cap 

[00:18:28] Dan Runcie: Full Rate, No cap. 

[00:18:30] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, he spoke recently, or he wrote recently about how so many Taylor Swift fans are live streaming the entire. concert for the Eras tour on TikTok and on YouTube and getting tips for it. And these streams are like pretty low quality and they're often like from the nosebleeds and you can't even see Taylor, but they're getting like thousands of viewers and people are paying them to do it, and he kind of suggested, like what could the opportunity be here, whether that's artists partnering with TikTok to livestream it or what I think is more interesting maybe is like partnering with creators to do this. If they're already doing it, why not create an infrastructure around it? But then I also don't wanna advocate for like, everybody to be at the show live streaming the entire show and like have their phones in their faces and like I know artists hate that.

I know fans hate that, I hate that. So it's an interesting question and I don't know exactly how it would look, but I feel like UGC live streams could come into play like on the opposite end of these, like more high production shows or live streams. 

[00:19:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think so too because you, of course, there's always gonna be something for the high production quality camera that you see, and even that I still do believe is under monetized to a lot of extent. I mean, we don't have public numbers, but I could just assume based on what you see from sports and other rights.

But the UGC thing is huge because I just feel like you could have some unique angle. You're getting the experience yourself. I'd love to know like what those tipping numbers do look like. But yeah, I think it's huge because while a tour. I think there may feel like a less scarce aspect for that, and just in the fact that, yeah, you know, Taylor is only doing this once, but she's doing roughly 50 shows, right?

But there's only gonna be two of these times that, at least right now, that Frank Ocean is gonna be doing this headline set and it's, you know, when we release this podcast, it'll be right in this timeframe but like that's it. Like there's scarcity around that people wanna see that they're gonna wanna go back and watch it time and time again.

So I think there's something there. I feel like we start to see some of this where, I'm sure you've seen it. Artists are starting to record one of the shows from their concert and then have that as something that you could watch on Amazon or something you can watch on HBO Max or Hulu. So we're seeing some of that, but I still feel like there's an opportunity to get more fan, like even if you get fan views in there and get them, have some type of participation from when the doc ends up getting sold or whatever that is. I feel like there's a few interesting ways to do it.

[00:21:04] Tati Cirisano: I mean, I even think about like YouTube reaction videos and how like that's such a huge space of people. For all sorts of things, like listening to the new Taylor Swift album and live reacting, and people watched that and I could see a similar thing at a festival like live reaction to the Frank Ocean Set.

And then afterwards you're like telling everyone what you thought. Like again, I don't wanna advocate for more phones at shows, but I feel like people are already doing this and so maybe it's a question of like how to support it and make it a better experience. I don't know.

[00:21:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it'll be interesting to explore. I feel like the other unique thing about Coachella, we can talk a bit about pricing. You mentioned itself the price is 10X'd in 24 years since the first Coachella. But as this festival becomes more expensive as touring itself, especially to see these headliner type artists becomes more expensive.

You talked a lot about, or you mentioned how does that impact the actual experience and how does that impact what fans may wanna do? Like how do they justify buying separate tickets to see just one artist versus being able to see multiple ones in a festival?

What are your thoughts on that?

[00:22:13] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, I mean, I think there's multiple factors kind of pushing toward festivals. Being a kind of solution for a lot of fans today. One is, as I've, you know, shouted from the rooftops in so many of our conversations, like listenership is really fragmenting and people tend to listen to way a wider spread of artists today, making it kind of hard to have a mainstream or a superstar, or harder to have a superstar.

And they're also focusing more on songs often than artists. and then on top of that, costs for pretty much everything are skyrocketing. So yeah, if you're someone who listens to a wide range of artists and you're more likely to be, to kind of center your fandom around songs than artists themselves, and you also are not maybe able to afford going to five different shows anymore, why would you not rather go to see a festival?

And not that festivals aren't expensive, cuz their enormously expensive, especially when you factor in travel and the outfits like we've talked about and all of these things. But I just given all the trends with, listenership that we're seeing, I feel like festivals will become even more popular for consumers.

[00:23:23] Dan Runcie: I also think some of this may shift genre by genre, and to some extent I do look at it. A bit bittersweet to some extent because I look at festivals like, let's look at two of them rolling Loud and this Lovers and Friends Festival that I know had been canceled and I know they, had recently had one rolling loud, of course, is primarily rappers and hip hop artists, lovers and friends is more of that R and B that I think that a lot of millennials and even some,younger Gen X folks grew up with.

Because those festivals exist in that same way. It's great to be able to bring those artists together. I do wonder though, has that dynamic hurt any of those artists impact to be able to generate not just real fans that may definitely wanna see them by buying hard tickets, but how does that help them grow the fan base in a way that doesn't make them just reliant on doing, rolling loud and then just getting an upfront check to do that as opposed to the long-term gains that could come from. Okay, yeah, you may not be performing for as big of an audience relative to your social following, but what could that build up to down the road? And I think even for some of these legacy artists that are doing lovers and friends fest, I remember I was talking with someone, about this recently and they were like, yeah, you know, as much as you like lovers and friends fest like t hose artists are the more indirect way, seeing them all the way they do now. 

[00:24:48] Tati Cirisano: Right, like the festival makes a lot of like on paper, logical sense for consumers, but does it make sense for fandom? Like is it actually helping artists nurture fan bases or is it just feeding more into what I was saying about, you know, a lot of people just kind of listening to songs and not artists So yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense and a lot of these artists that are playing. Those smaller, more niche festivals are playing a ton of them. And if it's like Megan Thee Stallion is playing at 10 different festivals, why are you going to buy a ticket to her tour? Like, I think it could kind of cannibalize some of those sales or like diminish people's interests in, going to the tour as well, or maybe they go and they're like, oh my God, Megan was incredible during her shorter set. I want to go see her on tour like, I don't know, maybe it, goes both ways, but I do think that we might see more and more of those smaller and more niche festivals for all of the reasons that I've mentioned.

Like I think we've seen more and more, there's so many nostalgia festivals now there's so many, like speaking to a very specific scene, like, I forget what it's called, but there was one that was almost like, it was kind of like emo night, but as a festival, like I think we're, I think we're probably gonna see even more of that, and those are gonna be the ones that don't cost you, you know, two grand to go to Coachella.

 and it's maybe a little bit more accessible. so yeah, I think, I think we're probably gonna see more of those type of niche ones.

[00:26:14] Dan Runcie: Do you think that there's certain artists that don't need Coachella? I know we talked about how it's beneficial for headliners, but I thought a lot about the weekend doing Coachella last year, and he was a late edition, Travis Scott was supposed to be the headliner, but after Astroworld and the tragedy there, he didn't do it the weekend does it?

The weekend already had this tour planned. He did that tour in Southern California, he had still performed at SoFi Stadium later on that year. I don't know how the radius and the timeframe works out there, but I'm sure there must have been enough time there. But I wonder if, okay, beyond the $8 million, we could assume that he got from that.

I mean, that's roughly what he would make from one of these stadium rougnights that he would do on his own tour. Did that benefit him in the same way? I don't know. I mean, I think I can clearly see the benefit for Black Pink or even Bad Buddy and others where, hey, this is a statement. You're here on one of the biggest stages we have in the US and you aren't from this country and you don't live here.

There's a big, influence that that can have, but does it make sense for the weekend, right? I know that people have often talked about when would Taylor Swift do it, and whether that's talking about the Super Bowl or even Coachella, but even if we just talk about Coachella even if you paid Taylor 10 million dollars or 12 million dollars, is that going to be more beneficial for her when she can sell out football stadiums herself doing her own thing?

So

[00:27:47] Tati Cirisano: Right. It's been more important for Coachella than it is for Taylor Swift. to be at Coachella, I guess.

[00:27:54] Dan Runcie: I would think so, because I mean, on one hand, yes, we know Coachella is gonna sell out regardless, but they could get more of those fans that may do participate in other, you know, economic, you know, aspects of the festival.

[00:28:08] Tati Cirisano: Totally. Yeah. And they have more control over things and everything. Yeah, I think, you're right, for an artist like The Weeknd or Taylor Swift, it's probably more about like checking off that bucket list item or like having that prestige of performing at Coachella than it is like a material benefit.

I think you're probably right to question that, but then you're right. for an artist like Black Pink, it means a lot more and is probably a lot more impactful in terms of like revenue and fan building and things like that.

[00:28:35] Dan Runcie: Another topic you brought up about festivals right before we had started recording, you're talking about a festival you had went to recently in Knoxville, Tennessee, and it was spread out across different music venues in the city itself. And you also said you're done with festivals on festival grounds.

So can you talk a little bit about that? Cuz I think that could be interesting to dig into a bit.

[00:29:01] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, no, it was perfect timing to do this episode because I went to the antithesis of Coachella last weekend, which is, a festival called Big Ears in Knoxville, Tennessee it was a 10 year anniversary of this festival and in terms of the types of performers there, it was a lot of kind of like experimental and independent and folk music, instrumental artists, like Sun Ra Arkestra was one of the performers.

I also, my favorite performer was a rock band from Niger called Atron Delea, like it was all these kind of like from all over artists and so that was one part of it that was cool. It was very niche and it was very much a scene, kind of like I'm talking about having these like more niche scene oriented festivals and it was held across the venues in Knoxville, of which there are like, 10 or 15, and they're all about a 10 minute walk from each other.

And they also had performances in movie theaters and in cathedrals and in these sort of like non-traditional spaces and. It was just such a more enjoyable experience to me than being locked in a pen in like a parking lot and like, you know, having to pay $10 for water and like feeling very Lord of the Flies for 12 hours like, it was such a better experience and it also struck me how much it could be, you know, a big thing for the venues in that area. It's a big thing for the community and for the culture of the city, like, I don't think you could like turn Coachella into a festival, like across the venues in LA or like New York or something like, I don't think it would work for something at that scale, but it did make me think that, there could be more of, I think, and I'm sure that there are, I'm sure others exist, but that there could be more of these types of festivals that are a bit smaller, a bit more niche, and are held in a city.

And you're also bringing the music to consumers rather than people having to travel to someplace like LA like just having these festivals in smaller cities. I just think there's a big opportunity there and also just to innovate the festival experience in general. Like, why do we have to be, you know, in a parking lot and, you know, all that kind of stuff.

There's been better. Innovations in like, like I know the food at festivals has gotten a lot better over time. It used to be like frozen pizza was like your only option, and now there's like crazy food tents. But yeah, it just got me thinking about like how to innovate the festival experience and what the future of things looks like.

[00:31:23] Dan Runcie: That's a good point because it makes me think of the film festival variety that we see where there's different vibes, but a lot of it is based in existing venues, and it does bring a bit more traffic in general activity to that area, but it's a bit of a different experience, right? Whether it's, you know, Tribeca or even here in San Francisco or in Sundance, I mean you could also get a little bit of a different vibe too, where, okay, if you wanna go skiing in Park City, then you can go to Sundance in January, right? If you want to go on the French Riviera afterward, you can go to Cannes like there's so many different vibes, but I feel like in general, when people think of music festivals, it is wearing that Coachella outfit and being somewhere in an open field with not a lot of shade and, you know, like that type of thing. So I feel like it couldn't then, yeah, it could just bring a little bit more variety to some of these things. And the fact that it already exists is good, but it could probably bring a bit more, you know, boom, to some of these other areas that may want something unique and ideally, if they're not overlapping on headliners, which is another thing that I know is an ongoing challenge with these festivals. I feel like when Outkast did their whole festival run where I forgot how many they did in 2014, that was the first year that stuck out to me where I was like, oh, some of these artists are just going boom, boom, boom.

Same festival. Same festival. So you have that some artists that would do it in the same years, but then you also have some artists that will just come back and do the same festival time and time again, and it really isn't that much different.

What are your thoughts on that? 

[00:33:02] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. I wanna say one more thing about the big years thing, really quick before that question, which is, how that kind of festival could expand the audience, like the tam of festival goers like I would say about half of the people at Big Year's were 55 plus, these are not people that are going to Coachella, you know, like, I mean, maybe they are, but I, I think there's other demographics and other age groups that would enjoy going to a festival if there was a bit of a different experience.

So I feel like there's a lot of groups that were not hitting with the traditional festival market. and like this venue model could be kind of like that. but yeah, in terms of festival lineups getting a lot more homogenous, I kind of can't help but attribute it to the fragmentation trend that we've been talking about and how much harder it is to create a new mainstream superstar today. Like, y eah, I think that a lot of festivals are finding it harder and harder to find these kind of crowd pleasingheadline acts and there aren't as many new ones coming up. And it also seems like, festivals are kind of continuing to dip into these legacy acts from times when the industry was less congested and less fragmented like the Glastonbury lineup, it's Yeah, Arctic Monkeys, Elton John and Guns N' Roses. And it's like this could be the lineup a decade ago. So it does feel like not only are festival lineups becoming more homogenous, but a lot of them are tending to book legacy acts rather than newer, mainstream stars. Maybe because there aren't as many newer mainstream stars, I don't know.

[00:34:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that, that headline spot is probably where some of, I don't even wanna say contention, but some of that decision making can lie in, maybe a lot of this applies to festivals that aren't like Coachella a bit because they are a bit more reliant on the headliners themselves, and because of that, they're more likely to make, what they feel is safer picks and unfortunately, a lot of these safer picks end up being more male, more white, and more legacy acts that have likely been there before. So if they're like, okay, well we knew that Arctic Monkeys were, you know, huge in 2012, then let's bring them back in so we can try to command some of that same audience that is like, well, you also have local stars and others around the world that don't fit into those same categories that could do it. But they feel like that's a risk, unfortunately, and then if they do invite those folks, it's for less money and their name is smaller and they're not presented as a headliner in the same way. So I think that's one of the downsides of it.

And the fact, I think fragmentation plays into this, cuz I think, you know, regardless of who you are, it has just become even harder to have artists break out. The artists that do break out, they're more likely to maybe break out within their particular region. It's harder to have that same global appeal in that same way and I think we've seen maybe a few outlier examples of that more recently.

Especially when you look at Coachella's lineup this year with Burna Boy and Black Pink and Bad Bunny all having prominent placement in their festival. I'm curious what that looks like in future years. How do you maintain that? Because even from that perspective, yeah, there's other artists that are huge, but they've already kind of gotten some of the biggest ones that we've at least had at this particular moment.

But there's others. I'm curious. I forget if Dual Lipa has headlined one of the big, huge festivals in the world, I don't think she has yet, right?

[00:36:41] Tati Cirisano: That's a good question. She hasn't headlined Coachella, she definitely had a big set at Glastonbury, but I don't know if she headlined. I don't know. 

[00:36:48] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. I feel like that may have been a few years ago, but I forget if that was like before or after, 

[00:36:53] Tati Cirisano: Oh yeah. 

[00:36:53] Dan Runcie: of Nostalgia tour and then after that, just thinking of other artists that have gotten huge in the past recent years, whether you have Billy Eilish or SZA, I mean, there's a few but.

I'd be interested to see whether or not those names have become headliners, maybe we're seeing some of these festivals do this now, where outside Lasnier, which is, you know, right here in my backyard of San Francisco, their most recent poster. Instead of having three headliners, one per day, they have 10 artists that have big font size names, and then they have the other 60 or 70 that all have, you know, smaller, but it's all kind of the same.

And, you know, you just look at the names of these artists. I'll just say right now for outside Lasnier, Kendrick Lamar, Foo Fighters, Odessa, Lana Del Ray, the 1975, Megan Thee Stallion, Zed, Janelle Monáe, Maggie Rogers, and Fisher. and I mean, I'm, I'm not shy to be mean, I'm not trying to call anyone out, but there's certain artists on that I just mentioned there that would not headline outside lands if it was presented as, oh, these are the three headliners. And they may not even be on that second row either, but. Is that in some way reflective of where things are, where it may make it easier, and of course you could probably guess based on the order of those names, Kendrick Lamar's name is at the top, you know, of this list. But still like, is this some type of reflection of this fragmentation where you have all these different genres, most of these artists, more modern, current artists, except for, you know, Foo Fighters, a bit more legacy that has continued to play on but I wonder how often we'll see that with other festivals that are maybe closer to outside lands and Coachella where, you know, still a major huge festival, but they're not getting the same headliners that Coachella is.

[00:38:42] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. No, I think, you're absolutely right and I think we're gonna see that type of lineup more, at the same time as we're seeing that, there are fewer of these like Beyonce level mainstream stars, we're seeing a growth in the middle tier. We're seeing a lot more of these like, cult stars and also artists on that list who are huge but aren't really at the level of, you know, some of like Madonna or you know, these artists of the past, these icons of the past.

So I think it makes more sense rather than having, you know, three headliners to have like six, not as huge artists still have a really big following. I think that makes a lot more sense, for the festival, the people going, and I think we will start to see more of that just because of the way that fragmentation is playing out.

Yeah. I also wonder, when we're gonna start to see like the millennial version of legacy artists start to perform, like, was funny when I saw like the lovers and friends line up, I was like, oh my God. when you start getting an nostalgia festival marketed to you, that's when you know you're getting old.

That's when you know you're no longer like the youngest And like, I wonder, when we'll start to maybe tap into like 90s and 2000s era. Sort of icons, like I would love to see like Missy Elliot headline, Coachella, like that type of thing. And I wonder if that's gonna be like the next step once we've exhausted all the times that like Foo Fighters can possibly headline a festival 

[00:40:09] Dan Runcie: I know, right? Like 

[00:40:10] Tati Cirisano: Who are also that era but, you know, what I mean, like. 

[00:40:13] Dan Runcie: For sure. For sure. Yeah, because I feel like we saw. Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg were headliners maybe around 10 years ago, and then they had brought, the Tupac hologram out infamously. You remember that? So, we did have that. And of course, you know, that kind of reminds me of the Super Bowl that, from a couple years ago.

But I do feel like there's a sweet spot there, given. Where Usher is right now, the popularity of his residency, I wouldn't be surprised if he jumps back on this circuit and he's doing less of the lovers and friends and he's doing more of the headlining major music festivals 

[00:40:49] Tati Cirisano: He would be amazing. 

[00:40:50] Dan Runcie: There's a huge opportunity there.

Yeah. Great performer. I think he still does great stuff. I wanted to see if I can go make it to Vegas to go catch this, residency before it ends. But yeah, I I think that there is a sweet spot there for that. I mean, you think about other artists, I think Justin Timberlake has probably done some of these already, so we've seen him do them.

I don't know if Britney Spears would probably perform in that same way. But we'll see. I feel like there's a number of artists that they can tap into from that era.

[00:41:18] Tati Cirisano: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

[00:41:21] Dan Runcie: And yeah. I guess before we wrap things up, are there any predictions you have then for let's predict what 2024 would look like? Three headliners. Who would you think would most likely be a headliner for Coachella 2024? 

[00:41:37] Tati Cirisano: I would say SZA, probably, I would say Dua Lipa I think she makes a lot of sense as a headliner too, just in terms of like how, I hate like, I don't wanna say like crowd pleasing or mainstream, but like, cause I feel like that sounds like I'm giving her shade and I'm not. I think she's incredibly talented, but like she would please a, a big swath of people with her music and she's a cool performer and she has some time now, I think, since she's not touring. but, okay. So Du Lipa, SZA, This is about to be an all female headliners. This is a bit of wishful thinking, but I would love to see, cause I don't know if she's ready for this yet, but I would love to see Rosalia, headline Coachella.

I think she's getting there and I actually saw her in 2019 at Coachella. She was playing the tiniest stage ever and she treated it like she was in a stadium. Like the production quality and the dancers and just like everything she put into it was incredible. And she's risen a lot over the past few years.

So, yeah, that's my trio.

[00:42:35] Dan Runcie: Nice. Nice. All right. We have one in common. We have SZA, so I'm gonna go SZA, Madonna, and Usher. I think that's gonna be my prediction, I feel like, Madonna has this tour coming up. Maybe she'll cap things off with a Coachella performance. But I feel like yeah, if you're gonna have this tour, I forget the name of it, you're gonna go back through all her eras.

I feel like there's something unique there, so, so, 

yeah. I know, I know. And we'll have to revisit this. We still have a number of festival lineups to get announced this year, so we'll have to check back in and see how do these continue to develop, what continues to shape in how these festivals continue to evolve over time.

So tati, this was great. Thanks for coming on.

[00:43:17] Tati Cirisano: Yeah, Thanks for having me. Oh, it's a pleasure.

[00:43:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah.

[00:43:20] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead.

Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2636 no Rerun: The Future Of Music Business With Economist Will Page https://www.trapital.com/podcast This week, I’m running back an interview I did with Will Page in 2022. It was our most popular episode of 2022 and we talked about a lot of topics that are still timely and still being debated right now in the industry.  One of the most unique insights into the state of the music business today doesn’t come from a record label exec. Not from an agent. Not from an artist. No, it comes from Scottish economist Will Page, who served that role for Spotify from 2012 to 2019 — a period of explosive growth for the streaming giant. But if you ask Page about streaming’s future, he’s not nearly as optimistic as the rest of the industry. “The party has to come to an end,” as he told me on this episode of Trapital. Page believes the music industry is transitioning from a “herbivore market” to a “carnivore” one. In other words, future growth will not come from brand-new customers — it’ll come from the streaming services eating into each other’s market share. Not only has subscriber counts possibly tapped out in Page’s opinion, but streaming services have also put a ceiling on revenues by charging only $9.99, a price that hasn’t budged in 20 years despite giant leaps in technology and music catalog size.   That against-the-grain prediction was one of many Will shared with me during our in-depth interview. But he has plenty more research- and experience-backed thoughts on touring, vinyl records, Web 3.0, and everything in between. Believe me, this is an interview you don’t want to miss. Here’s everything we covered:  [3:21] The Global Business of Music [4:15] Vinyl Records $1.5 Billion Recovery [08:54] Will’s Bearish View About The Future Of Streaming [14:46] Ongoing Price War Between Streaming Services [18:33] The Changing Economics Of Music Touring  [21:44] Performing At Festivals Vs. Tours  [24:57] The Evolution Of Music Publishing [28:34] How Music Revenue Gets Distributed To Publishers [32:41] What Does A “Post-Spotify Economy” Look Like?  [33:44] The Current Business Landscape Of Hip-Hop  Listen to Will’s mix right here: https://www.mixcloud.com/willpagesnc/we-aint-done-with-2021/ Check out Will’s Podcast, Bubble Trouble, where he breaks down how financial markets really work. Read Will’s book, Tarzan Economics: Eight Principles for Pivoting Through Disruption. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Will Page, @willpageauthor  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Will Page: When you have 110 million households, and you have more than 110 million subscribers in the United States, then we are in a race to the finishing line before herbivore turn into carnivores. In oil, we have this expression called peak oil, which is we know that we've extracted more oil in the world than is left to extract an oil that's left is gonna be even more costly to get out the ground. I think we're in peak subscriber territory where at some point soon we're gonna start seeing growth happen through stealing other customers as opposed to finding your own. [00:00:29] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:01:12] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: For today's episode, let's revisit the most popular episode that we did in 2022. That's the conversation that I had with Will Page. Will Page is the Former Chief Economist for Spotify, the author of Pivot, and Advisor consultant to many of the companies that are leading the music industry today. In this conversation, Will and I talked about a lot of topics that are still timely and still being debated right now in the industry. The price of streaming. Streaming, especially for Spotify, is still $9.99 in the. Pound and Euro in many markets. But Spotify wants to keep that price for several reasons. They want to continue to grow as much as they can. They also want something in return from the record labels. They want some type of concession if they're going to raise their prices. But as we've heard, the push has got louder and louder from the record label CEOs that want that price to increase. So we talk about some of the origins of that debate and where that may be. Then we also talk about some of the competition among the digital service providers as well, whether it's Apple Music, Spotify, Amazon Music, and others. We talk about how it's transitioning from a herbivore market to a carnivore market now that the market's getting saturated. You probably heard that term a bit over the past year that originated from this podcast. So we talk about that a number of other timely things and more we'll eventually have will back on the podcast soon. But this is a nice precursor to refresh the memory a bit and with some of the topics that are still going on in music today. Here's our episode. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:48] Dan Runcie: Some of the work you've done for a company that is very heavily focused on playlist, which is Spotify, and I think more broadly looking at the streaming era we're in right now. This is a great time to chat because we just saw the IFPI results and streaming as continuing to grow as we've seen. But I feel like you probably spotted a few interesting trends about where things are heading, and I think that's a question mark for a lot of people. Streaming continues to grow, but how far can it grow? What are we seeing in terms of differences within genres or regions? What are some of the things that stuck out [00:03:21] Will Page: to you? I'll give you a couple. The first one is the global business. Well, last time I looked at United Nations, I think there's 208 countries in the world. The global yearbook that we're discussing here has, I think 58. So we have to be careful what we define as global. I think Africa's clubbed together as one continent and where they need to work on that. But I think the global business is growing, but it's also becoming more American. So if you go back to when Spotify launched America, 22, 20 3% of the business round about just over a fifth. Today it's 37%. So we have seen the business grow and become more American, and that raises questions, you know, economic questions like globalization, questions, should poor countries catch up with rich ones? The theory says yes. The reality often says no. So we're seeing this kind of lopsided growth where the business is growing, but it's growing in favor of an American market. The biggest country is growing at the fastest. That's a positive problem, but I just wanna flag it, which is, that's not how it was supposed to play out. And then the second thing I'd wanna point to as well is just vinyl. this vinyl recovery is just, well, I don't know how much my bank balance is responsible for this vinyl recovery, but I'm telling you, Is define the laws of gravity. Now, we're now looking at vinyl being worth one and a half billion dollars, which is more than it's been worth in the past 30 years. It's worth more than CDs, cassettes, and downloads, the three formats that we're supposed to declare that vinyl is dead. But there's two things you can kind of cut out the vinyl recovery, which I think will be of real interest to your audience. Firstly, on the consumer side. I saw a survey which suggested that the majority, just over half of all vinyl buyers today, don't own a record player. I mean, something's cooking here. So what are we buying it for? I'll extend that as well. the cost of wall frames to frame vinyl on your wall often cost more than the record itself. So I'm willing to pay more for vinyl to you know, framed on my wall than I am for the record. And by the way, I don't have a record player. There's a lot of people who will tick those bizarre boxes. But on the crater side, something else is interesting. This'll take a little bit of working through. But if we think about the streaming model, it's monetizing consumption. That's what it does. So if there's an album with 10 songs, three killer and seven filler songs, and an album, and let's say Dan Runcie wrote the Three Killer Tracks and Will Page, he wrote the Seven Duff Filler Tracks. On streaming, Dan might walk away with all the money and I'll walk away from none because we're only streaming the killer tracks and nobody's touching the filler. As the album model kicks out from vinyl, I would get 70% of the cash. That's crazy because nobody knows what's being consumed and it's a lot of cash. If I just kind of do some rough math here of a million fans streaming your hip hop record on Spotify, and let's say they're stream. 200 times in a month when the album drops, you only need 20,000 of them of that million to make the same amount of money from vinyl than you would do from streams, which is entirely plausible. But then how do you pay the copyright owners from those songs on an album is very different from how you pay them on a stream. If you go back to the late seventies, the, one of the most successful records of all time was Saturday Night Fever, the Bee Ges and a bunch of other people. It's crazy to think that Ralph McDonald's Calypso strut his record there, which nobody has listened to, got the same royalty as staying alive by the Bee Gees because it was a vinyl record. So to reiterate, on the consumer, I don't know how many of these vinyl records are being played, and on the crater side, it raises questions about how these craters are gonna get paid. [00:06:53] Dan Runcie: That's a good point book that I don't think is being talked about as much about the vinyl search because there's so much like wow, about just how much is being purchased. I think I even saw the stat that Adele's 30 album sold 8,000 cassettes. Or there was stuff tied from Stat about that, and I think the similar thing that you said, lines up having those people actually still own a watman or whatever type of cassette player that they have. So I do think that that is something that probably there could be a deeper analysis on because. A lot of the people that write the filler songs, how do they feel? Or whether you're a songwriter, whether you, you know what's behind it, especially when you know that there's so much clear path to be able to determine, okay, this is going to be the lead single, this is what we're gonna push most from this album. It really shifts things even more to where things are going in terms of a single market. Like the way that people have talked about pop music for a while now, right? And I guess that brings a, brings me back to the streaming trends that you mentioned. Overall, we're in this area, as you mentioned, streaming itself, the US penetration is grown from 22%, I believe you said is now through your 35, 37, somewhere around there. But where do we go from here because as you've written before, the price of music streaming, at least the monthly subscription hasn't necessarily been increasing. The average revenue per user overall because of the international growth is decreased, and you have plenty of people that are still trying to get there, fair share of what they can. It's streaming so. It's in like five, 10 years from now. If you could see into the future, where do you think streaming distribution is? I think the good thing is that people have smartphones and there's more and more growth from that perspective. So streaming is going to grow, but on the other hand, the economics of these things do have some theoretical goal point where we've maximized the global penetration of this. What do you think about, where that is going? [00:08:54] Will Page: Let me unpack it in two different lanes. Firstly, I'll deal with the saturation point question, which is, you know, how long can this party keep going for? It's three o'clock in the morning, who's gonna call time on it? And then secondly, I wanna deal with the pricing point on its own lane as well, but on saturation point, you're now in a situation where I put it as in America, we've had herbivores. We've had Spotify growing Apple, growing Amazon, growing YouTube, growing. Everybody's reporting growth, Pandora even is growing. What we are gonna see some point soon is carnivores. Which is Apple will grow by eating into Spotify's growth, or YouTube will grow by eating into Amazon's growth. So the key question we gotta ask is when do we go from the herbivore market? We're in today to a carnival market of tomorrow, and I output Spotify's US subscriber number around about 45 million, Apple at 49 million. We dump on top YouTube. Amazon, Pandora, you're well past 110-120 million. Now, that's important because I reckon and there's around about 110 million qualifying households in America that has at least one person who could pay for a streaming service. This is crucial because if you look at what Apple One's bundle is doing $30 a month for news, music, television, gaming, fitness, and two turbos of storage per six account holder. It's a household proposition they're saying to the home, I got you convenience. Everyone under this roof is covered with Apple products. So when you have 110 million households, and you have more than 110 million subscribers in the United States, then we are in a race to the finishing line before herbivore turn into carnivores. In oil, we have this expression called peak oil, which is we know that we've extracted more oil in the world than is left to extract an oil that's left is gonna be even more costly to get out the ground. I think we're in peak subscriber territory where at some point soon we're gonna start seeing growth happen through stealing other customers as opposed to finding your own. So I just wanna put that warning flag out there. Just now we're partying like it's 1989, fine, but at some point the party has to come to an end and gross is gonna come at the expense of other players that then flips, you know, from the A side to the B side of this record. We flip it over to price and then the pricing debate is interesting. I published this work called MELD Economics,uh, which we can cite on your, your wonderful website there. Which was to look at 20 year history of the nine 19 price point, and its crazy story back in the 3rd of December, 2001, over 20 years ago. Today Rhapsody got its license for a $9.99 offering, which had 15,000 songs. First point. The origins of 9 99 bizarrely date back to the Blockbuster rental card. Some coed up label executive would've said, if it cost 9 99 to rent videos from Blockbuster, that's what it should cost to rent music. Secondly, there was only 15,000 songs with limited use case. There was no smartphone back then. No apps, no algorithms. That was all a weird welded into the future. So you just. 9 99 for 15,000 songs. We are now chatting in early April, 2022, and it's still 9 99 in dollar in Euro and Sterling, but we're offering a hundred million songs. That's the crazy thing. So in the article, Mel Economics, what I do is I strip inflation out in the case of the uk, 9 99 has fallen down to six pounds, 30 pence. Remember, you know, Family Plan makes music cheaper too. If 2.3 people are paying $40.99, that's six pounds 50. There's way too many numbers in this conversation for Trapital, but still we'll stick with it. Student plan makes it cheaper too. So music in real terms, has fallen to six pound 30, which is less than a medium glass of Malbec wine, so 175 milliliters of Malbec wine costs than a hundred million songs, which is available offline on demand without adverts. That for me, is certified bonkers. I don't understand what we've done. We're offering more and more, and we're charging less and less, and you only have to leave the ears to the eyes on the video streaming to see what they're doing on the other side of the fence. Netflix has got me from $7.99 to $8.99 to $12.99, to now $14.90. In the space of 15 months, and I haven't blinked Disney plus. The reason I'm paying $4.99 on Disney Plus is because I paid $19.99 to get Cruella live on demand. So they're charging more and more, but only offering part of the wells repertoire set for eyeball content. We are charging less and less and offering more and more of the wells. Ear hole content, so it's like two ships passing each other in the night. It's a very interesting dilemma. It's intriguing because when you look at the way that video is structured, as you mentioned, you have all these price increases, and I think Netflix for some plans is, you know, $18.99, it's approaching that level, but in music, It's this thing where, yeah, there's some price differences where I think I saw today that Amazon music is increasing a dollar, but that's from $7.99 for prime subscribers to that being $8.99. So we still have to cross that. I wonder if I won't cost that. [00:13:57] Dan Runcie: I mean, honestly, I feel like there's something here because when I think about this, I think about a few things. Obviously you do have this fight where the artists wanna get more and the labels wanna get more, you know, not just for the artists, but for themselves. And obviously Spotify wants to earn more logically. You would think, okay, if you increase the price and people just understated the economics of what's likely. If Spotify increased up to 1299 a month for the standard base rate, how many folks would boing. But to your point earlier, I have to imagine that the fear is looking at the trends and where that penetration is. If they jump up to $12.99, then they're going to lose those customers to the other streaming services that haven't jumped there yet because of that thought of, you know, shifting to that carnivore mentality of competing with each other. So because for roughly 80% of the content that they do offer, it is roughly the same between each of these services. It's led it to be more of a price war then in video streaming, where most of them do have some differentiated content. [00:15:02] Will Page: A hundred percent. And two things to bolt onto your very eloquent points there. And firstly, let's just remind ourselves that Apple launched superior sound quality. You may remember the, commercial of Lossless audio. You buy your AirPods, which cost two years of Apple Music or Spotify to put in your ears and you get superior sound quality, the subtext underneath it said at no extra cost. That was the actual marketing message. So there again, we are improving the offer we're supplying more but we're charging less in real terms. And that's a really interesting kind of point kind of cut into. And the second thing, and we should get balance into this discussion cause it's delicates, we have to remind ourselves that, you know, there's 120 million subscribers in America. There's still another 120 million to go, but we know they're not that interested in paying for music because they haven't paid yet. Now the best way to attract them is not necessarily to raise price. So we gotta remember that there's still, you know, oil to extract. It's not gonna be easy oil to extract, but the best way to get to it might not be to raise price, but there's a catch to this. I can remember in the early nineties, right up to 2010 piracy, ripping the asset out of this business and concept promoters were saying. We love piracy because the kids are getting music for free so they can pay more on concert tickets. I wonder if now they're saying we love Spotify because they don't raise prices, which means we can raise ours. This is not a discussion of how to rip off the customer. This is a discussion about value exchange and I just wonder whether recorded music is leaving value on the table. That's the key point to hammer on. [00:16:32] Dan Runcie: That's a good point. And I think that also made me think too, could there be some notion of maintaining the perception of Spotify as something that still has high pricing power and still has high consumer surplus, because then that helps the stock price. And then seeing that the major labels are all invested in Spotify itself. It's about like having that perception of, you know, the future growth and whatever it is. So what you just said made me think about that being a factor potentially too. [00:17:02] Will Page: A hundred percent. And of course, you've gotta distinguish the Spotify Apple music cost structure from that of the video streaming companies in that they have a kind of variable cost. You double your business, you double your cost base. Whereas Netflix, you jump up costs and you have, you jump up your revenue, you know, you raise me from 7 99 to 14 point 99, the cost of that content was fixed. And I'm still consuming the Fresh Prince of Bel Air on Netflix to this day. That was a fixed cost deal that he did to get that content and that's margin to Netflix. So, you know, the cost structure matters to this one as well. [00:17:33] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And you mentioned live music there, and I think there's a lot to think about from that perspective. I Feel like we're in this post pandemic. I mean, we're still not out of it, but we're in this post quarantine era, more artists than ever are trying to tour and get out there trying to capture what's there, but also from an economic perspective from that. Most people are only gonna go to a certain number of live events per year, and we have this 18 to 24 month run coming up where everyone wants to make up for what they couldn't do in the past two years. How will that shift, not just who then goes on tour together, and then how they may split those profits, what the availability looks like? And if they're not able to do what they may have done on tour in the late 2010s, how does that affect future touring? I think that's a piece of it that, you know, we still haven't necessarily seen the impact of, but it just feels inevitable based on where things are heading. You did it. [00:18:33] Will Page: Absolutely. Now on touring, I was lucky and I gotta do some great work on the UK live industry, and I can only speak for the UK here. I know a lot of your audience in the US but I think these points will carry. The first one was to work out how much is spent on concert tickets in Britain during the, the normal year of 2019, and the answer was 1.7 billion pounds. That's more than was spent on recorded music a lot more than was spent on recorded music, which makes sense, you know, you pay 120 pounds on the Spotify account, you're paying 240 pounds to go to Redding Festival. Two days in the muddy field in Redding, cost more than 365 days of all the wells. But what I noticed there was the industry is changing in its growth. I showed that between 2012, the year of the London Olympics and 2019, The live music industry in this country had exploded and grow, but it was lopsided. All the gro came from stadiums, festivals, and to lesser extent arenas. The theaters, the 2000, 3000 capacity theaters like the Philmore West over where you are, they were getting crushed. They were actually shrinking in size. So we have this lopsided live music industry, which is going right in the direction of the head as opposed to the long tail, the stadiums, the festivals, the arenas, as opposed to the theaters, the clubs, the university venues. And that's interesting cuz that's gonna change the dynamics of how you make money from live. Do you go from doing your tour of an album to doing a tour of your festivals for that record? And what does that mean? The cost structure for the insurance and all those things that bands have to consider when they're hitting the road. I mean, credit to capital. You've had some great podcasts recently on this topic, but as, a big rethink coming along in this live music market, it's not the same as we had back in 2019. It's changed fundamentally, and it is the breadwinner for most artists' income. I think it makes up about 70% of what an artist has to live for comes from the road that vanished. How do we get it back? [00:20:22] Dan Runcie: I feel like Cardi B has been a good. Case study on this specific point here, right? It's been four years now since she released an album, and she's yet to go on a true proper tour in that time. That said, she's done plenty of festivals where she's earned more on those festival guarantees that she likely would on tour. She's also done many private events where she's likely earned that save amount, if not more. So there's a whole economic argument to be made, and I think there's also some risk involved too, right? I think that festivals do give you the opportunity to. Get that major bag, you get the high number, the revenue that comes through, but maybe your fans will be a little bit more forgiving if your set piece at your festival isn't the most extravagant thing, especially if you're not the headliner at it. But on a tour, I think it changes. It's a little bit more pressure, everyone wants to see that Instagramable or talkable moment to then sell future tickets and just the production cost and everything with travel. It still is something that is very worthwhile, but I think we've just started to see some of that segmentation there. Especially for someone like her. I would add residencies too. I know she's done a few different things in Vegas here and there, but yeah. Still yet to do that 30 city worldwide tour. [00:21:44] Will Page: Yeah, I think you gotta think with your head and your heart. Your head says like you point out the economics favors festival. Your back line's there, your insurance is covered. Travel's already covered. I have numerous hip hop bands perform at festivals in Europe, and that's one of the big advantages. The costs are all taken care of by the festival, but your heart says, what does that do to intimate relationships with your fans? [00:22:05] Dan Runcie: Right? [00:22:05] Will Page: I mean, you're staring at 50,000 strangers in the muddy field. That's different from staring at 2000 friends in the Fillmore West. So the head and the heart's gotta come into play here. What I would add though is that there are rumors, I would say here in the UK at least, that the promoters are saying, I'll pay you a ton of money to perform at the festival to make sure that you don't go on tour. And that's an interesting situation. If you build one too many houses, you collapse a property market. If you have one too many tours or one too many festivals, you collapse live music industry. So there's ways in which people are trying to restrain the market to festival. At the expense of the theaters. That certainly is coming through in the data. We're seeing the theater business take a kick in while festivals go on a roll. [00:22:45] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because I think about, you look at the artists that are touring stadiums now, whether it's your Taylor Swift's or Beyonce's, they wouldn't be able to do that if they didn't have the individual tours at smaller venues when they were starting out. Being able to build that intimate fan base, like you said, like you get to that point, right? And I do think that as good as festivals can be, it is much more of a lucrative cash grab that is, I don't wanna say necessarily short-term thinking, but I think you ideally wanna have some type of balance there, right? Get the big bag that you can get from something else. It's almost no different. I think running a business, right? Okay, sure. You may be able to do a speaking fee or do some type of, you know, thing here or there, but hey, you can't do that all the time, especially if it's not an audience you're tapped into. You still need to do some of the things that could set you up for the long game. [00:23:37] Will Page: Yeah, and there's an infographic that I'll share with you to pass onto your audience here. I wrote an article in The Economist called Smells like Middle-Aged Spirit as opposed to Teen. Nice play on Words hat to Dave Gro and Kurt Cobain. But what I was looking at was the average age of festival headliners over time. This is a du pessimistic Scottish economist. This is what you do with your spare time. Okay, so in the nineties when radio head to Glastonbury, the average age of a festival headliner is 25, 26 years old. all these hot bands were coming through the Brit Pop era. You know, there was so much development of new talent. By 2012, I think it had got up to 58 and I got a lot of criticism for that article. But then Glastonbury that year had the WHO and Lionel Richie headlining, which I think was 17 and 73 years old apart. And then you can see the conveyor belt problem, which is okay, it's a quick cash grab. It makes sense. But that's not the conveyor belt of how we developed talent for tomorrow. That's just how we cash in our chips at the casino today. So it does raise questions, I'm not saying it's like the doomsday scenario here, but we just need a healthy balance of, you know, a seeded for future growth and then the big stage for exploiting that moment today, which could be the pyramid stage at Glastonbury, the headlights stage at Monterey over in the States. So I just think we're getting a little bit lopsided here. We're a bit short termist and how this business needs to develop. [00:24:57] Dan Runcie: Agreed on that. Switching gears a bit. One thing that you wrote recently that stuck out to me, you did this deep dive on music publishing, and I think this is another area that kind of has some of that short-term, long-term perspective on it, because you look at the people who get the share of the copyright pie, at least today, and from music streaming perspective, a lot of that has been much more in the favor of, the recorded side and then the people getting compensated on the recording side. But with that, the songwriters and the publishers, a lot of them necessarily in that timeframe, didn't get a lot of that. But I think in this wave now where we're seeing more catalog deals and we're seeing people understand the value of that, things may be starting to shift and there's likely other things as well. But what do you think about the way that the publishing side has been seen in what the future opportunities are for that side of the business? [00:25:54] Will Page: Well, the way that labels and publishing were taught to me in terms of what makes them distinct from one another goes back to my Aunt Dorian Loader, who worked in the music business from 1959 at Deca Records, right the way through to 2012. She ran Enzyme records with Nigel Grange, Lucian's Half-Brother. They were responsible for Shead O'Connor, who sold 11 million albums based on the Prince cover. And she once said to me, will, this is how the music industry works. The record label pays for your drugs and the publishing pays for your pension. I just kind of, that's a nice succinct way of summarizing how the business works. That was then, this is now clearly times have changed, I think, but it reminds us about, you know, what makes the business different. And then that piece of work that you cite is something called global value of copyright, where I'm really keen to educate this. Regardless of whether you're coming from a label perspective, a manager, an artist, a songwriter, there's a C with a circle on it called copyright. We get that, and it involves record labels. It involves sound exchange. It involves artists. It involves ascap, BMI, GMR, Czek. It involves publishers, David Israeli, and the great folks at the NNPA. It Put the whole thing together for me, all this spaghetti and strain it out. And what I was able to show was that in 2020, copyright was worth 32.5 billion, way bigger than what you've just heard from IFPI way bigger than what Czek would say. This is the entire thing. And the split was about 65% labels, 35% to the publishers. Now, if you go way back to 2001, when we used to sell CDs by weight of pate. In the cocaine capitalism days, you know, record labels back then. The split was much more in favor of labels, you know, more than three quarter labels, less than a quarter to the publishers. And what we've seen happen in the years in between is quite an interesting story. Labels went from boom time with CDs to bust with piracy, and now they're booming again with streaming. And the inverse, the opposite happened. Publishers as labels went bust. ASCAP, BMI kept on reporting record breaking collections, so you have a hair tore toys analogy here of labels going really fast and falling off a cliff. Publishers just trundled along with record breaking, not massive record breaking collections, but it kept on growing their bases. So, the questions these throw up is what type of industry are we moving towards? Are we going back to a business model which paid labels over three quarters of the pie and publishes less than a quarter, and is that a good or a bad thing? Or in this post Spotify economy where we're seeing companies like Peloton, Twitch, TikTok, come to the business, is that gonna have a completely different balance? Now why this matters to your audience is not just on the crater side, but also on the investment side. You pointed out catalog valuations. We can dig into that if you want, but just a high level point is, let's say that in a few years time, I go into my back cave again, calculate the global value of copyright, and instead of 32 and a half billion, it's 40 billion. I'll come on Trapital show, I'll make an exclusive announcement. Copyright today is worth 40 billion, seven and a half billion new dollars. Have come into this business, I want the audience to start thinking about who gets what share of that marginal new dollar. Is that gonna split publishing side or is that gonna split label side? And if you're investing in catalogs, be the master rights, be the author rights that really bears, there's a huge educational drive here to understand the balance of this business of copyright. [00:29:15] Dan Runcie: So there's a few things you've said there that I wanted to dig into. Of course, for streaming Spotify and its competitors around 75%. Is going to the recorded side a quarter to publishing. But from a breakdown, what does that look like for the TikToks, the Roblox and the Pelotons? What does that share of revenue from those plays look like? [00:29:38] Will Page: So, The best way I could do this is if I just talk about ratios. There's three Rs in this business. There's share of revenue, there's ratio in this rights pool. They mean different things. Most experts get confused. With these three Rs, I'm gonna stick to ratios. That is, if I give the label a dollar, how much do I give the publisher, the songwriter, this collective management organization. So we stick to the conventional streaming model Today, I would say that if you give the record label a dollar, you're giving the publishing side of the. 24 cents, you know, a decent chunk of change. But still the pure cousin of the record label on YouTube, I think it could be as high as 35 cents, 40 cents even. Because there's a sync right? Involved in those deals. And then when you take that observation of imposing the sync right into deal, and you expand it to Peloton or TikTok, potentially even more, and then you can flip it and say, well, what happens if the future of TikTok is karaoke? Not saying it's gonna happen, but it's not implausible if that was the case. That favors publishers even more. So there's all these weird ways that the business could develop, which could favor one side of the fence. The labels and the artists continue getting three quarters of the cash or the other side of the fence. Publishers and songwriters start enforcing their rights and getting. A more balanced share and that that's what we need to look out for when we're investing incorporates. That's what we need to look out for. If you're a singer and a songwriter and you're trying to understand your royalty statements [00:30:57] Dan Runcie: mm-hmm. Well, like how much higher do you think? I mean, if you had to put a percentage on it for the TOS or the Pelotons, and I guess as well, you made me think of sync deals, right? Like for the folks that are selling, or their song gets placed on one of these hulu series or one of these HBO Max series, like what does that ratio look like, you know, from a ballpark for those. [00:31:20] Will Page: So I think a 50 50 split would be the upper bend of the goal. If, if a song is placed in a Hulu TV show or you know, an artist I've worked with for many years, Yu Dito Brazilian composer, his songs now in this famous easy Jet commercial over here in Europe. The artists and the publisher would see around a 50 50 split of those revenues. Now, would that happen in the world of streaming? Unlikely. But I think if you can get to a stage where you're giving the record label a dollar and the publisher 50 cents as a ratio, and I've gotta repeat the word ratio here, you know, that's potentially achievable with this post Spotify economy. I don't think it's gonna happen with the business we're looking at today, but I think that's a potential scenario for the business developing tomorrow. That's the thing. If I can quote Ralph Simon, a, a longtime mentor to me, he always says, this industry is always about what's happening next. And then he goes on to say, it always has been. It's a great reminder of just, you know, we're restless souls in this business. We've achieved this amazing thing in the past 10 years with streaming. Got there. Banked there what's coming next, who would've thought Peloton would've had a music licensing department 18 months ago? Now they're like a top 10 account for major labels. [00:32:30] Dan Runcie: It's impressive. It really is. And I think it's a good reminder because anytime that you get a little bit too bullish and excited about what the current thing is, it's, we always gotta be thinking about what's next. And you mentioned a few times about a post Spotify economy. What does that look like from your perspective? I think there's likely a number of things that we've already talked about with more of these other B2B platforms or where these other platforms in general, having licensing deals. But when you say, or what do you think about post Spotify economy? What comes to mind for you? [00:33:02] Will Page: Let me throw my fist, your words, your jaw, and try and knock you out for a second. We talked about price for a minute, and we talked about streaming. We haven't talked about gaming, but you noticed the Epic Games. It's just acquired band. I learned a fascinating stat about bandcam, which relates to my book Tarzan Economics. There's a chapter in the book called, "Make or Buy", where I sat down with the management of the band radio head. We went through the entire in Rainbow Story for the first time ever, a real global exclusive. Explain how that deal worked out, what they were really achieving when they did their voluntary tip jar model. And by the way, can I just put a shout out to one of your listeners and live from the Ben Zion. Best remix of Radiohead I've ever heard in my life is Amplive, Weird Fishez hip hop version of the entire album. But Radiohead tested voluntary tip jar pricing. Now check this out. If you put your album out on Band Cap, could be a vinyl record. Remember, it's the people who are paying to stream who are also buying vinyl. So if you put a ban, an album, my own banquette, and you say name your own price, no minimum, and there's a guidance there of 10 bucks, the average paid is. People go above 40% asking, and that could be for a super rich blockbuster artist who tries something out in band camp. That could be for some band who's broken Brooklyn, Robin and coins together, trying to make them breed. People go 40% above asking when you say name your own price. And that's interesting for me. there's a great academic paper by Francesco Cornell from Duke University. She asked, how should you price a museum? An intuition says Top-down. Museum should set the price. Adults 10 bucks, kids, five bucks, pensioners, some type of discount arrangement. But she said, no, let the visitors set the price because that way rich people will give you even more and poor people can attend and you'll see more cash overall. And I would like to see a little bit more of that experimentation around pricing compared to the past 20 years where we've had a ceiling on price, where if you really love a band, all you can give a platform is $9.99 and not a penny more. I think that's, we're suffocating love. We're putting a ceiling on love and we need to take that ceiling and smash through it and let people express love through different means. But I love that ban camp story. Whatever you suggest, I'll give you 40% above cuz it's art. We're not dealing with commodity, we're dealing with culture and that's why we gotta remind ourselves. [00:35:13] Dan Runcie: It's like the Met model, right? Where at least the last time I went, it was like $20 was the recommendation. But to your point, it at least had some vary of a threshold. But the people, a lot of the people that go there that have a lot of money end up giving much more. So I hear you on that. That's a great note to end on. Will, thanks again. Thank you so much. [00:35:33] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 06 Apr 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Rerun: The Future Of Music Business With Economist Will Page full Dan Runcie This week, I’m running back an interview I did with Will Page in 2022. It was our most popular episode of 2022 and we talked about a lot of topics that are still timely and still being debated right now in the industry.  One of the most unique insights into the state of the music business today doesn’t come from a record label exec. Not from an agent. Not from an artist. No, it comes from Scottish economist Will Page, who served that role for Spotify from 2012 to 2019 — a period of explosive growth for the streaming giant. But if you ask Page about streaming’s future, he’s not nearly as optimistic as the rest of the industry. “The party has to come to an end,” as he told me on this episode of Trapital. Page believes the music industry is transitioning from a “herbivore market” to a “carnivore” one. In other words, future growth will not come from brand-new customers — it’ll come from the streaming services eating into each other’s market share. Not only has subscriber counts possibly tapped out in Page’s opinion, but streaming services have also put a ceiling on revenues by charging only $9.99, a price that hasn’t budged in 20 years despite giant leaps in technology and music catalog size.   That against-the-grain prediction was one of many Will shared with me during our in-depth interview. But he has plenty more research- and experience-backed thoughts on touring, vinyl records, Web 3.0, and everything in between. Believe me, this is an interview you don’t want to miss. Here’s everything we covered:  [3:21] The Global Business of Music [4:15] Vinyl Records $1.5 Billion Recovery [08:54] Will’s Bearish View About The Future Of Streaming [14:46] Ongoing Price War Between Streaming Services [18:33] The Changing Economics Of Music Touring  [21:44] Performing At Festivals Vs. Tours  [24:57] The Evolution Of Music Publishing [28:34] How Music Revenue Gets Distributed To Publishers [32:41] What Does A “Post-Spotify Economy” Look Like?  [33:44] The Current Business Landscape Of Hip-Hop  Listen to Will’s mix right here: https://www.mixcloud.com/willpagesnc/we-aint-done-with-2021/ Check out Will’s Podcast, Bubble Trouble, where he breaks down how financial markets really work. Read Will’s book, Tarzan Economics: Eight Principles for Pivoting Through Disruption. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Will Page, @willpageauthor  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Will Page: When you have 110 million households, and you have more than 110 million subscribers in the United States, then we are in a race to the finishing line before herbivore turn into carnivores. In oil, we have this expression called peak oil, which is we know that we've extracted more oil in the world than is left to extract an oil that's left is gonna be even more costly to get out the ground. I think we're in peak subscriber territory where at some point soon we're gonna start seeing growth happen through stealing other customers as opposed to finding your own. [00:00:29] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:01:12] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: For today's episode, let's revisit the most popular episode that we did in 2022. That's the conversation that I had with Will Page. Will Page is the Former Chief Economist for Spotify, the author of Pivot, and Advisor consultant to many of the companies that are leading the music industry today. In this conversation, Will and I talked about a lot of topics that are still timely and still being debated right now in the industry. The price of streaming. Streaming, especially for Spotify, is still $9.99 in the. Pound and Euro in many markets. But Spotify wants to keep that price for several reasons. They want to continue to grow as much as they can. They also want something in return from the record labels. They want some type of concession if they're going to raise their prices. But as we've heard, the push has got louder and louder from the record label CEOs that want that price to increase. So we talk about some of the origins of that debate and where that may be. Then we also talk about some of the competition among the digital service providers as well, whether it's Apple Music, Spotify, Amazon Music, and others. We talk about how it's transitioning from a herbivore market to a carnivore market now that the market's getting saturated. You probably heard that term a bit over the past year that originated from this podcast. So we talk about that a number of other timely things and more we'll eventually have will back on the podcast soon. But this is a nice precursor to refresh the memory a bit and with some of the topics that are still going on in music today. Here's our episode. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:48] Dan Runcie: Some of the work you've done for a company that is very heavily focused on playlist, which is Spotify, and I think more broadly looking at the streaming era we're in right now. This is a great time to chat because we just saw the IFPI results and streaming as continuing to grow as we've seen. But I feel like you probably spotted a few interesting trends about where things are heading, and I think that's a question mark for a lot of people. Streaming continues to grow, but how far can it grow? What are we seeing in terms of differences within genres or regions? What are some of the things that stuck out [00:03:21] Will Page: to you? I'll give you a couple. The first one is the global business. Well, last time I looked at United Nations, I think there's 208 countries in the world. The global yearbook that we're discussing here has, I think 58. So we have to be careful what we define as global. I think Africa's clubbed together as one continent and where they need to work on that. But I think the global business is growing, but it's also becoming more American. So if you go back to when Spotify launched America, 22, 20 3% of the business round about just over a fifth. Today it's 37%. So we have seen the business grow and become more American, and that raises questions, you know, economic questions like globalization, questions, should poor countries catch up with rich ones? The theory says yes. The reality often says no. So we're seeing this kind of lopsided growth where the business is growing, but it's growing in favor of an American market. The biggest country is growing at the fastest. That's a positive problem, but I just wanna flag it, which is, that's not how it was supposed to play out. And then the second thing I'd wanna point to as well is just vinyl. this vinyl recovery is just, well, I don't know how much my bank balance is responsible for this vinyl recovery, but I'm telling you, Is define the laws of gravity. Now, we're now looking at vinyl being worth one and a half billion dollars, which is more than it's been worth in the past 30 years. It's worth more than CDs, cassettes, and downloads, the three formats that we're supposed to declare that vinyl is dead. But there's two things you can kind of cut out the vinyl recovery, which I think will be of real interest to your audience. Firstly, on the consumer side. I saw a survey which suggested that the majority, just over half of all vinyl buyers today, don't own a record player. I mean, something's cooking here. So what are we buying it for? I'll extend that as well. the cost of wall frames to frame vinyl on your wall often cost more than the record itself. So I'm willing to pay more for vinyl to you know, framed on my wall than I am for the record. And by the way, I don't have a record player. There's a lot of people who will tick those bizarre boxes. But on the crater side, something else is interesting. This'll take a little bit of working through. But if we think about the streaming model, it's monetizing consumption. That's what it does. So if there's an album with 10 songs, three killer and seven filler songs, and an album, and let's say Dan Runcie wrote the Three Killer Tracks and Will Page, he wrote the Seven Duff Filler Tracks. On streaming, Dan might walk away with all the money and I'll walk away from none because we're only streaming the killer tracks and nobody's touching the filler. As the album model kicks out from vinyl, I would get 70% of the cash. That's crazy because nobody knows what's being consumed and it's a lot of cash. If I just kind of do some rough math here of a million fans streaming your hip hop record on Spotify, and let's say they're stream. 200 times in a month when the album drops, you only need 20,000 of them of that million to make the same amount of money from vinyl than you would do from streams, which is entirely plausible. But then how do you pay the copyright owners from those songs on an album is very different from how you pay them on a stream. If you go back to the late seventies, the, one of the most successful records of all time was Saturday Night Fever, the Bee Ges and a bunch of other people. It's crazy to think that Ralph McDonald's Calypso strut his record there, which nobody has listened to, got the same royalty as staying alive by the Bee Gees because it was a vinyl record. So to reiterate, on the consumer, I don't know how many of these vinyl records are being played, and on the crater side, it raises questions about how these craters are gonna get paid. [00:06:53] Dan Runcie: That's a good point book that I don't think is being talked about as much about the vinyl search because there's so much like wow, about just how much is being purchased. I think I even saw the stat that Adele's 30 album sold 8,000 cassettes. Or there was stuff tied from Stat about that, and I think the similar thing that you said, lines up having those people actually still own a watman or whatever type of cassette player that they have. So I do think that that is something that probably there could be a deeper analysis on because. A lot of the people that write the filler songs, how do they feel? Or whether you're a songwriter, whether you, you know what's behind it, especially when you know that there's so much clear path to be able to determine, okay, this is going to be the lead single, this is what we're gonna push most from this album. It really shifts things even more to where things are going in terms of a single market. Like the way that people have talked about pop music for a while now, right? And I guess that brings a, brings me back to the streaming trends that you mentioned. Overall, we're in this area, as you mentioned, streaming itself, the US penetration is grown from 22%, I believe you said is now through your 35, 37, somewhere around there. But where do we go from here because as you've written before, the price of music streaming, at least the monthly subscription hasn't necessarily been increasing. The average revenue per user overall because of the international growth is decreased, and you have plenty of people that are still trying to get there, fair share of what they can. It's streaming so. It's in like five, 10 years from now. If you could see into the future, where do you think streaming distribution is? I think the good thing is that people have smartphones and there's more and more growth from that perspective. So streaming is going to grow, but on the other hand, the economics of these things do have some theoretical goal point where we've maximized the global penetration of this. What do you think about, where that is going? [00:08:54] Will Page: Let me unpack it in two different lanes. Firstly, I'll deal with the saturation point question, which is, you know, how long can this party keep going for? It's three o'clock in the morning, who's gonna call time on it? And then secondly, I wanna deal with the pricing point on its own lane as well, but on saturation point, you're now in a situation where I put it as in America, we've had herbivores. We've had Spotify growing Apple, growing Amazon, growing YouTube, growing. Everybody's reporting growth, Pandora even is growing. What we are gonna see some point soon is carnivores. Which is Apple will grow by eating into Spotify's growth, or YouTube will grow by eating into Amazon's growth. So the key question we gotta ask is when do we go from the herbivore market? We're in today to a carnival market of tomorrow, and I output Spotify's US subscriber number around about 45 million, Apple at 49 million. We dump on top YouTube. Amazon, Pandora, you're well past 110-120 million. Now, that's important because I reckon and there's around about 110 million qualifying households in America that has at least one person who could pay for a streaming service. This is crucial because if you look at what Apple One's bundle is doing $30 a month for news, music, television, gaming, fitness, and two turbos of storage per six account holder. It's a household proposition they're saying to the home, I got you convenience. Everyone under this roof is covered with Apple products. So when you have 110 million households, and you have more than 110 million subscribers in the United States, then we are in a race to the finishing line before herbivore turn into carnivores. In oil, we have this expression called peak oil, which is we know that we've extracted more oil in the world than is left to extract an oil that's left is gonna be even more costly to get out the ground. I think we're in peak subscriber territory where at some point soon we're gonna start seeing growth happen through stealing other customers as opposed to finding your own. So I just wanna put that warning flag out there. Just now we're partying like it's 1989, fine, but at some point the party has to come to an end and gross is gonna come at the expense of other players that then flips, you know, from the A side to the B side of this record. We flip it over to price and then the pricing debate is interesting. I published this work called MELD Economics,uh, which we can cite on your, your wonderful website there. Which was to look at 20 year history of the nine 19 price point, and its crazy story back in the 3rd of December, 2001, over 20 years ago. Today Rhapsody got its license for a $9.99 offering, which had 15,000 songs. First point. The origins of 9 99 bizarrely date back to the Blockbuster rental card. Some coed up label executive would've said, if it cost 9 99 to rent videos from Blockbuster, that's what it should cost to rent music. Secondly, there was only 15,000 songs with limited use case. There was no smartphone back then. No apps, no algorithms. That was all a weird welded into the future. So you just. 9 99 for 15,000 songs. We are now chatting in early April, 2022, and it's still 9 99 in dollar in Euro and Sterling, but we're offering a hundred million songs. That's the crazy thing. So in the article, Mel Economics, what I do is I strip inflation out in the case of the uk, 9 99 has fallen down to six pounds, 30 pence. Remember, you know, Family Plan makes music cheaper too. If 2.3 people are paying $40.99, that's six pounds 50. There's way too many numbers in this conversation for Trapital, but still we'll stick with it. Student plan makes it cheaper too. So music in real terms, has fallen to six pound 30, which is less than a medium glass of Malbec wine, so 175 milliliters of Malbec wine costs than a hundred million songs, which is available offline on demand without adverts. That for me, is certified bonkers. I don't understand what we've done. We're offering more and more, and we're charging less and less, and you only have to leave the ears to the eyes on the video streaming to see what they're doing on the other side of the fence. Netflix has got me from $7.99 to $8.99 to $12.99, to now $14.90. In the space of 15 months, and I haven't blinked Disney plus. The reason I'm paying $4.99 on Disney Plus is because I paid $19.99 to get Cruella live on demand. So they're charging more and more, but only offering part of the wells repertoire set for eyeball content. We are charging less and less and offering more and more of the wells. Ear hole content, so it's like two ships passing each other in the night. It's a very interesting dilemma. It's intriguing because when you look at the way that video is structured, as you mentioned, you have all these price increases, and I think Netflix for some plans is, you know, $18.99, it's approaching that level, but in music, It's this thing where, yeah, there's some price differences where I think I saw today that Amazon music is increasing a dollar, but that's from $7.99 for prime subscribers to that being $8.99. So we still have to cross that. I wonder if I won't cost that. [00:13:57] Dan Runcie: I mean, honestly, I feel like there's something here because when I think about this, I think about a few things. Obviously you do have this fight where the artists wanna get more and the labels wanna get more, you know, not just for the artists, but for themselves. And obviously Spotify wants to earn more logically. You would think, okay, if you increase the price and people just understated the economics of what's likely. If Spotify increased up to 1299 a month for the standard base rate, how many folks would boing. But to your point earlier, I have to imagine that the fear is looking at the trends and where that penetration is. If they jump up to $12.99, then they're going to lose those customers to the other streaming services that haven't jumped there yet because of that thought of, you know, shifting to that carnivore mentality of competing with each other. So because for roughly 80% of the content that they do offer, it is roughly the same between each of these services. It's led it to be more of a price war then in video streaming, where most of them do have some differentiated content. [00:15:02] Will Page: A hundred percent. And two things to bolt onto your very eloquent points there. And firstly, let's just remind ourselves that Apple launched superior sound quality. You may remember the, commercial of Lossless audio. You buy your AirPods, which cost two years of Apple Music or Spotify to put in your ears and you get superior sound quality, the subtext underneath it said at no extra cost. That was the actual marketing message. So there again, we are improving the offer we're supplying more but we're charging less in real terms. And that's a really interesting kind of point kind of cut into. And the second thing, and we should get balance into this discussion cause it's delicates, we have to remind ourselves that, you know, there's 120 million subscribers in America. There's still another 120 million to go, but we know they're not that interested in paying for music because they haven't paid yet. Now the best way to attract them is not necessarily to raise price. So we gotta remember that there's still, you know, oil to extract. It's not gonna be easy oil to extract, but the best way to get to it might not be to raise price, but there's a catch to this. I can remember in the early nineties, right up to 2010 piracy, ripping the asset out of this business and concept promoters were saying. We love piracy because the kids are getting music for free so they can pay more on concert tickets. I wonder if now they're saying we love Spotify because they don't raise prices, which means we can raise ours. This is not a discussion of how to rip off the customer. This is a discussion about value exchange and I just wonder whether recorded music is leaving value on the table. That's the key point to hammer on. [00:16:32] Dan Runcie: That's a good point. And I think that also made me think too, could there be some notion of maintaining the perception of Spotify as something that still has high pricing power and still has high consumer surplus, because then that helps the stock price. And then seeing that the major labels are all invested in Spotify itself. It's about like having that perception of, you know, the future growth and whatever it is. So what you just said made me think about that being a factor potentially too. [00:17:02] Will Page: A hundred percent. And of course, you've gotta distinguish the Spotify Apple music cost structure from that of the video streaming companies in that they have a kind of variable cost. You double your business, you double your cost base. Whereas Netflix, you jump up costs and you have, you jump up your revenue, you know, you raise me from 7 99 to 14 point 99, the cost of that content was fixed. And I'm still consuming the Fresh Prince of Bel Air on Netflix to this day. That was a fixed cost deal that he did to get that content and that's margin to Netflix. So, you know, the cost structure matters to this one as well. [00:17:33] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And you mentioned live music there, and I think there's a lot to think about from that perspective. I Feel like we're in this post pandemic. I mean, we're still not out of it, but we're in this post quarantine era, more artists than ever are trying to tour and get out there trying to capture what's there, but also from an economic perspective from that. Most people are only gonna go to a certain number of live events per year, and we have this 18 to 24 month run coming up where everyone wants to make up for what they couldn't do in the past two years. How will that shift, not just who then goes on tour together, and then how they may split those profits, what the availability looks like? And if they're not able to do what they may have done on tour in the late 2010s, how does that affect future touring? I think that's a piece of it that, you know, we still haven't necessarily seen the impact of, but it just feels inevitable based on where things are heading. You did it. [00:18:33] Will Page: Absolutely. Now on touring, I was lucky and I gotta do some great work on the UK live industry, and I can only speak for the UK here. I know a lot of your audience in the US but I think these points will carry. The first one was to work out how much is spent on concert tickets in Britain during the, the normal year of 2019, and the answer was 1.7 billion pounds. That's more than was spent on recorded music a lot more than was spent on recorded music, which makes sense, you know, you pay 120 pounds on the Spotify account, you're paying 240 pounds to go to Redding Festival. Two days in the muddy field in Redding, cost more than 365 days of all the wells. But what I noticed there was the industry is changing in its growth. I showed that between 2012, the year of the London Olympics and 2019, The live music industry in this country had exploded and grow, but it was lopsided. All the gro came from stadiums, festivals, and to lesser extent arenas. The theaters, the 2000, 3000 capacity theaters like the Philmore West over where you are, they were getting crushed. They were actually shrinking in size. So we have this lopsided live music industry, which is going right in the direction of the head as opposed to the long tail, the stadiums, the festivals, the arenas, as opposed to the theaters, the clubs, the university venues. And that's interesting cuz that's gonna change the dynamics of how you make money from live. Do you go from doing your tour of an album to doing a tour of your festivals for that record? And what does that mean? The cost structure for the insurance and all those things that bands have to consider when they're hitting the road. I mean, credit to capital. You've had some great podcasts recently on this topic, but as, a big rethink coming along in this live music market, it's not the same as we had back in 2019. It's changed fundamentally, and it is the breadwinner for most artists' income. I think it makes up about 70% of what an artist has to live for comes from the road that vanished. How do we get it back? [00:20:22] Dan Runcie: I feel like Cardi B has been a good. Case study on this specific point here, right? It's been four years now since she released an album, and she's yet to go on a true proper tour in that time. That said, she's done plenty of festivals where she's earned more on those festival guarantees that she likely would on tour. She's also done many private events where she's likely earned that save amount, if not more. So there's a whole economic argument to be made, and I think there's also some risk involved too, right? I think that festivals do give you the opportunity to. Get that major bag, you get the high number, the revenue that comes through, but maybe your fans will be a little bit more forgiving if your set piece at your festival isn't the most extravagant thing, especially if you're not the headliner at it. But on a tour, I think it changes. It's a little bit more pressure, everyone wants to see that Instagramable or talkable moment to then sell future tickets and just the production cost and everything with travel. It still is something that is very worthwhile, but I think we've just started to see some of that segmentation there. Especially for someone like her. I would add residencies too. I know she's done a few different things in Vegas here and there, but yeah. Still yet to do that 30 city worldwide tour. [00:21:44] Will Page: Yeah, I think you gotta think with your head and your heart. Your head says like you point out the economics favors festival. Your back line's there, your insurance is covered. Travel's already covered. I have numerous hip hop bands perform at festivals in Europe, and that's one of the big advantages. The costs are all taken care of by the festival, but your heart says, what does that do to intimate relationships with your fans? [00:22:05] Dan Runcie: Right? [00:22:05] Will Page: I mean, you're staring at 50,000 strangers in the muddy field. That's different from staring at 2000 friends in the Fillmore West. So the head and the heart's gotta come into play here. What I would add though is that there are rumors, I would say here in the UK at least, that the promoters are saying, I'll pay you a ton of money to perform at the festival to make sure that you don't go on tour. And that's an interesting situation. If you build one too many houses, you collapse a property market. If you have one too many tours or one too many festivals, you collapse live music industry. So there's ways in which people are trying to restrain the market to festival. At the expense of the theaters. That certainly is coming through in the data. We're seeing the theater business take a kick in while festivals go on a roll. [00:22:45] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because I think about, you look at the artists that are touring stadiums now, whether it's your Taylor Swift's or Beyonce's, they wouldn't be able to do that if they didn't have the individual tours at smaller venues when they were starting out. Being able to build that intimate fan base, like you said, like you get to that point, right? And I do think that as good as festivals can be, it is much more of a lucrative cash grab that is, I don't wanna say necessarily short-term thinking, but I think you ideally wanna have some type of balance there, right? Get the big bag that you can get from something else. It's almost no different. I think running a business, right? Okay, sure. You may be able to do a speaking fee or do some type of, you know, thing here or there, but hey, you can't do that all the time, especially if it's not an audience you're tapped into. You still need to do some of the things that could set you up for the long game. [00:23:37] Will Page: Yeah, and there's an infographic that I'll share with you to pass onto your audience here. I wrote an article in The Economist called Smells like Middle-Aged Spirit as opposed to Teen. Nice play on Words hat to Dave Gro and Kurt Cobain. But what I was looking at was the average age of festival headliners over time. This is a du pessimistic Scottish economist. This is what you do with your spare time. Okay, so in the nineties when radio head to Glastonbury, the average age of a festival headliner is 25, 26 years old. all these hot bands were coming through the Brit Pop era. You know, there was so much development of new talent. By 2012, I think it had got up to 58 and I got a lot of criticism for that article. But then Glastonbury that year had the WHO and Lionel Richie headlining, which I think was 17 and 73 years old apart. And then you can see the conveyor belt problem, which is okay, it's a quick cash grab. It makes sense. But that's not the conveyor belt of how we developed talent for tomorrow. That's just how we cash in our chips at the casino today. So it does raise questions, I'm not saying it's like the doomsday scenario here, but we just need a healthy balance of, you know, a seeded for future growth and then the big stage for exploiting that moment today, which could be the pyramid stage at Glastonbury, the headlights stage at Monterey over in the States. So I just think we're getting a little bit lopsided here. We're a bit short termist and how this business needs to develop. [00:24:57] Dan Runcie: Agreed on that. Switching gears a bit. One thing that you wrote recently that stuck out to me, you did this deep dive on music publishing, and I think this is another area that kind of has some of that short-term, long-term perspective on it, because you look at the people who get the share of the copyright pie, at least today, and from music streaming perspective, a lot of that has been much more in the favor of, the recorded side and then the people getting compensated on the recording side. But with that, the songwriters and the publishers, a lot of them necessarily in that timeframe, didn't get a lot of that. But I think in this wave now where we're seeing more catalog deals and we're seeing people understand the value of that, things may be starting to shift and there's likely other things as well. But what do you think about the way that the publishing side has been seen in what the future opportunities are for that side of the business? [00:25:54] Will Page: Well, the way that labels and publishing were taught to me in terms of what makes them distinct from one another goes back to my Aunt Dorian Loader, who worked in the music business from 1959 at Deca Records, right the way through to 2012. She ran Enzyme records with Nigel Grange, Lucian's Half-Brother. They were responsible for Shead O'Connor, who sold 11 million albums based on the Prince cover. And she once said to me, will, this is how the music industry works. The record label pays for your drugs and the publishing pays for your pension. I just kind of, that's a nice succinct way of summarizing how the business works. That was then, this is now clearly times have changed, I think, but it reminds us about, you know, what makes the business different. And then that piece of work that you cite is something called global value of copyright, where I'm really keen to educate this. Regardless of whether you're coming from a label perspective, a manager, an artist, a songwriter, there's a C with a circle on it called copyright. We get that, and it involves record labels. It involves sound exchange. It involves artists. It involves ascap, BMI, GMR, Czek. It involves publishers, David Israeli, and the great folks at the NNPA. It Put the whole thing together for me, all this spaghetti and strain it out. And what I was able to show was that in 2020, copyright was worth 32.5 billion, way bigger than what you've just heard from IFPI way bigger than what Czek would say. This is the entire thing. And the split was about 65% labels, 35% to the publishers. Now, if you go way back to 2001, when we used to sell CDs by weight of pate. In the cocaine capitalism days, you know, record labels back then. The split was much more in favor of labels, you know, more than three quarter labels, less than a quarter to the publishers. And what we've seen happen in the years in between is quite an interesting story. Labels went from boom time with CDs to bust with piracy, and now they're booming again with streaming. And the inverse, the opposite happened. Publishers as labels went bust. ASCAP, BMI kept on reporting record breaking collections, so you have a hair tore toys analogy here of labels going really fast and falling off a cliff. Publishers just trundled along with record breaking, not massive record breaking collections, but it kept on growing their bases. So, the questions these throw up is what type of industry are we moving towards? Are we going back to a business model which paid labels over three quarters of the pie and publishes less than a quarter, and is that a good or a bad thing? Or in this post Spotify economy where we're seeing companies like Peloton, Twitch, TikTok, come to the business, is that gonna have a completely different balance? Now why this matters to your audience is not just on the crater side, but also on the investment side. You pointed out catalog valuations. We can dig into that if you want, but just a high level point is, let's say that in a few years time, I go into my back cave again, calculate the global value of copyright, and instead of 32 and a half billion, it's 40 billion. I'll come on Trapital show, I'll make an exclusive announcement. Copyright today is worth 40 billion, seven and a half billion new dollars. Have come into this business, I want the audience to start thinking about who gets what share of that marginal new dollar. Is that gonna split publishing side or is that gonna split label side? And if you're investing in catalogs, be the master rights, be the author rights that really bears, there's a huge educational drive here to understand the balance of this business of copyright. [00:29:15] Dan Runcie: So there's a few things you've said there that I wanted to dig into. Of course, for streaming Spotify and its competitors around 75%. Is going to the recorded side a quarter to publishing. But from a breakdown, what does that look like for the TikToks, the Roblox and the Pelotons? What does that share of revenue from those plays look like? [00:29:38] Will Page: So, The best way I could do this is if I just talk about ratios. There's three Rs in this business. There's share of revenue, there's ratio in this rights pool. They mean different things. Most experts get confused. With these three Rs, I'm gonna stick to ratios. That is, if I give the label a dollar, how much do I give the publisher, the songwriter, this collective management organization. So we stick to the conventional streaming model Today, I would say that if you give the record label a dollar, you're giving the publishing side of the. 24 cents, you know, a decent chunk of change. But still the pure cousin of the record label on YouTube, I think it could be as high as 35 cents, 40 cents even. Because there's a sync right? Involved in those deals. And then when you take that observation of imposing the sync right into deal, and you expand it to Peloton or TikTok, potentially even more, and then you can flip it and say, well, what happens if the future of TikTok is karaoke? Not saying it's gonna happen, but it's not implausible if that was the case. That favors publishers even more. So there's all these weird ways that the business could develop, which could favor one side of the fence. The labels and the artists continue getting three quarters of the cash or the other side of the fence. Publishers and songwriters start enforcing their rights and getting. A more balanced share and that that's what we need to look out for when we're investing incorporates. That's what we need to look out for. If you're a singer and a songwriter and you're trying to understand your royalty statements [00:30:57] Dan Runcie: mm-hmm. Well, like how much higher do you think? I mean, if you had to put a percentage on it for the TOS or the Pelotons, and I guess as well, you made me think of sync deals, right? Like for the folks that are selling, or their song gets placed on one of these hulu series or one of these HBO Max series, like what does that ratio look like, you know, from a ballpark for those. [00:31:20] Will Page: So I think a 50 50 split would be the upper bend of the goal. If, if a song is placed in a Hulu TV show or you know, an artist I've worked with for many years, Yu Dito Brazilian composer, his songs now in this famous easy Jet commercial over here in Europe. The artists and the publisher would see around a 50 50 split of those revenues. Now, would that happen in the world of streaming? Unlikely. But I think if you can get to a stage where you're giving the record label a dollar and the publisher 50 cents as a ratio, and I've gotta repeat the word ratio here, you know, that's potentially achievable with this post Spotify economy. I don't think it's gonna happen with the business we're looking at today, but I think that's a potential scenario for the business developing tomorrow. That's the thing. If I can quote Ralph Simon, a, a longtime mentor to me, he always says, this industry is always about what's happening next. And then he goes on to say, it always has been. It's a great reminder of just, you know, we're restless souls in this business. We've achieved this amazing thing in the past 10 years with streaming. Got there. Banked there what's coming next, who would've thought Peloton would've had a music licensing department 18 months ago? Now they're like a top 10 account for major labels. [00:32:30] Dan Runcie: It's impressive. It really is. And I think it's a good reminder because anytime that you get a little bit too bullish and excited about what the current thing is, it's, we always gotta be thinking about what's next. And you mentioned a few times about a post Spotify economy. What does that look like from your perspective? I think there's likely a number of things that we've already talked about with more of these other B2B platforms or where these other platforms in general, having licensing deals. But when you say, or what do you think about post Spotify economy? What comes to mind for you? [00:33:02] Will Page: Let me throw my fist, your words, your jaw, and try and knock you out for a second. We talked about price for a minute, and we talked about streaming. We haven't talked about gaming, but you noticed the Epic Games. It's just acquired band. I learned a fascinating stat about bandcam, which relates to my book Tarzan Economics. There's a chapter in the book called, "Make or Buy", where I sat down with the management of the band radio head. We went through the entire in Rainbow Story for the first time ever, a real global exclusive. Explain how that deal worked out, what they were really achieving when they did their voluntary tip jar model. And by the way, can I just put a shout out to one of your listeners and live from the Ben Zion. Best remix of Radiohead I've ever heard in my life is Amplive, Weird Fishez hip hop version of the entire album. But Radiohead tested voluntary tip jar pricing. Now check this out. If you put your album out on Band Cap, could be a vinyl record. Remember, it's the people who are paying to stream who are also buying vinyl. So if you put a ban, an album, my own banquette, and you say name your own price, no minimum, and there's a guidance there of 10 bucks, the average paid is. People go above 40% asking, and that could be for a super rich blockbuster artist who tries something out in band camp. That could be for some band who's broken Brooklyn, Robin and coins together, trying to make them breed. People go 40% above asking when you say name your own price. And that's interesting for me. there's a great academic paper by Francesco Cornell from Duke University. She asked, how should you price a museum? An intuition says Top-down. Museum should set the price. Adults 10 bucks, kids, five bucks, pensioners, some type of discount arrangement. But she said, no, let the visitors set the price because that way rich people will give you even more and poor people can attend and you'll see more cash overall. And I would like to see a little bit more of that experimentation around pricing compared to the past 20 years where we've had a ceiling on price, where if you really love a band, all you can give a platform is $9.99 and not a penny more. I think that's, we're suffocating love. We're putting a ceiling on love and we need to take that ceiling and smash through it and let people express love through different means. But I love that ban camp story. Whatever you suggest, I'll give you 40% above cuz it's art. We're not dealing with commodity, we're dealing with culture and that's why we gotta remind ourselves. [00:35:13] Dan Runcie: It's like the Met model, right? Where at least the last time I went, it was like $20 was the recommendation. But to your point, it at least had some vary of a threshold. But the people, a lot of the people that go there that have a lot of money end up giving much more. So I hear you on that. That's a great note to end on. Will, thanks again. Thank you so much. [00:35:33] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. This week, I’m running back an interview I did with Will Page in 2022. It was our most popular episode of 2022 and we talked about a lot of topics that are still timely and still being debated right now in the industry. 


One of the most unique insights into the state of the music business today doesn’t come from a record label exec. Not from an agent. Not from an artist. No, it comes from Scottish economist Will Page, who served that role for Spotify from 2012 to 2019 — a period of explosive growth for the streaming giant. But if you ask Page about streaming’s future, he’s not nearly as optimistic as the rest of the industry. “The party has to come to an end,” as he told me on this episode of Trapital.


Page believes the music industry is transitioning from a “herbivore market” to a “carnivore” one. In other words, future growth will not come from brand-new customers — it’ll come from the streaming services eating into each other’s market share. Not only has subscriber counts possibly tapped out in Page’s opinion, but streaming services have also put a ceiling on revenues by charging only $9.99, a price that hasn’t budged in 20 years despite giant leaps in technology and music catalog size.  


That against-the-grain prediction was one of many Will shared with me during our in-depth interview. But he has plenty more research- and experience-backed thoughts on touring, vinyl records, Web 3.0, and everything in between. Believe me, this is an interview you don’t want to miss. Here’s everything we covered: 


[3:21] The Global Business of Music

[4:15] Vinyl Records $1.5 Billion Recovery

[08:54] Will’s Bearish View About The Future Of Streaming

[14:46] Ongoing Price War Between Streaming Services

[18:33] The Changing Economics Of Music Touring 

[21:44] Performing At Festivals Vs. Tours 

[24:57] The Evolution Of Music Publishing

[28:34] How Music Revenue Gets Distributed To Publishers

[32:41] What Does A “Post-Spotify Economy” Look Like? 

[33:44] The Current Business Landscape Of Hip-Hop 


Listen to Will’s mix right here: https://www.mixcloud.com/willpagesnc/we-aint-done-with-2021/


Check out Will’s Podcast, Bubble Trouble, where he breaks down how financial markets really work.


Read Will’s book, Tarzan Economics: Eight Principles for Pivoting Through Disruption.


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Will Page, @willpageauthor 


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 


TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Will Page: When you have 110 million households, and you have more than 110 million subscribers in the United States, then we are in a race to the finishing line before herbivore turn into carnivores.

In oil, we have this expression called peak oil, which is we know that we've extracted more oil in the world than is left to extract an oil that's left is gonna be even more costly to get out the ground. I think we're in peak subscriber territory where at some point soon we're gonna start seeing growth happen through stealing other customers as opposed to finding your own.

[00:00:29] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:01:12] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: For today's episode, let's revisit the most popular episode that we did in 2022. That's the conversation that I had with Will Page. Will Page is the Former Chief Economist for Spotify, the author of Pivot, and Advisor consultant to many of the companies that are leading the music industry today. In this conversation, Will and I talked about a lot of topics that are still timely and still being debated right now in the industry.

The price of streaming. Streaming, especially for Spotify, is still $9.99 in the. Pound and Euro in many markets. But Spotify wants to keep that price for several reasons. They want to continue to grow as much as they can. They also want something in return from the record labels. They want some type of concession if they're going to raise their prices.

But as we've heard, the push has got louder and louder from the record label CEOs that want that price to increase. So we talk about some of the origins of that debate and where that may be. Then we also talk about some of the competition among the digital service providers as well, whether it's Apple Music, Spotify, Amazon Music, and others.

We talk about how it's transitioning from a herbivore market to a carnivore market now that the market's getting saturated. You probably heard that term a bit over the past year that originated from this podcast. So we talk about that a number of other timely things and more we'll eventually have will back on the podcast soon.

But this is a nice precursor to refresh the memory a bit and with some of the topics that are still going on in music today. Here's our episode. Hope you enjoy it.

[00:02:48] Dan Runcie: Some of the work you've done for a company that is very heavily focused on playlist, which is Spotify, and I think more broadly looking at the streaming era we're in right now.

This is a great time to chat because we just saw the IFPI results and streaming as continuing to grow as we've seen. But I feel like you probably spotted a few interesting trends about where things are heading, and I think that's a question mark for a lot of people. Streaming continues to grow, but how far can it grow?

What are we seeing in terms of differences within genres or regions? What are some of the things that stuck out

[00:03:21] Will Page: to you? I'll give you a couple. The first one is the global business. Well, last time I looked at United Nations, I think there's 208 countries in the world. The global yearbook that we're discussing here has, I think 58.

So we have to be careful what we define as global. I think Africa's clubbed together as one continent and where they need to work on that. But I think the global business is growing, but it's also becoming more American. So if you go back to when Spotify launched America, 22, 20 3% of the business round about just over a fifth.

Today it's 37%. So we have seen the business grow and become more American, and that raises questions, you know, economic questions like globalization, questions, should poor countries catch up with rich ones? The theory says yes. The reality often says no. So we're seeing this kind of lopsided growth where the business is growing, but it's growing in favor of an American market.

The biggest country is growing at the fastest. That's a positive problem, but I just wanna flag it, which is, that's not how it was supposed to play out. And then the second thing I'd wanna point to as well is just vinyl. this vinyl recovery is just, well, I don't know how much my bank balance is responsible for this vinyl recovery, but I'm telling you, Is define the laws of gravity.

Now, we're now looking at vinyl being worth one and a half billion dollars, which is more than it's been worth in the past 30 years. It's worth more than CDs, cassettes, and downloads, the three formats that we're supposed to declare that vinyl is dead. But there's two things you can kind of cut out the vinyl recovery, which I think will be of real interest to your audience.

Firstly, on the consumer side. I saw a survey which suggested that the majority, just over half of all vinyl buyers today, don't own a record player. I mean, something's cooking here. So what are we buying it for? I'll extend that as well. the cost of wall frames to frame vinyl on your wall often cost more than the record itself.

So I'm willing to pay more for vinyl to you know, framed on my wall than I am for the record. And by the way, I don't have a record player. There's a lot of people who will tick those bizarre boxes. But on the crater side, something else is interesting. This'll take a little bit of working through.

But if we think about the streaming model, it's monetizing consumption. That's what it does. So if there's an album with 10 songs, three killer and seven filler songs, and an album, and let's say Dan Runcie wrote the Three Killer Tracks and Will Page, he wrote the Seven Duff Filler Tracks. On streaming, Dan might walk away with all the money and I'll walk away from none because we're only streaming the killer tracks and nobody's touching the filler.

As the album model kicks out from vinyl, I would get 70% of the cash. That's crazy because nobody knows what's being consumed and it's a lot of cash. If I just kind of do some rough math here of a million fans streaming your hip hop record on Spotify, and let's say they're stream. 200 times in a month when the album drops, you only need 20,000 of them of that million to make the same amount of money from vinyl than you would do from streams, which is entirely plausible.

But then how do you pay the copyright owners from those songs on an album is very different from how you pay them on a stream. If you go back to the late seventies, the, one of the most successful records of all time was Saturday Night Fever, the Bee Ges and a bunch of other people. It's crazy to think that Ralph McDonald's Calypso strut his record there, which nobody has listened to, got the same royalty as staying alive by the Bee Gees because it was a vinyl record.

So to reiterate, on the consumer, I don't know how many of these vinyl records are being played, and on the crater side, it raises questions about how these craters are gonna get

paid.

[00:06:53] Dan Runcie: That's a good point book that I don't think is being talked about as much about the vinyl search because there's so much like wow, about just how much is being purchased.

I think I even saw the stat that Adele's 30 album sold 8,000 cassettes. Or there was stuff tied from Stat about that, and I think the similar thing that you said, lines up having those people actually still own a watman or whatever type of cassette player that they have. So I do think that that is something that probably there could be a deeper analysis on because.

A lot of the people that write the filler songs, how do they feel? Or whether you're a songwriter, whether you, you know what's behind it, especially when you know that there's so much clear path to be able to determine, okay, this is going to be the lead single, this is what we're gonna push most from this album.

It really shifts things even more to where things are going in terms of a single market. Like the way that people have talked about pop music for a while now, right? And I guess that brings a, brings me back to the streaming trends that you mentioned. Overall, we're in this area, as you mentioned, streaming itself, the US penetration is grown from 22%, I believe you said is now through your 35, 37, somewhere around there.

But where do we go from here because as you've written before, the price of music streaming, at least the monthly subscription hasn't necessarily been increasing. The average revenue per user overall because of the international growth is decreased, and you have plenty of people that are still trying to get there, fair share of what they can.

It's streaming so. It's in like five, 10 years from now. If you could see into the future, where do you think streaming distribution is? I think the good thing is that people have smartphones and there's more and more growth from that perspective. So streaming is going to grow, but on the other hand, the economics of these things do have some theoretical goal point where we've maximized the global penetration of this.

What do you think about, where that is going?

[00:08:54] Will Page: Let me unpack it in two different lanes. Firstly, I'll deal with the saturation point question, which is, you know, how long can this party keep going for? It's three o'clock in the morning, who's gonna call time on it? And then secondly, I wanna deal with the pricing point on its own lane as well, but on saturation point, you're now in a situation where I put it as in America, we've had herbivores. We've had Spotify growing Apple, growing Amazon, growing YouTube, growing. Everybody's reporting growth, Pandora even is growing. What we are gonna see some point soon is carnivores.

Which is Apple will grow by eating into Spotify's growth, or YouTube will grow by eating into Amazon's growth. So the key question we gotta ask is when do we go from the herbivore market? We're in today to a carnival market of tomorrow, and I output Spotify's US subscriber number around about 45 million, Apple at 49 million. We dump on top YouTube. Amazon, Pandora, you're well past 110-120 million. Now, that's important because I reckon and there's around about 110 million qualifying households in America that has at least one person who could pay for a streaming service. This is crucial because if you look at what Apple One's bundle is doing $30 a month for news, music, television, gaming, fitness, and two turbos of storage per six account holder. It's a household proposition they're saying to the home, I got you convenience. Everyone under this roof is covered with Apple products. So when you have 110 million households, and you have more than 110 million subscribers in the United States, then we are in a race to the finishing line before herbivore turn into carnivores.

In oil, we have this expression called peak oil, which is we know that we've extracted more oil in the world than is left to extract an oil that's left is gonna be even more costly to get out the ground. I think we're in peak subscriber territory where at some point soon we're gonna start seeing growth happen through stealing other customers as opposed to finding your own.

So I just wanna put that warning flag out there. Just now we're partying like it's 1989, fine, but at some point the party has to come to an end and gross is gonna come at the expense of other players that then flips, you know, from the A side to the B side of this record. We flip it over to price and then the pricing debate is interesting.

I published this work called MELD Economics,uh, which we can cite on your, your wonderful website there. Which was to look at 20 year history of the nine 19 price point, and its crazy story back in the 3rd of December, 2001, over 20 years ago. Today Rhapsody got its license for a $9.99 offering, which had 15,000 songs.

First point. The origins of 9 99 bizarrely date back to the Blockbuster rental card. Some coed up label executive would've said, if it cost 9 99 to rent videos from Blockbuster, that's what it should cost to rent music. Secondly, there was only 15,000 songs with limited use case. There was no smartphone back then.

No apps, no algorithms. That was all a weird welded into the future. So you just. 9 99 for 15,000 songs. We are now chatting in early April, 2022, and it's still 9 99 in dollar in Euro and Sterling, but we're offering a hundred million songs. That's the crazy thing. So in the article, Mel Economics, what I do is I strip inflation out in the case of the uk, 9 99 has fallen down to six pounds, 30 pence.

Remember, you know, Family Plan makes music cheaper too. If 2.3 people are paying $40.99, that's six pounds 50. There's way too many numbers in this conversation for Trapital, but still we'll stick with it. Student plan makes it cheaper too. So music in real terms, has fallen to six pound 30, which is less than a medium glass of Malbec wine, so 175 milliliters of Malbec wine costs than a hundred million songs, which is available offline on demand without adverts. That for me, is certified bonkers. I don't understand what we've done. We're offering more and more, and we're charging less and less, and you only have to leave the ears to the eyes on the video streaming to see what they're doing on the other side of the fence.

Netflix has got me from $7.99 to $8.99 to $12.99, to now $14.90. In the space of 15 months, and I haven't blinked Disney plus. The reason I'm paying $4.99 on Disney Plus is because I paid $19.99 to get Cruella live on demand. So they're charging more and more, but only offering part of the wells repertoire set for eyeball content.

We are charging less and less and offering more and more of the wells. Ear hole content, so it's like two ships passing each other in the night. It's a very interesting dilemma.

It's intriguing because when you look at the way that video is structured, as you mentioned, you have all these price increases, and I think Netflix for some plans is, you know, $18.99, it's approaching that level, but in music, It's this thing where, yeah, there's some price differences where I think I saw today that Amazon music is increasing a dollar, but that's from $7.99 for prime subscribers to that being $8.99. So we still have to cross that.

I wonder if I won't cost that.

[00:13:57] Dan Runcie: I mean, honestly, I feel like there's something here because when I think about this, I think about a few things.

Obviously you do have this fight where the artists wanna get more and the labels wanna get more, you know, not just for the artists, but for themselves. And obviously Spotify wants to earn more logically. You would think, okay, if you increase the price and people just understated the economics of what's likely.

If Spotify increased up to 1299 a month for the standard base rate, how many folks would boing. But to your point earlier, I have to imagine that the fear is looking at the trends and where that penetration is. If they jump up to $12.99, then they're going to lose those customers to the other streaming services that haven't jumped there yet because of that thought of, you know, shifting to that carnivore mentality of competing with each other. So because for roughly 80% of the content that they do offer, it is roughly the same between each of these services. It's led it to be more of a price war then in video streaming, where most of them do have some differentiated content.

[00:15:02] Will Page: A hundred percent. And two things to bolt onto your very eloquent points there. And firstly, let's just remind ourselves that Apple launched superior sound quality. You may remember the, commercial of Lossless audio. You buy your AirPods, which cost two years of Apple Music or Spotify to put in your ears and you get superior sound quality, the subtext underneath it said at no extra cost. That was the actual marketing message. So there again, we are improving the offer we're supplying more but we're charging less in real terms. And that's a really interesting kind of point kind of cut into. And the second thing, and we should get balance into this discussion cause it's delicates, we have to remind ourselves that, you know, there's 120 million subscribers in America.

There's still another 120 million to go, but we know they're not that interested in paying for music because they haven't paid yet. Now the best way to attract them is not necessarily to raise price. So we gotta remember that there's still, you know, oil to extract. It's not gonna be easy oil to extract, but the best way to get to it might not be to raise price, but there's a catch to this.

I can remember in the early nineties, right up to 2010 piracy, ripping the asset out of this business and concept promoters were saying. We love piracy because the kids are getting music for free so they can pay more on concert tickets. I wonder if now they're saying we love Spotify because they don't raise prices, which means we can raise ours.

This is not a discussion of how to rip off the customer. This is a discussion about value exchange and I just wonder whether recorded music is leaving value on the table. That's the key point

to hammer on.

[00:16:32] Dan Runcie: That's a good point. And I think that also made me think too, could there be some notion of maintaining the perception of Spotify as something that still has high pricing power and still has high consumer surplus, because then that helps the stock price.

And then seeing that the major labels are all invested in Spotify itself. It's about like having that perception of, you know, the future growth and whatever it is. So what you just said made me think about that being a factor potentially too.

[00:17:02] Will Page: A hundred percent. And of course, you've gotta distinguish the Spotify Apple music cost structure from that of the video streaming companies in that they have a kind of variable cost.

You double your business, you double your cost base. Whereas Netflix, you jump up costs and you have, you jump up your revenue, you know, you raise me from 7 99 to 14 point 99, the cost of that content was fixed. And I'm still consuming the Fresh Prince of Bel Air on Netflix to this day. That was a fixed cost deal that he did to get that content and that's margin to Netflix.

So, you know, the cost structure matters to this one as well.

[00:17:33] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And you mentioned live music there, and I think there's a lot to think about from that perspective. I Feel like we're in this post pandemic. I mean, we're still not out of it, but we're in this post quarantine era, more artists than ever are trying to tour and get out there trying to capture what's there, but also from an economic perspective from that.

Most people are only gonna go to a certain number of live events per year, and we have this 18 to 24 month run coming up where everyone wants to make up for what they couldn't do in the past two years. How will that shift, not just who then goes on tour together, and then how they may split those profits, what the availability looks like?

And if they're not able to do what they may have done on tour in the late 2010s, how does that affect future touring? I think that's a piece of it that, you know, we still haven't necessarily seen the impact of, but it just feels inevitable based on where things are heading. You did it.

[00:18:33] Will Page: Absolutely. Now on touring, I was lucky and I gotta do some great work on the UK live industry, and I can only speak for the UK here.

I know a lot of your audience in the US but I think these points will carry. The first one was to work out how much is spent on concert tickets in Britain during the, the normal year of 2019, and the answer was 1.7 billion pounds. That's more than was spent on recorded music a lot more than was spent on recorded music, which makes sense, you know, you pay 120 pounds on the Spotify account, you're paying 240 pounds to go to Redding Festival. Two days in the muddy field in Redding, cost more than 365 days of all the wells. But what I noticed there was the industry is changing in its growth. I showed that between 2012, the year of the London Olympics and 2019, The live music industry in this country had exploded and grow, but it was lopsided.

All the gro came from stadiums, festivals, and to lesser extent arenas. The theaters, the 2000, 3000 capacity theaters like the Philmore West over where you are, they were getting crushed. They were actually shrinking in size. So we have this lopsided live music industry, which is going right in the direction of the head as opposed to the long tail, the stadiums, the festivals, the arenas, as opposed to the theaters, the clubs, the university venues.

And that's interesting cuz that's gonna change the dynamics of how you make money from live. Do you go from doing your tour of an album to doing a tour of your festivals for that record? And what does that mean? The cost structure for the insurance and all those things that bands have to consider when they're hitting the road.

I mean, credit to capital. You've had some great podcasts recently on this topic, but as, a big rethink coming along in this live music market, it's not the same as we had back in 2019. It's changed fundamentally, and it is the breadwinner for most artists' income. I think it makes up about 70% of what an artist has to live for comes from the road that vanished.

How do we get it back?

[00:20:22] Dan Runcie: I feel like Cardi B has been a good. Case study on this specific point here, right? It's been four years now since she released an album, and she's yet to go on a true proper tour in that time. That said, she's done plenty of festivals where she's earned more on those festival guarantees that she likely would on tour.

She's also done many private events where she's likely earned that save amount, if not more. So there's a whole economic argument to be made, and I think there's also some risk involved too, right? I think that festivals do give you the opportunity to. Get that major bag, you get the high number, the revenue that comes through, but maybe your fans will be a little bit more forgiving if your set piece at your festival isn't the most extravagant thing, especially if you're not the headliner at it.

But on a tour, I think it changes. It's a little bit more pressure, everyone wants to see that Instagramable or talkable moment to then sell future tickets and just the production cost and everything with travel. It still is something that is very worthwhile, but I think we've just started to see some of that segmentation there.

Especially for someone like her. I would add residencies too. I know she's done a few different things in Vegas here and there, but yeah. Still yet to do that 30 city worldwide tour.

[00:21:44] Will Page: Yeah, I think you gotta think with your head and your heart. Your head says like you point out the economics favors festival.

Your back line's there, your insurance is covered. Travel's already covered. I have numerous hip hop bands perform at festivals in Europe, and that's one of the big advantages. The costs are all taken care of by the festival, but your heart says, what does that do to intimate relationships with your fans?

[00:22:05] Dan Runcie: Right?

[00:22:05] Will Page: I mean, you're staring at 50,000 strangers in the muddy field. That's different from staring at 2000 friends in the Fillmore West. So the head and the heart's gotta come into play here. What I would add though is that there are rumors, I would say here in the UK at least, that the promoters are saying, I'll pay you a ton of money to perform at the festival to make sure that you don't go on tour.

And that's an interesting situation. If you build one too many houses, you collapse a property market. If you have one too many tours or one too many festivals, you collapse live music industry. So there's ways in which people are trying to restrain the market to festival. At the expense of the theaters.

That certainly is coming through in the data. We're seeing the theater business take a kick in while festivals go on a roll.

[00:22:45] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because I think about, you look at the artists that are touring stadiums now, whether it's your Taylor Swift's or Beyonce's, they wouldn't be able to do that if they didn't have the individual tours at smaller venues when they were starting out. Being able to build that intimate fan base, like you said, like you get to that point, right? And I do think that as good as festivals can be, it is much more of a lucrative cash grab that is, I don't wanna say necessarily short-term thinking, but I think you ideally wanna have some type of balance there, right?

Get the big bag that you can get from something else. It's almost no different. I think running a business, right? Okay, sure. You may be able to do a speaking fee or do some type of, you know, thing here or there, but hey, you can't do that all the time, especially if it's not an audience you're tapped into.

You still need to do some of the things that could set you up for the long game.

[00:23:37] Will Page: Yeah, and there's an infographic that I'll share with you to pass onto your audience here. I wrote an article in The Economist called Smells like Middle-Aged Spirit as opposed to Teen. Nice play on Words hat to Dave Gro and Kurt Cobain.

But what I was looking at was the average age of festival headliners over time. This is a du pessimistic Scottish economist. This is what you do with your spare time. Okay, so in the nineties when radio head to Glastonbury, the average age of a festival headliner is 25, 26 years old. all these hot bands were coming through the Brit Pop era.

You know, there was so much development of new talent. By 2012, I think it had got up to 58 and I got a lot of criticism for that article. But then Glastonbury that year had the WHO and Lionel Richie headlining, which I think was 17 and 73 years old apart. And then you can see the conveyor belt problem, which is okay, it's a quick cash grab.

It makes sense. But that's not the conveyor belt of how we developed talent for tomorrow. That's just how we cash in our chips at the casino today. So it does raise questions, I'm not saying it's like the doomsday scenario here, but we just need a healthy balance of, you know, a seeded for future growth and then the big stage for exploiting that moment today, which could be the pyramid stage at Glastonbury, the headlights stage at Monterey over in the States.

So I just think we're getting a little bit lopsided here. We're a bit short termist and how this business needs to develop.

[00:24:57] Dan Runcie: Agreed on that. Switching gears a bit. One thing that you wrote recently that stuck out to me, you did this deep dive on music publishing, and I think this is another area that kind of has some of that short-term, long-term perspective on it, because you look at the people who get the share of the copyright pie, at least today, and from music streaming perspective, a lot of that has been much more in the favor of, the recorded side and then the people getting compensated on the recording side. But with that, the songwriters and the publishers, a lot of them necessarily in that timeframe, didn't get a lot of that. But I think in this wave now where we're seeing more catalog deals and we're seeing people understand the value of that, things may be starting to shift and there's likely other things as well.

But what do you think about the way that the publishing side has been seen in what the future opportunities are for that side of the business?

[00:25:54] Will Page: Well, the way that labels and publishing were taught to me in terms of what makes them distinct from one another goes back to my Aunt Dorian Loader, who worked in the music business from 1959 at Deca Records, right the way through to 2012.

She ran Enzyme records with Nigel Grange, Lucian's Half-Brother. They were responsible for Shead O'Connor, who sold 11 million albums based on the Prince cover. And she once said to me, will, this is how the music industry works. The record label pays for your drugs and the publishing pays for your pension. I just kind of, that's a nice succinct way of summarizing how the business works.

That was then, this is now clearly times have changed, I think, but it reminds us about, you know, what makes the business different. And then that piece of work that you cite is something called global value of copyright, where I'm really keen to educate this. Regardless of whether you're coming from a label perspective, a manager, an artist, a songwriter, there's a C with a circle on it called copyright.

We get that, and it involves record labels. It involves sound exchange. It involves artists. It involves ascap, BMI, GMR, Czek. It involves publishers, David Israeli, and the great folks at the NNPA. It Put the whole thing together for me, all this spaghetti and strain it out. And what I was able to show was that in 2020, copyright was worth 32.5 billion, way bigger than what you've just heard from IFPI way bigger than what Czek would say.

This is the entire thing. And the split was about 65% labels, 35% to the publishers. Now, if you go way back to 2001, when we used to sell CDs by weight of pate. In the cocaine capitalism days, you know, record labels back then. The split was much more in favor of labels, you know, more than three quarter labels, less than a quarter to the publishers.

And what we've seen happen in the years in between is quite an interesting story. Labels went from boom time with CDs to bust with piracy, and now they're booming again with streaming. And the inverse, the opposite happened. Publishers as labels went bust. ASCAP, BMI kept on reporting record breaking collections, so you have a hair tore toys analogy here of labels going really fast and falling off a cliff.

Publishers just trundled along with record breaking, not massive record breaking collections, but it kept on growing their bases. So, the questions these throw up is what type of industry are we moving towards? Are we going back to a business model which paid labels over three quarters of the pie and publishes less than a quarter, and is that a good or a bad thing?

Or in this post Spotify economy where we're seeing companies like Peloton, Twitch, TikTok, come to the business, is that gonna have a completely different balance? Now why this matters to your audience is not just on the crater side, but also on the investment side. You pointed out catalog valuations. We can dig into that if you want, but just a high level point is, let's say that in a few years time, I go into my back cave again, calculate the global value of copyright, and instead of 32 and a half billion, it's 40 billion.

I'll come on Trapital show, I'll make an exclusive announcement. Copyright today is worth 40 billion, seven and a half billion new dollars. Have come into this business, I want the audience to start thinking about who gets what share of that marginal new dollar. Is that gonna split publishing side or is that gonna split label side?

And if you're investing in catalogs, be the master rights, be the author rights that really bears, there's a huge educational drive here to understand the balance of this business of copyright.

[00:29:15] Dan Runcie: So there's a few things you've said there that I wanted to dig into. Of course, for streaming Spotify and its competitors around 75%.

Is going to the recorded side a quarter to publishing. But from a breakdown, what does that look like for the TikToks, the Roblox and the Pelotons? What does that share of revenue from those plays look like?

[00:29:38] Will Page: So, The best way I could do this is if I just talk about ratios. There's three Rs in this business.

There's share of revenue, there's ratio in this rights pool. They mean different things. Most experts get confused. With these three Rs, I'm gonna stick to ratios. That is, if I give the label a dollar, how much do I give the publisher, the songwriter, this collective management organization. So we stick to the conventional streaming model Today, I would say that if you give the record label a dollar, you're giving the publishing side of the.

24 cents, you know, a decent chunk of change. But still the pure cousin of the record label on YouTube, I think it could be as high as 35 cents, 40 cents even. Because there's a sync right? Involved in those deals. And then when you take that observation of imposing the sync right into deal, and you expand it to Peloton or TikTok, potentially even more, and then you can flip it and say, well, what happens if the future of TikTok is karaoke?

Not saying it's gonna happen, but it's not implausible if that was the case. That favors publishers even more. So there's all these weird ways that the business could develop, which could favor one side of the fence. The labels and the artists continue getting three quarters of the cash or the other side of the fence.

Publishers and songwriters start enforcing their rights and getting. A more balanced share and that that's what we need to look out for when we're investing incorporates. That's what we need to look out for. If you're a singer and a songwriter and you're trying to understand your royalty statements

[00:30:57] Dan Runcie: mm-hmm.

Well, like how much higher do you think? I mean, if you had to put a percentage on it for the TOS or the Pelotons, and I guess as well, you made me think of sync deals, right? Like for the folks that are selling, or their song gets placed on one of these hulu series or one of these HBO Max series, like what does that ratio look like, you know, from a ballpark for those.

[00:31:20] Will Page: So I think a 50 50 split would be the upper bend of the goal. If, if a song is placed in a Hulu TV show or you know, an artist I've worked with for many years, Yu Dito Brazilian composer, his songs now in this famous easy Jet commercial over here in Europe. The artists and the publisher would see around a 50 50 split of those revenues.

Now, would that happen in the world of streaming? Unlikely. But I think if you can get to a stage where you're giving the record label a dollar and the publisher 50 cents as a ratio, and I've gotta repeat the word ratio here, you know, that's potentially achievable with this post Spotify economy. I don't think it's gonna happen with the business we're looking at today, but I think that's a potential scenario for the business developing tomorrow.

That's the thing. If I can quote Ralph Simon, a, a longtime mentor to me, he always says, this industry is always about what's happening next. And then he goes on to say, it always has been. It's a great reminder of just, you know, we're restless souls in this business. We've achieved this amazing thing in the past 10 years with streaming.

Got there. Banked there what's coming next, who would've thought Peloton would've had a music licensing department 18 months ago? Now they're like a top 10 account for major labels.

[00:32:30] Dan Runcie: It's impressive. It really is. And I think it's a good reminder because anytime that you get a little bit too bullish and excited about what the current thing is, it's, we always gotta be thinking about what's next.

And you mentioned a few times about a post Spotify economy. What does that look like from your perspective? I think there's likely a number of things that we've already talked about with more of these other B2B platforms or where these other platforms in general, having licensing deals. But when you say, or what do you think about post Spotify economy?

What comes to mind for you?

[00:33:02] Will Page: Let me throw my fist, your words, your jaw, and try and knock you out for a second. We talked about price for a minute, and we talked about streaming. We haven't talked about gaming, but you noticed the Epic Games. It's just acquired band. I learned a fascinating stat about bandcam, which relates to my book Tarzan Economics.

There's a chapter in the book called, "Make or Buy", where I sat down with the management of the band radio head. We went through the entire in Rainbow Story for the first time ever, a real global exclusive. Explain how that deal worked out, what they were really achieving when they did their voluntary tip jar model.

And by the way, can I just put a shout out to one of your listeners and live from the Ben Zion. Best remix of Radiohead I've ever heard in my life is Amplive, Weird Fishez hip hop version of the entire album. But Radiohead tested voluntary tip jar pricing. Now check this out. If you put your album out on Band Cap, could be a vinyl record.

Remember, it's the people who are paying to stream who are also buying vinyl. So if you put a ban, an album, my own banquette, and you say name your own price, no minimum, and there's a guidance there of 10 bucks, the average paid is. People go above 40% asking, and that could be for a super rich blockbuster artist who tries something out in band camp.

That could be for some band who's broken Brooklyn, Robin and coins together, trying to make them breed. People go 40% above asking when you say name your own price. And that's interesting for me. there's a great academic paper by Francesco Cornell from Duke University. She asked, how should you price a museum?

An intuition says Top-down. Museum should set the price. Adults 10 bucks, kids, five bucks, pensioners, some type of discount arrangement. But she said, no, let the visitors set the price because that way rich people will give you even more and poor people can attend and you'll see more cash overall. And I would like to see a little bit more of that experimentation around pricing compared to the past 20 years where we've had a ceiling on price, where if you really love a band, all you can give a platform is $9.99 and not a penny more.

I think that's, we're suffocating love. We're putting a ceiling on love and we need to take that ceiling and smash through it and let people express love through different means. But I love that ban camp story. Whatever you suggest, I'll give you 40% above cuz it's art. We're not dealing with commodity, we're dealing with culture and that's why we gotta remind ourselves.

[00:35:13] Dan Runcie: It's like the Met model, right? Where at least the last time I went, it was like $20 was the recommendation. But to your point, it at least had some vary of a threshold. But the people, a lot of the people that go there that have a lot of money end up giving much more. So I hear you on that. That's a great note to end on. Will, thanks again. Thank you so much.

[00:35:33] Dan Runcie Outro:

If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead.

Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2169 no Picking The Most Valuable Music Catalog Portfolio (with Denisha Kuhlor) https://www.trapital.com/podcast If you had a billion-dollar fund to buy the full rights, masters, and publishing of ANY music artists — who are you acquiring to maximize shareholder value? This question was top of mind for real-life portfolio managers the past three years as music catalog sales boomed. Now my guest on the episode, Denisha Kuhlor, and I are asking ourselves the same hypothetical question. In this episode, we’re doing a mock music rights draft. Akin to the NFL Draft, each of us getting seven picks. Any artists’ catalog, living or dead, is on the table for us to acquire. Our goal is to score the biggest ROI for investors on a 10-year timeline from purely catalog revenue — streaming, syncs, and partnerships, among other sources. Touring or merchandise revenue isn’t factored in, and neither are future catalog releases, only what’s already been released.  As you’ll see on this episode, Denisha and I took very different approaches to our portfolios. One was more “risk on”, while the other was filled with more “blue chips.” Here’s what to expect: [0:01] Draft parameters  [4:51] First-round picks [9:42] Second-round picks [14:21] Third-round picks [18:49] Fourth-round picks [21:55] Fifth-round picks [26:04] Sixth-round picks [29:20] Seventh-round picks [37:33] Honorable mentions  [52:21] Up-and-coming artists Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor Today’s episode was brought to you by feature.fm. Grow your fanbase  and music career with their marketing suite. Get 50% off your first three months by using code: TRAPITAL50 Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT Denisha Kuhlor: We've talked about Burna Boy on the podcast before, so don't necessarily have to go over all of his stats, but I think that in one thing I'm finding with people discovering, music from the continent. Is that when they like the artist or there's things they like about the artist or the genre, they go back and listen, to the past catalog. And so I feel like there's still a lot of untouched ground in terms of people discovering his music and listening to his whole catalog and given how timeless in a lot of ways some of his music feels, I think that we'll have new fans discovering him over and over for a long time and getting to also benefit from the upside of that catalog is great. I'll also say, he's pretty feature light as well. He's increased the amount of features that he's had in some of his more recent albums, but even like him, some of his breakout singles, whether Ye or Last Last, were Independence, or songs that he did independently and didn't have people featuring. So I think in terms of some of the big records, there's solo records, which is exciting and that his catalog has a lot of value for people to discover and wanna to. Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  Dan Runcie: Today's episode is one I am really excited for. This is a music rights draft. We are going to be breaking down the artists that we would most wanna have their music rights for. So today's guest friend of the podcast, Denisha Kuhlor, founder of Stan, her and I are both managers of billion dollar funds and we can acquire the full rights, Masters and publishing to any artist, living or dead. And our job is to maximize value for our investors for the next 10 years. We each get to pick 10 artists and their full rights of music, and we draft them one by one. Denisha, are you ready? How are you feeling? Denisha Kuhlor: I am, I'm super excited for this. like keep racking my head, I think till the last minute with each pick. but yeah, I'm ready to get  Dan Runcie: started. Right. It's funny because we're chatting about this yesterday and I almost wonder like if our chat yesterday like shifts anything, it's like, oh, okay. That's how you're thinking about this. Okay. That's how I'm thinking about this. Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly, in a funny way, I have some more compassion for venture investors because I can see how societal shift or even group think can shift your perspective even if just a bit.  Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's fascinating, and I mean with this, we did try to keep the parameters of it a bit clear because obviously in the real music rights acquisition world, there are many different strategies about how these firms are buying and acquiring these rights. Some of them are sitting and holding on them, but we are putting ourselves in a different bucket. We are assuming that we have the means to maximize this catalogs and this artist's value through multimedia, through sync, through other partnerships, and just the revenue that it naturally generates as sound recordings themselves. And we assume that we're only acquiring what that artist has released up to that point. Of course, what that artist continues to do in the future may shift the perception of the value of what they've done, but we are only looking at what they've done up to this point. So we're saying that just to lay the groundwork, because someone may be like, oh, what about so-and-so and so-and-so may be an artist that blew up in the past five years. They may not have Steve as a catalog, but who knows? Maybe we'll both have a few of those picks. Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Super exciting  Dan Runcie: All right, so we are gonna be so a few things to just keep in mind as well for listeners. So a few of the factors you both considered were expected longevity of the artist music themselves, which is a big piece of this. You're acquiring these rights, you're trying to get a sense for what is the music that people are still going to listen to, right? It's one thing if you dominate the charts, that you have a song that takes off, but there's a decay curve. So we're trying to find those artists that have the value, but have the much less steep decay curve as it goes down year over year. There's also a mix too. There's the stable picks, which a lot of the rights go after, which are attractive, but there's also some higher upside picks or some riskier bets. Where do those fit in? And then we're also taken into account the share of the song recordings that the artists actually have given that certain genres such as hip hop or r and b and pop music specifically, there's a lot more collaboration. There's a lot more hands being shared in that pot. So, how does that line up with another genre where that artist may have a higher percentage of those things? All those things get factored into how we pick this. So I'm ready to get started and I wanna give you the first pick so you can go and then I'll go after that. Denisha Kuhlor: Oh, thank you, so my first pick is Mariah Carey. for a few reasons. One, Mariah Carey has one of the most amazing songs in her collection, with Christmas, right? Like it's just being Christmas time, every Christmas, you know, you're going to get, a spike in revenue. Mariah Carey's also been very notable, about talking about that. She writes a lot of her own music, and I don't think how many people realize how much of a prolific songwriter that she is as well. And with the nature of R and B, much to what you talked about earlier with it being collaborative, Mariah Carey seems to be embraced by a lot of rappers for samples. So while I definitely think it will be pricey based off literally, all I want for Christmas, if anything, I think that it's. It's a bit of a safe, but also Sure. Fire and, and stable. expectation revenue.  Dan Runcie: That was my number two pick. So we're definitely aligned there. It makes perfect sense because even if you, all I want for Christmas is a big piece of the pie, I wanna say 300 million streams per year on Spotify was the stat that I heard, and I forget the exact revenue number that it generates. I don't wanna quote it, but it's huge. Almost 20 number one singles that she's had. So the longevity's there, and as we know we're talking about this a little yesterday, but there's a reason that catalog isn't one that's getting acquired because, A, the people that own it, and I know she may own maybe some of the more recent stuff. I don't know if, Columbia still owns, you know, the stuff from the nineties, especially given the nature of her deal and stuff like that. But I mean, it's up there, it's definitely one of the most valuable ones. So good. Yeah. Good for you on that one. So I'll take my number one pick here and the number one pick. For this, for me, so much of it was thinking about how millennials and this group are the dominant users of streaming. Streaming makes up a bulk of the revenue for these streaming services. And who is the biggest artist for millennials overall? Just you look at the sheer numbers and everything like that, it has to be Taylor Swift. Miss 1989 herself, I will take those albums, especially these rerecorded ones, Taylor's version, because they're Denisha Kuhlor: That's just what I was gonna ask. Dan Runcie: Yeah. I may not get Scooter bronze version, but I'll get Taylor's version and I'll keep that. I think that it's rare to find a star that has as much impact as she does that is as recent in this way, I mean, just the pure demand for this Eras tour. She could have done 10 x times the number of shows and been touring for the next five years in a in stadiums and still had plenty of demand left over. And of course, we're not counting touring revenue in this, but it just goes to show how big everything else is. The fact that midnights broke records, both in streaming and in hard sales, I think I saw 230 million dollars that album generated in its revenue. Of course. That her entire rights will likely be owned, you know, herself just given the Taylor's version of everything. Currently I'm licensed with Republican Universal Music Group. But if in a perfect world you could acquire that, I will take that. She's able to dominate in all of these multiple platforms and if we're really trying to say, okay, 10 years from now, each of her albums is still in the top 50 of the billboard, 200, just from like a rankings perspective. Well, not all of 'em, but a lot of them, and I think it's harder to come by. So yeah, I'll take T Swift. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think it's definitely a solid pick her music evokes so much nostalgia especially as her fans get older, that they'll be listening to it for life, right? Because it's not necessarily attached to a moment or even a recency of today, even though they can appreciate that. it's, yeah, it's music that's the soundtrack to their lives. So, it makes a ton of sense. And she's also another prolific songwriter, so I would assume, from an ownership perspective, it's quite attractive. Dan Runcie: Yeah. Not as attractive as Mariah though, because I feel like Taylor more recently, especially with the more pop albums, there was a lot of Max Martin production and a lot of other big name folks and you know, Kendrick Lamar, guest verses and stuff like that. And Mariah had some of that, but I still feel like she always had like her single, you know what I mean? It's like  Yeah. fantasy was, they had a remix with ODB or they had a honey remix with the lock, but there was still the core Mariah version that was just Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, that's a great point. The breakout has frequently remained just her. Yeah.  Dan Runcie: so we'll see. But yeah, who's your second pick? Denisha Kuhlor: So my second pick, I thought a lot too about, like world music as we say, or just music that's global. much to your point as well around streaming. I kind of think that it's exciting to pick, an artist that can dominate globally that's, not necessarily a pop artist. And so for that, I went back and forth. Probably two of the biggest artists. but landed on Bad Bunny, Bad Bunny to me is one just an amazing and exciting artist. He also has a great amount of volume, but much to the point we just made about Mariah Carey's, Taylor Swifts, I think he's really optimized a lot of his catalog, for music that he makes and that music that he solely makes. Additionally, and I know we're not counting touring, but the sheer amount of numbers he's done touring, I think has not only earned him new fans, but earned him kind of the same type of fan appetite that Taylor Swift has in which the music will evoke a certain nostalgia, whether they saw him perform it on top of a gas station or when he was driving through the Bronx, that leads them to want to continue to listen to this music for the rest of their lives, which hopefully will be financially lucrative. Dan Runcie: He was on my list as well. You can't ignore just the huge, massive success of this last album, UN Varano Centi. We saw that album dominate week after week after week, and it, the songs are still on Spotify's Top 50 and they're still having traction there. And in an era where there's just so much more music, if you can get a song like that that comes out in 2022 that's still coming out or just an album, it's rare and I know we talk a lot about how monoculture itself is just harder to come by from a artist that is in the US or UK just because those markets are so much more saturated. But the closest we get to anyone reaching Beatlemania is someone like Bad Bunny. So that's a great. Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly, exactly. I also think a lot both, Drake's wrapped about Bad Bunny numbers and Kanye's reference Bad Bunny's, success. And so I feel like even if his peers in the industry are kind of in some ways either looking at him aspirationally or like he's one that could potentially, hit my success, is also a great indicator. Dan Runcie: All right, so the next pick I have here is, you mentioned him a second ago, the streaming king himself, 70 million streams. Drake, it's hard to think about the streaming era and not think about him. Just the massive hits that he's had and every time that he releases an album, it still creates this moment that few have the ability to be able to reach moving forward. I know Birdman will never give up those rights, and Young Money extensively will never give up those rights, but if I had the choice, I would take it. I think the knock against Drake potentially though I will acknowledge is that one. Just the high number of features and samples with all that, there's a high, there's a less likelihood that he may own all or just have a higher percentage of the revenue coming in for this stuff. But just the sheer volume of whether it's the mixtapes, the playlist, the little two packs that he puts out, the albums, especially some of the ones from like, especially the cash money albums, honestly, from, when was that? So I guess you had 2010, it was official first album, but you had so far gone oh nine and then everything up to Scorpion. Yeah, those are the biggest albums of the last decade. So I'll take Drake Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. super solid pick. As someone who has seen Drake in concert 10 times, there's a few things recently. Yeah. 10 times.  Yeah. So a few things that stuck out to me with Trigg specifically, The Serious Show. So the serious show was a lot of like deep cuts or songs that he hasn't recently performed on some of his tours. And you could just see that fans loved it, right? A lot of people wanted access to tickets and really loved the music. And then, lastly in part of, in going to these tours, there were so many times that I saw, that he would like go off of stage and to keep the crowd like engaged. They would do a whole set of his music that he wasn't going to perform, and the crowd literally went just as crazy as if he was on, if he was on stage so much to just like the emotional factor that his catalog has. I feel like Drake has provided the music of a generation. And so, regardless volume wise, they'll be continuing to listen for a long time. Dan Runcie: Who's your number two? Denisha Kuhlor: So next I'm going with Burna Boy. one, we've talked about Burna Boy on the podcast before, so don't necessarily have to go over all of his stats, but I think that in one thing I'm finding with people discovering, music from the continent. Is that when they like the artist or there's things they like about the artist or the genre, they go back and listen, to the past catalog. And so I feel like there's still a lot of untouched ground in terms of people discovering his music and listening to his whole catalog and given how timeless in a lot of ways some of his music feels, I think that we'll have new fans discovering him over and over for a long time and getting to also benefit from the upside of that catalog is great. I'll also say, he's pretty feature light as well. He's increased the amount of features that he's had in some of his more recent albums, but even like him, some of his breakout singles, whether Ye or Last Last, were Independence, or songs that he did independently and didn't have people featuring. So I think in terms of some of the big records, there's solo records, which is exciting and that his catalog has a lot of value for people to discover and wanna to.  Dan Runcie: Yeah, he was on the list as well, and I think the attractive thing with him is similar to the bad Bunny perspective where almost more so because if you are one of the signature artists that is on this entire continent, well, I think for him, obviously more West Africa, but if you're one of the signature artists that's on this entire continent, you have the closer thing to that Beattlemania effect. And as more people there have access to streaming as more of that just grows and develops, you're going to get that curve too that just grows naturally with what's already there. And you can't undersell that. And I think given an artist like that too, there's probably huge sync opportunities as multimedia and entertainment starts to grow from that, from, from those parts of the worlds too. So there's a lot of value there. Yeah. Denisha Kuhlor: exactly.  Who do you  have  Dan Runcie: pick, this is a pick with the mind and not necessarily with the heart, but I am a, in the role of a asset manager or not the role of a fan. And my pick here is Eminem and my pick for Eminem, and the reason I pick him is because his music is still some of the most streamed music across the board. And his Curtains Call album was the bestselling rap album in the UK in 2022. His greatest hits album from 2005 was the best selling rap album 17 years later. And I remember seeing that stat and I was just like, wow. And then you just think about the nature of his music. And even though he's someone that I feel, if you're someone that lives in the Twitter circles that you and I live in, Eminem is someone that I think has largely fallen out of popular discourse. And people do look at him a bit more, distinctly in a way that they did in 20 years ago. But if you don't live in those circles, which the majority of people don't, they still listen to his music and still revere him. And just on a sheer number perspective, there's probably more people that listen to hip hop that have an artist like Eminem and their top three and they're top two and not two. And you look at some of the numbers as well for songs like Till I Collapse and Lose Yourself, that just get played over and over for people working out and all of these things. Those songs have a timelessness to them. I mean, on stats, he was the bestselling like recorded artist of the two thousands. He was up there for the 2010s. He still tours massively, and even though a lot of his albums that probably generate the most revenue are songs that I'm no longer listening to, I can acknowledge that this has huge value. And as an asset manager, as a fund manager, I would do quite well with that, with his rights. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. No, I don't know if that's where I would have went, but after hearing your explanation, it makes a ton of sense. Eminem fans are, independent in the sense that they're fans regardless of whether he's the top of a pop culture, relevancy or not. yeah, I think, that's really, really interesting. And the Stan's side, he literally pioneered the word we all use today, so I think in some ways too, people forget just, how impactful culturally he's been. so yeah, that makes a  Dan Runcie: Nice. All right. who's your. Denisha Kuhlor: So for my next one, I kind of wanted to go in a direction of some newer artists that are still proving themselves out of it, but I think have a lot of potential. but keeping in mind to what they've done so far, I wanna go with Lizzo. I. think of Lizzo, you know, a lot of us were actually introduced, to her in because of a sync, in one of the, in a movie on Netflix. I'm blanking on the name of the movie, but that sync actually introduced me, to her. I think that Lizzo's music is just like the perfect type of music for a movie trailer, in the sense of some of her upbeat, more like pop, pop records. It's like the perfect songs to usher in like a romcom. So from a sing perspective, I think it has a lot of potential. She's also known as, pretty talented on the songwriting side, so I think the ownership would be, I think the ownership would be attractive. and in her last tours, she's done pretty well while also there were smaller venues, the fan base and her having an engaged fan base is definitely there as well. Obviously and from an asset manager perspective, definitely wouldn't be looking to pick it up. But the numbers I've picked up, some of my earlier bets, but I think it would be a fun bet to have and see how it does in the future. Dan Runcie: It's funny because she's someone that I think she has a very high diehard fan to fan ratio, if that makes sense. And I say that because she's someone who. Does quite well. She sells out arenas and she does multiple shows in some cities, in arenas, in an era where it's very hard to get artists that are topping the charts with their streaming to sell out the same venues. The knock against her though is that she doesn't stream necessarily as well. Like she hasn't had an album that's like top the charts. I don't think she's had, you know, a 100K in the first week necessarily. But those fans do show up. so there's something to be said there. I think the other thing too, when you're mentioning the sync, I was thinking about, you know, that car, I think it's Carnival Cruise, that commercial, and it has that song that's like Hands to the Sky. Show me that your mind, like, I didn't even realize that was a Lizzo song until I just looked it up because it was stuck in my head and I'm like, oh, that's a Lizzo song from like 2016, like Pret Truth. So I think you're right with the sync piece of it. I mean, a song like Truth Hurts Itself, juice, literally anything from whether it's special or the album before this, I think that there is strong potential there. So I think Lizzo is definitely a good multimedia play. Assuming like we are in this role, you have the ability to maximize the asset. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, exactly, exactly. It definitely comes down to maximization of the asset on her part, and in a way. I don't see streaming continuing to go up. I think her engage fans like her, they listen to her, and they keep it at, and they keep it at that. So without kind of very targeted, like a targeted approach to maximizing her syncs, the asset becomes less attractive. Dan Runcie: So the next pick, and this is a bit strategic because I wanna take this artist before you take them, is SZA and. picking SZA because she obviously doesn't have a huge catalog. We're talking two studio albums really, that have came out. But if I could get those studio albums for a good price, I'm getting an album in control that is literally stayed on the charts for five years. People are listening, streaming and buying the hell out of that thing, and it hasn't really stopped. And this album is setting all these records and every time you see what the 10, 11 weeks that SSA's SOS has been at the top of the charts, that's in the territory with like Adele, Beyonce and all these other artists because first here's breaking records for female R and B artists then is just, you know, female artists. Now it's artists in general, like how many people are at those levels. So sure. I don't think I'm necessarily gonna have to pay Taylor Swift, Drake or Eminem numbers to get SZA rights, but this is a hits game, and if I can get two of her hits, certified hits albums, that could be worth more than 10 of someone else's mediocre ones. Denisha Kuhlor: I completely agree. SZA is it makes so much sense. It makes so much sense. I'd also say what's so exciting about CSA when you think about it is two studio albums and being able to maintain that relevancy and the sheer amount of time that those albums have lived, is so exciting and you can continue to maximize those two albums even for years to come. Because for everyone, it still feels very relevant. Dan Runcie: All right. Who's your, you've picked five, right? Okay, so last two picks. who's your sixth pick? Denisha Kuhlor: Yes. So I'm gonna keep the S theme here with SZA. and this one was somewhat a big streaming play. but Summer Walker, summer Walker was one that initially when I first made this list, didn't come to mind to be honest. But as I thought about it, and I will probably mention this more in some of my honorable mentions, but I was going for Usher, and I thought about the record that they had together and thought about a lot of the records that Summer Walker has broken.  and shout out to the folks that love Renaissance, I think that people don't even realize or truly understand how big of an artist she's been, from a streaming perspective. she's had some really impressive numbers when she releases the album, she's done great numbers. and People continue to listen to her. I also think, you know, she's toyed around with retiring as well as not doing, as well as not doing tours, creating less opportunities for fans to be able to interact with her, which, fortunately or unfortunately leads them back to her music as that's one of the only sources of ways that they can interact with her. So, I don't know if I see as much sync potential with an artist like her as I would maybe a Lizzo, but I think she can continue to generate solid, solid streaming numbers, for years, for years.  Dan Runcie: a good pick. It's funny, she's someone that's not on my list, but when you mentioned her I was like, I can't believe I'd even think of the think of her. But you're absolutely right. She has, especially from a streaming perspective, she has numbers that rival some of the artists that we mentioned before when it comes to streaming and on average, streaming is making up 70 to 80% often of the revenue that comes in from these music rights. So, it makes sense to be able to have that. And I think that just given how much she's been able to speak to an audience that doesn't really have as many people speaking directly to them as well in this way of, okay, who is making music for black women, who is making like doing that? And I think when you think about it that way, that list does become slim. Especially when we're talking about artists at this level, obviously, you know, touring and some of the more personal things of just like being out there that isn't her style, that isn't her vibe or her personality necessarily. But we don't necessarily need that and I think that there's clearly value in over it, still over it. And, you know, the small features and things that she's done here and there since then.  Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah.  Dan Runcie: All right. So mine, I have two picks left. this is where it does get tough because, looking through some of these names and there's some ones that I like and, okay, so I am going to take Bruno Mars and I'm gonna take Mars because the fact that he has music that I think honestly can transcend in terms of the versatility of the music. Songs like 24K Magic or Uptown Funk, or. Denisha Kuhlor: Very intergenerational as well.  Dan Runcie: Yeah. You hear, could hear it in the supermarket, you could hear it being out, like you could hear it in syncs or different types of things, even the more recent stuff with Silk Sonic and getting his chair of that with with Anderson .Paak there, I think there's a huge potential there. I can't speak as much to the hard numbers, but I do think that the multimedia opportunities are there. He's a pit maker and I think it would be valuable to have his stuff in there. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so from kind of a multimedia or even multidisciplinary perspective, my next one is Pharrell. Pharrell's been a part of a lot of really big records, records that feel intergenerational. I would say, and I don't know the numbers of this. I would say his streaming probably isn't in the highest percentile, but it's also not in the lowest percentile. Like it's somewhere probably in the media, in the middle, given all the records he's been a part of. That makes it kind just a steady asset and also transcends multiple decades in a way that if something does come back in style, You can benefit from that upside. He also has a few records, I think about a record like Happy, that sync wise I think will continue to be used for years and years to come, in a host of ways. So Pharrell is one that could be a really safe bet or maybe a really unsafe bet, just dependent on how, things go. But I think there's enough factors, in, which he falls kind of nicely in to justify the bet. But I will say I don't think it will be, I don't think it will be cheap  but I do think it can have a big upside. Dan Runcie: The upside smart thing about that pick, he's someone else I didn't think of, but I think it was a really good pick because you get the artist Pharrell and you get the producer Pharrell, so you get everything from, I forget that Sta but when was it? In 2002 or 2003, the Neptunes were responsible for 43% of the music that was on top 40 radio that was on, you know, pop So you get all those songs and then you get any of the stuff you did with NERD, you get any of like the Child Rebel Soldier stuff. I mean it makes a lot of sense. And then even songs like, Get Lucky was huge as well. I know that there's been a bunch of controversy around blurred lines, but I'm still sure that the revenue from that song continues to be massive. So I think that's a smart pick. Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. And I think in the future we'll see kind of that doubling, right? artists like a Pharrell will continue to be super valuable when it comes to being able to capture the peak of their rights because they just have them. Dan Runcie: Definitely, definitely. so then with the last pick, it's funny, I hesitated with this one a bit, but I'm gonna go ahead and pick it anyway. It's probably the catalog or the rights that would go for the most money if anyone's was on the table at all right now. And it's Michael Jackson and I'm going to take his, because the fact that Thriller is now over 40 years old and I think that the baseline for streams from that song and streams from everything else is quite high. It is strong and there's value there. This is another one where I think I'm separating a bit of the personal versus the, you know, actual like business asset aspect of it, because I do think that the multimedia aspect of it. Yeah. You know, that would be difficult, and even me as an asset manager would probably be finding ways to create multimedia opportunities for that asset continuing forward. But on the other hand, there's still Broadway musicals, there's still Vegas intimate shows that they are creating off of this person's music. I think Variety had released that report a couple of months ago that said that they were in talks of a 900 million sale for half of the rights. I forget like exactly what the terms would be and including a few things, but I felt like that was too big not to ignore from an asset management perspective. So it would be the Michael Jackson rights for the final pick. Denisha Kuhlor: Wow. That's a really strong, a really strong final pick and makes my last pick even harder.  Dan Runcie: You had seven though, right?  Denisha Kuhlor: Yes, I did. I did. My seventh one is just a different caliber Dan Runcie: Wait, wait. You, oh, oh, oh. With Pharrell you mean? Denisha Kuhlor: no, no, no, no. So my seventh one actually is,  Dan Runcie: Wait, wait. Did we miss one? Hold on. Let me just run through it real quick. You had Mariah, Bad Bunny, Burna Boy, Lizzo, Summer Walker, Pharrell  Denisha Kuhlor: Yes Dan Runcie: Oh, oh. We both have one more. Oh, okay. I missed up. Okay. You're right, you're right. Yeah. okay.  All one? Denisha Kuhlor: Yes. So my last pick is DMX. One, I think in a lot of ways DMX has a very unique style of music. It has a very unique style of rap. Talking to a lot of, or not talking to, but I guess watching their interviews. A lot of rappers are very inspired by DMX and he still gets credited, for, you know, rap styles or little lines that, artists borrow or throw in their music and he has a bit of a high sample potential. I think we'll see some of his music sampled more and oddly enough, whether it's like a movie, like a Creed or something like that, this sheer like BPM of some of his music, is definitely attractive from like a sync perspective. For, upbeat movies that wanna like, leverage a rap song or leverage hip hop. and I also think, and he's done very well in getting quite a few syncs when it comes to video games, I'm thinking about sings so often this podcast from a movie perspective, but gaming syncs are huge as well. and DMX's music is quite huge in the gaming community. So if anything, from an, optimizing the asset perspective, I would focus on optimizing his syncs for gaming, because of the BPM of his music. And I think I would get it at a favorable rate. Dan Runcie: Yeah, I couldn't imagine there might be some high ROI potential there, I would say and just given how dominant that run was, and I think some people forget. Yeah. Each of those first albums was just like, you know, topping the charts and everything. Especially from like 98 to 03'. it was, on, I mean, there were other rappers who may have had like, you know, bigger commercial success at that time from whether it was someone like Eminem or some others. But in terms of like relevance, that still matters to a lot of people and how that can continue. X is up there. Do you think we'll see an X movie at some point? Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I hope we do. and that's how I reference, how a lot of rappers like, feel about him because musicians appreciating another artist are probably our most likely way. You see obviously 50 cent, 50 cent in TV and film production, Drake with Euphoria, even Childish Gambino, right? So him being revered by other artists I think puts him on the best path for us to see that. which also would be  Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a good pick. So I think so. I actually, but now my seventh pick, because I'm like re-looking at these. I had Taylor, Drake, Eminem, SZA, Bruno Mars, Michael, and then now the seventh pick. this is tough, but, I'm gonna take the Weeknd and I'm gonna take him because  Denisha Kuhlor: Oh, amazing.  Dan Runcie: I think it's really hard to have a song that's been released like in the pandemic era of music that still tops the charts, but everything from After Hours is still getting so much radio play. He just did a remix with Ariana Grande, Die For You, a song that came out now, what, seven years ago. And that song had topped the charts. He has this ability to just, I think it's him and a handful of other artists that just have this ability to make music that can continue to like pierce through. I mean, we didn't get as much of that from Don FM but I think even he himself, like that album didn't get as much, you know, focus the same way that everything from After Hours did. And  he has this way of just kind of capturing, a generation just with like the feel and the vibe, I think sync potential, especially as he's gonna be in more movies now himself and what that could look like. So, yeah definitely. Denisha Kuhlor: That's super strong. He makes hits. Dan Runcie: Another pop artist, so I know, you know, there's a bunch of Max Martin and other producers that'll get their share, but I'll take his, so, Yeah. No, super. Right. So yeah, so let's just round out the lists here. and then let's share. So with the first pick, and then in order you took Mariah Carey, then Bad Bunny, then Burna Boy, then Lizzo, Summer Walker, then Pharrell Williams and DMX. And then I took Taylor Swift, Drake, Eminem, SZA, Bruno Mars, Michael Jackson, and the Weeknd. So, yeah. How are you feeling about your picks? Did you feel like you got the artist that you wanted? Do you feel like you, you know, got the ones that you wanted to like, lighten everything up? Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I do. I think that some of those artists are bets that would hopefully, positively surprise me. but there's enough artists, within those picks that I know revenue will be generated and will have a positive upside regardless. If anything, we can continue to crown on Mariah Carey and some of Pharrell's records and even just the dominance Bad Bunny continues to have for a very long time while also seeing, how dominant, for decades to come an artist like a Summer Walker. Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think if we were to look at these catalogs like, or look at both of our portfolios, I think you would have like the Vanguard Growth Fund and I would have like the Vanguard Blue Chip Fund if that makes sense. Right? Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly, exactly.  Dan Runcie: You know, you may generate some higher returns, but with that, you know, there's more risk that comes with it as well. but yeah, mine, think it's probably assumed that you would generate higher returns because I feel like SZA's probably the, not even like, oh, it's probably the pick of mine that is the least blue chip relative to the rest of them. And yeah. enough, even someone like Bruno Mars is probably more skewed towards less of that certified pick on mine just because of how much of a more, strong base the other artists do have. Denisha Kuhlor: Totally. If I had to, compare thinking about venture, I would say you definitely took like a series C, series D, growth fund, with a few, maybe more Series A, like a series A pick. I think maybe this is to my roots, I took more of a series B potentially with a good opportunity fund and skewed heavily ine and seed, with a few of those artists as well.  Dan Runcie: No, that makes sense. That makes sense. What were some of your honorable mentions? Yeah, maybe you can name like three, maybe first I wanna do honorable mentions, and then second, I wanna talk about some rising folks. Maybe some people that you would've picked, but maybe you didn't pick, because it's like, no, it's too early. It's too early, right? But yeah, Denisha Kuhlor: let yeah, no,  Dan Runcie: with the honorable mentions like who are one or two that you had considered? Denisha Kuhlor: For sure. So the biggest honorable mention for me is  Usher,  Dan Runcie: yep. He  Denisha Kuhlor: um  Dan Runcie: mine too. Denisha Kuhlor: usher,  the Vegas residency, the, tiny desk Usher's been having a phenomenal few last years. and I think people don't even realize the residency really brought it back for a lot of people. The breadth of his catalog's so talented, his music is intergenerational or continues to transcend generations. Usher was one that I thought a lot about. I was kind of going back and forth between Usher and Pharrell, and I picked Pharrell because of the exposure to so many other artists that he has. but Usher was a really, really big one. Dan Runcie: Yeah, he was on my list too, because I think similarly, this Vegas residency has created a moment and it's hard to be able to do that. I can't speak to, I haven't looked at his stream numbers and I mean, I really even like back when I feel like Usher's music was at like the top of pop culture and stuff. I don't, I wasn't tracking, oh, how high Confessions on the Billboard 200. That's just not something that I thought or cared about time, but I think that he's won. He was on my list as well. Someone else that was on my list too was, Kendrick Lamar was on my list too, because good kid, m.A.A.d city's been on the charts for a decade plus. People are still listening to that, and that's higher charts now than what the last album is. Mr. Morale, the big step was, I know that album was more controversial but the fact that Damn and, good kid, m.A.A.d city are still on the charts. You have still Pimp A Butterfly. You never know what type of multimedia opportunities that can turn into. I think if you're talking at least in my opinion, like pure like bar for bar, like the best like rapper lyricist of the past decade plus, I think it is him and there's something to be said for what value have. So yeah, he was who I was going back and forth with him and the Weeknd, for that seventh pick. But yeah, he was my honor, audible mention. Denisha Kuhlor: Kendrick pick is strong. my rap honorable mention is actually J. Cole  Dan Runcie: Yep. I had him on the list.  Denisha Kuhlor: As someone that gets mentioned in, a lot of the conversations with Kendrick and I think for Cole, a few reasons. one, the whispers of retiring are looming and we know that he has the desire to retire sometime in the near future. So I think people will cherish the records that he has even more, the fan base of the Dreamville built is super engaged. super active, and I think we'll be that way for a long time to come. And J. Cole, you know, picked up a lot of good features when he was coming up. Maybe it's the Rock Nation effect or whatever, but he has some amazing features, whether it's, party with Beyonce or just like, he has some really great features that he's gotten as well.  So yeah, that's one I would be super excited to have. Dan Runcie: Every time I look at hits, daily double stats, just seeing who's trending. No role models is always on that chart somewhere. and it's now been, eight and a half, nine years since that song came out. So it's a hits game. If I can get one of the biggest rap songs of the decade and one of the more popular rap albums of the decade too, then you take that obviously so many other hits as you mentioned Party, and a lot of the other ones that he's then. But that song, I think itself is worth at least bringing the conversation up. A few people that I didn't mention, but I'm curious if they came up for you. We can just keep these kind of rapid fire before we get to the Rising But did you consider Ed Sheeran? Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I did, I thought a lot about like having UK representation, . and he came up for me there. He's also done a lot of like features with, African artists, whether it's Stormzy, Burna Boy, but I ultimately shied away from him. I don't even know if I have the right things to point to it, but something didn't feel right. Dan Runcie: Okay. He was on the list I had as well. I just preferred the other ones more. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Like it's not even fully like quantitative, like no. Yeah, It just, yeah, like he was compelling, but not compelling enough to make you wanna get excited.  Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's like I know that Divide was a huge album. I know that Shape of You is probably one of the biggest hits of the past 15 years if we're going back that far. But yeah, you know, it's just kind of tough cuts. I mean, yeah, I'm sure that al that catalog will probably generate more revenue overall, maybe then like scissors, like someone that I took. But I that Ed Sheeran's catalog isn't gonna come at, you know, a cheap cost, but who knows? So he's at least someone I thought about. Did you consider, this is going back a little bit further, but did you consider Celine Dion? Denisha Kuhlor: Oh, no, I didn't. But Celine Deion makes so much sense for so many reasons, but I didn't, you know, I'm thinking about my picks, probably Mariah Carey and DMX were as far back as went and that's because I was thinking about the streaming optimization as well, with the number you said. And IFPI's latest report streaming is just taking so much of the conversation. I would probably go for a lookalike audience to Celine Dion, so maybe more like an Adele, which also wouldn't come cheap. but audience that is a little more, well, didn't I take Adele? I think that Adele almost, in a way like Ed Sheeran, for all the right reasons. It's like, no, I wouldn't get pushback if I was thinking about my LPs comment saying, I don't get pushback in any way for picking Adele, but in a lot of ways Adele feels safe. And while her music is easily recognizable and does well, her type of music in a lot of ways, doesn't really feel like something that you play and stream over and over almost in the way that Taylor Swift's music does. and so while ballads are great, and I think people really, really love them from a replay value on streaming, I just didn't get as excited as I wanted to. Dan Runcie: I think you're right because I think that the reason that I didn't take her is because I thought that it could have easily been a catalog and rights that you would overpay for because of the name and everything that she's done. But when you look at the pure streaming numbers, yeah, I know that Easy on me had like broken records at the time, but still those records I believe got broken like a week later or a month later by BTS or whoever else, it was Bad Bunny and since then Taylor Swift, right? So yeah, I questioned the replay value and I do think that because, yeah, I thought that it would've been high compared to some of these other artists. Going back to the Celine point, I think you were right, because I also shifted a bit just thinking about how big the streaming error is and how that generates so much cattle revenue for this. And one of the big thesis that I've had overall with music rights sales and acquisition is that a lot of these deals have overvalued the artists from the seventies and eighties and undervalued the from the nineties and two thousands. Because if you thinking about the dominant we're streaming as and who are the dominant generation of those consumers, as great as you know, Celine and others were, the songs that are most likely to resonate are like Taylor Swift and Drake, you know, are gonna be more relevant to this generation than Madonna or Celine Dion or some of the others. And I did consider. Madonna as well, just thinking about it. I know this next tour she's gonna do on is gonna be big, but I held back then for the same Celine thing. It's like, yeah, maybe if this was 20 years ago when we were doing this draft in 2003, then maybe I would've taken Celine Dion or Madonna but I think that decay curve is definitely, you know, flattened a bit where maybe the upside, not just the upside potential, but the consistency just may not be, or not the consistency. Obviously it's consistent, but it just didn't seem to valuable as some of these other picks. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. No, I agree. And I think, you know, in like working the music or working the records, so you can optimize your catalog. You have to kind of think about who's making the decisions now or who's coming into power now. and some of those executives are younger. and so, thinking about how they might place value, even though they're familiar, obviously with the brand and the artists, on a premium for that music, I think it would be a much longer conversation much to what you said, which is probably why some of these artists were willing to sell, and kind of let the asset manager deal with the headache of justifying the value while they've extracted the value from the asset manager who's excited to go out and  Dan Runcie: Yeah. Did you consider Beyonce? Denisha Kuhlor: I did consider Beyonce. I just, it's expensive very, very, very expensive. it would be, I think, you know, Beyonce is an interesting one. She's actually one of my favorites in the sense that I think uses her catalog really well with all kind of the moments that she's had, whether it's the Super Bowl or, her Coachella performance. She reworks her music in a way that continues to feel new. Like as an artist, almost to the point of where I also had trepidation with Adele, how Adele navigates her artistry. while I respect, and obviously we want artists that set boundaries. I don't know if it's in my best interest as an artist, right? She kind of drops her music and waits long stretches before going back her choice to cancel her tour and do a Las Vegas residency, means there'll be a lot of places untouched unless she decides to, venture out. Whereas someone like Beyonce is exciting because her music is always being brought back, right? I did consider, interestingly enough, Destiny's child, because I feel like I, it would get the upside of every time a Beyonce performs or has a big, moment on the world stage, at a price point. And maybe Beyonce's part wouldn't be up for grabs, but other people's would at a price point that would be attractive. Dan Runcie: The other thing about Beyonce too is that she's kind of like Lizzo, but magnified in this sense that very high touring to streaming output, if that makes sense. But I don't get to collect tour revenue. I'm collecting the music rights and a lot of the songs from Renaissance. So if you compare the streaming of SZA's SOS to Beyonce's Renaissance, like it isn't even close. SZA's is much more popular there and the same way that I'm seeing good kid, m.A.A.d city and 2014 Forest Hill drives and Eminem's Greatest hits albums like still at the top of that charts. I'm not seeing the same thing for Lemonade or Beyonce in a way that's almost surprising because you feel like, okay, the generational impact, those records are huge. Everyone revered them, but this is a game and they just aren't at that And I know you'd have to pay a premium because of it's Beyonce. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Beyonce is one of the biggest, and probably most vocal invisible fan bases in the world. but that doesn't also in some ways, show for the parts that we just talked about, right? Some of these younger fan bases or these fan bases for other artists, They care very much about streaming. They were a digital native or streaming first, and they're going to continue to optimize for that. whereas, like you said, I think because Beyonce's fan base is so engaged, so passionate, you see the power of the fan base come out really in touring, whether they listen to Beyonce every day for the past year, I think the conversion and amount probably of minutes listened, for a Beyonce to, in terms of needing to then feeling compelled to buy a ticket is much lower than the minutes needed to be listened for a SZA or some of these other artists to then lead to that conversion of buying, buying tickets and so she has a fan base that's gonna support, like regardless way. and like you said, that's not well great. Not in our best interest. Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. Because it's  like she's been making music for over 25 years now as a high profile public recording artist, and in that way, because of the touring and amount, amount times, you got to see her. It's almost like her touring business is closer to Elton John or Billy Joel than it is SZA in that way. Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Beyonce is a touring artist who has the ability to use that fan base to parlay into super financially lucrative deals. But as you mentioned in the beginning of this criteria, unfortunately we'd not be seeing a lot of that.  Dan Runcie: Right. And yeah, if you acquire the rights to Alien Superstar, you gotta split that with 24 different writers, so Denisha Kuhlor: Yes. Another great point. Beyonce's been highly collaborative,and very good about giving people opportunities and also giving them credit. but when it comes to the piece of the pie, which I'm sure she could do based off her ability to get extreme amounts of touring revenue, high leverage, brand partnerships, but when it comes to the part that we can control as asset managers, we'd definitely be paying a high premium, and hoping for the best in someone.  Dan Runcie: Got it. Yep. I agree. All right, so a few rising stars that I had had and considered, but didn't. So, I look at someone like, so it's funny, neither of us picked any country or rock artists, but I look at the popularity of someone like Luke Combs and even though I don't listen to that genre of music or as much, he's dominated the charts. He has continued to just, you know, put out and, you know, someone that's still pretty young, I wanna say, I don't know, he is like late twenties, early thirties, 10 years from now, could we look back  Denisha Kuhlor: and could  Dan Runcie: this person have like, you know, impact level of like your, whether it's your Garth Brooks or Blake Shelton or like one of these other artists that like people just come to time and time again and they put up strong numbers both in streaming and in pure album sales. Someone like that could be interesting. I feel like Morgan Wallen is someone else that fits in this category where he is also just high on the charts  Denisha Kuhlor: and  Dan Runcie: stuff. I mean, obviously his incidents and everything else that he's been notorious for would cast a shadow on that. And I don't know if I'd be willing that necessarily, but he's one that came to mind too. And I think there's other artists too, like whether it's like, you know, Billy Eilish or Olivia Rodrigo it must have been like, okay, I could see them continuing, but we'll see. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I thought like a Rosalia, on my end, for example. the other two that came to mind, and this one I don't know how to feel, but something in me was like considerate. NBA Youngboy, he has a fan base that's passionate right? And is digitally native and they stream and they don't really need, the opinions of the outside world when it comes to music. He was one probably not a category for Verizon stores and more honorable mentions, but I'll mention it. Anyway, Frank Ocean. I feel like there's value there, in Frank Ocean, for sure. And then, Rema, I feel like Rema is the next step, when it comes to music from the continent. The folks at Maven have continued to do an amazing job, and you look at Calm down, it's one of the biggest records in the world. And not only, within Africa or the United States, but also within India, which I thought was just super interesting. So definitely a really, really global artist. He's had records, calm Down, is doing well before this Selena Gomez remix. Dume B has been cited even on present Barack Obama's playlist. So I think he can hold his own, for sure. And feature wise he's very exciting as well. And he's still young enough, but with enough volume where I feel like I could get a competitive rate. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, those are good picks there. let's see, another group I thought of, or not group, but where were they on this list? Let's see. So I did consider some K-pop in the mix. I was like, okay, what would that BTS catalog look like, right? I mean, because I feel like in the same rationale that you had about Bad Bunny and Burna boy, I was considering them as well. I think what made me pause, I was. The fact that at least some of the group members now need to join the military, or at least on their like what does that look like? How does that impact the longevity of their music as opposed to them being able to kind of like ride the waves themselves? So it'll be interesting, right? It's because I think especially now, it's like, I feel like, I don't know, in, earlier days when it was more common for popular figures, whether it's in sports or entertainment to be drafted, there was less pop culture. Things saturating their mind. So when they came back, it's like, oh, okay. I don't know, this might be a bad analogy, but like, oh, Muhammad Ali's back still relevant. Okay. him, you know, he's doing opposed to a way where I hope by the time that BTS is like back in full effect again, that they still can command that same power that they once did. So, Dan Runcie: Yeah. So that dynamic is also why I kept them off. I thought a lot about like boy bands, interestingly enough. So when you look at the Jonas Brothers or even One Direction, and it's almost like the, at their peak like level of fandom, that their audience like gives them, I almost feel like it can't be topped again, for so many reasons, right? Like falls off in a way that you're really excited to embrace maybe when you're younger or them having a younger fan. Interestingly enough, the only person in, it's not a boy band, but that I feel like has captured that audience and has truly, really been able to maintain it, is the artist who did end up picking, which is Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift was able to successfully, like, grow with her fan base from this like teen era. to now we see that the upside is there for her because her fans just have more disposable income that they can spend on something that was so important to them for so long in their. Did you consider Harry Styles? Denisha Kuhlor: I did. but interestingly enough, I just go back and forth so much with, it feels still like a moment. I don't, I would like to see more catalog growth or more catalog volume before fully wanting to, before fully wanting to commit. It's one that I'd have on my radar, but I don't think, I'd be ready to start negotiating just yet. Dan Runcie: That's fair. Even if you got the one direction stuff, his chair of the One Direction stuff. Denisha Kuhlor: Now if I did that, that would make it, that would make it more attractive because it gives a bit of both worlds, the nostalgia from one direction as well as the bet on him as a solo artist but one kind of at least makes, whatever amount you spend, it gives a justification for it being stable to some some extent. Dan Runcie: Yeah, I don't know. That might not have been the best hypothetical to pose at you though, because like when Justin Timberlake sold his catalog, that was just him as a solo artist that had nothing to do with NSYNC or Yeah. like that. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah.  and I think it's harder than we realize. And looking at a sync perspective, we would still need, even if we brought really valuable syncs sync opportunities, with their music, we would still need the permission of so many other people. So the sheer, operational output that would be required to truly maximize it, or at least that part of it, couldn't be taken lightly as well. Especially when you have so many other artists in your catalog in which the sign off to get a sync could be much Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good point. All right, well I know you and I could talk for hours about this topic and could probably draft seven more if we wanted to. I feel like we almost kind of did the, last part of the conversation.  Denisha Kuhlor: We might need to have few more maybe pre-seed edition opportunity fund  edition.  Dan Runcie: Yeah, I feel like there's a few ways we could like set parameters around it where it's like, okay, only, you know, people under 30 years old. And then how does that change the or over 50 or people that longer with us or in a particular genre. I think there's so many others like that we didn't even mention. But yeah. any last words before we wrap this up? Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I mean, if anything, I have a lot of respect for the people that are doing this every day. I know, and you've interviewed some of the amazing firms that have really set out to, to do this work. but this is a fun one and I'm curious to hear everyone else's pick. So definitely tweet Dan and I. Dan Runcie: Yeah. Please respond with the ones you like, the ones you didn't like, and let's, let's keep the conversation going. Denisha, it's pleasure as always. Awesome. Thanks for having me.  Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 30 Mar 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Picking The Most Valuable Music Catalog Portfolio (with Denisha Kuhlor) full Dan Runcie If you had a billion-dollar fund to buy the full rights, masters, and publishing of ANY music artists — who are you acquiring to maximize shareholder value? This question was top of mind for real-life portfolio managers the past three years as music catalog sales boomed. Now my guest on the episode, Denisha Kuhlor, and I are asking ourselves the same hypothetical question. In this episode, we’re doing a mock music rights draft. Akin to the NFL Draft, each of us getting seven picks. Any artists’ catalog, living or dead, is on the table for us to acquire. Our goal is to score the biggest ROI for investors on a 10-year timeline from purely catalog revenue — streaming, syncs, and partnerships, among other sources. Touring or merchandise revenue isn’t factored in, and neither are future catalog releases, only what’s already been released.  As you’ll see on this episode, Denisha and I took very different approaches to our portfolios. One was more “risk on”, while the other was filled with more “blue chips.” Here’s what to expect: [0:01] Draft parameters  [4:51] First-round picks [9:42] Second-round picks [14:21] Third-round picks [18:49] Fourth-round picks [21:55] Fifth-round picks [26:04] Sixth-round picks [29:20] Seventh-round picks [37:33] Honorable mentions  [52:21] Up-and-coming artists Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor Today’s episode was brought to you by feature.fm. Grow your fanbase  and music career with their marketing suite. Get 50% off your first three months by using code: TRAPITAL50 Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT Denisha Kuhlor: We've talked about Burna Boy on the podcast before, so don't necessarily have to go over all of his stats, but I think that in one thing I'm finding with people discovering, music from the continent. Is that when they like the artist or there's things they like about the artist or the genre, they go back and listen, to the past catalog. And so I feel like there's still a lot of untouched ground in terms of people discovering his music and listening to his whole catalog and given how timeless in a lot of ways some of his music feels, I think that we'll have new fans discovering him over and over for a long time and getting to also benefit from the upside of that catalog is great. I'll also say, he's pretty feature light as well. He's increased the amount of features that he's had in some of his more recent albums, but even like him, some of his breakout singles, whether Ye or Last Last, were Independence, or songs that he did independently and didn't have people featuring. So I think in terms of some of the big records, there's solo records, which is exciting and that his catalog has a lot of value for people to discover and wanna to. Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  Dan Runcie: Today's episode is one I am really excited for. This is a music rights draft. We are going to be breaking down the artists that we would most wanna have their music rights for. So today's guest friend of the podcast, Denisha Kuhlor, founder of Stan, her and I are both managers of billion dollar funds and we can acquire the full rights, Masters and publishing to any artist, living or dead. And our job is to maximize value for our investors for the next 10 years. We each get to pick 10 artists and their full rights of music, and we draft them one by one. Denisha, are you ready? How are you feeling? Denisha Kuhlor: I am, I'm super excited for this. like keep racking my head, I think till the last minute with each pick. but yeah, I'm ready to get  Dan Runcie: started. Right. It's funny because we're chatting about this yesterday and I almost wonder like if our chat yesterday like shifts anything, it's like, oh, okay. That's how you're thinking about this. Okay. That's how I'm thinking about this. Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly, in a funny way, I have some more compassion for venture investors because I can see how societal shift or even group think can shift your perspective even if just a bit.  Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's fascinating, and I mean with this, we did try to keep the parameters of it a bit clear because obviously in the real music rights acquisition world, there are many different strategies about how these firms are buying and acquiring these rights. Some of them are sitting and holding on them, but we are putting ourselves in a different bucket. We are assuming that we have the means to maximize this catalogs and this artist's value through multimedia, through sync, through other partnerships, and just the revenue that it naturally generates as sound recordings themselves. And we assume that we're only acquiring what that artist has released up to that point. Of course, what that artist continues to do in the future may shift the perception of the value of what they've done, but we are only looking at what they've done up to this point. So we're saying that just to lay the groundwork, because someone may be like, oh, what about so-and-so and so-and-so may be an artist that blew up in the past five years. They may not have Steve as a catalog, but who knows? Maybe we'll both have a few of those picks. Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Super exciting  Dan Runcie: All right, so we are gonna be so a few things to just keep in mind as well for listeners. So a few of the factors you both considered were expected longevity of the artist music themselves, which is a big piece of this. You're acquiring these rights, you're trying to get a sense for what is the music that people are still going to listen to, right? It's one thing if you dominate the charts, that you have a song that takes off, but there's a decay curve. So we're trying to find those artists that have the value, but have the much less steep decay curve as it goes down year over year. There's also a mix too. There's the stable picks, which a lot of the rights go after, which are attractive, but there's also some higher upside picks or some riskier bets. Where do those fit in? And then we're also taken into account the share of the song recordings that the artists actually have given that certain genres such as hip hop or r and b and pop music specifically, there's a lot more collaboration. There's a lot more hands being shared in that pot. So, how does that line up with another genre where that artist may have a higher percentage of those things? All those things get factored into how we pick this. So I'm ready to get started and I wanna give you the first pick so you can go and then I'll go after that. Denisha Kuhlor: Oh, thank you, so my first pick is Mariah Carey. for a few reasons. One, Mariah Carey has one of the most amazing songs in her collection, with Christmas, right? Like it's just being Christmas time, every Christmas, you know, you're going to get, a spike in revenue. Mariah Carey's also been very notable, about talking about that. She writes a lot of her own music, and I don't think how many people realize how much of a prolific songwriter that she is as well. And with the nature of R and B, much to what you talked about earlier with it being collaborative, Mariah Carey seems to be embraced by a lot of rappers for samples. So while I definitely think it will be pricey based off literally, all I want for Christmas, if anything, I think that it's. It's a bit of a safe, but also Sure. Fire and, and stable. expectation revenue.  Dan Runcie: That was my number two pick. So we're definitely aligned there. It makes perfect sense because even if you, all I want for Christmas is a big piece of the pie, I wanna say 300 million streams per year on Spotify was the stat that I heard, and I forget the exact revenue number that it generates. I don't wanna quote it, but it's huge. Almost 20 number one singles that she's had. So the longevity's there, and as we know we're talking about this a little yesterday, but there's a reason that catalog isn't one that's getting acquired because, A, the people that own it, and I know she may own maybe some of the more recent stuff. I don't know if, Columbia still owns, you know, the stuff from the nineties, especially given the nature of her deal and stuff like that. But I mean, it's up there, it's definitely one of the most valuable ones. So good. Yeah. Good for you on that one. So I'll take my number one pick here and the number one pick. For this, for me, so much of it was thinking about how millennials and this group are the dominant users of streaming. Streaming makes up a bulk of the revenue for these streaming services. And who is the biggest artist for millennials overall? Just you look at the sheer numbers and everything like that, it has to be Taylor Swift. Miss 1989 herself, I will take those albums, especially these rerecorded ones, Taylor's version, because they're Denisha Kuhlor: That's just what I was gonna ask. Dan Runcie: Yeah. I may not get Scooter bronze version, but I'll get Taylor's version and I'll keep that. I think that it's rare to find a star that has as much impact as she does that is as recent in this way, I mean, just the pure demand for this Eras tour. She could have done 10 x times the number of shows and been touring for the next five years in a in stadiums and still had plenty of demand left over. And of course, we're not counting touring revenue in this, but it just goes to show how big everything else is. The fact that midnights broke records, both in streaming and in hard sales, I think I saw 230 million dollars that album generated in its revenue. Of course. That her entire rights will likely be owned, you know, herself just given the Taylor's version of everything. Currently I'm licensed with Republican Universal Music Group. But if in a perfect world you could acquire that, I will take that. She's able to dominate in all of these multiple platforms and if we're really trying to say, okay, 10 years from now, each of her albums is still in the top 50 of the billboard, 200, just from like a rankings perspective. Well, not all of 'em, but a lot of them, and I think it's harder to come by. So yeah, I'll take T Swift. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think it's definitely a solid pick her music evokes so much nostalgia especially as her fans get older, that they'll be listening to it for life, right? Because it's not necessarily attached to a moment or even a recency of today, even though they can appreciate that. it's, yeah, it's music that's the soundtrack to their lives. So, it makes a ton of sense. And she's also another prolific songwriter, so I would assume, from an ownership perspective, it's quite attractive. Dan Runcie: Yeah. Not as attractive as Mariah though, because I feel like Taylor more recently, especially with the more pop albums, there was a lot of Max Martin production and a lot of other big name folks and you know, Kendrick Lamar, guest verses and stuff like that. And Mariah had some of that, but I still feel like she always had like her single, you know what I mean? It's like  Yeah. fantasy was, they had a remix with ODB or they had a honey remix with the lock, but there was still the core Mariah version that was just Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, that's a great point. The breakout has frequently remained just her. Yeah.  Dan Runcie: so we'll see. But yeah, who's your second pick? Denisha Kuhlor: So my second pick, I thought a lot too about, like world music as we say, or just music that's global. much to your point as well around streaming. I kind of think that it's exciting to pick, an artist that can dominate globally that's, not necessarily a pop artist. And so for that, I went back and forth. Probably two of the biggest artists. but landed on Bad Bunny, Bad Bunny to me is one just an amazing and exciting artist. He also has a great amount of volume, but much to the point we just made about Mariah Carey's, Taylor Swifts, I think he's really optimized a lot of his catalog, for music that he makes and that music that he solely makes. Additionally, and I know we're not counting touring, but the sheer amount of numbers he's done touring, I think has not only earned him new fans, but earned him kind of the same type of fan appetite that Taylor Swift has in which the music will evoke a certain nostalgia, whether they saw him perform it on top of a gas station or when he was driving through the Bronx, that leads them to want to continue to listen to this music for the rest of their lives, which hopefully will be financially lucrative. Dan Runcie: He was on my list as well. You can't ignore just the huge, massive success of this last album, UN Varano Centi. We saw that album dominate week after week after week, and it, the songs are still on Spotify's Top 50 and they're still having traction there. And in an era where there's just so much more music, if you can get a song like that that comes out in 2022 that's still coming out or just an album, it's rare and I know we talk a lot about how monoculture itself is just harder to come by from a artist that is in the US or UK just because those markets are so much more saturated. But the closest we get to anyone reaching Beatlemania is someone like Bad Bunny. So that's a great. Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly, exactly. I also think a lot both, Drake's wrapped about Bad Bunny numbers and Kanye's reference Bad Bunny's, success. And so I feel like even if his peers in the industry are kind of in some ways either looking at him aspirationally or like he's one that could potentially, hit my success, is also a great indicator. Dan Runcie: All right, so the next pick I have here is, you mentioned him a second ago, the streaming king himself, 70 million streams. Drake, it's hard to think about the streaming era and not think about him. Just the massive hits that he's had and every time that he releases an album, it still creates this moment that few have the ability to be able to reach moving forward. I know Birdman will never give up those rights, and Young Money extensively will never give up those rights, but if I had the choice, I would take it. I think the knock against Drake potentially though I will acknowledge is that one. Just the high number of features and samples with all that, there's a high, there's a less likelihood that he may own all or just have a higher percentage of the revenue coming in for this stuff. But just the sheer volume of whether it's the mixtapes, the playlist, the little two packs that he puts out, the albums, especially some of the ones from like, especially the cash money albums, honestly, from, when was that? So I guess you had 2010, it was official first album, but you had so far gone oh nine and then everything up to Scorpion. Yeah, those are the biggest albums of the last decade. So I'll take Drake Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. super solid pick. As someone who has seen Drake in concert 10 times, there's a few things recently. Yeah. 10 times.  Yeah. So a few things that stuck out to me with Trigg specifically, The Serious Show. So the serious show was a lot of like deep cuts or songs that he hasn't recently performed on some of his tours. And you could just see that fans loved it, right? A lot of people wanted access to tickets and really loved the music. And then, lastly in part of, in going to these tours, there were so many times that I saw, that he would like go off of stage and to keep the crowd like engaged. They would do a whole set of his music that he wasn't going to perform, and the crowd literally went just as crazy as if he was on, if he was on stage so much to just like the emotional factor that his catalog has. I feel like Drake has provided the music of a generation. And so, regardless volume wise, they'll be continuing to listen for a long time. Dan Runcie: Who's your number two? Denisha Kuhlor: So next I'm going with Burna Boy. one, we've talked about Burna Boy on the podcast before, so don't necessarily have to go over all of his stats, but I think that in one thing I'm finding with people discovering, music from the continent. Is that when they like the artist or there's things they like about the artist or the genre, they go back and listen, to the past catalog. And so I feel like there's still a lot of untouched ground in terms of people discovering his music and listening to his whole catalog and given how timeless in a lot of ways some of his music feels, I think that we'll have new fans discovering him over and over for a long time and getting to also benefit from the upside of that catalog is great. I'll also say, he's pretty feature light as well. He's increased the amount of features that he's had in some of his more recent albums, but even like him, some of his breakout singles, whether Ye or Last Last, were Independence, or songs that he did independently and didn't have people featuring. So I think in terms of some of the big records, there's solo records, which is exciting and that his catalog has a lot of value for people to discover and wanna to.  Dan Runcie: Yeah, he was on the list as well, and I think the attractive thing with him is similar to the bad Bunny perspective where almost more so because if you are one of the signature artists that is on this entire continent, well, I think for him, obviously more West Africa, but if you're one of the signature artists that's on this entire continent, you have the closer thing to that Beattlemania effect. And as more people there have access to streaming as more of that just grows and develops, you're going to get that curve too that just grows naturally with what's already there. And you can't undersell that. And I think given an artist like that too, there's probably huge sync opportunities as multimedia and entertainment starts to grow from that, from, from those parts of the worlds too. So there's a lot of value there. Yeah. Denisha Kuhlor: exactly.  Who do you  have  Dan Runcie: pick, this is a pick with the mind and not necessarily with the heart, but I am a, in the role of a asset manager or not the role of a fan. And my pick here is Eminem and my pick for Eminem, and the reason I pick him is because his music is still some of the most streamed music across the board. And his Curtains Call album was the bestselling rap album in the UK in 2022. His greatest hits album from 2005 was the best selling rap album 17 years later. And I remember seeing that stat and I was just like, wow. And then you just think about the nature of his music. And even though he's someone that I feel, if you're someone that lives in the Twitter circles that you and I live in, Eminem is someone that I think has largely fallen out of popular discourse. And people do look at him a bit more, distinctly in a way that they did in 20 years ago. But if you don't live in those circles, which the majority of people don't, they still listen to his music and still revere him. And just on a sheer number perspective, there's probably more people that listen to hip hop that have an artist like Eminem and their top three and they're top two and not two. And you look at some of the numbers as well for songs like Till I Collapse and Lose Yourself, that just get played over and over for people working out and all of these things. Those songs have a timelessness to them. I mean, on stats, he was the bestselling like recorded artist of the two thousands. He was up there for the 2010s. He still tours massively, and even though a lot of his albums that probably generate the most revenue are songs that I'm no longer listening to, I can acknowledge that this has huge value. And as an asset manager, as a fund manager, I would do quite well with that, with his rights. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. No, I don't know if that's where I would have went, but after hearing your explanation, it makes a ton of sense. Eminem fans are, independent in the sense that they're fans regardless of whether he's the top of a pop culture, relevancy or not. yeah, I think, that's really, really interesting. And the Stan's side, he literally pioneered the word we all use today, so I think in some ways too, people forget just, how impactful culturally he's been. so yeah, that makes a  Dan Runcie: Nice. All right. who's your. Denisha Kuhlor: So for my next one, I kind of wanted to go in a direction of some newer artists that are still proving themselves out of it, but I think have a lot of potential. but keeping in mind to what they've done so far, I wanna go with Lizzo. I. think of Lizzo, you know, a lot of us were actually introduced, to her in because of a sync, in one of the, in a movie on Netflix. I'm blanking on the name of the movie, but that sync actually introduced me, to her. I think that Lizzo's music is just like the perfect type of music for a movie trailer, in the sense of some of her upbeat, more like pop, pop records. It's like the perfect songs to usher in like a romcom. So from a sing perspective, I think it has a lot of potential. She's also known as, pretty talented on the songwriting side, so I think the ownership would be, I think the ownership would be attractive. and in her last tours, she's done pretty well while also there were smaller venues, the fan base and her having an engaged fan base is definitely there as well. Obviously and from an asset manager perspective, definitely wouldn't be looking to pick it up. But the numbers I've picked up, some of my earlier bets, but I think it would be a fun bet to have and see how it does in the future. Dan Runcie: It's funny because she's someone that I think she has a very high diehard fan to fan ratio, if that makes sense. And I say that because she's someone who. Does quite well. She sells out arenas and she does multiple shows in some cities, in arenas, in an era where it's very hard to get artists that are topping the charts with their streaming to sell out the same venues. The knock against her though is that she doesn't stream necessarily as well. Like she hasn't had an album that's like top the charts. I don't think she's had, you know, a 100K in the first week necessarily. But those fans do show up. so there's something to be said there. I think the other thing too, when you're mentioning the sync, I was thinking about, you know, that car, I think it's Carnival Cruise, that commercial, and it has that song that's like Hands to the Sky. Show me that your mind, like, I didn't even realize that was a Lizzo song until I just looked it up because it was stuck in my head and I'm like, oh, that's a Lizzo song from like 2016, like Pret Truth. So I think you're right with the sync piece of it. I mean, a song like Truth Hurts Itself, juice, literally anything from whether it's special or the album before this, I think that there is strong potential there. So I think Lizzo is definitely a good multimedia play. Assuming like we are in this role, you have the ability to maximize the asset. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, exactly, exactly. It definitely comes down to maximization of the asset on her part, and in a way. I don't see streaming continuing to go up. I think her engage fans like her, they listen to her, and they keep it at, and they keep it at that. So without kind of very targeted, like a targeted approach to maximizing her syncs, the asset becomes less attractive. Dan Runcie: So the next pick, and this is a bit strategic because I wanna take this artist before you take them, is SZA and. picking SZA because she obviously doesn't have a huge catalog. We're talking two studio albums really, that have came out. But if I could get those studio albums for a good price, I'm getting an album in control that is literally stayed on the charts for five years. People are listening, streaming and buying the hell out of that thing, and it hasn't really stopped. And this album is setting all these records and every time you see what the 10, 11 weeks that SSA's SOS has been at the top of the charts, that's in the territory with like Adele, Beyonce and all these other artists because first here's breaking records for female R and B artists then is just, you know, female artists. Now it's artists in general, like how many people are at those levels. So sure. I don't think I'm necessarily gonna have to pay Taylor Swift, Drake or Eminem numbers to get SZA rights, but this is a hits game, and if I can get two of her hits, certified hits albums, that could be worth more than 10 of someone else's mediocre ones. Denisha Kuhlor: I completely agree. SZA is it makes so much sense. It makes so much sense. I'd also say what's so exciting about CSA when you think about it is two studio albums and being able to maintain that relevancy and the sheer amount of time that those albums have lived, is so exciting and you can continue to maximize those two albums even for years to come. Because for everyone, it still feels very relevant. Dan Runcie: All right. Who's your, you've picked five, right? Okay, so last two picks. who's your sixth pick? Denisha Kuhlor: Yes. So I'm gonna keep the S theme here with SZA. and this one was somewhat a big streaming play. but Summer Walker, summer Walker was one that initially when I first made this list, didn't come to mind to be honest. But as I thought about it, and I will probably mention this more in some of my honorable mentions, but I was going for Usher, and I thought about the record that they had together and thought about a lot of the records that Summer Walker has broken.  and shout out to the folks that love Renaissance, I think that people don't even realize or truly understand how big of an artist she's been, from a streaming perspective. she's had some really impressive numbers when she releases the album, she's done great numbers. and People continue to listen to her. I also think, you know, she's toyed around with retiring as well as not doing, as well as not doing tours, creating less opportunities for fans to be able to interact with her, which, fortunately or unfortunately leads them back to her music as that's one of the only sources of ways that they can interact with her. So, I don't know if I see as much sync potential with an artist like her as I would maybe a Lizzo, but I think she can continue to generate solid, solid streaming numbers, for years, for years.  Dan Runcie: a good pick. It's funny, she's someone that's not on my list, but when you mentioned her I was like, I can't believe I'd even think of the think of her. But you're absolutely right. She has, especially from a streaming perspective, she has numbers that rival some of the artists that we mentioned before when it comes to streaming and on average, streaming is making up 70 to 80% often of the revenue that comes in from these music rights. So, it makes sense to be able to have that. And I think that just given how much she's been able to speak to an audience that doesn't really have as many people speaking directly to them as well in this way of, okay, who is making music for black women, who is making like doing that? And I think when you think about it that way, that list does become slim. Especially when we're talking about artists at this level, obviously, you know, touring and some of the more personal things of just like being out there that isn't her style, that isn't her vibe or her personality necessarily. But we don't necessarily need that and I think that there's clearly value in over it, still over it. And, you know, the small features and things that she's done here and there since then.  Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah.  Dan Runcie: All right. So mine, I have two picks left. this is where it does get tough because, looking through some of these names and there's some ones that I like and, okay, so I am going to take Bruno Mars and I'm gonna take Mars because the fact that he has music that I think honestly can transcend in terms of the versatility of the music. Songs like 24K Magic or Uptown Funk, or. Denisha Kuhlor: Very intergenerational as well.  Dan Runcie: Yeah. You hear, could hear it in the supermarket, you could hear it being out, like you could hear it in syncs or different types of things, even the more recent stuff with Silk Sonic and getting his chair of that with with Anderson .Paak there, I think there's a huge potential there. I can't speak as much to the hard numbers, but I do think that the multimedia opportunities are there. He's a pit maker and I think it would be valuable to have his stuff in there. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so from kind of a multimedia or even multidisciplinary perspective, my next one is Pharrell. Pharrell's been a part of a lot of really big records, records that feel intergenerational. I would say, and I don't know the numbers of this. I would say his streaming probably isn't in the highest percentile, but it's also not in the lowest percentile. Like it's somewhere probably in the media, in the middle, given all the records he's been a part of. That makes it kind just a steady asset and also transcends multiple decades in a way that if something does come back in style, You can benefit from that upside. He also has a few records, I think about a record like Happy, that sync wise I think will continue to be used for years and years to come, in a host of ways. So Pharrell is one that could be a really safe bet or maybe a really unsafe bet, just dependent on how, things go. But I think there's enough factors, in, which he falls kind of nicely in to justify the bet. But I will say I don't think it will be, I don't think it will be cheap  but I do think it can have a big upside. Dan Runcie: The upside smart thing about that pick, he's someone else I didn't think of, but I think it was a really good pick because you get the artist Pharrell and you get the producer Pharrell, so you get everything from, I forget that Sta but when was it? In 2002 or 2003, the Neptunes were responsible for 43% of the music that was on top 40 radio that was on, you know, pop So you get all those songs and then you get any of the stuff you did with NERD, you get any of like the Child Rebel Soldier stuff. I mean it makes a lot of sense. And then even songs like, Get Lucky was huge as well. I know that there's been a bunch of controversy around blurred lines, but I'm still sure that the revenue from that song continues to be massive. So I think that's a smart pick. Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. And I think in the future we'll see kind of that doubling, right? artists like a Pharrell will continue to be super valuable when it comes to being able to capture the peak of their rights because they just have them. Dan Runcie: Definitely, definitely. so then with the last pick, it's funny, I hesitated with this one a bit, but I'm gonna go ahead and pick it anyway. It's probably the catalog or the rights that would go for the most money if anyone's was on the table at all right now. And it's Michael Jackson and I'm going to take his, because the fact that Thriller is now over 40 years old and I think that the baseline for streams from that song and streams from everything else is quite high. It is strong and there's value there. This is another one where I think I'm separating a bit of the personal versus the, you know, actual like business asset aspect of it, because I do think that the multimedia aspect of it. Yeah. You know, that would be difficult, and even me as an asset manager would probably be finding ways to create multimedia opportunities for that asset continuing forward. But on the other hand, there's still Broadway musicals, there's still Vegas intimate shows that they are creating off of this person's music. I think Variety had released that report a couple of months ago that said that they were in talks of a 900 million sale for half of the rights. I forget like exactly what the terms would be and including a few things, but I felt like that was too big not to ignore from an asset management perspective. So it would be the Michael Jackson rights for the final pick. Denisha Kuhlor: Wow. That's a really strong, a really strong final pick and makes my last pick even harder.  Dan Runcie: You had seven though, right?  Denisha Kuhlor: Yes, I did. I did. My seventh one is just a different caliber Dan Runcie: Wait, wait. You, oh, oh, oh. With Pharrell you mean? Denisha Kuhlor: no, no, no, no. So my seventh one actually is,  Dan Runcie: Wait, wait. Did we miss one? Hold on. Let me just run through it real quick. You had Mariah, Bad Bunny, Burna Boy, Lizzo, Summer Walker, Pharrell  Denisha Kuhlor: Yes Dan Runcie: Oh, oh. We both have one more. Oh, okay. I missed up. Okay. You're right, you're right. Yeah. okay.  All one? Denisha Kuhlor: Yes. So my last pick is DMX. One, I think in a lot of ways DMX has a very unique style of music. It has a very unique style of rap. Talking to a lot of, or not talking to, but I guess watching their interviews. A lot of rappers are very inspired by DMX and he still gets credited, for, you know, rap styles or little lines that, artists borrow or throw in their music and he has a bit of a high sample potential. I think we'll see some of his music sampled more and oddly enough, whether it's like a movie, like a Creed or something like that, this sheer like BPM of some of his music, is definitely attractive from like a sync perspective. For, upbeat movies that wanna like, leverage a rap song or leverage hip hop. and I also think, and he's done very well in getting quite a few syncs when it comes to video games, I'm thinking about sings so often this podcast from a movie perspective, but gaming syncs are huge as well. and DMX's music is quite huge in the gaming community. So if anything, from an, optimizing the asset perspective, I would focus on optimizing his syncs for gaming, because of the BPM of his music. And I think I would get it at a favorable rate. Dan Runcie: Yeah, I couldn't imagine there might be some high ROI potential there, I would say and just given how dominant that run was, and I think some people forget. Yeah. Each of those first albums was just like, you know, topping the charts and everything. Especially from like 98 to 03'. it was, on, I mean, there were other rappers who may have had like, you know, bigger commercial success at that time from whether it was someone like Eminem or some others. But in terms of like relevance, that still matters to a lot of people and how that can continue. X is up there. Do you think we'll see an X movie at some point? Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I hope we do. and that's how I reference, how a lot of rappers like, feel about him because musicians appreciating another artist are probably our most likely way. You see obviously 50 cent, 50 cent in TV and film production, Drake with Euphoria, even Childish Gambino, right? So him being revered by other artists I think puts him on the best path for us to see that. which also would be  Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a good pick. So I think so. I actually, but now my seventh pick, because I'm like re-looking at these. I had Taylor, Drake, Eminem, SZA, Bruno Mars, Michael, and then now the seventh pick. this is tough, but, I'm gonna take the Weeknd and I'm gonna take him because  Denisha Kuhlor: Oh, amazing.  Dan Runcie: I think it's really hard to have a song that's been released like in the pandemic era of music that still tops the charts, but everything from After Hours is still getting so much radio play. He just did a remix with Ariana Grande, Die For You, a song that came out now, what, seven years ago. And that song had topped the charts. He has this ability to just, I think it's him and a handful of other artists that just have this ability to make music that can continue to like pierce through. I mean, we didn't get as much of that from Don FM but I think even he himself, like that album didn't get as much, you know, focus the same way that everything from After Hours did. And  he has this way of just kind of capturing, a generation just with like the feel and the vibe, I think sync potential, especially as he's gonna be in more movies now himself and what that could look like. So, yeah definitely. Denisha Kuhlor: That's super strong. He makes hits. Dan Runcie: Another pop artist, so I know, you know, there's a bunch of Max Martin and other producers that'll get their share, but I'll take his, so, Yeah. No, super. Right. So yeah, so let's just round out the lists here. and then let's share. So with the first pick, and then in order you took Mariah Carey, then Bad Bunny, then Burna Boy, then Lizzo, Summer Walker, then Pharrell Williams and DMX. And then I took Taylor Swift, Drake, Eminem, SZA, Bruno Mars, Michael Jackson, and the Weeknd. So, yeah. How are you feeling about your picks? Did you feel like you got the artist that you wanted? Do you feel like you, you know, got the ones that you wanted to like, lighten everything up? Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I do. I think that some of those artists are bets that would hopefully, positively surprise me. but there's enough artists, within those picks that I know revenue will be generated and will have a positive upside regardless. If anything, we can continue to crown on Mariah Carey and some of Pharrell's records and even just the dominance Bad Bunny continues to have for a very long time while also seeing, how dominant, for decades to come an artist like a Summer Walker. Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think if we were to look at these catalogs like, or look at both of our portfolios, I think you would have like the Vanguard Growth Fund and I would have like the Vanguard Blue Chip Fund if that makes sense. Right? Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly, exactly.  Dan Runcie: You know, you may generate some higher returns, but with that, you know, there's more risk that comes with it as well. but yeah, mine, think it's probably assumed that you would generate higher returns because I feel like SZA's probably the, not even like, oh, it's probably the pick of mine that is the least blue chip relative to the rest of them. And yeah. enough, even someone like Bruno Mars is probably more skewed towards less of that certified pick on mine just because of how much of a more, strong base the other artists do have. Denisha Kuhlor: Totally. If I had to, compare thinking about venture, I would say you definitely took like a series C, series D, growth fund, with a few, maybe more Series A, like a series A pick. I think maybe this is to my roots, I took more of a series B potentially with a good opportunity fund and skewed heavily ine and seed, with a few of those artists as well.  Dan Runcie: No, that makes sense. That makes sense. What were some of your honorable mentions? Yeah, maybe you can name like three, maybe first I wanna do honorable mentions, and then second, I wanna talk about some rising folks. Maybe some people that you would've picked, but maybe you didn't pick, because it's like, no, it's too early. It's too early, right? But yeah, Denisha Kuhlor: let yeah, no,  Dan Runcie: with the honorable mentions like who are one or two that you had considered? Denisha Kuhlor: For sure. So the biggest honorable mention for me is  Usher,  Dan Runcie: yep. He  Denisha Kuhlor: um  Dan Runcie: mine too. Denisha Kuhlor: usher,  the Vegas residency, the, tiny desk Usher's been having a phenomenal few last years. and I think people don't even realize the residency really brought it back for a lot of people. The breadth of his catalog's so talented, his music is intergenerational or continues to transcend generations. Usher was one that I thought a lot about. I was kind of going back and forth between Usher and Pharrell, and I picked Pharrell because of the exposure to so many other artists that he has. but Usher was a really, really big one. Dan Runcie: Yeah, he was on my list too, because I think similarly, this Vegas residency has created a moment and it's hard to be able to do that. I can't speak to, I haven't looked at his stream numbers and I mean, I really even like back when I feel like Usher's music was at like the top of pop culture and stuff. I don't, I wasn't tracking, oh, how high Confessions on the Billboard 200. That's just not something that I thought or cared about time, but I think that he's won. He was on my list as well. Someone else that was on my list too was, Kendrick Lamar was on my list too, because good kid, m.A.A.d city's been on the charts for a decade plus. People are still listening to that, and that's higher charts now than what the last album is. Mr. Morale, the big step was, I know that album was more controversial but the fact that Damn and, good kid, m.A.A.d city are still on the charts. You have still Pimp A Butterfly. You never know what type of multimedia opportunities that can turn into. I think if you're talking at least in my opinion, like pure like bar for bar, like the best like rapper lyricist of the past decade plus, I think it is him and there's something to be said for what value have. So yeah, he was who I was going back and forth with him and the Weeknd, for that seventh pick. But yeah, he was my honor, audible mention. Denisha Kuhlor: Kendrick pick is strong. my rap honorable mention is actually J. Cole  Dan Runcie: Yep. I had him on the list.  Denisha Kuhlor: As someone that gets mentioned in, a lot of the conversations with Kendrick and I think for Cole, a few reasons. one, the whispers of retiring are looming and we know that he has the desire to retire sometime in the near future. So I think people will cherish the records that he has even more, the fan base of the Dreamville built is super engaged. super active, and I think we'll be that way for a long time to come. And J. Cole, you know, picked up a lot of good features when he was coming up. Maybe it's the Rock Nation effect or whatever, but he has some amazing features, whether it's, party with Beyonce or just like, he has some really great features that he's gotten as well.  So yeah, that's one I would be super excited to have. Dan Runcie: Every time I look at hits, daily double stats, just seeing who's trending. No role models is always on that chart somewhere. and it's now been, eight and a half, nine years since that song came out. So it's a hits game. If I can get one of the biggest rap songs of the decade and one of the more popular rap albums of the decade too, then you take that obviously so many other hits as you mentioned Party, and a lot of the other ones that he's then. But that song, I think itself is worth at least bringing the conversation up. A few people that I didn't mention, but I'm curious if they came up for you. We can just keep these kind of rapid fire before we get to the Rising But did you consider Ed Sheeran? Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I did, I thought a lot about like having UK representation, . and he came up for me there. He's also done a lot of like features with, African artists, whether it's Stormzy, Burna Boy, but I ultimately shied away from him. I don't even know if I have the right things to point to it, but something didn't feel right. Dan Runcie: Okay. He was on the list I had as well. I just preferred the other ones more. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Like it's not even fully like quantitative, like no. Yeah, It just, yeah, like he was compelling, but not compelling enough to make you wanna get excited.  Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's like I know that Divide was a huge album. I know that Shape of You is probably one of the biggest hits of the past 15 years if we're going back that far. But yeah, you know, it's just kind of tough cuts. I mean, yeah, I'm sure that al that catalog will probably generate more revenue overall, maybe then like scissors, like someone that I took. But I that Ed Sheeran's catalog isn't gonna come at, you know, a cheap cost, but who knows? So he's at least someone I thought about. Did you consider, this is going back a little bit further, but did you consider Celine Dion? Denisha Kuhlor: Oh, no, I didn't. But Celine Deion makes so much sense for so many reasons, but I didn't, you know, I'm thinking about my picks, probably Mariah Carey and DMX were as far back as went and that's because I was thinking about the streaming optimization as well, with the number you said. And IFPI's latest report streaming is just taking so much of the conversation. I would probably go for a lookalike audience to Celine Dion, so maybe more like an Adele, which also wouldn't come cheap. but audience that is a little more, well, didn't I take Adele? I think that Adele almost, in a way like Ed Sheeran, for all the right reasons. It's like, no, I wouldn't get pushback if I was thinking about my LPs comment saying, I don't get pushback in any way for picking Adele, but in a lot of ways Adele feels safe. And while her music is easily recognizable and does well, her type of music in a lot of ways, doesn't really feel like something that you play and stream over and over almost in the way that Taylor Swift's music does. and so while ballads are great, and I think people really, really love them from a replay value on streaming, I just didn't get as excited as I wanted to. Dan Runcie: I think you're right because I think that the reason that I didn't take her is because I thought that it could have easily been a catalog and rights that you would overpay for because of the name and everything that she's done. But when you look at the pure streaming numbers, yeah, I know that Easy on me had like broken records at the time, but still those records I believe got broken like a week later or a month later by BTS or whoever else, it was Bad Bunny and since then Taylor Swift, right? So yeah, I questioned the replay value and I do think that because, yeah, I thought that it would've been high compared to some of these other artists. Going back to the Celine point, I think you were right, because I also shifted a bit just thinking about how big the streaming error is and how that generates so much cattle revenue for this. And one of the big thesis that I've had overall with music rights sales and acquisition is that a lot of these deals have overvalued the artists from the seventies and eighties and undervalued the from the nineties and two thousands. Because if you thinking about the dominant we're streaming as and who are the dominant generation of those consumers, as great as you know, Celine and others were, the songs that are most likely to resonate are like Taylor Swift and Drake, you know, are gonna be more relevant to this generation than Madonna or Celine Dion or some of the others. And I did consider. Madonna as well, just thinking about it. I know this next tour she's gonna do on is gonna be big, but I held back then for the same Celine thing. It's like, yeah, maybe if this was 20 years ago when we were doing this draft in 2003, then maybe I would've taken Celine Dion or Madonna but I think that decay curve is definitely, you know, flattened a bit where maybe the upside, not just the upside potential, but the consistency just may not be, or not the consistency. Obviously it's consistent, but it just didn't seem to valuable as some of these other picks. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. No, I agree. And I think, you know, in like working the music or working the records, so you can optimize your catalog. You have to kind of think about who's making the decisions now or who's coming into power now. and some of those executives are younger. and so, thinking about how they might place value, even though they're familiar, obviously with the brand and the artists, on a premium for that music, I think it would be a much longer conversation much to what you said, which is probably why some of these artists were willing to sell, and kind of let the asset manager deal with the headache of justifying the value while they've extracted the value from the asset manager who's excited to go out and  Dan Runcie: Yeah. Did you consider Beyonce? Denisha Kuhlor: I did consider Beyonce. I just, it's expensive very, very, very expensive. it would be, I think, you know, Beyonce is an interesting one. She's actually one of my favorites in the sense that I think uses her catalog really well with all kind of the moments that she's had, whether it's the Super Bowl or, her Coachella performance. She reworks her music in a way that continues to feel new. Like as an artist, almost to the point of where I also had trepidation with Adele, how Adele navigates her artistry. while I respect, and obviously we want artists that set boundaries. I don't know if it's in my best interest as an artist, right? She kind of drops her music and waits long stretches before going back her choice to cancel her tour and do a Las Vegas residency, means there'll be a lot of places untouched unless she decides to, venture out. Whereas someone like Beyonce is exciting because her music is always being brought back, right? I did consider, interestingly enough, Destiny's child, because I feel like I, it would get the upside of every time a Beyonce performs or has a big, moment on the world stage, at a price point. And maybe Beyonce's part wouldn't be up for grabs, but other people's would at a price point that would be attractive. Dan Runcie: The other thing about Beyonce too is that she's kind of like Lizzo, but magnified in this sense that very high touring to streaming output, if that makes sense. But I don't get to collect tour revenue. I'm collecting the music rights and a lot of the songs from Renaissance. So if you compare the streaming of SZA's SOS to Beyonce's Renaissance, like it isn't even close. SZA's is much more popular there and the same way that I'm seeing good kid, m.A.A.d city and 2014 Forest Hill drives and Eminem's Greatest hits albums like still at the top of that charts. I'm not seeing the same thing for Lemonade or Beyonce in a way that's almost surprising because you feel like, okay, the generational impact, those records are huge. Everyone revered them, but this is a game and they just aren't at that And I know you'd have to pay a premium because of it's Beyonce. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Beyonce is one of the biggest, and probably most vocal invisible fan bases in the world. but that doesn't also in some ways, show for the parts that we just talked about, right? Some of these younger fan bases or these fan bases for other artists, They care very much about streaming. They were a digital native or streaming first, and they're going to continue to optimize for that. whereas, like you said, I think because Beyonce's fan base is so engaged, so passionate, you see the power of the fan base come out really in touring, whether they listen to Beyonce every day for the past year, I think the conversion and amount probably of minutes listened, for a Beyonce to, in terms of needing to then feeling compelled to buy a ticket is much lower than the minutes needed to be listened for a SZA or some of these other artists to then lead to that conversion of buying, buying tickets and so she has a fan base that's gonna support, like regardless way. and like you said, that's not well great. Not in our best interest. Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. Because it's  like she's been making music for over 25 years now as a high profile public recording artist, and in that way, because of the touring and amount, amount times, you got to see her. It's almost like her touring business is closer to Elton John or Billy Joel than it is SZA in that way. Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Beyonce is a touring artist who has the ability to use that fan base to parlay into super financially lucrative deals. But as you mentioned in the beginning of this criteria, unfortunately we'd not be seeing a lot of that.  Dan Runcie: Right. And yeah, if you acquire the rights to Alien Superstar, you gotta split that with 24 different writers, so Denisha Kuhlor: Yes. Another great point. Beyonce's been highly collaborative,and very good about giving people opportunities and also giving them credit. but when it comes to the piece of the pie, which I'm sure she could do based off her ability to get extreme amounts of touring revenue, high leverage, brand partnerships, but when it comes to the part that we can control as asset managers, we'd definitely be paying a high premium, and hoping for the best in someone.  Dan Runcie: Got it. Yep. I agree. All right, so a few rising stars that I had had and considered, but didn't. So, I look at someone like, so it's funny, neither of us picked any country or rock artists, but I look at the popularity of someone like Luke Combs and even though I don't listen to that genre of music or as much, he's dominated the charts. He has continued to just, you know, put out and, you know, someone that's still pretty young, I wanna say, I don't know, he is like late twenties, early thirties, 10 years from now, could we look back  Denisha Kuhlor: and could  Dan Runcie: this person have like, you know, impact level of like your, whether it's your Garth Brooks or Blake Shelton or like one of these other artists that like people just come to time and time again and they put up strong numbers both in streaming and in pure album sales. Someone like that could be interesting. I feel like Morgan Wallen is someone else that fits in this category where he is also just high on the charts  Denisha Kuhlor: and  Dan Runcie: stuff. I mean, obviously his incidents and everything else that he's been notorious for would cast a shadow on that. And I don't know if I'd be willing that necessarily, but he's one that came to mind too. And I think there's other artists too, like whether it's like, you know, Billy Eilish or Olivia Rodrigo it must have been like, okay, I could see them continuing, but we'll see. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I thought like a Rosalia, on my end, for example. the other two that came to mind, and this one I don't know how to feel, but something in me was like considerate. NBA Youngboy, he has a fan base that's passionate right? And is digitally native and they stream and they don't really need, the opinions of the outside world when it comes to music. He was one probably not a category for Verizon stores and more honorable mentions, but I'll mention it. Anyway, Frank Ocean. I feel like there's value there, in Frank Ocean, for sure. And then, Rema, I feel like Rema is the next step, when it comes to music from the continent. The folks at Maven have continued to do an amazing job, and you look at Calm down, it's one of the biggest records in the world. And not only, within Africa or the United States, but also within India, which I thought was just super interesting. So definitely a really, really global artist. He's had records, calm Down, is doing well before this Selena Gomez remix. Dume B has been cited even on present Barack Obama's playlist. So I think he can hold his own, for sure. And feature wise he's very exciting as well. And he's still young enough, but with enough volume where I feel like I could get a competitive rate. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, those are good picks there. let's see, another group I thought of, or not group, but where were they on this list? Let's see. So I did consider some K-pop in the mix. I was like, okay, what would that BTS catalog look like, right? I mean, because I feel like in the same rationale that you had about Bad Bunny and Burna boy, I was considering them as well. I think what made me pause, I was. The fact that at least some of the group members now need to join the military, or at least on their like what does that look like? How does that impact the longevity of their music as opposed to them being able to kind of like ride the waves themselves? So it'll be interesting, right? It's because I think especially now, it's like, I feel like, I don't know, in, earlier days when it was more common for popular figures, whether it's in sports or entertainment to be drafted, there was less pop culture. Things saturating their mind. So when they came back, it's like, oh, okay. I don't know, this might be a bad analogy, but like, oh, Muhammad Ali's back still relevant. Okay. him, you know, he's doing opposed to a way where I hope by the time that BTS is like back in full effect again, that they still can command that same power that they once did. So, Dan Runcie: Yeah. So that dynamic is also why I kept them off. I thought a lot about like boy bands, interestingly enough. So when you look at the Jonas Brothers or even One Direction, and it's almost like the, at their peak like level of fandom, that their audience like gives them, I almost feel like it can't be topped again, for so many reasons, right? Like falls off in a way that you're really excited to embrace maybe when you're younger or them having a younger fan. Interestingly enough, the only person in, it's not a boy band, but that I feel like has captured that audience and has truly, really been able to maintain it, is the artist who did end up picking, which is Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift was able to successfully, like, grow with her fan base from this like teen era. to now we see that the upside is there for her because her fans just have more disposable income that they can spend on something that was so important to them for so long in their. Did you consider Harry Styles? Denisha Kuhlor: I did. but interestingly enough, I just go back and forth so much with, it feels still like a moment. I don't, I would like to see more catalog growth or more catalog volume before fully wanting to, before fully wanting to commit. It's one that I'd have on my radar, but I don't think, I'd be ready to start negotiating just yet. Dan Runcie: That's fair. Even if you got the one direction stuff, his chair of the One Direction stuff. Denisha Kuhlor: Now if I did that, that would make it, that would make it more attractive because it gives a bit of both worlds, the nostalgia from one direction as well as the bet on him as a solo artist but one kind of at least makes, whatever amount you spend, it gives a justification for it being stable to some some extent. Dan Runcie: Yeah, I don't know. That might not have been the best hypothetical to pose at you though, because like when Justin Timberlake sold his catalog, that was just him as a solo artist that had nothing to do with NSYNC or Yeah. like that. Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah.  and I think it's harder than we realize. And looking at a sync perspective, we would still need, even if we brought really valuable syncs sync opportunities, with their music, we would still need the permission of so many other people. So the sheer, operational output that would be required to truly maximize it, or at least that part of it, couldn't be taken lightly as well. Especially when you have so many other artists in your catalog in which the sign off to get a sync could be much Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good point. All right, well I know you and I could talk for hours about this topic and could probably draft seven more if we wanted to. I feel like we almost kind of did the, last part of the conversation.  Denisha Kuhlor: We might need to have few more maybe pre-seed edition opportunity fund  edition.  Dan Runcie: Yeah, I feel like there's a few ways we could like set parameters around it where it's like, okay, only, you know, people under 30 years old. And then how does that change the or over 50 or people that longer with us or in a particular genre. I think there's so many others like that we didn't even mention. But yeah. any last words before we wrap this up? Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I mean, if anything, I have a lot of respect for the people that are doing this every day. I know, and you've interviewed some of the amazing firms that have really set out to, to do this work. but this is a fun one and I'm curious to hear everyone else's pick. So definitely tweet Dan and I. Dan Runcie: Yeah. Please respond with the ones you like, the ones you didn't like, and let's, let's keep the conversation going. Denisha, it's pleasure as always. Awesome. Thanks for having me.  Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, Go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. If you had a billion-dollar fund to buy the full rights, masters, and publishing of ANY music artists — who are you acquiring to maximize shareholder value? This question was top of mind for real-life portfolio managers the past three years as music catalog sales boomed. Now my guest on the episode, Denisha Kuhlor, and I are asking ourselves the same hypothetical question.


In this episode, we’re doing a mock music rights draft. Akin to the NFL Draft, each of us getting seven picks. Any artists’ catalog, living or dead, is on the table for us to acquire. Our goal is to score the biggest ROI for investors on a 10-year timeline from purely catalog revenue — streaming, syncs, and partnerships, among other sources. Touring or merchandise revenue isn’t factored in, and neither are future catalog releases, only what’s already been released. 


As you’ll see on this episode, Denisha and I took very different approaches to our portfolios. One was more “risk on”, while the other was filled with more “blue chips.” Here’s what to expect:


[0:01] Draft parameters 

[4:51] First-round picks

[9:42] Second-round picks

[14:21] Third-round picks

[18:49] Fourth-round picks

[21:55] Fifth-round picks

[26:04] Sixth-round picks

[29:20] Seventh-round picks

[37:33] Honorable mentions 

[52:21] Up-and-coming artists


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor


Today’s episode was brought to you by feature.fm. Grow your fanbase  and music career with their marketing suite. Get 50% off your first three months by using code: TRAPITAL50


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital


Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.


TRANSCRIPT

Denisha Kuhlor: We've talked about Burna Boy on the podcast before, so don't necessarily have to go over all of his stats, but I think that in one thing I'm finding with people discovering, music from the continent. Is that when they like the artist or there's things they like about the artist or the genre, they go back and listen, to the past catalog.

And so I feel like there's still a lot of untouched ground in terms of people discovering his music and listening to his whole catalog and given how timeless in a lot of ways some of his music feels, I think that we'll have new fans discovering him over and over for a long time and getting to also benefit from the upside of that catalog is great.

I'll also say, he's pretty feature light as well. He's increased the amount of features that he's had in some of his more recent albums, but even like him, some of his breakout singles, whether Ye or Last Last, were Independence, or songs that he did independently and didn't have people featuring.

So I think in terms of some of the big records, there's solo records, which is exciting and that his catalog has a lot of value for people to discover and wanna to.

Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. 

Dan Runcie: Today's episode is one I am really excited for. This is a music rights draft. We are going to be breaking down the artists that we would most wanna have their music rights for. So today's guest friend of the podcast, Denisha Kuhlor, founder of Stan, her and I are both managers of billion dollar funds and we can acquire the full rights, Masters and publishing to any artist, living or dead.

And our job is to maximize value for our investors for the next 10 years. We each get to pick 10 artists and their full rights of music, and we draft them one by one. Denisha, are you ready? How are you feeling?

Denisha Kuhlor: I am, I'm super excited for this. like keep racking my head, I think till the last minute with each pick. but yeah, I'm ready to get 

Dan Runcie: started.

Right. It's funny because we're chatting about this yesterday and I almost wonder like if our chat yesterday like shifts anything, it's like, oh, okay. That's how you're thinking about this. Okay. That's how I'm thinking about this.

Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly, in a funny way, I have some more compassion for venture investors because I can see how societal shift or even group think can shift your perspective even if just a bit. 

Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's fascinating, and I mean with this, we did try to keep the parameters of it a bit clear because obviously in the real music rights acquisition world, there are many different strategies about how these firms are buying and acquiring these rights. Some of them are sitting and holding on them, but we are putting ourselves in a different bucket.

We are assuming that we have the means to maximize this catalogs and this artist's value through multimedia, through sync, through other partnerships, and just the revenue that it naturally generates as sound recordings themselves. And we assume that we're only acquiring what that artist has released up to that point.

Of course, what that artist continues to do in the future may shift the perception of the value of what they've done, but we are only looking at what they've done up to this point. So we're saying that just to lay the groundwork, because someone may be like, oh, what about so-and-so and so-and-so may be an artist that blew up in the past five years.

They may not have Steve as a catalog, but who knows? Maybe we'll both have a few of those picks.

Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Super exciting 

Dan Runcie: All right, so we are gonna be so a few things to just keep in mind as well for listeners. So a few of the factors you both considered were expected longevity of the artist music themselves, which is a big piece of this. You're acquiring these rights, you're trying to get a sense for what is the music that people are still going to listen to, right?

It's one thing if you dominate the charts, that you have a song that takes off, but there's a decay curve. So we're trying to find those artists that have the value, but have the much less steep decay curve as it goes down year over year. There's also a mix too. There's the stable picks, which a lot of the rights go after, which are attractive, but there's also some higher upside picks or some riskier bets.

Where do those fit in? And then we're also taken into account the share of the song recordings that the artists actually have given that certain genres such as hip hop or r and b and pop music specifically, there's a lot more collaboration. There's a lot more hands being shared in that pot. So, how does that line up with another genre where that artist may have a higher percentage of those things?

All those things get factored into how we pick this. So I'm ready to get started and I wanna give you the first pick so you can go and then I'll go after that.

Denisha Kuhlor: Oh, thank you, so my first pick is Mariah Carey. for a few reasons. One, Mariah Carey has one of the most amazing songs in her collection, with Christmas, right? Like it's just being Christmas time, every Christmas, you know, you're going to get, a spike in revenue. Mariah Carey's also been very notable, about talking about that.

She writes a lot of her own music, and I don't think how many people realize how much of a prolific songwriter that she is as well. And with the nature of R and B, much to what you talked about earlier with it being collaborative, Mariah Carey seems to be embraced by a lot of rappers for samples.

So while I definitely think it will be pricey based off literally, all I want for Christmas, if anything, I think that it's. It's a bit of a safe, but also Sure. Fire and, and stable. expectation revenue. 

Dan Runcie: That was my number two pick. So we're definitely aligned there. It makes perfect sense because even if you, all I want for Christmas is a big piece of the pie, I wanna say 300 million streams per year on Spotify was the stat that I heard, and I forget the exact revenue number that it generates. I don't wanna quote it, but it's huge.

Almost 20 number one singles that she's had. So the longevity's there, and as we know we're talking about this a little yesterday, but there's a reason that catalog isn't one that's getting acquired because, A, the people that own it, and I know she may own maybe some of the more recent stuff. I don't know if, Columbia still owns, you know, the stuff from the nineties, especially given the nature of her deal and stuff like that.

But I mean, it's up there, it's definitely one of the most valuable ones. So good. Yeah. Good for you on that one. So I'll take my number one pick here and the number one pick. For this, for me, so much of it was thinking about how millennials and this group are the dominant users of streaming.

Streaming makes up a bulk of the revenue for these streaming services. And who is the biggest artist for millennials overall? Just you look at the sheer numbers and everything like that, it has to be Taylor Swift. Miss 1989 herself, I will take those albums, especially these rerecorded ones, Taylor's version, because they're

Denisha Kuhlor: That's just what I was gonna ask.

Dan Runcie: Yeah. I may not get Scooter bronze version, but I'll get Taylor's version and I'll keep that. I think that it's rare to find a star that has as much impact as she does that is as recent in this way, I mean, just the pure demand for this Eras tour. She could have done 10 x times the number of shows and been touring for the next five years in a in stadiums and still had plenty of demand left over.

And of course, we're not counting touring revenue in this, but it just goes to show how big everything else is. The fact that midnights broke records, both in streaming and in hard sales, I think I saw 230 million dollars that album generated in its revenue. Of course. That her entire rights will likely be owned, you know, herself just given the Taylor's version of everything.

Currently I'm licensed with Republican Universal Music Group. But if in a perfect world you could acquire that, I will take that. She's able to dominate in all of these multiple platforms and if we're really trying to say, okay, 10 years from now, each of her albums is still in the top 50 of the billboard, 200, just from like a rankings perspective.

Well, not all of 'em, but a lot of them, and I think it's harder to come by. So yeah, I'll take T Swift.

Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think it's definitely a solid pick her music evokes so much nostalgia especially as her fans get older, that they'll be listening to it for life, right? Because it's not necessarily attached to a moment or even a recency of today, even though they can appreciate that.

it's, yeah, it's music that's the soundtrack to their lives. So, it makes a ton of sense. And she's also another prolific songwriter, so I would assume, from an ownership perspective, it's quite attractive.

Dan Runcie: Yeah. Not as attractive as Mariah though, because I feel like Taylor more recently, especially with the more pop albums, there was a lot of Max Martin production and a lot of other big name folks and you know, Kendrick Lamar, guest verses and stuff like that. And Mariah had some of that, but I still feel like she always had like her single, you know what I mean? It's like 

Yeah.

fantasy was, they had a remix with ODB or they had a honey remix with the lock, but there was still the core Mariah version that was just

Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, that's a great point. The breakout has frequently remained just her. Yeah. 

Dan Runcie: so we'll see. But yeah, who's your second pick?

Denisha Kuhlor: So my second pick, I thought a lot too about, like world music as we say, or just music that's global. much to your point as well around streaming. I kind of think that it's exciting to pick, an artist that can dominate globally that's, not necessarily a pop artist. And so for that, I went back and forth.

Probably two of the biggest artists. but landed on Bad Bunny, Bad Bunny to me is one just an amazing and exciting artist. He also has a great amount of volume, but much to the point we just made about Mariah Carey's, Taylor Swifts, I think he's really optimized a lot of his catalog, for music that he makes and that music that he solely makes.

Additionally, and I know we're not counting touring, but the sheer amount of numbers he's done touring, I think has not only earned him new fans, but earned him kind of the same type of fan appetite that Taylor Swift has in which the music will evoke a certain nostalgia, whether they saw him perform it on top of a gas station or when he was driving through the Bronx, that leads them to want to continue to listen to this music for the rest of their lives, which hopefully will be financially lucrative.

Dan Runcie: He was on my list as well. You can't ignore just the huge, massive success of this last album, UN Varano Centi. We saw that album dominate week after week after week, and it, the songs are still on Spotify's Top 50 and they're still having traction there. And in an era where there's just so much more music, if you can get a song like that that comes out in 2022 that's still coming out or just an album, it's rare and I know we talk a lot about how monoculture itself is just harder to come by from a artist that is in the US or UK just because those markets are so much more saturated. But the closest we get to anyone reaching Beatlemania is someone like Bad Bunny. So that's a great.

Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly, exactly. I also think a lot both, Drake's wrapped about Bad Bunny numbers and Kanye's reference Bad Bunny's, success. And so I feel like even if his peers in the industry are kind of in some ways either looking at him aspirationally or like he's one that could potentially, hit my success, is also a great indicator.

Dan Runcie: All right, so the next pick I have here is, you mentioned him a second ago, the streaming king himself, 70 million streams. Drake, it's hard to think about the streaming era and not think about him. Just the massive hits that he's had and every time that he releases an album, it still creates this moment that few have the ability to be able to reach moving forward.

I know Birdman will never give up those rights, and Young Money extensively will never give up those rights, but if I had the choice, I would take it. I think the knock against Drake potentially though I will acknowledge is that one. Just the high number of features and samples with all that, there's a high, there's a less likelihood that he may own all or just have a higher percentage of the revenue coming in for this stuff.

But just the sheer volume of whether it's the mixtapes, the playlist, the little two packs that he puts out, the albums, especially some of the ones from like, especially the cash money albums, honestly, from, when was that? So I guess you had 2010, it was official first album, but you had so far gone oh nine and then everything up to Scorpion.

Yeah, those are the biggest albums of the last decade. So I'll take Drake

Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. super solid pick. As someone who has seen Drake in concert 10 times, there's a few things recently. Yeah. 10 times.

 Yeah. So a few things that stuck out to me with Trigg specifically, The Serious Show. So the serious show was a lot of like deep cuts or songs that he hasn't recently performed on some of his tours. And you could just see that fans loved it, right?

A lot of people wanted access to tickets and really loved the music. And then, lastly in part of, in going to these tours, there were so many times that I saw, that he would like go off of stage and to keep the crowd like engaged. They would do a whole set of his music that he wasn't going to perform, and the crowd literally went just as crazy as if he was on, if he was on stage so much to just like the emotional factor that his catalog has.

I feel like Drake has provided the music of a generation. And so, regardless volume wise, they'll be continuing to listen for a long time.

Dan Runcie: Who's your number two?

Denisha Kuhlor: So next I'm going with Burna Boy. one, we've talked about Burna Boy on the podcast before, so don't necessarily have to go over all of his stats, but I think that in one thing I'm finding with people discovering, music from the continent. Is that when they like the artist or there's things they like about the artist or the genre, they go back and listen, to the past catalog.

And so I feel like there's still a lot of untouched ground in terms of people discovering his music and listening to his whole catalog and given how timeless in a lot of ways some of his music feels, I think that we'll have new fans discovering him over and over for a long time and getting to also benefit from the upside of that catalog is great.

I'll also say, he's pretty feature light as well. He's increased the amount of features that he's had in some of his more recent albums, but even like him, some of his breakout singles, whether Ye or Last Last, were Independence, or songs that he did independently and didn't have people featuring.

So I think in terms of some of the big records, there's solo records, which is exciting and that his catalog has a lot of value for people to discover and wanna to. 

Dan Runcie: Yeah, he was on the list as well, and I think the attractive thing with him is similar to the bad Bunny perspective where almost more so because if you are one of the signature artists that is on this entire continent, well, I think for him, obviously more West Africa, but if you're one of the signature artists that's on this entire continent, you have the closer thing to that Beattlemania effect.

And as more people there have access to streaming as more of that just grows and develops, you're going to get that curve too that just grows naturally with what's already there. And you can't undersell that. And I think given an artist like that too, there's probably huge sync opportunities as multimedia and entertainment starts to grow from that, from, from those parts of the worlds too.

So there's a lot of value there. Yeah.

Denisha Kuhlor: exactly.

 Who do you 

have 

Dan Runcie: pick, this is a pick with the mind and not necessarily with the heart, but I am a, in the role of a asset manager or not the role of a fan. And my pick here is Eminem and my pick for Eminem, and the reason I pick him is because his music is still some of the most streamed music across the board.

And his Curtains Call album was the bestselling rap album in the UK in 2022. His greatest hits album from 2005 was the best selling rap album 17 years later. And I remember seeing that stat and I was just like, wow. And then you just think about the nature of his music. And even though he's someone that I feel, if you're someone that lives in the Twitter circles that you and I live in, Eminem is someone that I think has largely fallen out of

popular discourse.

And people do look at him a bit more, distinctly in a way that they did in 20 years ago. But if you don't live in those circles, which the majority of people don't, they still listen to his music and still revere him. And just on a sheer number perspective, there's probably more people that listen to hip hop that have an artist like Eminem and their top three and they're top two and not two.

And you look at some of the numbers as well for songs like Till I Collapse and Lose Yourself, that just get played over and over for people working out and all of these things. Those songs have a timelessness to them. I mean, on stats, he was the bestselling like recorded artist of the two thousands. He was up there for the 2010s.

He still tours massively, and even though a lot of his albums that probably generate the most revenue are songs that I'm no longer listening to, I can acknowledge that this has huge value. And as an asset manager, as a fund manager, I would do quite well with that, with his rights.

Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. No, I don't know if that's where I would have went, but after hearing your explanation, it makes a ton of sense. Eminem fans are, independent in the sense that they're fans regardless of whether he's the top of a pop culture, relevancy or not. yeah, I think, that's really, really interesting.

And the Stan's side, he literally pioneered the word we all use today, so I think in some ways too, people forget just, how impactful culturally he's been. so yeah, that makes a 

Dan Runcie: Nice. All right. who's your.

Denisha Kuhlor: So for my next one, I kind of wanted to go in a direction of some newer artists that are still proving themselves out of it, but I think have a lot of potential. but keeping in mind to what they've done so far, I wanna go with Lizzo. I. think of Lizzo, you know, a lot of us were actually introduced, to her in because of a sync, in one of the, in a movie on Netflix.

I'm blanking on the name of the movie, but that sync actually introduced me, to her. I think that Lizzo's music is just like the perfect type of music for a movie trailer, in the sense of some of her upbeat, more like pop, pop records. It's like the perfect songs to usher in like a romcom.

So from a sing perspective, I think it has a lot of potential. She's also known as, pretty talented on the songwriting side, so I think the ownership would be, I think the ownership would be attractive. and in her last tours, she's done pretty well while also there were smaller venues, the fan base and her having an engaged fan base is definitely there as well.

Obviously and from an asset manager perspective, definitely wouldn't be looking to pick it up. But the numbers I've picked up, some of my earlier bets, but I think it would be a fun bet to have and see how it does in the future.

Dan Runcie: It's funny because she's someone that I think she has a very high diehard fan to fan ratio, if that makes sense. And I say that because she's someone who. Does quite well. She sells out arenas and she does multiple shows in some cities, in arenas, in an era where it's very hard to get artists that are topping the charts with their streaming to sell out the same venues.

The knock against her though is that she doesn't stream necessarily as well. Like she hasn't had an album that's like top the charts. I don't think she's had, you know, a 100K in the first week necessarily. But those fans do show up. so there's something to be said there. I think the other thing too, when you're mentioning the sync, I was thinking about, you know, that car, I think it's Carnival Cruise, that commercial, and it has that song that's like Hands to the Sky.

Show me that your mind, like, I didn't even realize that was a Lizzo song until I just looked it up because it was stuck in my head and I'm like, oh, that's a Lizzo song from like 2016, like Pret Truth. So I think you're right with the sync piece of it. I mean, a song like Truth Hurts Itself, juice, literally anything from whether it's special or the album before this, I think that there is strong potential there.

So I think Lizzo is definitely a good multimedia play. Assuming like we are in this role, you have the ability to maximize the asset.

Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, exactly, exactly. It definitely comes down to maximization of the asset on her part, and in a way. I don't see streaming continuing to go up. I think her engage fans like her, they listen to her, and they keep it at, and they keep it at that. So without kind of very targeted, like a targeted approach to maximizing her syncs, the asset becomes less attractive.

Dan Runcie: So the next pick, and this is a bit strategic because I wanna take this artist before you take them, is SZA and. picking SZA because she obviously doesn't have a huge catalog. We're talking two studio albums really, that have came out. But if I could get those studio albums for a good price, I'm getting an album in control that is literally stayed on the charts for five years.

People are listening, streaming and buying the hell out of that thing, and it hasn't really stopped. And this album is setting all these records and every time you see what the 10, 11 weeks that SSA's SOS has been at the top of the charts, that's in the territory with like Adele, Beyonce and all these other artists because first here's breaking records for female R and B artists then is just, you know, female artists.

Now it's artists in general, like how many people are at those levels. So sure. I don't think I'm necessarily gonna have to pay Taylor Swift, Drake or Eminem numbers to get SZA rights, but this is a hits game, and if I can get two of her hits, certified hits albums, that could be worth more than 10 of someone else's mediocre ones.

Denisha Kuhlor: I completely agree. SZA is it makes so much sense. It makes so much sense. I'd also say what's so exciting about CSA when you think about it is two studio albums and being able to maintain that relevancy and the sheer amount of time that those albums have lived, is so exciting and you can continue to maximize those two albums even for years to come.

Because for everyone, it still feels very relevant.

Dan Runcie: All right. Who's your, you've picked five, right? Okay, so last two picks. who's your sixth pick?

Denisha Kuhlor: Yes. So I'm gonna keep the S theme here with SZA. and this one was somewhat a big streaming play. but Summer Walker, summer Walker was one that initially when I first made this list, didn't come to mind to be honest. But as I thought about it, and I will probably mention this more in some of my honorable mentions, but I was going for Usher, and I thought about the record that they had together and thought about a lot of the records that Summer Walker has broken.

 and shout out to the folks that love Renaissance, I think that people don't even realize or truly understand how big of an artist she's been, from a streaming perspective. she's had some really impressive numbers when she releases the album, she's done great numbers. and People continue to listen to her. I also think, you know, she's toyed around with retiring as well as not doing, as well as not doing tours, creating less opportunities for fans to be able to interact with her, which, fortunately or unfortunately leads them back to her music as that's one of the only sources of ways that they can interact with her.

So, I don't know if I see as much sync potential with an artist like her as I would maybe a Lizzo, but I think she can continue to generate solid, solid streaming numbers, for years, for

years. 

Dan Runcie: a good pick. It's funny, she's someone that's not on my list, but when you mentioned her I was like, I can't believe I'd even think of the think of her. But you're absolutely right. She has, especially from a streaming perspective, she has numbers that rival some of the artists that we mentioned before when it comes to streaming and on average, streaming is making up 70 to 80% often of the revenue that comes in from these music rights.

So, it makes sense to be able to have that. And I think that just given how much she's been able to speak to an audience that doesn't really have as many people speaking directly to them as well in this way of, okay, who is making music for black women, who is making like doing that? And I think when you think about it that way, that list does become slim.

Especially when we're talking about artists at this level, obviously, you know, touring and some of the more personal things of just like being out there that isn't her style, that isn't her vibe or her personality necessarily. But we don't necessarily need that and I think that there's clearly value in over it, still over it.

And, you know, the small features and things that she's done here and there since then. 

Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. 

Dan Runcie: All right. So mine, I have two picks left. this is where it does get tough because, looking through some of these names and there's some ones that I like and, okay, so I am going to take Bruno Mars and I'm gonna take Mars because the fact that he has music that I think honestly can transcend in terms of the versatility of the music.

Songs like 24K Magic or Uptown Funk, or.

Denisha Kuhlor: Very intergenerational as well. 

Dan Runcie: Yeah. You hear, could hear it in the supermarket, you could hear it being out, like you could hear it in syncs or different types of things, even the more recent stuff with Silk Sonic and getting his chair of that with with Anderson .Paak there, I think there's a huge potential there.

I can't speak as much to the hard numbers, but I do think that the multimedia opportunities are there. He's a pit maker and I think it would be valuable to have his stuff in there.

Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so from kind of a multimedia or even multidisciplinary perspective, my next one is Pharrell.

Pharrell's been a part of a lot of really big records, records that feel intergenerational. I would say, and I don't know the numbers of this. I would say his streaming probably isn't in the highest percentile, but it's also not in the lowest percentile.

Like it's somewhere probably in the media, in the middle, given all the records he's been a part of. That makes it kind just a steady asset and also transcends multiple decades in a way that if something does come back in style, You can benefit from that upside. He also has a few records, I think about a record like Happy, that sync wise I think will continue to be used for years and years to come, in a host of ways.

So Pharrell is one that could be a really safe bet or maybe a really unsafe bet, just dependent on how, things go. But I think there's enough factors, in, which he falls kind of nicely in to justify the bet. But I will say I don't think it will be, I don't think it will be cheap

 but I do think it can have a big upside.

Dan Runcie: The upside smart thing about that pick, he's someone else I didn't think of, but I think it was a really good pick because you get the artist Pharrell and you get the producer Pharrell, so you get everything from, I forget that Sta but when was it? In 2002 or 2003, the Neptunes were responsible for 43% of the music that was on top 40 radio that was on, you know, pop So you get all those songs and then you get any of the stuff you did with NERD, you get any of like the Child Rebel Soldier stuff. I mean it makes a lot of sense. And then even songs like, Get Lucky was huge as well. I know that there's been a bunch of controversy around blurred lines, but I'm still sure that the revenue from that song continues to be massive.

So I think that's a smart pick.

Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. And I think in the future we'll see kind of that doubling, right? artists like a Pharrell will continue to be super valuable when it comes to being able to capture the peak of their rights because they just have them.

Dan Runcie: Definitely, definitely. so then with the last pick, it's funny, I hesitated with this one a bit, but I'm gonna go ahead and pick it anyway. It's probably the catalog or the rights that would go for the most money if anyone's was on the table at all right now. And it's Michael Jackson and I'm going to take his, because the fact that Thriller is now over 40 years old and I think that the baseline for streams from that song and streams from everything else is quite high.

It is strong and there's value there. This is another one where I think I'm separating a bit of the personal versus the, you know, actual like business asset aspect of it, because I do think that the multimedia aspect of it. Yeah. You know, that would be difficult, and even me as an asset manager would probably be finding ways to create multimedia opportunities for that asset continuing forward.

But on the other hand, there's still Broadway musicals, there's still Vegas intimate shows that they are creating off of this person's music. I think Variety had released that report a couple of months ago that said that they were in talks of a 900 million sale for half of the rights. I forget like exactly what the terms would be and including a few things, but I felt like that was too big not to ignore from an asset management perspective.

So it would be the Michael Jackson rights for the final pick.

Denisha Kuhlor: Wow. That's a really strong, a really strong final pick and makes my last pick even harder. 

Dan Runcie: You had seven though, right? 

Denisha Kuhlor: Yes, I did. I did. My seventh one is just a different caliber

Dan Runcie: Wait, wait. You, oh, oh, oh. With Pharrell you mean?

Denisha Kuhlor: no, no, no, no. So my seventh one actually is, 

Dan Runcie: Wait, wait. Did we miss one? Hold on. Let me just run through it real quick. You had Mariah, Bad Bunny, Burna Boy, Lizzo, Summer Walker, Pharrell 

Denisha Kuhlor: Yes

Dan Runcie: Oh, oh. We both have one more. Oh, okay. I missed up. Okay. You're right, you're

right. Yeah. okay. 

All one?

Denisha Kuhlor: Yes. So my last pick is DMX. One, I think in a lot of ways DMX has a very unique style of music. It has a very unique style of rap. Talking to a lot of, or not talking to, but I guess watching their interviews. A lot of rappers are very inspired by DMX and he still gets credited, for, you know, rap styles or little lines that, artists borrow or throw in their music and he has a bit of a high sample potential.

I think we'll see some of his music sampled more and oddly enough, whether it's like a movie, like a Creed or something like that, this sheer like BPM of some of his music, is definitely attractive from like a sync perspective. For, upbeat movies that wanna like, leverage a rap song or leverage hip hop.

and I also think, and he's done very well in getting quite a few syncs when it comes to video games, I'm thinking about sings so often this podcast from a movie perspective, but gaming syncs are huge as well. and DMX's music is quite huge in the gaming community. So if anything, from an, optimizing the asset perspective, I would focus on optimizing his syncs for gaming, because of the BPM of his music.

And I think I would get it at a favorable rate.

Dan Runcie: Yeah, I couldn't imagine there might be some high ROI potential there, I would say and just given how dominant that run was, and I think some people forget. Yeah. Each of those first albums was just like, you know, topping the charts and everything. Especially from like 98 to 03'. it was, on, I mean, there were other rappers who may have had like, you know, bigger commercial success at that time from whether it was someone like Eminem or some others. But in terms of like relevance, that still matters to a lot of people and how that can continue. X is up there. Do you think we'll see an X movie at some point?

Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I hope we do. and that's how I reference, how a lot of rappers like, feel about him because musicians appreciating another artist are probably our most likely way. You see obviously 50 cent, 50 cent in TV and film production, Drake with Euphoria, even Childish Gambino, right?

So him being revered by other artists I think puts him on the best path for us to see that. which also would be 

Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a good pick. So I think so. I actually, but now my seventh pick, because I'm like re-looking at these. I had Taylor, Drake, Eminem, SZA, Bruno Mars, Michael, and then now the seventh pick. this is tough, but, I'm gonna take the Weeknd and I'm gonna take him because 

Denisha Kuhlor: Oh, amazing. 

Dan Runcie: I think it's really hard to have a song that's been released like in the pandemic era of music that still tops the charts, but everything from After Hours is still getting so much radio play.

He just did a remix with Ariana Grande, Die For You, a song that came out now, what, seven years ago. And that song had topped the charts. He has this ability to just, I think it's him and a handful of other artists that just have this ability to make music that can continue to like pierce through. I mean, we didn't get as much of that from Don FM but I think even he himself, like that album didn't get as much, you know, focus the same way that everything from After Hours did.

And 

he has this way of just kind of capturing, a generation just with like the feel and the vibe, I think sync potential, especially as he's gonna be in more movies now himself and what that could look like. So, yeah definitely.

Denisha Kuhlor: That's super strong. He makes hits.

Dan Runcie: Another pop artist, so I know, you know, there's a bunch of Max Martin and other producers that'll get their share, but I'll take his, so, Yeah. No, super. Right. So yeah, so let's just round out the lists here. and then let's share. So with the first pick, and then in order you took Mariah Carey, then Bad Bunny, then Burna Boy, then Lizzo, Summer Walker, then Pharrell Williams and DMX. And then I took Taylor Swift, Drake, Eminem, SZA, Bruno Mars, Michael Jackson, and the Weeknd.

So, yeah. How are you feeling about your picks? Did you feel like you got the artist that you wanted? Do you feel like you, you know, got the ones that you wanted to like, lighten everything up?

Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I do. I think that some of those artists are bets that would hopefully, positively surprise me. but there's enough artists, within those picks that I know revenue will be generated and will have a positive upside regardless. If anything, we can continue to crown on Mariah Carey and some of Pharrell's records and even just the dominance Bad Bunny continues to have for a very long time while also seeing, how dominant, for decades to come an artist like a Summer Walker.

Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think if we were to look at these catalogs like, or look at both of our portfolios, I think you would have like the Vanguard Growth Fund and I would have like the Vanguard Blue Chip Fund if that makes sense. Right?

Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly, exactly. 

Dan Runcie: You know, you may generate some higher returns, but with that, you know, there's more risk that comes with it as well.

but yeah, mine, think it's probably assumed that you would generate higher returns because I feel like SZA's probably the, not even like, oh, it's probably the pick of mine that is the least blue chip relative to the rest of them. And yeah. enough, even someone like Bruno Mars is probably more skewed towards less of that certified pick on mine just because of how much of a more, strong base the other artists do have.

Denisha Kuhlor: Totally. If I had to, compare thinking about venture, I would say you definitely took like a series C, series D, growth fund, with a few, maybe more Series A, like a series A pick. I think maybe this is to my roots, I took more of a series B potentially with a good opportunity fund and skewed heavily ine and seed, with a few of those artists as well. 

Dan Runcie: No, that makes sense. That makes sense. What were some of your honorable mentions? Yeah, maybe you can name like three, maybe first I wanna do honorable mentions, and then second, I wanna talk about some rising folks. Maybe some people that you would've picked, but maybe you didn't pick, because it's like, no, it's too early.

It's too early, right? But yeah,

Denisha Kuhlor: let yeah, no, 

Dan Runcie: with the honorable mentions like who are one or two that you had considered?

Denisha Kuhlor: For sure. So the biggest honorable mention for me is 

Usher, 

Dan Runcie: yep. He 

Denisha Kuhlor: um 

Dan Runcie: mine too.

Denisha Kuhlor: usher,

 the Vegas residency, the, tiny desk Usher's been having a phenomenal few last years. and I think people don't even realize the residency really brought it back for a lot of people. The breadth of his catalog's so talented, his music is intergenerational or continues to transcend generations. Usher was one that I thought a lot about. I was kind of going back and forth between Usher and Pharrell, and I picked Pharrell because of the exposure to so many other artists that he has. but Usher was a really, really big one.

Dan Runcie: Yeah, he was on my list too, because I think similarly, this Vegas residency has created a moment and it's hard to be able to do that. I can't speak to, I haven't looked at his stream numbers and I mean, I really even like back when I feel like Usher's music was at like the top of pop culture and stuff. I don't, I wasn't tracking, oh, how high Confessions on the Billboard 200. That's just not something that I thought or cared about time, but I think that he's won. He was on my list as well. Someone else that was on my list too was, Kendrick Lamar was on my list too, because good kid, m.A.A.d city's been on the charts for a decade plus.

People are still listening to that, and that's higher charts now than what the last album is. Mr. Morale, the big step was, I know that album was more controversial but the fact that Damn and, good kid, m.A.A.d city are still on the charts. You have still Pimp A Butterfly. You never know what type of multimedia opportunities that can turn into.

I think if you're talking at least in my opinion, like pure like bar for bar, like the best like rapper lyricist of the past decade plus, I think it is him and there's something to be said for what value have. So yeah, he was who I was going back and forth with him and the Weeknd, for that seventh pick.

But yeah, he was my honor, audible mention.

Denisha Kuhlor: Kendrick pick is strong. my rap honorable mention is actually J. Cole 

Dan Runcie: Yep. I had him on the list. 

Denisha Kuhlor: As someone that gets mentioned in, a lot of the conversations with Kendrick and I think for Cole, a few reasons. one, the whispers of retiring are looming and we know that he has the desire to retire sometime in the near future.

So I think people will cherish the records that he has even more, the fan base of the Dreamville built is super engaged. super active, and I think we'll be that way for a long time to come. And J. Cole, you know, picked up a lot of good features when he was coming up. Maybe it's the Rock Nation effect or whatever, but he has some amazing features, whether it's, party with Beyonce or just like, he has some really great features that he's gotten as well.

 So yeah, that's one I would be super excited to have.

Dan Runcie: Every time I look at hits, daily double stats, just seeing who's trending. No role models is always on that chart somewhere. and it's now been, eight and a half, nine years since that song came out. So it's a hits game. If I can get one of the biggest rap songs of the decade and one of the more popular rap albums of the decade too, then you take that obviously so many other hits as you mentioned Party, and a lot of the other ones that he's then.

But that song, I think itself is worth at least bringing the conversation up. A few people that I didn't mention, but I'm curious if they came up for you. We can just keep these kind of rapid fire before we get to the Rising But did you consider Ed Sheeran?

Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I did, I thought a lot about like having UK representation, . and he came up for me there. He's also done a lot of like features with, African artists, whether it's Stormzy, Burna Boy, but I ultimately shied away from him. I don't even know if I have the right things to point to it, but something didn't feel right.

Dan Runcie: Okay. He was on the list I had as well. I just preferred the other ones more.

Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Like it's not even fully like quantitative, like no. Yeah, It just, yeah, like he was compelling, but not compelling enough to make you wanna get excited. 

Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's like I know that Divide was a huge album. I know that Shape of You is probably one of the biggest hits of the past 15 years if we're going back that far. But yeah, you know, it's just kind of tough cuts. I mean, yeah, I'm sure that al that catalog will probably generate more revenue overall, maybe then like scissors, like someone that I took.

But I that Ed Sheeran's catalog isn't gonna come at, you know, a cheap cost, but who knows? So he's at least someone I thought about. Did you consider, this is going back a little bit further, but did you consider Celine Dion?

Denisha Kuhlor: Oh, no, I didn't. But Celine Deion makes so much sense for so many reasons, but I didn't, you know, I'm thinking about my picks, probably Mariah Carey and DMX were as far back as went and that's because I was thinking about the streaming optimization as well, with the number you said. And IFPI's latest report streaming is just taking so much of the conversation.

I would probably go for a lookalike audience to Celine Dion, so maybe more like an Adele, which also wouldn't come cheap. but audience that is a little more, well, didn't I take Adele? I think that Adele almost, in a way like Ed Sheeran, for all the right reasons. It's like, no, I wouldn't get pushback if I was thinking about my LPs comment saying, I don't get pushback in any way for picking Adele, but in a lot of ways Adele feels safe. And while her music is easily recognizable and does well, her type of music in a lot of ways, doesn't really feel like something that you play and stream over and over almost in the way that Taylor Swift's music does.

and so while ballads are great, and I think people really, really love them from a replay value on streaming, I just didn't get as excited as I wanted to.

Dan Runcie: I think you're right because I think that the reason that I didn't take her is because I thought that it could have easily been a catalog and rights that you would overpay for because of the name and everything that she's done. But when you look at the pure streaming numbers, yeah, I know that Easy on me had like broken records at the time, but still those records I believe got broken like a week later or a month later by BTS or whoever else, it was Bad Bunny and since then Taylor Swift, right? So yeah, I questioned the replay value and I do think that because, yeah, I thought that it would've been high compared to some of these other artists. Going back to the Celine point, I think you were right, because I also shifted a bit just thinking about how big the streaming error is and how that generates so much cattle revenue for this.

And one of the big thesis that I've had overall with music rights sales and acquisition is that a lot of these deals have overvalued the artists from the seventies and eighties and undervalued the from the nineties and two thousands. Because if you thinking about the dominant we're streaming as and who are the dominant generation of those consumers, as great as you know, Celine and others were, the songs that are most likely to resonate are like Taylor Swift and Drake, you know, are gonna be more relevant to this generation than Madonna or Celine Dion or some of the others.

And I did consider. Madonna as well, just thinking about it. I know this next tour she's gonna do on is gonna be big, but I held back then for the same Celine thing. It's like, yeah, maybe if this was 20 years ago when we were doing this draft in 2003, then maybe I would've taken Celine Dion or Madonna but I think that decay curve is definitely, you know, flattened a bit where maybe the upside, not just the upside potential, but the consistency just may not be, or not the consistency.

Obviously it's consistent, but it just didn't seem to valuable as some of these other picks.

Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. No, I agree. And I think, you know, in like working the music or working the records, so you can optimize your catalog. You have to kind of think about who's making the decisions now or who's coming into power now. and some of those executives are younger. and so, thinking about how they might place value, even though they're familiar, obviously with the brand and the artists, on a premium for that music, I think it would be a much longer conversation much to what you said, which is probably why some of these artists were willing to sell, and kind of let the asset manager deal with the headache of justifying the value while they've extracted the value from the asset manager who's excited to go out and 

Dan Runcie: Yeah. Did you consider Beyonce?

Denisha Kuhlor: I did consider Beyonce. I just, it's expensive very, very, very expensive. it would be, I think, you know, Beyonce is an interesting one. She's actually one of my favorites in the sense that I think uses her catalog really well with all kind of the moments that she's had, whether it's the Super Bowl or, her Coachella performance.

She reworks her music in a way that continues to feel new. Like as an artist, almost to the point of where I also had trepidation with Adele, how Adele navigates her artistry. while I respect, and obviously we want artists that set boundaries. I don't know if it's in my best interest as an artist, right?

She kind of drops her music and waits long stretches before going back her choice to cancel her tour and do a Las Vegas residency, means there'll be a lot of places untouched unless she decides to, venture out. Whereas someone like Beyonce is exciting because her music is always being brought back, right?

I did consider, interestingly enough, Destiny's child, because I feel like I, it would get the upside of every time a Beyonce performs or has a big, moment on the world stage, at a price point. And maybe Beyonce's part wouldn't be up for grabs, but other people's would at a price point that would be attractive.

Dan Runcie: The other thing about Beyonce too is that she's kind of like Lizzo, but magnified in this sense that very high touring to streaming output, if that makes sense. But I don't get to collect tour revenue. I'm collecting the music rights and a lot of the songs from Renaissance. So if you compare the streaming of SZA's SOS to Beyonce's Renaissance, like it isn't even close. SZA's is much more popular there and the same way that I'm seeing good kid, m.A.A.d city and 2014 Forest Hill drives and Eminem's Greatest hits albums like still at the top of that charts. I'm not seeing the same thing for Lemonade or Beyonce in a way that's almost surprising because you feel like, okay, the generational impact, those records are huge.

Everyone revered them, but this is a game and they just aren't at that And I know you'd have to pay a premium because of it's Beyonce.

Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Beyonce is one of the biggest, and probably most vocal invisible fan bases in the world. but that doesn't also in some ways, show for the parts that we just talked about, right? Some of these younger fan bases or these fan bases for other artists, They care very much about streaming.

They were a digital native or streaming first, and they're going to continue to optimize for that. whereas, like you said, I think because Beyonce's fan base is so engaged, so passionate, you see the power of the fan base come out really in touring, whether they listen to Beyonce every day for the past year, I think the conversion and amount probably of minutes listened, for a Beyonce to, in terms of needing to then feeling compelled to buy a ticket is much lower than the minutes needed to be listened for a SZA or some of these other artists to then lead to that conversion of buying, buying tickets and so she has a fan base that's gonna support, like regardless way. and like you said, that's not well great. Not in our best interest.

Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. Because it's 

like she's been making music for over 25 years now as a high profile public recording artist, and in that way, because of the touring and amount, amount times, you got to see her. It's almost like her touring business is closer to Elton John or Billy Joel than it is SZA in that way.

Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Beyonce is a touring artist who has the ability to use that fan base to parlay into super financially lucrative deals. But as you mentioned in the beginning of this criteria, unfortunately we'd not be seeing a lot of that. 

Dan Runcie: Right. And yeah, if you acquire the rights to Alien Superstar, you gotta split that with 24 different writers, so

Denisha Kuhlor: Yes. Another great point. Beyonce's been highly collaborative,and very good about giving people opportunities and also giving them credit. but when it comes to the piece of the pie, which I'm sure she could do based off her ability to get extreme amounts of touring revenue, high leverage, brand partnerships, but when it comes to the part that we can control as asset managers, we'd definitely be paying a high premium, and hoping for the best in someone. 

Dan Runcie: Got it. Yep. I agree. All right, so a few rising stars that I had had and considered, but didn't. So, I look at someone like, so it's funny, neither of us picked any country or rock artists, but I look at the popularity of someone like Luke Combs and even though I don't listen to that genre of music or as much, he's dominated the charts.

He has continued to just, you know, put out and, you know, someone that's still pretty young, I wanna say, I don't know, he is like late twenties, early thirties, 10 years from now, could we look back 

Denisha Kuhlor: and could 

Dan Runcie: this person have like, you know, impact level of like your, whether it's your Garth Brooks or Blake Shelton or like one of these other artists that like people just come to time and time again and they put up strong numbers both in streaming and in pure album sales.

Someone like that could be interesting. I feel like Morgan Wallen is someone else that fits in this category where he is also just high on the charts 

Denisha Kuhlor: and 

Dan Runcie: stuff. I mean, obviously his incidents and everything else that he's been notorious for would cast a shadow on that. And I don't know if I'd be willing that necessarily, but he's one that came to mind too.

And I think there's other artists too, like whether it's like, you know, Billy Eilish or Olivia Rodrigo it must have been like, okay, I could see them continuing, but we'll see.

Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I thought like a Rosalia, on my end, for example. the other two that came to mind, and this one I don't know how to feel, but something in me was like considerate. NBA Youngboy, he has a fan base that's passionate right? And is digitally native and they stream and they don't really need, the opinions of the outside world when it comes to music.

He was one probably not a category for Verizon stores and more honorable mentions, but I'll mention it. Anyway, Frank Ocean. I feel like there's value there, in Frank Ocean, for sure. And then, Rema, I feel like Rema is the next step, when it comes to music from the continent.

The folks at Maven have continued to do an amazing job, and you look at Calm down, it's one of the biggest records in the world. And not only, within Africa or the United States, but also within India, which I thought was just super interesting. So definitely a really, really global artist. He's had records, calm Down, is doing well before this Selena Gomez remix.

Dume B has been cited even on present Barack Obama's playlist. So I think he can hold his own, for sure. And feature wise he's very exciting as well. And he's still young enough, but with enough volume where I feel like I could get a competitive rate.

Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, those are good picks there. let's see, another group I thought of, or not group, but where were they on this list? Let's see. So I did consider some K-pop in the mix. I was like, okay, what would that BTS catalog look like, right? I mean, because I feel like in

the same rationale that you had about Bad Bunny and Burna boy, I was considering them as well.

I think what made me pause, I was. The fact that at least some of the group members now need to join the military, or at least on their like what does that look like? How does that impact the longevity of their music as opposed to them being able to kind of like ride the waves themselves?

So it'll be interesting, right? It's because I think especially now, it's like, I feel like, I don't know, in, earlier days when it was more common for popular figures, whether it's in sports or entertainment to be drafted, there was less pop culture. Things saturating their mind. So when they came back, it's like, oh, okay.

I don't know, this might be a bad analogy, but like, oh, Muhammad Ali's back still relevant. Okay. him, you know, he's doing opposed to a way where I hope by the time that BTS is like back in full effect again, that they still can command that same power that they once did. So,

Dan Runcie: Yeah. So that dynamic is also why I kept them off. I thought a lot about like boy bands, interestingly enough. So when you look at the Jonas Brothers or even One Direction, and it's almost like the, at their peak like level of fandom, that their audience like gives them, I almost feel like it can't be topped again, for so many reasons, right?

Like falls off in a way that you're really excited to embrace maybe when you're younger or them having a younger fan. Interestingly enough, the only person in, it's not a boy band, but that I feel like has captured that audience and has truly, really been able to maintain it, is the artist who did end up picking, which is Taylor Swift.

Taylor Swift was able to successfully, like, grow with her fan base from this like teen era. to now we see that the upside is there for her because her fans just have more disposable income that they can spend on something that was so important to them for so long in their. Did you consider Harry Styles?

Denisha Kuhlor: I did. but interestingly enough, I just go back and forth so much with, it feels still like a moment. I don't, I would like to see more catalog growth or more catalog volume before fully wanting to, before fully wanting to commit. It's one that I'd have on my radar, but I don't think, I'd be ready to start negotiating just yet.

Dan Runcie: That's fair. Even if you got the one direction stuff, his chair of the One Direction stuff.

Denisha Kuhlor: Now if I did that, that would make it, that would make it more attractive because it gives a bit of both worlds, the nostalgia from one direction as well as the bet on him as a solo artist but one kind of at least makes, whatever amount you spend, it gives a justification for it being stable to some some extent.

Dan Runcie: Yeah, I don't know. That might not have been the best hypothetical to pose at you though, because like when Justin Timberlake sold his catalog, that was just him as a solo artist that had nothing to do with NSYNC or Yeah. like that.

Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. 

and I think it's harder than we realize. And looking at a sync perspective, we would still need, even if we brought really valuable syncs sync opportunities, with their music, we would still need the permission of so many other people. So the sheer, operational output that would be required to truly maximize it, or at least that part of it, couldn't be taken lightly as well.

Especially when you have so many other artists in your catalog in which the sign off to get a sync could be much

Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good point. All right, well I know you and I could talk for hours about this topic and could probably draft seven more if we wanted to. I feel like we almost kind of did the, last part of the conversation. 

Denisha Kuhlor: We might need to have few more maybe pre-seed edition opportunity fund 

edition. 

Dan Runcie: Yeah, I feel like there's a few ways we could like set parameters around it where it's like, okay, only, you know, people under 30 years old. And then how does that change the or over 50 or people that longer with us or in a particular genre. I think there's so many others like that we didn't even mention.

But yeah. any last words before we wrap this up?

Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I mean, if anything, I have a lot of respect for the people that are doing this every day. I know, and you've interviewed some of the amazing firms that have really set out to, to do this work. but this is a fun one and I'm curious to hear everyone else's pick. So definitely tweet Dan and I.

Dan Runcie: Yeah. Please respond with the ones you like, the ones you didn't like, and let's, let's keep the conversation going. Denisha, it's pleasure as always.

Awesome. Thanks for having me. 

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Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.



]]> 3651 no The Short-Form Video Wars: TikTok vs Shorts vs Reels (with Tati Cirisano) https://www.trapital.com/podcast Short-form video has exploded in popularity the past three years, buoyed by TikTok. Copycat apps and features are now the norm across social media sites — Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, and Instagram. MIDiA analyst Tati Cirisano joins me on this episode to break down the ongoing war between short-form video’s main players.  The music industry is certainly keeping a close eye on the battle. Short-form video has been a boon for music discovery. Though, many music execs would also argue music has played a big factor in the rise of these platforms, and the industry wants to better monetize that. Tati and I covered all this and more on the show. Here’s everything we hit on: [02:59] Vine paved the way for short-form video [05:56] TikTok filled void in social media [06:53] Factors behind TikTok’s success [10:19] TikTok is an entertainment platform, not social  [13:20] Potential pitfalls for TikTok  [23:10] YouTube’s biggest advantages  [25:53] Overlap between YouTube’s short-form and long-form audiences [29:37] Facebook and Instagram Reels are picking up steam [35:19] Instagram Reels more natural to the platform than YT Shorts [35:35] Meta’s advertising is both a pro and a con [36:39] Active creator vs. passive watcher user bases [38:35] In what scenario does TikTok lose top spot in short-form video war? [41:50] Best platform for artists? [43:08] Best platform for record labels? [44:05] Best monetized platform? [47:11] Will there be a new form of content consumption in the next five years? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Tati Cirisano, @tatianacirisano This episode was brought to you by trac. Learn more about how artists can bring web2 and web3 together for their fans at trac.co  Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Tatiana Cirisano: One of my pros to talk about something that I've just, I don't know if this is still true, but something that I've heard from marketers, music marketers in the past is that, Instagram just has more trust with brands than TikTok and other platforms that are new because they've been using it for so long. [00:00:13] They know what the deal is like. It just has, better relationships in that respect. but if that's also leading to more ads on the platform, then it's kind of a pro and a con. [00:00:42] Dan Runcie: All right, today we have a jam packed episode that is about the short form video wars, which platform will come out on top. And I'm joined by none other than Tati Cirisano from Video Research. Welcome. [00:00:55] Tatiana Cirisano: Thanks Dan. Good to be back. Thanks for entertaining another rant of mine, [00:01:00] Dan Runcie: No, this is good. And with what you write about what you cover, you're the perfect person to have this conversation with. There has been so much focus as anyone listening to this podcast, who knows about the influence of short form video, what it does for discovery, for music, for artists, how record labels and all these companies are tackling it. [00:01:19] Now we have several companies that are vying for that spot with similar but different products. But before we jump into TikTok, YouTube, and Instagram, I feel like we gotta give props where it is and give a shout out to Vine because I don't know if we were to be here if it weren't for Vine paving the way, so, oh, gone too soon. [00:01:41] Tatiana Cirisano: you're giving me flashbacks to the Water Malone guy. I don't know if anyone else is gonna remember that, but the specific things that went viral on that platform. Oh God,yeah. We have to give the shout out to Vine. [00:01:53] Dan Runcie: It was the perfect example of constraints, breeding, creativity, six, seven, second videos, and people had whole narratives of storytelling there. It was so unique to see what people were able to do. I feel like at its peak I saw it was 200 million monthly active users, which obviously is a drop in the bucket compared to the services we're about to talk about. [00:02:17] But at that moment, that felt huge. It really was the platform. And obviously I know that Twitter had other objectives and things there, but. It's almost like a little too early as well. I just don't know if culture was like right there. And even music itself with artists, I feel like there was a lot of influencers, but there's a few artists, but not as many that really tapped in where it was really a huge discovery platform. [00:02:41] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, and I think also like people weren't so comfortable with creating content at that time, or it wasn't something that was like so readily available. Like now I feel like every teenager just kind of create, thinks of creating content as, you know, just part of the social toolbox. Or maybe they want to be a content creator and that's, you know, that's like a sort of a new aspiration. [00:03:02] But I think at the time of Vine, maybe that's another reason it didn't pop off, is it wasn't like the consumer behavior wasn't there. There were some people that loved to make videos, but I think most people were just watching. [00:03:11] Dan Runcie: Right, and I feel like too, the people that really popped off on that platform, They never quite got as big as some of the people that are on the platforms. We're gonna talk about, thinking about whether, you know, you mentioned someone where thinking about Alphacat or like King Bach, some of the others that were big there, and I know they had moments, but again, it was almost a little bit ahead of its time in terms of them being able to really take off the way things did in the late 2010s and ever. [00:03:39] Tatiana Cirisano: Mm. I'm also trying to remember now because one of the major things that usually comes up for me talking about like why TikTok was so impactful is how it's such, it was such a big deal that it opened to the for you page instead of like a feed of people, content from people you already know. But in my mind, it was kind of like the first major social media platform to do that. [00:03:59] But was Vine actually the first, I don't remember how the feed worked. Was it people you followed or was it just random? [00:04:05] Dan Runcie: I forget. That's a good point. I forget someone listening probably will ping back and say that, oh, it was this way. But yeah, I completely forget. I feel like I remember there are videos I knew from people that I would go back and follow cause they easily wanted to go watch it. But yeah, I completely forget. And even if it was there, I don't think the algorithm had quite enough content to be able to make that happen. [00:04:27] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, that's true. But yeah, the history is really interesting cuz you had Vine and then Twitter shut it down and there was kind of this void for people that loved the platform not having something similar. And then musically came around, but it wasn't really the same. It was kind of all focused on lip syncing. [00:04:44] It wasn't, you know, people just making random videos. and I feel like it also had kind of a younger audience, like it was more like middle schoolers than high schoolers. And it just kind of didn't have that same, it didn't reach like the critical mass of, no offense to middle schoolers, but like it didn't have that cool factor [00:05:02] so it's interesting like that happened. And then the timing is so important because I feel like we can't ignore the fact that TikTok launched in the US a few years before the pandemic and kind of reached that critical mass of users right when Lockdowns began. so yeah, I'm glad that you started with Vine cause I think the history is really important to look at. [00:05:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think the TikTok piece is unique because before TikTok ends up launching in the US, Instagram and Snapchat have stories, which obviously isn't the same as what we're gonna talk about with Instagram having reels. But that vertical video, and I believe that when Instagram first came out, it was 15 seconds, I believe was the limit. [00:05:44] So there was a bit of that trying to copy what Vine was doing to that extent. But then TikTok comes up with, you know, an entirely new platform. And I feel like the concept of a TikTok post is what then brings you to it's, For You page, and just [00:06:00] having that endless content role. Which a reel is, but a Instagram story or even a Snapchat story I tried to do at points, but never quite got there, which is why Instagram and Facebook more broadly has tried to make a pivot into that. [00:06:15] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. And it was more about like from music's perspective, it was about users engaging with the music that they're fans of like when TikTok first started to blow up in 2020, it was all dance challenges. It was all people kind of putting their own spin on the songs that they loved, and I feel like that's also different from stories and like the other sort of video, sort of short form video, tools that we had before where it was maybe about [00:06:40] sharing music, but it wasn't about actually engaging with it and putting your own spin on it. And I think that was the other thing that TikTok did that was really powerful from the music discovery standpoint, is inviting people to actually put their own spin on the things that they love. [00:06:54] Dan Runcie: Right. There was a culture that was created around the music and around the content [00:07:00] generation that did not exist in those platforms, right? Like to your point, yeah, you could have had music playing while you're sharing some video that you naturally wouldn't have wanted to share on your Instagram feed, but that wasn't the same as trying to do your own rendition of Old Town Road, right? [00:07:17] Tatiana Cirisano: And there weren't trends like TikTok is so trends focused, which is a key reason why songs tend to go viral on the platform. So, yeah. [00:07:26] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And on that note, we should dive into it. So for everyone listening, there's three companies that will do our breakdown on, so TikTok Meta. and YouTube and what they're doing respectively in short form video. And on that note, let's start with TikTok and just highlight some of the pros and cons there. [00:07:43] And I think we talked about a few of them, the cultureyou also talked about just the likelihood of users themselves wanting to engage and create in a way that they wouldn't on others before that, what are some other things that stand out about, like why TikTok has been able to have a strong position here.[00:08:00] [00:08:00] Tatiana Cirisano: I mean, definitely their algorithm, their algorithm is scary good.I know a lot of people will say like, oh, TikTok knows me better than I know myself. And it's true, I get recommendations that are so hyper-specific. and if, you know, it's such a major tool for discovery for that reason. [00:08:16] It's not just showing you things, it's showing you things that you will probably like. So I think, TikTok's algorithm is a huge pro for them. but I also think. at this point, aside from the algorithms, all of these platforms pretty much look the same or have the same user experience. I don't know as much from the creation standpoint in terms of like video editing tools, but from the consumer standpoint, they're all pretty similar. [00:08:40] So I think at that point, the thing that will differentiate you is the culture, and I think TikTok just has a lot more cultural capital than shorts and reels do, maybe because it was first, like so many trends tend to start on TikTok and then trickle down to the other platforms, to the point where I remember like a year ago [00:09:00] or months ago, there were so many reels, users posting TikTok videos that still had the TikTok watermark that reels actually deprioritize them in the algorithm to like try to get people to not do that. [00:09:11] So I think it's something that's hard to measure and can change very quickly, but right now I think the cultural capital is with TikTok and that's a huge pro for them. [00:09:22] Dan Runcie: Right when you're the dominant player, when people are watching videos on other platforms and they're repurposed for yours, that's when you know, we rarely see the opposite of that happen with TikTok and that speaks to it, right? I feel like the other part of where TikTok, I think just stands strong and further proof of that cultural piece is, I think back to the analogy I know that I've said, and others have said about how TikTok is the new MTV and just in terms of its cultural influence on where people find things, and even though it's not the only place that is that artists or, [00:10:00] creators can post short from videos, it's similar in that even back in the MTV days, MTV wasn't the only place that posted and released music videos. You could watch them on VH1, you could watch them on BET. [00:10:13] There were other channels that had it. And while I do think that, at least with BET specifically, there was a culture around there specifically for the black audience and a lot of the people that were interested in those artists themselves. The MTV itself was able to have a bit of this more like mainstream pop rock aspect that also they were able to reach into. [00:10:35] And I think even if you look at VH1, I think that trended a bit older. So even though I think there was still success to be had with some of those other areas, you still saw that MTV ended up still being seen as the dominant player, clearly not to everyone. I think that, as I mentioned, you know, BET still was more relevant to some audiences than others, and I feel like. [00:10:55] There may be some of that. could be true with the short form video aspect too, where I feel [00:11:00] like TikTok is still the dominant player, but are there certain types of users that may be more likely to find success on YouTube shorts or Instagram reels? I don't know if that's necessarily true yet, just because and we can talk about this. [00:11:13] I don't know if we see the same breakdowns there, but that's one thing that I was thinking about as well. Even if you are the main cultural place, are the other areas finding their own folks. [00:11:23] Tatiana Cirisano: Totally. No, and I wanna, think about that question of what platforms benefit, which artists. But you also just reminded me of something else cuz of your comparison to MTV, which is that TikTok considers itself an entertainment platform, not a social platform. And that's so key to me. [00:11:39] And so interesting, like you'll see even in, in news articles and interviews, people will call it social platform and you know, the CEO or whoever's being interviewed will say, no, no, no, no, no, back up because we are an entertainment platform. And that's really different. I think, you know, YouTube shorts is a bit similar because most people don't go to YouTube or social. [00:11:58] They go there to again, like be [00:12:00] entertained. But that's something that pits it sort of, or puts it in a different playing field, I guess, than something like reels because people have usually gone to Instagram to see content from people that they know, to the point where when Instagram like introduced a, you know, a TikTok like feed, a lot of people are like, I don't want this. [00:12:15] I wanna see what my friends are doing. and I think that's changed over time with like influencer culture like I definitely follow a lot of people that I don't know at all. But in general, you know, these other spaces that might try and launch short formm video like Instagram are social platforms that people use for social reasons, and TikTok kind of puts itself in a different playing field by labeling itself as an entertainment platform, which also kind of, I think one of the benefits to that for them is, you know, I think it's part of the reason that people spend so much time on TikTok like there are stats for the average amount of time people spend on the app is ridiculous. It's something like an hour, like nobody does that in one sitting on Instagram, and it's probably because you run out of content. [00:12:57] If you're following a certain number of people, [00:13:00] I run out of, you know, stories to watch or people's content to view. There's only so much you can get out of a social platform like that. But with TikTok, if you're there for entertainment, you can scroll forever. I've done it . So, you know, I think that's a key distinction. [00:13:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a great pro and I think we can talk a little bit more about that when we talk about like who wins out, whether it's, you know, platform versus artist versus company. But, cause I feel like there's a tie in with that too. But that's a great point. What do you think some of the cons are about TikTok? [00:13:28] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. I mean, I think the kind of obvious one is the threat of it being banned. but I don't know that's an interesting one because I feel like it's not talked about that much. It's always kind of an aside, and a potential, but it's unclear whether that could actually happen. what might end up being a bigger inhibitor is just the attitudes that that inspires like if parents are like, oh, the government might is trying to ban TikTok, it must be bad, let me tell my kid they're not allowed to [00:14:00] use it like I think the perceptions that people have about the app and their safety on it, they might be influenced enough by the threat of a band to be scared of using it. [00:14:08] Like I know some people that kind of feel freaked out by it. so I think that could be a real threat or it could be an imagined one, but it could have impact either way. [00:14:17] Dan Runcie: I thought a lot about the threat piece. I think the most likely scenario would be that it's similar to the discussions that we saw three years ago, where is there a US company that would potentially take over TikTok us and could that be the outcome? I know that a lot of that had pretty much died down with the US presidency transfer of power, and those discussions stopped. [00:14:40] But I do feel like if anything I could see that, likely happening as opposed to a full on ban. We'll see though. I mean, because I feel like that could address some of the concerns. Hopefully if that happens, we'll see how whatever company that runs it would go about managing it. But that's how I see that piece of it, particularly playing out.[00:15:00] [00:15:00] The other con that I've thought a lot about is, it's something Lyor Cohen, who runs YouTube, or at least he runs YouTube music, has talked about, he did an interview in, music business worldwide a couple months back, and he has, and I quote, he says, "Short form video that doesn't lead anywhere is the most dangerous thing I've seen in the music business in a long time." [00:15:23] A lot of people are very familiar because it was one of those quotes where he didn't say the company, but everyone knew he was talking about TikTok. And the thing is, many of us know that TikTok is avidly trying to build up has its distribution service, but it's trying to build up its own streaming service so that traffic can go somewhere and that it can do that. [00:15:42] It already has RESO in other countries, but it's actively trying to do that in the us but it still hasn't been able to do that. We know it. These are very cost intensive things to be able to do and do, right? I think it's worth talking about whether or not we think that is as big of a threat as positioned, but I do know that [00:16:00] that is one of the conceptions out there that you have this top of funnel that doesn't directly lead anywhere. [00:16:05] So if you are obviously, record labels and others are tracking the pipeline of TikTok data that then leads to streams and things like that. But is the fact that that is a non-connected platform, at least the way it lives today, is that a risk in your eyes or a con? [00:16:24] Tatiana Cirisano: I think it is a risk. I mean, I think that issue is getting worse. I feel like I brought this up maybe on another podcast we did too, but the fact that the same things that made TikTok so powerful, like having this for you page and having such a good algorithm also means that it's a completely lean back experience. [00:16:42] I don't have to follow anyone on the app. I don't have to take any actions at all. All I have to do is open it and keep scrolling. So there's very little motivation to follow anyone. So that goes for content creators, but it also goes for artists who are trying to, you know, actually build and retain long-term fans, rather [00:17:00] than just having a hit go viral on the platform, maybe it translates to a streaming bump and that's the end of it. [00:17:05] so I think that that is a bit of a threat. there's something else I was gonna say about that too. oh, that I think another point in all of this is, these platforms are no longer just competing for users. They're competing for creators because that's who's actually supplying the content, especially if you're an entertainment platform. [00:17:22] TikTok is kind of like, if Netflix was like, we're not gonna actually create any movies, we're just gonna have users upload their own, you know, like the users are supplying the content, the creators are who they need, and they need to appeal to them. So I think if enough creators get frustrated with feeling like they can't build a following on TikTok, musicians include, they might try migrating to a different service, and maybe if other services can do that better, they'll stay there. [00:17:46] So I think for that reason, it is a risk yeah, it's clear. I think it is something that TikTok is thinking about. [00:17:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah, It does need to be acknowledged. I think as I've thought about this a few ways, I think that the challenge that was presented by [00:18:00] Lyor would imply that there is a higher conversion rate from YouTube shorts to YouTube, and that they have the data to be able to prove that. Theoretically, I do think that that makes sense in terms of absolute numbers though, it would be very interesting to see how many streams absolute it actually leads to, just given how much more massive TikTok is relative to YouTube shorts in terms of just the amount of people actually watching videos on that platform on a regular basis. [00:18:29] And I think the other cod with YouTube, just to underscore something you had said was that, if artists themselves, or whether it's more broadly creators do start to feel like they're being more marginalized on the entertainment platform, where their name gets smaller and smaller and it's less important about who they are, and it's more important that they are just someone that is providing content on this platform, then they may be more likely to go some. [00:18:56] Like a YouTube, which we could transition into now, but go more sort like a [00:19:00] YouTube, which has tried a position itself as more friendly to its business partners as opposed to primarily itself. [00:19:07] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. And I mean, TikTok is, presumably trying to prove right now that it doesn't need music as much, the music industry believes with the kind of experiment they're doing in Australia. So I think that, relationship aspect is really important to all of this. [00:19:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And then one last thought on TikTok too that this just made me think of. I know a couple weeks ago, Snoop Dogg had re-released the Death Row Records catalog, at least the album he owns. Exclusively on TikTok. it was a window wink thing one week before he released it more broadly elsewhere. [00:19:40] While I do think that's probably more likely to be a one-off thing, just because it's a unique scenario where he is an artist, non-major record label that owns his content exclusively, he can choose to do with it what he wants. I'd be interested to see if that changes things and if TikTok does get more involved with exclusivity, especially if it builds out its [00:20:00] own music streaming service. [00:20:03] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, a hundred percent. [00:20:04] Dan Runcie: So we'll see how that one goes. But let's transition over to YouTube now, and I think we talked a little bit about this, but I think some of the pros that it has is that it clearly is YouTube short specifically is clearly a top of the funnel for YouTube. And YouTube already has this algorithm and everything built in there that makes it very easy for creators to be able. [00:20:28] Actually monetize and we've seen many artists be sustainable success stories with how they've tailored their music releases to working on YouTube and be a young boy is one artist that comes to mind there, there are several others and the fact that this can essentially be a way for them to just spread more awareness to others on the platform to then capture more eyeballs and at least of what we've seen, it feels like there is growth, at least of what YouTube has publicly shared. [00:20:54] I believe I saw the most recent number was 30 billion views per day for videos that were being [00:21:00] posted there. So there are a few things that seem to be working in its favor on. [00:21:05] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, and I think the sort of, what Lyor Cohen was talking about, like that ecosystem play that YouTube shorts has, is, it's a major pro for them whereas on TikTok, an artist is kind of posting an isolation on YouTube, maybe their shorts. [00:21:21] It's all on the same platform, and shorts can lead to their music videos or their vlogs on YouTube. And that could, in turn, you know, lead to their music on YouTube music. And I think that ecosystem is really powerful and that's what TikTok would be going after if and when they do launch a Western streaming service. [00:21:39] So for right now, I think that's probably YouTube Short's biggest advantage. And it's biggest sort of, way to like convince creators of its value, convince artists of its value and get them on board. and I think they're clearly trying to do that. [00:21:53] Dan Runcie: Great point. Another one too that that made me think of is another of YouTube's strengths is [00:22:00] they clearly are as I mentioned before, they are artist friendly in that it is a place where you can grow, monetize, you have the people that you're trying to reach there. But I do think that the fact that they're just stronger relationships that they have with the industry overall. [00:22:18] Does tend to play in, I mean, YouTube is very vocal about how much, or YouTube music specifically is very vocal about how much money it pays out to the music industry. It's made it a clear goal that it wants to surpass Spotify to be the platform that generates the most for that. And I think a lot of that transfers as well to on the artist side, whereas you mentioned a platform like TikTok, trying to be less reliant on music. [00:22:40] YouTube is actually trying to double down more than that, and the fact that there's just more stability in general. Obviously TikTok is the opposite of this, where we're still not sure will there be a band, will there be another company owning it? But with YouTube, it's the rare platform that 18 years into its [00:23:00] existence, people are still discovered it, people are still finding ways to be able to tap in. It competes with so many other entertainment platforms in so many ways that whether it's for attention, for content, for revenue, at least from a revenue perspective, it's not too far behind Netflix, if not in the same category, and it's all free content and the international reach, there's a lot there, and I feel like that's stability and that longevity, there's something to be said there. [00:23:29] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, that is something that I was gonna bring up too, is just how massive and far reaching YouTube's audiences. it's, you know, one of the most global platforms and one of the top like, the platforms that have the most penetration, I guess is how we put it in the data terms of, you know, weekly active users, globally. [00:23:48] And a question that kind of comes out of that for me though is like, how much overlap there is, I guess between the YouTube audience and the YouTube shorts audience. and I don't really know the answer to that. I mean, you would think that [00:24:00] a lot of habitual YouTube users trickle down to using shorts, but I'm not sure. [00:24:06] I think YouTube is, a lot of people use, YouTube on a desktop or on a smart tv, not necessarily on the app, on their phones, which is kind of the main place for using shorts. I think Shorts has, I know actually that Shorts has, a younger user base than YouTube as a whole, which also makes sense cuz YouTube just has more users in general. [00:24:24] But that's like an open question that I have too is how much overlap there is there, because that would impact this ecosystem strategy that they have. [00:24:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good con to highlight and I feel like. ties into with just user behavior on the platform too. TikTok, there already is this mind thought of this is the place where I can just scroll and get lost for hours. And on YouTube, if you're using the app on the phone, it's a separate tab that you have to click into to get to shorts because they're all at the bottom, whether it's shorts or regular videos. [00:24:55] You click into shorts and then you hope that it's a similar type of experience. The [00:25:00] difference though, is that YouTube's algorithm is very YouTube overall, that algorithm is very much based, a bit more on YouTube itself is now the second largest search engine we have, and at least from a YouTube itself standpoint, there's a bit more of a likelihood of it giving you repetitive content and repetitive information of, if you've seen one thing, you've probably seen all the things from this type of niche that you're interested in. Almost in the same way that Spotify can do that, because I know that's a very streaming thing to give you so much of what you already know to keep you sticky. But sure, from video it's different especially if you're trying to optimize from an entertainment perspective. You're trying to keep up with the new trends. You're trying to see what's there. This is your opportunity to just scroll and do that. So can YouTube shorts optimized for that as well, because optimizing for that type of algorithm is different than optimizing for the destination music streaming service, especially from a consumer [00:26:00] behavior perspective. [00:26:01] Tatiana Cirisano: No, and, as you mentioned before with Vine, if you have a smaller user base, you also just don't have as much content to continue serving so that the user can scroll forever. You don't have as many niches to go into like, I think part of the reason TikTok works so well is because since it has. [00:26:16] like what does it have? Like a billion users more. since it has so many users, every possible niche is on there. So whatever hyper-specific thing you're into, TikTok can serve you the content for that. But I don't know if that's something that these other platforms maybe reels more than shorts, but I don't know if these other platforms really have access to that level of niche. [00:26:36] Dan Runcie: That's a good point. And on that note, let's talk about Facebook and Meta and everything that they're doing, both with reels on the Instagram side and reels on the Facebook side. I feel like one of the pros there that works out for them is that, it is so well monetized just from an overall business perspective, what they're able to do from ads and how they're able to generate that a bit more so on Facebook than [00:27:00] Instagram, but still they're able to monetize that quite well, and I think that that does work into their favor because at the end of the date, this is obviously less about the artist and the industry perspective, but more from the company perspective. [00:27:14] Your ability to make that have a high ROI is strong. And at least from recent reports we've heard from Mark Zuckerberg, whether it's at earnings calls or some of the Meta town Hall meetings, it does seem like reels both on Facebook and Instagram are a growing source of eyeballs. And even though that is less money now relative to the more established streams that would only naturally grow over. [00:27:37] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. you know, you're reminding me too that Facebook did roll out that ad revenue sharing program for creators. and for the music industry for rights holders, which I don't think that that's available on reels yet. I've seen some reports that it could be in the future, but, you know, that is what it seems like the music industry is trying to get TikTok to agree to. [00:27:58] so, you know, I would imagine that's a better [00:28:00] deal, you know, from the music side of things, and that's definitely important to all of us. [00:28:03] Dan Runcie: For sure. Any other pros from Instagram or Facebook? [00:28:08] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, I think, they already have huge built-in user bases, which is, useful. They're kind of, they don't have to ask users to download a new app or like open a new tab the way, or I guess it's the same as YouTube shorts, but it feels a bit more built into what users already doing on the platform. [00:28:28] But that kind of also leads me to another point that I've been thinking about with this is, it's so interesting how like TikTok is an app, but on these other platforms it's a feature. Like TikTok is a standalone app for short form video, but when you go on Instagram reels, it's just another feature in the toolbox. [00:28:43] Kind of similar to how, you know, when Snapchat had stories, originally had stories, Instagram just added that as a feature and kind of stole the concept away. And it was, it worked because it was just another tool in the toolbox for its users. I don't know if that's a pro or a con, but it's an interesting [00:29:00] differentiator to me. [00:29:00] they're positioning this as just another tool. I don't know. [00:29:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think you maybe think of two things there, so I think that new features like that do work best when there is a audience that is either searching for this answer or searching for this type of solution that's already tapped in with how they consume and how they naturally engage with the platform. And I think that's been one of the differentiating factors between the copycat attempts from Facebook that work and the ones that don't work. [00:29:31] Like why I think that Instagram stories took off in a ways is because, In a way, even more so than it did for a Snapchat, is that you had this core group of people, influencers, who were already using Instagram, but there's just so much pressure to post these perfect photos on the main feed. So stories helped, co helped solve that, and it helped solve that in a way that. [00:29:54] even more so for that target audience on Instagram, because Snapchat didn't really have as many [00:30:00] influencers, at least to the same extent. Instagram still had a much larger group. So it's like that group that our, the group stole the feature bin, that feature was even more relevant cuz they had more of the target audience than you ever did. [00:30:11] That was already relevant to like, how they were going about it in a way where I feel like some of Facebook's other things like facebook dating for instance, that they've like started and I don't even know if it's still going on. But sure, you have all the active users that naturally would want to, like most of the people using Match or Tinder probably already have Facebook accounts, but that isn't like tapped into like how they naturally use the platform. [00:30:34] And I bring that up in this case because I think that reels is a behavior that is more closely aligned to the Instagram experience than shorts is to the YouTube experience because there was already a mindless nature to some extent of how Instagram was being used. Sure, I know there's differences based on to the point you mentioned earlier of people saying, Hey, I wanna see [00:31:00] my friends. [00:31:00] Not necessarily all this to other stuff, but there's still a mindlessness to seeing your friends or just scrolling through the [00:31:07] feed and. [00:31:08] Tatiana Cirisano: that's a really point. [00:31:09] Dan Runcie: And YouTube didn't really have that scrolling through the feed dynamic. Sure, the algorithm could suggest things, but the algorithm suggested things in a way that was almost closer to Spotify's algorithm suggesting things than it was to Instagram. [00:31:21] suggest you the next thing. [00:31:23] Tatiana Cirisano: That's such a good point. And it reminds me about how I was saying before, like people on Instagram will run out of stuff from their friends to look at. So maybe reels is the solution, maybe it's like going back to what you're saying about like solving a user need. Maybe it's you run out of things from your friends. [00:31:40] Here's reels where you can scroll mindlessly forever and see content from people you don't know. I don't know. That's a great point. [00:31:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, thank you. It's something I've thought about too, because I feel like, yeah, running outta content is clearly a thing, cuz I feel like we've all had those moments on Instagram where, we're taping this now, it's almost March. You'll see posts [00:32:00] from the end of December that come through on something and you're like, wait, what? [00:32:03] Why am I getting this now? Like this isn't even timely anymore, but it's something that went viral then. And that obviously isn't something that happens on TikTok in that same way. [00:32:11] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, you you don't get a thing on TikTok that says you're up to date. When I get that on Instagram, like , when I get that on Instagram, I'm like, that's how I know I've spent too much time on this app. It's the equivalent of Netflix going, are you still [00:32:23] Dan Runcie: Right. You still there? [00:32:25] Tatiana Cirisano: you don't get that on TikTok if you got that on TikTok, like I need, someone needs to help you. [00:32:32] That's such a good point. That's such a good point. So yeah, [00:32:35] Dan Runcie: Some of the cons, I will say just with reels, both from Facebook and with Instagram, though a lot of ads and a lot of ads, and this is part of the double-edged sword about how well it's monetized, right? But a lot of ads that I don't hear people complaining as much about ads on the other platforms. [00:32:53] Tatiana Cirisano: Mm-hmm. , that's something, I hadn't even thought about here, and you're totally right. many more ads on those platforms for sure.[00:33:00] [00:33:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think too, just given that point I mentioned about influencers being a core demographic for Instagram overall because that's been the core audience there. How does that translate necessarily as much to artists? And I know that there's some overlap there with some artists who very much position themselves as influencers. [00:33:18] But if you're an artist who really isn't about influencing in that way, is ls going to be as effective, relatively speaking, compared to some of the other short form video platforms. [00:33:29] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, and I think that also gets to the, cultures that are different on these platforms like I think similar to what you were saying about how Instagram influencers like stories because they could be more off the cuff. I think reels still has a feeling of being a bit more professional and less casual than TikTok. [00:33:47] TikTok feels a bit more casual, off the cuff weird. You don't get as much weird content on Instagram reels. It's a lot more curated and, professionalized. and it's interesting because I actually had, as one of my [00:34:00] pros to talk about something that I've just, I don't know if this is still true, but something that I've heard from marketers, music marketers in the past is that, Instagram just has more trust with brands than TikTok and other platforms that are new because they've been using it for so long. [00:34:12] they know what the deal is like. It just has, better relationships in that respect. but if that's also leading to more ads on the platform, then it's kind of a pro and a con. [00:34:21] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. That's a great point. The brand piece too, and I know that TikTok is clearly trying to do it with some of the reports they've put out some of the positioning trying to get itself to be seen as a home for brands to be able to tap in. But Instagram has owned that space for quite some time. [00:34:37] Tatiana Cirisano: Exactly. [00:34:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah, any other pros and cons on reels before we move? [00:34:42] Tatiana Cirisano: Well, I guess one other thing I'll say, this kind of applies to everything, but you've made me think during this conversation. I would love to know what percentage of people on each of these platforms are lurking versus also posting content. cuz I think that would impact our idea of like how deep the trove of content can go and how that impacts the [00:35:00] algorithm and the niches you can get into likeI sort of have a theory that because TikTok is a bit more casual and off the cuff, it might have more of a, percentage of its users are posting content. Like I've never, I don't think I would ever make a reel. It feels very influencer to me, but I would post a TikTok cuz whatever, like, it just feels a little bit more casual. [00:35:17] So I think that's an interesting question to me is what percentage are creators and what percentage are just like passive users? [00:35:25] Dan Runcie: That is a really good question. Yeah, it would be good to see that, right? Because I feel like TikTok kind of has two things going forward one, it does seem less formal from a content release perspective of just being able to share it. But on the other hand too, anytime you get into the absolute numbers of over 1 billion, approaching 2 billion monthly active users specifically on this feature of the short form, you know, For You page, it does lend itself to likelihood. [00:35:56] Each time you go outside of that like concentric circle, I feel like it's a higher [00:36:00] likelihood of attracting more lurkers than hardcore users. But it'll be great data to be able to see. That's a really good point. [00:36:06] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. We'll have to put that in a survey. [00:36:09] Dan Runcie: I know, I know. We'll have to get those answers somewhere, but so now that we've talked about each of these, TikTok is the company that is clearly in the lead, both from a reach perspective, how long it's been established with this particular platform itself, and outside of the potential government sanctions or anything there, is there anything that you could see that could change the likelihood of that continuing relative to these other two services? [00:36:34] YouTube shorts and Instagram and Facebook reels. [00:36:37] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, the thing that immediate. Comes to mind for me is it's licenses with music and its relationships with music knowing that those are negotiations that are happening as we speak. I think if TikTok were to suddenly, I guess this is the thing that they're kind of trying to test in Australia, but if TikTok were to suddenly lose a lot of popular music, what would that do to the platform? [00:36:59] [00:37:00] so I think that's the first question that comes to mind for me, just from, you know, music industry stand [00:37:06] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I hear that. I could see that I thought about this too, and I had a tough time thinking about something that could really shift things. I do wonder about, If monetization itself and revenue generation does become an issue for TikTok moving forward, how that can shape the nature of the experience of the platform, right? Because meta and Google being YouTube's parent company are both so much more established. They've been around for years generating revenue at a pretty steady clip. And while at least the way TikTok is right now, it does have the advantage of being under bite dance, which has several, you know, has a lot of money coming in as well. [00:37:49] I do wonder how profitable that will be. And obviously we saw how meta adapted to try to make money, where we're complaining about how [00:38:00] many ads there would be on the platform, could any potential changes there from the need to get more money, change that user experience in a way that could decline the user experience for this core demographic. [00:38:12] So that's definitely a risk for TikTok. [00:38:14] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. And also kind of going off that, if any of these platforms were to provide a much better way somehow for the creators on the platform to earn money from it, and then the creators were to go to that platform, that's where the audiences would be. So I think that creators actually have a lot of leverage right now, with that, because I think you can tell that all of these platforms are kind of competing to be the most sort of creator friendly, TikTok is updating, its fund, its creator fund. after getting a lot of complaints about how it was working, YouTube shorts, I think announced an ad revenue share program. So I think that could shake things up is I, I don't know what it would be, but if one of these platforms had ways superior monetization tools for the [00:39:00] creators, I could see the creators migrating there and their audience is following. [00:39:03] Dan Runcie: Right. Yep. Good point. They all have funds to some extent, but you clearly need more than money if everyone else has it too, right? Like how is it gonna be used in an effective way? So it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. [00:39:16] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. But at the same time, it's like, even if another, say that another platform say that YouTube Shorts had way better monetization for creators, but it still has a smaller audience. Will creators migrate there and hope that their audiences follow them? Or do they feel like they, it's better to have the larger audience for, you know, leveraging brand deals and things that are outside of the app like. [00:39:36] Dan Runcie: True. Yeah. [00:39:37] Tatiana Cirisano: I don't know what would be the better deal. [00:39:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, that's a good point because I think as we saw in the Spotify era, it was very easy for artists that didn't care about streaming and Spotify to ignore it and be very proud about them ignoring streaming back [00:39:52] Tatiana Cirisano: Exactly. Yeah. [00:39:53] Dan Runcie: 16. But all those artists are now on Spotify because they were like, can't beat 'em join them pretty much. [00:39:59] Tatiana Cirisano: [00:40:00] Right. Like will TikTok always be the place where you can't afford not to be? [00:40:04] Dan Runcie: Yep, exactly. [00:40:06] Tatiana Cirisano: I mean, not forever. that's the thing about social media. nothing stays. It's popular, I don't think forever, but you know, how long can it last? I don't know. [00:40:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, we'll see. We'll see. All right, so a few, quicker questions here as we're getting to the tail line butwanna break this down for which of these platform do you think is in the strongest position for each of these groups? Artists, record labels, and, the parent company, the company itself overall. [00:40:30] So let's start with artists. Which of these companies do you think creates the most value for artists? And let me not just say companies be clear. Let me talk which short form video platform. [00:40:41] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. Well, it depends how you define value, I guess. Because if you were saying for having a hit or influencing streaming numbers? I would say TikTok getting discovered, I would say TikTok, but if you're saying for developing a [00:41:00] sustaining long-term fan base, no matter what the size is, I might say YouTube shorts because of that ecosystem that it has. [00:41:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah. [00:41:09] Tatiana Cirisano: yeah. [00:41:09] Dan Runcie: I think that's a good way to frame it cuz I TikTok down as well, just because of the absolute numbers part of the algorithm, how many people you could reach. But I think that your per user approach or even the ability to do conversion of actual fandom. YouTube probably has a bit more tight in there. [00:41:27] It's kind of like a short term versus long term [00:41:29] Yeah, definitely. And it's like, okay, do you want this absolute number or do you want who you're most actually able to have as a real super fan down the road? [00:41:39] Yeah.What about record labels? [00:41:40] Tatiana Cirisano: That's a good one. Because I mean, we know that by far, YouTube as a whole is generating more for the music industry for record labels than any of these platforms. But when it comes to shorts, I'm not so sure it might be TikTok [00:41:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah, [00:41:56] Tatiana Cirisano: in terms of the bottom, [00:41:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's tough. I was stuck [00:42:00] on that one too. I think my answer still leaned YouTube, but that's probably thinking about, A the overall tie in and the clear [00:42:07] connection to have it feed into the broader video platform, but then also what it seems like Leo's goals to make that be a clear thing. [00:42:16] So that was the thought there. And then most value it created for its parent company. Which one would I be saying. [00:42:24] Tatiana Cirisano: okay, so we have TikTok bite Dance, YouTube, Google, Instagram, Facebook. that's a really good, that's a tough one. [00:42:32] Dan Runcie: I went with meta for this one because I [00:42:34] Tatiana Cirisano: That's where I was leaning. That's where I was [00:42:36] Dan Runcie: it's. , I think it's the most well monetized, at least from what a social media user is able to do and what they're able to generate from a sole Facebook user on average is so much higher than any of these other platforms. And the fact that this could potentially be a funnel into that is strong. [00:42:55] And I know a lot of people may roll their eyes, if you're a certain generation the thought of a [00:43:00] Facebook reel even as opposed to an Instagram reel. But there's an audience for it and there's a reason why it's there. And that may not line up with contemporary artists, but that may line up with some, you know, other established artists that are clearly trying to reach that base. [00:43:12] So I feel like there's something there. [00:43:14] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, I think that makes sense. That's where I was leaning to. These are good questions. [00:43:18] Dan Runcie: And then I just to close things out, we talked a little bit about this earlier. Well, you touched on this a little bit earlier, but will there be a new form of consumption, content consumption that could take over as the place for music discovery and its top of funnel in the next five years? [00:43:35] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, that's a great question. What did I touch on earlier that related to. [00:43:39] Dan Runcie: You were mentioning that there's a new social media platform like every few years that like comes through. So even though TikTok is in like a [00:43:46] Tatiana Cirisano: yeah. [00:43:46] Dan Runcie: today, we don't know what it's gonna look like in the future. [00:43:49] Tatiana Cirisano: So I have a couple answers to this. One thing that I've been really, it's so funny, every time we do this, I always have a timely report coming out on the topic. I don't know how you have like [00:44:00] this somehow, this telepathy to know this, but I was wor I'm working on this report right now that's very related, which is about how potentially the next step for all of this, for music and social media could be, not only are you opening TikTok and adding, you know, a Taylor Swift song to your post, but you're also remixing the song, or you're adding your own vocals or you're actually changing it. So going a step further in what I was saying about, users engaging, creating their own spin on the music that they're fans of, they would be actually changing the song as well. [00:44:33] Dan Runcie: you wrote about this recently, right? About like [00:44:35] Tatiana Cirisano: yeah. [00:44:36] Dan Runcie: and like, and music having its Instagram moment. [00:44:38] Tatiana Cirisano: Yes, exactly. So the same way that Instagram brought kind of mainstream photography tools to the average consumer, and TikTok did the same thing with videography. when will music be part of that? When will music making and recreation tools actually be part of these platforms? And when I've talked to people who know way more about this than I do, and said, you know, why hasn't [00:45:00] this happened? [00:45:00] A lot of it is about how hard it is to simplify music making into a mobile screen, let alone like, put it on top of a social app. and that's why, you know, I had the AI tie into my blog post is because, there are companies that are using AI to simplify that process and make this possible. So like Snapchat is a company that is like semi-related to short form video that we haven't talked about, and they have an integration right now with a company called Mini Beats, where you can remix the song that you're putting on your post. so I think that's not necessarily like, it's not a new platform, but it's a new way of consuming like I think creation as a form of consumption is like probably the next step. [00:45:44] Dan Runcie: And that ends up being the catalyst for how so many of these platforms grow. We talked about TikTok and just how it was able to attract this group of music in some way was the backbone for user generated content. And then it just attracted so much, and everyone's talked about what AI looks [00:46:00] like, I was watching some video the other day about some guy that looked and sounded nothing like Kendrick Lamar had this voice alteration thing that made him sound just like him. [00:46:09] And while it's not quite AI, I think there's a lot of elements there. So whoever taps that and then that can then be the launchpad for the next thing. Something like that could easily overtake and become the next dominant social media player. But we'll see. It'll take a couple years to get to 1.5 billion [00:46:26] Tatiana Cirisano: Probably more than five. [00:46:28] Dan Runcie: probably five. [00:46:29] Tatiana Cirisano: probably more than five just because of licensing really. But, I mean, I think the interesting thing to note there is this type of behavior is kind of already happening like I notice a lot of with sped up songs and how the music industry actually adopted that after sped up clips were going viral on TikTok, like users are already modifying the songs and then uploading those modified versions. [00:46:49] So imagine if that capability was actually part of the platform itself. [00:46:52] Dan Runcie: Right, right. It's like everyone saw DJ Screw make a, you know, huge influence with this for this chopped and screwed music. [00:47:00] So it's only about time that you make it easy to make that accessible for users. [00:47:04] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. So we'll see. [00:47:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So we'll see. But Tati, pleasure as always. Thanks for coming on and yeah, we'll definitely have to stay tapped in with what you have coming up next on this topic. [00:47:14] So relevant to this discussion. [00:47:15] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, thanks for having me again. Always a pleasure. [00:47:18] Thu, 23 Mar 2023 09:00:00 -0000 The Short-Form Video Wars: TikTok vs Shorts vs Reels (with Tati Cirisano) full Dan Runcie Short-form video has exploded in popularity the past three years, buoyed by TikTok. Copycat apps and features are now the norm across social media sites — Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, and Instagram. MIDiA analyst Tati Cirisano joins me on this episode to break down the ongoing war between short-form video’s main players.  The music industry is certainly keeping a close eye on the battle. Short-form video has been a boon for music discovery. Though, many music execs would also argue music has played a big factor in the rise of these platforms, and the industry wants to better monetize that. Tati and I covered all this and more on the show. Here’s everything we hit on: [02:59] Vine paved the way for short-form video [05:56] TikTok filled void in social media [06:53] Factors behind TikTok’s success [10:19] TikTok is an entertainment platform, not social  [13:20] Potential pitfalls for TikTok  [23:10] YouTube’s biggest advantages  [25:53] Overlap between YouTube’s short-form and long-form audiences [29:37] Facebook and Instagram Reels are picking up steam [35:19] Instagram Reels more natural to the platform than YT Shorts [35:35] Meta’s advertising is both a pro and a con [36:39] Active creator vs. passive watcher user bases [38:35] In what scenario does TikTok lose top spot in short-form video war? [41:50] Best platform for artists? [43:08] Best platform for record labels? [44:05] Best monetized platform? [47:11] Will there be a new form of content consumption in the next five years? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Tati Cirisano, @tatianacirisano This episode was brought to you by trac. Learn more about how artists can bring web2 and web3 together for their fans at trac.co  Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Tatiana Cirisano: One of my pros to talk about something that I've just, I don't know if this is still true, but something that I've heard from marketers, music marketers in the past is that, Instagram just has more trust with brands than TikTok and other platforms that are new because they've been using it for so long. [00:00:13] They know what the deal is like. It just has, better relationships in that respect. but if that's also leading to more ads on the platform, then it's kind of a pro and a con. [00:00:42] Dan Runcie: All right, today we have a jam packed episode that is about the short form video wars, which platform will come out on top. And I'm joined by none other than Tati Cirisano from Video Research. Welcome. [00:00:55] Tatiana Cirisano: Thanks Dan. Good to be back. Thanks for entertaining another rant of mine, [00:01:00] Dan Runcie: No, this is good. And with what you write about what you cover, you're the perfect person to have this conversation with. There has been so much focus as anyone listening to this podcast, who knows about the influence of short form video, what it does for discovery, for music, for artists, how record labels and all these companies are tackling it. [00:01:19] Now we have several companies that are vying for that spot with similar but different products. But before we jump into TikTok, YouTube, and Instagram, I feel like we gotta give props where it is and give a shout out to Vine because I don't know if we were to be here if it weren't for Vine paving the way, so, oh, gone too soon. [00:01:41] Tatiana Cirisano: you're giving me flashbacks to the Water Malone guy. I don't know if anyone else is gonna remember that, but the specific things that went viral on that platform. Oh God,yeah. We have to give the shout out to Vine. [00:01:53] Dan Runcie: It was the perfect example of constraints, breeding, creativity, six, seven, second videos, and people had whole narratives of storytelling there. It was so unique to see what people were able to do. I feel like at its peak I saw it was 200 million monthly active users, which obviously is a drop in the bucket compared to the services we're about to talk about. [00:02:17] But at that moment, that felt huge. It really was the platform. And obviously I know that Twitter had other objectives and things there, but. It's almost like a little too early as well. I just don't know if culture was like right there. And even music itself with artists, I feel like there was a lot of influencers, but there's a few artists, but not as many that really tapped in where it was really a huge discovery platform. [00:02:41] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, and I think also like people weren't so comfortable with creating content at that time, or it wasn't something that was like so readily available. Like now I feel like every teenager just kind of create, thinks of creating content as, you know, just part of the social toolbox. Or maybe they want to be a content creator and that's, you know, that's like a sort of a new aspiration. [00:03:02] But I think at the time of Vine, maybe that's another reason it didn't pop off, is it wasn't like the consumer behavior wasn't there. There were some people that loved to make videos, but I think most people were just watching. [00:03:11] Dan Runcie: Right, and I feel like too, the people that really popped off on that platform, They never quite got as big as some of the people that are on the platforms. We're gonna talk about, thinking about whether, you know, you mentioned someone where thinking about Alphacat or like King Bach, some of the others that were big there, and I know they had moments, but again, it was almost a little bit ahead of its time in terms of them being able to really take off the way things did in the late 2010s and ever. [00:03:39] Tatiana Cirisano: Mm. I'm also trying to remember now because one of the major things that usually comes up for me talking about like why TikTok was so impactful is how it's such, it was such a big deal that it opened to the for you page instead of like a feed of people, content from people you already know. But in my mind, it was kind of like the first major social media platform to do that. [00:03:59] But was Vine actually the first, I don't remember how the feed worked. Was it people you followed or was it just random? [00:04:05] Dan Runcie: I forget. That's a good point. I forget someone listening probably will ping back and say that, oh, it was this way. But yeah, I completely forget. I feel like I remember there are videos I knew from people that I would go back and follow cause they easily wanted to go watch it. But yeah, I completely forget. And even if it was there, I don't think the algorithm had quite enough content to be able to make that happen. [00:04:27] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, that's true. But yeah, the history is really interesting cuz you had Vine and then Twitter shut it down and there was kind of this void for people that loved the platform not having something similar. And then musically came around, but it wasn't really the same. It was kind of all focused on lip syncing. [00:04:44] It wasn't, you know, people just making random videos. and I feel like it also had kind of a younger audience, like it was more like middle schoolers than high schoolers. And it just kind of didn't have that same, it didn't reach like the critical mass of, no offense to middle schoolers, but like it didn't have that cool factor [00:05:02] so it's interesting like that happened. And then the timing is so important because I feel like we can't ignore the fact that TikTok launched in the US a few years before the pandemic and kind of reached that critical mass of users right when Lockdowns began. so yeah, I'm glad that you started with Vine cause I think the history is really important to look at. [00:05:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think the TikTok piece is unique because before TikTok ends up launching in the US, Instagram and Snapchat have stories, which obviously isn't the same as what we're gonna talk about with Instagram having reels. But that vertical video, and I believe that when Instagram first came out, it was 15 seconds, I believe was the limit. [00:05:44] So there was a bit of that trying to copy what Vine was doing to that extent. But then TikTok comes up with, you know, an entirely new platform. And I feel like the concept of a TikTok post is what then brings you to it's, For You page, and just [00:06:00] having that endless content role. Which a reel is, but a Instagram story or even a Snapchat story I tried to do at points, but never quite got there, which is why Instagram and Facebook more broadly has tried to make a pivot into that. [00:06:15] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. And it was more about like from music's perspective, it was about users engaging with the music that they're fans of like when TikTok first started to blow up in 2020, it was all dance challenges. It was all people kind of putting their own spin on the songs that they loved, and I feel like that's also different from stories and like the other sort of video, sort of short form video, tools that we had before where it was maybe about [00:06:40] sharing music, but it wasn't about actually engaging with it and putting your own spin on it. And I think that was the other thing that TikTok did that was really powerful from the music discovery standpoint, is inviting people to actually put their own spin on the things that they love. [00:06:54] Dan Runcie: Right. There was a culture that was created around the music and around the content [00:07:00] generation that did not exist in those platforms, right? Like to your point, yeah, you could have had music playing while you're sharing some video that you naturally wouldn't have wanted to share on your Instagram feed, but that wasn't the same as trying to do your own rendition of Old Town Road, right? [00:07:17] Tatiana Cirisano: And there weren't trends like TikTok is so trends focused, which is a key reason why songs tend to go viral on the platform. So, yeah. [00:07:26] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And on that note, we should dive into it. So for everyone listening, there's three companies that will do our breakdown on, so TikTok Meta. and YouTube and what they're doing respectively in short form video. And on that note, let's start with TikTok and just highlight some of the pros and cons there. [00:07:43] And I think we talked about a few of them, the cultureyou also talked about just the likelihood of users themselves wanting to engage and create in a way that they wouldn't on others before that, what are some other things that stand out about, like why TikTok has been able to have a strong position here.[00:08:00] [00:08:00] Tatiana Cirisano: I mean, definitely their algorithm, their algorithm is scary good.I know a lot of people will say like, oh, TikTok knows me better than I know myself. And it's true, I get recommendations that are so hyper-specific. and if, you know, it's such a major tool for discovery for that reason. [00:08:16] It's not just showing you things, it's showing you things that you will probably like. So I think, TikTok's algorithm is a huge pro for them. but I also think. at this point, aside from the algorithms, all of these platforms pretty much look the same or have the same user experience. I don't know as much from the creation standpoint in terms of like video editing tools, but from the consumer standpoint, they're all pretty similar. [00:08:40] So I think at that point, the thing that will differentiate you is the culture, and I think TikTok just has a lot more cultural capital than shorts and reels do, maybe because it was first, like so many trends tend to start on TikTok and then trickle down to the other platforms, to the point where I remember like a year ago [00:09:00] or months ago, there were so many reels, users posting TikTok videos that still had the TikTok watermark that reels actually deprioritize them in the algorithm to like try to get people to not do that. [00:09:11] So I think it's something that's hard to measure and can change very quickly, but right now I think the cultural capital is with TikTok and that's a huge pro for them. [00:09:22] Dan Runcie: Right when you're the dominant player, when people are watching videos on other platforms and they're repurposed for yours, that's when you know, we rarely see the opposite of that happen with TikTok and that speaks to it, right? I feel like the other part of where TikTok, I think just stands strong and further proof of that cultural piece is, I think back to the analogy I know that I've said, and others have said about how TikTok is the new MTV and just in terms of its cultural influence on where people find things, and even though it's not the only place that is that artists or, [00:10:00] creators can post short from videos, it's similar in that even back in the MTV days, MTV wasn't the only place that posted and released music videos. You could watch them on VH1, you could watch them on BET. [00:10:13] There were other channels that had it. And while I do think that, at least with BET specifically, there was a culture around there specifically for the black audience and a lot of the people that were interested in those artists themselves. The MTV itself was able to have a bit of this more like mainstream pop rock aspect that also they were able to reach into. [00:10:35] And I think even if you look at VH1, I think that trended a bit older. So even though I think there was still success to be had with some of those other areas, you still saw that MTV ended up still being seen as the dominant player, clearly not to everyone. I think that, as I mentioned, you know, BET still was more relevant to some audiences than others, and I feel like. [00:10:55] There may be some of that. could be true with the short form video aspect too, where I feel [00:11:00] like TikTok is still the dominant player, but are there certain types of users that may be more likely to find success on YouTube shorts or Instagram reels? I don't know if that's necessarily true yet, just because and we can talk about this. [00:11:13] I don't know if we see the same breakdowns there, but that's one thing that I was thinking about as well. Even if you are the main cultural place, are the other areas finding their own folks. [00:11:23] Tatiana Cirisano: Totally. No, and I wanna, think about that question of what platforms benefit, which artists. But you also just reminded me of something else cuz of your comparison to MTV, which is that TikTok considers itself an entertainment platform, not a social platform. And that's so key to me. [00:11:39] And so interesting, like you'll see even in, in news articles and interviews, people will call it social platform and you know, the CEO or whoever's being interviewed will say, no, no, no, no, no, back up because we are an entertainment platform. And that's really different. I think, you know, YouTube shorts is a bit similar because most people don't go to YouTube or social. [00:11:58] They go there to again, like be [00:12:00] entertained. But that's something that pits it sort of, or puts it in a different playing field, I guess, than something like reels because people have usually gone to Instagram to see content from people that they know, to the point where when Instagram like introduced a, you know, a TikTok like feed, a lot of people are like, I don't want this. [00:12:15] I wanna see what my friends are doing. and I think that's changed over time with like influencer culture like I definitely follow a lot of people that I don't know at all. But in general, you know, these other spaces that might try and launch short formm video like Instagram are social platforms that people use for social reasons, and TikTok kind of puts itself in a different playing field by labeling itself as an entertainment platform, which also kind of, I think one of the benefits to that for them is, you know, I think it's part of the reason that people spend so much time on TikTok like there are stats for the average amount of time people spend on the app is ridiculous. It's something like an hour, like nobody does that in one sitting on Instagram, and it's probably because you run out of content. [00:12:57] If you're following a certain number of people, [00:13:00] I run out of, you know, stories to watch or people's content to view. There's only so much you can get out of a social platform like that. But with TikTok, if you're there for entertainment, you can scroll forever. I've done it . So, you know, I think that's a key distinction. [00:13:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a great pro and I think we can talk a little bit more about that when we talk about like who wins out, whether it's, you know, platform versus artist versus company. But, cause I feel like there's a tie in with that too. But that's a great point. What do you think some of the cons are about TikTok? [00:13:28] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. I mean, I think the kind of obvious one is the threat of it being banned. but I don't know that's an interesting one because I feel like it's not talked about that much. It's always kind of an aside, and a potential, but it's unclear whether that could actually happen. what might end up being a bigger inhibitor is just the attitudes that that inspires like if parents are like, oh, the government might is trying to ban TikTok, it must be bad, let me tell my kid they're not allowed to [00:14:00] use it like I think the perceptions that people have about the app and their safety on it, they might be influenced enough by the threat of a band to be scared of using it. [00:14:08] Like I know some people that kind of feel freaked out by it. so I think that could be a real threat or it could be an imagined one, but it could have impact either way. [00:14:17] Dan Runcie: I thought a lot about the threat piece. I think the most likely scenario would be that it's similar to the discussions that we saw three years ago, where is there a US company that would potentially take over TikTok us and could that be the outcome? I know that a lot of that had pretty much died down with the US presidency transfer of power, and those discussions stopped. [00:14:40] But I do feel like if anything I could see that, likely happening as opposed to a full on ban. We'll see though. I mean, because I feel like that could address some of the concerns. Hopefully if that happens, we'll see how whatever company that runs it would go about managing it. But that's how I see that piece of it, particularly playing out.[00:15:00] [00:15:00] The other con that I've thought a lot about is, it's something Lyor Cohen, who runs YouTube, or at least he runs YouTube music, has talked about, he did an interview in, music business worldwide a couple months back, and he has, and I quote, he says, "Short form video that doesn't lead anywhere is the most dangerous thing I've seen in the music business in a long time." [00:15:23] A lot of people are very familiar because it was one of those quotes where he didn't say the company, but everyone knew he was talking about TikTok. And the thing is, many of us know that TikTok is avidly trying to build up has its distribution service, but it's trying to build up its own streaming service so that traffic can go somewhere and that it can do that. [00:15:42] It already has RESO in other countries, but it's actively trying to do that in the us but it still hasn't been able to do that. We know it. These are very cost intensive things to be able to do and do, right? I think it's worth talking about whether or not we think that is as big of a threat as positioned, but I do know that [00:16:00] that is one of the conceptions out there that you have this top of funnel that doesn't directly lead anywhere. [00:16:05] So if you are obviously, record labels and others are tracking the pipeline of TikTok data that then leads to streams and things like that. But is the fact that that is a non-connected platform, at least the way it lives today, is that a risk in your eyes or a con? [00:16:24] Tatiana Cirisano: I think it is a risk. I mean, I think that issue is getting worse. I feel like I brought this up maybe on another podcast we did too, but the fact that the same things that made TikTok so powerful, like having this for you page and having such a good algorithm also means that it's a completely lean back experience. [00:16:42] I don't have to follow anyone on the app. I don't have to take any actions at all. All I have to do is open it and keep scrolling. So there's very little motivation to follow anyone. So that goes for content creators, but it also goes for artists who are trying to, you know, actually build and retain long-term fans, rather [00:17:00] than just having a hit go viral on the platform, maybe it translates to a streaming bump and that's the end of it. [00:17:05] so I think that that is a bit of a threat. there's something else I was gonna say about that too. oh, that I think another point in all of this is, these platforms are no longer just competing for users. They're competing for creators because that's who's actually supplying the content, especially if you're an entertainment platform. [00:17:22] TikTok is kind of like, if Netflix was like, we're not gonna actually create any movies, we're just gonna have users upload their own, you know, like the users are supplying the content, the creators are who they need, and they need to appeal to them. So I think if enough creators get frustrated with feeling like they can't build a following on TikTok, musicians include, they might try migrating to a different service, and maybe if other services can do that better, they'll stay there. [00:17:46] So I think for that reason, it is a risk yeah, it's clear. I think it is something that TikTok is thinking about. [00:17:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah, It does need to be acknowledged. I think as I've thought about this a few ways, I think that the challenge that was presented by [00:18:00] Lyor would imply that there is a higher conversion rate from YouTube shorts to YouTube, and that they have the data to be able to prove that. Theoretically, I do think that that makes sense in terms of absolute numbers though, it would be very interesting to see how many streams absolute it actually leads to, just given how much more massive TikTok is relative to YouTube shorts in terms of just the amount of people actually watching videos on that platform on a regular basis. [00:18:29] And I think the other cod with YouTube, just to underscore something you had said was that, if artists themselves, or whether it's more broadly creators do start to feel like they're being more marginalized on the entertainment platform, where their name gets smaller and smaller and it's less important about who they are, and it's more important that they are just someone that is providing content on this platform, then they may be more likely to go some. [00:18:56] Like a YouTube, which we could transition into now, but go more sort like a [00:19:00] YouTube, which has tried a position itself as more friendly to its business partners as opposed to primarily itself. [00:19:07] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. And I mean, TikTok is, presumably trying to prove right now that it doesn't need music as much, the music industry believes with the kind of experiment they're doing in Australia. So I think that, relationship aspect is really important to all of this. [00:19:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And then one last thought on TikTok too that this just made me think of. I know a couple weeks ago, Snoop Dogg had re-released the Death Row Records catalog, at least the album he owns. Exclusively on TikTok. it was a window wink thing one week before he released it more broadly elsewhere. [00:19:40] While I do think that's probably more likely to be a one-off thing, just because it's a unique scenario where he is an artist, non-major record label that owns his content exclusively, he can choose to do with it what he wants. I'd be interested to see if that changes things and if TikTok does get more involved with exclusivity, especially if it builds out its [00:20:00] own music streaming service. [00:20:03] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, a hundred percent. [00:20:04] Dan Runcie: So we'll see how that one goes. But let's transition over to YouTube now, and I think we talked a little bit about this, but I think some of the pros that it has is that it clearly is YouTube short specifically is clearly a top of the funnel for YouTube. And YouTube already has this algorithm and everything built in there that makes it very easy for creators to be able. [00:20:28] Actually monetize and we've seen many artists be sustainable success stories with how they've tailored their music releases to working on YouTube and be a young boy is one artist that comes to mind there, there are several others and the fact that this can essentially be a way for them to just spread more awareness to others on the platform to then capture more eyeballs and at least of what we've seen, it feels like there is growth, at least of what YouTube has publicly shared. [00:20:54] I believe I saw the most recent number was 30 billion views per day for videos that were being [00:21:00] posted there. So there are a few things that seem to be working in its favor on. [00:21:05] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, and I think the sort of, what Lyor Cohen was talking about, like that ecosystem play that YouTube shorts has, is, it's a major pro for them whereas on TikTok, an artist is kind of posting an isolation on YouTube, maybe their shorts. [00:21:21] It's all on the same platform, and shorts can lead to their music videos or their vlogs on YouTube. And that could, in turn, you know, lead to their music on YouTube music. And I think that ecosystem is really powerful and that's what TikTok would be going after if and when they do launch a Western streaming service. [00:21:39] So for right now, I think that's probably YouTube Short's biggest advantage. And it's biggest sort of, way to like convince creators of its value, convince artists of its value and get them on board. and I think they're clearly trying to do that. [00:21:53] Dan Runcie: Great point. Another one too that that made me think of is another of YouTube's strengths is [00:22:00] they clearly are as I mentioned before, they are artist friendly in that it is a place where you can grow, monetize, you have the people that you're trying to reach there. But I do think that the fact that they're just stronger relationships that they have with the industry overall. [00:22:18] Does tend to play in, I mean, YouTube is very vocal about how much, or YouTube music specifically is very vocal about how much money it pays out to the music industry. It's made it a clear goal that it wants to surpass Spotify to be the platform that generates the most for that. And I think a lot of that transfers as well to on the artist side, whereas you mentioned a platform like TikTok, trying to be less reliant on music. [00:22:40] YouTube is actually trying to double down more than that, and the fact that there's just more stability in general. Obviously TikTok is the opposite of this, where we're still not sure will there be a band, will there be another company owning it? But with YouTube, it's the rare platform that 18 years into its [00:23:00] existence, people are still discovered it, people are still finding ways to be able to tap in. It competes with so many other entertainment platforms in so many ways that whether it's for attention, for content, for revenue, at least from a revenue perspective, it's not too far behind Netflix, if not in the same category, and it's all free content and the international reach, there's a lot there, and I feel like that's stability and that longevity, there's something to be said there. [00:23:29] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, that is something that I was gonna bring up too, is just how massive and far reaching YouTube's audiences. it's, you know, one of the most global platforms and one of the top like, the platforms that have the most penetration, I guess is how we put it in the data terms of, you know, weekly active users, globally. [00:23:48] And a question that kind of comes out of that for me though is like, how much overlap there is, I guess between the YouTube audience and the YouTube shorts audience. and I don't really know the answer to that. I mean, you would think that [00:24:00] a lot of habitual YouTube users trickle down to using shorts, but I'm not sure. [00:24:06] I think YouTube is, a lot of people use, YouTube on a desktop or on a smart tv, not necessarily on the app, on their phones, which is kind of the main place for using shorts. I think Shorts has, I know actually that Shorts has, a younger user base than YouTube as a whole, which also makes sense cuz YouTube just has more users in general. [00:24:24] But that's like an open question that I have too is how much overlap there is there, because that would impact this ecosystem strategy that they have. [00:24:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good con to highlight and I feel like. ties into with just user behavior on the platform too. TikTok, there already is this mind thought of this is the place where I can just scroll and get lost for hours. And on YouTube, if you're using the app on the phone, it's a separate tab that you have to click into to get to shorts because they're all at the bottom, whether it's shorts or regular videos. [00:24:55] You click into shorts and then you hope that it's a similar type of experience. The [00:25:00] difference though, is that YouTube's algorithm is very YouTube overall, that algorithm is very much based, a bit more on YouTube itself is now the second largest search engine we have, and at least from a YouTube itself standpoint, there's a bit more of a likelihood of it giving you repetitive content and repetitive information of, if you've seen one thing, you've probably seen all the things from this type of niche that you're interested in. Almost in the same way that Spotify can do that, because I know that's a very streaming thing to give you so much of what you already know to keep you sticky. But sure, from video it's different especially if you're trying to optimize from an entertainment perspective. You're trying to keep up with the new trends. You're trying to see what's there. This is your opportunity to just scroll and do that. So can YouTube shorts optimized for that as well, because optimizing for that type of algorithm is different than optimizing for the destination music streaming service, especially from a consumer [00:26:00] behavior perspective. [00:26:01] Tatiana Cirisano: No, and, as you mentioned before with Vine, if you have a smaller user base, you also just don't have as much content to continue serving so that the user can scroll forever. You don't have as many niches to go into like, I think part of the reason TikTok works so well is because since it has. [00:26:16] like what does it have? Like a billion users more. since it has so many users, every possible niche is on there. So whatever hyper-specific thing you're into, TikTok can serve you the content for that. But I don't know if that's something that these other platforms maybe reels more than shorts, but I don't know if these other platforms really have access to that level of niche. [00:26:36] Dan Runcie: That's a good point. And on that note, let's talk about Facebook and Meta and everything that they're doing, both with reels on the Instagram side and reels on the Facebook side. I feel like one of the pros there that works out for them is that, it is so well monetized just from an overall business perspective, what they're able to do from ads and how they're able to generate that a bit more so on Facebook than [00:27:00] Instagram, but still they're able to monetize that quite well, and I think that that does work into their favor because at the end of the date, this is obviously less about the artist and the industry perspective, but more from the company perspective. [00:27:14] Your ability to make that have a high ROI is strong. And at least from recent reports we've heard from Mark Zuckerberg, whether it's at earnings calls or some of the Meta town Hall meetings, it does seem like reels both on Facebook and Instagram are a growing source of eyeballs. And even though that is less money now relative to the more established streams that would only naturally grow over. [00:27:37] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. you know, you're reminding me too that Facebook did roll out that ad revenue sharing program for creators. and for the music industry for rights holders, which I don't think that that's available on reels yet. I've seen some reports that it could be in the future, but, you know, that is what it seems like the music industry is trying to get TikTok to agree to. [00:27:58] so, you know, I would imagine that's a better [00:28:00] deal, you know, from the music side of things, and that's definitely important to all of us. [00:28:03] Dan Runcie: For sure. Any other pros from Instagram or Facebook? [00:28:08] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, I think, they already have huge built-in user bases, which is, useful. They're kind of, they don't have to ask users to download a new app or like open a new tab the way, or I guess it's the same as YouTube shorts, but it feels a bit more built into what users already doing on the platform. [00:28:28] But that kind of also leads me to another point that I've been thinking about with this is, it's so interesting how like TikTok is an app, but on these other platforms it's a feature. Like TikTok is a standalone app for short form video, but when you go on Instagram reels, it's just another feature in the toolbox. [00:28:43] Kind of similar to how, you know, when Snapchat had stories, originally had stories, Instagram just added that as a feature and kind of stole the concept away. And it was, it worked because it was just another tool in the toolbox for its users. I don't know if that's a pro or a con, but it's an interesting [00:29:00] differentiator to me. [00:29:00] they're positioning this as just another tool. I don't know. [00:29:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think you maybe think of two things there, so I think that new features like that do work best when there is a audience that is either searching for this answer or searching for this type of solution that's already tapped in with how they consume and how they naturally engage with the platform. And I think that's been one of the differentiating factors between the copycat attempts from Facebook that work and the ones that don't work. [00:29:31] Like why I think that Instagram stories took off in a ways is because, In a way, even more so than it did for a Snapchat, is that you had this core group of people, influencers, who were already using Instagram, but there's just so much pressure to post these perfect photos on the main feed. So stories helped, co helped solve that, and it helped solve that in a way that. [00:29:54] even more so for that target audience on Instagram, because Snapchat didn't really have as many [00:30:00] influencers, at least to the same extent. Instagram still had a much larger group. So it's like that group that our, the group stole the feature bin, that feature was even more relevant cuz they had more of the target audience than you ever did. [00:30:11] That was already relevant to like, how they were going about it in a way where I feel like some of Facebook's other things like facebook dating for instance, that they've like started and I don't even know if it's still going on. But sure, you have all the active users that naturally would want to, like most of the people using Match or Tinder probably already have Facebook accounts, but that isn't like tapped into like how they naturally use the platform. [00:30:34] And I bring that up in this case because I think that reels is a behavior that is more closely aligned to the Instagram experience than shorts is to the YouTube experience because there was already a mindless nature to some extent of how Instagram was being used. Sure, I know there's differences based on to the point you mentioned earlier of people saying, Hey, I wanna see [00:31:00] my friends. [00:31:00] Not necessarily all this to other stuff, but there's still a mindlessness to seeing your friends or just scrolling through the [00:31:07] feed and. [00:31:08] Tatiana Cirisano: that's a really point. [00:31:09] Dan Runcie: And YouTube didn't really have that scrolling through the feed dynamic. Sure, the algorithm could suggest things, but the algorithm suggested things in a way that was almost closer to Spotify's algorithm suggesting things than it was to Instagram. [00:31:21] suggest you the next thing. [00:31:23] Tatiana Cirisano: That's such a good point. And it reminds me about how I was saying before, like people on Instagram will run out of stuff from their friends to look at. So maybe reels is the solution, maybe it's like going back to what you're saying about like solving a user need. Maybe it's you run out of things from your friends. [00:31:40] Here's reels where you can scroll mindlessly forever and see content from people you don't know. I don't know. That's a great point. [00:31:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, thank you. It's something I've thought about too, because I feel like, yeah, running outta content is clearly a thing, cuz I feel like we've all had those moments on Instagram where, we're taping this now, it's almost March. You'll see posts [00:32:00] from the end of December that come through on something and you're like, wait, what? [00:32:03] Why am I getting this now? Like this isn't even timely anymore, but it's something that went viral then. And that obviously isn't something that happens on TikTok in that same way. [00:32:11] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, you you don't get a thing on TikTok that says you're up to date. When I get that on Instagram, like , when I get that on Instagram, I'm like, that's how I know I've spent too much time on this app. It's the equivalent of Netflix going, are you still [00:32:23] Dan Runcie: Right. You still there? [00:32:25] Tatiana Cirisano: you don't get that on TikTok if you got that on TikTok, like I need, someone needs to help you. [00:32:32] That's such a good point. That's such a good point. So yeah, [00:32:35] Dan Runcie: Some of the cons, I will say just with reels, both from Facebook and with Instagram, though a lot of ads and a lot of ads, and this is part of the double-edged sword about how well it's monetized, right? But a lot of ads that I don't hear people complaining as much about ads on the other platforms. [00:32:53] Tatiana Cirisano: Mm-hmm. , that's something, I hadn't even thought about here, and you're totally right. many more ads on those platforms for sure.[00:33:00] [00:33:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think too, just given that point I mentioned about influencers being a core demographic for Instagram overall because that's been the core audience there. How does that translate necessarily as much to artists? And I know that there's some overlap there with some artists who very much position themselves as influencers. [00:33:18] But if you're an artist who really isn't about influencing in that way, is ls going to be as effective, relatively speaking, compared to some of the other short form video platforms. [00:33:29] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, and I think that also gets to the, cultures that are different on these platforms like I think similar to what you were saying about how Instagram influencers like stories because they could be more off the cuff. I think reels still has a feeling of being a bit more professional and less casual than TikTok. [00:33:47] TikTok feels a bit more casual, off the cuff weird. You don't get as much weird content on Instagram reels. It's a lot more curated and, professionalized. and it's interesting because I actually had, as one of my [00:34:00] pros to talk about something that I've just, I don't know if this is still true, but something that I've heard from marketers, music marketers in the past is that, Instagram just has more trust with brands than TikTok and other platforms that are new because they've been using it for so long. [00:34:12] they know what the deal is like. It just has, better relationships in that respect. but if that's also leading to more ads on the platform, then it's kind of a pro and a con. [00:34:21] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. That's a great point. The brand piece too, and I know that TikTok is clearly trying to do it with some of the reports they've put out some of the positioning trying to get itself to be seen as a home for brands to be able to tap in. But Instagram has owned that space for quite some time. [00:34:37] Tatiana Cirisano: Exactly. [00:34:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah, any other pros and cons on reels before we move? [00:34:42] Tatiana Cirisano: Well, I guess one other thing I'll say, this kind of applies to everything, but you've made me think during this conversation. I would love to know what percentage of people on each of these platforms are lurking versus also posting content. cuz I think that would impact our idea of like how deep the trove of content can go and how that impacts the [00:35:00] algorithm and the niches you can get into likeI sort of have a theory that because TikTok is a bit more casual and off the cuff, it might have more of a, percentage of its users are posting content. Like I've never, I don't think I would ever make a reel. It feels very influencer to me, but I would post a TikTok cuz whatever, like, it just feels a little bit more casual. [00:35:17] So I think that's an interesting question to me is what percentage are creators and what percentage are just like passive users? [00:35:25] Dan Runcie: That is a really good question. Yeah, it would be good to see that, right? Because I feel like TikTok kind of has two things going forward one, it does seem less formal from a content release perspective of just being able to share it. But on the other hand too, anytime you get into the absolute numbers of over 1 billion, approaching 2 billion monthly active users specifically on this feature of the short form, you know, For You page, it does lend itself to likelihood. [00:35:56] Each time you go outside of that like concentric circle, I feel like it's a higher [00:36:00] likelihood of attracting more lurkers than hardcore users. But it'll be great data to be able to see. That's a really good point. [00:36:06] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. We'll have to put that in a survey. [00:36:09] Dan Runcie: I know, I know. We'll have to get those answers somewhere, but so now that we've talked about each of these, TikTok is the company that is clearly in the lead, both from a reach perspective, how long it's been established with this particular platform itself, and outside of the potential government sanctions or anything there, is there anything that you could see that could change the likelihood of that continuing relative to these other two services? [00:36:34] YouTube shorts and Instagram and Facebook reels. [00:36:37] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, the thing that immediate. Comes to mind for me is it's licenses with music and its relationships with music knowing that those are negotiations that are happening as we speak. I think if TikTok were to suddenly, I guess this is the thing that they're kind of trying to test in Australia, but if TikTok were to suddenly lose a lot of popular music, what would that do to the platform? [00:36:59] [00:37:00] so I think that's the first question that comes to mind for me, just from, you know, music industry stand [00:37:06] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I hear that. I could see that I thought about this too, and I had a tough time thinking about something that could really shift things. I do wonder about, If monetization itself and revenue generation does become an issue for TikTok moving forward, how that can shape the nature of the experience of the platform, right? Because meta and Google being YouTube's parent company are both so much more established. They've been around for years generating revenue at a pretty steady clip. And while at least the way TikTok is right now, it does have the advantage of being under bite dance, which has several, you know, has a lot of money coming in as well. [00:37:49] I do wonder how profitable that will be. And obviously we saw how meta adapted to try to make money, where we're complaining about how [00:38:00] many ads there would be on the platform, could any potential changes there from the need to get more money, change that user experience in a way that could decline the user experience for this core demographic. [00:38:12] So that's definitely a risk for TikTok. [00:38:14] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. And also kind of going off that, if any of these platforms were to provide a much better way somehow for the creators on the platform to earn money from it, and then the creators were to go to that platform, that's where the audiences would be. So I think that creators actually have a lot of leverage right now, with that, because I think you can tell that all of these platforms are kind of competing to be the most sort of creator friendly, TikTok is updating, its fund, its creator fund. after getting a lot of complaints about how it was working, YouTube shorts, I think announced an ad revenue share program. So I think that could shake things up is I, I don't know what it would be, but if one of these platforms had ways superior monetization tools for the [00:39:00] creators, I could see the creators migrating there and their audience is following. [00:39:03] Dan Runcie: Right. Yep. Good point. They all have funds to some extent, but you clearly need more than money if everyone else has it too, right? Like how is it gonna be used in an effective way? So it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. [00:39:16] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. But at the same time, it's like, even if another, say that another platform say that YouTube Shorts had way better monetization for creators, but it still has a smaller audience. Will creators migrate there and hope that their audiences follow them? Or do they feel like they, it's better to have the larger audience for, you know, leveraging brand deals and things that are outside of the app like. [00:39:36] Dan Runcie: True. Yeah. [00:39:37] Tatiana Cirisano: I don't know what would be the better deal. [00:39:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, that's a good point because I think as we saw in the Spotify era, it was very easy for artists that didn't care about streaming and Spotify to ignore it and be very proud about them ignoring streaming back [00:39:52] Tatiana Cirisano: Exactly. Yeah. [00:39:53] Dan Runcie: 16. But all those artists are now on Spotify because they were like, can't beat 'em join them pretty much. [00:39:59] Tatiana Cirisano: [00:40:00] Right. Like will TikTok always be the place where you can't afford not to be? [00:40:04] Dan Runcie: Yep, exactly. [00:40:06] Tatiana Cirisano: I mean, not forever. that's the thing about social media. nothing stays. It's popular, I don't think forever, but you know, how long can it last? I don't know. [00:40:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, we'll see. We'll see. All right, so a few, quicker questions here as we're getting to the tail line butwanna break this down for which of these platform do you think is in the strongest position for each of these groups? Artists, record labels, and, the parent company, the company itself overall. [00:40:30] So let's start with artists. Which of these companies do you think creates the most value for artists? And let me not just say companies be clear. Let me talk which short form video platform. [00:40:41] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. Well, it depends how you define value, I guess. Because if you were saying for having a hit or influencing streaming numbers? I would say TikTok getting discovered, I would say TikTok, but if you're saying for developing a [00:41:00] sustaining long-term fan base, no matter what the size is, I might say YouTube shorts because of that ecosystem that it has. [00:41:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah. [00:41:09] Tatiana Cirisano: yeah. [00:41:09] Dan Runcie: I think that's a good way to frame it cuz I TikTok down as well, just because of the absolute numbers part of the algorithm, how many people you could reach. But I think that your per user approach or even the ability to do conversion of actual fandom. YouTube probably has a bit more tight in there. [00:41:27] It's kind of like a short term versus long term [00:41:29] Yeah, definitely. And it's like, okay, do you want this absolute number or do you want who you're most actually able to have as a real super fan down the road? [00:41:39] Yeah.What about record labels? [00:41:40] Tatiana Cirisano: That's a good one. Because I mean, we know that by far, YouTube as a whole is generating more for the music industry for record labels than any of these platforms. But when it comes to shorts, I'm not so sure it might be TikTok [00:41:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah, [00:41:56] Tatiana Cirisano: in terms of the bottom, [00:41:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's tough. I was stuck [00:42:00] on that one too. I think my answer still leaned YouTube, but that's probably thinking about, A the overall tie in and the clear [00:42:07] connection to have it feed into the broader video platform, but then also what it seems like Leo's goals to make that be a clear thing. [00:42:16] So that was the thought there. And then most value it created for its parent company. Which one would I be saying. [00:42:24] Tatiana Cirisano: okay, so we have TikTok bite Dance, YouTube, Google, Instagram, Facebook. that's a really good, that's a tough one. [00:42:32] Dan Runcie: I went with meta for this one because I [00:42:34] Tatiana Cirisano: That's where I was leaning. That's where I was [00:42:36] Dan Runcie: it's. , I think it's the most well monetized, at least from what a social media user is able to do and what they're able to generate from a sole Facebook user on average is so much higher than any of these other platforms. And the fact that this could potentially be a funnel into that is strong. [00:42:55] And I know a lot of people may roll their eyes, if you're a certain generation the thought of a [00:43:00] Facebook reel even as opposed to an Instagram reel. But there's an audience for it and there's a reason why it's there. And that may not line up with contemporary artists, but that may line up with some, you know, other established artists that are clearly trying to reach that base. [00:43:12] So I feel like there's something there. [00:43:14] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, I think that makes sense. That's where I was leaning to. These are good questions. [00:43:18] Dan Runcie: And then I just to close things out, we talked a little bit about this earlier. Well, you touched on this a little bit earlier, but will there be a new form of consumption, content consumption that could take over as the place for music discovery and its top of funnel in the next five years? [00:43:35] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, that's a great question. What did I touch on earlier that related to. [00:43:39] Dan Runcie: You were mentioning that there's a new social media platform like every few years that like comes through. So even though TikTok is in like a [00:43:46] Tatiana Cirisano: yeah. [00:43:46] Dan Runcie: today, we don't know what it's gonna look like in the future. [00:43:49] Tatiana Cirisano: So I have a couple answers to this. One thing that I've been really, it's so funny, every time we do this, I always have a timely report coming out on the topic. I don't know how you have like [00:44:00] this somehow, this telepathy to know this, but I was wor I'm working on this report right now that's very related, which is about how potentially the next step for all of this, for music and social media could be, not only are you opening TikTok and adding, you know, a Taylor Swift song to your post, but you're also remixing the song, or you're adding your own vocals or you're actually changing it. So going a step further in what I was saying about, users engaging, creating their own spin on the music that they're fans of, they would be actually changing the song as well. [00:44:33] Dan Runcie: you wrote about this recently, right? About like [00:44:35] Tatiana Cirisano: yeah. [00:44:36] Dan Runcie: and like, and music having its Instagram moment. [00:44:38] Tatiana Cirisano: Yes, exactly. So the same way that Instagram brought kind of mainstream photography tools to the average consumer, and TikTok did the same thing with videography. when will music be part of that? When will music making and recreation tools actually be part of these platforms? And when I've talked to people who know way more about this than I do, and said, you know, why hasn't [00:45:00] this happened? [00:45:00] A lot of it is about how hard it is to simplify music making into a mobile screen, let alone like, put it on top of a social app. and that's why, you know, I had the AI tie into my blog post is because, there are companies that are using AI to simplify that process and make this possible. So like Snapchat is a company that is like semi-related to short form video that we haven't talked about, and they have an integration right now with a company called Mini Beats, where you can remix the song that you're putting on your post. so I think that's not necessarily like, it's not a new platform, but it's a new way of consuming like I think creation as a form of consumption is like probably the next step. [00:45:44] Dan Runcie: And that ends up being the catalyst for how so many of these platforms grow. We talked about TikTok and just how it was able to attract this group of music in some way was the backbone for user generated content. And then it just attracted so much, and everyone's talked about what AI looks [00:46:00] like, I was watching some video the other day about some guy that looked and sounded nothing like Kendrick Lamar had this voice alteration thing that made him sound just like him. [00:46:09] And while it's not quite AI, I think there's a lot of elements there. So whoever taps that and then that can then be the launchpad for the next thing. Something like that could easily overtake and become the next dominant social media player. But we'll see. It'll take a couple years to get to 1.5 billion [00:46:26] Tatiana Cirisano: Probably more than five. [00:46:28] Dan Runcie: probably five. [00:46:29] Tatiana Cirisano: probably more than five just because of licensing really. But, I mean, I think the interesting thing to note there is this type of behavior is kind of already happening like I notice a lot of with sped up songs and how the music industry actually adopted that after sped up clips were going viral on TikTok, like users are already modifying the songs and then uploading those modified versions. [00:46:49] So imagine if that capability was actually part of the platform itself. [00:46:52] Dan Runcie: Right, right. It's like everyone saw DJ Screw make a, you know, huge influence with this for this chopped and screwed music. [00:47:00] So it's only about time that you make it easy to make that accessible for users. [00:47:04] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. So we'll see. [00:47:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So we'll see. But Tati, pleasure as always. Thanks for coming on and yeah, we'll definitely have to stay tapped in with what you have coming up next on this topic. [00:47:14] So relevant to this discussion. [00:47:15] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, thanks for having me again. Always a pleasure. [00:47:18] Short-form video has exploded in popularity the past three years, buoyed by TikTok. Copycat apps and features are now the norm across social media sites — Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, and Instagram. MIDiA analyst Tati Cirisano joins me on this episode to break down the ongoing war between short-form video’s main players. 


The music industry is certainly keeping a close eye on the battle. Short-form video has been a boon for music discovery. Though, many music execs would also argue music has played a big factor in the rise of these platforms, and the industry wants to better monetize that.


Tati and I covered all this and more on the show. Here’s everything we hit on:


[02:59] Vine paved the way for short-form video

[05:56] TikTok filled void in social media

[06:53] Factors behind TikTok’s success

[10:19] TikTok is an entertainment platform, not social 

[13:20] Potential pitfalls for TikTok 

[23:10] YouTube’s biggest advantages 

[25:53] Overlap between YouTube’s short-form and long-form audiences

[29:37] Facebook and Instagram Reels are picking up steam

[35:19] Instagram Reels more natural to the platform than YT Shorts

[35:35] Meta’s advertising is both a pro and a con

[36:39] Active creator vs. passive watcher user bases

[38:35] In what scenario does TikTok lose top spot in short-form video war?

[41:50] Best platform for artists?

[43:08] Best platform for record labels?

[44:05] Best monetized platform?

[47:11] Will there be a new form of content consumption in the next five years?


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Tati Cirisano, @tatianacirisano


This episode was brought to you by trac. Learn more about how artists can bring web2 and web3 together for their fans at trac.co 


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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Tatiana Cirisano: One of my pros to talk about something that I've just, I don't know if this is still true, but something that I've heard from marketers, music marketers in the past is that, Instagram just has more trust with brands than TikTok and other platforms that are new because they've been using it for so long.

[00:00:13] They know what the deal is like. It just has, better relationships in that respect. but if that's also leading to more ads on the platform, then it's kind of a pro and a con.

[00:00:42] Dan Runcie: All right, today we have a jam packed episode that is about the short form video wars, which platform will come out on top. And I'm joined by none other than Tati Cirisano from Video Research. Welcome.

[00:00:55] Tatiana Cirisano: Thanks Dan. Good to be back. Thanks for entertaining another rant of mine,

[00:01:00] Dan Runcie: No, this is good. And with what you write about what you cover, you're the perfect person to have this conversation with. There has been so much focus as anyone listening to this podcast, who knows about the influence of short form video, what it does for discovery, for music, for artists, how record labels and all these companies are tackling it.

[00:01:19] Now we have several companies that are vying for that spot with similar but different products. But before we jump into TikTok, YouTube, and Instagram, I feel like we gotta give props where it is and give a shout out to Vine because I don't know if we were to be here if it weren't for Vine paving the way, so, oh, gone too soon.

[00:01:41] Tatiana Cirisano: you're giving me flashbacks to the Water Malone guy. I don't know if anyone else is gonna remember that, but the specific things that went viral on that platform. Oh God,yeah. We have to give the shout out to Vine.

[00:01:53] Dan Runcie: It was the perfect example of constraints, breeding, creativity, six, seven, second videos, and people had whole narratives of storytelling there. It was so unique to see what people were able to do. I feel like at its peak I saw it was 200 million monthly active users, which obviously is a drop in the bucket compared to the services we're about to talk about.

[00:02:17] But at that moment, that felt huge. It really was the platform. And obviously I know that Twitter had other objectives and things there, but. It's almost like a little too early as well. I just don't know if culture was like right there. And even music itself with artists, I feel like there was a lot of influencers, but there's a few artists, but not as many that really tapped in where it was really a huge discovery platform.

[00:02:41] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, and I think also like people weren't so comfortable with creating content at that time, or it wasn't something that was like so readily available. Like now I feel like every teenager just kind of create, thinks of creating content as, you know, just part of the social toolbox. Or maybe they want to be a content creator and that's, you know, that's like a sort of a new aspiration.

[00:03:02] But I think at the time of Vine, maybe that's another reason it didn't pop off, is it wasn't like the consumer behavior wasn't there. There were some people that loved to make videos, but I think most people were just watching.

[00:03:11] Dan Runcie: Right, and I feel like too, the people that really popped off on that platform, They never quite got as big as some of the people that are on the platforms. We're gonna talk about, thinking about whether, you know, you mentioned someone where thinking about Alphacat or like King Bach, some of the others that were big there, and I know they had moments, but again, it was almost a little bit ahead of its time in terms of them being able to really take off the way things did in the late 2010s and ever.

[00:03:39] Tatiana Cirisano: Mm. I'm also trying to remember now because one of the major things that usually comes up for me talking about like why TikTok was so impactful is how it's such, it was such a big deal that it opened to the for you page instead of like a feed of people, content from people you already know. But in my mind, it was kind of like the first major social media platform to do that.

[00:03:59] But was Vine actually the first, I don't remember how the feed worked. Was it people you followed or was it just random?

[00:04:05] Dan Runcie: I forget. That's a good point. I forget someone listening probably will ping back and say that, oh, it was this way. But yeah, I completely forget. I feel like I remember there are videos I knew from people that I would go back and follow cause they easily wanted to go watch it. But yeah, I completely forget. And even if it was there, I don't think the algorithm had quite enough content to be able to make that happen.

[00:04:27] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, that's true. But yeah, the history is really interesting cuz you had Vine and then Twitter shut it down and there was kind of this void for people that loved the platform not having something similar. And then musically came around, but it wasn't really the same. It was kind of all focused on lip syncing.

[00:04:44] It wasn't, you know, people just making random videos. and I feel like it also had kind of a younger audience, like it was more like middle schoolers than high schoolers. And it just kind of didn't have that same, it didn't reach like the critical mass of, no offense to middle schoolers, but like it didn't have that cool factor

[00:05:02] so it's interesting like that happened. And then the timing is so important because I feel like we can't ignore the fact that TikTok launched in the US a few years before the pandemic and kind of reached that critical mass of users right when Lockdowns began. so yeah, I'm glad that you started with Vine cause I think the history is really important to look at.

[00:05:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think the TikTok piece is unique because before TikTok ends up launching in the US, Instagram and Snapchat have stories, which obviously isn't the same as what we're gonna talk about with Instagram having reels. But that vertical video, and I believe that when Instagram first came out, it was 15 seconds, I believe was the limit.

[00:05:44] So there was a bit of that trying to copy what Vine was doing to that extent. But then TikTok comes up with, you know, an entirely new platform. And I feel like the concept of a TikTok post is what then brings you to it's, For You page, and just [00:06:00] having that endless content role. Which a reel is, but a Instagram story or even a Snapchat story I tried to do at points, but never quite got there, which is why Instagram and Facebook more broadly has tried to make a pivot into that.

[00:06:15] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. And it was more about like from music's perspective, it was about users engaging with the music that they're fans of like when TikTok first started to blow up in 2020, it was all dance challenges. It was all people kind of putting their own spin on the songs that they loved, and I feel like that's also different from stories and like the other sort of video, sort of short form video, tools that we had before where it was maybe about

[00:06:40] sharing music, but it wasn't about actually engaging with it and putting your own spin on it. And I think that was the other thing that TikTok did that was really powerful from the music discovery standpoint, is inviting people to actually put their own spin on the things that they love.

[00:06:54] Dan Runcie: Right. There was a culture that was created around the music and around the content [00:07:00] generation that did not exist in those platforms, right? Like to your point, yeah, you could have had music playing while you're sharing some video that you naturally wouldn't have wanted to share on your Instagram feed, but that wasn't the same as trying to do your own rendition of Old Town Road, right?

[00:07:17] Tatiana Cirisano: And there weren't trends like TikTok is so trends focused, which is a key reason why songs tend to go viral on the platform. So, yeah.

[00:07:26] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And on that note, we should dive into it. So for everyone listening, there's three companies that will do our breakdown on, so TikTok Meta. and YouTube and what they're doing respectively in short form video. And on that note, let's start with TikTok and just highlight some of the pros and cons there.

[00:07:43] And I think we talked about a few of them, the cultureyou also talked about just the likelihood of users themselves wanting to engage and create in a way that they wouldn't on others before that, what are some other things that stand out about, like why TikTok has been able to have a strong position here.[00:08:00]

[00:08:00] Tatiana Cirisano: I mean, definitely their algorithm, their algorithm is scary good.I know a lot of people will say like, oh, TikTok knows me better than I know myself. And it's true, I get recommendations that are so hyper-specific. and if, you know, it's such a major tool for discovery for that reason.

[00:08:16] It's not just showing you things, it's showing you things that you will probably like. So I think, TikTok's algorithm is a huge pro for them. but I also think. at this point, aside from the algorithms, all of these platforms pretty much look the same or have the same user experience. I don't know as much from the creation standpoint in terms of like video editing tools, but from the consumer standpoint, they're all pretty similar.

[00:08:40] So I think at that point, the thing that will differentiate you is the culture, and I think TikTok just has a lot more cultural capital than shorts and reels do, maybe because it was first, like so many trends tend to start on TikTok and then trickle down to the other platforms, to the point where I remember like a year ago [00:09:00] or months ago, there were so many reels, users posting TikTok videos that still had the TikTok watermark that reels actually deprioritize them in the algorithm to like try to get people to not do that.

[00:09:11] So I think it's something that's hard to measure and can change very quickly, but right now I think the cultural capital is with TikTok and that's a huge pro for them.

[00:09:22] Dan Runcie: Right when you're the dominant player, when people are watching videos on other platforms and they're repurposed for yours, that's when you know, we rarely see the opposite of that happen with TikTok and that speaks to it, right? I feel like the other part of where TikTok, I think just stands strong and further proof of that cultural piece is, I think back to the analogy I know that I've said, and others have said about how TikTok is the new MTV and just in terms of its cultural influence on where people find things, and even though it's not the only place that is that artists or, [00:10:00] creators can post short from videos, it's similar in that even back in the MTV days, MTV wasn't the only place that posted and released music videos. You could watch them on VH1, you could watch them on BET.

[00:10:13] There were other channels that had it. And while I do think that, at least with BET specifically, there was a culture around there specifically for the black audience and a lot of the people that were interested in those artists themselves. The MTV itself was able to have a bit of this more like mainstream pop rock aspect that also they were able to reach into.

[00:10:35] And I think even if you look at VH1, I think that trended a bit older. So even though I think there was still success to be had with some of those other areas, you still saw that MTV ended up still being seen as the dominant player, clearly not to everyone. I think that, as I mentioned, you know, BET still was more relevant to some audiences than others, and I feel like.

[00:10:55] There may be some of that. could be true with the short form video aspect too, where I feel [00:11:00] like TikTok is still the dominant player, but are there certain types of users that may be more likely to find success on YouTube shorts or Instagram reels? I don't know if that's necessarily true yet, just because and we can talk about this.

[00:11:13] I don't know if we see the same breakdowns there, but that's one thing that I was thinking about as well. Even if you are the main cultural place, are the other areas finding their own folks.

[00:11:23] Tatiana Cirisano: Totally. No, and I wanna, think about that question of what platforms benefit, which artists. But you also just reminded me of something else cuz of your comparison to MTV, which is that TikTok considers itself an entertainment platform, not a social platform. And that's so key to me.

[00:11:39] And so interesting, like you'll see even in, in news articles and interviews, people will call it social platform and you know, the CEO or whoever's being interviewed will say, no, no, no, no, no, back up because we are an entertainment platform. And that's really different. I think, you know, YouTube shorts is a bit similar because most people don't go to YouTube or social.

[00:11:58] They go there to again, like be [00:12:00] entertained. But that's something that pits it sort of, or puts it in a different playing field, I guess, than something like reels because people have usually gone to Instagram to see content from people that they know, to the point where when Instagram like introduced a, you know, a TikTok like feed, a lot of people are like, I don't want this.

[00:12:15] I wanna see what my friends are doing. and I think that's changed over time with like influencer culture like I definitely follow a lot of people that I don't know at all. But in general, you know, these other spaces that might try and launch short formm video like Instagram are social platforms that people use for social reasons, and TikTok kind of puts itself in a different playing field by labeling itself as an entertainment platform, which also kind of, I think one of the benefits to that for them is, you know, I think it's part of the reason that people spend so much time on TikTok like there are stats for the average amount of time people spend on the app is ridiculous. It's something like an hour, like nobody does that in one sitting on Instagram, and it's probably because you run out of content.

[00:12:57] If you're following a certain number of people, [00:13:00] I run out of, you know, stories to watch or people's content to view. There's only so much you can get out of a social platform like that. But with TikTok, if you're there for entertainment, you can scroll forever. I've done it . So, you know, I think that's a key distinction.

[00:13:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a great pro and I think we can talk a little bit more about that when we talk about like who wins out, whether it's, you know, platform versus artist versus company. But, cause I feel like there's a tie in with that too. But that's a great point. What do you think some of the cons are about TikTok?

[00:13:28] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. I mean, I think the kind of obvious one is the threat of it being banned. but I don't know that's an interesting one because I feel like it's not talked about that much. It's always kind of an aside, and a potential, but it's unclear whether that could actually happen. what might end up being a bigger inhibitor is just the attitudes that that inspires like if parents are like, oh, the government might is trying to ban TikTok, it must be bad, let me tell my kid they're not allowed to [00:14:00] use it like I think the perceptions that people have about the app and their safety on it, they might be influenced enough by the threat of a band to be scared of using it.

[00:14:08] Like I know some people that kind of feel freaked out by it. so I think that could be a real threat or it could be an imagined one, but it could have impact either way.

[00:14:17] Dan Runcie: I thought a lot about the threat piece. I think the most likely scenario would be that it's similar to the discussions that we saw three years ago, where is there a US company that would potentially take over TikTok us and could that be the outcome? I know that a lot of that had pretty much died down with the US presidency transfer of power, and those discussions stopped.

[00:14:40] But I do feel like if anything I could see that, likely happening as opposed to a full on ban. We'll see though. I mean, because I feel like that could address some of the concerns. Hopefully if that happens, we'll see how whatever company that runs it would go about managing it. But that's how I see that piece of it, particularly playing out.[00:15:00]

[00:15:00] The other con that I've thought a lot about is, it's something Lyor Cohen, who runs YouTube, or at least he runs YouTube music, has talked about, he did an interview in, music business worldwide a couple months back, and he has, and I quote, he says, "Short form video that doesn't lead anywhere is the most dangerous thing I've seen in the music business in a long time."

[00:15:23] A lot of people are very familiar because it was one of those quotes where he didn't say the company, but everyone knew he was talking about TikTok. And the thing is, many of us know that TikTok is avidly trying to build up has its distribution service, but it's trying to build up its own streaming service so that traffic can go somewhere and that it can do that.

[00:15:42] It already has RESO in other countries, but it's actively trying to do that in the us but it still hasn't been able to do that. We know it. These are very cost intensive things to be able to do and do, right? I think it's worth talking about whether or not we think that is as big of a threat as positioned, but I do know that [00:16:00] that is one of the conceptions out there that you have this top of funnel that doesn't directly lead anywhere.

[00:16:05] So if you are obviously, record labels and others are tracking the pipeline of TikTok data that then leads to streams and things like that. But is the fact that that is a non-connected platform, at least the way it lives today, is that a risk in your eyes or a con?

[00:16:24] Tatiana Cirisano: I think it is a risk. I mean, I think that issue is getting worse. I feel like I brought this up maybe on another podcast we did too, but the fact that the same things that made TikTok so powerful, like having this for you page and having such a good algorithm also means that it's a completely lean back experience.

[00:16:42] I don't have to follow anyone on the app. I don't have to take any actions at all. All I have to do is open it and keep scrolling. So there's very little motivation to follow anyone. So that goes for content creators, but it also goes for artists who are trying to, you know, actually build and retain long-term fans, rather [00:17:00] than just having a hit go viral on the platform, maybe it translates to a streaming bump and that's the end of it.

[00:17:05] so I think that that is a bit of a threat. there's something else I was gonna say about that too. oh, that I think another point in all of this is, these platforms are no longer just competing for users. They're competing for creators because that's who's actually supplying the content, especially if you're an entertainment platform.

[00:17:22] TikTok is kind of like, if Netflix was like, we're not gonna actually create any movies, we're just gonna have users upload their own, you know, like the users are supplying the content, the creators are who they need, and they need to appeal to them. So I think if enough creators get frustrated with feeling like they can't build a following on TikTok, musicians include, they might try migrating to a different service, and maybe if other services can do that better, they'll stay there.

[00:17:46] So I think for that reason, it is a risk yeah, it's clear. I think it is something that TikTok is thinking about.

[00:17:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah, It does need to be acknowledged. I think as I've thought about this a few ways, I think that the challenge that was presented by [00:18:00] Lyor would imply that there is a higher conversion rate from YouTube shorts to YouTube, and that they have the data to be able to prove that. Theoretically, I do think that that makes sense in terms of absolute numbers though, it would be very interesting to see how many streams absolute it actually leads to, just given how much more massive TikTok is relative to YouTube shorts in terms of just the amount of people actually watching videos on that platform on a regular basis.

[00:18:29] And I think the other cod with YouTube, just to underscore something you had said was that, if artists themselves, or whether it's more broadly creators do start to feel like they're being more marginalized on the entertainment platform, where their name gets smaller and smaller and it's less important about who they are, and it's more important that they are just someone that is providing content on this platform, then they may be more likely to go some.

[00:18:56] Like a YouTube, which we could transition into now, but go more sort like a [00:19:00] YouTube, which has tried a position itself as more friendly to its business partners as opposed to primarily itself.

[00:19:07] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. And I mean, TikTok is, presumably trying to prove right now that it doesn't need music as much, the music industry believes with the kind of experiment they're doing in Australia. So I think that, relationship aspect is really important to all of this.

[00:19:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And then one last thought on TikTok too that this just made me think of. I know a couple weeks ago, Snoop Dogg had re-released the Death Row Records catalog, at least the album he owns. Exclusively on TikTok. it was a window wink thing one week before he released it more broadly elsewhere.

[00:19:40] While I do think that's probably more likely to be a one-off thing, just because it's a unique scenario where he is an artist, non-major record label that owns his content exclusively, he can choose to do with it what he wants. I'd be interested to see if that changes things and if TikTok does get more involved with exclusivity, especially if it builds out its [00:20:00] own music streaming service.

[00:20:03] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, a hundred percent.

[00:20:04] Dan Runcie: So we'll see how that one goes. But let's transition over to YouTube now, and I think we talked a little bit about this, but I think some of the pros that it has is that it clearly is YouTube short specifically is clearly a top of the funnel for YouTube. And YouTube already has this algorithm and everything built in there that makes it very easy for creators to be able.

[00:20:28] Actually monetize and we've seen many artists be sustainable success stories with how they've tailored their music releases to working on YouTube and be a young boy is one artist that comes to mind there, there are several others and the fact that this can essentially be a way for them to just spread more awareness to others on the platform to then capture more eyeballs and at least of what we've seen, it feels like there is growth, at least of what YouTube has publicly shared.

[00:20:54] I believe I saw the most recent number was 30 billion views per day for videos that were being [00:21:00] posted there. So there are a few things that seem to be working in its favor on.

[00:21:05] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, and I think the sort of, what Lyor Cohen was talking about, like that ecosystem play that YouTube shorts has, is, it's a major pro for them whereas on TikTok, an artist is kind of posting an isolation on YouTube, maybe their shorts.

[00:21:21] It's all on the same platform, and shorts can lead to their music videos or their vlogs on YouTube. And that could, in turn, you know, lead to their music on YouTube music. And I think that ecosystem is really powerful and that's what TikTok would be going after if and when they do launch a Western streaming service.

[00:21:39] So for right now, I think that's probably YouTube Short's biggest advantage. And it's biggest sort of, way to like convince creators of its value, convince artists of its value and get them on board. and I think they're clearly trying to do that.

[00:21:53] Dan Runcie: Great point. Another one too that that made me think of is another of YouTube's strengths is [00:22:00] they clearly are as I mentioned before, they are artist friendly in that it is a place where you can grow, monetize, you have the people that you're trying to reach there. But I do think that the fact that they're just stronger relationships that they have with the industry overall.

[00:22:18] Does tend to play in, I mean, YouTube is very vocal about how much, or YouTube music specifically is very vocal about how much money it pays out to the music industry. It's made it a clear goal that it wants to surpass Spotify to be the platform that generates the most for that. And I think a lot of that transfers as well to on the artist side, whereas you mentioned a platform like TikTok, trying to be less reliant on music.

[00:22:40] YouTube is actually trying to double down more than that, and the fact that there's just more stability in general. Obviously TikTok is the opposite of this, where we're still not sure will there be a band, will there be another company owning it? But with YouTube, it's the rare platform that 18 years into its [00:23:00] existence, people are still discovered it, people are still finding ways to be able to tap in. It competes with so many other entertainment platforms in so many ways that whether it's for attention, for content, for revenue, at least from a revenue perspective, it's not too far behind Netflix, if not in the same category, and it's all free content and the international reach, there's a lot there, and I feel like that's stability and that longevity, there's something to be said there.

[00:23:29] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, that is something that I was gonna bring up too, is just how massive and far reaching YouTube's audiences. it's, you know, one of the most global platforms and one of the top like, the platforms that have the most penetration, I guess is how we put it in the data terms of, you know, weekly active users, globally.

[00:23:48] And a question that kind of comes out of that for me though is like, how much overlap there is, I guess between the YouTube audience and the YouTube shorts audience. and I don't really know the answer to that. I mean, you would think that [00:24:00] a lot of habitual YouTube users trickle down to using shorts, but I'm not sure.

[00:24:06] I think YouTube is, a lot of people use, YouTube on a desktop or on a smart tv, not necessarily on the app, on their phones, which is kind of the main place for using shorts. I think Shorts has, I know actually that Shorts has, a younger user base than YouTube as a whole, which also makes sense cuz YouTube just has more users in general.

[00:24:24] But that's like an open question that I have too is how much overlap there is there, because that would impact this ecosystem strategy that they have.

[00:24:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good con to highlight and I feel like. ties into with just user behavior on the platform too. TikTok, there already is this mind thought of this is the place where I can just scroll and get lost for hours. And on YouTube, if you're using the app on the phone, it's a separate tab that you have to click into to get to shorts because they're all at the bottom, whether it's shorts or regular videos.

[00:24:55] You click into shorts and then you hope that it's a similar type of experience. The [00:25:00] difference though, is that YouTube's algorithm is very YouTube overall, that algorithm is very much based, a bit more on YouTube itself is now the second largest search engine we have, and at least from a YouTube itself standpoint, there's a bit more of a likelihood of it giving you repetitive content and repetitive information of, if you've seen one thing, you've probably seen all the things from this type of niche that you're interested in. Almost in the same way that Spotify can do that, because I know that's a very streaming thing to give you so much of what you already know to keep you sticky. But sure, from video it's different especially if you're trying to optimize from an entertainment perspective. You're trying to keep up with the new trends. You're trying to see what's there. This is your opportunity to just scroll and do that. So can YouTube shorts optimized for that as well, because optimizing for that type of algorithm is different than optimizing for the destination music streaming service, especially from a consumer [00:26:00] behavior perspective.

[00:26:01] Tatiana Cirisano: No, and, as you mentioned before with Vine, if you have a smaller user base, you also just don't have as much content to continue serving so that the user can scroll forever. You don't have as many niches to go into like, I think part of the reason TikTok works so well is because since it has.

[00:26:16] like what does it have? Like a billion users more. since it has so many users, every possible niche is on there. So whatever hyper-specific thing you're into, TikTok can serve you the content for that. But I don't know if that's something that these other platforms maybe reels more than shorts, but I don't know if these other platforms really have access to that level of niche.

[00:26:36] Dan Runcie: That's a good point. And on that note, let's talk about Facebook and Meta and everything that they're doing, both with reels on the Instagram side and reels on the Facebook side. I feel like one of the pros there that works out for them is that, it is so well monetized just from an overall business perspective, what they're able to do from ads and how they're able to generate that a bit more so on Facebook than [00:27:00] Instagram, but still they're able to monetize that quite well, and I think that that does work into their favor because at the end of the date, this is obviously less about the artist and the industry perspective, but more from the company perspective.

[00:27:14] Your ability to make that have a high ROI is strong. And at least from recent reports we've heard from Mark Zuckerberg, whether it's at earnings calls or some of the Meta town Hall meetings, it does seem like reels both on Facebook and Instagram are a growing source of eyeballs. And even though that is less money now relative to the more established streams that would only naturally grow over.

[00:27:37] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. you know, you're reminding me too that Facebook did roll out that ad revenue sharing program for creators. and for the music industry for rights holders, which I don't think that that's available on reels yet. I've seen some reports that it could be in the future, but, you know, that is what it seems like the music industry is trying to get TikTok to agree to.

[00:27:58] so, you know, I would imagine that's a better [00:28:00] deal, you know, from the music side of things, and that's definitely important to all of us.

[00:28:03] Dan Runcie: For sure. Any other pros from Instagram or Facebook?

[00:28:08] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, I think, they already have huge built-in user bases, which is, useful. They're kind of, they don't have to ask users to download a new app or like open a new tab the way, or I guess it's the same as YouTube shorts, but it feels a bit more built into what users already doing on the platform.

[00:28:28] But that kind of also leads me to another point that I've been thinking about with this is, it's so interesting how like TikTok is an app, but on these other platforms it's a feature. Like TikTok is a standalone app for short form video, but when you go on Instagram reels, it's just another feature in the toolbox.

[00:28:43] Kind of similar to how, you know, when Snapchat had stories, originally had stories, Instagram just added that as a feature and kind of stole the concept away. And it was, it worked because it was just another tool in the toolbox for its users. I don't know if that's a pro or a con, but it's an interesting [00:29:00] differentiator to me.

[00:29:00] they're positioning this as just another tool. I don't know.

[00:29:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think you maybe think of two things there, so I think that new features like that do work best when there is a audience that is either searching for this answer or searching for this type of solution that's already tapped in with how they consume and how they naturally engage with the platform. And I think that's been one of the differentiating factors between the copycat attempts from Facebook that work and the ones that don't work.

[00:29:31] Like why I think that Instagram stories took off in a ways is because, In a way, even more so than it did for a Snapchat, is that you had this core group of people, influencers, who were already using Instagram, but there's just so much pressure to post these perfect photos on the main feed. So stories helped, co helped solve that, and it helped solve that in a way that.

[00:29:54] even more so for that target audience on Instagram, because Snapchat didn't really have as many [00:30:00] influencers, at least to the same extent. Instagram still had a much larger group. So it's like that group that our, the group stole the feature bin, that feature was even more relevant cuz they had more of the target audience than you ever did.

[00:30:11] That was already relevant to like, how they were going about it in a way where I feel like some of Facebook's other things like facebook dating for instance, that they've like started and I don't even know if it's still going on. But sure, you have all the active users that naturally would want to, like most of the people using Match or Tinder probably already have Facebook accounts, but that isn't like tapped into like how they naturally use the platform.

[00:30:34] And I bring that up in this case because I think that reels is a behavior that is more closely aligned to the Instagram experience than shorts is to the YouTube experience because there was already a mindless nature to some extent of how Instagram was being used. Sure, I know there's differences based on to the point you mentioned earlier of people saying, Hey, I wanna see [00:31:00] my friends.

[00:31:00] Not necessarily all this to other stuff, but there's still a mindlessness to seeing your friends or just scrolling through the

[00:31:07] feed and.

[00:31:08] Tatiana Cirisano: that's a really point.

[00:31:09] Dan Runcie: And YouTube didn't really have that scrolling through the feed dynamic. Sure, the algorithm could suggest things, but the algorithm suggested things in a way that was almost closer to Spotify's algorithm suggesting things than it was to Instagram.

[00:31:21] suggest you the next thing.

[00:31:23] Tatiana Cirisano: That's such a good point. And it reminds me about how I was saying before, like people on Instagram will run out of stuff from their friends to look at. So maybe reels is the solution, maybe it's like going back to what you're saying about like solving a user need. Maybe it's you run out of things from your friends.

[00:31:40] Here's reels where you can scroll mindlessly forever and see content from people you don't know. I don't know. That's a great point.

[00:31:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, thank you. It's something I've thought about too, because I feel like, yeah, running outta content is clearly a thing, cuz I feel like we've all had those moments on Instagram where, we're taping this now, it's almost March. You'll see posts [00:32:00] from the end of December that come through on something and you're like, wait, what?

[00:32:03] Why am I getting this now? Like this isn't even timely anymore, but it's something that went viral then. And that obviously isn't something that happens on TikTok in that same way.

[00:32:11] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, you you don't get a thing on TikTok that says you're up to date. When I get that on Instagram, like , when I get that on Instagram, I'm like, that's how I know I've spent too much time on this app. It's the equivalent of Netflix going, are you still

[00:32:23] Dan Runcie: Right. You still there?

[00:32:25] Tatiana Cirisano: you don't get that on TikTok if you got that on TikTok, like I need, someone needs to help you.

[00:32:32] That's such a good point. That's such a good point. So yeah,

[00:32:35] Dan Runcie: Some of the cons, I will say just with reels, both from Facebook and with Instagram, though a lot of ads and a lot of ads, and this is part of the double-edged sword about how well it's monetized, right? But a lot of ads that I don't hear people complaining as much about ads on the other platforms.

[00:32:53] Tatiana Cirisano: Mm-hmm. , that's something, I hadn't even thought about here, and you're totally right. many more ads on those platforms for sure.[00:33:00]

[00:33:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think too, just given that point I mentioned about influencers being a core demographic for Instagram overall because that's been the core audience there. How does that translate necessarily as much to artists? And I know that there's some overlap there with some artists who very much position themselves as influencers.

[00:33:18] But if you're an artist who really isn't about influencing in that way, is ls going to be as effective, relatively speaking, compared to some of the other short form video platforms.

[00:33:29] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, and I think that also gets to the, cultures that are different on these platforms like I think similar to what you were saying about how Instagram influencers like stories because they could be more off the cuff. I think reels still has a feeling of being a bit more professional and less casual than TikTok.

[00:33:47] TikTok feels a bit more casual, off the cuff weird. You don't get as much weird content on Instagram reels. It's a lot more curated and, professionalized. and it's interesting because I actually had, as one of my [00:34:00] pros to talk about something that I've just, I don't know if this is still true, but something that I've heard from marketers, music marketers in the past is that, Instagram just has more trust with brands than TikTok and other platforms that are new because they've been using it for so long.

[00:34:12] they know what the deal is like. It just has, better relationships in that respect. but if that's also leading to more ads on the platform, then it's kind of a pro and a con.

[00:34:21] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. That's a great point. The brand piece too, and I know that TikTok is clearly trying to do it with some of the reports they've put out some of the positioning trying to get itself to be seen as a home for brands to be able to tap in. But Instagram has owned that space for quite some time.

[00:34:37] Tatiana Cirisano: Exactly.

[00:34:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah, any other pros and cons on reels before we move?

[00:34:42] Tatiana Cirisano: Well, I guess one other thing I'll say, this kind of applies to everything, but you've made me think during this conversation. I would love to know what percentage of people on each of these platforms are lurking versus also posting content. cuz I think that would impact our idea of like how deep the trove of content can go and how that impacts the [00:35:00] algorithm and the niches you can get into likeI sort of have a theory that because TikTok is a bit more casual and off the cuff, it might have more of a, percentage of its users are posting content. Like I've never, I don't think I would ever make a reel. It feels very influencer to me, but I would post a TikTok cuz whatever, like, it just feels a little bit more casual.

[00:35:17] So I think that's an interesting question to me is what percentage are creators and what percentage are just like passive users?

[00:35:25] Dan Runcie: That is a really good question. Yeah, it would be good to see that, right? Because I feel like TikTok kind of has two things going forward one, it does seem less formal from a content release perspective of just being able to share it. But on the other hand too, anytime you get into the absolute numbers of over 1 billion, approaching 2 billion monthly active users specifically on this feature of the short form, you know, For You page, it does lend itself to likelihood.

[00:35:56] Each time you go outside of that like concentric circle, I feel like it's a higher [00:36:00] likelihood of attracting more lurkers than hardcore users. But it'll be great data to be able to see. That's a really good point.

[00:36:06] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. We'll have to put that in a survey.

[00:36:09] Dan Runcie: I know, I know. We'll have to get those answers somewhere, but so now that we've talked about each of these, TikTok is the company that is clearly in the lead, both from a reach perspective, how long it's been established with this particular platform itself, and outside of the potential government sanctions or anything there, is there anything that you could see that could change the likelihood of that continuing relative to these other two services?

[00:36:34] YouTube shorts and Instagram and Facebook reels.

[00:36:37] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, the thing that immediate. Comes to mind for me is it's licenses with music and its relationships with music knowing that those are negotiations that are happening as we speak. I think if TikTok were to suddenly, I guess this is the thing that they're kind of trying to test in Australia, but if TikTok were to suddenly lose a lot of popular music, what would that do to the platform?

[00:36:59] [00:37:00] so I think that's the first question that comes to mind for me, just from, you know, music industry stand

[00:37:06] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I hear that. I could see that I thought about this too, and I had a tough time thinking about something that could really shift things. I do wonder about, If monetization itself and revenue generation does become an issue for TikTok moving forward, how that can shape the nature of the experience of the platform, right? Because meta and Google being YouTube's parent company are both so much more established. They've been around for years generating revenue at a pretty steady clip. And while at least the way TikTok is right now, it does have the advantage of being under bite dance, which has several, you know, has a lot of money coming in as well.

[00:37:49] I do wonder how profitable that will be. And obviously we saw how meta adapted to try to make money, where we're complaining about how [00:38:00] many ads there would be on the platform, could any potential changes there from the need to get more money, change that user experience in a way that could decline the user experience for this core demographic.

[00:38:12] So that's definitely a risk for TikTok.

[00:38:14] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. And also kind of going off that, if any of these platforms were to provide a much better way somehow for the creators on the platform to earn money from it, and then the creators were to go to that platform, that's where the audiences would be. So I think that creators actually have a lot of leverage right now, with that, because I think you can tell that all of these platforms are kind of competing to be the most sort of creator friendly, TikTok is updating, its fund, its creator fund. after getting a lot of complaints about how it was working, YouTube shorts, I think announced an ad revenue share program. So I think that could shake things up is I, I don't know what it would be, but if one of these platforms had ways superior monetization tools for the [00:39:00] creators, I could see the creators migrating there and their audience is following.

[00:39:03] Dan Runcie: Right. Yep. Good point. They all have funds to some extent, but you clearly need more than money if everyone else has it too, right? Like how is it gonna be used in an effective way? So it'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

[00:39:16] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. But at the same time, it's like, even if another, say that another platform say that YouTube Shorts had way better monetization for creators, but it still has a smaller audience. Will creators migrate there and hope that their audiences follow them? Or do they feel like they, it's better to have the larger audience for, you know, leveraging brand deals and things that are outside of the app like.

[00:39:36] Dan Runcie: True. Yeah.

[00:39:37] Tatiana Cirisano: I don't know what would be the better deal.

[00:39:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, that's a good point because I think as we saw in the Spotify era, it was very easy for artists that didn't care about streaming and Spotify to ignore it and be very proud about them ignoring streaming back

[00:39:52] Tatiana Cirisano: Exactly. Yeah.

[00:39:53] Dan Runcie: 16. But all those artists are now on Spotify because they were like, can't beat 'em join them pretty much.

[00:39:59] Tatiana Cirisano: [00:40:00] Right. Like will TikTok always be the place where you can't afford not to be?

[00:40:04] Dan Runcie: Yep, exactly.

[00:40:06] Tatiana Cirisano: I mean, not forever. that's the thing about social media. nothing stays. It's popular, I don't think forever, but you know, how long can it last? I don't know.

[00:40:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, we'll see. We'll see. All right, so a few, quicker questions here as we're getting to the tail line butwanna break this down for which of these platform do you think is in the strongest position for each of these groups? Artists, record labels, and, the parent company, the company itself overall.

[00:40:30] So let's start with artists. Which of these companies do you think creates the most value for artists? And let me not just say companies be clear. Let me talk which short form video platform.

[00:40:41] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. Well, it depends how you define value, I guess. Because if you were saying for having a hit or influencing streaming numbers? I would say TikTok getting discovered, I would say TikTok, but if you're saying for developing a [00:41:00] sustaining long-term fan base, no matter what the size is, I might say YouTube shorts because of that ecosystem that it has.

[00:41:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah.

[00:41:09] Tatiana Cirisano: yeah.

[00:41:09] Dan Runcie: I think that's a good way to frame it cuz I TikTok down as well, just because of the absolute numbers part of the algorithm, how many people you could reach. But I think that your per user approach or even the ability to do conversion of actual fandom. YouTube probably has a bit more tight in there.

[00:41:27] It's kind of like a short term versus long term

[00:41:29] Yeah, definitely. And it's like, okay, do you want this absolute number or do you want who you're most actually able to have as a real super fan down the road?

[00:41:39] Yeah.What about record labels?

[00:41:40] Tatiana Cirisano: That's a good one. Because I mean, we know that by far, YouTube as a whole is generating more for the music industry for record labels than any of these platforms. But when it comes to shorts, I'm not so sure it might be TikTok

[00:41:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah,

[00:41:56] Tatiana Cirisano: in terms of the bottom,

[00:41:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's tough. I was stuck [00:42:00] on that one too. I think my answer still leaned YouTube, but that's probably thinking about, A the overall tie in and the clear

[00:42:07] connection to have it feed into the broader video platform, but then also what it seems like Leo's goals to make that be a clear thing.

[00:42:16] So that was the thought there. And then most value it created for its parent company. Which one would I be saying.

[00:42:24] Tatiana Cirisano: okay, so we have TikTok bite Dance, YouTube, Google, Instagram, Facebook. that's a really good, that's a tough one.

[00:42:32] Dan Runcie: I went with meta for this one because I

[00:42:34] Tatiana Cirisano: That's where I was leaning. That's where I was

[00:42:36] Dan Runcie: it's. , I think it's the most well monetized, at least from what a social media user is able to do and what they're able to generate from a sole Facebook user on average is so much higher than any of these other platforms. And the fact that this could potentially be a funnel into that is strong.

[00:42:55] And I know a lot of people may roll their eyes, if you're a certain generation the thought of a [00:43:00] Facebook reel even as opposed to an Instagram reel. But there's an audience for it and there's a reason why it's there. And that may not line up with contemporary artists, but that may line up with some, you know, other established artists that are clearly trying to reach that base.

[00:43:12] So I feel like there's something there.

[00:43:14] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, I think that makes sense. That's where I was leaning to. These are good questions.

[00:43:18] Dan Runcie: And then I just to close things out, we talked a little bit about this earlier. Well, you touched on this a little bit earlier, but will there be a new form of consumption, content consumption that could take over as the place for music discovery and its top of funnel in the next five years?

[00:43:35] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, that's a great question. What did I touch on earlier that related to.

[00:43:39] Dan Runcie: You were mentioning that there's a new social media platform like every few years that like comes through. So even though TikTok is in like a

[00:43:46] Tatiana Cirisano: yeah.

[00:43:46] Dan Runcie: today, we don't know what it's gonna look like in the future.

[00:43:49] Tatiana Cirisano: So I have a couple answers to this. One thing that I've been really, it's so funny, every time we do this, I always have a timely report coming out on the topic. I don't know how you have like [00:44:00] this somehow, this telepathy to know this, but I was wor I'm working on this report right now that's very related, which is about how potentially the next step for all of this, for music and social media could be, not only are you opening TikTok and adding, you know, a Taylor Swift song to your post, but you're also remixing the song, or you're adding your own vocals or you're actually changing it. So going a step further in what I was saying about, users engaging, creating their own spin on the music that they're fans of, they would be actually changing the song as well.

[00:44:33] Dan Runcie: you wrote about this recently, right? About like

[00:44:35] Tatiana Cirisano: yeah.

[00:44:36] Dan Runcie: and like, and music having its Instagram moment.

[00:44:38] Tatiana Cirisano: Yes, exactly. So the same way that Instagram brought kind of mainstream photography tools to the average consumer, and TikTok did the same thing with videography. when will music be part of that? When will music making and recreation tools actually be part of these platforms? And when I've talked to people who know way more about this than I do, and said, you know, why hasn't [00:45:00] this happened?

[00:45:00] A lot of it is about how hard it is to simplify music making into a mobile screen, let alone like, put it on top of a social app. and that's why, you know, I had the AI tie into my blog post is because, there are companies that are using AI to simplify that process and make this possible. So like Snapchat is a company that is like semi-related to short form video that we haven't talked about, and they have an integration right now with a company called Mini Beats, where you can remix the song that you're putting on your post. so I think that's not necessarily like, it's not a new platform, but it's a new way of consuming like I think creation as a form of consumption is like probably the next step.

[00:45:44] Dan Runcie: And that ends up being the catalyst for how so many of these platforms grow. We talked about TikTok and just how it was able to attract this group of music in some way was the backbone for user generated content. And then it just attracted so much, and everyone's talked about what AI looks [00:46:00] like, I was watching some video the other day about some guy that looked and sounded nothing like Kendrick Lamar had this voice alteration thing that made him sound just like him.

[00:46:09] And while it's not quite AI, I think there's a lot of elements there. So whoever taps that and then that can then be the launchpad for the next thing. Something like that could easily overtake and become the next dominant social media player. But we'll see. It'll take a couple years to get to 1.5 billion

[00:46:26] Tatiana Cirisano: Probably more than five.

[00:46:28] Dan Runcie: probably five.

[00:46:29] Tatiana Cirisano: probably more than five just because of licensing really. But, I mean, I think the interesting thing to note there is this type of behavior is kind of already happening like I notice a lot of with sped up songs and how the music industry actually adopted that after sped up clips were going viral on TikTok, like users are already modifying the songs and then uploading those modified versions.

[00:46:49] So imagine if that capability was actually part of the platform itself.

[00:46:52] Dan Runcie: Right, right. It's like everyone saw DJ Screw make a, you know, huge influence with this for this chopped and screwed music. [00:47:00] So it's only about time that you make it easy to make that accessible for users.

[00:47:04] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. So we'll see.

[00:47:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So we'll see. But Tati, pleasure as always. Thanks for coming on and yeah, we'll definitely have to stay tapped in with what you have coming up next on this topic.

[00:47:14] So relevant to this discussion.

[00:47:15] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, thanks for having me again. Always a pleasure.

[00:47:18]

]]> 2962 no Africa’s Music and Startup Future (with Mr Eazi) https://www.trapital.com/podcast The artist-entrepreneur-investor Mr Eazi has no on-off switch. Who he is in the recording studio, on stage, and on the boardroom are the same. With business and music, Mr Eazi has found parallel industries that allow him to be the same person. He’s founded both emPawa Africa and Zagadat Capital to feed his business appetite. The former invests into African artists and helps them scale. Meanwhile, Zagadat Capital invests into tech startups, most of which are inside the continent.  Then there’s Mr Eazi, the Afrobeats artist. He’s collaborated with the likes of Beyonce and J Balvin, and also taken center stage at Coachella. After taking time away from music amid the pandemic, Mr Eazi is back in album mode now. Holed up in Cape Town currently, Mr Eazi has plans for two new albums this year. I caught up with Mr Eazi to cover his never-ending pursuits in music and business. Here’s everything we chatted about: [0:22] How Mr Eazi is balancing artistry and entrepreneurship [1:40] Similarities between music and startups [6:19] Taking equity stakes in artists and what an “exit” looks like [10:50] How Eazi measures success for Empawa artists  [13:00] Eazi’s investment thesis for startups [18:10] Startup success trends in Africa  [21:30] Lack of capital is biggest challenge to Africa’s startup scene  [29:45] Raising awareness within the continent [32:20] Biggest obstacle that African artists face  [36:52] Uncleared sample on a Bad Bunny song [40:45] Impact of Western companies investing into Africa [47:35] Mr Eazi is in album mode Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Mr Eazi, @mreazi This episode's sponsor is Symphony. Put your fanbase growth on autopilot with the first AI-powered platform that brings all your artist marketing workflows in one place. Learn more at symphony.to/trapital Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Mr. Eazi: part of me deciding to be an artist was reading the book, the Jay-Z book, Empire State of Mind. And that was when I saw it clearly and I was like, oh, wait a minute like this music is a business and the music gives you access, it gives you access to capital, access to the network it puts you, gives you a seat at the table [00:00:20] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital Dan Runcie, this podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more. Who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:48] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have the one and only Mr. Eazi, the artist, entrepreneur. How you doing man? Welcome to the pod. [00:00:56] Mr. Eazi: I'm good. I'm good. I'm chilling. What's, going on [00:00:59] Dan Runcie: Me. I'm good, man. Trying to keep up with you. Trying to keep up with you, man. [00:01:03] Mr. Eazi: I'm trying to keep up with me, bro. [00:01:06] Dan Runcie: Well, let's talk about that because you are someone who sits at this intersection of artist, investor, entrepreneur, and you are doing all of those three jobs and more. And it's also happening at this moment where the entire continent of Africa is booming from an entrepreneurship perspective, booming from a music perspective. [00:01:29] How does it feel right now? How are you operating being at the center of that? [00:01:34] Mr. Eazi: To be honest, I just feel like it's a blessing to be born or to be existing in this time. where like you said, everything is just like taking shape and, you know, yeah, it's exciting and it is for me. It's like every day I'm seeing opportunity left and right and just figuring out what is fun and what is doable and just, you know, going from thinking, oh, I'm an entrepreneur, to oh, I make music. And, it's similar cause it's products at the end of the day, on the bottom line, it's like you're selling music or you're selling some other product. And I thought they were two different things, but you know, I'm seeing how it's one and the same. [00:02:17] It's just exciting to realize that I don't need to be two different people like I still be the same me and operating both walls. [00:02:27] Dan Runcie: So how are they similar for you approaching both music and startups? [00:02:32] Mr. Eazi: So I feel like every artist is like a. because the artist has a brand, has a feel, it's like a service product, it's an emotional product, right? And every artist, you know, that IP, there's an IP with every artist, and the artist usually needs investment to scale. And like coming from, like when I went outta school straight into an incubator program called 440NG and I kind of, there I learned how, you know your idea and your business, you know, you have the idea, you put it together, you iterate as the business keeps on going. So what you thought was the business at the beginning, you know, your customers could give you feedback and then you realize it evolves, it accelerate and you are trying to be as lean as possible and grow to the point where you have that critical volume to sort of like ask, what's the word as, proof that this is a valid idea either via customers or via revenue. And then you try and get to, you know, you try and scale, and you figure out what's your, unique value proposition is, and that's like where the startup, what's your unique value proposition? [00:03:46] Who are your customers? What's the idea? You take it to market, you test it, you go get investment. And it's the same thing with every artist so at the time where I decided to do music full-time, I was in an incubator program, and so I just started to see the similarities with the music. I'm like, okay, let me test it, put it out, people listen to it, you know, gimme the feedback, you know, and the point where I decided I was gonna take the music as a business was when like I got the first person reach out to me and say, Hey, I want to pay you for a verse. So that was the first signifier to let me know that, okay, maybe I'm onto something. [00:04:22] Then I started to have my early fans then Lauryn Hill reached out and said she wanted me to come play at her show. And I thought it was a fluke until I found myself in America performing in Lauryn Hill, coming out to say, I love you, thank you so much for coming. And like all of that is like with a business, with a traditional startup, it could be different things, but for me, the revenue, the number of users, aka the fans, all of that were signifiers. [00:04:51] And then I just needed, you know, the capital to take it to the next level, right? So I think those are the similarities, and I've tried it when I started emPawa it was at the beginning, it was to test if they were one and the same. So I was like, okay, Y Combinator send, you know, picks a few, start a couple of startups, you know, does incubator program put funding and whatnot to them? [00:05:18] And then maybe 20% of them you know, end up working on, and I did that with 100 artists across 11 African countries, over 30,000 entries then picked 100, then gave them the same amount of money, created the emPawa YouTube channel to host their videos, service it the same way, and in the end, start to see the ones that organically started picking up. [00:05:41] And we had success with that. So for me it was like, oh, wait a minute it's one and the same. I've proved this. And that's when emPawa then turn from, you know, the, program I was doing to actually full service music company, because I had proved that it was the same and in the same way you invest in a song. [00:06:01] I remember the first Joeboy song, the visualizer cost me $500, and then the song ended up having like 30 million views in like a year. And you know, Joeboy just went boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So, I start to say, okay, there is a process here and perhaps we could do it with other artists, you know? So to answer your question, that's how I see both as, you know, one and the same in a way. [00:06:28] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I wanna talk about emPawa specifically because this is you bringing so many of those startup concepts to music like you said, you saw Y Combinator is doing. How could you apply that here? The difference though is that with Y Combinator, the promises of course, an exit, so they're hoping this companies get acquired. [00:06:47] They're hoping that they go public in music though. What does that look like for you as someone that is taking equity stakes in the artist? What does your return look like? What does your exit look like? [00:06:59] Mr. Eazi: So, I mean, first off, the return is like when you invest, you know, you invest to create the content, you put it out, put some marketing, and you start to see, you know, the streams coming, the revenue coming, the artist is now doing live shows, getting endorsement deals, you know, you could get four, 5x, 10x multiples, you know, and time. [00:07:24] so that's, one. But secondly, like on a developmental standpoint, you could develop the artist and then a big label comes and says, oh, we wanna upstream. So upstreaming is like a sale. It's like an exit, and you could still have passive rights to get passive income, on the artist. So those are like the kind of like returns and the kind of like exits. [00:07:48] Plus you could just invest in the IP, buy it up, and next thing somebody wants to sample it and then they have to write you a big check. And it could happen now, it could happen in like 10 years, in 15 years time, you know, you could have a record just lined. I'll give you an example, recently the Joeboy record that didn't make it to the Joeboy is one of my artists. [00:08:09] The song didn't make it to his album, and so we then licensed the song to a guy called Lakizon, you know, he puts out the record, you know, there's not so much thought to that. I wake up one day, Bad Bunny has put out, an album and I'm just listening to the album cause I'm a fan and I hear a record there and I'm like, basically what I was trying to say is, so you have that record that didn't make it to the album, Right? And it's just there and we license it to this guy and the next thing the record appears on a Bad Bunny album. [00:08:43] And that's like the biggest artist in the world last year by a lot of metrics. And so that's like an example, you know, an exit because you make this record and then boom, and the upsides are like, you know, so high. And right now on the market, even if you wanted, you are seeing, you know, my mentor, one of my mentors, Merck Mekadalas, you see how many multiples from 10 to 23, 24xlast year's revenue on, you know, buying rights for music. So I think there's multiple exits and even just the music and music IP as an asset class has been proven to be a valid asset class by Merck and the likes. For instance, I was, I was part of the deal, the KKR deal that bought, I don't know if you saw that some time ago, that bought a law of the rights, including the Weeknd et cetera. [00:09:36] I was part of that deal, via one of the companies, and you could see how you could see what an exit looks like. So there's multiple exits for music, whether it's an upstreaming deal from the label or it's a straight up acquisition of the catalog, or it's just multiples of revenue, the artist is now beginning to earn or if your label, you could get your entire label could become upstreams or you could go into a JV type situation. [00:10:06] Dan Runcie: So that speaks more to the flexibility that's offered with being able to invest in music. It isn't just this one time event that you're hoping for as a startup investor. [00:10:17] Mr. Eazi: Yeah. 100 percent. [00:10:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah And with that too, you mentioned that you have a hundred artists that at least came through the first cohort, over 30,000 had applied and when you are measuring your success for them, I'm sure that each of the things you mentioned are the things that you hope for, but along the way, what are some of those key performance indicators or what are some of those things that you're looking for to hope that traction can be gained to hopefully get to the point where you do have, positive financial event that comes. [00:10:51] Mr. Eazi: I mean, it starts with like hyper local recognition. So, you know, I give example, there was this like I think she was 18 or 17 at the time, Nik, her name is Nikita and she's from Kenya. She had joined the program, she didn't make it to the top 10, but we put out the video and you know, that song started to gain local traction in Kenya even though she didn't make it to the Final 10. [00:11:17] And by local traction, I mean like number of downloads, it made it to radio, you know, it made it to press picking it up. And even though she wasn't part of the software and I didn't give her full on funding, she got signed to Universal. So for me that's a testament of like the success and those are like KPIs like, okay, does it get to radio in your local country? [00:11:40] Does it get, you know, that local, you know, appreciation from the fans in your country? And then when does it start to transcend, and there's nothing wrong with you having a popular song in Kenya or in Tanzania, but by the time it starts to go from Tanzania, you know, to rest of East Africa and then comes to the west, you know, those are the things you look out for and, you know, next level is by the time you start getting booked for shows based on the 1, 2, 3 singles you put out, [00:12:11] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. That makes sense. Let's shift gears a bit to startups, because I know that's the other space that you're actively in. What is your thesis for investing in startups? [00:12:22] Mr. Eazi: Right now, what I do is like, you know, I can bring some form of value to. So when I look at like the idea, or like when my team, you know, sends me some deal flow and we kind of walk through it, it's like, okay, aside the money, what else can we bring to this business? You know? And if I'm able to spot some extra form of value I can bring to help the business kill. [00:12:53] Then I want to invest, you know, it could be marketing. Can I add some marketing? Can I add some of my experience here? Can I leverage on my network in this other side? Aside the money, and most of the investments I've been making haven't been personal. They've been via my collectives, Zagadat Capital, and Zagadat Capital is basically, for now, it's 12 people like myself, young, successful African boys or girls who usually, you know, find it boring to speak to the financial guys and you know, have some form of liquidity. And so when we get the deal flow, and I just look at who's in the collective and who can add value, then we bring it to, the collective and then we invest. [00:13:45] So it's majorly been, it's like 90% being Africa focused because I feel like there's so much opportunity, on the continent and also on the sentimental level. The amount of impact the investment does when it's, on the continent makes, is something that's bigger than just the money. [00:14:07] And the money is great like, you know, we've seen a lot of African companies hit and cross a billion dollar evaluations to become unicorns. so you know that, can happen. But at the same time, the impact, and it's always fun when I go to an office that I'm an investor in of the like employees, they're excited that Mr. Eazi is in our office and Mr. Eazi is a shareholder like, you can't buy that. And I think that's what I always wanted because like part of me deciding to be an artist was reading the book, the Jay-Z book, Empire State of Mind. And that was when I saw it clearly and I was like, oh, wait a minute like this music is a business and the music gives you access, it gives you access to capital, access to the network it puts you, gives you a seat at the table and you know your merch, merchandising could be like the three cap that chance the rapper does, or it could be Uber or it could be, you know, Power Pay, which I've invested in that, you know, is the number one mobile money focused payments aggregate on Africa doing over 1 million transactions a day, you know, and so it's, different things and I know how I can bring value beyond my, cash it and just watch it grow. And it's exciting [00:15:28] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. So that collective, that operates a lot like a syndicate. You all are sharing deal soon where you can add value. What stage do you normally invest in and how much money are you normally putting into startups? [00:15:41] Mr. Eazi: You know, it's different like we've done like some seed stage. we did a company that was looking at listing last year on the LSE. We've done growth stage as well, so it really depends, it depends on where it comes to us, and it could be as low as, you know, 25K check, which just gets maybe if it's a 25 K check, I might just take 50% of it and just say, Hey guys, do the rest, and I just put it on the platform we use and boom, boom, boom, everybody just clicks and it's, done. Once it's done, it's done like I just invested in a platform called Ruka Hair, and it is a startup that, you know, provides hair for, people of African descent based out of London. [00:16:30] And that was a small check for, and it is growth stage, you know, so it really varies. and there's no rule. Yeah. [00:16:41] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Yeah, keeping it flexible and gives you the opportunity to see everything that's coming through. What are some common trends that you're seeing? What are some things that you're seeing from the founders or from the startups that are coming through, especially the ones that are getting markups and getting closer to exits? [00:16:59] Mr. Eazi: I'm seeing like, you know, companies that solve fundamental, problems. You know, and I know there's so much bars on FinTech, it's like everybody just gets a hardon for African FinTech. But like, for instance is, if this products are solving specific, like there's a company called Eden Life, which I invested in. [00:17:26] And what this company does is like, you know, there are a lot of people like myself who, we don't in town enough, like enough for us to like have a chef and all of that. And we have very busy schedules, so we want like meal preps delivered to us and we want like our laundry picked up, you know, that's a very middle class, sort of like early into the job market, like pre family kind of types. And so that kind of product is a product that's like valid because like you're solving a particular need, you know, or PISA for instance, that are invested in. So PISA gives remittance based lending. [00:18:13] to, people in Mexico. So you know, the love Mexicans in the US sending money back to, Mexico to their family and their loved ones. And PISA uses that data of how much you get your current every month like my mom and dad, I put them on allowance. Like I pay them an allowance every month, Right? So we use like, by the way, for clarity they don't need it like they're good, but it's just something I do. And the other people in cultures like African culture, like in Africa, it's a pride for you, even if your dad is a billionaire, like being able to do something for your dad is like, it's like a pride. [00:18:53] It's like you've achieved, right? So you have people sending money back home, you know, either to Mexico or to different parts of Africa to either family that need it or to do stuff with it, like build a house back home or to help the family school fees or whatever, or just out of sentiment, like, it's like paying your tithes. [00:19:15] I don't know if you're Christian, it's like when you pay 10% of your income to the church. It's something like that. and then there's all that data, all that data because it's like salary, right? it comes every month, usually on a certain day. So PISA uses that information to provide loans to people. [00:19:34] And that's like a need, that's a specific need. So that's what we are seeing, Yeah. [00:19:40] Dan Runcie: What are some of the bigger challenges right now for startups in Africa? [00:19:45] Mr. Eazi: I think one of the biggest challenges is, you know, getting funding and you see a lot of, like African startups, YC has been doing a great job, but there are, you know, and like, future Africa, which I'm part of and I'm an advisor, you know, investing in these projects. But raising fund is like so hard. [00:20:07] There's still a hesitance when it comes to African startup raising funds, especially at seed stage. And usually this is not a lot of money. It's like from 20K checks to like even hundred is a lot of money, you know, but that 50 k to, get you into flight mode. So I think that's the biggest issue is not lack of ideas, it's, you know, getting funding, especially local funding that's not a lot of local funding sources. There's few options like the YC's and it's hard to get in generating that local funding is still a problem as a lot of the, you know, organizations and a lot of investors are still trying to understand this whole tech investment and valuation. [00:20:55] I have my uncles ask me, you said this company is, is what, $20 million? Do they have 20 million cash in their account or do they have, buildings? Where's the building? Where's the physical asset, you know, it's that culture going from brick and mortar to technology and understanding evaluation and all of that. [00:21:15] And, then you have sectors that are now like so hot that valuations are going crazy you know, And you have, like, depending on what sector you are, a lot of the countries are just catching up to technology. And in some places there are no laws written for the kind of products you are creating. [00:21:38] So if you're not in sync with the regulators, the regulators might pass a law that is detrimental to your business and all of a sudden you wake up one morning and your successful business is now killed just like the motorbike railing company. I forgotten the name in Lagos. That was really growing and then with one day regulations like no motorbike, transportation in Lagos, boom, dead. [00:22:04] So, I think it's not just in Africa-peculiar problem. It's like, for instance, with crypto and, you know, a lot of, you know, countries trying to understand what is going on. So you're having innovation outpacing regulation and you know, if there's no proper interaction you are having like regulations could just like be the end of use. [00:22:28] So I think access to capital, and in some sectors, depending on your sector, regulation as well could be a major setback. [00:22:38] Dan Runcie: The access to capital piece, I could see that, especially since the friends and family round is such a key piece, or having the angels outta there, such a key piece to help make that happen. But if the people that have the financial means are fewer and far between, you know, whether it's folks like you or others that are in your syndicate or maybe some of the other co-investors you have, that means that the deal flow that you all get is heightened even more so because there's just so fewer other places, which makes you all needing to be even more selective, I can imagine, than you maybe otherwise prefer to be. I mean, how do you feel in that perspective as someone that wants to see the space grow, but you know that you can't back everybody even though you know, I'm sure inherently you wish you would, but you still have your own rubrics. You still have your way that you evaluate things, and that likely has to be even heightened given the number of deals that you're seeing. [00:23:32] Mr. Eazi: Yeah, I mean like, well one of the things I pray, I have some days, fuck you money. Do you understand? To just like, because like 1.2 billion people in Africa on the continent. And it's like, if you think of the amount of money that comes back to Africa from the African Diaspora, it's like, I think it's like over a trillion dollars a year. [00:23:54] So there's so much opportunity. And, but like you said, what this does is it makes things a little bit harder for people, you know, entrepreneurs who need the money and the proof is in the pudding. Like I always say, like although it takes time and things are changing, don't get me wrong, things are changing. [00:24:15] They are more local, VCs, funding, but like I probably know like five people with networks over a hundred million, right? But now, for me to get to the point where, and these are people who've, amass all this wealth with brick and mortar businesses. So now you know, there's a job to do to sort of like show proof, show validity that, hey, I invested at this point, it's not for Gen Z it's not a pyramid scheme. [00:24:50] And like show people and then you get more people, coming in. And I have seen like some of my friends who are like billionaires now start to set up separate funds to say, okay, you know what? I don't really know what this tech thing is about for, but you know, put the money in future Africa or put it in some other fund and try to learn. [00:25:11] So it's more sort of like publicity and sometimes the drop, the setbacks are when there's a big startup out of the continent that then runs into all sorts of scandals and then, you know, it causes five steps backward. And that's not peculiar to Africa like, I mean, you seen what happened to ftx, right? So that happens everywhere. [00:25:35] The only differences, you know, because it's still kind of new. It causes more negative effects, you know, so I think there needs to be more education, more pr to the successes of these companies. Every success is a success and should be, you know, communicated and things would get better because there is capital on the continent. [00:26:00] There is like lose capital on, the continent looking for where to invest, you know? So I mean, things are changing like Future Africa. I always keep mentioning Future Africa, like they've been able to show that, you know, they know what they're doing. There is a method to the madness. They could deliver results in terms of like revenue, you know, they invested in Move, which is a company that provides, you know, the cars for Uber drivers and it's, you know, I think it's now a unicorn and that's like a very particular need because, you know, drivers need cars, but they don't have the capital to purchase the cars, right? And going through the banking routes, you are gonna have to bring collateral, your mom's name, your grandmother's house, plus the high interest, you know, so they've identified, and this has been a problem, it's still a problem to today that they've been able to solve. [00:26:54] So I think the more people know about this, the more education, the more things will open up. [00:27:01] Dan Runcie: The PR piece you mentioned is interesting because from my side, living in the states, I'll see the articles about a company like Carry1st, which I do think has had a fair amount of PR, I feel like one of their announcements got an got an article in the Hollywood Reporter, so I remember seeing things like that, but I feel like it does become fewer and farther between, at least from what you are seeing, from the awareness of some of these [00:27:27] Mr. Eazi: Yeah, you're correct and it's not so much I understand why like there's a lot of PR outside looking PR like you said, you know, New York Times, you know, LA blah, blah, blah, because that's where the money's coming from, right? But like, I'm talking more intra-Africa PR like for the money on the continent, you know, because that's like easily, like it's right there in your face, you know, there's enough money in Lagos for them not to be any need to raise capital from outside . You get what I'm saying? There's so much capital in Lagos, like from Lagos, you feel me? Or from Rwanda, you know, and, Rwanda is trying to position itself as startup, you know, pro-startup investing, you know, so there's money on the continent and it's like [00:28:22] that's what I mean by PR and publicity and awareness. if I wasn't friends with, like, I met in, was co-founder of, Flutterwave with and then Andela, you know, and then Move. So three unicorns, right? And, you know, we've been friends and we've been investing together. if there was not that proximity to him or to Shola the founder of Paystack that got bought by Stripe, I wouldn't know that this was going on. [00:28:50] You feel me? Maybe, you know, I wouldn't have known. So that's what I mean, you know, because like every A-list, Afro-B artist can be you know, can be invested, you know, so that's exactly what I mean. [00:29:08] Dan Runcie: It is interesting you bring up the music piece because I'd be curious to hear how you feel some of these challenges that African startups may face. How do the African artists themselves fare in that regard? Do you think that they have similar challenges with funding or with regulations in that way? [00:29:26] Mr. Eazi: There's regulation issues, like for instance, collecting, publishing revenue on the continent. It's a joke, right? [00:29:34] Dan Runcie: Why is that? [00:29:34] Mr. Eazi: Or collecting streaming revenue because like for you to be able to collect publishing revenue, you need the government to enforce the laws for the radio stations to pay you, you know, publishing royalties on the music they place for the bars to be able to pay for what they play, like for the use of your music. So you need strong in a lot of African countries, these laws are there, but there's no enforcement because I would say it's worse for creatives because people still look at the creative sector as a joke. [00:30:08] The orange economy is like, ah, that's not really business like that's just young people with dreadlocks, just singing and dancing and jumping across the world. Yes, they hear the music everywhere. Yes, now things are getting better because they're seeing teams at the Grammys, they're seeing Burna Boy, you know, and whiskey doing Madison Square Garden, but there's not a lot of education for them to really understand the business of music or creativity. [00:30:36] So even, I remember like two years ago I spoke to almost all the bank MDs, or three years ago, almost all the bank MDs in Nigeria trying to convince them on why music is a business is a valid business, but I couldn't get funding. And that's me being a successful African artist showing the revenue, showing all of that, like I once got on a panel with, you know, a financial institution that was meant that. they have a fund, they have like a 500 million dollar fund for investing in creatives. And I was on a panel with somebody there and the person said, oh, it is impossible to protect music IP, it is difficult to protect music IP, and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, What? And like, are you kidding me? Like, there's Shazam technology, there's like, every song has an ISRC code and like if you upload the song in Kenya or in in Afghanistan, like on YouTube, like it will pick it up instantly. So when you have a situation where you have an institution that has up to a billion to invest in creatives. But you are having the key stakeholders who decide who gets what telling you or speaking out confidently and saying is hard to protect the IP, you know, then that just shows you where it sucks. So there's still a lot, but I feel like that's why there needs to be more education, you know, just like for startups to music, to let people realize that this is a business, like there's revenue to be earned. Not just live revenue, like streaming revenue, publishing revenue, especially now that the world is looking to Africa. Like you're seeing early starters jumping on Afro Beats records, like, what's that song? [00:32:31] Essence, Essence was a hit song before Justin Bieber jumped on it. It was already a global smash. Peru was a, global smash before, Ed Sheeran jumped on it. So you are having like pure Afro Beats records in our local language produced locally in some hotel room in Lagos, you know, going on to be big songs globally without any major support from without necessarily, you know, I know A and R like support, like his producers locally. And you're seeing this, so you do know that this is the time, or you know, like the example I gave, you know, Bad Bunny, you know, sampling a Joeboy record and putting it on his album, putting an Afro Beats record on his album, you know, that's an ex example. [00:33:18] Dan Runcie: And by the way, that was declared properly and like I'm about to go, you know, go crazy with the lawyers to make sure I get my bread. And more importantly, the writers and the producers get, their due credit and revenue and, you know, Did Bad Bunny's team reach out before this? [00:33:39] Mr. Eazi: No, no, no, I literally just listened to Bad Bunny's album and I just heard Joe Boy's voice at the end of the record, and I was like, I've heard this record before. And then I realized is a record, I didn't make it to his album. And I'm like, wait a minute. And then my team start speaking to them since May of, last year. [00:33:55] And it's just back and forth to the point where I'm like, okay, you know what, you guys have had fun with this. Like, I'm just going brazen on this, let's get lawyers. Let's make it like a proper lawsuit. But what I'm trying to, or you have, you know, Beyonce, you know, doing the Lion King, the gift and having created from all of Africa put it so like, you know, you are having Drake, you know, with Whiskey on one dance you're having Ed Sheeran, Justin Bieber jump on multiple Afro Beats records that are Afro Beats records. You're having people more and more people sampling Afro Beats records, you know, and maybe not giving proper credit or do, or you are having, like I once produce. and was on co-produced and wrote and featured on a record involving Bad Bunny on the Joint album and Afro Beats record. [00:34:45] So you're seeing is becoming more global and global. So we need to be able to tell these stories to the funding sources back home to establish that this is indeed a business. So it's education the same way education for the startups, but even more for music because music was never, and creatives, you know, was never looked at as a valid business. [00:35:09] It was looked at as things, people who don't graduate from school or people who just wanna be jokers do. But right now people are sitting, wait a minute, wow, that artist bought car that artist's bought a house. that artist did this, did that or Grammys or this, that, that. So, but there still needs to be more information back home to the business side of the music to know that behind that sold out. [00:35:36] MSG is a check, and behind that billboard is a check, you know, and even the TikTokers, like I was speaking to someone at the bank and explaining to my bank MD friend that, you know, I showed him a lot of payments, like TikTokers in Nigeria are getting paid as much as $10,000 to put up a post on their TikTok. [00:35:59] 17 year old, 18 year old, you know, and I had to show this and he was like, what? Are you serious? And then he went back to ask his kids. And find out that, oh wow, this is a thing, you know? So it's that education, I mean, because there is the capital on the continent, it's just like, how do you get it? [00:36:17] And it is a lot of work to do to basically explain and explain and explain. And one needs to have the patience. And it's hard to do that while still running my label, doing everything I'm doing, putting out music for myself, you know, so, you know, but thankfully I'm not the only one doing it, Don Jazzy is doing it. [00:36:39] Olamide is doing it. They're more examples. So one way or the other people are saying it. [00:36:44] Dan Runcie: How do you feel about the investment in African music that has come from the West? So thinking about Universal Music group opening up record label in Africa and some of the other majors having different concentration in Nigeria or elsewhere, how has that been and what type of impact has that had, if any, on your end? [00:37:07] Mr. Eazi: I mean, I think it's good. It's a good signifier because all these labels were in Africa from the years before Fella, right? You had all these labels in Nigeria before, you know, the nationalization where, you know, the government had passed that all the companies should be nationalized and the labels got sold to local owners. [00:37:26] So you are just having, you have Majek Fashek that was on the late, late show, the late night show in 1991, bro. So when people say, oh, African music is then becoming popular. It's been popular. And it's coming back again with technology and everything. So I think it's good. I think the more, you know, major labels coming to Africa, but not just as, or let's test to see what happens. [00:37:52] But the more investment that comes, the more structure there will be for the business and the more signifiers, you know, to show people who wanna invest, you know, so yeah, I welcome it. And I think there should be more funding and there should be more, like the local companies should be autonomous, you know, I think that's been the only drawback with the majors, pardon of me, I might be wrong. Don't quote me where you are seeing the local, you know, Universal Nigeria or Sony or whatever, you know, that lookout team not having a lot of, autonomy in the checks they're writing to the artists or taking those risks they have to get approval from maybe South Africa or, you know, London or LA. [00:38:43] Meanwhile, everything is happening on the ground in Lagos, so you are having distributors. So I think a lot of the most recent successes have been by more distributors than record label in breaking artists. So more like Empire or ONErpm or the Orchid or emPawa or, you know, Believe, because these distributors are more flexible and have been able to give a lot more autonomy to the local guys who are running, these local companies to write those checks because like, what is somebody in London like with all due respect, like I always say this as a joke. There's no songwriter in the world that would've written, I don't care how many Grammys you've, gotten, you cannot write Soco, Soco, Soco, Soco, Soco, baby. [00:39:42] You. That's the Wizkid song, you can't write that song or, one of my favorite artists Wande Coal, there's a part of his song where he just spits jibberish, like he don't mean anything, like it's a vibe. So like without due respect to your A and R ears, you don't know the music like even me, I'm from Nigeria, but I always have to be updated. [00:40:09] So there needs to be more investment and more autonomy. But I love it like the more labels come in and the more distribution companies come in and there's this competition, the more money is invest invested. And when you invest money, then you start to structure it then you start to say, Hey, why are we not making as much money locally? [00:40:29] Okay, let's invest in touring, you know, in Nigeria, in on the continent. let's go lobby for enforcement of collection of royalties. So, yeah. [00:40:40] Dan Runcie: Have you seen any success stories from the major record label side in Africa yet? [00:40:48] Mr. Eazi: There's none that comes to mind in terms of breaking an artist. So you have Wizkid signed, you have Diplo signed, you have Burna Boy signed. you know, and this is like A-list, A-list, right? But if you look at all the artists that have broken Buju for instance, initially signed to Burna Boy and then Empire, broke him, you know, that's Buju, Fire Boy via Empire and Olamide's YBNteams, you know, independently broke with, her record. I think she's been upstreamed now. So in terms of sort of like carrying that conversation, you know, outside to the rest of the world, yes, I'm sure there's been a lot of success like the Wizkid record, you know, Burna Boy, entire Renaissance. [00:41:44] And you could go on and on, but in terms of actually finding an artist and breaking the artist, there's not a lot of successes. And I think that's down to autonomy because, you know, you have some executives moves from the label to the distributors and do well, you know, we just understanding you know, how to a and r and how to put our music, on the continent, and you can't just bring like somebody who's of Nigerian descent and just expect that they don't understand. Like, I am Nigerian, but every time I go back to Lagos, I'm like, whoa, the sound has changed, you know? So that underground on the ground, you know, and there's a lot of work. [00:42:31] Dan Runcie: Definitely, and yeah, I know that there's so much interest, but like you said, if they don't have the control or the ability to really make decisions on their own, I can easily see why an Empire or some of the other distributors have been able to have success there. But Mr. Eazi, man, this was great. I feel like you gave us a snapshot of where everything is right now on music and investing side. [00:42:53] But before we let you go, for you, what's big on the road for you still beginning of the year? What's big on the deck for you? What do you got coming up? [00:43:02] Mr. Eazi: I mean, I kind of like needed a break from putting out music and touring and when COVID happened I was like, oh, thank God, like because I was battling with, oh, if I should, I pause, like it was just routine doing the same thing and it was like too much for me. So I was able to have that pause, and put some of the attention towards like growing emPawa with my co-founder. [00:43:27] And then leaving it to him to sort of like, you know, and come back to iterate, iterate change the model, blah, blah, blah, build the team. And I just went off and started doing like investment and putting more time in the startups I was investing in. And now, I'm in Cape Town recording. I'm putting out two albums this year, one in September and one in, I think April or May. [00:43:55] So I'm just recording that now and I feel like, and now I want to go back on the road, but not first as my usual live band touring, but first as sort of like a curator, where I bring like, you know, the way Major Lazer tour where they have the sound system with Walshy and Diplo and Ape Drums. But instead of Diplo and Ape Drums, I select like the DJs, maybe one playing Afro Pop, one playing Ama one playing something else. [00:44:27] And I am the Walshy Fire, sort of like putting it together, hype man MC. So that's what I want to tour. The first part of the year once I put out the Chop Life album, so that's called Chop Life. To chop life means to enjoy life. So I'm making an sort of Afro dance album that I'll put out first and then I will talk as Chop Life sound system with doing these parties. [00:44:53] you know, of majorly Afro Beat parties, sound system across the world. And then I dropped the album, the second album, and I taught as, okay, this is my album tour. So that's the plan. Hopefully I'm able to complete the first album. The second album is done, it is just in mixing a mastering, that's the September one. [00:45:13] It's done just in mix. And my string phase and then this first one, I'm recording. That's what I'm recording right now. Recording downstairs. [00:45:21] Dan Runcie: Nice. Nice. Well, looking forward to all of that, man, and thank you. No, this has been a pleasure. And yeah, so people that wanna follow along and keep up with all that, where should they go to follow you? [00:45:30] Mr. Eazi: Follow me everywhere on social media @mreazi, M R E A Z I, Mr. Eazi. Yeah, everywhere, everywhere on social media. [00:45:44] And I wanna see you at one of my shows. You have to come maybe when I do the parties, where are you right now? [00:45:49] Dan Runcie: Me, I'm in San Francisco [00:45:51] Mr. Eazi: Cool. I'm, sure I'll be coming around LA, San Fran, at some point [00:45:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah, come through. [00:45:57] Mr. Eazi: I'd send you an invite, [00:45:58] Dan Runcie: Definitely, definitely. All right, man. We'll talk soon. [00:46:01] Mr. Eazi: All right. Have a good one. Thank you. [00:46:03] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. [00:46:24] Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.  Thu, 16 Mar 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Africa’s Music and Startup Future (with Mr Eazi) full Dan Runcie The artist-entrepreneur-investor Mr Eazi has no on-off switch. Who he is in the recording studio, on stage, and on the boardroom are the same. With business and music, Mr Eazi has found parallel industries that allow him to be the same person. He’s founded both emPawa Africa and Zagadat Capital to feed his business appetite. The former invests into African artists and helps them scale. Meanwhile, Zagadat Capital invests into tech startups, most of which are inside the continent.  Then there’s Mr Eazi, the Afrobeats artist. He’s collaborated with the likes of Beyonce and J Balvin, and also taken center stage at Coachella. After taking time away from music amid the pandemic, Mr Eazi is back in album mode now. Holed up in Cape Town currently, Mr Eazi has plans for two new albums this year. I caught up with Mr Eazi to cover his never-ending pursuits in music and business. Here’s everything we chatted about: [0:22] How Mr Eazi is balancing artistry and entrepreneurship [1:40] Similarities between music and startups [6:19] Taking equity stakes in artists and what an “exit” looks like [10:50] How Eazi measures success for Empawa artists  [13:00] Eazi’s investment thesis for startups [18:10] Startup success trends in Africa  [21:30] Lack of capital is biggest challenge to Africa’s startup scene  [29:45] Raising awareness within the continent [32:20] Biggest obstacle that African artists face  [36:52] Uncleared sample on a Bad Bunny song [40:45] Impact of Western companies investing into Africa [47:35] Mr Eazi is in album mode Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Mr Eazi, @mreazi This episode's sponsor is Symphony. Put your fanbase growth on autopilot with the first AI-powered platform that brings all your artist marketing workflows in one place. Learn more at symphony.to/trapital Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Mr. Eazi: part of me deciding to be an artist was reading the book, the Jay-Z book, Empire State of Mind. And that was when I saw it clearly and I was like, oh, wait a minute like this music is a business and the music gives you access, it gives you access to capital, access to the network it puts you, gives you a seat at the table [00:00:20] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital Dan Runcie, this podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more. Who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:48] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have the one and only Mr. Eazi, the artist, entrepreneur. How you doing man? Welcome to the pod. [00:00:56] Mr. Eazi: I'm good. I'm good. I'm chilling. What's, going on [00:00:59] Dan Runcie: Me. I'm good, man. Trying to keep up with you. Trying to keep up with you, man. [00:01:03] Mr. Eazi: I'm trying to keep up with me, bro. [00:01:06] Dan Runcie: Well, let's talk about that because you are someone who sits at this intersection of artist, investor, entrepreneur, and you are doing all of those three jobs and more. And it's also happening at this moment where the entire continent of Africa is booming from an entrepreneurship perspective, booming from a music perspective. [00:01:29] How does it feel right now? How are you operating being at the center of that? [00:01:34] Mr. Eazi: To be honest, I just feel like it's a blessing to be born or to be existing in this time. where like you said, everything is just like taking shape and, you know, yeah, it's exciting and it is for me. It's like every day I'm seeing opportunity left and right and just figuring out what is fun and what is doable and just, you know, going from thinking, oh, I'm an entrepreneur, to oh, I make music. And, it's similar cause it's products at the end of the day, on the bottom line, it's like you're selling music or you're selling some other product. And I thought they were two different things, but you know, I'm seeing how it's one and the same. [00:02:17] It's just exciting to realize that I don't need to be two different people like I still be the same me and operating both walls. [00:02:27] Dan Runcie: So how are they similar for you approaching both music and startups? [00:02:32] Mr. Eazi: So I feel like every artist is like a. because the artist has a brand, has a feel, it's like a service product, it's an emotional product, right? And every artist, you know, that IP, there's an IP with every artist, and the artist usually needs investment to scale. And like coming from, like when I went outta school straight into an incubator program called 440NG and I kind of, there I learned how, you know your idea and your business, you know, you have the idea, you put it together, you iterate as the business keeps on going. So what you thought was the business at the beginning, you know, your customers could give you feedback and then you realize it evolves, it accelerate and you are trying to be as lean as possible and grow to the point where you have that critical volume to sort of like ask, what's the word as, proof that this is a valid idea either via customers or via revenue. And then you try and get to, you know, you try and scale, and you figure out what's your, unique value proposition is, and that's like where the startup, what's your unique value proposition? [00:03:46] Who are your customers? What's the idea? You take it to market, you test it, you go get investment. And it's the same thing with every artist so at the time where I decided to do music full-time, I was in an incubator program, and so I just started to see the similarities with the music. I'm like, okay, let me test it, put it out, people listen to it, you know, gimme the feedback, you know, and the point where I decided I was gonna take the music as a business was when like I got the first person reach out to me and say, Hey, I want to pay you for a verse. So that was the first signifier to let me know that, okay, maybe I'm onto something. [00:04:22] Then I started to have my early fans then Lauryn Hill reached out and said she wanted me to come play at her show. And I thought it was a fluke until I found myself in America performing in Lauryn Hill, coming out to say, I love you, thank you so much for coming. And like all of that is like with a business, with a traditional startup, it could be different things, but for me, the revenue, the number of users, aka the fans, all of that were signifiers. [00:04:51] And then I just needed, you know, the capital to take it to the next level, right? So I think those are the similarities, and I've tried it when I started emPawa it was at the beginning, it was to test if they were one and the same. So I was like, okay, Y Combinator send, you know, picks a few, start a couple of startups, you know, does incubator program put funding and whatnot to them? [00:05:18] And then maybe 20% of them you know, end up working on, and I did that with 100 artists across 11 African countries, over 30,000 entries then picked 100, then gave them the same amount of money, created the emPawa YouTube channel to host their videos, service it the same way, and in the end, start to see the ones that organically started picking up. [00:05:41] And we had success with that. So for me it was like, oh, wait a minute it's one and the same. I've proved this. And that's when emPawa then turn from, you know, the, program I was doing to actually full service music company, because I had proved that it was the same and in the same way you invest in a song. [00:06:01] I remember the first Joeboy song, the visualizer cost me $500, and then the song ended up having like 30 million views in like a year. And you know, Joeboy just went boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So, I start to say, okay, there is a process here and perhaps we could do it with other artists, you know? So to answer your question, that's how I see both as, you know, one and the same in a way. [00:06:28] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I wanna talk about emPawa specifically because this is you bringing so many of those startup concepts to music like you said, you saw Y Combinator is doing. How could you apply that here? The difference though is that with Y Combinator, the promises of course, an exit, so they're hoping this companies get acquired. [00:06:47] They're hoping that they go public in music though. What does that look like for you as someone that is taking equity stakes in the artist? What does your return look like? What does your exit look like? [00:06:59] Mr. Eazi: So, I mean, first off, the return is like when you invest, you know, you invest to create the content, you put it out, put some marketing, and you start to see, you know, the streams coming, the revenue coming, the artist is now doing live shows, getting endorsement deals, you know, you could get four, 5x, 10x multiples, you know, and time. [00:07:24] so that's, one. But secondly, like on a developmental standpoint, you could develop the artist and then a big label comes and says, oh, we wanna upstream. So upstreaming is like a sale. It's like an exit, and you could still have passive rights to get passive income, on the artist. So those are like the kind of like returns and the kind of like exits. [00:07:48] Plus you could just invest in the IP, buy it up, and next thing somebody wants to sample it and then they have to write you a big check. And it could happen now, it could happen in like 10 years, in 15 years time, you know, you could have a record just lined. I'll give you an example, recently the Joeboy record that didn't make it to the Joeboy is one of my artists. [00:08:09] The song didn't make it to his album, and so we then licensed the song to a guy called Lakizon, you know, he puts out the record, you know, there's not so much thought to that. I wake up one day, Bad Bunny has put out, an album and I'm just listening to the album cause I'm a fan and I hear a record there and I'm like, basically what I was trying to say is, so you have that record that didn't make it to the album, Right? And it's just there and we license it to this guy and the next thing the record appears on a Bad Bunny album. [00:08:43] And that's like the biggest artist in the world last year by a lot of metrics. And so that's like an example, you know, an exit because you make this record and then boom, and the upsides are like, you know, so high. And right now on the market, even if you wanted, you are seeing, you know, my mentor, one of my mentors, Merck Mekadalas, you see how many multiples from 10 to 23, 24xlast year's revenue on, you know, buying rights for music. So I think there's multiple exits and even just the music and music IP as an asset class has been proven to be a valid asset class by Merck and the likes. For instance, I was, I was part of the deal, the KKR deal that bought, I don't know if you saw that some time ago, that bought a law of the rights, including the Weeknd et cetera. [00:09:36] I was part of that deal, via one of the companies, and you could see how you could see what an exit looks like. So there's multiple exits for music, whether it's an upstreaming deal from the label or it's a straight up acquisition of the catalog, or it's just multiples of revenue, the artist is now beginning to earn or if your label, you could get your entire label could become upstreams or you could go into a JV type situation. [00:10:06] Dan Runcie: So that speaks more to the flexibility that's offered with being able to invest in music. It isn't just this one time event that you're hoping for as a startup investor. [00:10:17] Mr. Eazi: Yeah. 100 percent. [00:10:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah And with that too, you mentioned that you have a hundred artists that at least came through the first cohort, over 30,000 had applied and when you are measuring your success for them, I'm sure that each of the things you mentioned are the things that you hope for, but along the way, what are some of those key performance indicators or what are some of those things that you're looking for to hope that traction can be gained to hopefully get to the point where you do have, positive financial event that comes. [00:10:51] Mr. Eazi: I mean, it starts with like hyper local recognition. So, you know, I give example, there was this like I think she was 18 or 17 at the time, Nik, her name is Nikita and she's from Kenya. She had joined the program, she didn't make it to the top 10, but we put out the video and you know, that song started to gain local traction in Kenya even though she didn't make it to the Final 10. [00:11:17] And by local traction, I mean like number of downloads, it made it to radio, you know, it made it to press picking it up. And even though she wasn't part of the software and I didn't give her full on funding, she got signed to Universal. So for me that's a testament of like the success and those are like KPIs like, okay, does it get to radio in your local country? [00:11:40] Does it get, you know, that local, you know, appreciation from the fans in your country? And then when does it start to transcend, and there's nothing wrong with you having a popular song in Kenya or in Tanzania, but by the time it starts to go from Tanzania, you know, to rest of East Africa and then comes to the west, you know, those are the things you look out for and, you know, next level is by the time you start getting booked for shows based on the 1, 2, 3 singles you put out, [00:12:11] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. That makes sense. Let's shift gears a bit to startups, because I know that's the other space that you're actively in. What is your thesis for investing in startups? [00:12:22] Mr. Eazi: Right now, what I do is like, you know, I can bring some form of value to. So when I look at like the idea, or like when my team, you know, sends me some deal flow and we kind of walk through it, it's like, okay, aside the money, what else can we bring to this business? You know? And if I'm able to spot some extra form of value I can bring to help the business kill. [00:12:53] Then I want to invest, you know, it could be marketing. Can I add some marketing? Can I add some of my experience here? Can I leverage on my network in this other side? Aside the money, and most of the investments I've been making haven't been personal. They've been via my collectives, Zagadat Capital, and Zagadat Capital is basically, for now, it's 12 people like myself, young, successful African boys or girls who usually, you know, find it boring to speak to the financial guys and you know, have some form of liquidity. And so when we get the deal flow, and I just look at who's in the collective and who can add value, then we bring it to, the collective and then we invest. [00:13:45] So it's majorly been, it's like 90% being Africa focused because I feel like there's so much opportunity, on the continent and also on the sentimental level. The amount of impact the investment does when it's, on the continent makes, is something that's bigger than just the money. [00:14:07] And the money is great like, you know, we've seen a lot of African companies hit and cross a billion dollar evaluations to become unicorns. so you know that, can happen. But at the same time, the impact, and it's always fun when I go to an office that I'm an investor in of the like employees, they're excited that Mr. Eazi is in our office and Mr. Eazi is a shareholder like, you can't buy that. And I think that's what I always wanted because like part of me deciding to be an artist was reading the book, the Jay-Z book, Empire State of Mind. And that was when I saw it clearly and I was like, oh, wait a minute like this music is a business and the music gives you access, it gives you access to capital, access to the network it puts you, gives you a seat at the table and you know your merch, merchandising could be like the three cap that chance the rapper does, or it could be Uber or it could be, you know, Power Pay, which I've invested in that, you know, is the number one mobile money focused payments aggregate on Africa doing over 1 million transactions a day, you know, and so it's, different things and I know how I can bring value beyond my, cash it and just watch it grow. And it's exciting [00:15:28] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. So that collective, that operates a lot like a syndicate. You all are sharing deal soon where you can add value. What stage do you normally invest in and how much money are you normally putting into startups? [00:15:41] Mr. Eazi: You know, it's different like we've done like some seed stage. we did a company that was looking at listing last year on the LSE. We've done growth stage as well, so it really depends, it depends on where it comes to us, and it could be as low as, you know, 25K check, which just gets maybe if it's a 25 K check, I might just take 50% of it and just say, Hey guys, do the rest, and I just put it on the platform we use and boom, boom, boom, everybody just clicks and it's, done. Once it's done, it's done like I just invested in a platform called Ruka Hair, and it is a startup that, you know, provides hair for, people of African descent based out of London. [00:16:30] And that was a small check for, and it is growth stage, you know, so it really varies. and there's no rule. Yeah. [00:16:41] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Yeah, keeping it flexible and gives you the opportunity to see everything that's coming through. What are some common trends that you're seeing? What are some things that you're seeing from the founders or from the startups that are coming through, especially the ones that are getting markups and getting closer to exits? [00:16:59] Mr. Eazi: I'm seeing like, you know, companies that solve fundamental, problems. You know, and I know there's so much bars on FinTech, it's like everybody just gets a hardon for African FinTech. But like, for instance is, if this products are solving specific, like there's a company called Eden Life, which I invested in. [00:17:26] And what this company does is like, you know, there are a lot of people like myself who, we don't in town enough, like enough for us to like have a chef and all of that. And we have very busy schedules, so we want like meal preps delivered to us and we want like our laundry picked up, you know, that's a very middle class, sort of like early into the job market, like pre family kind of types. And so that kind of product is a product that's like valid because like you're solving a particular need, you know, or PISA for instance, that are invested in. So PISA gives remittance based lending. [00:18:13] to, people in Mexico. So you know, the love Mexicans in the US sending money back to, Mexico to their family and their loved ones. And PISA uses that data of how much you get your current every month like my mom and dad, I put them on allowance. Like I pay them an allowance every month, Right? So we use like, by the way, for clarity they don't need it like they're good, but it's just something I do. And the other people in cultures like African culture, like in Africa, it's a pride for you, even if your dad is a billionaire, like being able to do something for your dad is like, it's like a pride. [00:18:53] It's like you've achieved, right? So you have people sending money back home, you know, either to Mexico or to different parts of Africa to either family that need it or to do stuff with it, like build a house back home or to help the family school fees or whatever, or just out of sentiment, like, it's like paying your tithes. [00:19:15] I don't know if you're Christian, it's like when you pay 10% of your income to the church. It's something like that. and then there's all that data, all that data because it's like salary, right? it comes every month, usually on a certain day. So PISA uses that information to provide loans to people. [00:19:34] And that's like a need, that's a specific need. So that's what we are seeing, Yeah. [00:19:40] Dan Runcie: What are some of the bigger challenges right now for startups in Africa? [00:19:45] Mr. Eazi: I think one of the biggest challenges is, you know, getting funding and you see a lot of, like African startups, YC has been doing a great job, but there are, you know, and like, future Africa, which I'm part of and I'm an advisor, you know, investing in these projects. But raising fund is like so hard. [00:20:07] There's still a hesitance when it comes to African startup raising funds, especially at seed stage. And usually this is not a lot of money. It's like from 20K checks to like even hundred is a lot of money, you know, but that 50 k to, get you into flight mode. So I think that's the biggest issue is not lack of ideas, it's, you know, getting funding, especially local funding that's not a lot of local funding sources. There's few options like the YC's and it's hard to get in generating that local funding is still a problem as a lot of the, you know, organizations and a lot of investors are still trying to understand this whole tech investment and valuation. [00:20:55] I have my uncles ask me, you said this company is, is what, $20 million? Do they have 20 million cash in their account or do they have, buildings? Where's the building? Where's the physical asset, you know, it's that culture going from brick and mortar to technology and understanding evaluation and all of that. [00:21:15] And, then you have sectors that are now like so hot that valuations are going crazy you know, And you have, like, depending on what sector you are, a lot of the countries are just catching up to technology. And in some places there are no laws written for the kind of products you are creating. [00:21:38] So if you're not in sync with the regulators, the regulators might pass a law that is detrimental to your business and all of a sudden you wake up one morning and your successful business is now killed just like the motorbike railing company. I forgotten the name in Lagos. That was really growing and then with one day regulations like no motorbike, transportation in Lagos, boom, dead. [00:22:04] So, I think it's not just in Africa-peculiar problem. It's like, for instance, with crypto and, you know, a lot of, you know, countries trying to understand what is going on. So you're having innovation outpacing regulation and you know, if there's no proper interaction you are having like regulations could just like be the end of use. [00:22:28] So I think access to capital, and in some sectors, depending on your sector, regulation as well could be a major setback. [00:22:38] Dan Runcie: The access to capital piece, I could see that, especially since the friends and family round is such a key piece, or having the angels outta there, such a key piece to help make that happen. But if the people that have the financial means are fewer and far between, you know, whether it's folks like you or others that are in your syndicate or maybe some of the other co-investors you have, that means that the deal flow that you all get is heightened even more so because there's just so fewer other places, which makes you all needing to be even more selective, I can imagine, than you maybe otherwise prefer to be. I mean, how do you feel in that perspective as someone that wants to see the space grow, but you know that you can't back everybody even though you know, I'm sure inherently you wish you would, but you still have your own rubrics. You still have your way that you evaluate things, and that likely has to be even heightened given the number of deals that you're seeing. [00:23:32] Mr. Eazi: Yeah, I mean like, well one of the things I pray, I have some days, fuck you money. Do you understand? To just like, because like 1.2 billion people in Africa on the continent. And it's like, if you think of the amount of money that comes back to Africa from the African Diaspora, it's like, I think it's like over a trillion dollars a year. [00:23:54] So there's so much opportunity. And, but like you said, what this does is it makes things a little bit harder for people, you know, entrepreneurs who need the money and the proof is in the pudding. Like I always say, like although it takes time and things are changing, don't get me wrong, things are changing. [00:24:15] They are more local, VCs, funding, but like I probably know like five people with networks over a hundred million, right? But now, for me to get to the point where, and these are people who've, amass all this wealth with brick and mortar businesses. So now you know, there's a job to do to sort of like show proof, show validity that, hey, I invested at this point, it's not for Gen Z it's not a pyramid scheme. [00:24:50] And like show people and then you get more people, coming in. And I have seen like some of my friends who are like billionaires now start to set up separate funds to say, okay, you know what? I don't really know what this tech thing is about for, but you know, put the money in future Africa or put it in some other fund and try to learn. [00:25:11] So it's more sort of like publicity and sometimes the drop, the setbacks are when there's a big startup out of the continent that then runs into all sorts of scandals and then, you know, it causes five steps backward. And that's not peculiar to Africa like, I mean, you seen what happened to ftx, right? So that happens everywhere. [00:25:35] The only differences, you know, because it's still kind of new. It causes more negative effects, you know, so I think there needs to be more education, more pr to the successes of these companies. Every success is a success and should be, you know, communicated and things would get better because there is capital on the continent. [00:26:00] There is like lose capital on, the continent looking for where to invest, you know? So I mean, things are changing like Future Africa. I always keep mentioning Future Africa, like they've been able to show that, you know, they know what they're doing. There is a method to the madness. They could deliver results in terms of like revenue, you know, they invested in Move, which is a company that provides, you know, the cars for Uber drivers and it's, you know, I think it's now a unicorn and that's like a very particular need because, you know, drivers need cars, but they don't have the capital to purchase the cars, right? And going through the banking routes, you are gonna have to bring collateral, your mom's name, your grandmother's house, plus the high interest, you know, so they've identified, and this has been a problem, it's still a problem to today that they've been able to solve. [00:26:54] So I think the more people know about this, the more education, the more things will open up. [00:27:01] Dan Runcie: The PR piece you mentioned is interesting because from my side, living in the states, I'll see the articles about a company like Carry1st, which I do think has had a fair amount of PR, I feel like one of their announcements got an got an article in the Hollywood Reporter, so I remember seeing things like that, but I feel like it does become fewer and farther between, at least from what you are seeing, from the awareness of some of these [00:27:27] Mr. Eazi: Yeah, you're correct and it's not so much I understand why like there's a lot of PR outside looking PR like you said, you know, New York Times, you know, LA blah, blah, blah, because that's where the money's coming from, right? But like, I'm talking more intra-Africa PR like for the money on the continent, you know, because that's like easily, like it's right there in your face, you know, there's enough money in Lagos for them not to be any need to raise capital from outside . You get what I'm saying? There's so much capital in Lagos, like from Lagos, you feel me? Or from Rwanda, you know, and, Rwanda is trying to position itself as startup, you know, pro-startup investing, you know, so there's money on the continent and it's like [00:28:22] that's what I mean by PR and publicity and awareness. if I wasn't friends with, like, I met in, was co-founder of, Flutterwave with and then Andela, you know, and then Move. So three unicorns, right? And, you know, we've been friends and we've been investing together. if there was not that proximity to him or to Shola the founder of Paystack that got bought by Stripe, I wouldn't know that this was going on. [00:28:50] You feel me? Maybe, you know, I wouldn't have known. So that's what I mean, you know, because like every A-list, Afro-B artist can be you know, can be invested, you know, so that's exactly what I mean. [00:29:08] Dan Runcie: It is interesting you bring up the music piece because I'd be curious to hear how you feel some of these challenges that African startups may face. How do the African artists themselves fare in that regard? Do you think that they have similar challenges with funding or with regulations in that way? [00:29:26] Mr. Eazi: There's regulation issues, like for instance, collecting, publishing revenue on the continent. It's a joke, right? [00:29:34] Dan Runcie: Why is that? [00:29:34] Mr. Eazi: Or collecting streaming revenue because like for you to be able to collect publishing revenue, you need the government to enforce the laws for the radio stations to pay you, you know, publishing royalties on the music they place for the bars to be able to pay for what they play, like for the use of your music. So you need strong in a lot of African countries, these laws are there, but there's no enforcement because I would say it's worse for creatives because people still look at the creative sector as a joke. [00:30:08] The orange economy is like, ah, that's not really business like that's just young people with dreadlocks, just singing and dancing and jumping across the world. Yes, they hear the music everywhere. Yes, now things are getting better because they're seeing teams at the Grammys, they're seeing Burna Boy, you know, and whiskey doing Madison Square Garden, but there's not a lot of education for them to really understand the business of music or creativity. [00:30:36] So even, I remember like two years ago I spoke to almost all the bank MDs, or three years ago, almost all the bank MDs in Nigeria trying to convince them on why music is a business is a valid business, but I couldn't get funding. And that's me being a successful African artist showing the revenue, showing all of that, like I once got on a panel with, you know, a financial institution that was meant that. they have a fund, they have like a 500 million dollar fund for investing in creatives. And I was on a panel with somebody there and the person said, oh, it is impossible to protect music IP, it is difficult to protect music IP, and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, What? And like, are you kidding me? Like, there's Shazam technology, there's like, every song has an ISRC code and like if you upload the song in Kenya or in in Afghanistan, like on YouTube, like it will pick it up instantly. So when you have a situation where you have an institution that has up to a billion to invest in creatives. But you are having the key stakeholders who decide who gets what telling you or speaking out confidently and saying is hard to protect the IP, you know, then that just shows you where it sucks. So there's still a lot, but I feel like that's why there needs to be more education, you know, just like for startups to music, to let people realize that this is a business, like there's revenue to be earned. Not just live revenue, like streaming revenue, publishing revenue, especially now that the world is looking to Africa. Like you're seeing early starters jumping on Afro Beats records, like, what's that song? [00:32:31] Essence, Essence was a hit song before Justin Bieber jumped on it. It was already a global smash. Peru was a, global smash before, Ed Sheeran jumped on it. So you are having like pure Afro Beats records in our local language produced locally in some hotel room in Lagos, you know, going on to be big songs globally without any major support from without necessarily, you know, I know A and R like support, like his producers locally. And you're seeing this, so you do know that this is the time, or you know, like the example I gave, you know, Bad Bunny, you know, sampling a Joeboy record and putting it on his album, putting an Afro Beats record on his album, you know, that's an ex example. [00:33:18] Dan Runcie: And by the way, that was declared properly and like I'm about to go, you know, go crazy with the lawyers to make sure I get my bread. And more importantly, the writers and the producers get, their due credit and revenue and, you know, Did Bad Bunny's team reach out before this? [00:33:39] Mr. Eazi: No, no, no, I literally just listened to Bad Bunny's album and I just heard Joe Boy's voice at the end of the record, and I was like, I've heard this record before. And then I realized is a record, I didn't make it to his album. And I'm like, wait a minute. And then my team start speaking to them since May of, last year. [00:33:55] And it's just back and forth to the point where I'm like, okay, you know what, you guys have had fun with this. Like, I'm just going brazen on this, let's get lawyers. Let's make it like a proper lawsuit. But what I'm trying to, or you have, you know, Beyonce, you know, doing the Lion King, the gift and having created from all of Africa put it so like, you know, you are having Drake, you know, with Whiskey on one dance you're having Ed Sheeran, Justin Bieber jump on multiple Afro Beats records that are Afro Beats records. You're having people more and more people sampling Afro Beats records, you know, and maybe not giving proper credit or do, or you are having, like I once produce. and was on co-produced and wrote and featured on a record involving Bad Bunny on the Joint album and Afro Beats record. [00:34:45] So you're seeing is becoming more global and global. So we need to be able to tell these stories to the funding sources back home to establish that this is indeed a business. So it's education the same way education for the startups, but even more for music because music was never, and creatives, you know, was never looked at as a valid business. [00:35:09] It was looked at as things, people who don't graduate from school or people who just wanna be jokers do. But right now people are sitting, wait a minute, wow, that artist bought car that artist's bought a house. that artist did this, did that or Grammys or this, that, that. So, but there still needs to be more information back home to the business side of the music to know that behind that sold out. [00:35:36] MSG is a check, and behind that billboard is a check, you know, and even the TikTokers, like I was speaking to someone at the bank and explaining to my bank MD friend that, you know, I showed him a lot of payments, like TikTokers in Nigeria are getting paid as much as $10,000 to put up a post on their TikTok. [00:35:59] 17 year old, 18 year old, you know, and I had to show this and he was like, what? Are you serious? And then he went back to ask his kids. And find out that, oh wow, this is a thing, you know? So it's that education, I mean, because there is the capital on the continent, it's just like, how do you get it? [00:36:17] And it is a lot of work to do to basically explain and explain and explain. And one needs to have the patience. And it's hard to do that while still running my label, doing everything I'm doing, putting out music for myself, you know, so, you know, but thankfully I'm not the only one doing it, Don Jazzy is doing it. [00:36:39] Olamide is doing it. They're more examples. So one way or the other people are saying it. [00:36:44] Dan Runcie: How do you feel about the investment in African music that has come from the West? So thinking about Universal Music group opening up record label in Africa and some of the other majors having different concentration in Nigeria or elsewhere, how has that been and what type of impact has that had, if any, on your end? [00:37:07] Mr. Eazi: I mean, I think it's good. It's a good signifier because all these labels were in Africa from the years before Fella, right? You had all these labels in Nigeria before, you know, the nationalization where, you know, the government had passed that all the companies should be nationalized and the labels got sold to local owners. [00:37:26] So you are just having, you have Majek Fashek that was on the late, late show, the late night show in 1991, bro. So when people say, oh, African music is then becoming popular. It's been popular. And it's coming back again with technology and everything. So I think it's good. I think the more, you know, major labels coming to Africa, but not just as, or let's test to see what happens. [00:37:52] But the more investment that comes, the more structure there will be for the business and the more signifiers, you know, to show people who wanna invest, you know, so yeah, I welcome it. And I think there should be more funding and there should be more, like the local companies should be autonomous, you know, I think that's been the only drawback with the majors, pardon of me, I might be wrong. Don't quote me where you are seeing the local, you know, Universal Nigeria or Sony or whatever, you know, that lookout team not having a lot of, autonomy in the checks they're writing to the artists or taking those risks they have to get approval from maybe South Africa or, you know, London or LA. [00:38:43] Meanwhile, everything is happening on the ground in Lagos, so you are having distributors. So I think a lot of the most recent successes have been by more distributors than record label in breaking artists. So more like Empire or ONErpm or the Orchid or emPawa or, you know, Believe, because these distributors are more flexible and have been able to give a lot more autonomy to the local guys who are running, these local companies to write those checks because like, what is somebody in London like with all due respect, like I always say this as a joke. There's no songwriter in the world that would've written, I don't care how many Grammys you've, gotten, you cannot write Soco, Soco, Soco, Soco, Soco, baby. [00:39:42] You. That's the Wizkid song, you can't write that song or, one of my favorite artists Wande Coal, there's a part of his song where he just spits jibberish, like he don't mean anything, like it's a vibe. So like without due respect to your A and R ears, you don't know the music like even me, I'm from Nigeria, but I always have to be updated. [00:40:09] So there needs to be more investment and more autonomy. But I love it like the more labels come in and the more distribution companies come in and there's this competition, the more money is invest invested. And when you invest money, then you start to structure it then you start to say, Hey, why are we not making as much money locally? [00:40:29] Okay, let's invest in touring, you know, in Nigeria, in on the continent. let's go lobby for enforcement of collection of royalties. So, yeah. [00:40:40] Dan Runcie: Have you seen any success stories from the major record label side in Africa yet? [00:40:48] Mr. Eazi: There's none that comes to mind in terms of breaking an artist. So you have Wizkid signed, you have Diplo signed, you have Burna Boy signed. you know, and this is like A-list, A-list, right? But if you look at all the artists that have broken Buju for instance, initially signed to Burna Boy and then Empire, broke him, you know, that's Buju, Fire Boy via Empire and Olamide's YBNteams, you know, independently broke with, her record. I think she's been upstreamed now. So in terms of sort of like carrying that conversation, you know, outside to the rest of the world, yes, I'm sure there's been a lot of success like the Wizkid record, you know, Burna Boy, entire Renaissance. [00:41:44] And you could go on and on, but in terms of actually finding an artist and breaking the artist, there's not a lot of successes. And I think that's down to autonomy because, you know, you have some executives moves from the label to the distributors and do well, you know, we just understanding you know, how to a and r and how to put our music, on the continent, and you can't just bring like somebody who's of Nigerian descent and just expect that they don't understand. Like, I am Nigerian, but every time I go back to Lagos, I'm like, whoa, the sound has changed, you know? So that underground on the ground, you know, and there's a lot of work. [00:42:31] Dan Runcie: Definitely, and yeah, I know that there's so much interest, but like you said, if they don't have the control or the ability to really make decisions on their own, I can easily see why an Empire or some of the other distributors have been able to have success there. But Mr. Eazi, man, this was great. I feel like you gave us a snapshot of where everything is right now on music and investing side. [00:42:53] But before we let you go, for you, what's big on the road for you still beginning of the year? What's big on the deck for you? What do you got coming up? [00:43:02] Mr. Eazi: I mean, I kind of like needed a break from putting out music and touring and when COVID happened I was like, oh, thank God, like because I was battling with, oh, if I should, I pause, like it was just routine doing the same thing and it was like too much for me. So I was able to have that pause, and put some of the attention towards like growing emPawa with my co-founder. [00:43:27] And then leaving it to him to sort of like, you know, and come back to iterate, iterate change the model, blah, blah, blah, build the team. And I just went off and started doing like investment and putting more time in the startups I was investing in. And now, I'm in Cape Town recording. I'm putting out two albums this year, one in September and one in, I think April or May. [00:43:55] So I'm just recording that now and I feel like, and now I want to go back on the road, but not first as my usual live band touring, but first as sort of like a curator, where I bring like, you know, the way Major Lazer tour where they have the sound system with Walshy and Diplo and Ape Drums. But instead of Diplo and Ape Drums, I select like the DJs, maybe one playing Afro Pop, one playing Ama one playing something else. [00:44:27] And I am the Walshy Fire, sort of like putting it together, hype man MC. So that's what I want to tour. The first part of the year once I put out the Chop Life album, so that's called Chop Life. To chop life means to enjoy life. So I'm making an sort of Afro dance album that I'll put out first and then I will talk as Chop Life sound system with doing these parties. [00:44:53] you know, of majorly Afro Beat parties, sound system across the world. And then I dropped the album, the second album, and I taught as, okay, this is my album tour. So that's the plan. Hopefully I'm able to complete the first album. The second album is done, it is just in mixing a mastering, that's the September one. [00:45:13] It's done just in mix. And my string phase and then this first one, I'm recording. That's what I'm recording right now. Recording downstairs. [00:45:21] Dan Runcie: Nice. Nice. Well, looking forward to all of that, man, and thank you. No, this has been a pleasure. And yeah, so people that wanna follow along and keep up with all that, where should they go to follow you? [00:45:30] Mr. Eazi: Follow me everywhere on social media @mreazi, M R E A Z I, Mr. Eazi. Yeah, everywhere, everywhere on social media. [00:45:44] And I wanna see you at one of my shows. You have to come maybe when I do the parties, where are you right now? [00:45:49] Dan Runcie: Me, I'm in San Francisco [00:45:51] Mr. Eazi: Cool. I'm, sure I'll be coming around LA, San Fran, at some point [00:45:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah, come through. [00:45:57] Mr. Eazi: I'd send you an invite, [00:45:58] Dan Runcie: Definitely, definitely. All right, man. We'll talk soon. [00:46:01] Mr. Eazi: All right. Have a good one. Thank you. [00:46:03] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. [00:46:24] Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.  The artist-entrepreneur-investor Mr Eazi has no on-off switch. Who he is in the recording studio, on stage, and on the boardroom are the same. With business and music, Mr Eazi has found parallel industries that allow him to be the same person.


He’s founded both emPawa Africa and Zagadat Capital to feed his business appetite. The former invests into African artists and helps them scale. Meanwhile, Zagadat Capital invests into tech startups, most of which are inside the continent. 


Then there’s Mr Eazi, the Afrobeats artist. He’s collaborated with the likes of Beyonce and J Balvin, and also taken center stage at Coachella. After taking time away from music amid the pandemic, Mr Eazi is back in album mode now. Holed up in Cape Town currently, Mr Eazi has plans for two new albums this year.


I caught up with Mr Eazi to cover his never-ending pursuits in music and business. Here’s everything we chatted about:


[0:22] How Mr Eazi is balancing artistry and entrepreneurship

[1:40] Similarities between music and startups

[6:19] Taking equity stakes in artists and what an “exit” looks like

[10:50] How Eazi measures success for Empawa artists 

[13:00] Eazi’s investment thesis for startups

[18:10] Startup success trends in Africa 

[21:30] Lack of capital is biggest challenge to Africa’s startup scene 

[29:45] Raising awareness within the continent

[32:20] Biggest obstacle that African artists face 

[36:52] Uncleared sample on a Bad Bunny song

[40:45] Impact of Western companies investing into Africa

[47:35] Mr Eazi is in album mode


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Mr Eazi, @mreazi


This episode's sponsor is Symphony. Put your fanbase growth on autopilot with the first AI-powered platform that brings all your artist marketing workflows in one place. Learn more at symphony.to/trapital


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Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.


TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Mr. Eazi: part of me deciding to be an artist was reading the book, the Jay-Z book, Empire State of Mind. And that was when I saw it clearly and I was like, oh, wait a minute like this music is a business and the music gives you access, it gives you access to capital, access to the network it puts you, gives you a seat at the table

[00:00:20] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital Dan Runcie, this podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more. Who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:48] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have the one and only Mr. Eazi, the artist, entrepreneur. How you doing man? Welcome to the pod.

[00:00:56] Mr. Eazi: I'm good. I'm good. I'm chilling. What's, going on

[00:00:59] Dan Runcie: Me. I'm good, man. Trying to keep up with you. Trying to keep up with you, man.

[00:01:03] Mr. Eazi: I'm trying to keep up with me, bro.

[00:01:06] Dan Runcie: Well, let's talk about that because you are someone who sits at this intersection of artist, investor, entrepreneur, and you are doing all of those three jobs and more. And it's also happening at this moment where the entire continent of Africa is booming from an entrepreneurship perspective, booming from a music perspective.

[00:01:29] How does it feel right now? How are you operating being at the center of that?

[00:01:34] Mr. Eazi: To be honest, I just feel like it's a blessing to be born or to be existing in this time. where like you said, everything is just like taking shape and, you know, yeah, it's exciting and it is for me. It's like every day I'm seeing opportunity left and right and just figuring out what is fun and what is doable and just, you know, going from thinking, oh, I'm an entrepreneur, to oh, I make music. And, it's similar cause it's products at the end of the day, on the bottom line, it's like you're selling music or you're selling some other product. And I thought they were two different things, but you know, I'm seeing how it's one and the same.

[00:02:17] It's just exciting to realize that I don't need to be two different people like I still be the same me and operating both walls.

[00:02:27] Dan Runcie: So how are they similar for you approaching both music and startups?

[00:02:32] Mr. Eazi: So I feel like every artist is like a. because the artist has a brand, has a feel, it's like a service product, it's an emotional product, right? And every artist, you know, that IP, there's an IP with every artist, and the artist usually needs investment to scale. And like coming from, like when I went outta school straight into an incubator program called 440NG and I kind of, there I learned how, you know your idea and your business, you know, you have the idea, you put it together, you iterate as the business keeps on going. So what you thought was the business at the beginning, you know, your customers could give you feedback and then you realize it evolves, it accelerate and you are trying to be as lean as possible and grow to the point where you have that critical volume to sort of like ask, what's the word as, proof that this is a valid idea either via customers or via revenue. And then you try and get to, you know, you try and scale, and you figure out what's your, unique value proposition is, and that's like where the startup, what's your unique value proposition?

[00:03:46] Who are your customers? What's the idea? You take it to market, you test it, you go get investment. And it's the same thing with every artist so at the time where I decided to do music full-time, I was in an incubator program, and so I just started to see the similarities with the music. I'm like, okay, let me test it, put it out, people listen to it, you know, gimme the feedback, you know, and the point where I decided I was gonna take the music as a business was when like I got the first person reach out to me and say, Hey, I want to pay you for a verse. So that was the first signifier to let me know that, okay, maybe I'm onto something.

[00:04:22] Then I started to have my early fans then Lauryn Hill reached out and said she wanted me to come play at her show. And I thought it was a fluke until I found myself in America performing in Lauryn Hill, coming out to say, I love you, thank you so much for coming. And like all of that is like with a business, with a traditional startup, it could be different things, but for me, the revenue, the number of users, aka the fans, all of that were signifiers.

[00:04:51] And then I just needed, you know, the capital to take it to the next level, right? So I think those are the similarities, and I've tried it when I started emPawa it was at the beginning, it was to test if they were one and the same. So I was like, okay, Y Combinator send, you know, picks a few, start a couple of startups, you know, does incubator program put funding and whatnot to them?

[00:05:18] And then maybe 20% of them you know, end up working on, and I did that with 100 artists across 11 African countries, over 30,000 entries then picked 100, then gave them the same amount of money, created the emPawa YouTube channel to host their videos, service it the same way, and in the end, start to see the ones that organically started picking up.

[00:05:41] And we had success with that. So for me it was like, oh, wait a minute it's one and the same. I've proved this. And that's when emPawa then turn from, you know, the, program I was doing to actually full service music company, because I had proved that it was the same and in the same way you invest in a song.

[00:06:01] I remember the first Joeboy song, the visualizer cost me $500, and then the song ended up having like 30 million views in like a year. And you know, Joeboy just went boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So, I start to say, okay, there is a process here and perhaps we could do it with other artists, you know? So to answer your question, that's how I see both as, you know, one and the same in a way.

[00:06:28] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I wanna talk about emPawa specifically because this is you bringing so many of those startup concepts to music like you said, you saw Y Combinator is doing. How could you apply that here? The difference though is that with Y Combinator, the promises of course, an exit, so they're hoping this companies get acquired.

[00:06:47] They're hoping that they go public in music though. What does that look like for you as someone that is taking equity stakes in the artist? What does your return look like? What does your exit look like?

[00:06:59] Mr. Eazi: So, I mean, first off, the return is like when you invest, you know, you invest to create the content, you put it out, put some marketing, and you start to see, you know, the streams coming, the revenue coming, the artist is now doing live shows, getting endorsement deals, you know, you could get four, 5x, 10x multiples, you know, and time.

[00:07:24] so that's, one. But secondly, like on a developmental standpoint, you could develop the artist and then a big label comes and says, oh, we wanna upstream. So upstreaming is like a sale. It's like an exit, and you could still have passive rights to get passive income, on the artist. So those are like the kind of like returns and the kind of like exits.

[00:07:48] Plus you could just invest in the IP, buy it up, and next thing somebody wants to sample it and then they have to write you a big check. And it could happen now, it could happen in like 10 years, in 15 years time, you know, you could have a record just lined. I'll give you an example, recently the Joeboy record that didn't make it to the Joeboy is one of my artists.

[00:08:09] The song didn't make it to his album, and so we then licensed the song to a guy called Lakizon, you know, he puts out the record, you know, there's not so much thought to that. I wake up one day, Bad Bunny has put out, an album and I'm just listening to the album cause I'm a fan and I hear a record there and I'm like, basically what I was trying to say is, so you have that record that didn't make it to the album, Right? And it's just there and we license it to this guy and the next thing the record appears on a Bad Bunny album.

[00:08:43] And that's like the biggest artist in the world last year by a lot of metrics. And so that's like an example, you know, an exit because you make this record and then boom, and the upsides are like, you know, so high. And right now on the market, even if you wanted, you are seeing, you know, my mentor, one of my mentors, Merck Mekadalas, you see how many multiples from 10 to 23, 24xlast year's revenue on, you know, buying rights for music. So I think there's multiple exits and even just the music and music IP as an asset class has been proven to be a valid asset class by Merck and the likes. For instance, I was, I was part of the deal, the KKR deal that bought, I don't know if you saw that some time ago, that bought a law of the rights, including the Weeknd et cetera.

[00:09:36] I was part of that deal, via one of the companies, and you could see how you could see what an exit looks like. So there's multiple exits for music, whether it's an upstreaming deal from the label or it's a straight up acquisition of the catalog, or it's just multiples of revenue, the artist is now beginning to earn or if your label, you could get your entire label could become upstreams or you could go into a JV type situation.

[00:10:06] Dan Runcie: So that speaks more to the flexibility that's offered with being able to invest in music. It isn't just this one time event that you're hoping for as a startup investor.

[00:10:17] Mr. Eazi: Yeah. 100 percent.

[00:10:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah And with that too, you mentioned that you have a hundred artists that at least came through the first cohort, over 30,000 had applied and when you are measuring your success for them, I'm sure that each of the things you mentioned are the things that you hope for, but along the way, what are some of those key performance indicators or what are some of those things that you're looking for to hope that traction can be gained to hopefully get to the point where you do have, positive financial event that comes.

[00:10:51] Mr. Eazi: I mean, it starts with like hyper local recognition. So, you know, I give example, there was this like I think she was 18 or 17 at the time, Nik, her name is Nikita and she's from Kenya. She had joined the program, she didn't make it to the top 10, but we put out the video and you know, that song started to gain local traction in Kenya even though she didn't make it to the Final 10.

[00:11:17] And by local traction, I mean like number of downloads, it made it to radio, you know, it made it to press picking it up. And even though she wasn't part of the software and I didn't give her full on funding, she got signed to Universal. So for me that's a testament of like the success and those are like KPIs like, okay, does it get to radio in your local country?

[00:11:40] Does it get, you know, that local, you know, appreciation from the fans in your country? And then when does it start to transcend, and there's nothing wrong with you having a popular song in Kenya or in Tanzania, but by the time it starts to go from Tanzania, you know, to rest of East Africa and then comes to the west, you know, those are the things you look out for and, you know, next level is by the time you start getting booked for shows based on the 1, 2, 3 singles you put out,

[00:12:11] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. That makes sense. Let's shift gears a bit to startups, because I know that's the other space that you're actively in. What is your thesis for investing in startups?

[00:12:22] Mr. Eazi: Right now, what I do is like, you know, I can bring some form of value to. So when I look at like the idea, or like when my team, you know, sends me some deal flow and we kind of walk through it, it's like, okay, aside the money, what else can we bring to this business? You know? And if I'm able to spot some extra form of value I can bring to help the business kill.

[00:12:53] Then I want to invest, you know, it could be marketing. Can I add some marketing? Can I add some of my experience here? Can I leverage on my network in this other side? Aside the money, and most of the investments I've been making haven't been personal. They've been via my collectives, Zagadat Capital, and Zagadat Capital is basically, for now, it's 12 people like myself, young, successful African boys or girls who usually, you know, find it boring to speak to the financial guys and you know, have some form of liquidity. And so when we get the deal flow, and I just look at who's in the collective and who can add value, then we bring it to, the collective and then we invest.

[00:13:45] So it's majorly been, it's like 90% being Africa focused because I feel like there's so much opportunity, on the continent and also on the sentimental level. The amount of impact the investment does when it's, on the continent makes, is something that's bigger than just the money.

[00:14:07] And the money is great like, you know, we've seen a lot of African companies hit and cross a billion dollar evaluations to become unicorns. so you know that, can happen. But at the same time, the impact, and it's always fun when I go to an office that I'm an investor in of the like employees, they're excited that Mr. Eazi is in our office and Mr. Eazi is a shareholder like, you can't buy that. And I think that's what I always wanted because like part of me deciding to be an artist was reading the book, the Jay-Z book, Empire State of Mind. And that was when I saw it clearly and I was like, oh, wait a minute like this music is a business and the music gives you access, it gives you access to capital, access to the network it puts you, gives you a seat at the table and you know your merch, merchandising could be like the three cap that chance the rapper does, or it could be Uber or it could be, you know, Power Pay, which I've invested in that, you know, is the number one mobile money focused payments aggregate on Africa doing over 1 million transactions a day, you know, and so it's, different things and I know how I can bring value beyond my, cash it and just watch it grow. And it's exciting

[00:15:28] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. So that collective, that operates a lot like a syndicate. You all are sharing deal soon where you can add value. What stage do you normally invest in and how much money are you normally putting into startups?

[00:15:41] Mr. Eazi: You know, it's different like we've done like some seed stage. we did a company that was looking at listing last year on the LSE. We've done growth stage as well, so it really depends, it depends on where it comes to us, and it could be as low as, you know, 25K check, which just gets maybe if it's a 25 K check, I might just take 50% of it and just say, Hey guys, do the rest, and I just put it on the platform we use and boom, boom, boom, everybody just clicks and it's, done. Once it's done, it's done like I just invested in a platform called Ruka Hair, and it is a startup that, you know, provides hair for, people of African descent based out of London.

[00:16:30] And that was a small check for, and it is growth stage, you know, so it really varies. and there's no rule. Yeah.

[00:16:41] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Yeah, keeping it flexible and gives you the opportunity to see everything that's coming through. What are some common trends that you're seeing? What are some things that you're seeing from the founders or from the startups that are coming through, especially the ones that are getting markups and getting closer to exits?

[00:16:59] Mr. Eazi: I'm seeing like, you know, companies that solve fundamental, problems. You know, and I know there's so much bars on FinTech, it's like everybody just gets a hardon for African FinTech. But like, for instance is, if this products are solving specific, like there's a company called Eden Life, which I invested in.

[00:17:26] And what this company does is like, you know, there are a lot of people like myself who, we don't in town enough, like enough for us to like have a chef and all of that. And we have very busy schedules, so we want like meal preps delivered to us and we want like our laundry picked up, you know, that's a very middle class, sort of like early into the job market, like pre family kind of types. And so that kind of product is a product that's like valid because like you're solving a particular need, you know, or PISA for instance, that are invested in. So PISA gives remittance based lending.

[00:18:13] to, people in Mexico. So you know, the love Mexicans in the US sending money back to, Mexico to their family and their loved ones. And PISA uses that data of how much you get your current every month like my mom and dad, I put them on allowance. Like I pay them an allowance every month, Right? So we use like, by the way, for clarity they don't need it like they're good, but it's just something I do. And the other people in cultures like African culture, like in Africa, it's a pride for you, even if your dad is a billionaire, like being able to do something for your dad is like, it's like a pride.

[00:18:53] It's like you've achieved, right? So you have people sending money back home, you know, either to Mexico or to different parts of Africa to either family that need it or to do stuff with it, like build a house back home or to help the family school fees or whatever, or just out of sentiment, like, it's like paying your tithes.

[00:19:15] I don't know if you're Christian, it's like when you pay 10% of your income to the church. It's something like that. and then there's all that data, all that data because it's like salary, right? it comes every month, usually on a certain day. So PISA uses that information to provide loans to people.

[00:19:34] And that's like a need, that's a specific need. So that's what we are seeing, Yeah.

[00:19:40] Dan Runcie: What are some of the bigger challenges right now for startups in Africa?

[00:19:45] Mr. Eazi: I think one of the biggest challenges is, you know, getting funding and you see a lot of, like African startups, YC has been doing a great job, but there are, you know, and like, future Africa, which I'm part of and I'm an advisor, you know, investing in these projects. But raising fund is like so hard.

[00:20:07] There's still a hesitance when it comes to African startup raising funds, especially at seed stage. And usually this is not a lot of money. It's like from 20K checks to like even hundred is a lot of money, you know, but that 50 k to, get you into flight mode. So I think that's the biggest issue is not lack of ideas, it's, you know, getting funding, especially local funding that's not a lot of local funding sources. There's few options like the YC's and it's hard to get in generating that local funding is still a problem as a lot of the, you know, organizations and a lot of investors are still trying to understand this whole tech investment and valuation.

[00:20:55] I have my uncles ask me, you said this company is, is what, $20 million? Do they have 20 million cash in their account or do they have, buildings? Where's the building? Where's the physical asset, you know, it's that culture going from brick and mortar to technology and understanding evaluation and all of that.

[00:21:15] And, then you have sectors that are now like so hot that valuations are going crazy you know, And you have, like, depending on what sector you are, a lot of the countries are just catching up to technology. And in some places there are no laws written for the kind of products you are creating.

[00:21:38] So if you're not in sync with the regulators, the regulators might pass a law that is detrimental to your business and all of a sudden you wake up one morning and your successful business is now killed just like the motorbike railing company. I forgotten the name in Lagos. That was really growing and then with one day regulations like no motorbike, transportation in Lagos, boom, dead.

[00:22:04] So, I think it's not just in Africa-peculiar problem. It's like, for instance, with crypto and, you know, a lot of, you know, countries trying to understand what is going on. So you're having innovation outpacing regulation and you know, if there's no proper interaction you are having like regulations could just like be the end of use.

[00:22:28] So I think access to capital, and in some sectors, depending on your sector, regulation as well could be a major setback.

[00:22:38] Dan Runcie: The access to capital piece, I could see that, especially since the friends and family round is such a key piece, or having the angels outta there, such a key piece to help make that happen. But if the people that have the financial means are fewer and far between, you know, whether it's folks like you or others that are in your syndicate or maybe some of the other co-investors you have, that means that the deal flow that you all get is heightened even more so because there's just so fewer other places, which makes you all needing to be even more selective, I can imagine, than you maybe otherwise prefer to be. I mean, how do you feel in that perspective as someone that wants to see the space grow, but you know that you can't back everybody even though you know, I'm sure inherently you wish you would, but you still have your own rubrics. You still have your way that you evaluate things, and that likely has to be even heightened given the number of deals that you're seeing.

[00:23:32] Mr. Eazi: Yeah, I mean like, well one of the things I pray, I have some days, fuck you money. Do you understand? To just like, because like 1.2 billion people in Africa on the continent. And it's like, if you think of the amount of money that comes back to Africa from the African Diaspora, it's like, I think it's like over a trillion dollars a year.

[00:23:54] So there's so much opportunity. And, but like you said, what this does is it makes things a little bit harder for people, you know, entrepreneurs who need the money and the proof is in the pudding. Like I always say, like although it takes time and things are changing, don't get me wrong, things are changing.

[00:24:15] They are more local, VCs, funding, but like I probably know like five people with networks over a hundred million, right? But now, for me to get to the point where, and these are people who've, amass all this wealth with brick and mortar businesses. So now you know, there's a job to do to sort of like show proof, show validity that, hey, I invested at this point, it's not for Gen Z it's not a pyramid scheme.

[00:24:50] And like show people and then you get more people, coming in. And I have seen like some of my friends who are like billionaires now start to set up separate funds to say, okay, you know what? I don't really know what this tech thing is about for, but you know, put the money in future Africa or put it in some other fund and try to learn.

[00:25:11] So it's more sort of like publicity and sometimes the drop, the setbacks are when there's a big startup out of the continent that then runs into all sorts of scandals and then, you know, it causes five steps backward. And that's not peculiar to Africa like, I mean, you seen what happened to ftx, right? So that happens everywhere.

[00:25:35] The only differences, you know, because it's still kind of new. It causes more negative effects, you know, so I think there needs to be more education, more pr to the successes of these companies. Every success is a success and should be, you know, communicated and things would get better because there is capital on the continent.

[00:26:00] There is like lose capital on, the continent looking for where to invest, you know? So I mean, things are changing like Future Africa. I always keep mentioning Future Africa, like they've been able to show that, you know, they know what they're doing. There is a method to the madness. They could deliver results in terms of like revenue, you know, they invested in Move, which is a company that provides, you know, the cars for Uber drivers and it's, you know, I think it's now a unicorn and that's like a very particular need because, you know, drivers need cars, but they don't have the capital to purchase the cars, right? And going through the banking routes, you are gonna have to bring collateral, your mom's name, your grandmother's house, plus the high interest, you know, so they've identified, and this has been a problem, it's still a problem to today that they've been able to solve.

[00:26:54] So I think the more people know about this, the more education, the more things will open up.

[00:27:01] Dan Runcie: The PR piece you mentioned is interesting because from my side, living in the states, I'll see the articles about a company like Carry1st, which I do think has had a fair amount of PR, I feel like one of their announcements got an got an article in the Hollywood Reporter, so I remember seeing things like that, but I feel like it does become fewer and farther between, at least from what you are seeing, from the awareness of some of these

[00:27:27] Mr. Eazi: Yeah, you're correct and it's not so much I understand why like there's a lot of PR outside looking PR like you said, you know, New York Times, you know, LA blah, blah, blah, because that's where the money's coming from, right? But like, I'm talking more intra-Africa PR like for the money on the continent, you know, because that's like easily, like it's right there in your face, you know, there's enough money in Lagos for them not to be any need to raise capital from outside . You get what I'm saying? There's so much capital in Lagos, like from Lagos, you feel me? Or from Rwanda, you know, and, Rwanda is trying to position itself as startup, you know, pro-startup investing, you know, so there's money on the continent and it's like

[00:28:22] that's what I mean by PR and publicity and awareness. if I wasn't friends with, like, I met in, was co-founder of, Flutterwave with and then Andela, you know, and then Move. So three unicorns, right? And, you know, we've been friends and we've been investing together. if there was not that proximity to him or to Shola the founder of Paystack that got bought by Stripe, I wouldn't know that this was going on.

[00:28:50] You feel me? Maybe, you know, I wouldn't have known. So that's what I mean, you know, because like every A-list, Afro-B artist can be you know, can be invested, you know, so that's exactly what I mean.

[00:29:08] Dan Runcie: It is interesting you bring up the music piece because I'd be curious to hear how you feel some of these challenges that African startups may face. How do the African artists themselves fare in that regard? Do you think that they have similar challenges with funding or with regulations in that way?

[00:29:26] Mr. Eazi: There's regulation issues, like for instance, collecting, publishing revenue on the continent. It's a joke, right?

[00:29:34] Dan Runcie: Why is that?

[00:29:34] Mr. Eazi: Or collecting streaming revenue because like for you to be able to collect publishing revenue, you need the government to enforce the laws for the radio stations to pay you, you know, publishing royalties on the music they place for the bars to be able to pay for what they play, like for the use of your music. So you need strong in a lot of African countries, these laws are there, but there's no enforcement because I would say it's worse for creatives because people still look at the creative sector as a joke.

[00:30:08] The orange economy is like, ah, that's not really business like that's just young people with dreadlocks, just singing and dancing and jumping across the world. Yes, they hear the music everywhere. Yes, now things are getting better because they're seeing teams at the Grammys, they're seeing Burna Boy, you know, and whiskey doing Madison Square Garden, but there's not a lot of education for them to really understand the business of music or creativity.

[00:30:36] So even, I remember like two years ago I spoke to almost all the bank MDs, or three years ago, almost all the bank MDs in Nigeria trying to convince them on why music is a business is a valid business, but I couldn't get funding. And that's me being a successful African artist showing the revenue, showing all of that, like I once got on a panel with, you know, a financial institution that was meant that. they have a fund, they have like a 500 million dollar fund for investing in creatives. And I was on a panel with somebody there and the person said, oh, it is impossible to protect music IP, it is difficult to protect music IP, and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, What? And like, are you kidding me? Like, there's Shazam technology, there's like, every song has an ISRC code and like if you upload the song in Kenya or in in Afghanistan, like on YouTube, like it will pick it up instantly. So when you have a situation where you have an institution that has up to a billion to invest in creatives. But you are having the key stakeholders who decide who gets what telling you or speaking out confidently and saying is hard to protect the IP, you know, then that just shows you where it sucks. So there's still a lot, but I feel like that's why there needs to be more education, you know, just like for startups to music, to let people realize that this is a business, like there's revenue to be earned. Not just live revenue, like streaming revenue, publishing revenue, especially now that the world is looking to Africa. Like you're seeing early starters jumping on Afro Beats records, like, what's that song?

[00:32:31] Essence, Essence was a hit song before Justin Bieber jumped on it. It was already a global smash. Peru was a, global smash before, Ed Sheeran jumped on it. So you are having like pure Afro Beats records in our local language produced locally in some hotel room in Lagos, you know, going on to be big songs globally without any major support from without necessarily, you know, I know A and R like support, like his producers locally. And you're seeing this, so you do know that this is the time, or you know, like the example I gave, you know, Bad Bunny, you know, sampling a Joeboy record and putting it on his album, putting an Afro Beats record on his album, you know, that's an ex example.

[00:33:18] Dan Runcie: And by the way, that was declared properly and like I'm about to go, you know, go crazy with the lawyers to make sure I get my bread. And more importantly, the writers and the producers get, their due credit and revenue and, you know, Did Bad Bunny's team reach out before this?

[00:33:39] Mr. Eazi: No, no, no, I literally just listened to Bad Bunny's album and I just heard Joe Boy's voice at the end of the record, and I was like, I've heard this record before. And then I realized is a record, I didn't make it to his album. And I'm like, wait a minute. And then my team start speaking to them since May of, last year.

[00:33:55] And it's just back and forth to the point where I'm like, okay, you know what, you guys have had fun with this. Like, I'm just going brazen on this, let's get lawyers. Let's make it like a proper lawsuit. But what I'm trying to, or you have, you know, Beyonce, you know, doing the Lion King, the gift and having created from all of Africa put it so like, you know, you are having Drake, you know, with Whiskey on one dance you're having Ed Sheeran, Justin Bieber jump on multiple Afro Beats records that are Afro Beats records. You're having people more and more people sampling Afro Beats records, you know, and maybe not giving proper credit or do, or you are having, like I once produce. and was on co-produced and wrote and featured on a record involving Bad Bunny on the Joint album and Afro Beats record.

[00:34:45] So you're seeing is becoming more global and global. So we need to be able to tell these stories to the funding sources back home to establish that this is indeed a business. So it's education the same way education for the startups, but even more for music because music was never, and creatives, you know, was never looked at as a valid business.

[00:35:09] It was looked at as things, people who don't graduate from school or people who just wanna be jokers do. But right now people are sitting, wait a minute, wow, that artist bought car that artist's bought a house. that artist did this, did that or Grammys or this, that, that. So, but there still needs to be more information back home to the business side of the music to know that behind that sold out.

[00:35:36] MSG is a check, and behind that billboard is a check, you know, and even the TikTokers, like I was speaking to someone at the bank and explaining to my bank MD friend that, you know, I showed him a lot of payments, like TikTokers in Nigeria are getting paid as much as $10,000 to put up a post on their TikTok.

[00:35:59] 17 year old, 18 year old, you know, and I had to show this and he was like, what? Are you serious? And then he went back to ask his kids. And find out that, oh wow, this is a thing, you know? So it's that education, I mean, because there is the capital on the continent, it's just like, how do you get it?

[00:36:17] And it is a lot of work to do to basically explain and explain and explain. And one needs to have the patience. And it's hard to do that while still running my label, doing everything I'm doing, putting out music for myself, you know, so, you know, but thankfully I'm not the only one doing it, Don Jazzy is doing it.

[00:36:39] Olamide is doing it. They're more examples. So one way or the other people are saying it.

[00:36:44] Dan Runcie: How do you feel about the investment in African music that has come from the West? So thinking about Universal Music group opening up record label in Africa and some of the other majors having different concentration in Nigeria or elsewhere, how has that been and what type of impact has that had, if any, on your end?

[00:37:07] Mr. Eazi: I mean, I think it's good. It's a good signifier because all these labels were in Africa from the years before Fella, right? You had all these labels in Nigeria before, you know, the nationalization where, you know, the government had passed that all the companies should be nationalized and the labels got sold to local owners.

[00:37:26] So you are just having, you have Majek Fashek that was on the late, late show, the late night show in 1991, bro. So when people say, oh, African music is then becoming popular. It's been popular. And it's coming back again with technology and everything. So I think it's good. I think the more, you know, major labels coming to Africa, but not just as, or let's test to see what happens.

[00:37:52] But the more investment that comes, the more structure there will be for the business and the more signifiers, you know, to show people who wanna invest, you know, so yeah, I welcome it. And I think there should be more funding and there should be more, like the local companies should be autonomous, you know, I think that's been the only drawback with the majors, pardon of me, I might be wrong. Don't quote me where you are seeing the local, you know, Universal Nigeria or Sony or whatever, you know, that lookout team not having a lot of, autonomy in the checks they're writing to the artists or taking those risks they have to get approval from maybe South Africa or, you know, London or LA.

[00:38:43] Meanwhile, everything is happening on the ground in Lagos, so you are having distributors. So I think a lot of the most recent successes have been by more distributors than record label in breaking artists. So more like Empire or ONErpm or the Orchid or emPawa or, you know, Believe, because these distributors are more flexible and have been able to give a lot more autonomy to the local guys who are running, these local companies to write those checks because like, what is somebody in London like with all due respect, like I always say this as a joke. There's no songwriter in the world that would've written, I don't care how many Grammys you've, gotten, you cannot write Soco, Soco, Soco, Soco, Soco, baby.

[00:39:42] You. That's the Wizkid song, you can't write that song or, one of my favorite artists Wande Coal, there's a part of his song where he just spits jibberish, like he don't mean anything, like it's a vibe. So like without due respect to your A and R ears, you don't know the music like even me, I'm from Nigeria, but I always have to be updated.

[00:40:09] So there needs to be more investment and more autonomy. But I love it like the more labels come in and the more distribution companies come in and there's this competition, the more money is invest invested. And when you invest money, then you start to structure it then you start to say, Hey, why are we not making as much money locally?

[00:40:29] Okay, let's invest in touring, you know, in Nigeria, in on the continent. let's go lobby for enforcement of collection of royalties. So, yeah.

[00:40:40] Dan Runcie: Have you seen any success stories from the major record label side in Africa yet?

[00:40:48] Mr. Eazi: There's none that comes to mind in terms of breaking an artist. So you have Wizkid signed, you have Diplo signed, you have Burna Boy signed. you know, and this is like A-list, A-list, right? But if you look at all the artists that have broken Buju for instance, initially signed to Burna Boy and then Empire, broke him, you know, that's Buju, Fire Boy via Empire and Olamide's YBNteams, you know, independently broke with, her record. I think she's been upstreamed now. So in terms of sort of like carrying that conversation, you know, outside to the rest of the world, yes, I'm sure there's been a lot of success like the Wizkid record, you know, Burna Boy, entire Renaissance.

[00:41:44] And you could go on and on, but in terms of actually finding an artist and breaking the artist, there's not a lot of successes. And I think that's down to autonomy because, you know, you have some executives moves from the label to the distributors and do well, you know, we just understanding you know, how to a and r and how to put our music, on the continent, and you can't just bring like somebody who's of Nigerian descent and just expect that they don't understand. Like, I am Nigerian, but every time I go back to Lagos, I'm like, whoa, the sound has changed, you know? So that underground on the ground, you know, and there's a lot of work.

[00:42:31] Dan Runcie: Definitely, and yeah, I know that there's so much interest, but like you said, if they don't have the control or the ability to really make decisions on their own, I can easily see why an Empire or some of the other distributors have been able to have success there. But Mr. Eazi, man, this was great. I feel like you gave us a snapshot of where everything is right now on music and investing side.

[00:42:53] But before we let you go, for you, what's big on the road for you still beginning of the year? What's big on the deck for you? What do you got coming up?

[00:43:02] Mr. Eazi: I mean, I kind of like needed a break from putting out music and touring and when COVID happened I was like, oh, thank God, like because I was battling with, oh, if I should, I pause, like it was just routine doing the same thing and it was like too much for me. So I was able to have that pause, and put some of the attention towards like growing emPawa with my co-founder.

[00:43:27] And then leaving it to him to sort of like, you know, and come back to iterate, iterate change the model, blah, blah, blah, build the team. And I just went off and started doing like investment and putting more time in the startups I was investing in. And now, I'm in Cape Town recording. I'm putting out two albums this year, one in September and one in, I think April or May.

[00:43:55] So I'm just recording that now and I feel like, and now I want to go back on the road, but not first as my usual live band touring, but first as sort of like a curator, where I bring like, you know, the way Major Lazer tour where they have the sound system with Walshy and Diplo and Ape Drums. But instead of Diplo and Ape Drums, I select like the DJs, maybe one playing Afro Pop, one playing Ama one playing something else.

[00:44:27] And I am the Walshy Fire, sort of like putting it together, hype man MC. So that's what I want to tour. The first part of the year once I put out the Chop Life album, so that's called Chop Life. To chop life means to enjoy life. So I'm making an sort of Afro dance album that I'll put out first and then I will talk as Chop Life sound system with doing these parties.

[00:44:53] you know, of majorly Afro Beat parties, sound system across the world. And then I dropped the album, the second album, and I taught as, okay, this is my album tour. So that's the plan. Hopefully I'm able to complete the first album. The second album is done, it is just in mixing a mastering, that's the September one.

[00:45:13] It's done just in mix. And my string phase and then this first one, I'm recording. That's what I'm recording right now. Recording downstairs.

[00:45:21] Dan Runcie: Nice. Nice. Well, looking forward to all of that, man, and thank you. No, this has been a pleasure. And yeah, so people that wanna follow along and keep up with all that, where should they go to follow you?

[00:45:30] Mr. Eazi: Follow me everywhere on social media @mreazi, M R E A Z I, Mr. Eazi. Yeah, everywhere, everywhere on social media.

[00:45:44] And I wanna see you at one of my shows. You have to come maybe when I do the parties, where are you right now?

[00:45:49] Dan Runcie: Me, I'm in San Francisco

[00:45:51] Mr. Eazi: Cool. I'm, sure I'll be coming around LA, San Fran, at some point

[00:45:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah, come through.

[00:45:57] Mr. Eazi: I'd send you an invite,

[00:45:58] Dan Runcie: Definitely, definitely. All right, man. We'll talk soon.

[00:46:01] Mr. Eazi: All right. Have a good one. Thank you.

[00:46:03] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead.

[00:46:24] Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. 

]]> 2835 no The Future of Music and Gaming (with Vickie Nauman) https://www.trapital.com/podcast The gaming industry is larger than music and film combined. We’ve seen big music collabs in Fortnite, Roblox, and more, but there’s room to leverage music even more.   That’s been a big focus for Vickie Nauman, who works at the intersection of music and gaming. She consults for major record labels, game developers, and more through her company, CrossBorderWorks. She’s also worked on big virtual concerts, like David Guerra and Saweetie in Roblox, and VR games like Beat Saber.    But there are plenty of friction points between music and gaming. As Vickie said, the music industry likes to get money upfront, whereas gaming is fine getting it on the back-end. Then there’s the long process of clearing music from rights holders to even use in games. It makes it tough to move quickly   It’s even more challenging because of how fast technology is changing. New virtual experiences are being created daily, which adds pressure on the music industry to sort this out.   Vickie and I covered all this and more. Here’s everything we discussed:   [1:40] What attracted Vickie to gaming [2:40] The gaming moment that finally struck a chord with the music industry [4:33] Similarities and differences between gaming and music industries [10:09] Why Travis Scott’s Fortnite concert clicked but others haven’t [9:53] Can gaming have its Kate Bush - Stranger Things moment  [15:47] Why the music industry plays catch up to technology [21:33] Clearing 143 writer’s share for David Guetta’s Roblox concert [28:45] Dot-com bubble era of web3 [30:45] Music will evolve differently in web3 experiences [36:17] What’s slowing down virtual reality adoption? [41:26] AI is coming at the music industry like a freight train   Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS   Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Vickie Nauman, @vnvnvnvn This episode was brought to you by trac. Learn more about how artists can bring web2 and web3 together for their fans at trac.co Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Vickie Nauman: There are not an enormous number of opportunities for music and games. It's gaming is similar to the music industry where there are a handful of huge, huge, huge gaming studios, and then there's an inordinate long tail of small to mid-size gaming companies and, you know, very, very similar to music. [00:00:19] So the few big studios, a lot of them are doing, you know, licensing and they get music in. But it's been much more common over the years to gaming studios just hire a composer and they just create a song that is right for the mood and the moment in the game, the gaming studio owns it and they're just done. [00:00:40] You know, they don't have to worry about licensing or business models to incorporate music into the games. But I think for the most part, the music industry always likes to get their money up front, and the gaming industry likes to get all the money on the back end [00:00:55] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more. Who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:01:22] Dan Runcie: This episode is all about the future of gaming, and today we'll be breaking it down with someone who understands this space in and out. Vickie Nauman. She is the founder and CEO of CrossBorderWorks, which is her consulting and advisory firm, which works with some of the biggest major record labels, streaming services, and more on the intersections of word music meets technology, gaming, and several other emerging tech platforms. [00:01:47] We talk about what music and gaming's challenges and opportunities are in the future, how games are monetized versus music, some of the opportunities there. We also talk about the music industry itself and why the music industry often sometimes plays catch up with regards to emerging technology, how that impacts her work. [00:02:07] And what it can look like for gaming, to have that huge sync moment that Kate Bush running up that hill moment like we saw on Stranger Things. What could that look like for music in a video game? I think we've seen several successful examples over the past couple of decades, but we'll continue to see more as gaming in the Metaverse, Web three, and AI continue to intersect and influence this space. [00:02:29] Really great episode. It was great to have her share her insights here, and I hope you enjoy it. Here's our chat. [00:02:36] All right. Today we're here to talk about gaming music and so many of the intersections it has, and wanted to talk with someone who understands this space better than almost anyone that I could reach out to Vickie Nauman, who has consulted and worked with many of these companies in music and gaming. [00:02:53] Vickie, welcome to the pod. [00:02:54] Vickie Nauman: I am so happy to be here. I'm a huge admirer of your writing and your work and it's an honor. [00:02:59] Dan Runcie: Thank you. Appreciate that. So what is it for you that attracted you to this space? It's been an emerging space for some time, and it feels like the music industry is now starting to put more emphasis in, but you had been focusing even before the current wave has been there. What attracted you to it? [00:03:16] Vickie Nauman: Well, I've always looked at gaming and I'm one of these people who for years was telling the industry. Gaming is bigger than music and film combined, you know, it is a massive, massive industry and they're, you know, and almost all the monetization is built on low friction, high engagement in-app purchasing. [00:03:37] And so companies are releasing games that are free and they're making billions of dollars. There's, you know, there's lessons for the music industry. I feel like it all fell on deaf ears. People are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, companies come to us and. We wanna license them our whole catalog, and they don't want it. [00:03:53] And so there's nothing for us to do. And then, Marshmello did a set in Fortnite and got 10 million people to listen to his music, and that struck a chord in the, you know, in the industry. you know, and importantly, it didn't necessarily resonate with the digital business people who were always, you know, under an onslaught of new companies coming to try to get rights. [00:04:19] But it was in marketing and a and. and then there was like, it was a moment where I think everyone started to realize the power of gaming and the hundreds of millions and billions of people who are playing games as a new platform in a new way for artists to reach, fans and to break artists. [00:04:37] And it was interesting too because at that time I was working with Beat Saber. and they were this was in 2019 that all of this happened. And, Beat Saber was still an independent studio out of Prague, brand new game. And we were trying to get some of first songs in to that game. [00:04:55] Vickie Nauman: We had worked with Monstercat before and we had these original soundtracks in there, but we didn't have any, huge major label acts and we were trying to license Imagine Dragons. And so I heard firsthand from labels and publishers all throughout that process of like, wow, you know, we really want to do more with gaming. [00:05:16] And I credit a lot of that to Marshmello. [00:05:20] Dan Runcie: And you talked a little bit about how gaming is just so much bigger than music, and part of it is because they're not necessarily selling the content itself. They are selling what you can do on top of it from things you can buy or other things that are less friction. The frictionless, as you mentioned. [00:05:38] Had any of that come up, especially after the marshmallow event? Did any of that come up in any discussions about like, Hey, could this be an opportunity to rethink monetization a bit more broadly? Or maybe think about the bigger picture? What have some of those discussions been like? [00:05:54] Vickie Nauman: Yeah, it's been really interesting actually because they're really in aggregate. There are not an enormous number of opportunities for music and games. It's gaming is similar to the music industry where there are a handful of huge, huge, huge gaming studios, and then there's an inordinate long tail of small to mid-size gaming companies and, you know, very, very similar to music. [00:06:18] So the few big studios, a lot of them are doing, you know, licensing and they get music in. But it's been much more common over the years to gaming studios just hire a composer and they just create a song that is right for the mood and the moment in the game, the gaming studio owns it and they're just done. [00:06:39] You know, they don't have to worry about licensing or business models to incorporate music into the games. But I think for the most part, the music industry always likes to get their money up front, and the gaming industry likes to get all the money on the back end. And so you know, there are these friction points that, you know, marrying a business model into a game is kind of an art because if you've already got an existing model and it's free, or there's, you know, in-game purchases, then how do, you know, do you try to incorporate music into that? Do you just pay the rights holders and get a deal for a certain period of time, or can you create a revenue share and some way to participate in the upside and, a lot of gaming companies are even huge companies are still new to this. And so they're kind of what I would call, like dipping their toes into the pool, you know, testing the waters and trying some small things. And then trying to figure out does this work for us? [00:07:44] Do we need to, you know, do we need to create a big stack of technology to manage the rights? Most of them do not have an appetite to do. They certainly have the skills, which is part of what's so fun working with gaming companies is they have amazing engineers and really great minds about problem solving and coming up with these ways to engage users. [00:08:06] But nobody really wants to dedicate engineers to building a rights management system. And so I think everyone is, you know, all the companies that I work with, they're trying to kind of simplify things with music, try it out, find out what their users want, what their gamers want, because that's another big thing is, you know, you have to ask, you know, gaming is such a culture and such a subculture and each game has kind of a different community in it and a different vibe, and so you really wanna make sure you're getting that. Your assumptions of what kind of music is going to work are in line with your user's expectations. [00:08:45] There was one company that I worked with that was like, had a lot of underground, you know, all, their users thought of themselves as very underground and they did a music thing that their users thought was too commercial, the gamers rebelled . So, so, the best thing is to ask the people who are gaming, ,you know, and your products. [00:09:02] Ask them what they want. [00:09:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that customer base, especially with gaming, I think is huge cuz it makes me think a lot back to that Travis Scott Fortnite integration, which was almost three years ago at this point, but it was the perfect combination of so many things. At the beginning of quarantines with the pandemic, but also there's such alignment between the type of person that's on Fortnite with the Travis Scott fan as well, which is why I think that one worked much better than some of the other A-list artist superstar artists collaborating in a digital gaming environment. [00:09:37] Vickie Nauman: Yeah, I think that's a great, I think that's a really great point, and you know, because of the dynamic of gaming and the kinds of things that we're seeing, you know, it's not like a service that has, it's just music and it's going to put out hundreds of thousands or millions and millions of songs and just saying, You know, something for everyone, you know, let the end users find the music that resonates with them with, when you're picking and choosing a couple of artists or a couple of songs, you know, you kind of have one shot. And it reminds me of, you know, I used to work in radio before I started doing all of this, and. there was so much science to the choices that we made in radio because we knew that you know, we had one signal and we had to choose artists. [00:10:24] You know, if we said our demographic is, you know, 18th to 34, urban men and women who are professional and make a hundred thousand dollars a year and above, if that's your demographic, then you have to say, what kind of music and what kind of programming and what kind of announcers and events. Gotta get it. [00:10:45] And that's very similar to the way things are when you're doing things in the metaverse or gaming where you're like, well, we're just doing, we're picking a few things and we really wanna light them up, but we need to get them right. We need to get the user experience, we need to get the right artist to fit with the right user base. [00:11:04] And then how we present it, how we monetize it has to also be something that fits within the gaming community. [00:11:14] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I feel like that lines up with something else you had said in recent interviews talking about gaming syncs and the potential there and how there may not be as much because a lot of the game developers are doing in-house music now, but it can grow in the future. And I'm thinking about, especially this past year, we saw the Stranger Things moment with Kate Bush running up that hill and I assume like it's only gonna be a matter of time until we see a gaming moment that is at that level or something like that, or maybe there already has been ones that have been at that level. [00:11:45] Vickie Nauman: No, I think it is a really good point there as well that, that I think with the Kate Bush moment or Fleetwood Mac with the skateboarder and the, you know, cranberry juice that we've had these cultural moments in social that have, Absolutely lit up music for a new generation, which I love. [00:12:05] I mean like kids bought tickets to see Fleetwood Mac in concert after listening to 20 seconds of one song. And that's so exciting and I think, it will get there with gaming. and I think when you think about the limited number of opportunities and then then the limited number of artists or songs that can be integrated into every game, I think that we are really, really at the early end of the early part of that spectrum. [00:12:34] I don't think we've even begun to really let the music industry and the gaming industry come up you know, with that Kate Bush moment or the Fleetwood Mac moment. and I think that, what I love about gaming as well as you know, other kinds of audio visual is that when you hear it, you know, you hear the music differently when you're gaming and you know, like Beat Saber, I've worked with them for many years. [00:12:58] Vickie Nauman: I also work with Niantic on, they have a new NBA game and you know, with Ubisoft and some early stage gaming companies but with Beat Saber there are certain songs. that I've always loved. Like there's a, you know, a bunch of Green Day songs that are some of my favorites that I've listened to for 20 years, but now I've, played them in Beat Saber, and now whenever I hear the songs, I hear them differently because of the experience of having this immersive gaming and this gaming experience. [00:13:30] So I think there's, I think there's just so much potential that we haven't yet been able to tap into. Some of it is also because there's been so much friction around licensing, and for the most part, I think sync licensing is the best way to do things in gaming because you want something specific and then you know, the artist and their team want to know how their music is being used and you know, you, take something to rights holders and if they're like, you know, we need more money or we don't like that rev share, or that artist has a conflict. And then you're like, okay, well, you know, we'll move on to something else. And then you know, ideally you get an artist and a label and a publisher and a writer and those teams that all say, wow, this is great. I would love to have my music in this game. [00:14:21] And that's really where I think that, you know, if we can get those, all of those things right. that's the start of it. [00:14:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and this conversation too is making me reflect on a few things. Cause I feel like music and gaming have gone through ebbs and waves like for instance, I know that there's always been music in games like Madden or like the NBA 2K series, for instance. But I think back to like Grand Theft Auto. [00:14:43] I know one of the things there, they always had music. So they had this Vice City game that came out 20 years ago and that was all eighties. So I feel like for a lot of people of a certain generation, that was like their thing to go to. And then a couple years later, Guitar Hero and Rock Band, huge. Right? [00:14:58] And then I think even those songs reintroduce, especially some of those classic rock song rock songs there. And you also had some of those Def Jam vendetta. video games as well. So now I think what's different of course is that these are more so, okay, how do we integrate them into these digital environments, the metaverse and things like that. [00:15:15] So I'm excited to see, I still think that there is huge potential to see one of those moments happen, and who knows? I mean, I feel like the Kate Bush moment was largely, I don't wanna say unplanned, cuz obviously people expected it, but no one would've anticipated that it would've taken off that way. [00:15:32] But that's how these things. [00:15:34] Vickie Nauman: Exactly. I know, I know. I love it. like a lightning in the bottle, you know, where you're just like, wow, you know, we didn't, we really couldn't quite anticipate that things would resonate like that and, and especially reaching a gen, a new generation that probably otherwise would've never heard of Kate Bush. [00:15:50] but I also think that with. you know, with music and gaming, what's, what's also so fun for me personally, is I've been doing music licensing and write based things for like 20 years now, you know? So I feel like an old lady when I say that, but I'm always the one chasing everyone, you know, I'm chasing labels and publishers and trying to put things in front of them, you know, what do you think of this? What about that? Have you thought about it? Is this approved? Is it not approved? Can we move forward? No, we can't. gotta start over. And this is the first time in my entire professional life where I. artists, publishers, labels, and songwriters coming to me now and saying, I wanna get my music in games, you know, and I wanna get my music in the metaverse. [00:16:36] Vickie Nauman: how can we get band in the Metaverse? And I love that because, you know, for me, like self selection in the industry is huge. It's really frustrating when you have to drag people kicking and screaming into the future and into experiences. So I love it when people contact me and let me know which of their artists on their roster are really interested or even better, which, artists are gamers themselves and then they are already part of the community but then they want to take it a step further with their music. [00:17:08] Dan Runcie: That's good to hear because I often feel like the music industry is playing catch up when it comes to emerging a new technology. In so many ways, dating back 20 plus years at this point. So the fact that people are coming to you now is good. Do you feel like that is true overall? Do you feel like the industry is at the moment, like right in step with where things are going? [00:17:29] Or do you still feel like there's a bit of catch up? [00:17:32] Vickie Nauman: I think there's always a bit of catch up, just simply because, you know, technology moves at such a pace. None of us can really quite keep pace with it. And then there's always these very similar dynamics where there will be some new technology that comes around, whether it's, you know, on demand streaming or live streaming or gaming or virtual reality, and now metaverse and NFTs and fractionalizing rights and all of those things in web three, and there's a very common pattern where these technologists, they look at music and they say, oh my gosh, this would be fantastic for my platform, you know, it will help me with adoption and relevance and get in, get some artists and some music in there, and fans will come and it'll all be great. And then they start talking to the industry and they learn about how music writes work, and that you usually can't just go to an artist and get what you need. They're usually signed or they have some management and they publishing is probably administered by someone and they all have their ways of doing business. And there's a moment where everybody then, you know, they have to decide, do we have an appetite to do this? Or should we just move on to something that isn't as complicated? Because music is great when you get it right, but not all companies really wanna do things right.,You know, and so, you know, we kind of go through this every time when there's new, you know, new user experiences that are emerging. [00:19:06] And I think that the music industry is always, you know, takes all these things in. and then they start thinking, number one, is this a fad or is this something that's going to last? Is it worth us spending time and cycles to really engage with the companies on this particular kind of experience? And then how can we extract value? [00:19:30] How can we make money? How are they making money? Is our deal going to outlive the the survival time of any given platform or company? There's a lot of people, I mean, it's very frustrating sometimes to do licensing, but I have empathy with all of the, with all of the rights holders, because I'm in the same boat where companies come to me and I have to just like, oh gosh, you know, it's a great idea, but you guys have never done anything before and, you know, can you build this? Can you execute you? Can you take it from a PowerPoint or a demo into a fully functioning product? And it's hard. And so I think that, you know, the labels and publishers they have assets to protect and they're, you know, and now increasingly artist management companies are also in the mix because a lot of things require artist name, image, and likeness rights. [00:20:26] And sometimes that can come from the label, but sometimes it. So they're all in a mode where they have something to protect, they want to exploit and, you know, make money, but they have a lot to lose if they do things wrong. And so there's this inherent mismatch between how quickly things move in technology and how slow and methodical the music industry is about deciding. [00:20:52] Whether they wanna move forward. And then there's the other issue, which we're faced with right now, which is all of these emerging use cases and people being kind of afraid of agreeing to the wrong terms and setting a precedent that they're later going to regret. And so, . when technologists complain about the music industry and they're like, they're so slow, they're so backwards, they don't understand our vision. [00:21:20] It's like, well, they have a lot to lose. You don't have a lot to lose cuz you're a startup and you have a big idea. But these guys have, you know, they've been, you know, 20 years of companies just like you that have come before. And so I always try to encourage, I always try to encourage people not to just, you know, get so frustrated with music that you know that they abandon it because a lot of great Id great ideas die on the vine because of these mismatches. But to be patient and to also, you know, maybe you think you need Jay-Z. But I would challenge most early stage companies, you're probably not ready for Jay-Z. [00:22:00] You know, like let's, you know, maybe find some earlier stage artists that might be more appropriate to your size and budget and a little bit more forgiving. And then you get product market fit and then start expanding and, you know, might end up with Jay-Z, but maybe you might find you don't need, you know, you don't need that to resonate with users. [00:22:24] Dan Runcie: Right. The break thing things fast mentality of startups just doesn't always line up. And that's a good point too. You get approached by so many companies, you don't know who's gonna be there. And obviously that probably requires some level of evaluating these startups to see what makes sense. That's just one side of it. [00:22:42] The other side of it is the patience to be able to see these things through. And I know you've seen this yourself with David Guetta and making sure his music can be cleared. Can you talk a little bit about that process? [00:22:54] Vickie Nauman: Yeah, it was really crazy. I mean this was a project I did with Warner Music Group and I love what they're doing cause they're really trying to create a pipeline to get their artists into metaverse and new web three based experiences. And so, this was a year ago, David Guetta was doing a DJ set as an avatar in Roblox, and he originally had chosen 26 songs and then we narrowed it down to 20 songs. [00:23:23] but you know, what I found was that those 20 songs represented 143 shares on the publishing Plus, almost all of them had shared masters. And what many people don't realize is when you're listening to music and you see, you know, here's a song featuring, you know, Shakira or somebody else, that featuring usually means that artist is probably on a different label. [00:23:50] Vickie Nauman: And so even the sound recording can end up having multiple owners. and there was a certain point in the process where I start looking at these songs and I quickly saw like, wow, there are, you know, 10 of the songs that had, you know, all these writers who are not on a PRO, so they're non society, they don't have a publishing administrator. [00:24:18] They may own one or 2%, which if you're in streaming and on-demand audio streaming, it doesn't really matter, the services can still use the music, even if you can't find the person who has one or 2% but if you're doing sync licensing, you need to have a hundred percent of the publishing at a hundred percent of the master recordings or the sound recordings cleared in advance. [00:24:42] So I chased down. All of these people, these writers and people who had small shares, you know, they weren't registered anywhere. I found them on social media and got everything, got everything in there and approved. But for me, it was kind of an exercise in how well prepared or how poorly prepared are we for the world that's coming, which is all of these metaverse, web three-immersive platforms that are building creator tools directly into the platform, assuming that artists can just be nimble. And then you look at this, it's like David chose these songs, he wanted to mix these songs. And that's so unsustainable to think of, you know, being able to harness innovation. [00:25:38] When you have 143 different rights owners that all have to be harmonized around the same deal, and then a third of them are people who are not even, you know, technically in the ecosystem of music, but they still have shares. And that's true for hip hop and electronic music. Pop music also has an enormous number of writers, but they tend to mostly be with pros and have publishing administrators. But in hip hop and electronic music, there's just a ton of people who are contributing to big songs, but they're completely outside of our ecosystem. [00:26:16] Dan Runcie: That point reminds me of the news that had came out when Beyonce released her album, The Alien Superstar song had 24 songwriters on, and people were like, oh, well how does this happen? And I think for some people it became a bit of an eye-opening. Well, this is how a lot of this music gets created, and these are the people that either had a hand or they helped sample. [00:26:35] There's so many things. And then if someone goes and samples, they only have superstar in the song that's gonna have all those same 24 writers, plus whoever helped them with that new song. [00:26:44] Vickie Nauman: Exactly. I know, and like when you watch the Grammys and they go through the , the awards for composers, you know, and there's a paragraph, all these names that have contributed to each of these songs. and I think about it a lot though, like, you know, we've kind of, if you go back in history to the olden days, you know, fifties, sixties, seventies, you know, like in the fifties and sixties, most artists, it was very common to have a songwriting group and then an artist, someone performed someone else's songs. [00:27:20] And then when the rock music came around, we had bands that it was like a big deal. Like we write our own songs. And so in that era, like if you're licensing rock music from the seventies, eighties, or nineties, it's great because there's like one or two writers on every song and it's usually the band and they've written every single thing. [00:27:43] So you, you know, you wanna license one Green Day song, you're pretty much going to have the same mix across all of their music. And then you fast forward to the way people create now, and we have this incredible fragmentation where we have on average seven writers per song, but it's outsized in electronic music and hip hop. [00:28:05] And so we have 10, 15, 20 writers on every song with these tiny shares and that just a trend of how people collaborate and how they create and samples and you know, people in the studio and people all, you know, collaborating all over the world. But I think a lot about where the industry is going. And Metaverse and NFTs and Web three and, you know, where you know, again, all of these platforms are assuming that you as an artist can come in and bring all the rights you need to be able to do something interesting with your fans and whether or not this is going to drive a different kind of creation because, it will definitely the artists who have just a one writer or a couple of writers. [00:28:55] And who really have tight control over everything are at a much bigger advantage to be able to be nimble in the, in this next iteration of music experiences than writers, than artists who have 20 writers. And some of them they don't even know. And so, you know, I'm going to watch this because like, there's a producer, Poo Bear, you know, contributed to a lot of big songs, but he's doing an NFT project and he's just made a decision. I'm gonna write, perform, do everything on these songs that I'm doing in the NFTs. Cause I don't want to, you know, have to pull in an entire army of people to get them to approve. [00:29:36] So I feel like, you know, thinking creatively about how you can take advantage of things without having all of this, administrative burden. It might drive and change some of how we see music being created. [00:29:50] Dan Runcie: That's a really interesting point because I think broadly, everyone's been trying to figure out specifically with Web three and what's ahead, how do we best make this work? How do we make this into a real business vertical that can drive real revenue. It isn't just a fad. And I know you've spoken about this in the past, how felt like we were at this .com bubble era of Web three and where things are now more proof of concept, but not actual businesses, like more features, not necessarily companies, but where do you feel like we are now and if any of the things that have been good examples, does anything stick out to you to be like, okay, like that's generally how this could be done and how we could approach Web three. [00:30:33] Vickie Nauman: Yeah, This does really remind me of the early two thousands, because. There are so many things that, like in back then, we would do things like order a pint of ice cream to be delivered by someone and no markup. And it's like, that's ridiculous. That's not a real business. But it was a proof of concept that you put your name in, put a credit card in, you order something and they promise to deliver it and it, comes to you. [00:31:02] And so, I feel like, you know, and then out of the ashes of all the companies that burn through venture capital, you know, inflamed out or had some great idea, but there was no business model to it. And somebody else then saw it and said, if we do what they did, but we do it this way, you know, we're in the midst of that process. [00:31:25] And back then out of the ashes of everything grew, companies like Amazon you know, and there were certainly lots of casualties, but I think we're kind of in that phase right now with Web three, and I'm still really bullish about it, but I think that we've, I think that we have now because of crypto and what people saw with FTX, you know, their eyes have been open a bit. [00:31:51] and a lot of the companies that have been doing things with music and NFTs and, you know, some of them have been really lucrative and successful, others haven't, but it's all part of the process. but I think that some of the things that I see I think that music is going to evolve slightly differently in all of these web three experiences than maybe, non-musical, activities. [00:32:14] Like, especially in NFTs. I think the dynamic of, you know, of buying and collecting. Visual art is going to have its own trajectory. But I think, music in token based communities, I mean, I think there will be a point where we'll probably look back and be like, damn, remember when we talked about NFTs, non fungible tokens? [00:32:35] Sounds this ridiculous name. But I think that what we will see is these artist communities that are artist centric, that are token based, and it's like fan clubs 2.0, you know, interactive fan clubs with different ways to, you know, limit membership. Maybe you can co-create with the artist. Maybe you are getting a access to ticketing or the artist in some way. [00:33:04] that there's benefits and ways to pull a small community of people around an artist together. And then We've had a lot of these artists direct to fan initiatives for many, many years that most have failed because they required the artists to do too much. The artists are artists, you know, they wanna be artists. [00:33:23] They don't want to spend all their time, you know, on 20 different platforms. But I think these are different because I think there's something inherent about, you know, artists and fans that is the most golden connection that you can possibly have in music. And we currently have artists and fans and then, all the different platforms and labels and publishers and, algorithms and transaction engines and, you know, followers and all of these things that are keeping many, many, levels separate of separation. [00:33:58] And now I think we can bring them much closer together. So I think that's one experience that I think is going to have an enormous and outsized, positive effect for music. And I think some of these will have music in them and some of them won't. And, some of them will be more about the artist's brand and their likeness and you know, their personality, their identity.And then I think another, use case in web three is, this fractionalizing rights and allowing users to invest in music. because this requires, you know, SEC, you know, this is like full investment, you know, you have to really, really get that right. I think there will be very few companies that end up in that space. [00:34:44] I think it's  [00:34:45] Vickie Nauman: just you know, the lift is too much for the average, but I think there will be a really viable marketplace. And I've talked to writers and performers who are also even signed, cuz if you're signed to a label or a publisher, you know, you're not gonna fractionize their share. [00:35:01] Dan Runcie: Right. [00:35:02] Vickie Nauman: And that's also something I always have to tell the companies that want to do this. [00:35:05] Like I'm going to now tell you some really disappointing news. but they're interested in doing some fractionalization of maybe just their writer's share or their performers share. And that's super interesting. And so, you know, how can we make that another income stream. [00:35:22] And then I think the third area that I'm really bullish about is the experiential side of, you know, we, we've seen during the pandemic, you know, and starting with starting with these things in Roblox and you know, Fortnite and you know, having these kind of pop-up experiences. Again, that's a proof of concept that if you put an artist in as an avatar and create some sort of activation, that people will come and they will buy virtual goods and they will have a great time. [00:35:56] So I think you know, that's, again, we're just barely scratching the surface of where these more experiential things will go with AR VR. Just, you know, web-based and mobile-based and, you know, avatars, you know, live streams I think fit in there as well. And I also think that the way the internet and even websites, the way that they work now, where you are, kind of view, go to a menu and you click on things and you get a flat page that tells you this is, you know, who the people are, this is what the products are, you know, like even the most basic things about how we engage online I think are going to change. And so I think there's going to be much more, you know, immersion and interactivity and real, you know, real time engagement. And to me that's just feels like that's just so perfect for. You know, small artist, activations where you don't need 20 million songs. [00:36:52] You just need a couple of artists who really want to do it. And I think that we will have just a really, really wide range of ways for people to enact more meaningfully with artists performing online. [00:37:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think the collectible piece was a key point, and I also think that artists just being able to have communities around this too. I think we probably overestimated the investing piece just because I don't think that the average fan is going to be as interested in that piece, and I think that was a big selling point. [00:37:21] It's almost in the same way that like we all may have Apple devices, but how many of us are owning stock in Apple as a result of us wanting to see the thing right. But I do think that the collectible piece is huge. Obviously you see it in people wanting to have physical media, whether it's cassettes or vinyls going up. [00:37:37] So there's an aspect there that I think will continue to be tapped into, but it'll be fascinating to see how that plays outthe other emerging technology space that I know you've done some work into is VR itself. And I know that one of the companies that you worked with extensively was acquired by Meta and although you know, from my purview, they seem to be one of the more successful companies in a landscape that I think has been a bit slower to have that mainstream adoption than a lot of people thought with VR more broadly. So where do you see with that space right now? [00:38:10] Vickie Nauman: Yeah, it, you know, VR at the beginning, you know, it had so much promise of, you know, being, you know, being transported to, other worlds and having, you know, having this 3D environment around you. But I always felt like it's going to be gaming, that would be the catalyst to this because I think there's also, you know, there's also something like how much time does anyone want to sit in a headset? [00:38:39] And you know, you generally, it's kind of like, you know, remember when 3D TVs, we're huge, and everyone's like, no, we're not gonna sit around our house with these funny glasses on for hours at a time. It's just not going to happen. But I think that gaming has really been an enormous entry point in, and, you know, Beat Saber is the VR game that was acquired by Meta and continues to do extremely well with this customized gaming rhythm But I think that, you know, part of it is we need the headsets and things to shrink and we need them to be, a little bit more, you know, a little bit more comfortable. We need to be able to spend more time in them, and we need to have more experiences than we have right now. [00:39:28] And I think that there are things, you know, there are lots of companies that are starting to build even like, you know, meetings and,you know, are we going to have meetings with people in the metaverse and in virtual reality? There are companies that are doing enterprise-based training for employees that are using VR you know, and using these technologies in ways that I think is not gimmicky, but it will actually lend, it will actually lend to human emotion and feeling close. [00:40:00] but I think with everything with web three, we're going to have a blend of, these things, you know, AR is generally considered to be more accessible than VR because you know, you don't need as much equipment. But I think as, all of these things grow and we start to get more platforms and you know, more variety of use cases that we'll probably see a blurring between AR and VR and lighter weight. [00:40:28] hardware and more cost effective hardware, and that will just help to grow. That'll help to grow the market. [00:40:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think for a while VR kind of had a bit of that sharper image vibe, I would say where, Yeah, you know, you go in the store, there's these cool forward technology things, but not necessarily something that I would wanna have in my house, right? And I think over time, to your point, the headsets get smaller, gets a bit more accessible. [00:40:54] We'll eventually get there. It's just a matter of the use case said, Yeah, to your point, I think gamers, if anyone, you think about the people that are gonna be wearing a headset while they are playing Call of Duty or whatever it is, they're probably the audience that's more likely to have another device over their head as they are interacting with game. [00:41:13] Vickie Nauman: Exactly. Exactly. And I think, you know, fitness is another area that, with VR originally was like, oh yes, you know, are there ways to simulate, you know, downhill skiing and hiking and cycling and, you know, being in this expansive different world than being in your house. but you know, you don't really wanna just be sweating, you know, sweating in your, headset either. And so I think the only, like, there probably needs to be some evolution, if that's a big enough market to support specific hardware of fitness, you know, then there probably are people who really want to do that. but you know, we're still kind of trying to figure out what this entire next iteration of the internet is going to be, and I can't imagine that VR won't be a part of it. [00:42:05] Dan Runcie: And I think the other emerging platform that'll likely or emerging medium, that might likely be a part of it somehow is AI and that's the one thing we haven't talked about deeply yet today, but where are you at right now with AI and let's fast forward five years from now, 2028. What role does AI have with music, and specifically with what the major record labels and their artists are doing? [00:42:28] Vickie Nauman: I know. I mean, it's just like, I feel like web three is, we kind of have some time because I feel like you know, companies are building infrastructure, there's lack of, you know, horizontal integration and interoperability. We have time to kind of keep experimenting and figuring it out. AI is coming at us like a freight train right now, and I think maybe five or six years ago when. [00:42:54] AI and music first came on, the first came on the horizon. A lot of people were freaked out by it. Then they listened to the music and said, that's pretty bad, you know, now, we're not worried anymore. But now music's getting way better. and I think that, I kind of look at it in a couple of different, you know, avenues because I feel like the first thing that I see is artists. And artists are always the first to embrace any kinds of creator tools. You know, they're not afraid of technology, they're not afraid of tools, you know, you think back to drum machines, you know, my God, the drum machine's gonna eliminate drummers, you know, we don't need drummers anymore. Well, we didn't, you know, we still need drummers. [00:43:41] But it did serve a purpose. Practicing and, you know, don't need to have you know, a drummer there to practice your songs. Don't need to always take a drummer on tour if you're doing some sort of small, intimate shows, but we still need great drumm. so I think that artists are probably going to be the first ones to embrace and use technologies that are like, think of plugins to DaaS and, you know, and that you've got a writer's block and you want to have something kind of help pull some things out of your head and break through that. [00:44:13] So I think like that is going to be a really, really robust market. And those are still very much human creations. They're just tools that are now a little bit more advanced. [00:44:25] you know, the opposite end of it is text to music,  [00:44:29] and that's where I think like, we have no idea how that is going to play out and who owns it either. [00:44:37] I think that electronic music is kind of the first use case because it's easiest to replicate and come up with, you know, a new electronic mix that's AI generated as opposed to something that is, you know, got, you know, 12 instruments in it. But, I still feel like there's a line there around what are the areas where it's, music is still kind of human created and you can never get it away. [00:45:03] Vickie Nauman: And live music for sure, you know, there's nothing that replaces being in a room and you're waiting for your favorite band to come on stage. And we're all human and we're all there in this shared experience. and I also think that there are things about human creativity and music that surprise you and that, you know, kind of, you know, a human can take you down an emotional path or a musical path that you never, ever would've anticipated. [00:45:32] And that's something that, that seems inherently human. But I think there's a lot of things, like a lot of background music. A lot of music that's kind of music for sleeping, music for concentration, you know, non-descript, you know, unknown artists production. I think that area is probably ripe for disruption by AI. [00:45:57] , you know, but it just still doesn't answer some of these fundamental questions about the copyrights of, if you fed an AI engine, millions of songs and it can now reproduce music based on a text command, you know, who owns that? You shouldn't t he music that was fed into the AI participate in that. [00:46:20] Dan Runcie: right. Because right now there's nothing that's necessarily pulling them, that they're pulling these from whatever, lyrics, websites that are there, but the lyrics, websites aren't, you know, pulling from those. So a lot of issues to sort through. [00:46:32] Vickie Nauman: Yeah. what do you think about? [00:46:34] Dan Runcie: I mean, I'm excited for the potential because I do think that if the industry is able to get it right in some way, if there's a way to fairly compensate people, like let's say that whether it's open AI or one of these companies has some way that they have a licensing agreement, no different than the record labels have licensing agreements with the streaming services or the dsbs. If you have something there that attributes some level of, okay, how much was pulled from here, and even if it ends up being some fractional aspect or whatever it is, obviously it would most likely all be some fraction, some way to attribute that back, especially if that becomes the next viral TikTok hit. [00:47:14] If that then spawns the journey for the next person to release the next big song, and you think about, whether it's the next Billy Eilish or whoever is creating music in their bedroom that's gonna release the biggest album of the year, like that's likely where this is gonna come from. I do think that's some of the things that we discussed in this conversation about how. [00:47:32] because the industry is more likely to not be in this break things fast mentality, to make sure that things are right. It's more likely to play catch up on some of those things, which I think, you know, could be frustrating to see it play out, but it's completely understandable just given how these things play out. [00:47:49] So maybe we'll see some more, of this happen from independent artists or those that are doing more things where they own everything themselves, kind of to your point with whether it's Poo Bear or other people like that, experimenting. Okay, what could that look like? So I think we'll probably see some type of innovation there. [00:48:06] Or maybe there's even a solution where some company has more rights to more of the royalty free or independent artist owned music where that can then be used as something derivative from where the OpenAI or chatGPT three or some of these companies can pull from. But I think we're a little ways away from that. [00:48:27] Vickie Nauman: But there's clearly no stopping it. [00:48:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, this is a train that is gonna continue to go on for sure. But Vicki, this is great. I feel like we covered a bunch of stuff, especially with gaming and so many of its intersections. And if people wanna follow along with you and the work that you're doing, where's the best place that they should follow Thank you so much. [00:48:47] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast, that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 09 Mar 2023 09:00:00 -0000 The Future of Music and Gaming (with Vickie Nauman) full Dan Runcie The gaming industry is larger than music and film combined. We’ve seen big music collabs in Fortnite, Roblox, and more, but there’s room to leverage music even more.   That’s been a big focus for Vickie Nauman, who works at the intersection of music and gaming. She consults for major record labels, game developers, and more through her company, CrossBorderWorks. She’s also worked on big virtual concerts, like David Guerra and Saweetie in Roblox, and VR games like Beat Saber.    But there are plenty of friction points between music and gaming. As Vickie said, the music industry likes to get money upfront, whereas gaming is fine getting it on the back-end. Then there’s the long process of clearing music from rights holders to even use in games. It makes it tough to move quickly   It’s even more challenging because of how fast technology is changing. New virtual experiences are being created daily, which adds pressure on the music industry to sort this out.   Vickie and I covered all this and more. Here’s everything we discussed:   [1:40] What attracted Vickie to gaming [2:40] The gaming moment that finally struck a chord with the music industry [4:33] Similarities and differences between gaming and music industries [10:09] Why Travis Scott’s Fortnite concert clicked but others haven’t [9:53] Can gaming have its Kate Bush - Stranger Things moment  [15:47] Why the music industry plays catch up to technology [21:33] Clearing 143 writer’s share for David Guetta’s Roblox concert [28:45] Dot-com bubble era of web3 [30:45] Music will evolve differently in web3 experiences [36:17] What’s slowing down virtual reality adoption? [41:26] AI is coming at the music industry like a freight train   Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS   Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Vickie Nauman, @vnvnvnvn This episode was brought to you by trac. Learn more about how artists can bring web2 and web3 together for their fans at trac.co Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Vickie Nauman: There are not an enormous number of opportunities for music and games. It's gaming is similar to the music industry where there are a handful of huge, huge, huge gaming studios, and then there's an inordinate long tail of small to mid-size gaming companies and, you know, very, very similar to music. [00:00:19] So the few big studios, a lot of them are doing, you know, licensing and they get music in. But it's been much more common over the years to gaming studios just hire a composer and they just create a song that is right for the mood and the moment in the game, the gaming studio owns it and they're just done. [00:00:40] You know, they don't have to worry about licensing or business models to incorporate music into the games. But I think for the most part, the music industry always likes to get their money up front, and the gaming industry likes to get all the money on the back end [00:00:55] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more. Who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:01:22] Dan Runcie: This episode is all about the future of gaming, and today we'll be breaking it down with someone who understands this space in and out. Vickie Nauman. She is the founder and CEO of CrossBorderWorks, which is her consulting and advisory firm, which works with some of the biggest major record labels, streaming services, and more on the intersections of word music meets technology, gaming, and several other emerging tech platforms. [00:01:47] We talk about what music and gaming's challenges and opportunities are in the future, how games are monetized versus music, some of the opportunities there. We also talk about the music industry itself and why the music industry often sometimes plays catch up with regards to emerging technology, how that impacts her work. [00:02:07] And what it can look like for gaming, to have that huge sync moment that Kate Bush running up that hill moment like we saw on Stranger Things. What could that look like for music in a video game? I think we've seen several successful examples over the past couple of decades, but we'll continue to see more as gaming in the Metaverse, Web three, and AI continue to intersect and influence this space. [00:02:29] Really great episode. It was great to have her share her insights here, and I hope you enjoy it. Here's our chat. [00:02:36] All right. Today we're here to talk about gaming music and so many of the intersections it has, and wanted to talk with someone who understands this space better than almost anyone that I could reach out to Vickie Nauman, who has consulted and worked with many of these companies in music and gaming. [00:02:53] Vickie, welcome to the pod. [00:02:54] Vickie Nauman: I am so happy to be here. I'm a huge admirer of your writing and your work and it's an honor. [00:02:59] Dan Runcie: Thank you. Appreciate that. So what is it for you that attracted you to this space? It's been an emerging space for some time, and it feels like the music industry is now starting to put more emphasis in, but you had been focusing even before the current wave has been there. What attracted you to it? [00:03:16] Vickie Nauman: Well, I've always looked at gaming and I'm one of these people who for years was telling the industry. Gaming is bigger than music and film combined, you know, it is a massive, massive industry and they're, you know, and almost all the monetization is built on low friction, high engagement in-app purchasing. [00:03:37] And so companies are releasing games that are free and they're making billions of dollars. There's, you know, there's lessons for the music industry. I feel like it all fell on deaf ears. People are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, companies come to us and. We wanna license them our whole catalog, and they don't want it. [00:03:53] And so there's nothing for us to do. And then, Marshmello did a set in Fortnite and got 10 million people to listen to his music, and that struck a chord in the, you know, in the industry. you know, and importantly, it didn't necessarily resonate with the digital business people who were always, you know, under an onslaught of new companies coming to try to get rights. [00:04:19] But it was in marketing and a and. and then there was like, it was a moment where I think everyone started to realize the power of gaming and the hundreds of millions and billions of people who are playing games as a new platform in a new way for artists to reach, fans and to break artists. [00:04:37] And it was interesting too because at that time I was working with Beat Saber. and they were this was in 2019 that all of this happened. And, Beat Saber was still an independent studio out of Prague, brand new game. And we were trying to get some of first songs in to that game. [00:04:55] Vickie Nauman: We had worked with Monstercat before and we had these original soundtracks in there, but we didn't have any, huge major label acts and we were trying to license Imagine Dragons. And so I heard firsthand from labels and publishers all throughout that process of like, wow, you know, we really want to do more with gaming. [00:05:16] And I credit a lot of that to Marshmello. [00:05:20] Dan Runcie: And you talked a little bit about how gaming is just so much bigger than music, and part of it is because they're not necessarily selling the content itself. They are selling what you can do on top of it from things you can buy or other things that are less friction. The frictionless, as you mentioned. [00:05:38] Had any of that come up, especially after the marshmallow event? Did any of that come up in any discussions about like, Hey, could this be an opportunity to rethink monetization a bit more broadly? Or maybe think about the bigger picture? What have some of those discussions been like? [00:05:54] Vickie Nauman: Yeah, it's been really interesting actually because they're really in aggregate. There are not an enormous number of opportunities for music and games. It's gaming is similar to the music industry where there are a handful of huge, huge, huge gaming studios, and then there's an inordinate long tail of small to mid-size gaming companies and, you know, very, very similar to music. [00:06:18] So the few big studios, a lot of them are doing, you know, licensing and they get music in. But it's been much more common over the years to gaming studios just hire a composer and they just create a song that is right for the mood and the moment in the game, the gaming studio owns it and they're just done. [00:06:39] You know, they don't have to worry about licensing or business models to incorporate music into the games. But I think for the most part, the music industry always likes to get their money up front, and the gaming industry likes to get all the money on the back end. And so you know, there are these friction points that, you know, marrying a business model into a game is kind of an art because if you've already got an existing model and it's free, or there's, you know, in-game purchases, then how do, you know, do you try to incorporate music into that? Do you just pay the rights holders and get a deal for a certain period of time, or can you create a revenue share and some way to participate in the upside and, a lot of gaming companies are even huge companies are still new to this. And so they're kind of what I would call, like dipping their toes into the pool, you know, testing the waters and trying some small things. And then trying to figure out does this work for us? [00:07:44] Do we need to, you know, do we need to create a big stack of technology to manage the rights? Most of them do not have an appetite to do. They certainly have the skills, which is part of what's so fun working with gaming companies is they have amazing engineers and really great minds about problem solving and coming up with these ways to engage users. [00:08:06] But nobody really wants to dedicate engineers to building a rights management system. And so I think everyone is, you know, all the companies that I work with, they're trying to kind of simplify things with music, try it out, find out what their users want, what their gamers want, because that's another big thing is, you know, you have to ask, you know, gaming is such a culture and such a subculture and each game has kind of a different community in it and a different vibe, and so you really wanna make sure you're getting that. Your assumptions of what kind of music is going to work are in line with your user's expectations. [00:08:45] There was one company that I worked with that was like, had a lot of underground, you know, all, their users thought of themselves as very underground and they did a music thing that their users thought was too commercial, the gamers rebelled . So, so, the best thing is to ask the people who are gaming, ,you know, and your products. [00:09:02] Ask them what they want. [00:09:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that customer base, especially with gaming, I think is huge cuz it makes me think a lot back to that Travis Scott Fortnite integration, which was almost three years ago at this point, but it was the perfect combination of so many things. At the beginning of quarantines with the pandemic, but also there's such alignment between the type of person that's on Fortnite with the Travis Scott fan as well, which is why I think that one worked much better than some of the other A-list artist superstar artists collaborating in a digital gaming environment. [00:09:37] Vickie Nauman: Yeah, I think that's a great, I think that's a really great point, and you know, because of the dynamic of gaming and the kinds of things that we're seeing, you know, it's not like a service that has, it's just music and it's going to put out hundreds of thousands or millions and millions of songs and just saying, You know, something for everyone, you know, let the end users find the music that resonates with them with, when you're picking and choosing a couple of artists or a couple of songs, you know, you kind of have one shot. And it reminds me of, you know, I used to work in radio before I started doing all of this, and. there was so much science to the choices that we made in radio because we knew that you know, we had one signal and we had to choose artists. [00:10:24] You know, if we said our demographic is, you know, 18th to 34, urban men and women who are professional and make a hundred thousand dollars a year and above, if that's your demographic, then you have to say, what kind of music and what kind of programming and what kind of announcers and events. Gotta get it. [00:10:45] And that's very similar to the way things are when you're doing things in the metaverse or gaming where you're like, well, we're just doing, we're picking a few things and we really wanna light them up, but we need to get them right. We need to get the user experience, we need to get the right artist to fit with the right user base. [00:11:04] And then how we present it, how we monetize it has to also be something that fits within the gaming community. [00:11:14] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I feel like that lines up with something else you had said in recent interviews talking about gaming syncs and the potential there and how there may not be as much because a lot of the game developers are doing in-house music now, but it can grow in the future. And I'm thinking about, especially this past year, we saw the Stranger Things moment with Kate Bush running up that hill and I assume like it's only gonna be a matter of time until we see a gaming moment that is at that level or something like that, or maybe there already has been ones that have been at that level. [00:11:45] Vickie Nauman: No, I think it is a really good point there as well that, that I think with the Kate Bush moment or Fleetwood Mac with the skateboarder and the, you know, cranberry juice that we've had these cultural moments in social that have, Absolutely lit up music for a new generation, which I love. [00:12:05] I mean like kids bought tickets to see Fleetwood Mac in concert after listening to 20 seconds of one song. And that's so exciting and I think, it will get there with gaming. and I think when you think about the limited number of opportunities and then then the limited number of artists or songs that can be integrated into every game, I think that we are really, really at the early end of the early part of that spectrum. [00:12:34] I don't think we've even begun to really let the music industry and the gaming industry come up you know, with that Kate Bush moment or the Fleetwood Mac moment. and I think that, what I love about gaming as well as you know, other kinds of audio visual is that when you hear it, you know, you hear the music differently when you're gaming and you know, like Beat Saber, I've worked with them for many years. [00:12:58] Vickie Nauman: I also work with Niantic on, they have a new NBA game and you know, with Ubisoft and some early stage gaming companies but with Beat Saber there are certain songs. that I've always loved. Like there's a, you know, a bunch of Green Day songs that are some of my favorites that I've listened to for 20 years, but now I've, played them in Beat Saber, and now whenever I hear the songs, I hear them differently because of the experience of having this immersive gaming and this gaming experience. [00:13:30] So I think there's, I think there's just so much potential that we haven't yet been able to tap into. Some of it is also because there's been so much friction around licensing, and for the most part, I think sync licensing is the best way to do things in gaming because you want something specific and then you know, the artist and their team want to know how their music is being used and you know, you, take something to rights holders and if they're like, you know, we need more money or we don't like that rev share, or that artist has a conflict. And then you're like, okay, well, you know, we'll move on to something else. And then you know, ideally you get an artist and a label and a publisher and a writer and those teams that all say, wow, this is great. I would love to have my music in this game. [00:14:21] And that's really where I think that, you know, if we can get those, all of those things right. that's the start of it. [00:14:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and this conversation too is making me reflect on a few things. Cause I feel like music and gaming have gone through ebbs and waves like for instance, I know that there's always been music in games like Madden or like the NBA 2K series, for instance. But I think back to like Grand Theft Auto. [00:14:43] I know one of the things there, they always had music. So they had this Vice City game that came out 20 years ago and that was all eighties. So I feel like for a lot of people of a certain generation, that was like their thing to go to. And then a couple years later, Guitar Hero and Rock Band, huge. Right? [00:14:58] And then I think even those songs reintroduce, especially some of those classic rock song rock songs there. And you also had some of those Def Jam vendetta. video games as well. So now I think what's different of course is that these are more so, okay, how do we integrate them into these digital environments, the metaverse and things like that. [00:15:15] So I'm excited to see, I still think that there is huge potential to see one of those moments happen, and who knows? I mean, I feel like the Kate Bush moment was largely, I don't wanna say unplanned, cuz obviously people expected it, but no one would've anticipated that it would've taken off that way. [00:15:32] But that's how these things. [00:15:34] Vickie Nauman: Exactly. I know, I know. I love it. like a lightning in the bottle, you know, where you're just like, wow, you know, we didn't, we really couldn't quite anticipate that things would resonate like that and, and especially reaching a gen, a new generation that probably otherwise would've never heard of Kate Bush. [00:15:50] but I also think that with. you know, with music and gaming, what's, what's also so fun for me personally, is I've been doing music licensing and write based things for like 20 years now, you know? So I feel like an old lady when I say that, but I'm always the one chasing everyone, you know, I'm chasing labels and publishers and trying to put things in front of them, you know, what do you think of this? What about that? Have you thought about it? Is this approved? Is it not approved? Can we move forward? No, we can't. gotta start over. And this is the first time in my entire professional life where I. artists, publishers, labels, and songwriters coming to me now and saying, I wanna get my music in games, you know, and I wanna get my music in the metaverse. [00:16:36] Vickie Nauman: how can we get band in the Metaverse? And I love that because, you know, for me, like self selection in the industry is huge. It's really frustrating when you have to drag people kicking and screaming into the future and into experiences. So I love it when people contact me and let me know which of their artists on their roster are really interested or even better, which, artists are gamers themselves and then they are already part of the community but then they want to take it a step further with their music. [00:17:08] Dan Runcie: That's good to hear because I often feel like the music industry is playing catch up when it comes to emerging a new technology. In so many ways, dating back 20 plus years at this point. So the fact that people are coming to you now is good. Do you feel like that is true overall? Do you feel like the industry is at the moment, like right in step with where things are going? [00:17:29] Or do you still feel like there's a bit of catch up? [00:17:32] Vickie Nauman: I think there's always a bit of catch up, just simply because, you know, technology moves at such a pace. None of us can really quite keep pace with it. And then there's always these very similar dynamics where there will be some new technology that comes around, whether it's, you know, on demand streaming or live streaming or gaming or virtual reality, and now metaverse and NFTs and fractionalizing rights and all of those things in web three, and there's a very common pattern where these technologists, they look at music and they say, oh my gosh, this would be fantastic for my platform, you know, it will help me with adoption and relevance and get in, get some artists and some music in there, and fans will come and it'll all be great. And then they start talking to the industry and they learn about how music writes work, and that you usually can't just go to an artist and get what you need. They're usually signed or they have some management and they publishing is probably administered by someone and they all have their ways of doing business. And there's a moment where everybody then, you know, they have to decide, do we have an appetite to do this? Or should we just move on to something that isn't as complicated? Because music is great when you get it right, but not all companies really wanna do things right.,You know, and so, you know, we kind of go through this every time when there's new, you know, new user experiences that are emerging. [00:19:06] And I think that the music industry is always, you know, takes all these things in. and then they start thinking, number one, is this a fad or is this something that's going to last? Is it worth us spending time and cycles to really engage with the companies on this particular kind of experience? And then how can we extract value? [00:19:30] How can we make money? How are they making money? Is our deal going to outlive the the survival time of any given platform or company? There's a lot of people, I mean, it's very frustrating sometimes to do licensing, but I have empathy with all of the, with all of the rights holders, because I'm in the same boat where companies come to me and I have to just like, oh gosh, you know, it's a great idea, but you guys have never done anything before and, you know, can you build this? Can you execute you? Can you take it from a PowerPoint or a demo into a fully functioning product? And it's hard. And so I think that, you know, the labels and publishers they have assets to protect and they're, you know, and now increasingly artist management companies are also in the mix because a lot of things require artist name, image, and likeness rights. [00:20:26] And sometimes that can come from the label, but sometimes it. So they're all in a mode where they have something to protect, they want to exploit and, you know, make money, but they have a lot to lose if they do things wrong. And so there's this inherent mismatch between how quickly things move in technology and how slow and methodical the music industry is about deciding. [00:20:52] Whether they wanna move forward. And then there's the other issue, which we're faced with right now, which is all of these emerging use cases and people being kind of afraid of agreeing to the wrong terms and setting a precedent that they're later going to regret. And so, . when technologists complain about the music industry and they're like, they're so slow, they're so backwards, they don't understand our vision. [00:21:20] It's like, well, they have a lot to lose. You don't have a lot to lose cuz you're a startup and you have a big idea. But these guys have, you know, they've been, you know, 20 years of companies just like you that have come before. And so I always try to encourage, I always try to encourage people not to just, you know, get so frustrated with music that you know that they abandon it because a lot of great Id great ideas die on the vine because of these mismatches. But to be patient and to also, you know, maybe you think you need Jay-Z. But I would challenge most early stage companies, you're probably not ready for Jay-Z. [00:22:00] You know, like let's, you know, maybe find some earlier stage artists that might be more appropriate to your size and budget and a little bit more forgiving. And then you get product market fit and then start expanding and, you know, might end up with Jay-Z, but maybe you might find you don't need, you know, you don't need that to resonate with users. [00:22:24] Dan Runcie: Right. The break thing things fast mentality of startups just doesn't always line up. And that's a good point too. You get approached by so many companies, you don't know who's gonna be there. And obviously that probably requires some level of evaluating these startups to see what makes sense. That's just one side of it. [00:22:42] The other side of it is the patience to be able to see these things through. And I know you've seen this yourself with David Guetta and making sure his music can be cleared. Can you talk a little bit about that process? [00:22:54] Vickie Nauman: Yeah, it was really crazy. I mean this was a project I did with Warner Music Group and I love what they're doing cause they're really trying to create a pipeline to get their artists into metaverse and new web three based experiences. And so, this was a year ago, David Guetta was doing a DJ set as an avatar in Roblox, and he originally had chosen 26 songs and then we narrowed it down to 20 songs. [00:23:23] but you know, what I found was that those 20 songs represented 143 shares on the publishing Plus, almost all of them had shared masters. And what many people don't realize is when you're listening to music and you see, you know, here's a song featuring, you know, Shakira or somebody else, that featuring usually means that artist is probably on a different label. [00:23:50] Vickie Nauman: And so even the sound recording can end up having multiple owners. and there was a certain point in the process where I start looking at these songs and I quickly saw like, wow, there are, you know, 10 of the songs that had, you know, all these writers who are not on a PRO, so they're non society, they don't have a publishing administrator. [00:24:18] They may own one or 2%, which if you're in streaming and on-demand audio streaming, it doesn't really matter, the services can still use the music, even if you can't find the person who has one or 2% but if you're doing sync licensing, you need to have a hundred percent of the publishing at a hundred percent of the master recordings or the sound recordings cleared in advance. [00:24:42] So I chased down. All of these people, these writers and people who had small shares, you know, they weren't registered anywhere. I found them on social media and got everything, got everything in there and approved. But for me, it was kind of an exercise in how well prepared or how poorly prepared are we for the world that's coming, which is all of these metaverse, web three-immersive platforms that are building creator tools directly into the platform, assuming that artists can just be nimble. And then you look at this, it's like David chose these songs, he wanted to mix these songs. And that's so unsustainable to think of, you know, being able to harness innovation. [00:25:38] When you have 143 different rights owners that all have to be harmonized around the same deal, and then a third of them are people who are not even, you know, technically in the ecosystem of music, but they still have shares. And that's true for hip hop and electronic music. Pop music also has an enormous number of writers, but they tend to mostly be with pros and have publishing administrators. But in hip hop and electronic music, there's just a ton of people who are contributing to big songs, but they're completely outside of our ecosystem. [00:26:16] Dan Runcie: That point reminds me of the news that had came out when Beyonce released her album, The Alien Superstar song had 24 songwriters on, and people were like, oh, well how does this happen? And I think for some people it became a bit of an eye-opening. Well, this is how a lot of this music gets created, and these are the people that either had a hand or they helped sample. [00:26:35] There's so many things. And then if someone goes and samples, they only have superstar in the song that's gonna have all those same 24 writers, plus whoever helped them with that new song. [00:26:44] Vickie Nauman: Exactly. I know, and like when you watch the Grammys and they go through the , the awards for composers, you know, and there's a paragraph, all these names that have contributed to each of these songs. and I think about it a lot though, like, you know, we've kind of, if you go back in history to the olden days, you know, fifties, sixties, seventies, you know, like in the fifties and sixties, most artists, it was very common to have a songwriting group and then an artist, someone performed someone else's songs. [00:27:20] And then when the rock music came around, we had bands that it was like a big deal. Like we write our own songs. And so in that era, like if you're licensing rock music from the seventies, eighties, or nineties, it's great because there's like one or two writers on every song and it's usually the band and they've written every single thing. [00:27:43] So you, you know, you wanna license one Green Day song, you're pretty much going to have the same mix across all of their music. And then you fast forward to the way people create now, and we have this incredible fragmentation where we have on average seven writers per song, but it's outsized in electronic music and hip hop. [00:28:05] And so we have 10, 15, 20 writers on every song with these tiny shares and that just a trend of how people collaborate and how they create and samples and you know, people in the studio and people all, you know, collaborating all over the world. But I think a lot about where the industry is going. And Metaverse and NFTs and Web three and, you know, where you know, again, all of these platforms are assuming that you as an artist can come in and bring all the rights you need to be able to do something interesting with your fans and whether or not this is going to drive a different kind of creation because, it will definitely the artists who have just a one writer or a couple of writers. [00:28:55] And who really have tight control over everything are at a much bigger advantage to be able to be nimble in the, in this next iteration of music experiences than writers, than artists who have 20 writers. And some of them they don't even know. And so, you know, I'm going to watch this because like, there's a producer, Poo Bear, you know, contributed to a lot of big songs, but he's doing an NFT project and he's just made a decision. I'm gonna write, perform, do everything on these songs that I'm doing in the NFTs. Cause I don't want to, you know, have to pull in an entire army of people to get them to approve. [00:29:36] So I feel like, you know, thinking creatively about how you can take advantage of things without having all of this, administrative burden. It might drive and change some of how we see music being created. [00:29:50] Dan Runcie: That's a really interesting point because I think broadly, everyone's been trying to figure out specifically with Web three and what's ahead, how do we best make this work? How do we make this into a real business vertical that can drive real revenue. It isn't just a fad. And I know you've spoken about this in the past, how felt like we were at this .com bubble era of Web three and where things are now more proof of concept, but not actual businesses, like more features, not necessarily companies, but where do you feel like we are now and if any of the things that have been good examples, does anything stick out to you to be like, okay, like that's generally how this could be done and how we could approach Web three. [00:30:33] Vickie Nauman: Yeah, This does really remind me of the early two thousands, because. There are so many things that, like in back then, we would do things like order a pint of ice cream to be delivered by someone and no markup. And it's like, that's ridiculous. That's not a real business. But it was a proof of concept that you put your name in, put a credit card in, you order something and they promise to deliver it and it, comes to you. [00:31:02] And so, I feel like, you know, and then out of the ashes of all the companies that burn through venture capital, you know, inflamed out or had some great idea, but there was no business model to it. And somebody else then saw it and said, if we do what they did, but we do it this way, you know, we're in the midst of that process. [00:31:25] And back then out of the ashes of everything grew, companies like Amazon you know, and there were certainly lots of casualties, but I think we're kind of in that phase right now with Web three, and I'm still really bullish about it, but I think that we've, I think that we have now because of crypto and what people saw with FTX, you know, their eyes have been open a bit. [00:31:51] and a lot of the companies that have been doing things with music and NFTs and, you know, some of them have been really lucrative and successful, others haven't, but it's all part of the process. but I think that some of the things that I see I think that music is going to evolve slightly differently in all of these web three experiences than maybe, non-musical, activities. [00:32:14] Like, especially in NFTs. I think the dynamic of, you know, of buying and collecting. Visual art is going to have its own trajectory. But I think, music in token based communities, I mean, I think there will be a point where we'll probably look back and be like, damn, remember when we talked about NFTs, non fungible tokens? [00:32:35] Sounds this ridiculous name. But I think that what we will see is these artist communities that are artist centric, that are token based, and it's like fan clubs 2.0, you know, interactive fan clubs with different ways to, you know, limit membership. Maybe you can co-create with the artist. Maybe you are getting a access to ticketing or the artist in some way. [00:33:04] that there's benefits and ways to pull a small community of people around an artist together. And then We've had a lot of these artists direct to fan initiatives for many, many years that most have failed because they required the artists to do too much. The artists are artists, you know, they wanna be artists. [00:33:23] They don't want to spend all their time, you know, on 20 different platforms. But I think these are different because I think there's something inherent about, you know, artists and fans that is the most golden connection that you can possibly have in music. And we currently have artists and fans and then, all the different platforms and labels and publishers and, algorithms and transaction engines and, you know, followers and all of these things that are keeping many, many, levels separate of separation. [00:33:58] And now I think we can bring them much closer together. So I think that's one experience that I think is going to have an enormous and outsized, positive effect for music. And I think some of these will have music in them and some of them won't. And, some of them will be more about the artist's brand and their likeness and you know, their personality, their identity.And then I think another, use case in web three is, this fractionalizing rights and allowing users to invest in music. because this requires, you know, SEC, you know, this is like full investment, you know, you have to really, really get that right. I think there will be very few companies that end up in that space. [00:34:44] I think it's  [00:34:45] Vickie Nauman: just you know, the lift is too much for the average, but I think there will be a really viable marketplace. And I've talked to writers and performers who are also even signed, cuz if you're signed to a label or a publisher, you know, you're not gonna fractionize their share. [00:35:01] Dan Runcie: Right. [00:35:02] Vickie Nauman: And that's also something I always have to tell the companies that want to do this. [00:35:05] Like I'm going to now tell you some really disappointing news. but they're interested in doing some fractionalization of maybe just their writer's share or their performers share. And that's super interesting. And so, you know, how can we make that another income stream. [00:35:22] And then I think the third area that I'm really bullish about is the experiential side of, you know, we, we've seen during the pandemic, you know, and starting with starting with these things in Roblox and you know, Fortnite and you know, having these kind of pop-up experiences. Again, that's a proof of concept that if you put an artist in as an avatar and create some sort of activation, that people will come and they will buy virtual goods and they will have a great time. [00:35:56] So I think you know, that's, again, we're just barely scratching the surface of where these more experiential things will go with AR VR. Just, you know, web-based and mobile-based and, you know, avatars, you know, live streams I think fit in there as well. And I also think that the way the internet and even websites, the way that they work now, where you are, kind of view, go to a menu and you click on things and you get a flat page that tells you this is, you know, who the people are, this is what the products are, you know, like even the most basic things about how we engage online I think are going to change. And so I think there's going to be much more, you know, immersion and interactivity and real, you know, real time engagement. And to me that's just feels like that's just so perfect for. You know, small artist, activations where you don't need 20 million songs. [00:36:52] You just need a couple of artists who really want to do it. And I think that we will have just a really, really wide range of ways for people to enact more meaningfully with artists performing online. [00:37:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think the collectible piece was a key point, and I also think that artists just being able to have communities around this too. I think we probably overestimated the investing piece just because I don't think that the average fan is going to be as interested in that piece, and I think that was a big selling point. [00:37:21] It's almost in the same way that like we all may have Apple devices, but how many of us are owning stock in Apple as a result of us wanting to see the thing right. But I do think that the collectible piece is huge. Obviously you see it in people wanting to have physical media, whether it's cassettes or vinyls going up. [00:37:37] So there's an aspect there that I think will continue to be tapped into, but it'll be fascinating to see how that plays outthe other emerging technology space that I know you've done some work into is VR itself. And I know that one of the companies that you worked with extensively was acquired by Meta and although you know, from my purview, they seem to be one of the more successful companies in a landscape that I think has been a bit slower to have that mainstream adoption than a lot of people thought with VR more broadly. So where do you see with that space right now? [00:38:10] Vickie Nauman: Yeah, it, you know, VR at the beginning, you know, it had so much promise of, you know, being, you know, being transported to, other worlds and having, you know, having this 3D environment around you. But I always felt like it's going to be gaming, that would be the catalyst to this because I think there's also, you know, there's also something like how much time does anyone want to sit in a headset? [00:38:39] And you know, you generally, it's kind of like, you know, remember when 3D TVs, we're huge, and everyone's like, no, we're not gonna sit around our house with these funny glasses on for hours at a time. It's just not going to happen. But I think that gaming has really been an enormous entry point in, and, you know, Beat Saber is the VR game that was acquired by Meta and continues to do extremely well with this customized gaming rhythm But I think that, you know, part of it is we need the headsets and things to shrink and we need them to be, a little bit more, you know, a little bit more comfortable. We need to be able to spend more time in them, and we need to have more experiences than we have right now. [00:39:28] And I think that there are things, you know, there are lots of companies that are starting to build even like, you know, meetings and,you know, are we going to have meetings with people in the metaverse and in virtual reality? There are companies that are doing enterprise-based training for employees that are using VR you know, and using these technologies in ways that I think is not gimmicky, but it will actually lend, it will actually lend to human emotion and feeling close. [00:40:00] but I think with everything with web three, we're going to have a blend of, these things, you know, AR is generally considered to be more accessible than VR because you know, you don't need as much equipment. But I think as, all of these things grow and we start to get more platforms and you know, more variety of use cases that we'll probably see a blurring between AR and VR and lighter weight. [00:40:28] hardware and more cost effective hardware, and that will just help to grow. That'll help to grow the market. [00:40:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think for a while VR kind of had a bit of that sharper image vibe, I would say where, Yeah, you know, you go in the store, there's these cool forward technology things, but not necessarily something that I would wanna have in my house, right? And I think over time, to your point, the headsets get smaller, gets a bit more accessible. [00:40:54] We'll eventually get there. It's just a matter of the use case said, Yeah, to your point, I think gamers, if anyone, you think about the people that are gonna be wearing a headset while they are playing Call of Duty or whatever it is, they're probably the audience that's more likely to have another device over their head as they are interacting with game. [00:41:13] Vickie Nauman: Exactly. Exactly. And I think, you know, fitness is another area that, with VR originally was like, oh yes, you know, are there ways to simulate, you know, downhill skiing and hiking and cycling and, you know, being in this expansive different world than being in your house. but you know, you don't really wanna just be sweating, you know, sweating in your, headset either. And so I think the only, like, there probably needs to be some evolution, if that's a big enough market to support specific hardware of fitness, you know, then there probably are people who really want to do that. but you know, we're still kind of trying to figure out what this entire next iteration of the internet is going to be, and I can't imagine that VR won't be a part of it. [00:42:05] Dan Runcie: And I think the other emerging platform that'll likely or emerging medium, that might likely be a part of it somehow is AI and that's the one thing we haven't talked about deeply yet today, but where are you at right now with AI and let's fast forward five years from now, 2028. What role does AI have with music, and specifically with what the major record labels and their artists are doing? [00:42:28] Vickie Nauman: I know. I mean, it's just like, I feel like web three is, we kind of have some time because I feel like you know, companies are building infrastructure, there's lack of, you know, horizontal integration and interoperability. We have time to kind of keep experimenting and figuring it out. AI is coming at us like a freight train right now, and I think maybe five or six years ago when. [00:42:54] AI and music first came on, the first came on the horizon. A lot of people were freaked out by it. Then they listened to the music and said, that's pretty bad, you know, now, we're not worried anymore. But now music's getting way better. and I think that, I kind of look at it in a couple of different, you know, avenues because I feel like the first thing that I see is artists. And artists are always the first to embrace any kinds of creator tools. You know, they're not afraid of technology, they're not afraid of tools, you know, you think back to drum machines, you know, my God, the drum machine's gonna eliminate drummers, you know, we don't need drummers anymore. Well, we didn't, you know, we still need drummers. [00:43:41] But it did serve a purpose. Practicing and, you know, don't need to have you know, a drummer there to practice your songs. Don't need to always take a drummer on tour if you're doing some sort of small, intimate shows, but we still need great drumm. so I think that artists are probably going to be the first ones to embrace and use technologies that are like, think of plugins to DaaS and, you know, and that you've got a writer's block and you want to have something kind of help pull some things out of your head and break through that. [00:44:13] So I think like that is going to be a really, really robust market. And those are still very much human creations. They're just tools that are now a little bit more advanced. [00:44:25] you know, the opposite end of it is text to music,  [00:44:29] and that's where I think like, we have no idea how that is going to play out and who owns it either. [00:44:37] I think that electronic music is kind of the first use case because it's easiest to replicate and come up with, you know, a new electronic mix that's AI generated as opposed to something that is, you know, got, you know, 12 instruments in it. But, I still feel like there's a line there around what are the areas where it's, music is still kind of human created and you can never get it away. [00:45:03] Vickie Nauman: And live music for sure, you know, there's nothing that replaces being in a room and you're waiting for your favorite band to come on stage. And we're all human and we're all there in this shared experience. and I also think that there are things about human creativity and music that surprise you and that, you know, kind of, you know, a human can take you down an emotional path or a musical path that you never, ever would've anticipated. [00:45:32] And that's something that, that seems inherently human. But I think there's a lot of things, like a lot of background music. A lot of music that's kind of music for sleeping, music for concentration, you know, non-descript, you know, unknown artists production. I think that area is probably ripe for disruption by AI. [00:45:57] , you know, but it just still doesn't answer some of these fundamental questions about the copyrights of, if you fed an AI engine, millions of songs and it can now reproduce music based on a text command, you know, who owns that? You shouldn't t he music that was fed into the AI participate in that. [00:46:20] Dan Runcie: right. Because right now there's nothing that's necessarily pulling them, that they're pulling these from whatever, lyrics, websites that are there, but the lyrics, websites aren't, you know, pulling from those. So a lot of issues to sort through. [00:46:32] Vickie Nauman: Yeah. what do you think about? [00:46:34] Dan Runcie: I mean, I'm excited for the potential because I do think that if the industry is able to get it right in some way, if there's a way to fairly compensate people, like let's say that whether it's open AI or one of these companies has some way that they have a licensing agreement, no different than the record labels have licensing agreements with the streaming services or the dsbs. If you have something there that attributes some level of, okay, how much was pulled from here, and even if it ends up being some fractional aspect or whatever it is, obviously it would most likely all be some fraction, some way to attribute that back, especially if that becomes the next viral TikTok hit. [00:47:14] If that then spawns the journey for the next person to release the next big song, and you think about, whether it's the next Billy Eilish or whoever is creating music in their bedroom that's gonna release the biggest album of the year, like that's likely where this is gonna come from. I do think that's some of the things that we discussed in this conversation about how. [00:47:32] because the industry is more likely to not be in this break things fast mentality, to make sure that things are right. It's more likely to play catch up on some of those things, which I think, you know, could be frustrating to see it play out, but it's completely understandable just given how these things play out. [00:47:49] So maybe we'll see some more, of this happen from independent artists or those that are doing more things where they own everything themselves, kind of to your point with whether it's Poo Bear or other people like that, experimenting. Okay, what could that look like? So I think we'll probably see some type of innovation there. [00:48:06] Or maybe there's even a solution where some company has more rights to more of the royalty free or independent artist owned music where that can then be used as something derivative from where the OpenAI or chatGPT three or some of these companies can pull from. But I think we're a little ways away from that. [00:48:27] Vickie Nauman: But there's clearly no stopping it. [00:48:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, this is a train that is gonna continue to go on for sure. But Vicki, this is great. I feel like we covered a bunch of stuff, especially with gaming and so many of its intersections. And if people wanna follow along with you and the work that you're doing, where's the best place that they should follow Thank you so much. [00:48:47] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast, that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. The gaming industry is larger than music and film combined. We’ve seen big music collabs in Fortnite, Roblox, and more, but there’s room to leverage music even more.

 

That’s been a big focus for Vickie Nauman, who works at the intersection of music and gaming. She consults for major record labels, game developers, and more through her company, CrossBorderWorks. She’s also worked on big virtual concerts, like David Guerra and Saweetie in Roblox, and VR games like Beat Saber. 

 

But there are plenty of friction points between music and gaming. As Vickie said, the music industry likes to get money upfront, whereas gaming is fine getting it on the back-end. Then there’s the long process of clearing music from rights holders to even use in games. It makes it tough to move quickly

 

It’s even more challenging because of how fast technology is changing. New virtual experiences are being created daily, which adds pressure on the music industry to sort this out.

 

Vickie and I covered all this and more. Here’s everything we discussed:

 

[1:40] What attracted Vickie to gaming

[2:40] The gaming moment that finally struck a chord with the music industry

[4:33] Similarities and differences between gaming and music industries

[10:09] Why Travis Scott’s Fortnite concert clicked but others haven’t

[9:53] Can gaming have its Kate Bush - Stranger Things moment 

[15:47] Why the music industry plays catch up to technology

[21:33] Clearing 143 writer’s share for David Guetta’s Roblox concert

[28:45] Dot-com bubble era of web3

[30:45] Music will evolve differently in web3 experiences

[36:17] What’s slowing down virtual reality adoption?

[41:26] AI is coming at the music industry like a freight train

 

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

 

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Vickie Nauman, @vnvnvnvn


This episode was brought to you by trac. Learn more about how artists can bring web2 and web3 together for their fans at trac.co


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

 

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.


TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Vickie Nauman: There are not an enormous number of opportunities for music and games. It's gaming is similar to the music industry where there are a handful of huge, huge, huge gaming studios, and then there's an inordinate long tail of small to mid-size gaming companies and, you know, very, very similar to music.

[00:00:19] So the few big studios, a lot of them are doing, you know, licensing and they get music in. But it's been much more common over the years to gaming studios just hire a composer and they just create a song that is right for the mood and the moment in the game, the gaming studio owns it and they're just done.

[00:00:40] You know, they don't have to worry about licensing or business models to incorporate music into the games. But I think for the most part, the music industry always likes to get their money up front, and the gaming industry likes to get all the money on the back end

[00:00:55] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more. Who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:01:22] Dan Runcie: This episode is all about the future of gaming, and today we'll be breaking it down with someone who understands this space in and out. Vickie Nauman. She is the founder and CEO of CrossBorderWorks, which is her consulting and advisory firm, which works with some of the biggest major record labels, streaming services, and more on the intersections of word music meets technology, gaming, and several other emerging tech platforms.

[00:01:47] We talk about what music and gaming's challenges and opportunities are in the future, how games are monetized versus music, some of the opportunities there. We also talk about the music industry itself and why the music industry often sometimes plays catch up with regards to emerging technology, how that impacts her work.

[00:02:07] And what it can look like for gaming, to have that huge sync moment that Kate Bush running up that hill moment like we saw on Stranger Things. What could that look like for music in a video game? I think we've seen several successful examples over the past couple of decades, but we'll continue to see more as gaming in the Metaverse, Web three, and AI continue to intersect and influence this space.

[00:02:29] Really great episode. It was great to have her share her insights here, and I hope you enjoy it. Here's our chat.

[00:02:36] All right. Today we're here to talk about gaming music and so many of the intersections it has, and wanted to talk with someone who understands this space better than almost anyone that I could reach out to Vickie Nauman, who has consulted and worked with many of these companies in music and gaming.

[00:02:53] Vickie, welcome to the pod.

[00:02:54] Vickie Nauman: I am so happy to be here. I'm a huge admirer of your writing and your work and it's an honor.

[00:02:59] Dan Runcie: Thank you. Appreciate that. So what is it for you that attracted you to this space? It's been an emerging space for some time, and it feels like the music industry is now starting to put more emphasis in, but you had been focusing even before the current wave has been there. What attracted you to it?

[00:03:16] Vickie Nauman: Well, I've always looked at gaming and I'm one of these people who for years was telling the industry. Gaming is bigger than music and film combined, you know, it is a massive, massive industry and they're, you know, and almost all the monetization is built on low friction, high engagement in-app purchasing.

[00:03:37] And so companies are releasing games that are free and they're making billions of dollars. There's, you know, there's lessons for the music industry. I feel like it all fell on deaf ears. People are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, companies come to us and. We wanna license them our whole catalog, and they don't want it.

[00:03:53] And so there's nothing for us to do. And then, Marshmello did a set in Fortnite and got 10 million people to listen to his music, and that struck a chord in the, you know, in the industry. you know, and importantly, it didn't necessarily resonate with the digital business people who were always, you know, under an onslaught of new companies coming to try to get rights.

[00:04:19] But it was in marketing and a and. and then there was like, it was a moment where I think everyone started to realize the power of gaming and the hundreds of millions and billions of people who are playing games as a new platform in a new way for artists to reach, fans and to break artists.

[00:04:37] And it was interesting too because at that time I was working with Beat Saber. and they were this was in 2019 that all of this happened. And, Beat Saber was still an independent studio out of Prague, brand new game. And we were trying to get some of first songs in to that game.

[00:04:55] Vickie Nauman: We had worked with Monstercat before and we had these original soundtracks in there, but we didn't have any, huge major label acts and we were trying to license Imagine Dragons. And so I heard firsthand from labels and publishers all throughout that process of like, wow, you know, we really want to do more with gaming.

[00:05:16] And I credit a lot of that to Marshmello.

[00:05:20] Dan Runcie: And you talked a little bit about how gaming is just so much bigger than music, and part of it is because they're not necessarily selling the content itself. They are selling what you can do on top of it from things you can buy or other things that are less friction. The frictionless, as you mentioned.

[00:05:38] Had any of that come up, especially after the marshmallow event? Did any of that come up in any discussions about like, Hey, could this be an opportunity to rethink monetization a bit more broadly? Or maybe think about the bigger picture? What have some of those discussions been like?

[00:05:54] Vickie Nauman: Yeah, it's been really interesting actually because they're really in aggregate. There are not an enormous number of opportunities for music and games. It's gaming is similar to the music industry where there are a handful of huge, huge, huge gaming studios, and then there's an inordinate long tail of small to mid-size gaming companies and, you know, very, very similar to music.

[00:06:18] So the few big studios, a lot of them are doing, you know, licensing and they get music in. But it's been much more common over the years to gaming studios just hire a composer and they just create a song that is right for the mood and the moment in the game, the gaming studio owns it and they're just done.

[00:06:39] You know, they don't have to worry about licensing or business models to incorporate music into the games. But I think for the most part, the music industry always likes to get their money up front, and the gaming industry likes to get all the money on the back end. And so you know, there are these friction points that, you know, marrying a business model into a game is kind of an art because if you've already got an existing model and it's free, or there's, you know, in-game purchases, then how do, you know, do you try to incorporate music into that? Do you just pay the rights holders and get a deal for a certain period of time, or can you create a revenue share and some way to participate in the upside and, a lot of gaming companies are even huge companies are still new to this. And so they're kind of what I would call, like dipping their toes into the pool, you know, testing the waters and trying some small things. And then trying to figure out does this work for us?

[00:07:44] Do we need to, you know, do we need to create a big stack of technology to manage the rights? Most of them do not have an appetite to do. They certainly have the skills, which is part of what's so fun working with gaming companies is they have amazing engineers and really great minds about problem solving and coming up with these ways to engage users.

[00:08:06] But nobody really wants to dedicate engineers to building a rights management system. And so I think everyone is, you know, all the companies that I work with, they're trying to kind of simplify things with music, try it out, find out what their users want, what their gamers want, because that's another big thing is, you know, you have to ask, you know, gaming is such a culture and such a subculture and each game has kind of a different community in it and a different vibe, and so you really wanna make sure you're getting that. Your assumptions of what kind of music is going to work are in line with your user's expectations.

[00:08:45] There was one company that I worked with that was like, had a lot of underground, you know, all, their users thought of themselves as very underground and they did a music thing that their users thought was too commercial, the gamers rebelled . So, so, the best thing is to ask the people who are gaming, ,you know, and your products.

[00:09:02] Ask them what they want.

[00:09:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that customer base, especially with gaming, I think is huge cuz it makes me think a lot back to that Travis Scott Fortnite integration, which was almost three years ago at this point, but it was the perfect combination of so many things. At the beginning of quarantines with the pandemic, but also there's such alignment between the type of person that's on Fortnite with the Travis Scott fan as well, which is why I think that one worked much better than some of the other A-list artist superstar artists collaborating in a digital gaming environment.

[00:09:37] Vickie Nauman: Yeah, I think that's a great, I think that's a really great point, and you know, because of the dynamic of gaming and the kinds of things that we're seeing, you know, it's not like a service that has, it's just music and it's going to put out hundreds of thousands or millions and millions of songs and just saying, You know, something for everyone, you know, let the end users find the music that resonates with them with, when you're picking and choosing a couple of artists or a couple of songs, you know, you kind of have one shot. And it reminds me of, you know, I used to work in radio before I started doing all of this, and. there was so much science to the choices that we made in radio because we knew that you know, we had one signal and we had to choose artists.

[00:10:24] You know, if we said our demographic is, you know, 18th to 34, urban men and women who are professional and make a hundred thousand dollars a year and above, if that's your demographic, then you have to say, what kind of music and what kind of programming and what kind of announcers and events. Gotta get it.

[00:10:45] And that's very similar to the way things are when you're doing things in the metaverse or gaming where you're like, well, we're just doing, we're picking a few things and we really wanna light them up, but we need to get them right. We need to get the user experience, we need to get the right artist to fit with the right user base.

[00:11:04] And then how we present it, how we monetize it has to also be something that fits within the gaming community.

[00:11:14] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I feel like that lines up with something else you had said in recent interviews talking about gaming syncs and the potential there and how there may not be as much because a lot of the game developers are doing in-house music now, but it can grow in the future. And I'm thinking about, especially this past year, we saw the Stranger Things moment with Kate Bush running up that hill and I assume like it's only gonna be a matter of time until we see a gaming moment that is at that level or something like that, or maybe there already has been ones that have been at that level.

[00:11:45] Vickie Nauman: No, I think it is a really good point there as well that, that I think with the Kate Bush moment or Fleetwood Mac with the skateboarder and the, you know, cranberry juice that we've had these cultural moments in social that have, Absolutely lit up music for a new generation, which I love.

[00:12:05] I mean like kids bought tickets to see Fleetwood Mac in concert after listening to 20 seconds of one song. And that's so exciting and I think, it will get there with gaming. and I think when you think about the limited number of opportunities and then then the limited number of artists or songs that can be integrated into every game, I think that we are really, really at the early end of the early part of that spectrum.

[00:12:34] I don't think we've even begun to really let the music industry and the gaming industry come up you know, with that Kate Bush moment or the Fleetwood Mac moment. and I think that, what I love about gaming as well as you know, other kinds of audio visual is that when you hear it, you know, you hear the music differently when you're gaming and you know, like Beat Saber, I've worked with them for many years.

[00:12:58] Vickie Nauman: I also work with Niantic on, they have a new NBA game and you know, with Ubisoft and some early stage gaming companies but with Beat Saber there are certain songs. that I've always loved. Like there's a, you know, a bunch of Green Day songs that are some of my favorites that I've listened to for 20 years, but now I've, played them in Beat Saber, and now whenever I hear the songs, I hear them differently because of the experience of having this immersive gaming and this gaming experience.

[00:13:30] So I think there's, I think there's just so much potential that we haven't yet been able to tap into. Some of it is also because there's been so much friction around licensing, and for the most part, I think sync licensing is the best way to do things in gaming because you want something specific and then you know, the artist and their team want to know how their music is being used and you know, you, take something to rights holders and if they're like, you know, we need more money or we don't like that rev share, or that artist has a conflict. And then you're like, okay, well, you know, we'll move on to something else. And then you know, ideally you get an artist and a label and a publisher and a writer and those teams that all say, wow, this is great. I would love to have my music in this game.

[00:14:21] And that's really where I think that, you know, if we can get those, all of those things right. that's the start of it.

[00:14:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and this conversation too is making me reflect on a few things. Cause I feel like music and gaming have gone through ebbs and waves like for instance, I know that there's always been music in games like Madden or like the NBA 2K series, for instance. But I think back to like Grand Theft Auto.

[00:14:43] I know one of the things there, they always had music. So they had this Vice City game that came out 20 years ago and that was all eighties. So I feel like for a lot of people of a certain generation, that was like their thing to go to. And then a couple years later, Guitar Hero and Rock Band, huge. Right?

[00:14:58] And then I think even those songs reintroduce, especially some of those classic rock song rock songs there. And you also had some of those Def Jam vendetta. video games as well. So now I think what's different of course is that these are more so, okay, how do we integrate them into these digital environments, the metaverse and things like that.

[00:15:15] So I'm excited to see, I still think that there is huge potential to see one of those moments happen, and who knows? I mean, I feel like the Kate Bush moment was largely, I don't wanna say unplanned, cuz obviously people expected it, but no one would've anticipated that it would've taken off that way.

[00:15:32] But that's how these things.

[00:15:34] Vickie Nauman: Exactly. I know, I know. I love it. like a lightning in the bottle, you know, where you're just like, wow, you know, we didn't, we really couldn't quite anticipate that things would resonate like that and, and especially reaching a gen, a new generation that probably otherwise would've never heard of Kate Bush.

[00:15:50] but I also think that with. you know, with music and gaming, what's, what's also so fun for me personally, is I've been doing music licensing and write based things for like 20 years now, you know? So I feel like an old lady when I say that, but I'm always the one chasing everyone, you know, I'm chasing labels and publishers and trying to put things in front of them, you know, what do you think of this? What about that? Have you thought about it? Is this approved? Is it not approved? Can we move forward? No, we can't. gotta start over. And this is the first time in my entire professional life where I. artists, publishers, labels, and songwriters coming to me now and saying, I wanna get my music in games, you know, and I wanna get my music in the metaverse.

[00:16:36] Vickie Nauman: how can we get band in the Metaverse? And I love that because, you know, for me, like self selection in the industry is huge. It's really frustrating when you have to drag people kicking and screaming into the future and into experiences. So I love it when people contact me and let me know which of their artists on their roster are really interested or even better, which, artists are gamers themselves and then they are already part of the community but then they want to take it a step further with their music.

[00:17:08] Dan Runcie: That's good to hear because I often feel like the music industry is playing catch up when it comes to emerging a new technology. In so many ways, dating back 20 plus years at this point. So the fact that people are coming to you now is good. Do you feel like that is true overall? Do you feel like the industry is at the moment, like right in step with where things are going?

[00:17:29] Or do you still feel like there's a bit of catch up?

[00:17:32] Vickie Nauman: I think there's always a bit of catch up, just simply because, you know, technology moves at such a pace. None of us can really quite keep pace with it. And then there's always these very similar dynamics where there will be some new technology that comes around, whether it's, you know, on demand streaming or live streaming or gaming or virtual reality, and now metaverse and NFTs and fractionalizing rights and all of those things in web three, and there's a very common pattern where these technologists, they look at music and they say, oh my gosh, this would be fantastic for my platform, you know, it will help me with adoption and relevance and get in, get some artists and some music in there, and fans will come and it'll all be great. And then they start talking to the industry and they learn about how music writes work, and that you usually can't just go to an artist and get what you need. They're usually signed or they have some management and they publishing is probably administered by someone and they all have their ways of doing business. And there's a moment where everybody then, you know, they have to decide, do we have an appetite to do this? Or should we just move on to something that isn't as complicated? Because music is great when you get it right, but not all companies really wanna do things right.,You know, and so, you know, we kind of go through this every time when there's new, you know, new user experiences that are emerging.

[00:19:06] And I think that the music industry is always, you know, takes all these things in. and then they start thinking, number one, is this a fad or is this something that's going to last? Is it worth us spending time and cycles to really engage with the companies on this particular kind of experience? And then how can we extract value?

[00:19:30] How can we make money? How are they making money? Is our deal going to outlive the the survival time of any given platform or company? There's a lot of people, I mean, it's very frustrating sometimes to do licensing, but I have empathy with all of the, with all of the rights holders, because I'm in the same boat where companies come to me and I have to just like, oh gosh, you know, it's a great idea, but you guys have never done anything before and, you know, can you build this? Can you execute you? Can you take it from a PowerPoint or a demo into a fully functioning product? And it's hard. And so I think that, you know, the labels and publishers they have assets to protect and they're, you know, and now increasingly artist management companies are also in the mix because a lot of things require artist name, image, and likeness rights.

[00:20:26] And sometimes that can come from the label, but sometimes it. So they're all in a mode where they have something to protect, they want to exploit and, you know, make money, but they have a lot to lose if they do things wrong. And so there's this inherent mismatch between how quickly things move in technology and how slow and methodical the music industry is about deciding.

[00:20:52] Whether they wanna move forward. And then there's the other issue, which we're faced with right now, which is all of these emerging use cases and people being kind of afraid of agreeing to the wrong terms and setting a precedent that they're later going to regret. And so, . when technologists complain about the music industry and they're like, they're so slow, they're so backwards, they don't understand our vision.

[00:21:20] It's like, well, they have a lot to lose. You don't have a lot to lose cuz you're a startup and you have a big idea. But these guys have, you know, they've been, you know, 20 years of companies just like you that have come before. And so I always try to encourage, I always try to encourage people not to just, you know, get so frustrated with music that you know that they abandon it because a lot of great Id great ideas die on the vine because of these mismatches. But to be patient and to also, you know, maybe you think you need Jay-Z. But I would challenge most early stage companies, you're probably not ready for Jay-Z.

[00:22:00] You know, like let's, you know, maybe find some earlier stage artists that might be more appropriate to your size and budget and a little bit more forgiving. And then you get product market fit and then start expanding and, you know, might end up with Jay-Z, but maybe you might find you don't need, you know, you don't need that to resonate with users.

[00:22:24] Dan Runcie: Right. The break thing things fast mentality of startups just doesn't always line up. And that's a good point too. You get approached by so many companies, you don't know who's gonna be there. And obviously that probably requires some level of evaluating these startups to see what makes sense. That's just one side of it.

[00:22:42] The other side of it is the patience to be able to see these things through. And I know you've seen this yourself with David Guetta and making sure his music can be cleared. Can you talk a little bit about that process?

[00:22:54] Vickie Nauman: Yeah, it was really crazy. I mean this was a project I did with Warner Music Group and I love what they're doing cause they're really trying to create a pipeline to get their artists into metaverse and new web three based experiences. And so, this was a year ago, David Guetta was doing a DJ set as an avatar in Roblox, and he originally had chosen 26 songs and then we narrowed it down to 20 songs.

[00:23:23] but you know, what I found was that those 20 songs represented 143 shares on the publishing Plus, almost all of them had shared masters. And what many people don't realize is when you're listening to music and you see, you know, here's a song featuring, you know, Shakira or somebody else, that featuring usually means that artist is probably on a different label.

[00:23:50] Vickie Nauman: And so even the sound recording can end up having multiple owners. and there was a certain point in the process where I start looking at these songs and I quickly saw like, wow, there are, you know, 10 of the songs that had, you know, all these writers who are not on a PRO, so they're non society, they don't have a publishing administrator.

[00:24:18] They may own one or 2%, which if you're in streaming and on-demand audio streaming, it doesn't really matter, the services can still use the music, even if you can't find the person who has one or 2% but if you're doing sync licensing, you need to have a hundred percent of the publishing at a hundred percent of the master recordings or the sound recordings cleared in advance.

[00:24:42] So I chased down. All of these people, these writers and people who had small shares, you know, they weren't registered anywhere. I found them on social media and got everything, got everything in there and approved. But for me, it was kind of an exercise in how well prepared or how poorly prepared are we for the world that's coming, which is all of these metaverse, web three-immersive platforms that are building creator tools directly into the platform, assuming that artists can just be nimble. And then you look at this, it's like David chose these songs, he wanted to mix these songs. And that's so unsustainable to think of, you know, being able to harness innovation.

[00:25:38] When you have 143 different rights owners that all have to be harmonized around the same deal, and then a third of them are people who are not even, you know, technically in the ecosystem of music, but they still have shares. And that's true for hip hop and electronic music. Pop music also has an enormous number of writers, but they tend to mostly be with pros and have publishing administrators. But in hip hop and electronic music, there's just a ton of people who are contributing to big songs, but they're completely outside of our ecosystem.

[00:26:16] Dan Runcie: That point reminds me of the news that had came out when Beyonce released her album, The Alien Superstar song had 24 songwriters on, and people were like, oh, well how does this happen? And I think for some people it became a bit of an eye-opening. Well, this is how a lot of this music gets created, and these are the people that either had a hand or they helped sample.

[00:26:35] There's so many things. And then if someone goes and samples, they only have superstar in the song that's gonna have all those same 24 writers, plus whoever helped them with that new song.

[00:26:44] Vickie Nauman: Exactly. I know, and like when you watch the Grammys and they go through the , the awards for composers, you know, and there's a paragraph, all these names that have contributed to each of these songs. and I think about it a lot though, like, you know, we've kind of, if you go back in history to the olden days, you know, fifties, sixties, seventies, you know, like in the fifties and sixties, most artists, it was very common to have a songwriting group and then an artist, someone performed someone else's songs.

[00:27:20] And then when the rock music came around, we had bands that it was like a big deal. Like we write our own songs. And so in that era, like if you're licensing rock music from the seventies, eighties, or nineties, it's great because there's like one or two writers on every song and it's usually the band and they've written every single thing.

[00:27:43] So you, you know, you wanna license one Green Day song, you're pretty much going to have the same mix across all of their music. And then you fast forward to the way people create now, and we have this incredible fragmentation where we have on average seven writers per song, but it's outsized in electronic music and hip hop.

[00:28:05] And so we have 10, 15, 20 writers on every song with these tiny shares and that just a trend of how people collaborate and how they create and samples and you know, people in the studio and people all, you know, collaborating all over the world. But I think a lot about where the industry is going. And Metaverse and NFTs and Web three and, you know, where you know, again, all of these platforms are assuming that you as an artist can come in and bring all the rights you need to be able to do something interesting with your fans and whether or not this is going to drive a different kind of creation because, it will definitely the artists who have just a one writer or a couple of writers.

[00:28:55] And who really have tight control over everything are at a much bigger advantage to be able to be nimble in the, in this next iteration of music experiences than writers, than artists who have 20 writers. And some of them they don't even know. And so, you know, I'm going to watch this because like, there's a producer, Poo Bear, you know, contributed to a lot of big songs, but he's doing an NFT project and he's just made a decision. I'm gonna write, perform, do everything on these songs that I'm doing in the NFTs. Cause I don't want to, you know, have to pull in an entire army of people to get them to approve.

[00:29:36] So I feel like, you know, thinking creatively about how you can take advantage of things without having all of this, administrative burden. It might drive and change some of how we see music being created.

[00:29:50] Dan Runcie: That's a really interesting point because I think broadly, everyone's been trying to figure out specifically with Web three and what's ahead, how do we best make this work? How do we make this into a real business vertical that can drive real revenue. It isn't just a fad. And I know you've spoken about this in the past, how felt like we were at this .com bubble era of Web three and where things are now more proof of concept, but not actual businesses, like more features, not necessarily companies, but where do you feel like we are now and if any of the things that have been good examples, does anything stick out to you to be like, okay, like that's generally how this could be done and how we could approach Web three.

[00:30:33] Vickie Nauman: Yeah, This does really remind me of the early two thousands, because. There are so many things that, like in back then, we would do things like order a pint of ice cream to be delivered by someone and no markup. And it's like, that's ridiculous. That's not a real business. But it was a proof of concept that you put your name in, put a credit card in, you order something and they promise to deliver it and it, comes to you.

[00:31:02] And so, I feel like, you know, and then out of the ashes of all the companies that burn through venture capital, you know, inflamed out or had some great idea, but there was no business model to it. And somebody else then saw it and said, if we do what they did, but we do it this way, you know, we're in the midst of that process.

[00:31:25] And back then out of the ashes of everything grew, companies like Amazon you know, and there were certainly lots of casualties, but I think we're kind of in that phase right now with Web three, and I'm still really bullish about it, but I think that we've, I think that we have now because of crypto and what people saw with FTX, you know, their eyes have been open a bit.

[00:31:51] and a lot of the companies that have been doing things with music and NFTs and, you know, some of them have been really lucrative and successful, others haven't, but it's all part of the process. but I think that some of the things that I see I think that music is going to evolve slightly differently in all of these web three experiences than maybe, non-musical, activities.

[00:32:14] Like, especially in NFTs. I think the dynamic of, you know, of buying and collecting. Visual art is going to have its own trajectory. But I think, music in token based communities, I mean, I think there will be a point where we'll probably look back and be like, damn, remember when we talked about NFTs, non fungible tokens?

[00:32:35] Sounds this ridiculous name. But I think that what we will see is these artist communities that are artist centric, that are token based, and it's like fan clubs 2.0, you know, interactive fan clubs with different ways to, you know, limit membership. Maybe you can co-create with the artist. Maybe you are getting a access to ticketing or the artist in some way.

[00:33:04] that there's benefits and ways to pull a small community of people around an artist together. And then We've had a lot of these artists direct to fan initiatives for many, many years that most have failed because they required the artists to do too much. The artists are artists, you know, they wanna be artists.

[00:33:23] They don't want to spend all their time, you know, on 20 different platforms. But I think these are different because I think there's something inherent about, you know, artists and fans that is the most golden connection that you can possibly have in music. And we currently have artists and fans and then, all the different platforms and labels and publishers and, algorithms and transaction engines and, you know, followers and all of these things that are keeping many, many, levels separate of separation.

[00:33:58] And now I think we can bring them much closer together. So I think that's one experience that I think is going to have an enormous and outsized, positive effect for music. And I think some of these will have music in them and some of them won't. And, some of them will be more about the artist's brand and their likeness and you know, their personality, their identity.And then I think another, use case in web three is, this fractionalizing rights and allowing users to invest in music. because this requires, you know, SEC, you know, this is like full investment, you know, you have to really, really get that right. I think there will be very few companies that end up in that space.

[00:34:44] I think it's 

[00:34:45] Vickie Nauman: just you know, the lift is too much for the average, but I think there will be a really viable marketplace. And I've talked to writers and performers who are also even signed, cuz if you're signed to a label or a publisher, you know, you're not gonna fractionize their share.

[00:35:01] Dan Runcie: Right.

[00:35:02] Vickie Nauman: And that's also something I always have to tell the companies that want to do this.

[00:35:05] Like I'm going to now tell you some really disappointing news. but they're interested in doing some fractionalization of maybe just their writer's share or their performers share. And that's super interesting. And so, you know, how can we make that another income stream.

[00:35:22] And then I think the third area that I'm really bullish about is the experiential side of, you know, we, we've seen during the pandemic, you know, and starting with starting with these things in Roblox and you know, Fortnite and you know, having these kind of pop-up experiences. Again, that's a proof of concept that if you put an artist in as an avatar and create some sort of activation, that people will come and they will buy virtual goods and they will have a great time.

[00:35:56] So I think you know, that's, again, we're just barely scratching the surface of where these more experiential things will go with AR VR. Just, you know, web-based and mobile-based and, you know, avatars, you know, live streams I think fit in there as well. And I also think that the way the internet and even websites, the way that they work now, where you are, kind of view, go to a menu and you click on things and you get a flat page that tells you this is, you know, who the people are, this is what the products are, you know, like even the most basic things about how we engage online I think are going to change. And so I think there's going to be much more, you know, immersion and interactivity and real, you know, real time engagement. And to me that's just feels like that's just so perfect for. You know, small artist, activations where you don't need 20 million songs.

[00:36:52] You just need a couple of artists who really want to do it. And I think that we will have just a really, really wide range of ways for people to enact more meaningfully with artists performing online.

[00:37:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think the collectible piece was a key point, and I also think that artists just being able to have communities around this too. I think we probably overestimated the investing piece just because I don't think that the average fan is going to be as interested in that piece, and I think that was a big selling point.

[00:37:21] It's almost in the same way that like we all may have Apple devices, but how many of us are owning stock in Apple as a result of us wanting to see the thing right. But I do think that the collectible piece is huge. Obviously you see it in people wanting to have physical media, whether it's cassettes or vinyls going up.

[00:37:37] So there's an aspect there that I think will continue to be tapped into, but it'll be fascinating to see how that plays outthe other emerging technology space that I know you've done some work into is VR itself. And I know that one of the companies that you worked with extensively was acquired by Meta and although you know, from my purview, they seem to be one of the more successful companies in a landscape that I think has been a bit slower to have that mainstream adoption than a lot of people thought with VR more broadly. So where do you see with that space right now?

[00:38:10] Vickie Nauman: Yeah, it, you know, VR at the beginning, you know, it had so much promise of, you know, being, you know, being transported to, other worlds and having, you know, having this 3D environment around you. But I always felt like it's going to be gaming, that would be the catalyst to this because I think there's also, you know, there's also something like how much time does anyone want to sit in a headset?

[00:38:39] And you know, you generally, it's kind of like, you know, remember when 3D TVs, we're huge, and everyone's like, no, we're not gonna sit around our house with these funny glasses on for hours at a time. It's just not going to happen. But I think that gaming has really been an enormous entry point in, and, you know, Beat Saber is the VR game that was acquired by Meta and continues to do extremely well with this customized gaming rhythm But I think that, you know, part of it is we need the headsets and things to shrink and we need them to be, a little bit more, you know, a little bit more comfortable. We need to be able to spend more time in them, and we need to have more experiences than we have right now.

[00:39:28] And I think that there are things, you know, there are lots of companies that are starting to build even like, you know, meetings and,you know, are we going to have meetings with people in the metaverse and in virtual reality? There are companies that are doing enterprise-based training for employees that are using VR you know, and using these technologies in ways that I think is not gimmicky, but it will actually lend, it will actually lend to human emotion and feeling close.

[00:40:00] but I think with everything with web three, we're going to have a blend of, these things, you know, AR is generally considered to be more accessible than VR because you know, you don't need as much equipment. But I think as, all of these things grow and we start to get more platforms and you know, more variety of use cases that we'll probably see a blurring between AR and VR and lighter weight.

[00:40:28] hardware and more cost effective hardware, and that will just help to grow. That'll help to grow the market.

[00:40:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think for a while VR kind of had a bit of that sharper image vibe, I would say where, Yeah, you know, you go in the store, there's these cool forward technology things, but not necessarily something that I would wanna have in my house, right? And I think over time, to your point, the headsets get smaller, gets a bit more accessible.

[00:40:54] We'll eventually get there. It's just a matter of the use case said, Yeah, to your point, I think gamers, if anyone, you think about the people that are gonna be wearing a headset while they are playing Call of Duty or whatever it is, they're probably the audience that's more likely to have another device over their head as they are interacting with game.

[00:41:13] Vickie Nauman: Exactly. Exactly. And I think, you know, fitness is another area that, with VR originally was like, oh yes, you know, are there ways to simulate, you know, downhill skiing and hiking and cycling and, you know, being in this expansive different world than being in your house. but you know, you don't really wanna just be sweating, you know, sweating in your, headset either. And so I think the only, like, there probably needs to be some evolution, if that's a big enough market to support specific hardware of fitness, you know, then there probably are people who really want to do that. but you know, we're still kind of trying to figure out what this entire next iteration of the internet is going to be, and I can't imagine that VR won't be a part of it.

[00:42:05] Dan Runcie: And I think the other emerging platform that'll likely or emerging medium, that might likely be a part of it somehow is AI and that's the one thing we haven't talked about deeply yet today, but where are you at right now with AI and let's fast forward five years from now, 2028. What role does AI have with music, and specifically with what the major record labels and their artists are doing?

[00:42:28] Vickie Nauman: I know. I mean, it's just like, I feel like web three is, we kind of have some time because I feel like you know, companies are building infrastructure, there's lack of, you know, horizontal integration and interoperability. We have time to kind of keep experimenting and figuring it out. AI is coming at us like a freight train right now, and I think maybe five or six years ago when.

[00:42:54] AI and music first came on, the first came on the horizon. A lot of people were freaked out by it. Then they listened to the music and said, that's pretty bad, you know, now, we're not worried anymore. But now music's getting way better. and I think that, I kind of look at it in a couple of different, you know, avenues because I feel like the first thing that I see is artists. And artists are always the first to embrace any kinds of creator tools. You know, they're not afraid of technology, they're not afraid of tools, you know, you think back to drum machines, you know, my God, the drum machine's gonna eliminate drummers, you know, we don't need drummers anymore. Well, we didn't, you know, we still need drummers.

[00:43:41] But it did serve a purpose. Practicing and, you know, don't need to have you know, a drummer there to practice your songs. Don't need to always take a drummer on tour if you're doing some sort of small, intimate shows, but we still need great drumm. so I think that artists are probably going to be the first ones to embrace and use technologies that are like, think of plugins to DaaS and, you know, and that you've got a writer's block and you want to have something kind of help pull some things out of your head and break through that.

[00:44:13] So I think like that is going to be a really, really robust market. And those are still very much human creations. They're just tools that are now a little bit more advanced.

[00:44:25] you know, the opposite end of it is text to music, 

[00:44:29] and that's where I think like, we have no idea how that is going to play out and who owns it either.

[00:44:37] I think that electronic music is kind of the first use case because it's easiest to replicate and come up with, you know, a new electronic mix that's AI generated as opposed to something that is, you know, got, you know, 12 instruments in it. But, I still feel like there's a line there around what are the areas where it's, music is still kind of human created and you can never get it away.

[00:45:03] Vickie Nauman: And live music for sure, you know, there's nothing that replaces being in a room and you're waiting for your favorite band to come on stage. And we're all human and we're all there in this shared experience. and I also think that there are things about human creativity and music that surprise you and that, you know, kind of, you know, a human can take you down an emotional path or a musical path that you never, ever would've anticipated.

[00:45:32] And that's something that, that seems inherently human. But I think there's a lot of things, like a lot of background music. A lot of music that's kind of music for sleeping, music for concentration, you know, non-descript, you know, unknown artists production. I think that area is probably ripe for disruption by AI.

[00:45:57] , you know, but it just still doesn't answer some of these fundamental questions about the copyrights of, if you fed an AI engine, millions of songs and it can now reproduce music based on a text command, you know, who owns that? You shouldn't t he music that was fed into the AI participate in that.

[00:46:20] Dan Runcie: right. Because right now there's nothing that's necessarily pulling them, that they're pulling these from whatever, lyrics, websites that are there, but the lyrics, websites aren't, you know, pulling from those. So a lot of issues to sort through.

[00:46:32] Vickie Nauman: Yeah. what do you think about?

[00:46:34] Dan Runcie: I mean, I'm excited for the potential because I do think that if the industry is able to get it right in some way, if there's a way to fairly compensate people, like let's say that whether it's open AI or one of these companies has some way that they have a licensing agreement, no different than the record labels have licensing agreements with the streaming services or the dsbs. If you have something there that attributes some level of, okay, how much was pulled from here, and even if it ends up being some fractional aspect or whatever it is, obviously it would most likely all be some fraction, some way to attribute that back, especially if that becomes the next viral TikTok hit.

[00:47:14] If that then spawns the journey for the next person to release the next big song, and you think about, whether it's the next Billy Eilish or whoever is creating music in their bedroom that's gonna release the biggest album of the year, like that's likely where this is gonna come from. I do think that's some of the things that we discussed in this conversation about how.

[00:47:32] because the industry is more likely to not be in this break things fast mentality, to make sure that things are right. It's more likely to play catch up on some of those things, which I think, you know, could be frustrating to see it play out, but it's completely understandable just given how these things play out.

[00:47:49] So maybe we'll see some more, of this happen from independent artists or those that are doing more things where they own everything themselves, kind of to your point with whether it's Poo Bear or other people like that, experimenting. Okay, what could that look like? So I think we'll probably see some type of innovation there.

[00:48:06] Or maybe there's even a solution where some company has more rights to more of the royalty free or independent artist owned music where that can then be used as something derivative from where the OpenAI or chatGPT three or some of these companies can pull from. But I think we're a little ways away from that.

[00:48:27] Vickie Nauman: But there's clearly no stopping it.

[00:48:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, this is a train that is gonna continue to go on for sure. But Vicki, this is great. I feel like we covered a bunch of stuff, especially with gaming and so many of its intersections. And if people wanna follow along with you and the work that you're doing, where's the best place that they should follow Thank you so much.

[00:48:47] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast, that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.


]]> 2963 no The Rise of Burna Boy (with Denisha Kuhlor) https://www.trapital.com/podcast Burna Boy will be the first African artist to headline a UK stadium show when he performs at the 60,000-capacity London Stadium this summer. It’s the latest sign of Burna’s starpower and Afrobeats exploding popularity. The Nigeria-born artist is one of the genre’s biggest stars. Burna has reached this level because of consistency (six albums in nine years), savvy performing strategies, and a headliner mentality.  To break down Burna’s rise, I talked to Denisha Kuhlor, founder of Stan, which helps artists identify and grow their fanbase. Stan has used Burna show giveaways to develop insight into his wide-spreading fanbase. Here’s what we discussed: [3:05] What sets Burna Boy apart from other African artists [6:26] Burna’s show at London Stadium [7:26] The Burna fanbase [7:52] Streaming era impact on African music [11:56] Returning to Coachella after 2019 drama [17:05] How Ye incidentally helped Burna break out [19:16] How fame is perceived in Africa vs US [20:45] Fans of Africa’s “Big Three” artists battling each other [21:50] Burna’s “contested” Madison Square Garden sellout [24:11] Possible missteps in Burna’s career [27:54] Projecting Burna’s future shows [32:20] His best career move [38:03] Building record label infrastructure in Africa [44:06] Five-year prediction for Burna’s career Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor This episode was brought to you by trac. Learn more about how artists can bring web2 and web3 together for their fans at trac.co Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: I think it was interesting, him being so vocal in the approach he took, I think a lot of, Ayra Starr did a documentary for Spotify and she's quite big, especially within West Africa. And she talked about touring in the United States for the first time, and she basically said that she viewed it as an opportunity to make someone her fan, right? [00:00:19] Like, just by someone attending her show, her goal was to convert them into a fan. Whereas, Burna definitely takes the approach of, "you should either already be one or recognize my fan base for what they are." I think in his case he's lucky cuz he's been able to back it up. especially when you look at Coachella to now. [00:00:40] but definitely a, an approach that's consistent with his brand.  [00:01:11] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is a case study style breakdown on the one and only Burna Boy. I was joined by someone who is a near expert when it comes to the world of Burna Boy, and that is Denisha Kuhlor, who has been on the pod several times, and she is the founder of Stan, where not only does she focus on how artists can engage their fan bases, she's actually been involved with ticket giveaways for Burna Boy's upcoming stadium show in London. So she has insights into what these fans are like, what are some of their preferences? And we talked about all that and more. We broke down, Burna Boy's rise. What are some of the key things to his success? What are some of the challenges? Talked about some of the other moments that he's had that we wanted to talk about. [00:01:57] Where does that stand with him? What is his standout moment and where things could really go for him from here on out? Really great conversation. If you enjoyed the one we did on Cash Money a couple weeks ago. This is something similar, but about an artist who is really having this moment right now, and we broke it all down. [00:02:12] Here's our breakdown on Burna Boy. [00:02:14] Dan Runcie: All right, today we have our case study style breakdown on the one and only Burna Boy, and who else is gonna join me then? Someone that understands him and the work that he's done in and out over the past few years. Denisha Kuhlor Welcome back to the pod. [00:02:29] Denisha Kuhlor: Thanks so much for having me.  [00:02:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I wanted to talk to you because you wrote that piece in Trapital several months ago, talking about how artists who have relied on music festivals, maybe there's something that they may regret down the road in terms of actually getting in there and building the true fanboy fan base. And you used Burna Boy as an example of someone that went through this and obviously he's blowing up. He's had a huge year and we've now seen so much growth, especially in the past few years of just how so many African artists have been able to rise and grow platform. [00:03:05] But Burna Boy has clearly been able to hit levels that many others haven't. What do you think it is that has set him apart? [00:03:13] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think one, just Bruno boy is very compelling, as an artist. I've seen him perform, last year twice. his Madison Square Garden show. Then I got to see him at, Afrochella now, Afro Future, in Ghana. And one, he is a live band, as crazy as that sounds, I feel like that's rare and rarer these days. as consumers, it kind of feels like we've gotten used to maybe a DJ or kind of that accompany accompaniment. So the live band aspect is a huge one for me, and I think he's very compelling on stage and has great, charisma. and then lastly, I kind of feel like he was everywhere this year. [00:03:53] You couldn't really. Escape him, whether it was last, last, as a hit or, him touring so much of the United States. I feel like if you didn't know about Burna boy, maybe a year or two ago, last year was definitely just a true breakout year for him on the global stage.  [00:04:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that makes sense. I think there was a couple other things that stuck out to me too. So he has been able to position himself as a leading man. I am the person that's headlining. I'm not just gonna be the person opening for the artist. gonna be the person that is doing the guest first. [00:04:27] And I do think that's some of the other artists who rose up from Africa, they have done a bit more of the, "okay, let me jump on the Drake verse. And then that becomes Drake's or things like that." although I know that Burna has done several guest appearances and feature shares, it hasn't been in that same way. [00:04:45] And I think he's still just been so focused on himself in that way. And of course it could take a little bit longer to develop, but it's almost like how in Hollywood you may see someone that is always positioning themselves as supporting acting roles. If that's where you're taken to blow up, it could be hard for the industry to see you. [00:05:04] The lead actor, but if you're willing to do the lead actor roles for the smaller things and you get the right thing, then you become seen as the lead actor on the big I feel like that's  [00:05:14] been his experience.  [00:05:15] Denisha Kuhlor: I'm totally aligned with you when, just based off you talking about that makes me think about some of his features on the continent. And he's largely broken those artists, right? You look at Bnxn,formerly known as Buju, right?  [00:05:27] And the Lenu remix who was signed a Burna. I first heard about Amapiano,because Burna Boy got on the Spoon, No No remix, and one of the biggest breakout stars of the continent, Asake, the Zumba remix, this year. So I agree, I think he's positioned his features as more as like, let me lend a helping hand and let me get your distribution and your visibility. But if I was. In African artists or emerging artists from the continent vying for a feature in some ways, I'd probably wanna Burna feature over potentially a big artist from the west.  [00:06:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think a lot of that is with his. And his persona, and we can get into that in a minute, but I that played into a lot of this. And as you said, he's been every run the past year and we're setting stage for an even bigger 2023 where he will do his stadium tour at London Stadium, the first African artist, a headline and do that. [00:06:26] What does that mean for his career? [00:06:28] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. One, I think it's just huge and a testament to how far music from the continent has grown. I think, you know, you look at the story or how people paint the narrative of how music from the continent has grown. And so often it's kind of like, oh, there's a population of people here or there's little, you know, subsets of people that are interested in the music. [00:06:51] Whereas now, it's makes it very clear that this is world music, right? This is pop music in a lot of ways in that people have embraced this music in the same way you look at, Latin music, right? And people are singing whether they know Spanish or not. I think it's really a testament to the ability to do that. So it's very exciting.  [00:07:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think you've also had a front row seat to this as well, because with your work at Stan, you've been doing ticket giveaways and things like that to really tap into who the Burna Boy super fans are. [00:07:26] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so we've found two things working with Burna Boy fans or Burna Boy fan pages. Is that, or maybe even three. I find that one you have the fan that maybe, it reminds them of home. So typically a fan with roots or ties back to West Africa or Africa more broadly, who's now living abroad or first generation, but there's a sense of nostalgia or home as a result. [00:07:52] I think you also have fans that are like learning or being introduced to, Africa. Through his music, which has been really fascinating and really cool to see us talking to a fan, based in France, right? That like taught herself pidgin and like wants to visit Nigeria because she's such a big Burna boy fan. [00:08:11] and that's also really, really cool to see. And then third, I think you just have like hometown pride, right? Like you look at people in Lagos or even other African cities and people are just really, really proud of what he's been able to do. So it's interesting seeing all the subsets of fans together. [00:08:29] Denisha Kuhlor: But as someone who's attended his shows, I think it's exhilarating when you watch it all come together.  [00:08:36] Dan Runcie: And just for some context for the listeners, what does your giveaway entail and what does that process look like? [00:08:43] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So, we run live interactive trivia games that allow us to test a fan's knowledge and how much they actually know about the artists. So everything from lyrics to questions that fans would only know if they watch music videos to general information about Burna boy that you probably would only get if you read his interviews  [00:09:04] or you just deeply know about him. Every time we're crafting these games, I actually learn so much more about, these artists that we work with. And so I say that to say, I'm continuously surprised not only by his fans' knowledge of his music and his lyrics, but also how intentional they've been about truly learning about him and what they feel he represents. And so I feel like he's done a really good job of being consistent in that narrative. [00:09:32] Dan Runcie: I think too, one of the other things that really works in his favor is that in the rise of the streaming era, we're seeing the rise of local repertoire and local language artists being able to rise and not just have to rely on Western cultures. And I think that the music industry has shifted a bit, or at least from a mentality perspective, and you could see this on the Spotify daily charts. [00:09:56] You can see there's so many places where there were so many artists who were used to being able to have that global footprint of essentially exporting their music elsewhere than making so much money they're now seeing less and they're seeing less because a lot of these artists are being able to do it themselves, and it's not just. [00:10:16] Burna Boy's being able to do this in West Africa, but he's being able to do this in France, which has, you know, a large West African population and some of these other corners of the world that do, and I'm curious to see how that will continue to develop, because you know how the diaspora and certain regions that. [00:10:34] You see more fans of West African artists than just West Africans in general, and how that will align with where someone like Burna Boy continues to tour and where some of the bigger concentrations of his fandom end up being. [00:10:49] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I think, you know, interestingly enough, like he also probably benefited from the rise of like macro things that maybe couldn't plan, but like one black panther, right? Black Panther, like reignited people's curiosity about Africa and maybe in a way in which, they hadn't thought of before you look at things like the year of return in Ghana in 2019 and this bridge or this desire to have a bridge between black Americans in the United States and you know, people in Ghana. [00:11:18] And I think all those like, factors made people, got people excited and got excited in a way that his music just set the stage. If you came to Ghana in 2019, you were gonna hear br boy and people were gonna take it back, right?  [00:11:33] Denisha Kuhlor: Davido said it best. He said, you know, Afrobeats will succeed because in America, everybody has one African friendand whether you realize it or not, like, you are exposed in some way, and I think as people's proximity changed and curiosity about each other and where people are from grew, especially as it relates to Africa, he really benefited from that.  [00:11:56] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. That makes sense. And I think the other thing too, that I think about for him this year, he of course has the huge stadium show in London, but he's also coming back to Coachella and very famously back to Coachella after being quite upset in 2019 about the size of his name on that Coachella poster. And this day, this year, this time around, his name is much bigger. Still not a but I'd be curious know what you think, like how he must have felt about that process. Was there some level of buy-in? Because I could see at his level him thinking that, okay, I'm a superstar. I should be a headliner. But if they're now putting him on that second line right under the headliner, then how that may affect him. Obviously it's still great placement, but. Yeah. [00:12:45] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know, it's interesting and I remember when that happened and in some ways I think it probably helped his brand and really showed like it was a testament to the type of artist that he desired to be. I do, you know, think it's interesting because you do see within Africa stars that are huge, right? [00:13:04] And maybe they're numbers, quantitatively don't show up on the Spotify charts, they're on YouTube or they're on other platforms. there's still quite of downloading, that exists within just Africa as a whole. So sometimes we don't necessarily see an artist as set the way we would, maybe with an artist in the States or with a huge listenership in the States, from a charts perspective or immediately. [00:13:27] But I will say is I think it was interesting, him being so vocal in the approach he took, I think a lot of, Ayra Starr did a documentary for Spotify and she's quite big, especially within West Africa. And she talked about touring in the United States for the first time, and she basically said that she viewed it as an opportunity to make someone her fan, right? [00:13:48] Like, just by someone attending her show, her goal was to convert them into a fan. Whereas, Burna definitely takes the approach of, "you should either already be one or recognize my fan base for what they are." I think in his case he's lucky cuz he's been able to back it up. especially when you look at Coachella to now. [00:14:09] but definitely a, an approach that's consistent with his brand.  [00:14:14] Dan Runcie: Right? Because I think that part of it too is there's clearly a western skew for a festival like Coachella. I know that when Burna had complained back in 2019 about where he was, people had shown where Kendrick Lamar was, I think it was 2012, and how small his name was compared to him being a headliner several years later. [00:14:35] Denisha Kuhlor: The difference there though is that Kendrick Lamar is from Compton, which is which is driving distance to Indio, California where Coachella is, versus Burna boy may have numbers, may have the base, it's is that base, if they're not a strong contention of them in the in Southern California, are they going to be able to get there? [00:14:58] And I do think that the fact that he is, you know, second because this year you're headliners, unless someone pulls out, you never know what happens. But, right now your headliners are Frank Ocean, Bad Bunny, and Black Pink. So he's, you know, just under there. So you never know what could happen. Things shift all the time, but I assume if based on his placement, it must be a pretty decent size bag as well. [00:15:21] At least I know for the headliners, the last I checked a few years ago, they were getting paid 4 million per weekend, which totaled 8 million total. so that's what I would assume the payday would be for, Bunny, Black Pink and Frank Ocean, but then that next row down probably isn't too far below that. [00:15:40] I mean, I'm sure it is less money, but I don't know how much less. [00:15:43] Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And when you look at like negotiating from just a hard tickets perspective, in terms of what he's been able to drive from last year alone, he definitely had some strong leverage from a negotiating standpoint. [00:15:57] Dan Runcie: definitely. And with someone like him too. I know that we've talked a lot about artists and how they're able to develop true fandom, and I think true fandom is the people that are showing up at your. Concerts and they know the words of everything and not just singing the TikTok part that goes viral that we've seen from whether it's many artists that have experienced that, that have had TikTok hits that have blown up. [00:16:24] How do you think that impacts someone like Burna boy, I don't necessarily feel like he is making music, quote unquote for TikTok. I know a lot of the stuff that blows up their artists don't have any control over, but how do you think that skews, like how do you think that soc or short form video has played a factor, if at all, in his career and his rise? [00:16:44] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think a few ways, one, touring, right? I think people want to go to a Bea boy show even if they haven't seen him before or only know a few songs. So I think it's definitely been really, really helpful there. I don't know how many, people know, like the story behind Ye, one of his breakout hits, but like SEO just like really helped him. [00:17:05] So he had the song, Ye. It was already uploaded to streaming platforms, and then Kanye came out with his album. . And so a lot of folks search for Kanye's album, but his, was still like ranking pretty high on Spotify. They actually released a video that that day or around that time thinking, thinking Kanye, for, for the album name. [00:17:25] So I do think in, this is what's so interesting. He's very true to himself in the sense that he's definitely not an artist that like hopped on those trends, right? Like TikTok is not really potentially his thing. he's not gonna be doing any TikTok dances, so he's still been authentic to himself. While I think galvanizing his fans or letting his fans know, he appreciates their effort and I believe his fans look at it more so it as like, let's spread this message, regardless of his participation. [00:17:58] That's something I always get from his fans specifically, it seems like you have different artists, with fan bases. Like the Barbz need Nicki to participate, they want Nicki to participate, right?  [00:18:09] Whereas Burna fans, I feel like they do their own thing. They know the temperament of the artists and what he likes to do, and so they don't, they're not really like rushing for him to, adopt maybe some of those technique.  [00:18:23] Dan Runcie: And that's an interesting breakdown. Do you think that any of that is compared to where the artist is from or just the nature of their fans? Thinking specifically about the Barbz versus Burna Boy's fans. [00:18:37] Denisha Kuhlor: Mm. that is interesting. You know, I can't say with certainty, but what I will say and as I've spent more time in Ghana is that there's a level of familiarity. I find, past, maybe, I don't know what it is, but past like, experiences that maybe invoke a certain socioeconomic status. There's a level of familiarity, that you'll find these artists like I've definitely maybe seen, or you can be in spaces with so many of these artists just casually like going to a restaurant or, you know, like you living your. [00:19:16] And, I do think that invokes a certain sense of familiarity in which fame is perceived differently here. like in Ghana specifically, you see a lot of, a lot of artists here with very little to know security. just like really doing regular things. it's very different, whereas the fame is more sensationalized it feels, in the states, like you can be in the club with Burna, he's walking up and there's not gonna be the, oh my god, Burna, like that kind of thing. It's very different in that way. So maybe that wouldn't really add much, at least to his core or his home base fans, because that familiarity is there.  [00:19:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it feels a bit the closest thing that I would. You have in the US is Atlanta, where you would have the artists that are at the mall or you see them walking around and stuff. And it isn't necessarily the same level of frenzy, although that may be a little bit different now, but in like, you know, the nineties, two thousands, you would see them a bit more. [00:20:17] And I think there was a bit more of that vibe that felt a bit more natural like, you know, you go to Magic City or something like that and you would see someone. I think the other thing that is distinctive too with the US fans versus maybe some of the fans, others, is that online, I think you do see a bit more of that hive behavior, specifically from a group like the Barbz, where I think there's almost a falsification to them. [00:20:45] Denisha Kuhlor: And in that, I mean the reactiveness to the other side and what they're saying, and there's almost the galvanization of that and how the barbs can galvanize in Cardi B take down, or a snide comment of someone trying to come at Nicki in a way, but they that bit of catalyst to feel galvanized.You know what's interesting? I do find it that I do think that Burna fans and maybe the big three, so for folks listening, within Africa, the big threes typically referred to as DeVito, Burna boy and Whiz Kids. So they all have their, various fan bases. And the only time I really feel like that's activated. [00:21:27] Seeing how their artists are doing in the West and comparing. Right. So, you know, obviously with Burna winning the Grammy, but and I talked to you about this, like his, Madison Square garden numbers were quite contested. Like if you actually look at the Twitter account that shares,ticketing information. That one was like retweeted so many times because it was the fan bases going back and forth. [00:21:50] Like he actually did sell out MSG versus didn't he? So it's very interesting because while, you know, in some ways like his hyper localized approach in terms of the themes of his music is what's propelling him on the world stage. I do think these fan bases are very curious to see just how well they're doing and they use that as the point of comparison, as it relates to other African artist.  [00:22:13] Dan Runcie: Wait, what was the contention that the fans had about the MSG sellout? [00:22:18] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so there were a few things. One, they felt like there weren't enough seats available.  [00:22:23] Dan Runcie: Oh, you did tell me about this.  [00:22:25] Denisha Kuhlor: True . Yeah. Like it was a true sellout. And, at first folks didn't believe that he had sold it out. So, it's also interesting with fan bases because you're now seeing like novice or people, fans knew to wanting to understand how the industry works and also wanting to dig into what that means. But that, I think gave the confirmation that he did sell it out,and led to other fan base battles over the discrepancies.  [00:22:56] Dan Runcie: Right? Yeah. Cuz you and I talked about this. It isn't like if someone just books like a music hall or a House of blues, purpose of that is for music venue. So the capacity's listed as the capacity, but for some of these sports venues, it could be very different because artists have such different set pieces and stage and production and you don't wanna perform with your back to people like yyou're gonna be different places. So  [00:23:18] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly.  [00:23:18] Dan Runcie: You can't compare the sellout for a Knick's playoff game capacity and be like, oh, well that had more people than Burna Boy's selling out MSG. It's like, it  [00:23:27] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. And that was a lot of, the conversation, which I thought was so interesting. But I also think it it came about because of how he branded it, right? One Night in Space was the name of that. It wasn't part of a tour, anything, it was just one night in space. And so there were gonna be a lot of eyes on that event, regardless. [00:23:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and you know, people always try to poke holes when they see something that surprises them that they probably wouldn't have, you know, seen otherwise. [00:23:57] So we've talked a lot about the things that Burna Boy's done well, how he's got to this point. Do you think there's any missed opportunities so far at this point in his career or anything that you've looked back on and be like, huh, I wonder if he did that differently, or even things that he may be doing after? [00:24:11] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so, I obviously have a company around fan engagement, so some of the fan engagement has been interesting. I will say, one thing that's been, very pleasant for me has been some of his intentionality around connecting deeper with his fans this last album he did host quite a few meet and greets, and had people bring their albums or you know, even bring their kids and like that kind of thing. [00:24:37] I felt like he was really like seeing and touching people, which is something that in the past it didn't really seem like maybe he was open to or necessarily had the appetite for. So that was nice to see. It sounds like, or at least for me, the professionalism when it came to One Night in Space was also great.  [00:24:56] the show started on time, ended on time. Can't necessarily say the same for some of his shows within Africa. And that can be due to a host of reasons, but it definitely does lead to, maybe folks will get different experiences. And that's what's so tricky in some ways about artists, in supporting artists. [00:25:16] He's also headlined Afro Nation, Afro Nation, Puerto Rico. They've pulled out the day before and he was replaced with Rick Ross, which upset a lot of fans. So, I say all that to say, I think. It's a Burna Boy production or Burna Boy affair. it seems like everything is phenomenal. and just A- plus end to end when there are other stakeholders. [00:25:41] The process doesn't always seem as smooth, at least for the end user experience, for the fan. so I, I think it sometimes becomes a question of like are we going to continue to pursue some of these opportunities with other stakeholders, whether that's festivals or, just some of these other events, right? [00:26:00] Denisha Kuhlor: Or are we going to take the bulk of our production or the bulk of our events or how a fan can interact with me from a live performance standpoint in-house, and control the end-to-end experience that way. [00:26:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I do think that this strength weakness here lines up with the things that we're saying before, right? If he's someone that wants to be the lead, you wanna be the focus. You're gonna put more energy into the Burna Boy Productions and you may take a slight at things that are not that right. And I think it's unfortunate if some of that distribution skews between the things you do outside of Africa are the things you do in the Western world that do buttoned up, but then when you're back home it has less energy, less focus because yeah, your day one fans of your stans are gonna feel like, okay, well now that he's stadium status, what do we get? [00:26:52] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. and in fairness, you know, some of that is probably, you know, thanks to the regulation, like there is no coming on at 2:00 AM at MSG. Like they will set everyone home. You'll not be allowed to perform. they will charge you a fine. so there's also I think just some of the like, again, the standards upheld within these ecosystems. [00:27:12] But it breeds a dynamic that it's unfortunate and I think is happening just overall where consumers are privy to this at this experience. As a fan that goes to see a show, I don't really wanna hear the promoter and technical issues and like production. I paid my money, I took my money to see this artist. [00:27:35] So, now the fact that fans are being so exposed in a lot of ways to all the elements behind these things, not only are making them more sophisticated consumers, in deciding whether to patronize you again, but it's taking away some of the magic that was entertainment and like show business.  [00:27:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I do think that for someone like him specifically, it is important to work on how could this product be the best that it can be? Whether you are doing it at home, whether you're doing it elsewhere, and obviously knowing where you're doing it elsewhere, you're involved with other productions, there's things that are gonna be outta your control. [00:28:13] And I know it's asking someone that is naturally more focused on putting more into the things they have more control into to still bring that same energy elsewhere. But hopefully, I'm sure that he wants to be eventually a headliner at a Coachella or a Glastonbury. I'm to do other stadium shows as well. That'll actually go to the next thing that I'll ask you, I think that if that's the goal, then some of that energy has to con continue there. So, two questions here, this is a two-parter. So the first one, obviously London is the first. Well, I don't wanna say the first, but at least it's the one of the biggest stages that he has had himself. [00:28:51] I think, you know, we'll see how many tickets end up being sold. I assume it'll probably be at least like 60,000 or so, just given the size of that place. But where do you think, if you could project where the next stadium shows would be based on his fan base, based on what you know, where do you think those would I would say Texas , somewhere in, Texas. I mean, Dallas and Houston have some of the biggest African populations, within the United States. And so when I think about that, not only do they have African, you know, or they're first gen or immigrant populations, but a lot of people have also been exposed just by proximity. [00:29:31] So I think, yeah, I think it would be either Houston or Dallas. Definitely somewhere in the States, I do think he could do somewhere else in Europe, but if looking at the data really does concentrate, at least in London and with the disposable income, I think that would allow for a show like that, for a show like that to be successful. Another thing about Burna that's interesting is, he's been touring. So a lot of these fans, you hadn't seen him two years ago. You definitely have had your opportunity to see him now. even when I think about, by the time I saw him at Madison Square Garden, I could have seen him at Afropunk right in New York as well. [00:30:14] He did summer or he was supposed to do Summer Jam. So there were like multiple opportunities, even just within New York to see him. So I wonder though, before he does that. There will be a bit of a, break, or at least new music so that the consumer feels like they're seeing something.  [00:30:31] Dan Runcie: What about Paris? [00:30:32] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So Paris is a really interesting market. He has a ton of fans in Paris and I talk to them quite often. I don't know though. I, I don't know if a stadium show can work there just yet. And part of the reason is because I do think that the market rewards in some ways, , those who try. [00:30:53] And while he's done a ton of podcasts, a ton of interviews, a ton of things, I can't say how much he's actually interacted with, you know, some of the French press andsome of the opportunities there. He did do something really cool, recently or, yeah, not too recently. where he did a like deep cuts performance for 300 fans and he just announced it on Twitter and folks got to go. [00:31:19] So I think he can work up to it just quantitatively. It might take longer than other markets. [00:31:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah, Paris was one that had in mind I think, those things you mentioned make sense. New York was another one too. Just given that MSG show and you have the MetLife stadium, I feel like like that could eventually happen. [00:31:39] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. I think New York makes a lot of sense. It's pretty close to, obviously, you know, DC and Virginia, which also have big African populations. New Yorkers have seen him and know, someone who attended the MSG show. I really felt like there was like a sense of pride, like folks were really excited to be there, and to see this. And it definitely makes you feel like in events. And one that you could partake in multiple times for sure. [00:32:07] Dan Runcie: Right. And two, with this, we talked about his missed opportunities, but what do you think about the best opportunity or the best move that he has made so far in his career? [00:32:20] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think one consistency. He's been pretty consistent about releasing new music, whether it came to the album that he released during COVID, as well as his latest album now. There's definitely a strategy, I think, of always being focused or always looking ahead or being able to see what's next. [00:32:40] And so he's been able to use consistency through his own music, but also relevancy by jumping onto trends that are new, whether it's or not new. I feel like the Ima piano folks are gonna come at me for that. But,whether it's Amapiano, right? or Asake who really brought a new sound for folks. [00:32:59] So I think he's been able to do that really well. I think it was really intentional of his team. We've gotten to see, and not to compare Burna Boy to Ice Spice, but as consumers, I think so often, we see folks, do really well as a result of a breakout hit and have these expectations of them that don't necessarily correlate. [00:33:23] And it's actually been really great to watch an artist like Ice Spice or even a Little Nas X kind of come into their own when it comes to their performance and stage play overall. Whereas with him, I think he really got to build that methodically and, and over time, get comfortable on stage, see what works, what doesn't work, figure out the kinks of working with the band. [00:33:44] And so he's really, really been able to perfect and invest in his live show, which we're seeing dividends on now, while also maintaining just the consistency of new music and relevancy, which is quite d  [00:33:57] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think the Ice Spice is interesting because I was talking to someone about this a couple days ago and she had just put out her project, and I think it may be sold around like 15,000 units. And that of course sparked some discussion. And the thing is, it's hard to even frame something like that as a negative because six months ago, most of you didn't even know who this was, if we're  [00:34:23] So we have the nature of the internet being able to help someone skyrocket into a different level. Almost overnight, and then just realizing that her team, everyone else has to catch up. It's a very different situation, like where Burna Boy is showing you that, yeah, it takes time to get to this point. [00:34:42] I mean, if he starts really releasing music, you know, early 2010s. By 2017, still doing small venues in New York. And then it really until, you know, a couple years later where you're being able to hit that. If you even get to that point, it's so hard. And I do think that live performances in the honest you command is one of the few things that can't quote unquote blow up overnight and it's, if anything is the more humbling thing that we see. I think streams can be somewhat humbling to some extent, as you've seen, but even that can be misleading. So it does at least ring true, and I think for me, I'd spoke about this earlier, but the thing about his career that I think is the best move for him was just continuing to position himself as the lead and not necessarily, you know, following the latest trend just to hop on it. Although I think he was smart about things, but not just trying to attach himself. I think he still had the brand there and it took longer than some may have, you know, wanted, or maybe even he saw himself, especially, I can only imagine, you know, it's 2015, you're doing this for a few years, things still bubbling. [00:35:53] So I do think that worked to his advantage cuz now it's really only a handful of artists globally that can say they're in that position. And then really his whole continent, you know, of the big three is at least the one that has the most exposure and platform in base right now. [00:36:09] Denisha Kuhlor: What did you think of? I feel his choice to embrace Artis from the west like his last two or three really, his last maybe three albums, you see like a really conscientious approach, whether he's had everyone from YG to Keilani, had Diddy executive produce an album, and that felt really intentional to reach, listenership or an audience from the westlike you said, it's probably tricky like if that went wrong, it could have really went wrong but in his case it seemed to go right, but I'm curious what you thought that.  [00:36:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think part of the reason why it worked is like, I feel like he picked artists that felt somewhat aligned with like what he was doing too like I, at least from what I read, I think the YG track may have potentially would've involved Nipsey, but you know, Nipsey had passed, so like that didn't work. [00:36:58] It's not as if he was just hopping on, you know, who is the hot single that like needs someone or like, you know, the Drake or whoever else. And not that I think with Drake is an issue, but because obviously is done and then Bad Bunny's continue to grow. But I feel like because he's like picking certain artists and maybe not every pick I necessarily, you know, thought was like his best music, but there seemed to be a ality with people that like lined up with him where it's like, okay, I've listened to enough why G'S music over the years? [00:37:28] I could see why someone like Burna Boy would want to do music with him, right? So I feel like for me, that piece of it did line up and I know that if you're trying to grow there, there's some inevitable push of who can I align myself with that isn't just trying to do the generic pop thing. Like I don't think I would ever hear him beyond a Maroon Five song, which I do feel kind of becomes like a bit of a rite of passage for a lot of, Western hop artists. [00:37:57] But I'd be very surprised if I ever saw Burna Boy. [00:38:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. No, that makes sense. That makes sense.  [00:38:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah. the other thing that I think this conversation taps into is just the broader growth and the broader expansion of record labels and infrastructure in Africa from what the music industry to do and how Burna Boy's been able to help. In many ways, not just, I don't wanna say necessarily lead that because I think he's did a lot of this without the infrastructure. [00:38:26] If anything, the infrastructure has kind of started to come as a result of what he's done. But I've also heard a few rumblings from different folks that some of the investments of certain record labels, some of the majors having offices there, there's been questions about how they're seeing what's viable, what makes sense now because some of the artists that blew up, they don't have those artists on those labels, so now they're trying to find the next person and they're realizing that really hard to do that. [00:38:55] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know what's interesting, and I thought a lot about this is I feel like most artists on the continent don't necessarily need help on the continent. So much to our point of thinking about like Coachella, that was so surprising to Burna Boy because he was a huge star within Africa. [00:39:11] and when you look at the labels, he's engaged, for like a more global expansion. The thing I think he's been very clear of and his mother and the rest of his team is that like they've got Africa covered. And so I do think that could be part of the reason why maybe some of these labels are struggling because in a way it probably makes sense or the hunches to put more money or investment into what's already working, which is within Africa. When in reality I think it, it forces you to start to iterate and experiment on what's gonna resonate in terms of an artist, fans, an artist who has fans abroad, or them starting to build their broad audience. [00:39:53] And while an African audience it probably validates a lot of things, right? Maybe stage, presence, charisma, ability to connect, that the music is global or can reach people like it, that change or that shift. now being in the states or being in Europe is also quite different as well. [00:40:11] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think it forces labels to take a true A and R approach, whether it comes to everything from media training, Interacting, there's cultural differences. And so, I think it's going to lead way to maybe a new type of executive. it's something I thought a lot about music programs like the Music Business Academy,in Africa. [00:40:33] That's done really, really amazing work. I continue to be really, really impressed with the folks at Maven. And what their talent is doing, I think, for the African music ecosystem. But, with that being said, I think that the ecosystem is still getting to the point. where it's maturing, but also maturing in a way where folks can capitalize not only on the talent from the ecosystem, within Africa, but there being true connections, going both ways, because that's ultimately where the label will be able to recognize their power. [00:41:05] But for an artist that is already successful in some ways already getting Booked for shows. You look at, you know, where Tua Savage was by the time she got signed, or a DeVito by the time, he got signed abroad, they're already huge stars, which in some ways is different than what labels are used to signing in the States. [00:41:27] They, you know, would either find an artist and before invest the development in them or find an artist who's had maybe success digitally, but are working with them, on some of their more physical initiatives. So, I think it's interesting, but I also think it's a bit of a, different framework or thinking that some of these labels need to do in terms of the true maturity of the talent at the time they're being signed in some cases. [00:41:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah. When I heard rumblings that some of these record label offices that had recently started in Nigeria or elsewhere in Africa, that they were starting to question some of the future and the growth and things, I honestly wasn't that surprised because if you look at the way the record labels work in the US and at least currently they're working cause. [00:42:16] you have the Drake's and you have the Taylor's and the Adele's and Beyonces, and you've given them more favorable deals. But knowing that even if they more favorable deal, whatever share you get of that is still gonna make up for more than everything else. And that's gonna help your strategy in so many other ways. [00:42:33] Versus you're starting from scratch in a landscape where it's already harder to like develop someone from the ground up. And you're starting that without the Burna Boy without DeVito or without them, and now you're trying to find that person and you're trying to, you know, still do the investment. It's tough to get there because it took these folks so many years to get to that point. [00:42:55] So if you didn't start like a 10 year time horizon and you're have a bit of that, you know, more of a standard, okay, what has this person done for me lately? Do we keep this artist? Do we drop them? It isn't going to work in the same way. And we saw some of those same challenges, not even to this level happen. [00:43:12] 20 years ago when there were so many artists from Jamaica that were starting to blow up when reggae and reggae Fusion was really starting to be the wave when Sean Paul was doing his thing, and we didn't even get to that point where they were even trying to start the record label. There were issues with visas Yeah. Yes, and all.  [00:43:31] Denisha Kuhlor: It doesn't just transfer. That's, you know, that's such a great point. Like I think in some ways people expect the success in the continent to like transfer almost smoothly when in reality a new type of work is just beginning. And that's the type of work that, you know, when you think about the office, the big office is looking for, right? [00:43:51] Because that's gonna produce quantitatively what they wanna see. and so in a way it can feel discouraging because you're like, wow, I have this artist, they've done this, this, and this. They're getting booked for shows here. Now we're going to Europe and we can't do a 500 person venue, but we just did a 5,001. [00:44:06] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's gonna be fascinating to see how this develops, but before we close things out though, let's say five years from now, 2028, where's Burna Boy in his career, right? At that point, what is he doing? [00:44:18] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I really, you know, I call it like a bit of the Jay-Z effect, but in some ways I see that for him, one clearly has an ear, not only for like developing talent, but also emerging talent, from, you know, a feature to Bnxn who assigned onto his label, but ended up not staying ended to, ask to leave the label, which I think is very interesting. [00:44:40] So I kind of wanna see if he focuses or hones more on also like developing talent innately his sister's also the creative director for his brand. I think too, we'll also will also see him play a role where he does a lot of fun things around fan engagements. he talked about in an interview that he's performed at so many venues and gotten to travel the world. And so he wants to take a really exciting approach in like performing on a train or kind of doing all these other like, cool fan experiences. So hopefully will he'll start to experiment with that as well. [00:45:20] Denisha Kuhlor: And it'd be interesting, but I think he might have the potential to be a really high touring artist for a long time. We see some artists that are just like, they can go on tour. It feels whenever they want, regardless of whether they have new music or not. And to some extent, I think that he just might be an artist that can command that. [00:45:42] and this has, you know, everybody's talking about, everybody's talking about catalogs nowadays, but as you think about how digitally Native Africa is, how young the population is. I'll be curious to see if he gets an offer he can't refuse. on the catalog side, there's more and more, places invest in content within Africa. [00:46:02] Denisha Kuhlor: It's only gonna increase, syncs the power of nostalgia as well. . Well, my hunch would be that he wouldn't sell, it wouldn't surprise me if we also saw him really structuring his business or his brand in, a way, that commands a high catalog price as well.  [00:46:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah, when you're one of the biggest ones in this like wave and you're really reaching the height that others haven't reached before, you do have a bit of that advantage, right? Are able to this rise in a number of ways. So it's gonna be fascinating. I'm excited feel like at a minimum, what headline in Glastonbury feels like an inevitable thing, just given with things. [00:46:39] So yeah, I am eager to see how this all plays out. And who knows, maybe he'll be at Coachella again, and maybe he'll have the headline spot and at that point there's nowhere else to, you know, complain. Maybe we'll just have Burna Boy hyphen the African Giant and that'll be what's on the poster, [00:46:56] Denisha Kuhlor: Yes, I can literally see like just the African giants. I think that would be just such a moment, in the funniest way, like very reminiscent of Jay-Z, Jay-Z at Glastonbury, no. Yeah, it would be cool to see that all come full circle. [00:47:10] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Well, Denisha, this was awesome. Thanks again for making the time and making this happen [00:47:16] Denisha Kuhlor: Thanks so much for having me. [00:47:17] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. [00:47:38] Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 02 Mar 2023 09:00:00 -0000 The Rise of Burna Boy (with Denisha Kuhlor) full Dan Runcie Burna Boy will be the first African artist to headline a UK stadium show when he performs at the 60,000-capacity London Stadium this summer. It’s the latest sign of Burna’s starpower and Afrobeats exploding popularity. The Nigeria-born artist is one of the genre’s biggest stars. Burna has reached this level because of consistency (six albums in nine years), savvy performing strategies, and a headliner mentality.  To break down Burna’s rise, I talked to Denisha Kuhlor, founder of Stan, which helps artists identify and grow their fanbase. Stan has used Burna show giveaways to develop insight into his wide-spreading fanbase. Here’s what we discussed: [3:05] What sets Burna Boy apart from other African artists [6:26] Burna’s show at London Stadium [7:26] The Burna fanbase [7:52] Streaming era impact on African music [11:56] Returning to Coachella after 2019 drama [17:05] How Ye incidentally helped Burna break out [19:16] How fame is perceived in Africa vs US [20:45] Fans of Africa’s “Big Three” artists battling each other [21:50] Burna’s “contested” Madison Square Garden sellout [24:11] Possible missteps in Burna’s career [27:54] Projecting Burna’s future shows [32:20] His best career move [38:03] Building record label infrastructure in Africa [44:06] Five-year prediction for Burna’s career Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor This episode was brought to you by trac. Learn more about how artists can bring web2 and web3 together for their fans at trac.co Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: I think it was interesting, him being so vocal in the approach he took, I think a lot of, Ayra Starr did a documentary for Spotify and she's quite big, especially within West Africa. And she talked about touring in the United States for the first time, and she basically said that she viewed it as an opportunity to make someone her fan, right? [00:00:19] Like, just by someone attending her show, her goal was to convert them into a fan. Whereas, Burna definitely takes the approach of, "you should either already be one or recognize my fan base for what they are." I think in his case he's lucky cuz he's been able to back it up. especially when you look at Coachella to now. [00:00:40] but definitely a, an approach that's consistent with his brand.  [00:01:11] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is a case study style breakdown on the one and only Burna Boy. I was joined by someone who is a near expert when it comes to the world of Burna Boy, and that is Denisha Kuhlor, who has been on the pod several times, and she is the founder of Stan, where not only does she focus on how artists can engage their fan bases, she's actually been involved with ticket giveaways for Burna Boy's upcoming stadium show in London. So she has insights into what these fans are like, what are some of their preferences? And we talked about all that and more. We broke down, Burna Boy's rise. What are some of the key things to his success? What are some of the challenges? Talked about some of the other moments that he's had that we wanted to talk about. [00:01:57] Where does that stand with him? What is his standout moment and where things could really go for him from here on out? Really great conversation. If you enjoyed the one we did on Cash Money a couple weeks ago. This is something similar, but about an artist who is really having this moment right now, and we broke it all down. [00:02:12] Here's our breakdown on Burna Boy. [00:02:14] Dan Runcie: All right, today we have our case study style breakdown on the one and only Burna Boy, and who else is gonna join me then? Someone that understands him and the work that he's done in and out over the past few years. Denisha Kuhlor Welcome back to the pod. [00:02:29] Denisha Kuhlor: Thanks so much for having me.  [00:02:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I wanted to talk to you because you wrote that piece in Trapital several months ago, talking about how artists who have relied on music festivals, maybe there's something that they may regret down the road in terms of actually getting in there and building the true fanboy fan base. And you used Burna Boy as an example of someone that went through this and obviously he's blowing up. He's had a huge year and we've now seen so much growth, especially in the past few years of just how so many African artists have been able to rise and grow platform. [00:03:05] But Burna Boy has clearly been able to hit levels that many others haven't. What do you think it is that has set him apart? [00:03:13] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think one, just Bruno boy is very compelling, as an artist. I've seen him perform, last year twice. his Madison Square Garden show. Then I got to see him at, Afrochella now, Afro Future, in Ghana. And one, he is a live band, as crazy as that sounds, I feel like that's rare and rarer these days. as consumers, it kind of feels like we've gotten used to maybe a DJ or kind of that accompany accompaniment. So the live band aspect is a huge one for me, and I think he's very compelling on stage and has great, charisma. and then lastly, I kind of feel like he was everywhere this year. [00:03:53] You couldn't really. Escape him, whether it was last, last, as a hit or, him touring so much of the United States. I feel like if you didn't know about Burna boy, maybe a year or two ago, last year was definitely just a true breakout year for him on the global stage.  [00:04:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that makes sense. I think there was a couple other things that stuck out to me too. So he has been able to position himself as a leading man. I am the person that's headlining. I'm not just gonna be the person opening for the artist. gonna be the person that is doing the guest first. [00:04:27] And I do think that's some of the other artists who rose up from Africa, they have done a bit more of the, "okay, let me jump on the Drake verse. And then that becomes Drake's or things like that." although I know that Burna has done several guest appearances and feature shares, it hasn't been in that same way. [00:04:45] And I think he's still just been so focused on himself in that way. And of course it could take a little bit longer to develop, but it's almost like how in Hollywood you may see someone that is always positioning themselves as supporting acting roles. If that's where you're taken to blow up, it could be hard for the industry to see you. [00:05:04] The lead actor, but if you're willing to do the lead actor roles for the smaller things and you get the right thing, then you become seen as the lead actor on the big I feel like that's  [00:05:14] been his experience.  [00:05:15] Denisha Kuhlor: I'm totally aligned with you when, just based off you talking about that makes me think about some of his features on the continent. And he's largely broken those artists, right? You look at Bnxn,formerly known as Buju, right?  [00:05:27] And the Lenu remix who was signed a Burna. I first heard about Amapiano,because Burna Boy got on the Spoon, No No remix, and one of the biggest breakout stars of the continent, Asake, the Zumba remix, this year. So I agree, I think he's positioned his features as more as like, let me lend a helping hand and let me get your distribution and your visibility. But if I was. In African artists or emerging artists from the continent vying for a feature in some ways, I'd probably wanna Burna feature over potentially a big artist from the west.  [00:06:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think a lot of that is with his. And his persona, and we can get into that in a minute, but I that played into a lot of this. And as you said, he's been every run the past year and we're setting stage for an even bigger 2023 where he will do his stadium tour at London Stadium, the first African artist, a headline and do that. [00:06:26] What does that mean for his career? [00:06:28] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. One, I think it's just huge and a testament to how far music from the continent has grown. I think, you know, you look at the story or how people paint the narrative of how music from the continent has grown. And so often it's kind of like, oh, there's a population of people here or there's little, you know, subsets of people that are interested in the music. [00:06:51] Whereas now, it's makes it very clear that this is world music, right? This is pop music in a lot of ways in that people have embraced this music in the same way you look at, Latin music, right? And people are singing whether they know Spanish or not. I think it's really a testament to the ability to do that. So it's very exciting.  [00:07:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think you've also had a front row seat to this as well, because with your work at Stan, you've been doing ticket giveaways and things like that to really tap into who the Burna Boy super fans are. [00:07:26] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so we've found two things working with Burna Boy fans or Burna Boy fan pages. Is that, or maybe even three. I find that one you have the fan that maybe, it reminds them of home. So typically a fan with roots or ties back to West Africa or Africa more broadly, who's now living abroad or first generation, but there's a sense of nostalgia or home as a result. [00:07:52] I think you also have fans that are like learning or being introduced to, Africa. Through his music, which has been really fascinating and really cool to see us talking to a fan, based in France, right? That like taught herself pidgin and like wants to visit Nigeria because she's such a big Burna boy fan. [00:08:11] and that's also really, really cool to see. And then third, I think you just have like hometown pride, right? Like you look at people in Lagos or even other African cities and people are just really, really proud of what he's been able to do. So it's interesting seeing all the subsets of fans together. [00:08:29] Denisha Kuhlor: But as someone who's attended his shows, I think it's exhilarating when you watch it all come together.  [00:08:36] Dan Runcie: And just for some context for the listeners, what does your giveaway entail and what does that process look like? [00:08:43] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So, we run live interactive trivia games that allow us to test a fan's knowledge and how much they actually know about the artists. So everything from lyrics to questions that fans would only know if they watch music videos to general information about Burna boy that you probably would only get if you read his interviews  [00:09:04] or you just deeply know about him. Every time we're crafting these games, I actually learn so much more about, these artists that we work with. And so I say that to say, I'm continuously surprised not only by his fans' knowledge of his music and his lyrics, but also how intentional they've been about truly learning about him and what they feel he represents. And so I feel like he's done a really good job of being consistent in that narrative. [00:09:32] Dan Runcie: I think too, one of the other things that really works in his favor is that in the rise of the streaming era, we're seeing the rise of local repertoire and local language artists being able to rise and not just have to rely on Western cultures. And I think that the music industry has shifted a bit, or at least from a mentality perspective, and you could see this on the Spotify daily charts. [00:09:56] You can see there's so many places where there were so many artists who were used to being able to have that global footprint of essentially exporting their music elsewhere than making so much money they're now seeing less and they're seeing less because a lot of these artists are being able to do it themselves, and it's not just. [00:10:16] Burna Boy's being able to do this in West Africa, but he's being able to do this in France, which has, you know, a large West African population and some of these other corners of the world that do, and I'm curious to see how that will continue to develop, because you know how the diaspora and certain regions that. [00:10:34] You see more fans of West African artists than just West Africans in general, and how that will align with where someone like Burna Boy continues to tour and where some of the bigger concentrations of his fandom end up being. [00:10:49] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I think, you know, interestingly enough, like he also probably benefited from the rise of like macro things that maybe couldn't plan, but like one black panther, right? Black Panther, like reignited people's curiosity about Africa and maybe in a way in which, they hadn't thought of before you look at things like the year of return in Ghana in 2019 and this bridge or this desire to have a bridge between black Americans in the United States and you know, people in Ghana. [00:11:18] And I think all those like, factors made people, got people excited and got excited in a way that his music just set the stage. If you came to Ghana in 2019, you were gonna hear br boy and people were gonna take it back, right?  [00:11:33] Denisha Kuhlor: Davido said it best. He said, you know, Afrobeats will succeed because in America, everybody has one African friendand whether you realize it or not, like, you are exposed in some way, and I think as people's proximity changed and curiosity about each other and where people are from grew, especially as it relates to Africa, he really benefited from that.  [00:11:56] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. That makes sense. And I think the other thing too, that I think about for him this year, he of course has the huge stadium show in London, but he's also coming back to Coachella and very famously back to Coachella after being quite upset in 2019 about the size of his name on that Coachella poster. And this day, this year, this time around, his name is much bigger. Still not a but I'd be curious know what you think, like how he must have felt about that process. Was there some level of buy-in? Because I could see at his level him thinking that, okay, I'm a superstar. I should be a headliner. But if they're now putting him on that second line right under the headliner, then how that may affect him. Obviously it's still great placement, but. Yeah. [00:12:45] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know, it's interesting and I remember when that happened and in some ways I think it probably helped his brand and really showed like it was a testament to the type of artist that he desired to be. I do, you know, think it's interesting because you do see within Africa stars that are huge, right? [00:13:04] And maybe they're numbers, quantitatively don't show up on the Spotify charts, they're on YouTube or they're on other platforms. there's still quite of downloading, that exists within just Africa as a whole. So sometimes we don't necessarily see an artist as set the way we would, maybe with an artist in the States or with a huge listenership in the States, from a charts perspective or immediately. [00:13:27] But I will say is I think it was interesting, him being so vocal in the approach he took, I think a lot of, Ayra Starr did a documentary for Spotify and she's quite big, especially within West Africa. And she talked about touring in the United States for the first time, and she basically said that she viewed it as an opportunity to make someone her fan, right? [00:13:48] Like, just by someone attending her show, her goal was to convert them into a fan. Whereas, Burna definitely takes the approach of, "you should either already be one or recognize my fan base for what they are." I think in his case he's lucky cuz he's been able to back it up. especially when you look at Coachella to now. [00:14:09] but definitely a, an approach that's consistent with his brand.  [00:14:14] Dan Runcie: Right? Because I think that part of it too is there's clearly a western skew for a festival like Coachella. I know that when Burna had complained back in 2019 about where he was, people had shown where Kendrick Lamar was, I think it was 2012, and how small his name was compared to him being a headliner several years later. [00:14:35] Denisha Kuhlor: The difference there though is that Kendrick Lamar is from Compton, which is which is driving distance to Indio, California where Coachella is, versus Burna boy may have numbers, may have the base, it's is that base, if they're not a strong contention of them in the in Southern California, are they going to be able to get there? [00:14:58] And I do think that the fact that he is, you know, second because this year you're headliners, unless someone pulls out, you never know what happens. But, right now your headliners are Frank Ocean, Bad Bunny, and Black Pink. So he's, you know, just under there. So you never know what could happen. Things shift all the time, but I assume if based on his placement, it must be a pretty decent size bag as well. [00:15:21] At least I know for the headliners, the last I checked a few years ago, they were getting paid 4 million per weekend, which totaled 8 million total. so that's what I would assume the payday would be for, Bunny, Black Pink and Frank Ocean, but then that next row down probably isn't too far below that. [00:15:40] I mean, I'm sure it is less money, but I don't know how much less. [00:15:43] Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And when you look at like negotiating from just a hard tickets perspective, in terms of what he's been able to drive from last year alone, he definitely had some strong leverage from a negotiating standpoint. [00:15:57] Dan Runcie: definitely. And with someone like him too. I know that we've talked a lot about artists and how they're able to develop true fandom, and I think true fandom is the people that are showing up at your. Concerts and they know the words of everything and not just singing the TikTok part that goes viral that we've seen from whether it's many artists that have experienced that, that have had TikTok hits that have blown up. [00:16:24] How do you think that impacts someone like Burna boy, I don't necessarily feel like he is making music, quote unquote for TikTok. I know a lot of the stuff that blows up their artists don't have any control over, but how do you think that skews, like how do you think that soc or short form video has played a factor, if at all, in his career and his rise? [00:16:44] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think a few ways, one, touring, right? I think people want to go to a Bea boy show even if they haven't seen him before or only know a few songs. So I think it's definitely been really, really helpful there. I don't know how many, people know, like the story behind Ye, one of his breakout hits, but like SEO just like really helped him. [00:17:05] So he had the song, Ye. It was already uploaded to streaming platforms, and then Kanye came out with his album. . And so a lot of folks search for Kanye's album, but his, was still like ranking pretty high on Spotify. They actually released a video that that day or around that time thinking, thinking Kanye, for, for the album name. [00:17:25] So I do think in, this is what's so interesting. He's very true to himself in the sense that he's definitely not an artist that like hopped on those trends, right? Like TikTok is not really potentially his thing. he's not gonna be doing any TikTok dances, so he's still been authentic to himself. While I think galvanizing his fans or letting his fans know, he appreciates their effort and I believe his fans look at it more so it as like, let's spread this message, regardless of his participation. [00:17:58] That's something I always get from his fans specifically, it seems like you have different artists, with fan bases. Like the Barbz need Nicki to participate, they want Nicki to participate, right?  [00:18:09] Whereas Burna fans, I feel like they do their own thing. They know the temperament of the artists and what he likes to do, and so they don't, they're not really like rushing for him to, adopt maybe some of those technique.  [00:18:23] Dan Runcie: And that's an interesting breakdown. Do you think that any of that is compared to where the artist is from or just the nature of their fans? Thinking specifically about the Barbz versus Burna Boy's fans. [00:18:37] Denisha Kuhlor: Mm. that is interesting. You know, I can't say with certainty, but what I will say and as I've spent more time in Ghana is that there's a level of familiarity. I find, past, maybe, I don't know what it is, but past like, experiences that maybe invoke a certain socioeconomic status. There's a level of familiarity, that you'll find these artists like I've definitely maybe seen, or you can be in spaces with so many of these artists just casually like going to a restaurant or, you know, like you living your. [00:19:16] And, I do think that invokes a certain sense of familiarity in which fame is perceived differently here. like in Ghana specifically, you see a lot of, a lot of artists here with very little to know security. just like really doing regular things. it's very different, whereas the fame is more sensationalized it feels, in the states, like you can be in the club with Burna, he's walking up and there's not gonna be the, oh my god, Burna, like that kind of thing. It's very different in that way. So maybe that wouldn't really add much, at least to his core or his home base fans, because that familiarity is there.  [00:19:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it feels a bit the closest thing that I would. You have in the US is Atlanta, where you would have the artists that are at the mall or you see them walking around and stuff. And it isn't necessarily the same level of frenzy, although that may be a little bit different now, but in like, you know, the nineties, two thousands, you would see them a bit more. [00:20:17] And I think there was a bit more of that vibe that felt a bit more natural like, you know, you go to Magic City or something like that and you would see someone. I think the other thing that is distinctive too with the US fans versus maybe some of the fans, others, is that online, I think you do see a bit more of that hive behavior, specifically from a group like the Barbz, where I think there's almost a falsification to them. [00:20:45] Denisha Kuhlor: And in that, I mean the reactiveness to the other side and what they're saying, and there's almost the galvanization of that and how the barbs can galvanize in Cardi B take down, or a snide comment of someone trying to come at Nicki in a way, but they that bit of catalyst to feel galvanized.You know what's interesting? I do find it that I do think that Burna fans and maybe the big three, so for folks listening, within Africa, the big threes typically referred to as DeVito, Burna boy and Whiz Kids. So they all have their, various fan bases. And the only time I really feel like that's activated. [00:21:27] Seeing how their artists are doing in the West and comparing. Right. So, you know, obviously with Burna winning the Grammy, but and I talked to you about this, like his, Madison Square garden numbers were quite contested. Like if you actually look at the Twitter account that shares,ticketing information. That one was like retweeted so many times because it was the fan bases going back and forth. [00:21:50] Like he actually did sell out MSG versus didn't he? So it's very interesting because while, you know, in some ways like his hyper localized approach in terms of the themes of his music is what's propelling him on the world stage. I do think these fan bases are very curious to see just how well they're doing and they use that as the point of comparison, as it relates to other African artist.  [00:22:13] Dan Runcie: Wait, what was the contention that the fans had about the MSG sellout? [00:22:18] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so there were a few things. One, they felt like there weren't enough seats available.  [00:22:23] Dan Runcie: Oh, you did tell me about this.  [00:22:25] Denisha Kuhlor: True . Yeah. Like it was a true sellout. And, at first folks didn't believe that he had sold it out. So, it's also interesting with fan bases because you're now seeing like novice or people, fans knew to wanting to understand how the industry works and also wanting to dig into what that means. But that, I think gave the confirmation that he did sell it out,and led to other fan base battles over the discrepancies.  [00:22:56] Dan Runcie: Right? Yeah. Cuz you and I talked about this. It isn't like if someone just books like a music hall or a House of blues, purpose of that is for music venue. So the capacity's listed as the capacity, but for some of these sports venues, it could be very different because artists have such different set pieces and stage and production and you don't wanna perform with your back to people like yyou're gonna be different places. So  [00:23:18] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly.  [00:23:18] Dan Runcie: You can't compare the sellout for a Knick's playoff game capacity and be like, oh, well that had more people than Burna Boy's selling out MSG. It's like, it  [00:23:27] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. And that was a lot of, the conversation, which I thought was so interesting. But I also think it it came about because of how he branded it, right? One Night in Space was the name of that. It wasn't part of a tour, anything, it was just one night in space. And so there were gonna be a lot of eyes on that event, regardless. [00:23:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and you know, people always try to poke holes when they see something that surprises them that they probably wouldn't have, you know, seen otherwise. [00:23:57] So we've talked a lot about the things that Burna Boy's done well, how he's got to this point. Do you think there's any missed opportunities so far at this point in his career or anything that you've looked back on and be like, huh, I wonder if he did that differently, or even things that he may be doing after? [00:24:11] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so, I obviously have a company around fan engagement, so some of the fan engagement has been interesting. I will say, one thing that's been, very pleasant for me has been some of his intentionality around connecting deeper with his fans this last album he did host quite a few meet and greets, and had people bring their albums or you know, even bring their kids and like that kind of thing. [00:24:37] I felt like he was really like seeing and touching people, which is something that in the past it didn't really seem like maybe he was open to or necessarily had the appetite for. So that was nice to see. It sounds like, or at least for me, the professionalism when it came to One Night in Space was also great.  [00:24:56] the show started on time, ended on time. Can't necessarily say the same for some of his shows within Africa. And that can be due to a host of reasons, but it definitely does lead to, maybe folks will get different experiences. And that's what's so tricky in some ways about artists, in supporting artists. [00:25:16] He's also headlined Afro Nation, Afro Nation, Puerto Rico. They've pulled out the day before and he was replaced with Rick Ross, which upset a lot of fans. So, I say all that to say, I think. It's a Burna Boy production or Burna Boy affair. it seems like everything is phenomenal. and just A- plus end to end when there are other stakeholders. [00:25:41] The process doesn't always seem as smooth, at least for the end user experience, for the fan. so I, I think it sometimes becomes a question of like are we going to continue to pursue some of these opportunities with other stakeholders, whether that's festivals or, just some of these other events, right? [00:26:00] Denisha Kuhlor: Or are we going to take the bulk of our production or the bulk of our events or how a fan can interact with me from a live performance standpoint in-house, and control the end-to-end experience that way. [00:26:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I do think that this strength weakness here lines up with the things that we're saying before, right? If he's someone that wants to be the lead, you wanna be the focus. You're gonna put more energy into the Burna Boy Productions and you may take a slight at things that are not that right. And I think it's unfortunate if some of that distribution skews between the things you do outside of Africa are the things you do in the Western world that do buttoned up, but then when you're back home it has less energy, less focus because yeah, your day one fans of your stans are gonna feel like, okay, well now that he's stadium status, what do we get? [00:26:52] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. and in fairness, you know, some of that is probably, you know, thanks to the regulation, like there is no coming on at 2:00 AM at MSG. Like they will set everyone home. You'll not be allowed to perform. they will charge you a fine. so there's also I think just some of the like, again, the standards upheld within these ecosystems. [00:27:12] But it breeds a dynamic that it's unfortunate and I think is happening just overall where consumers are privy to this at this experience. As a fan that goes to see a show, I don't really wanna hear the promoter and technical issues and like production. I paid my money, I took my money to see this artist. [00:27:35] So, now the fact that fans are being so exposed in a lot of ways to all the elements behind these things, not only are making them more sophisticated consumers, in deciding whether to patronize you again, but it's taking away some of the magic that was entertainment and like show business.  [00:27:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I do think that for someone like him specifically, it is important to work on how could this product be the best that it can be? Whether you are doing it at home, whether you're doing it elsewhere, and obviously knowing where you're doing it elsewhere, you're involved with other productions, there's things that are gonna be outta your control. [00:28:13] And I know it's asking someone that is naturally more focused on putting more into the things they have more control into to still bring that same energy elsewhere. But hopefully, I'm sure that he wants to be eventually a headliner at a Coachella or a Glastonbury. I'm to do other stadium shows as well. That'll actually go to the next thing that I'll ask you, I think that if that's the goal, then some of that energy has to con continue there. So, two questions here, this is a two-parter. So the first one, obviously London is the first. Well, I don't wanna say the first, but at least it's the one of the biggest stages that he has had himself. [00:28:51] I think, you know, we'll see how many tickets end up being sold. I assume it'll probably be at least like 60,000 or so, just given the size of that place. But where do you think, if you could project where the next stadium shows would be based on his fan base, based on what you know, where do you think those would I would say Texas , somewhere in, Texas. I mean, Dallas and Houston have some of the biggest African populations, within the United States. And so when I think about that, not only do they have African, you know, or they're first gen or immigrant populations, but a lot of people have also been exposed just by proximity. [00:29:31] So I think, yeah, I think it would be either Houston or Dallas. Definitely somewhere in the States, I do think he could do somewhere else in Europe, but if looking at the data really does concentrate, at least in London and with the disposable income, I think that would allow for a show like that, for a show like that to be successful. Another thing about Burna that's interesting is, he's been touring. So a lot of these fans, you hadn't seen him two years ago. You definitely have had your opportunity to see him now. even when I think about, by the time I saw him at Madison Square Garden, I could have seen him at Afropunk right in New York as well. [00:30:14] He did summer or he was supposed to do Summer Jam. So there were like multiple opportunities, even just within New York to see him. So I wonder though, before he does that. There will be a bit of a, break, or at least new music so that the consumer feels like they're seeing something.  [00:30:31] Dan Runcie: What about Paris? [00:30:32] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So Paris is a really interesting market. He has a ton of fans in Paris and I talk to them quite often. I don't know though. I, I don't know if a stadium show can work there just yet. And part of the reason is because I do think that the market rewards in some ways, , those who try. [00:30:53] And while he's done a ton of podcasts, a ton of interviews, a ton of things, I can't say how much he's actually interacted with, you know, some of the French press andsome of the opportunities there. He did do something really cool, recently or, yeah, not too recently. where he did a like deep cuts performance for 300 fans and he just announced it on Twitter and folks got to go. [00:31:19] So I think he can work up to it just quantitatively. It might take longer than other markets. [00:31:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah, Paris was one that had in mind I think, those things you mentioned make sense. New York was another one too. Just given that MSG show and you have the MetLife stadium, I feel like like that could eventually happen. [00:31:39] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. I think New York makes a lot of sense. It's pretty close to, obviously, you know, DC and Virginia, which also have big African populations. New Yorkers have seen him and know, someone who attended the MSG show. I really felt like there was like a sense of pride, like folks were really excited to be there, and to see this. And it definitely makes you feel like in events. And one that you could partake in multiple times for sure. [00:32:07] Dan Runcie: Right. And two, with this, we talked about his missed opportunities, but what do you think about the best opportunity or the best move that he has made so far in his career? [00:32:20] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think one consistency. He's been pretty consistent about releasing new music, whether it came to the album that he released during COVID, as well as his latest album now. There's definitely a strategy, I think, of always being focused or always looking ahead or being able to see what's next. [00:32:40] And so he's been able to use consistency through his own music, but also relevancy by jumping onto trends that are new, whether it's or not new. I feel like the Ima piano folks are gonna come at me for that. But,whether it's Amapiano, right? or Asake who really brought a new sound for folks. [00:32:59] So I think he's been able to do that really well. I think it was really intentional of his team. We've gotten to see, and not to compare Burna Boy to Ice Spice, but as consumers, I think so often, we see folks, do really well as a result of a breakout hit and have these expectations of them that don't necessarily correlate. [00:33:23] And it's actually been really great to watch an artist like Ice Spice or even a Little Nas X kind of come into their own when it comes to their performance and stage play overall. Whereas with him, I think he really got to build that methodically and, and over time, get comfortable on stage, see what works, what doesn't work, figure out the kinks of working with the band. [00:33:44] And so he's really, really been able to perfect and invest in his live show, which we're seeing dividends on now, while also maintaining just the consistency of new music and relevancy, which is quite d  [00:33:57] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think the Ice Spice is interesting because I was talking to someone about this a couple days ago and she had just put out her project, and I think it may be sold around like 15,000 units. And that of course sparked some discussion. And the thing is, it's hard to even frame something like that as a negative because six months ago, most of you didn't even know who this was, if we're  [00:34:23] So we have the nature of the internet being able to help someone skyrocket into a different level. Almost overnight, and then just realizing that her team, everyone else has to catch up. It's a very different situation, like where Burna Boy is showing you that, yeah, it takes time to get to this point. [00:34:42] I mean, if he starts really releasing music, you know, early 2010s. By 2017, still doing small venues in New York. And then it really until, you know, a couple years later where you're being able to hit that. If you even get to that point, it's so hard. And I do think that live performances in the honest you command is one of the few things that can't quote unquote blow up overnight and it's, if anything is the more humbling thing that we see. I think streams can be somewhat humbling to some extent, as you've seen, but even that can be misleading. So it does at least ring true, and I think for me, I'd spoke about this earlier, but the thing about his career that I think is the best move for him was just continuing to position himself as the lead and not necessarily, you know, following the latest trend just to hop on it. Although I think he was smart about things, but not just trying to attach himself. I think he still had the brand there and it took longer than some may have, you know, wanted, or maybe even he saw himself, especially, I can only imagine, you know, it's 2015, you're doing this for a few years, things still bubbling. [00:35:53] So I do think that worked to his advantage cuz now it's really only a handful of artists globally that can say they're in that position. And then really his whole continent, you know, of the big three is at least the one that has the most exposure and platform in base right now. [00:36:09] Denisha Kuhlor: What did you think of? I feel his choice to embrace Artis from the west like his last two or three really, his last maybe three albums, you see like a really conscientious approach, whether he's had everyone from YG to Keilani, had Diddy executive produce an album, and that felt really intentional to reach, listenership or an audience from the westlike you said, it's probably tricky like if that went wrong, it could have really went wrong but in his case it seemed to go right, but I'm curious what you thought that.  [00:36:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think part of the reason why it worked is like, I feel like he picked artists that felt somewhat aligned with like what he was doing too like I, at least from what I read, I think the YG track may have potentially would've involved Nipsey, but you know, Nipsey had passed, so like that didn't work. [00:36:58] It's not as if he was just hopping on, you know, who is the hot single that like needs someone or like, you know, the Drake or whoever else. And not that I think with Drake is an issue, but because obviously is done and then Bad Bunny's continue to grow. But I feel like because he's like picking certain artists and maybe not every pick I necessarily, you know, thought was like his best music, but there seemed to be a ality with people that like lined up with him where it's like, okay, I've listened to enough why G'S music over the years? [00:37:28] I could see why someone like Burna Boy would want to do music with him, right? So I feel like for me, that piece of it did line up and I know that if you're trying to grow there, there's some inevitable push of who can I align myself with that isn't just trying to do the generic pop thing. Like I don't think I would ever hear him beyond a Maroon Five song, which I do feel kind of becomes like a bit of a rite of passage for a lot of, Western hop artists. [00:37:57] But I'd be very surprised if I ever saw Burna Boy. [00:38:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. No, that makes sense. That makes sense.  [00:38:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah. the other thing that I think this conversation taps into is just the broader growth and the broader expansion of record labels and infrastructure in Africa from what the music industry to do and how Burna Boy's been able to help. In many ways, not just, I don't wanna say necessarily lead that because I think he's did a lot of this without the infrastructure. [00:38:26] If anything, the infrastructure has kind of started to come as a result of what he's done. But I've also heard a few rumblings from different folks that some of the investments of certain record labels, some of the majors having offices there, there's been questions about how they're seeing what's viable, what makes sense now because some of the artists that blew up, they don't have those artists on those labels, so now they're trying to find the next person and they're realizing that really hard to do that. [00:38:55] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know what's interesting, and I thought a lot about this is I feel like most artists on the continent don't necessarily need help on the continent. So much to our point of thinking about like Coachella, that was so surprising to Burna Boy because he was a huge star within Africa. [00:39:11] and when you look at the labels, he's engaged, for like a more global expansion. The thing I think he's been very clear of and his mother and the rest of his team is that like they've got Africa covered. And so I do think that could be part of the reason why maybe some of these labels are struggling because in a way it probably makes sense or the hunches to put more money or investment into what's already working, which is within Africa. When in reality I think it, it forces you to start to iterate and experiment on what's gonna resonate in terms of an artist, fans, an artist who has fans abroad, or them starting to build their broad audience. [00:39:53] And while an African audience it probably validates a lot of things, right? Maybe stage, presence, charisma, ability to connect, that the music is global or can reach people like it, that change or that shift. now being in the states or being in Europe is also quite different as well. [00:40:11] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think it forces labels to take a true A and R approach, whether it comes to everything from media training, Interacting, there's cultural differences. And so, I think it's going to lead way to maybe a new type of executive. it's something I thought a lot about music programs like the Music Business Academy,in Africa. [00:40:33] That's done really, really amazing work. I continue to be really, really impressed with the folks at Maven. And what their talent is doing, I think, for the African music ecosystem. But, with that being said, I think that the ecosystem is still getting to the point. where it's maturing, but also maturing in a way where folks can capitalize not only on the talent from the ecosystem, within Africa, but there being true connections, going both ways, because that's ultimately where the label will be able to recognize their power. [00:41:05] But for an artist that is already successful in some ways already getting Booked for shows. You look at, you know, where Tua Savage was by the time she got signed, or a DeVito by the time, he got signed abroad, they're already huge stars, which in some ways is different than what labels are used to signing in the States. [00:41:27] They, you know, would either find an artist and before invest the development in them or find an artist who's had maybe success digitally, but are working with them, on some of their more physical initiatives. So, I think it's interesting, but I also think it's a bit of a, different framework or thinking that some of these labels need to do in terms of the true maturity of the talent at the time they're being signed in some cases. [00:41:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah. When I heard rumblings that some of these record label offices that had recently started in Nigeria or elsewhere in Africa, that they were starting to question some of the future and the growth and things, I honestly wasn't that surprised because if you look at the way the record labels work in the US and at least currently they're working cause. [00:42:16] you have the Drake's and you have the Taylor's and the Adele's and Beyonces, and you've given them more favorable deals. But knowing that even if they more favorable deal, whatever share you get of that is still gonna make up for more than everything else. And that's gonna help your strategy in so many other ways. [00:42:33] Versus you're starting from scratch in a landscape where it's already harder to like develop someone from the ground up. And you're starting that without the Burna Boy without DeVito or without them, and now you're trying to find that person and you're trying to, you know, still do the investment. It's tough to get there because it took these folks so many years to get to that point. [00:42:55] So if you didn't start like a 10 year time horizon and you're have a bit of that, you know, more of a standard, okay, what has this person done for me lately? Do we keep this artist? Do we drop them? It isn't going to work in the same way. And we saw some of those same challenges, not even to this level happen. [00:43:12] 20 years ago when there were so many artists from Jamaica that were starting to blow up when reggae and reggae Fusion was really starting to be the wave when Sean Paul was doing his thing, and we didn't even get to that point where they were even trying to start the record label. There were issues with visas Yeah. Yes, and all.  [00:43:31] Denisha Kuhlor: It doesn't just transfer. That's, you know, that's such a great point. Like I think in some ways people expect the success in the continent to like transfer almost smoothly when in reality a new type of work is just beginning. And that's the type of work that, you know, when you think about the office, the big office is looking for, right? [00:43:51] Because that's gonna produce quantitatively what they wanna see. and so in a way it can feel discouraging because you're like, wow, I have this artist, they've done this, this, and this. They're getting booked for shows here. Now we're going to Europe and we can't do a 500 person venue, but we just did a 5,001. [00:44:06] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's gonna be fascinating to see how this develops, but before we close things out though, let's say five years from now, 2028, where's Burna Boy in his career, right? At that point, what is he doing? [00:44:18] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I really, you know, I call it like a bit of the Jay-Z effect, but in some ways I see that for him, one clearly has an ear, not only for like developing talent, but also emerging talent, from, you know, a feature to Bnxn who assigned onto his label, but ended up not staying ended to, ask to leave the label, which I think is very interesting. [00:44:40] So I kind of wanna see if he focuses or hones more on also like developing talent innately his sister's also the creative director for his brand. I think too, we'll also will also see him play a role where he does a lot of fun things around fan engagements. he talked about in an interview that he's performed at so many venues and gotten to travel the world. And so he wants to take a really exciting approach in like performing on a train or kind of doing all these other like, cool fan experiences. So hopefully will he'll start to experiment with that as well. [00:45:20] Denisha Kuhlor: And it'd be interesting, but I think he might have the potential to be a really high touring artist for a long time. We see some artists that are just like, they can go on tour. It feels whenever they want, regardless of whether they have new music or not. And to some extent, I think that he just might be an artist that can command that. [00:45:42] and this has, you know, everybody's talking about, everybody's talking about catalogs nowadays, but as you think about how digitally Native Africa is, how young the population is. I'll be curious to see if he gets an offer he can't refuse. on the catalog side, there's more and more, places invest in content within Africa. [00:46:02] Denisha Kuhlor: It's only gonna increase, syncs the power of nostalgia as well. . Well, my hunch would be that he wouldn't sell, it wouldn't surprise me if we also saw him really structuring his business or his brand in, a way, that commands a high catalog price as well.  [00:46:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah, when you're one of the biggest ones in this like wave and you're really reaching the height that others haven't reached before, you do have a bit of that advantage, right? Are able to this rise in a number of ways. So it's gonna be fascinating. I'm excited feel like at a minimum, what headline in Glastonbury feels like an inevitable thing, just given with things. [00:46:39] So yeah, I am eager to see how this all plays out. And who knows, maybe he'll be at Coachella again, and maybe he'll have the headline spot and at that point there's nowhere else to, you know, complain. Maybe we'll just have Burna Boy hyphen the African Giant and that'll be what's on the poster, [00:46:56] Denisha Kuhlor: Yes, I can literally see like just the African giants. I think that would be just such a moment, in the funniest way, like very reminiscent of Jay-Z, Jay-Z at Glastonbury, no. Yeah, it would be cool to see that all come full circle. [00:47:10] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Well, Denisha, this was awesome. Thanks again for making the time and making this happen [00:47:16] Denisha Kuhlor: Thanks so much for having me. [00:47:17] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. [00:47:38] Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Burna Boy will be the first African artist to headline a UK stadium show when he performs at the 60,000-capacity London Stadium this summer. It’s the latest sign of Burna’s starpower and Afrobeats exploding popularity.


The Nigeria-born artist is one of the genre’s biggest stars. Burna has reached this level because of consistency (six albums in nine years), savvy performing strategies, and a headliner mentality. 


To break down Burna’s rise, I talked to Denisha Kuhlor, founder of Stan, which helps artists identify and grow their fanbase. Stan has used Burna show giveaways to develop insight into his wide-spreading fanbase. Here’s what we discussed:


[3:05] What sets Burna Boy apart from other African artists

[6:26] Burna’s show at London Stadium

[7:26] The Burna fanbase

[7:52] Streaming era impact on African music

[11:56] Returning to Coachella after 2019 drama

[17:05] How Ye incidentally helped Burna break out

[19:16] How fame is perceived in Africa vs US

[20:45] Fans of Africa’s “Big Three” artists battling each other

[21:50] Burna’s “contested” Madison Square Garden sellout

[24:11] Possible missteps in Burna’s career

[27:54] Projecting Burna’s future shows

[32:20] His best career move

[38:03] Building record label infrastructure in Africa

[44:06] Five-year prediction for Burna’s career



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor


This episode was brought to you by trac. Learn more about how artists can bring web2 and web3 together for their fans at trac.co


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital


Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.


TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: I think it was interesting, him being so vocal in the approach he took, I think a lot of, Ayra Starr did a documentary for Spotify and she's quite big, especially within West Africa. And she talked about touring in the United States for the first time, and she basically said that she viewed it as an opportunity to make someone her fan, right?

[00:00:19] Like, just by someone attending her show, her goal was to convert them into a fan. Whereas, Burna definitely takes the approach of, "you should either already be one or recognize my fan base for what they are." I think in his case he's lucky cuz he's been able to back it up. especially when you look at Coachella to now.

[00:00:40] but definitely a, an approach that's consistent with his brand. 

[00:01:11] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is a case study style breakdown on the one and only Burna Boy. I was joined by someone who is a near expert when it comes to the world of Burna Boy, and that is Denisha Kuhlor, who has been on the pod several times, and she is the founder of Stan, where not only does she focus on how artists can engage their fan bases, she's actually been involved with ticket giveaways for Burna Boy's upcoming stadium show in London. So she has insights into what these fans are like, what are some of their preferences? And we talked about all that and more. We broke down, Burna Boy's rise. What are some of the key things to his success? What are some of the challenges? Talked about some of the other moments that he's had that we wanted to talk about.

[00:01:57] Where does that stand with him? What is his standout moment and where things could really go for him from here on out? Really great conversation. If you enjoyed the one we did on Cash Money a couple weeks ago. This is something similar, but about an artist who is really having this moment right now, and we broke it all down.

[00:02:12] Here's our breakdown on Burna Boy.

[00:02:14] Dan Runcie: All right, today we have our case study style breakdown on the one and only Burna Boy, and who else is gonna join me then? Someone that understands him and the work that he's done in and out over the past few years. Denisha Kuhlor Welcome back to the pod.

[00:02:29] Denisha Kuhlor: Thanks so much for having me. 

[00:02:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I wanted to talk to you because you wrote that piece in Trapital several months ago, talking about how artists who have relied on music festivals, maybe there's something that they may regret down the road in terms of actually getting in there and building the true fanboy fan base. And you used Burna Boy as an example of someone that went through this and obviously he's blowing up. He's had a huge year and we've now seen so much growth, especially in the past few years of just how so many African artists have been able to rise and grow platform.

[00:03:05] But Burna Boy has clearly been able to hit levels that many others haven't. What do you think it is that has set him apart?

[00:03:13] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think one, just Bruno boy is very compelling, as an artist. I've seen him perform, last year twice. his Madison Square Garden show. Then I got to see him at, Afrochella now, Afro Future, in Ghana. And one, he is a live band, as crazy as that sounds, I feel like that's rare and rarer these days. as consumers, it kind of feels like we've gotten used to maybe a DJ or kind of that accompany accompaniment. So the live band aspect is a huge one for me, and I think he's very compelling on stage and has great, charisma. and then lastly, I kind of feel like he was everywhere this year.

[00:03:53] You couldn't really. Escape him, whether it was last, last, as a hit or, him touring so much of the United States. I feel like if you didn't know about Burna boy, maybe a year or two ago, last year was definitely just a true breakout year for him on the global stage. 

[00:04:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that makes sense. I think there was a couple other things that stuck out to me too. So he has been able to position himself as a leading man. I am the person that's headlining. I'm not just gonna be the person opening for the artist. gonna be the person that is doing the guest first.

[00:04:27] And I do think that's some of the other artists who rose up from Africa, they have done a bit more of the, "okay, let me jump on the Drake verse. And then that becomes Drake's or things like that." although I know that Burna has done several guest appearances and feature shares, it hasn't been in that same way.

[00:04:45] And I think he's still just been so focused on himself in that way. And of course it could take a little bit longer to develop, but it's almost like how in Hollywood you may see someone that is always positioning themselves as supporting acting roles. If that's where you're taken to blow up, it could be hard for the industry to see you.

[00:05:04] The lead actor, but if you're willing to do the lead actor roles for the smaller things and you get the right thing, then you become seen as the lead actor on the big I feel like that's 

[00:05:14] been his experience. 

[00:05:15] Denisha Kuhlor: I'm totally aligned with you when, just based off you talking about that makes me think about some of his features on the continent. And he's largely broken those artists, right? You look at Bnxn,formerly known as Buju, right? 

[00:05:27] And the Lenu remix who was signed a Burna. I first heard about Amapiano,because Burna Boy got on the Spoon, No No remix, and one of the biggest breakout stars of the continent, Asake, the Zumba remix, this year. So I agree, I think he's positioned his features as more as like, let me lend a helping hand and let me get your distribution and your visibility. But if I was. In African artists or emerging artists from the continent vying for a feature in some ways, I'd probably wanna Burna feature over potentially a big artist from the west. 

[00:06:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think a lot of that is with his. And his persona, and we can get into that in a minute, but I that played into a lot of this. And as you said, he's been every run the past year and we're setting stage for an even bigger 2023 where he will do his stadium tour at London Stadium, the first African artist, a headline and do that.

[00:06:26] What does that mean for his career?

[00:06:28] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. One, I think it's just huge and a testament to how far music from the continent has grown. I think, you know, you look at the story or how people paint the narrative of how music from the continent has grown. And so often it's kind of like, oh, there's a population of people here or there's little, you know, subsets of people that are interested in the music.

[00:06:51] Whereas now, it's makes it very clear that this is world music, right? This is pop music in a lot of ways in that people have embraced this music in the same way you look at, Latin music, right? And people are singing whether they know Spanish or not. I think it's really a testament to the ability to do that. So it's very exciting. 

[00:07:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think you've also had a front row seat to this as well, because with your work at Stan, you've been doing ticket giveaways and things like that to really tap into who the Burna Boy super fans are.

[00:07:26] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so we've found two things working with Burna Boy fans or Burna Boy fan pages. Is that, or maybe even three. I find that one you have the fan that maybe, it reminds them of home. So typically a fan with roots or ties back to West Africa or Africa more broadly, who's now living abroad or first generation, but there's a sense of nostalgia or home as a result.

[00:07:52] I think you also have fans that are like learning or being introduced to, Africa. Through his music, which has been really fascinating and really cool to see us talking to a fan, based in France, right? That like taught herself pidgin and like wants to visit Nigeria because she's such a big Burna boy fan.

[00:08:11] and that's also really, really cool to see. And then third, I think you just have like hometown pride, right? Like you look at people in Lagos or even other African cities and people are just really, really proud of what he's been able to do. So it's interesting seeing all the subsets of fans together.

[00:08:29] Denisha Kuhlor: But as someone who's attended his shows, I think it's exhilarating when you watch it all come together. 

[00:08:36] Dan Runcie: And just for some context for the listeners, what does your giveaway entail and what does that process look like?

[00:08:43] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So, we run live interactive trivia games that allow us to test a fan's knowledge and how much they actually know about the artists. So everything from lyrics to questions that fans would only know if they watch music videos to general information about Burna boy that you probably would only get if you read his interviews 

[00:09:04] or you just deeply know about him. Every time we're crafting these games, I actually learn so much more about, these artists that we work with. And so I say that to say, I'm continuously surprised not only by his fans' knowledge of his music and his lyrics, but also how intentional they've been about truly learning about him and what they feel he represents. And so I feel like he's done a really good job of being consistent in that narrative.

[00:09:32] Dan Runcie: I think too, one of the other things that really works in his favor is that in the rise of the streaming era, we're seeing the rise of local repertoire and local language artists being able to rise and not just have to rely on Western cultures. And I think that the music industry has shifted a bit, or at least from a mentality perspective, and you could see this on the Spotify daily charts.

[00:09:56] You can see there's so many places where there were so many artists who were used to being able to have that global footprint of essentially exporting their music elsewhere than making so much money they're now seeing less and they're seeing less because a lot of these artists are being able to do it themselves, and it's not just.

[00:10:16] Burna Boy's being able to do this in West Africa, but he's being able to do this in France, which has, you know, a large West African population and some of these other corners of the world that do, and I'm curious to see how that will continue to develop, because you know how the diaspora and certain regions that.

[00:10:34] You see more fans of West African artists than just West Africans in general, and how that will align with where someone like Burna Boy continues to tour and where some of the bigger concentrations of his fandom end up being.

[00:10:49] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I think, you know, interestingly enough, like he also probably benefited from the rise of like macro things that maybe couldn't plan, but like one black panther, right? Black Panther, like reignited people's curiosity about Africa and maybe in a way in which, they hadn't thought of before you look at things like the year of return in Ghana in 2019 and this bridge or this desire to have a bridge between black Americans in the United States and you know, people in Ghana.

[00:11:18] And I think all those like, factors made people, got people excited and got excited in a way that his music just set the stage. If you came to Ghana in 2019, you were gonna hear br boy and people were gonna take it back, right? 

[00:11:33] Denisha Kuhlor: Davido said it best. He said, you know, Afrobeats will succeed because in America, everybody has one African friendand whether you realize it or not, like, you are exposed in some way, and I think as people's proximity changed and curiosity about each other and where people are from grew, especially as it relates to Africa, he really benefited from that. 

[00:11:56] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. That makes sense. And I think the other thing too, that I think about for him this year, he of course has the huge stadium show in London, but he's also coming back to Coachella and very famously back to Coachella after being quite upset in 2019 about the size of his name on that Coachella poster. And this day, this year, this time around, his name is much bigger. Still not a but I'd be curious know what you think, like how he must have felt about that process. Was there some level of buy-in? Because I could see at his level him thinking that, okay, I'm a superstar. I should be a headliner. But if they're now putting him on that second line right under the headliner, then how that may affect him. Obviously it's still great placement, but. Yeah.

[00:12:45] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know, it's interesting and I remember when that happened and in some ways I think it probably helped his brand and really showed like it was a testament to the type of artist that he desired to be. I do, you know, think it's interesting because you do see within Africa stars that are huge, right?

[00:13:04] And maybe they're numbers, quantitatively don't show up on the Spotify charts, they're on YouTube or they're on other platforms. there's still quite of downloading, that exists within just Africa as a whole. So sometimes we don't necessarily see an artist as set the way we would, maybe with an artist in the States or with a huge listenership in the States, from a charts perspective or immediately.

[00:13:27] But I will say is I think it was interesting, him being so vocal in the approach he took, I think a lot of, Ayra Starr did a documentary for Spotify and she's quite big, especially within West Africa. And she talked about touring in the United States for the first time, and she basically said that she viewed it as an opportunity to make someone her fan, right?

[00:13:48] Like, just by someone attending her show, her goal was to convert them into a fan. Whereas, Burna definitely takes the approach of, "you should either already be one or recognize my fan base for what they are." I think in his case he's lucky cuz he's been able to back it up. especially when you look at Coachella to now.

[00:14:09] but definitely a, an approach that's consistent with his brand. 

[00:14:14] Dan Runcie: Right? Because I think that part of it too is there's clearly a western skew for a festival like Coachella. I know that when Burna had complained back in 2019 about where he was, people had shown where Kendrick Lamar was, I think it was 2012, and how small his name was compared to him being a headliner several years later.

[00:14:35] Denisha Kuhlor: The difference there though is that Kendrick Lamar is from Compton, which is which is driving distance to Indio, California where Coachella is, versus Burna boy may have numbers, may have the base, it's is that base, if they're not a strong contention of them in the in Southern California, are they going to be able to get there?

[00:14:58] And I do think that the fact that he is, you know, second because this year you're headliners, unless someone pulls out, you never know what happens. But, right now your headliners are Frank Ocean, Bad Bunny, and Black Pink. So he's, you know, just under there. So you never know what could happen. Things shift all the time, but I assume if based on his placement, it must be a pretty decent size bag as well.

[00:15:21] At least I know for the headliners, the last I checked a few years ago, they were getting paid 4 million per weekend, which totaled 8 million total. so that's what I would assume the payday would be for, Bunny, Black Pink and Frank Ocean, but then that next row down probably isn't too far below that.

[00:15:40] I mean, I'm sure it is less money, but I don't know how much less.

[00:15:43] Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And when you look at like negotiating from just a hard tickets perspective, in terms of what he's been able to drive from last year alone, he definitely had some strong leverage from a negotiating standpoint.

[00:15:57] Dan Runcie: definitely. And with someone like him too. I know that we've talked a lot about artists and how they're able to develop true fandom, and I think true fandom is the people that are showing up at your. Concerts and they know the words of everything and not just singing the TikTok part that goes viral that we've seen from whether it's many artists that have experienced that, that have had TikTok hits that have blown up.

[00:16:24] How do you think that impacts someone like Burna boy, I don't necessarily feel like he is making music, quote unquote for TikTok. I know a lot of the stuff that blows up their artists don't have any control over, but how do you think that skews, like how do you think that soc or short form video has played a factor, if at all, in his career and his rise?

[00:16:44] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think a few ways, one, touring, right? I think people want to go to a Bea boy show even if they haven't seen him before or only know a few songs. So I think it's definitely been really, really helpful there. I don't know how many, people know, like the story behind Ye, one of his breakout hits, but like SEO just like really helped him.

[00:17:05] So he had the song, Ye. It was already uploaded to streaming platforms, and then Kanye came out with his album. . And so a lot of folks search for Kanye's album, but his, was still like ranking pretty high on Spotify. They actually released a video that that day or around that time thinking, thinking Kanye, for, for the album name.

[00:17:25] So I do think in, this is what's so interesting. He's very true to himself in the sense that he's definitely not an artist that like hopped on those trends, right? Like TikTok is not really potentially his thing. he's not gonna be doing any TikTok dances, so he's still been authentic to himself. While I think galvanizing his fans or letting his fans know, he appreciates their effort and I believe his fans look at it more so it as like, let's spread this message, regardless of his participation.

[00:17:58] That's something I always get from his fans specifically, it seems like you have different artists, with fan bases. Like the Barbz need Nicki to participate, they want Nicki to participate, right? 

[00:18:09] Whereas Burna fans, I feel like they do their own thing. They know the temperament of the artists and what he likes to do, and so they don't, they're not really like rushing for him to, adopt maybe some of those technique. 

[00:18:23] Dan Runcie: And that's an interesting breakdown. Do you think that any of that is compared to where the artist is from or just the nature of their fans? Thinking specifically about the Barbz versus Burna Boy's fans.

[00:18:37] Denisha Kuhlor: Mm. that is interesting. You know, I can't say with certainty, but what I will say and as I've spent more time in Ghana is that there's a level of familiarity. I find, past, maybe, I don't know what it is, but past like, experiences that maybe invoke a certain socioeconomic status. There's a level of familiarity, that you'll find these artists like I've definitely maybe seen, or you can be in spaces with so many of these artists just casually like going to a restaurant or, you know, like you living your.

[00:19:16] And, I do think that invokes a certain sense of familiarity in which fame is perceived differently here. like in Ghana specifically, you see a lot of, a lot of artists here with very little to know security. just like really doing regular things. it's very different, whereas the fame is more sensationalized it feels, in the states, like you can be in the club with Burna, he's walking up and there's not gonna be the, oh my god, Burna, like that kind of thing. It's very different in that way. So maybe that wouldn't really add much, at least to his core or his home base fans, because that familiarity is there. 

[00:19:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it feels a bit the closest thing that I would. You have in the US is Atlanta, where you would have the artists that are at the mall or you see them walking around and stuff. And it isn't necessarily the same level of frenzy, although that may be a little bit different now, but in like, you know, the nineties, two thousands, you would see them a bit more.

[00:20:17] And I think there was a bit more of that vibe that felt a bit more natural like, you know, you go to Magic City or something like that and you would see someone. I think the other thing that is distinctive too with the US fans versus maybe some of the fans, others, is that online, I think you do see a bit more of that hive behavior, specifically from a group like the Barbz, where I think there's almost a falsification to them.

[00:20:45] Denisha Kuhlor: And in that, I mean the reactiveness to the other side and what they're saying, and there's almost the galvanization of that and how the barbs can galvanize in Cardi B take down, or a snide comment of someone trying to come at Nicki in a way, but they that bit of catalyst to feel galvanized.You know what's interesting? I do find it that I do think that Burna fans and maybe the big three, so for folks listening, within Africa, the big threes typically referred to as DeVito, Burna boy and Whiz Kids. So they all have their, various fan bases. And the only time I really feel like that's activated.

[00:21:27] Seeing how their artists are doing in the West and comparing. Right. So, you know, obviously with Burna winning the Grammy, but and I talked to you about this, like his, Madison Square garden numbers were quite contested. Like if you actually look at the Twitter account that shares,ticketing information. That one was like retweeted so many times because it was the fan bases going back and forth.

[00:21:50] Like he actually did sell out MSG versus didn't he? So it's very interesting because while, you know, in some ways like his hyper localized approach in terms of the themes of his music is what's propelling him on the world stage. I do think these fan bases are very curious to see just how well they're doing and they use that as the point of comparison, as it relates to other African artist. 

[00:22:13] Dan Runcie: Wait, what was the contention that the fans had about the MSG sellout?

[00:22:18] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so there were a few things. One, they felt like there weren't enough seats available. 

[00:22:23] Dan Runcie: Oh, you did tell me about this. 

[00:22:25] Denisha Kuhlor: True . Yeah. Like it was a true sellout. And, at first folks didn't believe that he had sold it out. So, it's also interesting with fan bases because you're now seeing like novice or people, fans knew to wanting to understand how the industry works and also wanting to dig into what that means. But that, I think gave the confirmation that he did sell it out,and led to other fan base battles over the discrepancies. 

[00:22:56] Dan Runcie: Right? Yeah. Cuz you and I talked about this. It isn't like if someone just books like a music hall or a House of blues, purpose of that is for music venue. So the capacity's listed as the capacity, but for some of these sports venues, it could be very different because artists have such different set pieces and stage and production and you don't wanna perform with your back to people like yyou're gonna be different places. So 

[00:23:18] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. 

[00:23:18] Dan Runcie: You can't compare the sellout for a Knick's playoff game capacity and be like, oh, well that had more people than Burna Boy's selling out MSG. It's like, it 

[00:23:27] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. And that was a lot of, the conversation, which I thought was so interesting. But I also think it it came about because of how he branded it, right? One Night in Space was the name of that. It wasn't part of a tour, anything, it was just one night in space. And so there were gonna be a lot of eyes on that event, regardless.

[00:23:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and you know, people always try to poke holes when they see something that surprises them that they probably wouldn't have, you know, seen otherwise.

[00:23:57] So we've talked a lot about the things that Burna Boy's done well, how he's got to this point. Do you think there's any missed opportunities so far at this point in his career or anything that you've looked back on and be like, huh, I wonder if he did that differently, or even things that he may be doing after?

[00:24:11] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so, I obviously have a company around fan engagement, so some of the fan engagement has been interesting. I will say, one thing that's been, very pleasant for me has been some of his intentionality around connecting deeper with his fans this last album he did host quite a few meet and greets, and had people bring their albums or you know, even bring their kids and like that kind of thing.

[00:24:37] I felt like he was really like seeing and touching people, which is something that in the past it didn't really seem like maybe he was open to or necessarily had the appetite for. So that was nice to see. It sounds like, or at least for me, the professionalism when it came to One Night in Space was also great. 

[00:24:56] the show started on time, ended on time. Can't necessarily say the same for some of his shows within Africa. And that can be due to a host of reasons, but it definitely does lead to, maybe folks will get different experiences. And that's what's so tricky in some ways about artists, in supporting artists.

[00:25:16] He's also headlined Afro Nation, Afro Nation, Puerto Rico. They've pulled out the day before and he was replaced with Rick Ross, which upset a lot of fans. So, I say all that to say, I think. It's a Burna Boy production or Burna Boy affair. it seems like everything is phenomenal. and just A- plus end to end when there are other stakeholders.

[00:25:41] The process doesn't always seem as smooth, at least for the end user experience, for the fan. so I, I think it sometimes becomes a question of like are we going to continue to pursue some of these opportunities with other stakeholders, whether that's festivals or, just some of these other events, right?

[00:26:00] Denisha Kuhlor: Or are we going to take the bulk of our production or the bulk of our events or how a fan can interact with me from a live performance standpoint in-house, and control the end-to-end experience that way.

[00:26:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I do think that this strength weakness here lines up with the things that we're saying before, right? If he's someone that wants to be the lead, you wanna be the focus. You're gonna put more energy into the Burna Boy Productions and you may take a slight at things that are not that right. And I think it's unfortunate if some of that distribution skews between the things you do outside of Africa are the things you do in the Western world that do buttoned up, but then when you're back home it has less energy, less focus because yeah, your day one fans of your stans are gonna feel like, okay, well now that he's stadium status, what do we get?

[00:26:52] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. and in fairness, you know, some of that is probably, you know, thanks to the regulation, like there is no coming on at 2:00 AM at MSG. Like they will set everyone home. You'll not be allowed to perform. they will charge you a fine. so there's also I think just some of the like, again, the standards upheld within these ecosystems.

[00:27:12] But it breeds a dynamic that it's unfortunate and I think is happening just overall where consumers are privy to this at this experience. As a fan that goes to see a show, I don't really wanna hear the promoter and technical issues and like production. I paid my money, I took my money to see this artist.

[00:27:35] So, now the fact that fans are being so exposed in a lot of ways to all the elements behind these things, not only are making them more sophisticated consumers, in deciding whether to patronize you again, but it's taking away some of the magic that was entertainment and like show business. 

[00:27:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I do think that for someone like him specifically, it is important to work on how could this product be the best that it can be? Whether you are doing it at home, whether you're doing it elsewhere, and obviously knowing where you're doing it elsewhere, you're involved with other productions, there's things that are gonna be outta your control.

[00:28:13] And I know it's asking someone that is naturally more focused on putting more into the things they have more control into to still bring that same energy elsewhere. But hopefully, I'm sure that he wants to be eventually a headliner at a Coachella or a Glastonbury. I'm to do other stadium shows as well. That'll actually go to the next thing that I'll ask you, I think that if that's the goal, then some of that energy has to con continue there. So, two questions here, this is a two-parter. So the first one, obviously London is the first. Well, I don't wanna say the first, but at least it's the one of the biggest stages that he has had himself.

[00:28:51] I think, you know, we'll see how many tickets end up being sold. I assume it'll probably be at least like 60,000 or so, just given the size of that place. But where do you think, if you could project where the next stadium shows would be based on his fan base, based on what you know, where do you think those would I would say Texas , somewhere in, Texas. I mean, Dallas and Houston have some of the biggest African populations, within the United States. And so when I think about that, not only do they have African, you know, or they're first gen or immigrant populations, but a lot of people have also been exposed just by proximity.

[00:29:31] So I think, yeah, I think it would be either Houston or Dallas. Definitely somewhere in the States, I do think he could do somewhere else in Europe, but if looking at the data really does concentrate, at least in London and with the disposable income, I think that would allow for a show like that, for a show like that to be successful. Another thing about Burna that's interesting is, he's been touring. So a lot of these fans, you hadn't seen him two years ago. You definitely have had your opportunity to see him now. even when I think about, by the time I saw him at Madison Square Garden, I could have seen him at Afropunk right in New York as well.

[00:30:14] He did summer or he was supposed to do Summer Jam. So there were like multiple opportunities, even just within New York to see him. So I wonder though, before he does that. There will be a bit of a, break, or at least new music so that the consumer feels like they're seeing something. 

[00:30:31] Dan Runcie: What about Paris?

[00:30:32] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So Paris is a really interesting market. He has a ton of fans in Paris and I talk to them quite often. I don't know though. I, I don't know if a stadium show can work there just yet. And part of the reason is because I do think that the market rewards in some ways, , those who try.

[00:30:53] And while he's done a ton of podcasts, a ton of interviews, a ton of things, I can't say how much he's actually interacted with, you know, some of the French press andsome of the opportunities there. He did do something really cool, recently or, yeah, not too recently. where he did a like deep cuts performance for 300 fans and he just announced it on Twitter and folks got to go.

[00:31:19] So I think he can work up to it just quantitatively. It might take longer than other markets.

[00:31:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah, Paris was one that had in mind I think, those things you mentioned make sense. New York was another one too. Just given that MSG show and you have the MetLife stadium, I feel like like that could eventually happen.

[00:31:39] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. I think New York makes a lot of sense. It's pretty close to, obviously, you know, DC and Virginia, which also have big African populations. New Yorkers have seen him and know, someone who attended the MSG show. I really felt like there was like a sense of pride, like folks were really excited to be there, and to see this. And it definitely makes you feel like in events. And one that you could partake in multiple times for sure.

[00:32:07] Dan Runcie: Right. And two, with this, we talked about his missed opportunities, but what do you think about the best opportunity or the best move that he has made so far in his career?

[00:32:20] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think one consistency. He's been pretty consistent about releasing new music, whether it came to the album that he released during COVID, as well as his latest album now. There's definitely a strategy, I think, of always being focused or always looking ahead or being able to see what's next.

[00:32:40] And so he's been able to use consistency through his own music, but also relevancy by jumping onto trends that are new, whether it's or not new. I feel like the Ima piano folks are gonna come at me for that. But,whether it's Amapiano, right? or Asake who really brought a new sound for folks.

[00:32:59] So I think he's been able to do that really well. I think it was really intentional of his team. We've gotten to see, and not to compare Burna Boy to Ice Spice, but as consumers, I think so often, we see folks, do really well as a result of a breakout hit and have these expectations of them that don't necessarily correlate.

[00:33:23] And it's actually been really great to watch an artist like Ice Spice or even a Little Nas X kind of come into their own when it comes to their performance and stage play overall. Whereas with him, I think he really got to build that methodically and, and over time, get comfortable on stage, see what works, what doesn't work, figure out the kinks of working with the band.

[00:33:44] And so he's really, really been able to perfect and invest in his live show, which we're seeing dividends on now, while also maintaining just the consistency of new music and relevancy, which is quite d 

[00:33:57] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think the Ice Spice is interesting because I was talking to someone about this a couple days ago and she had just put out her project, and I think it may be sold around like 15,000 units. And that of course sparked some discussion. And the thing is, it's hard to even frame something like that as a negative because six months ago, most of you didn't even know who this was, if we're 

[00:34:23] So we have the nature of the internet being able to help someone skyrocket into a different level. Almost overnight, and then just realizing that her team, everyone else has to catch up. It's a very different situation, like where Burna Boy is showing you that, yeah, it takes time to get to this point.

[00:34:42] I mean, if he starts really releasing music, you know, early 2010s. By 2017, still doing small venues in New York. And then it really until, you know, a couple years later where you're being able to hit that. If you even get to that point, it's so hard. And I do think that live performances in the honest you command is one of the few things that can't quote unquote blow up overnight and it's, if anything is the more humbling thing that we see. I think streams can be somewhat humbling to some extent, as you've seen, but even that can be misleading. So it does at least ring true, and I think for me, I'd spoke about this earlier, but the thing about his career that I think is the best move for him was just continuing to position himself as the lead and not necessarily, you know, following the latest trend just to hop on it. Although I think he was smart about things, but not just trying to attach himself. I think he still had the brand there and it took longer than some may have, you know, wanted, or maybe even he saw himself, especially, I can only imagine, you know, it's 2015, you're doing this for a few years, things still bubbling.

[00:35:53] So I do think that worked to his advantage cuz now it's really only a handful of artists globally that can say they're in that position. And then really his whole continent, you know, of the big three is at least the one that has the most exposure and platform in base right now.

[00:36:09] Denisha Kuhlor: What did you think of? I feel his choice to embrace Artis from the west like his last two or three really, his last maybe three albums, you see like a really conscientious approach, whether he's had everyone from YG to Keilani, had Diddy executive produce an album, and that felt really intentional to reach, listenership or an audience from the westlike you said, it's probably tricky like if that went wrong, it could have really went wrong but in his case it seemed to go right, but I'm curious what you thought that. 

[00:36:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think part of the reason why it worked is like, I feel like he picked artists that felt somewhat aligned with like what he was doing too like I, at least from what I read, I think the YG track may have potentially would've involved Nipsey, but you know, Nipsey had passed, so like that didn't work.

[00:36:58] It's not as if he was just hopping on, you know, who is the hot single that like needs someone or like, you know, the Drake or whoever else. And not that I think with Drake is an issue, but because obviously is done and then Bad Bunny's continue to grow. But I feel like because he's like picking certain artists and maybe not every pick I necessarily, you know, thought was like his best music, but there seemed to be a ality with people that like lined up with him where it's like, okay, I've listened to enough why G'S music over the years?

[00:37:28] I could see why someone like Burna Boy would want to do music with him, right? So I feel like for me, that piece of it did line up and I know that if you're trying to grow there, there's some inevitable push of who can I align myself with that isn't just trying to do the generic pop thing. Like I don't think I would ever hear him beyond a Maroon Five song, which I do feel kind of becomes like a bit of a rite of passage for a lot of, Western hop artists.

[00:37:57] But I'd be very surprised if I ever saw Burna Boy.

[00:38:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. 

[00:38:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah. the other thing that I think this conversation taps into is just the broader growth and the broader expansion of record labels and infrastructure in Africa from what the music industry to do and how Burna Boy's been able to help. In many ways, not just, I don't wanna say necessarily lead that because I think he's did a lot of this without the infrastructure.

[00:38:26] If anything, the infrastructure has kind of started to come as a result of what he's done. But I've also heard a few rumblings from different folks that some of the investments of certain record labels, some of the majors having offices there, there's been questions about how they're seeing what's viable, what makes sense now because some of the artists that blew up, they don't have those artists on those labels, so now they're trying to find the next person and they're realizing that really hard to do that.

[00:38:55] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know what's interesting, and I thought a lot about this is I feel like most artists on the continent don't necessarily need help on the continent. So much to our point of thinking about like Coachella, that was so surprising to Burna Boy because he was a huge star within Africa.

[00:39:11] and when you look at the labels, he's engaged, for like a more global expansion. The thing I think he's been very clear of and his mother and the rest of his team is that like they've got Africa covered. And so I do think that could be part of the reason why maybe some of these labels are struggling because in a way it probably makes sense or the hunches to put more money or investment into what's already working, which is within Africa. When in reality I think it, it forces you to start to iterate and experiment on what's gonna resonate in terms of an artist, fans, an artist who has fans abroad, or them starting to build their broad audience.

[00:39:53] And while an African audience it probably validates a lot of things, right? Maybe stage, presence, charisma, ability to connect, that the music is global or can reach people like it, that change or that shift. now being in the states or being in Europe is also quite different as well.

[00:40:11] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think it forces labels to take a true A and R approach, whether it comes to everything from media training, Interacting, there's cultural differences. And so, I think it's going to lead way to maybe a new type of executive. it's something I thought a lot about music programs like the Music Business Academy,in Africa.

[00:40:33] That's done really, really amazing work. I continue to be really, really impressed with the folks at Maven. And what their talent is doing, I think, for the African music ecosystem. But, with that being said, I think that the ecosystem is still getting to the point. where it's maturing, but also maturing in a way where folks can capitalize not only on the talent from the ecosystem, within Africa, but there being true connections, going both ways, because that's ultimately where the label will be able to recognize their power.

[00:41:05] But for an artist that is already successful in some ways already getting Booked for shows. You look at, you know, where Tua Savage was by the time she got signed, or a DeVito by the time, he got signed abroad, they're already huge stars, which in some ways is different than what labels are used to signing in the States.

[00:41:27] They, you know, would either find an artist and before invest the development in them or find an artist who's had maybe success digitally, but are working with them, on some of their more physical initiatives. So, I think it's interesting, but I also think it's a bit of a, different framework or thinking that some of these labels need to do in terms of the true maturity of the talent at the time they're being signed in some cases.

[00:41:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah. When I heard rumblings that some of these record label offices that had recently started in Nigeria or elsewhere in Africa, that they were starting to question some of the future and the growth and things, I honestly wasn't that surprised because if you look at the way the record labels work in the US and at least currently they're working cause.

[00:42:16] you have the Drake's and you have the Taylor's and the Adele's and Beyonces, and you've given them more favorable deals. But knowing that even if they more favorable deal, whatever share you get of that is still gonna make up for more than everything else. And that's gonna help your strategy in so many other ways.

[00:42:33] Versus you're starting from scratch in a landscape where it's already harder to like develop someone from the ground up. And you're starting that without the Burna Boy without DeVito or without them, and now you're trying to find that person and you're trying to, you know, still do the investment. It's tough to get there because it took these folks so many years to get to that point.

[00:42:55] So if you didn't start like a 10 year time horizon and you're have a bit of that, you know, more of a standard, okay, what has this person done for me lately? Do we keep this artist? Do we drop them? It isn't going to work in the same way. And we saw some of those same challenges, not even to this level happen.

[00:43:12] 20 years ago when there were so many artists from Jamaica that were starting to blow up when reggae and reggae Fusion was really starting to be the wave when Sean Paul was doing his thing, and we didn't even get to that point where they were even trying to start the record label. There were issues with visas Yeah. Yes, and all. 

[00:43:31] Denisha Kuhlor: It doesn't just transfer. That's, you know, that's such a great point. Like I think in some ways people expect the success in the continent to like transfer almost smoothly when in reality a new type of work is just beginning. And that's the type of work that, you know, when you think about the office, the big office is looking for, right?

[00:43:51] Because that's gonna produce quantitatively what they wanna see. and so in a way it can feel discouraging because you're like, wow, I have this artist, they've done this, this, and this. They're getting booked for shows here. Now we're going to Europe and we can't do a 500 person venue, but we just did a 5,001.

[00:44:06] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's gonna be fascinating to see how this develops, but before we close things out though, let's say five years from now, 2028, where's Burna Boy in his career, right? At that point, what is he doing?

[00:44:18] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I really, you know, I call it like a bit of the Jay-Z effect, but in some ways I see that for him, one clearly has an ear, not only for like developing talent, but also emerging talent, from, you know, a feature to Bnxn who assigned onto his label, but ended up not staying ended to, ask to leave the label, which I think is very interesting.

[00:44:40] So I kind of wanna see if he focuses or hones more on also like developing talent innately his sister's also the creative director for his brand. I think too, we'll also will also see him play a role where he does a lot of fun things around fan engagements. he talked about in an interview that he's performed at so many venues and gotten to travel the world. And so he wants to take a really exciting approach in like performing on a train or kind of doing all these other like, cool fan experiences. So hopefully will he'll start to experiment with that as well.

[00:45:20] Denisha Kuhlor: And it'd be interesting, but I think he might have the potential to be a really high touring artist for a long time. We see some artists that are just like, they can go on tour. It feels whenever they want, regardless of whether they have new music or not. And to some extent, I think that he just might be an artist that can command that.

[00:45:42] and this has, you know, everybody's talking about, everybody's talking about catalogs nowadays, but as you think about how digitally Native Africa is, how young the population is. I'll be curious to see if he gets an offer he can't refuse. on the catalog side, there's more and more, places invest in content within Africa.

[00:46:02] Denisha Kuhlor: It's only gonna increase, syncs the power of nostalgia as well. . Well, my hunch would be that he wouldn't sell, it wouldn't surprise me if we also saw him really structuring his business or his brand in, a way, that commands a high catalog price as well. 

[00:46:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah, when you're one of the biggest ones in this like wave and you're really reaching the height that others haven't reached before, you do have a bit of that advantage, right? Are able to this rise in a number of ways. So it's gonna be fascinating. I'm excited feel like at a minimum, what headline in Glastonbury feels like an inevitable thing, just given with things.

[00:46:39] So yeah, I am eager to see how this all plays out. And who knows, maybe he'll be at Coachella again, and maybe he'll have the headline spot and at that point there's nowhere else to, you know, complain. Maybe we'll just have Burna Boy hyphen the African Giant and that'll be what's on the poster,

[00:46:56] Denisha Kuhlor: Yes, I can literally see like just the African giants. I think that would be just such a moment, in the funniest way, like very reminiscent of Jay-Z, Jay-Z at Glastonbury, no. Yeah, it would be cool to see that all come full circle.

[00:47:10] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Well, Denisha, this was awesome. Thanks again for making the time and making this happen

[00:47:16] Denisha Kuhlor: Thanks so much for having me.

[00:47:17] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead.

[00:47:38] Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.



]]> 2875 no Where Web2 and Web3 Meet (with Cardin Campbell) https://www.trapital.com/podcast In music, web3 hype may have cooled over the last year but there are still builders in the space making moves, like trac’s founder, Cardin Campbell. Trac is one of our sponsors for Trapital, and it was great to have Cardin on to discuss how music tech startups see the big picture and are approaching this. trac is a music distribution service, but it wants to bridge web2 and web3 together in a way most distribution services aren’t. Cardin sees an opportunity to digitize how royalty payments are made without disrupting the Web2 experiences on Apple Music and Spotify. That can remain, while blockchain technology adds a layer to bring an artist’s superfans around for the journey. In this episode, we discussed web3 music — what was overhyped, what has lasting value, and where things go from here. Here’s what you can expect:  [2:57] Finding a wedge in web3 music  [5:17] What people get wrong about web3 and ownership [9:25] SEC challenges with NFT royalties   [12:04] Most music fans don’t want to invest in artists [15:31] Where web3 and web2 meet in music [19:13] Building trac’s platform  [21:37] Benefit of artists “windowing” music releases [25:59] How trac sets itself apart [32:15] Artists “moving on” after reaching success  [34:54] What’s most exciting in web3 right now [36:22] Biggest friction points to web3 [41:05] Projecting trac’s revenue mix between web2 and web3 [44:38] How to follow trac’s process Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Cardin Campbell, @iamcardin Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Cardin Campbell: Success means, you know, you as an artist can make a living doing your art, and whatever the national average is in terms of salary per year, we want every artist on track at that level to get to that level of freedom and beyond. [00:00:17] yeah, we're building for that success story. and then some that's like the bare minimum for us. But yeah, we hope to create, you know, the next superstar. Not create, but we hope to help support the next superstar by giving them the tools to make the business side and, you know, management side of their catalog super easy. [00:00:35] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more. Who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  [00:01:03] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is all about where Web two and Web three meet each other in the music industry. It has been a rollercoaster past couple of years in terms of NFTs Web three Crypto and how all of it makes sense for artists, musicians, record labels, and more to help make sense of where we are and where things are going. [00:01:21] I sat down with Cardin Campbell, who is the founder of Trac is on a mission to empower artists to reach their fans more closely than ever, whether that's by distributing their music directly to the digital streaming providers or through NFTs so that their most passionate fans can get early access and a small ownership stake in their music moving forward. [00:01:42] Trac is also one of sponsors, so it was great to be able to talk with them about their solutions more deeply and how they're serving artists. In this conversation. We also talked about some of the other challenges that happened with music distribution, such as when you have those superstar artists, how do you keep them on board? [00:02:02] We also talked about broader trends in web three, where things are going, what some companies are getting right, wrong, and more really great conversation. I like the way Cardin sees things. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Cardin Campbell. [00:02:17] Dan Runcie:  [00:02:17] All right. Today we got a full conversation on deck. We're gonna talk about where Web two, when Web three, meet each other with someone that is living and breathing this every day, Cardin Campbell, founder of Trac. Welcome. [00:02:29] Cardin Campbell: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Good to  [00:02:30] be here. [00:02:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. I feel like you and I have had a few conversations about this, and the industry's been in such a fascinating place right now. You look at the past year and a half with Web three, crypto NFTs. It's been a rollercoaster in terms of where the industry is, where people stand, where companies stand, and where they're focusing on. [00:02:51] How do you feel like we are right now? What's your macro take on where the industry is right now with regards to web three? [00:02:57] Cardin Campbell: I think the industry's in an interesting place. I think we're still trying to find that wedge of where web three or this concept of Web three, you know, aids music in any way. You know, I think a lot of people, are trying to think of it like this separate space and you know, this place where you can sell more of stuff and generate more revenue for the industry. [00:03:19] And I think that can happen, but I don't think it's going to happen in a way that we've been approaching it to date, you know, but yeah, I think we're still trying to find out which ultimately is where we currently are. [00:03:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think one of the challenges was that there were so many cool and nifty ideas that people had about what something could look like, but at the end of the day, you needed to have a real functional aspect that would add value in a way that you are either making something easier for the consumer or you are making it more unique in a way. [00:03:49] And I feel like a lot of the things that are being pushed, were more focused on, oh, here's this cool, almost wonky idea of what something could look like as opposed to, boom, here's a fundamental shift change into how things were and how things could be moving forward. [00:04:04] Cardin Campbell: Yeah.  [00:04:05] Yeah. It's really like, you know, the classic case of entrepreneurship and startup, right? It's like you try to find a problem to solve and then solve that problem, whereas with web three, there's so many cool things you could do. And people were just like building cool things and then trying to find a problem, you know, later. [00:04:24] Right. So I think that's why we're still trying to find our wedge in the whole space, but because it's just been a case of, "Oh, we can do this and do that and like, wouldn't this be nice?" You know, but not really centralizing, you know, the focus on problems to solve, right? And then solving them. [00:04:39] Yeah. [00:04:40] Dan Runcie: And as you look back on it yourself, as someone that's been following the industry to to a deep extent yourself, do you feel like there are parts where you yourself are like, huh, maybe I had overstated where I thought this was gonna go? Because I think that each of us probably bought into some of the height and potential to at least some extent. [00:04:57] Cardin Campbell: Yeah,  [00:04:57] so I still feel like we have, we've got it right to a degree, and I'll explain, right, so a lot of people approach Web three music in this like way of thinking of it like it's another medium, you know, for people to consume music, to buy it, like it's a collectible and I think that's the wrong approach. [00:05:17] That's just my personal feeling. I've always thought that, and probably will always think that until I'm convinced otherwise, right? Because you can't really treat it like a new medium. When Spotify and Apple, you know, has the fan experience, you know, being the best it's ever been, like I feel like discovery has been solved, do you know what I mean? Like the algorithms and all the things that they provide to help you discover new music and just have access to all the songs, right? There is the best it's ever been. So companies that's been approaching it where they're thinking, oh, web three, we can generate NFTs out of songs and sell them. [00:05:56] I don't know that that's it. like, I hope I'm wrong cause it feels like an opportunity, right? To generate more revenue for the industry but I don't think that that's it because we've seen iTunes come and go, right? they were selling a digital file that was the MP3 for a dollar and that was cool for its time. [00:06:12] But then we shipped to streaming, they bought beats and turned into Apple Music and, right? Like it shifted. So I don't think that that's it. And I think that's where a lot, you know, the focus has been, and I think that's where people are getting it wrong. Because it's not, another, you know, medium, so to speak. [00:06:29] Dan Runcie: That's a good point because I do think that part of the reason that streaming took off, and a lot of this was in conflict of what Steve Jobs himself thought. He of course, is one of the big proponents of iTunes, and I think for its time, iTunes especially, when did it launch 2003? I believe that was the answer at the time. [00:06:48] You could buy your favorite song for 99 cents or a $1.29, whatever it was at the time. But after a while, consumers really didn't wanna do that. And I feel like one of the reasons why Spotify worked, granted, I know that the company has had its own ups and downs over the years, but one of the reasons why I think Spotify works is because it met consumers where they were at. People wanted to have access that at the time mattered more than ownership. So some of these things that are going back more to ownership, like whether it's companies or models that you're referencing, it brings us back to that. And it's not that people don't wanna own things. [00:07:22] They clearly do. You see the boom of vinyls and other things. It's just not ownership in the way that we may have thought, or that some of these companies may have. [00:07:31] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. And when you think about it from an ownership standpoint, like you don't technically own the MP3 when you bought it from iTunes, and when you're selling a .wav file or an MP3 as an NFT, which is the same thing, you don't technically own it, you're own like access to it. Like [00:07:47] Dan Runcie: Your copy of it. [00:07:48] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. Your copy of it. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, I just don't think that's the right approach. Now, I think the mistake people are making in Web three in particular is trying to mirror what we've seen happen with PFP NFTs, right? Like they, you know, collect them and it has this, you know, extreme high value from the doodles, you know, crypto punks and bored apes and all that, they're trying to mirror that. But fine art or the representation of art as NFTs in web three is a different thing than collecting music, right? Like you can't collect the mp3 like you, I mean, I guess you can, like we did with CDs and vinyl, but I think that's dead. [00:08:30] and I think that's where we're trying to like force something to be what It's not, right? Music is valuable when millions of people listen to it and love it, whereas fine art, it's like a one of one thing and that's where the value comes from, you know, I think the more apples to apples comparison with music and fine art is the actual royalty now that's the product of music and then we have two of them. [00:08:53] So music is just way more nuanced and more dynamic than fine art is. And I think, you know, those companies that are approaching it from the, let's collect the mp3 or the .wav file or sell it as this thing, you know, to consume it like another medium. I think that's all wrong. And like I said, I hope I'm wrong because I support anybody in the space trying to build a better tomorrow for music creators and the artists right, to make more money. [00:09:18] but I just don't think that's necessary. I do think the royalty side is it, but the SEC makes it complicated. [00:09:25] Dan Runcie: Let's talk more about this because when I think of the whole one of one thing, of course the physical example, you think about that Wutang album, the Once Upon a Time in Shaolin, that was essentially a one of one, and I know that that's traded hands a few different times more recently as last year, but I guess if we're thinking about it from your lens, you're saying that that isn't necessarily the product since obviously it can be copied and replicated in the same way that you and I could have a replica of the Mona Lisa, in our house, the real value is the actual recording itself, so you feel like the royalty, or at least that piece is the piece to focus on. [00:10:02] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. That's where the value is. Like when we see all these companies buying catalog, you know, they're buying the royalties, right? Whether the publishing side or the masters, right? Like that's where the money is, that's where the value is, that's the asset, right? sure you can replicate that thing in the, you know, the Wutang example, and I think Nipsey Hussle mighta did something too at one point in time, selling his album for a thousand bucks. [00:10:25] But that to me is a, a marketing thing. That's like a part of an album rollout. And if you have the cache like Wutang had and Nipsey had, you can do those things, right? But when you think about doing this at scale. Where every artist can, you know, benefit and, embrace this new model or approach, that's when it starts to break down. [00:10:45] And that's when you know, it's like, that's not it, that's not the answer. [00:10:48] Dan Runcie: You mentioned SEC part of it before. And I think we've seen a few different challenges from some companies that have tried to do creative things where fans could either buy a NFT or that could get them some fractional ownership of the music moving forward. And that what that actually looks like. [00:11:05] There are companies such as SongVest and others that have gone through the securitization process. How do you view that aspect and how do you feel like that aspect of the ownership or what you may see on royalty exchange or one of those types of platforms.  [00:11:20] Cardin Campbell: So, I think of it, in two ways. So I love it because fractionalizing, the actual asset is a beautiful thing, right? the SEC though, I think, I could be wrong, but I think from what I've been hearing and reading, the SEC thinks of it as a security. The minute it's fractionalized and then you have to go through the whole regulatory process and it just kills the flexibility you can have, it kills the scalability you can have with it If it's on the blockchain and it doesn't have to go to this regulatory, you can like BS. So that's one side, on the other side, you know, we now have a different audience that we're like selling these things too, because, the casual fan is not the audience as much as we think it is. [00:12:04] Like there's a Venn diagram that exists, right? That says, yep, we have some fans that are investors, but truly who we're targeting our, we're talking about investors of music, people who value catalog and wants to own it. And yeah, that's just a different beast. [00:12:18] And that's why we haven't seen it like really take off. Like we would think, in my opinion, because we haven't like really targeted the fans just yet. And find something that they would value just as much as the consumption of the music, [00:12:32] Dan Runcie: So two questions for you on that. Let's start with the actual fans themselves and some of the misreading that I think people had on whether or not the average fan would wanna invest in or own a piece of a stake in the fan, the artist's music. Why do you think that there was an overstate or an over assumption of how much the fan would be interested in there? [00:12:56] Cuz that was a pretty popular point for sometime [00:12:59] Cardin Campbell: right.  [00:13:00] I don't know. I think, you know, it sounds cool. It sounds like, oh wow. Like if you know, we have billions of people in the world that love music. I think the last time I checked, I think six plus billion people listen to music every day. So when you think about like the total accessible market, you're like, oh shit, that's a huge market. [00:13:18] Cardin Campbell: And if we can fractionize this one asset and sell it to a bunch of people, And then they can sell it to amongst themselves. Your head explodes right at the the potential scale of this thing. but with the regulatory, you know, stuff and then the fact that fans aren't really investors, it's kind of like "womp womp", right? [00:13:36] It's like that's when you realize it's like not as sexy as it sounds, in theory, on paper. [00:13:41] Yeah, the analogy that I've always used with it is, I think if you look at the popularity of something like, Apple and the iPhone and all their products. So many people have the Apple phones themselves, but that doesn't mean that all those people necessarily have Apple stock in that way. There's a person that's gonna be the retail investor in Apple stock than the person that is still going to buy a MacBook, a iPhone, an iPad, and everything else that they have, AirPods, you name I think there was an overestimation there. And then I think additionally just with the psychology of how a fan thinks it interacts with music. I think sometimes this is part of the challenge with confusing things with sports because I think that people looked at the popularity of fantasy football and just gambling and how gambling has exploded. [00:14:28] The monetization in sports in general, and I know that several music executives have asked me like, what could this look like? And I know that there's startups that have tried to do more of the fantasy sports for music, but. It's a different fan base and it's a different type of experience and product. And what a lot of these fans are into, at least from if they wanna have something beyond just the $9.99 per month that they pay for Spotify, they don't wanna collect a vinyl, they wanna have some piece of merch, they wanna go to a concert. [00:14:58] They want things that don't necessarily always lead to actual like cash value that they could trade in, in the long term, but they want something that means something to them. [00:15:09] Yeah, they want something that shows how much of a fan they are of that particular band or artist. And yeah, like, you know, in a nutshell, fans aren't investors, and investors and fans aren't gamers. Like, in the fantasy football example, like three different customer base right there, three different audience, three different personas. T here's a Venn diagram, like I said, but by and large, they're three different people. [00:15:31] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And I think one of the other things too that you touched on earlier was just where web two and where web three meet each other because I think that a lot of the early web three excitement was around. People pointing out some of the challenges that exist for the digital streaming providers and the payouts that they give to artists, and seeing Web three as a solution to that to put more inherent value on music. [00:15:54] Cardin Campbell: And I think a lot of those things sound good. But I do think that the more actual reality, as you've said both here and even in past conversations you've had is where the two of these meet each other. And from your perspective, what do you think the best approach is, or some of the best things you've seen look like where you do see Web two and Web three meet each other in music to actually provide value for fans? [00:16:18] Right. So I guess let's define what Web three means by starting with Web one, right? So, the definition that I've used, you know, with people is web, one is read, web two is read, write, web three is read, write and own, right? And what I encourage people to do is not think of them as three separate spaces. [00:16:40] They're actually a stack, a capability stack, let's call it, right? That, you know, you had one capability in web one. We can read things like a magazine, which is why it's called a webpage, cuz it's like a page of a magazine we read, right? As you know, the error we're in now where you can post things on social and leave comments and write all kinds of things on the web. [00:17:02] and web three is read, write, own. I think it's just another capability that we now have, and I think stacking it in that way is where the value is. You still want to give people the experience and the, you know, the UX of web two, but the invisible, immutable experience that the blockchain also has and provides. [00:17:24] Cardin Campbell: So I think when you think about web three music, the way we're approaching it is, yeah, let's give them user experience in web two, but let's also write their royalties and their ownership on the blockchain. So it's immutable, it's saved forever. No one, can take it away from them, which solves a problem that exists in the industry today. Because a lot of the industry still on pen and paper, it's not very digitized just yet. So I think Web Three gives us an opportunity to digitize the music industry in ways that we've never been able to do it before beyond just a PDF or whatever, right? It's like, yes, these are real assets. We can put them on the blockchain and keep them there. [00:17:59] And I think, you know, if we think about it from that perspective, the blockchain and Web three music is more of a B2B play between the creators and the rights holders themselves. And it makes it really scalable to send, exchange and trade these royalties, in a space that is immutable and no one can change it. [00:18:19] No one can, take it away. Cause we've heard Snoop say, you know, man, the first couple of albums at death row, I wrote, what's the publishing check? I never saw a publishing. I wrote 70% of the Chronic and I wrote, that would never happen in this new era with the way we're approaching web three music, it's like, hey, let's publish your work and write itinto the blockchain. You own it, it's in your wallet. No one can take it away, Right? And if, we can streamline that and make that a standard, I think we would solve a lot of problems. and then once everybody has their stuff in their wallet. Yeah, there can be a space where we, in web two, give them the ability to trade it with each other, sell it amongst each other, sell it to a hypnosis or whomever. [00:19:04] But it's all immutable. that's my thoughts. [00:19:07] Dan Runcie: And then with that, where are you right now at Trac with making that a reality for artists? [00:19:13] Cardin Campbell: So, it's a reality already for us. Like we built the tech, right? It's now about getting the artists that have valuable assets to use it in a way that's meaningful, right? And the challenge is at what point do you make that right to the block chain? Is it in the studio at the creation process? [00:19:34] I don't think so. Is it at the point of distribution, which is why we launched distribution, right? Because I believe that's where the cutoff is from the creative process to the business of music. So we're betting on that being the right space and right place for it. So yeah, we built the Tech Stack, we built the product. [00:19:51] We're now going after the artist that can, you know, evangelize the solutions and, make it meaningful, basical. [00:19:57] Dan Runcie: And then are there any artists that you can share or any examples from, oh yeah, this is an artist that's doing what we're envision  [00:20:03] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, we have some, you know, up and coming artists that's like really, really growing. Like one artist on our platform, his name is MRG, he is like killing it. He started with us from the very beginning with barely no, you know, monthly Spotify listeners to now he has over 400 thousands. And we're, you know, we're in talks with, you know, major label artists that, that are no longer on major label deals that we want to use the platform and, you know, like, make this thing a reality. So it's really about like putting it together. Bringing it together, in a meaningful way. It would be nice if we can like, make this thing scale to all distributors, Right?  [00:20:40] But the problem is, you know, it's also attached to payments, right? So we have to like really showcase this and make it, you know, big first. I think before we can like, yeah, like scale it to everybody else, but ultimately we would love to do that and be the central solution for it all. [00:20:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I feel like with these things, especially in a space like distribution, one or two success stories with those normally help get the eyeballs and they see, oh, okay, this person did it. No different than any the headlines we see, you see what, whether it's the Chainsmokers or you see what BL or some of these other artists have done, and then that generates the attention there. [00:21:17] Cardin Campbell: for sure. For sure. [00:21:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And then thinking about that specifically, I know something else that you've touched on with this is just the idea of how artists can use windowing, specifically astatic, to be able to use both web two and web three, and being able to meet and serve their audience where they're at. How do you see that factoring in. [00:21:37] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, so the reason why we thought of like doing it this way is, another problem to solve in the industry besides, you know, getting assets written to the blockchain so that they're immutable and people own their stuff and no one can take it from them. That's one thing. [00:21:51] Another problem in the industry is that artists typically don't know who their fans are. they just don't, They're consumed so much by all the DSPs and even social platforms, but they don't really know who their fans are. and, and we've seen, you know, platforms like community and, you know, come, come up and, try to give, you know, artists, that ownership of their fan base. [00:22:12] But so I think the way we're approaching it is if we can give an artist the opportunity to, give away an NFT to their fan base, like it's an early listen to an album or a single, so long as they pre-shave the song on Spotify and that pre save will unlock the NFT and give them access to listen to it early. [00:22:33] That then gives us an opportunity to share that fan to the artist and build a community for them. And what I also do another benefit. It trains the Spotify algorithm to say, oh, we have a bunch of pre-safe, that means this song must be good, or this album must be good. It automatically gets added to the algorithm, the algorithmic playlist on Spotify. [00:22:54] So it's like this nice, you know, recursive flywheel effect if we can, you know, apply that using NFTs. Right. you know, and you technically can do it without NFTs, but we feel like the NFT can then now have another lifebeyond that, so if the artist is doing a show somewhere and that person who did the precinct just show happened to be there and bought a ticket in that entity could be a backstage pass or something. [00:23:18] So it just unlocks the opportunity, multiple different opportunities. the way we think about it, way we're gonna approach it. But yeah, windowing, is I think a necessary thing. we've seen the platforms try it without success. I think the success can be realized at the aggregator level because we're not dependent on any of them. [00:23:37] Right? And the artists can, you know, own the fan and give them an experience that none of the individual DSPs can, you know? So that's kinda how we're thinking about, and. [00:23:48] Dan Runcie: Speaking of windowing, you may have just saw the news that Snoop Dogg is re-releasing Death Row Records, but he's giving TikTok a one week exclusivity through their sound on service before putting it on streaming. And that was interesting because at least to my knowledge, I had yet to see an artist or at least you know, a former major label artist do anything like that. [00:24:08] So  [00:24:09] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, we've seen, you know, the Carters do it right with title, but I don't think it's been successful. Just, windowing at the platform level that is. but yeah, I've I haven't heard that, but that's interesting to see him do it. [00:24:20] Dan Runcie: So with this, you're saying that, of course, this isn't at the platform level, but they're saying whatever digital student provider that you used, you can pre-shave this song. You get exclusive access to listen to it on the provider of your choice, whichever one that you're already subscribed to. [00:24:35] Cardin Campbell: We're gonna give them a space to listen to it. At the artist level on Trac, on our platform. Like we spin up a page for them to listen outside of the platforms early. That's what the NFT gives you. It's like a token into that listening experience. And then once the release date hits, you get that notification from your stream platform of choice that, Hey, the release is here and you can go listen, you know, as much as you want. [00:24:59] Dan Runcie: Got it. And as you all were thinking through it, even just, channeling back to the earlier part of this conversation when you were thinking through, okay, a lot of the NFT things didn't exactly work out in the same way. There seems to be some type of consumer disconnect in terms of what they may have valued and what they didn't. [00:25:15] What was the value add for this one, this idea that was like, "yeah, you know what? I think a consumer would be interested in this particular type of NFT that we'd be offering here. [00:25:25] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, the benefit is you know, for both the artists and the fan for the family, get to listen to the song or the album early and for the artist, they get that pre say, which trains the algorithm to, you know, add it to playlists in the future. so that's the benefit for both personas in this case. [00:25:43] Dan Runcie: Got it. That makes sense. And then for you all specifically, I know I mentioned sound on earlier, there's a number of music distribution services out there, and you talked to different artists and I think a lot of them can sometimes feel like they can be a bit commoditized in terms of the roles that they have. [00:25:59] Cardin Campbell: But how do you feel like Trac stands out in that regard? And what are some of the things you've done to help Trac stand out so it isn't seen as just another. [00:26:07] Another. Yeah. So when we thought about the space music tech, we thought web three first, but we're like, we want to be in a position to help artists maximize their earning potential, so monetizationwas the central thing for us. And with that in mind, we thought another problem in the industry is, you know, the, payments and speed of payments. [00:26:30] So when we launched the platform, we lost distribution. We said, why wait two, three months to get your money? We're gonna pay you out weekly. We saw it went viral for us. It was like, holy shit. Who would've thought that this would happen. But you know, when you think about entrepreneurship, like I said, when you're solving a problem, you know, it tends to go viral. [00:26:49] So that's our differentiator. we want to be known as the platform that gets you your money fast. And with distribution, we unlock a bunch of other value around like, to where it feels like. we don't wanna be known as just a distributor, necessarily. So even though that's where we started, but yeah, we get you your money fast and we unlock value at the point of distribution is what we say. [00:27:13] So the minute you, you know, release your music, we also take your cover art and put it on merch. We get you syncs, like it just unlocks value around without you having to do anything else. It's literally one action. Value creation [00:27:27] is our value prop. [00:27:29] Dan Runcie: and this is the value prop you're pushing to artists, artist managers specifically. He's definitely the target that you're trying to reach there. And how would you say that's been on the customer acquisition side? What does that look like for you and what are the most effective ways that Trac  is used to be able to get artists and their managers on board? [00:27:47] Cardin Campbell: So product-led growth is interesting, right? Because it's like it scales and you don't need a bunch of people to acquire people, just do some digital ads. People come the products, you know, converts them. Oh, happy day. While that's great. You don't typically, you know, at a high clip that is, find your target audience and you definitely have to then shift to more of a sales led approach to acquire that target audience. So we are building out, you know, a team of Biz dev folks there are as to go after our target audience with, you know, the value propositions we just talked about earlier to bring on, you know, folks we feel like is our core managers and artists at a certain caliber. [00:28:32] Dan Runcie: Okay. And what is that caliber? How would you define that? [00:28:35] Cardin Campbell: We define it as an artist with 250,000 monthly Spotify listeners. That's our core. [00:28:40] Dan Runcie: Okay, nice. And then with that, is it also, I guess a vision in the artist's mind of, okay, if I'm at 250K now this is where I wanna get to, or this is where I can get to, like with Trac’s help. [00:28:54] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. that's how we want to, you know, position the brand. It's like, Hey, when you're at this point, we want to get you to that next level, that next level being success for us. Well, firstly, I guess I gotta define what success means for us. Success means, you know, you as an artist can make a living doing your art, and whatever the national average is in terms of salary per year, we want every artist on Trac at that level to get to that level of freedom and beyond. [00:29:25] yeah, we're building for that success story. and then some that's like the bare minimum for us. But yeah, we hope to create, you know, the next superstar. Not create, but we hope to help support the next superstar by giving them the tools to make the business side and, you know, management side of their catalog super easy. [00:29:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and one of the benefits that I think I often see with distribution services that stand out is that there's so much discussion right now about independence, ownership, and artists wanting to have more rights that they can stay the course, and they can do that with the service that can grow with them. [00:29:57] And I do think that after a while, The power laws do tend to take over to some extent where, of course I understand the goal is to make sure that everyone can reach at least some minimum viable level. But inevitably there will be a handful of stars that do end up having the outsize returns, hopefully, on a lot of these platforms. [00:30:17] But then it also becomes the flip side of that challenge, which is keeping those people happy because they start getting offers from elsewhere about other things. How has that piece fit? [00:30:27] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. So on one side, you know, people say, don't worry about it. Right? Like, there's nothing wrong with helping an artist, grow and then graduate, let's say, right? I don't want to think of that as like the standard or the norm. because I think, yeah, like, that feels like failure to me, right? [00:30:49] Like if you support an artist and they get to a certain level and they go take a big check that feels like we didn't do our job well, of educating them on. why that may not be the best move. Right. like getting a big check doesn't really mean it's a success, right. So yeah. [00:31:07] We're, we're, we're trying to find the right medium. is really me, like trying to find acceptance in, saying, yeah, you know what, it's okay if they move on to a label or, or, or somewhere else and take a big check. Yeah, I don't wanna accept that right now. [00:31:20] I feel like we need to get them to a certain level and, and make sure that they are educated enough to stay there, you know, and that, that's not only education, but maybe helping them build a team that can support them, you know, as much as they need, you know, as they grow. [00:31:35] Because that's really where I think the drop off is, it's like they feel like, oh, the label will do everything for me, but they don't realize your team outside the label is just as important, if not more important than the label themselves. You know? Cause we've seen a time and time again where you're forgotten, you know, even though you're a signed artist, like Frank Ocean is a perfect example, Right? So yeah, I think the market share is also shifting. So much so that, the role of the label will eventually change. That's my prediction and we're betting that we can establish a relationship with the labels that is different from the one that exists today. [00:32:13] At least that's what I'm imagining will happen. [00:32:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah, this is an interesting topic because I feel that on one hand, there is something to be said for, as you mentioned it yourself, artists moving on from one thing to the other. People are always switching things or sometimes people are trying things differently. They may go to something else like we've seen that a few with how artists may do deals with empire or label like that they do on album and then they choose to do something else on their own. [00:32:39] And it's interesting because I do think that on a lot of the music distribution services, you do technically have the ability to earn as much as you want and continue to maintain ownership and move forward with all the things which is great. The other side, some of the checks that artists do get, and I'm not even saying I advocate for this, some of those checks, it's different when there's $50 million in front of you and that's what the label's giving you. It changes the conversation.  [00:33:07] Cardin Campbell: sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. being, you know, a web three company like, and that that's possible in web three. We're hoping to do some things in defi that can challenge that, like, challenge that like greatly, you So yeah, like can't really talk about too much because it's not baked yet. [00:33:24] But yeah, like we're planning to, you know, combat that somehow, you Um, yeah, I, cause I don't feel like graduating them to a, you know, a state or a place where the problem exists is, is the right thing, even though the check is, you know, is lovely, right? It's like, is, is it really lovely? [00:33:42] You know? Yeah. I don't  [00:33:44] Dan Runcie: And I guess with this, and of course I think we're talking qualitatively, but on a quantitative side, how does this impact churn or any of the more specific benchmarks that you may be evaluating things. [00:33:56] Cardin Campbell: we, yeah, we, we we're not there in our maturity yet to really. Factor that Um, but it's an interesting question. Interesting mental model to, to, to play with for yeah, I mean it's, it's, it could be a good acquisition strategy to say, Hey, look, Trac got all these artists signed to all these major label labels. [00:34:17] So we have like a big funnel of people coming in, but then a smaller funnel of people going out like, yeah, I don't know if that's, that's not the definition of success. . So I, I try not to like, embrace it too much, you know? Yeah. I, I, I, I really hope to solve the problems in the, in the music in, in, in, in every way. [00:34:40] It's a, it's a tough, tall order, but I'm an entrepreneur. I can't help it. [00:34:46] Dan Runcie: What excites you most about this space right now? I know we've talked about a number of things, but what excites you most? Right. [00:34:54] Cardin Campbell: what excites me most is the digitization of the, the business of Um, the immutability of the, the, the assets and making payments,um, work at scale, right? Like, I think waiting two, three months is BS to me. Like it doesn't need to um, that long. I think with the blockchain and with money now being uh, on the. [00:35:20] And trust being like almost solved on the internet with, with web three. I think there's so many opportunities there. So that's where my heart is and that's where we're trying to build, but it's just tough with regulations and tough with user adoption and, you know, all these complicated technologies and whatnot. [00:35:39] So that's why we, you know, we think of the capability stack as I, as I talked about it. It's, it's, it's just another layer. We shouldn't be inundating. artists and fans and people with wallets and all these weird and wonderful things, like it should just be seamless. So yeah, that's where my heart is. That's what keeps me up at night. [00:35:57] That's what, you know, brings me joy in thinking um, yeah, I, I, I can't wait for five years to roll off and we're like, oh shit. Cardin was right. Like, look at, look at what we built. You know, like, yeah. That's, that's what excites me. [00:36:10] Dan Runcie: you talked about wallets and maybe some of the confusion that fans may have with things, and from that I can pull out some of the friction that has existed with. Web three experiences more broadly.  [00:36:22] Can you speak about that piece of it? Cuz we haven't touched on that, but I do feel like that's been part of the barrier for some of the web three adoption as well in that the people that are web three enthusiasts, that was no barrier for them. [00:36:33] They were already native, but some of that Venn diagram of who is a hardcore fan versus who is a web three enthusiast. Those things didn't necessarily always interact in the same way. If they did, then great, that's your demo. But I think that at least historically up until this point, a lot of the companies and a lot of the things they've been launching attracted more of the enthusiasts than they did some of the super fans. [00:36:57] And I think the friction of the wallets and meta masks and some of those things that you needed to be able to fully tap in. Played a factor. [00:37:07] Cardin Campbell: big, it's a big barrier of entry for the masses. Um, and I think, you know, over time the more investments that go into the infrastructure side of web three to make it more seamless. and, and like I said, a part of the, the value stack the, capability we're seamlessly, I think that's where the beauty is, which is why we built all of our web three stuff on Um, not only were they an investor, we, we believe in how they wanna approach it because it's the same, you know? I, I, I think about it in, in the same way. Yeah. Like, no one wants to have to go get this other tool just to interact with the internet, right? We've already invented the browser. [00:37:47] That's it, right? Like, that should be the standard thing and it should just be Um, So yeah, that's how, that's how we think about it. [00:37:54] Dan Runcie: It's interesting because I agree with you. I think it should be seamless. I've also heard this ongoing debate from a few other folks within the Web three community about, they feel like there's pushback on this notion of things that are in web three need to seem like they're less crypto or seem like they're less web three. [00:38:11] And then that's how you get people bought in because of some of that stigma, and I don't think that the stigma necessarily was as much about the actual function as much as it was people, you know, kind of pointing and laughing at a hype. It's almost brings me back to the.com bubble in a lot of ways because yeah, people, some people may have laughed at the internet at the time and there were laughable things that people were trying to do like, you know, delivering ice cream cones to people and pets.com and stuff like that. But what we are now in is this world where everything relies on it. And I think that is the most bullish perspective on web three more broadly. And I do think that still exists and will exist. I think that we just had to get past a lot of that. [00:38:56] And if anything, this post pandemic wave of things coming back to reality and the 97% drop in NFT volume that you'd seen from that Bloomberg report. That's all a sign that, okay, there's no more million dollar pet rocks. That was the wave, and we are now unto hopefully bringing the real businesses to come to fruition. [00:39:18] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, we, gotta solve problems. that's the bottom line. We gotta solve problems. It's technology at the end of the day that we can use to do that, solve a problem,and you know, just as we don't think of companies as not being a web company like, you know, I think that's just what we gotta think of it as. [00:39:38] Like, you're a web company, whether it's web one, two, or three, doesn't matter, like you're just, you are a company that embraces the internet, whether that's web three or web two. Like, I think that the technicals shouldn't matter. Like no one, you know, says, oh, you know, I went to amazon.com and ordered something and, you know, it was written to a no SQL DB and like no one cares. Like what's underneath is like irrelevant, you know? So that's how seamless it has to be, to really like break through, solve problems and give people immutability and, and trust and native currencies on the internet to make it like truly, truly seamless. We'll get there, you know, we just need to get through, like you said, this Pet Rocks movement and soft start solving some problems, which is what we're doing and what we're working on. it's a marathon, not a race, you know, not a sprint. So, yeah. [00:40:29] Dan Runcie: Agree. I think we'll get there too. And would you think maybe more than the short term, let's look at in the next year from now, if things with what you're building with Trac play out the way that you think it will. If you look at the business model you have, where on the distribution side you do take a cut of any of the revenue that comes in from the songs that you distribute. [00:40:46] And then I assume on the web three side of things, you would also take a small percentage of any of the transactions that come through on that side. Where do you project that your revenue mix will most likely come from when you compare the web two side of things, when you compare the web three side of things. [00:41:05] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. Music has always been a transactional business, right? it's always been , you know, we add value here and, you know, we take a percentage of whatever revenue is generated from that relationship, you know, experience. So I think that's gonna always be the case. Even like when you look at companies like Shopify, on the surface, you might think, oh, there, there's a subscription, you know, business model. [00:41:31] Yes it is, but 70% of their revenue is transaction, less than 30% actually is subscription. So I think that's gonna be the typical mix with any company in our space. Whether there's a subscription at, you know, attached to, you know, an artist's plan or whatever. and if we take a percentage, we just approach it differently than most where we take a percentage where we add-value. [00:41:54] So, you know, back to what I was saying earlier, when we launched with Speedy payouts and get your money, you know, week after the stream happened versus two months, that's when we take a percentage versus some companies say, we're gonna take 20% just to deliver your song to Spotify. That's bullshit to me. [00:42:09] You know? So, yeah, it's gonna be a mix of, you know, different, you know, streams of revenue, some subscription, because you need a pay wall just to make sure you're, dealing with serious people. That's the subscription side, but I think the majority of it's gonna be from the revenues generated from that relationship being established, and if we can add, you know, a little bit more service to our mix, to help an artist even grow even more, that's another example of adding value to why aren't you taking a percentage? [00:42:38] But yeah, I think the transactional revenue's gonna be the lion share of where the revenue comes from. [00:42:42] That's what I was  [00:42:43] Dan Runcie: gonna ask about next because I know that if we take that Shopify example further, they have their white club or their white glove enterprise offering for the clients that they hope that they can keep, that don't go create their own website or create their own stack, right? And tie back to what we said earlier, that would be. [00:43:00] I assume how you all would try to make sure you keep those superstar potential artists on Trac opposed to doing their thing. [00:43:08] Yeah. Yeah. we we're building out a concierge team as we speak. we just hired a sales guide that, that can help those clients, those artists and artists teams, you know, achieve goals that they might have and really have a more intimate relationship with them. So one might say, oh, that's a label. [00:43:25] Like we think of it like any other business that, you know, sells a software license that gives you an account manager. that's how we think of it. So it's like Salesforce, you pay them a million dollars for software, guess what? They're gonna make sure you have a success manager to make sure that you achieve your goals, that you can renew every year, every year. [00:43:45] So that's kind of how we're approaching the business for that top tier in hopes that they don't go graduate as they say to some label. But if money is the carrot that pulls them away, like I said, we're hoping to solve some of that problem, with some defi Web three shit too, you know? [00:44:00] And I think if that's what things come to, then those are good problems to have, as I always say. [00:44:05] Yeah, absolutely. Good problems to have. Yeah. Definitely. Well Cardin, this is great. Appreciate the breakdown on everything related to Trac where things are moving forward, and just good to hear where you see things moving with the industry. [00:44:17] I think a lot of companies are trying to see where things sit and what you're building as a reminder that you don't have to pick between one, find a way to integrate it into your business model and potentially do both of them. So before we let you go, what's the best way for whether it's an artist, manager, or for anyone else that's listening that's in the space to follow along with what Trac is doing? [00:44:38] Cardin Campbell: They can go to Trac.co or go to our social, Trac.co I think everywhere. and follow along, you know, all the things we're talking about. You know, we're, gonna be doing a lot more on the content side as well to just to educate the artist and, you know, talk about the problems that exist and how we are the wedge or the solution for those problems. [00:44:55] So yeah, I think our website and our socials. Would be a great place to start. and then yeah, we can take it from there. [00:45:02] Dan Runcie: Good stuff. Cardin, thanks again, and it's always great to have a fellow Jamaican on too, so appreciate you [00:45:13] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. [00:45:34] Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.  Thu, 23 Feb 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Where Web2 and Web3 Meet (with Cardin Campbell) full Dan Runcie In music, web3 hype may have cooled over the last year but there are still builders in the space making moves, like trac’s founder, Cardin Campbell. Trac is one of our sponsors for Trapital, and it was great to have Cardin on to discuss how music tech startups see the big picture and are approaching this. trac is a music distribution service, but it wants to bridge web2 and web3 together in a way most distribution services aren’t. Cardin sees an opportunity to digitize how royalty payments are made without disrupting the Web2 experiences on Apple Music and Spotify. That can remain, while blockchain technology adds a layer to bring an artist’s superfans around for the journey. In this episode, we discussed web3 music — what was overhyped, what has lasting value, and where things go from here. Here’s what you can expect:  [2:57] Finding a wedge in web3 music  [5:17] What people get wrong about web3 and ownership [9:25] SEC challenges with NFT royalties   [12:04] Most music fans don’t want to invest in artists [15:31] Where web3 and web2 meet in music [19:13] Building trac’s platform  [21:37] Benefit of artists “windowing” music releases [25:59] How trac sets itself apart [32:15] Artists “moving on” after reaching success  [34:54] What’s most exciting in web3 right now [36:22] Biggest friction points to web3 [41:05] Projecting trac’s revenue mix between web2 and web3 [44:38] How to follow trac’s process Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Cardin Campbell, @iamcardin Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Cardin Campbell: Success means, you know, you as an artist can make a living doing your art, and whatever the national average is in terms of salary per year, we want every artist on track at that level to get to that level of freedom and beyond. [00:00:17] yeah, we're building for that success story. and then some that's like the bare minimum for us. But yeah, we hope to create, you know, the next superstar. Not create, but we hope to help support the next superstar by giving them the tools to make the business side and, you know, management side of their catalog super easy. [00:00:35] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more. Who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  [00:01:03] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is all about where Web two and Web three meet each other in the music industry. It has been a rollercoaster past couple of years in terms of NFTs Web three Crypto and how all of it makes sense for artists, musicians, record labels, and more to help make sense of where we are and where things are going. [00:01:21] I sat down with Cardin Campbell, who is the founder of Trac is on a mission to empower artists to reach their fans more closely than ever, whether that's by distributing their music directly to the digital streaming providers or through NFTs so that their most passionate fans can get early access and a small ownership stake in their music moving forward. [00:01:42] Trac is also one of sponsors, so it was great to be able to talk with them about their solutions more deeply and how they're serving artists. In this conversation. We also talked about some of the other challenges that happened with music distribution, such as when you have those superstar artists, how do you keep them on board? [00:02:02] We also talked about broader trends in web three, where things are going, what some companies are getting right, wrong, and more really great conversation. I like the way Cardin sees things. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Cardin Campbell. [00:02:17] Dan Runcie:  [00:02:17] All right. Today we got a full conversation on deck. We're gonna talk about where Web two, when Web three, meet each other with someone that is living and breathing this every day, Cardin Campbell, founder of Trac. Welcome. [00:02:29] Cardin Campbell: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Good to  [00:02:30] be here. [00:02:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. I feel like you and I have had a few conversations about this, and the industry's been in such a fascinating place right now. You look at the past year and a half with Web three, crypto NFTs. It's been a rollercoaster in terms of where the industry is, where people stand, where companies stand, and where they're focusing on. [00:02:51] How do you feel like we are right now? What's your macro take on where the industry is right now with regards to web three? [00:02:57] Cardin Campbell: I think the industry's in an interesting place. I think we're still trying to find that wedge of where web three or this concept of Web three, you know, aids music in any way. You know, I think a lot of people, are trying to think of it like this separate space and you know, this place where you can sell more of stuff and generate more revenue for the industry. [00:03:19] And I think that can happen, but I don't think it's going to happen in a way that we've been approaching it to date, you know, but yeah, I think we're still trying to find out which ultimately is where we currently are. [00:03:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think one of the challenges was that there were so many cool and nifty ideas that people had about what something could look like, but at the end of the day, you needed to have a real functional aspect that would add value in a way that you are either making something easier for the consumer or you are making it more unique in a way. [00:03:49] And I feel like a lot of the things that are being pushed, were more focused on, oh, here's this cool, almost wonky idea of what something could look like as opposed to, boom, here's a fundamental shift change into how things were and how things could be moving forward. [00:04:04] Cardin Campbell: Yeah.  [00:04:05] Yeah. It's really like, you know, the classic case of entrepreneurship and startup, right? It's like you try to find a problem to solve and then solve that problem, whereas with web three, there's so many cool things you could do. And people were just like building cool things and then trying to find a problem, you know, later. [00:04:24] Right. So I think that's why we're still trying to find our wedge in the whole space, but because it's just been a case of, "Oh, we can do this and do that and like, wouldn't this be nice?" You know, but not really centralizing, you know, the focus on problems to solve, right? And then solving them. [00:04:39] Yeah. [00:04:40] Dan Runcie: And as you look back on it yourself, as someone that's been following the industry to to a deep extent yourself, do you feel like there are parts where you yourself are like, huh, maybe I had overstated where I thought this was gonna go? Because I think that each of us probably bought into some of the height and potential to at least some extent. [00:04:57] Cardin Campbell: Yeah,  [00:04:57] so I still feel like we have, we've got it right to a degree, and I'll explain, right, so a lot of people approach Web three music in this like way of thinking of it like it's another medium, you know, for people to consume music, to buy it, like it's a collectible and I think that's the wrong approach. [00:05:17] That's just my personal feeling. I've always thought that, and probably will always think that until I'm convinced otherwise, right? Because you can't really treat it like a new medium. When Spotify and Apple, you know, has the fan experience, you know, being the best it's ever been, like I feel like discovery has been solved, do you know what I mean? Like the algorithms and all the things that they provide to help you discover new music and just have access to all the songs, right? There is the best it's ever been. So companies that's been approaching it where they're thinking, oh, web three, we can generate NFTs out of songs and sell them. [00:05:56] I don't know that that's it. like, I hope I'm wrong cause it feels like an opportunity, right? To generate more revenue for the industry but I don't think that that's it because we've seen iTunes come and go, right? they were selling a digital file that was the MP3 for a dollar and that was cool for its time. [00:06:12] But then we shipped to streaming, they bought beats and turned into Apple Music and, right? Like it shifted. So I don't think that that's it. And I think that's where a lot, you know, the focus has been, and I think that's where people are getting it wrong. Because it's not, another, you know, medium, so to speak. [00:06:29] Dan Runcie: That's a good point because I do think that part of the reason that streaming took off, and a lot of this was in conflict of what Steve Jobs himself thought. He of course, is one of the big proponents of iTunes, and I think for its time, iTunes especially, when did it launch 2003? I believe that was the answer at the time. [00:06:48] You could buy your favorite song for 99 cents or a $1.29, whatever it was at the time. But after a while, consumers really didn't wanna do that. And I feel like one of the reasons why Spotify worked, granted, I know that the company has had its own ups and downs over the years, but one of the reasons why I think Spotify works is because it met consumers where they were at. People wanted to have access that at the time mattered more than ownership. So some of these things that are going back more to ownership, like whether it's companies or models that you're referencing, it brings us back to that. And it's not that people don't wanna own things. [00:07:22] They clearly do. You see the boom of vinyls and other things. It's just not ownership in the way that we may have thought, or that some of these companies may have. [00:07:31] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. And when you think about it from an ownership standpoint, like you don't technically own the MP3 when you bought it from iTunes, and when you're selling a .wav file or an MP3 as an NFT, which is the same thing, you don't technically own it, you're own like access to it. Like [00:07:47] Dan Runcie: Your copy of it. [00:07:48] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. Your copy of it. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, I just don't think that's the right approach. Now, I think the mistake people are making in Web three in particular is trying to mirror what we've seen happen with PFP NFTs, right? Like they, you know, collect them and it has this, you know, extreme high value from the doodles, you know, crypto punks and bored apes and all that, they're trying to mirror that. But fine art or the representation of art as NFTs in web three is a different thing than collecting music, right? Like you can't collect the mp3 like you, I mean, I guess you can, like we did with CDs and vinyl, but I think that's dead. [00:08:30] and I think that's where we're trying to like force something to be what It's not, right? Music is valuable when millions of people listen to it and love it, whereas fine art, it's like a one of one thing and that's where the value comes from, you know, I think the more apples to apples comparison with music and fine art is the actual royalty now that's the product of music and then we have two of them. [00:08:53] So music is just way more nuanced and more dynamic than fine art is. And I think, you know, those companies that are approaching it from the, let's collect the mp3 or the .wav file or sell it as this thing, you know, to consume it like another medium. I think that's all wrong. And like I said, I hope I'm wrong because I support anybody in the space trying to build a better tomorrow for music creators and the artists right, to make more money. [00:09:18] but I just don't think that's necessary. I do think the royalty side is it, but the SEC makes it complicated. [00:09:25] Dan Runcie: Let's talk more about this because when I think of the whole one of one thing, of course the physical example, you think about that Wutang album, the Once Upon a Time in Shaolin, that was essentially a one of one, and I know that that's traded hands a few different times more recently as last year, but I guess if we're thinking about it from your lens, you're saying that that isn't necessarily the product since obviously it can be copied and replicated in the same way that you and I could have a replica of the Mona Lisa, in our house, the real value is the actual recording itself, so you feel like the royalty, or at least that piece is the piece to focus on. [00:10:02] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. That's where the value is. Like when we see all these companies buying catalog, you know, they're buying the royalties, right? Whether the publishing side or the masters, right? Like that's where the money is, that's where the value is, that's the asset, right? sure you can replicate that thing in the, you know, the Wutang example, and I think Nipsey Hussle mighta did something too at one point in time, selling his album for a thousand bucks. [00:10:25] But that to me is a, a marketing thing. That's like a part of an album rollout. And if you have the cache like Wutang had and Nipsey had, you can do those things, right? But when you think about doing this at scale. Where every artist can, you know, benefit and, embrace this new model or approach, that's when it starts to break down. [00:10:45] And that's when you know, it's like, that's not it, that's not the answer. [00:10:48] Dan Runcie: You mentioned SEC part of it before. And I think we've seen a few different challenges from some companies that have tried to do creative things where fans could either buy a NFT or that could get them some fractional ownership of the music moving forward. And that what that actually looks like. [00:11:05] There are companies such as SongVest and others that have gone through the securitization process. How do you view that aspect and how do you feel like that aspect of the ownership or what you may see on royalty exchange or one of those types of platforms.  [00:11:20] Cardin Campbell: So, I think of it, in two ways. So I love it because fractionalizing, the actual asset is a beautiful thing, right? the SEC though, I think, I could be wrong, but I think from what I've been hearing and reading, the SEC thinks of it as a security. The minute it's fractionalized and then you have to go through the whole regulatory process and it just kills the flexibility you can have, it kills the scalability you can have with it If it's on the blockchain and it doesn't have to go to this regulatory, you can like BS. So that's one side, on the other side, you know, we now have a different audience that we're like selling these things too, because, the casual fan is not the audience as much as we think it is. [00:12:04] Like there's a Venn diagram that exists, right? That says, yep, we have some fans that are investors, but truly who we're targeting our, we're talking about investors of music, people who value catalog and wants to own it. And yeah, that's just a different beast. [00:12:18] And that's why we haven't seen it like really take off. Like we would think, in my opinion, because we haven't like really targeted the fans just yet. And find something that they would value just as much as the consumption of the music, [00:12:32] Dan Runcie: So two questions for you on that. Let's start with the actual fans themselves and some of the misreading that I think people had on whether or not the average fan would wanna invest in or own a piece of a stake in the fan, the artist's music. Why do you think that there was an overstate or an over assumption of how much the fan would be interested in there? [00:12:56] Cuz that was a pretty popular point for sometime [00:12:59] Cardin Campbell: right.  [00:13:00] I don't know. I think, you know, it sounds cool. It sounds like, oh wow. Like if you know, we have billions of people in the world that love music. I think the last time I checked, I think six plus billion people listen to music every day. So when you think about like the total accessible market, you're like, oh shit, that's a huge market. [00:13:18] Cardin Campbell: And if we can fractionize this one asset and sell it to a bunch of people, And then they can sell it to amongst themselves. Your head explodes right at the the potential scale of this thing. but with the regulatory, you know, stuff and then the fact that fans aren't really investors, it's kind of like "womp womp", right? [00:13:36] It's like that's when you realize it's like not as sexy as it sounds, in theory, on paper. [00:13:41] Yeah, the analogy that I've always used with it is, I think if you look at the popularity of something like, Apple and the iPhone and all their products. So many people have the Apple phones themselves, but that doesn't mean that all those people necessarily have Apple stock in that way. There's a person that's gonna be the retail investor in Apple stock than the person that is still going to buy a MacBook, a iPhone, an iPad, and everything else that they have, AirPods, you name I think there was an overestimation there. And then I think additionally just with the psychology of how a fan thinks it interacts with music. I think sometimes this is part of the challenge with confusing things with sports because I think that people looked at the popularity of fantasy football and just gambling and how gambling has exploded. [00:14:28] The monetization in sports in general, and I know that several music executives have asked me like, what could this look like? And I know that there's startups that have tried to do more of the fantasy sports for music, but. It's a different fan base and it's a different type of experience and product. And what a lot of these fans are into, at least from if they wanna have something beyond just the $9.99 per month that they pay for Spotify, they don't wanna collect a vinyl, they wanna have some piece of merch, they wanna go to a concert. [00:14:58] They want things that don't necessarily always lead to actual like cash value that they could trade in, in the long term, but they want something that means something to them. [00:15:09] Yeah, they want something that shows how much of a fan they are of that particular band or artist. And yeah, like, you know, in a nutshell, fans aren't investors, and investors and fans aren't gamers. Like, in the fantasy football example, like three different customer base right there, three different audience, three different personas. T here's a Venn diagram, like I said, but by and large, they're three different people. [00:15:31] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And I think one of the other things too that you touched on earlier was just where web two and where web three meet each other because I think that a lot of the early web three excitement was around. People pointing out some of the challenges that exist for the digital streaming providers and the payouts that they give to artists, and seeing Web three as a solution to that to put more inherent value on music. [00:15:54] Cardin Campbell: And I think a lot of those things sound good. But I do think that the more actual reality, as you've said both here and even in past conversations you've had is where the two of these meet each other. And from your perspective, what do you think the best approach is, or some of the best things you've seen look like where you do see Web two and Web three meet each other in music to actually provide value for fans? [00:16:18] Right. So I guess let's define what Web three means by starting with Web one, right? So, the definition that I've used, you know, with people is web, one is read, web two is read, write, web three is read, write and own, right? And what I encourage people to do is not think of them as three separate spaces. [00:16:40] They're actually a stack, a capability stack, let's call it, right? That, you know, you had one capability in web one. We can read things like a magazine, which is why it's called a webpage, cuz it's like a page of a magazine we read, right? As you know, the error we're in now where you can post things on social and leave comments and write all kinds of things on the web. [00:17:02] and web three is read, write, own. I think it's just another capability that we now have, and I think stacking it in that way is where the value is. You still want to give people the experience and the, you know, the UX of web two, but the invisible, immutable experience that the blockchain also has and provides. [00:17:24] Cardin Campbell: So I think when you think about web three music, the way we're approaching it is, yeah, let's give them user experience in web two, but let's also write their royalties and their ownership on the blockchain. So it's immutable, it's saved forever. No one, can take it away from them, which solves a problem that exists in the industry today. Because a lot of the industry still on pen and paper, it's not very digitized just yet. So I think Web Three gives us an opportunity to digitize the music industry in ways that we've never been able to do it before beyond just a PDF or whatever, right? It's like, yes, these are real assets. We can put them on the blockchain and keep them there. [00:17:59] And I think, you know, if we think about it from that perspective, the blockchain and Web three music is more of a B2B play between the creators and the rights holders themselves. And it makes it really scalable to send, exchange and trade these royalties, in a space that is immutable and no one can change it. [00:18:19] No one can, take it away. Cause we've heard Snoop say, you know, man, the first couple of albums at death row, I wrote, what's the publishing check? I never saw a publishing. I wrote 70% of the Chronic and I wrote, that would never happen in this new era with the way we're approaching web three music, it's like, hey, let's publish your work and write itinto the blockchain. You own it, it's in your wallet. No one can take it away, Right? And if, we can streamline that and make that a standard, I think we would solve a lot of problems. and then once everybody has their stuff in their wallet. Yeah, there can be a space where we, in web two, give them the ability to trade it with each other, sell it amongst each other, sell it to a hypnosis or whomever. [00:19:04] But it's all immutable. that's my thoughts. [00:19:07] Dan Runcie: And then with that, where are you right now at Trac with making that a reality for artists? [00:19:13] Cardin Campbell: So, it's a reality already for us. Like we built the tech, right? It's now about getting the artists that have valuable assets to use it in a way that's meaningful, right? And the challenge is at what point do you make that right to the block chain? Is it in the studio at the creation process? [00:19:34] I don't think so. Is it at the point of distribution, which is why we launched distribution, right? Because I believe that's where the cutoff is from the creative process to the business of music. So we're betting on that being the right space and right place for it. So yeah, we built the Tech Stack, we built the product. [00:19:51] We're now going after the artist that can, you know, evangelize the solutions and, make it meaningful, basical. [00:19:57] Dan Runcie: And then are there any artists that you can share or any examples from, oh yeah, this is an artist that's doing what we're envision  [00:20:03] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, we have some, you know, up and coming artists that's like really, really growing. Like one artist on our platform, his name is MRG, he is like killing it. He started with us from the very beginning with barely no, you know, monthly Spotify listeners to now he has over 400 thousands. And we're, you know, we're in talks with, you know, major label artists that, that are no longer on major label deals that we want to use the platform and, you know, like, make this thing a reality. So it's really about like putting it together. Bringing it together, in a meaningful way. It would be nice if we can like, make this thing scale to all distributors, Right?  [00:20:40] But the problem is, you know, it's also attached to payments, right? So we have to like really showcase this and make it, you know, big first. I think before we can like, yeah, like scale it to everybody else, but ultimately we would love to do that and be the central solution for it all. [00:20:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I feel like with these things, especially in a space like distribution, one or two success stories with those normally help get the eyeballs and they see, oh, okay, this person did it. No different than any the headlines we see, you see what, whether it's the Chainsmokers or you see what BL or some of these other artists have done, and then that generates the attention there. [00:21:17] Cardin Campbell: for sure. For sure. [00:21:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And then thinking about that specifically, I know something else that you've touched on with this is just the idea of how artists can use windowing, specifically astatic, to be able to use both web two and web three, and being able to meet and serve their audience where they're at. How do you see that factoring in. [00:21:37] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, so the reason why we thought of like doing it this way is, another problem to solve in the industry besides, you know, getting assets written to the blockchain so that they're immutable and people own their stuff and no one can take it from them. That's one thing. [00:21:51] Another problem in the industry is that artists typically don't know who their fans are. they just don't, They're consumed so much by all the DSPs and even social platforms, but they don't really know who their fans are. and, and we've seen, you know, platforms like community and, you know, come, come up and, try to give, you know, artists, that ownership of their fan base. [00:22:12] But so I think the way we're approaching it is if we can give an artist the opportunity to, give away an NFT to their fan base, like it's an early listen to an album or a single, so long as they pre-shave the song on Spotify and that pre save will unlock the NFT and give them access to listen to it early. [00:22:33] That then gives us an opportunity to share that fan to the artist and build a community for them. And what I also do another benefit. It trains the Spotify algorithm to say, oh, we have a bunch of pre-safe, that means this song must be good, or this album must be good. It automatically gets added to the algorithm, the algorithmic playlist on Spotify. [00:22:54] So it's like this nice, you know, recursive flywheel effect if we can, you know, apply that using NFTs. Right. you know, and you technically can do it without NFTs, but we feel like the NFT can then now have another lifebeyond that, so if the artist is doing a show somewhere and that person who did the precinct just show happened to be there and bought a ticket in that entity could be a backstage pass or something. [00:23:18] So it just unlocks the opportunity, multiple different opportunities. the way we think about it, way we're gonna approach it. But yeah, windowing, is I think a necessary thing. we've seen the platforms try it without success. I think the success can be realized at the aggregator level because we're not dependent on any of them. [00:23:37] Right? And the artists can, you know, own the fan and give them an experience that none of the individual DSPs can, you know? So that's kinda how we're thinking about, and. [00:23:48] Dan Runcie: Speaking of windowing, you may have just saw the news that Snoop Dogg is re-releasing Death Row Records, but he's giving TikTok a one week exclusivity through their sound on service before putting it on streaming. And that was interesting because at least to my knowledge, I had yet to see an artist or at least you know, a former major label artist do anything like that. [00:24:08] So  [00:24:09] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, we've seen, you know, the Carters do it right with title, but I don't think it's been successful. Just, windowing at the platform level that is. but yeah, I've I haven't heard that, but that's interesting to see him do it. [00:24:20] Dan Runcie: So with this, you're saying that, of course, this isn't at the platform level, but they're saying whatever digital student provider that you used, you can pre-shave this song. You get exclusive access to listen to it on the provider of your choice, whichever one that you're already subscribed to. [00:24:35] Cardin Campbell: We're gonna give them a space to listen to it. At the artist level on Trac, on our platform. Like we spin up a page for them to listen outside of the platforms early. That's what the NFT gives you. It's like a token into that listening experience. And then once the release date hits, you get that notification from your stream platform of choice that, Hey, the release is here and you can go listen, you know, as much as you want. [00:24:59] Dan Runcie: Got it. And as you all were thinking through it, even just, channeling back to the earlier part of this conversation when you were thinking through, okay, a lot of the NFT things didn't exactly work out in the same way. There seems to be some type of consumer disconnect in terms of what they may have valued and what they didn't. [00:25:15] What was the value add for this one, this idea that was like, "yeah, you know what? I think a consumer would be interested in this particular type of NFT that we'd be offering here. [00:25:25] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, the benefit is you know, for both the artists and the fan for the family, get to listen to the song or the album early and for the artist, they get that pre say, which trains the algorithm to, you know, add it to playlists in the future. so that's the benefit for both personas in this case. [00:25:43] Dan Runcie: Got it. That makes sense. And then for you all specifically, I know I mentioned sound on earlier, there's a number of music distribution services out there, and you talked to different artists and I think a lot of them can sometimes feel like they can be a bit commoditized in terms of the roles that they have. [00:25:59] Cardin Campbell: But how do you feel like Trac stands out in that regard? And what are some of the things you've done to help Trac stand out so it isn't seen as just another. [00:26:07] Another. Yeah. So when we thought about the space music tech, we thought web three first, but we're like, we want to be in a position to help artists maximize their earning potential, so monetizationwas the central thing for us. And with that in mind, we thought another problem in the industry is, you know, the, payments and speed of payments. [00:26:30] So when we launched the platform, we lost distribution. We said, why wait two, three months to get your money? We're gonna pay you out weekly. We saw it went viral for us. It was like, holy shit. Who would've thought that this would happen. But you know, when you think about entrepreneurship, like I said, when you're solving a problem, you know, it tends to go viral. [00:26:49] So that's our differentiator. we want to be known as the platform that gets you your money fast. And with distribution, we unlock a bunch of other value around like, to where it feels like. we don't wanna be known as just a distributor, necessarily. So even though that's where we started, but yeah, we get you your money fast and we unlock value at the point of distribution is what we say. [00:27:13] So the minute you, you know, release your music, we also take your cover art and put it on merch. We get you syncs, like it just unlocks value around without you having to do anything else. It's literally one action. Value creation [00:27:27] is our value prop. [00:27:29] Dan Runcie: and this is the value prop you're pushing to artists, artist managers specifically. He's definitely the target that you're trying to reach there. And how would you say that's been on the customer acquisition side? What does that look like for you and what are the most effective ways that Trac  is used to be able to get artists and their managers on board? [00:27:47] Cardin Campbell: So product-led growth is interesting, right? Because it's like it scales and you don't need a bunch of people to acquire people, just do some digital ads. People come the products, you know, converts them. Oh, happy day. While that's great. You don't typically, you know, at a high clip that is, find your target audience and you definitely have to then shift to more of a sales led approach to acquire that target audience. So we are building out, you know, a team of Biz dev folks there are as to go after our target audience with, you know, the value propositions we just talked about earlier to bring on, you know, folks we feel like is our core managers and artists at a certain caliber. [00:28:32] Dan Runcie: Okay. And what is that caliber? How would you define that? [00:28:35] Cardin Campbell: We define it as an artist with 250,000 monthly Spotify listeners. That's our core. [00:28:40] Dan Runcie: Okay, nice. And then with that, is it also, I guess a vision in the artist's mind of, okay, if I'm at 250K now this is where I wanna get to, or this is where I can get to, like with Trac’s help. [00:28:54] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. that's how we want to, you know, position the brand. It's like, Hey, when you're at this point, we want to get you to that next level, that next level being success for us. Well, firstly, I guess I gotta define what success means for us. Success means, you know, you as an artist can make a living doing your art, and whatever the national average is in terms of salary per year, we want every artist on Trac at that level to get to that level of freedom and beyond. [00:29:25] yeah, we're building for that success story. and then some that's like the bare minimum for us. But yeah, we hope to create, you know, the next superstar. Not create, but we hope to help support the next superstar by giving them the tools to make the business side and, you know, management side of their catalog super easy. [00:29:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and one of the benefits that I think I often see with distribution services that stand out is that there's so much discussion right now about independence, ownership, and artists wanting to have more rights that they can stay the course, and they can do that with the service that can grow with them. [00:29:57] And I do think that after a while, The power laws do tend to take over to some extent where, of course I understand the goal is to make sure that everyone can reach at least some minimum viable level. But inevitably there will be a handful of stars that do end up having the outsize returns, hopefully, on a lot of these platforms. [00:30:17] But then it also becomes the flip side of that challenge, which is keeping those people happy because they start getting offers from elsewhere about other things. How has that piece fit? [00:30:27] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. So on one side, you know, people say, don't worry about it. Right? Like, there's nothing wrong with helping an artist, grow and then graduate, let's say, right? I don't want to think of that as like the standard or the norm. because I think, yeah, like, that feels like failure to me, right? [00:30:49] Like if you support an artist and they get to a certain level and they go take a big check that feels like we didn't do our job well, of educating them on. why that may not be the best move. Right. like getting a big check doesn't really mean it's a success, right. So yeah. [00:31:07] We're, we're, we're trying to find the right medium. is really me, like trying to find acceptance in, saying, yeah, you know what, it's okay if they move on to a label or, or, or somewhere else and take a big check. Yeah, I don't wanna accept that right now. [00:31:20] I feel like we need to get them to a certain level and, and make sure that they are educated enough to stay there, you know, and that, that's not only education, but maybe helping them build a team that can support them, you know, as much as they need, you know, as they grow. [00:31:35] Because that's really where I think the drop off is, it's like they feel like, oh, the label will do everything for me, but they don't realize your team outside the label is just as important, if not more important than the label themselves. You know? Cause we've seen a time and time again where you're forgotten, you know, even though you're a signed artist, like Frank Ocean is a perfect example, Right? So yeah, I think the market share is also shifting. So much so that, the role of the label will eventually change. That's my prediction and we're betting that we can establish a relationship with the labels that is different from the one that exists today. [00:32:13] At least that's what I'm imagining will happen. [00:32:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah, this is an interesting topic because I feel that on one hand, there is something to be said for, as you mentioned it yourself, artists moving on from one thing to the other. People are always switching things or sometimes people are trying things differently. They may go to something else like we've seen that a few with how artists may do deals with empire or label like that they do on album and then they choose to do something else on their own. [00:32:39] And it's interesting because I do think that on a lot of the music distribution services, you do technically have the ability to earn as much as you want and continue to maintain ownership and move forward with all the things which is great. The other side, some of the checks that artists do get, and I'm not even saying I advocate for this, some of those checks, it's different when there's $50 million in front of you and that's what the label's giving you. It changes the conversation.  [00:33:07] Cardin Campbell: sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. being, you know, a web three company like, and that that's possible in web three. We're hoping to do some things in defi that can challenge that, like, challenge that like greatly, you So yeah, like can't really talk about too much because it's not baked yet. [00:33:24] But yeah, like we're planning to, you know, combat that somehow, you Um, yeah, I, cause I don't feel like graduating them to a, you know, a state or a place where the problem exists is, is the right thing, even though the check is, you know, is lovely, right? It's like, is, is it really lovely? [00:33:42] You know? Yeah. I don't  [00:33:44] Dan Runcie: And I guess with this, and of course I think we're talking qualitatively, but on a quantitative side, how does this impact churn or any of the more specific benchmarks that you may be evaluating things. [00:33:56] Cardin Campbell: we, yeah, we, we we're not there in our maturity yet to really. Factor that Um, but it's an interesting question. Interesting mental model to, to, to play with for yeah, I mean it's, it's, it could be a good acquisition strategy to say, Hey, look, Trac got all these artists signed to all these major label labels. [00:34:17] So we have like a big funnel of people coming in, but then a smaller funnel of people going out like, yeah, I don't know if that's, that's not the definition of success. . So I, I try not to like, embrace it too much, you know? Yeah. I, I, I, I really hope to solve the problems in the, in the music in, in, in, in every way. [00:34:40] It's a, it's a tough, tall order, but I'm an entrepreneur. I can't help it. [00:34:46] Dan Runcie: What excites you most about this space right now? I know we've talked about a number of things, but what excites you most? Right. [00:34:54] Cardin Campbell: what excites me most is the digitization of the, the business of Um, the immutability of the, the, the assets and making payments,um, work at scale, right? Like, I think waiting two, three months is BS to me. Like it doesn't need to um, that long. I think with the blockchain and with money now being uh, on the. [00:35:20] And trust being like almost solved on the internet with, with web three. I think there's so many opportunities there. So that's where my heart is and that's where we're trying to build, but it's just tough with regulations and tough with user adoption and, you know, all these complicated technologies and whatnot. [00:35:39] So that's why we, you know, we think of the capability stack as I, as I talked about it. It's, it's, it's just another layer. We shouldn't be inundating. artists and fans and people with wallets and all these weird and wonderful things, like it should just be seamless. So yeah, that's where my heart is. That's what keeps me up at night. [00:35:57] That's what, you know, brings me joy in thinking um, yeah, I, I, I can't wait for five years to roll off and we're like, oh shit. Cardin was right. Like, look at, look at what we built. You know, like, yeah. That's, that's what excites me. [00:36:10] Dan Runcie: you talked about wallets and maybe some of the confusion that fans may have with things, and from that I can pull out some of the friction that has existed with. Web three experiences more broadly.  [00:36:22] Can you speak about that piece of it? Cuz we haven't touched on that, but I do feel like that's been part of the barrier for some of the web three adoption as well in that the people that are web three enthusiasts, that was no barrier for them. [00:36:33] They were already native, but some of that Venn diagram of who is a hardcore fan versus who is a web three enthusiast. Those things didn't necessarily always interact in the same way. If they did, then great, that's your demo. But I think that at least historically up until this point, a lot of the companies and a lot of the things they've been launching attracted more of the enthusiasts than they did some of the super fans. [00:36:57] And I think the friction of the wallets and meta masks and some of those things that you needed to be able to fully tap in. Played a factor. [00:37:07] Cardin Campbell: big, it's a big barrier of entry for the masses. Um, and I think, you know, over time the more investments that go into the infrastructure side of web three to make it more seamless. and, and like I said, a part of the, the value stack the, capability we're seamlessly, I think that's where the beauty is, which is why we built all of our web three stuff on Um, not only were they an investor, we, we believe in how they wanna approach it because it's the same, you know? I, I, I think about it in, in the same way. Yeah. Like, no one wants to have to go get this other tool just to interact with the internet, right? We've already invented the browser. [00:37:47] That's it, right? Like, that should be the standard thing and it should just be Um, So yeah, that's how, that's how we think about it. [00:37:54] Dan Runcie: It's interesting because I agree with you. I think it should be seamless. I've also heard this ongoing debate from a few other folks within the Web three community about, they feel like there's pushback on this notion of things that are in web three need to seem like they're less crypto or seem like they're less web three. [00:38:11] And then that's how you get people bought in because of some of that stigma, and I don't think that the stigma necessarily was as much about the actual function as much as it was people, you know, kind of pointing and laughing at a hype. It's almost brings me back to the.com bubble in a lot of ways because yeah, people, some people may have laughed at the internet at the time and there were laughable things that people were trying to do like, you know, delivering ice cream cones to people and pets.com and stuff like that. But what we are now in is this world where everything relies on it. And I think that is the most bullish perspective on web three more broadly. And I do think that still exists and will exist. I think that we just had to get past a lot of that. [00:38:56] And if anything, this post pandemic wave of things coming back to reality and the 97% drop in NFT volume that you'd seen from that Bloomberg report. That's all a sign that, okay, there's no more million dollar pet rocks. That was the wave, and we are now unto hopefully bringing the real businesses to come to fruition. [00:39:18] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, we, gotta solve problems. that's the bottom line. We gotta solve problems. It's technology at the end of the day that we can use to do that, solve a problem,and you know, just as we don't think of companies as not being a web company like, you know, I think that's just what we gotta think of it as. [00:39:38] Like, you're a web company, whether it's web one, two, or three, doesn't matter, like you're just, you are a company that embraces the internet, whether that's web three or web two. Like, I think that the technicals shouldn't matter. Like no one, you know, says, oh, you know, I went to amazon.com and ordered something and, you know, it was written to a no SQL DB and like no one cares. Like what's underneath is like irrelevant, you know? So that's how seamless it has to be, to really like break through, solve problems and give people immutability and, and trust and native currencies on the internet to make it like truly, truly seamless. We'll get there, you know, we just need to get through, like you said, this Pet Rocks movement and soft start solving some problems, which is what we're doing and what we're working on. it's a marathon, not a race, you know, not a sprint. So, yeah. [00:40:29] Dan Runcie: Agree. I think we'll get there too. And would you think maybe more than the short term, let's look at in the next year from now, if things with what you're building with Trac play out the way that you think it will. If you look at the business model you have, where on the distribution side you do take a cut of any of the revenue that comes in from the songs that you distribute. [00:40:46] And then I assume on the web three side of things, you would also take a small percentage of any of the transactions that come through on that side. Where do you project that your revenue mix will most likely come from when you compare the web two side of things, when you compare the web three side of things. [00:41:05] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. Music has always been a transactional business, right? it's always been , you know, we add value here and, you know, we take a percentage of whatever revenue is generated from that relationship, you know, experience. So I think that's gonna always be the case. Even like when you look at companies like Shopify, on the surface, you might think, oh, there, there's a subscription, you know, business model. [00:41:31] Yes it is, but 70% of their revenue is transaction, less than 30% actually is subscription. So I think that's gonna be the typical mix with any company in our space. Whether there's a subscription at, you know, attached to, you know, an artist's plan or whatever. and if we take a percentage, we just approach it differently than most where we take a percentage where we add-value. [00:41:54] So, you know, back to what I was saying earlier, when we launched with Speedy payouts and get your money, you know, week after the stream happened versus two months, that's when we take a percentage versus some companies say, we're gonna take 20% just to deliver your song to Spotify. That's bullshit to me. [00:42:09] You know? So, yeah, it's gonna be a mix of, you know, different, you know, streams of revenue, some subscription, because you need a pay wall just to make sure you're, dealing with serious people. That's the subscription side, but I think the majority of it's gonna be from the revenues generated from that relationship being established, and if we can add, you know, a little bit more service to our mix, to help an artist even grow even more, that's another example of adding value to why aren't you taking a percentage? [00:42:38] But yeah, I think the transactional revenue's gonna be the lion share of where the revenue comes from. [00:42:42] That's what I was  [00:42:43] Dan Runcie: gonna ask about next because I know that if we take that Shopify example further, they have their white club or their white glove enterprise offering for the clients that they hope that they can keep, that don't go create their own website or create their own stack, right? And tie back to what we said earlier, that would be. [00:43:00] I assume how you all would try to make sure you keep those superstar potential artists on Trac opposed to doing their thing. [00:43:08] Yeah. Yeah. we we're building out a concierge team as we speak. we just hired a sales guide that, that can help those clients, those artists and artists teams, you know, achieve goals that they might have and really have a more intimate relationship with them. So one might say, oh, that's a label. [00:43:25] Like we think of it like any other business that, you know, sells a software license that gives you an account manager. that's how we think of it. So it's like Salesforce, you pay them a million dollars for software, guess what? They're gonna make sure you have a success manager to make sure that you achieve your goals, that you can renew every year, every year. [00:43:45] So that's kind of how we're approaching the business for that top tier in hopes that they don't go graduate as they say to some label. But if money is the carrot that pulls them away, like I said, we're hoping to solve some of that problem, with some defi Web three shit too, you know? [00:44:00] And I think if that's what things come to, then those are good problems to have, as I always say. [00:44:05] Yeah, absolutely. Good problems to have. Yeah. Definitely. Well Cardin, this is great. Appreciate the breakdown on everything related to Trac where things are moving forward, and just good to hear where you see things moving with the industry. [00:44:17] I think a lot of companies are trying to see where things sit and what you're building as a reminder that you don't have to pick between one, find a way to integrate it into your business model and potentially do both of them. So before we let you go, what's the best way for whether it's an artist, manager, or for anyone else that's listening that's in the space to follow along with what Trac is doing? [00:44:38] Cardin Campbell: They can go to Trac.co or go to our social, Trac.co I think everywhere. and follow along, you know, all the things we're talking about. You know, we're, gonna be doing a lot more on the content side as well to just to educate the artist and, you know, talk about the problems that exist and how we are the wedge or the solution for those problems. [00:44:55] So yeah, I think our website and our socials. Would be a great place to start. and then yeah, we can take it from there. [00:45:02] Dan Runcie: Good stuff. Cardin, thanks again, and it's always great to have a fellow Jamaican on too, so appreciate you [00:45:13] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. [00:45:34] Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.  In music, web3 hype may have cooled over the last year but there are still builders in the space making moves, like trac’s founder, Cardin Campbell. Trac is one of our sponsors for Trapital, and it was great to have Cardin on to discuss how music tech startups see the big picture and are approaching this. trac is a music distribution service, but it wants to bridge web2 and web3 together in a way most distribution services aren’t.


Cardin sees an opportunity to digitize how royalty payments are made without disrupting the Web2 experiences on Apple Music and Spotify. That can remain, while blockchain technology adds a layer to bring an artist’s superfans around for the journey.


In this episode, we discussed web3 music — what was overhyped, what has lasting value, and where things go from here. Here’s what you can expect: 


[2:57] Finding a wedge in web3 music 

[5:17] What people get wrong about web3 and ownership

[9:25] SEC challenges with NFT royalties  

[12:04] Most music fans don’t want to invest in artists

[15:31] Where web3 and web2 meet in music

[19:13] Building trac’s platform 

[21:37] Benefit of artists “windowing” music releases

[25:59] How trac sets itself apart

[32:15] Artists “moving on” after reaching success 

[34:54] What’s most exciting in web3 right now

[36:22] Biggest friction points to web3

[41:05] Projecting trac’s revenue mix between web2 and web3

[44:38] How to follow trac’s process



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Cardin Campbell, @iamcardin


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital


Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.



TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Cardin Campbell: Success means, you know, you as an artist can make a living doing your art, and whatever the national average is in terms of salary per year, we want every artist on track at that level to get to that level of freedom and beyond.

[00:00:17] yeah, we're building for that success story. and then some that's like the bare minimum for us. But yeah, we hope to create, you know, the next superstar. Not create, but we hope to help support the next superstar by giving them the tools to make the business side and, you know, management side of their catalog super easy.

[00:00:35] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more. Who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. 

[00:01:03] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is all about where Web two and Web three meet each other in the music industry. It has been a rollercoaster past couple of years in terms of NFTs Web three Crypto and how all of it makes sense for artists, musicians, record labels, and more to help make sense of where we are and where things are going.

[00:01:21] I sat down with Cardin Campbell, who is the founder of Trac is on a mission to empower artists to reach their fans more closely than ever, whether that's by distributing their music directly to the digital streaming providers or through NFTs so that their most passionate fans can get early access and a small ownership stake in their music moving forward.

[00:01:42] Trac is also one of sponsors, so it was great to be able to talk with them about their solutions more deeply and how they're serving artists. In this conversation. We also talked about some of the other challenges that happened with music distribution, such as when you have those superstar artists, how do you keep them on board?

[00:02:02] We also talked about broader trends in web three, where things are going, what some companies are getting right, wrong, and more really great conversation. I like the way Cardin sees things. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Cardin Campbell.

[00:02:17] Dan Runcie: 

[00:02:17] All right. Today we got a full conversation on deck. We're gonna talk about where Web two, when Web three, meet each other with someone that is living and breathing this every day, Cardin Campbell, founder of Trac. Welcome.

[00:02:29] Cardin Campbell: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Good to 

[00:02:30] be here.

[00:02:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. I feel like you and I have had a few conversations about this, and the industry's been in such a fascinating place right now. You look at the past year and a half with Web three, crypto NFTs. It's been a rollercoaster in terms of where the industry is, where people stand, where companies stand, and where they're focusing on.

[00:02:51] How do you feel like we are right now? What's your macro take on where the industry is right now with regards to web three?

[00:02:57] Cardin Campbell: I think the industry's in an interesting place. I think we're still trying to find that wedge of where web three or this concept of Web three, you know, aids music in any way. You know, I think a lot of people, are trying to think of it like this separate space and you know, this place where you can sell more of stuff and generate more revenue for the industry.

[00:03:19] And I think that can happen, but I don't think it's going to happen in a way that we've been approaching it to date, you know, but yeah, I think we're still trying to find out which ultimately is where we currently are.

[00:03:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think one of the challenges was that there were so many cool and nifty ideas that people had about what something could look like, but at the end of the day, you needed to have a real functional aspect that would add value in a way that you are either making something easier for the consumer or you are making it more unique in a way.

[00:03:49] And I feel like a lot of the things that are being pushed, were more focused on, oh, here's this cool, almost wonky idea of what something could look like as opposed to, boom, here's a fundamental shift change into how things were and how things could be moving forward.

[00:04:04] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. 

[00:04:05] Yeah. It's really like, you know, the classic case of entrepreneurship and startup, right? It's like you try to find a problem to solve and then solve that problem, whereas with web three, there's so many cool things you could do. And people were just like building cool things and then trying to find a problem, you know, later.

[00:04:24] Right. So I think that's why we're still trying to find our wedge in the whole space, but because it's just been a case of, "Oh, we can do this and do that and like, wouldn't this be nice?" You know, but not really centralizing, you know, the focus on problems to solve, right? And then solving them.

[00:04:39] Yeah.

[00:04:40] Dan Runcie: And as you look back on it yourself, as someone that's been following the industry to to a deep extent yourself, do you feel like there are parts where you yourself are like, huh, maybe I had overstated where I thought this was gonna go? Because I think that each of us probably bought into some of the height and potential to at least some extent.

[00:04:57] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, 

[00:04:57] so I still feel like we have, we've got it right to a degree, and I'll explain, right, so a lot of people approach Web three music in this like way of thinking of it like it's another medium, you know, for people to consume music, to buy it, like it's a collectible and I think that's the wrong approach.

[00:05:17] That's just my personal feeling. I've always thought that, and probably will always think that until I'm convinced otherwise, right? Because you can't really treat it like a new medium. When Spotify and Apple, you know, has the fan experience, you know, being the best it's ever been, like I feel like discovery has been solved, do you know what I mean? Like the algorithms and all the things that they provide to help you discover new music and just have access to all the songs, right? There is the best it's ever been. So companies that's been approaching it where they're thinking, oh, web three, we can generate NFTs out of songs and sell them.

[00:05:56] I don't know that that's it. like, I hope I'm wrong cause it feels like an opportunity, right? To generate more revenue for the industry but I don't think that that's it because we've seen iTunes come and go, right? they were selling a digital file that was the MP3 for a dollar and that was cool for its time.

[00:06:12] But then we shipped to streaming, they bought beats and turned into Apple Music and, right? Like it shifted. So I don't think that that's it. And I think that's where a lot, you know, the focus has been, and I think that's where people are getting it wrong. Because it's not, another, you know, medium, so to speak.

[00:06:29] Dan Runcie: That's a good point because I do think that part of the reason that streaming took off, and a lot of this was in conflict of what Steve Jobs himself thought. He of course, is one of the big proponents of iTunes, and I think for its time, iTunes especially, when did it launch 2003? I believe that was the answer at the time.

[00:06:48] You could buy your favorite song for 99 cents or a $1.29, whatever it was at the time. But after a while, consumers really didn't wanna do that. And I feel like one of the reasons why Spotify worked, granted, I know that the company has had its own ups and downs over the years, but one of the reasons why I think Spotify works is because it met consumers where they were at. People wanted to have access that at the time mattered more than ownership. So some of these things that are going back more to ownership, like whether it's companies or models that you're referencing, it brings us back to that. And it's not that people don't wanna own things.

[00:07:22] They clearly do. You see the boom of vinyls and other things. It's just not ownership in the way that we may have thought, or that some of these companies may have.

[00:07:31] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. And when you think about it from an ownership standpoint, like you don't technically own the MP3 when you bought it from iTunes, and when you're selling a .wav file or an MP3 as an NFT, which is the same thing, you don't technically own it, you're own like access to it. Like

[00:07:47] Dan Runcie: Your copy of it.

[00:07:48] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. Your copy of it. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, I just don't think that's the right approach. Now, I think the mistake people are making in Web three in particular is trying to mirror what we've seen happen with PFP NFTs, right? Like they, you know, collect them and it has this, you know, extreme high value from the doodles, you know, crypto punks and bored apes and all that, they're trying to mirror that. But fine art or the representation of art as NFTs in web three is a different thing than collecting music, right? Like you can't collect the mp3 like you, I mean, I guess you can, like we did with CDs and vinyl, but I think that's dead.

[00:08:30] and I think that's where we're trying to like force something to be what It's not, right? Music is valuable when millions of people listen to it and love it, whereas fine art, it's like a one of one thing and that's where the value comes from, you know, I think the more apples to apples comparison with music and fine art is the actual royalty now that's the product of music and then we have two of them.

[00:08:53] So music is just way more nuanced and more dynamic than fine art is. And I think, you know, those companies that are approaching it from the, let's collect the mp3 or the .wav file or sell it as this thing, you know, to consume it like another medium. I think that's all wrong. And like I said, I hope I'm wrong because I support anybody in the space trying to build a better tomorrow for music creators and the artists right, to make more money.

[00:09:18] but I just don't think that's necessary. I do think the royalty side is it, but the SEC makes it complicated.

[00:09:25] Dan Runcie: Let's talk more about this because when I think of the whole one of one thing, of course the physical example, you think about that Wutang album, the Once Upon a Time in Shaolin, that was essentially a one of one, and I know that that's traded hands a few different times more recently as last year, but I guess if we're thinking about it from your lens, you're saying that that isn't necessarily the product since obviously it can be copied and replicated in the same way that you and I could have a replica of the Mona Lisa, in our house, the real value is the actual recording itself, so you feel like the royalty, or at least that piece is the piece to focus on.

[00:10:02] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. That's where the value is. Like when we see all these companies buying catalog, you know, they're buying the royalties, right? Whether the publishing side or the masters, right? Like that's where the money is, that's where the value is, that's the asset, right? sure you can replicate that thing in the, you know, the Wutang example, and I think Nipsey Hussle mighta did something too at one point in time, selling his album for a thousand bucks.

[00:10:25] But that to me is a, a marketing thing. That's like a part of an album rollout. And if you have the cache like Wutang had and Nipsey had, you can do those things, right? But when you think about doing this at scale. Where every artist can, you know, benefit and, embrace this new model or approach, that's when it starts to break down.

[00:10:45] And that's when you know, it's like, that's not it, that's not the answer.

[00:10:48] Dan Runcie: You mentioned SEC part of it before. And I think we've seen a few different challenges from some companies that have tried to do creative things where fans could either buy a NFT or that could get them some fractional ownership of the music moving forward. And that what that actually looks like.

[00:11:05] There are companies such as SongVest and others that have gone through the securitization process. How do you view that aspect and how do you feel like that aspect of the ownership or what you may see on royalty exchange or one of those types of platforms. 

[00:11:20] Cardin Campbell: So, I think of it, in two ways. So I love it because fractionalizing, the actual asset is a beautiful thing, right? the SEC though, I think, I could be wrong, but I think from what I've been hearing and reading, the SEC thinks of it as a security. The minute it's fractionalized and then you have to go through the whole regulatory process and it just kills the flexibility you can have, it kills the scalability you can have with it If it's on the blockchain and it doesn't have to go to this regulatory, you can like BS. So that's one side, on the other side, you know, we now have a different audience that we're like selling these things too, because, the casual fan is not the audience as much as we think it is.

[00:12:04] Like there's a Venn diagram that exists, right? That says, yep, we have some fans that are investors, but truly who we're targeting our, we're talking about investors of music, people who value catalog and wants to own it. And yeah, that's just a different beast.

[00:12:18] And that's why we haven't seen it like really take off. Like we would think, in my opinion, because we haven't like really targeted the fans just yet. And find something that they would value just as much as the consumption of the music,

[00:12:32] Dan Runcie: So two questions for you on that. Let's start with the actual fans themselves and some of the misreading that I think people had on whether or not the average fan would wanna invest in or own a piece of a stake in the fan, the artist's music. Why do you think that there was an overstate or an over assumption of how much the fan would be interested in there?

[00:12:56] Cuz that was a pretty popular point for sometime

[00:12:59] Cardin Campbell: right. 

[00:13:00] I don't know. I think, you know, it sounds cool. It sounds like, oh wow. Like if you know, we have billions of people in the world that love music. I think the last time I checked, I think six plus billion people listen to music every day. So when you think about like the total accessible market, you're like, oh shit, that's a huge market.

[00:13:18] Cardin Campbell: And if we can fractionize this one asset and sell it to a bunch of people, And then they can sell it to amongst themselves. Your head explodes right at the the potential scale of this thing. but with the regulatory, you know, stuff and then the fact that fans aren't really investors, it's kind of like "womp womp", right?

[00:13:36] It's like that's when you realize it's like not as sexy as it sounds, in theory, on paper.

[00:13:41] Yeah, the analogy that I've always used with it is, I think if you look at the popularity of something like, Apple and the iPhone and all their products. So many people have the Apple phones themselves, but that doesn't mean that all those people necessarily have Apple stock in that way. There's a person that's gonna be the retail investor in Apple stock than the person that is still going to buy a MacBook, a iPhone, an iPad, and everything else that they have, AirPods, you name I think there was an overestimation there. And then I think additionally just with the psychology of how a fan thinks it interacts with music. I think sometimes this is part of the challenge with confusing things with sports because I think that people looked at the popularity of fantasy football and just gambling and how gambling has exploded.

[00:14:28] The monetization in sports in general, and I know that several music executives have asked me like, what could this look like? And I know that there's startups that have tried to do more of the fantasy sports for music, but. It's a different fan base and it's a different type of experience and product. And what a lot of these fans are into, at least from if they wanna have something beyond just the $9.99 per month that they pay for Spotify, they don't wanna collect a vinyl, they wanna have some piece of merch, they wanna go to a concert.

[00:14:58] They want things that don't necessarily always lead to actual like cash value that they could trade in, in the long term, but they want something that means something to them.

[00:15:09] Yeah, they want something that shows how much of a fan they are of that particular band or artist. And yeah, like, you know, in a nutshell, fans aren't investors, and investors and fans aren't gamers. Like, in the fantasy football example, like three different customer base right there, three different audience, three different personas. T here's a Venn diagram, like I said, but by and large, they're three different people.

[00:15:31] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And I think one of the other things too that you touched on earlier was just where web two and where web three meet each other because I think that a lot of the early web three excitement was around. People pointing out some of the challenges that exist for the digital streaming providers and the payouts that they give to artists, and seeing Web three as a solution to that to put more inherent value on music.

[00:15:54] Cardin Campbell: And I think a lot of those things sound good. But I do think that the more actual reality, as you've said both here and even in past conversations you've had is where the two of these meet each other. And from your perspective, what do you think the best approach is, or some of the best things you've seen look like where you do see Web two and Web three meet each other in music to actually provide value for fans?

[00:16:18] Right. So I guess let's define what Web three means by starting with Web one, right? So, the definition that I've used, you know, with people is web, one is read, web two is read, write, web three is read, write and own, right? And what I encourage people to do is not think of them as three separate spaces.

[00:16:40] They're actually a stack, a capability stack, let's call it, right? That, you know, you had one capability in web one. We can read things like a magazine, which is why it's called a webpage, cuz it's like a page of a magazine we read, right? As you know, the error we're in now where you can post things on social and leave comments and write all kinds of things on the web.

[00:17:02] and web three is read, write, own. I think it's just another capability that we now have, and I think stacking it in that way is where the value is. You still want to give people the experience and the, you know, the UX of web two, but the invisible, immutable experience that the blockchain also has and provides.

[00:17:24] Cardin Campbell: So I think when you think about web three music, the way we're approaching it is, yeah, let's give them user experience in web two, but let's also write their royalties and their ownership on the blockchain. So it's immutable, it's saved forever. No one, can take it away from them, which solves a problem that exists in the industry today. Because a lot of the industry still on pen and paper, it's not very digitized just yet. So I think Web Three gives us an opportunity to digitize the music industry in ways that we've never been able to do it before beyond just a PDF or whatever, right? It's like, yes, these are real assets. We can put them on the blockchain and keep them there.

[00:17:59] And I think, you know, if we think about it from that perspective, the blockchain and Web three music is more of a B2B play between the creators and the rights holders themselves. And it makes it really scalable to send, exchange and trade these royalties, in a space that is immutable and no one can change it.

[00:18:19] No one can, take it away. Cause we've heard Snoop say, you know, man, the first couple of albums at death row, I wrote, what's the publishing check? I never saw a publishing. I wrote 70% of the Chronic and I wrote, that would never happen in this new era with the way we're approaching web three music, it's like, hey, let's publish your work and write itinto the blockchain. You own it, it's in your wallet. No one can take it away, Right? And if, we can streamline that and make that a standard, I think we would solve a lot of problems. and then once everybody has their stuff in their wallet. Yeah, there can be a space where we, in web two, give them the ability to trade it with each other, sell it amongst each other, sell it to a hypnosis or whomever.

[00:19:04] But it's all immutable. that's my thoughts.

[00:19:07] Dan Runcie: And then with that, where are you right now at Trac with making that a reality for artists?

[00:19:13] Cardin Campbell: So, it's a reality already for us. Like we built the tech, right? It's now about getting the artists that have valuable assets to use it in a way that's meaningful, right? And the challenge is at what point do you make that right to the block chain? Is it in the studio at the creation process?

[00:19:34] I don't think so. Is it at the point of distribution, which is why we launched distribution, right? Because I believe that's where the cutoff is from the creative process to the business of music. So we're betting on that being the right space and right place for it. So yeah, we built the Tech Stack, we built the product.

[00:19:51] We're now going after the artist that can, you know, evangelize the solutions and, make it meaningful, basical.

[00:19:57] Dan Runcie: And then are there any artists that you can share or any examples from, oh yeah, this is an artist that's doing what we're envision 

[00:20:03] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, we have some, you know, up and coming artists that's like really, really growing. Like one artist on our platform, his name is MRG, he is like killing it. He started with us from the very beginning with barely no, you know, monthly Spotify listeners to now he has over 400 thousands. And we're, you know, we're in talks with, you know, major label artists that, that are no longer on major label deals that we want to use the platform and, you know, like, make this thing a reality. So it's really about like putting it together. Bringing it together, in a meaningful way. It would be nice if we can like, make this thing scale to all distributors, Right? 

[00:20:40] But the problem is, you know, it's also attached to payments, right? So we have to like really showcase this and make it, you know, big first. I think before we can like, yeah, like scale it to everybody else, but ultimately we would love to do that and be the central solution for it all.

[00:20:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I feel like with these things, especially in a space like distribution, one or two success stories with those normally help get the eyeballs and they see, oh, okay, this person did it. No different than any the headlines we see, you see what, whether it's the Chainsmokers or you see what BL or some of these other artists have done, and then that generates the attention there.

[00:21:17] Cardin Campbell: for sure. For sure.

[00:21:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And then thinking about that specifically, I know something else that you've touched on with this is just the idea of how artists can use windowing, specifically astatic, to be able to use both web two and web three, and being able to meet and serve their audience where they're at. How do you see that factoring in.

[00:21:37] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, so the reason why we thought of like doing it this way is, another problem to solve in the industry besides, you know, getting assets written to the blockchain so that they're immutable and people own their stuff and no one can take it from them. That's one thing.

[00:21:51] Another problem in the industry is that artists typically don't know who their fans are. they just don't, They're consumed so much by all the DSPs and even social platforms, but they don't really know who their fans are. and, and we've seen, you know, platforms like community and, you know, come, come up and, try to give, you know, artists, that ownership of their fan base.

[00:22:12] But so I think the way we're approaching it is if we can give an artist the opportunity to, give away an NFT to their fan base, like it's an early listen to an album or a single, so long as they pre-shave the song on Spotify and that pre save will unlock the NFT and give them access to listen to it early.

[00:22:33] That then gives us an opportunity to share that fan to the artist and build a community for them. And what I also do another benefit. It trains the Spotify algorithm to say, oh, we have a bunch of pre-safe, that means this song must be good, or this album must be good. It automatically gets added to the algorithm, the algorithmic playlist on Spotify.

[00:22:54] So it's like this nice, you know, recursive flywheel effect if we can, you know, apply that using NFTs. Right. you know, and you technically can do it without NFTs, but we feel like the NFT can then now have another lifebeyond that, so if the artist is doing a show somewhere and that person who did the precinct just show happened to be there and bought a ticket in that entity could be a backstage pass or something.

[00:23:18] So it just unlocks the opportunity, multiple different opportunities. the way we think about it, way we're gonna approach it. But yeah, windowing, is I think a necessary thing. we've seen the platforms try it without success. I think the success can be realized at the aggregator level because we're not dependent on any of them.

[00:23:37] Right? And the artists can, you know, own the fan and give them an experience that none of the individual DSPs can, you know? So that's kinda how we're thinking about, and.

[00:23:48] Dan Runcie: Speaking of windowing, you may have just saw the news that Snoop Dogg is re-releasing Death Row Records, but he's giving TikTok a one week exclusivity through their sound on service before putting it on streaming. And that was interesting because at least to my knowledge, I had yet to see an artist or at least you know, a former major label artist do anything like that.

[00:24:08] So 

[00:24:09] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, we've seen, you know, the Carters do it right with title, but I don't think it's been successful. Just, windowing at the platform level that is. but yeah, I've I haven't heard that, but that's interesting to see him do it.

[00:24:20] Dan Runcie: So with this, you're saying that, of course, this isn't at the platform level, but they're saying whatever digital student provider that you used, you can pre-shave this song. You get exclusive access to listen to it on the provider of your choice, whichever one that you're already subscribed to.

[00:24:35] Cardin Campbell: We're gonna give them a space to listen to it. At the artist level on Trac, on our platform. Like we spin up a page for them to listen outside of the platforms early. That's what the NFT gives you. It's like a token into that listening experience. And then once the release date hits, you get that notification from your stream platform of choice that, Hey, the release is here and you can go listen, you know, as much as you want.

[00:24:59] Dan Runcie: Got it. And as you all were thinking through it, even just, channeling back to the earlier part of this conversation when you were thinking through, okay, a lot of the NFT things didn't exactly work out in the same way. There seems to be some type of consumer disconnect in terms of what they may have valued and what they didn't.

[00:25:15] What was the value add for this one, this idea that was like, "yeah, you know what? I think a consumer would be interested in this particular type of NFT that we'd be offering here.

[00:25:25] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, the benefit is you know, for both the artists and the fan for the family, get to listen to the song or the album early and for the artist, they get that pre say, which trains the algorithm to, you know, add it to playlists in the future. so that's the benefit for both personas in this case.

[00:25:43] Dan Runcie: Got it. That makes sense. And then for you all specifically, I know I mentioned sound on earlier, there's a number of music distribution services out there, and you talked to different artists and I think a lot of them can sometimes feel like they can be a bit commoditized in terms of the roles that they have.

[00:25:59] Cardin Campbell: But how do you feel like Trac stands out in that regard? And what are some of the things you've done to help Trac stand out so it isn't seen as just another.

[00:26:07] Another. Yeah. So when we thought about the space music tech, we thought web three first, but we're like, we want to be in a position to help artists maximize their earning potential, so monetizationwas the central thing for us. And with that in mind, we thought another problem in the industry is, you know, the, payments and speed of payments.

[00:26:30] So when we launched the platform, we lost distribution. We said, why wait two, three months to get your money? We're gonna pay you out weekly. We saw it went viral for us. It was like, holy shit. Who would've thought that this would happen. But you know, when you think about entrepreneurship, like I said, when you're solving a problem, you know, it tends to go viral.

[00:26:49] So that's our differentiator. we want to be known as the platform that gets you your money fast. And with distribution, we unlock a bunch of other value around like, to where it feels like. we don't wanna be known as just a distributor, necessarily. So even though that's where we started, but yeah, we get you your money fast and we unlock value at the point of distribution is what we say.

[00:27:13] So the minute you, you know, release your music, we also take your cover art and put it on merch. We get you syncs, like it just unlocks value around without you having to do anything else. It's literally one action. Value creation

[00:27:27] is our value prop.

[00:27:29] Dan Runcie: and this is the value prop you're pushing to artists, artist managers specifically. He's definitely the target that you're trying to reach there. And how would you say that's been on the customer acquisition side? What does that look like for you and what are the most effective ways that Trac

 is used to be able to get artists and their managers on board?

[00:27:47] Cardin Campbell: So product-led growth is interesting, right? Because it's like it scales and you don't need a bunch of people to acquire people, just do some digital ads. People come the products, you know, converts them. Oh, happy day. While that's great. You don't typically, you know, at a high clip that is, find your target audience and you definitely have to then shift to more of a sales led approach to acquire that target audience. So we are building out, you know, a team of Biz dev folks there are as to go after our target audience with, you know, the value propositions we just talked about earlier to bring on, you know, folks we feel like is our core managers and artists at a certain caliber.

[00:28:32] Dan Runcie: Okay. And what is that caliber? How would you define that?

[00:28:35] Cardin Campbell: We define it as an artist with 250,000 monthly Spotify listeners. That's our core.

[00:28:40] Dan Runcie: Okay, nice. And then with that, is it also, I guess a vision in the artist's mind of, okay, if I'm at 250K now this is where I wanna get to, or this is where I can get to, like with Trac’s help.

[00:28:54] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. that's how we want to, you know, position the brand. It's like, Hey, when you're at this point, we want to get you to that next level, that next level being success for us. Well, firstly, I guess I gotta define what success means for us. Success means, you know, you as an artist can make a living doing your art, and whatever the national average is in terms of salary per year, we want every artist on Trac at that level to get to that level of freedom and beyond.

[00:29:25] yeah, we're building for that success story. and then some that's like the bare minimum for us. But yeah, we hope to create, you know, the next superstar. Not create, but we hope to help support the next superstar by giving them the tools to make the business side and, you know, management side of their catalog super easy.

[00:29:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and one of the benefits that I think I often see with distribution services that stand out is that there's so much discussion right now about independence, ownership, and artists wanting to have more rights that they can stay the course, and they can do that with the service that can grow with them.

[00:29:57] And I do think that after a while, The power laws do tend to take over to some extent where, of course I understand the goal is to make sure that everyone can reach at least some minimum viable level. But inevitably there will be a handful of stars that do end up having the outsize returns, hopefully, on a lot of these platforms.

[00:30:17] But then it also becomes the flip side of that challenge, which is keeping those people happy because they start getting offers from elsewhere about other things. How has that piece fit?

[00:30:27] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. So on one side, you know, people say, don't worry about it. Right? Like, there's nothing wrong with helping an artist, grow and then graduate, let's say, right? I don't want to think of that as like the standard or the norm. because I think, yeah, like, that feels like failure to me, right?

[00:30:49] Like if you support an artist and they get to a certain level and they go take a big check that feels like we didn't do our job well, of educating them on. why that may not be the best move. Right. like getting a big check doesn't really mean it's a success, right. So yeah.

[00:31:07] We're, we're, we're trying to find the right medium. is really me, like trying to find acceptance in, saying, yeah, you know what, it's okay if they move on to a label or, or, or somewhere else and take a big check. Yeah, I don't wanna accept that right now.

[00:31:20] I feel like we need to get them to a certain level and, and make sure that they are educated enough to stay there, you know, and that, that's not only education, but maybe helping them build a team that can support them, you know, as much as they need, you know, as they grow.

[00:31:35] Because that's really where I think the drop off is, it's like they feel like, oh, the label will do everything for me, but they don't realize your team outside the label is just as important, if not more important than the label themselves. You know? Cause we've seen a time and time again where you're forgotten, you know, even though you're a signed artist, like Frank Ocean is a perfect example, Right? So yeah, I think the market share is also shifting. So much so that, the role of the label will eventually change. That's my prediction and we're betting that we can establish a relationship with the labels that is different from the one that exists today.

[00:32:13] At least that's what I'm imagining will happen.

[00:32:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah, this is an interesting topic because I feel that on one hand, there is something to be said for, as you mentioned it yourself, artists moving on from one thing to the other. People are always switching things or sometimes people are trying things differently. They may go to something else like we've seen that a few with how artists may do deals with empire or label like that they do on album and then they choose to do something else on their own.

[00:32:39] And it's interesting because I do think that on a lot of the music distribution services, you do technically have the ability to earn as much as you want and continue to maintain ownership and move forward with all the things which is great. The other side, some of the checks that artists do get, and I'm not even saying I advocate for this, some of those checks, it's different when there's $50 million in front of you and that's what the label's giving you. It changes the conversation. 

[00:33:07] Cardin Campbell: sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. being, you know, a web three company like, and that that's possible in web three. We're hoping to do some things in defi that can challenge that, like, challenge that like greatly, you So yeah, like can't really talk about too much because it's not baked yet.

[00:33:24] But yeah, like we're planning to, you know, combat that somehow, you Um, yeah, I, cause I don't feel like graduating them to a, you know, a state or a place where the problem exists is, is the right thing, even though the check is, you know, is lovely, right? It's like, is, is it really lovely?

[00:33:42] You know? Yeah. I don't 

[00:33:44] Dan Runcie: And I guess with this, and of course I think we're talking qualitatively, but on a quantitative side, how does this impact churn or any of the more specific benchmarks that you may be evaluating things.

[00:33:56] Cardin Campbell: we, yeah, we, we we're not there in our maturity yet to really. Factor that Um, but it's an interesting question. Interesting mental model to, to, to play with for yeah, I mean it's, it's, it could be a good acquisition strategy to say, Hey, look, Trac got all these artists signed to all these major label labels.

[00:34:17] So we have like a big funnel of people coming in, but then a smaller funnel of people going out like, yeah, I don't know if that's, that's not the definition of success. . So I, I try not to like, embrace it too much, you know? Yeah. I, I, I, I really hope to solve the problems in the, in the music in, in, in, in every way.

[00:34:40] It's a, it's a tough, tall order, but I'm an entrepreneur. I can't help it.

[00:34:46] Dan Runcie: What excites you most about this space right now? I know we've talked about a number of things, but what excites you most? Right.

[00:34:54] Cardin Campbell: what excites me most is the digitization of the, the business of Um, the immutability of the, the, the assets and making payments,um, work at scale, right? Like, I think waiting two, three months is BS to me. Like it doesn't need to um, that long. I think with the blockchain and with money now being uh, on the.

[00:35:20] And trust being like almost solved on the internet with, with web three. I think there's so many opportunities there. So that's where my heart is and that's where we're trying to build, but it's just tough with regulations and tough with user adoption and, you know, all these complicated technologies and whatnot.

[00:35:39] So that's why we, you know, we think of the capability stack as I, as I talked about it. It's, it's, it's just another layer. We shouldn't be inundating. artists and fans and people with wallets and all these weird and wonderful things, like it should just be seamless. So yeah, that's where my heart is. That's what keeps me up at night.

[00:35:57] That's what, you know, brings me joy in thinking um, yeah, I, I, I can't wait for five years to roll off and we're like, oh shit. Cardin was right. Like, look at, look at what we built. You know, like, yeah. That's, that's what excites me.

[00:36:10] Dan Runcie: you talked about wallets and maybe some of the confusion that fans may have with things, and from that I can pull out some of the friction that has existed with. Web three experiences more broadly. 

[00:36:22] Can you speak about that piece of it? Cuz we haven't touched on that, but I do feel like that's been part of the barrier for some of the web three adoption as well in that the people that are web three enthusiasts, that was no barrier for them.

[00:36:33] They were already native, but some of that Venn diagram of who is a hardcore fan versus who is a web three enthusiast. Those things didn't necessarily always interact in the same way. If they did, then great, that's your demo. But I think that at least historically up until this point, a lot of the companies and a lot of the things they've been launching attracted more of the enthusiasts than they did some of the super fans.

[00:36:57] And I think the friction of the wallets and meta masks and some of those things that you needed to be able to fully tap in. Played a factor.

[00:37:07] Cardin Campbell: big, it's a big barrier of entry for the masses. Um, and I think, you know, over time the more investments that go into the infrastructure side of web three to make it more seamless. and, and like I said, a part of the, the value stack the, capability we're seamlessly, I think that's where the beauty is, which is why we built all of our web three stuff on Um, not only were they an investor, we, we believe in how they wanna approach it because it's the same, you know? I, I, I think about it in, in the same way. Yeah. Like, no one wants to have to go get this other tool just to interact with the internet, right? We've already invented the browser.

[00:37:47] That's it, right? Like, that should be the standard thing and it should just be Um, So yeah, that's how, that's how we think about it.

[00:37:54] Dan Runcie: It's interesting because I agree with you. I think it should be seamless. I've also heard this ongoing debate from a few other folks within the Web three community about, they feel like there's pushback on this notion of things that are in web three need to seem like they're less crypto or seem like they're less web three.

[00:38:11] And then that's how you get people bought in because of some of that stigma, and I don't think that the stigma necessarily was as much about the actual function as much as it was people, you know, kind of pointing and laughing at a hype. It's almost brings me back to the.com bubble in a lot of ways because yeah, people, some people may have laughed at the internet at the time and there were laughable things that people were trying to do like, you know, delivering ice cream cones to people and pets.com and stuff like that. But what we are now in is this world where everything relies on it. And I think that is the most bullish perspective on web three more broadly. And I do think that still exists and will exist. I think that we just had to get past a lot of that.

[00:38:56] And if anything, this post pandemic wave of things coming back to reality and the 97% drop in NFT volume that you'd seen from that Bloomberg report. That's all a sign that, okay, there's no more million dollar pet rocks. That was the wave, and we are now unto hopefully bringing the real businesses to come to fruition.

[00:39:18] Cardin Campbell: Yeah, we, gotta solve problems. that's the bottom line. We gotta solve problems. It's technology at the end of the day that we can use to do that, solve a problem,and you know, just as we don't think of companies as not being a web company like, you know, I think that's just what we gotta think of it as.

[00:39:38] Like, you're a web company, whether it's web one, two, or three, doesn't matter, like you're just, you are a company that embraces the internet, whether that's web three or web two. Like, I think that the technicals shouldn't matter. Like no one, you know, says, oh, you know, I went to amazon.com and ordered something and, you know, it was written to a no SQL DB and like no one cares. Like what's underneath is like irrelevant, you know? So that's how seamless it has to be, to really like break through, solve problems and give people immutability and, and trust and native currencies on the internet to make it like truly, truly seamless. We'll get there, you know, we just need to get through, like you said, this Pet Rocks movement and soft start solving some problems, which is what we're doing and what we're working on. it's a marathon, not a race, you know, not a sprint. So, yeah.

[00:40:29] Dan Runcie: Agree. I think we'll get there too. And would you think maybe more than the short term, let's look at in the next year from now, if things with what you're building with Trac play out the way that you think it will. If you look at the business model you have, where on the distribution side you do take a cut of any of the revenue that comes in from the songs that you distribute.

[00:40:46] And then I assume on the web three side of things, you would also take a small percentage of any of the transactions that come through on that side. Where do you project that your revenue mix will most likely come from when you compare the web two side of things, when you compare the web three side of things.

[00:41:05] Cardin Campbell: Yeah. Music has always been a transactional business, right? it's always been , you know, we add value here and, you know, we take a percentage of whatever revenue is generated from that relationship, you know, experience. So I think that's gonna always be the case. Even like when you look at companies like Shopify, on the surface, you might think, oh, there, there's a subscription, you know, business model.

[00:41:31] Yes it is, but 70% of their revenue is transaction, less than 30% actually is subscription. So I think that's gonna be the typical mix with any company in our space. Whether there's a subscription at, you know, attached to, you know, an artist's plan or whatever. and if we take a percentage, we just approach it differently than most where we take a percentage where we add-value.

[00:41:54] So, you know, back to what I was saying earlier, when we launched with Speedy payouts and get your money, you know, week after the stream happened versus two months, that's when we take a percentage versus some companies say, we're gonna take 20% just to deliver your song to Spotify. That's bullshit to me.

[00:42:09] You know? So, yeah, it's gonna be a mix of, you know, different, you know, streams of revenue, some subscription, because you need a pay wall just to make sure you're, dealing with serious people. That's the subscription side, but I think the majority of it's gonna be from the revenues generated from that relationship being established, and if we can add, you know, a little bit more service to our mix, to help an artist even grow even more, that's another example of adding value to why aren't you taking a percentage?

[00:42:38] But yeah, I think the transactional revenue's gonna be the lion share of where the revenue comes from.

[00:42:42] That's what I was 

[00:42:43] Dan Runcie: gonna ask about next because I know that if we take that Shopify example further, they have their white club or their white glove enterprise offering for the clients that they hope that they can keep, that don't go create their own website or create their own stack, right? And tie back to what we said earlier, that would be.

[00:43:00] I assume how you all would try to make sure you keep those superstar potential artists on Trac opposed to doing their thing.

[00:43:08] Yeah. Yeah. we we're building out a concierge team as we speak. we just hired a sales guide that, that can help those clients, those artists and artists teams, you know, achieve goals that they might have and really have a more intimate relationship with them. So one might say, oh, that's a label.

[00:43:25] Like we think of it like any other business that, you know, sells a software license that gives you an account manager. that's how we think of it. So it's like Salesforce, you pay them a million dollars for software, guess what? They're gonna make sure you have a success manager to make sure that you achieve your goals, that you can renew every year, every year.

[00:43:45] So that's kind of how we're approaching the business for that top tier in hopes that they don't go graduate as they say to some label. But if money is the carrot that pulls them away, like I said, we're hoping to solve some of that problem, with some defi Web three shit too, you know?

[00:44:00] And I think if that's what things come to, then those are good problems to have, as I always say.

[00:44:05] Yeah, absolutely. Good problems to have. Yeah. Definitely. Well Cardin, this is great. Appreciate the breakdown on everything related to Trac where things are moving forward, and just good to hear where you see things moving with the industry.

[00:44:17] I think a lot of companies are trying to see where things sit and what you're building as a reminder that you don't have to pick between one, find a way to integrate it into your business model and potentially do both of them. So before we let you go, what's the best way for whether it's an artist, manager, or for anyone else that's listening that's in the space to follow along with what Trac is doing?

[00:44:38] Cardin Campbell: They can go to Trac.co or go to our social, Trac.co I think everywhere. and follow along, you know, all the things we're talking about. You know, we're, gonna be doing a lot more on the content side as well to just to educate the artist and, you know, talk about the problems that exist and how we are the wedge or the solution for those problems.

[00:44:55] So yeah, I think our website and our socials. Would be a great place to start. and then yeah, we can take it from there.

[00:45:02] Dan Runcie: Good stuff. Cardin, thanks again, and it's always great to have a fellow Jamaican on too, so appreciate you

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[00:45:34] Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. 



]]> 2783 no Investing in New Music Startups (with Bob Moczydlowsky) https://www.trapital.com/podcast The Techstars Music accelerator just announced its 7th cohort. As the program’s Managing Director Bob Moczydlowsky told me on this episode, they don’t invest in music companies. They invest in companies solving problems for the global music business.  There are 10 companies that involve music in some way, including — education, web3, and even wedding celebrations.  Each startup gets a $120,000 check from Techstars and hands-on development for 90 days. Past portfolio companies include Community, Endel, and Splash among many others. According to Bob, the program has returned a 3X multiple on invested capital since starting in 2017. Companies that went through the accelerator have gone on to raise an additional $250 million in capital after the accelerator. Here’s what we hit on: [0:00] How the accelerator has evolved  [7:56] Investment areas that have underperformed  [9:02] Is there a ceiling on music innovation?  [12:38] Minor-league scouting, major-league swinging [17:07] Repeating motif of investments [18:11] 2023 accelerator cohort is “weirdest class ever” [28:49] The case for remote teams [31:44] The surge in capital from outside music industry [37:46] Music is less sensitive to macroeconomic conditions [40:39] Return on music accelerator vs. other Techstars programs  [43:32] Techstars LP’s becoming more experimental  [48:01] Hip-hop business mentors wanted Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Bob Moczydlowsky, @bobmoz This episode is brought to you by Amuse. Learn more about how its new program Music Insights can help your artist career: https://www.amuse.io/en/insights Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Bob Moczydlowsky: We have to invest in something that isn't fashionable but looks like it's before it's time, might even look a little crazy. And that's the where we can add a ton of value. And then it's our job to help to look back three years later and go, oh yeah, there it is but of course we saw that all along. [00:00:13] Like, same thing with generative media. We've been making generative media in investments since the very first year of the program and about half of them are really interesting, valuable companies now. And it took a long time for the red, the market to sort of catch up to that. and then, you know, ironically, my problem is as a small check investor just at the moment where I know that space really well and I can be really helpful and we have a good portfolio there and a community of people to connect new founders too. Now that the category is hot, we can’t afford it anymore. [00:01:07] Dan Runcie's Guest Intro: Today's guest is the one and only Bob Moczydlowsky, but if you're in the space in the industry, you probably know him as Bob Moz. He is the managing director of the Techstars Music Accelerator, and he recently announced the seventh cohort that they have for the accelerator, which includes a few companies here, let me just read the names here. [00:01:26] Baton Media, Beeper, Confetti, 5ive Mics, Haven, Highly Liquid, Homeroom, Obey Me, Royalty, and Seed. So Bob and I talked about what went into these companies, what are some common themes that went into this cohort and how this cohort has changed over time. This is now the seventh year that Bob has been running this accelerator. [00:01:48] So he's gone through the bull market of startup investing. The growth of streaming and how each of those things have impacted. So what are some of the trends that have been the most lucrative for him? How he's evaluated on his returns, how his LP mix has been shaped and shifted over time, and some general trends and some common misconceptions that people hear and think about when it comes to investing in music companies and companies that are trying to solve problems in music. [00:02:16] Great episode, especially for the founders, investors and builders out there. Hope you. [00:02:22] Dan Runcie: [00:02:22] All right. Today we have Bob Moz, who is the managing director for Techstars Music Accelerator. Bob, first time on the podcast. [00:02:31] Bob Moczydlowsky: Thank you very much for having me. I am a, longtime listener. I'm kind of thrilled to be a guest. It's very cool. [00:02:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think it's great to talk to you right now because you have the new cohort for Techstars Music Accelerator now, but you've actually been doing this now since 2017, and I think that. It's been interesting to just to see how much has changed in your role, but more broadly with music. You had this bull run, you had streamings rapid growth, and I'm sure with that, there's been so many different evolutions of how this cohort and how the companies have shaped over time. [00:03:06] What's been your read on that? How has the accelerator evolved over time? [00:03:11] Bob Moczydlowsky: Oh man, that is a gigantic question right out of the gate. so when we started the program in 2017, part of the thesis was. and it is still sort of the dirty secret of Techstars music. Like, we're not really here to invest in music companies or music tech startups. We're here to invest in startups that solve problems for the global music business. [00:03:31] So we wanted to be five to seven years ahead of, where new revenue streams would be. New audience interactions would be. we wanted to be really, really out there on ways kids could express themselves and, and or make new music or how rights holders would monetize that music and I would say that heading into our seventh class, like any, you know, venture fund, we made a bunch of mistakes. [00:03:54] we are happy to have some really valuable companies in the portfolio that are changing the way the music business works, like Splash and Endel, and community. And so the winds have come from the places we didn't expect, with maybe the exception of generative media. We can talk about that a a little more. [00:04:11] Bob Moczydlowsky: We were into that from the beginning and we've, remained into it though I can no longer afford any of those deals because that's kind of a popular category. So I think I'm kind of out of those deals now. But in general, like the wins came from places we didn't expect and the defeats came in places we thought were gonna be great spots, right? [00:04:28] So what we have learned is that you really have to focus on the quality of the team. You really have to focus on the opportunity and how that company can capture value in the market. And then you have to be patient, and just, and remember that one email, you know, with a yes on it. One phone call with a yes changes the fortunes of companies. [00:04:48] Pre-seed, seed stage, you know, one feature, one good, dev sprint, where you actually really, you know, solve a problem for your users, changes the trajectory of the whole company. So, I would say that we have, put ourselves in a position now where we ha like our thesis is defensible, our portfolio value is real, and we have an incredible list of people who have come through the program and touched it in some way that. [00:05:12] make a lot of really important decisions in the music business. So mostly it's just, I feel old when you say that, and I just feel super grateful that we get to do. [00:05:20] Dan Runcie: Well, you said a few things there that I wanna dive into about the wins and the losses being opposite from what you may have expected on either side, and I think that's a thing I've heard from other investors and VCs, but specifically with this accelerator, are there certain trends that stuck out for things that you thought would've been a big bet but didn't end up turning out? [00:05:43] Bob Moczydlowsky: Well, know, we were really excited about adaptive music and it's changing and matching your biometrics and pairing that with fitness that hasn't really come to fruition yet. . I'm optimistic it still might, but it hasn't so far. we were super optimistic that the using DSP streams to make mixes would allow, DJs to create and express themselves and create new content and repurpose music, and that wouldn't be considered a derivative work. [00:06:08] And you could give full credit stream back to the rights owner, and that would be a way to deepen engagement and maybe add a couple of bucks to the monthly subscription fee of a larger DSP. That hasn't happened really, you know what I mean? or come to fruition. it has taken longer, than we've expected for someone to make a hit song using generative media and AI, though, you know, it sort of perpetually feels like it's right around the corner. [00:06:33] but I think in that category, you know, I think we were just wrong people were gonna use generative media and AI to make songs. and instead they were going to use it to become artists and play games. and so we've learned a lot there where, what the thing we actually learned, and I say "we", but what I really mean is the splash team. [00:06:50] Bob Moczydlowsky: And Steven and Angus, I'm a passenger in that, right? So I say "we" a lot, but those guys do all the work. you know, what they realized was that kids don't wanna make songs. Like no kid is going out there looking for an AI to make a song. they're looking for an AI to help them do [00:07:05] several of the things that it require that are required to be an artist and grow a following and have people pay attention to you and express yourself. And they went and built a whole game around, okay, well then here's all the parts you need to DJ set. Here's the ability to perform in front of people. [00:07:20] Here's a framework under which those performances are judged. And that became a wildly popular game. And so it turns out that like in the gaming world, you might use an AI to control both sides of the copyright, to give the player the freedom to do whatever they want with the music. but you also need a venue and you need an avatar, and you need a crowd. [00:07:38] And there's a bunch of pieces where it's the song or the music is just one part of that. so that's been a massive, massive learning. and then the last one I would say, is that we continue to make investments around this and we will continue to do it, but the pace at. royalty flow and auto software automation for routing payments from consumption of music. [00:07:56] The rate at which that has changed and adapted to be automated and look, I'm not naive. I know there's a bunch of competing interests and reasons, you know a bunch of players who benefit from it being slow and manual. but I think that's an inevitable area that has to get automated over time, and it hasn't happened as fast as I would expect it to. [00:08:14] we we're kind of bumping up against the ceiling of growth for revenue from recorded music until we start automating those payouts and have better database ownership and better understanding of who owns what on a track. And the idea of like, you know, one publisher opting out or, securing their payment information to sort of give them leverage. [00:08:33] Bob Moczydlowsky: Like, yes, that optimizes price for any one license or copyright, but it doesn't, grow the, it doesn't swell the tide. And so I think we're hitting this point where if we really want astronomical growth, we're gonna have to start automating that process too. [00:08:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah. [00:08:48] Bob Moczydlowsky: I remain optimistic. I'll keep trying on that one, but I haven't yet, mined any gold there, [00:08:52] Dan Runcie: touching on something that I've heard other investors talk about too, where it does feel like there is this ceiling of how much innovation, how much growth can truly happen, and you hear that mostly about music tech specifically, just because some investors feel that. The incumbents just have so much power and control over the wake. [00:09:12] Things currently are done with the systems that, whether it's tams or astronomical growth can be somewhat limited compared to what you may see in other industries. [00:09:21] Bob Moczydlowsky: That's right. that's part of why I say we invest in companies solving problems for music and not music companies, is that it is a really complicated process to license music and use that. and so you think about the, act of primary listening or primary consumption, you know, some of the big platform companies use that as a loss leader. [00:09:37] You know, Spotify's a pure play streamer, but they had diversified into audio and it took them enormous scale to make that those economics work. those are great businesses. It's cool, you know, think of me as a minor league talent scout. I'm not, you know, my checks are small. I go to work to help make those companies valuable. [00:09:53] That's a level of the game that, I can't play, I don't have the kind of capital to make investments replace current big competing companies to Spotify. I'm better off make investing in companies that have an opportunity because of the way Spotify changes the landscape or the way Amazon changes the landscape. [00:10:09] Now all of a sudden there's a new opportunity because people's consumption habits are different. That's where I'm gonna invest. I'm not gonna invest in the primary piece. And then the secondary part of that is like a lot of the way music copyright works, and we could talk about this as you dig into web three stuff if you want to. [00:10:25] but a lot of that stuff is coded in the law and it's coded in the law across multiple territories around the world. You can't just disrupt the way payments work for music. That's not how it works. . Like there are rules and laws that make that stuff be what it is. and so in some cases the, those laws are holding back growth for the rights holders and in some cases they're protecting value for them. [00:10:45] and startups that pretend that, that's not true, like they're kind of lying to themselves, you know, and they're, there's a couple of those every year. I wish someone would write a really definitive blog post about how to stay out of that. it is what it is. like that's not our domain. [00:10:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think too, just thinking about, you mentioned something as well, just in terms of you being in the minor league position, that's not your job necessarily to make the swings for the majors, but I also have to imagine too that whether it's you or even some of your LPs, would love to be able to double down and invest some of the prorata that you may have in some of these follow on rounds. [00:11:20] Bob Moczydlowsky: Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, my job is to swing for the majors, right? but my job is to find a company that could be a billion dollar company where, you know, a couple a hundred grand and the support of the program and mentorship can put it on a path to succeed. Like if a company needs 10 million dollars to start, I just don't have that kind of capital. [00:11:40] I'm not the right profile of investor for that company. So it's not that I'm not trying to get gigantic companies, right? Like when we wrote the first check in to Endel people thought we were crazy. They were like, what are you doing? How is the personalized soundscape for helping you focus, relax, or go to sleep? [00:11:55] How is that gonna be a billion dollar company? And now you're in a situation where there's, you know, millions of dollars in annual revenue, hundreds of thousands of subscribers, interesting revenue coming out of the DSPs. Incredible partnerships with artists. No one at this point now in music, would argue that functional music is going to be eight to 10, maybe 12% of total consumption of music. [00:12:20] And that Endel isn't the premium brand and the most valuable company in that space, that's sort of a foregone conclusion. That wasn't the case when we wrote that check. That's what I mean about sort of minor league, right? It's like, it's not that the companies aren't major league companies, of course they are. [00:12:37] It's just that we have to invest in something that isn't fashionable but looks like it's before it's time, might even look a little crazy. And that's the where we can add a ton of value. And then it's our job to help to look back three years later and go, oh yeah, there it is but of course we saw that all along. [00:12:52] Like, same thing with generative media. We've been making generative media in investments since the very first year of the program and about half of them are really interesting, valuable companies now. And it took a long time for the red, the market to sort of catch up to that. and then, you know, ironically, my problem is as a small check investor just at the moment where I know that space really well and I can be really helpful and we have a good portfolio there and a community of people to connect new founders too. [00:13:19] Now that category is hot and we can't afford those deals anymore. [00:13:23] Dan Runcie: And I'm sure. [00:13:24] Bob Moczydlowsky: so that's what I mean, like it's not that we're trying to have small companies, we're trying to have [00:13:27] Dan Runcie: Right. No, that makes sense. And I would imagine too, Whether it's your investors or others, they would love for you to be able to, oh, could you still get in these deals? Or could you still be able to do the follow on investments in whether it's an end or, or some of the generative companies? [00:13:42] Bob Moczydlowsky: That's right. so the companies that have come through our program in total have gone out and raised another additional 250 million dollars after taking our initial capital, Right? so the capital we've deployed through the program is now, let me see, 7.4 million dollars after this current class. [00:13:58] It'll be 7.4 million of, checks all sort of at that 120K, you know, Techstars, accelerator deal. You know, like they're all the same. All of our deployments are Post program now 250 million plus, it's like 254 million, something like that. And change has come into those companies after the program, of which about 16 million of it has come from the member companies. [00:14:20] So that's Sony Warner's, Peloton, Hyde, Concord Monarch, Quality Control, Right hand, Bill Silva. All of those companies sort of collectively have put another 16 million dollars in post program, into those companies. So they're, active strategic investors and angel investors into those companies. the number I don't have that I should to tell you, is like also the individual, the number, the numbers, right? [00:14:44] So executives from those companies as angels, or, executives or mentors who are not from the members, but are just independent and come and visit and help in the program. They also write, you know, 25K, 50K, 100K angel checks into companies. That number's a little harder for us to capture. cuz it's sort of personal money and not, corporate money, but, everybody around the program is definitely taking prorata and in, participating in those rounds as the companies grow grow for sure [00:15:07] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I feel like those examples hit at the flip side of that earlier question of, at the time people probably didn't think that those were the areas that may have lined up with the initial thesis on paper, but they ended up being some of the most successful ones you had. [00:15:23] Bob Moczydlowsky: it is a continuing, like delightful and hilarious, like repeating, you know, motif through the whole program. Right. no one liked Splash when it came in. It was called Pop Gun at the time. No one liked that, right? That's a 70 million dollar company now and the number one music related Roblox game. [00:15:40] The company shimmer came in and was sort of like stuck mid-C ground, had a huge pivot and became community, right? That was, who could have predicted that? Endel, everybody hated, didn't believe it was real. Hey, these crazy Russian guys. This isn't science back. this doesn't work. [00:15:55] This is the placebo effect. you , know, that's a 75 million dollar company. even just recently, like last year as recently as last year, having all of this history in the program, we get all the members together to screen new companies coming in and decide who we're gonna invest in. [00:16:07] last December, the lowest ranked company in that screening was Circle Labs. Run by Anushk Mittal makes sentient NPCs sort of, and chat bot, right? A year ahead of chatGPT a year ahead of, in world, right? In those companies trying to like personalities into video game characters. you know, and during the program he went from sort of like two or 3000 users to 25,000 users. [00:16:31] Bob Moczydlowsky: By the end of the summer he had 40,000 users. They're making these creators, you know, they're making these characters independent creators are, they're in multiple Discord servers. They're chatting with people all day. They have Twitter accounts, that becomes a competitive round, that light speed leads last fall, no one thought that was a company. [00:16:48] Everybody thought that was crazy, not gonna be a thing. Now that's a, you know, $20 million plus company just you know, less than a year later, right? So it just is a thing that like can keeps repeating and repeating over time. and the reminder to us as investors and, especially at this pre-seed stage is it's okay if it's wild, right? [00:17:08] There are gonna be things that are wild that are gonna fail, but only the wild different ones have a chance to actually move into that open space in that green field and be a huge company from seemingly nowhere, right? And that's our job. Our job is to experiment with that stuff and bring the whole music business around, in an ecosystem to participate and argue about it and be wrong together and disagree. [00:17:29] And, you know, it's sort of my job to provide that safe space for those conversations to. [00:17:34] Dan Runcie: Right, and I feel like you've talked about this a little bit, and even in past conversations about how the definition of a Techstars Accelerator company, or Techstars Music Company is part of that. It continues to evolve as you've seen different cohorts, but at least for this current cohort right now, you have a few, three companies in here. [00:17:56] You have a few music companies, even one involved with wedding celebrations as well. [00:18:01] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah, we do. It's the weirdest class ever, in the best way. Like I'm actually really curious. So you've seen it almost before anybody else has. and you know, it'll be public by the time people are hearing this podcast, but it's not public right now. Like, where do you wanna start? [00:18:15] Like, it's an interesting list. there's probably a couple companies on there you've heard of before and seen, , I'm actually like, I'm happy to talk about any of them and I'm just as fascinated and curious to hear where you wanna start and what you, saw when [00:18:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So we gotta start with Confetti. We gotta start with the wedding planning there and looking at the website, this wasn't a company that was on my radar before, but that's why I love stuff like this. You know, you're able to have unique access to things and it points out, and for me it stuck out. [00:18:43] There's an experiential aspect. We all know how many people would love to be able to see and attend and experienced weddings and can't normally do so, but they're integrating brands. They're integrating music and culture in different ways and I think that's a unique thing. And yes, of course you could always throw a Zoom link. [00:19:02] I've attended Zoom weddings before, especially during the pandemic, but I think there's something different here. And that one, let's start there. That one stuck out to me. [00:19:10] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah. It's the most polarizing company, within our sort of internal community coming into the program. Andrew, the CEO knows this, like you've mentioned all the things like people wanna attend remotely. People might watch and buy a ticket to an influencer wedding. As weird as that sounds like it's totally believable thing that could happen. [00:19:26] but I also think like there are, ways to organize media and everybody's at these events with a phone in their hand the entire time. like, you know, you're dressed up, you're in your suit, you're in your cocktail dress, whatever it. The only thing you need besides yourself and a fancy outfit at a wedding is your phone. [00:19:42] Bob Moczydlowsky: You're taking pictures, you're making video, you're sharing things. So the concept of can we provide and experience people who are not there, can we generate and organize content with people who are there? Can we do virtual gifting and tipping or challenges and organize some of that stuff, especially as that pertains to the big moments in a wedding, which also, let's be honest, revolve around music in a lot of ways. [00:20:04] I mean, it's very few weddings you've been to that don't involve music in as a core key ingredient in different places. this is a thing where there's enormous number of these events that happen over time. There's enormous potential in organizing this already existing behavior. and this is a good, it's a good hack as a venture investor if the behavior already exists and the company is gonna capture value by organizing it. [00:20:27] that's a good opportunity as opposed to like, oh, we have to create some behavior and convince people to do this action. We have to change the user behavior before the company works. Those are companies that just have a much steeper hill to climb. And so this company comes to us with some traction. [00:20:43] They've done some influencer weddings, they've got kind of a cool philosophy around it. We're gonna run a bunch of experiments and see if we can turn this into a [00:20:50] Dan Runcie: So what does the business model look like [00:20:52] Bob Moczydlowsky: for them? [00:20:52] Come along for the ride, like, if right now it is a share of ticketing for the influencer stuff, right? [00:20:57] and that's kind of marketing if you think about it. Like how do I get people comfortable with, how do I participate in a wedding remotely? but we actually think the much larger opportunity is just in people moving cash around during the wedding, gifting, buying things for each other, participating or having the account to organize the media. [00:21:14] So there's several different revenue streams inside of that, and we're gonna experiment with like, what makes people happiest and they'll do sort of at volume. but right now the virtual gifting thing is a real thing. And it's easy [00:21:24] Bob Moczydlowsky: for a bunch of [00:21:25] people. Like, you don't have to bring the gift with you. [00:21:27] you know, you're not just sending, like, who wants to just buy something off an Amazon registry link that's boring. Like, let's instead, you know, put a bunch of money on at the moment and, you know, run up a cool tab for people to go have a good honeymoon with during the reception itself. Totally believable. [00:21:41] Dan Runcie: No, I think there's something there, especially even with brand opportunities too. Just think about the number of brands that want exposure. Think about anytime you see a wedding and even just a way to like share that information in a way that's more clear. I know friends get weddings, literally, they'll reshare the Instagram story of every friend that was at the wedding, and it's like, all right, you know, happy for your nuptials and everything, but I'm not gonna sit here and tap through a hundred Instagram stories. Like, no, I'm not gonna do it. But if there's some type of interesting thing that's somewhat in between some, you know, $10,000 videographer, you know, montage that they put together and something that could be done here, I think there's something cool to be able to potentially tap into there. [00:22:21] So excited for that one. The other one, come meet them. [00:22:25] Dan Runcie: I know. Yeah. The other one that stuck out to me is Five Mics. So Ace Patterson, "Call Me Ace". He's been a guest on this podcast before. Him and I are friends, and I remember him telling me about this startup that he is playing as a while, and I think that he has, interesting landscape into the industry from both his work in consulting, working in big tech, working at YouTube. [00:22:49] So he understands how that piece of it works, but then he's an artist himself, so just tapping into the collectibles opportunity, and I feel like so many people have been talking about that hip hop gaming collectible intersection, so I feel like there's something there. [00:23:03] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah, I mean, well, so we should tell people what it is, so anybody listening, the picture is very simple. Imagine a card game like Magic: The Gathering or horror stone that is started around hip hop. And so instead of playing my or versus your Wizard, I'm playing Snoop versus, you know, Chief Keith, I don't know, like I don't know if it requires name and likeness. [00:23:21] I don't know. Like the whole thing could happen. It could be Snoop Lion versus Murder Was The Case, Snoop, right? There's a bunch of different ways you could think about the organization of the characters. They could even be. Made up characters just in a fantasy hip hop world, if you don't, you know, need name and likeness, right? [00:23:36] but the concept of those cards as digital collectibles, not physical printed things, you can store them, right? You can tokenize them, you can play them back and forth. if that game is fun and can entertain you, that's a real opportunity in a very cool and interesting way. And so I think, you know, I think Ace and Adam, are really talented guys who needed a shot, they needed shelter to actually like get this idea off the whiteboard and into practical reality. [00:24:01] Bob Moczydlowsky: And part of the reason our program exists is to take really talented people who need that and need a little capital and need a little shelter to really like, feel like they gave that thing the full effort it deserves. and that's an idea that deserves real effort. Like that's a great concept. And if done correctly, I think we all could believe that could be played by millions of kids around the world. [00:24:21] No problem. [00:24:21] Dan Runcie: The other companies that stuck out to me from the list, there was a large focus I felt on community. There were a number of the startups that are either tapping into it, in some way, trying to bring music fans together, bring collaboration with other folks together. [00:24:32] Bob Moczydlowsky: A hundred percent a theme for this year's process. Yep. Like very intentional. we talked a lot about what's happening around our own behavior, and the way we are all kind of interacting with each other. And it's like, I don't know if I need to have millions of followers. [00:24:46] Like that's not a community. I need to have, you know, hundreds of people or thousands of people that are really like-minded that really teach me things and move me together. And, and so, the future being a massive niches is a thing we've all been talking about for a very long time. [00:24:59] And there's a lot of evidence happening right now that these things are starting to become really lucrative, really valuable to people, and are becoming places rather than just online destinations. so we got a couple of companies that, touch this sphere, One called Homeroom, founder named RJ Ruggles. [00:25:15] the Lazy investor way to describe this company is it's Google Analytics for your online communities. it's the, console you use to monitor Discord, Slack, other community-based environments where your community manager has to report metrics back to the business. Are we getting people out of the community into the transactional purchase funnel? [00:25:33] Bob Moczydlowsky: Do we have people leaving the community because the commentary is toxic they're getting harassed? How do we monitor and what are the standard metrics by which we operate as community managers, like that's pretty loosely defined these days. and we think we can build a piece of software that defines that for people and then also helps them do better at it. [00:25:51] and then in that same world, there's a company called Highly Liquid, run by Izzy Howell. If you imagine if you build a new fashion brand, and the buzzword of the day is a fi digital brand, right? Where you have digital and physical products. [00:26:03] Bob Moczydlowsky: You have physical experiences, online community. So if you took a company like Supreme and we're gonna start at today, not everything would be skate decks and t-shirts. but you'd have collaborations. You would have some products in person and in her mind, Highly Liquid is targeted at women who care about online and tech communities, her first, product drop is actually a pair of panties. It's like a lingerie product. The second product will be in a totally different sort of category. but the idea that there's sort of a, what's the company, mischief. [00:26:32] She references a lot that does like crazy online campaigns with artists and gets, like, creates trouble online and gets people to follow. If you combine that with sort of an ongoing community that was about female empowerment, about being active online in a, cool community, had a little bit of your favorite R-rated sex comedy jokes and attitude about it, that's a really interesting brand. [00:26:51] That could exist in lots of different channels. and so we're excited about that and you could see how a company like that would need a company like Homeroom, as part of its core, you know, control center for running the, business. Right. on the other side of that is this company, Seed,the founders come out of a small town in Puerto Rico. [00:27:07] They're living in Florida now. They've built an online music community slash school for learning about the music business. Entirely in Spanish and targeted exclusively to Spanish speaking markets. So they're not trying to like have multiple languages and everything's in English, like very specifically Spanish language, Spanish language contracts, dynamics and explaining the way the business works from the perspective of someone who sees Bad Bunny or sees Shakira and aspires to be in that world. [00:27:37] and that company is doing gangbusters business already. and could be, I think the definitive brand for how music business expands in Spanish speaking, territories, right? Again, driven by a combination of school and curriculum, but also community and professional development, and a place where you can go and talk to people and develop your career and make like sort of lifelong contacts. [00:28:00] Bob Moczydlowsky: As opposed to something like LinkedIn where it's like, oh, everybody's on LinkedIn. So there's not really any real community there, right? yes, you need that because you need the publicly available place where you're, you could be found professionally, but in your industry, in your category, in your specific vertical, you need much more interaction. [00:28:16] So, we're headed that way with sort of, with some of those companies. So I'm glad you noticed like this. It's not an accident that all that stuff's [00:28:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I'm sure too with this cohort, this is a hybrid cohort. With that, we're talking a little bit before we record it, but you're gonna have a week in la, you'll have a week in Atlanta. There'll be a lot of remote time, and I think that reflects a lot of the trends we've seen over. The past few years, and even how Techstars has run, because you started out where the teams were all in LA, at least for the duration, working outta the office during the pandemic. [00:28:49] Everything's remote. Now it's hybrid, which I think does reflect a lot of this that we've seen. and I know that the focus of teams and the people that are building these is so important, especially in early stage startups. How is your evaluation of teams? And that piece of it evolved with knowing that even the startups themselves may not be directly working in the same place. [00:29:11] Like the founders themselves may not be directly in the same location. [00:29:14] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah, I think the idea that you have to run your startup in a specific room with everybody all together, or you have to be in a specific geography like, the trend was that that wasn't true pre covid, but Covid just wiped it off the, board. You know, like we, we've had companies in the past, like investor, like go to see investors and the investors is like, oh, like everything about this deal except that your company's located in Europe or your company's located in Australia or whatever, so we're gonna pass because of your location. [00:29:44] I haven't heard that in years, you know what I mean? Like we're in a new world now where people can be multiple places at once in a really weird but true way. Like, one of the teams coming in, Baton is working on organizing all of the pre-release, like work in progress music. [00:29:59] And their teams are all over the place. They've got guys in, they have a guy in Dubai, they've got a team in Italy, they've got Americans, they have people in New York, they're gonna be with us here in LA. We have a team, working on online virtual nightclubs, specifically targeting African teens. [00:30:15] They're based in South Africa and London. They're gonna be with us in LA and New York and probably raise capital in the US and build a product targeted towards, you know, teens in Africa. So the idea that these things are geographically focused, or your thesis could be geographically focused, I think is actually a detriment if you're operating that way. [00:30:32] and so we've resort of rearranged the way the program works to try to add a maximum amount of value for Serendipity. Be together in the office, talk about hard things, have accountability, do an all hands, meet each other, share contacts, and then break apart and go back remote and focus on shipping product. [00:30:50] Bob Moczydlowsky: And you can do really great mentor meetings in, you know, 20, 30 minute sessions via Zoom and get access to amazing people because they don't have to come to the office to have that meeting. and so if as long as you're balancing the hard conversations and the development and the team organization in those in-person weeks. [00:31:08] And then you're breaking apart to go actually focus and accomplish stuff. I think you end up with the best of both worlds. So we've always had an international program by thesis design. Half our investments are outside of the United States because we think that's where most of the future revenue opportunities are and growth is gonna be. [00:31:25] So the hybrid model just makes this whole thing, you know, easier for us and allows us to actually, you know, have European portfolio companies that are just as important to us and accessible to us as Americans. [00:31:36] Dan Runcie: Definitely, especially in this industry, with any company that's trying to improve problems for music, it's most likely gonna come from places outside of the us so that makes a lot of sense. The other shift that I've seen over the past couple years, especially in music, is the increasing amount of non-music or non-music people that have a big checks or they're trying to get involved in some way, usually at later stage rounds. [00:32:03] And in your case, those could be the folks that are marking up some of your companies that you've already made investments in, do you feel like that has shifted what the success likelihood or the type of companies that may get follow on investing in that, that you're then looking at your end of obviously trying to fund those companies out to be most likely to exit and how that may have shifted the portfolio companies or just the likelihood of success one way or another for companies solving problems in. [00:32:32] Bob Moczydlowsky: Hmm. Yeah, I would say it's like, so it kind of depends like, the companies that are related to music, there are a lot of people coming into music who have bought catalog or who have, who have bought music related assets, who now wanna help further that ecosystem. and we have a company in this year coming into this year's class called Royalty that's working on, like, the analogy I would use for that company is, a company that was very boring, that wasn't very sexy, called Athena Health that automated the medical billing process. [00:32:58] Like it was too hard for doctor's offices and clinics to submit their procedures to the insurance company. Insurance company reject it cuz it didn't have some special code on it. They have to go refile it and try to get paid to qualify. Right. That model looks a lot like, royalty registration and making sure you're collecting money from copyright assets around the world. [00:33:16] And so you see people funding companies like that and like entertainment intelligence, although I guess entertainment intelligence in the program a couple years ago. We sort of co-own that as a program with Concord and secretly Canadian, and it's used by Monarch and secretly, and Hopeless Records and a bunch of other folks, to do data warehousing and trend analysis, right? It's the ability to watch what's happening to your streaming data and then react to tiny signals in that data. So, for example, you have a catalog track that you haven't done primary marketing on or 15 years starts to get a little traction on TikTok. You now need to call your rep the DSP and get that thing onto a playlist or you need to call your music supervisors and get that in somewhere, right? And so investment and capital and growth is happening for those companies. and they're so like that's the kind of company that the person who's coming to music because they bought some assets or they've had extra cash and they're developing, those are the kind of companies that we're seeing that kind of investment going to. [00:34:15] and like I'm really excited about royalty this year because of that opportunity, right? There are people now who have gone and purchased these assets, who now need the way the music business operates to become more efficient and more streamlined so that they can get growth that justifies the multiple they paid for that catalog. [00:34:30] Bob Moczydlowsky: If you bought a catalog at 20 x annual revenue, you need to make sure you're collecting every penny that's due to you, and you need to work on streamlining the way the business works to get more money in the future, right? So you get a faster payoff and better ROI on your deals. The companies that are most valuable for us, however, I still have to cajole, convince, arm twist network with, you know, grade A venture investors and show them those deals. [00:34:56] And I almost have to leave out the fact that we operate in and around music on those deals, right? Like when Splash goes to COSLA or Endell goes to, true or, gogogo comics goes to BitCraft or Circle Labs goes to light speed music isn't part of the conversation at all in those cases. And we still have a stigma of music as a category is a smaller, not as interesting place to play for those investors and instead of convincing them that they're wrong and they should look, I have found that the way to be effective is just to show them the opportunity uniquely to that one company and let them judge that and forget how it relates to music altogether. [00:35:38] Dan Runcie: That first point you mentioned I think is really interesting because if you're a company that has purchased a catalog, it would also be in your interest to make sure that those payments are being processed as efficiently as they should, or any other type of financial activity that could benefit your asset that you just spent 50, 60, a hundred million on could be even more beneficial. [00:35:59] So that piece, it made sense. And I think too, even the comparison to like Athena Health, right? How can you make a comp to some other industry where this thing did this and helped push things moving forward. I could definitely see that. I would like to imagine that the music conversation, maybe it would eventually shift at some point. [00:36:17] I know that we often hear the comparison to gaming and how gaming's revenue continues to increase and I know a very different business model different in a lot of ways. So I still think that the big tams are out there, and I think because given. There's been so much investment activity, even from the major record labels or some of the indies. [00:36:36] I know some of them are investors in your accelerator, or they have made big investments themselves or big bets like they want to be able to increase the overall pie. Just think that there's so much that is inherent with the complexity of the business and just some of the. Information that can be held tight, that can make some of it be a bit challenging. [00:36:56] But if you do have that combination of someone that knows the space, someone that's willing to find efficiencies where it can be, I still think that there is big opportunity. [00:37:06] Bob Moczydlowsky: I agree. Like If anything, there are more deals that I would like to do that I can't do. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like I'm like, oh, I didn't have enough deals to do. I think the next couple of years, there will be less cash. There will be less capital in the market. [00:37:19] which will be good because there was sort of too much and prices were too high and there was too many and it was hard to sift through which founders are real and which ones weren't. but in these next couple of years, there is unbelievable opportunity based on sort of like the inertia of where the business is headed and whatever impact we get of macroeconomic downturn is gonna hit music less than it's gonna hit a bunch of other categories. [00:37:42] And so the concept of music driving culture and culture driving everything else, and things starting in around music, and music, being willing to find these other revenue streams. music was at the forefront of the direct-to-consumer online shopping revolution. Music was at the beginning of the, how do I become, an entity that can have multiple brands and collaborations and have new consumer products driven by fandom. [00:38:03] Music has been at the forefront of these movements over and over and over again, and the company doesn't have to position itself as a music company to benefit from working in and around music, right? Like that's the way we think about it. And I just think that's gonna be more and more true over the next several years. [00:38:18] It's just gonna be, and the things that people wanna do in and around music, like go to events and go have experiences with their friends outside. are going to become even stronger. That demand is really high now, and we have a bunch of tools and platforms that allow people to do that at scale. [00:38:37] That was never possible before, right? Like this company coming into this year's class, I think it's the last one maybe we haven't talked about. Haven, they have multiple brands, one called Floating and one called Ambient Church. Where they put on events that don't have artists on the top. They have sort of experience like, we're gonna go to the park and there's gonna be a sound bath, and we're going to like 40 people, no alcohol Sunday afternoon out in nature. [00:39:00] Connect with each other, talk to each other, be mindful and relax and like de-stress from our overly technical scheduled lives. That company, you know, sold tens of thousands of tickets last year across their two brands. And they're connecting everybody with, you know, SMS community and membership belonging to a community that furthers those brands and those events. [00:39:22] But the event itself is like unplugged, disconnected, like that's the level we're at now where the tools allow you to have sort of music style experiences that don't necessarily involve the legacy music business at all. There's no promoter there. There's no primary ticketer, you know, there's no tour merch, there's no back production company. [00:39:43] There's not a huge rig and a negotiation like there's none of that stuff. It's just humans agreeing to go do something and enjoy some music and sound out in nature. But everything around it makes like you can have the entire rest of the company that looks like a really awesome modern promoter company because you can scale it horizontally into multiple cities. [00:40:03] Through community, right? So these are the things where everybody says there's no more green space in and around music. It's a low limited category, there aren't big, huge opportunities for these companies to have a hundred, 200 million in annual revenue, a billion dollars in annual revenue. [00:40:18] I just kind of chuckle cuz it's like the perfect, you know, like it's the perfect great garden bed to plant these seeds in. Like yes, they grow up to be trees in other forests, but they start there. [00:40:28] Dan Runcie: And when you hear that pushback, do you have like stats that you can show or anything that like I'd be curious to hear what does the Techstar Music Accelerator returns or success look like compared to maybe other Techstar non-music accelerators like we. [00:40:43] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah, so some of that's pretty proprietary. couple of the stats I'll give you just because I'd like you and I'll probably get in trouble, but it'll be okay. So our multiple on invested capital from the accelerator is a little over three. And, you know, we've deployed, like I said, that 7.4, you can do the math on that about what our positions are worth in those companies. [00:41:02] The reason that is true is because, you know, the way an accelerator works is you, you know, there's gonna be a power law, right? You're gonna put 10 companies in, you're gonna work on them together. They're not all gonna end up being equal, but the things you learn from the ones that fail are gonna help you make better decisions on the next batch. [00:41:19] Bob Moczydlowsky: And, so, you know, the last couple of years the market has been so, frothy, right? There's been so much cash looking for assets to the price of assets just went way up, right? Interest rates were effectively zero. If you had cash, you had to do something with it to get a return. You couldn't just put it away and get 3, 4, 5, 6% on it. [00:41:37] There was no interest to be had. So that drives up asset prices, it drove up the stock market, it drove up private company valuations, drove up the prices of seed rounds and pre-seed rounds and everything, right? That is deflating quite a bit at the moment. So, in those two years where our deals stayed the same and we make the same sort of fixed term investments and there was, it got even more competitive for us to try to get into companies and invest in them. [00:42:00] And great companies had their pick of investors, we decided to go the other way and go even earlier and even crazier because instead of competing for those really high, overly marked up deals, we're gonna help start some things. And yes, we're gonna have a high mortality rate, but if you grab a couple that work, the markups are so gigantic that you end up with a pretty good performance on your fund, right? [00:42:22] So if you invest in a company, you know, at a 3 or 4 million dollar valuation, and the next round to capital for that company is in the twenties like, now you look like you know what you're doing and it's okay that a couple other ones like that seemed crazy, turned out to be crazy and went to zero, like the magic of venture capital is you can only lose your principle. [00:42:42] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. Asymmetric upside for sure. Especially with, [00:42:47] Bob Moczydlowsky: That's for sure. And so if you're thinking about deploying capital in the category, you kind of need to be promiscuous, right? You need to have a long-term horizon on it, and you need to be willing to think about it that way. And I think the way to do that is at the very earliest stages. Now to do that, you have to know how music works and you have to be able to get people on the phone, and you have to be able to argue about stuff, and you have to have the stomach for the crazy one, you know, going belly up six months after you wrote the check. but if you're willing to do those things, the amount of information you learn by doing that is sort of creates a, little flywheel around you making this better and better and better [00:43:21] Dan Runcie: decisions. [00:43:22] Right. And I think for you, at the end of the day, it's being able to get that buy-in from the LP base. And I'd be curious to hear from you, how has your LP base shifted over time? Are there any trends you've seen there? And does that say anything about what types of companies have been more or less interested in investing in the future of solving problems for music in the past five, six years [00:43:44] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah. they've definitely gotten less conservative over time. More experimental, more willing to like try stuff. Like to the point even where like if you look at Warner from Warner's comments in, I think they maybe were in Music Ally or MBW a couple days ago, like late January, I think she even said publicly like, the era of conservatism is coming to an end. [00:44:06] We need to start experimenting with the way our content is used to build these businesses. I can back her up, she's awesome by the way. Very thoughtful looks at it at a really good high level. I can back her up and then I've actually felt and seen people's behavior change against that rhetoric. [00:44:22] when we first started the program, it was a lot of question about what are returns gonna look like? When are these companies gonna be valuable to us? When are we gonna get something out of this that's we can have, you know, financial ROI on and as the companies have evolved, as Endell became Endel and Splash became Splash and Community did its thing, and Gimme Radio is moving, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars for catalog divisions, you know, in specific genres. [00:44:47] Bob Moczydlowsky: When AI became, you know, the source of data warehousing and is helping people understand TikTok and Concord is the secretly Canadian are like, oh, we need to actually own a piece of that company, you know, when those things start to happen. Everybody looks at it and goes, oh, all right, like, we just need to water the garden. [00:45:03] We don't necessarily need to be beating any one deal up on its ROI as long as the garden has flowers in it, right? L et's look at the whole thing. And so we have a very real feeling of, collegiality and team inside of the accelerator. you know, it's not like Warners and Sony don't compete. It's not like Concord and Sony don't compete, right? But when it comes to a company that is providing the service that could help them be more efficient. They are more likely to collaborate and share information with each other, because everybody benefits. And that posture now, you know, in 2023 where, you know, compared to 2017 radically different. [00:45:39] Like when we were first putting the program together in 2017, I had major label business affairs lawyers, like giving me checklists around making sure we didn't have like, you know, anti-monopolist or collusion issues or antitrust issues with the way we shared information in the program. Now we have a screening committee where we look at sort of the top 25 companies each year, and everybody's in the room together sharing ideas and like trading deal flow, and like, oh, I think we really like this one. [00:46:07] Do you guys like this? If we wrote a check, would you write a check? Like the conversation is so radically different and collaborative compared to where we started. That I can just say like the music business knows that to get growth, it needs to be more experimental, and it's not like it was doing the wrong thing from 2005 to 2012 or 2013 when your annual revenues are declining, [00:46:33] like anybody, you lose your job, you have less revenue. You're gonna be more conservative with how you spend your cash and what you do it, and you're gonna be more protective about the revenue you do have, right? Like when you are making more money and you made your bonus and you got extra money you didn't plan for, you experiment and you try new things and like that. [00:46:50] So the good news is I think we're in an era that's gonna stay, you know, pretty steady for a while and that experimentation and growth is gonna occur, and it's a delight to see, you know, public rhetoric from the heads of major labels, like backing up the behavior they're already exhibiting in the accelerator, right? [00:47:07] Like, I think it's time for huge [00:47:09] Dan Runcie: optimism. [00:47:09] Well said. I think that they we're in this transition moment, so hopefully we'll see more of this. But Bob, this has been great. Before we let you go though, for folks that wanna stay in touch with what's happening with this cohort, with the accelerator, where should they go? [00:47:23] Bob Moczydlowsky: Okay, so we actually are recruiting some new mentors for this year's program. we have some specific issues and people that we're interested in and we want them to come, particularly from, hip hop, right? We are constantly trying to build a deeper bench of mentors and angel investors from the hiphop community all the time. [00:47:42] And so what I would tell people, if that's you and you're listening or you are active in that area, just email me. I'm Bob Moz, bobmoz@techstars.com. I'll send you a thing to submit on mentorship, and not everybody will make it through. Some people will have to say no to. But we'll read 'em and look at all of them, but there are specific things where we wanna e expand and deepen our community, that that's one of them. [00:48:03] the other thing, would be is that if you are an investor thinking about deal flow here, you're looking at a company we're in, or you're looking at a company that we're not in, and we can be helpful to you to like, here's what we've seen, here's the comps companies, here's the competing company or Oh, you know, we made an investment like that. [00:48:18] Bob Moczydlowsky: Here's all the places that fell apart. Be careful of these places. Also just, email me you know, I'm constantly talking to investors about their portfolio, not mine, and trying to like just be useful to them. because ultimately I want there to be more capital in the category, right? I want people to raise funds. I want them to invest in deals. [00:48:36] there's not one thing I can think of where I would've a competitive posture about any of that stuff. and I would tell people who wanna be involved, like, drop your competitive pieces off out of your own actions and your own behavior. Just be a hundred percent collaborative. [00:48:51] There's only a couple hundred people who are really serious and really active in this community worldwide. There's nothing to fight over. Like there's enough for everybody. and, you know, deals that I can't afford. That's okay, I'll still tell people I think they're cool deals and if you wanna be involved and see some of that stuff, like just email me and we have ways to plug people into our, community. It's hundreds of people. So, it's not like we're off in a closet running the accelerator with, 10 folks. It's a lot of people. [00:49:16] Dan Runcie: That's awesome. That's awesome. Love to see it. Well, thanks Bob. This has been fun. Appreciate you. Thu, 16 Feb 2023 16:30:00 -0000 Investing in New Music Startups (with Bob Moczydlowsky) full Dan Runcie The Techstars Music accelerator just announced its 7th cohort. As the program’s Managing Director Bob Moczydlowsky told me on this episode, they don’t invest in music companies. They invest in companies solving problems for the global music business.  There are 10 companies that involve music in some way, including — education, web3, and even wedding celebrations.  Each startup gets a $120,000 check from Techstars and hands-on development for 90 days. Past portfolio companies include Community, Endel, and Splash among many others. According to Bob, the program has returned a 3X multiple on invested capital since starting in 2017. Companies that went through the accelerator have gone on to raise an additional $250 million in capital after the accelerator. Here’s what we hit on: [0:00] How the accelerator has evolved  [7:56] Investment areas that have underperformed  [9:02] Is there a ceiling on music innovation?  [12:38] Minor-league scouting, major-league swinging [17:07] Repeating motif of investments [18:11] 2023 accelerator cohort is “weirdest class ever” [28:49] The case for remote teams [31:44] The surge in capital from outside music industry [37:46] Music is less sensitive to macroeconomic conditions [40:39] Return on music accelerator vs. other Techstars programs  [43:32] Techstars LP’s becoming more experimental  [48:01] Hip-hop business mentors wanted Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Bob Moczydlowsky, @bobmoz This episode is brought to you by Amuse. Learn more about how its new program Music Insights can help your artist career: https://www.amuse.io/en/insights Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Bob Moczydlowsky: We have to invest in something that isn't fashionable but looks like it's before it's time, might even look a little crazy. And that's the where we can add a ton of value. And then it's our job to help to look back three years later and go, oh yeah, there it is but of course we saw that all along. [00:00:13] Like, same thing with generative media. We've been making generative media in investments since the very first year of the program and about half of them are really interesting, valuable companies now. And it took a long time for the red, the market to sort of catch up to that. and then, you know, ironically, my problem is as a small check investor just at the moment where I know that space really well and I can be really helpful and we have a good portfolio there and a community of people to connect new founders too. Now that the category is hot, we can’t afford it anymore. [00:01:07] Dan Runcie's Guest Intro: Today's guest is the one and only Bob Moczydlowsky, but if you're in the space in the industry, you probably know him as Bob Moz. He is the managing director of the Techstars Music Accelerator, and he recently announced the seventh cohort that they have for the accelerator, which includes a few companies here, let me just read the names here. [00:01:26] Baton Media, Beeper, Confetti, 5ive Mics, Haven, Highly Liquid, Homeroom, Obey Me, Royalty, and Seed. So Bob and I talked about what went into these companies, what are some common themes that went into this cohort and how this cohort has changed over time. This is now the seventh year that Bob has been running this accelerator. [00:01:48] So he's gone through the bull market of startup investing. The growth of streaming and how each of those things have impacted. So what are some of the trends that have been the most lucrative for him? How he's evaluated on his returns, how his LP mix has been shaped and shifted over time, and some general trends and some common misconceptions that people hear and think about when it comes to investing in music companies and companies that are trying to solve problems in music. [00:02:16] Great episode, especially for the founders, investors and builders out there. Hope you. [00:02:22] Dan Runcie: [00:02:22] All right. Today we have Bob Moz, who is the managing director for Techstars Music Accelerator. Bob, first time on the podcast. [00:02:31] Bob Moczydlowsky: Thank you very much for having me. I am a, longtime listener. I'm kind of thrilled to be a guest. It's very cool. [00:02:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think it's great to talk to you right now because you have the new cohort for Techstars Music Accelerator now, but you've actually been doing this now since 2017, and I think that. It's been interesting to just to see how much has changed in your role, but more broadly with music. You had this bull run, you had streamings rapid growth, and I'm sure with that, there's been so many different evolutions of how this cohort and how the companies have shaped over time. [00:03:06] What's been your read on that? How has the accelerator evolved over time? [00:03:11] Bob Moczydlowsky: Oh man, that is a gigantic question right out of the gate. so when we started the program in 2017, part of the thesis was. and it is still sort of the dirty secret of Techstars music. Like, we're not really here to invest in music companies or music tech startups. We're here to invest in startups that solve problems for the global music business. [00:03:31] So we wanted to be five to seven years ahead of, where new revenue streams would be. New audience interactions would be. we wanted to be really, really out there on ways kids could express themselves and, and or make new music or how rights holders would monetize that music and I would say that heading into our seventh class, like any, you know, venture fund, we made a bunch of mistakes. [00:03:54] we are happy to have some really valuable companies in the portfolio that are changing the way the music business works, like Splash and Endel, and community. And so the winds have come from the places we didn't expect, with maybe the exception of generative media. We can talk about that a a little more. [00:04:11] Bob Moczydlowsky: We were into that from the beginning and we've, remained into it though I can no longer afford any of those deals because that's kind of a popular category. So I think I'm kind of out of those deals now. But in general, like the wins came from places we didn't expect and the defeats came in places we thought were gonna be great spots, right? [00:04:28] So what we have learned is that you really have to focus on the quality of the team. You really have to focus on the opportunity and how that company can capture value in the market. And then you have to be patient, and just, and remember that one email, you know, with a yes on it. One phone call with a yes changes the fortunes of companies. [00:04:48] Pre-seed, seed stage, you know, one feature, one good, dev sprint, where you actually really, you know, solve a problem for your users, changes the trajectory of the whole company. So, I would say that we have, put ourselves in a position now where we ha like our thesis is defensible, our portfolio value is real, and we have an incredible list of people who have come through the program and touched it in some way that. [00:05:12] make a lot of really important decisions in the music business. So mostly it's just, I feel old when you say that, and I just feel super grateful that we get to do. [00:05:20] Dan Runcie: Well, you said a few things there that I wanna dive into about the wins and the losses being opposite from what you may have expected on either side, and I think that's a thing I've heard from other investors and VCs, but specifically with this accelerator, are there certain trends that stuck out for things that you thought would've been a big bet but didn't end up turning out? [00:05:43] Bob Moczydlowsky: Well, know, we were really excited about adaptive music and it's changing and matching your biometrics and pairing that with fitness that hasn't really come to fruition yet. . I'm optimistic it still might, but it hasn't so far. we were super optimistic that the using DSP streams to make mixes would allow, DJs to create and express themselves and create new content and repurpose music, and that wouldn't be considered a derivative work. [00:06:08] And you could give full credit stream back to the rights owner, and that would be a way to deepen engagement and maybe add a couple of bucks to the monthly subscription fee of a larger DSP. That hasn't happened really, you know what I mean? or come to fruition. it has taken longer, than we've expected for someone to make a hit song using generative media and AI, though, you know, it sort of perpetually feels like it's right around the corner. [00:06:33] but I think in that category, you know, I think we were just wrong people were gonna use generative media and AI to make songs. and instead they were going to use it to become artists and play games. and so we've learned a lot there where, what the thing we actually learned, and I say "we", but what I really mean is the splash team. [00:06:50] Bob Moczydlowsky: And Steven and Angus, I'm a passenger in that, right? So I say "we" a lot, but those guys do all the work. you know, what they realized was that kids don't wanna make songs. Like no kid is going out there looking for an AI to make a song. they're looking for an AI to help them do [00:07:05] several of the things that it require that are required to be an artist and grow a following and have people pay attention to you and express yourself. And they went and built a whole game around, okay, well then here's all the parts you need to DJ set. Here's the ability to perform in front of people. [00:07:20] Here's a framework under which those performances are judged. And that became a wildly popular game. And so it turns out that like in the gaming world, you might use an AI to control both sides of the copyright, to give the player the freedom to do whatever they want with the music. but you also need a venue and you need an avatar, and you need a crowd. [00:07:38] And there's a bunch of pieces where it's the song or the music is just one part of that. so that's been a massive, massive learning. and then the last one I would say, is that we continue to make investments around this and we will continue to do it, but the pace at. royalty flow and auto software automation for routing payments from consumption of music. [00:07:56] The rate at which that has changed and adapted to be automated and look, I'm not naive. I know there's a bunch of competing interests and reasons, you know a bunch of players who benefit from it being slow and manual. but I think that's an inevitable area that has to get automated over time, and it hasn't happened as fast as I would expect it to. [00:08:14] we we're kind of bumping up against the ceiling of growth for revenue from recorded music until we start automating those payouts and have better database ownership and better understanding of who owns what on a track. And the idea of like, you know, one publisher opting out or, securing their payment information to sort of give them leverage. [00:08:33] Bob Moczydlowsky: Like, yes, that optimizes price for any one license or copyright, but it doesn't, grow the, it doesn't swell the tide. And so I think we're hitting this point where if we really want astronomical growth, we're gonna have to start automating that process too. [00:08:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah. [00:08:48] Bob Moczydlowsky: I remain optimistic. I'll keep trying on that one, but I haven't yet, mined any gold there, [00:08:52] Dan Runcie: touching on something that I've heard other investors talk about too, where it does feel like there is this ceiling of how much innovation, how much growth can truly happen, and you hear that mostly about music tech specifically, just because some investors feel that. The incumbents just have so much power and control over the wake. [00:09:12] Things currently are done with the systems that, whether it's tams or astronomical growth can be somewhat limited compared to what you may see in other industries. [00:09:21] Bob Moczydlowsky: That's right. that's part of why I say we invest in companies solving problems for music and not music companies, is that it is a really complicated process to license music and use that. and so you think about the, act of primary listening or primary consumption, you know, some of the big platform companies use that as a loss leader. [00:09:37] You know, Spotify's a pure play streamer, but they had diversified into audio and it took them enormous scale to make that those economics work. those are great businesses. It's cool, you know, think of me as a minor league talent scout. I'm not, you know, my checks are small. I go to work to help make those companies valuable. [00:09:53] That's a level of the game that, I can't play, I don't have the kind of capital to make investments replace current big competing companies to Spotify. I'm better off make investing in companies that have an opportunity because of the way Spotify changes the landscape or the way Amazon changes the landscape. [00:10:09] Now all of a sudden there's a new opportunity because people's consumption habits are different. That's where I'm gonna invest. I'm not gonna invest in the primary piece. And then the secondary part of that is like a lot of the way music copyright works, and we could talk about this as you dig into web three stuff if you want to. [00:10:25] but a lot of that stuff is coded in the law and it's coded in the law across multiple territories around the world. You can't just disrupt the way payments work for music. That's not how it works. . Like there are rules and laws that make that stuff be what it is. and so in some cases the, those laws are holding back growth for the rights holders and in some cases they're protecting value for them. [00:10:45] and startups that pretend that, that's not true, like they're kind of lying to themselves, you know, and they're, there's a couple of those every year. I wish someone would write a really definitive blog post about how to stay out of that. it is what it is. like that's not our domain. [00:10:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think too, just thinking about, you mentioned something as well, just in terms of you being in the minor league position, that's not your job necessarily to make the swings for the majors, but I also have to imagine too that whether it's you or even some of your LPs, would love to be able to double down and invest some of the prorata that you may have in some of these follow on rounds. [00:11:20] Bob Moczydlowsky: Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, my job is to swing for the majors, right? but my job is to find a company that could be a billion dollar company where, you know, a couple a hundred grand and the support of the program and mentorship can put it on a path to succeed. Like if a company needs 10 million dollars to start, I just don't have that kind of capital. [00:11:40] I'm not the right profile of investor for that company. So it's not that I'm not trying to get gigantic companies, right? Like when we wrote the first check in to Endel people thought we were crazy. They were like, what are you doing? How is the personalized soundscape for helping you focus, relax, or go to sleep? [00:11:55] How is that gonna be a billion dollar company? And now you're in a situation where there's, you know, millions of dollars in annual revenue, hundreds of thousands of subscribers, interesting revenue coming out of the DSPs. Incredible partnerships with artists. No one at this point now in music, would argue that functional music is going to be eight to 10, maybe 12% of total consumption of music. [00:12:20] And that Endel isn't the premium brand and the most valuable company in that space, that's sort of a foregone conclusion. That wasn't the case when we wrote that check. That's what I mean about sort of minor league, right? It's like, it's not that the companies aren't major league companies, of course they are. [00:12:37] It's just that we have to invest in something that isn't fashionable but looks like it's before it's time, might even look a little crazy. And that's the where we can add a ton of value. And then it's our job to help to look back three years later and go, oh yeah, there it is but of course we saw that all along. [00:12:52] Like, same thing with generative media. We've been making generative media in investments since the very first year of the program and about half of them are really interesting, valuable companies now. And it took a long time for the red, the market to sort of catch up to that. and then, you know, ironically, my problem is as a small check investor just at the moment where I know that space really well and I can be really helpful and we have a good portfolio there and a community of people to connect new founders too. [00:13:19] Now that category is hot and we can't afford those deals anymore. [00:13:23] Dan Runcie: And I'm sure. [00:13:24] Bob Moczydlowsky: so that's what I mean, like it's not that we're trying to have small companies, we're trying to have [00:13:27] Dan Runcie: Right. No, that makes sense. And I would imagine too, Whether it's your investors or others, they would love for you to be able to, oh, could you still get in these deals? Or could you still be able to do the follow on investments in whether it's an end or, or some of the generative companies? [00:13:42] Bob Moczydlowsky: That's right. so the companies that have come through our program in total have gone out and raised another additional 250 million dollars after taking our initial capital, Right? so the capital we've deployed through the program is now, let me see, 7.4 million dollars after this current class. [00:13:58] It'll be 7.4 million of, checks all sort of at that 120K, you know, Techstars, accelerator deal. You know, like they're all the same. All of our deployments are Post program now 250 million plus, it's like 254 million, something like that. And change has come into those companies after the program, of which about 16 million of it has come from the member companies. [00:14:20] So that's Sony Warner's, Peloton, Hyde, Concord Monarch, Quality Control, Right hand, Bill Silva. All of those companies sort of collectively have put another 16 million dollars in post program, into those companies. So they're, active strategic investors and angel investors into those companies. the number I don't have that I should to tell you, is like also the individual, the number, the numbers, right? [00:14:44] So executives from those companies as angels, or, executives or mentors who are not from the members, but are just independent and come and visit and help in the program. They also write, you know, 25K, 50K, 100K angel checks into companies. That number's a little harder for us to capture. cuz it's sort of personal money and not, corporate money, but, everybody around the program is definitely taking prorata and in, participating in those rounds as the companies grow grow for sure [00:15:07] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I feel like those examples hit at the flip side of that earlier question of, at the time people probably didn't think that those were the areas that may have lined up with the initial thesis on paper, but they ended up being some of the most successful ones you had. [00:15:23] Bob Moczydlowsky: it is a continuing, like delightful and hilarious, like repeating, you know, motif through the whole program. Right. no one liked Splash when it came in. It was called Pop Gun at the time. No one liked that, right? That's a 70 million dollar company now and the number one music related Roblox game. [00:15:40] The company shimmer came in and was sort of like stuck mid-C ground, had a huge pivot and became community, right? That was, who could have predicted that? Endel, everybody hated, didn't believe it was real. Hey, these crazy Russian guys. This isn't science back. this doesn't work. [00:15:55] This is the placebo effect. you , know, that's a 75 million dollar company. even just recently, like last year as recently as last year, having all of this history in the program, we get all the members together to screen new companies coming in and decide who we're gonna invest in. [00:16:07] last December, the lowest ranked company in that screening was Circle Labs. Run by Anushk Mittal makes sentient NPCs sort of, and chat bot, right? A year ahead of chatGPT a year ahead of, in world, right? In those companies trying to like personalities into video game characters. you know, and during the program he went from sort of like two or 3000 users to 25,000 users. [00:16:31] Bob Moczydlowsky: By the end of the summer he had 40,000 users. They're making these creators, you know, they're making these characters independent creators are, they're in multiple Discord servers. They're chatting with people all day. They have Twitter accounts, that becomes a competitive round, that light speed leads last fall, no one thought that was a company. [00:16:48] Everybody thought that was crazy, not gonna be a thing. Now that's a, you know, $20 million plus company just you know, less than a year later, right? So it just is a thing that like can keeps repeating and repeating over time. and the reminder to us as investors and, especially at this pre-seed stage is it's okay if it's wild, right? [00:17:08] There are gonna be things that are wild that are gonna fail, but only the wild different ones have a chance to actually move into that open space in that green field and be a huge company from seemingly nowhere, right? And that's our job. Our job is to experiment with that stuff and bring the whole music business around, in an ecosystem to participate and argue about it and be wrong together and disagree. [00:17:29] And, you know, it's sort of my job to provide that safe space for those conversations to. [00:17:34] Dan Runcie: Right, and I feel like you've talked about this a little bit, and even in past conversations about how the definition of a Techstars Accelerator company, or Techstars Music Company is part of that. It continues to evolve as you've seen different cohorts, but at least for this current cohort right now, you have a few, three companies in here. [00:17:56] You have a few music companies, even one involved with wedding celebrations as well. [00:18:01] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah, we do. It's the weirdest class ever, in the best way. Like I'm actually really curious. So you've seen it almost before anybody else has. and you know, it'll be public by the time people are hearing this podcast, but it's not public right now. Like, where do you wanna start? [00:18:15] Like, it's an interesting list. there's probably a couple companies on there you've heard of before and seen, , I'm actually like, I'm happy to talk about any of them and I'm just as fascinated and curious to hear where you wanna start and what you, saw when [00:18:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So we gotta start with Confetti. We gotta start with the wedding planning there and looking at the website, this wasn't a company that was on my radar before, but that's why I love stuff like this. You know, you're able to have unique access to things and it points out, and for me it stuck out. [00:18:43] There's an experiential aspect. We all know how many people would love to be able to see and attend and experienced weddings and can't normally do so, but they're integrating brands. They're integrating music and culture in different ways and I think that's a unique thing. And yes, of course you could always throw a Zoom link. [00:19:02] I've attended Zoom weddings before, especially during the pandemic, but I think there's something different here. And that one, let's start there. That one stuck out to me. [00:19:10] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah. It's the most polarizing company, within our sort of internal community coming into the program. Andrew, the CEO knows this, like you've mentioned all the things like people wanna attend remotely. People might watch and buy a ticket to an influencer wedding. As weird as that sounds like it's totally believable thing that could happen. [00:19:26] but I also think like there are, ways to organize media and everybody's at these events with a phone in their hand the entire time. like, you know, you're dressed up, you're in your suit, you're in your cocktail dress, whatever it. The only thing you need besides yourself and a fancy outfit at a wedding is your phone. [00:19:42] Bob Moczydlowsky: You're taking pictures, you're making video, you're sharing things. So the concept of can we provide and experience people who are not there, can we generate and organize content with people who are there? Can we do virtual gifting and tipping or challenges and organize some of that stuff, especially as that pertains to the big moments in a wedding, which also, let's be honest, revolve around music in a lot of ways. [00:20:04] I mean, it's very few weddings you've been to that don't involve music in as a core key ingredient in different places. this is a thing where there's enormous number of these events that happen over time. There's enormous potential in organizing this already existing behavior. and this is a good, it's a good hack as a venture investor if the behavior already exists and the company is gonna capture value by organizing it. [00:20:27] that's a good opportunity as opposed to like, oh, we have to create some behavior and convince people to do this action. We have to change the user behavior before the company works. Those are companies that just have a much steeper hill to climb. And so this company comes to us with some traction. [00:20:43] They've done some influencer weddings, they've got kind of a cool philosophy around it. We're gonna run a bunch of experiments and see if we can turn this into a [00:20:50] Dan Runcie: So what does the business model look like [00:20:52] Bob Moczydlowsky: for them? [00:20:52] Come along for the ride, like, if right now it is a share of ticketing for the influencer stuff, right? [00:20:57] and that's kind of marketing if you think about it. Like how do I get people comfortable with, how do I participate in a wedding remotely? but we actually think the much larger opportunity is just in people moving cash around during the wedding, gifting, buying things for each other, participating or having the account to organize the media. [00:21:14] So there's several different revenue streams inside of that, and we're gonna experiment with like, what makes people happiest and they'll do sort of at volume. but right now the virtual gifting thing is a real thing. And it's easy [00:21:24] Bob Moczydlowsky: for a bunch of [00:21:25] people. Like, you don't have to bring the gift with you. [00:21:27] you know, you're not just sending, like, who wants to just buy something off an Amazon registry link that's boring. Like, let's instead, you know, put a bunch of money on at the moment and, you know, run up a cool tab for people to go have a good honeymoon with during the reception itself. Totally believable. [00:21:41] Dan Runcie: No, I think there's something there, especially even with brand opportunities too. Just think about the number of brands that want exposure. Think about anytime you see a wedding and even just a way to like share that information in a way that's more clear. I know friends get weddings, literally, they'll reshare the Instagram story of every friend that was at the wedding, and it's like, all right, you know, happy for your nuptials and everything, but I'm not gonna sit here and tap through a hundred Instagram stories. Like, no, I'm not gonna do it. But if there's some type of interesting thing that's somewhat in between some, you know, $10,000 videographer, you know, montage that they put together and something that could be done here, I think there's something cool to be able to potentially tap into there. [00:22:21] So excited for that one. The other one, come meet them. [00:22:25] Dan Runcie: I know. Yeah. The other one that stuck out to me is Five Mics. So Ace Patterson, "Call Me Ace". He's been a guest on this podcast before. Him and I are friends, and I remember him telling me about this startup that he is playing as a while, and I think that he has, interesting landscape into the industry from both his work in consulting, working in big tech, working at YouTube. [00:22:49] So he understands how that piece of it works, but then he's an artist himself, so just tapping into the collectibles opportunity, and I feel like so many people have been talking about that hip hop gaming collectible intersection, so I feel like there's something there. [00:23:03] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah, I mean, well, so we should tell people what it is, so anybody listening, the picture is very simple. Imagine a card game like Magic: The Gathering or horror stone that is started around hip hop. And so instead of playing my or versus your Wizard, I'm playing Snoop versus, you know, Chief Keith, I don't know, like I don't know if it requires name and likeness. [00:23:21] I don't know. Like the whole thing could happen. It could be Snoop Lion versus Murder Was The Case, Snoop, right? There's a bunch of different ways you could think about the organization of the characters. They could even be. Made up characters just in a fantasy hip hop world, if you don't, you know, need name and likeness, right? [00:23:36] but the concept of those cards as digital collectibles, not physical printed things, you can store them, right? You can tokenize them, you can play them back and forth. if that game is fun and can entertain you, that's a real opportunity in a very cool and interesting way. And so I think, you know, I think Ace and Adam, are really talented guys who needed a shot, they needed shelter to actually like get this idea off the whiteboard and into practical reality. [00:24:01] Bob Moczydlowsky: And part of the reason our program exists is to take really talented people who need that and need a little capital and need a little shelter to really like, feel like they gave that thing the full effort it deserves. and that's an idea that deserves real effort. Like that's a great concept. And if done correctly, I think we all could believe that could be played by millions of kids around the world. [00:24:21] No problem. [00:24:21] Dan Runcie: The other companies that stuck out to me from the list, there was a large focus I felt on community. There were a number of the startups that are either tapping into it, in some way, trying to bring music fans together, bring collaboration with other folks together. [00:24:32] Bob Moczydlowsky: A hundred percent a theme for this year's process. Yep. Like very intentional. we talked a lot about what's happening around our own behavior, and the way we are all kind of interacting with each other. And it's like, I don't know if I need to have millions of followers. [00:24:46] Like that's not a community. I need to have, you know, hundreds of people or thousands of people that are really like-minded that really teach me things and move me together. And, and so, the future being a massive niches is a thing we've all been talking about for a very long time. [00:24:59] And there's a lot of evidence happening right now that these things are starting to become really lucrative, really valuable to people, and are becoming places rather than just online destinations. so we got a couple of companies that, touch this sphere, One called Homeroom, founder named RJ Ruggles. [00:25:15] the Lazy investor way to describe this company is it's Google Analytics for your online communities. it's the, console you use to monitor Discord, Slack, other community-based environments where your community manager has to report metrics back to the business. Are we getting people out of the community into the transactional purchase funnel? [00:25:33] Bob Moczydlowsky: Do we have people leaving the community because the commentary is toxic they're getting harassed? How do we monitor and what are the standard metrics by which we operate as community managers, like that's pretty loosely defined these days. and we think we can build a piece of software that defines that for people and then also helps them do better at it. [00:25:51] and then in that same world, there's a company called Highly Liquid, run by Izzy Howell. If you imagine if you build a new fashion brand, and the buzzword of the day is a fi digital brand, right? Where you have digital and physical products. [00:26:03] Bob Moczydlowsky: You have physical experiences, online community. So if you took a company like Supreme and we're gonna start at today, not everything would be skate decks and t-shirts. but you'd have collaborations. You would have some products in person and in her mind, Highly Liquid is targeted at women who care about online and tech communities, her first, product drop is actually a pair of panties. It's like a lingerie product. The second product will be in a totally different sort of category. but the idea that there's sort of a, what's the company, mischief. [00:26:32] She references a lot that does like crazy online campaigns with artists and gets, like, creates trouble online and gets people to follow. If you combine that with sort of an ongoing community that was about female empowerment, about being active online in a, cool community, had a little bit of your favorite R-rated sex comedy jokes and attitude about it, that's a really interesting brand. [00:26:51] That could exist in lots of different channels. and so we're excited about that and you could see how a company like that would need a company like Homeroom, as part of its core, you know, control center for running the, business. Right. on the other side of that is this company, Seed,the founders come out of a small town in Puerto Rico. [00:27:07] They're living in Florida now. They've built an online music community slash school for learning about the music business. Entirely in Spanish and targeted exclusively to Spanish speaking markets. So they're not trying to like have multiple languages and everything's in English, like very specifically Spanish language, Spanish language contracts, dynamics and explaining the way the business works from the perspective of someone who sees Bad Bunny or sees Shakira and aspires to be in that world. [00:27:37] and that company is doing gangbusters business already. and could be, I think the definitive brand for how music business expands in Spanish speaking, territories, right? Again, driven by a combination of school and curriculum, but also community and professional development, and a place where you can go and talk to people and develop your career and make like sort of lifelong contacts. [00:28:00] Bob Moczydlowsky: As opposed to something like LinkedIn where it's like, oh, everybody's on LinkedIn. So there's not really any real community there, right? yes, you need that because you need the publicly available place where you're, you could be found professionally, but in your industry, in your category, in your specific vertical, you need much more interaction. [00:28:16] So, we're headed that way with sort of, with some of those companies. So I'm glad you noticed like this. It's not an accident that all that stuff's [00:28:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I'm sure too with this cohort, this is a hybrid cohort. With that, we're talking a little bit before we record it, but you're gonna have a week in la, you'll have a week in Atlanta. There'll be a lot of remote time, and I think that reflects a lot of the trends we've seen over. The past few years, and even how Techstars has run, because you started out where the teams were all in LA, at least for the duration, working outta the office during the pandemic. [00:28:49] Everything's remote. Now it's hybrid, which I think does reflect a lot of this that we've seen. and I know that the focus of teams and the people that are building these is so important, especially in early stage startups. How is your evaluation of teams? And that piece of it evolved with knowing that even the startups themselves may not be directly working in the same place. [00:29:11] Like the founders themselves may not be directly in the same location. [00:29:14] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah, I think the idea that you have to run your startup in a specific room with everybody all together, or you have to be in a specific geography like, the trend was that that wasn't true pre covid, but Covid just wiped it off the, board. You know, like we, we've had companies in the past, like investor, like go to see investors and the investors is like, oh, like everything about this deal except that your company's located in Europe or your company's located in Australia or whatever, so we're gonna pass because of your location. [00:29:44] I haven't heard that in years, you know what I mean? Like we're in a new world now where people can be multiple places at once in a really weird but true way. Like, one of the teams coming in, Baton is working on organizing all of the pre-release, like work in progress music. [00:29:59] And their teams are all over the place. They've got guys in, they have a guy in Dubai, they've got a team in Italy, they've got Americans, they have people in New York, they're gonna be with us here in LA. We have a team, working on online virtual nightclubs, specifically targeting African teens. [00:30:15] They're based in South Africa and London. They're gonna be with us in LA and New York and probably raise capital in the US and build a product targeted towards, you know, teens in Africa. So the idea that these things are geographically focused, or your thesis could be geographically focused, I think is actually a detriment if you're operating that way. [00:30:32] and so we've resort of rearranged the way the program works to try to add a maximum amount of value for Serendipity. Be together in the office, talk about hard things, have accountability, do an all hands, meet each other, share contacts, and then break apart and go back remote and focus on shipping product. [00:30:50] Bob Moczydlowsky: And you can do really great mentor meetings in, you know, 20, 30 minute sessions via Zoom and get access to amazing people because they don't have to come to the office to have that meeting. and so if as long as you're balancing the hard conversations and the development and the team organization in those in-person weeks. [00:31:08] And then you're breaking apart to go actually focus and accomplish stuff. I think you end up with the best of both worlds. So we've always had an international program by thesis design. Half our investments are outside of the United States because we think that's where most of the future revenue opportunities are and growth is gonna be. [00:31:25] So the hybrid model just makes this whole thing, you know, easier for us and allows us to actually, you know, have European portfolio companies that are just as important to us and accessible to us as Americans. [00:31:36] Dan Runcie: Definitely, especially in this industry, with any company that's trying to improve problems for music, it's most likely gonna come from places outside of the us so that makes a lot of sense. The other shift that I've seen over the past couple years, especially in music, is the increasing amount of non-music or non-music people that have a big checks or they're trying to get involved in some way, usually at later stage rounds. [00:32:03] And in your case, those could be the folks that are marking up some of your companies that you've already made investments in, do you feel like that has shifted what the success likelihood or the type of companies that may get follow on investing in that, that you're then looking at your end of obviously trying to fund those companies out to be most likely to exit and how that may have shifted the portfolio companies or just the likelihood of success one way or another for companies solving problems in. [00:32:32] Bob Moczydlowsky: Hmm. Yeah, I would say it's like, so it kind of depends like, the companies that are related to music, there are a lot of people coming into music who have bought catalog or who have, who have bought music related assets, who now wanna help further that ecosystem. and we have a company in this year coming into this year's class called Royalty that's working on, like, the analogy I would use for that company is, a company that was very boring, that wasn't very sexy, called Athena Health that automated the medical billing process. [00:32:58] Like it was too hard for doctor's offices and clinics to submit their procedures to the insurance company. Insurance company reject it cuz it didn't have some special code on it. They have to go refile it and try to get paid to qualify. Right. That model looks a lot like, royalty registration and making sure you're collecting money from copyright assets around the world. [00:33:16] And so you see people funding companies like that and like entertainment intelligence, although I guess entertainment intelligence in the program a couple years ago. We sort of co-own that as a program with Concord and secretly Canadian, and it's used by Monarch and secretly, and Hopeless Records and a bunch of other folks, to do data warehousing and trend analysis, right? It's the ability to watch what's happening to your streaming data and then react to tiny signals in that data. So, for example, you have a catalog track that you haven't done primary marketing on or 15 years starts to get a little traction on TikTok. You now need to call your rep the DSP and get that thing onto a playlist or you need to call your music supervisors and get that in somewhere, right? And so investment and capital and growth is happening for those companies. and they're so like that's the kind of company that the person who's coming to music because they bought some assets or they've had extra cash and they're developing, those are the kind of companies that we're seeing that kind of investment going to. [00:34:15] and like I'm really excited about royalty this year because of that opportunity, right? There are people now who have gone and purchased these assets, who now need the way the music business operates to become more efficient and more streamlined so that they can get growth that justifies the multiple they paid for that catalog. [00:34:30] Bob Moczydlowsky: If you bought a catalog at 20 x annual revenue, you need to make sure you're collecting every penny that's due to you, and you need to work on streamlining the way the business works to get more money in the future, right? So you get a faster payoff and better ROI on your deals. The companies that are most valuable for us, however, I still have to cajole, convince, arm twist network with, you know, grade A venture investors and show them those deals. [00:34:56] And I almost have to leave out the fact that we operate in and around music on those deals, right? Like when Splash goes to COSLA or Endell goes to, true or, gogogo comics goes to BitCraft or Circle Labs goes to light speed music isn't part of the conversation at all in those cases. And we still have a stigma of music as a category is a smaller, not as interesting place to play for those investors and instead of convincing them that they're wrong and they should look, I have found that the way to be effective is just to show them the opportunity uniquely to that one company and let them judge that and forget how it relates to music altogether. [00:35:38] Dan Runcie: That first point you mentioned I think is really interesting because if you're a company that has purchased a catalog, it would also be in your interest to make sure that those payments are being processed as efficiently as they should, or any other type of financial activity that could benefit your asset that you just spent 50, 60, a hundred million on could be even more beneficial. [00:35:59] So that piece, it made sense. And I think too, even the comparison to like Athena Health, right? How can you make a comp to some other industry where this thing did this and helped push things moving forward. I could definitely see that. I would like to imagine that the music conversation, maybe it would eventually shift at some point. [00:36:17] I know that we often hear the comparison to gaming and how gaming's revenue continues to increase and I know a very different business model different in a lot of ways. So I still think that the big tams are out there, and I think because given. There's been so much investment activity, even from the major record labels or some of the indies. [00:36:36] I know some of them are investors in your accelerator, or they have made big investments themselves or big bets like they want to be able to increase the overall pie. Just think that there's so much that is inherent with the complexity of the business and just some of the. Information that can be held tight, that can make some of it be a bit challenging. [00:36:56] But if you do have that combination of someone that knows the space, someone that's willing to find efficiencies where it can be, I still think that there is big opportunity. [00:37:06] Bob Moczydlowsky: I agree. Like If anything, there are more deals that I would like to do that I can't do. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like I'm like, oh, I didn't have enough deals to do. I think the next couple of years, there will be less cash. There will be less capital in the market. [00:37:19] which will be good because there was sort of too much and prices were too high and there was too many and it was hard to sift through which founders are real and which ones weren't. but in these next couple of years, there is unbelievable opportunity based on sort of like the inertia of where the business is headed and whatever impact we get of macroeconomic downturn is gonna hit music less than it's gonna hit a bunch of other categories. [00:37:42] And so the concept of music driving culture and culture driving everything else, and things starting in around music, and music, being willing to find these other revenue streams. music was at the forefront of the direct-to-consumer online shopping revolution. Music was at the beginning of the, how do I become, an entity that can have multiple brands and collaborations and have new consumer products driven by fandom. [00:38:03] Music has been at the forefront of these movements over and over and over again, and the company doesn't have to position itself as a music company to benefit from working in and around music, right? Like that's the way we think about it. And I just think that's gonna be more and more true over the next several years. [00:38:18] It's just gonna be, and the things that people wanna do in and around music, like go to events and go have experiences with their friends outside. are going to become even stronger. That demand is really high now, and we have a bunch of tools and platforms that allow people to do that at scale. [00:38:37] That was never possible before, right? Like this company coming into this year's class, I think it's the last one maybe we haven't talked about. Haven, they have multiple brands, one called Floating and one called Ambient Church. Where they put on events that don't have artists on the top. They have sort of experience like, we're gonna go to the park and there's gonna be a sound bath, and we're going to like 40 people, no alcohol Sunday afternoon out in nature. [00:39:00] Connect with each other, talk to each other, be mindful and relax and like de-stress from our overly technical scheduled lives. That company, you know, sold tens of thousands of tickets last year across their two brands. And they're connecting everybody with, you know, SMS community and membership belonging to a community that furthers those brands and those events. [00:39:22] But the event itself is like unplugged, disconnected, like that's the level we're at now where the tools allow you to have sort of music style experiences that don't necessarily involve the legacy music business at all. There's no promoter there. There's no primary ticketer, you know, there's no tour merch, there's no back production company. [00:39:43] There's not a huge rig and a negotiation like there's none of that stuff. It's just humans agreeing to go do something and enjoy some music and sound out in nature. But everything around it makes like you can have the entire rest of the company that looks like a really awesome modern promoter company because you can scale it horizontally into multiple cities. [00:40:03] Through community, right? So these are the things where everybody says there's no more green space in and around music. It's a low limited category, there aren't big, huge opportunities for these companies to have a hundred, 200 million in annual revenue, a billion dollars in annual revenue. [00:40:18] I just kind of chuckle cuz it's like the perfect, you know, like it's the perfect great garden bed to plant these seeds in. Like yes, they grow up to be trees in other forests, but they start there. [00:40:28] Dan Runcie: And when you hear that pushback, do you have like stats that you can show or anything that like I'd be curious to hear what does the Techstar Music Accelerator returns or success look like compared to maybe other Techstar non-music accelerators like we. [00:40:43] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah, so some of that's pretty proprietary. couple of the stats I'll give you just because I'd like you and I'll probably get in trouble, but it'll be okay. So our multiple on invested capital from the accelerator is a little over three. And, you know, we've deployed, like I said, that 7.4, you can do the math on that about what our positions are worth in those companies. [00:41:02] The reason that is true is because, you know, the way an accelerator works is you, you know, there's gonna be a power law, right? You're gonna put 10 companies in, you're gonna work on them together. They're not all gonna end up being equal, but the things you learn from the ones that fail are gonna help you make better decisions on the next batch. [00:41:19] Bob Moczydlowsky: And, so, you know, the last couple of years the market has been so, frothy, right? There's been so much cash looking for assets to the price of assets just went way up, right? Interest rates were effectively zero. If you had cash, you had to do something with it to get a return. You couldn't just put it away and get 3, 4, 5, 6% on it. [00:41:37] There was no interest to be had. So that drives up asset prices, it drove up the stock market, it drove up private company valuations, drove up the prices of seed rounds and pre-seed rounds and everything, right? That is deflating quite a bit at the moment. So, in those two years where our deals stayed the same and we make the same sort of fixed term investments and there was, it got even more competitive for us to try to get into companies and invest in them. [00:42:00] And great companies had their pick of investors, we decided to go the other way and go even earlier and even crazier because instead of competing for those really high, overly marked up deals, we're gonna help start some things. And yes, we're gonna have a high mortality rate, but if you grab a couple that work, the markups are so gigantic that you end up with a pretty good performance on your fund, right? [00:42:22] So if you invest in a company, you know, at a 3 or 4 million dollar valuation, and the next round to capital for that company is in the twenties like, now you look like you know what you're doing and it's okay that a couple other ones like that seemed crazy, turned out to be crazy and went to zero, like the magic of venture capital is you can only lose your principle. [00:42:42] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. Asymmetric upside for sure. Especially with, [00:42:47] Bob Moczydlowsky: That's for sure. And so if you're thinking about deploying capital in the category, you kind of need to be promiscuous, right? You need to have a long-term horizon on it, and you need to be willing to think about it that way. And I think the way to do that is at the very earliest stages. Now to do that, you have to know how music works and you have to be able to get people on the phone, and you have to be able to argue about stuff, and you have to have the stomach for the crazy one, you know, going belly up six months after you wrote the check. but if you're willing to do those things, the amount of information you learn by doing that is sort of creates a, little flywheel around you making this better and better and better [00:43:21] Dan Runcie: decisions. [00:43:22] Right. And I think for you, at the end of the day, it's being able to get that buy-in from the LP base. And I'd be curious to hear from you, how has your LP base shifted over time? Are there any trends you've seen there? And does that say anything about what types of companies have been more or less interested in investing in the future of solving problems for music in the past five, six years [00:43:44] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah. they've definitely gotten less conservative over time. More experimental, more willing to like try stuff. Like to the point even where like if you look at Warner from Warner's comments in, I think they maybe were in Music Ally or MBW a couple days ago, like late January, I think she even said publicly like, the era of conservatism is coming to an end. [00:44:06] We need to start experimenting with the way our content is used to build these businesses. I can back her up, she's awesome by the way. Very thoughtful looks at it at a really good high level. I can back her up and then I've actually felt and seen people's behavior change against that rhetoric. [00:44:22] when we first started the program, it was a lot of question about what are returns gonna look like? When are these companies gonna be valuable to us? When are we gonna get something out of this that's we can have, you know, financial ROI on and as the companies have evolved, as Endell became Endel and Splash became Splash and Community did its thing, and Gimme Radio is moving, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars for catalog divisions, you know, in specific genres. [00:44:47] Bob Moczydlowsky: When AI became, you know, the source of data warehousing and is helping people understand TikTok and Concord is the secretly Canadian are like, oh, we need to actually own a piece of that company, you know, when those things start to happen. Everybody looks at it and goes, oh, all right, like, we just need to water the garden. [00:45:03] We don't necessarily need to be beating any one deal up on its ROI as long as the garden has flowers in it, right? L et's look at the whole thing. And so we have a very real feeling of, collegiality and team inside of the accelerator. you know, it's not like Warners and Sony don't compete. It's not like Concord and Sony don't compete, right? But when it comes to a company that is providing the service that could help them be more efficient. They are more likely to collaborate and share information with each other, because everybody benefits. And that posture now, you know, in 2023 where, you know, compared to 2017 radically different. [00:45:39] Like when we were first putting the program together in 2017, I had major label business affairs lawyers, like giving me checklists around making sure we didn't have like, you know, anti-monopolist or collusion issues or antitrust issues with the way we shared information in the program. Now we have a screening committee where we look at sort of the top 25 companies each year, and everybody's in the room together sharing ideas and like trading deal flow, and like, oh, I think we really like this one. [00:46:07] Do you guys like this? If we wrote a check, would you write a check? Like the conversation is so radically different and collaborative compared to where we started. That I can just say like the music business knows that to get growth, it needs to be more experimental, and it's not like it was doing the wrong thing from 2005 to 2012 or 2013 when your annual revenues are declining, [00:46:33] like anybody, you lose your job, you have less revenue. You're gonna be more conservative with how you spend your cash and what you do it, and you're gonna be more protective about the revenue you do have, right? Like when you are making more money and you made your bonus and you got extra money you didn't plan for, you experiment and you try new things and like that. [00:46:50] So the good news is I think we're in an era that's gonna stay, you know, pretty steady for a while and that experimentation and growth is gonna occur, and it's a delight to see, you know, public rhetoric from the heads of major labels, like backing up the behavior they're already exhibiting in the accelerator, right? [00:47:07] Like, I think it's time for huge [00:47:09] Dan Runcie: optimism. [00:47:09] Well said. I think that they we're in this transition moment, so hopefully we'll see more of this. But Bob, this has been great. Before we let you go though, for folks that wanna stay in touch with what's happening with this cohort, with the accelerator, where should they go? [00:47:23] Bob Moczydlowsky: Okay, so we actually are recruiting some new mentors for this year's program. we have some specific issues and people that we're interested in and we want them to come, particularly from, hip hop, right? We are constantly trying to build a deeper bench of mentors and angel investors from the hiphop community all the time. [00:47:42] And so what I would tell people, if that's you and you're listening or you are active in that area, just email me. I'm Bob Moz, bobmoz@techstars.com. I'll send you a thing to submit on mentorship, and not everybody will make it through. Some people will have to say no to. But we'll read 'em and look at all of them, but there are specific things where we wanna e expand and deepen our community, that that's one of them. [00:48:03] the other thing, would be is that if you are an investor thinking about deal flow here, you're looking at a company we're in, or you're looking at a company that we're not in, and we can be helpful to you to like, here's what we've seen, here's the comps companies, here's the competing company or Oh, you know, we made an investment like that. [00:48:18] Bob Moczydlowsky: Here's all the places that fell apart. Be careful of these places. Also just, email me you know, I'm constantly talking to investors about their portfolio, not mine, and trying to like just be useful to them. because ultimately I want there to be more capital in the category, right? I want people to raise funds. I want them to invest in deals. [00:48:36] there's not one thing I can think of where I would've a competitive posture about any of that stuff. and I would tell people who wanna be involved, like, drop your competitive pieces off out of your own actions and your own behavior. Just be a hundred percent collaborative. [00:48:51] There's only a couple hundred people who are really serious and really active in this community worldwide. There's nothing to fight over. Like there's enough for everybody. and, you know, deals that I can't afford. That's okay, I'll still tell people I think they're cool deals and if you wanna be involved and see some of that stuff, like just email me and we have ways to plug people into our, community. It's hundreds of people. So, it's not like we're off in a closet running the accelerator with, 10 folks. It's a lot of people. [00:49:16] Dan Runcie: That's awesome. That's awesome. Love to see it. Well, thanks Bob. This has been fun. Appreciate you. The Techstars Music accelerator just announced its 7th cohort. As the program’s Managing Director Bob Moczydlowsky told me on this episode, they don’t invest in music companies. They invest in companies solving problems for the global music business. 


There are 10 companies that involve music in some way, including — education, web3, and even wedding celebrations. 


Each startup gets a $120,000 check from Techstars and hands-on development for 90 days. Past portfolio companies include Community, Endel, and Splash among many others. According to Bob, the program has returned a 3X multiple on invested capital since starting in 2017. Companies that went through the accelerator have gone on to raise an additional $250 million in capital after the accelerator.


Here’s what we hit on:

[0:00] How the accelerator has evolved 

[7:56] Investment areas that have underperformed 

[9:02] Is there a ceiling on music innovation? 

[12:38] Minor-league scouting, major-league swinging

[17:07] Repeating motif of investments

[18:11] 2023 accelerator cohort is “weirdest class ever”

[28:49] The case for remote teams

[31:44] The surge in capital from outside music industry

[37:46] Music is less sensitive to macroeconomic conditions

[40:39] Return on music accelerator vs. other Techstars programs 

[43:32] Techstars LP’s becoming more experimental 

[48:01] Hip-hop business mentors wanted


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Bob Moczydlowsky, @bobmoz


This episode is brought to you by Amuse. Learn more about how its new program Music Insights can help your artist career: https://www.amuse.io/en/insights


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TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Bob Moczydlowsky: We have to invest in something that isn't fashionable but looks like it's before it's time, might even look a little crazy. And that's the where we can add a ton of value. And then it's our job to help to look back three years later and go, oh yeah, there it is but of course we saw that all along.

[00:00:13] Like, same thing with generative media. We've been making generative media in investments since the very first year of the program and about half of them are really interesting, valuable companies now. And it took a long time for the red, the market to sort of catch up to that. and then, you know, ironically, my problem is as a small check investor just at the moment where I know that space really well and I can be really helpful and we have a good portfolio there and a community of people to connect new founders too. Now that the category is hot, we can’t afford it anymore.

[00:01:07] Dan Runcie's Guest Intro: Today's guest is the one and only Bob Moczydlowsky, but if you're in the space in the industry, you probably know him as Bob Moz. He is the managing director of the Techstars Music Accelerator, and he recently announced the seventh cohort that they have for the accelerator, which includes a few companies here, let me just read the names here.

[00:01:26] Baton Media, Beeper, Confetti, 5ive Mics, Haven, Highly Liquid, Homeroom, Obey Me, Royalty, and Seed. So Bob and I talked about what went into these companies, what are some common themes that went into this cohort and how this cohort has changed over time. This is now the seventh year that Bob has been running this accelerator.

[00:01:48] So he's gone through the bull market of startup investing. The growth of streaming and how each of those things have impacted. So what are some of the trends that have been the most lucrative for him? How he's evaluated on his returns, how his LP mix has been shaped and shifted over time, and some general trends and some common misconceptions that people hear and think about when it comes to investing in music companies and companies that are trying to solve problems in music.

[00:02:16] Great episode, especially for the founders, investors and builders out there. Hope you.

[00:02:22] Dan Runcie:

[00:02:22] All right. Today we have Bob Moz, who is the managing director for Techstars Music Accelerator. Bob, first time on the podcast.

[00:02:31] Bob Moczydlowsky: Thank you very much for having me. I am a, longtime listener. I'm kind of thrilled to be a guest. It's very cool.

[00:02:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think it's great to talk to you right now because you have the new cohort for Techstars Music Accelerator now, but you've actually been doing this now since 2017, and I think that. It's been interesting to just to see how much has changed in your role, but more broadly with music. You had this bull run, you had streamings rapid growth, and I'm sure with that, there's been so many different evolutions of how this cohort and how the companies have shaped over time.

[00:03:06] What's been your read on that? How has the accelerator evolved over time?

[00:03:11] Bob Moczydlowsky: Oh man, that is a gigantic question right out of the gate. so when we started the program in 2017, part of the thesis was. and it is still sort of the dirty secret of Techstars music. Like, we're not really here to invest in music companies or music tech startups. We're here to invest in startups that solve problems for the global music business.

[00:03:31] So we wanted to be five to seven years ahead of, where new revenue streams would be. New audience interactions would be. we wanted to be really, really out there on ways kids could express themselves and, and or make new music or how rights holders would monetize that music and I would say that heading into our seventh class, like any, you know, venture fund, we made a bunch of mistakes.

[00:03:54] we are happy to have some really valuable companies in the portfolio that are changing the way the music business works, like Splash and Endel, and community. And so the winds have come from the places we didn't expect, with maybe the exception of generative media. We can talk about that a a little more.

[00:04:11] Bob Moczydlowsky: We were into that from the beginning and we've, remained into it though I can no longer afford any of those deals because that's kind of a popular category. So I think I'm kind of out of those deals now. But in general, like the wins came from places we didn't expect and the defeats came in places we thought were gonna be great spots, right?

[00:04:28] So what we have learned is that you really have to focus on the quality of the team. You really have to focus on the opportunity and how that company can capture value in the market. And then you have to be patient, and just, and remember that one email, you know, with a yes on it. One phone call with a yes changes the fortunes of companies.

[00:04:48] Pre-seed, seed stage, you know, one feature, one good, dev sprint, where you actually really, you know, solve a problem for your users, changes the trajectory of the whole company. So, I would say that we have, put ourselves in a position now where we ha like our thesis is defensible, our portfolio value is real, and we have an incredible list of people who have come through the program and touched it in some way that.

[00:05:12] make a lot of really important decisions in the music business. So mostly it's just, I feel old when you say that, and I just feel super grateful that we get to do.

[00:05:20] Dan Runcie: Well, you said a few things there that I wanna dive into about the wins and the losses being opposite from what you may have expected on either side, and I think that's a thing I've heard from other investors and VCs, but specifically with this accelerator, are there certain trends that stuck out for things that you thought would've been a big bet but didn't end up turning out?

[00:05:43] Bob Moczydlowsky: Well, know, we were really excited about adaptive music and it's changing and matching your biometrics and pairing that with fitness that hasn't really come to fruition yet. . I'm optimistic it still might, but it hasn't so far. we were super optimistic that the using DSP streams to make mixes would allow, DJs to create and express themselves and create new content and repurpose music, and that wouldn't be considered a derivative work.

[00:06:08] And you could give full credit stream back to the rights owner, and that would be a way to deepen engagement and maybe add a couple of bucks to the monthly subscription fee of a larger DSP. That hasn't happened really, you know what I mean? or come to fruition. it has taken longer, than we've expected for someone to make a hit song using generative media and AI, though, you know, it sort of perpetually feels like it's right around the corner.

[00:06:33] but I think in that category, you know, I think we were just wrong people were gonna use generative media and AI to make songs. and instead they were going to use it to become artists and play games. and so we've learned a lot there where, what the thing we actually learned, and I say "we", but what I really mean is the splash team.

[00:06:50] Bob Moczydlowsky: And Steven and Angus, I'm a passenger in that, right? So I say "we" a lot, but those guys do all the work. you know, what they realized was that kids don't wanna make songs. Like no kid is going out there looking for an AI to make a song. they're looking for an AI to help them do

[00:07:05] several of the things that it require that are required to be an artist and grow a following and have people pay attention to you and express yourself. And they went and built a whole game around, okay, well then here's all the parts you need to DJ set. Here's the ability to perform in front of people.

[00:07:20] Here's a framework under which those performances are judged. And that became a wildly popular game. And so it turns out that like in the gaming world, you might use an AI to control both sides of the copyright, to give the player the freedom to do whatever they want with the music. but you also need a venue and you need an avatar, and you need a crowd.

[00:07:38] And there's a bunch of pieces where it's the song or the music is just one part of that. so that's been a massive, massive learning. and then the last one I would say, is that we continue to make investments around this and we will continue to do it, but the pace at. royalty flow and auto software automation for routing payments from consumption of music.

[00:07:56] The rate at which that has changed and adapted to be automated and look, I'm not naive. I know there's a bunch of competing interests and reasons, you know a bunch of players who benefit from it being slow and manual. but I think that's an inevitable area that has to get automated over time, and it hasn't happened as fast as I would expect it to.

[00:08:14] we we're kind of bumping up against the ceiling of growth for revenue from recorded music until we start automating those payouts and have better database ownership and better understanding of who owns what on a track. And the idea of like, you know, one publisher opting out or, securing their payment information to sort of give them leverage.

[00:08:33] Bob Moczydlowsky: Like, yes, that optimizes price for any one license or copyright, but it doesn't, grow the, it doesn't swell the tide. And so I think we're hitting this point where if we really want astronomical growth, we're gonna have to start automating that process too.

[00:08:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah.

[00:08:48] Bob Moczydlowsky: I remain optimistic. I'll keep trying on that one, but I haven't yet, mined any gold there,

[00:08:52] Dan Runcie: touching on something that I've heard other investors talk about too, where it does feel like there is this ceiling of how much innovation, how much growth can truly happen, and you hear that mostly about music tech specifically, just because some investors feel that. The incumbents just have so much power and control over the wake.

[00:09:12] Things currently are done with the systems that, whether it's tams or astronomical growth can be somewhat limited compared to what you may see in other industries.

[00:09:21] Bob Moczydlowsky: That's right. that's part of why I say we invest in companies solving problems for music and not music companies, is that it is a really complicated process to license music and use that. and so you think about the, act of primary listening or primary consumption, you know, some of the big platform companies use that as a loss leader.

[00:09:37] You know, Spotify's a pure play streamer, but they had diversified into audio and it took them enormous scale to make that those economics work. those are great businesses. It's cool, you know, think of me as a minor league talent scout. I'm not, you know, my checks are small. I go to work to help make those companies valuable.

[00:09:53] That's a level of the game that, I can't play, I don't have the kind of capital to make investments replace current big competing companies to Spotify. I'm better off make investing in companies that have an opportunity because of the way Spotify changes the landscape or the way Amazon changes the landscape.

[00:10:09] Now all of a sudden there's a new opportunity because people's consumption habits are different. That's where I'm gonna invest. I'm not gonna invest in the primary piece. And then the secondary part of that is like a lot of the way music copyright works, and we could talk about this as you dig into web three stuff if you want to.

[00:10:25] but a lot of that stuff is coded in the law and it's coded in the law across multiple territories around the world. You can't just disrupt the way payments work for music. That's not how it works. . Like there are rules and laws that make that stuff be what it is. and so in some cases the, those laws are holding back growth for the rights holders and in some cases they're protecting value for them.

[00:10:45] and startups that pretend that, that's not true, like they're kind of lying to themselves, you know, and they're, there's a couple of those every year. I wish someone would write a really definitive blog post about how to stay out of that. it is what it is. like that's not our domain.

[00:10:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think too, just thinking about, you mentioned something as well, just in terms of you being in the minor league position, that's not your job necessarily to make the swings for the majors, but I also have to imagine too that whether it's you or even some of your LPs, would love to be able to double down and invest some of the prorata that you may have in some of these follow on rounds.

[00:11:20] Bob Moczydlowsky: Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, my job is to swing for the majors, right? but my job is to find a company that could be a billion dollar company where, you know, a couple a hundred grand and the support of the program and mentorship can put it on a path to succeed. Like if a company needs 10 million dollars to start, I just don't have that kind of capital.

[00:11:40] I'm not the right profile of investor for that company. So it's not that I'm not trying to get gigantic companies, right? Like when we wrote the first check in to Endel people thought we were crazy. They were like, what are you doing? How is the personalized soundscape for helping you focus, relax, or go to sleep?

[00:11:55] How is that gonna be a billion dollar company? And now you're in a situation where there's, you know, millions of dollars in annual revenue, hundreds of thousands of subscribers, interesting revenue coming out of the DSPs. Incredible partnerships with artists. No one at this point now in music, would argue that functional music is going to be eight to 10, maybe 12% of total consumption of music.

[00:12:20] And that Endel isn't the premium brand and the most valuable company in that space, that's sort of a foregone conclusion. That wasn't the case when we wrote that check. That's what I mean about sort of minor league, right? It's like, it's not that the companies aren't major league companies, of course they are.

[00:12:37] It's just that we have to invest in something that isn't fashionable but looks like it's before it's time, might even look a little crazy. And that's the where we can add a ton of value. And then it's our job to help to look back three years later and go, oh yeah, there it is but of course we saw that all along.

[00:12:52] Like, same thing with generative media. We've been making generative media in investments since the very first year of the program and about half of them are really interesting, valuable companies now. And it took a long time for the red, the market to sort of catch up to that. and then, you know, ironically, my problem is as a small check investor just at the moment where I know that space really well and I can be really helpful and we have a good portfolio there and a community of people to connect new founders too.

[00:13:19] Now that category is hot and we can't afford those deals anymore.

[00:13:23] Dan Runcie: And I'm sure.

[00:13:24] Bob Moczydlowsky: so that's what I mean, like it's not that we're trying to have small companies, we're trying to have

[00:13:27] Dan Runcie: Right. No, that makes sense. And I would imagine too, Whether it's your investors or others, they would love for you to be able to, oh, could you still get in these deals? Or could you still be able to do the follow on investments in whether it's an end or, or some of the generative companies?

[00:13:42] Bob Moczydlowsky: That's right. so the companies that have come through our program in total have gone out and raised another additional 250 million dollars after taking our initial capital, Right? so the capital we've deployed through the program is now, let me see, 7.4 million dollars after this current class.

[00:13:58] It'll be 7.4 million of, checks all sort of at that 120K, you know, Techstars, accelerator deal. You know, like they're all the same. All of our deployments are Post program now 250 million plus, it's like 254 million, something like that. And change has come into those companies after the program, of which about 16 million of it has come from the member companies.

[00:14:20] So that's Sony Warner's, Peloton, Hyde, Concord Monarch, Quality Control, Right hand, Bill Silva. All of those companies sort of collectively have put another 16 million dollars in post program, into those companies. So they're, active strategic investors and angel investors into those companies. the number I don't have that I should to tell you, is like also the individual, the number, the numbers, right?

[00:14:44] So executives from those companies as angels, or, executives or mentors who are not from the members, but are just independent and come and visit and help in the program. They also write, you know, 25K, 50K, 100K angel checks into companies. That number's a little harder for us to capture. cuz it's sort of personal money and not, corporate money, but, everybody around the program is definitely taking prorata and in, participating in those rounds as the companies grow grow for sure

[00:15:07] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I feel like those examples hit at the flip side of that earlier question of, at the time people probably didn't think that those were the areas that may have lined up with the initial thesis on paper, but they ended up being some of the most successful ones you had.

[00:15:23] Bob Moczydlowsky: it is a continuing, like delightful and hilarious, like repeating, you know, motif through the whole program. Right. no one liked Splash when it came in. It was called Pop Gun at the time. No one liked that, right? That's a 70 million dollar company now and the number one music related Roblox game.

[00:15:40] The company shimmer came in and was sort of like stuck mid-C ground, had a huge pivot and became community, right? That was, who could have predicted that? Endel, everybody hated, didn't believe it was real. Hey, these crazy Russian guys. This isn't science back. this doesn't work.

[00:15:55] This is the placebo effect. you , know, that's a 75 million dollar company. even just recently, like last year as recently as last year, having all of this history in the program, we get all the members together to screen new companies coming in and decide who we're gonna invest in.

[00:16:07] last December, the lowest ranked company in that screening was Circle Labs. Run by Anushk Mittal makes sentient NPCs sort of, and chat bot, right? A year ahead of chatGPT a year ahead of, in world, right? In those companies trying to like personalities into video game characters. you know, and during the program he went from sort of like two or 3000 users to 25,000 users.

[00:16:31] Bob Moczydlowsky: By the end of the summer he had 40,000 users. They're making these creators, you know, they're making these characters independent creators are, they're in multiple Discord servers. They're chatting with people all day. They have Twitter accounts, that becomes a competitive round, that light speed leads last fall, no one thought that was a company.

[00:16:48] Everybody thought that was crazy, not gonna be a thing. Now that's a, you know, $20 million plus company just you know, less than a year later, right? So it just is a thing that like can keeps repeating and repeating over time. and the reminder to us as investors and, especially at this pre-seed stage is it's okay if it's wild, right?

[00:17:08] There are gonna be things that are wild that are gonna fail, but only the wild different ones have a chance to actually move into that open space in that green field and be a huge company from seemingly nowhere, right? And that's our job. Our job is to experiment with that stuff and bring the whole music business around, in an ecosystem to participate and argue about it and be wrong together and disagree.

[00:17:29] And, you know, it's sort of my job to provide that safe space for those conversations to.

[00:17:34] Dan Runcie: Right, and I feel like you've talked about this a little bit, and even in past conversations about how the definition of a Techstars Accelerator company, or Techstars Music Company is part of that. It continues to evolve as you've seen different cohorts, but at least for this current cohort right now, you have a few, three companies in here.

[00:17:56] You have a few music companies, even one involved with wedding celebrations as well.

[00:18:01] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah, we do. It's the weirdest class ever, in the best way. Like I'm actually really curious. So you've seen it almost before anybody else has. and you know, it'll be public by the time people are hearing this podcast, but it's not public right now. Like, where do you wanna start?

[00:18:15] Like, it's an interesting list. there's probably a couple companies on there you've heard of before and seen, , I'm actually like, I'm happy to talk about any of them and I'm just as fascinated and curious to hear where you wanna start and what you, saw when

[00:18:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So we gotta start with Confetti. We gotta start with the wedding planning there and looking at the website, this wasn't a company that was on my radar before, but that's why I love stuff like this. You know, you're able to have unique access to things and it points out, and for me it stuck out.

[00:18:43] There's an experiential aspect. We all know how many people would love to be able to see and attend and experienced weddings and can't normally do so, but they're integrating brands. They're integrating music and culture in different ways and I think that's a unique thing. And yes, of course you could always throw a Zoom link.

[00:19:02] I've attended Zoom weddings before, especially during the pandemic, but I think there's something different here. And that one, let's start there. That one stuck out to me.

[00:19:10] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah. It's the most polarizing company, within our sort of internal community coming into the program. Andrew, the CEO knows this, like you've mentioned all the things like people wanna attend remotely. People might watch and buy a ticket to an influencer wedding. As weird as that sounds like it's totally believable thing that could happen.

[00:19:26] but I also think like there are, ways to organize media and everybody's at these events with a phone in their hand the entire time. like, you know, you're dressed up, you're in your suit, you're in your cocktail dress, whatever it. The only thing you need besides yourself and a fancy outfit at a wedding is your phone.

[00:19:42] Bob Moczydlowsky: You're taking pictures, you're making video, you're sharing things. So the concept of can we provide and experience people who are not there, can we generate and organize content with people who are there? Can we do virtual gifting and tipping or challenges and organize some of that stuff, especially as that pertains to the big moments in a wedding, which also, let's be honest, revolve around music in a lot of ways.

[00:20:04] I mean, it's very few weddings you've been to that don't involve music in as a core key ingredient in different places. this is a thing where there's enormous number of these events that happen over time. There's enormous potential in organizing this already existing behavior. and this is a good, it's a good hack as a venture investor if the behavior already exists and the company is gonna capture value by organizing it.

[00:20:27] that's a good opportunity as opposed to like, oh, we have to create some behavior and convince people to do this action. We have to change the user behavior before the company works. Those are companies that just have a much steeper hill to climb. And so this company comes to us with some traction.

[00:20:43] They've done some influencer weddings, they've got kind of a cool philosophy around it. We're gonna run a bunch of experiments and see if we can turn this into a

[00:20:50] Dan Runcie: So what does the business model look like

[00:20:52] Bob Moczydlowsky: for them?

[00:20:52] Come along for the ride, like, if right now it is a share of ticketing for the influencer stuff, right?

[00:20:57] and that's kind of marketing if you think about it. Like how do I get people comfortable with, how do I participate in a wedding remotely? but we actually think the much larger opportunity is just in people moving cash around during the wedding, gifting, buying things for each other, participating or having the account to organize the media.

[00:21:14] So there's several different revenue streams inside of that, and we're gonna experiment with like, what makes people happiest and they'll do sort of at volume. but right now the virtual gifting thing is a real thing. And it's easy

[00:21:24] Bob Moczydlowsky: for a bunch of

[00:21:25] people. Like, you don't have to bring the gift with you.

[00:21:27] you know, you're not just sending, like, who wants to just buy something off an Amazon registry link that's boring. Like, let's instead, you know, put a bunch of money on at the moment and, you know, run up a cool tab for people to go have a good honeymoon with during the reception itself. Totally believable.

[00:21:41] Dan Runcie:

No, I think there's something there, especially even with brand opportunities too. Just think about the number of brands that want exposure. Think about anytime you see a wedding and even just a way to like share that information in a way that's more clear. I know friends get weddings, literally, they'll reshare the Instagram story of every friend that was at the wedding, and it's like, all right, you know, happy for your nuptials and everything, but I'm not gonna sit here and tap through a hundred Instagram stories. Like, no, I'm not gonna do it. But if there's some type of interesting thing that's somewhat in between some, you know, $10,000 videographer, you know, montage that they put together and something that could be done here, I think there's something cool to be able to potentially tap into there.

[00:22:21] So excited for that one. The other one, come meet them.

[00:22:25] Dan Runcie: I know. Yeah. The other one that stuck out to me is Five Mics. So Ace Patterson, "Call Me Ace". He's been a guest on this podcast before. Him and I are friends, and I remember him telling me about this startup that he is playing as a while, and I think that he has, interesting landscape into the industry from both his work in consulting, working in big tech, working at YouTube.

[00:22:49] So he understands how that piece of it works, but then he's an artist himself, so just tapping into the collectibles opportunity, and I feel like so many people have been talking about that hip hop gaming collectible intersection, so I feel like there's something there.

[00:23:03] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah, I mean, well, so we should tell people what it is, so anybody listening, the picture is very simple. Imagine a card game like Magic: The Gathering or horror stone that is started around hip hop. And so instead of playing my or versus your Wizard, I'm playing Snoop versus, you know, Chief Keith, I don't know, like I don't know if it requires name and likeness.

[00:23:21] I don't know. Like the whole thing could happen. It could be Snoop Lion versus Murder Was The Case, Snoop, right? There's a bunch of different ways you could think about the organization of the characters. They could even be. Made up characters just in a fantasy hip hop world, if you don't, you know, need name and likeness, right?

[00:23:36] but the concept of those cards as digital collectibles, not physical printed things, you can store them, right? You can tokenize them, you can play them back and forth. if that game is fun and can entertain you, that's a real opportunity in a very cool and interesting way. And so I think, you know, I think Ace and Adam, are really talented guys who needed a shot, they needed shelter to actually like get this idea off the whiteboard and into practical reality.

[00:24:01] Bob Moczydlowsky: And part of the reason our program exists is to take really talented people who need that and need a little capital and need a little shelter to really like, feel like they gave that thing the full effort it deserves. and that's an idea that deserves real effort. Like that's a great concept. And if done correctly, I think we all could believe that could be played by millions of kids around the world.

[00:24:21] No problem.

[00:24:21] Dan Runcie: The other companies that stuck out to me from the list, there was a large focus I felt on community. There were a number of the startups that are either tapping into it, in some way, trying to bring music fans together, bring collaboration with other folks together.

[00:24:32] Bob Moczydlowsky: A hundred percent a theme for this year's process. Yep. Like very intentional. we talked a lot about what's happening around our own behavior, and the way we are all kind of interacting with each other. And it's like, I don't know if I need to have millions of followers.

[00:24:46] Like that's not a community. I need to have, you know, hundreds of people or thousands of people that are really like-minded that really teach me things and move me together. And, and so, the future being a massive niches is a thing we've all been talking about for a very long time.

[00:24:59] And there's a lot of evidence happening right now that these things are starting to become really lucrative, really valuable to people, and are becoming places rather than just online destinations. so we got a couple of companies that, touch this sphere, One called Homeroom, founder named RJ Ruggles.

[00:25:15] the Lazy investor way to describe this company is it's Google Analytics for your online communities. it's the, console you use to monitor Discord, Slack, other community-based environments where your community manager has to report metrics back to the business. Are we getting people out of the community into the transactional purchase funnel?

[00:25:33] Bob Moczydlowsky: Do we have people leaving the community because the commentary is toxic they're getting harassed? How do we monitor and what are the standard metrics by which we operate as community managers, like that's pretty loosely defined these days. and we think we can build a piece of software that defines that for people and then also helps them do better at it.

[00:25:51] and then in that same world, there's a company called Highly Liquid, run by Izzy Howell. If you imagine if you build a new fashion brand, and the buzzword of the day is a fi digital brand, right? Where you have digital and physical products.

[00:26:03] Bob Moczydlowsky: You have physical experiences, online community. So if you took a company like Supreme and we're gonna start at today, not everything would be skate decks and t-shirts. but you'd have collaborations. You would have some products in person and in her mind, Highly Liquid is targeted at women who care about online and tech communities, her first, product drop is actually a pair of panties. It's like a lingerie product. The second product will be in a totally different sort of category. but the idea that there's sort of a, what's the company, mischief.

[00:26:32] She references a lot that does like crazy online campaigns with artists and gets, like, creates trouble online and gets people to follow. If you combine that with sort of an ongoing community that was about female empowerment, about being active online in a, cool community, had a little bit of your favorite R-rated sex comedy jokes and attitude about it, that's a really interesting brand.

[00:26:51] That could exist in lots of different channels. and so we're excited about that and you could see how a company like that would need a company like Homeroom, as part of its core, you know, control center for running the, business. Right. on the other side of that is this company, Seed,the founders come out of a small town in Puerto Rico.

[00:27:07] They're living in Florida now. They've built an online music community slash school for learning about the music business. Entirely in Spanish and targeted exclusively to Spanish speaking markets. So they're not trying to like have multiple languages and everything's in English, like very specifically Spanish language, Spanish language contracts, dynamics and explaining the way the business works from the perspective of someone who sees Bad Bunny or sees Shakira and aspires to be in that world.

[00:27:37] and that company is doing gangbusters business already. and could be, I think the definitive brand for how music business expands in Spanish speaking, territories, right? Again, driven by a combination of school and curriculum, but also community and professional development, and a place where you can go and talk to people and develop your career and make like sort of lifelong contacts.

[00:28:00] Bob Moczydlowsky: As opposed to something like LinkedIn where it's like, oh, everybody's on LinkedIn. So there's not really any real community there, right? yes, you need that because you need the publicly available place where you're, you could be found professionally, but in your industry, in your category, in your specific vertical, you need much more interaction.

[00:28:16] So, we're headed that way with sort of, with some of those companies. So I'm glad you noticed like this. It's not an accident that all that stuff's

[00:28:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I'm sure too with this cohort, this is a hybrid cohort. With that, we're talking a little bit before we record it, but you're gonna have a week in la, you'll have a week in Atlanta. There'll be a lot of remote time, and I think that reflects a lot of the trends we've seen over. The past few years, and even how Techstars has run, because you started out where the teams were all in LA, at least for the duration, working outta the office during the pandemic.

[00:28:49] Everything's remote. Now it's hybrid, which I think does reflect a lot of this that we've seen. and I know that the focus of teams and the people that are building these is so important, especially in early stage startups. How is your evaluation of teams? And that piece of it evolved with knowing that even the startups themselves may not be directly working in the same place.

[00:29:11] Like the founders themselves may not be directly in the same location.

[00:29:14] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah, I think the idea that you have to run your startup in a specific room with everybody all together, or you have to be in a specific geography like, the trend was that that wasn't true pre covid, but Covid just wiped it off the, board. You know, like we, we've had companies in the past, like investor, like go to see investors and the investors is like, oh, like everything about this deal except that your company's located in Europe or your company's located in Australia or whatever, so we're gonna pass because of your location.

[00:29:44] I haven't heard that in years, you know what I mean? Like we're in a new world now where people can be multiple places at once in a really weird but true way. Like, one of the teams coming in, Baton is working on organizing all of the pre-release, like work in progress music.

[00:29:59] And their teams are all over the place. They've got guys in, they have a guy in Dubai, they've got a team in Italy, they've got Americans, they have people in New York, they're gonna be with us here in LA. We have a team, working on online virtual nightclubs, specifically targeting African teens.

[00:30:15] They're based in South Africa and London. They're gonna be with us in LA and New York and probably raise capital in the US and build a product targeted towards, you know, teens in Africa. So the idea that these things are geographically focused, or your thesis could be geographically focused, I think is actually a detriment if you're operating that way.

[00:30:32] and so we've resort of rearranged the way the program works to try to add a maximum amount of value for Serendipity. Be together in the office, talk about hard things, have accountability, do an all hands, meet each other, share contacts, and then break apart and go back remote and focus on shipping product.

[00:30:50] Bob Moczydlowsky: And you can do really great mentor meetings in, you know, 20, 30 minute sessions via Zoom and get access to amazing people because they don't have to come to the office to have that meeting. and so if as long as you're balancing the hard conversations and the development and the team organization in those in-person weeks.

[00:31:08] And then you're breaking apart to go actually focus and accomplish stuff. I think you end up with the best of both worlds. So we've always had an international program by thesis design. Half our investments are outside of the United States because we think that's where most of the future revenue opportunities are and growth is gonna be.

[00:31:25] So the hybrid model just makes this whole thing, you know, easier for us and allows us to actually, you know, have European portfolio companies that are just as important to us and accessible to us as Americans.

[00:31:36] Dan Runcie: Definitely, especially in this industry, with any company that's trying to improve problems for music, it's most likely gonna come from places outside of the us so that makes a lot of sense. The other shift that I've seen over the past couple years, especially in music, is the increasing amount of non-music or non-music people that have a big checks or they're trying to get involved in some way, usually at later stage rounds.

[00:32:03] And in your case, those could be the folks that are marking up some of your companies that you've already made investments in, do you feel like that has shifted what the success likelihood or the type of companies that may get follow on investing in that, that you're then looking at your end of obviously trying to fund those companies out to be most likely to exit and how that may have shifted the portfolio companies or just the likelihood of success one way or another for companies solving problems in.

[00:32:32] Bob Moczydlowsky: Hmm. Yeah, I would say it's like, so it kind of depends like, the companies that are related to music, there are a lot of people coming into music who have bought catalog or who have, who have bought music related assets, who now wanna help further that ecosystem. and we have a company in this year coming into this year's class called Royalty that's working on, like, the analogy I would use for that company is, a company that was very boring, that wasn't very sexy, called Athena Health that automated the medical billing process.

[00:32:58] Like it was too hard for doctor's offices and clinics to submit their procedures to the insurance company. Insurance company reject it cuz it didn't have some special code on it. They have to go refile it and try to get paid to qualify. Right. That model looks a lot like, royalty registration and making sure you're collecting money from copyright assets around the world.

[00:33:16] And so you see people funding companies like that and like entertainment intelligence, although I guess entertainment intelligence in the program a couple years ago. We sort of co-own that as a program with Concord and secretly Canadian, and it's used by Monarch and secretly, and Hopeless Records and a bunch of other folks, to do data warehousing and trend analysis, right? It's the ability to watch what's happening to your streaming data and then react to tiny signals in that data. So, for example, you have a catalog track that you haven't done primary marketing on or 15 years starts to get a little traction on TikTok. You now need to call your rep the DSP and get that thing onto a playlist or you need to call your music supervisors and get that in somewhere, right? And so investment and capital and growth is happening for those companies. and they're so like that's the kind of company that the person who's coming to music because they bought some assets or they've had extra cash and they're developing, those are the kind of companies that we're seeing that kind of investment going to.

[00:34:15] and like I'm really excited about royalty this year because of that opportunity, right? There are people now who have gone and purchased these assets, who now need the way the music business operates to become more efficient and more streamlined so that they can get growth that justifies the multiple they paid for that catalog.

[00:34:30] Bob Moczydlowsky: If you bought a catalog at 20 x annual revenue, you need to make sure you're collecting every penny that's due to you, and you need to work on streamlining the way the business works to get more money in the future, right? So you get a faster payoff and better ROI on your deals. The companies that are most valuable for us, however, I still have to cajole, convince, arm twist network with, you know, grade A venture investors and show them those deals.

[00:34:56] And I almost have to leave out the fact that we operate in and around music on those deals, right? Like when Splash goes to COSLA or Endell goes to, true or, gogogo comics goes to BitCraft or Circle Labs goes to light speed music isn't part of the conversation at all in those cases. And we still have a stigma of music as a category is a smaller, not as interesting place to play for those investors and instead of convincing them that they're wrong and they should look, I have found that the way to be effective is just to show them the opportunity uniquely to that one company and let them judge that and forget how it relates to music altogether.

[00:35:38] Dan Runcie: That first point you mentioned I think is really interesting because if you're a company that has purchased a catalog, it would also be in your interest to make sure that those payments are being processed as efficiently as they should, or any other type of financial activity that could benefit your asset that you just spent 50, 60, a hundred million on could be even more beneficial.

[00:35:59] So that piece, it made sense. And I think too, even the comparison to like Athena Health, right? How can you make a comp to some other industry where this thing did this and helped push things moving forward. I could definitely see that. I would like to imagine that the music conversation, maybe it would eventually shift at some point.

[00:36:17] I know that we often hear the comparison to gaming and how gaming's revenue continues to increase and I know a very different business model different in a lot of ways. So I still think that the big tams are out there, and I think because given. There's been so much investment activity, even from the major record labels or some of the indies.

[00:36:36] I know some of them are investors in your accelerator, or they have made big investments themselves or big bets like they want to be able to increase the overall pie. Just think that there's so much that is inherent with the complexity of the business and just some of the. Information that can be held tight, that can make some of it be a bit challenging.

[00:36:56] But if you do have that combination of someone that knows the space, someone that's willing to find efficiencies where it can be, I still think that there is big opportunity.

[00:37:06] Bob Moczydlowsky: I agree. Like If anything, there are more deals that I would like to do that I can't do. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like I'm like, oh, I didn't have enough deals to do. I think the next couple of years, there will be less cash. There will be less capital in the market.

[00:37:19] which will be good because there was sort of too much and prices were too high and there was too many and it was hard to sift through which founders are real and which ones weren't. but in these next couple of years, there is unbelievable opportunity based on sort of like the inertia of where the business is headed and whatever impact we get of macroeconomic downturn is gonna hit music less than it's gonna hit a bunch of other categories.

[00:37:42] And so the concept of music driving culture and culture driving everything else, and things starting in around music, and music, being willing to find these other revenue streams. music was at the forefront of the direct-to-consumer online shopping revolution. Music was at the beginning of the, how do I become, an entity that can have multiple brands and collaborations and have new consumer products driven by fandom.

[00:38:03] Music has been at the forefront of these movements over and over and over again, and the company doesn't have to position itself as a music company to benefit from working in and around music, right? Like that's the way we think about it. And I just think that's gonna be more and more true over the next several years.

[00:38:18] It's just gonna be, and the things that people wanna do in and around music, like go to events and go have experiences with their friends outside. are going to become even stronger. That demand is really high now, and we have a bunch of tools and platforms that allow people to do that at scale.

[00:38:37] That was never possible before, right? Like this company coming into this year's class, I think it's the last one maybe we haven't talked about. Haven, they have multiple brands, one called Floating and one called Ambient Church. Where they put on events that don't have artists on the top. They have sort of experience like, we're gonna go to the park and there's gonna be a sound bath, and we're going to like 40 people, no alcohol Sunday afternoon out in nature.

[00:39:00] Connect with each other, talk to each other, be mindful and relax and like de-stress from our overly technical scheduled lives. That company, you know, sold tens of thousands of tickets last year across their two brands. And they're connecting everybody with, you know, SMS community and membership belonging to a community that furthers those brands and those events.

[00:39:22] But the event itself is like unplugged, disconnected, like that's the level we're at now where the tools allow you to have sort of music style experiences that don't necessarily involve the legacy music business at all. There's no promoter there. There's no primary ticketer, you know, there's no tour merch, there's no back production company.

[00:39:43] There's not a huge rig and a negotiation like there's none of that stuff. It's just humans agreeing to go do something and enjoy some music and sound out in nature. But everything around it makes like you can have the entire rest of the company that looks like a really awesome modern promoter company because you can scale it horizontally into multiple cities.

[00:40:03] Through community, right? So these are the things where everybody says there's no more green space in and around music. It's a low limited category, there aren't big, huge opportunities for these companies to have a hundred, 200 million in annual revenue, a billion dollars in annual revenue.

[00:40:18] I just kind of chuckle cuz it's like the perfect, you know, like it's the perfect great garden bed to plant these seeds in. Like yes, they grow up to be trees in other forests, but they start there.

[00:40:28] Dan Runcie: And when you hear that pushback, do you have like stats that you can show or anything that like I'd be curious to hear what does the Techstar Music Accelerator returns or success look like compared to maybe other Techstar non-music accelerators like we.

[00:40:43] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah, so some of that's pretty proprietary. couple of the stats I'll give you just because I'd like you and I'll probably get in trouble, but it'll be okay. So our multiple on invested capital from the accelerator is a little over three. And, you know, we've deployed, like I said, that 7.4, you can do the math on that about what our positions are worth in those companies.

[00:41:02] The reason that is true is because, you know, the way an accelerator works is you, you know, there's gonna be a power law, right? You're gonna put 10 companies in, you're gonna work on them together. They're not all gonna end up being equal, but the things you learn from the ones that fail are gonna help you make better decisions on the next batch.

[00:41:19] Bob Moczydlowsky: And, so, you know, the last couple of years the market has been so, frothy, right? There's been so much cash looking for assets to the price of assets just went way up, right? Interest rates were effectively zero. If you had cash, you had to do something with it to get a return. You couldn't just put it away and get 3, 4, 5, 6% on it.

[00:41:37] There was no interest to be had. So that drives up asset prices, it drove up the stock market, it drove up private company valuations, drove up the prices of seed rounds and pre-seed rounds and everything, right? That is deflating quite a bit at the moment. So, in those two years where our deals stayed the same and we make the same sort of fixed term investments and there was, it got even more competitive for us to try to get into companies and invest in them.

[00:42:00] And great companies had their pick of investors, we decided to go the other way and go even earlier and even crazier because instead of competing for those really high, overly marked up deals, we're gonna help start some things. And yes, we're gonna have a high mortality rate, but if you grab a couple that work, the markups are so gigantic that you end up with a pretty good performance on your fund, right?

[00:42:22] So if you invest in a company, you know, at a 3 or 4 million dollar valuation, and the next round to capital for that company is in the twenties like, now you look like you know what you're doing and it's okay that a couple other ones like that seemed crazy, turned out to be crazy and went to zero, like the magic of venture capital is you can only lose your principle.

[00:42:42] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. Asymmetric upside for sure. Especially with,

[00:42:47] Bob Moczydlowsky: That's for sure. And so if you're thinking about deploying capital in the category, you kind of need to be promiscuous, right? You need to have a long-term horizon on it, and you need to be willing to think about it that way. And I think the way to do that is at the very earliest stages. Now to do that, you have to know how music works and you have to be able to get people on the phone, and you have to be able to argue about stuff, and you have to have the stomach for the crazy one, you know, going belly up six months after you wrote the check. but if you're willing to do those things, the amount of information you learn by doing that is sort of creates a, little flywheel around you making this better and better and better

[00:43:21] Dan Runcie: decisions.

[00:43:22] Right. And I think for you, at the end of the day, it's being able to get that buy-in from the LP base. And I'd be curious to hear from you, how has your LP base shifted over time? Are there any trends you've seen there? And does that say anything about what types of companies have been more or less interested in investing in the future of solving problems for music in the past five, six years

[00:43:44] Bob Moczydlowsky: Yeah. they've definitely gotten less conservative over time. More experimental, more willing to like try stuff. Like to the point even where like if you look at Warner from Warner's comments in, I think they maybe were in Music Ally or MBW a couple days ago, like late January, I think she even said publicly like, the era of conservatism is coming to an end.

[00:44:06] We need to start experimenting with the way our content is used to build these businesses. I can back her up, she's awesome by the way. Very thoughtful looks at it at a really good high level. I can back her up and then I've actually felt and seen people's behavior change against that rhetoric.

[00:44:22] when we first started the program, it was a lot of question about what are returns gonna look like? When are these companies gonna be valuable to us? When are we gonna get something out of this that's we can have, you know, financial ROI on and as the companies have evolved, as Endell became Endel and Splash became Splash and Community did its thing, and Gimme Radio is moving, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars for catalog divisions, you know, in specific genres.

[00:44:47] Bob Moczydlowsky: When AI became, you know, the source of data warehousing and is helping people understand TikTok and Concord is the secretly Canadian are like, oh, we need to actually own a piece of that company, you know, when those things start to happen. Everybody looks at it and goes, oh, all right, like, we just need to water the garden.

[00:45:03] We don't necessarily need to be beating any one deal up on its ROI as long as the garden has flowers in it, right? L et's look at the whole thing. And so we have a very real feeling of, collegiality and team inside of the accelerator. you know, it's not like Warners and Sony don't compete. It's not like Concord and Sony don't compete, right? But when it comes to a company that is providing the service that could help them be more efficient. They are more likely to collaborate and share information with each other, because everybody benefits. And that posture now, you know, in 2023 where, you know, compared to 2017 radically different.

[00:45:39] Like when we were first putting the program together in 2017, I had major label business affairs lawyers, like giving me checklists around making sure we didn't have like, you know, anti-monopolist or collusion issues or antitrust issues with the way we shared information in the program. Now we have a screening committee where we look at sort of the top 25 companies each year, and everybody's in the room together sharing ideas and like trading deal flow, and like, oh, I think we really like this one.

[00:46:07] Do you guys like this? If we wrote a check, would you write a check? Like the conversation is so radically different and collaborative compared to where we started. That I can just say like the music business knows that to get growth, it needs to be more experimental, and it's not like it was doing the wrong thing from 2005 to 2012 or 2013 when your annual revenues are declining,

[00:46:33] like anybody, you lose your job, you have less revenue. You're gonna be more conservative with how you spend your cash and what you do it, and you're gonna be more protective about the revenue you do have, right? Like when you are making more money and you made your bonus and you got extra money you didn't plan for, you experiment and you try new things and like that.

[00:46:50] So the good news is I think we're in an era that's gonna stay, you know, pretty steady for a while and that experimentation and growth is gonna occur, and it's a delight to see, you know, public rhetoric from the heads of major labels, like backing up the behavior they're already exhibiting in the accelerator, right?

[00:47:07] Like, I think it's time for huge

[00:47:09] Dan Runcie: optimism.

[00:47:09] Well said. I think that they we're in this transition moment, so hopefully we'll see more of this. But Bob, this has been great. Before we let you go though, for folks that wanna stay in touch with what's happening with this cohort, with the accelerator, where should they go?

[00:47:23] Bob Moczydlowsky: Okay, so we actually are recruiting some new mentors for this year's program. we have some specific issues and people that we're interested in and we want them to come, particularly from, hip hop, right? We are constantly trying to build a deeper bench of mentors and angel investors from the hiphop community all the time.

[00:47:42] And so what I would tell people, if that's you and you're listening or you are active in that area, just email me. I'm Bob Moz, bobmoz@techstars.com. I'll send you a thing to submit on mentorship, and not everybody will make it through. Some people will have to say no to. But we'll read 'em and look at all of them, but there are specific things where we wanna e expand and deepen our community, that that's one of them.

[00:48:03] the other thing, would be is that if you are an investor thinking about deal flow here, you're looking at a company we're in, or you're looking at a company that we're not in, and we can be helpful to you to like, here's what we've seen, here's the comps companies, here's the competing company or Oh, you know, we made an investment like that.

[00:48:18] Bob Moczydlowsky: Here's all the places that fell apart. Be careful of these places. Also just, email me you know, I'm constantly talking to investors about their portfolio, not mine, and trying to like just be useful to them. because ultimately I want there to be more capital in the category, right? I want people to raise funds. I want them to invest in deals.

[00:48:36] there's not one thing I can think of where I would've a competitive posture about any of that stuff. and I would tell people who wanna be involved, like, drop your competitive pieces off out of your own actions and your own behavior. Just be a hundred percent collaborative.

[00:48:51] There's only a couple hundred people who are really serious and really active in this community worldwide. There's nothing to fight over. Like there's enough for everybody. and, you know, deals that I can't afford. That's okay, I'll still tell people I think they're cool deals and if you wanna be involved and see some of that stuff, like just email me and we have ways to plug people into our, community. It's hundreds of people. So, it's not like we're off in a closet running the accelerator with, 10 folks. It's a lot of people.

[00:49:16] Dan Runcie: That's awesome. That's awesome. Love to see it. Well, thanks Bob. This has been fun. Appreciate you.

]]> 3006 no Rihanna, Roc Nation, and the Super Bowl Halftime Show (with DJ Louie XIV) https://www.trapital.com/podcast The biggest stage in music is still the Super Bowl Halftime Show. In 2023, that stage belongs to Rihanna. This is a noteworthy show for multiple reasons. Rihanna hasn’t released an album since 2016’s ANTI, which was a TIDAL exclusive! Seven years is a long time. She has since built two billion-dollar brands with Fenty Beauty and Savage X Fenty, and recently became a mother. Could this be the start of a music comeback for RiRi? A few years ago, Rihanna famously turned down this opportunity citing her support of Colin Kaepernick. But that was before Jay Z’s Roc Nation entered into an agreement with the NFL to produce the show in 2019. That relationship — Jay signed Rihanna to her first record deal at 16 — likely patched things up. This performance is also noteworthy since it's Apple Music’s first year as sponsor, taking over from Pepsi’s decade long-run.   To unpack it all, I brought on Louie Mandelbaum aka DJ Louie XIV. He’s a pop music connoisseur and breaks down the genre on his Pop Pantheon podcast. Here’s what we covered on the episode:  [1:38] How Rihanna has stayed relevant without releasing music [4:49] Factors behind Rihanna’s cool factor [13:18] Where will Rihanna’s performance rank among Super Bowl halftime performances? [18:03] Evaluating Roc Nation as halftime show producers [26:47] “Chaotic” MTV-era producing halftime shows  [28:59] Apple Music’s impact as first-time show sponsor [32:52] Is performing at the Super Bowl still the biggest stage? [37:15] Is Rihanna finally returning to music? [45:32] Predicting future Super Bowl performers Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Louie Mandelbaum, @DJLouieXIV This episode was brought to you by trac. Learn more about how artists can bring web2 and web3 together for their fans at trac.co Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Louie Mandelbaum: I would say there's three moments that really stand out to me, maybe four. the first is I do believe from the jump, she always had the coolest records from Pon de Replay on like Rihanna, Pon de Replay, SOS, Unfaithful. These were like very state of the art cutting edge, well-made. Cool pop songs. She always had that going for her. [00:00:23] I think from the jump, but I don't know if that necessarily translated into her celebrity persona. I think that began to emerge around her third record, which is 2007s Good Girl, Gone Bad. I think Umbrella kind of to me stands as like the moment where Rihanna went from sort of upstart to like true. [00:00:39] Kind of a-list Pop Star, that record is obviously widely considered to be one of the best pop songs of the 21st Century For Good Reason.  [00:01:15] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is a Super Bowl special. This is all about Rihanna, the halftime show, and how this show has evolved over the past few years. I was joined by DJ Louis the 14th, who is the host of the Pop Pantheon podcast, and him and I talked all about what do we expect from Rihanna? This is the first big music thing that she's done in quite a few years. [00:01:35] What do we think? Where this show will sit in terms of other performances that have been historic in the Super Bowl, this is now gonna be the fourth Super Bowl that Rock Nation has done. What do we think about the job that they've done? This is the first year for Apple Music. How have they been doing and what do we think we'll expect from them moving forward? [00:01:53] And also, We all know about the Super Bowl bounce, what artists do the year after the show. So what do we expect from Rihanna for the next couple of years after the show? What do we expect to see from the show moving forward? And we make some predictions at the end on who we think would be some dope Super Bowl performances that we could likely end up seeing in the next couple of years. [00:02:14] Here's the episode. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:16] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have the pop culture expert himself, DJ Louie the 14th here with us. Today he's hosted the Pop Pantheon podcast, and he was the best person that I had that I wanted to talk about this upcoming Super Bowl halftime show with the one and only Rihanna. So Louie, we're talking a little bit before we recorded just about her and how, I know she's someone that you can riff on for a while, but it would be good to start with where this fits with Rihanna's career right now, because she's someone that, I think it's almost gonna be seven years since Anti came out at this point, that at least the Super Bowl halftime show would've happened. I know she had the Black Panther song, but it's been so long since she's released new music, but she's still stayed so current. [00:03:04] What do you think it is about her that just keeps that. [00:03:08] Louie Mandelbaum: Dan. Thank you so much for having me on the show. So glad to be speaking with you. What I think is Rihanna's number one currency as a pop star, you know, like lots of pop stars have sort of a thing that. Is the engine behind their stardom, you know, for someone like Taylor Swift for instance, I would say it's her songwriting chops. [00:03:28] That's like the thing that everybody turns to about her. For Beyonce, it's kind of her epic performance abilities. Like, not to say they don't have other attributes that, you know are working towards their success, but they're sort of like a main thing with all of them. I tend to think, and to me Rihanna's has always been her cool factor, like Rihanna is the coolest pop star of her generation, and she's never been the most traditionally talented at any of like the musical aspects of all of it. Like she's not like a generational songwriter. She's not a particularly like gifted dancer, you know, she's a very distinctive, but not traditionally powerful vocalist necessarily. [00:04:13] So Rihanna's thing has always been that she is genuinely cool, like in a way that isn't put on or try hard in any sort of way. And I think that allows her to have a certain amount of interest in everything that she does, even when she's not making music. And of course, she's done a really fantastic job of building out her brand identity outside of just being a pop star through the success of her various fashion lines, Fenty Beauty, Savage, all of that stuff. [00:04:47] Has allowed her cool factor to like disseminate through culture without her necessarily releasing music. But I think the most important part when it comes to her returning to music is that unlike other pop stars of her generation, say like a Katie Perry, who definitely does not run on Cool factor, I think that Rihanna is appealing to pop's core fan base, which has shifted out of her specific generation. So like since Rihanna's released new music, like there's an entire new generation of pop fans that are now like the kind of core center of pop music that were very, very young last time that she released music. But I think Rihanna's cool factor. [00:05:28] I guess my hypothesis is that Rihanna's cool factor can allow for her to potentially be someone that they'd be interested in engaging with on new music in a way that they wouldn't, for somebody like Katie Perry or even someone like Lady Gaga, or even someone maybe even like Beyonce, I think that her cool factor creates the circumstances where perhaps people will still be engaged and interested in her releasing new music, despite the fact that it's been such a long time. [00:05:56] Dan Runcie: When do you feel like that cool factor emerged? Because I agree with you. I think there is something intrinsic about her that just pulls people in and thinking about her career, it's almost been 20 years now. She came on the scene as a teenager and, of course, I think that in the early years we do start to see a bit more of the record label created person, and you don't see as much of the personality, but over time you start to see that. [00:06:20] When do you think that shifted? Whoever's like, oh, here is the Rihanna that is showing us why she's the shit and other people aren't quite at that level. [00:06:30] Louie Mandelbaum: I would say there's three moments that really stand out to me, maybe four. the first is I do believe from the jump, she always had the coolest records from Pon de Replay on like Rihanna, Pon de Replay, SOS, Unfaithful. These were like very state of the art cutting edge, well-made. Cool pop songs. She always had that going for her. [00:06:53] I think from the jump, but I don't know if that necessarily translated into her celebrity persona. I think that began to emerge around her third record, which is 2007s Good Girl, Gone Bad. I think Umbrella kind of to me stands as like the moment where Rihanna went from sort of upstart to like true. [00:07:09] Kind of a-list Pop Star, that record is obviously widely considered to be one of the best pop songs of the 21st Century For Good Reason. It's an incredible song and something that really allowed her specific kind of reading nasally voice to like shine through and like she gave that song a Life that I think even other vocalists couldn't necessarily. [00:07:30] That was a song that famously like got passed around to Britney and Mary j Blige and acon and a lot of other artists. So it's really her plus this song that sort of came together and it was like her cool factor and her specific brand of Rihannaness that really made that song what it was. But I also think in a sort of, weirdly, maybe this is like a sticky and difficult or chewy idea. But I do think in the wake of what happened between her and Chris Brown, which was obviously like a horrific public experience, and you know, a very difficult thing for her to parse through. And for the public who, you know, were experiencing her at like one of many zeniths of her career, her experiencing this huge public, you. [00:08:16] Incident with her boyfriend. I think the way that she emerged out of that as this kind of like titanium, no fucks given sort of, brand of like pop heroin or anti heroin in some ways. I think that was the moment in which like the Rihanna persona really crystallized like somewhere between rated R and loud and the kind of caval kid of albums and songs that came after. [00:08:41] She emerged as this very specific brand of turn of the 2010s pop star who was kind of like middle finger in the air, like kind of gave off the air of like, I'm not even trying that hard, but like everything I do is amazing. Like that was another thing about her that I think really like codified her pop star. [00:09:00] Every pop star is working really hard. It's a very hard job. So I don't wanna make it sound like she's not doing that, but there was a way in which she made it feel. She wasn't even kind of trying and like everything she did was a smash, even though she was kind of like casual about it, she never gave off the air of someone that was just like gritting her teeth and working really hard in the way that like a lot of pop stars can seem. [00:09:22] So I think it was those combination of factors around that time, oh 9, 10, 11, that like the full embodiment of the Rihanna, like pop heroin slash anti heroin. I don't know exactly how to frame that, came into full, like being at that point. [00:09:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think another thing that happened right around that same timeframe was the accountant that she had and how she had almost went bankrupt from trusting someone that was very shady with her money too. And that's where I think a lot of that zero fucks given as well. You combine that, the Chris Brown, you know, domestic violence and abusing her and then. [00:10:02] That combination. Yeah. I do feel like by loud sonically we also started to hear a little bit, it almost felt like there was a bit more of like a tone in a oomph in some of the music there, which has been cool to see ever since. And I think like over time, she's just leaned more and more into that. And she also was someone who I think for every year, for up to at least the middle part of her career, she was releasing an album pretty much every year. [00:10:27] But then I feel like by the time that Anti comes around, Slowing down. She's starting to put more into her. And we kind of saw similar transitions with how Beyonce, maybe it started to do, releases that word bit more, you know, less of the general, here is what you're getting. But no, let me be a bit more myself and tap into something like what we saw with formation and the self-titled. [00:10:50] I think you started to see that a bit more with Rihanna and I feel like this. lines up with it as well. And I think another piece that I think about with her too is social media and just how we saw another side of that personality was just a bit how cutting and how, you know, direct she could be with people, whether it was her online, back and forth with Sierra, or even, I think there was one of the Kardashians, or maybe it was like Kendall Jenner had said something about, oh, That I hear this song played at the Rihanna concert, and then she's just like, then don't come if you don't want to hear that song. [00:11:23] And little things like that. It's just like, okay, all right, here we go. You know, throwing a little spice everywhere and slowly making people realize that this is who she is. [00:11:33] Louie Mandelbaum: Yeah, the social media thing is like definitely critical. I'm glad you brought that up because she kind of was like the peak celebrity of Peak Instagram, Twitter, years. Like she was the one that made it all like really enticing. I mean, her Instagram persona in the early 2010s was like the reason to be on Instagram. [00:11:52] And of course all of those clap backs. Our legendary and still cited it to this day. Another one of my favorites is like when some tabloid like tweeted something about, you know, something derogatory about her and she said something like, your pussy's too dry to be riding my dick like this, or something like that. [00:12:09] It was just, you know, we. I think that that was, first of all, she's very clever and smart and good at that stuff, so you can't fake that. But I do think the era of the social media celebrity has been all about creating an accessible persona or something that feels relatable as opposed to like the idea of pop stardom being something that's sort of like cordoned off or celestial or like, you know, something that is untouchable. [00:12:33] You know, the transition that pop has gone through in the 2010s has been toward stars that at least give the patina of relatability or accessibility. And I think her persona on social media and in tandem with the fact that she, I think the fact that she isn't a virtuoso in the way that Beyonce is so defined by her virtuosity created or helped kind of pave the way for the way that Pop stardom has evolved over the 2010s into something that's more about a brand of personality that feels accessible somewhat. [00:13:09] Like relatable, that they could be one of your friends that you know stuff about them, that they don't have to be perfect and manicured necessarily, even though that imperfection can be perfectly manicured in and of itself. But yes, no question about it. Those were all things that she played an integral role in creating that have only become bigger and more prominent aspects of pop stardom in the latter part of the 2010s as she's been kind of pulled back from pop music. [00:13:35] Dan Runcie: and it was interesting to hear you talk as well about the things that set her apart in thinking about the Super Bowl performance coming up. Because this is a stage where so many of the best performances lean into people that are the best performers or have that musical ability that transcends in a lot of ways and for her, even though that cool factor is something [00:13:57] Louie Mandelbaum: Remember Maroon five. [00:13:59] Dan Runcie: Oh man. It's funny, before listening to this, I was listening to where you had ranked a lot of them and I was like, I wonder where he has the maroon five one. And then eventually I was like, oh yeah, like, I'm sure it's closer to that one. I mean, we could talk about that one for a while. I do think that this rietta performance should be, better arrangement and spectacle than that one. [00:14:22] I am curious though, because of course, from a range of, let's say that, "The Who" or the Tom Petty. I mean, I wasn't as much of a fan of those, and I know you weren't either, but of course, Princeton, Beyonce are more of the highly regarded ones based on what you know about Rihanna and where you think she'll fit, where do you feel like this performance would likely end up in terms of where the, where she ranks compared to other halftime perform? [00:14:50] Louie Mandelbaum: Well, I'm awfully curious, Dan, because we haven't seen her do much in a long time, so it's definitely going to fill in some blanks and some curiosities that I think a lot of fans are wondering about where Rihanna is as a pop star and performer. Prior to kind of hanging up her pop star crown, let's say in like, you know, after the Anti tour, let's say in like 2017 or 2018. [00:15:12] She had made great strides as a live performer. I think early in her career she was sort of a weaker performer. Her vocals weren't that great live. She was kind of a listless dancer. Again, she pulled out a lot just based on her swag, but like she had made really huge strides in her performance ability and her vocal ability. [00:15:31] I mean, she was singing so well towards the, you know, end of the promo cycle for auntie when she was in her like Love on the Brain live performance era. I mean, she was shutting it down in a way that I never had imagined she would. She sounded amazing. So I'll be curious to know where her voice is. The thing is that Rihanna's going to do this in the Rihanna way, I would imagine, like, I just don't think, again, prince and Beyonce are two artists that are defined by virtuosity. [00:16:02] They are artists that you know are going to get on stage and be the Absolut. Apex of musicianship of performance ability. They're two of the greatest examples of those things in the most untouchable way possible. Rihanna's like a very different type of pop star. She kind of just gets on stage and grabs her dick, you know? [00:16:21] And like everyone's like, yeah. You know, so that's like what she does. So and I also want to pinpoint that again, and I've said this before, the things that she makes easy look easy or tossed off, or casual or not, like, don't be fooled like a lot of effort and thought and work goes into all of that with her. [00:16:40] So I would imagine we're gonna get some version of "the Rihanna thing" in a Super Bowl performance, which of course, every Super Bowl performance in the modern era is gonna be highly choreographed. It's gonna have massive production values, but I can't imagine her turning in something, again, even akin to like Jennifer Lopez and Shakira's, which is another one that I think is fantastic, but two other performers that are just like impeccable dancers, like super tight performers. [00:17:06] I have a feeling we're gonna get some version of like something that actually maybe relates a little bit more to a rock stars version of the Super Bowl. Not that she's gonna turn in like a Tom Petty-esque performance, but Rihanna can actually just stand there and sort of swag in a way that like, you know, your Beyonce's never gonna really do so. The question is, Is it gonna be up to snuff? I don't think anybody knows that. I think that's part of the fun of waiting for this thing is that we haven't seen her do anything in so long. She's had a baby. It'll be interesting to see like where she's at as a performer. I wish I knew more about it, but I'm just as curious as everybody else's. [00:17:47] But I would bank on the fact that someone of her pedigree and experience is going to turn in something epic and God knows like she's got the production budget and all of the help that she needs to like make that happen. So Rihanna can do a lot just by being Rihanna. So I would say that, I'm sure it's gonna be epic. [00:18:08] My guess is it will probably be epic, I guess. [00:18:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I do think that putting her in the top half of performances is a pretty safe bet, I think you could say. I think that comparing to the Prince or the Beyonce, to your point, I think there was so much that you expected from them based on what they're known for before going into it, that you already had that heightened expectation there. [00:18:31] With Rihanna, there's a lot more unknowns. Before this, I was going back and looking at, okay, what are the signature Rihanna performances that are out there. I was looking back at past VMA performances, past Grammy performances, and again, it's so long since you've seen some of those, so it's tough to compare. [00:18:48] And even some of those songs, I mean, she's doing some of the songs that she had done with Calvin Harris, which I'm sure we'll hear at the Super Bowl. But she's also done stuff from Anti that we just hadn't seen in that, you know, grand of a estate, at least in some of those, settings before. It'll be interesting to see. [00:19:06] I'm definitely expecting at least on the top half, but I've thought a lot about just the Super Bowl at all because you brought up the J Lo and Shakira one, which I do think was great on the performance perspective, just given where they are, and that was actually the first. Super Bowl that Rock Nation has done since they had took over as the lead to help the NFL with entertainment for the halftime show. [00:19:30] So that was the first one they had. Then they had the one with the weekend, and then you had last year the West Coast hip hop ensemble with Mary J. Blige and Eminem, Dr. Dre, Snoop, Kendrick and 50 cent was one of the guest acts there. And then you have this one with Rihanna. How do you feel like the Rock Nation era of the Super Bowl halftime show has been? [00:19:51] Louie Mandelbaum: Well, it's definitely been putting a focus on artists of color and artists that are, many artists that are adjacent to r and b and hip hop in a way that the previous iterations like touched on but weren't so focused on. So that's been really good and I think that's been needed and an important pivot. So that's been good. I think the J Lo and Shakira Super Bowl halftime show is one of my all-time top favorites. I think it was absolutely spectacular. They were both incredible and they both managed to make their like two six minute sets that they had to split up, like feel com comprehensive in this way that I was just like floored by. [00:20:26] It was just every moment of that was thrilling. So I love that one. I did not care very much for the weekend's performance. I thought I've never found him to be an incredibly compelling live performer, and I felt the same way about his Super Bowl performance. it just didn't do that much for me. [00:20:41] But I think he was a, a good choice. I mean, he's a massive superstar. He certainly deserved the slot and it made sense. And I thought last year's was great. I mean, I grew up in that era of hip hop, so seeing Dre, Mary J. Blige, Eminem, and Snoop Dogg. I'm never gonna be unhappy about that. And I thought they did a really nice job of threading those all together in a way that made sense. [00:21:05] And it felt like, you know, if you grew up on that music, like how are you not gonna love that? I don't know. It was hard to deny. But that was a very unconventional Super Bowl performance because in the last, let's say 10 to 15 years especially, they've become very codified as this. Artist Showcase for One superstar, they become this kind of like elite performance showcase for these upper echelon pop stars. [00:21:31] if you get that slot, it sort of says something about how culture sees you as, as we would say on my podcast, as like a top tier, pop star. So the last year one was definitelylike an anomalous one in the sense that it I guess it was a celebration of Dr. Dre's, you know, production work on some level, but it wasn't necessarily like the traditional pop star extravaganza that we were used to. [00:21:55] So they've tried things, which is nice, and I think it is nice to shake it up, but I am excited for it to be back to this like one artist sort career capstone thing because I think that that's been a really fun and fruitful mode for the Super Bowl halftime show. So I'd say they've done a good job and I think that I am, you know, I mean they landed Rihanna, which is like interesting considering that she had sworn off doing this because of Colin Kaepernick, which I know was another topic you wanna talk about, but clearly there's something that Rock Nation's involvement with this has. Changed in her mind about her willingness to participate with the NFL on this after she had pretty publicly said that she wouldn't. [00:22:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah, there's been a few things that Rock Nation has done here that I think have been good. I think that they were able to create themes around the event and try to tie in the location in some way, right? They had the Super Bowl in Miami, so they went deep on K. How can we get more music involved with Latin culture even though JLo herself is not from Miami? [00:23:01] That was the tie in there with her and Shakira, and I know that after watching J Lo's Netflix documentary, she was upset about the fact that she had [00:23:10] Louie Mandelbaum: yeah.  [00:23:11] Dan Runcie: to share the stage, not against Shakira, but just Kind of like you said the past decade before that, was this is a capstone on a singular pop star, and then here you have J Lo, and now she has to share the stage with someone else. [00:23:23] I know she was upset about that, [00:23:24] Louie Mandelbaum: Which she very easily could have done. She very easily could have done that. I just wanna put that out there. Like J Lo definitely could have held down a 13 minute halftime show by herself. [00:23:34] Dan Runcie: I think so too. I mean, we've just seen her perform at all these different settings and in so many hits in. people can have issues with her as a vocalist or things like that, but in terms of the performance, it was top notch. [00:23:45] So I'm with you on that one. And then with the weekend one, I do think that's the weakest of the ones. And there was less of a tie in, I forget the location of that Super Bowl specifically, but I know that, he had a huge years, the middle of the pandemic and the only person that was really like, you know, elevating as a superstar in the pandemic to a new level was him. [00:24:05] So I understood that. And then, yeah, the West Coast ensemble, that Super Bowl was in LA definitely didn't see it coming just from what we expected, but it was cool, and I do think that a lot of this speaks to the relationship piece and this taps into maybe a bit of that factor about why. They were able to get Rihanna in a way that they may not have been able to get her in 2016, 2017. [00:24:28] I think of course, when they had done that, this was right after Colin Kaepernick was kneeling and the league had a lot of heightened f a lot of people were heightenedly frustrated with the league because of not only its stance on police brutality, but this was also a moment where the league's relationship with domestic violence was getting more underlied. [00:24:49] It was only a couple of years after the Ray Rice incident. The concussion discussions were more and more, the NFL, at least from a public perception place, was probably in its lowest point that I could remember, at least in my lifetime, in that mid 2010s era. So to ask Rihanna then was rough. And I think another thing too that stuck out to me with how Rock Nation went about things, Jay-Z had said this in one of the press conferences that the NFL would ask three of these artists at the same time if they wanted to do the show. So then if someone comes back and then someone says yes before then now you have to go rescind the offer to the other person that said yes, which is a very. Bad way to go about this, especially if you tarnish relationships with things like that. [00:25:33] So I've always kept that in my mind, like if there's certain artists that haven't done it yet and you're like, oh, why hasn't this artist done it? Part of me wonder, is it because they like asked three people to do it and then two of them said yes, and then now they need to go, you know, renege on a deal with someone. [00:25:48] So I knew that Jay-Z was very deliberate about, we ask one person at a time, and then if that person says yes, then great. But if that person says no, then you move on to the next person. It sounds so obvious, but that's how they did it. And at least I had heard close to, some sources that told me that Rihanna was the first choice that they had for this year. [00:26:07] And then she said yes. So that was cool to see. And yeah, I mean, I think it speaks to it as well. Jay-Z obviously had signed, Rihanna's, her first record deal with, Def Jam. She was with Rock Nation. After that, they've always been in business together. So it was cool to see [00:26:24] Louie Mandelbaum: Well, I think part of the problem too is that there's like, we're running out of these superstars who are deserving of this capstone performance. Like there really only is like a handful of those super, super top tier pop stars that haven't done it at this point. It's like Rihanna was an obvious one. [00:26:40] Taylor is obviously one that's sitting out there, I'm sure. Ariana could probably do one at this point. There's like a handful of them left in the mix. But like Drake, drake, absolutely. But there's not that many and you know, there's a whole, you know, extra conversation we could be having right now about the state of pop stardom and how we aren't minting superstars in the same way that we used to do it. [00:27:04] But I think that was another reason why perhaps they felt the need to shake up the format a little bit, including with last year. And maybe even with the Shakira and JLo one and find ways to like do other versions of this because there really aren't, like we've burned through the like a-list pop stars, really, like a lot of them have already done this, so it'll be interesting to see if they continue to kind of like mix it up or like, you know, [00:27:32] hopefully like Billy Eilish and Little Nas X and Olivia Rodrigo, like just really turn it out over the next four or five years so that they're ready, like, you know, in the mid to late 2010s, 2020s to take over for the Super Bowl. halftime show life. I don't know. We'll see. But maybe we are gonna get like more of these. [00:27:49] different themed ones or mis mix and mashups. I mean, that's how they used to be like in the early 2010, early two thousands when MTV was doing them prior to Janet's situation. they were doing these kind of like huge ones, like people don't remember, but like Janet's Super Bowl performance was not like the ones that we get now from superstars, even though obviously she could certainly have done. She did two or three songs, really you got Nelly and Kid Rock and I mean, Justin Timberlake, like a panoply of other artists were involved in those shows. So they used to be more of like a smorgasboard, or at least sometimes they would be kind of like these conglomerations of sometimes very loosely connected stars. [00:28:33] Louie Mandelbaum: There was  [00:28:33] Dan Runcie: Did you like those MTV halftime shows?  [00:28:35] Louie Mandelbaum: And No Doubt. I mean, they were incredibly chaotic. Like I just think that they were so random. But yeah, I mean, they had their own charms. Like there was the one year that was like Aerosmith and Britney and Nsync, and Nelly and . I mean, they were fucking weird, but like they had their own charms, I guess. [00:28:52] But just a different kind of show, I guess. [00:28:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah, going back and watching some of those, the fact that Nelly did two Super Bowls is [00:29:00] Louie Mandelbaum: I know it's so weird. [00:29:01] Dan Runcie: thinking about that moment, right? But.  [00:29:04] Louie Mandelbaum: the two Super Bowl clubs is like Justin Timberlake, Beyonce, and Nelly. [00:29:12] Dan Runcie: I know, right. And maybe Tony Bennett did like one or two from the older ones if I remember correctly. But yeah, [00:29:18] Louie Mandelbaum: No, 90s ones are fucking psychotic. The nineties ones are like out of their minds. Truly like, Chaka Khan, I think like doing like Indiana Jones and Indiana, it was like psychedelic fever dreams. Or maybe it was Patti LaBelle, not Chaka, Patti LaBelle doing Indiana Jones, like themed Super Bowl Halftime performance is one of the weirdest things I've ever seen in my life. [00:29:44] Dan Runcie: Man, and it just makes you think about how far this show has come along and I think to that, even if we see these ensembles, I like the fact that there will be a bit of a theme to them moving forward. And I think there are so many creative things you can do. And I'm also curious to see how the show will continue to shape with the sponsor that's leading it because I feel like that's another element to this. This is Apple Music's first year. As the primary sponsor for the show after Pepsi had had it for the past decade, and we knew that Pepsi chose not to renew. They wanted to put more money into digital, and Apple was willing to pay more for the show. And I know that a lot of these streaming services are trying to get into the livestream business. [00:30:30] Apple was one of the more public companies I was trying to get NFL Sunday tickets. So there's always this association, both with music and entertainment that they've wanted to do to try to essentially sell more AirPods, sell more iPhones or whatever the exposure ends up getting them. [00:30:46] But I am curious to see, is there gonna be any type of integration or any other type of thing that we'll see that is a shift because I feel like this Pepsi era gave us so many of these singular pop star capstone shows. I feel like I think about Beyonce when I think about the Pepsi era of Super Bowl halftime shows. [00:31:02] What will this Apple Music one look like? I'm not sure, but what do you think? Is there anything that you expect to see moving forward now that it's kind of new chapter, new sponsor, [00:31:12] Louie Mandelbaum: Like Rihanna just like comes out wearing a pair of AirPods or like, I don't know, like she she sits down at like a MacBook Air and like in the middle of the stage. yeah, I don't know. That's a good question. I think, well, what's interesting maybe that you were making me think about earlier is that clearly having an artist like Jay-Z involved and Rock Nation involved is gonna be like a more artist friendly way to program these things that's gonna like value, cuz Jay-Z is a music artist, so he's gonna have some form of respect for the people he's booking. I think part of the issue sometimes here is that this is such a huge opportunity. This is the biggest stage in media for any star to get a chance to do this. Is such a huge moment in their career that I can understand why, like prior to Jay-Z. The NFL or whoever was programming these things in the past, like felt like they had all the power . Cause really there's very few opportunities in media. Where like someone like Beyonce feels like, oh, I should do this. [00:32:12] I mean, Beyonce barely does anything at this point. Like there's very few things that would feel like she didn't have the power in every situation. I was just reading an article the other day about how like the Grammys are so desperate to have her perform, but of course like why would she, I don't know what would be like, what would be the benefit of that to her at this point? [00:32:27] So the Super Bowl was really one of the last remaining things that feels like. Oh, like this is exposure that like you get once in a lifetime and it's so humongous. So I can see how that power dynamic works in terms of like what Apple's gonna do versus Pepsi. I don't know if I have any clearer thoughts on like how it's gonna be different except to say that like, again, perhaps Apple is like more of like, in the music industry, like is like more part of the music industry in some way. [00:32:54] They obviously like have been an integral part of like music consumption for the last 10 or 15 years. Whereas like Pepsi, like, you know, aside from like their iconic ads, like really, anyway, Pepsi's not exactly like, you know, music driven necessarily in the same way, so maybe that's gonna have an effect. Do you have any thoughts on that? I'm not totally sure. [00:33:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I'm not a hundred percent sure either, I do feel like apple's Dream would probably be to be able to have some type of live stream where you could watch it directly through Apple Music if you're on your computer or if you're on your phone or something like that. I know that the networks that broadcasters show are probably holding onto those rights and want them exclusively, whether it's Fox NBC, CBS, so I don't know if that would actually happen, but I'm sure it's something that they want just thinking about where things go. but beyond that, it'll be interesting to see. It's something I'm definitely gonna be looking out for, but I think it's still a little early to put any predictions on that. One thing you did say though, that was, that touched on something that I was thinking about earlier was just where the Super Bowl sits within pop culture within media and its importance because I do think that for a long time. We always thought of this as, yes, this is the biggest stage in entertainment, and I still do think, especially for a US artist, I think this is still the biggest stage that you could have, but thinking about someone like Beyonce, I think most people would probably look at the past 10 years and say, okay, Beyonce did perform the Super Bowl twice, and what's her signature performance of the past 10 years? [00:34:27] it was her Coachella performance and that's probably not something that we could have said about a artist 10 years before that, cuz I know Coachella has just grew and grew and definitely became an even bigger thing the past decade plus. And I'm now thinking, okay, in this next decade with where things are going, even just now where the Super Bowl sits, how are things shifting? [00:34:49] Is the Premier Music Festival and doing a great performance there, especially since they're now all being live streamed. Could that ever rival or get even close? Are there other types of opportunities that are engine closer? I feel like the Super Bowl probably will always still have that stranglehold just because of how many eyeballs you get, but that's something I've been thinking about, just how these things are shifting and what that may look like. [00:35:13] Louie Mandelbaum: Well, there's no comparing giving somebody a two hour concert to like do the most in the way that Beyonce obviously like now, has defined the most that you could possibly do with that. And of course that is her most well regarded performance ever. And like probably the. Most well regarded live performance of all time question mark. [00:35:33] So no question about that compared to like getting 15 minutes, but. There's the amount of people that are watching the Super Bowl is unmatched. Like no matter how many people are watching that Coachella live stream, like for instance, my parents, my parents still haven't seen Homecoming like they're not big Beyonce people, but my parents see every single Super Bowl halftime performance like, so I still think it's one of the rare instances where monoculture like still exists. [00:36:00] It's like one of the only things I mean I watched the Super Bowl and I could care less about sports. I have zero interest in football. I've never watched another game the entire year, but like I'm there like, you know, with it on mute until , until the halftime show happens. So it is one of the rare instances where monoculture still exists and people still tune in and you're still getting in front of people. [00:36:24] like for better or worse, the people that are watching Coachella are people that are already having some sort of interest in the artists that are performing there. This show puts you in front of a large group of people that like may not give a shit about you and wouldn't like choose to watch you perform even on the Grammys or anything like that, but there you are, so I think it is a level of exposure and a reminder to people and I think the way that these songs burn up streaming charts and Apple,you know, iTune store charts immediately following this, like, the artist that performs at these shows, like tends to like, have humongous streaming and, you know, download boosts following the show bears out that like you're getting in front of people that like just wouldn't seek you out in other instances. [00:37:06] And we have so few examples at this point of like actual monoculturelike functioning in this way, but I do think the Super Bowl is one of the rare moments where that still does happen. [00:37:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, you're right. And I think too, just thinking about how media has changed, especially since the pandemic, if anything, all the other stuff from a broadcast perspective, people are watching less and less, and that's becoming more niche in the N FL even compared to other sports is still the dominant thing. [00:37:36] So I think the Super Bowl, if anything, is probably just having more and more importance from that perspective. So I think it'll always be number one there. You brought up the thing about the bounce and the impact. [00:37:45] Louie Mandelbaum: And prestige. I mean, I think the other thing is just the prestige of the, of getting chosen for it is also something really important. Like yes, getting a Coachella headlining spot is like a big deal, but like people who wouldn't get. Super Bowl head. Letting spots yet like a Billy Eilish last year are still gonna get that Coachella slot like getting that Super Bowl slot is a badge of like honor and confirmation of your like superstar, A-list legendary hall of fame status as a pop figure in a way that like very few other things can coordinate in this day and age, I don't think. [00:38:21] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, that's a good point. And I think the other point you mentioned too, about the impact that this show has, of course, the week after the Super Bowl or the day after the Super Bowl, we'll see the streaming numbers or the downloads or even the record sales. But I think the thing that I've paid more attention to is some of the ways that these artists are making even more money from their tours or other things like that looking at someone like the Weeknd, he goes from performing in arenas to performing in stadiums and having one of the biggest tours of the year and even last year's West Coast hip hop ensemble. I think Mary J. Blige had the biggest tour that she had had. Dr. Dre, I know he didn't go on tour, but he just sold some of his music and maybe some of the high end interests there could have helped. [00:39:04] And even Snoop Dogg sold a bunch of NFTs afterward and launched his record label that was aligned with this. And if we could think about Rihanna who hasn't released music in seven years, what do we think this next year post Super Bowl will look like? Do you think we'll get a tour? You think there'll be a collaboration? [00:39:22] Do you think we'll finally get that album? [00:39:25] Louie Mandelbaum: I hope so. I mean, I tend to wonder like why she would be doing this if it wasn't to set something up because it doesn't seem like she has interest in just sort of like maintaining like she hasn't done anything in so long that I don't know why she would just do this, like randomly. So one has to imagine that this is the kickoff to an era of some sort. God knows she could launch a humongous tour without having a new album, and I think it would be massively successful like I wonder if Rihanna could play stadiums at this point. Just doing kind of what seems to be the new trend with all the girlies right now, which is doing their greatest hits. That's like Taylor's doing that. [00:40:04] Madonna just announced that she's doing that. I mean, Rihanna could certainly be like, Hey, you know, let me perform my greatest hits, which also constitute like the 25 best singles of the last, you know, 23 years or whatever. So like I have to imagine that it's setting something up. I don't know what to say about the album. [00:40:25] I mean, like I feel like I'd be getting in front of myself to say that she's gonna release something because she's really been adverse to releasing new music, and I wonder if there's anxiety about reentering a streaming marketplace that has changed quite a bit even since 2016. As I mentioned earlier, as much as I do think she has the capacity to appeal to the current pop fan base, cross section. She is certainly, you know, eight years has gone by, like, you know, things have really changed. I wonder if there's like trepidation about like how to work this system. I mean, you look at some of these seasoned pop acts, like even Beyonce. Like Beyonce did well with Renaissance. I mean, she did nothing to promote it, which is like a whole other conversation we could have about that. [00:41:14] But like, you know, the record sold well but isn't doing numbers like Taylor's doing and you know, isn't the sort of like jugg, you know, A-list, A-list, A-list juggernaut that like Bad Bunny is, or that, you know, some of like the new Vanguard of pop stars are. So I wonder if there's a feeling on Rihanna's part in terms of like someone who's had a career that's churn so much on. [00:41:38] A cavalcade of number one hit singles over and over and over and again. Album after album, after album, after album. About like how she's supposed to work that. Exactly. Cuz things have just changed so much and the guard has changed. And so that's a long-winded way to say I don't. No, if you had a gun to my head, I would say tour an album or forthcoming as a result of this, or like on the back of this. [00:42:05] I can't imagine that there isn't. But I will remind people that in 2013 when Beyonce did the Super Bowl, she didn't announce any, like there was nothing new happening. Later that year in December, almost a full year later, she dropped the self-titled album Out of the Sky, but, It felt like that performance just sort of existed in a vacuum when it happened, so it's not as if that doesn't happen. [00:42:28] So it's a little bit hard to say, but if she was smart, I would say given the amount of years that have gone by and how much like she could use of refocusing on the music and that the Super Bowl's gonna give that to her, I would hope that she's using this as some sort of direct launchpad. [00:42:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah, my prediction is Tour. Yes. Album maybe. And the album point is in large part for some of the reasons that you mentioned too, because the last album, I believe there was a botched release with Anti, I think it leaked [00:43:00] early on title cuz I think it was a early release or something like that. It was messy and I know that she was pissed about that and I'm sure that many fans were too And. [00:43:10] People can't escape leaks. I mean, Renaissance leaked early. these things are still happening. And to your point, yeah, there's a whole new system on how these things are being done. And SZA, she's someone who I think kind of perfected this system, but she's with a record label that has. Literally adapted its strategy to be able to understand how to perfect this thing. [00:43:31] And she had this whole waterfall release thing and you need singles leading up to it to kind of make that happen and Rihanna hasn't released music recently, so there's so many things that would need to happen before anyone would really expect, okay, boom, day after the Super Bowl, here's an album. [00:43:46] Like I do not think that's gonna  [00:43:48] Louie Mandelbaum: Two things. One is that, I don't know though, cause here, two thoughts I'm having. One is you are right about the anti rollout and it wasn't just the leaks that were the problem. There was a series of underperforming lead singles that led that record off until they landed on work. It was, you know, Bitch Better Had My Money, didn't crack the top 10. There was. You know, the, kind of weird Lucy with Kanye and Paul McCartney. I mean, there was like, you know, a series of singles that like, didn't quite do the job that like usually Rihanna lead singles were doing at that moment where every single one you could to a number basically were like generation defining smash hits. [00:44:25] So that's one element of it, but I kind of think the the SZA thing is an interesting comparison to me because yes, SZA released singles before the record came out, but like Shirt didn't catch fire in the same way that Kill Bill has since the album came out. And there's a big thing now with records that come out where. [00:44:44] Fans pick the hit, you know, you dump the record and fans, I mean, it's the same thing that's happened with Cuff It on some level. Like yes, you know, Break My Soul, hit number one, but Cuff, it's actually been a bigger hit than Break My Soul. If you go look at Spotify numbers, it's got more streams. It's a bigger song. [00:44:58] It's got it got the organic TikTok element that came into play. If she had done literally anything to promo it, if she had performed it or made a music video, I'm sure that song could have hit number one easily. But of course, that's a whole other thing about why Beyonce is doing nothing to promo any of this, but I think Rihanna might benefit from removing herself in the same way that Beyonce did with her self-titled Record and Lemonade. [00:45:24] To some degree, I guess, formation notwithstanding from the sort of like trying to find a lead single prior to dropping an album. I think Rihanna's in a phase, especially with Anti, which is her most critically well regarded work, an album that I think like expanded the possibilities for Rihanna being like a sophisticated and intriguing albums artist to come forth with a full record and sort of like see what catches fire from there might actually be a better strategy for her than trying to locate. In a boardroom, like a single that's gonna function like an umbrella or only girl in the world or whatever. Cuz this marketplace is just way more fickle and difficult to figure that out in than it was during her peak era. [00:46:06] So I actually think her dropping an album like literally after the Super Bowl with no notice, like, could be actually like a pretty effective strategy. But again, I don't know that she's gonna do that, but I'm just pontificating on like what I think could work for her. I actually think that might be a better strategy than like doing some more traditional rollout. [00:46:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it'll be fascinating to see. I mean, there's so many unknowns to the same way where I think even before Beyonce reformed, we kind of had an idea of what to expect. we don't know what to expect in a lot of ways, so I'm excited for that. But, Louie, before we let you go, let's make a prediction. [00:46:39] So we talked a little bit about maybe some future ensembles that we could see, or some artists that we could see perform. who do you think would perform, I don't wanna just say next year, because that might be a bit too. Keeping it contained, but what is a artist or a mix of artists that you could see doing the halftime show in the next couple of years? [00:46:58] Louie Mandelbaum: I think the obvious answer is like Taylor is obviously going to do this at some point. It's actually like somewhat surprising to me that she wasn't doing it this year. She's having a massive year. This record is gigantic. She has her biggest hit in a long time. This album is a juggernaut in a mainstream way for the first time in like, you know, a series of interesting kind of career diversions that were all huge. [00:47:20] But like, this is definitely like, feels like a big, big moment for her. And she is such a classic Super Bowl artist, not in maybe the Rock Nation era, but she is white country, you know, blonde, critical darling, rock bonafides, like whatever, like, so it's truly surprising that she hasn't done it yet again, Ariana seems like another obvious one. [00:47:41] At some point, I'm assuming Ariana's gonna come forth with a new record. She's due. It's been, I think, Two and a half years or something since her last album. So one has to imagine she's due for a new era soon. She feels like she's of the caliber and of the stature at this point to do one of these by herself. [00:47:57] So those seem like two obvious superstars. And Drake, I think Drake is on the other one. You brought him up. He's obviously seems like a slam dunk. You know, generational superstar. Literally, I don't know how he'd pick the hits, which is another thing with Rihanna, like how's she gonna pick what she performs in terms of like groupings of artists? [00:48:15] I think that's really interesting. I mean, I wonder like what a version of like the MTV format would like look like in the modern era like how could you like bring a group of artists together? Again, the Dre thing was really an interesting sort of like roll of the dice on that idea, but I'm wondering like how you might do that. In other contexts, like, I'm trying to think of like other rap crews, like obviously the other ones that comes to mind like, ha, why hasn't Jay himself done it yet? I mean that's an interesting one to me too. I know Jay famously said, you know, I don't need the Super Bowl, but now he is intrically involved in the Super Bowl. [00:48:53] He feels like another obvious artist and obviously someone that could like kind of corral and very interesting stable of guests. So. it's like Jay-Z and Friends seems like it could be an interesting one. Unfortunately, we've lost another obvious either co headliner or headliner himself in Kanye who was now radioactive and would never get the slot anymore. [00:49:12] I don't think so. He's someone that certainly deserves it on a musical front, but like I think is just, you know, persona non grata in most spaces at this point. And. I don't know. I'm trying to think of like good groupings. Do you have any ideas of like, what could be like a thematic grouping? [00:49:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I mean, it's funny, I was just looking here at some of the upcoming locations to see if that could give us any clues. But before I get there, you brought up a few things that I was thinking about the Taylor thing. I agree with you. I think that will happen. I think she's waiting until all of the re-recording come out. [00:49:45] So I don't think 1989 [00:49:47] Taylor's version came out. I don't think that Reputation Taylor's version came out. So I think once those come out and she's like, yes, you can play all my non-Scooter Braun owned music wherever you want after that, then I think [00:49:59] she'll do it. so I think she's kind of waiting there.  [00:50:02] Louie Mandelbaum: Yeah. I think  [00:50:03] Dan Runcie: do it. I don't think that I mean, there's no Super Bowl team in Canada, so there's no tie in there, but I wanna see him do it. I mean, I've been a fan of his for a while, but some upcoming locations. So you have this one in Arizona. The next one is in, Las Vegas, and then the one after that is in New Orleans. [00:50:19] New Orleans could be interesting. I feel like, you know, a whole bunch of, you know, culture with vibe there. I don't know. what artists necessarily, I know you have a lot of, hip hop [00:50:27] Louie Mandelbaum: Big Freedia Super Bowl halftime show when? [00:50:30] Dan Runcie: Big Freedia would be something, oh man, I feel like they'll do something with that. Assume that, you know, rock Nation is still involved. I feel like we'll get something cultural there. But, the one person that I do wanna say, and I think you mentioned this on a podcast as well, I think I love Bruno Mars as a performer. It was too early though, and I think you're right about that like he performed before Uptown Funk, before 24K magic. [00:50:54] And I think that he may have done like a snippet of those songs at the Coldplay one that he guested it on with Beyonce. But no, [00:51:01] we have a  [00:51:01] Louie Mandelbaum: whole next.  [00:51:02] Yeah. He did Uptown Funk. I. [00:51:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, we have a whole next set of those to do. And maybe if it's too bland to do him again, maybe you mix him with someone else or something like that, you know, him and Cardi B have done a few songs, like something like that could be kind of cool. [00:51:16] Louie Mandelbaum: Yeah. What about Nicki and Cardi? I mean, like we haven't had a female rapper headline on her own. [00:51:22] Dan Runcie: I mean, can you get those two in a room though? [00:51:25] Louie Mandelbaum: No, not together. Not together. Not together. I mean like what about one or the other? I mean, Cardi, maybe not, but Nicki certainly is a generation defining pop artist who like certainly deserves her own show. I think that'd be an interesting choice. I think the New Orleans one is really interesting because you're like, all right, you could have like Wayne as like one of the primary headliners of that, you know, and then you could like mix in. [00:51:50] I don't know, like other famous, you know, there's so many famous New Orleans artists. You could do like a Cash Money, Drake, Wayne, Nicki,  [00:52:01] Dan Runcie: That would be special. That would be special. [00:52:04] Louie Mandelbaum: Mm-hmm. [00:52:05] Dan Runcie: All right. Well, we're calling that now. That's our prediction. We'll have to check back, but that's our prediction for when is this? February 2025. So two years from now, Drake, Nicki, and [00:52:14] Wayne. The Cash  [00:52:15] Louie Mandelbaum: Right on. We'll have to check in about. That seems like an obvious good one. I mean, honestly, great show I That would be amazing. [00:52:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, that would be something that would be good. But no, Louie, this was so much fun. Thank you again for coming on and for the folks that are listening and want to hear more about how you break down pop artists, where should they go? [00:52:35] Louie Mandelbaum: They should subscribe to Pop Pantheon wherever you get your podcasts. It's really a taxonomy of pop stardom. We take them all one by one. We have really in-depth discussions about their careers and disc photographies, and then we rank them in a series of tears called the Pop Pantheon. So if you are interested in pop music, I think it's both informative and fun and smart and stupid at the same time. So if you like to talk about pop music and to overanalyze it as we do, follow us at wherever you get your podcast, Pop Pantheon, and also we're on Instagram and Twitter at Pop Pantheon pod. And I'm @DJLOUIEXIV on Instagram and Twitter. [00:53:18] Dan Runcie: Awesome. Great stuff. Thank you. Appreciate it.  Wed, 08 Feb 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Rihanna, Roc Nation, and the Super Bowl Halftime Show (with DJ Louie XIV) full Dan Runcie The biggest stage in music is still the Super Bowl Halftime Show. In 2023, that stage belongs to Rihanna. This is a noteworthy show for multiple reasons. Rihanna hasn’t released an album since 2016’s ANTI, which was a TIDAL exclusive! Seven years is a long time. She has since built two billion-dollar brands with Fenty Beauty and Savage X Fenty, and recently became a mother. Could this be the start of a music comeback for RiRi? A few years ago, Rihanna famously turned down this opportunity citing her support of Colin Kaepernick. But that was before Jay Z’s Roc Nation entered into an agreement with the NFL to produce the show in 2019. That relationship — Jay signed Rihanna to her first record deal at 16 — likely patched things up. This performance is also noteworthy since it's Apple Music’s first year as sponsor, taking over from Pepsi’s decade long-run.   To unpack it all, I brought on Louie Mandelbaum aka DJ Louie XIV. He’s a pop music connoisseur and breaks down the genre on his Pop Pantheon podcast. Here’s what we covered on the episode:  [1:38] How Rihanna has stayed relevant without releasing music [4:49] Factors behind Rihanna’s cool factor [13:18] Where will Rihanna’s performance rank among Super Bowl halftime performances? [18:03] Evaluating Roc Nation as halftime show producers [26:47] “Chaotic” MTV-era producing halftime shows  [28:59] Apple Music’s impact as first-time show sponsor [32:52] Is performing at the Super Bowl still the biggest stage? [37:15] Is Rihanna finally returning to music? [45:32] Predicting future Super Bowl performers Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Louie Mandelbaum, @DJLouieXIV This episode was brought to you by trac. Learn more about how artists can bring web2 and web3 together for their fans at trac.co Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Louie Mandelbaum: I would say there's three moments that really stand out to me, maybe four. the first is I do believe from the jump, she always had the coolest records from Pon de Replay on like Rihanna, Pon de Replay, SOS, Unfaithful. These were like very state of the art cutting edge, well-made. Cool pop songs. She always had that going for her. [00:00:23] I think from the jump, but I don't know if that necessarily translated into her celebrity persona. I think that began to emerge around her third record, which is 2007s Good Girl, Gone Bad. I think Umbrella kind of to me stands as like the moment where Rihanna went from sort of upstart to like true. [00:00:39] Kind of a-list Pop Star, that record is obviously widely considered to be one of the best pop songs of the 21st Century For Good Reason.  [00:01:15] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is a Super Bowl special. This is all about Rihanna, the halftime show, and how this show has evolved over the past few years. I was joined by DJ Louis the 14th, who is the host of the Pop Pantheon podcast, and him and I talked all about what do we expect from Rihanna? This is the first big music thing that she's done in quite a few years. [00:01:35] What do we think? Where this show will sit in terms of other performances that have been historic in the Super Bowl, this is now gonna be the fourth Super Bowl that Rock Nation has done. What do we think about the job that they've done? This is the first year for Apple Music. How have they been doing and what do we think we'll expect from them moving forward? [00:01:53] And also, We all know about the Super Bowl bounce, what artists do the year after the show. So what do we expect from Rihanna for the next couple of years after the show? What do we expect to see from the show moving forward? And we make some predictions at the end on who we think would be some dope Super Bowl performances that we could likely end up seeing in the next couple of years. [00:02:14] Here's the episode. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:16] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have the pop culture expert himself, DJ Louie the 14th here with us. Today he's hosted the Pop Pantheon podcast, and he was the best person that I had that I wanted to talk about this upcoming Super Bowl halftime show with the one and only Rihanna. So Louie, we're talking a little bit before we recorded just about her and how, I know she's someone that you can riff on for a while, but it would be good to start with where this fits with Rihanna's career right now, because she's someone that, I think it's almost gonna be seven years since Anti came out at this point, that at least the Super Bowl halftime show would've happened. I know she had the Black Panther song, but it's been so long since she's released new music, but she's still stayed so current. [00:03:04] What do you think it is about her that just keeps that. [00:03:08] Louie Mandelbaum: Dan. Thank you so much for having me on the show. So glad to be speaking with you. What I think is Rihanna's number one currency as a pop star, you know, like lots of pop stars have sort of a thing that. Is the engine behind their stardom, you know, for someone like Taylor Swift for instance, I would say it's her songwriting chops. [00:03:28] That's like the thing that everybody turns to about her. For Beyonce, it's kind of her epic performance abilities. Like, not to say they don't have other attributes that, you know are working towards their success, but they're sort of like a main thing with all of them. I tend to think, and to me Rihanna's has always been her cool factor, like Rihanna is the coolest pop star of her generation, and she's never been the most traditionally talented at any of like the musical aspects of all of it. Like she's not like a generational songwriter. She's not a particularly like gifted dancer, you know, she's a very distinctive, but not traditionally powerful vocalist necessarily. [00:04:13] So Rihanna's thing has always been that she is genuinely cool, like in a way that isn't put on or try hard in any sort of way. And I think that allows her to have a certain amount of interest in everything that she does, even when she's not making music. And of course, she's done a really fantastic job of building out her brand identity outside of just being a pop star through the success of her various fashion lines, Fenty Beauty, Savage, all of that stuff. [00:04:47] Has allowed her cool factor to like disseminate through culture without her necessarily releasing music. But I think the most important part when it comes to her returning to music is that unlike other pop stars of her generation, say like a Katie Perry, who definitely does not run on Cool factor, I think that Rihanna is appealing to pop's core fan base, which has shifted out of her specific generation. So like since Rihanna's released new music, like there's an entire new generation of pop fans that are now like the kind of core center of pop music that were very, very young last time that she released music. But I think Rihanna's cool factor. [00:05:28] I guess my hypothesis is that Rihanna's cool factor can allow for her to potentially be someone that they'd be interested in engaging with on new music in a way that they wouldn't, for somebody like Katie Perry or even someone like Lady Gaga, or even someone maybe even like Beyonce, I think that her cool factor creates the circumstances where perhaps people will still be engaged and interested in her releasing new music, despite the fact that it's been such a long time. [00:05:56] Dan Runcie: When do you feel like that cool factor emerged? Because I agree with you. I think there is something intrinsic about her that just pulls people in and thinking about her career, it's almost been 20 years now. She came on the scene as a teenager and, of course, I think that in the early years we do start to see a bit more of the record label created person, and you don't see as much of the personality, but over time you start to see that. [00:06:20] When do you think that shifted? Whoever's like, oh, here is the Rihanna that is showing us why she's the shit and other people aren't quite at that level. [00:06:30] Louie Mandelbaum: I would say there's three moments that really stand out to me, maybe four. the first is I do believe from the jump, she always had the coolest records from Pon de Replay on like Rihanna, Pon de Replay, SOS, Unfaithful. These were like very state of the art cutting edge, well-made. Cool pop songs. She always had that going for her. [00:06:53] I think from the jump, but I don't know if that necessarily translated into her celebrity persona. I think that began to emerge around her third record, which is 2007s Good Girl, Gone Bad. I think Umbrella kind of to me stands as like the moment where Rihanna went from sort of upstart to like true. [00:07:09] Kind of a-list Pop Star, that record is obviously widely considered to be one of the best pop songs of the 21st Century For Good Reason. It's an incredible song and something that really allowed her specific kind of reading nasally voice to like shine through and like she gave that song a Life that I think even other vocalists couldn't necessarily. [00:07:30] That was a song that famously like got passed around to Britney and Mary j Blige and acon and a lot of other artists. So it's really her plus this song that sort of came together and it was like her cool factor and her specific brand of Rihannaness that really made that song what it was. But I also think in a sort of, weirdly, maybe this is like a sticky and difficult or chewy idea. But I do think in the wake of what happened between her and Chris Brown, which was obviously like a horrific public experience, and you know, a very difficult thing for her to parse through. And for the public who, you know, were experiencing her at like one of many zeniths of her career, her experiencing this huge public, you. [00:08:16] Incident with her boyfriend. I think the way that she emerged out of that as this kind of like titanium, no fucks given sort of, brand of like pop heroin or anti heroin in some ways. I think that was the moment in which like the Rihanna persona really crystallized like somewhere between rated R and loud and the kind of caval kid of albums and songs that came after. [00:08:41] She emerged as this very specific brand of turn of the 2010s pop star who was kind of like middle finger in the air, like kind of gave off the air of like, I'm not even trying that hard, but like everything I do is amazing. Like that was another thing about her that I think really like codified her pop star. [00:09:00] Every pop star is working really hard. It's a very hard job. So I don't wanna make it sound like she's not doing that, but there was a way in which she made it feel. She wasn't even kind of trying and like everything she did was a smash, even though she was kind of like casual about it, she never gave off the air of someone that was just like gritting her teeth and working really hard in the way that like a lot of pop stars can seem. [00:09:22] So I think it was those combination of factors around that time, oh 9, 10, 11, that like the full embodiment of the Rihanna, like pop heroin slash anti heroin. I don't know exactly how to frame that, came into full, like being at that point. [00:09:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think another thing that happened right around that same timeframe was the accountant that she had and how she had almost went bankrupt from trusting someone that was very shady with her money too. And that's where I think a lot of that zero fucks given as well. You combine that, the Chris Brown, you know, domestic violence and abusing her and then. [00:10:02] That combination. Yeah. I do feel like by loud sonically we also started to hear a little bit, it almost felt like there was a bit more of like a tone in a oomph in some of the music there, which has been cool to see ever since. And I think like over time, she's just leaned more and more into that. And she also was someone who I think for every year, for up to at least the middle part of her career, she was releasing an album pretty much every year. [00:10:27] But then I feel like by the time that Anti comes around, Slowing down. She's starting to put more into her. And we kind of saw similar transitions with how Beyonce, maybe it started to do, releases that word bit more, you know, less of the general, here is what you're getting. But no, let me be a bit more myself and tap into something like what we saw with formation and the self-titled. [00:10:50] I think you started to see that a bit more with Rihanna and I feel like this. lines up with it as well. And I think another piece that I think about with her too is social media and just how we saw another side of that personality was just a bit how cutting and how, you know, direct she could be with people, whether it was her online, back and forth with Sierra, or even, I think there was one of the Kardashians, or maybe it was like Kendall Jenner had said something about, oh, That I hear this song played at the Rihanna concert, and then she's just like, then don't come if you don't want to hear that song. [00:11:23] And little things like that. It's just like, okay, all right, here we go. You know, throwing a little spice everywhere and slowly making people realize that this is who she is. [00:11:33] Louie Mandelbaum: Yeah, the social media thing is like definitely critical. I'm glad you brought that up because she kind of was like the peak celebrity of Peak Instagram, Twitter, years. Like she was the one that made it all like really enticing. I mean, her Instagram persona in the early 2010s was like the reason to be on Instagram. [00:11:52] And of course all of those clap backs. Our legendary and still cited it to this day. Another one of my favorites is like when some tabloid like tweeted something about, you know, something derogatory about her and she said something like, your pussy's too dry to be riding my dick like this, or something like that. [00:12:09] It was just, you know, we. I think that that was, first of all, she's very clever and smart and good at that stuff, so you can't fake that. But I do think the era of the social media celebrity has been all about creating an accessible persona or something that feels relatable as opposed to like the idea of pop stardom being something that's sort of like cordoned off or celestial or like, you know, something that is untouchable. [00:12:33] You know, the transition that pop has gone through in the 2010s has been toward stars that at least give the patina of relatability or accessibility. And I think her persona on social media and in tandem with the fact that she, I think the fact that she isn't a virtuoso in the way that Beyonce is so defined by her virtuosity created or helped kind of pave the way for the way that Pop stardom has evolved over the 2010s into something that's more about a brand of personality that feels accessible somewhat. [00:13:09] Like relatable, that they could be one of your friends that you know stuff about them, that they don't have to be perfect and manicured necessarily, even though that imperfection can be perfectly manicured in and of itself. But yes, no question about it. Those were all things that she played an integral role in creating that have only become bigger and more prominent aspects of pop stardom in the latter part of the 2010s as she's been kind of pulled back from pop music. [00:13:35] Dan Runcie: and it was interesting to hear you talk as well about the things that set her apart in thinking about the Super Bowl performance coming up. Because this is a stage where so many of the best performances lean into people that are the best performers or have that musical ability that transcends in a lot of ways and for her, even though that cool factor is something [00:13:57] Louie Mandelbaum: Remember Maroon five. [00:13:59] Dan Runcie: Oh man. It's funny, before listening to this, I was listening to where you had ranked a lot of them and I was like, I wonder where he has the maroon five one. And then eventually I was like, oh yeah, like, I'm sure it's closer to that one. I mean, we could talk about that one for a while. I do think that this rietta performance should be, better arrangement and spectacle than that one. [00:14:22] I am curious though, because of course, from a range of, let's say that, "The Who" or the Tom Petty. I mean, I wasn't as much of a fan of those, and I know you weren't either, but of course, Princeton, Beyonce are more of the highly regarded ones based on what you know about Rihanna and where you think she'll fit, where do you feel like this performance would likely end up in terms of where the, where she ranks compared to other halftime perform? [00:14:50] Louie Mandelbaum: Well, I'm awfully curious, Dan, because we haven't seen her do much in a long time, so it's definitely going to fill in some blanks and some curiosities that I think a lot of fans are wondering about where Rihanna is as a pop star and performer. Prior to kind of hanging up her pop star crown, let's say in like, you know, after the Anti tour, let's say in like 2017 or 2018. [00:15:12] She had made great strides as a live performer. I think early in her career she was sort of a weaker performer. Her vocals weren't that great live. She was kind of a listless dancer. Again, she pulled out a lot just based on her swag, but like she had made really huge strides in her performance ability and her vocal ability. [00:15:31] I mean, she was singing so well towards the, you know, end of the promo cycle for auntie when she was in her like Love on the Brain live performance era. I mean, she was shutting it down in a way that I never had imagined she would. She sounded amazing. So I'll be curious to know where her voice is. The thing is that Rihanna's going to do this in the Rihanna way, I would imagine, like, I just don't think, again, prince and Beyonce are two artists that are defined by virtuosity. [00:16:02] They are artists that you know are going to get on stage and be the Absolut. Apex of musicianship of performance ability. They're two of the greatest examples of those things in the most untouchable way possible. Rihanna's like a very different type of pop star. She kind of just gets on stage and grabs her dick, you know? [00:16:21] And like everyone's like, yeah. You know, so that's like what she does. So and I also want to pinpoint that again, and I've said this before, the things that she makes easy look easy or tossed off, or casual or not, like, don't be fooled like a lot of effort and thought and work goes into all of that with her. [00:16:40] So I would imagine we're gonna get some version of "the Rihanna thing" in a Super Bowl performance, which of course, every Super Bowl performance in the modern era is gonna be highly choreographed. It's gonna have massive production values, but I can't imagine her turning in something, again, even akin to like Jennifer Lopez and Shakira's, which is another one that I think is fantastic, but two other performers that are just like impeccable dancers, like super tight performers. [00:17:06] I have a feeling we're gonna get some version of like something that actually maybe relates a little bit more to a rock stars version of the Super Bowl. Not that she's gonna turn in like a Tom Petty-esque performance, but Rihanna can actually just stand there and sort of swag in a way that like, you know, your Beyonce's never gonna really do so. The question is, Is it gonna be up to snuff? I don't think anybody knows that. I think that's part of the fun of waiting for this thing is that we haven't seen her do anything in so long. She's had a baby. It'll be interesting to see like where she's at as a performer. I wish I knew more about it, but I'm just as curious as everybody else's. [00:17:47] But I would bank on the fact that someone of her pedigree and experience is going to turn in something epic and God knows like she's got the production budget and all of the help that she needs to like make that happen. So Rihanna can do a lot just by being Rihanna. So I would say that, I'm sure it's gonna be epic. [00:18:08] My guess is it will probably be epic, I guess. [00:18:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I do think that putting her in the top half of performances is a pretty safe bet, I think you could say. I think that comparing to the Prince or the Beyonce, to your point, I think there was so much that you expected from them based on what they're known for before going into it, that you already had that heightened expectation there. [00:18:31] With Rihanna, there's a lot more unknowns. Before this, I was going back and looking at, okay, what are the signature Rihanna performances that are out there. I was looking back at past VMA performances, past Grammy performances, and again, it's so long since you've seen some of those, so it's tough to compare. [00:18:48] And even some of those songs, I mean, she's doing some of the songs that she had done with Calvin Harris, which I'm sure we'll hear at the Super Bowl. But she's also done stuff from Anti that we just hadn't seen in that, you know, grand of a estate, at least in some of those, settings before. It'll be interesting to see. [00:19:06] I'm definitely expecting at least on the top half, but I've thought a lot about just the Super Bowl at all because you brought up the J Lo and Shakira one, which I do think was great on the performance perspective, just given where they are, and that was actually the first. Super Bowl that Rock Nation has done since they had took over as the lead to help the NFL with entertainment for the halftime show. [00:19:30] So that was the first one they had. Then they had the one with the weekend, and then you had last year the West Coast hip hop ensemble with Mary J. Blige and Eminem, Dr. Dre, Snoop, Kendrick and 50 cent was one of the guest acts there. And then you have this one with Rihanna. How do you feel like the Rock Nation era of the Super Bowl halftime show has been? [00:19:51] Louie Mandelbaum: Well, it's definitely been putting a focus on artists of color and artists that are, many artists that are adjacent to r and b and hip hop in a way that the previous iterations like touched on but weren't so focused on. So that's been really good and I think that's been needed and an important pivot. So that's been good. I think the J Lo and Shakira Super Bowl halftime show is one of my all-time top favorites. I think it was absolutely spectacular. They were both incredible and they both managed to make their like two six minute sets that they had to split up, like feel com comprehensive in this way that I was just like floored by. [00:20:26] It was just every moment of that was thrilling. So I love that one. I did not care very much for the weekend's performance. I thought I've never found him to be an incredibly compelling live performer, and I felt the same way about his Super Bowl performance. it just didn't do that much for me. [00:20:41] But I think he was a, a good choice. I mean, he's a massive superstar. He certainly deserved the slot and it made sense. And I thought last year's was great. I mean, I grew up in that era of hip hop, so seeing Dre, Mary J. Blige, Eminem, and Snoop Dogg. I'm never gonna be unhappy about that. And I thought they did a really nice job of threading those all together in a way that made sense. [00:21:05] And it felt like, you know, if you grew up on that music, like how are you not gonna love that? I don't know. It was hard to deny. But that was a very unconventional Super Bowl performance because in the last, let's say 10 to 15 years especially, they've become very codified as this. Artist Showcase for One superstar, they become this kind of like elite performance showcase for these upper echelon pop stars. [00:21:31] if you get that slot, it sort of says something about how culture sees you as, as we would say on my podcast, as like a top tier, pop star. So the last year one was definitelylike an anomalous one in the sense that it I guess it was a celebration of Dr. Dre's, you know, production work on some level, but it wasn't necessarily like the traditional pop star extravaganza that we were used to. [00:21:55] So they've tried things, which is nice, and I think it is nice to shake it up, but I am excited for it to be back to this like one artist sort career capstone thing because I think that that's been a really fun and fruitful mode for the Super Bowl halftime show. So I'd say they've done a good job and I think that I am, you know, I mean they landed Rihanna, which is like interesting considering that she had sworn off doing this because of Colin Kaepernick, which I know was another topic you wanna talk about, but clearly there's something that Rock Nation's involvement with this has. Changed in her mind about her willingness to participate with the NFL on this after she had pretty publicly said that she wouldn't. [00:22:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah, there's been a few things that Rock Nation has done here that I think have been good. I think that they were able to create themes around the event and try to tie in the location in some way, right? They had the Super Bowl in Miami, so they went deep on K. How can we get more music involved with Latin culture even though JLo herself is not from Miami? [00:23:01] That was the tie in there with her and Shakira, and I know that after watching J Lo's Netflix documentary, she was upset about the fact that she had [00:23:10] Louie Mandelbaum: yeah.  [00:23:11] Dan Runcie: to share the stage, not against Shakira, but just Kind of like you said the past decade before that, was this is a capstone on a singular pop star, and then here you have J Lo, and now she has to share the stage with someone else. [00:23:23] I know she was upset about that, [00:23:24] Louie Mandelbaum: Which she very easily could have done. She very easily could have done that. I just wanna put that out there. Like J Lo definitely could have held down a 13 minute halftime show by herself. [00:23:34] Dan Runcie: I think so too. I mean, we've just seen her perform at all these different settings and in so many hits in. people can have issues with her as a vocalist or things like that, but in terms of the performance, it was top notch. [00:23:45] So I'm with you on that one. And then with the weekend one, I do think that's the weakest of the ones. And there was less of a tie in, I forget the location of that Super Bowl specifically, but I know that, he had a huge years, the middle of the pandemic and the only person that was really like, you know, elevating as a superstar in the pandemic to a new level was him. [00:24:05] So I understood that. And then, yeah, the West Coast ensemble, that Super Bowl was in LA definitely didn't see it coming just from what we expected, but it was cool, and I do think that a lot of this speaks to the relationship piece and this taps into maybe a bit of that factor about why. They were able to get Rihanna in a way that they may not have been able to get her in 2016, 2017. [00:24:28] I think of course, when they had done that, this was right after Colin Kaepernick was kneeling and the league had a lot of heightened f a lot of people were heightenedly frustrated with the league because of not only its stance on police brutality, but this was also a moment where the league's relationship with domestic violence was getting more underlied. [00:24:49] It was only a couple of years after the Ray Rice incident. The concussion discussions were more and more, the NFL, at least from a public perception place, was probably in its lowest point that I could remember, at least in my lifetime, in that mid 2010s era. So to ask Rihanna then was rough. And I think another thing too that stuck out to me with how Rock Nation went about things, Jay-Z had said this in one of the press conferences that the NFL would ask three of these artists at the same time if they wanted to do the show. So then if someone comes back and then someone says yes before then now you have to go rescind the offer to the other person that said yes, which is a very. Bad way to go about this, especially if you tarnish relationships with things like that. [00:25:33] So I've always kept that in my mind, like if there's certain artists that haven't done it yet and you're like, oh, why hasn't this artist done it? Part of me wonder, is it because they like asked three people to do it and then two of them said yes, and then now they need to go, you know, renege on a deal with someone. [00:25:48] So I knew that Jay-Z was very deliberate about, we ask one person at a time, and then if that person says yes, then great. But if that person says no, then you move on to the next person. It sounds so obvious, but that's how they did it. And at least I had heard close to, some sources that told me that Rihanna was the first choice that they had for this year. [00:26:07] And then she said yes. So that was cool to see. And yeah, I mean, I think it speaks to it as well. Jay-Z obviously had signed, Rihanna's, her first record deal with, Def Jam. She was with Rock Nation. After that, they've always been in business together. So it was cool to see [00:26:24] Louie Mandelbaum: Well, I think part of the problem too is that there's like, we're running out of these superstars who are deserving of this capstone performance. Like there really only is like a handful of those super, super top tier pop stars that haven't done it at this point. It's like Rihanna was an obvious one. [00:26:40] Taylor is obviously one that's sitting out there, I'm sure. Ariana could probably do one at this point. There's like a handful of them left in the mix. But like Drake, drake, absolutely. But there's not that many and you know, there's a whole, you know, extra conversation we could be having right now about the state of pop stardom and how we aren't minting superstars in the same way that we used to do it. [00:27:04] But I think that was another reason why perhaps they felt the need to shake up the format a little bit, including with last year. And maybe even with the Shakira and JLo one and find ways to like do other versions of this because there really aren't, like we've burned through the like a-list pop stars, really, like a lot of them have already done this, so it'll be interesting to see if they continue to kind of like mix it up or like, you know, [00:27:32] hopefully like Billy Eilish and Little Nas X and Olivia Rodrigo, like just really turn it out over the next four or five years so that they're ready, like, you know, in the mid to late 2010s, 2020s to take over for the Super Bowl. halftime show life. I don't know. We'll see. But maybe we are gonna get like more of these. [00:27:49] different themed ones or mis mix and mashups. I mean, that's how they used to be like in the early 2010, early two thousands when MTV was doing them prior to Janet's situation. they were doing these kind of like huge ones, like people don't remember, but like Janet's Super Bowl performance was not like the ones that we get now from superstars, even though obviously she could certainly have done. She did two or three songs, really you got Nelly and Kid Rock and I mean, Justin Timberlake, like a panoply of other artists were involved in those shows. So they used to be more of like a smorgasboard, or at least sometimes they would be kind of like these conglomerations of sometimes very loosely connected stars. [00:28:33] Louie Mandelbaum: There was  [00:28:33] Dan Runcie: Did you like those MTV halftime shows?  [00:28:35] Louie Mandelbaum: And No Doubt. I mean, they were incredibly chaotic. Like I just think that they were so random. But yeah, I mean, they had their own charms. Like there was the one year that was like Aerosmith and Britney and Nsync, and Nelly and . I mean, they were fucking weird, but like they had their own charms, I guess. [00:28:52] But just a different kind of show, I guess. [00:28:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah, going back and watching some of those, the fact that Nelly did two Super Bowls is [00:29:00] Louie Mandelbaum: I know it's so weird. [00:29:01] Dan Runcie: thinking about that moment, right? But.  [00:29:04] Louie Mandelbaum: the two Super Bowl clubs is like Justin Timberlake, Beyonce, and Nelly. [00:29:12] Dan Runcie: I know, right. And maybe Tony Bennett did like one or two from the older ones if I remember correctly. But yeah, [00:29:18] Louie Mandelbaum: No, 90s ones are fucking psychotic. The nineties ones are like out of their minds. Truly like, Chaka Khan, I think like doing like Indiana Jones and Indiana, it was like psychedelic fever dreams. Or maybe it was Patti LaBelle, not Chaka, Patti LaBelle doing Indiana Jones, like themed Super Bowl Halftime performance is one of the weirdest things I've ever seen in my life. [00:29:44] Dan Runcie: Man, and it just makes you think about how far this show has come along and I think to that, even if we see these ensembles, I like the fact that there will be a bit of a theme to them moving forward. And I think there are so many creative things you can do. And I'm also curious to see how the show will continue to shape with the sponsor that's leading it because I feel like that's another element to this. This is Apple Music's first year. As the primary sponsor for the show after Pepsi had had it for the past decade, and we knew that Pepsi chose not to renew. They wanted to put more money into digital, and Apple was willing to pay more for the show. And I know that a lot of these streaming services are trying to get into the livestream business. [00:30:30] Apple was one of the more public companies I was trying to get NFL Sunday tickets. So there's always this association, both with music and entertainment that they've wanted to do to try to essentially sell more AirPods, sell more iPhones or whatever the exposure ends up getting them. [00:30:46] But I am curious to see, is there gonna be any type of integration or any other type of thing that we'll see that is a shift because I feel like this Pepsi era gave us so many of these singular pop star capstone shows. I feel like I think about Beyonce when I think about the Pepsi era of Super Bowl halftime shows. [00:31:02] What will this Apple Music one look like? I'm not sure, but what do you think? Is there anything that you expect to see moving forward now that it's kind of new chapter, new sponsor, [00:31:12] Louie Mandelbaum: Like Rihanna just like comes out wearing a pair of AirPods or like, I don't know, like she she sits down at like a MacBook Air and like in the middle of the stage. yeah, I don't know. That's a good question. I think, well, what's interesting maybe that you were making me think about earlier is that clearly having an artist like Jay-Z involved and Rock Nation involved is gonna be like a more artist friendly way to program these things that's gonna like value, cuz Jay-Z is a music artist, so he's gonna have some form of respect for the people he's booking. I think part of the issue sometimes here is that this is such a huge opportunity. This is the biggest stage in media for any star to get a chance to do this. Is such a huge moment in their career that I can understand why, like prior to Jay-Z. The NFL or whoever was programming these things in the past, like felt like they had all the power . Cause really there's very few opportunities in media. Where like someone like Beyonce feels like, oh, I should do this. [00:32:12] I mean, Beyonce barely does anything at this point. Like there's very few things that would feel like she didn't have the power in every situation. I was just reading an article the other day about how like the Grammys are so desperate to have her perform, but of course like why would she, I don't know what would be like, what would be the benefit of that to her at this point? [00:32:27] So the Super Bowl was really one of the last remaining things that feels like. Oh, like this is exposure that like you get once in a lifetime and it's so humongous. So I can see how that power dynamic works in terms of like what Apple's gonna do versus Pepsi. I don't know if I have any clearer thoughts on like how it's gonna be different except to say that like, again, perhaps Apple is like more of like, in the music industry, like is like more part of the music industry in some way. [00:32:54] They obviously like have been an integral part of like music consumption for the last 10 or 15 years. Whereas like Pepsi, like, you know, aside from like their iconic ads, like really, anyway, Pepsi's not exactly like, you know, music driven necessarily in the same way, so maybe that's gonna have an effect. Do you have any thoughts on that? I'm not totally sure. [00:33:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I'm not a hundred percent sure either, I do feel like apple's Dream would probably be to be able to have some type of live stream where you could watch it directly through Apple Music if you're on your computer or if you're on your phone or something like that. I know that the networks that broadcasters show are probably holding onto those rights and want them exclusively, whether it's Fox NBC, CBS, so I don't know if that would actually happen, but I'm sure it's something that they want just thinking about where things go. but beyond that, it'll be interesting to see. It's something I'm definitely gonna be looking out for, but I think it's still a little early to put any predictions on that. One thing you did say though, that was, that touched on something that I was thinking about earlier was just where the Super Bowl sits within pop culture within media and its importance because I do think that for a long time. We always thought of this as, yes, this is the biggest stage in entertainment, and I still do think, especially for a US artist, I think this is still the biggest stage that you could have, but thinking about someone like Beyonce, I think most people would probably look at the past 10 years and say, okay, Beyonce did perform the Super Bowl twice, and what's her signature performance of the past 10 years? [00:34:27] it was her Coachella performance and that's probably not something that we could have said about a artist 10 years before that, cuz I know Coachella has just grew and grew and definitely became an even bigger thing the past decade plus. And I'm now thinking, okay, in this next decade with where things are going, even just now where the Super Bowl sits, how are things shifting? [00:34:49] Is the Premier Music Festival and doing a great performance there, especially since they're now all being live streamed. Could that ever rival or get even close? Are there other types of opportunities that are engine closer? I feel like the Super Bowl probably will always still have that stranglehold just because of how many eyeballs you get, but that's something I've been thinking about, just how these things are shifting and what that may look like. [00:35:13] Louie Mandelbaum: Well, there's no comparing giving somebody a two hour concert to like do the most in the way that Beyonce obviously like now, has defined the most that you could possibly do with that. And of course that is her most well regarded performance ever. And like probably the. Most well regarded live performance of all time question mark. [00:35:33] So no question about that compared to like getting 15 minutes, but. There's the amount of people that are watching the Super Bowl is unmatched. Like no matter how many people are watching that Coachella live stream, like for instance, my parents, my parents still haven't seen Homecoming like they're not big Beyonce people, but my parents see every single Super Bowl halftime performance like, so I still think it's one of the rare instances where monoculture like still exists. [00:36:00] It's like one of the only things I mean I watched the Super Bowl and I could care less about sports. I have zero interest in football. I've never watched another game the entire year, but like I'm there like, you know, with it on mute until , until the halftime show happens. So it is one of the rare instances where monoculture still exists and people still tune in and you're still getting in front of people. [00:36:24] like for better or worse, the people that are watching Coachella are people that are already having some sort of interest in the artists that are performing there. This show puts you in front of a large group of people that like may not give a shit about you and wouldn't like choose to watch you perform even on the Grammys or anything like that, but there you are, so I think it is a level of exposure and a reminder to people and I think the way that these songs burn up streaming charts and Apple,you know, iTune store charts immediately following this, like, the artist that performs at these shows, like tends to like, have humongous streaming and, you know, download boosts following the show bears out that like you're getting in front of people that like just wouldn't seek you out in other instances. [00:37:06] And we have so few examples at this point of like actual monoculturelike functioning in this way, but I do think the Super Bowl is one of the rare moments where that still does happen. [00:37:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, you're right. And I think too, just thinking about how media has changed, especially since the pandemic, if anything, all the other stuff from a broadcast perspective, people are watching less and less, and that's becoming more niche in the N FL even compared to other sports is still the dominant thing. [00:37:36] So I think the Super Bowl, if anything, is probably just having more and more importance from that perspective. So I think it'll always be number one there. You brought up the thing about the bounce and the impact. [00:37:45] Louie Mandelbaum: And prestige. I mean, I think the other thing is just the prestige of the, of getting chosen for it is also something really important. Like yes, getting a Coachella headlining spot is like a big deal, but like people who wouldn't get. Super Bowl head. Letting spots yet like a Billy Eilish last year are still gonna get that Coachella slot like getting that Super Bowl slot is a badge of like honor and confirmation of your like superstar, A-list legendary hall of fame status as a pop figure in a way that like very few other things can coordinate in this day and age, I don't think. [00:38:21] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, that's a good point. And I think the other point you mentioned too, about the impact that this show has, of course, the week after the Super Bowl or the day after the Super Bowl, we'll see the streaming numbers or the downloads or even the record sales. But I think the thing that I've paid more attention to is some of the ways that these artists are making even more money from their tours or other things like that looking at someone like the Weeknd, he goes from performing in arenas to performing in stadiums and having one of the biggest tours of the year and even last year's West Coast hip hop ensemble. I think Mary J. Blige had the biggest tour that she had had. Dr. Dre, I know he didn't go on tour, but he just sold some of his music and maybe some of the high end interests there could have helped. [00:39:04] And even Snoop Dogg sold a bunch of NFTs afterward and launched his record label that was aligned with this. And if we could think about Rihanna who hasn't released music in seven years, what do we think this next year post Super Bowl will look like? Do you think we'll get a tour? You think there'll be a collaboration? [00:39:22] Do you think we'll finally get that album? [00:39:25] Louie Mandelbaum: I hope so. I mean, I tend to wonder like why she would be doing this if it wasn't to set something up because it doesn't seem like she has interest in just sort of like maintaining like she hasn't done anything in so long that I don't know why she would just do this, like randomly. So one has to imagine that this is the kickoff to an era of some sort. God knows she could launch a humongous tour without having a new album, and I think it would be massively successful like I wonder if Rihanna could play stadiums at this point. Just doing kind of what seems to be the new trend with all the girlies right now, which is doing their greatest hits. That's like Taylor's doing that. [00:40:04] Madonna just announced that she's doing that. I mean, Rihanna could certainly be like, Hey, you know, let me perform my greatest hits, which also constitute like the 25 best singles of the last, you know, 23 years or whatever. So like I have to imagine that it's setting something up. I don't know what to say about the album. [00:40:25] I mean, like I feel like I'd be getting in front of myself to say that she's gonna release something because she's really been adverse to releasing new music, and I wonder if there's anxiety about reentering a streaming marketplace that has changed quite a bit even since 2016. As I mentioned earlier, as much as I do think she has the capacity to appeal to the current pop fan base, cross section. She is certainly, you know, eight years has gone by, like, you know, things have really changed. I wonder if there's like trepidation about like how to work this system. I mean, you look at some of these seasoned pop acts, like even Beyonce. Like Beyonce did well with Renaissance. I mean, she did nothing to promote it, which is like a whole other conversation we could have about that. [00:41:14] But like, you know, the record sold well but isn't doing numbers like Taylor's doing and you know, isn't the sort of like jugg, you know, A-list, A-list, A-list juggernaut that like Bad Bunny is, or that, you know, some of like the new Vanguard of pop stars are. So I wonder if there's a feeling on Rihanna's part in terms of like someone who's had a career that's churn so much on. [00:41:38] A cavalcade of number one hit singles over and over and over and again. Album after album, after album, after album. About like how she's supposed to work that. Exactly. Cuz things have just changed so much and the guard has changed. And so that's a long-winded way to say I don't. No, if you had a gun to my head, I would say tour an album or forthcoming as a result of this, or like on the back of this. [00:42:05] I can't imagine that there isn't. But I will remind people that in 2013 when Beyonce did the Super Bowl, she didn't announce any, like there was nothing new happening. Later that year in December, almost a full year later, she dropped the self-titled album Out of the Sky, but, It felt like that performance just sort of existed in a vacuum when it happened, so it's not as if that doesn't happen. [00:42:28] So it's a little bit hard to say, but if she was smart, I would say given the amount of years that have gone by and how much like she could use of refocusing on the music and that the Super Bowl's gonna give that to her, I would hope that she's using this as some sort of direct launchpad. [00:42:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah, my prediction is Tour. Yes. Album maybe. And the album point is in large part for some of the reasons that you mentioned too, because the last album, I believe there was a botched release with Anti, I think it leaked [00:43:00] early on title cuz I think it was a early release or something like that. It was messy and I know that she was pissed about that and I'm sure that many fans were too And. [00:43:10] People can't escape leaks. I mean, Renaissance leaked early. these things are still happening. And to your point, yeah, there's a whole new system on how these things are being done. And SZA, she's someone who I think kind of perfected this system, but she's with a record label that has. Literally adapted its strategy to be able to understand how to perfect this thing. [00:43:31] And she had this whole waterfall release thing and you need singles leading up to it to kind of make that happen and Rihanna hasn't released music recently, so there's so many things that would need to happen before anyone would really expect, okay, boom, day after the Super Bowl, here's an album. [00:43:46] Like I do not think that's gonna  [00:43:48] Louie Mandelbaum: Two things. One is that, I don't know though, cause here, two thoughts I'm having. One is you are right about the anti rollout and it wasn't just the leaks that were the problem. There was a series of underperforming lead singles that led that record off until they landed on work. It was, you know, Bitch Better Had My Money, didn't crack the top 10. There was. You know, the, kind of weird Lucy with Kanye and Paul McCartney. I mean, there was like, you know, a series of singles that like, didn't quite do the job that like usually Rihanna lead singles were doing at that moment where every single one you could to a number basically were like generation defining smash hits. [00:44:25] So that's one element of it, but I kind of think the the SZA thing is an interesting comparison to me because yes, SZA released singles before the record came out, but like Shirt didn't catch fire in the same way that Kill Bill has since the album came out. And there's a big thing now with records that come out where. [00:44:44] Fans pick the hit, you know, you dump the record and fans, I mean, it's the same thing that's happened with Cuff It on some level. Like yes, you know, Break My Soul, hit number one, but Cuff, it's actually been a bigger hit than Break My Soul. If you go look at Spotify numbers, it's got more streams. It's a bigger song. [00:44:58] It's got it got the organic TikTok element that came into play. If she had done literally anything to promo it, if she had performed it or made a music video, I'm sure that song could have hit number one easily. But of course, that's a whole other thing about why Beyonce is doing nothing to promo any of this, but I think Rihanna might benefit from removing herself in the same way that Beyonce did with her self-titled Record and Lemonade. [00:45:24] To some degree, I guess, formation notwithstanding from the sort of like trying to find a lead single prior to dropping an album. I think Rihanna's in a phase, especially with Anti, which is her most critically well regarded work, an album that I think like expanded the possibilities for Rihanna being like a sophisticated and intriguing albums artist to come forth with a full record and sort of like see what catches fire from there might actually be a better strategy for her than trying to locate. In a boardroom, like a single that's gonna function like an umbrella or only girl in the world or whatever. Cuz this marketplace is just way more fickle and difficult to figure that out in than it was during her peak era. [00:46:06] So I actually think her dropping an album like literally after the Super Bowl with no notice, like, could be actually like a pretty effective strategy. But again, I don't know that she's gonna do that, but I'm just pontificating on like what I think could work for her. I actually think that might be a better strategy than like doing some more traditional rollout. [00:46:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it'll be fascinating to see. I mean, there's so many unknowns to the same way where I think even before Beyonce reformed, we kind of had an idea of what to expect. we don't know what to expect in a lot of ways, so I'm excited for that. But, Louie, before we let you go, let's make a prediction. [00:46:39] So we talked a little bit about maybe some future ensembles that we could see, or some artists that we could see perform. who do you think would perform, I don't wanna just say next year, because that might be a bit too. Keeping it contained, but what is a artist or a mix of artists that you could see doing the halftime show in the next couple of years? [00:46:58] Louie Mandelbaum: I think the obvious answer is like Taylor is obviously going to do this at some point. It's actually like somewhat surprising to me that she wasn't doing it this year. She's having a massive year. This record is gigantic. She has her biggest hit in a long time. This album is a juggernaut in a mainstream way for the first time in like, you know, a series of interesting kind of career diversions that were all huge. [00:47:20] But like, this is definitely like, feels like a big, big moment for her. And she is such a classic Super Bowl artist, not in maybe the Rock Nation era, but she is white country, you know, blonde, critical darling, rock bonafides, like whatever, like, so it's truly surprising that she hasn't done it yet again, Ariana seems like another obvious one. [00:47:41] At some point, I'm assuming Ariana's gonna come forth with a new record. She's due. It's been, I think, Two and a half years or something since her last album. So one has to imagine she's due for a new era soon. She feels like she's of the caliber and of the stature at this point to do one of these by herself. [00:47:57] So those seem like two obvious superstars. And Drake, I think Drake is on the other one. You brought him up. He's obviously seems like a slam dunk. You know, generational superstar. Literally, I don't know how he'd pick the hits, which is another thing with Rihanna, like how's she gonna pick what she performs in terms of like groupings of artists? [00:48:15] I think that's really interesting. I mean, I wonder like what a version of like the MTV format would like look like in the modern era like how could you like bring a group of artists together? Again, the Dre thing was really an interesting sort of like roll of the dice on that idea, but I'm wondering like how you might do that. In other contexts, like, I'm trying to think of like other rap crews, like obviously the other ones that comes to mind like, ha, why hasn't Jay himself done it yet? I mean that's an interesting one to me too. I know Jay famously said, you know, I don't need the Super Bowl, but now he is intrically involved in the Super Bowl. [00:48:53] He feels like another obvious artist and obviously someone that could like kind of corral and very interesting stable of guests. So. it's like Jay-Z and Friends seems like it could be an interesting one. Unfortunately, we've lost another obvious either co headliner or headliner himself in Kanye who was now radioactive and would never get the slot anymore. [00:49:12] I don't think so. He's someone that certainly deserves it on a musical front, but like I think is just, you know, persona non grata in most spaces at this point. And. I don't know. I'm trying to think of like good groupings. Do you have any ideas of like, what could be like a thematic grouping? [00:49:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I mean, it's funny, I was just looking here at some of the upcoming locations to see if that could give us any clues. But before I get there, you brought up a few things that I was thinking about the Taylor thing. I agree with you. I think that will happen. I think she's waiting until all of the re-recording come out. [00:49:45] So I don't think 1989 [00:49:47] Taylor's version came out. I don't think that Reputation Taylor's version came out. So I think once those come out and she's like, yes, you can play all my non-Scooter Braun owned music wherever you want after that, then I think [00:49:59] she'll do it. so I think she's kind of waiting there.  [00:50:02] Louie Mandelbaum: Yeah. I think  [00:50:03] Dan Runcie: do it. I don't think that I mean, there's no Super Bowl team in Canada, so there's no tie in there, but I wanna see him do it. I mean, I've been a fan of his for a while, but some upcoming locations. So you have this one in Arizona. The next one is in, Las Vegas, and then the one after that is in New Orleans. [00:50:19] New Orleans could be interesting. I feel like, you know, a whole bunch of, you know, culture with vibe there. I don't know. what artists necessarily, I know you have a lot of, hip hop [00:50:27] Louie Mandelbaum: Big Freedia Super Bowl halftime show when? [00:50:30] Dan Runcie: Big Freedia would be something, oh man, I feel like they'll do something with that. Assume that, you know, rock Nation is still involved. I feel like we'll get something cultural there. But, the one person that I do wanna say, and I think you mentioned this on a podcast as well, I think I love Bruno Mars as a performer. It was too early though, and I think you're right about that like he performed before Uptown Funk, before 24K magic. [00:50:54] And I think that he may have done like a snippet of those songs at the Coldplay one that he guested it on with Beyonce. But no, [00:51:01] we have a  [00:51:01] Louie Mandelbaum: whole next.  [00:51:02] Yeah. He did Uptown Funk. I. [00:51:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, we have a whole next set of those to do. And maybe if it's too bland to do him again, maybe you mix him with someone else or something like that, you know, him and Cardi B have done a few songs, like something like that could be kind of cool. [00:51:16] Louie Mandelbaum: Yeah. What about Nicki and Cardi? I mean, like we haven't had a female rapper headline on her own. [00:51:22] Dan Runcie: I mean, can you get those two in a room though? [00:51:25] Louie Mandelbaum: No, not together. Not together. Not together. I mean like what about one or the other? I mean, Cardi, maybe not, but Nicki certainly is a generation defining pop artist who like certainly deserves her own show. I think that'd be an interesting choice. I think the New Orleans one is really interesting because you're like, all right, you could have like Wayne as like one of the primary headliners of that, you know, and then you could like mix in. [00:51:50] I don't know, like other famous, you know, there's so many famous New Orleans artists. You could do like a Cash Money, Drake, Wayne, Nicki,  [00:52:01] Dan Runcie: That would be special. That would be special. [00:52:04] Louie Mandelbaum: Mm-hmm. [00:52:05] Dan Runcie: All right. Well, we're calling that now. That's our prediction. We'll have to check back, but that's our prediction for when is this? February 2025. So two years from now, Drake, Nicki, and [00:52:14] Wayne. The Cash  [00:52:15] Louie Mandelbaum: Right on. We'll have to check in about. That seems like an obvious good one. I mean, honestly, great show I That would be amazing. [00:52:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, that would be something that would be good. But no, Louie, this was so much fun. Thank you again for coming on and for the folks that are listening and want to hear more about how you break down pop artists, where should they go? [00:52:35] Louie Mandelbaum: They should subscribe to Pop Pantheon wherever you get your podcasts. It's really a taxonomy of pop stardom. We take them all one by one. We have really in-depth discussions about their careers and disc photographies, and then we rank them in a series of tears called the Pop Pantheon. So if you are interested in pop music, I think it's both informative and fun and smart and stupid at the same time. So if you like to talk about pop music and to overanalyze it as we do, follow us at wherever you get your podcast, Pop Pantheon, and also we're on Instagram and Twitter at Pop Pantheon pod. And I'm @DJLOUIEXIV on Instagram and Twitter. [00:53:18] Dan Runcie: Awesome. Great stuff. Thank you. Appreciate it.  The biggest stage in music is still the Super Bowl Halftime Show. In 2023, that stage belongs to Rihanna. This is a noteworthy show for multiple reasons.


Rihanna hasn’t released an album since 2016’s ANTI, which was a TIDAL exclusive! Seven years is a long time. She has since built two billion-dollar brands with Fenty Beauty and Savage X Fenty, and recently became a mother. Could this be the start of a music comeback for RiRi?


A few years ago, Rihanna famously turned down this opportunity citing her support of Colin Kaepernick. But that was before Jay Z’s Roc Nation entered into an agreement with the NFL to produce the show in 2019. That relationship — Jay signed Rihanna to her first record deal at 16 — likely patched things up.


This performance is also noteworthy since it's Apple Music’s first year as sponsor, taking over from Pepsi’s decade long-run.

 

To unpack it all, I brought on Louie Mandelbaum aka DJ Louie XIV. He’s a pop music connoisseur and breaks down the genre on his Pop Pantheon podcast. Here’s what we covered on the episode: 


[1:38] How Rihanna has stayed relevant without releasing music

[4:49] Factors behind Rihanna’s cool factor

[13:18] Where will Rihanna’s performance rank among Super Bowl halftime performances?

[18:03] Evaluating Roc Nation as halftime show producers

[26:47] “Chaotic” MTV-era producing halftime shows 

[28:59] Apple Music’s impact as first-time show sponsor

[32:52] Is performing at the Super Bowl still the biggest stage?

[37:15] Is Rihanna finally returning to music?

[45:32] Predicting future Super Bowl performers


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Louie Mandelbaum, @DJLouieXIV


This episode was brought to you by trac. Learn more about how artists can bring web2 and web3 together for their fans at trac.co


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TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Louie Mandelbaum: I would say there's three moments that really stand out to me, maybe four. the first is I do believe from the jump, she always had the coolest records from Pon de Replay on like Rihanna, Pon de Replay, SOS, Unfaithful. These were like very state of the art cutting edge, well-made. Cool pop songs. She always had that going for her.

[00:00:23] I think from the jump, but I don't know if that necessarily translated into her celebrity persona. I think that began to emerge around her third record, which is 2007s Good Girl, Gone Bad. I think Umbrella kind of to me stands as like the moment where Rihanna went from sort of upstart to like true.

[00:00:39] Kind of a-list Pop Star, that record is obviously widely considered to be one of the best pop songs of the 21st Century For Good Reason. 

[00:01:15] Dan Runcie Guest Intro: Today's episode is a Super Bowl special. This is all about Rihanna, the halftime show, and how this show has evolved over the past few years. I was joined by DJ Louis the 14th, who is the host of the Pop Pantheon podcast, and him and I talked all about what do we expect from Rihanna? This is the first big music thing that she's done in quite a few years.

[00:01:35] What do we think? Where this show will sit in terms of other performances that have been historic in the Super Bowl, this is now gonna be the fourth Super Bowl that Rock Nation has done. What do we think about the job that they've done? This is the first year for Apple Music. How have they been doing and what do we think we'll expect from them moving forward?

[00:01:53] And also, We all know about the Super Bowl bounce, what artists do the year after the show. So what do we expect from Rihanna for the next couple of years after the show? What do we expect to see from the show moving forward? And we make some predictions at the end on who we think would be some dope Super Bowl performances that we could likely end up seeing in the next couple of years.

[00:02:14] Here's the episode. Hope you enjoy it.

[00:02:16] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have the pop culture expert himself, DJ Louie the 14th here with us. Today he's hosted the Pop Pantheon podcast, and he was the best person that I had that I wanted to talk about this upcoming Super Bowl halftime show with the one and only Rihanna. So Louie, we're talking a little bit before we recorded just about her and how, I know she's someone that you can riff on for a while, but it would be good to start with where this fits with Rihanna's career right now, because she's someone that, I think it's almost gonna be seven years since Anti came out at this point, that at least the Super Bowl halftime show would've happened. I know she had the Black Panther song, but it's been so long since she's released new music, but she's still stayed so current.

[00:03:04] What do you think it is about her that just keeps that.

[00:03:08] Louie Mandelbaum: Dan. Thank you so much for having me on the show. So glad to be speaking with you. What I think is Rihanna's number one currency as a pop star, you know, like lots of pop stars have sort of a thing that. Is the engine behind their stardom, you know, for someone like Taylor Swift for instance, I would say it's her songwriting chops.

[00:03:28] That's like the thing that everybody turns to about her. For Beyonce, it's kind of her epic performance abilities. Like, not to say they don't have other attributes that, you know are working towards their success, but they're sort of like a main thing with all of them. I tend to think, and to me Rihanna's has always been her cool factor, like Rihanna is the coolest pop star of her generation, and she's never been the most traditionally talented at any of like the musical aspects of all of it. Like she's not like a generational songwriter. She's not a particularly like gifted dancer, you know, she's a very distinctive, but not traditionally powerful vocalist necessarily.

[00:04:13] So Rihanna's thing has always been that she is genuinely cool, like in a way that isn't put on or try hard in any sort of way. And I think that allows her to have a certain amount of interest in everything that she does, even when she's not making music. And of course, she's done a really fantastic job of building out her brand identity outside of just being a pop star through the success of her various fashion lines, Fenty Beauty, Savage, all of that stuff.

[00:04:47] Has allowed her cool factor to like disseminate through culture without her necessarily releasing music. But I think the most important part when it comes to her returning to music is that unlike other pop stars of her generation, say like a Katie Perry, who definitely does not run on Cool factor, I think that Rihanna is appealing to pop's core fan base, which has shifted out of her specific generation. So like since Rihanna's released new music, like there's an entire new generation of pop fans that are now like the kind of core center of pop music that were very, very young last time that she released music. But I think Rihanna's cool factor.

[00:05:28] I guess my hypothesis is that Rihanna's cool factor can allow for her to potentially be someone that they'd be interested in engaging with on new music in a way that they wouldn't, for somebody like Katie Perry or even someone like Lady Gaga, or even someone maybe even like Beyonce, I think that her cool factor creates the circumstances where perhaps people will still be engaged and interested in her releasing new music, despite the fact that it's been such a long time.

[00:05:56] Dan Runcie: When do you feel like that cool factor emerged? Because I agree with you. I think there is something intrinsic about her that just pulls people in and thinking about her career, it's almost been 20 years now. She came on the scene as a teenager and, of course, I think that in the early years we do start to see a bit more of the record label created person, and you don't see as much of the personality, but over time you start to see that.

[00:06:20] When do you think that shifted? Whoever's like, oh, here is the Rihanna that is showing us why she's the shit and other people aren't quite at that level.

[00:06:30] Louie Mandelbaum: I would say there's three moments that really stand out to me, maybe four. the first is I do believe from the jump, she always had the coolest records from Pon de Replay on like Rihanna, Pon de Replay, SOS, Unfaithful. These were like very state of the art cutting edge, well-made. Cool pop songs. She always had that going for her.

[00:06:53] I think from the jump, but I don't know if that necessarily translated into her celebrity persona. I think that began to emerge around her third record, which is 2007s Good Girl, Gone Bad. I think Umbrella kind of to me stands as like the moment where Rihanna went from sort of upstart to like true.

[00:07:09] Kind of a-list Pop Star, that record is obviously widely considered to be one of the best pop songs of the 21st Century For Good Reason. It's an incredible song and something that really allowed her specific kind of reading nasally voice to like shine through and like she gave that song a Life that I think even other vocalists couldn't necessarily.

[00:07:30] That was a song that famously like got passed around to Britney and Mary j Blige and acon and a lot of other artists. So it's really her plus this song that sort of came together and it was like her cool factor and her specific brand of Rihannaness that really made that song what it was. But I also think in a sort of, weirdly, maybe this is like a sticky and difficult or chewy idea. But I do think in the wake of what happened between her and Chris Brown, which was obviously like a horrific public experience, and you know, a very difficult thing for her to parse through. And for the public who, you know, were experiencing her at like one of many zeniths of her career, her experiencing this huge public, you.

[00:08:16] Incident with her boyfriend. I think the way that she emerged out of that as this kind of like titanium, no fucks given sort of, brand of like pop heroin or anti heroin in some ways. I think that was the moment in which like the Rihanna persona really crystallized like somewhere between rated R and loud and the kind of caval kid of albums and songs that came after.

[00:08:41] She emerged as this very specific brand of turn of the 2010s pop star who was kind of like middle finger in the air, like kind of gave off the air of like, I'm not even trying that hard, but like everything I do is amazing. Like that was another thing about her that I think really like codified her pop star.

[00:09:00] Every pop star is working really hard. It's a very hard job. So I don't wanna make it sound like she's not doing that, but there was a way in which she made it feel. She wasn't even kind of trying and like everything she did was a smash, even though she was kind of like casual about it, she never gave off the air of someone that was just like gritting her teeth and working really hard in the way that like a lot of pop stars can seem.

[00:09:22] So I think it was those combination of factors around that time, oh 9, 10, 11, that like the full embodiment of the Rihanna, like pop heroin slash anti heroin. I don't know exactly how to frame that, came into full, like being at that point.

[00:09:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think another thing that happened right around that same timeframe was the accountant that she had and how she had almost went bankrupt from trusting someone that was very shady with her money too. And that's where I think a lot of that zero fucks given as well. You combine that, the Chris Brown, you know, domestic violence and abusing her and then.

[00:10:02] That combination. Yeah. I do feel like by loud sonically we also started to hear a little bit, it almost felt like there was a bit more of like a tone in a oomph in some of the music there, which has been cool to see ever since. And I think like over time, she's just leaned more and more into that. And she also was someone who I think for every year, for up to at least the middle part of her career, she was releasing an album pretty much every year.

[00:10:27] But then I feel like by the time that Anti comes around, Slowing down. She's starting to put more into her. And we kind of saw similar transitions with how Beyonce, maybe it started to do, releases that word bit more, you know, less of the general, here is what you're getting. But no, let me be a bit more myself and tap into something like what we saw with formation and the self-titled.

[00:10:50] I think you started to see that a bit more with Rihanna and I feel like this. lines up with it as well. And I think another piece that I think about with her too is social media and just how we saw another side of that personality was just a bit how cutting and how, you know, direct she could be with people, whether it was her online, back and forth with Sierra, or even, I think there was one of the Kardashians, or maybe it was like Kendall Jenner had said something about, oh, That I hear this song played at the Rihanna concert, and then she's just like, then don't come if you don't want to hear that song.

[00:11:23] And little things like that. It's just like, okay, all right, here we go. You know, throwing a little spice everywhere and slowly making people realize that this is who she is.

[00:11:33] Louie Mandelbaum: Yeah, the social media thing is like definitely critical. I'm glad you brought that up because she kind of was like the peak celebrity of Peak Instagram, Twitter, years. Like she was the one that made it all like really enticing. I mean, her Instagram persona in the early 2010s was like the reason to be on Instagram.

[00:11:52] And of course all of those clap backs. Our legendary and still cited it to this day. Another one of my favorites is like when some tabloid like tweeted something about, you know, something derogatory about her and she said something like, your pussy's too dry to be riding my dick like this, or something like that.

[00:12:09] It was just, you know, we. I think that that was, first of all, she's very clever and smart and good at that stuff, so you can't fake that. But I do think the era of the social media celebrity has been all about creating an accessible persona or something that feels relatable as opposed to like the idea of pop stardom being something that's sort of like cordoned off or celestial or like, you know, something that is untouchable.

[00:12:33] You know, the transition that pop has gone through in the 2010s has been toward stars that at least give the patina of relatability or accessibility. And I think her persona on social media and in tandem with the fact that she, I think the fact that she isn't a virtuoso in the way that Beyonce is so defined by her virtuosity created or helped kind of pave the way for the way that Pop stardom has evolved over the 2010s into something that's more about a brand of personality that feels accessible somewhat.

[00:13:09] Like relatable, that they could be one of your friends that you know stuff about them, that they don't have to be perfect and manicured necessarily, even though that imperfection can be perfectly manicured in and of itself. But yes, no question about it. Those were all things that she played an integral role in creating that have only become bigger and more prominent aspects of pop stardom in the latter part of the 2010s as she's been kind of pulled back from pop music.

[00:13:35] Dan Runcie: and it was interesting to hear you talk as well about the things that set her apart in thinking about the Super Bowl performance coming up. Because this is a stage where so many of the best performances lean into people that are the best performers or have that musical ability that transcends in a lot of ways and for her, even though that cool factor is something

[00:13:57] Louie Mandelbaum: Remember Maroon five.

[00:13:59] Dan Runcie: Oh man. It's funny, before listening to this, I was listening to where you had ranked a lot of them and I was like, I wonder where he has the maroon five one. And then eventually I was like, oh yeah, like, I'm sure it's closer to that one. I mean, we could talk about that one for a while. I do think that this rietta performance should be, better arrangement and spectacle than that one.

[00:14:22] I am curious though, because of course, from a range of, let's say that, "The Who" or the Tom Petty. I mean, I wasn't as much of a fan of those, and I know you weren't either, but of course, Princeton, Beyonce are more of the highly regarded ones based on what you know about Rihanna and where you think she'll fit, where do you feel like this performance would likely end up in terms of where the, where she ranks compared to other halftime perform?

[00:14:50] Louie Mandelbaum: Well, I'm awfully curious, Dan, because we haven't seen her do much in a long time, so it's definitely going to fill in some blanks and some curiosities that I think a lot of fans are wondering about where Rihanna is as a pop star and performer. Prior to kind of hanging up her pop star crown, let's say in like, you know, after the Anti tour, let's say in like 2017 or 2018.

[00:15:12] She had made great strides as a live performer. I think early in her career she was sort of a weaker performer. Her vocals weren't that great live. She was kind of a listless dancer. Again, she pulled out a lot just based on her swag, but like she had made really huge strides in her performance ability and her vocal ability.

[00:15:31] I mean, she was singing so well towards the, you know, end of the promo cycle for auntie when she was in her like Love on the Brain live performance era. I mean, she was shutting it down in a way that I never had imagined she would. She sounded amazing. So I'll be curious to know where her voice is. The thing is that Rihanna's going to do this in the Rihanna way, I would imagine, like, I just don't think, again, prince and Beyonce are two artists that are defined by virtuosity.

[00:16:02] They are artists that you know are going to get on stage and be the Absolut. Apex of musicianship of performance ability. They're two of the greatest examples of those things in the most untouchable way possible. Rihanna's like a very different type of pop star. She kind of just gets on stage and grabs her dick, you know?

[00:16:21] And like everyone's like, yeah. You know, so that's like what she does. So and I also want to pinpoint that again, and I've said this before, the things that she makes easy look easy or tossed off, or casual or not, like, don't be fooled like a lot of effort and thought and work goes into all of that with her.

[00:16:40] So I would imagine we're gonna get some version of "the Rihanna thing" in a Super Bowl performance, which of course, every Super Bowl performance in the modern era is gonna be highly choreographed. It's gonna have massive production values, but I can't imagine her turning in something, again, even akin to like Jennifer Lopez and Shakira's, which is another one that I think is fantastic, but two other performers that are just like impeccable dancers, like super tight performers.

[00:17:06] I have a feeling we're gonna get some version of like something that actually maybe relates a little bit more to a rock stars version of the Super Bowl. Not that she's gonna turn in like a Tom Petty-esque performance, but Rihanna can actually just stand there and sort of swag in a way that like, you know, your Beyonce's never gonna really do so. The question is, Is it gonna be up to snuff? I don't think anybody knows that. I think that's part of the fun of waiting for this thing is that we haven't seen her do anything in so long. She's had a baby. It'll be interesting to see like where she's at as a performer. I wish I knew more about it, but I'm just as curious as everybody else's.

[00:17:47] But I would bank on the fact that someone of her pedigree and experience is going to turn in something epic and God knows like she's got the production budget and all of the help that she needs to like make that happen. So Rihanna can do a lot just by being Rihanna. So I would say that, I'm sure it's gonna be epic.

[00:18:08] My guess is it will probably be epic, I guess.

[00:18:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I do think that putting her in the top half of performances is a pretty safe bet, I think you could say. I think that comparing to the Prince or the Beyonce, to your point, I think there was so much that you expected from them based on what they're known for before going into it, that you already had that heightened expectation there.

[00:18:31] With Rihanna, there's a lot more unknowns. Before this, I was going back and looking at, okay, what are the signature Rihanna performances that are out there. I was looking back at past VMA performances, past Grammy performances, and again, it's so long since you've seen some of those, so it's tough to compare.

[00:18:48] And even some of those songs, I mean, she's doing some of the songs that she had done with Calvin Harris, which I'm sure we'll hear at the Super Bowl. But she's also done stuff from Anti that we just hadn't seen in that, you know, grand of a estate, at least in some of those, settings before. It'll be interesting to see.

[00:19:06] I'm definitely expecting at least on the top half, but I've thought a lot about just the Super Bowl at all because you brought up the J Lo and Shakira one, which I do think was great on the performance perspective, just given where they are, and that was actually the first. Super Bowl that Rock Nation has done since they had took over as the lead to help the NFL with entertainment for the halftime show.

[00:19:30] So that was the first one they had. Then they had the one with the weekend, and then you had last year the West Coast hip hop ensemble with Mary J. Blige and Eminem, Dr. Dre, Snoop, Kendrick and 50 cent was one of the guest acts there. And then you have this one with Rihanna. How do you feel like the Rock Nation era of the Super Bowl halftime show has been?

[00:19:51] Louie Mandelbaum: Well, it's definitely been putting a focus on artists of color and artists that are, many artists that are adjacent to r and b and hip hop in a way that the previous iterations like touched on but weren't so focused on. So that's been really good and I think that's been needed and an important pivot. So that's been good. I think the J Lo and Shakira Super Bowl halftime show is one of my all-time top favorites. I think it was absolutely spectacular. They were both incredible and they both managed to make their like two six minute sets that they had to split up, like feel com comprehensive in this way that I was just like floored by.

[00:20:26] It was just every moment of that was thrilling. So I love that one. I did not care very much for the weekend's performance. I thought I've never found him to be an incredibly compelling live performer, and I felt the same way about his Super Bowl performance. it just didn't do that much for me.

[00:20:41] But I think he was a, a good choice. I mean, he's a massive superstar. He certainly deserved the slot and it made sense. And I thought last year's was great. I mean, I grew up in that era of hip hop, so seeing Dre, Mary J. Blige, Eminem, and Snoop Dogg. I'm never gonna be unhappy about that. And I thought they did a really nice job of threading those all together in a way that made sense.

[00:21:05] And it felt like, you know, if you grew up on that music, like how are you not gonna love that? I don't know. It was hard to deny. But that was a very unconventional Super Bowl performance because in the last, let's say 10 to 15 years especially, they've become very codified as this. Artist Showcase for One superstar, they become this kind of like elite performance showcase for these upper echelon pop stars.

[00:21:31] if you get that slot, it sort of says something about how culture sees you as, as we would say on my podcast, as like a top tier, pop star. So the last year one was definitelylike an anomalous one in the sense that it I guess it was a celebration of Dr. Dre's, you know, production work on some level, but it wasn't necessarily like the traditional pop star extravaganza that we were used to.

[00:21:55] So they've tried things, which is nice, and I think it is nice to shake it up, but I am excited for it to be back to this like one artist sort career capstone thing because I think that that's been a really fun and fruitful mode for the Super Bowl halftime show. So I'd say they've done a good job and I think that I am, you know, I mean they landed Rihanna, which is like interesting considering that she had sworn off doing this because of Colin Kaepernick, which I know was another topic you wanna talk about, but clearly there's something that Rock Nation's involvement with this has. Changed in her mind about her willingness to participate with the NFL on this after she had pretty publicly said that she wouldn't.

[00:22:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah, there's been a few things that Rock Nation has done here that I think have been good. I think that they were able to create themes around the event and try to tie in the location in some way, right? They had the Super Bowl in Miami, so they went deep on K. How can we get more music involved with Latin culture even though JLo herself is not from Miami?

[00:23:01] That was the tie in there with her and Shakira, and I know that after watching J Lo's Netflix documentary, she was upset about the fact that she had

[00:23:10] Louie Mandelbaum: yeah. 

[00:23:11] Dan Runcie: to share the stage, not against Shakira, but just Kind of like you said the past decade before that, was this is a capstone on a singular pop star, and then here you have J Lo, and now she has to share the stage with someone else.

[00:23:23] I know she was upset about that,

[00:23:24] Louie Mandelbaum: Which she very easily could have done. She very easily could have done that. I just wanna put that out there. Like J Lo definitely could have held down a 13 minute halftime show by herself.

[00:23:34] Dan Runcie: I think so too. I mean, we've just seen her perform at all these different settings and in so many hits in. people can have issues with her as a vocalist or things like that, but in terms of the performance, it was top notch.

[00:23:45] So I'm with you on that one. And then with the weekend one, I do think that's the weakest of the ones. And there was less of a tie in, I forget the location of that Super Bowl specifically, but I know that, he had a huge years, the middle of the pandemic and the only person that was really like, you know, elevating as a superstar in the pandemic to a new level was him.

[00:24:05] So I understood that. And then, yeah, the West Coast ensemble, that Super Bowl was in LA definitely didn't see it coming just from what we expected, but it was cool, and I do think that a lot of this speaks to the relationship piece and this taps into maybe a bit of that factor about why. They were able to get Rihanna in a way that they may not have been able to get her in 2016, 2017.

[00:24:28] I think of course, when they had done that, this was right after Colin Kaepernick was kneeling and the league had a lot of heightened f a lot of people were heightenedly frustrated with the league because of not only its stance on police brutality, but this was also a moment where the league's relationship with domestic violence was getting more underlied.

[00:24:49] It was only a couple of years after the Ray Rice incident. The concussion discussions were more and more, the NFL, at least from a public perception place, was probably in its lowest point that I could remember, at least in my lifetime, in that mid 2010s era. So to ask Rihanna then was rough. And I think another thing too that stuck out to me with how Rock Nation went about things, Jay-Z had said this in one of the press conferences that the NFL would ask three of these artists at the same time if they wanted to do the show. So then if someone comes back and then someone says yes before then now you have to go rescind the offer to the other person that said yes, which is a very. Bad way to go about this, especially if you tarnish relationships with things like that.

[00:25:33] So I've always kept that in my mind, like if there's certain artists that haven't done it yet and you're like, oh, why hasn't this artist done it? Part of me wonder, is it because they like asked three people to do it and then two of them said yes, and then now they need to go, you know, renege on a deal with someone.

[00:25:48] So I knew that Jay-Z was very deliberate about, we ask one person at a time, and then if that person says yes, then great. But if that person says no, then you move on to the next person. It sounds so obvious, but that's how they did it. And at least I had heard close to, some sources that told me that Rihanna was the first choice that they had for this year.

[00:26:07] And then she said yes. So that was cool to see. And yeah, I mean, I think it speaks to it as well. Jay-Z obviously had signed, Rihanna's, her first record deal with, Def Jam. She was with Rock Nation. After that, they've always been in business together. So it was cool to see

[00:26:24] Louie Mandelbaum: Well, I think part of the problem too is that there's like, we're running out of these superstars who are deserving of this capstone performance. Like there really only is like a handful of those super, super top tier pop stars that haven't done it at this point. It's like Rihanna was an obvious one.

[00:26:40] Taylor is obviously one that's sitting out there, I'm sure. Ariana could probably do one at this point. There's like a handful of them left in the mix. But like Drake, drake, absolutely. But there's not that many and you know, there's a whole, you know, extra conversation we could be having right now about the state of pop stardom and how we aren't minting superstars in the same way that we used to do it.

[00:27:04] But I think that was another reason why perhaps they felt the need to shake up the format a little bit, including with last year. And maybe even with the Shakira and JLo one and find ways to like do other versions of this because there really aren't, like we've burned through the like a-list pop stars, really, like a lot of them have already done this, so it'll be interesting to see if they continue to kind of like mix it up or like, you know,

[00:27:32] hopefully like Billy Eilish and Little Nas X and Olivia Rodrigo, like just really turn it out over the next four or five years so that they're ready, like, you know, in the mid to late 2010s, 2020s to take over for the Super Bowl. halftime show life. I don't know. We'll see. But maybe we are gonna get like more of these.

[00:27:49] different themed ones or mis mix and mashups. I mean, that's how they used to be like in the early 2010, early two thousands when MTV was doing them prior to Janet's situation. they were doing these kind of like huge ones, like people don't remember, but like Janet's Super Bowl performance was not like the ones that we get now from superstars, even though obviously she could certainly have done. She did two or three songs, really you got Nelly and Kid Rock and I mean, Justin Timberlake, like a panoply of other artists were involved in those shows. So they used to be more of like a smorgasboard, or at least sometimes they would be kind of like these conglomerations of sometimes very loosely connected stars.

[00:28:33] Louie Mandelbaum: There was 

[00:28:33] Dan Runcie: Did you like those MTV halftime shows? 

[00:28:35] Louie Mandelbaum: And No Doubt. I mean, they were incredibly chaotic. Like I just think that they were so random. But yeah, I mean, they had their own charms. Like there was the one year that was like Aerosmith and Britney and Nsync, and Nelly and . I mean, they were fucking weird, but like they had their own charms, I guess.

[00:28:52] But just a different kind of show, I guess.

[00:28:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah, going back and watching some of those, the fact that Nelly did two Super Bowls is

[00:29:00] Louie Mandelbaum: I know it's so weird.

[00:29:01] Dan Runcie: thinking about that moment, right? But. 

[00:29:04] Louie Mandelbaum: the two Super Bowl clubs is like Justin Timberlake, Beyonce, and Nelly.

[00:29:12] Dan Runcie: I know, right. And maybe Tony Bennett did like one or two from the older ones if I remember correctly. But yeah,

[00:29:18] Louie Mandelbaum: No, 90s ones are fucking psychotic. The nineties ones are like out of their minds. Truly like, Chaka Khan, I think like doing like Indiana Jones and Indiana, it was like psychedelic fever dreams. Or maybe it was Patti LaBelle, not Chaka, Patti LaBelle doing Indiana Jones, like themed Super Bowl Halftime performance is one of the weirdest things I've ever seen in my life.

[00:29:44] Dan Runcie: Man, and it just makes you think about how far this show has come along and I think to that, even if we see these ensembles, I like the fact that there will be a bit of a theme to them moving forward. And I think there are so many creative things you can do. And I'm also curious to see how the show will continue to shape with the sponsor that's leading it because I feel like that's another element to this. This is Apple Music's first year. As the primary sponsor for the show after Pepsi had had it for the past decade, and we knew that Pepsi chose not to renew. They wanted to put more money into digital, and Apple was willing to pay more for the show. And I know that a lot of these streaming services are trying to get into the livestream business.

[00:30:30] Apple was one of the more public companies I was trying to get NFL Sunday tickets. So there's always this association, both with music and entertainment that they've wanted to do to try to essentially sell more AirPods, sell more iPhones or whatever the exposure ends up getting them.

[00:30:46] But I am curious to see, is there gonna be any type of integration or any other type of thing that we'll see that is a shift because I feel like this Pepsi era gave us so many of these singular pop star capstone shows. I feel like I think about Beyonce when I think about the Pepsi era of Super Bowl halftime shows.

[00:31:02] What will this Apple Music one look like? I'm not sure, but what do you think? Is there anything that you expect to see moving forward now that it's kind of new chapter, new sponsor,

[00:31:12] Louie Mandelbaum: Like Rihanna just like comes out wearing a pair of AirPods or like, I don't know, like she she sits down at like a MacBook Air and like in the middle of the stage. yeah, I don't know. That's a good question. I think, well, what's interesting maybe that you were making me think about earlier is that clearly having an artist like Jay-Z involved and Rock Nation involved is gonna be like a more artist friendly way to program these things that's gonna like value, cuz Jay-Z is a music artist, so he's gonna have some form of respect for the people he's booking. I think part of the issue sometimes here is that this is such a huge opportunity. This is the biggest stage in media for any star to get a chance to do this. Is such a huge moment in their career that I can understand why, like prior to Jay-Z. The NFL or whoever was programming these things in the past, like felt like they had all the power . Cause really there's very few opportunities in media. Where like someone like Beyonce feels like, oh, I should do this.

[00:32:12] I mean, Beyonce barely does anything at this point. Like there's very few things that would feel like she didn't have the power in every situation. I was just reading an article the other day about how like the Grammys are so desperate to have her perform, but of course like why would she, I don't know what would be like, what would be the benefit of that to her at this point?

[00:32:27] So the Super Bowl was really one of the last remaining things that feels like. Oh, like this is exposure that like you get once in a lifetime and it's so humongous. So I can see how that power dynamic works in terms of like what Apple's gonna do versus Pepsi. I don't know if I have any clearer thoughts on like how it's gonna be different except to say that like, again, perhaps Apple is like more of like, in the music industry, like is like more part of the music industry in some way.

[00:32:54] They obviously like have been an integral part of like music consumption for the last 10 or 15 years. Whereas like Pepsi, like, you know, aside from like their iconic ads, like really, anyway, Pepsi's not exactly like, you know, music driven necessarily in the same way, so maybe that's gonna have an effect. Do you have any thoughts on that? I'm not totally sure.

[00:33:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I'm not a hundred percent sure either, I do feel like apple's Dream would probably be to be able to have some type of live stream where you could watch it directly through Apple Music if you're on your computer or if you're on your phone or something like that. I know that the networks that broadcasters show are probably holding onto those rights and want them exclusively, whether it's Fox NBC, CBS, so I don't know if that would actually happen, but I'm sure it's something that they want just thinking about where things go. but beyond that, it'll be interesting to see. It's something I'm definitely gonna be looking out for, but I think it's still a little early to put any predictions on that. One thing you did say though, that was, that touched on something that I was thinking about earlier was just where the Super Bowl sits within pop culture within media and its importance because I do think that for a long time. We always thought of this as, yes, this is the biggest stage in entertainment, and I still do think, especially for a US artist, I think this is still the biggest stage that you could have, but thinking about someone like Beyonce, I think most people would probably look at the past 10 years and say, okay, Beyonce did perform the Super Bowl twice, and what's her signature performance of the past 10 years?

[00:34:27] it was her Coachella performance and that's probably not something that we could have said about a artist 10 years before that, cuz I know Coachella has just grew and grew and definitely became an even bigger thing the past decade plus. And I'm now thinking, okay, in this next decade with where things are going, even just now where the Super Bowl sits, how are things shifting?

[00:34:49] Is the Premier Music Festival and doing a great performance there, especially since they're now all being live streamed. Could that ever rival or get even close? Are there other types of opportunities that are engine closer? I feel like the Super Bowl probably will always still have that stranglehold just because of how many eyeballs you get, but that's something I've been thinking about, just how these things are shifting and what that may look like.

[00:35:13] Louie Mandelbaum: Well, there's no comparing giving somebody a two hour concert to like do the most in the way that Beyonce obviously like now, has defined the most that you could possibly do with that. And of course that is her most well regarded performance ever. And like probably the. Most well regarded live performance of all time question mark.

[00:35:33] So no question about that compared to like getting 15 minutes, but. There's the amount of people that are watching the Super Bowl is unmatched. Like no matter how many people are watching that Coachella live stream, like for instance, my parents, my parents still haven't seen Homecoming like they're not big Beyonce people, but my parents see every single Super Bowl halftime performance like, so I still think it's one of the rare instances where monoculture like still exists.

[00:36:00] It's like one of the only things I mean I watched the Super Bowl and I could care less about sports. I have zero interest in football. I've never watched another game the entire year, but like I'm there like, you know, with it on mute until , until the halftime show happens. So it is one of the rare instances where monoculture still exists and people still tune in and you're still getting in front of people.

[00:36:24] like for better or worse, the people that are watching Coachella are people that are already having some sort of interest in the artists that are performing there. This show puts you in front of a large group of people that like may not give a shit about you and wouldn't like choose to watch you perform even on the Grammys or anything like that, but there you are, so I think it is a level of exposure and a reminder to people and I think the way that these songs burn up streaming charts and Apple,you know, iTune store charts immediately following this, like, the artist that performs at these shows, like tends to like, have humongous streaming and, you know, download boosts following the show bears out that like you're getting in front of people that like just wouldn't seek you out in other instances.

[00:37:06] And we have so few examples at this point of like actual monoculturelike functioning in this way, but I do think the Super Bowl is one of the rare moments where that still does happen.

[00:37:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, you're right. And I think too, just thinking about how media has changed, especially since the pandemic, if anything, all the other stuff from a broadcast perspective, people are watching less and less, and that's becoming more niche in the N FL even compared to other sports is still the dominant thing.

[00:37:36] So I think the Super Bowl, if anything, is probably just having more and more importance from that perspective. So I think it'll always be number one there. You brought up the thing about the bounce and the impact.

[00:37:45] Louie Mandelbaum: And prestige. I mean, I think the other thing is just the prestige of the, of getting chosen for it is also something really important. Like yes, getting a Coachella headlining spot is like a big deal, but like people who wouldn't get. Super Bowl head. Letting spots yet like a Billy Eilish last year are still gonna get that Coachella slot like getting that Super Bowl slot is a badge of like honor and confirmation of your like superstar, A-list legendary hall of fame status as a pop figure in a way that like very few other things can coordinate in this day and age, I don't think.

[00:38:21] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, that's a good point. And I think the other point you mentioned too, about the impact that this show has, of course, the week after the Super Bowl or the day after the Super Bowl, we'll see the streaming numbers or the downloads or even the record sales. But I think the thing that I've paid more attention to is some of the ways that these artists are making even more money from their tours or other things like that looking at someone like the Weeknd, he goes from performing in arenas to performing in stadiums and having one of the biggest tours of the year and even last year's West Coast hip hop ensemble. I think Mary J. Blige had the biggest tour that she had had. Dr. Dre, I know he didn't go on tour, but he just sold some of his music and maybe some of the high end interests there could have helped.

[00:39:04] And even Snoop Dogg sold a bunch of NFTs afterward and launched his record label that was aligned with this. And if we could think about Rihanna who hasn't released music in seven years, what do we think this next year post Super Bowl will look like? Do you think we'll get a tour? You think there'll be a collaboration?

[00:39:22] Do you think we'll finally get that album?

[00:39:25] Louie Mandelbaum: I hope so. I mean, I tend to wonder like why she would be doing this if it wasn't to set something up because it doesn't seem like she has interest in just sort of like maintaining like she hasn't done anything in so long that I don't know why she would just do this, like randomly. So one has to imagine that this is the kickoff to an era of some sort. God knows she could launch a humongous tour without having a new album, and I think it would be massively successful like I wonder if Rihanna could play stadiums at this point. Just doing kind of what seems to be the new trend with all the girlies right now, which is doing their greatest hits. That's like Taylor's doing that.

[00:40:04] Madonna just announced that she's doing that. I mean, Rihanna could certainly be like, Hey, you know, let me perform my greatest hits, which also constitute like the 25 best singles of the last, you know, 23 years or whatever. So like I have to imagine that it's setting something up. I don't know what to say about the album.

[00:40:25] I mean, like I feel like I'd be getting in front of myself to say that she's gonna release something because she's really been adverse to releasing new music, and I wonder if there's anxiety about reentering a streaming marketplace that has changed quite a bit even since 2016. As I mentioned earlier, as much as I do think she has the capacity to appeal to the current pop fan base, cross section. She is certainly, you know, eight years has gone by, like, you know, things have really changed. I wonder if there's like trepidation about like how to work this system. I mean, you look at some of these seasoned pop acts, like even Beyonce. Like Beyonce did well with Renaissance. I mean, she did nothing to promote it, which is like a whole other conversation we could have about that.

[00:41:14] But like, you know, the record sold well but isn't doing numbers like Taylor's doing and you know, isn't the sort of like jugg, you know, A-list, A-list, A-list juggernaut that like Bad Bunny is, or that, you know, some of like the new Vanguard of pop stars are. So I wonder if there's a feeling on Rihanna's part in terms of like someone who's had a career that's churn so much on.

[00:41:38] A cavalcade of number one hit singles over and over and over and again. Album after album, after album, after album. About like how she's supposed to work that. Exactly. Cuz things have just changed so much and the guard has changed. And so that's a long-winded way to say I don't. No, if you had a gun to my head, I would say tour an album or forthcoming as a result of this, or like on the back of this.

[00:42:05] I can't imagine that there isn't. But I will remind people that in 2013 when Beyonce did the Super Bowl, she didn't announce any, like there was nothing new happening. Later that year in December, almost a full year later, she dropped the self-titled album Out of the Sky, but, It felt like that performance just sort of existed in a vacuum when it happened, so it's not as if that doesn't happen.

[00:42:28] So it's a little bit hard to say, but if she was smart, I would say given the amount of years that have gone by and how much like she could use of refocusing on the music and that the Super Bowl's gonna give that to her, I would hope that she's using this as some sort of direct launchpad.

[00:42:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah, my prediction is Tour. Yes. Album maybe. And the album point is in large part for some of the reasons that you mentioned too, because the last album, I believe there was a botched release with Anti, I think it leaked

[00:43:00] early on title cuz I think it was a early release or something like that. It was messy and I know that she was pissed about that and I'm sure that many fans were too And.

[00:43:10] People can't escape leaks. I mean, Renaissance leaked early. these things are still happening. And to your point, yeah, there's a whole new system on how these things are being done. And SZA, she's someone who I think kind of perfected this system, but she's with a record label that has. Literally adapted its strategy to be able to understand how to perfect this thing.

[00:43:31] And she had this whole waterfall release thing and you need singles leading up to it to kind of make that happen and Rihanna hasn't released music recently, so there's so many things that would need to happen before anyone would really expect, okay, boom, day after the Super Bowl, here's an album.

[00:43:46] Like I do not think that's gonna 

[00:43:48] Louie Mandelbaum: Two things. One is that, I don't know though, cause here, two thoughts I'm having. One is you are right about the anti rollout and it wasn't just the leaks that were the problem. There was a series of underperforming lead singles that led that record off until they landed on work. It was, you know, Bitch Better Had My Money, didn't crack the top 10. There was. You know, the, kind of weird Lucy with Kanye and Paul McCartney. I mean, there was like, you know, a series of singles that like, didn't quite do the job that like usually Rihanna lead singles were doing at that moment where every single one you could to a number basically were like generation defining smash hits.

[00:44:25] So that's one element of it, but I kind of think the the SZA thing is an interesting comparison to me because yes, SZA released singles before the record came out, but like Shirt didn't catch fire in the same way that Kill Bill has since the album came out. And there's a big thing now with records that come out where.

[00:44:44] Fans pick the hit, you know, you dump the record and fans, I mean, it's the same thing that's happened with Cuff It on some level. Like yes, you know, Break My Soul, hit number one, but Cuff, it's actually been a bigger hit than Break My Soul. If you go look at Spotify numbers, it's got more streams. It's a bigger song.

[00:44:58] It's got it got the organic TikTok element that came into play. If she had done literally anything to promo it, if she had performed it or made a music video, I'm sure that song could have hit number one easily. But of course, that's a whole other thing about why Beyonce is doing nothing to promo any of this, but I think Rihanna might benefit from removing herself in the same way that Beyonce did with her self-titled Record and Lemonade.

[00:45:24] To some degree, I guess, formation notwithstanding from the sort of like trying to find a lead single prior to dropping an album. I think Rihanna's in a phase, especially with Anti, which is her most critically well regarded work, an album that I think like expanded the possibilities for Rihanna being like a sophisticated and intriguing albums artist to come forth with a full record and sort of like see what catches fire from there might actually be a better strategy for her than trying to locate. In a boardroom, like a single that's gonna function like an umbrella or only girl in the world or whatever. Cuz this marketplace is just way more fickle and difficult to figure that out in than it was during her peak era.

[00:46:06] So I actually think her dropping an album like literally after the Super Bowl with no notice, like, could be actually like a pretty effective strategy. But again, I don't know that she's gonna do that, but I'm just pontificating on like what I think could work for her. I actually think that might be a better strategy than like doing some more traditional rollout.

[00:46:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it'll be fascinating to see. I mean, there's so many unknowns to the same way where I think even before Beyonce reformed, we kind of had an idea of what to expect. we don't know what to expect in a lot of ways, so I'm excited for that. But, Louie, before we let you go, let's make a prediction.

[00:46:39] So we talked a little bit about maybe some future ensembles that we could see, or some artists that we could see perform. who do you think would perform, I don't wanna just say next year, because that might be a bit too. Keeping it contained, but what is a artist or a mix of artists that you could see doing the halftime show in the next couple of years?

[00:46:58] Louie Mandelbaum: I think the obvious answer is like Taylor is obviously going to do this at some point. It's actually like somewhat surprising to me that she wasn't doing it this year. She's having a massive year. This record is gigantic. She has her biggest hit in a long time. This album is a juggernaut in a mainstream way for the first time in like, you know, a series of interesting kind of career diversions that were all huge.

[00:47:20] But like, this is definitely like, feels like a big, big moment for her. And she is such a classic Super Bowl artist, not in maybe the Rock Nation era, but she is white country, you know, blonde, critical darling, rock bonafides, like whatever, like, so it's truly surprising that she hasn't done it yet again, Ariana seems like another obvious one.

[00:47:41] At some point, I'm assuming Ariana's gonna come forth with a new record. She's due. It's been, I think, Two and a half years or something since her last album. So one has to imagine she's due for a new era soon. She feels like she's of the caliber and of the stature at this point to do one of these by herself.

[00:47:57] So those seem like two obvious superstars. And Drake, I think Drake is on the other one. You brought him up. He's obviously seems like a slam dunk. You know, generational superstar. Literally, I don't know how he'd pick the hits, which is another thing with Rihanna, like how's she gonna pick what she performs in terms of like groupings of artists?

[00:48:15] I think that's really interesting. I mean, I wonder like what a version of like the MTV format would like look like in the modern era like how could you like bring a group of artists together? Again, the Dre thing was really an interesting sort of like roll of the dice on that idea, but I'm wondering like how you might do that. In other contexts, like, I'm trying to think of like other rap crews, like obviously the other ones that comes to mind like, ha, why hasn't Jay himself done it yet? I mean that's an interesting one to me too. I know Jay famously said, you know, I don't need the Super Bowl, but now he is intrically involved in the Super Bowl.

[00:48:53] He feels like another obvious artist and obviously someone that could like kind of corral and very interesting stable of guests. So. it's like Jay-Z and Friends seems like it could be an interesting one. Unfortunately, we've lost another obvious either co headliner or headliner himself in Kanye who was now radioactive and would never get the slot anymore.

[00:49:12] I don't think so. He's someone that certainly deserves it on a musical front, but like I think is just, you know, persona non grata in most spaces at this point. And. I don't know. I'm trying to think of like good groupings. Do you have any ideas of like, what could be like a thematic grouping?

[00:49:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I mean, it's funny, I was just looking here at some of the upcoming locations to see if that could give us any clues. But before I get there, you brought up a few things that I was thinking about the Taylor thing. I agree with you. I think that will happen. I think she's waiting until all of the re-recording come out.

[00:49:45] So I don't think 1989

[00:49:47] Taylor's version came out. I don't think that Reputation Taylor's version came out. So I think once those come out and she's like, yes, you can play all my non-Scooter Braun owned music wherever you want after that, then I think

[00:49:59] she'll do it. so I think she's kind of waiting there. 

[00:50:02] Louie Mandelbaum: Yeah. I think 

[00:50:03] Dan Runcie: do it. I don't think that I mean, there's no Super Bowl team in Canada, so there's no tie in there, but I wanna see him do it. I mean, I've been a fan of his for a while, but some upcoming locations. So you have this one in Arizona. The next one is in, Las Vegas, and then the one after that is in New Orleans.

[00:50:19] New Orleans could be interesting. I feel like, you know, a whole bunch of, you know, culture with vibe there. I don't know. what artists necessarily, I know you have a lot of, hip hop

[00:50:27] Louie Mandelbaum: Big Freedia Super Bowl halftime show when?

[00:50:30] Dan Runcie: Big Freedia would be something, oh man, I feel like they'll do something with that. Assume that, you know, rock Nation is still involved. I feel like we'll get something cultural there. But, the one person that I do wanna say, and I think you mentioned this on a podcast as well, I think I love Bruno Mars as a performer. It was too early though, and I think you're right about that like he performed before Uptown Funk, before 24K magic.

[00:50:54] And I think that he may have done like a snippet of those songs at the Coldplay one that he guested it on with Beyonce. But no,

[00:51:01] we have a 

[00:51:01] Louie Mandelbaum: whole next. 

[00:51:02] Yeah. He did Uptown Funk. I.

[00:51:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, we have a whole next set of those to do. And maybe if it's too bland to do him again, maybe you mix him with someone else or something like that, you know, him and Cardi B have done a few songs, like something like that could be kind of cool.

[00:51:16] Louie Mandelbaum: Yeah. What about Nicki and Cardi? I mean, like we haven't had a female rapper headline on her own.

[00:51:22] Dan Runcie: I mean, can you get those two in a room though?

[00:51:25] Louie Mandelbaum: No, not together. Not together. Not together. I mean like what about one or the other? I mean, Cardi, maybe not, but Nicki certainly is a generation defining pop artist who like certainly deserves her own show. I think that'd be an interesting choice. I think the New Orleans one is really interesting because you're like, all right, you could have like Wayne as like one of the primary headliners of that, you know, and then you could like mix in.

[00:51:50] I don't know, like other famous, you know, there's so many famous New Orleans artists. You could do like a Cash Money, Drake, Wayne, Nicki, 

[00:52:01] Dan Runcie: That would be special. That would be special.

[00:52:04] Louie Mandelbaum: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:05] Dan Runcie: All right. Well, we're calling that now. That's our prediction. We'll have to check back, but that's our prediction for when is this? February 2025. So two years from now, Drake, Nicki, and

[00:52:14] Wayne. The Cash 

[00:52:15] Louie Mandelbaum: Right on. We'll have to check in about. That seems like an obvious good one. I mean, honestly, great show I That would be amazing.

[00:52:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, that would be something that would be good. But no, Louie, this was so much fun. Thank you again for coming on and for the folks that are listening and want to hear more about how you break down pop artists, where should they go?

[00:52:35] Louie Mandelbaum: They should subscribe to Pop Pantheon wherever you get your podcasts. It's really a taxonomy of pop stardom. We take them all one by one. We have really in-depth discussions about their careers and disc photographies, and then we rank them in a series of tears called the Pop Pantheon. So if you are interested in pop music, I think it's both informative and fun and smart and stupid at the same time. So if you like to talk about pop music and to overanalyze it as we do, follow us at wherever you get your podcast, Pop Pantheon, and also we're on Instagram and Twitter at Pop Pantheon pod. And I'm @DJLOUIEXIV on Instagram and Twitter.

[00:53:18] Dan Runcie: Awesome. Great stuff. Thank you. Appreciate it. 

]]> 3237 no Why It’s Not Too Late to Start on TikTok (with Sean “BrandMan” Taylor) https://www.trapital.com/podcast The playbook for artists to go viral on TikTok has changed a lot since 2019. Sean Taylor aka “BrandMan Sean” has written and executed that playbook for his clients since the early days of TikTok. He’s the co-founder of the ContraBrand Agency, which specializes in TikTok marketing for music talent. The agency has helped artists like Macy Gray, 24kGoldn, and Trap Beckham, among others. Sean and his team just released a global report on How Artists are Going Viral on TikTok. The report is packed with insights on artist virality on the platform. According to the report, artist-generated content (AGC) is the key to going viral today. It’s more impactful than not user-generated content (UGC) from fans and other users. AGC not only works, but it’s also a cost-effective way for independent artists to break through. However, Sean points out that virality isn’t as easy as before. TikTok has matured, and overnight success is harder to achieve. Still, with the right strategy, Sean believes TikTok is still a second-to-none top-of-funnel marketing play.  We broke down this tested TikTok system in our discussion. Here’s everything we covered about the platform: [1:51] TikTok entering its maturation stage [5:39] Second wave TikTok music artists vs. first wave [9:10] Biggest shift on TikTok for artists [17:13] No, artists don’t have to post dance content [24:00] YouTube shorts lack of culture [26:29] YouTube’s advantage over TikTok [31:31] The problem with IG Reels [33:32] TikTok pushing Google for search dominance [38:55] TikTok as a marketing funnel [42:21] The rise of TikTok live [46:10] Predicting where TikTok will be in three years How Artists are Going Viral on TikTok in 2022 report: https://www.contrabrand.agency/tiktokglobalreport2022 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Sean Taylor, @brandmansean Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPTION Trapital #Sean Taylor [00:00:00] Sean Taylor: One of the problems that people were having were them blowing up right? Without being able to connect to an actual face, right? So it solves so many of the problems that come with that, and even helps the problem of TikTok’s algorithm where people just hop on and start running things up with ads and you haven't really even understood what your content looks like, that creates some algorithmic problems, which probably aren't worth getting into, here, or maybe they are, but yeah. Man, artists generate content. It's gonna be a love hate relationship for sure with artists, the labels, all of us, right? But, if anything, it'll force collaboration and synergy between teams, in ways that it hasn't before. [00:00:42] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more. Who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:42] Dan Runcie: All right, today we are joined by my guy, Brandman Sean, Sean Taylor, who is back on the podcast for a second time now, and I wanted to have him on because there's so much that's happening with TikTok, with short form video and how artists are using it. And his company, the contraband agency just put out a report that dives deep into this, and he talks about this often on his platform, the Brandman Network. So Sean, let's level for a little bit, and I feel like TikTok is in such an interesting place right now, 2023. It's not some of that same rapid growth that it may have had a couple years ago, but it's still so essential for artists. How do you feel about where the platform is right now? [00:01:51] Sean Taylor: I think it's in a really good space actually. It's in a maturation space. The problem with that is people aren't seeing hits come as easy on the platform. and they're actually using that to downplay the platform and say, TikTok isn't that impactful, or it's not that big of a deal. It's hard to get a hit on TikTok. The difference is it's now a normal marketing infrastructure within your whole overall marketing stack. So yeah, there was this hot period where you were getting like gains that you probably didn't even deserve. Right. Every shock, swish, nothing but net. Now you have to do what you're supposed to do in every other space. So I think a lot of the pain that people are feeling isn't necessarily TikTok not being effective. It's TikTok not being unreasonably effective, unbelievably effective. The thing that made me get on TikTok, back in 2019. It's in an interesting space, but I think it's in a good space actually. And I can go deeper into that specific argument and why I see it that way. Cuz there's some numbers and milestones that I kind of think of it and approach it from, but yeah, that's where I think TikTok is right now. It's new, it's a viable marketing channel, but it's not the marketing channel that everybody is going to be as excited about as they were. [00:03:24] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you said this because there's been a bunch of reports about how TikTok has slowed down about how artists are starting to complain, and I've heard many A-list artists, even privately and publicly complain that things are popping the way they used to. But this isn't 2019 anymore. It may take some actual marketing expertise since some clever thinking about how to find things in. I remember one of the reports I said was talking about how you can't just give some post or some link to Addison Rae and then hope that someone like that goes and blows the whole thing up for you and makes you a superstar. You have to find your niches and build from there. And in reading that, it's like, well that sounds like what it's like to grow any type of career, and that's probably how it should be, right? [00:04:11] Sean Taylor: Exactly. Should it be that you pay one person and everything just blows up. Not really. I would love it to be that way for me, you know? But look, that's just the reality of how marketing works. So you can still get that number to grow and get millions of streams, but that millions might come a little bit slower. And now when it hits that 2 million mark, 3 million mark, probably even before that, it's gonna take a lot more heavy lifting to get it over the hump where, That thing could just keep going like a rocket ship straight to 2030 and not stop, right? So it's a great space to get things off the ground and create the spark, but going beyond that spark is more difficult. [00:04:59] Dan Runcie: In past years, we saw record labels signing a bunch of artists that came from TikTok, and I would assume that because of this rocket ship success, people didn't have the infrastructure behind them. A lot of those stories probably didn't end up panning out the way that they thought they would, maybe even at a lower rate than the average hit rate for. Otherwise artists at a record label are assigned. But I would think now that things have matured a bit, the artists that are actually coming to the forefront are likely gonna have more behind them. And because of that, B, the potential to actually maybe have a more sustainable career than that first wave of artists who just benefited from a very aggressive area. [00:05:39] Sean Taylor: Yeah. I mean, I think the thing is people hadn't really seen anything like that before, right? Like yeah, there had been one hit wonder. That has happened and someone who's seasoning the game probably understands what needs to take place. But to constantly have day after day someone popping out of nowhere like a breakneck speed level and trying to figure out how to bring infrastructure up, up under all these artists at the same time is a completely different story. Cuz it's also a different story when you have these artists housed under you, and then things take off really fast. You're taking them, you're trying to create a deal and figure out how to sign them, and then create infrastructure. By the time some of these deals take place, a lot of that moment is already missed, right? So, it was a really weird space, and I'm sure there's labels that have more of an infrastructure that's prepared for that situation. It's like, oh, if we bring somebody in from that particular climate, then there's a specific path that we can take 'em. Whether we expedite some things or we start here versus there, I'm sure that's there. But TikTok was really weird watching in the beginning because you had all these people blowing up and many didn't even wanna blow up, right? Like you had kids just using the platform and blowing up, they were an artist or just a regular influence or whatever you call 'em. They were just doing what kids normally do on apps and became stars overnight, which is very different from the artist who wants to be an artist. And then they take off. These are kids who are in their experimentational experimentation phase, kind of just having fun playing with things. And then it might be a hit song, right in a bed without even them trying to pursue it. So it created this really interesting space on TikTok and unfortunately, where I saw early on there were so many artists I don't wanna say artists, actually, less artists, more general content, creators falling prey to opportunist managers and companies because artists fortunately, have had a lot of education in these pages. I'm not saying artists don't ever have bad deals and situations, but there's a very common knowledge almost at this point that's been put out for artists getting in bad deals, avoiding bad deals, what you should do, in the culture, that education is out there as a regular content creator. That information isn't out there. Right. But it's very similar. So I actually saw like a lot of kids being signed by managers who had nothing to do with the industry at all. They're just like, "Hey, I'm just about to sign 51 situation I'm literally thinking about and he's telling me, yeah man, I just signed 50 content creators right to a management deal." And then thinking of it only from the standpoint of if I leverage these 50, then I'm gonna be able to get me a bigger deal, hopefully. But he doesn't have any relationships in place. There's no individual incentive to make any of the individual influencers blow up. It's more just, Hey, let me get stable so I can leverage the stable and, most of those deals fell apart, down the road. Or hopefully the parents kind of figured it out. But I know some who got burned really bad, but things were moving so fast. Like it was crazy. So a lot of parents were. Okay, this guy knows two or three people in the industry and you know, but everybody in the industry knows two or three people. So, but for people who don't have a child in the entertainment industry, and they never had any plans and they have no idea what to do, that sounds good. So TikTok was very crazy at the beginning. It was the wild, wild west. Now we're in this period where I think everybody has figured it out. Not everybody, but many people have figured out how to create more infrastructure. The problem is now the game is harder and that's how life works, right? It's like, dang, the moment I figured this shit out. Right? Things change a little bit. but you referenced my report earlier. I think the thing that was the biggest shift was the artist has to do more work. And that's what people feel more than anything. We could do everything and the artists were doing nothing and we were blowing songs. and now it's like, dang, I gotta get my artist to participate. And we all know how hard it can be to get the artist to participate in some things, especially content, right? but you know, that's created a space for those artists who truly do have a knack for content and that drive and honestly stamina to play that content. They've been able to make a lot happen, get a lot of organic streams, which makes it so much easier on the team cuz you still gotta do your job and make it, blow from there. But I know several artists that we work with who are getting their songs to 500,000 streams, 1 million streams, 10 million streams. Right. Any other form of marketing, just their content. So that's a huge benefit, and that's what I think the silver lining needs to be. The fact that we have that is still something we did not have in 2018 for music specifically, so that we need to appreciate and have gratitude for our blessings. [00:11:00] Dan Runcie: Let's dive into this a little bit because I think this point about artist generated content versus user-generated content is key. And I know it is a big part of your report as well, because I think for years now, we've heard so many people, even TikTok Head of Music just said this at the Nylon conference a couple days ago, was talking about how it's so key to be able to get the fans, to make the videos and get involved and things like that. And while that's still important, you're saying what actually can move the needle even more is getting the artist, even if they're reluctant to do it, getting the artist to do it themselves and having the two of them together and even more so the artist piece of it can really help push things forward. [00:11:42] Sean Taylor: Right. 100%. See, we realized this in 2020, in the trenches, you see this guy post a video, right? And we construct this concept. and you get a hundred thousand streams and just off of your video. Right? And that was amazing at that time to really see that he got a hundred thousand streams. And oh, by the way, there weren't really any replications to his video or sound. It had nothing to do with the dance. It hadn't had anything to do with influencers at all. He had the right creative concept, right? Hundred thousand streams. And for the artist that he was, you know, you're talking about pretty much no listeners, that's a massive number, especially just from one post and even better a post from him. Right. With not much of a following at all. He probably only had like 20,000 followers on Instagram at the time. Right? So we saw that and then I devised this campaign with the artist. Ironically, I just got off a call with this artist. We did like a little Google chat named Fash and Kid in Australia, right? He has some followers, probably a hundred thousand, 200,000 at this time. literally never dropped the song a day in his life at this moment, right? And he's like, “Yo, Sean, I've watched some of your videos and stuff on YouTube, and like, I wanna figure out how to release this song. I'm releasing it next week. What should I do? First of all, "Hey, don't release it next week", you know what I mean? Like, let's talk. Right? So, we made it a month from there, we created this entire narrative driven campaign. And just from him posting it was all based on his post, right? I actually took the marketing method that I blew up my music festival with, before I was doing, like working with artists, and it was all organic posts, right? So I had a structure that I used, and that was literally just him posting on his page. He got 1 million streams on his very first song, right? So, It wasn't one single post that made everything take off, but it was a system of post, and those were all pre, well, primarily pre-release. And then there were some things that were done, but this is 2020, so we're like, man, just posting all right on your page can take you far. The problem, I won't even say the problem was, but the thing is, paying influencers were still working like crazy at that time, right? So we didn't have an incentive to like to lean in it as heavy for artists that, you know, we would, were a little bit harder to get onto the platform and make work. Now, it's one of those things where, okay, look, we really want you to start here because the way things are set up today. If you don't do this and create this foundation, a lot of that other stuff won't bring anywhere near as big of a gain as it did. But yeah, back then we saw success with, or artist generated content, influencers. There were things that we called TikTok creators. We saw all these different types of games, but literally paying influencers was working so great at that time it was like, ah, why do anything else But yeah, artist generated content. Man, it's the way, man, it is the foundation of how I believe. things should be ran today. But of course, the caveat with every artist still has a different path, right? So your artist generated content might look different or artist generated content. There are outliers where that just won't be prevalent for you, but as a general way in a business approach. I love the fact that, one, you're creating fans in visibility for no money, right? You know, however much it costs to create your content, but generally speaking, no money. Two, you're testing. Songs before you actually put money behind them. Right? Three, if something blows, you already have a presence on the platform to connect people to. Because one of the problems that people were having was, were them blowing up right? Without being able to connect to an actual face, right? So it solves so many of the problems that come with that, and even helps the problem of TikTok’s algorithm where people just hop on and start running things up with ads and you haven't really even understood what your content looks like, that creates some algorithmic problems, which probably aren't worth getting into, here, or maybe they are, but yeah. Man, artists generate content. It's gonna be a love hate relationship for sure with artists, the labels, all of us, right? But, if anything, it'll force collaboration and synergy between teams, in ways that it hasn't before. [00:16:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I got the impression that from the TikTok head of music, making the comments about user-generated content, of course there's plenty to back that up, but I also saw it as a bit of a positioning to not take the stance that I think some of the labels have taken, where I think that the labels have come a bit of the public enemy of the artists who don't wanna be active on TikTok. We all saw the viral post that happened last towards the end of 2022. It was Florence, Florence of the machine and Halsey and others saying like, Hey, the label's making me do this. But I feel like there's so many ways to go about making short form videos and making content. How involved do you get with that piece of it? Cuz I think some of that is because people still think that artists need to be doing one of these like, you know, vertical TikTok dances that fit in something like they're Jason Derulo or something like that, but you don't necessarily have to do. [00:17:13] Sean Taylor: No, you do not. So again, this is one of those things that I was telling people back in 2020, but the problem was, again, dancers were working so hard and so well, no one's gonna believe you. Right? But we were only seeing the commercial level, right? And everything has levels to it, just like the industry, right? You have pop music and there's some genres that. For less far reaching than pop, but they're successful. Right. So that's what I attribute seeing Dances in 2020 work on TikTok. However, there were other things that were working right? like people thought you had to be a super upbeat hip hop song, cash pages song that blew, was nothing of the sort. Right? But so I think that for one, people have to understand that it just goes back to being creative. At the end of the day, and unfortunately many artists stop thinking creatively once they leave the studio, right? And I don't think it's all the artists now. I used to just blame it on the artist where it's like, bro, you're supposed to be an artist. You wanna be creative, right? Artist means more than a musician. Musician is just music, but artist creativity, that's what we're looking at you for. You have to show creativity and how you present yourself in this content. But I think what happened was there was so much working in terms of these trends, and they saw so many. Finding success so fast, it kind of demoralized them into thinking I have to follow these specific formats to find success myself. Right? So when I hear TikTok, I hear TikTok in a specific way, not just another platform that I can distribute my video on. You know what I mean? It would be like, oh yeah, you could create a movie, but it has to be a romcom. That's kind of what they're hearing, right?. That's not the truth though, right? [00:19:08] Dan Runcie: It reminds me too, of what you used to hear of MTV back in the day as well. Right. A lot of artists, especially late eighties, early nineties, a lot of artists that went on to be huge music video artists resisted it and they would always have a bit of a you know, high brow about it. Like, oh, I'm not trying to be like the Sir Mix-a-lot baby who got back a music video, like dancing on, you know, butts and booty shaking and stuff like that. But they found their own way to make the platform unique years down the road when it became the main thing. [00:19:38] Sean Taylor: That's it, because it's you. At the end of the day, you can create the content and the platform is just how you distribute it. Now, I think there's something to be said for using the unique qualities of a platform, right? Just like albums. what people created, just like CDs impacted what people created. Just like the internet and internet culture has impacted, oh, shorter songs cause shorter intention, span longer songs. Cuz now we have more space to create. Like all those things were like, music has always been impacted by the mediums and the culture around it. Right. And I think for some reason we constantly fall into this trap of, you know, oh, SoundCloud music, TikTok music. You know, at one point in time there was I mean, well, people complain about, I've seen people complain about tape cassettes. You know, like when you look up enough, you're gonna find everybody complaining about everything, right? And then the Grammy's, what's the Grammy's formula? Everything has its success, but truthfully, I'm in their own formula for success. But truthfully, you know, especially in this independent business, you know, you don't have to play every single game. I think sometimes we find ourselves wanting things that cause us to play a game we don't want to, which is like that weird love hate thing. It's like, oh, you know, black people shouldn't pay attention and value the Grammys yet. We still want Grammys. Right. You know what I mean? It is that love and hate relationship. I think everybody's doing that with different platforms in, in, in some form of fashion. and you asked earlier, Deep and involved that we get in people's content creation. It's varying, right? we don't do it with every project, every person. It depends on the vision and also their willingness and the need that's there. But, you know, we've gone as deep as recording things ourselves. I remember one campaign. This wasn't artist generated content, it was an influencer, but we bought something off of Amazon to send her for her to wear in it because it connected with the idea. And she had like 5,000 followers at the time. And the video ended up doing like 2 million. Right. So we were like really A and R ing, cuz sometimes it's, you know, TikTok is about narrative and with the presentation, so just hold, let me go to how many followers. Cuz the beauty of TikTok is you can not have a lot of followers and still get a lot of views. But if so, if you find the right person and can contrast it in the right way. Right. You can make it move. Right. I don't want to get into that campaign cause it might be semi uncontroversial in a way. I gotta explain [00:22:23] Dan Runcie: We'll save that one for offline then, [00:22:25] Sean Taylor: yeah. We'll say that one for, offline. For sure. For sure. But yeah, man, I mean, I think what I've seen is, if people can just open their mind and not start what's moving on a platform and just think literally in Word out, "Hey, what do I want to communicate now? How do I communicate that on this platform?" It'll save a lot of stress, particularly for the artists, because artists wanna do music videos. This is nothing but another video, right? So why can't I in 60 seconds? Be creative. Use that box. That box is a framework that will inspire creativity. How can I communicate and make something really dope in 60 seconds? We've had an artist last August blow up, his profile from like 20K to 400K and did 2 million streams in about a month with very, very high quality videos. And everybody thinks you gotta be really low. To find success on TikTok and record it from your phone and have the bubbles. These were very, very high quality shots and editing, and it's darker and it worked. Right. So it's really just about dope content at the end of the day. [00:23:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. Let's switch gears a bit. I want to talk. Talk's, competitors that are also in this space wanna talk YouTube and Instagram. But let's start with YouTube first, because you had recently put out a video where you were talking about YouTube shorts, their efforts there, and you said you're not concerned about YouTube shorts' impact because it just doesn't have the culture that exists on TikTok. Can you talk more about that? [00:24:00] Sean Taylor: yeah. So the thing that made TikTok so unique, early on was it developed a culture, like once it hit that network effect, I knew it wasn't gonna go away overnight cuz there's too much money involved outside of the government stuff. But that's a different story. Right? And then culture, like people, have a different presentation and expectation on how you act on TikTok. It's looser than Instagram. That was the beauty of it, right? So that created a culture. YouTube has an established culture and relationship that they have. their audience. YouTube isn't as interactive. It's a little closer to tv. You know what I mean? And Instagram's a little bit more of a resume. Most people are putting on their best, their Sunday best, if you will. TikTok, we're involved in this together. People feel like they have the power to blow a song up on TikTok. the users feel like they're giving heavy feedback. You should drop this song. When is this gonna come out, right? It's a completely different culture that you can't just copy overnight. That's where competitive advantages get created, right? Culture. Cause it's very, very hard to mimic that. I think it's gonna be successful, but it's just not going to be a threat to TikTok in that specific way where, you know, it's like a TikTok killer or something. It's like the Jordan Stoppers. Oh yeah. You know, Jordan only scored 39 instead of 35. Cool. You might see. [00:25:26] Dan Runcie: So if it's thinking about the Kobe stopper thing, so if TikTok is Kobe Bryant then is YouTube shorts, Ruben Patterson. [00:25:37] Sean Taylor: You too might wanna take offense to that, but in this analogy, yes. [00:25:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, but I've been thinking a lot about the YouTube piece, and I will give them credit. I think the trajectory of YouTube is greater than Ruben Patterson. No disrespect, but I do think that Lyor Cohen had said something interesting. Of course, he's the head of YouTube and one of his big things is that the fact that YouTube shorts has the connection directly to the platform  [00:26:04] Sean Taylor: Yeah. [00:26:04] Dan Runcie: on-demand listening happens, he feels like that conversion rate and that connection is stronger. And he didn't name TikTok specifically, but he was essentially talking about the fact that TikTok doesn't have that same type of win. I know they have Rezo, but it's just not the same. What do you think about that? Cuz I think the underlying aspect of that is conversion and just being able to transport an audience from one to the other. What have you seen from that perspective. [00:26:29] Sean Taylor: I think Lyor Cohen is extremely smart and savvy, and reading that statement. It was hilarious cuz you know the elephants in the room that he's addressing and it was like this competitive moment happening. It was like, come on man. Say their name. Say their name. But you're like, I'm not gonna give them any clout that was really, funny to read. But I think that they do have an advantage that TikTok doesn't. Right in that way, the long form content and that mentality, I think it's gonna be a lot harder for TikTok to get people to consume shorts on their platform than it is for No. It's gonna be a lot harder for TikTok to consume long form content on their flat platform than it is gonna be for YouTube people to consume short form. Does that make sense? [00:27:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. And I feel like part of it too is the conversion rate is one thing. I don't doubt that there's likely could be a higher conversion rate, but I think that absolute number is still what makes the difference at the end of the day. And I just don't know if the overall absolute number of people that are converting from. Hearing a song on TikTok and then going to stream that artist and then becoming a follower and an avid fan of that artist is necessarily going to be a number that's ever smaller than what we may see otherwise from YouTube. I think YouTube has still had great strides in that area, but I just don't see it coming to that level. [00:27:56] Sean Taylor: no. Cause again, it's about that culture, right? So two things, I'll get to the YouTube TikTok second. But when we first got on TikTok and started working with some people on TikTok, it was ridiculous to see the conversion of people who left TikTok and went to Spotify. Instagram, these other places, but specifically, let's talk about Spotify. Why was it so ridiculous? Because at that time, TikTok did not acknowledge the music on the platform at all, right? You had people hearing the song and then googling the lyrics to find the song name and then going to stream it, and it was happening in droves. That much friction told us, holy shit, when they get rid of this friction, it's gonna go. And of course TikTok got rid of that friction. But pa the fact that people were doing that, like I remember telling some artists, yo man, you got like a dollar sign and this version of the song, and then it's like no dollar sign. Like, and so people were having difficulty finding it. It's like, bro, you're ruining people's ability to stream your song. Like that was a thing. And then people started to rename their songs or added lyrics in the parentheses, right? Because of the culture. And that was happening and they wanted to make sure people could find the song right. Now we see less of that. It goes back to like the mediums and how things are influencing. Now we see less of that cuz you can figure out what it is within TikTok and people know how to name it. So that transferability from TikTok to other platforms has just been there for so long and people almost expected it. It's almost like TikTok is the megaphone, the amplifier. But then you don't even really expect to go super deep on TikTok, right? YouTube, you kind of do expect to go deep, but when we. Look at the platforms that TikTok converted to, and this is where I say the competitive advantage of YouTube goes. YouTube was one of the greatest conversions from TikTok that we would see. Like so many people left TikTok to go to Spotify and YouTube. Instagram was last particularly for artists. Right? So now, yes, being on YouTube already, Is a great competitive advantage. I think there's some fluidity issues that they need to solve. Like right now, from the phone, from your phone, I could take this video that we're creating right now and say, yeah, I want 10 seconds to 20 seconds, and take that into a short and it'll automatically be connected. But I can't make a cool edited short that's specific to the short format, and then say it's from this video. Right. And that'll make things even smoother because it's hard to take a snippet from the long form content just from timestamps and that would be a good piece of short form content. So people have to be able to edit and then connect it back for that to really come into place. And also they would have to make it a little bit more obvious that you can do that because the culture is not yet to go from long. I'm in short form to long form within YouTube. I know it happens, but people aren't naturally having that expectation. Oh shoot. This is probably from a larger video that's on this platform. What people are seeing more on YouTube is actually, mm, it's the opposite of what allowed TikTok to become what it became, and I don't know how it's gonna play out, so I'll tell you what I'm saying. [00:31:23] Dan Runcie: What are your thoughts on Instagram reels? I think you talked a little bit about it, how it's a bit of a resume but where do they stand? [00:31:31] Sean Taylor: I don't like reels, in terms of the value add yet, it's very inaccurate. So you'll get higher numbers, less engagement, where it's pretty clear it's not going out to the right people. The best people you know, they're, padding the numbers, so to speak. Right. It's cool that it got more reach, but if it wasn't accurate and I didn't get that much following, what does it really mean? That's where reels are at large. Now, can reels work and has it still helped some songs? Yes. It's just not it's not at the proportion that TikTok has been, and I think YouTube shorts are going. definitely, beat reels. [00:32:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think the clear desire from Instagram to try to turn your entire feed into a for you page is forcing this content to not necessarily hit the right people, which is why. Yes, it could be good from a viral discovery thing where, okay, if you have a post that's doing better than 80 or 90% of your other posts, then yeah, it may reach a larger than initially intended audience, but I don't know if it could be necessarily relied on in the same type of way. [00:32:41] Sean Taylor: Yep. I agree with you there. We'll see if they figure it out maybe they should focus less on the Metaverse. [00:32:52] Dan Runcie: Another thing that you had brought up a little bit earlier was about search in general and just how powerful that's become on TikTok. I think it's clear that they want to, well, I think TikTok is trying to do anything and everything. I know this is something for folks that follow Trapital been writing about this recently, all the things they're getting involved with. But I do think search is one of those interesting things because they are trying to take on a Google Head on, and people have seen how, especially Gen Z, they may be more likely to look up something through TikTok than looking it up through Google. What do you see as the potential of that moving forward, and do you think that would be a credible threat to Google at some point? [00:33:32] Sean Taylor: yes. You know why tutorial culture, that's what TikTok cut into. And Instagram never did that. It was never really a place that you went to look up tutorials, right? So it's less about music and entertainment and that side of things. It's the fact that people are looking at recipes, right? How to fix things. And then once you have that, that's what creates the. For looking things up in the, at the seo, right? it's not that it can't be created in other ways, but that's like a hack. If I know I can go find this and, oh man, I can find it done in 60 seconds versus three minutes or 10 minutes because on YouTube the video's not as valuable and might not go as far if I don't do an intro and all this leads in, right? Oh, these videos won't go straight to it. So they have a lot of ground to make on YouTube. But I think they're going to succeed, I'm not into the speculation of which one's gonna be number one. There might be days where it beats YouTube or whatever, but it's going to be, a legitimate search engine. You know, Yahoo, Google at least. [00:34:43] Dan Runcie: I do think that the tutorial piece is key, and I'm even thinking about times I've used it in the past. We bought a mattress recently, and of course you could Google search, what does this mattress like? But sometimes it's easier to just put it in TikTok and have someone show me some unboxing video to show me what that's like and compare a few. I liked it for that. I think more broadly in terms of all of the search pieces of it. I think that what Google has done in this space and even thinking about, you know, decades back about how they beat Legos and Alta Vistas, some of those others, I think it will be hard to ever replace that for everything that's possible, that people would wanna search. But I do think that the video tutorial piece of it, which is a subsection of it, but I do think that that's a unique place where they can, if you get core to the market there, you can figure things out. I also think that either misinformation or wasted just credibly have or understanding for users to know, okay, "What is legitimate?, What is not legitimate? Is a concern, and I think it's maybe harder to do in a way where I think text, you can have some of those clear things come up where I think the nature of a viral platform wants to show things that you know, may be sensationalized to some extent through video. That may take time, but I think that's one thing that will need to develop, especially on the TikTok side of things for sure. [00:36:02] Sean Taylor: See what you're explaining is the different personalities of seo. Just like we talk about the different personalities of TikTok, Instagram and YouTube. So Google dominates damn near Monopoly. You couldn't just be a Yahoo or actually, truly become a threat, but what you could. Was be Amazon and eventually have so much shit on there that people just think, "Oh, if I want a table, I'm gonna go Amazon, look for a table, I'm not gonna go to Google", right? Or you could be a YouTube, right? And have so many videos. If I want a video tutorial, I'm just gonna go to YouTube, right? So you enter the search engine market from the side versus, you know, the [inaudible] so I think TikTok has successfully gotten there. and even that personality being short form is something that attributes to that and the personality that Google will probably hold on to,in the long term for sure is probably gonna be the more scholarly approach, right? The more credible approach because of those other platforms. that's almost in conflict with what makes things move and the way people use them, and incentives that are in place. [00:37:15] Dan Runcie: Right. That makes sense. That makes sense. The other thing too, that it'd be good to get your thoughts on with TikTok is I think a lot of this conversation and a lot of how people have been measuring the success for TikTok is that conversion from TikTok and broader social engagement to streams, what are you seeing though from the next level down? From how looking at TikTok itself can eventually translate to concert ticket sales, or whether it's V I P clubs or other high end opportunities that fans are engaging it with an artist. [00:37:50] Sean Taylor: It's there. We've already had artists do that. The difficulty is the geography of it all. So you can do that, but you aren't completely sure that the video is going to go viral enough within your own audience, right? Because still, especially like most of last year, you still can drop a TikTok and it's mostly gonna be seen by new people, especially for people earlier on, right? So if all of your followers aren't necessarily going to see your posts, it's gonna be new. then that creates this issue with going deep with your audience, right? It's great for going viral and gaining and blowing up fast. That's why it happened, right? That built TikTok in a sort of way to show it to more new people than people who are following you. But then at some point it becomes, well, what are my followers really worth? right on TikTok. And I think some people are starting to figure that out. Like, man, I don't know if this really matters all that much. It really only matters what the individual video itself does, right. So the problem with that, if I'm doing a show and I don't know if my followers will see it, or I have no idea if it's good, or enough of video because it's outside of my normal format to get enough people to see it in general. Then, man, that's not predictable enough. It could be my strategy, but it's not predictable enough. Now, the advertising might come into play, which is a different conversation, but there's that, and then again, also, who's gonna see it geographically in the world? We have no, you know, way of controlling that. Again, outside of ads so far. It's definitely something that's useful for selling things like merch, for creating awareness for your shows, but the best way we've seen it with shows for the most part, is almost to talk about your tour as a whole, right?. So you bring awareness that multiple are going to happen, and then if your artist is down for it and it kind of works within your format, you can also vlog in a way, or like let people know, oh yeah, I'm gonna be in Atlanta tonight. Right? So they see and get reminded that you are on tour, right? So it's trying to create this awareness of all the spaces and places that they will be going. And then also reminding them that you're in process of this to remind them, oh yeah, when he's gonna, when is he gonna beat in my city? That's kind of like the best middle ground we've found. But it's hard to be like, Hey, I'm gonna be in Atlanta next week and all my Atlanta people and expect all the Atlanta people to actually see that and convert. [00:40:27] Dan Runcie: Right. it's a funnel at the end of the day, right? And TikTok sits at the top of it, even higher than some other social media platforms, right? And then from there, it's always going to be hardened, honestly foolish to an extent. If your main message on the top of the funnel awareness platform is, "Hey, Join my V I P club or join my Patreon or buy tickets to my concert, right?" You need to introduce people, let them know who you are, and maybe at that next level of engagement, then you can start to push more of those things. Then you can start to have more of these things come through, because there's just gonna be less friction there and you're doing the job that should be done at each level of the. [00:41:08] Sean Taylor: I agree man. I think, like you said, at the end of the day, it always goes back to the fundamentals of it and there might be aberrations. Give us more for moments of time, but things are always gonna default back to that basic infrastructure and use the thing with the right expectations versus expecting everything from it. [00:41:30] Dan Runcie: right. The other thing that I've thought a lot about for this conversation is, and even for reading the report and rolling into the show notes, so others can take a look at it as well, but thinking about how artists generate content and having artists push is what the wave is. At least at this particular moment. And I think there's a lot of reasons to think that yes, this is what makes sense now moving forward, but we also know how quick these things change and how things have evolved. Do you see another element, like I know eventually gaining steam eventually, I know that we talked about ads, we talked about influencer campaigns and just UTC and how a lot of these things were stronger and now relatively weaker to artists generated campaigns. Is there another thing that you think is going to play a role or that we may see another shift in this. [00:42:21] Sean Taylor: The dark horse is TikTok lives. Everybody's actually. Investing more in a live culture in general when you look at YouTube, as well. but TikTok lives the way they use that for you. Page is ridiculous, man. On Instagram, you're gonna see the lives of people that you're following. Again, on TikTok, you can go live and people will discover, right? It'll pop up on the people's For You page, and that's a different paradigm, right? I've seen it live when my partner was live where all of a sudden, like thousands of people came in, right? Because TikTok was feeding him to so many people. and then he would see it also trickle off. Whereas like experimenting, they wanna find a live that's engaging in a way that content isn't, moves up the algorithmic letter, right? So they're, look, that's how they display lives. So the fact that you can blow up doing lives, it's a completely different paradigm because it's like having a show but the people who do it well, they're getting money in these lives. A lot of money. I've seen people make a lot of money in their lives, but it's also a great format to build a relationship far deeper than you can through individual content and lead people over to buy tickets. We've used lives to like getting emails and, I mean, I did one campaign even back in 2020. , that artist Fash we probably got 10,000 emails more so from him going live, not more so, only from him going live. Actually, he even use a little bit of IG live. So the fact that you can do that is going to create this other performance skill that artists will have. [00:44:06] Sean Taylor: Almost like being a salesman, right? But doing it in a way where you give the presentation and the ask isn't so blatant. it's, we're going into this climate that's going to breed so many different types of artists like that have these, you know how you could be an artist that plays an instrument or you could be an artist that sings, maybe you could do multiple, where there's now these soft skills that we'll see artists, oh man, this dude is, he's just a salesman and he knows how to entertain people on live. And that's how he plays his game. This person still is just a pure musician, or this person creates a really dope content in the box of the regular feed. There's gonna be things like that. And the thing is, these other platforms are, you know, homogenous in many ways. They keep copying each other. So that culture that starts on TikTok, it's not just a TikTok thing. I always communicated it as a new language to learn because the new generation would be used to hearing and seeing things and consuming things in this format. So they'll wanna see it on other platforms. And inevitably, right, like we have an hour podcast, two hour podcasts, and people were like, Hey man, can you make this in 60 seconds? Like they expect to be able to learn something really valuable that's gonna change their. You know, in literally 60 seconds. I mean, we literally have had those conversations and seen those comments, but everything's not, you know, how you bake a cake? People like you can't rip at everything and change your artist's career in 60 seconds. But that's what we're seeing, like live is truly a dark horse, and I think it is gonna become more prevalent in TikTok and YouTube as well, to be honest. [00:45:45] Dan Runcie: No, I can see that happening definitely just with the way things are going. But, last question before we let you go here though. So let's fast forward three years. 2026. Is TikTok still in the dominant position that it is right now? And if it isn't, is it because of geopolitical concerns or is it because of another competitor that now has the next big thing? [00:46:10] Sean Taylor: If it isn't geopolitical, I think it's gonna be pretty dominant from what I've seen. in terms of their vertical integration and investment, particularly in music. It's just nothing like any other platform like you've seen, I mean Sound On, right. Rezo. Right. It's just different in what they're trying to do. They have deals that they've offered artists. Right. Which is really nice. Right. And unique because, oh, you're on, sound on and you. You have a song that blows up using their distribution platform. They have all the data. So now we can offer you a deal and you don't have to pay it back cuz it's gonna be paid back through the royalties. We're probably using the algorithm to calculate how much we should give you anyway. Right? This is already happening. Right. So the way they invest in it, I think it's just gonna be hard to get a pool away from it in three years. again, it's going to. More of a norm, less hot in its way, but I think they're gonna be pretty dominant in three, three years down the road. Yeah. I'll, I'll leave that at that. [00:47:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I'm with you on that. I think three years, because even though I do think that TikTok has been the fastest to grow to a billion users, at least what we've seen from a social app, I do think that the next app will probably be even shorter just thinking about how much faster adoption is, but. It still took TikTok several years to get to this point, so I think maybe five, six years would be a different conversation. But no, I agree with you. Three years. If it ends up being shut down, it'll be for some geopolitical concerns, but we'll see between now and then. We'll have to check in again at some point if any of that ends up going in that direction. But Sean, it's been a pleasure man. Thank you for coming on and for people that wanna learn more about your insights on TikTok and the stuff you're doing at Contraband Agency, where should we reach out? [00:47:56] Sean Taylor: Brandman Network on YouTube is a nice place to start. You know, you watch the podcast or you just go to no labels necessary on, Spotify, but no labels necessary is our podcast. So type in no labels necessary on YouTube or, or Spotify. At the moment, I think the podcast is probably the best place to go. But if you're immediately interested in services and want to speak with our team, that would be contraband.agency. There's no.com, www.contrabrand.agency [00:48:28] Dan Runcie: Good stuff. All right. Thanks again, Sean. Appreciate you. [00:48:31] Sean Taylor: Always good speaking with you man. [00:48:33] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 02 Feb 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Why It’s Not Too Late to Start on TikTok (with Sean “BrandMan” Taylor) full Dan Runcie The playbook for artists to go viral on TikTok has changed a lot since 2019. Sean Taylor aka “BrandMan Sean” has written and executed that playbook for his clients since the early days of TikTok. He’s the co-founder of the ContraBrand Agency, which specializes in TikTok marketing for music talent. The agency has helped artists like Macy Gray, 24kGoldn, and Trap Beckham, among others. Sean and his team just released a global report on How Artists are Going Viral on TikTok. The report is packed with insights on artist virality on the platform. According to the report, artist-generated content (AGC) is the key to going viral today. It’s more impactful than not user-generated content (UGC) from fans and other users. AGC not only works, but it’s also a cost-effective way for independent artists to break through. However, Sean points out that virality isn’t as easy as before. TikTok has matured, and overnight success is harder to achieve. Still, with the right strategy, Sean believes TikTok is still a second-to-none top-of-funnel marketing play.  We broke down this tested TikTok system in our discussion. Here’s everything we covered about the platform: [1:51] TikTok entering its maturation stage [5:39] Second wave TikTok music artists vs. first wave [9:10] Biggest shift on TikTok for artists [17:13] No, artists don’t have to post dance content [24:00] YouTube shorts lack of culture [26:29] YouTube’s advantage over TikTok [31:31] The problem with IG Reels [33:32] TikTok pushing Google for search dominance [38:55] TikTok as a marketing funnel [42:21] The rise of TikTok live [46:10] Predicting where TikTok will be in three years How Artists are Going Viral on TikTok in 2022 report: https://www.contrabrand.agency/tiktokglobalreport2022 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Sean Taylor, @brandmansean Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPTION Trapital #Sean Taylor [00:00:00] Sean Taylor: One of the problems that people were having were them blowing up right? Without being able to connect to an actual face, right? So it solves so many of the problems that come with that, and even helps the problem of TikTok’s algorithm where people just hop on and start running things up with ads and you haven't really even understood what your content looks like, that creates some algorithmic problems, which probably aren't worth getting into, here, or maybe they are, but yeah. Man, artists generate content. It's gonna be a love hate relationship for sure with artists, the labels, all of us, right? But, if anything, it'll force collaboration and synergy between teams, in ways that it hasn't before. [00:00:42] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more. Who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:42] Dan Runcie: All right, today we are joined by my guy, Brandman Sean, Sean Taylor, who is back on the podcast for a second time now, and I wanted to have him on because there's so much that's happening with TikTok, with short form video and how artists are using it. And his company, the contraband agency just put out a report that dives deep into this, and he talks about this often on his platform, the Brandman Network. So Sean, let's level for a little bit, and I feel like TikTok is in such an interesting place right now, 2023. It's not some of that same rapid growth that it may have had a couple years ago, but it's still so essential for artists. How do you feel about where the platform is right now? [00:01:51] Sean Taylor: I think it's in a really good space actually. It's in a maturation space. The problem with that is people aren't seeing hits come as easy on the platform. and they're actually using that to downplay the platform and say, TikTok isn't that impactful, or it's not that big of a deal. It's hard to get a hit on TikTok. The difference is it's now a normal marketing infrastructure within your whole overall marketing stack. So yeah, there was this hot period where you were getting like gains that you probably didn't even deserve. Right. Every shock, swish, nothing but net. Now you have to do what you're supposed to do in every other space. So I think a lot of the pain that people are feeling isn't necessarily TikTok not being effective. It's TikTok not being unreasonably effective, unbelievably effective. The thing that made me get on TikTok, back in 2019. It's in an interesting space, but I think it's in a good space actually. And I can go deeper into that specific argument and why I see it that way. Cuz there's some numbers and milestones that I kind of think of it and approach it from, but yeah, that's where I think TikTok is right now. It's new, it's a viable marketing channel, but it's not the marketing channel that everybody is going to be as excited about as they were. [00:03:24] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you said this because there's been a bunch of reports about how TikTok has slowed down about how artists are starting to complain, and I've heard many A-list artists, even privately and publicly complain that things are popping the way they used to. But this isn't 2019 anymore. It may take some actual marketing expertise since some clever thinking about how to find things in. I remember one of the reports I said was talking about how you can't just give some post or some link to Addison Rae and then hope that someone like that goes and blows the whole thing up for you and makes you a superstar. You have to find your niches and build from there. And in reading that, it's like, well that sounds like what it's like to grow any type of career, and that's probably how it should be, right? [00:04:11] Sean Taylor: Exactly. Should it be that you pay one person and everything just blows up. Not really. I would love it to be that way for me, you know? But look, that's just the reality of how marketing works. So you can still get that number to grow and get millions of streams, but that millions might come a little bit slower. And now when it hits that 2 million mark, 3 million mark, probably even before that, it's gonna take a lot more heavy lifting to get it over the hump where, That thing could just keep going like a rocket ship straight to 2030 and not stop, right? So it's a great space to get things off the ground and create the spark, but going beyond that spark is more difficult. [00:04:59] Dan Runcie: In past years, we saw record labels signing a bunch of artists that came from TikTok, and I would assume that because of this rocket ship success, people didn't have the infrastructure behind them. A lot of those stories probably didn't end up panning out the way that they thought they would, maybe even at a lower rate than the average hit rate for. Otherwise artists at a record label are assigned. But I would think now that things have matured a bit, the artists that are actually coming to the forefront are likely gonna have more behind them. And because of that, B, the potential to actually maybe have a more sustainable career than that first wave of artists who just benefited from a very aggressive area. [00:05:39] Sean Taylor: Yeah. I mean, I think the thing is people hadn't really seen anything like that before, right? Like yeah, there had been one hit wonder. That has happened and someone who's seasoning the game probably understands what needs to take place. But to constantly have day after day someone popping out of nowhere like a breakneck speed level and trying to figure out how to bring infrastructure up, up under all these artists at the same time is a completely different story. Cuz it's also a different story when you have these artists housed under you, and then things take off really fast. You're taking them, you're trying to create a deal and figure out how to sign them, and then create infrastructure. By the time some of these deals take place, a lot of that moment is already missed, right? So, it was a really weird space, and I'm sure there's labels that have more of an infrastructure that's prepared for that situation. It's like, oh, if we bring somebody in from that particular climate, then there's a specific path that we can take 'em. Whether we expedite some things or we start here versus there, I'm sure that's there. But TikTok was really weird watching in the beginning because you had all these people blowing up and many didn't even wanna blow up, right? Like you had kids just using the platform and blowing up, they were an artist or just a regular influence or whatever you call 'em. They were just doing what kids normally do on apps and became stars overnight, which is very different from the artist who wants to be an artist. And then they take off. These are kids who are in their experimentational experimentation phase, kind of just having fun playing with things. And then it might be a hit song, right in a bed without even them trying to pursue it. So it created this really interesting space on TikTok and unfortunately, where I saw early on there were so many artists I don't wanna say artists, actually, less artists, more general content, creators falling prey to opportunist managers and companies because artists fortunately, have had a lot of education in these pages. I'm not saying artists don't ever have bad deals and situations, but there's a very common knowledge almost at this point that's been put out for artists getting in bad deals, avoiding bad deals, what you should do, in the culture, that education is out there as a regular content creator. That information isn't out there. Right. But it's very similar. So I actually saw like a lot of kids being signed by managers who had nothing to do with the industry at all. They're just like, "Hey, I'm just about to sign 51 situation I'm literally thinking about and he's telling me, yeah man, I just signed 50 content creators right to a management deal." And then thinking of it only from the standpoint of if I leverage these 50, then I'm gonna be able to get me a bigger deal, hopefully. But he doesn't have any relationships in place. There's no individual incentive to make any of the individual influencers blow up. It's more just, Hey, let me get stable so I can leverage the stable and, most of those deals fell apart, down the road. Or hopefully the parents kind of figured it out. But I know some who got burned really bad, but things were moving so fast. Like it was crazy. So a lot of parents were. Okay, this guy knows two or three people in the industry and you know, but everybody in the industry knows two or three people. So, but for people who don't have a child in the entertainment industry, and they never had any plans and they have no idea what to do, that sounds good. So TikTok was very crazy at the beginning. It was the wild, wild west. Now we're in this period where I think everybody has figured it out. Not everybody, but many people have figured out how to create more infrastructure. The problem is now the game is harder and that's how life works, right? It's like, dang, the moment I figured this shit out. Right? Things change a little bit. but you referenced my report earlier. I think the thing that was the biggest shift was the artist has to do more work. And that's what people feel more than anything. We could do everything and the artists were doing nothing and we were blowing songs. and now it's like, dang, I gotta get my artist to participate. And we all know how hard it can be to get the artist to participate in some things, especially content, right? but you know, that's created a space for those artists who truly do have a knack for content and that drive and honestly stamina to play that content. They've been able to make a lot happen, get a lot of organic streams, which makes it so much easier on the team cuz you still gotta do your job and make it, blow from there. But I know several artists that we work with who are getting their songs to 500,000 streams, 1 million streams, 10 million streams. Right. Any other form of marketing, just their content. So that's a huge benefit, and that's what I think the silver lining needs to be. The fact that we have that is still something we did not have in 2018 for music specifically, so that we need to appreciate and have gratitude for our blessings. [00:11:00] Dan Runcie: Let's dive into this a little bit because I think this point about artist generated content versus user-generated content is key. And I know it is a big part of your report as well, because I think for years now, we've heard so many people, even TikTok Head of Music just said this at the Nylon conference a couple days ago, was talking about how it's so key to be able to get the fans, to make the videos and get involved and things like that. And while that's still important, you're saying what actually can move the needle even more is getting the artist, even if they're reluctant to do it, getting the artist to do it themselves and having the two of them together and even more so the artist piece of it can really help push things forward. [00:11:42] Sean Taylor: Right. 100%. See, we realized this in 2020, in the trenches, you see this guy post a video, right? And we construct this concept. and you get a hundred thousand streams and just off of your video. Right? And that was amazing at that time to really see that he got a hundred thousand streams. And oh, by the way, there weren't really any replications to his video or sound. It had nothing to do with the dance. It hadn't had anything to do with influencers at all. He had the right creative concept, right? Hundred thousand streams. And for the artist that he was, you know, you're talking about pretty much no listeners, that's a massive number, especially just from one post and even better a post from him. Right. With not much of a following at all. He probably only had like 20,000 followers on Instagram at the time. Right? So we saw that and then I devised this campaign with the artist. Ironically, I just got off a call with this artist. We did like a little Google chat named Fash and Kid in Australia, right? He has some followers, probably a hundred thousand, 200,000 at this time. literally never dropped the song a day in his life at this moment, right? And he's like, “Yo, Sean, I've watched some of your videos and stuff on YouTube, and like, I wanna figure out how to release this song. I'm releasing it next week. What should I do? First of all, "Hey, don't release it next week", you know what I mean? Like, let's talk. Right? So, we made it a month from there, we created this entire narrative driven campaign. And just from him posting it was all based on his post, right? I actually took the marketing method that I blew up my music festival with, before I was doing, like working with artists, and it was all organic posts, right? So I had a structure that I used, and that was literally just him posting on his page. He got 1 million streams on his very first song, right? So, It wasn't one single post that made everything take off, but it was a system of post, and those were all pre, well, primarily pre-release. And then there were some things that were done, but this is 2020, so we're like, man, just posting all right on your page can take you far. The problem, I won't even say the problem was, but the thing is, paying influencers were still working like crazy at that time, right? So we didn't have an incentive to like to lean in it as heavy for artists that, you know, we would, were a little bit harder to get onto the platform and make work. Now, it's one of those things where, okay, look, we really want you to start here because the way things are set up today. If you don't do this and create this foundation, a lot of that other stuff won't bring anywhere near as big of a gain as it did. But yeah, back then we saw success with, or artist generated content, influencers. There were things that we called TikTok creators. We saw all these different types of games, but literally paying influencers was working so great at that time it was like, ah, why do anything else But yeah, artist generated content. Man, it's the way, man, it is the foundation of how I believe. things should be ran today. But of course, the caveat with every artist still has a different path, right? So your artist generated content might look different or artist generated content. There are outliers where that just won't be prevalent for you, but as a general way in a business approach. I love the fact that, one, you're creating fans in visibility for no money, right? You know, however much it costs to create your content, but generally speaking, no money. Two, you're testing. Songs before you actually put money behind them. Right? Three, if something blows, you already have a presence on the platform to connect people to. Because one of the problems that people were having was, were them blowing up right? Without being able to connect to an actual face, right? So it solves so many of the problems that come with that, and even helps the problem of TikTok’s algorithm where people just hop on and start running things up with ads and you haven't really even understood what your content looks like, that creates some algorithmic problems, which probably aren't worth getting into, here, or maybe they are, but yeah. Man, artists generate content. It's gonna be a love hate relationship for sure with artists, the labels, all of us, right? But, if anything, it'll force collaboration and synergy between teams, in ways that it hasn't before. [00:16:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I got the impression that from the TikTok head of music, making the comments about user-generated content, of course there's plenty to back that up, but I also saw it as a bit of a positioning to not take the stance that I think some of the labels have taken, where I think that the labels have come a bit of the public enemy of the artists who don't wanna be active on TikTok. We all saw the viral post that happened last towards the end of 2022. It was Florence, Florence of the machine and Halsey and others saying like, Hey, the label's making me do this. But I feel like there's so many ways to go about making short form videos and making content. How involved do you get with that piece of it? Cuz I think some of that is because people still think that artists need to be doing one of these like, you know, vertical TikTok dances that fit in something like they're Jason Derulo or something like that, but you don't necessarily have to do. [00:17:13] Sean Taylor: No, you do not. So again, this is one of those things that I was telling people back in 2020, but the problem was, again, dancers were working so hard and so well, no one's gonna believe you. Right? But we were only seeing the commercial level, right? And everything has levels to it, just like the industry, right? You have pop music and there's some genres that. For less far reaching than pop, but they're successful. Right. So that's what I attribute seeing Dances in 2020 work on TikTok. However, there were other things that were working right? like people thought you had to be a super upbeat hip hop song, cash pages song that blew, was nothing of the sort. Right? But so I think that for one, people have to understand that it just goes back to being creative. At the end of the day, and unfortunately many artists stop thinking creatively once they leave the studio, right? And I don't think it's all the artists now. I used to just blame it on the artist where it's like, bro, you're supposed to be an artist. You wanna be creative, right? Artist means more than a musician. Musician is just music, but artist creativity, that's what we're looking at you for. You have to show creativity and how you present yourself in this content. But I think what happened was there was so much working in terms of these trends, and they saw so many. Finding success so fast, it kind of demoralized them into thinking I have to follow these specific formats to find success myself. Right? So when I hear TikTok, I hear TikTok in a specific way, not just another platform that I can distribute my video on. You know what I mean? It would be like, oh yeah, you could create a movie, but it has to be a romcom. That's kind of what they're hearing, right?. That's not the truth though, right? [00:19:08] Dan Runcie: It reminds me too, of what you used to hear of MTV back in the day as well. Right. A lot of artists, especially late eighties, early nineties, a lot of artists that went on to be huge music video artists resisted it and they would always have a bit of a you know, high brow about it. Like, oh, I'm not trying to be like the Sir Mix-a-lot baby who got back a music video, like dancing on, you know, butts and booty shaking and stuff like that. But they found their own way to make the platform unique years down the road when it became the main thing. [00:19:38] Sean Taylor: That's it, because it's you. At the end of the day, you can create the content and the platform is just how you distribute it. Now, I think there's something to be said for using the unique qualities of a platform, right? Just like albums. what people created, just like CDs impacted what people created. Just like the internet and internet culture has impacted, oh, shorter songs cause shorter intention, span longer songs. Cuz now we have more space to create. Like all those things were like, music has always been impacted by the mediums and the culture around it. Right. And I think for some reason we constantly fall into this trap of, you know, oh, SoundCloud music, TikTok music. You know, at one point in time there was I mean, well, people complain about, I've seen people complain about tape cassettes. You know, like when you look up enough, you're gonna find everybody complaining about everything, right? And then the Grammy's, what's the Grammy's formula? Everything has its success, but truthfully, I'm in their own formula for success. But truthfully, you know, especially in this independent business, you know, you don't have to play every single game. I think sometimes we find ourselves wanting things that cause us to play a game we don't want to, which is like that weird love hate thing. It's like, oh, you know, black people shouldn't pay attention and value the Grammys yet. We still want Grammys. Right. You know what I mean? It is that love and hate relationship. I think everybody's doing that with different platforms in, in, in some form of fashion. and you asked earlier, Deep and involved that we get in people's content creation. It's varying, right? we don't do it with every project, every person. It depends on the vision and also their willingness and the need that's there. But, you know, we've gone as deep as recording things ourselves. I remember one campaign. This wasn't artist generated content, it was an influencer, but we bought something off of Amazon to send her for her to wear in it because it connected with the idea. And she had like 5,000 followers at the time. And the video ended up doing like 2 million. Right. So we were like really A and R ing, cuz sometimes it's, you know, TikTok is about narrative and with the presentation, so just hold, let me go to how many followers. Cuz the beauty of TikTok is you can not have a lot of followers and still get a lot of views. But if so, if you find the right person and can contrast it in the right way. Right. You can make it move. Right. I don't want to get into that campaign cause it might be semi uncontroversial in a way. I gotta explain [00:22:23] Dan Runcie: We'll save that one for offline then, [00:22:25] Sean Taylor: yeah. We'll say that one for, offline. For sure. For sure. But yeah, man, I mean, I think what I've seen is, if people can just open their mind and not start what's moving on a platform and just think literally in Word out, "Hey, what do I want to communicate now? How do I communicate that on this platform?" It'll save a lot of stress, particularly for the artists, because artists wanna do music videos. This is nothing but another video, right? So why can't I in 60 seconds? Be creative. Use that box. That box is a framework that will inspire creativity. How can I communicate and make something really dope in 60 seconds? We've had an artist last August blow up, his profile from like 20K to 400K and did 2 million streams in about a month with very, very high quality videos. And everybody thinks you gotta be really low. To find success on TikTok and record it from your phone and have the bubbles. These were very, very high quality shots and editing, and it's darker and it worked. Right. So it's really just about dope content at the end of the day. [00:23:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. Let's switch gears a bit. I want to talk. Talk's, competitors that are also in this space wanna talk YouTube and Instagram. But let's start with YouTube first, because you had recently put out a video where you were talking about YouTube shorts, their efforts there, and you said you're not concerned about YouTube shorts' impact because it just doesn't have the culture that exists on TikTok. Can you talk more about that? [00:24:00] Sean Taylor: yeah. So the thing that made TikTok so unique, early on was it developed a culture, like once it hit that network effect, I knew it wasn't gonna go away overnight cuz there's too much money involved outside of the government stuff. But that's a different story. Right? And then culture, like people, have a different presentation and expectation on how you act on TikTok. It's looser than Instagram. That was the beauty of it, right? So that created a culture. YouTube has an established culture and relationship that they have. their audience. YouTube isn't as interactive. It's a little closer to tv. You know what I mean? And Instagram's a little bit more of a resume. Most people are putting on their best, their Sunday best, if you will. TikTok, we're involved in this together. People feel like they have the power to blow a song up on TikTok. the users feel like they're giving heavy feedback. You should drop this song. When is this gonna come out, right? It's a completely different culture that you can't just copy overnight. That's where competitive advantages get created, right? Culture. Cause it's very, very hard to mimic that. I think it's gonna be successful, but it's just not going to be a threat to TikTok in that specific way where, you know, it's like a TikTok killer or something. It's like the Jordan Stoppers. Oh yeah. You know, Jordan only scored 39 instead of 35. Cool. You might see. [00:25:26] Dan Runcie: So if it's thinking about the Kobe stopper thing, so if TikTok is Kobe Bryant then is YouTube shorts, Ruben Patterson. [00:25:37] Sean Taylor: You too might wanna take offense to that, but in this analogy, yes. [00:25:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, but I've been thinking a lot about the YouTube piece, and I will give them credit. I think the trajectory of YouTube is greater than Ruben Patterson. No disrespect, but I do think that Lyor Cohen had said something interesting. Of course, he's the head of YouTube and one of his big things is that the fact that YouTube shorts has the connection directly to the platform  [00:26:04] Sean Taylor: Yeah. [00:26:04] Dan Runcie: on-demand listening happens, he feels like that conversion rate and that connection is stronger. And he didn't name TikTok specifically, but he was essentially talking about the fact that TikTok doesn't have that same type of win. I know they have Rezo, but it's just not the same. What do you think about that? Cuz I think the underlying aspect of that is conversion and just being able to transport an audience from one to the other. What have you seen from that perspective. [00:26:29] Sean Taylor: I think Lyor Cohen is extremely smart and savvy, and reading that statement. It was hilarious cuz you know the elephants in the room that he's addressing and it was like this competitive moment happening. It was like, come on man. Say their name. Say their name. But you're like, I'm not gonna give them any clout that was really, funny to read. But I think that they do have an advantage that TikTok doesn't. Right in that way, the long form content and that mentality, I think it's gonna be a lot harder for TikTok to get people to consume shorts on their platform than it is for No. It's gonna be a lot harder for TikTok to consume long form content on their flat platform than it is gonna be for YouTube people to consume short form. Does that make sense? [00:27:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. And I feel like part of it too is the conversion rate is one thing. I don't doubt that there's likely could be a higher conversion rate, but I think that absolute number is still what makes the difference at the end of the day. And I just don't know if the overall absolute number of people that are converting from. Hearing a song on TikTok and then going to stream that artist and then becoming a follower and an avid fan of that artist is necessarily going to be a number that's ever smaller than what we may see otherwise from YouTube. I think YouTube has still had great strides in that area, but I just don't see it coming to that level. [00:27:56] Sean Taylor: no. Cause again, it's about that culture, right? So two things, I'll get to the YouTube TikTok second. But when we first got on TikTok and started working with some people on TikTok, it was ridiculous to see the conversion of people who left TikTok and went to Spotify. Instagram, these other places, but specifically, let's talk about Spotify. Why was it so ridiculous? Because at that time, TikTok did not acknowledge the music on the platform at all, right? You had people hearing the song and then googling the lyrics to find the song name and then going to stream it, and it was happening in droves. That much friction told us, holy shit, when they get rid of this friction, it's gonna go. And of course TikTok got rid of that friction. But pa the fact that people were doing that, like I remember telling some artists, yo man, you got like a dollar sign and this version of the song, and then it's like no dollar sign. Like, and so people were having difficulty finding it. It's like, bro, you're ruining people's ability to stream your song. Like that was a thing. And then people started to rename their songs or added lyrics in the parentheses, right? Because of the culture. And that was happening and they wanted to make sure people could find the song right. Now we see less of that. It goes back to like the mediums and how things are influencing. Now we see less of that cuz you can figure out what it is within TikTok and people know how to name it. So that transferability from TikTok to other platforms has just been there for so long and people almost expected it. It's almost like TikTok is the megaphone, the amplifier. But then you don't even really expect to go super deep on TikTok, right? YouTube, you kind of do expect to go deep, but when we. Look at the platforms that TikTok converted to, and this is where I say the competitive advantage of YouTube goes. YouTube was one of the greatest conversions from TikTok that we would see. Like so many people left TikTok to go to Spotify and YouTube. Instagram was last particularly for artists. Right? So now, yes, being on YouTube already, Is a great competitive advantage. I think there's some fluidity issues that they need to solve. Like right now, from the phone, from your phone, I could take this video that we're creating right now and say, yeah, I want 10 seconds to 20 seconds, and take that into a short and it'll automatically be connected. But I can't make a cool edited short that's specific to the short format, and then say it's from this video. Right. And that'll make things even smoother because it's hard to take a snippet from the long form content just from timestamps and that would be a good piece of short form content. So people have to be able to edit and then connect it back for that to really come into place. And also they would have to make it a little bit more obvious that you can do that because the culture is not yet to go from long. I'm in short form to long form within YouTube. I know it happens, but people aren't naturally having that expectation. Oh shoot. This is probably from a larger video that's on this platform. What people are seeing more on YouTube is actually, mm, it's the opposite of what allowed TikTok to become what it became, and I don't know how it's gonna play out, so I'll tell you what I'm saying. [00:31:23] Dan Runcie: What are your thoughts on Instagram reels? I think you talked a little bit about it, how it's a bit of a resume but where do they stand? [00:31:31] Sean Taylor: I don't like reels, in terms of the value add yet, it's very inaccurate. So you'll get higher numbers, less engagement, where it's pretty clear it's not going out to the right people. The best people you know, they're, padding the numbers, so to speak. Right. It's cool that it got more reach, but if it wasn't accurate and I didn't get that much following, what does it really mean? That's where reels are at large. Now, can reels work and has it still helped some songs? Yes. It's just not it's not at the proportion that TikTok has been, and I think YouTube shorts are going. definitely, beat reels. [00:32:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think the clear desire from Instagram to try to turn your entire feed into a for you page is forcing this content to not necessarily hit the right people, which is why. Yes, it could be good from a viral discovery thing where, okay, if you have a post that's doing better than 80 or 90% of your other posts, then yeah, it may reach a larger than initially intended audience, but I don't know if it could be necessarily relied on in the same type of way. [00:32:41] Sean Taylor: Yep. I agree with you there. We'll see if they figure it out maybe they should focus less on the Metaverse. [00:32:52] Dan Runcie: Another thing that you had brought up a little bit earlier was about search in general and just how powerful that's become on TikTok. I think it's clear that they want to, well, I think TikTok is trying to do anything and everything. I know this is something for folks that follow Trapital been writing about this recently, all the things they're getting involved with. But I do think search is one of those interesting things because they are trying to take on a Google Head on, and people have seen how, especially Gen Z, they may be more likely to look up something through TikTok than looking it up through Google. What do you see as the potential of that moving forward, and do you think that would be a credible threat to Google at some point? [00:33:32] Sean Taylor: yes. You know why tutorial culture, that's what TikTok cut into. And Instagram never did that. It was never really a place that you went to look up tutorials, right? So it's less about music and entertainment and that side of things. It's the fact that people are looking at recipes, right? How to fix things. And then once you have that, that's what creates the. For looking things up in the, at the seo, right? it's not that it can't be created in other ways, but that's like a hack. If I know I can go find this and, oh man, I can find it done in 60 seconds versus three minutes or 10 minutes because on YouTube the video's not as valuable and might not go as far if I don't do an intro and all this leads in, right? Oh, these videos won't go straight to it. So they have a lot of ground to make on YouTube. But I think they're going to succeed, I'm not into the speculation of which one's gonna be number one. There might be days where it beats YouTube or whatever, but it's going to be, a legitimate search engine. You know, Yahoo, Google at least. [00:34:43] Dan Runcie: I do think that the tutorial piece is key, and I'm even thinking about times I've used it in the past. We bought a mattress recently, and of course you could Google search, what does this mattress like? But sometimes it's easier to just put it in TikTok and have someone show me some unboxing video to show me what that's like and compare a few. I liked it for that. I think more broadly in terms of all of the search pieces of it. I think that what Google has done in this space and even thinking about, you know, decades back about how they beat Legos and Alta Vistas, some of those others, I think it will be hard to ever replace that for everything that's possible, that people would wanna search. But I do think that the video tutorial piece of it, which is a subsection of it, but I do think that that's a unique place where they can, if you get core to the market there, you can figure things out. I also think that either misinformation or wasted just credibly have or understanding for users to know, okay, "What is legitimate?, What is not legitimate? Is a concern, and I think it's maybe harder to do in a way where I think text, you can have some of those clear things come up where I think the nature of a viral platform wants to show things that you know, may be sensationalized to some extent through video. That may take time, but I think that's one thing that will need to develop, especially on the TikTok side of things for sure. [00:36:02] Sean Taylor: See what you're explaining is the different personalities of seo. Just like we talk about the different personalities of TikTok, Instagram and YouTube. So Google dominates damn near Monopoly. You couldn't just be a Yahoo or actually, truly become a threat, but what you could. Was be Amazon and eventually have so much shit on there that people just think, "Oh, if I want a table, I'm gonna go Amazon, look for a table, I'm not gonna go to Google", right? Or you could be a YouTube, right? And have so many videos. If I want a video tutorial, I'm just gonna go to YouTube, right? So you enter the search engine market from the side versus, you know, the [inaudible] so I think TikTok has successfully gotten there. and even that personality being short form is something that attributes to that and the personality that Google will probably hold on to,in the long term for sure is probably gonna be the more scholarly approach, right? The more credible approach because of those other platforms. that's almost in conflict with what makes things move and the way people use them, and incentives that are in place. [00:37:15] Dan Runcie: Right. That makes sense. That makes sense. The other thing too, that it'd be good to get your thoughts on with TikTok is I think a lot of this conversation and a lot of how people have been measuring the success for TikTok is that conversion from TikTok and broader social engagement to streams, what are you seeing though from the next level down? From how looking at TikTok itself can eventually translate to concert ticket sales, or whether it's V I P clubs or other high end opportunities that fans are engaging it with an artist. [00:37:50] Sean Taylor: It's there. We've already had artists do that. The difficulty is the geography of it all. So you can do that, but you aren't completely sure that the video is going to go viral enough within your own audience, right? Because still, especially like most of last year, you still can drop a TikTok and it's mostly gonna be seen by new people, especially for people earlier on, right? So if all of your followers aren't necessarily going to see your posts, it's gonna be new. then that creates this issue with going deep with your audience, right? It's great for going viral and gaining and blowing up fast. That's why it happened, right? That built TikTok in a sort of way to show it to more new people than people who are following you. But then at some point it becomes, well, what are my followers really worth? right on TikTok. And I think some people are starting to figure that out. Like, man, I don't know if this really matters all that much. It really only matters what the individual video itself does, right. So the problem with that, if I'm doing a show and I don't know if my followers will see it, or I have no idea if it's good, or enough of video because it's outside of my normal format to get enough people to see it in general. Then, man, that's not predictable enough. It could be my strategy, but it's not predictable enough. Now, the advertising might come into play, which is a different conversation, but there's that, and then again, also, who's gonna see it geographically in the world? We have no, you know, way of controlling that. Again, outside of ads so far. It's definitely something that's useful for selling things like merch, for creating awareness for your shows, but the best way we've seen it with shows for the most part, is almost to talk about your tour as a whole, right?. So you bring awareness that multiple are going to happen, and then if your artist is down for it and it kind of works within your format, you can also vlog in a way, or like let people know, oh yeah, I'm gonna be in Atlanta tonight. Right? So they see and get reminded that you are on tour, right? So it's trying to create this awareness of all the spaces and places that they will be going. And then also reminding them that you're in process of this to remind them, oh yeah, when he's gonna, when is he gonna beat in my city? That's kind of like the best middle ground we've found. But it's hard to be like, Hey, I'm gonna be in Atlanta next week and all my Atlanta people and expect all the Atlanta people to actually see that and convert. [00:40:27] Dan Runcie: Right. it's a funnel at the end of the day, right? And TikTok sits at the top of it, even higher than some other social media platforms, right? And then from there, it's always going to be hardened, honestly foolish to an extent. If your main message on the top of the funnel awareness platform is, "Hey, Join my V I P club or join my Patreon or buy tickets to my concert, right?" You need to introduce people, let them know who you are, and maybe at that next level of engagement, then you can start to push more of those things. Then you can start to have more of these things come through, because there's just gonna be less friction there and you're doing the job that should be done at each level of the. [00:41:08] Sean Taylor: I agree man. I think, like you said, at the end of the day, it always goes back to the fundamentals of it and there might be aberrations. Give us more for moments of time, but things are always gonna default back to that basic infrastructure and use the thing with the right expectations versus expecting everything from it. [00:41:30] Dan Runcie: right. The other thing that I've thought a lot about for this conversation is, and even for reading the report and rolling into the show notes, so others can take a look at it as well, but thinking about how artists generate content and having artists push is what the wave is. At least at this particular moment. And I think there's a lot of reasons to think that yes, this is what makes sense now moving forward, but we also know how quick these things change and how things have evolved. Do you see another element, like I know eventually gaining steam eventually, I know that we talked about ads, we talked about influencer campaigns and just UTC and how a lot of these things were stronger and now relatively weaker to artists generated campaigns. Is there another thing that you think is going to play a role or that we may see another shift in this. [00:42:21] Sean Taylor: The dark horse is TikTok lives. Everybody's actually. Investing more in a live culture in general when you look at YouTube, as well. but TikTok lives the way they use that for you. Page is ridiculous, man. On Instagram, you're gonna see the lives of people that you're following. Again, on TikTok, you can go live and people will discover, right? It'll pop up on the people's For You page, and that's a different paradigm, right? I've seen it live when my partner was live where all of a sudden, like thousands of people came in, right? Because TikTok was feeding him to so many people. and then he would see it also trickle off. Whereas like experimenting, they wanna find a live that's engaging in a way that content isn't, moves up the algorithmic letter, right? So they're, look, that's how they display lives. So the fact that you can blow up doing lives, it's a completely different paradigm because it's like having a show but the people who do it well, they're getting money in these lives. A lot of money. I've seen people make a lot of money in their lives, but it's also a great format to build a relationship far deeper than you can through individual content and lead people over to buy tickets. We've used lives to like getting emails and, I mean, I did one campaign even back in 2020. , that artist Fash we probably got 10,000 emails more so from him going live, not more so, only from him going live. Actually, he even use a little bit of IG live. So the fact that you can do that is going to create this other performance skill that artists will have. [00:44:06] Sean Taylor: Almost like being a salesman, right? But doing it in a way where you give the presentation and the ask isn't so blatant. it's, we're going into this climate that's going to breed so many different types of artists like that have these, you know how you could be an artist that plays an instrument or you could be an artist that sings, maybe you could do multiple, where there's now these soft skills that we'll see artists, oh man, this dude is, he's just a salesman and he knows how to entertain people on live. And that's how he plays his game. This person still is just a pure musician, or this person creates a really dope content in the box of the regular feed. There's gonna be things like that. And the thing is, these other platforms are, you know, homogenous in many ways. They keep copying each other. So that culture that starts on TikTok, it's not just a TikTok thing. I always communicated it as a new language to learn because the new generation would be used to hearing and seeing things and consuming things in this format. So they'll wanna see it on other platforms. And inevitably, right, like we have an hour podcast, two hour podcasts, and people were like, Hey man, can you make this in 60 seconds? Like they expect to be able to learn something really valuable that's gonna change their. You know, in literally 60 seconds. I mean, we literally have had those conversations and seen those comments, but everything's not, you know, how you bake a cake? People like you can't rip at everything and change your artist's career in 60 seconds. But that's what we're seeing, like live is truly a dark horse, and I think it is gonna become more prevalent in TikTok and YouTube as well, to be honest. [00:45:45] Dan Runcie: No, I can see that happening definitely just with the way things are going. But, last question before we let you go here though. So let's fast forward three years. 2026. Is TikTok still in the dominant position that it is right now? And if it isn't, is it because of geopolitical concerns or is it because of another competitor that now has the next big thing? [00:46:10] Sean Taylor: If it isn't geopolitical, I think it's gonna be pretty dominant from what I've seen. in terms of their vertical integration and investment, particularly in music. It's just nothing like any other platform like you've seen, I mean Sound On, right. Rezo. Right. It's just different in what they're trying to do. They have deals that they've offered artists. Right. Which is really nice. Right. And unique because, oh, you're on, sound on and you. You have a song that blows up using their distribution platform. They have all the data. So now we can offer you a deal and you don't have to pay it back cuz it's gonna be paid back through the royalties. We're probably using the algorithm to calculate how much we should give you anyway. Right? This is already happening. Right. So the way they invest in it, I think it's just gonna be hard to get a pool away from it in three years. again, it's going to. More of a norm, less hot in its way, but I think they're gonna be pretty dominant in three, three years down the road. Yeah. I'll, I'll leave that at that. [00:47:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I'm with you on that. I think three years, because even though I do think that TikTok has been the fastest to grow to a billion users, at least what we've seen from a social app, I do think that the next app will probably be even shorter just thinking about how much faster adoption is, but. It still took TikTok several years to get to this point, so I think maybe five, six years would be a different conversation. But no, I agree with you. Three years. If it ends up being shut down, it'll be for some geopolitical concerns, but we'll see between now and then. We'll have to check in again at some point if any of that ends up going in that direction. But Sean, it's been a pleasure man. Thank you for coming on and for people that wanna learn more about your insights on TikTok and the stuff you're doing at Contraband Agency, where should we reach out? [00:47:56] Sean Taylor: Brandman Network on YouTube is a nice place to start. You know, you watch the podcast or you just go to no labels necessary on, Spotify, but no labels necessary is our podcast. So type in no labels necessary on YouTube or, or Spotify. At the moment, I think the podcast is probably the best place to go. But if you're immediately interested in services and want to speak with our team, that would be contraband.agency. There's no.com, www.contrabrand.agency [00:48:28] Dan Runcie: Good stuff. All right. Thanks again, Sean. Appreciate you. [00:48:31] Sean Taylor: Always good speaking with you man. [00:48:33] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. The playbook for artists to go viral on TikTok has changed a lot since 2019. Sean Taylor aka “BrandMan Sean” has written and executed that playbook for his clients since the early days of TikTok. He’s the co-founder of the ContraBrand Agency, which specializes in TikTok marketing for music talent. The agency has helped artists like Macy Gray, 24kGoldn, and Trap Beckham, among others.


Sean and his team just released a global report on How Artists are Going Viral on TikTok. The report is packed with insights on artist virality on the platform. According to the report, artist-generated content (AGC) is the key to going viral today. It’s more impactful than not user-generated content (UGC) from fans and other users. AGC not only works, but it’s also a cost-effective way for independent artists to break through.


However, Sean points out that virality isn’t as easy as before. TikTok has matured, and overnight success is harder to achieve. Still, with the right strategy, Sean believes TikTok is still a second-to-none top-of-funnel marketing play. 


We broke down this tested TikTok system in our discussion. Here’s everything we covered about the platform:


[1:51] TikTok entering its maturation stage

[5:39] Second wave TikTok music artists vs. first wave

[9:10] Biggest shift on TikTok for artists

[17:13] No, artists don’t have to post dance content

[24:00] YouTube shorts lack of culture

[26:29] YouTube’s advantage over TikTok

[31:31] The problem with IG Reels

[33:32] TikTok pushing Google for search dominance

[38:55] TikTok as a marketing funnel

[42:21] The rise of TikTok live

[46:10] Predicting where TikTok will be in three years


How Artists are Going Viral on TikTok in 2022 report:

https://www.contrabrand.agency/tiktokglobalreport2022



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Sean Taylor, @brandmansean


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital


Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.


TRANSCRIPTION

Trapital #Sean Taylor

[00:00:00] Sean Taylor: One of the problems that people were having were them blowing up right? Without being able to connect to an actual face, right? So it solves so many of the problems that come with that, and even helps the problem of TikTok’s algorithm where people just hop on and start running things up with ads and you haven't really even understood what your content looks like, that creates some algorithmic problems, which probably aren't worth getting into, here, or maybe they are, but yeah. Man, artists generate content. It's gonna be a love hate relationship for sure with artists, the labels, all of us, right? But, if anything, it'll force collaboration and synergy between teams, in ways that it hasn't before.

[00:00:42] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more. Who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:42] Dan Runcie: All right, today we are joined by my guy, Brandman Sean, Sean Taylor, who is back on the podcast for a second time now, and I wanted to have him on because there's so much that's happening with TikTok, with short form video and how artists are using it. And his company, the contraband agency just put out a report that dives deep into this, and he talks about this often on his platform, the Brandman Network. So Sean, let's level for a little bit, and I feel like TikTok is in such an interesting place right now, 2023. It's not some of that same rapid growth that it may have had a couple years ago, but it's still so essential for artists. How do you feel about where the platform is right now?

[00:01:51] Sean Taylor: I think it's in a really good space actually. It's in a maturation space. The problem with that is people aren't seeing hits come as easy on the platform. and they're actually using that to downplay the platform and say, TikTok isn't that impactful, or it's not that big of a deal. It's hard to get a hit on TikTok. The difference is it's now a normal marketing infrastructure within your whole overall marketing stack. So yeah, there was this hot period where you were getting like gains that you probably didn't even deserve. Right. Every shock, swish, nothing but net. Now you have to do what you're supposed to do in every other space. So I think a lot of the pain that people are feeling isn't necessarily TikTok not being effective. It's TikTok not being unreasonably effective, unbelievably effective. The thing that made me get on TikTok, back in 2019. It's in an interesting space, but I think it's in a good space actually. And I can go deeper into that specific argument and why I see it that way. Cuz there's some numbers and milestones that I kind of think of it and approach it from, but yeah, that's where I think TikTok is right now. It's new, it's a viable marketing channel, but it's not the marketing channel that everybody is going to be as excited about as they were.

[00:03:24] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you said this because there's been a bunch of reports about how TikTok has slowed down about how artists are starting to complain, and I've heard many A-list artists, even privately and publicly complain that things are popping the way they used to. But this isn't 2019 anymore. It may take some actual marketing expertise since some clever thinking about how to find things in. I remember one of the reports I said was talking about how you can't just give some post or some link to Addison Rae and then hope that someone like that goes and blows the whole thing up for you and makes you a superstar. You have to find your niches and build from there. And in reading that, it's like, well that sounds like what it's like to grow any type of career, and that's probably how it should be, right?

[00:04:11] Sean Taylor: Exactly. Should it be that you pay one person and everything just blows up. Not really. I would love it to be that way for me, you know? But look, that's just the reality of how marketing works. So you can still get that number to grow and get millions of streams, but that millions might come a little bit slower. And now when it hits that 2 million mark, 3 million mark, probably even before that, it's gonna take a lot more heavy lifting to get it over the hump where, That thing could just keep going like a rocket ship straight to 2030 and not stop, right? So it's a great space to get things off the ground and create the spark, but going beyond that spark is more difficult.

[00:04:59] Dan Runcie: In past years, we saw record labels signing a bunch of artists that came from TikTok, and I would assume that because of this rocket ship success, people didn't have the infrastructure behind them. A lot of those stories probably didn't end up panning out the way that they thought they would, maybe even at a lower rate than the average hit rate for. Otherwise artists at a record label are assigned. But I would think now that things have matured a bit, the artists that are actually coming to the forefront are likely gonna have more behind them. And because of that, B, the potential to actually maybe have a more sustainable career than that first wave of artists who just benefited from a very aggressive area.

[00:05:39] Sean Taylor: Yeah. I mean, I think the thing is people hadn't really seen anything like that before, right? Like yeah, there had been one hit wonder. That has happened and someone who's seasoning the game probably understands what needs to take place. But to constantly have day after day someone popping out of nowhere like a breakneck speed level and trying to figure out how to bring infrastructure up, up under all these artists at the same time is a completely different story. Cuz it's also a different story when you have these artists housed under you, and then things take off really fast. You're taking them, you're trying to create a deal and figure out how to sign them, and then create infrastructure. By the time some of these deals take place, a lot of that moment is already missed, right? So, it was a really weird space, and I'm sure there's labels that have more of an infrastructure that's prepared for that situation. It's like, oh, if we bring somebody in from that particular climate, then there's a specific path that we can take 'em. Whether we expedite some things or we start here versus there, I'm sure that's there. But TikTok was really weird watching in the beginning because you had all these people blowing up and many didn't even wanna blow up, right? Like you had kids just using the platform and blowing up, they were an artist or just a regular influence or whatever you call 'em. They were just doing what kids normally do on apps and became stars overnight, which is very different from the artist who wants to be an artist. And then they take off. These are kids who are in their experimentational experimentation phase, kind of just having fun playing with things. And then it might be a hit song, right in a bed without even them trying to pursue it. So it created this really interesting space on TikTok and unfortunately, where I saw early on there were so many artists I don't wanna say artists, actually, less artists, more general content, creators falling prey to opportunist managers and companies because artists fortunately, have had a lot of education in these pages. I'm not saying artists don't ever have bad deals and situations, but there's a very common knowledge almost at this point that's been put out for artists getting in bad deals, avoiding bad deals, what you should do, in the culture, that education is out there as a regular content creator. That information isn't out there. Right. But it's very similar. So I actually saw like a lot of kids being signed by managers who had nothing to do with the industry at all. They're just like, "Hey, I'm just about to sign 51 situation I'm literally thinking about and he's telling me, yeah man, I just signed 50 content creators right to a management deal." And then thinking of it only from the standpoint of if I leverage these 50, then I'm gonna be able to get me a bigger deal, hopefully. But he doesn't have any relationships in place. There's no individual incentive to make any of the individual influencers blow up. It's more just, Hey, let me get stable so I can leverage the stable and, most of those deals fell apart, down the road. Or hopefully the parents kind of figured it out. But I know some who got burned really bad, but things were moving so fast. Like it was crazy. So a lot of parents were. Okay, this guy knows two or three people in the industry and you know, but everybody in the industry knows two or three people. So, but for people who don't have a child in the entertainment industry, and they never had any plans and they have no idea what to do, that sounds good. So TikTok was very crazy at the beginning. It was the wild, wild west. Now we're in this period where I think everybody has figured it out. Not everybody, but many people have figured out how to create more infrastructure. The problem is now the game is harder and that's how life works, right? It's like, dang, the moment I figured this shit out. Right? Things change a little bit. but you referenced my report earlier. I think the thing that was the biggest shift was the artist has to do more work. And that's what people feel more than anything. We could do everything and the artists were doing nothing and we were blowing songs. and now it's like, dang, I gotta get my artist to participate. And we all know how hard it can be to get the artist to participate in some things, especially content, right? but you know, that's created a space for those artists who truly do have a knack for content and that drive and honestly stamina to play that content. They've been able to make a lot happen, get a lot of organic streams, which makes it so much easier on the team cuz you still gotta do your job and make it, blow from there. But I know several artists that we work with who are getting their songs to 500,000 streams, 1 million streams, 10 million streams. Right. Any other form of marketing, just their content. So that's a huge benefit, and that's what I think the silver lining needs to be. The fact that we have that is still something we did not have in 2018 for music specifically, so that we need to appreciate and have gratitude for our blessings.

[00:11:00] Dan Runcie: Let's dive into this a little bit because I think this point about artist generated content versus user-generated content is key. And I know it is a big part of your report as well, because I think for years now, we've heard so many people, even TikTok Head of Music just said this at the Nylon conference a couple days ago, was talking about how it's so key to be able to get the fans, to make the videos and get involved and things like that. And while that's still important, you're saying what actually can move the needle even more is getting the artist, even if they're reluctant to do it, getting the artist to do it themselves and having the two of them together and even more so the artist piece of it can really help push things forward.

[00:11:42] Sean Taylor: Right. 100%. See, we realized this in 2020, in the trenches, you see this guy post a video, right? And we construct this concept. and you get a hundred thousand streams and just off of your video. Right? And that was amazing at that time to really see that he got a hundred thousand streams. And oh, by the way, there weren't really any replications to his video or sound. It had nothing to do with the dance. It hadn't had anything to do with influencers at all. He had the right creative concept, right? Hundred thousand streams. And for the artist that he was, you know, you're talking about pretty much no listeners, that's a massive number, especially just from one post and even better a post from him. Right. With not much of a following at all. He probably only had like 20,000 followers on Instagram at the time. Right? So we saw that and then I devised this campaign with the artist. Ironically, I just got off a call with this artist. We did like a little Google chat named Fash and Kid in Australia, right? He has some followers, probably a hundred thousand, 200,000 at this time. literally never dropped the song a day in his life at this moment, right? And he's like, “Yo, Sean, I've watched some of your videos and stuff on YouTube, and like, I wanna figure out how to release this song. I'm releasing it next week. What should I do? First of all, "Hey, don't release it next week", you know what I mean? Like, let's talk. Right? So, we made it a month from there, we created this entire narrative driven campaign. And just from him posting it was all based on his post, right? I actually took the marketing method that I blew up my music festival with, before I was doing, like working with artists, and it was all organic posts, right? So I had a structure that I used, and that was literally just him posting on his page. He got 1 million streams on his very first song, right? So, It wasn't one single post that made everything take off, but it was a system of post, and those were all pre, well, primarily pre-release. And then there were some things that were done, but this is 2020, so we're like, man, just posting all right on your page can take you far. The problem, I won't even say the problem was, but the thing is, paying influencers were still working like crazy at that time, right? So we didn't have an incentive to like to lean in it as heavy for artists that, you know, we would, were a little bit harder to get onto the platform and make work. Now, it's one of those things where, okay, look, we really want you to start here because the way things are set up today. If you don't do this and create this foundation, a lot of that other stuff won't bring anywhere near as big of a gain as it did. But yeah, back then we saw success with, or artist generated content, influencers. There were things that we called TikTok creators. We saw all these different types of games, but literally paying influencers was working so great at that time it was like, ah, why do anything else But yeah, artist generated content. Man, it's the way, man, it is the foundation of how I believe. things should be ran today. But of course, the caveat with every artist still has a different path, right? So your artist generated content might look different or artist generated content. There are outliers where that just won't be prevalent for you, but as a general way in a business approach. I love the fact that, one, you're creating fans in visibility for no money, right? You know, however much it costs to create your content, but generally speaking, no money. Two, you're testing. Songs before you actually put money behind them. Right? Three, if something blows, you already have a presence on the platform to connect people to. Because one of the problems that people were having was, were them blowing up right? Without being able to connect to an actual face, right? So it solves so many of the problems that come with that, and even helps the problem of TikTok’s algorithm where people just hop on and start running things up with ads and you haven't really even understood what your content looks like, that creates some algorithmic problems, which probably aren't worth getting into, here, or maybe they are, but yeah. Man, artists generate content. It's gonna be a love hate relationship for sure with artists, the labels, all of us, right? But, if anything, it'll force collaboration and synergy between teams, in ways that it hasn't before.

[00:16:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I got the impression that from the TikTok head of music, making the comments about user-generated content, of course there's plenty to back that up, but I also saw it as a bit of a positioning to not take the stance that I think some of the labels have taken, where I think that the labels have come a bit of the public enemy of the artists who don't wanna be active on TikTok. We all saw the viral post that happened last towards the end of 2022. It was Florence, Florence of the machine and Halsey and others saying like, Hey, the label's making me do this. But I feel like there's so many ways to go about making short form videos and making content. How involved do you get with that piece of it? Cuz I think some of that is because people still think that artists need to be doing one of these like, you know, vertical TikTok dances that fit in something like they're Jason Derulo or something like that, but you don't necessarily have to do.

[00:17:13] Sean Taylor: No, you do not. So again, this is one of those things that I was telling people back in 2020, but the problem was, again, dancers were working so hard and so well, no one's gonna believe you. Right? But we were only seeing the commercial level, right? And everything has levels to it, just like the industry, right? You have pop music and there's some genres that. For less far reaching than pop, but they're successful. Right. So that's what I attribute seeing Dances in 2020 work on TikTok. However, there were other things that were working right? like people thought you had to be a super upbeat hip hop song, cash pages song that blew, was nothing of the sort. Right? But so I think that for one, people have to understand that it just goes back to being creative. At the end of the day, and unfortunately many artists stop thinking creatively once they leave the studio, right? And I don't think it's all the artists now. I used to just blame it on the artist where it's like, bro, you're supposed to be an artist. You wanna be creative, right? Artist means more than a musician. Musician is just music, but artist creativity, that's what we're looking at you for. You have to show creativity and how you present yourself in this content. But I think what happened was there was so much working in terms of these trends, and they saw so many. Finding success so fast, it kind of demoralized them into thinking I have to follow these specific formats to find success myself. Right? So when I hear TikTok, I hear TikTok in a specific way, not just another platform that I can distribute my video on. You know what I mean? It would be like, oh yeah, you could create a movie, but it has to be a romcom. That's kind of what they're hearing, right?. That's not the truth though, right?

[00:19:08] Dan Runcie: It reminds me too, of what you used to hear of MTV back in the day as well. Right. A lot of artists, especially late eighties, early nineties, a lot of artists that went on to be huge music video artists resisted it and they would always have a bit of a you know, high brow about it. Like, oh, I'm not trying to be like the Sir Mix-a-lot baby who got back a music video, like dancing on, you know, butts and booty shaking and stuff like that. But they found their own way to make the platform unique years down the road when it became the main thing.

[00:19:38] Sean Taylor: That's it, because it's you. At the end of the day, you can create the content and the platform is just how you distribute it. Now, I think there's something to be said for using the unique qualities of a platform, right? Just like albums. what people created, just like CDs impacted what people created. Just like the internet and internet culture has impacted, oh, shorter songs cause shorter intention, span longer songs. Cuz now we have more space to create. Like all those things were like, music has always been impacted by the mediums and the culture around it. Right. And I think for some reason we constantly fall into this trap of, you know, oh, SoundCloud music, TikTok music. You know, at one point in time there was I mean, well, people complain about, I've seen people complain about tape cassettes. You know, like when you look up enough, you're gonna find everybody complaining about everything, right? And then the Grammy's, what's the Grammy's formula? Everything has its success, but truthfully, I'm in their own formula for success. But truthfully, you know, especially in this independent business, you know, you don't have to play every single game. I think sometimes we find ourselves wanting things that cause us to play a game we don't want to, which is like that weird love hate thing. It's like, oh, you know, black people shouldn't pay attention and value the Grammys yet. We still want Grammys. Right. You know what I mean? It is that love and hate relationship. I think everybody's doing that with different platforms in, in, in some form of fashion. and you asked earlier, Deep and involved that we get in people's content creation. It's varying, right? we don't do it with every project, every person. It depends on the vision and also their willingness and the need that's there. But, you know, we've gone as deep as recording things ourselves. I remember one campaign. This wasn't artist generated content, it was an influencer, but we bought something off of Amazon to send her for her to wear in it because it connected with the idea. And she had like 5,000 followers at the time. And the video ended up doing like 2 million. Right. So we were like really A and R ing, cuz sometimes it's, you know, TikTok is about narrative and with the presentation, so just hold, let me go to how many followers. Cuz the beauty of TikTok is you can not have a lot of followers and still get a lot of views.

But if so, if you find the right person and can contrast it in the right way. Right. You can make it move. Right. I don't want to get into that campaign cause it might be semi uncontroversial in a way. I gotta explain

[00:22:23] Dan Runcie: We'll save that one for offline then,

[00:22:25] Sean Taylor: yeah. We'll say that one for, offline. For sure. For sure. But yeah, man, I mean, I think what I've seen is, if people can just open their mind and not start what's moving on a platform and just think literally in Word out, "Hey, what do I want to communicate now? How do I communicate that on this platform?" It'll save a lot of stress, particularly for the artists, because artists wanna do music videos. This is nothing but another video, right? So why can't I in 60 seconds? Be creative. Use that box. That box is a framework that will inspire creativity. How can I communicate and make something really dope in 60 seconds? We've had an artist last August blow up, his profile from like 20K to 400K and did 2 million streams in about a month with very, very high quality videos. And everybody thinks you gotta be really low. To find success on TikTok and record it from your phone and have the bubbles. These were very, very high quality shots and editing, and it's darker and it worked. Right. So it's really just about dope content at the end of the day.

[00:23:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. Let's switch gears a bit. I want to talk. Talk's, competitors that are also in this space wanna talk YouTube and Instagram. But let's start with YouTube first, because you had recently put out a video where you were talking about YouTube shorts, their efforts there, and you said you're not concerned about YouTube shorts' impact because it just doesn't have the culture that exists on TikTok. Can you talk more about that?

[00:24:00] Sean Taylor: yeah. So the thing that made TikTok so unique, early on was it developed a culture, like once it hit that network effect, I knew it wasn't gonna go away overnight cuz there's too much money involved outside of the government stuff. But that's a different story. Right? And then culture, like people, have a different presentation and expectation on how you act on TikTok. It's looser than Instagram. That was the beauty of it, right? So that created a culture. YouTube has an established culture and relationship that they have. their audience. YouTube isn't as interactive. It's a little closer to tv. You know what I mean? And Instagram's a little bit more of a resume. Most people are putting on their best, their Sunday best, if you will. TikTok, we're involved in this together. People feel like they have the power to blow a song up on TikTok. the users feel like they're giving heavy feedback. You should drop this song. When is this gonna come out, right? It's a completely different culture that you can't just copy overnight. That's where competitive advantages get created, right? Culture. Cause it's very, very hard to mimic that. I think it's gonna be successful, but it's just not going to be a threat to TikTok in that specific way where, you know, it's like a TikTok killer or something. It's like the Jordan Stoppers. Oh yeah. You know, Jordan only scored 39 instead of 35. Cool. You might see.

[00:25:26] Dan Runcie: So if it's thinking about the Kobe stopper thing, so if TikTok is Kobe Bryant then is YouTube shorts, Ruben Patterson.

[00:25:37] Sean Taylor: You too might wanna take offense to that, but in this analogy, yes.

[00:25:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, but I've been thinking a lot about the YouTube piece, and I will give them credit. I think the trajectory of YouTube is greater than Ruben Patterson. No disrespect, but I do think that Lyor Cohen had said something interesting. Of course, he's the head of YouTube and one of his big things is that the fact that YouTube shorts has the connection directly to the platform 

[00:26:04] Sean Taylor: Yeah.

[00:26:04] Dan Runcie: on-demand listening happens, he feels like that conversion rate and that connection is stronger. And he didn't name TikTok specifically, but he was essentially talking about the fact that TikTok doesn't have that same type of win. I know they have Rezo, but it's just not the same. What do you think about that? Cuz I think the underlying aspect of that is conversion and just being able to transport an audience from one to the other. What have you seen from that perspective.

[00:26:29] Sean Taylor: I think Lyor Cohen is extremely smart and savvy, and reading that statement. It was hilarious cuz you know the elephants in the room that he's addressing and it was like this competitive moment happening. It was like, come on man. Say their name. Say their name. But you're like, I'm not gonna give them any clout that was really, funny to read. But I think that they do have an advantage that TikTok doesn't. Right in that way, the long form content and that mentality, I think it's gonna be a lot harder for TikTok to get people to consume shorts on their platform than it is for No. It's gonna be a lot harder for TikTok to consume long form content on their flat platform than it is gonna be for YouTube people to consume short form. Does that make sense?

[00:27:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. And I feel like part of it too is the conversion rate is one thing. I don't doubt that there's likely could be a higher conversion rate, but I think that absolute number is still what makes the difference at the end of the day. And I just don't know if the overall absolute number of people that are converting from. Hearing a song on TikTok and then going to stream that artist and then becoming a follower and an avid fan of that artist is necessarily going to be a number that's ever smaller than what we may see otherwise from YouTube. I think YouTube has still had great strides in that area, but I just don't see it coming to that level.

[00:27:56] Sean Taylor: no. Cause again, it's about that culture, right? So two things, I'll get to the YouTube TikTok second. But when we first got on TikTok and started working with some people on TikTok, it was ridiculous to see the conversion of people who left TikTok and went to Spotify. Instagram, these other places, but specifically, let's talk about Spotify. Why was it so ridiculous? Because at that time, TikTok did not acknowledge the music on the platform at all, right? You had people hearing the song and then googling the lyrics to find the song name and then going to stream it, and it was happening in droves. That much friction told us, holy shit, when they get rid of this friction, it's gonna go. And of course TikTok got rid of that friction. But pa the fact that people were doing that, like I remember telling some artists, yo man, you got like a dollar sign and this version of the song, and then it's like no dollar sign. Like, and so people were having difficulty finding it. It's like, bro, you're ruining people's ability to stream your song. Like that was a thing. And then people started to rename their songs or added lyrics in the parentheses, right? Because of the culture. And that was happening and they wanted to make sure people could find the song right. Now we see less of that. It goes back to like the mediums and how things are influencing. Now we see less of that cuz you can figure out what it is within TikTok and people know how to name it. So that transferability from TikTok to other platforms has just been there for so long and people almost expected it. It's almost like TikTok is the megaphone, the amplifier. But then you don't even really expect to go super deep on TikTok, right? YouTube, you kind of do expect to go deep, but when we. Look at the platforms that TikTok converted to, and this is where I say the competitive advantage of YouTube goes. YouTube was one of the greatest conversions from TikTok that we would see. Like so many people left TikTok to go to Spotify and YouTube. Instagram was last particularly for artists. Right? So now, yes, being on YouTube already, Is a great competitive advantage. I think there's some fluidity issues that they need to solve. Like right now, from the phone, from your phone, I could take this video that we're creating right now and say, yeah, I want 10 seconds to 20 seconds, and take that into a short and it'll automatically be connected. But I can't make a cool edited short that's specific to the short format, and then say it's from this video. Right. And that'll make things even smoother because it's hard to take a snippet from the long form content just from timestamps and that would be a good piece of short form content. So people have to be able to edit and then connect it back for that to really come into place. And also they would have to make it a little bit more obvious that you can do that because the culture is not yet to go from long. I'm in short form to long form within YouTube. I know it happens, but people aren't naturally having that expectation. Oh shoot. This is probably from a larger video that's on this platform. What people are seeing more on YouTube is actually, mm, it's the opposite of what allowed TikTok to become what it became, and I don't know how it's gonna play out, so I'll tell you what I'm saying.

[00:31:23] Dan Runcie: What are your thoughts on Instagram reels? I think you talked a little bit about it, how it's a bit of a resume but where do they stand?

[00:31:31] Sean Taylor: I don't like reels, in terms of the value add yet, it's very inaccurate. So you'll get higher numbers, less engagement, where it's pretty clear it's not going out to the right people. The best people you know, they're, padding the numbers, so to speak. Right. It's cool that it got more reach, but if it wasn't accurate and I didn't get that much following, what does it really mean? That's where reels are at large. Now, can reels work and has it still helped some songs? Yes. It's just not it's not at the proportion that TikTok has been, and I think YouTube shorts are going. definitely, beat reels.

[00:32:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think the clear desire from Instagram to try to turn your entire feed into a for you page is forcing this content to not necessarily hit the right people, which is why. Yes, it could be good from a viral discovery thing where, okay, if you have a post that's doing better than 80 or 90% of your other posts, then yeah, it may reach a larger than initially intended audience, but I don't know if it could be necessarily relied on in the same type of way.

[00:32:41] Sean Taylor: Yep. I agree with you there. We'll see if they figure it out maybe they should focus less on the Metaverse.

[00:32:52] Dan Runcie: Another thing that you had brought up a little bit earlier was about search in general and just how powerful that's become on TikTok. I think it's clear that they want to, well, I think TikTok is trying to do anything and everything. I know this is something for folks that follow Trapital been writing about this recently, all the things they're getting involved with. But I do think search is one of those interesting things because they are trying to take on a Google Head on, and people have seen how, especially Gen Z, they may be more likely to look up something through TikTok than looking it up through Google. What do you see as the potential of that moving forward, and do you think that would be a credible threat to Google at some point?

[00:33:32] Sean Taylor: yes. You know why tutorial culture, that's what TikTok cut into. And Instagram never did that. It was never really a place that you went to look up tutorials, right? So it's less about music and entertainment and that side of things. It's the fact that people are looking at recipes, right? How to fix things. And then once you have that, that's what creates the. For looking things up in the, at the seo, right? it's not that it can't be created in other ways, but that's like a hack. If I know I can go find this and, oh man, I can find it done in 60 seconds versus three minutes or 10 minutes because on YouTube the video's not as valuable and might not go as far if I don't do an intro and all this leads in, right? Oh, these videos won't go straight to it. So they have a lot of ground to make on YouTube. But I think they're going to succeed, I'm not into the speculation of which one's gonna be number one. There might be days where it beats YouTube or whatever, but it's going to be, a legitimate search engine. You know, Yahoo, Google at least.

[00:34:43] Dan Runcie: I do think that the tutorial piece is key, and I'm even thinking about times I've used it in the past. We bought a mattress recently, and of course you could Google search, what does this mattress like? But sometimes it's easier to just put it in TikTok and have someone show me some unboxing video to show me what that's like and compare a few. I liked it for that. I think more broadly in terms of all of the search pieces of it. I think that what Google has done in this space and even thinking about, you know, decades back about how they beat Legos and Alta Vistas, some of those others, I think it will be hard to ever replace that for everything that's possible, that people would wanna search. But I do think that the video tutorial piece of it, which is a subsection of it, but I do think that that's a unique place where they can, if you get core to the market there, you can figure things out. I also think that either misinformation or wasted just credibly have or understanding for users to know, okay, "What is legitimate?, What is not legitimate? Is a concern, and I think it's maybe harder to do in a way where I think text, you can have some of those clear things come up where I think the nature of a viral platform wants to show things that you know, may be sensationalized to some extent through video. That may take time, but I think that's one thing that will need to develop, especially on the TikTok side of things for sure.

[00:36:02] Sean Taylor: See what you're explaining is the different personalities of seo. Just like we talk about the different personalities of TikTok, Instagram and YouTube. So Google dominates damn near Monopoly. You couldn't just be a Yahoo or actually, truly become a threat, but what you could. Was be Amazon and eventually have so much shit on there that people just think, "Oh, if I want a table, I'm gonna go Amazon, look for a table, I'm not gonna go to Google", right? Or you could be a YouTube, right? And have so many videos. If I want a video tutorial, I'm just gonna go to YouTube, right? So you enter the search engine market from the side versus, you know, the [inaudible] so I think TikTok has successfully gotten there. and even that personality being short form is something that attributes to that and the personality that Google will probably hold on to,in the long term for sure is probably gonna be the more scholarly approach, right? The more credible approach because of those other platforms. that's almost in conflict with what makes things move and the way people use them, and incentives that are in place.

[00:37:15] Dan Runcie: Right. That makes sense. That makes sense. The other thing too, that it'd be good to get your thoughts on with TikTok is I think a lot of this conversation and a lot of how people have been measuring the success for TikTok is that conversion from TikTok and broader social engagement to streams, what are you seeing though from the next level down? From how looking at TikTok itself can eventually translate to concert ticket sales, or whether it's V I P clubs or other high end opportunities that fans are engaging it with an artist.

[00:37:50] Sean Taylor: It's there. We've already had artists do that. The difficulty is the geography of it all. So you can do that, but you aren't completely sure that the video is going to go viral enough within your own audience, right? Because still, especially like most of last year, you still can drop a TikTok and it's mostly gonna be seen by new people, especially for people earlier on, right? So if all of your followers aren't necessarily going to see your posts, it's gonna be new. then that creates this issue with going deep with your audience, right? It's great for going viral and gaining and blowing up fast. That's why it happened, right? That built TikTok in a sort of way to show it to more new people than people who are following you. But then at some point it becomes, well, what are my followers really worth? right on TikTok. And I think some people are starting to figure that out. Like, man, I don't know if this really matters all that much. It really only matters what the individual video itself does, right. So the problem with that, if I'm doing a show and I don't know if my followers will see it, or I have no idea if it's good, or enough of video because it's outside of my normal format to get enough people to see it in general. Then, man, that's not predictable enough. It could be my strategy, but it's not predictable enough. Now, the advertising might come into play, which is a different conversation, but there's that, and then again, also, who's gonna see it geographically in the world? We have no, you know, way of controlling that. Again, outside of ads so far. It's definitely something that's useful for selling things like merch, for creating awareness for your shows, but the best way we've seen it with shows for the most part, is almost to talk about your tour as a whole, right?. So you bring awareness that multiple are going to happen, and then if your artist is down for it and it kind of works within your format, you can also vlog in a way, or like let people know, oh yeah, I'm gonna be in Atlanta tonight. Right? So they see and get reminded that you are on tour, right? So it's trying to create this awareness of all the spaces and places that they will be going. And then also reminding them that you're in process of this to remind them, oh yeah, when he's gonna, when is he gonna beat in my city? That's kind of like the best middle ground we've found. But it's hard to be like, Hey, I'm gonna be in Atlanta next week and all my Atlanta people and expect all the Atlanta people to actually see that and convert.

[00:40:27] Dan Runcie: Right. it's a funnel at the end of the day, right? And TikTok sits at the top of it, even higher than some other social media platforms, right? And then from there, it's always going to be hardened, honestly foolish to an extent. If your main message on the top of the funnel awareness platform is, "Hey, Join my V I P club or join my Patreon or buy tickets to my concert, right?" You need to introduce people, let them know who you are, and maybe at that next level of engagement, then you can start to push more of those things. Then you can start to have more of these things come through, because there's just gonna be less friction there and you're doing the job that should be done at each level of the.

[00:41:08] Sean Taylor: I agree man. I think, like you said, at the end of the day, it always goes back to the fundamentals of it and there might be aberrations. Give us more for moments of time, but things are always gonna default back to that basic infrastructure and use the thing with the right expectations versus expecting everything from it.

[00:41:30] Dan Runcie: right. The other thing that I've thought a lot about for this conversation is, and even for reading the report and rolling into the show notes, so others can take a look at it as well, but thinking about how artists generate content and having artists push is what the wave is. At least at this particular moment. And I think there's a lot of reasons to think that yes, this is what makes sense now moving forward, but we also know how quick these things change and how things have evolved. Do you see another element, like I know eventually gaining steam eventually, I know that we talked about ads, we talked about influencer campaigns and just UTC and how a lot of these things were stronger and now relatively weaker to artists generated campaigns. Is there another thing that you think is going to play a role or that we may see another shift in this.

[00:42:21] Sean Taylor: The dark horse is TikTok lives. Everybody's actually. Investing more in a live culture in general when you look at YouTube, as well. but TikTok lives the way they use that for you. Page is ridiculous, man. On Instagram, you're gonna see the lives of people that you're following. Again, on TikTok, you can go live and people will discover, right? It'll pop up on the people's For You page, and that's a different paradigm, right? I've seen it live when my partner was live where all of a sudden, like thousands of people came in, right? Because TikTok was feeding him to so many people. and then he would see it also trickle off. Whereas like experimenting, they wanna find a live that's engaging in a way that content isn't, moves up the algorithmic letter, right? So they're, look, that's how they display lives. So the fact that you can blow up doing lives, it's a completely different paradigm because it's like having a show but the people who do it well, they're getting money in these lives. A lot of money. I've seen people make a lot of money in their lives, but it's also a great format to build a relationship far deeper than you can through individual content and lead people over to buy tickets. We've used lives to like getting emails and, I mean, I did one campaign even back in 2020. , that artist Fash we probably got 10,000 emails more so from him going live, not more so, only from him going live. Actually, he even use a little bit of IG live. So the fact that you can do that is going to create this other performance skill that artists will have.

[00:44:06] Sean Taylor: Almost like being a salesman, right? But doing it in a way where you give the presentation and the ask isn't so blatant. it's, we're going into this climate that's going to breed so many different types of artists like that have these, you know how you could be an artist that plays an instrument or you could be an artist that sings, maybe you could do multiple, where there's now these soft skills that we'll see artists, oh man, this dude is, he's just a salesman and he knows how to entertain people on live. And that's how he plays his game. This person still is just a pure musician, or this person creates a really dope content in the box of the regular feed. There's gonna be things like that. And the thing is, these other platforms are, you know, homogenous in many ways. They keep copying each other. So that culture that starts on TikTok, it's not just a TikTok thing. I always communicated it as a new language to learn because the new generation would be used to hearing and seeing things and consuming things in this format. So they'll wanna see it on other platforms. And inevitably, right, like we have an hour podcast, two hour podcasts, and people were like, Hey man, can you make this in 60 seconds? Like they expect to be able to learn something really valuable that's gonna change their. You know, in literally 60 seconds. I mean, we literally have had those conversations and seen those comments, but everything's not, you know, how you bake a cake? People like you can't rip at everything and change your artist's career in 60 seconds. But that's what we're seeing, like live is truly a dark horse, and I think it is gonna become more prevalent in TikTok and YouTube as well, to be honest.

[00:45:45] Dan Runcie: No, I can see that happening definitely just with the way things are going. But, last question before we let you go here though. So let's fast forward three years. 2026. Is TikTok still in the dominant position that it is right now? And if it isn't, is it because of geopolitical concerns or is it because of another competitor that now has the next big thing?

[00:46:10] Sean Taylor: If it isn't geopolitical, I think it's gonna be pretty dominant from what I've seen. in terms of their vertical integration and investment, particularly in music. It's just nothing like any other platform like you've seen, I mean Sound On, right. Rezo. Right. It's just different in what they're trying to do. They have deals that they've offered artists. Right. Which is really nice. Right. And unique because, oh, you're on, sound on and you. You have a song that blows up using their distribution platform. They have all the data. So now we can offer you a deal and you don't have to pay it back cuz it's gonna be paid back through the royalties. We're probably using the algorithm to calculate how much we should give you anyway. Right? This is already happening. Right. So the way they invest in it, I think it's just gonna be hard to get a pool away from it in three years. again, it's going to. More of a norm, less hot in its way, but I think they're gonna be pretty dominant in three, three years down the road. Yeah. I'll, I'll leave that at that.

[00:47:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I'm with you on that. I think three years, because even though I do think that TikTok has been the fastest to grow to a billion users, at least what we've seen from a social app, I do think that the next app will probably be even shorter just thinking about how much faster adoption is, but. It still took TikTok several years to get to this point, so I think maybe five, six years would be a different conversation. But no, I agree with you. Three years. If it ends up being shut down, it'll be for some geopolitical concerns, but we'll see between now and then. We'll have to check in again at some point if any of that ends up going in that direction. But Sean, it's been a pleasure man. Thank you for coming on and for people that wanna learn more about your insights on TikTok and the stuff you're doing at Contraband Agency, where should we reach out?

[00:47:56] Sean Taylor: Brandman Network on YouTube is a nice place to start. You know, you watch the podcast or you just go to no labels necessary on, Spotify, but no labels necessary is our podcast. So type in no labels necessary on YouTube or, or Spotify. At the moment, I think the podcast is probably the best place to go. But if you're immediately interested in services and want to speak with our team, that would be contraband.agency. There's no.com, www.contrabrand.agency

[00:48:28] Dan Runcie: Good stuff. All right. Thanks again, Sean. Appreciate you.

[00:48:31] Sean Taylor: Always good speaking with you man.

[00:48:33] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.



]]> 2949 no How Cash Money Records Pulled Off Hip-Hop’s Louisiana Purchase (with Zack O’Malley Greenburg) https://www.trapital.com/podcast Everybody’s got something to say about Cash Money Records and the brothers who co-founded the label —Bryan “Birdman” Williams and Ronald “Slim” Williams. To paint the full Cash Money full picture, good and bad, I brought on Zack O’Malley Greenberg who has interviewed the brothers at-length while working at Forbes. Cash Money has one of the deepest catalogs in the game with several classics. And unlike some other upstart hip-hop labels, Birdman and Slim maintained control as they rose up. Their 1998 distribution deal with Universal is hip-hop’s Louisiana Purchase. But we can’t ignore Cash Money’s lows either. There is a long, long list of artists who claim they were not compensated fairly by Birdman and Slim. Zack and I go through 30 years of Cash Money as a business, its competitive advantage, and what comes next now that Drake and Wayne are gone from the label.  [1:44] Is Cash Money the greatest hip-hop record label of all time? [7:34] What people sleep on about Cash Money [11:01] Cash Money’s history of not paying artists  [16:52] Did Cash Money succeed because of Birdman and Slim or despite them?  [19:29] Biggest signing?  [20:29] The 1998 Universal-Cash Money deal  [25:31] Lil’ Wayne’s mixtape run [29:03] The benefit of partnering with Republic Records [31:49] Bidding wars for Lil Wayne, Drake, and Nicki Minaj [33:21] Connection with New Jack City  [40:56] Cash Money catalog valuation ? [43:00] Lil Wayne’s beef with Birdman  [45:48] Can Cash Money strike platinum again?  [50:44] Birdman’s love for music  [56:08] Hopes for a Cash Money reunion tour and biopic  [58:24] Who “won” the most in Cash Money’s history? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Transcription [00:00:00] Zack: You know, some of the subsequent deals that they worked out with Universal, you know, maybe some of the deals where they were able to get universal to, to tackle some of the back office stuff. I mean, it's very unsexy, but you know, that's clearly an area where they needed to improve. So, let's say,to give some cash in terms of like higher distribution fee in order to have Universal, you know, cover some of this stuff. It's kinda like a boring, dark horse candidate, but you know, I mean, you could say that, that's probably useful in terms of buttoning things up. [00:00:37] Dan Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:57] Dan: All right. Today's episode is all about the one, the only cash money records. I got the one and only Zack Greenberg here who has reported on this company many times before we ran to this company and the business moves they did in our Top 10 Revolutionary list last year. So Zack, welcome back. I'm excited for this one. [00:01:18] Zack: Always good to be here with you, Dan.  [00:01:19] Dan: Yeah. So for the folks listening, we are gonna do this in a few ways. We got a bunch of categories here that we're gonna run through, just evaluating Cash Money as a business, some of the highs, some of the lows, and just where they stand overall. But I think it'll be great to kick it off with the question that we often hear from folks is Cash Money, the greatest hip hop record label of all time? What's your point? What's your take? [00:01:44] Zack: How, man, you know, I mean, I think it's sort of like, any of these greatest ever are you talking about, overall body of work or sort of like, you know, The label at its peak. But you know, I think you gotta take it in an overall body of work, you know, type of thing. You know, it's hard to top Def Jam, I think, you know, if you were gonna go with an overall body of work, hip hop, legacy. But, you know, I don't know other than that, I mean, it's hard to say that there's anybody who you'd put above cash money, I'd say. Especially something that is, you know, really artist founded in that same way. I mean, you could talk about Bad Boy, you could talk about Rockefeller. But I think that, you know, Cash Money has staying power. You know, through Drake and Nikki and Lil Wayne and so forth, you know, in a way that, you know, I would argue that a lot of these other labels haven't, and, you know, who else can say that they've had Drake for that long? And I guess he's not there anymore. But man, that was pretty recent development and it's been a pretty great run. So, you know, to go all the way from the early nineties, you know, through basically now being relevant, stacking up all that catalog, you know, it's certainly, if not number one, it's, you know, gotta be top three, if not top two. [00:03:00] Dan: Yeah. So my answer is Def Jam as well, and we'll get to Def Jam in a minute. But, the case for Cash Money is this, and I know a few people have said it. Irv Gotti recently said it. Russell Simmons himself said that Cash Money was the greatest hip hop company that has come through. But the case for cash money, you mentioned it earlier, the fact that they did it while owning the core asset and the music and still doing that moving forward says a lot. Not something that can be said about Def Jam, many of the others that would be even in the conversation. I think even with a newer label at Quality Control, they've still done it while owning it. Well, at least up to this point from some rumors that are happening. But I think that's one case for Def Jam. But then I think of the continued run of success from everything that happened in the nineties from I guess we could start with like juvenile drop in HA in 98 and then pretty much everything from Drake's last Cash Money album, which I believe was Scorpion. So if you're looking just at like that run from everything there, that is such a strong hit rate. And I think that's the thing too that I would give them over Def Jam is the hit rate of who were the artists we signed and what was their likelihood of success and they were just able to do it. Even with the imprints, I mean, I think major record labels. So wrong with so many imprints. I just never worked out and for them to have, whether it's Young Money or even the smaller moments with the best music or with Rich Gain, there was always something there. And even though there was some conflict, and we'll get to that, I think that's the Cash Money case. The Def Jam case though, I think this is where I think of course Def Jam did end up becoming a major record label, so it's a little bit nuanced there, but I do think you have that eighties run Beasties LL Public Enemy. You got the nineties run with all those artists too. Especially looking at what Red Band met the man DMX. I feel like they had New York on Locke and then two thousands, the Rockefeller partner. Murder Inc. The video games, I mean, it's, I know the last decade hasn't been there, but it would be tough to not put Def Jam up top, but I understand if some people would consider Def Jam a major as opposed to, you know, an independent. So, I get the nuance there.  [00:05:10] Zack: right, right. And, and being, you know, fully owned by a major as opposed to Cash Money, which really has distribution agreement. You know, and you could look at, you know, I guess Def Jam was sold in chunks, but the total amount that sold for, you'd have to adjust for inflation and stuff. But I wonder how that would stack up against the current value of cash money today, which, you know, it's incredibly driven by the copyrights that they still control and, you know, definitely hundreds of millions of dollars. You know, if you look at, Lil Wayne kind of quietly sold his The Young Money, Cash Money Partnership for a hundred million bucks a couple years ago, that was before the catalog boom, got really crazy and then kind of died down again. So, you know that that's valuing what Birdman and Slim Own, you know, just on the Young Money, Cash Money side of the business, you know, at nine figures. So there's, you know, there's a lot more to the company than that, although that's, you know, that's kind of the gold line. But still, you gotta think that, you know, this is still, you know, sent a million dollar business and, you know, I'd be curious to see what a proper valuation, you know, what it would look like against the total value that Def Jam got, you know, in terms of dollars over the years. But, you know, when you think about who was hottest and what record label was hottest at any particular point, Yeah, I think probably the peak was there was that year that Def Jam was, you know, getting sold or the second half of it was getting sold. And, Lyor basically said to Jay and D M X, like, let's have two albums this year. And, you know, because the valuation is gonna be based on revenues, not earnings. And like, the more you can sell, the more we get. And so, you know, that moment at D M X at his peak, and you know, Jay, I think, I'd say at least at his commercial, you know, record Sales Peak, you know, as an individual artist, you know, that was about as hot as, as it could ever get for, for any record label, I think.  [00:07:08] Dan: That's a good point. So I guess if we were to compare Def Jams 98 and 99, like that run to Yeah. Cash Money, and I know there's a few runs you could put in there, but from an overall commercial perspective, it would have to be 0 8, 0 9 20 10, I would probably assume, because you get. Carter three, and then you get, you know, Drake's debut, Nikki's debut. I feel like it would probably be somewhere in there.  [00:07:34] Zack: Yeah, that's probably pretty close. I mean, that was a lot, you know, that was a lot of concentration within a couple year period as well. You know, and I think the other thing about Cash Money, that maybe people sleep on to some extent is, you know, just like the efficiency of the label, especially in the early days. And, you know, of course we can get into some of the issues with paying producers and so forth, but, you know, they really had a system and you know, it was going and finding artists that were bubbling up, you know, first in the New Orleans area. I mean, this is in the nineties, and, you know, and then kind of just plugging them into the machine. Right. You know, put them with stable producers in-house, get Manny Fresh on there and, you know, it was not like a, you know, high expense kinda situation. Like maybe you would've seen with Def Jam or, you know, some of the New York, LA labels, it was just like, you know, you know, probably low, low cost, high output. You know, like there's a high margin business, low overhead, you know, it's lean and mean. So I think from, in that regard, Cash Money, you know, it might have been, it might have been the best business, you know, out of any record label. Right. In terms of sort of like efficiency and profitability and stuff like that. [00:08:47] Dan: That's a great point because if you look at that vibe, I think that was the vibe for the South overall. We saw that with no Limit as well, just with in-house production sheep, that production does almost everything and the music videos aren't flashy and the fact that I think they stuck with what they do and what they work with well, and eventually I think collaborations came, but that was something that they were hesitant about as well. Just thinking about juvenile dropping 400 degrees, and I'm going back to that just because that's the first album that comes after that 1998 Universal deal, which we'll talk about soon, but, that album, I'm pretty sure the entire production value for those music videos probably costs less than one of the suits that Puffy and Mace wore in the music videos. or, yeah, Jay-Z's Sunshine Music video, which I know has been talked about for years on end, but that's what the vibe was. There were no Hype Williams music videos coming through Cash Money. Right. At least at that point. I know they came later when Wayne blew up further, but that's what they did. They stuck to what they did and it worked. It worked so well.  [00:09:55] Zack: Warren Buffet would love Cash Money.  [00:09:59] Dan: Oh yeah. He loves little cost. [00:09:59] Zack: Cash Value. Value, cash value investor. Right. Early cash money would be the Warren Buffet play. [00:10:06] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. And the thing is too, you talked about it earlier, just some of this things leading up to the big deal that they had, but even back in those early days, even before the Universal deal, Birdman and Slim, the co-founders of Cash Money Records had a history of legal issues with artists and not paying artists on time. And I actually have a list here, and it's probably an incomplete list, but artists that have had some type of dispute or issue with Cash Money records when it comes to payments. So I have Lil Wayne, Pharrell, Clipse, David Banner, Bangladesh, the producer, at least five or six artists before 1998, Wendy Day, who's not an artist, but one of the attorneys and people that helped make this deal happen. Behi Turk and Shal and Jazz Prince, of course himself. Tiger, Manny Fresh, and I'm sure I'm missing people from that list.  [00:11:01] Zack: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a long and storied list of people to have disputes with and, you know, it really is something that goes, you know, hand in hand with success.You can't ignore that history. So, you know, I think it is important to remember some of the context. You know, these guys were coming out of a completely different world. You know, and they were hustlers. They were legit hustlers in New Orleans. And, you know, in doing some reporting, you know, I verified it. I mean, you know, they were the real deal. They moved things over. They went legit. They became record moguls and Bird Man's Case became a rapper himself. And, you know, they were not people who had dealt with, you know, sets of books, right? There was not really necessarily like bookkeeping apparatus in their form of business. So, you know, I think there was an adjustment period that, you know, let's say perhaps went on for too long in terms of, you know, getting things papered up and straightened out. But, you know, I wrote a big story on them in 2019 for Forbes, where I went down to Miami and spent some time with Birdman and Slim. I talked to their lawyers a lot. I talked to Wendy Day. Spend some time in the studio with them and you know, I mean, everybody of course has, if you ask people in the Cash Money camp, they're gonna have their side of the story. If you ask whoever they're having the dispute with, you know, they're gonna have their side of the story too. And you know, obviously when there's smoke, there's fire, there's a hell of a lot of smoke when it comes to not getting paid on time. But…  [00:12:29] Dan: What would you say is the Cash Money side of the story, though? The Cash Money is this it? [00:12:33] Zack: They, you know, started out as people who had not had formal training in business, doing business with a lot of other people who had not had formal training in business, who were represented by people who had not had formal training in business. And so when you go back to some of these early documents, it was not properly papered over on either side. And so there's a lot of question over, you know, who owns what, you know, I don't know that anybody who was involved in some of those early deals really, you know, had a full grasp of sort of, you know, music copyright and publishing and, and master recordings and all that. I mean, you know, it's not like an intuitive business, you know, it's like, wait, what? There's two writes to every song. They've like, there's a publishing and a recorded music. It's separate. How does that work? So I think a lot of that was, you know, kind of like if you go back the nineties and early nineties, especially when they're getting started, you know, before the Universal deal there was just really like, you know, I would imagine a lot of handshake deals, a lot of just, you know, kind of like, let's see how, how it goes sort of stuff. A lot of, you know, here we're gonna give you a bag of cash and you do you give us this beat or you give us a verse or whatever. So, you know, it makes sense to me that it might not be papered up properly. But, you know, the fact that that's continued, you know, so far into the future, you know, that's another story. So, you know, what they did say was that, you know, after, and we can talk more about this Universal deal, but after the Universal deal started and then, you know, as it continued to evolve, you know, to where Universal got an even bigger cut of, you know, distribution fee or like an even bigger distribution fee than it had signed up for in the beginning. Universal took on more and more of sort of the back office function. And so, you know, some of the more recent stuff is, you know, a little bit more papered up properly. So that's the Cash Money side. But, you know, it's funny, I mean, when I did this story and I reached out to all these folks, you know, what I got was like a no comment, which says to me that, you know, things have been settled up and they kind of don't want to get into it anymore. Right. Or maybe there was an NDA involved. But yeah, a lot, a lot of smoke. A lot of smoke in that area, for sure.  [00:14:42] Dan: Yeah, the NDAs are key. I remember there was one of the people that I had mentioned earlier that I was going to have on the podcast of Trapital, the interview timing didn't work out, but that was one of the first things they said. If you have any questions for us about Birdman and his relationship with this artist or anything like that. No, we're not answering it. And I was just like, all right, noted. Like, and I feel like that's kind of RANE with a lot of this, but I think they and Birdman and Slim specifically in an odd way. It wasn't even just to them alone. I feel like there was this ethos of, you could almost put Suge Knight into this same category as well, but these people that were cut throat with business folks that they were doing major deals with, whether it was Suge Knight with the folks at Interscope or Birdman with Universal, I'm like, Hey, I'm gonna take what's mine. And rightfully so. They kept ownership over what worked for them and they did that, but they kept that same energy with a lot of the people that like worked with them on the other side too. And that's the piece of it that while it was frustrating to see there are actually some other sides of this too, because even the fact that I think we can get into it in a little bit, but just some of the artists, they were able to sign how they went about that. As frustrating as it was about them not paying artists, like there not every aspect of the business was and is predatory. So that's one thing that you know started to come up more and more as once you get past the salacious parts of the details and stuff, you're like, okay, no and no different than why you went down there to report them. Right. There is nuance and there are a number of things to dive into. For sure, for sure. So shifting here, one of the other things that I've thought about, we talked a little bit about what set Cash Money apart. We talked a bunch about the backstory and the bad rep, but the next thing up here is about Cash Money itself and whether or not you think that it succeeded cause of Birdman and Slim or it succeeded despite them. So thinking about this hypothetical world, if it even is possible, other folks that would've had this label in their hands and what things would've looked like, what's your take there? If we're really isolating them as business leaders. [00:16:52] Zack: I absolutely think it succeeded because of them. I mean, did they get in their own way some of the time? Absolutely. But I think, you know, anybody who can run a business that goes from like the early nineties in an informal economy, you know, in like the Louisiana area to being this global thing, to this day that is still, you know, very much at the forefront of an industry. I mean, you know, like they gotta be doing something right. You know, 30 plus years on the staying relevant and, you know, from like the early days Hot Boys to like the late nineties and, you know, remember Big Timers and Oh yeah. Still flying, all that, you know, heyday as we were alluding to, and sort of like the late s apparently, you know, 2010s, you know, of Cash Money, Young Money with Nikki and Drake and Wayne. Even coming through to, you know, to you to say Scorp. I mean, that's a really long run of relevance and you know, have that, I mean, yeah, like I said, they gotta be doing something  [00:17:53] Dan: Right. Yeah. I think it's because of them too. I will. Because as much as there are issues, and we've talked about a lot of them here, There's so much of this that would've succeeded with folks, other folks in charge, because there are a lot of record labels from the South that tried to do what Cash Money did as well. And a lot of them came and then most of them went. And the fact that we're having this conversation and not having it about them is part of it. And a lot of those record labels had talented people as well, but things just didn't carry over. They may have taken, you know, a bigger deal to get more money upfront, but then the hypothetical is, let's say it was in the hands of someone else that wouldn't have been able to push it forward, then it becomes part of the Island Def Jam conglomerate and then just kind of gets mixed and mixed. And then it becomes one of the many labels that you hear about where it's like, oh yeah, whatever happened to this one or that one. And I think it took what could have been easily, because there would've been enough meat on the bone if we just talked about Cash Money from the early nineties up until, let's say the mid two thousands. Right. And I think that's, inflection point that we can talk about in a little bit. Even that itself was a great run itself. And then you look at the second half of the career from like the mid two thousands on, that's a whole other historic record label. They have two of those under the same house. I think it's because of them and as much as it can be frustrating to hear and see and, you know, unlikely there's some critical things. But let's jump into that now though, because I think one of the questions we have here is the biggest signing that this record label has had. What do you think is the biggest signing for Cash Money? [00:19:29] Zack: Oh man. You know, I think probably easy answer is Drake, but you know, I would actually say Lil Wayne because if you don't have Wayne, I don't think the Drake thing happens, you know, and really Lil Wayne from such a young age going all the way back to the hot boys and, and you know, coming through. All those Carter albums, you know, like he's the backbone of this whole operation, you know, musically, sonically. And I think without him you don't get everything else that comes along. What do you think? [00:19:58] Dan: Yeah, it's Wayne too. That's who I have. I know that Drake is the highest commercial artist. If you were to look at all of the numbers and I think without him, the past decade would've looked very different. But we would still be having this conversation in some form. Likely if it wasn't for the past decade of Drake, it may be a bit more truncated. But we may not be having this conversation at all if it wasn't for Wayne. So I think it has to be Wayne there. What do you think is the best business move for Cash Money? [00:20:29] Zack: You know, I'm gonna go back to that first deal that they struck with Universal. I was in the early nineties at Wendy Day, who he mentioned earlier. It was sort of like a go be who helped, you know, really get them, you know, kind of set up properly with this deal. But you know, they negotiated it and they wouldn't take anything less than something that they felt was an incredible deal. And, I remember the story that Slim told me as they went in, they sat down some mid-level executive at Universal and low-balled them to straight up buy half the company. And so he and Birdman just got up to leave. Then Doug Morris walks in and he was the head of Universal at the time. Comes in with another colleague, Mel Lo winter and Slim members, you know, Doug saying, Hey, if I were you, I wouldn't sell my company. He comes in and offers him 30 million advance just for the privilege of doing business. And, what does Universal get a 7% distribution fee, which is not a lot. So kind of almost doesn't make sense from Universal's perspective unless you think about it in terms of market share. Market share is so important when you're the biggest record label because there are all these great things that happen when you have the most market share. There are all kinds of rights that are assigned based on market share. Like anytime there's, you know, a mislabeled song that gets played or gets spun,and this happens a lot, the metadata in music is a disaster. So if, you know, there are these huge pops of sort of like unresolved money and you know, what they eventually do is they get resolved down by market sharing. So if you're Universal, you know, you get the land share of that and there's a lot of other things, a lot of other places where calculations are done based on market share. You can also brag and say that you're the biggest stuff like that. So, you know, certainly it was worth it for Universal to come in and especially, you know, you think about at the time, You know, hip hop was still at a nascent stage and particularly hip hop in the South was like, not even really on the map for Universal to be able to come in and have this connection was really great for them. But, yeah, I mean, what a great deal. 30 million bucks. You don't have to give up anything. You just give, you know, just give a distribution fee and frankly, you would want your stuff to be distributed by this, you know, enormous record label anyway, so that you could expand and get bigger and better. So I think hands down, that's it. You know, that didn't stop, that there were rumors, you know, that they were even bootlegging their own music, like out the back or wherever, so that they didn't have to pay the 7%. But I, you know, I don't know. I mean, that's that talk about, you know, efficient business. But, you know, I think you go back to that deal that kind of laid the groundwork. Cause if they had given up half of their company way back then, I mean, you see what happened, Jay-Z he up, you know, a huge chunk of Rockefeller early on and. And I think was never really that incentivized, you know, to make that his main thing anymore because, you know, he'd given up such a big chunk early on. [00:23:29] Dan: Yeah, it's one of the best deals we've seen in music and one of the best deals we've seen in hip hop over the past 30 years without question. And the fact that they were able to get everything you mentioned, plus 2 million advance for three years. They kept ownership of the Masters too. And that's the thing that, as we talked about, Birdman and Slim are still collecting on that year after year. So it's up there. It's incredible. And I know that there were other labels that tried to do the same, but just couldn't. I think part of the reason is that this goes back to them focusing odd, what works for them. They had a unique sound. Universal saw this as their entryway to the south in an authentic way because back then, you know, the south was still vying for dominance. And I know that, you know, things were happening at LaFace, but this was different. The New Orleans sound was different from what was happening in Atlanta at the moment. And this gave you an entry path into that. So it was big time.  [00:24:27] Zack: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, I think, you know, also 30 million back then, I mean, probably more like 50, 60 million when you talk about inflation. But you know, I would, to our earlier point, you know, did Cash Money succeed? You know, or despite Slim and Birdman, you know, that's situation where, you know, obviously I wasn't there and there wasn't a video of it, but, you know, when you sit down with Slim and Birdman, like you can get the sense that it would be tough to negotiate with that.You know? I mean, Slim's sitting there, he's like 10 feet tall. He doesn't really talk very much, you know, and Birdman, he can get pretty loquacious, but like, uh, he, you know, when he wants to, you know, be kind of stone based, you know, I mean, he can, he can have a great poker face. So I think, you know, if you're some executive, you're going in and you're trying to get them to sell, and they have really no incentive to sell, and they're sitting. Just like, Nope, we're good. You know? I think that that leads you to offer them some crazy deal, like the one that Universal offered and so I really would chocolate up to some very good negotiating, on their part as well.  [00:25:31] Dan: Yeah. You need to be able to negotiate to pull off hip hop's Louisiana purchase. Got to at least one half. Absolutely. At least one half of it. Yeah. So, yeah. The other thing that I did have was a dark horse move and a move that doesn't get talked about as much, and as much as that move does get focused on the one dark horse that I did have is the, well, I guess too, but let me focus on this one. I would say that the mixtape strategy that they had with Lil Wayne in the mid to late two thousands, even though cash money had ownership of the music, even though this, I think that worked so well. One of the questions that we have is just how well did this company record label transition from different stages of music, whether it was from the CD era, ringtones or ringtones, to streaming it, Cash Money knocked it out of the park. With each of their albums sold, especially when they did this deal at the height of the CD era, when the music industry was struggling in the mid two thousands and they were trying to get people to buy CDs. They were just like, Hey, let's give away the music for free. And Wayne was rapping over other beats. He was in his bag more than anyone, and from dedications to Drought, all of those, just so many classics in there that I think real Hip Hop fans and folks that were following Wayne were following even more so than the next album. So all of that speaks. Lil Wayne being able to sell over a million albums in the first week when the Carter three drops in 2008, which is still a very tough time for CD sales to even happen. So that whole run and just the thought to do that. And granted, I think some of this may have been a bit more on Lil Wayne's push himself, especially because at that point he had his own young money imprint. But all of this is happening and you know, Birdman and Slim had a problem with it. They could have said no. But I think the fact that they leaned into the change that was happening, you already saw what 50 Cent did with his mixtapes in the mid two thousands. You get drama, you get the other folks in the south to be able to help make this happen. And I think it worked out well for them. [00:27:34] Zack: Yeah, absolutely. That's a really good point too. So, you know, I mean, I guess when you have a label that has been that successful, that long, Yeah, there should be a couple different options for what the best move was. Yeah, I like that as a sleeper pick.  [00:27:47] Dan: Yeah. And Lollipop is the best selling ringtone of all time too. over 5 million ringtones sold, and I mean, ringtones, were selling for like three bucks each to that point. So I mean 15 million just from folks wanting to, you know, have, you know, that little jingle on there, Motorola razors or whatever the hell people were using at that point. But, what was your dark horse? Oh  [00:28:10] Zack: Oh man, that's a really good question. I don't know. I mean, I guess it was just so clearly the Universal deal to me. But, you know, and Drake wouldn't really be considered a dark horse candidate, I guess you could say. As time went on, you know, some of the subsequent deals that they worked out with Universal, you know, maybe some of the deals where they were able to get Universal to tackle some of the back office stuff. I mean, it's very unsexy, but you know, that's clearly an area where they needed to improve. So, let's say,to give us some cash in terms of like higher distribution fee in order to have Universal, you know, cover some of this stuff. It's kinda like a boring, dark horse candidate. But you know, I mean, you could say that that's probably useful in terms of buttoning things up and you know, there was a lot of smoke, like we said, but you know, nothing ever, like the house never burned down. So, you know, maybe, maybe those kinds of arrangements really kind of help prevent something like that from happening. [00:29:03] Dan: And I think that back office piece also just makes me think about the broader partnership and the expertise that they were able to lean on. And a question that I actually didn't explore, but now I'm thinking more about it, is how different do we think that the Universal partnership would've been, let's say Cash Money had partnered with another label under the Universal umbrella? Because obviously part of this is very close. There was Universal Republic at the time and they've been hand in hand working with Monte and Avery Lipman ever since, and they are two of the most highly regarded executives in the game that have now being, year after year after year, the label with the number one market share. And part of that is because of Cash Money itself, but it's also because of all the other stars, even outside of that label, they have been able to bring it to, as opposed to many of the other labels in the Universal Umbrella or the umbrella of Universal Music group labels that have not had that consistency. So I also think there's a dynamic there where, let's say there's another world where cash money was under capital or cash money was under some of these other labels that have struggled to stay relevant, what that would've looked like. [00:30:10] Zack: Yeah. I mean, I think if you, if you kind of need to go back to Def Jam, you know, some of the back and forth that Def Jam has had over the years. It gives you an idea of, or even as like a top label, the kind of trials and tribulations you might go under. But you know, when you're coming in, you know, going directly to Doug Morris, you know that that gives you a lot of leeway, a lot of leverage. You got that line straight to the top. And, you know, even with somebody like Jay, it took him, it wasn't until, you know, I don't know, when he was dealing directly with Doug Morris, when Doug, this is, I think around the time of Blueprint three, and Jay had that line. I gave Doug a grip. I lost the flip for five stacks. He could have the album. They bet 10 million on a coin flip and like, you know, one way or the other. So, you know, but Birdman we're doing that like, you know, 15 years earlier, having that kind of direct line. So, you know, again, I think going straight to serve them incredibly well. [00:31:09] Dan: Definitely. Yeah. Another, another piece too. So, two other, like sonically three other dark horse candidates, I'll bring 'em, but they're all under the same thing, was Bird Man's ability to win bid wars and win huge bidding wars, I think is an underrated piece of this record label. So I'll bring up three of them. First one, go back to 2004. So this is around the time thatCarter came out and Wayne was considering to leave Def Jam, and this was around the time that Jay-Z had just became president and Jay-Z pushed hard, make that happen and couldn't leave cash money for Def Jam. That was the thought, right? [00:31:43] Zack: Yeah. Yeah. Carter boys, and there were all these, you know, kind of … [00:31:49] Dan: Yeah, they're trying to push the whole Carter board thing and yeah, Birdman was like, all right, come through. I'll give you your own imprint and you are the president of that imprint and let's continue this thing. And that obviously sets up young money and then the next 15 years after that, right. So he does that. Yeah. And I think that's huge because then that sets the stage for the bidding war for Drake, because Drake drops so far gone beginning of 2009. And this is like, you know, everyone is trying to, it's like when Yaba sweepstakes we're seeing in the NBA right now everyone wants this person and everyone is going after them. I mean, truly Greenwall Lior, everyone was trying to get 'em. And it was that connection that Drake had with Cortez, Brian and Jay Prince Ja Prince and that whole crew that I think eventually helped keep him on the cash money roster there. So that was a huge one. And I think we saw something similar with Nicki Minaj as well. A couple months later. Everyone wanted her to beat me up. Scotty the mixtapes were hot and he and Wayne, Wayne was like, no, I want her to be the, the first lady of the label. That was the whole thing in the two thousands, right? Everyone wanted to have the first lady. You saw it in the nineties, right? But like everyone wanted to declare and elevate this person and rightfully so, but like that's who we had. And then we obviously saw the beginning and the middle part of that next decade. Just go on one of the all-time runs. So Bird Band's ability to win against the biggest people in the industry for record label that his men, you know, his brother own is really impressive for sure. [00:33:21] Zack: And you know, it served Lil Wayne well in the end because Young Money became something that he was able to sell for, you know, about a hundred million dollars for his stake later on too. So, you know, keeping that ownership as opposed to just chasing the biggest advance time and time again we see in hip hop. You know, it's so important. But, you know, I was thinking the other night, it is funny, like everyone has watched New Jack City, and it had been ages, ages, ages. And if they reminded me, I mean, how much of the whole Young Money, Cash Money situation is modeled after elements of that movie. I mean, even just like, The name Cash Money or C M B Y M C M B. The shirts, like the shirts, are incredibly similar that, you know, a lot of the lines, even the Carter, you know, the albums are named. I mean, the Carter was the building, you know, where Wesley Stein's character was like running this whole operation you know, that's kind of like another interesting element to the whole, you know, to the whole narrative. Like, you know, these guys coming out of Louisiana, you know, had their eyes up on this very New York kind of, you know, almost role model, for a business. And, you know, they had been hustlers. They were kind of modeling themselves after these, you know, fictional hustlers in New York and, you know, and then in a way out hustled sort of like the New York record label establishment. So I thought that was kind of an interesting, you know, little side bit of color to the whole story. And, like a bit of irony as well, you know, when you talk about, South versus, New York kind of situation too.  [00:34:59] Dan: And I think that also speaks to some of that mentality too, because here you have Birdman that was getting inspiration from a black crime movie. And I think a lot of the ways of him doing business are very much central on, okay, I wanna support and uplift the black community, do what I can here and grid. And I think, you know, part of how he was able to do that has, you know, been quite controversial just with certain artists he's had on. Yeah. But still, I think that ethos stems back from ownership in trying to keep things in-house as much as you can. And it took them a lot to even partner with other artists from other parts of the countries and stuff like that, that I think you saw with Dino Brown and how he was in that movie and how he carried versus I think someone like Jay-Z who record label Rockefeller named after one of the great white business magnets that you had in this country. Right. And so many Jay-Z bars, whether it's Black Axl, Rose Black, Kirk Cobain called me this. I feel like, you know, people always get on Kanye for some of that. Like always trying to like be okay. I'm, you know, the black version of whatever X person. But I think Jay-Z, you know, also had a lot of that too. And then I think also looking at his business mentality, a lot of his success came from his huge and lucrative partnerships with established companies in this space. So the inspiration I think also became kind of telltale sign for the type of businesses these types of folks ended up creating too.  [00:36:23] Zack: Yeah. And you know, I mean, you know, brown was a really ruthless character. And you know, I think there's like the money and the success that's glamorized. But you know, it's a gritty movie. I mean it seems like he is not a likable guy in the end. You know, without giving too much of the plot, I'm sure everybody's seen it, but like, I was like, wow. Yeah. I don't know if I'd be wanting to model myself after this dude. You know, he's pretty brutal. But, you know, even on the, you know, kind of the lighter side, there's a scene where he's like giving out turkeys at Thanksgiving. Yep. And you know, the Cash Money guys always give out turkeys in New Orleans at Thanksgiving and I wonder if they got that directly from the movie. You know, cuz so many of you know, from the Carter. You know, the c n b kind of, kind of like whole, you know, ethos there. I wonder how much of that they just pulled directly from the movie, so… [00:37:16] Dan: Oh, yeah. I could definitely see that mentality too. And speaking about it, you know, full circle. I could also see Birdman having a bit of that cancel that bitch mentality too, in short situations. [00:37:28] Zack: Right, right, right, right. Exactly. So, yeah, I mean, and they won't talk about that part of it, the interviews maybe, but you kind of get the sense of like that's where the negotiation and the cash element of the Cash Money comes in. Yeah.  [00:37:42] Dan: The aita literally held people over the balcony of a building to get what he wanted. Right. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of that came through to fruition. But next category up here. So missed opportunity. Is there anything that you look at that you're like, man, obviously it's an overall successful company. Is there anything you look back on about what if they did this differently or what if they did that differently? [00:38:02] Zack: I think the number one thing I wonder is what if they had sold the whole thing, you know? A year and a half ago, could they have gotten just an insane multiple? I mean, you know, you're seeing like Springsteen staying and all these guys getting hundreds of millions of dollars for their catalogs. So, you know, I get it. And there's, you know, catalogs, hip hop catalogs are valued differently from rock catalogs. And also one of the benefits of rock catalogs is they're usually, you know, written and owned by, you know, all the rights are with the band. There's not like a million different producers coming in. It's not as complicated. So like, you know, they can sell the whole thing, you know, a hundred percent of the rights and you don't have to, you know, it's not like you're just buying like, you know, I don't know, 30% of this and 50% of that and whatever. It's, it's not this complex web, let's say there may not be as many things that haven't been papered over as there were with Cash Money, but man, you know, there were some pretty insane, numbers flying around and I really wonder if, you know, if they had, been applying some of, you know, 20 or 30 x multiple. To whatever they were pulling in, you know, which is, you know, they can just sit there and make, you know, tens of millions of dollars a year, just off of this catalog. I mean, so what would the market have been if they had went and sold the whole thing at the peak of the catalog? Boom. That's what I really wonder.  [00:39:21] Dan: That's a good one. So I guess some high level back of the envelope math on that. So let's say that the peak of the catalog boom was like December, 2020 maybe, and then like, you know, into the spring of 2021 and we definitely saw some 30 x multiples there and at least the last public number I saw, and I think you had this in one of your latest articles as well, but that Cash Money's Masters generated around 30 million annually, or 20 to 30 million. Was that the number? [00:39:49] Zack: Yeah, I think it was at least 30. And you know, cuz Bird, like most of hey Birdman, you know, has been making like close to 20 million a year, for a while, give or take. And you know, most of that is just, you know, the catalog. So yeah, I mean that's just his cut. And then if you figure you double that for Slim, yeah, probably, you know, it was around 30, 35, something like that, so, you know. Yeah. I mean, are they gonna get a 30 x value even at the peak? I don't think so because just hip hop wasn't getting that kind of valuation. I don't really understand that because everybody's like, oh, rock and roll music gonna stand the test of time. It's like if you ask the average 20 year old who Bruce Springsteen is, they're not gonna know. I mean, so I would argue that hip hop is actually gonna be more valuable down the line. But just the valuation, you know, that's not what people have been paying for. So even at the peak, you know, I, I don't know that I saw any valuations anywhere near 30. I think Kanye was shopping his catalog at one point and wanted a 30 x multiple, but, you know, didn't get any bites. So I think it comes down to like, yeah, what kind of multiple could they actually have gotten?  [00:40:56] Dan: Yeah, because even more recently, so yeah, we're recording this now. January, 2023, there was a report that just came out about Dr. Dre selling a collection of music assets that I believe are worth different multiples. But the number that I heard from that was, They generate around 10 million per year and that he wanted 250 and he's getting just over 200 million or somewhere between that. So that's around a 20 x multiple for a deal. That sounds like it was still coming underway in 2022. So if you were to put that multiple on, let's call it 35 million for maybe what Birdman and Slim have collectively, then that is you're talking $700 million. So that's a pretty sizable number, not a billion. But maybe if there are some concerns about, maybe there's a bit more of a split of who owns what. We didn't even talk about publishing right now, but there may be a split too, especially if everything was captured. and even thinking about quality control, for instance, and I think they got around 400 million, 300, got 400 million, but this was last year. So I would assume that 500 to 750 sounds, if I heard a number there, I would be like, sounds about right. If I heard a number lower than that or higher than that, I would probably be surprised one way or the other.  [00:42:15] Zack: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think that makes sense. And it's not just one artist, you know, obviously it's a whole bunch of artists and a bunch of pieces of different artists. But I think another thing, and this is maybe one of the reasons why the hip-hop valuations are lower, is like when you have all those producers, it might not be as easy to get, you know, to get clearances for using stuff in commercials and that sort of thing. Whereas if you buy a hundred percent of the rights, there's no question. Right. And so I'm not even sure if somebody owned 1% of, of something, whatever. Like I don't think they would have some, like, veto right. About the song being played in a commercial. But, you know, when you start to have so many different parties owning bigger stakes, a particular song, it can get a little convoluted and, you know, I do wonder if that's a big part of it as well. [00:43:00] Dan: Yeah, no, that's a good point. Yeah. Cuz I think sampling also is a huge piece of that as well. The missed opportunity for me, this is a bit more of a specific one from like a timeframe, not like a specific move, but Birdman and Little Wayne not settling and squashing the beef, the issues that they had in the mid 2010s. I think we lost out on Wayne. I know Wayne was in prison during part of this, but we lost out on his momentum. We lost out on a lot there because I feel like a lot happened from the Carter four coming out in 2011 to the Carter five coming out in 2018. I believe. There was so much back and forth. There was so much drama. You know, Drake was going on his all time run at that point. Nicki was doing the same. And the fact that the signature biggest artist is literally tweeting out, I want off this label, but it's not that easy. Or sending these messages out in the middle of Wayne and Drake having their tours and him still being on albums and trying to figure out how to drop things. I think it was obviously a great decade in run, but I think it could have been even greater if they were able to solve some of that stuff and figure it out.  [00:44:11] Zack: Yeah, a hundred percent, you know, that that was like, it's a long time to be going between, proper albums, you know, so, and I think that was a really interesting time in the music business. And, I mean, the music business changed completely right from, from 2011 to 2018 from being, you know, oh, this new streaming thing is gonna be important to like, you know, it is the entire business basically. So, you know, and I think that an artist like Wayne, you know, as somebody whose music translates really well to, you know, to that medium. And, you know, as we know, hip hop is a monster on streaming and, you know, tends to do really well. So I would've been really curious to see if he had been able to continue that momentum, you know, just how much bigger he could have gotten in that period of time too. [00:44:57] Dan: Yeah, definitely. The next piece we add too, I think we talked a little bit about this just in terms of how did the label handle the transitions? And I think you just mentioned it there. They were able to do a lot of it well, especially the mixed day piece and the ring toes. And then I think a lot of it laid the work for streaming and Drake is streaming, did a lot of that, the Cash Money labels. So I think that worked. But this next question is interesting though, because it's been around three years, I think it's been at least three years since you did your deep story, the Forbes cover story on Cash Money, where you went down and interviewed them. And then I know it's been four years since I had written a piece around the time that Drake had completed Scorpion and we knew that it was going to be, or at least I thought the future may be bleak. And I think the question that you pose into the piece was, can they strike platinum again? It's been three years since now. What do you think?  [00:45:48] Zack: You know, I don't know. I mean, the rules for platinum, like what constitutes platinum have changed so much that, you know, all it takes is, you get, you know, one hot signing and they do really well on streaming and suddenly you have a platinum whatever. And, you know, it's like, okay, I think that, you know, Drake is gone. Wayne is gone. When I went down there, they were really big on blue face and Jack Reese, you know, I don't know what either of them are turning out to be like, I mean anywhere near Drake, Nikki, Wayne, et cetera. Jack Reese is the king of R&B though, right? That was the whole thing too. So what I'm gonna go with, no, I don't think they will begin Drake Platinum. But I would caveat that by saying it doesn't matter because they can just sit back, and collect these checks. And that's gonna happen. That'll happen even if, you know Drake and Nikki and Wayne retire. I mean, their back catalog stuff is still gonna be a gold mine. And you know, when I was down there, what they said was that they're forever in business with Drake. But they wouldn't get more specific. And so what I took that to mean was, you know, at the time, you know, he was kind of an ex extra kidding himself. But even once he's gone, they're still sitting on these, you know, their share of the copyrights that will be, you know, Drake is a streaming king and they have a big piece of that. So, yeah. Do I think they'll strike platinum again? You know, probably not, but I don't really think it matters. I don't think so, what are they gonna do? Like what are they gonna do? They're gonna sit back and collect those checks. Yeah.  [00:47:26] Dan: Yeah. I came to the same spot as well. I guess platinum in the purest sense of having a chart hit. Sure. There could be a legacy hit that gets, you know, some viral thing on TikTok and then that becomes a hit. Like, I don't know, I don't know if I like slow motion singles, like juvenile when platinum, but I feel like that's the type of song I could see go viral and some TikTok thing and then bring new, that's one of my cat favorite Cash Money songs. And I feel like I could see something like that happen. But I feel like you were kind of posing it more so in the moment of looking at these runs of like late two thousand, late nineties, early two thousands, that Cash Money is like a platinum moment or mid two thousands. Wayne's mixtape ran late two thousands, early 2010 or to mid 2010s. Young Money rises to the highest of heights. I don't think we'll see that moment again. And it's crazy cuz I think there’s times where maybe things could have happened. You had the rich gang moment where he looked like he was so close with Young Thug. And I feel like especially in 2014, people expected Thug to go on to that superstar level and still be very successful. But I think that the stock for Thug at that moment was a little higher than it may be actually reached. And I think some of Thug's proteges kind of reached the heights that we thought Thug would've reached at one point, just in terms of a commercial success perspective. But it just never quite happened. But again, they own this. It's not like they missed some opportunity. This is something that is literally generating tens of millions per year and that's not changing anytime soon. [00:48:54] Zack: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, it's funny, they have, I guess just to sort of like switch gears a tiny bit, but you know, last moment when they said when Birdman and some said they're forever in business with Drake. It wasn't in Miami, but I met with them for some follow-up questions in New York. and they have, like within Universal's building in Midtown, they have a Cash Money conference route. Like there are actually these, I mean I don't think it's diamond play, but the door handles are giant dollar signs, like the Cash Money logo. And, and it looks like they're diamonds in the dollar sign and whatever it is. But, you open up the thing and you go in and there's like all these plaques on the wall and it's just a conference room that's always there. And it's sort of like their designated conference room when they, when they cut the tat. And I remember, yeah, we sat down in that conference room and I really tried to press them on the Drake thing. And I mean, if you dig up the Forbes story, we did a video too. And there's this great kind of tense moment where I'm like really kind of pushing them about it and they're like, we're forever in this with Drake. And like, that's it. And it's clear that's all you're gonna get out of that. But, you know, so, in terms of striking platinum again, yeah, I mean, I could almost envision a scenario where Drake like does the Super Bowl and he plays some, you know, catalog hit that never went platinum. And just purely by the exposure of people hearing it be like, oh man, listen that again, it just suddenly goes platinum again. You know, or for the first time. But yeah, short of that, I know I'm gonna agree with you. I think probably not again, but that it doesn't matter anyway.  [00:50:32] Dan: Yeah. So we have a couple questions left here. This one, and I think it's maybe similar to the fourth you're bringing up, but if you were in Birdman and Slim's shoes today, is there anything that you would be doing differently? [00:50:44] Zack: You know what, I think I go back to that question of like, would you sell the whole thing? Especially if the prospects are kind of dimming a bit and, you know, it's like, I don't know though. I mean, you know, it's like if you're getting up there in age, like would you sell you, you know, you got this great house that you bought, you know, you got this great penthouse apartment in New York that you bought. For like, you know, a hundred thousand dollars in, you know, 1982. And, you could probably get, you know, I don't know, 10 million bucks for it. And then you could just like rent and do whatever you want and you know, for the rest of your life. But like, you don't really need the money. Like, you're fine as it is, like you sell it. Like what would you even do with the money that you got? You really love living in that apartment. Maybe you just stay. And I think that's kind of the point. Like, just remember being in the studio with Birdman and he doesn't need to be doing this. Like, he doesn't need to be running around with Jack in Miami trying to make him the, the king of r&b or whatever. But he truly loves it. Like you, you can tell that he's passionate about it and. After the interview was over, and I wish I had this on tape, but we're just like a dozen of us sitting there in the room. And, Birdman, he goes, Zack, why do people think I'm scary? And I remember he said, he was like, really pointy moment. He's like, I'm respectful. You know, I'm not a clown. I don't turn tables over. I don't scream and yell. I'm respectful. Why are people so afraid of me? And I thought for a minute and I said, you know, as like, look man, like, to be honest, I think the base tattoos really are kind of like off putting some people who are not used to that sort of thing. And, he was like, yeah, I've been thinking of getting them removed. You know, I think it'd be better for business. So, you know, it's like there's still this element of, you know, even though he's made it and he's got everything he wants, there's still this part of him that came from a different world. That, you know, he's kind of like still stuck between two worlds, between the world that he came up in and the world that he can afford to live in. And, I think, you know, where he feels at his best is in the studio. So why would you sell that whole thing? Why would you, you know, I mean, why would you kind of give that up? And I think Slim likes it too. And you know, they have this really funny relationship and, you know, Birdman's in the studio and Slim does live the business. And that's kind of the breakdown of it. And I just remember, like after this interview, you know, after leaving the studio, I went and we were all supposed to have dinner together and I went off with Slim and we waited for like a half an hour in the parking lot for Birdman. And he just never showed up. And then we went to dinner and he just never showed up. And it's cuz he wanted to stay in.He just stayed in the studio all freaking night. Cuz that's what he really loves. So, yeah, I guess it's a long way of saying, what would I do if I were them? I mean, you know, probably like the financial advisor advice would be. Sell this big thing and then you're totally set for the rest of your life. But you know, if it's throwing off enough, more than enough money, tens of millions of dollars every year for you to live on, what's the point? You know, why not just do that and do what makes you happy? [00:53:59] Dan: I think that's a piece that often gets for guys and understands what some of this stuff is, that some people really just love the craft. It makes me think too about someone like Martin Scorsese or Steven Spielberg and these directors that are now in their seventies or eighties, they're not doing these movies to try to make more money. Well, granted, yes, I think they're bought into the financial success. They want fair terms. But this is what they enjoy doing. They've been doing it since they were kids and they wanna just find outlets to be able to do this in the best way possible. And I think the same could be said about Birdman of wanting to be in the studio and just wanting to have that energy. And if you sell that, then what do you do? I think especially for someone like him that's stuck to the thing that he does well. And you know, like he isn't out here like Jay-Z trying to be mogul in the sense of having different things. I mean, there's a mogul aspect in terms of media ownership, but not in the sense of like, yes, I own this, I do this, I do that as well. Sure. Maybe there's some smaller things that are in the, you know, new Orleans or, or the Louisiana area, but not in that same way. So I do think that speaks a lot to that.  [00:55:06] Zack: Yeah. And I think they have dabbled in other stuff for sure. And you know, real estate, and I think there was some period of time where they had like some oil rigs or something like that.They had a vodka called G T V. They were trying to really build up Y M C M B as like, as a clothing line type of thing, rather than just merch. But, you know, none of that really kind of like ever went viral in the way that any of their artists did. So, you know, and maybe because it was that they just didn't have the passion for it that they have for music. Like that example of Birdman. So, you know, Jay clearly has the passion for the business. He clearly has the passion for, you know, doing the champagne thing or, you know, doing the VC thing. And you can tell cuz he's out there doing it. He’s doing it cuz he loves it, and he makes money. But, I think it's hard for something to do well if you aren't truly passionate. Because consumers can kind of see through that. And also, you're not gonna go the extra mile for something if you don't truly care about it either. Definitely.  [00:56:08] Dan: Definitely. And mine is a little different. And this may be more so from a selfish perspective of what I would do, but that's part of the question, right? Yeah. As someone that is such a fan of the vibe and the culture that they were able to create, I want to be able to relive that in different ways. I wish that Birdman and the team could patch things up and there could be a true Cash Money reunion tour that goes across the country. I know there's been different things here or there, but the same way that Didat did the Big Bad Boy Arena tour in 2016. I wanna be able to see that. I'd love to be able to do that. And I also wanna see a music biopic and the same style and the same budget and energy of Straight Outta Compton. I would love to see that about the Cash Money story. And to be honest, I feel like, I know there's a lot of energy around these biopics, but like I may be biased because it's the genre I like since Street Outta Compton came out, I just haven't seen one that's, you know, as good as that. And sometimes it's a bit frustrating when I see movies like Bohemian Rhapsody or Elvis, which I think they're fine, but I don't think they're as good as Straight Outta Compton and they're getting all these awards and stuff. And it makes me think that okay, I don't know whether it'll get Gary Gray back again or someone that can, you know, tell this story in a great way. I would love to see that unfold, but I think you would also need buy-in from the artist because obviously the fact that the relationships are straight can make some of this tough. And the willingness to tell the story in an honest way and the fact that there's kind of two sides to everything. Is Birdman gonna be bought in if he and his brother are being shown as, you know, like predatory loan sharks, like screwed people over. Right. Are the artists gonna be happy if it's making it seem too favorable to Birdman? So I know there's some contentions with how the story is told, but it's still something I would love to see done in the right way.  [00:57:56] Zack: Yeah. Not to mention, how would you clear all the music, you know, how would you handle that? Although maybe now it's a little bit more streamlined, but you know, again, you know, a lot of different cooks in the kitchen there, so you never know. But yeah, no, I'd love to see that too. Oh man. That people asked.  [00:58:13] Dan: All right, so last question here. Who won? If there's one person, artist, executive from Cash Money, who would you say is the winner of everything that's happened over the past 30 plus years? [00:58:24] Zack: You know, I think there's a lot of winners, a lot of losers, A lot of you get kind of a little bit of both, but I'm gonna go with Slim, you know, I mean, Slim has been in the background, like Birdman has gotten some more of the glory, but he is also taken a lot more of the heat. I mean, he has taken basically all the heat, I think, and Slim has managed to just sit back, run this like incredible business and make just a boatload of money without taking some of the heat that his brother did. So, yeah, I'm gonna go with Slim. How about that? I wanna know, what do you think? I like that answer.  [00:58:57] Dan: I'm glad you said that. Yeah, because I think it would be both, but Birdman is my answer. The bidding wars that he won over the years. The ruthlessness of just getting the deals done, staying true to what he knows. There's a lot that I disagree with, and there's a lot that I wish that he had done differently and a bunch of missed opportunities, but they did something that we have not seen done in hip hop before, and we may not see that again, just because of how things have changed and evolved over time. So it really is a credit to that happening. So yeah, I love the Slim take too, because the fact that he reaps the rewards without, you know, any of the backlash. Like I've never seen anyone tweet or get frustrated about like, oh yeah, you know, Slim's really screwing these artists over. Slim's really doing this. You know what I mean? It's always a photoable Birdman, you know, like, right. But yeah. Oh man. Such a fascinating label. Yeah. Before we close things out, any final thoughts on Cash Money records?  [00:59:57] Zack: Well, you know, I wouldn't say also, About Slim. You know, there's this, somebody had a great quote. It was some writer and they, it was some famous writer, and they said, a writer's fame is the best fame because you are not famous enough to get bothered on the street, but you are famous enough to get a good table at a good restaurant. And, you know, in a way, I think that's, that's kind of what Slim was able to do. Like, he could get, you know, what, whatever he wants, he could have, but nobody's kind of bothering him about it. And I think that's how he wants it. And, you know, Birdman, whatever he wants, he could have sort of, but what he can't do is walk outside without, you know, everybody harassing him, you know? So, you know, I think that to some extent he's more interested in the spotlight. You get the good with the bad. But you know, I think that spotlight it's important, like being able to turn it off is a really great luxury to have to turn it on and off. And, you know, once it's on all the time, you'll never be able to turn it off. So I am going to Slim for that. Yeah, for sure. [01:01:02] Dan: And Slim also did get memes made out of him from telling Charlamagne off of the Breakfast Club, either or that too. [01:01:08] Zack: Yeah. Or the Birdman hand rub.  [01:01:11] Dan: Is that the Birdman hand rub? Yeah, the No clap though. I mean, I need to put on that though, but man, what a moment. Yeah, yeah. All right. Toasted Cash Money. And this is a fun one. What a fascinating case study. And yeah, we're gonna tell the stories that don't get told elsewhere. So Zack, thank you for coming through and thanks again for this Young Money, Cash Money t-shirt for those folks watching the videos. You can see this is the one last time I was in New York, Zack came through, he was like, I got something for you. And yeah, I had to make it happen.  [01:01:40] Zack: That's right. I should have worn mine today. But, it was in the laundry. You know. It was in the laundry. .  [01:01:45] Dan: Oh, yeah, definitely. All right, man. Thank you. [01:01:48] Zack: Appreciate it. All right. Have a good one. Thanks again. Yep.  [01:01:51] Dan: All right, cool. [01:01:53] Dan Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend and post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 26 Jan 2023 09:00:00 -0000 How Cash Money Records Pulled Off Hip-Hop’s Louisiana Purchase (with Zack O’Malley Greenburg) full Dan Runcie Everybody’s got something to say about Cash Money Records and the brothers who co-founded the label —Bryan “Birdman” Williams and Ronald “Slim” Williams. To paint the full Cash Money full picture, good and bad, I brought on Zack O’Malley Greenberg who has interviewed the brothers at-length while working at Forbes. Cash Money has one of the deepest catalogs in the game with several classics. And unlike some other upstart hip-hop labels, Birdman and Slim maintained control as they rose up. Their 1998 distribution deal with Universal is hip-hop’s Louisiana Purchase. But we can’t ignore Cash Money’s lows either. There is a long, long list of artists who claim they were not compensated fairly by Birdman and Slim. Zack and I go through 30 years of Cash Money as a business, its competitive advantage, and what comes next now that Drake and Wayne are gone from the label.  [1:44] Is Cash Money the greatest hip-hop record label of all time? [7:34] What people sleep on about Cash Money [11:01] Cash Money’s history of not paying artists  [16:52] Did Cash Money succeed because of Birdman and Slim or despite them?  [19:29] Biggest signing?  [20:29] The 1998 Universal-Cash Money deal  [25:31] Lil’ Wayne’s mixtape run [29:03] The benefit of partnering with Republic Records [31:49] Bidding wars for Lil Wayne, Drake, and Nicki Minaj [33:21] Connection with New Jack City  [40:56] Cash Money catalog valuation ? [43:00] Lil Wayne’s beef with Birdman  [45:48] Can Cash Money strike platinum again?  [50:44] Birdman’s love for music  [56:08] Hopes for a Cash Money reunion tour and biopic  [58:24] Who “won” the most in Cash Money’s history? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. Transcription [00:00:00] Zack: You know, some of the subsequent deals that they worked out with Universal, you know, maybe some of the deals where they were able to get universal to, to tackle some of the back office stuff. I mean, it's very unsexy, but you know, that's clearly an area where they needed to improve. So, let's say,to give some cash in terms of like higher distribution fee in order to have Universal, you know, cover some of this stuff. It's kinda like a boring, dark horse candidate, but you know, I mean, you could say that, that's probably useful in terms of buttoning things up. [00:00:37] Dan Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:57] Dan: All right. Today's episode is all about the one, the only cash money records. I got the one and only Zack Greenberg here who has reported on this company many times before we ran to this company and the business moves they did in our Top 10 Revolutionary list last year. So Zack, welcome back. I'm excited for this one. [00:01:18] Zack: Always good to be here with you, Dan.  [00:01:19] Dan: Yeah. So for the folks listening, we are gonna do this in a few ways. We got a bunch of categories here that we're gonna run through, just evaluating Cash Money as a business, some of the highs, some of the lows, and just where they stand overall. But I think it'll be great to kick it off with the question that we often hear from folks is Cash Money, the greatest hip hop record label of all time? What's your point? What's your take? [00:01:44] Zack: How, man, you know, I mean, I think it's sort of like, any of these greatest ever are you talking about, overall body of work or sort of like, you know, The label at its peak. But you know, I think you gotta take it in an overall body of work, you know, type of thing. You know, it's hard to top Def Jam, I think, you know, if you were gonna go with an overall body of work, hip hop, legacy. But, you know, I don't know other than that, I mean, it's hard to say that there's anybody who you'd put above cash money, I'd say. Especially something that is, you know, really artist founded in that same way. I mean, you could talk about Bad Boy, you could talk about Rockefeller. But I think that, you know, Cash Money has staying power. You know, through Drake and Nikki and Lil Wayne and so forth, you know, in a way that, you know, I would argue that a lot of these other labels haven't, and, you know, who else can say that they've had Drake for that long? And I guess he's not there anymore. But man, that was pretty recent development and it's been a pretty great run. So, you know, to go all the way from the early nineties, you know, through basically now being relevant, stacking up all that catalog, you know, it's certainly, if not number one, it's, you know, gotta be top three, if not top two. [00:03:00] Dan: Yeah. So my answer is Def Jam as well, and we'll get to Def Jam in a minute. But, the case for Cash Money is this, and I know a few people have said it. Irv Gotti recently said it. Russell Simmons himself said that Cash Money was the greatest hip hop company that has come through. But the case for cash money, you mentioned it earlier, the fact that they did it while owning the core asset and the music and still doing that moving forward says a lot. Not something that can be said about Def Jam, many of the others that would be even in the conversation. I think even with a newer label at Quality Control, they've still done it while owning it. Well, at least up to this point from some rumors that are happening. But I think that's one case for Def Jam. But then I think of the continued run of success from everything that happened in the nineties from I guess we could start with like juvenile drop in HA in 98 and then pretty much everything from Drake's last Cash Money album, which I believe was Scorpion. So if you're looking just at like that run from everything there, that is such a strong hit rate. And I think that's the thing too that I would give them over Def Jam is the hit rate of who were the artists we signed and what was their likelihood of success and they were just able to do it. Even with the imprints, I mean, I think major record labels. So wrong with so many imprints. I just never worked out and for them to have, whether it's Young Money or even the smaller moments with the best music or with Rich Gain, there was always something there. And even though there was some conflict, and we'll get to that, I think that's the Cash Money case. The Def Jam case though, I think this is where I think of course Def Jam did end up becoming a major record label, so it's a little bit nuanced there, but I do think you have that eighties run Beasties LL Public Enemy. You got the nineties run with all those artists too. Especially looking at what Red Band met the man DMX. I feel like they had New York on Locke and then two thousands, the Rockefeller partner. Murder Inc. The video games, I mean, it's, I know the last decade hasn't been there, but it would be tough to not put Def Jam up top, but I understand if some people would consider Def Jam a major as opposed to, you know, an independent. So, I get the nuance there.  [00:05:10] Zack: right, right. And, and being, you know, fully owned by a major as opposed to Cash Money, which really has distribution agreement. You know, and you could look at, you know, I guess Def Jam was sold in chunks, but the total amount that sold for, you'd have to adjust for inflation and stuff. But I wonder how that would stack up against the current value of cash money today, which, you know, it's incredibly driven by the copyrights that they still control and, you know, definitely hundreds of millions of dollars. You know, if you look at, Lil Wayne kind of quietly sold his The Young Money, Cash Money Partnership for a hundred million bucks a couple years ago, that was before the catalog boom, got really crazy and then kind of died down again. So, you know that that's valuing what Birdman and Slim Own, you know, just on the Young Money, Cash Money side of the business, you know, at nine figures. So there's, you know, there's a lot more to the company than that, although that's, you know, that's kind of the gold line. But still, you gotta think that, you know, this is still, you know, sent a million dollar business and, you know, I'd be curious to see what a proper valuation, you know, what it would look like against the total value that Def Jam got, you know, in terms of dollars over the years. But, you know, when you think about who was hottest and what record label was hottest at any particular point, Yeah, I think probably the peak was there was that year that Def Jam was, you know, getting sold or the second half of it was getting sold. And, Lyor basically said to Jay and D M X, like, let's have two albums this year. And, you know, because the valuation is gonna be based on revenues, not earnings. And like, the more you can sell, the more we get. And so, you know, that moment at D M X at his peak, and you know, Jay, I think, I'd say at least at his commercial, you know, record Sales Peak, you know, as an individual artist, you know, that was about as hot as, as it could ever get for, for any record label, I think.  [00:07:08] Dan: That's a good point. So I guess if we were to compare Def Jams 98 and 99, like that run to Yeah. Cash Money, and I know there's a few runs you could put in there, but from an overall commercial perspective, it would have to be 0 8, 0 9 20 10, I would probably assume, because you get. Carter three, and then you get, you know, Drake's debut, Nikki's debut. I feel like it would probably be somewhere in there.  [00:07:34] Zack: Yeah, that's probably pretty close. I mean, that was a lot, you know, that was a lot of concentration within a couple year period as well. You know, and I think the other thing about Cash Money, that maybe people sleep on to some extent is, you know, just like the efficiency of the label, especially in the early days. And, you know, of course we can get into some of the issues with paying producers and so forth, but, you know, they really had a system and you know, it was going and finding artists that were bubbling up, you know, first in the New Orleans area. I mean, this is in the nineties, and, you know, and then kind of just plugging them into the machine. Right. You know, put them with stable producers in-house, get Manny Fresh on there and, you know, it was not like a, you know, high expense kinda situation. Like maybe you would've seen with Def Jam or, you know, some of the New York, LA labels, it was just like, you know, you know, probably low, low cost, high output. You know, like there's a high margin business, low overhead, you know, it's lean and mean. So I think from, in that regard, Cash Money, you know, it might have been, it might have been the best business, you know, out of any record label. Right. In terms of sort of like efficiency and profitability and stuff like that. [00:08:47] Dan: That's a great point because if you look at that vibe, I think that was the vibe for the South overall. We saw that with no Limit as well, just with in-house production sheep, that production does almost everything and the music videos aren't flashy and the fact that I think they stuck with what they do and what they work with well, and eventually I think collaborations came, but that was something that they were hesitant about as well. Just thinking about juvenile dropping 400 degrees, and I'm going back to that just because that's the first album that comes after that 1998 Universal deal, which we'll talk about soon, but, that album, I'm pretty sure the entire production value for those music videos probably costs less than one of the suits that Puffy and Mace wore in the music videos. or, yeah, Jay-Z's Sunshine Music video, which I know has been talked about for years on end, but that's what the vibe was. There were no Hype Williams music videos coming through Cash Money. Right. At least at that point. I know they came later when Wayne blew up further, but that's what they did. They stuck to what they did and it worked. It worked so well.  [00:09:55] Zack: Warren Buffet would love Cash Money.  [00:09:59] Dan: Oh yeah. He loves little cost. [00:09:59] Zack: Cash Value. Value, cash value investor. Right. Early cash money would be the Warren Buffet play. [00:10:06] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. And the thing is too, you talked about it earlier, just some of this things leading up to the big deal that they had, but even back in those early days, even before the Universal deal, Birdman and Slim, the co-founders of Cash Money Records had a history of legal issues with artists and not paying artists on time. And I actually have a list here, and it's probably an incomplete list, but artists that have had some type of dispute or issue with Cash Money records when it comes to payments. So I have Lil Wayne, Pharrell, Clipse, David Banner, Bangladesh, the producer, at least five or six artists before 1998, Wendy Day, who's not an artist, but one of the attorneys and people that helped make this deal happen. Behi Turk and Shal and Jazz Prince, of course himself. Tiger, Manny Fresh, and I'm sure I'm missing people from that list.  [00:11:01] Zack: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a long and storied list of people to have disputes with and, you know, it really is something that goes, you know, hand in hand with success.You can't ignore that history. So, you know, I think it is important to remember some of the context. You know, these guys were coming out of a completely different world. You know, and they were hustlers. They were legit hustlers in New Orleans. And, you know, in doing some reporting, you know, I verified it. I mean, you know, they were the real deal. They moved things over. They went legit. They became record moguls and Bird Man's Case became a rapper himself. And, you know, they were not people who had dealt with, you know, sets of books, right? There was not really necessarily like bookkeeping apparatus in their form of business. So, you know, I think there was an adjustment period that, you know, let's say perhaps went on for too long in terms of, you know, getting things papered up and straightened out. But, you know, I wrote a big story on them in 2019 for Forbes, where I went down to Miami and spent some time with Birdman and Slim. I talked to their lawyers a lot. I talked to Wendy Day. Spend some time in the studio with them and you know, I mean, everybody of course has, if you ask people in the Cash Money camp, they're gonna have their side of the story. If you ask whoever they're having the dispute with, you know, they're gonna have their side of the story too. And you know, obviously when there's smoke, there's fire, there's a hell of a lot of smoke when it comes to not getting paid on time. But…  [00:12:29] Dan: What would you say is the Cash Money side of the story, though? The Cash Money is this it? [00:12:33] Zack: They, you know, started out as people who had not had formal training in business, doing business with a lot of other people who had not had formal training in business, who were represented by people who had not had formal training in business. And so when you go back to some of these early documents, it was not properly papered over on either side. And so there's a lot of question over, you know, who owns what, you know, I don't know that anybody who was involved in some of those early deals really, you know, had a full grasp of sort of, you know, music copyright and publishing and, and master recordings and all that. I mean, you know, it's not like an intuitive business, you know, it's like, wait, what? There's two writes to every song. They've like, there's a publishing and a recorded music. It's separate. How does that work? So I think a lot of that was, you know, kind of like if you go back the nineties and early nineties, especially when they're getting started, you know, before the Universal deal there was just really like, you know, I would imagine a lot of handshake deals, a lot of just, you know, kind of like, let's see how, how it goes sort of stuff. A lot of, you know, here we're gonna give you a bag of cash and you do you give us this beat or you give us a verse or whatever. So, you know, it makes sense to me that it might not be papered up properly. But, you know, the fact that that's continued, you know, so far into the future, you know, that's another story. So, you know, what they did say was that, you know, after, and we can talk more about this Universal deal, but after the Universal deal started and then, you know, as it continued to evolve, you know, to where Universal got an even bigger cut of, you know, distribution fee or like an even bigger distribution fee than it had signed up for in the beginning. Universal took on more and more of sort of the back office function. And so, you know, some of the more recent stuff is, you know, a little bit more papered up properly. So that's the Cash Money side. But, you know, it's funny, I mean, when I did this story and I reached out to all these folks, you know, what I got was like a no comment, which says to me that, you know, things have been settled up and they kind of don't want to get into it anymore. Right. Or maybe there was an NDA involved. But yeah, a lot, a lot of smoke. A lot of smoke in that area, for sure.  [00:14:42] Dan: Yeah, the NDAs are key. I remember there was one of the people that I had mentioned earlier that I was going to have on the podcast of Trapital, the interview timing didn't work out, but that was one of the first things they said. If you have any questions for us about Birdman and his relationship with this artist or anything like that. No, we're not answering it. And I was just like, all right, noted. Like, and I feel like that's kind of RANE with a lot of this, but I think they and Birdman and Slim specifically in an odd way. It wasn't even just to them alone. I feel like there was this ethos of, you could almost put Suge Knight into this same category as well, but these people that were cut throat with business folks that they were doing major deals with, whether it was Suge Knight with the folks at Interscope or Birdman with Universal, I'm like, Hey, I'm gonna take what's mine. And rightfully so. They kept ownership over what worked for them and they did that, but they kept that same energy with a lot of the people that like worked with them on the other side too. And that's the piece of it that while it was frustrating to see there are actually some other sides of this too, because even the fact that I think we can get into it in a little bit, but just some of the artists, they were able to sign how they went about that. As frustrating as it was about them not paying artists, like there not every aspect of the business was and is predatory. So that's one thing that you know started to come up more and more as once you get past the salacious parts of the details and stuff, you're like, okay, no and no different than why you went down there to report them. Right. There is nuance and there are a number of things to dive into. For sure, for sure. So shifting here, one of the other things that I've thought about, we talked a little bit about what set Cash Money apart. We talked a bunch about the backstory and the bad rep, but the next thing up here is about Cash Money itself and whether or not you think that it succeeded cause of Birdman and Slim or it succeeded despite them. So thinking about this hypothetical world, if it even is possible, other folks that would've had this label in their hands and what things would've looked like, what's your take there? If we're really isolating them as business leaders. [00:16:52] Zack: I absolutely think it succeeded because of them. I mean, did they get in their own way some of the time? Absolutely. But I think, you know, anybody who can run a business that goes from like the early nineties in an informal economy, you know, in like the Louisiana area to being this global thing, to this day that is still, you know, very much at the forefront of an industry. I mean, you know, like they gotta be doing something right. You know, 30 plus years on the staying relevant and, you know, from like the early days Hot Boys to like the late nineties and, you know, remember Big Timers and Oh yeah. Still flying, all that, you know, heyday as we were alluding to, and sort of like the late s apparently, you know, 2010s, you know, of Cash Money, Young Money with Nikki and Drake and Wayne. Even coming through to, you know, to you to say Scorp. I mean, that's a really long run of relevance and you know, have that, I mean, yeah, like I said, they gotta be doing something  [00:17:53] Dan: Right. Yeah. I think it's because of them too. I will. Because as much as there are issues, and we've talked about a lot of them here, There's so much of this that would've succeeded with folks, other folks in charge, because there are a lot of record labels from the South that tried to do what Cash Money did as well. And a lot of them came and then most of them went. And the fact that we're having this conversation and not having it about them is part of it. And a lot of those record labels had talented people as well, but things just didn't carry over. They may have taken, you know, a bigger deal to get more money upfront, but then the hypothetical is, let's say it was in the hands of someone else that wouldn't have been able to push it forward, then it becomes part of the Island Def Jam conglomerate and then just kind of gets mixed and mixed. And then it becomes one of the many labels that you hear about where it's like, oh yeah, whatever happened to this one or that one. And I think it took what could have been easily, because there would've been enough meat on the bone if we just talked about Cash Money from the early nineties up until, let's say the mid two thousands. Right. And I think that's, inflection point that we can talk about in a little bit. Even that itself was a great run itself. And then you look at the second half of the career from like the mid two thousands on, that's a whole other historic record label. They have two of those under the same house. I think it's because of them and as much as it can be frustrating to hear and see and, you know, unlikely there's some critical things. But let's jump into that now though, because I think one of the questions we have here is the biggest signing that this record label has had. What do you think is the biggest signing for Cash Money? [00:19:29] Zack: Oh man. You know, I think probably easy answer is Drake, but you know, I would actually say Lil Wayne because if you don't have Wayne, I don't think the Drake thing happens, you know, and really Lil Wayne from such a young age going all the way back to the hot boys and, and you know, coming through. All those Carter albums, you know, like he's the backbone of this whole operation, you know, musically, sonically. And I think without him you don't get everything else that comes along. What do you think? [00:19:58] Dan: Yeah, it's Wayne too. That's who I have. I know that Drake is the highest commercial artist. If you were to look at all of the numbers and I think without him, the past decade would've looked very different. But we would still be having this conversation in some form. Likely if it wasn't for the past decade of Drake, it may be a bit more truncated. But we may not be having this conversation at all if it wasn't for Wayne. So I think it has to be Wayne there. What do you think is the best business move for Cash Money? [00:20:29] Zack: You know, I'm gonna go back to that first deal that they struck with Universal. I was in the early nineties at Wendy Day, who he mentioned earlier. It was sort of like a go be who helped, you know, really get them, you know, kind of set up properly with this deal. But you know, they negotiated it and they wouldn't take anything less than something that they felt was an incredible deal. And, I remember the story that Slim told me as they went in, they sat down some mid-level executive at Universal and low-balled them to straight up buy half the company. And so he and Birdman just got up to leave. Then Doug Morris walks in and he was the head of Universal at the time. Comes in with another colleague, Mel Lo winter and Slim members, you know, Doug saying, Hey, if I were you, I wouldn't sell my company. He comes in and offers him 30 million advance just for the privilege of doing business. And, what does Universal get a 7% distribution fee, which is not a lot. So kind of almost doesn't make sense from Universal's perspective unless you think about it in terms of market share. Market share is so important when you're the biggest record label because there are all these great things that happen when you have the most market share. There are all kinds of rights that are assigned based on market share. Like anytime there's, you know, a mislabeled song that gets played or gets spun,and this happens a lot, the metadata in music is a disaster. So if, you know, there are these huge pops of sort of like unresolved money and you know, what they eventually do is they get resolved down by market sharing. So if you're Universal, you know, you get the land share of that and there's a lot of other things, a lot of other places where calculations are done based on market share. You can also brag and say that you're the biggest stuff like that. So, you know, certainly it was worth it for Universal to come in and especially, you know, you think about at the time, You know, hip hop was still at a nascent stage and particularly hip hop in the South was like, not even really on the map for Universal to be able to come in and have this connection was really great for them. But, yeah, I mean, what a great deal. 30 million bucks. You don't have to give up anything. You just give, you know, just give a distribution fee and frankly, you would want your stuff to be distributed by this, you know, enormous record label anyway, so that you could expand and get bigger and better. So I think hands down, that's it. You know, that didn't stop, that there were rumors, you know, that they were even bootlegging their own music, like out the back or wherever, so that they didn't have to pay the 7%. But I, you know, I don't know. I mean, that's that talk about, you know, efficient business. But, you know, I think you go back to that deal that kind of laid the groundwork. Cause if they had given up half of their company way back then, I mean, you see what happened, Jay-Z he up, you know, a huge chunk of Rockefeller early on and. And I think was never really that incentivized, you know, to make that his main thing anymore because, you know, he'd given up such a big chunk early on. [00:23:29] Dan: Yeah, it's one of the best deals we've seen in music and one of the best deals we've seen in hip hop over the past 30 years without question. And the fact that they were able to get everything you mentioned, plus 2 million advance for three years. They kept ownership of the Masters too. And that's the thing that, as we talked about, Birdman and Slim are still collecting on that year after year. So it's up there. It's incredible. And I know that there were other labels that tried to do the same, but just couldn't. I think part of the reason is that this goes back to them focusing odd, what works for them. They had a unique sound. Universal saw this as their entryway to the south in an authentic way because back then, you know, the south was still vying for dominance. And I know that, you know, things were happening at LaFace, but this was different. The New Orleans sound was different from what was happening in Atlanta at the moment. And this gave you an entry path into that. So it was big time.  [00:24:27] Zack: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, I think, you know, also 30 million back then, I mean, probably more like 50, 60 million when you talk about inflation. But you know, I would, to our earlier point, you know, did Cash Money succeed? You know, or despite Slim and Birdman, you know, that's situation where, you know, obviously I wasn't there and there wasn't a video of it, but, you know, when you sit down with Slim and Birdman, like you can get the sense that it would be tough to negotiate with that.You know? I mean, Slim's sitting there, he's like 10 feet tall. He doesn't really talk very much, you know, and Birdman, he can get pretty loquacious, but like, uh, he, you know, when he wants to, you know, be kind of stone based, you know, I mean, he can, he can have a great poker face. So I think, you know, if you're some executive, you're going in and you're trying to get them to sell, and they have really no incentive to sell, and they're sitting. Just like, Nope, we're good. You know? I think that that leads you to offer them some crazy deal, like the one that Universal offered and so I really would chocolate up to some very good negotiating, on their part as well.  [00:25:31] Dan: Yeah. You need to be able to negotiate to pull off hip hop's Louisiana purchase. Got to at least one half. Absolutely. At least one half of it. Yeah. So, yeah. The other thing that I did have was a dark horse move and a move that doesn't get talked about as much, and as much as that move does get focused on the one dark horse that I did have is the, well, I guess too, but let me focus on this one. I would say that the mixtape strategy that they had with Lil Wayne in the mid to late two thousands, even though cash money had ownership of the music, even though this, I think that worked so well. One of the questions that we have is just how well did this company record label transition from different stages of music, whether it was from the CD era, ringtones or ringtones, to streaming it, Cash Money knocked it out of the park. With each of their albums sold, especially when they did this deal at the height of the CD era, when the music industry was struggling in the mid two thousands and they were trying to get people to buy CDs. They were just like, Hey, let's give away the music for free. And Wayne was rapping over other beats. He was in his bag more than anyone, and from dedications to Drought, all of those, just so many classics in there that I think real Hip Hop fans and folks that were following Wayne were following even more so than the next album. So all of that speaks. Lil Wayne being able to sell over a million albums in the first week when the Carter three drops in 2008, which is still a very tough time for CD sales to even happen. So that whole run and just the thought to do that. And granted, I think some of this may have been a bit more on Lil Wayne's push himself, especially because at that point he had his own young money imprint. But all of this is happening and you know, Birdman and Slim had a problem with it. They could have said no. But I think the fact that they leaned into the change that was happening, you already saw what 50 Cent did with his mixtapes in the mid two thousands. You get drama, you get the other folks in the south to be able to help make this happen. And I think it worked out well for them. [00:27:34] Zack: Yeah, absolutely. That's a really good point too. So, you know, I mean, I guess when you have a label that has been that successful, that long, Yeah, there should be a couple different options for what the best move was. Yeah, I like that as a sleeper pick.  [00:27:47] Dan: Yeah. And Lollipop is the best selling ringtone of all time too. over 5 million ringtones sold, and I mean, ringtones, were selling for like three bucks each to that point. So I mean 15 million just from folks wanting to, you know, have, you know, that little jingle on there, Motorola razors or whatever the hell people were using at that point. But, what was your dark horse? Oh  [00:28:10] Zack: Oh man, that's a really good question. I don't know. I mean, I guess it was just so clearly the Universal deal to me. But, you know, and Drake wouldn't really be considered a dark horse candidate, I guess you could say. As time went on, you know, some of the subsequent deals that they worked out with Universal, you know, maybe some of the deals where they were able to get Universal to tackle some of the back office stuff. I mean, it's very unsexy, but you know, that's clearly an area where they needed to improve. So, let's say,to give us some cash in terms of like higher distribution fee in order to have Universal, you know, cover some of this stuff. It's kinda like a boring, dark horse candidate. But you know, I mean, you could say that that's probably useful in terms of buttoning things up and you know, there was a lot of smoke, like we said, but you know, nothing ever, like the house never burned down. So, you know, maybe, maybe those kinds of arrangements really kind of help prevent something like that from happening. [00:29:03] Dan: And I think that back office piece also just makes me think about the broader partnership and the expertise that they were able to lean on. And a question that I actually didn't explore, but now I'm thinking more about it, is how different do we think that the Universal partnership would've been, let's say Cash Money had partnered with another label under the Universal umbrella? Because obviously part of this is very close. There was Universal Republic at the time and they've been hand in hand working with Monte and Avery Lipman ever since, and they are two of the most highly regarded executives in the game that have now being, year after year after year, the label with the number one market share. And part of that is because of Cash Money itself, but it's also because of all the other stars, even outside of that label, they have been able to bring it to, as opposed to many of the other labels in the Universal Umbrella or the umbrella of Universal Music group labels that have not had that consistency. So I also think there's a dynamic there where, let's say there's another world where cash money was under capital or cash money was under some of these other labels that have struggled to stay relevant, what that would've looked like. [00:30:10] Zack: Yeah. I mean, I think if you, if you kind of need to go back to Def Jam, you know, some of the back and forth that Def Jam has had over the years. It gives you an idea of, or even as like a top label, the kind of trials and tribulations you might go under. But you know, when you're coming in, you know, going directly to Doug Morris, you know that that gives you a lot of leeway, a lot of leverage. You got that line straight to the top. And, you know, even with somebody like Jay, it took him, it wasn't until, you know, I don't know, when he was dealing directly with Doug Morris, when Doug, this is, I think around the time of Blueprint three, and Jay had that line. I gave Doug a grip. I lost the flip for five stacks. He could have the album. They bet 10 million on a coin flip and like, you know, one way or the other. So, you know, but Birdman we're doing that like, you know, 15 years earlier, having that kind of direct line. So, you know, again, I think going straight to serve them incredibly well. [00:31:09] Dan: Definitely. Yeah. Another, another piece too. So, two other, like sonically three other dark horse candidates, I'll bring 'em, but they're all under the same thing, was Bird Man's ability to win bid wars and win huge bidding wars, I think is an underrated piece of this record label. So I'll bring up three of them. First one, go back to 2004. So this is around the time thatCarter came out and Wayne was considering to leave Def Jam, and this was around the time that Jay-Z had just became president and Jay-Z pushed hard, make that happen and couldn't leave cash money for Def Jam. That was the thought, right? [00:31:43] Zack: Yeah. Yeah. Carter boys, and there were all these, you know, kind of … [00:31:49] Dan: Yeah, they're trying to push the whole Carter board thing and yeah, Birdman was like, all right, come through. I'll give you your own imprint and you are the president of that imprint and let's continue this thing. And that obviously sets up young money and then the next 15 years after that, right. So he does that. Yeah. And I think that's huge because then that sets the stage for the bidding war for Drake, because Drake drops so far gone beginning of 2009. And this is like, you know, everyone is trying to, it's like when Yaba sweepstakes we're seeing in the NBA right now everyone wants this person and everyone is going after them. I mean, truly Greenwall Lior, everyone was trying to get 'em. And it was that connection that Drake had with Cortez, Brian and Jay Prince Ja Prince and that whole crew that I think eventually helped keep him on the cash money roster there. So that was a huge one. And I think we saw something similar with Nicki Minaj as well. A couple months later. Everyone wanted her to beat me up. Scotty the mixtapes were hot and he and Wayne, Wayne was like, no, I want her to be the, the first lady of the label. That was the whole thing in the two thousands, right? Everyone wanted to have the first lady. You saw it in the nineties, right? But like everyone wanted to declare and elevate this person and rightfully so, but like that's who we had. And then we obviously saw the beginning and the middle part of that next decade. Just go on one of the all-time runs. So Bird Band's ability to win against the biggest people in the industry for record label that his men, you know, his brother own is really impressive for sure. [00:33:21] Zack: And you know, it served Lil Wayne well in the end because Young Money became something that he was able to sell for, you know, about a hundred million dollars for his stake later on too. So, you know, keeping that ownership as opposed to just chasing the biggest advance time and time again we see in hip hop. You know, it's so important. But, you know, I was thinking the other night, it is funny, like everyone has watched New Jack City, and it had been ages, ages, ages. And if they reminded me, I mean, how much of the whole Young Money, Cash Money situation is modeled after elements of that movie. I mean, even just like, The name Cash Money or C M B Y M C M B. The shirts, like the shirts, are incredibly similar that, you know, a lot of the lines, even the Carter, you know, the albums are named. I mean, the Carter was the building, you know, where Wesley Stein's character was like running this whole operation you know, that's kind of like another interesting element to the whole, you know, to the whole narrative. Like, you know, these guys coming out of Louisiana, you know, had their eyes up on this very New York kind of, you know, almost role model, for a business. And, you know, they had been hustlers. They were kind of modeling themselves after these, you know, fictional hustlers in New York and, you know, and then in a way out hustled sort of like the New York record label establishment. So I thought that was kind of an interesting, you know, little side bit of color to the whole story. And, like a bit of irony as well, you know, when you talk about, South versus, New York kind of situation too.  [00:34:59] Dan: And I think that also speaks to some of that mentality too, because here you have Birdman that was getting inspiration from a black crime movie. And I think a lot of the ways of him doing business are very much central on, okay, I wanna support and uplift the black community, do what I can here and grid. And I think, you know, part of how he was able to do that has, you know, been quite controversial just with certain artists he's had on. Yeah. But still, I think that ethos stems back from ownership in trying to keep things in-house as much as you can. And it took them a lot to even partner with other artists from other parts of the countries and stuff like that, that I think you saw with Dino Brown and how he was in that movie and how he carried versus I think someone like Jay-Z who record label Rockefeller named after one of the great white business magnets that you had in this country. Right. And so many Jay-Z bars, whether it's Black Axl, Rose Black, Kirk Cobain called me this. I feel like, you know, people always get on Kanye for some of that. Like always trying to like be okay. I'm, you know, the black version of whatever X person. But I think Jay-Z, you know, also had a lot of that too. And then I think also looking at his business mentality, a lot of his success came from his huge and lucrative partnerships with established companies in this space. So the inspiration I think also became kind of telltale sign for the type of businesses these types of folks ended up creating too.  [00:36:23] Zack: Yeah. And you know, I mean, you know, brown was a really ruthless character. And you know, I think there's like the money and the success that's glamorized. But you know, it's a gritty movie. I mean it seems like he is not a likable guy in the end. You know, without giving too much of the plot, I'm sure everybody's seen it, but like, I was like, wow. Yeah. I don't know if I'd be wanting to model myself after this dude. You know, he's pretty brutal. But, you know, even on the, you know, kind of the lighter side, there's a scene where he's like giving out turkeys at Thanksgiving. Yep. And you know, the Cash Money guys always give out turkeys in New Orleans at Thanksgiving and I wonder if they got that directly from the movie. You know, cuz so many of you know, from the Carter. You know, the c n b kind of, kind of like whole, you know, ethos there. I wonder how much of that they just pulled directly from the movie, so… [00:37:16] Dan: Oh, yeah. I could definitely see that mentality too. And speaking about it, you know, full circle. I could also see Birdman having a bit of that cancel that bitch mentality too, in short situations. [00:37:28] Zack: Right, right, right, right. Exactly. So, yeah, I mean, and they won't talk about that part of it, the interviews maybe, but you kind of get the sense of like that's where the negotiation and the cash element of the Cash Money comes in. Yeah.  [00:37:42] Dan: The aita literally held people over the balcony of a building to get what he wanted. Right. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of that came through to fruition. But next category up here. So missed opportunity. Is there anything that you look at that you're like, man, obviously it's an overall successful company. Is there anything you look back on about what if they did this differently or what if they did that differently? [00:38:02] Zack: I think the number one thing I wonder is what if they had sold the whole thing, you know? A year and a half ago, could they have gotten just an insane multiple? I mean, you know, you're seeing like Springsteen staying and all these guys getting hundreds of millions of dollars for their catalogs. So, you know, I get it. And there's, you know, catalogs, hip hop catalogs are valued differently from rock catalogs. And also one of the benefits of rock catalogs is they're usually, you know, written and owned by, you know, all the rights are with the band. There's not like a million different producers coming in. It's not as complicated. So like, you know, they can sell the whole thing, you know, a hundred percent of the rights and you don't have to, you know, it's not like you're just buying like, you know, I don't know, 30% of this and 50% of that and whatever. It's, it's not this complex web, let's say there may not be as many things that haven't been papered over as there were with Cash Money, but man, you know, there were some pretty insane, numbers flying around and I really wonder if, you know, if they had, been applying some of, you know, 20 or 30 x multiple. To whatever they were pulling in, you know, which is, you know, they can just sit there and make, you know, tens of millions of dollars a year, just off of this catalog. I mean, so what would the market have been if they had went and sold the whole thing at the peak of the catalog? Boom. That's what I really wonder.  [00:39:21] Dan: That's a good one. So I guess some high level back of the envelope math on that. So let's say that the peak of the catalog boom was like December, 2020 maybe, and then like, you know, into the spring of 2021 and we definitely saw some 30 x multiples there and at least the last public number I saw, and I think you had this in one of your latest articles as well, but that Cash Money's Masters generated around 30 million annually, or 20 to 30 million. Was that the number? [00:39:49] Zack: Yeah, I think it was at least 30. And you know, cuz Bird, like most of hey Birdman, you know, has been making like close to 20 million a year, for a while, give or take. And you know, most of that is just, you know, the catalog. So yeah, I mean that's just his cut. And then if you figure you double that for Slim, yeah, probably, you know, it was around 30, 35, something like that, so, you know. Yeah. I mean, are they gonna get a 30 x value even at the peak? I don't think so because just hip hop wasn't getting that kind of valuation. I don't really understand that because everybody's like, oh, rock and roll music gonna stand the test of time. It's like if you ask the average 20 year old who Bruce Springsteen is, they're not gonna know. I mean, so I would argue that hip hop is actually gonna be more valuable down the line. But just the valuation, you know, that's not what people have been paying for. So even at the peak, you know, I, I don't know that I saw any valuations anywhere near 30. I think Kanye was shopping his catalog at one point and wanted a 30 x multiple, but, you know, didn't get any bites. So I think it comes down to like, yeah, what kind of multiple could they actually have gotten?  [00:40:56] Dan: Yeah, because even more recently, so yeah, we're recording this now. January, 2023, there was a report that just came out about Dr. Dre selling a collection of music assets that I believe are worth different multiples. But the number that I heard from that was, They generate around 10 million per year and that he wanted 250 and he's getting just over 200 million or somewhere between that. So that's around a 20 x multiple for a deal. That sounds like it was still coming underway in 2022. So if you were to put that multiple on, let's call it 35 million for maybe what Birdman and Slim have collectively, then that is you're talking $700 million. So that's a pretty sizable number, not a billion. But maybe if there are some concerns about, maybe there's a bit more of a split of who owns what. We didn't even talk about publishing right now, but there may be a split too, especially if everything was captured. and even thinking about quality control, for instance, and I think they got around 400 million, 300, got 400 million, but this was last year. So I would assume that 500 to 750 sounds, if I heard a number there, I would be like, sounds about right. If I heard a number lower than that or higher than that, I would probably be surprised one way or the other.  [00:42:15] Zack: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think that makes sense. And it's not just one artist, you know, obviously it's a whole bunch of artists and a bunch of pieces of different artists. But I think another thing, and this is maybe one of the reasons why the hip-hop valuations are lower, is like when you have all those producers, it might not be as easy to get, you know, to get clearances for using stuff in commercials and that sort of thing. Whereas if you buy a hundred percent of the rights, there's no question. Right. And so I'm not even sure if somebody owned 1% of, of something, whatever. Like I don't think they would have some, like, veto right. About the song being played in a commercial. But, you know, when you start to have so many different parties owning bigger stakes, a particular song, it can get a little convoluted and, you know, I do wonder if that's a big part of it as well. [00:43:00] Dan: Yeah, no, that's a good point. Yeah. Cuz I think sampling also is a huge piece of that as well. The missed opportunity for me, this is a bit more of a specific one from like a timeframe, not like a specific move, but Birdman and Little Wayne not settling and squashing the beef, the issues that they had in the mid 2010s. I think we lost out on Wayne. I know Wayne was in prison during part of this, but we lost out on his momentum. We lost out on a lot there because I feel like a lot happened from the Carter four coming out in 2011 to the Carter five coming out in 2018. I believe. There was so much back and forth. There was so much drama. You know, Drake was going on his all time run at that point. Nicki was doing the same. And the fact that the signature biggest artist is literally tweeting out, I want off this label, but it's not that easy. Or sending these messages out in the middle of Wayne and Drake having their tours and him still being on albums and trying to figure out how to drop things. I think it was obviously a great decade in run, but I think it could have been even greater if they were able to solve some of that stuff and figure it out.  [00:44:11] Zack: Yeah, a hundred percent, you know, that that was like, it's a long time to be going between, proper albums, you know, so, and I think that was a really interesting time in the music business. And, I mean, the music business changed completely right from, from 2011 to 2018 from being, you know, oh, this new streaming thing is gonna be important to like, you know, it is the entire business basically. So, you know, and I think that an artist like Wayne, you know, as somebody whose music translates really well to, you know, to that medium. And, you know, as we know, hip hop is a monster on streaming and, you know, tends to do really well. So I would've been really curious to see if he had been able to continue that momentum, you know, just how much bigger he could have gotten in that period of time too. [00:44:57] Dan: Yeah, definitely. The next piece we add too, I think we talked a little bit about this just in terms of how did the label handle the transitions? And I think you just mentioned it there. They were able to do a lot of it well, especially the mixed day piece and the ring toes. And then I think a lot of it laid the work for streaming and Drake is streaming, did a lot of that, the Cash Money labels. So I think that worked. But this next question is interesting though, because it's been around three years, I think it's been at least three years since you did your deep story, the Forbes cover story on Cash Money, where you went down and interviewed them. And then I know it's been four years since I had written a piece around the time that Drake had completed Scorpion and we knew that it was going to be, or at least I thought the future may be bleak. And I think the question that you pose into the piece was, can they strike platinum again? It's been three years since now. What do you think?  [00:45:48] Zack: You know, I don't know. I mean, the rules for platinum, like what constitutes platinum have changed so much that, you know, all it takes is, you get, you know, one hot signing and they do really well on streaming and suddenly you have a platinum whatever. And, you know, it's like, okay, I think that, you know, Drake is gone. Wayne is gone. When I went down there, they were really big on blue face and Jack Reese, you know, I don't know what either of them are turning out to be like, I mean anywhere near Drake, Nikki, Wayne, et cetera. Jack Reese is the king of R&B though, right? That was the whole thing too. So what I'm gonna go with, no, I don't think they will begin Drake Platinum. But I would caveat that by saying it doesn't matter because they can just sit back, and collect these checks. And that's gonna happen. That'll happen even if, you know Drake and Nikki and Wayne retire. I mean, their back catalog stuff is still gonna be a gold mine. And you know, when I was down there, what they said was that they're forever in business with Drake. But they wouldn't get more specific. And so what I took that to mean was, you know, at the time, you know, he was kind of an ex extra kidding himself. But even once he's gone, they're still sitting on these, you know, their share of the copyrights that will be, you know, Drake is a streaming king and they have a big piece of that. So, yeah. Do I think they'll strike platinum again? You know, probably not, but I don't really think it matters. I don't think so, what are they gonna do? Like what are they gonna do? They're gonna sit back and collect those checks. Yeah.  [00:47:26] Dan: Yeah. I came to the same spot as well. I guess platinum in the purest sense of having a chart hit. Sure. There could be a legacy hit that gets, you know, some viral thing on TikTok and then that becomes a hit. Like, I don't know, I don't know if I like slow motion singles, like juvenile when platinum, but I feel like that's the type of song I could see go viral and some TikTok thing and then bring new, that's one of my cat favorite Cash Money songs. And I feel like I could see something like that happen. But I feel like you were kind of posing it more so in the moment of looking at these runs of like late two thousand, late nineties, early two thousands, that Cash Money is like a platinum moment or mid two thousands. Wayne's mixtape ran late two thousands, early 2010 or to mid 2010s. Young Money rises to the highest of heights. I don't think we'll see that moment again. And it's crazy cuz I think there’s times where maybe things could have happened. You had the rich gang moment where he looked like he was so close with Young Thug. And I feel like especially in 2014, people expected Thug to go on to that superstar level and still be very successful. But I think that the stock for Thug at that moment was a little higher than it may be actually reached. And I think some of Thug's proteges kind of reached the heights that we thought Thug would've reached at one point, just in terms of a commercial success perspective. But it just never quite happened. But again, they own this. It's not like they missed some opportunity. This is something that is literally generating tens of millions per year and that's not changing anytime soon. [00:48:54] Zack: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, it's funny, they have, I guess just to sort of like switch gears a tiny bit, but you know, last moment when they said when Birdman and some said they're forever in business with Drake. It wasn't in Miami, but I met with them for some follow-up questions in New York. and they have, like within Universal's building in Midtown, they have a Cash Money conference route. Like there are actually these, I mean I don't think it's diamond play, but the door handles are giant dollar signs, like the Cash Money logo. And, and it looks like they're diamonds in the dollar sign and whatever it is. But, you open up the thing and you go in and there's like all these plaques on the wall and it's just a conference room that's always there. And it's sort of like their designated conference room when they, when they cut the tat. And I remember, yeah, we sat down in that conference room and I really tried to press them on the Drake thing. And I mean, if you dig up the Forbes story, we did a video too. And there's this great kind of tense moment where I'm like really kind of pushing them about it and they're like, we're forever in this with Drake. And like, that's it. And it's clear that's all you're gonna get out of that. But, you know, so, in terms of striking platinum again, yeah, I mean, I could almost envision a scenario where Drake like does the Super Bowl and he plays some, you know, catalog hit that never went platinum. And just purely by the exposure of people hearing it be like, oh man, listen that again, it just suddenly goes platinum again. You know, or for the first time. But yeah, short of that, I know I'm gonna agree with you. I think probably not again, but that it doesn't matter anyway.  [00:50:32] Dan: Yeah. So we have a couple questions left here. This one, and I think it's maybe similar to the fourth you're bringing up, but if you were in Birdman and Slim's shoes today, is there anything that you would be doing differently? [00:50:44] Zack: You know what, I think I go back to that question of like, would you sell the whole thing? Especially if the prospects are kind of dimming a bit and, you know, it's like, I don't know though. I mean, you know, it's like if you're getting up there in age, like would you sell you, you know, you got this great house that you bought, you know, you got this great penthouse apartment in New York that you bought. For like, you know, a hundred thousand dollars in, you know, 1982. And, you could probably get, you know, I don't know, 10 million bucks for it. And then you could just like rent and do whatever you want and you know, for the rest of your life. But like, you don't really need the money. Like, you're fine as it is, like you sell it. Like what would you even do with the money that you got? You really love living in that apartment. Maybe you just stay. And I think that's kind of the point. Like, just remember being in the studio with Birdman and he doesn't need to be doing this. Like, he doesn't need to be running around with Jack in Miami trying to make him the, the king of r&b or whatever. But he truly loves it. Like you, you can tell that he's passionate about it and. After the interview was over, and I wish I had this on tape, but we're just like a dozen of us sitting there in the room. And, Birdman, he goes, Zack, why do people think I'm scary? And I remember he said, he was like, really pointy moment. He's like, I'm respectful. You know, I'm not a clown. I don't turn tables over. I don't scream and yell. I'm respectful. Why are people so afraid of me? And I thought for a minute and I said, you know, as like, look man, like, to be honest, I think the base tattoos really are kind of like off putting some people who are not used to that sort of thing. And, he was like, yeah, I've been thinking of getting them removed. You know, I think it'd be better for business. So, you know, it's like there's still this element of, you know, even though he's made it and he's got everything he wants, there's still this part of him that came from a different world. That, you know, he's kind of like still stuck between two worlds, between the world that he came up in and the world that he can afford to live in. And, I think, you know, where he feels at his best is in the studio. So why would you sell that whole thing? Why would you, you know, I mean, why would you kind of give that up? And I think Slim likes it too. And you know, they have this really funny relationship and, you know, Birdman's in the studio and Slim does live the business. And that's kind of the breakdown of it. And I just remember, like after this interview, you know, after leaving the studio, I went and we were all supposed to have dinner together and I went off with Slim and we waited for like a half an hour in the parking lot for Birdman. And he just never showed up. And then we went to dinner and he just never showed up. And it's cuz he wanted to stay in.He just stayed in the studio all freaking night. Cuz that's what he really loves. So, yeah, I guess it's a long way of saying, what would I do if I were them? I mean, you know, probably like the financial advisor advice would be. Sell this big thing and then you're totally set for the rest of your life. But you know, if it's throwing off enough, more than enough money, tens of millions of dollars every year for you to live on, what's the point? You know, why not just do that and do what makes you happy? [00:53:59] Dan: I think that's a piece that often gets for guys and understands what some of this stuff is, that some people really just love the craft. It makes me think too about someone like Martin Scorsese or Steven Spielberg and these directors that are now in their seventies or eighties, they're not doing these movies to try to make more money. Well, granted, yes, I think they're bought into the financial success. They want fair terms. But this is what they enjoy doing. They've been doing it since they were kids and they wanna just find outlets to be able to do this in the best way possible. And I think the same could be said about Birdman of wanting to be in the studio and just wanting to have that energy. And if you sell that, then what do you do? I think especially for someone like him that's stuck to the thing that he does well. And you know, like he isn't out here like Jay-Z trying to be mogul in the sense of having different things. I mean, there's a mogul aspect in terms of media ownership, but not in the sense of like, yes, I own this, I do this, I do that as well. Sure. Maybe there's some smaller things that are in the, you know, new Orleans or, or the Louisiana area, but not in that same way. So I do think that speaks a lot to that.  [00:55:06] Zack: Yeah. And I think they have dabbled in other stuff for sure. And you know, real estate, and I think there was some period of time where they had like some oil rigs or something like that.They had a vodka called G T V. They were trying to really build up Y M C M B as like, as a clothing line type of thing, rather than just merch. But, you know, none of that really kind of like ever went viral in the way that any of their artists did. So, you know, and maybe because it was that they just didn't have the passion for it that they have for music. Like that example of Birdman. So, you know, Jay clearly has the passion for the business. He clearly has the passion for, you know, doing the champagne thing or, you know, doing the VC thing. And you can tell cuz he's out there doing it. He’s doing it cuz he loves it, and he makes money. But, I think it's hard for something to do well if you aren't truly passionate. Because consumers can kind of see through that. And also, you're not gonna go the extra mile for something if you don't truly care about it either. Definitely.  [00:56:08] Dan: Definitely. And mine is a little different. And this may be more so from a selfish perspective of what I would do, but that's part of the question, right? Yeah. As someone that is such a fan of the vibe and the culture that they were able to create, I want to be able to relive that in different ways. I wish that Birdman and the team could patch things up and there could be a true Cash Money reunion tour that goes across the country. I know there's been different things here or there, but the same way that Didat did the Big Bad Boy Arena tour in 2016. I wanna be able to see that. I'd love to be able to do that. And I also wanna see a music biopic and the same style and the same budget and energy of Straight Outta Compton. I would love to see that about the Cash Money story. And to be honest, I feel like, I know there's a lot of energy around these biopics, but like I may be biased because it's the genre I like since Street Outta Compton came out, I just haven't seen one that's, you know, as good as that. And sometimes it's a bit frustrating when I see movies like Bohemian Rhapsody or Elvis, which I think they're fine, but I don't think they're as good as Straight Outta Compton and they're getting all these awards and stuff. And it makes me think that okay, I don't know whether it'll get Gary Gray back again or someone that can, you know, tell this story in a great way. I would love to see that unfold, but I think you would also need buy-in from the artist because obviously the fact that the relationships are straight can make some of this tough. And the willingness to tell the story in an honest way and the fact that there's kind of two sides to everything. Is Birdman gonna be bought in if he and his brother are being shown as, you know, like predatory loan sharks, like screwed people over. Right. Are the artists gonna be happy if it's making it seem too favorable to Birdman? So I know there's some contentions with how the story is told, but it's still something I would love to see done in the right way.  [00:57:56] Zack: Yeah. Not to mention, how would you clear all the music, you know, how would you handle that? Although maybe now it's a little bit more streamlined, but you know, again, you know, a lot of different cooks in the kitchen there, so you never know. But yeah, no, I'd love to see that too. Oh man. That people asked.  [00:58:13] Dan: All right, so last question here. Who won? If there's one person, artist, executive from Cash Money, who would you say is the winner of everything that's happened over the past 30 plus years? [00:58:24] Zack: You know, I think there's a lot of winners, a lot of losers, A lot of you get kind of a little bit of both, but I'm gonna go with Slim, you know, I mean, Slim has been in the background, like Birdman has gotten some more of the glory, but he is also taken a lot more of the heat. I mean, he has taken basically all the heat, I think, and Slim has managed to just sit back, run this like incredible business and make just a boatload of money without taking some of the heat that his brother did. So, yeah, I'm gonna go with Slim. How about that? I wanna know, what do you think? I like that answer.  [00:58:57] Dan: I'm glad you said that. Yeah, because I think it would be both, but Birdman is my answer. The bidding wars that he won over the years. The ruthlessness of just getting the deals done, staying true to what he knows. There's a lot that I disagree with, and there's a lot that I wish that he had done differently and a bunch of missed opportunities, but they did something that we have not seen done in hip hop before, and we may not see that again, just because of how things have changed and evolved over time. So it really is a credit to that happening. So yeah, I love the Slim take too, because the fact that he reaps the rewards without, you know, any of the backlash. Like I've never seen anyone tweet or get frustrated about like, oh yeah, you know, Slim's really screwing these artists over. Slim's really doing this. You know what I mean? It's always a photoable Birdman, you know, like, right. But yeah. Oh man. Such a fascinating label. Yeah. Before we close things out, any final thoughts on Cash Money records?  [00:59:57] Zack: Well, you know, I wouldn't say also, About Slim. You know, there's this, somebody had a great quote. It was some writer and they, it was some famous writer, and they said, a writer's fame is the best fame because you are not famous enough to get bothered on the street, but you are famous enough to get a good table at a good restaurant. And, you know, in a way, I think that's, that's kind of what Slim was able to do. Like, he could get, you know, what, whatever he wants, he could have, but nobody's kind of bothering him about it. And I think that's how he wants it. And, you know, Birdman, whatever he wants, he could have sort of, but what he can't do is walk outside without, you know, everybody harassing him, you know? So, you know, I think that to some extent he's more interested in the spotlight. You get the good with the bad. But you know, I think that spotlight it's important, like being able to turn it off is a really great luxury to have to turn it on and off. And, you know, once it's on all the time, you'll never be able to turn it off. So I am going to Slim for that. Yeah, for sure. [01:01:02] Dan: And Slim also did get memes made out of him from telling Charlamagne off of the Breakfast Club, either or that too. [01:01:08] Zack: Yeah. Or the Birdman hand rub.  [01:01:11] Dan: Is that the Birdman hand rub? Yeah, the No clap though. I mean, I need to put on that though, but man, what a moment. Yeah, yeah. All right. Toasted Cash Money. And this is a fun one. What a fascinating case study. And yeah, we're gonna tell the stories that don't get told elsewhere. So Zack, thank you for coming through and thanks again for this Young Money, Cash Money t-shirt for those folks watching the videos. You can see this is the one last time I was in New York, Zack came through, he was like, I got something for you. And yeah, I had to make it happen.  [01:01:40] Zack: That's right. I should have worn mine today. But, it was in the laundry. You know. It was in the laundry. .  [01:01:45] Dan: Oh, yeah, definitely. All right, man. Thank you. [01:01:48] Zack: Appreciate it. All right. Have a good one. Thanks again. Yep.  [01:01:51] Dan: All right, cool. [01:01:53] Dan Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend and post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Everybody’s got something to say about Cash Money Records and the brothers who co-founded the label —Bryan “Birdman” Williams and Ronald “Slim” Williams. To paint the full Cash Money full picture, good and bad, I brought on Zack O’Malley Greenberg who has interviewed the brothers at-length while working at Forbes.


Cash Money has one of the deepest catalogs in the game with several classics. And unlike some other upstart hip-hop labels, Birdman and Slim maintained control as they rose up. Their 1998 distribution deal with Universal is hip-hop’s Louisiana Purchase.


But we can’t ignore Cash Money’s lows either. There is a long, long list of artists who claim they were not compensated fairly by Birdman and Slim.

Zack and I go through 30 years of Cash Money as a business, its competitive advantage, and what comes next now that Drake and Wayne are gone from the label. 


[1:44] Is Cash Money the greatest hip-hop record label of all time?

[7:34] What people sleep on about Cash Money

[11:01] Cash Money’s history of not paying artists 

[16:52] Did Cash Money succeed because of Birdman and Slim or despite them? 

[19:29] Biggest signing? 

[20:29] The 1998 Universal-Cash Money deal 

[25:31] Lil’ Wayne’s mixtape run

[29:03] The benefit of partnering with Republic Records

[31:49] Bidding wars for Lil Wayne, Drake, and Nicki Minaj

[33:21] Connection with New Jack City 

[40:56] Cash Money catalog valuation ?

[43:00] Lil Wayne’s beef with Birdman 

[45:48] Can Cash Money strike platinum again? 

[50:44] Birdman’s love for music 

[56:08] Hopes for a Cash Money reunion tour and biopic 

[58:24] Who “won” the most in Cash Money’s history?



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Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog


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Transcription

[00:00:00] Zack: You know, some of the subsequent deals that they worked out with Universal, you know, maybe some of the deals where they were able to get universal to, to tackle some of the back office stuff. I mean, it's very unsexy, but you know, that's clearly an area where they needed to improve. So, let's say,to give some cash in terms of like higher distribution fee in order to have Universal, you know, cover some of this stuff. It's kinda like a boring, dark horse candidate, but you know, I mean, you could say that, that's probably useful in terms of buttoning things up.

[00:00:37] Dan Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:57] Dan: All right. Today's episode is all about the one, the only cash money records. I got the one and only Zack Greenberg here who has reported on this company many times before we ran to this company and the business moves they did in our Top 10 Revolutionary list last year. So Zack, welcome back. I'm excited for this one.

[00:01:18] Zack: Always good to be here with you, Dan. 

[00:01:19] Dan: Yeah. So for the folks listening, we are gonna do this in a few ways. We got a bunch of categories here that we're gonna run through, just evaluating Cash Money as a business, some of the highs, some of the lows, and just where they stand overall. But I think it'll be great to kick it off with the question that we often hear from folks is Cash Money, the greatest hip hop record label of all time? What's your point? What's your take?

[00:01:44] Zack: How, man, you know, I mean, I think it's sort of like, any of these greatest ever are you talking about, overall body of work or sort of like, you know, The label at its peak. But you know, I think you gotta take it in an overall body of work, you know, type of thing. You know, it's hard to top Def Jam, I think, you know, if you were gonna go with an overall body of work, hip hop, legacy. But, you know, I don't know other than that, I mean, it's hard to say that there's anybody who you'd put above cash money, I'd say. Especially something that is, you know, really artist founded in that same way. I mean, you could talk about Bad Boy, you could talk about Rockefeller. But I think that, you know, Cash Money has staying power. You know, through Drake and Nikki and Lil Wayne and so forth, you know, in a way that, you know, I would argue that a lot of these other labels haven't, and, you know, who else can say that they've had Drake for that long? And I guess he's not there anymore. But man, that was pretty recent development and it's been a pretty great run. So, you know, to go all the way from the early nineties, you know, through basically now being relevant, stacking up all that catalog, you know, it's certainly, if not number one, it's, you know, gotta be top three, if not top two.

[00:03:00] Dan: Yeah. So my answer is Def Jam as well, and we'll get to Def Jam in a minute. But, the case for Cash Money is this, and I know a few people have said it. Irv Gotti recently said it. Russell Simmons himself said that Cash Money was the greatest hip hop company that has come through. But the case for cash money, you mentioned it earlier, the fact that they did it while owning the core asset and the music and still doing that moving forward says a lot. Not something that can be said about Def Jam, many of the others that would be even in the conversation. I think even with a newer label at Quality Control, they've still done it while owning it. Well, at least up to this point from some rumors that are happening. But I think that's one case for Def Jam. But then I think of the continued run of success from everything that happened in the nineties from I guess we could start with like juvenile drop in HA in 98 and then pretty much everything from Drake's last Cash Money album, which I believe was Scorpion. So if you're looking just at like that run from everything there, that is such a strong hit rate. And I think that's the thing too that I would give them over Def Jam is the hit rate of who were the artists we signed and what was their likelihood of success and they were just able to do it. Even with the imprints, I mean, I think major record labels. So wrong with so many imprints. I just never worked out and for them to have, whether it's Young Money or even the smaller moments with the best music or with Rich Gain, there was always something there. And even though there was some conflict, and we'll get to that, I think that's the Cash Money case. The Def Jam case though, I think this is where I think of course Def Jam did end up becoming a major record label, so it's a little bit nuanced there, but I do think you have that eighties run Beasties LL Public Enemy. You got the nineties run with all those artists too. Especially looking at what Red Band met the man DMX. I feel like they had New York on Locke and then two thousands, the Rockefeller partner. Murder Inc. The video games, I mean, it's, I know the last decade hasn't been there, but it would be tough to not put Def Jam up top, but I understand if some people would consider Def Jam a major as opposed to, you know, an independent. So, I get the nuance there. 

[00:05:10] Zack: right, right. And, and being, you know, fully owned by a major as opposed to Cash Money, which really has distribution agreement. You know, and you could look at, you know, I guess Def Jam was sold in chunks, but the total amount that sold for, you'd have to adjust for inflation and stuff. But I wonder how that would stack up against the current value of cash money today, which, you know, it's incredibly driven by the copyrights that they still control and, you know, definitely hundreds of millions of dollars. You know, if you look at, Lil Wayne kind of quietly sold his The Young Money, Cash Money Partnership for a hundred million bucks a couple years ago, that was before the catalog boom, got really crazy and then kind of died down again. So, you know that that's valuing what Birdman and Slim Own, you know, just on the Young Money, Cash Money side of the business, you know, at nine figures. So there's, you know, there's a lot more to the company than that, although that's, you know, that's kind of the gold line. But still, you gotta think that, you know, this is still, you know, sent a million dollar business and, you know, I'd be curious to see what a proper valuation, you know, what it would look like against the total value that Def Jam got, you know, in terms of dollars over the years. But, you know, when you think about who was hottest and what record label was hottest at any particular point, Yeah, I think probably the peak was there was that year that Def Jam was, you know, getting sold or the second half of it was getting sold. And, Lyor basically said to Jay and D M X, like, let's have two albums this year. And, you know, because the valuation is gonna be based on revenues, not earnings. And like, the more you can sell, the more we get. And so, you know, that moment at D M X at his peak, and you know, Jay, I think, I'd say at least at his commercial, you know, record Sales Peak, you know, as an individual artist, you know, that was about as hot as, as it could ever get for, for any record label, I think. 

[00:07:08] Dan: That's a good point. So I guess if we were to compare Def Jams 98 and 99, like that run to Yeah. Cash Money, and I know there's a few runs you could put in there, but from an overall commercial perspective, it would have to be 0 8, 0 9 20 10, I would probably assume, because you get. Carter three, and then you get, you know, Drake's debut, Nikki's debut. I feel like it would probably be somewhere in there. 

[00:07:34] Zack: Yeah, that's probably pretty close. I mean, that was a lot, you know, that was a lot of concentration within a couple year period as well. You know, and I think the other thing about Cash Money, that maybe people sleep on to some extent is, you know, just like the efficiency of the label, especially in the early days. And, you know, of course we can get into some of the issues with paying producers and so forth, but, you know, they really had a system and you know, it was going and finding artists that were bubbling up, you know, first in the New Orleans area. I mean, this is in the nineties, and, you know, and then kind of just plugging them into the machine. Right. You know, put them with stable producers in-house, get Manny Fresh on there and, you know, it was not like a, you know, high expense kinda situation. Like maybe you would've seen with Def Jam or, you know, some of the New York, LA labels, it was just like, you know, you know, probably low, low cost, high output. You know, like there's a high margin business, low overhead, you know, it's lean and mean. So I think from, in that regard, Cash Money, you know, it might have been, it might have been the best business, you know, out of any record label. Right. In terms of sort of like efficiency and profitability and stuff like that.

[00:08:47] Dan: That's a great point because if you look at that vibe, I think that was the vibe for the South overall. We saw that with no Limit as well, just with in-house production sheep, that production does almost everything and the music videos aren't flashy and the fact that I think they stuck with what they do and what they work with well, and eventually I think collaborations came, but that was something that they were hesitant about as well. Just thinking about juvenile dropping 400 degrees, and I'm going back to that just because that's the first album that comes after that 1998 Universal deal, which we'll talk about soon, but, that album, I'm pretty sure the entire production value for those music videos probably costs less than one of the suits that Puffy and Mace wore in the music videos. or, yeah, Jay-Z's Sunshine Music video, which I know has been talked about for years on end, but that's what the vibe was. There were no Hype Williams music videos coming through Cash Money. Right. At least at that point. I know they came later when Wayne blew up further, but that's what they did. They stuck to what they did and it worked. It worked so well. 

[00:09:55] Zack: Warren Buffet would love Cash Money. 

[00:09:59] Dan: Oh yeah. He loves little cost.

[00:09:59] Zack: Cash Value. Value, cash value investor. Right. Early cash money would be the Warren Buffet play.

[00:10:06] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. And the thing is too, you talked about it earlier, just some of this things leading up to the big deal that they had, but even back in those early days, even before the Universal deal, Birdman and Slim, the co-founders of Cash Money Records had a history of legal issues with artists and not paying artists on time. And I actually have a list here, and it's probably an incomplete list, but artists that have had some type of dispute or issue with Cash Money records when it comes to payments. So I have Lil Wayne, Pharrell, Clipse, David Banner, Bangladesh, the producer, at least five or six artists before 1998, Wendy Day, who's not an artist, but one of the attorneys and people that helped make this deal happen. Behi Turk and Shal and Jazz Prince, of course himself. Tiger, Manny Fresh, and I'm sure I'm missing people from that list. 

[00:11:01] Zack: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a long and storied list of people to have disputes with and, you know, it really is something that goes, you know, hand in hand with success.You can't ignore that history. So, you know, I think it is important to remember some of the context. You know, these guys were coming out of a completely different world. You know, and they were hustlers. They were legit hustlers in New Orleans. And, you know, in doing some reporting, you know, I verified it. I mean, you know, they were the real deal. They moved things over. They went legit. They became record moguls and Bird Man's Case became a rapper himself. And, you know, they were not people who had dealt with, you know, sets of books, right? There was not really necessarily like bookkeeping apparatus in their form of business. So, you know, I think there was an adjustment period that, you know, let's say perhaps went on for too long in terms of, you know, getting things papered up and straightened out. But, you know, I wrote a big story on them in 2019 for Forbes, where I went down to Miami and spent some time with Birdman and Slim. I talked to their lawyers a lot. I talked to Wendy Day. Spend some time in the studio with them and you know, I mean, everybody of course has, if you ask people in the Cash Money camp, they're gonna have their side of the story. If you ask whoever they're having the dispute with, you know, they're gonna have their side of the story too. And you know, obviously when there's smoke, there's fire, there's a hell of a lot of smoke when it comes to not getting paid on time. But… 

[00:12:29] Dan: What would you say is the Cash Money side of the story, though? The Cash Money is this it?

[00:12:33] Zack: They, you know, started out as people who had not had formal training in business, doing business with a lot of other people who had not had formal training in business, who were represented by people who had not had formal training in business. And so when you go back to some of these early documents, it was not properly papered over on either side. And so there's a lot of question over, you know, who owns what, you know, I don't know that anybody who was involved in some of those early deals really, you know, had a full grasp of sort of, you know, music copyright and publishing and, and master recordings and all that. I mean, you know, it's not like an intuitive business, you know, it's like, wait, what? There's two writes to every song. They've like, there's a publishing and a recorded music. It's separate. How does that work? So I think a lot of that was, you know, kind of like if you go back the nineties and early nineties, especially when they're getting started, you know, before the Universal deal there was just really like, you know, I would imagine a lot of handshake deals, a lot of just, you know, kind of like, let's see how, how it goes sort of stuff. A lot of, you know, here we're gonna give you a bag of cash and you do you give us this beat or you give us a verse or whatever. So, you know, it makes sense to me that it might not be papered up properly. But, you know, the fact that that's continued, you know, so far into the future, you know, that's another story. So, you know, what they did say was that, you know, after, and we can talk more about this Universal deal, but after the Universal deal started and then, you know, as it continued to evolve, you know, to where Universal got an even bigger cut of, you know, distribution fee or like an even bigger distribution fee than it had signed up for in the beginning. Universal took on more and more of sort of the back office function. And so, you know, some of the more recent stuff is, you know, a little bit more papered up properly. So that's the Cash Money side. But, you know, it's funny, I mean, when I did this story and I reached out to all these folks, you know, what I got was like a no comment, which says to me that, you know, things have been settled up and they kind of don't want to get into it anymore. Right. Or maybe there was an NDA involved. But yeah, a lot, a lot of smoke. A lot of smoke in that area, for sure. 

[00:14:42] Dan: Yeah, the NDAs are key. I remember there was one of the people that I had mentioned earlier that I was going to have on the podcast of Trapital, the interview timing didn't work out, but that was one of the first things they said. If you have any questions for us about Birdman and his relationship with this artist or anything like that. No, we're not answering it. And I was just like, all right, noted. Like, and I feel like that's kind of RANE with a lot of this, but I think they and Birdman and Slim specifically in an odd way. It wasn't even just to them alone. I feel like there was this ethos of, you could almost put Suge Knight into this same category as well, but these people that were cut throat with business folks that they were doing major deals with, whether it was Suge Knight with the folks at Interscope or Birdman with Universal, I'm like, Hey, I'm gonna take what's mine. And rightfully so. They kept ownership over what worked for them and they did that, but they kept that same energy with a lot of the people that like worked with them on the other side too. And that's the piece of it that while it was frustrating to see there are actually some other sides of this too, because even the fact that I think we can get into it in a little bit, but just some of the artists, they were able to sign how they went about that. As frustrating as it was about them not paying artists, like there not every aspect of the business was and is predatory. So that's one thing that you know started to come up more and more as once you get past the salacious parts of the details and stuff, you're like, okay, no and no different than why you went down there to report them. Right. There is nuance and there are a number of things to dive into. For sure, for sure. So shifting here, one of the other things that I've thought about, we talked a little bit about what set Cash Money apart. We talked a bunch about the backstory and the bad rep, but the next thing up here is about Cash Money itself and whether or not you think that it succeeded cause of Birdman and Slim or it succeeded despite them. So thinking about this hypothetical world, if it even is possible, other folks that would've had this label in their hands and what things would've looked like, what's your take there? If we're really isolating them as business leaders.

[00:16:52] Zack: I absolutely think it succeeded because of them. I mean, did they get in their own way some of the time? Absolutely. But I think, you know, anybody who can run a business that goes from like the early nineties in an informal economy, you know, in like the Louisiana area to being this global thing, to this day that is still, you know, very much at the forefront of an industry. I mean, you know, like they gotta be doing something right. You know, 30 plus years on the staying relevant and, you know, from like the early days Hot Boys to like the late nineties and, you know, remember Big Timers and Oh yeah. Still flying, all that, you know, heyday as we were alluding to, and sort of like the late s apparently, you know, 2010s, you know, of Cash Money, Young Money with Nikki and Drake and Wayne. Even coming through to, you know, to you to say Scorp. I mean, that's a really long run of relevance and you know, have that, I mean, yeah, like I said, they gotta be doing something 

[00:17:53] Dan: Right. Yeah. I think it's because of them too. I will. Because as much as there are issues, and we've talked about a lot of them here, There's so much of this that would've succeeded with folks, other folks in charge, because there are a lot of record labels from the South that tried to do what Cash Money did as well. And a lot of them came and then most of them went. And the fact that we're having this conversation and not having it about them is part of it. And a lot of those record labels had talented people as well, but things just didn't carry over. They may have taken, you know, a bigger deal to get more money upfront, but then the hypothetical is, let's say it was in the hands of someone else that wouldn't have been able to push it forward, then it becomes part of the Island Def Jam conglomerate and then just kind of gets mixed and mixed. And then it becomes one of the many labels that you hear about where it's like, oh yeah, whatever happened to this one or that one. And I think it took what could have been easily, because there would've been enough meat on the bone if we just talked about Cash Money from the early nineties up until, let's say the mid two thousands. Right. And I think that's, inflection point that we can talk about in a little bit. Even that itself was a great run itself. And then you look at the second half of the career from like the mid two thousands on, that's a whole other historic record label. They have two of those under the same house. I think it's because of them and as much as it can be frustrating to hear and see and, you know, unlikely there's some critical things. But let's jump into that now though, because I think one of the questions we have here is the biggest signing that this record label has had. What do you think is the biggest signing for Cash Money?


[00:19:29] Zack: Oh man. You know, I think probably easy answer is Drake, but you know, I would actually say Lil Wayne because if you don't have Wayne, I don't think the Drake thing happens, you know, and really Lil Wayne from such a young age going all the way back to the hot boys and, and you know, coming through. All those Carter albums, you know, like he's the backbone of this whole operation, you know, musically, sonically. And I think without him you don't get everything else that comes along. What do you think?

[00:19:58] Dan: Yeah, it's Wayne too. That's who I have. I know that Drake is the highest commercial artist. If you were to look at all of the numbers and I think without him, the past decade would've looked very different. But we would still be having this conversation in some form. Likely if it wasn't for the past decade of Drake, it may be a bit more truncated. But we may not be having this conversation at all if it wasn't for Wayne. So I think it has to be Wayne there. What do you think is the best business move for Cash Money?

[00:20:29] Zack: You know, I'm gonna go back to that first deal that they struck with Universal. I was in the early nineties at Wendy Day, who he mentioned earlier. It was sort of like a go be who helped, you know, really get them, you know, kind of set up properly with this deal. But you know, they negotiated it and they wouldn't take anything less than something that they felt was an incredible deal. And, I remember the story that Slim told me as they went in, they sat down some mid-level executive at Universal and low-balled them to straight up buy half the company. And so he and Birdman just got up to leave. Then Doug Morris walks in and he was the head of Universal at the time. Comes in with another colleague, Mel Lo winter and Slim members, you know, Doug saying, Hey, if I were you, I wouldn't sell my company. He comes in and offers him 30 million advance just for the privilege of doing business. And, what does Universal get a 7% distribution fee, which is not a lot. So kind of almost doesn't make sense from Universal's perspective unless you think about it in terms of market share. Market share is so important when you're the biggest record label because there are all these great things that happen when you have the most market share. There are all kinds of rights that are assigned based on market share. Like anytime there's, you know, a mislabeled song that gets played or gets spun,and this happens a lot, the metadata in music is a disaster. So if, you know, there are these huge pops of sort of like unresolved money and you know, what they eventually do is they get resolved down by market sharing. So if you're Universal, you know, you get the land share of that and there's a lot of other things, a lot of other places where calculations are done based on market share. You can also brag and say that you're the biggest stuff like that. So, you know, certainly it was worth it for Universal to come in and especially, you know, you think about at the time, You know, hip hop was still at a nascent stage and particularly hip hop in the South was like, not even really on the map for Universal to be able to come in and have this connection was really great for them. But, yeah, I mean, what a great deal. 30 million bucks. You don't have to give up anything. You just give, you know, just give a distribution fee and frankly, you would want your stuff to be distributed by this, you know, enormous record label anyway, so that you could expand and get bigger and better. So I think hands down, that's it. You know, that didn't stop, that there were rumors, you know, that they were even bootlegging their own music, like out the back or wherever, so that they didn't have to pay the 7%. But I, you know, I don't know. I mean, that's that talk about, you know, efficient business. But, you know, I think you go back to that deal that kind of laid the groundwork. Cause if they had given up half of their company way back then, I mean, you see what happened, Jay-Z he up, you know, a huge chunk of Rockefeller early on and. And I think was never really that incentivized, you know, to make that his main thing anymore because, you know, he'd given up such a big chunk early on.

[00:23:29] Dan: Yeah, it's one of the best deals we've seen in music and one of the best deals we've seen in hip hop over the past 30 years without question. And the fact that they were able to get everything you mentioned, plus 2 million advance for three years. They kept ownership of the Masters too. And that's the thing that, as we talked about, Birdman and Slim are still collecting on that year after year. So it's up there. It's incredible. And I know that there were other labels that tried to do the same, but just couldn't. I think part of the reason is that this goes back to them focusing odd, what works for them. They had a unique sound. Universal saw this as their entryway to the south in an authentic way because back then, you know, the south was still vying for dominance. And I know that, you know, things were happening at LaFace, but this was different. The New Orleans sound was different from what was happening in Atlanta at the moment. And this gave you an entry path into that. So it was big time. 

[00:24:27] Zack: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, I think, you know, also 30 million back then, I mean, probably more like 50, 60 million when you talk about inflation. But you know, I would, to our earlier point, you know, did Cash Money succeed? You know, or despite Slim and Birdman, you know, that's situation where, you know, obviously I wasn't there and there wasn't a video of it, but, you know, when you sit down with Slim and Birdman, like you can get the sense that it would be tough to negotiate with that.You know? I mean, Slim's sitting there, he's like 10 feet tall. He doesn't really talk very much, you know, and Birdman, he can get pretty loquacious, but like, uh, he, you know, when he wants to, you know, be kind of stone based, you know, I mean, he can, he can have a great poker face. So I think, you know, if you're some executive, you're going in and you're trying to get them to sell, and they have really no incentive to sell, and they're sitting. Just like, Nope, we're good. You know? I think that that leads you to offer them some crazy deal, like the one that Universal offered and so I really would chocolate up to some very good negotiating, on their part as well. 

[00:25:31] Dan: Yeah. You need to be able to negotiate to pull off hip hop's Louisiana purchase. Got to at least one half. Absolutely. At least one half of it. Yeah. So, yeah. The other thing that I did have was a dark horse move and a move that doesn't get talked about as much, and as much as that move does get focused on the one dark horse that I did have is the, well, I guess too, but let me focus on this one. I would say that the mixtape strategy that they had with Lil Wayne in the mid to late two thousands, even though cash money had ownership of the music, even though this, I think that worked so well. One of the questions that we have is just how well did this company record label transition from different stages of music, whether it was from the CD era, ringtones or ringtones, to streaming it, Cash Money knocked it out of the park. With each of their albums sold, especially when they did this deal at the height of the CD era, when the music industry was struggling in the mid two thousands and they were trying to get people to buy CDs. They were just like, Hey, let's give away the music for free. And Wayne was rapping over other beats. He was in his bag more than anyone, and from dedications to Drought, all of those, just so many classics in there that I think real Hip Hop fans and folks that were following Wayne were following even more so than the next album. So all of that speaks. Lil Wayne being able to sell over a million albums in the first week when the Carter three drops in 2008, which is still a very tough time for CD sales to even happen. So that whole run and just the thought to do that. And granted, I think some of this may have been a bit more on Lil Wayne's push himself, especially because at that point he had his own young money imprint. But all of this is happening and you know, Birdman and Slim had a problem with it. They could have said no. But I think the fact that they leaned into the change that was happening, you already saw what 50 Cent did with his mixtapes in the mid two thousands. You get drama, you get the other folks in the south to be able to help make this happen. And I think it worked out well for them.

[00:27:34] Zack: Yeah, absolutely. That's a really good point too. So, you know, I mean, I guess when you have a label that has been that successful, that long, Yeah, there should be a couple different options for what the best move was. Yeah, I like that as a sleeper pick. 

[00:27:47] Dan: Yeah. And Lollipop is the best selling ringtone of all time too. over 5 million ringtones sold, and I mean, ringtones, were selling for like three bucks each to that point. So I mean 15 million just from folks wanting to, you know, have, you know, that little jingle on there, Motorola razors or whatever the hell people were using at that point. But, what was your dark horse? Oh 

[00:28:10] Zack: Oh man, that's a really good question. I don't know. I mean, I guess it was just so clearly the Universal deal to me. But, you know, and Drake wouldn't really be considered a dark horse candidate, I guess you could say. As time went on, you know, some of the subsequent deals that they worked out with Universal, you know, maybe some of the deals where they were able to get Universal to tackle some of the back office stuff. I mean, it's very unsexy, but you know, that's clearly an area where they needed to improve. So, let's say,to give us some cash in terms of like higher distribution fee in order to have Universal, you know, cover some of this stuff. It's kinda like a boring, dark horse candidate. But you know, I mean, you could say that that's probably useful in terms of buttoning things up and you know, there was a lot of smoke, like we said, but you know, nothing ever, like the house never burned down. So, you know, maybe, maybe those kinds of arrangements really kind of help prevent something like that from happening.

[00:29:03] Dan: And I think that back office piece also just makes me think about the broader partnership and the expertise that they were able to lean on. And a question that I actually didn't explore, but now I'm thinking more about it, is how different do we think that the Universal partnership would've been, let's say Cash Money had partnered with another label under the Universal umbrella? Because obviously part of this is very close. There was Universal Republic at the time and they've been hand in hand working with Monte and Avery Lipman ever since, and they are two of the most highly regarded executives in the game that have now being, year after year after year, the label with the number one market share. And part of that is because of Cash Money itself, but it's also because of all the other stars, even outside of that label, they have been able to bring it to, as opposed to many of the other labels in the Universal Umbrella or the umbrella of Universal Music group labels that have not had that consistency. So I also think there's a dynamic there where, let's say there's another world where cash money was under capital or cash money was under some of these other labels that have struggled to stay relevant, what that would've looked like.

[00:30:10] Zack: Yeah. I mean, I think if you, if you kind of need to go back to Def Jam, you know, some of the back and forth that Def Jam has had over the years. It gives you an idea of, or even as like a top label, the kind of trials and tribulations you might go under. But you know, when you're coming in, you know, going directly to Doug Morris, you know that that gives you a lot of leeway, a lot of leverage. You got that line straight to the top. And, you know, even with somebody like Jay, it took him, it wasn't until, you know, I don't know, when he was dealing directly with Doug Morris, when Doug, this is, I think around the time of Blueprint three, and Jay had that line. I gave Doug a grip. I lost the flip for five stacks. He could have the album. They bet 10 million on a coin flip and like, you know, one way or the other. So, you know, but Birdman we're doing that like, you know, 15 years earlier, having that kind of direct line. So, you know, again, I think going straight to serve them incredibly well.

[00:31:09] Dan: Definitely. Yeah. Another, another piece too. So, two other, like sonically three other dark horse candidates, I'll bring 'em, but they're all under the same thing, was Bird Man's ability to win bid wars and win huge bidding wars, I think is an underrated piece of this record label. So I'll bring up three of them. First one, go back to 2004. So this is around the time thatCarter came out and Wayne was considering to leave Def Jam, and this was around the time that Jay-Z had just became president and Jay-Z pushed hard, make that happen and couldn't leave cash money for Def Jam. That was the thought, right?

[00:31:43] Zack: Yeah. Yeah. Carter boys, and there were all these, you know, kind of …

[00:31:49] Dan: Yeah, they're trying to push the whole Carter board thing and yeah, Birdman was like, all right, come through. I'll give you your own imprint and you are the president of that imprint and let's continue this thing. And that obviously sets up young money and then the next 15 years after that, right. So he does that. Yeah. And I think that's huge because then that sets the stage for the bidding war for Drake, because Drake drops so far gone beginning of 2009. And this is like, you know, everyone is trying to, it's like when Yaba sweepstakes we're seeing in the NBA right now everyone wants this person and everyone is going after them. I mean, truly Greenwall Lior, everyone was trying to get 'em. And it was that connection that Drake had with Cortez, Brian and Jay Prince Ja Prince and that whole crew that I think eventually helped keep him on the cash money roster there. So that was a huge one. And I think we saw something similar with Nicki Minaj as well. A couple months later. Everyone wanted her to beat me up. Scotty the mixtapes were hot and he and Wayne, Wayne was like, no, I want her to be the, the first lady of the label. That was the whole thing in the two thousands, right? Everyone wanted to have the first lady. You saw it in the nineties, right? But like everyone wanted to declare and elevate this person and rightfully so, but like that's who we had. And then we obviously saw the beginning and the middle part of that next decade. Just go on one of the all-time runs. So Bird Band's ability to win against the biggest people in the industry for record label that his men, you know, his brother own is really impressive for sure.

[00:33:21] Zack: And you know, it served Lil Wayne well in the end because Young Money became something that he was able to sell for, you know, about a hundred million dollars for his stake later on too. So, you know, keeping that ownership as opposed to just chasing the biggest advance time and time again we see in hip hop. You know, it's so important. But, you know, I was thinking the other night, it is funny, like everyone has watched New Jack City, and it had been ages, ages, ages. And if they reminded me, I mean, how much of the whole Young Money, Cash Money situation is modeled after elements of that movie. I mean, even just like, The name Cash Money or C M B Y M C M B. The shirts, like the shirts, are incredibly similar that, you know, a lot of the lines, even the Carter, you know, the albums are named. I mean, the Carter was the building, you know, where Wesley Stein's character was like running this whole operation you know, that's kind of like another interesting element to the whole, you know, to the whole narrative. Like, you know, these guys coming out of Louisiana, you know, had their eyes up on this very New York kind of, you know, almost role model, for a business. And, you know, they had been hustlers. They were kind of modeling themselves after these, you know, fictional hustlers in New York and, you know, and then in a way out hustled sort of like the New York record label establishment. So I thought that was kind of an interesting, you know, little side bit of color to the whole story. And, like a bit of irony as well, you know, when you talk about, South versus, New York kind of situation too. 

[00:34:59] Dan: And I think that also speaks to some of that mentality too, because here you have Birdman that was getting inspiration from a black crime movie. And I think a lot of the ways of him doing business are very much central on, okay, I wanna support and uplift the black community, do what I can here and grid. And I think, you know, part of how he was able to do that has, you know, been quite controversial just with certain artists he's had on. Yeah. But still, I think that ethos stems back from ownership in trying to keep things in-house as much as you can. And it took them a lot to even partner with other artists from other parts of the countries and stuff like that, that I think you saw with Dino Brown and how he was in that movie and how he carried versus I think someone like Jay-Z who record label Rockefeller named after one of the great white business magnets that you had in this country. Right. And so many Jay-Z bars, whether it's Black Axl, Rose Black, Kirk Cobain called me this. I feel like, you know, people always get on Kanye for some of that. Like always trying to like be okay. I'm, you know, the black version of whatever X person. But I think Jay-Z, you know, also had a lot of that too. And then I think also looking at his business mentality, a lot of his success came from his huge and lucrative partnerships with established companies in this space. So the inspiration I think also became kind of telltale sign for the type of businesses these types of folks ended up creating too. 

[00:36:23] Zack: Yeah. And you know, I mean, you know, brown was a really ruthless character. And you know, I think there's like the money and the success that's glamorized. But you know, it's a gritty movie. I mean it seems like he is not a likable guy in the end. You know, without giving too much of the plot, I'm sure everybody's seen it, but like, I was like, wow. Yeah. I don't know if I'd be wanting to model myself after this dude. You know, he's pretty brutal. But, you know, even on the, you know, kind of the lighter side, there's a scene where he's like giving out turkeys at Thanksgiving. Yep. And you know, the Cash Money guys always give out turkeys in New Orleans at Thanksgiving and I wonder if they got that directly from the movie. You know, cuz so many of you know, from the Carter. You know, the c n b kind of, kind of like whole, you know, ethos there. I wonder how much of that they just pulled directly from the movie, so…

[00:37:16] Dan: Oh, yeah. I could definitely see that mentality too. And speaking about it, you know, full circle. I could also see Birdman having a bit of that cancel that bitch mentality too, in short situations.

[00:37:28] Zack: Right, right, right, right. Exactly. So, yeah, I mean, and they won't talk about that part of it, the interviews maybe, but you kind of get the sense of like that's where the negotiation and the cash element of the Cash Money comes in. Yeah. 

[00:37:42] Dan: The aita literally held people over the balcony of a building to get what he wanted. Right. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of that came through to fruition. But next category up here. So missed opportunity. Is there anything that you look at that you're like, man, obviously it's an overall successful company. Is there anything you look back on about what if they did this differently or what if they did that differently?

[00:38:02] Zack: I think the number one thing I wonder is what if they had sold the whole thing, you know? A year and a half ago, could they have gotten just an insane multiple? I mean, you know, you're seeing like Springsteen staying and all these guys getting hundreds of millions of dollars for their catalogs. So, you know, I get it. And there's, you know, catalogs, hip hop catalogs are valued differently from rock catalogs. And also one of the benefits of rock catalogs is they're usually, you know, written and owned by, you know, all the rights are with the band. There's not like a million different producers coming in. It's not as complicated. So like, you know, they can sell the whole thing, you know, a hundred percent of the rights and you don't have to, you know, it's not like you're just buying like, you know, I don't know, 30% of this and 50% of that and whatever. It's, it's not this complex web, let's say there may not be as many things that haven't been papered over as there were with Cash Money, but man, you know, there were some pretty insane, numbers flying around and I really wonder if, you know, if they had, been applying some of, you know, 20 or 30 x multiple. To whatever they were pulling in, you know, which is, you know, they can just sit there and make, you know, tens of millions of dollars a year, just off of this catalog. I mean, so what would the market have been if they had went and sold the whole thing at the peak of the catalog? Boom. That's what I really wonder. 

[00:39:21] Dan: That's a good one. So I guess some high level back of the envelope math on that. So let's say that the peak of the catalog boom was like December, 2020 maybe, and then like, you know, into the spring of 2021 and we definitely saw some 30 x multiples there and at least the last public number I saw, and I think you had this in one of your latest articles as well, but that Cash Money's Masters generated around 30 million annually, or 20 to 30 million. Was that the number?

[00:39:49] Zack: Yeah, I think it was at least 30. And you know, cuz Bird, like most of hey Birdman, you know, has been making like close to 20 million a year, for a while, give or take. And you know, most of that is just, you know, the catalog. So yeah, I mean that's just his cut. And then if you figure you double that for Slim, yeah, probably, you know, it was around 30, 35, something like that, so, you know. Yeah. I mean, are they gonna get a 30 x value even at the peak? I don't think so because just hip hop wasn't getting that kind of valuation. I don't really understand that because everybody's like, oh, rock and roll music gonna stand the test of time. It's like if you ask the average 20 year old who Bruce Springsteen is, they're not gonna know. I mean, so I would argue that hip hop is actually gonna be more valuable down the line. But just the valuation, you know, that's not what people have been paying for. So even at the peak, you know, I, I don't know that I saw any valuations anywhere near 30. I think Kanye was shopping his catalog at one point and wanted a 30 x multiple, but, you know, didn't get any bites. So I think it comes down to like, yeah, what kind of multiple could they actually have gotten? 

[00:40:56] Dan: Yeah, because even more recently, so yeah, we're recording this now. January, 2023, there was a report that just came out about Dr. Dre selling a collection of music assets that I believe are worth different multiples. But the number that I heard from that was, They generate around 10 million per year and that he wanted 250 and he's getting just over 200 million or somewhere between that. So that's around a 20 x multiple for a deal. That sounds like it was still coming underway in 2022. So if you were to put that multiple on, let's call it 35 million for maybe what Birdman and Slim have collectively, then that is you're talking $700 million. So that's a pretty sizable number, not a billion. But maybe if there are some concerns about, maybe there's a bit more of a split of who owns what. We didn't even talk about publishing right now, but there may be a split too, especially if everything was captured. and even thinking about quality control, for instance, and I think they got around 400 million, 300, got 400 million, but this was last year. So I would assume that 500 to 750 sounds, if I heard a number there, I would be like, sounds about right. If I heard a number lower than that or higher than that, I would probably be surprised one way or the other. 

[00:42:15] Zack: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think that makes sense. And it's not just one artist, you know, obviously it's a whole bunch of artists and a bunch of pieces of different artists. But I think another thing, and this is maybe one of the reasons why the hip-hop valuations are lower, is like when you have all those producers, it might not be as easy to get, you know, to get clearances for using stuff in commercials and that sort of thing. Whereas if you buy a hundred percent of the rights, there's no question. Right. And so I'm not even sure if somebody owned 1% of, of something, whatever. Like I don't think they would have some, like, veto right. About the song being played in a commercial. But, you know, when you start to have so many different parties owning bigger stakes, a particular song, it can get a little convoluted and, you know, I do wonder if that's a big part of it as well.

[00:43:00] Dan: Yeah, no, that's a good point. Yeah. Cuz I think sampling also is a huge piece of that as well. The missed opportunity for me, this is a bit more of a specific one from like a timeframe, not like a specific move, but Birdman and Little Wayne not settling and squashing the beef, the issues that they had in the mid 2010s. I think we lost out on Wayne. I know Wayne was in prison during part of this, but we lost out on his momentum. We lost out on a lot there because I feel like a lot happened from the Carter four coming out in 2011 to the Carter five coming out in 2018. I believe. There was so much back and forth. There was so much drama. You know, Drake was going on his all time run at that point. Nicki was doing the same. And the fact that the signature biggest artist is literally tweeting out, I want off this label, but it's not that easy. Or sending these messages out in the middle of Wayne and Drake having their tours and him still being on albums and trying to figure out how to drop things.

I think it was obviously a great decade in run, but I think it could have been even greater if they were able to solve some of that stuff and figure it out. 

[00:44:11] Zack: Yeah, a hundred percent, you know, that that was like, it's a long time to be going between, proper albums, you know, so, and I think that was a really interesting time in the music business. And, I mean, the music business changed completely right from, from 2011 to 2018 from being, you know, oh, this new streaming thing is gonna be important to like, you know, it is the entire business basically. So, you know, and I think that an artist like Wayne, you know, as somebody whose music translates really well to, you know, to that medium. And, you know, as we know, hip hop is a monster on streaming and, you know, tends to do really well. So I would've been really curious to see if he had been able to continue that momentum, you know, just how much bigger he could have gotten in that period of time too.

[00:44:57] Dan: Yeah, definitely. The next piece we add too, I think we talked a little bit about this just in terms of how did the label handle the transitions? And I think you just mentioned it there. They were able to do a lot of it well, especially the mixed day piece and the ring toes. And then I think a lot of it laid the work for streaming and Drake is streaming, did a lot of that, the Cash Money labels. So I think that worked. But this next question is interesting though, because it's been around three years, I think it's been at least three years since you did your deep story, the Forbes cover story on Cash Money, where you went down and interviewed them. And then I know it's been four years since I had written a piece around the time that Drake had completed Scorpion and we knew that it was going to be, or at least I thought the future may be bleak. And I think the question that you pose into the piece was, can they strike platinum again? It's been three years since now. What do you think? 

[00:45:48] Zack: You know, I don't know. I mean, the rules for platinum, like what constitutes platinum have changed so much that, you know, all it takes is, you get, you know, one hot signing and they do really well on streaming and suddenly you have a platinum whatever. And, you know, it's like, okay, I think that, you know, Drake is gone. Wayne is gone. When I went down there, they were really big on blue face and Jack Reese, you know, I don't know what either of them are turning out to be like, I mean anywhere near Drake, Nikki, Wayne, et cetera. Jack Reese is the king of R&B though, right? That was the whole thing too. So what I'm gonna go with, no, I don't think they will begin Drake Platinum. But I would caveat that by saying it doesn't matter because they can just sit back, and collect these checks. And that's gonna happen. That'll happen even if, you know Drake and Nikki and Wayne retire. I mean, their back catalog stuff is still gonna be a gold mine. And you know, when I was down there, what they said was that they're forever in business with Drake. But they wouldn't get more specific. And so what I took that to mean was, you know, at the time, you know, he was kind of an ex extra kidding himself. But even once he's gone, they're still sitting on these, you know, their share of the copyrights that will be, you know, Drake is a streaming king and they have a big piece of that. So, yeah. Do I think they'll strike platinum again? You know, probably not, but I don't really think it matters. I don't think so, what are they gonna do? Like what are they gonna do? They're gonna sit back and collect those checks. Yeah. 

[00:47:26] Dan: Yeah. I came to the same spot as well. I guess platinum in the purest sense of having a chart hit. Sure. There could be a legacy hit that gets, you know, some viral thing on TikTok and then that becomes a hit. Like, I don't know, I don't know if I like slow motion singles, like juvenile when platinum, but I feel like that's the type of song I could see go viral and some TikTok thing and then bring new, that's one of my cat favorite Cash Money songs. And I feel like I could see something like that happen. But I feel like you were kind of posing it more so in the moment of looking at these runs of like late two thousand, late nineties, early two thousands, that Cash Money is like a platinum moment or mid two thousands. Wayne's mixtape ran late two thousands, early 2010 or to mid 2010s. Young Money rises to the highest of heights. I don't think we'll see that moment again. And it's crazy cuz I think there’s times where maybe things could have happened. You had the rich gang moment where he looked like he was so close with Young Thug. And I feel like especially in 2014, people expected Thug to go on to that superstar level and still be very successful. But I think that the stock for Thug at that moment was a little higher than it may be actually reached. And I think some of Thug's proteges kind of reached the heights that we thought Thug would've reached at one point, just in terms of a commercial success perspective. But it just never quite happened. But again, they own this. It's not like they missed some opportunity. This is something that is literally generating tens of millions per year and that's not changing anytime soon.

[00:48:54] Zack: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, it's funny, they have, I guess just to sort of like switch gears a tiny bit, but you know, last moment when they said when Birdman and some said they're forever in business with Drake. It wasn't in Miami, but I met with them for some follow-up questions in New York. and they have, like within Universal's building in Midtown, they have a Cash Money conference route. Like there are actually these, I mean I don't think it's diamond play, but the door handles are giant dollar signs, like the Cash Money logo. And, and it looks like they're diamonds in the dollar sign and whatever it is. But, you open up the thing and you go in and there's like all these plaques on the wall and it's just a conference room that's always there. And it's sort of like their designated conference room when they, when they cut the tat. And I remember, yeah, we sat down in that conference room and I really tried to press them on the Drake thing. And I mean, if you dig up the Forbes story, we did a video too. And there's this great kind of tense moment where I'm like really kind of pushing them about it and they're like, we're forever in this with Drake. And like, that's it. And it's clear that's all you're gonna get out of that. But, you know, so, in terms of striking platinum again, yeah, I mean, I could almost envision a scenario where Drake like does the Super Bowl and he plays some, you know, catalog hit that never went platinum. And just purely by the exposure of people hearing it be like, oh man, listen that again, it just suddenly goes platinum again. You know, or for the first time. But yeah, short of that, I know I'm gonna agree with you. I think probably not again, but that it doesn't matter anyway. 

[00:50:32] Dan: Yeah. So we have a couple questions left here. This one, and I think it's maybe similar to the fourth you're bringing up, but if you were in Birdman and Slim's shoes today, is there anything that you would be doing differently?

[00:50:44] Zack: You know what, I think I go back to that question of like, would you sell the whole thing? Especially if the prospects are kind of dimming a bit and, you know, it's like, I don't know though. I mean, you know, it's like if you're getting up there in age, like would you sell you, you know, you got this great house that you bought, you know, you got this great penthouse apartment in New York that you bought. For like, you know, a hundred thousand dollars in, you know, 1982. And, you could probably get, you know, I don't know, 10 million bucks for it. And then you could just like rent and do whatever you want and you know, for the rest of your life. But like, you don't really need the money. Like, you're fine as it is, like you sell it. Like what would you even do with the money that you got? You really love living in that apartment. Maybe you just stay. And I think that's kind of the point. Like, just remember being in the studio with Birdman and he doesn't need to be doing this. Like, he doesn't need to be running around with Jack in Miami trying to make him the, the king of r&b or whatever. But he truly loves it. Like you, you can tell that he's passionate about it and. After the interview was over, and I wish I had this on tape, but we're just like a dozen of us sitting there in the room. And, Birdman, he goes, Zack, why do people think I'm scary? And I remember he said, he was like, really pointy moment. He's like, I'm respectful. You know, I'm not a clown. I don't turn tables over. I don't scream and yell. I'm respectful. Why are people so afraid of me? And I thought for a minute and I said, you know, as like, look man, like, to be honest, I think the base tattoos really are kind of like off putting some people who are not used to that sort of thing. And, he was like, yeah, I've been thinking of getting them removed. You know, I think it'd be better for business. So, you know, it's like there's still this element of, you know, even though he's made it and he's got everything he wants, there's still this part of him that came from a different world. That, you know, he's kind of like still stuck between two worlds, between the world that he came up in and the world that he can afford to live in. And, I think, you know, where he feels at his best is in the studio. So why would you sell that whole thing? Why would you, you know, I mean, why would you kind of give that up? And I think Slim likes it too. And you know, they have this really funny relationship and, you know, Birdman's in the studio and Slim does live the business. And that's kind of the breakdown of it. And I just remember, like after this interview, you know, after leaving the studio, I went and we were all supposed to have dinner together and I went off with Slim and we waited for like a half an hour in the parking lot for Birdman. And he just never showed up. And then we went to dinner and he just never showed up. And it's cuz he wanted to stay in.He just stayed in the studio all freaking night. Cuz that's what he really loves. So, yeah, I guess it's a long way of saying, what would I do if I were them? I mean, you know, probably like the financial advisor advice would be. Sell this big thing and then you're totally set for the rest of your life. But you know, if it's throwing off enough, more than enough money, tens of millions of dollars every year for you to live on, what's the point? You know, why not just do that and do what makes you happy?

[00:53:59] Dan: I think that's a piece that often gets for guys and understands what some of this stuff is, that some people really just love the craft. It makes me think too about someone like Martin Scorsese or Steven Spielberg and these directors that are now in their seventies or eighties, they're not doing these movies to try to make more money. Well, granted, yes, I think they're bought into the financial success. They want fair terms. But this is what they enjoy doing. They've been doing it since they were kids and they wanna just find outlets to be able to do this in the best way possible. And I think the same could be said about Birdman of wanting to be in the studio and just wanting to have that energy. And if you sell that, then what do you do? I think especially for someone like him that's stuck to the thing that he does well. And you know, like he isn't out here like Jay-Z trying to be mogul in the sense of having different things. I mean, there's a mogul aspect in terms of media ownership, but not in the sense of like, yes, I own this, I do this, I do that as well. Sure. Maybe there's some smaller things that are in the, you know, new Orleans or, or the Louisiana area, but not in that same way. So I do think that speaks a lot to that. 

[00:55:06] Zack: Yeah. And I think they have dabbled in other stuff for sure. And you know, real estate, and I think there was some period of time where they had like some oil rigs or something like that.They had a vodka called G T V. They were trying to really build up Y M C M B as like, as a clothing line type of thing, rather than just merch. But, you know, none of that really kind of like ever went viral in the way that any of their artists did. So, you know, and maybe because it was that they just didn't have the passion for it that they have for music. Like that example of Birdman. So, you know, Jay clearly has the passion for the business. He clearly has the passion for, you know, doing the champagne thing or, you know, doing the VC thing. And you can tell cuz he's out there doing it. He’s doing it cuz he loves it, and he makes money. But, I think it's hard for something to do well if you aren't truly passionate. Because consumers can kind of see through that. And also, you're not gonna go the extra mile for something if you don't truly care about it either. Definitely. 

[00:56:08] Dan: Definitely. And mine is a little different. And this may be more so from a selfish perspective of what I would do, but that's part of the question, right? Yeah. As someone that is such a fan of the vibe and the culture that they were able to create, I want to be able to relive that in different ways. I wish that Birdman and the team could patch things up and there could be a true Cash Money reunion tour that goes across the country. I know there's been different things here or there, but the same way that Didat did the Big Bad Boy Arena tour in 2016. I wanna be able to see that. I'd love to be able to do that. And I also wanna see a music biopic and the same style and the same budget and energy of Straight Outta Compton. I would love to see that about the Cash Money story. And to be honest, I feel like, I know there's a lot of energy around these biopics, but like I may be biased because it's the genre I like since Street Outta Compton came out, I just haven't seen one that's, you know, as good as that. And sometimes it's a bit frustrating when I see movies like Bohemian Rhapsody or Elvis, which I think they're fine, but I don't think they're as good as Straight Outta Compton and they're getting all these awards and stuff. And it makes me think that okay, I don't know whether it'll get Gary Gray back again or someone that can, you know, tell this story in a great way. I would love to see that unfold, but I think you would also need buy-in from the artist because obviously the fact that the relationships are straight can make some of this tough. And the willingness to tell the story in an honest way and the fact that there's kind of two sides to everything. Is Birdman gonna be bought in if he and his brother are being shown as, you know, like predatory loan sharks, like screwed people over. Right. Are the artists gonna be happy if it's making it seem too favorable to Birdman? So I know there's some contentions with how the story is told, but it's still something I would love to see done in the right way. 

[00:57:56] Zack: Yeah. Not to mention, how would you clear all the music, you know, how would you handle that? Although maybe now it's a little bit more streamlined, but you know, again, you know, a lot of different cooks in the kitchen there, so you never know. But yeah, no, I'd love to see that too. Oh man. That people asked. 

[00:58:13] Dan: All right, so last question here. Who won? If there's one person, artist, executive from Cash Money, who would you say is the winner of everything that's happened over the past 30 plus years?

[00:58:24] Zack: You know, I think there's a lot of winners, a lot of losers, A lot of you get kind of a little bit of both, but I'm gonna go with Slim, you know, I mean, Slim has been in the background, like Birdman has gotten some more of the glory, but he is also taken a lot more of the heat. I mean, he has taken basically all the heat, I think, and Slim has managed to just sit back, run this like incredible business and make just a boatload of money without taking some of the heat that his brother did. So, yeah, I'm gonna go with Slim. How about that? I wanna know, what do you think? I like that answer. 

[00:58:57] Dan: I'm glad you said that. Yeah, because I think it would be both, but Birdman is my answer. The bidding wars that he won over the years. The ruthlessness of just getting the deals done, staying true to what he knows. There's a lot that I disagree with, and there's a lot that I wish that he had done differently and a bunch of missed opportunities, but they did something that we have not seen done in hip hop before, and we may not see that again, just because of how things have changed and evolved over time. So it really is a credit to that happening. So yeah, I love the Slim take too, because the fact that he reaps the rewards without, you know, any of the backlash. Like I've never seen anyone tweet or get frustrated about like, oh yeah, you know, Slim's really screwing these artists over. Slim's really doing this. You know what I mean? It's always a photoable Birdman, you know, like, right. But yeah. Oh man. Such a fascinating label. Yeah. Before we close things out, any final thoughts on Cash Money records? 

[00:59:57] Zack: Well, you know, I wouldn't say also, About Slim. You know, there's this, somebody had a great quote. It was some writer and they, it was some famous writer, and they said, a writer's fame is the best fame because you are not famous enough to get bothered on the street, but you are famous enough to get a good table at a good restaurant. And, you know, in a way, I think that's, that's kind of what Slim was able to do. Like, he could get, you know, what, whatever he wants, he could have, but nobody's kind of bothering him about it. And I think that's how he wants it. And, you know, Birdman, whatever he wants, he could have sort of, but what he can't do is walk outside without, you know, everybody harassing him, you know? So, you know, I think that to some extent he's more interested in the spotlight. You get the good with the bad. But you know, I think that spotlight it's important, like being able to turn it off is a really great luxury to have to turn it on and off. And, you know, once it's on all the time, you'll never be able to turn it off. So I am going to Slim for that. Yeah, for sure.

[01:01:02] Dan: And Slim also did get memes made out of him from telling Charlamagne off of the Breakfast Club, either or that too.

[01:01:08] Zack: Yeah. Or the Birdman hand rub. 

[01:01:11] Dan: Is that the Birdman hand rub? Yeah, the No clap though. I mean, I need to put on that though, but man, what a moment. Yeah, yeah. All right. Toasted Cash Money. And this is a fun one. What a fascinating case study. And yeah, we're gonna tell the stories that don't get told elsewhere. So Zack, thank you for coming through and thanks again for this Young Money, Cash Money t-shirt for those folks watching the videos. You can see this is the one last time I was in New York, Zack came through, he was like, I got something for you. And yeah, I had to make it happen. 

[01:01:40] Zack: That's right. I should have worn mine today. But, it was in the laundry. You know. It was in the laundry. . 

[01:01:45] Dan: Oh, yeah, definitely. All right, man. Thank you.

[01:01:48] Zack: Appreciate it. All right. Have a good one. Thanks again. Yep. 

[01:01:51] Dan: All right, cool.

[01:01:53] Dan Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend and post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 3748 no Why Algorithms are Getting Smarter with Ari Herstand https://www.trapital.com/podcast I had a great chat about the future of streaming and more with Ari Herstand, who isan independent artist who also runs Ari’s Take, an education business to teach others artists about the industry. He just released the third edition of his book, How To Make It In the New Music Business. Ari joined me to discuss how artists are navigating new music releases. It's increasingly getting out of the artist’s hands in favor of the uncontrollable algorithms powering the likes of Spotify and TikTok. Ari says it’s like, “playing the lottery.”  While algorithms are taking the human element out of music discovery, that human touch has found itself into new artist monetization tools like NFTs. It has inverted what Ari calls an artist’s “pyramid of investment” for an artist growing their fanbase. Ari and I covered a lot of ground on this episode. Here’s what you can expect to hear from us: [3:10] Waterfall release method infiltrating Spotify [8:15] Music discovery power shifting away from human, toward algorithms  [11:40] DSP’s purposely pulling power away from playlist editors [19:21] TikTok isn’t for every artist [21:26] Evolving team structure of an indie artist  [27:55] Role of music NFTs [31:44] How Sammy Arriaga sold $250k of NFTs to non-fans [40:02] The Pyramid of investment  [49:10] Ari the musician vs. Ari the educator  [50:05] Updated version of How To Make It In New Music Business book Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Ari Herstand, @ariherstand Learn more about Ari's book, How to Make It in the New Music Business here: https://book.aristake.com Learn more about Ari's Take here: https://aristake.com/ This week’s sponsor is Laylo. Join artists like Kodak Black, Sam Smith, and others who notify their fans instantly when they drop merch, tickets, and more. Create your own drop page for free in seconds at laylo.com Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] ARI HERSTAND I'm not a good recording engineer and I'm not a producer. So that's another team member that I'm going to hire when I make a record. Like I'm not Finneas. I'm not going to make a record in my bedroom. Like I can't do that. And that's not what I want to do. Like honestly, that doesn't inspire me. What inspires me is to make music with other people. [00:00:26] DAN RUNCIE INTRO Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:01:36] DAN RUNCIE Today's episode is a playbook for all the indie artists out there. I had a great conversation with Ari Herstand, who is a musician himself, and he's also the founder of Ari's Take, which is his education business that focuses on how artists can make it today, especially indie artists. How indie artists can make it today in the new music business. And that's actually the title of the third edition of this upcoming book. Ari and I talked a lot about some of the new and updated insights that he has in this edition of the book, specifically around streaming, and how artists are starting to favor and prefer focusing on algorithms and how that can get them more listeners and where playlists currently sit with artists prioritizing them. And we also talk about NFTs, TikTok, and Ari's concept in the book called the Pyramid of Investment. This is a great conversation for anyone that wants to better understand the music industry, especially for the growing segment of independent artists that are carving their lanes out for themselves. Here's the episode. Hope you enjoy it. [00:01:48] DAN RUNCIE All right, today we are joined by Ari Herstand, who is the author of his new book that's coming out, how to make it in the new music business. He's an artist himself, and I was lucky enough to be a guest on his podcast a couple months back. So Ari, it's great to have you on. And congrats on the book coming up. [00:02:06] ARI HERSTAND Yeah, thanks, Dan. Thank you. Thank you. Very exciting. The third edition and get ramped up for that. But it's great to be here with you today. Thanks for having me. [00:02:17] DAN RUNCIE Yeah, definitely. And I know for you, one of the big topics of the book is just how artists continue to evolve with how they're releasing music, how they're paying attention to what's going on with streaming right now. I feel like you have a good vantage point for this because you're doing so much of this yourself with your own releases. What are some of the big changes? Because I know that everything post-pandemic has been a little different, and now we're heading into this new phase right now with the new year. What's the big thing for you that you're seeing with the evolution? [00:09:07] ARI HERSTAND Right. So every artist needs to ask themselves what their intentions are with their release. And so, you know, the beautiful thing about the new music business and the scary and daunting thing about the new music business is there really isn't a right or a wrong way to do anything. There is the right and wrong way for you. And that could be the wrong way for me. So everyone, you know, it's based on your intentions and what your goals are for the release. If we just go, you know, more in the mainstream realm or let's just say your intention is to be successful on Spotify. Because that's a metric that most artists these days are kind of using to gauge the success of their release. And they want to have the best chance of, you know, grabbing that Spotify, being being blessed by the Spotify God, I guess. So to do that, there is a very specific release strategy that has been studied and now tested and now used by everyone from Lizzo and Krungman to Maggie Rogers to Robert Glassberg. And that's the waterfall release method. And Indie artists, you know, that are just releasing their first few singles are using this as well. I mean, this is the waterfall release method. And I'll break this down a little bit on what this means. This has started to get used a few years ago, but it really picked up last year in 2022. And now 2023 is I think going to be the year of the waterfall. But basically what it is is that, you know, you release singles leading up to the album. That has been happening for years now. However, here's what gets a little bit more where where it gets a nuance on how those singles are released. It's you don't just release a single song anymore as a single. You release your first single one song. That's just the one song released one second now your second single is that the new song is track number one. And the previous single that you released is track number two. So it's technically your second single, but it's kind of like a two song album. If you really go that way, if you're tuning it up, if you're an artist is to the artist asking this all the time. Well, how do I do this in my district? back end or whatever, like doing it's a two song album. And the way that the streams maintain for the previous single and that you don't lose your playlist inclusion, all that stuff is you use the same highest or C number. And so it's if you use the same highest or C number that used when you released that track, a month prior, it will be identical stream counts. And then a month later, you release your third single, but that's now a three track album. You know track number one is the new single track number two is the single you release a month ago and track number three is the is the single you release two months ago. And as long again, use the same highest or C numbers, it'll be included in the same playlist. They will be identical tracks, wherever they're included on people's algorithm, personal playlists, all that stuff. You can do this. People are doing five or six singles that way. And then the album and this release method, you know, this could take eight months, essentially, if you want to do one single every four to six weeks, and then the album. How you can kind of look at it, is you're building the album. And so it doesn't have to go on order, you can pick whatever order you want based on your singles. And then the final album is the album order, no correlation doesn't have to be the single order, you can pick whatever order you want each time. The track art can be different each time. I've seen it, people do different single art for each release. I've seen people just use the album cover for every release. So you know, at the end, you might have like six singles released that each have a few different songs on them. And then the full album, some people pull those previous singles down. So if they want to get a clean discography going up there, you just have a final album at the end of the day. And the previous singles with like the two song album, a three-song album, the four-song album before they pull those down. But you're not going to lose any playlists, you're not going to lose any stream counts because you're using same iris to scene numbers each time. So that is a release method, and the reason people are doing it this way is for the Spotify algorithm because Spotify likes to have regular releases. And if you send somebody say, hey, here's my new song and you send them the link, they're going to listen to that song. Now, if there's nothing, no other songs following that song to listen to, after your song finishes, Spotify is going to recommend them something to listen to or they're going to jump off and listen to something else. Now, if you give them the songs to listen to that after your previous releases, they'll stick around and keep listening to it. So the reason people are doing this is for the Spotify algorithm, but also to keep their fans engaged. So like say, here's your single number four and they listen to it and like, oh, cool. What now? I'm going to go back to listening to my favorite artist. Unless you have singles three, two, and one also there. And like, oh, I'll just keep listening to the other songs on this essential playlist. You think of it, whatever you want, a four-song album, a four-song single, a playlist of your new singles. However, you want to think of it, the user is just thinking, oh, I'm clicking on this link or new music Friday, or I'm in my release radar. I see this new single come out by this new artist I like. And then Spotify is going to start to recommend those songs through the algorithm. And the best thing about continuing to release the and the waterfall method is like those previous singles stay included in release radar. So this is like what has been figured out by labels and managers and artists over the last few years. And based on what Spotify wants to see and basically what they're being rewarded for with the algorithm from Spotify. And you know, I think a few years ago, everybody was chasing the playlist editors and like, oh my gosh, if I can just get included in the rap caviar, then like I'm set forever. Whatever the playlist inclusion, the editorial playlists are not as powerful right now as the algorithmic playlists are. That is a big change. Is like three, four years ago, people were like, oh, it's all about the official editorial. Now you want to trigger that algorithm because that is now personalizing every single user's playlist based on what Spotify thinks that user likes to hear. And you want to get your songs included in that. And people are just letting Spotify feed them now based on the algorithm versus seeking out playlist [00:09:27] DAN RUNCIE And why do you think that that shift happened from the playlist prioritization to the algorithm? Was it something internal with Spotify or is it just a natural decline in the power of playlist? {00:11:40] ARI HERSTAND Yeah, I mean, the main thing is is let's think about what Spotify's intentions and goals are. Their goals are to keep users on their platform as long as possible. And they've discovered that if you feed users songs that they want to hear and have a higher success rate of them continuing to listen and stay on Spotify, then they're going to follow that. Then Spotify is going to do more of that. So they've been AB in this for years. They're like, OK, do people stick on our platform on Spotify longer by listening to our editorial playlists that human beings employed by Spotify are creating? Or do they stick on our platform longer by the algorithmic playlists that are internal robots are curating for them, the algorithm is curating for them. And what they found is that people are sticking around longer with the algorithmic playlists. So they're now doing more of that and realizing that this is what it is engaging users to stay on Spotify longer, because that's what users prefer. The algorithm has gotten a lot better at learning people's tastes, music tastes, than any singular playlist editor. And the other thing is, when we're talking about indie artists, is that why indie artists need to refocus their efforts into more of the algorithmic lane versus the editor lane, is that playlist editors, I mean, it's like playing the lottery to try to get an official Spotify editorial playlist. For one, with 100,000 songs being uploaded every day, you have a very, very hard chance of getting selected being one of those songs that is going to get included on. The very select few Spotify editorial playlist spots. But the algorithm, there's billions, literally billions of playlists that theoretically that they can put you on, or the algorithm will insert you into various people's radios or discover weekly or whatever. You have a much better chance of getting there. And then if users respond, well, do your song there. I mean, you pop up on someone's discover weekly, and they click save. I like this song. I want to hear more of it, and they don't skip it. That sends signals back to the Spotify algorithm, like, oh, this song is performing well. Let's try it in more algorithmic labels. Let's try it in more radio. Let's try it in more of these. And then theoretically, you'll just get included more and more, and then it'll just kind of snowball onto itself. [00:12:46] DAN RUNCIE Yeah, I think the algorithm getting better, that what you mentioned, is likely one of the big drivers of this, because if I think back to the days of, let's say, like the mid 2010s, the algorithm still felt a bit similar to those old Pandora algorithms where after the seventh song, you start hearing the same thing over and over. And if you're comparing that to, let's say, what Tuma Basa was doing at Rap Caviar at the time that, of course, yeah, I think Tuma is going to be the better curator of what you have. But if you're shifting things to now, where these algorithms just get better and better and better, then, and I think as well, over time, a lot of the playlist also had that alert. There was a bit of the, oh, this is the new radio. This is this, but then, yeah, when the playlist is better and better, even as a Spotify user over time, you can see that, okay, they do have a better sense for where things are. So naturally, it did shift the behavior. And I think you kind of saw this more broadly with, you know, outside of music as well, with movies or TV shows and other things. I think the algorithms do get better over time. [00:16:02] ARI HERSTAND Oh, absolutely. Yes, we're seeing that, you know, absolutely across the board with Netflix and Hulu and Prime and all that stuff. But, I mean, you bring up a good point about, you know, the human and the human playlist editors and what, you know, the power has shifted away from these playlist editors in part because Spotify is pulling the power from that. Because, you know, they're not giving the playlist editors free reign. It's kind of like if we can compare it to, you know, radio stations back on the day that the DJs had the power and they could play whatever they wanted. And that was like, you know, when the 70s and the 80s and maybe even a little bit into the 90s, you know, the DJs could play whatever they wanted. And they were all powerful because that's how people discovered music. Then Clear Channel took over and bought up all the radio stations and was like, oh, guess what? These are the only songs that you're allowed to play now. Here's the list. And then every week Clear Channel would update that list and send the list to all the DJs and say, you can choose, but you have to play these songs. So then the DJs became less powerful because that power was removed away from them by the overlords, which was the owners of the station, which was Clear Channel. The same thing has started to happen on Spotify. The editors used to be the all powerful DJs. They used to be all powerful playlist editors. Now they're overlords, they're owners, Spotify has come to them and be like, well, guess what? Your playlist is not keeping people on this, on Spotify and on the playlist long enough anymore. So you're only allowed to do three new songs a week. And in those three songs don't really perform well, then you're either gonna lose your job or you're not going to have the liberty to choose the song anymore. And of those three songs, they actually have to be from this list, which is the song that have already been pre-tested on the algorithmic side. So it's kind of like we see the same thing as it's like, instead of clear channel dictating the list based on their private marketing rooms and studies with surveys of listeners like they used to do when they would test songs with radio with market groups, now Spotify's testing songs with the algorithm and then they send those songs to the editors and be like, okay, these songs are proven. So when Tua was selecting the song for Rap Caviar, he was at the start of it. But as it got later on and on and what's happening with today's topics with Rap Caviar and all of them, he's just not one person anymore that's shooting. I mean, when Troy Carter was at Spotify and kind of in charge of all this, he said this and this was mind you four or five years ago, this was happening to them. It's like with those big, big playlists, he's like, it's no one person that is deciding this. These songs are tested and then we decide that it was going to go into those big playlists. But now that's happening on every playlist top to bottom. [00:16:25] DAN RUNCIE Right. And circling back to what you had said at the beginning that this, of course, is shifting artists to that focus on how they're releasing music, the waterfall strategy, but tweaking that specifically for what they're doing with singles leading up to the album. But I also have to assume that to a certain extent, some of this does become table stakes in that everyone, as you mentioned, is doing it that knows what they're doing right, whether it's you or it's Lizzo or others. So once that's kind of the lay of the land, are there additional things that, you know, artists that you're at least suggesting that artists should or shouldn't be doing or at that point does become more and more dependent on things that are independent of the release, whether it's the artists fandom, the quality of the music and so on. [00:19:21] ARI HERSTAND Absolutely. And this goes back to the intentions. And so, you know, it's no secret that in 2020, 2021, if even a bit last year in 2022, the Tiktok was, you know, a massive driver of streams. And so it's like, for some artists, that was where they found success. But, you know, and this is where we get into what are your intentions and who is your fan base? If you're making kind of straight ahead rock and roll, that's going to appeal to like 35 year old plus or you're making like throwback traditional R&B, that's similarly going to appeal to a 35 - 40 year old audience and up. Your marketing methods should not be Tiktok. So like if somebody's like, oh, you got to do a Tiktok, well, like, no, you don't have to do it. You know, you have to understand who your audience is, if your audience is on Tiktok, then maybe. And if your music that you make could be tiktokified, it's like, you know, it's like it's funny, you know, and all that and with Lizzo's song About Damn Time. You know, the thing that went viral on Tiktok was like the seven seconds of the first line of the second verse. It's like the most random shit that catches on Tiktok that you just like don't even know and oftentimes it's just like, you just never know what's going to catch or not. And it's like, so yes, Tiktok that can be a strategy. Absolutely. And it's like buying lottery tickets. So like the more you post, the more, you know, tickets that you're buying the higher profitability you have of something catching and then people using that bit, of course, there's deeper strategies that you can implore if you really want to study this. If you're like Tiktok is the method and the way that I want to go, totally like you can, you can work influencer marketing. That means, you know, get hundreds of influencers with varying audience sizes, micro influencers, macro, whatever kind of budget you have, pay them a little bit of money to use your song or your snippet of your song, your 15 seconds of your song in their video. Have everybody do it in the same week. And hopefully that gives you a chance that inspires more people to use that same 15 seconds in their videos. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. It's kind of like back in the day, you know, when labels would work a radio campaign and spend $300,000 on promoting a single at radio. Sometimes it worked. Sometimes you lost $300,000. And that's what we're seeing right now with influencer marketing campaigns because Tiktok is so fickle and random that you don't know if it's going to work. And if you spend $100,000 on an influencer market, so that is one way. [00:19:38] DAN RUNCIE Yeah, I think the Lizzo point is key with that because I know that she spent and her team spent a lot of time focused on trying to make that whole album special pop on Tiktok. So to your point, the fact that they probably thought it would have been the bad bitch of clock live but then ends up being a completely different line that ends up going completely viral because don't know how exactly it's gonna go but the fact that the team put in work means that something was able to pop there. [00:21:26] ARI HERSTAND The beauty of TikTok is that you can test and test and test and test and test for free, especially like indie artists are doing this all the time. So like yes, Lizzo has millions of dollars behind her and a full team of people that can do this. I'm seeing this with indie artists doing this all the time where they're just testing on their own, you know, they'll post a few videos a day or a week or whatever with different snippets of their line, of their songs rather, and seeing which ones respond best. And then like, oh, okay, it's this part of the song. Like, you know, if they were Lizzo, they were like, oh, it's the first line of the second verse responded better than the other previous 15 snippets that I posted over the last three weeks. So let me do 10 more videos of just that first line of the second verse and see if it was a fluke or if this is actually about a pattern that I'm on to something and they're like, oh, that is what's connecting. And like, oh my gosh, 20 people just posted videos using that the first line of the second verse and they're like, all right, let's keep doing that. And then you kind of, you know, this is how you discover what work is just trial and error, whether you have a label of, you know, 20 social media experts doing this and a million dollars behind it to like, throw gasoline on the fire by hiring influencers to do this. Or if you yourself and your best friend in your bedroom figuring this out, it's the same strategy. [00:21:46] DAN RUNCIE Yeah, that makes sense. And especially with the fact that Indie artists can tweak it, it is free to essentially tweak on TikTok. But I'm curious to hear your opinion on just how the Indie artists specifically can have the ideal team structure. Cause like we said, on one end, you have Lizzo's million dollars behind you on the other end, you have, yeah, it's you and maybe your friend can help you do this. But somewhere in the middle is that successful Indie artists that doesn't have the, you know, major record label resources, but it's still tweaking things. So even if we think a bit more broader than social media, what does that team look like? Like maybe even for yourself, like what does that team structure look like to make sure you have all the pieces in place to run a successful Indie business? [00:27:12] ARI HERSTAND Totally. I mean, it's a great question. And I talk about this in the book. I've updated the new team. I call it the new team. Because there's been the traditional team that's been around for decades. And that's what everybody understands. Like your art manager, your personal manager, your record label, your booking agent, your publicist, your attorney, you know, a publisher like this. That's the traditional team that, you know, you'll read about in the other music business both written by lawyers that were written 30 years ago. Most in the industry on that level, they haven't really updated that team. But when it really comes down to what we're looking about in the new music business with Indie artists, especially before you get those big players on your team, you still have to run your own business yourself. And sometimes we've seen a lot of NDRs that don't ever want a record label. And that's totally fine. So, you don't need that scene, remember necessarily. But what you do need is to be putting out regular content that's representative of who you are as an artist. And so what does that require? Well, it requires video content. Okay, you need someone on your team that can make really good video content. If that's you, cool. But sometimes it's not the artist. And so having someone on the team that's good at video, videographer, whatever, an editor, that is a key number of the new team that is extremely necessary. Say with a photographer, you know, it's really important to kind of have regular, new high quality photos or any kind of photos, whether it's your, you know, candid photos when you're around, when you're on tour, photos from the stage, from behind you with the audience there showing what you're about, promo photos, press photos. So like a photographer. It doesn't need to be a full time member on the team, but I think doing regular photoshoots and having people that are regularly pumping out photos. Again, it doesn't need to be as formal as like a record label or a team member like that. It's like, oh, you're my best friend. You have a new iPhone and you're really good at taking photos. Let's like take a lot of photos all the time and continue to post them. And that counts too, you know, and same with like a designer, like a graphic designer, you know, there's so many used cases where graphic design is gonna be necessary, whether it's designing your album cover or it's merch items or it's show posters or, you know, any other cases where you need something design. Again, it doesn't need to be a full time member of the team. It could be someone you enlist over Upwork that you hire to do that or it could be a friend of yours. That wants to help out. And then there's this role that I call the digital specialist. And, you know, managers and labels of column, it's like, are they calling digital? They're a digital person and it's like, oh, you know, we're going to send it over to digital. Basically, what that is, is like they specialize in social media advertising. This is something that is is really crucial when it comes to the release strategy that we're talking about previously. Virtually every single record label, it be label up to the majors down to individual artists that are releasing music on their own on that have a little bit of a budget are now running social media ads. It takes a lot of time to learn all this and it's a specialty for sure whether you're running ads on, you know, via the meta ads manager with Instagram and Facebook or Tiktok ads manager, YouTube, Google ads, all that stuff. That's what a digital specialist can do and then they kind of monitor everything and then they gather all the assets and then they help kind of guide the strategy. And so all this being said is like these are team members that are important to every indie artists career right now. They don't need to be individual people that handle these roles. I've seen indie artists that do all these roles themselves and they're their own team right now and that's cool. If they can figure that out for me personally like I know that I'm not a good recording engineer and I'm not a producer. So that's another team member that I'm going to hire when I make a record like I'm not Finneas. I'm not going to make a record in my bedroom. Like I can't do that. That's not what I want to do. Like honestly that doesn't inspire me. What inspires me is to make music with other people. So like I'm the type of artist that I'll get into a studio with eight other musicians and we'll track something live, you know, and like that's what I like doing them inspires me. But I need a producer. I need an engineer. I need a mixing engineer. I need a mastering engineer. These are all team members that I might enlist for that one recording. You know, but other people like Finneas was Billie Eilish's first team member. And he was her recording engineer and producer and like she had that built-in team where they could be pumping out music to Soundcloud regularly early on. Whereas like a lot of artists don't have that but some do. It's like again, what are your intentions? What inspires you? What kind of music do you want to make? But there are certain roles that can be filled by either your brother in down the hall, in the bedroom or by someone halfway around the world and Upwork. But these are the roles that can be filled and the jobs that need to get done. [00:27:55] DAN RUNCIE That makes sense. I know another thing for these teams is someone that is always keeping their eye on the new big thing or the new small thing to be able to test out just being able to figure out what's there. And the past couple of years, Web 3 and NFT specifically have guy and even more traction and I think maybe in the most recent year got a little bit less traction to just a more overall transaction level. But as we're heading into 2023 now, how do you look at NFTs as part of your strategy and how do you look at Web 3 more broadly for what artists are doing and any examples that you may have of like yes, this person that is an indie artist that wasn't just a mature artist like did it and they've done it really well. [00:31:44] ARI HERSTAND Absolutely. I don't see Web 3 slowing down anytime soon. I still see that this is as a digital society is heading. It's evolving for sure. Bitcoin isn't kind of what is all encompassing anymore like it was five - six years ago. It's not even just the mouth crypto currencies and it's not even just about NFTs like NFTs. The reason that it's lost a lot of its initial luster and sheen is because when it first kind of caught on, you know, early 2021 or so. It was like that was the sexy new thing that nobody quite understood but once you got it you're like well, this is crazy at the digital collectible.Cool I collected playing cards when I was growing up, I get it, sweet, that's what this is the digital collectible one of one okay cool I understand it so that was like. And people are trying to find used cases like you know we initially heard about Kings of Leon was like one of the first that did like an NFT album and they tied you know physical experiences to their NFTs like you get front row tickets that you were one of the NFT holders for life and you could redeem the NFT for proper tickets. So that was like the first way by say now we're seeing is more used cases and people that are creating them independently so like I had on the podcast on my podcast the name is Business Podcast. Sammy Arriaga, he's a Latin country artist and he's a really great, really cool crossover artist. He is a country musician but it's kind of with Latin infused country music it's really cool. He had a deal with Sony, he was signed to Sony as an artist and any of the publishing deal for a while they you got dropped up. It wasn't up to the major label success standards that they were hoping for. I got dropped. Then he actually had a little bit of success on TikTok in like 2020 and then he pivoted to NFT's in 2022 actually, I believe. And just cut to the headline, he made over $250,000 on his NFT of his album or actually of his song. Just one song to be honest. And how he did it, what was really interesting, it wasn't because of his fan base because the vast majority of music fans right now still have not come around to NFTs. They're not really in the metaverse. They're not in the crypto web 3 community yet. But the web 3 community is still very, very strong. It is thriving and kicking. If you can tap into that, then you can actually have a lot of success there right now, currently today. Now in five years, I do believe that most music fans, there will be used cases and every artist will have something to do with NFTs and Web 3 and micro and bastine which I'll get to in a second. But what Sammy did was he went to that Web 3 community and where do they primarily? Just at the time and still really is on Twitter and specifically Twitter spaces. What he did is he went into these Twitter spaces rooms. These are like the audio, Twitter spaces, the audio, new version of clubhouse and any space that was talking about NFTs and Web 3, he'd pop in, he'd listen for a little bit and then he'd raise his hand and I asked to come up and speak. They'd invite him to speak and he's like, hey, guys, you've been talking about NFTs for the last hour. I play you a song that I wrote, actually about an NFTs and it's called Metagirl and it's a META Metaverse Metagirl and they're like, oh, okay. So essentially, then he played the song. He's like, you can actually get that song right now as an NFT, the links in my, you know, pin the link right here and they were like pin the link in the Twitter space and that's how we did it. And he made $250,000 just from doing essentially by busking on Twitter spaces. [00:32:18] DAN RUNCIE How many Twitter spaces did he do to make that happen?  [00:35:05] ARI HERSTAND It was a lot, you know, because some of the 100 people, some of the 1000 people, but you did it for a while and like, that's a way, you know, that's not a scalable method necessarily that I'm encouraging people to like go busking on Twitter spaces and make an NFT. But he was able to do that and by finding that community, now, you know, Baratay is another indie artist. She was one of the first to kind of start experimenting on NFT platforms and selling NFTs. What she also did early on that we're now starting to see more widely adopted was she not only would release NFTs tied to her songs, but she would tie royalties to the NFTs, meaning you don't just buy an NFT as a digital collectible that you're hoping to resell and make a little money on. You're actually buying a percentage of ownership of the song or like a royalties as I should say of the song. So like she had one time, you know, auctioned off, I guess, you know, and it was through a blockchain platform. I believe she used royal at the time, which is NAS's platform. She like gave away 40% or sold 40% of one of her songs to people. So you could buy whatever percentage you wanted and it was valued at a certain level. And then you can buy that. Now, those platforms are starting to pop up like I'm on the advisory board of label coin and they're a new platform that, you know, started by a booking agent, Mark Miller, who I've known for years. And he approached me and he's like, Hey, here's what we're doing. And it's essentially it is the same concept. Using blockchain technology, but essentially being able to sell a percentage of royalties for your song. So you could theoretically like say, I'm going to sell 50% of the royalties of my song. And it's like, I'm going to sell it to a thousand people. So you could buy like, you know, a half a percent or a quarter of a percent or a small percentage. It's like buying stocks, essentially. It's like, you know, like the Robin Hood from music. So we're starting to see that and the blockchain technology that the whole infrastructure is built on because it's just more streamlined that way. And so like, we're moving to in the future when these platforms likely, book, coin and royal and the others like really start to break into mainstream is the fans are going to think, Oh, I have to learn cryptocurrency and I have to get a wallet and, you know, buy some of Ether, you know, from the Ethereum and buy some ether and like. You know, that is the heavy lift that why it prevented so many people from getting the NFTs. Like I want to learn how to do this and pay gas fees and blah, but like all the shit that it takes hours and hours and hours and hours just for one person to buy like one NFTs. It's like we're getting a little away from that and it's gonna be like a fan is like, oh, I'm gonna get 10% of royalties of Ari's new song and it's done in 10 seconds. And like they don't even know [00:36:33] DAN RUNCIE Yeah, it needs to be as easy as like buying something called the Amazon, right? Like it needs to be instant. And I think that I agree there. I think that was probably one of the biggest gaps for a while. There was all these things. And some of it I think is natural with any new technology. There is an adoption curve. It's always gonna track the enthusiast which at least in this recent era congregated mostly on Web 3 corners of Twitter and we're discussing things. So I think it's really smart, you know, for artists to, you know, jump in on Twitter spaces the way that they did. It was really interesting to hear that in a lot of ways yeah, they weren't even reaching, they're like die hard fans. They were just reaching people that were interested. But that said, I think so much of this rings true with something else that's a concept in your book, the purement of investment. And I think I look at this a lot of ways, almost like a inverted sales fund if you will, address in terms of building awareness, the decision intended and actually getting people to act on it and knowing that you can obviously generate revenue at each level of those streams. But NFTs, especially if they're used the way that they could is something that does sit at the tip of that pyramid. It's not gonna be everyone, but it is something to monetize the die hard fans that you have. But even there you could adjust where it sits based on what you price it, how many drops you have and so many other things. [00:40:02] ARI HERSTAND Absolutely, yes, the pyramid of investment on this concept that I have in the book, I'll just kind of break it down a little bit so people understand. It's like, you think about it, you know, this is financial investment. I also have a pyramid of engagement, which I'll get into a second, but what just investment at the bottom of that pyramid, we have the people that don't really spend any money on you directly, they might stream your song, they might stream your music, you might make a little bit of money from what their actions that they're taking like the stream of your music, but they're not like spending money on you directly. So that's the bottom of the pyramid and that's where the vast majority of the music of fans, audience, listenership lives just across the industry. But as we go up the pyramid, you know, then there's like, those that might attend your live stream and like tip you over that or they might just like tip you here and there and you know, in the digital realm, sure, it's a live stream, it's on Twitch, or whatever, or like, you know, they can tip you in real life or something, they're going to your shows and they'll tip you. So it's like the tippers essentially, then you go up a little bit higher, that people are actually buying tickets to your shows. Now they are actually directing money directly to you and they're coming to your concerts, they're your ticket buyers, your concert goers, then you look a level higher, they're the merch buyers. They're the ones that buy merch at those shows or buy merch online, but you know, your store or from your Spotify profile or whenever they're buying merch directly from you, they're like, I'm a real fan, I want to buy merch. Then we go higher and then we're into that category of fan clubs, crowdfunding campaigns, you know, investment, NFT, three point, you know, with that whole realm of like, I'm like such a big fan that if they're on Patreon, I'm going to be their patron. If they're running a Kickstarter, I'm going to back their Kickstarter. If they're selling a percentage of their royalties of the new song, I want to buy that. And then at the very tippy tippy top of that, it's kind of a little bit of out too, but it's like those that are buying the VIP packages. So it's kind of like a combination of it all. It's like that, am I going to, you know, go to the show and I spend the $250, you know, do a 10 sound check and get the merch package and do that whole thing. So it's like that's all at the top. And so you think about this as the pyramid of investment, you're going to have fans at every level of that and you want to make sure that you cater to all of them and that you don't exclude some. So it's like, you know, I think people can kind of have understood this concept when, like, I first got this like six, seven years ago when Patreon kind started to hit after Kickstarter. And I saw some of my friends that were running Patreon campaigns and Kickstarter campaigns, I know simultaneously. And to me, that seemed counterintuitive. I was like, wait a minute, your fans are only going to do one or the other. It's like, they're going to either back your crowd and bring you an album or they're going to be your patrons, right? No, I was wrong. What it was, was really like Kickstarter was below on that pyramid. There were more people that are willing to drop a hundred bucks this one time, this one year to back your Kickstarter, but then there's fewer people a little bit higher up on that pyramid that are going to pay you $10 a month on Patreon or Substack or whatever it's going to be, Band Camp, any subscriber service that are a level higher that will be your subscribers and then it just kind of keeps going up from there. [00:40:28] DAN RUNCIE Yeah, I think that makes sense. And the thing that I've often thought about the model too is that of course the revenue that you get per fan does increase as you go further up that period. But if you were to multiply that by the number of fans in each of those tiers, do you think that the tiers do start to equal out roughly or what does that look like for you? [00:41:39] ARI HERSTAND That's a really great question. I don't really need data to back that up, but that's a really great experiment and something that should be studied, I think like an artist that kind of, yeah, I'm going to work on putting those numbers together. That's a great idea. It's kind of like along the lines of the Thousand True Fans Concept, where this concept is, you know, they say that if you can get a thousand people to pay you $100 a year every year for the rest of your life, rest of your career, now you have a career and that's all you really need is a thousand people to pay you $100. However, if you break that down a little bit differently on the government of investment, you don't need the thousand people to pay you $100. You could get a hundred people to pay you $400, you could get 200 people to pay you $200. You could get, you know, 400 people to pay $50, you could get 700 people to pay you $20 a year, you know, and you could really break that down a little bit differently. And so it's like, how are you going to get to that $100,000 a year mark if that's your goal or a million dollars a year, if that's your goal. And it all these fans are going to fall somewhere. All this money is going to fall somewhere on that pyramid of investment. [00:43:12] DAN RUNCIE Yeah. I think about it this way too, maybe from like an example perspective. Let's look at someone at the top. Look at someone like Beyonce. I could see her. I would need to do the math. But let's just say ballpark speaking, she gets $30 million a year revenue from her music, right? Purely from streaming. I could also see her getting $30 million a year from, let's say she does a few concerts that year or a few special one offs. She could also get $30 million a year from doing two private shows of performing at a wedding or something like that or performing at an Uber private event. So each of those things can equal that amount. But yeah, I think that way to break down the thousand true fans, I think is important too. Because I think when that theory came out, Kevin Kelly's, I think it's back in 2018, but it made a bunch of sense. But I think for most people putting things out, yeah, even that requires a bit of segmentation there. So it's fascinating. And I'm sure so much of this is fascinating for you as well. Because I feel like you kind of have two examples of this with the businesses that you're running. You have Ari Herstand, the artist and you have your own, pure, mid of investment. You also have your visit of this podcast, the courses and the book as well. And for you, I'm sure I know you have a team that helps with each of these things, but do you look at it any differently between the two, you know, yourself as an educator that is sharing this information combined with yourself as the musician? [00:49:10] ARI HERSTAND Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Like, I think, you know, why people have responded to the artist take business and my book and the artist take account of me and the music, the podcast and all the stuff that like, I do on the music business education front is because I am a musician. I have that musician's empathy. I've, you know, lived it and living it and it's like, I understand how hard everything is. It's like, you know, I'm not just saying it to say it like NN because I read it somewhere. Like, I'm living it. I'm interviewing people that are living it. You know, I put on two different hats like I look at myself almost now as like part journalists and like kind of, you know, in the lane that you're in where by interviewing more people, we learn more and that's great. Like, I know my perspective and everyone's perspective can be limited to their own experiences. So I try to widen my experiences by widening my information base by talking to more people. So the whole point of the podcast honestly was just to talk to more people, smarter people than me that are doing bigger things and more successfully than I was doing. So I could learn from them and then share that information. Like I've always interviewed people from like artist take and writing for other publications and I then made the podcast basically public. With my own music career, you know, the intentions have shifted. But when I started Ari's take as a blog 10 years ago, I made 100% of my money from my music. I was like a full-time artist, touring artist releasing music, all that stuff like touring most of my year, going on plenty of national tours. The intentions have shifted when I realized where I can be most useful and necessary. So like I don't tour anymore. You know, I'll do one-offs here in there. Like when I'm with my new funk project, Rasmentisdrake, it's like I do in a kind of an immersive funk experience. And I want to keep that in one place like we did in L.A. in like last summer, we did, you know, a 16-show run in L.A.. That's like my creative outlet. Like I do in the intentions of that, I want to top the Spotify charts and like go on tour. So like why I keep going back to like what are the intentions for every artist is like they're different. So my intention for that was like I wanted to sell out all those 16 shows and like that was my own function for the off thing. Or I wanted to at least, you know, get people a good experience and have a good time doing these things. Like I released a solo album last year under my own name. And the intention of that was honestly not I want to go on tour or I want to, you know, and get millions of streams. It was just like I went through a break out and I needed to write these songs and release them for my own mental health and just like honestly just for my own well-being and like get these songs out there. And people connected with them. And that was wonderful. And like I heard from tons of people that really resonated with the songs. Like that was something that you know gave me some perspective to is like, my focus right now is not making a living just for my soul of singer songwriter project like it used to be. That being said, there's a place for everything. And so, you know, I covered this concept of like the multi-hyphenate. Everyone's a multi-hyphenate. Everyone from Beyonce down to me and any other indie artist that is working at a day job or whatever, everyone's a multi-hyphenate. Like, your job title can start with musician and then it can be, you know, what else? Like, some people are musician, lift drivers. Some people are, you know, musician, entrepreneur, CEOs like, you know, Dre as Beaks, headphones is like, oh, he's an entrepreneur and a business person. And so it's like, I don't think the artists need to feel like shameful or insecure about their other hyphenates, their other job titles. You know, at the end of the day, you want to do what inspires you. And so for me, you know, my idea of success is making a living, supporting the kind of lifestyle that I'd like to live doing what I love and offering value and meanings to people. And so I've kind of structured my own life in a way where I go to where I feel like I'm needed and then where I can bring value to people. And that I've found, you know, most useful in kind of the artist take blame and the music business lane of everything I'm doing. But at the same time, like, I'm an artist. Like, I'm never not going to be an artist. Like, that's just like who I am. That's like what my soul is. And so it's like, I can't ever stop doing that. Like if I don't want to force myself to ring out as much money from that, there's no shame in that. Like that's, you know, sure, you know, I always say it was all the time to be, it was like, if you're happy making music from home and putting it online and you're making like 50 grand a year by doing that. And that's like what you figured out how to do. You've got some same theory, you're on some ads, you got some streaming, whatever. And like you're doing that and you're happy. Wonderful. Could you make a hundred, 200, 300,000 dollars more if you like one on tour or up your merch operation or like, you know, started a Patreon or launch an NFT or something like that? Maybe. But do you have to? But no, of course not. Like do what makes you happy. Like if that's going to make you unhappy because you're chasing more money and like why? Like you don't need to do that. Like do what makes you happy. And that's the big thing. And so it's like, you know, I'm constantly figuring that out for myself and I encourage other artists that figure it out for themselves. [00:49:30] DAN RUNCIE Yeah. And I think that's a good way to put it, right? There's so much action now. You know, there's so many opportunities in everywhere. It isn't multi-high fit. It is really up to you how many hyphens you have behind that name and how heavily you want to push all of them. And I think the other one for you is author. And of course you have this book coming out in a couple of weeks. So yeah, before we let you go, let me just do one more close to let people know the updates with the book and when to expect. [00:50:05] ARI HERSTAND Yeah. So It is out January 17th, 2023. You can get it wherever you find books with its Amazon or Barnes and Noble or your local bookstore. And I don't know when this is airing or gonna go live, but if you're in L.A. on January 17th, join me at Barnes and Noble up at Grove and we're doing a book signing and a live podcast recording there. But yeah, I've added a hundred new pages to it. I've updated stuff in every section. I've rewritten chapters, but scratch, of course. A lot of stuff we talked about today is in the book like NFTs and Web 3 and TikTok and live streaming. A lot of stuff that didn't exist three years ago. So I've completely rewritten the majority of the book. So you know, if you have the first or second edition of the book, I encourage you to check out this third edition. It's very, very different and updated. [00:50:46] DAN RUNCIE Good stuff, man. Excited for you. Thanks for coming on. This is great.  {00:50:50] ARI HERSTAND Thank you.  {00:50:54] DAN RUNCIE OUTRO If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and give a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:00:00 -0000 Why Algorithms are Getting Smarter with Ari Herstand full Dan Runcie I had a great chat about the future of streaming and more with Ari Herstand, who isan independent artist who also runs Ari’s Take, an education business to teach others artists about the industry. He just released the third edition of his book, How To Make It In the New Music Business. Ari joined me to discuss how artists are navigating new music releases. It's increasingly getting out of the artist’s hands in favor of the uncontrollable algorithms powering the likes of Spotify and TikTok. Ari says it’s like, “playing the lottery.”  While algorithms are taking the human element out of music discovery, that human touch has found itself into new artist monetization tools like NFTs. It has inverted what Ari calls an artist’s “pyramid of investment” for an artist growing their fanbase. Ari and I covered a lot of ground on this episode. Here’s what you can expect to hear from us: [3:10] Waterfall release method infiltrating Spotify [8:15] Music discovery power shifting away from human, toward algorithms  [11:40] DSP’s purposely pulling power away from playlist editors [19:21] TikTok isn’t for every artist [21:26] Evolving team structure of an indie artist  [27:55] Role of music NFTs [31:44] How Sammy Arriaga sold $250k of NFTs to non-fans [40:02] The Pyramid of investment  [49:10] Ari the musician vs. Ari the educator  [50:05] Updated version of How To Make It In New Music Business book Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Ari Herstand, @ariherstand Learn more about Ari's book, How to Make It in the New Music Business here: https://book.aristake.com Learn more about Ari's Take here: https://aristake.com/ This week’s sponsor is Laylo. Join artists like Kodak Black, Sam Smith, and others who notify their fans instantly when they drop merch, tickets, and more. Create your own drop page for free in seconds at laylo.com Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] ARI HERSTAND I'm not a good recording engineer and I'm not a producer. So that's another team member that I'm going to hire when I make a record. Like I'm not Finneas. I'm not going to make a record in my bedroom. Like I can't do that. And that's not what I want to do. Like honestly, that doesn't inspire me. What inspires me is to make music with other people. [00:00:26] DAN RUNCIE INTRO Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:01:36] DAN RUNCIE Today's episode is a playbook for all the indie artists out there. I had a great conversation with Ari Herstand, who is a musician himself, and he's also the founder of Ari's Take, which is his education business that focuses on how artists can make it today, especially indie artists. How indie artists can make it today in the new music business. And that's actually the title of the third edition of this upcoming book. Ari and I talked a lot about some of the new and updated insights that he has in this edition of the book, specifically around streaming, and how artists are starting to favor and prefer focusing on algorithms and how that can get them more listeners and where playlists currently sit with artists prioritizing them. And we also talk about NFTs, TikTok, and Ari's concept in the book called the Pyramid of Investment. This is a great conversation for anyone that wants to better understand the music industry, especially for the growing segment of independent artists that are carving their lanes out for themselves. Here's the episode. Hope you enjoy it. [00:01:48] DAN RUNCIE All right, today we are joined by Ari Herstand, who is the author of his new book that's coming out, how to make it in the new music business. He's an artist himself, and I was lucky enough to be a guest on his podcast a couple months back. So Ari, it's great to have you on. And congrats on the book coming up. [00:02:06] ARI HERSTAND Yeah, thanks, Dan. Thank you. Thank you. Very exciting. The third edition and get ramped up for that. But it's great to be here with you today. Thanks for having me. [00:02:17] DAN RUNCIE Yeah, definitely. And I know for you, one of the big topics of the book is just how artists continue to evolve with how they're releasing music, how they're paying attention to what's going on with streaming right now. I feel like you have a good vantage point for this because you're doing so much of this yourself with your own releases. What are some of the big changes? Because I know that everything post-pandemic has been a little different, and now we're heading into this new phase right now with the new year. What's the big thing for you that you're seeing with the evolution? [00:09:07] ARI HERSTAND Right. So every artist needs to ask themselves what their intentions are with their release. And so, you know, the beautiful thing about the new music business and the scary and daunting thing about the new music business is there really isn't a right or a wrong way to do anything. There is the right and wrong way for you. And that could be the wrong way for me. So everyone, you know, it's based on your intentions and what your goals are for the release. If we just go, you know, more in the mainstream realm or let's just say your intention is to be successful on Spotify. Because that's a metric that most artists these days are kind of using to gauge the success of their release. And they want to have the best chance of, you know, grabbing that Spotify, being being blessed by the Spotify God, I guess. So to do that, there is a very specific release strategy that has been studied and now tested and now used by everyone from Lizzo and Krungman to Maggie Rogers to Robert Glassberg. And that's the waterfall release method. And Indie artists, you know, that are just releasing their first few singles are using this as well. I mean, this is the waterfall release method. And I'll break this down a little bit on what this means. This has started to get used a few years ago, but it really picked up last year in 2022. And now 2023 is I think going to be the year of the waterfall. But basically what it is is that, you know, you release singles leading up to the album. That has been happening for years now. However, here's what gets a little bit more where where it gets a nuance on how those singles are released. It's you don't just release a single song anymore as a single. You release your first single one song. That's just the one song released one second now your second single is that the new song is track number one. And the previous single that you released is track number two. So it's technically your second single, but it's kind of like a two song album. If you really go that way, if you're tuning it up, if you're an artist is to the artist asking this all the time. Well, how do I do this in my district? back end or whatever, like doing it's a two song album. And the way that the streams maintain for the previous single and that you don't lose your playlist inclusion, all that stuff is you use the same highest or C number. And so it's if you use the same highest or C number that used when you released that track, a month prior, it will be identical stream counts. And then a month later, you release your third single, but that's now a three track album. You know track number one is the new single track number two is the single you release a month ago and track number three is the is the single you release two months ago. And as long again, use the same highest or C numbers, it'll be included in the same playlist. They will be identical tracks, wherever they're included on people's algorithm, personal playlists, all that stuff. You can do this. People are doing five or six singles that way. And then the album and this release method, you know, this could take eight months, essentially, if you want to do one single every four to six weeks, and then the album. How you can kind of look at it, is you're building the album. And so it doesn't have to go on order, you can pick whatever order you want based on your singles. And then the final album is the album order, no correlation doesn't have to be the single order, you can pick whatever order you want each time. The track art can be different each time. I've seen it, people do different single art for each release. I've seen people just use the album cover for every release. So you know, at the end, you might have like six singles released that each have a few different songs on them. And then the full album, some people pull those previous singles down. So if they want to get a clean discography going up there, you just have a final album at the end of the day. And the previous singles with like the two song album, a three-song album, the four-song album before they pull those down. But you're not going to lose any playlists, you're not going to lose any stream counts because you're using same iris to scene numbers each time. So that is a release method, and the reason people are doing it this way is for the Spotify algorithm because Spotify likes to have regular releases. And if you send somebody say, hey, here's my new song and you send them the link, they're going to listen to that song. Now, if there's nothing, no other songs following that song to listen to, after your song finishes, Spotify is going to recommend them something to listen to or they're going to jump off and listen to something else. Now, if you give them the songs to listen to that after your previous releases, they'll stick around and keep listening to it. So the reason people are doing this is for the Spotify algorithm, but also to keep their fans engaged. So like say, here's your single number four and they listen to it and like, oh, cool. What now? I'm going to go back to listening to my favorite artist. Unless you have singles three, two, and one also there. And like, oh, I'll just keep listening to the other songs on this essential playlist. You think of it, whatever you want, a four-song album, a four-song single, a playlist of your new singles. However, you want to think of it, the user is just thinking, oh, I'm clicking on this link or new music Friday, or I'm in my release radar. I see this new single come out by this new artist I like. And then Spotify is going to start to recommend those songs through the algorithm. And the best thing about continuing to release the and the waterfall method is like those previous singles stay included in release radar. So this is like what has been figured out by labels and managers and artists over the last few years. And based on what Spotify wants to see and basically what they're being rewarded for with the algorithm from Spotify. And you know, I think a few years ago, everybody was chasing the playlist editors and like, oh my gosh, if I can just get included in the rap caviar, then like I'm set forever. Whatever the playlist inclusion, the editorial playlists are not as powerful right now as the algorithmic playlists are. That is a big change. Is like three, four years ago, people were like, oh, it's all about the official editorial. Now you want to trigger that algorithm because that is now personalizing every single user's playlist based on what Spotify thinks that user likes to hear. And you want to get your songs included in that. And people are just letting Spotify feed them now based on the algorithm versus seeking out playlist [00:09:27] DAN RUNCIE And why do you think that that shift happened from the playlist prioritization to the algorithm? Was it something internal with Spotify or is it just a natural decline in the power of playlist? {00:11:40] ARI HERSTAND Yeah, I mean, the main thing is is let's think about what Spotify's intentions and goals are. Their goals are to keep users on their platform as long as possible. And they've discovered that if you feed users songs that they want to hear and have a higher success rate of them continuing to listen and stay on Spotify, then they're going to follow that. Then Spotify is going to do more of that. So they've been AB in this for years. They're like, OK, do people stick on our platform on Spotify longer by listening to our editorial playlists that human beings employed by Spotify are creating? Or do they stick on our platform longer by the algorithmic playlists that are internal robots are curating for them, the algorithm is curating for them. And what they found is that people are sticking around longer with the algorithmic playlists. So they're now doing more of that and realizing that this is what it is engaging users to stay on Spotify longer, because that's what users prefer. The algorithm has gotten a lot better at learning people's tastes, music tastes, than any singular playlist editor. And the other thing is, when we're talking about indie artists, is that why indie artists need to refocus their efforts into more of the algorithmic lane versus the editor lane, is that playlist editors, I mean, it's like playing the lottery to try to get an official Spotify editorial playlist. For one, with 100,000 songs being uploaded every day, you have a very, very hard chance of getting selected being one of those songs that is going to get included on. The very select few Spotify editorial playlist spots. But the algorithm, there's billions, literally billions of playlists that theoretically that they can put you on, or the algorithm will insert you into various people's radios or discover weekly or whatever. You have a much better chance of getting there. And then if users respond, well, do your song there. I mean, you pop up on someone's discover weekly, and they click save. I like this song. I want to hear more of it, and they don't skip it. That sends signals back to the Spotify algorithm, like, oh, this song is performing well. Let's try it in more algorithmic labels. Let's try it in more radio. Let's try it in more of these. And then theoretically, you'll just get included more and more, and then it'll just kind of snowball onto itself. [00:12:46] DAN RUNCIE Yeah, I think the algorithm getting better, that what you mentioned, is likely one of the big drivers of this, because if I think back to the days of, let's say, like the mid 2010s, the algorithm still felt a bit similar to those old Pandora algorithms where after the seventh song, you start hearing the same thing over and over. And if you're comparing that to, let's say, what Tuma Basa was doing at Rap Caviar at the time that, of course, yeah, I think Tuma is going to be the better curator of what you have. But if you're shifting things to now, where these algorithms just get better and better and better, then, and I think as well, over time, a lot of the playlist also had that alert. There was a bit of the, oh, this is the new radio. This is this, but then, yeah, when the playlist is better and better, even as a Spotify user over time, you can see that, okay, they do have a better sense for where things are. So naturally, it did shift the behavior. And I think you kind of saw this more broadly with, you know, outside of music as well, with movies or TV shows and other things. I think the algorithms do get better over time. [00:16:02] ARI HERSTAND Oh, absolutely. Yes, we're seeing that, you know, absolutely across the board with Netflix and Hulu and Prime and all that stuff. But, I mean, you bring up a good point about, you know, the human and the human playlist editors and what, you know, the power has shifted away from these playlist editors in part because Spotify is pulling the power from that. Because, you know, they're not giving the playlist editors free reign. It's kind of like if we can compare it to, you know, radio stations back on the day that the DJs had the power and they could play whatever they wanted. And that was like, you know, when the 70s and the 80s and maybe even a little bit into the 90s, you know, the DJs could play whatever they wanted. And they were all powerful because that's how people discovered music. Then Clear Channel took over and bought up all the radio stations and was like, oh, guess what? These are the only songs that you're allowed to play now. Here's the list. And then every week Clear Channel would update that list and send the list to all the DJs and say, you can choose, but you have to play these songs. So then the DJs became less powerful because that power was removed away from them by the overlords, which was the owners of the station, which was Clear Channel. The same thing has started to happen on Spotify. The editors used to be the all powerful DJs. They used to be all powerful playlist editors. Now they're overlords, they're owners, Spotify has come to them and be like, well, guess what? Your playlist is not keeping people on this, on Spotify and on the playlist long enough anymore. So you're only allowed to do three new songs a week. And in those three songs don't really perform well, then you're either gonna lose your job or you're not going to have the liberty to choose the song anymore. And of those three songs, they actually have to be from this list, which is the song that have already been pre-tested on the algorithmic side. So it's kind of like we see the same thing as it's like, instead of clear channel dictating the list based on their private marketing rooms and studies with surveys of listeners like they used to do when they would test songs with radio with market groups, now Spotify's testing songs with the algorithm and then they send those songs to the editors and be like, okay, these songs are proven. So when Tua was selecting the song for Rap Caviar, he was at the start of it. But as it got later on and on and what's happening with today's topics with Rap Caviar and all of them, he's just not one person anymore that's shooting. I mean, when Troy Carter was at Spotify and kind of in charge of all this, he said this and this was mind you four or five years ago, this was happening to them. It's like with those big, big playlists, he's like, it's no one person that is deciding this. These songs are tested and then we decide that it was going to go into those big playlists. But now that's happening on every playlist top to bottom. [00:16:25] DAN RUNCIE Right. And circling back to what you had said at the beginning that this, of course, is shifting artists to that focus on how they're releasing music, the waterfall strategy, but tweaking that specifically for what they're doing with singles leading up to the album. But I also have to assume that to a certain extent, some of this does become table stakes in that everyone, as you mentioned, is doing it that knows what they're doing right, whether it's you or it's Lizzo or others. So once that's kind of the lay of the land, are there additional things that, you know, artists that you're at least suggesting that artists should or shouldn't be doing or at that point does become more and more dependent on things that are independent of the release, whether it's the artists fandom, the quality of the music and so on. [00:19:21] ARI HERSTAND Absolutely. And this goes back to the intentions. And so, you know, it's no secret that in 2020, 2021, if even a bit last year in 2022, the Tiktok was, you know, a massive driver of streams. And so it's like, for some artists, that was where they found success. But, you know, and this is where we get into what are your intentions and who is your fan base? If you're making kind of straight ahead rock and roll, that's going to appeal to like 35 year old plus or you're making like throwback traditional R&B, that's similarly going to appeal to a 35 - 40 year old audience and up. Your marketing methods should not be Tiktok. So like if somebody's like, oh, you got to do a Tiktok, well, like, no, you don't have to do it. You know, you have to understand who your audience is, if your audience is on Tiktok, then maybe. And if your music that you make could be tiktokified, it's like, you know, it's like it's funny, you know, and all that and with Lizzo's song About Damn Time. You know, the thing that went viral on Tiktok was like the seven seconds of the first line of the second verse. It's like the most random shit that catches on Tiktok that you just like don't even know and oftentimes it's just like, you just never know what's going to catch or not. And it's like, so yes, Tiktok that can be a strategy. Absolutely. And it's like buying lottery tickets. So like the more you post, the more, you know, tickets that you're buying the higher profitability you have of something catching and then people using that bit, of course, there's deeper strategies that you can implore if you really want to study this. If you're like Tiktok is the method and the way that I want to go, totally like you can, you can work influencer marketing. That means, you know, get hundreds of influencers with varying audience sizes, micro influencers, macro, whatever kind of budget you have, pay them a little bit of money to use your song or your snippet of your song, your 15 seconds of your song in their video. Have everybody do it in the same week. And hopefully that gives you a chance that inspires more people to use that same 15 seconds in their videos. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. It's kind of like back in the day, you know, when labels would work a radio campaign and spend $300,000 on promoting a single at radio. Sometimes it worked. Sometimes you lost $300,000. And that's what we're seeing right now with influencer marketing campaigns because Tiktok is so fickle and random that you don't know if it's going to work. And if you spend $100,000 on an influencer market, so that is one way. [00:19:38] DAN RUNCIE Yeah, I think the Lizzo point is key with that because I know that she spent and her team spent a lot of time focused on trying to make that whole album special pop on Tiktok. So to your point, the fact that they probably thought it would have been the bad bitch of clock live but then ends up being a completely different line that ends up going completely viral because don't know how exactly it's gonna go but the fact that the team put in work means that something was able to pop there. [00:21:26] ARI HERSTAND The beauty of TikTok is that you can test and test and test and test and test for free, especially like indie artists are doing this all the time. So like yes, Lizzo has millions of dollars behind her and a full team of people that can do this. I'm seeing this with indie artists doing this all the time where they're just testing on their own, you know, they'll post a few videos a day or a week or whatever with different snippets of their line, of their songs rather, and seeing which ones respond best. And then like, oh, okay, it's this part of the song. Like, you know, if they were Lizzo, they were like, oh, it's the first line of the second verse responded better than the other previous 15 snippets that I posted over the last three weeks. So let me do 10 more videos of just that first line of the second verse and see if it was a fluke or if this is actually about a pattern that I'm on to something and they're like, oh, that is what's connecting. And like, oh my gosh, 20 people just posted videos using that the first line of the second verse and they're like, all right, let's keep doing that. And then you kind of, you know, this is how you discover what work is just trial and error, whether you have a label of, you know, 20 social media experts doing this and a million dollars behind it to like, throw gasoline on the fire by hiring influencers to do this. Or if you yourself and your best friend in your bedroom figuring this out, it's the same strategy. [00:21:46] DAN RUNCIE Yeah, that makes sense. And especially with the fact that Indie artists can tweak it, it is free to essentially tweak on TikTok. But I'm curious to hear your opinion on just how the Indie artists specifically can have the ideal team structure. Cause like we said, on one end, you have Lizzo's million dollars behind you on the other end, you have, yeah, it's you and maybe your friend can help you do this. But somewhere in the middle is that successful Indie artists that doesn't have the, you know, major record label resources, but it's still tweaking things. So even if we think a bit more broader than social media, what does that team look like? Like maybe even for yourself, like what does that team structure look like to make sure you have all the pieces in place to run a successful Indie business? [00:27:12] ARI HERSTAND Totally. I mean, it's a great question. And I talk about this in the book. I've updated the new team. I call it the new team. Because there's been the traditional team that's been around for decades. And that's what everybody understands. Like your art manager, your personal manager, your record label, your booking agent, your publicist, your attorney, you know, a publisher like this. That's the traditional team that, you know, you'll read about in the other music business both written by lawyers that were written 30 years ago. Most in the industry on that level, they haven't really updated that team. But when it really comes down to what we're looking about in the new music business with Indie artists, especially before you get those big players on your team, you still have to run your own business yourself. And sometimes we've seen a lot of NDRs that don't ever want a record label. And that's totally fine. So, you don't need that scene, remember necessarily. But what you do need is to be putting out regular content that's representative of who you are as an artist. And so what does that require? Well, it requires video content. Okay, you need someone on your team that can make really good video content. If that's you, cool. But sometimes it's not the artist. And so having someone on the team that's good at video, videographer, whatever, an editor, that is a key number of the new team that is extremely necessary. Say with a photographer, you know, it's really important to kind of have regular, new high quality photos or any kind of photos, whether it's your, you know, candid photos when you're around, when you're on tour, photos from the stage, from behind you with the audience there showing what you're about, promo photos, press photos. So like a photographer. It doesn't need to be a full time member on the team, but I think doing regular photoshoots and having people that are regularly pumping out photos. Again, it doesn't need to be as formal as like a record label or a team member like that. It's like, oh, you're my best friend. You have a new iPhone and you're really good at taking photos. Let's like take a lot of photos all the time and continue to post them. And that counts too, you know, and same with like a designer, like a graphic designer, you know, there's so many used cases where graphic design is gonna be necessary, whether it's designing your album cover or it's merch items or it's show posters or, you know, any other cases where you need something design. Again, it doesn't need to be a full time member of the team. It could be someone you enlist over Upwork that you hire to do that or it could be a friend of yours. That wants to help out. And then there's this role that I call the digital specialist. And, you know, managers and labels of column, it's like, are they calling digital? They're a digital person and it's like, oh, you know, we're going to send it over to digital. Basically, what that is, is like they specialize in social media advertising. This is something that is is really crucial when it comes to the release strategy that we're talking about previously. Virtually every single record label, it be label up to the majors down to individual artists that are releasing music on their own on that have a little bit of a budget are now running social media ads. It takes a lot of time to learn all this and it's a specialty for sure whether you're running ads on, you know, via the meta ads manager with Instagram and Facebook or Tiktok ads manager, YouTube, Google ads, all that stuff. That's what a digital specialist can do and then they kind of monitor everything and then they gather all the assets and then they help kind of guide the strategy. And so all this being said is like these are team members that are important to every indie artists career right now. They don't need to be individual people that handle these roles. I've seen indie artists that do all these roles themselves and they're their own team right now and that's cool. If they can figure that out for me personally like I know that I'm not a good recording engineer and I'm not a producer. So that's another team member that I'm going to hire when I make a record like I'm not Finneas. I'm not going to make a record in my bedroom. Like I can't do that. That's not what I want to do. Like honestly that doesn't inspire me. What inspires me is to make music with other people. So like I'm the type of artist that I'll get into a studio with eight other musicians and we'll track something live, you know, and like that's what I like doing them inspires me. But I need a producer. I need an engineer. I need a mixing engineer. I need a mastering engineer. These are all team members that I might enlist for that one recording. You know, but other people like Finneas was Billie Eilish's first team member. And he was her recording engineer and producer and like she had that built-in team where they could be pumping out music to Soundcloud regularly early on. Whereas like a lot of artists don't have that but some do. It's like again, what are your intentions? What inspires you? What kind of music do you want to make? But there are certain roles that can be filled by either your brother in down the hall, in the bedroom or by someone halfway around the world and Upwork. But these are the roles that can be filled and the jobs that need to get done. [00:27:55] DAN RUNCIE That makes sense. I know another thing for these teams is someone that is always keeping their eye on the new big thing or the new small thing to be able to test out just being able to figure out what's there. And the past couple of years, Web 3 and NFT specifically have guy and even more traction and I think maybe in the most recent year got a little bit less traction to just a more overall transaction level. But as we're heading into 2023 now, how do you look at NFTs as part of your strategy and how do you look at Web 3 more broadly for what artists are doing and any examples that you may have of like yes, this person that is an indie artist that wasn't just a mature artist like did it and they've done it really well. [00:31:44] ARI HERSTAND Absolutely. I don't see Web 3 slowing down anytime soon. I still see that this is as a digital society is heading. It's evolving for sure. Bitcoin isn't kind of what is all encompassing anymore like it was five - six years ago. It's not even just the mouth crypto currencies and it's not even just about NFTs like NFTs. The reason that it's lost a lot of its initial luster and sheen is because when it first kind of caught on, you know, early 2021 or so. It was like that was the sexy new thing that nobody quite understood but once you got it you're like well, this is crazy at the digital collectible.Cool I collected playing cards when I was growing up, I get it, sweet, that's what this is the digital collectible one of one okay cool I understand it so that was like. And people are trying to find used cases like you know we initially heard about Kings of Leon was like one of the first that did like an NFT album and they tied you know physical experiences to their NFTs like you get front row tickets that you were one of the NFT holders for life and you could redeem the NFT for proper tickets. So that was like the first way by say now we're seeing is more used cases and people that are creating them independently so like I had on the podcast on my podcast the name is Business Podcast. Sammy Arriaga, he's a Latin country artist and he's a really great, really cool crossover artist. He is a country musician but it's kind of with Latin infused country music it's really cool. He had a deal with Sony, he was signed to Sony as an artist and any of the publishing deal for a while they you got dropped up. It wasn't up to the major label success standards that they were hoping for. I got dropped. Then he actually had a little bit of success on TikTok in like 2020 and then he pivoted to NFT's in 2022 actually, I believe. And just cut to the headline, he made over $250,000 on his NFT of his album or actually of his song. Just one song to be honest. And how he did it, what was really interesting, it wasn't because of his fan base because the vast majority of music fans right now still have not come around to NFTs. They're not really in the metaverse. They're not in the crypto web 3 community yet. But the web 3 community is still very, very strong. It is thriving and kicking. If you can tap into that, then you can actually have a lot of success there right now, currently today. Now in five years, I do believe that most music fans, there will be used cases and every artist will have something to do with NFTs and Web 3 and micro and bastine which I'll get to in a second. But what Sammy did was he went to that Web 3 community and where do they primarily? Just at the time and still really is on Twitter and specifically Twitter spaces. What he did is he went into these Twitter spaces rooms. These are like the audio, Twitter spaces, the audio, new version of clubhouse and any space that was talking about NFTs and Web 3, he'd pop in, he'd listen for a little bit and then he'd raise his hand and I asked to come up and speak. They'd invite him to speak and he's like, hey, guys, you've been talking about NFTs for the last hour. I play you a song that I wrote, actually about an NFTs and it's called Metagirl and it's a META Metaverse Metagirl and they're like, oh, okay. So essentially, then he played the song. He's like, you can actually get that song right now as an NFT, the links in my, you know, pin the link right here and they were like pin the link in the Twitter space and that's how we did it. And he made $250,000 just from doing essentially by busking on Twitter spaces. [00:32:18] DAN RUNCIE How many Twitter spaces did he do to make that happen?  [00:35:05] ARI HERSTAND It was a lot, you know, because some of the 100 people, some of the 1000 people, but you did it for a while and like, that's a way, you know, that's not a scalable method necessarily that I'm encouraging people to like go busking on Twitter spaces and make an NFT. But he was able to do that and by finding that community, now, you know, Baratay is another indie artist. She was one of the first to kind of start experimenting on NFT platforms and selling NFTs. What she also did early on that we're now starting to see more widely adopted was she not only would release NFTs tied to her songs, but she would tie royalties to the NFTs, meaning you don't just buy an NFT as a digital collectible that you're hoping to resell and make a little money on. You're actually buying a percentage of ownership of the song or like a royalties as I should say of the song. So like she had one time, you know, auctioned off, I guess, you know, and it was through a blockchain platform. I believe she used royal at the time, which is NAS's platform. She like gave away 40% or sold 40% of one of her songs to people. So you could buy whatever percentage you wanted and it was valued at a certain level. And then you can buy that. Now, those platforms are starting to pop up like I'm on the advisory board of label coin and they're a new platform that, you know, started by a booking agent, Mark Miller, who I've known for years. And he approached me and he's like, Hey, here's what we're doing. And it's essentially it is the same concept. Using blockchain technology, but essentially being able to sell a percentage of royalties for your song. So you could theoretically like say, I'm going to sell 50% of the royalties of my song. And it's like, I'm going to sell it to a thousand people. So you could buy like, you know, a half a percent or a quarter of a percent or a small percentage. It's like buying stocks, essentially. It's like, you know, like the Robin Hood from music. So we're starting to see that and the blockchain technology that the whole infrastructure is built on because it's just more streamlined that way. And so like, we're moving to in the future when these platforms likely, book, coin and royal and the others like really start to break into mainstream is the fans are going to think, Oh, I have to learn cryptocurrency and I have to get a wallet and, you know, buy some of Ether, you know, from the Ethereum and buy some ether and like. You know, that is the heavy lift that why it prevented so many people from getting the NFTs. Like I want to learn how to do this and pay gas fees and blah, but like all the shit that it takes hours and hours and hours and hours just for one person to buy like one NFTs. It's like we're getting a little away from that and it's gonna be like a fan is like, oh, I'm gonna get 10% of royalties of Ari's new song and it's done in 10 seconds. And like they don't even know [00:36:33] DAN RUNCIE Yeah, it needs to be as easy as like buying something called the Amazon, right? Like it needs to be instant. And I think that I agree there. I think that was probably one of the biggest gaps for a while. There was all these things. And some of it I think is natural with any new technology. There is an adoption curve. It's always gonna track the enthusiast which at least in this recent era congregated mostly on Web 3 corners of Twitter and we're discussing things. So I think it's really smart, you know, for artists to, you know, jump in on Twitter spaces the way that they did. It was really interesting to hear that in a lot of ways yeah, they weren't even reaching, they're like die hard fans. They were just reaching people that were interested. But that said, I think so much of this rings true with something else that's a concept in your book, the purement of investment. And I think I look at this a lot of ways, almost like a inverted sales fund if you will, address in terms of building awareness, the decision intended and actually getting people to act on it and knowing that you can obviously generate revenue at each level of those streams. But NFTs, especially if they're used the way that they could is something that does sit at the tip of that pyramid. It's not gonna be everyone, but it is something to monetize the die hard fans that you have. But even there you could adjust where it sits based on what you price it, how many drops you have and so many other things. [00:40:02] ARI HERSTAND Absolutely, yes, the pyramid of investment on this concept that I have in the book, I'll just kind of break it down a little bit so people understand. It's like, you think about it, you know, this is financial investment. I also have a pyramid of engagement, which I'll get into a second, but what just investment at the bottom of that pyramid, we have the people that don't really spend any money on you directly, they might stream your song, they might stream your music, you might make a little bit of money from what their actions that they're taking like the stream of your music, but they're not like spending money on you directly. So that's the bottom of the pyramid and that's where the vast majority of the music of fans, audience, listenership lives just across the industry. But as we go up the pyramid, you know, then there's like, those that might attend your live stream and like tip you over that or they might just like tip you here and there and you know, in the digital realm, sure, it's a live stream, it's on Twitch, or whatever, or like, you know, they can tip you in real life or something, they're going to your shows and they'll tip you. So it's like the tippers essentially, then you go up a little bit higher, that people are actually buying tickets to your shows. Now they are actually directing money directly to you and they're coming to your concerts, they're your ticket buyers, your concert goers, then you look a level higher, they're the merch buyers. They're the ones that buy merch at those shows or buy merch online, but you know, your store or from your Spotify profile or whenever they're buying merch directly from you, they're like, I'm a real fan, I want to buy merch. Then we go higher and then we're into that category of fan clubs, crowdfunding campaigns, you know, investment, NFT, three point, you know, with that whole realm of like, I'm like such a big fan that if they're on Patreon, I'm going to be their patron. If they're running a Kickstarter, I'm going to back their Kickstarter. If they're selling a percentage of their royalties of the new song, I want to buy that. And then at the very tippy tippy top of that, it's kind of a little bit of out too, but it's like those that are buying the VIP packages. So it's kind of like a combination of it all. It's like that, am I going to, you know, go to the show and I spend the $250, you know, do a 10 sound check and get the merch package and do that whole thing. So it's like that's all at the top. And so you think about this as the pyramid of investment, you're going to have fans at every level of that and you want to make sure that you cater to all of them and that you don't exclude some. So it's like, you know, I think people can kind of have understood this concept when, like, I first got this like six, seven years ago when Patreon kind started to hit after Kickstarter. And I saw some of my friends that were running Patreon campaigns and Kickstarter campaigns, I know simultaneously. And to me, that seemed counterintuitive. I was like, wait a minute, your fans are only going to do one or the other. It's like, they're going to either back your crowd and bring you an album or they're going to be your patrons, right? No, I was wrong. What it was, was really like Kickstarter was below on that pyramid. There were more people that are willing to drop a hundred bucks this one time, this one year to back your Kickstarter, but then there's fewer people a little bit higher up on that pyramid that are going to pay you $10 a month on Patreon or Substack or whatever it's going to be, Band Camp, any subscriber service that are a level higher that will be your subscribers and then it just kind of keeps going up from there. [00:40:28] DAN RUNCIE Yeah, I think that makes sense. And the thing that I've often thought about the model too is that of course the revenue that you get per fan does increase as you go further up that period. But if you were to multiply that by the number of fans in each of those tiers, do you think that the tiers do start to equal out roughly or what does that look like for you? [00:41:39] ARI HERSTAND That's a really great question. I don't really need data to back that up, but that's a really great experiment and something that should be studied, I think like an artist that kind of, yeah, I'm going to work on putting those numbers together. That's a great idea. It's kind of like along the lines of the Thousand True Fans Concept, where this concept is, you know, they say that if you can get a thousand people to pay you $100 a year every year for the rest of your life, rest of your career, now you have a career and that's all you really need is a thousand people to pay you $100. However, if you break that down a little bit differently on the government of investment, you don't need the thousand people to pay you $100. You could get a hundred people to pay you $400, you could get 200 people to pay you $200. You could get, you know, 400 people to pay $50, you could get 700 people to pay you $20 a year, you know, and you could really break that down a little bit differently. And so it's like, how are you going to get to that $100,000 a year mark if that's your goal or a million dollars a year, if that's your goal. And it all these fans are going to fall somewhere. All this money is going to fall somewhere on that pyramid of investment. [00:43:12] DAN RUNCIE Yeah. I think about it this way too, maybe from like an example perspective. Let's look at someone at the top. Look at someone like Beyonce. I could see her. I would need to do the math. But let's just say ballpark speaking, she gets $30 million a year revenue from her music, right? Purely from streaming. I could also see her getting $30 million a year from, let's say she does a few concerts that year or a few special one offs. She could also get $30 million a year from doing two private shows of performing at a wedding or something like that or performing at an Uber private event. So each of those things can equal that amount. But yeah, I think that way to break down the thousand true fans, I think is important too. Because I think when that theory came out, Kevin Kelly's, I think it's back in 2018, but it made a bunch of sense. But I think for most people putting things out, yeah, even that requires a bit of segmentation there. So it's fascinating. And I'm sure so much of this is fascinating for you as well. Because I feel like you kind of have two examples of this with the businesses that you're running. You have Ari Herstand, the artist and you have your own, pure, mid of investment. You also have your visit of this podcast, the courses and the book as well. And for you, I'm sure I know you have a team that helps with each of these things, but do you look at it any differently between the two, you know, yourself as an educator that is sharing this information combined with yourself as the musician? [00:49:10] ARI HERSTAND Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Like, I think, you know, why people have responded to the artist take business and my book and the artist take account of me and the music, the podcast and all the stuff that like, I do on the music business education front is because I am a musician. I have that musician's empathy. I've, you know, lived it and living it and it's like, I understand how hard everything is. It's like, you know, I'm not just saying it to say it like NN because I read it somewhere. Like, I'm living it. I'm interviewing people that are living it. You know, I put on two different hats like I look at myself almost now as like part journalists and like kind of, you know, in the lane that you're in where by interviewing more people, we learn more and that's great. Like, I know my perspective and everyone's perspective can be limited to their own experiences. So I try to widen my experiences by widening my information base by talking to more people. So the whole point of the podcast honestly was just to talk to more people, smarter people than me that are doing bigger things and more successfully than I was doing. So I could learn from them and then share that information. Like I've always interviewed people from like artist take and writing for other publications and I then made the podcast basically public. With my own music career, you know, the intentions have shifted. But when I started Ari's take as a blog 10 years ago, I made 100% of my money from my music. I was like a full-time artist, touring artist releasing music, all that stuff like touring most of my year, going on plenty of national tours. The intentions have shifted when I realized where I can be most useful and necessary. So like I don't tour anymore. You know, I'll do one-offs here in there. Like when I'm with my new funk project, Rasmentisdrake, it's like I do in a kind of an immersive funk experience. And I want to keep that in one place like we did in L.A. in like last summer, we did, you know, a 16-show run in L.A.. That's like my creative outlet. Like I do in the intentions of that, I want to top the Spotify charts and like go on tour. So like why I keep going back to like what are the intentions for every artist is like they're different. So my intention for that was like I wanted to sell out all those 16 shows and like that was my own function for the off thing. Or I wanted to at least, you know, get people a good experience and have a good time doing these things. Like I released a solo album last year under my own name. And the intention of that was honestly not I want to go on tour or I want to, you know, and get millions of streams. It was just like I went through a break out and I needed to write these songs and release them for my own mental health and just like honestly just for my own well-being and like get these songs out there. And people connected with them. And that was wonderful. And like I heard from tons of people that really resonated with the songs. Like that was something that you know gave me some perspective to is like, my focus right now is not making a living just for my soul of singer songwriter project like it used to be. That being said, there's a place for everything. And so, you know, I covered this concept of like the multi-hyphenate. Everyone's a multi-hyphenate. Everyone from Beyonce down to me and any other indie artist that is working at a day job or whatever, everyone's a multi-hyphenate. Like, your job title can start with musician and then it can be, you know, what else? Like, some people are musician, lift drivers. Some people are, you know, musician, entrepreneur, CEOs like, you know, Dre as Beaks, headphones is like, oh, he's an entrepreneur and a business person. And so it's like, I don't think the artists need to feel like shameful or insecure about their other hyphenates, their other job titles. You know, at the end of the day, you want to do what inspires you. And so for me, you know, my idea of success is making a living, supporting the kind of lifestyle that I'd like to live doing what I love and offering value and meanings to people. And so I've kind of structured my own life in a way where I go to where I feel like I'm needed and then where I can bring value to people. And that I've found, you know, most useful in kind of the artist take blame and the music business lane of everything I'm doing. But at the same time, like, I'm an artist. Like, I'm never not going to be an artist. Like, that's just like who I am. That's like what my soul is. And so it's like, I can't ever stop doing that. Like if I don't want to force myself to ring out as much money from that, there's no shame in that. Like that's, you know, sure, you know, I always say it was all the time to be, it was like, if you're happy making music from home and putting it online and you're making like 50 grand a year by doing that. And that's like what you figured out how to do. You've got some same theory, you're on some ads, you got some streaming, whatever. And like you're doing that and you're happy. Wonderful. Could you make a hundred, 200, 300,000 dollars more if you like one on tour or up your merch operation or like, you know, started a Patreon or launch an NFT or something like that? Maybe. But do you have to? But no, of course not. Like do what makes you happy. Like if that's going to make you unhappy because you're chasing more money and like why? Like you don't need to do that. Like do what makes you happy. And that's the big thing. And so it's like, you know, I'm constantly figuring that out for myself and I encourage other artists that figure it out for themselves. [00:49:30] DAN RUNCIE Yeah. And I think that's a good way to put it, right? There's so much action now. You know, there's so many opportunities in everywhere. It isn't multi-high fit. It is really up to you how many hyphens you have behind that name and how heavily you want to push all of them. And I think the other one for you is author. And of course you have this book coming out in a couple of weeks. So yeah, before we let you go, let me just do one more close to let people know the updates with the book and when to expect. [00:50:05] ARI HERSTAND Yeah. So It is out January 17th, 2023. You can get it wherever you find books with its Amazon or Barnes and Noble or your local bookstore. And I don't know when this is airing or gonna go live, but if you're in L.A. on January 17th, join me at Barnes and Noble up at Grove and we're doing a book signing and a live podcast recording there. But yeah, I've added a hundred new pages to it. I've updated stuff in every section. I've rewritten chapters, but scratch, of course. A lot of stuff we talked about today is in the book like NFTs and Web 3 and TikTok and live streaming. A lot of stuff that didn't exist three years ago. So I've completely rewritten the majority of the book. So you know, if you have the first or second edition of the book, I encourage you to check out this third edition. It's very, very different and updated. [00:50:46] DAN RUNCIE Good stuff, man. Excited for you. Thanks for coming on. This is great.  {00:50:50] ARI HERSTAND Thank you.  {00:50:54] DAN RUNCIE OUTRO If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and give a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. I had a great chat about the future of streaming and more with Ari Herstand, who isan independent artist who also runs Ari’s Take, an education business to teach others artists about the industry. He just released the third edition of his book, How To Make It In the New Music Business.


Ari joined me to discuss how artists are navigating new music releases. It's increasingly getting out of the artist’s hands in favor of the uncontrollable algorithms powering the likes of Spotify and TikTok. Ari says it’s like, “playing the lottery.” 


While algorithms are taking the human element out of music discovery, that human touch has found itself into new artist monetization tools like NFTs. It has inverted what Ari calls an artist’s “pyramid of investment” for an artist growing their fanbase.


Ari and I covered a lot of ground on this episode. Here’s what you can expect to hear from us:


[3:10] Waterfall release method infiltrating Spotify

[8:15] Music discovery power shifting away from human, toward algorithms 

[11:40] DSP’s purposely pulling power away from playlist editors

[19:21] TikTok isn’t for every artist

[21:26] Evolving team structure of an indie artist 

[27:55] Role of music NFTs

[31:44] How Sammy Arriaga sold $250k of NFTs to non-fans

[40:02] The Pyramid of investment 

[49:10] Ari the musician vs. Ari the educator 

[50:05] Updated version of How To Make It In New Music Business book



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Ari Herstand, @ariherstand


Learn more about Ari's book, How to Make It in the New Music Business here: https://book.aristake.com


Learn more about Ari's Take here: https://aristake.com/


This week’s sponsor is Laylo. Join artists like Kodak Black, Sam Smith, and others who notify their fans instantly when they drop merch, tickets, and more. Create your own drop page for free in seconds at laylo.com


Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital


Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.


TRANSCRIPTION


[00:00:00] ARI HERSTAND

I'm not a good recording engineer and I'm not a producer. So that's another team member that I'm going to hire when I make a record. Like I'm not Finneas. I'm not going to make a record in my bedroom. Like I can't do that. And that's not what I want to do. Like honestly, that doesn't inspire me. What inspires me is to make music with other people.


[00:00:26] DAN RUNCIE INTRO

Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.


[00:01:36] DAN RUNCIE

Today's episode is a playbook for all the indie artists out there. I had a great conversation with Ari Herstand, who is a musician himself, and he's also the founder of Ari's Take, which is his education business that focuses on how artists can make it today, especially indie artists. How indie artists can make it today in the new music business. And that's actually the title of the third edition of this upcoming book. Ari and I talked a lot about some of the new and updated insights that he has in this edition of the book, specifically around streaming, and how artists are starting to favor and prefer focusing on algorithms and how that can get them more listeners and where playlists currently sit with artists prioritizing them. And we also talk about NFTs, TikTok, and Ari's concept in the book called the Pyramid of Investment. This is a great conversation for anyone that wants to better understand the music industry, especially for the growing segment of independent artists that are carving their lanes out for themselves. Here's the episode. Hope you enjoy it.


[00:01:48] DAN RUNCIE

All right, today we are joined by Ari Herstand, who is the author of his new book that's coming out, how to make it in the new music business. He's an artist himself, and I was lucky enough to be a guest on his podcast a couple months back. So Ari, it's great to have you on. And congrats on the book coming up.


[00:02:06] ARI HERSTAND

Yeah, thanks, Dan. Thank you. Thank you. Very exciting. The third edition and get ramped up for that. But it's great to be here with you today. Thanks for having me.


[00:02:17] DAN RUNCIE

Yeah, definitely. And I know for you, one of the big topics of the book is just how artists continue to evolve with how they're releasing music, how they're paying attention to what's going on with streaming right now. I feel like you have a good vantage point for this because you're doing so much of this yourself with your own releases. What are some of the big changes? Because I know that everything post-pandemic has been a little different, and now we're heading into this new phase right now with the new year. What's the big thing for you that you're seeing with the evolution?


[00:09:07] ARI HERSTAND

Right. So every artist needs to ask themselves what their intentions are with their release. And so, you know, the beautiful thing about the new music business and the scary and daunting thing about the new music business is there really isn't a right or a wrong way to do anything. There is the right and wrong way for you. And that could be the wrong way for me. So everyone, you know, it's based on your intentions and what your goals are for the release. If we just go, you know, more in the mainstream realm or let's just say your intention is to be successful on Spotify. Because that's a metric that most artists these days are kind of using to gauge the success of their release. And they want to have the best chance of, you know, grabbing that Spotify, being being blessed by the Spotify God, I guess. So to do that, there is a very specific release strategy that has been studied and now tested and now used by everyone from Lizzo and Krungman to Maggie Rogers to Robert Glassberg. And that's the waterfall release method. And Indie artists, you know, that are just releasing their first few singles are using this as well. I mean, this is the waterfall release method. And I'll break this down a little bit on what this means. This has started to get used a few years ago, but it really picked up last year in 2022. And now 2023 is I think going to be the year of the waterfall. But basically what it is is that, you know, you release singles leading up to the album. That has been happening for years now. However, here's what gets a little bit more where where it gets a nuance on how those singles are released. It's you don't just release a single song anymore as a single. You release your first single one song. That's just the one song released one second now your second single is that the new song is track number one. And the previous single that you released is track number two. So it's technically your second single, but it's kind of like a two song album. If you really go that way, if you're tuning it up, if you're an artist is to the artist asking this all the time. Well, how do I do this in my district? back end or whatever, like doing it's a two song album. And the way that the streams maintain for the previous single and that you don't lose your playlist inclusion, all that stuff is you use the same highest or C number. And so it's if you use the same highest or C number that used when you released that track, a month prior, it will be identical stream counts. And then a month later, you release your third single, but that's now a three track album. You know track number one is the new single track number two is the single you release a month ago and track number three is the is the single you release two months ago. And as long again, use the same highest or C numbers, it'll be included in the same playlist. They will be identical tracks, wherever they're included on people's algorithm, personal playlists, all that stuff. You can do this. People are doing five or six singles that way. And then the album and this release method, you know, this could take eight months, essentially, if you want to do one single every four to six weeks, and then the album. How you can kind of look at it, is you're building the album. And so it doesn't have to go on order, you can pick whatever order you want based on your singles. And then the final album is the album order, no correlation doesn't have to be the single order, you can pick whatever order you want each time. The track art can be different each time. I've seen it, people do different single art for each release. I've seen people just use the album cover for every release. So you know, at the end, you might have like six singles released that each have a few different songs on them. And then the full album, some people pull those previous singles down. So if they want to get a clean discography going up there, you just have a final album at the end of the day. And the previous singles with like the two song album, a three-song album, the four-song album before they pull those down. But you're not going to lose any playlists, you're not going to lose any stream counts because you're using same iris to scene numbers each time. So that is a release method, and the reason people are doing it this way is for the Spotify algorithm because Spotify likes to have regular releases. And if you send somebody say, hey, here's my new song and you send them the link, they're going to listen to that song. Now, if there's nothing, no other songs following that song to listen to, after your song finishes, Spotify is going to recommend them something to listen to or they're going to jump off and listen to something else. Now, if you give them the songs to listen to that after your previous releases, they'll stick around and keep listening to it. So the reason people are doing this is for the Spotify algorithm, but also to keep their fans engaged. So like say, here's your single number four and they listen to it and like, oh, cool. What now? I'm going to go back to listening to my favorite artist. Unless you have singles three, two, and one also there. And like, oh, I'll just keep listening to the other songs on this essential playlist. You think of it, whatever you want, a four-song album, a four-song single, a playlist of your new singles. However, you want to think of it, the user is just thinking, oh, I'm clicking on this link or new music Friday, or I'm in my release radar. I see this new single come out by this new artist I like. And then Spotify is going to start to recommend those songs through the algorithm. And the best thing about continuing to release the and the waterfall method is like those previous singles stay included in release radar. So this is like what has been figured out by labels and managers and artists over the last few years. And based on what Spotify wants to see and basically what they're being rewarded for with the algorithm from Spotify. And you know, I think a few years ago, everybody was chasing the playlist editors and like, oh my gosh, if I can just get included in the rap caviar, then like I'm set forever. Whatever the playlist inclusion, the editorial playlists are not as powerful right now as the algorithmic playlists are. That is a big change. Is like three, four years ago, people were like, oh, it's all about the official editorial. Now you want to trigger that algorithm because that is now personalizing every single user's playlist based on what Spotify thinks that user likes to hear. And you want to get your songs included in that. And people are just letting Spotify feed them now based on the algorithm versus seeking out playlist


[00:09:27] DAN RUNCIE

And why do you think that that shift happened from the playlist prioritization to the algorithm? Was it something internal with Spotify or is it just a natural decline in the power of playlist?


{00:11:40] ARI HERSTAND

Yeah, I mean, the main thing is is let's think about what Spotify's intentions and goals are. Their goals are to keep users on their platform as long as possible. And they've discovered that if you feed users songs that they want to hear and have a higher success rate of them continuing to listen and stay on Spotify, then they're going to follow that. Then Spotify is going to do more of that. So they've been AB in this for years. They're like, OK, do people stick on our platform on Spotify longer by listening to our editorial playlists that human beings employed by Spotify are creating? Or do they stick on our platform longer by the algorithmic playlists that are internal robots are curating for them, the algorithm is curating for them. And what they found is that people are sticking around longer with the algorithmic playlists. So they're now doing more of that and realizing that this is what it is engaging users to stay on Spotify longer, because that's what users prefer. The algorithm has gotten a lot better at learning people's tastes, music tastes, than any singular playlist editor. And the other thing is, when we're talking about indie artists, is that why indie artists need to refocus their efforts into more of the algorithmic lane versus the editor lane, is that playlist editors, I mean, it's like playing the lottery to try to get an official Spotify editorial playlist. For one, with 100,000 songs being uploaded every day, you have a very, very hard chance of getting selected being one of those songs that is going to get included on. The very select few Spotify editorial playlist spots. But the algorithm, there's billions, literally billions of playlists that theoretically that they can put you on, or the algorithm will insert you into various people's radios or discover weekly or whatever. You have a much better chance of getting there. And then if users respond, well, do your song there. I mean, you pop up on someone's discover weekly, and they click save. I like this song. I want to hear more of it, and they don't skip it. That sends signals back to the Spotify algorithm, like, oh, this song is performing well. Let's try it in more algorithmic labels. Let's try it in more radio. Let's try it in more of these. And then theoretically, you'll just get included more and more, and then it'll just kind of snowball onto itself.


[00:12:46] DAN RUNCIE

Yeah, I think the algorithm getting better, that what you mentioned, is likely one of the big drivers of this, because if I think back to the days of, let's say, like the mid 2010s, the algorithm still felt a bit similar to those old Pandora algorithms where after the seventh song, you start hearing the same thing over and over. And if you're comparing that to, let's say, what Tuma Basa was doing at Rap Caviar at the time that, of course, yeah, I think Tuma is going to be the better curator of what you have. But if you're shifting things to now, where these algorithms just get better and better and better, then, and I think as well, over time, a lot of the playlist also had that alert. There was a bit of the, oh, this is the new radio. This is this, but then, yeah, when the playlist is better and better, even as a Spotify user over time, you can see that, okay, they do have a better sense for where things are. So naturally, it did shift the behavior. And I think you kind of saw this more broadly with, you know, outside of music as well, with movies or TV shows and other things. I think the algorithms do get better over time.


[00:16:02] ARI HERSTAND

Oh, absolutely. Yes, we're seeing that, you know, absolutely across the board with Netflix and Hulu and Prime and all that stuff. But, I mean, you bring up a good point about, you know, the human and the human playlist editors and what, you know, the power has shifted away from these playlist editors in part because Spotify is pulling the power from that. Because, you know, they're not giving the playlist editors free reign. It's kind of like if we can compare it to, you know, radio stations back on the day that the DJs had the power and they could play whatever they wanted. And that was like, you know, when the 70s and the 80s and maybe even a little bit into the 90s, you know, the DJs could play whatever they wanted. And they were all powerful because that's how people discovered music. Then Clear Channel took over and bought up all the radio stations and was like, oh, guess what? These are the only songs that you're allowed to play now. Here's the list. And then every week Clear Channel would update that list and send the list to all the DJs and say, you can choose, but you have to play these songs. So then the DJs became less powerful because that power was removed away from them by the overlords, which was the owners of the station, which was Clear Channel. The same thing has started to happen on Spotify. The editors used to be the all powerful DJs. They used to be all powerful playlist editors. Now they're overlords, they're owners, Spotify has come to them and be like, well, guess what? Your playlist is not keeping people on this, on Spotify and on the playlist long enough anymore. So you're only allowed to do three new songs a week. And in those three songs don't really perform well, then you're either gonna lose your job or you're not going to have the liberty to choose the song anymore. And of those three songs, they actually have to be from this list, which is the song that have already been pre-tested on the algorithmic side. So it's kind of like we see the same thing as it's like, instead of clear channel dictating the list based on their private marketing rooms and studies with surveys of listeners like they used to do when they would test songs with radio with market groups, now Spotify's testing songs with the algorithm and then they send those songs to the editors and be like, okay, these songs are proven. So when Tua was selecting the song for Rap Caviar, he was at the start of it. But as it got later on and on and what's happening with today's topics with Rap Caviar and all of them, he's just not one person anymore that's shooting. I mean, when Troy Carter was at Spotify and kind of in charge of all this, he said this and this was mind you four or five years ago, this was happening to them. It's like with those big, big playlists, he's like, it's no one person that is deciding this. These songs are tested and then we decide that it was going to go into those big playlists. But now that's happening on every playlist top to bottom.


[00:16:25] DAN RUNCIE

Right. And circling back to what you had said at the beginning that this, of course, is shifting artists to that focus on how they're releasing music, the waterfall strategy, but tweaking that specifically for what they're doing with singles leading up to the album. But I also have to assume that to a certain extent, some of this does become table stakes in that everyone, as you mentioned, is doing it that knows what they're doing right, whether it's you or it's Lizzo or others. So once that's kind of the lay of the land, are there additional things that, you know, artists that you're at least suggesting that artists should or shouldn't be doing or at that point does become more and more dependent on things that are independent of the release, whether it's the artists fandom, the quality of the music and so on.


[00:19:21] ARI HERSTAND

Absolutely. And this goes back to the intentions. And so, you know, it's no secret that in 2020, 2021, if even a bit last year in 2022, the Tiktok was, you know, a massive driver of streams. And so it's like, for some artists, that was where they found success. But, you know, and this is where we get into what are your intentions and who is your fan base? If you're making kind of straight ahead rock and roll, that's going to appeal to like 35 year old plus or you're making like throwback traditional R&B, that's similarly going to appeal to a 35 - 40 year old audience and up. Your marketing methods should not be Tiktok. So like if somebody's like, oh, you got to do a Tiktok, well, like, no, you don't have to do it. You know, you have to understand who your audience is, if your audience is on Tiktok, then maybe. And if your music that you make could be tiktokified, it's like, you know, it's like it's funny, you know, and all that and with Lizzo's song About Damn Time. You know, the thing that went viral on Tiktok was like the seven seconds of the first line of the second verse. It's like the most random shit that catches on Tiktok that you just like don't even know and oftentimes it's just like, you just never know what's going to catch or not. And it's like, so yes, Tiktok that can be a strategy. Absolutely. And it's like buying lottery tickets. So like the more you post, the more, you know, tickets that you're buying the higher profitability you have of something catching and then people using that bit, of course, there's deeper strategies that you can implore if you really want to study this. If you're like Tiktok is the method and the way that I want to go, totally like you can, you can work influencer marketing. That means, you know, get hundreds of influencers with varying audience sizes, micro influencers, macro, whatever kind of budget you have, pay them a little bit of money to use your song or your snippet of your song, your 15 seconds of your song in their video. Have everybody do it in the same week. And hopefully that gives you a chance that inspires more people to use that same 15 seconds in their videos. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. It's kind of like back in the day, you know, when labels would work a radio campaign and spend $300,000 on promoting a single at radio. Sometimes it worked. Sometimes you lost $300,000. And that's what we're seeing right now with influencer marketing campaigns because Tiktok is so fickle and random that you don't know if it's going to work. And if you spend $100,000 on an influencer market, so that is one way.


[00:19:38] DAN RUNCIE

Yeah, I think the Lizzo point is key with that because I know that she spent and her team spent a lot of time focused on trying to make that whole album special pop on Tiktok. So to your point, the fact that they probably thought it would have been the bad bitch of clock live but then ends up being a completely different line that ends up going completely viral because don't know how exactly it's gonna go but the fact that the team put in work means that something was able to pop there.


[00:21:26] ARI HERSTAND

The beauty of TikTok is that you can test and test and test and test and test for free, especially like indie artists are doing this all the time. So like yes, Lizzo has millions of dollars behind her and a full team of people that can do this. I'm seeing this with indie artists doing this all the time where they're just testing on their own, you know, they'll post a few videos a day or a week or whatever with different snippets of their line, of their songs rather, and seeing which ones respond best. And then like, oh, okay, it's this part of the song. Like, you know, if they were Lizzo, they were like, oh, it's the first line of the second verse responded better than the other previous 15 snippets that I posted over the last three weeks. So let me do 10 more videos of just that first line of the second verse and see if it was a fluke or if this is actually about a pattern that I'm on to something and they're like, oh, that is what's connecting. And like, oh my gosh, 20 people just posted videos using that the first line of the second verse and they're like, all right, let's keep doing that. And then you kind of, you know, this is how you discover what work is just trial and error, whether you have a label of, you know, 20 social media experts doing this and a million dollars behind it to like, throw gasoline on the fire by hiring influencers to do this. Or if you yourself and your best friend in your bedroom figuring this out, it's the same strategy.


[00:21:46] DAN RUNCIE

Yeah, that makes sense. And especially with the fact that Indie artists can tweak it, it is free to essentially tweak on TikTok. But I'm curious to hear your opinion on just how the Indie artists specifically can have the ideal team structure. Cause like we said, on one end, you have Lizzo's million dollars behind you on the other end, you have, yeah, it's you and maybe your friend can help you do this. But somewhere in the middle is that successful Indie artists that doesn't have the, you know, major record label resources, but it's still tweaking things. So even if we think a bit more broader than social media, what does that team look like? Like maybe even for yourself, like what does that team structure look like to make sure you have all the pieces in place to run a successful Indie business?


[00:27:12] ARI HERSTAND

Totally. I mean, it's a great question. And I talk about this in the book. I've updated the new team. I call it the new team. Because there's been the traditional team that's been around for decades. And that's what everybody understands. Like your art manager, your personal manager, your record label, your booking agent, your publicist, your attorney, you know, a publisher like this. That's the traditional team that, you know, you'll read about in the other music business both written by lawyers that were written 30 years ago. Most in the industry on that level, they haven't really updated that team. But when it really comes down to what we're looking about in the new music business with Indie artists, especially before you get those big players on your team, you still have to run your own business yourself. And sometimes we've seen a lot of NDRs that don't ever want a record label. And that's totally fine. So, you don't need that scene, remember necessarily. But what you do need is to be putting out regular content that's representative of who you are as an artist. And so what does that require? Well, it requires video content. Okay, you need someone on your team that can make really good video content. If that's you, cool. But sometimes it's not the artist. And so having someone on the team that's good at video, videographer, whatever, an editor, that is a key number of the new team that is extremely necessary. Say with a photographer, you know, it's really important to kind of have regular, new high quality photos or any kind of photos, whether it's your, you know, candid photos when you're around, when you're on tour, photos from the stage, from behind you with the audience there showing what you're about, promo photos, press photos. So like a photographer. It doesn't need to be a full time member on the team, but I think doing regular photoshoots and having people that are regularly pumping out photos. Again, it doesn't need to be as formal as like a record label or a team member like that. It's like, oh, you're my best friend. You have a new iPhone and you're really good at taking photos. Let's like take a lot of photos all the time and continue to post them. And that counts too, you know, and same with like a designer, like a graphic designer, you know, there's so many used cases where graphic design is gonna be necessary, whether it's designing your album cover or it's merch items or it's show posters or, you know, any other cases where you need something design. Again, it doesn't need to be a full time member of the team. It could be someone you enlist over Upwork that you hire to do that or it could be a friend of yours. That wants to help out. And then there's this role that I call the digital specialist. And, you know, managers and labels of column, it's like, are they calling digital? They're a digital person and it's like, oh, you know, we're going to send it over to digital. Basically, what that is, is like they specialize in social media advertising. This is something that is is really crucial when it comes to the release strategy that we're talking about previously. Virtually every single record label, it be label up to the majors down to individual artists that are releasing music on their own on that have a little bit of a budget are now running social media ads. It takes a lot of time to learn all this and it's a specialty for sure whether you're running ads on, you know, via the meta ads manager with Instagram and Facebook or Tiktok ads manager, YouTube, Google ads, all that stuff. That's what a digital specialist can do and then they kind of monitor everything and then they gather all the assets and then they help kind of guide the strategy. And so all this being said is like these are team members that are important to every indie artists career right now. They don't need to be individual people that handle these roles. I've seen indie artists that do all these roles themselves and they're their own team right now and that's cool. If they can figure that out for me personally like I know that I'm not a good recording engineer and I'm not a producer. So that's another team member that I'm going to hire when I make a record like I'm not Finneas. I'm not going to make a record in my bedroom. Like I can't do that. That's not what I want to do. Like honestly that doesn't inspire me. What inspires me is to make music with other people. So like I'm the type of artist that I'll get into a studio with eight other musicians and we'll track something live, you know, and like that's what I like doing them inspires me. But I need a producer. I need an engineer. I need a mixing engineer. I need a mastering engineer. These are all team members that I might enlist for that one recording. You know, but other people like Finneas was Billie Eilish's first team member. And he was her recording engineer and producer and like she had that built-in team where they could be pumping out music to Soundcloud regularly early on. Whereas like a lot of artists don't have that but some do. It's like again, what are your intentions? What inspires you? What kind of music do you want to make? But there are certain roles that can be filled by either your brother in down the hall, in the bedroom or by someone halfway around the world and Upwork. But these are the roles that can be filled and the jobs that need to get done.


[00:27:55] DAN RUNCIE

That makes sense. I know another thing for these teams is someone that is always keeping their eye on the new big thing or the new small thing to be able to test out just being able to figure out what's there. And the past couple of years, Web 3 and NFT specifically have guy and even more traction and I think maybe in the most recent year got a little bit less traction to just a more overall transaction level. But as we're heading into 2023 now, how do you look at NFTs as part of your strategy and how do you look at Web 3 more broadly for what artists are doing and any examples that you may have of like yes, this person that is an indie artist that wasn't just a mature artist like did it and they've done it really well.


[00:31:44] ARI HERSTAND

Absolutely. I don't see Web 3 slowing down anytime soon. I still see that this is as a digital society is heading. It's evolving for sure. Bitcoin isn't kind of what is all encompassing anymore like it was five - six years ago. It's not even just the mouth crypto currencies and it's not even just about NFTs like NFTs. The reason that it's lost a lot of its initial luster and sheen is because when it first kind of caught on, you know, early 2021 or so. It was like that was the sexy new thing that nobody quite understood but once you got it you're like well, this is crazy at the digital collectible.Cool I collected playing cards when I was growing up, I get it, sweet, that's what this is the digital collectible one of one okay cool I understand it so that was like. And people are trying to find used cases like you know we initially heard about Kings of Leon was like one of the first that did like an NFT album and they tied you know physical experiences to their NFTs like you get front row tickets that you were one of the NFT holders for life and you could redeem the NFT for proper tickets. So that was like the first way by say now we're seeing is more used cases and people that are creating them independently so like I had on the podcast on my podcast the name is Business Podcast. Sammy Arriaga, he's a Latin country artist and he's a really great, really cool crossover artist. He is a country musician but it's kind of with Latin infused country music it's really cool. He had a deal with Sony, he was signed to Sony as an artist and any of the publishing deal for a while they you got dropped up. It wasn't up to the major label success standards that they were hoping for. I got dropped. Then he actually had a little bit of success on TikTok in like 2020 and then he pivoted to NFT's in 2022 actually, I believe. And just cut to the headline, he made over $250,000 on his NFT of his album or actually of his song. Just one song to be honest. And how he did it, what was really interesting, it wasn't because of his fan base because the vast majority of music fans right now still have not come around to NFTs. They're not really in the metaverse. They're not in the crypto web 3 community yet. But the web 3 community is still very, very strong. It is thriving and kicking. If you can tap into that, then you can actually have a lot of success there right now, currently today. Now in five years, I do believe that most music fans, there will be used cases and every artist will have something to do with NFTs and Web 3 and micro and bastine which I'll get to in a second. But what Sammy did was he went to that Web 3 community and where do they primarily? Just at the time and still really is on Twitter and specifically Twitter spaces. What he did is he went into these Twitter spaces rooms. These are like the audio, Twitter spaces, the audio, new version of clubhouse and any space that was talking about NFTs and Web 3, he'd pop in, he'd listen for a little bit and then he'd raise his hand and I asked to come up and speak. They'd invite him to speak and he's like, hey, guys, you've been talking about NFTs for the last hour. I play you a song that I wrote, actually about an NFTs and it's called Metagirl and it's a META Metaverse Metagirl and they're like, oh, okay. So essentially, then he played the song. He's like, you can actually get that song right now as an NFT, the links in my, you know, pin the link right here and they were like pin the link in the Twitter space and that's how we did it. And he made $250,000 just from doing essentially by busking on Twitter spaces.


[00:32:18] DAN RUNCIE

How many Twitter spaces did he do to make that happen? 


[00:35:05] ARI HERSTAND

It was a lot, you know, because some of the 100 people, some of the 1000 people, but you did it for a while and like, that's a way, you know, that's not a scalable method necessarily that I'm encouraging people to like go busking on Twitter spaces and make an NFT. But he was able to do that and by finding that community, now, you know, Baratay is another indie artist. She was one of the first to kind of start experimenting on NFT platforms and selling NFTs. What she also did early on that we're now starting to see more widely adopted was she not only would release NFTs tied to her songs, but she would tie royalties to the NFTs, meaning you don't just buy an NFT as a digital collectible that you're hoping to resell and make a little money on. You're actually buying a percentage of ownership of the song or like a royalties as I should say of the song. So like she had one time, you know, auctioned off, I guess, you know, and it was through a blockchain platform. I believe she used royal at the time, which is NAS's platform. She like gave away 40% or sold 40% of one of her songs to people. So you could buy whatever percentage you wanted and it was valued at a certain level. And then you can buy that. Now, those platforms are starting to pop up like I'm on the advisory board of label coin and they're a new platform that, you know, started by a booking agent, Mark Miller, who I've known for years. And he approached me and he's like, Hey, here's what we're doing. And it's essentially it is the same concept. Using blockchain technology, but essentially being able to sell a percentage of royalties for your song. So you could theoretically like say, I'm going to sell 50% of the royalties of my song. And it's like, I'm going to sell it to a thousand people. So you could buy like, you know, a half a percent or a quarter of a percent or a small percentage. It's like buying stocks, essentially. It's like, you know, like the Robin Hood from music. So we're starting to see that and the blockchain technology that the whole infrastructure is built on because it's just more streamlined that way. And so like, we're moving to in the future when these platforms likely, book, coin and royal and the others like really start to break into mainstream is the fans are going to think, Oh, I have to learn cryptocurrency and I have to get a wallet and, you know, buy some of Ether, you know, from the Ethereum and buy some ether and like. You know, that is the heavy lift that why it prevented so many people from getting the NFTs. Like I want to learn how to do this and pay gas fees and blah, but like all the shit that it takes hours and hours and hours and hours just for one person to buy like one NFTs. It's like we're getting a little away from that and it's gonna be like a fan is like, oh, I'm gonna get 10% of royalties of Ari's new song and it's done in 10 seconds. And like they don't even know


[00:36:33] DAN RUNCIE

Yeah, it needs to be as easy as like buying something called the Amazon, right? Like it needs to be instant. And I think that I agree there. I think that was probably one of the biggest gaps for a while. There was all these things. And some of it I think is natural with any new technology. There is an adoption curve. It's always gonna track the enthusiast which at least in this recent era congregated mostly on Web 3 corners of Twitter and we're discussing things. So I think it's really smart, you know, for artists to, you know, jump in on Twitter spaces the way that they did. It was really interesting to hear that in a lot of ways yeah, they weren't even reaching, they're like die hard fans. They were just reaching people that were interested. But that said, I think so much of this rings true with something else that's a concept in your book, the purement of investment. And I think I look at this a lot of ways, almost like a inverted sales fund if you will, address in terms of building awareness, the decision intended and actually getting people to act on it and knowing that you can obviously generate revenue at each level of those streams. But NFTs, especially if they're used the way that they could is something that does sit at the tip of that pyramid. It's not gonna be everyone, but it is something to monetize the die hard fans that you have. But even there you could adjust where it sits based on what you price it, how many drops you have and so many other things.


[00:40:02] ARI HERSTAND

Absolutely, yes, the pyramid of investment on this concept that I have in the book, I'll just kind of break it down a little bit so people understand. It's like, you think about it, you know, this is financial investment. I also have a pyramid of engagement, which I'll get into a second, but what just investment at the bottom of that pyramid, we have the people that don't really spend any money on you directly, they might stream your song, they might stream your music, you might make a little bit of money from what their actions that they're taking like the stream of your music, but they're not like spending money on you directly. So that's the bottom of the pyramid and that's where the vast majority of the music of fans, audience, listenership lives just across the industry. But as we go up the pyramid, you know, then there's like, those that might attend your live stream and like tip you over that or they might just like tip you here and there and you know, in the digital realm, sure, it's a live stream, it's on Twitch, or whatever, or like, you know, they can tip you in real life or something, they're going to your shows and they'll tip you. So it's like the tippers essentially, then you go up a little bit higher, that people are actually buying tickets to your shows. Now they are actually directing money directly to you and they're coming to your concerts, they're your ticket buyers, your concert goers, then you look a level higher, they're the merch buyers. They're the ones that buy merch at those shows or buy merch online, but you know, your store or from your Spotify profile or whenever they're buying merch directly from you, they're like, I'm a real fan, I want to buy merch. Then we go higher and then we're into that category of fan clubs, crowdfunding campaigns, you know, investment, NFT, three point, you know, with that whole realm of like, I'm like such a big fan that if they're on Patreon, I'm going to be their patron. If they're running a Kickstarter, I'm going to back their Kickstarter. If they're selling a percentage of their royalties of the new song, I want to buy that. And then at the very tippy tippy top of that, it's kind of a little bit of out too, but it's like those that are buying the VIP packages. So it's kind of like a combination of it all. It's like that, am I going to, you know, go to the show and I spend the $250, you know, do a 10 sound check and get the merch package and do that whole thing. So it's like that's all at the top. And so you think about this as the pyramid of investment, you're going to have fans at every level of that and you want to make sure that you cater to all of them and that you don't exclude some. So it's like, you know, I think people can kind of have understood this concept when, like, I first got this like six, seven years ago when Patreon kind started to hit after Kickstarter. And I saw some of my friends that were running Patreon campaigns and Kickstarter campaigns, I know simultaneously. And to me, that seemed counterintuitive. I was like, wait a minute, your fans are only going to do one or the other. It's like, they're going to either back your crowd and bring you an album or they're going to be your patrons, right? No, I was wrong. What it was, was really like Kickstarter was below on that pyramid. There were more people that are willing to drop a hundred bucks this one time, this one year to back your Kickstarter, but then there's fewer people a little bit higher up on that pyramid that are going to pay you $10 a month on Patreon or Substack or whatever it's going to be, Band Camp, any subscriber service that are a level higher that will be your subscribers and then it just kind of keeps going up from there.


[00:40:28] DAN RUNCIE

Yeah, I think that makes sense. And the thing that I've often thought about the model too is that of course the revenue that you get per fan does increase as you go further up that period. But if you were to multiply that by the number of fans in each of those tiers, do you think that the tiers do start to equal out roughly or what does that look like for you?


[00:41:39] ARI HERSTAND

That's a really great question. I don't really need data to back that up, but that's a really great experiment and something that should be studied, I think like an artist that kind of, yeah, I'm going to work on putting those numbers together. That's a great idea. It's kind of like along the lines of the Thousand True Fans Concept, where this concept is, you know, they say that if you can get a thousand people to pay you $100 a year every year for the rest of your life, rest of your career, now you have a career and that's all you really need is a thousand people to pay you $100. However, if you break that down a little bit differently on the government of investment, you don't need the thousand people to pay you $100. You could get a hundred people to pay you $400, you could get 200 people to pay you $200. You could get, you know, 400 people to pay $50, you could get 700 people to pay you $20 a year, you know, and you could really break that down a little bit differently. And so it's like, how are you going to get to that $100,000 a year mark if that's your goal or a million dollars a year, if that's your goal. And it all these fans are going to fall somewhere. All this money is going to fall somewhere on that pyramid of investment.


[00:43:12] DAN RUNCIE

Yeah. I think about it this way too, maybe from like an example perspective. Let's look at someone at the top. Look at someone like Beyonce. I could see her. I would need to do the math. But let's just say ballpark speaking, she gets $30 million a year revenue from her music, right? Purely from streaming. I could also see her getting $30 million a year from, let's say she does a few concerts that year or a few special one offs. She could also get $30 million a year from doing two private shows of performing at a wedding or something like that or performing at an Uber private event. So each of those things can equal that amount. But yeah, I think that way to break down the thousand true fans, I think is important too. Because I think when that theory came out, Kevin Kelly's, I think it's back in 2018, but it made a bunch of sense. But I think for most people putting things out, yeah, even that requires a bit of segmentation there. So it's fascinating. And I'm sure so much of this is fascinating for you as well. Because I feel like you kind of have two examples of this with the businesses that you're running. You have Ari Herstand, the artist and you have your own, pure, mid of investment. You also have your visit of this podcast, the courses and the book as well. And for you, I'm sure I know you have a team that helps with each of these things, but do you look at it any differently between the two, you know, yourself as an educator that is sharing this information combined with yourself as the musician?


[00:49:10] ARI HERSTAND

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Like, I think, you know, why people have responded to the artist take business and my book and the artist take account of me and the music, the podcast and all the stuff that like, I do on the music business education front is because I am a musician. I have that musician's empathy. I've, you know, lived it and living it and it's like, I understand how hard everything is. It's like, you know, I'm not just saying it to say it like NN because I read it somewhere. Like, I'm living it. I'm interviewing people that are living it. You know, I put on two different hats like I look at myself almost now as like part journalists and like kind of, you know, in the lane that you're in where by interviewing more people, we learn more and that's great. Like, I know my perspective and everyone's perspective can be limited to their own experiences. So I try to widen my experiences by widening my information base by talking to more people. So the whole point of the podcast honestly was just to talk to more people, smarter people than me that are doing bigger things and more successfully than I was doing. So I could learn from them and then share that information. Like I've always interviewed people from like artist take and writing for other publications and I then made the podcast basically public. With my own music career, you know, the intentions have shifted. But when I started Ari's take as a blog 10 years ago, I made 100% of my money from my music. I was like a full-time artist, touring artist releasing music, all that stuff like touring most of my year, going on plenty of national tours. The intentions have shifted when I realized where I can be most useful and necessary. So like I don't tour anymore. You know, I'll do one-offs here in there. Like when I'm with my new funk project, Rasmentisdrake, it's like I do in a kind of an immersive funk experience. And I want to keep that in one place like we did in L.A. in like last summer, we did, you know, a 16-show run in L.A.. That's like my creative outlet. Like I do in the intentions of that, I want to top the Spotify charts and like go on tour. So like why I keep going back to like what are the intentions for every artist is like they're different. So my intention for that was like I wanted to sell out all those 16 shows and like that was my own function for the off thing. Or I wanted to at least, you know, get people a good experience and have a good time doing these things. Like I released a solo album last year under my own name. And the intention of that was honestly not I want to go on tour or I want to, you know, and get millions of streams. It was just like I went through a break out and I needed to write these songs and release them for my own mental health and just like honestly just for my own well-being and like get these songs out there. And people connected with them. And that was wonderful. And like I heard from tons of people that really resonated with the songs. Like that was something that you know gave me some perspective to is like, my focus right now is not making a living just for my soul of singer songwriter project like it used to be. That being said, there's a place for everything. And so, you know, I covered this concept of like the multi-hyphenate. Everyone's a multi-hyphenate. Everyone from Beyonce down to me and any other indie artist that is working at a day job or whatever, everyone's a multi-hyphenate. Like, your job title can start with musician and then it can be, you know, what else? Like, some people are musician, lift drivers. Some people are, you know, musician, entrepreneur, CEOs like, you know, Dre as Beaks, headphones is like, oh, he's an entrepreneur and a business person. And so it's like, I don't think the artists need to feel like shameful or insecure about their other hyphenates, their other job titles. You know, at the end of the day, you want to do what inspires you. And so for me, you know, my idea of success is making a living, supporting the kind of lifestyle that I'd like to live doing what I love and offering value and meanings to people. And so I've kind of structured my own life in a way where I go to where I feel like I'm needed and then where I can bring value to people. And that I've found, you know, most useful in kind of the artist take blame and the music business lane of everything I'm doing. But at the same time, like, I'm an artist. Like, I'm never not going to be an artist. Like, that's just like who I am. That's like what my soul is. And so it's like, I can't ever stop doing that. Like if I don't want to force myself to ring out as much money from that, there's no shame in that. Like that's, you know, sure, you know, I always say it was all the time to be, it was like, if you're happy making music from home and putting it online and you're making like 50 grand a year by doing that. And that's like what you figured out how to do. You've got some same theory, you're on some ads, you got some streaming, whatever. And like you're doing that and you're happy. Wonderful. Could you make a hundred, 200, 300,000 dollars more if you like one on tour or up your merch operation or like, you know, started a Patreon or launch an NFT or something like that? Maybe. But do you have to? But no, of course not. Like do what makes you happy. Like if that's going to make you unhappy because you're chasing more money and like why? Like you don't need to do that. Like do what makes you happy. And that's the big thing. And so it's like, you know, I'm constantly figuring that out for myself and I encourage other artists that figure it out for themselves.


[00:49:30] DAN RUNCIE

Yeah. And I think that's a good way to put it, right? There's so much action now. You know, there's so many opportunities in everywhere. It isn't multi-high fit. It is really up to you how many hyphens you have behind that name and how heavily you want to push all of them. And I think the other one for you is author. And of course you have this book coming out in a couple of weeks. So yeah, before we let you go, let me just do one more close to let people know the updates with the book and when to expect.


[00:50:05] ARI HERSTAND

Yeah. So It is out January 17th, 2023. You can get it wherever you find books with its Amazon or Barnes and Noble or your local bookstore. And I don't know when this is airing or gonna go live, but if you're in L.A. on January 17th, join me at Barnes and Noble up at Grove and we're doing a book signing and a live podcast recording there. But yeah, I've added a hundred new pages to it. I've updated stuff in every section. I've rewritten chapters, but scratch, of course. A lot of stuff we talked about today is in the book like NFTs and Web 3 and TikTok and live streaming. A lot of stuff that didn't exist three years ago. So I've completely rewritten the majority of the book. So you know, if you have the first or second edition of the book, I encourage you to check out this third edition. It's very, very different and updated.


[00:50:46] DAN RUNCIE

Good stuff, man. Excited for you. Thanks for coming on. This is great. 



{00:50:50] ARI HERSTAND

Thank you. 


{00:50:54] DAN RUNCIE OUTRO

If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and give a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 3191 no How Diddy is Underestimated as a Businessman https://www.trapital.com/podcast Sean “Diddy” Combs is one of hip-hop’s most serial entrepreneurs. His business track record stretches 30 years with successes in completely-different industries — music (Bad Boys Records), clothing (Sean John), spirits (Ciroc and DeLeon), media (Revolt), among many other ventures. To take a closer look at Combs' empire, I brought on Tarik Brooks, who is the president of Combs Enterprises.  Many chalk up Diddy’s entrepreneurial success to his influence and brand alone. While Tarik doesn’t deny Diddy’s star power, he also argues that line of thinking understates Diddy’s business acumen — his ability to spot trends, attract talent, raise capital, and so forth.  Not only that, but the broadness of Combs Enterprises is a unique competitive advantage. Diddy’s different businesses across sectors give them unique data points that can drive decision-making. The group announced a new foray into cannabis in late 2022. However, they won’t enter the space completely void of knowledge. Using insights from Revolt or Ciroc, they can glean how customers think about cannabis already.    Tarik and I dove deep into Diddy’s sprawling business empire this episode — the “why” not the “how” behind Puff’s success. Here’s what you can expect to hear:  [0:00] Combs Enterprises’ focus in 2023 [2:22] Synergies between Diddy’s different businesses  [4:40] Using Revolt Summit as a testing ground  [6:29] Origins of the “Ciroc playbook”   [9:32] How much strategic overlap is there between Ciroc and DeLeon marketing?  [15:41] Entering the cannabis space [18:00] Regulatory challenges in the cannabis industry [26:01] Why Diddy is not just another celebrity entrepreneur  [30:03] How Combs Enterprises invests in startups [34:21] Did Diddy really back Elon Musk’s purchase of Twitter? [36:45] No rush to sell Bad Boy Records catalog  [41:32] Sean John comeback  [47:05] Diddy’s attempt to buy the Carolina Panthers in 2018 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Tarik A. Brooks, @tarikamin     Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Tarik Brooks: Twitter's impact in society is certainly bigger than how it shows up from a profit and loss and from a market cap perspective. And when you look at, you know, where Twitter is trading today is trading at a fraction of like Facebook or like Snapchat is the question from an investment perspective with some you could create meaningful. [00:00:33] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:53] Dan Runcie: All right, today we got my guy, Tarik Brooks, the president of Combs Enterprises. Second time on the podcast. Great to have you back, man. [00:01:01] Tarik Brooks: Happy New Year my brother. Great to be back.  [00:01:03] Dan Runcie: So what's the latest from the House of Combs? [00:01:08] Tarik Brooks: Things are wonderful enterprises, man. Tremendous 2022, where we did a lot of investing in our existing platforms and in new platforms. And so, you know, the big push in 23. Is to operationalized and grow a lot of those new platforms. You know, a lot of people are familiar with the cannabis deal, which we announced late last year. We're gonna close that deal and get that operational. We've also been working on an e-commerce platform with Salesforce, called it Power Global, that will launch this year, you know, released music last year. That did great. I mean, he and a sub-Christian. You know, with the first father and son duo to be number one. At the same time, there'll be more projects from Love Records coming in this year. So a lot of new things are in 23, so I wanna accustom a lot of exciting developments.  [00:01:56] Dan Runcie: And I feel like one of the strengths for him whenever he is launching a new brand is being able to find some type of synergy between something that he's done that's already worked and finding some way to tie it all together. And for you, I know you've been there for a couple years. Is there like one company or one tie in that really stands out about, oh yeah, what Puff is able to do here? Tweak the formula a little bit, brought it over to this company and then it helped that one too. [00:02:22] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. It is interesting, man, like, because you know, with the ecosystem we have that there are synergies all over the place that we work hard to exploit everyday. What I'll tell you bigger thing is that underneath our ecosystem sits the core premise, a core belief that our culture drives culture, that our people drive what's cool and what's next and what's hot in a meaningful way. So, you know, you go back to blues and jazz and rock and roll to hip hop, TikTok, viral dances, like our people drive that. And so if you look at all of the different elements in our ecosystem. What you see are different sectors that we drive through our cultural presence. And so when you look at our platform through that lens, you see how they all fit together. So then synergies just become finding places where, you know, we can work together to make one plus one equal three or four. Right? And so like, you know, easy examples when you think about how you know our brands will show up at the Revolt Summit. So Revolt hosts this amazing event every year in Atlanta. 10,000 people come. It gives us an opportunity to kinda have revolt, touch to people, but also have ourown touch to people for us to do research for new companies that we're developing the test concepts. These are ways that we don't place there with our ecosystem. I mean, I look at a great example. Deleon tequila. Used Druski in an ad, you know, super funny guy. Did a tremendous job with the ad. We then, you know, connected in with the team in Revolt and he did something with Revolt. It ended up being a great, great opportunity there. So like throughout our ecosystem, you see all these opportunities that exist with our portfolio companies and with the companies that we invest in. We think about how we invest and part of it is all the stuff you expect from any traditional investment vehicle. You know, do you have great leadership? Do you have a strong destructive concept? But what we also know about there two or three ways that this thing could be utilized is our ecosystem for the company. So it's an everyday activity, you know, finding, exploiting, and developing those things  [00:04:31] Dan Runcie:  You mentioned earlier about the Revolt Summit and how that can be a test space for whether it's new products or new things. Can you talk more about that? Cause I think that's really interesting.  [00:04:40] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, so I mean this past Revolt Summit, the team at Empowered Global, which is the eCommerce platform that I just mentioned, had a space set up where they could introduce the concept to the participants at the Revolt Summit. And more than that, we actually had, and it was, I gotta find you a picture of this. A digital vending machine that was filled with black-owned products. So, and kinda like what you would see at the airport where you have vending machines, where they kinda have, you know, non typical vending machine products, headphones, and different things like that. Our vending machine that we had set up in the Revolt Summit was all filled with products that were owned by black that came from black owned companies. And so that was like just a real example. In that moment, we were able to introduce people to the concept of the platform, try out some new tech and get real time feedback from people who we believe will be a part of that target.  [00:05:34] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Yeah. Because you wanna have people that are first bought in, you get the people there and I think the people that are gonna attend Revolt Summit likely end up being culture shapers or mavens within their particular area themselves. They start saying something's good, and then they can, you know, go back and that's how you're able to spread things. [00:05:52] Tarik Brooks: 100%. It's the way, you know, everybody talks about it in terms of synergies, but we like to talk about it in terms of not planting there, right? Like we have these resources, we have these brands that mean something to people. You know that the most impactful thing we can do is find out how putting those brands together at different times in different ways produces more information, produces more insight, produces more, you know, revenue generating opportunity than any of those entities in silos. So for me, like the silo is the enemy, right? Like the key is to have all of our leaders and all of our team members continuously engaging in a very fluid way. [00:06:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, the one that always stuck out to me too was Ciroc and the on the ground promotion for that, because there are so many through lines going back to The Bad Boy Days, the Bad Boy Street team, and then the Ciroc Boys. It's very similar playbook and being able to help push that.  [00:06:45] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I mean, look, and again, the playbook is the same. It's the same. You know, when you look at what the spirits industry looked at at the time, it was very different from today. You know, a lot of folks don't realize at that time the only people really trying to market, know black people in the hip was more liquor. Right? Cause I know I wasn't on the team back then, but what I can tell you is he looked at how nightlife worked and how the culture was working and evolving and saw a huge opportunity for an aspirational luxury product. And then was able to apply a lot of the same tools that were driving his success in the music business in spirits. And so that's how you end up with us showing up better than most people in the nightlife, us being able to have the DJs, you know, be a part of our experience. Cause Puff knew back then, in which he knows now how powerful DJs are in the culture and in the communities he lives in. If you look at even now, like a lot of, you know what he's posted socially as, you know, the efforts around love, records, respect. Like, we get what algorithms can do, but understand like DJ is culturally important. Like they mean something to their communities and they mean something to our culture. And in that way they have outside influence, that I think people still underestimate.  [00:08:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think as much as things have been movement streaming or NFTs or whatever it is, people still wanna go to the club and people still want to be in the hands of a DJ that knows what they're doing and can introduce them. [00:08:12] Tarik Brooks: Absolutely. There is power and curation. Right. And look, theoretically A.I. will be able to kind of take that input and lead curations that are solid. But you know it's tough to replicate, you know, instinct. And natural art, you know? Exactly. That's the thing, right? Like to be able to think you can do it with just an algorithm means it's all science. And I think, you know, most entertainment industries, particularly when you talk about the power of a DJ, are art and science together. That art is that intuitive thing that, like you, some folks just have, they know when to play the right record. You know, not just cause it's a similar bpm, but they know, cause they know that crowd, they know that venue. They know that audience better than most other people do. [00:09:00] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And I think too, a lot of that we definitely saw with the Ciroc Playbook, but I wanna spend some time in this conversation talking a bit more about Deleon because, I think that that is relatively newer business for other portfolio, but I think there's a lot that's similar, but the lot that's different too in terms of how you've all rolled it out, what you've done, how you've done things differently. So love to start there and maybe start first specifically, how much of the Ciroc Playbook was used with what you've all done so far with Deleon? [00:09:32] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, so I think the core premise stays the same, right? What Puff has been amazing at throughout his career is being able to spot and help develop trends very early. And he saw back in 2013, 2014, that the next wave in spirits was gonna be, you know, brown spirits, in particular tequila. And so when he formed the joint venture with Diageo, that he built that knowing that a tequila wave was coming. Now from the perspective of how industries developed, tequila and vodka are two very different places, right? It is very big, very mature right now, trying to fight off the growth of some of the spirits that are taking customers away, whereas tequila is smaller but fast growing. And it's also very nuanced. So like when you think about what we've been able to do driving Deleon's growth, and Deleon right now is the fastest growing tequila in the country, right?It's on fire right now and just, you know, small plug, you are new to tequila. Deleon are absolutely amazing. I will put them against any tequila that's out there, you know, so smooth ice cube, orange slice. You're good. [00:10:41] Dan Runcie: But any numbers to share in terms of like, cases sold or anything like that? [00:10:45] Tarik Brooks: So look, I'm not gonna go into the details on cases, but again, this is Nielsen’s data,this is not coming right? So right now, you look, it is triple digits right now, you know, comfortable cause to disclose. But what I would say is, you know, part of the Deleon story is making sure Deleon is relevant in culture. And when you hear Deleon Lemonade in the young Miami, I'm not sure when, when you see Deleon on, when you see Deleon sharp in these things, it's a part of ensuring Deleon is relevant in the culture and shows up the right way, but there's also a big part of the future of Deleon that will grow. Talking about the liquid itself, you know how we get to such a high quality. It is the fact that Deleon is aged in both American whiskey and French red wine barrels to get the distinctive taste that, like, that's just part of the story that we're still just beginning to tell and roll out as we build it. And from our view, we are building, you know, iconic, long lasting brands. We want Deleon to be thought of the same way you think about Johnny Walker or Hennessy or any other great brands that are out there. So our view is like you don't rush that thing, you develop that story over time. You feed people in, you bring people into the brand and then you culture that and as soon you cultivate that audience, you know, as it grows. And so, you know, a lot of the kinda principles that we've applied in growing, we're applying to Deleon, but we're also being very aware that, you know, vodka and very different liquids develop differently, Exactly The same. And you think about that as you start to position the brand.  [00:12:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah, cuz I think that was a good point that you mentioned just in terms of how vodka has been the market leader just from a type of liquor for so long. So you didn't necessarily have to do that piece of it, but it was more so Yeah. How do you bring this brand that I think some people may have forgotten about, but bring it to the same level as your great gooses in your others.  [00:12:44] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. People know people, I mean, look, the way Ciroc hadn't been positioned in a way that was creating a lot of noise, a lot of impact, and I think, you know, part Puff's genius was figuring out that it was amazing juice. It was amazing liquid, with beautiful bottles. So if you positioned it the right way in culture, you could create a wave. And that wave has been historic. This was a brand that was doing, you know, cases annually and now this is a case brand globally. Huge brand in the spirits industry in a sector that was big, vodka's a very, very big sector. Tequila we're growing Deleon as the sector's growing as well. So it's just, again, from a marketing perspective, a different set of challenges, but the same principles apply to how we think about leveraging culture. Leveraging, you know, our ability to kinda set trends to help drive a career meaningful brand, but it all also starts with a great quality liquid that we stand by. I mean, one of the things, right? Yeah. I think one of the things has always been super consistent about is the authenticity around, like, standing behind the products he brings to market. There's not a variant of Deleon or flavor that gets released without Puff. Personally, we stamped that saying, you know, this is okay to go to market with our income. [00:14:03] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah, cuz I think the distinction too on the flip side with tequila is like, not even that it's so much education cuz I think a lot of people know tequila, but just getting the consumer a bit of a visual of yes, this is the setting where not just our brand but this broader aspect. And I know there's 1800 and there's like others too. Yeah. But like you all be able to be like, hey, This is where, so some of that, what I think worked so well for sag, just in terms of thinking back to those like Vegas promo shots where they had all the people there being able to, you know, have whatever the tequila and Deleon equivalent is of that. [00:14:39] Tarik Brooks:  Yeah. I mean, look, I think a part of the tequila growth story is helping people understand that, you know, while they may have been introduced to tequila, you know, with shots on spring break or something like that, you know, once you learn more, you learn a much more complex liquid that can be enjoyed a lot of different ways mixed drinks, neat, you know, over on the rocks, you know, and all the other kinds of occasions. So I think part of our experience is helping people understand that it's versatility is part of why it's growing as fast as grown.  [00:15:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think too, just thinking more broadly about spirits and things that people enjoy you all now going into cannabis, I think that there are definitely some similarities there. People wanna be able to relax and enjoy what they choose, but so different in terms of not just regulation, but the culture. How has it been, just, I know, even thinking about the origins of that deal, how some of that playbook and mentality can be leveraged for what you all have now with this massive opportunity in cannabis? [00:15:41] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I mean, look, there are certainly two categories that are at very different stages, but you know, you could argue they've been on similar journeys, right? Like there was a point in time when alcohol was prohibited. When you look at the history of cannabis, you know, you start to realize a lot of the way this product category was treated was less around the specific impact of the product and more around the specific influence. The culture that was around, you know, before that was hip hop, cannabis was huge in the jazz community. And the jazz community was something that black people were bringing and spreading throughout the United States in a meaningful way and, you know, real impact culturally, and there were folks that didn't wanna see that happen. And so a part of the criminalization of cannabis was connected to slowing down the influence of that jazz, that black culture. And so you've seen over the past years been that cannabis has been illegal, you know, the disproportionate criminalization of black people as it relates to cannabis, more than white people. And so this opportunity is an opportunity that gives us a chance to basically through doing good sound business, you know, rights and historical wrongs. When you look at the last 10 years of legal cannabis, Despite, you know, the overcriminalization of black people, it is dominated by white men. You know, 85, 86% owned by white men. Black people only own 2% of the space, and so for us, particularly coming in this way, it gives us an opportunity to kind of make change and enter the business at scale to be able to come in with a three state footprint and be able to use that as a platform to help change the cannabis ecosystem to make sure to use our platform to enable black and brown people to participate in the industry in a number of different ways. To be able to use our voice, to be able to help shape the way regulators and lawmakers think about how cannabis needs to be developed going forward, and continue to do what we do at our core, which is bring our audience, great quality product for them to enjoy. [00:17:46] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I do think that those stats you mentioned are just around the 2% of the business, that is only being, again, like I said, at this point, currently run and administered by black people. And that's in America, right?  [00:18:00] Tarik Brooks: In America in the US. It is gonna continue to be a leader in global cannabis. So a lot of countries look to see, you know, what the US is doing and how they're thinking about deregulation and how they shape their rules. And, for us it's a big part of what we do is helping people to see how the way things are set up negatively impacts our community. So when you look at, you know, the cannabis industry broadly working to change the way cannabis is scheduled by the federal government and how it's treated by the federal government and how banks are able to interact with cannabis companies. All of those things make it hard for the industry broadly, but it makes it extra hard for us because when you look at industries without those, We don't get the same access to capital, we don't get the same access to opportunities. So it's one of those things where, you know, once again, we're starting from behind the eight ball, but what our, you know, perspective allows us to do is start from a different vantage point, right? Like it is an extremely difficult time to raise money in cannabis. And so for us to be able to pull off something, this big speech. You know, the success and track record that Puff has had building quality grants, building quality companies, and being able to find the kinda talent you need to come in and create value. And so we're excited man. We think this is gonna be a huge event for the cannabis industry. We think it's gonna be a huge event for us to help our community create meaningful wealth. Cause ultimately, you know, as business people, we wanna use our skills and resources create wealth for our community. [00:19:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And like you said, definitely, you know, huge undertaking and make this happen. Can you talk a little bit more about some of the steps to get from the first idea, maybe it's you and Puff talking about, Hey, you know, we should do this, we should get into this business. Then boom, the announcement comes. Like, what were some of the steps to help make this happen?  [00:19:53] Tarik Brooks:  So we have been exploring the cannabis industry, you know, with different levels of intensity since looking at opportunities. Starting to understand how the industry works, getting closer and closer to the space, you know, building relationships with entrepreneurs and companies in the space to kinda understand how things develop. I joined the board of Cresco Labs, you know, one cause I wanted to learn more about the industry. I thought they were a great company. But two, from that vantage point, you were able to see how the industry works and how things develop. And so when this opportunity came along, which was really driven by Acquisition of Columbia Care by Cresco. They, by regulation, have to divest assets. This opportunity to look at a portfolio of assets that are good, you know, good, strong businesses. Generating revenue, generating cash flow today to be able to come, bring those into our portfolio and then do what we do to create meaningful brands around those assets seem like a phenomenal opportunity. And so, look, these things take time to develop and it's a long process of, you know, doing the due diligence, raising the capital, going through all the steps you have to do to actually close a deal. But we believe it's gonna be a phenomenal historic deal once it's closed and wherever operated. And we think, like, look, when you look at pub's track record of building brands in music, in fashion, in spirits, you know, should extend, we believe it's gonna extend itself to cannabis and meaningful given how influential and impactful cannabis is in culture. [00:21:28] Dan Runcie: And we definitely know that there are a lot of regulatory challenges in this space for sure. And I also know that there are several other celebrity investors, even some in hip hop that have started businesses in this space and haven't necessarily been able to help take them to the next level. Do you have thoughts about some of those, I guess how business now moving forward can help address and overcome some of those hurdles that maybe some others weren't quite able to get past. [00:21:58] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, so I take those in pieces. What I would say is, you know, we believe over the long term, the federal view on cannabis will change. We believe cannabis will ultimately, eventually be legal, you know, throughout the United States and in all 50 States. But we don't know when that's gonna happen. And so none of our investment thesis, none of our modeling, none of our business case was built on imminent regulatory relief. And so while, you know, we hope for it and we wanna help shape how lawmakers think about it the same way the rest of the issue does. Nothing in our core premise for doing this deal was built on the expectation of regulatory relief this year, next year, five years from now. Right. So that's the one thing I would do. That said, we wanna be immediately a part of the conversation cause cannabis is so connected to our community. And so we're gonna jump into that conversation at the state level. We're gonna jump into that conversation at the national level. Now going to the second part of your question. You know, one of the things I think is the biggest, you know, misnomer when people think about, you know, Sean comes entering cannabis, is thinking about this as a celebrity cannabis deal, right? When I think about this and when Puff and I have always talked about it. What we think about. A guy with an amazing track record of building culturally relevant brands. Is that relevant in cannabis? Yes. Check, right. You know, does he have resources and the platform to be able to raise the capital to do a deal like this. Check. Does he have the ability to attract the kind of talent you need? Check right. Now. You also then say, is this celebrity extremely valuable in getting the word out? Brilliant. Absolutely. But that's not the core premise of what we're trying to do, right? Like we will get as much value through all the things we can learn throughout our ecosystem and how our customers and all of our other businesses think about. As we'll get from Sean Holmes, the celebrity. Right? And so from that perspective, you know, we don't expect to have our business be a celebrity driven brand per se. It's gonna be built on the back of great brand building, great marketing, and very strategic and efficient operations. [00:24:07] Dan Runcie: And I think that ties into something you had said in a recent interview about how insights from Revolt, for instance, can inform some of the decisions that you make with the cannabis business. [00:24:18] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. I mean, look, when you think about an ecosystem like ours that spans from spirits, music, media, fashion, with every interaction with our audience, you create. So every time posts go up from their social media, you know, there's data that comes back. Every Ciroc transaction generates data when Revolt has shows on all the different platforms that has shows on cable, YouTube, In app, all those different platforms generate data. As you compile that data, you're able to kinda look at it with a different lens and pull insights from that. What we're then able to do is take the data that we get from the cannabis industry that everybody else in cannabis is getting. But when you start putting those things together in unique ways, that's how you start to generate interesting insights that everybody's just not gonna have access to 'em. So that's where we think, again, we have a real competitive advantage in how we think about what we do in the space. That'll impact everything from, you know, how our stores look and feel, and what that experience will be what products we lead with how we think about price points, how we change things from state to state. A lot of that will be driven by insights that not only come from the cannabis industry, but that are informed by the other businesses in our portfolio as well.  [00:25:32] Dan Runcie: And this steps into, I think, a broader conversation of some of the categorization of someone like Puff and the work that he does in that the media can often put him alongside other people who have happened to be a recording artist on a track and compare their business ventures in the same way. And what you're essentially saying is, You can't compare us all the same way. Did they build a revolt? [00:26:01] Tarik Brooks: It's so hard cause it's like, I don't wanna deny how impactful he is as an entertainer. Epic performances. When you think about, and not just performances in music, performances in movies, performances on Broadway. Like the guy is quintessential, entertaining. You know, by all means, like you can't argue that. But I think when you try to look at him narrowly as just that you are really missing the picture. Cause I think that underestimates or understates, how difficult, it’s to build a bad boy into a success, to build a success, build a revolt, to build us rock, to build a Deleon, to build three schools, like that, that's not just on the back of him. An amazing entertainer, right? Like that speaks to his business instincts, his ability to spot trends, his ability to kinda find and cultivate talent, like those are all things that are universal in business. Leave aside what he's been able to do as an entertainer, I would argue, had he never got on the mic or touched the stage, he would've been just that successful business person just on the back. His business, you know, acumen and abilities. And so that's where, when we're in these conversations and people think about, you know, in cannabis this came up recently, people say like, well, you know, celebrity brands haven't really worked. And I'm like, lemme take a second to help you understand why this is different from a celebrity brand opportunity. The other thing that's different that I think is important for people to understand is when we take control of these assets, we'll be fully vertically integrated in the States that we operate, which, we are gonna cultivate, we are a process. We are gonna manufacture, we're gonna distribute, we're gonna sell. So these are all pieces of the business value chain that we'll operate. Again, not so relevant from the celebrity space. This is all around how do you build and run high quality businesses? And that's where I think you have to look at our business portfolio to understand how impactful Puff is throughout his career. And you just don't see those things that the only lens you're looking at is through him as the celebrity.  [00:28:10] Dan Runcie: I could see this topic also coming up in some ways, potentially from an investment perspective, where you all have companies that are trying to either get you to invest or you're evaluating them and at some point someone on the other side of the table may come to you and be like, Hey, well if you invest in us, can we get a shout out in a song? Can we get an Instagram post? Can we do this? Like these things that view Puff as the influencer as opposed to the business leader that has all of these things. [00:28:39] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. What I found just in my experience and I've been working with Puff almost six years now. Most of it typically comes with how people were introduced to them and the depth or lack thereof of their understanding of what he's been able to do throughout his career. There's a lot of stuff, you know, people just don't necessarily, you know, attribute to him in the way they should. So usually that journey is one where it's about informing people to say things like, let's make sure you have all the perspective and then think about kinda how this can make sense. Cause again, there's no denying his impact and influence as a celebrity. He's huge. Like, he's a big name, he's an iconic person in culture. But I think to only think about him that way now, I think when people start to understand, you know, what working with Combs Enterprises means more broadly, you start to understand the power of the platform that we really have. And that's where I think it gets really exciting for the people.  [00:29:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I agree. That makes sense. From an investment perspective specifically though, do you feel like, is that something that often needs to be addressed with startups or with founders or others that may be whether deep down they may be looking for something and I'm more so asking that in a way because I've seen it happen to others and given this conversation, I can see that especially being somewhat frustrating where it's like, Hey, I hope you're not just interested in this to think you're gonna get a shout out. [00:30:03] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. I mean, so look, I'll tell you when we are evaluating investment opportunities and people are looking at ideals, I don't think that is a thing that people are using as their primary driver. Do I think there are people who will be like nice to have, do they hope to get to meet them? Do they hope to get all those? Sure. Right. Like, again, all 'em, all those kinds of things. But I think when we get, you know, evaluating real deals. I think one thing that surprises people is the rigor with which we do our due diligence and our analysis, right? And so that's the first thing you see to say like, well this is not just, you know, high level celebrity thing. This is being looked at with real deep due diligence and real deep analysis. And I think from there it starts to shake away that kinda filter of, oh, oh, I'm gonna try to just get a celebrity deal done. Cause it's just not the way we do business. And I think people get that.  [00:31:02] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. Leslie. Yeah. Especially if there's a due diligence process that they're seeing on their side. And maybe we could talk a little bit more about that, like from a high level, for a lot of the investments you do, maybe less like the cannabis deals, but more on the venture side, do you have a particular sweet spot in terms of, you know, this is normally the dollar amount range, or this is normally what we put in, or this is normally what we are looking for? [00:31:26] Tarik Brooks: So, we have, you know, flexibility, right? We're not a fund that has to, you know, stick to a certain sector or a certain stage of growth the way, you know, funds are typically mandated to do so. We do have flexibility, but that said, going back to the earlier comment I was making, we tend to look at businesses where we see some application. At places within our current portfolio. Right? So like, I don't know that you'll ever see us do like, you know, some like heavy machinery deals or you know, enterprise software, things like that. Cause that's not natural, when you look at interface with the businesses we operate in, it becomes a lot more interesting for us. And so while we apply, you know, the very standard kinda ways of assessing, you know, the quality of the leadership team, the uniqueness of the opportunity, how opportunity is the total addressable market opportunity. Ultimately, we look at all those things just like every other, you know, person who investigates an opportunity. I think where it gets unique is for us, once we've gone through all that, we then sit back and say, okay, you know, how many of our businesses could actually utilize this offering? You know, how many different places do we think we can use this throughout our portfolio? And then it starts to become even more interesting. So, that's kinda how we get there. Now, to be clear, like we don't have a hard mandate or a set of funds. We have to put the work in the way the fund does, and so we tend to be very, very opportunistic. We pick what we do very carefully to be investing. So as we see economic conditions change as we see market conditions. We're able to just say like, all right, let's take a step back. Let's wait and see how things play out. And I think that helped. I mean, it helped us avoid, you know, some of the frustrations some folks are seeing in the web and cryptocurrency world. Cause we weren't forced to go aggressively and do something too fast. We saw the market was evolving and so we were able to take a step back, and continue to evaluate it. So from that perspective, there's a lot of flex.  [00:33:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense, especially given that, yeah, there's no fun mandates though. It's not like you're burned because there's a winter or something like that. [00:33:44] Tarik Brooks: Absolutely, and the reality is we're always investing in our core portfolio as well, right? So we think about whether we wanna put millions into, you know, a startup passively. Part of the kinda analysis is to know where we could deploy in our current portfolio and does that make more sense? Right? And so there's that kinda flow of how we think about deals as well. [00:34:07] Dan Runcie:  Yeah, that makes sense. A couple months ago, there were headlines that Puff had apparently done an investment in Twitter around the time that Elon Musk had. Was that actually a thing, or did that come through or? [00:34:21] Tarik Brooks: Look, so like Puff and Elon like have a relationship.You know, Twitter is a very interesting situation in that when you look at, you know, the side like Twitter's impact in society is certainly bigger than how it shows up from. You know, profit and loss and from a market cap perspective, and when you look at, you know, where Twitter is trading today is trading at a fraction of where like a Facebook or even like a Snapchat is I think, at this point. And so the question becomes, you know, from an investment perspective, like do you think, you know, with some changes you could create meaningful value in Twitter, that platform. And so I think while you know, the kind of, the kind of statements in the press were overstated. There was a small investment in Twitter, but it's nothing. People get pieces of information and run, so we just, you know, we gotta sit back. [00:35:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think the way you framed it is correct. Right? I think it's definitely one of the 40 billion companies that creates more headlines than most other 44 billion companies we could probably even think of. [00:35:29] Tarik Brooks: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, like with some decisions to be a much more viable company than today and the verdict's still out, like those changes happen in real time and cause of how, you know, big the platform is in society. You know, you're seeing those things play out in the press and, you know, I'm sure Elon's campus is trying to work as methodically as they can through those changes. As they figure out what is the right, you know, kind end state for, for that platform.  [00:36:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. The other side of the investment piece, of course, I think we talked a lot about Combs Enterprises point Capital, but on the other side of it too, thinking specifically about everything happening in music catalogs over the past couple of years, everyone wants these valuable catalogs with this timeless music. Combs has one of the most valuable hip hop, r&b black music catalogs of the past 30 years with Bad Boy Records. There hasn't been any public news about any sales, but I am sure that people must have been calling nonstop trying to at least see what they could get in there. What were those conversations like? I'm sure at some point it must have come up of Rick, whether it's running the bum numbers or even thinking through like, what would this look like?  [00:36:45] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. Well look, I think as you know, like part of the interest in these catalogs is driven by the fact that, you know, the returns they generate aren't really correlated to the market, right? Like they’re like if you have, you know, a high quality performing catalog, it's gonna generate returns and generate cash flow irrespective of the ups and downs of the markets. And so that's attractive to investors. That said, for those same reasons, it's attractive to us, right? Like it is a great quality, high performing catalog. And for us, part of how, you know, we think about things, we think about like Puff's long-term vision, right? Like we're getting back into how he's getting back into music now with Love Records. You know, he's gonna build that platform in the way that makes sense as you think about the way culture and the music industry continues to evolve. And for us, we're in no rush to get rid of a portfolio that could be a part of that. Like who knows how you think about those assets in the future. And so for us, we're spending a lot of time thinking about what the future of music is gonna look like. And you know how Puff is gonna participate in that, what that looks like. And so for us, you know, again, you don't have, you know, some of the time constraints that you get from being they're public company or you know, money at a certain time. So we had the benefit of being able to go slow and kinda take our time and basically run experiments at our own pace to figure out what we wanna do. And so from that perspective, people have, you know, continually come through with offers and with opportunities and things. And we've purposely taken our time as we've about what, you know, Puff's experience of music is gonna be over the next, you know, next years as he climbs when he talks about it's his second, right? Like he's at the point of his career where he's accomplished and he's thinking about what that second looks like. Music has always been a very important part of his life, and so music is gonna be a part of that. Second, we're shaping what that looks like. And so from our perspective, there was no reason to move.  [00:38:46] Dan Runcie:  That makes a lot of sense and I think for you, there's two things that are different with you all compared to some of the others. Two of them you touched on, but one of them is that you already have the infrastructure in place on how to do things that can help maximize the asset of the Bad Boy Records catalog. It isn't like one of these situations like where the Whitney Houston catalog, like it was dormant before Primary Wave came in and obviously they've like, you know, forseed it since they acquired it three years ago. And it isn't like one of these other legacy artists that, you know, the estate may be in shambles and things just aren't lined up. And yeah, for them it probably makes sense to just get a lump sum of money and be able to distribute that instead of hoping that your relatives who may not be trained in managing this type of asset can't continue doing it forward. Like you all have that. And I think that's part of it. [00:39:37] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. And I think there's a couple ways to think about it too, right? Like, cause these artists work so hard to create these assets. You know, why sell 'em? Why get rid of them? But I think there's a couple ways you can think about. You can say one, alright, we may be at peak pricing. And so it's like, you know what, lemme sell while things are hot. You know, take the cash, be able to take the money off the table and invest other ways. You also, particularly with younger artists to say, all right, I'll sell this catalog, but if I'm still creating, I can continue to create and you know, build new works that will create value as well. And so I think there's different logic for different artists in terms of, you know, why they think about selling and why they sell when they do that, you know, in some respect make, particularly if you're looking at it from a purely financial perspective. But again, we were unique in the way that we have an ecosystem that helps continue to keep catalog relevant. We're back in music now, and so again, that also helps to create the halo effect across all of our ecosystems. And so for us, there just really isn't a rush to move too quickly, like where we can think about what is the kinda value maximizing way to utilize the catalog and whatever else we're doing to create the best outcomes.  [00:40:54] Dan Runcie: Right. I think that's a good way to put it too, like you said, numbers are there and if you wanna sell, there are sound financial reasons that someone may choose to do so for you all, and given Puff's current goals in music, it just may not make the most sense, but with that though, shifting gears a bit, one business we haven't talked a lot about is Sean John and I know this is a business that the team had sold a couple years back. The company that bought it. Things didn't quite work out there. You all then bought it back recently. So where are things right now with Sean John? [00:41:32] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, Sean John is super exciting, right? So you first start with an iconic, you know, street brand, right? You know, this is again another example. Being able to see where fashion was going, seeing how, you know, folks in our community were wearing other brands to get particular silhouettes and have it, you know, look a certain way and feel a certain way, and then be able to build a brand. That became a real like a foundational piece of, you know, hip hop culture. And through that process, Puff was the first African American man to win the CFDA award, which is the biggest award you can win in fashion, right? So truly iconic sold the brand. The buyers at the time weren't able to figure out how to maximize it, so they created the opportunity for us to buy back. And so what we're excited to do now, and we're in this process with Puff of really reimagining what can and should be for this generation, right? Like as much as you know, we all love the iconic valore sweatsuits and all rest it like, maybe that's a part of the future. Maybe it's a different brand position, different way, but like spending time. Actually really ideate on that and get to the right concept to bring it back again. We have the benefit cause, you know, we operate this portfolio, we don't have the pressure to rush. Like we don't have to, you know, do something right away to be able to, you know, capture that value overnight. You know, we have the luxury of being able to take our time and what I found with Puff is he likes to be able to, one, work with the quality people he possibly can and really run ideas through the ringer in terms of, you know, having people question his logic, test the thinking. Really, really pressure test to see if it's the right way before we do something. So what I can say is, right now in the lab, like, you know, there's creative folks that are thinking through, you know, what Sean John could be and should be and isn't engaged in that process. And so it's exciting I think when we do hit on the market, we're gonna come back in a way that one pays homage to the legacy of John, but then isn't just caught in what to be, is really thinking about what the brand could mean and should mean to, you know, new generations. [00:43:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. And I feel like when it happened too, it definitely generated some excitement. So I feel like there's some good momentum.  [00:43:47] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I think a lot of the folks who are dominating the fashion world now, were inspired, you know, by, you know, fans. So the fact that it's a brand is still, you know, relevant to people in different ways, gives us a great building. Like, I would rather be trying to kinda help people connect to this brand with so much history and legacy than trying to build a brand from scratch. You know? I think it provides a good foundation. Like's aspiration is to build iconic, long-lasting brands. So when you think about iconic brands that have been around for 55, you know, longer periods of time, that's what the goal is. And so, and those brands have gone through research, you know, any iconic brands gone off, of kinda laws and growth. And so for us, this is just really, you know, the second chapter of something that's gonna, you know, be a part of our community and our culture for years ago.  [00:44:45] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. And for you specifically, if we zoom out a bit, looking at the past six years since you've been there, we definitely talked a lot about wins, a lot of the successes. But are there any setbacks or are there any missed opportunities that you look back on, especially the past six years since you've been there being like, oh, I wonder if we did this differently with this brand. I wonder if we did that differently?  [00:45:07] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I think for us, one of the things I appreciate about Puff and it's a value that we both share, which you know, you look at everything as like a learning opportunity to say like maybe the outcome didn't go your way, but there was plenty of stuff you could learn from if you embrace the opportunity the right way. So like I look at the fact that it was back in was announced as an opportunity. We saw the value of the team and the value of the assets all around. You thought it was a great opportunity, pursued it. You know, the group that we were part of didn't win, but through that process, learned a ton about that space. You know, I met great people, you know, business partners and relationships that we still engaged with in different things today all came from that opportunity. So like, you know, while, look, I would've loved to be able to win that deal or bring that home, you know, I think there's a lot that comes from it. It sets us up for the things we do, you know, when I think about, David, we talked about the Revolt Summit earlier, right? Like, you know, as we were building the Revolt Summit, you know, we bring it back after, I think a year off. And then in 2020 the pandemic hit. So we gotta basically shut it down and go virtual. But like coming outta those were things we learned about how we're gonna in the future. So this year, you know, the biggest Revolt Summit ever, how's Metaverse versus online? Like all those things coming around. Again, learnings that you utilize going forward. And so, you know, whether it's you thinking through every single flavor in the portfolio or every single bab in the artist roster, even the ones that don't work out the way, you know, you want them to work out their stuff. You can learn from that help, impact and help you to be better as you move forward. That's the way we think. You know, and I talk all the time about just, you know, transparently looking at the things that go right and go wrong and making sure we're learning. [00:47:05] Dan Runcie: Can we actually talk a little bit about the Carolina Panthers one specifically? Because I know you all said that you didn't win the bid, but was it an aspect of being outbid or the owners or someone just choosing someone different? Like how did that all go down? Cause I remember the headlines about it. I remember that there were a few other prominent black public figures that were in that ownership group too. [00:47:27] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I mean, look, what I would say is, you know, the person that you know ended up winning the bid, I believe, if I remember correctly, had, you know, the highest bid relationship. I think from that perspective, he kinda knew the league, well, and, and was prepared in a number of different ways to be able to take it down. And I would just say the group that we were part of kinda fell short in that way. But what's interesting is, you know, the number, and I just can't remember real time, the exact number he ended up paying for. When you look at the number that people think that the Washington Commanders are gonna command, and the number that the Denver Barcos commanded. You know, while that number he paid was high at the time, you know, it's not even half what somebody might pay for the Washington Commanders. And so perspective, you're willing to pay for something. You gotta live with the fact that there's just maybe willing to pay more for it than you. Right. And so, you know, we ended up being a part of a really sharp group that, you know, had thought really hard about, you know, what was in this case. You know, we rounded. So, you know, again, it's one of those things you learn from, right? Like, you know, sports, entertainment, and business is very unique. You know, assets, you know, come available at different points in time. It's all about thinking about, you know, what do you think the asset is worth? What do you think you can do with it, you know, to translate to what you think it should be worth. And somewhere in that analysis you get to what you think you should pay for, right? And that's where you kinda make your move. And in that case, you know that there were just folks willing to pay for.  [00:49:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, I think that's a good point too. Cause I feel like I might be misquoting, but I feel like the Panther's bid was somewhere, I think it was under 3 billion at least. [00:49:20] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I believe you're right. I wanna be careful. I just don't remember exactly. But yeah, I remember it being less than 3 billion and I think the number they're saying for Washington Commanders now, like 7 billion and so I imagine, you know, like when you think about where the value of that Panthers is going, probably going. They probably did really well. So I mean, again, and we believed it was gonna do well and continue to do well. I mean, when you look at the size of the deal, I guess Google or YouTube just did it with the NFL. The NFL is a platform, right? When you look at, at least for the last couple years, I haven't seen 2022. When you look at the list of the top 50 watched things on television every year, 40 plus of them are football games. Right? Right. It's just that powerful of an entertainment platform, so therefore commands the prices of command.  [00:50:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Well, hopefully. Whether it's this group or some combination of others that we know we're interested in. Hopefully we see something happen soon in the sports ownership space. But this was great. I know we covered a bunch of topics in this one, and before we let you go though, is there anything that you didn't cover that the audience should stay looking out for or that we should be thinking about moving forward? [00:50:34] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I think 23 is a year that the audience should look out for a lot from, from the Combs organization. You know, music out of Love Records, including album and power, global e-commerce platform. Kinda reimagining how, you know, black people circulate dollars in our community. You know, the cannabis venture closing and beginning to build brands and establish meaningful footprints in the markets that it's in. There's just a lot of new things in 23, so there will be a lot coming outta our camp that we're super excited about, and so it's gonna be big.  [00:51:08] Dan Runcie: We'll keep our lookout for that, man. All right. Appreciate you spending the time, man. [00:51:12] Tarik Brooks: Thanks so much, man.Take care. [00:51:14] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 12 Jan 2023 09:00:00 -0000 How Diddy is Underestimated as a Businessman full Dan Runcie Sean “Diddy” Combs is one of hip-hop’s most serial entrepreneurs. His business track record stretches 30 years with successes in completely-different industries — music (Bad Boys Records), clothing (Sean John), spirits (Ciroc and DeLeon), media (Revolt), among many other ventures. To take a closer look at Combs' empire, I brought on Tarik Brooks, who is the president of Combs Enterprises.  Many chalk up Diddy’s entrepreneurial success to his influence and brand alone. While Tarik doesn’t deny Diddy’s star power, he also argues that line of thinking understates Diddy’s business acumen — his ability to spot trends, attract talent, raise capital, and so forth.  Not only that, but the broadness of Combs Enterprises is a unique competitive advantage. Diddy’s different businesses across sectors give them unique data points that can drive decision-making. The group announced a new foray into cannabis in late 2022. However, they won’t enter the space completely void of knowledge. Using insights from Revolt or Ciroc, they can glean how customers think about cannabis already.    Tarik and I dove deep into Diddy’s sprawling business empire this episode — the “why” not the “how” behind Puff’s success. Here’s what you can expect to hear:  [0:00] Combs Enterprises’ focus in 2023 [2:22] Synergies between Diddy’s different businesses  [4:40] Using Revolt Summit as a testing ground  [6:29] Origins of the “Ciroc playbook”   [9:32] How much strategic overlap is there between Ciroc and DeLeon marketing?  [15:41] Entering the cannabis space [18:00] Regulatory challenges in the cannabis industry [26:01] Why Diddy is not just another celebrity entrepreneur  [30:03] How Combs Enterprises invests in startups [34:21] Did Diddy really back Elon Musk’s purchase of Twitter? [36:45] No rush to sell Bad Boy Records catalog  [41:32] Sean John comeback  [47:05] Diddy’s attempt to buy the Carolina Panthers in 2018 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Tarik A. Brooks, @tarikamin     Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Tarik Brooks: Twitter's impact in society is certainly bigger than how it shows up from a profit and loss and from a market cap perspective. And when you look at, you know, where Twitter is trading today is trading at a fraction of like Facebook or like Snapchat is the question from an investment perspective with some you could create meaningful. [00:00:33] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:53] Dan Runcie: All right, today we got my guy, Tarik Brooks, the president of Combs Enterprises. Second time on the podcast. Great to have you back, man. [00:01:01] Tarik Brooks: Happy New Year my brother. Great to be back.  [00:01:03] Dan Runcie: So what's the latest from the House of Combs? [00:01:08] Tarik Brooks: Things are wonderful enterprises, man. Tremendous 2022, where we did a lot of investing in our existing platforms and in new platforms. And so, you know, the big push in 23. Is to operationalized and grow a lot of those new platforms. You know, a lot of people are familiar with the cannabis deal, which we announced late last year. We're gonna close that deal and get that operational. We've also been working on an e-commerce platform with Salesforce, called it Power Global, that will launch this year, you know, released music last year. That did great. I mean, he and a sub-Christian. You know, with the first father and son duo to be number one. At the same time, there'll be more projects from Love Records coming in this year. So a lot of new things are in 23, so I wanna accustom a lot of exciting developments.  [00:01:56] Dan Runcie: And I feel like one of the strengths for him whenever he is launching a new brand is being able to find some type of synergy between something that he's done that's already worked and finding some way to tie it all together. And for you, I know you've been there for a couple years. Is there like one company or one tie in that really stands out about, oh yeah, what Puff is able to do here? Tweak the formula a little bit, brought it over to this company and then it helped that one too. [00:02:22] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. It is interesting, man, like, because you know, with the ecosystem we have that there are synergies all over the place that we work hard to exploit everyday. What I'll tell you bigger thing is that underneath our ecosystem sits the core premise, a core belief that our culture drives culture, that our people drive what's cool and what's next and what's hot in a meaningful way. So, you know, you go back to blues and jazz and rock and roll to hip hop, TikTok, viral dances, like our people drive that. And so if you look at all of the different elements in our ecosystem. What you see are different sectors that we drive through our cultural presence. And so when you look at our platform through that lens, you see how they all fit together. So then synergies just become finding places where, you know, we can work together to make one plus one equal three or four. Right? And so like, you know, easy examples when you think about how you know our brands will show up at the Revolt Summit. So Revolt hosts this amazing event every year in Atlanta. 10,000 people come. It gives us an opportunity to kinda have revolt, touch to people, but also have ourown touch to people for us to do research for new companies that we're developing the test concepts. These are ways that we don't place there with our ecosystem. I mean, I look at a great example. Deleon tequila. Used Druski in an ad, you know, super funny guy. Did a tremendous job with the ad. We then, you know, connected in with the team in Revolt and he did something with Revolt. It ended up being a great, great opportunity there. So like throughout our ecosystem, you see all these opportunities that exist with our portfolio companies and with the companies that we invest in. We think about how we invest and part of it is all the stuff you expect from any traditional investment vehicle. You know, do you have great leadership? Do you have a strong destructive concept? But what we also know about there two or three ways that this thing could be utilized is our ecosystem for the company. So it's an everyday activity, you know, finding, exploiting, and developing those things  [00:04:31] Dan Runcie:  You mentioned earlier about the Revolt Summit and how that can be a test space for whether it's new products or new things. Can you talk more about that? Cause I think that's really interesting.  [00:04:40] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, so I mean this past Revolt Summit, the team at Empowered Global, which is the eCommerce platform that I just mentioned, had a space set up where they could introduce the concept to the participants at the Revolt Summit. And more than that, we actually had, and it was, I gotta find you a picture of this. A digital vending machine that was filled with black-owned products. So, and kinda like what you would see at the airport where you have vending machines, where they kinda have, you know, non typical vending machine products, headphones, and different things like that. Our vending machine that we had set up in the Revolt Summit was all filled with products that were owned by black that came from black owned companies. And so that was like just a real example. In that moment, we were able to introduce people to the concept of the platform, try out some new tech and get real time feedback from people who we believe will be a part of that target.  [00:05:34] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Yeah. Because you wanna have people that are first bought in, you get the people there and I think the people that are gonna attend Revolt Summit likely end up being culture shapers or mavens within their particular area themselves. They start saying something's good, and then they can, you know, go back and that's how you're able to spread things. [00:05:52] Tarik Brooks: 100%. It's the way, you know, everybody talks about it in terms of synergies, but we like to talk about it in terms of not planting there, right? Like we have these resources, we have these brands that mean something to people. You know that the most impactful thing we can do is find out how putting those brands together at different times in different ways produces more information, produces more insight, produces more, you know, revenue generating opportunity than any of those entities in silos. So for me, like the silo is the enemy, right? Like the key is to have all of our leaders and all of our team members continuously engaging in a very fluid way. [00:06:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, the one that always stuck out to me too was Ciroc and the on the ground promotion for that, because there are so many through lines going back to The Bad Boy Days, the Bad Boy Street team, and then the Ciroc Boys. It's very similar playbook and being able to help push that.  [00:06:45] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I mean, look, and again, the playbook is the same. It's the same. You know, when you look at what the spirits industry looked at at the time, it was very different from today. You know, a lot of folks don't realize at that time the only people really trying to market, know black people in the hip was more liquor. Right? Cause I know I wasn't on the team back then, but what I can tell you is he looked at how nightlife worked and how the culture was working and evolving and saw a huge opportunity for an aspirational luxury product. And then was able to apply a lot of the same tools that were driving his success in the music business in spirits. And so that's how you end up with us showing up better than most people in the nightlife, us being able to have the DJs, you know, be a part of our experience. Cause Puff knew back then, in which he knows now how powerful DJs are in the culture and in the communities he lives in. If you look at even now, like a lot of, you know what he's posted socially as, you know, the efforts around love, records, respect. Like, we get what algorithms can do, but understand like DJ is culturally important. Like they mean something to their communities and they mean something to our culture. And in that way they have outside influence, that I think people still underestimate.  [00:08:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think as much as things have been movement streaming or NFTs or whatever it is, people still wanna go to the club and people still want to be in the hands of a DJ that knows what they're doing and can introduce them. [00:08:12] Tarik Brooks: Absolutely. There is power and curation. Right. And look, theoretically A.I. will be able to kind of take that input and lead curations that are solid. But you know it's tough to replicate, you know, instinct. And natural art, you know? Exactly. That's the thing, right? Like to be able to think you can do it with just an algorithm means it's all science. And I think, you know, most entertainment industries, particularly when you talk about the power of a DJ, are art and science together. That art is that intuitive thing that, like you, some folks just have, they know when to play the right record. You know, not just cause it's a similar bpm, but they know, cause they know that crowd, they know that venue. They know that audience better than most other people do. [00:09:00] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And I think too, a lot of that we definitely saw with the Ciroc Playbook, but I wanna spend some time in this conversation talking a bit more about Deleon because, I think that that is relatively newer business for other portfolio, but I think there's a lot that's similar, but the lot that's different too in terms of how you've all rolled it out, what you've done, how you've done things differently. So love to start there and maybe start first specifically, how much of the Ciroc Playbook was used with what you've all done so far with Deleon? [00:09:32] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, so I think the core premise stays the same, right? What Puff has been amazing at throughout his career is being able to spot and help develop trends very early. And he saw back in 2013, 2014, that the next wave in spirits was gonna be, you know, brown spirits, in particular tequila. And so when he formed the joint venture with Diageo, that he built that knowing that a tequila wave was coming. Now from the perspective of how industries developed, tequila and vodka are two very different places, right? It is very big, very mature right now, trying to fight off the growth of some of the spirits that are taking customers away, whereas tequila is smaller but fast growing. And it's also very nuanced. So like when you think about what we've been able to do driving Deleon's growth, and Deleon right now is the fastest growing tequila in the country, right?It's on fire right now and just, you know, small plug, you are new to tequila. Deleon are absolutely amazing. I will put them against any tequila that's out there, you know, so smooth ice cube, orange slice. You're good. [00:10:41] Dan Runcie: But any numbers to share in terms of like, cases sold or anything like that? [00:10:45] Tarik Brooks: So look, I'm not gonna go into the details on cases, but again, this is Nielsen’s data,this is not coming right? So right now, you look, it is triple digits right now, you know, comfortable cause to disclose. But what I would say is, you know, part of the Deleon story is making sure Deleon is relevant in culture. And when you hear Deleon Lemonade in the young Miami, I'm not sure when, when you see Deleon on, when you see Deleon sharp in these things, it's a part of ensuring Deleon is relevant in the culture and shows up the right way, but there's also a big part of the future of Deleon that will grow. Talking about the liquid itself, you know how we get to such a high quality. It is the fact that Deleon is aged in both American whiskey and French red wine barrels to get the distinctive taste that, like, that's just part of the story that we're still just beginning to tell and roll out as we build it. And from our view, we are building, you know, iconic, long lasting brands. We want Deleon to be thought of the same way you think about Johnny Walker or Hennessy or any other great brands that are out there. So our view is like you don't rush that thing, you develop that story over time. You feed people in, you bring people into the brand and then you culture that and as soon you cultivate that audience, you know, as it grows. And so, you know, a lot of the kinda principles that we've applied in growing, we're applying to Deleon, but we're also being very aware that, you know, vodka and very different liquids develop differently, Exactly The same. And you think about that as you start to position the brand.  [00:12:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah, cuz I think that was a good point that you mentioned just in terms of how vodka has been the market leader just from a type of liquor for so long. So you didn't necessarily have to do that piece of it, but it was more so Yeah. How do you bring this brand that I think some people may have forgotten about, but bring it to the same level as your great gooses in your others.  [00:12:44] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. People know people, I mean, look, the way Ciroc hadn't been positioned in a way that was creating a lot of noise, a lot of impact, and I think, you know, part Puff's genius was figuring out that it was amazing juice. It was amazing liquid, with beautiful bottles. So if you positioned it the right way in culture, you could create a wave. And that wave has been historic. This was a brand that was doing, you know, cases annually and now this is a case brand globally. Huge brand in the spirits industry in a sector that was big, vodka's a very, very big sector. Tequila we're growing Deleon as the sector's growing as well. So it's just, again, from a marketing perspective, a different set of challenges, but the same principles apply to how we think about leveraging culture. Leveraging, you know, our ability to kinda set trends to help drive a career meaningful brand, but it all also starts with a great quality liquid that we stand by. I mean, one of the things, right? Yeah. I think one of the things has always been super consistent about is the authenticity around, like, standing behind the products he brings to market. There's not a variant of Deleon or flavor that gets released without Puff. Personally, we stamped that saying, you know, this is okay to go to market with our income. [00:14:03] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah, cuz I think the distinction too on the flip side with tequila is like, not even that it's so much education cuz I think a lot of people know tequila, but just getting the consumer a bit of a visual of yes, this is the setting where not just our brand but this broader aspect. And I know there's 1800 and there's like others too. Yeah. But like you all be able to be like, hey, This is where, so some of that, what I think worked so well for sag, just in terms of thinking back to those like Vegas promo shots where they had all the people there being able to, you know, have whatever the tequila and Deleon equivalent is of that. [00:14:39] Tarik Brooks:  Yeah. I mean, look, I think a part of the tequila growth story is helping people understand that, you know, while they may have been introduced to tequila, you know, with shots on spring break or something like that, you know, once you learn more, you learn a much more complex liquid that can be enjoyed a lot of different ways mixed drinks, neat, you know, over on the rocks, you know, and all the other kinds of occasions. So I think part of our experience is helping people understand that it's versatility is part of why it's growing as fast as grown.  [00:15:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think too, just thinking more broadly about spirits and things that people enjoy you all now going into cannabis, I think that there are definitely some similarities there. People wanna be able to relax and enjoy what they choose, but so different in terms of not just regulation, but the culture. How has it been, just, I know, even thinking about the origins of that deal, how some of that playbook and mentality can be leveraged for what you all have now with this massive opportunity in cannabis? [00:15:41] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I mean, look, there are certainly two categories that are at very different stages, but you know, you could argue they've been on similar journeys, right? Like there was a point in time when alcohol was prohibited. When you look at the history of cannabis, you know, you start to realize a lot of the way this product category was treated was less around the specific impact of the product and more around the specific influence. The culture that was around, you know, before that was hip hop, cannabis was huge in the jazz community. And the jazz community was something that black people were bringing and spreading throughout the United States in a meaningful way and, you know, real impact culturally, and there were folks that didn't wanna see that happen. And so a part of the criminalization of cannabis was connected to slowing down the influence of that jazz, that black culture. And so you've seen over the past years been that cannabis has been illegal, you know, the disproportionate criminalization of black people as it relates to cannabis, more than white people. And so this opportunity is an opportunity that gives us a chance to basically through doing good sound business, you know, rights and historical wrongs. When you look at the last 10 years of legal cannabis, Despite, you know, the overcriminalization of black people, it is dominated by white men. You know, 85, 86% owned by white men. Black people only own 2% of the space, and so for us, particularly coming in this way, it gives us an opportunity to kind of make change and enter the business at scale to be able to come in with a three state footprint and be able to use that as a platform to help change the cannabis ecosystem to make sure to use our platform to enable black and brown people to participate in the industry in a number of different ways. To be able to use our voice, to be able to help shape the way regulators and lawmakers think about how cannabis needs to be developed going forward, and continue to do what we do at our core, which is bring our audience, great quality product for them to enjoy. [00:17:46] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I do think that those stats you mentioned are just around the 2% of the business, that is only being, again, like I said, at this point, currently run and administered by black people. And that's in America, right?  [00:18:00] Tarik Brooks: In America in the US. It is gonna continue to be a leader in global cannabis. So a lot of countries look to see, you know, what the US is doing and how they're thinking about deregulation and how they shape their rules. And, for us it's a big part of what we do is helping people to see how the way things are set up negatively impacts our community. So when you look at, you know, the cannabis industry broadly working to change the way cannabis is scheduled by the federal government and how it's treated by the federal government and how banks are able to interact with cannabis companies. All of those things make it hard for the industry broadly, but it makes it extra hard for us because when you look at industries without those, We don't get the same access to capital, we don't get the same access to opportunities. So it's one of those things where, you know, once again, we're starting from behind the eight ball, but what our, you know, perspective allows us to do is start from a different vantage point, right? Like it is an extremely difficult time to raise money in cannabis. And so for us to be able to pull off something, this big speech. You know, the success and track record that Puff has had building quality grants, building quality companies, and being able to find the kinda talent you need to come in and create value. And so we're excited man. We think this is gonna be a huge event for the cannabis industry. We think it's gonna be a huge event for us to help our community create meaningful wealth. Cause ultimately, you know, as business people, we wanna use our skills and resources create wealth for our community. [00:19:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And like you said, definitely, you know, huge undertaking and make this happen. Can you talk a little bit more about some of the steps to get from the first idea, maybe it's you and Puff talking about, Hey, you know, we should do this, we should get into this business. Then boom, the announcement comes. Like, what were some of the steps to help make this happen?  [00:19:53] Tarik Brooks:  So we have been exploring the cannabis industry, you know, with different levels of intensity since looking at opportunities. Starting to understand how the industry works, getting closer and closer to the space, you know, building relationships with entrepreneurs and companies in the space to kinda understand how things develop. I joined the board of Cresco Labs, you know, one cause I wanted to learn more about the industry. I thought they were a great company. But two, from that vantage point, you were able to see how the industry works and how things develop. And so when this opportunity came along, which was really driven by Acquisition of Columbia Care by Cresco. They, by regulation, have to divest assets. This opportunity to look at a portfolio of assets that are good, you know, good, strong businesses. Generating revenue, generating cash flow today to be able to come, bring those into our portfolio and then do what we do to create meaningful brands around those assets seem like a phenomenal opportunity. And so, look, these things take time to develop and it's a long process of, you know, doing the due diligence, raising the capital, going through all the steps you have to do to actually close a deal. But we believe it's gonna be a phenomenal historic deal once it's closed and wherever operated. And we think, like, look, when you look at pub's track record of building brands in music, in fashion, in spirits, you know, should extend, we believe it's gonna extend itself to cannabis and meaningful given how influential and impactful cannabis is in culture. [00:21:28] Dan Runcie: And we definitely know that there are a lot of regulatory challenges in this space for sure. And I also know that there are several other celebrity investors, even some in hip hop that have started businesses in this space and haven't necessarily been able to help take them to the next level. Do you have thoughts about some of those, I guess how business now moving forward can help address and overcome some of those hurdles that maybe some others weren't quite able to get past. [00:21:58] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, so I take those in pieces. What I would say is, you know, we believe over the long term, the federal view on cannabis will change. We believe cannabis will ultimately, eventually be legal, you know, throughout the United States and in all 50 States. But we don't know when that's gonna happen. And so none of our investment thesis, none of our modeling, none of our business case was built on imminent regulatory relief. And so while, you know, we hope for it and we wanna help shape how lawmakers think about it the same way the rest of the issue does. Nothing in our core premise for doing this deal was built on the expectation of regulatory relief this year, next year, five years from now. Right. So that's the one thing I would do. That said, we wanna be immediately a part of the conversation cause cannabis is so connected to our community. And so we're gonna jump into that conversation at the state level. We're gonna jump into that conversation at the national level. Now going to the second part of your question. You know, one of the things I think is the biggest, you know, misnomer when people think about, you know, Sean comes entering cannabis, is thinking about this as a celebrity cannabis deal, right? When I think about this and when Puff and I have always talked about it. What we think about. A guy with an amazing track record of building culturally relevant brands. Is that relevant in cannabis? Yes. Check, right. You know, does he have resources and the platform to be able to raise the capital to do a deal like this. Check. Does he have the ability to attract the kind of talent you need? Check right. Now. You also then say, is this celebrity extremely valuable in getting the word out? Brilliant. Absolutely. But that's not the core premise of what we're trying to do, right? Like we will get as much value through all the things we can learn throughout our ecosystem and how our customers and all of our other businesses think about. As we'll get from Sean Holmes, the celebrity. Right? And so from that perspective, you know, we don't expect to have our business be a celebrity driven brand per se. It's gonna be built on the back of great brand building, great marketing, and very strategic and efficient operations. [00:24:07] Dan Runcie: And I think that ties into something you had said in a recent interview about how insights from Revolt, for instance, can inform some of the decisions that you make with the cannabis business. [00:24:18] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. I mean, look, when you think about an ecosystem like ours that spans from spirits, music, media, fashion, with every interaction with our audience, you create. So every time posts go up from their social media, you know, there's data that comes back. Every Ciroc transaction generates data when Revolt has shows on all the different platforms that has shows on cable, YouTube, In app, all those different platforms generate data. As you compile that data, you're able to kinda look at it with a different lens and pull insights from that. What we're then able to do is take the data that we get from the cannabis industry that everybody else in cannabis is getting. But when you start putting those things together in unique ways, that's how you start to generate interesting insights that everybody's just not gonna have access to 'em. So that's where we think, again, we have a real competitive advantage in how we think about what we do in the space. That'll impact everything from, you know, how our stores look and feel, and what that experience will be what products we lead with how we think about price points, how we change things from state to state. A lot of that will be driven by insights that not only come from the cannabis industry, but that are informed by the other businesses in our portfolio as well.  [00:25:32] Dan Runcie: And this steps into, I think, a broader conversation of some of the categorization of someone like Puff and the work that he does in that the media can often put him alongside other people who have happened to be a recording artist on a track and compare their business ventures in the same way. And what you're essentially saying is, You can't compare us all the same way. Did they build a revolt? [00:26:01] Tarik Brooks: It's so hard cause it's like, I don't wanna deny how impactful he is as an entertainer. Epic performances. When you think about, and not just performances in music, performances in movies, performances on Broadway. Like the guy is quintessential, entertaining. You know, by all means, like you can't argue that. But I think when you try to look at him narrowly as just that you are really missing the picture. Cause I think that underestimates or understates, how difficult, it’s to build a bad boy into a success, to build a success, build a revolt, to build us rock, to build a Deleon, to build three schools, like that, that's not just on the back of him. An amazing entertainer, right? Like that speaks to his business instincts, his ability to spot trends, his ability to kinda find and cultivate talent, like those are all things that are universal in business. Leave aside what he's been able to do as an entertainer, I would argue, had he never got on the mic or touched the stage, he would've been just that successful business person just on the back. His business, you know, acumen and abilities. And so that's where, when we're in these conversations and people think about, you know, in cannabis this came up recently, people say like, well, you know, celebrity brands haven't really worked. And I'm like, lemme take a second to help you understand why this is different from a celebrity brand opportunity. The other thing that's different that I think is important for people to understand is when we take control of these assets, we'll be fully vertically integrated in the States that we operate, which, we are gonna cultivate, we are a process. We are gonna manufacture, we're gonna distribute, we're gonna sell. So these are all pieces of the business value chain that we'll operate. Again, not so relevant from the celebrity space. This is all around how do you build and run high quality businesses? And that's where I think you have to look at our business portfolio to understand how impactful Puff is throughout his career. And you just don't see those things that the only lens you're looking at is through him as the celebrity.  [00:28:10] Dan Runcie: I could see this topic also coming up in some ways, potentially from an investment perspective, where you all have companies that are trying to either get you to invest or you're evaluating them and at some point someone on the other side of the table may come to you and be like, Hey, well if you invest in us, can we get a shout out in a song? Can we get an Instagram post? Can we do this? Like these things that view Puff as the influencer as opposed to the business leader that has all of these things. [00:28:39] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. What I found just in my experience and I've been working with Puff almost six years now. Most of it typically comes with how people were introduced to them and the depth or lack thereof of their understanding of what he's been able to do throughout his career. There's a lot of stuff, you know, people just don't necessarily, you know, attribute to him in the way they should. So usually that journey is one where it's about informing people to say things like, let's make sure you have all the perspective and then think about kinda how this can make sense. Cause again, there's no denying his impact and influence as a celebrity. He's huge. Like, he's a big name, he's an iconic person in culture. But I think to only think about him that way now, I think when people start to understand, you know, what working with Combs Enterprises means more broadly, you start to understand the power of the platform that we really have. And that's where I think it gets really exciting for the people.  [00:29:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I agree. That makes sense. From an investment perspective specifically though, do you feel like, is that something that often needs to be addressed with startups or with founders or others that may be whether deep down they may be looking for something and I'm more so asking that in a way because I've seen it happen to others and given this conversation, I can see that especially being somewhat frustrating where it's like, Hey, I hope you're not just interested in this to think you're gonna get a shout out. [00:30:03] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. I mean, so look, I'll tell you when we are evaluating investment opportunities and people are looking at ideals, I don't think that is a thing that people are using as their primary driver. Do I think there are people who will be like nice to have, do they hope to get to meet them? Do they hope to get all those? Sure. Right. Like, again, all 'em, all those kinds of things. But I think when we get, you know, evaluating real deals. I think one thing that surprises people is the rigor with which we do our due diligence and our analysis, right? And so that's the first thing you see to say like, well this is not just, you know, high level celebrity thing. This is being looked at with real deep due diligence and real deep analysis. And I think from there it starts to shake away that kinda filter of, oh, oh, I'm gonna try to just get a celebrity deal done. Cause it's just not the way we do business. And I think people get that.  [00:31:02] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. Leslie. Yeah. Especially if there's a due diligence process that they're seeing on their side. And maybe we could talk a little bit more about that, like from a high level, for a lot of the investments you do, maybe less like the cannabis deals, but more on the venture side, do you have a particular sweet spot in terms of, you know, this is normally the dollar amount range, or this is normally what we put in, or this is normally what we are looking for? [00:31:26] Tarik Brooks: So, we have, you know, flexibility, right? We're not a fund that has to, you know, stick to a certain sector or a certain stage of growth the way, you know, funds are typically mandated to do so. We do have flexibility, but that said, going back to the earlier comment I was making, we tend to look at businesses where we see some application. At places within our current portfolio. Right? So like, I don't know that you'll ever see us do like, you know, some like heavy machinery deals or you know, enterprise software, things like that. Cause that's not natural, when you look at interface with the businesses we operate in, it becomes a lot more interesting for us. And so while we apply, you know, the very standard kinda ways of assessing, you know, the quality of the leadership team, the uniqueness of the opportunity, how opportunity is the total addressable market opportunity. Ultimately, we look at all those things just like every other, you know, person who investigates an opportunity. I think where it gets unique is for us, once we've gone through all that, we then sit back and say, okay, you know, how many of our businesses could actually utilize this offering? You know, how many different places do we think we can use this throughout our portfolio? And then it starts to become even more interesting. So, that's kinda how we get there. Now, to be clear, like we don't have a hard mandate or a set of funds. We have to put the work in the way the fund does, and so we tend to be very, very opportunistic. We pick what we do very carefully to be investing. So as we see economic conditions change as we see market conditions. We're able to just say like, all right, let's take a step back. Let's wait and see how things play out. And I think that helped. I mean, it helped us avoid, you know, some of the frustrations some folks are seeing in the web and cryptocurrency world. Cause we weren't forced to go aggressively and do something too fast. We saw the market was evolving and so we were able to take a step back, and continue to evaluate it. So from that perspective, there's a lot of flex.  [00:33:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense, especially given that, yeah, there's no fun mandates though. It's not like you're burned because there's a winter or something like that. [00:33:44] Tarik Brooks: Absolutely, and the reality is we're always investing in our core portfolio as well, right? So we think about whether we wanna put millions into, you know, a startup passively. Part of the kinda analysis is to know where we could deploy in our current portfolio and does that make more sense? Right? And so there's that kinda flow of how we think about deals as well. [00:34:07] Dan Runcie:  Yeah, that makes sense. A couple months ago, there were headlines that Puff had apparently done an investment in Twitter around the time that Elon Musk had. Was that actually a thing, or did that come through or? [00:34:21] Tarik Brooks: Look, so like Puff and Elon like have a relationship.You know, Twitter is a very interesting situation in that when you look at, you know, the side like Twitter's impact in society is certainly bigger than how it shows up from. You know, profit and loss and from a market cap perspective, and when you look at, you know, where Twitter is trading today is trading at a fraction of where like a Facebook or even like a Snapchat is I think, at this point. And so the question becomes, you know, from an investment perspective, like do you think, you know, with some changes you could create meaningful value in Twitter, that platform. And so I think while you know, the kind of, the kind of statements in the press were overstated. There was a small investment in Twitter, but it's nothing. People get pieces of information and run, so we just, you know, we gotta sit back. [00:35:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think the way you framed it is correct. Right? I think it's definitely one of the 40 billion companies that creates more headlines than most other 44 billion companies we could probably even think of. [00:35:29] Tarik Brooks: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, like with some decisions to be a much more viable company than today and the verdict's still out, like those changes happen in real time and cause of how, you know, big the platform is in society. You know, you're seeing those things play out in the press and, you know, I'm sure Elon's campus is trying to work as methodically as they can through those changes. As they figure out what is the right, you know, kind end state for, for that platform.  [00:36:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. The other side of the investment piece, of course, I think we talked a lot about Combs Enterprises point Capital, but on the other side of it too, thinking specifically about everything happening in music catalogs over the past couple of years, everyone wants these valuable catalogs with this timeless music. Combs has one of the most valuable hip hop, r&b black music catalogs of the past 30 years with Bad Boy Records. There hasn't been any public news about any sales, but I am sure that people must have been calling nonstop trying to at least see what they could get in there. What were those conversations like? I'm sure at some point it must have come up of Rick, whether it's running the bum numbers or even thinking through like, what would this look like?  [00:36:45] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. Well look, I think as you know, like part of the interest in these catalogs is driven by the fact that, you know, the returns they generate aren't really correlated to the market, right? Like they’re like if you have, you know, a high quality performing catalog, it's gonna generate returns and generate cash flow irrespective of the ups and downs of the markets. And so that's attractive to investors. That said, for those same reasons, it's attractive to us, right? Like it is a great quality, high performing catalog. And for us, part of how, you know, we think about things, we think about like Puff's long-term vision, right? Like we're getting back into how he's getting back into music now with Love Records. You know, he's gonna build that platform in the way that makes sense as you think about the way culture and the music industry continues to evolve. And for us, we're in no rush to get rid of a portfolio that could be a part of that. Like who knows how you think about those assets in the future. And so for us, we're spending a lot of time thinking about what the future of music is gonna look like. And you know how Puff is gonna participate in that, what that looks like. And so for us, you know, again, you don't have, you know, some of the time constraints that you get from being they're public company or you know, money at a certain time. So we had the benefit of being able to go slow and kinda take our time and basically run experiments at our own pace to figure out what we wanna do. And so from that perspective, people have, you know, continually come through with offers and with opportunities and things. And we've purposely taken our time as we've about what, you know, Puff's experience of music is gonna be over the next, you know, next years as he climbs when he talks about it's his second, right? Like he's at the point of his career where he's accomplished and he's thinking about what that second looks like. Music has always been a very important part of his life, and so music is gonna be a part of that. Second, we're shaping what that looks like. And so from our perspective, there was no reason to move.  [00:38:46] Dan Runcie:  That makes a lot of sense and I think for you, there's two things that are different with you all compared to some of the others. Two of them you touched on, but one of them is that you already have the infrastructure in place on how to do things that can help maximize the asset of the Bad Boy Records catalog. It isn't like one of these situations like where the Whitney Houston catalog, like it was dormant before Primary Wave came in and obviously they've like, you know, forseed it since they acquired it three years ago. And it isn't like one of these other legacy artists that, you know, the estate may be in shambles and things just aren't lined up. And yeah, for them it probably makes sense to just get a lump sum of money and be able to distribute that instead of hoping that your relatives who may not be trained in managing this type of asset can't continue doing it forward. Like you all have that. And I think that's part of it. [00:39:37] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. And I think there's a couple ways to think about it too, right? Like, cause these artists work so hard to create these assets. You know, why sell 'em? Why get rid of them? But I think there's a couple ways you can think about. You can say one, alright, we may be at peak pricing. And so it's like, you know what, lemme sell while things are hot. You know, take the cash, be able to take the money off the table and invest other ways. You also, particularly with younger artists to say, all right, I'll sell this catalog, but if I'm still creating, I can continue to create and you know, build new works that will create value as well. And so I think there's different logic for different artists in terms of, you know, why they think about selling and why they sell when they do that, you know, in some respect make, particularly if you're looking at it from a purely financial perspective. But again, we were unique in the way that we have an ecosystem that helps continue to keep catalog relevant. We're back in music now, and so again, that also helps to create the halo effect across all of our ecosystems. And so for us, there just really isn't a rush to move too quickly, like where we can think about what is the kinda value maximizing way to utilize the catalog and whatever else we're doing to create the best outcomes.  [00:40:54] Dan Runcie: Right. I think that's a good way to put it too, like you said, numbers are there and if you wanna sell, there are sound financial reasons that someone may choose to do so for you all, and given Puff's current goals in music, it just may not make the most sense, but with that though, shifting gears a bit, one business we haven't talked a lot about is Sean John and I know this is a business that the team had sold a couple years back. The company that bought it. Things didn't quite work out there. You all then bought it back recently. So where are things right now with Sean John? [00:41:32] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, Sean John is super exciting, right? So you first start with an iconic, you know, street brand, right? You know, this is again another example. Being able to see where fashion was going, seeing how, you know, folks in our community were wearing other brands to get particular silhouettes and have it, you know, look a certain way and feel a certain way, and then be able to build a brand. That became a real like a foundational piece of, you know, hip hop culture. And through that process, Puff was the first African American man to win the CFDA award, which is the biggest award you can win in fashion, right? So truly iconic sold the brand. The buyers at the time weren't able to figure out how to maximize it, so they created the opportunity for us to buy back. And so what we're excited to do now, and we're in this process with Puff of really reimagining what can and should be for this generation, right? Like as much as you know, we all love the iconic valore sweatsuits and all rest it like, maybe that's a part of the future. Maybe it's a different brand position, different way, but like spending time. Actually really ideate on that and get to the right concept to bring it back again. We have the benefit cause, you know, we operate this portfolio, we don't have the pressure to rush. Like we don't have to, you know, do something right away to be able to, you know, capture that value overnight. You know, we have the luxury of being able to take our time and what I found with Puff is he likes to be able to, one, work with the quality people he possibly can and really run ideas through the ringer in terms of, you know, having people question his logic, test the thinking. Really, really pressure test to see if it's the right way before we do something. So what I can say is, right now in the lab, like, you know, there's creative folks that are thinking through, you know, what Sean John could be and should be and isn't engaged in that process. And so it's exciting I think when we do hit on the market, we're gonna come back in a way that one pays homage to the legacy of John, but then isn't just caught in what to be, is really thinking about what the brand could mean and should mean to, you know, new generations. [00:43:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. And I feel like when it happened too, it definitely generated some excitement. So I feel like there's some good momentum.  [00:43:47] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I think a lot of the folks who are dominating the fashion world now, were inspired, you know, by, you know, fans. So the fact that it's a brand is still, you know, relevant to people in different ways, gives us a great building. Like, I would rather be trying to kinda help people connect to this brand with so much history and legacy than trying to build a brand from scratch. You know? I think it provides a good foundation. Like's aspiration is to build iconic, long-lasting brands. So when you think about iconic brands that have been around for 55, you know, longer periods of time, that's what the goal is. And so, and those brands have gone through research, you know, any iconic brands gone off, of kinda laws and growth. And so for us, this is just really, you know, the second chapter of something that's gonna, you know, be a part of our community and our culture for years ago.  [00:44:45] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. And for you specifically, if we zoom out a bit, looking at the past six years since you've been there, we definitely talked a lot about wins, a lot of the successes. But are there any setbacks or are there any missed opportunities that you look back on, especially the past six years since you've been there being like, oh, I wonder if we did this differently with this brand. I wonder if we did that differently?  [00:45:07] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I think for us, one of the things I appreciate about Puff and it's a value that we both share, which you know, you look at everything as like a learning opportunity to say like maybe the outcome didn't go your way, but there was plenty of stuff you could learn from if you embrace the opportunity the right way. So like I look at the fact that it was back in was announced as an opportunity. We saw the value of the team and the value of the assets all around. You thought it was a great opportunity, pursued it. You know, the group that we were part of didn't win, but through that process, learned a ton about that space. You know, I met great people, you know, business partners and relationships that we still engaged with in different things today all came from that opportunity. So like, you know, while, look, I would've loved to be able to win that deal or bring that home, you know, I think there's a lot that comes from it. It sets us up for the things we do, you know, when I think about, David, we talked about the Revolt Summit earlier, right? Like, you know, as we were building the Revolt Summit, you know, we bring it back after, I think a year off. And then in 2020 the pandemic hit. So we gotta basically shut it down and go virtual. But like coming outta those were things we learned about how we're gonna in the future. So this year, you know, the biggest Revolt Summit ever, how's Metaverse versus online? Like all those things coming around. Again, learnings that you utilize going forward. And so, you know, whether it's you thinking through every single flavor in the portfolio or every single bab in the artist roster, even the ones that don't work out the way, you know, you want them to work out their stuff. You can learn from that help, impact and help you to be better as you move forward. That's the way we think. You know, and I talk all the time about just, you know, transparently looking at the things that go right and go wrong and making sure we're learning. [00:47:05] Dan Runcie: Can we actually talk a little bit about the Carolina Panthers one specifically? Because I know you all said that you didn't win the bid, but was it an aspect of being outbid or the owners or someone just choosing someone different? Like how did that all go down? Cause I remember the headlines about it. I remember that there were a few other prominent black public figures that were in that ownership group too. [00:47:27] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I mean, look, what I would say is, you know, the person that you know ended up winning the bid, I believe, if I remember correctly, had, you know, the highest bid relationship. I think from that perspective, he kinda knew the league, well, and, and was prepared in a number of different ways to be able to take it down. And I would just say the group that we were part of kinda fell short in that way. But what's interesting is, you know, the number, and I just can't remember real time, the exact number he ended up paying for. When you look at the number that people think that the Washington Commanders are gonna command, and the number that the Denver Barcos commanded. You know, while that number he paid was high at the time, you know, it's not even half what somebody might pay for the Washington Commanders. And so perspective, you're willing to pay for something. You gotta live with the fact that there's just maybe willing to pay more for it than you. Right. And so, you know, we ended up being a part of a really sharp group that, you know, had thought really hard about, you know, what was in this case. You know, we rounded. So, you know, again, it's one of those things you learn from, right? Like, you know, sports, entertainment, and business is very unique. You know, assets, you know, come available at different points in time. It's all about thinking about, you know, what do you think the asset is worth? What do you think you can do with it, you know, to translate to what you think it should be worth. And somewhere in that analysis you get to what you think you should pay for, right? And that's where you kinda make your move. And in that case, you know that there were just folks willing to pay for.  [00:49:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, I think that's a good point too. Cause I feel like I might be misquoting, but I feel like the Panther's bid was somewhere, I think it was under 3 billion at least. [00:49:20] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I believe you're right. I wanna be careful. I just don't remember exactly. But yeah, I remember it being less than 3 billion and I think the number they're saying for Washington Commanders now, like 7 billion and so I imagine, you know, like when you think about where the value of that Panthers is going, probably going. They probably did really well. So I mean, again, and we believed it was gonna do well and continue to do well. I mean, when you look at the size of the deal, I guess Google or YouTube just did it with the NFL. The NFL is a platform, right? When you look at, at least for the last couple years, I haven't seen 2022. When you look at the list of the top 50 watched things on television every year, 40 plus of them are football games. Right? Right. It's just that powerful of an entertainment platform, so therefore commands the prices of command.  [00:50:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Well, hopefully. Whether it's this group or some combination of others that we know we're interested in. Hopefully we see something happen soon in the sports ownership space. But this was great. I know we covered a bunch of topics in this one, and before we let you go though, is there anything that you didn't cover that the audience should stay looking out for or that we should be thinking about moving forward? [00:50:34] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I think 23 is a year that the audience should look out for a lot from, from the Combs organization. You know, music out of Love Records, including album and power, global e-commerce platform. Kinda reimagining how, you know, black people circulate dollars in our community. You know, the cannabis venture closing and beginning to build brands and establish meaningful footprints in the markets that it's in. There's just a lot of new things in 23, so there will be a lot coming outta our camp that we're super excited about, and so it's gonna be big.  [00:51:08] Dan Runcie: We'll keep our lookout for that, man. All right. Appreciate you spending the time, man. [00:51:12] Tarik Brooks: Thanks so much, man.Take care. [00:51:14] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Sean “Diddy” Combs is one of hip-hop’s most serial entrepreneurs. His business track record stretches 30 years with successes in completely-different industries — music (Bad Boys Records), clothing (Sean John), spirits (Ciroc and DeLeon), media (Revolt), among many other ventures. To take a closer look at Combs' empire, I brought on Tarik Brooks, who is the president of Combs Enterprises. 


Many chalk up Diddy’s entrepreneurial success to his influence and brand alone. While Tarik doesn’t deny Diddy’s star power, he also argues that line of thinking understates Diddy’s business acumen — his ability to spot trends, attract talent, raise capital, and so forth. 


Not only that, but the broadness of Combs Enterprises is a unique competitive advantage. Diddy’s different businesses across sectors give them unique data points that can drive decision-making. The group announced a new foray into cannabis in late 2022. However, they won’t enter the space completely void of knowledge. Using insights from Revolt or Ciroc, they can glean how customers think about cannabis already. 

 

Tarik and I dove deep into Diddy’s sprawling business empire this episode — the “why” not the “how” behind Puff’s success. Here’s what you can expect to hear: 


[0:00] Combs Enterprises’ focus in 2023

[2:22] Synergies between Diddy’s different businesses 

[4:40] Using Revolt Summit as a testing ground 

[6:29] Origins of the “Ciroc playbook”  

[9:32] How much strategic overlap is there between Ciroc and DeLeon marketing? 

[15:41] Entering the cannabis space

[18:00] Regulatory challenges in the cannabis industry

[26:01] Why Diddy is not just another celebrity entrepreneur 

[30:03] How Combs Enterprises invests in startups

[34:21] Did Diddy really back Elon Musk’s purchase of Twitter?

[36:45] No rush to sell Bad Boy Records catalog 

[41:32] Sean John comeback 

[47:05] Diddy’s attempt to buy the Carolina Panthers in 2018



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Tarik A. Brooks, @tarikamin

 

 

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

 

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.


TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Tarik Brooks: Twitter's impact in society is certainly bigger than how it shows up from a profit and loss and from a market cap perspective. And when you look at, you know, where Twitter is trading today is trading at a fraction of like Facebook or like Snapchat is the question from an investment perspective with some you could create meaningful.

[00:00:33] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. 

[00:00:53] Dan Runcie: All right, today we got my guy, Tarik Brooks, the president of Combs Enterprises. Second time on the podcast. Great to have you back, man.

[00:01:01] Tarik Brooks: Happy New Year my brother. Great to be back. 

[00:01:03] Dan Runcie: So what's the latest from the House of Combs?

[00:01:08] Tarik Brooks: Things are wonderful enterprises, man. Tremendous 2022, where we did a lot of investing in our existing platforms and in new platforms. And so, you know, the big push in 23. Is to operationalized and grow a lot of those new platforms. You know, a lot of people are familiar with the cannabis deal, which we announced late last year. We're gonna close that deal and get that operational. We've also been working on an e-commerce platform with Salesforce, called it Power Global, that will launch this year, you know, released music last year. That did great. I mean, he and a sub-Christian. You know, with the first father and son duo to be number one. At the same time, there'll be more projects from Love Records coming in this year. So a lot of new things are in 23, so I wanna accustom a lot of exciting developments. 

[00:01:56] Dan Runcie: And I feel like one of the strengths for him whenever he is launching a new brand is being able to find some type of synergy between something that he's done that's already worked and finding some way to tie it all together. And for you, I know you've been there for a couple years. Is there like one company or one tie in that really stands out about, oh yeah, what Puff is able to do here? Tweak the formula a little bit, brought it over to this company and then it helped that one too.

[00:02:22] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. It is interesting, man, like, because you know, with the ecosystem we have that there are synergies all over the place that we work hard to exploit everyday. What I'll tell you bigger thing is that underneath our ecosystem sits the core premise, a core belief that our culture drives culture, that our people drive what's cool and what's next and what's hot in a meaningful way. So, you know, you go back to blues and jazz and rock and roll to hip hop, TikTok, viral dances, like our people drive that. And so if you look at all of the different elements in our ecosystem. What you see are different sectors that we drive through our cultural presence. And so when you look at our platform through that lens, you see how they all fit together. So then synergies just become finding places where, you know, we can work together to make one plus one equal three or four. Right? And so like, you know, easy examples when you think about how you know our brands will show up at the Revolt Summit. So Revolt hosts this amazing event every year in Atlanta. 10,000 people come. It gives us an opportunity to kinda have revolt, touch to people, but also have ourown touch to people for us to do research for new companies that we're developing the test concepts. These are ways that we don't place there with our ecosystem. I mean, I look at a great example. Deleon tequila. Used Druski in an ad, you know, super funny guy. Did a tremendous job with the ad. We then, you know, connected in with the team in Revolt and he did something with Revolt. It ended up being a great, great opportunity there. So like throughout our ecosystem, you see all these opportunities that exist with our portfolio companies and with the companies that we invest in. We think about how we invest and part of it is all the stuff you expect from any traditional investment vehicle. You know, do you have great leadership? Do you have a strong destructive concept? But what we also know about there two or three ways that this thing could be utilized is our ecosystem for the company. So it's an everyday activity, you know, finding, exploiting, and developing those things 

[00:04:31] Dan Runcie:  You mentioned earlier about the Revolt Summit and how that can be a test space for whether it's new products or new things. Can you talk more about that? Cause I think that's really interesting. 

[00:04:40] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, so I mean this past Revolt Summit, the team at Empowered Global, which is the eCommerce platform that I just mentioned, had a space set up where they could introduce the concept to the participants at the Revolt Summit. And more than that, we actually had, and it was, I gotta find you a picture of this. A digital vending machine that was filled with black-owned products. So, and kinda like what you would see at the airport where you have vending machines, where they kinda have, you know, non typical vending machine products, headphones, and different things like that. Our vending machine that we had set up in the Revolt Summit was all filled with products that were owned by black that came from black owned companies. And so that was like just a real example. In that moment, we were able to introduce people to the concept of the platform, try out some new tech and get real time feedback from people who we believe will be a part of that target. 

[00:05:34] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Yeah. Because you wanna have people that are first bought in, you get the people there and I think the people that are gonna attend Revolt Summit likely end up being culture shapers or mavens within their particular area themselves. They start saying something's good, and then they can, you know, go back and that's how you're able to spread things.

[00:05:52] Tarik Brooks: 100%. It's the way, you know, everybody talks about it in terms of synergies, but we like to talk about it in terms of not planting there, right? Like we have these resources, we have these brands that mean something to people. You know that the most impactful thing we can do is find out how putting those brands together at different times in different ways produces more information, produces more insight, produces more, you know, revenue generating opportunity than any of those entities in silos. So for me, like the silo is the enemy, right? Like the key is to have all of our leaders and all of our team members continuously engaging in a very fluid way.

[00:06:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, the one that always stuck out to me too was Ciroc and the on the ground promotion for that, because there are so many through lines going back to The Bad Boy Days, the Bad Boy Street team, and then the Ciroc Boys. It's very similar playbook and being able to help push that. 

[00:06:45] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I mean, look, and again, the playbook is the same. It's the same. You know, when you look at what the spirits industry looked at at the time, it was very different from today. You know, a lot of folks don't realize at that time the only people really trying to market, know black people in the hip was more liquor. Right? Cause I know I wasn't on the team back then, but what I can tell you is he looked at how nightlife worked and how the culture was working and evolving and saw a huge opportunity for an aspirational luxury product. And then was able to apply a lot of the same tools that were driving his success in the music business in spirits. And so that's how you end up with us showing up better than most people in the nightlife, us being able to have the DJs, you know, be a part of our experience. Cause Puff knew back then, in which he knows now how powerful DJs are in the culture and in the communities he lives in. If you look at even now, like a lot of, you know what he's posted socially as, you know, the efforts around love, records, respect. Like, we get what algorithms can do, but understand like DJ is culturally important. Like they mean something to their communities and they mean something to our culture. And in that way they have outside influence, that I think people still underestimate. 

[00:08:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think as much as things have been movement streaming or NFTs or whatever it is, people still wanna go to the club and people still want to be in the hands of a DJ that knows what they're doing and can introduce them.

[00:08:12] Tarik Brooks: Absolutely. There is power and curation. Right. And look, theoretically A.I. will be able to kind of take that input and lead curations that are solid. But you know it's tough to replicate, you know, instinct. And natural art, you know? Exactly. That's the thing, right? Like to be able to think you can do it with just an algorithm means it's all science. And I think, you know, most entertainment industries, particularly when you talk about the power of a DJ, are art and science together. That art is that intuitive thing that, like you, some folks just have, they know when to play the right record. You know, not just cause it's a similar bpm, but they know, cause they know that crowd, they know that venue. They know that audience better than most other people do.

[00:09:00] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And I think too, a lot of that we definitely saw with the Ciroc Playbook, but I wanna spend some time in this conversation talking a bit more about Deleon because, I think that that is relatively newer business for other portfolio, but I think there's a lot that's similar, but the lot that's different too in terms of how you've all rolled it out, what you've done, how you've done things differently. So love to start there and maybe start first specifically, how much of the Ciroc Playbook was used with what you've all done so far with Deleon?

[00:09:32] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, so I think the core premise stays the same, right? What Puff has been amazing at throughout his career is being able to spot and help develop trends very early. And he saw back in 2013, 2014, that the next wave in spirits was gonna be, you know, brown spirits, in particular tequila. And so when he formed the joint venture with Diageo, that he built that knowing that a tequila wave was coming. Now from the perspective of how industries developed, tequila and vodka are two very different places, right? It is very big, very mature right now, trying to fight off the growth of some of the spirits that are taking customers away, whereas tequila is smaller but fast growing. And it's also very nuanced. So like when you think about what we've been able to do driving Deleon's growth, and Deleon right now is the fastest growing tequila in the country, right?It's on fire right now and just, you know, small plug, you are new to tequila. Deleon are absolutely amazing. I will put them against any tequila that's out there, you know, so smooth ice cube, orange slice. You're good.

[00:10:41] Dan Runcie: But any numbers to share in terms of like, cases sold or anything like that?

[00:10:45] Tarik Brooks: So look, I'm not gonna go into the details on cases, but again, this is Nielsen’s data,this is not coming right? So right now, you look, it is triple digits right now, you know, comfortable cause to disclose. But what I would say is, you know, part of the Deleon story is making sure Deleon is relevant in culture. And when you hear Deleon Lemonade in the young Miami, I'm not sure when, when you see Deleon on, when you see Deleon sharp in these things, it's a part of ensuring Deleon is relevant in the culture and shows up the right way, but there's also a big part of the future of Deleon that will grow. Talking about the liquid itself, you know how we get to such a high quality. It is the fact that Deleon is aged in both American whiskey and French red wine barrels to get the distinctive taste that, like, that's just part of the story that we're still just beginning to tell and roll out as we build it. And from our view, we are building, you know, iconic, long lasting brands. We want Deleon to be thought of the same way you think about Johnny Walker or Hennessy or any other great brands that are out there. So our view is like you don't rush that thing, you develop that story over time. You feed people in, you bring people into the brand and then you culture that and as soon you cultivate that audience, you know, as it grows. And so, you know, a lot of the kinda principles that we've applied in growing, we're applying to Deleon, but we're also being very aware that, you know, vodka and very different liquids develop differently, Exactly The same. And you think about that as you start to position the brand. 

[00:12:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah, cuz I think that was a good point that you mentioned just in terms of how vodka has been the market leader just from a type of liquor for so long. So you didn't necessarily have to do that piece of it, but it was more so Yeah. How do you bring this brand that I think some people may have forgotten about, but bring it to the same level as your great gooses in your others. 

[00:12:44] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. People know people, I mean, look, the way Ciroc hadn't been positioned in a way that was creating a lot of noise, a lot of impact, and I think, you know, part Puff's genius was figuring out that it was amazing juice. It was amazing liquid, with beautiful bottles. So if you positioned it the right way in culture, you could create a wave. And that wave has been historic. This was a brand that was doing, you know, cases annually and now this is a case brand globally. Huge brand in the spirits industry in a sector that was big, vodka's a very, very big sector. Tequila we're growing Deleon as the sector's growing as well. So it's just, again, from a marketing perspective, a different set of challenges, but the same principles apply to how we think about leveraging culture. Leveraging, you know, our ability to kinda set trends to help drive a career meaningful brand, but it all also starts with a great quality liquid that we stand by. I mean, one of the things, right? Yeah. I think one of the things has always been super consistent about is the authenticity around, like, standing behind the products he brings to market. There's not a variant of Deleon or flavor that gets released without Puff. Personally, we stamped that saying, you know, this is okay to go to market with our income.

[00:14:03] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah, cuz I think the distinction too on the flip side with tequila is like, not even that it's so much education cuz I think a lot of people know tequila, but just getting the consumer a bit of a visual of yes, this is the setting where not just our brand but this broader aspect. And I know there's 1800 and there's like others too. Yeah. But like you all be able to be like, hey, This is where, so some of that, what I think worked so well for sag, just in terms of thinking back to those like Vegas promo shots where they had all the people there being able to, you know, have whatever the tequila and Deleon equivalent is of that.

[00:14:39] Tarik Brooks:  Yeah. I mean, look, I think a part of the tequila growth story is helping people understand that, you know, while they may have been introduced to tequila, you know, with shots on spring break or something like that, you know, once you learn more, you learn a much more complex liquid that can be enjoyed a lot of different ways mixed drinks, neat, you know, over on the rocks, you know, and all the other kinds of occasions. So I think part of our experience is helping people understand that it's versatility is part of why it's growing as fast as grown. 

[00:15:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think too, just thinking more broadly about spirits and things that people enjoy you all now going into cannabis, I think that there are definitely some similarities there. People wanna be able to relax and enjoy what they choose, but so different in terms of not just regulation, but the culture. How has it been, just, I know, even thinking about the origins of that deal, how some of that playbook and mentality can be leveraged for what you all have now with this massive opportunity in cannabis?

[00:15:41] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I mean, look, there are certainly two categories that are at very different stages, but you know, you could argue they've been on similar journeys, right? Like there was a point in time when alcohol was prohibited. When you look at the history of cannabis, you know, you start to realize a lot of the way this product category was treated was less around the specific impact of the product and more around the specific influence. The culture that was around, you know, before that was hip hop, cannabis was huge in the jazz community. And the jazz community was something that black people were bringing and spreading throughout the United States in a meaningful way and, you know, real impact culturally, and there were folks that didn't wanna see that happen. And so a part of the criminalization of cannabis was connected to slowing down the influence of that jazz, that black culture. And so you've seen over the past years been that cannabis has been illegal, you know, the disproportionate criminalization of black people as it relates to cannabis, more than white people. And so this opportunity is an opportunity that gives us a chance to basically through doing good sound business, you know, rights and historical wrongs. When you look at the last 10 years of legal cannabis, Despite, you know, the overcriminalization of black people, it is dominated by white men. You know, 85, 86% owned by white men. Black people only own 2% of the space, and so for us, particularly coming in this way, it gives us an opportunity to kind of make change and enter the business at scale to be able to come in with a three state footprint and be able to use that as a platform to help change the cannabis ecosystem to make sure to use our platform to enable black and brown people to participate in the industry in a number of different ways. To be able to use our voice, to be able to help shape the way regulators and lawmakers think about how cannabis needs to be developed going forward, and continue to do what we do at our core, which is bring our audience, great quality product for them to enjoy.

[00:17:46] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I do think that those stats you mentioned are just around the 2% of the business, that is only being, again, like I said, at this point, currently run and administered by black people. And that's in America, right? 

[00:18:00] Tarik Brooks: In America in the US. It is gonna continue to be a leader in global cannabis. So a lot of countries look to see, you know, what the US is doing and how they're thinking about deregulation and how they shape their rules. And, for us it's a big part of what we do is helping people to see how the way things are set up negatively impacts our community. So when you look at, you know, the cannabis industry broadly working to change the way cannabis is scheduled by the federal government and how it's treated by the federal government and how banks are able to interact with cannabis companies. All of those things make it hard for the industry broadly, but it makes it extra hard for us because when you look at industries without those, We don't get the same access to capital, we don't get the same access to opportunities. So it's one of those things where, you know, once again, we're starting from behind the eight ball, but what our, you know, perspective allows us to do is start from a different vantage point, right? Like it is an extremely difficult time to raise money in cannabis. And so for us to be able to pull off something, this big speech. You know, the success and track record that Puff has had building quality grants, building quality companies, and being able to find the kinda talent you need to come in and create value. And so we're excited man. We think this is gonna be a huge event for the cannabis industry. We think it's gonna be a huge event for us to help our community create meaningful wealth. Cause ultimately, you know, as business people, we wanna use our skills and resources create wealth for our community.

[00:19:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And like you said, definitely, you know, huge undertaking and make this happen. Can you talk a little bit more about some of the steps to get from the first idea, maybe it's you and Puff talking about, Hey, you know, we should do this, we should get into this business. Then boom, the announcement comes. Like, what were some of the steps to help make this happen? 

[00:19:53] Tarik Brooks:  So we have been exploring the cannabis industry, you know, with different levels of intensity since looking at opportunities. Starting to understand how the industry works, getting closer and closer to the space, you know, building relationships with entrepreneurs and companies in the space to kinda understand how things develop. I joined the board of Cresco Labs, you know, one cause I wanted to learn more about the industry. I thought they were a great company. But two, from that vantage point, you were able to see how the industry works and how things develop. And so when this opportunity came along, which was really driven by Acquisition of Columbia Care by Cresco. They, by regulation, have to divest assets. This opportunity to look at a portfolio of assets that are good, you know, good, strong businesses. Generating revenue, generating cash flow today to be able to come, bring those into our portfolio and then do what we do to create meaningful brands around those assets seem like a phenomenal opportunity. And so, look, these things take time to develop and it's a long process of, you know, doing the due diligence, raising the capital, going through all the steps you have to do to actually close a deal. But we believe it's gonna be a phenomenal historic deal once it's closed and wherever operated. And we think, like, look, when you look at pub's track record of building brands in music, in fashion, in spirits, you know, should extend, we believe it's gonna extend itself to cannabis and meaningful given how influential and impactful cannabis is in culture.

[00:21:28] Dan Runcie: And we definitely know that there are a lot of regulatory challenges in this space for sure. And I also know that there are several other celebrity investors, even some in hip hop that have started businesses in this space and haven't necessarily been able to help take them to the next level. Do you have thoughts about some of those, I guess how business now moving forward can help address and overcome some of those hurdles that maybe some others weren't quite able to get past.

[00:21:58] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, so I take those in pieces. What I would say is, you know, we believe over the long term, the federal view on cannabis will change. We believe cannabis will ultimately, eventually be legal, you know, throughout the United States and in all 50 States. But we don't know when that's gonna happen. And so none of our investment thesis, none of our modeling, none of our business case was built on imminent regulatory relief. And so while, you know, we hope for it and we wanna help shape how lawmakers think about it the same way the rest of the issue does. Nothing in our core premise for doing this deal was built on the expectation of regulatory relief this year, next year, five years from now. Right. So that's the one thing I would do. That said, we wanna be immediately a part of the conversation cause cannabis is so connected to our community. And so we're gonna jump into that conversation at the state level. We're gonna jump into that conversation at the national level. Now going to the second part of your question. You know, one of the things I think is the biggest, you know, misnomer when people think about, you know, Sean comes entering cannabis, is thinking about this as a celebrity cannabis deal, right?


When I think about this and when Puff and I have always talked about it. What we think about. A guy with an amazing track record of building culturally relevant brands. Is that relevant in cannabis? Yes. Check, right. You know, does he have resources and the platform to be able to raise the capital to do a deal like this. Check. Does he have the ability to attract the kind of talent you need? Check right. Now. You also then say, is this celebrity extremely valuable in getting the word out? Brilliant. Absolutely. But that's not the core premise of what we're trying to do, right? Like we will get as much value through all the things we can learn throughout our ecosystem and how our customers and all of our other businesses think about. As we'll get from Sean Holmes, the celebrity. Right? And so from that perspective, you know, we don't expect to have our business be a celebrity driven brand per se. It's gonna be built on the back of great brand building, great marketing, and very strategic and efficient operations.

[00:24:07] Dan Runcie: And I think that ties into something you had said in a recent interview about how insights from Revolt, for instance, can inform some of the decisions that you make with the cannabis business.

[00:24:18] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. I mean, look, when you think about an ecosystem like ours that spans from spirits, music, media, fashion, with every interaction with our audience, you create. So every time posts go up from their social media, you know, there's data that comes back. Every Ciroc transaction generates data when Revolt has shows on all the different platforms that has shows on cable, YouTube, In app, all those different platforms generate data. As you compile that data, you're able to kinda look at it with a different lens and pull insights from that. What we're then able to do is take the data that we get from the cannabis industry that everybody else in cannabis is getting. But when you start putting those things together in unique ways, that's how you start to generate interesting insights that everybody's just not gonna have access to 'em. So that's where we think, again, we have a real competitive advantage in how we think about what we do in the space. That'll impact everything from, you know, how our stores look and feel, and what that experience will be what products we lead with how we think about price points, how we change things from state to state. A lot of that will be driven by insights that not only come from the cannabis industry, but that are informed by the other businesses in our portfolio as well. 

[00:25:32] Dan Runcie: And this steps into, I think, a broader conversation of some of the categorization of someone like Puff and the work that he does in that the media can often put him alongside other people who have happened to be a recording artist on a track and compare their business ventures in the same way. And what you're essentially saying is, You can't compare us all the same way. Did they build a revolt?

[00:26:01] Tarik Brooks: It's so hard cause it's like, I don't wanna deny how impactful he is as an entertainer. Epic performances. When you think about, and not just performances in music, performances in movies, performances on Broadway. Like the guy is quintessential, entertaining. You know, by all means, like you can't argue that. But I think when you try to look at him narrowly as just that you are really missing the picture. Cause I think that underestimates or understates, how difficult, it’s to build a bad boy into a success, to build a success, build a revolt, to build us rock, to build a Deleon, to build three schools, like that, that's not just on the back of him. An amazing entertainer, right? Like that speaks to his business instincts, his ability to spot trends, his ability to kinda find and cultivate talent, like those are all things that are universal in business. Leave aside what he's been able to do as an entertainer, I would argue, had he never got on the mic or touched the stage, he would've been just that successful business person just on the back. His business, you know, acumen and abilities. And so that's where, when we're in these conversations and people think about, you know, in cannabis this came up recently, people say like, well, you know, celebrity brands haven't really worked. And I'm like, lemme take a second to help you understand why this is different from a celebrity brand opportunity. The other thing that's different that I think is important for people to understand is when we take control of these assets, we'll be fully vertically integrated in the States that we operate, which, we are gonna cultivate, we are a process. We are gonna manufacture, we're gonna distribute, we're gonna sell. So these are all pieces of the business value chain that we'll operate. Again, not so relevant from the celebrity space. This is all around how do you build and run high quality businesses? And that's where I think you have to look at our business portfolio to understand how impactful Puff is throughout his career. And you just don't see those things that the only lens you're looking at is through him as the celebrity. 

[00:28:10] Dan Runcie: I could see this topic also coming up in some ways, potentially from an investment perspective, where you all have companies that are trying to either get you to invest or you're evaluating them and at some point someone on the other side of the table may come to you and be like, Hey, well if you invest in us, can we get a shout out in a song? Can we get an Instagram post? Can we do this? Like these things that view Puff as the influencer as opposed to the business leader that has all of these things.

[00:28:39] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. What I found just in my experience and I've been working with Puff almost six years now. Most of it typically comes with how people were introduced to them and the depth or lack thereof of their understanding of what he's been able to do throughout his career. There's a lot of stuff, you know, people just don't necessarily, you know, attribute to him in the way they should. So usually that journey is one where it's about informing people to say things like, let's make sure you have all the perspective and then think about kinda how this can make sense. Cause again, there's no denying his impact and influence as a celebrity. He's huge. Like, he's a big name, he's an iconic person in culture. But I think to only think about him that way now, I think when people start to understand, you know, what working with Combs Enterprises means more broadly, you start to understand the power of the platform that we really have. And that's where I think it gets really exciting for the people. 

[00:29:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I agree. That makes sense. From an investment perspective specifically though, do you feel like, is that something that often needs to be addressed with startups or with founders or others that may be whether deep down they may be looking for something and I'm more so asking that in a way because I've seen it happen to others and given this conversation, I can see that especially being somewhat frustrating where it's like, Hey, I hope you're not just interested in this to think you're gonna get a shout out.

[00:30:03] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. I mean, so look, I'll tell you when we are evaluating investment opportunities and people are looking at ideals, I don't think that is a thing that people are using as their primary driver. Do I think there are people who will be like nice to have, do they hope to get to meet them? Do they hope to get all those? Sure. Right. Like, again, all 'em, all those kinds of things. But I think when we get, you know, evaluating real deals. I think one thing that surprises people is the rigor with which we do our due diligence and our analysis, right? And so that's the first thing you see to say like, well this is not just, you know, high level celebrity thing. This is being looked at with real deep due diligence and real deep analysis. And I think from there it starts to shake away that kinda filter of, oh, oh, I'm gonna try to just get a celebrity deal done. Cause it's just not the way we do business. And I think people get that. 

[00:31:02] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. Leslie. Yeah. Especially if there's a due diligence process that they're seeing on their side. And maybe we could talk a little bit more about that, like from a high level, for a lot of the investments you do, maybe less like the cannabis deals, but more on the venture side, do you have a particular sweet spot in terms of, you know, this is normally the dollar amount range, or this is normally what we put in, or this is normally what we are looking for?

[00:31:26] Tarik Brooks: So, we have, you know, flexibility, right? We're not a fund that has to, you know, stick to a certain sector or a certain stage of growth the way, you know, funds are typically mandated to do so. We do have flexibility, but that said, going back to the earlier comment I was making, we tend to look at businesses where we see some application. At places within our current portfolio. Right? So like, I don't know that you'll ever see us do like, you know, some like heavy machinery deals or you know, enterprise software, things like that. Cause that's not natural, when you look at interface with the businesses we operate in, it becomes a lot more interesting for us. And so while we apply, you know, the very standard kinda ways of assessing, you know, the quality of the leadership team, the uniqueness of the opportunity, how opportunity is the total addressable market opportunity. Ultimately, we look at all those things just like every other, you know, person who investigates an opportunity. I think where it gets unique is for us, once we've gone through all that, we then sit back and say, okay, you know, how many of our businesses could actually utilize this offering? You know, how many different places do we think we can use this throughout our portfolio? And then it starts to become even more interesting. So, that's kinda how we get there. Now, to be clear, like we don't have a hard mandate or a set of funds. We have to put the work in the way the fund does, and so we tend to be very, very opportunistic. We pick what we do very carefully to be investing. So as we see economic conditions change as we see market conditions. We're able to just say like, all right, let's take a step back. Let's wait and see how things play out. And I think that helped. I mean, it helped us avoid, you know, some of the frustrations some folks are seeing in the web and cryptocurrency world. Cause we weren't forced to go aggressively and do something too fast. We saw the market was evolving and so we were able to take a step back, and continue to evaluate it. So from that perspective, there's a lot of flex. 

[00:33:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense, especially given that, yeah, there's no fun mandates though. It's not like you're burned because there's a winter or something like that.

[00:33:44] Tarik Brooks: Absolutely, and the reality is we're always investing in our core portfolio as well, right? So we think about whether we wanna put millions into, you know, a startup passively. Part of the kinda analysis is to know where we could deploy in our current portfolio and does that make more sense? Right? And so there's that kinda flow of how we think about deals as well.

[00:34:07] Dan Runcie:  Yeah, that makes sense. A couple months ago, there were headlines that Puff had apparently done an investment in Twitter around the time that Elon Musk had. Was that actually a thing, or did that come through or?

[00:34:21] Tarik Brooks: Look, so like Puff and Elon like have a relationship.You know, Twitter is a very interesting situation in that when you look at, you know, the side like Twitter's impact in society is certainly bigger than how it shows up from. You know, profit and loss and from a market cap perspective, and when you look at, you know, where Twitter is trading today is trading at a fraction of where like a Facebook or even like a Snapchat is I think, at this point. And so the question becomes, you know, from an investment perspective, like do you think, you know, with some changes you could create meaningful value in Twitter, that platform. And so I think while you know, the kind of, the kind of statements in the press were overstated. There was a small investment in Twitter, but it's nothing. People get pieces of information and run, so we just, you know, we gotta sit back.

[00:35:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think the way you framed it is correct. Right? I think it's definitely one of the 40 billion companies that creates more headlines than most other 44 billion companies we could probably even think of.

[00:35:29] Tarik Brooks: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, like with some decisions to be a much more viable company than today and the verdict's still out, like those changes happen in real time and cause of how, you know, big the platform is in society. You know, you're seeing those things play out in the press and, you know, I'm sure Elon's campus is trying to work as methodically as they can through those changes. As they figure out what is the right, you know, kind end state for, for that platform. 

[00:36:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. The other side of the investment piece, of course, I think we talked a lot about Combs Enterprises point Capital, but on the other side of it too, thinking specifically about everything happening in music catalogs over the past couple of years, everyone wants these valuable catalogs with this timeless music. Combs has one of the most valuable hip hop, r&b black music catalogs of the past 30 years with Bad Boy Records. There hasn't been any public news about any sales, but I am sure that people must have been calling nonstop trying to at least see what they could get in there. What were those conversations like? I'm sure at some point it must have come up of Rick, whether it's running the bum numbers or even thinking through like, what would this look like? 

[00:36:45] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. Well look, I think as you know, like part of the interest in these catalogs is driven by the fact that, you know, the returns they generate aren't really correlated to the market, right? Like they’re like if you have, you know, a high quality performing catalog, it's gonna generate returns and generate cash flow irrespective of the ups and downs of the markets. And so that's attractive to investors. That said, for those same reasons, it's attractive to us, right? Like it is a great quality, high performing catalog. And for us, part of how, you know, we think about things, we think about like Puff's long-term vision, right? Like we're getting back into how he's getting back into music now with Love Records. You know, he's gonna build that platform in the way that makes sense as you think about the way culture and the music industry continues to evolve. And for us, we're in no rush to get rid of a portfolio that could be a part of that. Like who knows how you think about those assets in the future. And so for us, we're spending a lot of time thinking about what the future of music is gonna look like. And you know how Puff is gonna participate in that, what that looks like. And so for us, you know, again, you don't have, you know, some of the time constraints that you get from being they're public company or you know, money at a certain time. So we had the benefit of being able to go slow and kinda take our time and basically run experiments at our own pace to figure out what we wanna do. And so from that perspective, people have, you know, continually come through with offers and with opportunities and things. And we've purposely taken our time as we've about what, you know, Puff's experience of music is gonna be over the next, you know, next years as he climbs when he talks about it's his second, right? Like he's at the point of his career where he's accomplished and he's thinking about what that second looks like. Music has always been a very important part of his life, and so music is gonna be a part of that. Second, we're shaping what that looks like. And so from our perspective, there was no reason to move. 

[00:38:46] Dan Runcie:  That makes a lot of sense and I think for you, there's two things that are different with you all compared to some of the others. Two of them you touched on, but one of them is that you already have the infrastructure in place on how to do things that can help maximize the asset of the Bad Boy Records catalog. It isn't like one of these situations like where the Whitney Houston catalog, like it was dormant before Primary Wave came in and obviously they've like, you know, forseed it since they acquired it three years ago. And it isn't like one of these other legacy artists that, you know, the estate may be in shambles and things just aren't lined up. And yeah, for them it probably makes sense to just get a lump sum of money and be able to distribute that instead of hoping that your relatives who may not be trained in managing this type of asset can't continue doing it forward. Like you all have that. And I think that's part of it.

[00:39:37] Tarik Brooks: Yeah. And I think there's a couple ways to think about it too, right? Like, cause these artists work so hard to create these assets. You know, why sell 'em? Why get rid of them? But I think there's a couple ways you can think about. You can say one, alright, we may be at peak pricing. And so it's like, you know what, lemme sell while things are hot. You know, take the cash, be able to take the money off the table and invest other ways. You also, particularly with younger artists to say, all right, I'll sell this catalog, but if I'm still creating, I can continue to create and you know, build new works that will create value as well. And so I think there's different logic for different artists in terms of, you know, why they think about selling and why they sell when they do that, you know, in some respect make, particularly if you're looking at it from a purely financial perspective. But again, we were unique in the way that we have an ecosystem that helps continue to keep catalog relevant. We're back in music now, and so again, that also helps to create the halo effect across all of our ecosystems. And so for us, there just really isn't a rush to move too quickly, like where we can think about what is the kinda value maximizing way to utilize the catalog and whatever else we're doing to create the best outcomes. 

[00:40:54] Dan Runcie: Right. I think that's a good way to put it too, like you said, numbers are there and if you wanna sell, there are sound financial reasons that someone may choose to do so for you all, and given Puff's current goals in music, it just may not make the most sense, but with that though, shifting gears a bit, one business we haven't talked a lot about is Sean John and I know this is a business that the team had sold a couple years back. The company that bought it. Things didn't quite work out there. You all then bought it back recently. So where are things right now with Sean John?

[00:41:32] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, Sean John is super exciting, right? So you first start with an iconic, you know, street brand, right? You know, this is again another example. Being able to see where fashion was going, seeing how, you know, folks in our community were wearing other brands to get particular silhouettes and have it, you know, look a certain way and feel a certain way, and then be able to build a brand. That became a real like a foundational piece of, you know, hip hop culture. And through that process, Puff was the first African American man to win the CFDA award, which is the biggest award you can win in fashion, right? So truly iconic sold the brand. The buyers at the time weren't able to figure out how to maximize it, so they created the opportunity for us to buy back. And so what we're excited to do now, and we're in this process with Puff of really reimagining what can and should be for this generation, right? Like as much as you know, we all love the iconic valore sweatsuits and all rest it like, maybe that's a part of the future. Maybe it's a different brand position, different way, but like spending time. Actually really ideate on that and get to the right concept to bring it back again. We have the benefit cause, you know, we operate this portfolio, we don't have the pressure to rush. Like we don't have to, you know, do something right away to be able to, you know, capture that value overnight. You know, we have the luxury of being able to take our time and what I found with Puff is he likes to be able to, one, work with the quality people he possibly can and really run ideas through the ringer in terms of, you know, having people question his logic, test the thinking. Really, really pressure test to see if it's the right way before we do something. So what I can say is, right now in the lab, like, you know, there's creative folks that are thinking through, you know, what Sean John could be and should be and isn't engaged in that process. And so it's exciting I think when we do hit on the market, we're gonna come back in a way that one pays homage to the legacy of John, but then isn't just caught in what to be, is really thinking about what the brand could mean and should mean to, you know, new generations.

[00:43:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. And I feel like when it happened too, it definitely generated some excitement. So I feel like there's some good momentum. 

[00:43:47] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I think a lot of the folks who are dominating the fashion world now, were inspired, you know, by, you know, fans. So the fact that it's a brand is still, you know, relevant to people in different ways, gives us a great building. Like, I would rather be trying to kinda help people connect to this brand with so much history and legacy than trying to build a brand from scratch. You know? I think it provides a good foundation. Like's aspiration is to build iconic, long-lasting brands. So when you think about iconic brands that have been around for 55, you know, longer periods of time, that's what the goal is. And so, and those brands have gone through research, you know, any iconic brands gone off, of kinda laws and growth. And so for us, this is just really, you know, the second chapter of something that's gonna, you know, be a part of our community and our culture for years ago. 

[00:44:45] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. And for you specifically, if we zoom out a bit, looking at the past six years since you've been there, we definitely talked a lot about wins, a lot of the successes. But are there any setbacks or are there any missed opportunities that you look back on, especially the past six years since you've been there being like, oh, I wonder if we did this differently with this brand. I wonder if we did that differently? 

[00:45:07] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I think for us, one of the things I appreciate about Puff and it's a value that we both share, which you know, you look at everything as like a learning opportunity to say like maybe the outcome didn't go your way, but there was plenty of stuff you could learn from if you embrace the opportunity the right way. So like I look at the fact that it was back in was announced as an opportunity. We saw the value of the team and the value of the assets all around. You thought it was a great opportunity, pursued it. You know, the group that we were part of didn't win, but through that process, learned a ton about that space. You know, I met great people, you know, business partners and relationships that we still engaged with in different things today all came from that opportunity. So like, you know, while, look, I would've loved to be able to win that deal or bring that home, you know, I think there's a lot that comes from it. It sets us up for the things we do, you know, when I think about, David, we talked about the Revolt Summit earlier, right? Like, you know, as we were building the Revolt Summit, you know, we bring it back after, I think a year off. And then in 2020 the pandemic hit. So we gotta basically shut it down and go virtual. But like coming outta those were things we learned about how we're gonna in the future. So this year, you know, the biggest Revolt Summit ever, how's Metaverse versus online? Like all those things coming around. Again, learnings that you utilize going forward. And so, you know, whether it's you thinking through every single flavor in the portfolio or every single bab in the artist roster, even the ones that don't work out the way, you know, you want them to work out their stuff. You can learn from that help, impact and help you to be better as you move forward. That's the way we think. You know, and I talk all the time about just, you know, transparently looking at the things that go right and go wrong and making sure we're learning.

[00:47:05] Dan Runcie: Can we actually talk a little bit about the Carolina Panthers one specifically? Because I know you all said that you didn't win the bid, but was it an aspect of being outbid or the owners or someone just choosing someone different? Like how did that all go down? Cause I remember the headlines about it. I remember that there were a few other prominent black public figures that were in that ownership group too.

[00:47:27] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I mean, look, what I would say is, you know, the person that you know ended up winning the bid, I believe, if I remember correctly, had, you know, the highest bid relationship. I think from that perspective, he kinda knew the league, well, and, and was prepared in a number of different ways to be able to take it down. And I would just say the group that we were part of kinda fell short in that way. But what's interesting is, you know, the number, and I just can't remember real time, the exact number he ended up paying for. When you look at the number that people think that the Washington Commanders are gonna command, and the number that the Denver Barcos commanded. You know, while that number he paid was high at the time, you know, it's not even half what somebody might pay for the Washington Commanders. And so perspective, you're willing to pay for something. You gotta live with the fact that there's just maybe willing to pay more for it than you. Right. And so, you know, we ended up being a part of a really sharp group that, you know, had thought really hard about, you know, what was in this case. You know, we rounded. So, you know, again, it's one of those things you learn from, right? Like, you know, sports, entertainment, and business is very unique. You know, assets, you know, come available at different points in time. It's all about thinking about, you know, what do you think the asset is worth? What do you think you can do with it, you know, to translate to what you think it should be worth. And somewhere in that analysis you get to what you think you should pay for, right? And that's where you kinda make your move. And in that case, you know that there were just folks willing to pay for. 

[00:49:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, I think that's a good point too. Cause I feel like I might be misquoting, but I feel like the Panther's bid was somewhere, I think it was under 3 billion at least.

[00:49:20] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I believe you're right. I wanna be careful. I just don't remember exactly. But yeah, I remember it being less than 3 billion and I think the number they're saying for Washington Commanders now, like 7 billion and so I imagine, you know, like when you think about where the value of that Panthers is going, probably going. They probably did really well. So I mean, again, and we believed it was gonna do well and continue to do well. I mean, when you look at the size of the deal, I guess Google or YouTube just did it with the NFL. The NFL is a platform, right? When you look at, at least for the last couple years, I haven't seen 2022. When you look at the list of the top 50 watched things on television every year, 40 plus of them are football games. Right? Right. It's just that powerful of an entertainment platform, so therefore commands the prices of command. 

[00:50:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Well, hopefully. Whether it's this group or some combination of others that we know we're interested in. Hopefully we see something happen soon in the sports ownership space. But this was great. I know we covered a bunch of topics in this one, and before we let you go though, is there anything that you didn't cover that the audience should stay looking out for or that we should be thinking about moving forward?

[00:50:34] Tarik Brooks: Yeah, I think 23 is a year that the audience should look out for a lot from, from the Combs organization. You know, music out of Love Records, including album and power, global e-commerce platform. Kinda reimagining how, you know, black people circulate dollars in our community. You know, the cannabis venture closing and beginning to build brands and establish meaningful footprints in the markets that it's in. There's just a lot of new things in 23, so there will be a lot coming outta our camp that we're super excited about, and so it's gonna be big. 

[00:51:08] Dan Runcie: We'll keep our lookout for that, man. All right. Appreciate you spending the time, man.

[00:51:12] Tarik Brooks: Thanks so much, man.Take care.

[00:51:14] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 3109 no NYU Keynote: Music, Streaming, and Second-Order Effects https://www.trapital.com/podcast I had the pleasure of being the keynote speaker at New York University’s Annual Alumni Event for its music business department. Big thanks to Larry Miller, a professor and director of the program, for inviting me.  It was a free-flowing conversation focused on how technology is reshaping the music industry from top-to-bottom. We’re well into the streaming era now, but some of the second-order effects are barely starting to ripple — particularly the oversaturation of content. It’s easier and cheaper than ever to release music, which explains how tens of thousands of new songs are uploaded to Spotify on a daily basis. On one hand, this has ushered in a golden era of independent artists making a career without the backing of a label. On the other hand, value is increasingly accruing to the superstar artists. Most of these superstars were “grandfathered” into this new era as they were already household names before streaming took off. Reaching that same superstar status is harder and harder for new artists due to the industry’s oversaturation.  Larry and I dove deeper into the issue during our conversation. Students also hit me with Q&A about burning topics such as ChatGPT, botted streaming numbers, and much more. Here’s what you can expect to hear on this episode:  [2:02] Introduction from Larry Miller  [5:09] Superstar artists like Taylor Swift and Drake shining brighter than ever [10:22] Too many hits, not enough superstars [17:23] How Curren$y “niched down” to break through [24:18] Tradeoffs of going independent or the major label route [26:47] Industry takeaways from Spotify and YouTube’s billions playlists [30:32] YouTube’s competitive advantage over Spotify [34:09] Evolving Trapital’s own business model [39:43] Music’s bot problem in streaming and ticketing [42:07] Is the music superstar dead? [44:19] Picking a platform(s) as a new artist [46:24] How oversaturated music landscape impacts listeners [49:03] Is New York drill music the next wave? [50:48] Pros and cons of AI music Trapital’s first-ever Cultural Report for 2022: https://trapital.co/culture-report/ Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co     Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Dan Runcie: Both Spotify and YouTube generated a tremendous amount of revenue for the music industry. I believe Spotify had last shared that they generated 7 billion for the industry. YouTube generates six or seven, I think it's 6 billion. The last thing that I had seen them put in. So that is a sign. Okay, great. You know, you tie that back into the numbers you shared before. You can do a little bit of backwards math to see how much of that is responsible for the overall industry with where it is now. So you see that, and then you also know that like anything else, the most popular songs drive most of that revenue. So you can kind of get a good idea to be like, okay, what are the songs that are driving? The music industry right now.  [00:00:46] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Dan Ruey. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  [00:01:04] (Intro) Dan Runcie: This episode is a fun one. We're sharing the audio from a talk that I recently gave at NYU. I was the keynote speaker at an event there for several hundred alumni and students. For the music business program, it starts off with a 10 minute talk by me where I'm giving an overview on the lay of the land with where things lay right now with streaming and music and social media, and how artists are doing their best to navigate all of the noise that's happening right now. And then it pivots into a conversation. Which is a fireside chat with me and Larry Miller, who's the head of the music program at N Y U, and we talk even more about what certain artists are doing, right? We talked about Currensy, who I recently had on the podcast a couple months ago. We also talk a little bit about me and Trapital and building this and where I see things going in the future. Really fun conversation. I really enjoyed doing this event and I hope you enjoyed this. Here it goes.  [00:02:02] Larry Miller: Dan Runcie is the founder of Trapital. Trapital has become an amazing media platform and the quality and amount of content, really insightful content that Dan cranks out as remarkable. It's just remarkable. What it's about is the people who are taking hip hop and culture to the next level. That includes the artists who are becoming moguls, leaders who are reaching new heights and fans inspired by hip hop's growing influence. Dan, when he'd school, and I suppose even, you know, business school. This media company Trapital, because he wanted to see a change. The hip hop execs that he looked up to were becoming really successful business leaders, but he felt that they rarely got the coverage that they deserved. And he wanted to do something about it. So he launched Trapital in March of 2018, and the business has grown ever since. Tens of thousands of influential people read Trapital's weekly memos and listen to the Trapital Podcast every week to stay ahead of the latest trends. Trapital's been featured pretty much everywhere. Places like The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, and the BBC and N P R,  C N B C and lots of other places are turning to Dan for insights on the business of hip hop. Dan's recent coverage has focused on lots of things. He's focused on the surprising differences between Spotify's and YouTube's. Billion stream playlists. Just looking at the ones that have done a billion on each platform. There are actually some pretty interesting differences between those two platforms. He's done significant work on how a venture capital fund from a 16 Z, Andreas and Horowitz invest money that is raised exclusively from black leaders in entertainment, sports, and business. He's done a report on the so-called decline in the influence of hip hop culture. He's done work on the future of ticketing. He's done a lot on DIY careers in hip hop, and done some really insightful reporting around Joe Kelli's amazing new book, Rap Capital, the Rise and Reign of Atlanta's hip hop culture, which if you haven't read it, get it. Dan got his MBA from a school in the Midwest, I think it's called Michigan, and he lives in San Francisco with his wife, and small child, daughter. Please give a warm NYU music biz welcome to Dan Runcie. [00:05:09] Dan Runcie: Larry, thank you to the entire faculty, alumni for having me. It's an honor to be here. And I guess to start things off, because she's been brought up a few times, Taylor Swift has been a topic I know a lot of you thought about. So just outta curiosity, how many of you tried to buy Taylor Swift tickets this week? Okay, a few hands. Keep those hands up if you actually got Taylor Swift tickets this week. Okay? All right. Well, people will have to follow up with you all after to figure out exactly how you did that, but I think that's an interesting place to start with so much of what's happening right now in the music industry, because Ticketmaster, as most of you know, the whole entire app and the site crash because of the high demand. Ticketmaster put out this blog post and they said that they had five times the amount of hits compared to the Super Bowl, compared to other high days worth of events for this concert alone for Taylor Swift, and she's someone that's been on tour before. She's someone that has done plenty of things in music, but to see this kind of demand is pretty surprising. But she also broke a bunch of records with the album that she just put out a couple weeks ago, Midnights, and it's made me think about something we've talked a lot about recently, in Trapital. Something we've done a lot of research on. Right now there is so much music coming. I see, I think a few of you probably saw that music business Worldwide article, Spotify releases it. A hundred thousand songs a day get uploaded to that service. Most of those songs don't get listened to, to be clear, but a hundred thousand songs a day is still something else. And then as Larry had mentioned as well, Live Nation and a lot of these other event promoters and ticketing companies are having their biggest quarters and biggest years. And artists like Taylor are probably going to be having record years. And on the flip side, you also look at someone like Drake. Him and 21 Savage recently just put out their album, Her Loss. I think Drake gave one week's notice on this album, fourth highest streaming week that an album has ever had, which is pretty impressive. I know that Drake's a superstar, but still, even his past albums before this had plenty of buildup before where if you think about what he did with Scorpion or even the long buildup for an album like Certified Lover Boy. But the fact that Drake can announce on short notice is pretty surprising because if you think about where things are in music, you have more artists than ever that wanna tour. You have more artists than ever that are releasing music, but it's the superstar artists that are still the ones that people are gravitating more towards and they're the ones that are still getting most of the profits. But on the other side of the spectrum, things are getting a little bit tougher because Larry mentioned it a little bit earlier, but a lot of artists are struggling to make toward profitable, especially post pandemic the way that things are right now. Inflation costs are rising. It's costing so much more from freight costs to be able to travel with an entire production set from city to city, hotel airfare. So certain artists are selling out their tours or selling out their concert tickets, but they still aren't able to generate profit unless they increase the ticket prices. But even if you do that to a certain extent, the customers are going to push back. I'm sure a lot of people have seen all the complaints that people have had about how high the prices are, all these hidden fees. So there's a little bit of a squeeze there. And I think what we're seeing now is something that we've seen happen in the media, something that we've seen happen in music, but the fact that the barriers to entry have made music more easy to access, and now that we're in a post pandemic world, more people wanna be outside than ever. It's a lot of the artists at the top that are doing extremely well. But on the other side of the spectrum, while you do have some folks struggling, there are artists who are doing extremely well on the independent side of things. These are artists oftentimes that are owning their masters. These are artists that own their publishing rights as well. And because they've been able to keep a low cost and they've been able to essentially build from the ground up and continue to do it almost the way that a CEO in the music industry will be building up their business. They've been able to build pretty successful businesses too, in many ways. Leveraging the power of the internet because whether it's through SoundCloud or using YouTube or any of these other platforms, they can use their content or they can use their content to be able to drive awareness to their music. And then with that, they can then build up their audience and ultimately, Do that more successfully than they might have otherwise if they were to join one of the major record labels. So it's in this interesting piece because a lot of those artists feel like they have to make a decision, and Larry and I are gonna talk a little bit about one of them in a bit, but it's making artists, and I think many people in the music industry kind of pause because of the amount of content that's coming out, because of the amount of music that's coming out, it's a little bit harder to be able to pierce through. How many of you remember about a month ago, there was a billboard article that came out that said too many hits, not enough superstars, there was named something around that. Does that ring a bell? Okay. I've seen a few folks nod their heads there, and there were a few quotes in that article that stuck out to me because you had a lot of folks that are A & R or other executives in the industry that would say, we're doing all the things that they're telling us to do. We’re doing all the TikTok campaigns, we're doing the same press runs, we are creating the content, we're putting it out there. But even if we do all those things, We still can't guarantee that an artist that we think is going to be successful can get there, and that's because at the end of the day, the record labels and the artists themselves don't have control over the TikTok algorithms. They don't have control over the Instagram feeds to be able to tell what specifically is going to rise to the top and how you can break through another piece from that same article that stuck out to me. How many are you familiar with Steve? Okay. Pretty familiar. And it stuck out because there was a recent concert that he did and he was singing his song at the concert. The audience, the voices, got quiet once it got past that TikTok moment of the song. And if you're an artist, you're putting everything into your album. Of course you know that your fans are probably gonna sing harder to the hit songs under the singles. But because through the TikTok piece. I mean, it's just a reminder of how things are coming and where things are going. Even the concept of a one hit wonder I think has changed quite a bit because back when a lot of us probably were growing up, even if an artist was a one hit wonder, you still probably knew something about that artist. I mean, we can go back years ago, but even someone like Lou Bega who had that song, Mambo Number Five, or even someone like Trinidad James who had all gold everything, you still remember the videos, if you saw them walking down the street, you could probably recognize them. Or I've still been to, you know, a few events where I've seen some of these folks at. But now a one hit wonder could have just a song that you may hear a bit often, but you're recognizing it from some meme that someone else did on their TikTok video or someone else did. So you're engaging a bit more with the viral hit itself than the actual person that's making the music. So it's making things a lot tougher for a lot of artists who I think are the majority of them, wanna be successful, wanna be known and wanna get a few looks. But that middle ground of just wanting to be able to feel like you have that moderate place, you're kind of in the middle of the industry. It's getting a little bit harder to continue to have that being viable because now as I mentioned, you're starting to see a bit of this path where you have the superstars who are just getting more and more recognition as there's more and more options than ever. Or the independent artists who, even though the economics work in their favor, even though they may be able to do even better financially than some artists who may get more exposure than them, they may not be getting looked at the same, as some of their peers are. So it's a very interesting place for the industry. I think with that, it presents a ton of opportunity, but I also think that for certain artists, especially hip hop artists, there's a little bit of a mindset shift in terms of how am I releasing music? What is it that I wanna release? Because I think for a while it seemed like there was a blueprint that generally most people do. You put your music out, maybe you have a following on social media, you share that. You share a little bit of your personality. Hopefully a good manager can come to you if you find one or vice versa. If you do well, you're able to break through. Then maybe a major record label can find you. There was a bit of a general path, but now you're starting to see more and more of that split, and it's making artists in a lot of ways, think a bit sooner about what that decision is when you're still figuring out where it is and where you honestly wanna be. Do you wanna try to become the next Taylor Swift or the next Drake, or do you wanna try to do this a bit more yourself and have a bit more control over what you do? Because the thing is, even things like that, like becoming the next Drake or becoming the next Taylor Swift, have plenty of nuance part of other things that people have been talking about is how much harder it is for a newer artist to be able to hit the same levels. The fact that, you know, we're still referencing whether it's your Adele's or Beyonce's or Taylor Swifts, or Drake's, a lot of these artists have been famous years before TikTok was ever a thing. They still had a lot of that monocultural benefit of when they blew up, they were the thing, and they were able to benefit from that and have a lot of exposure. So now any of the platforms they had, it's all gravy. Now it's all added. They can use that to their advantage, but you are now trying to rise up and do that same thing, it's harder. Even someone like Olivia Rodrigo. Any fans of Olivia Rodrigo? So she is someone who I think Driver's License in a lot of ways for some people felt like the song blew up overnight and it did extremely successful, as did her album. But she was a Disney kid. She had been famous for years before leading up to that. So even that isn't quite at that same level. So it's a very interesting time in the industry. It's been a really great time to working the work we're doing at Trapital specifically to understand what this means. We're talking to a lot of different artists. We're talking to a lot of their managers, and really just making sure that we can share the best stories that we can about what's working, what's not, and highlighting those things. Cuz I think at the end of the day, you wanna find a way for artists to be successful. You wanna find a way for the people that are trying to build companies in the space to be successful, but it's very important to with the way things are trending right now, and a lot of people are saying, oh, it's oversaturated. Oh, we hope that we can eventually get back to a place that is less saturated. I don't think that's happening. The cat's out of the box at this point. If anything, there's gonna be more and more exposure more and more platforms. You look at how quickly TikTok grew to be a platform that has 1 billion monthly active users at this rate. There could be another platform that hasn't even grown yet that by 2026 could be that big. That's just how big things are from a connectivity perspective. So you never know what things could look like, but I think for where things are heading in the music industry there, it's a really fascinating time and even there's a lot of the established superstars that have done extremely well. There's still a ton of potential opportunity. I'll pause there cuz I know that Larry and I can talk a little bit more about that. But it is such a unique time and I think it's probably a good time for us to continue having the conversation because one of the people I do wanna talk to you about is Currency, who is an artist there. So we can do that in a moment, but yeah. [00:17:23] Larry Miller: A New Orleans hip hop artist who's got a lot going, you guys know Currensy. Woo woo. So what's the deal and what made this especially noteworthy for you? [00:17:36] Dan Runcie: So Currensy is someone who I had interviewed about a month ago and it was a pleasure to have him on as a guest on a podcast. I talked to him and his long-time business manager and partner Musa, and Currensy is someone who has been through each aspect of the music industry and I think in capsules a lot of what we've been talking about here. He first got exposure about 20 years ago. He was signed to Masterpiece No Limit label, and of course there's the whole New Orleans connection there. He ended up leaving New No Limit, and then he eventually signed on with Cash, Money and Young Money specifically under Lil Wayne. The thing is though, he actually ended up leaving cash money right around the 2007-2008 timeframe, which was a bit unique because that was the time that Drake and Nicki Minaj ended up joining them as well. And that label went on a pretty high trajectory after that. So some of the young money fans may often be like, oh, what could have happened? Right. But I actually think it was probably the best thing for Currensy because he realized that he was speaking to a slightly different audience, and specifically he knew that there were certain things that he was gonna be able to share with them that would resonate. That probably may not make sense trying to be on the next Lil Wayne mixtape or trying to be on the next Young Money collection or whatever it is. So he's been able to continue his career since, but he has a bit more of an interesting model where you see artists like him, NBA Young Boys, another one, but these artists are releasing albums every other month or releasing mixtapes every other month on streaming. And it's one of these things whenever people talk about that, it often becomes a bit of this question, where is this quality that's being put out? Or is this just quantity? And I think it's a very real thing. I mean, as someone that grew up enjoying a lot of music, even the artists that are successful now, from a personal fan perspective, you know? Yeah. It means something that, yes, you know, Beyonce drops Renaissance. We haven't heard her do a solo album since 2016, and she did one this summer. Okay. I'm listening. Same thing with Adele when she had hers, but I think that for Currensy, I'm not in, I may not be in that fan base demographic specifically, but the people that are following him on a regular basis love him. So he is focused on his true fans, he's found them. And by being able to do that, ultimately these people are gonna wanna hear from you on a more regular basis. Even if it isn't your best stuff, it's what they're gonna want to hear and it speaks to the flexibility that is offered now with streaming because before, just with how much it cost to release an album, yeah, it made perfect sense why you would wait and wanna save your best stuff for it. But if an artist wants to have the model where they wanna release frequency frequently and drop as often as they can, they can do that. And the platforms give them the flexibility. And someone like Currensy, the way he put it to me was, you know, there's certain artists that are gonna get 80 million streams a day. They're more popular than I am, but they don't drop as often as I do. And I'm gonna get my 80 million streams as well, even if I'm putting out much more music than they are. And for a lot of artists, they're still recording the same amount of music. They're just shit picking the best ones to pick for the album versus someone like Currensy's like, no, let me share most of it and share it with the fans. So it's very interesting to hear that. And then specifically since then, he's been able to take a lot of that money. He is solely focused, for the most part on tours. Really doesn't do too many festivals because he doesn't feel like that is where his true fans are. So leaning even more so into the true fan piece, been able to build up and create a few different nightclubs and places like that in New Orleans. He has an apparel company, Jet Life, so it's been a really interesting model for someone to leverage the tools that are available. And even though he may not speak to me or you specifically, he has his people. That to me shows the power of artists being able to focus on their niche and being able to build from there. [00:21:38] Larry Miller: How broad do you think this, you know, phenomenon is? I mean, you made a point a couple of minutes ago that it's only gonna get bigger. There's only going to be more of this. And I think that the inference for the incumbents for, you know, the majors in particular is that they need to, you know, continue to, you know, innovate and unbundle the thing that they do and be really good and, and competitive at it. You know, the leverage seems to be moving overwhelmingly toward the side of the individual music creator. You seeing more of that? [00:22:16] Dan Runcie: I think there's nuance there, and it's something I've thought a lot about because on one hand you do see the overall revenue share numbers, where the share of at least recorded music revenue from independent artists is continuing to grow, and I believe now it's over 30% and has continued to grow year over year, the past couple of years. On the other side of it though, if you're looking at the top artists on the Spotify charts or the top artists on any of these other charts, it's still mostly signed artists that are there. Those signed artists may not necessarily, let's see, be as many new names. Like it's gonna be harder for someone to dominate the entire list the way that Taylor or Drake do when they release an album. But most of the ones that are still there are still the signed folks. So I do feel like a lot of at least for the folks on the record label specifically and the people that are working there or the people that are working at publishing companies, they still are working with the majority of the most popular artists. I know there was a quote recently from Steven Cooper from Warner Music Group and he said, our record label is less dependent on superstars than it has been in the past. And I think there's a lot of truth to that just because you can see who's being signed to wear, you can see how many stars they've been able to develop ever since. And even though there may be less big names that they may have had. There's still a higher likelihood that a big name is gonna come from them than it would be from, you know, an independent group, from an independent artist. I would say, especially at the top level. Mm-hmm. I would say. Yeah. [00:23:51] Larry Miller: Right. And so for an individual artist, they may need to go through a, you know, calculation that evolves over a period of time about whether they have the ambition. and the drive to become Drake or Taylor Swift, or if they can make, you know, just as much or maybe more on a probability adjusted basis doing it for themselves.  [00:24:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I do think that. If you're an artist and you wanna shoot for the stars, I think that even though there's a ton more platforms and there's many other tools out there that are making it easier for you to own your masters and own the rights to everything that you have, even the artists that have ended their deals, they're much more likely to resign with the major record labels or resign with the publishing companies, but having you know better terms than they did before. You've seen that with the weekend, and you've seen that with a few of the artists, specifically, a lot of the ones signed to Republic Records, they've, you know, de-risk themselves essentially as assets so they're able to get better terms. And they may have gotten on that first deal many years ago, but I do think that that means a few things, right? That means that those artists themselves that are already established, they're more likely to wanna stay there. But I do think for the newer artists, there's still plenty of opportunity because there are still a number of companies that wanna be able to partner with them and help them build. Right. You were just referencing Downtown and one of their key tenants of their mission is, let's help you become a superstar where you can continue to own the assets that you have. And there's a tremendous team there that has a tremendous amount of backing and tools to be able to make that happen. So I think things like that are really, really interesting. I think we'll have to continue to see how it plays out to see if we can see someone that can continue to go that route without ever having to given it up. Cuz I think right now you've seen a lot of folks were traded in at least, you know, some ownership for their rights early on. But then once they got enough leverage, they were able to get them back, which I think is powerful and in their own right. But have we seen it the other way where they started off owning everything and they've continued to own throughout their career? I think naturally there's any type of trade off you have to do when you have a business partnership. So part of that comes with the territory. But with so much flexibility and so many more options, it's gonna be interesting to watch. And that's one thing I'm interested in. [00:26:23] Larry Miller: You just mentioned the charts a minute ago, and I know that you just did a pretty deep dive on a comparison, of the billion stream or billion view charts that YouTube and Spotify separately came out with, that revealed some sort of interesting, you know, nuanced insights about what is similar but different about those platforms. What did you find?  [00:26:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I guess first for a little bit of context there, one of the drivers for this analysis was because, both Spotify and YouTube generated a tremendous amount of revenue for the music industry. I believe Spotify had last shared that they generated 7 billion for the industry. YouTube generates six or seven, I think it's 6 billion. The last thing that I had seen them put in, so, that is a sign. Okay, great. You know, you tie that back into the numbers you shared before. You can do a little bit of backwards math to see how much of that is responsible for the overall industry with where it is now. So you see that, and then you also know that like anything else, the most popular songs drive most of that revenue. So you can kind of get a good idea to be like, okay, what are the songs that are driving The music industry right now, and if you're looking at those two platforms specifically, a lot of similarities because I think some songs are hits regardless of the platform, but a lot of differences too. I think there are a few things that stuck out. Spotify specifically is a bit more leaned, at least as of right now. It's a bit more skewed towards English speaking music. I think that's just given where it's got a lot of exposure. In the earlier years, Spotify, a Swedish company, had a lot of exposure specifically in Western Europe, and then we're seeing it now with a bit more of a saturated market now in North America, but YouTube has been much more international. As a, you know, result. And in many ways, as a compliment, it was a free service and a lot of times it was able to reach and help and make sure that people could upload and reach people all across the world. And I think with that, we've seen a lot more artists from Latin America that have been able to excel quite far on spot on YouTube's list specifically. And we may not see them as high on Spotify's list. So that's something that was definitely a bit unique. With Spotify specifically, it aligns a bit more towards radio hits in general because you think about music itself, it is a very flexible type of thing that people wanna consume. You can listen to something on Spotify while you're at a friend's party. You can listen to it while you're, you know, on, on yourself, demand. You're hearing music on the radio, the grocery store. There's so many ways where the same song can resonate in a way that watching the music video, it's a little. Right, like it's a much more active thing. You're gonna probably wanna sit here and have this more visual engagement and experience with it. So with that, it highlights a few things. One, YouTube is probably gonna be a bit more aligned to what someone may actively choose to wanna listen to. So there's some insights there. But YouTube's also a bit specific because. The platform is a bit more driven by memes and things like that, that probably just don't get as much notoriety or become as relevant as they would be on Spotify. Like for instance, are you all familiar with the song?, Nelly and Kelly Rowland, Dilemma. So there's this iconic scene in that music video where Kelly is texting someone and she's using Microsoft Excel to text the person . And it's bizarre because it's something that probably didn't get that much, you know, attention at the time it came out. But now that people can rewind and look at stuff, it's fascinating. So things like that, you know, just don't translate the same way. [00:30:15] Larry Miller: What about the community building and just the community-esque  interaction that has been natively part of YouTube for really quite a long time now that is still kind of blacking at Spotify? Is that a factor? [00:30:32] Dan Runcie: I think so. And I'm glad you brought that up because I think YouTube's power in a lot of ways is, you can look at the comment section of a lot of these songs, and it's almost like a trip down memory lane, especially for some of these songs that you may not have visited in a little bit of time. And artists can see the name of their fan, they can interact with them, they can find a way to be able to try to build a bit of a community there. You can't necessarily do that on the same platform on Spotify. I think in a lot of ways, Spotify and maybe some of the other digital streaming providers from a strategic perspective didn't necessarily give artists the option to be able to see who their fans were, because I think in some ways that data has so much value, right? Spotify may share it as a flex every now and then through Spotify wrapped and things like that, where you can be like, oh, I'm in the 0.4% of Travis Scott fans. You know, I guess I listen to, you know, whatever song too often. But besides that, you don't really have that. But think about the power that an artist could have if they could do that themselves on YouTube. Even though you don't get that data, you can still see some familiar people. You can, you know, find some way to connect or go off platform if you can. And that creates the ability to build a niche. And I think in some ways it helps you have the algorithm just work in your favor, right? Like I think YouTube just being based in general off of, you know, it's the second biggest search engine, so you're leveraging everything from Google's power to be able to help power that. It just helps you as an artist be able to connect directly. So someone I mentioned earlier, NBA young boy. The way that he's used YouTube has been pretty fascinating because he releases his music first on that platform and he's someone that's releasing music every time. And the way that he's been so focused on it, it's almost similar to someone like, do you all know who Mr. Beast is? The YouTuber? Yeah. I heard a few laughs there, but it's almost a bit of a similar mentality to that where he understands that this is his audience. He sees what's working in the algorithm  may continue to serve them, and because of the success from YouTube, he's been able to translate that to other platforms. So I do think that that's a platform, and I think there's a few of them, but artists being able to find a platform that allows them to connect with fans, and especially if fans in their niche or in their base happen to be there. It can be really powerfu. [00:33:04] Larry Miller: I want to remind you that we're gonna have a couple of minutes for questions from you and you know, please figure out what you'd like to ask Dan. And I'm not sure exactly where we're gonna have a mic set up, but I know it's gonna be somewhere. It's walking around the back of the room right now. But first I have another question. When we were talking earlier, we had talked a little bit about the shift in capital business model and that where you had started out as a subscription based business and now that it is, you know, entirely sponsorship driven and that one of the things that that has afforded you is the ability to help build deal flow as the result of the subject matter and the segment of the business that you're in as an angel investor. And I wonder if you can say more about that, about what your experience has been and what your aspirations are.  [00:34:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, thanks for asking that for me. Going back a little bit. When I initially started Trapital, the thought was to have this as a paid subscription service model where I would have a free piece that went out every week, and then if you wanted to have additional pieces written, and it would be specifically for the people that were most interested, and it would be $10 a month or a hundred dollars a year, and I did that a little under a year and things were working and I mean, things were growing. I took a step back because I felt like what was most effective for me and what was most effective for the type of things I'm doing was I wanted as many people as possible to be able to be able to either read or listen to the stuff that we're sharing because I felt like this wasn't like I was writing about tech or finance where there were plenty of people that had been writing about this, but there was something that, you know, you were gonna get like a trade secret or some insights from me that you wouldn't necessarily get elsewhere like you had shared in the intro in the beginning. I largely wanted to start this to be able to elevate and hopefully change the discussion so that when people talk about whether it's the business leaders and the strategic moves that are happening, your names like your Rihannas and your Jay-Z's can be mentioned in, you know, in the same breaths as your Jack Dorsey's or your Jack Welch's or other people like that. There are successful people in this industry that are doing this, and being able to highlight that was effective. So the more that I could broaden who could have access to it and who could read it, the more that that would be possible. And I felt that there was opportunity from a sponsorship perspective, from other companies in this space, or even tangentially outside of the space that wanted to align with this type of content and the type of people that were reading it, that I knew that not only could it match the revenue that was coming in from the subscription, it could likely be even larger. And with that, the more people it reaches, the more that it helps everything else grow. And one of the things that it's afforded me is the ability to not just be able to, you know, write and share insights about the strategy of what's happening, not just from the artist level, but from the companies that are in the space and technology, where a lot of them started to reach out to me and wanted to get my advice on, hey, this is what we're building. What do you think of X, Y, and Z? But what that specifically offered then was leading to the next conversation where, hey, we're gonna be raising. And we would love to have you on as an investor specifically because we think you have the insights and we think that you could be a value add to what we're building. And you know, after I think, you know, a few of those conversations, that's where I say, you know, this is something that can be taken more seriously because the insights are here and the spaces here are obvious. And I think that it became more and more clear that I could use this as an opportunity to, you know, back and support a lot of the companies in the space, specifically the ones that were aligned with the way that I had seen clearly what was working and what wasn't. So it's afforded me the opportunity to make angel investments in several of these companies and something that I'll continue to do through the work that I do here. And I think having a podcast, having a newsletter has been a great way to do that. And ultimately just continuing to, not just me, but other folks on the team with their help as well, to make sure that the content and the insights that we're sharing is as helpful as possible. Cuz at the end of the day, this is research that we wanna be able to make it reach as many people as possible that are interested. And then with that, knowing that it's not just the content and the insights that are helpful, but actually being able to provide, you know, financial backing and support to the companies in this space that can help, you know, make it, you know, as strong as it can be, not just for them, but for the other companies. I mean, it's a space that has had so much innovation and I think one of the things that's been a bit frustrating to see at particular points is that a lot of the newer companies in this space have had a PR, and had a pattern of asking for forgiveness instead of permission from the music industry. Yeah. To be able to use the rights of a lot of the songs, to be able to have a lot of the partnerships that they should have in place. And it doesn't have to be that way. I think there are great people out there that are building companies the right way. They're having the conversations early on and being able to help be part of that movement has been really fascinating and inspiring to see as well. [00:38:44] Larry Miller: Great. Thanks for sharing that, Dan. Let's go to your questions. I know that some of you have questions for Dan. If you do have one, there's an open mic in the middle of the floor and we'll give you a moment. Step right up. There is a questioner. [00:39:00] Audience 1: Hey, how are you doing? I just have a quick question. I'm really curious on how you feel about just botting in the industry in general, because I feel like when you were talking about the YouTube charts compared to Spotify, there could be some discrepancies in the data just because it's a lot easier to bot on YouTube versus Spotify you can get flagged. So I'm just kind of curious to know what your thoughts are around those charts. You know how accurate the data is and also what you think about that in general. Because I feel like, especially in hip hop too, it's really prevalent and it's definitely a lot about getting the numbers and stuff like that. And a lot of my clients have, you know, similar thoughts about that. So I'm just curious to know what your thoughts are on the morality of that. Is it worth it? Is it not? All those things. So yeah. Thank you. [00:39:43] Dan Runcie: Yep. Great question. I think I'll take it in two parts cuz I think there's issues with bots on streaming sites that are issues with bots on the ticketing side too. As you know, a lot of people have probably experienced it, but on the streaming side of it, it's something that I've looked at and thought it's frustrating and it's wrong because a lot of people are just gaming the system because I think that the technology has improved where a lot of things like streaming farms and things like that have been able to, it's become a little bit easier to be able to figure out like what to ignore, what not to include from a data perspective, where I think a lot of that's been ignored. But I think a few people, I don't know if anyone saw, but there was this video going around about how I don't know if it's true a hundred percent or not, but like Travis Scott's team, like gaming the system to be able to, you know what I'm referring to? Like, to be able to help boost the sales for Astro World. And it's one of these things where, okay, you could, if I'm taking a step back, directionally speaking, do I still think that he would've been as popular as he is without that happening? I still do. I mean, I think that there were so many things treading in that direction, but did that help? I'm sure it did. You know, so I still do think that it is something that is directionally, it can still give you a pretty clear idea over what's accurate and what's not. I think it's really hard to pierce through the top and be there consistently if it's purely driven by bots. But I do think that more likely than those things come to the surface in some way. Whether it's an artist that is streaming or they have tons of  social media followers, but then when it becomes time to try to sell a concert ticket, The tickets can't sell, and then that artist then has to downgrade a venue or they have to cancel the show because of things like that. These things always find a way to come to head. So I do think that in some cases, some type of retribution does often happen for artists specifically with streaming, just to get other questions in. I won't go into the ticketing piece of it. I think we all know how, you know, you know, horrible that that can be, but yeah. [00:41:52] Larry Miller: Do we have another question? Oh, good. Hi. Welcome back. [00:41:57] Audience 2: Who decided this way of asking questions? This is really weird. Hi Dan. Is the superstar dead? And if so, is that necessarily a bad thing?  [00:42:07] Dan Runcie: Good question. I don't think superstars are dead, but I do think the definition of what we describe them as has shifted and it continues to shift over time. Right, because. Let's say we go back to the sixties or even, let's take a step back. Even if you go back to the nineties and say, okay, our superstar's dead. No one is as big as Beatlemania was before people would say, you're right. No one's as big as Beatlemania, but Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey are still very popular as our Boys 2 Men are whoever else. And I think that's kind of shifted now to someone being like, okay, well our superstar's dead. Can someone be as big as Beyonce? They may not necessarily be as big as Beyonce in that same type of way, but I mean, Billie Eilish had a pretty good year. I think even though I think she came out in the late 2010s, she still had her, you know, big moment 2019. I think we're also seeing, I think if anything, the biggest superstar potential now, just given the way that things have expanded, is on the international side too. You look at what Bad Bunny’s doing. I mean, that is a superstar at every definition. The fact that a non-US album or a non-English speaking album has been on the top of the billboard list for almost the entire year is incredible and the billboard is really just capturing what's happening in the US. So imagine if that was a worldwide list. So, yeah, so I think it shifts in that way where I think, you know, 20 years from now, people will be saying, oh, is so-and-so, you know, or a superstar's dead because no one will be as Bad Bunny be as big as Bad Bunny. So I think it continues to evolve. [00:43:48] Larry Miller: Great. Hi, Max. [00:43:50] Audience 3: Hi. How's it going everybody? First off, I just want to say, I can't believe you started this speaking about Currensy. I'm a huge fan of his and he has a lot of unique ways of releasing music. And so my question is, if you're a burgeoning new artist who's trying to get as many listens as possible, would you suggest trying to move forward in platforms that are really big right now? Or finding platforms that are emerging, trying to develop a fan base there where there's less competition? [00:44:19] Dan Runcie: I think it's a mix, but I think, and maybe instead of the last piece of it in terms of finding platforms that are emerging, I think it's more so finding a platform that may seem less quote unquote sexy. But is that gonna be more so where your fans are where your folks like to be. Like for instance, I think a platform like Audio Mac has been doing pretty well over the past couple of years, and they may not get the same level of headlines that Spotify is, but if you are an artist that has a strong following in West Africa or in other parts of Africa, and you know that Audio Mac is one of the leading streaming platforms there. And then that's gonna work out tremendously in your advantage. And I don't know if I necessarily consider them like newer emerging, but I think it works out there. But on the other side of it too, still having exposure o on your Spotifys and your YouTubes and your Apple musics is still good as well because you want to, you don't know when that moment may be that you, for lack of a better word, like breakthrough and have that hit. And when you do, you wanna be able to still have something in those other places. Even if you had your home base on, you know, one of the platforms that may not get as much exposure but for the people you're trying to reach may be the best thing. [00:45:38] Larry Miller: What do you got? [00:45:40] Audience 4:  Hey. So, in a conversation of superstars, you know, you talked about the notion, the billboard, headline, you know, too many hits starting up superstars. The platformization of music where it is right now. Maybe it's a little bit harder for superstars to kind of come up and cut through the noise, but the potential, like you mentioned, to be a superstar is never any bigger in that sort of way. You mentioned the implications on, you know, from like the label side of things, from the other side of things a bit. In your opinion, what are the implications from a music consumption standpoint? You know, the average listener, people that listen to music in terms of the implications for music discovery, how music is in people's lifestyles and the way that it is now with platforms and just the superstar conversation as a whole? [00:46:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I thought about this a few ways because I think that one of the things that we're missing a bit because of the way things are now, is that someone can have a song that is topping the charts, but it's not the way that it was maybe like 10, 20 years ago where, oh, if the song is the number one song in the country, oh, like I heard it on the way to the grocery store and then I heard it on the radio and then my friend was probably playing it when I went over their house in the afternoon. No, it's more likely to be that the super fans of this song have been like, you know, streaming the hell out of it and they just have been going nonstop and I may not even know who that person is. So a bit of that water aspect isn't necessarily there as much from a fan perspective. I think the other piece of it is the algorithm of the streaming services double down on this more because at least when I log into Spotify or if I log into one of the streaming services, I'm more likely to see the songs that I've been listening to before. I'm more likely to get some type of daily mix that is based on what I've been listening to before. It's harder for me to be able to see. If I actually wanna see, okay, what are the new top hits? Like I have to search for that to some extent and go out of the algorithmic feed. That's already been tailored to me. So I think it makes it harder for me to go search for those things. And in some ways, the platforms kind of design it that way because they're like, okay, if they know that I am Rihanna fan. They're more likely to want to share with me more Rihanna songs I haven't listened to than assuming that I'm gonna like whoever may be the rising artist right now. So I think it makes it tougher from that perspective. And I think a bit of that shared community isn't, isn't there as much. So I think from a fan perspective, I've kind of had a bit of a double-edged sword because while I think part of what attracted me to so much music and memories is being able to have those shared experiences with people as opposed to now it's like, you may have like these super fandom experiences, but it's with these people that may not necessarily be in your direct area, but you're all connecting online in this way that you may not have. [00:48:33] Larry Miller: Okay, good. I think we have time for, well, let's ask this question and see how we're doing for time. Go ahead. [00:48:39] Dan Runcie: Maybe you could do like a rapid round, we could get through. [00:48:41] Audience 5:  Just really quick then, what are your thoughts on like NYC Drill? I know artists like Dio Sama are huge. Just on the data side like TikTok and YouTube, so what are your thoughts on it? Sort of, cuz I'm a little skeptical on it going really mass. Like, cuz we're really super focused on NYC. Just how big can Drill really get?  [00:49:03] Dan Runcie: Well, I think we've seen, you know, the growth and exposure in the Midwest specifically. I think so you've definitely seen it there. I think you've seen artists kind of having their own moment, whether it's someone like Ice Spice, who I think has blown up pretty recently. But I also think that moments of it hurt, right? I think it really would've been cool to see someone like Pop Smoke be able to have the moment and the rise that I think he was going to have. But even that, I think it's kind of interesting the way you phrased the question, because I think even for something like Drill music, there's probably certain people that, like the concept of Drill music, don't like to reach them in the same way. But if you're in it, you probably already think that it's overexposed to some extent, which I think kind of speaks to this like broader dynamic that we're in, where if you're in something, it can feel like if you're in that niche and you're focus, and I know it may sound awkward to call Drill music niche in that way, but if you're in that group, then yeah, it can seem like, oh wow, this thing has been going on for a while, and now it feels like it's everywhere. But if you don't really tap into Drill like that, someone could be like, oh, what's this thing? So I think that's something I keep in mind with it as well. Like there's still so much more exposure out there. So I don't necessarily have those concerns for Drill music. If anything, I think we'll probably see other regions, especially in the US, continue to adopt it more the way that we've seen New York and the Midwest, specifically Chicago. [00:50:26] Larry Miller: Let's go to what I think is gonna be a final question. Go ahead. [00:50:30] Audience 6: Okay. I just had a question about your thoughts and involvement in like A.I involvement in the music industry. You know, just like in terms of the recording side.  perhaps may potentially be in the Live side of the music industry as well. I don't know if there's any applications for that? But just your thoughts on that. [00:50:48] Dan Runcie: I'll keep this quick. It's funny, I was talking to someone about this earlier today. A.I and anything based on like GPT Three in general is fascinating because I do think it can be addictive for artists, but I feel like I can already see the headaches that are there with so many things, right? Because if it's based off existing content, and of course those content owners are rightfully gonna have certain issues about who's basing these A.I lyrics or songs off of things. I do think, though, that for certain artists it can be fascinating. I don't think it'll get to the point where someone could have like a song that they actually wanna release at a top level that is created by A.I. At least not now. The technology isn't there, but could it help with an artist that is having writer's block about a particular thing? I think it was interesting. There's a conversation. Bruce Springsteen was on an Interview and he was saying how like for him with A.I. he's looking at it as something where, you know, he's like, I've had months where I just didn't write cuz I essentially had writer's block. I just couldn't think of something to be able to put out there. But could A.I. just help jog my memory and even as someone that I am not a songwriter or a musician, but as a writer, I've been seeing these tools and the things they can do, and just being able to plus, you know, sign and then them being able to generate some thoughts, or at least a potential outline of, okay, what could this topic look like? It does at least help jog the memory in the way that reading an article or something like that can be such a fascinating space. I know we're over time, but yeah. Fascinating space.  [00:52:31] Larry Miller: Thank you. We're gonna have to leave this here for now, but you can hang out for a while and chat with everybody as we run through the rest of our program and maybe even a little bit afterward. And so let's thank Dan for a really thoughtful discussion. [00:52:50] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 05 Jan 2023 09:00:00 -0000 NYU Keynote: Music, Streaming, and Second-Order Effects full Dan Runcie I had the pleasure of being the keynote speaker at New York University’s Annual Alumni Event for its music business department. Big thanks to Larry Miller, a professor and director of the program, for inviting me.  It was a free-flowing conversation focused on how technology is reshaping the music industry from top-to-bottom. We’re well into the streaming era now, but some of the second-order effects are barely starting to ripple — particularly the oversaturation of content. It’s easier and cheaper than ever to release music, which explains how tens of thousands of new songs are uploaded to Spotify on a daily basis. On one hand, this has ushered in a golden era of independent artists making a career without the backing of a label. On the other hand, value is increasingly accruing to the superstar artists. Most of these superstars were “grandfathered” into this new era as they were already household names before streaming took off. Reaching that same superstar status is harder and harder for new artists due to the industry’s oversaturation.  Larry and I dove deeper into the issue during our conversation. Students also hit me with Q&A about burning topics such as ChatGPT, botted streaming numbers, and much more. Here’s what you can expect to hear on this episode:  [2:02] Introduction from Larry Miller  [5:09] Superstar artists like Taylor Swift and Drake shining brighter than ever [10:22] Too many hits, not enough superstars [17:23] How Curren$y “niched down” to break through [24:18] Tradeoffs of going independent or the major label route [26:47] Industry takeaways from Spotify and YouTube’s billions playlists [30:32] YouTube’s competitive advantage over Spotify [34:09] Evolving Trapital’s own business model [39:43] Music’s bot problem in streaming and ticketing [42:07] Is the music superstar dead? [44:19] Picking a platform(s) as a new artist [46:24] How oversaturated music landscape impacts listeners [49:03] Is New York drill music the next wave? [50:48] Pros and cons of AI music Trapital’s first-ever Cultural Report for 2022: https://trapital.co/culture-report/ Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co     Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Dan Runcie: Both Spotify and YouTube generated a tremendous amount of revenue for the music industry. I believe Spotify had last shared that they generated 7 billion for the industry. YouTube generates six or seven, I think it's 6 billion. The last thing that I had seen them put in. So that is a sign. Okay, great. You know, you tie that back into the numbers you shared before. You can do a little bit of backwards math to see how much of that is responsible for the overall industry with where it is now. So you see that, and then you also know that like anything else, the most popular songs drive most of that revenue. So you can kind of get a good idea to be like, okay, what are the songs that are driving? The music industry right now.  [00:00:46] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Dan Ruey. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  [00:01:04] (Intro) Dan Runcie: This episode is a fun one. We're sharing the audio from a talk that I recently gave at NYU. I was the keynote speaker at an event there for several hundred alumni and students. For the music business program, it starts off with a 10 minute talk by me where I'm giving an overview on the lay of the land with where things lay right now with streaming and music and social media, and how artists are doing their best to navigate all of the noise that's happening right now. And then it pivots into a conversation. Which is a fireside chat with me and Larry Miller, who's the head of the music program at N Y U, and we talk even more about what certain artists are doing, right? We talked about Currensy, who I recently had on the podcast a couple months ago. We also talk a little bit about me and Trapital and building this and where I see things going in the future. Really fun conversation. I really enjoyed doing this event and I hope you enjoyed this. Here it goes.  [00:02:02] Larry Miller: Dan Runcie is the founder of Trapital. Trapital has become an amazing media platform and the quality and amount of content, really insightful content that Dan cranks out as remarkable. It's just remarkable. What it's about is the people who are taking hip hop and culture to the next level. That includes the artists who are becoming moguls, leaders who are reaching new heights and fans inspired by hip hop's growing influence. Dan, when he'd school, and I suppose even, you know, business school. This media company Trapital, because he wanted to see a change. The hip hop execs that he looked up to were becoming really successful business leaders, but he felt that they rarely got the coverage that they deserved. And he wanted to do something about it. So he launched Trapital in March of 2018, and the business has grown ever since. Tens of thousands of influential people read Trapital's weekly memos and listen to the Trapital Podcast every week to stay ahead of the latest trends. Trapital's been featured pretty much everywhere. Places like The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, and the BBC and N P R,  C N B C and lots of other places are turning to Dan for insights on the business of hip hop. Dan's recent coverage has focused on lots of things. He's focused on the surprising differences between Spotify's and YouTube's. Billion stream playlists. Just looking at the ones that have done a billion on each platform. There are actually some pretty interesting differences between those two platforms. He's done significant work on how a venture capital fund from a 16 Z, Andreas and Horowitz invest money that is raised exclusively from black leaders in entertainment, sports, and business. He's done a report on the so-called decline in the influence of hip hop culture. He's done work on the future of ticketing. He's done a lot on DIY careers in hip hop, and done some really insightful reporting around Joe Kelli's amazing new book, Rap Capital, the Rise and Reign of Atlanta's hip hop culture, which if you haven't read it, get it. Dan got his MBA from a school in the Midwest, I think it's called Michigan, and he lives in San Francisco with his wife, and small child, daughter. Please give a warm NYU music biz welcome to Dan Runcie. [00:05:09] Dan Runcie: Larry, thank you to the entire faculty, alumni for having me. It's an honor to be here. And I guess to start things off, because she's been brought up a few times, Taylor Swift has been a topic I know a lot of you thought about. So just outta curiosity, how many of you tried to buy Taylor Swift tickets this week? Okay, a few hands. Keep those hands up if you actually got Taylor Swift tickets this week. Okay? All right. Well, people will have to follow up with you all after to figure out exactly how you did that, but I think that's an interesting place to start with so much of what's happening right now in the music industry, because Ticketmaster, as most of you know, the whole entire app and the site crash because of the high demand. Ticketmaster put out this blog post and they said that they had five times the amount of hits compared to the Super Bowl, compared to other high days worth of events for this concert alone for Taylor Swift, and she's someone that's been on tour before. She's someone that has done plenty of things in music, but to see this kind of demand is pretty surprising. But she also broke a bunch of records with the album that she just put out a couple weeks ago, Midnights, and it's made me think about something we've talked a lot about recently, in Trapital. Something we've done a lot of research on. Right now there is so much music coming. I see, I think a few of you probably saw that music business Worldwide article, Spotify releases it. A hundred thousand songs a day get uploaded to that service. Most of those songs don't get listened to, to be clear, but a hundred thousand songs a day is still something else. And then as Larry had mentioned as well, Live Nation and a lot of these other event promoters and ticketing companies are having their biggest quarters and biggest years. And artists like Taylor are probably going to be having record years. And on the flip side, you also look at someone like Drake. Him and 21 Savage recently just put out their album, Her Loss. I think Drake gave one week's notice on this album, fourth highest streaming week that an album has ever had, which is pretty impressive. I know that Drake's a superstar, but still, even his past albums before this had plenty of buildup before where if you think about what he did with Scorpion or even the long buildup for an album like Certified Lover Boy. But the fact that Drake can announce on short notice is pretty surprising because if you think about where things are in music, you have more artists than ever that wanna tour. You have more artists than ever that are releasing music, but it's the superstar artists that are still the ones that people are gravitating more towards and they're the ones that are still getting most of the profits. But on the other side of the spectrum, things are getting a little bit tougher because Larry mentioned it a little bit earlier, but a lot of artists are struggling to make toward profitable, especially post pandemic the way that things are right now. Inflation costs are rising. It's costing so much more from freight costs to be able to travel with an entire production set from city to city, hotel airfare. So certain artists are selling out their tours or selling out their concert tickets, but they still aren't able to generate profit unless they increase the ticket prices. But even if you do that to a certain extent, the customers are going to push back. I'm sure a lot of people have seen all the complaints that people have had about how high the prices are, all these hidden fees. So there's a little bit of a squeeze there. And I think what we're seeing now is something that we've seen happen in the media, something that we've seen happen in music, but the fact that the barriers to entry have made music more easy to access, and now that we're in a post pandemic world, more people wanna be outside than ever. It's a lot of the artists at the top that are doing extremely well. But on the other side of the spectrum, while you do have some folks struggling, there are artists who are doing extremely well on the independent side of things. These are artists oftentimes that are owning their masters. These are artists that own their publishing rights as well. And because they've been able to keep a low cost and they've been able to essentially build from the ground up and continue to do it almost the way that a CEO in the music industry will be building up their business. They've been able to build pretty successful businesses too, in many ways. Leveraging the power of the internet because whether it's through SoundCloud or using YouTube or any of these other platforms, they can use their content or they can use their content to be able to drive awareness to their music. And then with that, they can then build up their audience and ultimately, Do that more successfully than they might have otherwise if they were to join one of the major record labels. So it's in this interesting piece because a lot of those artists feel like they have to make a decision, and Larry and I are gonna talk a little bit about one of them in a bit, but it's making artists, and I think many people in the music industry kind of pause because of the amount of content that's coming out, because of the amount of music that's coming out, it's a little bit harder to be able to pierce through. How many of you remember about a month ago, there was a billboard article that came out that said too many hits, not enough superstars, there was named something around that. Does that ring a bell? Okay. I've seen a few folks nod their heads there, and there were a few quotes in that article that stuck out to me because you had a lot of folks that are A & R or other executives in the industry that would say, we're doing all the things that they're telling us to do. We’re doing all the TikTok campaigns, we're doing the same press runs, we are creating the content, we're putting it out there. But even if we do all those things, We still can't guarantee that an artist that we think is going to be successful can get there, and that's because at the end of the day, the record labels and the artists themselves don't have control over the TikTok algorithms. They don't have control over the Instagram feeds to be able to tell what specifically is going to rise to the top and how you can break through another piece from that same article that stuck out to me. How many are you familiar with Steve? Okay. Pretty familiar. And it stuck out because there was a recent concert that he did and he was singing his song at the concert. The audience, the voices, got quiet once it got past that TikTok moment of the song. And if you're an artist, you're putting everything into your album. Of course you know that your fans are probably gonna sing harder to the hit songs under the singles. But because through the TikTok piece. I mean, it's just a reminder of how things are coming and where things are going. Even the concept of a one hit wonder I think has changed quite a bit because back when a lot of us probably were growing up, even if an artist was a one hit wonder, you still probably knew something about that artist. I mean, we can go back years ago, but even someone like Lou Bega who had that song, Mambo Number Five, or even someone like Trinidad James who had all gold everything, you still remember the videos, if you saw them walking down the street, you could probably recognize them. Or I've still been to, you know, a few events where I've seen some of these folks at. But now a one hit wonder could have just a song that you may hear a bit often, but you're recognizing it from some meme that someone else did on their TikTok video or someone else did. So you're engaging a bit more with the viral hit itself than the actual person that's making the music. So it's making things a lot tougher for a lot of artists who I think are the majority of them, wanna be successful, wanna be known and wanna get a few looks. But that middle ground of just wanting to be able to feel like you have that moderate place, you're kind of in the middle of the industry. It's getting a little bit harder to continue to have that being viable because now as I mentioned, you're starting to see a bit of this path where you have the superstars who are just getting more and more recognition as there's more and more options than ever. Or the independent artists who, even though the economics work in their favor, even though they may be able to do even better financially than some artists who may get more exposure than them, they may not be getting looked at the same, as some of their peers are. So it's a very interesting place for the industry. I think with that, it presents a ton of opportunity, but I also think that for certain artists, especially hip hop artists, there's a little bit of a mindset shift in terms of how am I releasing music? What is it that I wanna release? Because I think for a while it seemed like there was a blueprint that generally most people do. You put your music out, maybe you have a following on social media, you share that. You share a little bit of your personality. Hopefully a good manager can come to you if you find one or vice versa. If you do well, you're able to break through. Then maybe a major record label can find you. There was a bit of a general path, but now you're starting to see more and more of that split, and it's making artists in a lot of ways, think a bit sooner about what that decision is when you're still figuring out where it is and where you honestly wanna be. Do you wanna try to become the next Taylor Swift or the next Drake, or do you wanna try to do this a bit more yourself and have a bit more control over what you do? Because the thing is, even things like that, like becoming the next Drake or becoming the next Taylor Swift, have plenty of nuance part of other things that people have been talking about is how much harder it is for a newer artist to be able to hit the same levels. The fact that, you know, we're still referencing whether it's your Adele's or Beyonce's or Taylor Swifts, or Drake's, a lot of these artists have been famous years before TikTok was ever a thing. They still had a lot of that monocultural benefit of when they blew up, they were the thing, and they were able to benefit from that and have a lot of exposure. So now any of the platforms they had, it's all gravy. Now it's all added. They can use that to their advantage, but you are now trying to rise up and do that same thing, it's harder. Even someone like Olivia Rodrigo. Any fans of Olivia Rodrigo? So she is someone who I think Driver's License in a lot of ways for some people felt like the song blew up overnight and it did extremely successful, as did her album. But she was a Disney kid. She had been famous for years before leading up to that. So even that isn't quite at that same level. So it's a very interesting time in the industry. It's been a really great time to working the work we're doing at Trapital specifically to understand what this means. We're talking to a lot of different artists. We're talking to a lot of their managers, and really just making sure that we can share the best stories that we can about what's working, what's not, and highlighting those things. Cuz I think at the end of the day, you wanna find a way for artists to be successful. You wanna find a way for the people that are trying to build companies in the space to be successful, but it's very important to with the way things are trending right now, and a lot of people are saying, oh, it's oversaturated. Oh, we hope that we can eventually get back to a place that is less saturated. I don't think that's happening. The cat's out of the box at this point. If anything, there's gonna be more and more exposure more and more platforms. You look at how quickly TikTok grew to be a platform that has 1 billion monthly active users at this rate. There could be another platform that hasn't even grown yet that by 2026 could be that big. That's just how big things are from a connectivity perspective. So you never know what things could look like, but I think for where things are heading in the music industry there, it's a really fascinating time and even there's a lot of the established superstars that have done extremely well. There's still a ton of potential opportunity. I'll pause there cuz I know that Larry and I can talk a little bit more about that. But it is such a unique time and I think it's probably a good time for us to continue having the conversation because one of the people I do wanna talk to you about is Currency, who is an artist there. So we can do that in a moment, but yeah. [00:17:23] Larry Miller: A New Orleans hip hop artist who's got a lot going, you guys know Currensy. Woo woo. So what's the deal and what made this especially noteworthy for you? [00:17:36] Dan Runcie: So Currensy is someone who I had interviewed about a month ago and it was a pleasure to have him on as a guest on a podcast. I talked to him and his long-time business manager and partner Musa, and Currensy is someone who has been through each aspect of the music industry and I think in capsules a lot of what we've been talking about here. He first got exposure about 20 years ago. He was signed to Masterpiece No Limit label, and of course there's the whole New Orleans connection there. He ended up leaving New No Limit, and then he eventually signed on with Cash, Money and Young Money specifically under Lil Wayne. The thing is though, he actually ended up leaving cash money right around the 2007-2008 timeframe, which was a bit unique because that was the time that Drake and Nicki Minaj ended up joining them as well. And that label went on a pretty high trajectory after that. So some of the young money fans may often be like, oh, what could have happened? Right. But I actually think it was probably the best thing for Currensy because he realized that he was speaking to a slightly different audience, and specifically he knew that there were certain things that he was gonna be able to share with them that would resonate. That probably may not make sense trying to be on the next Lil Wayne mixtape or trying to be on the next Young Money collection or whatever it is. So he's been able to continue his career since, but he has a bit more of an interesting model where you see artists like him, NBA Young Boys, another one, but these artists are releasing albums every other month or releasing mixtapes every other month on streaming. And it's one of these things whenever people talk about that, it often becomes a bit of this question, where is this quality that's being put out? Or is this just quantity? And I think it's a very real thing. I mean, as someone that grew up enjoying a lot of music, even the artists that are successful now, from a personal fan perspective, you know? Yeah. It means something that, yes, you know, Beyonce drops Renaissance. We haven't heard her do a solo album since 2016, and she did one this summer. Okay. I'm listening. Same thing with Adele when she had hers, but I think that for Currensy, I'm not in, I may not be in that fan base demographic specifically, but the people that are following him on a regular basis love him. So he is focused on his true fans, he's found them. And by being able to do that, ultimately these people are gonna wanna hear from you on a more regular basis. Even if it isn't your best stuff, it's what they're gonna want to hear and it speaks to the flexibility that is offered now with streaming because before, just with how much it cost to release an album, yeah, it made perfect sense why you would wait and wanna save your best stuff for it. But if an artist wants to have the model where they wanna release frequency frequently and drop as often as they can, they can do that. And the platforms give them the flexibility. And someone like Currensy, the way he put it to me was, you know, there's certain artists that are gonna get 80 million streams a day. They're more popular than I am, but they don't drop as often as I do. And I'm gonna get my 80 million streams as well, even if I'm putting out much more music than they are. And for a lot of artists, they're still recording the same amount of music. They're just shit picking the best ones to pick for the album versus someone like Currensy's like, no, let me share most of it and share it with the fans. So it's very interesting to hear that. And then specifically since then, he's been able to take a lot of that money. He is solely focused, for the most part on tours. Really doesn't do too many festivals because he doesn't feel like that is where his true fans are. So leaning even more so into the true fan piece, been able to build up and create a few different nightclubs and places like that in New Orleans. He has an apparel company, Jet Life, so it's been a really interesting model for someone to leverage the tools that are available. And even though he may not speak to me or you specifically, he has his people. That to me shows the power of artists being able to focus on their niche and being able to build from there. [00:21:38] Larry Miller: How broad do you think this, you know, phenomenon is? I mean, you made a point a couple of minutes ago that it's only gonna get bigger. There's only going to be more of this. And I think that the inference for the incumbents for, you know, the majors in particular is that they need to, you know, continue to, you know, innovate and unbundle the thing that they do and be really good and, and competitive at it. You know, the leverage seems to be moving overwhelmingly toward the side of the individual music creator. You seeing more of that? [00:22:16] Dan Runcie: I think there's nuance there, and it's something I've thought a lot about because on one hand you do see the overall revenue share numbers, where the share of at least recorded music revenue from independent artists is continuing to grow, and I believe now it's over 30% and has continued to grow year over year, the past couple of years. On the other side of it though, if you're looking at the top artists on the Spotify charts or the top artists on any of these other charts, it's still mostly signed artists that are there. Those signed artists may not necessarily, let's see, be as many new names. Like it's gonna be harder for someone to dominate the entire list the way that Taylor or Drake do when they release an album. But most of the ones that are still there are still the signed folks. So I do feel like a lot of at least for the folks on the record label specifically and the people that are working there or the people that are working at publishing companies, they still are working with the majority of the most popular artists. I know there was a quote recently from Steven Cooper from Warner Music Group and he said, our record label is less dependent on superstars than it has been in the past. And I think there's a lot of truth to that just because you can see who's being signed to wear, you can see how many stars they've been able to develop ever since. And even though there may be less big names that they may have had. There's still a higher likelihood that a big name is gonna come from them than it would be from, you know, an independent group, from an independent artist. I would say, especially at the top level. Mm-hmm. I would say. Yeah. [00:23:51] Larry Miller: Right. And so for an individual artist, they may need to go through a, you know, calculation that evolves over a period of time about whether they have the ambition. and the drive to become Drake or Taylor Swift, or if they can make, you know, just as much or maybe more on a probability adjusted basis doing it for themselves.  [00:24:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I do think that. If you're an artist and you wanna shoot for the stars, I think that even though there's a ton more platforms and there's many other tools out there that are making it easier for you to own your masters and own the rights to everything that you have, even the artists that have ended their deals, they're much more likely to resign with the major record labels or resign with the publishing companies, but having you know better terms than they did before. You've seen that with the weekend, and you've seen that with a few of the artists, specifically, a lot of the ones signed to Republic Records, they've, you know, de-risk themselves essentially as assets so they're able to get better terms. And they may have gotten on that first deal many years ago, but I do think that that means a few things, right? That means that those artists themselves that are already established, they're more likely to wanna stay there. But I do think for the newer artists, there's still plenty of opportunity because there are still a number of companies that wanna be able to partner with them and help them build. Right. You were just referencing Downtown and one of their key tenants of their mission is, let's help you become a superstar where you can continue to own the assets that you have. And there's a tremendous team there that has a tremendous amount of backing and tools to be able to make that happen. So I think things like that are really, really interesting. I think we'll have to continue to see how it plays out to see if we can see someone that can continue to go that route without ever having to given it up. Cuz I think right now you've seen a lot of folks were traded in at least, you know, some ownership for their rights early on. But then once they got enough leverage, they were able to get them back, which I think is powerful and in their own right. But have we seen it the other way where they started off owning everything and they've continued to own throughout their career? I think naturally there's any type of trade off you have to do when you have a business partnership. So part of that comes with the territory. But with so much flexibility and so many more options, it's gonna be interesting to watch. And that's one thing I'm interested in. [00:26:23] Larry Miller: You just mentioned the charts a minute ago, and I know that you just did a pretty deep dive on a comparison, of the billion stream or billion view charts that YouTube and Spotify separately came out with, that revealed some sort of interesting, you know, nuanced insights about what is similar but different about those platforms. What did you find?  [00:26:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I guess first for a little bit of context there, one of the drivers for this analysis was because, both Spotify and YouTube generated a tremendous amount of revenue for the music industry. I believe Spotify had last shared that they generated 7 billion for the industry. YouTube generates six or seven, I think it's 6 billion. The last thing that I had seen them put in, so, that is a sign. Okay, great. You know, you tie that back into the numbers you shared before. You can do a little bit of backwards math to see how much of that is responsible for the overall industry with where it is now. So you see that, and then you also know that like anything else, the most popular songs drive most of that revenue. So you can kind of get a good idea to be like, okay, what are the songs that are driving The music industry right now, and if you're looking at those two platforms specifically, a lot of similarities because I think some songs are hits regardless of the platform, but a lot of differences too. I think there are a few things that stuck out. Spotify specifically is a bit more leaned, at least as of right now. It's a bit more skewed towards English speaking music. I think that's just given where it's got a lot of exposure. In the earlier years, Spotify, a Swedish company, had a lot of exposure specifically in Western Europe, and then we're seeing it now with a bit more of a saturated market now in North America, but YouTube has been much more international. As a, you know, result. And in many ways, as a compliment, it was a free service and a lot of times it was able to reach and help and make sure that people could upload and reach people all across the world. And I think with that, we've seen a lot more artists from Latin America that have been able to excel quite far on spot on YouTube's list specifically. And we may not see them as high on Spotify's list. So that's something that was definitely a bit unique. With Spotify specifically, it aligns a bit more towards radio hits in general because you think about music itself, it is a very flexible type of thing that people wanna consume. You can listen to something on Spotify while you're at a friend's party. You can listen to it while you're, you know, on, on yourself, demand. You're hearing music on the radio, the grocery store. There's so many ways where the same song can resonate in a way that watching the music video, it's a little. Right, like it's a much more active thing. You're gonna probably wanna sit here and have this more visual engagement and experience with it. So with that, it highlights a few things. One, YouTube is probably gonna be a bit more aligned to what someone may actively choose to wanna listen to. So there's some insights there. But YouTube's also a bit specific because. The platform is a bit more driven by memes and things like that, that probably just don't get as much notoriety or become as relevant as they would be on Spotify. Like for instance, are you all familiar with the song?, Nelly and Kelly Rowland, Dilemma. So there's this iconic scene in that music video where Kelly is texting someone and she's using Microsoft Excel to text the person . And it's bizarre because it's something that probably didn't get that much, you know, attention at the time it came out. But now that people can rewind and look at stuff, it's fascinating. So things like that, you know, just don't translate the same way. [00:30:15] Larry Miller: What about the community building and just the community-esque  interaction that has been natively part of YouTube for really quite a long time now that is still kind of blacking at Spotify? Is that a factor? [00:30:32] Dan Runcie: I think so. And I'm glad you brought that up because I think YouTube's power in a lot of ways is, you can look at the comment section of a lot of these songs, and it's almost like a trip down memory lane, especially for some of these songs that you may not have visited in a little bit of time. And artists can see the name of their fan, they can interact with them, they can find a way to be able to try to build a bit of a community there. You can't necessarily do that on the same platform on Spotify. I think in a lot of ways, Spotify and maybe some of the other digital streaming providers from a strategic perspective didn't necessarily give artists the option to be able to see who their fans were, because I think in some ways that data has so much value, right? Spotify may share it as a flex every now and then through Spotify wrapped and things like that, where you can be like, oh, I'm in the 0.4% of Travis Scott fans. You know, I guess I listen to, you know, whatever song too often. But besides that, you don't really have that. But think about the power that an artist could have if they could do that themselves on YouTube. Even though you don't get that data, you can still see some familiar people. You can, you know, find some way to connect or go off platform if you can. And that creates the ability to build a niche. And I think in some ways it helps you have the algorithm just work in your favor, right? Like I think YouTube just being based in general off of, you know, it's the second biggest search engine, so you're leveraging everything from Google's power to be able to help power that. It just helps you as an artist be able to connect directly. So someone I mentioned earlier, NBA young boy. The way that he's used YouTube has been pretty fascinating because he releases his music first on that platform and he's someone that's releasing music every time. And the way that he's been so focused on it, it's almost similar to someone like, do you all know who Mr. Beast is? The YouTuber? Yeah. I heard a few laughs there, but it's almost a bit of a similar mentality to that where he understands that this is his audience. He sees what's working in the algorithm  may continue to serve them, and because of the success from YouTube, he's been able to translate that to other platforms. So I do think that that's a platform, and I think there's a few of them, but artists being able to find a platform that allows them to connect with fans, and especially if fans in their niche or in their base happen to be there. It can be really powerfu. [00:33:04] Larry Miller: I want to remind you that we're gonna have a couple of minutes for questions from you and you know, please figure out what you'd like to ask Dan. And I'm not sure exactly where we're gonna have a mic set up, but I know it's gonna be somewhere. It's walking around the back of the room right now. But first I have another question. When we were talking earlier, we had talked a little bit about the shift in capital business model and that where you had started out as a subscription based business and now that it is, you know, entirely sponsorship driven and that one of the things that that has afforded you is the ability to help build deal flow as the result of the subject matter and the segment of the business that you're in as an angel investor. And I wonder if you can say more about that, about what your experience has been and what your aspirations are.  [00:34:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, thanks for asking that for me. Going back a little bit. When I initially started Trapital, the thought was to have this as a paid subscription service model where I would have a free piece that went out every week, and then if you wanted to have additional pieces written, and it would be specifically for the people that were most interested, and it would be $10 a month or a hundred dollars a year, and I did that a little under a year and things were working and I mean, things were growing. I took a step back because I felt like what was most effective for me and what was most effective for the type of things I'm doing was I wanted as many people as possible to be able to be able to either read or listen to the stuff that we're sharing because I felt like this wasn't like I was writing about tech or finance where there were plenty of people that had been writing about this, but there was something that, you know, you were gonna get like a trade secret or some insights from me that you wouldn't necessarily get elsewhere like you had shared in the intro in the beginning. I largely wanted to start this to be able to elevate and hopefully change the discussion so that when people talk about whether it's the business leaders and the strategic moves that are happening, your names like your Rihannas and your Jay-Z's can be mentioned in, you know, in the same breaths as your Jack Dorsey's or your Jack Welch's or other people like that. There are successful people in this industry that are doing this, and being able to highlight that was effective. So the more that I could broaden who could have access to it and who could read it, the more that that would be possible. And I felt that there was opportunity from a sponsorship perspective, from other companies in this space, or even tangentially outside of the space that wanted to align with this type of content and the type of people that were reading it, that I knew that not only could it match the revenue that was coming in from the subscription, it could likely be even larger. And with that, the more people it reaches, the more that it helps everything else grow. And one of the things that it's afforded me is the ability to not just be able to, you know, write and share insights about the strategy of what's happening, not just from the artist level, but from the companies that are in the space and technology, where a lot of them started to reach out to me and wanted to get my advice on, hey, this is what we're building. What do you think of X, Y, and Z? But what that specifically offered then was leading to the next conversation where, hey, we're gonna be raising. And we would love to have you on as an investor specifically because we think you have the insights and we think that you could be a value add to what we're building. And you know, after I think, you know, a few of those conversations, that's where I say, you know, this is something that can be taken more seriously because the insights are here and the spaces here are obvious. And I think that it became more and more clear that I could use this as an opportunity to, you know, back and support a lot of the companies in the space, specifically the ones that were aligned with the way that I had seen clearly what was working and what wasn't. So it's afforded me the opportunity to make angel investments in several of these companies and something that I'll continue to do through the work that I do here. And I think having a podcast, having a newsletter has been a great way to do that. And ultimately just continuing to, not just me, but other folks on the team with their help as well, to make sure that the content and the insights that we're sharing is as helpful as possible. Cuz at the end of the day, this is research that we wanna be able to make it reach as many people as possible that are interested. And then with that, knowing that it's not just the content and the insights that are helpful, but actually being able to provide, you know, financial backing and support to the companies in this space that can help, you know, make it, you know, as strong as it can be, not just for them, but for the other companies. I mean, it's a space that has had so much innovation and I think one of the things that's been a bit frustrating to see at particular points is that a lot of the newer companies in this space have had a PR, and had a pattern of asking for forgiveness instead of permission from the music industry. Yeah. To be able to use the rights of a lot of the songs, to be able to have a lot of the partnerships that they should have in place. And it doesn't have to be that way. I think there are great people out there that are building companies the right way. They're having the conversations early on and being able to help be part of that movement has been really fascinating and inspiring to see as well. [00:38:44] Larry Miller: Great. Thanks for sharing that, Dan. Let's go to your questions. I know that some of you have questions for Dan. If you do have one, there's an open mic in the middle of the floor and we'll give you a moment. Step right up. There is a questioner. [00:39:00] Audience 1: Hey, how are you doing? I just have a quick question. I'm really curious on how you feel about just botting in the industry in general, because I feel like when you were talking about the YouTube charts compared to Spotify, there could be some discrepancies in the data just because it's a lot easier to bot on YouTube versus Spotify you can get flagged. So I'm just kind of curious to know what your thoughts are around those charts. You know how accurate the data is and also what you think about that in general. Because I feel like, especially in hip hop too, it's really prevalent and it's definitely a lot about getting the numbers and stuff like that. And a lot of my clients have, you know, similar thoughts about that. So I'm just curious to know what your thoughts are on the morality of that. Is it worth it? Is it not? All those things. So yeah. Thank you. [00:39:43] Dan Runcie: Yep. Great question. I think I'll take it in two parts cuz I think there's issues with bots on streaming sites that are issues with bots on the ticketing side too. As you know, a lot of people have probably experienced it, but on the streaming side of it, it's something that I've looked at and thought it's frustrating and it's wrong because a lot of people are just gaming the system because I think that the technology has improved where a lot of things like streaming farms and things like that have been able to, it's become a little bit easier to be able to figure out like what to ignore, what not to include from a data perspective, where I think a lot of that's been ignored. But I think a few people, I don't know if anyone saw, but there was this video going around about how I don't know if it's true a hundred percent or not, but like Travis Scott's team, like gaming the system to be able to, you know what I'm referring to? Like, to be able to help boost the sales for Astro World. And it's one of these things where, okay, you could, if I'm taking a step back, directionally speaking, do I still think that he would've been as popular as he is without that happening? I still do. I mean, I think that there were so many things treading in that direction, but did that help? I'm sure it did. You know, so I still do think that it is something that is directionally, it can still give you a pretty clear idea over what's accurate and what's not. I think it's really hard to pierce through the top and be there consistently if it's purely driven by bots. But I do think that more likely than those things come to the surface in some way. Whether it's an artist that is streaming or they have tons of  social media followers, but then when it becomes time to try to sell a concert ticket, The tickets can't sell, and then that artist then has to downgrade a venue or they have to cancel the show because of things like that. These things always find a way to come to head. So I do think that in some cases, some type of retribution does often happen for artists specifically with streaming, just to get other questions in. I won't go into the ticketing piece of it. I think we all know how, you know, you know, horrible that that can be, but yeah. [00:41:52] Larry Miller: Do we have another question? Oh, good. Hi. Welcome back. [00:41:57] Audience 2: Who decided this way of asking questions? This is really weird. Hi Dan. Is the superstar dead? And if so, is that necessarily a bad thing?  [00:42:07] Dan Runcie: Good question. I don't think superstars are dead, but I do think the definition of what we describe them as has shifted and it continues to shift over time. Right, because. Let's say we go back to the sixties or even, let's take a step back. Even if you go back to the nineties and say, okay, our superstar's dead. No one is as big as Beatlemania was before people would say, you're right. No one's as big as Beatlemania, but Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey are still very popular as our Boys 2 Men are whoever else. And I think that's kind of shifted now to someone being like, okay, well our superstar's dead. Can someone be as big as Beyonce? They may not necessarily be as big as Beyonce in that same type of way, but I mean, Billie Eilish had a pretty good year. I think even though I think she came out in the late 2010s, she still had her, you know, big moment 2019. I think we're also seeing, I think if anything, the biggest superstar potential now, just given the way that things have expanded, is on the international side too. You look at what Bad Bunny’s doing. I mean, that is a superstar at every definition. The fact that a non-US album or a non-English speaking album has been on the top of the billboard list for almost the entire year is incredible and the billboard is really just capturing what's happening in the US. So imagine if that was a worldwide list. So, yeah, so I think it shifts in that way where I think, you know, 20 years from now, people will be saying, oh, is so-and-so, you know, or a superstar's dead because no one will be as Bad Bunny be as big as Bad Bunny. So I think it continues to evolve. [00:43:48] Larry Miller: Great. Hi, Max. [00:43:50] Audience 3: Hi. How's it going everybody? First off, I just want to say, I can't believe you started this speaking about Currensy. I'm a huge fan of his and he has a lot of unique ways of releasing music. And so my question is, if you're a burgeoning new artist who's trying to get as many listens as possible, would you suggest trying to move forward in platforms that are really big right now? Or finding platforms that are emerging, trying to develop a fan base there where there's less competition? [00:44:19] Dan Runcie: I think it's a mix, but I think, and maybe instead of the last piece of it in terms of finding platforms that are emerging, I think it's more so finding a platform that may seem less quote unquote sexy. But is that gonna be more so where your fans are where your folks like to be. Like for instance, I think a platform like Audio Mac has been doing pretty well over the past couple of years, and they may not get the same level of headlines that Spotify is, but if you are an artist that has a strong following in West Africa or in other parts of Africa, and you know that Audio Mac is one of the leading streaming platforms there. And then that's gonna work out tremendously in your advantage. And I don't know if I necessarily consider them like newer emerging, but I think it works out there. But on the other side of it too, still having exposure o on your Spotifys and your YouTubes and your Apple musics is still good as well because you want to, you don't know when that moment may be that you, for lack of a better word, like breakthrough and have that hit. And when you do, you wanna be able to still have something in those other places. Even if you had your home base on, you know, one of the platforms that may not get as much exposure but for the people you're trying to reach may be the best thing. [00:45:38] Larry Miller: What do you got? [00:45:40] Audience 4:  Hey. So, in a conversation of superstars, you know, you talked about the notion, the billboard, headline, you know, too many hits starting up superstars. The platformization of music where it is right now. Maybe it's a little bit harder for superstars to kind of come up and cut through the noise, but the potential, like you mentioned, to be a superstar is never any bigger in that sort of way. You mentioned the implications on, you know, from like the label side of things, from the other side of things a bit. In your opinion, what are the implications from a music consumption standpoint? You know, the average listener, people that listen to music in terms of the implications for music discovery, how music is in people's lifestyles and the way that it is now with platforms and just the superstar conversation as a whole? [00:46:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I thought about this a few ways because I think that one of the things that we're missing a bit because of the way things are now, is that someone can have a song that is topping the charts, but it's not the way that it was maybe like 10, 20 years ago where, oh, if the song is the number one song in the country, oh, like I heard it on the way to the grocery store and then I heard it on the radio and then my friend was probably playing it when I went over their house in the afternoon. No, it's more likely to be that the super fans of this song have been like, you know, streaming the hell out of it and they just have been going nonstop and I may not even know who that person is. So a bit of that water aspect isn't necessarily there as much from a fan perspective. I think the other piece of it is the algorithm of the streaming services double down on this more because at least when I log into Spotify or if I log into one of the streaming services, I'm more likely to see the songs that I've been listening to before. I'm more likely to get some type of daily mix that is based on what I've been listening to before. It's harder for me to be able to see. If I actually wanna see, okay, what are the new top hits? Like I have to search for that to some extent and go out of the algorithmic feed. That's already been tailored to me. So I think it makes it harder for me to go search for those things. And in some ways, the platforms kind of design it that way because they're like, okay, if they know that I am Rihanna fan. They're more likely to want to share with me more Rihanna songs I haven't listened to than assuming that I'm gonna like whoever may be the rising artist right now. So I think it makes it tougher from that perspective. And I think a bit of that shared community isn't, isn't there as much. So I think from a fan perspective, I've kind of had a bit of a double-edged sword because while I think part of what attracted me to so much music and memories is being able to have those shared experiences with people as opposed to now it's like, you may have like these super fandom experiences, but it's with these people that may not necessarily be in your direct area, but you're all connecting online in this way that you may not have. [00:48:33] Larry Miller: Okay, good. I think we have time for, well, let's ask this question and see how we're doing for time. Go ahead. [00:48:39] Dan Runcie: Maybe you could do like a rapid round, we could get through. [00:48:41] Audience 5:  Just really quick then, what are your thoughts on like NYC Drill? I know artists like Dio Sama are huge. Just on the data side like TikTok and YouTube, so what are your thoughts on it? Sort of, cuz I'm a little skeptical on it going really mass. Like, cuz we're really super focused on NYC. Just how big can Drill really get?  [00:49:03] Dan Runcie: Well, I think we've seen, you know, the growth and exposure in the Midwest specifically. I think so you've definitely seen it there. I think you've seen artists kind of having their own moment, whether it's someone like Ice Spice, who I think has blown up pretty recently. But I also think that moments of it hurt, right? I think it really would've been cool to see someone like Pop Smoke be able to have the moment and the rise that I think he was going to have. But even that, I think it's kind of interesting the way you phrased the question, because I think even for something like Drill music, there's probably certain people that, like the concept of Drill music, don't like to reach them in the same way. But if you're in it, you probably already think that it's overexposed to some extent, which I think kind of speaks to this like broader dynamic that we're in, where if you're in something, it can feel like if you're in that niche and you're focus, and I know it may sound awkward to call Drill music niche in that way, but if you're in that group, then yeah, it can seem like, oh wow, this thing has been going on for a while, and now it feels like it's everywhere. But if you don't really tap into Drill like that, someone could be like, oh, what's this thing? So I think that's something I keep in mind with it as well. Like there's still so much more exposure out there. So I don't necessarily have those concerns for Drill music. If anything, I think we'll probably see other regions, especially in the US, continue to adopt it more the way that we've seen New York and the Midwest, specifically Chicago. [00:50:26] Larry Miller: Let's go to what I think is gonna be a final question. Go ahead. [00:50:30] Audience 6: Okay. I just had a question about your thoughts and involvement in like A.I involvement in the music industry. You know, just like in terms of the recording side.  perhaps may potentially be in the Live side of the music industry as well. I don't know if there's any applications for that? But just your thoughts on that. [00:50:48] Dan Runcie: I'll keep this quick. It's funny, I was talking to someone about this earlier today. A.I and anything based on like GPT Three in general is fascinating because I do think it can be addictive for artists, but I feel like I can already see the headaches that are there with so many things, right? Because if it's based off existing content, and of course those content owners are rightfully gonna have certain issues about who's basing these A.I lyrics or songs off of things. I do think, though, that for certain artists it can be fascinating. I don't think it'll get to the point where someone could have like a song that they actually wanna release at a top level that is created by A.I. At least not now. The technology isn't there, but could it help with an artist that is having writer's block about a particular thing? I think it was interesting. There's a conversation. Bruce Springsteen was on an Interview and he was saying how like for him with A.I. he's looking at it as something where, you know, he's like, I've had months where I just didn't write cuz I essentially had writer's block. I just couldn't think of something to be able to put out there. But could A.I. just help jog my memory and even as someone that I am not a songwriter or a musician, but as a writer, I've been seeing these tools and the things they can do, and just being able to plus, you know, sign and then them being able to generate some thoughts, or at least a potential outline of, okay, what could this topic look like? It does at least help jog the memory in the way that reading an article or something like that can be such a fascinating space. I know we're over time, but yeah. Fascinating space.  [00:52:31] Larry Miller: Thank you. We're gonna have to leave this here for now, but you can hang out for a while and chat with everybody as we run through the rest of our program and maybe even a little bit afterward. And so let's thank Dan for a really thoughtful discussion. [00:52:50] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. I had the pleasure of being the keynote speaker at New York University’s Annual Alumni Event for its music business department. Big thanks to Larry Miller, a professor and director of the program, for inviting me. 


It was a free-flowing conversation focused on how technology is reshaping the music industry from top-to-bottom. We’re well into the streaming era now, but some of the second-order effects are barely starting to ripple — particularly the oversaturation of content. It’s easier and cheaper than ever to release music, which explains how tens of thousands of new songs are uploaded to Spotify on a daily basis.


On one hand, this has ushered in a golden era of independent artists making a career without the backing of a label. On the other hand, value is increasingly accruing to the superstar artists. Most of these superstars were “grandfathered” into this new era as they were already household names before streaming took off. Reaching that same superstar status is harder and harder for new artists due to the industry’s oversaturation. 


Larry and I dove deeper into the issue during our conversation. Students also hit me with Q&A about burning topics such as ChatGPT, botted streaming numbers, and much more. Here’s what you can expect to hear on this episode: 


[2:02] Introduction from Larry Miller 

[5:09] Superstar artists like Taylor Swift and Drake shining brighter than ever

[10:22] Too many hits, not enough superstars

[17:23] How Curren$y “niched down” to break through

[24:18] Tradeoffs of going independent or the major label route

[26:47] Industry takeaways from Spotify and YouTube’s billions playlists

[30:32] YouTube’s competitive advantage over Spotify

[34:09] Evolving Trapital’s own business model

[39:43] Music’s bot problem in streaming and ticketing

[42:07] Is the music superstar dead?

[44:19] Picking a platform(s) as a new artist

[46:24] How oversaturated music landscape impacts listeners

[49:03] Is New York drill music the next wave?

[50:48] Pros and cons of AI music



Trapital’s first-ever Cultural Report for 2022: https://trapital.co/culture-report/



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

 

 

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

 

Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo.


TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Dan Runcie: Both Spotify and YouTube generated a tremendous amount of revenue for the music industry. I believe Spotify had last shared that they generated 7 billion for the industry. YouTube generates six or seven, I think it's 6 billion. The last thing that I had seen them put in. So that is a sign. Okay, great. You know, you tie that back into the numbers you shared before. You can do a little bit of backwards math to see how much of that is responsible for the overall industry with where it is now. So you see that, and then you also know that like anything else, the most popular songs drive most of that revenue. So you can kind of get a good idea to be like, okay, what are the songs that are driving? The music industry right now. 

[00:00:46] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Dan Ruey. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. 

[00:01:04] (Intro) Dan Runcie: This episode is a fun one. We're sharing the audio from a talk that I recently gave at NYU. I was the keynote speaker at an event there for several hundred alumni and students. For the music business program, it starts off with a 10 minute talk by me where I'm giving an overview on the lay of the land with where things lay right now with streaming and music and social media, and how artists are doing their best to navigate all of the noise that's happening right now. And then it pivots into a conversation. Which is a fireside chat with me and Larry Miller, who's the head of the music program at N Y U, and we talk even more about what certain artists are doing, right? We talked about Currensy, who I recently had on the podcast a couple months ago. We also talk a little bit about me and Trapital and building this and where I see things going in the future. Really fun conversation. I really enjoyed doing this event and I hope you enjoyed this. Here it goes. 

[00:02:02] Larry Miller: Dan Runcie is the founder of Trapital. Trapital has become an amazing media platform and the quality and amount of content, really insightful content that Dan cranks out as remarkable. It's just remarkable. What it's about is the people who are taking hip hop and culture to the next level. That includes the artists who are becoming moguls, leaders who are reaching new heights and fans inspired by hip hop's growing influence. Dan, when he'd school, and I suppose even, you know, business school. This media company Trapital, because he wanted to see a change. The hip hop execs that he looked up to were becoming really successful business leaders, but he felt that they rarely got the coverage that they deserved. And he wanted to do something about it. So he launched Trapital in March of 2018, and the business has grown ever since. Tens of thousands of influential people read Trapital's weekly memos and listen to the Trapital Podcast every week to stay ahead of the latest trends. Trapital's been featured pretty much everywhere. Places like The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, and the BBC and N P R,  C N B C and lots of other places are turning to Dan for insights on the business of hip hop. Dan's recent coverage has focused on lots of things. He's focused on the surprising differences between Spotify's and YouTube's. Billion stream playlists. Just looking at the ones that have done a billion on each platform. There are actually some pretty interesting differences between those two platforms. He's done significant work on how a venture capital fund from a 16 Z, Andreas and Horowitz invest money that is raised exclusively from black leaders in entertainment, sports, and business. He's done a report on the so-called decline in the influence of hip hop culture. He's done work on the future of ticketing. He's done a lot on DIY careers in hip hop, and done some really insightful reporting around Joe Kelli's amazing new book, Rap Capital, the Rise and Reign of Atlanta's hip hop culture, which if you haven't read it, get it. Dan got his MBA from a school in the Midwest, I think it's called Michigan, and he lives in San Francisco with his wife, and small child, daughter. Please give a warm NYU music biz welcome to Dan Runcie.

[00:05:09] Dan Runcie: Larry, thank you to the entire faculty, alumni for having me. It's an honor to be here. And I guess to start things off, because she's been brought up a few times, Taylor Swift has been a topic I know a lot of you thought about. So just outta curiosity, how many of you tried to buy Taylor Swift tickets this week? Okay, a few hands. Keep those hands up if you actually got Taylor Swift tickets this week. Okay? All right. Well, people will have to follow up with you all after to figure out exactly how you did that, but I think that's an interesting place to start with so much of what's happening right now in the music industry, because Ticketmaster, as most of you know, the whole entire app and the site crash because of the high demand. Ticketmaster put out this blog post and they said that they had five times the amount of hits compared to the Super Bowl, compared to other high days worth of events for this concert alone for Taylor Swift, and she's someone that's been on tour before. She's someone that has done plenty of things in music, but to see this kind of demand is pretty surprising. But she also broke a bunch of records with the album that she just put out a couple weeks ago, Midnights, and it's made me think about something we've talked a lot about recently, in Trapital. Something we've done a lot of research on. Right now there is so much music coming. I see, I think a few of you probably saw that music business Worldwide article, Spotify releases it. A hundred thousand songs a day get uploaded to that service. Most of those songs don't get listened to, to be clear, but a hundred thousand songs a day is still something else. And then as Larry had mentioned as well, Live Nation and a lot of these other event promoters and ticketing companies are having their biggest quarters and biggest years. And artists like Taylor are probably going to be having record years. And on the flip side, you also look at someone like Drake. Him and 21 Savage recently just put out their album, Her Loss. I think Drake gave one week's notice on this album, fourth highest streaming week that an album has ever had, which is pretty impressive. I know that Drake's a superstar, but still, even his past albums before this had plenty of buildup before where if you think about what he did with Scorpion or even the long buildup for an album like Certified Lover Boy. But the fact that Drake can announce on short notice is pretty surprising because if you think about where things are in music, you have more artists than ever that wanna tour. You have more artists than ever that are releasing music, but it's the superstar artists that are still the ones that people are gravitating more towards and they're the ones that are still getting most of the profits. But on the other side of the spectrum, things are getting a little bit tougher because Larry mentioned it a little bit earlier, but a lot of artists are struggling to make toward profitable, especially post pandemic the way that things are right now. Inflation costs are rising. It's costing so much more from freight costs to be able to travel with an entire production set from city to city, hotel airfare. So certain artists are selling out their tours or selling out their concert tickets, but they still aren't able to generate profit unless they increase the ticket prices. But even if you do that to a certain extent, the customers are going to push back. I'm sure a lot of people have seen all the complaints that people have had about how high the prices are, all these hidden fees. So there's a little bit of a squeeze there. And I think what we're seeing now is something that we've seen happen in the media, something that we've seen happen in music, but the fact that the barriers to entry have made music more easy to access, and now that we're in a post pandemic world, more people wanna be outside than ever. It's a lot of the artists at the top that are doing extremely well. But on the other side of the spectrum, while you do have some folks struggling, there are artists who are doing extremely well on the independent side of things. These are artists oftentimes that are owning their masters. These are artists that own their publishing rights as well. And because they've been able to keep a low cost and they've been able to essentially build from the ground up and continue to do it almost the way that a CEO in the music industry will be building up their business. They've been able to build pretty successful businesses too, in many ways. Leveraging the power of the internet because whether it's through SoundCloud or using YouTube or any of these other platforms, they can use their content or they can use their content to be able to drive awareness to their music. And then with that, they can then build up their audience and ultimately, Do that more successfully than they might have otherwise if they were to join one of the major record labels. So it's in this interesting piece because a lot of those artists feel like they have to make a decision, and Larry and I are gonna talk a little bit about one of them in a bit, but it's making artists, and I think many people in the music industry kind of pause because of the amount of content that's coming out, because of the amount of music that's coming out, it's a little bit harder to be able to pierce through. How many of you remember about a month ago, there was a billboard article that came out that said too many hits, not enough superstars, there was named something around that. Does that ring a bell? Okay. I've seen a few folks nod their heads there, and there were a few quotes in that article that stuck out to me because you had a lot of folks that are A & R or other executives in the industry that would say, we're doing all the things that they're telling us to do. We’re doing all the TikTok campaigns, we're doing the same press runs, we are creating the content, we're putting it out there. But even if we do all those things, We still can't guarantee that an artist that we think is going to be successful can get there, and that's because at the end of the day, the record labels and the artists themselves don't have control over the TikTok algorithms. They don't have control over the Instagram feeds to be able to tell what specifically is going to rise to the top and how you can break through another piece from that same article that stuck out to me. How many are you familiar with Steve? Okay. Pretty familiar. And it stuck out because there was a recent concert that he did and he was singing his song at the concert. The audience, the voices, got quiet once it got past that TikTok moment of the song. And if you're an artist, you're putting everything into your album. Of course you know that your fans are probably gonna sing harder to the hit songs under the singles. But because through the TikTok piece. I mean, it's just a reminder of how things are coming and where things are going. Even the concept of a one hit wonder I think has changed quite a bit because back when a lot of us probably were growing up, even if an artist was a one hit wonder, you still probably knew something about that artist. I mean, we can go back years ago, but even someone like Lou Bega who had that song, Mambo Number Five, or even someone like Trinidad James who had all gold everything, you still remember the videos, if you saw them walking down the street, you could probably recognize them. Or I've still been to, you know, a few events where I've seen some of these folks at. But now a one hit wonder could have just a song that you may hear a bit often, but you're recognizing it from some meme that someone else did on their TikTok video or someone else did. So you're engaging a bit more with the viral hit itself than the actual person that's making the music. So it's making things a lot tougher for a lot of artists who I think are the majority of them, wanna be successful, wanna be known and wanna get a few looks. But that middle ground of just wanting to be able to feel like you have that moderate place, you're kind of in the middle of the industry. It's getting a little bit harder to continue to have that being viable because now as I mentioned, you're starting to see a bit of this path where you have the superstars who are just getting more and more recognition as there's more and more options than ever. Or the independent artists who, even though the economics work in their favor, even though they may be able to do even better financially than some artists who may get more exposure than them, they may not be getting looked at the same, as some of their peers are. So it's a very interesting place for the industry. I think with that, it presents a ton of opportunity, but I also think that for certain artists, especially hip hop artists, there's a little bit of a mindset shift in terms of how am I releasing music? What is it that I wanna release? Because I think for a while it seemed like there was a blueprint that generally most people do. You put your music out, maybe you have a following on social media, you share that. You share a little bit of your personality. Hopefully a good manager can come to you if you find one or vice versa. If you do well, you're able to break through. Then maybe a major record label can find you. There was a bit of a general path, but now you're starting to see more and more of that split, and it's making artists in a lot of ways, think a bit sooner about what that decision is when you're still figuring out where it is and where you honestly wanna be. Do you wanna try to become the next Taylor Swift or the next Drake, or do you wanna try to do this a bit more yourself and have a bit more control over what you do? Because the thing is, even things like that, like becoming the next Drake or becoming the next Taylor Swift, have plenty of nuance part of other things that people have been talking about is how much harder it is for a newer artist to be able to hit the same levels. The fact that, you know, we're still referencing whether it's your Adele's or Beyonce's or Taylor Swifts, or Drake's, a lot of these artists have been famous years before TikTok was ever a thing. They still had a lot of that monocultural benefit of when they blew up, they were the thing, and they were able to benefit from that and have a lot of exposure. So now any of the platforms they had, it's all gravy. Now it's all added. They can use that to their advantage, but you are now trying to rise up and do that same thing, it's harder. Even someone like Olivia Rodrigo. Any fans of Olivia Rodrigo? So she is someone who I think Driver's License in a lot of ways for some people felt like the song blew up overnight and it did extremely successful, as did her album. But she was a Disney kid. She had been famous for years before leading up to that. So even that isn't quite at that same level. So it's a very interesting time in the industry. It's been a really great time to working the work we're doing at Trapital specifically to understand what this means. We're talking to a lot of different artists. We're talking to a lot of their managers, and really just making sure that we can share the best stories that we can about what's working, what's not, and highlighting those things. Cuz I think at the end of the day, you wanna find a way for artists to be successful. You wanna find a way for the people that are trying to build companies in the space to be successful, but it's very important to with the way things are trending right now, and a lot of people are saying, oh, it's oversaturated. Oh, we hope that we can eventually get back to a place that is less saturated. I don't think that's happening. The cat's out of the box at this point. If anything, there's gonna be more and more exposure more and more platforms. You look at how quickly TikTok grew to be a platform that has 1 billion monthly active users at this rate. There could be another platform that hasn't even grown yet that by 2026 could be that big. That's just how big things are from a connectivity perspective. So you never know what things could look like, but I think for where things are heading in the music industry there, it's a really fascinating time and even there's a lot of the established superstars that have done extremely well. There's still a ton of potential opportunity. I'll pause there cuz I know that Larry and I can talk a little bit more about that. But it is such a unique time and I think it's probably a good time for us to continue having the conversation because one of the people I do wanna talk to you about is Currency, who is an artist there. So we can do that in a moment, but yeah.

[00:17:23] Larry Miller: A New Orleans hip hop artist who's got a lot going, you guys know Currensy. Woo woo. So what's the deal and what made this especially noteworthy for you?

[00:17:36] Dan Runcie: So Currensy is someone who I had interviewed about a month ago and it was a pleasure to have him on as a guest on a podcast. I talked to him and his long-time business manager and partner Musa, and Currensy is someone who has been through each aspect of the music industry and I think in capsules a lot of what we've been talking about here. He first got exposure about 20 years ago. He was signed to Masterpiece No Limit label, and of course there's the whole New Orleans connection there. He ended up leaving New No Limit, and then he eventually signed on with Cash, Money and Young Money specifically under Lil Wayne. The thing is though, he actually ended up leaving cash money right around the 2007-2008 timeframe, which was a bit unique because that was the time that Drake and Nicki Minaj ended up joining them as well. And that label went on a pretty high trajectory after that. So some of the young money fans may often be like, oh, what could have happened? Right. But I actually think it was probably the best thing for Currensy because he realized that he was speaking to a slightly different audience, and specifically he knew that there were certain things that he was gonna be able to share with them that would resonate. That probably may not make sense trying to be on the next Lil Wayne mixtape or trying to be on the next Young Money collection or whatever it is. So he's been able to continue his career since, but he has a bit more of an interesting model where you see artists like him, NBA Young Boys, another one, but these artists are releasing albums every other month or releasing mixtapes every other month on streaming. And it's one of these things whenever people talk about that, it often becomes a bit of this question, where is this quality that's being put out? Or is this just quantity? And I think it's a very real thing. I mean, as someone that grew up enjoying a lot of music, even the artists that are successful now, from a personal fan perspective, you know? Yeah. It means something that, yes, you know, Beyonce drops Renaissance. We haven't heard her do a solo album since 2016, and she did one this summer. Okay. I'm listening. Same thing with Adele when she had hers, but I think that for Currensy, I'm not in, I may not be in that fan base demographic specifically, but the people that are following him on a regular basis love him. So he is focused on his true fans, he's found them. And by being able to do that, ultimately these people are gonna wanna hear from you on a more regular basis. Even if it isn't your best stuff, it's what they're gonna want to hear and it speaks to the flexibility that is offered now with streaming because before, just with how much it cost to release an album, yeah, it made perfect sense why you would wait and wanna save your best stuff for it. But if an artist wants to have the model where they wanna release frequency frequently and drop as often as they can, they can do that. And the platforms give them the flexibility. And someone like Currensy, the way he put it to me was, you know, there's certain artists that are gonna get 80 million streams a day. They're more popular than I am, but they don't drop as often as I do. And I'm gonna get my 80 million streams as well, even if I'm putting out much more music than they are. And for a lot of artists, they're still recording the same amount of music. They're just shit picking the best ones to pick for the album versus someone like Currensy's like, no, let me share most of it and share it with the fans. So it's very interesting to hear that. And then specifically since then, he's been able to take a lot of that money. He is solely focused, for the most part on tours. Really doesn't do too many festivals because he doesn't feel like that is where his true fans are. So leaning even more so into the true fan piece, been able to build up and create a few different nightclubs and places like that in New Orleans. He has an apparel company, Jet Life, so it's been a really interesting model for someone to leverage the tools that are available. And even though he may not speak to me or you specifically, he has his people. That to me shows the power of artists being able to focus on their niche and being able to build from there.

[00:21:38] Larry Miller: How broad do you think this, you know, phenomenon is? I mean, you made a point a couple of minutes ago that it's only gonna get bigger. There's only going to be more of this. And I think that the inference for the incumbents for, you know, the majors in particular is that they need to, you know, continue to, you know, innovate and unbundle the thing that they do and be really good and, and competitive at it. You know, the leverage seems to be moving overwhelmingly toward the side of the individual music creator. You seeing more of that?

[00:22:16] Dan Runcie: I think there's nuance there, and it's something I've thought a lot about because on one hand you do see the overall revenue share numbers, where the share of at least recorded music revenue from independent artists is continuing to grow, and I believe now it's over 30% and has continued to grow year over year, the past couple of years. On the other side of it though, if you're looking at the top artists on the Spotify charts or the top artists on any of these other charts, it's still mostly signed artists that are there. Those signed artists may not necessarily, let's see, be as many new names. Like it's gonna be harder for someone to dominate the entire list the way that Taylor or Drake do when they release an album. But most of the ones that are still there are still the signed folks. So I do feel like a lot of at least for the folks on the record label specifically and the people that are working there or the people that are working at publishing companies, they still are working with the majority of the most popular artists. I know there was a quote recently from Steven Cooper from Warner Music Group and he said, our record label is less dependent on superstars than it has been in the past. And I think there's a lot of truth to that just because you can see who's being signed to wear, you can see how many stars they've been able to develop ever since. And even though there may be less big names that they may have had. There's still a higher likelihood that a big name is gonna come from them than it would be from, you know, an independent group, from an independent artist. I would say, especially at the top level. Mm-hmm. I would say. Yeah.

[00:23:51] Larry Miller: Right. And so for an individual artist, they may need to go through a, you know, calculation that evolves over a period of time about whether they have the ambition. and the drive to become Drake or Taylor Swift, or if they can make, you know, just as much or maybe more on a probability adjusted basis doing it for themselves. 

[00:24:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I do think that. If you're an artist and you wanna shoot for the stars, I think that even though there's a ton more platforms and there's many other tools out there that are making it easier for you to own your masters and own the rights to everything that you have, even the artists that have ended their deals, they're much more likely to resign with the major record labels or resign with the publishing companies, but having you know better terms than they did before. You've seen that with the weekend, and you've seen that with a few of the artists, specifically, a lot of the ones signed to Republic Records, they've, you know, de-risk themselves essentially as assets so they're able to get better terms. And they may have gotten on that first deal many years ago, but I do think that that means a few things, right? That means that those artists themselves that are already established, they're more likely to wanna stay there. But I do think for the newer artists, there's still plenty of opportunity because there are still a number of companies that wanna be able to partner with them and help them build. Right. You were just referencing Downtown and one of their key tenants of their mission is, let's help you become a superstar where you can continue to own the assets that you have. And there's a tremendous team there that has a tremendous amount of backing and tools to be able to make that happen. So I think things like that are really, really interesting. I think we'll have to continue to see how it plays out to see if we can see someone that can continue to go that route without ever having to given it up. Cuz I think right now you've seen a lot of folks were traded in at least, you know, some ownership for their rights early on. But then once they got enough leverage, they were able to get them back, which I think is powerful and in their own right. But have we seen it the other way where they started off owning everything and they've continued to own throughout their career? I think naturally there's any type of trade off you have to do when you have a business partnership. So part of that comes with the territory. But with so much flexibility and so many more options, it's gonna be interesting to watch. And that's one thing I'm interested in.

[00:26:23] Larry Miller: You just mentioned the charts a minute ago, and I know that you just did a pretty deep dive on a comparison, of the billion stream or billion view charts that YouTube and Spotify separately came out with, that revealed some sort of interesting, you know, nuanced insights about what is similar but different about those platforms. What did you find? 

[00:26:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I guess first for a little bit of context there, one of the drivers for this analysis was because, both Spotify and YouTube generated a tremendous amount of revenue for the music industry. I believe Spotify had last shared that they generated 7 billion for the industry. YouTube generates six or seven, I think it's 6 billion. The last thing that I had seen them put in, so, that is a sign. Okay, great. You know, you tie that back into the numbers you shared before. You can do a little bit of backwards math to see how much of that is responsible for the overall industry with where it is now. So you see that, and then you also know that like anything else, the most popular songs drive most of that revenue. So you can kind of get a good idea to be like, okay, what are the songs that are driving The music industry right now, and if you're looking at those two platforms specifically, a lot of similarities because I think some songs are hits regardless of the platform, but a lot of differences too. I think there are a few things that stuck out. Spotify specifically is a bit more leaned, at least as of right now. It's a bit more skewed towards English speaking music. I think that's just given where it's got a lot of exposure. In the earlier years, Spotify, a Swedish company, had a lot of exposure specifically in Western Europe, and then we're seeing it now with a bit more of a saturated market now in North America, but YouTube has been much more international. As a, you know, result. And in many ways, as a compliment, it was a free service and a lot of times it was able to reach and help and make sure that people could upload and reach people all across the world. And I think with that, we've seen a lot more artists from Latin America that have been able to excel quite far on spot on YouTube's list specifically. And we may not see them as high on Spotify's list. So that's something that was definitely a bit unique. With Spotify specifically, it aligns a bit more towards radio hits in general because you think about music itself, it is a very flexible type of thing that people wanna consume. You can listen to something on Spotify while you're at a friend's party. You can listen to it while you're, you know, on, on yourself, demand. You're hearing music on the radio, the grocery store. There's so many ways where the same song can resonate in a way that watching the music video, it's a little. Right, like it's a much more active thing. You're gonna probably wanna sit here and have this more visual engagement and experience with it. So with that, it highlights a few things. One, YouTube is probably gonna be a bit more aligned to what someone may actively choose to wanna listen to. So there's some insights there. But YouTube's also a bit specific because. The platform is a bit more driven by memes and things like that, that probably just don't get as much notoriety or become as relevant as they would be on Spotify. Like for instance, are you all familiar with the song?, Nelly and Kelly Rowland, Dilemma. So there's this iconic scene in that music video where Kelly is texting someone and she's using Microsoft Excel to text the person . And it's bizarre because it's something that probably didn't get that much, you know, attention at the time it came out. But now that people can rewind and look at stuff, it's fascinating. So things like that, you know, just don't translate the same way.

[00:30:15] Larry Miller: What about the community building and just the community-esque  interaction that has been natively part of YouTube for really quite a long time now that is still kind of blacking at Spotify? Is that a factor?

[00:30:32] Dan Runcie: I think so. And I'm glad you brought that up because I think YouTube's power in a lot of ways is, you can look at the comment section of a lot of these songs, and it's almost like a trip down memory lane, especially for some of these songs that you may not have visited in a little bit of time. And artists can see the name of their fan, they can interact with them, they can find a way to be able to try to build a bit of a community there. You can't necessarily do that on the same platform on Spotify. I think in a lot of ways, Spotify and maybe some of the other digital streaming providers from a strategic perspective didn't necessarily give artists the option to be able to see who their fans were, because I think in some ways that data has so much value, right? Spotify may share it as a flex every now and then through Spotify wrapped and things like that, where you can be like, oh, I'm in the 0.4% of Travis Scott fans. You know, I guess I listen to, you know, whatever song too often. But besides that, you don't really have that. But think about the power that an artist could have if they could do that themselves on YouTube. Even though you don't get that data, you can still see some familiar people. You can, you know, find some way to connect or go off platform if you can. And that creates the ability to build a niche. And I think in some ways it helps you have the algorithm just work in your favor, right? Like I think YouTube just being based in general off of, you know, it's the second biggest search engine, so you're leveraging everything from Google's power to be able to help power that. It just helps you as an artist be able to connect directly.


So someone I mentioned earlier, NBA young boy. The way that he's used YouTube has been pretty fascinating because he releases his music first on that platform and he's someone that's releasing music every time. And the way that he's been so focused on it, it's almost similar to someone like, do you all know who Mr. Beast is? The YouTuber? Yeah. I heard a few laughs there, but it's almost a bit of a similar mentality to that where he understands that this is his audience. He sees what's working in the algorithm  may continue to serve them, and because of the success from YouTube, he's been able to translate that to other platforms. So I do think that that's a platform, and I think there's a few of them, but artists being able to find a platform that allows them to connect with fans, and especially if fans in their niche or in their base happen to be there. It can be really powerfu.

[00:33:04] Larry Miller: I want to remind you that we're gonna have a couple of minutes for questions from you and you know, please figure out what you'd like to ask Dan. And I'm not sure exactly where we're gonna have a mic set up, but I know it's gonna be somewhere. It's walking around the back of the room right now. But first I have another question. When we were talking earlier, we had talked a little bit about the shift in capital business model and that where you had started out as a subscription based business and now that it is, you know, entirely sponsorship driven and that one of the things that that has afforded you is the ability to help build deal flow as the result of the subject matter and the segment of the business that you're in as an angel investor. And I wonder if you can say more about that, about what your experience has been and what your aspirations are. 

[00:34:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, thanks for asking that for me. Going back a little bit. When I initially started Trapital, the thought was to have this as a paid subscription service model where I would have a free piece that went out every week, and then if you wanted to have additional pieces written, and it would be specifically for the people that were most interested, and it would be $10 a month or a hundred dollars a year, and I did that a little under a year and things were working and I mean, things were growing. I took a step back because I felt like what was most effective for me and what was most effective for the type of things I'm doing was I wanted as many people as possible to be able to be able to either read or listen to the stuff that we're sharing because I felt like this wasn't like I was writing about tech or finance where there were plenty of people that had been writing about this, but there was something that, you know, you were gonna get like a trade secret or some insights from me that you wouldn't necessarily get elsewhere like you had shared in the intro in the beginning. I largely wanted to start this to be able to elevate and hopefully change the discussion so that when people talk about whether it's the business leaders and the strategic moves that are happening, your names like your Rihannas and your Jay-Z's can be mentioned in, you know, in the same breaths as your Jack Dorsey's or your Jack Welch's or other people like that. There are successful people in this industry that are doing this, and being able to highlight that was effective. So the more that I could broaden who could have access to it and who could read it, the more that that would be possible. And I felt that there was opportunity from a sponsorship perspective, from other companies in this space, or even tangentially outside of the space that wanted to align with this type of content and the type of people that were reading it, that I knew that not only could it match the revenue that was coming in from the subscription, it could likely be even larger. And with that, the more people it reaches, the more that it helps everything else grow. And one of the things that it's afforded me is the ability to not just be able to, you know, write and share insights about the strategy of what's happening, not just from the artist level, but from the companies that are in the space and technology, where a lot of them started to reach out to me and wanted to get my advice on, hey, this is what we're building. What do you think of X, Y, and Z? But what that specifically offered then was leading to the next conversation where, hey, we're gonna be raising. And we would love to have you on as an investor specifically because we think you have the insights and we think that you could be a value add to what we're building. And you know, after I think, you know, a few of those conversations, that's where I say, you know, this is something that can be taken more seriously because the insights are here and the spaces here are obvious. And I think that it became more and more clear that I could use this as an opportunity to, you know, back and support a lot of the companies in the space, specifically the ones that were aligned with the way that I had seen clearly what was working and what wasn't. So it's afforded me the opportunity to make angel investments in several of these companies and something that I'll continue to do through the work that I do here. And I think having a podcast, having a newsletter has been a great way to do that. And ultimately just continuing to, not just me, but other folks on the team with their help as well, to make sure that the content and the insights that we're sharing is as helpful as possible. Cuz at the end of the day, this is research that we wanna be able to make it reach as many people as possible that are interested. And then with that, knowing that it's not just the content and the insights that are helpful, but actually being able to provide, you know, financial backing and support to the companies in this space that can help, you know, make it, you know, as strong as it can be, not just for them, but for the other companies. I mean, it's a space that has had so much innovation and I think one of the things that's been a bit frustrating to see at particular points is that a lot of the newer companies in this space have had a PR, and had a pattern of asking for forgiveness instead of permission from the music industry. Yeah. To be able to use the rights of a lot of the songs, to be able to have a lot of the partnerships that they should have in place. And it doesn't have to be that way. I think there are great people out there that are building companies the right way. They're having the conversations early on and being able to help be part of that movement has been really fascinating and inspiring to see as well.

[00:38:44] Larry Miller: Great. Thanks for sharing that, Dan. Let's go to your questions. I know that some of you have questions for Dan. If you do have one, there's an open mic in the middle of the floor and we'll give you a moment. Step right up. There is a questioner.

[00:39:00] Audience 1: Hey, how are you doing? I just have a quick question. I'm really curious on how you feel about just botting in the industry in general, because I feel like when you were talking about the YouTube charts compared to Spotify, there could be some discrepancies in the data just because it's a lot easier to bot on YouTube versus Spotify you can get flagged. So I'm just kind of curious to know what your thoughts are around those charts. You know how accurate the data is and also what you think about that in general. Because I feel like, especially in hip hop too, it's really prevalent and it's definitely a lot about getting the numbers and stuff like that. And a lot of my clients have, you know, similar thoughts about that. So I'm just curious to know what your thoughts are on the morality of that. Is it worth it? Is it not? All those things. So yeah. Thank you.

[00:39:43] Dan Runcie: Yep. Great question. I think I'll take it in two parts cuz I think there's issues with bots on streaming sites that are issues with bots on the ticketing side too. As you know, a lot of people have probably experienced it, but on the streaming side of it, it's something that I've looked at and thought it's frustrating and it's wrong because a lot of people are just gaming the system because I think that the technology has improved where a lot of things like streaming farms and things like that have been able to, it's become a little bit easier to be able to figure out like what to ignore, what not to include from a data perspective, where I think a lot of that's been ignored. But I think a few people, I don't know if anyone saw, but there was this video going around about how I don't know if it's true a hundred percent or not, but like Travis Scott's team, like gaming the system to be able to, you know what I'm referring to? Like, to be able to help boost the sales for Astro World. And it's one of these things where, okay, you could, if I'm taking a step back, directionally speaking, do I still think that he would've been as popular as he is without that happening? I still do. I mean, I think that there were so many things treading in that direction, but did that help? I'm sure it did. You know, so I still do think that it is something that is directionally, it can still give you a pretty clear idea over what's accurate and what's not. I think it's really hard to pierce through the top and be there consistently if it's purely driven by bots. But I do think that more likely than those things come to the surface in some way. Whether it's an artist that is streaming or they have tons of  social media followers, but then when it becomes time to try to sell a concert ticket, The tickets can't sell, and then that artist then has to downgrade a venue or they have to cancel the show because of things like that. These things always find a way to come to head. So I do think that in some cases, some type of retribution does often happen for artists specifically with streaming, just to get other questions in. I won't go into the ticketing piece of it. I think we all know how, you know, you know, horrible that that can be, but yeah.

[00:41:52] Larry Miller: Do we have another question? Oh, good. Hi. Welcome back.

[00:41:57] Audience 2: Who decided this way of asking questions? This is really weird. Hi Dan. Is the superstar dead? And if so, is that necessarily a bad thing? 

[00:42:07] Dan Runcie: Good question. I don't think superstars are dead, but I do think the definition of what we describe them as has shifted and it continues to shift over time. Right, because. Let's say we go back to the sixties or even, let's take a step back. Even if you go back to the nineties and say, okay, our superstar's dead. No one is as big as Beatlemania was before people would say, you're right. No one's as big as Beatlemania, but Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey are still very popular as our Boys 2 Men are whoever else. And I think that's kind of shifted now to someone being like, okay, well our superstar's dead. Can someone be as big as Beyonce? They may not necessarily be as big as Beyonce in that same type of way, but I mean, Billie Eilish had a pretty good year. I think even though I think she came out in the late 2010s, she still had her, you know, big moment 2019. I think we're also seeing, I think if anything, the biggest superstar potential now, just given the way that things have expanded, is on the international side too. You look at what Bad Bunny’s doing. I mean, that is a superstar at every definition. The fact that a non-US album or a non-English speaking album has been on the top of the billboard list for almost the entire year is incredible and the billboard is really just capturing what's happening in the US. So imagine if that was a worldwide list. So, yeah, so I think it shifts in that way where I think, you know, 20 years from now, people will be saying, oh, is so-and-so, you know, or a superstar's dead because no one will be as Bad Bunny be as big as Bad Bunny. So I think it continues to evolve.

[00:43:48] Larry Miller: Great. Hi, Max.

[00:43:50] Audience 3: Hi. How's it going everybody? First off, I just want to say, I can't believe you started this speaking about Currensy. I'm a huge fan of his and he has a lot of unique ways of releasing music. And so my question is, if you're a burgeoning new artist who's trying to get as many listens as possible, would you suggest trying to move forward in platforms that are really big right now? Or finding platforms that are emerging, trying to develop a fan base there where there's less competition?

[00:44:19] Dan Runcie: I think it's a mix, but I think, and maybe instead of the last piece of it in terms of finding platforms that are emerging, I think it's more so finding a platform that may seem less quote unquote sexy. But is that gonna be more so where your fans are where your folks like to be. Like for instance, I think a platform like Audio Mac has been doing pretty well over the past couple of years, and they may not get the same level of headlines that Spotify is, but if you are an artist that has a strong following in West Africa or in other parts of Africa, and you know that Audio Mac is one of the leading streaming platforms there. And then that's gonna work out tremendously in your advantage. And I don't know if I necessarily consider them like newer emerging, but I think it works out there. But on the other side of it too, still having exposure o on your Spotifys and your YouTubes and your Apple musics is still good as well because you want to, you don't know when that moment may be that you, for lack of a better word, like breakthrough and have that hit. And when you do, you wanna be able to still have something in those other places. Even if you had your home base on, you know, one of the platforms that may not get as much exposure but for the people you're trying to reach may be the best thing.

[00:45:38] Larry Miller: What do you got?

[00:45:40] Audience 4:  Hey. So, in a conversation of superstars, you know, you talked about the notion, the billboard, headline, you know, too many hits starting up superstars. The platformization of music where it is right now. Maybe it's a little bit harder for superstars to kind of come up and cut through the noise, but the potential, like you mentioned, to be a superstar is never any bigger in that sort of way. You mentioned the implications on, you know, from like the label side of things, from the other side of things a bit. In your opinion, what are the implications from a music consumption standpoint? You know, the average listener, people that listen to music in terms of the implications for music discovery, how music is in people's lifestyles and the way that it is now with platforms and just the superstar conversation as a whole?

[00:46:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I thought about this a few ways because I think that one of the things that we're missing a bit because of the way things are now, is that someone can have a song that is topping the charts, but it's not the way that it was maybe like 10, 20 years ago where, oh, if the song is the number one song in the country, oh, like I heard it on the way to the grocery store and then I heard it on the radio and then my friend was probably playing it when I went over their house in the afternoon. No, it's more likely to be that the super fans of this song have been like, you know, streaming the hell out of it and they just have been going nonstop and I may not even know who that person is. So a bit of that water aspect isn't necessarily there as much from a fan perspective. I think the other piece of it is the algorithm of the streaming services double down on this more because at least when I log into Spotify or if I log into one of the streaming services, I'm more likely to see the songs that I've been listening to before. I'm more likely to get some type of daily mix that is based on what I've been listening to before. It's harder for me to be able to see. If I actually wanna see, okay, what are the new top hits? Like I have to search for that to some extent and go out of the algorithmic feed. That's already been tailored to me. So I think it makes it harder for me to go search for those things. And in some ways, the platforms kind of design it that way because they're like, okay, if they know that I am Rihanna fan. They're more likely to want to share with me more Rihanna songs I haven't listened to than assuming that I'm gonna like whoever may be the rising artist right now. So I think it makes it tougher from that perspective. And I think a bit of that shared community isn't, isn't there as much. So I think from a fan perspective, I've kind of had a bit of a double-edged sword because while I think part of what attracted me to so much music and memories is being able to have those shared experiences with people as opposed to now it's like, you may have like these super fandom experiences, but it's with these people that may not necessarily be in your direct area, but you're all connecting online in this way that you may not have.

[00:48:33] Larry Miller: Okay, good. I think we have time for, well, let's ask this question and see how we're doing for time. Go ahead.

[00:48:39] Dan Runcie: Maybe you could do like a rapid round, we could get through.

[00:48:41] Audience 5:  Just really quick then, what are your thoughts on like NYC Drill? I know artists like Dio Sama are huge. Just on the data side like TikTok and YouTube, so what are your thoughts on it? Sort of, cuz I'm a little skeptical on it going really mass. Like, cuz we're really super focused on NYC. Just how big can Drill really get? 

[00:49:03] Dan Runcie: Well, I think we've seen, you know, the growth and exposure in the Midwest specifically. I think so you've definitely seen it there. I think you've seen artists kind of having their own moment, whether it's someone like Ice Spice, who I think has blown up pretty recently. But I also think that moments of it hurt, right? I think it really would've been cool to see someone like Pop Smoke be able to have the moment and the rise that I think he was going to have. But even that, I think it's kind of interesting the way you phrased the question, because I think even for something like Drill music, there's probably certain people that, like the concept of Drill music, don't like to reach them in the same way. But if you're in it, you probably already think that it's overexposed to some extent, which I think kind of speaks to this like broader dynamic that we're in, where if you're in something, it can feel like if you're in that niche and you're focus, and I know it may sound awkward to call Drill music niche in that way, but if you're in that group, then yeah, it can seem like, oh wow, this thing has been going on for a while, and now it feels like it's everywhere. But if you don't really tap into Drill like that, someone could be like, oh, what's this thing? So I think that's something I keep in mind with it as well. Like there's still so much more exposure out there. So I don't necessarily have those concerns for Drill music. If anything, I think we'll probably see other regions, especially in the US, continue to adopt it more the way that we've seen New York and the Midwest, specifically Chicago.

[00:50:26] Larry Miller: Let's go to what I think is gonna be a final question. Go ahead.

[00:50:30] Audience 6: Okay. I just had a question about your thoughts and involvement in like A.I involvement in the music industry. You know, just like in terms of the recording side.  perhaps may potentially be in the Live side of the music industry as well. I don't know if there's any applications for that? But just your thoughts on that.

[00:50:48] Dan Runcie: I'll keep this quick. It's funny, I was talking to someone about this earlier today. A.I and anything based on like GPT Three in general is fascinating because I do think it can be addictive for artists, but I feel like I can already see the headaches that are there with so many things, right? Because if it's based off existing content, and of course those content owners are rightfully gonna have certain issues about who's basing these A.I lyrics or songs off of things. I do think, though, that for certain artists it can be fascinating. I don't think it'll get to the point where someone could have like a song that they actually wanna release at a top level that is created by A.I. At least not now. The technology isn't there, but could it help with an artist that is having writer's block about a particular thing? I think it was interesting. There's a conversation. Bruce Springsteen was on an Interview and he was saying how like for him with A.I. he's looking at it as something where, you know, he's like, I've had months where I just didn't write cuz I essentially had writer's block. I just couldn't think of something to be able to put out there. But could A.I. just help jog my memory and even as someone that I am not a songwriter or a musician, but as a writer, I've been seeing these tools and the things they can do, and just being able to plus, you know, sign and then them being able to generate some thoughts, or at least a potential outline of, okay, what could this topic look like? It does at least help jog the memory in the way that reading an article or something like that can be such a fascinating space. I know we're over time, but yeah. Fascinating space. 

[00:52:31] Larry Miller: Thank you. We're gonna have to leave this here for now, but you can hang out for a while and chat with everybody as we run through the rest of our program and maybe even a little bit afterward. And so let's thank Dan for a really thoughtful discussion.

[00:52:50] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how capital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 3205 no Trapital Mailbag: A.I. in Music, Future of NFTs, Hip-Hop Globalization, and More! https://www.trapital.com/podcast I’m digging into the mailbag for today’s episode. For the first time in over a year, I asked Trapital listeners and readers to send me their most burning questions about the music industry. I’ve pulled out nine questions from the bunch to cover on the show.  We’re covering everything from NFTs to artificial-intelligence-assisted music creation to investing in music catalogs going forward and a whole lot more. I’m hitting you with my honest thoughts on each. Here’s a look at the topics: [0:54] State of music NFTs  [4:40] Customer problems as a music startup [8:35] Lack of new music superstars  [12:07] Future of AI-assisted music creation  [17:00] Tradeoff for artists wanting ownership  [22:11] Hasbro selling eOne [26:16] Music catalog investing in 2023 [29:41] Globalization of hip-hop  [33:21] Emerging artists as startup founders  Trapital’s first-ever Cultural Report for 2022: https://trapital.co/culture-report/ Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Check out The Drop, REVOLT's weekly newsletter to stay ahead of the latest news in hip-hop and Black culture. To learn more, visit revolt.tv   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Dan Runcie: If you're an owner of I.P., often times that I.P. may be the most valuable thing that you have. But does it always make sense for you to then be the ones that produce it? Of course, there's unique examples of this, right? I think Disney is a company that clearly does both, but Disney is such a unicorn in what it does in so many ways, and we've all seen that flywheel of what they've done, and that flywheel is so relevant because it's hard to see another company that could really do that to that level. But it's more likely than not that if you are an I.P. owner or it's probably in your best financial interest to partner with a company that you can leverage their production because they are skilled at being a production company to do that thing. [00:00:46] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  [00:01:04] (Intro) Dan Runcie: From you, the listeners who make Trapital, exactly what it is. So this is a mailbag question where you all sent in your best questions. Some of you emailed them, some of you posted them on socials, but I looked at the questions and picked the best ones, and this is a mailbag episode. It's been a while since we did one of these, so it felt good to do one. I actually wanna do these more often just because I think the questions were really great and we're able to address a bunch of topics that we'll get into A.I, the future of music, globalization, ownership, and all the topics that we love to break down on capital and a few ones. So let's jump in. [00:01:41] (Pre Roll Ad Moonpay)  [00:02:11] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have our one and only Mailbag episode from Trapital. It's been a while since we did one of these. I feel, maybe at some point earlier this year we did a mailbag, so it was finally good to dig back in, hear from folks and be able to answer the questions that a lot of you have been thinking. This podcast has grown quite a bit this past year and was in the 1% for the most shared podcast according to Spotify wrap, so that was pretty good. Some applause for that. And I wanted to bring in some of the questions from some of the avid listeners and readers we have. So I posted in social media, posted in the newsletter, and this is a roundup of the best ones. Covered a bunch of topics. We're gonna talk about the future of A.I and music, the state of NFTs, globalization, ownership, and a whole lot more. So let's dive into the first question we have here. So, Ken Penn wants to know what is the current state of music NFTs and our major labels as interested in them as they were? So first for some clear context, a lot of people have been asking questions about this because the general trends of N F T discussions from last year to this year is not quite what you would expect. A lot of people saw that Bloomberg report that came out earlier in 2022, I think they said, N F T transactions were down 97% from the peak that they were at in 2021. And if you type in the word NFTs in Google Trends, you'll probably see a slope that looks quite downward. That is very true, and that's clearly where that is. But I think there's a big difference between that, which I think 97% of that was the hype and a lot of the crap that you likely would only see at the height of the pandemic when money was flowing like crazy. Think about the time when like Pet rocks were being sold and Logan Paul was buying his NFTs or trying to sell his NFTs for whatever. If that was the top of the market, then I think we're seeing things level off a bit more now because you are still seeing partnerships from the major labels and from a lot of artists. I look at Warner Music Group. Warner's been active, more active than any other major label, I think, when it comes to active investments and being forward-looking and being public about those investments. And it was just six, seven weeks ago that they had formed a partnership with Open Sea, which is one of the largest platforms out there to be able to trade in as a marketplace to be able to buy and sell NFTs. So you also have other deals that we've seen. Universal Music Group recently hired two SVPs that are focused on web three with a pretty strong focus on NFTs themselves. And more broadly, you have companies like Public Pressure that just raised $6 million to continue to build in this space. I have said this a few times in this podcast, but I think that Web three and NFT specifically, you had to get through the.com era. You had to get through that heads.com phase of people just starting shit because it sounded like it was something that was gonna resonate, but after a lot of that didn't work out. You obviously had the.com bubble burst. That era still gave us Google, it still gave us Amazon and all these other companies that have still continued to be successful and be some of the biggest companies in the world today. And I think there was a very strong chance that we will still have that with this current wave. It may look slightly different in music, but I still think that we're gonna see, and we have seen more of the true opportunities, whether it's on the artist side of artists that are selling actual NFTs that their fans would find valuable and that others will wanna buy into as well. And I think you'll see this on the major label side with more investment going into acts that can actually reap the rewards from it. One of the biggest deals of 2022 when it comes to N F T sales was Snoop. and what he was able to do, just capturing that momentum. After the Super Bowl. We wrote, or I covered a lot of this in the culture report that Trapital put out will include a link to it in the show notes if you haven't checked it out yet, but still a lot of upside on NFTs. I do not see it quite as much as the bubble that I think was clearly there in 2021. A lot of that quarantine rapid growth needed to calm back down a bit, and I think NFTs are one of the areas that were hit a lot harder than others, but I still think that there's plenty of upside for people that actually wanna build and don't just wanna do grifter, whatever the hell else people were trying to buy itself time. Another question here is from David from Santa Monica, and this was actually a reply to a newsletter that I recently put out where I was talking about some of the cost challenges that music startups and music tech companies will face as in regards to working with customers and customer service and working and dealing with unprofitable customers and wanting to move further up. Mark's question was whether or not I had any data on the customer service costs that these companies have. And I wanna answer that question in a slightly different way. It's less about customer service in the same way that you know, you or I may go call Comcast or may call Xfinity when we're having an issue with our cable or our internet, but it's more so you are a client or customer that is trying to use this particular service, whether it's free or you're relying on it to grow your own business, and you are now having some challenges, you're having some type of question. The thing is a lot of the companies, especially a lot of the distribution platforms, started off being available to everyone, but I think they realized how expensive it is to serve the clients and to serve the customers who are not driving the most business possible. It's no different than a lot of people see when they're working with client services. Overall, your $2 million clients in a lot of ways can be so much more enjoyable to deal with and work with than your $2,000 clients or $2,000 clients will chat a nickel and a dime. They have a bunch of questions about this, that, and the third, but your clients that have a bit more money, they normally come in a bit more clear and confident with what they're looking for, and it can lead to better business in the long run. And I think to a lot of extent, the same is true with a lot of the artists that you end up serving or a lot of the customers that a lot of these platforms end up serving because a lot of their time gets spent with customers that just don't justify the ROI of how much it costs to have that person on staff continue to work and continue to coach and work directly with someone who's just not generating enough revenue to be able to justify the spend. And if you think about how a lot of the companies focus on these things, especially if you're being built out like a tech customer success. This is a role where whether even at the high individual contributor, or the middle level manager role, you're talking, you know, $150, $200,000 plus for someone that can do that roll on annual basis. I mean, I'm thinking of myself, it was six years ago at this point, I was offered a customer success role from a startup that has, you know, now been acquired. I believe the offer was right around that $150, or maybe it was a little bit more than that K range. And that's how much you're paying to have one person that is dedicated to not just you, but to other clients. But if you were to fractionize my time, let's say that, you know, I was someone that was making $160k a year and I had 12 to 16 clients per year that I was serving, you have to justify, okay, is it worth $10k of the company's time to be able to continue to serve this person if that's what I'm spending my timeline, and we all know that it's less likely that it's gonna be an even split. So that's where these things I think, can often come into play, which is why I think you've seen a lot of the distribution services and a lot of the others start to be more selective over time. And they start to have cut-offs in terms of who they're willing to serve and who they're not willing to serve. And that's one of the reasons why I think we see that shift where, especially in music distribution, it ends up leaning itself towards just having a low cost option, like Distrokid or a tunecore where it essentially doesn't cost much at all to upload the services, but it's a bit more do it yourself or you get something that is a bit more boutique. But by being able to join the boutique offering, it's much more selective as a result. So the next question here is from Arthur from Twitter. He didn't specifically say his name, but it was a good question here. He asked, who gets more blame for the lack of consistent superstar X, labels or customers? The answer is neither. The answer is technology. If you're trying to blame anyone, I personally don't call it blame. I more so call it the driving factor, but this is more about technology. Technology was the driving force that lowered the barriers to entry for artists to be able to create more music than they've ever created, and to be able to release it the way that they've done it. And because they're releasing music the way that they've done it, it then becomes harder and much more noisier for new artists to be able to enter the scene and be able to hit the same heights that they did. And because of the increased number of options that are there, it makes it even easier for powers that be to continue to invest more in what they already see proven. Whether that is your superstar artist or ones who have already proven themselves that seem like they'd be most likely to be the next next bets, whether that's your Taylor Swift or your Adele, or your Beyonce on the proven side or on the artist coming up, whether it's someone like, Olivia Rodrigo, or like Blast, or Billie Eilish or someone like that. So these things that are, I think, a big factor just based on where things are and barriers continuing to be lower and lower. And there's been countless reports on just how difficult it is and how record labels are starting to feel like it's having a harder time to break new stars in the way that they once did. It's harder to have new superstars reach the levels that they did. I think you see this in some of the analysis that's been done on charts and stuff like that too. It's a lot of the same names that have been household names for over a decade that are continuing to stay there and it's harder for the new artists to really come through. So I guess if there's anyone to blame for that, we can blame the founders and the product managers from the companies that enabled the barriers actually to happen in the first place. I know a lot of people disagree. I do think it's a good thing that people have more options than ever just in terms of the artist's perspective, but just because I think that it brought a lot of flexibility. But with that, there's always trade-offs like any new technology brings. There's good with that. There's bad that comes with that. I do think that the pros and the cons outweigh them. I do think that the pros do outweigh the cons with that, but still very aware of the downsides of the current timing. This next question is from Joe Edwards and he asked, what is the ultimate potential of GPT-3? This is a hot topic right now, I think for a lot of folks, and it's a question that I think everyone from record labels to attorneys, to emerging artists are trying to figure out, but here's my perspective. I think that GPT-3 is a great tool that will be able to give songwriters an extra tool that they can have by their side. I think we recently heard Bruce Springsteen on a podcast talk about how he could use A.I., whether it's something like something that can help jog his memory or jog his thoughts, specifically if he's having a better writer's block and how difficult that can be for a songwriter. You just wanna be able to have a few things that can aid your process of bringing thoughts together. The pen that comes from that would ever truly replicate something that Bruce Springsteen would wanna put out himself. But just give it how advanced these tools get and how better and better they get. It's likely gonna provide some inspiration that can be helpful. That said, I think it would be more helpful to help existing artists, and I'm a bit less bullish right now on new artists coming up. I think we all saw what happened with Capitol Records and FN Meka and that whole mess, while I don't think that that's all A.I. driven, part of that's driven by the people that were running it. I do think that that is an inherent challenge that some people may be a bit weary of, at least for now. But one place that I do think A.I. and GPT-3 specifically could be unique for is for giving certain artists or certain people the ability to access a sound catalog or an ability to access a group of songs that they can use to then scour to figure out what they can then glean from that to be able to create the new songs that are able to create lyrics that they could use in the future. The reason I highlight this is because I'm sure if you're trying to use a song that is based on a song that is owned by a major record label, the record labels and their lawyers will come after you, and it is something that I know that is already top of mind for. But there's a lot of music out there, a lot of music that people would want to hear that isn't owned or controlled by the major record labels. And I think in the same way that you saw platforms like Epidemic Sound or Splice and others be able to create, whether it's monthly subscriptions or other types of opportunities to buy access to a right to use any of the songs in the catalog. I think you could see something very similar to that happening with A.I. and GPT-3 specifically, because yes, if GPT-3 tries to scour all of the songs available, that is a legal nightmare. But if you're an artist and you wanna be able to pay $10.99 a month or whatever it is, to be able to access this tool where you could type. Any prompt that could help spur your thought, that could be a very great use of $10.99, especially if that gives you the ability to make the next album from your bedroom that could be nominated and win a bunch of Grammys or sell, or, you know, do a bunch of commercial success or just have enough success for you to be a standalone successful musician in your own right. Because I do think a lot of those things are likely to appeal more so to independent artists. I also think that we'll see some potential with GPT-3 with an artist that breaks out on TikTok in general, I almost feel like it's inevitable that there's gonna be some artist in 2023 that has some song that goes viral on TikTok, and people are gonna be like, oh, where did the idea for the song come come from? And the artist is gonna say, oh, I just typed in a prompt. Write me a song about X, Y, Z. And here's what came up. Because we already started to see little hints of how artists would use name generation or using tools to come up with things, right? You've all heard the story about how Lil Nas X used insights from Reddit and insights from Twitter to create Old Town Road and how he essentially engineered that song to reach a type of success that it did grant. A lot of that was outside of his influence, just given things going viral after the whole country music controversy. But a lot of the things leading up to that point were influenced by him. And I think even on a more simpler side, artists like Childish Gambino and Post Malone, I'm pretty sure that both of them got their names from some random computer generators. So there's been things like that that we've seen and I think we'll continue to see more of that. And I think even the answer to this question is gonna continue to evolve. So you could ask me this question in a year. I think I could probably have this as an end of the year podcast question for some time now. And their law used to be something new to glean. The next question here is from Mercedes G. She wants to know why don't artists prioritize ownership even though artists have been pushing ownership for decades? So this question is a bit nuanced because I do think that there are a lot of artists out there that do push ownership, and they are clear that they wanna be able to own their masters and own their publishing and understand the value. I think the challenge comes though, when it becomes a trade off and that trade off is likely offering the artist something that they couldn't have otherwise had because owning your masters and owning all those things sounds great and it sounds great if we assume that the artist could have reached the same heights that they could without giving up something in exchange. The thing is, when an artist is starting to pop and they are already experiencing what some of the challenges are, being able to really hit that next level and whether that is something that they want to do because of some of the things I answered with earlier questions. With more and more music coming out, it's harder for everyone to break out. It's especially harder for artists that are already signed to two record labels to break through. That means it's gonna be even hard for an artist that doesn't have the major label resources behind them to break out as well, which could make them even more likely to wanna then sign with the major record label, especially if they are cutting you a check. I'll look at a few examples of younger artists as well. Look at an artist like Lil Dirk or even NBA Young Boy, I'm pretty sure little Dirk. Posted that he had gotten a 40 million deal recently this year. And I think Dirk is someone that has been popular. I mean, it's several years ago at this point that he was on double XLS freshman list, but even as an independent artist, it could have taken him quite a bit of time to ever hit that amount of money, especially if he's trying to cash it in on the moment that he has. So it's one thing to push ownership and it's another thing to still be able to say, you know what, no, I'm good. I don't want that check. Let me continue to do what I'm doing. When someone offers you an eight figure check that's right in front of you. And I think there's a bit of that human element that can sometimes get a bit lost cuz it's easy for the people in the pita gallery playing Monday morning quarterback to go say, oh, why would you do that deal? Or us to focus on some of the survivorship stories of Master P turning down a million dollar record label deal. Different people that may have offered it to him. Because for every success story like Master P, there are other people that turned those same type of deals down but it didn't take off the way it did for P and then they go back to the record label and being like, oh, hey, could I still get that deal? And the record label's like, no, like the moment passed and the only reason you're coming to me is because you don't feel like you have the momentum that you had before. So there's a few factors here that I think are important to consider, and there is that human element that I think just changes. It's one thing to be a Twitter pundit and put your thoughts out there, but it's another thing to really still say no when a company that you know, they're rolling out the red carpet for you their show, they're presenting the seven, eight figure check, whatever it is, and then you still saying, no, I'm good. And then I think you even see us at the highest levels as well. You look at the deals that you know, someone like Drake or the weekend, you're more so hitting now into the nine figure deals and these artists are more likely to be able to continue to have ownership, but they're still licensing their masters or licensing their music out to the major company. So there's still some trade off there. It's very rare that you ever are really seeing superstar artists that still are hitting those superstar artists levels that is like, you know what? I'm good. Let me just go release everything independently. Cause I think at the end of the day, if you are a priority on these labels, and if you are still getting the best that you can get, you're more likely to figure out, okay, what trade-off is commensurate at what level? And that doesn't mean there wasn't a better way that could be done optimally. My explanation here is more of an explanation of the entire landscape of less of an advocacy for one position or another. But I do think in general, just given how much harder it is for record labels to be able to truly, I think, focus and invest on that artist development piece because they're expecting artists to come to them when they've already hit zero to 60. I think it really puts the onus on the artist to be like, okay, are you happy at 60? Because if you're happy at 60, you may not need the record label, and maybe you think you could get to 70 or 80 yourself, but it may take some time. But if you're trying to get to a hundred, it's gonna be really hard for you to do that independently. So a lot of it requires some questioning on where you wanna go, how far you wanna go, and why that may or may not be as important to you.  [00:22:52] (Mid Ad): Today's episode of The Trapital Podcast was brought to you by Revolt. Revolt is on a mission to curate and share the best of the best in hip hop culture and social justice. You may remember a couple months back I had the CEO of Revolt, Detavio Samuels on the podcast scene. He talked all about the mission and where things are going, and I think this is one leading company that is elevating what's happening in black culture. It was launched by Sean Diddy Combs back in 2013, and the multi-platform Network offers breaking news videos, artist interviews, exclusive performances, and original programming. They have content for everyone, like Asset over liabilities and original podcast with the host of Earn Your Leisure that gives you a behind the scenes look into the business investments of artists like Soulja Boy and Rick Ross. They also have the Drop Revolts weekly newsletter and curation of the latest in hip hop and black news, and they have the black print where sits down with innovators and change makers laying the ground up for the next generation for the culture. You can learn more and sign up for Revolt's newsletter, the drop@revolt.tv. [00:24:00] Dan Runcie: All right, this next question here is about a specific deal that's going on, but it's gonna be a good one to answer. JB from Atlanta asked, now that Hasbro has sold E-One's TV and film division, could quality control be a potential buyer? So a few things to unpack here. Earlier in November, Hasbro announced that it will be selling its TV and filled divisions of the comp company. Note that this news, three years after Hasbro had initially acquired all of Entertainment One, which included its music division. And then I think it's been about a year now. My time may be off, but it's been about a year plus now that it had rolled off its music division, which then became Monarch, which is run by Chris Taylor and that team. You may remember them because they were the team that was involved with the selling and the acquisition of Death Row records and then that deal with Snoop Dog. But Hasbro overall has kind of been in this, oops, maybe we should have done this deal when they went and bought E-One. And I think the big takeaway away for Hasbro has been that if we want to leverage the IP that we have, and as many of you know, Hasbro toy companies, so it has the IP there, but it also has some brands that were in that production, like Peppa Pig and things like that. They can still own the IP, but they don't have to own the in-house production to be able to then leverage that IP and make it happen, and then when you own those divisions, it just can be so costly to try to do that. So they got a lot of pressure from Wall Street and other analysts to sell that division and focus on what they do. If you're an owner of an IP, Oftentimes that IP may be the most valuable thing that you then have, but does it always make sense for you to then be the ones that produce it? Of course, there's unique examples of this, right? I think Disney is a company that clearly does both, but Disney is such a unicorn in what it does in so many ways, and we've all seen that flywheel what they've done, and that flywheel is so relevant because it's hard to see another company that could really do that to that level. But it's more likely than not that if you are an IP owner or it's probably in your best financial interest to partner with a company that you can leverage through their production because they are skilled at being a production company to do that thing. So that was a lot of the reason why that sale happened in the first place. Now let's talk about the QC part of this. I would be very surprised if Quality Control was to go on and buy a TV and film division because I also look at Quality Control as an IP. I mean just given the ownership structure, they may joint own some of that with Motown, give the joint venture there. But they are IP owners that can then use that to leverage, whether it's the brand or the story of your little baby Migos and even the rise of coach K and P and and things like that. And while QC does do investments, like I know they're involved with SoundCloud and they have a few other things going. I would be very surprised if they went on to acquire a type of, you know, studio themselves. I know that QC does have a film division, but my impression of that has always been more so, yeah, let's stay quiet, let's have that something that we could have that small and manageable in-house, but if they still have a big release, I think they would probably wanna go to shop that and market the same way that any other big time producer would want if they wanted to push something further. No different than, I think you kind of saw with the Little baby documentary that eventually went on, Amazon was released on Amazon Prime a couple of months ago. So I would be surprised there, if anything, I mean, I think QC is one of these record labels that may be looking for an outside investor itself, but I'm not quite sure what the Motown relationship, just given the joint venture ownership there and how that may look, whether or not who the actual company is that owns, whether it's the brand or the artist or anything like that. Moving forward from that. All right. Couple more questions here. So is music investing specifically, like in catalogs, is music investing still a good idea in 2023? And my answer is yes, but not in some of those 2021 pandemic era evaluations. And that's because I think what I liked about the catalog boom is that it brought awareness to something that I think a retail investors in the niche knew, but a lot of others weren't focusing on, is that there's a lot of value to be had with owning some of these catalogs because there's certain artists that I think do have the potential to just feel similar to a evergreen stock or something like that continues. Provide consistent revenue that isn't correlated with the economy time and time again. But I think there's a few things that happened that people may have missed. One, there is a decay curve with all of those assets. And even as much as people wanna tell you that the Beach Boys or Michael Jackson or the Beatles are timeless, everything has a decay curve. I mean, you could even go back, you know, decades, even. Frank Sinatra or Elvis. I know that you know that the movie that came out recently, but even folks like that, the discussions that are happening now about those people aren't anywhere near the type of discussions that you may have heard, at least when I was growing up, and that just shows you how much has changed in several decades since then. So, and I think the music listening would've probably aligned with that as well. So there's that, and I just think that the valuations that were being paid for a lot of these things probably just wouldn't happen again. One, because interest rates are nowhere near as low as they were, but I think even regardless of interest rates, there was a lot of overpaying for those assets just given the excitement. So smart on a lot of the artists for cashing out when they did and getting a lot of those returns because at least from what we've seen from a lot of the reports, You've seen some of these financial time stories talking about Hypnosis. And Hypnosis has at least from what the returns have been from their catalog has not been able to generate returns that a lot of the investors feel satisfied with and feel are in line with what they had, which is why I think you started to see more challenges there. There was almost an entire year period where the company didn't make an investment, and I think you've seen a lot of things ring true for others. There are still catalog sales happening. It just may not happen at the particular dollar amount that people wanted. For instance, there was Pink Floyd deal that was being talked about for a while. It's still being talked about. I believe they wanted $500 million, but based on some of the recent findings that had come out, the offers that they started to get were much smaller than they would've liked. So people are still interested in buying Pink Floyd. It may not be for the amount of money that the rights holders wanna sell it for, but there's still interest there, and I think that rings true all the way up and down the board. Listen, it wasn't even just music investing. The quarantine era of the pandemic led to a lot of sales for things happening that just probably wouldn't happen in the same way today. All right. Another question here is how does the globalization of hip hop Influence its business and cultural impact? And this question came from chat GPT. Someone had submitted this question and then it came back as, oh, what do you think is a good question to ask about the business of music or the business of hip hop? So this is a fun one. I know I've written about it a few times, but for the sake of brevity, I'll tackle it in two ways. First, A lot of the Western hip hop artists were able to reach a much bigger audience as a result of globalization, and I think it made it easier for some of them to launch global brands as a result. I look at folks like Rihanna and folks like Jay-Z. Look at some of the deals they've done with, whether it's ACE of Spades for Jay-Z, or the Fenty partnerships with Rihanna. These partnerships are tied in with European companies and there has to be some relevance for how big you are seen in Europe and other areas for those things to really have an impact. And I think you saw that compound as well. When you look at someone like Rihanna and Fenty Beauty, being able to enter Africa and just given the ethos of that brand being able to be inclusive and have shades for all skin tones, it makes perfect sense to be able to do it in Africa, which you just think about the beauty industry. This is an entire continent of people, especially women. Different complexion and skin tones that were largely overlooked by the many other major brands. So being able to have that influence there directly ties into an artist like Rihanna, you know, years, decades earlier, being able to tour in these places and being able to have her name out there, being able to be seen in that way. So I think it affects it from that perspective. And of course, Jay-Z, Rihanna are more so people at the top of that chain that are billionaires, but I think it really made a large impact on everyone else on the other side, I think it's made a huge impact on international artists too, because we've seen in so many other places that hip hop has truly been that connective tissue. It's really been that gateway that can help. Raise and elevate the voice of the unheard or elevate the voice of the people that may not have either gotten a chance to get their word out there or can really speak to some of the challenges that are happening. And that's the way that hip hop started. You look at Public Enemy, they saw themselves as the black CNN. They were trying to voice what's really happening. You listen to songs like Grandmaster Flash, The Message. This is what's going on in the streets of New York right now. And I think that if you listen to a lot of hip hop from other areas and you hear things translated, you're hearing a lot of that. And even someone like Bad Bunny, how he speaks about some of the challenges and the oppression that's happening in Latin America, or even things that are happening in Puerto Rico specifically, or even how we spoke out about disaster relief and even L G B T Q issues. It's not a coincidence that this is a hip hop artist that is doing this in their own language and that's happening. So I think we've just continued to see more and more influence and we'll continue to see how hip hop continues to be such a big driver. And it's not just Latin America. You're seeing it in France and you're seeing it elsewhere. And as globalization of music more broadly has made it more possible for artists in local languages to truly rise up. I think you're gonna see more and more of that coming from hip hop in a lot of those local language areas. All right. And the last question we have here is from Quai Bangs who asks, do I notice similarities in emerging artists that follow the start-up path to start-ups themselves? And I definitely do see a lot of those. And I like the question because I've been hearing so much from founders in the space and start-ups in other companies about two things. Truly identifying and seeing artists as founders, not just as the creative talent behind what they're doing, but they are the ones that are the founding person of this company that if successful as it can be, it'll be a company built around them to then help focus and really benefit and speak to their strengths and address their weaknesses as well. No different than a start-up would be who is that? Who are your co-founders that you're gonna find that may not be on the talent side, but can help with the business? Or if you wanna do it all yourself, who are the people that can be around you to at least help support in that way? And I think that you've seen some of those things happen, from time and time again. You look at the start of Dreamville, I very much do. Ibrahim Hamad and Jay Cole as two people that are in line with being able to do that and continuing to push forward, which I think has been pretty strong, seeing how they've been able to do that over the past decade. Plus, you look at any of these record labels and I think you're more likely than not going to see some type of tandem there. We talked about Quality Control. I think you see a lot of that too, and I think no different than a start-up may try to get equity for what they're doing. I think you're seeing certain artists start to explore this as well, whether they're trying to explore on chain, we're trying to sell tokens or they're trying to get a more formal structure in place. I recently had the investor, Cooper Turley, Cooper Tupa on the podcast, and he was talking about this as well, and how he's investing in companies that are looking at this investing artist specifically so that he can take an equity stake out of the artists themselves and be a bit, you know, less dilutive than a record label that may wanna take 80% of the cut moving forward in exchange for in advance. So there's plenty of trade-offs there. I think it's an interesting thing to continue to explore, but I think that it is a sign of what that path to the future looks like. Cuz I think that artists, our founders, at the end of the day, how they go about that, you know, is one thing or another. And who wears that CEO hat. Whether it's someone that artist proactively puts in place or it's someone. It ends up being at the record label that they signed to, or it's their manager. There's so many ways that these hats can be worn, so you'll be interested to see how it plays out. But wow, that was fun. That was a quick bunch of rapid fire questions there, but this was really great. I hope you enjoyed it and I hope you enjoyed the podcast this year as well. Definitely continue to share it with anyone that you think would be in. And let me know if you have any other questions. We can keep this in mind. I wanna do these more regularly in general. So, yeah, if you're listening and you enjoyed this episode, send us a quick note, whether it's, you know, on social media or email. And then we'll keep them rolling so that the next time we do a mail bag podcast, we can keep it rolling. Thu, 15 Dec 2022 09:00:00 -0000 Trapital Mailbag: A.I. in Music, Future of NFTs, Hip-Hop Globalization, and More! full Dan Runcie I’m digging into the mailbag for today’s episode. For the first time in over a year, I asked Trapital listeners and readers to send me their most burning questions about the music industry. I’ve pulled out nine questions from the bunch to cover on the show.  We’re covering everything from NFTs to artificial-intelligence-assisted music creation to investing in music catalogs going forward and a whole lot more. I’m hitting you with my honest thoughts on each. Here’s a look at the topics: [0:54] State of music NFTs  [4:40] Customer problems as a music startup [8:35] Lack of new music superstars  [12:07] Future of AI-assisted music creation  [17:00] Tradeoff for artists wanting ownership  [22:11] Hasbro selling eOne [26:16] Music catalog investing in 2023 [29:41] Globalization of hip-hop  [33:21] Emerging artists as startup founders  Trapital’s first-ever Cultural Report for 2022: https://trapital.co/culture-report/ Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Check out The Drop, REVOLT's weekly newsletter to stay ahead of the latest news in hip-hop and Black culture. To learn more, visit revolt.tv   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital’s free memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Dan Runcie: If you're an owner of I.P., often times that I.P. may be the most valuable thing that you have. But does it always make sense for you to then be the ones that produce it? Of course, there's unique examples of this, right? I think Disney is a company that clearly does both, but Disney is such a unicorn in what it does in so many ways, and we've all seen that flywheel of what they've done, and that flywheel is so relevant because it's hard to see another company that could really do that to that level. But it's more likely than not that if you are an I.P. owner or it's probably in your best financial interest to partner with a company that you can leverage their production because they are skilled at being a production company to do that thing. [00:00:46] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  [00:01:04] (Intro) Dan Runcie: From you, the listeners who make Trapital, exactly what it is. So this is a mailbag question where you all sent in your best questions. Some of you emailed them, some of you posted them on socials, but I looked at the questions and picked the best ones, and this is a mailbag episode. It's been a while since we did one of these, so it felt good to do one. I actually wanna do these more often just because I think the questions were really great and we're able to address a bunch of topics that we'll get into A.I, the future of music, globalization, ownership, and all the topics that we love to break down on capital and a few ones. So let's jump in. [00:01:41] (Pre Roll Ad Moonpay)  [00:02:11] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have our one and only Mailbag episode from Trapital. It's been a while since we did one of these. I feel, maybe at some point earlier this year we did a mailbag, so it was finally good to dig back in, hear from folks and be able to answer the questions that a lot of you have been thinking. This podcast has grown quite a bit this past year and was in the 1% for the most shared podcast according to Spotify wrap, so that was pretty good. Some applause for that. And I wanted to bring in some of the questions from some of the avid listeners and readers we have. So I posted in social media, posted in the newsletter, and this is a roundup of the best ones. Covered a bunch of topics. We're gonna talk about the future of A.I and music, the state of NFTs, globalization, ownership, and a whole lot more. So let's dive into the first question we have here. So, Ken Penn wants to know what is the current state of music NFTs and our major labels as interested in them as they were? So first for some clear context, a lot of people have been asking questions about this because the general trends of N F T discussions from last year to this year is not quite what you would expect. A lot of people saw that Bloomberg report that came out earlier in 2022, I think they said, N F T transactions were down 97% from the peak that they were at in 2021. And if you type in the word NFTs in Google Trends, you'll probably see a slope that looks quite downward. That is very true, and that's clearly where that is. But I think there's a big difference between that, which I think 97% of that was the hype and a lot of the crap that you likely would only see at the height of the pandemic when money was flowing like crazy. Think about the time when like Pet rocks were being sold and Logan Paul was buying his NFTs or trying to sell his NFTs for whatever. If that was the top of the market, then I think we're seeing things level off a bit more now because you are still seeing partnerships from the major labels and from a lot of artists. I look at Warner Music Group. Warner's been active, more active than any other major label, I think, when it comes to active investments and being forward-looking and being public about those investments. And it was just six, seven weeks ago that they had formed a partnership with Open Sea, which is one of the largest platforms out there to be able to trade in as a marketplace to be able to buy and sell NFTs. So you also have other deals that we've seen. Universal Music Group recently hired two SVPs that are focused on web three with a pretty strong focus on NFTs themselves. And more broadly, you have companies like Public Pressure that just raised $6 million to continue to build in this space. I have said this a few times in this podcast, but I think that Web three and NFT specifically, you had to get through the.com era. You had to get through that heads.com phase of people just starting shit because it sounded like it was something that was gonna resonate, but after a lot of that didn't work out. You obviously had the.com bubble burst. That era still gave us Google, it still gave us Amazon and all these other companies that have still continued to be successful and be some of the biggest companies in the world today. And I think there was a very strong chance that we will still have that with this current wave. It may look slightly different in music, but I still think that we're gonna see, and we have seen more of the true opportunities, whether it's on the artist side of artists that are selling actual NFTs that their fans would find valuable and that others will wanna buy into as well. And I think you'll see this on the major label side with more investment going into acts that can actually reap the rewards from it. One of the biggest deals of 2022 when it comes to N F T sales was Snoop. and what he was able to do, just capturing that momentum. After the Super Bowl. We wrote, or I covered a lot of this in the culture report that Trapital put out will include a link to it in the show notes if you haven't checked it out yet, but still a lot of upside on NFTs. I do not see it quite as much as the bubble that I think was clearly there in 2021. A lot of that quarantine rapid growth needed to calm back down a bit, and I think NFTs are one of the areas that were hit a lot harder than others, but I still think that there's plenty of upside for people that actually wanna build and don't just wanna do grifter, whatever the hell else people were trying to buy itself time. Another question here is from David from Santa Monica, and this was actually a reply to a newsletter that I recently put out where I was talking about some of the cost challenges that music startups and music tech companies will face as in regards to working with customers and customer service and working and dealing with unprofitable customers and wanting to move further up. Mark's question was whether or not I had any data on the customer service costs that these companies have. And I wanna answer that question in a slightly different way. It's less about customer service in the same way that you know, you or I may go call Comcast or may call Xfinity when we're having an issue with our cable or our internet, but it's more so you are a client or customer that is trying to use this particular service, whether it's free or you're relying on it to grow your own business, and you are now having some challenges, you're having some type of question. The thing is a lot of the companies, especially a lot of the distribution platforms, started off being available to everyone, but I think they realized how expensive it is to serve the clients and to serve the customers who are not driving the most business possible. It's no different than a lot of people see when they're working with client services. Overall, your $2 million clients in a lot of ways can be so much more enjoyable to deal with and work with than your $2,000 clients or $2,000 clients will chat a nickel and a dime. They have a bunch of questions about this, that, and the third, but your clients that have a bit more money, they normally come in a bit more clear and confident with what they're looking for, and it can lead to better business in the long run. And I think to a lot of extent, the same is true with a lot of the artists that you end up serving or a lot of the customers that a lot of these platforms end up serving because a lot of their time gets spent with customers that just don't justify the ROI of how much it costs to have that person on staff continue to work and continue to coach and work directly with someone who's just not generating enough revenue to be able to justify the spend. And if you think about how a lot of the companies focus on these things, especially if you're being built out like a tech customer success. This is a role where whether even at the high individual contributor, or the middle level manager role, you're talking, you know, $150, $200,000 plus for someone that can do that roll on annual basis. I mean, I'm thinking of myself, it was six years ago at this point, I was offered a customer success role from a startup that has, you know, now been acquired. I believe the offer was right around that $150, or maybe it was a little bit more than that K range. And that's how much you're paying to have one person that is dedicated to not just you, but to other clients. But if you were to fractionize my time, let's say that, you know, I was someone that was making $160k a year and I had 12 to 16 clients per year that I was serving, you have to justify, okay, is it worth $10k of the company's time to be able to continue to serve this person if that's what I'm spending my timeline, and we all know that it's less likely that it's gonna be an even split. So that's where these things I think, can often come into play, which is why I think you've seen a lot of the distribution services and a lot of the others start to be more selective over time. And they start to have cut-offs in terms of who they're willing to serve and who they're not willing to serve. And that's one of the reasons why I think we see that shift where, especially in music distribution, it ends up leaning itself towards just having a low cost option, like Distrokid or a tunecore where it essentially doesn't cost much at all to upload the services, but it's a bit more do it yourself or you get something that is a bit more boutique. But by being able to join the boutique offering, it's much more selective as a result. So the next question here is from Arthur from Twitter. He didn't specifically say his name, but it was a good question here. He asked, who gets more blame for the lack of consistent superstar X, labels or customers? The answer is neither. The answer is technology. If you're trying to blame anyone, I personally don't call it blame. I more so call it the driving factor, but this is more about technology. Technology was the driving force that lowered the barriers to entry for artists to be able to create more music than they've ever created, and to be able to release it the way that they've done it. And because they're releasing music the way that they've done it, it then becomes harder and much more noisier for new artists to be able to enter the scene and be able to hit the same heights that they did. And because of the increased number of options that are there, it makes it even easier for powers that be to continue to invest more in what they already see proven. Whether that is your superstar artist or ones who have already proven themselves that seem like they'd be most likely to be the next next bets, whether that's your Taylor Swift or your Adele, or your Beyonce on the proven side or on the artist coming up, whether it's someone like, Olivia Rodrigo, or like Blast, or Billie Eilish or someone like that. So these things that are, I think, a big factor just based on where things are and barriers continuing to be lower and lower. And there's been countless reports on just how difficult it is and how record labels are starting to feel like it's having a harder time to break new stars in the way that they once did. It's harder to have new superstars reach the levels that they did. I think you see this in some of the analysis that's been done on charts and stuff like that too. It's a lot of the same names that have been household names for over a decade that are continuing to stay there and it's harder for the new artists to really come through. So I guess if there's anyone to blame for that, we can blame the founders and the product managers from the companies that enabled the barriers actually to happen in the first place. I know a lot of people disagree. I do think it's a good thing that people have more options than ever just in terms of the artist's perspective, but just because I think that it brought a lot of flexibility. But with that, there's always trade-offs like any new technology brings. There's good with that. There's bad that comes with that. I do think that the pros and the cons outweigh them. I do think that the pros do outweigh the cons with that, but still very aware of the downsides of the current timing. This next question is from Joe Edwards and he asked, what is the ultimate potential of GPT-3? This is a hot topic right now, I think for a lot of folks, and it's a question that I think everyone from record labels to attorneys, to emerging artists are trying to figure out, but here's my perspective. I think that GPT-3 is a great tool that will be able to give songwriters an extra tool that they can have by their side. I think we recently heard Bruce Springsteen on a podcast talk about how he could use A.I., whether it's something like something that can help jog his memory or jog his thoughts, specifically if he's having a better writer's block and how difficult that can be for a songwriter. You just wanna be able to have a few things that can aid your process of bringing thoughts together. The pen that comes from that would ever truly replicate something that Bruce Springsteen would wanna put out himself. But just give it how advanced these tools get and how better and better they get. It's likely gonna provide some inspiration that can be helpful. That said, I think it would be more helpful to help existing artists, and I'm a bit less bullish right now on new artists coming up. I think we all saw what happened with Capitol Records and FN Meka and that whole mess, while I don't think that that's all A.I. driven, part of that's driven by the people that were running it. I do think that that is an inherent challenge that some people may be a bit weary of, at least for now. But one place that I do think A.I. and GPT-3 specifically could be unique for is for giving certain artists or certain people the ability to access a sound catalog or an ability to access a group of songs that they can use to then scour to figure out what they can then glean from that to be able to create the new songs that are able to create lyrics that they could use in the future. The reason I highlight this is because I'm sure if you're trying to use a song that is based on a song that is owned by a major record label, the record labels and their lawyers will come after you, and it is something that I know that is already top of mind for. But there's a lot of music out there, a lot of music that people would want to hear that isn't owned or controlled by the major record labels. And I think in the same way that you saw platforms like Epidemic Sound or Splice and others be able to create, whether it's monthly subscriptions or other types of opportunities to buy access to a right to use any of the songs in the catalog. I think you could see something very similar to that happening with A.I. and GPT-3 specifically, because yes, if GPT-3 tries to scour all of the songs available, that is a legal nightmare. But if you're an artist and you wanna be able to pay $10.99 a month or whatever it is, to be able to access this tool where you could type. Any prompt that could help spur your thought, that could be a very great use of $10.99, especially if that gives you the ability to make the next album from your bedroom that could be nominated and win a bunch of Grammys or sell, or, you know, do a bunch of commercial success or just have enough success for you to be a standalone successful musician in your own right. Because I do think a lot of those things are likely to appeal more so to independent artists. I also think that we'll see some potential with GPT-3 with an artist that breaks out on TikTok in general, I almost feel like it's inevitable that there's gonna be some artist in 2023 that has some song that goes viral on TikTok, and people are gonna be like, oh, where did the idea for the song come come from? And the artist is gonna say, oh, I just typed in a prompt. Write me a song about X, Y, Z. And here's what came up. Because we already started to see little hints of how artists would use name generation or using tools to come up with things, right? You've all heard the story about how Lil Nas X used insights from Reddit and insights from Twitter to create Old Town Road and how he essentially engineered that song to reach a type of success that it did grant. A lot of that was outside of his influence, just given things going viral after the whole country music controversy. But a lot of the things leading up to that point were influenced by him. And I think even on a more simpler side, artists like Childish Gambino and Post Malone, I'm pretty sure that both of them got their names from some random computer generators. So there's been things like that that we've seen and I think we'll continue to see more of that. And I think even the answer to this question is gonna continue to evolve. So you could ask me this question in a year. I think I could probably have this as an end of the year podcast question for some time now. And their law used to be something new to glean. The next question here is from Mercedes G. She wants to know why don't artists prioritize ownership even though artists have been pushing ownership for decades? So this question is a bit nuanced because I do think that there are a lot of artists out there that do push ownership, and they are clear that they wanna be able to own their masters and own their publishing and understand the value. I think the challenge comes though, when it becomes a trade off and that trade off is likely offering the artist something that they couldn't have otherwise had because owning your masters and owning all those things sounds great and it sounds great if we assume that the artist could have reached the same heights that they could without giving up something in exchange. The thing is, when an artist is starting to pop and they are already experiencing what some of the challenges are, being able to really hit that next level and whether that is something that they want to do because of some of the things I answered with earlier questions. With more and more music coming out, it's harder for everyone to break out. It's especially harder for artists that are already signed to two record labels to break through. That means it's gonna be even hard for an artist that doesn't have the major label resources behind them to break out as well, which could make them even more likely to wanna then sign with the major record label, especially if they are cutting you a check. I'll look at a few examples of younger artists as well. Look at an artist like Lil Dirk or even NBA Young Boy, I'm pretty sure little Dirk. Posted that he had gotten a 40 million deal recently this year. And I think Dirk is someone that has been popular. I mean, it's several years ago at this point that he was on double XLS freshman list, but even as an independent artist, it could have taken him quite a bit of time to ever hit that amount of money, especially if he's trying to cash it in on the moment that he has. So it's one thing to push ownership and it's another thing to still be able to say, you know what, no, I'm good. I don't want that check. Let me continue to do what I'm doing. When someone offers you an eight figure check that's right in front of you. And I think there's a bit of that human element that can sometimes get a bit lost cuz it's easy for the people in the pita gallery playing Monday morning quarterback to go say, oh, why would you do that deal? Or us to focus on some of the survivorship stories of Master P turning down a million dollar record label deal. Different people that may have offered it to him. Because for every success story like Master P, there are other people that turned those same type of deals down but it didn't take off the way it did for P and then they go back to the record label and being like, oh, hey, could I still get that deal? And the record label's like, no, like the moment passed and the only reason you're coming to me is because you don't feel like you have the momentum that you had before. So there's a few factors here that I think are important to consider, and there is that human element that I think just changes. It's one thing to be a Twitter pundit and put your thoughts out there, but it's another thing to really still say no when a company that you know, they're rolling out the red carpet for you their show, they're presenting the seven, eight figure check, whatever it is, and then you still saying, no, I'm good. And then I think you even see us at the highest levels as well. You look at the deals that you know, someone like Drake or the weekend, you're more so hitting now into the nine figure deals and these artists are more likely to be able to continue to have ownership, but they're still licensing their masters or licensing their music out to the major company. So there's still some trade off there. It's very rare that you ever are really seeing superstar artists that still are hitting those superstar artists levels that is like, you know what? I'm good. Let me just go release everything independently. Cause I think at the end of the day, if you are a priority on these labels, and if you are still getting the best that you can get, you're more likely to figure out, okay, what trade-off is commensurate at what level? And that doesn't mean there wasn't a better way that could be done optimally. My explanation here is more of an explanation of the entire landscape of less of an advocacy for one position or another. But I do think in general, just given how much harder it is for record labels to be able to truly, I think, focus and invest on that artist development piece because they're expecting artists to come to them when they've already hit zero to 60. I think it really puts the onus on the artist to be like, okay, are you happy at 60? Because if you're happy at 60, you may not need the record label, and maybe you think you could get to 70 or 80 yourself, but it may take some time. But if you're trying to get to a hundred, it's gonna be really hard for you to do that independently. So a lot of it requires some questioning on where you wanna go, how far you wanna go, and why that may or may not be as important to you.  [00:22:52] (Mid Ad): Today's episode of The Trapital Podcast was brought to you by Revolt. Revolt is on a mission to curate and share the best of the best in hip hop culture and social justice. You may remember a couple months back I had the CEO of Revolt, Detavio Samuels on the podcast scene. He talked all about the mission and where things are going, and I think this is one leading company that is elevating what's happening in black culture. It was launched by Sean Diddy Combs back in 2013, and the multi-platform Network offers breaking news videos, artist interviews, exclusive performances, and original programming. They have content for everyone, like Asset over liabilities and original podcast with the host of Earn Your Leisure that gives you a behind the scenes look into the business investments of artists like Soulja Boy and Rick Ross. They also have the Drop Revolts weekly newsletter and curation of the latest in hip hop and black news, and they have the black print where sits down with innovators and change makers laying the ground up for the next generation for the culture. You can learn more and sign up for Revolt's newsletter, the drop@revolt.tv. [00:24:00] Dan Runcie: All right, this next question here is about a specific deal that's going on, but it's gonna be a good one to answer. JB from Atlanta asked, now that Hasbro has sold E-One's TV and film division, could quality control be a potential buyer? So a few things to unpack here. Earlier in November, Hasbro announced that it will be selling its TV and filled divisions of the comp company. Note that this news, three years after Hasbro had initially acquired all of Entertainment One, which included its music division. And then I think it's been about a year now. My time may be off, but it's been about a year plus now that it had rolled off its music division, which then became Monarch, which is run by Chris Taylor and that team. You may remember them because they were the team that was involved with the selling and the acquisition of Death Row records and then that deal with Snoop Dog. But Hasbro overall has kind of been in this, oops, maybe we should have done this deal when they went and bought E-One. And I think the big takeaway away for Hasbro has been that if we want to leverage the IP that we have, and as many of you know, Hasbro toy companies, so it has the IP there, but it also has some brands that were in that production, like Peppa Pig and things like that. They can still own the IP, but they don't have to own the in-house production to be able to then leverage that IP and make it happen, and then when you own those divisions, it just can be so costly to try to do that. So they got a lot of pressure from Wall Street and other analysts to sell that division and focus on what they do. If you're an owner of an IP, Oftentimes that IP may be the most valuable thing that you then have, but does it always make sense for you to then be the ones that produce it? Of course, there's unique examples of this, right? I think Disney is a company that clearly does both, but Disney is such a unicorn in what it does in so many ways, and we've all seen that flywheel what they've done, and that flywheel is so relevant because it's hard to see another company that could really do that to that level. But it's more likely than not that if you are an IP owner or it's probably in your best financial interest to partner with a company that you can leverage through their production because they are skilled at being a production company to do that thing. So that was a lot of the reason why that sale happened in the first place. Now let's talk about the QC part of this. I would be very surprised if Quality Control was to go on and buy a TV and film division because I also look at Quality Control as an IP. I mean just given the ownership structure, they may joint own some of that with Motown, give the joint venture there. But they are IP owners that can then use that to leverage, whether it's the brand or the story of your little baby Migos and even the rise of coach K and P and and things like that. And while QC does do investments, like I know they're involved with SoundCloud and they have a few other things going. I would be very surprised if they went on to acquire a type of, you know, studio themselves. I know that QC does have a film division, but my impression of that has always been more so, yeah, let's stay quiet, let's have that something that we could have that small and manageable in-house, but if they still have a big release, I think they would probably wanna go to shop that and market the same way that any other big time producer would want if they wanted to push something further. No different than, I think you kind of saw with the Little baby documentary that eventually went on, Amazon was released on Amazon Prime a couple of months ago. So I would be surprised there, if anything, I mean, I think QC is one of these record labels that may be looking for an outside investor itself, but I'm not quite sure what the Motown relationship, just given the joint venture ownership there and how that may look, whether or not who the actual company is that owns, whether it's the brand or the artist or anything like that. Moving forward from that. All right. Couple more questions here. So is music investing specifically, like in catalogs, is music investing still a good idea in 2023? And my answer is yes, but not in some of those 2021 pandemic era evaluations. And that's because I think what I liked about the catalog boom is that it brought awareness to something that I think a retail investors in the niche knew, but a lot of others weren't focusing on, is that there's a lot of value to be had with owning some of these catalogs because there's certain artists that I think do have the potential to just feel similar to a evergreen stock or something like that continues. Provide consistent revenue that isn't correlated with the economy time and time again. But I think there's a few things that happened that people may have missed. One, there is a decay curve with all of those assets. And even as much as people wanna tell you that the Beach Boys or Michael Jackson or the Beatles are timeless, everything has a decay curve. I mean, you could even go back, you know, decades, even. Frank Sinatra or Elvis. I know that you know that the movie that came out recently, but even folks like that, the discussions that are happening now about those people aren't anywhere near the type of discussions that you may have heard, at least when I was growing up, and that just shows you how much has changed in several decades since then. So, and I think the music listening would've probably aligned with that as well. So there's that, and I just think that the valuations that were being paid for a lot of these things probably just wouldn't happen again. One, because interest rates are nowhere near as low as they were, but I think even regardless of interest rates, there was a lot of overpaying for those assets just given the excitement. So smart on a lot of the artists for cashing out when they did and getting a lot of those returns because at least from what we've seen from a lot of the reports, You've seen some of these financial time stories talking about Hypnosis. And Hypnosis has at least from what the returns have been from their catalog has not been able to generate returns that a lot of the investors feel satisfied with and feel are in line with what they had, which is why I think you started to see more challenges there. There was almost an entire year period where the company didn't make an investment, and I think you've seen a lot of things ring true for others. There are still catalog sales happening. It just may not happen at the particular dollar amount that people wanted. For instance, there was Pink Floyd deal that was being talked about for a while. It's still being talked about. I believe they wanted $500 million, but based on some of the recent findings that had come out, the offers that they started to get were much smaller than they would've liked. So people are still interested in buying Pink Floyd. It may not be for the amount of money that the rights holders wanna sell it for, but there's still interest there, and I think that rings true all the way up and down the board. Listen, it wasn't even just music investing. The quarantine era of the pandemic led to a lot of sales for things happening that just probably wouldn't happen in the same way today. All right. Another question here is how does the globalization of hip hop Influence its business and cultural impact? And this question came from chat GPT. Someone had submitted this question and then it came back as, oh, what do you think is a good question to ask about the business of music or the business of hip hop? So this is a fun one. I know I've written about it a few times, but for the sake of brevity, I'll tackle it in two ways. First, A lot of the Western hip hop artists were able to reach a much bigger audience as a result of globalization, and I think it made it easier for some of them to launch global brands as a result. I look at folks like Rihanna and folks like Jay-Z. Look at some of the deals they've done with, whether it's ACE of Spades for Jay-Z, or the Fenty partnerships with Rihanna. These partnerships are tied in with European companies and there has to be some relevance for how big you are seen in Europe and other areas for those things to really have an impact. And I think you saw that compound as well. When you look at someone like Rihanna and Fenty Beauty, being able to enter Africa and just given the ethos of that brand being able to be inclusive and have shades for all skin tones, it makes perfect sense to be able to do it in Africa, which you just think about the beauty industry. This is an entire continent of people, especially women. Different complexion and skin tones that were largely overlooked by the many other major brands. So being able to have that influence there directly ties into an artist like Rihanna, you know, years, decades earlier, being able to tour in these places and being able to have her name out there, being able to be seen in that way. So I think it affects it from that perspective. And of course, Jay-Z, Rihanna are more so people at the top of that chain that are billionaires, but I think it really made a large impact on everyone else on the other side, I think it's made a huge impact on international artists too, because we've seen in so many other places that hip hop has truly been that connective tissue. It's really been that gateway that can help. Raise and elevate the voice of the unheard or elevate the voice of the people that may not have either gotten a chance to get their word out there or can really speak to some of the challenges that are happening. And that's the way that hip hop started. You look at Public Enemy, they saw themselves as the black CNN. They were trying to voice what's really happening. You listen to songs like Grandmaster Flash, The Message. This is what's going on in the streets of New York right now. And I think that if you listen to a lot of hip hop from other areas and you hear things translated, you're hearing a lot of that. And even someone like Bad Bunny, how he speaks about some of the challenges and the oppression that's happening in Latin America, or even things that are happening in Puerto Rico specifically, or even how we spoke out about disaster relief and even L G B T Q issues. It's not a coincidence that this is a hip hop artist that is doing this in their own language and that's happening. So I think we've just continued to see more and more influence and we'll continue to see how hip hop continues to be such a big driver. And it's not just Latin America. You're seeing it in France and you're seeing it elsewhere. And as globalization of music more broadly has made it more possible for artists in local languages to truly rise up. I think you're gonna see more and more of that coming from hip hop in a lot of those local language areas. All right. And the last question we have here is from Quai Bangs who asks, do I notice similarities in emerging artists that follow the start-up path to start-ups themselves? And I definitely do see a lot of those. And I like the question because I've been hearing so much from founders in the space and start-ups in other companies about two things. Truly identifying and seeing artists as founders, not just as the creative talent behind what they're doing, but they are the ones that are the founding person of this company that if successful as it can be, it'll be a company built around them to then help focus and really benefit and speak to their strengths and address their weaknesses as well. No different than a start-up would be who is that? Who are your co-founders that you're gonna find that may not be on the talent side, but can help with the business? Or if you wanna do it all yourself, who are the people that can be around you to at least help support in that way? And I think that you've seen some of those things happen, from time and time again. You look at the start of Dreamville, I very much do. Ibrahim Hamad and Jay Cole as two people that are in line with being able to do that and continuing to push forward, which I think has been pretty strong, seeing how they've been able to do that over the past decade. Plus, you look at any of these record labels and I think you're more likely than not going to see some type of tandem there. We talked about Quality Control. I think you see a lot of that too, and I think no different than a start-up may try to get equity for what they're doing. I think you're seeing certain artists start to explore this as well, whether they're trying to explore on chain, we're trying to sell tokens or they're trying to get a more formal structure in place. I recently had the investor, Cooper Turley, Cooper Tupa on the podcast, and he was talking about this as well, and how he's investing in companies that are looking at this investing artist specifically so that he can take an equity stake out of the artists themselves and be a bit, you know, less dilutive than a record label that may wanna take 80% of the cut moving forward in exchange for in advance. So there's plenty of trade-offs there. I think it's an interesting thing to continue to explore, but I think that it is a sign of what that path to the future looks like. Cuz I think that artists, our founders, at the end of the day, how they go about that, you know, is one thing or another. And who wears that CEO hat. Whether it's someone that artist proactively puts in place or it's someone. It ends up being at the record label that they signed to, or it's their manager. There's so many ways that these hats can be worn, so you'll be interested to see how it plays out. But wow, that was fun. That was a quick bunch of rapid fire questions there, but this was really great. I hope you enjoyed it and I hope you enjoyed the podcast this year as well. Definitely continue to share it with anyone that you think would be in. And let me know if you have any other questions. We can keep this in mind. I wanna do these more regularly in general. So, yeah, if you're listening and you enjoyed this episode, send us a quick note, whether it's, you know, on social media or email. And then we'll keep them rolling so that the next time we do a mail bag podcast, we can keep it rolling. I’m digging into the mailbag for today’s episode. For the first time in over a year, I asked Trapital listeners and readers to send me their most burning questions about the music industry. I’ve pulled out nine questions from the bunch to cover on the show. 


We’re covering everything from NFTs to artificial-intelligence-assisted music creation to investing in music catalogs going forward and a whole lot more. I’m hitting you with my honest thoughts on each. Here’s a look at the topics:


[0:54] State of music NFTs 

[4:40] Customer problems as a music startup

[8:35] Lack of new music superstars 

[12:07] Future of AI-assisted music creation 

[17:00] Tradeoff for artists wanting ownership 

[22:11] Hasbro selling eOne

[26:16] Music catalog investing in 2023

[29:41] Globalization of hip-hop 

[33:21] Emerging artists as startup founders 


Trapital’s first-ever Cultural Report for 2022: https://trapital.co/culture-report/



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Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

 

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TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Dan Runcie: If you're an owner of I.P., often times that I.P. may be the most valuable thing that you have. But does it always make sense for you to then be the ones that produce it? Of course, there's unique examples of this, right? I think Disney is a company that clearly does both, but Disney is such a unicorn in what it does in so many ways, and we've all seen that flywheel of what they've done, and that flywheel is so relevant because it's hard to see another company that could really do that to that level. But it's more likely than not that if you are an I.P. owner or it's probably in your best financial interest to partner with a company that you can leverage their production because they are skilled at being a production company to do that thing.

[00:00:46] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. 

[00:01:04] (Intro) Dan Runcie: From you, the listeners who make Trapital, exactly what it is. So this is a mailbag question where you all sent in your best questions. Some of you emailed them, some of you posted them on socials, but I looked at the questions and picked the best ones, and this is a mailbag episode. It's been a while since we did one of these, so it felt good to do one. I actually wanna do these more often just because I think the questions were really great and we're able to address a bunch of topics that we'll get into A.I, the future of music, globalization, ownership, and all the topics that we love to break down on capital and a few ones. So let's jump in.

[00:01:41] (Pre Roll Ad Moonpay) 

[00:02:11] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have our one and only Mailbag episode from Trapital. It's been a while since we did one of these. I feel, maybe at some point earlier this year we did a mailbag, so it was finally good to dig back in, hear from folks and be able to answer the questions that a lot of you have been thinking. This podcast has grown quite a bit this past year and was in the 1% for the most shared podcast according to Spotify wrap, so that was pretty good. Some applause for that. And I wanted to bring in some of the questions from some of the avid listeners and readers we have. So I posted in social media, posted in the newsletter, and this is a roundup of the best ones. Covered a bunch of topics. We're gonna talk about the future of A.I and music, the state of NFTs, globalization, ownership, and a whole lot more. So let's dive into the first question we have here. So, Ken Penn wants to know what is the current state of music NFTs and our major labels as interested in them as they were? So first for some clear context, a lot of people have been asking questions about this because the general trends of N F T discussions from last year to this year is not quite what you would expect. A lot of people saw that Bloomberg report that came out earlier in 2022, I think they said, N F T transactions were down 97% from the peak that they were at in 2021. And if you type in the word NFTs in Google Trends, you'll probably see a slope that looks quite downward. That is very true, and that's clearly where that is. But I think there's a big difference between that, which I think 97% of that was the hype and a lot of the crap that you likely would only see at the height of the pandemic when money was flowing like crazy. Think about the time when like Pet rocks were being sold and Logan Paul was buying his NFTs or trying to sell his NFTs for whatever. If that was the top of the market, then I think we're seeing things level off a bit more now because you are still seeing partnerships from the major labels and from a lot of artists. I look at Warner Music Group. Warner's been active, more active than any other major label, I think, when it comes to active investments and being forward-looking and being public about those investments. And it was just six, seven weeks ago that they had formed a partnership with Open Sea, which is one of the largest platforms out there to be able to trade in as a marketplace to be able to buy and sell NFTs. So you also have other deals that we've seen. Universal Music Group recently hired two SVPs that are focused on web three with a pretty strong focus on NFTs themselves. And more broadly, you have companies like Public Pressure that just raised $6 million to continue to build in this space. I have said this a few times in this podcast, but I think that Web three and NFT specifically, you had to get through the.com era. You had to get through that heads.com phase of people just starting shit because it sounded like it was something that was gonna resonate, but after a lot of that didn't work out. You obviously had the.com bubble burst. That era still gave us Google, it still gave us Amazon and all these other companies that have still continued to be successful and be some of the biggest companies in the world today. And I think there was a very strong chance that we will still have that with this current wave. It may look slightly different in music, but I still think that we're gonna see, and we have seen more of the true opportunities, whether it's on the artist side of artists that are selling actual NFTs that their fans would find valuable and that others will wanna buy into as well. And I think you'll see this on the major label side with more investment going into acts that can actually reap the rewards from it. One of the biggest deals of 2022 when it comes to N F T sales was Snoop. and what he was able to do, just capturing that momentum. After the Super Bowl. We wrote, or I covered a lot of this in the culture report that Trapital put out will include a link to it in the show notes if you haven't checked it out yet, but still a lot of upside on NFTs. I do not see it quite as much as the bubble that I think was clearly there in 2021. A lot of that quarantine rapid growth needed to calm back down a bit, and I think NFTs are one of the areas that were hit a lot harder than others, but I still think that there's plenty of upside for people that actually wanna build and don't just wanna do grifter, whatever the hell else people were trying to buy itself time. Another question here is from David from Santa Monica, and this was actually a reply to a newsletter that I recently put out where I was talking about some of the cost challenges that music startups and music tech companies will face as in regards to working with customers and customer service and working and dealing with unprofitable customers and wanting to move further up. Mark's question was whether or not I had any data on the customer service costs that these companies have. And I wanna answer that question in a slightly different way. It's less about customer service in the same way that you know, you or I may go call Comcast or may call Xfinity when we're having an issue with our cable or our internet, but it's more so you are a client or customer that is trying to use this particular service, whether it's free or you're relying on it to grow your own business, and you are now having some challenges, you're having some type of question. The thing is a lot of the companies, especially a lot of the distribution platforms, started off being available to everyone, but I think they realized how expensive it is to serve the clients and to serve the customers who are not driving the most business possible. It's no different than a lot of people see when they're working with client services. Overall, your $2 million clients in a lot of ways can be so much more enjoyable to deal with and work with than your $2,000 clients or $2,000 clients will chat a nickel and a dime. They have a bunch of questions about this, that, and the third, but your clients that have a bit more money, they normally come in a bit more clear and confident with what they're looking for, and it can lead to better business in the long run. And I think to a lot of extent, the same is true with a lot of the artists that you end up serving or a lot of the customers that a lot of these platforms end up serving because a lot of their time gets spent with customers that just don't justify the ROI of how much it costs to have that person on staff continue to work and continue to coach and work directly with someone who's just not generating enough revenue to be able to justify the spend. And if you think about how a lot of the companies focus on these things, especially if you're being built out like a tech customer success. This is a role where whether even at the high individual contributor, or the middle level manager role, you're talking, you know, $150, $200,000 plus for someone that can do that roll on annual basis. I mean, I'm thinking of myself, it was six years ago at this point, I was offered a customer success role from a startup that has, you know, now been acquired. I believe the offer was right around that $150, or maybe it was a little bit more than that K range. And that's how much you're paying to have one person that is dedicated to not just you, but to other clients.


But if you were to fractionize my time, let's say that, you know, I was someone that was making $160k a year and I had 12 to 16 clients per year that I was serving, you have to justify, okay, is it worth $10k of the company's time to be able to continue to serve this person if that's what I'm spending my timeline, and we all know that it's less likely that it's gonna be an even split. So that's where these things I think, can often come into play, which is why I think you've seen a lot of the distribution services and a lot of the others start to be more selective over time. And they start to have cut-offs in terms of who they're willing to serve and who they're not willing to serve. And that's one of the reasons why I think we see that shift where, especially in music distribution, it ends up leaning itself towards just having a low cost option, like Distrokid or a tunecore where it essentially doesn't cost much at all to upload the services, but it's a bit more do it yourself or you get something that is a bit more boutique. But by being able to join the boutique offering, it's much more selective as a result. So the next question here is from Arthur from Twitter. He didn't specifically say his name, but it was a good question here. He asked, who gets more blame for the lack of consistent superstar X, labels or customers? The answer is neither. The answer is technology. If you're trying to blame anyone, I personally don't call it blame. I more so call it the driving factor, but this is more about technology. Technology was the driving force that lowered the barriers to entry for artists to be able to create more music than they've ever created, and to be able to release it the way that they've done it. And because they're releasing music the way that they've done it, it then becomes harder and much more noisier for new artists to be able to enter the scene and be able to hit the same heights that they did. And because of the increased number of options that are there, it makes it even easier for powers that be to continue to invest more in what they already see proven. Whether that is your superstar artist or ones who have already proven themselves that seem like they'd be most likely to be the next next bets, whether that's your Taylor Swift or your Adele, or your Beyonce on the proven side or on the artist coming up, whether it's someone like, Olivia Rodrigo, or like Blast, or Billie Eilish or someone like that. So these things that are, I think, a big factor just based on where things are and barriers continuing to be lower and lower. And there's been countless reports on just how difficult it is and how record labels are starting to feel like it's having a harder time to break new stars in the way that they once did. It's harder to have new superstars reach the levels that they did. I think you see this in some of the analysis that's been done on charts and stuff like that too. It's a lot of the same names that have been household names for over a decade that are continuing to stay there and it's harder for the new artists to really come through. So I guess if there's anyone to blame for that, we can blame the founders and the product managers from the companies that enabled the barriers actually to happen in the first place. I know a lot of people disagree. I do think it's a good thing that people have more options than ever just in terms of the artist's perspective, but just because I think that it brought a lot of flexibility. But with that, there's always trade-offs like any new technology brings. There's good with that. There's bad that comes with that. I do think that the pros and the cons outweigh them. I do think that the pros do outweigh the cons with that, but still very aware of the downsides of the current timing. This next question is from Joe Edwards and he asked, what is the ultimate potential of GPT-3? This is a hot topic right now, I think for a lot of folks, and it's a question that I think everyone from record labels to attorneys, to emerging artists are trying to figure out, but here's my perspective. I think that GPT-3 is a great tool that will be able to give songwriters an extra tool that they can have by their side. I think we recently heard Bruce Springsteen on a podcast talk about how he could use A.I., whether it's something like something that can help jog his memory or jog his thoughts, specifically if he's having a better writer's block and how difficult that can be for a songwriter. You just wanna be able to have a few things that can aid your process of bringing thoughts together. The pen that comes from that would ever truly replicate something that Bruce Springsteen would wanna put out himself. But just give it how advanced these tools get and how better and better they get. It's likely gonna provide some

inspiration that can be helpful. That said, I think it would be more helpful to help existing artists, and I'm a bit less bullish right now on new artists coming up. I think we all saw what happened with Capitol Records and FN Meka and that whole mess, while I don't think that that's all A.I. driven, part of that's driven by the people that were running it. I do think that that is an inherent challenge that some people may be a bit weary of, at least for now. But one place that I do think A.I. and GPT-3 specifically could be unique for is for giving certain artists or certain people the ability to access a sound catalog or an ability to access a group of songs that they can use to then scour to figure out what they can then glean from that to be able to create the new songs that are able to create lyrics that they could use in the future. The reason I highlight this is because I'm sure if you're trying to use a song that is based on a song that is owned by a major record label, the record labels and their lawyers will come after you, and it is something that I know that is already top of mind for. But there's a lot of music out there, a lot of music that people would want to hear that isn't owned or controlled by the major record labels. And I think in the same way that you saw platforms like Epidemic Sound or Splice and others be able to create, whether it's monthly subscriptions or other types of opportunities to buy access to a right to use any of the songs in the catalog. I think you could see something very similar to that happening with A.I. and GPT-3 specifically, because yes, if GPT-3 tries to scour all of the songs available, that is a legal nightmare. But if you're an artist and you wanna be able to pay $10.99 a month or whatever it is, to be able to access this tool where you could type. Any prompt that could help spur your thought, that could be a very great use of $10.99, especially if that gives you the ability to make the next album from your bedroom that could be nominated and win a bunch of Grammys or sell, or, you know, do a bunch of commercial success or just have enough success for you to be a standalone successful musician in your own right. Because I do think a lot of those things are likely to appeal more so to independent artists. I also think that we'll see some potential with GPT-3 with an artist that breaks out on TikTok in general, I almost feel like it's inevitable that there's gonna be some artist in 2023 that has some song that goes viral on TikTok, and people are gonna be like, oh, where did the idea for the song come come from? And the artist is gonna say, oh, I just typed in a prompt. Write me a song about X, Y, Z. And here's what came up. Because we already started to see little hints of how artists would use name generation or using tools to come up with things, right? You've all heard the story about how Lil Nas X used insights from Reddit and insights from Twitter to create Old Town Road and how he essentially engineered that song to reach a type of success that it did grant. A lot of that was outside of his influence, just given things going viral after the whole country music controversy. But a lot of the things leading up to that point were influenced by him. And I think even on a more simpler side, artists like Childish Gambino and Post Malone, I'm pretty sure that both of them got their names from some random computer generators. So there's been things like that that we've seen and I think we'll continue to see more of that. And I think even the answer to this question is gonna continue to evolve. So you could ask me this question in a year. I think I could probably have this as an end of the year podcast question for some time now. And their law used to be something new to glean. The next question here is from Mercedes G. She wants to know why don't artists prioritize ownership even though artists have been pushing ownership for decades? So this question is a bit nuanced because I do think that there are a lot of artists out there that do push ownership, and they are clear that they wanna be able to own their masters and own their publishing and understand the value. I think the challenge comes though, when it becomes a trade off and that trade off is likely offering the artist something that they couldn't have otherwise had because owning your masters and owning all those things sounds great and it sounds great if we assume that the artist could have reached the same heights that they could without giving up something in exchange.


The thing is, when an artist is starting to pop and they are already experiencing what some of the challenges are, being able to really hit that next level and whether that is something that they want to do because of some of the things I answered with earlier questions. With more and more music coming out, it's harder for everyone to break out. It's especially harder for artists that are already signed to two record labels to break through. That means it's gonna be even hard for an artist that doesn't have the major label resources behind them to break out as well, which could make them even more likely to wanna then sign with the major record label, especially if they are cutting you a check. I'll look at a few examples of younger artists as well. Look at an artist like Lil Dirk or even NBA Young Boy, I'm pretty sure little Dirk. Posted that he had gotten a 40 million deal recently this year. And I think Dirk is someone that has been popular. I mean, it's several years ago at this point that he was on double XLS freshman list, but even as an independent artist, it could have taken him quite a bit of time to ever hit that amount of money, especially if he's trying to cash it in on the moment that he has. So it's one thing to push ownership and it's another thing to still be able to say, you know what, no, I'm good. I don't want that check. Let me continue to do what I'm doing. When someone offers you an eight figure check that's right in front of you. And I think there's a bit of that human element that can sometimes get a bit lost cuz it's easy for the people in the pita gallery playing Monday morning quarterback to go say, oh, why would you do that deal? Or us to focus on some of the survivorship stories of Master P turning down a million dollar record label deal. Different people that may have offered it to him. Because for every success story like Master P, there are other people that turned those same type of deals down but it didn't take off the way it did for P and then they go back to the record label and being like, oh, hey, could I still get that deal? And the record label's like, no, like the moment passed and the only reason you're coming to me is because you don't feel like you have the momentum that you had before. So there's a few factors here that I think are important to consider, and there is that human element that I think just changes. It's one thing to be a Twitter pundit and put your thoughts out there, but it's another thing to really still say no when a company that you know, they're rolling out the red carpet for you their show, they're presenting the seven, eight figure check, whatever it is, and then you still saying, no, I'm good. And then I think you even see us at the highest levels as well. You look at the deals that you know, someone like Drake or the weekend, you're more so hitting now into the nine figure deals and these artists are more likely to be able to continue to have ownership, but they're still licensing their masters or licensing their music out to the major company. So there's still some trade off there. It's very rare that you ever are really seeing superstar artists that still are hitting those superstar artists levels that is like, you know what? I'm good. Let me just go release everything independently. Cause I think at the end of the day, if you are a priority on these labels, and if you are still getting the best that you can get, you're more likely to figure out, okay, what trade-off is commensurate at what level? And that doesn't mean there wasn't a better way that could be done optimally. My explanation here is more of an explanation of the entire landscape of less of an advocacy for one position or another. But I do think in general, just given how much harder it is for record labels to be able to truly, I think, focus and invest on that artist development piece because they're expecting artists to come to them when they've already hit zero to 60. I think it really puts the onus on the artist to be like, okay, are you happy at 60? Because if you're happy at 60, you may not need the record label, and maybe you think you could get to 70 or 80 yourself, but it may take some time. But if you're trying to get to a hundred, it's gonna be really hard for you to do that independently. So a lot of it requires some questioning on where you wanna go, how far you wanna go, and why that may or may not be as important to you. 

[00:22:52] (Mid Ad): Today's episode of The Trapital Podcast was brought to you by Revolt. Revolt is on a mission to curate and share the best of the best in hip hop culture and social justice. You may remember a couple months back I had the CEO of Revolt, Detavio Samuels on the podcast scene. He talked all about the mission and where things are going, and I think this is one leading company that is elevating what's happening in black culture. It was launched by Sean Diddy Combs back in 2013, and the multi-platform Network offers breaking news videos, artist interviews, exclusive performances, and original programming. They have content for everyone, like Asset over liabilities and original podcast with the host of Earn Your Leisure that gives you a behind the scenes look into the business investments of artists like Soulja Boy and Rick Ross. They also have the Drop Revolts weekly newsletter and curation of the latest in hip hop and black news, and they have the black print where sits down with innovators and change makers laying the ground up for the next generation for the culture. You can learn more and sign up for Revolt's newsletter, the drop@revolt.tv.

[00:24:00] Dan Runcie: All right, this next question here is about a specific deal that's going on, but it's gonna be a good one to answer. JB from Atlanta asked, now that Hasbro has sold E-One's TV and film division, could quality control be a potential buyer? So a few things to unpack here. Earlier in November, Hasbro announced that it will be selling its TV and filled divisions of the comp company. Note that this news, three years after Hasbro had initially acquired all of Entertainment One, which included its music division. And then I think it's been about a year now. My time may be off, but it's been about a year plus now that it had rolled off its music division, which then became Monarch, which is run by Chris Taylor and that team. You may remember them because they were the team that was involved with the selling and the acquisition of Death Row records and then that deal with Snoop Dog. But Hasbro overall has kind of been in this, oops, maybe we should have done this deal when they went and bought E-One. And I think the big takeaway away for Hasbro has been that if we want to leverage the IP that we have, and as many of you know, Hasbro toy companies, so it has the IP there, but it also has some brands that were in that production, like Peppa Pig and things like that. They can still own the IP, but they don't have to own the in-house production to be able to then leverage that IP and make it happen, and then when you own those divisions, it just can be so costly to try to do that. So they got a lot of pressure from Wall Street and other analysts to sell that division and focus on what they do. If you're an owner of an IP, Oftentimes that IP may be the most valuable thing that you then have, but does it always make sense for you to then be the ones that produce it? Of course, there's unique examples of this, right? I think Disney is a company that clearly does both, but Disney is such a unicorn in what it does in so many ways, and we've all seen that flywheel what they've done, and that flywheel is so relevant because it's hard to see another company that could really do that to that level. But it's more likely than not that if you are an IP owner or it's probably in your best financial interest to partner with a company that you can leverage through their production because they are skilled at being a production company to do that thing. So that was a lot of the reason why that sale happened in the first place. Now let's talk about the QC part of this. I would be very surprised if Quality Control was to go on and buy a TV and film division because I also look at Quality Control as an IP. I mean just given the ownership structure, they may joint own some of that with Motown, give the joint venture there. But they are IP owners that can then use that to leverage, whether it's the brand or the story of your little baby Migos and even the rise of coach K and P and and things like that. And while QC does do investments, like I know they're involved with SoundCloud and they have a few other things going. I would be very surprised if they went on to acquire a type of, you know, studio themselves. I know that QC does have a film division, but my impression of that has always been more so, yeah, let's stay quiet, let's have that something that we could have that small and manageable in-house, but if they still have a big release, I think they would probably wanna go to shop that and market the same way that any other big time producer would want if they wanted to push something further. No different than, I think you kind of saw with the Little baby documentary that eventually went on, Amazon was released on Amazon Prime a couple of months ago. So I would be surprised there, if anything, I mean, I think QC is one of these record labels that may be looking for an outside investor itself, but I'm not quite sure what the Motown relationship, just given the joint venture ownership there and how that may look, whether or not who the actual company is that owns, whether it's the brand or the artist or anything like that.


Moving forward from that. All right. Couple more questions here. So is music investing specifically, like in catalogs, is music investing still a good idea in 2023? And my answer is yes, but not in some of those 2021 pandemic era evaluations. And that's because I think what I liked about the catalog boom is that it brought awareness to something that I think a retail investors in the niche knew, but a lot of others weren't focusing on, is that there's a lot of value to be had with owning some of these catalogs because there's certain artists that I think do have the potential to just feel similar to a evergreen stock or something like that continues. Provide consistent revenue that isn't correlated with the economy time and time again. But I think there's a few things that happened that people may have missed. One, there is a decay curve with all of those assets. And even as much as people wanna tell you that the Beach Boys or Michael Jackson or the Beatles are timeless, everything has a decay curve. I mean, you could even go back, you know, decades, even. Frank Sinatra or Elvis. I know that you know that the movie that came out recently, but even folks like that, the discussions that are happening now about those people aren't anywhere near the type of discussions that you may have heard, at least when I was growing up, and that just shows you how much has changed in several decades since then. So, and I think the music listening would've probably aligned with that as well. So there's that, and I just think that the valuations that were being paid for a lot of these things probably just wouldn't happen again. One, because interest rates are nowhere near as low as they were, but I think even regardless of interest rates, there was a lot of overpaying for those assets just given the excitement. So smart on a lot of the artists for cashing out when they did and getting a lot of those returns because at least from what we've seen from a lot of the reports, You've seen some of these financial time stories talking about Hypnosis. And Hypnosis has at least from what the returns have been from their catalog has not been able to generate returns that a lot of the investors feel satisfied with and feel are in line with what they had, which is why I think you started to see more challenges there. There was almost an entire year period where the company didn't make an investment, and I think you've seen a lot of things ring true for others. There are still catalog sales happening. It just may not happen at the particular dollar amount that people wanted. For instance, there was Pink Floyd deal that was being talked about for a while. It's still being talked about. I believe they wanted $500 million, but based on some of the recent findings that had come out, the offers that they started to get were much smaller than they would've liked. So people are still interested in buying Pink Floyd. It may not be for the amount of money that the rights holders wanna sell it for, but there's still interest there, and I think that rings true all the way up and down the board. Listen, it wasn't even just music investing. The quarantine era of the pandemic led to a lot of sales for things happening that just probably wouldn't happen in the same way today. All right. Another question here is how does the globalization of hip hop Influence its business and cultural impact? And this question came from chat GPT. Someone had submitted this question and then it came back as, oh, what do you think is a good question to ask about the business of music or the business of hip hop? So this is a fun one. I know I've written about it a few times, but for the sake of brevity, I'll tackle it in two ways. First, A lot of the Western hip hop artists were able to reach a much bigger audience as a result of globalization, and I think it made it easier for some of them to launch global brands as a result. I look at folks like Rihanna and folks like Jay-Z. Look at some of the deals they've done with, whether it's ACE of Spades for Jay-Z, or the Fenty partnerships with Rihanna. These partnerships are tied in with European companies and there has to be some relevance for how big you are seen in Europe and other areas for those things to really have an impact. And I think you saw that compound as well. When you look at someone like Rihanna and Fenty Beauty, being able to enter Africa and just given the ethos of that brand being able to be inclusive and have shades for all skin tones, it makes perfect sense to be able to do it in Africa, which you just think about the beauty industry. This is an entire continent of people, especially women. Different complexion and skin tones that were largely overlooked by the many other major brands. So being able to have that influence there directly ties into an artist like Rihanna, you know, years, decades earlier, being able to tour in these places and being able to have her name out there, being able to be seen in that way. So I think it affects it from that perspective. And of course, Jay-Z, Rihanna are more so people at the top of that chain that are billionaires, but I think it really made a large impact on everyone else on the other side, I think it's made a huge impact on international artists too, because we've seen in so many other places that hip hop has truly been that connective tissue. It's really been that gateway that can help. Raise and elevate the voice of the unheard or elevate the voice of the people that may not have either gotten a chance to get their word out there or can really speak to some of the challenges that are happening. And that's the way that hip hop started. You look at Public Enemy, they saw themselves as the black CNN. They were trying to voice what's really happening. You listen to songs like Grandmaster Flash, The Message. This is what's going on in the streets of New York right now. And I think that if you listen to a lot of hip hop from other areas and you hear things translated, you're hearing a lot of that. And even someone like Bad Bunny, how he speaks about some of the challenges and the oppression that's happening in Latin America, or even things that are happening in Puerto Rico specifically, or even how we spoke out about disaster relief and even L G B T Q issues. It's not a coincidence that this is a hip hop artist that is doing this in their own language and that's happening. So I think we've just continued to see more and more influence and we'll continue to see how hip hop continues to be such a big driver. And it's not just Latin America. You're seeing it in France and you're seeing it elsewhere. And as globalization of music more broadly has made it more possible for artists in local languages to truly rise up. I think you're gonna see more and more of that coming from hip hop in a lot of those local language areas. All right. And the last question we have here is from Quai Bangs who asks, do I notice similarities in emerging artists that follow the start-up path to start-ups themselves? And I definitely do see a lot of those. And I like the question because I've been hearing so much from founders in the space and start-ups in other companies about two things. Truly identifying and seeing artists as founders, not just as the creative talent behind what they're doing, but they are the ones that are the founding person of this company that if successful as it can be, it'll be a company built around them to then help focus and really benefit and speak to their strengths and address their weaknesses as well. No different than a start-up would be who is that? Who are your co-founders that you're gonna find that may not be on the talent side, but can help with the business? Or if you wanna do it all yourself, who are the people that can be around you to at least help support in that way? And I think that you've seen some of those things happen, from time and time again. You look at the start of Dreamville, I very much do. Ibrahim Hamad and Jay Cole as two people that are in line with being able to do that and continuing to push forward, which I think has been pretty strong, seeing how they've been able to do that over the past decade. Plus, you look at any of these record labels and I think you're more likely than not going to see some type of tandem there. We talked about Quality Control. I think you see a lot of that too, and I think no different than a start-up may try to get equity for what they're doing. I think you're seeing certain artists start to explore this as well, whether they're trying to explore on chain, we're trying to sell tokens or they're trying to get a more formal structure in place. I recently had the investor, Cooper Turley, Cooper Tupa on the podcast, and he was talking about this as well, and how he's investing in companies that are looking at this investing artist specifically so that he can take an equity stake out of the artists themselves and be a bit, you know, less dilutive than a record label that may wanna take 80% of the cut moving forward in exchange for in advance. So there's plenty of trade-offs there. I think it's an interesting thing to continue to explore, but I think that it is a sign of what that path to the future looks like. Cuz I think that artists, our founders, at the end of the day, how they go about that, you know, is one thing or another. And who wears that CEO hat. Whether it's someone that artist proactively puts in place or it's someone. It ends up being at the record label that they signed to, or it's their manager. There's so many ways that these hats can be worn, so you'll be interested to see how it plays out. But wow, that was fun.


That was a quick bunch of rapid fire questions there, but this was really great. I hope you enjoyed it and I hope you enjoyed the podcast this year as well. Definitely continue to share it with anyone that you think would be in. And let me know if you have any other questions. We can keep this in mind. I wanna do these more regularly in general. So, yeah, if you're listening and you enjoyed this episode, send us a quick note, whether it's, you know, on social media or email. And then we'll keep them rolling so that the next time we do a mail bag podcast, we can keep it rolling.

]]> 2308 no Turnover at Motown, Berner's Billion-Dollar Weed Business, and Hip-Hop's Wealthiest of 2022 https://www.trapital.com/podcast This episode is a two-parter. At the top, I talk about the news at Motown Records with Ethiopia Habtemariam stepping down from her role as CEO and Chairwoman. After that, I talked to Zack O’Malley Greenburg about Hip-Hop’s wealthiest artists of 2022.  After years of compiling the list for Forbes, Zack O’Malley Greenburg released the 2022 edition independently. This time around, he used insights from Columbia Business School to better grasp on the wealth of the industry’s biggest moguls. Jay-Z tops the updated list with an estimated net worth of $1.5 billion. In second is the newly-minted billionaire Sean “Diddy” Combs. The rankings are rounded out by Ye ($500 million), Berner ($410 million), and Dr. Dre ($400 million).  Zack joined me on the episode to discuss the rankings, and two artists in particular — Diddy and Berner. Diddy has a portfolio of diversified assets that include media, music, spirits, and now cannabis. Berner is the biggest surprise of the top 5 but has quietly built a cannabis empire with a large runway for further growth. Here’s everything Zack and I covered on the show:  [13:56] Zack’s process behind putting the list together   [15:40] The newest billionaire on the list [16:41] The growth of Diddy’s DeLeon tequila brand [29:02] Sean John’s place in Diddy’s portfolio  [30:28] Diddy’s latest moves in cannabis and possibly Twitter  [32:45] The evolving business of REVOLT [36:19] Berner’s “surprise” $410 million net worth [31:50] High potential for Berner’s business [34:52] Berner’s business success supersedes his music fame  [39:50] Drake moving up the ranks  [43:50] Girl Dad stories Zack’s Hip-Hop’s Wealthiest Artists list for 2022: https://zogblog.substack.com/p/hip-hops-wealthiest-artists-2022 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog   Download The Culture Report here: https://trapital.ck.page/a23b7a6a4a   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:23] Dan Runcie: Hey, today's episode is a two parter. The first part of the episode, we're gonna do a breakdown on one of the more recent news that happened in the music industry. Motown Records CEO and Chairwoman Ethiopia Habtemariam has stepped down and there is a lot to unpack there. So we're gonna talk about that. And in the second half of this episode, we're joined by my guy Zack O'Malley Greenburg, and we are gonna talk about the recent list that he put out, which is his hip hop's 2022 list for the wealthiest artist. He has some new announcements, some usual names, and we break it all down. But first, let's start with the news at Motown. So it was last week, shortly after Thanksgiving. Ethiopia and Universal, and Motown announced that she will be stepping down from her role. This is a role that she has officially had at this level for just over a year and a half. I think it was March, 2021 that the role was announced, but she's essentially been the face of Motown from a leadership perspective for over a decade now and when the move happened, I think that there were a fair amount of people I could understand that could have been caught off guard by it. But when I start asking around, asking a few people questions who I know understand the situation pretty well, it's quick to see that what's being pushed publicly isn't quite reflecting what's actually happening behind closed doors. But before we get to all that, let's talk about some of the wins that I think Motown and Ethiopia have accomplished over the past decade, because I think these stand out and they're really important. I look at the 2015 joint venture deal that she did with quality control music, as one of those deals that can ultimately help bring a record label from its days of resting on its laurels to being able to get a bit more current. We've seen this happen time and time again. You look at Interscope in the early nineties. Interscope was a legacy rock and roll label. Jimmy Iovine was trying to figure out the next thing and then boom. Here comes Suge Knight. Here comes Dr. Dre and Death Row records comes through. Not only does Death Row continue to rise up with the supportive Interscope, but you also see Interscope adopt a bit of that cool factor and really revive itself, and now Interscope is continuing to be one of the strongest record labels that we have. You also saw that a few years later happened with Republic records and with cash money signs. The deal that I've talked about plenty of times on this podcast, that 1998 distribution deal and that deal did a lot for Baby and Slim, but it arguably did even more for Republic Records, which now I believe it's in its fourth year in a row, the leading industry or the leading record label in the industry when it comes to overall market share. And I do think that what quality control and Motown were able to do, do deserve some similar praise. But the slight difference here is that Motown for a lot of its time and even more so as we continue to learn, was saddled under the Capitol Music Group umbrella and didn't really have the opportunity to standalone as a true record label that could run on its own and be a standalone entity. The same way that we see with Interscope, the same way that you see with Republic. And some of the other record labels that are under the Universal Music Group umbrella. When the news first announced though, there wasn't as much chatter about Ethiopia's departure. You think about the times that Def Jam has turned over CEOs. There are think pieces on think piece. You can't get people to stop talking and sharing their opinions, and some of them on base, but people sharing their opinions about what Def Jam did and didn't do wrong, but there wasn't as much here. You saw a little bit in piece that Gail Mitchell at Billboard had done where I think she did a good breakdown. You could definitely read between the lines a little bit of some of the things that necessarily weren't being said, but what I think we started to unpack and what we started to get a sense for was, even though Motown had increased its market share considerably under Ethiopia's tenure, I believe back in 2017, it was around 0.4%. And as of most recently from what Billboard reported in 2022, it's at 0.95%. And that's great, more than double. And you think about how much more recorded music has grown from 2017 to 2022 now as well, that's a pretty huge growth and that's nothing to shy away from. The thing is, record label executives and the music industry aren't just judged on market share. You're judged on how efficient you are with what you do to acquire that market share. You're also judged on your ability to score deals and your ability to do it in a way that's efficient. Everyone still has a PNL at the end of the day. But I think the slight difference for some of these companies is that because they sit under the Universal Music Group umbrella, you may not necessarily know what's really happening unless you have a really discerning eye and you can put two and two together. And if you look at some of the moves that Motown has made over the years, there have been a number of big signings. But have those big signings always necessarily led to the type of results? You know, someone like Universal CEO, Lucian Green wants to see from a record label that now would be standing alone and no longer under the Capitol Music Group umbrella. You look at an artist like Lil Baby, who you know, through quality control, is part of that Motown collective. But, you needed a few more artists at that level and you needed to get them at affordable rates. And I think the biggest win that we saw from Motown in recent years was they recently signed NBA Young Boy. This is about a year after he started working with his record label, but how much did it cost to get NBA Young Boy? He had just posted on Instagram, this is two months before this deal was made public. He had just posted on Instagram, this was in August, 2022, that he was a 60 million dollar dude. You're saying you're a 60 million dude. A lot of people thought that was a cash money deal. They thought that was probably what Baby and Slim offered, but you later find out that this is what was coming from Motown, and I don't know if that's the number or not, but you can just assume a few things. One, NBA Young Boy was someone that just got out of his deal at Atlantic Records and he's getting out of his deal. This is the second most streamed artist according to HITS Daily Double for year to date for 2022. But as we also know about streams, not all streams are necessarily weighted the same, and those YouTube streams may not necessarily lead to the same payouts that you may get from the digital streaming providers. Your Spotify, your Apple music, your titles, your Amazon, and so forth. So you have that. You also mix that in with NBA Young Boy's audience isn't necessarily the type to go buy up a bunch of vinyl. They're not the type to go buy up a bunch of digital copies or then necessarily sell out an arena. And it's great that he has those streams, but he has those streams because he is dropping an album every other month. It's not the same as Columbia having a big release from Harry Styles and then monetizing the shit out of that. Or Kendrick Lamar having a big release on Interscope, and then that continues to do numbers and numbers. It's not the same type of thing in that way. So I think, even if you were able to win a bidding war, which is great, obviously a number of labels would've wanted to get NBA Young Boy. There's a certain price to everything, and even though we may not know the specific details, we can put two and two together. There are also a few other recent signings that could be called a bit into question. There were signings of Diddy and Brandy, and these are names that I think a lot of people, especially millennials and Gen X folks grew up with, and they're gonna be people who have done quite a bit in the music industry, but they're at a different stage in their career. They're hot. Their years of earning meaningful revenue for a record label aren't necessarily where they are at this particular point in their careers. That's okay. But does the price that was paid to get them, justify that. And I think there's kind of an unsaid thing where if you're signing someone who is already well off, they are likely doing this for their own choice, then it may cost a little bit more than an equivalent artist who could produce just as much from a revenue side as what you may expect from Diddy or Brandy moving forward if they don't have that name and that cache. And to be frank, the stability to not do a deal unless it's gonna be lucrative enough for them. And then you also have artists like Smino and Vince Staples who are talented at rap, and they definitely had the moment where you thought things were rising up, but they don't move units like that. And then it brings you back to the broader piece of what's happening, specifically with the JV, with quality control music. And I think that you've seen a lot of success there. Little Baby is one of the most successful artists that we've seen, but I think you just needed a few more artists, even Migos. I think that Migos in some ways from a commercial standpoint, peaked with that first culture album that came out. Culture two wasn't able to hit the same heights and Culture three definitely wasn't either. None of the solo artists were necessarily able to do that, and unfortunately there was some, you know, conflict between the Migos themselves. Takeoff is no longer with us. There's just a lot that just didn't exactly line up. It's really tough, and it's even tough to share it this way because I think one of the reasons you didn't hear a lot of chatter and discussion about this is a lot of people really wanted to see Ethiopia succeed, myself included. We wanna be able to see these black executives continue to reach the highest ranks that they can because we also wanna be able to see the same, whether it's toon feat at Def Jam or other. But the way that things are presented externally and this effort to necessarily hide things may have you thinking that these executives have more control and influence than they actually do. And they weren't necessarily given the same level of influence or control that John Janick may get at Interscope or that the Lipmans may have at Republic. So we really have to be honest when we're reporting these things and what we're showing and what we're not, because it does a disservice not only to the industry about, you know, trying to hide these things because listen. This is a place where there's plenty of people that are talented. People learn from where they can come through and it doesn't, and it isn't gonna hurt people the way that you think that it is. And one of the reasons that these things often can be controlled this way, the music's industry's PR machine can be so strong and it can have you having this, you know, Misconceived perception, and while I think insiders do know, there's a lot of folks who are on the outside that will eventually rise to those ranks who just don't necessarily have a clear picture. And anytime that there's that big of a delta, that's how information just doesn't necessarily get itself to the right people at once. And we wanna make sure that we're doing everything we can to empower the folks in the next generation. And I know a lot of this is swimming uphill. This is an industry that is controlled by a lot of lawyers, and it's an industry that really thrives on the PR of how things spin, but been behind closed doors. It's a very different situation. In some ways it's almost a stark difference to something like tech where so much of the drama and decisions that happen within big tech are happening. You know, out in the open you could see things and while some of that, you know, can be to a fault, I do think it leads in some ways to some better discussions around what success can look like and what opportunities can look like. So I hope we can all use this as a reminder to make sure that we're being transparent as we can. When we call things out, it helps more. Think and be able to have the right discussions about what success looks like, and the more that we can report on what success benchmarks actually are, so that you're not just relying on an imperfect key performance indicator like market share, and you're actually reporting on. Efficiency. It's great that someone landed a deal, but how much should it cost to get that artist assigned? And will that payout turn out the way that you think that it is? And at the end of the day, this is about PNLs. Are you bringing in enough profit to offset any of the loss? And is there future belief and potential in your ability to get the buy in, do it in an efficient way, and keep driving the business? Quite the buzz after Thanksgiving. We'll see what the rest of the year brings. I think things will be pretty quiet until things head into January. But with that, let's turn things over to the next part of the episode. Here's my conversation with Zach O'Malley Greenberg about the wealthiest hip hop artists in 2022. [00:13:06] Dan Runcie: All right. We have Zach O'Malley Greenberg back with us, who recently released Hip Hop's wealthiest List for 2020. Your second year doing this independently, by the way. So shout outs to you on that. And it was great to see the results. We had some expectations, Jay-Z, number one, but there's two people I really wanna dive into with this conversation. Let me just run through the list first. So you have Jay-Z, number one, one and a half billion. Diddy to newly minted billionaire, 1 billion. You have third, Yey at five hundred million dollars. 4th, Berner, 410 million. And then we have Dr. Dre at 400 million. So let's start at the top. What was it like for you, not just releasing this independently, but being able to put it out and as you were putting it together, what were some of the stuff that stuck out to you? [00:13:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. You know, first of all, this list is probably the thing that I put the most effort into every year. At the end of the day, you see these numbers, you know, 1.5 billion, they get reported. And it was the same in my days at Forbes, as doing it independently. People take the number, everyone with it. And I think a lot of times people just assume it's like, ah, somebody's pulling them, out of wherever. But you know, I would say I put more time into those numbers, than I have put into some cover stories, you know, that are several pages long. So it's going through each of these, you know, these superstars and figuring out, you know, what's in their portfolio. What is each asset worth calling? People, you know, who have knowledge, whether it's, you know, within the camps of the stars themselves, or industry experts that are covering, you know, the booze business or the weed business or something like that. Finding ways of valuing these assets. And, you know, and I think the new thing for me, aside from doing it independently was, I've been taking courses at Columbia Business School this year. I'm part of a fellowship where I sort of do my first year of business, school light, and get to bounce around and learn some of these concepts that, you know, maybe, I didn't know before I got to sharpen them. And it's given me some new tools for looking at things like Diddy, Ciroc Partnership and, you know, ways to value things that are a little bit weird and not sort of like a run of the mill asset. So, yeah, you know, I mean I think the big takeaway, the big surprise is probably Berner being on the list, being ahead of Dr. Dre. Like you said, I think Diddy being a billionaire, finally, you know, Diddy would say that's not news. You know, you would say that he should be higher. I'm sure it's been really cool to take a look at it, you know, independently and with some of these new tools in my toolkit to come up with, I would say my most active list. [00:15:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Well, that's good to hear. And I wanna talk about Diddy first because I feel like. That's the one. I'll be honest, the news there surprised me a bit, not because I didn't think that Diddy was a billionaire, but more so because of how his business is and how things are structured. And it made me wonder, okay, how much has changed? Because I knew that Ciroc was the main thing that he had, that was the one of the largest drivers of his net. But you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the sales had peaked around the mid 2010s and maybe there was a slight decline, but maybe, you might have more intel on that. And I know that revolt and I know that business there. And with Sean, Sean itself, I know he had sold it and bought it back. So I was a bit curious to see or maybe hear how much net worth changed as a result of something that had appreciated in value versus your calculations of how you'd be doing this now as opposed to maybe how you had done it years back? [00:16:41] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, so, you know, I think my methodology changed slightly. The breakdown isn't that much different. Ciroc is still the main component. You know, you could say safely, it's the slight majority of his 1 billion net worth. And it's a weird arrangement because he does not hold an equity stake. However, the deal is structured to emulate an equity stake because, you know, it wouldn't have worked as an equity stake cuz Ciroc is owned by Diageo, it's this giant public trade company. They couldn't really be like, Hey, here's, you know, a quarter of our company or something like that. There wasn't really anything to do with that. So it was more creating a framework around the Ciroc brand to function like an equity stake. So if Diageo were ever to sell Ciroc, Diddy would get, you know, let's say the proceeds after you back out the amount of money that Ciroc has put into the partnership. So, you know, it would be a lot. And there's no doubt that even if things have sort of flattened out a little, it's a multi-billion dollar brand. You know, I mean, if you look at something like Ketel One, you know, brands like that that have changed hands, you know, these are billion dollar brands and you know, Ciroc is I think number two behind Grey Goose. So it's up there. They're not gonna sell it, but if they did, you know, we're looking at a pretty big payday. So the question is how do you value something that isn't gonna get sold? And really, you know, you wanna really nerd out about it from sort of MBA type perspective. You know, thinking about valuing cash flow. That's, you know, one of the fundamentals of valuation in corporate finance and stuff like that. And, you know, there are formulas and without getting into like the, you know, sort of like more details of it where you can sort of enter assumptions into the formula and you can get a number. But basically what I did was I took the way I was doing it before I ran the numbers that way, and then I kind of did some pre cash analysis and kind of like average things out and any way you slice it, these Ciroc partnership is, you know, worth a little more than half of his, billion dollar valuation. The other things that, you know, I think perhaps I had been, you know, undercounted a little bit in the past or have appreciated. A lot since then, you know, revolt is still hanging around there. And that's another thing where the valuation could depend on you. Do you value it as, you know, sort of a, like a TV based entity, even though it's more digital? Do you value it as a news outlet? Do you value it as a tech startup? There are a bunch of different ways to look at it, but in any case, you know, he is the majority owner. Another thing that I think people sleep on is DeLeon tequila, that is really growing and he owns half of that. Actually. It's a 50-50 joint venture with the AIO and they're moving a hundred and something thousand cases a year now. Actually, you know, booze has done really well during the pandemic. You might imagine people, I don't know, I feel like we're back to, you know, some of our old ways of going out and doing things. People are drinking at home during the pandemic. So, you know, Ciroc and DeLeon didn't get hurt in the way that, let's say the live touring business did. So Diddy was pretty well slated there. And then you go through and he's got like a pretty immense art collection. He's got some real estate that's appreciated pretty rapidly over the past few years. You know, some of which he owns out, right? And, you know, you kind of add it all up. And, he's comfortably a billionaire. And yeah, I mean, if you notice like  you know, some folks when they hit that status or when they make the list or something, we'll kind of like to tweet about it. But, you know, I don't think I saw anything from Diddy because, you know, he's thought that he's a billionaire for, you know, years already. And, you know, maybe he was, but now I, I definitely think that he is and, I would expect, you know, to see other, let's say mainstream business outlets follow suit in, you know, kind of acknowledging what's definitely the attitude. [00:20:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah, appreciate the breakdown there and thinking about just like different categories there. If thinking about Ciroc itself, as you mentioned, maybe the sales flattened out a bit, but looking at revolts specifically, and I know that business has, you know, gone through some evolutions as well over the past few years, would it be safe to assume that the biggest valuation change here for Diddy's assets that maybe brought him to a billion is daily owned and some of the artwork in terms of like what's appreciated? If we assume that whether it's Ciroc or Revolt have flattened out a bit. Like would those be the ones you say that had put him over 1 billion?  [00:21:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, you know, he was pretty close before, last time I did it before was, I think it was three years ago. I think he was at 740. You know, personally, you know, without getting too deep into it, I would've put 'em a little higher. But, you know, you get your files. I did. And that spar deal and you know, you gotta create a consensus. And I think, you know, and Forbes always says it, it would rather be conservative about valuations that it would rather understand an overstate, but you know, so that's part of it too. Yeah, I think there's definitely been an appreciation in the value of DeLeon the real estate, you know, there's a lot of startup stakes, and he's not doing it as, let's say publicly as, Nas or Jay-Z, but, you know, he definitely hops in as an angel in a lot of, a lot of startups that, that have done well. So, but, you know, yeah, I think DeLeon doesn't get the glory of Ciroc, but you know, it's a younger company. There's more room to grow. And not to be a shit, but it actually tastes really good. I've tasted other, you know, celebrity tequilas and they're not good, but it is a tasty booze, if I may say so myself. And I think the way that he launched it was that he found this sort of, you know, like a boutique brand that had already won some awards and then he kind of got in with Diageo and, and they boosted. To where it is now. So I really think that's probably like where you could see a lot more growth, if he's gonna start to try to challenge Jay-Z for that. [00:22:53] Dan Runcie: Why do you think that DLleon hasn't gotten that same amount of love that Ciroc has gotten, at least publicly? [00:23:00] Zack Greenburg: I think a lot of attention was focused on, you know, like Casamigos or some of the other really big brands and it hadn't quite gotten to that level with the same, you know, distribution and mind share. And, you know, frankly, I mean, I think Diddy has been devoting more energy to Ciroc, but you know, you're starting to see it, you know, it's a little bit less in your base kind of vibe with the brand. it's like more of a sipping thing, less of the shots at the club kind of thing. Although I'm sure, you know, you could sit either or do shots at either at the club. But I think it's just not around as much. I mean, I think the case volume on Ciroc is still like 10 times more than 10 times as high as DeLeon. So, you're just not gonna see it around as much. And I think that's why. [00:23:51] Dan Runcie: And the other thing too, that you mentioned is that DeLeon itself is actually a joint venture with Diageo, unlike Ciroc Partnership. So of course I know that the Ciroc partnership, now we're talking 15 plus years ago at this point when things kicked off and different positions, different leverage and relationships. So I wonder if the relationship is part of the reason why Diddy was able to have the type of ownership. Partnership with DeLeon that he may not have, at least in writing with Ciroc?  [00:24:23] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think so. And I think that was part of his motivation, for how he structured DeLeon. He wanted to have that. Actual equity stake, you know, like ironclad 50-50 joint venture type thing, rather than an agreement that mimics a joint venture. So, you know, I think that the success of Ciroc definitely convinced Diageo like, all right,, we can do this with another brand. He's the guy. And, for my book, 3 Kings, I talked to some books over there and you know, I think I talked to the CEO at the time, and they couldn't have been more abusive about him. And of course, you know, like whatever, he's part of their team. Of course they're gonna say good things about him, but they were saying just like the attention to detail. Like he would, he would go to clubs and, you know, go to the bartender and be like, why is the Ciroc not on the top shelf? And what are you going to do? You're gonna be like, oh, sorry Mr. Coles gonna leave Joe here. You know, and they'll put it up on the top. I mean, it's sort of like a retail politics level of stuff. And you know, I always say that, that Diddy, you know, in a way, like you could argue. Who has had the most scheduled career and you know, who's the goat of, you know, on the business side. And you know, I think a lot of people would say Jay-Z, and they wouldn't be wrong. But, you know, I think Diddy in a way has done more with less because he hasn't been musically relevant in, you know, a really long time in that way. Still puts stuff out in whatever, but it's not like the anticipation that exists when Jay drops an album or even a verse on, you know, on a DJ Khaled song or something. And, you know, I always like to say that Diddy is kinda more like Richard Branson if he happened to just have had, you know, like a moment as like a big time rapper And you know, certainly as a producer, he's had ahead a lot of things. And not to diminish that, but he acknowledges himself. He says, I don't write rhymes, I write checks. And I think that's a strong student. I think it's especially impressive to see that he's done it without being particularly talented.  [00:26:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think that, His true line of being able to sell a lifestyle is what sets him apart in a lot of ways. He did it with his music. I think in a lot of ways. Bad Boys modeled after so much of what he learned at Uptown, and then you're able to transfer that lifestyle to, okay, this is the music that you listen to now. This is what you wear while you wear Sean John. This is what you drink while you're listening to this, right? Mm-hmm, you're gonna drink and this is the media that you're gonna watch. Now with the cannabis line that he just bought, this is what you're gonna smoke while you're enjoying this lifestyle too. Mm-hmm. And I think that a lot of those businesses have had varying success and we can go into that, but I do think that the ones that have been the most successful, Ciroc, Sean and the music, there's that tight connection and there's a key timing aspect that goes into all of it. [00:27:35] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and it doesn't even need to be his music. Right? That is popular in order for the Ciroc Formula to work, it's the Ciroc Boys, it's DJ Khaled, Summer Watermelon, or whatever it is. You know, I think his ability to make those partnerships, to find other people you know, who are kind of doing now what he was doing then musically are, you know, I think that that's part of the formula and that's why it works so well. And you know, I mean, it's funny, like DJ Khaled, you know, something like Wild Thoughts was doing exactly what Diddy was doing a couple decades ago, right? He was taking a song from a couple decades, you know, one or two decades ago and putting, you know, some new voices, the modern voices on it. And it was a song that was great before and now it's got, you know, like more kind of a vibe to it and you know, goes off the chart, so I think Diddy is just very savvy with that kind of stuff, even if it's stuff.  [00:28:31] Dan Runcie: Let's talk about Sean John for a bit, cause I'm curious how that factored into your methodology with everything, because as many people know, he started the brand over 20 years ago and well, in 2016 he sold the brand, then the brand was up in auction, and then he bought it for public number I saw was 7.6 million. So now he has that back as an asset. How did that piece of it factor in for you and just the journey overall of Sean?  [00:29:02] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and not much now. You know, I mean, I think what factored in more was, sort of like his cash pile. Like he sold it for. Like, whatever it was five years ago, something like that. I think he got, he got 30 million out, 40 million, something like that, that he then put into other things. And uh, you know, obviously without him it doesn't do well. And so he went bankrupt and I think it's really smart for him to buy it back. You know, who knows what he might end up doing with this, but, I think there's just,  you know, like a tremendous market for sort of like nineties nostalgia right now. You know, I think Sean John, or even a Rocawear, if they could have, I dunno, that's a little more complicated, but I think that, you know, if he's at the helm and his part as a lifestyle, Would never count him out. So, but yeah, as far as what it's worth right now, it's sort of more of a rounding error and overall number. But, you know, be interesting to see what comes. [00:30:04] Dan Runcie: And when you made your list around the same time, I believe that same week, there were two other announcements that came up. One was the cannabis company that he bought for, I believe it was 185 million. And the other one, I don't know if this one was a hundred percent confirmed, but did you see that thing floating around about him making an investment in Twitter along with Elon Musk's bid? [00:30:28] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, no, you know that was all after the numbers got finalized, so, you know, those weren't really factored into it. But you know, I mean, yeah, it all makes sense. It's all part of the lifestyle thing. It's all part of the Diddy empire, the Diddy MO, and you know, he's look, I mean, on the cannabis side, right? Like he's puff daddy, you know, like what are, what are you puffing? It's exactly, it makes sense. It's like part of the brand. And, you know, if he could do the same thing with cannabis leaders with vodka, Which is to say like, I mean, I don't know. I think when he started vodka was not, you know, it was not really seen as a stylish thing. It was more like, you do a shot to get drunk. I mean, I don't know, maybe that's physics. I was in college when that happened, and that's when, that's sort of the vibe on vodka. But he made it like the champagne of vodkas. He associated his lifestyle with it and similarly, I think with weed, it's like, you know, we're in this very nascent part of the canvas economy, you know, becoming legal and, and sort of how do you start to differentiate brands, you know, and when you have legalization you can have, you know, like. The champagne of weed, right? You can start to differentiate, you know, like what type of buzz you're gonna get because it's regulated and you can actually say like, this is the thing that has this much THC and it's gonna give you this kind of high, versus like, this is just gonna knock you on your ass. I think it's a great place for him to get into, but you know, at the same time it's like, It is a really hard place to do business still. And you know, it is not without risk. It, you know, because it is not federally legal yet. You have to do, you have to do most of your business in cash. You can't get loans in the same way, especially if you have a plant touching enterprise. You have to do all these, handle all these different state regulations, which are constantly changing and are subject to the whims of, you know, clinical races and you know, potentially gerrymandering, all kinds of stuff that has nothing to do with Diddy. So, you know, I think that's the tricky part. And you know, also not being a first mover in the way that somebody like Berner is. But at the same time, it's like, you know, he fills a different niche in the mark potentially than Berner does.  [00:32:45] Dan Runcie: And yeah, no, that'll be fascinating to watch. Yeah. I think the thing about Revolt is a great concept in the vision, of course. Makes sense. Seeing how influential Diddy was with MTV and whether it's the voter die shirts that he would wear or some of the other programming, he leveraged it so well as a hip hop artist. So if you know you have that impact, why wouldn't you wanna go start your own company and go do the same? Right. I think some of the timing just became a little tough in that he started the cable network in 2013. People are already starting to cut the cord at that point. And then I know the company's transitioned much more into digital media, but even that, given that so much of it is social media based, relying on other platforms and their algorithms, I think we saw so many of those companies in that same timeframe, even the ones that were perceived as being successful, whether it's your Buzzfeed or your Huffington Post or your Complex, like all of those valuations came back down to earth. And you look at a company like Revolt, which I think was largely playing the same game, although I think they still make tons of great content and there are tons of great, brilliant people working there. I think that the digital media itself and where things transformed was a bit tough. Like let's say that Diddy had started let's say 2007 as opposed to 2013, I think we'd be having a very different conversation,  [00:34:03] Zack Greenburg: You know, or 1997 , you know, I mean, yeah. I think it could be a whole different conversation and, you know, yeah. That's one of the smaller pieces of the empire, and I think, like you would say, he would make a certain argument about it and, you know, valuing it more like on the line of being a tech company. But it's hard to escape the fact that it, you know, it still. I would say yeah, like primarily a media outlet point and whether it's, you know, via cable or the internet or whatever, it's like these are not, like, these are kind of tricky places to be, but you know, it does make sense. There is a demand for that kind of stuff and it's a crowded marketplace, but, you know, he does have something different to offer and, you know, I think that there's a reason why it's still around and, you know, it'll be interesting to see how it goes, how it proceeds as we enter like the next phase of this sort of media shake up in a amount of time. [00:35:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And I think the other thing too, that I should have mentioned earlier is that given that this is a black owned media company, I know he's been vocal and Byron Allen and others have been vocal about advertisers not contributing the same level of money into black owned media companies that they would to, let's say, some of the Revolts competitors in the space that maybe started and run by white founders, white executives, but they're commanding more money from that perspective. So I think that's another tough thing there. But overall, like we said, this is a small piece of the overall pie. And yeah, it'd be interesting too. Especially the newer businesses, how many of them can continue that Ciroc magic, the bad boy flavor? And see? See where that lifestyle keeps going? Yeah. All right. Now let's talk about the other big one on the list, Berner. And based on the response that I saw from people sharing the list of people talking about it, this is the one that surprised a lot of people. But I know it didn't surprise you because you've been following this for a while. You've been talking to Berner, getting a better understanding of his business. So it'd be great to hear the breakdown because I think a lot of people out there may know Berner now more so for this product than they may actually know his music or anything else that he's done in hip hop up to now. [00:36:19] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I think Berner is one of the most fascinating names on the list. Definitely the most surprising. But, you know, I've been following his work for a while and, you know, he is a master marketer and his whole journey about how he turned cookies, cannabis, You know, it is a billion dollar company and it's just a little tricky to value, but, it is a billion dollar company and the way he did it, you know, I would say it's a case study, but it's actually pretty hard to emulate. It is sort of like a singular way of doing things. So, you know, for the people who don't know the background, Bernard born in California and San Francisco grew up there, moved to Arizona as a teenager and, and would bring back good weed from California when, whenever, you know, would make trips back to his old stomping grounds. And that's how he kind of got his start. He moved back to San Francisco, during the early, you know, weed legalization gold. Worked at a dispensary and, you know, kind of popularized this Girl Scout cookie, strain of weed. And so his thing would, at the dispensary, he would, you know, they used to sell things. It was sort of like an index car with the name of the strain. It was very clinical. But he would sort of like do these doodles and cookies and, you know, these like bright colors and stuff. And, and it started to get some tension. He became, you know, Wiz Khalifa's weed man when he was in San Francisco. And on one occasion brought this fully butted six foot tall weed plant onto the stage at Khalifa's show. And, you know, I think it was sort of instrumental in that Khalifa had created the Khalifa kush and all this. And so Bernard ultimately parlayed this sort of underground, you know, weed connoisseur image that he had as both on the legal and illegal markets into this brand. Cookies started opening stores, created a clothing line that, you know, kind of goes along with it. But the thing that he did with the way he set up this company is pretty, pretty unusual and very hard to value, but I think is quite brilliant. He started striking these partnerships with dispensaries and, you know, essentially it was a licensing deal where he would get a cut of revenue. And then the other part of the deal is that he could also buy out any of these partners. At market rate, at a time in the future, you know, in the future to be determined. And you know, like some of these numbers are out there, but you know, I think the system-wide sales are close to half a billion dollars now. And he gets a cut of that. But you know, at any time he could decide to roll all you could raise money, roll all these partnerships up into one giant weed company that's, you know, making. You know that, that kind of revenue and, and suddenly, you know, all you need to do is you put a multiple on that and, and that'll tell you what the company would be. If he rolled it all up and bought everybody out. And I talked to Wall Street analysts about this and covered the space and they said, you know, yeah, you could put like a five x multiple on this, so that would mean it's you know, yeah, like about a $2 billion company. Then you have to factor in the cost of buying out all those partnerships. You know, long story short would probably be about half billion dollars because it is a very tricky business. In fact, you have to be very liquid when doing everything in cash. It's kind of complicated. People I talked to, you know, bankers and stuff, said, yeah, you would apply a private company discount due to the uncertainty of the market, things like that, that's operating in it, you know, you would knock 20, 30% off of that and you know, so that it brings it down to around a billion dollars and then Berner still owns about a third of it. And so there's the bulk of his fortune right there, you know, so his stake is probably worth around $300 million. This point, I figure. And I think that's pretty conservative. You know, you add in some other thing invested in the clothing line, which he owns, you know, a huge part of still, you know, some homes, cash stuff like. And you get to that 400, 2 million number. [00:40:27] Dan Runcie: Nice. Yeah, I've been seeing people wearing the cookies hoodies, walking around San Francisco, walking around other places. But definitely seeing the apparel thing push and I feel like he has one of those brands there are probably seeing even more of that stuff. I think it was a couple weeks ago I was driving by and I saw the store in Hate Ashbury neighborhood here at San Francisco. So yeah, no, definitely making moves. A few things there that stuck out. So he of course has his own standalone stores. As you mentioned, there's 55 of them across the country right now. And he also was selling them to other dispensaries. And I'm sure if and when weed does become legalized across the country, that will then just make things even easier from a distribution perspective from other places that he may be able to sell any otherwise. So in some ways the investment isn't just based on what's currently there or there's also a speculative nature. As this underlying product becomes more and more legal, there will be more opportunity to further sell this and further have its reach to different places.  [00: 41:36] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And the clothing line also builds the value of the cannabis brand. And you know, if and when it is federally legalized, you gotta think. I mean, you know, this is one of the top brands in the business. And in fact, you know, there aren't really brands in this way in the cannabis space. There's strains, it's almost saying like in beer, you know, like, yeah, people like IPAs or people like those or whatever, but there isn't really like a Budweiser yet or a dogfish head, you know, or something like that. And, you know, to go back to Diddy, there's not really a champagne of weed. So, you know, I think that Berner has built up all this credibility in this space and, you know, if, when it goes legal, it's like to be one of the top weed brands in this space that is going to, you know, potentially rival or, you know, at least kind of start to eat into alcohol business. I mean, you know, 2 billion is not a large number for a company. There's a lot of potential for it to get a lot bigger and, you know, we can get into the whole. There's definitely a lot of arguments, pros and cons, about the benefits of THC and Cannabis General. And, you know, we will be here all day on that. But just from a business perspective, you know, it seems like we're headed toward legalization. Berner actually thinks that republicans are more likely to make federal legalization happen. He said, cause they're all about their paper. So I'm not saying who he's voting for anything. I don't. You know. it was an interesting perspective and, you know, like I think that he's really got kind of the key to where….. [00:43:15] Dan Runcie: One of the other things that sticks out to me about him is that he's someone who is much more known, at least on a general awareness perspective, for the business that he's built as opposed to the music. I feel like his music was a bit more of a regional thing and he puts out a ton of music, but it never hit the same levels as some of the other artists who are having nine figure net worths as well. And I feel like there's often this thought, and which I do believe generally is true, that the artists who tend to be the most successful with product sales and investing and some of the more lucrative business opportunities that artists have done, they're more likely to be the household names who have been releasing music and touring for decades than a lot of times it's because they're releasing products that are lending their names, so they're leveraging their influence to now sell things that have a larger stake in and can be bought time and time again. He's a little different though because he doesn't necessarily have that. I'm curious what you think about that piece of it, because I think so many of the hip hop cash lists over the years do have at least somewhat of a correlation as to who are the more well known artists or who are the more popular artists at the time, and not necessarily who is building the strongest business, you know, that is being worth the most, and that is not correlated with how much mainstream popularity that artists may have. [00:44:44] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. I mean the funny thing is when you look at it, he is the most prolific artist on the list. But, you know, he has the least name recognition as well, right? I mean, Jay-Z, Diddy, Kanye, Dr. Dre, none of them are putting out music at the pace with which Berner is putting out music. But everybody knows who they are and not everybody knows Berner. You know, I think you could almost argue like, well, are you really gonna put him, you know, on the list with these guys who have that much more name recognition? But you could also argue, should we really be treating, you know, Diddy as a rapper anymore than we should be? You know, treating Richard Branson, as I know Richard Branson didn't actually rap ever, but, you know, effectively Diddy is just focused on business at this point and you know, he puts out songs here and there. Music is an ancillary Berner also used. You know, the Music Chief boosts the weed business, but he's in the studio like all the time, more than any of these guys. Yeah, it's just kinda fun. [00:45:48] Dan Runcie: I think another person that maybe thought of a similar way, someone like Chamillionaire who had one really large hit, mm-hmm. But wasn't necessarily known for having classic after classic after classic album or touring the world in the same large ways as some of the other big names we did, but his investing journey is something that has been pretty well documented and I think as a result, he's definitely further than a lot of the other artists that came around the same time as him that may have had even more commercial success. So I feel like even though there is a lot of a correlation between who are the most well known artists and who are the wealthiest artists, he is someone else who is a bit similar in that Berner way of, hey, yeah, there may have a smaller overall impact from the music itself, but was able to wisely use that and then now leverage that into something where, you know, the artist is making more money from the business moves and more known for that now.  [00:46:49] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. I mean a great example of Chamillionaire and, you know, the work that he's been doing in the startup world. So at the same time, it's like if he hadn't had that one day hit, you know, would he have been able to get into, you know, the Silicon Valley kind of fear in the same way, you know, I don't know, but I think all it takes is one hit to be in the mix. And certainly like Burner never had that one hit, right? He just had a lot of, you know, really solid albums and stuff, but he was doing it in San Francisco. And I think, you know, in that way that you see somebody like Jamon Green getting really involved in the startup world, would he have been that guy if he were in, you know, like Cleveland or something? You know, I don't think so, but if you're in the mix, in the Bay Area, you're just gonna have access to a lot more opportunities, you know, in the startup world. And I think the startup world, cannabis world, you know, it. Kinda the epicenter. So in a funny way that the two have a lot of commonalities I think are familiar. [00:47:51] Dan Runcie: Yeah. This is good. I'm excited to see what next year's list looks like as well. And I know you may not be able to share publicly, but in order to get the five, you probably evaluated a few others. Are there any names creeping up, arising up that you think may make a  2023 appearance? [00:48:08] Zack Greenburg: I think, you know, Drake is creep enough, big new deal. You know, he doesn't have quite the same level of, you know, sort of like outside assets. Like he doesn't have, like a Ciroc or a cookie or what have you. And, you know, I think he does have this whiskey, Virginia Black, but it's like, never like still around, but it never really took off and it only tastes okay. It's okay. I don't think taste ultimately matters a lot of times with this stuff, but I'm kind of surprised that he wasn't able to like boost a little bit more. But I don't know. When I think Drake, I don't really think whiskey. Maybe that's just part of it. I mean, I could see him with more champagne maybe.  [00:48:51] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I'm interested to see for him how this new deal he has and the music that he makes as a result ends up factoring in, because of course we know that music itself may not be the largest revenue stream for a lot of these artists. Drake has this huge deal with Universal and Republic now, and he's releasing music more frequently than ever, and we can assume that it's likely because he's getting better upside and margins for the music he's releasing. So if he keeps up at this, like two, three albums a year clip. I mean, the numbers are gonna speak for themselves. Last year he streamed more than all pre 1980 artists. Like it's gonna catch up.  [00:49:29] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. I think the other thing with net worth less as opposed to. Is that, you know, it's just harder to get on these lists if you are a big cash earner. Like if you are earning a lot on an annual basis, you know, things get factored into that, like taxes and cost of living and all that. And so, you know, you're getting these huge outlays, but you know, it's not in the same way that it was like going into this, this growing asset that can be valued. And in a way that's kind of like a quirk of the system because, you know, I'm valuing Berner’s stake in cookies, you know, like it's not tax, right? Like  if he were to sell it and he were to get $300 million, you know, whatever, a third half of that would be gone to the government. But that's not baked into the formula until he sells it. So you know, this is how Bloomberg and Forbes do it. It's just kinda what it is. But, it means that if you are holding assets, you know, the taxes aren't taken out. Whereas if you're a cash earner, that gets deducted before it gets added to your cash pile. So, it just means Drake is more likely to be at the top of, you know, let's say top earning artist. And you know, it's a little harder for him to get to the top… [00:50:59] Dan Runcie: That's a great distinction. No, we'll definitely keep that in mind for next year. Do you think you'll do another top earners of the year list as well? [00:51:05] Zack Greenburg: I don't know. Maybe, we'll see how it goes. Being a new dad, and doing this full time program, you know, this fellowship at Columbia that I mention. It takes a lot of time. And you know, I don't wanna put out a list unless I have the time to really dig in and get the numbers right. But yeah, you never know. I got this one out. So, there could be more. More to come. [00:51:28] Dan Runcie: And I think on that note, just talking about dad life in general. Let's close things out there. So by the time this comes out, your daughter will be six months old and we can both share one funny thing that our kids did this past couple weeks. So I'll let you start. [00:51:44 ] Zack Greenburg: Oh, man. Well, I think the thing that's really most exciting is that she's laughing now and the thing that she mainly thinks is funny is when I'm laughing. So like, we'll get into this thing, I will make myself start laughing and then she'll go, ha ha. I go, ha. And, and it’s very dorky, dad life. But, that is like one of my favorite things to do is have like, sort of a laugh off with Riley. So, yeah, I don't know, man. I pick her up from daycare every day and she just gives me this huge smile and I know that she’s still really young, but I can tell that she's specifically recognizing me, you know, and that we have this bond already. That there's like a specific connection. I just had no idea that babies could sort of, like, differentiate people and start to have unique relationships in that way. And that, it's like the best part of my day every day. So…  [00:52:41] Dan Runcie: That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. How about you?  [00:52:42] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. How about you?  [00:52:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like there's something about that. Like yeah, the first couple of months I remember I would like, ask my wife, I'd be like, you think she recognizes us? Like, because she understands who we are. And I think over time there was like, yeah, no, we can get that in. Even things like now, The mirror is something that she is obsessed with. I'm sure you probably feel the same with Riley too. But yeah, the mirror. At first it was kind of looking at the mirror where there's like, okay, what is this screen? Who is that person that I'm seeing? But I think now it's like looking at us through the mirror and like seeing that it's us. And maybe she's starting to be like, oh well, I see them through this. Like she probably still isn't at the point where it's like, oh, I can see that's looking at me. But she'll look at that other person staring at her in the mirror and start smiling and stuff too. So I'm like, oh, that's cute. So yeah, man. Wild time's flying by. She'll be five months by the time this comes out. Wild man.  [00:52:35] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. . Yeah. Yeah. We do a lot of like…. [00:53:38] Dan Runcie: oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where's that? Little, little peek-a-boo style games.  [00:53:42] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. In the mirror. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We'll have to have our kids together sometime soon. I guess, you know, but of course babies, not so interactive with each other yet. [00:53:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No. We'll get there. That'll be fun. Zack. This is great, man. Good work as always. It was great to see the list and again. The fact that I think you got just as much coverage and buzz and recognition for this, doing it independently is a great sign. Not just for you, but I think in general for people that are always questioning, okay, you know, what's the power of what I do elsewhere versus individually. So great job on that and we'll definitely keep tabs on this coming years. But great work, man, as always. Appreciate that. [00:54:25] Zack Greenburg: Thanks man. Same to you. Thu, 08 Dec 2022 09:00:00 -0000 Turnover at Motown, Berner's Billion-Dollar Weed Business, and Hip-Hop's Wealthiest of 2022 full Dan Runcie This episode is a two-parter. At the top, I talk about the news at Motown Records with Ethiopia Habtemariam stepping down from her role as CEO and Chairwoman. After that, I talked to Zack O’Malley Greenburg about Hip-Hop’s wealthiest artists of 2022.  After years of compiling the list for Forbes, Zack O’Malley Greenburg released the 2022 edition independently. This time around, he used insights from Columbia Business School to better grasp on the wealth of the industry’s biggest moguls. Jay-Z tops the updated list with an estimated net worth of $1.5 billion. In second is the newly-minted billionaire Sean “Diddy” Combs. The rankings are rounded out by Ye ($500 million), Berner ($410 million), and Dr. Dre ($400 million).  Zack joined me on the episode to discuss the rankings, and two artists in particular — Diddy and Berner. Diddy has a portfolio of diversified assets that include media, music, spirits, and now cannabis. Berner is the biggest surprise of the top 5 but has quietly built a cannabis empire with a large runway for further growth. Here’s everything Zack and I covered on the show:  [13:56] Zack’s process behind putting the list together   [15:40] The newest billionaire on the list [16:41] The growth of Diddy’s DeLeon tequila brand [29:02] Sean John’s place in Diddy’s portfolio  [30:28] Diddy’s latest moves in cannabis and possibly Twitter  [32:45] The evolving business of REVOLT [36:19] Berner’s “surprise” $410 million net worth [31:50] High potential for Berner’s business [34:52] Berner’s business success supersedes his music fame  [39:50] Drake moving up the ranks  [43:50] Girl Dad stories Zack’s Hip-Hop’s Wealthiest Artists list for 2022: https://zogblog.substack.com/p/hip-hops-wealthiest-artists-2022 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog   Download The Culture Report here: https://trapital.ck.page/a23b7a6a4a   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. [00:00:23] Dan Runcie: Hey, today's episode is a two parter. The first part of the episode, we're gonna do a breakdown on one of the more recent news that happened in the music industry. Motown Records CEO and Chairwoman Ethiopia Habtemariam has stepped down and there is a lot to unpack there. So we're gonna talk about that. And in the second half of this episode, we're joined by my guy Zack O'Malley Greenburg, and we are gonna talk about the recent list that he put out, which is his hip hop's 2022 list for the wealthiest artist. He has some new announcements, some usual names, and we break it all down. But first, let's start with the news at Motown. So it was last week, shortly after Thanksgiving. Ethiopia and Universal, and Motown announced that she will be stepping down from her role. This is a role that she has officially had at this level for just over a year and a half. I think it was March, 2021 that the role was announced, but she's essentially been the face of Motown from a leadership perspective for over a decade now and when the move happened, I think that there were a fair amount of people I could understand that could have been caught off guard by it. But when I start asking around, asking a few people questions who I know understand the situation pretty well, it's quick to see that what's being pushed publicly isn't quite reflecting what's actually happening behind closed doors. But before we get to all that, let's talk about some of the wins that I think Motown and Ethiopia have accomplished over the past decade, because I think these stand out and they're really important. I look at the 2015 joint venture deal that she did with quality control music, as one of those deals that can ultimately help bring a record label from its days of resting on its laurels to being able to get a bit more current. We've seen this happen time and time again. You look at Interscope in the early nineties. Interscope was a legacy rock and roll label. Jimmy Iovine was trying to figure out the next thing and then boom. Here comes Suge Knight. Here comes Dr. Dre and Death Row records comes through. Not only does Death Row continue to rise up with the supportive Interscope, but you also see Interscope adopt a bit of that cool factor and really revive itself, and now Interscope is continuing to be one of the strongest record labels that we have. You also saw that a few years later happened with Republic records and with cash money signs. The deal that I've talked about plenty of times on this podcast, that 1998 distribution deal and that deal did a lot for Baby and Slim, but it arguably did even more for Republic Records, which now I believe it's in its fourth year in a row, the leading industry or the leading record label in the industry when it comes to overall market share. And I do think that what quality control and Motown were able to do, do deserve some similar praise. But the slight difference here is that Motown for a lot of its time and even more so as we continue to learn, was saddled under the Capitol Music Group umbrella and didn't really have the opportunity to standalone as a true record label that could run on its own and be a standalone entity. The same way that we see with Interscope, the same way that you see with Republic. And some of the other record labels that are under the Universal Music Group umbrella. When the news first announced though, there wasn't as much chatter about Ethiopia's departure. You think about the times that Def Jam has turned over CEOs. There are think pieces on think piece. You can't get people to stop talking and sharing their opinions, and some of them on base, but people sharing their opinions about what Def Jam did and didn't do wrong, but there wasn't as much here. You saw a little bit in piece that Gail Mitchell at Billboard had done where I think she did a good breakdown. You could definitely read between the lines a little bit of some of the things that necessarily weren't being said, but what I think we started to unpack and what we started to get a sense for was, even though Motown had increased its market share considerably under Ethiopia's tenure, I believe back in 2017, it was around 0.4%. And as of most recently from what Billboard reported in 2022, it's at 0.95%. And that's great, more than double. And you think about how much more recorded music has grown from 2017 to 2022 now as well, that's a pretty huge growth and that's nothing to shy away from. The thing is, record label executives and the music industry aren't just judged on market share. You're judged on how efficient you are with what you do to acquire that market share. You're also judged on your ability to score deals and your ability to do it in a way that's efficient. Everyone still has a PNL at the end of the day. But I think the slight difference for some of these companies is that because they sit under the Universal Music Group umbrella, you may not necessarily know what's really happening unless you have a really discerning eye and you can put two and two together. And if you look at some of the moves that Motown has made over the years, there have been a number of big signings. But have those big signings always necessarily led to the type of results? You know, someone like Universal CEO, Lucian Green wants to see from a record label that now would be standing alone and no longer under the Capitol Music Group umbrella. You look at an artist like Lil Baby, who you know, through quality control, is part of that Motown collective. But, you needed a few more artists at that level and you needed to get them at affordable rates. And I think the biggest win that we saw from Motown in recent years was they recently signed NBA Young Boy. This is about a year after he started working with his record label, but how much did it cost to get NBA Young Boy? He had just posted on Instagram, this is two months before this deal was made public. He had just posted on Instagram, this was in August, 2022, that he was a 60 million dollar dude. You're saying you're a 60 million dude. A lot of people thought that was a cash money deal. They thought that was probably what Baby and Slim offered, but you later find out that this is what was coming from Motown, and I don't know if that's the number or not, but you can just assume a few things. One, NBA Young Boy was someone that just got out of his deal at Atlantic Records and he's getting out of his deal. This is the second most streamed artist according to HITS Daily Double for year to date for 2022. But as we also know about streams, not all streams are necessarily weighted the same, and those YouTube streams may not necessarily lead to the same payouts that you may get from the digital streaming providers. Your Spotify, your Apple music, your titles, your Amazon, and so forth. So you have that. You also mix that in with NBA Young Boy's audience isn't necessarily the type to go buy up a bunch of vinyl. They're not the type to go buy up a bunch of digital copies or then necessarily sell out an arena. And it's great that he has those streams, but he has those streams because he is dropping an album every other month. It's not the same as Columbia having a big release from Harry Styles and then monetizing the shit out of that. Or Kendrick Lamar having a big release on Interscope, and then that continues to do numbers and numbers. It's not the same type of thing in that way. So I think, even if you were able to win a bidding war, which is great, obviously a number of labels would've wanted to get NBA Young Boy. There's a certain price to everything, and even though we may not know the specific details, we can put two and two together. There are also a few other recent signings that could be called a bit into question. There were signings of Diddy and Brandy, and these are names that I think a lot of people, especially millennials and Gen X folks grew up with, and they're gonna be people who have done quite a bit in the music industry, but they're at a different stage in their career. They're hot. Their years of earning meaningful revenue for a record label aren't necessarily where they are at this particular point in their careers. That's okay. But does the price that was paid to get them, justify that. And I think there's kind of an unsaid thing where if you're signing someone who is already well off, they are likely doing this for their own choice, then it may cost a little bit more than an equivalent artist who could produce just as much from a revenue side as what you may expect from Diddy or Brandy moving forward if they don't have that name and that cache. And to be frank, the stability to not do a deal unless it's gonna be lucrative enough for them. And then you also have artists like Smino and Vince Staples who are talented at rap, and they definitely had the moment where you thought things were rising up, but they don't move units like that. And then it brings you back to the broader piece of what's happening, specifically with the JV, with quality control music. And I think that you've seen a lot of success there. Little Baby is one of the most successful artists that we've seen, but I think you just needed a few more artists, even Migos. I think that Migos in some ways from a commercial standpoint, peaked with that first culture album that came out. Culture two wasn't able to hit the same heights and Culture three definitely wasn't either. None of the solo artists were necessarily able to do that, and unfortunately there was some, you know, conflict between the Migos themselves. Takeoff is no longer with us. There's just a lot that just didn't exactly line up. It's really tough, and it's even tough to share it this way because I think one of the reasons you didn't hear a lot of chatter and discussion about this is a lot of people really wanted to see Ethiopia succeed, myself included. We wanna be able to see these black executives continue to reach the highest ranks that they can because we also wanna be able to see the same, whether it's toon feat at Def Jam or other. But the way that things are presented externally and this effort to necessarily hide things may have you thinking that these executives have more control and influence than they actually do. And they weren't necessarily given the same level of influence or control that John Janick may get at Interscope or that the Lipmans may have at Republic. So we really have to be honest when we're reporting these things and what we're showing and what we're not, because it does a disservice not only to the industry about, you know, trying to hide these things because listen. This is a place where there's plenty of people that are talented. People learn from where they can come through and it doesn't, and it isn't gonna hurt people the way that you think that it is. And one of the reasons that these things often can be controlled this way, the music's industry's PR machine can be so strong and it can have you having this, you know, Misconceived perception, and while I think insiders do know, there's a lot of folks who are on the outside that will eventually rise to those ranks who just don't necessarily have a clear picture. And anytime that there's that big of a delta, that's how information just doesn't necessarily get itself to the right people at once. And we wanna make sure that we're doing everything we can to empower the folks in the next generation. And I know a lot of this is swimming uphill. This is an industry that is controlled by a lot of lawyers, and it's an industry that really thrives on the PR of how things spin, but been behind closed doors. It's a very different situation. In some ways it's almost a stark difference to something like tech where so much of the drama and decisions that happen within big tech are happening. You know, out in the open you could see things and while some of that, you know, can be to a fault, I do think it leads in some ways to some better discussions around what success can look like and what opportunities can look like. So I hope we can all use this as a reminder to make sure that we're being transparent as we can. When we call things out, it helps more. Think and be able to have the right discussions about what success looks like, and the more that we can report on what success benchmarks actually are, so that you're not just relying on an imperfect key performance indicator like market share, and you're actually reporting on. Efficiency. It's great that someone landed a deal, but how much should it cost to get that artist assigned? And will that payout turn out the way that you think that it is? And at the end of the day, this is about PNLs. Are you bringing in enough profit to offset any of the loss? And is there future belief and potential in your ability to get the buy in, do it in an efficient way, and keep driving the business? Quite the buzz after Thanksgiving. We'll see what the rest of the year brings. I think things will be pretty quiet until things head into January. But with that, let's turn things over to the next part of the episode. Here's my conversation with Zach O'Malley Greenberg about the wealthiest hip hop artists in 2022. [00:13:06] Dan Runcie: All right. We have Zach O'Malley Greenberg back with us, who recently released Hip Hop's wealthiest List for 2020. Your second year doing this independently, by the way. So shout outs to you on that. And it was great to see the results. We had some expectations, Jay-Z, number one, but there's two people I really wanna dive into with this conversation. Let me just run through the list first. So you have Jay-Z, number one, one and a half billion. Diddy to newly minted billionaire, 1 billion. You have third, Yey at five hundred million dollars. 4th, Berner, 410 million. And then we have Dr. Dre at 400 million. So let's start at the top. What was it like for you, not just releasing this independently, but being able to put it out and as you were putting it together, what were some of the stuff that stuck out to you? [00:13:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. You know, first of all, this list is probably the thing that I put the most effort into every year. At the end of the day, you see these numbers, you know, 1.5 billion, they get reported. And it was the same in my days at Forbes, as doing it independently. People take the number, everyone with it. And I think a lot of times people just assume it's like, ah, somebody's pulling them, out of wherever. But you know, I would say I put more time into those numbers, than I have put into some cover stories, you know, that are several pages long. So it's going through each of these, you know, these superstars and figuring out, you know, what's in their portfolio. What is each asset worth calling? People, you know, who have knowledge, whether it's, you know, within the camps of the stars themselves, or industry experts that are covering, you know, the booze business or the weed business or something like that. Finding ways of valuing these assets. And, you know, and I think the new thing for me, aside from doing it independently was, I've been taking courses at Columbia Business School this year. I'm part of a fellowship where I sort of do my first year of business, school light, and get to bounce around and learn some of these concepts that, you know, maybe, I didn't know before I got to sharpen them. And it's given me some new tools for looking at things like Diddy, Ciroc Partnership and, you know, ways to value things that are a little bit weird and not sort of like a run of the mill asset. So, yeah, you know, I mean I think the big takeaway, the big surprise is probably Berner being on the list, being ahead of Dr. Dre. Like you said, I think Diddy being a billionaire, finally, you know, Diddy would say that's not news. You know, you would say that he should be higher. I'm sure it's been really cool to take a look at it, you know, independently and with some of these new tools in my toolkit to come up with, I would say my most active list. [00:15:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Well, that's good to hear. And I wanna talk about Diddy first because I feel like. That's the one. I'll be honest, the news there surprised me a bit, not because I didn't think that Diddy was a billionaire, but more so because of how his business is and how things are structured. And it made me wonder, okay, how much has changed? Because I knew that Ciroc was the main thing that he had, that was the one of the largest drivers of his net. But you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the sales had peaked around the mid 2010s and maybe there was a slight decline, but maybe, you might have more intel on that. And I know that revolt and I know that business there. And with Sean, Sean itself, I know he had sold it and bought it back. So I was a bit curious to see or maybe hear how much net worth changed as a result of something that had appreciated in value versus your calculations of how you'd be doing this now as opposed to maybe how you had done it years back? [00:16:41] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, so, you know, I think my methodology changed slightly. The breakdown isn't that much different. Ciroc is still the main component. You know, you could say safely, it's the slight majority of his 1 billion net worth. And it's a weird arrangement because he does not hold an equity stake. However, the deal is structured to emulate an equity stake because, you know, it wouldn't have worked as an equity stake cuz Ciroc is owned by Diageo, it's this giant public trade company. They couldn't really be like, Hey, here's, you know, a quarter of our company or something like that. There wasn't really anything to do with that. So it was more creating a framework around the Ciroc brand to function like an equity stake. So if Diageo were ever to sell Ciroc, Diddy would get, you know, let's say the proceeds after you back out the amount of money that Ciroc has put into the partnership. So, you know, it would be a lot. And there's no doubt that even if things have sort of flattened out a little, it's a multi-billion dollar brand. You know, I mean, if you look at something like Ketel One, you know, brands like that that have changed hands, you know, these are billion dollar brands and you know, Ciroc is I think number two behind Grey Goose. So it's up there. They're not gonna sell it, but if they did, you know, we're looking at a pretty big payday. So the question is how do you value something that isn't gonna get sold? And really, you know, you wanna really nerd out about it from sort of MBA type perspective. You know, thinking about valuing cash flow. That's, you know, one of the fundamentals of valuation in corporate finance and stuff like that. And, you know, there are formulas and without getting into like the, you know, sort of like more details of it where you can sort of enter assumptions into the formula and you can get a number. But basically what I did was I took the way I was doing it before I ran the numbers that way, and then I kind of did some pre cash analysis and kind of like average things out and any way you slice it, these Ciroc partnership is, you know, worth a little more than half of his, billion dollar valuation. The other things that, you know, I think perhaps I had been, you know, undercounted a little bit in the past or have appreciated. A lot since then, you know, revolt is still hanging around there. And that's another thing where the valuation could depend on you. Do you value it as, you know, sort of a, like a TV based entity, even though it's more digital? Do you value it as a news outlet? Do you value it as a tech startup? There are a bunch of different ways to look at it, but in any case, you know, he is the majority owner. Another thing that I think people sleep on is DeLeon tequila, that is really growing and he owns half of that. Actually. It's a 50-50 joint venture with the AIO and they're moving a hundred and something thousand cases a year now. Actually, you know, booze has done really well during the pandemic. You might imagine people, I don't know, I feel like we're back to, you know, some of our old ways of going out and doing things. People are drinking at home during the pandemic. So, you know, Ciroc and DeLeon didn't get hurt in the way that, let's say the live touring business did. So Diddy was pretty well slated there. And then you go through and he's got like a pretty immense art collection. He's got some real estate that's appreciated pretty rapidly over the past few years. You know, some of which he owns out, right? And, you know, you kind of add it all up. And, he's comfortably a billionaire. And yeah, I mean, if you notice like  you know, some folks when they hit that status or when they make the list or something, we'll kind of like to tweet about it. But, you know, I don't think I saw anything from Diddy because, you know, he's thought that he's a billionaire for, you know, years already. And, you know, maybe he was, but now I, I definitely think that he is and, I would expect, you know, to see other, let's say mainstream business outlets follow suit in, you know, kind of acknowledging what's definitely the attitude. [00:20:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah, appreciate the breakdown there and thinking about just like different categories there. If thinking about Ciroc itself, as you mentioned, maybe the sales flattened out a bit, but looking at revolts specifically, and I know that business has, you know, gone through some evolutions as well over the past few years, would it be safe to assume that the biggest valuation change here for Diddy's assets that maybe brought him to a billion is daily owned and some of the artwork in terms of like what's appreciated? If we assume that whether it's Ciroc or Revolt have flattened out a bit. Like would those be the ones you say that had put him over 1 billion?  [00:21:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, you know, he was pretty close before, last time I did it before was, I think it was three years ago. I think he was at 740. You know, personally, you know, without getting too deep into it, I would've put 'em a little higher. But, you know, you get your files. I did. And that spar deal and you know, you gotta create a consensus. And I think, you know, and Forbes always says it, it would rather be conservative about valuations that it would rather understand an overstate, but you know, so that's part of it too. Yeah, I think there's definitely been an appreciation in the value of DeLeon the real estate, you know, there's a lot of startup stakes, and he's not doing it as, let's say publicly as, Nas or Jay-Z, but, you know, he definitely hops in as an angel in a lot of, a lot of startups that, that have done well. So, but, you know, yeah, I think DeLeon doesn't get the glory of Ciroc, but you know, it's a younger company. There's more room to grow. And not to be a shit, but it actually tastes really good. I've tasted other, you know, celebrity tequilas and they're not good, but it is a tasty booze, if I may say so myself. And I think the way that he launched it was that he found this sort of, you know, like a boutique brand that had already won some awards and then he kind of got in with Diageo and, and they boosted. To where it is now. So I really think that's probably like where you could see a lot more growth, if he's gonna start to try to challenge Jay-Z for that. [00:22:53] Dan Runcie: Why do you think that DLleon hasn't gotten that same amount of love that Ciroc has gotten, at least publicly? [00:23:00] Zack Greenburg: I think a lot of attention was focused on, you know, like Casamigos or some of the other really big brands and it hadn't quite gotten to that level with the same, you know, distribution and mind share. And, you know, frankly, I mean, I think Diddy has been devoting more energy to Ciroc, but you know, you're starting to see it, you know, it's a little bit less in your base kind of vibe with the brand. it's like more of a sipping thing, less of the shots at the club kind of thing. Although I'm sure, you know, you could sit either or do shots at either at the club. But I think it's just not around as much. I mean, I think the case volume on Ciroc is still like 10 times more than 10 times as high as DeLeon. So, you're just not gonna see it around as much. And I think that's why. [00:23:51] Dan Runcie: And the other thing too, that you mentioned is that DeLeon itself is actually a joint venture with Diageo, unlike Ciroc Partnership. So of course I know that the Ciroc partnership, now we're talking 15 plus years ago at this point when things kicked off and different positions, different leverage and relationships. So I wonder if the relationship is part of the reason why Diddy was able to have the type of ownership. Partnership with DeLeon that he may not have, at least in writing with Ciroc?  [00:24:23] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think so. And I think that was part of his motivation, for how he structured DeLeon. He wanted to have that. Actual equity stake, you know, like ironclad 50-50 joint venture type thing, rather than an agreement that mimics a joint venture. So, you know, I think that the success of Ciroc definitely convinced Diageo like, all right,, we can do this with another brand. He's the guy. And, for my book, 3 Kings, I talked to some books over there and you know, I think I talked to the CEO at the time, and they couldn't have been more abusive about him. And of course, you know, like whatever, he's part of their team. Of course they're gonna say good things about him, but they were saying just like the attention to detail. Like he would, he would go to clubs and, you know, go to the bartender and be like, why is the Ciroc not on the top shelf? And what are you going to do? You're gonna be like, oh, sorry Mr. Coles gonna leave Joe here. You know, and they'll put it up on the top. I mean, it's sort of like a retail politics level of stuff. And you know, I always say that, that Diddy, you know, in a way, like you could argue. Who has had the most scheduled career and you know, who's the goat of, you know, on the business side. And you know, I think a lot of people would say Jay-Z, and they wouldn't be wrong. But, you know, I think Diddy in a way has done more with less because he hasn't been musically relevant in, you know, a really long time in that way. Still puts stuff out in whatever, but it's not like the anticipation that exists when Jay drops an album or even a verse on, you know, on a DJ Khaled song or something. And, you know, I always like to say that Diddy is kinda more like Richard Branson if he happened to just have had, you know, like a moment as like a big time rapper And you know, certainly as a producer, he's had ahead a lot of things. And not to diminish that, but he acknowledges himself. He says, I don't write rhymes, I write checks. And I think that's a strong student. I think it's especially impressive to see that he's done it without being particularly talented.  [00:26:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think that, His true line of being able to sell a lifestyle is what sets him apart in a lot of ways. He did it with his music. I think in a lot of ways. Bad Boys modeled after so much of what he learned at Uptown, and then you're able to transfer that lifestyle to, okay, this is the music that you listen to now. This is what you wear while you wear Sean John. This is what you drink while you're listening to this, right? Mm-hmm, you're gonna drink and this is the media that you're gonna watch. Now with the cannabis line that he just bought, this is what you're gonna smoke while you're enjoying this lifestyle too. Mm-hmm. And I think that a lot of those businesses have had varying success and we can go into that, but I do think that the ones that have been the most successful, Ciroc, Sean and the music, there's that tight connection and there's a key timing aspect that goes into all of it. [00:27:35] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and it doesn't even need to be his music. Right? That is popular in order for the Ciroc Formula to work, it's the Ciroc Boys, it's DJ Khaled, Summer Watermelon, or whatever it is. You know, I think his ability to make those partnerships, to find other people you know, who are kind of doing now what he was doing then musically are, you know, I think that that's part of the formula and that's why it works so well. And you know, I mean, it's funny, like DJ Khaled, you know, something like Wild Thoughts was doing exactly what Diddy was doing a couple decades ago, right? He was taking a song from a couple decades, you know, one or two decades ago and putting, you know, some new voices, the modern voices on it. And it was a song that was great before and now it's got, you know, like more kind of a vibe to it and you know, goes off the chart, so I think Diddy is just very savvy with that kind of stuff, even if it's stuff.  [00:28:31] Dan Runcie: Let's talk about Sean John for a bit, cause I'm curious how that factored into your methodology with everything, because as many people know, he started the brand over 20 years ago and well, in 2016 he sold the brand, then the brand was up in auction, and then he bought it for public number I saw was 7.6 million. So now he has that back as an asset. How did that piece of it factor in for you and just the journey overall of Sean?  [00:29:02] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and not much now. You know, I mean, I think what factored in more was, sort of like his cash pile. Like he sold it for. Like, whatever it was five years ago, something like that. I think he got, he got 30 million out, 40 million, something like that, that he then put into other things. And uh, you know, obviously without him it doesn't do well. And so he went bankrupt and I think it's really smart for him to buy it back. You know, who knows what he might end up doing with this, but, I think there's just,  you know, like a tremendous market for sort of like nineties nostalgia right now. You know, I think Sean John, or even a Rocawear, if they could have, I dunno, that's a little more complicated, but I think that, you know, if he's at the helm and his part as a lifestyle, Would never count him out. So, but yeah, as far as what it's worth right now, it's sort of more of a rounding error and overall number. But, you know, be interesting to see what comes. [00:30:04] Dan Runcie: And when you made your list around the same time, I believe that same week, there were two other announcements that came up. One was the cannabis company that he bought for, I believe it was 185 million. And the other one, I don't know if this one was a hundred percent confirmed, but did you see that thing floating around about him making an investment in Twitter along with Elon Musk's bid? [00:30:28] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, no, you know that was all after the numbers got finalized, so, you know, those weren't really factored into it. But you know, I mean, yeah, it all makes sense. It's all part of the lifestyle thing. It's all part of the Diddy empire, the Diddy MO, and you know, he's look, I mean, on the cannabis side, right? Like he's puff daddy, you know, like what are, what are you puffing? It's exactly, it makes sense. It's like part of the brand. And, you know, if he could do the same thing with cannabis leaders with vodka, Which is to say like, I mean, I don't know. I think when he started vodka was not, you know, it was not really seen as a stylish thing. It was more like, you do a shot to get drunk. I mean, I don't know, maybe that's physics. I was in college when that happened, and that's when, that's sort of the vibe on vodka. But he made it like the champagne of vodkas. He associated his lifestyle with it and similarly, I think with weed, it's like, you know, we're in this very nascent part of the canvas economy, you know, becoming legal and, and sort of how do you start to differentiate brands, you know, and when you have legalization you can have, you know, like. The champagne of weed, right? You can start to differentiate, you know, like what type of buzz you're gonna get because it's regulated and you can actually say like, this is the thing that has this much THC and it's gonna give you this kind of high, versus like, this is just gonna knock you on your ass. I think it's a great place for him to get into, but you know, at the same time it's like, It is a really hard place to do business still. And you know, it is not without risk. It, you know, because it is not federally legal yet. You have to do, you have to do most of your business in cash. You can't get loans in the same way, especially if you have a plant touching enterprise. You have to do all these, handle all these different state regulations, which are constantly changing and are subject to the whims of, you know, clinical races and you know, potentially gerrymandering, all kinds of stuff that has nothing to do with Diddy. So, you know, I think that's the tricky part. And you know, also not being a first mover in the way that somebody like Berner is. But at the same time, it's like, you know, he fills a different niche in the mark potentially than Berner does.  [00:32:45] Dan Runcie: And yeah, no, that'll be fascinating to watch. Yeah. I think the thing about Revolt is a great concept in the vision, of course. Makes sense. Seeing how influential Diddy was with MTV and whether it's the voter die shirts that he would wear or some of the other programming, he leveraged it so well as a hip hop artist. So if you know you have that impact, why wouldn't you wanna go start your own company and go do the same? Right. I think some of the timing just became a little tough in that he started the cable network in 2013. People are already starting to cut the cord at that point. And then I know the company's transitioned much more into digital media, but even that, given that so much of it is social media based, relying on other platforms and their algorithms, I think we saw so many of those companies in that same timeframe, even the ones that were perceived as being successful, whether it's your Buzzfeed or your Huffington Post or your Complex, like all of those valuations came back down to earth. And you look at a company like Revolt, which I think was largely playing the same game, although I think they still make tons of great content and there are tons of great, brilliant people working there. I think that the digital media itself and where things transformed was a bit tough. Like let's say that Diddy had started let's say 2007 as opposed to 2013, I think we'd be having a very different conversation,  [00:34:03] Zack Greenburg: You know, or 1997 , you know, I mean, yeah. I think it could be a whole different conversation and, you know, yeah. That's one of the smaller pieces of the empire, and I think, like you would say, he would make a certain argument about it and, you know, valuing it more like on the line of being a tech company. But it's hard to escape the fact that it, you know, it still. I would say yeah, like primarily a media outlet point and whether it's, you know, via cable or the internet or whatever, it's like these are not, like, these are kind of tricky places to be, but you know, it does make sense. There is a demand for that kind of stuff and it's a crowded marketplace, but, you know, he does have something different to offer and, you know, I think that there's a reason why it's still around and, you know, it'll be interesting to see how it goes, how it proceeds as we enter like the next phase of this sort of media shake up in a amount of time. [00:35:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And I think the other thing too, that I should have mentioned earlier is that given that this is a black owned media company, I know he's been vocal and Byron Allen and others have been vocal about advertisers not contributing the same level of money into black owned media companies that they would to, let's say, some of the Revolts competitors in the space that maybe started and run by white founders, white executives, but they're commanding more money from that perspective. So I think that's another tough thing there. But overall, like we said, this is a small piece of the overall pie. And yeah, it'd be interesting too. Especially the newer businesses, how many of them can continue that Ciroc magic, the bad boy flavor? And see? See where that lifestyle keeps going? Yeah. All right. Now let's talk about the other big one on the list, Berner. And based on the response that I saw from people sharing the list of people talking about it, this is the one that surprised a lot of people. But I know it didn't surprise you because you've been following this for a while. You've been talking to Berner, getting a better understanding of his business. So it'd be great to hear the breakdown because I think a lot of people out there may know Berner now more so for this product than they may actually know his music or anything else that he's done in hip hop up to now. [00:36:19] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I think Berner is one of the most fascinating names on the list. Definitely the most surprising. But, you know, I've been following his work for a while and, you know, he is a master marketer and his whole journey about how he turned cookies, cannabis, You know, it is a billion dollar company and it's just a little tricky to value, but, it is a billion dollar company and the way he did it, you know, I would say it's a case study, but it's actually pretty hard to emulate. It is sort of like a singular way of doing things. So, you know, for the people who don't know the background, Bernard born in California and San Francisco grew up there, moved to Arizona as a teenager and, and would bring back good weed from California when, whenever, you know, would make trips back to his old stomping grounds. And that's how he kind of got his start. He moved back to San Francisco, during the early, you know, weed legalization gold. Worked at a dispensary and, you know, kind of popularized this Girl Scout cookie, strain of weed. And so his thing would, at the dispensary, he would, you know, they used to sell things. It was sort of like an index car with the name of the strain. It was very clinical. But he would sort of like do these doodles and cookies and, you know, these like bright colors and stuff. And, and it started to get some tension. He became, you know, Wiz Khalifa's weed man when he was in San Francisco. And on one occasion brought this fully butted six foot tall weed plant onto the stage at Khalifa's show. And, you know, I think it was sort of instrumental in that Khalifa had created the Khalifa kush and all this. And so Bernard ultimately parlayed this sort of underground, you know, weed connoisseur image that he had as both on the legal and illegal markets into this brand. Cookies started opening stores, created a clothing line that, you know, kind of goes along with it. But the thing that he did with the way he set up this company is pretty, pretty unusual and very hard to value, but I think is quite brilliant. He started striking these partnerships with dispensaries and, you know, essentially it was a licensing deal where he would get a cut of revenue. And then the other part of the deal is that he could also buy out any of these partners. At market rate, at a time in the future, you know, in the future to be determined. And you know, like some of these numbers are out there, but you know, I think the system-wide sales are close to half a billion dollars now. And he gets a cut of that. But you know, at any time he could decide to roll all you could raise money, roll all these partnerships up into one giant weed company that's, you know, making. You know that, that kind of revenue and, and suddenly, you know, all you need to do is you put a multiple on that and, and that'll tell you what the company would be. If he rolled it all up and bought everybody out. And I talked to Wall Street analysts about this and covered the space and they said, you know, yeah, you could put like a five x multiple on this, so that would mean it's you know, yeah, like about a $2 billion company. Then you have to factor in the cost of buying out all those partnerships. You know, long story short would probably be about half billion dollars because it is a very tricky business. In fact, you have to be very liquid when doing everything in cash. It's kind of complicated. People I talked to, you know, bankers and stuff, said, yeah, you would apply a private company discount due to the uncertainty of the market, things like that, that's operating in it, you know, you would knock 20, 30% off of that and you know, so that it brings it down to around a billion dollars and then Berner still owns about a third of it. And so there's the bulk of his fortune right there, you know, so his stake is probably worth around $300 million. This point, I figure. And I think that's pretty conservative. You know, you add in some other thing invested in the clothing line, which he owns, you know, a huge part of still, you know, some homes, cash stuff like. And you get to that 400, 2 million number. [00:40:27] Dan Runcie: Nice. Yeah, I've been seeing people wearing the cookies hoodies, walking around San Francisco, walking around other places. But definitely seeing the apparel thing push and I feel like he has one of those brands there are probably seeing even more of that stuff. I think it was a couple weeks ago I was driving by and I saw the store in Hate Ashbury neighborhood here at San Francisco. So yeah, no, definitely making moves. A few things there that stuck out. So he of course has his own standalone stores. As you mentioned, there's 55 of them across the country right now. And he also was selling them to other dispensaries. And I'm sure if and when weed does become legalized across the country, that will then just make things even easier from a distribution perspective from other places that he may be able to sell any otherwise. So in some ways the investment isn't just based on what's currently there or there's also a speculative nature. As this underlying product becomes more and more legal, there will be more opportunity to further sell this and further have its reach to different places.  [00: 41:36] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And the clothing line also builds the value of the cannabis brand. And you know, if and when it is federally legalized, you gotta think. I mean, you know, this is one of the top brands in the business. And in fact, you know, there aren't really brands in this way in the cannabis space. There's strains, it's almost saying like in beer, you know, like, yeah, people like IPAs or people like those or whatever, but there isn't really like a Budweiser yet or a dogfish head, you know, or something like that. And, you know, to go back to Diddy, there's not really a champagne of weed. So, you know, I think that Berner has built up all this credibility in this space and, you know, if, when it goes legal, it's like to be one of the top weed brands in this space that is going to, you know, potentially rival or, you know, at least kind of start to eat into alcohol business. I mean, you know, 2 billion is not a large number for a company. There's a lot of potential for it to get a lot bigger and, you know, we can get into the whole. There's definitely a lot of arguments, pros and cons, about the benefits of THC and Cannabis General. And, you know, we will be here all day on that. But just from a business perspective, you know, it seems like we're headed toward legalization. Berner actually thinks that republicans are more likely to make federal legalization happen. He said, cause they're all about their paper. So I'm not saying who he's voting for anything. I don't. You know. it was an interesting perspective and, you know, like I think that he's really got kind of the key to where….. [00:43:15] Dan Runcie: One of the other things that sticks out to me about him is that he's someone who is much more known, at least on a general awareness perspective, for the business that he's built as opposed to the music. I feel like his music was a bit more of a regional thing and he puts out a ton of music, but it never hit the same levels as some of the other artists who are having nine figure net worths as well. And I feel like there's often this thought, and which I do believe generally is true, that the artists who tend to be the most successful with product sales and investing and some of the more lucrative business opportunities that artists have done, they're more likely to be the household names who have been releasing music and touring for decades than a lot of times it's because they're releasing products that are lending their names, so they're leveraging their influence to now sell things that have a larger stake in and can be bought time and time again. He's a little different though because he doesn't necessarily have that. I'm curious what you think about that piece of it, because I think so many of the hip hop cash lists over the years do have at least somewhat of a correlation as to who are the more well known artists or who are the more popular artists at the time, and not necessarily who is building the strongest business, you know, that is being worth the most, and that is not correlated with how much mainstream popularity that artists may have. [00:44:44] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. I mean the funny thing is when you look at it, he is the most prolific artist on the list. But, you know, he has the least name recognition as well, right? I mean, Jay-Z, Diddy, Kanye, Dr. Dre, none of them are putting out music at the pace with which Berner is putting out music. But everybody knows who they are and not everybody knows Berner. You know, I think you could almost argue like, well, are you really gonna put him, you know, on the list with these guys who have that much more name recognition? But you could also argue, should we really be treating, you know, Diddy as a rapper anymore than we should be? You know, treating Richard Branson, as I know Richard Branson didn't actually rap ever, but, you know, effectively Diddy is just focused on business at this point and you know, he puts out songs here and there. Music is an ancillary Berner also used. You know, the Music Chief boosts the weed business, but he's in the studio like all the time, more than any of these guys. Yeah, it's just kinda fun. [00:45:48] Dan Runcie: I think another person that maybe thought of a similar way, someone like Chamillionaire who had one really large hit, mm-hmm. But wasn't necessarily known for having classic after classic after classic album or touring the world in the same large ways as some of the other big names we did, but his investing journey is something that has been pretty well documented and I think as a result, he's definitely further than a lot of the other artists that came around the same time as him that may have had even more commercial success. So I feel like even though there is a lot of a correlation between who are the most well known artists and who are the wealthiest artists, he is someone else who is a bit similar in that Berner way of, hey, yeah, there may have a smaller overall impact from the music itself, but was able to wisely use that and then now leverage that into something where, you know, the artist is making more money from the business moves and more known for that now.  [00:46:49] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. I mean a great example of Chamillionaire and, you know, the work that he's been doing in the startup world. So at the same time, it's like if he hadn't had that one day hit, you know, would he have been able to get into, you know, the Silicon Valley kind of fear in the same way, you know, I don't know, but I think all it takes is one hit to be in the mix. And certainly like Burner never had that one hit, right? He just had a lot of, you know, really solid albums and stuff, but he was doing it in San Francisco. And I think, you know, in that way that you see somebody like Jamon Green getting really involved in the startup world, would he have been that guy if he were in, you know, like Cleveland or something? You know, I don't think so, but if you're in the mix, in the Bay Area, you're just gonna have access to a lot more opportunities, you know, in the startup world. And I think the startup world, cannabis world, you know, it. Kinda the epicenter. So in a funny way that the two have a lot of commonalities I think are familiar. [00:47:51] Dan Runcie: Yeah. This is good. I'm excited to see what next year's list looks like as well. And I know you may not be able to share publicly, but in order to get the five, you probably evaluated a few others. Are there any names creeping up, arising up that you think may make a  2023 appearance? [00:48:08] Zack Greenburg: I think, you know, Drake is creep enough, big new deal. You know, he doesn't have quite the same level of, you know, sort of like outside assets. Like he doesn't have, like a Ciroc or a cookie or what have you. And, you know, I think he does have this whiskey, Virginia Black, but it's like, never like still around, but it never really took off and it only tastes okay. It's okay. I don't think taste ultimately matters a lot of times with this stuff, but I'm kind of surprised that he wasn't able to like boost a little bit more. But I don't know. When I think Drake, I don't really think whiskey. Maybe that's just part of it. I mean, I could see him with more champagne maybe.  [00:48:51] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I'm interested to see for him how this new deal he has and the music that he makes as a result ends up factoring in, because of course we know that music itself may not be the largest revenue stream for a lot of these artists. Drake has this huge deal with Universal and Republic now, and he's releasing music more frequently than ever, and we can assume that it's likely because he's getting better upside and margins for the music he's releasing. So if he keeps up at this, like two, three albums a year clip. I mean, the numbers are gonna speak for themselves. Last year he streamed more than all pre 1980 artists. Like it's gonna catch up.  [00:49:29] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. I think the other thing with net worth less as opposed to. Is that, you know, it's just harder to get on these lists if you are a big cash earner. Like if you are earning a lot on an annual basis, you know, things get factored into that, like taxes and cost of living and all that. And so, you know, you're getting these huge outlays, but you know, it's not in the same way that it was like going into this, this growing asset that can be valued. And in a way that's kind of like a quirk of the system because, you know, I'm valuing Berner’s stake in cookies, you know, like it's not tax, right? Like  if he were to sell it and he were to get $300 million, you know, whatever, a third half of that would be gone to the government. But that's not baked into the formula until he sells it. So you know, this is how Bloomberg and Forbes do it. It's just kinda what it is. But, it means that if you are holding assets, you know, the taxes aren't taken out. Whereas if you're a cash earner, that gets deducted before it gets added to your cash pile. So, it just means Drake is more likely to be at the top of, you know, let's say top earning artist. And you know, it's a little harder for him to get to the top… [00:50:59] Dan Runcie: That's a great distinction. No, we'll definitely keep that in mind for next year. Do you think you'll do another top earners of the year list as well? [00:51:05] Zack Greenburg: I don't know. Maybe, we'll see how it goes. Being a new dad, and doing this full time program, you know, this fellowship at Columbia that I mention. It takes a lot of time. And you know, I don't wanna put out a list unless I have the time to really dig in and get the numbers right. But yeah, you never know. I got this one out. So, there could be more. More to come. [00:51:28] Dan Runcie: And I think on that note, just talking about dad life in general. Let's close things out there. So by the time this comes out, your daughter will be six months old and we can both share one funny thing that our kids did this past couple weeks. So I'll let you start. [00:51:44 ] Zack Greenburg: Oh, man. Well, I think the thing that's really most exciting is that she's laughing now and the thing that she mainly thinks is funny is when I'm laughing. So like, we'll get into this thing, I will make myself start laughing and then she'll go, ha ha. I go, ha. And, and it’s very dorky, dad life. But, that is like one of my favorite things to do is have like, sort of a laugh off with Riley. So, yeah, I don't know, man. I pick her up from daycare every day and she just gives me this huge smile and I know that she’s still really young, but I can tell that she's specifically recognizing me, you know, and that we have this bond already. That there's like a specific connection. I just had no idea that babies could sort of, like, differentiate people and start to have unique relationships in that way. And that, it's like the best part of my day every day. So…  [00:52:41] Dan Runcie: That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. How about you?  [00:52:42] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. How about you?  [00:52:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like there's something about that. Like yeah, the first couple of months I remember I would like, ask my wife, I'd be like, you think she recognizes us? Like, because she understands who we are. And I think over time there was like, yeah, no, we can get that in. Even things like now, The mirror is something that she is obsessed with. I'm sure you probably feel the same with Riley too. But yeah, the mirror. At first it was kind of looking at the mirror where there's like, okay, what is this screen? Who is that person that I'm seeing? But I think now it's like looking at us through the mirror and like seeing that it's us. And maybe she's starting to be like, oh well, I see them through this. Like she probably still isn't at the point where it's like, oh, I can see that's looking at me. But she'll look at that other person staring at her in the mirror and start smiling and stuff too. So I'm like, oh, that's cute. So yeah, man. Wild time's flying by. She'll be five months by the time this comes out. Wild man.  [00:52:35] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. . Yeah. Yeah. We do a lot of like…. [00:53:38] Dan Runcie: oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where's that? Little, little peek-a-boo style games.  [00:53:42] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. In the mirror. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We'll have to have our kids together sometime soon. I guess, you know, but of course babies, not so interactive with each other yet. [00:53:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No. We'll get there. That'll be fun. Zack. This is great, man. Good work as always. It was great to see the list and again. The fact that I think you got just as much coverage and buzz and recognition for this, doing it independently is a great sign. Not just for you, but I think in general for people that are always questioning, okay, you know, what's the power of what I do elsewhere versus individually. So great job on that and we'll definitely keep tabs on this coming years. But great work, man, as always. Appreciate that. [00:54:25] Zack Greenburg: Thanks man. Same to you. This episode is a two-parter. At the top, I talk about the news at Motown Records with Ethiopia Habtemariam stepping down from her role as CEO and Chairwoman. After that, I talked to Zack O’Malley Greenburg about Hip-Hop’s wealthiest artists of 2022. 


After years of compiling the list for Forbes, Zack O’Malley Greenburg released the 2022 edition independently. This time around, he used insights from Columbia Business School to better grasp on the wealth of the industry’s biggest moguls.


Jay-Z tops the updated list with an estimated net worth of $1.5 billion. In second is the newly-minted billionaire Sean “Diddy” Combs. The rankings are rounded out by Ye ($500 million), Berner ($410 million), and Dr. Dre ($400 million). 


Zack joined me on the episode to discuss the rankings, and two artists in particular — Diddy and Berner. Diddy has a portfolio of diversified assets that include media, music, spirits, and now cannabis. Berner is the biggest surprise of the top 5 but has quietly built a cannabis empire with a large runway for further growth. Here’s everything Zack and I covered on the show: 


[13:56] Zack’s process behind putting the list together  

[15:40] The newest billionaire on the list

[16:41] The growth of Diddy’s DeLeon tequila brand

[29:02] Sean John’s place in Diddy’s portfolio 

[30:28] Diddy’s latest moves in cannabis and possibly Twitter 

[32:45] The evolving business of REVOLT

[36:19] Berner’s “surprise” $410 million net worth

[31:50] High potential for Berner’s business

[34:52] Berner’s business success supersedes his music fame 

[39:50] Drake moving up the ranks 

[43:50] Girl Dad stories


Zack’s Hip-Hop’s Wealthiest Artists list for 2022: https://zogblog.substack.com/p/hip-hops-wealthiest-artists-2022



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Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog

 

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TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:23] Dan Runcie: Hey, today's episode is a two parter. The first part of the episode, we're gonna do a breakdown on one of the more recent news that happened in the music industry. Motown Records CEO and Chairwoman Ethiopia Habtemariam has stepped down and there is a lot to unpack there. So we're gonna talk about that. And in the second half of this episode, we're joined by my guy Zack O'Malley Greenburg, and we are gonna talk about the recent list that he put out, which is his hip hop's 2022 list for the wealthiest artist. He has some new announcements, some usual names, and we break it all down. But first, let's start with the news at Motown. So it was last week, shortly after Thanksgiving. Ethiopia and Universal, and Motown announced that she will be stepping down from her role. This is a role that she has officially had at this level for just over a year and a half. I think it was March, 2021 that the role was announced, but she's essentially been the face of Motown from a leadership perspective for over a decade now and when the move happened, I think that there were a fair amount of people I could understand that could have been caught off guard by it. But when I start asking around, asking a few people questions who I know understand the situation pretty well, it's quick to see that what's being pushed publicly isn't quite reflecting what's actually happening behind closed doors. But before we get to all that, let's talk about some of the wins that I think Motown and Ethiopia have accomplished over the past decade, because I think these stand out and they're really important. I look at the 2015 joint venture deal that she did with quality control music, as one of those deals that can ultimately help bring a record label from its days of resting on its laurels to being able to get a bit more current. We've seen this happen time and time again. You look at Interscope in the early nineties. Interscope was a legacy rock and roll label. Jimmy Iovine was trying to figure out the next thing and then boom. Here comes Suge Knight. Here comes Dr. Dre and Death Row records comes through. Not only does Death Row continue to rise up with the supportive Interscope, but you also see Interscope adopt a bit of that cool factor and really revive itself, and now Interscope is continuing to be one of the strongest record labels that we have. You also saw that a few years later happened with Republic records and with cash money signs. The deal that I've talked about plenty of times on this podcast, that 1998 distribution deal and that deal did a lot for Baby and Slim, but it arguably did even more for Republic Records, which now I believe it's in its fourth year in a row, the leading industry or the leading record label in the industry when it comes to overall market share. And I do think that what quality control and Motown were able to do, do deserve some similar praise. But the slight difference here is that Motown for a lot of its time and even more so as we continue to learn, was saddled under the Capitol Music Group umbrella and didn't really have the opportunity to standalone as a true record label that could run on its own and be a standalone entity. The same way that we see with Interscope, the same way that you see with Republic. And some of the other record labels that are under the Universal Music Group umbrella. When the news first announced though, there wasn't as much chatter about Ethiopia's departure. You think about the times that Def Jam has turned over CEOs. There are think pieces on think piece. You can't get people to stop talking and sharing their opinions, and some of them on base, but people sharing their opinions about what Def Jam did and didn't do wrong, but there wasn't as much here. You saw a little bit in piece that Gail Mitchell at Billboard had done where I think she did a good breakdown. You could definitely read between the lines a little bit of some of the things that necessarily weren't being said, but what I think we started to unpack and what we started to get a sense for was, even though Motown had increased its market share considerably under Ethiopia's tenure, I believe back in 2017, it was around 0.4%. And as of most recently from what Billboard reported in 2022, it's at 0.95%. And that's great, more than double. And you think about how much more recorded music has grown from 2017 to 2022 now as well, that's a pretty huge growth and that's nothing to shy away from. The thing is, record label executives and the music industry aren't just judged on market share. You're judged on how efficient you are with what you do to acquire that market share. You're also judged on your ability to score deals and your ability to do it in a way that's efficient. Everyone still has a PNL at the end of the day. But I think the slight difference for some of these companies is that because they sit under the Universal Music Group umbrella, you may not necessarily know what's really happening unless you have a really discerning eye and you can put two and two together. And if you look at some of the moves that Motown has made over the years, there have been a number of big signings. But have those big signings always necessarily led to the type of results? You know, someone like Universal CEO, Lucian Green wants to see from a record label that now would be standing alone and no longer under the Capitol Music Group umbrella. You look at an artist like Lil Baby, who you know, through quality control, is part of that Motown collective. But, you needed a few more artists at that level and you needed to get them at affordable rates. And I think the biggest win that we saw from Motown in recent years was they recently signed NBA Young Boy. This is about a year after he started working with his record label, but how much did it cost to get NBA Young Boy? He had just posted on Instagram, this is two months before this deal was made public. He had just posted on Instagram, this was in August, 2022, that he was a 60 million dollar dude. You're saying you're a 60 million dude. A lot of people thought that was a cash money deal. They thought that was probably what Baby and Slim offered, but you later find out that this is what was coming from Motown, and I don't know if that's the number or not, but you can just assume a few things. One, NBA Young Boy was someone that just got out of his deal at Atlantic Records and he's getting out of his deal. This is the second most streamed artist according to HITS Daily Double for year to date for 2022. But as we also know about streams, not all streams are necessarily weighted the same, and those YouTube streams may not necessarily lead to the same payouts that you may get from the digital streaming providers. Your Spotify, your Apple music, your titles, your Amazon, and so forth. So you have that. You also mix that in with NBA Young Boy's audience isn't necessarily the type to go buy up a bunch of vinyl. They're not the type to go buy up a bunch of digital copies or then necessarily sell out an arena. And it's great that he has those streams, but he has those streams because he is dropping an album every other month. It's not the same as Columbia having a big release from Harry Styles and then monetizing the shit out of that. Or Kendrick Lamar having a big release on Interscope, and then that continues to do numbers and numbers. It's not the same type of thing in that way. So I think, even if you were able to win a bidding war, which is great, obviously a number of labels would've wanted to get NBA Young Boy. There's a certain price to everything, and even though we may not know the specific details, we can put two and two together. There are also a few other recent signings that could be called a bit into question. There were signings of Diddy and Brandy, and these are names that I think a lot of people, especially millennials and Gen X folks grew up with, and they're gonna be people who have done quite a bit in the music industry, but they're at a different stage in their career. They're hot. Their years of earning meaningful revenue for a record label aren't necessarily where they are at this particular point in their careers. That's okay. But does the price that was paid to get them, justify that. And I think there's kind of an unsaid thing where if you're signing someone who is already well off, they are likely doing this for their own choice, then it may cost a little bit more than an equivalent artist who could produce just as much from a revenue side as what you may expect from Diddy or Brandy moving forward if they don't have that name and that cache. And to be frank, the stability to not do a deal unless it's gonna be lucrative enough for them. And then you also have artists like Smino and Vince Staples who are talented at rap, and they definitely had the moment where you thought things were rising up, but they don't move units like that. And then it brings you back to the broader piece of what's happening, specifically with the JV, with quality control music. And I think that you've seen a lot of success there. Little Baby is one of the most successful artists that we've seen, but I think you just needed a few more artists, even Migos. I think that Migos in some ways from a commercial standpoint, peaked with that first culture album that came out. Culture two wasn't able to hit the same heights and Culture three definitely wasn't either. None of the solo artists were necessarily able to do that, and unfortunately there was some, you know, conflict between the Migos themselves. Takeoff is no longer with us. There's just a lot that just didn't exactly line up. It's really tough, and it's even tough to share it this way because I think one of the reasons you didn't hear a lot of chatter and discussion about this is a lot of people really wanted to see Ethiopia succeed, myself included. We wanna be able to see these black executives continue to reach the highest ranks that they can because we also wanna be able to see the same, whether it's toon feat at Def Jam or other. But the way that things are presented externally and this effort to necessarily hide things may have you thinking that these executives have more control and influence than they actually do. And they weren't necessarily given the same level of influence or control that John Janick may get at Interscope or that the Lipmans may have at Republic. So we really have to be honest when we're reporting these things and what we're showing and what we're not, because it does a disservice not only to the industry about, you know, trying to hide these things because listen. This is a place where there's plenty of people that are talented. People learn from where they can come through and it doesn't, and it isn't gonna hurt people the way that you think that it is. And one of the reasons that these things often can be controlled this way, the music's industry's PR machine can be so strong and it can have you having this, you know, Misconceived perception, and while I think insiders do know, there's a lot of folks who are on the outside that will eventually rise to those ranks who just don't necessarily have a clear picture. And anytime that there's that big of a delta, that's how information just doesn't necessarily get itself to the right people at once. And we wanna make sure that we're doing everything we can to empower the folks in the next generation. And I know a lot of this is swimming uphill. This is an industry that is controlled by a lot of lawyers, and it's an industry that really thrives on the PR of how things spin, but been behind closed doors. It's a very different situation. In some ways it's almost a stark difference to something like tech where so much of the drama and decisions that happen within big tech are happening. You know, out in the open you could see things and while some of that, you know, can be to a fault, I do think it leads in some ways to some better discussions around what success can look like and what opportunities can look like. So I hope we can all use this as a reminder to make sure that we're being transparent as we can. When we call things out, it helps more. Think and be able to have the right discussions about what success looks like, and the more that we can report on what success benchmarks actually are, so that you're not just relying on an imperfect key performance indicator like market share, and you're actually reporting on. Efficiency. It's great that someone landed a deal, but how much should it cost to get that artist assigned? And will that payout turn out the way that you think that it is? And at the end of the day, this is about PNLs. Are you bringing in enough profit to offset any of the loss? And is there future belief and potential in your ability to get the buy in, do it in an efficient way, and keep driving the business? Quite the buzz after Thanksgiving. We'll see what the rest of the year brings. I think things will be pretty quiet until things head into January. But with that, let's turn things over to the next part of the episode. Here's my conversation with Zach O'Malley Greenberg about the wealthiest hip hop artists in 2022.

[00:13:06] Dan Runcie: All right. We have Zach O'Malley Greenberg back with us, who recently released Hip Hop's wealthiest List for 2020. Your second year doing this independently, by the way. So shout outs to you on that. And it was great to see the results. We had some expectations, Jay-Z, number one, but there's two people I really wanna dive into with this conversation. Let me just run through the list first. So you have Jay-Z, number one, one and a half billion. Diddy to newly minted billionaire, 1 billion. You have third, Yey at five hundred million dollars. 4th, Berner, 410 million. And then we have Dr. Dre at 400 million. So let's start at the top. What was it like for you, not just releasing this independently, but being able to put it out and as you were putting it together, what were some of the stuff that stuck out to you?

[00:13:56] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. You know, first of all, this list is probably the thing that I put the most effort into every year. At the end of the day, you see these numbers, you know, 1.5 billion, they get reported. And it was the same in my days at Forbes, as doing it independently. People take the number, everyone with it. And I think a lot of times people just assume it's like, ah, somebody's pulling them, out of wherever. But you know, I would say I put more time into those numbers, than I have put into some cover stories, you know, that are several pages long. So it's going through each of these, you know, these superstars and figuring out, you know, what's in their portfolio. What is each asset worth calling? People, you know, who have knowledge, whether it's, you know, within the camps of the stars themselves, or industry experts that are covering, you know, the booze business or the weed business or something like that. Finding ways of valuing these assets. And, you know, and I think the new thing for me, aside from doing it independently was, I've been taking courses at Columbia Business School this year. I'm part of a fellowship where I sort of do my first year of business, school light, and get to bounce around and learn some of these concepts that, you know, maybe, I didn't know before I got to sharpen them. And it's given me some new tools for looking at things like Diddy, Ciroc Partnership and, you know, ways to value things that are a little bit weird and not sort of like a run of the mill asset. So, yeah, you know, I mean I think the big takeaway, the big surprise is probably Berner being on the list, being ahead of Dr. Dre. Like you said, I think Diddy being a billionaire, finally, you know, Diddy would say that's not news. You know, you would say that he should be higher. I'm sure it's been really cool to take a look at it, you know, independently and with some of these new tools in my toolkit to come up with, I would say my most active list.

[00:15:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Well, that's good to hear. And I wanna talk about Diddy first because I feel like. That's the one. I'll be honest, the news there surprised me a bit, not because I didn't think that Diddy was a billionaire, but more so because of how his business is and how things are structured. And it made me wonder, okay, how much has changed? Because I knew that Ciroc was the main thing that he had, that was the one of the largest drivers of his net. But you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the sales had peaked around the mid 2010s and maybe there was a slight decline, but maybe, you might have more intel on that. And I know that revolt and I know that business there. And with Sean, Sean itself, I know he had sold it and bought it back. So I was a bit curious to see or maybe hear how much net worth changed as a result of something that had appreciated in value versus your calculations of how you'd be doing this now as opposed to maybe how you had done it years back?

[00:16:41] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, so, you know, I think my methodology changed slightly. The breakdown isn't that much different. Ciroc is still the main component. You know, you could say safely, it's the slight majority of his 1 billion net worth. And it's a weird arrangement because he does not hold an equity stake. However, the deal is structured to emulate an equity stake because, you know, it wouldn't have worked as an equity stake cuz Ciroc is owned by Diageo, it's this giant public trade company. They couldn't really be like, Hey, here's, you know, a quarter of our company or something like that. There wasn't really anything to do with that. So it was more creating a framework around the Ciroc brand to function like an equity stake. So if Diageo were ever to sell Ciroc, Diddy would get, you know, let's say the proceeds after you back out the amount of money that Ciroc has put into the partnership. So, you know, it would be a lot. And there's no doubt that even if things have sort of flattened out a little, it's a multi-billion dollar brand. You know, I mean, if you look at something like Ketel One, you know, brands like that that have changed hands, you know, these are billion dollar brands and you know, Ciroc is I think number two behind Grey Goose. So it's up there. They're not gonna sell it, but if they did, you know, we're looking at a pretty big payday. So the question is how do you value something that isn't gonna get sold? And really, you know, you wanna really nerd out about it from sort of MBA type perspective. You know, thinking about valuing cash flow. That's, you know, one of the fundamentals of valuation in corporate finance and stuff like that. And, you know, there are formulas and without getting into like the, you know, sort of like more details of it where you can sort of enter assumptions into the formula and you can get a number. But basically what I did was I took the way I was doing it before I ran the numbers that way, and then I kind of did some pre cash analysis and kind of like average things out and any way you slice it, these Ciroc partnership is, you know, worth a little more than half of his, billion dollar valuation. The other things that, you know, I think perhaps I had been, you know, undercounted a little bit in the past or have appreciated. A lot since then, you know, revolt is still hanging around there. And that's another thing where the valuation could depend on you. Do you value it as, you know, sort of a, like a TV based entity, even though it's more digital? Do you value it as a news outlet? Do you value it as a tech startup? There are a bunch of different ways to look at it, but in any case, you know, he is the majority owner. Another thing that I think people sleep on is DeLeon tequila, that is really growing and he owns half of that. Actually. It's a 50-50 joint venture with the AIO and they're moving a hundred and something thousand cases a year now. Actually, you know, booze has done really well during the pandemic. You might imagine people, I don't know, I feel like we're back to, you know, some of our old ways of going out and doing things. People are drinking at home during the pandemic. So, you know, Ciroc and DeLeon didn't get hurt in the way that, let's say the live touring business did. So Diddy was pretty well slated there. And then you go through and he's got like a pretty immense art collection. He's got some real estate that's appreciated pretty rapidly over the past few years. You know, some of which he owns out, right? And, you know, you kind of add it all up. And, he's comfortably a billionaire. And yeah, I mean, if you notice like  you know, some folks when they hit that status or when they make the list or something, we'll kind of like to tweet about it. But, you know, I don't think I saw anything from Diddy because, you know, he's thought that he's a billionaire for, you know, years already. And, you know, maybe he was, but now I, I definitely think that he is and, I would expect, you know, to see other, let's say mainstream business outlets follow suit in, you know, kind of acknowledging what's definitely the attitude.

[00:20:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah, appreciate the breakdown there and thinking about just like different categories there. If thinking about Ciroc itself, as you mentioned, maybe the sales flattened out a bit, but looking at revolts specifically, and I know that business has, you know, gone through some evolutions as well over the past few years, would it be safe to assume that the biggest valuation change here for Diddy's assets that maybe brought him to a billion is daily owned and some of the artwork in terms of like what's appreciated? If we assume that whether it's Ciroc or Revolt have flattened out a bit. Like would those be the ones you say that had put him over 1 billion? 

[00:21:21] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, you know, he was pretty close before, last time I did it before was, I think it was three years ago. I think he was at 740. You know, personally, you know, without getting too deep into it, I would've put 'em a little higher. But, you know, you get your files. I did. And that spar deal and you know, you gotta create a consensus. And I think, you know, and Forbes always says it, it would rather be conservative about valuations that it would rather understand an overstate, but you know, so that's part of it too. Yeah, I think there's definitely been an appreciation in the value of DeLeon the real estate, you know, there's a lot of startup stakes, and he's not doing it as, let's say publicly as, Nas or Jay-Z, but, you know, he definitely hops in as an angel in a lot of, a lot of startups that, that have done well. So, but, you know, yeah, I think DeLeon doesn't get the glory of Ciroc, but you know, it's a younger company. There's more room to grow. And not to be a shit, but it actually tastes really good. I've tasted other, you know, celebrity tequilas and they're not good, but it is a tasty booze, if I may say so myself. And I think the way that he launched it was that he found this sort of, you know, like a boutique brand that had already won some awards and then he kind of got in with Diageo and, and they boosted. To where it is now. So I really think that's probably like where you could see a lot more growth, if he's gonna start to try to challenge Jay-Z for that.

[00:22:53] Dan Runcie: Why do you think that DLleon hasn't gotten that same amount of love that Ciroc has gotten, at least publicly?

[00:23:00] Zack Greenburg: I think a lot of attention was focused on, you know, like Casamigos or some of the other really big brands and it hadn't quite gotten to that level with the same, you know, distribution and mind share. And, you know, frankly, I mean, I think Diddy has been devoting more energy to Ciroc, but you know, you're starting to see it, you know, it's a little bit less in your base kind of vibe with the brand. it's like more of a sipping thing, less of the shots at the club kind of thing. Although I'm sure, you know, you could sit either or do shots at either at the club. But I think it's just not around as much. I mean, I think the case volume on Ciroc is still like 10 times more than 10 times as high as DeLeon. So, you're just not gonna see it around as much. And I think that's why.

[00:23:51] Dan Runcie: And the other thing too, that you mentioned is that DeLeon itself is actually a joint venture with Diageo, unlike Ciroc Partnership. So of course I know that the Ciroc partnership, now we're talking 15 plus years ago at this point when things kicked off and different positions, different leverage and relationships. So I wonder if the relationship is part of the reason why Diddy was able to have the type of ownership. Partnership with DeLeon that he may not have, at least in writing with Ciroc? 

[00:24:23] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, I think so. And I think that was part of his motivation, for how he structured DeLeon. He wanted to have that. Actual equity stake, you know, like ironclad 50-50 joint venture type thing, rather than an agreement that mimics a joint venture. So, you know, I think that the success of Ciroc definitely convinced Diageo like, all right,, we can do this with another brand. He's the guy. And, for my book, 3 Kings, I talked to some books over there and you know, I think I talked to the CEO at the time, and they couldn't have been more abusive about him. And of course, you know, like whatever, he's part of their team. Of course they're gonna say good things about him, but they were saying just like the attention to detail. Like he would, he would go to clubs and, you know, go to the bartender and be like, why is the Ciroc not on the top shelf? And what are you going to do? You're gonna be like, oh, sorry Mr. Coles gonna leave Joe here. You know, and they'll put it up on the top. I mean, it's sort of like a retail politics level of stuff. And you know, I always say that, that Diddy, you know, in a way, like you could argue. Who has had the most scheduled career and you know, who's the goat of, you know, on the business side. And you know, I think a lot of people would say Jay-Z, and they wouldn't be wrong. But, you know, I think Diddy in a way has done more with less because he hasn't been musically relevant in, you know, a really long time in that way. Still puts stuff out in whatever, but it's not like the anticipation that exists when Jay drops an album or even a verse on, you know, on a DJ Khaled song or something. And, you know, I always like to say that Diddy is kinda more like Richard Branson if he happened to just have had, you know, like a moment as like a big time rapper And you know, certainly as a producer, he's had ahead a lot of things. And not to diminish that, but he acknowledges himself. He says, I don't write rhymes, I write checks. And I think that's a strong student. I think it's especially impressive to see that he's done it without being particularly talented. 

[00:26:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think that, His true line of being able to sell a lifestyle is what sets him apart in a lot of ways. He did it with his music. I think in a lot of ways. Bad Boys modeled after so much of what he learned at Uptown, and then you're able to transfer that lifestyle to, okay, this is the music that you listen to now. This is what you wear while you wear Sean John. This is what you drink while you're listening to this, right? Mm-hmm, you're gonna drink and this is the media that you're gonna watch. Now with the cannabis line that he just bought, this is what you're gonna smoke while you're enjoying this lifestyle too. Mm-hmm. And I think that a lot of those businesses have had varying success and we can go into that, but I do think that the ones that have been the most successful, Ciroc, Sean and the music, there's that tight connection and there's a key timing aspect that goes into all of it.

[00:27:35] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and it doesn't even need to be his music. Right? That is popular in order for the Ciroc Formula to work, it's the Ciroc Boys, it's DJ Khaled, Summer Watermelon, or whatever it is. You know, I think his ability to make those partnerships, to find other people you know, who are kind of doing now what he was doing then musically are, you know, I think that that's part of the formula and that's why it works so well. And you know, I mean, it's funny, like DJ Khaled, you know, something like Wild Thoughts was doing exactly what Diddy was doing a couple decades ago, right? He was taking a song from a couple decades, you know, one or two decades ago and putting, you know, some new voices, the modern voices on it. And it was a song that was great before and now it's got, you know, like more kind of a vibe to it and you know, goes off the chart, so I think Diddy is just very savvy with that kind of stuff, even if it's stuff. 

[00:28:31] Dan Runcie: Let's talk about Sean John for a bit, cause I'm curious how that factored into your methodology with everything, because as many people know, he started the brand over 20 years ago and well, in 2016 he sold the brand, then the brand was up in auction, and then he bought it for public number I saw was 7.6 million. So now he has that back as an asset. How did that piece of it factor in for you and just the journey overall of Sean? 

[00:29:02] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, and not much now. You know, I mean, I think what factored in more was, sort of like his cash pile. Like he sold it for. Like, whatever it was five years ago, something like that. I think he got, he got 30 million out, 40 million, something like that, that he then put into other things. And uh, you know, obviously without him it doesn't do well. And so he went bankrupt and I think it's really smart for him to buy it back. You know, who knows what he might end up doing with this, but, I think there's just,  you know, like a tremendous market for sort of like nineties nostalgia right now. You know, I think Sean John, or even a Rocawear, if they could have, I dunno, that's a little more complicated, but I think that, you know, if he's at the helm and his part as a lifestyle, Would never count him out. So, but yeah, as far as what it's worth right now, it's sort of more of a rounding error and overall number. But, you know, be interesting to see what comes.

[00:30:04] Dan Runcie: And when you made your list around the same time, I believe that same week, there were two other announcements that came up. One was the cannabis company that he bought for, I believe it was 185 million. And the other one, I don't know if this one was a hundred percent confirmed, but did you see that thing floating around about him making an investment in Twitter along with Elon Musk's bid?

[00:30:28] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, no, you know that was all after the numbers got finalized, so, you know, those weren't really factored into it. But you know, I mean, yeah, it all makes sense. It's all part of the lifestyle thing. It's all part of the Diddy empire, the Diddy MO, and you know, he's look, I mean, on the cannabis side, right? Like he's puff daddy, you know, like what are, what are you puffing? It's exactly, it makes sense. It's like part of the brand. And, you know, if he could do the same thing with cannabis leaders with vodka, Which is to say like, I mean, I don't know. I think when he started vodka was not, you know, it was not really seen as a stylish thing. It was more like, you do a shot to get drunk. I mean, I don't know, maybe that's physics. I was in college when that happened, and that's when, that's sort of the vibe on vodka. But he made it like the champagne of vodkas. He associated his lifestyle with it and similarly, I think with weed, it's like, you know, we're in this very nascent part of the canvas economy, you know, becoming legal and, and sort of how do you start to differentiate brands, you know, and when you have legalization you can have, you know, like. The champagne of weed, right? You can start to differentiate, you know, like what type of buzz you're gonna get because it's regulated and you can actually say like, this is the thing that has this much THC and it's gonna give you this kind of high, versus like, this is just gonna knock you on your ass. I think it's a great place for him to get into, but you know, at the same time it's like, It is a really hard place to do business still. And you know, it is not without risk. It, you know, because it is not federally legal yet. You have to do, you have to do most of your business in cash. You can't get loans in the same way, especially if you have a plant touching enterprise. You have to do all these, handle all these different state regulations, which are constantly changing and are subject to the whims of, you know, clinical races and you know, potentially gerrymandering, all kinds of stuff that has nothing to do with Diddy. So, you know, I think that's the tricky part. And you know, also not being a first mover in the way that somebody like Berner is. But at the same time, it's like, you know, he fills a different niche in the mark potentially than Berner does. 

[00:32:45] Dan Runcie: And yeah, no, that'll be fascinating to watch. Yeah. I think the thing about Revolt is a great concept in the vision, of course. Makes sense. Seeing how influential Diddy was with MTV and whether it's the voter die shirts that he would wear or some of the other programming, he leveraged it so well as a hip hop artist. So if you know you have that impact, why wouldn't you wanna go start your own company and go do the same? Right. I think some of the timing just became a little tough in that he started the cable network in 2013. People are already starting to cut the cord at that point. And then I know the company's transitioned much more into digital media, but even that, given that so much of it is social media based, relying on other platforms and their algorithms, I think we saw so many of those companies in that same timeframe, even the ones that were perceived as being successful, whether it's your Buzzfeed or your Huffington Post or your Complex, like all of those valuations came back down to earth. And you look at a company like Revolt, which I think was largely playing the same game, although I think they still make tons of great content and there are tons of great, brilliant people working there. I think that the digital media itself and where things transformed was a bit tough. Like let's say that Diddy had started let's say 2007 as opposed to 2013, I think we'd be having a very different conversation, 

[00:34:03] Zack Greenburg: You know, or 1997 , you know, I mean, yeah. I think it could be a whole different conversation and, you know, yeah. That's one of the smaller pieces of the empire, and I think, like you would say, he would make a certain argument about it and, you know, valuing it more like on the line of being a tech company. But it's hard to escape the fact that it, you know, it still. I would say yeah, like primarily a media outlet point and whether it's, you know, via cable or the internet or whatever, it's like these are not, like, these are kind of tricky places to be, but you know, it does make sense. There is a demand for that kind of stuff and it's a crowded marketplace, but, you know, he does have something different to offer and, you know, I think that there's a reason why it's still around and, you know, it'll be interesting to see how it goes, how it proceeds as we enter like the next phase of this sort of media shake up in a amount of time.

[00:35:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And I think the other thing too, that I should have mentioned earlier is that given that this is a black owned media company, I know he's been vocal and Byron Allen and others have been vocal about advertisers not contributing the same level of money into black owned media companies that they would to, let's say, some of the Revolts competitors in the space that maybe started and run by white founders, white executives, but they're commanding more money from that perspective. So I think that's another tough thing there. But overall, like we said, this is a small piece of the overall pie. And yeah, it'd be interesting too. Especially the newer businesses, how many of them can continue that Ciroc magic, the bad boy flavor? And see? See where that lifestyle keeps going? Yeah. All right. Now let's talk about the other big one on the list, Berner. And based on the response that I saw from people sharing the list of people talking about it, this is the one that surprised a lot of people. But I know it didn't surprise you because you've been following this for a while. You've been talking to Berner, getting a better understanding of his business. So it'd be great to hear the breakdown because I think a lot of people out there may know Berner now more so for this product than they may actually know his music or anything else that he's done in hip hop up to now.

[00:36:19] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I think Berner is one of the most fascinating names on the list. Definitely the most surprising. But, you know, I've been following his work for a while and, you know, he is a master marketer and his whole journey about how he turned cookies, cannabis, You know, it is a billion dollar company and it's just a little tricky to value, but, it is a billion dollar company and the way he did it, you know, I would say it's a case study, but it's actually pretty hard to emulate. It is sort of like a singular way of doing things. So, you know, for the people who don't know the background, Bernard born in California and San Francisco grew up there, moved to Arizona as a teenager and, and would bring back good weed from California when, whenever, you know, would make trips back to his old stomping grounds. And that's how he kind of got his start. He moved back to San Francisco, during the early, you know, weed legalization gold. Worked at a dispensary and, you know, kind of popularized this Girl Scout cookie, strain of weed. And so his thing would, at the dispensary, he would, you know, they used to sell things. It was sort of like an index car with the name of the strain. It was very clinical. But he would sort of like do these doodles and cookies and, you know, these like bright colors and stuff. And, and it started to get some tension. He became, you know, Wiz Khalifa's weed man when he was in San Francisco. And on one occasion brought this fully butted six foot tall weed plant onto the stage at Khalifa's show. And, you know, I think it was sort of instrumental in that Khalifa had created the Khalifa kush and all this. And so Bernard ultimately parlayed this sort of underground, you know, weed connoisseur image that he had as both on the legal and illegal markets into this brand. Cookies started opening stores, created a clothing line that, you know, kind of goes along with it. But the thing that he did with the way he set up this company is pretty, pretty unusual and very hard to value, but I think is quite brilliant. He started striking these partnerships with dispensaries and, you know, essentially it was a licensing deal where he would get a cut of revenue. And then the other part of the deal is that he could also buy out any of these partners. At market rate, at a time in the future, you know, in the future to be determined. And you know, like some of these numbers are out there, but you know, I think the system-wide sales are close to half a billion dollars now. And he gets a cut of that. But you know, at any time he could decide to roll all you could raise money, roll all these partnerships up into one giant weed company that's, you know, making. You know that, that kind of revenue and, and suddenly, you know, all you need to do is you put a multiple on that and, and that'll tell you what the company would be. If he rolled it all up and bought everybody out. And I talked to Wall Street analysts about this and covered the space and they said, you know, yeah, you could put like a five x multiple on this, so that would mean it's you know, yeah, like about a $2 billion company. Then you have to factor in the cost of buying out all those partnerships. You know, long story short would probably be about half billion dollars because it is a very tricky business. In fact, you have to be very liquid when doing everything in cash. It's kind of complicated. People I talked to, you know, bankers and stuff, said, yeah, you would apply a private company discount due to the uncertainty of the market, things like that, that's operating in it, you know, you would knock 20, 30% off of that and you know, so that it brings it down to around a billion dollars and then Berner still owns about a third of it. And so there's the bulk of his fortune right there, you know, so his stake is probably worth around $300 million. This point, I figure. And I think that's pretty conservative. You know, you add in some other thing invested in the clothing line, which he owns, you know, a huge part of still, you know, some homes, cash stuff like. And you get to that 400, 2 million number.

[00:40:27] Dan Runcie: Nice. Yeah, I've been seeing people wearing the cookies hoodies, walking around San Francisco, walking around other places. But definitely seeing the apparel thing push and I feel like he has one of those brands there are probably seeing even more of that stuff. I think it was a couple weeks ago I was driving by and I saw the store in Hate Ashbury neighborhood here at San Francisco. So yeah, no, definitely making moves. A few things there that stuck out. So he of course has his own standalone stores. As you mentioned, there's 55 of them across the country right now. And he also was selling them to other dispensaries. And I'm sure if and when weed does become legalized across the country, that will then just make things even easier from a distribution perspective from other places that he may be able to sell any otherwise. So in some ways the investment isn't just based on what's currently there or there's also a speculative nature. As this underlying product becomes more and more legal, there will be more opportunity to further sell this and further have its reach to different places. 

[00: 41:36] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. And the clothing line also builds the value of the cannabis brand. And you know, if and when it is federally legalized, you gotta think. I mean, you know, this is one of the top brands in the business. And in fact, you know, there aren't really brands in this way in the cannabis space. There's strains, it's almost saying like in beer, you know, like, yeah, people like IPAs or people like those or whatever, but there isn't really like a Budweiser yet or a dogfish head, you know, or something like that. And, you know, to go back to Diddy, there's not really a champagne of weed. So, you know, I think that Berner has built up all this credibility in this space and, you know, if, when it goes legal, it's like to be one of the top weed brands in this space that is going to, you know, potentially rival or, you know, at least kind of start to eat into alcohol business. I mean, you know, 2 billion is not a large number for a company. There's a lot of potential for it to get a lot bigger and, you know, we can get into the whole. There's definitely a lot of arguments, pros and cons, about the benefits of THC and Cannabis General. And, you know, we will be here all day on that. But just from a business perspective, you know, it seems like we're headed toward legalization. Berner actually thinks that republicans are more likely to make federal legalization happen. He said, cause they're all about their paper. So I'm not saying who he's voting for anything. I don't. You know. it was an interesting perspective and, you know, like I think that he's really got kind of the key to where…..

[00:43:15] Dan Runcie: One of the other things that sticks out to me about him is that he's someone who is much more known, at least on a general awareness perspective, for the business that he's built as opposed to the music. I feel like his music was a bit more of a regional thing and he puts out a ton of music, but it never hit the same levels as some of the other artists who are having nine figure net worths as well. And I feel like there's often this thought, and which I do believe generally is true, that the artists who tend to be the most successful with product sales and investing and some of the more lucrative business opportunities that artists have done, they're more likely to be the household names who have been releasing music and touring for decades than a lot of times it's because they're releasing products that are lending their names, so they're leveraging their influence to now sell things that have a larger stake in and can be bought time and time again. He's a little different though because he doesn't necessarily have that. I'm curious what you think about that piece of it, because I think so many of the hip hop cash lists over the years do have at least somewhat of a correlation as to who are the more well known artists or who are the more popular artists at the time, and not necessarily who is building the strongest business, you know, that is being worth the most, and that is not correlated with how much mainstream popularity that artists may have.

[00:44:44] Zack Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. I mean the funny thing is when you look at it, he is the most prolific artist on the list. But, you know, he has the least name recognition as well, right? I mean, Jay-Z, Diddy, Kanye, Dr. Dre, none of them are putting out music at the pace with which Berner is putting out music. But everybody knows who they are and not everybody knows Berner. You know, I think you could almost argue like, well, are you really gonna put him, you know, on the list with these guys who have that much more name recognition? But you could also argue, should we really be treating, you know, Diddy as a rapper anymore than we should be? You know, treating Richard Branson, as I know Richard Branson didn't actually rap ever, but, you know, effectively Diddy is just focused on business at this point and you know, he puts out songs here and there. Music is an ancillary Berner also used. You know, the Music Chief boosts the weed business, but he's in the studio like all the time, more than any of these guys. Yeah, it's just kinda fun.

[00:45:48] Dan Runcie: I think another person that maybe thought of a similar way, someone like Chamillionaire who had one really large hit, mm-hmm. But wasn't necessarily known for having classic after classic after classic album or touring the world in the same large ways as some of the other big names we did, but his investing journey is something that has been pretty well documented and I think as a result, he's definitely further than a lot of the other artists that came around the same time as him that may have had even more commercial success. So I feel like even though there is a lot of a correlation between who are the most well known artists and who are the wealthiest artists, he is someone else who is a bit similar in that Berner way of, hey, yeah, there may have a smaller overall impact from the music itself, but was able to wisely use that and then now leverage that into something where, you know, the artist is making more money from the business moves and more known for that now. 

[00:46:49] Zack Greenburg: Absolutely. I mean a great example of Chamillionaire and, you know, the work that he's been doing in the startup world. So at the same time, it's like if he hadn't had that one day hit, you know, would he have been able to get into, you know, the Silicon Valley kind of fear in the same way, you know, I don't know, but I think all it takes is one hit to be in the mix. And certainly like Burner never had that one hit, right? He just had a lot of, you know, really solid albums and stuff, but he was doing it in San Francisco. And I think, you know, in that way that you see somebody like Jamon Green getting really involved in the startup world, would he have been that guy if he were in, you know, like Cleveland or something? You know, I don't think so, but if you're in the mix, in the Bay Area, you're just gonna have access to a lot more opportunities, you know, in the startup world. And I think the startup world, cannabis world, you know, it. Kinda the epicenter. So in a funny way that the two have a lot of commonalities I think are familiar.

[00:47:51] Dan Runcie: Yeah. This is good. I'm excited to see what next year's list looks like as well. And I know you may not be able to share publicly, but in order to get the five, you probably evaluated a few others. Are there any names creeping up, arising up that you think may make a  2023 appearance?

[00:48:08] Zack Greenburg: I think, you know, Drake is creep enough, big new deal. You know, he doesn't have quite the same level of, you know, sort of like outside assets. Like he doesn't have, like a Ciroc or a cookie or what have you. And, you know, I think he does have this whiskey, Virginia Black, but it's like, never like still around, but it never really took off and it only tastes okay. It's okay. I don't think taste ultimately matters a lot of times with this stuff, but I'm kind of surprised that he wasn't able to like boost a little bit more. But I don't know. When I think Drake, I don't really think whiskey. Maybe that's just part of it. I mean, I could see him with more champagne maybe. 

[00:48:51] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I'm interested to see for him how this new deal he has and the music that he makes as a result ends up factoring in, because of course we know that music itself may not be the largest revenue stream for a lot of these artists. Drake has this huge deal with Universal and Republic now, and he's releasing music more frequently than ever, and we can assume that it's likely because he's getting better upside and margins for the music he's releasing. So if he keeps up at this, like two, three albums a year clip. I mean, the numbers are gonna speak for themselves. Last year he streamed more than all pre 1980 artists. Like it's gonna catch up. 

[00:49:29] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. I think the other thing with net worth less as opposed to. Is that, you know, it's just harder to get on these lists if you are a big cash earner. Like if you are earning a lot on an annual basis, you know, things get factored into that, like taxes and cost of living and all that. And so, you know, you're getting these huge outlays, but you know, it's not in the same way that it was like going into this, this growing asset that can be valued. And in a way that's kind of like a quirk of the system because, you know, I'm valuing Berner’s stake in cookies, you know, like it's not tax, right? Like  if he were to sell it and he were to get $300 million, you know, whatever, a third half of that would be gone to the government. But that's not baked into the formula until he sells it. So you know, this is how Bloomberg and Forbes do it. It's just kinda what it is. But, it means that if you are holding assets, you know, the taxes aren't taken out. Whereas if you're a cash earner, that gets deducted before it gets added to your cash pile. So, it just means Drake is more likely to be at the top of, you know, let's say top earning artist. And you know, it's a little harder for him to get to the top…

[00:50:59] Dan Runcie: That's a great distinction. No, we'll definitely keep that in mind for next year. Do you think you'll do another top earners of the year list as well?

[00:51:05] Zack Greenburg: I don't know. Maybe, we'll see how it goes. Being a new dad, and doing this full time program, you know, this fellowship at Columbia that I mention. It takes a lot of time. And you know, I don't wanna put out a list unless I have the time to really dig in and get the numbers right. But yeah, you never know. I got this one out. So, there could be more. More to come.

[00:51:28] Dan Runcie: And I think on that note, just talking about dad life in general. Let's close things out there. So by the time this comes out, your daughter will be six months old and we can both share one funny thing that our kids did this past couple weeks. So I'll let you start.

[00:51:44 ] Zack Greenburg: Oh, man. Well, I think the thing that's really most exciting is that she's laughing now and the thing that she mainly thinks is funny is when I'm laughing. So like, we'll get into this thing, I will make myself start laughing and then she'll go, ha ha. I go, ha. And, and it’s very dorky, dad life. But, that is like one of my favorite things to do is have like, sort of a laugh off with Riley. So, yeah, I don't know, man. I pick her up from daycare every day and she just gives me this huge smile and I know that she’s still really young, but I can tell that she's specifically recognizing me, you know, and that we have this bond already. That there's like a specific connection. I just had no idea that babies could sort of, like, differentiate people and start to have unique relationships in that way. And that, it's like the best part of my day every day. So… 

[00:52:41] Dan Runcie: That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. How about you? 

[00:52:42] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. How about you? 

[00:52:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like there's something about that. Like yeah, the first couple of months I remember I would like, ask my wife, I'd be like, you think she recognizes us? Like, because she understands who we are. And I think over time there was like, yeah, no, we can get that in. Even things like now, The mirror is something that she is obsessed with. I'm sure you probably feel the same with Riley too. But yeah, the mirror. At first it was kind of looking at the mirror where there's like, okay, what is this screen? Who is that person that I'm seeing? But I think now it's like looking at us through the mirror and like seeing that it's us. And maybe she's starting to be like, oh well, I see them through this. Like she probably still isn't at the point where it's like, oh, I can see that's looking at me. But she'll look at that other person staring at her in the mirror and start smiling and stuff too. So I'm like, oh, that's cute. So yeah, man. Wild time's flying by. She'll be five months by the time this comes out. Wild man. 

[00:52:35] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. . Yeah. Yeah. We do a lot of like….

[00:53:38] Dan Runcie: oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where's that? Little, little peek-a-boo style games. 

[00:53:42] Zack Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. In the mirror. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We'll have to have our kids together sometime soon. I guess, you know, but of course babies, not so interactive with each other yet.

[00:53:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No. We'll get there. That'll be fun. Zack. This is great, man. Good work as always. It was great to see the list and again. The fact that I think you got just as much coverage and buzz and recognition for this, doing it independently is a great sign. Not just for you, but I think in general for people that are always questioning, okay, you know, what's the power of what I do elsewhere versus individually. So great job on that and we'll definitely keep tabs on this coming years. But great work, man, as always. Appreciate that.

[00:54:25] Zack Greenburg: Thanks man. Same to you.

]]> 3303 no Why The Next 10 Years Of Rich Homie Quan’s Career Won’t Be Like The Last https://www.trapital.com/podcast Rich Homie Quan was one of the defining rappers of the music era that preceded the industry’s shift to streaming. He — along with the likes of Future and Young Thug — made “mumble rap” a hot commodity in the mid-2010s. But while Future and Thugger continued their careers, Quan took a hiatus from the game, until now. Quan dropped his first project, “Family & Mula”, in almost three years back in October. During the long layoff, Quan admits he lost both his confidence and heart for rapping. He refused to quit on himself during the down period, which only spurred him artistically and business-wise.  That’s because the eight-track EP is also the first under his independently-owned Rich Homie Entertainment label. Now ten years into his career — most of which spent under a label — Quan felt now was the time to go independent. Not only for the creative freedom, but also for the CEO role that comes with it.  I caught up with Quan to reflect on his 10-year music career up to this point and how he envisions the next ten playing out as an independent artist and a CEO. Here’s everything we covered: [2:41] Reflecting on the loss of Takeoff [4:07] What Quan misses about his “come up” years [5:16] Why Quan went independent at this stage of his career  [5:40] Taking on a CEO role [7:57] Why Quan doesn’t like his hit record “Flex” [10:33] New partnership with Troy Carter and Suzy Ryoo's Venice  [14:44] Differences between Quan the CEO and Quan the artist  [15:54] Rising as an artist before the streaming era took off [17:25] Distinctions between album, EP, and mixtape  [20:16] Quan’s non-music business pursuits  [21:56] How pandemic re-motivated Quan to do music [24:00] Quan wants more credit for influencing Atlanta sound [31:14] Quan’s 10-year vision for himself  [35:54] Did Quan start “deluxe” project drops? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Rich Homie Quan, @RichHomieQuan   Download The Culture Report here: https://trapital.ck.page/a23b7a6a4a   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Rich Homie Quan: I was kind of afraid of my creativity on that song. You know what I'm saying? If that makes any sense. Like, I don't know. Cause I make a lot of music, man, and it's a lot of songs that's probably similar. That's like that. That will never come out only because of my mind. But that's why lately I've been letting the team I create, decide, you know? Pick which ones they feel like that needs to be heard. You know what I'm saying? So that's why I've grown as an artist slash CEO. [00:00:31] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Dan Ruey. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:51] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is the one, the only Rich Homie Quan. R.H.Q came through to talk about his partnership with Venice and how this is a new start for him as an artist. He's independent now. He's seen what it's like on the label side. He's seen what works, and what doesn't work. But this is his opportunity to have more creative control. To see more of the money that comes in and out, and ultimately have more of a say on what makes the most sense for building his career and moving. So he talks about the benefits of the Venice partnership. He also talks about some of the other things that he's working on as well. We talked about his real estate game and how he made over a million dollars this past year from his real estate business. We also talked about where he sees himself in Atlanta's influence. He says he's top three and not three from the city. So you have to listen to hear the name chops that he has in here. Some of the other multimedia projects and a whole lot. Quan also recorded this one while he was getting his hair braided, so I gotta give him credit for multitasking. Shout out to Quan. Hope you enjoy this episode. All right. Today we got the one and only Rich Homie Quan with us. Man, before we get started with any of this stuff, let's just do a quick check, man. How are you? How are you living? How are things right now? [00:02:03] Rich Homie Quan: Oh man, I'm good man. Mentally, better than ever. I'm just in a good space right now, man. I love the space I'm in, probably better than ever, man. I'm good, man. Yeah. How about you, man? How are you, you know what I'm saying? Mentally, you know what I'm saying? You know, spiritually how you feeling?  [00:02:021] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I mean, I'm good. I mean, things have been good getting ready for the holidays and everything right now, but, I feel like it's kind of been a tough week, I'm not gonna lie. Thinking about take off and just thinking about artists passing so young. I mean, I mean, I know that this isn't anything new necessarily, but it just feels like it's been so much recently, so I've been thinking a lot about that. [00:02:41] Rich Homie Quan: That part, you know, like I've been trying to get it out my mind, man. Cause like me and Takeoff wasn't close, but I have worked with him, you know what I'm saying? On numerous occasions, on numerous occasions. And with him being from Atlanta, man, it just hit, that one hit a whole lot different, man. That one touched me, man. That one hurt me, man. That hurt a lot of us, man. You know what I'm saying? Like I think I was walking say the best man, like hip hop took big ill man that that was a humongous ill man. Humongous. [00:03:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And there were so many of you that came up right around the same time. I feel like you came out and then they had the moment, like there were so many of y'all from Atlanta that rose up. [00:03:22] Rich Homie Quan: Yes. Yeah. So that's why it's like, I, I kind of felt a different, like I saw, I saw before, um, they were with QC all us sitting on Gucci couch before we, before we got our first million, when we still were grinding and grind mode. So like, just to see that and know like, man, that could have been me, that could have been any of us. You know what I'm saying? Like, so that, that one definitely like hit me. Alright man, real hard. [00:03:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. And I mean, you were just talking about it, you going back to being I QCs couch. I was just looking back at the double like cell cover, the freshman class for you on the cover. And man, it was such a moment. I mean, when you think back to that moment when everything was rising up, like what do you think on the most, what memories stick out to you the most about that time? [00:04:07] Rich Homie Quan:  Uh, what memories stick out about the most? I would just say more so recording in the music, being so. Because at that time we didn't have all those eyes on us. So then, you know, like we could say whatever and when, and no one, you know, we can say how we really felt. You know what I'm saying? Because you was in that grind and it just, you know, once you get to a certain level and certain things, you can't say no. Cause you know what I'm saying? You got certain people looking at you and that dissecting your words every, every type of way. So I would just say, man, just a recording process, man. Then man, the way we record the way, it'll be all five of us in the booth at one. Or maybe you should say it this way or this way. And it was just a know, just a vibe man. And the learning experience, man. Cause we were so young at that time, like we didn't know we'll be here 10 years later, you feel me? So yeah, that's the beauty of it all.  [00:04:56] Dan Runcie: And I mean, for you 10 years later, you've done a few interview recently. You talked about why you wanna be independent and what this next chapter looks like for you? What has been the big thing that's made you wanna have this next chapter? Be independent, be on your own terms as opposed to how the last decade was up to this point? [00:05:16] Rich Homie Quan: Would say the most important part about being independent and what I wanted about it, what I wanted, uh, from it more so, it was just the fact that I had tried everything else. I had tried being with the other independent labels and I just thought it was my turn. I had saw every side of the sword, but just this side of the sword and it's just been so much more fun.Just when I say fun, it's more so from a business side. And I say that because at first I was such an artist mode. It was hard for me to be a CEO, but to continue to say I'm a CEO when I'm not doing none of the CEO shit. And I say that to say like, I'm not in tune with the conversations, or I'm not on every phone call. I'm not CC'd in those emails and those important emails. So now man, with me being a ceo, I'm more in tune. You know what I'm saying? I'm knowing, I'm knowing what the budget is for this. Uh, just understanding the budget, know what I mean? Understanding, so, you know, just taking this a whole lot more serious, being independent, knowing now, like it's really the, that's why I'm probably in this such great space because I know the opportunity I have, I know what I've done. [00:06:27] Dan Runcie:  You talked about seeing the money and just being able to see what the costs are looking like, what the money's coming in. What was the biggest surprise there? Cause I know you didn't see a lot of that as the artist, but now that you're being CC'd on those emails, now that you're seeing those things, did anything stick out to you? [00:06:40] Rich Homie Quan: The most? To me, uh, it was just more so of money I would see go without videos and stuff like that, and I would have no knowledge on my input when it's my money that's paying for these. That made me just put my, you know, like, damn, I would've rather shot the video with so and so and so, and maybe, you know, it could have been better for a cheaper number than a number of, uh, someone who's big, big, like, you know what I'm saying? So it just started making me like, way more in tune man, just way more in tune and like, how can I call my c myself a CEO if I'm, if I don't have those last say sos on, you know what I'm saying? Who, who, who I think should shoot the video. So it's like, yeah, I just want to stay in tune, man. And stay at it. Stay at it. Yeah. All the way around the boy, man. Like I'm getting older now and I still got people I look up to and I'm looking at some of the transitions they had to make. You know, sometimes you gotta realize everybody can't go with you. Right. And that's part of better.  [00:07:40] Dan Runcie: And I feel like you're talking a lot about something I've heard you talk about at other interviews too. Creative control, being able to have more say so over the process. And I was surprised it stuck out like a song like Flex, which was a hit that people liked. Like you really weren't feeling that song as much.  [00:07:57] Rich Homie Quan: Oh, oh. Like one of mine like, because I felt like at the time Flitch came out, I was such, I was more so of, I don't wanna just say a street rapper, but those were my fans. My fans were like the people who came up from similar situations to me. And I just didn't want my fans to ever think like I was crossing over or making crossover music. And, cause that was one of them songs. Like it wasn't a, I was known for making pain music, you know what I'm saying? So to say. And uh, that was one of, one of those still good different records, but it made, it was, it was a gift and a curse to me cause it made me realize. It's not what I like, it's what people want, and it's all about the fans. And that was my biggest song, like solo to this day. So it's just, it, it just made me realize like co you just, just focus on making the music and let the people decide for you, which is which man, you know what I'm saying? But it turned into a good situation, man. To this day, I still patrol. I still perform Flex Man, you know, so still getting paid off. So, you know, that's. That's one of the perks, man. You know what I'm saying? Trust your team. Definitely trust. Trust your team. The ones that love you, who love you, that you keep around. [00:09:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I feel like that's a balance I hear from even the folks that have been doing this in entertainment for years. I feel like Denzel was someone who had said, he's making all these equalizer movies, right? But he's like, those movies pay the bills so that I can do these August Wilson plays and all of these things that really mean something to him. So I feel like Flex might be that for you, that gives you the ability to do the stuff you really wanna put out so….  [00:09:38] Rich Homie Quan: And that's what it was like. I was kind of afraid of my creativity on that song. You know what I'm saying? If that make any sense. Like, I don't know. Cause I make a lot of music, man, and it's a lot of songs that's probably similar. That's like that, that will never come out only because of my mind. But that's why lately I've been letting the team, I create, let the team decide, you know? Pick which ones they feel like that needs to be heard. You know what I'm saying? So that's why I've grown that as, as an artist slash ceo, know what I'm saying, getting outta the artist mode and going step back. I trust these guys enough. You know what I'm saying? Not, they're not gonna make me look bad, let alone make themselves look bad cause they're part of this. This represents them as well.  [00:10:15] Dan Runcie: Definitely, definitely. And if we fast forward a few years, here you are now you have R.H.Q Entertainment, you recently have the joint venture launch with Venice. Shout out, uh, Troy and Susie, the folks over there. Talk to me about this. What's the vision for that joint venture? Where are things going?  [00:10:33] Rich Homie Quan: Oh man, where are things going? I think, uh, the world is starting to see, and we haven't even got started yet. That's the crazy part. Like we haven't even got started yet, but like, you know, it was one of those situations. The distribution was nothing I hadn't had. You know what I'm saying? So like I said, it's all about me, like always throwing new things and never want, try nothing twice. You know what I'm saying? Like I still don't know like what my future holds, but I just know like, man, Venice has just been such a tremendous help to the RQ brand and for what I got going on, it just fit perfectly. And it wasn't one of those, or we just jumped straight into it. I think like a big shout outta Red man. Cause red, like he did not give up man. And it might have took us six months to get everything just done the right way where everybody's comfortable. And most importantly, everybody wins, man. You know what I'm saying? Big shout out Detroit. I was just with him last night. He flew down here, man. It was tremendous. Every time I'm, I'm big on energy and energy last night. Created a crazy vibe, man. You know what I'm saying? At the vintage man, Susie, everybody, the whole team Alyssa. I don't wanna eat nobody out, but man, uh, I love it, bro. I love it man. And it was the best situation for me. And like I always like to say, I don't wanna encourage no younger artists or anybody upcoming who wants to do music. I'm not saying independence may not be for you because at the same time, music takes money and sometimes a label situation may be the best for you. It just wasn't the best for me anymore. Cause it's something I. You know what I'm saying? And with me being in the game 10 years, like kind of saw it all. And now I know what's best for me, man. The creative control, you know what I'm saying? And like, and I still have a partner, you know, I still have a partner, man, but now man, I'm, I'm really boss ceo and I'm, I'm loving it. [00:12:24] Dan Runcie: So now that you do have a partner, but like you said, they're not a record label, it's more on the distribution side. What are the things that they are gonna be doing for you and like what does that partnership look like in terms of your role, in terms of Venice's role?  [00:12:37] Rich Homie Quan:  Okay. You got a partnership, man. It's more so of a, uh, like a lot of things I didn't know, like on the technology side of things and stuff that's showing me, man, you know what I'm saying? Even with more opportunities outside of. You know, I'm, I think that's the biggest thing now, man. You know, opportunities outside of meals, you know what I'm saying? Movie ventures and stuff like that that I had no idea that I thought I could tap into, but you know what I'm saying? It's showing me, man, it's beautiful man. It's beautiful man. Feel top priority. It feels better. You know what I'm saying? Like I've been in label situations. The team we got over there, they're working hard on 80% of these labels I saw, and I.So that, that's what I love and that's what it's been, that being able to show me, man, that like they ain't playing, they ain't, they ain't playing. You know what I'm saying? [00:13:26] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah. Cause, cause I mean, Troy gets it and I know just seeing the way that they've structured things, a lot of it is thinking about how to think beyond streaming too.Right? Like what does web three look like? What do NFTs look like?  [00:13:39] Rich Homie Quan: Exactly. So that's what I'm saying. It's stuff that I had no knowledge of. Of course I hear it, but now I. A person who can show it. And that's what I told him last night. Like, man, it's different when you, everybody that's talking, but you, you've shown and prove everything you said, man. So, and that's a big, and with me being able to have a direct line to him to be able to talk to him, you know, like, and no showing on the labs. [00:14:29] Dan Runcie: No dope. No, that's for sure, man. So yeah, it's been good to hear you just talk about the ownership and just what it means to be a ceo. And I know it's two different hats you gotta wear. Do you feel like Quan the CEO is any different from Quan the artist?  [00:14:44] Rich Homie Quan: I would definitely say according to CEO is a whole lot different from the, uh, from the artist. And that's only because as an artist, I be in my mind a lot. You know what I'm saying? I be in my mind a whole lot. But as a CEO, I get it. Where you gotta get out your mind. It, it ain't about your mind or your feelings, man. It's business. You know what I'm saying? It's, it's business and, and that's why I have to separate. It's what they're totally. And is only corn as an artist with the microphone, whatever. When I'm not the microphone, it's about the family and it's about the beast. You know what I'm saying? In that order. In that order, and God, of course, first with him being first, you know what I'm saying? I'm backing up. You know the son.  [00:15:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. And thinking back just about your career, I feel like we're just talking at the beginning of the conversation, right? Whether it's you, Migos, Rockos, a few of you that came up in this same timeframe, but I feel like y'all were a little bit early then when streaming really took off. And I often wonder like, man, like they obviously all had successful careers, but would things look any different, and maybe it was like two or three years later when you saw how streaming was streaming really copied what y'all were doing. [00:15:54] Rich Homie Quan: I remember, yes. I remember that. Like when the first, like my biggest records, like those were so hard copies, you know what I'm saying? It's been like, it wasn't no streaming, it was just like, but a lot of my packs packs. You know what I'm saying? Me and record sold like no, like, you know, physically. So it is different. Like there was still city players then and stuff, you know what I'm saying? So it was, when they first started talking streaming, I was like, I can get paid out that, nah man put, I wanna sell money just now. Like you said. I really feel like they got something from the numbers we were doing and, and turned it. All the way. So I love it, man. And that's why this run here is more important. Cause I'm gonna get me some of that. No money, I promise you that. [00:16:37] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah. A whole lot. Yeah. The thing. Yeah, the thing. I feel like that you all. A lot was just dropping in the frequency of when the mix tapes came out. Right. It was like you didn't let up. [00:16:49] Rich Homie Quan: Like all Now and now Mix Tapes are album, they're no more mix tapes, you know what I'm saying? Like I think I saw something from He is gonna bring mix tapes back and it's like even now Mix tapes are album, then there was still mix tapes. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like come on. But yeah, it's ok. I got something.  [00:17:07] Dan Runcie: I know, man. I know. So, yeah. So you had the recent release that came out. It was an EP For you though, how do you distinguish or make a distinction between EP versus albums versus Mix tapes now? Just given that everyone is putting out music and however they wanna label it, maybe.  [00:17:25] Rich Homie Quan: Yeah. Yeah. To me, I differentiate 'em only because man, like, so what? I just put out the little EP man or mix tape. I feel like EP mixtape, same. Mix tape. I'm doing, I'm, uh, I would say I'm rushing the music, uh, album. I'm gonna take a little more time. You know what I'm saying? It's gonna be a little more thought out. It's gonna be, cause I still look up to my favorite albums coming from your, coming from your tis first album. You know what I'm saying? I'm looking at the structure of those and the instruction of those can't be within a month, two month process. That process may take a. You know what I'm saying? Because you know, I need the content to rap about, but that's the only way I differentiate towards the time I put out a man. You know what I'm saying? Time.  [00:18:09] Dan Runcie:  Yeah, that makes sense. And I feel like for the most part, you can hear that from a lot of artists. Once in a while you'll hear a mixed tape that people feel like it's just as goods an album, but for the most part, The more effort that you hear or you hear to the production quality, you hear it in the bars and yeah. [00:18:25] Rich Homie Quan: And they last longer. You know that last longer. That's why I feel like a lot of the music is here, you know, today and gone in two weeks because it's so much similarities and that's why I've been trying to stay creative with the process. Stay corn, don't change my style, but I can't evolve in my sound. And when I say what I mean, it's like, you know, I don't see the same stuff I used to see. Now I'm rapping about the things I'm seeing now. Cause I'm old. I'm trying to put my peers and the, uh, the younger generation on real estate, man, that's probably less jewelry. Let's be, you know what I'm saying, little less flashy and get the things that really matter. You know what I mean? We, we screen the block, let's go buy a couple of properties on the block. So now, now we have a reason to, you know what I'm saying? Stuff of that nature, man, you know, and me just, you know, respecting my position and, you know, playing it. [00:19:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah. You been getting more real.  [00:19:16] Rich Homie Quan: Oh man. A whole lot. Whole lot. And I think last year, you know what I'm saying, a million plus on real estate, you know what I'm saying? And not a music checking ball, you feel me? Just last year. So I definitely getting into a whole lot more, man. [00:19:31] Dan Runcie: Nice. Was that a rental property or a sale property to be here?  [00:19:37] Rich Homie Quan: Uh, rental. A couple of flips and me selling my first. Nice. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it's like, yeah, I did a million plus in real estate. No rap, no rap cap. And is this mostly in Georgia or is it El you got,  uh, not only in Georgia, you know, like I'm born and raised here, now I'm getting on. Now I have, I'm getting to the level I'm going out, you know, in different states and, you know what I'm saying, going to buy, you know, smaller, smaller stuff and just, uh, revamping them, doing resell. I'm doing a clip flipping and stuff like that, man.  [00:20:08] Dan Runcie: That's what's up man. That's what's up. Appreciate that, man. Yeah. Are there any other businesses that you've been getting involved with outside of music? Uhuh, you?  [00:20:16] Rich Homie Quan: Yes, sir. Uh, also with the 18 wheelers, got a couple of 18 wheelers, you know what I'm saying? We got box trucks, you know what I'm saying? A couple of car lots and stuff like that. Car mechanics, some stuff like that. It's every type of way to keep it. Keep it rolling man. Keep it moving, man. You know what I'm saying? The pandemic opened my eyes up a whole. And I really had to take advantage of that time opposed just sitting in the house making babies. [00:20:42] (Mid Ad) Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to tell you about a podcast I am sure you'll love. It's called nineties Now, A show all about the music, movies, tv, pop culture, and more from the nineties with a twist of what's happening. It's hosted by two radio vets, Kelly Alexander and Sharon Highland, along with their millennial producer Alex Brisson. The three of them navigate all that is and was the nineties, and you'll hear a wide range of nineties music. They had a really interesting episode about Diddy and Bad Boy and him starting a new record label. They had another breakdown on Beyonce, especially with Renaissance coming. And they look back at the decade that was the film, the TV, and so much more. And you'll also get to catch up with some of the beloved actors and actresses and entertainers that made that decade what it is. You can find nineties now on all of the major podcast platforms. Also check out their website nineties now.com or follow them on social media at nineties. Now fm [00:21:44] Dan Runcie:  I hear you on that man. I hear you on that. What was it like for you during the pandemic? Obviously you couldn't tour. I know that gave you an opportunity to explore these other ventures, but what was it like for you.  [00:21:56] Rich Homie Quan: uh, the pandemic? Uh, what was it like for me? Uh, I would say that's definitely the moment I caught my groove back in the music. Opposed when I had took that long break. You know what? Being here. Cause I had just moved at that time. I had just moved and got me another house. I had bought my, uh, the house for something. And when I moved, I didn't set the studio equipment up for like close to a year. Just I, I'm syn like, come on man. And I think, I think the Migos might have had a just drop sign. I'm had my employees just dropped, but I'm hitting like in a competitor mode. Like I go drop me one two with just like, man, get up off your ass and go. Go get up off your ass and go do something. And since that day, man, I haven't started recording. I built, I built the studio back at the house. A new one, A dope one. That's where I'm at now. And get here, get it done. And it's just like my whole mindset changed like, nah man, we ain't giving up. We ain't quit right now. Nah, man, I'm from Atlanta. We, we don't throw in any white flash. You feel me? It's going hard. I think, um, it started with that then from dropping some music, uh, in Lincoln with Ben and them trusting my plan and wanting to have my back, you know?  [00:23:05] Dan Runcie: For sure. What has it been like for you with live music just coming back in general? Have you been going and doing as many shows as you were doing before the pandemic? [00:23:17] Rich Homie Quan: I would definitely say I'm doing more shows than I was doing before the pandemic, and that's probably because of the new music we've been dropping. But I've been trying to get like a little more social, social active on the social media a little bit too, man, that's, that's played a part and me just, you know, like I say, taking it a whole lot serious, more serious now realizing that the game don't need me, game doesn't change the players do. And realizing that I need the game, so let me act like I need this shit like you. Changing my mindset shit, man. That's,  [00:23:49] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And in other interviews too, you've talked about your place in Atlanta hip hop and your respect in Atlanta, hip hop ain’t you say you feel like you don't get the credit you deserve. [00:24:00] Rich Homie Quan: Nah, I don't, I don't, I don't get the credit. Uh, I don't, uh, like I say, I feel like the sound, like the Atlanta sound today. I feel like I should be one of those ones in that heavily influenced sound. You know what I'm saying? But I wasn't vocal about it then. So I don't respect them. But they know, like we know, like we know and they know, you know what I'm saying? Like you can't mention the Atlanta sound today without mentioning corn. Corn, period. Period. You know what I'm saying? That's why I'm, you know, top three and I'm not three. And that's, that's, that's what it's been. And I'm gonna show, I'm gonna show these people that I'm gonna show you. I'm gonna let the music show you. It ain't just me saying it. I know what I, I know what we've been working on. They gonna see what I'm top three. [00:24:44] Dan Runcie: And so top three are not three. Who? The other two? I don't know. That's what the people decide. I didn't know three because, like I, but cause it's really like a five in hour. Like I got like a. And the five will be, um, no order. Savage is up there and it's just for today. It's not all time. You know what I'm saying? Bro. You got Savage up there. You got Future Up, you got Thug up there, baby up there, and myself up there and I'm just, you know, I'm top three and three. That's for everybody else.  [00:24:47] Rich Homie Quan: I don't know. That's what the people to decide. I didn't know three because, like I, but cause it's really like a five in hour. Like I got like a. And the five will be, um, no order. Savage is up there and it's just for today. It's not all time. You know what I'm saying? Bro. You got Savage up there. You got Future Up, you got Thug up there, baby up there, and myself up there and I'm just, you know, I'm top three and three. That's for everybody else.  [00:25:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, I hear that. And I mean, just here are the names you think about, thinking about you and a thug. I mean, I feel like lifestyle is one of the most influential songs of the decade. [00:25:27] Rich Homie Quan: For sure,  for sure. Yeah, for sure. Or lifestyle and definitely that the uh, the rich game mix tape, the rich Oh yeah. Tape as well as the still going in. And I promise I never stopped going in that influenced the sound that influenced the sound man. Cause that's when the differences came. The some type of wave and, oh man, that room was crazy that that decade did. It definitely influenced the sound.You know what I'm saying? [00:25:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I mean, even just the way that you see that artists are trying to do multiple things on a track, whether they're trying to sing, they're trying to real like the, I feel like you dug a lot of you were doing that early. So you combine that. You combine with the frequency that people are released in music. We, a lot of these pop stars just, you know, try to do different things on the, at all. [00:26:23] Rich Homie Quan: You know what I'm saying? Like Yeah, I think, I think we showed it like they ain't gotta be a single, the hold the tone. And I think it more people just want to go try like that. Cause I know I can't sing, but I can hold a decent song where I can make you, I can, I can trick your mind. And I think a lot of people want to try that and that's why, that's why you hear it so much. It's an unorthodox sound. We ain't trying to sing, but it does sound, we try to hold a song and you hear that in 80% of the music you on the radio today. If you weren't hearing that then 10 years ago, that's all I’m saying. [00:27:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, you see where the trend is for sure. But yeah, I mean, For you. I do know that, you know, even though you had that moment, there was a period where you know, you weren't released in music and there was, I know that in past interviews you've talked about how it was a bit of a difficult time for you. What was it like for you to be able to come back from that? I know you talked a little bit about how the pandemic was an opportunity for you to reset things. What was it like for you to really be able to come out of that and then still be in the place that you, you are today?  [00:27:42] Rich Homie Quan: Oh, man. To come outta it, I think it was just like amazing. Took a whole lot of praying for one, stand down and like I said, man, not wanting to give up, man. You know what I'm saying? Knowing like, I think I, I started something beautiful and it's still so. So many pages I've yet to get to, and I know I'm capable of getting to, I get to scratch the surface and like me being such an asshole to myself, you know what I'm saying? Like on days I would just make up, I would wake up mad just for no reason and like the people around me didn't deserve it. You know what I'm saying? Like. I'm the leader and a lot of times like, man, I just know, like I couldn't, I couldn't continue to live like that and call myself a child of God, man. You feel me? So once I got that cloud, my head, man, it felt, it felt amazing, man. But I had to take it a day at a time like it. I wouldn't be talking the way I'm talking now if I didn't get filed over. Like it was some tough, tough, tough nights. Like I think, like I said, I went a year without getting in the. And I've always kept me a studio, like at my house, like a nice, yo, I didn't, I didn't listen to the radio three years, you know what I'm saying? But I'm still doing shows. Like I never stopped doing show, but my, my heart wasn't in my mind, was there, but my heart wasn't it. And I think like in this bitch heart gotta be in anything. And I like for my shit genuine and you know what I'm saying? My heart just wasn't in it. So sitting back in this house for that, Um, reminiscing on a lot of things, a lot of memories, those good ones. And waking up one day is like, well, this is how you gonna hear your story. And I myself telling myself like, you better than all these niggas. But in order to say that, you gotta go put in the work to be able to show, show that. And that's what it was, man. And I ain't got, I ain't got, I did in room since I do everything down here. I sleep down. You as you see, I'm getting my hair braided down here. We play the game down, the vibes down here, it your energy out. Don't even come down here. You know? And that's just what it been, man.  [00:29:58] Dan Runcie: And I've imagine that some of that exact competitive nature too, right? Yeah. You don't listen to the radio for three years. You're focused, you're locked in, but you're still performing. When you start listening to the radio again, I'm sure you're hearing what's popping off and you're like, no, I'm better than these. [00:30:13] Rich Homie Quan: Oh yeah. Like when I'm hearing, I'm like, oh, this what people going crazy about. Oh no. We got to, we got to go to work.To go to work. And it was like, and when I started going to work, like at first I didn't, I felt like, um, cause I, I was so used to doing songs fast, like going crazy. And when I got back in there, it wasn't like I just got back in there and was the, it was the corner I am today. Oh no, it took time. It might have took six months before I got back to playing my songs back in the car from my, for the people around me. You know what I'm saying? So still I had to gain my confidence back, man. I had to get it back man. But I got it. Oh, I got it. I got it. [00:30:50] Dan Runcie: And I know too for you, I feel like there's a few things, cuz obviously it's you as an artist, like we're talking about Wanda artist building that up. You've got the confidence and you got the swag back with that. But I know that you've talked a lot about how 10 years from now you want Wanda CEO to be doing more of the work and you don't necessarily wanna be making music as much. You talk to me about what you see that 10 years from now looking like. [00:31:14] Rich Homie Quan: Uh,  10 years from now is a long time and I try not to see that. Like, and when I said. Cause I try to make like real short term goals that are real possible. But I do know and I like 10 years from now, I'll be 43 and I probably said 12. Cause 45 sounds like a better number just to leave it alone. It um, I won't be focusing on Coin the artist, but as far as point the CEO coin, the CEO may start writing more. Cause I just love music that much, but I still can never not see myself created. So, uh, I've been even dipping into it now, like more writing. Writing more, but I would probably doing, writing more, focusing on, cause I been trying, I've been doing models moderat lately when they do the fashion show, I'm walking the runway. It's the first time I did that, I had just did the fashion week. So I'm already trying how that? [00:32:05] Dan Runcie: How did you like doing the runway for the fashion show? [00:32:07] Rich Homie Quan: Well, I haven't done that yet. I, I do that next week. But just the fashion snow itself, just going to fashion week in new. Aw man. Amazing man. Like, just being around people like, oh my, like, I was almost like, I didn't want my phone. I, but I was, man, that's the boy from my show out. You know what I'm saying? Just like seeing Cal coo, no, see, uh, you saying boat? Amy? What's her name? Amy W Winnie. Winnie Harlo. Yeah. Winnie Harlow. Man. Like just seeing her in person, just made and being. Front next to talking to court a like, dang. It just gets you in different room. I'm, and I'm saying like, I maybe could do this. I maybe we could do this for the next 20 years after rap. You know, I'm saying stuff like that. So it's just like, you know, other stuff. Even like being an author, I wanna come out with a memoir. I'm ready to write my book, you know what I'm saying? Cause I do want to get in movies and I, uh, wanna come out with a autobiography movie one day. So, not even me playing myself, but at least writing it. I'm trying to get in directing, trying to get in. I see 10 years from now I see myself, that guy, man.  [00:33:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Okay. I feel like we're gonna see you at the Met Gala next year or something. [00:33:15] Rich Homie Quan: For sure. For sure, for sure. I'm gonna be at, uh, try to be at a whole lot more of a man, a whole lot more and all this stuff that's clean. I just gotta let 'em know I do this shit too. [00:33:26] Dan Runcie: The memoirs are good. I mean, Gucci's was good. Ross's was good. I mean, there's so much, and I mean, you're obviously gonna be able to tell stuff that no one's stole before. You're gonna have the … [00:33:35] Rich Homie Quan: Yeah, and I got stories that, I got stories that I know like, I mean, I just don't give that, I think that would be dope into a book. Like, especially me being real, I think it'll be more raw. Cause I love to read, so I would definitely give more, more details on my book, you know what I mean? I would definitely, yeah, it get spicy, it get spicy. [00:33:55] Dan Runcie: Have you done as much on TikTok lately? Just, you know, whether you are the on camera, off camera and, and I'm have a lot of opinions about it. [00:34:03] Rich Homie Quan: Yeah. I'm, I'm still adjusting. I'm still adjusting. I'm still adjusting. So now a lot of my TikTok has been like, like stuck on the music, but I'm starting, I'm, I'm gonna start, I'm, I'm gonna get a little more personal show, show the fans a different side of me. Cause that's what I'm transitioning to now. Like I am a rapper and that's what fans love. I'm transitioning just to showing them a little bit of, a little bit more of my personal side and just decide deciding which side of my personal side and what I'm willing to reveal. No, that makes sense. Cause I want to be authentic. I don't just wanna get on there cause everybody's doing it. I wanna have something different to offer and that, you know, it's authentic. You're getting a real me. [00:34:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, like, I can't see you trying to do some like trick, like, you know what I mean? Like everyone trying to do these visual tricks. [00:34:48] Rich Homie Quan: Like no, never, never, never, never, never. That, that, that goes against my morals and ethics, you know what I'm saying? Like , you know what I mean? [00:34:57] Dan Runcie:  Yeah. No, for sure man. Well, no man, I'm excited for you, man. I feel like this is a good chapter. I feel like whether it's a pandemic or other things, like these triggers that happen in life, give us a good opportunity. Just pause, reset, and come back stronger. And I feel like you got the infrastructure there to keep moving, man. So proud of you. Excited for you for what's coming, but man, before we let you go, give us a heads up of what to look out for. What should we look out for the next couple months coming?  [00:35:25] Rich Homie Quan: Uh, next couple of months coming from me. We In November. Yeah. Oh shit. Some weeks after this, man, you can look for us to be reloading the family in Moula. You know what I'm saying? We're not gonna call it a deluxe, we're just gonna reload it. Cause I feel like the reloaded is a deluxe anyway. And I think like that's a trend I started years ago. So they, they, they say deluxe, but we reloading it with seven new songs. [00:35:51] Dan Runcie:  Wait, wait. So, so you started the deluxe.  [00:35:54] Rich Homie Quan: Yes. I'm not gonna say that, but it was called Reload. No, God, I'm not gonna say I started, but I think I did. You know what I'm saying? I think, I think men, I think Men Thug, what's the first artist doing? You know what I'm saying? The Duo Mix tape that they name the album. You know what I'm saying? So it's like a, you know what I'm saying? You know, history beats yourself.  [00:36:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So dope man. We'll look out for that and we'll look out for the rest of this stuff coming from you. [00:36:23] Rich Homie Quan: And more videos. Yeah, more, more videos in your face. A whole lot more. Yeah, man. More RQ, the brand, more RQ Time, Venice and more of us going up putting it in they face. Man. I'm on the way. We're here now. We're here now.  [00:36:39] Dan Runcie: Love it man. I love it. Quan, it's been a pleasure, man. Thanks for joining.  [00:36:44] Rich Homie Quan: Thank you, man. Thu, 01 Dec 2022 09:00:00 -0000 Why The Next 10 Years Of Rich Homie Quan’s Career Won’t Be Like The Last full Dan Runcie Rich Homie Quan was one of the defining rappers of the music era that preceded the industry’s shift to streaming. He — along with the likes of Future and Young Thug — made “mumble rap” a hot commodity in the mid-2010s. But while Future and Thugger continued their careers, Quan took a hiatus from the game, until now. Quan dropped his first project, “Family & Mula”, in almost three years back in October. During the long layoff, Quan admits he lost both his confidence and heart for rapping. He refused to quit on himself during the down period, which only spurred him artistically and business-wise.  That’s because the eight-track EP is also the first under his independently-owned Rich Homie Entertainment label. Now ten years into his career — most of which spent under a label — Quan felt now was the time to go independent. Not only for the creative freedom, but also for the CEO role that comes with it.  I caught up with Quan to reflect on his 10-year music career up to this point and how he envisions the next ten playing out as an independent artist and a CEO. Here’s everything we covered: [2:41] Reflecting on the loss of Takeoff [4:07] What Quan misses about his “come up” years [5:16] Why Quan went independent at this stage of his career  [5:40] Taking on a CEO role [7:57] Why Quan doesn’t like his hit record “Flex” [10:33] New partnership with Troy Carter and Suzy Ryoo's Venice  [14:44] Differences between Quan the CEO and Quan the artist  [15:54] Rising as an artist before the streaming era took off [17:25] Distinctions between album, EP, and mixtape  [20:16] Quan’s non-music business pursuits  [21:56] How pandemic re-motivated Quan to do music [24:00] Quan wants more credit for influencing Atlanta sound [31:14] Quan’s 10-year vision for himself  [35:54] Did Quan start “deluxe” project drops? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Rich Homie Quan, @RichHomieQuan   Download The Culture Report here: https://trapital.ck.page/a23b7a6a4a   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Rich Homie Quan: I was kind of afraid of my creativity on that song. You know what I'm saying? If that makes any sense. Like, I don't know. Cause I make a lot of music, man, and it's a lot of songs that's probably similar. That's like that. That will never come out only because of my mind. But that's why lately I've been letting the team I create, decide, you know? Pick which ones they feel like that needs to be heard. You know what I'm saying? So that's why I've grown as an artist slash CEO. [00:00:31] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Dan Ruey. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:51] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is the one, the only Rich Homie Quan. R.H.Q came through to talk about his partnership with Venice and how this is a new start for him as an artist. He's independent now. He's seen what it's like on the label side. He's seen what works, and what doesn't work. But this is his opportunity to have more creative control. To see more of the money that comes in and out, and ultimately have more of a say on what makes the most sense for building his career and moving. So he talks about the benefits of the Venice partnership. He also talks about some of the other things that he's working on as well. We talked about his real estate game and how he made over a million dollars this past year from his real estate business. We also talked about where he sees himself in Atlanta's influence. He says he's top three and not three from the city. So you have to listen to hear the name chops that he has in here. Some of the other multimedia projects and a whole lot. Quan also recorded this one while he was getting his hair braided, so I gotta give him credit for multitasking. Shout out to Quan. Hope you enjoy this episode. All right. Today we got the one and only Rich Homie Quan with us. Man, before we get started with any of this stuff, let's just do a quick check, man. How are you? How are you living? How are things right now? [00:02:03] Rich Homie Quan: Oh man, I'm good man. Mentally, better than ever. I'm just in a good space right now, man. I love the space I'm in, probably better than ever, man. I'm good, man. Yeah. How about you, man? How are you, you know what I'm saying? Mentally, you know what I'm saying? You know, spiritually how you feeling?  [00:02:021] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I mean, I'm good. I mean, things have been good getting ready for the holidays and everything right now, but, I feel like it's kind of been a tough week, I'm not gonna lie. Thinking about take off and just thinking about artists passing so young. I mean, I mean, I know that this isn't anything new necessarily, but it just feels like it's been so much recently, so I've been thinking a lot about that. [00:02:41] Rich Homie Quan: That part, you know, like I've been trying to get it out my mind, man. Cause like me and Takeoff wasn't close, but I have worked with him, you know what I'm saying? On numerous occasions, on numerous occasions. And with him being from Atlanta, man, it just hit, that one hit a whole lot different, man. That one touched me, man. That one hurt me, man. That hurt a lot of us, man. You know what I'm saying? Like I think I was walking say the best man, like hip hop took big ill man that that was a humongous ill man. Humongous. [00:03:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And there were so many of you that came up right around the same time. I feel like you came out and then they had the moment, like there were so many of y'all from Atlanta that rose up. [00:03:22] Rich Homie Quan: Yes. Yeah. So that's why it's like, I, I kind of felt a different, like I saw, I saw before, um, they were with QC all us sitting on Gucci couch before we, before we got our first million, when we still were grinding and grind mode. So like, just to see that and know like, man, that could have been me, that could have been any of us. You know what I'm saying? Like, so that, that one definitely like hit me. Alright man, real hard. [00:03:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. And I mean, you were just talking about it, you going back to being I QCs couch. I was just looking back at the double like cell cover, the freshman class for you on the cover. And man, it was such a moment. I mean, when you think back to that moment when everything was rising up, like what do you think on the most, what memories stick out to you the most about that time? [00:04:07] Rich Homie Quan:  Uh, what memories stick out about the most? I would just say more so recording in the music, being so. Because at that time we didn't have all those eyes on us. So then, you know, like we could say whatever and when, and no one, you know, we can say how we really felt. You know what I'm saying? Because you was in that grind and it just, you know, once you get to a certain level and certain things, you can't say no. Cause you know what I'm saying? You got certain people looking at you and that dissecting your words every, every type of way. So I would just say, man, just a recording process, man. Then man, the way we record the way, it'll be all five of us in the booth at one. Or maybe you should say it this way or this way. And it was just a know, just a vibe man. And the learning experience, man. Cause we were so young at that time, like we didn't know we'll be here 10 years later, you feel me? So yeah, that's the beauty of it all.  [00:04:56] Dan Runcie: And I mean, for you 10 years later, you've done a few interview recently. You talked about why you wanna be independent and what this next chapter looks like for you? What has been the big thing that's made you wanna have this next chapter? Be independent, be on your own terms as opposed to how the last decade was up to this point? [00:05:16] Rich Homie Quan: Would say the most important part about being independent and what I wanted about it, what I wanted, uh, from it more so, it was just the fact that I had tried everything else. I had tried being with the other independent labels and I just thought it was my turn. I had saw every side of the sword, but just this side of the sword and it's just been so much more fun.Just when I say fun, it's more so from a business side. And I say that because at first I was such an artist mode. It was hard for me to be a CEO, but to continue to say I'm a CEO when I'm not doing none of the CEO shit. And I say that to say like, I'm not in tune with the conversations, or I'm not on every phone call. I'm not CC'd in those emails and those important emails. So now man, with me being a ceo, I'm more in tune. You know what I'm saying? I'm knowing, I'm knowing what the budget is for this. Uh, just understanding the budget, know what I mean? Understanding, so, you know, just taking this a whole lot more serious, being independent, knowing now, like it's really the, that's why I'm probably in this such great space because I know the opportunity I have, I know what I've done. [00:06:27] Dan Runcie:  You talked about seeing the money and just being able to see what the costs are looking like, what the money's coming in. What was the biggest surprise there? Cause I know you didn't see a lot of that as the artist, but now that you're being CC'd on those emails, now that you're seeing those things, did anything stick out to you? [00:06:40] Rich Homie Quan: The most? To me, uh, it was just more so of money I would see go without videos and stuff like that, and I would have no knowledge on my input when it's my money that's paying for these. That made me just put my, you know, like, damn, I would've rather shot the video with so and so and so, and maybe, you know, it could have been better for a cheaper number than a number of, uh, someone who's big, big, like, you know what I'm saying? So it just started making me like, way more in tune man, just way more in tune and like, how can I call my c myself a CEO if I'm, if I don't have those last say sos on, you know what I'm saying? Who, who, who I think should shoot the video. So it's like, yeah, I just want to stay in tune, man. And stay at it. Stay at it. Yeah. All the way around the boy, man. Like I'm getting older now and I still got people I look up to and I'm looking at some of the transitions they had to make. You know, sometimes you gotta realize everybody can't go with you. Right. And that's part of better.  [00:07:40] Dan Runcie: And I feel like you're talking a lot about something I've heard you talk about at other interviews too. Creative control, being able to have more say so over the process. And I was surprised it stuck out like a song like Flex, which was a hit that people liked. Like you really weren't feeling that song as much.  [00:07:57] Rich Homie Quan: Oh, oh. Like one of mine like, because I felt like at the time Flitch came out, I was such, I was more so of, I don't wanna just say a street rapper, but those were my fans. My fans were like the people who came up from similar situations to me. And I just didn't want my fans to ever think like I was crossing over or making crossover music. And, cause that was one of them songs. Like it wasn't a, I was known for making pain music, you know what I'm saying? So to say. And uh, that was one of, one of those still good different records, but it made, it was, it was a gift and a curse to me cause it made me realize. It's not what I like, it's what people want, and it's all about the fans. And that was my biggest song, like solo to this day. So it's just, it, it just made me realize like co you just, just focus on making the music and let the people decide for you, which is which man, you know what I'm saying? But it turned into a good situation, man. To this day, I still patrol. I still perform Flex Man, you know, so still getting paid off. So, you know, that's. That's one of the perks, man. You know what I'm saying? Trust your team. Definitely trust. Trust your team. The ones that love you, who love you, that you keep around. [00:09:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I feel like that's a balance I hear from even the folks that have been doing this in entertainment for years. I feel like Denzel was someone who had said, he's making all these equalizer movies, right? But he's like, those movies pay the bills so that I can do these August Wilson plays and all of these things that really mean something to him. So I feel like Flex might be that for you, that gives you the ability to do the stuff you really wanna put out so….  [00:09:38] Rich Homie Quan: And that's what it was like. I was kind of afraid of my creativity on that song. You know what I'm saying? If that make any sense. Like, I don't know. Cause I make a lot of music, man, and it's a lot of songs that's probably similar. That's like that, that will never come out only because of my mind. But that's why lately I've been letting the team, I create, let the team decide, you know? Pick which ones they feel like that needs to be heard. You know what I'm saying? So that's why I've grown that as, as an artist slash ceo, know what I'm saying, getting outta the artist mode and going step back. I trust these guys enough. You know what I'm saying? Not, they're not gonna make me look bad, let alone make themselves look bad cause they're part of this. This represents them as well.  [00:10:15] Dan Runcie: Definitely, definitely. And if we fast forward a few years, here you are now you have R.H.Q Entertainment, you recently have the joint venture launch with Venice. Shout out, uh, Troy and Susie, the folks over there. Talk to me about this. What's the vision for that joint venture? Where are things going?  [00:10:33] Rich Homie Quan: Oh man, where are things going? I think, uh, the world is starting to see, and we haven't even got started yet. That's the crazy part. Like we haven't even got started yet, but like, you know, it was one of those situations. The distribution was nothing I hadn't had. You know what I'm saying? So like I said, it's all about me, like always throwing new things and never want, try nothing twice. You know what I'm saying? Like I still don't know like what my future holds, but I just know like, man, Venice has just been such a tremendous help to the RQ brand and for what I got going on, it just fit perfectly. And it wasn't one of those, or we just jumped straight into it. I think like a big shout outta Red man. Cause red, like he did not give up man. And it might have took us six months to get everything just done the right way where everybody's comfortable. And most importantly, everybody wins, man. You know what I'm saying? Big shout out Detroit. I was just with him last night. He flew down here, man. It was tremendous. Every time I'm, I'm big on energy and energy last night. Created a crazy vibe, man. You know what I'm saying? At the vintage man, Susie, everybody, the whole team Alyssa. I don't wanna eat nobody out, but man, uh, I love it, bro. I love it man. And it was the best situation for me. And like I always like to say, I don't wanna encourage no younger artists or anybody upcoming who wants to do music. I'm not saying independence may not be for you because at the same time, music takes money and sometimes a label situation may be the best for you. It just wasn't the best for me anymore. Cause it's something I. You know what I'm saying? And with me being in the game 10 years, like kind of saw it all. And now I know what's best for me, man. The creative control, you know what I'm saying? And like, and I still have a partner, you know, I still have a partner, man, but now man, I'm, I'm really boss ceo and I'm, I'm loving it. [00:12:24] Dan Runcie: So now that you do have a partner, but like you said, they're not a record label, it's more on the distribution side. What are the things that they are gonna be doing for you and like what does that partnership look like in terms of your role, in terms of Venice's role?  [00:12:37] Rich Homie Quan:  Okay. You got a partnership, man. It's more so of a, uh, like a lot of things I didn't know, like on the technology side of things and stuff that's showing me, man, you know what I'm saying? Even with more opportunities outside of. You know, I'm, I think that's the biggest thing now, man. You know, opportunities outside of meals, you know what I'm saying? Movie ventures and stuff like that that I had no idea that I thought I could tap into, but you know what I'm saying? It's showing me, man, it's beautiful man. It's beautiful man. Feel top priority. It feels better. You know what I'm saying? Like I've been in label situations. The team we got over there, they're working hard on 80% of these labels I saw, and I.So that, that's what I love and that's what it's been, that being able to show me, man, that like they ain't playing, they ain't, they ain't playing. You know what I'm saying? [00:13:26] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah. Cause, cause I mean, Troy gets it and I know just seeing the way that they've structured things, a lot of it is thinking about how to think beyond streaming too.Right? Like what does web three look like? What do NFTs look like?  [00:13:39] Rich Homie Quan: Exactly. So that's what I'm saying. It's stuff that I had no knowledge of. Of course I hear it, but now I. A person who can show it. And that's what I told him last night. Like, man, it's different when you, everybody that's talking, but you, you've shown and prove everything you said, man. So, and that's a big, and with me being able to have a direct line to him to be able to talk to him, you know, like, and no showing on the labs. [00:14:29] Dan Runcie: No dope. No, that's for sure, man. So yeah, it's been good to hear you just talk about the ownership and just what it means to be a ceo. And I know it's two different hats you gotta wear. Do you feel like Quan the CEO is any different from Quan the artist?  [00:14:44] Rich Homie Quan: I would definitely say according to CEO is a whole lot different from the, uh, from the artist. And that's only because as an artist, I be in my mind a lot. You know what I'm saying? I be in my mind a whole lot. But as a CEO, I get it. Where you gotta get out your mind. It, it ain't about your mind or your feelings, man. It's business. You know what I'm saying? It's, it's business and, and that's why I have to separate. It's what they're totally. And is only corn as an artist with the microphone, whatever. When I'm not the microphone, it's about the family and it's about the beast. You know what I'm saying? In that order. In that order, and God, of course, first with him being first, you know what I'm saying? I'm backing up. You know the son.  [00:15:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. And thinking back just about your career, I feel like we're just talking at the beginning of the conversation, right? Whether it's you, Migos, Rockos, a few of you that came up in this same timeframe, but I feel like y'all were a little bit early then when streaming really took off. And I often wonder like, man, like they obviously all had successful careers, but would things look any different, and maybe it was like two or three years later when you saw how streaming was streaming really copied what y'all were doing. [00:15:54] Rich Homie Quan: I remember, yes. I remember that. Like when the first, like my biggest records, like those were so hard copies, you know what I'm saying? It's been like, it wasn't no streaming, it was just like, but a lot of my packs packs. You know what I'm saying? Me and record sold like no, like, you know, physically. So it is different. Like there was still city players then and stuff, you know what I'm saying? So it was, when they first started talking streaming, I was like, I can get paid out that, nah man put, I wanna sell money just now. Like you said. I really feel like they got something from the numbers we were doing and, and turned it. All the way. So I love it, man. And that's why this run here is more important. Cause I'm gonna get me some of that. No money, I promise you that. [00:16:37] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah. A whole lot. Yeah. The thing. Yeah, the thing. I feel like that you all. A lot was just dropping in the frequency of when the mix tapes came out. Right. It was like you didn't let up. [00:16:49] Rich Homie Quan: Like all Now and now Mix Tapes are album, they're no more mix tapes, you know what I'm saying? Like I think I saw something from He is gonna bring mix tapes back and it's like even now Mix tapes are album, then there was still mix tapes. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like come on. But yeah, it's ok. I got something.  [00:17:07] Dan Runcie: I know, man. I know. So, yeah. So you had the recent release that came out. It was an EP For you though, how do you distinguish or make a distinction between EP versus albums versus Mix tapes now? Just given that everyone is putting out music and however they wanna label it, maybe.  [00:17:25] Rich Homie Quan: Yeah. Yeah. To me, I differentiate 'em only because man, like, so what? I just put out the little EP man or mix tape. I feel like EP mixtape, same. Mix tape. I'm doing, I'm, uh, I would say I'm rushing the music, uh, album. I'm gonna take a little more time. You know what I'm saying? It's gonna be a little more thought out. It's gonna be, cause I still look up to my favorite albums coming from your, coming from your tis first album. You know what I'm saying? I'm looking at the structure of those and the instruction of those can't be within a month, two month process. That process may take a. You know what I'm saying? Because you know, I need the content to rap about, but that's the only way I differentiate towards the time I put out a man. You know what I'm saying? Time.  [00:18:09] Dan Runcie:  Yeah, that makes sense. And I feel like for the most part, you can hear that from a lot of artists. Once in a while you'll hear a mixed tape that people feel like it's just as goods an album, but for the most part, The more effort that you hear or you hear to the production quality, you hear it in the bars and yeah. [00:18:25] Rich Homie Quan: And they last longer. You know that last longer. That's why I feel like a lot of the music is here, you know, today and gone in two weeks because it's so much similarities and that's why I've been trying to stay creative with the process. Stay corn, don't change my style, but I can't evolve in my sound. And when I say what I mean, it's like, you know, I don't see the same stuff I used to see. Now I'm rapping about the things I'm seeing now. Cause I'm old. I'm trying to put my peers and the, uh, the younger generation on real estate, man, that's probably less jewelry. Let's be, you know what I'm saying, little less flashy and get the things that really matter. You know what I mean? We, we screen the block, let's go buy a couple of properties on the block. So now, now we have a reason to, you know what I'm saying? Stuff of that nature, man, you know, and me just, you know, respecting my position and, you know, playing it. [00:19:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah. You been getting more real.  [00:19:16] Rich Homie Quan: Oh man. A whole lot. Whole lot. And I think last year, you know what I'm saying, a million plus on real estate, you know what I'm saying? And not a music checking ball, you feel me? Just last year. So I definitely getting into a whole lot more, man. [00:19:31] Dan Runcie: Nice. Was that a rental property or a sale property to be here?  [00:19:37] Rich Homie Quan: Uh, rental. A couple of flips and me selling my first. Nice. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it's like, yeah, I did a million plus in real estate. No rap, no rap cap. And is this mostly in Georgia or is it El you got,  uh, not only in Georgia, you know, like I'm born and raised here, now I'm getting on. Now I have, I'm getting to the level I'm going out, you know, in different states and, you know what I'm saying, going to buy, you know, smaller, smaller stuff and just, uh, revamping them, doing resell. I'm doing a clip flipping and stuff like that, man.  [00:20:08] Dan Runcie: That's what's up man. That's what's up. Appreciate that, man. Yeah. Are there any other businesses that you've been getting involved with outside of music? Uhuh, you?  [00:20:16] Rich Homie Quan: Yes, sir. Uh, also with the 18 wheelers, got a couple of 18 wheelers, you know what I'm saying? We got box trucks, you know what I'm saying? A couple of car lots and stuff like that. Car mechanics, some stuff like that. It's every type of way to keep it. Keep it rolling man. Keep it moving, man. You know what I'm saying? The pandemic opened my eyes up a whole. And I really had to take advantage of that time opposed just sitting in the house making babies. [00:20:42] (Mid Ad) Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to tell you about a podcast I am sure you'll love. It's called nineties Now, A show all about the music, movies, tv, pop culture, and more from the nineties with a twist of what's happening. It's hosted by two radio vets, Kelly Alexander and Sharon Highland, along with their millennial producer Alex Brisson. The three of them navigate all that is and was the nineties, and you'll hear a wide range of nineties music. They had a really interesting episode about Diddy and Bad Boy and him starting a new record label. They had another breakdown on Beyonce, especially with Renaissance coming. And they look back at the decade that was the film, the TV, and so much more. And you'll also get to catch up with some of the beloved actors and actresses and entertainers that made that decade what it is. You can find nineties now on all of the major podcast platforms. Also check out their website nineties now.com or follow them on social media at nineties. Now fm [00:21:44] Dan Runcie:  I hear you on that man. I hear you on that. What was it like for you during the pandemic? Obviously you couldn't tour. I know that gave you an opportunity to explore these other ventures, but what was it like for you.  [00:21:56] Rich Homie Quan: uh, the pandemic? Uh, what was it like for me? Uh, I would say that's definitely the moment I caught my groove back in the music. Opposed when I had took that long break. You know what? Being here. Cause I had just moved at that time. I had just moved and got me another house. I had bought my, uh, the house for something. And when I moved, I didn't set the studio equipment up for like close to a year. Just I, I'm syn like, come on man. And I think, I think the Migos might have had a just drop sign. I'm had my employees just dropped, but I'm hitting like in a competitor mode. Like I go drop me one two with just like, man, get up off your ass and go. Go get up off your ass and go do something. And since that day, man, I haven't started recording. I built, I built the studio back at the house. A new one, A dope one. That's where I'm at now. And get here, get it done. And it's just like my whole mindset changed like, nah man, we ain't giving up. We ain't quit right now. Nah, man, I'm from Atlanta. We, we don't throw in any white flash. You feel me? It's going hard. I think, um, it started with that then from dropping some music, uh, in Lincoln with Ben and them trusting my plan and wanting to have my back, you know?  [00:23:05] Dan Runcie: For sure. What has it been like for you with live music just coming back in general? Have you been going and doing as many shows as you were doing before the pandemic? [00:23:17] Rich Homie Quan: I would definitely say I'm doing more shows than I was doing before the pandemic, and that's probably because of the new music we've been dropping. But I've been trying to get like a little more social, social active on the social media a little bit too, man, that's, that's played a part and me just, you know, like I say, taking it a whole lot serious, more serious now realizing that the game don't need me, game doesn't change the players do. And realizing that I need the game, so let me act like I need this shit like you. Changing my mindset shit, man. That's,  [00:23:49] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And in other interviews too, you've talked about your place in Atlanta hip hop and your respect in Atlanta, hip hop ain’t you say you feel like you don't get the credit you deserve. [00:24:00] Rich Homie Quan: Nah, I don't, I don't, I don't get the credit. Uh, I don't, uh, like I say, I feel like the sound, like the Atlanta sound today. I feel like I should be one of those ones in that heavily influenced sound. You know what I'm saying? But I wasn't vocal about it then. So I don't respect them. But they know, like we know, like we know and they know, you know what I'm saying? Like you can't mention the Atlanta sound today without mentioning corn. Corn, period. Period. You know what I'm saying? That's why I'm, you know, top three and I'm not three. And that's, that's, that's what it's been. And I'm gonna show, I'm gonna show these people that I'm gonna show you. I'm gonna let the music show you. It ain't just me saying it. I know what I, I know what we've been working on. They gonna see what I'm top three. [00:24:44] Dan Runcie: And so top three are not three. Who? The other two? I don't know. That's what the people decide. I didn't know three because, like I, but cause it's really like a five in hour. Like I got like a. And the five will be, um, no order. Savage is up there and it's just for today. It's not all time. You know what I'm saying? Bro. You got Savage up there. You got Future Up, you got Thug up there, baby up there, and myself up there and I'm just, you know, I'm top three and three. That's for everybody else.  [00:24:47] Rich Homie Quan: I don't know. That's what the people to decide. I didn't know three because, like I, but cause it's really like a five in hour. Like I got like a. And the five will be, um, no order. Savage is up there and it's just for today. It's not all time. You know what I'm saying? Bro. You got Savage up there. You got Future Up, you got Thug up there, baby up there, and myself up there and I'm just, you know, I'm top three and three. That's for everybody else.  [00:25:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, I hear that. And I mean, just here are the names you think about, thinking about you and a thug. I mean, I feel like lifestyle is one of the most influential songs of the decade. [00:25:27] Rich Homie Quan: For sure,  for sure. Yeah, for sure. Or lifestyle and definitely that the uh, the rich game mix tape, the rich Oh yeah. Tape as well as the still going in. And I promise I never stopped going in that influenced the sound that influenced the sound man. Cause that's when the differences came. The some type of wave and, oh man, that room was crazy that that decade did. It definitely influenced the sound.You know what I'm saying? [00:25:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I mean, even just the way that you see that artists are trying to do multiple things on a track, whether they're trying to sing, they're trying to real like the, I feel like you dug a lot of you were doing that early. So you combine that. You combine with the frequency that people are released in music. We, a lot of these pop stars just, you know, try to do different things on the, at all. [00:26:23] Rich Homie Quan: You know what I'm saying? Like Yeah, I think, I think we showed it like they ain't gotta be a single, the hold the tone. And I think it more people just want to go try like that. Cause I know I can't sing, but I can hold a decent song where I can make you, I can, I can trick your mind. And I think a lot of people want to try that and that's why, that's why you hear it so much. It's an unorthodox sound. We ain't trying to sing, but it does sound, we try to hold a song and you hear that in 80% of the music you on the radio today. If you weren't hearing that then 10 years ago, that's all I’m saying. [00:27:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, you see where the trend is for sure. But yeah, I mean, For you. I do know that, you know, even though you had that moment, there was a period where you know, you weren't released in music and there was, I know that in past interviews you've talked about how it was a bit of a difficult time for you. What was it like for you to be able to come back from that? I know you talked a little bit about how the pandemic was an opportunity for you to reset things. What was it like for you to really be able to come out of that and then still be in the place that you, you are today?  [00:27:42] Rich Homie Quan: Oh, man. To come outta it, I think it was just like amazing. Took a whole lot of praying for one, stand down and like I said, man, not wanting to give up, man. You know what I'm saying? Knowing like, I think I, I started something beautiful and it's still so. So many pages I've yet to get to, and I know I'm capable of getting to, I get to scratch the surface and like me being such an asshole to myself, you know what I'm saying? Like on days I would just make up, I would wake up mad just for no reason and like the people around me didn't deserve it. You know what I'm saying? Like. I'm the leader and a lot of times like, man, I just know, like I couldn't, I couldn't continue to live like that and call myself a child of God, man. You feel me? So once I got that cloud, my head, man, it felt, it felt amazing, man. But I had to take it a day at a time like it. I wouldn't be talking the way I'm talking now if I didn't get filed over. Like it was some tough, tough, tough nights. Like I think, like I said, I went a year without getting in the. And I've always kept me a studio, like at my house, like a nice, yo, I didn't, I didn't listen to the radio three years, you know what I'm saying? But I'm still doing shows. Like I never stopped doing show, but my, my heart wasn't in my mind, was there, but my heart wasn't it. And I think like in this bitch heart gotta be in anything. And I like for my shit genuine and you know what I'm saying? My heart just wasn't in it. So sitting back in this house for that, Um, reminiscing on a lot of things, a lot of memories, those good ones. And waking up one day is like, well, this is how you gonna hear your story. And I myself telling myself like, you better than all these niggas. But in order to say that, you gotta go put in the work to be able to show, show that. And that's what it was, man. And I ain't got, I ain't got, I did in room since I do everything down here. I sleep down. You as you see, I'm getting my hair braided down here. We play the game down, the vibes down here, it your energy out. Don't even come down here. You know? And that's just what it been, man.  [00:29:58] Dan Runcie: And I've imagine that some of that exact competitive nature too, right? Yeah. You don't listen to the radio for three years. You're focused, you're locked in, but you're still performing. When you start listening to the radio again, I'm sure you're hearing what's popping off and you're like, no, I'm better than these. [00:30:13] Rich Homie Quan: Oh yeah. Like when I'm hearing, I'm like, oh, this what people going crazy about. Oh no. We got to, we got to go to work.To go to work. And it was like, and when I started going to work, like at first I didn't, I felt like, um, cause I, I was so used to doing songs fast, like going crazy. And when I got back in there, it wasn't like I just got back in there and was the, it was the corner I am today. Oh no, it took time. It might have took six months before I got back to playing my songs back in the car from my, for the people around me. You know what I'm saying? So still I had to gain my confidence back, man. I had to get it back man. But I got it. Oh, I got it. I got it. [00:30:50] Dan Runcie: And I know too for you, I feel like there's a few things, cuz obviously it's you as an artist, like we're talking about Wanda artist building that up. You've got the confidence and you got the swag back with that. But I know that you've talked a lot about how 10 years from now you want Wanda CEO to be doing more of the work and you don't necessarily wanna be making music as much. You talk to me about what you see that 10 years from now looking like. [00:31:14] Rich Homie Quan: Uh,  10 years from now is a long time and I try not to see that. Like, and when I said. Cause I try to make like real short term goals that are real possible. But I do know and I like 10 years from now, I'll be 43 and I probably said 12. Cause 45 sounds like a better number just to leave it alone. It um, I won't be focusing on Coin the artist, but as far as point the CEO coin, the CEO may start writing more. Cause I just love music that much, but I still can never not see myself created. So, uh, I've been even dipping into it now, like more writing. Writing more, but I would probably doing, writing more, focusing on, cause I been trying, I've been doing models moderat lately when they do the fashion show, I'm walking the runway. It's the first time I did that, I had just did the fashion week. So I'm already trying how that? [00:32:05] Dan Runcie: How did you like doing the runway for the fashion show? [00:32:07] Rich Homie Quan: Well, I haven't done that yet. I, I do that next week. But just the fashion snow itself, just going to fashion week in new. Aw man. Amazing man. Like, just being around people like, oh my, like, I was almost like, I didn't want my phone. I, but I was, man, that's the boy from my show out. You know what I'm saying? Just like seeing Cal coo, no, see, uh, you saying boat? Amy? What's her name? Amy W Winnie. Winnie Harlo. Yeah. Winnie Harlow. Man. Like just seeing her in person, just made and being. Front next to talking to court a like, dang. It just gets you in different room. I'm, and I'm saying like, I maybe could do this. I maybe we could do this for the next 20 years after rap. You know, I'm saying stuff like that. So it's just like, you know, other stuff. Even like being an author, I wanna come out with a memoir. I'm ready to write my book, you know what I'm saying? Cause I do want to get in movies and I, uh, wanna come out with a autobiography movie one day. So, not even me playing myself, but at least writing it. I'm trying to get in directing, trying to get in. I see 10 years from now I see myself, that guy, man.  [00:33:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Okay. I feel like we're gonna see you at the Met Gala next year or something. [00:33:15] Rich Homie Quan: For sure. For sure, for sure. I'm gonna be at, uh, try to be at a whole lot more of a man, a whole lot more and all this stuff that's clean. I just gotta let 'em know I do this shit too. [00:33:26] Dan Runcie: The memoirs are good. I mean, Gucci's was good. Ross's was good. I mean, there's so much, and I mean, you're obviously gonna be able to tell stuff that no one's stole before. You're gonna have the … [00:33:35] Rich Homie Quan: Yeah, and I got stories that, I got stories that I know like, I mean, I just don't give that, I think that would be dope into a book. Like, especially me being real, I think it'll be more raw. Cause I love to read, so I would definitely give more, more details on my book, you know what I mean? I would definitely, yeah, it get spicy, it get spicy. [00:33:55] Dan Runcie: Have you done as much on TikTok lately? Just, you know, whether you are the on camera, off camera and, and I'm have a lot of opinions about it. [00:34:03] Rich Homie Quan: Yeah. I'm, I'm still adjusting. I'm still adjusting. I'm still adjusting. So now a lot of my TikTok has been like, like stuck on the music, but I'm starting, I'm, I'm gonna start, I'm, I'm gonna get a little more personal show, show the fans a different side of me. Cause that's what I'm transitioning to now. Like I am a rapper and that's what fans love. I'm transitioning just to showing them a little bit of, a little bit more of my personal side and just decide deciding which side of my personal side and what I'm willing to reveal. No, that makes sense. Cause I want to be authentic. I don't just wanna get on there cause everybody's doing it. I wanna have something different to offer and that, you know, it's authentic. You're getting a real me. [00:34:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, like, I can't see you trying to do some like trick, like, you know what I mean? Like everyone trying to do these visual tricks. [00:34:48] Rich Homie Quan: Like no, never, never, never, never, never. That, that, that goes against my morals and ethics, you know what I'm saying? Like , you know what I mean? [00:34:57] Dan Runcie:  Yeah. No, for sure man. Well, no man, I'm excited for you, man. I feel like this is a good chapter. I feel like whether it's a pandemic or other things, like these triggers that happen in life, give us a good opportunity. Just pause, reset, and come back stronger. And I feel like you got the infrastructure there to keep moving, man. So proud of you. Excited for you for what's coming, but man, before we let you go, give us a heads up of what to look out for. What should we look out for the next couple months coming?  [00:35:25] Rich Homie Quan: Uh, next couple of months coming from me. We In November. Yeah. Oh shit. Some weeks after this, man, you can look for us to be reloading the family in Moula. You know what I'm saying? We're not gonna call it a deluxe, we're just gonna reload it. Cause I feel like the reloaded is a deluxe anyway. And I think like that's a trend I started years ago. So they, they, they say deluxe, but we reloading it with seven new songs. [00:35:51] Dan Runcie:  Wait, wait. So, so you started the deluxe.  [00:35:54] Rich Homie Quan: Yes. I'm not gonna say that, but it was called Reload. No, God, I'm not gonna say I started, but I think I did. You know what I'm saying? I think, I think men, I think Men Thug, what's the first artist doing? You know what I'm saying? The Duo Mix tape that they name the album. You know what I'm saying? So it's like a, you know what I'm saying? You know, history beats yourself.  [00:36:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So dope man. We'll look out for that and we'll look out for the rest of this stuff coming from you. [00:36:23] Rich Homie Quan: And more videos. Yeah, more, more videos in your face. A whole lot more. Yeah, man. More RQ, the brand, more RQ Time, Venice and more of us going up putting it in they face. Man. I'm on the way. We're here now. We're here now.  [00:36:39] Dan Runcie: Love it man. I love it. Quan, it's been a pleasure, man. Thanks for joining.  [00:36:44] Rich Homie Quan: Thank you, man. Rich Homie Quan was one of the defining rappers of the music era that preceded the industry’s shift to streaming. He — along with the likes of Future and Young Thug — made “mumble rap” a hot commodity in the mid-2010s. But while Future and Thugger continued their careers, Quan took a hiatus from the game, until now.


Quan dropped his first project, “Family & Mula”, in almost three years back in October. During the long layoff, Quan admits he lost both his confidence and heart for rapping. He refused to quit on himself during the down period, which only spurred him artistically and business-wise. 


That’s because the eight-track EP is also the first under his independently-owned Rich Homie Entertainment label. Now ten years into his career — most of which spent under a label — Quan felt now was the time to go independent. Not only for the creative freedom, but also for the CEO role that comes with it. 


I caught up with Quan to reflect on his 10-year music career up to this point and how he envisions the next ten playing out as an independent artist and a CEO. Here’s everything we covered:


[2:41] Reflecting on the loss of Takeoff

[4:07] What Quan misses about his “come up” years

[5:16] Why Quan went independent at this stage of his career 

[5:40] Taking on a CEO role

[7:57] Why Quan doesn’t like his hit record “Flex”

[10:33] New partnership with Troy Carter and Suzy Ryoo's Venice 

[14:44] Differences between Quan the CEO and Quan the artist 

[15:54] Rising as an artist before the streaming era took off

[17:25] Distinctions between album, EP, and mixtape 

[20:16] Quan’s non-music business pursuits 

[21:56] How pandemic re-motivated Quan to do music

[24:00] Quan wants more credit for influencing Atlanta sound

[31:14] Quan’s 10-year vision for himself 

[35:54] Did Quan start “deluxe” project drops?



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Rich Homie Quan, @RichHomieQuan

 

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TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Rich Homie Quan: I was kind of afraid of my creativity on that song. You know what I'm saying? If that makes any sense. Like, I don't know. Cause I make a lot of music, man, and it's a lot of songs that's probably similar. That's like that. That will never come out only because of my mind. But that's why lately I've been letting the team I create, decide, you know? Pick which ones they feel like that needs to be heard. You know what I'm saying? So that's why I've grown as an artist slash CEO.

[00:00:31] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Dan Ruey. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. 

[00:00:51] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is the one, the only Rich Homie Quan. R.H.Q came through to talk about his partnership with Venice and how this is a new start for him as an artist. He's independent now. He's seen what it's like on the label side. He's seen what works, and what doesn't work. But this is his opportunity to have more creative control. To see more of the money that comes in and out, and ultimately have more of a say on what makes the most sense for building his career and moving. So he talks about the benefits of the Venice partnership. He also talks about some of the other things that he's working on as well. We talked about his real estate game and how he made over a million dollars this past year from his real estate business. We also talked about where he sees himself in Atlanta's influence. He says he's top three and not three from the city. So you have to listen to hear the name chops that he has in here. Some of the other multimedia projects and a whole lot. Quan also recorded this one while he was getting his hair braided, so I gotta give him credit for multitasking. Shout out to Quan. Hope you enjoy this episode. All right. Today we got the one and only Rich Homie Quan with us. Man, before we get started with any of this stuff, let's just do a quick check, man. How are you? How are you living? How are things right now?

[00:02:03] Rich Homie Quan: Oh man, I'm good man. Mentally, better than ever. I'm just in a good space right now, man. I love the space I'm in, probably better than ever, man. I'm good, man. Yeah. How about you, man? How are you, you know what I'm saying? Mentally, you know what I'm saying? You know, spiritually how you feeling? 

[00:02:021] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I mean, I'm good. I mean, things have been good getting ready for the holidays and everything right now, but, I feel like it's kind of been a tough week, I'm not gonna lie. Thinking about take off and just thinking about artists passing so young. I mean, I mean, I know that this isn't anything new necessarily, but it just feels like it's been so much recently, so I've been thinking a lot about that.

[00:02:41] Rich Homie Quan: That part, you know, like I've been trying to get it out my mind, man. Cause like me and Takeoff wasn't close, but I have worked with him, you know what I'm saying? On numerous occasions, on numerous occasions. And with him being from Atlanta, man, it just hit, that one hit a whole lot different, man. That one touched me, man. That one hurt me, man. That hurt a lot of us, man. You know what I'm saying? Like I think I was walking say the best man, like hip hop took big ill man that that was a humongous ill man.

Humongous.

[00:03:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And there were so many of you that came up right around the same time. I feel like you came out and then they had the moment, like there were so many of y'all from Atlanta that rose up.

[00:03:22] Rich Homie Quan: Yes. Yeah. So that's why it's like, I, I kind of felt a different, like I saw, I saw before, um, they were with QC all us sitting on Gucci couch before we, before we got our first million, when we still were grinding and grind mode. So like, just to see that and know like, man, that could have been me, that could have been any of us. You know what I'm saying? Like, so that, that one definitely like hit me. Alright man, real hard.

[00:03:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. And I mean, you were just talking about it, you going back to being I QCs couch. I was just looking back at the double like cell cover, the freshman class for you on the cover. And man, it was such a moment. I mean, when you think back to that moment when everything was rising up, like what do you think on the most, what memories stick out to you the most about that time?

[00:04:07] Rich Homie Quan:  Uh, what memories stick out about the most? I would just say more so recording in the music, being so. Because at that time we didn't have all those eyes on us. So then, you know, like we could say whatever and when, and no one, you know, we can say how we really felt. You know what I'm saying? Because you was in that grind and it just, you know, once you get to a certain level and certain things, you can't say no. Cause you know what I'm saying? You got certain people looking at you and that dissecting your words every, every type of way. So I would just say, man, just a recording process, man. Then man, the way we record the way, it'll be all five of us in the booth at one. Or maybe you should say it this way or this way. And it was just a know, just a vibe man. And the learning experience, man. Cause we were so young at that time, like we didn't know we'll be here 10 years later, you feel me? So yeah, that's the beauty of it all. 

[00:04:56] Dan Runcie: And I mean, for you 10 years later, you've done a few interview recently. You talked about why you wanna be independent and what this next chapter looks like for you? What has been the big thing that's made you wanna have this next chapter? Be independent, be on your own terms as opposed to how the last decade was up to this point?

[00:05:16] Rich Homie Quan: Would say the most important part about being independent and what I wanted about it, what I wanted, uh, from it more so, it was just the fact that I had tried everything else. I had tried being with the other independent labels and I just thought it was my turn. I had saw every side of the sword, but just this side of the sword and it's just been so much more fun.Just when I say fun, it's more so from a business side. And I say that because at first I was such an artist mode. It was hard for me to be a CEO, but to continue to say I'm a CEO when I'm not doing none of the CEO shit. And I say that to say like, I'm not in tune with the conversations, or I'm not on every phone call. I'm not CC'd in those emails and those important emails. So now man, with me being a ceo, I'm more in tune. You know what I'm saying? I'm knowing, I'm knowing what the budget is for this. Uh, just understanding the budget, know what I mean? Understanding, so, you know, just taking this a whole lot more serious, being independent, knowing now, like it's really the, that's why I'm probably in this such great space because I know the opportunity I have, I know what I've done.

[00:06:27] Dan Runcie:  You talked about seeing the money and just being able to see what the costs are looking like, what the money's coming in. What was the biggest surprise there? Cause I know you didn't see a lot of that as the artist, but now that you're being CC'd on those emails, now that you're seeing those things, did anything stick out to you?

[00:06:40] Rich Homie Quan: The most? To me, uh, it was just more so of money I would see go without videos and stuff like that, and I would have no knowledge on my input when it's my money that's paying for these. That made me just put my, you know, like, damn, I would've rather shot the video with so and so and so, and maybe, you know, it could have been better for a cheaper number than a number of, uh, someone who's big, big, like, you know what I'm saying? So it just started making me like, way more in tune man, just way more in tune and like, how can I call my c myself a CEO if I'm, if I don't have those last say sos on, you know what I'm saying? Who, who, who I think should shoot the video. So it's like, yeah, I just want to stay in tune, man. And stay at it. Stay at it. Yeah. All the way around the boy, man. Like I'm getting older now and I still got people I look up to and I'm looking at some of the transitions they had to make. You know, sometimes you gotta realize everybody can't go with you. Right. And that's part of better. 

[00:07:40] Dan Runcie: And I feel like you're talking a lot about something I've heard you talk about at other interviews too. Creative control, being able to have more say so over the process. And I was surprised it stuck out like a song like Flex, which was a hit that people liked. Like you really weren't feeling that song as much. 

[00:07:57] Rich Homie Quan: Oh, oh. Like one of mine like, because I felt like at the time Flitch came out, I was such, I was more so of, I don't wanna just say a street rapper, but those were my fans. My fans were like the people who came up from similar situations to me. And I just didn't want my fans to ever think like I was crossing over or making crossover music. And, cause that was one of them songs. Like it wasn't a, I was known for making pain music, you know what I'm saying? So to say. And uh, that was one of, one of those still good different records, but it made, it was, it was a gift and a curse to me cause it made me realize. It's not what I like, it's what people want, and it's all about the fans. And that was my biggest song, like solo to this day. So it's just, it, it just made me realize like co you just, just focus on making the music and let the people decide for you, which is which man, you know what I'm saying? But it turned into a good situation, man. To this day, I still patrol. I still perform Flex Man, you know, so still getting paid off. So, you know, that's. That's one of the perks, man. You know what I'm saying? Trust your team. Definitely trust. Trust your team. The ones that love you, who love you, that you keep around.

[00:09:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I feel like that's a balance I hear from even the folks that have been doing this in entertainment for years. I feel like Denzel was someone who had said, he's making all these equalizer movies, right? But he's like, those movies pay the bills so that I can do these August Wilson plays and all of these things that really mean something to him. So I feel like Flex might be that for you, that gives you the ability to do the stuff you really wanna put out so….


 [00:09:38] Rich Homie Quan: And that's what it was like. I was kind of afraid of my creativity on that song. You know what I'm saying? If that make any sense. Like, I don't know. Cause I make a lot of music, man, and it's a lot of songs that's probably similar. That's like that, that will never come out only because of my mind. But that's why lately I've been letting the team, I create, let the team decide, you know? Pick which ones they feel like that needs to be heard. You know what I'm saying? So that's why I've grown that as, as an artist slash ceo, know what I'm saying, getting outta the artist mode and going step back. I trust these guys enough. You know what I'm saying? Not, they're not gonna make me look bad, let alone make themselves look bad cause they're part of this. This represents them as well. 

[00:10:15] Dan Runcie: Definitely, definitely. And if we fast forward a few years, here you are now you have R.H.Q Entertainment, you recently have the joint venture launch with Venice. Shout out, uh, Troy and Susie, the folks over there. Talk to me about this. What's the vision for that joint venture? Where are things going? 

[00:10:33] Rich Homie Quan: Oh man, where are things going? I think, uh, the world is starting to see, and we haven't even got started yet. That's the crazy part. Like we haven't even got started yet, but like, you know, it was one of those situations. The distribution was nothing I hadn't had. You know what I'm saying? So like I said, it's all about me, like always throwing new things and never want, try nothing twice. You know what I'm saying? Like I still don't know like what my future holds, but I just know like, man, Venice has just been such a tremendous help to the RQ brand and for what I got going on, it just fit perfectly. And it wasn't one of those, or we just jumped straight into it. I think like a big shout outta Red man. Cause red, like he did not give up man. And it might have took us six months to get everything just done the right way where everybody's comfortable. And most importantly, everybody wins, man. You know what I'm saying? Big shout out Detroit. I was just with him last night. He flew down here, man. It was tremendous. Every time I'm, I'm big on energy and energy last night. Created a crazy vibe, man. You know what I'm saying? At the vintage man, Susie, everybody, the whole team Alyssa. I don't wanna eat nobody out, but man, uh, I love it, bro. I love it man. And it was the best situation for me. And like I always like to say, I don't wanna encourage no younger artists or anybody upcoming who wants to do music. I'm not saying independence may not be for you because at the same time, music takes money and sometimes a label situation may be the best for you. It just wasn't the best for me anymore. Cause it's something I. You know what I'm saying? And with me being in the game 10 years, like kind of saw it all. And now I know what's best for me, man. The creative control, you know what I'm saying? And like, and I still have a partner, you know, I still have a partner, man, but now man, I'm, I'm really boss ceo and I'm, I'm loving it.

[00:12:24] Dan Runcie: So now that you do have a partner, but like you said, they're not a record label, it's more on the distribution side. What are the things that they are gonna be doing for you and like what does that partnership look like in terms of your role, in terms of Venice's role? 

[00:12:37] Rich Homie Quan:  Okay. You got a partnership, man. It's more so of a, uh, like a lot of things I didn't know, like on the technology side of things and stuff that's showing me, man, you know what I'm saying? Even with more opportunities outside of. You know, I'm, I think that's the biggest thing now, man. You know, opportunities outside of meals, you know what I'm saying? Movie ventures and stuff like that that I had no idea that I thought I could tap into, but you know what I'm saying? It's showing me, man, it's beautiful man. It's beautiful man. Feel top priority. It feels better. You know what I'm saying? Like I've been in label situations. The team we got over there, they're working hard on 80% of these labels I saw, and I.So that, that's what I love and that's what it's been, that being able to show me, man, that like they ain't playing, they ain't, they ain't playing. You know what I'm saying?

[00:13:26] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah. Cause, cause I mean, Troy gets it and I know just seeing the way that they've structured things, a lot of it is thinking about how to think beyond streaming too.Right? Like what does web three look like? What do NFTs look like? 

[00:13:39] Rich Homie Quan: Exactly. So that's what I'm saying. It's stuff that I had no knowledge of. Of course I hear it, but now I. A person who can show it. And that's what I told him last night. Like, man, it's different when you, everybody that's talking, but you, you've shown and prove everything you said, man. So, and that's a big, and with me being able to have a direct line to him to be able to talk to him, you know, like, and no showing on the labs.

[00:14:29] Dan Runcie: No dope. No, that's for sure, man. So yeah, it's been good to hear you just talk about the ownership and just what it means to be a ceo. And I know it's two different hats you gotta wear. Do you feel like Quan the CEO is any different from Quan the artist? 

[00:14:44] Rich Homie Quan: I would definitely say according to CEO is a whole lot different from the, uh, from the artist. And that's only because as an artist, I be in my mind a lot. You know what I'm saying? I be in my mind a whole lot. But as a CEO, I get it. Where you gotta get out your mind. It, it ain't about your mind or your feelings, man. It's business. You know what I'm saying? It's, it's business and, and that's why I have to separate. It's what they're totally. And is only corn as an artist with the microphone, whatever. When I'm not the microphone, it's about the family and it's about the beast. You know what I'm saying? In that order. In that order, and God, of course, first with him being first, you know what I'm saying? I'm backing up. You know the son. 

[00:15:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. And thinking back just about your career, I feel like we're just talking at the beginning of the conversation, right? Whether it's you, Migos, Rockos, a few of you that came up in this same timeframe, but I feel like y'all were a little bit early then when streaming really took off. And I often wonder like, man, like they obviously all had successful careers, but would things look any different, and maybe it was like two or three years later when you saw how streaming was streaming really copied what y'all were doing.

[00:15:54] Rich Homie Quan: I remember, yes. I remember that. Like when the first, like my biggest records, like those were so hard copies, you know what I'm saying? It's been like, it wasn't no streaming, it was just like, but a lot of my packs packs. You know what I'm saying? Me and record sold like no, like, you know, physically. So it is different. Like there was still city players then and stuff, you know what I'm saying? So it was, when they first started talking streaming, I was like, I can get paid out that, nah man put, I wanna sell money just now. Like you said. I really feel like they got something from the numbers we were doing and, and turned it. All the way. So I love it, man. And that's why this run here is more important. Cause I'm gonna get me some of that. No money, I promise you that.

[00:16:37] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah. A whole lot. Yeah. The thing. Yeah, the thing. I feel like that you all. A lot was just dropping in the frequency of when the mix tapes came out. Right. It was like you didn't let up.

[00:16:49] Rich Homie Quan: Like all Now and now Mix Tapes are album, they're no more mix tapes, you know what I'm saying? Like I think I saw something from He is gonna bring mix tapes back and it's like even now Mix tapes are album, then there was still mix tapes. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like come on. But yeah, it's ok. I got something.

 [00:17:07] Dan Runcie: I know, man. I know. So, yeah. So you had the recent release that came out. It was an EP For you though, how do you distinguish or make a distinction between EP versus albums versus Mix tapes now? Just given that everyone is putting out music and however they wanna label it, maybe. 

[00:17:25] Rich Homie Quan: Yeah. Yeah. To me, I differentiate 'em only because man, like, so what? I just put out the little EP man or mix tape. I feel like EP mixtape, same. Mix tape. I'm doing, I'm, uh, I would say I'm rushing the music, uh, album. I'm gonna take a little more time. You know what I'm saying? It's gonna be a little more thought out. It's gonna be, cause I still look up to my favorite albums coming from your, coming from your tis first album. You know what I'm saying? I'm looking at the structure of those and the instruction of those can't be within a month, two month process. That process may take a. You know what I'm saying? Because you know, I need the content to rap about, but that's the only way I differentiate towards the time I put out a man. You know what I'm saying? Time. 

[00:18:09] Dan Runcie:  Yeah, that makes sense. And I feel like for the most part, you can hear that from a lot of artists. Once in a while you'll hear a mixed tape that people feel like it's just as goods an album, but for the most part, The more effort that you hear or you hear to the production quality, you hear it in the bars and yeah.

[00:18:25] Rich Homie Quan: And they last longer.

You know that last longer. That's why I feel like a lot of the music is here, you know, today and gone in two weeks because it's so much similarities and that's why I've been trying to stay creative with the process. Stay corn, don't change my style, but I can't evolve in my sound. And when I say what I mean, it's like, you know, I don't see the same stuff I used to see. Now I'm rapping about the things I'm seeing now. Cause I'm old. I'm trying to put my peers and the, uh, the younger generation on real estate, man, that's probably less jewelry. Let's be, you know what I'm saying, little less flashy and get the things that really matter. You know what I mean? We, we screen the block, let's go buy a couple of properties on the block. So now, now we have a reason to, you know what I'm saying? Stuff of that nature, man, you know, and me just, you know, respecting my position and, you know, playing it.

[00:19:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah. You been getting more real. 

[00:19:16] Rich Homie Quan: Oh man. A whole lot. Whole lot. And I think last year, you know what I'm saying, a million plus on real estate, you know what I'm saying? And not a music checking ball, you feel me? Just last year. So I definitely getting into a whole lot more, man.

[00:19:31] Dan Runcie: Nice. Was that a rental property or a sale property to be here? 

[00:19:37] Rich Homie Quan: Uh, rental. A couple of flips and me selling my first. Nice. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it's like, yeah, I did a million plus in real estate. No rap, no rap cap. And is this mostly in Georgia or is it El you got,  uh, not only in Georgia, you know, like I'm born and raised here, now I'm getting on. Now I have, I'm getting to the level I'm going out, you know, in different states and, you know what I'm saying, going to buy, you know, smaller, smaller stuff and just, uh, revamping them, doing resell. I'm doing a clip flipping and stuff like that, man. 

[00:20:08] Dan Runcie: That's what's up man. That's what's up. Appreciate that, man. Yeah. Are there any other businesses that you've been getting involved with outside of music? Uhuh, you? 

[00:20:16] Rich Homie Quan: Yes, sir. Uh, also with the 18 wheelers, got a couple of 18 wheelers, you know what I'm saying? We got box trucks, you know what I'm saying? A couple of car lots and stuff like that. Car mechanics, some stuff like that. It's every type of way to keep it. Keep it rolling man. Keep it moving, man. You know what I'm saying? The pandemic opened my eyes up a whole. And I really had to take advantage of that time opposed just sitting in the house making babies.

[00:20:42] (Mid Ad) Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to tell you about a podcast I am sure you'll love. It's called nineties Now, A show all about the music, movies, tv, pop culture, and more from the nineties with a twist of what's happening. It's hosted by two radio vets, Kelly Alexander and Sharon Highland, along with their millennial producer Alex Brisson. The three of them navigate all that is and was the nineties, and you'll hear a wide range of nineties music. They had a really interesting episode about Diddy and Bad Boy and him starting a new record label. They had another breakdown on Beyonce, especially with Renaissance coming. And they look back at the decade that was the film, the TV, and so much more. And you'll also get to catch up with some of the beloved actors and actresses and entertainers that made that decade what it is. You can find nineties now on all of the major podcast platforms. Also check out their website nineties now.com or follow them on social media at nineties. Now fm

[00:21:44] Dan Runcie:  I hear you on that man. I hear you on that. What was it like for you during the pandemic? Obviously you couldn't tour. I know that gave you an opportunity to explore these other ventures, but what was it like for you. 

[00:21:56] Rich Homie Quan: uh, the pandemic? Uh, what was it like for me? Uh, I would say that's definitely the moment I caught my groove back in the music. Opposed when I had took that long break. You know what? Being here. Cause I had just moved at that time. I had just moved and got me another house. I had bought my, uh, the house for something. And when I moved, I didn't set the studio equipment up for like close to a year. Just I, I'm syn like, come on man. And I think, I think the Migos might have had a just drop sign. I'm had my employees just dropped, but I'm hitting like in a competitor mode. Like I go drop me one two with just like, man, get up off your ass and go. Go get up off your ass and go do something. And since that day, man, I haven't started recording. I built, I built the studio back at the house. A new one, A dope one. That's where I'm at now. And get here, get it done. And it's just like my whole mindset changed like, nah man, we ain't giving up. We ain't quit right now. Nah, man, I'm from Atlanta. We, we don't throw in any white flash. You feel me? It's going hard. I think, um, it started with that then from dropping some music, uh, in Lincoln with Ben and them trusting my plan and wanting to have my back, you know? 

[00:23:05] Dan Runcie: For sure. What has it been like for you with live music just coming back in general? Have you been going and doing as many shows as you were doing before the pandemic?

[00:23:17] Rich Homie Quan: I would definitely say I'm doing more shows than I was doing before the pandemic, and that's probably because of the new music we've been dropping. But I've been trying to get like a little more social, social active on the social media a little bit too, man, that's, that's played a part and me just, you know, like I say, taking it a whole lot serious, more serious now realizing that the game don't need me, game doesn't change the players do. And realizing that I need the game, so let me act like I need this shit like you. Changing my mindset shit, man. That's, 

[00:23:49] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And in other interviews too, you've talked about your place in Atlanta hip hop and your respect in Atlanta, hip hop ain’t you say you feel like you don't get the credit you deserve.

[00:24:00] Rich Homie Quan: Nah, I don't, I don't, I don't get the credit. Uh, I don't, uh, like I say, I feel like the sound, like the Atlanta sound today. I feel like I should be one of those ones in that heavily influenced sound. You know what I'm saying? But I wasn't vocal about it then. So I don't respect them. But they know, like we know, like we know and they know, you know what I'm saying? Like you can't mention the Atlanta sound today without mentioning corn. Corn, period. Period. You know what I'm saying? That's why I'm, you know, top three and I'm not three. And that's, that's, that's what it's been. And I'm gonna show, I'm gonna show these people that I'm gonna show you. I'm gonna let the music show you. It ain't just me saying it. I know what I, I know what we've been working on. They gonna see what I'm top three.

[00:24:44] Dan Runcie: And so top three are not three. Who? The other two? I don't know. That's what the people decide. I didn't know three because, like I, but cause it's really like a five in hour. Like I got like a. And the five will be, um, no order. Savage is up there and it's just for today. It's not all time. You know what I'm saying? Bro. You got Savage up there. You got Future Up, you got Thug up there, baby up there, and myself up there and I'm just, you know, I'm top three and three. That's for everybody else. 



[00:24:47] Rich Homie Quan: I don't know. That's what the people to decide. I didn't know three because, like I, but cause it's really like a five in hour. Like I got like a. And the five will be, um, no order. Savage is up there and it's just for today. It's not all time. You know what I'm saying? Bro. You got Savage up there. You got Future Up, you got Thug up there, baby up there, and myself up there and I'm just, you know, I'm top three and three. That's for everybody else. 

[00:25:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, I hear that. And I mean, just here are the names you think about, thinking about you and a thug. I mean, I feel like lifestyle is one of the most influential songs of the decade.

[00:25:27] Rich Homie Quan: For sure,  for sure. Yeah, for sure. Or lifestyle and definitely that the uh, the rich game mix tape, the rich Oh yeah. Tape as well as the still going in. And I promise I never stopped going in that influenced the sound that influenced the sound man. Cause that's when the differences came. The some type of wave and, oh man, that room was crazy that that decade did. It definitely influenced the sound.You know what I'm saying?

[00:25:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I mean, even just the way that you see that artists are trying to do multiple things on a track, whether they're trying to sing, they're trying to real like the, I feel like you dug a lot of you were doing that early. So you combine that. You combine with the frequency that people are released in music. We, a lot of these pop stars just, you know, try to do different things on the, at all.

[00:26:23] Rich Homie Quan: You know what I'm saying? Like Yeah, I think, I think we showed it like they ain't gotta be a single, the hold the tone. And I think it more people just want to go try like that. Cause I know I can't sing, but I can hold a decent song where I can make you, I can, I can trick your mind. And I think a lot of people want to try that and that's why, that's why you hear it so much. It's an unorthodox sound. We ain't trying to sing, but it does sound, we try to hold a song and you hear that in 80% of the music you on the radio today. If you weren't hearing that then 10 years ago, that's all I’m saying.

[00:27:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, you see where the trend is for sure. But yeah, I mean, For you. I do know that, you know, even though you had that moment, there was a period where you know, you weren't released in music and there was, I know that in past interviews you've talked about how it was a bit of a difficult time for you. What was it like for you to be able to come back from that? I know you talked a little bit about how the pandemic was an opportunity for you to reset things. What was it like for you to really be able to come out of that and then still be in the place that you, you are today? 

[00:27:42] Rich Homie Quan: Oh, man. To come outta it, I think it was just like amazing. Took a whole lot of praying for one, stand down and like I said, man, not wanting to give up, man. You know what I'm saying? Knowing like, I think I, I started something beautiful and it's still so. So many pages I've yet to get to, and I know I'm capable of getting to, I get to scratch the surface and like me being such an asshole to myself, you know what I'm saying? Like on days I would just make up, I would wake up mad just for no reason and like the people around me didn't deserve it. You know what I'm saying? Like. I'm the leader and a lot of times like, man, I just know, like I couldn't, I couldn't continue to live like that and call myself a child of God, man. You feel me? So once I got that cloud, my head, man, it felt, it felt amazing, man. But I had to take it a day at a time like it. I wouldn't be talking the way I'm talking now if I didn't get filed over. Like it was some tough, tough, tough nights. Like I think, like I said, I went a year without getting in the. And I've always kept me a studio, like at my house, like a nice, yo, I didn't, I didn't listen to the radio three years, you know what I'm saying? But I'm still doing shows. Like I never stopped doing show, but my, my heart wasn't in my mind, was there, but my heart wasn't it. And I think like in this bitch heart gotta be in anything. And I like for my shit genuine and you know what I'm saying? My heart just wasn't in it. So sitting back in this house for that, Um, reminiscing on a lot of things, a lot of memories, those good ones. And waking up one day is like, well, this is how you gonna hear your story. And I myself telling myself like, you better than all these niggas. But in order to say that, you gotta go put in the work to be able to show, show that. And that's what it was, man. And I ain't got, I ain't got, I did in room since I do everything down here. I sleep down. You as you see, I'm getting my hair braided down here. We play the game down, the vibes down here, it your energy out. Don't even come down here. You know? And that's just what it been, man. 

[00:29:58] Dan Runcie: And I've imagine that some of that exact competitive nature too, right? Yeah. You don't listen to the radio for three years. You're focused, you're locked in, but you're still performing. When you start listening to the radio again, I'm sure you're hearing what's popping off and you're like, no, I'm better than these.

[00:30:13] Rich Homie Quan: Oh yeah. Like when I'm hearing, I'm like, oh, this what people going crazy about. Oh no. We got to, we got to go to work.To go to work. And it was like, and when I started going to work, like at first I didn't, I felt like, um, cause I, I was so used to doing songs fast, like going crazy. And when I got back in there, it wasn't like I just got back in there and was the, it was the corner I am today. Oh no, it took time. It might have took six months before I got back to playing my songs back in the car from my, for the people around me. You know what I'm saying? So still I had to gain my confidence back, man. I had to get it back man. But I got it. Oh, I got it. I got it.

[00:30:50] Dan Runcie: And I know too for you, I feel like there's a few things, cuz obviously it's you as an artist, like we're talking about Wanda artist building that up. You've got the confidence and you got the swag back with that. But I know that you've talked a lot about how 10 years from now you want Wanda CEO to be doing more of the work and you don't necessarily wanna be making music as much. You talk to me about what you see that 10 years from now looking like.

[00:31:14] Rich Homie Quan: Uh,  10 years from now is a long time and I try not to see that. Like, and when I said. Cause I try to make like real short term goals that are real possible. But I do know and I like 10 years from now, I'll be 43 and I probably said 12. Cause 45 sounds like a better number just to leave it alone. It um, I won't be focusing on Coin the artist, but as far as point the CEO coin, the CEO may start writing more. Cause I just love music that much, but I still can never not see myself created. So, uh, I've been even dipping into it now, like more writing. Writing more, but I would probably doing, writing more, focusing on, cause I been trying, I've been doing models moderat lately when they do the fashion show, I'm walking the runway. It's the first time I did that, I had just did the fashion week. So I'm already trying how that?

[00:32:05] Dan Runcie: How did you like doing the runway for the fashion show?

[00:32:07] Rich Homie Quan: Well, I haven't done that yet. I, I do that next week. But just the fashion snow itself, just going to fashion week in new. Aw man. Amazing man. Like, just being around people like, oh my, like, I was almost like, I didn't want my phone. I, but I was, man, that's the boy from my show out. You know what I'm saying? Just like seeing Cal coo, no, see, uh, you saying boat? Amy? What's her name? Amy W Winnie. Winnie Harlo. Yeah. Winnie Harlow. Man. Like just seeing her in person, just made and being. Front next to talking to court a like, dang. It just gets you in different room. I'm, and I'm saying like, I maybe could do this. I maybe we could do this for the next 20 years after rap. You know, I'm saying stuff like that. So it's just like, you know, other stuff. Even like being an author, I wanna come out with a memoir. I'm ready to write my book, you know what I'm saying? Cause I do want to get in movies and I, uh, wanna come out with a autobiography movie one day. So, not even me playing myself, but at least writing it. I'm trying to get in directing, trying to get in. I see 10 years from now I see myself, that guy, man. 

[00:33:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Okay. I feel like we're gonna see you at the Met Gala next year or something.

[00:33:15] Rich Homie Quan: For sure. For sure, for sure. I'm gonna be at, uh, try to be at a whole lot more of a man, a whole lot more and all this stuff that's clean. I just gotta let 'em know I do this shit too.

[00:33:26] Dan Runcie: The memoirs are good. I mean, Gucci's was good. Ross's was good. I mean, there's so much, and I mean, you're obviously gonna be able to tell stuff that no one's stole before. You're gonna have the …

[00:33:35] Rich Homie Quan: Yeah, and I got stories that, I got stories that I know like, I mean, I just don't give that, I think that would be dope into a book. Like, especially me being real, I think it'll be more raw. Cause I love to read, so I would definitely give more, more details on my book, you know what I mean? I would definitely, yeah, it get spicy, it get spicy.

[00:33:55] Dan Runcie: Have you done as much on TikTok lately? Just, you know, whether you are the on camera, off camera and, and I'm have a lot of opinions about it.

[00:34:03] Rich Homie Quan: Yeah. I'm, I'm still adjusting. I'm still adjusting. I'm still adjusting. So now a lot of my TikTok has been like, like stuck on the music, but I'm starting, I'm, I'm gonna start, I'm, I'm gonna get a little more personal show, show the fans a different side of me. Cause that's what I'm transitioning to now. Like I am a rapper and that's what fans love. I'm transitioning just to showing them a little bit of, a little bit more of my personal side and just decide deciding which side of my personal side and what I'm willing to reveal. No, that makes sense. Cause I want to be authentic. I don't just wanna get on there cause everybody's doing it. I wanna have something different to offer and that, you know, it's authentic. You're getting a real me.

[00:34:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, like, I can't see you trying to do some like trick, like, you know what I mean? Like everyone trying to do these visual tricks.

[00:34:48] Rich Homie Quan: Like no, never, never, never, never, never. That, that, that goes against my morals and ethics, you know what I'm saying? Like , you know what I mean?

[00:34:57] Dan Runcie:  Yeah. No, for sure man. Well, no man, I'm excited for you, man. I feel like this is a good chapter. I feel like whether it's a pandemic or other things, like these triggers that happen in life, give us a good opportunity. Just pause, reset, and come back stronger. And I feel like you got the infrastructure there to keep moving, man. So proud of you. Excited for you for what's coming, but man, before we let you go, give us a heads up of what to look out for. What should we look out for the next couple months coming? 

[00:35:25] Rich Homie Quan: Uh, next couple of months coming from me. We In November. Yeah. Oh shit. Some weeks after this, man, you can look for us to be reloading the family in Moula. You know what I'm saying? We're not gonna call it a deluxe, we're just gonna reload it. Cause I feel like the reloaded is a deluxe anyway. And I think like that's a trend I started years ago. So they, they, they say deluxe, but we reloading it with seven new songs.

[00:35:51] Dan Runcie:  Wait, wait. So, so you started the deluxe. 

[00:35:54] Rich Homie Quan: Yes. I'm not gonna say that, but it was called Reload. No, God, I'm not gonna say I started, but I think I did. You know what I'm saying? I think, I think men, I think Men Thug, what's the first artist doing? You know what I'm saying? The Duo Mix tape that they name the album. You know what I'm saying? So it's like a, you know what I'm saying? You know, history beats yourself. 

[00:36:18] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So dope man. We'll look out for that and we'll look out for the rest of this stuff coming from you.

[00:36:23] Rich Homie Quan: And more videos. Yeah, more, more videos in your face. A whole lot more. Yeah, man. More RQ, the brand, more RQ Time, Venice and more of us going up putting it in they face. Man. I'm on the way. We're here now. We're here now. 

[00:36:39] Dan Runcie: Love it man. I love it. Quan, it's been a pleasure, man. Thanks for joining. 

[00:36:44] Rich Homie Quan: Thank you, man.

]]> 2275 no Investing in Web3 Music with Coopahtroopa https://www.trapital.com/podcast Cooper Turley, better known as Coopahtroopa, is betting big on ushering a new generation of music. In September, he announced a first-of-its-kind investment fund focused squarely on web3 music projects and artists themselves. Coop Records raised $10 million and Coopah will be the sole general partner.  He’s hesitant to call it just an investment fund though. That’s because Coop Records is also a record label and incubator. Coopah will invest directly into web3-native music artists in a “seed round” — turning emerging artists into venture-backed startups. Structuring an artist’s company is what Coopah sees as web3’s biggest opportunity: resetting ownership dynamics. NFTs are another vertical of the Coop Records fund, in addition to the seed-stage investing in both companies and artists.   Coopah joined me on the show to give us an in-depth look at how Coop Records is eying its investment opportunities. Here’s everything we covered: [0:00] How Coop Records started [2:06] Focusing on emerging artists, not established ones  [3:35] Coop Records’ investment thesis [7:24] Investing in artists during “seed round” [9:50] Structuring artists as a holdings company [11:40] What does an exit look like for artists investors? [15:00] Artists as CEOs [20:11] What makes a music NFT historical  [22:28] NFTs as a replacement for masters and publishing [27:18] Accredited investors vs. fan investors [29:30] Artist success stories with community building on web3 [31:40] Focusing on story when marketing NFTs [34:25] Optimizing for engagement not reach on social  [39:24] How tokenization changes the artist-fan relationship  [47:00] Predicting the year that music NFTs go mainstream  [48:25] Coop’s big question for web3 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Cooper Turley, @Cooopahtroopa   Download The Culture Report here: https://trapital.ck.page/a23b7a6a4a   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Cooper Turley: And I think that gets to this artist development piece more broadly is that you're trying to start the process much earlier, much earlier than I think a lot of the major record labels are starting now. Because I think they often wanna see artists having some proven. Track record before they're willing to sign them. [00:00:24] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Dan Ruey. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:49] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Cooper Turley, aka Coopa Troopa. He is the founder of Coop Records, which is a new venture fund, a 10 million fund that is focused on investing in the future of music, specifically in web three. He is someone that has made a name for himself as a thought leader in the space. He was involved with the Dow Friends with benefits and he's now started this fund to make economics better for artists and ultimately help them take more advantage of the opportunities that are around them. So we talked about a lot of it. We talked about how he views the space right now, why he started this fund, and what the fund's investing in. There are three main areas that we go into. We talk about investing in music startup. Investing in artist seed rounds and investing in NFTs themselves as an investible assets that him as a general partner and little Bited partners would wanna see returns from. So we talk about what the economics of that look like. I think that. Cooper stands out in a lot of ways because he has a much more nuanced understanding of how Web Three fits in with the broader ecosystem of what's happening right now in music, what some of the trade offs are with the financials, the relationship with fans, what services it offers versus the traditional record labels and more really insightful conversation, and I hope you enjoy it. Here’s our chat. [00:02:07] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're joined by Coopa Troopa who just launched Coup Records, which is his fund that is investing in the future of music and Web three specifically. And first off, congrats. I saw the announcement, it's really dope. So walk me through the process from thinking about you wanna start this fund to where you are now, today with it. [00:02:28] Cooper Turley: Absolutely. Well, first of all, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. I've been in music for the last 10 years in crypto for the last five, and so I've seen everything from ICOs to Defi, to Dows, and not most recently NFTs. You know, throughout that time I've been active across public markets as a trader, behind the scenes, as an angel investor, as a community builder, and as an operator. And when I started to think about how to connect all the pieces together, I've always been a fan of music. I felt like there was never really a clear vehicle to help elevate and amplify the space. And so I found coop records to be the best way to really just zoom in on this niche that I'm so excited about and figure out how to really help the founders, artists, and builders that are supporting this space everyday. [00:03:05] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. What were the conversations like getting buy-in from LPs? [00:03:10] Cooper Turley: Basically helping to explain what music NFTs are, why this is a vertical that you'd wanna invest in at this time and day? You know, historically I think that music has gotten a bit of a bad rep, cuz it's very antiquated in a lot of ways. You know, there's a lot of systems that are very complicated and hopefully we can unpack some of those on this episode. But, I think we through presents a new opportunity for artists to monetize in creative ways. You know, as someone who's been a curator my whole life, it's very easy for me to understand the value of investing in songs, artists, et cetera. But for someone who's not music savvy and not passionate about this sector, you know, the majority of those conversations are why would anyone wanna collect a song? Why would someone wanna invest in an artist? And trying to help people understand why there's an opportunity here that I think is. Influential and paramount for the next chapter of music. But once people get over that line, you know, I've kind of been able to build a brand for myself that I think speaks very clearly to why I'm so excited about music. And so for investors that are looking to get exposure to the space, coop records is a great way to get that exposure without them having to get as deep in the trenches as I am. [00:04:07] Dan Runcie: Right. And I gotta imagine that that probably took a few conversations just given things that I'm hearing too, from folks. People, they understand the promise and the opportunity of what NFTs and what web three offer, but there's. Hesitation, there's still perception about what's going on and some of the headlines that people see. How did you communicate or address some of those concerns while still sharing the value add for what you have?  [00:04:32] Cooper Turley: Yeah, I really focus on emerging artists. You know, I think that this is where the vast majority of value will accrue over the next couple years with Web three. And so when you think about investing in music, most people's mind goes to like, how do we get Drake to drop NFTs? I actually don't really focus on that at all. Instead, I think about how do we develop the next act that becomes Drake using Web three tools? And so for investors that are kind of hesitant about getting involved in the space, I point out early examples like X copier people, you know, crypto artists who really made a brand and a name for themselves on the back of selling their nfts. And obviously in the case of people, he had a major brand before, but it wasn't until the existence of NFTs and sort of these community based assets that they started to see monetization aspects with their fans and with their collectors. And so trying to highlight that there's an opportunity here to develop and support emerging artists new to Web three through music, I think it really made a clear case that. This isn't about trying to get your biggest celebrity to drop NFTs. I think that will happen at some point in time. But this is about investing in the infrastructure and the artists that are going to make this space very valuable over the next couple years. [00:05:31] Dan Runcie: And one of the things I like too about how your fund is structured or reminds me a bit of Matt Pinkus and how his music fund is structured. It's not just focused solely on startups that are trying to build the next tech platforms. You're also looking more broadly. The NFT space itself and what that opportunity looks like and it'd be great to break each of those down. So let's start first with the music tech companies, cuz I know that's 85% of your fund looking at preceded seed stage companies. What's your thesis for the type of company that is a coop records company that you're looking for?  [00:06:04] Cooper Turley:  I'm a really big fan of composability. So in Defi there's this concept of money Legos or protocols and platforms that could plug into one another. I believe the same thesis will play out with music, where we're gonna have music legos, where there's different marketplaces, service providers, tooling, infrastructure that can help sort of amplify what an artist can do with Web three. And so when I think about investing in a music tech company, I think about culturally, is this company aware and active within the pocket that I'm spending a lot of my time in? And then beyond being aware of sort of the artists, the songs, the type of platforms that are doing well in this space, do they have the open mindedness to wanna work in collaboration with those other platforms? So in accurate, we can kind of create this toolkit in this stack where if I am an artist who's new to web three, it's not about choosing Spotify versus Apple, it's actually about trying to develop a presence across many platforms. And hopefully those platforms. The life of the artist easier by making everything connect together with one another. [00:06:56] Dan Runcie: And I feel like this speaks to one of the broader themes that I know you've talked about before, is. It can't be this approach of web three versus web two. These things need to be collaborative. No more zero sum games. How can you think more broadly about the opportunity there? How do you view that more broadly, not just with the fun, but also likely how you're seeing the space with any artist that you're working with too? [00:07:21] Cooper Turley: I'm really laser focused on web three platforms because I think there's a lot more room for change within those platforms. You know, I have nothing against legacy platforms like Spotify have done fantastic work for artists and I think there will be at a time and day when they're able to enable music, NFTs to be purchased, collected, listened to within their platform. But the reality is these companies are so sophisticated that trying to move the needle is very complicated. And so for someone like. I'm running this fund as a solo gp. It's a relatively small fund, and so when I think about where I can have impact and leverage, it's typically working with very early stage founders. You know, I can get in the trenches and help to develop the product. Think about how we're onboarding artists, think about new marketing strategies. And so for me, I think right now it's about cementing the cultural relevance and value of this emerging wave of Web three music. And once that's been clear and established, we can take those same values, ideas, songs, artists, and help to bring those into the traditional industry in a more clear way. Because right now I think that a lot of the bigger players, let's call it major labels, et cetera, they recognize that there's value to be captured in Web three, but I don't think that they have the same level. Boots on the ground cultural awareness that maybe someone like, um, myself or some of my colleagues have. And so I think the challenge here is a, making it very clear what that culture is so you can start to translate it to larger players. And then once that they agree there is something of value there, you know, being able to act as a connector where you can say, Hey, maybe instead of going and doing a 500,000 or a million dollar drop for the biggest act on your roster, let's go ahead and find an emerging artist who's curious about the space and develop them with the course. Five or $10,000 drops and instead really build that community and that collector base in a very organic way. [00:08:56] Dan Runcie:  And I think that gets to this artist development piece more broadly is that you're trying to start the process much earlier, much earlier than I think a lot of the major record labels are starting now. Because I think they often wanna see artists having some proven. Track record before they're willing to sign them. And in some ways your approach isn't too much different. Maybe it's just a bit of a different stage because one of the other areas that you're investing in is artist seed rounds. And can you describe. What stage an artist would have to be in order to be at the seed round, and what types of things you're looking for there from an artist? [00:09:33] Cooper Turley: I think it's very similar to what I look for in companies. You know, has this artist been able to prove a little bit of traction? You know, have they demonstrated that they're culturally aware of where this industry is headed? You know, different things that I feel like are interesting to kind of describe. Cause it's not very concrete. Like you can't point to like a specific amount of sales or a specific amount of volume and say, okay, this artist is ready to be invested in. But it's really just a development process of like, is this person making web three a focal point in their career? I believe that that's something really important for me personally, cuz that's where I had the most leverage. But once they've demonstrated that they've been able to release on some of the bigger web through platforms, you know, once they've been able to collaborate and onboard other artists to the space, you know, you start to see that these people have like a little bit. Leverage was sort of their career. And at that point in time, instead of signing a traditional record deal, co records can really be the one to say like, Hey, let's go ahead and set up a company for you. Let's think about how we wanna do a cap table. Let's bring on some partners to give you the capital that you need to go and hire a team around you. So instead of selling your next three albums to a major label, you can instead fund this through accredited investors. And then over time think about the ways you wanna bring other partners into the fold, but not need to be so reliant on the capital to do that in the first place. [00:10:38] Dan Runcie: And with the artists specifically, cuz I know that you've started the fund. Maybe for the people listening, is there a particular artist that you have made a seed investment in just so people can get a good idea for, okay, this is someone that we invested in, this is where they're at in their career, and this is what the opportunity is  [00:10:56] Cooper Turley: Not publicly. I think by the time this comes out, we'll be right around there. You know, I can say that privately, behind the scenes we're working. The first round, you know, we've had some very serious progress on it. Investors are excited about it. We're going through the whole corporate structure, but for me, this is a very different lane because it's not as simple as just investing in the safe note of a precede company. You know, there's a lot more complexity around IP ownership, around revenue sharing around. Kind of how this artist thinks about their company and what kind of rights they're giving back to people. And so it's a slower process, but it's one that's currently in motion. I expect that we'll probably have the first one announced within the next one to two months, but I can definitely say there's one in motion that I'm really excited about. And I think, you know, by the end of this calendar year, we should have that one announced.  [00:11:37] Dan Runcie: I think part of this too is also the structure of things. You mentioned this earlier, and I think for a lot of artists it's probably. Not necessarily a new way to think about it, because I think in general, artists do think of themselves as having multiple revenue streams, but in order for this to work, in order for you to be able to make an investment, there needs to be some type of, whether it's a holding company or some type of structure in place so that you can make an investment that would touch all of these things. Can you talk a little bit about what that looks like on the artist side?  [00:12:05] Cooper Turley: Yeah, it's a fantastic question. I wanna start by saying, This is early days and so this is the first stab at it. I think that this model will evolve and change over time. The way we're thinking about it is there's one Hold Co, that represents the artist ownership across their various income streams, uh, that hold co owns subsidiary entities, one of them being a music entity, which owns the masters in publishing for that artist. One being a live entity, which owns touring and merchandising, and then one being a Web three entity, which owns NFTs and. And so all of that wraps up into the larger hold cow. But the reasons those subsidiaries exist is because we wanna limit liability to each of those different vertical. If there's an issue across web three, we don't want that to end up touching the masters. If an artist wants to go and sign a record deal, they shouldn't have to figure out what to do with their touring or what their NFTs to be able to enter into agreement with a different party. And so we've kind of split up the different verticals into buckets that make sense relative to the type of partners and the type of work that it is. But all of that rounds back up into this holding company and when it comes time to invest in the artist, quote unquote, that artist is selling anywhere from five to 10% of that hold cow to accredited investors so that they can have exposure and pass through to those underlying revenue streams. But there's not this sort of majority ownership, creative control, et cetera. It's really, here's capital and exchange for you to go do what you do best. In exchange for that, we have exposure to these underlying entities, which represent the artist brand in its entirety. [00:13:27] Dan Runcie: And for an investor like you, I think most people listening have a good idea of what an exit looks like for a startup, but what does an exit look like for you as an investor, for an artist, if you're going in at that seed round? [00:13:39] Cooper Turley: I think there's a couple ways it can pan out. You know, one I think would be IP acquisition. Let's say that there's a buyout of someone's masters or publishing, et cetera. You know, there's kind of larger capital inflections that can happen later down an artist's career. I'm more excited about this idea of taking artists public cuz it's something that hasn't really been done before, but I think will happen eventually. Where right now, if you're a fan, you can't really invest or bet on an artist. I think we're starting to see us at a very granular level with music NFTs, and it's something I would love to cover as the last bucket next, but to me, I think an exit here is helping an artist really take this company that we structure for themselves and explore what it means to go public. And so rather than only accredited investors being able to buy into that five or 10%, how do you invite fans to participate in that convers. I think that there's a lot of, uh, legal nuance there that needs to be figured out. And so I don't have that answer today, but I would say that more broadly, the two ways that this could happen is a, investors are seeing a return from the IP becoming more valuable, and they're being capital injected into the whole co. Or B, more optimistically the artist, quote unquote, going public by either, you know, listing on a traditional market or what I think is more likely is creating some form of a token, which represents exposure to this entity that's been set up to represent the artist brand in the first. [00:14:49] Dan Runcie: Got it. And then from a structure perspective, do you ever hear any type of pushback or comments from artists who feel like, oh, you're getting a slice of all these revenue deals. This feels similar to a 360 deal. Do you hear any of that at all? [00:15:04] Cooper Turley:  Yeah, I mean, it is a 360 deal, and I think that that's really important to like zoom in on, because 360 deals have gotten a really negative rep because of the percentage ownership that they typically encompass. So traditionally with 360 deals, it's anywhere from 50 to 80. When we talk about a 360 deal in this context, it's five or 10%. And if you start to look at the way that companies take on dilution and precede and seed stage rounds, it's kind of the same concept. You know, like that company is basically taking all of their revenue into this central entity and they're selling off dilution to investors. And so I think for artists, this is particularly scary because there's been such a history of people taking advantage of 360. But I don't think the structure with 360 deals incorrect. I just think the ownership targets that those deals are typically set at is what's really predatory. And so if we can zoom out a bit and instead say, Hey, five or 10% can give you a couple hundred grand, maybe a million dollars to go invest in a team around you, there's ways for that capital to be really value added where the dilution is actually necessary and valuable because it helps you advance your artist career in a way that you simply couldn't do without it. [00:16:04] Dan Runcie: I agree with that. I think that that's, Testament of some of the challenges with the broader major record label system as well, right? It's not that people shouldn't be willing to trade some level of ownership in exchange to get a boost from the company. It's how much ownership, it's what the terms that the actual economics look like, not the economic agreement itself. [00:16:28] Cooper Turley: Yeah, it's correct. And I think that it's something that is really important to help educate artists on. And this is the area that I'm actually most fascinated by is like artists really thinking about rights ownership, thinking about dilution, thinking about cap table management. And just with that in mind, I wanna highlight, it's a very specific type of artist that is willing to enter into this quote unquote, artists seed round. Because I think that most artists are not thinking about their brand as a ceo, but I think there are very selective artists who think about their entity as a business and for those specific artists being able to demonst. There's value in having employees. There's value in giving them long term options and equity, and having these ownership incentives be a little bit more aligned. I think traditionally music has existed in this weird ballpark where we've basically only ever sold masters in publishing. We haven't really experimented with equity or any of these other ownership vehicles that startups have been taking for the last couple generations, so I'm excited to explore it. You know, I by no means have all the answers, but I think. My time investing in precede and seed stage companies has given me a little bit of context on how things work behind the scenes, and I'm hoping that with a little time and effort, we can sort of mold those same practices and help apply them to artists more broadly. [00:17:34] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I have to imagine too, with artists as well, there's some artists that love the mentality of being the business person themself that can be the CEO and wear multiple hats. There's other artists who I. As much as they want the business to work for them, they just wanna focus on the art. So there's specific things that you're looking for to determine, okay, is this artist gonna be wanting to be the ceo? Or maybe making sure that they are partnered with someone that may wanna be in that role instead [00:18:05] Cooper Turley: Yeah, I mean, you just touched on it perfectly. I think that there's situations where artists have partners that are acting as their ceo, you know, and in many typical startups you have a ceo, a cto, a ceo, et cetera. Um, the artist isn't the only person that's responsible for their success. They're obviously the largest player in that. But it's less about, is this artist capable of being a ceo? It's more about is this artist capable of building a team around them that can. In tandem as a unit and as an organization. And if that artist is uncapable of operating as the CEO, because they're phenomenal at making music, it's very likely that there may be a manager, an agent, a business partner, et cetera, that could step into that role. And I think the biggest thing that I'm excited about is to realign incentives around the service providers around an artist. So whether that be a manager, an agent, a business manager, a lawyer, et cetera. Typically, all these actors are just operating on commission, you know, and they have five or 10 clients because there's no guarantee that they'll be with that artist in 10 years time. You know, these contracts aren't really a center aligned for those key players. But if we can instead start to create an instrument where a managers may be able to take a salary and then have equity that's vested over four years, I think there will be more situations where artists would be willing to enter into a full-time quote unquote agreement with their manager, because that a manager is now incentive aligned to actually spend all their time developing one. Instead of needing to commission off of five or 10 different artists just to be able to make a living. [00:19:24] Dan Runcie: It's a huge point because there's so many managers I've talked to that just talk about how thankless that job is, and that's purely just from how they're treated, not even getting to the economic aspect. You start thinking about the economics about how managers are treated and yeah, maybe you'll get 10 to 15 to 20%, but if that artist levels up and then they wanna level up their manager too, they can just be like, Hey, sorry, I wanna move on. And you, the person that brought them from zero to 40. Now you have nothing. Right? [00:19:54] Cooper Turley: Yeah. I mean, it happens time and time again from smaller artists to the biggest acts in the world. I mean, I don't have to name names here, but I think we all know examples of this happening time and time. And it's really just a game of incentive alignment. You know? And when I think about the term web three, to me that means ownership. And so for all of these different deals that I'm doing, it's about how do you create ownership incentives so that everyone who's contributing value to this entity is able to capture that in some way, shape, or form. And so I think it's a very difficult conversation to tell a manager, Hey, instead of taking a 15 or a 20% commission, you're gonna get a base salary and then have a couple equity percentage points that best over multiple years. But when you start to zoom out a bit, you start to see like, hey, maybe 1% of equity can actually be more valuable than 20% commission. Because if you're operating a multi-million or multi-billion dollar business, you know that's a life-changing amount of money. And so I don't expect this is something that's gonna happen in the short term. I think it's gonna take a very new class of partners, managers, agents, et cetera, that are willing to enter into these type of. Situations and these type of organizations. But I'm very excited to work with the emerging class of talent that's willing to try something out a little bit differently because I think that new class of talent is looking for an opportunity here. And I think that we've seen time and time again that the systems that exist today work, but I think that there's a lot of room for improvement and I'm excited to use some of the artists that we're working with help push the needle on what that could like.  [00:21:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think the other point that you mentioned too, was aligned as well, just in terms of artists being able to have that team around them. We've seen so many examples where whether it's Jay-Z, having someone like a Dame Dash next to him, or you have Jay Cole and e Bama, they've been working together for years. Kate, uh, Kendrick Lamar, and the whole Top Dog team. These artists are doing it themselves, and oftentimes the ones that try to get stuck, so no different then. Yeah, a startup, if you're trying to raise money, they're gonna push back. If you have the technical co-founder being the same one that's trying to go raise money, right? Like you need to have some expansion there. So I think so much of that makes sense. I do wanna talk about the other piece that you mentioned though, the NFT piece of it, because the way that you're investing in these, I think could be eyeopening to some of the folks listening because you're looking. And I heard you referred to historic NFT opportunities and NFTs as collectables. Can you talk a little bit about what you're looking for if you're investing in NFTs through this fund and how that may separate from what a lot of people may assume when they think about an nft.  [00:22:18] Cooper Turley: Yeah, so there's a really amazing market of songs that are being released as collectibles right now. You know, there's platforms like Sound xyz, where every day an artist is releasing a song with 25 editions as NFTs. And I've been really active across these markets for the course of the last two years. Personally, you know, biggest collector on Sound today, one of the biggest collectors on catalog. And I'm really excited about being able to collect these early songs from artists that are building in Web three. You know, the analog I'd make here. Music, rookie cards. You know, we have rookie cards for basketball players, for baseball players, et cetera. We don't really have rookie cards for artists, and I think in a lot of ways these early music NFTs are sort of the equivalent of an artist rookie card. And so personally, I've been doing this for the last couple years. I recently just put out a post called the Music NFT Collector Thesis. This is how we're thinking about collecting from the fund. But to really break it down, we're thinking about how do we sort of acquire early NFTs that represent historical relevance of this. Web three and Music NFTs have been around for maybe a year at this point. I think that there's a huge opportunity for fans to start getting involved by collecting the songs that they love and for the fund. I almost look at music NFTs as the new form of like masters and publishing. You know, it's not quite one to one, but there's almost this new market being formed of Tradeable assets that you can buy for something like 50 bucks when it drops, and then hopefully have the ability to resell at a later. And I think for the fund, you know, us being able to participate in these markets and say, Hey, we are aware of what's happening on the ground floor with the next generation of developing artists, we're actively collecting these songs that we can show that were there from them, beyond needing to set up a company and needing to do some crazy type of investment situation. And I'm really excited about the opportunity just to have. Ownership over some of these really early collectibles, cuz I think they're very historic in the development of these artists' careers and I believe they're extremely valuable and will continue to demonstrate. So in the years to come.  [00:24:03] Dan Runcie: You brought up an interesting point just about how you feel like NFTs could replace what we are naturally thinking about masters in publishing. I guess in terms of how artists are monetizing and what their ownership looks like. Can you talk a little bit more about that and specifically how that could look or what that could look like? Years down the road. [00:24:23] Cooper Turley: I mean, I'll start by saying that, um, masters in publishing are extremely valuable. You know, I think that this is a system that has worked for generations. There's a huge trend around catalog acquisition. I think that will continue to exist for many, many years to come. I think for someone like myself, me trying to get in the catalog acquisition game is not a smart move. You know, there's a lot of players with a lot more experience. There's a lot of people with a lot more money. The one unique advantage that I do have though, is developing thesises within this small pocket of web three artists, and the best way to get exposure to them is to simply buy their nf. You know the way that this looks is if there's the first song an artist ever released their artist rookie card, and there's 25 additions of that being sold for 50 bucks. If you zoom out and one of these artists becomes the Weekend, Drake Post Malone, Jack Harla, whatever it might be, there's a very high likelihood that those early additions are gonna be worth a lot more than $50. And so instead of trying to invest in the masters in publishing rights, those songs can also go on Spotify. They can stream extremely well. You can have relationships with major label. But I believe those early collectibles have a market of their own. These markets are not tied to any sort of royalty rights because it's just collectibles. You know, there's 25 additions of this digital vinyl. I can buy it for $50 and then sell it for whatever price I want in the future. And I think this is a market that not many people are paying attention to right now. But I think when it comes to new and creative revenue streams for artists, I think that collectibles are gonna be a very, very big market in the years to come. I think it's the most clear way that fans can start to get involved with sort of, Collectible nature of getting involved with an artist and as a fun, I think we're really excited to be participating here to say, Hey, we're really excited about this. I think there's some really amazing plays out there right now, and we're gonna continue to support artists on the ground floor to help develop this thesis.  [00:25:59] Dan Runcie: Why do you think that a lot of people aren't paying attention? Or what do you think some of the, if there's friction or if there is just in a bit of a natural adoption curve, like what do you think's going. [00:26:12] Cooper Turley: It's just new. I mean, this entire market has only been around for a little bit more than a year at this point. You know, in total, I think we have less than a thousand artists that have ever minted a music NFT before. There's probably less than 10,000 people ever collected one before, and so. Relatively speaking, it's just a very new and small market. And I think for a lot of players that have bigger fish to fry, it's probably not worth their time to invest buying records for $50 because they have multimillion dollar record deals in place. You know, and so for someone like myself, um, a lot of what I do is help educate artists that there's a lot of value to be captured in web through right now based on how early it is. You know, I think that there's a lot of unlearning that can be done with the way artists are releasing music in Web three. And so traditionally, when you're putting out a song on Spotify, most artists I know here in. They'll take eight weeks in advance to think about what distributor am I gonna put this out through? Am I gonna sign this to a label? What's my advance? What's my marketing rollout? What's my TikTok campaign? How am I getting pre saves? How am I making the music video? And what I've been preaching is like, Hey, if you have a song, you should put that out tomorrow. You know, like there's people out there that would probably wanna collect that record. And if you can 5 25 people to come and collect music in FT for 0.05 E, they're basically $75. That's the equivalent of half a million streams. And so I think trying to teach people that you don't need to have this giant rollout process to make this headline moment with music. We've gotten really conditioned to trying to shoot for the new Music Friday playlist. You know, all of these emerging editorial playlists. One of the beautiful things about the SoundCloud era was people were just uploading music in real time and if you had your finger on the trigger, you could go and just repost something and be part of a wider movement. And I think what's happening with music and FTS now is artists are gonna start to see that you don't need to have a six week rollout to put out a collection of 25 songs. If you make that song on Wednesday and put it out on Thursday, you can immediately get funding from your biggest fans and use that funding to go and market the rest of your career and instead be able to obviscate the need for a lot of those major capital advances that typically get artists caught up in a weird position in the first place. [00:29:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like if the funding's in place and you can replace early on, because I think for a lot of artists, the economics don't really work out either. Unless A, you own the underlying masters in publishing to begin, so you're just bringing on a. You know, revenue per stream or just general from what you're getting from streaming or on the other side, you're just massive, like Drake or someone like that. And your billions of streams per year brings in plenty of money. But for a lot of other artists, it ends up being either A, a loss leader if you're focusing solely on streaming or a, or you're leaving money on the table some type of way. So I feel like that approach is something that makes sense for a bunch of. On the investing side though, I have a few questions on this, but the first one, on the investing side though, how do you feel like the appetite will be for, let's say an artist does have early investors, the likelihood for those investors to be folks who are accredited, folks that just wanna be able to get a return, versus people who are actual fans of that artist. Any thoughts on what that mix may look like for the average artist that's going through the web? Growth cycle and the rep do growth curve? [00:30:19] Cooper Turley: Yeah. I mean, I can speak on this from the artist seed round that we're doing right now. Every investor in that round has been an active collector of this artist for many, many months. Prior to that, they all have personal relationships with the artist. You know, they may be an accredited investor, but they're not just bringing capital. They've been active and supportive of this artist's career way before the seed round even started. And so I think if we zoom out, there will definitely be situations. Investors just want to put in a couple hundred grand and not really worry about getting involved on the ground floor. But given how early it is right now, most of the investors who are interested in participating in these capital markets are ones who want exposure to both NFTs and to the artist equity. And so I think that over time, collectors to me are a little bit closer to like early investors. Think about them like almost angels or sort of like seed round investors. Over time, collectors will start to mirror more fan behavior. But I think for right now, a lot of the collectors I know, they're just excited to get exposure to an artist's career and to go and support them more so than they are to really go to their show or to buy their merchandise, et cetera. And I think that's where a lot of the pushback comes for web through music is like, oh, these people aren't actually fans. They're just, you know, buying NFTs. But if you zoom into what that means, it's almost a different form of fandom where they're providing capital to be able to have exposure to an artist's career. And their expectations are a lot less on the fan side. I need you to collaborate with this artist. I want you to put out this type of music. It's more so like, Hey, we just wanna support you and your career however we can. Because the more that you're able to identify your vision and create a brand around it, the more valuable our NFTs are going to become. And so it's a very mutual relationship I think hasn't really existed in music in the past. [00:31:50] Dan Runcie: You're really getting at this aspect of community and how artists can foster that, how they can build around them. We've seen the power of that in the SoundCloud era, so we've seen a lot of these things happening and what streaming in general has enabled to happen. What are some of the success stories that stand out to you when you're thinking about artists to be like, oh yeah, they've nailed community, or they're nailing community, like that's how you do it. [00:32:13] Cooper Turley: Yeah. I would say a couple artists to check out. Daniel Allen, I think has done a fantastic job of this in the web three space. Latasha who started something called Zora Topia has done a fantastic job at this Early nft. Artists like Matt Cha os. Grady bloody white. I mean, the list goes on and on, but basically you see. The small pocket of artists that are really making web through a centerpiece for their career, and they're leveraging that into creating more community conversation. Where typically all these artists have a collector chat where once you've bought a music nft, you can get into a private chat with that artist. It's typically 20 people, 25 people, and that artist is in there every day saying like, Hey, what do you guys think about this demo? Hey, I'm thinking about dropping a song next week. Which one do you like more? What do you think I should do for the supply? Do you think we should do an airdrop? And that conversation is a lot more interactive. And I think in a lot of ways artists have typically maintained separation from their fans to kind of uphold this like form of mystery and this like storytelling aspect. But what I'm seeing now is that collectors are getting really close to the artists that they know and love, and those artists are realizing that for a very specific demographic of their audience, they can be very value added, asked the right questions. And so instead of just doing a meet and greet or doing like, you know, 50 people standing in line to say hi, back to back for an hour and a half, it's like, hey, if we wanna have a valuable conversation about the future of my career, These other people that I can turn to, cause I know they have exposure to my brand and they actually typically have experience That's very valuable and it's something that I think is gonna happen more and more with the next generation of collectors to come. [00:33:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's a good way to just think about the framing of it, right? Meet and greets can be great, but it's so transactional. It is really isn't an opportunity. And it kind of has a bit of this like hierarchical thing. Like, oh, I paid $500 extra at this concert to like take a picture with you. Versus no, like if you've really been with this person, then how can you help shape that in the same way that someone that was really early on can? So I feel like there's so many principles there and there's so much that aligns with, especially on the financial side. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the marketing side of it, because I know that's a piece that a lot of artists have had questions about, but I also think that we've seen from. Project specifically with Web three projects like outside of music where whether it is the creator themselves who's been able to market or get the word out effectively, or they've been able to just find ways to build their distribution themselves. What are some of the ways that you've seen artists who've been successful on the Web three Path have been able to replicate, or at least make up for some of the marketing that they would get from a major record label, but otherwise they're recreating on their own. [00:34:47] Cooper Turley: I think it starts from the story, you know, like first of all, what is the music that you're releasing and what is the story behind that? But more importantly, like what is the narrative with how you're using the technology? And so almost fusing together like the creative side with the tech side, you know, whether this be something as simple as like creating your own artist website where people are mentioning s from, or it's something like, hey, we're using on chain splits to reward and compensate. 15 different contributors, five of which didn't touch the music, but were helpful in the development or the project management or the visual assets, et cetera. You know, I think there's new creative channels to help bring more people into the table, but I would say generally Twitter is kind of the main resource for all web three artists. You know, the ones that I see doing really well are typically putting out tweet storms, talking a lot about the drops that they're doing, why they're doing it, and how they're doing it. I see a lot of artists doing these sort of collector chats and more private investor relationships. If they have a bigger release coming out, it's not only about posting the tweetstorm, it's also about going and finding time to talk to some of your bigger collectors one on one and being like, Hey, what do you think about this? How can I get you involved? What are some feedback you would have on this drop? Are you excited or not excited? And I think typically with music, traditionally, how it's released, Artist makes a song, they have their internal team, and then they put it out to the world. And when it's out to the world, everyone forms an opinion on it. With Web three music, a lot of the time, there's a lot more happening behind the scenes before the release actually comes out, so that when it is time for one of these releases to happen, you start to see these things sell out because there was a lot of work put into the record before it came out, and that's not untraditional from typical music, but I think the difference there. Active conversations with your collectors is very new. You know, typically it's like people around a table at a major label that are talking about like, how are we gonna market on TikTok? But this is different because it's going and having very direct conversations with the people that are supporting you the most. And in aggregate that sort of. Neural net of all these different people talking about your drop in tandem. It creates this sort of network effect where when it does come out, there's almost a rippling effect that helps to make the drop become more successful. And I think that's something that I'm seeing being replicated time and time again. [00:36:44]  Dan Runcie: And I know that, as you mentioned, Twitter has been a great space for artists to be able to share things. There's so much. There's so many people in the one three community that are active there, and I think have added to a lot of the discussion and narrative around it. But as someone who's active on Twitter myself, I know how small sometimes those circles can feel. What other platforms or what other areas are you seeing some of these conversations happen, and how long do you think until we're starting to see it not just becoming necessarily a Twitter thing, but it is expanding to more platforms and it's becoming a bit more of. Early majority, at least being able to catch on. [00:37:22] Cooper Turley: I think it'll be Twitter for the foreseeable future. You know, I think that's just where the vast majority of Web three people live. And I think it's actually the one social platform where you can talk about Web three and not get ridiculed for it. You know, I think across nft, TikTok, et cetera, it's very taboo to talk about NFTs, and I don't think that those users are really as tapped into sort of like the valuable aspects of Web three. And so I think for the immediate future, let's call it the next one to two. Twitter, I think is gonna be the source for all of that. And to your point, some of these communities do feel very small, but I think that's actually one of the biggest differences with Web three. You know, I think with traditional marketing platforms, we optimize for impressions, we optimize for plays, for eyeballs, et cetera. On Twitter, if you have 50 people that are consistently showing up to each of your drop, you're doing an amazing job. You know, I think that this is the biggest thing that shows why Web three is valuable is you don't need to have a million monthly listeners to make a couple thousand bucks. If you have 25 people that are willing to come and support you, you can make the same amount of money and have a deeper relationships with those individuals. And so I always say to artists, Even if you're only getting three, five reactions on your tweets every single time, that's very impressive because the benchmark to move the needle and Web three is a lot lower because every individual person is much more active and the quality of those conversations is much higher than what you could expect from a TikTok, Instagram, et cetera. [00:38:36] Dan Runcie: And I think in general, like with those platforms, you're more likely to reach people who are just casually following or passively engaging versus whether if you're already in that audience that's Twitter, you're likely reaching a more active fan base to begin with. And it gets to this whole concept of where can you not just reach followers, but reach people who are actual fans of their music? And a lot of the platforms that have grown tremendously large in the past few. Are much more overindexed on followers and less overindexed or or under indexed rather on true fans. [00:39:08] Cooper Turley: Yeah. And so there's still a lot to be done there. You know, I do believe there's a world in which artists that are using Web three and music NFTs become viral acts that have fans in the traditional sense. I try not to like focus on that too much because there's a lot of work that needs to be done to get there. I think that will happen, but I don't think it's healthy to think. What that looks like today, because frankly, we're just far away from it, you know? And I think for me, helping an artist get a thousand collectors is much more important to me than how do they get 10 million streams on Spotify? You know, if the ladder happens, that's great. But I think the former's actually a lot harder to do because it's a much smaller design space. But, you know, I think there's something really exciting there. And a lot of the work that I do as a collector is really just educating fans on like, why would I wanna collect music? Like, why would I wanna participate on the other side of these? I think from the surface, a lot of bands got really bad experiences with NFTs because artists were just selling random drops that didn't really have any merit to them. They didn't actually care about the output. They were just kind of doing something to be cool at the time. But now what I'm starting to see is that these emerging artists, they really care about their NFTs. They care about them just as much, if not more, than their release strategy on Spotify. And for those demographic of artists. If you are a fan that's looking to sort of develop a brand for yourself around. I believe that this web through music space is a great opportunity to do so. And what we're now seeing is a very small group of music collectors who are building their entire Twitter brand around collecting drops on sound, or writing newsletters or writing mirror posts, et cetera. And I think those are the type of people that I want to try and amplify in Spotlight because it's a very much two-sided marketplace here. And in order for these artists to be successful, you also need to have collectors that are willing to be active in these markets and see success from the music they're collecting as well.  [00:40:42] Dan Runcie: This is one thing that I keep in mind. More broad trends about like what's happening in music, but I also keep it in mind with artists and creators who are trying to expand beyond the folks that they're naturally reaching. Because if you're only going to try to focus on the people that you naturally reach on a regular basis, it, it can work. And I do think that it's kind of like shifting a bit of the psychology, because I think so much of us have been conditioned to just focus. Who is the next person you're gonna reach? What is your customer acquisition cost? It's not just artists, it's the whole industry that's thinking about it this way, but you can build a sustainable business if you are just focused on the pub shot reach. I know it's a bit of that thousand true fans mentality applied to web three, but I think that there's plenty of nuances there. And sometimes it could be less than that. Sometimes it could be more than that. But I think there's some really unique things. One thing. Interested to hear your thoughts on though is just with artists specifically and fans and just the nature of that relationship and whether or not the tokenization of their relationship changes anything. Right. Because I feel like with fans, there's a lot of this conception that because they don't feel like there's nothing that's like financially tying them to them, maybe that brings up, you know, a different relationship than they would if they do feel actually, you know, financially tied to the. Is there any downsides or is there anything that you think of in terms of how that broader tokenization of the relationship changes any of that dynamic or expectations? [00:42:21] Cooper Turley: I definitely think there's downsides, and I think there's a lot of pressure that comes with it. You know, I think for artists that are selling nfts, you need to think about new mechanisms. Like, what is my floor price? What is my volume? Is this asset trading above what I sold it for in the first place? That's a lot of pressure, you know, and that takes a lot of time to get right. I think that over time people are gonna recognize. Collector is getting mad about floor prices. The same as a fan being mad about the type of song that you're releasing, where that's just kind of the name of the game. You know, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it's not like there needs to be a huge reliance on that. I think the one thing the artists need to focus on is actually being consistent with what they're putting out in releasing. If you're giving it your best effort and you're doing things to add value back to early collections, to be able to engage with your community and doing things that show that you're being intentional, that to me matters a lot more than like, what is the price of the tokens themselves, because I think over. We need to recognize that not all fans are the same, and it's not like all music is only gonna exist as NFTs. What's gonna happen is that all these songs are gonna be available on Spotify. If I'm a passive fan, I can go and just listen to that song. There's no expectation for me to ever have a financial relationship with that artist. But the new unlock here is if I wanna go deeper on that relationship. This is something that I've wanted to do for a long time, and I believe many others do. I can now collect something that represents a limited version of that song. And for other people that are excited about that artist's career. Not only can we share on our Instagram story, we can now go into a private collector's chat and say, Hey, I was able to pick up this sold out drop. I was able to pick up one of their early rookie cards, and I think what we start to see is that the fan base gets a little bit more. It's delineated across different verticals where there's some vans who are just showing up to a concert, you know, all the time. I go into GA at a show and I'm like, how do I get these people to buy music and FT use? And the reality is most of them probably never will because they just wanna go and have a good time. They wanna party and forget about their nine to five job. And that's perfectly fine. But I think for the small subset of people who are really passionate about music, those active listeners being able to answer into these more deeper relationships, it's really gonna empower curation in a very new way. And I think the analog I would make here, Sites like Height Machine really drove the success of SoundCloud in a very massive way. You know, there was a demographic of curators who were saying, Hey, we love this type of music. There was all these different blogs, like This song is sick, you know, all these EDM blogs, pigeons and planes, et cetera. They were adding cultural zeitgeist to these songs. And I think the financialization of these assets is not only gonna incentivize people to wanna curate and write about these different article. It's actually gonna give them the means to sustain themselves on the back of doing so. Or if I'm a curator who's really successful at identifying talent, I don't need to go work for a major label as an a and r because I can simply spin up a newsletter on sub stack, go and look at the drop calendar on sound, xyz, and then the event that I'm able to really identify. Successful drops, I can actually start to make a living on the back of my taste. I think that's something that hasn't really existed before and something that I'm personally really excited to see happen more and more in the industry at large. [00:45:08] Dan Runcie: That last piece is huge because it makes me think back to the blog era, especially at hip hop with just. How popular it was when, whether it was sites like Two Dope Boys or Now, right. And their influence on being able to have a mix tape that they're putting out. They're putting their stamp for approval. They're the media channel that's sharing the tape, that's being released from Dap Piff and being like, Hey, here is this new kid Cutty record that you need to listen to a kid named Cutty. You know, this is the mix tape. Check it out. Or the cool kids, or Charles Hamilton or whoever, one of these artists, The difference though, is that even though the artists in the blog era and the people who ran these websites in the blog era were so influential, and I think at a time they even had more influence than the major record labels did. They didn't capture the upside. They created the culture. They created the influence, but they didn't capture the upside. This allows that to happen in a way. The next version of Two Dope Boys could essentially be the one to, like you said, they could start up a newsletter, they could be able to release this and be like, Hey, I'm the one that is putting this investment in and then this is gonna stay there from here on out. That's something that's really special. And to be honest, I don't feel like there's enough discussion around that. So I'm glad you brought that point up. [00:46:26]  Cooper Turley: Absolutely. And I think the one, the one thing I wanna zoom in on there, That doesn't require the artists to sell any of their masters. You know, them putting out 25 editions of a collectible song that a curator can go and buy and then help spread the word about within their pockets. There's no conversation around like, what percentage master publishing does this curator now have? Do I need to bring them into my creative decision, et cetera. It's a new market that now exists on the back of taste and curation, and I think in a lot of ways, music NFTs get pushed back cause they say, oh, you don't actually own the rights. Why do these things have value in the first place? I'm a big believer that community has a lot of value to it. You know, I don't think that art needs utility or needs IP ownership or Masters or publishing to be valuable. I think these curators are able to tell very compelling stories about the impact that music has and being able to add a new market into the equation through music and fts, it really unlocks a new mechanism for artist fandom that I think is very simple to understand. I don't think the average fan will be able. Rationalize what a master or a publishing right looks like. But I think they can understand what a rookie card or what a limited edition of songs looks like. And so I'm very excited to watch these markets mature. And I think that ties back into why the fund is collecting music, NFTs, cuz we believe that. More people are going to be able to understand what it means to own a collectible than they are going to know what it means to own masters or publishing. And so you sort of have these two different sides of the equation. I think they can both work in T and in unison with one another to make the aggregate music market more valuable as a whole. [00:47:51] Dan Runcie: And I think your fun will be a, a test to see how well that works. So, It'll, it'll be, it'll be fascinating. I feel like the structures make sense. You have each day, each piece of it there. I'll be very interested to see what the returns end up being like for each of those categories. Right. Of course, you know, most of the fund is looking at your precede and seed stage music and web three startups, so I assume that it's naturally gonna be what the expectations would be for any young startup. But I'm very interested to see what those expected multiples or the exits will be for the NFTs and then, The artists seed round investments themselves.  [00:48:26] Cooper Turley: Absolutely. I will say that the vast majority of the fund is going into web three companies, but time and time again, people get really excited about this idea of investing in artists. Again, do not have the answers whatsoever, but. I'm noticing people are really excited about that ballpark. So I'm excited to at least start that trend with this first fund here and in the future. I'm hoping that we can create playbooks for many artists who don't even use nft, use their web three to also start to enter in these agreements as well. But you know, I'm really excited about it. You know, like I said, I've been in music for 10 years, crypto for the last five. I feel like this fund is a great way for me to really fuse those two passions together. And it's a very small market right now, but if you made it this far in the episode, I hope that this is something of interest to you and I would love to keep the conversation going if you have more. [00:49:06] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Before we wrap things up and let you go, one of the quotes you had mentioned, you referenced this earlier, the conversation too, that we're not at the point in Music Web three, where Drake is gonna come through and drop an album or a Bieber or a Post Malone or one of those artists. If you had to pick a year that you think that will happen though, what year would you pick? [00:49:26] Cooper Turley: Uh, 2025. Okay. And I think what's gonna happen is that a lot of the biggest artists in the world will just happen to have NFTs under the hood. You know, I don't think it's gonna be like one of those major superstars doing their first drop as NFTs. I think there's like a developing culture of artists right now that are gonna really gain a lot of momentum over the next couple of years. And when they release that major album, you're gonna look back and see that their first songs actually happen to be minted as the collection of 25. A lot of major artists are really excited about this. You know, I spend a lot of my time talking to artists who are currently signed to deals that are saying, Hey, I wanna drop, but I can't because the major label doesn't let me. And I think what's gonna happen is that major labels are gonna wake up to how valuable these early collections can be. And instead of blocking their artists from doing these drops in the first place, they're gonna start to really ramp up and get engaged with them too. So instead of just like, how do we put this album out on Spotify? It's gonna be, how do we develop a relationship with these platforms and onboard our catalog into the. So the biggest thing that I see as a question mark for web three is do we recreate the same systems of Volt? You know, is there going to be a world in which the major labels are just driving the vast majority of NFT sales? I think you're already seeing early examples of this like Warner's partnership with Open Sea, and one thing that I think is really important for us to recognize is that artist independence is very, very valuable. You know, I think that artists owning their own rights and knowing how to run their own companies and run their own business is extremely valuable. And so I'm hopeful that there's a world in. Artists can coexist with labels in a more free form matter. You know, I'm hoping that there's a world where artists can upstream their most viral song to a label, but still retain the rest of their catalog. But I think what's gonna happen over the next year or two is there's going to be. A shuffling of different power dynamics from artists to label relationships. And I think the most forward thinking labels are gonna recognize that it's okay to give up a little bit of control so that an artist can run their business more properly. And if you have 20% of the biggest artists in the world, that's probably more valuable than having 80% of someone who's not really doing much with their career. And so I'm eager and excited to see what those relationships look like and hopefully try and, you know, form some of those early stage relationships along the way. [00:51:41] Dan Runcie: But it's to your point, yeah, they would rather have 20% of that than 80% of the field at this point, so, mm-hmm. , I think we'll see more of that and actually we'll see more of that, not just involving multimedia, but involv. More merging technology. So yeah, it's only a matter of time. 2025 is earlier than I thought you were gonna say, but things move quick, so we'll keep the, we'll keep an eye out for it.Cool. Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. This is great. [00:52:07] Cooper Turley: Thank you, man. I just wanna say, I really appreciate this podcast because you're so well versed when it comes to both the music side, the tech side, and the financial side. I think that it's, Um, difficult for me to find pockets to really talk about the financialization of music. You know, there's a lot of pushback that comes from it, but you know, the way you structured this conversation I think really gives a clear picture of why I'm excited about more of the financialization of music. I think it gives a lot of credence to emerging artists and sort of the way I'm thinking about collecting. So really appreciate you making this happen. I think it was a fantastic episode. I'm excited to share with all my friends. [00:52:37] Dan Runcie: Likewise, no. These are the conversations that need to happen, right? The more that people can talk about it, the more it just gets in the open and the faster things get to where it should be.So thank you for making the time. This is great.  [00:52:49] Cooper Turley: Yeah. The last thing I'll say here in closing, I write a weekly newsletter called This Week in Music, NFTs. If you're interested in any of this conversation, every Monday I publish a short edition that talks about upcoming drops, top stories, bonus read from the community. So if you're looking to get more involved in the web three space, that's where I'd recommend getting started. And then if you are a founder or an artist that's building something and looking for investment, the best place to reach me is via email coop Coop records xyz. But again, thank you so much for having me, man. This was a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate your time. [00:53:18] Dan Runcie: Thank you. And if you're not following him on Twitter and you reactive on Twitter, make sure you do that. What's your Twitter handle? [00:53:23] Cooper Turley: Twitter is at kooopatroopa. Good stuff. Thanks man. Thanks for having me. Wed, 23 Nov 2022 09:00:00 -0000 Investing in Web3 Music with Coopahtroopa full Dan Runcie Cooper Turley, better known as Coopahtroopa, is betting big on ushering a new generation of music. In September, he announced a first-of-its-kind investment fund focused squarely on web3 music projects and artists themselves. Coop Records raised $10 million and Coopah will be the sole general partner.  He’s hesitant to call it just an investment fund though. That’s because Coop Records is also a record label and incubator. Coopah will invest directly into web3-native music artists in a “seed round” — turning emerging artists into venture-backed startups. Structuring an artist’s company is what Coopah sees as web3’s biggest opportunity: resetting ownership dynamics. NFTs are another vertical of the Coop Records fund, in addition to the seed-stage investing in both companies and artists.   Coopah joined me on the show to give us an in-depth look at how Coop Records is eying its investment opportunities. Here’s everything we covered: [0:00] How Coop Records started [2:06] Focusing on emerging artists, not established ones  [3:35] Coop Records’ investment thesis [7:24] Investing in artists during “seed round” [9:50] Structuring artists as a holdings company [11:40] What does an exit look like for artists investors? [15:00] Artists as CEOs [20:11] What makes a music NFT historical  [22:28] NFTs as a replacement for masters and publishing [27:18] Accredited investors vs. fan investors [29:30] Artist success stories with community building on web3 [31:40] Focusing on story when marketing NFTs [34:25] Optimizing for engagement not reach on social  [39:24] How tokenization changes the artist-fan relationship  [47:00] Predicting the year that music NFTs go mainstream  [48:25] Coop’s big question for web3 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Cooper Turley, @Cooopahtroopa   Download The Culture Report here: https://trapital.ck.page/a23b7a6a4a   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Cooper Turley: And I think that gets to this artist development piece more broadly is that you're trying to start the process much earlier, much earlier than I think a lot of the major record labels are starting now. Because I think they often wanna see artists having some proven. Track record before they're willing to sign them. [00:00:24] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Dan Ruey. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:49] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Cooper Turley, aka Coopa Troopa. He is the founder of Coop Records, which is a new venture fund, a 10 million fund that is focused on investing in the future of music, specifically in web three. He is someone that has made a name for himself as a thought leader in the space. He was involved with the Dow Friends with benefits and he's now started this fund to make economics better for artists and ultimately help them take more advantage of the opportunities that are around them. So we talked about a lot of it. We talked about how he views the space right now, why he started this fund, and what the fund's investing in. There are three main areas that we go into. We talk about investing in music startup. Investing in artist seed rounds and investing in NFTs themselves as an investible assets that him as a general partner and little Bited partners would wanna see returns from. So we talk about what the economics of that look like. I think that. Cooper stands out in a lot of ways because he has a much more nuanced understanding of how Web Three fits in with the broader ecosystem of what's happening right now in music, what some of the trade offs are with the financials, the relationship with fans, what services it offers versus the traditional record labels and more really insightful conversation, and I hope you enjoy it. Here’s our chat. [00:02:07] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're joined by Coopa Troopa who just launched Coup Records, which is his fund that is investing in the future of music and Web three specifically. And first off, congrats. I saw the announcement, it's really dope. So walk me through the process from thinking about you wanna start this fund to where you are now, today with it. [00:02:28] Cooper Turley: Absolutely. Well, first of all, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. I've been in music for the last 10 years in crypto for the last five, and so I've seen everything from ICOs to Defi, to Dows, and not most recently NFTs. You know, throughout that time I've been active across public markets as a trader, behind the scenes, as an angel investor, as a community builder, and as an operator. And when I started to think about how to connect all the pieces together, I've always been a fan of music. I felt like there was never really a clear vehicle to help elevate and amplify the space. And so I found coop records to be the best way to really just zoom in on this niche that I'm so excited about and figure out how to really help the founders, artists, and builders that are supporting this space everyday. [00:03:05] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. What were the conversations like getting buy-in from LPs? [00:03:10] Cooper Turley: Basically helping to explain what music NFTs are, why this is a vertical that you'd wanna invest in at this time and day? You know, historically I think that music has gotten a bit of a bad rep, cuz it's very antiquated in a lot of ways. You know, there's a lot of systems that are very complicated and hopefully we can unpack some of those on this episode. But, I think we through presents a new opportunity for artists to monetize in creative ways. You know, as someone who's been a curator my whole life, it's very easy for me to understand the value of investing in songs, artists, et cetera. But for someone who's not music savvy and not passionate about this sector, you know, the majority of those conversations are why would anyone wanna collect a song? Why would someone wanna invest in an artist? And trying to help people understand why there's an opportunity here that I think is. Influential and paramount for the next chapter of music. But once people get over that line, you know, I've kind of been able to build a brand for myself that I think speaks very clearly to why I'm so excited about music. And so for investors that are looking to get exposure to the space, coop records is a great way to get that exposure without them having to get as deep in the trenches as I am. [00:04:07] Dan Runcie: Right. And I gotta imagine that that probably took a few conversations just given things that I'm hearing too, from folks. People, they understand the promise and the opportunity of what NFTs and what web three offer, but there's. Hesitation, there's still perception about what's going on and some of the headlines that people see. How did you communicate or address some of those concerns while still sharing the value add for what you have?  [00:04:32] Cooper Turley: Yeah, I really focus on emerging artists. You know, I think that this is where the vast majority of value will accrue over the next couple years with Web three. And so when you think about investing in music, most people's mind goes to like, how do we get Drake to drop NFTs? I actually don't really focus on that at all. Instead, I think about how do we develop the next act that becomes Drake using Web three tools? And so for investors that are kind of hesitant about getting involved in the space, I point out early examples like X copier people, you know, crypto artists who really made a brand and a name for themselves on the back of selling their nfts. And obviously in the case of people, he had a major brand before, but it wasn't until the existence of NFTs and sort of these community based assets that they started to see monetization aspects with their fans and with their collectors. And so trying to highlight that there's an opportunity here to develop and support emerging artists new to Web three through music, I think it really made a clear case that. This isn't about trying to get your biggest celebrity to drop NFTs. I think that will happen at some point in time. But this is about investing in the infrastructure and the artists that are going to make this space very valuable over the next couple years. [00:05:31] Dan Runcie: And one of the things I like too about how your fund is structured or reminds me a bit of Matt Pinkus and how his music fund is structured. It's not just focused solely on startups that are trying to build the next tech platforms. You're also looking more broadly. The NFT space itself and what that opportunity looks like and it'd be great to break each of those down. So let's start first with the music tech companies, cuz I know that's 85% of your fund looking at preceded seed stage companies. What's your thesis for the type of company that is a coop records company that you're looking for?  [00:06:04] Cooper Turley:  I'm a really big fan of composability. So in Defi there's this concept of money Legos or protocols and platforms that could plug into one another. I believe the same thesis will play out with music, where we're gonna have music legos, where there's different marketplaces, service providers, tooling, infrastructure that can help sort of amplify what an artist can do with Web three. And so when I think about investing in a music tech company, I think about culturally, is this company aware and active within the pocket that I'm spending a lot of my time in? And then beyond being aware of sort of the artists, the songs, the type of platforms that are doing well in this space, do they have the open mindedness to wanna work in collaboration with those other platforms? So in accurate, we can kind of create this toolkit in this stack where if I am an artist who's new to web three, it's not about choosing Spotify versus Apple, it's actually about trying to develop a presence across many platforms. And hopefully those platforms. The life of the artist easier by making everything connect together with one another. [00:06:56] Dan Runcie: And I feel like this speaks to one of the broader themes that I know you've talked about before, is. It can't be this approach of web three versus web two. These things need to be collaborative. No more zero sum games. How can you think more broadly about the opportunity there? How do you view that more broadly, not just with the fun, but also likely how you're seeing the space with any artist that you're working with too? [00:07:21] Cooper Turley: I'm really laser focused on web three platforms because I think there's a lot more room for change within those platforms. You know, I have nothing against legacy platforms like Spotify have done fantastic work for artists and I think there will be at a time and day when they're able to enable music, NFTs to be purchased, collected, listened to within their platform. But the reality is these companies are so sophisticated that trying to move the needle is very complicated. And so for someone like. I'm running this fund as a solo gp. It's a relatively small fund, and so when I think about where I can have impact and leverage, it's typically working with very early stage founders. You know, I can get in the trenches and help to develop the product. Think about how we're onboarding artists, think about new marketing strategies. And so for me, I think right now it's about cementing the cultural relevance and value of this emerging wave of Web three music. And once that's been clear and established, we can take those same values, ideas, songs, artists, and help to bring those into the traditional industry in a more clear way. Because right now I think that a lot of the bigger players, let's call it major labels, et cetera, they recognize that there's value to be captured in Web three, but I don't think that they have the same level. Boots on the ground cultural awareness that maybe someone like, um, myself or some of my colleagues have. And so I think the challenge here is a, making it very clear what that culture is so you can start to translate it to larger players. And then once that they agree there is something of value there, you know, being able to act as a connector where you can say, Hey, maybe instead of going and doing a 500,000 or a million dollar drop for the biggest act on your roster, let's go ahead and find an emerging artist who's curious about the space and develop them with the course. Five or $10,000 drops and instead really build that community and that collector base in a very organic way. [00:08:56] Dan Runcie:  And I think that gets to this artist development piece more broadly is that you're trying to start the process much earlier, much earlier than I think a lot of the major record labels are starting now. Because I think they often wanna see artists having some proven. Track record before they're willing to sign them. And in some ways your approach isn't too much different. Maybe it's just a bit of a different stage because one of the other areas that you're investing in is artist seed rounds. And can you describe. What stage an artist would have to be in order to be at the seed round, and what types of things you're looking for there from an artist? [00:09:33] Cooper Turley: I think it's very similar to what I look for in companies. You know, has this artist been able to prove a little bit of traction? You know, have they demonstrated that they're culturally aware of where this industry is headed? You know, different things that I feel like are interesting to kind of describe. Cause it's not very concrete. Like you can't point to like a specific amount of sales or a specific amount of volume and say, okay, this artist is ready to be invested in. But it's really just a development process of like, is this person making web three a focal point in their career? I believe that that's something really important for me personally, cuz that's where I had the most leverage. But once they've demonstrated that they've been able to release on some of the bigger web through platforms, you know, once they've been able to collaborate and onboard other artists to the space, you know, you start to see that these people have like a little bit. Leverage was sort of their career. And at that point in time, instead of signing a traditional record deal, co records can really be the one to say like, Hey, let's go ahead and set up a company for you. Let's think about how we wanna do a cap table. Let's bring on some partners to give you the capital that you need to go and hire a team around you. So instead of selling your next three albums to a major label, you can instead fund this through accredited investors. And then over time think about the ways you wanna bring other partners into the fold, but not need to be so reliant on the capital to do that in the first place. [00:10:38] Dan Runcie: And with the artists specifically, cuz I know that you've started the fund. Maybe for the people listening, is there a particular artist that you have made a seed investment in just so people can get a good idea for, okay, this is someone that we invested in, this is where they're at in their career, and this is what the opportunity is  [00:10:56] Cooper Turley: Not publicly. I think by the time this comes out, we'll be right around there. You know, I can say that privately, behind the scenes we're working. The first round, you know, we've had some very serious progress on it. Investors are excited about it. We're going through the whole corporate structure, but for me, this is a very different lane because it's not as simple as just investing in the safe note of a precede company. You know, there's a lot more complexity around IP ownership, around revenue sharing around. Kind of how this artist thinks about their company and what kind of rights they're giving back to people. And so it's a slower process, but it's one that's currently in motion. I expect that we'll probably have the first one announced within the next one to two months, but I can definitely say there's one in motion that I'm really excited about. And I think, you know, by the end of this calendar year, we should have that one announced.  [00:11:37] Dan Runcie: I think part of this too is also the structure of things. You mentioned this earlier, and I think for a lot of artists it's probably. Not necessarily a new way to think about it, because I think in general, artists do think of themselves as having multiple revenue streams, but in order for this to work, in order for you to be able to make an investment, there needs to be some type of, whether it's a holding company or some type of structure in place so that you can make an investment that would touch all of these things. Can you talk a little bit about what that looks like on the artist side?  [00:12:05] Cooper Turley: Yeah, it's a fantastic question. I wanna start by saying, This is early days and so this is the first stab at it. I think that this model will evolve and change over time. The way we're thinking about it is there's one Hold Co, that represents the artist ownership across their various income streams, uh, that hold co owns subsidiary entities, one of them being a music entity, which owns the masters in publishing for that artist. One being a live entity, which owns touring and merchandising, and then one being a Web three entity, which owns NFTs and. And so all of that wraps up into the larger hold cow. But the reasons those subsidiaries exist is because we wanna limit liability to each of those different vertical. If there's an issue across web three, we don't want that to end up touching the masters. If an artist wants to go and sign a record deal, they shouldn't have to figure out what to do with their touring or what their NFTs to be able to enter into agreement with a different party. And so we've kind of split up the different verticals into buckets that make sense relative to the type of partners and the type of work that it is. But all of that rounds back up into this holding company and when it comes time to invest in the artist, quote unquote, that artist is selling anywhere from five to 10% of that hold cow to accredited investors so that they can have exposure and pass through to those underlying revenue streams. But there's not this sort of majority ownership, creative control, et cetera. It's really, here's capital and exchange for you to go do what you do best. In exchange for that, we have exposure to these underlying entities, which represent the artist brand in its entirety. [00:13:27] Dan Runcie: And for an investor like you, I think most people listening have a good idea of what an exit looks like for a startup, but what does an exit look like for you as an investor, for an artist, if you're going in at that seed round? [00:13:39] Cooper Turley: I think there's a couple ways it can pan out. You know, one I think would be IP acquisition. Let's say that there's a buyout of someone's masters or publishing, et cetera. You know, there's kind of larger capital inflections that can happen later down an artist's career. I'm more excited about this idea of taking artists public cuz it's something that hasn't really been done before, but I think will happen eventually. Where right now, if you're a fan, you can't really invest or bet on an artist. I think we're starting to see us at a very granular level with music NFTs, and it's something I would love to cover as the last bucket next, but to me, I think an exit here is helping an artist really take this company that we structure for themselves and explore what it means to go public. And so rather than only accredited investors being able to buy into that five or 10%, how do you invite fans to participate in that convers. I think that there's a lot of, uh, legal nuance there that needs to be figured out. And so I don't have that answer today, but I would say that more broadly, the two ways that this could happen is a, investors are seeing a return from the IP becoming more valuable, and they're being capital injected into the whole co. Or B, more optimistically the artist, quote unquote, going public by either, you know, listing on a traditional market or what I think is more likely is creating some form of a token, which represents exposure to this entity that's been set up to represent the artist brand in the first. [00:14:49] Dan Runcie: Got it. And then from a structure perspective, do you ever hear any type of pushback or comments from artists who feel like, oh, you're getting a slice of all these revenue deals. This feels similar to a 360 deal. Do you hear any of that at all? [00:15:04] Cooper Turley:  Yeah, I mean, it is a 360 deal, and I think that that's really important to like zoom in on, because 360 deals have gotten a really negative rep because of the percentage ownership that they typically encompass. So traditionally with 360 deals, it's anywhere from 50 to 80. When we talk about a 360 deal in this context, it's five or 10%. And if you start to look at the way that companies take on dilution and precede and seed stage rounds, it's kind of the same concept. You know, like that company is basically taking all of their revenue into this central entity and they're selling off dilution to investors. And so I think for artists, this is particularly scary because there's been such a history of people taking advantage of 360. But I don't think the structure with 360 deals incorrect. I just think the ownership targets that those deals are typically set at is what's really predatory. And so if we can zoom out a bit and instead say, Hey, five or 10% can give you a couple hundred grand, maybe a million dollars to go invest in a team around you, there's ways for that capital to be really value added where the dilution is actually necessary and valuable because it helps you advance your artist career in a way that you simply couldn't do without it. [00:16:04] Dan Runcie: I agree with that. I think that that's, Testament of some of the challenges with the broader major record label system as well, right? It's not that people shouldn't be willing to trade some level of ownership in exchange to get a boost from the company. It's how much ownership, it's what the terms that the actual economics look like, not the economic agreement itself. [00:16:28] Cooper Turley: Yeah, it's correct. And I think that it's something that is really important to help educate artists on. And this is the area that I'm actually most fascinated by is like artists really thinking about rights ownership, thinking about dilution, thinking about cap table management. And just with that in mind, I wanna highlight, it's a very specific type of artist that is willing to enter into this quote unquote, artists seed round. Because I think that most artists are not thinking about their brand as a ceo, but I think there are very selective artists who think about their entity as a business and for those specific artists being able to demonst. There's value in having employees. There's value in giving them long term options and equity, and having these ownership incentives be a little bit more aligned. I think traditionally music has existed in this weird ballpark where we've basically only ever sold masters in publishing. We haven't really experimented with equity or any of these other ownership vehicles that startups have been taking for the last couple generations, so I'm excited to explore it. You know, I by no means have all the answers, but I think. My time investing in precede and seed stage companies has given me a little bit of context on how things work behind the scenes, and I'm hoping that with a little time and effort, we can sort of mold those same practices and help apply them to artists more broadly. [00:17:34] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I have to imagine too, with artists as well, there's some artists that love the mentality of being the business person themself that can be the CEO and wear multiple hats. There's other artists who I. As much as they want the business to work for them, they just wanna focus on the art. So there's specific things that you're looking for to determine, okay, is this artist gonna be wanting to be the ceo? Or maybe making sure that they are partnered with someone that may wanna be in that role instead [00:18:05] Cooper Turley: Yeah, I mean, you just touched on it perfectly. I think that there's situations where artists have partners that are acting as their ceo, you know, and in many typical startups you have a ceo, a cto, a ceo, et cetera. Um, the artist isn't the only person that's responsible for their success. They're obviously the largest player in that. But it's less about, is this artist capable of being a ceo? It's more about is this artist capable of building a team around them that can. In tandem as a unit and as an organization. And if that artist is uncapable of operating as the CEO, because they're phenomenal at making music, it's very likely that there may be a manager, an agent, a business partner, et cetera, that could step into that role. And I think the biggest thing that I'm excited about is to realign incentives around the service providers around an artist. So whether that be a manager, an agent, a business manager, a lawyer, et cetera. Typically, all these actors are just operating on commission, you know, and they have five or 10 clients because there's no guarantee that they'll be with that artist in 10 years time. You know, these contracts aren't really a center aligned for those key players. But if we can instead start to create an instrument where a managers may be able to take a salary and then have equity that's vested over four years, I think there will be more situations where artists would be willing to enter into a full-time quote unquote agreement with their manager, because that a manager is now incentive aligned to actually spend all their time developing one. Instead of needing to commission off of five or 10 different artists just to be able to make a living. [00:19:24] Dan Runcie: It's a huge point because there's so many managers I've talked to that just talk about how thankless that job is, and that's purely just from how they're treated, not even getting to the economic aspect. You start thinking about the economics about how managers are treated and yeah, maybe you'll get 10 to 15 to 20%, but if that artist levels up and then they wanna level up their manager too, they can just be like, Hey, sorry, I wanna move on. And you, the person that brought them from zero to 40. Now you have nothing. Right? [00:19:54] Cooper Turley: Yeah. I mean, it happens time and time again from smaller artists to the biggest acts in the world. I mean, I don't have to name names here, but I think we all know examples of this happening time and time. And it's really just a game of incentive alignment. You know? And when I think about the term web three, to me that means ownership. And so for all of these different deals that I'm doing, it's about how do you create ownership incentives so that everyone who's contributing value to this entity is able to capture that in some way, shape, or form. And so I think it's a very difficult conversation to tell a manager, Hey, instead of taking a 15 or a 20% commission, you're gonna get a base salary and then have a couple equity percentage points that best over multiple years. But when you start to zoom out a bit, you start to see like, hey, maybe 1% of equity can actually be more valuable than 20% commission. Because if you're operating a multi-million or multi-billion dollar business, you know that's a life-changing amount of money. And so I don't expect this is something that's gonna happen in the short term. I think it's gonna take a very new class of partners, managers, agents, et cetera, that are willing to enter into these type of. Situations and these type of organizations. But I'm very excited to work with the emerging class of talent that's willing to try something out a little bit differently because I think that new class of talent is looking for an opportunity here. And I think that we've seen time and time again that the systems that exist today work, but I think that there's a lot of room for improvement and I'm excited to use some of the artists that we're working with help push the needle on what that could like.  [00:21:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think the other point that you mentioned too, was aligned as well, just in terms of artists being able to have that team around them. We've seen so many examples where whether it's Jay-Z, having someone like a Dame Dash next to him, or you have Jay Cole and e Bama, they've been working together for years. Kate, uh, Kendrick Lamar, and the whole Top Dog team. These artists are doing it themselves, and oftentimes the ones that try to get stuck, so no different then. Yeah, a startup, if you're trying to raise money, they're gonna push back. If you have the technical co-founder being the same one that's trying to go raise money, right? Like you need to have some expansion there. So I think so much of that makes sense. I do wanna talk about the other piece that you mentioned though, the NFT piece of it, because the way that you're investing in these, I think could be eyeopening to some of the folks listening because you're looking. And I heard you referred to historic NFT opportunities and NFTs as collectables. Can you talk a little bit about what you're looking for if you're investing in NFTs through this fund and how that may separate from what a lot of people may assume when they think about an nft.  [00:22:18] Cooper Turley: Yeah, so there's a really amazing market of songs that are being released as collectibles right now. You know, there's platforms like Sound xyz, where every day an artist is releasing a song with 25 editions as NFTs. And I've been really active across these markets for the course of the last two years. Personally, you know, biggest collector on Sound today, one of the biggest collectors on catalog. And I'm really excited about being able to collect these early songs from artists that are building in Web three. You know, the analog I'd make here. Music, rookie cards. You know, we have rookie cards for basketball players, for baseball players, et cetera. We don't really have rookie cards for artists, and I think in a lot of ways these early music NFTs are sort of the equivalent of an artist rookie card. And so personally, I've been doing this for the last couple years. I recently just put out a post called the Music NFT Collector Thesis. This is how we're thinking about collecting from the fund. But to really break it down, we're thinking about how do we sort of acquire early NFTs that represent historical relevance of this. Web three and Music NFTs have been around for maybe a year at this point. I think that there's a huge opportunity for fans to start getting involved by collecting the songs that they love and for the fund. I almost look at music NFTs as the new form of like masters and publishing. You know, it's not quite one to one, but there's almost this new market being formed of Tradeable assets that you can buy for something like 50 bucks when it drops, and then hopefully have the ability to resell at a later. And I think for the fund, you know, us being able to participate in these markets and say, Hey, we are aware of what's happening on the ground floor with the next generation of developing artists, we're actively collecting these songs that we can show that were there from them, beyond needing to set up a company and needing to do some crazy type of investment situation. And I'm really excited about the opportunity just to have. Ownership over some of these really early collectibles, cuz I think they're very historic in the development of these artists' careers and I believe they're extremely valuable and will continue to demonstrate. So in the years to come.  [00:24:03] Dan Runcie: You brought up an interesting point just about how you feel like NFTs could replace what we are naturally thinking about masters in publishing. I guess in terms of how artists are monetizing and what their ownership looks like. Can you talk a little bit more about that and specifically how that could look or what that could look like? Years down the road. [00:24:23] Cooper Turley: I mean, I'll start by saying that, um, masters in publishing are extremely valuable. You know, I think that this is a system that has worked for generations. There's a huge trend around catalog acquisition. I think that will continue to exist for many, many years to come. I think for someone like myself, me trying to get in the catalog acquisition game is not a smart move. You know, there's a lot of players with a lot more experience. There's a lot of people with a lot more money. The one unique advantage that I do have though, is developing thesises within this small pocket of web three artists, and the best way to get exposure to them is to simply buy their nf. You know the way that this looks is if there's the first song an artist ever released their artist rookie card, and there's 25 additions of that being sold for 50 bucks. If you zoom out and one of these artists becomes the Weekend, Drake Post Malone, Jack Harla, whatever it might be, there's a very high likelihood that those early additions are gonna be worth a lot more than $50. And so instead of trying to invest in the masters in publishing rights, those songs can also go on Spotify. They can stream extremely well. You can have relationships with major label. But I believe those early collectibles have a market of their own. These markets are not tied to any sort of royalty rights because it's just collectibles. You know, there's 25 additions of this digital vinyl. I can buy it for $50 and then sell it for whatever price I want in the future. And I think this is a market that not many people are paying attention to right now. But I think when it comes to new and creative revenue streams for artists, I think that collectibles are gonna be a very, very big market in the years to come. I think it's the most clear way that fans can start to get involved with sort of, Collectible nature of getting involved with an artist and as a fun, I think we're really excited to be participating here to say, Hey, we're really excited about this. I think there's some really amazing plays out there right now, and we're gonna continue to support artists on the ground floor to help develop this thesis.  [00:25:59] Dan Runcie: Why do you think that a lot of people aren't paying attention? Or what do you think some of the, if there's friction or if there is just in a bit of a natural adoption curve, like what do you think's going. [00:26:12] Cooper Turley: It's just new. I mean, this entire market has only been around for a little bit more than a year at this point. You know, in total, I think we have less than a thousand artists that have ever minted a music NFT before. There's probably less than 10,000 people ever collected one before, and so. Relatively speaking, it's just a very new and small market. And I think for a lot of players that have bigger fish to fry, it's probably not worth their time to invest buying records for $50 because they have multimillion dollar record deals in place. You know, and so for someone like myself, um, a lot of what I do is help educate artists that there's a lot of value to be captured in web through right now based on how early it is. You know, I think that there's a lot of unlearning that can be done with the way artists are releasing music in Web three. And so traditionally, when you're putting out a song on Spotify, most artists I know here in. They'll take eight weeks in advance to think about what distributor am I gonna put this out through? Am I gonna sign this to a label? What's my advance? What's my marketing rollout? What's my TikTok campaign? How am I getting pre saves? How am I making the music video? And what I've been preaching is like, Hey, if you have a song, you should put that out tomorrow. You know, like there's people out there that would probably wanna collect that record. And if you can 5 25 people to come and collect music in FT for 0.05 E, they're basically $75. That's the equivalent of half a million streams. And so I think trying to teach people that you don't need to have this giant rollout process to make this headline moment with music. We've gotten really conditioned to trying to shoot for the new Music Friday playlist. You know, all of these emerging editorial playlists. One of the beautiful things about the SoundCloud era was people were just uploading music in real time and if you had your finger on the trigger, you could go and just repost something and be part of a wider movement. And I think what's happening with music and FTS now is artists are gonna start to see that you don't need to have a six week rollout to put out a collection of 25 songs. If you make that song on Wednesday and put it out on Thursday, you can immediately get funding from your biggest fans and use that funding to go and market the rest of your career and instead be able to obviscate the need for a lot of those major capital advances that typically get artists caught up in a weird position in the first place. [00:29:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like if the funding's in place and you can replace early on, because I think for a lot of artists, the economics don't really work out either. Unless A, you own the underlying masters in publishing to begin, so you're just bringing on a. You know, revenue per stream or just general from what you're getting from streaming or on the other side, you're just massive, like Drake or someone like that. And your billions of streams per year brings in plenty of money. But for a lot of other artists, it ends up being either A, a loss leader if you're focusing solely on streaming or a, or you're leaving money on the table some type of way. So I feel like that approach is something that makes sense for a bunch of. On the investing side though, I have a few questions on this, but the first one, on the investing side though, how do you feel like the appetite will be for, let's say an artist does have early investors, the likelihood for those investors to be folks who are accredited, folks that just wanna be able to get a return, versus people who are actual fans of that artist. Any thoughts on what that mix may look like for the average artist that's going through the web? Growth cycle and the rep do growth curve? [00:30:19] Cooper Turley: Yeah. I mean, I can speak on this from the artist seed round that we're doing right now. Every investor in that round has been an active collector of this artist for many, many months. Prior to that, they all have personal relationships with the artist. You know, they may be an accredited investor, but they're not just bringing capital. They've been active and supportive of this artist's career way before the seed round even started. And so I think if we zoom out, there will definitely be situations. Investors just want to put in a couple hundred grand and not really worry about getting involved on the ground floor. But given how early it is right now, most of the investors who are interested in participating in these capital markets are ones who want exposure to both NFTs and to the artist equity. And so I think that over time, collectors to me are a little bit closer to like early investors. Think about them like almost angels or sort of like seed round investors. Over time, collectors will start to mirror more fan behavior. But I think for right now, a lot of the collectors I know, they're just excited to get exposure to an artist's career and to go and support them more so than they are to really go to their show or to buy their merchandise, et cetera. And I think that's where a lot of the pushback comes for web through music is like, oh, these people aren't actually fans. They're just, you know, buying NFTs. But if you zoom into what that means, it's almost a different form of fandom where they're providing capital to be able to have exposure to an artist's career. And their expectations are a lot less on the fan side. I need you to collaborate with this artist. I want you to put out this type of music. It's more so like, Hey, we just wanna support you and your career however we can. Because the more that you're able to identify your vision and create a brand around it, the more valuable our NFTs are going to become. And so it's a very mutual relationship I think hasn't really existed in music in the past. [00:31:50] Dan Runcie: You're really getting at this aspect of community and how artists can foster that, how they can build around them. We've seen the power of that in the SoundCloud era, so we've seen a lot of these things happening and what streaming in general has enabled to happen. What are some of the success stories that stand out to you when you're thinking about artists to be like, oh yeah, they've nailed community, or they're nailing community, like that's how you do it. [00:32:13] Cooper Turley: Yeah. I would say a couple artists to check out. Daniel Allen, I think has done a fantastic job of this in the web three space. Latasha who started something called Zora Topia has done a fantastic job at this Early nft. Artists like Matt Cha os. Grady bloody white. I mean, the list goes on and on, but basically you see. The small pocket of artists that are really making web through a centerpiece for their career, and they're leveraging that into creating more community conversation. Where typically all these artists have a collector chat where once you've bought a music nft, you can get into a private chat with that artist. It's typically 20 people, 25 people, and that artist is in there every day saying like, Hey, what do you guys think about this demo? Hey, I'm thinking about dropping a song next week. Which one do you like more? What do you think I should do for the supply? Do you think we should do an airdrop? And that conversation is a lot more interactive. And I think in a lot of ways artists have typically maintained separation from their fans to kind of uphold this like form of mystery and this like storytelling aspect. But what I'm seeing now is that collectors are getting really close to the artists that they know and love, and those artists are realizing that for a very specific demographic of their audience, they can be very value added, asked the right questions. And so instead of just doing a meet and greet or doing like, you know, 50 people standing in line to say hi, back to back for an hour and a half, it's like, hey, if we wanna have a valuable conversation about the future of my career, These other people that I can turn to, cause I know they have exposure to my brand and they actually typically have experience That's very valuable and it's something that I think is gonna happen more and more with the next generation of collectors to come. [00:33:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's a good way to just think about the framing of it, right? Meet and greets can be great, but it's so transactional. It is really isn't an opportunity. And it kind of has a bit of this like hierarchical thing. Like, oh, I paid $500 extra at this concert to like take a picture with you. Versus no, like if you've really been with this person, then how can you help shape that in the same way that someone that was really early on can? So I feel like there's so many principles there and there's so much that aligns with, especially on the financial side. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the marketing side of it, because I know that's a piece that a lot of artists have had questions about, but I also think that we've seen from. Project specifically with Web three projects like outside of music where whether it is the creator themselves who's been able to market or get the word out effectively, or they've been able to just find ways to build their distribution themselves. What are some of the ways that you've seen artists who've been successful on the Web three Path have been able to replicate, or at least make up for some of the marketing that they would get from a major record label, but otherwise they're recreating on their own. [00:34:47] Cooper Turley: I think it starts from the story, you know, like first of all, what is the music that you're releasing and what is the story behind that? But more importantly, like what is the narrative with how you're using the technology? And so almost fusing together like the creative side with the tech side, you know, whether this be something as simple as like creating your own artist website where people are mentioning s from, or it's something like, hey, we're using on chain splits to reward and compensate. 15 different contributors, five of which didn't touch the music, but were helpful in the development or the project management or the visual assets, et cetera. You know, I think there's new creative channels to help bring more people into the table, but I would say generally Twitter is kind of the main resource for all web three artists. You know, the ones that I see doing really well are typically putting out tweet storms, talking a lot about the drops that they're doing, why they're doing it, and how they're doing it. I see a lot of artists doing these sort of collector chats and more private investor relationships. If they have a bigger release coming out, it's not only about posting the tweetstorm, it's also about going and finding time to talk to some of your bigger collectors one on one and being like, Hey, what do you think about this? How can I get you involved? What are some feedback you would have on this drop? Are you excited or not excited? And I think typically with music, traditionally, how it's released, Artist makes a song, they have their internal team, and then they put it out to the world. And when it's out to the world, everyone forms an opinion on it. With Web three music, a lot of the time, there's a lot more happening behind the scenes before the release actually comes out, so that when it is time for one of these releases to happen, you start to see these things sell out because there was a lot of work put into the record before it came out, and that's not untraditional from typical music, but I think the difference there. Active conversations with your collectors is very new. You know, typically it's like people around a table at a major label that are talking about like, how are we gonna market on TikTok? But this is different because it's going and having very direct conversations with the people that are supporting you the most. And in aggregate that sort of. Neural net of all these different people talking about your drop in tandem. It creates this sort of network effect where when it does come out, there's almost a rippling effect that helps to make the drop become more successful. And I think that's something that I'm seeing being replicated time and time again. [00:36:44]  Dan Runcie: And I know that, as you mentioned, Twitter has been a great space for artists to be able to share things. There's so much. There's so many people in the one three community that are active there, and I think have added to a lot of the discussion and narrative around it. But as someone who's active on Twitter myself, I know how small sometimes those circles can feel. What other platforms or what other areas are you seeing some of these conversations happen, and how long do you think until we're starting to see it not just becoming necessarily a Twitter thing, but it is expanding to more platforms and it's becoming a bit more of. Early majority, at least being able to catch on. [00:37:22] Cooper Turley: I think it'll be Twitter for the foreseeable future. You know, I think that's just where the vast majority of Web three people live. And I think it's actually the one social platform where you can talk about Web three and not get ridiculed for it. You know, I think across nft, TikTok, et cetera, it's very taboo to talk about NFTs, and I don't think that those users are really as tapped into sort of like the valuable aspects of Web three. And so I think for the immediate future, let's call it the next one to two. Twitter, I think is gonna be the source for all of that. And to your point, some of these communities do feel very small, but I think that's actually one of the biggest differences with Web three. You know, I think with traditional marketing platforms, we optimize for impressions, we optimize for plays, for eyeballs, et cetera. On Twitter, if you have 50 people that are consistently showing up to each of your drop, you're doing an amazing job. You know, I think that this is the biggest thing that shows why Web three is valuable is you don't need to have a million monthly listeners to make a couple thousand bucks. If you have 25 people that are willing to come and support you, you can make the same amount of money and have a deeper relationships with those individuals. And so I always say to artists, Even if you're only getting three, five reactions on your tweets every single time, that's very impressive because the benchmark to move the needle and Web three is a lot lower because every individual person is much more active and the quality of those conversations is much higher than what you could expect from a TikTok, Instagram, et cetera. [00:38:36] Dan Runcie: And I think in general, like with those platforms, you're more likely to reach people who are just casually following or passively engaging versus whether if you're already in that audience that's Twitter, you're likely reaching a more active fan base to begin with. And it gets to this whole concept of where can you not just reach followers, but reach people who are actual fans of their music? And a lot of the platforms that have grown tremendously large in the past few. Are much more overindexed on followers and less overindexed or or under indexed rather on true fans. [00:39:08] Cooper Turley: Yeah. And so there's still a lot to be done there. You know, I do believe there's a world in which artists that are using Web three and music NFTs become viral acts that have fans in the traditional sense. I try not to like focus on that too much because there's a lot of work that needs to be done to get there. I think that will happen, but I don't think it's healthy to think. What that looks like today, because frankly, we're just far away from it, you know? And I think for me, helping an artist get a thousand collectors is much more important to me than how do they get 10 million streams on Spotify? You know, if the ladder happens, that's great. But I think the former's actually a lot harder to do because it's a much smaller design space. But, you know, I think there's something really exciting there. And a lot of the work that I do as a collector is really just educating fans on like, why would I wanna collect music? Like, why would I wanna participate on the other side of these? I think from the surface, a lot of bands got really bad experiences with NFTs because artists were just selling random drops that didn't really have any merit to them. They didn't actually care about the output. They were just kind of doing something to be cool at the time. But now what I'm starting to see is that these emerging artists, they really care about their NFTs. They care about them just as much, if not more, than their release strategy on Spotify. And for those demographic of artists. If you are a fan that's looking to sort of develop a brand for yourself around. I believe that this web through music space is a great opportunity to do so. And what we're now seeing is a very small group of music collectors who are building their entire Twitter brand around collecting drops on sound, or writing newsletters or writing mirror posts, et cetera. And I think those are the type of people that I want to try and amplify in Spotlight because it's a very much two-sided marketplace here. And in order for these artists to be successful, you also need to have collectors that are willing to be active in these markets and see success from the music they're collecting as well.  [00:40:42] Dan Runcie: This is one thing that I keep in mind. More broad trends about like what's happening in music, but I also keep it in mind with artists and creators who are trying to expand beyond the folks that they're naturally reaching. Because if you're only going to try to focus on the people that you naturally reach on a regular basis, it, it can work. And I do think that it's kind of like shifting a bit of the psychology, because I think so much of us have been conditioned to just focus. Who is the next person you're gonna reach? What is your customer acquisition cost? It's not just artists, it's the whole industry that's thinking about it this way, but you can build a sustainable business if you are just focused on the pub shot reach. I know it's a bit of that thousand true fans mentality applied to web three, but I think that there's plenty of nuances there. And sometimes it could be less than that. Sometimes it could be more than that. But I think there's some really unique things. One thing. Interested to hear your thoughts on though is just with artists specifically and fans and just the nature of that relationship and whether or not the tokenization of their relationship changes anything. Right. Because I feel like with fans, there's a lot of this conception that because they don't feel like there's nothing that's like financially tying them to them, maybe that brings up, you know, a different relationship than they would if they do feel actually, you know, financially tied to the. Is there any downsides or is there anything that you think of in terms of how that broader tokenization of the relationship changes any of that dynamic or expectations? [00:42:21] Cooper Turley: I definitely think there's downsides, and I think there's a lot of pressure that comes with it. You know, I think for artists that are selling nfts, you need to think about new mechanisms. Like, what is my floor price? What is my volume? Is this asset trading above what I sold it for in the first place? That's a lot of pressure, you know, and that takes a lot of time to get right. I think that over time people are gonna recognize. Collector is getting mad about floor prices. The same as a fan being mad about the type of song that you're releasing, where that's just kind of the name of the game. You know, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it's not like there needs to be a huge reliance on that. I think the one thing the artists need to focus on is actually being consistent with what they're putting out in releasing. If you're giving it your best effort and you're doing things to add value back to early collections, to be able to engage with your community and doing things that show that you're being intentional, that to me matters a lot more than like, what is the price of the tokens themselves, because I think over. We need to recognize that not all fans are the same, and it's not like all music is only gonna exist as NFTs. What's gonna happen is that all these songs are gonna be available on Spotify. If I'm a passive fan, I can go and just listen to that song. There's no expectation for me to ever have a financial relationship with that artist. But the new unlock here is if I wanna go deeper on that relationship. This is something that I've wanted to do for a long time, and I believe many others do. I can now collect something that represents a limited version of that song. And for other people that are excited about that artist's career. Not only can we share on our Instagram story, we can now go into a private collector's chat and say, Hey, I was able to pick up this sold out drop. I was able to pick up one of their early rookie cards, and I think what we start to see is that the fan base gets a little bit more. It's delineated across different verticals where there's some vans who are just showing up to a concert, you know, all the time. I go into GA at a show and I'm like, how do I get these people to buy music and FT use? And the reality is most of them probably never will because they just wanna go and have a good time. They wanna party and forget about their nine to five job. And that's perfectly fine. But I think for the small subset of people who are really passionate about music, those active listeners being able to answer into these more deeper relationships, it's really gonna empower curation in a very new way. And I think the analog I would make here, Sites like Height Machine really drove the success of SoundCloud in a very massive way. You know, there was a demographic of curators who were saying, Hey, we love this type of music. There was all these different blogs, like This song is sick, you know, all these EDM blogs, pigeons and planes, et cetera. They were adding cultural zeitgeist to these songs. And I think the financialization of these assets is not only gonna incentivize people to wanna curate and write about these different article. It's actually gonna give them the means to sustain themselves on the back of doing so. Or if I'm a curator who's really successful at identifying talent, I don't need to go work for a major label as an a and r because I can simply spin up a newsletter on sub stack, go and look at the drop calendar on sound, xyz, and then the event that I'm able to really identify. Successful drops, I can actually start to make a living on the back of my taste. I think that's something that hasn't really existed before and something that I'm personally really excited to see happen more and more in the industry at large. [00:45:08] Dan Runcie: That last piece is huge because it makes me think back to the blog era, especially at hip hop with just. How popular it was when, whether it was sites like Two Dope Boys or Now, right. And their influence on being able to have a mix tape that they're putting out. They're putting their stamp for approval. They're the media channel that's sharing the tape, that's being released from Dap Piff and being like, Hey, here is this new kid Cutty record that you need to listen to a kid named Cutty. You know, this is the mix tape. Check it out. Or the cool kids, or Charles Hamilton or whoever, one of these artists, The difference though, is that even though the artists in the blog era and the people who ran these websites in the blog era were so influential, and I think at a time they even had more influence than the major record labels did. They didn't capture the upside. They created the culture. They created the influence, but they didn't capture the upside. This allows that to happen in a way. The next version of Two Dope Boys could essentially be the one to, like you said, they could start up a newsletter, they could be able to release this and be like, Hey, I'm the one that is putting this investment in and then this is gonna stay there from here on out. That's something that's really special. And to be honest, I don't feel like there's enough discussion around that. So I'm glad you brought that point up. [00:46:26]  Cooper Turley: Absolutely. And I think the one, the one thing I wanna zoom in on there, That doesn't require the artists to sell any of their masters. You know, them putting out 25 editions of a collectible song that a curator can go and buy and then help spread the word about within their pockets. There's no conversation around like, what percentage master publishing does this curator now have? Do I need to bring them into my creative decision, et cetera. It's a new market that now exists on the back of taste and curation, and I think in a lot of ways, music NFTs get pushed back cause they say, oh, you don't actually own the rights. Why do these things have value in the first place? I'm a big believer that community has a lot of value to it. You know, I don't think that art needs utility or needs IP ownership or Masters or publishing to be valuable. I think these curators are able to tell very compelling stories about the impact that music has and being able to add a new market into the equation through music and fts, it really unlocks a new mechanism for artist fandom that I think is very simple to understand. I don't think the average fan will be able. Rationalize what a master or a publishing right looks like. But I think they can understand what a rookie card or what a limited edition of songs looks like. And so I'm very excited to watch these markets mature. And I think that ties back into why the fund is collecting music, NFTs, cuz we believe that. More people are going to be able to understand what it means to own a collectible than they are going to know what it means to own masters or publishing. And so you sort of have these two different sides of the equation. I think they can both work in T and in unison with one another to make the aggregate music market more valuable as a whole. [00:47:51] Dan Runcie: And I think your fun will be a, a test to see how well that works. So, It'll, it'll be, it'll be fascinating. I feel like the structures make sense. You have each day, each piece of it there. I'll be very interested to see what the returns end up being like for each of those categories. Right. Of course, you know, most of the fund is looking at your precede and seed stage music and web three startups, so I assume that it's naturally gonna be what the expectations would be for any young startup. But I'm very interested to see what those expected multiples or the exits will be for the NFTs and then, The artists seed round investments themselves.  [00:48:26] Cooper Turley: Absolutely. I will say that the vast majority of the fund is going into web three companies, but time and time again, people get really excited about this idea of investing in artists. Again, do not have the answers whatsoever, but. I'm noticing people are really excited about that ballpark. So I'm excited to at least start that trend with this first fund here and in the future. I'm hoping that we can create playbooks for many artists who don't even use nft, use their web three to also start to enter in these agreements as well. But you know, I'm really excited about it. You know, like I said, I've been in music for 10 years, crypto for the last five. I feel like this fund is a great way for me to really fuse those two passions together. And it's a very small market right now, but if you made it this far in the episode, I hope that this is something of interest to you and I would love to keep the conversation going if you have more. [00:49:06] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Before we wrap things up and let you go, one of the quotes you had mentioned, you referenced this earlier, the conversation too, that we're not at the point in Music Web three, where Drake is gonna come through and drop an album or a Bieber or a Post Malone or one of those artists. If you had to pick a year that you think that will happen though, what year would you pick? [00:49:26] Cooper Turley: Uh, 2025. Okay. And I think what's gonna happen is that a lot of the biggest artists in the world will just happen to have NFTs under the hood. You know, I don't think it's gonna be like one of those major superstars doing their first drop as NFTs. I think there's like a developing culture of artists right now that are gonna really gain a lot of momentum over the next couple of years. And when they release that major album, you're gonna look back and see that their first songs actually happen to be minted as the collection of 25. A lot of major artists are really excited about this. You know, I spend a lot of my time talking to artists who are currently signed to deals that are saying, Hey, I wanna drop, but I can't because the major label doesn't let me. And I think what's gonna happen is that major labels are gonna wake up to how valuable these early collections can be. And instead of blocking their artists from doing these drops in the first place, they're gonna start to really ramp up and get engaged with them too. So instead of just like, how do we put this album out on Spotify? It's gonna be, how do we develop a relationship with these platforms and onboard our catalog into the. So the biggest thing that I see as a question mark for web three is do we recreate the same systems of Volt? You know, is there going to be a world in which the major labels are just driving the vast majority of NFT sales? I think you're already seeing early examples of this like Warner's partnership with Open Sea, and one thing that I think is really important for us to recognize is that artist independence is very, very valuable. You know, I think that artists owning their own rights and knowing how to run their own companies and run their own business is extremely valuable. And so I'm hopeful that there's a world in. Artists can coexist with labels in a more free form matter. You know, I'm hoping that there's a world where artists can upstream their most viral song to a label, but still retain the rest of their catalog. But I think what's gonna happen over the next year or two is there's going to be. A shuffling of different power dynamics from artists to label relationships. And I think the most forward thinking labels are gonna recognize that it's okay to give up a little bit of control so that an artist can run their business more properly. And if you have 20% of the biggest artists in the world, that's probably more valuable than having 80% of someone who's not really doing much with their career. And so I'm eager and excited to see what those relationships look like and hopefully try and, you know, form some of those early stage relationships along the way. [00:51:41] Dan Runcie: But it's to your point, yeah, they would rather have 20% of that than 80% of the field at this point, so, mm-hmm. , I think we'll see more of that and actually we'll see more of that, not just involving multimedia, but involv. More merging technology. So yeah, it's only a matter of time. 2025 is earlier than I thought you were gonna say, but things move quick, so we'll keep the, we'll keep an eye out for it.Cool. Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. This is great. [00:52:07] Cooper Turley: Thank you, man. I just wanna say, I really appreciate this podcast because you're so well versed when it comes to both the music side, the tech side, and the financial side. I think that it's, Um, difficult for me to find pockets to really talk about the financialization of music. You know, there's a lot of pushback that comes from it, but you know, the way you structured this conversation I think really gives a clear picture of why I'm excited about more of the financialization of music. I think it gives a lot of credence to emerging artists and sort of the way I'm thinking about collecting. So really appreciate you making this happen. I think it was a fantastic episode. I'm excited to share with all my friends. [00:52:37] Dan Runcie: Likewise, no. These are the conversations that need to happen, right? The more that people can talk about it, the more it just gets in the open and the faster things get to where it should be.So thank you for making the time. This is great.  [00:52:49] Cooper Turley: Yeah. The last thing I'll say here in closing, I write a weekly newsletter called This Week in Music, NFTs. If you're interested in any of this conversation, every Monday I publish a short edition that talks about upcoming drops, top stories, bonus read from the community. So if you're looking to get more involved in the web three space, that's where I'd recommend getting started. And then if you are a founder or an artist that's building something and looking for investment, the best place to reach me is via email coop Coop records xyz. But again, thank you so much for having me, man. This was a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate your time. [00:53:18] Dan Runcie: Thank you. And if you're not following him on Twitter and you reactive on Twitter, make sure you do that. What's your Twitter handle? [00:53:23] Cooper Turley: Twitter is at kooopatroopa. Good stuff. Thanks man. Thanks for having me. Cooper Turley, better known as Coopahtroopa, is betting big on ushering a new generation of music. In September, he announced a first-of-its-kind investment fund focused squarely on web3 music projects and artists themselves. Coop Records raised $10 million and Coopah will be the sole general partner. 


He’s hesitant to call it just an investment fund though. That’s because Coop Records is also a record label and incubator. Coopah will invest directly into web3-native music artists in a “seed round” — turning emerging artists into venture-backed startups.


Structuring an artist’s company is what Coopah sees as web3’s biggest opportunity: resetting ownership dynamics. NFTs are another vertical of the Coop Records fund, in addition to the seed-stage investing in both companies and artists.  


Coopah joined me on the show to give us an in-depth look at how Coop Records is eying its investment opportunities. Here’s everything we covered:


[0:00] How Coop Records started

[2:06] Focusing on emerging artists, not established ones 

[3:35] Coop Records’ investment thesis

[7:24] Investing in artists during “seed round”

[9:50] Structuring artists as a holdings company

[11:40] What does an exit look like for artists investors?

[15:00] Artists as CEOs

[20:11] What makes a music NFT historical 

[22:28] NFTs as a replacement for masters and publishing

[27:18] Accredited investors vs. fan investors

[29:30] Artist success stories with community building on web3

[31:40] Focusing on story when marketing NFTs

[34:25] Optimizing for engagement not reach on social 

[39:24] How tokenization changes the artist-fan relationship 

[47:00] Predicting the year that music NFTs go mainstream 

[48:25] Coop’s big question for web3



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Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Cooper Turley, @Cooopahtroopa

 

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TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Cooper Turley: And I think that gets to this artist development piece more broadly is that you're trying to start the process much earlier, much earlier than I think a lot of the major record labels are starting now. Because I think they often wanna see artists having some proven. Track record before they're willing to sign them.

[00:00:24] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Dan Ruey. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. 

[00:00:49] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Cooper Turley, aka Coopa Troopa. He is the founder of Coop Records, which is a new venture fund, a 10 million fund that is focused on investing in the future of music, specifically in web three. He is someone that has made a name for himself as a thought leader in the space. He was involved with the Dow Friends with benefits and he's now started this fund to make economics better for artists and ultimately help them take more advantage of the opportunities that are around them. So we talked about a lot of it. We talked about how he views the space right now, why he started this fund, and what the fund's investing in. There are three main areas that we go into. We talk about investing in music startup. Investing in artist seed rounds and investing in NFTs themselves as an investible assets that him as a general partner and little Bited partners would wanna see returns from. So we talk about what the economics of that look like. I think that. Cooper stands out in a lot of ways because he has a much more nuanced understanding of how Web Three fits in with the broader ecosystem of what's happening right now in music, what some of the trade offs are with the financials, the relationship with fans, what services it offers versus the traditional record labels and more really insightful conversation, and I hope you enjoy it. Here’s our chat.

[00:02:07] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're joined by Coopa Troopa who just launched Coup Records, which is his fund that is investing in the future of music and Web three specifically. And first off, congrats. I saw the announcement, it's really dope. So walk me through the process from thinking about you wanna start this fund to where you are now, today with it.

[00:02:28] Cooper Turley: Absolutely. Well, first of all, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. I've been in music for the last 10 years in crypto for the last five, and so I've seen everything from ICOs to Defi, to Dows, and not most recently NFTs. You know, throughout that time I've been active across public markets as a trader, behind the scenes, as an angel investor, as a community builder, and as an operator. And when I started to think about how to connect all the pieces together, I've always been a fan of music. I felt like there was never really a clear vehicle to help elevate and amplify the space. And so I found coop records to be the best way to really just zoom in on this niche that I'm so excited about and figure out how to really help the founders, artists, and builders that are supporting this space everyday.

[00:03:05] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. What were the conversations like getting buy-in from LPs?

[00:03:10] Cooper Turley: Basically helping to explain what music NFTs are, why this is a vertical that you'd wanna invest in at this time and day? You know, historically I think that music has gotten a bit of a bad rep, cuz it's very antiquated in a lot of ways. You know, there's a lot of systems that are very complicated and hopefully we can unpack some of those on this episode. But, I think we through presents a new opportunity for artists to monetize in creative ways. You know, as someone who's been a curator my whole life, it's very easy for me to understand the value of investing in songs, artists, et cetera. But for someone who's not music savvy and not passionate about this sector, you know, the majority of those conversations are why would anyone wanna collect a song? Why would someone wanna invest in an artist? And trying to help people understand why there's an opportunity here that I think is. Influential and paramount for the next chapter of music. But once people get over that line, you know, I've kind of been able to build a brand for myself that I think speaks very clearly to why I'm so excited about music. And so for investors that are looking to get exposure to the space, coop records is a great way to get that exposure without them having to get as deep in the trenches as I am.

[00:04:07] Dan Runcie: Right. And I gotta imagine that that probably took a few conversations just given things that I'm hearing too, from folks. People, they understand the promise and the opportunity of what NFTs and what web three offer, but there's. Hesitation, there's still perception about what's going on and some of the headlines that people see. How did you communicate or address some of those concerns while still sharing the value add for what you have? 

[00:04:32] Cooper Turley: Yeah, I really focus on emerging artists. You know, I think that this is where the vast majority of value will accrue over the next couple years with Web three. And so when you think about investing in music, most people's mind goes to like, how do we get Drake to drop NFTs? I actually don't really focus on that at all. Instead, I think about how do we develop the next act that becomes Drake using Web three tools? And so for investors that are kind of hesitant about getting involved in the space, I point out early examples like X copier people, you know, crypto artists who really made a brand and a name for themselves on the back of selling their nfts. And obviously in the case of people, he had a major brand before, but it wasn't until the existence of NFTs and sort of these community based assets that they started to see monetization aspects with their fans and with their collectors. And so trying to highlight that there's an opportunity here to develop and support emerging artists new to Web three through music, I think it really made a clear case that. This isn't about trying to get your biggest celebrity to drop NFTs. I think that will happen at some point in time. But this is about investing in the infrastructure and the artists that are going to make this space very valuable over the next couple years.

[00:05:31] Dan Runcie: And one of the things I like too about how your fund is structured or reminds me a bit of Matt Pinkus and how his music fund is structured. It's not just focused solely on startups that are trying to build the next tech platforms. You're also looking more broadly. The NFT space itself and what that opportunity looks like and it'd be great to break each of those down. So let's start first with the music tech companies, cuz I know that's 85% of your fund looking at preceded seed stage companies. What's your thesis for the type of company that is a coop records company that you're looking for? 

[00:06:04] Cooper Turley:  I'm a really big fan of composability. So in Defi there's this concept of money Legos or protocols and platforms that could plug into one another. I believe the same thesis will play out with music, where we're gonna have music legos, where there's different marketplaces, service providers, tooling, infrastructure that can help sort of amplify what an artist can do with Web three. And so when I think about investing in a music tech company, I think about culturally, is this company aware and active within the pocket that I'm spending a lot of my time in? And then beyond being aware of sort of the artists, the songs, the type of platforms that are doing well in this space, do they have the open mindedness to wanna work in collaboration with those other platforms? So in accurate, we can kind of create this toolkit in this stack where if I am an artist who's new to web three, it's not about choosing Spotify versus Apple, it's actually about trying to develop a presence across many platforms. And hopefully those platforms. The life of the artist easier by making everything connect together with one another.

[00:06:56] Dan Runcie: And I feel like this speaks to one of the broader themes that I know you've talked about before, is. It can't be this approach of web three versus web two. These things need to be collaborative. No more zero sum games. How can you think more broadly about the opportunity there? How do you view that more broadly, not just with the fun, but also likely how you're seeing the space with any artist that you're working with too?

[00:07:21] Cooper Turley: I'm really laser focused on web three platforms because I think there's a lot more room for change within those platforms. You know, I have nothing against legacy platforms like Spotify have done fantastic work for artists and I think there will be at a time and day when they're able to enable music, NFTs to be purchased, collected, listened to within their platform. But the reality is these companies are so sophisticated that trying to move the needle is very complicated. And so for someone like. I'm running this fund as a solo gp. It's a relatively small fund, and so when I think about where I can have impact and leverage, it's typically working with very early stage founders. You know, I can get in the trenches and help to develop the product. Think about how we're onboarding artists, think about new marketing strategies. And so for me, I think right now it's about cementing the cultural relevance and value of this emerging wave of Web three music. And once that's been clear and established, we can take those same values, ideas, songs, artists, and help to bring those into the traditional industry in a more clear way. Because right now I think that a lot of the bigger players, let's call it major labels, et cetera, they recognize that there's value to be captured in Web three, but I don't think that they have the same level. Boots on the ground cultural awareness that maybe someone like, um, myself or some of my colleagues have. And so I think the challenge here is a, making it very clear what that culture is so you can start to translate it to larger players. And then once that they agree there is something of value there, you know, being able to act as a connector where you can say, Hey, maybe instead of going and doing a 500,000 or a million dollar drop for the biggest act on your roster, let's go ahead and find an emerging artist who's curious about the space and develop them with the course. Five or $10,000 drops and instead really build that community and that collector base in a very organic way.

[00:08:56] Dan Runcie:  And I think that gets to this artist development piece more broadly is that you're trying to start the process much earlier, much earlier than I think a lot of the major record labels are starting now. Because I think they often wanna see artists having some proven. Track record before they're willing to sign them. And in some ways your approach isn't too much different. Maybe it's just a bit of a different stage because one of the other areas that you're investing in is artist seed rounds. And can you describe. What stage an artist would have to be in order to be at the seed round, and what types of things you're looking for there from an artist?

[00:09:33] Cooper Turley: I think it's very similar to what I look for in companies. You know, has this artist been able to prove a little bit of traction? You know, have they demonstrated that they're culturally aware of where this industry is headed? You know, different things that I feel like are interesting to kind of describe. Cause it's not very concrete. Like you can't point to like a specific amount of sales or a specific amount of volume and say, okay, this artist is ready to be invested in. But it's really just a development process of like, is this person making web three a focal point in their career? I believe that that's something really important for me personally, cuz that's where I had the most leverage. But once they've demonstrated that they've been able to release on some of the bigger web through platforms, you know, once they've been able to collaborate and onboard other artists to the space, you know, you start to see that these people have like a little bit. Leverage was sort of their career. And at that point in time, instead of signing a traditional record deal, co records can really be the one to say like, Hey, let's go ahead and set up a company for you. Let's think about how we wanna do a cap table. Let's bring on some partners to give you the capital that you need to go and hire a team around you. So instead of selling your next three albums to a major label, you can instead fund this through accredited investors. And then over time think about the ways you wanna bring other partners into the fold, but not need to be so reliant on the capital to do that in the first place.

[00:10:38] Dan Runcie: And with the artists specifically, cuz I know that you've started the fund. Maybe for the people listening, is there a particular artist that you have made a seed investment in just so people can get a good idea for, okay, this is someone that we invested in, this is where they're at in their career, and this is what the opportunity is 

[00:10:56] Cooper Turley: Not publicly. I think by the time this comes out, we'll be right around there. You know, I can say that privately, behind the scenes we're working. The first round, you know, we've had some very serious progress on it. Investors are excited about it. We're going through the whole corporate structure, but for me, this is a very different lane because it's not as simple as just investing in the safe note of a precede company. You know, there's a lot more complexity around IP ownership, around revenue sharing around. Kind of how this artist thinks about their company and what kind of rights they're giving back to people. And so it's a slower process, but it's one that's currently in motion. I expect that we'll probably have the first one announced within the next one to two months, but I can definitely say there's one in motion that I'm really excited about. And I think, you know, by the end of this calendar year, we should have that one announced. 

[00:11:37] Dan Runcie: I think part of this too is also the structure of things. You mentioned this earlier, and I think for a lot of artists it's probably. Not necessarily a new way to think about it, because I think in general, artists do think of themselves as having multiple revenue streams, but in order for this to work, in order for you to be able to make an investment, there needs to be some type of, whether it's a holding company or some type of structure in place so that you can make an investment that would touch all of these things. Can you talk a little bit about what that looks like on the artist side?

 [00:12:05] Cooper Turley: Yeah, it's a fantastic question. I wanna start by saying, This is early days and so this is the first stab at it. I think that this model will evolve and change over time. The way we're thinking about it is there's one Hold Co, that represents the artist ownership across their various income streams, uh, that hold co owns subsidiary entities, one of them being a music entity, which owns the masters in publishing for that artist. One being a live entity, which owns touring and merchandising, and then one being a Web three entity, which owns NFTs and. And so all of that wraps up into the larger hold cow. But the reasons those subsidiaries exist is because we wanna limit liability to each of those different vertical. If there's an issue across web three, we don't want that to end up touching the masters. If an artist wants to go and sign a record deal, they shouldn't have to figure out what to do with their touring or what their NFTs to be able to enter into agreement with a different party. And so we've kind of split up the different verticals into buckets that make sense relative to the type of partners and the type of work that it is. But all of that rounds back up into this holding company and when it comes time to invest in the artist, quote unquote, that artist is selling anywhere from five to 10% of that hold cow to accredited investors so that they can have exposure and pass through to those underlying revenue streams. But there's not this sort of majority ownership, creative control, et cetera. It's really, here's capital and exchange for you to go do what you do best. In exchange for that, we have exposure to these underlying entities, which represent the artist brand in its entirety.

[00:13:27] Dan Runcie: And for an investor like you, I think most people listening have a good idea of what an exit looks like for a startup, but what does an exit look like for you as an investor, for an artist, if you're going in at that seed round?

[00:13:39] Cooper Turley: I think there's a couple ways it can pan out. You know, one I think would be IP acquisition. Let's say that there's a buyout of someone's masters or publishing, et cetera. You know, there's kind of larger capital inflections that can happen later down an artist's career. I'm more excited about this idea of taking artists public cuz it's something that hasn't really been done before, but I think will happen eventually. Where right now, if you're a fan, you can't really invest or bet on an artist. I think we're starting to see us at a very granular level with music NFTs, and it's something I would love to cover as the last bucket next, but to me, I think an exit here is helping an artist really take this company that we structure for themselves and explore what it means to go public. And so rather than only accredited investors being able to buy into that five or 10%, how do you invite fans to participate in that convers. I think that there's a lot of, uh, legal nuance there that needs to be figured out. And so I don't have that answer today, but I would say that more broadly, the two ways that this could happen is a, investors are seeing a return from the IP becoming more valuable, and they're being capital injected into the whole co. Or B, more optimistically the artist, quote unquote, going public by either, you know, listing on a traditional market or what I think is more likely is creating some form of a token, which represents exposure to this entity that's been set up to represent the artist brand in the first.

[00:14:49] Dan Runcie: Got it. And then from a structure perspective, do you ever hear any type of pushback or comments from artists who feel like, oh, you're getting a slice of all these revenue deals. This feels similar to a 360 deal. Do you hear any of that at all?

[00:15:04] Cooper Turley:  Yeah, I mean, it is a 360 deal, and I think that that's really important to like zoom in on, because 360 deals have gotten a really negative rep because of the percentage ownership that they typically encompass. So traditionally with 360 deals, it's anywhere from 50 to 80. When we talk about a 360 deal in this context, it's five or 10%. And if you start to look at the way that companies take on dilution and precede and seed stage rounds, it's kind of the same concept. You know, like that company is basically taking all of their revenue into this central entity and they're selling off dilution to investors. And so I think for artists, this is particularly scary because there's been such a history of people taking advantage of 360. But I don't think the structure with 360 deals incorrect. I just think the ownership targets that those deals are typically set at is what's really predatory. And so if we can zoom out a bit and instead say, Hey, five or 10% can give you a couple hundred grand, maybe a million dollars to go invest in a team around you, there's ways for that capital to be really value added where the dilution is actually necessary and valuable because it helps you advance your artist career in a way that you simply couldn't do without it.

[00:16:04] Dan Runcie: I agree with that. I think that that's, Testament of some of the challenges with the broader major record label system as well, right? It's not that people shouldn't be willing to trade some level of ownership in exchange to get a boost from the company. It's how much ownership, it's what the terms that the actual economics look like, not the economic agreement itself.

[00:16:28] Cooper Turley: Yeah, it's correct. And I think that it's something that is really important to help educate artists on. And this is the area that I'm actually most fascinated by is like artists really thinking about rights ownership, thinking about dilution, thinking about cap table management. And just with that in mind, I wanna highlight, it's a very specific type of artist that is willing to enter into this quote unquote, artists seed round. Because I think that most artists are not thinking about their brand as a ceo, but I think there are very selective artists who think about their entity as a business and for those specific artists being able to demonst. There's value in having employees. There's value in giving them long term options and equity, and having these ownership incentives be a little bit more aligned. I think traditionally music has existed in this weird ballpark where we've basically only ever sold masters in publishing. We haven't really experimented with equity or any of these other ownership vehicles that startups have been taking for the last couple generations, so I'm excited to explore it. You know, I by no means have all the answers, but I think. My time investing in precede and seed stage companies has given me a little bit of context on how things work behind the scenes, and I'm hoping that with a little time and effort, we can sort of mold those same practices and help apply them to artists more broadly.

[00:17:34] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I have to imagine too, with artists as well, there's some artists that love the mentality of being the business person themself that can be the CEO and wear multiple hats. There's other artists who I. As much as they want the business to work for them, they just wanna focus on the art. So there's specific things that you're looking for to determine, okay, is this artist gonna be wanting to be the ceo? Or maybe making sure that they are partnered with someone that may wanna be in that role instead

[00:18:05] Cooper Turley: Yeah, I mean, you just touched on it perfectly. I think that there's situations where artists have partners that are acting as their ceo, you know, and in many typical startups you have a ceo, a cto, a ceo, et cetera. Um, the artist isn't the only person that's responsible for their success. They're obviously the largest player in that. But it's less about, is this artist capable of being a ceo? It's more about is this artist capable of building a team around them that can. In tandem as a unit and as an organization. And if that artist is uncapable of operating as the CEO, because they're phenomenal at making music, it's very likely that there may be a manager, an agent, a business partner, et cetera, that could step into that role. And I think the biggest thing that I'm excited about is to realign incentives around the service providers around an artist. So whether that be a manager, an agent, a business manager, a lawyer, et cetera. Typically, all these actors are just operating on commission, you know, and they have five or 10 clients because there's no guarantee that they'll be with that artist in 10 years time. You know, these contracts aren't really a center aligned for those key players. But if we can instead start to create an instrument where a managers may be able to take a salary and then have equity that's vested over four years, I think there will be more situations where artists would be willing to enter into a full-time quote unquote agreement with their manager, because that a manager is now incentive aligned to actually spend all their time developing one. Instead of needing to commission off of five or 10 different artists just to be able to make a living.

[00:19:24] Dan Runcie: It's a huge point because there's so many managers I've talked to that just talk about how thankless that job is, and that's purely just from how they're treated, not even getting to the economic aspect. You start thinking about the economics about how managers are treated and yeah, maybe you'll get 10 to 15 to 20%, but if that artist levels up and then they wanna level up their manager too, they can just be like, Hey, sorry, I wanna move on. And you, the person that brought them from zero to 40. Now you have nothing. Right?

[00:19:54] Cooper Turley: Yeah. I mean, it happens time and time again from smaller artists to the biggest acts in the world. I mean, I don't have to name names here, but I think we all know examples of this happening time and time. And it's really just a game of incentive alignment. You know? And when I think about the term web three, to me that means ownership. And so for all of these different deals that I'm doing, it's about how do you create ownership incentives so that everyone who's contributing value to this entity is able to capture that in some way, shape, or form. And so I think it's a very difficult conversation to tell a manager, Hey, instead of taking a 15 or a 20% commission, you're gonna get a base salary and then have a couple equity percentage points that best over multiple years. But when you start to zoom out a bit, you start to see like, hey, maybe 1% of equity can actually be more valuable than 20% commission. Because if you're operating a multi-million or multi-billion dollar business, you know that's a life-changing amount of money. And so I don't expect this is something that's gonna happen in the short term. I think it's gonna take a very new class of partners, managers, agents, et cetera, that are willing to enter into these type of. Situations and these type of organizations. But I'm very excited to work with the emerging class of talent that's willing to try something out a little bit differently because I think that new class of talent is looking for an opportunity here. And I think that we've seen time and time again that the systems that exist today work, but I think that there's a lot of room for improvement and I'm excited to use some of the artists that we're working with help push the needle on what that could like. 

[00:21:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think the other point that you mentioned too, was aligned as well, just in terms of artists being able to have that team around them. We've seen so many examples where whether it's Jay-Z, having someone like a Dame Dash next to him, or you have Jay Cole and e Bama, they've been working together for years. Kate, uh, Kendrick Lamar, and the whole Top Dog team. These artists are doing it themselves, and oftentimes the ones that try to get stuck, so no different then. Yeah, a startup, if you're trying to raise money, they're gonna push back. If you have the technical co-founder being the same one that's trying to go raise money, right? Like you need to have some expansion there. So I think so much of that makes sense. I do wanna talk about the other piece that you mentioned though, the NFT piece of it, because the way that you're investing in these, I think could be eyeopening to some of the folks listening because you're looking. And I heard you referred to historic NFT opportunities and NFTs as collectables. Can you talk a little bit about what you're looking for if you're investing in NFTs through this fund and how that may separate from what a lot of people may assume when they think about an nft. 

[00:22:18] Cooper Turley: Yeah, so there's a really amazing market of songs that are being released as collectibles right now. You know, there's platforms like Sound xyz, where every day an artist is releasing a song with 25 editions as NFTs. And I've been really active across these markets for the course of the last two years. Personally, you know, biggest collector on Sound today, one of the biggest collectors on catalog. And I'm really excited about being able to collect these early songs from artists that are building in Web three. You know, the analog I'd make here. Music, rookie cards. You know, we have rookie cards for basketball players, for baseball players, et cetera. We don't really have rookie cards for artists, and I think in a lot of ways these early music NFTs are sort of the equivalent of an artist rookie card. And so personally, I've been doing this for the last couple years. I recently just put out a post called the Music NFT Collector Thesis. This is how we're thinking about collecting from the fund. But to really break it down, we're thinking about how do we sort of acquire early NFTs that represent historical relevance of this. Web three and Music NFTs have been around for maybe a year at this point. I think that there's a huge opportunity for fans to start getting involved by collecting the songs that they love and for the fund. I almost look at music NFTs as the new form of like masters and publishing. You know, it's not quite one to one, but there's almost this new market being formed of Tradeable assets that you can buy for something like 50 bucks when it drops, and then hopefully have the ability to resell at a later. And I think for the fund, you know, us being able to participate in these markets and say, Hey, we are aware of what's happening on the ground floor with the next generation of developing artists, we're actively collecting these songs that we can show that were there from them, beyond needing to set up a company and needing to do some crazy type of investment situation. And I'm really excited about the opportunity just to have. Ownership over some of these really early collectibles, cuz I think they're very historic in the development of these artists' careers and I believe they're extremely valuable and will continue to demonstrate. So in the years to come. 

[00:24:03] Dan Runcie: You brought up an interesting point just about how you feel like NFTs could replace what we are naturally thinking about masters in publishing. I guess in terms of how artists are monetizing and what their ownership looks like. Can you talk a little bit more about that and specifically how that could look or what that could look like? Years down the road.

[00:24:23] Cooper Turley: I mean, I'll start by saying that, um, masters in publishing are extremely valuable. You know, I think that this is a system that has worked for generations. There's a huge trend around catalog acquisition. I think that will continue to exist for many, many years to come. I think for someone like myself, me trying to get in the catalog acquisition game is not a smart move. You know, there's a lot of players with a lot more experience. There's a lot of people with a lot more money. The one unique advantage that I do have though, is developing thesises within this small pocket of web three artists, and the best way to get exposure to them is to simply buy their nf. You know the way that this looks is if there's the first song an artist ever released their artist rookie card, and there's 25 additions of that being sold for 50 bucks. If you zoom out and one of these artists becomes the Weekend, Drake Post Malone, Jack Harla, whatever it might be, there's a very high likelihood that those early additions are gonna be worth a lot more than $50. And so instead of trying to invest in the masters in publishing rights, those songs can also go on Spotify. They can stream extremely well. You can have relationships with major label. But I believe those early collectibles have a market of their own. These markets are not tied to any sort of royalty rights because it's just collectibles. You know, there's 25 additions of this digital vinyl. I can buy it for $50 and then sell it for whatever price I want in the future. And I think this is a market that not many people are paying attention to right now. But I think when it comes to new and creative revenue streams for artists, I think that collectibles are gonna be a very, very big market in the years to come. I think it's the most clear way that fans can start to get involved with sort of, Collectible nature of getting involved with an artist and as a fun, I think we're really excited to be participating here to say, Hey, we're really excited about this. I think there's some really amazing plays out there right now, and we're gonna continue to support artists on the ground floor to help develop this thesis. 

[00:25:59] Dan Runcie: Why do you think that a lot of people aren't paying attention? Or what do you think some of the, if there's friction or if there is just in a bit of a natural adoption curve, like what do you think's going.

[00:26:12] Cooper Turley: It's just new. I mean, this entire market has only been around for a little bit more than a year at this point. You know, in total, I think we have less than a thousand artists that have ever minted a music NFT before. There's probably less than 10,000 people ever collected one before, and so. Relatively speaking, it's just a very new and small market. And I think for a lot of players that have bigger fish to fry, it's probably not worth their time to invest buying records for $50 because they have multimillion dollar record deals in place. You know, and so for someone like myself, um, a lot of what I do is help educate artists that there's a lot of value to be captured in web through right now based on how early it is. You know, I think that there's a lot of unlearning that can be done with the way artists are releasing music in Web three. And so traditionally, when you're putting out a song on Spotify, most artists I know here in. They'll take eight weeks in advance to think about what distributor am I gonna put this out through? Am I gonna sign this to a label? What's my advance? What's my marketing rollout? What's my TikTok campaign? How am I getting pre saves? How am I making the music video? And what I've been preaching is like, Hey, if you have a song, you should put that out tomorrow. You know, like there's people out there that would probably wanna collect that record. And if you can 5 25 people to come and collect music in FT for 0.05 E, they're basically $75. That's the equivalent of half a million streams. And so I think trying to teach people that you don't need to have this giant rollout process to make this headline moment with music. We've gotten really conditioned to trying to shoot for the new Music Friday playlist. You know, all of these emerging editorial playlists. One of the beautiful things about the SoundCloud era was people were just uploading music in real time and if you had your finger on the trigger, you could go and just repost something and be part of a wider movement. And I think what's happening with music and FTS now is artists are gonna start to see that you don't need to have a six week rollout to put out a collection of 25 songs. If you make that song on Wednesday and put it out on Thursday, you can immediately get funding from your biggest fans and use that funding to go and market the rest of your career and instead be able to obviscate the need for a lot of those major capital advances that typically get artists caught up in a weird position in the first place.

[00:29:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like if the funding's in place and you can replace early on, because I think for a lot of artists, the economics don't really work out either. Unless A, you own the underlying masters in publishing to begin, so you're just bringing on a. You know, revenue per stream or just general from what you're getting from streaming or on the other side, you're just massive, like Drake or someone like that. And your billions of streams per year brings in plenty of money. But for a lot of other artists, it ends up being either A, a loss leader if you're focusing solely on streaming or a, or you're leaving money on the table some type of way. So I feel like that approach is something that makes sense for a bunch of. On the investing side though, I have a few questions on this, but the first one, on the investing side though, how do you feel like the appetite will be for, let's say an artist does have early investors, the likelihood for those investors to be folks who are accredited, folks that just wanna be able to get a return, versus people who are actual fans of that artist. Any thoughts on what that mix may look like for the average artist that's going through the web? Growth cycle and the rep do growth curve?

[00:30:19] Cooper Turley: Yeah. I mean, I can speak on this from the artist seed round that we're doing right now. Every investor in that round has been an active collector of this artist for many, many months. Prior to that, they all have personal relationships with the artist. You know, they may be an accredited investor, but they're not just bringing capital. They've been active and supportive of this artist's career way before the seed round even started. And so I think if we zoom out, there will definitely be situations. Investors just want to put in a couple hundred grand and not really worry about getting involved on the ground floor. But given how early it is right now, most of the investors who are interested in participating in these capital markets are ones who want exposure to both NFTs and to the artist equity. And so I think that over time, collectors to me are a little bit closer to like early investors. Think about them like almost angels or sort of like seed round investors. Over time, collectors will start to mirror more fan behavior. But I think for right now, a lot of the collectors I know, they're just excited to get exposure to an artist's career and to go and support them more so than they are to really go to their show or to buy their merchandise, et cetera. And I think that's where a lot of the pushback comes for web through music is like, oh, these people aren't actually fans. They're just, you know, buying NFTs. But if you zoom into what that means, it's almost a different form of fandom where they're providing capital to be able to have exposure to an artist's career. And their expectations are a lot less on the fan side. I need you to collaborate with this artist. I want you to put out this type of music. It's more so like, Hey, we just wanna support you and your career however we can. Because the more that you're able to identify your vision and create a brand around it, the more valuable our NFTs are going to become. And so it's a very mutual relationship I think hasn't really existed in music in the past.

[00:31:50] Dan Runcie: You're really getting at this aspect of community and how artists can foster that, how they can build around them. We've seen the power of that in the SoundCloud era, so we've seen a lot of these things happening and what streaming in general has enabled to happen. What are some of the success stories that stand out to you when you're thinking about artists to be like, oh yeah, they've nailed community, or they're nailing community, like that's how you do it.

[00:32:13] Cooper Turley: Yeah. I would say a couple artists to check out. Daniel Allen, I think has done a fantastic job of this in the web three space. Latasha who started something called Zora Topia has done a fantastic job at this Early nft. Artists like Matt Cha os. Grady bloody white. I mean, the list goes on and on, but basically you see. The small pocket of artists that are really making web through a centerpiece for their career, and they're leveraging that into creating more community conversation. Where typically all these artists have a collector chat where once you've bought a music nft, you can get into a private chat with that artist. It's typically 20 people, 25 people, and that artist is in there every day saying like, Hey, what do you guys think about this demo? Hey, I'm thinking about dropping a song next week. Which one do you like more? What do you think I should do for the supply? Do you think we should do an airdrop? And that conversation is a lot more interactive. And I think in a lot of ways artists have typically maintained separation from their fans to kind of uphold this like form of mystery and this like storytelling aspect. But what I'm seeing now is that collectors are getting really close to the artists that they know and love, and those artists are realizing that for a very specific demographic of their audience, they can be very value added, asked the right questions. And so instead of just doing a meet and greet or doing like, you know, 50 people standing in line to say hi, back to back for an hour and a half, it's like, hey, if we wanna have a valuable conversation about the future of my career, These other people that I can turn to, cause I know they have exposure to my brand and they actually typically have experience That's very valuable and it's something that I think is gonna happen more and more with the next generation of collectors to come.

[00:33:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's a good way to just think about the framing of it, right? Meet and greets can be great, but it's so transactional. It is really isn't an opportunity. And it kind of has a bit of this like hierarchical thing. Like, oh, I paid $500 extra at this concert to like take a picture with you. Versus no, like if you've really been with this person, then how can you help shape that in the same way that someone that was really early on can? So I feel like there's so many principles there and there's so much that aligns with, especially on the financial side. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the marketing side of it, because I know that's a piece that a lot of artists have had questions about, but I also think that we've seen from. Project specifically with Web three projects like outside of music where whether it is the creator themselves who's been able to market or get the word out effectively, or they've been able to just find ways to build their distribution themselves. What are some of the ways that you've seen artists who've been successful on the Web three Path have been able to replicate, or at least make up for some of the marketing that they would get from a major record label, but otherwise they're recreating on their own.

[00:34:47] Cooper Turley: I think it starts from the story, you know, like first of all, what is the music that you're releasing and what is the story behind that? But more importantly, like what is the narrative with how you're using the technology? And so almost fusing together like the creative side with the tech side, you know, whether this be something as simple as like creating your own artist website where people are mentioning s from, or it's something like, hey, we're using on chain splits to reward and compensate. 15 different contributors, five of which didn't touch the music, but were helpful in the development or the project management or the visual assets, et cetera. You know, I think there's new creative channels to help bring more people into the table, but I would say generally Twitter is kind of the main resource for all web three artists. You know, the ones that I see doing really well are typically putting out tweet storms, talking a lot about the drops that they're doing, why they're doing it, and how they're doing it. I see a lot of artists doing these sort of collector chats and more private investor relationships. If they have a bigger release coming out, it's not only about posting the tweetstorm, it's also about going and finding time to talk to some of your bigger collectors one on one and being like, Hey, what do you think about this? How can I get you involved? What are some feedback you would have on this drop? Are you excited or not excited? And I think typically with music, traditionally, how it's released, Artist makes a song, they have their internal team, and then they put it out to the world. And when it's out to the world, everyone forms an opinion on it. With Web three music, a lot of the time, there's a lot more happening behind the scenes before the release actually comes out, so that when it is time for one of these releases to happen, you start to see these things sell out because there was a lot of work put into the record before it came out, and that's not untraditional from typical music, but I think the difference there. Active conversations with your collectors is very new. You know, typically it's like people around a table at a major label that are talking about like, how are we gonna market on TikTok? But this is different because it's going and having very direct conversations with the people that are supporting you the most. And in aggregate that sort of. Neural net of all these different people talking about your drop in tandem. It creates this sort of network effect where when it does come out, there's almost a rippling effect that helps to make the drop become more successful. And I think that's something that I'm seeing being replicated time and time again.

[00:36:44]  Dan Runcie: And I know that, as you mentioned, Twitter has been a great space for artists to be able to share things. There's so much. There's so many people in the one three community that are active there, and I think have added to a lot of the discussion and narrative around it. But as someone who's active on Twitter myself, I know how small sometimes those circles can feel. What other platforms or what other areas are you seeing some of these conversations happen, and how long do you think until we're starting to see it not just becoming necessarily a Twitter thing, but it is expanding to more platforms and it's becoming a bit more of. Early majority, at least being able to catch on.

[00:37:22] Cooper Turley: I think it'll be Twitter for the foreseeable future. You know, I think that's just where the vast majority of Web three people live. And I think it's actually the one social platform where you can talk about Web three and not get ridiculed for it. You know, I think across nft, TikTok, et cetera, it's very taboo to talk about NFTs, and I don't think that those users are really as tapped into sort of like the valuable aspects of Web three. And so I think for the immediate future, let's call it the next one to two. Twitter, I think is gonna be the source for all of that. And to your point, some of these communities do feel very small, but I think that's actually one of the biggest differences with Web three. You know, I think with traditional marketing platforms, we optimize for impressions, we optimize for plays, for eyeballs, et cetera. On Twitter, if you have 50 people that are consistently showing up to each of your drop, you're doing an amazing job. You know, I think that this is the biggest thing that shows why Web three is valuable is you don't need to have a million monthly listeners to make a couple thousand bucks. If you have 25 people that are willing to come and support you, you can make the same amount of money and have a deeper relationships with those individuals. And so I always say to artists, Even if you're only getting three, five reactions on your tweets every single time, that's very impressive because the benchmark to move the needle and Web three is a lot lower because every individual person is much more active and the quality of those conversations is much higher than what you could expect from a TikTok, Instagram, et cetera.

[00:38:36] Dan Runcie: And I think in general, like with those platforms, you're more likely to reach people who are just casually following or passively engaging versus whether if you're already in that audience that's Twitter, you're likely reaching a more active fan base to begin with. And it gets to this whole concept of where can you not just reach followers, but reach people who are actual fans of their music? And a lot of the platforms that have grown tremendously large in the past few. Are much more overindexed on followers and less overindexed or or under indexed rather on true fans.

[00:39:08] Cooper Turley: Yeah. And so there's still a lot to be done there. You know, I do believe there's a world in which artists that are using Web three and music NFTs become viral acts that have fans in the traditional sense. I try not to like focus on that too much because there's a lot of work that needs to be done to get there. I think that will happen, but I don't think it's healthy to think. What that looks like today, because frankly, we're just far away from it, you know? And I think for me, helping an artist get a thousand collectors is much more important to me than how do they get 10 million streams on Spotify? You know, if the ladder happens, that's great. But I think the former's actually a lot harder to do because it's a much smaller design space. But, you know, I think there's something really exciting there. And a lot of the work that I do as a collector is really just educating fans on like, why would I wanna collect music? Like, why would I wanna participate on the other side of these? I think from the surface, a lot of bands got really bad experiences with NFTs because artists were just selling random drops that didn't really have any merit to them. They didn't actually care about the output. They were just kind of doing something to be cool at the time. But now what I'm starting to see is that these emerging artists, they really care about their NFTs. They care about them just as much, if not more, than their release strategy on Spotify. And for those demographic of artists. If you are a fan that's looking to sort of develop a brand for yourself around. I believe that this web through music space is a great opportunity to do so. And what we're now seeing is a very small group of music collectors who are building their entire Twitter brand around collecting drops on sound, or writing newsletters or writing mirror posts, et cetera. And I think those are the type of people that I want to try and amplify in Spotlight because it's a very much two-sided marketplace here. And in order for these artists to be successful, you also need to have collectors that are willing to be active in these markets and see success from the music they're collecting as well. 

[00:40:42] Dan Runcie: This is one thing that I keep in mind. More broad trends about like what's happening in music, but I also keep it in mind with artists and creators who are trying to expand beyond the folks that they're naturally reaching. Because if you're only going to try to focus on the people that you naturally reach on a regular basis, it, it can work. And I do think that it's kind of like shifting a bit of the psychology, because I think so much of us have been conditioned to just focus. Who is the next person you're gonna reach? What is your customer acquisition cost? It's not just artists, it's the whole industry that's thinking about it this way, but you can build a sustainable business if you are just focused on the pub shot reach. I know it's a bit of that thousand true fans mentality applied to web three, but I think that there's plenty of nuances there. And sometimes it could be less than that. Sometimes it could be more than that. But I think there's some really unique things. One thing. Interested to hear your thoughts on though is just with artists specifically and fans and just the nature of that relationship and whether or not the tokenization of their relationship changes anything. Right. Because I feel like with fans, there's a lot of this conception that because they don't feel like there's nothing that's like financially tying them to them, maybe that brings up, you know, a different relationship than they would if they do feel actually, you know, financially tied to the. Is there any downsides or is there anything that you think of in terms of how that broader tokenization of the relationship changes any of that dynamic or expectations?

[00:42:21] Cooper Turley: I definitely think there's downsides, and I think there's a lot of pressure that comes with it. You know, I think for artists that are selling nfts, you need to think about new mechanisms. Like, what is my floor price? What is my volume? Is this asset trading above what I sold it for in the first place? That's a lot of pressure, you know, and that takes a lot of time to get right. I think that over time people are gonna recognize. Collector is getting mad about floor prices. The same as a fan being mad about the type of song that you're releasing, where that's just kind of the name of the game. You know, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it's not like there needs to be a huge reliance on that. I think the one thing the artists need to focus on is actually being consistent with what they're putting out in releasing. If you're giving it your best effort and you're doing things to add value back to early collections, to be able to engage with your community and doing things that show that you're being intentional, that to me matters a lot more than like, what is the price of the tokens themselves, because I think over. We need to recognize that not all fans are the same, and it's not like all music is only gonna exist as NFTs. What's gonna happen is that all these songs are gonna be available on Spotify. If I'm a passive fan, I can go and just listen to that song. There's no expectation for me to ever have a financial relationship with that artist. But the new unlock here is if I wanna go deeper on that relationship. This is something that I've wanted to do for a long time, and I believe many others do. I can now collect something that represents a limited version of that song. And for other people that are excited about that artist's career. Not only can we share on our Instagram story, we can now go into a private collector's chat and say, Hey, I was able to pick up this sold out drop. I was able to pick up one of their early rookie cards, and I think what we start to see is that the fan base gets a little bit more. It's delineated across different verticals where there's some vans who are just showing up to a concert, you know, all the time. I go into GA at a show and I'm like, how do I get these people to buy music and FT use? And the reality is most of them probably never will because they just wanna go and have a good time. They wanna party and forget about their nine to five job. And that's perfectly fine. But I think for the small subset of people who are really passionate about music, those active listeners being able to answer into these more deeper relationships, it's really gonna empower curation in a very new way. And I think the analog I would make here, Sites like Height Machine really drove the success of SoundCloud in a very massive way. You know, there was a demographic of curators who were saying, Hey, we love this type of music. There was all these different blogs, like This song is sick, you know, all these EDM blogs, pigeons and planes, et cetera. They were adding cultural zeitgeist to these songs. And I think the financialization of these assets is not only gonna incentivize people to wanna curate and write about these different article. It's actually gonna give them the means to sustain themselves on the back of doing so. Or if I'm a curator who's really successful at identifying talent, I don't need to go work for a major label as an a and r because I can simply spin up a newsletter on sub stack, go and look at the drop calendar on sound, xyz, and then the event that I'm able to really identify. Successful drops, I can actually start to make a living on the back of my taste. I think that's something that hasn't really existed before and something that I'm personally really excited to see happen more and more in the industry at large.

[00:45:08] Dan Runcie: That last piece is huge because it makes me think back to the blog era, especially at hip hop with just. How popular it was when, whether it was sites like Two Dope Boys or Now, right. And their influence on being able to have a mix tape that they're putting out. They're putting their stamp for approval. They're the media channel that's sharing the tape, that's being released from Dap Piff and being like, Hey, here is this new kid Cutty record that you need to listen to a kid named Cutty. You know, this is the mix tape. Check it out. Or the cool kids, or Charles Hamilton or whoever, one of these artists, The difference though, is that even though the artists in the blog era and the people who ran these websites in the blog era were so influential, and I think at a time they even had more influence than the major record labels did. They didn't capture the upside. They created the culture. They created the influence, but they didn't capture the upside. This allows that to happen in a way. The next version of Two Dope Boys could essentially be the one to, like you said, they could start up a newsletter, they could be able to release this and be like, Hey, I'm the one that is putting this investment in and then this is gonna stay there from here on out. That's something that's really special. And to be honest, I don't feel like there's enough discussion around that. So I'm glad you brought that point up.

[00:46:26]  Cooper Turley: Absolutely. And I think the one, the one thing I wanna zoom in on there, That doesn't require the artists to sell any of their masters. You know, them putting out 25 editions of a collectible song that a curator can go and buy and then help spread the word about within their pockets. There's no conversation around like, what percentage master publishing does this curator now have? Do I need to bring them into my creative decision, et cetera. It's a new market that now exists on the back of taste and curation, and I think in a lot of ways, music NFTs get pushed back cause they say, oh, you don't actually own the rights. Why do these things have value in the first place? I'm a big believer that community has a lot of value to it. You know, I don't think that art needs utility or needs IP ownership or Masters or publishing to be valuable. I think these curators are able to tell very compelling stories about the impact that music has and being able to add a new market into the equation through music and fts, it really unlocks a new mechanism for artist fandom that I think is very simple to understand. I don't think the average fan will be able. Rationalize what a master or a publishing right looks like. But I think they can understand what a rookie card or what a limited edition of songs looks like. And so I'm very excited to watch these markets mature. And I think that ties back into why the fund is collecting music, NFTs, cuz we believe that. More people are going to be able to understand what it means to own a collectible than they are going to know what it means to own masters or publishing. And so you sort of have these two different sides of the equation. I think they can both work in T and in unison with one another to make the aggregate music market more valuable as a whole.

[00:47:51] Dan Runcie: And I think your fun will be a, a test to see how well that works. So, It'll, it'll be, it'll be fascinating. I feel like the structures make sense. You have each day, each piece of it there. I'll be very interested to see what the returns end up being like for each of those categories. Right. Of course, you know, most of the fund is looking at your precede and seed stage music and web three startups, so I assume that it's naturally gonna be what the expectations would be for any young startup. But I'm very interested to see what those expected multiples or the exits will be for the NFTs and then, The artists seed round investments themselves. 

[00:48:26] Cooper Turley: Absolutely. I will say that the vast majority of the fund is going into web three companies, but time and time again, people get really excited about this idea of investing in artists. Again, do not have the answers whatsoever, but. I'm noticing people are really excited about that ballpark. So I'm excited to at least start that trend with this first fund here and in the future. I'm hoping that we can create playbooks for many artists who don't even use nft, use their web three to also start to enter in these agreements as well. But you know, I'm really excited about it. You know, like I said, I've been in music for 10 years, crypto for the last five. I feel like this fund is a great way for me to really fuse those two passions together. And it's a very small market right now, but if you made it this far in the episode, I hope that this is something of interest to you and I would love to keep the conversation going if you have more.

[00:49:06] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Before we wrap things up and let you go, one of the quotes you had mentioned, you referenced this earlier, the conversation too, that we're not at the point in Music Web three, where Drake is gonna come through and drop an album or a Bieber or a Post Malone or one of those artists. If you had to pick a year that you think that will happen though, what year would you pick?

[00:49:26] Cooper Turley: Uh, 2025. Okay. And I think what's gonna happen is that a lot of the biggest artists in the world will just happen to have NFTs under the hood. You know, I don't think it's gonna be like one of those major superstars doing their first drop as NFTs. I think there's like a developing culture of artists right now that are gonna really gain a lot of momentum over the next couple of years. And when they release that major album, you're gonna look back and see that their first songs actually happen to be minted as the collection of 25. A lot of major artists are really excited about this. You know, I spend a lot of my time talking to artists who are currently signed to deals that are saying, Hey, I wanna drop, but I can't because the major label doesn't let me. And I think what's gonna happen is that major labels are gonna wake up to how valuable these early collections can be. And instead of blocking their artists from doing these drops in the first place, they're gonna start to really ramp up and get engaged with them too. So instead of just like, how do we put this album out on Spotify? It's gonna be, how do we develop a relationship with these platforms and onboard our catalog into the. So the biggest thing that I see as a question mark for web three is do we recreate the same systems of Volt? You know, is there going to be a world in which the major labels are just driving the vast majority of NFT sales? I think you're already seeing early examples of this like Warner's partnership with Open Sea, and one thing that I think is really important for us to recognize is that artist independence is very, very valuable. You know, I think that artists owning their own rights and knowing how to run their own companies and run their own business is extremely valuable. And so I'm hopeful that there's a world in. Artists can coexist with labels in a more free form matter. You know, I'm hoping that there's a world where artists can upstream their most viral song to a label, but still retain the rest of their catalog. But I think what's gonna happen over the next year or two is there's going to be. A shuffling of different power dynamics from artists to label relationships. And I think the most forward thinking labels are gonna recognize that it's okay to give up a little bit of control so that an artist can run their business more properly. And if you have 20% of the biggest artists in the world, that's probably more valuable than having 80% of someone who's not really doing much with their career. And so I'm eager and excited to see what those relationships look like and hopefully try and, you know, form some of those early stage relationships along the way.

[00:51:41] Dan Runcie: But it's to your point, yeah, they would rather have 20% of that than 80% of the field at this point, so, mm-hmm. , I think we'll see more of that and actually we'll see more of that, not just involving multimedia, but involv. More merging technology. So yeah, it's only a matter of time. 2025 is earlier than I thought you were gonna say, but things move quick, so we'll keep the, we'll keep an eye out for it.Cool. Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. This is great.

[00:52:07] Cooper Turley: Thank you, man. I just wanna say, I really appreciate this podcast because you're so well versed when it comes to both the music side, the tech side, and the financial side. I think that it's, Um, difficult for me to find pockets to really talk about the financialization of music. You know, there's a lot of pushback that comes from it, but you know, the way you structured this conversation I think really gives a clear picture of why I'm excited about more of the financialization of music. I think it gives a lot of credence to emerging artists and sort of the way I'm thinking about collecting. So really appreciate you making this happen. I think it was a fantastic episode. I'm excited to share with all my friends.

[00:52:37] Dan Runcie: Likewise, no. These are the conversations that need to happen, right? The more that people can talk about it, the more it just gets in the open and the faster things get to where it should be.So thank you for making the time. This is great. 

[00:52:49] Cooper Turley: Yeah. The last thing I'll say here in closing, I write a weekly newsletter called This Week in Music, NFTs. If you're interested in any of this conversation,

every Monday I publish a short edition that talks about upcoming drops, top stories, bonus read from the community. So if you're looking to get more involved in the web three space, that's where I'd recommend getting started. And then if you are a founder or an artist that's building something and looking for investment, the best place to reach me is via email coop Coop records xyz. But again, thank you so much for having me, man. This was a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate your time.

[00:53:18] Dan Runcie: Thank you. And if you're not following him on Twitter and you reactive on Twitter, make sure you do that. What's your Twitter handle?

[00:53:23] Cooper Turley: Twitter is at kooopatroopa. Good stuff. Thanks man. Thanks for having me.



]]> 3308 no What Spotify and YouTube’s Billions Playlists Tell Us About Streaming https://www.trapital.com/podcast Today's episode is a two-parter. Part 1 is on Spotify and YouTube’s billion streams and views playlists. After reviewing both lists, there’s a lot to learn about the streaming era and the strategy for both platforms respectively. I broke it all down with Tati Cirsiano, a music analyst at MIDiA Research. Spotify’s list is more reflective of passive consumption. Spotify’s top-performing songs are more correlated with radio hits than YouTube, which is a more active consumption experience. YouTube’s Billion Views Club has more international stars than Spotify. With streaming continuing to grow across the world and plateauing in the United States, YouTube’s list more reflects future music consumption.  Part 2 is with Glenn Peoples from Billboard. We talk about its new Global Music Index that takes the publicly traded stocks from the biggest music companies in music to give an overall picture of stock performance for the industry.  Here’s everything Tati, Glenn, and I covered on the show: [3:03] Immediate takeaways from each Billions Club playlists [5:15] How “meme traffic” impacted both platforms [9:37] Passive consumption vs. active consumption [12:11] International differences between Spotify and YouTube [14:57] The Justin Bieber conundrum  [16:36] How Spotify and YouTube enable fragmentation of fandom [21:26] Gym-going and seasonality’s impact on streaming numbers [26:14] Short-form videos eventual effect on YouTube streaming [27:55] YouTube vs. Spotify competition intensifying  [35:58] MIDiA’s upcoming predictions report [38:33] What % of the Global Music index Spotify takes up [39:23] Why music industry stocks fell further than the overall market [46:25] Streaming platforms increasing prices [50:22] What goes into calculating Average Revenue Per User for Spotify [55:23] Spotify’s podcast strategy & acquisitions [59:18] How much of Trapital’s audience comes from Spotify [1:02:53] Why TikTok should launch it’s own streaming service [1:09:39] What Glenn expects 2023 to look like Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Tati Cirisano, @tatianacirisano, Glenn Peoples, @theglennpeoples   Download The Culture Report here: https://trapital.ck.page/a23b7a6a4a Sponsors: MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Tatiana Cirisano: Spotify's list is more of an accurate reflection of what the passive majority listens to, whereas YouTube is more of a reflection of what people are actively fans of and actively engaging, which is interesting because that was a question that we asked in our last episode where we were like, how do we measure, like, what are new ways to measure consumption? And I said, well, it'd be interesting if we could actually measure, you know, active consumption versus passive. And now here I'm looking at these two lists, I was like, oh, this is actually potentially an example of that. [00:00:37] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:57] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is a two-parter. We normally don't do two-parters, but these topics were so closely linked, it made perfect sense, so we had to do it. The first part of this episode is a conversation I had with Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research, and we talked about the Billions Clubs. Spotify and YouTube both have their respective playlists that have over a billion streams and views respectively. So we talked about what can we learn from both of these playlists together. What does it tell us about the most popular songs that do well on streaming, but also what can it tell us about these two platforms individually? What are the differences between the two playlists? Are there certain songs that perform better on others versus that and why? And what that means more broadly for the sector, Just given how big these companies are. Second part of the conversation, I talked to Glen Peoples who works for Billboard, and he recently released this Global Music Index, which is a value-based index that takes the publicly traded stocks from many of the biggest companies in music, combines them, and gives us an overall picture of how we can look at the performance of the music industry, at least in the publicly traded companies. Hint, it's been a down year for stocks overall, so nothing too surprising there. But we talk specifically about Spotify, who stock is noticeably in a tougher place, at least from, where it was year to date compared to some of the other companies. So we talked about why that is, what to expect, and more. Really great conversations. Let's start things off with Tati. Hope you enjoy it.  [00:02:31] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have Tati Cirisano back with us from MIDiA Research and we're going to dive into the Billions playlists that are both from Spotify and YouTube. What a fascinating list that's like a tripped-out memory lane, telling you what songs are popular, but also how these lists are different. I feel like they both have somewhere between like 3 to 400 songs, but there's a whole bunch of different trends here. I know that we both have a bunch of notes here, but Tati, I'll start with you. What stuck out to you most when you were looking through these lists?  [00:03:03] Tatiana Cirisano: Oh my gosh. So there's so many things. I guess I'll start with the things that stuck out to me that don't have to do with differences, but just stuck out to me in terms of just looking at both. And one was that I felt like there was definitely a dominance of songs and artists from the last decade and maybe even just the last five years, which was interesting to me because there's been such a debate recently about is old music or what we call catalog, which is often not actually old music. But is it sort of cannibalizing new music? Does new music have more to compete with? And that whole argument. So it was interesting to see that there actually weren't that many or weren't relatively as many older songs. I believe the YouTube Billion Views Club had, like, one song from the 70s. It makes more sense with YouTube. And I think YouTube had even more dominance with more recent songs. And that kind of makes sense because if it's visual-based, maybe some of these songs we don't have the music videos, or maybe they're not as good. But I thought that that was interesting just off the bat from both ways.  [00:04:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I would agree. I think that YouTube's list did trend much younger, and there's a whole MTV effect of just what music videos look like then and now. But I also feel like what's important is with both Spotify and YouTube, that when these platforms accelerated in growth, a lot of the artists that were releasing music around those times accelerated and growth too. And I feel like I saw some trends there. If I think about YouTube and its rapid growth phase more so in the early 2010s. There were a few songs there that I saw, whether it was like a party rock anthem or songs like that, that streamed really well on YouTube. Still nowhere near a billion streams on Spotify. And I think on the flip side of that, on Spotify, there were a few songs that were in that late 2010s era when Spotify was in its rapid growth phase that weren't on YouTube's playlist. So that was one of those interesting things. Like, for example, I think Drake's song Nice for What, a billion streams on Spotify. It's in the Billions Club, but it wasn't on YouTube's list. And I remember that music video, I think it's at the skating rink and he has, like, Issa Rae and all these people in it. So there was definitely some influence of the platforms too.  [00:05:15] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. And that reminds me, too, of with the influence of platforms, it felt like, there were, so okay on both platforms. I felt like there were a lot of songs that were driven by, like, a viral hit or a novelty, which kind of just goes to show how embedded music has become in, like, meme culture and social media and just like online culture in general. But it also, like, looking at the differences within that, it felt like, this is like, I mean, you'd need to do more of a real, like, study and look at the actual numbers on this, but just from scrolling over the list, it seemed like, more of the TikTok traffic is going to Spotify. Like, there were a lot of songs that had a billion streams that I just remember being moments on TikTok, like Dreams and the Roses, Imanbek remix, like those songs and many others had passed a billion streams on Spotify, but had not cracked the YouTube list. And then on the flip side, YouTube had a lot of stuff that was more, like, just these, memes about, I'm trying to think of an example, like the Dame tu Cosita song and video, like that. There were actually an abundance of songs on the Billion Views Club for YouTube that were linked to these videos, including Crazy Frog.  [00:06:24] Dan Runcie: I saw that.  [00:06:25] Tatiana Cirisano: It like that was just, like, that was a moment in time in meme culture that kind of preceded TikTok humor. I don't know, like you can almost track meme culture's impact based on these two platforms lists as well with TikTok driving more traffic to Spotify and sort of the old, almost like Vine humor going more to YouTube.  [00:06:45] Dan Runcie: That point makes me think of two things I also saw as well. So I believe the first YouTube video that hit a billion streams was Psy's Gangnam Style. I don't think that song has a billion streams or anywhere close to that on Spotify's list, which I think speaks to your point about just the visual nature of that. And that of course is a pre-TikTok era. The other song I think that lines up with this a bit, and this is because of memes within the music video itself is Nelly and Kelly Rowland's Dilemma music video. That is the most popular YouTube video that Nelly has, and I'm pretty sure that Kelly Rowland likely has too. And it's because of this one scene in the music video where Kelly is texting on this 2002's phone and she has Microsoft Excel open, and that's what she's actually using to text. So they're both, you know, generating money. And Kelly was even talking about an interview semi-recently talking about, I didn't even know what Microsoft Excel was. They just told me to type. But over time, and now we obviously have a different relationship with texting. That type of event can blow up on YouTube in a way that not necessarily going to Spotify.  [00:07:54] Tatiana Cirisano: Right. Like, there's an inherent difference in just what you're going to do on these platforms. Like, there's a number of reasons why you might look up a music video on YouTube. Maybe you like the song, maybe there's a celebrity cameo, maybe somebody told you that. It's a crazy, wild video and you're just curious. Like, there's a lot more reasons I think than there are reasons why you would stream a song. So that just by definition kind of opens up a lot of differences in these lists.  [00:08:18] Dan Runcie: The other thing, too, that you mentioned earlier was the decades and how YouTube's list only had one song that I think that was before 1980 and there was only a handful even from the 80s and the 90s as well. And while Spotify had a bit more, I still think it was quite less. Last time I looked at Spotify's list, it was less than 10% of the 300-plus songs that were more than 20 years old. And I have to assume YouTube may be even closer to 94-96%. Part of that, I think, as you mentioned, is music videos, but I also wonder is part of it with Spotify having a bit more of a close link to radio play and just things that were popular on the radio at the time. Like for instance, a song like Goo Goo Doll's, Iris, that was on Spotify's list is not on YouTube's list. I don't necessarily think the song had like a memorable music video necessarily, but I think it's the audio of it, it makes people think of, you know, what was that movie that it was in? I'm trying to remember the movie that it was in. It'll come to me, but there was some 90s movie that was in, I'm drawing a blank on it right now. Oh, City of Angels. So it was in that, and then, but I just don't think that people, like, recognized the music video they would like, it wasn't necessarily this big, like TRL hit the way that like a boy band song was.  [00:09:37] Tatiana Cirisano: I noticed the same thing where looking over Spotify's list, it felt very much like just a list of every radio hit of the past 10 or 20 years that it was really, really tied to that. And I wonder, like, this kind of brings me to another thing that I wanted to talk to you about with this, which is how my sort of theory with another reason that these are different is that Spotify's list is more of an accurate reflection of what the passive majority listens to, whereas YouTube is more of a reflection of what people are actively fans of and actively engaging, which is interesting because that was a question that we asked in our last episode where we were like, how do we measure, like, what are new ways to measure consumption? And I said, well, it'd be interesting if we could actually measure, you know, active consumption versus passive. And now here I'm looking at these two lists, I was like, oh, this is actually potentially an example of that. And the other reason that came to me is because at MIDiA, we've recently done a report on looking at different types of entertainment and how much of consumption is in the background of another activity versus focused. And YouTube, like, people that watch music videos on YouTube are much more likely to be doing that as a focused activity in the foreground rather than something in the background, which makes sense because it's visual, there's, you know, social features to it, et cetera whereas they're a lot more likely to just put on their Spotify music in the background of something else. So I wonder if that's also part of the reason that Spotify seems to have more of a tie to radio and those songs that were just kind of popular for everyone whereas YouTube is more what are the songs and artists and videos that people are like engaging with. [00:11:09] Dan Runcie: That's a good point. It makes me think, well, on the YouTube side, I'm much more likely to listen to a YouTube playlist run, right? Like, I normally don't do that when I'm watching YouTube. I know YouTube has playlist, but I'm more likely to put a Spotify playlist on, which speaks to that. And I know some of the stuff that you've researched and the team has researched on MIDiA as well, is just this whole nature of probably a bit more on the digital stream provider side, but how to measure active versus passive engagement of, or actually listening to a song. And maybe this is a closer way to get a gauge for that because, you know, especially when these artists have these big week sales that'll come out and we'll see the numbers come through, it would be great to know, okay, how many people said yes, I want to listen to this Taylor Swift song from the Midnights album as opposed to people being like, oh, it just happened to be what's dominating today's top hits or if I'm listening to, you know, the number 50 or the top 50 songs in the US. These are the ones that happen to play.  [00:12:11] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, yeah. That makes total sense. And I think the other reason why Spotify's list probably is more tied to radio is because it's a lot more, like the user base is less international than YouTube 'cause that was the biggest difference, looking at the two lists was just how few internet, like non-Western artists there were on Spotify's Billions Club versus YouTube's.  [00:12:36] Dan Runcie: That stuck out too. And I think YouTube as well also had a list of artists that had the most Billion Views Club songs were and artists like Ozuna were high up on that list. I want to say he had at least 10 videos on YouTube that hit a billion. But on Spotify, it's far less. I think J Balvin was another one too, where there was a big discrepancy there. And yeah, I think the fact that YouTube has had much more of a market share and in general listenership in these regions outside of, you know, US and Western Europe as opposed to YouTube. So maybe part of that, where it's a signal of like, okay, this is where Spotify's clearly trying to grow and has been trying to get more share in. So, like, if Spotify achieved its goal, then it likely would have more of that and vice versa. [00:13:28] Tatiana Cirisano: Right. And then it is YouTube's sort of a more accurate representation of, like, what the music landscape of the future looks like in that way where it will be less dominated probably by Western artists. As you know, streaming sort of infiltrates all these other places. And that is so interesting for, like, the fragmentation conversation that we've been having because it means things are just further fractured and, you know, there's going to be lots of artists and songs on these lists that we've probably never heard of. Like, it was so interesting to me because part of the, like, excitement that I had to do this little project of, like, opening the two and comparing them was, I was excited to be surprised. I was like, I want to see what things are on the list that I'm like, I have never heard of that. Or what is that? How did that end up here? And I did not have that moment once looking at Spotify's playlist. But looking at YouTube's, there were so many videos and so many artists that I just had never heard of, and that was exciting to me. So I wonder how much that's a product of YouTube specifically versus that being what will happen inevitably when streaming is more widespread. [00:14:34] Dan Runcie: And were most of the surprises that you had, were most of them from an international perspective, or were there any Western-based music surprises?  [00:14:43] Tatiana Cirisano: That's a good question. There were definitely a handful of Western ones that I can't think of right now, but the majority were probably just artists I'd never heard of or songs, yeah, artists I didn't know anything about that had billions and billions of views. Yeah, I don't know. Let me think about that.  [00:14:57] Dan Runcie: Yeah. While you're thinking about that, one thing that stuck out to me was there were certain artists that I think surprised me both in a way of, oh, I thought there would've been more here, or there were actually a bit less here. One artist is Justin Bieber. So I know that Justin Bieber is very popular, but if you would've asked me who were the biggest artists of the 2010s, I probably would name four names, maybe even five names before I named his name. But if you look at, even if you're just looking at Western artists, the artist that is the one with the most songs on Spotify and the one that I believe has the most songs on YouTube as well, Justin Bieber is in the top three of both of those lists. I believe it's at least nine songs on Spotify and at least maybe 10 or so on YouTube. And there's something about that fandom that I didn't necessarily, I mean, I knew that he was huge. I knew that there were so many songs that were quite popular, especially the album that had, like, Sorry, and Love Yourself. Like, that one was huge, but I thought that there were other artists, like for instance, an artist like Beyoncé or even someone like Taylor Swift, who, I don't believe that Beyoncé had a song on the YouTube list at all, or a song that's really close to that. And at least up to now, I don't think that Taylor Swift has a song on Spotify's Billions List. I think that Blank Space will probably get there eventually, but I don't think she has a song this moment that's on that list. So to see the two of them who I think a lot of people largely think are two of the largest musicians in of the past decade, but to see someone like Bieber just have hit after hit on both of these lists, I was like, wow. [00:16:36] T a t iana Cirisano: That's so interesting, the Justin Bieber conundrum of all of this. Okay, I have a couple of thoughts on that. I think, so he was sort of Made on YouTube, right? That's where he started posting clips. That's where he was discovered. And I think something else that this ties into that I wanted to bring up is how, with YouTube, the artists that reach these Billion Views Club, I think probably are more likely to have sort of built a community on YouTube which Justin Bieber did, and that was kind of like the roots of his fandom. So when I was reading YouTube's, like, blog about the Billion Views Club, and there were a bunch of artists' quotes, and a lot of them had to do with the artist saying, you know, like, YouTube was a place to build a community. And Alan Walker was one of the artists who said that. And he was someone who, he's an electronic music artist who when I was looking at the YouTube Billions Views Club, he came up again and again and I was like, it seemed random to me because he's a great artist. He has a big community of fans, but I just didn't think that he would have billions of views. But he seems to credit the community aspect for that. So I think that could be part of it. But then as soon as you said, oh but he's also one of the top artists on Spotify, I'm like, okay, but that's a completely different story because there's no community building on Spotify. So is it just that the fans are, that obsessed with the music that they're, you know, maybe migrating over and streaming there as well, or are we just misremembering, you know, how big of an impact Justin Bieber had? And then that brought me to thinking about how, I mean I think this relates to Taylor as well, but they both built their fan bases at a time when things were just kind of a lot less congested. So I think it was in many ways, easier to get a billion views or billion streams on something a couple of years ago than it is now, now that people's tastes are so fragmented. So maybe that's also part of the reason why, like, I wonder how many of those streams came from, you know, pre-2015 or something versus from then on. I wonder when they were accumulated. So yeah, that's sort of my rant of thoughts.  [00:18:41] Dan Runcie: That one about Bieber is a good one because I didn't think about that, but I think it's absolutely right. He was doing all those cover songs of all these other artists when he's like a teenager. He's growing the base there. And to the point that you had brought up in an article a couple of months ago, we talked about the last time we're on the podcast, he is in a different category than someone like a Beyoncé or Taylor Swift. Like, when Taylor made Teardrops On My G uitar. I don't even like, that was probably around the same time that YouTube started. Like in some ways her fandom predated so much of what people know as music. And of course, Beyonce became a solo artist from Destiny's Child well before YouTube even started. So I think that's a good point there with some of it. The Spotify thing though is interesting, yeah. I mean, I think those songs did get a lot of radio play as well. Like everything off of that album, that Bieber's album that Sorry came on as well. Like, they got a ton of radio plays. So that ties into the Spotify piece of it, too, and maybe a little bit of misremembering of certain things of, well, and you know, like I'm a little bit older than the custom Bieber demo, so there could be some of it there where they may not hit me in the same circles that, the same way that, you know, someone did with Beyoncé for instance. [00:19:53] T a t iana Cirisano: Yeah. I have another thought related to this that I feel like I'm struggling to articulate, but I'm going to try, which is that on the Spotify list and the YouTube list, I thought there was more overlap when it came to which older artists were on the list than there was when it comes to newer artists. And I wonder if that is also sort of further proof of this fragmentation that's happening because it would make sense that if a decade ago, two decades ago, people kind of had less to choose from to listen to. Everybody kind of has the same favorite artists from those decades that they've listened to enough to reach a billion streams. Yet now that people have more choice and things are fragmented more, their favorite artists and songs today are more varied.  [00:20:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think there's something there because if you think about it, the lists are quite similar. And I think even if you look at YouTube's list, which I think even though YouTube's list is less reliant on radio, the biggest songs they have from the 80s and 90s are still the same songs that people have heard in bars and in stadiums and in TV commercials for decades now. So there's consistency there. Things do start to get a bit segmented to your point of where things are right now. So both of these platforms, in many ways enable the fragmentation of fandom. Their algorithms made it easy for people to have their own circles. So I do think that that piece of it is true. So I think that's a good point.  [00:21:18] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. Okay. I'm glad I could put that into words 'cause it was one of those things where I had this thought and was like, does this make sense?  [00:21:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Oh, yeah.  [00:21:25] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. Fascinating. [00:21:26] Dan Runcie: Another thing too, that stuck out, this stuck out a bit more on Spotify's playlist than others, but how certain songs have shifted from when radio, for instance, was more playing songs that I think people more often wanted to hear in their cars. But Spotify, it's on-demand, it's everywhere. I think, for instance, workout music is something that we've seen a pretty large uptick on with Spotify. A song like Eminem's Till I Collapse, which is in the billions playlist for Spotify, I don't think I heard that song once on the radio. Maybe I'm misremembering things just relative to how big Eminem's hits were in the early 2000s. But that song is one of his most played songs. And I think it's because it's a song that a lot of guys listen to when they want to work out. Maybe it's something that they also will play, like, I don't think they to like LA Fitness necessarily like on the speakers, but I think it's more so of like a, no, let me go listen to this while I try to, you know, set PR on the bench press or whatever. So I feel like there's things like that, also seasonal music, right? Of course, just Mariah Carey and some of the records and accolades that All I Want For Christmas Is You has continued to reach and all of the remixes and versions she's done of that song, like that doesn't happen without streaming, right? [00:22:41] Tatiana Cirisano: I was going to say September was also on there, which, you know, every September everybody starts to sing. That is a seasonal song. So, yeah, no, I totally agree with you. And I also noticed that both lists had a lot of, like, upbeat music, like what you're saying, like stuff that people work out to. And I feel like it's for different reasons. Like I'm Spotify, maybe those types of songs dominate because like you're saying, they're the things that people put on in the background of something. Whereas on YouTube, the reason might be because those tend to have more vibrant videos. Like, I feel like more people are likely to watch videos for, you know, an upbeat reggaeton song than like some acoustic, I don't know, Taylor Swift song, even though she's a massive star. Like, overall, you know? And on that note, I don't know if this is just my, you know, anecdotal takeaway, you'd have to, again, like actually go through all the songs and do some data crunching. But I felt like Spotify had actually more varied in terms of like upbeat songs were on there. But also a lot of, Coldplay, a lot of like earlier Ed Sheeran, like, those more like, not so upbeat, more acoustic songs, whereas YouTube barely had any of those because again, I think there may be less likely to be something people watch the video of. I don't know. But that was interesting just how uptempo the two lists were.  [00:23:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I would need to go back and check to see if like a song like Coldplay's Yellow. Is that on YouTube's list?  [00:24:08] Tatiana Cirisano: It's on Spotify's, but I don't think it's on Youtube's. [00:24:10] Dan Runcie: And that would speak to that, right? It's a more somber video. I'm pretty sure Chris Martin's head is laying like sideways on the pavement in that video, right, or on the bed, if I remember correctly. So yeah, it's just not going to be as, I think, yes. Like, if you have five minutes, like, this is the thing that I want to be able to get to. So yeah, it's such a fascinating distinction. And I think with it, it's clear that with both of these platforms, the two of them are really trying to compete more and more with each other, with both Spotify trying to get more and more international, YouTube trying to have more and more influence just in terms of the overall revenue that they generate for the industry. So I do want to talk about the two of them as companies distinctly, but before we get there, I think that the international piece and just how revenue is generated for each of these streams or each of these views will be an interesting distinction over time because, especially with Spotify, these streams that the artists are generating don't necessarily get weighted the same in terms of the pro rata and the pools that they get put into and then getting separated. So if one artist has a bunch of streams from a bunch of their fans, but a lot of their fans are in places where the subscriptions cost $2 per month to subscribe to Spotify, or there's a over index of free accounts versus paid, like these numbers don't necessarily reflect that, which is fine. I think we're just trying to get a gauge for what listening looks like. But the revenue may actually look very different for, let's say, thinking about like one of these, you know, 80s or 90s radio hits. The person that's listening to that account may be more likely to be paying 10 or maybe soon $11 a month for Spotify subscription if I'm just thinking about what that consumer may be like and therefore essentially getting more revenue per stream than some of the newer artists that may have a younger aboard international fan base. So that was another point that I thought was interesting. We won't have that data, but just based on inference, I feel like that's a trend in terms of where it's going.  [00:26:14] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, that makes sense. And I also wonder, like, if short form video becomes the more dominant form of consuming video, and the people that are watching music videos on YouTube shift to watching 32nd videos that use music on shorts, like, what will that do to the revenue mix? And it'll also depend on if the way that UGC platforms payout to the music industry changes where it's no longer this, you know, blanket payment for uses and is more per use. I think there's a lot that could get shifted around there. And I wonder if, like, does that mean YouTube is sort of cannibalizing its own, one of its own sources where people that are watching music videos are now going to shorts instead? Or is there an opportunity? Like, I think there's an opportunity for both. But I guess these are just questions that come up in my mind when I think about it.  [00:27:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's like in some ways it's similar to when Instagram adds stories, right? You're trying to get a sense, is this additive or is this going to take away, And I think YouTube's goal is that would be additive, but you're bringing up, I think, a valid thing where it's a little different with music and how you're registering streams. And I do think that there's a certain number of people that the better and better that shorts get, there's going to be less desire to go check out the actual video. And if these songs aren't registering, I think at least for a stream or a view, it's 30 seconds of listening needs to be registered, at least to be counted as a stream. Then if that doesn't happen on a short end, you're just getting these clips, then how does that impact the actual artist themselves, right?  [00:27:47] Tatiana Cirisano: No, you put it really well. Like, the better that shorts gets, the more it might actually threaten people going to YouTube to watch the video. [00:27:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So many interesting, I think, things to just dive into with this. But I think it's a good point to just talk more broadly about Spotify and YouTube in general, just in terms of where they are, how both of them want the other one. And I think based on these blog posts and based on a number of the letters that, the emails that you'll see from Lyor Cohen when he's describing where things are with YouTube. There's clearly a goal to, you know, establish itself as the leader in the market. And I think the growth has been pretty strong, but of course Spotify, I think still with nearly 200 million paid subscribers is definitely, you know, I think leading on that front. But where do you see this play out in terms of whether or not the trends and clearly what these playlists tell us about the tendencies of these two companies and also where things are going and who we think will be more or less dominant, let's say five years from now? Let's not say 10 years. I think that's a bit too far out, but let's say five years from now.  [00:28:51] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. Well, I've written about this, I've written a couple of blogs about this, but I think that YouTube does have a lot of advantages, especially for just where the music landscape is going. So one is that, in the streaming world, there's so little differentiation, right? All the DSPs kind of offer the same experience, the same catalog, the same price. But YouTube actually has a differentiating factor in that it's an audio-visual platform, and that they also have shorts, and they kind of have this ecosystem of apps that feed into each other. And that's sort of the second advantage, is that ecosystem aspect where, you know, based on our data, new generations of fans are really looking for more ways to actively participate in fandom and, you know, not just listen to a song, but create content around it. And YouTube has that it has this, you know, creator proposition. In many ways, YouTube was the first, arguably the first, you know, creator platform. The first place that you could post video content online and build a career around it. So, fans want this, but also artists need more ways to directly engage with their fans and monetize and actually not just be discovered, but sustain fandom and build communities. And that's the thing that I think so many social platforms lack, is they can help artists get discovered, but it's still really hard for them to connect the dots. So when you have YouTube, if you think about like the journey of, a fan through the ecosystem, you know, maybe they discover a song on shorts, and they can actually just click it and go straight, you know, go straight to the artist's YouTube page where maybe they watch the video that just came out and then they can go to YouTube music and stream the song, and it kind of creates this more frictionless experience. So I think we're already seeing a lot of consumers spend more of their music time on platforms that let them play around with the music, like the TikToks of the world and the shorts of the world. So if you have an ecosystem that combines that with streaming and the ability to just go seamlessly from one to the other, I think that's really powerful. And that's also why, you know, ByteDance launching a streaming service could really change the game. I think ByteDance and YouTube have a lot of the same advantages in that space. So I think YouTube is well positioned for the current era and what both artists are looking for and what fans are looking for, I guess is how I would frame that. [00:31:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think that YouTube's biggest advantage with this is that A, it still is under a much larger company that prints money from search, which is Google, right? So the fact that it in itself is the second largest search engine, largely because of Google, I think that piece of it will serve well. And I think secondly, the fact that when there's so many more things competing for your attention, whatever can make that have less friction, it can make it easier for people to access that platform as we've seen based on the rise of TikTok, I think those platforms do tend to win out in this area where you're ultimately trying to either capture or monetize attention. And the way that streaming is going, even though I know it can be lucrative for artists that own their assets or have favorable terms, it is a bit more of a measure of capturing attention for a lot of artists and being able to essentially market and position themselves out there to share what they have so that they can monetize elsewhere. And I do think that, I know I've talked about this previously, but just Spotify may be in a little bit more of a difficult position just given the fact that its ultimate goal is still to try to get more monetization from its non-music audio, whether it's your podcast or your audiobooks and stuff like that. [00:32:41] Dan Runcie: And I think that is a little bit of a tougher bet relative to YouTube, China. going with shorts and essentially try to compete more directly with TikTok or just other things in general that are making it easier. That said, I still think that Spotify is more strong from a product perspective of actually being able to, you know, ease of use of listening, being able to find and skip to the song, and being able to listen to a song on my phone you know, turning off the screen and then putting it in my pocket. And I know that YouTube does now allow you essentially to do that if you pay for subscription, but I think the friction, at least in the consumer's mind, is a little different than it is with doing that with Spotify, even because you do that with Spotify for free account especially. So I do think that there are some pros and cons there, but to your point, I do think that because YouTube is moving more in the direction of creating less friction for people to use its product and just the fact that it's visual, it's engaged, and to your other point, it's a bit more directly connected to fans being able to actively choose what they want to listen to, like the data and all those things are going to be more impactful and insightful there. [00:33:48] Tatiana Cirisano: Right, Right. So I think artists will kind of go to wherever the fans and the remuneration opportunities are, and I think YouTube is right now, providing more of that than Spotify is. Like, Spotify is a place where you can monetize scale, but you can't monetize niche. And YouTube is an ecosystem where you can monetize both. And I think there's no reason why streaming services in general shouldn't be a place where you can monetize both. But we haven't really seen that happen yet, and I think YouTube is moving in that direction. So I guess I come at this question because of the work that I do from such a perspective of what do the artists and the fans want. But of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that alone isn't going to, you know, make YouTube overtake Spotify. So I guess I'm a little bit biased just based on the work that I do.  [00:34:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I could see that. Because there's just so many other, there's just so many factors at play here. It's such a dominant position and at the end of the day, nearly 200 million people in the world are paying for the service and that is much higher than a lot of these other services. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out though. I feel like to some of the points you brought up earlier. Just going back to the Billions Club, if we had this conversation two years from now, I'd be interested to see, one, which old songs creep back up and which songs that have come up recently end up rising up and hitting those places, and does it line up with a lot of the points that we brought up here? So I'm excited to see what that looks like.  [00:35:15] Tatiana Cirisano: No, me too. And also what the pace will be like? Will there be just way more songs that have hit a billion streams in a shorter amount of time, or will the opposite trend happen because of fragmentation? Like, I'm not, I'm not really sure. So yeah, as always, excited to see definitely what comes next.  [00:35:30] Dan Runcie: Well, Tati, this is great. Thanks for coming to share these insights. And I think now I got to go back and count how many Crazy Frog videos there were on YouTube's list because when I saw that, I'm glad you brought that up. I was just like, my goodness, I forgot all about this trend.  [00:35:45] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, at least in that ratio, you know, we have confirmed YouTube wins.  [00:35:49] Dan Runcie: All right. Before we let you go, what do you have coming down the pipeline? Are there any upcoming research or any recent things that you've put out that listeners should keep an eye out for? [00:35:58] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, I would say coming up one of my favorite things that we do at MIDiA Research is our predictions report where every year, at the end of the year, we put out predictions for the coming year. And we also rate ourselves in terms of how much we got right from the past year. I believe our success rate is somewhere above 80%. [00:36:16] Dan Runcie: That's legit.  [00:36:17] Tatiana Cirisano: That's great. But yeah, so we always do I believe we always do a free webinar on that. It was free last year. So look out for that because it's a great chance to interact with us even if you're not a client. And it's a lot of fun.  [00:36:30] Dan Runcie: Awesome, we'll look out for that and, yeah. [00:36:33] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. [00:36:33] Dan Runcie: We'll have to see. I'm curious about what the hit rate will be this year. So definitely let us know what the success rate is... [00:36:39] Tatiana Cirisano: We will. [00:36:40] Dan Runcie: from the ones you made last year, heading into this year.  [00:36:42] Tatiana Cirisano: Awesome. Thanks, Dan.  [00:36:43] Dan Runcie: Awesome. Well, thank you. This is great.  [00:36:45] Dan Runcie: All right. Hope you enjoyed that first part with Tati breaking down the Billions Clubs. Here's my chat with Glenn Peoples. [00:36:53] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have Glenn Peoples with us who is from Billboard, and he just released this Global Music Index, which has stated that music stocks are down 44% this year, twice as much as the market. And Glenn, it'd be great to start here. What's going on? Why are socks down in the music industry? [00:37:13] Glenn Peoples: Hey, thanks for having me. Well, stocks are down in general. So it's not that just music that's having a tough time at the stock market. You know, a big component of the Global Music Index, which I created for Billboard is Spotify. And Spotify has had a tough year, just like Netflix has had a tough year. There's, I think, enthusiasm for streaming stocks was high at the beginning of the pandemic and dropped quite a bit since then. And investors are not looking at growth so much as looking at margins, looking at profits, and so they're expecting a lot more from streaming services right now. So it's a tough time to be a streaming service, whether you're Netflix, whether you're Spotify. You could say, well, the investors got carried away. They were overvalued. Yeah, maybe so. It's just been a tough year for streaming services and when Spotify is that big of a component of the index, it's down, well, as of yesterday, it's down 60% for the year. And so that's a lot of market cap that's gone and that's dragging down the index. And that's the short version.  [00:38:17] Dan Runcie: Right. So of course, it's a value-based index. Market cap is what defines it. And just so listeners know, how big of a factor is Spotify? Like, how much is their stock and their market cap weighted in terms of the overall index? [00:38:33] Glenn Peoples: I would say it's probably, again, this is just ballpark. It's probably about 15% of the value of the index. It was a lot more obviously. I would say right now at its current price, it's 10 to 15%. Universal Music Group is the biggest component of the index, and there's some other companies just a handful that really stand out above everybody else. Live Nation, Warner Music Group, Sirius XM are some of the big ones.  [00:39:02] Dan Runcie: The thing that stuck out to me about it is that, of course, Spotify stock is a huge piece of it, but even if you were to take out Spotify, the non-Spotify stocks in that index still are down more than the overall market has been this past year. So it also makes me think that there may be something going on that's a bit deeper than just streaming.  [00:39:23] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, it's not just streaming. You know, a lot of music companies had a great 2021 and I think that they just had further to fall. So there were some really high valuations and it just sets these companies up for a pretty big fall when investor sentiment turns and the market turns. And ever since the Fed announced in, I believe, December, that it was going to start raising interest rates. You know, stocks have started to fall and Spotify definitely started to fall then. And it's been a long, what is that, roughly 10 months since then. Things have calmed down a bit, but stocks are, boy, they're really having a tough time. It's really volatile a lot there. I think there's two ways to look at it. One is what's the value of the stock? What's the value of the company as valued by investors? And what's the potential of the company based on the company itself and the intellectual property it has? And those two don't always line up. You know, Spotify I still think is a very good company. I think it has a lot of work to do, but it's growing at a good clip and I think they have good people there. But when you are a streaming stock and you're facing really a once-in-a-generation kind of environment with very bad inflation you know, crazy, I was about to say unemployment, but unemployment is not that bad. It's just a very strange time in the market and a very strange macroeconomic climate. And you're seeing good companies have very difficult times with their stock prices. You know, Universal Music Group is down. But the market is down overall and Universal's not going to escape the just general downturn of the market. That's saying something because Universal is the biggest music company out there holding up market share very well has a big share of the top 10, any given time, big artists. But you can't correlate stock market performance with company performance just perfectly. It's a very strange time in the macroeconomic climate right now.  [00:41:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The interesting thing with the major record label stocks, and even some of these other companies that, yeah, even though they may not be streaming services themselves, when streaming makes up such a high percentage of the overall revenue for this entire industry, then Spotify's stock is in many ways going to be at least somewhat correlated to what we see with Universal given the fact that these companies have equity in each other, they're so dependent on each other, so a lot of that is given. You mentioned Live Nation earlier, and I think that their stock is interesting, too, because even though it isn't directly tied to streaming, that stock had hit record highs in the middle of the pandemic when there were no shows going on. So that just spoke to how much of a disconnect there was if you looked at how the company was actually doing in 2020 and even in 2021 when there were nowhere near as many shows as they had had in 2019, but they now are actually being able to realize more of that revenue. But the stock has adjusted in a lot of ways since. So there is a bit of this disconnect. I think there was just a good amount of excitement as well about what's happening in music as an investment class. Specifically, you looked at all of the catalog sales and the booms that happen thanks to the low-interest rates, and they're no longer low anymore. So you're also seeing that play a factor in, and you've also heard some of the acquirers of those catalogs expressing a bit of disappointment that the returns aren't quite what they thought the returns were going to be as well. So some of those things, I think, Brought some of the temperament and a lot of the companies that are in your index down to, I don't want to say necessarily down to earth, because I think there's still plenty of room for growth for a lot of them, but it's clear that we've moved past that era of the pandemic when things were just high for the pure speculation of where it could be in a few years. [00:43:15] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, I think the honeymoon is over for a lot of music stocks. You know, music as an asset class was really attractive. And, you know, look, just the fact that Universal is public and Warner is public once again, and there are numerous streaming services from Tencent Music and Cloud Music in China to Anghami and Spotify and Deezer. There's a lot of music companies that are publicly traded right now and that says a lot about music as an asset, as a segment, set aside the problems it's had in the last year. So music companies had a great 2020 and 2021, and it's been downhill since then. But the fact that there are a lot of publicly traded music companies right now, and so much investor interest in music catalogs like you mentioned, I think says a lot about music as an asset class, music as an investment in general. Look, five years ago, how many publicly traded music companies were there? I mean, Spotify has been public for about five years. Pandora was before it was bought by Sirius. You know, but you didn't have Tencent, you didn't have Cloud Music, you didn't have Anghami, you didn't have Deezer, you didn't have Reservoir Media, or Believe. Warner was private. Universal was private. So the fact that Wall Street has taken a liking to music, I think says a lot despite what the stock prices say right now.  [00:44:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I agree. The fact that this wasn't even possible, just shows what's happened. And a lot of companies, even outside of music, are starting to have money at least level back off now that the pandemic is over, now that the quarantine highs for a lot of these stocks are over. I'm interested to see where did things go from here, because I still believe that there's a ton of potential in each of these companies if the expectations and if the investors expectations of the market are where they need to be. I still think that music is a hot and a popular asset class, especially for investors. But is it 30 x value? Is it 30 x multiples for some of these catalogs that just bring 'em to certain valuations, or does it need to be more level? Because I do think that there's still plenty of value if those multiples and a lot of those things are where they should be. And even thinking about whether it's live entertainment or streaming in general, I think there's still plenty of room for growth. There's still a lot of opportunities there, but it's just being able to get a clear idea on, what is the actual TAM? What is the actual total addressable market for these areas? And I think if anything, you saw that challenge happen with a lot of the discourse around Netflix and what the future is there, you started to saw things drop right around they had, you know, around 220 million subscribers. I think Spotify was likely asking similar questions, too, and I still think there's growth, you know, for the right price there's always going to be something, but what that price would be and how many people are willing to pay for it, knowing that, of course, if it's a paid product, you're not going to hit all 8 billion people in the world. But there is some actual number out there. So I think the more clarity that there is on that, and of course that's part of the game to figure that out, but the closer that you can get to what that actually is, the more that investors can make sound decisions.  [00:46:25] Glenn Peoples: Yeah. You know, as we're talking now, there's a lot going on. We're a couple of hours away from Spotify releasing third-quarter earnings, which will, I'm not sure how much that'll say, look, that's backward-looking, but the company will take the opportunity to talk about a lot of things investors and analysts are curious about. Yesterday Apple announced it was raising prices for Apple Music and Apple TV Plus, and the Apple bundle. And YouTube premium prices went up as well, I believe, for the family plan only. And what do we see today? What we see Universal shares went up almost 12% and closed. They're trading the Netherlands, so that's already closed. In the middle of the day, Warner Music was up 7% to 8% at its best. Believe was up. Hipgnosis shares were up about, and those closed, that trades in London. That closed up about 8% I think. So investors, I think, get the news that they've really been waiting for, that prices are finally going to go up. You know, Netflix has raised prices. Pricing in streaming video on demand is a lot more flexible than it is for music and music prices have barely budged in over a decade, and executives have been saying for months and for years that prices will go up. But they haven't.  [00:47:45] Dan Runcie: Why do think it took this long?  [00:47:47] Glenn Peoples: Well, I think, companies were much more concerned about growing the market than maximizing revenue per customer. Is it more important to get the customer in the door or to charge more per customers is the question, and I think that they've been much more concerned about building the customer base and building relationships. And then at some point, it's a timing issue. When do you raise price? When can you do it without turning people off? And I think what we see these days with inflation is what it is, is companies might feel a little more emboldened to just raise price and think they can get away with it. Name one price that's not up in the last year. Except music streaming, it seems like everything else is up. And so somebody had to be, you know, first to do it and YouTube and Apple did it, which could embolden Spotify to do it finally. And I think my impression of Universal's shares going up almost 12% is that they think Spotify's going to raise prices as well. That doesn't seem like a bump just from Apple. That seems like a bump from broad price increases across the board. [00:48:51] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I would agree. I think that it's going to happen and the reason why I think it probably hasn't happened until this point I was talking to Will Page about this, who is a former chief economist at Spotify. And his perspective on it was that the difference, and it was mine as well, the difference between why a company like Netflix would continue to increase prices but Spotify hasn't a bit in line with the type of content that you're getting. In a lot of ways, Spotify and Apple are offering a lot of the same thing. Sure. I know Spotify has its podcasting, Apple has its podcasting and non-music audio, and we'll talk about that in a second. But I think when they're all offering the same thing, then there's a bit more pressure to try to offer price discounts and bundles and stuff like that as opposed to Netflix or some of those companies offering differentiated content. So you're more buying into something that you're going to get on Netflix that you can't get on Hulu or on Disney Plus, or on HBO Max or one of the other services. So I feel like there's a factor of it there. And I remember a few years ago there was some tests about it and some discussions where in Europe they were exploring what. 12.99 would look like, or maybe it was 13.99. But I didn't hear anything necessarily come definitive from that. Maybe it was 11.99, but there was some price increase that they were exploring in Europe. So it feels like it's inevitable that Spotify will join in and yeah, if your price is going to increase 10%, then your stock price will likely increase around 10% as well. [00:50:22] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, that makes sense. Most people look at how much revenue a company takes in every month. ARPU, average revenue per user, Spotify considers a metric lifetime value. And so it's not focused solely on price. Price plays into lifetime value, but so does churn rate, and the family plan is something that is reduced churn rate. As churn goes down, lifetime value goes up. I mean, for a subscription business, what you don't want are people coming in and out and churning in and churning out and taking time off or just leaving the subscription service for good. So if you cut down churn rate, the value goes up, and that's more value to creators. That's more value to publishers, to record labels, and to Spotify without raising price. If you can work on lifetime value without having to raise price, that might be the low-hanging fruit that you do in the meantime before you consider raising prices. And now it appears like everybody's to the point where they say, okay, now we can raise prices. [00:51:22] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. I think the fact that we're here says a lot. So we'll continue to see, and I'm sure that the next price increase after this probably won't take this long if this is the one that got us here. The thing with Spotify though, is I'm sure we'll see what investors feel more broadly about the company's strategy because non-music, audio and podcasting specifically has been part of its big bet on how it can have better margins, how it can just essentially make more money and have something that they can continue to grow. But there's been a lot of pushback. There's been a lot of canceled shows and studios, and some of that's standard for the industry. But some of it also feels like there's more and more question marks on, okay, they've spent billions on this. Is this going to work? Is this going to take off the way that they expect it to? What's your current take on the future outlook for Spotify's non-music audio strategy?  [00:52:16] Glenn Peoples: I think it's a good strategy. You build up a platform starting with music. You attract hundreds of thousands of users and then you turn it into an audio platform that's not just music and you introduce spoken word content. I think it's going to take quite a few years. So I think expecting changes, you know, we're only two years into some of their acquisitions for podcast studios and for platforms such as Megaphone. I know investors might not want to wait five years, but it's going to take a while. And, you know, long-term Spotify thinks that they can get some pretty good margins out of podcasts, margins that exceed what they get from music. They think that they can get the math when I look at audiobook margins, they bought an audiobook distributor called Findaway. And I think as retailer and distributor, Spotify gets about 60% of sales. Audiobook download margins are pretty good and that's about double what they're going to get for music. How much business is out there for audiobooks? Yeah, I mean, right now probably not that much, but over time I'm sure they can build it into something much more considerable. And, you know, if it's 60% gross margin, that's really good. You're not going to get that in music. You can build a platform based on music, but then eventually you got to go looking elsewhere for margins. And so I think it can work out for Spotify, it's just going to take a while and some people might not have much patience. I get that. But it's going to take a while.  [00:53:41] Dan Runcie: It's something I've thought a lot about because I understand that podcasting itself is something where the audience takes time to build. You want to be able to see these shows grow over time. But I also think that so much of their biggest growth has come from acquiring shows that are already popular. And I know they've made big acquisitions, whether as with Gimlet or with The Ringer, or they have the exclusive deal with, or the licensing deal with Joe Rogan. But how many others of those are out there that they haven't necessarily had? Are there going to be more in-house ones that can build up? Because I feel like one of the challenges I've seen with the strategy is that they've had a lot of money spent on getting these big-name celebrities to then have shows where they have other big-name celebrities as guests and things like that. And a lot of that is antithetical to what's made so much of podcasting be effective for a lot of folks. And sometimes it works well, but a lot of times it doesn't. And it's content. You do have to make some bets, but I'm interested to see how many more of those wins that are going to be out there for them, because that's the piece that at least gives you some bump 'cause at least we've seen the numbers and successes from the popular acquisitions, the shows that they've had. It's the in-house development where I think by nature there is a natural, whether it's just the likelihood of success of you're starting anything new, not everything is going to take off, but the real success metric will be, okay, two, three years from now, we're there Spotify originals that are at the top of the charts and are creating and demanding that audience the same way that some of these other shows, whether it's outside of the network or some of the ones that they've acquired are able to do? [00:55:23] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, it looks to me like they have kind of a three-prong attack where they spend mightily for somebody like Joe Rogan and that's not going to last forever. That licensing deal will be up, I don't know, maybe next year. And what do they renew or do they go spend a lot of money on somebody else? I mean, Joe Rogan brings 'em a lot of a lot of listeners I'd wager. So they have a very small number of really big shows, and then they have a lot of in-house shows with Parcast, The Ringer, Gimlet, and they can go acquire some other ones. And then they have a lot of DIY stuff. And then you get into the long tail. And this is where I think there's a lot of potential to monetize listening just like there would be in music. They bought a platform called Anchor. That's a podcast creation and distribution. Megaphone rather, is more the distribution tool. And so they have the infrastructure in place to let people create shows, distribute shows, and now they can monetize those shows. Now, do advertisers want to monetize or advertise against, you know, podcasts nobody's heard of. Not sure exactly how that's going to work. You might be not getting good advertising dollars on some of the shows, but to the extent that you can monetize the long tail podcast, Spotify is building that. And if anybody can do it, it looks like they could. So it's not about Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan might have been something just to get his podcast business off the ground, a very expensive way to get his podcast business off the ground and get it noticed by listeners and noticed by advertisers. And they might not, you know, have another Rogan after that deals up. But there's a lot of stuff out there to acquire. You know, Spotify, you take a look at the top 50 or a hundred shows. Spotify is Rogan and Call Her Daddy and maybe one other one. But there's a lot of stuff out there that they could go after. But again, this is kind of the long tail and maybe the midtier stuff that would be in-house productions. I think that really is the test of how they're going to do in podcasting at scale how can they monetize the long tail of podcast?  [00:57:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think the other thing that's an advantage for them is the advertising business and being able to not just offer, but sell better data to advertisers on who's actually listening to podcasts because outside of Spotify, using podcasts downloads, or relying on some of these third-party tools to be able to tell you how well a show's actually doing is not the best way to actually determine if people are listening. There's so many shows out there that now have ghost downloads from people that we're downloading and subscribing to these shows back in 2014, 2015, 2016, that are no longer listening to those shows, but because of the metric of downloads, It's essentially an RSS feed. They don't know if you and I are actually listening to a show versus it actually being downloaded. I'm talking about more from Apple Podcasts and from other places outside of Spotify itself. Spotify's advantage is the fact that it can provide data just as precise is what it does in streaming, essentially. Are these people listening for at least 30 seconds? Are they going and listening to the middle? And I know some of this exists with Chartable and some of these other tools, but that's the advantage that Spotify has. So if you can essentially have that, offer that to your advertisers and then say, hey, this is the better data to base it on, not self-reported podcast downloads, which is a very tough metric to use if you're trying to base that purely on advertising. This is how you can ensure that you're reaching the right people. And I do think if you have enough of a catalog there and you're able to monetize enough, then in principle, you could then pull the advertisers yourself. And if you pull them, then I think that helps also attract the shows. And you can become not just the dominant platform, but the dominant platform that can monetize as well. [00:59:08] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, well see. You have a lot of insight. You're a podcaster, so you have a lot of insight into what Spotify's doing. As a podcaster, how is the platform for you? Do you get a lot of listeners from Spotify?  [00:59:18] Dan Runcie: There's other platforms that I still get more listeners for. Like, I still get more from Apple Podcasts, I would say. But it's up there though. It's interesting because even though I get more listeners from Apple Podcast, if I put a link in my newsletter that has the Apple Podcast link or the Spotify link of where to listen, more people click on the Spotify link. So that also makes me think, okay, one of these is measuring what's already been there, people that could have been listened to my podcast since 2019 to prove my point when I started it, versus what's capturing things now. And I think as we're just seeing Spotify continue to grow and we're seeing more and more stats of how, I forget the exact metric, but them becoming one of the more popular places for listeners to listen to a podcast. The data that I'm seeing on my side, even though I haven't precisely calculated it, more so a gut check of when I'm checking my newsletter analytics, I'm like, okay, I can see where this is trending. [01:00:12] Glenn Peoples: I think it helps Spotify that they're just an innovative company that is always improving the product, right? So, you know, who knows what they'll end up doing with podcast. They could revolutionize how we listening to it.  [01:00:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The other thing, too, that made me think of it, you mentioned audiobooks earlier, and I feel like there's an opportunity for innovation there because audiobooks themselves, I think to date have in many ways just been looked at as another channel that's a companion to people either buying a physical book or downloading something on a tablet to read. But how can the art of creating an audio podcast feel similar to these high-production podcasts that we hear that sound like they are, you know, made by multiple people in a studio show? I think Malcolm Gladwell did something like this with his most recent book the Think Like Strangers, I forget the exact name, but something like Strangers where it sounded like his podcast does. You know, it's high produced, you can get a bit more variety. It's not just some voice actor that they paid, you know, some flat fee for, and then that's just what's uploaded as the audiobook. So if you're able to create that as its own unique experience, I think that there's an opportunity there with audiobooks. So I'm interested to see if the art and the content itself around those will continue to improve. [01:01:31] Glenn Peoples: I would love a company like Spotify to breathe some life into audiobooks. I used to do a lot more audiobooks than I used to. And you know, what's changed? I think what's changed is just the podcast platforms that are available that make it easier to listen to and find podcasts. I'm not much of an audiobook buyer anymore. But I would say that my audiobook listening has been cannibalized by podcast.  [01:01:54] Dan Runcie: And I think some of that, too, like if it's in the same app, it's something that you're already using. I feel like there's an opportunity there because although it's been a while since I've used the Audible app, I have to imagine that the Spotify app is much less friction to be able to be like, I want to listen to this. Boom, here, let me click and listen to the thing. And it's a game of, yeah, how can you make it as easy as possible for the consumer. So yeah, it'd be interesting to see how that space develops. The last topic I want to chat about though before we end things is TikTok. I know you've written about this recently. TikTok has been trying to get into a number of areas, specifically streaming, and I'd be curious to hear your take on them, not just their potential in streaming, but what their strategy is overall in music and how you see them working, either not just alongside, but also competing with not just the streaming services, but other companies that are part of this, that are part of this chain of the, you know, music ecosystem. [01:02:53] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, I think TikTok is fascinating as far as TikTok launching a streaming service. I mean, that makes perfect sense. I mean, why would you not? TikTok sends a lot of traffic to streaming services. If you could keep people on the platform, or at least on an app from the same company, rather than sending them off to Apple Music or YouTube or Spotify after they see a video on TikTok, I think that's probably a better, I would say, it's a better listener experience. But you know, what we've seen over the years is people use the apps they want to use. You can't force-feed people an app. You can stick it on a device. It doesn't mean they're going to use it. People will use what they want to use and TikTok would have to build a pretty amazing music streaming platform for people to use it. And I guess the question is could they grow the market rather than just take customers away from the Spotifys and Apple Musics in the YouTubes? Yeah, I guess so. There's always that, but I always think of it as more of a zero-sum game that TikTok would be taking business away from others. On paper it makes perfect sense. You know, Billboard's done a really good reporting, had some really good articles about the impact TikTok has had on the business. You know, most recently there was an article about how it's just kind of, thrown A&R executives' lives into disarray because it's, it's very hard to capitalize on TikTok success, which everybody wants. It's much more random than sending something to streaming services or sending something to radio and promoting it. It's much more grassroots and not so top-down. So it's unpredictable on what's going to hit. And that's not a good way to promote music, not knowing what people are going to end up listening to, so it makes labels' lives difficult in that aspect. On the other hand, I think labels are probably pretty happy that there's an app out there that customers want to spend a lot of time with and potentially spend money on, and that they are licensing music too and they'll get royalties from. So, you know, labels don't build these platforms themselves. They have to count on other companies to do that. And I read articles every now and then that says that TikTok is going to be the death of labels. Now labels have to partner with these platforms. That's what they do. They don't build the platforms themselves. And TikTok has a great platform. And so it's another one to work with. The question is, is it ultimately good for the labels? Yeah, maybe they honestly don't have a choice. They have to work with TikTok. They have to go where the consumers are. But I think it's ultimately probably a net win even though it's, really thrown things into disarray and changed how people discover music, and it's just not as simple a path as it used to be in promoting music and get people to listen to it. [01:05:28] Dan Runcie: You brought up a few things that I want to circle back on because I think they're important to highlight. One, if you look TikTok's overall strategy, I agree this is something that they should naturally do. If you're the person that has the top of the funnel, then you would want to identify ways that you could do it yourself instead of having another app that is relying on yours to capture that same traffic and to capture that same business opportunity. That said, does that mean that you will succeed? Not necessarily. I think as we both understand and see, it takes a lot to have a platform that gets to where Apple Music has gotten to, to get to where Spotify's gotten to, even where Amazon Music and some of these other digital streaming providers have gotten to. It takes a considerable amount of time to get there. So being able to do that effectively and being able to necessarily grow the market and do that, I think it's tough. Are there regions that TikTok is going to reach that Spotify and Apple have not already spent millions of dollars trying to reach? Probably not, which does turn it into a bit of a zero-sum game. And then are you going to be able to try to offer it at a different cost? Are you going to try to do any of these things that really make it stand out? Not necessarily. And I think one of the bigger challenges, too, is just the consumer behavior that someone has when they're going into TikTok. It has grown as fast as it has because it's an app that doesn't require much active engagement. You can sit there and passively scroll through everything. It's a very passive entertaining experience. Streaming is not that. You have to go and find who you want to listen to. Even if you want to go check out the latest album, you have to go type in that person's name unless they're the biggest star in the world, and they may happen to be on the app when you open it. You got to type in the person's name to figure that out. So shifting that consumer mindset, I think is tough if that's what they're used to in your app. So I think that piece of it is going to be a bit of a challenge for them. And I think in general, we're kind of seeing TikTok adopt a bit of that Facebook strategy, where Facebook is a company that has tried to do any and everything because they're like, hey, we have billions of users. We are the biggest platform in the world. Let's try to do all these things. And more likely than not, Facebook doesn't succeed at a lot of these things. It's more likely to succeed at the things that are naturally aligned with why someone would want to be on Facebook to begin with, and whether it's Facebook's dating services or any of these other things that just didn't necessarily take off the way it could, I think that there could be, you know, some similar type of risk if you're thinking about TikTok. Even though it is aligned with music, even though there's a lot of these things, the mindset that a consumer has when they are going into a streaming service that requires on-demand activity is very different than a passive social media experience. [01:08:13] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, I think those are really good points. There's no guarantee that TikTok is going to make a winning music subscription service if that's what it chose to do. It's just not that easy. I mean, there are companies with big head starts who have built really good apps and have a lot of momentum. And you know, the thing that I've noticed over the years with subscription services and music streaming, in general, is that you have to have an excellent product. Having a pretty good product just doesn't cut it anymore. And there are a lot of music services that have been pretty good that have just gone out of business 'cause pretty good doesn't do it. With ByteDance and with TikTok, you have to assume that they could put together pretty good service. I would bet, better than average. And can they do better than that? Possibly. And what could they do differently that would transform it? And maybe that's the question. Do they need to do a transformative subscription service? Or can they just do something that's a little more traditional and not try to build a new mousetrap? Maybe that's the better option. You know, I'm not sure, but I think, people shouldn't expect that TikTok is just going to clean up the competition because they have a very popular short-form video app. That's just a different experience than what they would be getting into.  [01:09:22] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Streaming is a very different game. It'd be interesting to see how it plays out. But Glenn, before we wrap things up and let you go, how do you think the Global Music Index that you created, how do you think things will look at 2023? What's your take on how you think certain things will play out in the index? [01:09:39] Glenn Peoples: There's so much negative forecast out there for 2023. There's a lot of economic experts saying that there's going to be a recession in 2023. You know, normally I would say, boy, probably pretty good. You know, the time to buy a stock is not when it's high. It's time to buy is when it's low. So right now the index is starting from would be starting year at a pretty low place. It's just that they're pretty dark clouds on 2023. It's really hard to say how it's going to play out. There's just a lot of really bad expectations for next year. So I think that as far as these stocks have fallen, they're not out of the woods yet. And I don't think we can assume that they're going to turn around and start growing next year. But if you look at 2022 as kind of a correction to maybe some stocks that were overvalued, then they're starting in a better place. [01:10:27] Dan Runcie: That's true. Maybe the overvaluation may have some, or the overvaluation of the overcorrection rather could lead things off to a good start. So it'll be exciting to see for sure. And we'll definitely be keeping an eye on the index itself. Once again, good job creating that. I think a lot of people were looking for a way to just capture everything that's going in the industry. So it'll be good to continue tracking it. And Glenn, thanks for coming on. It was great to touch base on so many important topics, and I'm sure we can have a similar conversation like this soon.  [01:10:54] Glenn Peoples: Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.  [01:10:56] Dan Runcie: Thank you. [01:10:59] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 17 Nov 2022 09:00:00 -0000 What Spotify and YouTube’s Billions Playlists Tell Us About Streaming full Dan Runcie Today's episode is a two-parter. Part 1 is on Spotify and YouTube’s billion streams and views playlists. After reviewing both lists, there’s a lot to learn about the streaming era and the strategy for both platforms respectively. I broke it all down with Tati Cirsiano, a music analyst at MIDiA Research. Spotify’s list is more reflective of passive consumption. Spotify’s top-performing songs are more correlated with radio hits than YouTube, which is a more active consumption experience. YouTube’s Billion Views Club has more international stars than Spotify. With streaming continuing to grow across the world and plateauing in the United States, YouTube’s list more reflects future music consumption.  Part 2 is with Glenn Peoples from Billboard. We talk about its new Global Music Index that takes the publicly traded stocks from the biggest music companies in music to give an overall picture of stock performance for the industry.  Here’s everything Tati, Glenn, and I covered on the show: [3:03] Immediate takeaways from each Billions Club playlists [5:15] How “meme traffic” impacted both platforms [9:37] Passive consumption vs. active consumption [12:11] International differences between Spotify and YouTube [14:57] The Justin Bieber conundrum  [16:36] How Spotify and YouTube enable fragmentation of fandom [21:26] Gym-going and seasonality’s impact on streaming numbers [26:14] Short-form videos eventual effect on YouTube streaming [27:55] YouTube vs. Spotify competition intensifying  [35:58] MIDiA’s upcoming predictions report [38:33] What % of the Global Music index Spotify takes up [39:23] Why music industry stocks fell further than the overall market [46:25] Streaming platforms increasing prices [50:22] What goes into calculating Average Revenue Per User for Spotify [55:23] Spotify’s podcast strategy & acquisitions [59:18] How much of Trapital’s audience comes from Spotify [1:02:53] Why TikTok should launch it’s own streaming service [1:09:39] What Glenn expects 2023 to look like Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Tati Cirisano, @tatianacirisano, Glenn Peoples, @theglennpeoples   Download The Culture Report here: https://trapital.ck.page/a23b7a6a4a Sponsors: MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Tatiana Cirisano: Spotify's list is more of an accurate reflection of what the passive majority listens to, whereas YouTube is more of a reflection of what people are actively fans of and actively engaging, which is interesting because that was a question that we asked in our last episode where we were like, how do we measure, like, what are new ways to measure consumption? And I said, well, it'd be interesting if we could actually measure, you know, active consumption versus passive. And now here I'm looking at these two lists, I was like, oh, this is actually potentially an example of that. [00:00:37] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:57] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is a two-parter. We normally don't do two-parters, but these topics were so closely linked, it made perfect sense, so we had to do it. The first part of this episode is a conversation I had with Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research, and we talked about the Billions Clubs. Spotify and YouTube both have their respective playlists that have over a billion streams and views respectively. So we talked about what can we learn from both of these playlists together. What does it tell us about the most popular songs that do well on streaming, but also what can it tell us about these two platforms individually? What are the differences between the two playlists? Are there certain songs that perform better on others versus that and why? And what that means more broadly for the sector, Just given how big these companies are. Second part of the conversation, I talked to Glen Peoples who works for Billboard, and he recently released this Global Music Index, which is a value-based index that takes the publicly traded stocks from many of the biggest companies in music, combines them, and gives us an overall picture of how we can look at the performance of the music industry, at least in the publicly traded companies. Hint, it's been a down year for stocks overall, so nothing too surprising there. But we talk specifically about Spotify, who stock is noticeably in a tougher place, at least from, where it was year to date compared to some of the other companies. So we talked about why that is, what to expect, and more. Really great conversations. Let's start things off with Tati. Hope you enjoy it.  [00:02:31] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have Tati Cirisano back with us from MIDiA Research and we're going to dive into the Billions playlists that are both from Spotify and YouTube. What a fascinating list that's like a tripped-out memory lane, telling you what songs are popular, but also how these lists are different. I feel like they both have somewhere between like 3 to 400 songs, but there's a whole bunch of different trends here. I know that we both have a bunch of notes here, but Tati, I'll start with you. What stuck out to you most when you were looking through these lists?  [00:03:03] Tatiana Cirisano: Oh my gosh. So there's so many things. I guess I'll start with the things that stuck out to me that don't have to do with differences, but just stuck out to me in terms of just looking at both. And one was that I felt like there was definitely a dominance of songs and artists from the last decade and maybe even just the last five years, which was interesting to me because there's been such a debate recently about is old music or what we call catalog, which is often not actually old music. But is it sort of cannibalizing new music? Does new music have more to compete with? And that whole argument. So it was interesting to see that there actually weren't that many or weren't relatively as many older songs. I believe the YouTube Billion Views Club had, like, one song from the 70s. It makes more sense with YouTube. And I think YouTube had even more dominance with more recent songs. And that kind of makes sense because if it's visual-based, maybe some of these songs we don't have the music videos, or maybe they're not as good. But I thought that that was interesting just off the bat from both ways.  [00:04:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I would agree. I think that YouTube's list did trend much younger, and there's a whole MTV effect of just what music videos look like then and now. But I also feel like what's important is with both Spotify and YouTube, that when these platforms accelerated in growth, a lot of the artists that were releasing music around those times accelerated and growth too. And I feel like I saw some trends there. If I think about YouTube and its rapid growth phase more so in the early 2010s. There were a few songs there that I saw, whether it was like a party rock anthem or songs like that, that streamed really well on YouTube. Still nowhere near a billion streams on Spotify. And I think on the flip side of that, on Spotify, there were a few songs that were in that late 2010s era when Spotify was in its rapid growth phase that weren't on YouTube's playlist. So that was one of those interesting things. Like, for example, I think Drake's song Nice for What, a billion streams on Spotify. It's in the Billions Club, but it wasn't on YouTube's list. And I remember that music video, I think it's at the skating rink and he has, like, Issa Rae and all these people in it. So there was definitely some influence of the platforms too.  [00:05:15] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. And that reminds me, too, of with the influence of platforms, it felt like, there were, so okay on both platforms. I felt like there were a lot of songs that were driven by, like, a viral hit or a novelty, which kind of just goes to show how embedded music has become in, like, meme culture and social media and just like online culture in general. But it also, like, looking at the differences within that, it felt like, this is like, I mean, you'd need to do more of a real, like, study and look at the actual numbers on this, but just from scrolling over the list, it seemed like, more of the TikTok traffic is going to Spotify. Like, there were a lot of songs that had a billion streams that I just remember being moments on TikTok, like Dreams and the Roses, Imanbek remix, like those songs and many others had passed a billion streams on Spotify, but had not cracked the YouTube list. And then on the flip side, YouTube had a lot of stuff that was more, like, just these, memes about, I'm trying to think of an example, like the Dame tu Cosita song and video, like that. There were actually an abundance of songs on the Billion Views Club for YouTube that were linked to these videos, including Crazy Frog.  [00:06:24] Dan Runcie: I saw that.  [00:06:25] Tatiana Cirisano: It like that was just, like, that was a moment in time in meme culture that kind of preceded TikTok humor. I don't know, like you can almost track meme culture's impact based on these two platforms lists as well with TikTok driving more traffic to Spotify and sort of the old, almost like Vine humor going more to YouTube.  [00:06:45] Dan Runcie: That point makes me think of two things I also saw as well. So I believe the first YouTube video that hit a billion streams was Psy's Gangnam Style. I don't think that song has a billion streams or anywhere close to that on Spotify's list, which I think speaks to your point about just the visual nature of that. And that of course is a pre-TikTok era. The other song I think that lines up with this a bit, and this is because of memes within the music video itself is Nelly and Kelly Rowland's Dilemma music video. That is the most popular YouTube video that Nelly has, and I'm pretty sure that Kelly Rowland likely has too. And it's because of this one scene in the music video where Kelly is texting on this 2002's phone and she has Microsoft Excel open, and that's what she's actually using to text. So they're both, you know, generating money. And Kelly was even talking about an interview semi-recently talking about, I didn't even know what Microsoft Excel was. They just told me to type. But over time, and now we obviously have a different relationship with texting. That type of event can blow up on YouTube in a way that not necessarily going to Spotify.  [00:07:54] Tatiana Cirisano: Right. Like, there's an inherent difference in just what you're going to do on these platforms. Like, there's a number of reasons why you might look up a music video on YouTube. Maybe you like the song, maybe there's a celebrity cameo, maybe somebody told you that. It's a crazy, wild video and you're just curious. Like, there's a lot more reasons I think than there are reasons why you would stream a song. So that just by definition kind of opens up a lot of differences in these lists.  [00:08:18] Dan Runcie: The other thing, too, that you mentioned earlier was the decades and how YouTube's list only had one song that I think that was before 1980 and there was only a handful even from the 80s and the 90s as well. And while Spotify had a bit more, I still think it was quite less. Last time I looked at Spotify's list, it was less than 10% of the 300-plus songs that were more than 20 years old. And I have to assume YouTube may be even closer to 94-96%. Part of that, I think, as you mentioned, is music videos, but I also wonder is part of it with Spotify having a bit more of a close link to radio play and just things that were popular on the radio at the time. Like for instance, a song like Goo Goo Doll's, Iris, that was on Spotify's list is not on YouTube's list. I don't necessarily think the song had like a memorable music video necessarily, but I think it's the audio of it, it makes people think of, you know, what was that movie that it was in? I'm trying to remember the movie that it was in. It'll come to me, but there was some 90s movie that was in, I'm drawing a blank on it right now. Oh, City of Angels. So it was in that, and then, but I just don't think that people, like, recognized the music video they would like, it wasn't necessarily this big, like TRL hit the way that like a boy band song was.  [00:09:37] Tatiana Cirisano: I noticed the same thing where looking over Spotify's list, it felt very much like just a list of every radio hit of the past 10 or 20 years that it was really, really tied to that. And I wonder, like, this kind of brings me to another thing that I wanted to talk to you about with this, which is how my sort of theory with another reason that these are different is that Spotify's list is more of an accurate reflection of what the passive majority listens to, whereas YouTube is more of a reflection of what people are actively fans of and actively engaging, which is interesting because that was a question that we asked in our last episode where we were like, how do we measure, like, what are new ways to measure consumption? And I said, well, it'd be interesting if we could actually measure, you know, active consumption versus passive. And now here I'm looking at these two lists, I was like, oh, this is actually potentially an example of that. And the other reason that came to me is because at MIDiA, we've recently done a report on looking at different types of entertainment and how much of consumption is in the background of another activity versus focused. And YouTube, like, people that watch music videos on YouTube are much more likely to be doing that as a focused activity in the foreground rather than something in the background, which makes sense because it's visual, there's, you know, social features to it, et cetera whereas they're a lot more likely to just put on their Spotify music in the background of something else. So I wonder if that's also part of the reason that Spotify seems to have more of a tie to radio and those songs that were just kind of popular for everyone whereas YouTube is more what are the songs and artists and videos that people are like engaging with. [00:11:09] Dan Runcie: That's a good point. It makes me think, well, on the YouTube side, I'm much more likely to listen to a YouTube playlist run, right? Like, I normally don't do that when I'm watching YouTube. I know YouTube has playlist, but I'm more likely to put a Spotify playlist on, which speaks to that. And I know some of the stuff that you've researched and the team has researched on MIDiA as well, is just this whole nature of probably a bit more on the digital stream provider side, but how to measure active versus passive engagement of, or actually listening to a song. And maybe this is a closer way to get a gauge for that because, you know, especially when these artists have these big week sales that'll come out and we'll see the numbers come through, it would be great to know, okay, how many people said yes, I want to listen to this Taylor Swift song from the Midnights album as opposed to people being like, oh, it just happened to be what's dominating today's top hits or if I'm listening to, you know, the number 50 or the top 50 songs in the US. These are the ones that happen to play.  [00:12:11] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, yeah. That makes total sense. And I think the other reason why Spotify's list probably is more tied to radio is because it's a lot more, like the user base is less international than YouTube 'cause that was the biggest difference, looking at the two lists was just how few internet, like non-Western artists there were on Spotify's Billions Club versus YouTube's.  [00:12:36] Dan Runcie: That stuck out too. And I think YouTube as well also had a list of artists that had the most Billion Views Club songs were and artists like Ozuna were high up on that list. I want to say he had at least 10 videos on YouTube that hit a billion. But on Spotify, it's far less. I think J Balvin was another one too, where there was a big discrepancy there. And yeah, I think the fact that YouTube has had much more of a market share and in general listenership in these regions outside of, you know, US and Western Europe as opposed to YouTube. So maybe part of that, where it's a signal of like, okay, this is where Spotify's clearly trying to grow and has been trying to get more share in. So, like, if Spotify achieved its goal, then it likely would have more of that and vice versa. [00:13:28] Tatiana Cirisano: Right. And then it is YouTube's sort of a more accurate representation of, like, what the music landscape of the future looks like in that way where it will be less dominated probably by Western artists. As you know, streaming sort of infiltrates all these other places. And that is so interesting for, like, the fragmentation conversation that we've been having because it means things are just further fractured and, you know, there's going to be lots of artists and songs on these lists that we've probably never heard of. Like, it was so interesting to me because part of the, like, excitement that I had to do this little project of, like, opening the two and comparing them was, I was excited to be surprised. I was like, I want to see what things are on the list that I'm like, I have never heard of that. Or what is that? How did that end up here? And I did not have that moment once looking at Spotify's playlist. But looking at YouTube's, there were so many videos and so many artists that I just had never heard of, and that was exciting to me. So I wonder how much that's a product of YouTube specifically versus that being what will happen inevitably when streaming is more widespread. [00:14:34] Dan Runcie: And were most of the surprises that you had, were most of them from an international perspective, or were there any Western-based music surprises?  [00:14:43] Tatiana Cirisano: That's a good question. There were definitely a handful of Western ones that I can't think of right now, but the majority were probably just artists I'd never heard of or songs, yeah, artists I didn't know anything about that had billions and billions of views. Yeah, I don't know. Let me think about that.  [00:14:57] Dan Runcie: Yeah. While you're thinking about that, one thing that stuck out to me was there were certain artists that I think surprised me both in a way of, oh, I thought there would've been more here, or there were actually a bit less here. One artist is Justin Bieber. So I know that Justin Bieber is very popular, but if you would've asked me who were the biggest artists of the 2010s, I probably would name four names, maybe even five names before I named his name. But if you look at, even if you're just looking at Western artists, the artist that is the one with the most songs on Spotify and the one that I believe has the most songs on YouTube as well, Justin Bieber is in the top three of both of those lists. I believe it's at least nine songs on Spotify and at least maybe 10 or so on YouTube. And there's something about that fandom that I didn't necessarily, I mean, I knew that he was huge. I knew that there were so many songs that were quite popular, especially the album that had, like, Sorry, and Love Yourself. Like, that one was huge, but I thought that there were other artists, like for instance, an artist like Beyoncé or even someone like Taylor Swift, who, I don't believe that Beyoncé had a song on the YouTube list at all, or a song that's really close to that. And at least up to now, I don't think that Taylor Swift has a song on Spotify's Billions List. I think that Blank Space will probably get there eventually, but I don't think she has a song this moment that's on that list. So to see the two of them who I think a lot of people largely think are two of the largest musicians in of the past decade, but to see someone like Bieber just have hit after hit on both of these lists, I was like, wow. [00:16:36] T a t iana Cirisano: That's so interesting, the Justin Bieber conundrum of all of this. Okay, I have a couple of thoughts on that. I think, so he was sort of Made on YouTube, right? That's where he started posting clips. That's where he was discovered. And I think something else that this ties into that I wanted to bring up is how, with YouTube, the artists that reach these Billion Views Club, I think probably are more likely to have sort of built a community on YouTube which Justin Bieber did, and that was kind of like the roots of his fandom. So when I was reading YouTube's, like, blog about the Billion Views Club, and there were a bunch of artists' quotes, and a lot of them had to do with the artist saying, you know, like, YouTube was a place to build a community. And Alan Walker was one of the artists who said that. And he was someone who, he's an electronic music artist who when I was looking at the YouTube Billions Views Club, he came up again and again and I was like, it seemed random to me because he's a great artist. He has a big community of fans, but I just didn't think that he would have billions of views. But he seems to credit the community aspect for that. So I think that could be part of it. But then as soon as you said, oh but he's also one of the top artists on Spotify, I'm like, okay, but that's a completely different story because there's no community building on Spotify. So is it just that the fans are, that obsessed with the music that they're, you know, maybe migrating over and streaming there as well, or are we just misremembering, you know, how big of an impact Justin Bieber had? And then that brought me to thinking about how, I mean I think this relates to Taylor as well, but they both built their fan bases at a time when things were just kind of a lot less congested. So I think it was in many ways, easier to get a billion views or billion streams on something a couple of years ago than it is now, now that people's tastes are so fragmented. So maybe that's also part of the reason why, like, I wonder how many of those streams came from, you know, pre-2015 or something versus from then on. I wonder when they were accumulated. So yeah, that's sort of my rant of thoughts.  [00:18:41] Dan Runcie: That one about Bieber is a good one because I didn't think about that, but I think it's absolutely right. He was doing all those cover songs of all these other artists when he's like a teenager. He's growing the base there. And to the point that you had brought up in an article a couple of months ago, we talked about the last time we're on the podcast, he is in a different category than someone like a Beyoncé or Taylor Swift. Like, when Taylor made Teardrops On My G uitar. I don't even like, that was probably around the same time that YouTube started. Like in some ways her fandom predated so much of what people know as music. And of course, Beyonce became a solo artist from Destiny's Child well before YouTube even started. So I think that's a good point there with some of it. The Spotify thing though is interesting, yeah. I mean, I think those songs did get a lot of radio play as well. Like everything off of that album, that Bieber's album that Sorry came on as well. Like, they got a ton of radio plays. So that ties into the Spotify piece of it, too, and maybe a little bit of misremembering of certain things of, well, and you know, like I'm a little bit older than the custom Bieber demo, so there could be some of it there where they may not hit me in the same circles that, the same way that, you know, someone did with Beyoncé for instance. [00:19:53] T a t iana Cirisano: Yeah. I have another thought related to this that I feel like I'm struggling to articulate, but I'm going to try, which is that on the Spotify list and the YouTube list, I thought there was more overlap when it came to which older artists were on the list than there was when it comes to newer artists. And I wonder if that is also sort of further proof of this fragmentation that's happening because it would make sense that if a decade ago, two decades ago, people kind of had less to choose from to listen to. Everybody kind of has the same favorite artists from those decades that they've listened to enough to reach a billion streams. Yet now that people have more choice and things are fragmented more, their favorite artists and songs today are more varied.  [00:20:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think there's something there because if you think about it, the lists are quite similar. And I think even if you look at YouTube's list, which I think even though YouTube's list is less reliant on radio, the biggest songs they have from the 80s and 90s are still the same songs that people have heard in bars and in stadiums and in TV commercials for decades now. So there's consistency there. Things do start to get a bit segmented to your point of where things are right now. So both of these platforms, in many ways enable the fragmentation of fandom. Their algorithms made it easy for people to have their own circles. So I do think that that piece of it is true. So I think that's a good point.  [00:21:18] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. Okay. I'm glad I could put that into words 'cause it was one of those things where I had this thought and was like, does this make sense?  [00:21:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Oh, yeah.  [00:21:25] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. Fascinating. [00:21:26] Dan Runcie: Another thing too, that stuck out, this stuck out a bit more on Spotify's playlist than others, but how certain songs have shifted from when radio, for instance, was more playing songs that I think people more often wanted to hear in their cars. But Spotify, it's on-demand, it's everywhere. I think, for instance, workout music is something that we've seen a pretty large uptick on with Spotify. A song like Eminem's Till I Collapse, which is in the billions playlist for Spotify, I don't think I heard that song once on the radio. Maybe I'm misremembering things just relative to how big Eminem's hits were in the early 2000s. But that song is one of his most played songs. And I think it's because it's a song that a lot of guys listen to when they want to work out. Maybe it's something that they also will play, like, I don't think they to like LA Fitness necessarily like on the speakers, but I think it's more so of like a, no, let me go listen to this while I try to, you know, set PR on the bench press or whatever. So I feel like there's things like that, also seasonal music, right? Of course, just Mariah Carey and some of the records and accolades that All I Want For Christmas Is You has continued to reach and all of the remixes and versions she's done of that song, like that doesn't happen without streaming, right? [00:22:41] Tatiana Cirisano: I was going to say September was also on there, which, you know, every September everybody starts to sing. That is a seasonal song. So, yeah, no, I totally agree with you. And I also noticed that both lists had a lot of, like, upbeat music, like what you're saying, like stuff that people work out to. And I feel like it's for different reasons. Like I'm Spotify, maybe those types of songs dominate because like you're saying, they're the things that people put on in the background of something. Whereas on YouTube, the reason might be because those tend to have more vibrant videos. Like, I feel like more people are likely to watch videos for, you know, an upbeat reggaeton song than like some acoustic, I don't know, Taylor Swift song, even though she's a massive star. Like, overall, you know? And on that note, I don't know if this is just my, you know, anecdotal takeaway, you'd have to, again, like actually go through all the songs and do some data crunching. But I felt like Spotify had actually more varied in terms of like upbeat songs were on there. But also a lot of, Coldplay, a lot of like earlier Ed Sheeran, like, those more like, not so upbeat, more acoustic songs, whereas YouTube barely had any of those because again, I think there may be less likely to be something people watch the video of. I don't know. But that was interesting just how uptempo the two lists were.  [00:23:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I would need to go back and check to see if like a song like Coldplay's Yellow. Is that on YouTube's list?  [00:24:08] Tatiana Cirisano: It's on Spotify's, but I don't think it's on Youtube's. [00:24:10] Dan Runcie: And that would speak to that, right? It's a more somber video. I'm pretty sure Chris Martin's head is laying like sideways on the pavement in that video, right, or on the bed, if I remember correctly. So yeah, it's just not going to be as, I think, yes. Like, if you have five minutes, like, this is the thing that I want to be able to get to. So yeah, it's such a fascinating distinction. And I think with it, it's clear that with both of these platforms, the two of them are really trying to compete more and more with each other, with both Spotify trying to get more and more international, YouTube trying to have more and more influence just in terms of the overall revenue that they generate for the industry. So I do want to talk about the two of them as companies distinctly, but before we get there, I think that the international piece and just how revenue is generated for each of these streams or each of these views will be an interesting distinction over time because, especially with Spotify, these streams that the artists are generating don't necessarily get weighted the same in terms of the pro rata and the pools that they get put into and then getting separated. So if one artist has a bunch of streams from a bunch of their fans, but a lot of their fans are in places where the subscriptions cost $2 per month to subscribe to Spotify, or there's a over index of free accounts versus paid, like these numbers don't necessarily reflect that, which is fine. I think we're just trying to get a gauge for what listening looks like. But the revenue may actually look very different for, let's say, thinking about like one of these, you know, 80s or 90s radio hits. The person that's listening to that account may be more likely to be paying 10 or maybe soon $11 a month for Spotify subscription if I'm just thinking about what that consumer may be like and therefore essentially getting more revenue per stream than some of the newer artists that may have a younger aboard international fan base. So that was another point that I thought was interesting. We won't have that data, but just based on inference, I feel like that's a trend in terms of where it's going.  [00:26:14] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, that makes sense. And I also wonder, like, if short form video becomes the more dominant form of consuming video, and the people that are watching music videos on YouTube shift to watching 32nd videos that use music on shorts, like, what will that do to the revenue mix? And it'll also depend on if the way that UGC platforms payout to the music industry changes where it's no longer this, you know, blanket payment for uses and is more per use. I think there's a lot that could get shifted around there. And I wonder if, like, does that mean YouTube is sort of cannibalizing its own, one of its own sources where people that are watching music videos are now going to shorts instead? Or is there an opportunity? Like, I think there's an opportunity for both. But I guess these are just questions that come up in my mind when I think about it.  [00:27:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's like in some ways it's similar to when Instagram adds stories, right? You're trying to get a sense, is this additive or is this going to take away, And I think YouTube's goal is that would be additive, but you're bringing up, I think, a valid thing where it's a little different with music and how you're registering streams. And I do think that there's a certain number of people that the better and better that shorts get, there's going to be less desire to go check out the actual video. And if these songs aren't registering, I think at least for a stream or a view, it's 30 seconds of listening needs to be registered, at least to be counted as a stream. Then if that doesn't happen on a short end, you're just getting these clips, then how does that impact the actual artist themselves, right?  [00:27:47] Tatiana Cirisano: No, you put it really well. Like, the better that shorts gets, the more it might actually threaten people going to YouTube to watch the video. [00:27:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So many interesting, I think, things to just dive into with this. But I think it's a good point to just talk more broadly about Spotify and YouTube in general, just in terms of where they are, how both of them want the other one. And I think based on these blog posts and based on a number of the letters that, the emails that you'll see from Lyor Cohen when he's describing where things are with YouTube. There's clearly a goal to, you know, establish itself as the leader in the market. And I think the growth has been pretty strong, but of course Spotify, I think still with nearly 200 million paid subscribers is definitely, you know, I think leading on that front. But where do you see this play out in terms of whether or not the trends and clearly what these playlists tell us about the tendencies of these two companies and also where things are going and who we think will be more or less dominant, let's say five years from now? Let's not say 10 years. I think that's a bit too far out, but let's say five years from now.  [00:28:51] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. Well, I've written about this, I've written a couple of blogs about this, but I think that YouTube does have a lot of advantages, especially for just where the music landscape is going. So one is that, in the streaming world, there's so little differentiation, right? All the DSPs kind of offer the same experience, the same catalog, the same price. But YouTube actually has a differentiating factor in that it's an audio-visual platform, and that they also have shorts, and they kind of have this ecosystem of apps that feed into each other. And that's sort of the second advantage, is that ecosystem aspect where, you know, based on our data, new generations of fans are really looking for more ways to actively participate in fandom and, you know, not just listen to a song, but create content around it. And YouTube has that it has this, you know, creator proposition. In many ways, YouTube was the first, arguably the first, you know, creator platform. The first place that you could post video content online and build a career around it. So, fans want this, but also artists need more ways to directly engage with their fans and monetize and actually not just be discovered, but sustain fandom and build communities. And that's the thing that I think so many social platforms lack, is they can help artists get discovered, but it's still really hard for them to connect the dots. So when you have YouTube, if you think about like the journey of, a fan through the ecosystem, you know, maybe they discover a song on shorts, and they can actually just click it and go straight, you know, go straight to the artist's YouTube page where maybe they watch the video that just came out and then they can go to YouTube music and stream the song, and it kind of creates this more frictionless experience. So I think we're already seeing a lot of consumers spend more of their music time on platforms that let them play around with the music, like the TikToks of the world and the shorts of the world. So if you have an ecosystem that combines that with streaming and the ability to just go seamlessly from one to the other, I think that's really powerful. And that's also why, you know, ByteDance launching a streaming service could really change the game. I think ByteDance and YouTube have a lot of the same advantages in that space. So I think YouTube is well positioned for the current era and what both artists are looking for and what fans are looking for, I guess is how I would frame that. [00:31:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think that YouTube's biggest advantage with this is that A, it still is under a much larger company that prints money from search, which is Google, right? So the fact that it in itself is the second largest search engine, largely because of Google, I think that piece of it will serve well. And I think secondly, the fact that when there's so many more things competing for your attention, whatever can make that have less friction, it can make it easier for people to access that platform as we've seen based on the rise of TikTok, I think those platforms do tend to win out in this area where you're ultimately trying to either capture or monetize attention. And the way that streaming is going, even though I know it can be lucrative for artists that own their assets or have favorable terms, it is a bit more of a measure of capturing attention for a lot of artists and being able to essentially market and position themselves out there to share what they have so that they can monetize elsewhere. And I do think that, I know I've talked about this previously, but just Spotify may be in a little bit more of a difficult position just given the fact that its ultimate goal is still to try to get more monetization from its non-music audio, whether it's your podcast or your audiobooks and stuff like that. [00:32:41] Dan Runcie: And I think that is a little bit of a tougher bet relative to YouTube, China. going with shorts and essentially try to compete more directly with TikTok or just other things in general that are making it easier. That said, I still think that Spotify is more strong from a product perspective of actually being able to, you know, ease of use of listening, being able to find and skip to the song, and being able to listen to a song on my phone you know, turning off the screen and then putting it in my pocket. And I know that YouTube does now allow you essentially to do that if you pay for subscription, but I think the friction, at least in the consumer's mind, is a little different than it is with doing that with Spotify, even because you do that with Spotify for free account especially. So I do think that there are some pros and cons there, but to your point, I do think that because YouTube is moving more in the direction of creating less friction for people to use its product and just the fact that it's visual, it's engaged, and to your other point, it's a bit more directly connected to fans being able to actively choose what they want to listen to, like the data and all those things are going to be more impactful and insightful there. [00:33:48] Tatiana Cirisano: Right, Right. So I think artists will kind of go to wherever the fans and the remuneration opportunities are, and I think YouTube is right now, providing more of that than Spotify is. Like, Spotify is a place where you can monetize scale, but you can't monetize niche. And YouTube is an ecosystem where you can monetize both. And I think there's no reason why streaming services in general shouldn't be a place where you can monetize both. But we haven't really seen that happen yet, and I think YouTube is moving in that direction. So I guess I come at this question because of the work that I do from such a perspective of what do the artists and the fans want. But of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that alone isn't going to, you know, make YouTube overtake Spotify. So I guess I'm a little bit biased just based on the work that I do.  [00:34:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I could see that. Because there's just so many other, there's just so many factors at play here. It's such a dominant position and at the end of the day, nearly 200 million people in the world are paying for the service and that is much higher than a lot of these other services. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out though. I feel like to some of the points you brought up earlier. Just going back to the Billions Club, if we had this conversation two years from now, I'd be interested to see, one, which old songs creep back up and which songs that have come up recently end up rising up and hitting those places, and does it line up with a lot of the points that we brought up here? So I'm excited to see what that looks like.  [00:35:15] Tatiana Cirisano: No, me too. And also what the pace will be like? Will there be just way more songs that have hit a billion streams in a shorter amount of time, or will the opposite trend happen because of fragmentation? Like, I'm not, I'm not really sure. So yeah, as always, excited to see definitely what comes next.  [00:35:30] Dan Runcie: Well, Tati, this is great. Thanks for coming to share these insights. And I think now I got to go back and count how many Crazy Frog videos there were on YouTube's list because when I saw that, I'm glad you brought that up. I was just like, my goodness, I forgot all about this trend.  [00:35:45] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, at least in that ratio, you know, we have confirmed YouTube wins.  [00:35:49] Dan Runcie: All right. Before we let you go, what do you have coming down the pipeline? Are there any upcoming research or any recent things that you've put out that listeners should keep an eye out for? [00:35:58] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, I would say coming up one of my favorite things that we do at MIDiA Research is our predictions report where every year, at the end of the year, we put out predictions for the coming year. And we also rate ourselves in terms of how much we got right from the past year. I believe our success rate is somewhere above 80%. [00:36:16] Dan Runcie: That's legit.  [00:36:17] Tatiana Cirisano: That's great. But yeah, so we always do I believe we always do a free webinar on that. It was free last year. So look out for that because it's a great chance to interact with us even if you're not a client. And it's a lot of fun.  [00:36:30] Dan Runcie: Awesome, we'll look out for that and, yeah. [00:36:33] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. [00:36:33] Dan Runcie: We'll have to see. I'm curious about what the hit rate will be this year. So definitely let us know what the success rate is... [00:36:39] Tatiana Cirisano: We will. [00:36:40] Dan Runcie: from the ones you made last year, heading into this year.  [00:36:42] Tatiana Cirisano: Awesome. Thanks, Dan.  [00:36:43] Dan Runcie: Awesome. Well, thank you. This is great.  [00:36:45] Dan Runcie: All right. Hope you enjoyed that first part with Tati breaking down the Billions Clubs. Here's my chat with Glenn Peoples. [00:36:53] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have Glenn Peoples with us who is from Billboard, and he just released this Global Music Index, which has stated that music stocks are down 44% this year, twice as much as the market. And Glenn, it'd be great to start here. What's going on? Why are socks down in the music industry? [00:37:13] Glenn Peoples: Hey, thanks for having me. Well, stocks are down in general. So it's not that just music that's having a tough time at the stock market. You know, a big component of the Global Music Index, which I created for Billboard is Spotify. And Spotify has had a tough year, just like Netflix has had a tough year. There's, I think, enthusiasm for streaming stocks was high at the beginning of the pandemic and dropped quite a bit since then. And investors are not looking at growth so much as looking at margins, looking at profits, and so they're expecting a lot more from streaming services right now. So it's a tough time to be a streaming service, whether you're Netflix, whether you're Spotify. You could say, well, the investors got carried away. They were overvalued. Yeah, maybe so. It's just been a tough year for streaming services and when Spotify is that big of a component of the index, it's down, well, as of yesterday, it's down 60% for the year. And so that's a lot of market cap that's gone and that's dragging down the index. And that's the short version.  [00:38:17] Dan Runcie: Right. So of course, it's a value-based index. Market cap is what defines it. And just so listeners know, how big of a factor is Spotify? Like, how much is their stock and their market cap weighted in terms of the overall index? [00:38:33] Glenn Peoples: I would say it's probably, again, this is just ballpark. It's probably about 15% of the value of the index. It was a lot more obviously. I would say right now at its current price, it's 10 to 15%. Universal Music Group is the biggest component of the index, and there's some other companies just a handful that really stand out above everybody else. Live Nation, Warner Music Group, Sirius XM are some of the big ones.  [00:39:02] Dan Runcie: The thing that stuck out to me about it is that, of course, Spotify stock is a huge piece of it, but even if you were to take out Spotify, the non-Spotify stocks in that index still are down more than the overall market has been this past year. So it also makes me think that there may be something going on that's a bit deeper than just streaming.  [00:39:23] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, it's not just streaming. You know, a lot of music companies had a great 2021 and I think that they just had further to fall. So there were some really high valuations and it just sets these companies up for a pretty big fall when investor sentiment turns and the market turns. And ever since the Fed announced in, I believe, December, that it was going to start raising interest rates. You know, stocks have started to fall and Spotify definitely started to fall then. And it's been a long, what is that, roughly 10 months since then. Things have calmed down a bit, but stocks are, boy, they're really having a tough time. It's really volatile a lot there. I think there's two ways to look at it. One is what's the value of the stock? What's the value of the company as valued by investors? And what's the potential of the company based on the company itself and the intellectual property it has? And those two don't always line up. You know, Spotify I still think is a very good company. I think it has a lot of work to do, but it's growing at a good clip and I think they have good people there. But when you are a streaming stock and you're facing really a once-in-a-generation kind of environment with very bad inflation you know, crazy, I was about to say unemployment, but unemployment is not that bad. It's just a very strange time in the market and a very strange macroeconomic climate. And you're seeing good companies have very difficult times with their stock prices. You know, Universal Music Group is down. But the market is down overall and Universal's not going to escape the just general downturn of the market. That's saying something because Universal is the biggest music company out there holding up market share very well has a big share of the top 10, any given time, big artists. But you can't correlate stock market performance with company performance just perfectly. It's a very strange time in the macroeconomic climate right now.  [00:41:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The interesting thing with the major record label stocks, and even some of these other companies that, yeah, even though they may not be streaming services themselves, when streaming makes up such a high percentage of the overall revenue for this entire industry, then Spotify's stock is in many ways going to be at least somewhat correlated to what we see with Universal given the fact that these companies have equity in each other, they're so dependent on each other, so a lot of that is given. You mentioned Live Nation earlier, and I think that their stock is interesting, too, because even though it isn't directly tied to streaming, that stock had hit record highs in the middle of the pandemic when there were no shows going on. So that just spoke to how much of a disconnect there was if you looked at how the company was actually doing in 2020 and even in 2021 when there were nowhere near as many shows as they had had in 2019, but they now are actually being able to realize more of that revenue. But the stock has adjusted in a lot of ways since. So there is a bit of this disconnect. I think there was just a good amount of excitement as well about what's happening in music as an investment class. Specifically, you looked at all of the catalog sales and the booms that happen thanks to the low-interest rates, and they're no longer low anymore. So you're also seeing that play a factor in, and you've also heard some of the acquirers of those catalogs expressing a bit of disappointment that the returns aren't quite what they thought the returns were going to be as well. So some of those things, I think, Brought some of the temperament and a lot of the companies that are in your index down to, I don't want to say necessarily down to earth, because I think there's still plenty of room for growth for a lot of them, but it's clear that we've moved past that era of the pandemic when things were just high for the pure speculation of where it could be in a few years. [00:43:15] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, I think the honeymoon is over for a lot of music stocks. You know, music as an asset class was really attractive. And, you know, look, just the fact that Universal is public and Warner is public once again, and there are numerous streaming services from Tencent Music and Cloud Music in China to Anghami and Spotify and Deezer. There's a lot of music companies that are publicly traded right now and that says a lot about music as an asset, as a segment, set aside the problems it's had in the last year. So music companies had a great 2020 and 2021, and it's been downhill since then. But the fact that there are a lot of publicly traded music companies right now, and so much investor interest in music catalogs like you mentioned, I think says a lot about music as an asset class, music as an investment in general. Look, five years ago, how many publicly traded music companies were there? I mean, Spotify has been public for about five years. Pandora was before it was bought by Sirius. You know, but you didn't have Tencent, you didn't have Cloud Music, you didn't have Anghami, you didn't have Deezer, you didn't have Reservoir Media, or Believe. Warner was private. Universal was private. So the fact that Wall Street has taken a liking to music, I think says a lot despite what the stock prices say right now.  [00:44:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I agree. The fact that this wasn't even possible, just shows what's happened. And a lot of companies, even outside of music, are starting to have money at least level back off now that the pandemic is over, now that the quarantine highs for a lot of these stocks are over. I'm interested to see where did things go from here, because I still believe that there's a ton of potential in each of these companies if the expectations and if the investors expectations of the market are where they need to be. I still think that music is a hot and a popular asset class, especially for investors. But is it 30 x value? Is it 30 x multiples for some of these catalogs that just bring 'em to certain valuations, or does it need to be more level? Because I do think that there's still plenty of value if those multiples and a lot of those things are where they should be. And even thinking about whether it's live entertainment or streaming in general, I think there's still plenty of room for growth. There's still a lot of opportunities there, but it's just being able to get a clear idea on, what is the actual TAM? What is the actual total addressable market for these areas? And I think if anything, you saw that challenge happen with a lot of the discourse around Netflix and what the future is there, you started to saw things drop right around they had, you know, around 220 million subscribers. I think Spotify was likely asking similar questions, too, and I still think there's growth, you know, for the right price there's always going to be something, but what that price would be and how many people are willing to pay for it, knowing that, of course, if it's a paid product, you're not going to hit all 8 billion people in the world. But there is some actual number out there. So I think the more clarity that there is on that, and of course that's part of the game to figure that out, but the closer that you can get to what that actually is, the more that investors can make sound decisions.  [00:46:25] Glenn Peoples: Yeah. You know, as we're talking now, there's a lot going on. We're a couple of hours away from Spotify releasing third-quarter earnings, which will, I'm not sure how much that'll say, look, that's backward-looking, but the company will take the opportunity to talk about a lot of things investors and analysts are curious about. Yesterday Apple announced it was raising prices for Apple Music and Apple TV Plus, and the Apple bundle. And YouTube premium prices went up as well, I believe, for the family plan only. And what do we see today? What we see Universal shares went up almost 12% and closed. They're trading the Netherlands, so that's already closed. In the middle of the day, Warner Music was up 7% to 8% at its best. Believe was up. Hipgnosis shares were up about, and those closed, that trades in London. That closed up about 8% I think. So investors, I think, get the news that they've really been waiting for, that prices are finally going to go up. You know, Netflix has raised prices. Pricing in streaming video on demand is a lot more flexible than it is for music and music prices have barely budged in over a decade, and executives have been saying for months and for years that prices will go up. But they haven't.  [00:47:45] Dan Runcie: Why do think it took this long?  [00:47:47] Glenn Peoples: Well, I think, companies were much more concerned about growing the market than maximizing revenue per customer. Is it more important to get the customer in the door or to charge more per customers is the question, and I think that they've been much more concerned about building the customer base and building relationships. And then at some point, it's a timing issue. When do you raise price? When can you do it without turning people off? And I think what we see these days with inflation is what it is, is companies might feel a little more emboldened to just raise price and think they can get away with it. Name one price that's not up in the last year. Except music streaming, it seems like everything else is up. And so somebody had to be, you know, first to do it and YouTube and Apple did it, which could embolden Spotify to do it finally. And I think my impression of Universal's shares going up almost 12% is that they think Spotify's going to raise prices as well. That doesn't seem like a bump just from Apple. That seems like a bump from broad price increases across the board. [00:48:51] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I would agree. I think that it's going to happen and the reason why I think it probably hasn't happened until this point I was talking to Will Page about this, who is a former chief economist at Spotify. And his perspective on it was that the difference, and it was mine as well, the difference between why a company like Netflix would continue to increase prices but Spotify hasn't a bit in line with the type of content that you're getting. In a lot of ways, Spotify and Apple are offering a lot of the same thing. Sure. I know Spotify has its podcasting, Apple has its podcasting and non-music audio, and we'll talk about that in a second. But I think when they're all offering the same thing, then there's a bit more pressure to try to offer price discounts and bundles and stuff like that as opposed to Netflix or some of those companies offering differentiated content. So you're more buying into something that you're going to get on Netflix that you can't get on Hulu or on Disney Plus, or on HBO Max or one of the other services. So I feel like there's a factor of it there. And I remember a few years ago there was some tests about it and some discussions where in Europe they were exploring what. 12.99 would look like, or maybe it was 13.99. But I didn't hear anything necessarily come definitive from that. Maybe it was 11.99, but there was some price increase that they were exploring in Europe. So it feels like it's inevitable that Spotify will join in and yeah, if your price is going to increase 10%, then your stock price will likely increase around 10% as well. [00:50:22] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, that makes sense. Most people look at how much revenue a company takes in every month. ARPU, average revenue per user, Spotify considers a metric lifetime value. And so it's not focused solely on price. Price plays into lifetime value, but so does churn rate, and the family plan is something that is reduced churn rate. As churn goes down, lifetime value goes up. I mean, for a subscription business, what you don't want are people coming in and out and churning in and churning out and taking time off or just leaving the subscription service for good. So if you cut down churn rate, the value goes up, and that's more value to creators. That's more value to publishers, to record labels, and to Spotify without raising price. If you can work on lifetime value without having to raise price, that might be the low-hanging fruit that you do in the meantime before you consider raising prices. And now it appears like everybody's to the point where they say, okay, now we can raise prices. [00:51:22] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. I think the fact that we're here says a lot. So we'll continue to see, and I'm sure that the next price increase after this probably won't take this long if this is the one that got us here. The thing with Spotify though, is I'm sure we'll see what investors feel more broadly about the company's strategy because non-music, audio and podcasting specifically has been part of its big bet on how it can have better margins, how it can just essentially make more money and have something that they can continue to grow. But there's been a lot of pushback. There's been a lot of canceled shows and studios, and some of that's standard for the industry. But some of it also feels like there's more and more question marks on, okay, they've spent billions on this. Is this going to work? Is this going to take off the way that they expect it to? What's your current take on the future outlook for Spotify's non-music audio strategy?  [00:52:16] Glenn Peoples: I think it's a good strategy. You build up a platform starting with music. You attract hundreds of thousands of users and then you turn it into an audio platform that's not just music and you introduce spoken word content. I think it's going to take quite a few years. So I think expecting changes, you know, we're only two years into some of their acquisitions for podcast studios and for platforms such as Megaphone. I know investors might not want to wait five years, but it's going to take a while. And, you know, long-term Spotify thinks that they can get some pretty good margins out of podcasts, margins that exceed what they get from music. They think that they can get the math when I look at audiobook margins, they bought an audiobook distributor called Findaway. And I think as retailer and distributor, Spotify gets about 60% of sales. Audiobook download margins are pretty good and that's about double what they're going to get for music. How much business is out there for audiobooks? Yeah, I mean, right now probably not that much, but over time I'm sure they can build it into something much more considerable. And, you know, if it's 60% gross margin, that's really good. You're not going to get that in music. You can build a platform based on music, but then eventually you got to go looking elsewhere for margins. And so I think it can work out for Spotify, it's just going to take a while and some people might not have much patience. I get that. But it's going to take a while.  [00:53:41] Dan Runcie: It's something I've thought a lot about because I understand that podcasting itself is something where the audience takes time to build. You want to be able to see these shows grow over time. But I also think that so much of their biggest growth has come from acquiring shows that are already popular. And I know they've made big acquisitions, whether as with Gimlet or with The Ringer, or they have the exclusive deal with, or the licensing deal with Joe Rogan. But how many others of those are out there that they haven't necessarily had? Are there going to be more in-house ones that can build up? Because I feel like one of the challenges I've seen with the strategy is that they've had a lot of money spent on getting these big-name celebrities to then have shows where they have other big-name celebrities as guests and things like that. And a lot of that is antithetical to what's made so much of podcasting be effective for a lot of folks. And sometimes it works well, but a lot of times it doesn't. And it's content. You do have to make some bets, but I'm interested to see how many more of those wins that are going to be out there for them, because that's the piece that at least gives you some bump 'cause at least we've seen the numbers and successes from the popular acquisitions, the shows that they've had. It's the in-house development where I think by nature there is a natural, whether it's just the likelihood of success of you're starting anything new, not everything is going to take off, but the real success metric will be, okay, two, three years from now, we're there Spotify originals that are at the top of the charts and are creating and demanding that audience the same way that some of these other shows, whether it's outside of the network or some of the ones that they've acquired are able to do? [00:55:23] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, it looks to me like they have kind of a three-prong attack where they spend mightily for somebody like Joe Rogan and that's not going to last forever. That licensing deal will be up, I don't know, maybe next year. And what do they renew or do they go spend a lot of money on somebody else? I mean, Joe Rogan brings 'em a lot of a lot of listeners I'd wager. So they have a very small number of really big shows, and then they have a lot of in-house shows with Parcast, The Ringer, Gimlet, and they can go acquire some other ones. And then they have a lot of DIY stuff. And then you get into the long tail. And this is where I think there's a lot of potential to monetize listening just like there would be in music. They bought a platform called Anchor. That's a podcast creation and distribution. Megaphone rather, is more the distribution tool. And so they have the infrastructure in place to let people create shows, distribute shows, and now they can monetize those shows. Now, do advertisers want to monetize or advertise against, you know, podcasts nobody's heard of. Not sure exactly how that's going to work. You might be not getting good advertising dollars on some of the shows, but to the extent that you can monetize the long tail podcast, Spotify is building that. And if anybody can do it, it looks like they could. So it's not about Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan might have been something just to get his podcast business off the ground, a very expensive way to get his podcast business off the ground and get it noticed by listeners and noticed by advertisers. And they might not, you know, have another Rogan after that deals up. But there's a lot of stuff out there to acquire. You know, Spotify, you take a look at the top 50 or a hundred shows. Spotify is Rogan and Call Her Daddy and maybe one other one. But there's a lot of stuff out there that they could go after. But again, this is kind of the long tail and maybe the midtier stuff that would be in-house productions. I think that really is the test of how they're going to do in podcasting at scale how can they monetize the long tail of podcast?  [00:57:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think the other thing that's an advantage for them is the advertising business and being able to not just offer, but sell better data to advertisers on who's actually listening to podcasts because outside of Spotify, using podcasts downloads, or relying on some of these third-party tools to be able to tell you how well a show's actually doing is not the best way to actually determine if people are listening. There's so many shows out there that now have ghost downloads from people that we're downloading and subscribing to these shows back in 2014, 2015, 2016, that are no longer listening to those shows, but because of the metric of downloads, It's essentially an RSS feed. They don't know if you and I are actually listening to a show versus it actually being downloaded. I'm talking about more from Apple Podcasts and from other places outside of Spotify itself. Spotify's advantage is the fact that it can provide data just as precise is what it does in streaming, essentially. Are these people listening for at least 30 seconds? Are they going and listening to the middle? And I know some of this exists with Chartable and some of these other tools, but that's the advantage that Spotify has. So if you can essentially have that, offer that to your advertisers and then say, hey, this is the better data to base it on, not self-reported podcast downloads, which is a very tough metric to use if you're trying to base that purely on advertising. This is how you can ensure that you're reaching the right people. And I do think if you have enough of a catalog there and you're able to monetize enough, then in principle, you could then pull the advertisers yourself. And if you pull them, then I think that helps also attract the shows. And you can become not just the dominant platform, but the dominant platform that can monetize as well. [00:59:08] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, well see. You have a lot of insight. You're a podcaster, so you have a lot of insight into what Spotify's doing. As a podcaster, how is the platform for you? Do you get a lot of listeners from Spotify?  [00:59:18] Dan Runcie: There's other platforms that I still get more listeners for. Like, I still get more from Apple Podcasts, I would say. But it's up there though. It's interesting because even though I get more listeners from Apple Podcast, if I put a link in my newsletter that has the Apple Podcast link or the Spotify link of where to listen, more people click on the Spotify link. So that also makes me think, okay, one of these is measuring what's already been there, people that could have been listened to my podcast since 2019 to prove my point when I started it, versus what's capturing things now. And I think as we're just seeing Spotify continue to grow and we're seeing more and more stats of how, I forget the exact metric, but them becoming one of the more popular places for listeners to listen to a podcast. The data that I'm seeing on my side, even though I haven't precisely calculated it, more so a gut check of when I'm checking my newsletter analytics, I'm like, okay, I can see where this is trending. [01:00:12] Glenn Peoples: I think it helps Spotify that they're just an innovative company that is always improving the product, right? So, you know, who knows what they'll end up doing with podcast. They could revolutionize how we listening to it.  [01:00:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The other thing, too, that made me think of it, you mentioned audiobooks earlier, and I feel like there's an opportunity for innovation there because audiobooks themselves, I think to date have in many ways just been looked at as another channel that's a companion to people either buying a physical book or downloading something on a tablet to read. But how can the art of creating an audio podcast feel similar to these high-production podcasts that we hear that sound like they are, you know, made by multiple people in a studio show? I think Malcolm Gladwell did something like this with his most recent book the Think Like Strangers, I forget the exact name, but something like Strangers where it sounded like his podcast does. You know, it's high produced, you can get a bit more variety. It's not just some voice actor that they paid, you know, some flat fee for, and then that's just what's uploaded as the audiobook. So if you're able to create that as its own unique experience, I think that there's an opportunity there with audiobooks. So I'm interested to see if the art and the content itself around those will continue to improve. [01:01:31] Glenn Peoples: I would love a company like Spotify to breathe some life into audiobooks. I used to do a lot more audiobooks than I used to. And you know, what's changed? I think what's changed is just the podcast platforms that are available that make it easier to listen to and find podcasts. I'm not much of an audiobook buyer anymore. But I would say that my audiobook listening has been cannibalized by podcast.  [01:01:54] Dan Runcie: And I think some of that, too, like if it's in the same app, it's something that you're already using. I feel like there's an opportunity there because although it's been a while since I've used the Audible app, I have to imagine that the Spotify app is much less friction to be able to be like, I want to listen to this. Boom, here, let me click and listen to the thing. And it's a game of, yeah, how can you make it as easy as possible for the consumer. So yeah, it'd be interesting to see how that space develops. The last topic I want to chat about though before we end things is TikTok. I know you've written about this recently. TikTok has been trying to get into a number of areas, specifically streaming, and I'd be curious to hear your take on them, not just their potential in streaming, but what their strategy is overall in music and how you see them working, either not just alongside, but also competing with not just the streaming services, but other companies that are part of this, that are part of this chain of the, you know, music ecosystem. [01:02:53] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, I think TikTok is fascinating as far as TikTok launching a streaming service. I mean, that makes perfect sense. I mean, why would you not? TikTok sends a lot of traffic to streaming services. If you could keep people on the platform, or at least on an app from the same company, rather than sending them off to Apple Music or YouTube or Spotify after they see a video on TikTok, I think that's probably a better, I would say, it's a better listener experience. But you know, what we've seen over the years is people use the apps they want to use. You can't force-feed people an app. You can stick it on a device. It doesn't mean they're going to use it. People will use what they want to use and TikTok would have to build a pretty amazing music streaming platform for people to use it. And I guess the question is could they grow the market rather than just take customers away from the Spotifys and Apple Musics in the YouTubes? Yeah, I guess so. There's always that, but I always think of it as more of a zero-sum game that TikTok would be taking business away from others. On paper it makes perfect sense. You know, Billboard's done a really good reporting, had some really good articles about the impact TikTok has had on the business. You know, most recently there was an article about how it's just kind of, thrown A&R executives' lives into disarray because it's, it's very hard to capitalize on TikTok success, which everybody wants. It's much more random than sending something to streaming services or sending something to radio and promoting it. It's much more grassroots and not so top-down. So it's unpredictable on what's going to hit. And that's not a good way to promote music, not knowing what people are going to end up listening to, so it makes labels' lives difficult in that aspect. On the other hand, I think labels are probably pretty happy that there's an app out there that customers want to spend a lot of time with and potentially spend money on, and that they are licensing music too and they'll get royalties from. So, you know, labels don't build these platforms themselves. They have to count on other companies to do that. And I read articles every now and then that says that TikTok is going to be the death of labels. Now labels have to partner with these platforms. That's what they do. They don't build the platforms themselves. And TikTok has a great platform. And so it's another one to work with. The question is, is it ultimately good for the labels? Yeah, maybe they honestly don't have a choice. They have to work with TikTok. They have to go where the consumers are. But I think it's ultimately probably a net win even though it's, really thrown things into disarray and changed how people discover music, and it's just not as simple a path as it used to be in promoting music and get people to listen to it. [01:05:28] Dan Runcie: You brought up a few things that I want to circle back on because I think they're important to highlight. One, if you look TikTok's overall strategy, I agree this is something that they should naturally do. If you're the person that has the top of the funnel, then you would want to identify ways that you could do it yourself instead of having another app that is relying on yours to capture that same traffic and to capture that same business opportunity. That said, does that mean that you will succeed? Not necessarily. I think as we both understand and see, it takes a lot to have a platform that gets to where Apple Music has gotten to, to get to where Spotify's gotten to, even where Amazon Music and some of these other digital streaming providers have gotten to. It takes a considerable amount of time to get there. So being able to do that effectively and being able to necessarily grow the market and do that, I think it's tough. Are there regions that TikTok is going to reach that Spotify and Apple have not already spent millions of dollars trying to reach? Probably not, which does turn it into a bit of a zero-sum game. And then are you going to be able to try to offer it at a different cost? Are you going to try to do any of these things that really make it stand out? Not necessarily. And I think one of the bigger challenges, too, is just the consumer behavior that someone has when they're going into TikTok. It has grown as fast as it has because it's an app that doesn't require much active engagement. You can sit there and passively scroll through everything. It's a very passive entertaining experience. Streaming is not that. You have to go and find who you want to listen to. Even if you want to go check out the latest album, you have to go type in that person's name unless they're the biggest star in the world, and they may happen to be on the app when you open it. You got to type in the person's name to figure that out. So shifting that consumer mindset, I think is tough if that's what they're used to in your app. So I think that piece of it is going to be a bit of a challenge for them. And I think in general, we're kind of seeing TikTok adopt a bit of that Facebook strategy, where Facebook is a company that has tried to do any and everything because they're like, hey, we have billions of users. We are the biggest platform in the world. Let's try to do all these things. And more likely than not, Facebook doesn't succeed at a lot of these things. It's more likely to succeed at the things that are naturally aligned with why someone would want to be on Facebook to begin with, and whether it's Facebook's dating services or any of these other things that just didn't necessarily take off the way it could, I think that there could be, you know, some similar type of risk if you're thinking about TikTok. Even though it is aligned with music, even though there's a lot of these things, the mindset that a consumer has when they are going into a streaming service that requires on-demand activity is very different than a passive social media experience. [01:08:13] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, I think those are really good points. There's no guarantee that TikTok is going to make a winning music subscription service if that's what it chose to do. It's just not that easy. I mean, there are companies with big head starts who have built really good apps and have a lot of momentum. And you know, the thing that I've noticed over the years with subscription services and music streaming, in general, is that you have to have an excellent product. Having a pretty good product just doesn't cut it anymore. And there are a lot of music services that have been pretty good that have just gone out of business 'cause pretty good doesn't do it. With ByteDance and with TikTok, you have to assume that they could put together pretty good service. I would bet, better than average. And can they do better than that? Possibly. And what could they do differently that would transform it? And maybe that's the question. Do they need to do a transformative subscription service? Or can they just do something that's a little more traditional and not try to build a new mousetrap? Maybe that's the better option. You know, I'm not sure, but I think, people shouldn't expect that TikTok is just going to clean up the competition because they have a very popular short-form video app. That's just a different experience than what they would be getting into.  [01:09:22] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Streaming is a very different game. It'd be interesting to see how it plays out. But Glenn, before we wrap things up and let you go, how do you think the Global Music Index that you created, how do you think things will look at 2023? What's your take on how you think certain things will play out in the index? [01:09:39] Glenn Peoples: There's so much negative forecast out there for 2023. There's a lot of economic experts saying that there's going to be a recession in 2023. You know, normally I would say, boy, probably pretty good. You know, the time to buy a stock is not when it's high. It's time to buy is when it's low. So right now the index is starting from would be starting year at a pretty low place. It's just that they're pretty dark clouds on 2023. It's really hard to say how it's going to play out. There's just a lot of really bad expectations for next year. So I think that as far as these stocks have fallen, they're not out of the woods yet. And I don't think we can assume that they're going to turn around and start growing next year. But if you look at 2022 as kind of a correction to maybe some stocks that were overvalued, then they're starting in a better place. [01:10:27] Dan Runcie: That's true. Maybe the overvaluation may have some, or the overvaluation of the overcorrection rather could lead things off to a good start. So it'll be exciting to see for sure. And we'll definitely be keeping an eye on the index itself. Once again, good job creating that. I think a lot of people were looking for a way to just capture everything that's going in the industry. So it'll be good to continue tracking it. And Glenn, thanks for coming on. It was great to touch base on so many important topics, and I'm sure we can have a similar conversation like this soon.  [01:10:54] Glenn Peoples: Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.  [01:10:56] Dan Runcie: Thank you. [01:10:59] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Today's episode is a two-parter. Part 1 is on Spotify and YouTube’s billion streams and views playlists. After reviewing both lists, there’s a lot to learn about the streaming era and the strategy for both platforms respectively. I broke it all down with Tati Cirsiano, a music analyst at MIDiA Research.

Spotify’s list is more reflective of passive consumption. Spotify’s top-performing songs are more correlated with radio hits than YouTube, which is a more active consumption experience.

YouTube’s Billion Views Club has more international stars than Spotify. With streaming continuing to grow across the world and plateauing in the United States, YouTube’s list more reflects future music consumption. 

Part 2 is with Glenn Peoples from Billboard. We talk about its new Global Music Index that takes the publicly traded stocks from the biggest music companies in music to give an overall picture of stock performance for the industry. 

Here’s everything Tati, Glenn, and I covered on the show:

[3:03] Immediate takeaways from each Billions Club playlists

[5:15] How “meme traffic” impacted both platforms

[9:37] Passive consumption vs. active consumption

[12:11] International differences between Spotify and YouTube

[14:57] The Justin Bieber conundrum 

[16:36] How Spotify and YouTube enable fragmentation of fandom

[21:26] Gym-going and seasonality’s impact on streaming numbers

[26:14] Short-form videos eventual effect on YouTube streaming

[27:55] YouTube vs. Spotify competition intensifying 

[35:58] MIDiA’s upcoming predictions report

[38:33] What % of the Global Music index Spotify takes up

[39:23] Why music industry stocks fell further than the overall market

[46:25] Streaming platforms increasing prices

[50:22] What goes into calculating Average Revenue Per User for Spotify

[55:23] Spotify’s podcast strategy & acquisitions

[59:18] How much of Trapital’s audience comes from Spotify

[1:02:53] Why TikTok should launch it’s own streaming service

[1:09:39] What Glenn expects 2023 to look like


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guests: Tati Cirisano, @tatianacirisano, Glenn Peoples, @theglennpeoples

 

Download The Culture Report here: https://trapital.ck.page/a23b7a6a4a

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[00:00:00] Tatiana Cirisano: Spotify's list is more of an accurate reflection of what the passive majority listens to, whereas YouTube is more of a reflection of what people are actively fans of and actively engaging, which is interesting because that was a question that we asked in our last episode where we were like, how do we measure, like, what are new ways to measure consumption? And I said, well, it'd be interesting if we could actually measure, you know, active consumption versus passive. And now here I'm looking at these two lists, I was like, oh, this is actually potentially an example of that.

[00:00:37] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 

[00:00:57] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is a two-parter. We normally don't do two-parters, but these topics were so closely linked, it made perfect sense, so we had to do it. The first part of this episode is a conversation I had with Tati Cirisano from MIDiA Research, and we talked about the Billions Clubs. Spotify and YouTube both have their respective playlists that have over a billion streams and views respectively. So we talked about what can we learn from both of these playlists together. What does it tell us about the most popular songs that do well on streaming, but also what can it tell us about these two platforms individually? What are the differences between the two playlists? Are there certain songs that perform better on others versus that and why? And what that means more broadly for the sector, Just given how big these companies are. Second part of the conversation, I talked to Glen Peoples who works for Billboard, and he recently released this Global Music Index, which is a value-based index that takes the publicly traded stocks from many of the biggest companies in music, combines them, and gives us an overall picture of how we can look at the performance of the music industry, at least in the publicly traded companies. Hint, it's been a down year for stocks overall, so nothing too surprising there. But we talk specifically about Spotify, who stock is noticeably in a tougher place, at least from, where it was year to date compared to some of the other companies. So we talked about why that is, what to expect, and more. Really great conversations. Let's start things off with Tati. Hope you enjoy it. 

[00:02:31] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have Tati Cirisano back with us from MIDiA Research and we're going to dive into the Billions playlists that are both from Spotify and YouTube. What a fascinating list that's like a tripped-out memory lane, telling you what songs are popular, but also how these lists are different. I feel like they both have somewhere between like 3 to 400 songs, but there's a whole bunch of different trends here. I know that we both have a bunch of notes here, but Tati, I'll start with you. What stuck out to you most when you were looking through these lists? 

[00:03:03] Tatiana Cirisano: Oh my gosh. So there's so many things. I guess I'll start with the things that stuck out to me that don't have to do with differences, but just stuck out to me in terms of just looking at both. And one was that I felt like there was definitely a dominance of songs and artists from the last decade and maybe even just the last five years, which was interesting to me because there's been such a debate recently about is old music or what we call catalog, which is often not actually old music. But is it sort of cannibalizing new music? Does new music have more to compete with? And that whole argument. So it was interesting to see that there actually weren't that many or weren't relatively as many older songs. I believe the YouTube Billion Views Club had, like, one song from the 70s. It makes more sense with YouTube. And I think YouTube had even more dominance with more recent songs. And that kind of makes sense because if it's visual-based, maybe some of these songs we don't have the music videos, or maybe they're not as good. But I thought that that was interesting just off the bat from both ways. 

[00:04:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I would agree. I think that YouTube's list did trend much younger, and there's a whole MTV effect of just what music videos look like then and now. But I also feel like what's important is with both Spotify and YouTube, that when these platforms accelerated in growth, a lot of the artists that were releasing music around those times accelerated and growth too. And I feel like I saw some trends there. If I think about YouTube and its rapid growth phase more so in the early 2010s. There were a few songs there that I saw, whether it was like a party rock anthem or songs like that, that streamed really well on YouTube. Still nowhere near a billion streams on Spotify. And I think on the flip side of that, on Spotify, there were a few songs that were in that late 2010s era when Spotify was in its rapid growth phase that weren't on YouTube's playlist. So that was one of those interesting things. Like, for example, I think Drake's song Nice for What, a billion streams on Spotify. It's in the Billions Club, but it wasn't on YouTube's list. And I remember that music video, I think it's at the skating rink and he has, like, Issa Rae and all these people in it. So there was definitely some influence of the platforms too. 

[00:05:15] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. And that reminds me, too, of with the influence of platforms, it felt like, there were, so okay on both platforms. I felt like there were a lot of songs that were driven by, like, a viral hit or a novelty, which kind of just goes to show how embedded music has become in, like, meme culture and social media and just like online culture in general. But it also, like, looking at the differences within that, it felt like, this is like, I mean, you'd need to do more of a real, like, study and look at the actual numbers on this, but just from scrolling over the list, it seemed like, more of the TikTok traffic is going to Spotify. Like, there were a lot of songs that had a billion streams that I just remember being moments on TikTok, like Dreams and the Roses, Imanbek remix, like those songs and many others had passed a billion streams on Spotify, but had not cracked the YouTube list. And then on the flip side, YouTube had a lot of stuff that was more, like, just these, memes about, I'm trying to think of an example, like the Dame tu Cosita song and video, like that. There were actually an abundance of songs on the Billion Views Club for YouTube that were linked to these videos, including Crazy Frog. 

[00:06:24] Dan Runcie: I saw that. 

[00:06:25] Tatiana Cirisano: It like that was just, like, that was a moment in time in meme culture that kind of preceded TikTok humor. I don't know, like you can almost track meme culture's impact based on these two platforms lists as well with TikTok driving more traffic to Spotify and sort of the old, almost like Vine humor going more to YouTube. 

[00:06:45] Dan Runcie: That point makes me think of two things I also saw as well. So I believe the first YouTube video that hit a billion streams was Psy's Gangnam Style. I don't think that song has a billion streams or anywhere close to that on Spotify's list, which I think speaks to your point about just the visual nature of that. And that of course is a pre-TikTok era. The other song I think that lines up with this a bit, and this is because of memes within the music video itself is Nelly and Kelly Rowland's Dilemma music video. That is the most popular YouTube video that Nelly has, and I'm pretty sure that Kelly Rowland likely has too. And it's because of this one scene in the music video where Kelly is texting on this 2002's phone and she has Microsoft Excel open, and that's what she's actually using to text. So they're both, you know, generating money. And Kelly was even talking about an interview semi-recently talking about, I didn't even know what Microsoft Excel was. They just told me to type. But over time, and now we obviously have a different relationship with texting. That type of event can blow up on YouTube in a way that not necessarily going to Spotify. 

[00:07:54] Tatiana Cirisano: Right. Like, there's an inherent difference in just what you're going to do on these platforms. Like, there's a number of reasons why you might look up a music video on YouTube. Maybe you like the song, maybe there's a celebrity cameo, maybe somebody told you that. It's a crazy, wild video and you're just curious. Like, there's a lot more reasons I think than there are reasons why you would stream a song. So that just by definition kind of opens up a lot of differences in these lists. 

[00:08:18] Dan Runcie: The other thing, too, that you mentioned earlier was the decades and how YouTube's list only had one song that I think that was before 1980 and there was only a handful even from the 80s and the 90s as well. And while Spotify had a bit more, I still think it was quite less. Last time I looked at Spotify's list, it was less than 10% of the 300-plus songs that were more than 20 years old. And I have to assume YouTube may be even closer to 94-96%. Part of that, I think, as you mentioned, is music videos, but I also wonder is part of it with Spotify having a bit more of a close link to radio play and just things that were popular on the radio at the time. Like for instance, a song like Goo Goo Doll's, Iris, that was on Spotify's list is not on YouTube's list. I don't necessarily think the song had like a memorable music video necessarily, but I think it's the audio of it, it makes people think of, you know, what was that movie that it was in? I'm trying to remember the movie that it was in. It'll come to me, but there was some 90s movie that was in, I'm drawing a blank on it right now. Oh, City of Angels. So it was in that, and then, but I just don't think that people, like, recognized the music video they would like, it wasn't necessarily this big, like TRL hit the way that like a boy band song was. 

[00:09:37] Tatiana Cirisano: I noticed the same thing where looking over Spotify's list, it felt very much like just a list of every radio hit of the past 10 or 20 years that it was really, really tied to that. And I wonder, like, this kind of brings me to another thing that I wanted to talk to you about with this, which is how my sort of theory with another reason that these are different is that Spotify's list is more of an accurate reflection of what the passive majority listens to, whereas YouTube is more of a reflection of what people are actively fans of and actively engaging, which is interesting because that was a question that we asked in our last episode where we were like, how do we measure, like, what are new ways to measure consumption? And I said, well, it'd be interesting if we could actually measure, you know, active consumption versus passive. And now here I'm looking at these two lists, I was like, oh, this is actually potentially an example of that. And the other reason that came to me is because at MIDiA, we've recently done a report on looking at different types of entertainment and how much of consumption is in the background of another activity versus focused. And YouTube, like, people that watch music videos on YouTube are much more likely to be doing that as a focused activity in the foreground rather than something in the background, which makes sense because it's visual, there's, you know, social features to it, et cetera whereas they're a lot more likely to just put on their Spotify music in the background of something else. So I wonder if that's also part of the reason that Spotify seems to have more of a tie to radio and those songs that were just kind of popular for everyone whereas YouTube is more what are the songs and artists and videos that people are like engaging with.

[00:11:09] Dan Runcie: That's a good point. It makes me think, well, on the YouTube side, I'm much more likely to listen to a YouTube playlist run, right? Like, I normally don't do that when I'm watching YouTube. I know YouTube has playlist, but I'm more likely to put a Spotify playlist on, which speaks to that. And I know some of the stuff that you've researched and the team has researched on MIDiA as well, is just this whole nature of probably a bit more on the digital stream provider side, but how to measure active versus passive engagement of, or actually listening to a song. And maybe this is a closer way to get a gauge for that because, you know, especially when these artists have these big week sales that'll come out and we'll see the numbers come through, it would be great to know, okay, how many people said yes, I want to listen to this Taylor Swift song from the Midnights album as opposed to people being like, oh, it just happened to be what's dominating today's top hits or if I'm listening to, you know, the number 50 or the top 50 songs in the US. These are the ones that happen to play. 

[00:12:11] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, yeah. That makes total sense. And I think the other reason why Spotify's list probably is more tied to radio is because it's a lot more, like the user base is less international than YouTube 'cause that was the biggest difference, looking at the two lists was just how few internet, like non-Western artists there were on Spotify's Billions Club versus YouTube's. 

[00:12:36] Dan Runcie: That stuck out too. And I think YouTube as well also had a list of artists that had the most Billion Views Club songs were and artists like Ozuna were high up on that list. I want to say he had at least 10 videos on YouTube that hit a billion. But on Spotify, it's far less. I think J Balvin was another one too, where there was a big discrepancy there. And yeah, I think the fact that YouTube has had much more of a market share and in general listenership in these regions outside of, you know, US and Western Europe as opposed to YouTube. So maybe part of that, where it's a signal of like, okay, this is where Spotify's clearly trying to grow and has been trying to get more share in. So, like, if Spotify achieved its goal, then it likely would have more of that and vice versa.

[00:13:28] Tatiana Cirisano: Right. And then it is YouTube's sort of a more accurate representation of, like, what the music landscape of the future looks like in that way where it will be less dominated probably by Western artists. As you know, streaming sort of infiltrates all these other places. And that is so interesting for, like, the fragmentation conversation that we've been having because it means things are just further fractured and, you know, there's going to be lots of artists and songs on these lists that we've probably never heard of. Like, it was so interesting to me because part of the, like, excitement that I had to do this little project of, like, opening the two and comparing them was, I was excited to be surprised. I was like, I want to see what things are on the list that I'm like, I have never heard of that. Or what is that? How did that end up here? And I did not have that moment once looking at Spotify's playlist. But looking at YouTube's, there were so many videos and so many artists that I just had never heard of, and that was exciting to me. So I wonder how much that's a product of YouTube specifically versus that being what will happen inevitably when streaming is more widespread.

[00:14:34] Dan Runcie: And were most of the surprises that you had, were most of them from an international perspective, or were there any Western-based music surprises? 

[00:14:43] Tatiana Cirisano: That's a good question. There were definitely a handful of Western ones that I can't think of right now, but the majority were probably just artists I'd never heard of or songs, yeah, artists I didn't know anything about that had billions and billions of views. Yeah, I don't know. Let me think about that. 

[00:14:57] Dan Runcie: Yeah. While you're thinking about that, one thing that stuck out to me was there were certain artists that I think surprised me both in a way of, oh, I thought there would've been more here, or there were actually a bit less here. One artist is Justin Bieber. So I know that Justin Bieber is very popular, but if you would've asked me who were the biggest artists of the 2010s, I probably would name four names, maybe even five names before I named his name. But if you look at, even if you're just looking at Western artists, the artist that is the one with the most songs on Spotify and the one that I believe has the most songs on YouTube as well, Justin Bieber is in the top three of both of those lists. I believe it's at least nine songs on Spotify and at least maybe 10 or so on YouTube. And there's something about that fandom that I didn't necessarily, I mean, I knew that he was huge. I knew that there were so many songs that were quite popular, especially the album that had, like, Sorry, and Love Yourself. Like, that one was huge, but I thought that there were other artists, like for instance, an artist like Beyoncé or even someone like Taylor Swift, who, I don't believe that Beyoncé had a song on the YouTube list at all, or a song that's really close to that. And at least up to now, I don't think that Taylor Swift has a song on Spotify's Billions List. I think that Blank Space will probably get there eventually, but I don't think she has a song this moment that's on that list. So to see the two of them who I think a lot of people largely think are two of the largest musicians in of the past decade, but to see someone like Bieber just have hit after hit on both of these lists, I was like, wow.


[00:16:36]


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That's so interesting, the Justin Bieber conundrum of all of this. Okay, I have a couple of thoughts on that. I think, so he was sort of Made on YouTube, right? That's where he started posting clips. That's where he was discovered. And I think something else that this ties into that I wanted to bring up is how, with YouTube, the artists that reach these Billion Views Club, I think probably are more likely to have sort of built a community on YouTube which Justin Bieber did, and that was kind of like the roots of his fandom. So when I was reading YouTube's, like, blog about the Billion Views Club, and there were a bunch of artists' quotes, and a lot of them had to do with the artist saying, you know, like, YouTube was a place to build a community. And Alan Walker was one of the artists who said that. And he was someone who, he's an electronic music artist who when I was looking at the YouTube Billions Views Club, he came up again and again and I was like, it seemed random to me because he's a great artist. He has a big community of fans, but I just didn't think that he would have billions of views. But he seems to credit the community aspect for that. So I think that could be part of it. But then as soon as you said, oh but he's also one of the top artists on Spotify, I'm like, okay, but that's a completely different story because there's no community building on Spotify. So is it just that the fans are, that obsessed with the music that they're, you know, maybe migrating over and streaming there as well, or are we just misremembering, you know, how big of an impact Justin Bieber had? And then that brought me to thinking about how, I mean I think this relates to Taylor as well, but they both built their fan bases at a time when things were just kind of a lot less congested. So I think it was in many ways, easier to get a billion views or billion streams on something a couple of years ago than it is now, now that people's tastes are so fragmented. So maybe that's also part of the reason why, like, I wonder how many of those streams came from, you know, pre-2015 or something versus from then on. I wonder when they were accumulated. So yeah, that's sort of my rant of thoughts. 

[00:18:41] Dan Runcie: That one about Bieber is a good one because I didn't think about that, but I think it's absolutely right. He was doing all those cover songs of all these other artists when he's like a teenager. He's growing the base there. And to the point that you had brought up in an article a couple of months ago, we talked about the last time we're on the podcast, he is in a different category than someone like a Beyoncé or Taylor Swift. Like, when Taylor made Teardrops On My G uitar. I don't even like, that was probably around the same time that YouTube started. Like in some ways her fandom predated so much of what people know as music. And of course, Beyonce became a solo artist from Destiny's Child well before YouTube even started. So I think that's a good point there with some of it. The Spotify thing though is interesting, yeah. I mean, I think those songs did get a lot of radio play as well. Like everything off of that album, that Bieber's album that Sorry came on as well. Like, they got a ton of radio plays. So that ties into the Spotify piece of it, too, and maybe a little bit of misremembering of certain things of, well, and you know, like I'm a little bit older than the custom Bieber demo, so there could be some of it there where they may not hit me in the same circles that, the same way that, you know, someone did with Beyoncé for instance.


[00:19:53]


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Yeah. I have another thought related to this that I feel like I'm struggling to articulate, but I'm going to try, which is that on the Spotify list and the YouTube list, I thought there was more overlap when it came to which older artists were on the list than there was when it comes to newer artists. And I wonder if that is also sort of further proof of this fragmentation that's happening because it would make sense that if a decade ago, two decades ago, people kind of had less to choose from to listen to. Everybody kind of has the same favorite artists from those decades that they've listened to enough to reach a billion streams. Yet now that people have more choice and things are fragmented more, their favorite artists and songs today are more varied. 

[00:20:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think there's something there because if you think about it, the lists are quite similar. And I think even if you look at YouTube's list, which I think even though YouTube's list is less reliant on radio, the biggest songs they have from the 80s and 90s are still the same songs that people have heard in bars and in stadiums and in TV commercials for decades now. So there's consistency there. Things do start to get a bit segmented to your point of where things are right now. So both of these platforms, in many ways enable the fragmentation of fandom. Their algorithms made it easy for people to have their own circles. So I do think that that piece of it is true. So I think that's a good point. 

[00:21:18] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. Okay. I'm glad I could put that into words 'cause it was one of those things where I had this thought and was like, does this make sense? 

[00:21:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Oh, yeah. 

[00:21:25] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. Fascinating.

[00:21:26] Dan Runcie: Another thing too, that stuck out, this stuck out a bit more on Spotify's playlist than others, but how certain songs have shifted from when radio, for instance, was more playing songs that I think people more often wanted to hear in their cars. But Spotify, it's on-demand, it's everywhere. I think, for instance, workout music is something that we've seen a pretty large uptick on with Spotify. A song like Eminem's Till I Collapse, which is in the billions playlist for Spotify, I don't think I heard that song once on the radio. Maybe I'm misremembering things just relative to how big Eminem's hits were in the early 2000s. But that song is one of his most played songs. And I think it's because it's a song that a lot of guys listen to when they want to work out. Maybe it's something that they also will play, like, I don't think they to like LA Fitness necessarily like on the speakers, but I think it's more so of like a, no, let me go listen to this while I try to, you know, set PR on the bench press or whatever. So I feel like there's things like that, also seasonal music, right? Of course, just Mariah Carey and some of the records and accolades that All I Want For Christmas Is You has continued to reach and all of the remixes and versions she's done of that song, like that doesn't happen without streaming, right?

[00:22:41] Tatiana Cirisano: I was going to say September was also on there, which, you know, every September everybody starts to sing. That is a seasonal song. So, yeah, no, I totally agree with you. And I also noticed that both lists had a lot of, like, upbeat music, like what you're saying, like stuff that people work out to. And I feel like it's for different reasons. Like I'm Spotify, maybe those types of songs dominate because like you're saying, they're the things that people put on in the background of something. Whereas on YouTube, the reason might be because those tend to have more vibrant videos. Like, I feel like more people are likely to watch videos for, you know, an upbeat reggaeton song than like some acoustic, I don't know, Taylor Swift song, even though she's a massive star. Like, overall, you know? And on that note, I don't know if this is just my, you know, anecdotal takeaway, you'd have to, again, like actually go through all the songs and do some data crunching. But I felt like Spotify had actually more varied in terms of like upbeat songs were on there. But also a lot of, Coldplay, a lot of like earlier Ed Sheeran, like, those more like, not so upbeat, more acoustic songs, whereas YouTube barely had any of those because again, I think there may be less likely to be something people watch the video of. I don't know. But that was interesting just how uptempo the two lists were. 

[00:23:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I would need to go back and check to see if like a song like Coldplay's Yellow. Is that on YouTube's list? 

[00:24:08] Tatiana Cirisano: It's on Spotify's, but I don't think it's on Youtube's.

[00:24:10] Dan Runcie: And that would speak to that, right? It's a more somber video. I'm pretty sure Chris Martin's head is laying like sideways on the pavement in that video, right, or on the bed, if I remember correctly. So yeah, it's just not going to be as, I think, yes. Like, if you have five minutes, like, this is the thing that I want to be able to get to. So yeah, it's such a fascinating distinction. And I think with it, it's clear that with both of these platforms, the two of them are really trying to compete more and more with each other, with both Spotify trying to get more and more international, YouTube trying to have more and more influence just in terms of the overall revenue that they generate for the industry. So I do want to talk about the two of them as companies distinctly, but before we get there, I think that the international piece and just how revenue is generated for each of these streams or each of these views will be an interesting distinction over time because, especially with Spotify, these streams that the artists are generating don't necessarily get weighted the same in terms of the pro rata and the pools that they get put into and then getting separated. So if one artist has a bunch of streams from a bunch of their fans, but a lot of their fans are in places where the subscriptions cost $2 per month to subscribe to Spotify, or there's a over index of free accounts versus paid, like these numbers don't necessarily reflect that, which is fine. I think we're just trying to get a gauge for what listening looks like. But the revenue may actually look very different for, let's say, thinking about like one of these, you know, 80s or 90s radio hits. The person that's listening to that account may be more likely to be paying 10 or maybe soon $11 a month for Spotify subscription if I'm just thinking about what that consumer may be like and therefore essentially getting more revenue per stream than some of the newer artists that may have a younger aboard international fan base. So that was another point that I thought was interesting. We won't have that data, but just based on inference, I feel like that's a trend in terms of where it's going. 

[00:26:14] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, that makes sense. And I also wonder, like, if short form video becomes the more dominant form of consuming video, and the people that are watching music videos on YouTube shift to watching 32nd videos that use music on shorts, like, what will that do to the revenue mix? And it'll also depend on if the way that UGC platforms payout to the music industry changes where it's no longer this, you know, blanket payment for uses and is more per use. I think there's a lot that could get shifted around there. And I wonder if, like, does that mean YouTube is sort of cannibalizing its own, one of its own sources where people that are watching music videos are now going to shorts instead? Or is there an opportunity? Like, I think there's an opportunity for both. But I guess these are just questions that come up in my mind when I think about it. 

[00:27:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's like in some ways it's similar to when Instagram adds stories, right? You're trying to get a sense, is this additive or is this going to take away, And I think YouTube's goal is that would be additive, but you're bringing up, I think, a valid thing where it's a little different with music and how you're registering streams. And I do think that there's a certain number of people that the better and better that shorts get, there's going to be less desire to go check out the actual video. And if these songs aren't registering, I think at least for a stream or a view, it's 30 seconds of listening needs to be registered, at least to be counted as a stream. Then if that doesn't happen on a short end, you're just getting these clips, then how does that impact the actual artist themselves, right? 

[00:27:47] Tatiana Cirisano: No, you put it really well. Like, the better that shorts gets, the more it might actually threaten people going to YouTube to watch the video.

[00:27:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So many interesting, I think, things to just dive into with this. But I think it's a good point to just talk more broadly about Spotify and YouTube in general, just in terms of where they are, how both of them want the other one. And I think based on these blog posts and based on a number of the letters that, the emails that you'll see from Lyor Cohen when he's describing where things are with YouTube. There's clearly a goal to, you know, establish itself as the leader in the market. And I think the growth has been pretty strong, but of course Spotify, I think still with nearly 200 million paid subscribers is definitely, you know, I think leading on that front. But where do you see this play out in terms of whether or not the trends and clearly what these playlists tell us about the tendencies of these two companies and also where things are going and who we think will be more or less dominant, let's say five years from now? Let's not say 10 years. I think that's a bit too far out, but let's say five years from now. 

[00:28:51] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. Well, I've written about this, I've written a couple of blogs about this, but I think that YouTube does have a lot of advantages, especially for just where the music landscape is going. So one is that, in the streaming world, there's so little differentiation, right? All the DSPs kind of offer the same experience, the same catalog, the same price. But YouTube actually has a differentiating factor in that it's an audio-visual platform, and that they also have shorts, and they kind of have this ecosystem of apps that feed into each other. And that's sort of the second advantage, is that ecosystem aspect where, you know, based on our data, new generations of fans are really looking for more ways to actively participate in fandom and, you know, not just listen to a song, but create content around it. And YouTube has that it has this, you know, creator proposition. In many ways, YouTube was the first, arguably the first, you know, creator platform. The first place that you could post video content online and build a career around it. So, fans want this, but also artists need more ways to directly engage with their fans and monetize and actually not just be discovered, but sustain fandom and build communities. And that's the thing that I think so many social platforms lack, is they can help artists get discovered, but it's still really hard for them to connect the dots. So when you have YouTube, if you think about like the journey of, a fan through the ecosystem, you know, maybe they discover a song on shorts, and they can actually just click it and go straight, you know, go straight to the artist's YouTube page where maybe they watch the video that just came out and then they can go to YouTube music and stream the song, and it kind of creates this more frictionless experience. So I think we're already seeing a lot of consumers spend more of their music time on platforms that let them play around with the music, like the TikToks of the world and the shorts of the world. So if you have an ecosystem that combines that with streaming and the ability to just go seamlessly from one to the other, I think that's really powerful. And that's also why, you know, ByteDance launching a streaming service could really change the game. I think ByteDance and YouTube have a lot of the same advantages in that space. So I think YouTube is well positioned for the current era and what both artists are looking for and what fans are looking for, I guess is how I would frame that.

[00:31:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think that YouTube's biggest advantage with this is that A, it still is under a much larger company that prints money from search, which is Google, right? So the fact that it in itself is the second largest search engine, largely because of Google, I think that piece of it will serve well. And I think secondly, the fact that when there's so many more things competing for your attention, whatever can make that have less friction, it can make it easier for people to access that platform as we've seen based on the rise of TikTok, I think those platforms do tend to win out in this area where you're ultimately trying to either capture or monetize attention. And the way that streaming is going, even though I know it can be lucrative for artists that own their assets or have favorable terms, it is a bit more of a measure of capturing attention for a lot of artists and being able to essentially market and position themselves out there to share what they have so that they can monetize elsewhere. And I do think that, I know I've talked about this previously, but just Spotify may be in a little bit more of a difficult position just given the fact that its ultimate goal is still to try to get more monetization from its non-music audio, whether it's your podcast or your audiobooks and stuff like that.

[00:32:41] Dan Runcie: And I think that is a little bit of a tougher bet relative to YouTube, China. going with shorts and essentially try to compete more directly with TikTok or just other things in general that are making it easier. That said, I still think that Spotify is more strong from a product perspective of actually being able to, you know, ease of use of listening, being able to find and skip to the song, and being able to listen to a song on my phone you know, turning off the screen and then putting it in my pocket. And I know that YouTube does now allow you essentially to do that if you pay for subscription, but I think the friction, at least in the consumer's mind, is a little different than it is with doing that with Spotify, even because you do that with Spotify for free account especially. So I do think that there are some pros and cons there, but to your point, I do think that because YouTube is moving more in the direction of creating less friction for people to use its product and just the fact that it's visual, it's engaged, and to your other point, it's a bit more directly connected to fans being able to actively choose what they want to listen to, like the data and all those things are going to be more impactful and insightful there.

[00:33:48] Tatiana Cirisano: Right, Right. So I think artists will kind of go to wherever the fans and the remuneration opportunities are, and I think YouTube is right now, providing more of that than Spotify is. Like, Spotify is a place where you can monetize scale, but you can't monetize niche. And YouTube is an ecosystem where you can monetize both. And I think there's no reason why streaming services in general shouldn't be a place where you can monetize both. But we haven't really seen that happen yet, and I think YouTube is moving in that direction. So I guess I come at this question because of the work that I do from such a perspective of what do the artists and the fans want. But of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that alone isn't going to, you know, make YouTube overtake Spotify. So I guess I'm a little bit biased just based on the work that I do. 

[00:34:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I could see that. Because there's just so many other, there's just so many factors at play here. It's such a dominant position and at the end of the day, nearly 200 million people in the world are paying for the service and that is much higher than a lot of these other services. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out though. I feel like to some of the points you brought up earlier. Just going back to the Billions Club, if we had this conversation two years from now, I'd be interested to see, one, which old songs creep back up and which songs that have come up recently end up rising up and hitting those places, and does it line up with a lot of the points that we brought up here? So I'm excited to see what that looks like. 

[00:35:15] Tatiana Cirisano: No, me too. And also what the pace will be like? Will there be just way more songs that have hit a billion streams in a shorter amount of time, or will the opposite trend happen because of fragmentation? Like, I'm not, I'm not really sure. So yeah, as always, excited to see definitely what comes next. 

[00:35:30] Dan Runcie: Well, Tati, this is great. Thanks for coming to share these insights. And I think now I got to go back and count how many Crazy Frog videos there were on YouTube's list because when I saw that, I'm glad you brought that up. I was just like, my goodness, I forgot all about this trend. 

[00:35:45] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, at least in that ratio, you know, we have confirmed YouTube wins. 

[00:35:49] Dan Runcie: All right. Before we let you go, what do you have coming down the pipeline? Are there any upcoming research or any recent things that you've put out that listeners should keep an eye out for?

[00:35:58] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, I would say coming up one of my favorite things that we do at MIDiA Research is our predictions report where every year, at the end of the year, we put out predictions for the coming year. And we also rate ourselves in terms of how much we got right from the past year. I believe our success rate is somewhere above 80%.

[00:36:16] Dan Runcie: That's legit. 

[00:36:17] Tatiana Cirisano: That's great. But yeah, so we always do I believe we always do a free webinar on that. It was free last year. So look out for that because it's a great chance to interact with us even if you're not a client. And it's a lot of fun. 

[00:36:30] Dan Runcie: Awesome, we'll look out for that and, yeah.

[00:36:33] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah.

[00:36:33] Dan Runcie: We'll have to see. I'm curious about what the hit rate will be this year. So definitely let us know what the success rate is...

[00:36:39] Tatiana Cirisano: We will.

[00:36:40] Dan Runcie: from the ones you made last year, heading into this year. 

[00:36:42] Tatiana Cirisano: Awesome. Thanks, Dan. 

[00:36:43] Dan Runcie: Awesome. Well, thank you. This is great. 

[00:36:45] Dan Runcie: All right. Hope you enjoyed that first part with Tati breaking down the Billions Clubs. Here's my chat with Glenn Peoples.

[00:36:53] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have Glenn Peoples with us who is from Billboard, and he just released this Global Music Index, which has stated that music stocks are down 44% this year, twice as much as the market. And Glenn, it'd be great to start here. What's going on? Why are socks down in the music industry?

[00:37:13] Glenn Peoples: Hey, thanks for having me. Well, stocks are down in general. So it's not that just music that's having a tough time at the stock market. You know, a big component of the Global Music Index, which I created for Billboard is Spotify. And Spotify has had a tough year, just like Netflix has had a tough year. There's, I think, enthusiasm for streaming stocks was high at the beginning of the pandemic and dropped quite a bit since then. And investors are not looking at growth so much as looking at margins, looking at profits, and so they're expecting a lot more from streaming services right now. So it's a tough time to be a streaming service, whether you're Netflix, whether you're Spotify. You could say, well, the investors got carried away. They were overvalued. Yeah, maybe so. It's just been a tough year for streaming services and when Spotify is that big of a component of the index, it's down, well, as of yesterday, it's down 60% for the year. And so that's a lot of market cap that's gone and that's dragging down the index. And that's the short version. 

[00:38:17] Dan Runcie: Right. So of course, it's a value-based index. Market cap is what defines it. And just so listeners know, how big of a factor is Spotify? Like, how much is their stock and their market cap weighted in terms of the overall index?

[00:38:33] Glenn Peoples: I would say it's probably, again, this is just ballpark. It's probably about 15% of the value of the index. It was a lot more obviously. I would say right now at its current price, it's 10 to 15%. Universal Music Group is the biggest component of the index, and there's some other companies just a handful that really stand out above everybody else. Live Nation, Warner Music Group, Sirius XM are some of the big ones. 

[00:39:02] Dan Runcie: The thing that stuck out to me about it is that, of course, Spotify stock is a huge piece of it, but even if you were to take out Spotify, the non-Spotify stocks in that index still are down more than the overall market has been this past year. So it also makes me think that there may be something going on that's a bit deeper than just streaming. 

[00:39:23] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, it's not just streaming. You know, a lot of music companies had a great 2021 and I think that they just had further to fall. So there were some really high valuations and it just sets these companies up for a pretty big fall when investor sentiment turns and the market turns. And ever since the Fed announced in, I believe, December, that it was going to start raising interest rates. You know, stocks have started to fall and Spotify definitely started to fall then. And it's been a long, what is that, roughly 10 months since then. Things have calmed down a bit, but stocks are, boy, they're really having a tough time. It's really volatile a lot there. I think there's two ways to look at it. One is what's the value of the stock? What's the value of the company as valued by investors? And what's the potential of the company based on the company itself and the intellectual property it has? And those two don't always line up. You know, Spotify I still think is a very good company. I think it has a lot of work to do, but it's growing at a good clip and I think they have good people there. But when you are a streaming stock and you're facing really a once-in-a-generation kind of environment with very bad inflation you know, crazy, I was about to say unemployment, but unemployment is not that bad. It's just a very strange time in the market and a very strange macroeconomic climate. And you're seeing good companies have very difficult times with their stock prices. You know, Universal Music Group is down. But the market is down overall and Universal's not going to escape the just general downturn of the market. That's saying something because Universal is the biggest music company out there holding up market share very well has a big share of the top 10, any given time, big artists. But you can't correlate stock market performance with company performance just perfectly. It's a very strange time in the macroeconomic climate right now. 

[00:41:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The interesting thing with the major record label stocks, and even some of these other companies that, yeah, even though they may not be streaming services themselves, when streaming makes up such a high percentage of the overall revenue for this entire industry, then Spotify's stock is in many ways going to be at least somewhat correlated to what we see with Universal given the fact that these companies have equity in each other, they're so dependent on each other, so a lot of that is given. You mentioned Live Nation earlier, and I think that their stock is interesting, too, because even though it isn't directly tied to streaming, that stock had hit record highs in the middle of the pandemic when there were no shows going on. So that just spoke to how much of a disconnect there was if you looked at how the company was actually doing in 2020 and even in 2021 when there were nowhere near as many shows as they had had in 2019, but they now are actually being able to realize more of that revenue. But the stock has adjusted in a lot of ways since. So there is a bit of this disconnect. I think there was just a good amount of excitement as well about what's happening in music as an investment class. Specifically, you looked at all of the catalog sales and the booms that happen thanks to the low-interest rates, and they're no longer low anymore. So you're also seeing that play a factor in, and you've also heard some of the acquirers of those catalogs expressing a bit of disappointment that the returns aren't quite what they thought the returns were going to be as well. So some of those things, I think, Brought some of the temperament and a lot of the companies that are in your index down to, I don't want to say necessarily down to earth, because I think there's still plenty of room for growth for a lot of them, but it's clear that we've moved past that era of the pandemic when things were just high for the pure speculation of where it could be in a few years.

[00:43:15] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, I think the honeymoon is over for a lot of music stocks. You know, music as an asset class was really attractive. And, you know, look, just the fact that Universal is public and Warner is public once again, and there are numerous streaming services from Tencent Music and Cloud Music in China to Anghami and Spotify and Deezer. There's a lot of music companies that are publicly traded right now and that says a lot about music as an asset, as a segment, set aside the problems it's had in the last year. So music companies had a great 2020 and 2021, and it's been downhill since then. But the fact that there are a lot of publicly traded music companies right now, and so much investor interest in music catalogs like you mentioned, I think says a lot about music as an asset class, music as an investment in general. Look, five years ago, how many publicly traded music companies were there? I mean, Spotify has been public for about five years. Pandora was before it was bought by Sirius. You know, but you didn't have Tencent, you didn't have Cloud Music, you didn't have Anghami, you didn't have Deezer, you didn't have Reservoir Media, or Believe. Warner was private. Universal was private. So the fact that Wall Street has taken a liking to music, I think says a lot despite what the stock prices say right now. 

[00:44:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I agree. The fact that this wasn't even possible, just shows what's happened. And a lot of companies, even outside of music, are starting to have money at least level back off now that the pandemic is over, now that the quarantine highs for a lot of these stocks are over. I'm interested to see where did things go from here, because I still believe that there's a ton of potential in each of these companies if the expectations and if the investors expectations of the market are where they need to be. I still think that music is a hot and a popular asset class, especially for investors. But is it 30 x value? Is it 30 x multiples for some of these catalogs that just bring 'em to certain valuations, or does it need to be more level? Because I do think that there's still plenty of value if those multiples and a lot of those things are where they should be. And even thinking about whether it's live entertainment or streaming in general, I think there's still plenty of room for growth. There's still a lot of opportunities there, but it's just being able to get a clear idea on, what is the actual TAM? What is the actual total addressable market for these areas? And I think if anything, you saw that challenge happen with a lot of the discourse around Netflix and what the future is there, you started to saw things drop right around they had, you know, around 220 million subscribers. I think Spotify was likely asking similar questions, too, and I still think there's growth, you know, for the right price there's always going to be something, but what that price would be and how many people are willing to pay for it, knowing that, of course, if it's a paid product, you're not going to hit all 8 billion people in the world. But there is some actual number out there. So I think the more clarity that there is on that, and of course that's part of the game to figure that out, but the closer that you can get to what that actually is, the more that investors can make sound decisions. 

[00:46:25] Glenn Peoples: Yeah. You know, as we're talking now, there's a lot going on. We're a couple of hours away from Spotify releasing third-quarter earnings, which will, I'm not sure how much that'll say, look, that's backward-looking, but the company will take the opportunity to talk about a lot of things investors and analysts are curious about. Yesterday Apple announced it was raising prices for Apple Music and Apple TV Plus, and the Apple bundle. And YouTube premium prices went up as well, I believe, for the family plan only. And what do we see today? What we see Universal shares went up almost 12% and closed. They're trading the Netherlands, so that's already closed. In the middle of the day, Warner Music was up 7% to 8% at its best. Believe was up. Hipgnosis shares were up about, and those closed, that trades in London. That closed up about 8% I think. So investors, I think, get the news that they've really been waiting for, that prices are finally going to go up. You know, Netflix has raised prices. Pricing in streaming video on demand is a lot more flexible than it is for music and music prices have barely budged in over a decade, and executives have been saying for months and for years that prices will go up. But they haven't. 

[00:47:45] Dan Runcie: Why do think it took this long? 

[00:47:47] Glenn Peoples: Well, I think, companies were much more concerned about growing the market than maximizing revenue per customer. Is it more important to get the customer in the door or to charge more per customers is the question, and I think that they've been much more concerned about building the customer base and building relationships. And then at some point, it's a timing issue. When do you raise price? When can you do it without turning people off? And I think what we see these days with inflation is what it is, is companies might feel a little more emboldened to just raise price and think they can get away with it. Name one price that's not up in the last year. Except music streaming, it seems like everything else is up. And so somebody had to be, you know, first to do it and YouTube and Apple did it, which could embolden Spotify to do it finally. And I think my impression of Universal's shares going up almost 12% is that they think Spotify's going to raise prices as well. That doesn't seem like a bump just from Apple. That seems like a bump from broad price increases across the board.

[00:48:51] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I would agree. I think that it's going to happen and the reason why I think it probably hasn't happened until this point I was talking to Will Page about this, who is a former chief economist at Spotify. And his perspective on it was that the difference, and it was mine as well, the difference between why a company like Netflix would continue to increase prices but Spotify hasn't a bit in line with the type of content that you're getting. In a lot of ways, Spotify and Apple are offering a lot of the same thing. Sure. I know Spotify has its podcasting, Apple has its podcasting and non-music audio, and we'll talk about that in a second. But I think when they're all offering the same thing, then there's a bit more pressure to try to offer price discounts and bundles and stuff like that as opposed to Netflix or some of those companies offering differentiated content. So you're more buying into something that you're going to get on Netflix that you can't get on Hulu or on Disney Plus, or on HBO Max or one of the other services. So I feel like there's a factor of it there. And I remember a few years ago there was some tests about it and some discussions where in Europe they were exploring what. 12.99 would look like, or maybe it was 13.99. But I didn't hear anything necessarily come definitive from that. Maybe it was 11.99, but there was some price increase that they were exploring in Europe. So it feels like it's inevitable that Spotify will join in and yeah, if your price is going to increase 10%, then your stock price will likely increase around 10% as well.

[00:50:22] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, that makes sense. Most people look at how much revenue a company takes in every month. ARPU, average revenue per user, Spotify considers a metric lifetime value. And so it's not focused solely on price. Price plays into lifetime value, but so does churn rate, and the family plan is something that is reduced churn rate. As churn goes down, lifetime value goes up. I mean, for a subscription business, what you don't want are people coming in and out and churning in and churning out and taking time off or just leaving the subscription service for good. So if you cut down churn rate, the value goes up, and that's more value to creators. That's more value to publishers, to record labels, and to Spotify without raising price. If you can work on lifetime value without having to raise price, that might be the low-hanging fruit that you do in the meantime before you consider raising prices. And now it appears like everybody's to the point where they say, okay, now we can raise prices.

[00:51:22] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. I think the fact that we're here says a lot. So we'll continue to see, and I'm sure that the next price increase after this probably won't take this long if this is the one that got us here. The thing with Spotify though, is I'm sure we'll see what investors feel more broadly about the company's strategy because non-music, audio and podcasting specifically has been part of its big bet on how it can have better margins, how it can just essentially make more money and have something that they can continue to grow. But there's been a lot of pushback. There's been a lot of canceled shows and studios, and some of that's standard for the industry. But some of it also feels like there's more and more question marks on, okay, they've spent billions on this. Is this going to work? Is this going to take off the way that they expect it to? What's your current take on the future outlook for Spotify's non-music audio strategy? 

[00:52:16] Glenn Peoples: I think it's a good strategy. You build up a platform starting with music. You attract hundreds of thousands of users and then you turn it into an audio platform that's not just music and you introduce spoken word content. I think it's going to take quite a few years. So I think expecting changes, you know, we're only two years into some of their acquisitions for podcast studios and for platforms such as Megaphone. I know investors might not want to wait five years, but it's going to take a while. And, you know, long-term Spotify thinks that they can get some pretty good margins out of podcasts, margins that exceed what they get from music. They think that they can get the math when I look at audiobook margins, they bought an audiobook distributor called Findaway. And I think as retailer and distributor, Spotify gets about 60% of sales. Audiobook download margins are pretty good and that's about double what they're going to get for music. How much business is out there for audiobooks? Yeah, I mean, right now probably not that much, but over time I'm sure they can build it into something much more considerable. And, you know, if it's 60% gross margin, that's really good. You're not going to get that in music. You can build a platform based on music, but then eventually you got to go looking elsewhere for margins. And so I think it can work out for Spotify, it's just going to take a while and some people might not have much patience. I get that. But it's going to take a while. 

[00:53:41] Dan Runcie: It's something I've thought a lot about because I understand that podcasting itself is something where the audience takes time to build. You want to be able to see these shows grow over time. But I also think that so much of their biggest growth has come from acquiring shows that are already popular. And I know they've made big acquisitions, whether as with Gimlet or with The Ringer, or they have the exclusive deal with, or the licensing deal with Joe Rogan. But how many others of those are out there that they haven't necessarily had? Are there going to be more in-house ones that can build up? Because I feel like one of the challenges I've seen with the strategy is that they've had a lot of money spent on getting these big-name celebrities to then have shows where they have other big-name celebrities as guests and things like that. And a lot of that is antithetical to what's made so much of podcasting be effective for a lot of folks. And sometimes it works well, but a lot of times it doesn't. And it's content. You do have to make some bets, but I'm interested to see how many more of those wins that are going to be out there for them, because that's the piece that at least gives you some bump 'cause at least we've seen the numbers and successes from the popular acquisitions, the shows that they've had. It's the in-house development where I think by nature there is a natural, whether it's just the likelihood of success of you're starting anything new, not everything is going to take off, but the real success metric will be, okay, two, three years from now, we're there Spotify originals that are at the top of the charts and are creating and demanding that audience the same way that some of these other shows, whether it's outside of the network or some of the ones that they've acquired are able to do?

[00:55:23] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, it looks to me like they have kind of a three-prong attack where they spend mightily for somebody like Joe Rogan and that's not going to last forever. That licensing deal will be up, I don't know, maybe next year. And what do they renew or do they go spend a lot of money on somebody else? I mean, Joe Rogan brings 'em a lot of a lot of listeners I'd wager. So they have a very small number of really big shows, and then they have a lot of in-house shows with Parcast, The Ringer, Gimlet, and they can go acquire some other ones. And then they have a lot of DIY stuff. And then you get into the long tail. And this is where I think there's a lot of potential to monetize listening just like there would be in music. They bought a platform called Anchor. That's a podcast creation and distribution. Megaphone rather, is more the distribution tool. And so they have the infrastructure in place to let people create shows, distribute shows, and now they can monetize those shows. Now, do advertisers want to monetize or advertise against, you know, podcasts nobody's heard of. Not sure exactly how that's going to work. You might be not getting good advertising dollars on some of the shows, but to the extent that you can monetize the long tail podcast, Spotify is building that. And if anybody can do it, it looks like they could. So it's not about Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan might have been something just to get his podcast business off the ground, a very expensive way to get his podcast business off the ground and get it noticed by listeners and noticed by advertisers. And they might not, you know, have another Rogan after that deals up. But there's a lot of stuff out there to acquire. You know, Spotify, you take a look at the top 50 or a hundred shows. Spotify is Rogan and Call Her Daddy and maybe one other one. But there's a lot of stuff out there that they could go after. But again, this is kind of the long tail and maybe the midtier stuff that would be in-house productions. I think that really is the test of how they're going to do in podcasting at scale how can they monetize the long tail of podcast? 

[00:57:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think the other thing that's an advantage for them is the advertising business and being able to not just offer, but sell better data to advertisers on who's actually listening to podcasts because outside of Spotify, using podcasts downloads, or relying on some of these third-party tools to be able to tell you how well a show's actually doing is not the best way to actually determine if people are listening. There's so many shows out there that now have ghost downloads from people that we're downloading and subscribing to these shows back in 2014, 2015, 2016, that are no longer listening to those shows, but because of the metric of downloads, It's essentially an RSS feed. They don't know if you and I are actually listening to a show versus it actually being downloaded. I'm talking about more from Apple Podcasts and from other places outside of Spotify itself. Spotify's advantage is the fact that it can provide data just as precise is what it does in streaming, essentially. Are these people listening for at least 30 seconds? Are they going and listening to the middle? And I know some of this exists with Chartable and some of these other tools, but that's the advantage that Spotify has. So if you can essentially have that, offer that to your advertisers and then say, hey, this is the better data to base it on, not self-reported podcast downloads, which is a very tough metric to use if you're trying to base that purely on advertising. This is how you can ensure that you're reaching the right people. And I do think if you have enough of a catalog there and you're able to monetize enough, then in principle, you could then pull the advertisers yourself. And if you pull them, then I think that helps also attract the shows. And you can become not just the dominant platform, but the dominant platform that can monetize as well.

[00:59:08] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, well see. You have a lot of insight. You're a podcaster, so you have a lot of insight into what Spotify's doing. As a podcaster, how is the platform for you? Do you get a lot of listeners from Spotify? 

[00:59:18] Dan Runcie: There's other platforms that I still get more listeners for. Like, I still get more from Apple Podcasts, I would say. But it's up there though. It's interesting because even though I get more listeners from Apple Podcast, if I put a link in my newsletter that has the Apple Podcast link or the Spotify link of where to listen, more people click on the Spotify link. So that also makes me think, okay, one of these is measuring what's already been there, people that could have been listened to my podcast since 2019 to prove my point when I started it, versus what's capturing things now. And I think as we're just seeing Spotify continue to grow and we're seeing more and more stats of how, I forget the exact metric, but them becoming one of the more popular places for listeners to listen to a podcast. The data that I'm seeing on my side, even though I haven't precisely calculated it, more so a gut check of when I'm checking my newsletter analytics, I'm like, okay, I can see where this is trending.

[01:00:12] Glenn Peoples: I think it helps Spotify that they're just an innovative company that is always improving the product, right? So, you know, who knows what they'll end up doing with podcast. They could revolutionize how we listening to it. 

[01:00:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The other thing, too, that made me think of it, you mentioned audiobooks earlier, and I feel like there's an opportunity for innovation there because audiobooks themselves, I think to date have in many ways just been looked at as another channel that's a companion to people either buying a physical book or downloading something on a tablet to read. But how can the art of creating an audio podcast feel similar to these high-production podcasts that we hear that sound like they are, you know, made by multiple people in a studio show? I think Malcolm Gladwell did something like this with his most recent book the Think Like Strangers, I forget the exact name, but something like Strangers where it sounded like his podcast does. You know, it's high produced, you can get a bit more variety. It's not just some voice actor that they paid, you know, some flat fee for, and then that's just what's uploaded as the audiobook. So if you're able to create that as its own unique experience, I think that there's an opportunity there with audiobooks. So I'm interested to see if the art and the content itself around those will continue to improve.

[01:01:31] Glenn Peoples: I would love a company like Spotify to breathe some life into audiobooks. I used to do a lot more audiobooks than I used to. And you know, what's changed? I think what's changed is just the podcast platforms that are available that make it easier to listen to and find podcasts. I'm not much of an audiobook buyer anymore. But I would say that my audiobook listening has been cannibalized by podcast. 

[01:01:54] Dan Runcie: And I think some of that, too, like if it's in the same app, it's something that you're already using. I feel like there's an opportunity there because although it's been a while since I've used the Audible app, I have to imagine that the Spotify app is much less friction to be able to be like, I want to listen to this. Boom, here, let me click and listen to the thing. And it's a game of, yeah, how can you make it as easy as possible for the consumer. So yeah, it'd be interesting to see how that space develops. The last topic I want to chat about though before we end things is TikTok. I know you've written about this recently. TikTok has been trying to get into a number of areas, specifically streaming, and I'd be curious to hear your take on them, not just their potential in streaming, but what their strategy is overall in music and how you see them working, either not just alongside, but also competing with not just the streaming services, but other companies that are part of this, that are part of this chain of the, you know, music ecosystem.

[01:02:53] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, I think TikTok is fascinating as far as TikTok launching a streaming service. I mean, that makes perfect sense. I mean, why would you not? TikTok sends a lot of traffic to streaming services. If you could keep people on the platform, or at least on an app from the same company, rather than sending them off to Apple Music or YouTube or Spotify after they see a video on TikTok, I think that's probably a better, I would say, it's a better listener experience. But you know, what we've seen over the years is people use the apps they want to use. You can't force-feed people an app. You can stick it on a device. It doesn't mean they're going to use it. People will use what they want to use and TikTok would have to build a pretty amazing music streaming platform for people to use it. And I guess the question is could they grow the market rather than just take customers away from the Spotifys and Apple Musics in the YouTubes? Yeah, I guess so. There's always that, but I always think of it as more of a zero-sum game that TikTok would be taking business away from others. On paper it makes perfect sense. You know, Billboard's done a really good reporting, had some really good articles about the impact TikTok has had on the business. You know, most recently there was an article about how it's just kind of, thrown A&R executives' lives into disarray because it's, it's very hard to capitalize on TikTok success, which everybody wants. It's much more random than sending something to streaming services or sending something to radio and promoting it. It's much more grassroots and not so top-down. So it's unpredictable on what's going to hit. And that's not a good way to promote music, not knowing what people are going to end up listening to, so it makes labels' lives difficult in that aspect. On the other hand, I think labels are probably pretty happy that there's an app out there that customers want to spend a lot of time with and potentially spend money on, and that they are licensing music too and they'll get royalties from. So, you know, labels don't build these platforms themselves. They have to count on other companies to do that. And I read articles every now and then that says that TikTok is going to be the death of labels. Now labels have to partner with these platforms. That's what they do. They don't build the platforms themselves. And TikTok has a great platform. And so it's another one to work with. The question is, is it ultimately good for the labels? Yeah, maybe they honestly don't have a choice. They have to work with TikTok. They have to go where the consumers are. But I think it's ultimately probably a net win even though it's, really thrown things into disarray and changed how people discover music, and it's just not as simple a path as it used to be in promoting music and get people to listen to it.

[01:05:28] Dan Runcie: You brought up a few things that I want to circle back on because I think they're important to highlight. One, if you look TikTok's overall strategy, I agree this is something that they should naturally do. If you're the person that has the top of the funnel, then you would want to identify ways that you could do it yourself instead of having another app that is relying on yours to capture that same traffic and to capture that same business opportunity. That said, does that mean that you will succeed? Not necessarily. I think as we both understand and see, it takes a lot to have a platform that gets to where Apple Music has gotten to, to get to where Spotify's gotten to, even where Amazon Music and some of these other digital streaming providers have gotten to. It takes a considerable amount of time to get there. So being able to do that effectively and being able to necessarily grow the market and do that, I think it's tough. Are there regions that TikTok is going to reach that Spotify and Apple have not already spent millions of dollars trying to reach? Probably not, which does turn it into a bit of a zero-sum game. And then are you going to be able to try to offer it at a different cost? Are you going to try to do any of these things that really make it stand out? Not necessarily. And I think one of the bigger challenges, too, is just the consumer behavior that someone has when they're going into TikTok. It has grown as fast as it has because it's an app that doesn't require much active engagement. You can sit there and passively scroll through everything. It's a very passive entertaining experience. Streaming is not that. You have to go and find who you want to listen to. Even if you want to go check out the latest album, you have to go type in that person's name unless they're the biggest star in the world, and they may happen to be on the app when you open it. You got to type in the person's name to figure that out. So shifting that consumer mindset, I think is tough if that's what they're used to in your app. So I think that piece of it is going to be a bit of a challenge for them. And I think in general, we're kind of seeing TikTok adopt a bit of that Facebook strategy, where Facebook is a company that has tried to do any and everything because they're like, hey, we have billions of users. We are the biggest platform in the world. Let's try to do all these things. And more likely than not, Facebook doesn't succeed at a lot of these things. It's more likely to succeed at the things that are naturally aligned with why someone would want to be on Facebook to begin with, and whether it's Facebook's dating services or any of these other things that just didn't necessarily take off the way it could, I think that there could be, you know, some similar type of risk if you're thinking about TikTok. Even though it is aligned with music, even though there's a lot of these things, the mindset that a consumer has when they are going into a streaming service that requires on-demand activity is very different than a passive social media experience.

[01:08:13] Glenn Peoples: Yeah, I think those are really good points. There's no guarantee that TikTok is going to make a winning music subscription service if that's what it chose to do. It's just not that easy. I mean, there are companies with big head starts who have built really good apps and have a lot of momentum. And you know, the thing that I've noticed over the years with subscription services and music streaming, in general, is that you have to have an excellent product. Having a pretty good product just doesn't cut it anymore. And there are a lot of music services that have been pretty good that have just gone out of business 'cause pretty good doesn't do it. With ByteDance and with TikTok, you have to assume that they could put together pretty good service. I would bet, better than average. And can they do better than that? Possibly. And what could they do differently that would transform it? And maybe that's the question. Do they need to do a transformative subscription service? Or can they just do something that's a little more traditional and not try to build a new mousetrap? Maybe that's the better option. You know, I'm not sure, but I think, people shouldn't expect that TikTok is just going to clean up the competition because they have a very popular short-form video app. That's just a different experience than what they would be getting into. 

[01:09:22] Dan Runcie: Agreed. Streaming is a very different game. It'd be interesting to see how it plays out. But Glenn, before we wrap things up and let you go, how do you think the Global Music Index that you created, how do you think things will look at 2023? What's your take on how you think certain things will play out in the index?

[01:09:39] Glenn Peoples: There's so much negative forecast out there for 2023. There's a lot of economic experts saying that there's going to be a recession in 2023. You know, normally I would say, boy, probably pretty good. You know, the time to buy a stock is not when it's high. It's time to buy is when it's low. So right now the index is starting from would be starting year at a pretty low place. It's just that they're pretty dark clouds on 2023. It's really hard to say how it's going to play out. There's just a lot of really bad expectations for next year. So I think that as far as these stocks have fallen, they're not out of the woods yet. And I don't think we can assume that they're going to turn around and start growing next year. But if you look at 2022 as kind of a correction to maybe some stocks that were overvalued, then they're starting in a better place.

[01:10:27] Dan Runcie: That's true. Maybe the overvaluation may have some, or the overvaluation of the overcorrection rather could lead things off to a good start. So it'll be exciting to see for sure. And we'll definitely be keeping an eye on the index itself. Once again, good job creating that. I think a lot of people were looking for a way to just capture everything that's going in the industry. So it'll be good to continue tracking it. And Glenn, thanks for coming on. It was great to touch base on so many important topics, and I'm sure we can have a similar conversation like this soon. 

[01:10:54] Glenn Peoples: Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. 

[01:10:56] Dan Runcie: Thank you.

[01:10:59] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 4362 no How a16z’s Cultural Leadership Fund Is Putting More Black Dollars in Tech https://www.trapital.com/podcast Megan Holston-Alexander is a partner at Andreessen Horowitz Cultural Leadership Fund. It’s the first VC fund that raised money exclusively from Black leaders — from entertainment to sports to business. The fund co-invests with a16z’s other funds and has raised more than $60 million across its three funds to date. The overarching purpose of CLF is to create generational wealth opportunities for Black communities. It’s a two-pronged approach. The first is getting Black dollars directly on the cap tables of high-potential startup companies. And the second is creating a pipeline for more Black talent at early-stage companies.  Megan joined me on the show on the heels of hosting the first-ever Cultural Leadership Summit and announcing CLF III before then. Here’s everything we covered during our conversation: [2:39] Takeaways from the Cultural Leadership Summit [5:19] Building despite economic uncertainties  [7:36] High-worth individuals also affected by macro economy  [9:05] How has the Cultural Leadership Fund evolved? [14:54] Difference between entertainment and executive LP’s [17:16] Web3’s knowledge imbalance   [19:16] Megan’s interest in DAO’s [20:58] Will CLF’s investment model change? [22:42] How CLF used relationships and trust-building to scale its operation  [28:35] Megan’s vetting process with LP’s [36:02] How VC industry at-large can create more opportunities for black founders and talent  [39:15] Has the Bay Area lost its monopoly on tech?  [44:59] What CLF is focusing on in 2023 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Megan Holston-Alexander, @meghalexander   Download The Culture Report here: https://trapital.ck.page/a23b7a6a4a   Sponsors: MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Megan Holston Alexander: What we hadn't considered on the executive side is, while the athletes and our kind of entertainers can partner on different things or, like, help them go into new markets, when it came down to, like, core operations or how you should run on your board, or how to think about hiring X, Y, and Z, our black executives, like, hold that information, like, in the palm of their hands. These are people who've been, you know, operators for 20 or 30 years, and so they brought kind of an additional level of skill and kind of insight to bolster what our other LPs on the more kind of athlete or entertainment side were doing.   [00:00:40] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:01:01] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Megan Holston Alexander. She's a partner at Andreessen Horowitz, currently leading its Cultural Leadership Fund. And to date, this fund has raised over 60 million, invested in over 300 Andreessen Horowitz portfolio companies, and has brought over a hundred black leaders into this space. I'm talking to Megan right after the Cultural Leadership Fund hosted its first-ever in-person summit. It was a pleasure to attend that summit myself and meet so many of the people that are friends of the fund, LPs of the fund, and really make it what it is. So this conversation, we talked a little bit about what it was like bringing that event together, especially after the pandemic. We also talked about how events like that fit within the fund's overall strategy and how that strategy has evolved over the past few years. For a little bit of background, the LPs in the Cultural Leadership Fund are all black, and it is one of the first funds to have ever done that in the VC space, and specifically, to date, a lot of the investors had been athletes and entertainers, but Megan talked a little bit about how they've expanded to bring on more black executives, what that looks like, and how that ultimately helps support the goal of the fund even more. One of the fund's other goals is to increase the amount of black talent and interest in tech. So we talk about what some of the opportunities are, what some of the challenges are, and what the VC community can do to help improve this even more. Great conversation, so many insightful points that Megan shared. I enjoyed this conversation and I know you will too, especially if you are an investor or you're a founder yourself. Here's my chat with Megan.  [00:02:39] Dan Runcie: All right, today we have Megan Holston Alexander from Andreessen Horowitz Culture Leadership Fund, and first, I got to say congratulations on an amazing summit. It was a great event to be a part of and to attend. How does it feel for you now being on the heels of that and just seeing the impact of everything?  [00:02:57] Megan Holston Alexander: Yeah, so thank you so much for coming. It means so much that people would be interested enough and engaged enough to spend time with us away from their, you know, everyday grind. But we're really pleased with how it turned out. We were motivated because so many of our LPs had said to us, we want to get together, we want to meet each other, we want to meet the founders, we want to meet the investment team. So as an LP and kind of partner summit, I think it had the intended effect and it seemed like people really enjoyed their time, but also learned a ton. So I could not be happier. I will say I was telling myself that after it was over, I was going to have so much time to, like, get so much other stuff done, but, like, it just never, it never stopped. So, we were really proud of what we were able to put on. [00:03:38] Dan Runcie: 'Cause I'm sure an event like that makes you think about what else you could do, right? I'm sure you had a bunch of people buzzing with ideas on what other in-person events or what other things could look like, too.  [00:03:48] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. And that's always the hope, right? We bring people into a room together in hopes that, like, we can help some serendipity happen. So many people in our network work on similar things or adjacent things or things that would have a really nice kind of partnership together. And so anytime we get to make those introductions, our hope is that people will be buzzing after, and have ideas for events and programs and partnerships. So we'll see what comes out of it.  [00:04:12] Dan Runcie: And I imagine that a lot of this probably had been in the plans for a while. It was just a matter of timing. So much of CLFs rise and growth had happened during the pandemic as well. And it was just a matter of, okay, when can you bring people together safely to make something like this happen?  [00:04:28] Megan Holston Alexander: Yeah. Yeah. And when I say it was three years in the making. I am not kidding, because we were planning actually to host the first summit in 2020. So we were in process of like, you know, picking out venues and cities and where we wanted to be. And then, like, so many people when the pandemic hit that spring, it just kind of cleared everybody's calendars. And so it's nice to know that 2 and a half years after the original that the motive was still the same and the demand for what we were building was still the same that we got to put it on, I think, even better than we could have hoped in 2020. [00:05:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I agree. And then looking at, now, you, of course, get to have it on the tail end of your announcement for fund three. You've now raised over $60 million for this fund. What was it like raising in this climate though, just given where things are with the market and how things have been so far in 2022?  [00:05:19] Megan Holston Alexander: Yeah, totally. Totally. So when it comes to like the market environment, you just never know what's going to happen and unintentionally, you know, I actually got to raise ahead of kind of the market changing earlier in the spring. And that was actually because I was expecting and planning to be a new mom. And the firm was really supportive of that. And they said, okay, kind of up to you. Do you want to do it before mat leaves? Do you want to wait until the fall when you come back? And me being like, I don't want to think about this while I'm trying to raise a baby. I was like, Let's knock it out early. So lucky enough, you know, I was able to close that out before people really started tightening their belts. But, you know, as a firm, we really believe that, you know, no matter what the economy looks like, what the macro, you know, face of the world looks like, builders are always building. And even more so, during times when they can be home and spend time thinking about the problems that they want to solve. And so our hope is that, you know, even in moments like that, we can still really rely on founders to keep, you know, pushing great, great companies out.  [00:06:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I like to think of these moments as well as when you do start to filter out some of the companies or ideas that maybe were a bit more fleeting, and you can focus on the real things happening, you look at the last economic downturn that we had, and all of the companies that came from that timeframe, too. So I feel like the call to action for so many fund managers like yourself, you mentioned the LPs or even to others is, like you just said, people are still building, and if anything, it's the real companies that are going to come out of this timeframe. [00:06:46] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. And then a piece that I would add onto that is in these moments, while we know that like great companies will be built, we don't truly know what they are because people do build for the time and you don't know what kind of instances will be, like, permanent behavior changes or what things are like, just for now, it seems like it's a, you know, a really good idea, but in six months people won't behave the same way. And so the hope is that you just always try to lean in the things that you think will have kind of staying power. But you just try to do risk reduction.  [00:07:15] Dan Runcie: Right, Right. And I assume, too, from a fundraising perspective with you and this fund specifically, because a lot of the LPs are high net worth individuals, some of their willingness to invest in funds hasn't necessarily changed as much as some of the more institutional investing in things that we've seen in the past year or so. [00:07:36] Megan Holston Alexander: Yeah. So actually I might argue the opposite. So when you're dealing with individuals, right, in their personal wealth and people who are really new to venture, right? That's a really, really scary moment because venture is a long-term play, right? It's not like you put your money in and then two or three weeks later, you can be like, Hey, Megan, where are my dollars? And so making a long-term commitment like that during a period of economic uncertainty is actually more difficult for an individual than it would be for an institution because one, it's not any particular individual's capital, but also institutions have much kind of more thorough game plans, right? They know what percentage they're putting into venture versus private equity versus, you know, bonds or whatever the case may be. So they're kind of more consistent and they understand that the market kind of goes up and down and that there will be moments like this, and it's actually a little bit more difficult when it comes to individuals to kind of get them over that hump. [00:08:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's fair. Because I do think that even in some conversations I've had with folks, things like the price of Bitcoin or the price of Ethereum having a pretty impactful influence on what their net worth is and their own willingness to invest in particular things.  [00:08:46] Megan Holston Alexander: For sure.  [00:08:47] Dan Runcie: And for you with this fund, specifically, now fund three, but the fund itself has been around for a few years now. Do you feel like the vision for the fund has evolved at all in that time? I mean, I feel like the core mission is the same, but have any of the ways that you've either talked or pitched the fund evolved in that timeframe?  [00:09:05] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. So I think you're right. We've kept our two kind of core missions the same, but what we do understand now is there are a number of different ways to execute on it. So if you will bear with me, I'm happy to share kind of two, you know, how that looks on both missions. So on the first mission of connecting the world's greatest cultural leaders to the best new technology companies. You know, historically we set, you know, athletes and entertainers and musicians, people who, from, you know, a large scale of consumerism have contributed to cultural change. But over time we've realized black executives also have like a really, really huge impact on this space. So people who are in leadership roles at Fortune 100 companies, or even at startup companies, they can have a huge impact on culture and consumer behavior more generally. And so we wanted to be sure that we really leaned into bringing in more black executives into the fund than we ever had before. And that has proven to be really helpful for the firm because they end up being, you know, equally if not more useful to the portfolio than the musicians and the singers, and the actors, et cetera. And so we have really enjoyed kind of expanding and involving that side of the network. And then on the second side of getting more young African Americans in tech, you know, fo fund one, we committed all of our management fees and carried to, like, one set of organizations. We picked them in the beginning and wanted to support them through the life of the fund. But what we realized by fund two was like, well, that doesn't really give us an opportunity to invest in new non-profits that are kind of on the cutting edge of technology, right? As things are growing and changing, we want folks who are being innovative on the non-profit side as well. And so what we did for fund two and now for fund three is we opened up kind of the spectrum of what we would support from a non-profit perspective to kind of match where we thought the technology world was going. So for fund one, you see a supporting kind of big well-known organizations that have proven over time if they are directly putting black folks into the pipeline for technology. But now we're saying like, okay, how do we add to this? Well, Web 3.0 is a huge thing, not only as a space for investment for the firm, but also generally of wanting to be sure that black folks don't get left behind in this Web 3.0 revolution. So we support organizations like crypto tutors that is meant to do just that, and that's not something we would've had insight into in that first fund. Gaming is also a new, huge area in technology. It is now, I think, you know, people play games more than they watch TV based on current research. And so how do we ensure that black folks are being supported in the gaming industry? So now we support black and gaming. We support the Black Collegiate Gaming Association. So just ensuring that our philanthropic efforts can support and are aligned with what we're doing as a firm and where technology is going overall.  [00:11:51] Dan Runcie: I actually want to talk about each of those two things separately. Let me go back to the first one.  [00:11:55] Megan Holston Alexander: Let's do it.  [00:11:56] Dan Runcie: I think it was really interesting what you said about athletes and that sector around sports in general, if I heard you correctly, them being but not even more influential or helpful for the fund overall, but maybe relative to some of the other folks, whether it's your LP such as your musicians or entertainers. Did I catch that right?  [00:12:16] Megan Holston Alexander: If I'm hearing what you're saying, you're saying that I said that the athletes are not as useful? [00:12:20] Dan Runcie: Oh, the other way around. Like, more useful than, like, some of the others that work with the fund? [00:12:24] Megan Holston Alexander: Well, I was saying, from the executive side, did I say athletes and not executives? [00:12:28] Dan Runcie: I think it was athletes. [00:12:29] Megan Holston Alexander: Maybe I misspoke. But what I was essentially trying to say is from a cultural leadership perspective, historically, it has very much been athletes and entertainers and we wanted to involve, we wanted to evolve our kind of mission overall to include more black executives. [00:12:45] Dan Runcie: That was helpful. Yeah, 'cause I was curious to tap into more about like, why that is and how that's impacted the fund so far.  [00:12:52] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. Because I feel like, everybody thinks that when you bring on like just a celebrity, everything skyrockets, right? That it's just like, ooh, if you put this name on there, things just grow. And that's not always necessarily the case. We've, you know, really supported our companies in being thoughtful and strategic around the ways in which you use a celebrity. And we've also been, you know, in deep conversations with our kind of LP network and our network at large about wanting to be more than like a disengaged kind of passive investor. And so they love partnering with the portfolio companies, et cetera. But what we hadn't considered on the executive side is, while the athletes and our kind of entertainers can partner on different things or like help them go into new markets or help them with the launch of a new product, when it came down to like core operations or how you should run on your board, or how to think about hiring X, Y, and Z, like, our black executives, like hold that information like in the palm of their hands. These are people who've been, you know, operators for 20 or 30 years, and so they brought kind of an additional level of skill and kind of insight to bolster what our other LPs on the more kind of athlete or entertainment side were doing. So now we have this really robust group of black cultural leaders who can help in a number of different areas. [00:14:07] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Yeah, I mean, we see the influence, we see how influential they are in all of these sectors, and if you're thinking about just like how your fund is structured, I know that you do have different folks on the team focused in sports, focused in entertainment more broadly, and I feel like eventually having, you know, whether it's even more of those or just being able find the best ways to lock in on talent, because I think we're seeing this more and more. I think a lot about like, let's say like 10-plus years ago when we saw the era of a lot of artists being named as creative directors for particular companies. And some of those turned into, you know, really flourishing partnerships, and some of them necessarily didn't. But now, and I feel like your fund was timing this. You captured this moment where we're seeing more than that.  [00:14:54] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep, absolutely. And it's not just because you know, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And it's not just because, and not only because, you know, athletes and kind of other entertainment folks want to be more engaged, but quite frankly startups are requiring it. They don't want you to just let your name on something and then you disappear and like, you know, take the money and run or whatever the case may be. And so what we're trying to do is really build up to kind of core groups of people who are interested in each other and want to work together. And so there should be an equal expectation when we bring our LPs in and on our startup side that the startups want to work with these LPs and they've been thoughtful about how they want to engage with them, right? So if you want a particular person, why, right? Why is this person the best fit for your company? And so we really challenge our companies on that, where it's not just like, you want to get the biggest name, but the person who will actually be most influential for the product that you're building. And on our LP side, we say like, okay, what is it about this company that makes you most interested that you want to bring to the table? So it really is about working together. We are trying very hard not to make it where it's just like, kind of one-off, really transactional doesn't make a lot of sense 'cause those tend to be the things that don't work out. We try to be thoughtful on all fronts.  [00:16:11] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. 'Cause it's like, otherwise, then it would just be like an Instagram ad or something like that, being like, oh, hey, go sponsor this product. And like, that's not what this is about.  [00:16:21] Megan Holston Alexander: And it doesn't make sense. Like, make it make sense. That's the most important thing for us because those are what can be fruitful. And then say it's something that, everything doesn't always work out, but if you went into it with the right intentions and everybody did their best, like, that's all you can hope for. And then those people usually want to work together again, even if it didn't work out. So we really do take this long view on relationships, not just as a firm, but as a fund and the way in which we interact with people and hope that they'll interact with each other.  [00:16:47] Dan Runcie: Right. And then at the second piece of what you were talking about, you talked about investing in companies that are ultimately helping to either further access or knowledge. Web 3.0 was an example and wanting to make sure that black talent doesn't get left behind in this space or in other spaces that may emerge. Where do you feel like things are right now? Do you feel like folks are on board? Do you feel like there's still a huge opportunity specifically with when it comes to Web 3.0 and black talent?  [00:17:16] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. I think until we get to a place where we feel like we have like, peer across the board equity, there's always work to be done. And being like an HBCU grad being from, you know, born and raised in Alabama, I have a very core sense of like what inequity looks like and how, what are the ways in which we can try to approach solutions to that problem. And so I think I'm lucky enough to have you know, that, sort of background where I can bring an interesting perspective into how we solve those problems. But I am finding that Web 3.0 overall has a lot of opportunity. One, because, like, nobody's an expert, right? Nobody's been doing Web 3.0 for 30 years. It is relatively new, right? There's people who've been doing it for the last 10 ish years, and there are a few people who are just really hardcore, but there is so many of our Web 3.0 companies, because there is just like a lack of, expertise in the space, they're just excited to get people who are interested and passionate about Web 3.0, right? So you kind of get to jump over this need for a long period of time having worked in X, Y, and Z or Web 3.0 in this case where you get to just work off of passion and start building the product. So that's one of the things I love about Web 3.0. The hard part is that there's a knowledge imbalance, right? It takes a lot of reading. It takes a lot of listening to podcasts and going through the a16z canon that a lot of people just don't have, right? The information is there, but everybody doesn't have time to read hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages on Web 3.0. And so the kind of that asynchronous ability to get information, I think, is where we have to fill in the gap. What is the answer to that? I'm not completely sure, but organizations like crypto tutors that I mentioned earlier, are making content easy, accessible, fun, really big on entertainment. And so while I think the opportunities are there for the roles, I do think we need to fill in the knowledge gap in terms of who gets the knowledge. [00:19:09] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And for you specifically, which areas of Web 3.0 are exciting you the most as an investor?  [00:19:16] Megan Holston Alexander: Whoa, well, you know, with CLF being a co-investment vehicle inside of the fund, I feel like I get lucky enough where I get to see all the cool stuff, but I don't have to make the strenuous, anxiety-ridden decisions about, you know, which ones to pick. I just get the benefit of spending time with them all after the fact. And so for me, I am most excited about and I'll just say the one piece that I've been looking into a lot lately is like, DAOs. I love this concept of like governance and people getting to vote on what they do with capital and making decisions of that, like, things to buy and things to sell. I think the way in which communities are being built around kind of DAOs and that type of governance is really interesting.  [00:20:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. I think some of these conversations, whether it's DAOs buying sports teams or Dows trying to get involved with different things, we'll see. I think, like anything, we're in the early days and some of these things will come to fruition but there's definitely something there. Just looking at how decentralized so many things are becoming then I think a lot of those things do need to.  [00:20:20] Megan Holston Alexander: Agreed and I think there's pros and cons of everything, and I think that's one of the things that, you know, gets missed in the hype cycle. There are things that will be really great about web 3.0 and there will be things that don't work out in the way that we hope, but in the end, we hope we shake out with the best kind of the pack.  [00:20:38] Dan Runcie: Right. And then you mentioned it earlier about just the way that CLF invests and you co-invest. So you do get to see all the things that come through and you're not necessarily picking or, you know, making them the investments yourself. But do you think that's something that may change with either the vision or the evolution of the fund itself, where you would be making those investments?  [00:20:58] Megan Holston Alexander: You know, we, at the firm, we never say never. We don't know what the future holds, but I think right now, the way that we've structured it, you know, we've got two really core goals at CLF, and the first is like getting black dollars onto the cap tables in Andreessen Horowitz companies and the more that I can do that, whether it's through co-investing or otherwise, I think that the structure that we have right now is one that works and that I'm I'm really pleased with. And then in that second mission or actually still the first mission, but the second way that we execute on it, right, so CLF has a fund and dollars out of that fund go into kind of the deals across a number of the funds inside of the firm. Not all of them, but most of them. But then the second thing that I get to do and spend a lot of time on, because I don't have to do, you know, a ton of that behind the scenes like diligence work, et cetera, is get additional strategic rounds for our portfolio companies. So not only is our LP base as a whole represented on the cap table, but anytime that there is a really thoughtful or smart partnership or somebody wants to add an additional strategic capital, we now can give even more black people on the cap table. And so I really enjoy spending my time doing that and I want to keep at it, but the firms, we never say never to stuff. Who knows? If it ever makes sense, we'll see.  [00:22:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And then I think too, you mentioned this a few times just in terms of how the firm is structured in terms of building and investing in relationships. And I think this is something that I know you've talked about in other interviews, something that rings true with a16z overall. Can you talk a little bit about the way that you have the divisions or the way that you have the different verticals for, whether it's entertainment or sports and some of the events that you attend as well, and how that helps the overall mission?  [00:22:42] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. So for CLF, you know, historically when probably two years ago when it was just me and Chris the two of us, we did everything right and we realized that if we really wanted CLF to scale and to grow and to really have an impact on the communities and generational wealth, we needed to scale what we were doing. We need to get more cultural leaders involved. We needed to be able to make more kind of partnership introductions, et cetera. And so the way that, you know, made sense was, okay, we've got these cultural leaders. How do we bring together the best at what they do in order to help manage these networks? So we brought in folks like Derek who have been on the management and agency side for a number of years to manage the entertainment vertical, right? So when you have one thing to focus on and it's only entertainers, you can make much more kind of clear and thoughtful decisions around who to introduce to whom or who to bring into this company, or when a portfolio company says, I need this type of person, you can make a quicker decision. We brought in Deb on the athlete side. She was a manager at Rock Nation Sports for a number of years, so she really just has the depth of knowledge. And not only that, they both have this really interesting knowledge just about who players are, but how we can structure deals with them, right? This is what they're used to, and now we're bringing in this tech side, how do we make those deal structures match, or how do we make it more, you know, favorable to everybody involved? And so they brought another level of rigor to the deals and the strategic rounds that we were putting together that we needed a lot. And then both Julie and I work on the executive side, which I said is burgeoning. And so we really try to specialize. One as a firm, right? We've got a crypto fund and a bio fund, and people who are specialized. We do the same thing inside of CLF. We try to have people focus on a swim lane. And it's proven to be successful. So far, we're really pleased with that decision.  [00:24:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think it's effective and I think the names that you've been able to have as LPs in each of the rounds speaks to that too. And at the end of the day, especially in these industries, of course, I know relationships drive everything, but I think it's more so in these industries because especially with some of these high net worth individuals in entertainment, there's so many people from coming out of the woodwork who are trying to swindle them out of stuff or trying to propose them the most horrible deals and investment opportunities. So I think that's where the value add is here, as opposed to, or even more so than someone else who, you know, isn't in these fields. So they're not necessarily getting as much of the crap, if you will, from the proposals. So being able to sift through the good ones. [00:25:12] Megan Holston Alexander: I think you brought up a really good point. And I think that point is trust, right? So when you have people coming out of the woodwork, like you said, with investment opportunities, I got a good investment opportunity for you. But that person has no real background to be able to speak to like kind of whatever that item is or whatever that company is. We try to really mitigate the risk for our LPs and, and kind of partners that we bring into rounds for CLF, like, we never bring deals to people that we haven't invested in ourselves, right? We feel like how can we tell you like, you should invest in this, but like we didn't do it. And so people know that anytime we bring something to them, it is fully invested through Andreessen Horowitz, like, process, deal team, GP, et cetera. And so we try to, you know, really eliminate risk for them. And obviously, we always have them, you know, do your own research. Here is the information you make the decision for yourself. But we just pride ourselves on building trust with people because if we mishandle people and we swindle people, like that gets around and then that doesn't benefit us, right? If it goes around like, oh, those. sneakers over there, a16z are doing that. But we feel like we have really put forth a concerted effort that people know that they can trust us and they share with their friends that they can trust us. And that really is I think how we try to maintain and engage with our network. And so far, you know, that network has been able to grow and we always say, you know, we're not going to sacrifice a relationship for a quick buck that's just not our style. That's not what we do. I hope that that is kind of what's making the rounds. But so far it feels like people really have built a lot of trust in us and we don't take that lightly. [00:26:53] Dan Runcie: And I do think that information and understanding of these things has just gotten better in decades overall. And couple that with the fact that this is venture capital. Of course, it's a risk. Most of the companies that we're investing in probably aren't going to take off, but the ones that do are going to hit. And you're doing it with a firm that has a track record in this. So I feel like there's so much transparency.  [00:27:16] Megan Holston Alexander: Well, I don't think I'm allowed to agree with that, so I'm just going to say okay. [00:27:20] Dan Runcie: Fair enough. Fair enough. And I think the difference there though is that I think about so many of these athletes, whether it's you get pitched on like opening restaurants with their name and all these other things that you know are just dated things. Of course, those things can still work. We've seen them be effective. But we've come a long way.  [00:27:39] Megan Holston Alexander: And then one of the other things is, you know, we tell people, you know, that invest in our fund to please consider us a resource when things like that come up, right? We say we're a VC firm in your back pocket, right? So if something comes your way and you want us to, like you have questions about it, you know, obviously we can't tell you what to do, but we can help you figure out what are the right questions to ask when these opportunities come in front of you. And so that education piece that we do, I think is really valued by a lot of the folks who trust us with their capital. [00:28:10] Dan Runcie: And then with your LP specifically, is there anything that you're specifically looking for from a vetting process? Like, not necessarily talking about like commitment levels or anything like that, but more so things that you're looking for 'cause earlier we're talking about, of course, we've come a long way from the celebrity investors slapping their name on things. But I'm sure there are probably still some out there that may want to do that. And you're making sure that that's not who you're attracting.  [00:28:35] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. I'm trying to tell you all my secrets. You know, the most important thing for us is that we have LPs who want to engage. We want people who are willing to like, you know, hop on a call with us and share their interests or if, you know, you join the fund and you are entered in particular deals or we, you know, come across a company that would be a really great fit for you to talk to, maybe just have a 15-minute conversation with the CEO. There are people who love opportunities like that. So people who want to engage and want to learn and spend time with us and spend time with our LPs is who we try to really, really lean into because it's a symbiotic relationship, We want to support them. But at the end of the day, like our largest goal is to support our portfolio companies and whether it's the a16z team, whether it's our LPs, like it's all hands on deck. And so I love people who come in and have a genuine curiosity and they're excited about technology and innovation and they want to play a role in things that are being built. And so, we love those conversations and you can kind of really tell, like I've had people who you would never think, people who you would think would be super disengaged. Like, that person is interested in tech who are, have gone down like the Web 3.0 rabbit hole and they're like, ooh, and I'm going to do like a token that has this, and then I'm going to give it to my whole community back in Texas or whatever. Like, really is just a really, really thoughtful people. You don't have to be an expert. Like, that's not what we're looking for, but we just look, want people who want to be involved.  [00:30:04] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. That makes sense. Shifting gears a bit on the talent side of things. We talked about it a little bit about how important it is to the fund to be able to just help develop this space and obviously your fund's doing its part. We talked about some of the areas that you're looking to invest in, how you're looking to just elevate this space overall, what do you think the rest of the VC community and landscape needs to be able to do to ultimately get things to where it should be.  [00:30:31] Megan Holston Alexander: Sorry, when you say get things to where they should be, you mean in terms of like talent as an employee of companies? You mean talent in what way?  [00:30:40] Dan Runcie: So I'm talking about talent in terms of whether it's black founders who are leading companies or black talent that are just interested in the space that are either going on to get jobs in the space or to work for other established companies, overall investing and then just being able to grow and see more black talent in tech. [00:30:59] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. So I'll start by saying there's no one way to do it. I think there are a number of different approaches that people can take. But I usually divide it up at least of this industry into three things. One, funds can, or you know, firms can support black founders, right, by putting capital directly into their hands so that they can build their companies. Two, they can help more black talent get into early stage companies, right? So, employee 10, employee 15, employee 20, because we know that early employee equity can really change a life, right, when a company has a liquidity event, whether it's an IPO or a sale that now that person has capital to start a company or to angel invest in companies and kind of create some generational wealth for themselves. And then the third thing is getting more black dollars on cap tables, right? So ownership stakes, not just monetizing on a platform, right, for all of the amazing things that we're creating, but actually having its ownership in the platform to create generational wealth. And CLF focuses on those last two, but there are a lot of firms, again, focused on, you know, funding black founders. I think kind of focusing on those three core areas can really create economic, you know, extreme economic kind of opportunities for the black community. And so, you know, with CLF focusing on those last two, I think we've got a really special niche that we get to support in a number of ways, which I mentioned before. [00:32:26] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like the closer that, or at least the more people, whether it's in this generation or in, you know, people that are a little bit older that are still trying to do it, being able to just get more focus on building generational. And just the knowledge and the mindset of it. I think all those things help. I think we're seeing more podcasts, more shows, more content from black folks that are specifically focused on this, which is great. I think, you know, there's never too much of it. So personally I think that I would love to be able to see more dollars and more hiring that happens in these places too 'cause I think we saw, especially in the past couple years, there was so many press releases that came from particular companies, and I think I saw recently there was a big tech founder that just announced, you know, a $400 million fund to invest. [00:33:16] Megan Holston Alexander: 400 million. Yeah, yeah.  [00:33:17] Dan Runcie: But like, wanted to be able to actually see the results from those and being able to see the impact and being able to see people, you know, become their own Robert Smiths that can then, you know, pay for, you know, tuition for a future class. The more of those we see, and it's not just the one, you know, few names we already know would be great and I think those things will happen, but ultimately I think that's what so many of us want to see in this space.  [00:33:39] Megan Holston Alexander: And there's so much embedded in this conversation, right? And I'll go on a little bit of an aside because I think one, we have to understand that like when we think about the future and black equity and empowerment, some people still don't care. Like, there are a lot of people who just do not care. It's not their problem. They don't want to help solve it. And then you have people who kind of commit to things but have no follow-through. And that's what we saw a lot of over the last couple of years. Like, after the murder of George Floyd, all these companies were like, yes, we're going to give this, we're going to do this. And then the follow-through two and a half years later is just not there. And then you have the people who are really, really committed but don't understand the expanse of the black community and think of it as a small sliver, like, really high, like, accelerators that they would want to support who still go to like a very specific set of schools, right, the talented tenth of the black people and are willing to support that. But then there is this holistic perspective around, like, non-monolithic blackness and how do we encourage economic empowerment and growth across the community as a whole? And that's what I want to get to. When we think about HBCUs, there's over a hundred of them, right? And how do we support more of them as opposed to like the same ones that get, you know, a ton of shine. Mind you, when it comes to HBCUs, like, they don't work outside of the community, be like, we depend on each other and we rely on each other. So, you know, I want to get to a more comprehensive perspective on, like, what supporting black economic empowerment looks like from a long-term perspective. So I think we'll get there, but there's a long way to go.  [00:35:25] Dan Runcie: What you just said reminds me of, there was one of the tech companies that announced that they were going to have a black board member and that someone was going to take their seat away and they were going to make the opportunity for a black board member. And people were very curious, okay, who should it be? And to the point that you're making, who can we elevate to that point? Who could we provide an opportunity for? And I think they ended up choosing one of the most successful and high-profile black founders in this space. And while it is great to see that person in that role, that wasn't creating a necessarily a new opportunity in that same type of way, and it goes back to the talented tenth thing.  [00:36:02] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. We're here. And you know, I think you bring up a good point when, and now we're about to get into black history, but that's okay 'cause this is for the people. Conceptually, when you think about the talented tenth that's, you know, W. E. B. Du Bois and, like, his concept from a sociological perspective, and you think about who he was at tension with the most, Booker T. Washington and this concept of the Atlanta Compromise. Two very powerful black men, the founder of Tuskegee University versus, like, the first black man to get a PhD at Harvard. Conceptually thinking there are multiple ways in which the black race can succeed. And I think that's still very much the case, right? So, you know, W. E. B. Du Bois is very much like, we should be going to college. We should be getting these advanced degrees. Like we can have these like high power jobs, et cetera, and be in government, but Booker T. Washington is like, our people down here, don't even have running water, right? We should be focused on trying to get like basic level of education, jobs that provide us, like, a source of income that's steady, et cetera. So my point is, you know, reasonable people can disagree to what the solution is. And, again, I think there's multiple approaches and so I think if we can, you know, not just go one route, right? It can't always be about only the talented tenth, but kind of like also bring up a pathway where in Booker T. Washington space, right? That's why we'll have all the like, black agricultural people. Tuskegee is, like, the best university for, like, mechanical engineering and industrial engineering. And that's all like thematically with Booker T. Washington. So there's room for both. We just have a habit of focusing on one. Ali went there and went into a total black history tangent.  [00:37:38] Dan Runcie: We could do a whole episode on that. But I'm glad you brought that up 'cause I do think that analogy and just, it ties so much of this together and ultimately the purpose of the fund and what you're trying to do. When I think about the nuance of all these conversations and the comprehensiveness of it what people need to hear so thank you for that. [00:37:56] Megan Holston Alexander: Fun fact. I'm actually a sociologist by trade. It was my undergrad. My undergrad degree, I got a Master's in it. I went to get a PhD, dropped out 'cause I hated it, moved to California, and got into tech and my dog is actually named after W. E. B. Du Bois. So fun fact for the people out there. [00:38:14] Dan Runcie: Still fresh, I mean for some of that, you know, I'm sure the sociology degree may have been, you know, some time ago, but still fresh. You still got it.  [00:38:21] Megan Holston Alexander: It's good stuff. I love social interaction and studying how people engage with each other. So it's my secret passion. I'm a sociology capitalist, I guess so.  [00:38:32] Dan Runcie: Of course, no, I think that there's some term there. But shifting gears a bit though, this is also somewhat on a sociology perspective, especially among VCs, the concept of where to live and where people are investing in has just been a bigger discussion ever since the pandemic had started and you are someone that lived in the Bay, you've recently moved to Alabama. And it'll be great to hear two parts. One, not just why you made the move, but also what is your take right now on the Bay Area, on San Francisco, because it is such a polarizing discussion point, especially from whether it was even people I talked to when I was at the summit or in so many conversations, for me as someone that still lives here. [00:39:15] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. So it's polarizing for a lot of people, but my feeling is clear and I've always felt that, like, talent is truly, truly all over. So I moved to Alabama because, you know, I got two little babies and, you know, my parents are getting older, and I wanted to be able to have my kids spend time with them and to go to Mimi's house, and Mimi to be able to come to their school stuff. And so, you know, the pandemic really allowed us the opportunity to do that because as you know, Andreessen Horowitz moved to the cloud. Prior to the pandemic, we were very much a, you know, in office culture as most firms were. But you know, much to the credit of our leadership, they saw how much flexibility people had while still being productive and wanted to be sure that, you know, people were able to maintain that. So I'm really grateful for it. But, you know, my stance has been the same. I've always felt like people, smart people come from everywhere and they can be everywhere. I used to get really offended, actually. So I went to an HBCU undergrad. I went to Clark Atlanta, but ultimately got an MBA at Stanford. And somehow after I went to Stanford, everybody starts, like, picking up the phone for you, right? And then they'll, like, respond to your emails when they, you know, see a certain thing there. But people are like, oh, I see you went to Stanford. Like, you must be smart. And I'm like, I was smart before I went to Stanford. I was smart in Alabama, you know what I mean? And so I've always conceptually believe that, you know, yes, people get these extra markers, but that doesn't necessarily determine, like, I didn't go to Stanford and get smart. I didn't go to Stanford and get some magical thing that makes me, you know, smarter than everybody else. And so I've just always been a believer in, you know, talent being everywhere. As far as like the Bay, in particular, I do think, you know, something special happens when you can kind of create some serendipity and put people in the same place. It's not that like, oh, you know, everybody was just born there. They're very smart. It's like, no, like, people were actively coming there to join companies, et cetera. So you did get this great critical mass of people living in one place, especially when offices were in office culture. But now kind of that disbursement has happened and I think it just shows people that like, yeah, people who are interested in tech and building things. Also, they desire to live outside of the Bay Area for whatever reason, whether it's family or friends or I want to live near Warm Beach. Whatever the case is, I just think, and again, have always believed that you can live anywhere and be smart and productive and happy. [00:41:38] Dan Runcie: And I think a lot of this was inevitable. We knew that as technology got better and better, the power of conglomeration, especially from a physical location perspective, was only going to lessen. I don't think it necessarily goes down to zero. There, of course, is benefit and why people live in particular places, but I do think that what we saw the past 15 years up until maybe the past two years was at least like the last wave. And you saw it before, whether it was with, you know, the auto industry or the Midwest of all these other places. Like, we've seen this happen time and time again. But what's different now is that things are so fragmented and it makes me think a lot of things we see in music as well. We saw so many areas that were just such culture beds for where the new hot sound was coming from, where the hottest music was. And I think we still see a lot of that. But we're starting to see even that spread out of it too. So this is happening across the board.  [00:42:31] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. I agree. And, you know, I think as long as companies support their employees' needs in whatever it is to be productive, I think we'll get to the right answer. So for example, our firm allows you, if you want to go to the office, you can. There's, like, no office that exists, so, like, you can't get interaction if you desire it. But not requiring it allows both types of people to be happy. And quite frankly, like, most people don't even know I live in Alabama. Like, I'll be on the phone with somebody from work and I'll like, no, I'm in Alabama. And they're like, oh, how long you visiting for? And I'm like, no, I live here. And like, everybody's eyes bug out and they're like, what? You can be equally as productive and no one have no, you know, no idea where you are. [00:43:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think that, and it's interesting, I've heard, you know, from some founders that are trying to go back in the office, some founders that are, you know, doing things remotely a hundred percent. And part of it is all that works for you, but the fact is we have options now and that's basically it. [00:43:30] Megan Holston Alexander: And I appreciate, again, the flexibility of so many companies to, like, actively buck against what the normal used to be, because I think it would've been really easy or conceptually easy to say, like, we're going back into the office. Like, that's what it is, and, you know, that's the end. But for all the companies that are like, hey, the world is changing, let me adapt. I and I know so many other people are really grateful for that. And me as a new mom, the flexibility it's given me is just huge.  [00:44:00] Dan Runcie: Right. And to tie it all in too, it just allows the greatness and the genius to come from so many other areas that aren't filtered by all of the other things that let people pick from the pools of talent that existed before. [00:44:13] Megan Holston Alexander: Agreed. The CLF team, at this point, I don't think anybody's in the Bay. [00:44:17] Dan Runcie: Makes sense.  [00:44:18] Megan Holston Alexander: I knew we've got New York and Miami and LA. Okay, wait, no, we do have one person in the Bay. But the fact is that this team, CLF as it is now, could not have existed if we could only be in Menlo Park.  [00:44:31] Dan Runcie: Right, right. No, that's a good point. That's a good point. All right. Well, Megan, this is great. Covered a bunch. We got a deeper look behind the fund. Everything that goes behind the work you're doing. [00:44:41] Megan Holston Alexander: Wait, we're not done, are we?  [00:44:43] Dan Runcie: We're getting to the tail end. We're going to the tail end. Oh, you got more?  [00:44:46] Megan Holston Alexander: You couldn't convince me that that wasn't only 20 minutes. [00:44:50] Dan Runcie: No, we definitely, we definitely had some good deep dives in here. This was good. But no, before we let you go though, what's one big thing that you're excited for 2023?  [00:44:59] Megan Holston Alexander: One thing I'm excited for 2023 for the fund, I am really excited to continue to, like, bring people together. In the last two and a half years, we haven't been able to do that, but CLF as a fund and as a network really relies on putting interesting people in a room together so magic can happen. And you probably heard me saying it's all around like the summit a few weeks ago. Like, my favorite part of my job is when, like, I know somebody and I know somebody else and I see them and I'm like, ooh, they need to talk. And I'll bring them together and I'll say, like, I don't know what's going to happen here, but y'all need to talk and whatever happens, give me my credit. And then I walk off. And then there's like all this like zhooshing and this magic that happens. I love those moments. So hopefully I can get to create more of those in 2023 with the awesome team that we've built at CLF. [00:45:50] Dan Runcie: Well, we'll definitely be looking out for that for sure. Megan, thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for coming on.  [00:45:56] Megan Holston Alexander: You as well. Thank you. I appreciate it. You're doing something very amazing with Trapital, and I mean, I just feel honored that you wouldn't let me be on your platform.  [00:46:04] Dan Runcie: Of course, these are the conversations you want to have. Thank you. Appreciate that.  [00:46:08] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 10 Nov 2022 08:00:00 -0000 How a16z’s Cultural Leadership Fund Is Putting More Black Dollars in Tech full Dan Runcie Megan Holston-Alexander is a partner at Andreessen Horowitz Cultural Leadership Fund. It’s the first VC fund that raised money exclusively from Black leaders — from entertainment to sports to business. The fund co-invests with a16z’s other funds and has raised more than $60 million across its three funds to date. The overarching purpose of CLF is to create generational wealth opportunities for Black communities. It’s a two-pronged approach. The first is getting Black dollars directly on the cap tables of high-potential startup companies. And the second is creating a pipeline for more Black talent at early-stage companies.  Megan joined me on the show on the heels of hosting the first-ever Cultural Leadership Summit and announcing CLF III before then. Here’s everything we covered during our conversation: [2:39] Takeaways from the Cultural Leadership Summit [5:19] Building despite economic uncertainties  [7:36] High-worth individuals also affected by macro economy  [9:05] How has the Cultural Leadership Fund evolved? [14:54] Difference between entertainment and executive LP’s [17:16] Web3’s knowledge imbalance   [19:16] Megan’s interest in DAO’s [20:58] Will CLF’s investment model change? [22:42] How CLF used relationships and trust-building to scale its operation  [28:35] Megan’s vetting process with LP’s [36:02] How VC industry at-large can create more opportunities for black founders and talent  [39:15] Has the Bay Area lost its monopoly on tech?  [44:59] What CLF is focusing on in 2023 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Megan Holston-Alexander, @meghalexander   Download The Culture Report here: https://trapital.ck.page/a23b7a6a4a   Sponsors: MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Megan Holston Alexander: What we hadn't considered on the executive side is, while the athletes and our kind of entertainers can partner on different things or, like, help them go into new markets, when it came down to, like, core operations or how you should run on your board, or how to think about hiring X, Y, and Z, our black executives, like, hold that information, like, in the palm of their hands. These are people who've been, you know, operators for 20 or 30 years, and so they brought kind of an additional level of skill and kind of insight to bolster what our other LPs on the more kind of athlete or entertainment side were doing.   [00:00:40] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:01:01] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Megan Holston Alexander. She's a partner at Andreessen Horowitz, currently leading its Cultural Leadership Fund. And to date, this fund has raised over 60 million, invested in over 300 Andreessen Horowitz portfolio companies, and has brought over a hundred black leaders into this space. I'm talking to Megan right after the Cultural Leadership Fund hosted its first-ever in-person summit. It was a pleasure to attend that summit myself and meet so many of the people that are friends of the fund, LPs of the fund, and really make it what it is. So this conversation, we talked a little bit about what it was like bringing that event together, especially after the pandemic. We also talked about how events like that fit within the fund's overall strategy and how that strategy has evolved over the past few years. For a little bit of background, the LPs in the Cultural Leadership Fund are all black, and it is one of the first funds to have ever done that in the VC space, and specifically, to date, a lot of the investors had been athletes and entertainers, but Megan talked a little bit about how they've expanded to bring on more black executives, what that looks like, and how that ultimately helps support the goal of the fund even more. One of the fund's other goals is to increase the amount of black talent and interest in tech. So we talk about what some of the opportunities are, what some of the challenges are, and what the VC community can do to help improve this even more. Great conversation, so many insightful points that Megan shared. I enjoyed this conversation and I know you will too, especially if you are an investor or you're a founder yourself. Here's my chat with Megan.  [00:02:39] Dan Runcie: All right, today we have Megan Holston Alexander from Andreessen Horowitz Culture Leadership Fund, and first, I got to say congratulations on an amazing summit. It was a great event to be a part of and to attend. How does it feel for you now being on the heels of that and just seeing the impact of everything?  [00:02:57] Megan Holston Alexander: Yeah, so thank you so much for coming. It means so much that people would be interested enough and engaged enough to spend time with us away from their, you know, everyday grind. But we're really pleased with how it turned out. We were motivated because so many of our LPs had said to us, we want to get together, we want to meet each other, we want to meet the founders, we want to meet the investment team. So as an LP and kind of partner summit, I think it had the intended effect and it seemed like people really enjoyed their time, but also learned a ton. So I could not be happier. I will say I was telling myself that after it was over, I was going to have so much time to, like, get so much other stuff done, but, like, it just never, it never stopped. So, we were really proud of what we were able to put on. [00:03:38] Dan Runcie: 'Cause I'm sure an event like that makes you think about what else you could do, right? I'm sure you had a bunch of people buzzing with ideas on what other in-person events or what other things could look like, too.  [00:03:48] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. And that's always the hope, right? We bring people into a room together in hopes that, like, we can help some serendipity happen. So many people in our network work on similar things or adjacent things or things that would have a really nice kind of partnership together. And so anytime we get to make those introductions, our hope is that people will be buzzing after, and have ideas for events and programs and partnerships. So we'll see what comes out of it.  [00:04:12] Dan Runcie: And I imagine that a lot of this probably had been in the plans for a while. It was just a matter of timing. So much of CLFs rise and growth had happened during the pandemic as well. And it was just a matter of, okay, when can you bring people together safely to make something like this happen?  [00:04:28] Megan Holston Alexander: Yeah. Yeah. And when I say it was three years in the making. I am not kidding, because we were planning actually to host the first summit in 2020. So we were in process of like, you know, picking out venues and cities and where we wanted to be. And then, like, so many people when the pandemic hit that spring, it just kind of cleared everybody's calendars. And so it's nice to know that 2 and a half years after the original that the motive was still the same and the demand for what we were building was still the same that we got to put it on, I think, even better than we could have hoped in 2020. [00:05:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I agree. And then looking at, now, you, of course, get to have it on the tail end of your announcement for fund three. You've now raised over $60 million for this fund. What was it like raising in this climate though, just given where things are with the market and how things have been so far in 2022?  [00:05:19] Megan Holston Alexander: Yeah, totally. Totally. So when it comes to like the market environment, you just never know what's going to happen and unintentionally, you know, I actually got to raise ahead of kind of the market changing earlier in the spring. And that was actually because I was expecting and planning to be a new mom. And the firm was really supportive of that. And they said, okay, kind of up to you. Do you want to do it before mat leaves? Do you want to wait until the fall when you come back? And me being like, I don't want to think about this while I'm trying to raise a baby. I was like, Let's knock it out early. So lucky enough, you know, I was able to close that out before people really started tightening their belts. But, you know, as a firm, we really believe that, you know, no matter what the economy looks like, what the macro, you know, face of the world looks like, builders are always building. And even more so, during times when they can be home and spend time thinking about the problems that they want to solve. And so our hope is that, you know, even in moments like that, we can still really rely on founders to keep, you know, pushing great, great companies out.  [00:06:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I like to think of these moments as well as when you do start to filter out some of the companies or ideas that maybe were a bit more fleeting, and you can focus on the real things happening, you look at the last economic downturn that we had, and all of the companies that came from that timeframe, too. So I feel like the call to action for so many fund managers like yourself, you mentioned the LPs or even to others is, like you just said, people are still building, and if anything, it's the real companies that are going to come out of this timeframe. [00:06:46] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. And then a piece that I would add onto that is in these moments, while we know that like great companies will be built, we don't truly know what they are because people do build for the time and you don't know what kind of instances will be, like, permanent behavior changes or what things are like, just for now, it seems like it's a, you know, a really good idea, but in six months people won't behave the same way. And so the hope is that you just always try to lean in the things that you think will have kind of staying power. But you just try to do risk reduction.  [00:07:15] Dan Runcie: Right, Right. And I assume, too, from a fundraising perspective with you and this fund specifically, because a lot of the LPs are high net worth individuals, some of their willingness to invest in funds hasn't necessarily changed as much as some of the more institutional investing in things that we've seen in the past year or so. [00:07:36] Megan Holston Alexander: Yeah. So actually I might argue the opposite. So when you're dealing with individuals, right, in their personal wealth and people who are really new to venture, right? That's a really, really scary moment because venture is a long-term play, right? It's not like you put your money in and then two or three weeks later, you can be like, Hey, Megan, where are my dollars? And so making a long-term commitment like that during a period of economic uncertainty is actually more difficult for an individual than it would be for an institution because one, it's not any particular individual's capital, but also institutions have much kind of more thorough game plans, right? They know what percentage they're putting into venture versus private equity versus, you know, bonds or whatever the case may be. So they're kind of more consistent and they understand that the market kind of goes up and down and that there will be moments like this, and it's actually a little bit more difficult when it comes to individuals to kind of get them over that hump. [00:08:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's fair. Because I do think that even in some conversations I've had with folks, things like the price of Bitcoin or the price of Ethereum having a pretty impactful influence on what their net worth is and their own willingness to invest in particular things.  [00:08:46] Megan Holston Alexander: For sure.  [00:08:47] Dan Runcie: And for you with this fund, specifically, now fund three, but the fund itself has been around for a few years now. Do you feel like the vision for the fund has evolved at all in that time? I mean, I feel like the core mission is the same, but have any of the ways that you've either talked or pitched the fund evolved in that timeframe?  [00:09:05] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. So I think you're right. We've kept our two kind of core missions the same, but what we do understand now is there are a number of different ways to execute on it. So if you will bear with me, I'm happy to share kind of two, you know, how that looks on both missions. So on the first mission of connecting the world's greatest cultural leaders to the best new technology companies. You know, historically we set, you know, athletes and entertainers and musicians, people who, from, you know, a large scale of consumerism have contributed to cultural change. But over time we've realized black executives also have like a really, really huge impact on this space. So people who are in leadership roles at Fortune 100 companies, or even at startup companies, they can have a huge impact on culture and consumer behavior more generally. And so we wanted to be sure that we really leaned into bringing in more black executives into the fund than we ever had before. And that has proven to be really helpful for the firm because they end up being, you know, equally if not more useful to the portfolio than the musicians and the singers, and the actors, et cetera. And so we have really enjoyed kind of expanding and involving that side of the network. And then on the second side of getting more young African Americans in tech, you know, fo fund one, we committed all of our management fees and carried to, like, one set of organizations. We picked them in the beginning and wanted to support them through the life of the fund. But what we realized by fund two was like, well, that doesn't really give us an opportunity to invest in new non-profits that are kind of on the cutting edge of technology, right? As things are growing and changing, we want folks who are being innovative on the non-profit side as well. And so what we did for fund two and now for fund three is we opened up kind of the spectrum of what we would support from a non-profit perspective to kind of match where we thought the technology world was going. So for fund one, you see a supporting kind of big well-known organizations that have proven over time if they are directly putting black folks into the pipeline for technology. But now we're saying like, okay, how do we add to this? Well, Web 3.0 is a huge thing, not only as a space for investment for the firm, but also generally of wanting to be sure that black folks don't get left behind in this Web 3.0 revolution. So we support organizations like crypto tutors that is meant to do just that, and that's not something we would've had insight into in that first fund. Gaming is also a new, huge area in technology. It is now, I think, you know, people play games more than they watch TV based on current research. And so how do we ensure that black folks are being supported in the gaming industry? So now we support black and gaming. We support the Black Collegiate Gaming Association. So just ensuring that our philanthropic efforts can support and are aligned with what we're doing as a firm and where technology is going overall.  [00:11:51] Dan Runcie: I actually want to talk about each of those two things separately. Let me go back to the first one.  [00:11:55] Megan Holston Alexander: Let's do it.  [00:11:56] Dan Runcie: I think it was really interesting what you said about athletes and that sector around sports in general, if I heard you correctly, them being but not even more influential or helpful for the fund overall, but maybe relative to some of the other folks, whether it's your LP such as your musicians or entertainers. Did I catch that right?  [00:12:16] Megan Holston Alexander: If I'm hearing what you're saying, you're saying that I said that the athletes are not as useful? [00:12:20] Dan Runcie: Oh, the other way around. Like, more useful than, like, some of the others that work with the fund? [00:12:24] Megan Holston Alexander: Well, I was saying, from the executive side, did I say athletes and not executives? [00:12:28] Dan Runcie: I think it was athletes. [00:12:29] Megan Holston Alexander: Maybe I misspoke. But what I was essentially trying to say is from a cultural leadership perspective, historically, it has very much been athletes and entertainers and we wanted to involve, we wanted to evolve our kind of mission overall to include more black executives. [00:12:45] Dan Runcie: That was helpful. Yeah, 'cause I was curious to tap into more about like, why that is and how that's impacted the fund so far.  [00:12:52] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. Because I feel like, everybody thinks that when you bring on like just a celebrity, everything skyrockets, right? That it's just like, ooh, if you put this name on there, things just grow. And that's not always necessarily the case. We've, you know, really supported our companies in being thoughtful and strategic around the ways in which you use a celebrity. And we've also been, you know, in deep conversations with our kind of LP network and our network at large about wanting to be more than like a disengaged kind of passive investor. And so they love partnering with the portfolio companies, et cetera. But what we hadn't considered on the executive side is, while the athletes and our kind of entertainers can partner on different things or like help them go into new markets or help them with the launch of a new product, when it came down to like core operations or how you should run on your board, or how to think about hiring X, Y, and Z, like, our black executives, like hold that information like in the palm of their hands. These are people who've been, you know, operators for 20 or 30 years, and so they brought kind of an additional level of skill and kind of insight to bolster what our other LPs on the more kind of athlete or entertainment side were doing. So now we have this really robust group of black cultural leaders who can help in a number of different areas. [00:14:07] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Yeah, I mean, we see the influence, we see how influential they are in all of these sectors, and if you're thinking about just like how your fund is structured, I know that you do have different folks on the team focused in sports, focused in entertainment more broadly, and I feel like eventually having, you know, whether it's even more of those or just being able find the best ways to lock in on talent, because I think we're seeing this more and more. I think a lot about like, let's say like 10-plus years ago when we saw the era of a lot of artists being named as creative directors for particular companies. And some of those turned into, you know, really flourishing partnerships, and some of them necessarily didn't. But now, and I feel like your fund was timing this. You captured this moment where we're seeing more than that.  [00:14:54] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep, absolutely. And it's not just because you know, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And it's not just because, and not only because, you know, athletes and kind of other entertainment folks want to be more engaged, but quite frankly startups are requiring it. They don't want you to just let your name on something and then you disappear and like, you know, take the money and run or whatever the case may be. And so what we're trying to do is really build up to kind of core groups of people who are interested in each other and want to work together. And so there should be an equal expectation when we bring our LPs in and on our startup side that the startups want to work with these LPs and they've been thoughtful about how they want to engage with them, right? So if you want a particular person, why, right? Why is this person the best fit for your company? And so we really challenge our companies on that, where it's not just like, you want to get the biggest name, but the person who will actually be most influential for the product that you're building. And on our LP side, we say like, okay, what is it about this company that makes you most interested that you want to bring to the table? So it really is about working together. We are trying very hard not to make it where it's just like, kind of one-off, really transactional doesn't make a lot of sense 'cause those tend to be the things that don't work out. We try to be thoughtful on all fronts.  [00:16:11] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. 'Cause it's like, otherwise, then it would just be like an Instagram ad or something like that, being like, oh, hey, go sponsor this product. And like, that's not what this is about.  [00:16:21] Megan Holston Alexander: And it doesn't make sense. Like, make it make sense. That's the most important thing for us because those are what can be fruitful. And then say it's something that, everything doesn't always work out, but if you went into it with the right intentions and everybody did their best, like, that's all you can hope for. And then those people usually want to work together again, even if it didn't work out. So we really do take this long view on relationships, not just as a firm, but as a fund and the way in which we interact with people and hope that they'll interact with each other.  [00:16:47] Dan Runcie: Right. And then at the second piece of what you were talking about, you talked about investing in companies that are ultimately helping to either further access or knowledge. Web 3.0 was an example and wanting to make sure that black talent doesn't get left behind in this space or in other spaces that may emerge. Where do you feel like things are right now? Do you feel like folks are on board? Do you feel like there's still a huge opportunity specifically with when it comes to Web 3.0 and black talent?  [00:17:16] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. I think until we get to a place where we feel like we have like, peer across the board equity, there's always work to be done. And being like an HBCU grad being from, you know, born and raised in Alabama, I have a very core sense of like what inequity looks like and how, what are the ways in which we can try to approach solutions to that problem. And so I think I'm lucky enough to have you know, that, sort of background where I can bring an interesting perspective into how we solve those problems. But I am finding that Web 3.0 overall has a lot of opportunity. One, because, like, nobody's an expert, right? Nobody's been doing Web 3.0 for 30 years. It is relatively new, right? There's people who've been doing it for the last 10 ish years, and there are a few people who are just really hardcore, but there is so many of our Web 3.0 companies, because there is just like a lack of, expertise in the space, they're just excited to get people who are interested and passionate about Web 3.0, right? So you kind of get to jump over this need for a long period of time having worked in X, Y, and Z or Web 3.0 in this case where you get to just work off of passion and start building the product. So that's one of the things I love about Web 3.0. The hard part is that there's a knowledge imbalance, right? It takes a lot of reading. It takes a lot of listening to podcasts and going through the a16z canon that a lot of people just don't have, right? The information is there, but everybody doesn't have time to read hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages on Web 3.0. And so the kind of that asynchronous ability to get information, I think, is where we have to fill in the gap. What is the answer to that? I'm not completely sure, but organizations like crypto tutors that I mentioned earlier, are making content easy, accessible, fun, really big on entertainment. And so while I think the opportunities are there for the roles, I do think we need to fill in the knowledge gap in terms of who gets the knowledge. [00:19:09] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And for you specifically, which areas of Web 3.0 are exciting you the most as an investor?  [00:19:16] Megan Holston Alexander: Whoa, well, you know, with CLF being a co-investment vehicle inside of the fund, I feel like I get lucky enough where I get to see all the cool stuff, but I don't have to make the strenuous, anxiety-ridden decisions about, you know, which ones to pick. I just get the benefit of spending time with them all after the fact. And so for me, I am most excited about and I'll just say the one piece that I've been looking into a lot lately is like, DAOs. I love this concept of like governance and people getting to vote on what they do with capital and making decisions of that, like, things to buy and things to sell. I think the way in which communities are being built around kind of DAOs and that type of governance is really interesting.  [00:20:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. I think some of these conversations, whether it's DAOs buying sports teams or Dows trying to get involved with different things, we'll see. I think, like anything, we're in the early days and some of these things will come to fruition but there's definitely something there. Just looking at how decentralized so many things are becoming then I think a lot of those things do need to.  [00:20:20] Megan Holston Alexander: Agreed and I think there's pros and cons of everything, and I think that's one of the things that, you know, gets missed in the hype cycle. There are things that will be really great about web 3.0 and there will be things that don't work out in the way that we hope, but in the end, we hope we shake out with the best kind of the pack.  [00:20:38] Dan Runcie: Right. And then you mentioned it earlier about just the way that CLF invests and you co-invest. So you do get to see all the things that come through and you're not necessarily picking or, you know, making them the investments yourself. But do you think that's something that may change with either the vision or the evolution of the fund itself, where you would be making those investments?  [00:20:58] Megan Holston Alexander: You know, we, at the firm, we never say never. We don't know what the future holds, but I think right now, the way that we've structured it, you know, we've got two really core goals at CLF, and the first is like getting black dollars onto the cap tables in Andreessen Horowitz companies and the more that I can do that, whether it's through co-investing or otherwise, I think that the structure that we have right now is one that works and that I'm I'm really pleased with. And then in that second mission or actually still the first mission, but the second way that we execute on it, right, so CLF has a fund and dollars out of that fund go into kind of the deals across a number of the funds inside of the firm. Not all of them, but most of them. But then the second thing that I get to do and spend a lot of time on, because I don't have to do, you know, a ton of that behind the scenes like diligence work, et cetera, is get additional strategic rounds for our portfolio companies. So not only is our LP base as a whole represented on the cap table, but anytime that there is a really thoughtful or smart partnership or somebody wants to add an additional strategic capital, we now can give even more black people on the cap table. And so I really enjoy spending my time doing that and I want to keep at it, but the firms, we never say never to stuff. Who knows? If it ever makes sense, we'll see.  [00:22:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And then I think too, you mentioned this a few times just in terms of how the firm is structured in terms of building and investing in relationships. And I think this is something that I know you've talked about in other interviews, something that rings true with a16z overall. Can you talk a little bit about the way that you have the divisions or the way that you have the different verticals for, whether it's entertainment or sports and some of the events that you attend as well, and how that helps the overall mission?  [00:22:42] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. So for CLF, you know, historically when probably two years ago when it was just me and Chris the two of us, we did everything right and we realized that if we really wanted CLF to scale and to grow and to really have an impact on the communities and generational wealth, we needed to scale what we were doing. We need to get more cultural leaders involved. We needed to be able to make more kind of partnership introductions, et cetera. And so the way that, you know, made sense was, okay, we've got these cultural leaders. How do we bring together the best at what they do in order to help manage these networks? So we brought in folks like Derek who have been on the management and agency side for a number of years to manage the entertainment vertical, right? So when you have one thing to focus on and it's only entertainers, you can make much more kind of clear and thoughtful decisions around who to introduce to whom or who to bring into this company, or when a portfolio company says, I need this type of person, you can make a quicker decision. We brought in Deb on the athlete side. She was a manager at Rock Nation Sports for a number of years, so she really just has the depth of knowledge. And not only that, they both have this really interesting knowledge just about who players are, but how we can structure deals with them, right? This is what they're used to, and now we're bringing in this tech side, how do we make those deal structures match, or how do we make it more, you know, favorable to everybody involved? And so they brought another level of rigor to the deals and the strategic rounds that we were putting together that we needed a lot. And then both Julie and I work on the executive side, which I said is burgeoning. And so we really try to specialize. One as a firm, right? We've got a crypto fund and a bio fund, and people who are specialized. We do the same thing inside of CLF. We try to have people focus on a swim lane. And it's proven to be successful. So far, we're really pleased with that decision.  [00:24:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think it's effective and I think the names that you've been able to have as LPs in each of the rounds speaks to that too. And at the end of the day, especially in these industries, of course, I know relationships drive everything, but I think it's more so in these industries because especially with some of these high net worth individuals in entertainment, there's so many people from coming out of the woodwork who are trying to swindle them out of stuff or trying to propose them the most horrible deals and investment opportunities. So I think that's where the value add is here, as opposed to, or even more so than someone else who, you know, isn't in these fields. So they're not necessarily getting as much of the crap, if you will, from the proposals. So being able to sift through the good ones. [00:25:12] Megan Holston Alexander: I think you brought up a really good point. And I think that point is trust, right? So when you have people coming out of the woodwork, like you said, with investment opportunities, I got a good investment opportunity for you. But that person has no real background to be able to speak to like kind of whatever that item is or whatever that company is. We try to really mitigate the risk for our LPs and, and kind of partners that we bring into rounds for CLF, like, we never bring deals to people that we haven't invested in ourselves, right? We feel like how can we tell you like, you should invest in this, but like we didn't do it. And so people know that anytime we bring something to them, it is fully invested through Andreessen Horowitz, like, process, deal team, GP, et cetera. And so we try to, you know, really eliminate risk for them. And obviously, we always have them, you know, do your own research. Here is the information you make the decision for yourself. But we just pride ourselves on building trust with people because if we mishandle people and we swindle people, like that gets around and then that doesn't benefit us, right? If it goes around like, oh, those. sneakers over there, a16z are doing that. But we feel like we have really put forth a concerted effort that people know that they can trust us and they share with their friends that they can trust us. And that really is I think how we try to maintain and engage with our network. And so far, you know, that network has been able to grow and we always say, you know, we're not going to sacrifice a relationship for a quick buck that's just not our style. That's not what we do. I hope that that is kind of what's making the rounds. But so far it feels like people really have built a lot of trust in us and we don't take that lightly. [00:26:53] Dan Runcie: And I do think that information and understanding of these things has just gotten better in decades overall. And couple that with the fact that this is venture capital. Of course, it's a risk. Most of the companies that we're investing in probably aren't going to take off, but the ones that do are going to hit. And you're doing it with a firm that has a track record in this. So I feel like there's so much transparency.  [00:27:16] Megan Holston Alexander: Well, I don't think I'm allowed to agree with that, so I'm just going to say okay. [00:27:20] Dan Runcie: Fair enough. Fair enough. And I think the difference there though is that I think about so many of these athletes, whether it's you get pitched on like opening restaurants with their name and all these other things that you know are just dated things. Of course, those things can still work. We've seen them be effective. But we've come a long way.  [00:27:39] Megan Holston Alexander: And then one of the other things is, you know, we tell people, you know, that invest in our fund to please consider us a resource when things like that come up, right? We say we're a VC firm in your back pocket, right? So if something comes your way and you want us to, like you have questions about it, you know, obviously we can't tell you what to do, but we can help you figure out what are the right questions to ask when these opportunities come in front of you. And so that education piece that we do, I think is really valued by a lot of the folks who trust us with their capital. [00:28:10] Dan Runcie: And then with your LP specifically, is there anything that you're specifically looking for from a vetting process? Like, not necessarily talking about like commitment levels or anything like that, but more so things that you're looking for 'cause earlier we're talking about, of course, we've come a long way from the celebrity investors slapping their name on things. But I'm sure there are probably still some out there that may want to do that. And you're making sure that that's not who you're attracting.  [00:28:35] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. I'm trying to tell you all my secrets. You know, the most important thing for us is that we have LPs who want to engage. We want people who are willing to like, you know, hop on a call with us and share their interests or if, you know, you join the fund and you are entered in particular deals or we, you know, come across a company that would be a really great fit for you to talk to, maybe just have a 15-minute conversation with the CEO. There are people who love opportunities like that. So people who want to engage and want to learn and spend time with us and spend time with our LPs is who we try to really, really lean into because it's a symbiotic relationship, We want to support them. But at the end of the day, like our largest goal is to support our portfolio companies and whether it's the a16z team, whether it's our LPs, like it's all hands on deck. And so I love people who come in and have a genuine curiosity and they're excited about technology and innovation and they want to play a role in things that are being built. And so, we love those conversations and you can kind of really tell, like I've had people who you would never think, people who you would think would be super disengaged. Like, that person is interested in tech who are, have gone down like the Web 3.0 rabbit hole and they're like, ooh, and I'm going to do like a token that has this, and then I'm going to give it to my whole community back in Texas or whatever. Like, really is just a really, really thoughtful people. You don't have to be an expert. Like, that's not what we're looking for, but we just look, want people who want to be involved.  [00:30:04] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. That makes sense. Shifting gears a bit on the talent side of things. We talked about it a little bit about how important it is to the fund to be able to just help develop this space and obviously your fund's doing its part. We talked about some of the areas that you're looking to invest in, how you're looking to just elevate this space overall, what do you think the rest of the VC community and landscape needs to be able to do to ultimately get things to where it should be.  [00:30:31] Megan Holston Alexander: Sorry, when you say get things to where they should be, you mean in terms of like talent as an employee of companies? You mean talent in what way?  [00:30:40] Dan Runcie: So I'm talking about talent in terms of whether it's black founders who are leading companies or black talent that are just interested in the space that are either going on to get jobs in the space or to work for other established companies, overall investing and then just being able to grow and see more black talent in tech. [00:30:59] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. So I'll start by saying there's no one way to do it. I think there are a number of different approaches that people can take. But I usually divide it up at least of this industry into three things. One, funds can, or you know, firms can support black founders, right, by putting capital directly into their hands so that they can build their companies. Two, they can help more black talent get into early stage companies, right? So, employee 10, employee 15, employee 20, because we know that early employee equity can really change a life, right, when a company has a liquidity event, whether it's an IPO or a sale that now that person has capital to start a company or to angel invest in companies and kind of create some generational wealth for themselves. And then the third thing is getting more black dollars on cap tables, right? So ownership stakes, not just monetizing on a platform, right, for all of the amazing things that we're creating, but actually having its ownership in the platform to create generational wealth. And CLF focuses on those last two, but there are a lot of firms, again, focused on, you know, funding black founders. I think kind of focusing on those three core areas can really create economic, you know, extreme economic kind of opportunities for the black community. And so, you know, with CLF focusing on those last two, I think we've got a really special niche that we get to support in a number of ways, which I mentioned before. [00:32:26] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like the closer that, or at least the more people, whether it's in this generation or in, you know, people that are a little bit older that are still trying to do it, being able to just get more focus on building generational. And just the knowledge and the mindset of it. I think all those things help. I think we're seeing more podcasts, more shows, more content from black folks that are specifically focused on this, which is great. I think, you know, there's never too much of it. So personally I think that I would love to be able to see more dollars and more hiring that happens in these places too 'cause I think we saw, especially in the past couple years, there was so many press releases that came from particular companies, and I think I saw recently there was a big tech founder that just announced, you know, a $400 million fund to invest. [00:33:16] Megan Holston Alexander: 400 million. Yeah, yeah.  [00:33:17] Dan Runcie: But like, wanted to be able to actually see the results from those and being able to see the impact and being able to see people, you know, become their own Robert Smiths that can then, you know, pay for, you know, tuition for a future class. The more of those we see, and it's not just the one, you know, few names we already know would be great and I think those things will happen, but ultimately I think that's what so many of us want to see in this space.  [00:33:39] Megan Holston Alexander: And there's so much embedded in this conversation, right? And I'll go on a little bit of an aside because I think one, we have to understand that like when we think about the future and black equity and empowerment, some people still don't care. Like, there are a lot of people who just do not care. It's not their problem. They don't want to help solve it. And then you have people who kind of commit to things but have no follow-through. And that's what we saw a lot of over the last couple of years. Like, after the murder of George Floyd, all these companies were like, yes, we're going to give this, we're going to do this. And then the follow-through two and a half years later is just not there. And then you have the people who are really, really committed but don't understand the expanse of the black community and think of it as a small sliver, like, really high, like, accelerators that they would want to support who still go to like a very specific set of schools, right, the talented tenth of the black people and are willing to support that. But then there is this holistic perspective around, like, non-monolithic blackness and how do we encourage economic empowerment and growth across the community as a whole? And that's what I want to get to. When we think about HBCUs, there's over a hundred of them, right? And how do we support more of them as opposed to like the same ones that get, you know, a ton of shine. Mind you, when it comes to HBCUs, like, they don't work outside of the community, be like, we depend on each other and we rely on each other. So, you know, I want to get to a more comprehensive perspective on, like, what supporting black economic empowerment looks like from a long-term perspective. So I think we'll get there, but there's a long way to go.  [00:35:25] Dan Runcie: What you just said reminds me of, there was one of the tech companies that announced that they were going to have a black board member and that someone was going to take their seat away and they were going to make the opportunity for a black board member. And people were very curious, okay, who should it be? And to the point that you're making, who can we elevate to that point? Who could we provide an opportunity for? And I think they ended up choosing one of the most successful and high-profile black founders in this space. And while it is great to see that person in that role, that wasn't creating a necessarily a new opportunity in that same type of way, and it goes back to the talented tenth thing.  [00:36:02] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. We're here. And you know, I think you bring up a good point when, and now we're about to get into black history, but that's okay 'cause this is for the people. Conceptually, when you think about the talented tenth that's, you know, W. E. B. Du Bois and, like, his concept from a sociological perspective, and you think about who he was at tension with the most, Booker T. Washington and this concept of the Atlanta Compromise. Two very powerful black men, the founder of Tuskegee University versus, like, the first black man to get a PhD at Harvard. Conceptually thinking there are multiple ways in which the black race can succeed. And I think that's still very much the case, right? So, you know, W. E. B. Du Bois is very much like, we should be going to college. We should be getting these advanced degrees. Like we can have these like high power jobs, et cetera, and be in government, but Booker T. Washington is like, our people down here, don't even have running water, right? We should be focused on trying to get like basic level of education, jobs that provide us, like, a source of income that's steady, et cetera. So my point is, you know, reasonable people can disagree to what the solution is. And, again, I think there's multiple approaches and so I think if we can, you know, not just go one route, right? It can't always be about only the talented tenth, but kind of like also bring up a pathway where in Booker T. Washington space, right? That's why we'll have all the like, black agricultural people. Tuskegee is, like, the best university for, like, mechanical engineering and industrial engineering. And that's all like thematically with Booker T. Washington. So there's room for both. We just have a habit of focusing on one. Ali went there and went into a total black history tangent.  [00:37:38] Dan Runcie: We could do a whole episode on that. But I'm glad you brought that up 'cause I do think that analogy and just, it ties so much of this together and ultimately the purpose of the fund and what you're trying to do. When I think about the nuance of all these conversations and the comprehensiveness of it what people need to hear so thank you for that. [00:37:56] Megan Holston Alexander: Fun fact. I'm actually a sociologist by trade. It was my undergrad. My undergrad degree, I got a Master's in it. I went to get a PhD, dropped out 'cause I hated it, moved to California, and got into tech and my dog is actually named after W. E. B. Du Bois. So fun fact for the people out there. [00:38:14] Dan Runcie: Still fresh, I mean for some of that, you know, I'm sure the sociology degree may have been, you know, some time ago, but still fresh. You still got it.  [00:38:21] Megan Holston Alexander: It's good stuff. I love social interaction and studying how people engage with each other. So it's my secret passion. I'm a sociology capitalist, I guess so.  [00:38:32] Dan Runcie: Of course, no, I think that there's some term there. But shifting gears a bit though, this is also somewhat on a sociology perspective, especially among VCs, the concept of where to live and where people are investing in has just been a bigger discussion ever since the pandemic had started and you are someone that lived in the Bay, you've recently moved to Alabama. And it'll be great to hear two parts. One, not just why you made the move, but also what is your take right now on the Bay Area, on San Francisco, because it is such a polarizing discussion point, especially from whether it was even people I talked to when I was at the summit or in so many conversations, for me as someone that still lives here. [00:39:15] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. So it's polarizing for a lot of people, but my feeling is clear and I've always felt that, like, talent is truly, truly all over. So I moved to Alabama because, you know, I got two little babies and, you know, my parents are getting older, and I wanted to be able to have my kids spend time with them and to go to Mimi's house, and Mimi to be able to come to their school stuff. And so, you know, the pandemic really allowed us the opportunity to do that because as you know, Andreessen Horowitz moved to the cloud. Prior to the pandemic, we were very much a, you know, in office culture as most firms were. But you know, much to the credit of our leadership, they saw how much flexibility people had while still being productive and wanted to be sure that, you know, people were able to maintain that. So I'm really grateful for it. But, you know, my stance has been the same. I've always felt like people, smart people come from everywhere and they can be everywhere. I used to get really offended, actually. So I went to an HBCU undergrad. I went to Clark Atlanta, but ultimately got an MBA at Stanford. And somehow after I went to Stanford, everybody starts, like, picking up the phone for you, right? And then they'll, like, respond to your emails when they, you know, see a certain thing there. But people are like, oh, I see you went to Stanford. Like, you must be smart. And I'm like, I was smart before I went to Stanford. I was smart in Alabama, you know what I mean? And so I've always conceptually believe that, you know, yes, people get these extra markers, but that doesn't necessarily determine, like, I didn't go to Stanford and get smart. I didn't go to Stanford and get some magical thing that makes me, you know, smarter than everybody else. And so I've just always been a believer in, you know, talent being everywhere. As far as like the Bay, in particular, I do think, you know, something special happens when you can kind of create some serendipity and put people in the same place. It's not that like, oh, you know, everybody was just born there. They're very smart. It's like, no, like, people were actively coming there to join companies, et cetera. So you did get this great critical mass of people living in one place, especially when offices were in office culture. But now kind of that disbursement has happened and I think it just shows people that like, yeah, people who are interested in tech and building things. Also, they desire to live outside of the Bay Area for whatever reason, whether it's family or friends or I want to live near Warm Beach. Whatever the case is, I just think, and again, have always believed that you can live anywhere and be smart and productive and happy. [00:41:38] Dan Runcie: And I think a lot of this was inevitable. We knew that as technology got better and better, the power of conglomeration, especially from a physical location perspective, was only going to lessen. I don't think it necessarily goes down to zero. There, of course, is benefit and why people live in particular places, but I do think that what we saw the past 15 years up until maybe the past two years was at least like the last wave. And you saw it before, whether it was with, you know, the auto industry or the Midwest of all these other places. Like, we've seen this happen time and time again. But what's different now is that things are so fragmented and it makes me think a lot of things we see in music as well. We saw so many areas that were just such culture beds for where the new hot sound was coming from, where the hottest music was. And I think we still see a lot of that. But we're starting to see even that spread out of it too. So this is happening across the board.  [00:42:31] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. I agree. And, you know, I think as long as companies support their employees' needs in whatever it is to be productive, I think we'll get to the right answer. So for example, our firm allows you, if you want to go to the office, you can. There's, like, no office that exists, so, like, you can't get interaction if you desire it. But not requiring it allows both types of people to be happy. And quite frankly, like, most people don't even know I live in Alabama. Like, I'll be on the phone with somebody from work and I'll like, no, I'm in Alabama. And they're like, oh, how long you visiting for? And I'm like, no, I live here. And like, everybody's eyes bug out and they're like, what? You can be equally as productive and no one have no, you know, no idea where you are. [00:43:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think that, and it's interesting, I've heard, you know, from some founders that are trying to go back in the office, some founders that are, you know, doing things remotely a hundred percent. And part of it is all that works for you, but the fact is we have options now and that's basically it. [00:43:30] Megan Holston Alexander: And I appreciate, again, the flexibility of so many companies to, like, actively buck against what the normal used to be, because I think it would've been really easy or conceptually easy to say, like, we're going back into the office. Like, that's what it is, and, you know, that's the end. But for all the companies that are like, hey, the world is changing, let me adapt. I and I know so many other people are really grateful for that. And me as a new mom, the flexibility it's given me is just huge.  [00:44:00] Dan Runcie: Right. And to tie it all in too, it just allows the greatness and the genius to come from so many other areas that aren't filtered by all of the other things that let people pick from the pools of talent that existed before. [00:44:13] Megan Holston Alexander: Agreed. The CLF team, at this point, I don't think anybody's in the Bay. [00:44:17] Dan Runcie: Makes sense.  [00:44:18] Megan Holston Alexander: I knew we've got New York and Miami and LA. Okay, wait, no, we do have one person in the Bay. But the fact is that this team, CLF as it is now, could not have existed if we could only be in Menlo Park.  [00:44:31] Dan Runcie: Right, right. No, that's a good point. That's a good point. All right. Well, Megan, this is great. Covered a bunch. We got a deeper look behind the fund. Everything that goes behind the work you're doing. [00:44:41] Megan Holston Alexander: Wait, we're not done, are we?  [00:44:43] Dan Runcie: We're getting to the tail end. We're going to the tail end. Oh, you got more?  [00:44:46] Megan Holston Alexander: You couldn't convince me that that wasn't only 20 minutes. [00:44:50] Dan Runcie: No, we definitely, we definitely had some good deep dives in here. This was good. But no, before we let you go though, what's one big thing that you're excited for 2023?  [00:44:59] Megan Holston Alexander: One thing I'm excited for 2023 for the fund, I am really excited to continue to, like, bring people together. In the last two and a half years, we haven't been able to do that, but CLF as a fund and as a network really relies on putting interesting people in a room together so magic can happen. And you probably heard me saying it's all around like the summit a few weeks ago. Like, my favorite part of my job is when, like, I know somebody and I know somebody else and I see them and I'm like, ooh, they need to talk. And I'll bring them together and I'll say, like, I don't know what's going to happen here, but y'all need to talk and whatever happens, give me my credit. And then I walk off. And then there's like all this like zhooshing and this magic that happens. I love those moments. So hopefully I can get to create more of those in 2023 with the awesome team that we've built at CLF. [00:45:50] Dan Runcie: Well, we'll definitely be looking out for that for sure. Megan, thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for coming on.  [00:45:56] Megan Holston Alexander: You as well. Thank you. I appreciate it. You're doing something very amazing with Trapital, and I mean, I just feel honored that you wouldn't let me be on your platform.  [00:46:04] Dan Runcie: Of course, these are the conversations you want to have. Thank you. Appreciate that.  [00:46:08] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Megan Holston-Alexander is a partner at Andreessen Horowitz Cultural Leadership Fund. It’s the first VC fund that raised money exclusively from Black leaders — from entertainment to sports to business. The fund co-invests with a16z’s other funds and has raised more than $60 million across its three funds to date.


The overarching purpose of CLF is to create generational wealth opportunities for Black communities. It’s a two-pronged approach. The first is getting Black dollars directly on the cap tables of high-potential startup companies. And the second is creating a pipeline for more Black talent at early-stage companies. 


Megan joined me on the show on the heels of hosting the first-ever Cultural Leadership Summit and announcing CLF III before then. Here’s everything we covered during our conversation:


[2:39] Takeaways from the Cultural Leadership Summit

[5:19] Building despite economic uncertainties 

[7:36] High-worth individuals also affected by macro economy 

[9:05] How has the Cultural Leadership Fund evolved?

[14:54] Difference between entertainment and executive LP’s

[17:16] Web3’s knowledge imbalance  

[19:16] Megan’s interest in DAO’s

[20:58] Will CLF’s investment model change?

[22:42] How CLF used relationships and trust-building to scale its operation 

[28:35] Megan’s vetting process with LP’s

[36:02] How VC industry at-large can create more opportunities for black founders and talent 

[39:15] Has the Bay Area lost its monopoly on tech? 

[44:59] What CLF is focusing on in 2023


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Megan Holston-Alexander, @meghalexander

 

Download The Culture Report here: https://trapital.ck.page/a23b7a6a4a

 

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TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Megan Holston Alexander: What we hadn't considered on the executive side is, while the athletes and our kind of entertainers can partner on different things or, like, help them go into new markets, when it came down to, like, core operations or how you should run on your board, or how to think about hiring X, Y, and Z, our black executives, like, hold that information, like, in the palm of their hands. These are people who've been, you know, operators for 20 or 30 years, and so they brought kind of an additional level of skill and kind of insight to bolster what our other LPs on the more kind of athlete or entertainment side were doing.  

[00:00:40] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 

[00:01:01] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Megan Holston Alexander. She's a partner at Andreessen Horowitz, currently leading its Cultural Leadership Fund. And to date, this fund has raised over 60 million, invested in over 300 Andreessen Horowitz portfolio companies, and has brought over a hundred black leaders into this space. I'm talking to Megan right after the Cultural Leadership Fund hosted its first-ever in-person summit. It was a pleasure to attend that summit myself and meet so many of the people that are friends of the fund, LPs of the fund, and really make it what it is. So this conversation, we talked a little bit about what it was like bringing that event together, especially after the pandemic. We also talked about how events like that fit within the fund's overall strategy and how that strategy has evolved over the past few years. For a little bit of background, the LPs in the Cultural Leadership Fund are all black, and it is one of the first funds to have ever done that in the VC space, and specifically, to date, a lot of the investors had been athletes and entertainers, but Megan talked a little bit about how they've expanded to bring on more black executives, what that looks like, and how that ultimately helps support the goal of the fund even more. One of the fund's other goals is to increase the amount of black talent and interest in tech. So we talk about what some of the opportunities are, what some of the challenges are, and what the VC community can do to help improve this even more. Great conversation, so many insightful points that Megan shared. I enjoyed this conversation and I know you will too, especially if you are an investor or you're a founder yourself. Here's my chat with Megan. 

[00:02:39] Dan Runcie: All right, today we have Megan Holston Alexander from Andreessen Horowitz Culture Leadership Fund, and first, I got to say congratulations on an amazing summit. It was a great event to be a part of and to attend. How does it feel for you now being on the heels of that and just seeing the impact of everything? 

[00:02:57] Megan Holston Alexander: Yeah, so thank you so much for coming. It means so much that people would be interested enough and engaged enough to spend time with us away from their, you know, everyday grind. But we're really pleased with how it turned out. We were motivated because so many of our LPs had said to us, we want to get together, we want to meet each other, we want to meet the founders, we want to meet the investment team. So as an LP and kind of partner summit, I think it had the intended effect and it seemed like people really enjoyed their time, but also learned a ton. So I could not be happier. I will say I was telling myself that after it was over, I was going to have so much time to, like, get so much other stuff done, but, like, it just never, it never stopped. So, we were really proud of what we were able to put on.

[00:03:38] Dan Runcie: 'Cause I'm sure an event like that makes you think about what else you could do, right? I'm sure you had a bunch of people buzzing with ideas on what other in-person events or what other things could look like, too. 

[00:03:48] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. And that's always the hope, right? We bring people into a room together in hopes that, like, we can help some serendipity happen. So many people in our network work on similar things or adjacent things or things that would have a really nice kind of partnership together. And so anytime we get to make those introductions, our hope is that people will be buzzing after, and have ideas for events and programs and partnerships. So we'll see what comes out of it. 

[00:04:12] Dan Runcie: And I imagine that a lot of this probably had been in the plans for a while. It was just a matter of timing. So much of CLFs rise and growth had happened during the pandemic as well. And it was just a matter of, okay, when can you bring people together safely to make something like this happen? 

[00:04:28] Megan Holston Alexander: Yeah. Yeah. And when I say it was three years in the making. I am not kidding, because we were planning actually to host the first summit in 2020. So we were in process of like, you know, picking out venues and cities and where we wanted to be. And then, like, so many people when the pandemic hit that spring, it just kind of cleared everybody's calendars. And so it's nice to know that 2 and a half years after the original that the motive was still the same and the demand for what we were building was still the same that we got to put it on, I think, even better than we could have hoped in 2020.

[00:05:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I agree. And then looking at, now, you, of course, get to have it on the tail end of your announcement for fund three. You've now raised over $60 million for this fund. What was it like raising in this climate though, just given where things are with the market and how things have been so far in 2022? 

[00:05:19] Megan Holston Alexander: Yeah, totally. Totally. So when it comes to like the market environment, you just never know what's going to happen and unintentionally, you know, I actually got to raise ahead of kind of the market changing earlier in the spring. And that was actually because I was expecting and planning to be a new mom. And the firm was really supportive of that. And they said, okay, kind of up to you. Do you want to do it before mat leaves? Do you want to wait until the fall when you come back? And me being like, I don't want to think about this while I'm trying to raise a baby. I was like, Let's knock it out early. So lucky enough, you know, I was able to close that out before people really started tightening their belts. But, you know, as a firm, we really believe that, you know, no matter what the economy looks like, what the macro, you know, face of the world looks like, builders are always building. And even more so, during times when they can be home and spend time thinking about the problems that they want to solve. And so our hope is that, you know, even in moments like that, we can still really rely on founders to keep, you know, pushing great, great companies out. 

[00:06:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I like to think of these moments as well as when you do start to filter out some of the companies or ideas that maybe were a bit more fleeting, and you can focus on the real things happening, you look at the last economic downturn that we had, and all of the companies that came from that timeframe, too. So I feel like the call to action for so many fund managers like yourself, you mentioned the LPs or even to others is, like you just said, people are still building, and if anything, it's the real companies that are going to come out of this timeframe.

[00:06:46] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. And then a piece that I would add onto that is in these moments, while we know that like great companies will be built, we don't truly know what they are because people do build for the time and you don't know what kind of instances will be, like, permanent behavior changes or what things are like, just for now, it seems like it's a, you know, a really good idea, but in six months people won't behave the same way. And so the hope is that you just always try to lean in the things that you think will have kind of staying power. But you just try to do risk reduction. 

[00:07:15] Dan Runcie: Right, Right. And I assume, too, from a fundraising perspective with you and this fund specifically, because a lot of the LPs are high net worth individuals, some of their willingness to invest in funds hasn't necessarily changed as much as some of the more institutional investing in things that we've seen in the past year or so.

[00:07:36] Megan Holston Alexander: Yeah. So actually I might argue the opposite. So when you're dealing with individuals, right, in their personal wealth and people who are really new to venture, right? That's a really, really scary moment because venture is a long-term play, right? It's not like you put your money in and then two or three weeks later, you can be like, Hey, Megan, where are my dollars? And so making a long-term commitment like that during a period of economic uncertainty is actually more difficult for an individual than it would be for an institution because one, it's not any particular individual's capital, but also institutions have much kind of more thorough game plans, right? They know what percentage they're putting into venture versus private equity versus, you know, bonds or whatever the case may be. So they're kind of more consistent and they understand that the market kind of goes up and down and that there will be moments like this, and it's actually a little bit more difficult when it comes to individuals to kind of get them over that hump.

[00:08:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's fair. Because I do think that even in some conversations I've had with folks, things like the price of Bitcoin or the price of Ethereum having a pretty impactful influence on what their net worth is and their own willingness to invest in particular things. 

[00:08:46] Megan Holston Alexander: For sure. 

[00:08:47] Dan Runcie: And for you with this fund, specifically, now fund three, but the fund itself has been around for a few years now. Do you feel like the vision for the fund has evolved at all in that time? I mean, I feel like the core mission is the same, but have any of the ways that you've either talked or pitched the fund evolved in that timeframe? 

[00:09:05] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. So I think you're right. We've kept our two kind of core missions the same, but what we do understand now is there are a number of different ways to execute on it. So if you will bear with me, I'm happy to share kind of two, you know, how that looks on both missions. So on the first mission of connecting the world's greatest cultural leaders to the best new technology companies. You know, historically we set, you know, athletes and entertainers and musicians, people who, from, you know, a large scale of consumerism have contributed to cultural change. But over time we've realized black executives also have like a really, really huge impact on this space. So people who are in leadership roles at Fortune 100 companies, or even at startup companies, they can have a huge impact on culture and consumer behavior more generally. And so we wanted to be sure that we really leaned into bringing in more black executives into the fund than we ever had before. And that has proven to be really helpful for the firm because they end up being, you know, equally if not more useful to the portfolio than the musicians and the singers, and the actors, et cetera. And so we have really enjoyed kind of expanding and involving that side of the network. And then on the second side of getting more young African Americans in tech, you know, fo fund one, we committed all of our management fees and carried to, like, one set of organizations. We picked them in the beginning and wanted to support them through the life of the fund. But what we realized by fund two was like, well, that doesn't really give us an opportunity to invest in new non-profits that are kind of on the cutting edge of technology, right? As things are growing and changing, we want folks who are being innovative on the non-profit side as well. And so what we did for fund two and now for fund three is we opened up kind of the spectrum of what we would support from a non-profit perspective to kind of match where we thought the technology world was going. So for fund one, you see a supporting kind of big well-known organizations that have proven over time if they are directly putting black folks into the pipeline for technology. But now we're saying like, okay, how do we add to this? Well, Web 3.0 is a huge thing, not only as a space for investment for the firm, but also generally of wanting to be sure that black folks don't get left behind in this Web 3.0 revolution. So we support organizations like crypto tutors that is meant to do just that, and that's not something we would've had insight into in that first fund. Gaming is also a new, huge area in technology. It is now, I think, you know, people play games more than they watch TV based on current research. And so how do we ensure that black folks are being supported in the gaming industry? So now we support black and gaming. We support the Black Collegiate Gaming Association. So just ensuring that our philanthropic efforts can support and are aligned with what we're doing as a firm and where technology is going overall. 

[00:11:51] Dan Runcie: I actually want to talk about each of those two things separately. Let me go back to the first one. 

[00:11:55] Megan Holston Alexander: Let's do it. 

[00:11:56] Dan Runcie: I think it was really interesting what you said about athletes and that sector around sports in general, if I heard you correctly, them being but not even more influential or helpful for the fund overall, but maybe relative to some of the other folks, whether it's your LP such as your musicians or entertainers. Did I catch that right? 

[00:12:16] Megan Holston Alexander: If I'm hearing what you're saying, you're saying that I said that the athletes are not as useful?

[00:12:20] Dan Runcie: Oh, the other way around. Like, more useful than, like, some of the others that work with the fund?

[00:12:24] Megan Holston Alexander: Well, I was saying, from the executive side, did I say athletes and not executives?

[00:12:28] Dan Runcie: I think it was athletes.

[00:12:29] Megan Holston Alexander: Maybe I misspoke. But what I was essentially trying to say is from a cultural leadership perspective, historically, it has very much been athletes and entertainers and we wanted to involve, we wanted to evolve our kind of mission overall to include more black executives.

[00:12:45] Dan Runcie: That was helpful. Yeah, 'cause I was curious to tap into more about like, why that is and how that's impacted the fund so far. 

[00:12:52] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. Because I feel like, everybody thinks that when you bring on like just a celebrity, everything skyrockets, right? That it's just like, ooh, if you put this name on there, things just grow. And that's not always necessarily the case. We've, you know, really supported our companies in being thoughtful and strategic around the ways in which you use a celebrity. And we've also been, you know, in deep conversations with our kind of LP network and our network at large about wanting to be more than like a disengaged kind of passive investor. And so they love partnering with the portfolio companies, et cetera. But what we hadn't considered on the executive side is, while the athletes and our kind of entertainers can partner on different things or like help them go into new markets or help them with the launch of a new product, when it came down to like core operations or how you should run on your board, or how to think about hiring X, Y, and Z, like, our black executives, like hold that information like in the palm of their hands. These are people who've been, you know, operators for 20 or 30 years, and so they brought kind of an additional level of skill and kind of insight to bolster what our other LPs on the more kind of athlete or entertainment side were doing. So now we have this really robust group of black cultural leaders who can help in a number of different areas.

[00:14:07] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Yeah, I mean, we see the influence, we see how influential they are in all of these sectors, and if you're thinking about just like how your fund is structured, I know that you do have different folks on the team focused in sports, focused in entertainment more broadly, and I feel like eventually having, you know, whether it's even more of those or just being able find the best ways to lock in on talent, because I think we're seeing this more and more. I think a lot about like, let's say like 10-plus years ago when we saw the era of a lot of artists being named as creative directors for particular companies. And some of those turned into, you know, really flourishing partnerships, and some of them necessarily didn't. But now, and I feel like your fund was timing this. You captured this moment where we're seeing more than that. 

[00:14:54] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep, absolutely. And it's not just because you know, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And it's not just because, and not only because, you know, athletes and kind of other entertainment folks want to be more engaged, but quite frankly startups are requiring it. They don't want you to just let your name on something and then you disappear and like, you know, take the money and run or whatever the case may be. And so what we're trying to do is really build up to kind of core groups of people who are interested in each other and want to work together. And so there should be an equal expectation when we bring our LPs in and on our startup side that the startups want to work with these LPs and they've been thoughtful about how they want to engage with them, right? So if you want a particular person, why, right? Why is this person the best fit for your company? And so we really challenge our companies on that, where it's not just like, you want to get the biggest name, but the person who will actually be most influential for the product that you're building. And on our LP side, we say like, okay, what is it about this company that makes you most interested that you want to bring to the table? So it really is about working together. We are trying very hard not to make it where it's just like, kind of one-off, really transactional doesn't make a lot of sense 'cause those tend to be the things that don't work out. We try to be thoughtful on all fronts. 

[00:16:11] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. 'Cause it's like, otherwise, then it would just be like an Instagram ad or something like that, being like, oh, hey, go sponsor this product. And like, that's not what this is about. 

[00:16:21] Megan Holston Alexander: And it doesn't make sense. Like, make it make sense. That's the most important thing for us because those are what can be fruitful. And then say it's something that, everything doesn't always work out, but if you went into it with the right intentions and everybody did their best, like, that's all you can hope for. And then those people usually want to work together again, even if it didn't work out. So we really do take this long view on relationships, not just as a firm, but as a fund and the way in which we interact with people and hope that they'll interact with each other. 

[00:16:47] Dan Runcie: Right. And then at the second piece of what you were talking about, you talked about investing in companies that are ultimately helping to either further access or knowledge. Web 3.0 was an example and wanting to make sure that black talent doesn't get left behind in this space or in other spaces that may emerge. Where do you feel like things are right now? Do you feel like folks are on board? Do you feel like there's still a huge opportunity specifically with when it comes to Web 3.0 and black talent? 

[00:17:16] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. I think until we get to a place where we feel like we have like, peer across the board equity, there's always work to be done. And being like an HBCU grad being from, you know, born and raised in Alabama, I have a very core sense of like what inequity looks like and how, what are the ways in which we can try to approach solutions to that problem. And so I think I'm lucky enough to have you know, that, sort of background where I can bring an interesting perspective into how we solve those problems. But I am finding that Web 3.0 overall has a lot of opportunity. One, because, like, nobody's an expert, right? Nobody's been doing Web 3.0 for 30 years. It is relatively new, right? There's people who've been doing it for the last 10 ish years, and there are a few people who are just really hardcore, but there is so many of our Web 3.0 companies, because there is just like a lack of, expertise in the space, they're just excited to get people who are interested and passionate about Web 3.0, right? So you kind of get to jump over this need for a long period of time having worked in X, Y, and Z or Web 3.0 in this case where you get to just work off of passion and start building the product. So that's one of the things I love about Web 3.0. The hard part is that there's a knowledge imbalance, right? It takes a lot of reading. It takes a lot of listening to podcasts and going through the a16z canon that a lot of people just don't have, right? The information is there, but everybody doesn't have time to read hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages on Web 3.0. And so the kind of that asynchronous ability to get information, I think, is where we have to fill in the gap. What is the answer to that? I'm not completely sure, but organizations like crypto tutors that I mentioned earlier, are making content easy, accessible, fun, really big on entertainment. And so while I think the opportunities are there for the roles, I do think we need to fill in the knowledge gap in terms of who gets the knowledge.

[00:19:09] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And for you specifically, which areas of Web 3.0 are exciting you the most as an investor? 

[00:19:16] Megan Holston Alexander: Whoa, well, you know, with CLF being a co-investment vehicle inside of the fund, I feel like I get lucky enough where I get to see all the cool stuff, but I don't have to make the strenuous, anxiety-ridden decisions about, you know, which ones to pick. I just get the benefit of spending time with them all after the fact. And so for me, I am most excited about and I'll just say the one piece that I've been looking into a lot lately is like, DAOs. I love this concept of like governance and people getting to vote on what they do with capital and making decisions of that, like, things to buy and things to sell. I think the way in which communities are being built around kind of DAOs and that type of governance is really interesting. 

[00:20:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. I think some of these conversations, whether it's DAOs buying sports teams or Dows trying to get involved with different things, we'll see. I think, like anything, we're in the early days and some of these things will come to fruition but there's definitely something there. Just looking at how decentralized so many things are becoming then I think a lot of those things do need to. 

[00:20:20] Megan Holston Alexander: Agreed and I think there's pros and cons of everything, and I think that's one of the things that, you know, gets missed in the hype cycle. There are things that will be really great about web 3.0 and there will be things that don't work out in the way that we hope, but in the end, we hope we shake out with the best kind of the pack. 

[00:20:38] Dan Runcie: Right. And then you mentioned it earlier about just the way that CLF invests and you co-invest. So you do get to see all the things that come through and you're not necessarily picking or, you know, making them the investments yourself. But do you think that's something that may change with either the vision or the evolution of the fund itself, where you would be making those investments? 

[00:20:58] Megan Holston Alexander: You know, we, at the firm, we never say never. We don't know what the future holds, but I think right now, the way that we've structured it, you know, we've got two really core goals at CLF, and the first is like getting black dollars onto the cap tables in Andreessen Horowitz companies and the more that I can do that, whether it's through co-investing or otherwise, I think that the structure that we have right now is one that works and that I'm I'm really pleased with. And then in that second mission or actually still the first mission, but the second way that we execute on it, right, so CLF has a fund and dollars out of that fund go into kind of the deals across a number of the funds inside of the firm. Not all of them, but most of them. But then the second thing that I get to do and spend a lot of time on, because I don't have to do, you know, a ton of that behind the scenes like diligence work, et cetera, is get additional strategic rounds for our portfolio companies. So not only is our LP base as a whole represented on the cap table, but anytime that there is a really thoughtful or smart partnership or somebody wants to add an additional strategic capital, we now can give even more black people on the cap table. And so I really enjoy spending my time doing that and I want to keep at it, but the firms, we never say never to stuff. Who knows? If it ever makes sense, we'll see. 

[00:22:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And then I think too, you mentioned this a few times just in terms of how the firm is structured in terms of building and investing in relationships. And I think this is something that I know you've talked about in other interviews, something that rings true with a16z overall. Can you talk a little bit about the way that you have the divisions or the way that you have the different verticals for, whether it's entertainment or sports and some of the events that you attend as well, and how that helps the overall mission? 

[00:22:42] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. So for CLF, you know, historically when probably two years ago when it was just me and Chris the two of us, we did everything right and we realized that if we really wanted CLF to scale and to grow and to really have an impact on the communities and generational wealth, we needed to scale what we were doing. We need to get more cultural leaders involved. We needed to be able to make more kind of partnership introductions, et cetera. And so the way that, you know, made sense was, okay, we've got these cultural leaders. How do we bring together the best at what they do in order to help manage these networks? So we brought in folks like Derek who have been on the management and agency side for a number of years to manage the entertainment vertical, right? So when you have one thing to focus on and it's only entertainers, you can make much more kind of clear and thoughtful decisions around who to introduce to whom or who to bring into this company, or when a portfolio company says, I need this type of person, you can make a quicker decision. We brought in Deb on the athlete side. She was a manager at Rock Nation Sports for a number of years, so she really just has the depth of knowledge. And not only that, they both have this really interesting knowledge just about who players are, but how we can structure deals with them, right? This is what they're used to, and now we're bringing in this tech side, how do we make those deal structures match, or how do we make it more, you know, favorable to everybody involved? And so they brought another level of rigor to the deals and the strategic rounds that we were putting together that we needed a lot. And then both Julie and I work on the executive side, which I said is burgeoning. And so we really try to specialize. One as a firm, right? We've got a crypto fund and a bio fund, and people who are specialized. We do the same thing inside of CLF. We try to have people focus on a swim lane. And it's proven to be successful. So far, we're really pleased with that decision. 

[00:24:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think it's effective and I think the names that you've been able to have as LPs in each of the rounds speaks to that too. And at the end of the day, especially in these industries, of course, I know relationships drive everything, but I think it's more so in these industries because especially with some of these high net worth individuals in entertainment, there's so many people from coming out of the woodwork who are trying to swindle them out of stuff or trying to propose them the most horrible deals and investment opportunities. So I think that's where the value add is here, as opposed to, or even more so than someone else who, you know, isn't in these fields. So they're not necessarily getting as much of the crap, if you will, from the proposals. So being able to sift through the good ones.

[00:25:12] Megan Holston Alexander: I think you brought up a really good point. And I think that point is trust, right? So when you have people coming out of the woodwork, like you said, with investment opportunities, I got a good investment opportunity for you. But that person has no real background to be able to speak to like kind of whatever that item is or whatever that company is. We try to really mitigate the risk for our LPs and, and kind of partners that we bring into rounds for CLF, like, we never bring deals to people that we haven't invested in ourselves, right? We feel like how can we tell you like, you should invest in this, but like we didn't do it. And so people know that anytime we bring something to them, it is fully invested through Andreessen Horowitz, like, process, deal team, GP, et cetera. And so we try to, you know, really eliminate risk for them. And obviously, we always have them, you know, do your own research. Here is the information you make the decision for yourself. But we just pride ourselves on building trust with people because if we mishandle people and we swindle people, like that gets around and then that doesn't benefit us, right? If it goes around like, oh, those. sneakers over there, a16z are doing that. But we feel like we have really put forth a concerted effort that people know that they can trust us and they share with their friends that they can trust us. And that really is I think how we try to maintain and engage with our network. And so far, you know, that network has been able to grow and we always say, you know, we're not going to sacrifice a relationship for a quick buck that's just not our style. That's not what we do. I hope that that is kind of what's making the rounds. But so far it feels like people really have built a lot of trust in us and we don't take that lightly.

[00:26:53] Dan Runcie: And I do think that information and understanding of these things has just gotten better in decades overall. And couple that with the fact that this is venture capital. Of course, it's a risk. Most of the companies that we're investing in probably aren't going to take off, but the ones that do are going to hit. And you're doing it with a firm that has a track record in this. So I feel like there's so much transparency. 

[00:27:16] Megan Holston Alexander: Well, I don't think I'm allowed to agree with that, so I'm just going to say okay.

[00:27:20] Dan Runcie: Fair enough. Fair enough. And I think the difference there though is that I think about so many of these athletes, whether it's you get pitched on like opening restaurants with their name and all these other things that you know are just dated things. Of course, those things can still work. We've seen them be effective. But we've come a long way. 

[00:27:39] Megan Holston Alexander: And then one of the other things is, you know, we tell people, you know, that invest in our fund to please consider us a resource when things like that come up, right? We say we're a VC firm in your back pocket, right? So if something comes your way and you want us to, like you have questions about it, you know, obviously we can't tell you what to do, but we can help you figure out what are the right questions to ask when these opportunities come in front of you. And so that education piece that we do, I think is really valued by a lot of the folks who trust us with their capital.

[00:28:10] Dan Runcie: And then with your LP specifically, is there anything that you're specifically looking for from a vetting process? Like, not necessarily talking about like commitment levels or anything like that, but more so things that you're looking for 'cause earlier we're talking about, of course, we've come a long way from the celebrity investors slapping their name on things. But I'm sure there are probably still some out there that may want to do that. And you're making sure that that's not who you're attracting. 

[00:28:35] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. I'm trying to tell you all my secrets. You know, the most important thing for us is that we have LPs who want to engage. We want people who are willing to like, you know, hop on a call with us and share their interests or if, you know, you join the fund and you are entered in particular deals or we, you know, come across a company that would be a really great fit for you to talk to, maybe just have a 15-minute conversation with the CEO. There are people who love opportunities like that. So people who want to engage and want to learn and spend time with us and spend time with our LPs is who we try to really, really lean into because it's a symbiotic relationship, We want to support them. But at the end of the day, like our largest goal is to support our portfolio companies and whether it's the a16z team, whether it's our LPs, like it's all hands on deck. And so I love people who come in and have a genuine curiosity and they're excited about technology and innovation and they want to play a role in things that are being built. And so, we love those conversations and you can kind of really tell, like I've had people who you would never think, people who you would think would be super disengaged. Like, that person is interested in tech who are, have gone down like the Web 3.0 rabbit hole and they're like, ooh, and I'm going to do like a token that has this, and then I'm going to give it to my whole community back in Texas or whatever. Like, really is just a really, really thoughtful people. You don't have to be an expert. Like, that's not what we're looking for, but we just look, want people who want to be involved. 

[00:30:04] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. That makes sense. Shifting gears a bit on the talent side of things. We talked about it a little bit about how important it is to the fund to be able to just help develop this space and obviously your fund's doing its part. We talked about some of the areas that you're looking to invest in, how you're looking to just elevate this space overall, what do you think the rest of the VC community and landscape needs to be able to do to ultimately get things to where it should be. 

[00:30:31] Megan Holston Alexander: Sorry, when you say get things to where they should be, you mean in terms of like talent as an employee of companies? You mean talent in what way? 

[00:30:40] Dan Runcie: So I'm talking about talent in terms of whether it's black founders who are leading companies or black talent that are just interested in the space that are either going on to get jobs in the space or to work for other established companies, overall investing and then just being able to grow and see more black talent in tech.

[00:30:59] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. So I'll start by saying there's no one way to do it. I think there are a number of different approaches that people can take. But I usually divide it up at least of this industry into three things. One, funds can, or you know, firms can support black founders, right, by putting capital directly into their hands so that they can build their companies. Two, they can help more black talent get into early stage companies, right? So, employee 10, employee 15, employee 20, because we know that early employee equity can really change a life, right, when a company has a liquidity event, whether it's an IPO or a sale that now that person has capital to start a company or to angel invest in companies and kind of create some generational wealth for themselves. And then the third thing is getting more black dollars on cap tables, right? So ownership stakes, not just monetizing on a platform, right, for all of the amazing things that we're creating, but actually having its ownership in the platform to create generational wealth. And CLF focuses on those last two, but there are a lot of firms, again, focused on, you know, funding black founders. I think kind of focusing on those three core areas can really create economic, you know, extreme economic kind of opportunities for the black community. And so, you know, with CLF focusing on those last two, I think we've got a really special niche that we get to support in a number of ways, which I mentioned before.

[00:32:26] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like the closer that, or at least the more people, whether it's in this generation or in, you know, people that are a little bit older that are still trying to do it, being able to just get more focus on building generational. And just the knowledge and the mindset of it. I think all those things help. I think we're seeing more podcasts, more shows, more content from black folks that are specifically focused on this, which is great. I think, you know, there's never too much of it. So personally I think that I would love to be able to see more dollars and more hiring that happens in these places too 'cause I think we saw, especially in the past couple years, there was so many press releases that came from particular companies, and I think I saw recently there was a big tech founder that just announced, you know, a $400 million fund to invest.

[00:33:16] Megan Holston Alexander: 400 million. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:33:17] Dan Runcie: But like, wanted to be able to actually see the results from those and being able to see the impact and being able to see people, you know, become their own Robert Smiths that can then, you know, pay for, you know, tuition for a future class. The more of those we see, and it's not just the one, you know, few names we already know would be great and I think those things will happen, but ultimately I think that's what so many of us want to see in this space. 

[00:33:39] Megan Holston Alexander: And there's so much embedded in this conversation, right? And I'll go on a little bit of an aside because I think one, we have to understand that like when we think about the future and black equity and empowerment, some people still don't care. Like, there are a lot of people who just do not care. It's not their problem. They don't want to help solve it. And then you have people who kind of commit to things but have no follow-through. And that's what we saw a lot of over the last couple of years. Like, after the murder of George Floyd, all these companies were like, yes, we're going to give this, we're going to do this. And then the follow-through two and a half years later is just not there. And then you have the people who are really, really committed but don't understand the expanse of the black community and think of it as a small sliver, like, really high, like, accelerators that they would want to support who still go to like a very specific set of schools, right, the talented tenth of the black people and are willing to support that. But then there is this holistic perspective around, like, non-monolithic blackness and how do we encourage economic empowerment and growth across the community as a whole? And that's what I want to get to. When we think about HBCUs, there's over a hundred of them, right? And how do we support more of them as opposed to like the same ones that get, you know, a ton of shine. Mind you, when it comes to HBCUs, like, they don't work outside of the community, be like, we depend on each other and we rely on each other. So, you know, I want to get to a more comprehensive perspective on, like, what supporting black economic empowerment looks like from a long-term perspective. So I think we'll get there, but there's a long way to go. 

[00:35:25] Dan Runcie: What you just said reminds me of, there was one of the tech companies that announced that they were going to have a black board member and that someone was going to take their seat away and they were going to make the opportunity for a black board member. And people were very curious, okay, who should it be? And to the point that you're making, who can we elevate to that point? Who could we provide an opportunity for? And I think they ended up choosing one of the most successful and high-profile black founders in this space. And while it is great to see that person in that role, that wasn't creating a necessarily a new opportunity in that same type of way, and it goes back to the talented tenth thing. 

[00:36:02] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. We're here. And you know, I think you bring up a good point when, and now we're about to get into black history, but that's okay 'cause this is for the people. Conceptually, when you think about the talented tenth that's, you know, W. E. B. Du Bois and, like, his concept from a sociological perspective, and you think about who he was at tension with the most, Booker T. Washington and this concept of the Atlanta Compromise. Two very powerful black men, the founder of Tuskegee University versus, like, the first black man to get a PhD at Harvard. Conceptually thinking there are multiple ways in which the black race can succeed. And I think that's still very much the case, right? So, you know, W. E. B. Du Bois is very much like, we should be going to college. We should be getting these advanced degrees. Like we can have these like high power jobs, et cetera, and be in government, but Booker T. Washington is like, our people down here, don't even have running water, right? We should be focused on trying to get like basic level of education, jobs that provide us, like, a source of income that's steady, et cetera. So my point is, you know, reasonable people can disagree to what the solution is. And, again, I think there's multiple approaches and so I think if we can, you know, not just go one route, right? It can't always be about only the talented tenth, but kind of like also bring up a pathway where in Booker T. Washington space, right? That's why we'll have all the like, black agricultural people. Tuskegee is, like, the best university for, like, mechanical engineering and industrial engineering. And that's all like thematically with Booker T. Washington. So there's room for both. We just have a habit of focusing on one. Ali went there and went into a total black history tangent. 

[00:37:38] Dan Runcie: We could do a whole episode on that. But I'm glad you brought that up 'cause I do think that analogy and just, it ties so much of this together and ultimately the purpose of the fund and what you're trying to do. When I think about the nuance of all these conversations and the comprehensiveness of it what people need to hear so thank you for that.

[00:37:56] Megan Holston Alexander: Fun fact. I'm actually a sociologist by trade. It was my undergrad. My undergrad degree, I got a Master's in it. I went to get a PhD, dropped out 'cause I hated it, moved to California, and got into tech and my dog is actually named after W. E. B. Du Bois. So fun fact for the people out there.

[00:38:14] Dan Runcie: Still fresh, I mean for some of that, you know, I'm sure the sociology degree may have been, you know, some time ago, but still fresh. You still got it. 

[00:38:21] Megan Holston Alexander: It's good stuff. I love social interaction and studying how people engage with each other. So it's my secret passion. I'm a sociology capitalist, I guess so. 

[00:38:32] Dan Runcie: Of course, no, I think that there's some term there. But shifting gears a bit though, this is also somewhat on a sociology perspective, especially among VCs, the concept of where to live and where people are investing in has just been a bigger discussion ever since the pandemic had started and you are someone that lived in the Bay, you've recently moved to Alabama. And it'll be great to hear two parts. One, not just why you made the move, but also what is your take right now on the Bay Area, on San Francisco, because it is such a polarizing discussion point, especially from whether it was even people I talked to when I was at the summit or in so many conversations, for me as someone that still lives here.

[00:39:15] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. So it's polarizing for a lot of people, but my feeling is clear and I've always felt that, like, talent is truly, truly all over. So I moved to Alabama because, you know, I got two little babies and, you know, my parents are getting older, and I wanted to be able to have my kids spend time with them and to go to Mimi's house, and Mimi to be able to come to their school stuff. And so, you know, the pandemic really allowed us the opportunity to do that because as you know, Andreessen Horowitz moved to the cloud. Prior to the pandemic, we were very much a, you know, in office culture as most firms were. But you know, much to the credit of our leadership, they saw how much flexibility people had while still being productive and wanted to be sure that, you know, people were able to maintain that. So I'm really grateful for it. But, you know, my stance has been the same. I've always felt like people, smart people come from everywhere and they can be everywhere. I used to get really offended, actually. So I went to an HBCU undergrad. I went to Clark Atlanta, but ultimately got an MBA at Stanford. And somehow after I went to Stanford, everybody starts, like, picking up the phone for you, right? And then they'll, like, respond to your emails when they, you know, see a certain thing there. But people are like, oh, I see you went to Stanford. Like, you must be smart. And I'm like, I was smart before I went to Stanford. I was smart in Alabama, you know what I mean? And so I've always conceptually believe that, you know, yes, people get these extra markers, but that doesn't necessarily determine, like, I didn't go to Stanford and get smart. I didn't go to Stanford and get some magical thing that makes me, you know, smarter than everybody else. And so I've just always been a believer in, you know, talent being everywhere. As far as like the Bay, in particular, I do think, you know, something special happens when you can kind of create some serendipity and put people in the same place. It's not that like, oh, you know, everybody was just born there. They're very smart. It's like, no, like, people were actively coming there to join companies, et cetera. So you did get this great critical mass of people living in one place, especially when offices were in office culture. But now kind of that disbursement has happened and I think it just shows people that like, yeah, people who are interested in tech and building things. Also, they desire to live outside of the Bay Area for whatever reason, whether it's family or friends or I want to live near Warm Beach. Whatever the case is, I just think, and again, have always believed that you can live anywhere and be smart and productive and happy.

[00:41:38] Dan Runcie: And I think a lot of this was inevitable. We knew that as technology got better and better, the power of conglomeration, especially from a physical location perspective, was only going to lessen. I don't think it necessarily goes down to zero. There, of course, is benefit and why people live in particular places, but I do think that what we saw the past 15 years up until maybe the past two years was at least like the last wave. And you saw it before, whether it was with, you know, the auto industry or the Midwest of all these other places. Like, we've seen this happen time and time again. But what's different now is that things are so fragmented and it makes me think a lot of things we see in music as well. We saw so many areas that were just such culture beds for where the new hot sound was coming from, where the hottest music was. And I think we still see a lot of that. But we're starting to see even that spread out of it too. So this is happening across the board. 

[00:42:31] Megan Holston Alexander: Yep. I agree. And, you know, I think as long as companies support their employees' needs in whatever it is to be productive, I think we'll get to the right answer. So for example, our firm allows you, if you want to go to the office, you can. There's, like, no office that exists, so, like, you can't get interaction if you desire it. But not requiring it allows both types of people to be happy. And quite frankly, like, most people don't even know I live in Alabama. Like, I'll be on the phone with somebody from work and I'll like, no, I'm in Alabama. And they're like, oh, how long you visiting for? And I'm like, no, I live here. And like, everybody's eyes bug out and they're like, what? You can be equally as productive and no one have no, you know, no idea where you are.

[00:43:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think that, and it's interesting, I've heard, you know, from some founders that are trying to go back in the office, some founders that are, you know, doing things remotely a hundred percent. And part of it is all that works for you, but the fact is we have options now and that's basically it.

[00:43:30] Megan Holston Alexander: And I appreciate, again, the flexibility of so many companies to, like, actively buck against what the normal used to be, because I think it would've been really easy or conceptually easy to say, like, we're going back into the office. Like, that's what it is, and, you know, that's the end. But for all the companies that are like, hey, the world is changing, let me adapt. I and I know so many other people are really grateful for that. And me as a new mom, the flexibility it's given me is just huge. 

[00:44:00] Dan Runcie: Right. And to tie it all in too, it just allows the greatness and the genius to come from so many other areas that aren't filtered by all of the other things that let people pick from the pools of talent that existed before.

[00:44:13] Megan Holston Alexander: Agreed. The CLF team, at this point, I don't think anybody's in the Bay.

[00:44:17] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. 

[00:44:18] Megan Holston Alexander: I knew we've got New York and Miami and LA. Okay, wait, no, we do have one person in the Bay. But the fact is that this team, CLF as it is now, could not have existed if we could only be in Menlo Park. 

[00:44:31] Dan Runcie: Right, right. No, that's a good point. That's a good point. All right. Well, Megan, this is great. Covered a bunch. We got a deeper look behind the fund. Everything that goes behind the work you're doing.

[00:44:41] Megan Holston Alexander: Wait, we're not done, are we? 

[00:44:43] Dan Runcie: We're getting to the tail end. We're going to the tail end. Oh, you got more? 

[00:44:46] Megan Holston Alexander: You couldn't convince me that that wasn't only 20 minutes.

[00:44:50] Dan Runcie: No, we definitely, we definitely had some good deep dives in here. This was good. But no, before we let you go though, what's one big thing that you're excited for 2023? 

[00:44:59] Megan Holston Alexander: One thing I'm excited for 2023 for the fund, I am really excited to continue to, like, bring people together. In the last two and a half years, we haven't been able to do that, but CLF as a fund and as a network really relies on putting interesting people in a room together so magic can happen. And you probably heard me saying it's all around like the summit a few weeks ago. Like, my favorite part of my job is when, like, I know somebody and I know somebody else and I see them and I'm like, ooh, they need to talk. And I'll bring them together and I'll say, like, I don't know what's going to happen here, but y'all need to talk and whatever happens, give me my credit. And then I walk off. And then there's like all this like zhooshing and this magic that happens. I love those moments. So hopefully I can get to create more of those in 2023 with the awesome team that we've built at CLF.

[00:45:50] Dan Runcie: Well, we'll definitely be looking out for that for sure. Megan, thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for coming on. 

[00:45:56] Megan Holston Alexander: You as well. Thank you. I appreciate it. You're doing something very amazing with Trapital, and I mean, I just feel honored that you wouldn't let me be on your platform. 

[00:46:04] Dan Runcie: Of course, these are the conversations you want to have. Thank you. Appreciate that. 

[00:46:08] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.



]]> 2869 no The Culture Report, and DICE President on Making Music Ticketing Less Transactional https://www.trapital.com/podcast At the top of the episode, I talk about Trapital’s new Culture Report and our opening section on hip-hop’s “decline.” This report is sponsored by DICE, and it was a great chance to chat with DICE President Russ Tannen about the future of ticketing and live events. Russ moved to New York City in 2021 amid the pandemic with one lofty goal: grow the music ticketing platform’s business inside the competitive United States market. If that wasn’t challenging enough, this was all while live musical shows were still hard to come by. More than a year later, DICE is still in growth mode, not only in the US but with aspirations for other international markets too. Russ was a day-one employee of DICE when it started in 2013 in Europe. What separated the platform then — and to this day — is its laser focus on the music fan. Unlike its major competitors, DICE is as much a discovery platform as a point-of-sale. Using the app’s own internal data, fans are recommended local shows to attend.  The recommendation system was created with the intent of improving the live music-going experience for fans. This same reason is also why the ticket price you see on DICE is the final price, no extra fees added at check-out. DICE tickets also can’t be resold outside of its app, ensuring true fans, not ticket scalpers, will have first access to see their favorite artists.  Russ joined me on the show to discuss the inner workings of DICE, from the app’s unique benefits for fans, artists, and venues alike to its overarching growth strategy. Here’s everything we covered: [0:35] The Culture Report [13:01] DICE entering the US market amid pandemic [15:26] Competing against other ticketing platforms [19:58] Re-wiring consumer behavior around attending events [22:15] Prior partnership with Kanye West [23:37] Has there been any artist pushback? [25:16] Showing ticket price upfront, not at checkout [28:10] How DICE deals with ticket-buying bots [35:57] DICE’s investment in data science is paying off [35:37] Partnering with Ice Spice [38:21] Early signals that an artist is on the rise [40:22] Correlation between social media and streaming numbers on ticket sales [43:16] Differences in ticketing in US vs. other markets [46:18] Sales strategies for low-demand shows [48:46] DICE’s plans to tap more into Latin music market [52:27] Expansion is DICE’s primary focus in 2023 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Russ Tannen, @RussTannen   Download The Culture Report here: https://trapital.ck.page/a23b7a6a4a   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Russ Tannen: At one point I was booking in London a 150-capacity venue, and I thought it was amazing when 400 people would show up for the hundred 50 capacity show, and we try and cram them all in. And I always saw that was an amazing sign. Those shows were always free, but obviously, now we are ticketing around the world, many of the best 100 to 200-capacity venues that exist in some of the best music cities in the world. So what's fascinating for us is to not just be speaking to the people that are running and booking those venues, but to be looking at the data of, okay, which shows sold out on and out at that level, and who's got the biggest waiting list at that level. And we see a complete global picture of that. [00:00:42] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.    [00:01:02] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Russ Tannen. He's the president of DICE, which is a ticketing platform for live events that's working to make ticketing fairer for fans of live music. They're also working to make sure that there's personalization, so that fans have a better understanding for the music and the concerts from the people that they want to be able to see. And they've been using a ton of analytics to address some of the challenges that the live entertainment industry has faced over the years. DICE is one of the presenting sponsors for Trapital's 2022 Culture Report that is out and available. You can get that on the Trapital website or if you're on the email list. And it was great to talk to Russ about some of those findings and also get a better understanding for the main problem that DICE is trying to solve. There are several aspects of the live ticketing business from scalpers and bots that are raising prices, with artists and fans not necessarily being able to have the most direct connection possible, and fans not always necessarily knowing what concerts are in their area, other people that they may want to see, and being able to get personalized recommendations there. So Russ really brought us under the hood, painted us a picture of what the events business looks like. This is a company that started in the UK, was able to get a good amount of market share there, and is now expanding into the US. So we talked about how they're focused on the venues, specifically, that have capacity from 200 people up to 10,000, what that looks like, what the opportunities are, what some of the challenges are, and what he's ultimately looking forward to most. Here's my chat with Russ. [00:02:36] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have Russ Tannen, who is the president of DICE, a company that is on a mission to help solve a number of the challenges right now in the ticketing and live events business. And I give you a lot of credit because this is a difficult business for a number of reasons, and you're entering a US market where I think there's so much opportunity for improvements with things. So it would be great to hear from you all, and for the folks listening, what your strategy is and why the US market's been so important for you. [00:03:08] Russ Tannen: Thanks Dan. Thanks so much for having me on. It's really good to meet you and to get a chance to have this conversation. I don't know why you think it's difficult. It's it's been so straightforward. It's been such a breeze the last nine years. No, it's definitely complicated. Before we jump into it, and I do want to tackle that one, I wanted to ask you a question first actually. What was the first concert you went to, Dan?  [00:03:27] Dan Runcie: Ooh, the first concert I went to. So I am Jamaican and my parents are Big Harry Belafonte fans, so I must have been nine or so, and we all went as a family to a Harry Belafonte concert. I grew up in Hartford, Connecticut, so he had come through, so that was the first one.  [00:03:44] Russ Tannen: Wow. What was the first one where you, like, bought a ticket or you were, like, going with your mates and you were, like, excited to go?  [00:03:49] Dan Runcie: Okay. The first one where was actually, like, me going, it was a 50 Cent concert. He had come through, they had this concert venue, the Meadows in the Hartford area. So, yeah, we went to that. This is like right when he had, like, blown up.  [00:04:00] Russ Tannen: How was it? Amazing?  [00:04:02] Dan Runcie: I mean, at that age, it was amazing. I thought that it was the coolest thing ever. I mean, this was the person that everyone was talking about, Oh, you know, he got shot nine times. He's this mythical legend. And then you get to see him in this venue. And of course, you're also, you know, you're young, you're with your friends, you're finally, like, getting out, like, people are finally starting to go different places. So I really enjoy that. And yeah, I mean, that was with my own money for the first time. [00:04:25] Russ Tannen: Yeah. I love thinking about those memories. I found a picture of me going to my, like, first proper concert, which is, like, I used to have hair, obviously, when I was a teenager and it was, like, dyed green, and we were going to see Deftones and Linkin Park play. They were playing in London. And I remember just being with all my mates going, it was like the most exciting thing ever to, like, go to that show. And I love like, thinking about those things and that feeling and that emotion 'cause I think, like, if you have, like, a really amazing experience early going to a concert and feeling all of those emotions about going to see live music, then it can really stay with you, like, your whole life. And I think a lot of what we're trying to do and what we're trying to capture is that feeling for as many people as possible and to get more people having those types of experiences, like, more of the time, really just spending less time at home. Like that's what we're really, that's what DICE is all about. Like, more than being an app or being a company or all the other things that we're doing, like, it's really, like, how do you get more people to feel like they're going to the 50 Cent concert and just, like, this is it, like, but thanks for sharing that.  [00:05:26] Dan Runcie: Oh, definitely.  [00:05:27] Russ Tannen: Yeah, I moved to the US in April last year. So I'm joining on the call from New York at the moment. And we already had a presence here. We'd been building up the business in LA for a few years before, and obviously, the pandemic hit. And I think coming out of the pandemic, we realized that there was an opportunity to start working with a number of partners in New York and really focus on our growth here and building out a team. So when I got here in April, there were three people on the team here. We've built that out to 70 people in this office and a hundred people in the US team overall with other little posts in Miami and Nashville as well as the team in LA. And, yeah, I think it's an extremely competitive market, obviously, but I also think that one of the great things that the pandemic really showed us was just how big and how strong the independent music scene in the US really is. And a big part of that, I think, was the work that Dayna Frank did and founding NIVA and really uniting all of those independent venues together to lobby for the grants that they got to keep the businesses going. And I think that that was just like a really interesting thing t o come out of it and something that will go on for a long time and last for a long time. Now, that organization, and I think it helped to show everyone, you know, how strong the independent music scene is here and what a large opportunity for a company like ours that works only with independent venues and promoters has to build, you know, a very big business here, too, and to support all the artists that are playing in those venues. So we really focus between. 200 - 10,000 capacity. Those are the types of venues we work with. And for people that are listening that don't know what DICE is, you know, we're a mobile event discovery and ticketing app that's working directly with venues and promoters to, you know, increase sales for those shows and to do all the things you'd be expecting a ticket company to do. So, yeah, but that's really where we play. It's a very competitive space, but it's a bit different to thinking about arenas and stadiums and you know, maybe that part of the live business.  [00:07:19] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. I do think that, of course, that you have, whether it's ATG or Live Nation, having those arenas and stadiums and a lot of the partnerships there, the independent opportunity is much more flexible and I think there's less pure ownership there from a lot of the big players, but I do know that there's still competition from, whether it's your folks like Eventbrite or others. How have you been able to work and gain market share given that dynamic with some of the other players from that 200 to 10K capacity venue?  [00:07:51] Russ Tannen: Yeah, I think that we've been going for nine years now. And we had originally worked as promoters, we'd also run venues. We were working in artist management before starting DICE, and I think we had a number of different perspectives from day one in building the company and the kind of foundational things that we focused on were probably a little different to someone who's maybe more coming from a technology background and seeing a market opportunity and looking at how to build for the venue client. Whereas we always kind of still had a management hat on the whole time. And also we're really thinking about how to build for the fan, and we've had this kind of laser focus on building for the fan experience and that started all the way back with making it a completely mobile product, making the actual purchase of the ticket extremely easy, always showing the full price upfront so you don't get that sticker shock at the end of the purchase when it's suddenly more expensive, stopping the tickets from being sold on resale, introducing functionality like the waiting list where if a show sells out, you can join a waiting list and if tickets get returned to that waiting list, you can just pick them up at the same price. All these things that we did very early that just built a lot of trust very quickly, I think, with fans to become like their preferred platform for tickets and then through time thinking even more about social functionality connecting with your friends. We talk to fans all the time and fans would tell us the number one reason that they wouldn't buy a ticket for a show would be that they wouldn't know who to go with. But we would know that from all the fans that we had using the product, that there must be some that were already friends. So we made it so you could connect with your friends through the app, through your contacts, and then on an event level, you can actually see who from your friends is going to the show, who's been to see that artist before, who's saved that event? You can also go on a view where you can just pick, so me and you could pick this page where it will show us events to go to together based on both of our musical tastes and shows we've been to before. So there's all these things that we've built that are really just nothing to do with the person sat at the venue who's the ticketing manager, and they're all about the real end consumer being the fan. And I think that's just been a different approach to most ticket companies in the US previously that have built been more transactional. And so when we pitch, it's all about how do we actually significantly change how people are discovering the events at the venue and how do we increase the number of shows that they're going to by focusing all of their experience on the actual ticket purchase. And that's really paid off and that narrative is paid off. And when we think about a city like New York, where, you know, last when I got here, it was still events weren't happening. So obviously, you know, the number of users on the app was extremely low. We only had a few partners signed that think people were starting to think about putting shows on sale, but it was really early days. We were really selling a vision of what we could do in terms of driving sales and making people go to more shows. But now that we're 18 months in, we can see, you know, over a million people in New York City using the app every month. We can see over 40% of sales coming through discovery, which is sales that we are driving. That's really significant for the venues and promoters that we're working with and of course for the artists playing those venues. So I think that New York's a great case study for us, and we're excited to do it even more across the rest of the US and also around the world. We're already in London and Spain and Germany and France and Italy, so, yeah, we're just getting started really. [00:11:17] Dan Runcie: Let's talk a bit more about that consumer behavior aspect of this because this is where I think you make the distinction. So many of the other events promoters, it's more focused on their relationship with the artist, right? They're essentially the end consumer or the venue itself. But then it's the fan that then sees the after effects of it, whether that turns out in how tickets are resold or how they're initially sold and offered in the first place and the fees and all the other things that come up. And you all are making it more so of the destination for someone that wants to come to a show and wants to check that out, and by also with some of the other measures you mentioned, not having scalpers, resale value or resale, in general, going directly to someone on the waitlist, how do you feel like this piece of it has been? Because I think so much of this is just rewiring the psychology of how consumers think about attending live events. So of course there's the business aspect of it, but there's also a bit of retraining the customer because I think for so many years we've been trained to follow the way that it's been. [00:12:23] Russ Tannen: I know. I also think that everything is always in flux, right? And everything's always changing and shifting. And I think that the moment you stop innovating is the moment you start, like, failing, right? You've got to keep kind of pushing things forward and thinking about keeping the right north star, I think. And for us, keeping the fan experiences a North Star has been the thing that's really led to, I think, a lot of our success. And I think that with the resale piece, that's a really interesting one, how that's evolved even in the last kind of nine years since we started. And I think where we're at now is that we are so at odds with how, you know, some of the other ticket companies are doing it with integrated resale and this dynamic pricing debate that's obviously going on at the moment. And we're really at the complete opposite end of that, where we really believe that if you really rip off fans or give people an experience or perception that they're being ripped off, then the next time they think about what they're going to do with their spare money to spend on social activities or with their free time, they might not pick going to a concert, and we think it's such a short term view to be doing those behaviors. And I think definitely in the sort of capacity size of shows that we're doing and the types of independent festivals and promoters that we work with, it's just not what people want either. So when we are pitching to those partners or talking to artists even about how we do things, which is really about stopping the resale of tickets and having this completely fair waiting list platform, then a lot of them love to hear that, and that's what they want to be pitched. They don't want to be pitched that we've built a system that could squeeze every dollar out of a fan who can happen to afford it. So I think that's a better approach to be doing it. I think, like, with the resale piece, especially, a lot of the early success we had with artists was also on the fact that we could stop the resale of tickets. I was just thinking of when we worked with Kanye on the Project Wyoming launch parties around the US, it was very early for us when we just launched here. And, you know, that was one of the massive reasons that he actually wanted to use the platform was to stop the resale of tickets. So there's been lots of case studies like that that we've had where just really big artists are trying to use us just to stop resale, and I think it's a misconception that, you know, larger artists are actually all trying to just make as much money as possible from the fan using that dynamic pricing or participating themselves in resale.  [00:14:39] Dan Runcie: How did the Kanye partnership develop?  [00:14:42] Russ Tannen: It was really very last minute and unexpected, and it was all happening from LA, and Andrew who's on our team and was in LA at the time, running there and setting up the business there had a call very late. And so it all happened while we were asleep in London, and he'd been told to set up some links, no event details, all super secret. And then we were all in a meeting the next day and I remember him texting us saying, go to kanyewest.com, and it rerouted to a DICE ticket page for the show. So it was pretty wild. But yeah, it was via promoter that we'd been working with in LA who'd been sort of brought on to find you know, locations for those shows and stuff. And there's been lots of other examples of that, but great example of a large artist using the platform for protecting their fans, and, yeah, it was just a good one to do.  [00:15:27] Dan Runcie: Do you ever experience or see any type of pushback from any artist specifically? Because one of the underlying things about scalpers is that a lot of times it's the artists themselves who also benefit from the secondary market, just with the price that is seen as what people perceive as the value for going to a particular show of theirs. And also, since some of these artists have also participated in buying their own tickets and selling them on the secondary market. Have there been any artists or instances where artists have had any pushback on that?  [00:16:02] Russ Tannen: No. Like, the way that we see it is we really focus on attendance. So by having the waiting list, we're making it easy to return a ticket if you can't go, then we're going to be very, very close to a hundred percent attendance on any sold-out show. In fact, what we normally see is about a 15% increase in attendance when a venue switches from a traditional ticket company to DICE, which makes a big difference when you're in the room. And I think the artists get that. The other thing with the waiting list data that we have is that you can really see the true demand for an artist. So an example recently in London would be with Little Simz, where we did this small show and we had 11,000 people on the waiting list for her, and it's just, it was so easy for her to add another date on that show. So there's been thousands. We've had millions and millions of people on the waiting list and millions of tickets returned. But the really exciting story, I think is always when an artist sees those waiting list numbers building and actually adds a second date, and that's when they're really making money. That's a better way to do it, right, really fulfill the full demand, actually have the right number of people in the room, not just a load of tickets unsold on secondary, or use that data properly to make sure that the next show on the tour is going to be the right size, so not missing opportunity on the next go-round or on the next album. And that's one of the data pieces that we really pioneered and a lot of artists have used very successfully at this point.  [00:17:22] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. On the pricing piece of things, does the fact that the ticket price, once it's set is not going to be any higher and it's not going to change, does that change either how you or the artist think about what that initial dollar amount should be relative to what they may do with a more traditional platform? [00:17:41] Russ Tannen: Well, I think that the way that ticketing fees and fees in general on to tickets has kind of evolved, has made it sort of less relevant, I think, to have it kind of separate. It's kind of all part of the pie in a way. And we just always thought that the best way to do that was to show the fans the full price upfront and explain that that includes any fees that related to the ticket. We also fight to keep fees kind of as low as they reasonably can be. So we hope that, you know, the tickets are as low as they can be, but the idea of a face value ticket in a world where that ticket is not available at that price anywhere, there's no box office to go to to buy a ticket from. There's no, you know, that ticket is never available at price. So to show that price anywhere to us feels a bit disingenuous to fans and really the, I guess, the theory is that you hook people in with the lower price, and then you just sort of surprise 'em at the end and they won't care because they're already down the journey. What we decided was that actually fans are smart, and once you've been to one show, you know that's what's going to happen. So it's better just to be upfront with people and say, look, this is the full price of the ticket including any fees that need to be added. And, you know, that's it. That's the price you're going to pay at the end. In terms of how that informs pricing, you know, we don't actually inform pricing ourselves. That's always down to, you know, the venue promoter, agent, artist. And I don't know. I don't know, maybe sometimes, because we see shows coming through now where they'll say, actually, let's put it up in 10 and make sure that that includes any of the fees. Or let's put that up for 20 or 30 and make sure that includes all the fees. So maybe a little bit is starting to happen. And, you know, I hope that's the way that that it goes 'cause people should really always be thinking about the final price that people are really going to pay. And, you know, that's another thing that fans tell us all the time that they like about the platform. It felt a little bit, I think, to begin with, counterintuitive to show people a bigger price. Like, it feels weird, almost, like, to start, but then actually if you speak to fans, then they'll say, no, It's better to know. Be upfront. How much is it going to cost me? Don't surprise me at the end.  [00:19:38] Dan Runcie: And this extends industries as well, right? It's like the Airbnb thing. No one wants to be surprised to see the price double because of the cleaning and service fee ends up being twice as much as the rental.  [00:19:49] Russ Tannen: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It's just the way that we think things should be, you know, so it's a change. Like, it's been one of the big things we talk in length about with partners, especially new partners coming on board. They've done it a certain way for a long time. But actually, you know, there's all types of legislation getting passed now to actually enforce upfront ticket pricing. And I do think this will be the way that everyone does pricing for ticketing, you know, over the next five years or so.  [00:20:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it'll be fascinating to see how that all develops. I know that DICE has invested heavily in analytics and how you think about offering the best service, and so much of this also ties back to ensuring that consumers themselves are the ones that can get their hands on tickets. So how do you address bots? Because I know that's an ongoing concern for ticketing. [00:20:35] Russ Tannen: Yeah, with bots, in particular, we were very fortunate that we started the company when we did, and we built this from scratch as a mobile company. The main thing for us really with any bots or any really anti-secondary measure is that for the most part, you know, everything is happening on mobile. We actually have two of the founders of Google Deep Mind were seed round investors of ours. And very early day,s we were terrified that one of the reasons that the company would fail would be that we would crash on a big on sale. And we used to call it the Radiohead test. Like, if we could survive a Radiohead on sale, we could survive anything sort of thing. And we actually worked and we had our CTO at the time go into Deep Mind and like work with a couple of the developers there, thinking about the architecture that would support, you know, hundreds of thousands of transactions to support on sales, but also to think about how we could protect against, you know, fake people trying to buy tickets. So we've done a lot there, a lot around security. And yeah, we haven't had a problem with it to date. So we hope that that continues. But I think, honestly, the biggest thing is that we've built this all ourselves. We have this huge, amazing product team who blow my mind every day, every year that we do this. And yeah, I think that they've built something really special. That's not something like many other ticket companies have been building on the same, they've been building on the same platforms for many, many years. And I don't think it's as, new or as, you know, as capable of handling some of these bad actors as we are. [00:21:59] Dan Runcie: And I think, too, on the analytics piece, you've also used a lot of that to inform how you think about whether it's helping artists or venues or promoters think about capacity or other dynamics involved with selling a show or with putting a show on together. Can you walk us through that process and how that informs the end product that the consumer sees when they go to a show? [00:22:22] Russ Tannen: Oh, totally. Yeah. Our first hire was a data scientist, so I don't know. It's, like, we're starting a ticket company, what do we need? Okay. Like you might think, I don't know, someone from another ticket company or, you know, an operations person or like someone from a venue. Like, we were like, no, let's hire a data scientist first, 'cause we knew that our superpower would be personalized recommendations and building an algorithm that was extremely sophisticated, that was going to show people the right shows for them., Shows that we know that they like and shows that we think they're going to like at the right time. And, yeah, so we hired this amazing guy, Greg, who still works for us and, shout out to Greg, and he's been part of the team now for many years that's been working on how to ingest all the different data points we have, starting with our onboarding process, which is all about you know, syncing with your music library, but also, you know, onboarding process, showing you different artists and genres and everything, and then starting to record all of your different behaviors in the app, which shows you're going to what you've been on a waiting list for, what you've saved, what you're browsing a lot of, and using all of that to inform your discover page, which is really the heart of DICE and the home screen when you go in there. And when we have like a critical mass inventory in a city that we're in, like, in London or Paris or Barcelona or New York, once we have that inventory, then you have an extremely personalized experience that feels almost as personalized as your streaming experience can be where there's enough inventory that you're going to see things that you're really passionate about and excited about. And we're going to package that up in different ways for you. We're going to show you things that your friends are going to, we're going to show you the genres you like, your favorite artists. We're going to show you things from your music library. We're going to show you all the shows that have been announced for you from the last seven days. Fans are always missing these announcements because there's no coordination between venues or promoters on when things announce. It's just all getting announced all the time, every day, hundreds of announcements. So, when you're looking at putting up, like in London, we're maybe 1500 a month. In New York, it's not far from that either. There's so many shows, right? Like, how as a fan are you supposed to filter that? So we filter for them using the data and the algorithms that we've built, so that we're only telling them about on a Thursday, here's the shows that announced to you this week. And that's really where all of that. You know, that's the biggest piece from a fan perspective of where that all that investment that we've made in data analytics really comes to life, away from the numbers and the stats and everything. That's, like, the real-world use of it. And that's what's driving, you know, that massive percentage, that 40 percentage of sales that we're seeing come from discovery and from the push notifications we're sending. And, like I said before, I think the person, the people that really benefit from that is the artist because that's just sales that are just happening organically through the product that we've built and not another post that they have to do or another ad they have to pay for, which always comes out of their pocket eventually. So, yeah, that's where that investment pays off.  [00:25:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That 40% number is quite high, and it's impressive, I think, just given that this isn't something where people are necessarily consuming their product itself on the platform, right? And I think sometimes that discovery versus on-demand breakdown, you would likely expect that more from, as you mentioned, streaming something where you aren't consuming the actual product there. So the fact that you've been able to do that there is quite strong. And I do have to assume that given the investment that's been put into the data science and the fact that you can direct people and understand what people like, are there any desires or goals to be able to use the platform and the insights you have on these customers to offer them things in addition to concert ticket notifications or things like that, or other ways to leverage it knowing that you're reaching music fans? [00:25:58] Russ Tannen: Yeah, there's two. There's two parts to that. One is, I think, uniquely with DICE, we've built it in a way that what we saw before was that people would discover the show in one place, then they would listen to the artist on their streaming platform. They would invite their friends through their messaging app, and then they'd buy their ticket from the ticket company. And what we tried to do was build that stack into DICE. So you're going to open DICE and discover the show. It's all integrated with Spotify and Apple Music to preview the artist, so you're going to listen to the artist in the app. You can invite your friend directly through the app and then obviously buy the ticket there as well. So what we see is more of the journey happening there. Obviously, the event itself happens off of the app, but a lot more of the actual process of the functional and the emotional parts of like, going to the show, like who you're going to go with, for example, that can all happen within the app and people just spend a bit more time in the app than I think that they would on a traditional ticketing site where it's more like search to purchase is the normal journey, I'm sure, almost all of the sales. So I think that's where we've managed to extend the amount of time people are in there. We are really excited about sort of commerce in general, and we'd made an announcement previously around merchandise and sort of doing more merchandise and things like that, and that's something you're going to see a lot more from us in the new year as well. So, absolutely, and that's something that we already do. We do some really interesting things with Rough Trade Records in New York and also in London where we'll do, like, vinyl bundles with album launch tickets and things like that. So there's already other parts of commerce kind of happening through the app. And ultimately I think the product is well-designed to make it very easy for people to buy things. So yes, whether we're selling them a ticket, or we're selling an artist something alongside the ticket, or we're adding something onto the ticket, I think that it's a natural progression for us and something that we're excited about exploring more.  [00:27:44] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I know a lot of the data analytics discussion leads we've had here is focused more so on the consumer side. Does it inform as well things on the business side, such as the artists, thinking about what size venues that they may want to be in or the promoters thinking about how best to organize things? [00:28:02] Russ Tannen: Yeah, we've been working, I'd say that there's definitely some artists and teams who have been really tapped into that. And, you know, we have a whole artist development team based out of London, New York, LA, and they're working directly with artists and agencies and managers on these data reports where we're really showing them not just where we're seeing a lot of activity from their fans, but we're doing things like suggesting support acts based on other shows that the artists' fans have been to see that might be smaller shows, or we're looking at what cities we think they should play there. We're doing a lot of that on a very kind of bespoke level with artists and also working with artists on getting them into more of the DICE venues and thinking about really make sure that from day one, they're treating their fans well and building that community on DICE, using that waiting list data to plan the next show. There's been lots of successful stories and artists that we've done that with, but just one that's top of mind, a New York artist that's coming up would be Ice Spice, who we're working with on just doing a first show somewhere, so it's not announced yet. But our artist team here is working closely with her team on planning something there, and I think that's really exciting, like, an artist that's blowing up, who's also really keen to make sure that the experience for the fans is going to be amazing from day one, from show one.  [00:29:11] Dan Runcie: So with someone like Ice Spice who is clearly having a moment right now, what does that onboarding, the initial process, look like? Is it similar to the Kanye example where these things happen, or did someone on your team looking and scouting to see who's bubbling and then reaching out to be like, hey, let's make this happen? [00:29:28] Russ Tannen: Yeah, I guess I kind of take it for granted now 'cause we've been doing it for so long, but, you know, we literally have a meeting that probably looks more like an A&R meeting at a record label where we are really saying, okay, what are people hearing? What arts are coming through? And that's how we've really, like, you know, a ton of artists now over the years, we've really identified very early as artists that we want to support and have worked with very closely on different types of shows that they want to do. Like, another example that's kind of top of mind would be someone like Cuco, who he identified very early and worked with on this huge block party that he did in LA a few years ago and continue to build that relationship with. But there's really, like, thousands of examples now, so, probably over a thousand artists this year. By the end of the year, it'll be over a thousand artists would have really worked with us very closely, not just on having a show through the platform, but whether we've informed which venue they play or which promoter they're working with or helping them with the marketing on that event or some other really tangible thing that we've done with them. And really that artist development team, I think is, part of kind of, like, the special source of DICE that's like just a bit different to what a traditional ticket company would do. And I really think the fact that we're able to do that is because of the brand that we've built around DICE, and it is a platform and a brand that I think artists do feel comfortable with and want to be associated with as well versus, like, maybe a traditional ticket company that wouldn't have that same kind of feeling to it.  [00:30:46] Dan Runcie: Right. For the A&R piece of it, 'cause I think that's interesting and I think that it makes a lot of sense, what are the factors that go into the decisions that you're looking at? Because I know I talked to a few folks and there's been a bit of debate around which stats make sense to follow, which stats don't make sense, what's more signal versus noise, how do you determine that?  [00:31:06] Russ Tannen: Well, I think, we obviously have, obviously, this really interesting data ourselves. So a lot of the venues we work with at the smaller level. And at one point I was booking in London a 150-capacity venue, and I thought it was amazing when 400 people would show up for the hundred 50-capacity show, and we try and cram them all in. And I always saw that was an amazing sign. Those shows were always free, but obviously, now we are ticketing around the world, you know, many of the best 100 to 200 capacity venues that exist in, in some of the best music cities in the world. So what's fascinating for us is to not just be speaking to the people that are running and booking those venues, but to be looking at the data of, okay, which shows sold out on and out at that level, and who's got the biggest waiting list at that level. And we see a complete global picture of that. So some of the data points that I think we are finding most interesting are actually the ones that we're seeing very early come from our own data. And then I think that that's always going to be the debate on the, you know, the taste versus, or the gut versus data kind of thing, and a lot of that comes from hiring amazing people, like, we have on our artist development team whose judgment we trust very much to pick the things out that are really going to cut through. But yeah, I definitely think seeing some of those early signals, which may, in the grand scheme of things, look quite small, but I think if you are playing a hundred-capacity show and you have a hundred people on the waiting list, that's a great sign because if you're already driving 200 fans to a show, and you are brand new then, I think that's harder than going from, you know, 3,000 to 5,000 and finding those 2,000 people, I think those first 200 is really difficult.  [00:32:39] Dan Runcie: How important is streaming data or social media engagement or following in your analysis?  [00:32:47] Russ Tannen: I have to talk to the team about how much they're tracking that. I think it feels more like, Ice Spice is a good example of this. So we are talking about Ice Spice, Morgan on the team who's working with her team is telling me about this track, and he thinks it's going to be big, and we're talking to them about doing a show. And then in the time from when we first started speaking to her team to today, you know, her Instagram following has gone from, you know, in the tens of thousands to in the millions. And so it's more like a, we're right about this one moment. It didn't matter a few months ago or whatever, that there was only 10,000 followers or whatever. We wouldn't have ignored it 'cause it didn't have millions of followers already. But I think that now it's more like, okay, yeah, that is a good signal that this is really going to blow up. [00:33:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think just given that large number, it's hard to ignore that. It's been interesting though. I've talked to agents on this platform and they've said that they don't see as much of a correlation between streaming numbers and ticket sales. And of course, I think there's nuance there. Yes, someone like Drake or Bad Bunny that's doing 10 billion streams a year is obviously going to be in arenas and stadiums, but I think it was more so highlighting that some of the newer artists, it can be tougher because you have people that have, you know, so much of a strong following, but they may not necessarily have that following because of their music or because of other things about them. So, and I think we've just started to see more and more of that. So it does create, in some ways, a bit of a unique opportunity for the promoters or events companies that can be able to determine, yeah, like what is the true signal and what are the things that have less weight? [00:34:19] Russ Tannen: Yeah. We really want to try and work with managers and agents more and more on providing this data that we see so that they get a sense of what is really happening 'cause it is just so different. I think if someone's put their hand in their pocket and spent $30 on going to a show versus hearing a track on a playlist, obviously, like, it's just not the same type of commitment at all. So we're working to keep growing that team and expanding the number of artists that we're having that type of relationship with. And, yeah, anyone listening who wants to get in touch with our artist team is very welcome to as well, and you can do that through the site. But, yeah, we are keen to be talking to as many labels and managers, agents everyone really who's interested in kind of digging into that, especially if their artists already have shows on DICE as well on in any of our venues. We'd love to get into that with them.  [00:35:04] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Switching gears a bit, going back to the entrance and really expanding things in the US market, one of the things that stuck out to me from your past interviews was how you talked about how live events and concerts is much more of a localized business, and I'm sure that the experience that you all had in Europe and everything in the UK, there's slightly likely some differences considering things being localized, whether it's in New York City or some of the other markets here. What are some of those notable differences that you've picked up on in the US and some of the cities in the US as opposed to things in the UK?  [00:35:41] Russ Tannen: I'd say that one of the biggest differences is more of a technical thing, I guess, for us, which is that in European markets, the people who actually control the tickets, it's much more spread. So on one show you could have 10 ticket companies selling tickets for the same show, and then it's really just like on the fan to have a preferred outlet or who's, you know, boosting their link the most, honestly. So it's a little bit different versus the US where it's exclusively with the venue. So every show pretty much has one ticket company and it makes the market difficult to break into honestly because of that. It's very binary. You're either working on the show or you're not. Versus when we started in London, we could say, hey, to a promoter, we want 10 tickets to the show, and we would be able to list the show. So if you were going onto the app, you could see all these amazing artists playing. But we didn't have more than 10 tickets sometimes or 20 tickets versus US, where you really have to have the whole inventory and you have to be in a position to do it. I also think that how the market worked in Europe was one of the reasons that we invested so much in the discovery piece because we were competing on every single show. We had to sell our allotment of tickets versus in the US. I think the ticket companies as soon as they've signed the venue, they're almost more lazy maybe about it. So they haven't spent so much on discovery piece. And I think that's why, you know, our discovery story here and the way that it's working here is kind of a rich one and honestly just better for fans. But we needed to do it that way around. I think it would've much harder to start here and then go into Europe. So I'm glad it works the way it did. But that's been one of the big differences. I think for us, really, we're just excited about finding all of the best kind of quality independent operators, whether they're promoters or venues, and really helping them grow their businesses as well. And we love venues that have just really well-curated programming, like, we love the programming. Elsewhere, for example, is another New York venue that we work with where super diverse, amazing program that just kind of ticks all these different boxes, but always hits this quality bar that just seems like almost impossibly high, like, every night. It's really special. So we are really, like, excited about working with people like that. And New York such, it's an amazing city for music. So it's nice that this is kind of our main base here at the moment in the US.  [00:37:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And given that in the US, things are much more all or nothing, does that have any type of impact on how the tickets may go throughout the entire process? I know at least in the US, I've seen a few things. If a ticket is on for a while. And we talked a lot about scalpers and just their influence when tickets and the demand increases, right? We haven't talked as much about when the demand decreases 'cause I know that at times, I've seen things where artists will have their tickets go on Groupon and places like that where they'd be offered for a much lower price. How has that piece of it been in the US where, let's say there's a show that you've wanted to put on and if the resellers are needing to sell for the same price, but the demand itself may not necessarily reflect where it is, or if the artist is struggling to sell, how does the pricing dynamic impact that? [00:38:43] Russ Tannen: Yeah, I think you obviously see that, and not every show can be a sellout with, you know, tickets being sought after. I think that there's different strategies around that always. I think that for a lot of our partners, they're more used to handling all of that themselves where maybe we might be able to work on doing like competition strategy or just doing discounts or looking at other marketing channels or extra support that we can give to a show, whether that's really checking that we've done and reached all of the different audiences we think might be interested in a show and really keeping that as mobile and really trying to stay away from email, honestly. I think that one of the changes, if you think about how event marketing has changed through the years from kind of posters to magazine adverts to heavy social media to email, I think those email days are very much on the way out and really focusing on our push notification strategy and just having a very sticky product that people going to keep coming into naturally to check. That's going to be the best way to really thinking about increasing sales on low-selling shows. I think it was also a really interesting summer for people just being very honest about their ticket sales. Like, there were literally artists just coming out and saying, you know what? We're canceling these shows. We haven't sold enough tickets. Like, that was kind of new. I think people haven't been that straight up before, but that was definitely happening a bit this summer. And I think that it was a hard summer for lots of artists and lots of events and also some people had some huge success. So it's definitely a kind of uncertain time still, only obviously one year or so out of COVID and shows being back. I think that people are still feeling some of that after effects. There was a, obviously, huge rebound last summer that we really felt here as we were putting together the team still, and then suddenly we had all these venues turning on and using the product for the first time. So that was an interesting experience. But this summer I think things kind of bounced the other way a little bit, and we're going to hit a steadier stride coming into the end of the year, and I think next year is one that people are going to find easier to plan for, hopefully.  [00:40:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I bet. And I think that we saw a few things happen this summer. As you mentioned, there was some success, but I think it definitely was a bit subject to that power law, right, where the folks at the top were able to sell out and have their tickets sell for whatever the dynamic pricing set them at. And then a lot of the artists that were either your middle class of artists or emerging definitely struggled. But one area that I do see huge amount of opportunity is Latin America and in our Trapital Culture Report 2022, we talked a lot about how much growth Latin Music has had. Of course, Bad Bunny, but there's many of other artists as well. What does your Latin American strategy look like for DICE?  [00:41:11] Russ Tannen: I saw that in your report and, yeah, it totally reflected what we have been seeing as well, actually pulled the stats to share with you as well as you've done such great work. So it was fun to kind of pull something back. So Latin ticket sales for us increased nine times in the past year, so, 829% 2022 to 2021. And Latin events listed on DICE have quadrupled 2022 from 2021. So we are absolutely seeing the same. It's obviously huge. We've been working with people like the Paramount in LA and for a long time, been working with lots of Latin artists. We just did a show last year with Karol G at United Palace, with the Cuco show I mentioned, we did Bad Gyal in Spain. And also we haven't touched on it yet in this interview, but last year we bought Boiler Room, and they've also had a lot of success with Latin and Reggaeton programming, and worked with many artists, especially at Primavera Sound in Barcelona, which was another one of the festivals we work with where we had Boiler on stage this year. And they had this amazing program there, which included lots of Latin acts. So I think that, yeah, like, I think the whole industry's feeling it. I think it's super exciting. I think it's so cool. And I think that people are still discovering a lot of this incredible talent, and it just feels like a nice moment to have that exposure. I think for us more on the venue side. We're also doing this big push into Miami, and we just signed our first venues in Miami. And we're really excited about building that up there. And we just signed Club Space there, but there's many, many more venues there that we're looking to sign. So yeah, I think this is just like an interesting time. We're probably a little bit further away from actually launching in Latin America itself. But, you know, our partners Primavera Sound are just doing, over the next couple of months, are doing their first festivals down there, which are selling really well. Like, they're going to be really, really well. So definitely got my eye on maybe trying to make it down for one of those and checking it out. But yeah, it feels exciting, doesn't it?  [00:42:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it definitely does. 9x is impressive, and it's especially impressive because I think that a lot of the folks in the music industry are seeing the top line numbers on Latin, and they may assume, okay, well, yes, the Bad Bunny effect, his album is dominating. The difference for you all though is that you don't have artists that are like the Bad Bunny level. Well, I know you're working with them, but since you're primarily focused on that 200 to 10,000 capacity, it means that you're seeing this at that level, too. And that says, and I think that should instill a lot of confidence that this isn't just one or two artists that are pulling up everything. This is an entire movement.  [00:43:30] Russ Tannen: It's a really good point. Yeah. I think that's a really nice way to look at that data. And that's, yeah, it's absolutely what we're seeing and I think definitely it's hitting that point where it's not just that kind of trickle-down effect, but it's also like this bottom-up ground swell of artists coming through. So, yeah, that's definitely the right way to think about that, I think, that's awesome.  [00:43:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think that Africa, with what's happening with afro beats and some of the other sub-genres there, that's next up. It's only going to, I mean, it's already happening, but it's only a matter of time.  [00:43:58] Russ Tannen: It's happening, yeah, yeah.  [00:43:59] Dan Runcie: You know, we see those numbers start to have even bigger and bigger market share.  [00:44:03] Russ Tannen: Yeah, it gets me excited 'cause we're, you know, it takes so much every time we launch into a new country, and we kind of have to do it kind of one by one, and it's a big focus. But we really want to build DICE into being a global business and be truly global. And that doesn't mean just the kind of markets that have this really established touring infrastructure, all these other things. We want to be everywhere and explore all of these different genres and cultures in a way that makes sense. And, yeah, we're excited to be everywhere in the next few years. But in the meantime, yeah, we are helping, you know, do what we can to support all different types of music and sub genres of music and subcultures within music, and we just keep an eye on what we think the next big thing is going to be as well.  [00:44:42] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Well, Russ, this has been great. Before we let you go though, what's one big thing that's on your radar for DICE that you're focusing on for 2023?  [00:44:52] Russ Tannen: I think for us the big thing for us next year is really going to be expanding across the rest of the country here. We are really excited to be in tons of cities, and there's so many amazing music cities in the US as you well know. And we're excited to keep building and be everywhere because we want to be sat having conversations with artists where we can talk about doing a full US tour with them, playing all in venues that we work with, and helping them to plan how to grow across the country. So that's going to be the big push for next year.  [00:45:22] Dan Runcie: Nice. Exciting stuff. All right. Well, if people want to follow along with DICE and if they want to set up their own profile, where do they go?  [00:45:30] Russ Tannen: They can go straight to dice.fm. So that's the best place if you want to partner with us, if you want to get in touch with the arts development team, if you are a promoter or a venue that wants to work with us, everything's there. If you want to buy tickets and play around with the app, then head to, you know, the app store, iOS, Android, and download the app and have a play around with it. And yeah, let us know what you think. And people are more than welcome to get in touch with me directly as well. So it's just russ@dice.fm and they can email me directly. It's great.  [00:45:57] Dan Runcie: Nice. Sounds good. And yeah, the next time that Kanye throws one of these impromptu listening parties or these Wyoming get-togethers, I'll look to see if I see that DICE redirect.  [00:46:09] Russ Tannen: Yeah, oh, well, I'll let you know if it's going to happen. I'll give you the heads-up.  [00:46:12] Dan Runcie: Right. Sounds good. Thanks again, Russ. It's a pleasure.  [00:46:14] Russ Tannen: Thanks so much, Dan. Thanks. [00:46:18] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 03 Nov 2022 08:00:00 -0000 The Culture Report, and DICE President on Making Music Ticketing Less Transactional full Dan Runcie At the top of the episode, I talk about Trapital’s new Culture Report and our opening section on hip-hop’s “decline.” This report is sponsored by DICE, and it was a great chance to chat with DICE President Russ Tannen about the future of ticketing and live events. Russ moved to New York City in 2021 amid the pandemic with one lofty goal: grow the music ticketing platform’s business inside the competitive United States market. If that wasn’t challenging enough, this was all while live musical shows were still hard to come by. More than a year later, DICE is still in growth mode, not only in the US but with aspirations for other international markets too. Russ was a day-one employee of DICE when it started in 2013 in Europe. What separated the platform then — and to this day — is its laser focus on the music fan. Unlike its major competitors, DICE is as much a discovery platform as a point-of-sale. Using the app’s own internal data, fans are recommended local shows to attend.  The recommendation system was created with the intent of improving the live music-going experience for fans. This same reason is also why the ticket price you see on DICE is the final price, no extra fees added at check-out. DICE tickets also can’t be resold outside of its app, ensuring true fans, not ticket scalpers, will have first access to see their favorite artists.  Russ joined me on the show to discuss the inner workings of DICE, from the app’s unique benefits for fans, artists, and venues alike to its overarching growth strategy. Here’s everything we covered: [0:35] The Culture Report [13:01] DICE entering the US market amid pandemic [15:26] Competing against other ticketing platforms [19:58] Re-wiring consumer behavior around attending events [22:15] Prior partnership with Kanye West [23:37] Has there been any artist pushback? [25:16] Showing ticket price upfront, not at checkout [28:10] How DICE deals with ticket-buying bots [35:57] DICE’s investment in data science is paying off [35:37] Partnering with Ice Spice [38:21] Early signals that an artist is on the rise [40:22] Correlation between social media and streaming numbers on ticket sales [43:16] Differences in ticketing in US vs. other markets [46:18] Sales strategies for low-demand shows [48:46] DICE’s plans to tap more into Latin music market [52:27] Expansion is DICE’s primary focus in 2023 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Russ Tannen, @RussTannen   Download The Culture Report here: https://trapital.ck.page/a23b7a6a4a   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Russ Tannen: At one point I was booking in London a 150-capacity venue, and I thought it was amazing when 400 people would show up for the hundred 50 capacity show, and we try and cram them all in. And I always saw that was an amazing sign. Those shows were always free, but obviously, now we are ticketing around the world, many of the best 100 to 200-capacity venues that exist in some of the best music cities in the world. So what's fascinating for us is to not just be speaking to the people that are running and booking those venues, but to be looking at the data of, okay, which shows sold out on and out at that level, and who's got the biggest waiting list at that level. And we see a complete global picture of that. [00:00:42] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.    [00:01:02] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Russ Tannen. He's the president of DICE, which is a ticketing platform for live events that's working to make ticketing fairer for fans of live music. They're also working to make sure that there's personalization, so that fans have a better understanding for the music and the concerts from the people that they want to be able to see. And they've been using a ton of analytics to address some of the challenges that the live entertainment industry has faced over the years. DICE is one of the presenting sponsors for Trapital's 2022 Culture Report that is out and available. You can get that on the Trapital website or if you're on the email list. And it was great to talk to Russ about some of those findings and also get a better understanding for the main problem that DICE is trying to solve. There are several aspects of the live ticketing business from scalpers and bots that are raising prices, with artists and fans not necessarily being able to have the most direct connection possible, and fans not always necessarily knowing what concerts are in their area, other people that they may want to see, and being able to get personalized recommendations there. So Russ really brought us under the hood, painted us a picture of what the events business looks like. This is a company that started in the UK, was able to get a good amount of market share there, and is now expanding into the US. So we talked about how they're focused on the venues, specifically, that have capacity from 200 people up to 10,000, what that looks like, what the opportunities are, what some of the challenges are, and what he's ultimately looking forward to most. Here's my chat with Russ. [00:02:36] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have Russ Tannen, who is the president of DICE, a company that is on a mission to help solve a number of the challenges right now in the ticketing and live events business. And I give you a lot of credit because this is a difficult business for a number of reasons, and you're entering a US market where I think there's so much opportunity for improvements with things. So it would be great to hear from you all, and for the folks listening, what your strategy is and why the US market's been so important for you. [00:03:08] Russ Tannen: Thanks Dan. Thanks so much for having me on. It's really good to meet you and to get a chance to have this conversation. I don't know why you think it's difficult. It's it's been so straightforward. It's been such a breeze the last nine years. No, it's definitely complicated. Before we jump into it, and I do want to tackle that one, I wanted to ask you a question first actually. What was the first concert you went to, Dan?  [00:03:27] Dan Runcie: Ooh, the first concert I went to. So I am Jamaican and my parents are Big Harry Belafonte fans, so I must have been nine or so, and we all went as a family to a Harry Belafonte concert. I grew up in Hartford, Connecticut, so he had come through, so that was the first one.  [00:03:44] Russ Tannen: Wow. What was the first one where you, like, bought a ticket or you were, like, going with your mates and you were, like, excited to go?  [00:03:49] Dan Runcie: Okay. The first one where was actually, like, me going, it was a 50 Cent concert. He had come through, they had this concert venue, the Meadows in the Hartford area. So, yeah, we went to that. This is like right when he had, like, blown up.  [00:04:00] Russ Tannen: How was it? Amazing?  [00:04:02] Dan Runcie: I mean, at that age, it was amazing. I thought that it was the coolest thing ever. I mean, this was the person that everyone was talking about, Oh, you know, he got shot nine times. He's this mythical legend. And then you get to see him in this venue. And of course, you're also, you know, you're young, you're with your friends, you're finally, like, getting out, like, people are finally starting to go different places. So I really enjoy that. And yeah, I mean, that was with my own money for the first time. [00:04:25] Russ Tannen: Yeah. I love thinking about those memories. I found a picture of me going to my, like, first proper concert, which is, like, I used to have hair, obviously, when I was a teenager and it was, like, dyed green, and we were going to see Deftones and Linkin Park play. They were playing in London. And I remember just being with all my mates going, it was like the most exciting thing ever to, like, go to that show. And I love like, thinking about those things and that feeling and that emotion 'cause I think, like, if you have, like, a really amazing experience early going to a concert and feeling all of those emotions about going to see live music, then it can really stay with you, like, your whole life. And I think a lot of what we're trying to do and what we're trying to capture is that feeling for as many people as possible and to get more people having those types of experiences, like, more of the time, really just spending less time at home. Like that's what we're really, that's what DICE is all about. Like, more than being an app or being a company or all the other things that we're doing, like, it's really, like, how do you get more people to feel like they're going to the 50 Cent concert and just, like, this is it, like, but thanks for sharing that.  [00:05:26] Dan Runcie: Oh, definitely.  [00:05:27] Russ Tannen: Yeah, I moved to the US in April last year. So I'm joining on the call from New York at the moment. And we already had a presence here. We'd been building up the business in LA for a few years before, and obviously, the pandemic hit. And I think coming out of the pandemic, we realized that there was an opportunity to start working with a number of partners in New York and really focus on our growth here and building out a team. So when I got here in April, there were three people on the team here. We've built that out to 70 people in this office and a hundred people in the US team overall with other little posts in Miami and Nashville as well as the team in LA. And, yeah, I think it's an extremely competitive market, obviously, but I also think that one of the great things that the pandemic really showed us was just how big and how strong the independent music scene in the US really is. And a big part of that, I think, was the work that Dayna Frank did and founding NIVA and really uniting all of those independent venues together to lobby for the grants that they got to keep the businesses going. And I think that that was just like a really interesting thing t o come out of it and something that will go on for a long time and last for a long time. Now, that organization, and I think it helped to show everyone, you know, how strong the independent music scene is here and what a large opportunity for a company like ours that works only with independent venues and promoters has to build, you know, a very big business here, too, and to support all the artists that are playing in those venues. So we really focus between. 200 - 10,000 capacity. Those are the types of venues we work with. And for people that are listening that don't know what DICE is, you know, we're a mobile event discovery and ticketing app that's working directly with venues and promoters to, you know, increase sales for those shows and to do all the things you'd be expecting a ticket company to do. So, yeah, but that's really where we play. It's a very competitive space, but it's a bit different to thinking about arenas and stadiums and you know, maybe that part of the live business.  [00:07:19] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. I do think that, of course, that you have, whether it's ATG or Live Nation, having those arenas and stadiums and a lot of the partnerships there, the independent opportunity is much more flexible and I think there's less pure ownership there from a lot of the big players, but I do know that there's still competition from, whether it's your folks like Eventbrite or others. How have you been able to work and gain market share given that dynamic with some of the other players from that 200 to 10K capacity venue?  [00:07:51] Russ Tannen: Yeah, I think that we've been going for nine years now. And we had originally worked as promoters, we'd also run venues. We were working in artist management before starting DICE, and I think we had a number of different perspectives from day one in building the company and the kind of foundational things that we focused on were probably a little different to someone who's maybe more coming from a technology background and seeing a market opportunity and looking at how to build for the venue client. Whereas we always kind of still had a management hat on the whole time. And also we're really thinking about how to build for the fan, and we've had this kind of laser focus on building for the fan experience and that started all the way back with making it a completely mobile product, making the actual purchase of the ticket extremely easy, always showing the full price upfront so you don't get that sticker shock at the end of the purchase when it's suddenly more expensive, stopping the tickets from being sold on resale, introducing functionality like the waiting list where if a show sells out, you can join a waiting list and if tickets get returned to that waiting list, you can just pick them up at the same price. All these things that we did very early that just built a lot of trust very quickly, I think, with fans to become like their preferred platform for tickets and then through time thinking even more about social functionality connecting with your friends. We talk to fans all the time and fans would tell us the number one reason that they wouldn't buy a ticket for a show would be that they wouldn't know who to go with. But we would know that from all the fans that we had using the product, that there must be some that were already friends. So we made it so you could connect with your friends through the app, through your contacts, and then on an event level, you can actually see who from your friends is going to the show, who's been to see that artist before, who's saved that event? You can also go on a view where you can just pick, so me and you could pick this page where it will show us events to go to together based on both of our musical tastes and shows we've been to before. So there's all these things that we've built that are really just nothing to do with the person sat at the venue who's the ticketing manager, and they're all about the real end consumer being the fan. And I think that's just been a different approach to most ticket companies in the US previously that have built been more transactional. And so when we pitch, it's all about how do we actually significantly change how people are discovering the events at the venue and how do we increase the number of shows that they're going to by focusing all of their experience on the actual ticket purchase. And that's really paid off and that narrative is paid off. And when we think about a city like New York, where, you know, last when I got here, it was still events weren't happening. So obviously, you know, the number of users on the app was extremely low. We only had a few partners signed that think people were starting to think about putting shows on sale, but it was really early days. We were really selling a vision of what we could do in terms of driving sales and making people go to more shows. But now that we're 18 months in, we can see, you know, over a million people in New York City using the app every month. We can see over 40% of sales coming through discovery, which is sales that we are driving. That's really significant for the venues and promoters that we're working with and of course for the artists playing those venues. So I think that New York's a great case study for us, and we're excited to do it even more across the rest of the US and also around the world. We're already in London and Spain and Germany and France and Italy, so, yeah, we're just getting started really. [00:11:17] Dan Runcie: Let's talk a bit more about that consumer behavior aspect of this because this is where I think you make the distinction. So many of the other events promoters, it's more focused on their relationship with the artist, right? They're essentially the end consumer or the venue itself. But then it's the fan that then sees the after effects of it, whether that turns out in how tickets are resold or how they're initially sold and offered in the first place and the fees and all the other things that come up. And you all are making it more so of the destination for someone that wants to come to a show and wants to check that out, and by also with some of the other measures you mentioned, not having scalpers, resale value or resale, in general, going directly to someone on the waitlist, how do you feel like this piece of it has been? Because I think so much of this is just rewiring the psychology of how consumers think about attending live events. So of course there's the business aspect of it, but there's also a bit of retraining the customer because I think for so many years we've been trained to follow the way that it's been. [00:12:23] Russ Tannen: I know. I also think that everything is always in flux, right? And everything's always changing and shifting. And I think that the moment you stop innovating is the moment you start, like, failing, right? You've got to keep kind of pushing things forward and thinking about keeping the right north star, I think. And for us, keeping the fan experiences a North Star has been the thing that's really led to, I think, a lot of our success. And I think that with the resale piece, that's a really interesting one, how that's evolved even in the last kind of nine years since we started. And I think where we're at now is that we are so at odds with how, you know, some of the other ticket companies are doing it with integrated resale and this dynamic pricing debate that's obviously going on at the moment. And we're really at the complete opposite end of that, where we really believe that if you really rip off fans or give people an experience or perception that they're being ripped off, then the next time they think about what they're going to do with their spare money to spend on social activities or with their free time, they might not pick going to a concert, and we think it's such a short term view to be doing those behaviors. And I think definitely in the sort of capacity size of shows that we're doing and the types of independent festivals and promoters that we work with, it's just not what people want either. So when we are pitching to those partners or talking to artists even about how we do things, which is really about stopping the resale of tickets and having this completely fair waiting list platform, then a lot of them love to hear that, and that's what they want to be pitched. They don't want to be pitched that we've built a system that could squeeze every dollar out of a fan who can happen to afford it. So I think that's a better approach to be doing it. I think, like, with the resale piece, especially, a lot of the early success we had with artists was also on the fact that we could stop the resale of tickets. I was just thinking of when we worked with Kanye on the Project Wyoming launch parties around the US, it was very early for us when we just launched here. And, you know, that was one of the massive reasons that he actually wanted to use the platform was to stop the resale of tickets. So there's been lots of case studies like that that we've had where just really big artists are trying to use us just to stop resale, and I think it's a misconception that, you know, larger artists are actually all trying to just make as much money as possible from the fan using that dynamic pricing or participating themselves in resale.  [00:14:39] Dan Runcie: How did the Kanye partnership develop?  [00:14:42] Russ Tannen: It was really very last minute and unexpected, and it was all happening from LA, and Andrew who's on our team and was in LA at the time, running there and setting up the business there had a call very late. And so it all happened while we were asleep in London, and he'd been told to set up some links, no event details, all super secret. And then we were all in a meeting the next day and I remember him texting us saying, go to kanyewest.com, and it rerouted to a DICE ticket page for the show. So it was pretty wild. But yeah, it was via promoter that we'd been working with in LA who'd been sort of brought on to find you know, locations for those shows and stuff. And there's been lots of other examples of that, but great example of a large artist using the platform for protecting their fans, and, yeah, it was just a good one to do.  [00:15:27] Dan Runcie: Do you ever experience or see any type of pushback from any artist specifically? Because one of the underlying things about scalpers is that a lot of times it's the artists themselves who also benefit from the secondary market, just with the price that is seen as what people perceive as the value for going to a particular show of theirs. And also, since some of these artists have also participated in buying their own tickets and selling them on the secondary market. Have there been any artists or instances where artists have had any pushback on that?  [00:16:02] Russ Tannen: No. Like, the way that we see it is we really focus on attendance. So by having the waiting list, we're making it easy to return a ticket if you can't go, then we're going to be very, very close to a hundred percent attendance on any sold-out show. In fact, what we normally see is about a 15% increase in attendance when a venue switches from a traditional ticket company to DICE, which makes a big difference when you're in the room. And I think the artists get that. The other thing with the waiting list data that we have is that you can really see the true demand for an artist. So an example recently in London would be with Little Simz, where we did this small show and we had 11,000 people on the waiting list for her, and it's just, it was so easy for her to add another date on that show. So there's been thousands. We've had millions and millions of people on the waiting list and millions of tickets returned. But the really exciting story, I think is always when an artist sees those waiting list numbers building and actually adds a second date, and that's when they're really making money. That's a better way to do it, right, really fulfill the full demand, actually have the right number of people in the room, not just a load of tickets unsold on secondary, or use that data properly to make sure that the next show on the tour is going to be the right size, so not missing opportunity on the next go-round or on the next album. And that's one of the data pieces that we really pioneered and a lot of artists have used very successfully at this point.  [00:17:22] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. On the pricing piece of things, does the fact that the ticket price, once it's set is not going to be any higher and it's not going to change, does that change either how you or the artist think about what that initial dollar amount should be relative to what they may do with a more traditional platform? [00:17:41] Russ Tannen: Well, I think that the way that ticketing fees and fees in general on to tickets has kind of evolved, has made it sort of less relevant, I think, to have it kind of separate. It's kind of all part of the pie in a way. And we just always thought that the best way to do that was to show the fans the full price upfront and explain that that includes any fees that related to the ticket. We also fight to keep fees kind of as low as they reasonably can be. So we hope that, you know, the tickets are as low as they can be, but the idea of a face value ticket in a world where that ticket is not available at that price anywhere, there's no box office to go to to buy a ticket from. There's no, you know, that ticket is never available at price. So to show that price anywhere to us feels a bit disingenuous to fans and really the, I guess, the theory is that you hook people in with the lower price, and then you just sort of surprise 'em at the end and they won't care because they're already down the journey. What we decided was that actually fans are smart, and once you've been to one show, you know that's what's going to happen. So it's better just to be upfront with people and say, look, this is the full price of the ticket including any fees that need to be added. And, you know, that's it. That's the price you're going to pay at the end. In terms of how that informs pricing, you know, we don't actually inform pricing ourselves. That's always down to, you know, the venue promoter, agent, artist. And I don't know. I don't know, maybe sometimes, because we see shows coming through now where they'll say, actually, let's put it up in 10 and make sure that that includes any of the fees. Or let's put that up for 20 or 30 and make sure that includes all the fees. So maybe a little bit is starting to happen. And, you know, I hope that's the way that that it goes 'cause people should really always be thinking about the final price that people are really going to pay. And, you know, that's another thing that fans tell us all the time that they like about the platform. It felt a little bit, I think, to begin with, counterintuitive to show people a bigger price. Like, it feels weird, almost, like, to start, but then actually if you speak to fans, then they'll say, no, It's better to know. Be upfront. How much is it going to cost me? Don't surprise me at the end.  [00:19:38] Dan Runcie: And this extends industries as well, right? It's like the Airbnb thing. No one wants to be surprised to see the price double because of the cleaning and service fee ends up being twice as much as the rental.  [00:19:49] Russ Tannen: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It's just the way that we think things should be, you know, so it's a change. Like, it's been one of the big things we talk in length about with partners, especially new partners coming on board. They've done it a certain way for a long time. But actually, you know, there's all types of legislation getting passed now to actually enforce upfront ticket pricing. And I do think this will be the way that everyone does pricing for ticketing, you know, over the next five years or so.  [00:20:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it'll be fascinating to see how that all develops. I know that DICE has invested heavily in analytics and how you think about offering the best service, and so much of this also ties back to ensuring that consumers themselves are the ones that can get their hands on tickets. So how do you address bots? Because I know that's an ongoing concern for ticketing. [00:20:35] Russ Tannen: Yeah, with bots, in particular, we were very fortunate that we started the company when we did, and we built this from scratch as a mobile company. The main thing for us really with any bots or any really anti-secondary measure is that for the most part, you know, everything is happening on mobile. We actually have two of the founders of Google Deep Mind were seed round investors of ours. And very early day,s we were terrified that one of the reasons that the company would fail would be that we would crash on a big on sale. And we used to call it the Radiohead test. Like, if we could survive a Radiohead on sale, we could survive anything sort of thing. And we actually worked and we had our CTO at the time go into Deep Mind and like work with a couple of the developers there, thinking about the architecture that would support, you know, hundreds of thousands of transactions to support on sales, but also to think about how we could protect against, you know, fake people trying to buy tickets. So we've done a lot there, a lot around security. And yeah, we haven't had a problem with it to date. So we hope that that continues. But I think, honestly, the biggest thing is that we've built this all ourselves. We have this huge, amazing product team who blow my mind every day, every year that we do this. And yeah, I think that they've built something really special. That's not something like many other ticket companies have been building on the same, they've been building on the same platforms for many, many years. And I don't think it's as, new or as, you know, as capable of handling some of these bad actors as we are. [00:21:59] Dan Runcie: And I think, too, on the analytics piece, you've also used a lot of that to inform how you think about whether it's helping artists or venues or promoters think about capacity or other dynamics involved with selling a show or with putting a show on together. Can you walk us through that process and how that informs the end product that the consumer sees when they go to a show? [00:22:22] Russ Tannen: Oh, totally. Yeah. Our first hire was a data scientist, so I don't know. It's, like, we're starting a ticket company, what do we need? Okay. Like you might think, I don't know, someone from another ticket company or, you know, an operations person or like someone from a venue. Like, we were like, no, let's hire a data scientist first, 'cause we knew that our superpower would be personalized recommendations and building an algorithm that was extremely sophisticated, that was going to show people the right shows for them., Shows that we know that they like and shows that we think they're going to like at the right time. And, yeah, so we hired this amazing guy, Greg, who still works for us and, shout out to Greg, and he's been part of the team now for many years that's been working on how to ingest all the different data points we have, starting with our onboarding process, which is all about you know, syncing with your music library, but also, you know, onboarding process, showing you different artists and genres and everything, and then starting to record all of your different behaviors in the app, which shows you're going to what you've been on a waiting list for, what you've saved, what you're browsing a lot of, and using all of that to inform your discover page, which is really the heart of DICE and the home screen when you go in there. And when we have like a critical mass inventory in a city that we're in, like, in London or Paris or Barcelona or New York, once we have that inventory, then you have an extremely personalized experience that feels almost as personalized as your streaming experience can be where there's enough inventory that you're going to see things that you're really passionate about and excited about. And we're going to package that up in different ways for you. We're going to show you things that your friends are going to, we're going to show you the genres you like, your favorite artists. We're going to show you things from your music library. We're going to show you all the shows that have been announced for you from the last seven days. Fans are always missing these announcements because there's no coordination between venues or promoters on when things announce. It's just all getting announced all the time, every day, hundreds of announcements. So, when you're looking at putting up, like in London, we're maybe 1500 a month. In New York, it's not far from that either. There's so many shows, right? Like, how as a fan are you supposed to filter that? So we filter for them using the data and the algorithms that we've built, so that we're only telling them about on a Thursday, here's the shows that announced to you this week. And that's really where all of that. You know, that's the biggest piece from a fan perspective of where that all that investment that we've made in data analytics really comes to life, away from the numbers and the stats and everything. That's, like, the real-world use of it. And that's what's driving, you know, that massive percentage, that 40 percentage of sales that we're seeing come from discovery and from the push notifications we're sending. And, like I said before, I think the person, the people that really benefit from that is the artist because that's just sales that are just happening organically through the product that we've built and not another post that they have to do or another ad they have to pay for, which always comes out of their pocket eventually. So, yeah, that's where that investment pays off.  [00:25:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That 40% number is quite high, and it's impressive, I think, just given that this isn't something where people are necessarily consuming their product itself on the platform, right? And I think sometimes that discovery versus on-demand breakdown, you would likely expect that more from, as you mentioned, streaming something where you aren't consuming the actual product there. So the fact that you've been able to do that there is quite strong. And I do have to assume that given the investment that's been put into the data science and the fact that you can direct people and understand what people like, are there any desires or goals to be able to use the platform and the insights you have on these customers to offer them things in addition to concert ticket notifications or things like that, or other ways to leverage it knowing that you're reaching music fans? [00:25:58] Russ Tannen: Yeah, there's two. There's two parts to that. One is, I think, uniquely with DICE, we've built it in a way that what we saw before was that people would discover the show in one place, then they would listen to the artist on their streaming platform. They would invite their friends through their messaging app, and then they'd buy their ticket from the ticket company. And what we tried to do was build that stack into DICE. So you're going to open DICE and discover the show. It's all integrated with Spotify and Apple Music to preview the artist, so you're going to listen to the artist in the app. You can invite your friend directly through the app and then obviously buy the ticket there as well. So what we see is more of the journey happening there. Obviously, the event itself happens off of the app, but a lot more of the actual process of the functional and the emotional parts of like, going to the show, like who you're going to go with, for example, that can all happen within the app and people just spend a bit more time in the app than I think that they would on a traditional ticketing site where it's more like search to purchase is the normal journey, I'm sure, almost all of the sales. So I think that's where we've managed to extend the amount of time people are in there. We are really excited about sort of commerce in general, and we'd made an announcement previously around merchandise and sort of doing more merchandise and things like that, and that's something you're going to see a lot more from us in the new year as well. So, absolutely, and that's something that we already do. We do some really interesting things with Rough Trade Records in New York and also in London where we'll do, like, vinyl bundles with album launch tickets and things like that. So there's already other parts of commerce kind of happening through the app. And ultimately I think the product is well-designed to make it very easy for people to buy things. So yes, whether we're selling them a ticket, or we're selling an artist something alongside the ticket, or we're adding something onto the ticket, I think that it's a natural progression for us and something that we're excited about exploring more.  [00:27:44] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I know a lot of the data analytics discussion leads we've had here is focused more so on the consumer side. Does it inform as well things on the business side, such as the artists, thinking about what size venues that they may want to be in or the promoters thinking about how best to organize things? [00:28:02] Russ Tannen: Yeah, we've been working, I'd say that there's definitely some artists and teams who have been really tapped into that. And, you know, we have a whole artist development team based out of London, New York, LA, and they're working directly with artists and agencies and managers on these data reports where we're really showing them not just where we're seeing a lot of activity from their fans, but we're doing things like suggesting support acts based on other shows that the artists' fans have been to see that might be smaller shows, or we're looking at what cities we think they should play there. We're doing a lot of that on a very kind of bespoke level with artists and also working with artists on getting them into more of the DICE venues and thinking about really make sure that from day one, they're treating their fans well and building that community on DICE, using that waiting list data to plan the next show. There's been lots of successful stories and artists that we've done that with, but just one that's top of mind, a New York artist that's coming up would be Ice Spice, who we're working with on just doing a first show somewhere, so it's not announced yet. But our artist team here is working closely with her team on planning something there, and I think that's really exciting, like, an artist that's blowing up, who's also really keen to make sure that the experience for the fans is going to be amazing from day one, from show one.  [00:29:11] Dan Runcie: So with someone like Ice Spice who is clearly having a moment right now, what does that onboarding, the initial process, look like? Is it similar to the Kanye example where these things happen, or did someone on your team looking and scouting to see who's bubbling and then reaching out to be like, hey, let's make this happen? [00:29:28] Russ Tannen: Yeah, I guess I kind of take it for granted now 'cause we've been doing it for so long, but, you know, we literally have a meeting that probably looks more like an A&R meeting at a record label where we are really saying, okay, what are people hearing? What arts are coming through? And that's how we've really, like, you know, a ton of artists now over the years, we've really identified very early as artists that we want to support and have worked with very closely on different types of shows that they want to do. Like, another example that's kind of top of mind would be someone like Cuco, who he identified very early and worked with on this huge block party that he did in LA a few years ago and continue to build that relationship with. But there's really, like, thousands of examples now, so, probably over a thousand artists this year. By the end of the year, it'll be over a thousand artists would have really worked with us very closely, not just on having a show through the platform, but whether we've informed which venue they play or which promoter they're working with or helping them with the marketing on that event or some other really tangible thing that we've done with them. And really that artist development team, I think is, part of kind of, like, the special source of DICE that's like just a bit different to what a traditional ticket company would do. And I really think the fact that we're able to do that is because of the brand that we've built around DICE, and it is a platform and a brand that I think artists do feel comfortable with and want to be associated with as well versus, like, maybe a traditional ticket company that wouldn't have that same kind of feeling to it.  [00:30:46] Dan Runcie: Right. For the A&R piece of it, 'cause I think that's interesting and I think that it makes a lot of sense, what are the factors that go into the decisions that you're looking at? Because I know I talked to a few folks and there's been a bit of debate around which stats make sense to follow, which stats don't make sense, what's more signal versus noise, how do you determine that?  [00:31:06] Russ Tannen: Well, I think, we obviously have, obviously, this really interesting data ourselves. So a lot of the venues we work with at the smaller level. And at one point I was booking in London a 150-capacity venue, and I thought it was amazing when 400 people would show up for the hundred 50-capacity show, and we try and cram them all in. And I always saw that was an amazing sign. Those shows were always free, but obviously, now we are ticketing around the world, you know, many of the best 100 to 200 capacity venues that exist in, in some of the best music cities in the world. So what's fascinating for us is to not just be speaking to the people that are running and booking those venues, but to be looking at the data of, okay, which shows sold out on and out at that level, and who's got the biggest waiting list at that level. And we see a complete global picture of that. So some of the data points that I think we are finding most interesting are actually the ones that we're seeing very early come from our own data. And then I think that that's always going to be the debate on the, you know, the taste versus, or the gut versus data kind of thing, and a lot of that comes from hiring amazing people, like, we have on our artist development team whose judgment we trust very much to pick the things out that are really going to cut through. But yeah, I definitely think seeing some of those early signals, which may, in the grand scheme of things, look quite small, but I think if you are playing a hundred-capacity show and you have a hundred people on the waiting list, that's a great sign because if you're already driving 200 fans to a show, and you are brand new then, I think that's harder than going from, you know, 3,000 to 5,000 and finding those 2,000 people, I think those first 200 is really difficult.  [00:32:39] Dan Runcie: How important is streaming data or social media engagement or following in your analysis?  [00:32:47] Russ Tannen: I have to talk to the team about how much they're tracking that. I think it feels more like, Ice Spice is a good example of this. So we are talking about Ice Spice, Morgan on the team who's working with her team is telling me about this track, and he thinks it's going to be big, and we're talking to them about doing a show. And then in the time from when we first started speaking to her team to today, you know, her Instagram following has gone from, you know, in the tens of thousands to in the millions. And so it's more like a, we're right about this one moment. It didn't matter a few months ago or whatever, that there was only 10,000 followers or whatever. We wouldn't have ignored it 'cause it didn't have millions of followers already. But I think that now it's more like, okay, yeah, that is a good signal that this is really going to blow up. [00:33:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think just given that large number, it's hard to ignore that. It's been interesting though. I've talked to agents on this platform and they've said that they don't see as much of a correlation between streaming numbers and ticket sales. And of course, I think there's nuance there. Yes, someone like Drake or Bad Bunny that's doing 10 billion streams a year is obviously going to be in arenas and stadiums, but I think it was more so highlighting that some of the newer artists, it can be tougher because you have people that have, you know, so much of a strong following, but they may not necessarily have that following because of their music or because of other things about them. So, and I think we've just started to see more and more of that. So it does create, in some ways, a bit of a unique opportunity for the promoters or events companies that can be able to determine, yeah, like what is the true signal and what are the things that have less weight? [00:34:19] Russ Tannen: Yeah. We really want to try and work with managers and agents more and more on providing this data that we see so that they get a sense of what is really happening 'cause it is just so different. I think if someone's put their hand in their pocket and spent $30 on going to a show versus hearing a track on a playlist, obviously, like, it's just not the same type of commitment at all. So we're working to keep growing that team and expanding the number of artists that we're having that type of relationship with. And, yeah, anyone listening who wants to get in touch with our artist team is very welcome to as well, and you can do that through the site. But, yeah, we are keen to be talking to as many labels and managers, agents everyone really who's interested in kind of digging into that, especially if their artists already have shows on DICE as well on in any of our venues. We'd love to get into that with them.  [00:35:04] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Switching gears a bit, going back to the entrance and really expanding things in the US market, one of the things that stuck out to me from your past interviews was how you talked about how live events and concerts is much more of a localized business, and I'm sure that the experience that you all had in Europe and everything in the UK, there's slightly likely some differences considering things being localized, whether it's in New York City or some of the other markets here. What are some of those notable differences that you've picked up on in the US and some of the cities in the US as opposed to things in the UK?  [00:35:41] Russ Tannen: I'd say that one of the biggest differences is more of a technical thing, I guess, for us, which is that in European markets, the people who actually control the tickets, it's much more spread. So on one show you could have 10 ticket companies selling tickets for the same show, and then it's really just like on the fan to have a preferred outlet or who's, you know, boosting their link the most, honestly. So it's a little bit different versus the US where it's exclusively with the venue. So every show pretty much has one ticket company and it makes the market difficult to break into honestly because of that. It's very binary. You're either working on the show or you're not. Versus when we started in London, we could say, hey, to a promoter, we want 10 tickets to the show, and we would be able to list the show. So if you were going onto the app, you could see all these amazing artists playing. But we didn't have more than 10 tickets sometimes or 20 tickets versus US, where you really have to have the whole inventory and you have to be in a position to do it. I also think that how the market worked in Europe was one of the reasons that we invested so much in the discovery piece because we were competing on every single show. We had to sell our allotment of tickets versus in the US. I think the ticket companies as soon as they've signed the venue, they're almost more lazy maybe about it. So they haven't spent so much on discovery piece. And I think that's why, you know, our discovery story here and the way that it's working here is kind of a rich one and honestly just better for fans. But we needed to do it that way around. I think it would've much harder to start here and then go into Europe. So I'm glad it works the way it did. But that's been one of the big differences. I think for us, really, we're just excited about finding all of the best kind of quality independent operators, whether they're promoters or venues, and really helping them grow their businesses as well. And we love venues that have just really well-curated programming, like, we love the programming. Elsewhere, for example, is another New York venue that we work with where super diverse, amazing program that just kind of ticks all these different boxes, but always hits this quality bar that just seems like almost impossibly high, like, every night. It's really special. So we are really, like, excited about working with people like that. And New York such, it's an amazing city for music. So it's nice that this is kind of our main base here at the moment in the US.  [00:37:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And given that in the US, things are much more all or nothing, does that have any type of impact on how the tickets may go throughout the entire process? I know at least in the US, I've seen a few things. If a ticket is on for a while. And we talked a lot about scalpers and just their influence when tickets and the demand increases, right? We haven't talked as much about when the demand decreases 'cause I know that at times, I've seen things where artists will have their tickets go on Groupon and places like that where they'd be offered for a much lower price. How has that piece of it been in the US where, let's say there's a show that you've wanted to put on and if the resellers are needing to sell for the same price, but the demand itself may not necessarily reflect where it is, or if the artist is struggling to sell, how does the pricing dynamic impact that? [00:38:43] Russ Tannen: Yeah, I think you obviously see that, and not every show can be a sellout with, you know, tickets being sought after. I think that there's different strategies around that always. I think that for a lot of our partners, they're more used to handling all of that themselves where maybe we might be able to work on doing like competition strategy or just doing discounts or looking at other marketing channels or extra support that we can give to a show, whether that's really checking that we've done and reached all of the different audiences we think might be interested in a show and really keeping that as mobile and really trying to stay away from email, honestly. I think that one of the changes, if you think about how event marketing has changed through the years from kind of posters to magazine adverts to heavy social media to email, I think those email days are very much on the way out and really focusing on our push notification strategy and just having a very sticky product that people going to keep coming into naturally to check. That's going to be the best way to really thinking about increasing sales on low-selling shows. I think it was also a really interesting summer for people just being very honest about their ticket sales. Like, there were literally artists just coming out and saying, you know what? We're canceling these shows. We haven't sold enough tickets. Like, that was kind of new. I think people haven't been that straight up before, but that was definitely happening a bit this summer. And I think that it was a hard summer for lots of artists and lots of events and also some people had some huge success. So it's definitely a kind of uncertain time still, only obviously one year or so out of COVID and shows being back. I think that people are still feeling some of that after effects. There was a, obviously, huge rebound last summer that we really felt here as we were putting together the team still, and then suddenly we had all these venues turning on and using the product for the first time. So that was an interesting experience. But this summer I think things kind of bounced the other way a little bit, and we're going to hit a steadier stride coming into the end of the year, and I think next year is one that people are going to find easier to plan for, hopefully.  [00:40:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I bet. And I think that we saw a few things happen this summer. As you mentioned, there was some success, but I think it definitely was a bit subject to that power law, right, where the folks at the top were able to sell out and have their tickets sell for whatever the dynamic pricing set them at. And then a lot of the artists that were either your middle class of artists or emerging definitely struggled. But one area that I do see huge amount of opportunity is Latin America and in our Trapital Culture Report 2022, we talked a lot about how much growth Latin Music has had. Of course, Bad Bunny, but there's many of other artists as well. What does your Latin American strategy look like for DICE?  [00:41:11] Russ Tannen: I saw that in your report and, yeah, it totally reflected what we have been seeing as well, actually pulled the stats to share with you as well as you've done such great work. So it was fun to kind of pull something back. So Latin ticket sales for us increased nine times in the past year, so, 829% 2022 to 2021. And Latin events listed on DICE have quadrupled 2022 from 2021. So we are absolutely seeing the same. It's obviously huge. We've been working with people like the Paramount in LA and for a long time, been working with lots of Latin artists. We just did a show last year with Karol G at United Palace, with the Cuco show I mentioned, we did Bad Gyal in Spain. And also we haven't touched on it yet in this interview, but last year we bought Boiler Room, and they've also had a lot of success with Latin and Reggaeton programming, and worked with many artists, especially at Primavera Sound in Barcelona, which was another one of the festivals we work with where we had Boiler on stage this year. And they had this amazing program there, which included lots of Latin acts. So I think that, yeah, like, I think the whole industry's feeling it. I think it's super exciting. I think it's so cool. And I think that people are still discovering a lot of this incredible talent, and it just feels like a nice moment to have that exposure. I think for us more on the venue side. We're also doing this big push into Miami, and we just signed our first venues in Miami. And we're really excited about building that up there. And we just signed Club Space there, but there's many, many more venues there that we're looking to sign. So yeah, I think this is just like an interesting time. We're probably a little bit further away from actually launching in Latin America itself. But, you know, our partners Primavera Sound are just doing, over the next couple of months, are doing their first festivals down there, which are selling really well. Like, they're going to be really, really well. So definitely got my eye on maybe trying to make it down for one of those and checking it out. But yeah, it feels exciting, doesn't it?  [00:42:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it definitely does. 9x is impressive, and it's especially impressive because I think that a lot of the folks in the music industry are seeing the top line numbers on Latin, and they may assume, okay, well, yes, the Bad Bunny effect, his album is dominating. The difference for you all though is that you don't have artists that are like the Bad Bunny level. Well, I know you're working with them, but since you're primarily focused on that 200 to 10,000 capacity, it means that you're seeing this at that level, too. And that says, and I think that should instill a lot of confidence that this isn't just one or two artists that are pulling up everything. This is an entire movement.  [00:43:30] Russ Tannen: It's a really good point. Yeah. I think that's a really nice way to look at that data. And that's, yeah, it's absolutely what we're seeing and I think definitely it's hitting that point where it's not just that kind of trickle-down effect, but it's also like this bottom-up ground swell of artists coming through. So, yeah, that's definitely the right way to think about that, I think, that's awesome.  [00:43:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think that Africa, with what's happening with afro beats and some of the other sub-genres there, that's next up. It's only going to, I mean, it's already happening, but it's only a matter of time.  [00:43:58] Russ Tannen: It's happening, yeah, yeah.  [00:43:59] Dan Runcie: You know, we see those numbers start to have even bigger and bigger market share.  [00:44:03] Russ Tannen: Yeah, it gets me excited 'cause we're, you know, it takes so much every time we launch into a new country, and we kind of have to do it kind of one by one, and it's a big focus. But we really want to build DICE into being a global business and be truly global. And that doesn't mean just the kind of markets that have this really established touring infrastructure, all these other things. We want to be everywhere and explore all of these different genres and cultures in a way that makes sense. And, yeah, we're excited to be everywhere in the next few years. But in the meantime, yeah, we are helping, you know, do what we can to support all different types of music and sub genres of music and subcultures within music, and we just keep an eye on what we think the next big thing is going to be as well.  [00:44:42] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Well, Russ, this has been great. Before we let you go though, what's one big thing that's on your radar for DICE that you're focusing on for 2023?  [00:44:52] Russ Tannen: I think for us the big thing for us next year is really going to be expanding across the rest of the country here. We are really excited to be in tons of cities, and there's so many amazing music cities in the US as you well know. And we're excited to keep building and be everywhere because we want to be sat having conversations with artists where we can talk about doing a full US tour with them, playing all in venues that we work with, and helping them to plan how to grow across the country. So that's going to be the big push for next year.  [00:45:22] Dan Runcie: Nice. Exciting stuff. All right. Well, if people want to follow along with DICE and if they want to set up their own profile, where do they go?  [00:45:30] Russ Tannen: They can go straight to dice.fm. So that's the best place if you want to partner with us, if you want to get in touch with the arts development team, if you are a promoter or a venue that wants to work with us, everything's there. If you want to buy tickets and play around with the app, then head to, you know, the app store, iOS, Android, and download the app and have a play around with it. And yeah, let us know what you think. And people are more than welcome to get in touch with me directly as well. So it's just russ@dice.fm and they can email me directly. It's great.  [00:45:57] Dan Runcie: Nice. Sounds good. And yeah, the next time that Kanye throws one of these impromptu listening parties or these Wyoming get-togethers, I'll look to see if I see that DICE redirect.  [00:46:09] Russ Tannen: Yeah, oh, well, I'll let you know if it's going to happen. I'll give you the heads-up.  [00:46:12] Dan Runcie: Right. Sounds good. Thanks again, Russ. It's a pleasure.  [00:46:14] Russ Tannen: Thanks so much, Dan. Thanks. [00:46:18] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. At the top of the episode, I talk about Trapital’s new Culture Report and our opening section on hip-hop’s “decline.” This report is sponsored by DICE, and it was a great chance to chat with DICE President Russ Tannen about the future of ticketing and live events.


Russ moved to New York City in 2021 amid the pandemic with one lofty goal: grow the music ticketing platform’s business inside the competitive United States market. If that wasn’t challenging enough, this was all while live musical shows were still hard to come by. More than a year later, DICE is still in growth mode, not only in the US but with aspirations for other international markets too.


Russ was a day-one employee of DICE when it started in 2013 in Europe. What separated the platform then — and to this day — is its laser focus on the music fan. Unlike its major competitors, DICE is as much a discovery platform as a point-of-sale. Using the app’s own internal data, fans are recommended local shows to attend. 


The recommendation system was created with the intent of improving the live music-going experience for fans. This same reason is also why the ticket price you see on DICE is the final price, no extra fees added at check-out. DICE tickets also can’t be resold outside of its app, ensuring true fans, not ticket scalpers, will have first access to see their favorite artists. 


Russ joined me on the show to discuss the inner workings of DICE, from the app’s unique benefits for fans, artists, and venues alike to its overarching growth strategy. Here’s everything we covered:


[0:35] The Culture Report

[13:01] DICE entering the US market amid pandemic

[15:26] Competing against other ticketing platforms

[19:58] Re-wiring consumer behavior around attending events

[22:15] Prior partnership with Kanye West

[23:37] Has there been any artist pushback?

[25:16] Showing ticket price upfront, not at checkout

[28:10] How DICE deals with ticket-buying bots

[35:57] DICE’s investment in data science is paying off

[35:37] Partnering with Ice Spice

[38:21] Early signals that an artist is on the rise

[40:22] Correlation between social media and streaming numbers on ticket sales

[43:16] Differences in ticketing in US vs. other markets

[46:18] Sales strategies for low-demand shows

[48:46] DICE’s plans to tap more into Latin music market

[52:27] Expansion is DICE’s primary focus in 2023


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Russ Tannen, @RussTannen

 

Download The Culture Report here: https://trapital.ck.page/a23b7a6a4a

 

Sponsors:

 

MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital

 

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.

 

Sponsors:

 

MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital

 

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.



TRANSCRIPTION


[00:00:00] Russ Tannen: At one point I was booking in London a 150-capacity venue, and I thought it was amazing when 400 people would show up for the hundred 50 capacity show, and we try and cram them all in. And I always saw that was an amazing sign. Those shows were always free, but obviously, now we are ticketing around the world, many of the best 100 to 200-capacity venues that exist in some of the best music cities in the world. So what's fascinating for us is to not just be speaking to the people that are running and booking those venues, but to be looking at the data of, okay, which shows sold out on and out at that level, and who's got the biggest waiting list at that level. And we see a complete global picture of that.

[00:00:42] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.   

[00:01:02] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Russ Tannen. He's the president of DICE, which is a ticketing platform for live events that's working to make ticketing fairer for fans of live music. They're also working to make sure that there's personalization, so that fans have a better understanding for the music and the concerts from the people that they want to be able to see. And they've been using a ton of analytics to address some of the challenges that the live entertainment industry has faced over the years. DICE is one of the presenting sponsors for Trapital's 2022 Culture Report that is out and available. You can get that on the Trapital website or if you're on the email list. And it was great to talk to Russ about some of those findings and also get a better understanding for the main problem that DICE is trying to solve. There are several aspects of the live ticketing business from scalpers and bots that are raising prices, with artists and fans not necessarily being able to have the most direct connection possible, and fans not always necessarily knowing what concerts are in their area, other people that they may want to see, and being able to get personalized recommendations there. So Russ really brought us under the hood, painted us a picture of what the events business looks like. This is a company that started in the UK, was able to get a good amount of market share there, and is now expanding into the US. So we talked about how they're focused on the venues, specifically, that have capacity from 200 people up to 10,000, what that looks like, what the opportunities are, what some of the challenges are, and what he's ultimately looking forward to most. Here's my chat with Russ.

[00:02:36] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have Russ Tannen, who is the president of DICE, a company that is on a mission to help solve a number of the challenges right now in the ticketing and live events business. And I give you a lot of credit because this is a difficult business for a number of reasons, and you're entering a US market where I think there's so much opportunity for improvements with things. So it would be great to hear from you all, and for the folks listening, what your strategy is and why the US market's been so important for you.

[00:03:08] Russ Tannen: Thanks Dan. Thanks so much for having me on. It's really good to meet you and to get a chance to have this conversation. I don't know why you think it's difficult. It's it's been so straightforward. It's been such a breeze the last nine years. No, it's definitely complicated. Before we jump into it, and I do want to tackle that one, I wanted to ask you a question first actually. What was the first concert you went to, Dan? 

[00:03:27] Dan Runcie: Ooh, the first concert I went to. So I am Jamaican and my parents are Big Harry Belafonte fans, so I must have been nine or so, and we all went as a family to a Harry Belafonte concert. I grew up in Hartford, Connecticut, so he had come through, so that was the first one. 

[00:03:44] Russ Tannen: Wow. What was the first one where you, like, bought a ticket or you were, like, going with your mates and you were, like, excited to go? 

[00:03:49] Dan Runcie: Okay. The first one where was actually, like, me going, it was a 50 Cent concert. He had come through, they had this concert venue, the Meadows in the Hartford area. So, yeah, we went to that. This is like right when he had, like, blown up. 

[00:04:00] Russ Tannen: How was it? Amazing? 

[00:04:02] Dan Runcie: I mean, at that age, it was amazing. I thought that it was the coolest thing ever. I mean, this was the person that everyone was talking about, Oh, you know, he got shot nine times. He's this mythical legend. And then you get to see him in this venue. And of course, you're also, you know, you're young, you're with your friends, you're finally, like, getting out, like, people are finally starting to go different places. So I really enjoy that. And yeah, I mean, that was with my own money for the first time.

[00:04:25] Russ Tannen: Yeah. I love thinking about those memories. I found a picture of me going to my, like, first proper concert, which is, like, I used to have hair, obviously, when I was a teenager and it was, like, dyed green, and we were going to see Deftones and Linkin Park play. They were playing in London. And I remember just being with all my mates going, it was like the most exciting thing ever to, like, go to that show. And I love like, thinking about those things and that feeling and that emotion 'cause I think, like, if you have, like, a really amazing experience early going to a concert and feeling all of those emotions about going to see live music, then it can really stay with you, like, your whole life. And I think a lot of what we're trying to do and what we're trying to capture is that feeling for as many people as possible and to get more people having those types of experiences, like, more of the time, really just spending less time at home. Like that's what we're really, that's what DICE is all about. Like, more than being an app or being a company or all the other things that we're doing, like, it's really, like, how do you get more people to feel like they're going to the 50 Cent concert and just, like, this is it, like, but thanks for sharing that. 

[00:05:26] Dan Runcie: Oh, definitely. 

[00:05:27] Russ Tannen: Yeah, I moved to the US in April last year. So I'm joining on the call from New York at the moment. And we already had a presence here. We'd been building up the business in LA for a few years before, and obviously, the pandemic hit. And I think coming out of the pandemic, we realized that there was an opportunity to start working with a number of partners in New York and really focus on our growth here and building out a team. So when I got here in April, there were three people on the team here. We've built that out to 70 people in this office and a hundred people in the US team overall with other little posts in Miami and Nashville as well as the team in LA. And, yeah, I think it's an extremely competitive market, obviously, but I also think that one of the great things that the pandemic really showed us was just how big and how strong the independent music scene in the US really is. And a big part of that, I think, was the work that Dayna Frank did and founding NIVA and really uniting all of those independent venues together to lobby for the grants that they got to keep the businesses going. And I think that that was just like a really interesting thing t o come out of it and something that will go on for a long time and last for a long time. Now, that organization, and I think it helped to show everyone, you know, how strong the independent music scene is here and what a large opportunity for a company like ours that works only with independent venues and promoters has to build, you know, a very big business here, too, and to support all the artists that are playing in those venues. So we really focus between. 200 - 10,000 capacity. Those are the types of venues we work with. And for people that are listening that don't know what DICE is, you know, we're a mobile event discovery and ticketing app that's working directly with venues and promoters to, you know, increase sales for those shows and to do all the things you'd be expecting a ticket company to do. So, yeah, but that's really where we play. It's a very competitive space, but it's a bit different to thinking about arenas and stadiums and you know, maybe that part of the live business. 

[00:07:19] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. I do think that, of course, that you have, whether it's ATG or Live Nation, having those arenas and stadiums and a lot of the partnerships there, the independent opportunity is much more flexible and I think there's less pure ownership there from a lot of the big players, but I do know that there's still competition from, whether it's your folks like Eventbrite or others. How have you been able to work and gain market share given that dynamic with some of the other players from that 200 to 10K capacity venue? 

[00:07:51] Russ Tannen: Yeah, I think that we've been going for nine years now. And we had originally worked as promoters, we'd also run venues. We were working in artist management before starting DICE, and I think we had a number of different perspectives from day one in building the company and the kind of foundational things that we focused on were probably a little different to someone who's maybe more coming from a technology background and seeing a market opportunity and looking at how to build for the venue client. Whereas we always kind of still had a management hat on the whole time. And also we're really thinking about how to build for the fan, and we've had this kind of laser focus on building for the fan experience and that started all the way back with making it a completely mobile product, making the actual purchase of the ticket extremely easy, always showing the full price upfront so you don't get that sticker shock at the end of the purchase when it's suddenly more expensive, stopping the tickets from being sold on resale, introducing functionality like the waiting list where if a show sells out, you can join a waiting list and if tickets get returned to that waiting list, you can just pick them up at the same price. All these things that we did very early that just built a lot of trust very quickly, I think, with fans to become like their preferred platform for tickets and then through time thinking even more about social functionality connecting with your friends. We talk to fans all the time and fans would tell us the number one reason that they wouldn't buy a ticket for a show would be that they wouldn't know who to go with. But we would know that from all the fans that we had using the product, that there must be some that were already friends. So we made it so you could connect with your friends through the app, through your contacts, and then on an event level, you can actually see who from your friends is going to the show, who's been to see that artist before, who's saved that event? You can also go on a view where you can just pick, so me and you could pick this page where it will show us events to go to together based on both of our musical tastes and shows we've been to before. So there's all these things that we've built that are really just nothing to do with the person sat at the venue who's the ticketing manager, and they're all about the real end consumer being the fan. And I think that's just been a different approach to most ticket companies in the US previously that have built been more transactional. And so when we pitch, it's all about how do we actually significantly change how people are discovering the events at the venue and how do we increase the number of shows that they're going to by focusing all of their experience on the actual ticket purchase. And that's really paid off and that narrative is paid off. And when we think about a city like New York, where, you know, last when I got here, it was still events weren't happening. So obviously, you know, the number of users on the app was extremely low. We only had a few partners signed that think people were starting to think about putting shows on sale, but it was really early days. We were really selling a vision of what we could do in terms of driving sales and making people go to more shows. But now that we're 18 months in, we can see, you know, over a million people in New York City using the app every month. We can see over 40% of sales coming through discovery, which is sales that we are driving. That's really significant for the venues and promoters that we're working with and of course for the artists playing those venues. So I think that New York's a great case study for us, and we're excited to do it even more across the rest of the US and also around the world. We're already in London and Spain and Germany and France and Italy, so, yeah, we're just getting started really.

[00:11:17] Dan Runcie: Let's talk a bit more about that consumer behavior aspect of this because this is where I think you make the distinction. So many of the other events promoters, it's more focused on their relationship with the artist, right? They're essentially the end consumer or the venue itself. But then it's the fan that then sees the after effects of it, whether that turns out in how tickets are resold or how they're initially sold and offered in the first place and the fees and all the other things that come up. And you all are making it more so of the destination for someone that wants to come to a show and wants to check that out, and by also with some of the other measures you mentioned, not having scalpers, resale value or resale, in general, going directly to someone on the waitlist, how do you feel like this piece of it has been? Because I think so much of this is just rewiring the psychology of how consumers think about attending live events. So of course there's the business aspect of it, but there's also a bit of retraining the customer because I think for so many years we've been trained to follow the way that it's been.

[00:12:23] Russ Tannen: I know. I also think that everything is always in flux, right? And everything's always changing and shifting. And I think that the moment you stop innovating is the moment you start, like, failing, right? You've got to keep kind of pushing things forward and thinking about keeping the right north star, I think. And for us, keeping the fan experiences a North Star has been the thing that's really led to, I think, a lot of our success. And I think that with the resale piece, that's a really interesting one, how that's evolved even in the last kind of nine years since we started. And I think where we're at now is that we are so at odds with how, you know, some of the other ticket companies are doing it with integrated resale and this dynamic pricing debate that's obviously going on at the moment. And we're really at the complete opposite end of that, where we really believe that if you really rip off fans or give people an experience or perception that they're being ripped off, then the next time they think about what they're going to do with their spare money to spend on social activities or with their free time, they might not pick going to a concert, and we think it's such a short term view to be doing those behaviors. And I think definitely in the sort of capacity size of shows that we're doing and the types of independent festivals and promoters that we work with, it's just not what people want either. So when we are pitching to those partners or talking to artists even about how we do things, which is really about stopping the resale of tickets and having this completely fair waiting list platform, then a lot of them love to hear that, and that's what they want to be pitched. They don't want to be pitched that we've built a system that could squeeze every dollar out of a fan who can happen to afford it. So I think that's a better approach to be doing it. I think, like, with the resale piece, especially, a lot of the early success we had with artists was also on the fact that we could stop the resale of tickets. I was just thinking of when we worked with Kanye on the Project Wyoming launch parties around the US, it was very early for us when we just launched here. And, you know, that was one of the massive reasons that he actually wanted to use the platform was to stop the resale of tickets. So there's been lots of case studies like that that we've had where just really big artists are trying to use us just to stop resale, and I think it's a misconception that, you know, larger artists are actually all trying to just make as much money as possible from the fan using that dynamic pricing or participating themselves in resale. 

[00:14:39] Dan Runcie: How did the Kanye partnership develop? 

[00:14:42] Russ Tannen: It was really very last minute and unexpected, and it was all happening from LA, and Andrew who's on our team and was in LA at the time, running there and setting up the business there had a call very late. And so it all happened while we were asleep in London, and he'd been told to set up some links, no event details, all super secret. And then we were all in a meeting the next day and I remember him texting us saying, go to kanyewest.com, and it rerouted to a DICE ticket page for the show. So it was pretty wild. But yeah, it was via promoter that we'd been working with in LA who'd been sort of brought on to find you know, locations for those shows and stuff. And there's been lots of other examples of that, but great example of a large artist using the platform for protecting their fans, and, yeah, it was just a good one to do. 

[00:15:27] Dan Runcie: Do you ever experience or see any type of pushback from any artist specifically? Because one of the underlying things about scalpers is that a lot of times it's the artists themselves who also benefit from the secondary market, just with the price that is seen as what people perceive as the value for going to a particular show of theirs. And also, since some of these artists have also participated in buying their own tickets and selling them on the secondary market. Have there been any artists or instances where artists have had any pushback on that? 

[00:16:02] Russ Tannen: No. Like, the way that we see it is we really focus on attendance. So by having the waiting list, we're making it easy to return a ticket if you can't go, then we're going to be very, very close to a hundred percent attendance on any sold-out show. In fact, what we normally see is about a 15% increase in attendance when a venue switches from a traditional ticket company to DICE, which makes a big difference when you're in the room. And I think the artists get that. The other thing with the waiting list data that we have is that you can really see the true demand for an artist. So an example recently in London would be with Little Simz, where we did this small show and we had 11,000 people on the waiting list for her, and it's just, it was so easy for her to add another date on that show. So there's been thousands. We've had millions and millions of people on the waiting list and millions of tickets returned. But the really exciting story, I think is always when an artist sees those waiting list numbers building and actually adds a second date, and that's when they're really making money. That's a better way to do it, right, really fulfill the full demand, actually have the right number of people in the room, not just a load of tickets unsold on secondary, or use that data properly to make sure that the next show on the tour is going to be the right size, so not missing opportunity on the next go-round or on the next album. And that's one of the data pieces that we really pioneered and a lot of artists have used very successfully at this point. 

[00:17:22] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. On the pricing piece of things, does the fact that the ticket price, once it's set is not going to be any higher and it's not going to change, does that change either how you or the artist think about what that initial dollar amount should be relative to what they may do with a more traditional platform?

[00:17:41] Russ Tannen: Well, I think that the way that ticketing fees and fees in general on to tickets has kind of evolved, has made it sort of less relevant, I think, to have it kind of separate. It's kind of all part of the pie in a way. And we just always thought that the best way to do that was to show the fans the full price upfront and explain that that includes any fees that related to the ticket. We also fight to keep fees kind of as low as they reasonably can be. So we hope that, you know, the tickets are as low as they can be, but the idea of a face value ticket in a world where that ticket is not available at that price anywhere, there's no box office to go to to buy a ticket from. There's no, you know, that ticket is never available at price. So to show that price anywhere to us feels a bit disingenuous to fans and really the, I guess, the theory is that you hook people in with the lower price, and then you just sort of surprise 'em at the end and they won't care because they're already down the journey. What we decided was that actually fans are smart, and once you've been to one show, you know that's what's going to happen. So it's better just to be upfront with people and say, look, this is the full price of the ticket including any fees that need to be added. And, you know, that's it. That's the price you're going to pay at the end. In terms of how that informs pricing, you know, we don't actually inform pricing ourselves. That's always down to, you know, the venue promoter, agent, artist. And I don't know. I don't know, maybe sometimes, because we see shows coming through now where they'll say, actually, let's put it up in 10 and make sure that that includes any of the fees. Or let's put that up for 20 or 30 and make sure that includes all the fees. So maybe a little bit is starting to happen. And, you know, I hope that's the way that that it goes 'cause people should really always be thinking about the final price that people are really going to pay. And, you know, that's another thing that fans tell us all the time that they like about the platform. It felt a little bit, I think, to begin with, counterintuitive to show people a bigger price. Like, it feels weird, almost, like, to start, but then actually if you speak to fans, then they'll say, no, It's better to know. Be upfront. How much is it going to cost me? Don't surprise me at the end. 

[00:19:38] Dan Runcie: And this extends industries as well, right? It's like the Airbnb thing. No one wants to be surprised to see the price double because of the cleaning and service fee ends up being twice as much as the rental. 

[00:19:49] Russ Tannen: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It's just the way that we think things should be, you know, so it's a change. Like, it's been one of the big things we talk in length about with partners, especially new partners coming on board. They've done it a certain way for a long time. But actually, you know, there's all types of legislation getting passed now to actually enforce upfront ticket pricing. And I do think this will be the way that everyone does pricing for ticketing, you know, over the next five years or so. 

[00:20:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it'll be fascinating to see how that all develops. I know that DICE has invested heavily in analytics and how you think about offering the best service, and so much of this also ties back to ensuring that consumers themselves are the ones that can get their hands on tickets. So how do you address bots? Because I know that's an ongoing concern for ticketing.

[00:20:35] Russ Tannen: Yeah, with bots, in particular, we were very fortunate that we started the company when we did, and we built this from scratch as a mobile company. The main thing for us really with any bots or any really anti-secondary measure is that for the most part, you know, everything is happening on mobile. We actually have two of the founders of Google Deep Mind were seed round investors of ours. And very early day,s we were terrified that one of the reasons that the company would fail would be that we would crash on a big on sale. And we used to call it the Radiohead test. Like, if we could survive a Radiohead on sale, we could survive anything sort of thing. And we actually worked and we had our CTO at the time go into Deep Mind and like work with a couple of the developers there, thinking about the architecture that would support, you know, hundreds of thousands of transactions to support on sales, but also to think about how we could protect against, you know, fake people trying to buy tickets. So we've done a lot there, a lot around security. And yeah, we haven't had a problem with it to date. So we hope that that continues. But I think, honestly, the biggest thing is that we've built this all ourselves. We have this huge, amazing product team who blow my mind every day, every year that we do this. And yeah, I think that they've built something really special. That's not something like many other ticket companies have been building on the same, they've been building on the same platforms for many, many years. And I don't think it's as, new or as, you know, as capable of handling some of these bad actors as we are.

[00:21:59] Dan Runcie: And I think, too, on the analytics piece, you've also used a lot of that to inform how you think about whether it's helping artists or venues or promoters think about capacity or other dynamics involved with selling a show or with putting a show on together. Can you walk us through that process and how that informs the end product that the consumer sees when they go to a show?

[00:22:22] Russ Tannen: Oh, totally. Yeah. Our first hire was a data scientist, so I don't know. It's, like, we're starting a ticket company, what do we need? Okay. Like you might think, I don't know, someone from another ticket company or, you know, an operations person or like someone from a venue. Like, we were like, no, let's hire a data scientist first, 'cause we knew that our superpower would be personalized recommendations and building an algorithm that was extremely sophisticated, that was going to show people the right shows for them., Shows that we know that they like and shows that we think they're going to like at the right time. And, yeah, so we hired this amazing guy, Greg, who still works for us and, shout out to Greg, and he's been part of the team now for many years that's been working on how to ingest all the different data points we have, starting with our onboarding process, which is all about you know, syncing with your music library, but also, you know, onboarding process, showing you different artists and genres and everything, and then starting to record all of your different behaviors in the app, which shows you're going to what you've been on a waiting list for, what you've saved, what you're browsing a lot of, and using all of that to inform your discover page, which is really the heart of DICE and the home screen when you go in there. And when we have like a critical mass inventory in a city that we're in, like, in London or Paris or Barcelona or New York, once we have that inventory, then you have an extremely personalized experience that feels almost as personalized as your streaming experience can be where there's enough inventory that you're going to see things that you're really passionate about and excited about. And we're going to package that up in different ways for you. We're going to show you things that your friends are going to, we're going to show you the genres you like, your favorite artists. We're going to show you things from your music library. We're going to show you all the shows that have been announced for you from the last seven days. Fans are always missing these announcements because there's no coordination between venues or promoters on when things announce. It's just all getting announced all the time, every day, hundreds of announcements. So, when you're looking at putting up, like in London, we're maybe 1500 a month. In New York, it's not far from that either. There's so many shows, right? Like, how as a fan are you supposed to filter that? So we filter for them using the data and the algorithms that we've built, so that we're only telling them about on a Thursday, here's the shows that announced to you this week. And that's really where all of that. You know, that's the biggest piece from a fan perspective of where that all that investment that we've made in data analytics really comes to life, away from the numbers and the stats and everything. That's, like, the real-world use of it. And that's what's driving, you know, that massive percentage, that 40 percentage of sales that we're seeing come from discovery and from the push notifications we're sending. And, like I said before, I think the person, the people that really benefit from that is the artist because that's just sales that are just happening organically through the product that we've built and not another post that they have to do or another ad they have to pay for, which always comes out of their pocket eventually. So, yeah, that's where that investment pays off. 

[00:25:09] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That 40% number is quite high, and it's impressive, I think, just given that this isn't something where people are necessarily consuming their product itself on the platform, right? And I think sometimes that discovery versus on-demand breakdown, you would likely expect that more from, as you mentioned, streaming something where you aren't consuming the actual product there. So the fact that you've been able to do that there is quite strong. And I do have to assume that given the investment that's been put into the data science and the fact that you can direct people and understand what people like, are there any desires or goals to be able to use the platform and the insights you have on these customers to offer them things in addition to concert ticket notifications or things like that, or other ways to leverage it knowing that you're reaching music fans?

[00:25:58] Russ Tannen: Yeah, there's two. There's two parts to that. One is, I think, uniquely with DICE, we've built it in a way that what we saw before was that people would discover the show in one place, then they would listen to the artist on their streaming platform. They would invite their friends through their messaging app, and then they'd buy their ticket from the ticket company. And what we tried to do was build that stack into DICE. So you're going to open DICE and discover the show. It's all integrated with Spotify and Apple Music to preview the artist, so you're going to listen to the artist in the app. You can invite your friend directly through the app and then obviously buy the ticket there as well. So what we see is more of the journey happening there. Obviously, the event itself happens off of the app, but a lot more of the actual process of the functional and the emotional parts of like, going to the show, like who you're going to go with, for example, that can all happen within the app and people just spend a bit more time in the app than I think that they would on a traditional ticketing site where it's more like search to purchase is the normal journey, I'm sure, almost all of the sales. So I think that's where we've managed to extend the amount of time people are in there. We are really excited about sort of commerce in general, and we'd made an announcement previously around merchandise and sort of doing more merchandise and things like that, and that's something you're going to see a lot more from us in the new year as well. So, absolutely, and that's something that we already do. We do some really interesting things with Rough Trade Records in New York and also in London where we'll do, like, vinyl bundles with album launch tickets and things like that. So there's already other parts of commerce kind of happening through the app. And ultimately I think the product is well-designed to make it very easy for people to buy things. So yes, whether we're selling them a ticket, or we're selling an artist something alongside the ticket, or we're adding something onto the ticket, I think that it's a natural progression for us and something that we're excited about exploring more. 

[00:27:44] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I know a lot of the data analytics discussion leads we've had here is focused more so on the consumer side. Does it inform as well things on the business side, such as the artists, thinking about what size venues that they may want to be in or the promoters thinking about how best to organize things?

[00:28:02] Russ Tannen: Yeah, we've been working, I'd say that there's definitely some artists and teams who have been really tapped into that. And, you know, we have a whole artist development team based out of London, New York, LA, and they're working directly with artists and agencies and managers on these data reports where we're really showing them not just where we're seeing a lot of activity from their fans, but we're doing things like suggesting support acts based on other shows that the artists' fans have been to see that might be smaller shows, or we're looking at what cities we think they should play there. We're doing a lot of that on a very kind of bespoke level with artists and also working with artists on getting them into more of the DICE venues and thinking about really make sure that from day one, they're treating their fans well and building that community on DICE, using that waiting list data to plan the next show. There's been lots of successful stories and artists that we've done that with, but just one that's top of mind, a New York artist that's coming up would be Ice Spice, who we're working with on just doing a first show somewhere, so it's not announced yet. But our artist team here is working closely with her team on planning something there, and I think that's really exciting, like, an artist that's blowing up, who's also really keen to make sure that the experience for the fans is going to be amazing from day one, from show one. 

[00:29:11] Dan Runcie: So with someone like Ice Spice who is clearly having a moment right now, what does that onboarding, the initial process, look like? Is it similar to the Kanye example where these things happen, or did someone on your team looking and scouting to see who's bubbling and then reaching out to be like, hey, let's make this happen?

[00:29:28] Russ Tannen: Yeah, I guess I kind of take it for granted now 'cause we've been doing it for so long, but, you know, we literally have a meeting that probably looks more like an A&R meeting at a record label where we are really saying, okay, what are people hearing? What arts are coming through? And that's how we've really, like, you know, a ton of artists now over the years, we've really identified very early as artists that we want to support and have worked with very closely on different types of shows that they want to do. Like, another example that's kind of top of mind would be someone like Cuco, who he identified very early and worked with on this huge block party that he did in LA a few years ago and continue to build that relationship with. But there's really, like, thousands of examples now, so, probably over a thousand artists this year. By the end of the year, it'll be over a thousand artists would have really worked with us very closely, not just on having a show through the platform, but whether we've informed which venue they play or which promoter they're working with or helping them with the marketing on that event or some other really tangible thing that we've done with them. And really that artist development team, I think is, part of kind of, like, the special source of DICE that's like just a bit different to what a traditional ticket company would do. And I really think the fact that we're able to do that is because of the brand that we've built around DICE, and it is a platform and a brand that I think artists do feel comfortable with and want to be associated with as well versus, like, maybe a traditional ticket company that wouldn't have that same kind of feeling to it. 

[00:30:46] Dan Runcie: Right. For the A&R piece of it, 'cause I think that's interesting and I think that it makes a lot of sense, what are the factors that go into the decisions that you're looking at? Because I know I talked to a few folks and there's been a bit of debate around which stats make sense to follow, which stats don't make sense, what's more signal versus noise, how do you determine that? 

[00:31:06] Russ Tannen: Well, I think, we obviously have, obviously, this really interesting data ourselves. So a lot of the venues we work with at the smaller level. And at one point I was booking in London a 150-capacity venue, and I thought it was amazing when 400 people would show up for the hundred 50-capacity show, and we try and cram them all in. And I always saw that was an amazing sign. Those shows were always free, but obviously, now we are ticketing around the world, you know, many of the best 100 to 200 capacity venues that exist in, in some of the best music cities in the world. So what's fascinating for us is to not just be speaking to the people that are running and booking those venues, but to be looking at the data of, okay, which shows sold out on and out at that level, and who's got the biggest waiting list at that level. And we see a complete global picture of that. So some of the data points that I think we are finding most interesting are actually the ones that we're seeing very early come from our own data. And then I think that that's always going to be the debate on the, you know, the taste versus, or the gut versus data kind of thing, and a lot of that comes from hiring amazing people, like, we have on our artist development team whose judgment we trust very much to pick the things out that are really going to cut through. But yeah, I definitely think seeing some of those early signals, which may, in the grand scheme of things, look quite small, but I think if you are playing a hundred-capacity show and you have a hundred people on the waiting list, that's a great sign because if you're already driving 200 fans to a show, and you are brand new then, I think that's harder than going from, you know, 3,000 to 5,000 and finding those 2,000 people, I think those first 200 is really difficult. 

[00:32:39] Dan Runcie: How important is streaming data or social media engagement or following in your analysis? 

[00:32:47] Russ Tannen: I have to talk to the team about how much they're tracking that. I think it feels more like, Ice Spice is a good example of this. So we are talking about Ice Spice, Morgan on the team who's working with her team is telling me about this track, and he thinks it's going to be big, and we're talking to them about doing a show. And then in the time from when we first started speaking to her team to today, you know, her Instagram following has gone from, you know, in the tens of thousands to in the millions. And so it's more like a, we're right about this one moment. It didn't matter a few months ago or whatever, that there was only 10,000 followers or whatever. We wouldn't have ignored it 'cause it didn't have millions of followers already. But I think that now it's more like, okay, yeah, that is a good signal that this is really going to blow up.

[00:33:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think just given that large number, it's hard to ignore that. It's been interesting though. I've talked to agents on this platform and they've said that they don't see as much of a correlation between streaming numbers and ticket sales. And of course, I think there's nuance there. Yes, someone like Drake or Bad Bunny that's doing 10 billion streams a year is obviously going to be in arenas and stadiums, but I think it was more so highlighting that some of the newer artists, it can be tougher because you have people that have, you know, so much of a strong following, but they may not necessarily have that following because of their music or because of other things about them. So, and I think we've just started to see more and more of that. So it does create, in some ways, a bit of a unique opportunity for the promoters or events companies that can be able to determine, yeah, like what is the true signal and what are the things that have less weight?

[00:34:19] Russ Tannen: Yeah. We really want to try and work with managers and agents more and more on providing this data that we see so that they get a sense of what is really happening 'cause it is just so different. I think if someone's put their hand in their pocket and spent $30 on going to a show versus hearing a track on a playlist, obviously, like, it's just not the same type of commitment at all. So we're working to keep growing that team and expanding the number of artists that we're having that type of relationship with. And, yeah, anyone listening who wants to get in touch with our artist team is very welcome to as well, and you can do that through the site. But, yeah, we are keen to be talking to as many labels and managers, agents everyone really who's interested in kind of digging into that, especially if their artists already have shows on DICE as well on in any of our venues. We'd love to get into that with them. 

[00:35:04] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Switching gears a bit, going back to the entrance and really expanding things in the US market, one of the things that stuck out to me from your past interviews was how you talked about how live events and concerts is much more of a localized business, and I'm sure that the experience that you all had in Europe and everything in the UK, there's slightly likely some differences considering things being localized, whether it's in New York City or some of the other markets here. What are some of those notable differences that you've picked up on in the US and some of the cities in the US as opposed to things in the UK? 

[00:35:41] Russ Tannen: I'd say that one of the biggest differences is more of a technical thing, I guess, for us, which is that in European markets, the people who actually control the tickets, it's much more spread. So on one show you could have 10 ticket companies selling tickets for the same show, and then it's really just like on the fan to have a preferred outlet or who's, you know, boosting their link the most, honestly. So it's a little bit different versus the US where it's exclusively with the venue. So every show pretty much has one ticket company and it makes the market difficult to break into honestly because of that. It's very binary. You're either working on the show or you're not. Versus when we started in London, we could say, hey, to a promoter, we want 10 tickets to the show, and we would be able to list the show. So if you were going onto the app, you could see all these amazing artists playing. But we didn't have more than 10 tickets sometimes or 20 tickets versus US, where you really have to have the whole inventory and you have to be in a position to do it. I also think that how the market worked in Europe was one of the reasons that we invested so much in the discovery piece because we were competing on every single show. We had to sell our allotment of tickets versus in the US. I think the ticket companies as soon as they've signed the venue, they're almost more lazy maybe about it. So they haven't spent so much on discovery piece. And I think that's why, you know, our discovery story here and the way that it's working here is kind of a rich one and honestly just better for fans. But we needed to do it that way around. I think it would've much harder to start here and then go into Europe. So I'm glad it works the way it did. But that's been one of the big differences. I think for us, really, we're just excited about finding all of the best kind of quality independent operators, whether they're promoters or venues, and really helping them grow their businesses as well. And we love venues that have just really well-curated programming, like, we love the programming. Elsewhere, for example, is another New York venue that we work with where super diverse, amazing program that just kind of ticks all these different boxes, but always hits this quality bar that just seems like almost impossibly high, like, every night. It's really special. So we are really, like, excited about working with people like that. And New York such, it's an amazing city for music. So it's nice that this is kind of our main base here at the moment in the US. 

[00:37:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And given that in the US, things are much more all or nothing, does that have any type of impact on how the tickets may go throughout the entire process? I know at least in the US, I've seen a few things. If a ticket is on for a while. And we talked a lot about scalpers and just their influence when tickets and the demand increases, right? We haven't talked as much about when the demand decreases 'cause I know that at times, I've seen things where artists will have their tickets go on Groupon and places like that where they'd be offered for a much lower price. How has that piece of it been in the US where, let's say there's a show that you've wanted to put on and if the resellers are needing to sell for the same price, but the demand itself may not necessarily reflect where it is, or if the artist is struggling to sell, how does the pricing dynamic impact that?

[00:38:43] Russ Tannen: Yeah, I think you obviously see that, and not every show can be a sellout with, you know, tickets being sought after. I think that there's different strategies around that always. I think that for a lot of our partners, they're more used to handling all of that themselves where maybe we might be able to work on doing like competition strategy or just doing discounts or looking at other marketing channels or extra support that we can give to a show, whether that's really checking that we've done and reached all of the different audiences we think might be interested in a show and really keeping that as mobile and really trying to stay away from email, honestly. I think that one of the changes, if you think about how event marketing has changed through the years from kind of posters to magazine adverts to heavy social media to email, I think those email days are very much on the way out and really focusing on our push notification strategy and just having a very sticky product that people going to keep coming into naturally to check. That's going to be the best way to really thinking about increasing sales on low-selling shows. I think it was also a really interesting summer for people just being very honest about their ticket sales. Like, there were literally artists just coming out and saying, you know what? We're canceling these shows. We haven't sold enough tickets. Like, that was kind of new. I think people haven't been that straight up before, but that was definitely happening a bit this summer. And I think that it was a hard summer for lots of artists and lots of events and also some people had some huge success. So it's definitely a kind of uncertain time still, only obviously one year or so out of COVID and shows being back. I think that people are still feeling some of that after effects. There was a, obviously, huge rebound last summer that we really felt here as we were putting together the team still, and then suddenly we had all these venues turning on and using the product for the first time. So that was an interesting experience. But this summer I think things kind of bounced the other way a little bit, and we're going to hit a steadier stride coming into the end of the year, and I think next year is one that people are going to find easier to plan for, hopefully. 

[00:40:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I bet. And I think that we saw a few things happen this summer. As you mentioned, there was some success, but I think it definitely was a bit subject to that power law, right, where the folks at the top were able to sell out and have their tickets sell for whatever the dynamic pricing set them at. And then a lot of the artists that were either your middle class of artists or emerging definitely struggled. But one area that I do see huge amount of opportunity is Latin America and in our Trapital Culture Report 2022, we talked a lot about how much growth Latin Music has had. Of course, Bad Bunny, but there's many of other artists as well. What does your Latin American strategy look like for DICE? 

[00:41:11] Russ Tannen: I saw that in your report and, yeah, it totally reflected what we have been seeing as well, actually pulled the stats to share with you as well as you've done such great work. So it was fun to kind of pull something back. So Latin ticket sales for us increased nine times in the past year, so, 829% 2022 to 2021. And Latin events listed on DICE have quadrupled 2022 from 2021. So we are absolutely seeing the same. It's obviously huge. We've been working with people like the Paramount in LA and for a long time, been working with lots of Latin artists. We just did a show last year with Karol G at United Palace, with the Cuco show I mentioned, we did Bad Gyal in Spain. And also we haven't touched on it yet in this interview, but last year we bought Boiler Room, and they've also had a lot of success with Latin and Reggaeton programming, and worked with many artists, especially at Primavera Sound in Barcelona, which was another one of the festivals we work with where we had Boiler on stage this year. And they had this amazing program there, which included lots of Latin acts. So I think that, yeah, like, I think the whole industry's feeling it. I think it's super exciting. I think it's so cool. And I think that people are still discovering a lot of this incredible talent, and it just feels like a nice moment to have that exposure. I think for us more on the venue side. We're also doing this big push into Miami, and we just signed our first venues in Miami. And we're really excited about building that up there. And we just signed Club Space there, but there's many, many more venues there that we're looking to sign. So yeah, I think this is just like an interesting time. We're probably a little bit further away from actually launching in Latin America itself. But, you know, our partners Primavera Sound are just doing, over the next couple of months, are doing their first festivals down there, which are selling really well. Like, they're going to be really, really well. So definitely got my eye on maybe trying to make it down for one of those and checking it out. But yeah, it feels exciting, doesn't it? 

[00:42:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it definitely does. 9x is impressive, and it's especially impressive because I think that a lot of the folks in the music industry are seeing the top line numbers on Latin, and they may assume, okay, well, yes, the Bad Bunny effect, his album is dominating. The difference for you all though is that you don't have artists that are like the Bad Bunny level. Well, I know you're working with them, but since you're primarily focused on that 200 to 10,000 capacity, it means that you're seeing this at that level, too. And that says, and I think that should instill a lot of confidence that this isn't just one or two artists that are pulling up everything. This is an entire movement. 

[00:43:30] Russ Tannen: It's a really good point. Yeah. I think that's a really nice way to look at that data. And that's, yeah, it's absolutely what we're seeing and I think definitely it's hitting that point where it's not just that kind of trickle-down effect, but it's also like this bottom-up ground swell of artists coming through. So, yeah, that's definitely the right way to think about that, I think, that's awesome. 

[00:43:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think that Africa, with what's happening with afro beats and some of the other sub-genres there, that's next up. It's only going to, I mean, it's already happening, but it's only a matter of time. 

[00:43:58] Russ Tannen: It's happening, yeah, yeah. 

[00:43:59] Dan Runcie: You know, we see those numbers start to have even bigger and bigger market share. 

[00:44:03] Russ Tannen: Yeah, it gets me excited 'cause we're, you know, it takes so much every time we launch into a new country, and we kind of have to do it kind of one by one, and it's a big focus. But we really want to build DICE into being a global business and be truly global. And that doesn't mean just the kind of markets that have this really established touring infrastructure, all these other things. We want to be everywhere and explore all of these different genres and cultures in a way that makes sense. And, yeah, we're excited to be everywhere in the next few years. But in the meantime, yeah, we are helping, you know, do what we can to support all different types of music and sub genres of music and subcultures within music, and we just keep an eye on what we think the next big thing is going to be as well. 

[00:44:42] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Well, Russ, this has been great. Before we let you go though, what's one big thing that's on your radar for DICE that you're focusing on for 2023? 

[00:44:52] Russ Tannen: I think for us the big thing for us next year is really going to be expanding across the rest of the country here. We are really excited to be in tons of cities, and there's so many amazing music cities in the US as you well know. And we're excited to keep building and be everywhere because we want to be sat having conversations with artists where we can talk about doing a full US tour with them, playing all in venues that we work with, and helping them to plan how to grow across the country. So that's going to be the big push for next year. 

[00:45:22] Dan Runcie: Nice. Exciting stuff. All right. Well, if people want to follow along with DICE and if they want to set up their own profile, where do they go? 

[00:45:30] Russ Tannen: They can go straight to dice.fm. So that's the best place if you want to partner with us, if you want to get in touch with the arts development team, if you are a promoter or a venue that wants to work with us, everything's there. If you want to buy tickets and play around with the app, then head to, you know, the app store, iOS, Android, and download the app and have a play around with it. And yeah, let us know what you think. And people are more than welcome to get in touch with me directly as well. So it's just russ@dice.fm and they can email me directly. It's great. 

[00:45:57] Dan Runcie: Nice. Sounds good. And yeah, the next time that Kanye throws one of these impromptu listening parties or these Wyoming get-togethers, I'll look to see if I see that DICE redirect. 

[00:46:09] Russ Tannen: Yeah, oh, well, I'll let you know if it's going to happen. I'll give you the heads-up. 

[00:46:12] Dan Runcie: Right. Sounds good. Thanks again, Russ. It's a pleasure. 

[00:46:14] Russ Tannen: Thanks so much, Dan. Thanks.

[00:46:18] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2845 no How HitPiece Rebounded and Relaunched After Controversy https://www.trapital.com/podcast Rory Felton has spent most of his past two decades in music being pro-artist. He developed talent and sold millions of records under his Militia Group label that he co-founded and eventually sold to Sony. In the early days of social media, Rory worked with Top 40 artists and majors to monetize on these new platforms. That’s why it was ironic that Rory was recently criticized for being anti-artist.  Rory founded HitPiece two years ago. HitPiece is an NFT marketplace focused solely on music collections. While in beta earlier this year, unauthorized NFTs from big-name artists became available for purchase on HitPiece. HitPiece was hit with wide-spread backlash from artists, the RIAA, and many others for copyright infringement. The company quickly went dark while the team recalibrated its business. Months later, HitPiece has now re-launched. This time with strictly-authenticated collections on-site from rising artists like ATL Jacob, Pyrex Whippa, and proven commodities such as Rick Ross. A metaverse add-on is also in the works to virtually display purchased NFTs. In many ways, the industry-wide blowback changed both Rory and HitPiece. The company’s intent has stayed consistent from the get-go: to make NFTs easy for both artists and fans. Rory joined me on the show to cover what went wrong with HitPiece earlier this year, why this relaunch is different, and the opportunities and challenges NFTs have inside the music industry. Here’s everything we covered: [2:58] Rory’s two decades in the industry pre-HitPiece [6:07] “Best time in human history to be an artist”  [9:19] What went wrong with HitPiece’s beta release [13:33] Re-gaining industry trust after the backlash  [16:22] Did HitPiece consider rebranding? [19:12] How HitPiece built a collection with rising star ATL Jacob [20:27] Web3 co-existing with industry, not replacing it [27:34] Building out a music-centric metaverse  [33:32] How HitPiece will compete against Facebook, Opensea, and other big players [35:57] Types of NFT collections on HitPiece [39:00] How to win the music industry in 2022 and onward  [43:17] HitPiece plans for 2023 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Rory Felton, @Roryfelton   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Rory Felton: We think this space is for everyone. And we think that the smallest artists on the planet can actually benefit from Web 3.0 in a way that maybe streaming isn't changing the game for them right now. For instance, we've worked with baby developing artists that are making more money from Web 3.0 in one launch of an NFT collection than they would over two to three months from streaming. In general, we all think music's the coolest thing in the world. And so we want to revalue it in a way that maybe NFTs allow us to that technology hasn't enabled in the past. [00:00:40] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:60] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Rory Felton. He is the co-founder and CEO of HitPiece, a company that's bringing artists and fans together through NFTs in real life experiences, metaverse experiences and more. HitPiece is one of our sponsors this quarter for Trapital, and I wanted to have this conversation because Rory and HitPiece have had a very interesting past couple of months. Back in February, they launched a platform, but there was a ton of controversy surrounding it because a lot of artists had their music and their NFTs for sale on the platform without their consent, and understandably so, it created a bunch of frustration and news around some of the consent around NFTs, some of the perception around the space overall and how that impacted Rory and the team. So in this conversation, we talked about it. We talked about how that happened, why it happened, and what Roy and the team are doing now moving forward for that not to happen in the future. And then we talked about what does HitPiece look like now moving forward, what are the opportunities more broadly for Web 3.0 companies in music, what are some of the challenges, what are some of the artists that they're working with now, like ATL Jacob, who just signed with Republic Records. So we talked about that, and Rory has a ton of experience in the music industry, even before HitPiece. So we talked about how that shapes his current strategy and what he thinks successful look like, not just for HitPiece, but for the overall industry moving forward. Great conversation and tons of insights, and especially for a lot of the founders that have built stuff messed up and want to hear what it's like to keep things going. This is a good one to listen to. Here's my chat with Rory.  [00:02:39] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we are joined by Rory Felton, who is the co-founder and CEO of HitPiece. But before we talk about HitPiece or anything like that, I know you've worked in music for a number of years and you've had a few different hats in this industry. What attracted you to the space early on?  [00:02:58] Rory Felton: Oh, man. So when I was 15, I started playing music and I learned pretty quickly that I really couldn't write songs very well. So when I was 16, I started putting on local shows for artists booking regional acts, and that naturally turned into putting out records for artists. And in the nineties, we were manufacturing CDs, so I actually learned the process of printing, shipping it to a factory, calling distributors, trying to get them to ship out our CDs to retailers. And that's how I started. In 2000, I moved out to LA to go to school at SC, was a little bored and started another record label. Our first few records did quite well. I think our first record almost went gold, and so that created enough revenue to really fund the company and grow that record label. And for the next 10 years, we ended up selling millions of records. I developed dozens of artists, felt really proud of what we accomplished. Sony Music later invested in the company and later acquired the major artists that I worked And I took a breather for a moment because working with artists can be a lot of work and can be emotional and and challenging in so many ways, but also fun and exciting. And I ended up finding a real passion for the technology side of the music industry. I really wanted to have sort of a macro impact on the industry in helping artists create new technologies to connect with their fan base, develop new business models. And I saw, sort of saw the old record company structure or record deal structure is sort of a little bit antiquated, and there are so many technologies here that could allow artists to directly connect with their fans and connect and create new and unique revenue streams. And so I spent several years in the early 2010s helping top 40 artists sell music and merchandise in stream on social media like Gaga, Green Day, Snoop Dog, Tim McGraw, A$AP Rocky, all the major labels. And I did a couple years overseas on a volunteer trip and then came back to the music space really on artist management initially, but also in blockchain. I bought Bitcoin in 2014 and was always really curious about blockchain's application to the music space. And in 2018 I co-wrote a white paper on digital collectibles for artists and could not get anyone's attention back then on this space and the idea of fans buying digital merchandise from artists and connecting with them and the idea of an artist creating a layer of community ownership and what they were doing. And then obviously fast forward a couple of years, the NFT space, that specific protocol has really taken off four creatives and four artists. And I decided to jump in full time to apply this innovation to the music industry 'cause I saw so many opportunities for artists to take advantage of it. [00:05:43] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And one thing there before we get to the HitPiece part of it where you are today, selling your record label and everything there to Sony, what is it like watching the current movement now with other record labels being bought up by other record labels, especially the majors or just some of the catalog purchases there? Because I'm sure you did this in a very different market than what we're seeing now.  [00:06:07] Rory Felton: Yeah, so a lot of people don't remember this, but in 2006 to like 2011, it was really hairy for the record industry. There were a lot of unknowns. Downloading was here, digital like iTunes and its competitors, however, streaming as a paid streaming format really hadn't taken off or really been fully established. And so you had these massive problems still with file sharing and people just assuming music was free, right? And just downloading it without paying for it from all sorts of websites. And so there was this moment, an era where like, gosh, golly, we don't know if these major labels are really going to figure it out. And kudos to them, they struck some really savvy deals and made streaming something that really, really worked. So today's era has been amazing. I get really excited for artists that are able to have huge liquidity opportunities if they've built a catalog over their lifetime. And then also I get really excited just as more opportunities to finance your career than there ever have been. You can now borrow against your catalog. You can borrow against your master rights or publishing rights to fund something you want to do moving forward. You could never do that 10 or 15 years ago. So you have players like that in this space. You have distributors in this space, almost playing like record labels and advancing monies to artists, but allowing artists to keep their masters. And then you have record labels sort of playing as distributors. And so you have all these middle men kind of playing as different roles. And I think it's great 'cause artists have more opportunity now than they've ever been. I've been saying this for a few years. It is the best time in human history to be a music artist. It was so hard in the nineties and so hard in the early 2000s to stand out, and now even though we are in some economic challenges right now, and just the macro economy, it's still really the best time in human history to be a music artist.  [00:07:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's generally where I land with this too. I know that there's a lot of people that have a bit of the nostalgia and yearning for being able to sell CDs and being able to make the money off of CDs, but it was still a market that had tons of gatekeepers. And even without Napster, I still think that there would be a lot of challenges 'cause there were a bunch of CD sales that were of bad catalog that weren't exactly of new things, but we could go all day talking about that. But it was a fascinating time for sure. But fast forwarding a few years though, with HitPiece, of course you have the idea and you see the opportunity to be able to make it easier for artists to monetize and take advantage of what's here. And I know that earlier this year, the launch day didn't go the way that you had wanted it to. And there was a lot of press and some negative things written about just the intent and where you all were trying to go. And I know that there are also a few artists too, whether it's like Jack Antonoff and a few others that had some complaints about how it went down and after reading a few of those, I definitely saw some of the responses and from your perspective as well, but I never really got a good, clear sense for what was the . Intent and what would this have looked like if the launch had went as well as it could have, so it'd be great to hear a little bit about that, because I feel that's the part that was a little bit missing in some of the discussions about what had happened.  [00:09:19] Rory Felton: Yeah. So first and foremost, I really believe in innovation, and I really believe in enriching artists, and artists being able to control their music and what they're doing. And so we were looking at this space and thinking about like, man, if I put on my music fan hat, what's the ideal experience I want as a music fan? What would I love to have more than anything? And platforms like Spotify and Apple Music has sort of trained us to feel like everything could be in one place. And so we put together this idea to create an experiment where we tried to show artists and labels and rights holders, hey, this is what the future could look like. Here's sort of this private game experience that we think would be really fun to onboard a huge number of people into this space very quickly and create a massive revenue stream for artists and rights holders. And where we really messed up is we failed to put the proper guardrails around it to where too much of it was public too fast. And that was something that we definitely messed up with. We were having active discussions with hundreds of artists, managers, major record companies. We had showed them what we're doing. Hey, what do you think of this experience we're creating? And all the feedback that we received was highly positive. Everyone was really excited about this potential future for a platform that could turn on a whole new revenue stream for them without a lot of work. One thing I've experienced as a manager and a record company founder is that artists are so busy. They're in the studio making music all the time. They have to go on tour, they have to make content for social media all the time right now. They're so busy doing all these things you don't want to add just another thing to their plate. And so we've always tried to make it, what's the easiest way for them to onboard into a new space without having to create a huge amount of work for them? So that was our intent. Clearly, we failed to have the proper guard rails around it. And we took down the beta after a few weeks. And there were obviously some artists that expressed some frustration with it. And since then, we've had conversations with hundreds of artists and labels and managers and industry leaders, sharing with them how we feel about this space, what we think is coming, and the overall sediment has been really about excitement and enthusiasm. about what's coming in this space and the opportunities that are being created for artists and rights holders in this space.  [00:11:39] Dan Runcie: Got it. So if I'm understanding correctly, it's like you were trying to show, okay, this is what it could look like. Let's give you an example of what this could look like. Like, if your Taylor Swift, like this is a type of revenue stream that you could unlock, but the presentation of it was more so, hey, here's where you can buy Taylor Swift's, you know, access to her likeness or access to her music. And you were trying to more so show a demo as opposed to an actual marketplace. Do I have that right?  [00:12:07] Rory Felton: Yeah, it was definitely a live demo. There was no music used on the website. As a music rights holder myself, as someone that's worked with artists for decades, we would never utilize music in a way that was infringing on their rights or unapproved in any way. And that's something that I think really got lost in the storm of it all is the fact that there was no music on the website. We had some marketing language on the website, and again, we've looked at this as a beta experiment for a small audience. It was by no means built or intended to be exposed to the world at large. But we did have some language on the website that was not fully fleshed out at the time, again, like many beta experiments are.  [00:12:49] Dan Runcie: So was part of it also as well that the beta was meant to be a bit of a closed opportunity, but then it leaked, or then it got out?  [00:12:58] Rory Felton: It was public and that was an error on our end. You know, we failed to have the guardrails built around to cut off certain sections or functions of the website that shouldn't have been made public. [00:13:08] Dan Runcie: Got it. Okay. So since then, how has it been having a lot of these conversations? 'cause obviously you were able to drum up a bunch of support leading up to February and you still had plenty of connections now with artists that we'll get into soon. But what was it like having those conversations, whether it's with labels or others where you're trying to communicate not just what happened but also build up a bit of trust given the impact? [00:13:33] Rory Felton: Yeah. What we found is that, well, having been in this industry for two decades, I have a huge number of relationships from, you know, the tops of the major record companies, major publishers to many, many, many managers of both developing artists and some of the biggest artists in the world. And they know me, right, so they knew my heart, they knew where I was coming from, and I just was able to be honest with them, and say, look, we moved a little too fast here. We built this product a little too fast without fully flushing out where we should put certain guardrails in place, and the response was, hey, look, we get it, no problem. We're looking for solutions in this space. We need easy ways to launch collections to audiences that might want to be interested in this. And right now everything on the market feels a little too complicated, right? NFTs and Web 3.0, it feels nerdy and it feels complex. And I think a lot of the early people in this space may have made it that way on purpose so that there feels like there's a level of like seniority or gatekeeping to it. And we've approached this and been like, no, this is actually pretty simple. This is actually making what has existed in the world of music already, such as VIP experiences, and fan clubs, and even, like, DRM music, and it's creating it on a layer of new technology that actually gives more ownership to fans and actually deepens relationships between artists and fans. And so that response has been really exciting and I think that's what's contributed to us being able to onboard the large volume of artists that we have onboarded so far and continue to have exciting conversations every single day with folks across this space.  [00:15:14] Dan Runcie: Have there been any lingering impacts since then? Like, obviously there's the initial response and things have happened. But since you've relaunched. And it does seem like, as you mentioned, you still are stable of artists and there are a bunch of folks that you're working with but are there any lingering impacts from what had happened?  [00:15:30] Rory Felton: I would say there's probably still some artists that just don't want to have anything to do with the NFT space. I think that in general, there's still a lot of misunderstanding around what Web 3.0 is and what it can enable, and there seems to, generally speaking, a level of negative sentiment towards NFTs in some categories of the music industry. But that seems to be sort of a blanket feeling or sentiment towards NFTs, not necessarily what we're doing. [00:15:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I've heard that from, was just talking to a few people about this earlier this week, and we've heard it as well, just the polarizing nature of it that's bigger than HitPiece. And I think it's something for a lot of companies to navigate, but it's not necessarily at one company itself. But, I guess, leading up to the relaunch recently, were there any talks at all about rebranding or anything like that? 'Cause obviously I know that staying with the name is also a statement in itself.  [00:16:22] Rory Felton: Yeah, clearly, we thought about every sort of path we could take. You know, we even thought like, do we want to do this? Like, is this worth the battle, right? And what we decided at the end of the day was, look, some folks thought we were doing something we were not doing at all. Our intent was completely misconstrued, and we felt like if we were to shut it all down and say, you know, good night. It's almost like the people that were creating this narrative would've won or that narrative would've become true, right? In our hearts, in our feeling, and everyone at the company that's at the company that was experienced all that, we all felt together, like, look, this isn't what we are doing. This isn't what we're all about. Like, we should stick with it and see this through because we felt like the brand was now very well known for better or worse, and it's up to us to sort of, to see it through and show to the world that, no, this isn't what we were trying to do. We're actually making something amazing, we think, for artists and so far, in the collections that we've launched has done really well for the artists that we've worked with. So that's what led to our decision to stick with the brand and keep going. We could have posited to a whole other brand, but everyone would just say, oh, those are the same folks that did this. So what would be the point of that? Because it's still me. Unlike a lot of people in this space, I've never been anonymous, right? I've always been completely public with who I am. HitPiece was on my LinkedIn, on my branding since early last year. I didn't hide from any of this. I engaged with anyone that wanted to have a conversation and still will. So it's not in our nature to hide or to run away. We think that Web 3.0 is still a huge game changer for both developing and establishing artists, and we want to provide incredible solutions for artists.  [00:18:10] Dan Runcie: And what was the hardest part for you personally during all of this, as the founder, as the leader of the organization, but also as a human being dealing with the fallout and just trying to keep things moving? [00:18:22] Rory Felton: Oh gosh. I think for a little bit, like, you know, personally I'm a father. I'm a husband, and so for me, it's just not letting what some people in social media or in the media might say about me impact who I know I am and who I am to my family. First and foremost, that's always most important to me. So that was probably the biggest challenge and, you know, clearly, it's not something that we wanted to happen, but we're really excited and bullish on the future right now.  [00:18:48] Dan Runcie: For sure. And I think you have a lot of reasons, too. One of the artists that you have, ATL Jacob recently signed a deal with Republic Records. And I think he's someone who's definitely been rising quite a bit, and I assume that's a partnership that you are able to land in the most recent months. So what did that look like and what has it been like working alongside someone like him and then seeing the growth continue? [00:19:12] Rory Felton: Yeah, Jacob was amazing. We are so blessed to really have just the perfect time to connect and meet him and hear about what he thought about this space, and what he wanted to do, and had that sort of build a collection together that really made sense for his brand and offer value to his super fans that really you can't get any other way. And so that's what we're really excited about. We, of course, knew he was in conversations with major labels at the time and knew something would happen in that space. We just feel honored and privileged that we get to be his partner for Web 3.0 because he's clearly an incredible talent that's had huge success on the producing side in the last couple of years, and I think we're going to see him break out as an artist over the next year and reach completely new milestones as well in his career. [00:19:57] Dan Runcie: And what was it like for what he was able to do specifically on HitPiece? 'Cause I think a lot of people that see artists, they understand what it's like to be on a major label, but from an economic standpoint, like what they were able to do with a platform like yours, there still is a bit of questions, and this honestly may lead to some of the confusion some artists may have about NFTs, Web 3.0 in general, so obviously you may not be able to share all the details, but, like, what did things look like for him right now with what you've all been able to work on and what he's released, and what that ends up looking like for him?  [00:20:27] Rory Felton: Yeah, so he's building a beautiful collection of art that's going to be completely collectible, and those tokens will be connected to incredible in real-life experiences. So some of those tokens can be redeemed for a studio session with ATL Jacob. So rather than, typically in the music industry, right, you have to go through a manager or you have to go through a record company. You have to go through gatekeepers to get to someone on Jacob's level. Here we're saying, no, let's break down all the barriers and say, actually through Web 3.0, you can have an incredible experience, and you could work with, you know, a producer that spends six months at the number one rap producer chart on Billboard. Like, you can actually work with them and make a record together, right? Experiences like that we think are incredible, exclusive merchandising items. And being able to essentially build a really connected VIP club of sorts that will get you access to experiences, to events, to really in- person, one on one time with these artists and producers that people love. You know, this is what I think Web 3.0 is all about. It's creating experiences that are unparalleled in other parts of the music industry.  [00:21:40] Dan Runcie: So given those experiences, and I think those are definitely things that fans and everything value and things that he could likely build a career standalone on. Is there any particular question or thought about when an artist-producer like him goes in, does a deal with a major label as a bit of it like, oh, well why did you need to do that? Like, you could have continued working here, like, part of the promise is getting more inherent value for the work itself. Was there any tension there at all with him or even with some of the other artists?  [00:22:11] Rory Felton: No, because every artist is different, and every artist gets different types of opportunities. And to me, Web 3.0 is not about being in Web 3.0 only and forgetting about the rest of the industry. It's not like you release your content or your music only as NFT and you don't do streaming, right? It's not like you do that only and you don't go on tour, or you don't sync your music to film and TV, or you don't do brand partnerships. It's just one part of the bigger puzzle of connecting with fans and connecting with bigger audiences. I think this huge opportunity for artists to connect with fans through Web 3.0 while also doing partnerships on the record side that they want to do that work best for them and their brand. For Jacob specifically, he has a whole record label, Wicked Money Family, that he can do. He can sign new artists, too, and they all can go through this bigger system. That's not something that not every artist can just do on their own, right, being able to plug into a bigger system is great for him. What it does do is it may limit what type of content an artist can mint as an NFT on their own, such as if you're in an exclusive recording contract, it may limit or prohibit what specifically you can do with music. But those are always open discussions, and every single recording contract is unique and specific and different, and provide artists and labels with all sorts of different rights. [00:23:35] Dan Runcie: Got it. So for someone like him, and I guess as well thinking about how you're building the business, I do feel like your stance essentially is that a company like HitPiece can work, and they don't necessarily have to be exclusively here. They could work with majors, they could work with others. Do you feel like that mentality is similar to other founders you may talk to in Web 3.0 or with NFTs? Because some of the folks I talk to, there's a bit more of that dogmatic approach where the purpose of our platform is that you don't need to do that.  [00:24:08] Rory Felton: Yeah. So first and foremost, every partnership we have with an artist is non-exclusive. They could do a collection with us and go to a collection with anyone else or on their own using their own software at any time. That's something that I believe in. I believe in, like, we're not here to be an exclusive partner in any way. So I believe in artist freedom. Artists should have the freedom to do a record deal if they want to. Artists should also have the freedom to say, hey, look, I'm going to stay independent. I'm going to build up a balance sheet of masters and publishing that I own, and I'm going to leverage that in the way that I want to. I think every path is different for each artist and some work for others, and some don't work for others. And I've seen artists stay independent, build balance sheets of masters, and publish they own, and be tremendously successful. They build these multimillion-dollar businesses that they can operate and function like their own business. And then at the same time, that can just build up their leverage for if a major label wants to do a deal with them, they're saying, hey, look, my business is already doing millions of dollars a year. If you want to be in business with my business, you've gotta make it worth my while. To me, it's about, I think Web 3.0 increases leverage for artists if they embrace it and engage that community. But by no means would I look at it as a dogmatic Web 3.0 anti-record company approach. I don't think that's it at all. I think we're already seeing major labels enter Web 3.0 and allow their artists to try things in Web 3.0 that I think is really exciting. And every conversation I have with major labels and people at those companies is it's curiosity, it's intriguing, it's fun. They are by no means looking at it as a do-or-die or like you said, a dogmatic approach. I come from the music industry. I think maybe some other founders in this space don't have two decades of music experience, and so they're wanting to disrupt an industry that they think needs disruption. Whereas I know all these, all my friends that work at labels or at management companies, I mean, they bleed for artists. They put their heart and soul into trying to break new artists, and these are the people you want to be a part of your business, right? You don't want to just alienate them and cut them off. That being said, historically, some record deals have been a little unfair for the artists, right? And I'm not trying to say that that's not the case, but I think innovation like Web 3.0 is continuing to increase artist leverage and continuing to give them more options. More options is really what it's all about.  [00:26:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think even the point that you mentioned at the beginning of the conversation, just your stance on streaming itself and what it unlocked for the business, that is a bit more of that holistic perspective as opposed to some others that, you know, I think the belief that music should have inherent value, which it should. I think it's a bit of that dichotomy, and to be honest, you hear less of that from the record labels with, most of the time, it maybe from some of the founders and folks outside of the industry. But it's a fascinating time. It's a fascinating time. And I know that with you, you're not just thinking about NFTs and things minting for HitPiece, you're also having a metaverse, you have the Lounge and having that as an opportunity for artists, and I know that's something that's continuing developing as well. What does that look like and what does that opportunity look like for artists?  [00:27:34] Rory Felton: Yeah, so one, we realized there's a small but growing population of people that love to collect music as NFT format. I think of NFT as it applies to audio music as a new format, just like there was vinyl, there was downloads, there was streaming. NFT is sort of a new type of format for music, and there wasn't really a centralized place to play all your music. There are a couple of apps butting up that allow you to sort of plug into your wallet and play your music collection. We wanted to create a space that allowed a collector to display NFTs that they're collecting from music artists on the wall, but also put them on a record shelf if they're music NFTs and allow people, allow them to come in and play their own music, allow other people to come into a fans room and play their music. I've seen that a lot of these metaverse spaces that fans are using to share their NFTs are almost like part business card part, like, showing off and bragging to their friends and their community what they own, what they collect. It reminds me a lot as being a teenager of collecting CDs and records that were hard to find from really, really new artists and sort of bragging with your friends that you got to them earlier than they did. And we wanted to sort of mimic this experience in a really cool, beautiful, metaverse space and also be a space that artists could brand and create their own version of, as well as invite their VIP community to be a part of, be it virtual record listening parties or virtual tour kickoffs where they could display or present new music. One functionality we have that artists are taking advantage of is token-gated releases. So they might release regular releases like they always do but put out maybe a limited edition mixtape that is only available to people who buy an NFT to access it. And so you go into the Lounge, our system reads that you have that NFT in your wallet and it unlocks access to music that you wouldn't otherwise have. That doesn't just have to be music. It can be all sorts of content. So the idea is you're rewarding your most engaged community token holders with really cool experiences. We speak with artists that want to create experiences that get updated every single month, so keeps fans coming back to this space that they almost treat like a social media platform or like a website, but the artist gets to control it entirely themselves. [00:29:58] Dan Runcie: I feel like the fan piece of this is the unique piece of this, and I know that's a bit of the broader conversations that people have had about the metaverse, but being able to have that type of way to actually physically show what you have, and I think this is a piece that was missing a bit from, I'll call it the first stage of the NFT boom, right? We saw a lot of people changing their profile picks, but ultimately, how do you create the opportunity for people to have some type of visual that you can see, right? Like, people are buying vinyls right now. People want to be able to have those vinyls visible or no different than buying DVDs or VHS tapes back in the day. Part of it was the medium itself, but you also, it was a statement of who you are. Having some type of collection that can show that I think it's valuable, plus all of the exclusive perks that they can get from their favorite artist or from their type of experiences. I do think that that is something that a lot of fans would value, assuming that it can be somewhere where the people that they want to see those things also are engaged in. [00:30:59] Rory Felton: Yeah, we see there's millions of people around the world that build up massive record collections on their wall. And when you go into their house, it's often the main feature of their house is their record collection. And oftentimes, that's tied to a really high-end audio system as well, depending on where you're at and your lifestyle, right? And we wanted to sort of create that experience for anyone or everyone in the metaverse space. And so that's what the Lounge is built around, is sort of to cater to that type of collector, if you will. I think we're still very early in the Web 3.0 NFT space, clearly with where the economy's at. I think we're going to start to see some huge growth over the next year or two, but we wanted to build these tools now for people so that when more and more people start to come into this space every month, every quarter, they're already ready for them to sort of plug into. And in fact, in a certain sense, it provides more utility for all NFTs. So you could buy music NFTs anywhere you want to on the internet and be able to pull them into this Lounge space we've created for them to perform, to play, and to share with their friends and their community. [00:32:05] Dan Runcie: So this leads me to the age-old question I'm sure every venture capitalist asks at some point, how do you compete this against Facebook or Meta and their offering to eventually try to do this similar type of thing? But obviously, you have a more of a specific community. But I do know that with a lot of the different types of metaverse experiences, that type of thought is something that's likely in the back of the minds for a lot of founders. [00:32:30] Rory Felton: I think that there's clearly dozens of metaverse spaces that already exist. We're not necessarily looking to create an entire universe. We just want to create experiences and artist-branded experiences. And I think potentially we see a future where these artist-branded virtual slash metaverse experiences can be interoperable with a metaverse space that Meta is building or with the other ones that exist right now, such as Sandbox and Decentraland. We, of course, being a blockchain-based company, we believe in decentralization. We think that that's a value to be recognized and to be held up. And so if we continue to see other metaverse spaces built on the same or similar blockchains, I think we're going to see them be interoperable in new ways that may currently just not exist yet.  [00:33:22] Dan Runcie: And would the same type of logic apply as well for the marketplace that you all have, given folks like OpenSea or some of the other broader platforms?  [00:33:32] Rory Felton: So our big differentiator from a platform like OpenSea is we only allow authenticated artists to mint NFTs in our platform. One of the big challenges I see with some of the secondary-focused NFT marketplaces is that it's a wild west still. There's an insane amount of content that infringes on other people's rights that use all sorts of artists' name, image, like this audio without any sort of permission, right? And unlike a lot of people in this space or some people in this space, we actually believe in copyright. We think that's really valuable for artists and artists investors, and we really wanted to make sure that we prevent it as much as possible, people minting content that they didn't control through our platform. And so when fans or collectors come to HitPiece.com, they can feel assured that everything on our platform is authentic, is real, is coming from the artist that says it's coming from. And that's also why we were the first NFT company to integrate with Audible Magic. Audible Magic allows us to scan every single piece of audio file that gets uploaded to HitPiece to be minted as an NFT. And we test that against their massive database of over a hundred million songs to see if that song has been registered previously or as a copyrighted work from a record company or an artist. And we've already been able to say, hang on, that song's copyright. We need to confirm whether this artist actually controls the copyright of this audio file. And so we want to make sure that only the authenticated parties, the owners of works are actually able to mint NFTs of their creative content through HitPiece. So that's a big difference I see versus like the secondary markets of the world. But we also think ours is a little bit more just music-focused, right? Music NFTs are a little different than PFP projects or artwork NFTs, and so it really requires a different experience than maybe what some of the secondary markets that appeal to every one offer, if that makes sense. [00:35:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. And I assume that some of the guardrails there to make sure that things are authenticated, to make sure it has the right copyright and licensing, also tie back to ensuring that what had happened back in February doesn't happen again. So part of that authentication, I'm sure likely may slow down some of the process, but it is how you ensure that everything that is there and what is transparent and seen is ultimately what you're trying to actually sell.  [00:35:57] Rory Felton: Yeah. I don't think an experience that we've built, that you can go to HitPiece.com and see right now really exists anywhere else, and we've really tried to focus on making, one, authenticated protecting rights holders. And two, just make it super simple and easy for both artists who are new to this space that may not fully understand all the language and this new terminology that's come around, make it super easy for them to create their own collections and start minting NFTs with their creative content. And then also just make it super easy for music fans, you know, that haven't purchased an NFT to be able to collect one. I would say that really a small, small number of music fans overall have still entered Web 3.0 or acquired an NFT, be it for free or purchase, and there's still a huge amount of education that platforms like ourselves need to do and others about how to onboard into this space. [00:36:52] Dan Runcie: So for you all, specifically, with the folks you have on board before and up to this point, is ATL Jacob, is he the most successful artist or the artist that's made the most money on the platform so far?  [00:37:04] Rory Felton: So ATL Jacob's collection has not launched yet. We have launched a variety of collections from artists like Surf, and we have a couple of collections dropping tomorrow. This interview, of course, will be out after this date. From King Midas, who's a Baltimore artist, and from Pyrex Whippa, who's a multi-platinum producer slash artist, a part of the 808 Mafia. He's worked with artists like Future, Juice WRLD, DaBaby. And his collection also involves granting people rights to collaborate with him in the studio. Some actually get a limited-edition skateboard from him. And also some of them actually get a limited edition beat kit from him as well. So there's all these cool, both digital and in real-life experiences, tied to token ownership, which we believe in.  [00:37:50] Dan Runcie: No, that's solid.  [00:37:51] Rory Felton: But beyond those, we do have some other, like, multi-platinum slash diamond level music artists, Grammy-nominated artists that we're looking to announce really, really soon. [00:38:02] Dan Runcie: Any hints as to who they may be?  [00:38:05] Rory Felton: I'll just say we have a lot of love for Atlanta.  [00:38:08] Dan Runcie: Okay.  [00:38:08] Rory Felton: Atlanta moves the culture. Atlanta's, like, where my heart is. I love going to Atlanta. I think everyone in Atlanta is just coming. Being in LA for 20 years, like Atlanta's so nice. You have that southern hospitality, but you have that hustle and that combination of both. Like, I just love being in Atlanta. I love the vibe of Atlanta.  [00:38:25] Dan Runcie: All right. We'll definitely look out for that one, for sure. Thinking about the company and hearing how you're building it, though, it does make me think about this article that you had written a couple of years back. I think it was an article you posted on LinkedIn actually is like, How to Win the Music Industry of 2019-2025, and you're describing what the type of company would look like and what type of things they need to have in place. And now that we're a couple of years past that, what are you seeing in the industry now, and is there any specific company that you think is checking all those boxes?  [00:39:00] Rory Felton: Oh, man. I think when I wrote that, it was one of those, like late night, man, why doesn't this company exist? You know, if I had a hundred million dollars, this is what I would do, right? And it's interesting, I see companies doing bits and pieces of that, and what's fascinating is like I sometimes forget that I published that article, and I've even had, you know, investors and venture capital people reach out, nothing to do with HitPiece. They're just really curious about what I wrote, and they're like, this is it. How do we do this? And it's been fascinating to see that piece impact, if you will. No one's doing all of that, but I'll gladly compliment folks that I think are moving in that direction. United Masters and what Steve Stoute built, I think, is incredible. If you would've told me several years ago that someone could enter the music distribution space with a similar offering to other platforms out there, I never would've thought someone could truly compete. But kudos to him and his team, they've completely proved me, and I'll think a lot of people wrong. They've made a huge impact in, again, creating more opportunities for artists who can own their own content and not necessarily feel like they're stuck to have to do the traditional record deal. I think what they're doing is pretty amazing. Let's see, who else? I got to give out props to Downtown Music Holdings group. I think they're doing a huge amount of innovation in this space, both on the record side, on the distribution side, and on the publishing side. I'm a huge fan of Songtrust and what they built and that offering. I tell every music artist to work with if they do not have a publishing deal, sign up with Songtrust. It's a super easy admin deal that just creates a great solution that captures money that you just cannot capture any other way. I try to tell every music artist, I'm like, look, if you're writing your own music, you're writing your own songs, you're not going to get all your money that's due to you, just through your PRO. Artists, unfortunately, they're so busy, so much going on, they don't fully understand that. And so it's, like, the artists that I've seen turn on to a platform like Songtrust, they've literally turned on five figures plus in revenue in a quarter because that money is just sitting there if they don't capture it, eventually just goes away, which is really sad. So those are my shout-outs. Those are companies that I think are doing it well. I think with that piece, if I were to critique it now, I think it's a little too broad. There's a little too much going on for one company to do. But I'm a big fan of companies that, you know, believe in artistic freedom and innovation and providing more tools and opportunities for artists while also actually creating real success for them. [00:41:26] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think what sticks out about those two companies is both the partnerships and the fact that there's, you know, overall companies that are tying both of them together, right? So United Masters is obviously tied to the work that Stoute had done with or is currently doing with Translation on the ad side. And then that also informs so many of the partnerships and just how he has been able to help think and expand things there. And then Downtown, specifically how they've been able to just reorganize a few of the things and then restructure to just understand, okay, what could that stack look like. What could it have to have all of these companies underneath, but in this way that feels practical, but not in this way of, you know, a company trying to check every box that's the hottest topic right now.  [00:42:12] Rory Felton: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think companies are wise to, that are established in at scale. They're wise to take their time with Web 3.0 versus jump into it head-on per se. And I would encourage everyone to experiment. I think you can experiment in this space and try new things without having to go completely in. And of course, we're a great solution to experiment with. But there's clearly a variety of opportunities out there to do things. And quite frankly, no one knows exactly how the NFT innovation's going to be utilized in a few years from now, right? We have our hunch. We think it's going to be connected to real-life experiences and real amazing virtual experiences. However, I think there's all sorts of innovation that maybe hasn't even been created yet for its application, such as to ticketing and other categories as well.  [00:43:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah, there's so much more to explore. We're still in the early innings with this. I'm excited to see what's next. But before we wrap things up, let's talk about what's next for you all. What does 2023 look like? What are the big things on the roadmap?  [00:43:17] Rory Felton: Yeah, so as you mentioned, we've been building the Lounge metaverse space to connect artists and fans as well as give fans a great way to display and show off the collections that they own. So that's going to be launching soon. We clearly have some really amazing collections coming up from some really top-tier artists that we're excited to announce really soon as well. And then we fully built out now this completely self-service solution for independent artists to come in and start minting NFTs with their content. We haven't really focused on presenting that or pushing that yet to the independent community at scale. But that's something that we are looking forward to. We felt that it was best, hey, look, we want to establish that there is interest and demand for this space. That's why we focused on more established artists, artists with audiences initially, but really we think this space is for everyone. And we think that the smallest artists on the planet can actually benefit from Web 3.0 in a way that maybe streaming isn't changing the game for them right now. For instance, we've worked with baby developing artists that are making more money from Web 3.0 in one launch of an NFT collection than they would over two to three months from streaming. And I think this again goes back to humanity and society sort of revaluing music. In general, we all think music's the coolest thing in the world. We all think music is the most divine thing that we get to participate in as humans. And so we want to revalue it in a way that maybe NFTs allow us to that technology hasn't enabled in the past. And I think more than ever this concept of a thousand true fans is truer than ever, right, if an artist doesn't need to be a pop star to make a living. They really just need to cater to a niche of dedicated fans that love what they're doing. And NFTs and Web 3.0 really allow that artist to benefit from that type of model more than ever before.  [00:45:08] Dan Runcie: I know. It's fascinating. It's an exciting time to see all the developments and what's going to come down the pipe for you all, what's going to come down for everyone else. It's going to be an exciting time. That's why so many of us are in this industry, right? But before we let you go though, where can people follow along with HitPiece if they want to stay and tap with what you have coming on, or if they want to follow along, where should they go? [00:45:28] Rory Felton: Yeah, so clearly you can go to HitPiece.com. You can just put in your email if you don't want to sign up yet and just follow updates from us on our email list. You can find us on Twitter or Instagram @joinHitPiece. You can even follow me on Twitter or Instagram if you'd like, @RoryFelton. Everything's open and my life is really an open book for everyone. [00:45:48] Dan Runcie: Awesome. Thanks, Rory. This is great. Thanks for coming on.  [00:45:51] Rory Felton: Thanks, Dan, for your time. We really appreciate it. [00:45:54] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 27 Oct 2022 08:00:00 -0000 How HitPiece Rebounded and Relaunched After Controversy full 147 Dan Runcie Rory founded HitPiece two years ago. HitPiece is an NFT marketplace focused solely on music collections. While in beta earlier this year, unauthorized NFTs from big-name artists became available for purchase on HitPiece. HitPiece was hit with wide-spread backlash from artists, the RIAA, and many others for copyright infringement. The company quickly went dark while the team recalibrated its business. Rory Felton has spent most of his past two decades in music being pro-artist. He developed talent and sold millions of records under his Militia Group label that he co-founded and eventually sold to Sony. In the early days of social media, Rory worked with Top 40 artists and majors to monetize on these new platforms. That’s why it was ironic that Rory was recently criticized for being anti-artist.  Rory founded HitPiece two years ago. HitPiece is an NFT marketplace focused solely on music collections. While in beta earlier this year, unauthorized NFTs from big-name artists became available for purchase on HitPiece. HitPiece was hit with wide-spread backlash from artists, the RIAA, and many others for copyright infringement. The company quickly went dark while the team recalibrated its business. Months later, HitPiece has now re-launched. This time with strictly-authenticated collections on-site from rising artists like ATL Jacob, Pyrex Whippa, and proven commodities such as Rick Ross. A metaverse add-on is also in the works to virtually display purchased NFTs. In many ways, the industry-wide blowback changed both Rory and HitPiece. The company’s intent has stayed consistent from the get-go: to make NFTs easy for both artists and fans. Rory joined me on the show to cover what went wrong with HitPiece earlier this year, why this relaunch is different, and the opportunities and challenges NFTs have inside the music industry. Here’s everything we covered: [2:58] Rory’s two decades in the industry pre-HitPiece [6:07] “Best time in human history to be an artist”  [9:19] What went wrong with HitPiece’s beta release [13:33] Re-gaining industry trust after the backlash  [16:22] Did HitPiece consider rebranding? [19:12] How HitPiece built a collection with rising star ATL Jacob [20:27] Web3 co-existing with industry, not replacing it [27:34] Building out a music-centric metaverse  [33:32] How HitPiece will compete against Facebook, Opensea, and other big players [35:57] Types of NFT collections on HitPiece [39:00] How to win the music industry in 2022 and onward  [43:17] HitPiece plans for 2023 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Rory Felton, @Roryfelton   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Rory Felton: We think this space is for everyone. And we think that the smallest artists on the planet can actually benefit from Web 3.0 in a way that maybe streaming isn't changing the game for them right now. For instance, we've worked with baby developing artists that are making more money from Web 3.0 in one launch of an NFT collection than they would over two to three months from streaming. In general, we all think music's the coolest thing in the world. And so we want to revalue it in a way that maybe NFTs allow us to that technology hasn't enabled in the past. [00:00:40] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:60] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Rory Felton. He is the co-founder and CEO of HitPiece, a company that's bringing artists and fans together through NFTs in real life experiences, metaverse experiences and more. HitPiece is one of our sponsors this quarter for Trapital, and I wanted to have this conversation because Rory and HitPiece have had a very interesting past couple of months. Back in February, they launched a platform, but there was a ton of controversy surrounding it because a lot of artists had their music and their NFTs for sale on the platform without their consent, and understandably so, it created a bunch of frustration and news around some of the consent around NFTs, some of the perception around the space overall and how that impacted Rory and the team. So in this conversation, we talked about it. We talked about how that happened, why it happened, and what Roy and the team are doing now moving forward for that not to happen in the future. And then we talked about what does HitPiece look like now moving forward, what are the opportunities more broadly for Web 3.0 companies in music, what are some of the challenges, what are some of the artists that they're working with now, like ATL Jacob, who just signed with Republic Records. So we talked about that, and Rory has a ton of experience in the music industry, even before HitPiece. So we talked about how that shapes his current strategy and what he thinks successful look like, not just for HitPiece, but for the overall industry moving forward. Great conversation and tons of insights, and especially for a lot of the founders that have built stuff messed up and want to hear what it's like to keep things going. This is a good one to listen to. Here's my chat with Rory.  [00:02:39] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we are joined by Rory Felton, who is the co-founder and CEO of HitPiece. But before we talk about HitPiece or anything like that, I know you've worked in music for a number of years and you've had a few different hats in this industry. What attracted you to the space early on?  [00:02:58] Rory Felton: Oh, man. So when I was 15, I started playing music and I learned pretty quickly that I really couldn't write songs very well. So when I was 16, I started putting on local shows for artists booking regional acts, and that naturally turned into putting out records for artists. And in the nineties, we were manufacturing CDs, so I actually learned the process of printing, shipping it to a factory, calling distributors, trying to get them to ship out our CDs to retailers. And that's how I started. In 2000, I moved out to LA to go to school at SC, was a little bored and started another record label. Our first few records did quite well. I think our first record almost went gold, and so that created enough revenue to really fund the company and grow that record label. And for the next 10 years, we ended up selling millions of records. I developed dozens of artists, felt really proud of what we accomplished. Sony Music later invested in the company and later acquired the major artists that I worked And I took a breather for a moment because working with artists can be a lot of work and can be emotional and and challenging in so many ways, but also fun and exciting. And I ended up finding a real passion for the technology side of the music industry. I really wanted to have sort of a macro impact on the industry in helping artists create new technologies to connect with their fan base, develop new business models. And I saw, sort of saw the old record company structure or record deal structure is sort of a little bit antiquated, and there are so many technologies here that could allow artists to directly connect with their fans and connect and create new and unique revenue streams. And so I spent several years in the early 2010s helping top 40 artists sell music and merchandise in stream on social media like Gaga, Green Day, Snoop Dog, Tim McGraw, A$AP Rocky, all the major labels. And I did a couple years overseas on a volunteer trip and then came back to the music space really on artist management initially, but also in blockchain. I bought Bitcoin in 2014 and was always really curious about blockchain's application to the music space. And in 2018 I co-wrote a white paper on digital collectibles for artists and could not get anyone's attention back then on this space and the idea of fans buying digital merchandise from artists and connecting with them and the idea of an artist creating a layer of community ownership and what they were doing. And then obviously fast forward a couple of years, the NFT space, that specific protocol has really taken off four creatives and four artists. And I decided to jump in full time to apply this innovation to the music industry 'cause I saw so many opportunities for artists to take advantage of it. [00:05:43] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And one thing there before we get to the HitPiece part of it where you are today, selling your record label and everything there to Sony, what is it like watching the current movement now with other record labels being bought up by other record labels, especially the majors or just some of the catalog purchases there? Because I'm sure you did this in a very different market than what we're seeing now.  [00:06:07] Rory Felton: Yeah, so a lot of people don't remember this, but in 2006 to like 2011, it was really hairy for the record industry. There were a lot of unknowns. Downloading was here, digital like iTunes and its competitors, however, streaming as a paid streaming format really hadn't taken off or really been fully established. And so you had these massive problems still with file sharing and people just assuming music was free, right? And just downloading it without paying for it from all sorts of websites. And so there was this moment, an era where like, gosh, golly, we don't know if these major labels are really going to figure it out. And kudos to them, they struck some really savvy deals and made streaming something that really, really worked. So today's era has been amazing. I get really excited for artists that are able to have huge liquidity opportunities if they've built a catalog over their lifetime. And then also I get really excited just as more opportunities to finance your career than there ever have been. You can now borrow against your catalog. You can borrow against your master rights or publishing rights to fund something you want to do moving forward. You could never do that 10 or 15 years ago. So you have players like that in this space. You have distributors in this space, almost playing like record labels and advancing monies to artists, but allowing artists to keep their masters. And then you have record labels sort of playing as distributors. And so you have all these middle men kind of playing as different roles. And I think it's great 'cause artists have more opportunity now than they've ever been. I've been saying this for a few years. It is the best time in human history to be a music artist. It was so hard in the nineties and so hard in the early 2000s to stand out, and now even though we are in some economic challenges right now, and just the macro economy, it's still really the best time in human history to be a music artist.  [00:07:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's generally where I land with this too. I know that there's a lot of people that have a bit of the nostalgia and yearning for being able to sell CDs and being able to make the money off of CDs, but it was still a market that had tons of gatekeepers. And even without Napster, I still think that there would be a lot of challenges 'cause there were a bunch of CD sales that were of bad catalog that weren't exactly of new things, but we could go all day talking about that. But it was a fascinating time for sure. But fast forwarding a few years though, with HitPiece, of course you have the idea and you see the opportunity to be able to make it easier for artists to monetize and take advantage of what's here. And I know that earlier this year, the launch day didn't go the way that you had wanted it to. And there was a lot of press and some negative things written about just the intent and where you all were trying to go. And I know that there are also a few artists too, whether it's like Jack Antonoff and a few others that had some complaints about how it went down and after reading a few of those, I definitely saw some of the responses and from your perspective as well, but I never really got a good, clear sense for what was the . Intent and what would this have looked like if the launch had went as well as it could have, so it'd be great to hear a little bit about that, because I feel that's the part that was a little bit missing in some of the discussions about what had happened.  [00:09:19] Rory Felton: Yeah. So first and foremost, I really believe in innovation, and I really believe in enriching artists, and artists being able to control their music and what they're doing. And so we were looking at this space and thinking about like, man, if I put on my music fan hat, what's the ideal experience I want as a music fan? What would I love to have more than anything? And platforms like Spotify and Apple Music has sort of trained us to feel like everything could be in one place. And so we put together this idea to create an experiment where we tried to show artists and labels and rights holders, hey, this is what the future could look like. Here's sort of this private game experience that we think would be really fun to onboard a huge number of people into this space very quickly and create a massive revenue stream for artists and rights holders. And where we really messed up is we failed to put the proper guardrails around it to where too much of it was public too fast. And that was something that we definitely messed up with. We were having active discussions with hundreds of artists, managers, major record companies. We had showed them what we're doing. Hey, what do you think of this experience we're creating? And all the feedback that we received was highly positive. Everyone was really excited about this potential future for a platform that could turn on a whole new revenue stream for them without a lot of work. One thing I've experienced as a manager and a record company founder is that artists are so busy. They're in the studio making music all the time. They have to go on tour, they have to make content for social media all the time right now. They're so busy doing all these things you don't want to add just another thing to their plate. And so we've always tried to make it, what's the easiest way for them to onboard into a new space without having to create a huge amount of work for them? So that was our intent. Clearly, we failed to have the proper guard rails around it. And we took down the beta after a few weeks. And there were obviously some artists that expressed some frustration with it. And since then, we've had conversations with hundreds of artists and labels and managers and industry leaders, sharing with them how we feel about this space, what we think is coming, and the overall sediment has been really about excitement and enthusiasm. about what's coming in this space and the opportunities that are being created for artists and rights holders in this space.  [00:11:39] Dan Runcie: Got it. So if I'm understanding correctly, it's like you were trying to show, okay, this is what it could look like. Let's give you an example of what this could look like. Like, if your Taylor Swift, like this is a type of revenue stream that you could unlock, but the presentation of it was more so, hey, here's where you can buy Taylor Swift's, you know, access to her likeness or access to her music. And you were trying to more so show a demo as opposed to an actual marketplace. Do I have that right?  [00:12:07] Rory Felton: Yeah, it was definitely a live demo. There was no music used on the website. As a music rights holder myself, as someone that's worked with artists for decades, we would never utilize music in a way that was infringing on their rights or unapproved in any way. And that's something that I think really got lost in the storm of it all is the fact that there was no music on the website. We had some marketing language on the website, and again, we've looked at this as a beta experiment for a small audience. It was by no means built or intended to be exposed to the world at large. But we did have some language on the website that was not fully fleshed out at the time, again, like many beta experiments are.  [00:12:49] Dan Runcie: So was part of it also as well that the beta was meant to be a bit of a closed opportunity, but then it leaked, or then it got out?  [00:12:58] Rory Felton: It was public and that was an error on our end. You know, we failed to have the guardrails built around to cut off certain sections or functions of the website that shouldn't have been made public. [00:13:08] Dan Runcie: Got it. Okay. So since then, how has it been having a lot of these conversations? 'cause obviously you were able to drum up a bunch of support leading up to February and you still had plenty of connections now with artists that we'll get into soon. But what was it like having those conversations, whether it's with labels or others where you're trying to communicate not just what happened but also build up a bit of trust given the impact? [00:13:33] Rory Felton: Yeah. What we found is that, well, having been in this industry for two decades, I have a huge number of relationships from, you know, the tops of the major record companies, major publishers to many, many, many managers of both developing artists and some of the biggest artists in the world. And they know me, right, so they knew my heart, they knew where I was coming from, and I just was able to be honest with them, and say, look, we moved a little too fast here. We built this product a little too fast without fully flushing out where we should put certain guardrails in place, and the response was, hey, look, we get it, no problem. We're looking for solutions in this space. We need easy ways to launch collections to audiences that might want to be interested in this. And right now everything on the market feels a little too complicated, right? NFTs and Web 3.0, it feels nerdy and it feels complex. And I think a lot of the early people in this space may have made it that way on purpose so that there feels like there's a level of like seniority or gatekeeping to it. And we've approached this and been like, no, this is actually pretty simple. This is actually making what has existed in the world of music already, such as VIP experiences, and fan clubs, and even, like, DRM music, and it's creating it on a layer of new technology that actually gives more ownership to fans and actually deepens relationships between artists and fans. And so that response has been really exciting and I think that's what's contributed to us being able to onboard the large volume of artists that we have onboarded so far and continue to have exciting conversations every single day with folks across this space.  [00:15:14] Dan Runcie: Have there been any lingering impacts since then? Like, obviously there's the initial response and things have happened. But since you've relaunched. And it does seem like, as you mentioned, you still are stable of artists and there are a bunch of folks that you're working with but are there any lingering impacts from what had happened?  [00:15:30] Rory Felton: I would say there's probably still some artists that just don't want to have anything to do with the NFT space. I think that in general, there's still a lot of misunderstanding around what Web 3.0 is and what it can enable, and there seems to, generally speaking, a level of negative sentiment towards NFTs in some categories of the music industry. But that seems to be sort of a blanket feeling or sentiment towards NFTs, not necessarily what we're doing. [00:15:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I've heard that from, was just talking to a few people about this earlier this week, and we've heard it as well, just the polarizing nature of it that's bigger than HitPiece. And I think it's something for a lot of companies to navigate, but it's not necessarily at one company itself. But, I guess, leading up to the relaunch recently, were there any talks at all about rebranding or anything like that? 'Cause obviously I know that staying with the name is also a statement in itself.  [00:16:22] Rory Felton: Yeah, clearly, we thought about every sort of path we could take. You know, we even thought like, do we want to do this? Like, is this worth the battle, right? And what we decided at the end of the day was, look, some folks thought we were doing something we were not doing at all. Our intent was completely misconstrued, and we felt like if we were to shut it all down and say, you know, good night. It's almost like the people that were creating this narrative would've won or that narrative would've become true, right? In our hearts, in our feeling, and everyone at the company that's at the company that was experienced all that, we all felt together, like, look, this isn't what we are doing. This isn't what we're all about. Like, we should stick with it and see this through because we felt like the brand was now very well known for better or worse, and it's up to us to sort of, to see it through and show to the world that, no, this isn't what we were trying to do. We're actually making something amazing, we think, for artists and so far, in the collections that we've launched has done really well for the artists that we've worked with. So that's what led to our decision to stick with the brand and keep going. We could have posited to a whole other brand, but everyone would just say, oh, those are the same folks that did this. So what would be the point of that? Because it's still me. Unlike a lot of people in this space, I've never been anonymous, right? I've always been completely public with who I am. HitPiece was on my LinkedIn, on my branding since early last year. I didn't hide from any of this. I engaged with anyone that wanted to have a conversation and still will. So it's not in our nature to hide or to run away. We think that Web 3.0 is still a huge game changer for both developing and establishing artists, and we want to provide incredible solutions for artists.  [00:18:10] Dan Runcie: And what was the hardest part for you personally during all of this, as the founder, as the leader of the organization, but also as a human being dealing with the fallout and just trying to keep things moving? [00:18:22] Rory Felton: Oh gosh. I think for a little bit, like, you know, personally I'm a father. I'm a husband, and so for me, it's just not letting what some people in social media or in the media might say about me impact who I know I am and who I am to my family. First and foremost, that's always most important to me. So that was probably the biggest challenge and, you know, clearly, it's not something that we wanted to happen, but we're really excited and bullish on the future right now.  [00:18:48] Dan Runcie: For sure. And I think you have a lot of reasons, too. One of the artists that you have, ATL Jacob recently signed a deal with Republic Records. And I think he's someone who's definitely been rising quite a bit, and I assume that's a partnership that you are able to land in the most recent months. So what did that look like and what has it been like working alongside someone like him and then seeing the growth continue? [00:19:12] Rory Felton: Yeah, Jacob was amazing. We are so blessed to really have just the perfect time to connect and meet him and hear about what he thought about this space, and what he wanted to do, and had that sort of build a collection together that really made sense for his brand and offer value to his super fans that really you can't get any other way. And so that's what we're really excited about. We, of course, knew he was in conversations with major labels at the time and knew something would happen in that space. We just feel honored and privileged that we get to be his partner for Web 3.0 because he's clearly an incredible talent that's had huge success on the producing side in the last couple of years, and I think we're going to see him break out as an artist over the next year and reach completely new milestones as well in his career. [00:19:57] Dan Runcie: And what was it like for what he was able to do specifically on HitPiece? 'Cause I think a lot of people that see artists, they understand what it's like to be on a major label, but from an economic standpoint, like what they were able to do with a platform like yours, there still is a bit of questions, and this honestly may lead to some of the confusion some artists may have about NFTs, Web 3.0 in general, so obviously you may not be able to share all the details, but, like, what did things look like for him right now with what you've all been able to work on and what he's released, and what that ends up looking like for him?  [00:20:27] Rory Felton: Yeah, so he's building a beautiful collection of art that's going to be completely collectible, and those tokens will be connected to incredible in real-life experiences. So some of those tokens can be redeemed for a studio session with ATL Jacob. So rather than, typically in the music industry, right, you have to go through a manager or you have to go through a record company. You have to go through gatekeepers to get to someone on Jacob's level. Here we're saying, no, let's break down all the barriers and say, actually through Web 3.0, you can have an incredible experience, and you could work with, you know, a producer that spends six months at the number one rap producer chart on Billboard. Like, you can actually work with them and make a record together, right? Experiences like that we think are incredible, exclusive merchandising items. And being able to essentially build a really connected VIP club of sorts that will get you access to experiences, to events, to really in- person, one on one time with these artists and producers that people love. You know, this is what I think Web 3.0 is all about. It's creating experiences that are unparalleled in other parts of the music industry.  [00:21:40] Dan Runcie: So given those experiences, and I think those are definitely things that fans and everything value and things that he could likely build a career standalone on. Is there any particular question or thought about when an artist-producer like him goes in, does a deal with a major label as a bit of it like, oh, well why did you need to do that? Like, you could have continued working here, like, part of the promise is getting more inherent value for the work itself. Was there any tension there at all with him or even with some of the other artists?  [00:22:11] Rory Felton: No, because every artist is different, and every artist gets different types of opportunities. And to me, Web 3.0 is not about being in Web 3.0 only and forgetting about the rest of the industry. It's not like you release your content or your music only as NFT and you don't do streaming, right? It's not like you do that only and you don't go on tour, or you don't sync your music to film and TV, or you don't do brand partnerships. It's just one part of the bigger puzzle of connecting with fans and connecting with bigger audiences. I think this huge opportunity for artists to connect with fans through Web 3.0 while also doing partnerships on the record side that they want to do that work best for them and their brand. For Jacob specifically, he has a whole record label, Wicked Money Family, that he can do. He can sign new artists, too, and they all can go through this bigger system. That's not something that not every artist can just do on their own, right, being able to plug into a bigger system is great for him. What it does do is it may limit what type of content an artist can mint as an NFT on their own, such as if you're in an exclusive recording contract, it may limit or prohibit what specifically you can do with music. But those are always open discussions, and every single recording contract is unique and specific and different, and provide artists and labels with all sorts of different rights. [00:23:35] Dan Runcie: Got it. So for someone like him, and I guess as well thinking about how you're building the business, I do feel like your stance essentially is that a company like HitPiece can work, and they don't necessarily have to be exclusively here. They could work with majors, they could work with others. Do you feel like that mentality is similar to other founders you may talk to in Web 3.0 or with NFTs? Because some of the folks I talk to, there's a bit more of that dogmatic approach where the purpose of our platform is that you don't need to do that.  [00:24:08] Rory Felton: Yeah. So first and foremost, every partnership we have with an artist is non-exclusive. They could do a collection with us and go to a collection with anyone else or on their own using their own software at any time. That's something that I believe in. I believe in, like, we're not here to be an exclusive partner in any way. So I believe in artist freedom. Artists should have the freedom to do a record deal if they want to. Artists should also have the freedom to say, hey, look, I'm going to stay independent. I'm going to build up a balance sheet of masters and publishing that I own, and I'm going to leverage that in the way that I want to. I think every path is different for each artist and some work for others, and some don't work for others. And I've seen artists stay independent, build balance sheets of masters, and publish they own, and be tremendously successful. They build these multimillion-dollar businesses that they can operate and function like their own business. And then at the same time, that can just build up their leverage for if a major label wants to do a deal with them, they're saying, hey, look, my business is already doing millions of dollars a year. If you want to be in business with my business, you've gotta make it worth my while. To me, it's about, I think Web 3.0 increases leverage for artists if they embrace it and engage that community. But by no means would I look at it as a dogmatic Web 3.0 anti-record company approach. I don't think that's it at all. I think we're already seeing major labels enter Web 3.0 and allow their artists to try things in Web 3.0 that I think is really exciting. And every conversation I have with major labels and people at those companies is it's curiosity, it's intriguing, it's fun. They are by no means looking at it as a do-or-die or like you said, a dogmatic approach. I come from the music industry. I think maybe some other founders in this space don't have two decades of music experience, and so they're wanting to disrupt an industry that they think needs disruption. Whereas I know all these, all my friends that work at labels or at management companies, I mean, they bleed for artists. They put their heart and soul into trying to break new artists, and these are the people you want to be a part of your business, right? You don't want to just alienate them and cut them off. That being said, historically, some record deals have been a little unfair for the artists, right? And I'm not trying to say that that's not the case, but I think innovation like Web 3.0 is continuing to increase artist leverage and continuing to give them more options. More options is really what it's all about.  [00:26:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think even the point that you mentioned at the beginning of the conversation, just your stance on streaming itself and what it unlocked for the business, that is a bit more of that holistic perspective as opposed to some others that, you know, I think the belief that music should have inherent value, which it should. I think it's a bit of that dichotomy, and to be honest, you hear less of that from the record labels with, most of the time, it maybe from some of the founders and folks outside of the industry. But it's a fascinating time. It's a fascinating time. And I know that with you, you're not just thinking about NFTs and things minting for HitPiece, you're also having a metaverse, you have the Lounge and having that as an opportunity for artists, and I know that's something that's continuing developing as well. What does that look like and what does that opportunity look like for artists?  [00:27:34] Rory Felton: Yeah, so one, we realized there's a small but growing population of people that love to collect music as NFT format. I think of NFT as it applies to audio music as a new format, just like there was vinyl, there was downloads, there was streaming. NFT is sort of a new type of format for music, and there wasn't really a centralized place to play all your music. There are a couple of apps butting up that allow you to sort of plug into your wallet and play your music collection. We wanted to create a space that allowed a collector to display NFTs that they're collecting from music artists on the wall, but also put them on a record shelf if they're music NFTs and allow people, allow them to come in and play their own music, allow other people to come into a fans room and play their music. I've seen that a lot of these metaverse spaces that fans are using to share their NFTs are almost like part business card part, like, showing off and bragging to their friends and their community what they own, what they collect. It reminds me a lot as being a teenager of collecting CDs and records that were hard to find from really, really new artists and sort of bragging with your friends that you got to them earlier than they did. And we wanted to sort of mimic this experience in a really cool, beautiful, metaverse space and also be a space that artists could brand and create their own version of, as well as invite their VIP community to be a part of, be it virtual record listening parties or virtual tour kickoffs where they could display or present new music. One functionality we have that artists are taking advantage of is token-gated releases. So they might release regular releases like they always do but put out maybe a limited edition mixtape that is only available to people who buy an NFT to access it. And so you go into the Lounge, our system reads that you have that NFT in your wallet and it unlocks access to music that you wouldn't otherwise have. That doesn't just have to be music. It can be all sorts of content. So the idea is you're rewarding your most engaged community token holders with really cool experiences. We speak with artists that want to create experiences that get updated every single month, so keeps fans coming back to this space that they almost treat like a social media platform or like a website, but the artist gets to control it entirely themselves. [00:29:58] Dan Runcie: I feel like the fan piece of this is the unique piece of this, and I know that's a bit of the broader conversations that people have had about the metaverse, but being able to have that type of way to actually physically show what you have, and I think this is a piece that was missing a bit from, I'll call it the first stage of the NFT boom, right? We saw a lot of people changing their profile picks, but ultimately, how do you create the opportunity for people to have some type of visual that you can see, right? Like, people are buying vinyls right now. People want to be able to have those vinyls visible or no different than buying DVDs or VHS tapes back in the day. Part of it was the medium itself, but you also, it was a statement of who you are. Having some type of collection that can show that I think it's valuable, plus all of the exclusive perks that they can get from their favorite artist or from their type of experiences. I do think that that is something that a lot of fans would value, assuming that it can be somewhere where the people that they want to see those things also are engaged in. [00:30:59] Rory Felton: Yeah, we see there's millions of people around the world that build up massive record collections on their wall. And when you go into their house, it's often the main feature of their house is their record collection. And oftentimes, that's tied to a really high-end audio system as well, depending on where you're at and your lifestyle, right? And we wanted to sort of create that experience for anyone or everyone in the metaverse space. And so that's what the Lounge is built around, is sort of to cater to that type of collector, if you will. I think we're still very early in the Web 3.0 NFT space, clearly with where the economy's at. I think we're going to start to see some huge growth over the next year or two, but we wanted to build these tools now for people so that when more and more people start to come into this space every month, every quarter, they're already ready for them to sort of plug into. And in fact, in a certain sense, it provides more utility for all NFTs. So you could buy music NFTs anywhere you want to on the internet and be able to pull them into this Lounge space we've created for them to perform, to play, and to share with their friends and their community. [00:32:05] Dan Runcie: So this leads me to the age-old question I'm sure every venture capitalist asks at some point, how do you compete this against Facebook or Meta and their offering to eventually try to do this similar type of thing? But obviously, you have a more of a specific community. But I do know that with a lot of the different types of metaverse experiences, that type of thought is something that's likely in the back of the minds for a lot of founders. [00:32:30] Rory Felton: I think that there's clearly dozens of metaverse spaces that already exist. We're not necessarily looking to create an entire universe. We just want to create experiences and artist-branded experiences. And I think potentially we see a future where these artist-branded virtual slash metaverse experiences can be interoperable with a metaverse space that Meta is building or with the other ones that exist right now, such as Sandbox and Decentraland. We, of course, being a blockchain-based company, we believe in decentralization. We think that that's a value to be recognized and to be held up. And so if we continue to see other metaverse spaces built on the same or similar blockchains, I think we're going to see them be interoperable in new ways that may currently just not exist yet.  [00:33:22] Dan Runcie: And would the same type of logic apply as well for the marketplace that you all have, given folks like OpenSea or some of the other broader platforms?  [00:33:32] Rory Felton: So our big differentiator from a platform like OpenSea is we only allow authenticated artists to mint NFTs in our platform. One of the big challenges I see with some of the secondary-focused NFT marketplaces is that it's a wild west still. There's an insane amount of content that infringes on other people's rights that use all sorts of artists' name, image, like this audio without any sort of permission, right? And unlike a lot of people in this space or some people in this space, we actually believe in copyright. We think that's really valuable for artists and artists investors, and we really wanted to make sure that we prevent it as much as possible, people minting content that they didn't control through our platform. And so when fans or collectors come to HitPiece.com, they can feel assured that everything on our platform is authentic, is real, is coming from the artist that says it's coming from. And that's also why we were the first NFT company to integrate with Audible Magic. Audible Magic allows us to scan every single piece of audio file that gets uploaded to HitPiece to be minted as an NFT. And we test that against their massive database of over a hundred million songs to see if that song has been registered previously or as a copyrighted work from a record company or an artist. And we've already been able to say, hang on, that song's copyright. We need to confirm whether this artist actually controls the copyright of this audio file. And so we want to make sure that only the authenticated parties, the owners of works are actually able to mint NFTs of their creative content through HitPiece. So that's a big difference I see versus like the secondary markets of the world. But we also think ours is a little bit more just music-focused, right? Music NFTs are a little different than PFP projects or artwork NFTs, and so it really requires a different experience than maybe what some of the secondary markets that appeal to every one offer, if that makes sense. [00:35:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. And I assume that some of the guardrails there to make sure that things are authenticated, to make sure it has the right copyright and licensing, also tie back to ensuring that what had happened back in February doesn't happen again. So part of that authentication, I'm sure likely may slow down some of the process, but it is how you ensure that everything that is there and what is transparent and seen is ultimately what you're trying to actually sell.  [00:35:57] Rory Felton: Yeah. I don't think an experience that we've built, that you can go to HitPiece.com and see right now really exists anywhere else, and we've really tried to focus on making, one, authenticated protecting rights holders. And two, just make it super simple and easy for both artists who are new to this space that may not fully understand all the language and this new terminology that's come around, make it super easy for them to create their own collections and start minting NFTs with their creative content. And then also just make it super easy for music fans, you know, that haven't purchased an NFT to be able to collect one. I would say that really a small, small number of music fans overall have still entered Web 3.0 or acquired an NFT, be it for free or purchase, and there's still a huge amount of education that platforms like ourselves need to do and others about how to onboard into this space. [00:36:52] Dan Runcie: So for you all, specifically, with the folks you have on board before and up to this point, is ATL Jacob, is he the most successful artist or the artist that's made the most money on the platform so far?  [00:37:04] Rory Felton: So ATL Jacob's collection has not launched yet. We have launched a variety of collections from artists like Surf, and we have a couple of collections dropping tomorrow. This interview, of course, will be out after this date. From King Midas, who's a Baltimore artist, and from Pyrex Whippa, who's a multi-platinum producer slash artist, a part of the 808 Mafia. He's worked with artists like Future, Juice WRLD, DaBaby. And his collection also involves granting people rights to collaborate with him in the studio. Some actually get a limited-edition skateboard from him. And also some of them actually get a limited edition beat kit from him as well. So there's all these cool, both digital and in real-life experiences, tied to token ownership, which we believe in.  [00:37:50] Dan Runcie: No, that's solid.  [00:37:51] Rory Felton: But beyond those, we do have some other, like, multi-platinum slash diamond level music artists, Grammy-nominated artists that we're looking to announce really, really soon. [00:38:02] Dan Runcie: Any hints as to who they may be?  [00:38:05] Rory Felton: I'll just say we have a lot of love for Atlanta.  [00:38:08] Dan Runcie: Okay.  [00:38:08] Rory Felton: Atlanta moves the culture. Atlanta's, like, where my heart is. I love going to Atlanta. I think everyone in Atlanta is just coming. Being in LA for 20 years, like Atlanta's so nice. You have that southern hospitality, but you have that hustle and that combination of both. Like, I just love being in Atlanta. I love the vibe of Atlanta.  [00:38:25] Dan Runcie: All right. We'll definitely look out for that one, for sure. Thinking about the company and hearing how you're building it, though, it does make me think about this article that you had written a couple of years back. I think it was an article you posted on LinkedIn actually is like, How to Win the Music Industry of 2019-2025, and you're describing what the type of company would look like and what type of things they need to have in place. And now that we're a couple of years past that, what are you seeing in the industry now, and is there any specific company that you think is checking all those boxes?  [00:39:00] Rory Felton: Oh, man. I think when I wrote that, it was one of those, like late night, man, why doesn't this company exist? You know, if I had a hundred million dollars, this is what I would do, right? And it's interesting, I see companies doing bits and pieces of that, and what's fascinating is like I sometimes forget that I published that article, and I've even had, you know, investors and venture capital people reach out, nothing to do with HitPiece. They're just really curious about what I wrote, and they're like, this is it. How do we do this? And it's been fascinating to see that piece impact, if you will. No one's doing all of that, but I'll gladly compliment folks that I think are moving in that direction. United Masters and what Steve Stoute built, I think, is incredible. If you would've told me several years ago that someone could enter the music distribution space with a similar offering to other platforms out there, I never would've thought someone could truly compete. But kudos to him and his team, they've completely proved me, and I'll think a lot of people wrong. They've made a huge impact in, again, creating more opportunities for artists who can own their own content and not necessarily feel like they're stuck to have to do the traditional record deal. I think what they're doing is pretty amazing. Let's see, who else? I got to give out props to Downtown Music Holdings group. I think they're doing a huge amount of innovation in this space, both on the record side, on the distribution side, and on the publishing side. I'm a huge fan of Songtrust and what they built and that offering. I tell every music artist to work with if they do not have a publishing deal, sign up with Songtrust. It's a super easy admin deal that just creates a great solution that captures money that you just cannot capture any other way. I try to tell every music artist, I'm like, look, if you're writing your own music, you're writing your own songs, you're not going to get all your money that's due to you, just through your PRO. Artists, unfortunately, they're so busy, so much going on, they don't fully understand that. And so it's, like, the artists that I've seen turn on to a platform like Songtrust, they've literally turned on five figures plus in revenue in a quarter because that money is just sitting there if they don't capture it, eventually just goes away, which is really sad. So those are my shout-outs. Those are companies that I think are doing it well. I think with that piece, if I were to critique it now, I think it's a little too broad. There's a little too much going on for one company to do. But I'm a big fan of companies that, you know, believe in artistic freedom and innovation and providing more tools and opportunities for artists while also actually creating real success for them. [00:41:26] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think what sticks out about those two companies is both the partnerships and the fact that there's, you know, overall companies that are tying both of them together, right? So United Masters is obviously tied to the work that Stoute had done with or is currently doing with Translation on the ad side. And then that also informs so many of the partnerships and just how he has been able to help think and expand things there. And then Downtown, specifically how they've been able to just reorganize a few of the things and then restructure to just understand, okay, what could that stack look like. What could it have to have all of these companies underneath, but in this way that feels practical, but not in this way of, you know, a company trying to check every box that's the hottest topic right now.  [00:42:12] Rory Felton: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think companies are wise to, that are established in at scale. They're wise to take their time with Web 3.0 versus jump into it head-on per se. And I would encourage everyone to experiment. I think you can experiment in this space and try new things without having to go completely in. And of course, we're a great solution to experiment with. But there's clearly a variety of opportunities out there to do things. And quite frankly, no one knows exactly how the NFT innovation's going to be utilized in a few years from now, right? We have our hunch. We think it's going to be connected to real-life experiences and real amazing virtual experiences. However, I think there's all sorts of innovation that maybe hasn't even been created yet for its application, such as to ticketing and other categories as well.  [00:43:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah, there's so much more to explore. We're still in the early innings with this. I'm excited to see what's next. But before we wrap things up, let's talk about what's next for you all. What does 2023 look like? What are the big things on the roadmap?  [00:43:17] Rory Felton: Yeah, so as you mentioned, we've been building the Lounge metaverse space to connect artists and fans as well as give fans a great way to display and show off the collections that they own. So that's going to be launching soon. We clearly have some really amazing collections coming up from some really top-tier artists that we're excited to announce really soon as well. And then we fully built out now this completely self-service solution for independent artists to come in and start minting NFTs with their content. We haven't really focused on presenting that or pushing that yet to the independent community at scale. But that's something that we are looking forward to. We felt that it was best, hey, look, we want to establish that there is interest and demand for this space. That's why we focused on more established artists, artists with audiences initially, but really we think this space is for everyone. And we think that the smallest artists on the planet can actually benefit from Web 3.0 in a way that maybe streaming isn't changing the game for them right now. For instance, we've worked with baby developing artists that are making more money from Web 3.0 in one launch of an NFT collection than they would over two to three months from streaming. And I think this again goes back to humanity and society sort of revaluing music. In general, we all think music's the coolest thing in the world. We all think music is the most divine thing that we get to participate in as humans. And so we want to revalue it in a way that maybe NFTs allow us to that technology hasn't enabled in the past. And I think more than ever this concept of a thousand true fans is truer than ever, right, if an artist doesn't need to be a pop star to make a living. They really just need to cater to a niche of dedicated fans that love what they're doing. And NFTs and Web 3.0 really allow that artist to benefit from that type of model more than ever before.  [00:45:08] Dan Runcie: I know. It's fascinating. It's an exciting time to see all the developments and what's going to come down the pipe for you all, what's going to come down for everyone else. It's going to be an exciting time. That's why so many of us are in this industry, right? But before we let you go though, where can people follow along with HitPiece if they want to stay and tap with what you have coming on, or if they want to follow along, where should they go? [00:45:28] Rory Felton: Yeah, so clearly you can go to HitPiece.com. You can just put in your email if you don't want to sign up yet and just follow updates from us on our email list. You can find us on Twitter or Instagram @joinHitPiece. You can even follow me on Twitter or Instagram if you'd like, @RoryFelton. Everything's open and my life is really an open book for everyone. [00:45:48] Dan Runcie: Awesome. Thanks, Rory. This is great. Thanks for coming on.  [00:45:51] Rory Felton: Thanks, Dan, for your time. We really appreciate it. [00:45:54] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Rory Felton has spent most of his past two decades in music being pro-artist. He developed talent and sold millions of records under his Militia Group label that he co-founded and eventually sold to Sony. In the early days of social media, Rory worked with Top 40 artists and majors to monetize on these new platforms. That’s why it was ironic that Rory was recently criticized for being anti-artist. 


Rory founded HitPiece two years ago. HitPiece is an NFT marketplace focused solely on music collections. While in beta earlier this year, unauthorized NFTs from big-name artists became available for purchase on HitPiece. HitPiece was hit with wide-spread backlash from artists, the RIAA, and many others for copyright infringement. The company quickly went dark while the team recalibrated its business.


Months later, HitPiece has now re-launched. This time with strictly-authenticated collections on-site from rising artists like ATL Jacob, Pyrex Whippa, and proven commodities such as Rick Ross. A metaverse add-on is also in the works to virtually display purchased NFTs. In many ways, the industry-wide blowback changed both Rory and HitPiece. The company’s intent has stayed consistent from the get-go: to make NFTs easy for both artists and fans.


Rory joined me on the show to cover what went wrong with HitPiece earlier this year, why this relaunch is different, and the opportunities and challenges NFTs have inside the music industry. Here’s everything we covered:


[2:58] Rory’s two decades in the industry pre-HitPiece

[6:07] “Best time in human history to be an artist” 

[9:19] What went wrong with HitPiece’s beta release

[13:33] Re-gaining industry trust after the backlash 

[16:22] Did HitPiece consider rebranding?

[19:12] How HitPiece built a collection with rising star ATL Jacob

[20:27] Web3 co-existing with industry, not replacing it

[27:34] Building out a music-centric metaverse 

[33:32] How HitPiece will compete against Facebook, Opensea, and other big players

[35:57] Types of NFT collections on HitPiece

[39:00] How to win the music industry in 2022 and onward 

[43:17] HitPiece plans for 2023


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Rory Felton, @Roryfelton

 

Sponsors:

 

MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital

 

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TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Rory Felton: We think this space is for everyone. And we think that the smallest artists on the planet can actually benefit from Web 3.0 in a way that maybe streaming isn't changing the game for them right now. For instance, we've worked with baby developing artists that are making more money from Web 3.0 in one launch of an NFT collection than they would over two to three months from streaming. In general, we all think music's the coolest thing in the world. And so we want to revalue it in a way that maybe NFTs allow us to that technology hasn't enabled in the past.

[00:00:40] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 

[00:00:60] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Rory Felton. He is the co-founder and CEO of HitPiece, a company that's bringing artists and fans together through NFTs in real life experiences, metaverse experiences and more. HitPiece is one of our sponsors this quarter for Trapital, and I wanted to have this conversation because Rory and HitPiece have had a very interesting past couple of months. Back in February, they launched a platform, but there was a ton of controversy surrounding it because a lot of artists had their music and their NFTs for sale on the platform without their consent, and understandably so, it created a bunch of frustration and news around some of the consent around NFTs, some of the perception around the space overall and how that impacted Rory and the team. So in this conversation, we talked about it. We talked about how that happened, why it happened, and what Roy and the team are doing now moving forward for that not to happen in the future. And then we talked about what does HitPiece look like now moving forward, what are the opportunities more broadly for Web 3.0 companies in music, what are some of the challenges, what are some of the artists that they're working with now, like ATL Jacob, who just signed with Republic Records. So we talked about that, and Rory has a ton of experience in the music industry, even before HitPiece. So we talked about how that shapes his current strategy and what he thinks successful look like, not just for HitPiece, but for the overall industry moving forward. Great conversation and tons of insights, and especially for a lot of the founders that have built stuff messed up and want to hear what it's like to keep things going. This is a good one to listen to. Here's my chat with Rory. 

[00:02:39] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we are joined by Rory Felton, who is the co-founder and CEO of HitPiece. But before we talk about HitPiece or anything like that, I know you've worked in music for a number of years and you've had a few different hats in this industry. What attracted you to the space early on? 

[00:02:58] Rory Felton: Oh, man. So when I was 15, I started playing music and I learned pretty quickly that I really couldn't write songs very well. So when I was 16, I started putting on local shows for artists booking regional acts, and that naturally turned into putting out records for artists. And in the nineties, we were manufacturing CDs, so I actually learned the process of printing, shipping it to a factory, calling distributors, trying to get them to ship out our CDs to retailers. And that's how I started. In 2000, I moved out to LA to go to school at SC, was a little bored and started another record label. Our first few records did quite well. I think our first record almost went gold, and so that created enough revenue to really fund the company and grow that record label. And for the next 10 years, we ended up selling millions of records. I developed dozens of artists, felt really proud of what we accomplished. Sony Music later invested in the company and later acquired the major artists that I worked And I took a breather for a moment because working with artists can be a lot of work and can be emotional and and challenging in so many ways, but also fun and exciting. And I ended up finding a real passion for the technology side of the music industry. I really wanted to have sort of a macro impact on the industry in helping artists create new technologies to connect with their fan base, develop new business models. And I saw, sort of saw the old record company structure or record deal structure is sort of a little bit antiquated, and there are so many technologies here that could allow artists to directly connect with their fans and connect and create new and unique revenue streams. And so I spent several years in the early 2010s helping top 40 artists sell music and merchandise in stream on social media like Gaga, Green Day, Snoop Dog, Tim McGraw, A$AP Rocky, all the major labels. And I did a couple years overseas on a volunteer trip and then came back to the music space really on artist management initially, but also in blockchain. I bought Bitcoin in 2014 and was always really curious about blockchain's application to the music space. And in 2018 I co-wrote a white paper on digital collectibles for artists and could not get anyone's attention back then on this space and the idea of fans buying digital merchandise from artists and connecting with them and the idea of an artist creating a layer of community ownership and what they were doing. And then obviously fast forward a couple of years, the NFT space, that specific protocol has really taken off four creatives and four artists. And I decided to jump in full time to apply this innovation to the music industry 'cause I saw so many opportunities for artists to take advantage of it.

[00:05:43] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And one thing there before we get to the HitPiece part of it where you are today, selling your record label and everything there to Sony, what is it like watching the current movement now with other record labels being bought up by other record labels, especially the majors or just some of the catalog purchases there? Because I'm sure you did this in a very different market than what we're seeing now. 

[00:06:07] Rory Felton: Yeah, so a lot of people don't remember this, but in 2006 to like 2011, it was really hairy for the record industry. There were a lot of unknowns. Downloading was here, digital like iTunes and its competitors, however, streaming as a paid streaming format really hadn't taken off or really been fully established. And so you had these massive problems still with file sharing and people just assuming music was free, right? And just downloading it without paying for it from all sorts of websites. And so there was this moment, an era where like, gosh, golly, we don't know if these major labels are really going to figure it out. And kudos to them, they struck some really savvy deals and made streaming something that really, really worked. So today's era has been amazing. I get really excited for artists that are able to have huge liquidity opportunities if they've built a catalog over their lifetime. And then also I get really excited just as more opportunities to finance your career than there ever have been. You can now borrow against your catalog. You can borrow against your master rights or publishing rights to fund something you want to do moving forward. You could never do that 10 or 15 years ago. So you have players like that in this space. You have distributors in this space, almost playing like record labels and advancing monies to artists, but allowing artists to keep their masters. And then you have record labels sort of playing as distributors. And so you have all these middle men kind of playing as different roles. And I think it's great 'cause artists have more opportunity now than they've ever been. I've been saying this for a few years. It is the best time in human history to be a music artist. It was so hard in the nineties and so hard in the early 2000s to stand out, and now even though we are in some economic challenges right now, and just the macro economy, it's still really the best time in human history to be a music artist. 

[00:07:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's generally where I land with this too. I know that there's a lot of people that have a bit of the nostalgia and yearning for being able to sell CDs and being able to make the money off of CDs, but it was still a market that had tons of gatekeepers. And even without Napster, I still think that there would be a lot of challenges 'cause there were a bunch of CD sales that were of bad catalog that weren't exactly of new things, but we could go all day talking about that. But it was a fascinating time for sure. But fast forwarding a few years though, with HitPiece, of course you have the idea and you see the opportunity to be able to make it easier for artists to monetize and take advantage of what's here. And I know that earlier this year, the launch day didn't go the way that you had wanted it to. And there was a lot of press and some negative things written about just the intent and where you all were trying to go. And I know that there are also a few artists too, whether it's like Jack Antonoff and a few others that had some complaints about how it went down and after reading a few of those, I definitely saw some of the responses and from your perspective as well, but I never really got a good, clear sense for what was the . Intent and what would this have looked like if the launch had went as well as it could have, so it'd be great to hear a little bit about that, because I feel that's the part that was a little bit missing in some of the discussions about what had happened. 

[00:09:19] Rory Felton: Yeah. So first and foremost, I really believe in innovation, and I really believe in enriching artists, and artists being able to control their music and what they're doing. And so we were looking at this space and thinking about like, man, if I put on my music fan hat, what's the ideal experience I want as a music fan? What would I love to have more than anything? And platforms like Spotify and Apple Music has sort of trained us to feel like everything could be in one place. And so we put together this idea to create an experiment where we tried to show artists and labels and rights holders, hey, this is what the future could look like. Here's sort of this private game experience that we think would be really fun to onboard a huge number of people into this space very quickly and create a massive revenue stream for artists and rights holders. And where we really messed up is we failed to put the proper guardrails around it to where too much of it was public too fast. And that was something that we definitely messed up with. We were having active discussions with hundreds of artists, managers, major record companies. We had showed them what we're doing. Hey, what do you think of this experience we're creating? And all the feedback that we received was highly positive. Everyone was really excited about this potential future for a platform that could turn on a whole new revenue stream for them without a lot of work. One thing I've experienced as a manager and a record company founder is that artists are so busy. They're in the studio making music all the time. They have to go on tour, they have to make content for social media all the time right now. They're so busy doing all these things you don't want to add just another thing to their plate. And so we've always tried to make it, what's the easiest way for them to onboard into a new space without having to create a huge amount of work for them? So that was our intent. Clearly, we failed to have the proper guard rails around it. And we took down the beta after a few weeks. And there were obviously some artists that expressed some frustration with it. And since then, we've had conversations with hundreds of artists and labels and managers and industry leaders, sharing with them how we feel about this space, what we think is coming, and the overall sediment has been really about excitement and enthusiasm. about what's coming in this space and the opportunities that are being created for artists and rights holders in this space. 

[00:11:39] Dan Runcie: Got it. So if I'm understanding correctly, it's like you were trying to show, okay, this is what it could look like. Let's give you an example of what this could look like. Like, if your Taylor Swift, like this is a type of revenue stream that you could unlock, but the presentation of it was more so, hey, here's where you can buy Taylor Swift's, you know, access to her likeness or access to her music. And you were trying to more so show a demo as opposed to an actual marketplace. Do I have that right? 

[00:12:07] Rory Felton: Yeah, it was definitely a live demo. There was no music used on the website. As a music rights holder myself, as someone that's worked with artists for decades, we would never utilize music in a way that was infringing on their rights or unapproved in any way. And that's something that I think really got lost in the storm of it all is the fact that there was no music on the website. We had some marketing language on the website, and again, we've looked at this as a beta experiment for a small audience. It was by no means built or intended to be exposed to the world at large. But we did have some language on the website that was not fully fleshed out at the time, again, like many beta experiments are. 

[00:12:49] Dan Runcie: So was part of it also as well that the beta was meant to be a bit of a closed opportunity, but then it leaked, or then it got out? 

[00:12:58] Rory Felton: It was public and that was an error on our end. You know, we failed to have the guardrails built around to cut off certain sections or functions of the website that shouldn't have been made public.

[00:13:08] Dan Runcie: Got it. Okay. So since then, how has it been having a lot of these conversations? 'cause obviously you were able to drum up a bunch of support leading up to February and you still had plenty of connections now with artists that we'll get into soon. But what was it like having those conversations, whether it's with labels or others where you're trying to communicate not just what happened but also build up a bit of trust given the impact?

[00:13:33] Rory Felton: Yeah. What we found is that, well, having been in this industry for two decades, I have a huge number of relationships from, you know, the tops of the major record companies, major publishers to many, many, many managers of both developing artists and some of the biggest artists in the world. And they know me, right, so they knew my heart, they knew where I was coming from, and I just was able to be honest with them, and say, look, we moved a little too fast here. We built this product a little too fast without fully flushing out where we should put certain guardrails in place, and the response was, hey, look, we get it, no problem. We're looking for solutions in this space. We need easy ways to launch collections to audiences that might want to be interested in this. And right now everything on the market feels a little too complicated, right? NFTs and Web 3.0, it feels nerdy and it feels complex. And I think a lot of the early people in this space may have made it that way on purpose so that there feels like there's a level of like seniority or gatekeeping to it. And we've approached this and been like, no, this is actually pretty simple. This is actually making what has existed in the world of music already, such as VIP experiences, and fan clubs, and even, like, DRM music, and it's creating it on a layer of new technology that actually gives more ownership to fans and actually deepens relationships between artists and fans. And so that response has been really exciting and I think that's what's contributed to us being able to onboard the large volume of artists that we have onboarded so far and continue to have exciting conversations every single day with folks across this space. 

[00:15:14] Dan Runcie: Have there been any lingering impacts since then? Like, obviously there's the initial response and things have happened. But since you've relaunched. And it does seem like, as you mentioned, you still are stable of artists and there are a bunch of folks that you're working with but are there any lingering impacts from what had happened? 

[00:15:30] Rory Felton: I would say there's probably still some artists that just don't want to have anything to do with the NFT space. I think that in general, there's still a lot of misunderstanding around what Web 3.0 is and what it can enable, and there seems to, generally speaking, a level of negative sentiment towards NFTs in some categories of the music industry. But that seems to be sort of a blanket feeling or sentiment towards NFTs, not necessarily what we're doing.

[00:15:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I've heard that from, was just talking to a few people about this earlier this week, and we've heard it as well, just the polarizing nature of it that's bigger than HitPiece. And I think it's something for a lot of companies to navigate, but it's not necessarily at one company itself. But, I guess, leading up to the relaunch recently, were there any talks at all about rebranding or anything like that? 'Cause obviously I know that staying with the name is also a statement in itself. 

[00:16:22] Rory Felton: Yeah, clearly, we thought about every sort of path we could take. You know, we even thought like, do we want to do this? Like, is this worth the battle, right? And what we decided at the end of the day was, look, some folks thought we were doing something we were not doing at all. Our intent was completely misconstrued, and we felt like if we were to shut it all down and say, you know, good night. It's almost like the people that were creating this narrative would've won or that narrative would've become true, right? In our hearts, in our feeling, and everyone at the company that's at the company that was experienced all that, we all felt together, like, look, this isn't what we are doing. This isn't what we're all about. Like, we should stick with it and see this through because we felt like the brand was now very well known for better or worse, and it's up to us to sort of, to see it through and show to the world that, no, this isn't what we were trying to do. We're actually making something amazing, we think, for artists and so far, in the collections that we've launched has done really well for the artists that we've worked with. So that's what led to our decision to stick with the brand and keep going. We could have posited to a whole other brand, but everyone would just say, oh, those are the same folks that did this. So what would be the point of that? Because it's still me. Unlike a lot of people in this space, I've never been anonymous, right? I've always been completely public with who I am. HitPiece was on my LinkedIn, on my branding since early last year. I didn't hide from any of this. I engaged with anyone that wanted to have a conversation and still will. So it's not in our nature to hide or to run away. We think that Web 3.0 is still a huge game changer for both developing and establishing artists, and we want to provide incredible solutions for artists. 

[00:18:10] Dan Runcie: And what was the hardest part for you personally during all of this, as the founder, as the leader of the organization, but also as a human being dealing with the fallout and just trying to keep things moving?

[00:18:22] Rory Felton: Oh gosh. I think for a little bit, like, you know, personally I'm a father. I'm a husband, and so for me, it's just not letting what some people in social media or in the media might say about me impact who I know I am and who I am to my family. First and foremost, that's always most important to me. So that was probably the biggest challenge and, you know, clearly, it's not something that we wanted to happen, but we're really excited and bullish on the future right now. 

[00:18:48] Dan Runcie: For sure. And I think you have a lot of reasons, too. One of the artists that you have, ATL Jacob recently signed a deal with Republic Records. And I think he's someone who's definitely been rising quite a bit, and I assume that's a partnership that you are able to land in the most recent months. So what did that look like and what has it been like working alongside someone like him and then seeing the growth continue?

[00:19:12] Rory Felton: Yeah, Jacob was amazing. We are so blessed to really have just the perfect time to connect and meet him and hear about what he thought about this space, and what he wanted to do, and had that sort of build a collection together that really made sense for his brand and offer value to his super fans that really you can't get any other way. And so that's what we're really excited about. We, of course, knew he was in conversations with major labels at the time and knew something would happen in that space. We just feel honored and privileged that we get to be his partner for Web 3.0 because he's clearly an incredible talent that's had huge success on the producing side in the last couple of years, and I think we're going to see him break out as an artist over the next year and reach completely new milestones as well in his career.

[00:19:57] Dan Runcie: And what was it like for what he was able to do specifically on HitPiece? 'Cause I think a lot of people that see artists, they understand what it's like to be on a major label, but from an economic standpoint, like what they were able to do with a platform like yours, there still is a bit of questions, and this honestly may lead to some of the confusion some artists may have about NFTs, Web 3.0 in general, so obviously you may not be able to share all the details, but, like, what did things look like for him right now with what you've all been able to work on and what he's released, and what that ends up looking like for him? 

[00:20:27] Rory Felton: Yeah, so he's building a beautiful collection of art that's going to be completely collectible, and those tokens will be connected to incredible in real-life experiences. So some of those tokens can be redeemed for a studio session with ATL Jacob. So rather than, typically in the music industry, right, you have to go through a manager or you have to go through a record company. You have to go through gatekeepers to get to someone on Jacob's level. Here we're saying, no, let's break down all the barriers and say, actually through Web 3.0, you can have an incredible experience, and you could work with, you know, a producer that spends six months at the number one rap producer chart on Billboard. Like, you can actually work with them and make a record together, right? Experiences like that we think are incredible, exclusive merchandising items. And being able to essentially build a really connected VIP club of sorts that will get you access to experiences, to events, to really in- person, one on one time with these artists and producers that people love. You know, this is what I think Web 3.0 is all about. It's creating experiences that are unparalleled in other parts of the music industry. 

[00:21:40] Dan Runcie: So given those experiences, and I think those are definitely things that fans and everything value and things that he could likely build a career standalone on. Is there any particular question or thought about when an artist-producer like him goes in, does a deal with a major label as a bit of it like, oh, well why did you need to do that? Like, you could have continued working here, like, part of the promise is getting more inherent value for the work itself. Was there any tension there at all with him or even with some of the other artists? 

[00:22:11] Rory Felton: No, because every artist is different, and every artist gets different types of opportunities. And to me, Web 3.0 is not about being in Web 3.0 only and forgetting about the rest of the industry. It's not like you release your content or your music only as NFT and you don't do streaming, right? It's not like you do that only and you don't go on tour, or you don't sync your music to film and TV, or you don't do brand partnerships. It's just one part of the bigger puzzle of connecting with fans and connecting with bigger audiences. I think this huge opportunity for artists to connect with fans through Web 3.0 while also doing partnerships on the record side that they want to do that work best for them and their brand. For Jacob specifically, he has a whole record label, Wicked Money Family, that he can do. He can sign new artists, too, and they all can go through this bigger system. That's not something that not every artist can just do on their own, right, being able to plug into a bigger system is great for him. What it does do is it may limit what type of content an artist can mint as an NFT on their own, such as if you're in an exclusive recording contract, it may limit or prohibit what specifically you can do with music. But those are always open discussions, and every single recording contract is unique and specific and different, and provide artists and labels with all sorts of different rights.

[00:23:35] Dan Runcie: Got it. So for someone like him, and I guess as well thinking about how you're building the business, I do feel like your stance essentially is that a company like HitPiece can work, and they don't necessarily have to be exclusively here. They could work with majors, they could work with others. Do you feel like that mentality is similar to other founders you may talk to in Web 3.0 or with NFTs? Because some of the folks I talk to, there's a bit more of that dogmatic approach where the purpose of our platform is that you don't need to do that. 

[00:24:08] Rory Felton: Yeah. So first and foremost, every partnership we have with an artist is non-exclusive. They could do a collection with us and go to a collection with anyone else or on their own using their own software at any time. That's something that I believe in. I believe in, like, we're not here to be an exclusive partner in any way. So I believe in artist freedom. Artists should have the freedom to do a record deal if they want to. Artists should also have the freedom to say, hey, look, I'm going to stay independent. I'm going to build up a balance sheet of masters and publishing that I own, and I'm going to leverage that in the way that I want to. I think every path is different for each artist and some work for others, and some don't work for others. And I've seen artists stay independent, build balance sheets of masters, and publish they own, and be tremendously successful. They build these multimillion-dollar businesses that they can operate and function like their own business. And then at the same time, that can just build up their leverage for if a major label wants to do a deal with them, they're saying, hey, look, my business is already doing millions of dollars a year. If you want to be in business with my business, you've gotta make it worth my while. To me, it's about, I think Web 3.0 increases leverage for artists if they embrace it and engage that community. But by no means would I look at it as a dogmatic Web 3.0 anti-record company approach. I don't think that's it at all. I think we're already seeing major labels enter Web 3.0 and allow their artists to try things in Web 3.0 that I think is really exciting. And every conversation I have with major labels and people at those companies is it's curiosity, it's intriguing, it's fun. They are by no means looking at it as a do-or-die or like you said, a dogmatic approach. I come from the music industry. I think maybe some other founders in this space don't have two decades of music experience, and so they're wanting to disrupt an industry that they think needs disruption. Whereas I know all these, all my friends that work at labels or at management companies, I mean, they bleed for artists. They put their heart and soul into trying to break new artists, and these are the people you want to be a part of your business, right? You don't want to just alienate them and cut them off. That being said, historically, some record deals have been a little unfair for the artists, right? And I'm not trying to say that that's not the case, but I think innovation like Web 3.0 is continuing to increase artist leverage and continuing to give them more options. More options is really what it's all about. 

[00:26:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think even the point that you mentioned at the beginning of the conversation, just your stance on streaming itself and what it unlocked for the business, that is a bit more of that holistic perspective as opposed to some others that, you know, I think the belief that music should have inherent value, which it should. I think it's a bit of that dichotomy, and to be honest, you hear less of that from the record labels with, most of the time, it maybe from some of the founders and folks outside of the industry. But it's a fascinating time. It's a fascinating time. And I know that with you, you're not just thinking about NFTs and things minting for HitPiece, you're also having a metaverse, you have the Lounge and having that as an opportunity for artists, and I know that's something that's continuing developing as well. What does that look like and what does that opportunity look like for artists? 

[00:27:34] Rory Felton: Yeah, so one, we realized there's a small but growing population of people that love to collect music as NFT format. I think of NFT as it applies to audio music as a new format, just like there was vinyl, there was downloads, there was streaming. NFT is sort of a new type of format for music, and there wasn't really a centralized place to play all your music. There are a couple of apps butting up that allow you to sort of plug into your wallet and play your music collection. We wanted to create a space that allowed a collector to display NFTs that they're collecting from music artists on the wall, but also put them on a record shelf if they're music NFTs and allow people, allow them to come in and play their own music, allow other people to come into a fans room and play their music. I've seen that a lot of these metaverse spaces that fans are using to share their NFTs are almost like part business card part, like, showing off and bragging to their friends and their community what they own, what they collect. It reminds me a lot as being a teenager of collecting CDs and records that were hard to find from really, really new artists and sort of bragging with your friends that you got to them earlier than they did. And we wanted to sort of mimic this experience in a really cool, beautiful, metaverse space and also be a space that artists could brand and create their own version of, as well as invite their VIP community to be a part of, be it virtual record listening parties or virtual tour kickoffs where they could display or present new music. One functionality we have that artists are taking advantage of is token-gated releases. So they might release regular releases like they always do but put out maybe a limited edition mixtape that is only available to people who buy an NFT to access it. And so you go into the Lounge, our system reads that you have that NFT in your wallet and it unlocks access to music that you wouldn't otherwise have. That doesn't just have to be music. It can be all sorts of content. So the idea is you're rewarding your most engaged community token holders with really cool experiences. We speak with artists that want to create experiences that get updated every single month, so keeps fans coming back to this space that they almost treat like a social media platform or like a website, but the artist gets to control it entirely themselves.

[00:29:58] Dan Runcie: I feel like the fan piece of this is the unique piece of this, and I know that's a bit of the broader conversations that people have had about the metaverse, but being able to have that type of way to actually physically show what you have, and I think this is a piece that was missing a bit from, I'll call it the first stage of the NFT boom, right? We saw a lot of people changing their profile picks, but ultimately, how do you create the opportunity for people to have some type of visual that you can see, right? Like, people are buying vinyls right now. People want to be able to have those vinyls visible or no different than buying DVDs or VHS tapes back in the day. Part of it was the medium itself, but you also, it was a statement of who you are. Having some type of collection that can show that I think it's valuable, plus all of the exclusive perks that they can get from their favorite artist or from their type of experiences. I do think that that is something that a lot of fans would value, assuming that it can be somewhere where the people that they want to see those things also are engaged in.

[00:30:59] Rory Felton: Yeah, we see there's millions of people around the world that build up massive record collections on their wall. And when you go into their house, it's often the main feature of their house is their record collection. And oftentimes, that's tied to a really high-end audio system as well, depending on where you're at and your lifestyle, right? And we wanted to sort of create that experience for anyone or everyone in the metaverse space. And so that's what the Lounge is built around, is sort of to cater to that type of collector, if you will. I think we're still very early in the Web 3.0 NFT space, clearly with where the economy's at. I think we're going to start to see some huge growth over the next year or two, but we wanted to build these tools now for people so that when more and more people start to come into this space every month, every quarter, they're already ready for them to sort of plug into. And in fact, in a certain sense, it provides more utility for all NFTs. So you could buy music NFTs anywhere you want to on the internet and be able to pull them into this Lounge space we've created for them to perform, to play, and to share with their friends and their community.

[00:32:05] Dan Runcie: So this leads me to the age-old question I'm sure every venture capitalist asks at some point, how do you compete this against Facebook or Meta and their offering to eventually try to do this similar type of thing? But obviously, you have a more of a specific community. But I do know that with a lot of the different types of metaverse experiences, that type of thought is something that's likely in the back of the minds for a lot of founders.

[00:32:30] Rory Felton: I think that there's clearly dozens of metaverse spaces that already exist. We're not necessarily looking to create an entire universe. We just want to create experiences and artist-branded experiences. And I think potentially we see a future where these artist-branded virtual slash metaverse experiences can be interoperable with a metaverse space that Meta is building or with the other ones that exist right now, such as Sandbox and Decentraland. We, of course, being a blockchain-based company, we believe in decentralization. We think that that's a value to be recognized and to be held up. And so if we continue to see other metaverse spaces built on the same or similar blockchains, I think we're going to see them be interoperable in new ways that may currently just not exist yet. 

[00:33:22] Dan Runcie: And would the same type of logic apply as well for the marketplace that you all have, given folks like OpenSea or some of the other broader platforms? 

[00:33:32] Rory Felton: So our big differentiator from a platform like OpenSea is we only allow authenticated artists to mint NFTs in our platform. One of the big challenges I see with some of the secondary-focused NFT marketplaces is that it's a wild west still. There's an insane amount of content that infringes on other people's rights that use all sorts of artists' name, image, like this audio without any sort of permission, right? And unlike a lot of people in this space or some people in this space, we actually believe in copyright. We think that's really valuable for artists and artists investors, and we really wanted to make sure that we prevent it as much as possible, people minting content that they didn't control through our platform. And so when fans or collectors come to HitPiece.com, they can feel assured that everything on our platform is authentic, is real, is coming from the artist that says it's coming from. And that's also why we were the first NFT company to integrate with Audible Magic. Audible Magic allows us to scan every single piece of audio file that gets uploaded to HitPiece to be minted as an NFT. And we test that against their massive database of over a hundred million songs to see if that song has been registered previously or as a copyrighted work from a record company or an artist. And we've already been able to say, hang on, that song's copyright. We need to confirm whether this artist actually controls the copyright of this audio file. And so we want to make sure that only the authenticated parties, the owners of works are actually able to mint NFTs of their creative content through HitPiece. So that's a big difference I see versus like the secondary markets of the world. But we also think ours is a little bit more just music-focused, right? Music NFTs are a little different than PFP projects or artwork NFTs, and so it really requires a different experience than maybe what some of the secondary markets that appeal to every one offer, if that makes sense.

[00:35:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. And I assume that some of the guardrails there to make sure that things are authenticated, to make sure it has the right copyright and licensing, also tie back to ensuring that what had happened back in February doesn't happen again. So part of that authentication, I'm sure likely may slow down some of the process, but it is how you ensure that everything that is there and what is transparent and seen is ultimately what you're trying to actually sell. 

[00:35:57] Rory Felton: Yeah. I don't think an experience that we've built, that you can go to HitPiece.com and see right now really exists anywhere else, and we've really tried to focus on making, one, authenticated protecting rights holders. And two, just make it super simple and easy for both artists who are new to this space that may not fully understand all the language and this new terminology that's come around, make it super easy for them to create their own collections and start minting NFTs with their creative content. And then also just make it super easy for music fans, you know, that haven't purchased an NFT to be able to collect one. I would say that really a small, small number of music fans overall have still entered Web 3.0 or acquired an NFT, be it for free or purchase, and there's still a huge amount of education that platforms like ourselves need to do and others about how to onboard into this space.

[00:36:52] Dan Runcie: So for you all, specifically, with the folks you have on board before and up to this point, is ATL Jacob, is he the most successful artist or the artist that's made the most money on the platform so far? 

[00:37:04] Rory Felton: So ATL Jacob's collection has not launched yet. We have launched a variety of collections from artists like Surf, and we have a couple of collections dropping tomorrow. This interview, of course, will be out after this date. From King Midas, who's a Baltimore artist, and from Pyrex Whippa, who's a multi-platinum producer slash artist, a part of the 808 Mafia. He's worked with artists like Future, Juice WRLD, DaBaby. And his collection also involves granting people rights to collaborate with him in the studio. Some actually get a limited-edition skateboard from him. And also some of them actually get a limited edition beat kit from him as well. So there's all these cool, both digital and in real-life experiences, tied to token ownership, which we believe in. 

[00:37:50] Dan Runcie: No, that's solid. 

[00:37:51] Rory Felton: But beyond those, we do have some other, like, multi-platinum slash diamond level music artists, Grammy-nominated artists that we're looking to announce really, really soon.

[00:38:02] Dan Runcie: Any hints as to who they may be? 

[00:38:05] Rory Felton: I'll just say we have a lot of love for Atlanta. 

[00:38:08] Dan Runcie: Okay. 

[00:38:08] Rory Felton: Atlanta moves the culture. Atlanta's, like, where my heart is. I love going to Atlanta. I think everyone in Atlanta is just coming. Being in LA for 20 years, like Atlanta's so nice. You have that southern hospitality, but you have that hustle and that combination of both. Like, I just love being in Atlanta. I love the vibe of Atlanta. 

[00:38:25] Dan Runcie: All right. We'll definitely look out for that one, for sure. Thinking about the company and hearing how you're building it, though, it does make me think about this article that you had written a couple of years back. I think it was an article you posted on LinkedIn actually is like, How to Win the Music Industry of 2019-2025, and you're describing what the type of company would look like and what type of things they need to have in place. And now that we're a couple of years past that, what are you seeing in the industry now, and is there any specific company that you think is checking all those boxes? 

[00:39:00] Rory Felton: Oh, man. I think when I wrote that, it was one of those, like late night, man, why doesn't this company exist? You know, if I had a hundred million dollars, this is what I would do, right? And it's interesting, I see companies doing bits and pieces of that, and what's fascinating is like I sometimes forget that I published that article, and I've even had, you know, investors and venture capital people reach out, nothing to do with HitPiece. They're just really curious about what I wrote, and they're like, this is it. How do we do this? And it's been fascinating to see that piece impact, if you will. No one's doing all of that, but I'll gladly compliment folks that I think are moving in that direction. United Masters and what Steve Stoute built, I think, is incredible. If you would've told me several years ago that someone could enter the music distribution space with a similar offering to other platforms out there, I never would've thought someone could truly compete. But kudos to him and his team, they've completely proved me, and I'll think a lot of people wrong. They've made a huge impact in, again, creating more opportunities for artists who can own their own content and not necessarily feel like they're stuck to have to do the traditional record deal. I think what they're doing is pretty amazing. Let's see, who else? I got to give out props to Downtown Music Holdings group. I think they're doing a huge amount of innovation in this space, both on the record side, on the distribution side, and on the publishing side. I'm a huge fan of Songtrust and what they built and that offering. I tell every music artist to work with if they do not have a publishing deal, sign up with Songtrust. It's a super easy admin deal that just creates a great solution that captures money that you just cannot capture any other way. I try to tell every music artist, I'm like, look, if you're writing your own music, you're writing your own songs, you're not going to get all your money that's due to you, just through your PRO. Artists, unfortunately, they're so busy, so much going on, they don't fully understand that. And so it's, like, the artists that I've seen turn on to a platform like Songtrust, they've literally turned on five figures plus in revenue in a quarter because that money is just sitting there if they don't capture it, eventually just goes away, which is really sad. So those are my shout-outs. Those are companies that I think are doing it well. I think with that piece, if I were to critique it now, I think it's a little too broad. There's a little too much going on for one company to do. But I'm a big fan of companies that, you know, believe in artistic freedom and innovation and providing more tools and opportunities for artists while also actually creating real success for them.

[00:41:26] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think what sticks out about those two companies is both the partnerships and the fact that there's, you know, overall companies that are tying both of them together, right? So United Masters is obviously tied to the work that Stoute had done with or is currently doing with Translation on the ad side. And then that also informs so many of the partnerships and just how he has been able to help think and expand things there. And then Downtown, specifically how they've been able to just reorganize a few of the things and then restructure to just understand, okay, what could that stack look like. What could it have to have all of these companies underneath, but in this way that feels practical, but not in this way of, you know, a company trying to check every box that's the hottest topic right now. 

[00:42:12] Rory Felton: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think companies are wise to, that are established in at scale. They're wise to take their time with Web 3.0 versus jump into it head-on per se. And I would encourage everyone to experiment. I think you can experiment in this space and try new things without having to go completely in. And of course, we're a great solution to experiment with. But there's clearly a variety of opportunities out there to do things. And quite frankly, no one knows exactly how the NFT innovation's going to be utilized in a few years from now, right? We have our hunch. We think it's going to be connected to real-life experiences and real amazing virtual experiences. However, I think there's all sorts of innovation that maybe hasn't even been created yet for its application, such as to ticketing and other categories as well. 

[00:43:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah, there's so much more to explore. We're still in the early innings with this. I'm excited to see what's next. But before we wrap things up, let's talk about what's next for you all. What does 2023 look like? What are the big things on the roadmap? 

[00:43:17] Rory Felton: Yeah, so as you mentioned, we've been building the Lounge metaverse space to connect artists and fans as well as give fans a great way to display and show off the collections that they own. So that's going to be launching soon. We clearly have some really amazing collections coming up from some really top-tier artists that we're excited to announce really soon as well. And then we fully built out now this completely self-service solution for independent artists to come in and start minting NFTs with their content. We haven't really focused on presenting that or pushing that yet to the independent community at scale. But that's something that we are looking forward to. We felt that it was best, hey, look, we want to establish that there is interest and demand for this space. That's why we focused on more established artists, artists with audiences initially, but really we think this space is for everyone. And we think that the smallest artists on the planet can actually benefit from Web 3.0 in a way that maybe streaming isn't changing the game for them right now. For instance, we've worked with baby developing artists that are making more money from Web 3.0 in one launch of an NFT collection than they would over two to three months from streaming. And I think this again goes back to humanity and society sort of revaluing music. In general, we all think music's the coolest thing in the world. We all think music is the most divine thing that we get to participate in as humans. And so we want to revalue it in a way that maybe NFTs allow us to that technology hasn't enabled in the past. And I think more than ever this concept of a thousand true fans is truer than ever, right, if an artist doesn't need to be a pop star to make a living. They really just need to cater to a niche of dedicated fans that love what they're doing. And NFTs and Web 3.0 really allow that artist to benefit from that type of model more than ever before. 

[00:45:08] Dan Runcie: I know. It's fascinating. It's an exciting time to see all the developments and what's going to come down the pipe for you all, what's going to come down for everyone else. It's going to be an exciting time. That's why so many of us are in this industry, right? But before we let you go though, where can people follow along with HitPiece if they want to stay and tap with what you have coming on, or if they want to follow along, where should they go?

[00:45:28] Rory Felton: Yeah, so clearly you can go to HitPiece.com. You can just put in your email if you don't want to sign up yet and just follow updates from us on our email list. You can find us on Twitter or Instagram @joinHitPiece. You can even follow me on Twitter or Instagram if you'd like, @RoryFelton. Everything's open and my life is really an open book for everyone.

[00:45:48] Dan Runcie: Awesome. Thanks, Rory. This is great. Thanks for coming on. 

[00:45:51] Rory Felton: Thanks, Dan, for your time. We really appreciate it.

[00:45:54] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2883 no How Curren$y Played The Long Game With His Career & Jet Life https://www.trapital.com/podcast Most artists want career growth and they want it fast — sometimes to a fault. This is where Curren$y is an outlier. From the jump, Curren$y set out to grow both his career and fanbase slowly but steadily. He successfully did that and it’s a reason why he’s not only stayed in the rap game for almost twenty years, but is now still earning more money, and at a career point where most of his peers coming up have already fizzled out. Curren$y and his longtime manager, Mousa, joined me on this week’s episode to explain how zigging when others zagged contributed to their career longevity. One instance is leaving his hometown Cash Money Records label to create their own, Jet Life. The two have been able to morph the brand into a full-on business empire that now includes apparel, athlete management, products, and more verticals on top of the music label.  The duo built Jet Life on the back of touring and being true to their audience. To do so, they turned down more brand partnerships they can remember and even music festival appearances at times — no matter how good the bag was for each. These trend-bucking moves were covered at length in our interview. Here’s what we covered: [3:15] New Orleans folks are immune to heat [4:44] Mousa and Curren$y relationship began in 2005 [8:49] Growing Jet Life business beyond a record label [11:45] Turning down non-authentic business opportunities [15:59] Emphasizing touring early in Curren$y’s career [19:21] Releasing an EP as an NFT [23:52] Curren$y’s take on streaming farms [29:47] Macro-view of Jet Life revenue streams [34:47] Touring is cornerstone of Jet Life business [37:08] Performing on own shows vs. music festivals [43:48] Festival money goes to sports car dealership [45:16] Curren$y’s partnership with NASCAR (and problems with Coca-Cola) [50:37] What’s the secret to a great artist-manager relationship?   Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Mousa Hamdan & Curren$y, @MOUSA504 & @spitta_andretti     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Curren$y: You can always expand and try new things, but if it feels wrong on the core, then you're setting yourself up. We never made a move like that. No matter what deal comes across the table 'cause he's money first. But he'll tell the people, the check writer like, man, just let me talk to bro. Because at the end of the day, he's going to hear me say it's half a million dollars, but he might say it's a boring job and he might not want to do it.  [00:00:32] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:54] Dan Runcie: Listen, you're going to love today's episode. It is with one of the most successful independent artists in the game and his longtime manager. We got Curren$y and we got Mousa. If you've been following Curren$y's journey for a while, you know that he was originally on No Limit Records 20 years ago. He left the record label. He then went to join Young Money. He was a little early on the Young Money Train, but he ended up leaving the record label before Nicki and before Drake blew up and he started his own. He started Jet Life, and he's been building up his career as an independent artist, and it's been great to see how he has navigated both how he releases music and also how he approached his business overall. And that was a big focus of this episode. We talked about his strategy for releasing music, and Curren$y is someone that is very prolific in terms of the amount of music that he puts out, but it also gets him plenty of opportunities to be able to go on tour, to be able to have several other business ventures that they have through Jet Life and through other areas. We talked about what they're doing in cannabis as well. We talked about the nightclub that they have, the apparel business, and a whole lot more. We also talked about a few partnerships that you may be surprised by, but I still think that fit well within the ethos for what Jet Life is and what Curren$y is trying to build. We even talked about some of the movie deals and opportunities that Curren$y had turned down. I don't want to spoil it. It's a really good one, but this was a really fascinating conversation, is also been great to just see how long these two have stuck together. If you're a big fan of this podcast, these are the type of episodes that you come for. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Curren$y and Mousa.  [00:02:41] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're joined by the duo themselves. We got Curren$y and we got Mousa here, the artist-manager combination. How are you guys doing?  [00:02:49] Curren$y: Man, we can't complain. The weather is nice outside and it is been pretty bad out here in Orleans. It's been a hundred degrees and raining every day, but right now it's sunny, 86 degrees, you know what I'm saying? I got long sleeves on, top down, having a good day. I can't complain.  [00:03:07] Dan Runcie: See, that's the one thing about folks I know from New Orleans, like it could be 86 degrees and y'all are still in long sleeves. Y'all are still in hoodies.  [00:03:15] Curren$y: Well, it is, well, because it is the heat, we're already adjusting. It's just hot in here. So now we've gone more fashion-forward, bro. It's like, just fuck it, bro. Wear what you want to wear because it's still going to be 190 degrees no matter what. So just go for it. I don't really condone that lifestyle unless you have a car. A lot of my younger brothers I see walking up and down the street, and they definitely look like they're about to commit crimes because it's a hundred degrees and they got on the hoodie and I'm, like, weary of, I'm like, hold on, you know what I'm saying, because, fuck, that don't make no sense. You dressed for action. But if you are in the car, you are in the office, you are in the studio. That's where that look really originated. People always tell me, II'm dressed like that forever, but it's been because most of my life has been like tour bus, studio, even when it wasn't me, I was like a little guy on Masterpiece bus. It was 60 degrees, you know what I'm saying? And these big mansions, it's cold as shit. So I just grew acclimated to dressing like that. I think I might have spearheaded that. I honestly, I think that I may have spearheaded that, but what haven't we spearheaded over here, you know? [00:04:25] Dan Runcie: It's true, especially folks at New Orleans, folks like y'all are trendsetters. And one of the things that I feel like sets y'all apart is that you've been doing this for so long, and you've been doing this for so long together. I mean, Mousa, you've been managing Curren$y now for, since '05, right? I know you do 'em before, but you started managing, like, '05, right? [00:04:44] Mousa Hamdan: We're friends before, but definitely since '05, since he joined in with Lil Wayne, with Young Money, Cash Money. So I think that's when he brought me on and asked me to come on as his manager.  [00:04:53] Curren$y: Yep. Yeah.  [00:04:54] Mousa Hamdan: And you know... [00:04:55] Curren$y: As soon as there was business to manage.  [00:04:58] Mousa Hamdan: Right.  [00:04:58] Curren$y: You know, right? While I was just slinging t-shirts, like ordering 28 t-shirts on a month, pressing CDs upstairs at my apartment, that was easy to do. When it began to grow and I saw, like, my two homes wasn't going to be enough to handle it, you know, what could I do but reach out to the one homie who I knew forever who don't want to smoke no weed with me, who don't want to get drunk with me, you know what I'm saying? Like, who's just like totally, his high is the business, deals closed and stuff gone successfully is him having a drink, you know what I'm saying? So it worked. It works like that. [00:05:36] Mousa Hamdan: Definitely. I like achieving goals. You know, I'm a goal seeker. And once you achieve one goal, set another one, you know? And that's my inspiration is to see how big we could really take this Jet Life, how, you know, how big deal this will be, and how long we can make it last. I mean, I thought about this morning, I was talking to one of my other homies, I was like, we've been in this game a minute, bro. Like, and he was like, look, I've been home for a little while and y'all been doing this a long time. So I say, yeah, definitely, but we not done, you know. We’re nowhere near done. We really just starting, we really starting to grow even more now.  [00:06:12] Curren$y: That's crazy to say that, and that's really the truth, to be here in the game. Like, Jet Life, we're like over a decade, and each year it just gets bigger. That's really what you want. It's not a big, hasn't been just one big explosion. It's a slow burn. But it is guaranteed. And we've always grown. A lot of times you see people struggling, like, not to lose ground in the game, you know, and stay relevant. And that's never been a problem with us because we've been blessed to be able to, like, generate or, like, create our own world, you know what I'm saying? And the people who listen to our music or who dress, some people dress only in Jet Life apparel. And it is because they don't give a fuck about nothing else, you know what I'm saying? They've had their time to see what the world had to offer, and they saw that ours was just uncompromised. So they lend themselves to it a hundred percent. And that's been enough to sustain, like, the lifestyle that we have. And the people that support us, they like to pass by the Jet Life store just to see what cars we might have outside. So they continue to support us because now we're going to park more and more shit. Like, they the ones who help us do it, you know? So it's good. It's good.  [00:07:27] Mousa Hamdan: It definitely is. It's really a lifestyle, you know? I think it's, you know, from the beginning I remember, Curren$y said in interviews as well as told me directly, like, you know, his vision of seeing how Jet Life and how he wanted to grow. He always said it was like a balloon. And I listened, I heard that, and I was like, he's right. He's like, you could either, you could blow air in it fast and it's going to blow big and then it's going to explode and it's over. Or you could blow in it slow and it's going to slowly blow.  [00:07:57] Curren$y: Yeah. Fucking right.  [00:07:58] Mousa Hamdan: Then you show the longevity. And that's what we did. We're blowing it slow.  [00:08:02] Curren$y: Yep. [00:08:03] Mousa Hamdan: But look at us. We're still here. There's a lot of people that we saw that came before us and during us who we feel like, oh yeah, they got the light quick and they blew up fast. But then what happened? And you know, they're not around no more. [00:08:16] Curren$y: Something explodes, it ceases to exist. [00:08:19] Mousa Hamdan: It's done. [00:08:20] Curren$y: I've never seen anything, you know what I'm saying, explode that still had it ever, you know?  [00:08:26] Dan Runcie: Right, oh yeah. You know, and I feel like with y'all, specifically, you're able to see the trajectory. You're able to see everything that you've accomplished, too, because I look at Jet Life, and it started as the imprint for your record label, but now you have your apparel, you also have the other businesses you have. How would you describe the current businesses? What are the current things under Jet Life right now?  [00:08:49] Mousa Hamdan: Well, we got, of course, like you said, it started with records, Jet Life Records. And then it went to, we started doing tour merch, which grew into Jet Life Apparel. We were in now Jet Life Athletics. So we started to do deals with managing athletes and growing that brand. Then of course, we've other stuff that's not necessarily labeled Jet Life, but we've opened up a nightclub in New Orleans, so so that's something that's coming.  [00:09:16] Curren$y: We got a big footprint in the cannabis community. We got a couple of other startups, like a coffee shop and a cereal bar we're going to launch. We already have two films out, so, I mean, if you want to say Jet Life Films is in existence, that is true. It's so much stuff that we do, but the circle is so tight, like, nobody's going to tell the other one. Like, bro, you realize what we doing because we are still in the midst of doing it. Like, an outside person would have to come in and really show us how many businesses and what's all under the umbrella 'cause we really just wake up and try to, like, just make sure we make something happen, you know, every day. If you want to label it and put a name on it, then, it was news to me, right now just listening to how much stuff we have going on.  [00:10:04] Mousa Hamdan: We forgot Starting Line Hobbies. [00:10:06] Curren$y: Yeah, we got hobby shop bro, like that. See? So the more you sit down…  [00:10:11] Mousa Hamdan: We forget some of the business. But they exist and they're profitable, right? [00:10:16] Curren$y: He's got an auto body shop, it's still in existence. That's really where a lot of it comes from, his whole foray into it all was being able to survive if one thing fell down. Even though the music was the one that paved the way and drew the attention, the industry is fickle. So you see people like, we see them rise and you think they going to build this whole empire, they end up with a warehouse full of shit. They can't move bobbleheads of themselves. Nobody wants t-shirts, nobody wants home furnishing. Nobody wants it, fucking goes that way, you know what I'm saying? And we've been blessed to like, now we got two or three warehouses, you know what I'm saying? But we're moving the shit, you know. So it's just about staying true and not, we never really tried to do too much, nothing outside of what felt right to us. You can always expand and try new things, but if it feels wrong on the core, then you're setting yourself up. We never made a move like that. No matter what deal comes across the table 'cause he's money first. But he'll tell the people, the check writer like, man, just let me talk to bro. Because at the end of the day, he's going to hear me say it's half a million dollars, but he might say it's a boring job and he might not want to do it even though it's half a million dollars. So he'll just check with me, you know what I'm saying? We probably go and do the 'shit anyway 'cause it's half a million dollars. But he checks with me because in my heart of hearts, I might want to say no, but I got a kid and shit.  [00:11:45] Mousa Hamdan: I'll definitely ask him. Do you want to do this though?  [00:11:49] Curren$y: Yeah. And I got respect for him for doing that. The fact that he compromised his money mentality that asks me that much, gives me the strength to be able to say, you know what, fuck it, bro, you gave, I'll give. I'm going to come and do this shit, you know what I'm saying? And then lo and behold everybody wins, you know?  [00:12:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah. What's an example of something that you have turned down? Like, Mousa, 'cause it sounds like you're the one that's seeing the things and you're thinking about, oh, this is the bag, but is this something that fits with the Jet Life lifestyle? [00:12:18] Curren$y: There's a lot of those, like, TV shit that'll come across, you know what I'm saying? I hope that he knows, I don't care. So he would say, I'm going to jump out in front of you, like, you don't see because these people still come up with more and more ideas. And eventually, they might put, they might table something that we want to pick up. But we've slammed them because it's like, bro, you know, just looking at something where they say, well, he can say it in his own words, but the way they phrase it makes me like, I'll never put this in my own words, I don't want to fucking do it. You know, just fuck it, you know what I'm saying? Or like post, they'll try, you know, they'll pay you for social media stuff just to say you like something or you can't wait for something to fucking hit the theaters. And I'm like, you know what? Fuck no. I don't want to say that. Because as soon as I post this, my fucking true audience is going to say, you know, how much did you get, bro? They'll say shit like that. I don't want to play them like that.  [00:13:15] Mousa Hamdan: Yeah. I think we've known each other long enough and I know his answers on some things. Some things I won't even bring to him. [00:13:22] Curren$y: For sure.  [00:13:23] Mousa Hamdan: You know, we had some stuff like, you know, I'll be honest with you, like, you know, media companies that come and say, well, you know, let me post this on your page or do this, that, and the others, and it's clickbait. And he was like, nah, bro, I don't want my fans clicking on that.  [00:13:37] Curren$y: Yeah, I don't want that. I'm the one who have to answer for this shit. [00:13:41] Mousa Hamdan: I don't care how much it is. And the fans aren't crazy. They'll be like, Curren$y, that shit was clickbait, bro.  [00:13:46] Curren$y: They're like, what? Or you had to, bro? Like, I have all that kind of shit. So I'm just like, let's save the company who wants to pay us the embarrassment of when they realized this was not organic and it didn't cross over. Like, now they won't want to spend any money. They may not want to spend money with us later on, on something that might actually work, you know? So it's just better to just say, you know, it is better to protect yourself that way. You end up in the long run, you still make that money. A few times people have double-backed because they realize, you know what, that was kind of lame. I can't believe we asked them to do that shit. And then they come back with something way dope after they've researched me, you know? 'Cause immediately you do a Google search and you are like, all right, cool. We'll get him to do the new weed spray. Let's get him to endorse this new air freshener that kills the weeds, man. Like, bro, the fuck? Like, I'm not even living like that. I'm actually a boss and I don't have to conceal the weed smell in my fucking life, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not promoting shit.  [00:14:46] Dan Runcie: I'm even come to you with a deal like that though, knowing you.  [00:14:50] Mousa Hamdan: Yeah, yeah. They'll bring all type of deals, bro. They'll try and get you out of character if you let them. You know, they'll push the button.  [00:14:57] Curren$y: But it feels like trolling a lot of the time. Like, are they trying to see if I would do this, you know what I'm saying? [00:15:03] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:15:03] Mousa Hamdan: I don't think they understand that he's not saying he's true to his lifestyle. He is actually true to it. He's not going to do anything that's going to bend.  [00:15:11] Curren$y: It's not about money. We got enough pots on the stove. It's a six-burner stove. And we have pots with food and all of them are cooking, you know what I'm saying? So when somebody comes with the bullshit, it's like, all right, let's just go dip in this, right, quick. You know, like I I've done that with music, when I feel like, it is just sometimes I get a little down on myself just based on the climate of music, you know? And I'll fall back and maybe I'll just come up here and we'll just make a whole collection of clothes at that time, you know? And we were able to keep the lights on and shit through the apparel. If I said fuck it from here on end, you know what I'm saying? But it just so happens, like, I get my win and it is fun again, and I want to do it. You know, so we're lucky as shit. [00:15:59] Dan Runcie: That makes sense, yeah. It's a good position to be in, right? You understand your brand, you understand what makes sense. You're only going to do certain types of deals. And I feel like this goes back to the way that you just go about this industry overall, right? You were early in terms of, let me put out my music and if people get it for free, they may get it for free, but let me go make the money on tour. Let me go make the money with these other business interests.  [00:16:24] Curren$y: Yeah, because I mean, it's, shrinkage. It didn't matter how much music, like, what you do, how much you put behind the budget and what the labels do and all this shit. These people were just, our music was being stolen. This was during the time of, like, manufacturing jewel cases and all this shit that the company had to do, so that affected how much money they could give you. And then at the end of the day, everybody had the album a week before any damn, you know? So you can't feed your family like that. But what you can do, and what I did do is, and also when I did that, it was out of necessity. I didn't have no money to pay everybody for beats. But I could download Dr. Dre's instrumental for free. And as long as I don't sell this bitch, he's not coming for me, you know? I'm going to put it out for free. People going to love it. They're going to want me to come and wrap the motherfucker and they're going to pay however much it costs, you know, so that's how we did it. You know, that's just, like utilizing your natural resources. Like, what's growing in the land? Like, what's there? Just looked around and worked off what's growing out of the ground when you don't have the funds to do it. Like, you know, and you're creating business. Like, that's all we've ever done. And the more resources and the more materials we gain, you know, from gaining leverage or going up a level, then we start another joint, you know? Cause we got more to start with, 'Cause we, we did it with zero. So now it's insane. Like, we're just throwing darts at the board, like, fuck it, let's try and start a speedboat racing team tomorrow, you know what I'm saying? Like, fuck, whatever is whatever you want to do. And I've seen people do it. I’ve seen Master P do it because he had, like, with the bread to try it, you got to go for it. But what you had, but his circle is, was so large at the time with no limit. Like, first crack some ideas, not the best ideas, but you got love for everybody, so you going to roll the dice with everything they come with. You going to try, see, but what's working for us is we don't have that many people, like, around, you know what I'm saying? Like, as far as where the love is, it is right, it is in the room, so we not going to bounce. So if we try each other's ideas, one of 'em going to work 'cause it was just to, you got 19 people in here trying to, you know, tell you what to do and you want to keep everybody happy. You try, you going to end up trying to, like, start a golf cart company and, like, do spacewalks and sell reptiles and wild pets and then just doing everything that they ask you to do. And some of it's not going to work.  [00:18:59] Dan Runcie: And I feel like with that, too, is just understanding your brand, understanding what's effective. And I know last year you had released an EP as an NFT, and I know this was the time when a lot of people were first discovering what an NFT is and things like that. What was that like? Because I know that was something that you didn't necessarily need to do to reach your fan base and do everything you wanted to do. [00:19:21] Curren$y: It wasn't to increase the fan base. It was to make our listeners aware that we are in touch with what's going on, and we are going to make sure that you guys aren't left behind as far as having Jet Life representation because we know you wear this shit every day. We know this is all you're listening to. So if the whole world converted to the metaverse, and everybody just wore headsets and live like that, how will you survive if your life is Jet Life? We got to give you something in this shit too. Rather we understand it or not, we have to learn to understand it, to become a part, to take care of y'all out there because it's real, you know? No matter how imaginary it may seem, it's real, you know what I'm saying? It's intangible, but it's a real thing. So we had to be able to provide something for our people 'cause they were there, you know? You look out of touch and, like, not sharp, not able to move, you know, then people wash their hands of you. Other companies won't want to collaborate with us that much because it won't appear that we are in the know, where if you have a big company that's not doing anything in that world, they're like, oh shit, look at Jet Life, well, let's just fuck with them. Let's put some bridge in them because they can handle this for us, blah, blah, and that be our representation 'cause we're far too big to even try to learn and far too big and far too old to even try to learn that shit, you know what I'm saying? So once they saw we did, that makes us look, you know, mobile, you know what I'm saying?  [00:20:51] Mousa Hamdan: We have to exist in the future. You know, at the end of the day, we got to do what we have to do to let everybody, like he said, we're in the know, you know, we're aware of what's going on, what's coming, what's worth getting involved with, what's not. [00:21:05] Curren$y: And we going to ride with y'all because if it crashes, all us, then it did it off of us. You know what I'm saying? Fuck it. We going to roll too.  [00:21:12] Mousa Hamdan: And even back a long time ago, I don't know if Curren$y even remember this, we did a deal back then with BitTorrent that we released a mixtape on BitTorrent, and it was 'cause the relationship we had with BitTorrent, they wanted to move away from everybody feeling that BitTorrent was a piracy site, and they wanted to like, well what if we give away something that we actually want shared?  [00:21:38] Curren$y: Yeah.  [00:21:38] Mousa Hamdan: And I remember we did that, I think we had like 156 million shares. [00:21:45] Curren$y: Yeah.  [00:21:45] Mousa Hamdan: I told the record label that we were in a deal with at the time and they was like, nah, I got to see that. They didn't believe it. Well, like, what? Don't worry about it. You don't have to believe it. And that's why we're not with y'all now, because y'all don't believe the future. Y'all believing what y'all were taught to believe. [00:22:05] Curren$y: Yep.  [00:22:05] Mousa Hamdan: Rather than having your own mind and realizing things change, the world changes. And you just got to be in the mix. You got to know what's going on. You got to get involved where you fit in.  [00:22:15] Curren$y: You got to appear agile, man.  [00:22:18] Dan Runcie: Stories like that, I feel, is what set y'all apart because if you think back to that time, no one wanted anything to do with BitTorrent or even LimeWire, BearShare, all these places where you could stream music and I get it. It was all the piracy, all the copyright. But at some point, someone asked to be able to say, all right, this is where folks are at. This is how they're getting our music. How could we get our music onto these places? Or how could we just think about it in a different way that isn't just no, don't do that? [00:22:46] Curren$y: Watch it come all the way back to the beginning because we stayed true the entire time, that company that needed to wash his hands and kind of rebirth themselves, needed to stand next to something that was pure the entire time so that they could get some of our life, you feel me? Like, that was the way that shit worked. Their name was so sullied that it was like, okay, as far as music is concerned, people know Jet Life will not falter. They won't fold. They don't go for fucking the dangling carrot. So if we fuck with them, then they would know, like, well, Jet Life wouldn't fuck with us if we were really this pirate fucking factory. So it made everything, you know, legitimate. You know, we saw good in them, so it was cool, yeah.  [00:23:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's interesting too, to make me think about the current thing that people are pushing back on, whether it's streaming farms, you know, people trying to drive up these streams and stuff like that. What's your take on that? Because I feel like, for you, something like that's almost irrelevant because you're not in this to, like, sell your music, so you don't care about charts or probably any of that stuff.  [00:23:52] Curren$y: I can't blame them because it's not like streams, not like that shit pay you a lot of money, you know? I'm saying it takes a lot of streams to make, like, you know, substantial money. It takes a lot of people. A lot of artists don't even understand, you know what I'm saying? Like, the motherfucker call me like, bro, you did a million streams in the day. Like, so what do you think? I'm going to buy a yacht tonight, like, that was worth $12,000, bro, you know what I'm saying? That was worth 12 grand. I was like, don't trip. So I know they need those machines and shit to try and run those streams up. That could be check fraud. Like, they're trying to fucking, they're riding the clock, like, here man, we did 80 zillion billion streams in Apple music. Here's the paperwork. Fucking pay us, man. It could be that, it could be, we need to fucking this shit up so we could get a deal from some other people, maybe Pepsi Cola will reach out to us because they think we going to bring 'em all this attention and fuck them if we can't. The check's already here. You know, everybody's hustling though. It's not righteous, you know, but none of this shit is righteous. And that's kind of the ceiling that we set on ourselves by trying to, like, be legit, you know, it's not like that, you know what I'm saying? So I don't trip off the stream machines and people with the padded streams or, because I understand why they do it. We're blessed to not have to exist that way. And on the other hand, we do a decent amount of streaming because I put out a good amount of music, so I'm not going to do a million every month on one project like these other dudes, like, dude, some people only got to come out two times a year because that project will stream a million fucking streams a month every month all year. But what I will do is probably drop every month and still make it that way, you know what I'm saying? Or drop every two months, you know, and I'm still making that same bread. We just work harder, you know, because we're not doing a lot of the extra shit.  [00:25:56] Mousa Hamdan: It don't hurt that he likes to record and what you're going to do?  [00:25:59] Curren$y: Yeah, for sure.  [00:26:00] Mousa Hamdan: You going to hold all the music? The music's going to sound old. He was writing about a '96 expedition, right? You got to put it out, bro. Next year, that thing's old.  [00:26:11] Curren$y: Yep.  [00:26:12] Mousa Hamdan: So at the end of the day, it don't hurt that he likes to record and the fans like to consume the music. They like the new drops. They don't feel like they're oversaturated with his music. They want more.  [00:26:23] Curren$y: Yeah. The only time we hear that word is from, like, somebody outside. It's like when I'm doing, like, a press run and the people who had to Google me while we were on the elevator and we get up there to interview me, and that's like some shit they say like, so do you think you know about oversaturation? Like, fuck no, I don't think about oversaturation. I only think about my folks, like, you know what I'm saying? That's you. Y'all don't know. Y'all just tired of saying that Curren$y is coming out again with a project. I'm just tired of saying that. It shows up on y'all fucking thing. You have to mention it. You're just tired of saying this shit.  [00:26:58] Dan Runcie: That's them trying to put you into a box. That's them trying to put you into what they know. But like a lot of people that serve their base, you know what they want and you are giving them exactly what they want.  [00:27:08] Curren$y: Well, I mean, we interact with and we're around motherfuckers that come to this store all day, sometimes not even, to buy a shirt, like to be like, bro, when is this dropping? Like, you know, to play something for Instagram, when is this coming out? So we got our finger on the pulse of what's keeping us alive. Like, we check our posts often, you know. [00:27:28] Dan Runcie: For sure. Mousa, I want to talk to you a bit about the business of Jet Life and everything you have going on. And I know we talked a little bit about how touring is a big place where you all are getting a lot of the money, but what does the breakdown look like from a high level? Like, how much of the money you all have coming in is from touring compared to the other businesses and then compared to streaming and the music itself? Like, from like a percentage?  [00:27:53] Mousa Hamdan: Well, I think, of course, since pandemic, the touring has slowed down. We haven't done anything, but I don't think, for a while, I didn't think the people were ready for a tour, you know, because different cities still had different COVID restrictions and vaccination card restrictions, which would limit the fans of coming to the venues. So it wasn't a good look. I spoke to some other artist manager, who is like, yeah, he's on the road, but he's kind of depressed because shows are not selling out. He feels like he lost it. And it's not that, it's just that the environment wasn't for that. You were going out there too fast looking for the money. The good thing with us was, like he said earlier, that if one thing wasn't doing what we wanted, we had something else that was doing it. So, crazily, the apparel skyrocketed during the pandemic.  [00:28:47] Curren$y: And I was the one who thought we needed, I thought we had to stop.  [00:28:51] Mousa Hamdan: Yeah.  [00:28:51] Curren$y: I was like, nobody is going to buy a fucking hoodie.  [00:28:55] Mousa Hamdan: He was like, bro... [00:28:56] Curren$y: There's no toilet paper. There's no fucking lights on in the store. Who the fuck is going to order a shorts, and fuck it, we're selling out of shit.  [00:29:05] Mousa Hamdan: Shit was flying.  [00:29:06] Curren$y: I was watching the news. There's just one, like, who are these people that are buying? Are they aware that this shit's even happening? Do they know they have nowhere to wear it to? And they're just posting the shit in the crib, in our brand new drop. Like, just fucking kicking it. The love was real, and they kept us alive, bro. I bought like fucking three or four cars while the shit was locked down. You couldn't even, we couldn't even go to dealerships, and I was buying cars because people were buying fucking sweatshirts. I'm sorry. I'm going to go back here. Y'all continue with business talk.  [00:29:42] Mousa Hamdan: Definitely. [00:29:43] Curren$y: You know I'm saying? He knows, he knows, he knows.  [00:29:47] Mousa Hamdan: So I think when he drops some music, there's a jump in streams, you know what I'm saying? There's a bigger check coming, you know, apparel, same thing. We drop some, a new line or a new drop, it's bam. You know, everybody wants that, and depending on what it is. But, you know, we tend to drop a good little bit of apparel. So I think now apparel and the music kind of coexist, and both have their times, that one makes a little more than the other and vice versa. The other businesses that are fresh starts are creating a revenue. Of course, we don't expect the nightclub business to make the money that the record label makes, but it's an addition. So it is always like our thought of keep putting in the pot. Eventually, that pot will get full or, like he says in the songs, we're trying to fill up a safe. Once we fill that safe up, we just got to get another safe. We're not going to empty that safe. We're going to get another safe. Now we got to fill that one up, you know? So if, you know, at the end of the day, you know, it is Jet Life, we're going to spread our wings, we're going to see what we can put our hands on that will create a revenue and at the same time, sticking to our morals and beliefs of what we feel like Jet Life should stand for. A lot of people don't know, Jet Life, at the beginning, Jets was just an acronym. Just enjoy this shit. So that's what we're doing. We're enjoying it. Or like I tell people, Jet Life has just enjoy this life. So that's where we're at with it, steadily growing, steadily trying to get involved in everything that makes sense. You know, If it doesn't make sense, we leave it alone. So the revenue streams, like I said, it kind of goes back and forth. Apparel definitely is a world of its own now. Apparel is great. You know, we moved from, originally, like you said, with touring. That's when I realized that the apparel was so good because at touring, we were selling so much what I consider tour merch, you know, which is just the name of the show, the city's on the back, a picture of Curren$y on the shirt. You know, all the fans want it. They're like, man, they really love this shit. They're buying it.  [00:31:56] Curren$y: That was just a tour shirt.  [00:31:58] Mousa Hamdan: So then I was like, well, damn, I'd rather wear our own clothes when I want to go to the nightclub, when I go out to eat, or if I just want to hang around. I don't want to wear a tour shirt all the time, but I want to wear something.  [00:32:12] Curren$y: And I didn't want to wear no shirt with my name on it. [00:32:15] Mousa Hamdan: Right. He doesn’t want pictures of himself. [00:32:17] Curren$y: I don't want no shirt with me on it, no shirt with my name on it 'cause like, who the fuck am I? You know what I'm saying? Who am I, you know, to even do that?  [00:32:27] Dan Runcie: Right. 'Cause that's more like merch, right? And I didn't know that people use merch, but like, no, y'all have a clothing apparel. [00:32:33] Mousa Hamdan: Tour merch. And then we changed it to apparel. Apparel, which you wear on a daily thing, every morning you wake up and you put apparel. You were sleeping in apparel. So we had to reach that. And then every couple of months we just think, what else can we make? What else? 'Cause you know, we started with just t-shirts, you know, then went to hoodies and long sleeves. And then we're like, we got to start getting bottoms and we got to get hats and you know, so now we're, you know, building into accessories and whatever else people may like. And at the same time as well, like I said, we test fitted on ourselves. If it's something that we don't want to wear, I'll always show him stuff like, look, these are some of the new designs. This is some of the stuff that you talked about with me that we created. Now it's on paper. Do you like it? If you like it, let's push the button. Let's go with it. If it's something you would wear. 'Cause at the end of the day, if he doesn't wear it, if I don't wear it, if the other artists on Jet Life don't wear it... [00:33:33] Curren$y: It will sit in the warehouse.  [00:33:35] Mousa Hamdan: Why would we expect a fan or a fellow lifer to wear it? They don't want to wear something that you don't even want to wear yourself. So if we don't want to create nothing that we don't like. You know, and that's just, I think our business model with everything we do. We don't want to do anything that we don't agree with. We don't want to do anything that goes against what we stand for.  [00:33:58] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And the point again about the merch, too, I think Curren$y, you had this line in maybe it's an interview, I think you said, but it's like, no one's calling you Sean John merch, right? As you're telling Diddy like, oh yeah, I like your merch.  [00:34:12] Curren$y: Right. You know what I'm saying? And just, we have to stand on that, you know? And I think we have for a long time, and it made people change the perception of it, you know. Before, like, just, the fact that we stand behind it like that, it made people buy it who maybe weren't even thinking about it because it made people want to look at it a little more to not like it, you know, like people came in to find like what was wrong. And then it's like, well, shit's just actually, you know, I'm going to buy the shirt, you know what I'm saying? Like, they were coming to point out why it was just merch and it wasn't, you know?  [00:34:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. One other question for you, Mousa, about touring itself and just doing live shows. Because of how well the apparel's going right now and how the business overall may have changed since the pandemic, do you ever think that you'll go back to doing the same number of shows that you were doing before the pandemic because of how much success you have with everything else? Do you think it'll scale back a bit at all? [00:35:10] Mousa Hamdan: In my mind, I've always lived thinking never forget where this started from and never forget what created this lane for you to get into. Without the touring, I never knew how much the merch sold. And I noticed that with a lot of artists, there's a lot of artists that don't sell merch, and they don't know the money that they're missing. So without the touring, without the shows that we do, like he said, we put a finger on the pulse of the fans. Well, we'll know who's coming to these shows, you know, and you can see when, all right, well, the shows are getting a little light, so what is it we're doing wrong? There's something that we're missing. Same thing with the apparel. When sales are a little low then I'm like, well, what are we doing that we used to do better? Or what are we missing? Are we getting laid back? Are we feeling like it just is what it is now? But being involved in it like that, I think, keeps us on with whatever else we're doing 'cause it's going to keep telling us, like, this is the pulse of the people. This is what you're doing. So I think we'll always do tours. Maybe we're not, you know, one time we did, I think it was 60 shows in 70 days, which was crazy.  [00:36:23] Curren$y: 63.  [00:36:24] Mousa Hamdan: Yeah, it was, yeah, crazy. Show every night, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And they're like, whoa, when is the break, bro? Like, when are we? So I don't think we'll do that. But we're going to stay out there, you know, as long as the people want to see, and he's got fresh music that he wants to perform. And you know, he's an artist, I think, that feeds off the energy, you know. And if the crowd doesn't have the energy, he's like, why am I here? Why am I performing for these people? They don't really want to see me because the energy is not there. So as long as we're feeling the energy, then I think we're there. Hopefully, I don't see it going down no time soon. You know, we're going to keep doing whatever it is that allows us what the universe puts for us to do, you know? And we're just going to be there.  [00:37:08] Dan Runcie: How do you look at doing your own shows versus doing festivals? Do you have preferences? I feel like for an artist like you, your own shows where your people are going to be at, right? [00:37:18] Curren$y: Yeah, bro. This is a whole other show. Don't do it. We love, we love, we love festival checks. If I had to pick, I like, you know, me at the House of Blues. I know exactly that the people who are in there, like, are there for what we going to do, you know what I'm saying? The festival, I've been blessed to be a person that you kind of, you can't get around me in the game, you know what I'm saying? So when you don't fuck with me, people speak out to you. You look stupid, you know what I'm saying? You look crazy. So people put me on shit, like just, no, we got to have him on this festival. We got to put him on this. We got to put him on this, you know what I'm saying? And my core people are there, but they're surrounded by people who are, like, waiting for like the next person to come out and like spit fire, you know what I'm saying? And walk on the crowd, pop, you know, like, I can't do it. I'll never do it, you know? So I'm like, I don't want to put my listeners through it because and they're in there like, shit, man. There's, like, a kid who kept, like, elbowing me, you know what I'm saying? Like, some of my listeners are, like, there's always somebody to put me to the side, like, yo, I'm 51, my nigga, like, this is the shit I'll listen to. So them, them dudes don't, they don't want that. Those ladies, like, who pull me to the side, like, boy, look, you know, I could be... I'm like, Yeah, you don't have time for, you know, for that. So I like to do just my thing. But the festival checks go directly to the sports car dealerships. Like, those are the checks that get you off the lot though. So, you know, you're being a fool not to do it, you know? And that's just business.  [00:39:03] Mousa Hamdan: The checks are good, yes, but I think as well... [00:39:08] Curren$y: He makes sense with this. I know what he coming with this, but I'm going to tell you, they're coming to business. He makes sense.  [00:39:12] Mousa Hamdan: Sometimes, I honestly, in a lot of things that we do, I always tell him, I think he underestimates his reach, you know, and he's too humble to the point of, nah, bro, like, they're not really here for me and this, that, and the other. Now, I'll be honest with you, we had one festival show. I was a little worried. We got on stage. He wasn't on stage. He was backstage, so he didn't know nothing was going on. I literally walked to the DJ. I said, bro, this is probably our last festival 'cause it was like, there was literally 10 people in front the stage. I said, bro, if he gets out here and there's 10 people out here, he's liable to walk off stage, bro, so listen to me. The intro started and it looked like a rush. Like, I didn't know who. They had about 5,000 people or better rush to the stage. And I like, whoa, that's more like it. Then he came out, he didn't see the dead part. He saw that part. He was like, oh, my people are here. They're here. They showed up. They showed up. I'm like, you just don't know. They really did show up 'cause they wasn't here five minutes ago.  [00:40:22] Curren$y: They just showed up. [00:40:23] Mousa Hamdan: Bro, but then that's understanding the festivals. You got six stages.  [00:40:28] Curren$y: Yeah.  [00:40:29] Mousa Hamdan: They're trying to catch everybody. [00:40:30] Curren$y: I was posting one time, there's a way to do it, you know what I'm saying? As long as you are vocal about what time you go on, your people will navigate through to get there for you, you know what I'm saying? But you also, you got the people who're waiting for somebody else 'cause I'm like, it's a gift and the curse, 'cause, like, I'm, like, the most known unknown. So it's, like they know they can't put me on at fucking one o'clock, you know what I'm saying? So then when you put me on at, like, eight, and then there's, like, whoever the fucking, whoever name was written this big on the flyer, this guy's coming after me, all right. The kids who are waiting for this guy are, like, have been pressed against the barricade for hours, like since 11:00 AM. When I come out there with my low-impact workout, like they're fucking dying, like looking at me and I'm like, I get it. Don't trip. I fuck with this guy's music too. He'll be out here in a minute, and I hope he does a backflip on top of you when he does, you know what I'm saying? Like, that shit kind of fuck with me because I'm delivering a real message. Like, every word I write, like, I mean it. So I really don't want to say it sweating to a person who's like this, like on the barricade, just like, bro, please stop. We get it. You like Chevys, you want us all to get rich? Fucking shut up. We want to fucking rap about drugs. Where's the next guy? So that shit kind of make you not want to do it. But then this guy, fucking, he's also the person who says this like, okay, you also woke some people up to the music you make. Then there's always, like, when I get done, the people who work the festival, the grounds, are, like, bro, I never heard this shit, but this was real music. Like, I couldn't understand nobody else's words, you know what I'm saying? This is fucking good. So I'm like, well, that's cool. I do leave out there with more listeners than I did, you know what I'm saying? It might be 12, it might be 150. He going to count every dollar for each one via stream, so I understand where he comes from with that. But I always like, I say it to myself sometimes, and sometimes when it gets too heavy to me, I say to the people around me, I'm like, bro, I'm actually the only one who fucking have to go and do that shit. Like, I get it. We all here, we all fucking supporting, but they're not looking at you, like, get the fuck out. And you got to do this shit for 45 minutes, you know what I'm saying? Sure. There's some people who are enjoying it, but the motherfucker who's right in front of you is dying, and you have to continue to have a good time. Like, that shit is like being a fucking Disney World animatronic or, being like a Chuck E. Cheese thing. Like, that's a rough time for me for sure. But it works, you know? That's anybody's job. [00:43:27] Dan Runcie: It's a balance, right? [00:43:28] Curren$y: You know, a hundred percent love any fucking gig that you have, any job you have, bro. I'm sure everybody at NBA, that was their dream, to go to the NBA. Some of those days sucked though for those dudes, you know what I'm saying? So it ain't always going to be the shit. The situation overall is one that I wouldn't trade for the world.  [00:43:48] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And you mentioned too that the money that you're getting from the festivals is going to the sports car dealership. Can we talk a little bit about that? How's that business set up and how's that been going?  [00:44:01] Curren$y: Oh, well, me and Mousa, we've always been kind of into, like, bringing cars back to life, restoring things, and shit. But I've been holding on 'em. But as of late, we're building a stable of vehicles to kind of release onto the public, but it'll be like a collection, the same way we come out with clothes. There'll be like six vehicles put up for sale at one time that we cultivate and put together. We putting together a BMW, a few vintage sports car that we putting together. We're going to roll 'em all out at one time, you know what I'm saying? So I expect them all to be gone, like, within the week. I expect it to be like shoes. Like, I expect motherfuckers to try it and everybody will blow. You know, everybody try their hands at the shit we do. So another motherfucker with a bigger audience and shit will try to do the same thing, but you know, who cooked that shit up first.  [00:44:52] Mousa Hamdan: Okay. They know, They know where they got the idea from. [00:44:56] Curren$y: Yeah, they know, too, so it don't matter.  [00:44:59] Dan Runcie: Speaking of cars and trendssetting, I know you got a partnership with NASCAR as well, and I feel like there's another thing, too, where not a lot of hip hop artists are doing those deals, but we are just seeing the way things are trended now. Everyone will be following to that. And you got the Jet Life cup series. All right, let's talk about it.  [00:45:16] Curren$y: Yeah, man. Yeah, man. Well, yeah. People of any other nationality other than the original rebel down home boys were not involved in NASCAR and they fucking, they had it that way. They built it that way, executive-wise, it's not like that anymore. Now, you know, doors have been broken down, kicked in, and open-minded. People are now there, and it's made it more accessible for fans. I was shocked when I went that I saw like groups of different people, I don't want to just say black people, just different people in general because the other side of it, the way it was, they weren't picking what nationality or what people they didn't want, they didn't want nothing else, but what the fuck they had, you know? So it's way different now in all aspects. It's not just minorities selling nachos. They driving the cars. They are the ones like turning the wrenches and making sure shit is right. They got headsets on, they out there doing the real thing. And I brought one of my younger homies with me, it blew him away. He's at school for engineering, and he was just, he was nervous for us to even be out there. I made a few small jokes to my friends when we first got there based on the appearance and how it looked. But it really wasn't like that once you got down into the meeting. And I read on social media, like I read a few comments. There were some people who were not excited about our presence. There's some people who weren't into the collaboration. I saw one thing under a video that I was so sad 'cause I was like, I hope my mom don't see it. Because the motherfucker was like, what is he coming to steal? And I was like, damn, if my mama sees that, she'll probably cry, you know what I'm saying? Like, it'll take a minute for me to get her over that shit. But what are you going to do? You know what I'm saying? This shit, you can't blame the behavior 'cause it was taught a long time ago. Like, they didn't pop out like that. That's what that motherfucker told him to do, you know what I'm saying? And what we doing is playing the hand and telling the people who are receptive and the new people, the younger generation, like, it could go this way instead, you know what I'm saying? Like, we were up in all the suites and eating NASCAR food, you know, and actually, I'm going to say this, I was a little bummed with the NASCAR because we couldn't get a Coca-Cola badge on our jersey. We wanted to have it because the race that day was actually Coke Zero, Coke Zero 400, all right. So, when they originally had the design meeting for the package, they included Coca-Cola logo because that was the race, you know, that's when it was coming up. And I think like they did the same thing, like, whoever is involved with the collaborations just did a little brief overview of who I was or what I was about, and they're like, oh, no. So like, that kind of fucked me up.  [00:48:17] Mousa Hamdan: They'll be back though. They'll be back.  [00:48:19] Curren$y: Yeah. But you know, like, I was like, well this still, you know, shit is still hard, you know? But with time, with time, yeah. And I don't know. And then, and I didn't like the you got gang with you. I heard over there, I'm sorry.  [00:48:32] Mousa Hamdan: Oh, yeah. [00:48:32] Dan Runcie: That's from fans or was that from NASCAR?  [00:48:35] Curren$y: No, no. [00:48:35] Mousa Hamdan: Coke exec.  [00:48:36] Curren$y: Just one of the brass at Coca-Cola. And I drank a lot of Coca-Cola, so I really do need to stop, but for health and maybe for business, because motherfucker was like, to the representative from NASCAR who was showing us to where we were going to go to sit down, like, in the suite. He's like, oh, you got a gang with you. And I was just like, damn, like. I'm sure maybe I'm looking at it with a microscope, you know.  [00:49:01] Dan Runcie: But still though, you can't say that, yeah.  [00:49:04] Curren$y: I really don't know, I just don't know. I just was on the fence. I thought about it a lot. I think about it.  [00:49:09] Dan Runcie: But like, they wouldn't say that if, like, Jason Aldean walked up in there with a group of folks. [00:49:13] Curren$y: You got a lot of people with you, you know I'm saying? It wasn't like he said the gang's all here. If he said the gang's all here, that would not have hit me like that. People say that the gang's all here, that doesn't mean that you got a street gang here.  [00:49:29] Mousa Hamdan: Right. [00:49:29] Curren$y: But, whoa, you got a gang with you.  [00:49:33] Mousa Hamdan: He could have said, Hey fellas and just kept it moving. [00:49:36] Curren$y: Yeah.  [00:49:36] Mousa Hamdan: How y'all doing guys?  [00:49:38] Curren$y: Yeah.  [00:49:38] Mousa Hamdan: And you didn't have to make conversation with us. You were just passing. [00:49:41] Curren$y: It felt like it was a Chappelle show skit because it could have been where keeping the real goes wrong. Because I was like, half step, like, trying to see if I could make eye contact with one of my friends who felt like maybe that was wrong and I had support in, like, hey man, like, what? But it could have went way south. Like, there could be no more NASCAR 'cause shit if we could, would've did that. You know, we just might not have the Coca-Cola on the next one. Or maybe we will, maybe they're like, oh, shit, man. We didn't mean that. I thought I did say that gang's all here. Let's put a badge on the fucking next jacket, you know, it might work that way. And that's business and that's why we're here talking, you know? And and that's why it it pays to be true to yourself within your business. And if your circle is small, it's easier for you to be honest and not worry about if something sounds stupid or anything because, like, we have a yin and a yang, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's what makes it work.  [00:50:37] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think that's a good note to close things out. And I want to get your thoughts on this question because as you started with the beginning, y'all have been together for a while, even in this conversation, we can see that chemistry between the two of you, that yin and the yang, you understand each other. What do you think is the secret for having the artist and manager that just stay with each other? 'Cause there's so many times that, either other artists or other managers that have been on this show and they're like, oh, yeah, you know, so and so fired me.  [00:51:04] Curren$y: Somebody lied in the beginning. [00:51:07] Mousa Hamdan: Right.  [00:51:08] Curren$y: Just like, who fucks up anything. You know, like, just somebody lied in the beginning. The artist was signed to nine different managers. Everybody loaned him $1,500 to help him do something. He's just signing with whoever's going to fucking give him a fucking chain or watch, and he's not being honest. Or there's a fucking, like, a discrepancy on this stack of paperwork or something, and this guy's outsmarting the artist and fucking going to rob and blind, you know what I'm saying? Like, if that happens in the beginning, the intentions are bad in the beginning, then you'll see where it looked good and then it fall into pieces because you find out, you know what I'm saying? Like, fucking, when we read for fucking N.W.A, which is one thing I didn't turn down, I was down to do that. He's coming to me with movie shit. Do you want to read this? Do you want to do this? No, no, no, no. They're like, do you want to be Easy-E? And I was like, no. At first I was like, no, like, they should call his son, you know what I'm saying? But then I end up reading for it, and then they end up getting a guy from New Orleans anyhow. So that was cool. I'm like, damn, I probably could have got that shit. But nonetheless, the part that we were reading, it was after Easy-E's wife went through the paperwork that he did with Jerry Heller and she brought, like, so much shit, attention to him. And when E and Jerry had this talk, it made Jerry cry because he was leaving even though he did so much wrong shit. But in his heart of hearts, he probably didn't think it was wrong 'cause he took dude from nothing. But it was still bad and he couldn't believe how quick Eric was ready to shut the shit down. But it's because he was wrong. Like, once that, there's nothing you could do after that. Once it get like that, it shut down. That shit is heartbreaking. And we never, like, we have not hurt each other like in that aspect, you know what I'm saying? Like, when I came to him, I was like, look, I don't, you know what I'm saying, I ain't signed nothing yet, but this is what's going on. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. That's that, you know. I don't know, I'm going to go talk ahead, I'm going to do this and get this and then not say this. You know, he don't fucking pop up and see I'm doing the show in Colorado and, you know what I'm saying, I didn't say anything. I just went, flew out and oh no, I made just 30 grand right quick, you know. That there's just, it's all on the up, bro. So with that, you know, you stay friends, we friends first all.  [00:53:28] Mousa Hamdan: That's I think the biggest thing.  [00:53:29] Curren$y: Yeah. If he wasn't in my homie, then we wouldn't do business.  [00:53:31] Mousa Hamdan: We started as friends, and then we continued to be friends in this.  [00:53:36] Curren$y: Yeah. All the way through. [00:53:38] Mousa Hamdan: We're business partners, but we never was just business partners. We was always friends to begin with.  [00:53:44] Curren$y: Right. So that make you not be able to do no fucked up business.  [00:53:48] Mousa Hamdan: And then we trust each other.  [00:53:49] Curren$y: You know what I'm saying? You can't do that to your friend. [00:53:52] Mousa Hamdan: Trust is big, you know. I think he trusts my decisions, I trust his decisions. And then we talk about things, like he said, we were going to always converse about whatever decisions we want make. If there's ever a thought, I think, you know, this may be wrong or whatever, I'm going to consult with him as if he was my manager, you know what I'm saying? So we're going to talk and the trust issue, I always hear that, you know, how, why y'all been together so long? I'm like, if you build a business, who builds a business to separate, right? We build a business together  [00:54:24] Curren$y: Who are these people that you're with? Who's in your car? Who the fuck are you riding with in the car? Like, who? That's why. That's why I said, like, having 19 and 30 motherfuckers. Like, now there might be 30 people in this building at a time, and they all could have a Jet Life chain, they all be a part of what's going on. But at the end of the day, you know what I'm saying? When it'll come down, it'll come down. Like, we got to sit down and fucking, you know what I'm saying, and put it together, you know. Everybody respect that because when we come out the room, we come out the with the right answer. I might have the wrong answer, but this ain't here. When we come out the room, we present the right answer.  [00:55:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, a hundred percent right. And I feel like y'all got the right mentality. It speaks to everything that you've accomplished up to this date and excited to continue to see where it goes, right? Like you said, this is a balloon, and we want to keep seeing how this balloon continues to grow slowly. So, I mean, congrats to y'all on everything that've done. [00:55:17] Curren$y: Got new music dropping Friday, so if this don't get to them this week, you, bro, you know for sure, Friday, I got music dropping. [00:55:26] Dan Runcie: Okay. Yeah. I was going to ask you what else you got coming up and if people want to follow you, where's the best place for them to check in with you, both of you. [00:55:32] Curren$y: Car is outside, but I don't suggest you follow me. @spitta_andretti, Instagram. S P I T T A underscore A N D R E T T I. Twitter, well, I have a lot of fun at Twitter. Instagram has gotten really weird. It's really, like, tough to figure that out. It's nuts. Twitter is staying true. Curren$y with an S because they don't recognize a dollar sign. So C U R R E N S Y underscore Spitta, S P I T T A. And you know what? They had a fake Curren$y when I first got to Twitter. That's why I had to make that name like that, @CurrensySpitta, because there was already somebody who was saying he was me and he had like pictures and everything. That's fucked up, yeah, but nah.  [00:56:17] Dan Runcie: And what about you Mousa?  [00:56:19] Mousa Hamdan: I'm on, pretty much all the handles are the same, @mousa504, M O U S A 5 0 4, that's going to be on whatever, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, anything, you know. I stick to that same handle.  [00:56:33] Curren$y: Oh, we also got the partnership with Sovereign Brands, Villon France, this is our cognac that we are standing behind. That's just one more thing on the number. I forgot. It doesn't help your memory. It tastes good. It doesn't help your memory. I forgot to mention that we were doing it. [00:56:49] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. We could do a whole follow up episode on all of that. All of these deals. Role you've turned down, too, but we'll have to check it the next time. Appreciate you both, man. Thank you.  [00:56:58] Mousa Hamdan: Appreciate you.  [00:56:59] Curren$y: Cheers, bro. [00:57:00] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 20 Oct 2022 08:00:00 -0000 How Curren$y Played The Long Game With His Career & Jet Life full Dan Runcie Most artists want career growth and they want it fast — sometimes to a fault. This is where Curren$y is an outlier. From the jump, Curren$y set out to grow both his career and fanbase slowly but steadily. He successfully did that and it’s a reason why he’s not only stayed in the rap game for almost twenty years, but is now still earning more money, and at a career point where most of his peers coming up have already fizzled out. Curren$y and his longtime manager, Mousa, joined me on this week’s episode to explain how zigging when others zagged contributed to their career longevity. One instance is leaving his hometown Cash Money Records label to create their own, Jet Life. The two have been able to morph the brand into a full-on business empire that now includes apparel, athlete management, products, and more verticals on top of the music label.  The duo built Jet Life on the back of touring and being true to their audience. To do so, they turned down more brand partnerships they can remember and even music festival appearances at times — no matter how good the bag was for each. These trend-bucking moves were covered at length in our interview. Here’s what we covered: [3:15] New Orleans folks are immune to heat [4:44] Mousa and Curren$y relationship began in 2005 [8:49] Growing Jet Life business beyond a record label [11:45] Turning down non-authentic business opportunities [15:59] Emphasizing touring early in Curren$y’s career [19:21] Releasing an EP as an NFT [23:52] Curren$y’s take on streaming farms [29:47] Macro-view of Jet Life revenue streams [34:47] Touring is cornerstone of Jet Life business [37:08] Performing on own shows vs. music festivals [43:48] Festival money goes to sports car dealership [45:16] Curren$y’s partnership with NASCAR (and problems with Coca-Cola) [50:37] What’s the secret to a great artist-manager relationship?   Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Mousa Hamdan & Curren$y, @MOUSA504 & @spitta_andretti     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Curren$y: You can always expand and try new things, but if it feels wrong on the core, then you're setting yourself up. We never made a move like that. No matter what deal comes across the table 'cause he's money first. But he'll tell the people, the check writer like, man, just let me talk to bro. Because at the end of the day, he's going to hear me say it's half a million dollars, but he might say it's a boring job and he might not want to do it.  [00:00:32] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:54] Dan Runcie: Listen, you're going to love today's episode. It is with one of the most successful independent artists in the game and his longtime manager. We got Curren$y and we got Mousa. If you've been following Curren$y's journey for a while, you know that he was originally on No Limit Records 20 years ago. He left the record label. He then went to join Young Money. He was a little early on the Young Money Train, but he ended up leaving the record label before Nicki and before Drake blew up and he started his own. He started Jet Life, and he's been building up his career as an independent artist, and it's been great to see how he has navigated both how he releases music and also how he approached his business overall. And that was a big focus of this episode. We talked about his strategy for releasing music, and Curren$y is someone that is very prolific in terms of the amount of music that he puts out, but it also gets him plenty of opportunities to be able to go on tour, to be able to have several other business ventures that they have through Jet Life and through other areas. We talked about what they're doing in cannabis as well. We talked about the nightclub that they have, the apparel business, and a whole lot more. We also talked about a few partnerships that you may be surprised by, but I still think that fit well within the ethos for what Jet Life is and what Curren$y is trying to build. We even talked about some of the movie deals and opportunities that Curren$y had turned down. I don't want to spoil it. It's a really good one, but this was a really fascinating conversation, is also been great to just see how long these two have stuck together. If you're a big fan of this podcast, these are the type of episodes that you come for. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Curren$y and Mousa.  [00:02:41] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're joined by the duo themselves. We got Curren$y and we got Mousa here, the artist-manager combination. How are you guys doing?  [00:02:49] Curren$y: Man, we can't complain. The weather is nice outside and it is been pretty bad out here in Orleans. It's been a hundred degrees and raining every day, but right now it's sunny, 86 degrees, you know what I'm saying? I got long sleeves on, top down, having a good day. I can't complain.  [00:03:07] Dan Runcie: See, that's the one thing about folks I know from New Orleans, like it could be 86 degrees and y'all are still in long sleeves. Y'all are still in hoodies.  [00:03:15] Curren$y: Well, it is, well, because it is the heat, we're already adjusting. It's just hot in here. So now we've gone more fashion-forward, bro. It's like, just fuck it, bro. Wear what you want to wear because it's still going to be 190 degrees no matter what. So just go for it. I don't really condone that lifestyle unless you have a car. A lot of my younger brothers I see walking up and down the street, and they definitely look like they're about to commit crimes because it's a hundred degrees and they got on the hoodie and I'm, like, weary of, I'm like, hold on, you know what I'm saying, because, fuck, that don't make no sense. You dressed for action. But if you are in the car, you are in the office, you are in the studio. That's where that look really originated. People always tell me, II'm dressed like that forever, but it's been because most of my life has been like tour bus, studio, even when it wasn't me, I was like a little guy on Masterpiece bus. It was 60 degrees, you know what I'm saying? And these big mansions, it's cold as shit. So I just grew acclimated to dressing like that. I think I might have spearheaded that. I honestly, I think that I may have spearheaded that, but what haven't we spearheaded over here, you know? [00:04:25] Dan Runcie: It's true, especially folks at New Orleans, folks like y'all are trendsetters. And one of the things that I feel like sets y'all apart is that you've been doing this for so long, and you've been doing this for so long together. I mean, Mousa, you've been managing Curren$y now for, since '05, right? I know you do 'em before, but you started managing, like, '05, right? [00:04:44] Mousa Hamdan: We're friends before, but definitely since '05, since he joined in with Lil Wayne, with Young Money, Cash Money. So I think that's when he brought me on and asked me to come on as his manager.  [00:04:53] Curren$y: Yep. Yeah.  [00:04:54] Mousa Hamdan: And you know... [00:04:55] Curren$y: As soon as there was business to manage.  [00:04:58] Mousa Hamdan: Right.  [00:04:58] Curren$y: You know, right? While I was just slinging t-shirts, like ordering 28 t-shirts on a month, pressing CDs upstairs at my apartment, that was easy to do. When it began to grow and I saw, like, my two homes wasn't going to be enough to handle it, you know, what could I do but reach out to the one homie who I knew forever who don't want to smoke no weed with me, who don't want to get drunk with me, you know what I'm saying? Like, who's just like totally, his high is the business, deals closed and stuff gone successfully is him having a drink, you know what I'm saying? So it worked. It works like that. [00:05:36] Mousa Hamdan: Definitely. I like achieving goals. You know, I'm a goal seeker. And once you achieve one goal, set another one, you know? And that's my inspiration is to see how big we could really take this Jet Life, how, you know, how big deal this will be, and how long we can make it last. I mean, I thought about this morning, I was talking to one of my other homies, I was like, we've been in this game a minute, bro. Like, and he was like, look, I've been home for a little while and y'all been doing this a long time. So I say, yeah, definitely, but we not done, you know. We’re nowhere near done. We really just starting, we really starting to grow even more now.  [00:06:12] Curren$y: That's crazy to say that, and that's really the truth, to be here in the game. Like, Jet Life, we're like over a decade, and each year it just gets bigger. That's really what you want. It's not a big, hasn't been just one big explosion. It's a slow burn. But it is guaranteed. And we've always grown. A lot of times you see people struggling, like, not to lose ground in the game, you know, and stay relevant. And that's never been a problem with us because we've been blessed to be able to, like, generate or, like, create our own world, you know what I'm saying? And the people who listen to our music or who dress, some people dress only in Jet Life apparel. And it is because they don't give a fuck about nothing else, you know what I'm saying? They've had their time to see what the world had to offer, and they saw that ours was just uncompromised. So they lend themselves to it a hundred percent. And that's been enough to sustain, like, the lifestyle that we have. And the people that support us, they like to pass by the Jet Life store just to see what cars we might have outside. So they continue to support us because now we're going to park more and more shit. Like, they the ones who help us do it, you know? So it's good. It's good.  [00:07:27] Mousa Hamdan: It definitely is. It's really a lifestyle, you know? I think it's, you know, from the beginning I remember, Curren$y said in interviews as well as told me directly, like, you know, his vision of seeing how Jet Life and how he wanted to grow. He always said it was like a balloon. And I listened, I heard that, and I was like, he's right. He's like, you could either, you could blow air in it fast and it's going to blow big and then it's going to explode and it's over. Or you could blow in it slow and it's going to slowly blow.  [00:07:57] Curren$y: Yeah. Fucking right.  [00:07:58] Mousa Hamdan: Then you show the longevity. And that's what we did. We're blowing it slow.  [00:08:02] Curren$y: Yep. [00:08:03] Mousa Hamdan: But look at us. We're still here. There's a lot of people that we saw that came before us and during us who we feel like, oh yeah, they got the light quick and they blew up fast. But then what happened? And you know, they're not around no more. [00:08:16] Curren$y: Something explodes, it ceases to exist. [00:08:19] Mousa Hamdan: It's done. [00:08:20] Curren$y: I've never seen anything, you know what I'm saying, explode that still had it ever, you know?  [00:08:26] Dan Runcie: Right, oh yeah. You know, and I feel like with y'all, specifically, you're able to see the trajectory. You're able to see everything that you've accomplished, too, because I look at Jet Life, and it started as the imprint for your record label, but now you have your apparel, you also have the other businesses you have. How would you describe the current businesses? What are the current things under Jet Life right now?  [00:08:49] Mousa Hamdan: Well, we got, of course, like you said, it started with records, Jet Life Records. And then it went to, we started doing tour merch, which grew into Jet Life Apparel. We were in now Jet Life Athletics. So we started to do deals with managing athletes and growing that brand. Then of course, we've other stuff that's not necessarily labeled Jet Life, but we've opened up a nightclub in New Orleans, so so that's something that's coming.  [00:09:16] Curren$y: We got a big footprint in the cannabis community. We got a couple of other startups, like a coffee shop and a cereal bar we're going to launch. We already have two films out, so, I mean, if you want to say Jet Life Films is in existence, that is true. It's so much stuff that we do, but the circle is so tight, like, nobody's going to tell the other one. Like, bro, you realize what we doing because we are still in the midst of doing it. Like, an outside person would have to come in and really show us how many businesses and what's all under the umbrella 'cause we really just wake up and try to, like, just make sure we make something happen, you know, every day. If you want to label it and put a name on it, then, it was news to me, right now just listening to how much stuff we have going on.  [00:10:04] Mousa Hamdan: We forgot Starting Line Hobbies. [00:10:06] Curren$y: Yeah, we got hobby shop bro, like that. See? So the more you sit down…  [00:10:11] Mousa Hamdan: We forget some of the business. But they exist and they're profitable, right? [00:10:16] Curren$y: He's got an auto body shop, it's still in existence. That's really where a lot of it comes from, his whole foray into it all was being able to survive if one thing fell down. Even though the music was the one that paved the way and drew the attention, the industry is fickle. So you see people like, we see them rise and you think they going to build this whole empire, they end up with a warehouse full of shit. They can't move bobbleheads of themselves. Nobody wants t-shirts, nobody wants home furnishing. Nobody wants it, fucking goes that way, you know what I'm saying? And we've been blessed to like, now we got two or three warehouses, you know what I'm saying? But we're moving the shit, you know. So it's just about staying true and not, we never really tried to do too much, nothing outside of what felt right to us. You can always expand and try new things, but if it feels wrong on the core, then you're setting yourself up. We never made a move like that. No matter what deal comes across the table 'cause he's money first. But he'll tell the people, the check writer like, man, just let me talk to bro. Because at the end of the day, he's going to hear me say it's half a million dollars, but he might say it's a boring job and he might not want to do it even though it's half a million dollars. So he'll just check with me, you know what I'm saying? We probably go and do the 'shit anyway 'cause it's half a million dollars. But he checks with me because in my heart of hearts, I might want to say no, but I got a kid and shit.  [00:11:45] Mousa Hamdan: I'll definitely ask him. Do you want to do this though?  [00:11:49] Curren$y: Yeah. And I got respect for him for doing that. The fact that he compromised his money mentality that asks me that much, gives me the strength to be able to say, you know what, fuck it, bro, you gave, I'll give. I'm going to come and do this shit, you know what I'm saying? And then lo and behold everybody wins, you know?  [00:12:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah. What's an example of something that you have turned down? Like, Mousa, 'cause it sounds like you're the one that's seeing the things and you're thinking about, oh, this is the bag, but is this something that fits with the Jet Life lifestyle? [00:12:18] Curren$y: There's a lot of those, like, TV shit that'll come across, you know what I'm saying? I hope that he knows, I don't care. So he would say, I'm going to jump out in front of you, like, you don't see because these people still come up with more and more ideas. And eventually, they might put, they might table something that we want to pick up. But we've slammed them because it's like, bro, you know, just looking at something where they say, well, he can say it in his own words, but the way they phrase it makes me like, I'll never put this in my own words, I don't want to fucking do it. You know, just fuck it, you know what I'm saying? Or like post, they'll try, you know, they'll pay you for social media stuff just to say you like something or you can't wait for something to fucking hit the theaters. And I'm like, you know what? Fuck no. I don't want to say that. Because as soon as I post this, my fucking true audience is going to say, you know, how much did you get, bro? They'll say shit like that. I don't want to play them like that.  [00:13:15] Mousa Hamdan: Yeah. I think we've known each other long enough and I know his answers on some things. Some things I won't even bring to him. [00:13:22] Curren$y: For sure.  [00:13:23] Mousa Hamdan: You know, we had some stuff like, you know, I'll be honest with you, like, you know, media companies that come and say, well, you know, let me post this on your page or do this, that, and the others, and it's clickbait. And he was like, nah, bro, I don't want my fans clicking on that.  [00:13:37] Curren$y: Yeah, I don't want that. I'm the one who have to answer for this shit. [00:13:41] Mousa Hamdan: I don't care how much it is. And the fans aren't crazy. They'll be like, Curren$y, that shit was clickbait, bro.  [00:13:46] Curren$y: They're like, what? Or you had to, bro? Like, I have all that kind of shit. So I'm just like, let's save the company who wants to pay us the embarrassment of when they realized this was not organic and it didn't cross over. Like, now they won't want to spend any money. They may not want to spend money with us later on, on something that might actually work, you know? So it's just better to just say, you know, it is better to protect yourself that way. You end up in the long run, you still make that money. A few times people have double-backed because they realize, you know what, that was kind of lame. I can't believe we asked them to do that shit. And then they come back with something way dope after they've researched me, you know? 'Cause immediately you do a Google search and you are like, all right, cool. We'll get him to do the new weed spray. Let's get him to endorse this new air freshener that kills the weeds, man. Like, bro, the fuck? Like, I'm not even living like that. I'm actually a boss and I don't have to conceal the weed smell in my fucking life, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not promoting shit.  [00:14:46] Dan Runcie: I'm even come to you with a deal like that though, knowing you.  [00:14:50] Mousa Hamdan: Yeah, yeah. They'll bring all type of deals, bro. They'll try and get you out of character if you let them. You know, they'll push the button.  [00:14:57] Curren$y: But it feels like trolling a lot of the time. Like, are they trying to see if I would do this, you know what I'm saying? [00:15:03] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:15:03] Mousa Hamdan: I don't think they understand that he's not saying he's true to his lifestyle. He is actually true to it. He's not going to do anything that's going to bend.  [00:15:11] Curren$y: It's not about money. We got enough pots on the stove. It's a six-burner stove. And we have pots with food and all of them are cooking, you know what I'm saying? So when somebody comes with the bullshit, it's like, all right, let's just go dip in this, right, quick. You know, like I I've done that with music, when I feel like, it is just sometimes I get a little down on myself just based on the climate of music, you know? And I'll fall back and maybe I'll just come up here and we'll just make a whole collection of clothes at that time, you know? And we were able to keep the lights on and shit through the apparel. If I said fuck it from here on end, you know what I'm saying? But it just so happens, like, I get my win and it is fun again, and I want to do it. You know, so we're lucky as shit. [00:15:59] Dan Runcie: That makes sense, yeah. It's a good position to be in, right? You understand your brand, you understand what makes sense. You're only going to do certain types of deals. And I feel like this goes back to the way that you just go about this industry overall, right? You were early in terms of, let me put out my music and if people get it for free, they may get it for free, but let me go make the money on tour. Let me go make the money with these other business interests.  [00:16:24] Curren$y: Yeah, because I mean, it's, shrinkage. It didn't matter how much music, like, what you do, how much you put behind the budget and what the labels do and all this shit. These people were just, our music was being stolen. This was during the time of, like, manufacturing jewel cases and all this shit that the company had to do, so that affected how much money they could give you. And then at the end of the day, everybody had the album a week before any damn, you know? So you can't feed your family like that. But what you can do, and what I did do is, and also when I did that, it was out of necessity. I didn't have no money to pay everybody for beats. But I could download Dr. Dre's instrumental for free. And as long as I don't sell this bitch, he's not coming for me, you know? I'm going to put it out for free. People going to love it. They're going to want me to come and wrap the motherfucker and they're going to pay however much it costs, you know, so that's how we did it. You know, that's just, like utilizing your natural resources. Like, what's growing in the land? Like, what's there? Just looked around and worked off what's growing out of the ground when you don't have the funds to do it. Like, you know, and you're creating business. Like, that's all we've ever done. And the more resources and the more materials we gain, you know, from gaining leverage or going up a level, then we start another joint, you know? Cause we got more to start with, 'Cause we, we did it with zero. So now it's insane. Like, we're just throwing darts at the board, like, fuck it, let's try and start a speedboat racing team tomorrow, you know what I'm saying? Like, fuck, whatever is whatever you want to do. And I've seen people do it. I’ve seen Master P do it because he had, like, with the bread to try it, you got to go for it. But what you had, but his circle is, was so large at the time with no limit. Like, first crack some ideas, not the best ideas, but you got love for everybody, so you going to roll the dice with everything they come with. You going to try, see, but what's working for us is we don't have that many people, like, around, you know what I'm saying? Like, as far as where the love is, it is right, it is in the room, so we not going to bounce. So if we try each other's ideas, one of 'em going to work 'cause it was just to, you got 19 people in here trying to, you know, tell you what to do and you want to keep everybody happy. You try, you going to end up trying to, like, start a golf cart company and, like, do spacewalks and sell reptiles and wild pets and then just doing everything that they ask you to do. And some of it's not going to work.  [00:18:59] Dan Runcie: And I feel like with that, too, is just understanding your brand, understanding what's effective. And I know last year you had released an EP as an NFT, and I know this was the time when a lot of people were first discovering what an NFT is and things like that. What was that like? Because I know that was something that you didn't necessarily need to do to reach your fan base and do everything you wanted to do. [00:19:21] Curren$y: It wasn't to increase the fan base. It was to make our listeners aware that we are in touch with what's going on, and we are going to make sure that you guys aren't left behind as far as having Jet Life representation because we know you wear this shit every day. We know this is all you're listening to. So if the whole world converted to the metaverse, and everybody just wore headsets and live like that, how will you survive if your life is Jet Life? We got to give you something in this shit too. Rather we understand it or not, we have to learn to understand it, to become a part, to take care of y'all out there because it's real, you know? No matter how imaginary it may seem, it's real, you know what I'm saying? It's intangible, but it's a real thing. So we had to be able to provide something for our people 'cause they were there, you know? You look out of touch and, like, not sharp, not able to move, you know, then people wash their hands of you. Other companies won't want to collaborate with us that much because it won't appear that we are in the know, where if you have a big company that's not doing anything in that world, they're like, oh shit, look at Jet Life, well, let's just fuck with them. Let's put some bridge in them because they can handle this for us, blah, blah, and that be our representation 'cause we're far too big to even try to learn and far too big and far too old to even try to learn that shit, you know what I'm saying? So once they saw we did, that makes us look, you know, mobile, you know what I'm saying?  [00:20:51] Mousa Hamdan: We have to exist in the future. You know, at the end of the day, we got to do what we have to do to let everybody, like he said, we're in the know, you know, we're aware of what's going on, what's coming, what's worth getting involved with, what's not. [00:21:05] Curren$y: And we going to ride with y'all because if it crashes, all us, then it did it off of us. You know what I'm saying? Fuck it. We going to roll too.  [00:21:12] Mousa Hamdan: And even back a long time ago, I don't know if Curren$y even remember this, we did a deal back then with BitTorrent that we released a mixtape on BitTorrent, and it was 'cause the relationship we had with BitTorrent, they wanted to move away from everybody feeling that BitTorrent was a piracy site, and they wanted to like, well what if we give away something that we actually want shared?  [00:21:38] Curren$y: Yeah.  [00:21:38] Mousa Hamdan: And I remember we did that, I think we had like 156 million shares. [00:21:45] Curren$y: Yeah.  [00:21:45] Mousa Hamdan: I told the record label that we were in a deal with at the time and they was like, nah, I got to see that. They didn't believe it. Well, like, what? Don't worry about it. You don't have to believe it. And that's why we're not with y'all now, because y'all don't believe the future. Y'all believing what y'all were taught to believe. [00:22:05] Curren$y: Yep.  [00:22:05] Mousa Hamdan: Rather than having your own mind and realizing things change, the world changes. And you just got to be in the mix. You got to know what's going on. You got to get involved where you fit in.  [00:22:15] Curren$y: You got to appear agile, man.  [00:22:18] Dan Runcie: Stories like that, I feel, is what set y'all apart because if you think back to that time, no one wanted anything to do with BitTorrent or even LimeWire, BearShare, all these places where you could stream music and I get it. It was all the piracy, all the copyright. But at some point, someone asked to be able to say, all right, this is where folks are at. This is how they're getting our music. How could we get our music onto these places? Or how could we just think about it in a different way that isn't just no, don't do that? [00:22:46] Curren$y: Watch it come all the way back to the beginning because we stayed true the entire time, that company that needed to wash his hands and kind of rebirth themselves, needed to stand next to something that was pure the entire time so that they could get some of our life, you feel me? Like, that was the way that shit worked. Their name was so sullied that it was like, okay, as far as music is concerned, people know Jet Life will not falter. They won't fold. They don't go for fucking the dangling carrot. So if we fuck with them, then they would know, like, well, Jet Life wouldn't fuck with us if we were really this pirate fucking factory. So it made everything, you know, legitimate. You know, we saw good in them, so it was cool, yeah.  [00:23:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's interesting too, to make me think about the current thing that people are pushing back on, whether it's streaming farms, you know, people trying to drive up these streams and stuff like that. What's your take on that? Because I feel like, for you, something like that's almost irrelevant because you're not in this to, like, sell your music, so you don't care about charts or probably any of that stuff.  [00:23:52] Curren$y: I can't blame them because it's not like streams, not like that shit pay you a lot of money, you know? I'm saying it takes a lot of streams to make, like, you know, substantial money. It takes a lot of people. A lot of artists don't even understand, you know what I'm saying? Like, the motherfucker call me like, bro, you did a million streams in the day. Like, so what do you think? I'm going to buy a yacht tonight, like, that was worth $12,000, bro, you know what I'm saying? That was worth 12 grand. I was like, don't trip. So I know they need those machines and shit to try and run those streams up. That could be check fraud. Like, they're trying to fucking, they're riding the clock, like, here man, we did 80 zillion billion streams in Apple music. Here's the paperwork. Fucking pay us, man. It could be that, it could be, we need to fucking this shit up so we could get a deal from some other people, maybe Pepsi Cola will reach out to us because they think we going to bring 'em all this attention and fuck them if we can't. The check's already here. You know, everybody's hustling though. It's not righteous, you know, but none of this shit is righteous. And that's kind of the ceiling that we set on ourselves by trying to, like, be legit, you know, it's not like that, you know what I'm saying? So I don't trip off the stream machines and people with the padded streams or, because I understand why they do it. We're blessed to not have to exist that way. And on the other hand, we do a decent amount of streaming because I put out a good amount of music, so I'm not going to do a million every month on one project like these other dudes, like, dude, some people only got to come out two times a year because that project will stream a million fucking streams a month every month all year. But what I will do is probably drop every month and still make it that way, you know what I'm saying? Or drop every two months, you know, and I'm still making that same bread. We just work harder, you know, because we're not doing a lot of the extra shit.  [00:25:56] Mousa Hamdan: It don't hurt that he likes to record and what you're going to do?  [00:25:59] Curren$y: Yeah, for sure.  [00:26:00] Mousa Hamdan: You going to hold all the music? The music's going to sound old. He was writing about a '96 expedition, right? You got to put it out, bro. Next year, that thing's old.  [00:26:11] Curren$y: Yep.  [00:26:12] Mousa Hamdan: So at the end of the day, it don't hurt that he likes to record and the fans like to consume the music. They like the new drops. They don't feel like they're oversaturated with his music. They want more.  [00:26:23] Curren$y: Yeah. The only time we hear that word is from, like, somebody outside. It's like when I'm doing, like, a press run and the people who had to Google me while we were on the elevator and we get up there to interview me, and that's like some shit they say like, so do you think you know about oversaturation? Like, fuck no, I don't think about oversaturation. I only think about my folks, like, you know what I'm saying? That's you. Y'all don't know. Y'all just tired of saying that Curren$y is coming out again with a project. I'm just tired of saying that. It shows up on y'all fucking thing. You have to mention it. You're just tired of saying this shit.  [00:26:58] Dan Runcie: That's them trying to put you into a box. That's them trying to put you into what they know. But like a lot of people that serve their base, you know what they want and you are giving them exactly what they want.  [00:27:08] Curren$y: Well, I mean, we interact with and we're around motherfuckers that come to this store all day, sometimes not even, to buy a shirt, like to be like, bro, when is this dropping? Like, you know, to play something for Instagram, when is this coming out? So we got our finger on the pulse of what's keeping us alive. Like, we check our posts often, you know. [00:27:28] Dan Runcie: For sure. Mousa, I want to talk to you a bit about the business of Jet Life and everything you have going on. And I know we talked a little bit about how touring is a big place where you all are getting a lot of the money, but what does the breakdown look like from a high level? Like, how much of the money you all have coming in is from touring compared to the other businesses and then compared to streaming and the music itself? Like, from like a percentage?  [00:27:53] Mousa Hamdan: Well, I think, of course, since pandemic, the touring has slowed down. We haven't done anything, but I don't think, for a while, I didn't think the people were ready for a tour, you know, because different cities still had different COVID restrictions and vaccination card restrictions, which would limit the fans of coming to the venues. So it wasn't a good look. I spoke to some other artist manager, who is like, yeah, he's on the road, but he's kind of depressed because shows are not selling out. He feels like he lost it. And it's not that, it's just that the environment wasn't for that. You were going out there too fast looking for the money. The good thing with us was, like he said earlier, that if one thing wasn't doing what we wanted, we had something else that was doing it. So, crazily, the apparel skyrocketed during the pandemic.  [00:28:47] Curren$y: And I was the one who thought we needed, I thought we had to stop.  [00:28:51] Mousa Hamdan: Yeah.  [00:28:51] Curren$y: I was like, nobody is going to buy a fucking hoodie.  [00:28:55] Mousa Hamdan: He was like, bro... [00:28:56] Curren$y: There's no toilet paper. There's no fucking lights on in the store. Who the fuck is going to order a shorts, and fuck it, we're selling out of shit.  [00:29:05] Mousa Hamdan: Shit was flying.  [00:29:06] Curren$y: I was watching the news. There's just one, like, who are these people that are buying? Are they aware that this shit's even happening? Do they know they have nowhere to wear it to? And they're just posting the shit in the crib, in our brand new drop. Like, just fucking kicking it. The love was real, and they kept us alive, bro. I bought like fucking three or four cars while the shit was locked down. You couldn't even, we couldn't even go to dealerships, and I was buying cars because people were buying fucking sweatshirts. I'm sorry. I'm going to go back here. Y'all continue with business talk.  [00:29:42] Mousa Hamdan: Definitely. [00:29:43] Curren$y: You know I'm saying? He knows, he knows, he knows.  [00:29:47] Mousa Hamdan: So I think when he drops some music, there's a jump in streams, you know what I'm saying? There's a bigger check coming, you know, apparel, same thing. We drop some, a new line or a new drop, it's bam. You know, everybody wants that, and depending on what it is. But, you know, we tend to drop a good little bit of apparel. So I think now apparel and the music kind of coexist, and both have their times, that one makes a little more than the other and vice versa. The other businesses that are fresh starts are creating a revenue. Of course, we don't expect the nightclub business to make the money that the record label makes, but it's an addition. So it is always like our thought of keep putting in the pot. Eventually, that pot will get full or, like he says in the songs, we're trying to fill up a safe. Once we fill that safe up, we just got to get another safe. We're not going to empty that safe. We're going to get another safe. Now we got to fill that one up, you know? So if, you know, at the end of the day, you know, it is Jet Life, we're going to spread our wings, we're going to see what we can put our hands on that will create a revenue and at the same time, sticking to our morals and beliefs of what we feel like Jet Life should stand for. A lot of people don't know, Jet Life, at the beginning, Jets was just an acronym. Just enjoy this shit. So that's what we're doing. We're enjoying it. Or like I tell people, Jet Life has just enjoy this life. So that's where we're at with it, steadily growing, steadily trying to get involved in everything that makes sense. You know, If it doesn't make sense, we leave it alone. So the revenue streams, like I said, it kind of goes back and forth. Apparel definitely is a world of its own now. Apparel is great. You know, we moved from, originally, like you said, with touring. That's when I realized that the apparel was so good because at touring, we were selling so much what I consider tour merch, you know, which is just the name of the show, the city's on the back, a picture of Curren$y on the shirt. You know, all the fans want it. They're like, man, they really love this shit. They're buying it.  [00:31:56] Curren$y: That was just a tour shirt.  [00:31:58] Mousa Hamdan: So then I was like, well, damn, I'd rather wear our own clothes when I want to go to the nightclub, when I go out to eat, or if I just want to hang around. I don't want to wear a tour shirt all the time, but I want to wear something.  [00:32:12] Curren$y: And I didn't want to wear no shirt with my name on it. [00:32:15] Mousa Hamdan: Right. He doesn’t want pictures of himself. [00:32:17] Curren$y: I don't want no shirt with me on it, no shirt with my name on it 'cause like, who the fuck am I? You know what I'm saying? Who am I, you know, to even do that?  [00:32:27] Dan Runcie: Right. 'Cause that's more like merch, right? And I didn't know that people use merch, but like, no, y'all have a clothing apparel. [00:32:33] Mousa Hamdan: Tour merch. And then we changed it to apparel. Apparel, which you wear on a daily thing, every morning you wake up and you put apparel. You were sleeping in apparel. So we had to reach that. And then every couple of months we just think, what else can we make? What else? 'Cause you know, we started with just t-shirts, you know, then went to hoodies and long sleeves. And then we're like, we got to start getting bottoms and we got to get hats and you know, so now we're, you know, building into accessories and whatever else people may like. And at the same time as well, like I said, we test fitted on ourselves. If it's something that we don't want to wear, I'll always show him stuff like, look, these are some of the new designs. This is some of the stuff that you talked about with me that we created. Now it's on paper. Do you like it? If you like it, let's push the button. Let's go with it. If it's something you would wear. 'Cause at the end of the day, if he doesn't wear it, if I don't wear it, if the other artists on Jet Life don't wear it... [00:33:33] Curren$y: It will sit in the warehouse.  [00:33:35] Mousa Hamdan: Why would we expect a fan or a fellow lifer to wear it? They don't want to wear something that you don't even want to wear yourself. So if we don't want to create nothing that we don't like. You know, and that's just, I think our business model with everything we do. We don't want to do anything that we don't agree with. We don't want to do anything that goes against what we stand for.  [00:33:58] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And the point again about the merch, too, I think Curren$y, you had this line in maybe it's an interview, I think you said, but it's like, no one's calling you Sean John merch, right? As you're telling Diddy like, oh yeah, I like your merch.  [00:34:12] Curren$y: Right. You know what I'm saying? And just, we have to stand on that, you know? And I think we have for a long time, and it made people change the perception of it, you know. Before, like, just, the fact that we stand behind it like that, it made people buy it who maybe weren't even thinking about it because it made people want to look at it a little more to not like it, you know, like people came in to find like what was wrong. And then it's like, well, shit's just actually, you know, I'm going to buy the shirt, you know what I'm saying? Like, they were coming to point out why it was just merch and it wasn't, you know?  [00:34:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. One other question for you, Mousa, about touring itself and just doing live shows. Because of how well the apparel's going right now and how the business overall may have changed since the pandemic, do you ever think that you'll go back to doing the same number of shows that you were doing before the pandemic because of how much success you have with everything else? Do you think it'll scale back a bit at all? [00:35:10] Mousa Hamdan: In my mind, I've always lived thinking never forget where this started from and never forget what created this lane for you to get into. Without the touring, I never knew how much the merch sold. And I noticed that with a lot of artists, there's a lot of artists that don't sell merch, and they don't know the money that they're missing. So without the touring, without the shows that we do, like he said, we put a finger on the pulse of the fans. Well, we'll know who's coming to these shows, you know, and you can see when, all right, well, the shows are getting a little light, so what is it we're doing wrong? There's something that we're missing. Same thing with the apparel. When sales are a little low then I'm like, well, what are we doing that we used to do better? Or what are we missing? Are we getting laid back? Are we feeling like it just is what it is now? But being involved in it like that, I think, keeps us on with whatever else we're doing 'cause it's going to keep telling us, like, this is the pulse of the people. This is what you're doing. So I think we'll always do tours. Maybe we're not, you know, one time we did, I think it was 60 shows in 70 days, which was crazy.  [00:36:23] Curren$y: 63.  [00:36:24] Mousa Hamdan: Yeah, it was, yeah, crazy. Show every night, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And they're like, whoa, when is the break, bro? Like, when are we? So I don't think we'll do that. But we're going to stay out there, you know, as long as the people want to see, and he's got fresh music that he wants to perform. And you know, he's an artist, I think, that feeds off the energy, you know. And if the crowd doesn't have the energy, he's like, why am I here? Why am I performing for these people? They don't really want to see me because the energy is not there. So as long as we're feeling the energy, then I think we're there. Hopefully, I don't see it going down no time soon. You know, we're going to keep doing whatever it is that allows us what the universe puts for us to do, you know? And we're just going to be there.  [00:37:08] Dan Runcie: How do you look at doing your own shows versus doing festivals? Do you have preferences? I feel like for an artist like you, your own shows where your people are going to be at, right? [00:37:18] Curren$y: Yeah, bro. This is a whole other show. Don't do it. We love, we love, we love festival checks. If I had to pick, I like, you know, me at the House of Blues. I know exactly that the people who are in there, like, are there for what we going to do, you know what I'm saying? The festival, I've been blessed to be a person that you kind of, you can't get around me in the game, you know what I'm saying? So when you don't fuck with me, people speak out to you. You look stupid, you know what I'm saying? You look crazy. So people put me on shit, like just, no, we got to have him on this festival. We got to put him on this. We got to put him on this, you know what I'm saying? And my core people are there, but they're surrounded by people who are, like, waiting for like the next person to come out and like spit fire, you know what I'm saying? And walk on the crowd, pop, you know, like, I can't do it. I'll never do it, you know? So I'm like, I don't want to put my listeners through it because and they're in there like, shit, man. There's, like, a kid who kept, like, elbowing me, you know what I'm saying? Like, some of my listeners are, like, there's always somebody to put me to the side, like, yo, I'm 51, my nigga, like, this is the shit I'll listen to. So them, them dudes don't, they don't want that. Those ladies, like, who pull me to the side, like, boy, look, you know, I could be... I'm like, Yeah, you don't have time for, you know, for that. So I like to do just my thing. But the festival checks go directly to the sports car dealerships. Like, those are the checks that get you off the lot though. So, you know, you're being a fool not to do it, you know? And that's just business.  [00:39:03] Mousa Hamdan: The checks are good, yes, but I think as well... [00:39:08] Curren$y: He makes sense with this. I know what he coming with this, but I'm going to tell you, they're coming to business. He makes sense.  [00:39:12] Mousa Hamdan: Sometimes, I honestly, in a lot of things that we do, I always tell him, I think he underestimates his reach, you know, and he's too humble to the point of, nah, bro, like, they're not really here for me and this, that, and the other. Now, I'll be honest with you, we had one festival show. I was a little worried. We got on stage. He wasn't on stage. He was backstage, so he didn't know nothing was going on. I literally walked to the DJ. I said, bro, this is probably our last festival 'cause it was like, there was literally 10 people in front the stage. I said, bro, if he gets out here and there's 10 people out here, he's liable to walk off stage, bro, so listen to me. The intro started and it looked like a rush. Like, I didn't know who. They had about 5,000 people or better rush to the stage. And I like, whoa, that's more like it. Then he came out, he didn't see the dead part. He saw that part. He was like, oh, my people are here. They're here. They showed up. They showed up. I'm like, you just don't know. They really did show up 'cause they wasn't here five minutes ago.  [00:40:22] Curren$y: They just showed up. [00:40:23] Mousa Hamdan: Bro, but then that's understanding the festivals. You got six stages.  [00:40:28] Curren$y: Yeah.  [00:40:29] Mousa Hamdan: They're trying to catch everybody. [00:40:30] Curren$y: I was posting one time, there's a way to do it, you know what I'm saying? As long as you are vocal about what time you go on, your people will navigate through to get there for you, you know what I'm saying? But you also, you got the people who're waiting for somebody else 'cause I'm like, it's a gift and the curse, 'cause, like, I'm, like, the most known unknown. So it's, like they know they can't put me on at fucking one o'clock, you know what I'm saying? So then when you put me on at, like, eight, and then there's, like, whoever the fucking, whoever name was written this big on the flyer, this guy's coming after me, all right. The kids who are waiting for this guy are, like, have been pressed against the barricade for hours, like since 11:00 AM. When I come out there with my low-impact workout, like they're fucking dying, like looking at me and I'm like, I get it. Don't trip. I fuck with this guy's music too. He'll be out here in a minute, and I hope he does a backflip on top of you when he does, you know what I'm saying? Like, that shit kind of fuck with me because I'm delivering a real message. Like, every word I write, like, I mean it. So I really don't want to say it sweating to a person who's like this, like on the barricade, just like, bro, please stop. We get it. You like Chevys, you want us all to get rich? Fucking shut up. We want to fucking rap about drugs. Where's the next guy? So that shit kind of make you not want to do it. But then this guy, fucking, he's also the person who says this like, okay, you also woke some people up to the music you make. Then there's always, like, when I get done, the people who work the festival, the grounds, are, like, bro, I never heard this shit, but this was real music. Like, I couldn't understand nobody else's words, you know what I'm saying? This is fucking good. So I'm like, well, that's cool. I do leave out there with more listeners than I did, you know what I'm saying? It might be 12, it might be 150. He going to count every dollar for each one via stream, so I understand where he comes from with that. But I always like, I say it to myself sometimes, and sometimes when it gets too heavy to me, I say to the people around me, I'm like, bro, I'm actually the only one who fucking have to go and do that shit. Like, I get it. We all here, we all fucking supporting, but they're not looking at you, like, get the fuck out. And you got to do this shit for 45 minutes, you know what I'm saying? Sure. There's some people who are enjoying it, but the motherfucker who's right in front of you is dying, and you have to continue to have a good time. Like, that shit is like being a fucking Disney World animatronic or, being like a Chuck E. Cheese thing. Like, that's a rough time for me for sure. But it works, you know? That's anybody's job. [00:43:27] Dan Runcie: It's a balance, right? [00:43:28] Curren$y: You know, a hundred percent love any fucking gig that you have, any job you have, bro. I'm sure everybody at NBA, that was their dream, to go to the NBA. Some of those days sucked though for those dudes, you know what I'm saying? So it ain't always going to be the shit. The situation overall is one that I wouldn't trade for the world.  [00:43:48] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And you mentioned too that the money that you're getting from the festivals is going to the sports car dealership. Can we talk a little bit about that? How's that business set up and how's that been going?  [00:44:01] Curren$y: Oh, well, me and Mousa, we've always been kind of into, like, bringing cars back to life, restoring things, and shit. But I've been holding on 'em. But as of late, we're building a stable of vehicles to kind of release onto the public, but it'll be like a collection, the same way we come out with clothes. There'll be like six vehicles put up for sale at one time that we cultivate and put together. We putting together a BMW, a few vintage sports car that we putting together. We're going to roll 'em all out at one time, you know what I'm saying? So I expect them all to be gone, like, within the week. I expect it to be like shoes. Like, I expect motherfuckers to try it and everybody will blow. You know, everybody try their hands at the shit we do. So another motherfucker with a bigger audience and shit will try to do the same thing, but you know, who cooked that shit up first.  [00:44:52] Mousa Hamdan: Okay. They know, They know where they got the idea from. [00:44:56] Curren$y: Yeah, they know, too, so it don't matter.  [00:44:59] Dan Runcie: Speaking of cars and trendssetting, I know you got a partnership with NASCAR as well, and I feel like there's another thing, too, where not a lot of hip hop artists are doing those deals, but we are just seeing the way things are trended now. Everyone will be following to that. And you got the Jet Life cup series. All right, let's talk about it.  [00:45:16] Curren$y: Yeah, man. Yeah, man. Well, yeah. People of any other nationality other than the original rebel down home boys were not involved in NASCAR and they fucking, they had it that way. They built it that way, executive-wise, it's not like that anymore. Now, you know, doors have been broken down, kicked in, and open-minded. People are now there, and it's made it more accessible for fans. I was shocked when I went that I saw like groups of different people, I don't want to just say black people, just different people in general because the other side of it, the way it was, they weren't picking what nationality or what people they didn't want, they didn't want nothing else, but what the fuck they had, you know? So it's way different now in all aspects. It's not just minorities selling nachos. They driving the cars. They are the ones like turning the wrenches and making sure shit is right. They got headsets on, they out there doing the real thing. And I brought one of my younger homies with me, it blew him away. He's at school for engineering, and he was just, he was nervous for us to even be out there. I made a few small jokes to my friends when we first got there based on the appearance and how it looked. But it really wasn't like that once you got down into the meeting. And I read on social media, like I read a few comments. There were some people who were not excited about our presence. There's some people who weren't into the collaboration. I saw one thing under a video that I was so sad 'cause I was like, I hope my mom don't see it. Because the motherfucker was like, what is he coming to steal? And I was like, damn, if my mama sees that, she'll probably cry, you know what I'm saying? Like, it'll take a minute for me to get her over that shit. But what are you going to do? You know what I'm saying? This shit, you can't blame the behavior 'cause it was taught a long time ago. Like, they didn't pop out like that. That's what that motherfucker told him to do, you know what I'm saying? And what we doing is playing the hand and telling the people who are receptive and the new people, the younger generation, like, it could go this way instead, you know what I'm saying? Like, we were up in all the suites and eating NASCAR food, you know, and actually, I'm going to say this, I was a little bummed with the NASCAR because we couldn't get a Coca-Cola badge on our jersey. We wanted to have it because the race that day was actually Coke Zero, Coke Zero 400, all right. So, when they originally had the design meeting for the package, they included Coca-Cola logo because that was the race, you know, that's when it was coming up. And I think like they did the same thing, like, whoever is involved with the collaborations just did a little brief overview of who I was or what I was about, and they're like, oh, no. So like, that kind of fucked me up.  [00:48:17] Mousa Hamdan: They'll be back though. They'll be back.  [00:48:19] Curren$y: Yeah. But you know, like, I was like, well this still, you know, shit is still hard, you know? But with time, with time, yeah. And I don't know. And then, and I didn't like the you got gang with you. I heard over there, I'm sorry.  [00:48:32] Mousa Hamdan: Oh, yeah. [00:48:32] Dan Runcie: That's from fans or was that from NASCAR?  [00:48:35] Curren$y: No, no. [00:48:35] Mousa Hamdan: Coke exec.  [00:48:36] Curren$y: Just one of the brass at Coca-Cola. And I drank a lot of Coca-Cola, so I really do need to stop, but for health and maybe for business, because motherfucker was like, to the representative from NASCAR who was showing us to where we were going to go to sit down, like, in the suite. He's like, oh, you got a gang with you. And I was just like, damn, like. I'm sure maybe I'm looking at it with a microscope, you know.  [00:49:01] Dan Runcie: But still though, you can't say that, yeah.  [00:49:04] Curren$y: I really don't know, I just don't know. I just was on the fence. I thought about it a lot. I think about it.  [00:49:09] Dan Runcie: But like, they wouldn't say that if, like, Jason Aldean walked up in there with a group of folks. [00:49:13] Curren$y: You got a lot of people with you, you know I'm saying? It wasn't like he said the gang's all here. If he said the gang's all here, that would not have hit me like that. People say that the gang's all here, that doesn't mean that you got a street gang here.  [00:49:29] Mousa Hamdan: Right. [00:49:29] Curren$y: But, whoa, you got a gang with you.  [00:49:33] Mousa Hamdan: He could have said, Hey fellas and just kept it moving. [00:49:36] Curren$y: Yeah.  [00:49:36] Mousa Hamdan: How y'all doing guys?  [00:49:38] Curren$y: Yeah.  [00:49:38] Mousa Hamdan: And you didn't have to make conversation with us. You were just passing. [00:49:41] Curren$y: It felt like it was a Chappelle show skit because it could have been where keeping the real goes wrong. Because I was like, half step, like, trying to see if I could make eye contact with one of my friends who felt like maybe that was wrong and I had support in, like, hey man, like, what? But it could have went way south. Like, there could be no more NASCAR 'cause shit if we could, would've did that. You know, we just might not have the Coca-Cola on the next one. Or maybe we will, maybe they're like, oh, shit, man. We didn't mean that. I thought I did say that gang's all here. Let's put a badge on the fucking next jacket, you know, it might work that way. And that's business and that's why we're here talking, you know? And and that's why it it pays to be true to yourself within your business. And if your circle is small, it's easier for you to be honest and not worry about if something sounds stupid or anything because, like, we have a yin and a yang, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's what makes it work.  [00:50:37] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think that's a good note to close things out. And I want to get your thoughts on this question because as you started with the beginning, y'all have been together for a while, even in this conversation, we can see that chemistry between the two of you, that yin and the yang, you understand each other. What do you think is the secret for having the artist and manager that just stay with each other? 'Cause there's so many times that, either other artists or other managers that have been on this show and they're like, oh, yeah, you know, so and so fired me.  [00:51:04] Curren$y: Somebody lied in the beginning. [00:51:07] Mousa Hamdan: Right.  [00:51:08] Curren$y: Just like, who fucks up anything. You know, like, just somebody lied in the beginning. The artist was signed to nine different managers. Everybody loaned him $1,500 to help him do something. He's just signing with whoever's going to fucking give him a fucking chain or watch, and he's not being honest. Or there's a fucking, like, a discrepancy on this stack of paperwork or something, and this guy's outsmarting the artist and fucking going to rob and blind, you know what I'm saying? Like, if that happens in the beginning, the intentions are bad in the beginning, then you'll see where it looked good and then it fall into pieces because you find out, you know what I'm saying? Like, fucking, when we read for fucking N.W.A, which is one thing I didn't turn down, I was down to do that. He's coming to me with movie shit. Do you want to read this? Do you want to do this? No, no, no, no. They're like, do you want to be Easy-E? And I was like, no. At first I was like, no, like, they should call his son, you know what I'm saying? But then I end up reading for it, and then they end up getting a guy from New Orleans anyhow. So that was cool. I'm like, damn, I probably could have got that shit. But nonetheless, the part that we were reading, it was after Easy-E's wife went through the paperwork that he did with Jerry Heller and she brought, like, so much shit, attention to him. And when E and Jerry had this talk, it made Jerry cry because he was leaving even though he did so much wrong shit. But in his heart of hearts, he probably didn't think it was wrong 'cause he took dude from nothing. But it was still bad and he couldn't believe how quick Eric was ready to shut the shit down. But it's because he was wrong. Like, once that, there's nothing you could do after that. Once it get like that, it shut down. That shit is heartbreaking. And we never, like, we have not hurt each other like in that aspect, you know what I'm saying? Like, when I came to him, I was like, look, I don't, you know what I'm saying, I ain't signed nothing yet, but this is what's going on. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. That's that, you know. I don't know, I'm going to go talk ahead, I'm going to do this and get this and then not say this. You know, he don't fucking pop up and see I'm doing the show in Colorado and, you know what I'm saying, I didn't say anything. I just went, flew out and oh no, I made just 30 grand right quick, you know. That there's just, it's all on the up, bro. So with that, you know, you stay friends, we friends first all.  [00:53:28] Mousa Hamdan: That's I think the biggest thing.  [00:53:29] Curren$y: Yeah. If he wasn't in my homie, then we wouldn't do business.  [00:53:31] Mousa Hamdan: We started as friends, and then we continued to be friends in this.  [00:53:36] Curren$y: Yeah. All the way through. [00:53:38] Mousa Hamdan: We're business partners, but we never was just business partners. We was always friends to begin with.  [00:53:44] Curren$y: Right. So that make you not be able to do no fucked up business.  [00:53:48] Mousa Hamdan: And then we trust each other.  [00:53:49] Curren$y: You know what I'm saying? You can't do that to your friend. [00:53:52] Mousa Hamdan: Trust is big, you know. I think he trusts my decisions, I trust his decisions. And then we talk about things, like he said, we were going to always converse about whatever decisions we want make. If there's ever a thought, I think, you know, this may be wrong or whatever, I'm going to consult with him as if he was my manager, you know what I'm saying? So we're going to talk and the trust issue, I always hear that, you know, how, why y'all been together so long? I'm like, if you build a business, who builds a business to separate, right? We build a business together  [00:54:24] Curren$y: Who are these people that you're with? Who's in your car? Who the fuck are you riding with in the car? Like, who? That's why. That's why I said, like, having 19 and 30 motherfuckers. Like, now there might be 30 people in this building at a time, and they all could have a Jet Life chain, they all be a part of what's going on. But at the end of the day, you know what I'm saying? When it'll come down, it'll come down. Like, we got to sit down and fucking, you know what I'm saying, and put it together, you know. Everybody respect that because when we come out the room, we come out the with the right answer. I might have the wrong answer, but this ain't here. When we come out the room, we present the right answer.  [00:55:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, a hundred percent right. And I feel like y'all got the right mentality. It speaks to everything that you've accomplished up to this date and excited to continue to see where it goes, right? Like you said, this is a balloon, and we want to keep seeing how this balloon continues to grow slowly. So, I mean, congrats to y'all on everything that've done. [00:55:17] Curren$y: Got new music dropping Friday, so if this don't get to them this week, you, bro, you know for sure, Friday, I got music dropping. [00:55:26] Dan Runcie: Okay. Yeah. I was going to ask you what else you got coming up and if people want to follow you, where's the best place for them to check in with you, both of you. [00:55:32] Curren$y: Car is outside, but I don't suggest you follow me. @spitta_andretti, Instagram. S P I T T A underscore A N D R E T T I. Twitter, well, I have a lot of fun at Twitter. Instagram has gotten really weird. It's really, like, tough to figure that out. It's nuts. Twitter is staying true. Curren$y with an S because they don't recognize a dollar sign. So C U R R E N S Y underscore Spitta, S P I T T A. And you know what? They had a fake Curren$y when I first got to Twitter. That's why I had to make that name like that, @CurrensySpitta, because there was already somebody who was saying he was me and he had like pictures and everything. That's fucked up, yeah, but nah.  [00:56:17] Dan Runcie: And what about you Mousa?  [00:56:19] Mousa Hamdan: I'm on, pretty much all the handles are the same, @mousa504, M O U S A 5 0 4, that's going to be on whatever, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, anything, you know. I stick to that same handle.  [00:56:33] Curren$y: Oh, we also got the partnership with Sovereign Brands, Villon France, this is our cognac that we are standing behind. That's just one more thing on the number. I forgot. It doesn't help your memory. It tastes good. It doesn't help your memory. I forgot to mention that we were doing it. [00:56:49] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. We could do a whole follow up episode on all of that. All of these deals. Role you've turned down, too, but we'll have to check it the next time. Appreciate you both, man. Thank you.  [00:56:58] Mousa Hamdan: Appreciate you.  [00:56:59] Curren$y: Cheers, bro. [00:57:00] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Most artists want career growth and they want it fast — sometimes to a fault. This is where Curren$y is an outlier. From the jump, Curren$y set out to grow both his career and fanbase slowly but steadily. He successfully did that and it’s a reason why he’s not only stayed in the rap game for almost twenty years, but is now still earning more money, and at a career point where most of his peers coming up have already fizzled out.


Curren$y and his longtime manager, Mousa, joined me on this week’s episode to explain how zigging when others zagged contributed to their career longevity. One instance is leaving his hometown Cash Money Records label to create their own, Jet Life. The two have been able to morph the brand into a full-on business empire that now includes apparel, athlete management, products, and more verticals on top of the music label. 


The duo built Jet Life on the back of touring and being true to their audience. To do so, they turned down more brand partnerships they can remember and even music festival appearances at times — no matter how good the bag was for each. These trend-bucking moves were covered at length in our interview. Here’s what we covered:


[3:15] New Orleans folks are immune to heat

[4:44] Mousa and Curren$y relationship began in 2005

[8:49] Growing Jet Life business beyond a record label

[11:45] Turning down non-authentic business opportunities

[15:59] Emphasizing touring early in Curren$y’s career

[19:21] Releasing an EP as an NFT

[23:52] Curren$y’s take on streaming farms

[29:47] Macro-view of Jet Life revenue streams

[34:47] Touring is cornerstone of Jet Life business

[37:08] Performing on own shows vs. music festivals

[43:48] Festival money goes to sports car dealership

[45:16] Curren$y’s partnership with NASCAR (and problems with Coca-Cola)

[50:37] What’s the secret to a great artist-manager relationship?


 

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Mousa Hamdan & Curren$y, @MOUSA504 & @spitta_andretti

 

 

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TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Curren$y: You can always expand and try new things, but if it feels wrong on the core, then you're setting yourself up. We never made a move like that. No matter what deal comes across the table 'cause he's money first. But he'll tell the people, the check writer like, man, just let me talk to bro. Because at the end of the day, he's going to hear me say it's half a million dollars, but he might say it's a boring job and he might not want to do it. 

[00:00:32] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 

[00:00:54] Dan Runcie: Listen, you're going to love today's episode. It is with one of the most successful independent artists in the game and his longtime manager. We got Curren$y and we got Mousa. If you've been following Curren$y's journey for a while, you know that he was originally on No Limit Records 20 years ago. He left the record label. He then went to join Young Money. He was a little early on the Young Money Train, but he ended up leaving the record label before Nicki and before Drake blew up and he started his own. He started Jet Life, and he's been building up his career as an independent artist, and it's been great to see how he has navigated both how he releases music and also how he approached his business overall. And that was a big focus of this episode. We talked about his strategy for releasing music, and Curren$y is someone that is very prolific in terms of the amount of music that he puts out, but it also gets him plenty of opportunities to be able to go on tour, to be able to have several other business ventures that they have through Jet Life and through other areas. We talked about what they're doing in cannabis as well. We talked about the nightclub that they have, the apparel business, and a whole lot more. We also talked about a few partnerships that you may be surprised by, but I still think that fit well within the ethos for what Jet Life is and what Curren$y is trying to build. We even talked about some of the movie deals and opportunities that Curren$y had turned down. I don't want to spoil it. It's a really good one, but this was a really fascinating conversation, is also been great to just see how long these two have stuck together. If you're a big fan of this podcast, these are the type of episodes that you come for. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Curren$y and Mousa. 

[00:02:41] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're joined by the duo themselves. We got Curren$y and we got Mousa here, the artist-manager combination. How are you guys doing? 

[00:02:49] Curren$y: Man, we can't complain. The weather is nice outside and it is been pretty bad out here in Orleans. It's been a hundred degrees and raining every day, but right now it's sunny, 86 degrees, you know what I'm saying? I got long sleeves on, top down, having a good day. I can't complain. 

[00:03:07] Dan Runcie: See, that's the one thing about folks I know from New Orleans, like it could be 86 degrees and y'all are still in long sleeves. Y'all are still in hoodies. 

[00:03:15] Curren$y: Well, it is, well, because it is the heat, we're already adjusting. It's just hot in here. So now we've gone more fashion-forward, bro. It's like, just fuck it, bro. Wear what you want to wear because it's still going to be 190 degrees no matter what. So just go for it. I don't really condone that lifestyle unless you have a car. A lot of my younger brothers I see walking up and down the street, and they definitely look like they're about to commit crimes because it's a hundred degrees and they got on the hoodie and I'm, like, weary of, I'm like, hold on, you know what I'm saying, because, fuck, that don't make no sense. You dressed for action. But if you are in the car, you are in the office, you are in the studio. That's where that look really originated. People always tell me, II'm dressed like that forever, but it's been because most of my life has been like tour bus, studio, even when it wasn't me, I was like a little guy on Masterpiece bus. It was 60 degrees, you know what I'm saying? And these big mansions, it's cold as shit. So I just grew acclimated to dressing like that. I think I might have spearheaded that. I honestly, I think that I may have spearheaded that, but what haven't we spearheaded over here, you know?

[00:04:25] Dan Runcie: It's true, especially folks at New Orleans, folks like y'all are trendsetters. And one of the things that I feel like sets y'all apart is that you've been doing this for so long, and you've been doing this for so long together. I mean, Mousa, you've been managing Curren$y now for, since '05, right? I know you do 'em before, but you started managing, like, '05, right?

[00:04:44] Mousa Hamdan: We're friends before, but definitely since '05, since he joined in with Lil Wayne, with Young Money, Cash Money. So I think that's when he brought me on and asked me to come on as his manager. 

[00:04:53] Curren$y: Yep. Yeah. 

[00:04:54] Mousa Hamdan: And you know...

[00:04:55] Curren$y: As soon as there was business to manage. 

[00:04:58] Mousa Hamdan: Right. 

[00:04:58] Curren$y: You know, right? While I was just slinging t-shirts, like ordering 28 t-shirts on a month, pressing CDs upstairs at my apartment, that was easy to do. When it began to grow and I saw, like, my two homes wasn't going to be enough to handle it, you know, what could I do but reach out to the one homie who I knew forever who don't want to smoke no weed with me, who don't want to get drunk with me, you know what I'm saying? Like, who's just like totally, his high is the business, deals closed and stuff gone successfully is him having a drink, you know what I'm saying? So it worked. It works like that.

[00:05:36] Mousa Hamdan: Definitely. I like achieving goals. You know, I'm a goal seeker. And once you achieve one goal, set another one, you know? And that's my inspiration is to see how big we could really take this Jet Life, how, you know, how big deal this will be, and how long we can make it last. I mean, I thought about this morning, I was talking to one of my other homies, I was like, we've been in this game a minute, bro. Like, and he was like, look, I've been home for a little while and y'all been doing this a long time. So I say, yeah, definitely, but we not done, you know. We’re nowhere near done. We really just starting, we really starting to grow even more now. 

[00:06:12] Curren$y: That's crazy to say that, and that's really the truth, to be here in the game. Like, Jet Life, we're like over a decade, and each year it just gets bigger. That's really what you want. It's not a big, hasn't been just one big explosion. It's a slow burn. But it is guaranteed. And we've always grown. A lot of times you see people struggling, like, not to lose ground in the game, you know, and stay relevant. And that's never been a problem with us because we've been blessed to be able to, like, generate or, like, create our own world, you know what I'm saying? And the people who listen to our music or who dress, some people dress only in Jet Life apparel. And it is because they don't give a fuck about nothing else, you know what I'm saying? They've had their time to see what the world had to offer, and they saw that ours was just uncompromised. So they lend themselves to it a hundred percent. And that's been enough to sustain, like, the lifestyle that we have. And the people that support us, they like to pass by the Jet Life store just to see what cars we might have outside. So they continue to support us because now we're going to park more and more shit. Like, they the ones who help us do it, you know? So it's good. It's good. 

[00:07:27] Mousa Hamdan: It definitely is. It's really a lifestyle, you know? I think it's, you know, from the beginning I remember, Curren$y said in interviews as well as told me directly, like, you know, his vision of seeing how Jet Life and how he wanted to grow. He always said it was like a balloon. And I listened, I heard that, and I was like, he's right. He's like, you could either, you could blow air in it fast and it's going to blow big and then it's going to explode and it's over. Or you could blow in it slow and it's going to slowly blow. 

[00:07:57] Curren$y: Yeah. Fucking right. 

[00:07:58] Mousa Hamdan: Then you show the longevity. And that's what we did. We're blowing it slow. 

[00:08:02] Curren$y: Yep.

[00:08:03] Mousa Hamdan: But look at us. We're still here. There's a lot of people that we saw that came before us and during us who we feel like, oh yeah, they got the light quick and they blew up fast. But then what happened? And you know, they're not around no more.

[00:08:16] Curren$y: Something explodes, it ceases to exist.

[00:08:19] Mousa Hamdan: It's done.

[00:08:20] Curren$y: I've never seen anything, you know what I'm saying, explode that still had it ever, you know? 

[00:08:26] Dan Runcie: Right, oh yeah. You know, and I feel like with y'all, specifically, you're able to see the trajectory. You're able to see everything that you've accomplished, too, because I look at Jet Life, and it started as the imprint for your record label, but now you have your apparel, you also have the other businesses you have. How would you describe the current businesses? What are the current things under Jet Life right now? 

[00:08:49] Mousa Hamdan: Well, we got, of course, like you said, it started with records, Jet Life Records. And then it went to, we started doing tour merch, which grew into Jet Life Apparel. We were in now Jet Life Athletics. So we started to do deals with managing athletes and growing that brand. Then of course, we've other stuff that's not necessarily labeled Jet Life, but we've opened up a nightclub in New Orleans, so so that's something that's coming. 

[00:09:16] Curren$y: We got a big footprint in the cannabis community. We got a couple of other startups, like a coffee shop and a cereal bar we're going to launch. We already have two films out, so, I mean, if you want to say Jet Life Films is in existence, that is true. It's so much stuff that we do, but the circle is so tight, like, nobody's going to tell the other one. Like, bro, you realize what we doing because we are still in the midst of doing it. Like, an outside person would have to come in and really show us how many businesses and what's all under the umbrella 'cause we really just wake up and try to, like, just make sure we make something happen, you know, every day. If you want to label it and put a name on it, then, it was news to me, right now just listening to how much stuff we have going on. 

[00:10:04] Mousa Hamdan: We forgot Starting Line Hobbies.

[00:10:06] Curren$y: Yeah, we got hobby shop bro, like that. See? So the more you sit down… 

[00:10:11] Mousa Hamdan: We forget some of the business. But they exist and they're profitable, right?

[00:10:16] Curren$y: He's got an auto body shop, it's still in existence. That's really where a lot of it comes from, his whole foray into it all was being able to survive if one thing fell down. Even though the music was the one that paved the way and drew the attention, the industry is fickle. So you see people like, we see them rise and you think they going to build this whole empire, they end up with a warehouse full of shit. They can't move bobbleheads of themselves. Nobody wants t-shirts, nobody wants home furnishing. Nobody wants it, fucking goes that way, you know what I'm saying? And we've been blessed to like, now we got two or three warehouses, you know what I'm saying? But we're moving the shit, you know. So it's just about staying true and not, we never really tried to do too much, nothing outside of what felt right to us. You can always expand and try new things, but if it feels wrong on the core, then you're setting yourself up. We never made a move like that. No matter what deal comes across the table 'cause he's money first. But he'll tell the people, the check writer like, man, just let me talk to bro. Because at the end of the day, he's going to hear me say it's half a million dollars, but he might say it's a boring job and he might not want to do it even though it's half a million dollars. So he'll just check with me, you know what I'm saying? We probably go and do the 'shit anyway 'cause it's half a million dollars. But he checks with me because in my heart of hearts, I might want to say no, but I got a kid and shit. 

[00:11:45] Mousa Hamdan: I'll definitely ask him. Do you want to do this though? 

[00:11:49] Curren$y: Yeah. And I got respect for him for doing that. The fact that he compromised his money mentality that asks me that much, gives me the strength to be able to say, you know what, fuck it, bro, you gave, I'll give. I'm going to come and do this shit, you know what I'm saying? And then lo and behold everybody wins, you know? 

[00:12:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah. What's an example of something that you have turned down? Like, Mousa, 'cause it sounds like you're the one that's seeing the things and you're thinking about, oh, this is the bag, but is this something that fits with the Jet Life lifestyle?

[00:12:18] Curren$y: There's a lot of those, like, TV shit that'll come across, you know what I'm saying? I hope that he knows, I don't care. So he would say, I'm going to jump out in front of you, like, you don't see because these people still come up with more and more ideas. And eventually, they might put, they might table something that we want to pick up. But we've slammed them because it's like, bro, you know, just looking at something where they say, well, he can say it in his own words, but the way they phrase it makes me like, I'll never put this in my own words, I don't want to fucking do it. You know, just fuck it, you know what I'm saying? Or like post, they'll try, you know, they'll pay you for social media stuff just to say you like something or you can't wait for something to fucking hit the theaters. And I'm like, you know what? Fuck no. I don't want to say that. Because as soon as I post this, my fucking true audience is going to say, you know, how much did you get, bro? They'll say shit like that. I don't want to play them like that. 

[00:13:15] Mousa Hamdan: Yeah. I think we've known each other long enough and I know his answers on some things. Some things I won't even bring to him.

[00:13:22] Curren$y: For sure. 

[00:13:23] Mousa Hamdan: You know, we had some stuff like, you know, I'll be honest with you, like, you know, media companies that come and say, well, you know, let me post this on your page or do this, that, and the others, and it's clickbait. And he was like, nah, bro, I don't want my fans clicking on that. 

[00:13:37] Curren$y: Yeah, I don't want that. I'm the one who have to answer for this shit.

[00:13:41] Mousa Hamdan: I don't care how much it is. And the fans aren't crazy. They'll be like, Curren$y, that shit was clickbait, bro. 

[00:13:46] Curren$y: They're like, what? Or you had to, bro? Like, I have all that kind of shit. So I'm just like, let's save the company who wants to pay us the embarrassment of when they realized this was not organic and it didn't cross over. Like, now they won't want to spend any money. They may not want to spend money with us later on, on something that might actually work, you know? So it's just better to just say, you know, it is better to protect yourself that way. You end up in the long run, you still make that money. A few times people have double-backed because they realize, you know what, that was kind of lame. I can't believe we asked them to do that shit. And then they come back with something way dope after they've researched me, you know? 'Cause immediately you do a Google search and you are like, all right, cool. We'll get him to do the new weed spray. Let's get him to endorse this new air freshener that kills the weeds, man. Like, bro, the fuck? Like, I'm not even living like that. I'm actually a boss and I don't have to conceal the weed smell in my fucking life, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not promoting shit. 

[00:14:46] Dan Runcie: I'm even come to you with a deal like that though, knowing you. 

[00:14:50] Mousa Hamdan: Yeah, yeah. They'll bring all type of deals, bro. They'll try and get you out of character if you let them. You know, they'll push the button. 

[00:14:57] Curren$y: But it feels like trolling a lot of the time. Like, are they trying to see if I would do this, you know what I'm saying?

[00:15:03] Dan Runcie: Right. 

[00:15:03] Mousa Hamdan: I don't think they understand that he's not saying he's true to his lifestyle. He is actually true to it. He's not going to do anything that's going to bend. 

[00:15:11] Curren$y: It's not about money. We got enough pots on the stove. It's a six-burner stove. And we have pots with food and all of them are cooking, you know what I'm saying? So when somebody comes with the bullshit, it's like, all right, let's just go dip in this, right, quick. You know, like I I've done that with music, when I feel like, it is just sometimes I get a little down on myself just based on the climate of music, you know? And I'll fall back and maybe I'll just come up here and we'll just make a whole collection of clothes at that time, you know? And we were able to keep the lights on and shit through the apparel. If I said fuck it from here on end, you know what I'm saying? But it just so happens, like, I get my win and it is fun again, and I want to do it. You know, so we're lucky as shit.

[00:15:59] Dan Runcie: That makes sense, yeah. It's a good position to be in, right? You understand your brand, you understand what makes sense. You're only going to do certain types of deals. And I feel like this goes back to the way that you just go about this industry overall, right? You were early in terms of, let me put out my music and if people get it for free, they may get it for free, but let me go make the money on tour. Let me go make the money with these other business interests. 

[00:16:24] Curren$y: Yeah, because I mean, it's, shrinkage. It didn't matter how much music, like, what you do, how much you put behind the budget and what the labels do and all this shit. These people were just, our music was being stolen. This was during the time of, like, manufacturing jewel cases and all this shit that the company had to do, so that affected how much money they could give you. And then at the end of the day, everybody had the album a week before any damn, you know? So you can't feed your family like that. But what you can do, and what I did do is, and also when I did that, it was out of necessity. I didn't have no money to pay everybody for beats. But I could download Dr. Dre's instrumental for free. And as long as I don't sell this bitch, he's not coming for me, you know? I'm going to put it out for free. People going to love it. They're going to want me to come and wrap the motherfucker and they're going to pay however much it costs, you know, so that's how we did it. You know, that's just, like utilizing your natural resources. Like, what's growing in the land? Like, what's there? Just looked around and worked off what's growing out of the ground when you don't have the funds to do it. Like, you know, and you're creating business. Like, that's all we've ever done. And the more resources and the more materials we gain, you know, from gaining leverage or going up a level, then we start another joint, you know? Cause we got more to start with, 'Cause we, we did it with zero. So now it's insane. Like, we're just throwing darts at the board, like, fuck it, let's try and start a speedboat racing team tomorrow, you know what I'm saying? Like, fuck, whatever is whatever you want to do. And I've seen people do it. I’ve seen Master P do it because he had, like, with the bread to try it, you got to go for it. But what you had, but his circle is, was so large at the time with no limit. Like, first crack some ideas, not the best ideas, but you got love for everybody, so you going to roll the dice with everything they come with. You going to try, see, but what's working for us is we don't have that many people, like, around, you know what I'm saying? Like, as far as where the love is, it is right, it is in the room, so we not going to bounce. So if we try each other's ideas, one of 'em going to work 'cause it was just to, you got 19 people in here trying to, you know, tell you what to do and you want to keep everybody happy. You try, you going to end up trying to, like, start a golf cart company and, like, do spacewalks and sell reptiles and wild pets and then just doing everything that they ask you to do. And some of it's not going to work. 

[00:18:59] Dan Runcie: And I feel like with that, too, is just understanding your brand, understanding what's effective. And I know last year you had released an EP as an NFT, and I know this was the time when a lot of people were first discovering what an NFT is and things like that. What was that like? Because I know that was something that you didn't necessarily need to do to reach your fan base and do everything you wanted to do.

[00:19:21] Curren$y: It wasn't to increase the fan base. It was to make our listeners aware that we are in touch with what's going on, and we are going to make sure that you guys aren't left behind as far as having Jet Life representation because we know you wear this shit every day. We know this is all you're listening to. So if the whole world converted to the metaverse, and everybody just wore headsets and live like that, how will you survive if your life is Jet Life? We got to give you something in this shit too. Rather we understand it or not, we have to learn to understand it, to become a part, to take care of y'all out there because it's real, you know? No matter how imaginary it may seem, it's real, you know what I'm saying? It's intangible, but it's a real thing. So we had to be able to provide something for our people 'cause they were there, you know? You look out of touch and, like, not sharp, not able to move, you know, then people wash their hands of you. Other companies won't want to collaborate with us that much because it won't appear that we are in the know, where if you have a big company that's not doing anything in that world, they're like, oh shit, look at Jet Life, well, let's just fuck with them. Let's put some bridge in them because they can handle this for us, blah, blah, and that be our representation 'cause we're far too big to even try to learn and far too big and far too old to even try to learn that shit, you know what I'm saying? So once they saw we did, that makes us look, you know, mobile, you know what I'm saying? 

[00:20:51] Mousa Hamdan: We have to exist in the future. You know, at the end of the day, we got to do what we have to do to let everybody, like he said, we're in the know, you know, we're aware of what's going on, what's coming, what's worth getting involved with, what's not.

[00:21:05] Curren$y: And we going to ride with y'all because if it crashes, all us, then it did it off of us. You know what I'm saying? Fuck it. We going to roll too. 

[00:21:12] Mousa Hamdan: And even back a long time ago, I don't know if Curren$y even remember this, we did a deal back then with BitTorrent that we released a mixtape on BitTorrent, and it was 'cause the relationship we had with BitTorrent, they wanted to move away from everybody feeling that BitTorrent was a piracy site, and they wanted to like, well what if we give away something that we actually want shared? 

[00:21:38] Curren$y: Yeah. 

[00:21:38] Mousa Hamdan: And I remember we did that, I think we had like 156 million shares.

[00:21:45] Curren$y: Yeah. 

[00:21:45] Mousa Hamdan: I told the record label that we were in a deal with at the time and they was like, nah, I got to see that. They didn't believe it. Well, like, what? Don't worry about it. You don't have to believe it. And that's why we're not with y'all now, because y'all don't believe the future. Y'all believing what y'all were taught to believe.

[00:22:05] Curren$y: Yep. 

[00:22:05] Mousa Hamdan: Rather than having your own mind and realizing things change, the world changes. And you just got to be in the mix. You got to know what's going on. You got to get involved where you fit in. 

[00:22:15] Curren$y: You got to appear agile, man. 

[00:22:18] Dan Runcie: Stories like that, I feel, is what set y'all apart because if you think back to that time, no one wanted anything to do with BitTorrent or even LimeWire, BearShare, all these places where you could stream music and I get it. It was all the piracy, all the copyright. But at some point, someone asked to be able to say, all right, this is where folks are at. This is how they're getting our music. How could we get our music onto these places? Or how could we just think about it in a different way that isn't just no, don't do that?

[00:22:46] Curren$y: Watch it come all the way back to the beginning because we stayed true the entire time, that company that needed to wash his hands and kind of rebirth themselves, needed to stand next to something that was pure the entire time so that they could get some of our life, you feel me? Like, that was the way that shit worked. Their name was so sullied that it was like, okay, as far as music is concerned, people know Jet Life will not falter. They won't fold. They don't go for fucking the dangling carrot. So if we fuck with them, then they would know, like, well, Jet Life wouldn't fuck with us if we were really this pirate fucking factory. So it made everything, you know, legitimate. You know, we saw good in them, so it was cool, yeah. 

[00:23:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's interesting too, to make me think about the current thing that people are pushing back on, whether it's streaming farms, you know, people trying to drive up these streams and stuff like that. What's your take on that? Because I feel like, for you, something like that's almost irrelevant because you're not in this to, like, sell your music, so you don't care about charts or probably any of that stuff. 

[00:23:52] Curren$y: I can't blame them because it's not like streams, not like that shit pay you a lot of money, you know? I'm saying it takes a lot of streams to make, like, you know, substantial money. It takes a lot of people. A lot of artists don't even understand, you know what I'm saying? Like, the motherfucker call me like, bro, you did a million streams in the day. Like, so what do you think? I'm going to buy a yacht tonight, like, that was worth $12,000, bro, you know what I'm saying? That was worth 12 grand. I was like, don't trip. So I know they need those machines and shit to try and run those streams up. That could be check fraud. Like, they're trying to fucking, they're riding the clock, like, here man, we did 80 zillion billion streams in Apple music. Here's the paperwork. Fucking pay us, man. It could be that, it could be, we need to fucking this shit up so we could get a deal from some other people, maybe Pepsi Cola will reach out to us because they think we going to bring 'em all this attention and fuck them if we can't. The check's already here. You know, everybody's hustling though. It's not righteous, you know, but none of this shit is righteous. And that's kind of the ceiling that we set on ourselves by trying to, like, be legit, you know, it's not like that, you know what I'm saying? So I don't trip off the stream machines and people with the padded streams or, because I understand why they do it. We're blessed to not have to exist that way. And on the other hand, we do a decent amount of streaming because I put out a good amount of music, so I'm not going to do a million every month on one project like these other dudes, like, dude, some people only got to come out two times a year because that project will stream a million fucking streams a month every month all year. But what I will do is probably drop every month and still make it that way, you know what I'm saying? Or drop every two months, you know, and I'm still making that same bread. We just work harder, you know, because we're not doing a lot of the extra shit. 

[00:25:56] Mousa Hamdan: It don't hurt that he likes to record and what you're going to do? 

[00:25:59] Curren$y: Yeah, for sure. 

[00:26:00] Mousa Hamdan: You going to hold all the music? The music's going to sound old. He was writing about a '96 expedition, right? You got to put it out, bro. Next year, that thing's old. 

[00:26:11] Curren$y: Yep. 

[00:26:12] Mousa Hamdan: So at the end of the day, it don't hurt that he likes to record and the fans like to consume the music. They like the new drops. They don't feel like they're oversaturated with his music. They want more. 

[00:26:23] Curren$y: Yeah. The only time we hear that word is from, like, somebody outside. It's like when I'm doing, like, a press run and the people who had to Google me while we were on the elevator and we get up there to interview me, and that's like some shit they say like, so do you think you know about oversaturation? Like, fuck no, I don't think about oversaturation. I only think about my folks, like, you know what I'm saying? That's you. Y'all don't know. Y'all just tired of saying that Curren$y is coming out again with a project. I'm just tired of saying that. It shows up on y'all fucking thing. You have to mention it. You're just tired of saying this shit. 

[00:26:58] Dan Runcie: That's them trying to put you into a box. That's them trying to put you into what they know. But like a lot of people that serve their base, you know what they want and you are giving them exactly what they want. 

[00:27:08] Curren$y: Well, I mean, we interact with and we're around motherfuckers that come to this store all day, sometimes not even, to buy a shirt, like to be like, bro, when is this dropping? Like, you know, to play something for Instagram, when is this coming out? So we got our finger on the pulse of what's keeping us alive. Like, we check our posts often, you know.

[00:27:28] Dan Runcie: For sure. Mousa, I want to talk to you a bit about the business of Jet Life and everything you have going on. And I know we talked a little bit about how touring is a big place where you all are getting a lot of the money, but what does the breakdown look like from a high level? Like, how much of the money you all have coming in is from touring compared to the other businesses and then compared to streaming and the music itself? Like, from like a percentage? 

[00:27:53] Mousa Hamdan: Well, I think, of course, since pandemic, the touring has slowed down. We haven't done anything, but I don't think, for a while, I didn't think the people were ready for a tour, you know, because different cities still had different COVID restrictions and vaccination card restrictions, which would limit the fans of coming to the venues. So it wasn't a good look. I spoke to some other artist manager, who is like, yeah, he's on the road, but he's kind of depressed because shows are not selling out. He feels like he lost it. And it's not that, it's just that the environment wasn't for that. You were going out there too fast looking for the money. The good thing with us was, like he said earlier, that if one thing wasn't doing what we wanted, we had something else that was doing it. So, crazily, the apparel skyrocketed during the pandemic. 

[00:28:47] Curren$y: And I was the one who thought we needed, I thought we had to stop. 

[00:28:51] Mousa Hamdan: Yeah. 

[00:28:51] Curren$y: I was like, nobody is going to buy a fucking hoodie. 

[00:28:55] Mousa Hamdan: He was like, bro...

[00:28:56] Curren$y: There's no toilet paper. There's no fucking lights on in the store. Who the fuck is going to order a shorts, and fuck it, we're selling out of shit. 

[00:29:05] Mousa Hamdan: Shit was flying. 

[00:29:06] Curren$y: I was watching the news. There's just one, like, who are these people that are buying? Are they aware that this shit's even happening? Do they know they have nowhere to wear it to? And they're just posting the shit in the crib, in our brand new drop. Like, just fucking kicking it. The love was real, and they kept us alive, bro. I bought like fucking three or four cars while the shit was locked down. You couldn't even, we couldn't even go to dealerships, and I was buying cars because people were buying fucking sweatshirts. I'm sorry. I'm going to go back here. Y'all continue with business talk. 

[00:29:42] Mousa Hamdan: Definitely.

[00:29:43] Curren$y: You know I'm saying? He knows, he knows, he knows. 

[00:29:47] Mousa Hamdan: So I think when he drops some music, there's a jump in streams, you know what I'm saying? There's a bigger check coming, you know, apparel, same thing. We drop some, a new line or a new drop, it's bam. You know, everybody wants that, and depending on what it is. But, you know, we tend to drop a good little bit of apparel. So I think now apparel and the music kind of coexist, and both have their times, that one makes a little more than the other and vice versa. The other businesses that are fresh starts are creating a revenue. Of course, we don't expect the nightclub business to make the money that the record label makes, but it's an addition. So it is always like our thought of keep putting in the pot. Eventually, that pot will get full or, like he says in the songs, we're trying to fill up a safe. Once we fill that safe up, we just got to get another safe. We're not going to empty that safe. We're going to get another safe. Now we got to fill that one up, you know? So if, you know, at the end of the day, you know, it is Jet Life, we're going to spread our wings, we're going to see what we can put our hands on that will create a revenue and at the same time, sticking to our morals and beliefs of what we feel like Jet Life should stand for. A lot of people don't know, Jet Life, at the beginning, Jets was just an acronym. Just enjoy this shit. So that's what we're doing. We're enjoying it. Or like I tell people, Jet Life has just enjoy this life. So that's where we're at with it, steadily growing, steadily trying to get involved in everything that makes sense. You know, If it doesn't make sense, we leave it alone. So the revenue streams, like I said, it kind of goes back and forth. Apparel definitely is a world of its own now. Apparel is great. You know, we moved from, originally, like you said, with touring. That's when I realized that the apparel was so good because at touring, we were selling so much what I consider tour merch, you know, which is just the name of the show, the city's on the back, a picture of Curren$y on the shirt. You know, all the fans want it. They're like, man, they really love this shit. They're buying it. 

[00:31:56] Curren$y: That was just a tour shirt. 

[00:31:58] Mousa Hamdan: So then I was like, well, damn, I'd rather wear our own clothes when I want to go to the nightclub, when I go out to eat, or if I just want to hang around. I don't want to wear a tour shirt all the time, but I want to wear something. 

[00:32:12] Curren$y: And I didn't want to wear no shirt with my name on it.

[00:32:15] Mousa Hamdan: Right. He doesn’t want pictures of himself.

[00:32:17] Curren$y: I don't want no shirt with me on it, no shirt with my name on it 'cause like, who the fuck am I? You know what I'm saying? Who am I, you know, to even do that? 

[00:32:27] Dan Runcie: Right. 'Cause that's more like merch, right? And I didn't know that people use merch, but like, no, y'all have a clothing apparel.

[00:32:33] Mousa Hamdan: Tour merch. And then we changed it to apparel. Apparel, which you wear on a daily thing, every morning you wake up and you put apparel. You were sleeping in apparel. So we had to reach that. And then every couple of months we just think, what else can we make? What else? 'Cause you know, we started with just t-shirts, you know, then went to hoodies and long sleeves. And then we're like, we got to start getting bottoms and we got to get hats and you know, so now we're, you know, building into accessories and whatever else people may like. And at the same time as well, like I said, we test fitted on ourselves. If it's something that we don't want to wear, I'll always show him stuff like, look, these are some of the new designs. This is some of the stuff that you talked about with me that we created. Now it's on paper. Do you like it? If you like it, let's push the button. Let's go with it. If it's something you would wear. 'Cause at the end of the day, if he doesn't wear it, if I don't wear it, if the other artists on Jet Life don't wear it...

[00:33:33] Curren$y: It will sit in the warehouse. 

[00:33:35] Mousa Hamdan: Why would we expect a fan or a fellow lifer to wear it? They don't want to wear something that you don't even want to wear yourself. So if we don't want to create nothing that we don't like. You know, and that's just, I think our business model with everything we do. We don't want to do anything that we don't agree with. We don't want to do anything that goes against what we stand for. 

[00:33:58] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And the point again about the merch, too, I think Curren$y, you had this line in maybe it's an interview, I think you said, but it's like, no one's calling you Sean John merch, right? As you're telling Diddy like, oh yeah, I like your merch. 

[00:34:12] Curren$y: Right. You know what I'm saying? And just, we have to stand on that, you know? And I think we have for a long time, and it made people change the perception of it, you know. Before, like, just, the fact that we stand behind it like that, it made people buy it who maybe weren't even thinking about it because it made people want to look at it a little more to not like it, you know, like people came in to find like what was wrong. And then it's like, well, shit's just actually, you know, I'm going to buy the shirt, you know what I'm saying? Like, they were coming to point out why it was just merch and it wasn't, you know? 

[00:34:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. One other question for you, Mousa, about touring itself and just doing live shows. Because of how well the apparel's going right now and how the business overall may have changed since the pandemic, do you ever think that you'll go back to doing the same number of shows that you were doing before the pandemic because of how much success you have with everything else? Do you think it'll scale back a bit at all?

[00:35:10] Mousa Hamdan: In my mind, I've always lived thinking never forget where this started from and never forget what created this lane for you to get into. Without the touring, I never knew how much the merch sold. And I noticed that with a lot of artists, there's a lot of artists that don't sell merch, and they don't know the money that they're missing. So without the touring, without the shows that we do, like he said, we put a finger on the pulse of the fans. Well, we'll know who's coming to these shows, you know, and you can see when, all right, well, the shows are getting a little light, so what is it we're doing wrong? There's something that we're missing. Same thing with the apparel. When sales are a little low then I'm like, well, what are we doing that we used to do better? Or what are we missing? Are we getting laid back? Are we feeling like it just is what it is now? But being involved in it like that, I think, keeps us on with whatever else we're doing 'cause it's going to keep telling us, like, this is the pulse of the people. This is what you're doing. So I think we'll always do tours. Maybe we're not, you know, one time we did, I think it was 60 shows in 70 days, which was crazy. 

[00:36:23] Curren$y: 63. 

[00:36:24] Mousa Hamdan: Yeah, it was, yeah, crazy. Show every night, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And they're like, whoa, when is the break, bro? Like, when are we? So I don't think we'll do that. But we're going to stay out there, you know, as long as the people want to see, and he's got fresh music that he wants to perform. And you know, he's an artist, I think, that feeds off the energy, you know. And if the crowd doesn't have the energy, he's like, why am I here? Why am I performing for these people? They don't really want to see me because the energy is not there. So as long as we're feeling the energy, then I think we're there. Hopefully, I don't see it going down no time soon. You know, we're going to keep doing whatever it is that allows us what the universe puts for us to do, you know? And we're just going to be there. 

[00:37:08] Dan Runcie: How do you look at doing your own shows versus doing festivals? Do you have preferences? I feel like for an artist like you, your own shows where your people are going to be at, right?

[00:37:18] Curren$y: Yeah, bro. This is a whole other show. Don't do it. We love, we love, we love festival checks. If I had to pick, I like, you know, me at the House of Blues. I know exactly that the people who are in there, like, are there for what we going to do, you know what I'm saying? The festival, I've been blessed to be a person that you kind of, you can't get around me in the game, you know what I'm saying? So when you don't fuck with me, people speak out to you. You look stupid, you know what I'm saying? You look crazy. So people put me on shit, like just, no, we got to have him on this festival. We got to put him on this. We got to put him on this, you know what I'm saying? And my core people are there, but they're surrounded by people who are, like, waiting for like the next person to come out and like spit fire, you know what I'm saying? And walk on the crowd, pop, you know, like, I can't do it. I'll never do it, you know? So I'm like, I don't want to put my listeners through it because and they're in there like, shit, man. There's, like, a kid who kept, like, elbowing me, you know what I'm saying? Like, some of my listeners are, like, there's always somebody to put me to the side, like, yo, I'm 51, my nigga, like, this is the shit I'll listen to. So them, them dudes don't, they don't want that. Those ladies, like, who pull me to the side, like, boy, look, you know, I could be... I'm like, Yeah, you don't have time for, you know, for that. So I like to do just my thing. But the festival checks go directly to the sports car dealerships. Like, those are the checks that get you off the lot though. So, you know, you're being a fool not to do it, you know? And that's just business. 

[00:39:03] Mousa Hamdan: The checks are good, yes, but I think as well...

[00:39:08] Curren$y: He makes sense with this. I know what he coming with this, but I'm going to tell you, they're coming to business. He makes sense. 

[00:39:12] Mousa Hamdan: Sometimes, I honestly, in a lot of things that we do, I always tell him, I think he underestimates his reach, you know, and he's too humble to the point of, nah, bro, like, they're not really here for me and this, that, and the other. Now, I'll be honest with you, we had one festival show. I was a little worried. We got on stage. He wasn't on stage. He was backstage, so he didn't know nothing was going on. I literally walked to the DJ. I said, bro, this is probably our last festival 'cause it was like, there was literally 10 people in front the stage. I said, bro, if he gets out here and there's 10 people out here, he's liable to walk off stage, bro, so listen to me. The intro started and it looked like a rush. Like, I didn't know who. They had about 5,000 people or better rush to the stage. And I like, whoa, that's more like it. Then he came out, he didn't see the dead part. He saw that part. He was like, oh, my people are here. They're here. They showed up. They showed up. I'm like, you just don't know. They really did show up 'cause they wasn't here five minutes ago. 

[00:40:22] Curren$y: They just showed up.

[00:40:23] Mousa Hamdan: Bro, but then that's understanding the festivals. You got six stages. 

[00:40:28] Curren$y: Yeah. 

[00:40:29] Mousa Hamdan: They're trying to catch everybody.

[00:40:30] Curren$y: I was posting one time, there's a way to do it, you know what I'm saying? As long as you are vocal about what time you go on, your people will navigate through to get there for you, you know what I'm saying? But you also, you got the people who're waiting for somebody else 'cause I'm like, it's a gift and the curse, 'cause, like, I'm, like, the most known unknown. So it's, like they know they can't put me on at fucking one o'clock, you know what I'm saying? So then when you put me on at, like, eight, and then there's, like, whoever the fucking, whoever name was written this big on the flyer, this guy's coming after me, all right. The kids who are waiting for this guy are, like, have been pressed against the barricade for hours, like since 11:00 AM. When I come out there with my low-impact workout, like they're fucking dying, like looking at me and I'm like, I get it. Don't trip. I fuck with this guy's music too. He'll be out here in a minute, and I hope he does a backflip on top of you when he does, you know what I'm saying? Like, that shit kind of fuck with me because I'm delivering a real message. Like, every word I write, like, I mean it. So I really don't want to say it sweating to a person who's like this, like on the barricade, just like, bro, please stop. We get it. You like Chevys, you want us all to get rich? Fucking shut up. We want to fucking rap about drugs. Where's the next guy? So that shit kind of make you not want to do it. But then this guy, fucking, he's also the person who says this like, okay, you also woke some people up to the music you make. Then there's always, like, when I get done, the people who work the festival, the grounds, are, like, bro, I never heard this shit, but this was real music. Like, I couldn't understand nobody else's words, you know what I'm saying? This is fucking good. So I'm like, well, that's cool. I do leave out there with more listeners than I did, you know what I'm saying? It might be 12, it might be 150. He going to count every dollar for each one via stream, so I understand where he comes from with that. But I always like, I say it to myself sometimes, and sometimes when it gets too heavy to me, I say to the people around me, I'm like, bro, I'm actually the only one who fucking have to go and do that shit. Like, I get it. We all here, we all fucking supporting, but they're not looking at you, like, get the fuck out. And you got to do this shit for 45 minutes, you know what I'm saying? Sure. There's some people who are enjoying it, but the motherfucker who's right in front of you is dying, and you have to continue to have a good time. Like, that shit is like being a fucking Disney World animatronic or, being like a Chuck E. Cheese thing. Like, that's a rough time for me for sure. But it works, you know? That's anybody's job.

[00:43:27] Dan Runcie: It's a balance, right?

[00:43:28] Curren$y: You know, a hundred percent love any fucking gig that you have, any job you have, bro. I'm sure everybody at NBA, that was their dream, to go to the NBA. Some of those days sucked though for those dudes, you know what I'm saying? So it ain't always going to be the shit. The situation overall is one that I wouldn't trade for the world. 

[00:43:48] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And you mentioned too that the money that you're getting from the festivals is going to the sports car dealership. Can we talk a little bit about that? How's that business set up and how's that been going? 

[00:44:01] Curren$y: Oh, well, me and Mousa, we've always been kind of into, like, bringing cars back to life, restoring things, and shit. But I've been holding on 'em. But as of late, we're building a stable of vehicles to kind of release onto the public, but it'll be like a collection, the same way we come out with clothes. There'll be like six vehicles put up for sale at one time that we cultivate and put together. We putting together a BMW, a few vintage sports car that we putting together. We're going to roll 'em all out at one time, you know what I'm saying? So I expect them all to be gone, like, within the week. I expect it to be like shoes. Like, I expect motherfuckers to try it and everybody will blow. You know, everybody try their hands at the shit we do. So another motherfucker with a bigger audience and shit will try to do the same thing, but you know, who cooked that shit up first. 

[00:44:52] Mousa Hamdan: Okay. They know, They know where they got the idea from.

[00:44:56] Curren$y: Yeah, they know, too, so it don't matter. 

[00:44:59] Dan Runcie: Speaking of cars and trendssetting, I know you got a partnership with NASCAR as well, and I feel like there's another thing, too, where not a lot of hip hop artists are doing those deals, but we are just seeing the way things are trended now. Everyone will be following to that. And you got the Jet Life cup series. All right, let's talk about it. 

[00:45:16] Curren$y: Yeah, man. Yeah, man. Well, yeah. People of any other nationality other than the original rebel down home boys were not involved in NASCAR and they fucking, they had it that way. They built it that way, executive-wise, it's not like that anymore. Now, you know, doors have been broken down, kicked in, and open-minded. People are now there, and it's made it more accessible for fans. I was shocked when I went that I saw like groups of different people, I don't want to just say black people, just different people in general because the other side of it, the way it was, they weren't picking what nationality or what people they didn't want, they didn't want nothing else, but what the fuck they had, you know? So it's way different now in all aspects. It's not just minorities selling nachos. They driving the cars. They are the ones like turning the wrenches and making sure shit is right. They got headsets on, they out there doing the real thing. And I brought one of my younger homies with me, it blew him away. He's at school for engineering, and he was just, he was nervous for us to even be out there. I made a few small jokes to my friends when we first got there based on the appearance and how it looked. But it really wasn't like that once you got down into the meeting. And I read on social media, like I read a few comments. There were some people who were not excited about our presence. There's some people who weren't into the collaboration. I saw one thing under a video that I was so sad 'cause I was like, I hope my mom don't see it. Because the motherfucker was like, what is he coming to steal? And I was like, damn, if my mama sees that, she'll probably cry, you know what I'm saying? Like, it'll take a minute for me to get her over that shit. But what are you going to do? You know what I'm saying? This shit, you can't blame the behavior 'cause it was taught a long time ago. Like, they didn't pop out like that. That's what that motherfucker told him to do, you know what I'm saying? And what we doing is playing the hand and telling the people who are receptive and the new people, the younger generation, like, it could go this way instead, you know what I'm saying? Like, we were up in all the suites and eating NASCAR food, you know, and actually, I'm going to say this, I was a little bummed with the NASCAR because we couldn't get a Coca-Cola badge on our jersey. We wanted to have it because the race that day was actually Coke Zero, Coke Zero 400, all right. So, when they originally had the design meeting for the package, they included Coca-Cola logo because that was the race, you know, that's when it was coming up. And I think like they did the same thing, like, whoever is involved with the collaborations just did a little brief overview of who I was or what I was about, and they're like, oh, no. So like, that kind of fucked me up. 

[00:48:17] Mousa Hamdan: They'll be back though. They'll be back. 

[00:48:19] Curren$y: Yeah. But you know, like, I was like, well this still, you know, shit is still hard, you know? But with time, with time, yeah. And I don't know. And then, and I didn't like the you got gang with you. I heard over there, I'm sorry. 

[00:48:32] Mousa Hamdan: Oh, yeah.

[00:48:32] Dan Runcie: That's from fans or was that from NASCAR? 

[00:48:35] Curren$y: No, no.

[00:48:35] Mousa Hamdan: Coke exec. 

[00:48:36] Curren$y: Just one of the brass at Coca-Cola. And I drank a lot of Coca-Cola, so I really do need to stop, but for health and maybe for business, because motherfucker was like, to the representative from NASCAR who was showing us to where we were going to go to sit down, like, in the suite. He's like, oh, you got a gang with you. And I was just like, damn, like. I'm sure maybe I'm looking at it with a microscope, you know. 

[00:49:01] Dan Runcie: But still though, you can't say that, yeah. 

[00:49:04] Curren$y: I really don't know, I just don't know. I just was on the fence. I thought about it a lot. I think about it. 

[00:49:09] Dan Runcie: But like, they wouldn't say that if, like, Jason Aldean walked up in there with a group of folks.

[00:49:13] Curren$y: You got a lot of people with you, you know I'm saying? It wasn't like he said the gang's all here. If he said the gang's all here, that would not have hit me like that. People say that the gang's all here, that doesn't mean that you got a street gang here. 

[00:49:29] Mousa Hamdan: Right.

[00:49:29] Curren$y: But, whoa, you got a gang with you. 

[00:49:33] Mousa Hamdan: He could have said, Hey fellas and just kept it moving.

[00:49:36] Curren$y: Yeah. 

[00:49:36] Mousa Hamdan: How y'all doing guys? 

[00:49:38] Curren$y: Yeah. 

[00:49:38] Mousa Hamdan: And you didn't have to make conversation with us. You were just passing.

[00:49:41] Curren$y: It felt like it was a Chappelle show skit because it could have been where keeping the real goes wrong. Because I was like, half step, like, trying to see if I could make eye contact with one of my friends who felt like maybe that was wrong and I had support in, like, hey man, like, what? But it could have went way south. Like, there could be no more NASCAR 'cause shit if we could, would've did that. You know, we just might not have the Coca-Cola on the next one. Or maybe we will, maybe they're like, oh, shit, man. We didn't mean that. I thought I did say that gang's all here. Let's put a badge on the fucking next jacket, you know, it might work that way. And that's business and that's why we're here talking, you know? And and that's why it it pays to be true to yourself within your business. And if your circle is small, it's easier for you to be honest and not worry about if something sounds stupid or anything because, like, we have a yin and a yang, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's what makes it work. 

[00:50:37] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think that's a good note to close things out. And I want to get your thoughts on this question because as you started with the beginning, y'all have been together for a while, even in this conversation, we can see that chemistry between the two of you, that yin and the yang, you understand each other. What do you think is the secret for having the artist and manager that just stay with each other? 'Cause there's so many times that, either other artists or other managers that have been on this show and they're like, oh, yeah, you know, so and so fired me. 

[00:51:04] Curren$y: Somebody lied in the beginning.

[00:51:07] Mousa Hamdan: Right. 

[00:51:08] Curren$y: Just like, who fucks up anything. You know, like, just somebody lied in the beginning. The artist was signed to nine different managers. Everybody loaned him $1,500 to help him do something. He's just signing with whoever's going to fucking give him a fucking chain or watch, and he's not being honest. Or there's a fucking, like, a discrepancy on this stack of paperwork or something, and this guy's outsmarting the artist and fucking going to rob and blind, you know what I'm saying? Like, if that happens in the beginning, the intentions are bad in the beginning, then you'll see where it looked good and then it fall into pieces because you find out, you know what I'm saying? Like, fucking, when we read for fucking N.W.A, which is one thing I didn't turn down, I was down to do that. He's coming to me with movie shit. Do you want to read this? Do you want to do this? No, no, no, no. They're like, do you want to be Easy-E? And I was like, no. At first I was like, no, like, they should call his son, you know what I'm saying? But then I end up reading for it, and then they end up getting a guy from New Orleans anyhow. So that was cool. I'm like, damn, I probably could have got that shit. But nonetheless, the part that we were reading, it was after Easy-E's wife went through the paperwork that he did with Jerry Heller and she brought, like, so much shit, attention to him. And when E and Jerry had this talk, it made Jerry cry because he was leaving even though he did so much wrong shit. But in his heart of hearts, he probably didn't think it was wrong 'cause he took dude from nothing. But it was still bad and he couldn't believe how quick Eric was ready to shut the shit down. But it's because he was wrong. Like, once that, there's nothing you could do after that. Once it get like that, it shut down. That shit is heartbreaking. And we never, like, we have not hurt each other like in that aspect, you know what I'm saying? Like, when I came to him, I was like, look, I don't, you know what I'm saying, I ain't signed nothing yet, but this is what's going on. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. That's that, you know. I don't know, I'm going to go talk ahead, I'm going to do this and get this and then not say this. You know, he don't fucking pop up and see I'm doing the show in Colorado and, you know what I'm saying, I didn't say anything. I just went, flew out and oh no, I made just 30 grand right quick, you know. That there's just, it's all on the up, bro. So with that, you know, you stay friends, we friends first all. 

[00:53:28] Mousa Hamdan: That's I think the biggest thing. 

[00:53:29] Curren$y: Yeah. If he wasn't in my homie, then we wouldn't do business. 

[00:53:31] Mousa Hamdan: We started as friends, and then we continued to be friends in this. 

[00:53:36] Curren$y: Yeah. All the way through.

[00:53:38] Mousa Hamdan: We're business partners, but we never was just business partners. We was always friends to begin with. 

[00:53:44] Curren$y: Right. So that make you not be able to do no fucked up business. 

[00:53:48] Mousa Hamdan: And then we trust each other. 

[00:53:49] Curren$y: You know what I'm saying? You can't do that to your friend.

[00:53:52] Mousa Hamdan: Trust is big, you know. I think he trusts my decisions, I trust his decisions. And then we talk about things, like he said, we were going to always converse about whatever decisions we want make. If there's ever a thought, I think, you know, this may be wrong or whatever, I'm going to consult with him as if he was my manager, you know what I'm saying? So we're going to talk and the trust issue, I always hear that, you know, how, why y'all been together so long? I'm like, if you build a business, who builds a business to separate, right? We build a business together 

[00:54:24] Curren$y: Who are these people that you're with? Who's in your car? Who the fuck are you riding with in the car? Like, who? That's why. That's why I said, like, having 19 and 30 motherfuckers. Like, now there might be 30 people in this building at a time, and they all could have a Jet Life chain, they all be a part of what's going on. But at the end of the day, you know what I'm saying? When it'll come down, it'll come down. Like, we got to sit down and fucking, you know what I'm saying, and put it together, you know. Everybody respect that because when we come out the room, we come out the with the right answer. I might have the wrong answer, but this ain't here. When we come out the room, we present the right answer. 

[00:55:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, a hundred percent right. And I feel like y'all got the right mentality. It speaks to everything that you've accomplished up to this date and excited to continue to see where it goes, right? Like you said, this is a balloon, and we want to keep seeing how this balloon continues to grow slowly. So, I mean, congrats to y'all on everything that've done.

[00:55:17] Curren$y: Got new music dropping Friday, so if this don't get to them this week, you, bro, you know for sure, Friday, I got music dropping.

[00:55:26] Dan Runcie: Okay. Yeah. I was going to ask you what else you got coming up and if people want to follow you, where's the best place for them to check in with you, both of you.

[00:55:32] Curren$y: Car is outside, but I don't suggest you follow me. @spitta_andretti, Instagram. S P I T T A underscore A N D R E T T I. Twitter, well, I have a lot of fun at Twitter. Instagram has gotten really weird. It's really, like, tough to figure that out. It's nuts. Twitter is staying true. Curren$y with an S because they don't recognize a dollar sign. So C U R R E N S Y underscore Spitta, S P I T T A. And you know what? They had a fake Curren$y when I first got to Twitter. That's why I had to make that name like that, @CurrensySpitta, because there was already somebody who was saying he was me and he had like pictures and everything. That's fucked up, yeah, but nah. 

[00:56:17] Dan Runcie: And what about you Mousa? 

[00:56:19] Mousa Hamdan: I'm on, pretty much all the handles are the same, @mousa504, M O U S A 5 0 4, that's going to be on whatever, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, anything, you know. I stick to that same handle. 

[00:56:33] Curren$y: Oh, we also got the partnership with Sovereign Brands, Villon France, this is our cognac that we are standing behind. That's just one more thing on the number. I forgot. It doesn't help your memory. It tastes good. It doesn't help your memory. I forgot to mention that we were doing it.

[00:56:49] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. We could do a whole follow up episode on all of that. All of these deals. Role you've turned down, too, but we'll have to check it the next time. Appreciate you both, man. Thank you. 

[00:56:58] Mousa Hamdan: Appreciate you. 

[00:56:59] Curren$y: Cheers, bro.

[00:57:00] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.


]]> 3455 no Rap Capital: The Rise & Reign Of Atlanta’s Hip-Hop Empire https://www.trapital.com/podcast The dominance of Atlanta’s hip-hop scene has been discussed often, but not in the way Joe Coscarelli covered it in his new book, Rap Capital. Joe, a New York Times music reporter since 2015, spent four years and interviewed over 100 sources to get the contemporary story about Atlanta’s culture-defining music scene. Characters are what move the story forward in Joe’s book, not discography, record sales, or cultural relevance. Lil Baby is featured prominently, as is his mom. Joe’s relationship with the hit rapper dates back to 2017 when Lil Baby was still a mixtape artist. Another recurring character is Quality Control Music’s Kevin “Coach K” Lee, who has deep-rooted ties with the city’s most well-known artists across eras. Joe came onto the show to take us through the book’s journey — both for him to write it and the characters themselves. Here’s what we covered: [2:40] How the book came together and finally clicked [6:42] Role of Quality Control’s Coach K in Atlanta story [10:11] Lasting effects of pandemic on music industry [12:38] Which era of Atlanta hip-hop to focus on?  [14:09] How streaming helped launch Atlanta rap into the mainstream [16:10] Building trust with his sources despite racial differences [18:10] Did Joe receive any pushback while reporting? [20:19] Evolution key to Atlanta rap’s longevity  [25:05] Adapting Rap Capital into a movie [29:45] The crumbling of mainstream culture   Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Joe Coscarelli, @joecoscarelli     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Joe Coscarelli:  I wanted to tell the story through characters, through people, not just, you know, you can run down the discography of all the amazing Atlanta musicians, right? You can go through the label history, read the reviews. But I always want to sort of pull back like, who's behind these people? Who's behind that person? So that's why I think, you know, mothers were huge, fathers, you know, friends, people who are around these artists growing up, I wanted them to be human characters, and I wanted the side characters to be as big of a part as the famous people 'cause I think they're as crucial to the equation.  [00:00:30] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.   [00:00:58] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Joe Coscarelli. He's the author of Rap Capital: An Atlanta Story, and he's a culture reporter at The New York Times. And this book that he wrote, Rap Capital, I cannot recommend it enough. If you listen to this podcast, if you read the newsletter, if you watch any of the clips from our conversations or any of the posts on social media, this book is made for you. It's a street-level epic about the most consequential music culture today, Atlanta Rap. Joe put so much thought and care into how the book came together and tying everything from the Atlanta murders that happened decades ago and how that shaped the rap culture and the broader culture for black folks in Atlanta that we see today, and how that led to someone like Lil Baby, how that led to someone like Coach K having such an influence over hip hop music and the culture for decades now. This book was a great opportunity as well to have a trip down memory lane. A lot of us understand how influential Atlanta's been, but it was great to have it be told from a unique way. We also talked about broader trends happening in the streaming era right now in music, what a movie or film or TV show adaptation could look like for Rap Capital, and more. Here's our conversation. Hope you enjoy it. All right. Today we had Joe Coscarelli, the author of Rap Capital: An Atlanta story and read the book, really enjoyed it, and I got to ask because I was going through the synopsis and you said this was four years in the making, and I got to imagine with a book like this, there was some point when things started to click in that four-year process. When did you feel like things were coming together for you?  [00:02:40] Joe Coscarelli: So I knew that there was a book in this stuff because I had done a handful of stories through my day job at The New York Times about Atlanta. I started this beat in late 2014. So., You know, my first couple years on the job, streaming was really taking over and specifically rap music and streaming. So I just found myself over and over again talking to the same group of people, right? I did a Migos Story, did a QC story that featured Lil Baby, one of his first interviews. I wrote about Drew Findling who's a lawyer in the book that's all over the news these days in various capacities. So I knew from those stories that there was something here. But I didn't know what it was going to be. I knew I wanted to not just tell a history, but follow characters in real-time as they tried to make it. That's something I always want to do in my work. You know, so my favorite art ever is like Hoop Dreams or a music documentary like Dig!, which follows two bands across a long period of time. One of them makes it, one of them doesn't make it. That's always what I want to bring to my reporting is this idea of a journey, right? And it doesn't even matter what the destination is, but following, specifically artists and musicians as they're trying to make something out of their lives, that to me, is just a timeless tale, right, of ambition and dreams, and so I knew I had a handful of characters that I wanted to go on this trip with, but I didn't really know how it tied into the broader story of Atlanta until a real marathon brunch interview with Lil Baby's mother, Lashawn. He was, you know, he and I had a rapport at that point. I'd interviewed him a few times. I did talk to a lot of people around him, and he was kind enough to set me up directly with his mom. And, you know, we sat down at a brunch place outside of Atlanta. And, you know, she said, I asked him, I asked Dominique, her son, we're like, what do I tell him? And he told her tell him everything. And she really did, her whole life story became part of the book, especially the foundation of the book, in the first part. And she had such an incredible life on her own. You know, I hope she writes a memoir someday. But when I learned really that she had been friends in school with an early victim of the Atlanta child murders, which were happening on the west side of Atlanta in the late seventies, early eighties, that she had a firsthand relationship to that historical event that I feel like really left its mark on the city. And she was open. She said it sort of affected the kind of mother that she became, and I think ultimately helped set Dominique, Lil Baby, on his path. And all of that could be traced to, like, something she went through as a kid that also spoke more broadly to Atlanta and the way it has developed socially, politically, culturally, especially Black Atlanta over the last 40, 50 years. So that was a real breakthrough moment for me, and I knew that I could start with her story, which in many ways was also the story of Atlanta in the last, you know, half a century.  [00:05:30] Dan Runcie: And in reading that first piece, too, I could see how much care and thought was put into it from your perspective of going through what happened with those murders and then how that traces directly to someone like Lil Baby because it's hard to tell the story of Atlanta hip hop without doing all of that. And that's something that I think is often missing with so much of the discussion about Atlanta's run, which is why I feel like your book does stand as its own and is able to have a unique voice and perspective on this. [00:05:58] Joe Coscarelli: I appreciate that. Yeah, I wanted to tell the story through characters, right, through people, not just, you know, you can run down the discography of all the amazing Atlanta musicians, right? You can go through the label history, read the reviews. But I always want to sort of pull back like, who's behind these people? Who's behind that person, you know? So that's why I think, you know, mothers were huge, fathers, you know, friends, people who are around these artists growing up, I wanted them to be human characters, and I wanted the side characters to be as big of a part as the famous people 'cause I think they're as crucial to the equation.  [00:06:31] Dan Runcie: And of course, Lil Baby is one of the central characters. Another one is Coach K, who's one of the folks leading up Quality Control Music. Why was it important for him to be a central character in this too?  [00:06:42] Joe Coscarelli: So Coach K is amazing because you can tell basically the last 30 years of rap music only through his career, right? When I said I wanted to be able to trace characters back through the years to artists and eras, like, Coach has seen it all, right? This is a man who was passing out Church fans to promote Pastor Troy and the congregation in the mid-nineties. Then he goes from that to representing all these producers who were, you know, crucial to founding the trap sound, someone like Drama Boy. And then he's working with Young Jeezy, right, as the Snowman mythology takes over and, you know, Def Jam South and the explosion of trap music on a national scale. Coach is behind that, right? You know, there's a moment I talk about in the book where they put the commercial on the radio right, in Atlanta, when the Jeezy's mixtapes, Trap or Die are coming out, right, and it's All Traps Closed today, like National Holiday, you know, like these are the things that Coach was cooking up behind the scenes. Then he works with Gucci Mane, right, who was blood rivals with Jeezy. And then that brings you up to the present day, and in 2013, he and P, his partner Pierre Thomas, they founded Quality Control, and then they have Migos, right, and then they have a Lil Yachty, and then they have Lil Baby. And through Coach K, you could talk about every single one of those careers and so many more that he was on the periphery of, even if he wasn't the main executive or manager involved. So I just think, you know, there's nobody more crucial to that ecosystem at this moment and through the last couple of decades than Kevin Lee, Coach K.  [00:08:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think one of the things that stands out about their run, too, is that it wasn't just one artist and they faded and rose with that artist. And I think that's what we've seen a lot in the streaming era, frankly, from a lot of the record labels that have rose up. They had the runs, and even when one star started to fade from a group that was the hottest group in the moment, they had others that came through, and you're seeing that infrastructure. I feel like that's one thing that sets them apart from a lot of the others at this moment.  [00:08:42] Joe Coscarelli: Totally. For them, it's all about artist development, right? Like, I remember being around them in the office, you know, in late 2017 and they were talking about whether they should have gone after Bhad Bhabie, you know, the Cash Me Outside girl. And like they would see little things pop up and think like, oh, should we get in on that viral moment? And then they would be like, No, that's not what we do. We build artists, we build careers, we build brands. And something that's so special about Quality Control and why they were able to, you know, be the backbone of this book is because they are invested in that sort of old school Motown-esque record business thing of I'm going to pluck someone who might not even think they're a musician, and we're going to believe in them, and we're going to back them, and we're going to build it from the ground up, right, and we're going to build it Atlanta first. Whereas so much in the viral marketing, streaming world of today is going top-down, right? It's a TikTok hit, then it's a major label deal, and this person's probably never even played a show before. They're still very invested in the grassroots bottom-up approach, and I think that's worked for them so many times now that the playbook is, you know, you can't deny it. [00:09:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think that also that goes with something that I've seen you talk about even outside of the book as well, just some of the challenges that a lot of the artists and labels have right now in terms of now that the pandemic has, at least in this stage that we're in right now, there's still some lasting effects in terms of how that's shaping the charts, how that's shaping how music's released. What have you been seeing there from that perspective?  [00:10:11] Joe Coscarelli: I mean, you know, a lot of people have been writing this year, yourself included, about the sort of stagnancy of the charts, how, you know, there aren't a lot of new breakout hits, especially in rap music, which had been so dominant for the last decade, essentially, as things started to move online and towards streaming. And I think you're right that a lot of that is pandemic hangover, right? Like, people were not outside like they used to be. Artists were not sort of feeling that energy, that creative energy. They were creating often, like, in a little bubble. I'm sure you get projects like a Beyoncé's RENAISSANCE that comes out of that pandemic moment and maybe speaks to some people's hopes and dreams for what the next few years will be, a little freer. But you don't have any chance for that sort of grassroots development, right? So we saw a lot of things come off of TikTok, but as I was getting at, like, those people, they haven't had the opportunity to touch their fans, right, to speak to the sort of ground swell of support. So you get a lot of things that feel fleeting and then you have something massive, right? Bad Bunny or like Morgan Wallen that's just like lodged up there at the top of the charts 'cause I think those guys had a fully formed thing going into the pandemic and were able to ride it through. You know, when you think about a lot of rap, especially regionally, that's bubbling now, there's a lot of drill, right? Like, you think of the stuff coming out of Brooklyn and the Bronx and that sound traveling all over the country. And I think, you know, since Pop Smoke, we haven't really had a sort of mainstream emissary for that sound. And it is such a local, such a hyper-local, such an underground phenomenon that you haven't really had someone translate it for the mainstream, you know, maybe that's going to be Ice Spice, maybe that's going to be Fivio Foreign, and like, you know, maybe it's going to be someone younger. But I think we're still waiting, right, for what that next wave, especially in rap, is going to be. You see the sort of sun may be setting on the trap era that's described in the book in the rise of drill as the default of what a rap song sounds like, but again, that hasn't really crossed over quite yet.  [00:12:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's been fascinating just to see how the streaming era has shaped things, specifically with how much you focused on it in the book. And with a topic like Atlanta hip hop, there are likely so many sectors that you could have dove in on, and of course, Lil Baby being a central figure did lend itself to the streaming era. But how did you decide which era to focus on? Because there's so many time spans that you probably could have done and equally deep dive on. [00:12:38] Joe Coscarelli: I always knew I wanted to tell a contemporary story, right? Like, I'm more of a reporter than I am a historian. So I'm not a musicologist, I'm not a music critic. You know, I've never really written criticism in terms of album reviews or show reviews, things like that. So I knew I wanted to be able to witness as much as I could firsthand and write about that because that's what I love to do in my work, getting back to this idea of, you know, being a fly on the wall for someone's journey, for someone's rise, for someone's fall even. So it was always going to be contemporary, right? And I feel like you have to tell a little bit of the history, right? You have to talk about Freaknik, you have to talk about OutKast, and the Dungeon Family, and LaFace Records, and So So Def to be able to get to this moment. But I think for me, like, I'm not someone who writes about music nostalgically. Sure, I love the stuff I grew up on, but I'd rather look forwards than backwards. And I think, character-wise, I just want to stay with the cutting edge, right? I want to see what's next. I want to see who's changing things, who's, you know, who's moving things forward. And that's just what I seek out in my life and in my job. So I think it was always going to be as contemporary as possible.  [00:13:46] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. I think that streaming also allowed us to see more growth from the areas that I think, in a lot of ways, were a bit held back from gatekeepers controlling everything. And I think Atlanta's a perfect example of that, even though they had the massive rise, you know, nineties, early 2000s, it went to another level this past decade.  [00:14:09] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah. And I think you know that sort of in-between time, right, when you think about post-Napster and file sharing, post-CD crash in the early 2000s. But pre-streaming, like, a lot of what became the go-to playbook for streaming was happening in the underground mixtape scene, especially in Atlanta and in the South. And you think of things like DatPiff or you know, sites like that where free mix tapes were coming out and it was all about quantity, right, in a way that really set these artists for the streaming era, right? You think of Lil Wayne's mixtape run, Gucci's mixtape run, and then Future's mixtape run. It was just about music, music, music, music. And so Migos sort of got in at the tail end of that and they released, you know, whatever it is, 5, 7, 10 mixtapes before they put out a proper debut album. And then when they finally hit with something like Culture, their second proper full length, the world had finally caught up to them and the rest of the Atlanta artists. And yet there's this whole group in between that gets left behind, right? Like, I'd love to read a book about Travis Porter and Rich Kidz and you know, these Atlanta rappers who are really, like, laying the groundwork for a lot of this, even like Rocko or you know, early career Future. Like these guys, I think if they would've come out once Spotify was as big as it is now, they would've been huge national and international stars. And instead, they sort of get caught in this in-between zone. So, you know, I think, I love to see when art lines up with the technology of the moment, and I think these Atlanta rappers were in the perfect place at the perfect time to take advantage of that explosion.  [00:15:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I agree. And then even reading it too, and thinking about this conversation we're having, so much of you framing this as you're a reporter, you're capturing what's happening contemporary, and given the insights and the things that people are sharing with you, the amount of trust that you were needed to develop with them, and we talked a lot about the aspect of race and how that plays in. How did you navigate that yourself as a white man and trying to tell this black story and making sure that you're capturing it in the best way possible?  [00:16:10] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah. You know, obviously, I thought about this a lot in the reporting, in the conception of the book, and certainly in the writing and the editing. I think the job of any journalist, right, is to be like a respectful, humble, open-minded guest in other people's worlds, right, and to be well aware of what you know and what you don't know. Like, that goes for when I'm interviewing a female artist, a trans songwriter, reggaeton star. I think, like, to navigate spaces where you're not an insider, like, it's best to come prepared and engaged and curious. Like, I did my research, I knew what I was talking about to the extent that I could, but I also was eager to, like, defer to people who are the experts, right? I made sure that everyone from artists to managers, family members, like, they knew that I wanted to take whatever platform I had with the book and with my work at The New York Times, and sort of take their work seriously to shine a light on it, and recognize it as important as it is, right, this cultural product that has this immense influence and impact. So I wanted to really preserve these moments to the best of my ability for the history books. And I think that my subjects got that right away. You know, I don't think it took a lot of time for them to spend with me to see that I was really dedicated in that mission, that I was going to be respectful of their time and space, interested in the work that they were doing and the lives they were living. And then, like, your credibility travels, right? One person can vouch for you with another, you know, with a collaborator, with a family member. And I just wanted to just defer to them and their experiences. And I think I took that with me in the writing of the book. You know, of course, there's analysis, there's observation, but I really wanted people to speak for themselves. The book is very quote-heavy. I really wanted to capture people as they are, do an accurate portrayal of what it is they've been through. Hopefully, I think the quality speaks for itself. But I wanted to, you know, give these people whatever, spotlight, whatever platform I can offer. And then tell the truest version of how they relate it to me.  [00:18:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's the best and the most fair way to do it. Along the way though, did you receive any pushback or any type of challenge as you were doing this? [00:18:10] Joe Coscarelli: There's very little. I think I'm fortunate enough to, you know, have an institution like The New York Times behind me. I think, you know, people take that name seriously. It opens a lot of doors, whether or not I was a good reporter. And I think when you can open the door and then when you show up, and you're thorough, and you're accurate, you know, I'd written a lot about these people before the book, I think that the trust just grows and grows. And I was also finding people really at the beginning, right, of their careers in a lot of cases, like Lil Baby, like, you know, he may not be able to spell my last name, but he knows that I was that guy with him listening to his mixtape tracks as they were deciding what was going to be on, you know, his second, his third mixtape. And he's seen me for years along the way, supporting that journey, you know, engaging with the work, like I said. And, you know, meeting people at the beginnings of things, they remember, right, who was there with them and who was supportive and who got it. And I think that that went a long way for me with my subjects. I think the other thing is like, you know, in the music industry, whether it's rap, you know, southern rap, regional street rap, like, there's always a white guy around, you know. I talk about this in the book, whether it's a dj, a producer, a manager, you know, this is a trope, this is a tradition. And I think, you know, sometimes it goes well, sometimes it goes poorly. But I try to always be above board and respectful in my dealings. But I think, you know, when you're riding around in Atlanta, with a rapper and you look like I do, you know, someone's just going to assume that I'm either from the label or I'm from The FADER, you know, something like that. [00:19:41] Dan Runcie: Exactly. Exactly. But no, I think that, given this, as you mentioned, yeah, there's plenty of precedent for people having done this before. And yeah, I think the care that you bring into it with the book is clearly shown. And thinking about that, as you mentioned, just you driving around Atlanta, getting a feel for the vibe of the city and everything else, spending so much time there, how do you feel about the run that Atlanta's currently having and how this will continue? Because I think that like anything, people are always thinking of what is the next thing. How long does this last? We, of course, saw the east and west coast rise and fall. What do you feel, like, the next decade or so it looks like for Atlanta in hip hop?  [00:20:19] Joe Coscarelli: I mean, the thing that's been so amazing about Atlanta, the reason it can be the subject of a book like this is because every time you would think it was over, they would just come up with a new thing, right? So like, you know, you think back to OutKast, you think back to So So Def, you know, you have the run of Ludacris, who becomes, you know, this crazy mainstream success story, you have Gucci, and Jeezy, and the rise of trap, and T.I., you know, becomes this huge crossover star. And then you think that that's over. And then you have crunk, and you have Lil Jon, and you think that's over. And then here's comes Waka Flocka Flame coming up from under Gucci, you know. Even someone like Gucci, he's helped birth three, four micro-generations of Atlanta rappers. And, you know, someone like Young Thug comes out and you're like, oh, like, this is too eccentric. This is never going to happen, right? Like, this is only for the real heads, only for people listening underground, and then all of a sudden he's on SNL, right? And he's in Vogue. And just over and over again, you have these guys sort of breakthrough with something that seems like it's too outre. It's too avant-garde. You know, even Migos and their sort of like punk repetition, you know, people heard Bando and said like, oh, this is annoying. Like, this is going nowhere, and then all of a sudden the whole radio sounds like that. So there's a part of me that does feel like, you know, this book is sort of capturing a contained era, right? The first 7, 8, 9, 10 years of streaming and the intensity and the tragedy of the YSL indictment. Like, maybe that's a hard stop to this era. But I think you can never count Atlanta out, right? So like, you might not know exactly what's coming next, but there's always more kids like this, like coming up with something new, taking what came before them, putting like a twist on it, and then all of a sudden it's on the radio, right? So like, even me, like, I see like a real post-Playboy Cardi, you know, sort of experimental streak in a lot of these rappers. I think there's some drill influence coming into Atlanta. And I don't think the next generation has really revealed itself yet, but I'm very confident that based on the infrastructure that's there, based on the amount of talent, the artists who call it home, both from there and not, like, I really think there'll be another wave, and there's just always another wave, in a way that even New York, you know, has struggled to bring the championship belt back that many times, you know? But I think, you know, Atlanta's regeneration has always been sort of its calling card.  [00:22:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think one of the things that stands out about Atlanta too, and this is a bit of a sad way to frame it, but they've been able to withstand the jail time or the charges that happen for a lot of the rappers that are in their prime. Of course, we saw that happened with the West Coast in the nineties, Death Row, and you know, everything with Suge Knight and Tupac. I think we saw that a bit with the East Coast as well. But Atlanta, unfortunately, whether it's T.I., Gucci, like, a lot of them have served time, but the city still has been able to still thrive in hip hop because there was always someone else coming through. And I think even more recently now with Gunna and Thug, dealing with the RICO case and everything, who knows how that'll end up. But I think the difference for them and the city now as opposed to other areas is that even if you know, let's say that they may not be able to make music or this hinders their rise, there are other folks that can continue to have the city continue to rise up in the music around it. [00:23:38] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah, and I think so much of this music, right, the music that's come out of Atlanta in the last 30 years, like, it comes from struggle, right? It comes from necessity. And the things you're describing, whether it's, you know, violence, death, you know, the criminal justice, the weight of the state on these young black men, mostly. And they do tend to be men, especially in this scene, though that's changing too. You know, I think when people feel backed into a corner, like, art can come from that, right? So whether it's YSL directly or it's the people, they influence, the people from their neighborhood who are going to fill that void. I think, you know, the people hear the urgency in this music, right? They hear the, whether it's the joy or the pain, you know, there's a lot of feeling here. And I think, yeah, the tough times, people bounce back out of that. And trap is so much about that in general that I think it'll just continue to happen. [00:24:29] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And in the beginning of this conversation, you talked a little bit about how Hoop Dreams and that type of story was definitely an inspiration, and of course, that was nearly a three-hour long movie, if I remember correctly, the timeframe there. In terms of this book, already reading it, maybe through the first few chapters, I was like, oh, this is going to get turned into some type of TV or series or a movie or something like that. I could already see that happening. Was that in the back of your mind as you were thinking about what this could look like? Obviously, I'm sure you're so focused on the book, but were you, as you're thinking about the inspiration, were you thinking about multimedia adaptations?  [00:25:05] Joe Coscarelli: You know, I wasn't as much as I should have been, right? Otherwise, I would've been recording my audio better to turn it into a podcast, to then turn it into a doc series or whatever it is. I'm very much like a print writer, right? Like, I'm a newspaper reporter. I don't even think about images really as much as I think about words. And yet, like, so much of my influence, like, you know, Hoop Dreams was always the sort of the north star of this, but, like, I'm a huge consumer of television and film and stories of all kinds. So I knew I wanted the scope of the story to at least have that potential, right, to feel grand, to feel cinematic, to feel like it was about a time and a place and characters, which I think, you know, is often easier to do in a visual medium. So I had it in mind. But I was really too focused on just getting the words down on the page and getting the material I needed. I hope you're right and that now that this thing exists, right, this big book, like you said, Hoop Dreams is a three-hour movie, and this is like the book equivalent of a three-hour movie. It's almost 400 pages, so it has that sort of epic quality. And I think there is, you know, hopefully, more to mine there, not necessarily in recreating the stories that I've already captured, but in that essence, in that spirit and the way that Atlanta sort of goes in waves and goes in cycles. I hope there's a way to be able to capture that visually as well.  [00:26:23] Dan Runcie: If you could handpick any director you would want to lead a project on Rap Capital who'd you pick? [00:26:29] Joe Coscarelli: Oh, man. All time. I mean, that's a tough one. Look, I mean, what Donald Glover and Hiro Murai have done with their Atlanta series, you know, it's much more surreal than this. It's fictionalized, but the parts of it that are based, you know, more on earth and more in the music industry, like, are just captured so well. I think, Hiro, as a director specifically, was able to, you know, all the aerial shots, like the highways, the roads, the woods, like that version of Atlanta is really seared in my mind. And, you know, I know they've done their version, but I think there's more to do. But then there's like the younger generation, right, of video directors and stuff that I'm just waiting to be able to see their worlds on a larger scale, you know, someone like Spike Jordan or someone like Daps who have their hand in, or, you know, Keemotion, like people who have their hand in a lot of the visual representation of this music on YouTube. And I think I would love to see what they would do, right? I would love to see the present-day music video directors' version of Belly, right, in Atlanta. Like, Belly, one of my favorite, you know, top five favorite movies ever, and has that sort of that music video quality to it in a lot of ways, but then blown up for the big screen. Like, I want some of those guys to have a canvas like that to paint on.  [00:27:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good answer because I think that, especially the Hiro one, because I think that Atlanta, as a TV show, does capture so much of it. And you're right, the episodes that are set in earth and not the surreal, you know, messages. But yeah, the ones that are set in earth do capture a lot of the intricacies about the music industry and I think the reality, which is I think something you do in the book as well. I also think that some of the newer music video directors, too, just given the world that they're capturing, do so much of that well, too, and I think having that is key because, of course, some of the more established names have a picture of Atlanta, but it may be more relevant to that, you know, LaFace era of Atlanta, which, while very impactful, isn't what your book is about. [00:28:27] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah, I think there's a new wave, right, and the people who are responsible for the iconography of this wave. You know, even the crazy run of Young Thug videos, I think the director Be EL Be, is that his name? You know, just super, super surreal sort of dream world stuff. But I want to see what those guys can do with the present day, given the budgets, you know, if they were given a Hollywood-size budget instead of a rap video-size budget. [00:28:53] Dan Runcie: Well, I will definitely be keeping an eye out for that because I feel like it's one of these inevitable things and it'll be fun to watch for sure.  [00:28:59] Joe Coscarelli: Fingers crossed. Yeah.  [00:29:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. All right. Well, before we wrap things up, I do want to go back to one thing about the music industry because you had tweeted something out, I forget how long ago it was, but Punch from TDE had, shoutout to Punch, he had asked a question about when did the personalities become bigger than the music, and you had responded and said, well, there's some nuance here. Look at someone like Rod Wave who is, you know, selling multiple times more than someone like Megan Thee Stallion. And I think Rod Wave is someone that, unless you know the music, you're not necessarily tapping in, versus Megan who's someone that's performing at all the big award shows and has a lot of the big features, how do you make sense of that dichotomy between those examples and maybe what it says about where we are in the industry and how to make sense of it? [00:29:45] Joe Coscarelli: I think there's just been a real crumbling of the monoculture, right? Like, before. You would expect, if somebody had a number one hit, if somebody had a number one album, everyone would know who they were, right? I would know, you would know, your mom would know, my grandma would know. They would at least have some vague idea, right, of who Shania Twain was, or you know, Katy Perry, whoever it may be, even Ed Sheeran, to name one of the last, I think, monoculture stars. Whereas today everything is so fragmented, right? You write about this in your newsletter, whether it's streaming TV or movies or music, like, everything finds its own little audience, and it's sometimes it's not even that little, you know. Jon Caramanica, the pop music critic here at the Times, and I collaborated on a piece, you know, I think probably almost four years ago at this point, saying like, your old idea of a pop star is dead. Your new idea of a pop star is, you know, it's Bad Bunny. It's BTS. It's Rosalía who's not selling a ton of albums, but can pack out two shows at Radio City Music Hall without saying a word of English, basically, you know. And people are finding these artists on their own, right? You think of NBA YoungBoy, another one who's like, basically, the biggest rap artist we've had over the last five years, and he gets no radio play. He's never been on television, he's never played SNL. He has, you know, maybe one magazine cover, national magazine cover in his past, that happened when he was, you know, 16, 17 years old. And yet, like the numbers on YouTube are bigger than Ariana Grande's, for instance, you know. So I think these audiences have just splintered. And there are a few people who permeate, right, personality-wise, you know, Megan Thee Stallion or whatever. But often the music is somehow divorced from that, right? Like, I think there's far more people who know these next-generation stars from being in commercials or, you know, Bad Bunny in a Corona commercial or whatever it is, then can sing one of their songs word for word. And I think that's fine. You know, I think that a lot of artists have found freedom in that, right? I keep coming back to artists who sing in Spanish primarily. Like, before I would be that to cross over, you had to change, right? You had to start singing in English, at least somewhat, like a Shakira or whatever it is. But now, that's no longer a prerequisite because your audience is going to find you on Spotify, they're going to come to your shows, they're going to buy merch. And even if you're not getting played on Z100 or, you know, Top 40 radio, you can still have as much of a footprint. It's just not in that same everybody knows the same 10 people way, you know?  [00:32:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think that the fact that someone like Bad Bunny has an album that's not in English, that has been on the top of the US charts for, what, 30%, 40% of the weeks of the year is incredible.  [00:32:24] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think that he is a celebrity, right, he is in films, he's in Bullet Train, he's in commercials, whatever. But I still think if you, you know, maybe it's different in New York, but if you went on the street and you asked, you know, your average 42-year-old white woman who Bad Bunny was, or to name a Bad Bunny song, it might not happen. But he's still selling out Yankee Stadium, you know, so it's this weird give and take of, like, what makes a hit these days, what makes a superstar. I think, you know, to bring it back, like, Lil Baby is in this boat too. Like, he's as close to, we have, I think, in the new school as a mainstream superstar, right, headlining festivals, you know, he's performing at the World Cup. He is sponsored, you know, Budweiser sponsors him. He's in, you know, all sorts of commercials, and he is really moved into that upper echelon. But he is still not a celebrity, right, in the way that a 50 Cent or a Jay-Z is to everyone. But he is to a certain generation. So it'll be interesting to see if he can sort of push past that last barrier and become a household name. But he doesn't need it, right? He doesn't have to be a household name to be the biggest rapper in the country.  [00:33:28] Dan Runcie: Right. I think the part that I'm really fascinated by, too, is how this separation of, yes, you can be someone that is more known for personality than music, how that will translate to the labels they're assigned to, which of course are in the business of people actually streaming and listening to your music, and they're not necessarily in the business of selling personality or selling brand deals, right? Like, they're not getting the Pepsi deals or they're not, like, that's Pepsi doing that, you know what I mean? So it'll be interesting to see what that looks like 'cause obviously I know that there are legal challenges and transgressions with maybe why someone like a Rod Wave or like an NBA YoungBoy may not be getting asked to perform at the Grammy's, right? Like, I think that's pretty easy to understand. Or even someone like a Summer Walker who I think that does very well from a streaming perspective, but I think, you know, personally, just isn't the personality type to want to be all out there, right?  [00:34:21] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah, has no interest in being a celebrity, but I think it's almost healthier, right, for some of these artists to be able to say, like, I've seen what happens on the fame side, and I don't want that part. I just want to make my music and play for my fans. Like, I think that's becoming maybe more and more of a possibility, where you can speak directly to your fans and not have to play the game, right, with the gatekeepers that might not actually be turning into anything at this point other than mind share. So, yeah, there's a lot of different kinds of stardom right now, and I think, like, the cult star, the, like, mass cult star, Tyler, the Creator, you know, the way he built up his career. You've written about this over so many years. Like, he doesn't have a smash hit, he doesn't have an Old Town Road, you know, or a Call Me Maybe, or whatever it is. He doesn't have that defining record or pop cultural moment. He just has years and years and years of solid growth, and people respond to that, and that you can pack arenas on that just as easily as you, and maybe even more effectively than you can on the back of one or two massive hits. [00:35:25] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely now, for sure. It'll be fascinating to watch and I'll be looking out for your continued reporting and thoughts on this, yeah, such a fascinating time in the industry. But Joe, it's been a pleasure, man. Hey, if anyone listening, if you are a fan of this podcast, believe me, this is a book. I can't recommend it enough. You'll enjoy it. But Joe, for the folks listening, where can they get Rap Capital?  [00:35:47] Joe Coscarelli: Rap Capital: An Atlanta Story, out October 18th, available wherever books are sold, Amazon, Barnes & Noble. Get an audiobook, should be out soon at your local bookstore. Yeah, hopefully, you'll be able to find it. Rap Capital. Thanks so much for having me.  [00:36:00] Dan Runcie: Awesome. Thanks for coming on and great work again.  [00:36:02] Joe Coscarelli: It was really fun. Thanks.  [00:36:03] Dan Runcie: Really good. [00:36:04] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 13 Oct 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Rap Capital: The Rise & Reign Of Atlanta’s Hip-Hop Empire full Dan Runcie The dominance of Atlanta’s hip-hop scene has been discussed often, but not in the way Joe Coscarelli covered it in his new book, Rap Capital. Joe, a New York Times music reporter since 2015, spent four years and interviewed over 100 sources to get the contemporary story about Atlanta’s culture-defining music scene. Characters are what move the story forward in Joe’s book, not discography, record sales, or cultural relevance. Lil Baby is featured prominently, as is his mom. Joe’s relationship with the hit rapper dates back to 2017 when Lil Baby was still a mixtape artist. Another recurring character is Quality Control Music’s Kevin “Coach K” Lee, who has deep-rooted ties with the city’s most well-known artists across eras. Joe came onto the show to take us through the book’s journey — both for him to write it and the characters themselves. Here’s what we covered: [2:40] How the book came together and finally clicked [6:42] Role of Quality Control’s Coach K in Atlanta story [10:11] Lasting effects of pandemic on music industry [12:38] Which era of Atlanta hip-hop to focus on?  [14:09] How streaming helped launch Atlanta rap into the mainstream [16:10] Building trust with his sources despite racial differences [18:10] Did Joe receive any pushback while reporting? [20:19] Evolution key to Atlanta rap’s longevity  [25:05] Adapting Rap Capital into a movie [29:45] The crumbling of mainstream culture   Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Joe Coscarelli, @joecoscarelli     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Joe Coscarelli:  I wanted to tell the story through characters, through people, not just, you know, you can run down the discography of all the amazing Atlanta musicians, right? You can go through the label history, read the reviews. But I always want to sort of pull back like, who's behind these people? Who's behind that person? So that's why I think, you know, mothers were huge, fathers, you know, friends, people who are around these artists growing up, I wanted them to be human characters, and I wanted the side characters to be as big of a part as the famous people 'cause I think they're as crucial to the equation.  [00:00:30] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.   [00:00:58] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Joe Coscarelli. He's the author of Rap Capital: An Atlanta Story, and he's a culture reporter at The New York Times. And this book that he wrote, Rap Capital, I cannot recommend it enough. If you listen to this podcast, if you read the newsletter, if you watch any of the clips from our conversations or any of the posts on social media, this book is made for you. It's a street-level epic about the most consequential music culture today, Atlanta Rap. Joe put so much thought and care into how the book came together and tying everything from the Atlanta murders that happened decades ago and how that shaped the rap culture and the broader culture for black folks in Atlanta that we see today, and how that led to someone like Lil Baby, how that led to someone like Coach K having such an influence over hip hop music and the culture for decades now. This book was a great opportunity as well to have a trip down memory lane. A lot of us understand how influential Atlanta's been, but it was great to have it be told from a unique way. We also talked about broader trends happening in the streaming era right now in music, what a movie or film or TV show adaptation could look like for Rap Capital, and more. Here's our conversation. Hope you enjoy it. All right. Today we had Joe Coscarelli, the author of Rap Capital: An Atlanta story and read the book, really enjoyed it, and I got to ask because I was going through the synopsis and you said this was four years in the making, and I got to imagine with a book like this, there was some point when things started to click in that four-year process. When did you feel like things were coming together for you?  [00:02:40] Joe Coscarelli: So I knew that there was a book in this stuff because I had done a handful of stories through my day job at The New York Times about Atlanta. I started this beat in late 2014. So., You know, my first couple years on the job, streaming was really taking over and specifically rap music and streaming. So I just found myself over and over again talking to the same group of people, right? I did a Migos Story, did a QC story that featured Lil Baby, one of his first interviews. I wrote about Drew Findling who's a lawyer in the book that's all over the news these days in various capacities. So I knew from those stories that there was something here. But I didn't know what it was going to be. I knew I wanted to not just tell a history, but follow characters in real-time as they tried to make it. That's something I always want to do in my work. You know, so my favorite art ever is like Hoop Dreams or a music documentary like Dig!, which follows two bands across a long period of time. One of them makes it, one of them doesn't make it. That's always what I want to bring to my reporting is this idea of a journey, right? And it doesn't even matter what the destination is, but following, specifically artists and musicians as they're trying to make something out of their lives, that to me, is just a timeless tale, right, of ambition and dreams, and so I knew I had a handful of characters that I wanted to go on this trip with, but I didn't really know how it tied into the broader story of Atlanta until a real marathon brunch interview with Lil Baby's mother, Lashawn. He was, you know, he and I had a rapport at that point. I'd interviewed him a few times. I did talk to a lot of people around him, and he was kind enough to set me up directly with his mom. And, you know, we sat down at a brunch place outside of Atlanta. And, you know, she said, I asked him, I asked Dominique, her son, we're like, what do I tell him? And he told her tell him everything. And she really did, her whole life story became part of the book, especially the foundation of the book, in the first part. And she had such an incredible life on her own. You know, I hope she writes a memoir someday. But when I learned really that she had been friends in school with an early victim of the Atlanta child murders, which were happening on the west side of Atlanta in the late seventies, early eighties, that she had a firsthand relationship to that historical event that I feel like really left its mark on the city. And she was open. She said it sort of affected the kind of mother that she became, and I think ultimately helped set Dominique, Lil Baby, on his path. And all of that could be traced to, like, something she went through as a kid that also spoke more broadly to Atlanta and the way it has developed socially, politically, culturally, especially Black Atlanta over the last 40, 50 years. So that was a real breakthrough moment for me, and I knew that I could start with her story, which in many ways was also the story of Atlanta in the last, you know, half a century.  [00:05:30] Dan Runcie: And in reading that first piece, too, I could see how much care and thought was put into it from your perspective of going through what happened with those murders and then how that traces directly to someone like Lil Baby because it's hard to tell the story of Atlanta hip hop without doing all of that. And that's something that I think is often missing with so much of the discussion about Atlanta's run, which is why I feel like your book does stand as its own and is able to have a unique voice and perspective on this. [00:05:58] Joe Coscarelli: I appreciate that. Yeah, I wanted to tell the story through characters, right, through people, not just, you know, you can run down the discography of all the amazing Atlanta musicians, right? You can go through the label history, read the reviews. But I always want to sort of pull back like, who's behind these people? Who's behind that person, you know? So that's why I think, you know, mothers were huge, fathers, you know, friends, people who are around these artists growing up, I wanted them to be human characters, and I wanted the side characters to be as big of a part as the famous people 'cause I think they're as crucial to the equation.  [00:06:31] Dan Runcie: And of course, Lil Baby is one of the central characters. Another one is Coach K, who's one of the folks leading up Quality Control Music. Why was it important for him to be a central character in this too?  [00:06:42] Joe Coscarelli: So Coach K is amazing because you can tell basically the last 30 years of rap music only through his career, right? When I said I wanted to be able to trace characters back through the years to artists and eras, like, Coach has seen it all, right? This is a man who was passing out Church fans to promote Pastor Troy and the congregation in the mid-nineties. Then he goes from that to representing all these producers who were, you know, crucial to founding the trap sound, someone like Drama Boy. And then he's working with Young Jeezy, right, as the Snowman mythology takes over and, you know, Def Jam South and the explosion of trap music on a national scale. Coach is behind that, right? You know, there's a moment I talk about in the book where they put the commercial on the radio right, in Atlanta, when the Jeezy's mixtapes, Trap or Die are coming out, right, and it's All Traps Closed today, like National Holiday, you know, like these are the things that Coach was cooking up behind the scenes. Then he works with Gucci Mane, right, who was blood rivals with Jeezy. And then that brings you up to the present day, and in 2013, he and P, his partner Pierre Thomas, they founded Quality Control, and then they have Migos, right, and then they have a Lil Yachty, and then they have Lil Baby. And through Coach K, you could talk about every single one of those careers and so many more that he was on the periphery of, even if he wasn't the main executive or manager involved. So I just think, you know, there's nobody more crucial to that ecosystem at this moment and through the last couple of decades than Kevin Lee, Coach K.  [00:08:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think one of the things that stands out about their run, too, is that it wasn't just one artist and they faded and rose with that artist. And I think that's what we've seen a lot in the streaming era, frankly, from a lot of the record labels that have rose up. They had the runs, and even when one star started to fade from a group that was the hottest group in the moment, they had others that came through, and you're seeing that infrastructure. I feel like that's one thing that sets them apart from a lot of the others at this moment.  [00:08:42] Joe Coscarelli: Totally. For them, it's all about artist development, right? Like, I remember being around them in the office, you know, in late 2017 and they were talking about whether they should have gone after Bhad Bhabie, you know, the Cash Me Outside girl. And like they would see little things pop up and think like, oh, should we get in on that viral moment? And then they would be like, No, that's not what we do. We build artists, we build careers, we build brands. And something that's so special about Quality Control and why they were able to, you know, be the backbone of this book is because they are invested in that sort of old school Motown-esque record business thing of I'm going to pluck someone who might not even think they're a musician, and we're going to believe in them, and we're going to back them, and we're going to build it from the ground up, right, and we're going to build it Atlanta first. Whereas so much in the viral marketing, streaming world of today is going top-down, right? It's a TikTok hit, then it's a major label deal, and this person's probably never even played a show before. They're still very invested in the grassroots bottom-up approach, and I think that's worked for them so many times now that the playbook is, you know, you can't deny it. [00:09:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think that also that goes with something that I've seen you talk about even outside of the book as well, just some of the challenges that a lot of the artists and labels have right now in terms of now that the pandemic has, at least in this stage that we're in right now, there's still some lasting effects in terms of how that's shaping the charts, how that's shaping how music's released. What have you been seeing there from that perspective?  [00:10:11] Joe Coscarelli: I mean, you know, a lot of people have been writing this year, yourself included, about the sort of stagnancy of the charts, how, you know, there aren't a lot of new breakout hits, especially in rap music, which had been so dominant for the last decade, essentially, as things started to move online and towards streaming. And I think you're right that a lot of that is pandemic hangover, right? Like, people were not outside like they used to be. Artists were not sort of feeling that energy, that creative energy. They were creating often, like, in a little bubble. I'm sure you get projects like a Beyoncé's RENAISSANCE that comes out of that pandemic moment and maybe speaks to some people's hopes and dreams for what the next few years will be, a little freer. But you don't have any chance for that sort of grassroots development, right? So we saw a lot of things come off of TikTok, but as I was getting at, like, those people, they haven't had the opportunity to touch their fans, right, to speak to the sort of ground swell of support. So you get a lot of things that feel fleeting and then you have something massive, right? Bad Bunny or like Morgan Wallen that's just like lodged up there at the top of the charts 'cause I think those guys had a fully formed thing going into the pandemic and were able to ride it through. You know, when you think about a lot of rap, especially regionally, that's bubbling now, there's a lot of drill, right? Like, you think of the stuff coming out of Brooklyn and the Bronx and that sound traveling all over the country. And I think, you know, since Pop Smoke, we haven't really had a sort of mainstream emissary for that sound. And it is such a local, such a hyper-local, such an underground phenomenon that you haven't really had someone translate it for the mainstream, you know, maybe that's going to be Ice Spice, maybe that's going to be Fivio Foreign, and like, you know, maybe it's going to be someone younger. But I think we're still waiting, right, for what that next wave, especially in rap, is going to be. You see the sort of sun may be setting on the trap era that's described in the book in the rise of drill as the default of what a rap song sounds like, but again, that hasn't really crossed over quite yet.  [00:12:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's been fascinating just to see how the streaming era has shaped things, specifically with how much you focused on it in the book. And with a topic like Atlanta hip hop, there are likely so many sectors that you could have dove in on, and of course, Lil Baby being a central figure did lend itself to the streaming era. But how did you decide which era to focus on? Because there's so many time spans that you probably could have done and equally deep dive on. [00:12:38] Joe Coscarelli: I always knew I wanted to tell a contemporary story, right? Like, I'm more of a reporter than I am a historian. So I'm not a musicologist, I'm not a music critic. You know, I've never really written criticism in terms of album reviews or show reviews, things like that. So I knew I wanted to be able to witness as much as I could firsthand and write about that because that's what I love to do in my work, getting back to this idea of, you know, being a fly on the wall for someone's journey, for someone's rise, for someone's fall even. So it was always going to be contemporary, right? And I feel like you have to tell a little bit of the history, right? You have to talk about Freaknik, you have to talk about OutKast, and the Dungeon Family, and LaFace Records, and So So Def to be able to get to this moment. But I think for me, like, I'm not someone who writes about music nostalgically. Sure, I love the stuff I grew up on, but I'd rather look forwards than backwards. And I think, character-wise, I just want to stay with the cutting edge, right? I want to see what's next. I want to see who's changing things, who's, you know, who's moving things forward. And that's just what I seek out in my life and in my job. So I think it was always going to be as contemporary as possible.  [00:13:46] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. I think that streaming also allowed us to see more growth from the areas that I think, in a lot of ways, were a bit held back from gatekeepers controlling everything. And I think Atlanta's a perfect example of that, even though they had the massive rise, you know, nineties, early 2000s, it went to another level this past decade.  [00:14:09] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah. And I think you know that sort of in-between time, right, when you think about post-Napster and file sharing, post-CD crash in the early 2000s. But pre-streaming, like, a lot of what became the go-to playbook for streaming was happening in the underground mixtape scene, especially in Atlanta and in the South. And you think of things like DatPiff or you know, sites like that where free mix tapes were coming out and it was all about quantity, right, in a way that really set these artists for the streaming era, right? You think of Lil Wayne's mixtape run, Gucci's mixtape run, and then Future's mixtape run. It was just about music, music, music, music. And so Migos sort of got in at the tail end of that and they released, you know, whatever it is, 5, 7, 10 mixtapes before they put out a proper debut album. And then when they finally hit with something like Culture, their second proper full length, the world had finally caught up to them and the rest of the Atlanta artists. And yet there's this whole group in between that gets left behind, right? Like, I'd love to read a book about Travis Porter and Rich Kidz and you know, these Atlanta rappers who are really, like, laying the groundwork for a lot of this, even like Rocko or you know, early career Future. Like these guys, I think if they would've come out once Spotify was as big as it is now, they would've been huge national and international stars. And instead, they sort of get caught in this in-between zone. So, you know, I think, I love to see when art lines up with the technology of the moment, and I think these Atlanta rappers were in the perfect place at the perfect time to take advantage of that explosion.  [00:15:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I agree. And then even reading it too, and thinking about this conversation we're having, so much of you framing this as you're a reporter, you're capturing what's happening contemporary, and given the insights and the things that people are sharing with you, the amount of trust that you were needed to develop with them, and we talked a lot about the aspect of race and how that plays in. How did you navigate that yourself as a white man and trying to tell this black story and making sure that you're capturing it in the best way possible?  [00:16:10] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah. You know, obviously, I thought about this a lot in the reporting, in the conception of the book, and certainly in the writing and the editing. I think the job of any journalist, right, is to be like a respectful, humble, open-minded guest in other people's worlds, right, and to be well aware of what you know and what you don't know. Like, that goes for when I'm interviewing a female artist, a trans songwriter, reggaeton star. I think, like, to navigate spaces where you're not an insider, like, it's best to come prepared and engaged and curious. Like, I did my research, I knew what I was talking about to the extent that I could, but I also was eager to, like, defer to people who are the experts, right? I made sure that everyone from artists to managers, family members, like, they knew that I wanted to take whatever platform I had with the book and with my work at The New York Times, and sort of take their work seriously to shine a light on it, and recognize it as important as it is, right, this cultural product that has this immense influence and impact. So I wanted to really preserve these moments to the best of my ability for the history books. And I think that my subjects got that right away. You know, I don't think it took a lot of time for them to spend with me to see that I was really dedicated in that mission, that I was going to be respectful of their time and space, interested in the work that they were doing and the lives they were living. And then, like, your credibility travels, right? One person can vouch for you with another, you know, with a collaborator, with a family member. And I just wanted to just defer to them and their experiences. And I think I took that with me in the writing of the book. You know, of course, there's analysis, there's observation, but I really wanted people to speak for themselves. The book is very quote-heavy. I really wanted to capture people as they are, do an accurate portrayal of what it is they've been through. Hopefully, I think the quality speaks for itself. But I wanted to, you know, give these people whatever, spotlight, whatever platform I can offer. And then tell the truest version of how they relate it to me.  [00:18:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's the best and the most fair way to do it. Along the way though, did you receive any pushback or any type of challenge as you were doing this? [00:18:10] Joe Coscarelli: There's very little. I think I'm fortunate enough to, you know, have an institution like The New York Times behind me. I think, you know, people take that name seriously. It opens a lot of doors, whether or not I was a good reporter. And I think when you can open the door and then when you show up, and you're thorough, and you're accurate, you know, I'd written a lot about these people before the book, I think that the trust just grows and grows. And I was also finding people really at the beginning, right, of their careers in a lot of cases, like Lil Baby, like, you know, he may not be able to spell my last name, but he knows that I was that guy with him listening to his mixtape tracks as they were deciding what was going to be on, you know, his second, his third mixtape. And he's seen me for years along the way, supporting that journey, you know, engaging with the work, like I said. And, you know, meeting people at the beginnings of things, they remember, right, who was there with them and who was supportive and who got it. And I think that that went a long way for me with my subjects. I think the other thing is like, you know, in the music industry, whether it's rap, you know, southern rap, regional street rap, like, there's always a white guy around, you know. I talk about this in the book, whether it's a dj, a producer, a manager, you know, this is a trope, this is a tradition. And I think, you know, sometimes it goes well, sometimes it goes poorly. But I try to always be above board and respectful in my dealings. But I think, you know, when you're riding around in Atlanta, with a rapper and you look like I do, you know, someone's just going to assume that I'm either from the label or I'm from The FADER, you know, something like that. [00:19:41] Dan Runcie: Exactly. Exactly. But no, I think that, given this, as you mentioned, yeah, there's plenty of precedent for people having done this before. And yeah, I think the care that you bring into it with the book is clearly shown. And thinking about that, as you mentioned, just you driving around Atlanta, getting a feel for the vibe of the city and everything else, spending so much time there, how do you feel about the run that Atlanta's currently having and how this will continue? Because I think that like anything, people are always thinking of what is the next thing. How long does this last? We, of course, saw the east and west coast rise and fall. What do you feel, like, the next decade or so it looks like for Atlanta in hip hop?  [00:20:19] Joe Coscarelli: I mean, the thing that's been so amazing about Atlanta, the reason it can be the subject of a book like this is because every time you would think it was over, they would just come up with a new thing, right? So like, you know, you think back to OutKast, you think back to So So Def, you know, you have the run of Ludacris, who becomes, you know, this crazy mainstream success story, you have Gucci, and Jeezy, and the rise of trap, and T.I., you know, becomes this huge crossover star. And then you think that that's over. And then you have crunk, and you have Lil Jon, and you think that's over. And then here's comes Waka Flocka Flame coming up from under Gucci, you know. Even someone like Gucci, he's helped birth three, four micro-generations of Atlanta rappers. And, you know, someone like Young Thug comes out and you're like, oh, like, this is too eccentric. This is never going to happen, right? Like, this is only for the real heads, only for people listening underground, and then all of a sudden he's on SNL, right? And he's in Vogue. And just over and over again, you have these guys sort of breakthrough with something that seems like it's too outre. It's too avant-garde. You know, even Migos and their sort of like punk repetition, you know, people heard Bando and said like, oh, this is annoying. Like, this is going nowhere, and then all of a sudden the whole radio sounds like that. So there's a part of me that does feel like, you know, this book is sort of capturing a contained era, right? The first 7, 8, 9, 10 years of streaming and the intensity and the tragedy of the YSL indictment. Like, maybe that's a hard stop to this era. But I think you can never count Atlanta out, right? So like, you might not know exactly what's coming next, but there's always more kids like this, like coming up with something new, taking what came before them, putting like a twist on it, and then all of a sudden it's on the radio, right? So like, even me, like, I see like a real post-Playboy Cardi, you know, sort of experimental streak in a lot of these rappers. I think there's some drill influence coming into Atlanta. And I don't think the next generation has really revealed itself yet, but I'm very confident that based on the infrastructure that's there, based on the amount of talent, the artists who call it home, both from there and not, like, I really think there'll be another wave, and there's just always another wave, in a way that even New York, you know, has struggled to bring the championship belt back that many times, you know? But I think, you know, Atlanta's regeneration has always been sort of its calling card.  [00:22:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think one of the things that stands out about Atlanta too, and this is a bit of a sad way to frame it, but they've been able to withstand the jail time or the charges that happen for a lot of the rappers that are in their prime. Of course, we saw that happened with the West Coast in the nineties, Death Row, and you know, everything with Suge Knight and Tupac. I think we saw that a bit with the East Coast as well. But Atlanta, unfortunately, whether it's T.I., Gucci, like, a lot of them have served time, but the city still has been able to still thrive in hip hop because there was always someone else coming through. And I think even more recently now with Gunna and Thug, dealing with the RICO case and everything, who knows how that'll end up. But I think the difference for them and the city now as opposed to other areas is that even if you know, let's say that they may not be able to make music or this hinders their rise, there are other folks that can continue to have the city continue to rise up in the music around it. [00:23:38] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah, and I think so much of this music, right, the music that's come out of Atlanta in the last 30 years, like, it comes from struggle, right? It comes from necessity. And the things you're describing, whether it's, you know, violence, death, you know, the criminal justice, the weight of the state on these young black men, mostly. And they do tend to be men, especially in this scene, though that's changing too. You know, I think when people feel backed into a corner, like, art can come from that, right? So whether it's YSL directly or it's the people, they influence, the people from their neighborhood who are going to fill that void. I think, you know, the people hear the urgency in this music, right? They hear the, whether it's the joy or the pain, you know, there's a lot of feeling here. And I think, yeah, the tough times, people bounce back out of that. And trap is so much about that in general that I think it'll just continue to happen. [00:24:29] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And in the beginning of this conversation, you talked a little bit about how Hoop Dreams and that type of story was definitely an inspiration, and of course, that was nearly a three-hour long movie, if I remember correctly, the timeframe there. In terms of this book, already reading it, maybe through the first few chapters, I was like, oh, this is going to get turned into some type of TV or series or a movie or something like that. I could already see that happening. Was that in the back of your mind as you were thinking about what this could look like? Obviously, I'm sure you're so focused on the book, but were you, as you're thinking about the inspiration, were you thinking about multimedia adaptations?  [00:25:05] Joe Coscarelli: You know, I wasn't as much as I should have been, right? Otherwise, I would've been recording my audio better to turn it into a podcast, to then turn it into a doc series or whatever it is. I'm very much like a print writer, right? Like, I'm a newspaper reporter. I don't even think about images really as much as I think about words. And yet, like, so much of my influence, like, you know, Hoop Dreams was always the sort of the north star of this, but, like, I'm a huge consumer of television and film and stories of all kinds. So I knew I wanted the scope of the story to at least have that potential, right, to feel grand, to feel cinematic, to feel like it was about a time and a place and characters, which I think, you know, is often easier to do in a visual medium. So I had it in mind. But I was really too focused on just getting the words down on the page and getting the material I needed. I hope you're right and that now that this thing exists, right, this big book, like you said, Hoop Dreams is a three-hour movie, and this is like the book equivalent of a three-hour movie. It's almost 400 pages, so it has that sort of epic quality. And I think there is, you know, hopefully, more to mine there, not necessarily in recreating the stories that I've already captured, but in that essence, in that spirit and the way that Atlanta sort of goes in waves and goes in cycles. I hope there's a way to be able to capture that visually as well.  [00:26:23] Dan Runcie: If you could handpick any director you would want to lead a project on Rap Capital who'd you pick? [00:26:29] Joe Coscarelli: Oh, man. All time. I mean, that's a tough one. Look, I mean, what Donald Glover and Hiro Murai have done with their Atlanta series, you know, it's much more surreal than this. It's fictionalized, but the parts of it that are based, you know, more on earth and more in the music industry, like, are just captured so well. I think, Hiro, as a director specifically, was able to, you know, all the aerial shots, like the highways, the roads, the woods, like that version of Atlanta is really seared in my mind. And, you know, I know they've done their version, but I think there's more to do. But then there's like the younger generation, right, of video directors and stuff that I'm just waiting to be able to see their worlds on a larger scale, you know, someone like Spike Jordan or someone like Daps who have their hand in, or, you know, Keemotion, like people who have their hand in a lot of the visual representation of this music on YouTube. And I think I would love to see what they would do, right? I would love to see the present-day music video directors' version of Belly, right, in Atlanta. Like, Belly, one of my favorite, you know, top five favorite movies ever, and has that sort of that music video quality to it in a lot of ways, but then blown up for the big screen. Like, I want some of those guys to have a canvas like that to paint on.  [00:27:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good answer because I think that, especially the Hiro one, because I think that Atlanta, as a TV show, does capture so much of it. And you're right, the episodes that are set in earth and not the surreal, you know, messages. But yeah, the ones that are set in earth do capture a lot of the intricacies about the music industry and I think the reality, which is I think something you do in the book as well. I also think that some of the newer music video directors, too, just given the world that they're capturing, do so much of that well, too, and I think having that is key because, of course, some of the more established names have a picture of Atlanta, but it may be more relevant to that, you know, LaFace era of Atlanta, which, while very impactful, isn't what your book is about. [00:28:27] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah, I think there's a new wave, right, and the people who are responsible for the iconography of this wave. You know, even the crazy run of Young Thug videos, I think the director Be EL Be, is that his name? You know, just super, super surreal sort of dream world stuff. But I want to see what those guys can do with the present day, given the budgets, you know, if they were given a Hollywood-size budget instead of a rap video-size budget. [00:28:53] Dan Runcie: Well, I will definitely be keeping an eye out for that because I feel like it's one of these inevitable things and it'll be fun to watch for sure.  [00:28:59] Joe Coscarelli: Fingers crossed. Yeah.  [00:29:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. All right. Well, before we wrap things up, I do want to go back to one thing about the music industry because you had tweeted something out, I forget how long ago it was, but Punch from TDE had, shoutout to Punch, he had asked a question about when did the personalities become bigger than the music, and you had responded and said, well, there's some nuance here. Look at someone like Rod Wave who is, you know, selling multiple times more than someone like Megan Thee Stallion. And I think Rod Wave is someone that, unless you know the music, you're not necessarily tapping in, versus Megan who's someone that's performing at all the big award shows and has a lot of the big features, how do you make sense of that dichotomy between those examples and maybe what it says about where we are in the industry and how to make sense of it? [00:29:45] Joe Coscarelli: I think there's just been a real crumbling of the monoculture, right? Like, before. You would expect, if somebody had a number one hit, if somebody had a number one album, everyone would know who they were, right? I would know, you would know, your mom would know, my grandma would know. They would at least have some vague idea, right, of who Shania Twain was, or you know, Katy Perry, whoever it may be, even Ed Sheeran, to name one of the last, I think, monoculture stars. Whereas today everything is so fragmented, right? You write about this in your newsletter, whether it's streaming TV or movies or music, like, everything finds its own little audience, and it's sometimes it's not even that little, you know. Jon Caramanica, the pop music critic here at the Times, and I collaborated on a piece, you know, I think probably almost four years ago at this point, saying like, your old idea of a pop star is dead. Your new idea of a pop star is, you know, it's Bad Bunny. It's BTS. It's Rosalía who's not selling a ton of albums, but can pack out two shows at Radio City Music Hall without saying a word of English, basically, you know. And people are finding these artists on their own, right? You think of NBA YoungBoy, another one who's like, basically, the biggest rap artist we've had over the last five years, and he gets no radio play. He's never been on television, he's never played SNL. He has, you know, maybe one magazine cover, national magazine cover in his past, that happened when he was, you know, 16, 17 years old. And yet, like the numbers on YouTube are bigger than Ariana Grande's, for instance, you know. So I think these audiences have just splintered. And there are a few people who permeate, right, personality-wise, you know, Megan Thee Stallion or whatever. But often the music is somehow divorced from that, right? Like, I think there's far more people who know these next-generation stars from being in commercials or, you know, Bad Bunny in a Corona commercial or whatever it is, then can sing one of their songs word for word. And I think that's fine. You know, I think that a lot of artists have found freedom in that, right? I keep coming back to artists who sing in Spanish primarily. Like, before I would be that to cross over, you had to change, right? You had to start singing in English, at least somewhat, like a Shakira or whatever it is. But now, that's no longer a prerequisite because your audience is going to find you on Spotify, they're going to come to your shows, they're going to buy merch. And even if you're not getting played on Z100 or, you know, Top 40 radio, you can still have as much of a footprint. It's just not in that same everybody knows the same 10 people way, you know?  [00:32:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think that the fact that someone like Bad Bunny has an album that's not in English, that has been on the top of the US charts for, what, 30%, 40% of the weeks of the year is incredible.  [00:32:24] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think that he is a celebrity, right, he is in films, he's in Bullet Train, he's in commercials, whatever. But I still think if you, you know, maybe it's different in New York, but if you went on the street and you asked, you know, your average 42-year-old white woman who Bad Bunny was, or to name a Bad Bunny song, it might not happen. But he's still selling out Yankee Stadium, you know, so it's this weird give and take of, like, what makes a hit these days, what makes a superstar. I think, you know, to bring it back, like, Lil Baby is in this boat too. Like, he's as close to, we have, I think, in the new school as a mainstream superstar, right, headlining festivals, you know, he's performing at the World Cup. He is sponsored, you know, Budweiser sponsors him. He's in, you know, all sorts of commercials, and he is really moved into that upper echelon. But he is still not a celebrity, right, in the way that a 50 Cent or a Jay-Z is to everyone. But he is to a certain generation. So it'll be interesting to see if he can sort of push past that last barrier and become a household name. But he doesn't need it, right? He doesn't have to be a household name to be the biggest rapper in the country.  [00:33:28] Dan Runcie: Right. I think the part that I'm really fascinated by, too, is how this separation of, yes, you can be someone that is more known for personality than music, how that will translate to the labels they're assigned to, which of course are in the business of people actually streaming and listening to your music, and they're not necessarily in the business of selling personality or selling brand deals, right? Like, they're not getting the Pepsi deals or they're not, like, that's Pepsi doing that, you know what I mean? So it'll be interesting to see what that looks like 'cause obviously I know that there are legal challenges and transgressions with maybe why someone like a Rod Wave or like an NBA YoungBoy may not be getting asked to perform at the Grammy's, right? Like, I think that's pretty easy to understand. Or even someone like a Summer Walker who I think that does very well from a streaming perspective, but I think, you know, personally, just isn't the personality type to want to be all out there, right?  [00:34:21] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah, has no interest in being a celebrity, but I think it's almost healthier, right, for some of these artists to be able to say, like, I've seen what happens on the fame side, and I don't want that part. I just want to make my music and play for my fans. Like, I think that's becoming maybe more and more of a possibility, where you can speak directly to your fans and not have to play the game, right, with the gatekeepers that might not actually be turning into anything at this point other than mind share. So, yeah, there's a lot of different kinds of stardom right now, and I think, like, the cult star, the, like, mass cult star, Tyler, the Creator, you know, the way he built up his career. You've written about this over so many years. Like, he doesn't have a smash hit, he doesn't have an Old Town Road, you know, or a Call Me Maybe, or whatever it is. He doesn't have that defining record or pop cultural moment. He just has years and years and years of solid growth, and people respond to that, and that you can pack arenas on that just as easily as you, and maybe even more effectively than you can on the back of one or two massive hits. [00:35:25] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely now, for sure. It'll be fascinating to watch and I'll be looking out for your continued reporting and thoughts on this, yeah, such a fascinating time in the industry. But Joe, it's been a pleasure, man. Hey, if anyone listening, if you are a fan of this podcast, believe me, this is a book. I can't recommend it enough. You'll enjoy it. But Joe, for the folks listening, where can they get Rap Capital?  [00:35:47] Joe Coscarelli: Rap Capital: An Atlanta Story, out October 18th, available wherever books are sold, Amazon, Barnes & Noble. Get an audiobook, should be out soon at your local bookstore. Yeah, hopefully, you'll be able to find it. Rap Capital. Thanks so much for having me.  [00:36:00] Dan Runcie: Awesome. Thanks for coming on and great work again.  [00:36:02] Joe Coscarelli: It was really fun. Thanks.  [00:36:03] Dan Runcie: Really good. [00:36:04] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. The dominance of Atlanta’s hip-hop scene has been discussed often, but not in the way Joe Coscarelli covered it in his new book, Rap Capital. Joe, a New York Times music reporter since 2015, spent four years and interviewed over 100 sources to get the contemporary story about Atlanta’s culture-defining music scene.


Characters are what move the story forward in Joe’s book, not discography, record sales, or cultural relevance. Lil Baby is featured prominently, as is his mom. Joe’s relationship with the hit rapper dates back to 2017 when Lil Baby was still a mixtape artist. Another recurring character is Quality Control Music’s Kevin “Coach K” Lee, who has deep-rooted ties with the city’s most well-known artists across eras.


Joe came onto the show to take us through the book’s journey — both for him to write it and the characters themselves. Here’s what we covered:


[2:40] How the book came together and finally clicked

[6:42] Role of Quality Control’s Coach K in Atlanta story

[10:11] Lasting effects of pandemic on music industry

[12:38] Which era of Atlanta hip-hop to focus on? 

[14:09] How streaming helped launch Atlanta rap into the mainstream

[16:10] Building trust with his sources despite racial differences

[18:10] Did Joe receive any pushback while reporting?

[20:19] Evolution key to Atlanta rap’s longevity 

[25:05] Adapting Rap Capital into a movie

[29:45] The crumbling of mainstream culture

 

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Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Joe Coscarelli, @joecoscarelli

 

 

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TRANSCRIPTION


[00:00:00] Joe Coscarelli:  I wanted to tell the story through characters, through people, not just, you know, you can run down the discography of all the amazing Atlanta musicians, right? You can go through the label history, read the reviews. But I always want to sort of pull back like, who's behind these people? Who's behind that person? So that's why I think, you know, mothers were huge, fathers, you know, friends, people who are around these artists growing up, I wanted them to be human characters, and I wanted the side characters to be as big of a part as the famous people 'cause I think they're as crucial to the equation. 

[00:00:30] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  


[00:00:58] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Joe Coscarelli. He's the author of Rap Capital: An Atlanta Story, and he's a culture reporter at The New York Times. And this book that he wrote, Rap Capital, I cannot recommend it enough. If you listen to this podcast, if you read the newsletter, if you watch any of the clips from our conversations or any of the posts on social media, this book is made for you. It's a street-level epic about the most consequential music culture today, Atlanta Rap. Joe put so much thought and care into how the book came together and tying everything from the Atlanta murders that happened decades ago and how that shaped the rap culture and the broader culture for black folks in Atlanta that we see today, and how that led to someone like Lil Baby, how that led to someone like Coach K having such an influence over hip hop music and the culture for decades now. This book was a great opportunity as well to have a trip down memory lane. A lot of us understand how influential Atlanta's been, but it was great to have it be told from a unique way. We also talked about broader trends happening in the streaming era right now in music, what a movie or film or TV show adaptation could look like for Rap Capital, and more. Here's our conversation. Hope you enjoy it. All right. Today we had Joe Coscarelli, the author of Rap Capital: An Atlanta story and read the book, really enjoyed it, and I got to ask because I was going through the synopsis and you said this was four years in the making, and I got to imagine with a book like this, there was some point when things started to click in that four-year process. When did you feel like things were coming together for you? 

[00:02:40] Joe Coscarelli: So I knew that there was a book in this stuff because I had done a handful of stories through my day job at The New York Times about Atlanta. I started this beat in late 2014. So., You know, my first couple years on the job, streaming was really taking over and specifically rap music and streaming. So I just found myself over and over again talking to the same group of people, right? I did a Migos Story, did a QC story that featured Lil Baby, one of his first interviews. I wrote about Drew Findling who's a lawyer in the book that's all over the news these days in various capacities. So I knew from those stories that there was something here. But I didn't know what it was going to be. I knew I wanted to not just tell a history, but follow characters in real-time as they tried to make it. That's something I always want to do in my work. You know, so my favorite art ever is like Hoop Dreams or a music documentary like Dig!, which follows two bands across a long period of time. One of them makes it, one of them doesn't make it. That's always what I want to bring to my reporting is this idea of a journey, right? And it doesn't even matter what the destination is, but following, specifically artists and musicians as they're trying to make something out of their lives, that to me, is just a timeless tale, right, of ambition and dreams, and so I knew I had a handful of characters that I wanted to go on this trip with, but I didn't really know how it tied into the broader story of Atlanta until a real marathon brunch interview with Lil Baby's mother, Lashawn. He was, you know, he and I had a rapport at that point. I'd interviewed him a few times. I did talk to a lot of people around him, and he was kind enough to set me up directly with his mom. And, you know, we sat down at a brunch place outside of Atlanta. And, you know, she said, I asked him, I asked Dominique, her son, we're like, what do I tell him? And he told her tell him everything. And she really did, her whole life story became part of the book, especially the foundation of the book, in the first part. And she had such an incredible life on her own. You know, I hope she writes a memoir someday. But when I learned really that she had been friends in school with an early victim of the Atlanta child murders, which were happening on the west side of Atlanta in the late seventies, early eighties, that she had a firsthand relationship to that historical event that I feel like really left its mark on the city. And she was open. She said it sort of affected the kind of mother that she became, and I think ultimately helped set Dominique, Lil Baby, on his path. And all of that could be traced to, like, something she went through as a kid that also spoke more broadly to Atlanta and the way it has developed socially, politically, culturally, especially Black Atlanta over the last 40, 50 years. So that was a real breakthrough moment for me, and I knew that I could start with her story, which in many ways was also the story of Atlanta in the last, you know, half a century. 

[00:05:30] Dan Runcie: And in reading that first piece, too, I could see how much care and thought was put into it from your perspective of going through what happened with those murders and then how that traces directly to someone like Lil Baby because it's hard to tell the story of Atlanta hip hop without doing all of that. And that's something that I think is often missing with so much of the discussion about Atlanta's run, which is why I feel like your book does stand as its own and is able to have a unique voice and perspective on this.

[00:05:58] Joe Coscarelli: I appreciate that. Yeah, I wanted to tell the story through characters, right, through people, not just, you know, you can run down the discography of all the amazing Atlanta musicians, right? You can go through the label history, read the reviews. But I always want to sort of pull back like, who's behind these people? Who's behind that person, you know? So that's why I think, you know, mothers were huge, fathers, you know, friends, people who are around these artists growing up, I wanted them to be human characters, and I wanted the side characters to be as big of a part as the famous people 'cause I think they're as crucial to the equation. 

[00:06:31] Dan Runcie: And of course, Lil Baby is one of the central characters. Another one is Coach K, who's one of the folks leading up Quality Control Music. Why was it important for him to be a central character in this too? 

[00:06:42] Joe Coscarelli: So Coach K is amazing because you can tell basically the last 30 years of rap music only through his career, right? When I said I wanted to be able to trace characters back through the years to artists and eras, like, Coach has seen it all, right? This is a man who was passing out Church fans to promote Pastor Troy and the congregation in the mid-nineties. Then he goes from that to representing all these producers who were, you know, crucial to founding the trap sound, someone like Drama Boy. And then he's working with Young Jeezy, right, as the Snowman mythology takes over and, you know, Def Jam South and the explosion of trap music on a national scale. Coach is behind that, right? You know, there's a moment I talk about in the book where they put the commercial on the radio right, in Atlanta, when the Jeezy's mixtapes, Trap or Die are coming out, right, and it's All Traps Closed today, like National Holiday, you know, like these are the things that Coach was cooking up behind the scenes. Then he works with Gucci Mane, right, who was blood rivals with Jeezy. And then that brings you up to the present day, and in 2013, he and P, his partner Pierre Thomas, they founded Quality Control, and then they have Migos, right, and then they have a Lil Yachty, and then they have Lil Baby. And through Coach K, you could talk about every single one of those careers and so many more that he was on the periphery of, even if he wasn't the main executive or manager involved. So I just think, you know, there's nobody more crucial to that ecosystem at this moment and through the last couple of decades than Kevin Lee, Coach K. 

[00:08:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think one of the things that stands out about their run, too, is that it wasn't just one artist and they faded and rose with that artist. And I think that's what we've seen a lot in the streaming era, frankly, from a lot of the record labels that have rose up. They had the runs, and even when one star started to fade from a group that was the hottest group in the moment, they had others that came through, and you're seeing that infrastructure. I feel like that's one thing that sets them apart from a lot of the others at this moment. 

[00:08:42] Joe Coscarelli: Totally. For them, it's all about artist development, right? Like, I remember being around them in the office, you know, in late 2017 and they were talking about whether they should have gone after Bhad Bhabie, you know, the Cash Me Outside girl. And like they would see little things pop up and think like, oh, should we get in on that viral moment? And then they would be like, No, that's not what we do. We build artists, we build careers, we build brands. And something that's so special about Quality Control and why they were able to, you know, be the backbone of this book is because they are invested in that sort of old school Motown-esque record business thing of I'm going to pluck someone who might not even think they're a musician, and we're going to believe in them, and we're going to back them, and we're going to build it from the ground up, right, and we're going to build it Atlanta first. Whereas so much in the viral marketing, streaming world of today is going top-down, right? It's a TikTok hit, then it's a major label deal, and this person's probably never even played a show before. They're still very invested in the grassroots bottom-up approach, and I think that's worked for them so many times now that the playbook is, you know, you can't deny it.

[00:09:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think that also that goes with something that I've seen you talk about even outside of the book as well, just some of the challenges that a lot of the artists and labels have right now in terms of now that the pandemic has, at least in this stage that we're in right now, there's still some lasting effects in terms of how that's shaping the charts, how that's shaping how music's released. What have you been seeing there from that perspective? 

[00:10:11] Joe Coscarelli: I mean, you know, a lot of people have been writing this year, yourself included, about the sort of stagnancy of the charts, how, you know, there aren't a lot of new breakout hits, especially in rap music, which had been so dominant for the last decade, essentially, as things started to move online and towards streaming. And I think you're right that a lot of that is pandemic hangover, right? Like, people were not outside like they used to be. Artists were not sort of feeling that energy, that creative energy. They were creating often, like, in a little bubble. I'm sure you get projects like a Beyoncé's RENAISSANCE that comes out of that pandemic moment and maybe speaks to some people's hopes and dreams for what the next few years will be, a little freer. But you don't have any chance for that sort of grassroots development, right? So we saw a lot of things come off of TikTok, but as I was getting at, like, those people, they haven't had the opportunity to touch their fans, right, to speak to the sort of ground swell of support. So you get a lot of things that feel fleeting and then you have something massive, right? Bad Bunny or like Morgan Wallen that's just like lodged up there at the top of the charts 'cause I think those guys had a fully formed thing going into the pandemic and were able to ride it through. You know, when you think about a lot of rap, especially regionally, that's bubbling now, there's a lot of drill, right? Like, you think of the stuff coming out of Brooklyn and the Bronx and that sound traveling all over the country. And I think, you know, since Pop Smoke, we haven't really had a sort of mainstream emissary for that sound. And it is such a local, such a hyper-local, such an underground phenomenon that you haven't really had someone translate it for the mainstream, you know, maybe that's going to be Ice Spice, maybe that's going to be Fivio Foreign, and like, you know, maybe it's going to be someone younger. But I think we're still waiting, right, for what that next wave, especially in rap, is going to be. You see the sort of sun may be setting on the trap era that's described in the book in the rise of drill as the default of what a rap song sounds like, but again, that hasn't really crossed over quite yet. 


[00:12:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's been fascinating just to see how the streaming era has shaped things, specifically with how much you focused on it in the book. And with a topic like Atlanta hip hop, there are likely so many sectors that you could have dove in on, and of course, Lil Baby being a central figure did lend itself to the streaming era. But how did you decide which era to focus on? Because there's so many time spans that you probably could have done and equally deep dive on.

[00:12:38] Joe Coscarelli: I always knew I wanted to tell a contemporary story, right? Like, I'm more of a reporter than I am a historian. So I'm not a musicologist, I'm not a music critic. You know, I've never really written criticism in terms of album reviews or show reviews, things like that. So I knew I wanted to be able to witness as much as I could firsthand and write about that because that's what I love to do in my work, getting back to this idea of, you know, being a fly on the wall for someone's journey, for someone's rise, for someone's fall even. So it was always going to be contemporary, right? And I feel like you have to tell a little bit of the history, right? You have to talk about Freaknik, you have to talk about OutKast, and the Dungeon Family, and LaFace Records, and So So Def to be able to get to this moment. But I think for me, like, I'm not someone who writes about music nostalgically. Sure, I love the stuff I grew up on, but I'd rather look forwards than backwards. And I think, character-wise, I just want to stay with the cutting edge, right? I want to see what's next. I want to see who's changing things, who's, you know, who's moving things forward. And that's just what I seek out in my life and in my job. So I think it was always going to be as contemporary as possible. 

[00:13:46] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. I think that streaming also allowed us to see more growth from the areas that I think, in a lot of ways, were a bit held back from gatekeepers controlling everything. And I think Atlanta's a perfect example of that, even though they had the massive rise, you know, nineties, early 2000s, it went to another level this past decade. 

[00:14:09] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah. And I think you know that sort of in-between time, right, when you think about post-Napster and file sharing, post-CD crash in the early 2000s. But pre-streaming, like, a lot of what became the go-to playbook for streaming was happening in the underground mixtape scene, especially in Atlanta and in the South. And you think of things like DatPiff or you know, sites like that where free mix tapes were coming out and it was all about quantity, right, in a way that really set these artists for the streaming era, right? You think of Lil Wayne's mixtape run, Gucci's mixtape run, and then Future's mixtape run. It was just about music, music, music, music. And so Migos sort of got in at the tail end of that and they released, you know, whatever it is, 5, 7, 10 mixtapes before they put out a proper debut album. And then when they finally hit with something like Culture, their second proper full length, the world had finally caught up to them and the rest of the Atlanta artists. And yet there's this whole group in between that gets left behind, right? Like, I'd love to read a book about Travis Porter and Rich Kidz and you know, these Atlanta rappers who are really, like, laying the groundwork for a lot of this, even like Rocko or you know, early career Future. Like these guys, I think if they would've come out once Spotify was as big as it is now, they would've been huge national and international stars. And instead, they sort of get caught in this in-between zone. So, you know, I think, I love to see when art lines up with the technology of the moment, and I think these Atlanta rappers were in the perfect place at the perfect time to take advantage of that explosion. 

[00:15:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I agree. And then even reading it too, and thinking about this conversation we're having, so much of you framing this as you're a reporter, you're capturing what's happening contemporary, and given the insights and the things that people are sharing with you, the amount of trust that you were needed to develop with them, and we talked a lot about the aspect of race and how that plays in. How did you navigate that yourself as a white man and trying to tell this black story and making sure that you're capturing it in the best way possible? 

[00:16:10] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah. You know, obviously, I thought about this a lot in the reporting, in the conception of the book, and certainly in the writing and the editing. I think the job of any journalist, right, is to be like a respectful, humble, open-minded guest in other people's worlds, right, and to be well aware of what you know and what you don't know. Like, that goes for when I'm interviewing a female artist, a trans songwriter, reggaeton star. I think, like, to navigate spaces where you're not an insider, like, it's best to come prepared and engaged and curious. Like, I did my research, I knew what I was talking about to the extent that I could, but I also was eager to, like, defer to people who are the experts, right? I made sure that everyone from artists to managers, family members, like, they knew that I wanted to take whatever platform I had with the book and with my work at The New York Times, and sort of take their work seriously to shine a light on it, and recognize it as important as it is, right, this cultural product that has this immense influence and impact. So I wanted to really preserve these moments to the best of my ability for the history books. And I think that my subjects got that right away. You know, I don't think it took a lot of time for them to spend with me to see that I was really dedicated in that mission, that I was going to be respectful of their time and space, interested in the work that they were doing and the lives they were living. And then, like, your credibility travels, right? One person can vouch for you with another, you know, with a collaborator, with a family member. And I just wanted to just defer to them and their experiences. And I think I took that with me in the writing of the book. You know, of course, there's analysis, there's observation, but I really wanted people to speak for themselves. The book is very quote-heavy. I really wanted to capture people as they are, do an accurate portrayal of what it is they've been through. Hopefully, I think the quality speaks for itself. But I wanted to, you know, give these people whatever, spotlight, whatever platform I can offer. And then tell the truest version of how they relate it to me. 

[00:18:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's the best and the most fair way to do it. Along the way though, did you receive any pushback or any type of challenge as you were doing this?

[00:18:10] Joe Coscarelli: There's very little. I think I'm fortunate enough to, you know, have an institution like The New York Times behind me. I think, you know, people take that name seriously. It opens a lot of doors, whether or not I was a good reporter. And I think when you can open the door and then when you show up, and you're thorough, and you're accurate, you know, I'd written a lot about these people before the book, I think that the trust just grows and grows. And I was also finding people really at the beginning, right, of their careers in a lot of cases, like Lil Baby, like, you know, he may not be able to spell my last name, but he knows that I was that guy with him listening to his mixtape tracks as they were deciding what was going to be on, you know, his second, his third mixtape. And he's seen me for years along the way, supporting that journey, you know, engaging with the work, like I said. And, you know, meeting people at the beginnings of things, they remember, right, who was there with them and who was supportive and who got it. And I think that that went a long way for me with my subjects. I think the other thing is like, you know, in the music industry, whether it's rap, you know, southern rap, regional street rap, like, there's always a white guy around, you know. I talk about this in the book, whether it's a dj, a producer, a manager, you know, this is a trope, this is a tradition. And I think, you know, sometimes it goes well, sometimes it goes poorly. But I try to always be above board and respectful in my dealings. But I think, you know, when you're riding around in Atlanta, with a rapper and you look like I do, you know, someone's just going to assume that I'm either from the label or I'm from The FADER, you know, something like that.

[00:19:41] Dan Runcie: Exactly. Exactly. But no, I think that, given this, as you mentioned, yeah, there's plenty of precedent for people having done this before. And yeah, I think the care that you bring into it with the book is clearly shown. And thinking about that, as you mentioned, just you driving around Atlanta, getting a feel for the vibe of the city and everything else, spending so much time there, how do you feel about the run that Atlanta's currently having and how this will continue? Because I think that like anything, people are always thinking of what is the next thing. How long does this last? We, of course, saw the east and west coast rise and fall. What do you feel, like, the next decade or so it looks like for Atlanta in hip hop? 

[00:20:19] Joe Coscarelli: I mean, the thing that's been so amazing about Atlanta, the reason it can be the subject of a book like this is because every time you would think it was over, they would just come up with a new thing, right? So like, you know, you think back to OutKast, you think back to So So Def, you know, you have the run of Ludacris, who becomes, you know, this crazy mainstream success story, you have Gucci, and Jeezy, and the rise of trap, and T.I., you know, becomes this huge crossover star. And then you think that that's over. And then you have crunk, and you have Lil Jon, and you think that's over. And then here's comes Waka Flocka Flame coming up from under Gucci, you know. Even someone like Gucci, he's helped birth three, four micro-generations of Atlanta rappers. And, you know, someone like Young Thug comes out and you're like, oh, like, this is too eccentric. This is never going to happen, right? Like, this is only for the real heads, only for people listening underground, and then all of a sudden he's on SNL, right? And he's in Vogue. And just over and over again, you have these guys sort of breakthrough with something that seems like it's too outre. It's too avant-garde. You know, even Migos and their sort of like punk repetition, you know, people heard Bando and said like, oh, this is annoying. Like, this is going nowhere, and then all of a sudden the whole radio sounds like that. So there's a part of me that does feel like, you know, this book is sort of capturing a contained era, right? The first 7, 8, 9, 10 years of streaming and the intensity and the tragedy of the YSL indictment. Like, maybe that's a hard stop to this era. But I think you can never count Atlanta out, right? So like, you might not know exactly what's coming next, but there's always more kids like this, like coming up with something new, taking what came before them, putting like a twist on it, and then all of a sudden it's on the radio, right? So like, even me, like, I see like a real post-Playboy Cardi, you know, sort of experimental streak in a lot of these rappers. I think there's some drill influence coming into Atlanta. And I don't think the next generation has really revealed itself yet, but I'm very confident that based on the infrastructure that's there, based on the amount of talent, the artists who call it home, both from there and not, like, I really think there'll be another wave, and there's just always another wave, in a way that even New York, you know, has struggled to bring the championship belt back that many times, you know? But I think, you know, Atlanta's regeneration has always been sort of its calling card. 

[00:22:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah, and I think one of the things that stands out about Atlanta too, and this is a bit of a sad way to frame it, but they've been able to withstand the jail time or the charges that happen for a lot of the rappers that are in their prime. Of course, we saw that happened with the West Coast in the nineties, Death Row, and you know, everything with Suge Knight and Tupac. I think we saw that a bit with the East Coast as well. But Atlanta, unfortunately, whether it's T.I., Gucci, like, a lot of them have served time, but the city still has been able to still thrive in hip hop because there was always someone else coming through. And I think even more recently now with Gunna and Thug, dealing with the RICO case and everything, who knows how that'll end up. But I think the difference for them and the city now as opposed to other areas is that even if you know, let's say that they may not be able to make music or this hinders their rise, there are other folks that can continue to have the city continue to rise up in the music around it.

[00:23:38] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah, and I think so much of this music, right, the music that's come out of Atlanta in the last 30 years, like, it comes from struggle, right? It comes from necessity. And the things you're describing, whether it's, you know, violence, death, you know, the criminal justice, the weight of the state on these young black men, mostly. And they do tend to be men, especially in this scene, though that's changing too. You know, I think when people feel backed into a corner, like, art can come from that, right? So whether it's YSL directly or it's the people, they influence, the people from their neighborhood who are going to fill that void. I think, you know, the people hear the urgency in this music, right? They hear the, whether it's the joy or the pain, you know, there's a lot of feeling here. And I think, yeah, the tough times, people bounce back out of that. And trap is so much about that in general that I think it'll just continue to happen.

[00:24:29] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And in the beginning of this conversation, you talked a little bit about how Hoop Dreams and that type of story was definitely an inspiration, and of course, that was nearly a three-hour long movie, if I remember correctly, the timeframe there. In terms of this book, already reading it, maybe through the first few chapters, I was like, oh, this is going to get turned into some type of TV or series or a movie or something like that. I could already see that happening. Was that in the back of your mind as you were thinking about what this could look like? Obviously, I'm sure you're so focused on the book, but were you, as you're thinking about the inspiration, were you thinking about multimedia adaptations? 

[00:25:05] Joe Coscarelli: You know, I wasn't as much as I should have been, right? Otherwise, I would've been recording my audio better to turn it into a podcast, to then turn it into a doc series or whatever it is. I'm very much like a print writer, right? Like, I'm a newspaper reporter. I don't even think about images really as much as I think about words. And yet, like, so much of my influence, like, you know, Hoop Dreams was always the sort of the north star of this, but, like, I'm a huge consumer of television and film and stories of all kinds. So I knew I wanted the scope of the story to at least have that potential, right, to feel grand, to feel cinematic, to feel like it was about a time and a place and characters, which I think, you know, is often easier to do in a visual medium. So I had it in mind. But I was really too focused on just getting the words down on the page and getting the material I needed. I hope you're right and that now that this thing exists, right, this big book, like you said, Hoop Dreams is a three-hour movie, and this is like the book equivalent of a three-hour movie. It's almost 400 pages, so it has that sort of epic quality. And I think there is, you know, hopefully, more to mine there, not necessarily in recreating the stories that I've already captured, but in that essence, in that spirit and the way that Atlanta sort of goes in waves and goes in cycles. I hope there's a way to be able to capture that visually as well. 

[00:26:23] Dan Runcie: If you could handpick any director you would want to lead a project on Rap Capital who'd you pick?

[00:26:29] Joe Coscarelli: Oh, man. All time. I mean, that's a tough one. Look, I mean, what Donald Glover and Hiro Murai have done with their Atlanta series, you know, it's much more surreal than this. It's fictionalized, but the parts of it that are based, you know, more on earth and more in the music industry, like, are just captured so well. I think, Hiro, as a director specifically, was able to, you know, all the aerial shots, like the highways, the roads, the woods, like that version of Atlanta is really seared in my mind. And, you know, I know they've done their version, but I think there's more to do. But then there's like the younger generation, right, of video directors and stuff that I'm just waiting to be able to see their worlds on a larger scale, you know, someone like Spike Jordan or someone like Daps who have their hand in, or, you know, Keemotion, like people who have their hand in a lot of the visual representation of this music on YouTube. And I think I would love to see what they would do, right? I would love to see the present-day music video directors' version of Belly, right, in Atlanta. Like, Belly, one of my favorite, you know, top five favorite movies ever, and has that sort of that music video quality to it in a lot of ways, but then blown up for the big screen. Like, I want some of those guys to have a canvas like that to paint on. 

[00:27:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good answer because I think that, especially the Hiro one, because I think that Atlanta, as a TV show, does capture so much of it. And you're right, the episodes that are set in earth and not the surreal, you know, messages. But yeah, the ones that are set in earth do capture a lot of the intricacies about the music industry and I think the reality, which is I think something you do in the book as well. I also think that some of the newer music video directors, too, just given the world that they're capturing, do so much of that well, too, and I think having that is key because, of course, some of the more established names have a picture of Atlanta, but it may be more relevant to that, you know, LaFace era of Atlanta, which, while very impactful, isn't what your book is about.

[00:28:27] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah, I think there's a new wave, right, and the people who are responsible for the iconography of this wave. You know, even the crazy run of Young Thug videos, I think the director Be EL Be, is that his name? You know, just super, super surreal sort of dream world stuff. But I want to see what those guys can do with the present day, given the budgets, you know, if they were given a Hollywood-size budget instead of a rap video-size budget.

[00:28:53] Dan Runcie: Well, I will definitely be keeping an eye out for that because I feel like it's one of these inevitable things and it'll be fun to watch for sure. 

[00:28:59] Joe Coscarelli: Fingers crossed. Yeah. 

[00:29:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. All right. Well, before we wrap things up, I do want to go back to one thing about the music industry because you had tweeted something out, I forget how long ago it was, but Punch from TDE had, shoutout to Punch, he had asked a question about when did the personalities become bigger than the music, and you had responded and said, well, there's some nuance here. Look at someone like Rod Wave who is, you know, selling multiple times more than someone like Megan Thee Stallion. And I think Rod Wave is someone that, unless you know the music, you're not necessarily tapping in, versus Megan who's someone that's performing at all the big award shows and has a lot of the big features, how do you make sense of that dichotomy between those examples and maybe what it says about where we are in the industry and how to make sense of it?

[00:29:45] Joe Coscarelli: I think there's just been a real crumbling of the monoculture, right? Like, before. You would expect, if somebody had a number one hit, if somebody had a number one album, everyone would know who they were, right? I would know, you would know, your mom would know, my grandma would know. They would at least have some vague idea, right, of who Shania Twain was, or you know, Katy Perry, whoever it may be, even Ed Sheeran, to name one of the last, I think, monoculture stars. Whereas today everything is so fragmented, right? You write about this in your newsletter, whether it's streaming TV or movies or music, like, everything finds its own little audience, and it's sometimes it's not even that little, you know. Jon Caramanica, the pop music critic here at the Times, and I collaborated on a piece, you know, I think probably almost four years ago at this point, saying like, your old idea of a pop star is dead. Your new idea of a pop star is, you know, it's Bad Bunny. It's BTS. It's Rosalía who's not selling a ton of albums, but can pack out two shows at Radio City Music Hall without saying a word of English, basically, you know. And people are finding these artists on their own, right? You think of NBA YoungBoy, another one who's like, basically, the biggest rap artist we've had over the last five years, and he gets no radio play. He's never been on television, he's never played SNL. He has, you know, maybe one magazine cover, national magazine cover in his past, that happened when he was, you know, 16, 17 years old. And yet, like the numbers on YouTube are bigger than Ariana Grande's, for instance, you know. So I think these audiences have just splintered. And there are a few people who permeate, right, personality-wise, you know, Megan Thee Stallion or whatever. But often the music is somehow divorced from that, right? Like, I think there's far more people who know these next-generation stars from being in commercials or, you know, Bad Bunny in a Corona commercial or whatever it is, then can sing one of their songs word for word. And I think that's fine. You know, I think that a lot of artists have found freedom in that, right? I keep coming back to artists who sing in Spanish primarily. Like, before I would be that to cross over, you had to change, right? You had to start singing in English, at least somewhat, like a Shakira or whatever it is. But now, that's no longer a prerequisite because your audience is going to find you on Spotify, they're going to come to your shows, they're going to buy merch. And even if you're not getting played on Z100 or, you know, Top 40 radio, you can still have as much of a footprint. It's just not in that same everybody knows the same 10 people way, you know? 

[00:32:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think that the fact that someone like Bad Bunny has an album that's not in English, that has been on the top of the US charts for, what, 30%, 40% of the weeks of the year is incredible. 

[00:32:24] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think that he is a celebrity, right, he is in films, he's in Bullet Train, he's in commercials, whatever. But I still think if you, you know, maybe it's different in New York, but if you went on the street and you asked, you know, your average 42-year-old white woman who Bad Bunny was, or to name a Bad Bunny song, it might not happen. But he's still selling out Yankee Stadium, you know, so it's this weird give and take of, like, what makes a hit these days, what makes a superstar. I think, you know, to bring it back, like, Lil Baby is in this boat too. Like, he's as close to, we have, I think, in the new school as a mainstream superstar, right, headlining festivals, you know, he's performing at the World Cup. He is sponsored, you know, Budweiser sponsors him. He's in, you know, all sorts of commercials, and he is really moved into that upper echelon. But he is still not a celebrity, right, in the way that a 50 Cent or a Jay-Z is to everyone. But he is to a certain generation. So it'll be interesting to see if he can sort of push past that last barrier and become a household name. But he doesn't need it, right? He doesn't have to be a household name to be the biggest rapper in the country. 

[00:33:28] Dan Runcie: Right. I think the part that I'm really fascinated by, too, is how this separation of, yes, you can be someone that is more known for personality than music, how that will translate to the labels they're assigned to, which of course are in the business of people actually streaming and listening to your music, and they're not necessarily in the business of selling personality or selling brand deals, right? Like, they're not getting the Pepsi deals or they're not, like, that's Pepsi doing that, you know what I mean? So it'll be interesting to see what that looks like 'cause obviously I know that there are legal challenges and transgressions with maybe why someone like a Rod Wave or like an NBA YoungBoy may not be getting asked to perform at the Grammy's, right? Like, I think that's pretty easy to understand. Or even someone like a Summer Walker who I think that does very well from a streaming perspective, but I think, you know, personally, just isn't the personality type to want to be all out there, right? 

[00:34:21] Joe Coscarelli: Yeah, has no interest in being a celebrity, but I think it's almost healthier, right, for some of these artists to be able to say, like, I've seen what happens on the fame side, and I don't want that part. I just want to make my music and play for my fans. Like, I think that's becoming maybe more and more of a possibility, where you can speak directly to your fans and not have to play the game, right, with the gatekeepers that might not actually be turning into anything at this point other than mind share. So, yeah, there's a lot of different kinds of stardom right now, and I think, like, the cult star, the, like, mass cult star, Tyler, the Creator, you know, the way he built up his career. You've written about this over so many years. Like, he doesn't have a smash hit, he doesn't have an Old Town Road, you know, or a Call Me Maybe, or whatever it is. He doesn't have that defining record or pop cultural moment. He just has years and years and years of solid growth, and people respond to that, and that you can pack arenas on that just as easily as you, and maybe even more effectively than you can on the back of one or two massive hits.

[00:35:25] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely now, for sure. It'll be fascinating to watch and I'll be looking out for your continued reporting and thoughts on this, yeah, such a fascinating time in the industry. But Joe, it's been a pleasure, man. Hey, if anyone listening, if you are a fan of this podcast, believe me, this is a book. I can't recommend it enough. You'll enjoy it. But Joe, for the folks listening, where can they get Rap Capital? 

[00:35:47] Joe Coscarelli: Rap Capital: An Atlanta Story, out October 18th, available wherever books are sold, Amazon, Barnes & Noble. Get an audiobook, should be out soon at your local bookstore. Yeah, hopefully, you'll be able to find it. Rap Capital. Thanks so much for having me. 

[00:36:00] Dan Runcie: Awesome. Thanks for coming on and great work again. 

[00:36:02] Joe Coscarelli: It was really fun. Thanks. 

[00:36:03] Dan Runcie: Really good.

[00:36:04] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.



]]> 2199 no Mona Scott-Young’s Influence On Culture Goes Beyond Love & Hip Hop https://www.trapital.com/podcast Mona Scott-Young is best-known for producing the Love & Hip Hop reality TV series on VH1. The franchise debuted in 2011 has remained a TV fixture today through industry-wide changes with TV and around 30 different seasons aired. However, it’s Young’s ability to permeate hip-hop culture into the mainstream that’s been the true calling card. Before Love & Hip Hop, Mona managed talent in music. She was a co-founder for Violator with the late Chris Lighty, and was behind memorable brand partnerships such as Busta Rhymes and Courvoisier, Missy Elliott with Reebok and Adidas, and the landmark 50 Cent-Vitamin Water deal, among many others back then, such deals were harder to cut than nowadays. It was during this time in music when Mona was introduced to the fascinating lives of hip-hop wives, which led to Love & Hip-Hop’s creation. But Mona, who also founded and runs Monami Productions,has more stories to tell about the hip-hop industry. She’s teaming up with another well-known TV producer, 50 Cent, on “Hip-Hop Homicides,” which debuts later this year. Mona’s influence on the world of hip-hop reaches further than most realize. To hear how Mona moved the culture forward, you’ll want to listen to our show. Here’s everything we covered:  [2:59] How does Love & Hip Hop stay fresh? [4:45] Biggest challenge for reality TV in social-media age [7:55] Love & Hip Hop success stories  [9:07] Influencing other hip-hop-related series [11:15] Increased programming around hip-hop [14:21] How reality shows fit into today’s streaming landscape [19:00] Mona’s career in music and artist-brand deals [24:52] Brand deals for Love & Hip Hop talent  [28:27] Network pressures to expand the Love & Hip Hop brand [30:06] Scrutiny on the show’s content [34:01] Future of Love & Hip Hop  Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Mona Scott-Youngs, @monascottyoung     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   HitPiece is your place to discover new NFTs from your favorite artists. Learn more today at hitpiece.com   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Mona Scott-Young: These were women who were living in the shadows of the men in their lives who had achieved all the fame and the success, and how were these women leveraging the relationships that they were in and the things that they were doing to get to where they wanted to be in life. So I always framed it as an opportunity, so you're getting these stories, right? All of the heartbreak and all of the joy, the highs, the lows. But in exchange, these women are also getting this platform where they can build their brands, build their businesses.  [00:00:39] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:59] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is the producer and entrepreneur, Mona Scott-Young. She is the mind behind Hop. She also was a music executive for a number of years, worked with Violator and put together some of the more memorable hip hop branding deals of the time, such as Busta Rhymes in Courvoisier and Mountain Dew. She worked with 50 Cent, Vitaminwater as well, and a bunch of other deals, and she's been someone I've wanted to have on this podcast for a while. We talked a lot about the business of TV and how things have changed specifically for a docu-follow show like Love & Hip Hop. This is a show that has been going on for more than 10 seasons now and has had different franchises, different spinoffs, and has had plenty of copycats as well. So we talked about the business of the show, what it's been like producing it, the platform that a lot of the talent have had that have come up from it, one of the most famous examples is Cardi B and what she'd been able to do after the show, but we also talked about some of the other talents that's come from the show as well. We also talked about how Love & Hip Hop is positioned and some of the perception that it's had, whether or not that perception is more so chatter and criticism, or has that actually made a material impact on the business of what Mona's doing. She also talked a little bit about some of the other projects coming up from Monami Entertainment such as Hip Hop Homicides and a whole lot more. It was great to talk to her, get her perspective on streaming, the industry, where things are, and overall the brand deals that are happening in hip hop. Great conversation. Glad we finally had her on. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Mona Scott-Young  [00:02:38] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we are joined by the one and only Mona Scott-Young, producer and one of the great folks in media and entertainment today. And I feel like for you, you've been more than a decade in with Love & Hip Hop, you have several spinoffs. How do you keep things fresh? How do you keep everything coming year after year? [00:02:59] Mona Scott-Young: You know, I always say it's about reinvention. It's about evolution, making sure that you are constantly growing, whether it's me as a producer and applying that to the franchise. You know, what's great about the way that that concept was built is it's that it was a world, right? So we could always populate different folks in and out of that world. So it gave us an opportunity to, you know, cycle in new talent who had fresh stories to tell. And I think that has a lot to do with the staying power and the longevity of the franchise.  [00:03:31] Dan Runcie: I think the other thing that's impressive is just how the show's been able to stay consistent with all of the changes that are happening with media and streaming and anything else. Have there been any big shifts that you've made from that perspective as things that have continued to move, whether it's from cable to streaming networks to where things are now?  [00:03:50] Mona Scott-Young: You know, not necessarily in terms of the concept, right? 'Cause like I said, the stories are what keeps it fresh and different, but we definitely loosened up our shooting style a lot and we became, you know, more free-flowing, I think to be in line with the fact that folks were able to tune into social media and see things happening in real-time. You know, when we first started the franchise, a big part of it was this very soap opera-like feeling that it had. And over the course of the years, we loosened that up a little bit just so that the stories were able to, you know, track a little more closely to what was happening in real-time in their lives. [00:04:30] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Do you feel as if social media changed the overall feel and the flow of the show itself? I know that's something that, I've talked to a lot of people on TV and they felt like they've noticed that. How are some of the ways you feel like social media either impacted things for Love & Hip Hop? [00:04:45] Mona Scott-Young: Absolutely. You know, because there's such a lead time with production and editing. It's really hard to stay up with the fact that these folks are out here living their lives on social media, and so the audience gets a chance to just tune into their IG lives and get a blow-by-blow of everything that's happening in their lives so that by the time our show is edited, it's hard for it to feel fresh, right, because they're like, oh, I saw that happen months ago. And so it's finding those other stories, getting the cast to keep things exclusively for the show so that there's this sense of discovery for the audience. 'Cause I think that's the biggest hurdle for reality TV is the fact that, you know, everyone has access to their audience and can broadcast their lives, you know, on a minute-by-minute basis. And so how do we offer something that's different, something that's entertaining, something that feels fresh and current and relevant? I think that's the biggest challenge.  [00:05:44] Dan Runcie: Have you noticed that shift with social media at all changed based on what platform has been popular at the time? Of course, the show is popular as ever in Black Twitter, but how about with TikTok now with things picking up there? Have there been any unique things you've seen with the reception there?  [00:05:58] Mona Scott-Young: Not necessarily. You know what, I'm not a big TikToker. I don't know if I should say that. I probably just aged myself a thousand years, but, you know, I haven't really noticed a big shift based on TikTok viewership. I know that, you know, or usership, 'cause I know that that's mainly what music, dance, or are they doing skits on there as well? [00:06:21] Dan Runcie: I mean, they're doing skits. I feel like with the show like yours though, it's unique because I think that you're reaching a bit of an older demographic than the folks that are really in TikTok. But like with all these social media platforms, they do tend to scale up at some point, right? So the younger community...  [00:06:37] Mona Scott-Young: We'll see what happens, yeah. One of the biggest things that we saw happen on social media were the reenactments, right, the recreations where you had all of these social influencers and social comedians doing their takes on the scenes from the show, and that gave it a whole another life. And I think, you know, what people enjoy about the show is the cast's ability to be self-deprecating. They make fun of themselves, so sometimes you'd see them participating in those skits. You know, social media has always played a huge role in the success of the franchise, even dating back to the very early days where we gave bloggers and the video influencers, the social media influencers, the sneak peek at the show so that they kind of had first dibs. And the immediacy of, you know, them talking about the show and having that engagement was a big part of the success of the show. So I love it when I continuously see the show showing up in different ways on social media. [00:07:34] Dan Runcie: Can we also talk about how social media has been a big piece for how a lot of the folks on the show can use Love & Hip Hop as a platform to do other things? I think Cardi B, of course, has been one of the hallmark examples of this. But what are some of the other folks that stick out for you in terms of, yes, what they were able to do at this show, and then social media took them to another level? [00:07:55] Mona Scott-Young: I mean, if you think about everyone who's like started a business, right? Most of their products, they're hawking them online and via social media. So, you know, whether it's the waist trainers, the hair clips, makeup, all of that stuff kind of came from seeing it on the show and then watching them blow it up. And then you have some of it that was reverse engineered like Cardi was huge on social media already as kind of a, you know, influencer, comic, and having an opportunity to be on the show expanded her audience. But I just think seeing those two things come together, that was probably the biggest example of how, you know, social media and linear TV worked really well to really expand her brand. [00:08:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah, especially with her specifically. I mean, she's giving you the shoutouts in the songs, too, but just seeing what she's able to do creatively with the brand, and I think that's something that's been unique that we've seen with reality TV overall. But I feel like with your type of show specifically because you do get some of those characters that come back, you have some that go off and do their own thing, you see a bit more of that variety than some of these other shows where it's like one season that you may never see that person in the season.  [00:09:07] Mona Scott-Young: That's very, very true. I mean, one of the big mandates for me, 'cause a lot of these shows were just about chronicling lives, right? This is about your life. For me, it was always, this is an opportunity, right? If you think about at its core, these were women, or the core of the original concept, these were women who were living in the shadows, right, of the men in their lives who had achieved all the fame and the success, and how were these women leveraging the relationships that they were in and the things that they were doing to get to where they wanted to be in life. So I always framed it as an opportunity, and what I love to see is how, you know, they go out and they take advantage of that opportunity. So you're getting these stories, right? All of the heartbreak and all of the, you know, the joy, the highs, the lows. But in exchange, these women are also getting this platform where they can build their brands, build their businesses. Everyone from Yandy, right, who went from being behind the scenes to having her Yelle Skin Care and all of her other numerous businesses that she has. Cardi with her music, who, you know, was doing her music, didn't have that massive success, had a huge following on social media, but was able to kind of connect the dots in a way that allowed for her music to take off. Oh, God, Rasheeda, Karlie Redd, and K. Michelle, and when I think about all of the success stories with their businesses and their brands, that for me is the big differentiator for Love & Hip Hop 'cause I think these ladies understood the assignment, understood that this was an opportunity, and took advantage of it to, you know, level up in their lives and what they were doing with their business. [00:10:50] Dan Runcie: And I feel like I've seen your own career and your own opportunities take a similar evolution as the show has continued to have its own success, and you had started your production company years ago, but I think right now we've just seen more and more opportunity for creators like yourself that have been able to establish their franchises and just have the success and have different networks have interest in them year over year. What has that process been like?  [00:11:15] Mona Scott-Young: Yeah. You know, it's the most gratifying thing because I think, you know, the first to market with anything always is a double-edged sword, right? So Love & Hip Hop was the first docu-follow of its kind that focused on the genre of hip hop and the way that we did, and really gave a different look and feel to what we're used to seeing on reality television. And what we've seen since then, I think, are a lot of shows that I would say Love & Hip Hop paved the way for. You know, shoutout to shows like Power and, you know, Empire and even Rap Sh!t that Issa Rae has on right now. I look at that and I go, yeah, the fact that, you know, we're now giving space to scripted shows that are set in this world and shining a light on the culture and, you know, the women in the culture specifically, if you look at Rap Sh!t, I feel like that is a direct descendant of what Love & Hip Hop was able to pave the way for. [00:12:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, those are good examples. I feel like that moment in the end of the 2010s, you started to see more shows, I feel like that whole Empire run and a bunch of shows around that, we're able to see a lot of success there. I also feel like around this time too, especially in the most recent years, we've also seen a lot more studios and a lot more folks get different opportunities, whether it's folks getting these overall deals from the streaming services or some others getting big interest from private equity firms that are trying to invest in these studios. As someone that runs a studio, runs a reduction company yourself, how do you view that landscape, and how do those opportunities come up for different folks? [00:12:55] Mona Scott-Young: I mean, I think it's fantastic. I think it's a wonderful thing. I still don't think there's enough of it happening. I always say that during, you know, Black Lives Matter, when we were at the height of that movement, there were so many overtures, right? So many calls were made and people wanting to be in business. And I do believe you're seeing an increased number of programming that caters to our audience and opportunities for those content creators. But I also, you know, hope that this trend continues, and I hope this isn't kind of a performative gesture in order to check a box or to satisfy, you know, their contribution. But, I think it's great. I think the more that audiences understand that their viewership matters, that their support matters, and that's really what is going to dictate it at the end of the day, because we can, you know, get those dollars in and we can get those opportunities. But if those eyeballs don't tune in, then you know, we're not going to continue to see the programming and have those opportunities. So I think it's, you know, nice to see it happen. I'm very interested in seeing what the staying power is for this and how those opportunities increase and not, you know, level out.  [00:14:10] Dan Runcie: Do you think that there is any sort of fear or thought that folks should have about the staying power of those eyeballs? Like, does some of these things seem a bit more fleeting in nature?  [00:14:21] Mona Scott-Young: I don't think we get the same commitment to staying with something and giving it an opportunity to grow, right? It's like if we don't have instant success, if we don't get those eyeballs instantly, the idea is, oh, this audience is in here moving on to the next, right? I just think that sometimes it takes a minute for a show to catch on. I don't ever think the same marketing dollars are put towards the programming so that folks even have the awareness level that's usually left to us to figure out what are the ways that we're going to bring visibility to, you know, our shows and make sure that, you know, folks know that we exist. Again, I just hope that the commitment extends beyond just the initial overture and that there is promotions and marketing and commitment to seeing these shows grow and find their audience like every other programming has an opportunity to do.  [00:15:18] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. It also makes me think about whether or not there are specific differences as well for folks who are making shows, whether it's something for streaming versus something for cable TV or for a network specifically, because I know that with your shows and some of the others that are doing reality things, most of your audience still is, at least from my understanding, still tuning in through cable and watching it through those areas, but. Even though we started to see some reality TV that's been exclusive to these streaming services, it still hasn't been to the same extent that we see, like whether it's with Love & Hip Hop on VH1 or some of the other services. Why do you think that is? And do you think that'll change at all?  [00:15:59] Mona Scott-Young: I think the formats have to evolve in order for us to find the right formula to live on the streamers. You know, those shows are about repeatability and about, you know, the binge-watching and, you know, for reality, there's something about that appointment television that tuning in week in and week out that I think plays into the idea that what is happening is happening to some extent in real-time, even though we know it isn't, and the ability to, you know, watch it all. I think it's just a different, it's a shift. It's a paradigm shift, and we have to figure out what the right formula is, what the right content play is to work in that arena. So there's a lot of conversations around that and everybody's trying to find like, kind of what is it right now what you're seeing on streamers are. Formatted docu-series, like real estate shows and, you know, those kind of, I'm trying to think of what are some of the docu-follows that are living. Probably the Kardashian show in Hulu is an example, right? That's kind of a beast of a different nature, right? There's a rabid audience there for the Kardashian clan that I think will watch no matter where it exists. So, you know, I'd love to see more conventional docu-follow find its way to the streamers. I think there's going to have to be a little bit of a fine-tuning in what that format looks like for it to really work there. [00:17:29] Dan Runcie: Right. Because it isn't necessarily a binge release. I don't feel like that necessarily makes sense if you're trying to follow things. I think back to, it was Rhythm + Flow. This is almost three years ago at this point, but the show, you know, the competition show Cardi B and Chance and T.I., I think they did every week or every other week for three block episode of release, and I felt like that was okay. It wasn't too long that felt like it didn't make sense for Netflix, but it was just enough to capture some momentum. And I think back about that, I was like, Okay.  [00:17:58] Mona Scott-Young: They're doing that as a format, right? It's a competition show. So those work. The competition shows work. The format shows, the real estate, the cooking, the anything, it's just that finding that right rhythm, that right lane for docu-follow is going to be the challenge. [00:18:14] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. That's your point. And then, of course, the Kardashians may be a bit of an outlier just given the size of them, but you are, in a lot of ways, bringing either new stars or people who haven't necessarily had their headlines everywhere in quite some time to the stage, and that's a little bit of a different... [00:18:31] Mona Scott-Young: That's a little bit of a different, yeah, a little bit of a different proposition, if you will. [00:18:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. The other reason why I wanted to chat with you is because even before Love & Hip Hop and everything else, you had spent years in music, and you were one of the early ones that were looking at the opportunities for artists, working specifically with brands and looking back at whether it was 50's Vitamin water deal or Courvoisier with Busta. [00:19:00] Mona Scott-Young: For Mountain Dew or Missy with Adidas, or I should say Adidas, and Reebok, and you know, A Tribe Called Quest and Sprite, right? It goes all the way back to that.  [00:19:12] Dan Runcie: What do you think it was? 'Cause I felt like Violator was here when everyone else was here in terms of just pushing those things. There were a few others I know that were doing their thing, but it felt like you all were at least five years ahead of where everyone else was pushing them, pushing those things.  [00:19:26] Mona Scott-Young: Well, and I appreciate that. For us, it was really always about how do we maximize for our clients, right? We were managers first. And then when we realized that there were all these other areas that we needed to educate ourselves in and get involved in in order to really manage our clients to the best of our ability, and help them expand their brands, and fully monetize, you know, their talents and their contributions to a culture that we saw was taking over every area of advertising and pop culture. We realized that, you know, the opportunities were way beyond just their music, way beyond understanding how to conduct the business of their music. It was about their branding, their cross, you know, marketing value, their ability to bridge the gap with brands and sponsors. So that was just a function of us really wanting to represent our clients not just the best of our ability to help them maximize to the fullest what they, you know, they were bringing to the table with their music and with their cultural relevance. So we understood that it was bigger than just the music.  [00:20:41] Dan Runcie: And do you feel like a lot of the brand partners that you were pitching and talking to with about these opportunities at the time saw that it was bigger than just the music and wanted in because I look at the way things are now and the amount of deals and partnerships we see now. It was nothing compared to what it was like when you were doing these deals back then.  [00:20:59] Mona Scott-Young: I mean, you know, it's interesting 'cause there was that period where they didn't quite understand what was happening with this, you know, music and the culture because it was always just across the board, Black, White, Asian, and understanding what that kind of point of connection was, right, with all of these kids. Was it the music? Was it the clothing? Was it the lifestyle? What exactly are they buying into? And I think we serve the very important role in helping them bridge that gap, right, giving them that understanding of what hip hop was culturally and all of its different touch points. And then it became about, well, can't we just tap this thing without having to necessarily put this talent front and center? We can just use the music. We can dress, you know, our folks in the clothing and getting them to understand that there was an authenticity, right, that came with the culture that you couldn't fake, and that if you were going to do it, it had to be done in a way that was mutually beneficial because we also couldn't afford to risk our clients' viability with their core audience. Because if they, you know, sold out, then they were done with the music. And that exchange, that dialogue, that conversation I think is what allowed us to position ourselves in a way that benefited our clients, that allowed us to become a gateway to the culture and to the music for a lot of these brands. And that allowed companies like Steve Stoute's Translation literally to exist based on being that, you know, cultural bridge. So it was a step up process of getting them, one, to understand what this thing called hip hop was, and then how it was influencing their consumers, and then how best to tap it in a way that, you know, didn't hurt the artists that they were exploiting. And I'll use the word exploit 'cause I think, you know, exploiting is simply taking full advantage of a situation or, you know, a space. And that's what it was at the end of the day.  [00:23:12] Dan Runcie: And we definitely saw a lot of the success at the time with the number of deals that we were seeing. Were there any that you look back on that you were like, oh, you may have pitched that client, or you may have tried to push this one, they just weren't ready, but if this was now, it would've been, No question, this would've already happened?  [00:23:27] Mona Scott-Young: You know, I always look back at that time fondly because I realized that we were at the forefront of, you know, an industry that nobody knew exactly what it was. Now when I hear, you know, branding, brand partnerships, you know, I'm like, okay, I guess that's what we were doing way back then. But I think I look back more fondly at the way we were able to leverage our talent into those deals, right? Busta with Mountain Dew started out as a print campaign, and by the time we were done, it had grown into this multimillion-dollar, you know, 360 television spots, everything. It started out as a radio campaign, actually, not even, it was just going to be his voice, right? And then it blew up into something more. It's just now it's par for the course. Now, you know, if you don't have a brand endorsement deal, if you're not, you know, aligned, people think you haven't made it right. But back then, I think it was a lot more challenging, a lot more difficult, and, you know, I think we broke a lot of barriers with the kinds of deals that we did.  [00:24:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And I could imagine now that with the stars that are on Love & Hip Hop and the talent that you're working with now, some of them are probably trying to see, okay, can they reach out to you to get advice on these types of deals that they're getting? Do you get involved with any of that ever?  [00:24:52] Mona Scott-Young: Yeah, you know, every once in a while. But the interesting thing is now they're sought after, right, because of their following. And all of these brands want them, you know, creating these organic posts so that folks can really believe they're drinking this slim tummy tea or whatever it is that they're hawking. But I think the value, understanding the value of their engagement with their fans is the most important thing for these guys, and I think they're all doing a fantastic job. I mean, I'm always surprised when it's like, oh, okay, well that's, you know, I don't really believe that they're eating or drinking or engaging in this activity, but more power to you. Go ahead.  [00:25:33] Dan Runcie: Does any of this ever find a way to get itself into the show itself where folks are like, Okay, I have this partnership now, they'll give me extra money if I wear this Fashion Nova t-shirt in this season of Love & Hip Hop?  [00:25:47] Mona Scott-Young: It's funny that you mentioned Fashion Nova because they are extremely aggressive, and they have, you know, they were very smart about the way they built their business, right? They just went out and got a bunch of brand ambassadors, and I think in the beginning it was for a box of free clothes. They had all of these people hawking their product, but the networks and the buyers, they're pretty savvy now. And, you know, they've got their ad sales departments, they still rely probably more than ever on their ad sales dollars. And so they're very, very leery of any kind of integrations, and there are opportunities to kind of go through the front door, do deals with them, buy ad time, and get real, you know, integrated placements. And sometimes, you know, they're also good about if it's an organic, you know, partnership with the talent and it's something potentially that factors into their story, they'll let it slide and let it make its way into the story. But they're a little bit savvy to the fact that, you know, sometimes the talent is getting paid for this and is promising the placement on the show as part of their deal in leveraging that. And yeah, they put the smack down on that.  [00:27:01] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I could imagine because it's one of these things where, of course, it's more money into the show and I think everyone generally could benefit from it. But from the other perspective, you don't just want to turn the whole thing into sponsored content, right?  [00:27:12] Mona Scott-Young: Yeah. I'm constantly saying to the talent, this is not going to be one big message commercial, you know? But listen, a lot of times the network isn't even participating in that income. They're just letting the talent, yeah, whatever deals that they have in place with these brand partners, they just let the talent hang onto it. So it doesn't really bring money to the show's bottom line. And depending on who the partner is, like somebody like Fashion Nova, the network definitely, you know, their antennas go up. But some of you know the smaller brands and especially. If it's the talent's brand, and they know that it's their business, like you'll always see Yandy washing her face with Yelle Skincare. You'll see Rasheeda doing a scene at the Pressed, you know, store or at the Frost Bistro. So if it's their businesses, the network is always happy to, you know, give them the opportunity to promote their brands and their businesses. [00:28:05] Dan Runcie: Is there ever any pressure from the network to try to capture all of the value that the show is creating? 'Cause I know I'm hearing that from so many other areas in media and entertainment, where they're seeing what's being captured in their area, or they're seeing what's happening and what they're creating. They want to be able to capture more of that. How have those conversations been like with the network if they come up at all?  [00:28:27] Mona Scott-Young: When you say capture more of it, you mean with the content or trying to find ways to exploit the brand?  [00:28:32] Dan Runcie: The latter, trying to find ways to exploit the brand.  [00:28:34] Mona Scott-Young: I mean, yeah, absolutely. It's a little bit of a tightrope, right, because they want to preserve the integrity of the brand. They want to protect the brand and not overexpose it or not hurt it by doing the wrong thing with the brand. But they certainly want to, you know, see the brand continue to evolve, which has been a big part of the staying power. And I think Viacom does a really good, you know, job at that when you think about Love & Hip Hop and the way that it's branched into, you know, all of the specials that we do and they have, you know, spinoffs that they do with the talent. And now they're beginning to do smaller capsule shows that are going to be coming out, you know, whether it's like watch party- type shows or, you know, getaway trip- type shows. So they're very careful about not diluting and over-exposing the brand, but they're very good about continuing to build on the brand so that it evolves and, you know, continues to have a long life.  [00:29:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I feel like the longevity you've already had speaks a lot to this. I'm curious though, 'cause I know in other interviews, people have often asked you about how your show is positioned relative to some of the other reality shows and whether or not you are portraying certain people in the best light. And I'm always curious, one of the things I was wondering is that more so chatter where people are talking about these things? Or have any of those conversations actually impacted anything you've either done with the show or the show's success in any way?  [00:30:06] Mona Scott-Young: I mean, a lot of it is chatter because you know, in all fairness, when I watched the other shows, there really isn't anything much different happening on those shows in terms of the way the cast members are expressing themselves in any given moment. I think the increased scrutiny on our show has one to do, and I say it very honestly, with the word hip hop and the title, right? I think that there's this preconceived, you know, stigma attached to this huge genre that is literally pop culture right now. So it's almost ridiculously laughable that people still want to treat hip hop as some kind of a subculture, you know, of any kind. But I think the fact that the word hip hop is in the title makes people put us under a microscope, under a magnifying glass in a much different way than they do with, you know, shows with the word Housewives or Beverly Hills in the title. But if you look at the reactions and you look at some of the situations, they're not different at all. So for me, it is chatter, right, because I think the strength is in the numbers and the viewership. I think that's where you know honestly that there is something very relatable about this show, no matter what people want to say or think, because of the sheer volume of, you know, folks who tune in week in, week out to see the show, the staying power that the show has had, the influence that the show has had, whether it's music or, you know, the number of shoutouts that the show gets, the number of mentions that it gets, what happens on social media whenever the show is on air. There's a stronghold there that I think is undeniable. And so there's that whole saying about, you know, we build things up just to bring them down, and we've seen that happen with so many different cultural and iconic, you know, things, and I just think that it's par for the course with this franchise.  [00:32:08] Dan Runcie: And I also think you've seen that in the range of folks that tune in as well because I think sometimes the type of content that you create, people will often say, oh, well that's meant for a certain type of person. And it's like, well, it's not really the case 'cause there's people of all ranges of income, however you want to measure success.  [00:32:26] Mona Scott-Young: Yeah, it's actually pretty mind-boggling even to this day when, you know, for a long time I did the VOs at the top of the show, so the voice has become a little bit of, you know, its own personality, and, a lot of people don't know what I look like, but the minute I opened my mouth, and it'll be like middle-aged, you know, white people and young, very young kids. And I'm like, why, you know, are you even watching this show? You should be watching Nickelodeon. And so it's interesting to me the broad range of audience that it's found. And again, I always go back to the relatability, and I always go back to the connectivity with the stories, and I think that that's what people gravitate towards.  [00:33:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think that's always going to be there as long as the show continues to evolve as well. And I'm thinking you were probably already thinking about several seasons ahead of now, several years ahead and now, but I'm very curious to see what is this next generation of talent that is going to be into your show, the generation that grew up on TikTok, the generation that grew up with a lot of the things? I think a lot of the talent on your show, whether they're Gen X or millennials, more so, okay, they had their run, but eventually, it's going to be the Gen Z folks and more of them that are going to be on the show more regularly, how that's going to shape not just the things they talk about and everything else, but also as streaming and other things evolve, how the show continues to move, and how the show continues to grow from that perspective. So I'd love to hear what you think the future is going to look like, let's say five years down the road of how this show may continue to evolve. [00:34:01] Mona Scott-Young: Oh, wow. I mean, you know, it's always been about the cast, and they've shaped kind of the feel and the content within the show. So if you're talking about, you know, five years from now, there's going to be a cast there that is reflective of where we are with music, technology, the culture, and those are going to be the stories that we're telling so hard to predict. But like I said, the key and the magic of the franchise has always been that the brand, you know, acted as kind of a bubble within which you cycled in the talent. And five years from now, there's going to be the talent doing what they do, how they do it, and we'll be right there with those cameras to capture it. [00:34:46] Dan Runcie: Yes, it'd be exciting to see. So in the next couple of months though, what should people stay in tune for before we wrap things up here? What should people look out for?  [00:34:54] Mona Scott-Young: Oh, so many things that we're doing. I mean, you know, we spent a lot of time talking about the Love & Hip Hop franchise, but as a company, we have so many other projects that we're engaged in and that we're doing. And one in particular coming October 27th and November 3rd actually is the actual premiere, but Hip Hop Homicides is a show that we're doing on WEtv, 50 Cent and G-Unit, Monami and Lionsgate came together with WEtv, and that is a show we're very excited about, very proud of. And it just, again, utilizing, you know, hip hop culture as kind of the foundation, but it's looking at those staggering number of murders that have occurred within our culture that still remain unsolved and even some of them were folks are, you know, serving time for these murders. They're still questions out there that have never been answered. And so Van Lathan is our host and he does a very active, you know, boots-on-the-ground kind of journey to a bunch of different cities where we take a close look at these murders and talk to family members and fans alike. And it's really, to me, a very, very fresh look at these murders that have plagued our community.  [00:36:08] Dan Runcie: Oh, nice. That'll be a good one. And I've always liked Van in everything that he's done. I know he's done a lot of stuff with The Ringer recently, but no, he'll be good. I'm excited for this.  [00:36:16] Mona Scott-Young: No, he's great at it. And Hip Hop Homicides on WEtv. Yep. November 3rd and we're excited for that one. So that's the next thing coming down the pike.  [00:36:27] Dan Runcie: Great stuff. Great stuff. Well, Mona, this is great. Excited for you. Excited for everything coming up from Monami Entertainment. And if people want to follow along with you or with everything that's happening, where should they check in to follow you?  [00:36:38] Mona Scott-Young: They can check on Instagram, Twitter, all social platforms. Mona Scott-Young or Monami Productions, @monamiproductions.  [00:36:47] Dan Runcie: All right, great. Thanks again. This is great.  [00:36:50] Mona Scott-Young: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. [00:36:54] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 06 Oct 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Mona Scott-Young’s Influence On Culture Goes Beyond Love & Hip Hop full 144 Dan Runcie Mona Scott-Young is best-known for producing the Love & Hip Hop reality TV series on VH1. The franchise debuted in 2011 has remained a TV fixture today through industry-wide changes with TV and around 30 different seasons aired. However, it’s Young’s ability to permeate hip-hop culture into the mainstream that’s been the true calling card. Mona Scott-Young is best-known for producing the Love & Hip Hop reality TV series on VH1. The franchise debuted in 2011 has remained a TV fixture today through industry-wide changes with TV and around 30 different seasons aired. However, it’s Young’s ability to permeate hip-hop culture into the mainstream that’s been the true calling card. Before Love & Hip Hop, Mona managed talent in music. She was a co-founder for Violator with the late Chris Lighty, and was behind memorable brand partnerships such as Busta Rhymes and Courvoisier, Missy Elliott with Reebok and Adidas, and the landmark 50 Cent-Vitamin Water deal, among many others back then, such deals were harder to cut than nowadays. It was during this time in music when Mona was introduced to the fascinating lives of hip-hop wives, which led to Love & Hip-Hop’s creation. But Mona, who also founded and runs Monami Productions,has more stories to tell about the hip-hop industry. She’s teaming up with another well-known TV producer, 50 Cent, on “Hip-Hop Homicides,” which debuts later this year. Mona’s influence on the world of hip-hop reaches further than most realize. To hear how Mona moved the culture forward, you’ll want to listen to our show. Here’s everything we covered:  [2:59] How does Love & Hip Hop stay fresh? [4:45] Biggest challenge for reality TV in social-media age [7:55] Love & Hip Hop success stories  [9:07] Influencing other hip-hop-related series [11:15] Increased programming around hip-hop [14:21] How reality shows fit into today’s streaming landscape [19:00] Mona’s career in music and artist-brand deals [24:52] Brand deals for Love & Hip Hop talent  [28:27] Network pressures to expand the Love & Hip Hop brand [30:06] Scrutiny on the show’s content [34:01] Future of Love & Hip Hop  Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Mona Scott-Youngs, @monascottyoung     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   HitPiece is your place to discover new NFTs from your favorite artists. Learn more today at hitpiece.com   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Mona Scott-Young: These were women who were living in the shadows of the men in their lives who had achieved all the fame and the success, and how were these women leveraging the relationships that they were in and the things that they were doing to get to where they wanted to be in life. So I always framed it as an opportunity, so you're getting these stories, right? All of the heartbreak and all of the joy, the highs, the lows. But in exchange, these women are also getting this platform where they can build their brands, build their businesses.  [00:00:39] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:59] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is the producer and entrepreneur, Mona Scott-Young. She is the mind behind Hop. She also was a music executive for a number of years, worked with Violator and put together some of the more memorable hip hop branding deals of the time, such as Busta Rhymes in Courvoisier and Mountain Dew. She worked with 50 Cent, Vitaminwater as well, and a bunch of other deals, and she's been someone I've wanted to have on this podcast for a while. We talked a lot about the business of TV and how things have changed specifically for a docu-follow show like Love & Hip Hop. This is a show that has been going on for more than 10 seasons now and has had different franchises, different spinoffs, and has had plenty of copycats as well. So we talked about the business of the show, what it's been like producing it, the platform that a lot of the talent have had that have come up from it, one of the most famous examples is Cardi B and what she'd been able to do after the show, but we also talked about some of the other talents that's come from the show as well. We also talked about how Love & Hip Hop is positioned and some of the perception that it's had, whether or not that perception is more so chatter and criticism, or has that actually made a material impact on the business of what Mona's doing. She also talked a little bit about some of the other projects coming up from Monami Entertainment such as Hip Hop Homicides and a whole lot more. It was great to talk to her, get her perspective on streaming, the industry, where things are, and overall the brand deals that are happening in hip hop. Great conversation. Glad we finally had her on. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Mona Scott-Young  [00:02:38] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we are joined by the one and only Mona Scott-Young, producer and one of the great folks in media and entertainment today. And I feel like for you, you've been more than a decade in with Love & Hip Hop, you have several spinoffs. How do you keep things fresh? How do you keep everything coming year after year? [00:02:59] Mona Scott-Young: You know, I always say it's about reinvention. It's about evolution, making sure that you are constantly growing, whether it's me as a producer and applying that to the franchise. You know, what's great about the way that that concept was built is it's that it was a world, right? So we could always populate different folks in and out of that world. So it gave us an opportunity to, you know, cycle in new talent who had fresh stories to tell. And I think that has a lot to do with the staying power and the longevity of the franchise.  [00:03:31] Dan Runcie: I think the other thing that's impressive is just how the show's been able to stay consistent with all of the changes that are happening with media and streaming and anything else. Have there been any big shifts that you've made from that perspective as things that have continued to move, whether it's from cable to streaming networks to where things are now?  [00:03:50] Mona Scott-Young: You know, not necessarily in terms of the concept, right? 'Cause like I said, the stories are what keeps it fresh and different, but we definitely loosened up our shooting style a lot and we became, you know, more free-flowing, I think to be in line with the fact that folks were able to tune into social media and see things happening in real-time. You know, when we first started the franchise, a big part of it was this very soap opera-like feeling that it had. And over the course of the years, we loosened that up a little bit just so that the stories were able to, you know, track a little more closely to what was happening in real-time in their lives. [00:04:30] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Do you feel as if social media changed the overall feel and the flow of the show itself? I know that's something that, I've talked to a lot of people on TV and they felt like they've noticed that. How are some of the ways you feel like social media either impacted things for Love & Hip Hop? [00:04:45] Mona Scott-Young: Absolutely. You know, because there's such a lead time with production and editing. It's really hard to stay up with the fact that these folks are out here living their lives on social media, and so the audience gets a chance to just tune into their IG lives and get a blow-by-blow of everything that's happening in their lives so that by the time our show is edited, it's hard for it to feel fresh, right, because they're like, oh, I saw that happen months ago. And so it's finding those other stories, getting the cast to keep things exclusively for the show so that there's this sense of discovery for the audience. 'Cause I think that's the biggest hurdle for reality TV is the fact that, you know, everyone has access to their audience and can broadcast their lives, you know, on a minute-by-minute basis. And so how do we offer something that's different, something that's entertaining, something that feels fresh and current and relevant? I think that's the biggest challenge.  [00:05:44] Dan Runcie: Have you noticed that shift with social media at all changed based on what platform has been popular at the time? Of course, the show is popular as ever in Black Twitter, but how about with TikTok now with things picking up there? Have there been any unique things you've seen with the reception there?  [00:05:58] Mona Scott-Young: Not necessarily. You know what, I'm not a big TikToker. I don't know if I should say that. I probably just aged myself a thousand years, but, you know, I haven't really noticed a big shift based on TikTok viewership. I know that, you know, or usership, 'cause I know that that's mainly what music, dance, or are they doing skits on there as well? [00:06:21] Dan Runcie: I mean, they're doing skits. I feel like with the show like yours though, it's unique because I think that you're reaching a bit of an older demographic than the folks that are really in TikTok. But like with all these social media platforms, they do tend to scale up at some point, right? So the younger community...  [00:06:37] Mona Scott-Young: We'll see what happens, yeah. One of the biggest things that we saw happen on social media were the reenactments, right, the recreations where you had all of these social influencers and social comedians doing their takes on the scenes from the show, and that gave it a whole another life. And I think, you know, what people enjoy about the show is the cast's ability to be self-deprecating. They make fun of themselves, so sometimes you'd see them participating in those skits. You know, social media has always played a huge role in the success of the franchise, even dating back to the very early days where we gave bloggers and the video influencers, the social media influencers, the sneak peek at the show so that they kind of had first dibs. And the immediacy of, you know, them talking about the show and having that engagement was a big part of the success of the show. So I love it when I continuously see the show showing up in different ways on social media. [00:07:34] Dan Runcie: Can we also talk about how social media has been a big piece for how a lot of the folks on the show can use Love & Hip Hop as a platform to do other things? I think Cardi B, of course, has been one of the hallmark examples of this. But what are some of the other folks that stick out for you in terms of, yes, what they were able to do at this show, and then social media took them to another level? [00:07:55] Mona Scott-Young: I mean, if you think about everyone who's like started a business, right? Most of their products, they're hawking them online and via social media. So, you know, whether it's the waist trainers, the hair clips, makeup, all of that stuff kind of came from seeing it on the show and then watching them blow it up. And then you have some of it that was reverse engineered like Cardi was huge on social media already as kind of a, you know, influencer, comic, and having an opportunity to be on the show expanded her audience. But I just think seeing those two things come together, that was probably the biggest example of how, you know, social media and linear TV worked really well to really expand her brand. [00:08:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah, especially with her specifically. I mean, she's giving you the shoutouts in the songs, too, but just seeing what she's able to do creatively with the brand, and I think that's something that's been unique that we've seen with reality TV overall. But I feel like with your type of show specifically because you do get some of those characters that come back, you have some that go off and do their own thing, you see a bit more of that variety than some of these other shows where it's like one season that you may never see that person in the season.  [00:09:07] Mona Scott-Young: That's very, very true. I mean, one of the big mandates for me, 'cause a lot of these shows were just about chronicling lives, right? This is about your life. For me, it was always, this is an opportunity, right? If you think about at its core, these were women, or the core of the original concept, these were women who were living in the shadows, right, of the men in their lives who had achieved all the fame and the success, and how were these women leveraging the relationships that they were in and the things that they were doing to get to where they wanted to be in life. So I always framed it as an opportunity, and what I love to see is how, you know, they go out and they take advantage of that opportunity. So you're getting these stories, right? All of the heartbreak and all of the, you know, the joy, the highs, the lows. But in exchange, these women are also getting this platform where they can build their brands, build their businesses. Everyone from Yandy, right, who went from being behind the scenes to having her Yelle Skin Care and all of her other numerous businesses that she has. Cardi with her music, who, you know, was doing her music, didn't have that massive success, had a huge following on social media, but was able to kind of connect the dots in a way that allowed for her music to take off. Oh, God, Rasheeda, Karlie Redd, and K. Michelle, and when I think about all of the success stories with their businesses and their brands, that for me is the big differentiator for Love & Hip Hop 'cause I think these ladies understood the assignment, understood that this was an opportunity, and took advantage of it to, you know, level up in their lives and what they were doing with their business. [00:10:50] Dan Runcie: And I feel like I've seen your own career and your own opportunities take a similar evolution as the show has continued to have its own success, and you had started your production company years ago, but I think right now we've just seen more and more opportunity for creators like yourself that have been able to establish their franchises and just have the success and have different networks have interest in them year over year. What has that process been like?  [00:11:15] Mona Scott-Young: Yeah. You know, it's the most gratifying thing because I think, you know, the first to market with anything always is a double-edged sword, right? So Love & Hip Hop was the first docu-follow of its kind that focused on the genre of hip hop and the way that we did, and really gave a different look and feel to what we're used to seeing on reality television. And what we've seen since then, I think, are a lot of shows that I would say Love & Hip Hop paved the way for. You know, shoutout to shows like Power and, you know, Empire and even Rap Sh!t that Issa Rae has on right now. I look at that and I go, yeah, the fact that, you know, we're now giving space to scripted shows that are set in this world and shining a light on the culture and, you know, the women in the culture specifically, if you look at Rap Sh!t, I feel like that is a direct descendant of what Love & Hip Hop was able to pave the way for. [00:12:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, those are good examples. I feel like that moment in the end of the 2010s, you started to see more shows, I feel like that whole Empire run and a bunch of shows around that, we're able to see a lot of success there. I also feel like around this time too, especially in the most recent years, we've also seen a lot more studios and a lot more folks get different opportunities, whether it's folks getting these overall deals from the streaming services or some others getting big interest from private equity firms that are trying to invest in these studios. As someone that runs a studio, runs a reduction company yourself, how do you view that landscape, and how do those opportunities come up for different folks? [00:12:55] Mona Scott-Young: I mean, I think it's fantastic. I think it's a wonderful thing. I still don't think there's enough of it happening. I always say that during, you know, Black Lives Matter, when we were at the height of that movement, there were so many overtures, right? So many calls were made and people wanting to be in business. And I do believe you're seeing an increased number of programming that caters to our audience and opportunities for those content creators. But I also, you know, hope that this trend continues, and I hope this isn't kind of a performative gesture in order to check a box or to satisfy, you know, their contribution. But, I think it's great. I think the more that audiences understand that their viewership matters, that their support matters, and that's really what is going to dictate it at the end of the day, because we can, you know, get those dollars in and we can get those opportunities. But if those eyeballs don't tune in, then you know, we're not going to continue to see the programming and have those opportunities. So I think it's, you know, nice to see it happen. I'm very interested in seeing what the staying power is for this and how those opportunities increase and not, you know, level out.  [00:14:10] Dan Runcie: Do you think that there is any sort of fear or thought that folks should have about the staying power of those eyeballs? Like, does some of these things seem a bit more fleeting in nature?  [00:14:21] Mona Scott-Young: I don't think we get the same commitment to staying with something and giving it an opportunity to grow, right? It's like if we don't have instant success, if we don't get those eyeballs instantly, the idea is, oh, this audience is in here moving on to the next, right? I just think that sometimes it takes a minute for a show to catch on. I don't ever think the same marketing dollars are put towards the programming so that folks even have the awareness level that's usually left to us to figure out what are the ways that we're going to bring visibility to, you know, our shows and make sure that, you know, folks know that we exist. Again, I just hope that the commitment extends beyond just the initial overture and that there is promotions and marketing and commitment to seeing these shows grow and find their audience like every other programming has an opportunity to do.  [00:15:18] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. It also makes me think about whether or not there are specific differences as well for folks who are making shows, whether it's something for streaming versus something for cable TV or for a network specifically, because I know that with your shows and some of the others that are doing reality things, most of your audience still is, at least from my understanding, still tuning in through cable and watching it through those areas, but. Even though we started to see some reality TV that's been exclusive to these streaming services, it still hasn't been to the same extent that we see, like whether it's with Love & Hip Hop on VH1 or some of the other services. Why do you think that is? And do you think that'll change at all?  [00:15:59] Mona Scott-Young: I think the formats have to evolve in order for us to find the right formula to live on the streamers. You know, those shows are about repeatability and about, you know, the binge-watching and, you know, for reality, there's something about that appointment television that tuning in week in and week out that I think plays into the idea that what is happening is happening to some extent in real-time, even though we know it isn't, and the ability to, you know, watch it all. I think it's just a different, it's a shift. It's a paradigm shift, and we have to figure out what the right formula is, what the right content play is to work in that arena. So there's a lot of conversations around that and everybody's trying to find like, kind of what is it right now what you're seeing on streamers are. Formatted docu-series, like real estate shows and, you know, those kind of, I'm trying to think of what are some of the docu-follows that are living. Probably the Kardashian show in Hulu is an example, right? That's kind of a beast of a different nature, right? There's a rabid audience there for the Kardashian clan that I think will watch no matter where it exists. So, you know, I'd love to see more conventional docu-follow find its way to the streamers. I think there's going to have to be a little bit of a fine-tuning in what that format looks like for it to really work there. [00:17:29] Dan Runcie: Right. Because it isn't necessarily a binge release. I don't feel like that necessarily makes sense if you're trying to follow things. I think back to, it was Rhythm + Flow. This is almost three years ago at this point, but the show, you know, the competition show Cardi B and Chance and T.I., I think they did every week or every other week for three block episode of release, and I felt like that was okay. It wasn't too long that felt like it didn't make sense for Netflix, but it was just enough to capture some momentum. And I think back about that, I was like, Okay.  [00:17:58] Mona Scott-Young: They're doing that as a format, right? It's a competition show. So those work. The competition shows work. The format shows, the real estate, the cooking, the anything, it's just that finding that right rhythm, that right lane for docu-follow is going to be the challenge. [00:18:14] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. That's your point. And then, of course, the Kardashians may be a bit of an outlier just given the size of them, but you are, in a lot of ways, bringing either new stars or people who haven't necessarily had their headlines everywhere in quite some time to the stage, and that's a little bit of a different... [00:18:31] Mona Scott-Young: That's a little bit of a different, yeah, a little bit of a different proposition, if you will. [00:18:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. The other reason why I wanted to chat with you is because even before Love & Hip Hop and everything else, you had spent years in music, and you were one of the early ones that were looking at the opportunities for artists, working specifically with brands and looking back at whether it was 50's Vitamin water deal or Courvoisier with Busta. [00:19:00] Mona Scott-Young: For Mountain Dew or Missy with Adidas, or I should say Adidas, and Reebok, and you know, A Tribe Called Quest and Sprite, right? It goes all the way back to that.  [00:19:12] Dan Runcie: What do you think it was? 'Cause I felt like Violator was here when everyone else was here in terms of just pushing those things. There were a few others I know that were doing their thing, but it felt like you all were at least five years ahead of where everyone else was pushing them, pushing those things.  [00:19:26] Mona Scott-Young: Well, and I appreciate that. For us, it was really always about how do we maximize for our clients, right? We were managers first. And then when we realized that there were all these other areas that we needed to educate ourselves in and get involved in in order to really manage our clients to the best of our ability, and help them expand their brands, and fully monetize, you know, their talents and their contributions to a culture that we saw was taking over every area of advertising and pop culture. We realized that, you know, the opportunities were way beyond just their music, way beyond understanding how to conduct the business of their music. It was about their branding, their cross, you know, marketing value, their ability to bridge the gap with brands and sponsors. So that was just a function of us really wanting to represent our clients not just the best of our ability to help them maximize to the fullest what they, you know, they were bringing to the table with their music and with their cultural relevance. So we understood that it was bigger than just the music.  [00:20:41] Dan Runcie: And do you feel like a lot of the brand partners that you were pitching and talking to with about these opportunities at the time saw that it was bigger than just the music and wanted in because I look at the way things are now and the amount of deals and partnerships we see now. It was nothing compared to what it was like when you were doing these deals back then.  [00:20:59] Mona Scott-Young: I mean, you know, it's interesting 'cause there was that period where they didn't quite understand what was happening with this, you know, music and the culture because it was always just across the board, Black, White, Asian, and understanding what that kind of point of connection was, right, with all of these kids. Was it the music? Was it the clothing? Was it the lifestyle? What exactly are they buying into? And I think we serve the very important role in helping them bridge that gap, right, giving them that understanding of what hip hop was culturally and all of its different touch points. And then it became about, well, can't we just tap this thing without having to necessarily put this talent front and center? We can just use the music. We can dress, you know, our folks in the clothing and getting them to understand that there was an authenticity, right, that came with the culture that you couldn't fake, and that if you were going to do it, it had to be done in a way that was mutually beneficial because we also couldn't afford to risk our clients' viability with their core audience. Because if they, you know, sold out, then they were done with the music. And that exchange, that dialogue, that conversation I think is what allowed us to position ourselves in a way that benefited our clients, that allowed us to become a gateway to the culture and to the music for a lot of these brands. And that allowed companies like Steve Stoute's Translation literally to exist based on being that, you know, cultural bridge. So it was a step up process of getting them, one, to understand what this thing called hip hop was, and then how it was influencing their consumers, and then how best to tap it in a way that, you know, didn't hurt the artists that they were exploiting. And I'll use the word exploit 'cause I think, you know, exploiting is simply taking full advantage of a situation or, you know, a space. And that's what it was at the end of the day.  [00:23:12] Dan Runcie: And we definitely saw a lot of the success at the time with the number of deals that we were seeing. Were there any that you look back on that you were like, oh, you may have pitched that client, or you may have tried to push this one, they just weren't ready, but if this was now, it would've been, No question, this would've already happened?  [00:23:27] Mona Scott-Young: You know, I always look back at that time fondly because I realized that we were at the forefront of, you know, an industry that nobody knew exactly what it was. Now when I hear, you know, branding, brand partnerships, you know, I'm like, okay, I guess that's what we were doing way back then. But I think I look back more fondly at the way we were able to leverage our talent into those deals, right? Busta with Mountain Dew started out as a print campaign, and by the time we were done, it had grown into this multimillion-dollar, you know, 360 television spots, everything. It started out as a radio campaign, actually, not even, it was just going to be his voice, right? And then it blew up into something more. It's just now it's par for the course. Now, you know, if you don't have a brand endorsement deal, if you're not, you know, aligned, people think you haven't made it right. But back then, I think it was a lot more challenging, a lot more difficult, and, you know, I think we broke a lot of barriers with the kinds of deals that we did.  [00:24:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And I could imagine now that with the stars that are on Love & Hip Hop and the talent that you're working with now, some of them are probably trying to see, okay, can they reach out to you to get advice on these types of deals that they're getting? Do you get involved with any of that ever?  [00:24:52] Mona Scott-Young: Yeah, you know, every once in a while. But the interesting thing is now they're sought after, right, because of their following. And all of these brands want them, you know, creating these organic posts so that folks can really believe they're drinking this slim tummy tea or whatever it is that they're hawking. But I think the value, understanding the value of their engagement with their fans is the most important thing for these guys, and I think they're all doing a fantastic job. I mean, I'm always surprised when it's like, oh, okay, well that's, you know, I don't really believe that they're eating or drinking or engaging in this activity, but more power to you. Go ahead.  [00:25:33] Dan Runcie: Does any of this ever find a way to get itself into the show itself where folks are like, Okay, I have this partnership now, they'll give me extra money if I wear this Fashion Nova t-shirt in this season of Love & Hip Hop?  [00:25:47] Mona Scott-Young: It's funny that you mentioned Fashion Nova because they are extremely aggressive, and they have, you know, they were very smart about the way they built their business, right? They just went out and got a bunch of brand ambassadors, and I think in the beginning it was for a box of free clothes. They had all of these people hawking their product, but the networks and the buyers, they're pretty savvy now. And, you know, they've got their ad sales departments, they still rely probably more than ever on their ad sales dollars. And so they're very, very leery of any kind of integrations, and there are opportunities to kind of go through the front door, do deals with them, buy ad time, and get real, you know, integrated placements. And sometimes, you know, they're also good about if it's an organic, you know, partnership with the talent and it's something potentially that factors into their story, they'll let it slide and let it make its way into the story. But they're a little bit savvy to the fact that, you know, sometimes the talent is getting paid for this and is promising the placement on the show as part of their deal in leveraging that. And yeah, they put the smack down on that.  [00:27:01] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I could imagine because it's one of these things where, of course, it's more money into the show and I think everyone generally could benefit from it. But from the other perspective, you don't just want to turn the whole thing into sponsored content, right?  [00:27:12] Mona Scott-Young: Yeah. I'm constantly saying to the talent, this is not going to be one big message commercial, you know? But listen, a lot of times the network isn't even participating in that income. They're just letting the talent, yeah, whatever deals that they have in place with these brand partners, they just let the talent hang onto it. So it doesn't really bring money to the show's bottom line. And depending on who the partner is, like somebody like Fashion Nova, the network definitely, you know, their antennas go up. But some of you know the smaller brands and especially. If it's the talent's brand, and they know that it's their business, like you'll always see Yandy washing her face with Yelle Skincare. You'll see Rasheeda doing a scene at the Pressed, you know, store or at the Frost Bistro. So if it's their businesses, the network is always happy to, you know, give them the opportunity to promote their brands and their businesses. [00:28:05] Dan Runcie: Is there ever any pressure from the network to try to capture all of the value that the show is creating? 'Cause I know I'm hearing that from so many other areas in media and entertainment, where they're seeing what's being captured in their area, or they're seeing what's happening and what they're creating. They want to be able to capture more of that. How have those conversations been like with the network if they come up at all?  [00:28:27] Mona Scott-Young: When you say capture more of it, you mean with the content or trying to find ways to exploit the brand?  [00:28:32] Dan Runcie: The latter, trying to find ways to exploit the brand.  [00:28:34] Mona Scott-Young: I mean, yeah, absolutely. It's a little bit of a tightrope, right, because they want to preserve the integrity of the brand. They want to protect the brand and not overexpose it or not hurt it by doing the wrong thing with the brand. But they certainly want to, you know, see the brand continue to evolve, which has been a big part of the staying power. And I think Viacom does a really good, you know, job at that when you think about Love & Hip Hop and the way that it's branched into, you know, all of the specials that we do and they have, you know, spinoffs that they do with the talent. And now they're beginning to do smaller capsule shows that are going to be coming out, you know, whether it's like watch party- type shows or, you know, getaway trip- type shows. So they're very careful about not diluting and over-exposing the brand, but they're very good about continuing to build on the brand so that it evolves and, you know, continues to have a long life.  [00:29:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I feel like the longevity you've already had speaks a lot to this. I'm curious though, 'cause I know in other interviews, people have often asked you about how your show is positioned relative to some of the other reality shows and whether or not you are portraying certain people in the best light. And I'm always curious, one of the things I was wondering is that more so chatter where people are talking about these things? Or have any of those conversations actually impacted anything you've either done with the show or the show's success in any way?  [00:30:06] Mona Scott-Young: I mean, a lot of it is chatter because you know, in all fairness, when I watched the other shows, there really isn't anything much different happening on those shows in terms of the way the cast members are expressing themselves in any given moment. I think the increased scrutiny on our show has one to do, and I say it very honestly, with the word hip hop and the title, right? I think that there's this preconceived, you know, stigma attached to this huge genre that is literally pop culture right now. So it's almost ridiculously laughable that people still want to treat hip hop as some kind of a subculture, you know, of any kind. But I think the fact that the word hip hop is in the title makes people put us under a microscope, under a magnifying glass in a much different way than they do with, you know, shows with the word Housewives or Beverly Hills in the title. But if you look at the reactions and you look at some of the situations, they're not different at all. So for me, it is chatter, right, because I think the strength is in the numbers and the viewership. I think that's where you know honestly that there is something very relatable about this show, no matter what people want to say or think, because of the sheer volume of, you know, folks who tune in week in, week out to see the show, the staying power that the show has had, the influence that the show has had, whether it's music or, you know, the number of shoutouts that the show gets, the number of mentions that it gets, what happens on social media whenever the show is on air. There's a stronghold there that I think is undeniable. And so there's that whole saying about, you know, we build things up just to bring them down, and we've seen that happen with so many different cultural and iconic, you know, things, and I just think that it's par for the course with this franchise.  [00:32:08] Dan Runcie: And I also think you've seen that in the range of folks that tune in as well because I think sometimes the type of content that you create, people will often say, oh, well that's meant for a certain type of person. And it's like, well, it's not really the case 'cause there's people of all ranges of income, however you want to measure success.  [00:32:26] Mona Scott-Young: Yeah, it's actually pretty mind-boggling even to this day when, you know, for a long time I did the VOs at the top of the show, so the voice has become a little bit of, you know, its own personality, and, a lot of people don't know what I look like, but the minute I opened my mouth, and it'll be like middle-aged, you know, white people and young, very young kids. And I'm like, why, you know, are you even watching this show? You should be watching Nickelodeon. And so it's interesting to me the broad range of audience that it's found. And again, I always go back to the relatability, and I always go back to the connectivity with the stories, and I think that that's what people gravitate towards.  [00:33:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think that's always going to be there as long as the show continues to evolve as well. And I'm thinking you were probably already thinking about several seasons ahead of now, several years ahead and now, but I'm very curious to see what is this next generation of talent that is going to be into your show, the generation that grew up on TikTok, the generation that grew up with a lot of the things? I think a lot of the talent on your show, whether they're Gen X or millennials, more so, okay, they had their run, but eventually, it's going to be the Gen Z folks and more of them that are going to be on the show more regularly, how that's going to shape not just the things they talk about and everything else, but also as streaming and other things evolve, how the show continues to move, and how the show continues to grow from that perspective. So I'd love to hear what you think the future is going to look like, let's say five years down the road of how this show may continue to evolve. [00:34:01] Mona Scott-Young: Oh, wow. I mean, you know, it's always been about the cast, and they've shaped kind of the feel and the content within the show. So if you're talking about, you know, five years from now, there's going to be a cast there that is reflective of where we are with music, technology, the culture, and those are going to be the stories that we're telling so hard to predict. But like I said, the key and the magic of the franchise has always been that the brand, you know, acted as kind of a bubble within which you cycled in the talent. And five years from now, there's going to be the talent doing what they do, how they do it, and we'll be right there with those cameras to capture it. [00:34:46] Dan Runcie: Yes, it'd be exciting to see. So in the next couple of months though, what should people stay in tune for before we wrap things up here? What should people look out for?  [00:34:54] Mona Scott-Young: Oh, so many things that we're doing. I mean, you know, we spent a lot of time talking about the Love & Hip Hop franchise, but as a company, we have so many other projects that we're engaged in and that we're doing. And one in particular coming October 27th and November 3rd actually is the actual premiere, but Hip Hop Homicides is a show that we're doing on WEtv, 50 Cent and G-Unit, Monami and Lionsgate came together with WEtv, and that is a show we're very excited about, very proud of. And it just, again, utilizing, you know, hip hop culture as kind of the foundation, but it's looking at those staggering number of murders that have occurred within our culture that still remain unsolved and even some of them were folks are, you know, serving time for these murders. They're still questions out there that have never been answered. And so Van Lathan is our host and he does a very active, you know, boots-on-the-ground kind of journey to a bunch of different cities where we take a close look at these murders and talk to family members and fans alike. And it's really, to me, a very, very fresh look at these murders that have plagued our community.  [00:36:08] Dan Runcie: Oh, nice. That'll be a good one. And I've always liked Van in everything that he's done. I know he's done a lot of stuff with The Ringer recently, but no, he'll be good. I'm excited for this.  [00:36:16] Mona Scott-Young: No, he's great at it. And Hip Hop Homicides on WEtv. Yep. November 3rd and we're excited for that one. So that's the next thing coming down the pike.  [00:36:27] Dan Runcie: Great stuff. Great stuff. Well, Mona, this is great. Excited for you. Excited for everything coming up from Monami Entertainment. And if people want to follow along with you or with everything that's happening, where should they check in to follow you?  [00:36:38] Mona Scott-Young: They can check on Instagram, Twitter, all social platforms. Mona Scott-Young or Monami Productions, @monamiproductions.  [00:36:47] Dan Runcie: All right, great. Thanks again. This is great.  [00:36:50] Mona Scott-Young: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. [00:36:54] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Mona Scott-Young is best-known for producing the Love & Hip Hop reality TV series on VH1. The franchise debuted in 2011 has remained a TV fixture today through industry-wide changes with TV and around 30 different seasons aired. However, it’s Young’s ability to permeate hip-hop culture into the mainstream that’s been the true calling card.


Before Love & Hip Hop, Mona managed talent in music. She was a co-founder for Violator with the late Chris Lighty, and was behind memorable brand partnerships such as Busta Rhymes and Courvoisier, Missy Elliott with Reebok and Adidas, and the landmark 50 Cent-Vitamin Water deal, among many others back then, such deals were harder to cut than nowadays.


It was during this time in music when Mona was introduced to the fascinating lives of hip-hop wives, which led to Love & Hip-Hop’s creation. But Mona, who also founded and runs Monami Productions,has more stories to tell about the hip-hop industry. She’s teaming up with another well-known TV producer, 50 Cent, on “Hip-Hop Homicides,” which debuts later this year.


Mona’s influence on the world of hip-hop reaches further than most realize. To hear how Mona moved the culture forward, you’ll want to listen to our show. Here’s everything we covered: 


[2:59] How does Love & Hip Hop stay fresh?

[4:45] Biggest challenge for reality TV in social-media age

[7:55] Love & Hip Hop success stories 

[9:07] Influencing other hip-hop-related series

[11:15] Increased programming around hip-hop

[14:21] How reality shows fit into today’s streaming landscape

[19:00] Mona’s career in music and artist-brand deals

[24:52] Brand deals for Love & Hip Hop talent 

[28:27] Network pressures to expand the Love & Hip Hop brand

[30:06] Scrutiny on the show’s content

[34:01] Future of Love & Hip Hop 



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Mona Scott-Youngs, @monascottyoung

 

 

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TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Mona Scott-Young: These were women who were living in the shadows of the men in their lives who had achieved all the fame and the success, and how were these women leveraging the relationships that they were in and the things that they were doing to get to where they wanted to be in life. So I always framed it as an opportunity, so you're getting these stories, right? All of the heartbreak and all of the joy, the highs, the lows. But in exchange, these women are also getting this platform where they can build their brands, build their businesses. 

[00:00:39] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. 

[00:00:59] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is the producer and entrepreneur, Mona Scott-Young. She is the mind behind Hop. She also was a music executive for a number of years, worked with Violator and put together some of the more memorable hip hop branding deals of the time, such as Busta Rhymes in Courvoisier and Mountain Dew. She worked with 50 Cent, Vitaminwater as well, and a bunch of other deals, and she's been someone I've wanted to have on this podcast for a while. We talked a lot about the business of TV and how things have changed specifically for a docu-follow show like Love & Hip Hop. This is a show that has been going on for more than 10 seasons now and has had different franchises, different spinoffs, and has had plenty of copycats as well. So we talked about the business of the show, what it's been like producing it, the platform that a lot of the talent have had that have come up from it, one of the most famous examples is Cardi B and what she'd been able to do after the show, but we also talked about some of the other talents that's come from the show as well. We also talked about how Love & Hip Hop is positioned and some of the perception that it's had, whether or not that perception is more so chatter and criticism, or has that actually made a material impact on the business of what Mona's doing. She also talked a little bit about some of the other projects coming up from Monami Entertainment such as Hip Hop Homicides and a whole lot more. It was great to talk to her, get her perspective on streaming, the industry, where things are, and overall the brand deals that are happening in hip hop. Great conversation. Glad we finally had her on. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Mona Scott-Young 

[00:02:38] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we are joined by the one and only Mona Scott-Young, producer and one of the great folks in media and entertainment today. And I feel like for you, you've been more than a decade in with Love & Hip Hop, you have several spinoffs. How do you keep things fresh? How do you keep everything coming year after year?

[00:02:59] Mona Scott-Young: You know, I always say it's about reinvention. It's about evolution, making sure that you are constantly growing, whether it's me as a producer and applying that to the franchise. You know, what's great about the way that that concept was built is it's that it was a world, right? So we could always populate different folks in and out of that world. So it gave us an opportunity to, you know, cycle in new talent who had fresh stories to tell. And I think that has a lot to do with the staying power and the longevity of the franchise. 

[00:03:31] Dan Runcie: I think the other thing that's impressive is just how the show's been able to stay consistent with all of the changes that are happening with media and streaming and anything else. Have there been any big shifts that you've made from that perspective as things that have continued to move, whether it's from cable to streaming networks to where things are now? 

[00:03:50] Mona Scott-Young: You know, not necessarily in terms of the concept, right? 'Cause like I said, the stories are what keeps it fresh and different, but we definitely loosened up our shooting style a lot and we became, you know, more free-flowing, I think to be in line with the fact that folks were able to tune into social media and see things happening in real-time. You know, when we first started the franchise, a big part of it was this very soap opera-like feeling that it had. And over the course of the years, we loosened that up a little bit just so that the stories were able to, you know, track a little more closely to what was happening in real-time in their lives.

[00:04:30] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Do you feel as if social media changed the overall feel and the flow of the show itself? I know that's something that, I've talked to a lot of people on TV and they felt like they've noticed that. How are some of the ways you feel like social media either impacted things for Love & Hip Hop?

[00:04:45] Mona Scott-Young: Absolutely. You know, because there's such a lead time with production and editing. It's really hard to stay up with the fact that these folks are out here living their lives on social media, and so the audience gets a chance to just tune into their IG lives and get a blow-by-blow of everything that's happening in their lives so that by the time our show is edited, it's hard for it to feel fresh, right, because they're like, oh, I saw that happen months ago. And so it's finding those other stories, getting the cast to keep things exclusively for the show so that there's this sense of discovery for the audience. 'Cause I think that's the biggest hurdle for reality TV is the fact that, you know, everyone has access to their audience and can broadcast their lives, you know, on a minute-by-minute basis. And so how do we offer something that's different, something that's entertaining, something that feels fresh and current and relevant? I think that's the biggest challenge. 

[00:05:44] Dan Runcie: Have you noticed that shift with social media at all changed based on what platform has been popular at the time? Of course, the show is popular as ever in Black Twitter, but how about with TikTok now with things picking up there? Have there been any unique things you've seen with the reception there? 

[00:05:58] Mona Scott-Young: Not necessarily. You know what, I'm not a big TikToker. I don't know if I should say that. I probably just aged myself a thousand years, but, you know, I haven't really noticed a big shift based on TikTok viewership. I know that, you know, or usership, 'cause I know that that's mainly what music, dance, or are they doing skits on there as well?

[00:06:21] Dan Runcie: I mean, they're doing skits. I feel like with the show like yours though, it's unique because I think that you're reaching a bit of an older demographic than the folks that are really in TikTok. But like with all these social media platforms, they do tend to scale up at some point, right? So the younger community... 

[00:06:37] Mona Scott-Young: We'll see what happens, yeah. One of the biggest things that we saw happen on social media were the reenactments, right, the recreations where you had all of these social influencers and social comedians doing their takes on the scenes from the show, and that gave it a whole another life. And I think, you know, what people enjoy about the show is the cast's ability to be self-deprecating. They make fun of themselves, so sometimes you'd see them participating in those skits. You know, social media has always played a huge role in the success of the franchise, even dating back to the very early days where we gave bloggers and the video influencers, the social media influencers, the sneak peek at the show so that they kind of had first dibs. And the immediacy of, you know, them talking about the show and having that engagement was a big part of the success of the show. So I love it when I continuously see the show showing up in different ways on social media.

[00:07:34] Dan Runcie: Can we also talk about how social media has been a big piece for how a lot of the folks on the show can use Love & Hip Hop as a platform to do other things? I think Cardi B, of course, has been one of the hallmark examples of this. But what are some of the other folks that stick out for you in terms of, yes, what they were able to do at this show, and then social media took them to another level?

[00:07:55] Mona Scott-Young: I mean, if you think about everyone who's like started a business, right? Most of their products, they're hawking them online and via social media. So, you know, whether it's the waist trainers, the hair clips, makeup, all of that stuff kind of came from seeing it on the show and then watching them blow it up. And then you have some of it that was reverse engineered like Cardi was huge on social media already as kind of a, you know, influencer, comic, and having an opportunity to be on the show expanded her audience. But I just think seeing those two things come together, that was probably the biggest example of how, you know, social media and linear TV worked really well to really expand her brand.

[00:08:40] Dan Runcie: Yeah, especially with her specifically. I mean, she's giving you the shoutouts in the songs, too, but just seeing what she's able to do creatively with the brand, and I think that's something that's been unique that we've seen with reality TV overall. But I feel like with your type of show specifically because you do get some of those characters that come back, you have some that go off and do their own thing, you see a bit more of that variety than some of these other shows where it's like one season that you may never see that person in the season. 

[00:09:07] Mona Scott-Young: That's very, very true. I mean, one of the big mandates for me, 'cause a lot of these shows were just about chronicling lives, right? This is about your life. For me, it was always, this is an opportunity, right? If you think about at its core, these were women, or the core of the original concept, these were women who were living in the shadows, right, of the men in their lives who had achieved all the fame and the success, and how were these women leveraging the relationships that they were in and the things that they were doing to get to where they wanted to be in life. So I always framed it as an opportunity, and what I love to see is how, you know, they go out and they take advantage of that opportunity. So you're getting these stories, right? All of the heartbreak and all of the, you know, the joy, the highs, the lows. But in exchange, these women are also getting this platform where they can build their brands, build their businesses. Everyone from Yandy, right, who went from being behind the scenes to having her Yelle Skin Care and all of her other numerous businesses that she has. Cardi with her music, who, you know, was doing her music, didn't have that massive success, had a huge following on social media, but was able to kind of connect the dots in a way that allowed for her music to take off. Oh, God, Rasheeda, Karlie Redd, and K. Michelle, and when I think about all of the success stories with their businesses and their brands, that for me is the big differentiator for Love & Hip Hop 'cause I think these ladies understood the assignment, understood that this was an opportunity, and took advantage of it to, you know, level up in their lives and what they were doing with their business.

[00:10:50] Dan Runcie: And I feel like I've seen your own career and your own opportunities take a similar evolution as the show has continued to have its own success, and you had started your production company years ago, but I think right now we've just seen more and more opportunity for creators like yourself that have been able to establish their franchises and just have the success and have different networks have interest in them year over year. What has that process been like? 

[00:11:15] Mona Scott-Young: Yeah. You know, it's the most gratifying thing because I think, you know, the first to market with anything always is a double-edged sword, right? So Love & Hip Hop was the first docu-follow of its kind that focused on the genre of hip hop and the way that we did, and really gave a different look and feel to what we're used to seeing on reality television. And what we've seen since then, I think, are a lot of shows that I would say Love & Hip Hop paved the way for. You know, shoutout to shows like Power and, you know, Empire and even Rap Sh!t that Issa Rae has on right now. I look at that and I go, yeah, the fact that, you know, we're now giving space to scripted shows that are set in this world and shining a light on the culture and, you know, the women in the culture specifically, if you look at Rap Sh!t, I feel like that is a direct descendant of what Love & Hip Hop was able to pave the way for.

[00:12:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, those are good examples. I feel like that moment in the end of the 2010s, you started to see more shows, I feel like that whole Empire run and a bunch of shows around that, we're able to see a lot of success there. I also feel like around this time too, especially in the most recent years, we've also seen a lot more studios and a lot more folks get different opportunities, whether it's folks getting these overall deals from the streaming services or some others getting big interest from private equity firms that are trying to invest in these studios. As someone that runs a studio, runs a reduction company yourself, how do you view that landscape, and how do those opportunities come up for different folks?

[00:12:55] Mona Scott-Young: I mean, I think it's fantastic. I think it's a wonderful thing. I still don't think there's enough of it happening. I always say that during, you know, Black Lives Matter, when we were at the height of that movement, there were so many overtures, right? So many calls were made and people wanting to be in business. And I do believe you're seeing an increased number of programming that caters to our audience and opportunities for those content creators. But I also, you know, hope that this trend continues, and I hope this isn't kind of a performative gesture in order to check a box or to satisfy, you know, their contribution. But, I think it's great. I think the more that audiences understand that their viewership matters, that their support matters, and that's really what is going to dictate it at the end of the day, because we can, you know, get those dollars in and we can get those opportunities. But if those eyeballs don't tune in, then you know, we're not going to continue to see the programming and have those opportunities. So I think it's, you know, nice to see it happen. I'm very interested in seeing what the staying power is for this and how those opportunities increase and not, you know, level out. 

[00:14:10] Dan Runcie: Do you think that there is any sort of fear or thought that folks should have about the staying power of those eyeballs? Like, does some of these things seem a bit more fleeting in nature? 

[00:14:21] Mona Scott-Young: I don't think we get the same commitment to staying with something and giving it an opportunity to grow, right? It's like if we don't have instant success, if we don't get those eyeballs instantly, the idea is, oh, this audience is in here moving on to the next, right? I just think that sometimes it takes a minute for a show to catch on. I don't ever think the same marketing dollars are put towards the programming so that folks even have the awareness level that's usually left to us to figure out what are the ways that we're going to bring visibility to, you know, our shows and make sure that, you know, folks know that we exist. Again, I just hope that the commitment extends beyond just the initial overture and that there is promotions and marketing and commitment to seeing these shows grow and find their audience like every other programming has an opportunity to do. 

[00:15:18] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. It also makes me think about whether or not there are specific differences as well for folks who are making shows, whether it's something for streaming versus something for cable TV or for a network specifically, because I know that with your shows and some of the others that are doing reality things, most of your audience still is, at least from my understanding, still tuning in through cable and watching it through those areas, but. Even though we started to see some reality TV that's been exclusive to these streaming services, it still hasn't been to the same extent that we see, like whether it's with Love & Hip Hop on VH1 or some of the other services. Why do you think that is? And do you think that'll change at all? 

[00:15:59] Mona Scott-Young: I think the formats have to evolve in order for us to find the right formula to live on the streamers. You know, those shows are about repeatability and about, you know, the binge-watching and, you know, for reality, there's something about that appointment television that tuning in week in and week out that I think plays into the idea that what is happening is happening to some extent in real-time, even though we know it isn't, and the ability to, you know, watch it all. I think it's just a different, it's a shift. It's a paradigm shift, and we have to figure out what the right formula is, what the right content play is to work in that arena. So there's a lot of conversations around that and everybody's trying to find like, kind of what is it right now what you're seeing on streamers are. Formatted docu-series, like real estate shows and, you know, those kind of, I'm trying to think of what are some of the docu-follows that are living. Probably the Kardashian show in Hulu is an example, right? That's kind of a beast of a different nature, right? There's a rabid audience there for the Kardashian clan that I think will watch no matter where it exists. So, you know, I'd love to see more conventional docu-follow find its way to the streamers. I think there's going to have to be a little bit of a fine-tuning in what that format looks like for it to really work there.

[00:17:29] Dan Runcie: Right. Because it isn't necessarily a binge release. I don't feel like that necessarily makes sense if you're trying to follow things. I think back to, it was Rhythm + Flow. This is almost three years ago at this point, but the show, you know, the competition show Cardi B and Chance and T.I., I think they did every week or every other week for three block episode of release, and I felt like that was okay. It wasn't too long that felt like it didn't make sense for Netflix, but it was just enough to capture some momentum. And I think back about that, I was like, Okay. 

[00:17:58] Mona Scott-Young: They're doing that as a format, right? It's a competition show. So those work. The competition shows work. The format shows, the real estate, the cooking, the anything, it's just that finding that right rhythm, that right lane for docu-follow is going to be the challenge.

[00:18:14] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. That's your point. And then, of course, the Kardashians may be a bit of an outlier just given the size of them, but you are, in a lot of ways, bringing either new stars or people who haven't necessarily had their headlines everywhere in quite some time to the stage, and that's a little bit of a different...

[00:18:31] Mona Scott-Young: That's a little bit of a different, yeah, a little bit of a different proposition, if you will.

[00:18:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. The other reason why I wanted to chat with you is because even before Love & Hip Hop and everything else, you had spent years in music, and you were one of the early ones that were looking at the opportunities for artists, working specifically with brands and looking back at whether it was 50's Vitamin water deal or Courvoisier with Busta.

[00:19:00] Mona Scott-Young: For Mountain Dew or Missy with Adidas, or I should say Adidas, and Reebok, and you know, A Tribe Called Quest and Sprite, right? It goes all the way back to that. 

[00:19:12] Dan Runcie: What do you think it was? 'Cause I felt like Violator was here when everyone else was here in terms of just pushing those things. There were a few others I know that were doing their thing, but it felt like you all were at least five years ahead of where everyone else was pushing them, pushing those things. 

[00:19:26] Mona Scott-Young: Well, and I appreciate that. For us, it was really always about how do we maximize for our clients, right? We were managers first. And then when we realized that there were all these other areas that we needed to educate ourselves in and get involved in in order to really manage our clients to the best of our ability, and help them expand their brands, and fully monetize, you know, their talents and their contributions to a culture that we saw was taking over every area of advertising and pop culture. We realized that, you know, the opportunities were way beyond just their music, way beyond understanding how to conduct the business of their music. It was about their branding, their cross, you know, marketing value, their ability to bridge the gap with brands and sponsors. So that was just a function of us really wanting to represent our clients not just the best of our ability to help them maximize to the fullest what they, you know, they were bringing to the table with their music and with their cultural relevance. So we understood that it was bigger than just the music. 

[00:20:41] Dan Runcie: And do you feel like a lot of the brand partners that you were pitching and talking to with about these opportunities at the time saw that it was bigger than just the music and wanted in because I look at the way things are now and the amount of deals and partnerships we see now. It was nothing compared to what it was like when you were doing these deals back then. 

[00:20:59] Mona Scott-Young: I mean, you know, it's interesting 'cause there was that period where they didn't quite understand what was happening with this, you know, music and the culture because it was always just across the board, Black, White, Asian, and understanding what that kind of point of connection was, right, with all of these kids. Was it the music? Was it the clothing? Was it the lifestyle? What exactly are they buying into? And I think we serve the very important role in helping them bridge that gap, right, giving them that understanding of what hip hop was culturally and all of its different touch points. And then it became about, well, can't we just tap this thing without having to necessarily put this talent front and center? We can just use the music. We can dress, you know, our folks in the clothing and getting them to understand that there was an authenticity, right, that came with the culture that you couldn't fake, and that if you were going to do it, it had to be done in a way that was mutually beneficial because we also couldn't afford to risk our clients' viability with their core audience. Because if they, you know, sold out, then they were done with the music. And that exchange, that dialogue, that conversation I think is what allowed us to position ourselves in a way that benefited our clients, that allowed us to become a gateway to the culture and to the music for a lot of these brands. And that allowed companies like Steve Stoute's Translation literally to exist based on being that, you know, cultural bridge. So it was a step up process of getting them, one, to understand what this thing called hip hop was, and then how it was influencing their consumers, and then how best to tap it in a way that, you know, didn't hurt the artists that they were exploiting. And I'll use the word exploit 'cause I think, you know, exploiting is simply taking full advantage of a situation or, you know, a space. And that's what it was at the end of the day. 

[00:23:12] Dan Runcie: And we definitely saw a lot of the success at the time with the number of deals that we were seeing. Were there any that you look back on that you were like, oh, you may have pitched that client, or you may have tried to push this one, they just weren't ready, but if this was now, it would've been, No question, this would've already happened? 

[00:23:27] Mona Scott-Young: You know, I always look back at that time fondly because I realized that we were at the forefront of, you know, an industry that nobody knew exactly what it was. Now when I hear, you know, branding, brand partnerships, you know, I'm like, okay, I guess that's what we were doing way back then. But I think I look back more fondly at the way we were able to leverage our talent into those deals, right? Busta with Mountain Dew started out as a print campaign, and by the time we were done, it had grown into this multimillion-dollar, you know, 360 television spots, everything. It started out as a radio campaign, actually, not even, it was just going to be his voice, right? And then it blew up into something more. It's just now it's par for the course. Now, you know, if you don't have a brand endorsement deal, if you're not, you know, aligned, people think you haven't made it right. But back then, I think it was a lot more challenging, a lot more difficult, and, you know, I think we broke a lot of barriers with the kinds of deals that we did. 

[00:24:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And I could imagine now that with the stars that are on Love & Hip Hop and the talent that you're working with now, some of them are probably trying to see, okay, can they reach out to you to get advice on these types of deals that they're getting? Do you get involved with any of that ever? 

[00:24:52] Mona Scott-Young: Yeah, you know, every once in a while. But the interesting thing is now they're sought after, right, because of their following. And all of these brands want them, you know, creating these organic posts so that folks can really believe they're drinking this slim tummy tea or whatever it is that they're hawking. But I think the value, understanding the value of their engagement with their fans is the most important thing for these guys, and I think they're all doing a fantastic job. I mean, I'm always surprised when it's like, oh, okay, well that's, you know, I don't really believe that they're eating or drinking or engaging in this activity, but more power to you. Go ahead. 

[00:25:33] Dan Runcie: Does any of this ever find a way to get itself into the show itself where folks are like, Okay, I have this partnership now, they'll give me extra money if I wear this Fashion Nova t-shirt in this season of Love & Hip Hop? 

[00:25:47] Mona Scott-Young: It's funny that you mentioned Fashion Nova because they are extremely aggressive, and they have, you know, they were very smart about the way they built their business, right? They just went out and got a bunch of brand ambassadors, and I think in the beginning it was for a box of free clothes. They had all of these people hawking their product, but the networks and the buyers, they're pretty savvy now. And, you know, they've got their ad sales departments, they still rely probably more than ever on their ad sales dollars. And so they're very, very leery of any kind of integrations, and there are opportunities to kind of go through the front door, do deals with them, buy ad time, and get real, you know, integrated placements. And sometimes, you know, they're also good about if it's an organic, you know, partnership with the talent and it's something potentially that factors into their story, they'll let it slide and let it make its way into the story. But they're a little bit savvy to the fact that, you know, sometimes the talent is getting paid for this and is promising the placement on the show as part of their deal in leveraging that. And yeah, they put the smack down on that. 

[00:27:01] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I could imagine because it's one of these things where, of course, it's more money into the show and I think everyone generally could benefit from it. But from the other perspective, you don't just want to turn the whole thing into sponsored content, right? 

[00:27:12] Mona Scott-Young: Yeah. I'm constantly saying to the talent, this is not going to be one big message commercial, you know? But listen, a lot of times the network isn't even participating in that income. They're just letting the talent, yeah, whatever deals that they have in place with these brand partners, they just let the talent hang onto it. So it doesn't really bring money to the show's bottom line. And depending on who the partner is, like somebody like Fashion Nova, the network definitely, you know, their antennas go up. But some of you know the smaller brands and especially. If it's the talent's brand, and they know that it's their business, like you'll always see Yandy washing her face with Yelle Skincare. You'll see Rasheeda doing a scene at the Pressed, you know, store or at the Frost Bistro. So if it's their businesses, the network is always happy to, you know, give them the opportunity to promote their brands and their businesses.

[00:28:05] Dan Runcie: Is there ever any pressure from the network to try to capture all of the value that the show is creating? 'Cause I know I'm hearing that from so many other areas in media and entertainment, where they're seeing what's being captured in their area, or they're seeing what's happening and what they're creating. They want to be able to capture more of that. How have those conversations been like with the network if they come up at all? 

[00:28:27] Mona Scott-Young: When you say capture more of it, you mean with the content or trying to find ways to exploit the brand? 

[00:28:32] Dan Runcie: The latter, trying to find ways to exploit the brand. 

[00:28:34] Mona Scott-Young: I mean, yeah, absolutely. It's a little bit of a tightrope, right, because they want to preserve the integrity of the brand. They want to protect the brand and not overexpose it or not hurt it by doing the wrong thing with the brand. But they certainly want to, you know, see the brand continue to evolve, which has been a big part of the staying power. And I think Viacom does a really good, you know, job at that when you think about Love & Hip Hop and the way that it's branched into, you know, all of the specials that we do and they have, you know, spinoffs that they do with the talent. And now they're beginning to do smaller capsule shows that are going to be coming out, you know, whether it's like watch party- type shows or, you know, getaway trip- type shows. So they're very careful about not diluting and over-exposing the brand, but they're very good about continuing to build on the brand so that it evolves and, you know, continues to have a long life. 

[00:29:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I feel like the longevity you've already had speaks a lot to this. I'm curious though, 'cause I know in other interviews, people have often asked you about how your show is positioned relative to some of the other reality shows and whether or not you are portraying certain people in the best light. And I'm always curious, one of the things I was wondering is that more so chatter where people are talking about these things? Or have any of those conversations actually impacted anything you've either done with the show or the show's success in any way? 

[00:30:06] Mona Scott-Young: I mean, a lot of it is chatter because you know, in all fairness, when I watched the other shows, there really isn't anything much different happening on those shows in terms of the way the cast members are expressing themselves in any given moment. I think the increased scrutiny on our show has one to do, and I say it very honestly, with the word hip hop and the title, right? I think that there's this preconceived, you know, stigma attached to this huge genre that is literally pop culture right now. So it's almost ridiculously laughable that people still want to treat hip hop as some kind of a subculture, you know, of any kind. But I think the fact that the word hip hop is in the title makes people put us under a microscope, under a magnifying glass in a much different way than they do with, you know, shows with the word Housewives or Beverly Hills in the title. But if you look at the reactions and you look at some of the situations, they're not different at all. So for me, it is chatter, right, because I think the strength is in the numbers and the viewership. I think that's where you know honestly that there is something very relatable about this show, no matter what people want to say or think, because of the sheer volume of, you know, folks who tune in week in, week out to see the show, the staying power that the show has had, the influence that the show has had, whether it's music or, you know, the number of shoutouts that the show gets, the number of mentions that it gets, what happens on social media whenever the show is on air. There's a stronghold there that I think is undeniable. And so there's that whole saying about, you know, we build things up just to bring them down, and we've seen that happen with so many different cultural and iconic, you know, things, and I just think that it's par for the course with this franchise. 

[00:32:08] Dan Runcie: And I also think you've seen that in the range of folks that tune in as well because I think sometimes the type of content that you create, people will often say, oh, well that's meant for a certain type of person. And it's like, well, it's not really the case 'cause there's people of all ranges of income, however you want to measure success. 

[00:32:26] Mona Scott-Young: Yeah, it's actually pretty mind-boggling even to this day when, you know, for a long time I did the VOs at the top of the show, so the voice has become a little bit of, you know, its own personality, and, a lot of people don't know what I look like, but the minute I opened my mouth, and it'll be like middle-aged, you know, white people and young, very young kids. And I'm like, why, you know, are you even watching this show? You should be watching Nickelodeon. And so it's interesting to me the broad range of audience that it's found. And again, I always go back to the relatability, and I always go back to the connectivity with the stories, and I think that that's what people gravitate towards. 

[00:33:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think that's always going to be there as long as the show continues to evolve as well. And I'm thinking you were probably already thinking about several seasons ahead of now, several years ahead and now, but I'm very curious to see what is this next generation of talent that is going to be into your show, the generation that grew up on TikTok, the generation that grew up with a lot of the things? I think a lot of the talent on your show, whether they're Gen X or millennials, more so, okay, they had their run, but eventually, it's going to be the Gen Z folks and more of them that are going to be on the show more regularly, how that's going to shape not just the things they talk about and everything else, but also as streaming and other things evolve, how the show continues to move, and how the show continues to grow from that perspective. So I'd love to hear what you think the future is going to look like, let's say five years down the road of how this show may continue to evolve.

[00:34:01] Mona Scott-Young: Oh, wow. I mean, you know, it's always been about the cast, and they've shaped kind of the feel and the content within the show. So if you're talking about, you know, five years from now, there's going to be a cast there that is reflective of where we are with music, technology, the culture, and those are going to be the stories that we're telling so hard to predict. But like I said, the key and the magic of the franchise has always been that the brand, you know, acted as kind of a bubble within which you cycled in the talent. And five years from now, there's going to be the talent doing what they do, how they do it, and we'll be right there with those cameras to capture it.

[00:34:46] Dan Runcie: Yes, it'd be exciting to see. So in the next couple of months though, what should people stay in tune for before we wrap things up here? What should people look out for? 

[00:34:54] Mona Scott-Young: Oh, so many things that we're doing. I mean, you know, we spent a lot of time talking about the Love & Hip Hop franchise, but as a company, we have so many other projects that we're engaged in and that we're doing. And one in particular coming October 27th and November 3rd actually is the actual premiere, but Hip Hop Homicides is a show that we're doing on WEtv, 50 Cent and G-Unit, Monami and Lionsgate came together with WEtv, and that is a show we're very excited about, very proud of. And it just, again, utilizing, you know, hip hop culture as kind of the foundation, but it's looking at those staggering number of murders that have occurred within our culture that still remain unsolved and even some of them were folks are, you know, serving time for these murders. They're still questions out there that have never been answered. And so Van Lathan is our host and he does a very active, you know, boots-on-the-ground kind of journey to a bunch of different cities where we take a close look at these murders and talk to family members and fans alike. And it's really, to me, a very, very fresh look at these murders that have plagued our community. 

[00:36:08] Dan Runcie: Oh, nice. That'll be a good one. And I've always liked Van in everything that he's done. I know he's done a lot of stuff with The Ringer recently, but no, he'll be good. I'm excited for this. 

[00:36:16] Mona Scott-Young: No, he's great at it. And Hip Hop Homicides on WEtv. Yep. November 3rd and we're excited for that one. So that's the next thing coming down the pike. 

[00:36:27] Dan Runcie: Great stuff. Great stuff. Well, Mona, this is great. Excited for you. Excited for everything coming up from Monami Entertainment. And if people want to follow along with you or with everything that's happening, where should they check in to follow you? 

[00:36:38] Mona Scott-Young: They can check on Instagram, Twitter, all social platforms. Mona Scott-Young or Monami Productions, @monamiproductions. 

[00:36:47] Dan Runcie: All right, great. Thanks again. This is great. 

[00:36:50] Mona Scott-Young: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

[00:36:54] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2313 no Inside Hannibal Buress’ Pivot From Comedy To Rap https://www.trapital.com/podcast Hannibal Buress has carved a name for himself in comedy over the past two decades. But now he’s foregoing that part of his career for a fresh identity — Eshu Tune, his rap alter-ego. The name pays homage to a “trickster god” in Nigerian mythology. A rap career has been in the back of Hannibal’s mind but the career pivot wasn’t seriously put into motion until 2020. Earlier that year, he put out a comedy special, “Miami Nights.” While promoting it at home during lockdowns, Hannibal felt a spark missing. That, plus the added alone time from not performing at comedy clubs, finally pushed Hannibal into the studio.  Since then, Hannibal has largely dedicated himself to rap and rap only. His eight-track, self-titled EP dropped earlier this year. Live rap show performances followed that. An agency deal was inked with UTA this summer. And soon, Hannibal will hit the studio to prepare for his debut album, which he plans to drop on his 40th birthday next April. Hannibal took me through his comedy-to-rap journey over the past two years on the show. Here’s what we covered in our interview: [2:54] Introducing Eshu Tune the rapper [4:17] What led Hannibal to the career pivot [6:53] Goals of debut EP  [10:11] Benefits of being independent artist [14:34] Following Too $hort at a Bay Area show [19:52] Getting a performing residency in LA [21:29] Challenging himself with music [26:52] Difference between Hannibal’s comedy and rap fanbase [29:08] Will Hannibal still do comedy? [31:36] Has the changing climate of comedy impacted Hannibal? [34:01] Previous comedians that went into music [37:50] Response from rap community to Hannibal’s career pivot [38:52] Eshu Tune’s next album drop Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Hannibal Buress, @hannibalburess     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Hannibal Buress: I got some stuff, I got 'em locked and loaded, just, you know, got to go get 'em out. That's one thing too, is since I am independent, I don't feel, I just kind of do it when it feels right, when it genuinely feels right to do. It's no pressure. It's just like, okay, do I truly want to do this? Ain't no exec, hey, you got to do, there's nobody doing that, so I have to make that decision, which is a gift. I wouldn't say it's a curse, but it forces that accountability. [00:00:35] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Hannibal Buress. You likely know his name from his comedy and his acting, but this episode is all about his music. Hannibal Buress has released an eight-track EP under the name Eshu Tune, and that is his artist that is creating hip-hop music. And we talked all about why he chose to start this new chapter in his career, why music was important to him, and how he sees things moving forward. Hannibal had had a career of dabbling in music every now and then. He actually had beaten Open Mike Eagle in a rap battle a couple of years back. And it's something that he had tapped into, but it really wasn't until the pandemic, and a lot of us had the time to really think and tap into what was most important to us. And he was able to take this on not only as a new challenge for his career, but as a new opportunity to do something that he always wanted to do, but knowing that he could both continue to leverage the platform that he has as a comedian and as an actor, both from a financial perspective, but also from an exposure perspective. We also talked about his upcoming residency, how he's been positioning himself to get booked on shows and other things, and how important this is for him right now. So it was great to tap in. This was also the first episode recorded in Trapital's new home. I have a new office and studio here, and it's been great to get everything set up, and it's been great to record these in person, too, because, listen, it's great to do things remotely. A lot of them have been that way, but it's just a different chemistry that you get when you can do them in person. So it was great that Hannibal and I could connect while he was in town. Here's our conversation. Hope you enjoy it. All right. Today we got the one and only Hannibal Buress. [00:02:41] Hannibal Buress: What's up, man?  [00:02:41] Dan Runcie: Mr. Eshu Tune now, though.  [00:02:43] Hannibal Buress: Eshu Tune, yeah, yeah.  [00:02:44] Dan Runcie: Last we talked, it was all about comedy. We're getting ready for a special that you had Miami Nights, but now we're about to talk about your music career, man.  [00:02:52] Hannibal Buress: Yeah, for sure, man.  [00:02:53] Dan Runcie: So who is Eshu Tune?  [00:02:54] Hannibal Buress: Eshu Tune is my musical alter ego. Eshu is from Yoruban mythology, Nigerian mythology, the trickster God. I was looking for a stage name there, so I just looked up African mythology and I just connected with that description. It kind of felt like me and some of the things I've done and, yeah, it just felt right. It really was a big help to kind of separate the worlds a little bit just 'cause now I look at, you know, Eshu as, okay, we can build them together 'cause now, I can if I want to do a little bit of comedy on this shows, it's like, Hey, yeah, they'll both be there. [00:03:34] Dan Runcie: Right, right, right.  [00:03:35] Hannibal Buress: I changed shirts. You know, I can think of you like, you know, Hannibal's t-shirts. Eshu's in a red shirt or something, you know? So it's been fun. And so I'm excited for the growth, and performing has been really exciting, and a lot of dope stuff coming up. [00:03:53] Dan Runcie: So talk to me through the journey a bit because I know this is something that you spent a lot of time on in the pandemic. And last time we talked about it, you were getting ready to release Miami Nights, and this was around the same time that you had started working on music. So what was your mindset at that time? You got this big comedy special coming out, but you also are thinking about this new career opportunity. [00:04:17] Hannibal Buress: My mindset? 2020, putting out the special during that time was hella weird just because it wasn't the usual motions and movements that you have with putting out a special, doing events, doing press in person. You know, I did The Daily Show, but it was on Skype. And it just felt weird doing television from my place 'cause you still get wired kind of, but then you're just wired at the crib. It's like, man, oh, I'm not getting in the car to go somewhere else, you just there like, oh. [00:04:54] Dan Runcie: Right, right.  [00:04:55] Hannibal Buress: I remember doing, I did First Take with Stephen A. Smith. Something for Last Dance, just talking about Last Dance. And I remember just, I kept messing with them changing jackets.  [00:05:08] Dan Runcie: Oh, I remember that. [00:05:13] Hannibal Buress: Molly was giving me sass. Oh, thanks for being so professional. I'm trying to, like, you want me to make a great statement about Last Dance? Look, oh, yeah, Last Dance. What's up with that? I'm trying to have some fun, make some real memories here. Nobody will care about my take on...  [00:05:30] Dan Runcie: It's a documentary, right? It's not like it's an event that happened last night.  [00:05:35] Hannibal Buress: Yeah. If I make a great point about the '96 Bulls, '98 Bulls in 10 years, but people don't care if I'm was chaotic as hell. I need to put that clip back up actually. That was really fun. I was sweating and shit. Yeah, it was a good time. But, yeah, putting out the special then, it was weird, man. And I wanted the music, I started really diving in in November of '20 when I was out in Hawaii. I kind of, it was nice to be able to lock in, focus. I've always wanted to do it and would finally find the time. And the time was always there, honestly, but I wasn't as good as maneuvering time as I am now. 'Cause looking back, I could have been on the road after gigs, instead of going to the club, could have been booking studio time, that type of thing, or, you know, I'm glad it happened when it happened.  [00:06:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. I think, too, I've looked a lot about how you chose to roll this out, right? It's not like you just did one single, let me drop in and see what happens. You had an eight-track LP, oh, EP that you put out specifically for it. What was your goal in terms of the release? Was there a certain response that you wanted to have or a certain emphasis you wanted to have with how you chose to put it out as an EP? [00:06:53] Hannibal Buress: Yeah. And initially, I was going to do singles, the single strategy, but then I had a bunch of songs and I said, let me just get these out and see how I want to do it. Like, if I want to do videos for stuff, which I am still going to do the visuals on things and get 'em out. But it was just after a while. It was just, let me just do it. And I didn't follow the proper practices of, you know, get it to the DSPs with this much time, to the best time, like, all the stuff that I know you're supposed to do to give your release the best chance. But I just feel like it'll get its due when it's due, you know what I mean, whether it is when I put out videos later this month or next month or down the line. It's my first project. So whether it's crazy now or crazy in five years, it's always my first project. So it'll be there and it just felt good to get it out and have it out ' cause then the music got better afterwards, the stuff I started recording. And I still like the song, like 1-3 Pocket. I like 1-3 Pocket. And that was 1-3 Pocket, that's the motherfucker hit. Like when we made it, yeah, this bowling song's going to go crazy. Hell yeah, we made a bowling banger, but now I got other songs. I'm like, okay, I was wrong. Well, maybe I wasn't wrong, but it's just, the music is getting better. And so it's nice to feel that and feel that improvement and the progression. And so that'll keep on happening indefinitely. You know, if you keep on working on it, keep on releasing, keep performing, it's going to get better. So it's nice to have that feeling and, and hear that in the music and like even hearing how the music sounds. If I record the day after a show, that music sounds good 'cause you can kind of hear the clarity, you know, you already got the energy. So it's been exciting, man. [00:08:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I get the feeling that 1-3 Pocket was a song you thought was going to be the one and that's a one, but I feel like Veneers is the one that I feel is your anthem.  [00:08:57] Hannibal Buress: Veneers worked before I even put it out, and I performed it 'cause the hook is slower and the beat is chill. It feels, yeah, Veneers is the one I think people like more than the song that has really inside bowling terminology in it. Surprise the song about teeth is more accessible than the song about the bowling pins. Like, even people that love bowling have said to me, what is the 1-3 Pocket?  [00:09:33] Dan Runcie: 'Cause some people would think you're talking about like billiards or like, you know, like shooting pool or something like that. [00:09:37] Hannibal Buress: Nah, it's just a, yeah, it's the headpin and the pin to the right. I got to put out a video for 1-3 Pocket. I got the lyric video out. I got to get the official video out, a couple of them. I might, you know, we'll see if I get on stubborn mode and start putting out three, four videos for a song. That's when I really, I'll start really lighting up, just going crazy with the visuals. Yeah. I was waiting to see the music videos. I'm glad you mentioned that you got the lyric video up.  [00:10:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And of course, you know, like that's a great way to get the views and engagement up, but yeah, seeing the Eshu Tune visual character, I feel like that is, you know, the next piece of this. [00:10:11] Hannibal Buress: Yeah, I've been holding off a bit on the music videos 'cause I know when I got to know, when I do officials, that's when things are really shifting in a way. And so I don't want to rush it, but, you know, they come in over the next month or so, is when the visuals start. I got some recorded already. I got some for Back In The City. I recorded in Thailand actually. When I was in Thailand and I looked on Eventbrite and it was a restaurant packaging conference at the convention center. I was like, let's just go here. And I went and it was all this interesting, just different machinery and robotics. Me and my lady just walked through, something just to, you know, just a different environment. I said, man, well, I'm over here. What else am I going to do in Thailand and it's a convention? I have to shoot a music video. So I came back two days later, shot the video there. And so I got that. We got one for Closed Mouths. We got a Pocket video, got a version of the Veneers video, but I want to do a story version. So, yeah, I got some stuff, I got 'em locked and loaded, just, you know, got to go get 'em out. That's one thing too, is since I am independent, I don't feel, I just kind of do it when it feels right, when it genuinely feels right to do. It's no pressure. It's just like, okay, do I truly want to do this? Ain't no exec, hey, you got to do, there's nobody doing that, so I have to make that decision, which is a gift. I wouldn't say it's a curse, but it forces that accountability. [00:11:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah, with that, too, I feel like, with you, you're an independent artist who also has the luxury of this platform of your comedy that has given you not just the resources, but the platform to be able to get booked on shows or to be able to get at festivals or other things like that. How do you look overall in terms of how you view your career as an independent artist and wanting to see that through? Do you see a major label in the future? Do you see building what you have clearly with the resources that you have from your comedy and acting to be able to push off for that?  [00:12:19] Hannibal Buress: I think the major label thing isn't something I'm chasing. I would hear them out, you know what I mean? I would take a meeting or a call just to hear the right pitch and see. But before I even would do that, I would have to give myself at least a year or so of operating full speed.  [00:12:42] Dan Runcie: Right. [00:12:42] Hannibal Buress: 'Cause now I'm in the coast, I'm doing a good amount of shows and having fun, done a couple of festivals this year with, you know, no visuals out. So I would have to give myself all of 23 of like going, you know, with a full staff, you know what I mean? My whole infrastructure, putting out everything, like really, really going crazy merch, all the whole thing, and then see how I like that. And then see what we could do from there. But for now I kind of got an idea of how I want to do it. And a lot of the things that a label can provide, I've been to some of these spots before while I promoting standup or touring or different things, I've been around. I'm sure there's other things or different cracks and crevices they can operate in, but there's a lot of things that, you know, I'm able to pull off 'cause I'm independent, but it's not a true, like in the same kind of thing. 'cause I've got the visibility. So it's a good help. The music still has to be good, too, and I'm cognizant of that, where I want to be, you know, I don't want to just be in the spots to be in them.  [00:13:52] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:13:52] Hannibal Buress: I want to be in the spots and really doing my thing and having a dope show and, you know, justifying the spot. [00:13:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah.  [00:14:00] Hannibal Buress: Yeah.  [00:14:00] Dan Runcie: Because I think the thing that works out for you with it well is so many folks signed with the record label because they want to be able to get the distribution that can at least get them some global recognition in reach. But then that also gives them to being able to do shows, right? And you are able to get a lot of these shows on your own, just given the connections and the influence that you have. What has that process been like specifically with you getting out? 'Cause I know that you were up in San Francisco a couple of months ago. You did, you know, we had the 420 thing up here. What has that process been?  [00:14:34] Hannibal Buress: That's through friends, you know, old friends that I've worked with before or talk with and people that, yeah, my homie Normani helped put that together, the 420. So it's just people that believe in what I'm doing, that I have a history with, that, you know, see some opportunities. So Too $hort went on, I forget who the DJ from the Bay was, but Too $hort went on and I was like, oh man, I'm going on after Too $hort in the Bay? With friends?  [00:15:07] Dan Runcie: Blow the whistle finishes and now...  [00:15:10] Hannibal Buress: It was crazy and I got brand new music. Brand new. That was two days after the project dropped. But it was a fun time. I enjoy it so much, man. Even that show didn't go how I thought it was going to go, but it still was fun, you know?  [00:15:34] Dan Runcie: Wait, how did you think that show was going to go? [00:15:36] Hannibal Buress: How did I think it was? I thought it was going to, in my mind, and it's the blessing of being mostly optimistic on the performance side might just drop the project, it's circulated, two days after, it's the Bay. I'm going to hit the stage going Veneers. Yeah, get out there, and then, you know, they didn't, they was listening, but it just wasn't, you know, it's just new rap sometimes it's tough. And so also then I still, my music performance chops are a bit more developed now, too. It's been some time, so I'm better at engaging the crowd, even if they don't know the music 'cause I think, at first, bringing a lot of standup energy into it, meaning, you know, you get the, Hey, yeah, say, yeah, but, you know, you got to, and so getting used to just monologue and even just the body language, too, microphone holding, body language, like, you know, that whole thing. Still a bit rusty now. And there's a lot of room to grow. I like coming back to spots, too, after you did, so it will be some folks, they had a good time there, too. It was dope. Had another show that night too. I did LA later that night with the full band. So it was just a dope experience to have two shows in the Bay, LA, same night, 420. I'll never forget that at all.  [00:17:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's an interesting crowd too, because their crowd is high as hell, and it is a midweek thing, too. So it's not the same way of, let's say a music festival where it's like, oh, three o'clock at the East stage, Eshu Tune is going to be there, right, so that's definitely a little bit of a different vibe than I feel like what that event is.  [00:17:21] Hannibal Buress: Yeah, it was. But the one good thing, another good thing about is that I rehearsed right before. Like I landed, went to a rehearsal space, and then I ran through it. So when I got on stage, I felt good 'cause I was freshly rehearsed. So even though I wasn't rocking out, I kind of was in the zone, in a good space. But when I had a show in Philly for Adult Swim Fest, that one we were tapped in, had the band. I love having the band up there just because I feel like, you know, when you got the band, that's just a lot of energy on stage and you got to, I feel like, giving them a reason to be like, okay, why are we playing for this motherfucker? So then you got to bring the energy up even more to justify the band, you know, so that's always fun. [00:18:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So how often are you doing shows right now?  [00:18:15] Hannibal Buress: My last show was I popped out at this open mic in LA a couple of days ago, then before that was, what?  [00:18:24] Dan Runcie: An open mic for music, to clarify. [00:18:26] Hannibal Buress: Open mic for music. Yeah, open mic for music, did a few songs. And doing Wild 'N Out next week in Atlanta and probably do a popup or something in Atlanta, maybe. And then I'm starting up a residency in LA, six weeks at Grand Star Jazz Bar. That's going to start on September 26th, every Monday until October 31st 'cause I wanted to get that structure in. And then, you know, I used to host at Knitting Factory in Brooklyn and that kind of, like, having that consistency of doing a regular spot. I hadn't done that in a minute. And so when I did the last show at Knitting Factory, that location closed down, I did and so it reminded me of that energy and just of that, you know, having that regular spot where people know they can see me 'cause you can't always link up with friends or grab lunch and all of that. So you can kinda have the residency, people know where to find you. So I want to do that. I'm excited about doing that 'cause I think that'll help the writing 'cause it'll be like, okay, I got this show. I definitely have this show on Monday. Maybe I'll try this new song there. And then the rest of the week can kind of flow off of that. So I'm super excited about these six shows. I put 'em all on sale at once and it's nice to see they're flowing, you know? And so it is going to be, it's going to be a good time and then we'll see how we want to operate from there. But definitely doing those six in a row, man.  [00:19:47] Dan Runcie: What was it like to get that process going for the residency specifically? [00:19:52] Hannibal Buress: It was, you know, I went to the spot at Grand Star. I saw something there I've been there twice. It is really close to my spot. And then I just reached out to the owner online, walked over there, talked to him, told him what I was trying to do, told him I wanted Mondays. He was like, all right, you take the door, I'll take the bar. I ain't dealing with your ticketing, like this it. And then I was like, all right, let's get it. It was pretty straightforward and simple, you know. ' Cause I realized I wasn't, something about LA, it was making me stagnant on a live performance side and I was doing more gigs out of town. And I've done some stuff, but I wasn't really consistent locally. And so I just realized I had to create that. I couldn't be, you know, annoyed with the nightlife or performing if I wasn't really trying to do something about it.  [00:20:45] Dan Runcie: Right, right.  [00:20:46] Hannibal Buress: When I have that ability, it's not that tough to like, Hey, this is the place I do a show, you know? So I'm really hyped 'cause they'll be, you know, have a comedian or two and two or three music acts and get the book stuff that I'm a fan of and tape 'em. And the excitement of doing a show, like putting on a regular show after doing it for a while and doing it now with knowledge and knowing how to build the vibe and promote and all those things. It's going to be a blast.  [00:21:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah. With that type of show specifically, you are also staying in the same spot. And I know that probably helps from a lifestyle perspective too. You have a young daughter, you know, you're not trying to, you know, be on the road, maybe, to the same extent. [00:21:29] Hannibal Buress: Yeah, just the consistency of this is what, you know, for everybody, for the team, for the camera people, by the third show's, like, okay, this is my spots right here. Everybody being, you know, the timing of it, and it's just, I got to create that consistency for myself and that external pressure to do 'cause they're not all like everything else. 'Cause then once like, okay, Monday, this is what Mondays are no matter what. So then it's like, okay, well, it's Tuesday now since we only got six others. So like, okay, one of those has to be a studio day or this type of day or that. Or, you know, it forces the structure for the rest of it. So it's something I haven't had in a while like that consistency. So, you know, when I did have it in New York, it kind of led to the most productive times in my career and, yeah, the most profitable.  [00:22:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, I feel like I'm seeing, hearing more artists talk about that, especially, we're seeing what's happening in Vegas. So many more artists, especially while they're still in their prime, taking the residencies there, too. And you're starting to see them more in different cities. And I like how you did where you're like, yeah, you essentially created your own opportunity where you're at. So and I feel like we're going to start to see more of that as I'm just seeing trends of how artists are thinking about doing things and where it makes sense to monetize in and where it doesn't. [00:22:50] Hannibal Buress: Yeah. Just, you know, it's like, Hey, I booked myself for six, you know, I'm here. But even, you know, with that, it's a bunch of different things. And look, you could change up the core each week, you know what I mean? Change up the merch or change up the drinks or change, you know, all these different elements to keep it fresh since you learn in the space and learning the crowd. And you get to know the fans 'cause I'm sure, you know, folks go return, you know? So and having that data, too, of seeing that, you know, yeah, who you see exactly who I'm seeing, who’s buying the tickets and blah, blah, blah, and so can reach out direct. Thank you for your time, who are you listening to, you know? now it's like a kind of, It's going to be a new phase, man. And that's one thing, too, with the music is that younger hunger, 'cause it's a newer thing. It still has that feeling of I don't know what's going to happen. Right. You know, I could try to make things or put things, but the other parts of it, when you do that, make other things happen when you just, you know, action cause reaction. Even going to that open mic that I did the other night and ask this other person, Hey, come to this show, you know, shows beget shows. And so it's nice to have that momentum and that feel because the comedy side, I don't want to say it's predictable, but the goals kind of are, you could change up your special and, and different things, but the goals like, oh, blah, blah, blah, special, blah, blah, blah, move and you do this, too, but it feels super blank canvas a little bit. [00:24:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I get the impression from you that there's part of that that is enjoyable. It's that challenge. It's like what keeps it fresh in a way, because, at least for comedy, you mentioned the predictability of it. Like, you knew what would work, you're getting the calls. Like, you know, you're still getting them up to this point. So this is an opportunity to be like, no, this is something I've always wanted to do. Let me tap in here and explore the unknown because, at least from the comedy side, even though that could be unknown to someone else, but you've been in this for decades now, you know?  [00:24:50] Hannibal Buress: Yeah. At the open mic, it was a bunch of other artists, that was having the same conversations. Like, I didn't know you rapped, I didn't know you rapped, I didn't know you rapped. Like, yeah, I guess that's why I'm here. So now you know I rapped. And so to have, you know, it's still building that, you know, through word of mouth, through performing and, you know, a solid amount of time, but it's happening piece by piece where I'm, you know, seeing folks in public. Oh, I see you doing the music, yeah, keep doing, you know. Yeah, it feels good, man. It feels exciting. And it is just going to get better and keep learning and, you know, I got my drum set, you know, practice more, got keys, got to, you know, I want to in five years be full on musician be able to move around the whole kit, the whole, you know, all the instruments and, and really do a show show, you know? [00:25:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah. By show show. What do you mean?  [00:25:47] Hannibal Buress: Like, being able to, you know, like even have a band, like this one, I'm on keys, for this one... [00:25:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah, yeah.  [00:25:52] Hannibal Buress: But not fucking around on keys. Like, actually killing that shit. This one I'm hopping on the kit and like, not bullshit. I don't want to, you know, half-ass it like, oh yeah, he's up there. He's having fun. Then get the picture. No, I wanted to, you know, actually, be technically proficient at it. And I'm willing to work to get to that spot too. You know, but you got to lock in for that. So that's the real, real goal is to be able to even, in seven years, pop in on somebody's set only for drums and, like, nail it, you know what I mean? Like, okay, like he playing on somebody else's music, you know, and it like, yeah, that's the goal. Even if I'm 47, 50 when I'm able to do it, that's what I want to do.  [00:26:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I feel like with you, too, you talked a little bit about the fan base piece of it, and you be able to see who's coming to the shows and seeing who the fans are. Do you feel like the fan base is slightly different in any way from your comedy fan base?  [00:26:52] Hannibal Buress: It will be. It will be. Right now, there's a lot of overlap 'cause people that might be thinking, they're getting the comedy show and show up for the music and then they like, oh, okay, that was better than that. I didn't know that was happening. But there'll be some folks that weren't into my comedy at all that was like, okay, I like this I'm seeing some folks, I did Sway In The Morning, the freestyle, some people are like, I like this better than his comedy. And now I'm thinking me too. I do too, yeah. And then there'll be people that never knew I did comedy once, then when the music is discovered, if they find it through the algorithm or something, they'll be some folks like, what? This guy got four comedy specials, you know, especially when things start tapping on an international scale. If When I started touring in Asia, going over, you know, folks that they just find the music through the promoter or whoever, and then they like, what? You do music? So I'm excited for that part of it too, man. It's nice to, you know, and then I might rerelease Miami Nights, but just put music videos in between that shit. [00:28:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah.  [00:28:05] Hannibal Buress: Like, oh, y'all want Miami Nights? Well, here. And it’ll be like, and so, and then I said 2Chainz and like Veneers, Veeners, 1-3 Pocket, you know. There's a lot of moves to, you know, that just because I have that this older stuff and this older material to be able to maneuver and, you know, run ads against and all these different things, man. So it's just a lot of possibilities and ideas. It is fun, it's a fun time. Every day, I'm lit up, like excited, just because, you know, there's so much to do and so many different ideas. I'm and so it's just, I'm fully locked in, yeah.  [00:28:45] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Where do you feel like your comedy itself fits within your career? 'Cause I know I've listened to past interviews you've done and you've said that, nope, I'm locked in on music right now. But I also know that you had said in other interviews that okay, maybe in three years, if I do another comedy special or make it all even stronger. So where does your comedy fit in for you right now?  [00:29:08] Hannibal Buress: I could still do it. Because I did it last night at this private gig. And I did it when we did the last night at Knitting Factory, I planned on doing 10 minutes and I ended up going on a couple of tangents, did it in 20, 30. That was partially 'cause of the history of the room and that energy there and that's where I built that soul. And I still can write, you know, I do banter in between. I just don't think I foresee just me kind of grinding out in the clubs or, you know, trying to do for weekends for a while, unless it's just purely to pay for some last-minute music expense. It would be just purely that, if I'm at an improv or doing it if I'm billed as a standup publicly, that's where it's at right now. Even I did for the gig last night, I brought a keys player, Preach Balfour, he plays for my show sometimes, but it was just, I didn't feel like having the emptiness of just pure waiting for laughs. It's not going to be with a keys players the whole time and I'm telling these stories, these jokes, but it's not going to be dead in the room just because. It's like, I'm not giving y'all that as an audience. I'm not giving you the ability to have this shit be silent at the very least after I say something, it's going to be beautiful keys planted as motherfucker. So it's just that exercise of just the grind of what it takes to stay sharp as a standup, I don't feel like doing that anymore. I just find the music to be more enjoyable. And just, it has more, yeah, you just can go into a different direction, like everything don't have to be funny or everything don't have to be one level, you know what I mean? And so maybe down the line now, another one or, but as far as like working, working, I don't see it happening, yeah.  [00:31:15] Dan Runcie: Has any of the reaction to how comedians have either been perceived or how they're being called upon to respond to particular things, especially in the past few years with how things happening on Twitter, has any of that impacted how you feel are your relationship to comedy or making it at all? [00:31:36] Hannibal Buress: No, man. 'cause you just have to, you don't have to do anything out here unless you're on a show where you do that and you're contractually obligated. But even that is still a choice, you know what I'm saying? Everything is a choice. We could live in the woods, man, with no electricity if we choose to. We choose to be out here and perform, play video games, move about, you know, born into this, but you don't have to do none of the shit, all of it, all of it's made up.  [00:32:11] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:32:12] Hannibal Buress: Yeah.  [00:32:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because I feel like as you mentioned, yeah, a lot of it being made up probably makes people almost forget that they do have a choice in a lot of this because I feel like what I've seen or what I've heard from other comics sometimes is that just because of how things are with the climate or how people feel like they need to respond to particular things that there are comics that feel different, especially how things have happened, post-pandemic. But I feel like your mentality is a bit more like, Hey, we really don't have to like, just like whether it's people being canceled or people having backlash for things they say like, comics don't need to fit into fall into that. [00:32:51] Hannibal Buress: You can just do what you want, you know? And that's one thing. And it's not to judge or say, oh, it's wrong. I see why people would feel pressure. And I get that, too, but it's, after a while you just really like, oh, it's now that I know exactly what I enjoy, and I know the spots where I am truly having fun and losing track of time and enjoying life. And so I just try to spend as much time in those spots and spaces as I can and leave the other shit alone. It takes practice. It's a great theory. It ain't fully perfect, but it's a solid system for me.  [00:33:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, yeah. Has there been a bit of a connection to other comedians that have went into music? Thinking about something like a Jamie Foxx or someone like that, that, you know, someone else like yourself, multi-talented and has, you know, had success in both areas. Is there kind of like a, okay, you know, you see that others have done this, or do you really feel like, no, this is even more unique thing?  [00:34:01] Hannibal Buress: I respect, definitely respect what they've done. The timing is different for how I'm doing it. So that's why it's kind of, it's tough to compare a little bit the approach because it is been a minute. But it makes it interesting for me just from having stuff to talk about, too, for doing it so long 'cause sometimes I'm like, maybe I should have started when I was 23, but I think it happened when it was supposed to happen, and it happened when I was ready for it to really happen. But yeah, I watched, you know, like Jamie is amazing, you know? What Gambino's done, it's really dope. I saw Lil Duval write his Living My Best Life, was popping. I saw him.  [00:34:42] Dan Runcie: That was a good song.  [00:34:43] Hannibal Buress: He did good with that one. He was at the Stress Factory in Jersey as the song was peaking, and he was definitely too big for that room, but it made the energy... [00:34:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah. [00:34:55] Hannibal Buress: He was, like, crazy. He hit the stage to it. Like it was dope to see, man, like I was genuinely excited, and you could feel that he was hyped about it too, man. So it is dope to see when people just go for it in that way, and then we just making this shit, you can really do anything. I have to remind myself of that, too. Just really do anything, man. Just, you know, just go for this shit. I got this song, No Whip. It is a freestyle. It's a 7-minute freestyle about how I was living in Hawaii last year. I bought a car there,, and then I took a trip and then we ended up moving, but I didn't go back to like send the car and I've been planning to, but it's just kind of one of them things where I just, out of sight out of mind. And it ain't really, you know, causing a strain on my life, right? But it is, it's kind of, I bought this whip left in Hawaii, blah blah. And it's like, it's a loose freestyle. And I'm like, you know what, man, I'm going to shoot this part here, part in Hawaii, and just keep it at seven minutes 'cause you can just do that. The instinct is like, oh no, maybe I need to, I'm being repetitive, so maybe I should cut. I'm like, no, shoot that shit rough. Like, make it look as dope as possible. Like, shoot it rough freestyle dope and have fun and then just let it fly and just don't put the constraints on yourself unnecessarily. It's easy to try to overedit sometimes or get it. And so it's just, getting better at trusting myself, which was the initial hurdle It was just, okay, let me do this. There was nobody like, you can't make music, man. What are you, like? It was kind of me battling initially. And then once I dropped it and then, you know, now, okay. And then just rewiring my brain to, okay, I am doing this and keep doing it. It's like, okay, well, we are doing this for real, you know, no matter, no matter what. That's why I find it, like, absurd when people reach out and like, stop. That's weird. Like, you realize I'm a very, I'm a very stubborn person. Like, I'm not doing it to show you up. Like, this is like, I'm already way more locked in than you could ever imagine. So, you know, why you would ever tell me to stop. It's weird. But then I know that that person's not locked in on whatever they want to do if the time to tell me to stop. Yeah, but it's that I don't even get mad is just more like what, what? That's a weird thing to like, why stop? You realize even if my music was completely trash, I would still be able to figure it out from a marketer standpoint. I'd still be able to work some angle in this shit. But it's, you know, it's exciting, man.  [00:37:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's an exciting time, man. What has the response been like from the hip-hop community? [00:37:50] Hannibal Buress: It's been dope, man. Went on Sway In The Morning, did my written freestyle. I bothered Questlove when The Roots were performing at Pitchfork. They let me rock up there. So I got to rap with Black Thought, you know. It's been good, man. The Sway, the Sway interview helped, you know, I got a bunch of friends that I've worked with that I send stuff to sometimes. So the people that really know me, like know me know me, know that I've been working on things for a while and been building. So they've been super supportive and especially the ones that know what the grind has been and know how I've been working. So it is been dope, man. I'm just, I'm excited to just keep pushing, putting together shows and it's a fun time with just lots of possibilities and shit.  [00:38:40] Dan Runcie: Exciting time, man. Exciting stuff. So before we close things out, what should the audience stay in tune for? What does the next year look like for Eshu Tune and what should they keep locked in for? [00:38:52] Hannibal Buress: The plan is to drop the full album on my 40th birthday, February 4th, '23. So I got a couple of songs done for it, going to start the sessions for it next month in November and December, hopefully, shoot videos, December. January, drop a single on New Year's Eve. And then 40th birthday album, I don't know what the title is going to be yet. 40-year-old freshman, 4 HB, 4 Eshu, 40, 244. I don't know, something like that, but I feel like 40th birthday is a good, drop date. Yeah, so that's the plan. And so I'll use the time leading up, you know, to start purging old stuff, you know what I mean? Use that to kind of, you know, drop loosies and different things and even drop some of the older comedy stuff I got, I've been hoarding. And so I want to also, in addition to having the Mondays residency, use the Mondays as a drop date, you know, for new content, old content to start just really, really getting stuff out and start just to free my brain up, 'cause there's a lot of, even though I'm making stuff and dropping stuff, there's a lot of other stuff that I think needs to just be let go, let the birds fly and then it'll help the creativity more. [00:40:12] Dan Runcie: I hear that. In terms of other stuff too. I think I remember seeing you, you had a song called Numbers. Is that a kid song? Is that one of those things you're going to be putting out there?  [00:40:21] Hannibal Buress: I don't know if I'm going to lean too heavily into the kid songs yet, or maybe under an alias. I might start dropping, but yeah. I've been seeing some of, who's it, Gracie's?  [00:40:29] Dan Runcie: Gracie's Corner?  [00:40:30] Hannibal Buress: Gracie's Corner and then another one where they got the trap kind of kid stuff. Maybe Numbers was fun to do. I did that, yeah. Shout out to Shaliek on the beat for Numbers. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. One robot, two robots. The robots is an ongoing theme in my music also.  [00:40:51] Dan Runcie: Hey, man, we're excited for all of it, man.  [00:40:53] Hannibal Buress: Yeah.  [00:40:54] Dan Runcie: Tons of respect for you, man.  [00:40:55] Hannibal Buress: Hey, thank you, man. Thanks and good talking with you, Dan, for sure.  [00:40:57] Dan Runcie: Always been.  [00:40:58] Hannibal Buress: Yep. [00:41:00] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 29 Sep 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Inside Hannibal Buress’ Pivot From Comedy To Rap full Dan Runcie Hannibal Buress has carved a name for himself in comedy over the past two decades. But now he’s foregoing that part of his career for a fresh identity — Eshu Tune, his rap alter-ego. The name pays homage to a “trickster god” in Nigerian mythology. A rap career has been in the back of Hannibal’s mind but the career pivot wasn’t seriously put into motion until 2020. Earlier that year, he put out a comedy special, “Miami Nights.” While promoting it at home during lockdowns, Hannibal felt a spark missing. That, plus the added alone time from not performing at comedy clubs, finally pushed Hannibal into the studio.  Since then, Hannibal has largely dedicated himself to rap and rap only. His eight-track, self-titled EP dropped earlier this year. Live rap show performances followed that. An agency deal was inked with UTA this summer. And soon, Hannibal will hit the studio to prepare for his debut album, which he plans to drop on his 40th birthday next April. Hannibal took me through his comedy-to-rap journey over the past two years on the show. Here’s what we covered in our interview: [2:54] Introducing Eshu Tune the rapper [4:17] What led Hannibal to the career pivot [6:53] Goals of debut EP  [10:11] Benefits of being independent artist [14:34] Following Too $hort at a Bay Area show [19:52] Getting a performing residency in LA [21:29] Challenging himself with music [26:52] Difference between Hannibal’s comedy and rap fanbase [29:08] Will Hannibal still do comedy? [31:36] Has the changing climate of comedy impacted Hannibal? [34:01] Previous comedians that went into music [37:50] Response from rap community to Hannibal’s career pivot [38:52] Eshu Tune’s next album drop Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Hannibal Buress, @hannibalburess     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Hannibal Buress: I got some stuff, I got 'em locked and loaded, just, you know, got to go get 'em out. That's one thing too, is since I am independent, I don't feel, I just kind of do it when it feels right, when it genuinely feels right to do. It's no pressure. It's just like, okay, do I truly want to do this? Ain't no exec, hey, you got to do, there's nobody doing that, so I have to make that decision, which is a gift. I wouldn't say it's a curse, but it forces that accountability. [00:00:35] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Hannibal Buress. You likely know his name from his comedy and his acting, but this episode is all about his music. Hannibal Buress has released an eight-track EP under the name Eshu Tune, and that is his artist that is creating hip-hop music. And we talked all about why he chose to start this new chapter in his career, why music was important to him, and how he sees things moving forward. Hannibal had had a career of dabbling in music every now and then. He actually had beaten Open Mike Eagle in a rap battle a couple of years back. And it's something that he had tapped into, but it really wasn't until the pandemic, and a lot of us had the time to really think and tap into what was most important to us. And he was able to take this on not only as a new challenge for his career, but as a new opportunity to do something that he always wanted to do, but knowing that he could both continue to leverage the platform that he has as a comedian and as an actor, both from a financial perspective, but also from an exposure perspective. We also talked about his upcoming residency, how he's been positioning himself to get booked on shows and other things, and how important this is for him right now. So it was great to tap in. This was also the first episode recorded in Trapital's new home. I have a new office and studio here, and it's been great to get everything set up, and it's been great to record these in person, too, because, listen, it's great to do things remotely. A lot of them have been that way, but it's just a different chemistry that you get when you can do them in person. So it was great that Hannibal and I could connect while he was in town. Here's our conversation. Hope you enjoy it. All right. Today we got the one and only Hannibal Buress. [00:02:41] Hannibal Buress: What's up, man?  [00:02:41] Dan Runcie: Mr. Eshu Tune now, though.  [00:02:43] Hannibal Buress: Eshu Tune, yeah, yeah.  [00:02:44] Dan Runcie: Last we talked, it was all about comedy. We're getting ready for a special that you had Miami Nights, but now we're about to talk about your music career, man.  [00:02:52] Hannibal Buress: Yeah, for sure, man.  [00:02:53] Dan Runcie: So who is Eshu Tune?  [00:02:54] Hannibal Buress: Eshu Tune is my musical alter ego. Eshu is from Yoruban mythology, Nigerian mythology, the trickster God. I was looking for a stage name there, so I just looked up African mythology and I just connected with that description. It kind of felt like me and some of the things I've done and, yeah, it just felt right. It really was a big help to kind of separate the worlds a little bit just 'cause now I look at, you know, Eshu as, okay, we can build them together 'cause now, I can if I want to do a little bit of comedy on this shows, it's like, Hey, yeah, they'll both be there. [00:03:34] Dan Runcie: Right, right, right.  [00:03:35] Hannibal Buress: I changed shirts. You know, I can think of you like, you know, Hannibal's t-shirts. Eshu's in a red shirt or something, you know? So it's been fun. And so I'm excited for the growth, and performing has been really exciting, and a lot of dope stuff coming up. [00:03:53] Dan Runcie: So talk to me through the journey a bit because I know this is something that you spent a lot of time on in the pandemic. And last time we talked about it, you were getting ready to release Miami Nights, and this was around the same time that you had started working on music. So what was your mindset at that time? You got this big comedy special coming out, but you also are thinking about this new career opportunity. [00:04:17] Hannibal Buress: My mindset? 2020, putting out the special during that time was hella weird just because it wasn't the usual motions and movements that you have with putting out a special, doing events, doing press in person. You know, I did The Daily Show, but it was on Skype. And it just felt weird doing television from my place 'cause you still get wired kind of, but then you're just wired at the crib. It's like, man, oh, I'm not getting in the car to go somewhere else, you just there like, oh. [00:04:54] Dan Runcie: Right, right.  [00:04:55] Hannibal Buress: I remember doing, I did First Take with Stephen A. Smith. Something for Last Dance, just talking about Last Dance. And I remember just, I kept messing with them changing jackets.  [00:05:08] Dan Runcie: Oh, I remember that. [00:05:13] Hannibal Buress: Molly was giving me sass. Oh, thanks for being so professional. I'm trying to, like, you want me to make a great statement about Last Dance? Look, oh, yeah, Last Dance. What's up with that? I'm trying to have some fun, make some real memories here. Nobody will care about my take on...  [00:05:30] Dan Runcie: It's a documentary, right? It's not like it's an event that happened last night.  [00:05:35] Hannibal Buress: Yeah. If I make a great point about the '96 Bulls, '98 Bulls in 10 years, but people don't care if I'm was chaotic as hell. I need to put that clip back up actually. That was really fun. I was sweating and shit. Yeah, it was a good time. But, yeah, putting out the special then, it was weird, man. And I wanted the music, I started really diving in in November of '20 when I was out in Hawaii. I kind of, it was nice to be able to lock in, focus. I've always wanted to do it and would finally find the time. And the time was always there, honestly, but I wasn't as good as maneuvering time as I am now. 'Cause looking back, I could have been on the road after gigs, instead of going to the club, could have been booking studio time, that type of thing, or, you know, I'm glad it happened when it happened.  [00:06:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. I think, too, I've looked a lot about how you chose to roll this out, right? It's not like you just did one single, let me drop in and see what happens. You had an eight-track LP, oh, EP that you put out specifically for it. What was your goal in terms of the release? Was there a certain response that you wanted to have or a certain emphasis you wanted to have with how you chose to put it out as an EP? [00:06:53] Hannibal Buress: Yeah. And initially, I was going to do singles, the single strategy, but then I had a bunch of songs and I said, let me just get these out and see how I want to do it. Like, if I want to do videos for stuff, which I am still going to do the visuals on things and get 'em out. But it was just after a while. It was just, let me just do it. And I didn't follow the proper practices of, you know, get it to the DSPs with this much time, to the best time, like, all the stuff that I know you're supposed to do to give your release the best chance. But I just feel like it'll get its due when it's due, you know what I mean, whether it is when I put out videos later this month or next month or down the line. It's my first project. So whether it's crazy now or crazy in five years, it's always my first project. So it'll be there and it just felt good to get it out and have it out ' cause then the music got better afterwards, the stuff I started recording. And I still like the song, like 1-3 Pocket. I like 1-3 Pocket. And that was 1-3 Pocket, that's the motherfucker hit. Like when we made it, yeah, this bowling song's going to go crazy. Hell yeah, we made a bowling banger, but now I got other songs. I'm like, okay, I was wrong. Well, maybe I wasn't wrong, but it's just, the music is getting better. And so it's nice to feel that and feel that improvement and the progression. And so that'll keep on happening indefinitely. You know, if you keep on working on it, keep on releasing, keep performing, it's going to get better. So it's nice to have that feeling and, and hear that in the music and like even hearing how the music sounds. If I record the day after a show, that music sounds good 'cause you can kind of hear the clarity, you know, you already got the energy. So it's been exciting, man. [00:08:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I get the feeling that 1-3 Pocket was a song you thought was going to be the one and that's a one, but I feel like Veneers is the one that I feel is your anthem.  [00:08:57] Hannibal Buress: Veneers worked before I even put it out, and I performed it 'cause the hook is slower and the beat is chill. It feels, yeah, Veneers is the one I think people like more than the song that has really inside bowling terminology in it. Surprise the song about teeth is more accessible than the song about the bowling pins. Like, even people that love bowling have said to me, what is the 1-3 Pocket?  [00:09:33] Dan Runcie: 'Cause some people would think you're talking about like billiards or like, you know, like shooting pool or something like that. [00:09:37] Hannibal Buress: Nah, it's just a, yeah, it's the headpin and the pin to the right. I got to put out a video for 1-3 Pocket. I got the lyric video out. I got to get the official video out, a couple of them. I might, you know, we'll see if I get on stubborn mode and start putting out three, four videos for a song. That's when I really, I'll start really lighting up, just going crazy with the visuals. Yeah. I was waiting to see the music videos. I'm glad you mentioned that you got the lyric video up.  [00:10:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And of course, you know, like that's a great way to get the views and engagement up, but yeah, seeing the Eshu Tune visual character, I feel like that is, you know, the next piece of this. [00:10:11] Hannibal Buress: Yeah, I've been holding off a bit on the music videos 'cause I know when I got to know, when I do officials, that's when things are really shifting in a way. And so I don't want to rush it, but, you know, they come in over the next month or so, is when the visuals start. I got some recorded already. I got some for Back In The City. I recorded in Thailand actually. When I was in Thailand and I looked on Eventbrite and it was a restaurant packaging conference at the convention center. I was like, let's just go here. And I went and it was all this interesting, just different machinery and robotics. Me and my lady just walked through, something just to, you know, just a different environment. I said, man, well, I'm over here. What else am I going to do in Thailand and it's a convention? I have to shoot a music video. So I came back two days later, shot the video there. And so I got that. We got one for Closed Mouths. We got a Pocket video, got a version of the Veneers video, but I want to do a story version. So, yeah, I got some stuff, I got 'em locked and loaded, just, you know, got to go get 'em out. That's one thing too, is since I am independent, I don't feel, I just kind of do it when it feels right, when it genuinely feels right to do. It's no pressure. It's just like, okay, do I truly want to do this? Ain't no exec, hey, you got to do, there's nobody doing that, so I have to make that decision, which is a gift. I wouldn't say it's a curse, but it forces that accountability. [00:11:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah, with that, too, I feel like, with you, you're an independent artist who also has the luxury of this platform of your comedy that has given you not just the resources, but the platform to be able to get booked on shows or to be able to get at festivals or other things like that. How do you look overall in terms of how you view your career as an independent artist and wanting to see that through? Do you see a major label in the future? Do you see building what you have clearly with the resources that you have from your comedy and acting to be able to push off for that?  [00:12:19] Hannibal Buress: I think the major label thing isn't something I'm chasing. I would hear them out, you know what I mean? I would take a meeting or a call just to hear the right pitch and see. But before I even would do that, I would have to give myself at least a year or so of operating full speed.  [00:12:42] Dan Runcie: Right. [00:12:42] Hannibal Buress: 'Cause now I'm in the coast, I'm doing a good amount of shows and having fun, done a couple of festivals this year with, you know, no visuals out. So I would have to give myself all of 23 of like going, you know, with a full staff, you know what I mean? My whole infrastructure, putting out everything, like really, really going crazy merch, all the whole thing, and then see how I like that. And then see what we could do from there. But for now I kind of got an idea of how I want to do it. And a lot of the things that a label can provide, I've been to some of these spots before while I promoting standup or touring or different things, I've been around. I'm sure there's other things or different cracks and crevices they can operate in, but there's a lot of things that, you know, I'm able to pull off 'cause I'm independent, but it's not a true, like in the same kind of thing. 'cause I've got the visibility. So it's a good help. The music still has to be good, too, and I'm cognizant of that, where I want to be, you know, I don't want to just be in the spots to be in them.  [00:13:52] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:13:52] Hannibal Buress: I want to be in the spots and really doing my thing and having a dope show and, you know, justifying the spot. [00:13:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah.  [00:14:00] Hannibal Buress: Yeah.  [00:14:00] Dan Runcie: Because I think the thing that works out for you with it well is so many folks signed with the record label because they want to be able to get the distribution that can at least get them some global recognition in reach. But then that also gives them to being able to do shows, right? And you are able to get a lot of these shows on your own, just given the connections and the influence that you have. What has that process been like specifically with you getting out? 'Cause I know that you were up in San Francisco a couple of months ago. You did, you know, we had the 420 thing up here. What has that process been?  [00:14:34] Hannibal Buress: That's through friends, you know, old friends that I've worked with before or talk with and people that, yeah, my homie Normani helped put that together, the 420. So it's just people that believe in what I'm doing, that I have a history with, that, you know, see some opportunities. So Too $hort went on, I forget who the DJ from the Bay was, but Too $hort went on and I was like, oh man, I'm going on after Too $hort in the Bay? With friends?  [00:15:07] Dan Runcie: Blow the whistle finishes and now...  [00:15:10] Hannibal Buress: It was crazy and I got brand new music. Brand new. That was two days after the project dropped. But it was a fun time. I enjoy it so much, man. Even that show didn't go how I thought it was going to go, but it still was fun, you know?  [00:15:34] Dan Runcie: Wait, how did you think that show was going to go? [00:15:36] Hannibal Buress: How did I think it was? I thought it was going to, in my mind, and it's the blessing of being mostly optimistic on the performance side might just drop the project, it's circulated, two days after, it's the Bay. I'm going to hit the stage going Veneers. Yeah, get out there, and then, you know, they didn't, they was listening, but it just wasn't, you know, it's just new rap sometimes it's tough. And so also then I still, my music performance chops are a bit more developed now, too. It's been some time, so I'm better at engaging the crowd, even if they don't know the music 'cause I think, at first, bringing a lot of standup energy into it, meaning, you know, you get the, Hey, yeah, say, yeah, but, you know, you got to, and so getting used to just monologue and even just the body language, too, microphone holding, body language, like, you know, that whole thing. Still a bit rusty now. And there's a lot of room to grow. I like coming back to spots, too, after you did, so it will be some folks, they had a good time there, too. It was dope. Had another show that night too. I did LA later that night with the full band. So it was just a dope experience to have two shows in the Bay, LA, same night, 420. I'll never forget that at all.  [00:17:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's an interesting crowd too, because their crowd is high as hell, and it is a midweek thing, too. So it's not the same way of, let's say a music festival where it's like, oh, three o'clock at the East stage, Eshu Tune is going to be there, right, so that's definitely a little bit of a different vibe than I feel like what that event is.  [00:17:21] Hannibal Buress: Yeah, it was. But the one good thing, another good thing about is that I rehearsed right before. Like I landed, went to a rehearsal space, and then I ran through it. So when I got on stage, I felt good 'cause I was freshly rehearsed. So even though I wasn't rocking out, I kind of was in the zone, in a good space. But when I had a show in Philly for Adult Swim Fest, that one we were tapped in, had the band. I love having the band up there just because I feel like, you know, when you got the band, that's just a lot of energy on stage and you got to, I feel like, giving them a reason to be like, okay, why are we playing for this motherfucker? So then you got to bring the energy up even more to justify the band, you know, so that's always fun. [00:18:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So how often are you doing shows right now?  [00:18:15] Hannibal Buress: My last show was I popped out at this open mic in LA a couple of days ago, then before that was, what?  [00:18:24] Dan Runcie: An open mic for music, to clarify. [00:18:26] Hannibal Buress: Open mic for music. Yeah, open mic for music, did a few songs. And doing Wild 'N Out next week in Atlanta and probably do a popup or something in Atlanta, maybe. And then I'm starting up a residency in LA, six weeks at Grand Star Jazz Bar. That's going to start on September 26th, every Monday until October 31st 'cause I wanted to get that structure in. And then, you know, I used to host at Knitting Factory in Brooklyn and that kind of, like, having that consistency of doing a regular spot. I hadn't done that in a minute. And so when I did the last show at Knitting Factory, that location closed down, I did and so it reminded me of that energy and just of that, you know, having that regular spot where people know they can see me 'cause you can't always link up with friends or grab lunch and all of that. So you can kinda have the residency, people know where to find you. So I want to do that. I'm excited about doing that 'cause I think that'll help the writing 'cause it'll be like, okay, I got this show. I definitely have this show on Monday. Maybe I'll try this new song there. And then the rest of the week can kind of flow off of that. So I'm super excited about these six shows. I put 'em all on sale at once and it's nice to see they're flowing, you know? And so it is going to be, it's going to be a good time and then we'll see how we want to operate from there. But definitely doing those six in a row, man.  [00:19:47] Dan Runcie: What was it like to get that process going for the residency specifically? [00:19:52] Hannibal Buress: It was, you know, I went to the spot at Grand Star. I saw something there I've been there twice. It is really close to my spot. And then I just reached out to the owner online, walked over there, talked to him, told him what I was trying to do, told him I wanted Mondays. He was like, all right, you take the door, I'll take the bar. I ain't dealing with your ticketing, like this it. And then I was like, all right, let's get it. It was pretty straightforward and simple, you know. ' Cause I realized I wasn't, something about LA, it was making me stagnant on a live performance side and I was doing more gigs out of town. And I've done some stuff, but I wasn't really consistent locally. And so I just realized I had to create that. I couldn't be, you know, annoyed with the nightlife or performing if I wasn't really trying to do something about it.  [00:20:45] Dan Runcie: Right, right.  [00:20:46] Hannibal Buress: When I have that ability, it's not that tough to like, Hey, this is the place I do a show, you know? So I'm really hyped 'cause they'll be, you know, have a comedian or two and two or three music acts and get the book stuff that I'm a fan of and tape 'em. And the excitement of doing a show, like putting on a regular show after doing it for a while and doing it now with knowledge and knowing how to build the vibe and promote and all those things. It's going to be a blast.  [00:21:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah. With that type of show specifically, you are also staying in the same spot. And I know that probably helps from a lifestyle perspective too. You have a young daughter, you know, you're not trying to, you know, be on the road, maybe, to the same extent. [00:21:29] Hannibal Buress: Yeah, just the consistency of this is what, you know, for everybody, for the team, for the camera people, by the third show's, like, okay, this is my spots right here. Everybody being, you know, the timing of it, and it's just, I got to create that consistency for myself and that external pressure to do 'cause they're not all like everything else. 'Cause then once like, okay, Monday, this is what Mondays are no matter what. So then it's like, okay, well, it's Tuesday now since we only got six others. So like, okay, one of those has to be a studio day or this type of day or that. Or, you know, it forces the structure for the rest of it. So it's something I haven't had in a while like that consistency. So, you know, when I did have it in New York, it kind of led to the most productive times in my career and, yeah, the most profitable.  [00:22:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, I feel like I'm seeing, hearing more artists talk about that, especially, we're seeing what's happening in Vegas. So many more artists, especially while they're still in their prime, taking the residencies there, too. And you're starting to see them more in different cities. And I like how you did where you're like, yeah, you essentially created your own opportunity where you're at. So and I feel like we're going to start to see more of that as I'm just seeing trends of how artists are thinking about doing things and where it makes sense to monetize in and where it doesn't. [00:22:50] Hannibal Buress: Yeah. Just, you know, it's like, Hey, I booked myself for six, you know, I'm here. But even, you know, with that, it's a bunch of different things. And look, you could change up the core each week, you know what I mean? Change up the merch or change up the drinks or change, you know, all these different elements to keep it fresh since you learn in the space and learning the crowd. And you get to know the fans 'cause I'm sure, you know, folks go return, you know? So and having that data, too, of seeing that, you know, yeah, who you see exactly who I'm seeing, who’s buying the tickets and blah, blah, blah, and so can reach out direct. Thank you for your time, who are you listening to, you know? now it's like a kind of, It's going to be a new phase, man. And that's one thing, too, with the music is that younger hunger, 'cause it's a newer thing. It still has that feeling of I don't know what's going to happen. Right. You know, I could try to make things or put things, but the other parts of it, when you do that, make other things happen when you just, you know, action cause reaction. Even going to that open mic that I did the other night and ask this other person, Hey, come to this show, you know, shows beget shows. And so it's nice to have that momentum and that feel because the comedy side, I don't want to say it's predictable, but the goals kind of are, you could change up your special and, and different things, but the goals like, oh, blah, blah, blah, special, blah, blah, blah, move and you do this, too, but it feels super blank canvas a little bit. [00:24:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I get the impression from you that there's part of that that is enjoyable. It's that challenge. It's like what keeps it fresh in a way, because, at least for comedy, you mentioned the predictability of it. Like, you knew what would work, you're getting the calls. Like, you know, you're still getting them up to this point. So this is an opportunity to be like, no, this is something I've always wanted to do. Let me tap in here and explore the unknown because, at least from the comedy side, even though that could be unknown to someone else, but you've been in this for decades now, you know?  [00:24:50] Hannibal Buress: Yeah. At the open mic, it was a bunch of other artists, that was having the same conversations. Like, I didn't know you rapped, I didn't know you rapped, I didn't know you rapped. Like, yeah, I guess that's why I'm here. So now you know I rapped. And so to have, you know, it's still building that, you know, through word of mouth, through performing and, you know, a solid amount of time, but it's happening piece by piece where I'm, you know, seeing folks in public. Oh, I see you doing the music, yeah, keep doing, you know. Yeah, it feels good, man. It feels exciting. And it is just going to get better and keep learning and, you know, I got my drum set, you know, practice more, got keys, got to, you know, I want to in five years be full on musician be able to move around the whole kit, the whole, you know, all the instruments and, and really do a show show, you know? [00:25:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah. By show show. What do you mean?  [00:25:47] Hannibal Buress: Like, being able to, you know, like even have a band, like this one, I'm on keys, for this one... [00:25:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah, yeah.  [00:25:52] Hannibal Buress: But not fucking around on keys. Like, actually killing that shit. This one I'm hopping on the kit and like, not bullshit. I don't want to, you know, half-ass it like, oh yeah, he's up there. He's having fun. Then get the picture. No, I wanted to, you know, actually, be technically proficient at it. And I'm willing to work to get to that spot too. You know, but you got to lock in for that. So that's the real, real goal is to be able to even, in seven years, pop in on somebody's set only for drums and, like, nail it, you know what I mean? Like, okay, like he playing on somebody else's music, you know, and it like, yeah, that's the goal. Even if I'm 47, 50 when I'm able to do it, that's what I want to do.  [00:26:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I feel like with you, too, you talked a little bit about the fan base piece of it, and you be able to see who's coming to the shows and seeing who the fans are. Do you feel like the fan base is slightly different in any way from your comedy fan base?  [00:26:52] Hannibal Buress: It will be. It will be. Right now, there's a lot of overlap 'cause people that might be thinking, they're getting the comedy show and show up for the music and then they like, oh, okay, that was better than that. I didn't know that was happening. But there'll be some folks that weren't into my comedy at all that was like, okay, I like this I'm seeing some folks, I did Sway In The Morning, the freestyle, some people are like, I like this better than his comedy. And now I'm thinking me too. I do too, yeah. And then there'll be people that never knew I did comedy once, then when the music is discovered, if they find it through the algorithm or something, they'll be some folks like, what? This guy got four comedy specials, you know, especially when things start tapping on an international scale. If When I started touring in Asia, going over, you know, folks that they just find the music through the promoter or whoever, and then they like, what? You do music? So I'm excited for that part of it too, man. It's nice to, you know, and then I might rerelease Miami Nights, but just put music videos in between that shit. [00:28:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah.  [00:28:05] Hannibal Buress: Like, oh, y'all want Miami Nights? Well, here. And it’ll be like, and so, and then I said 2Chainz and like Veneers, Veeners, 1-3 Pocket, you know. There's a lot of moves to, you know, that just because I have that this older stuff and this older material to be able to maneuver and, you know, run ads against and all these different things, man. So it's just a lot of possibilities and ideas. It is fun, it's a fun time. Every day, I'm lit up, like excited, just because, you know, there's so much to do and so many different ideas. I'm and so it's just, I'm fully locked in, yeah.  [00:28:45] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Where do you feel like your comedy itself fits within your career? 'Cause I know I've listened to past interviews you've done and you've said that, nope, I'm locked in on music right now. But I also know that you had said in other interviews that okay, maybe in three years, if I do another comedy special or make it all even stronger. So where does your comedy fit in for you right now?  [00:29:08] Hannibal Buress: I could still do it. Because I did it last night at this private gig. And I did it when we did the last night at Knitting Factory, I planned on doing 10 minutes and I ended up going on a couple of tangents, did it in 20, 30. That was partially 'cause of the history of the room and that energy there and that's where I built that soul. And I still can write, you know, I do banter in between. I just don't think I foresee just me kind of grinding out in the clubs or, you know, trying to do for weekends for a while, unless it's just purely to pay for some last-minute music expense. It would be just purely that, if I'm at an improv or doing it if I'm billed as a standup publicly, that's where it's at right now. Even I did for the gig last night, I brought a keys player, Preach Balfour, he plays for my show sometimes, but it was just, I didn't feel like having the emptiness of just pure waiting for laughs. It's not going to be with a keys players the whole time and I'm telling these stories, these jokes, but it's not going to be dead in the room just because. It's like, I'm not giving y'all that as an audience. I'm not giving you the ability to have this shit be silent at the very least after I say something, it's going to be beautiful keys planted as motherfucker. So it's just that exercise of just the grind of what it takes to stay sharp as a standup, I don't feel like doing that anymore. I just find the music to be more enjoyable. And just, it has more, yeah, you just can go into a different direction, like everything don't have to be funny or everything don't have to be one level, you know what I mean? And so maybe down the line now, another one or, but as far as like working, working, I don't see it happening, yeah.  [00:31:15] Dan Runcie: Has any of the reaction to how comedians have either been perceived or how they're being called upon to respond to particular things, especially in the past few years with how things happening on Twitter, has any of that impacted how you feel are your relationship to comedy or making it at all? [00:31:36] Hannibal Buress: No, man. 'cause you just have to, you don't have to do anything out here unless you're on a show where you do that and you're contractually obligated. But even that is still a choice, you know what I'm saying? Everything is a choice. We could live in the woods, man, with no electricity if we choose to. We choose to be out here and perform, play video games, move about, you know, born into this, but you don't have to do none of the shit, all of it, all of it's made up.  [00:32:11] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:32:12] Hannibal Buress: Yeah.  [00:32:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because I feel like as you mentioned, yeah, a lot of it being made up probably makes people almost forget that they do have a choice in a lot of this because I feel like what I've seen or what I've heard from other comics sometimes is that just because of how things are with the climate or how people feel like they need to respond to particular things that there are comics that feel different, especially how things have happened, post-pandemic. But I feel like your mentality is a bit more like, Hey, we really don't have to like, just like whether it's people being canceled or people having backlash for things they say like, comics don't need to fit into fall into that. [00:32:51] Hannibal Buress: You can just do what you want, you know? And that's one thing. And it's not to judge or say, oh, it's wrong. I see why people would feel pressure. And I get that, too, but it's, after a while you just really like, oh, it's now that I know exactly what I enjoy, and I know the spots where I am truly having fun and losing track of time and enjoying life. And so I just try to spend as much time in those spots and spaces as I can and leave the other shit alone. It takes practice. It's a great theory. It ain't fully perfect, but it's a solid system for me.  [00:33:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, yeah. Has there been a bit of a connection to other comedians that have went into music? Thinking about something like a Jamie Foxx or someone like that, that, you know, someone else like yourself, multi-talented and has, you know, had success in both areas. Is there kind of like a, okay, you know, you see that others have done this, or do you really feel like, no, this is even more unique thing?  [00:34:01] Hannibal Buress: I respect, definitely respect what they've done. The timing is different for how I'm doing it. So that's why it's kind of, it's tough to compare a little bit the approach because it is been a minute. But it makes it interesting for me just from having stuff to talk about, too, for doing it so long 'cause sometimes I'm like, maybe I should have started when I was 23, but I think it happened when it was supposed to happen, and it happened when I was ready for it to really happen. But yeah, I watched, you know, like Jamie is amazing, you know? What Gambino's done, it's really dope. I saw Lil Duval write his Living My Best Life, was popping. I saw him.  [00:34:42] Dan Runcie: That was a good song.  [00:34:43] Hannibal Buress: He did good with that one. He was at the Stress Factory in Jersey as the song was peaking, and he was definitely too big for that room, but it made the energy... [00:34:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah. [00:34:55] Hannibal Buress: He was, like, crazy. He hit the stage to it. Like it was dope to see, man, like I was genuinely excited, and you could feel that he was hyped about it too, man. So it is dope to see when people just go for it in that way, and then we just making this shit, you can really do anything. I have to remind myself of that, too. Just really do anything, man. Just, you know, just go for this shit. I got this song, No Whip. It is a freestyle. It's a 7-minute freestyle about how I was living in Hawaii last year. I bought a car there,, and then I took a trip and then we ended up moving, but I didn't go back to like send the car and I've been planning to, but it's just kind of one of them things where I just, out of sight out of mind. And it ain't really, you know, causing a strain on my life, right? But it is, it's kind of, I bought this whip left in Hawaii, blah blah. And it's like, it's a loose freestyle. And I'm like, you know what, man, I'm going to shoot this part here, part in Hawaii, and just keep it at seven minutes 'cause you can just do that. The instinct is like, oh no, maybe I need to, I'm being repetitive, so maybe I should cut. I'm like, no, shoot that shit rough. Like, make it look as dope as possible. Like, shoot it rough freestyle dope and have fun and then just let it fly and just don't put the constraints on yourself unnecessarily. It's easy to try to overedit sometimes or get it. And so it's just, getting better at trusting myself, which was the initial hurdle It was just, okay, let me do this. There was nobody like, you can't make music, man. What are you, like? It was kind of me battling initially. And then once I dropped it and then, you know, now, okay. And then just rewiring my brain to, okay, I am doing this and keep doing it. It's like, okay, well, we are doing this for real, you know, no matter, no matter what. That's why I find it, like, absurd when people reach out and like, stop. That's weird. Like, you realize I'm a very, I'm a very stubborn person. Like, I'm not doing it to show you up. Like, this is like, I'm already way more locked in than you could ever imagine. So, you know, why you would ever tell me to stop. It's weird. But then I know that that person's not locked in on whatever they want to do if the time to tell me to stop. Yeah, but it's that I don't even get mad is just more like what, what? That's a weird thing to like, why stop? You realize even if my music was completely trash, I would still be able to figure it out from a marketer standpoint. I'd still be able to work some angle in this shit. But it's, you know, it's exciting, man.  [00:37:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's an exciting time, man. What has the response been like from the hip-hop community? [00:37:50] Hannibal Buress: It's been dope, man. Went on Sway In The Morning, did my written freestyle. I bothered Questlove when The Roots were performing at Pitchfork. They let me rock up there. So I got to rap with Black Thought, you know. It's been good, man. The Sway, the Sway interview helped, you know, I got a bunch of friends that I've worked with that I send stuff to sometimes. So the people that really know me, like know me know me, know that I've been working on things for a while and been building. So they've been super supportive and especially the ones that know what the grind has been and know how I've been working. So it is been dope, man. I'm just, I'm excited to just keep pushing, putting together shows and it's a fun time with just lots of possibilities and shit.  [00:38:40] Dan Runcie: Exciting time, man. Exciting stuff. So before we close things out, what should the audience stay in tune for? What does the next year look like for Eshu Tune and what should they keep locked in for? [00:38:52] Hannibal Buress: The plan is to drop the full album on my 40th birthday, February 4th, '23. So I got a couple of songs done for it, going to start the sessions for it next month in November and December, hopefully, shoot videos, December. January, drop a single on New Year's Eve. And then 40th birthday album, I don't know what the title is going to be yet. 40-year-old freshman, 4 HB, 4 Eshu, 40, 244. I don't know, something like that, but I feel like 40th birthday is a good, drop date. Yeah, so that's the plan. And so I'll use the time leading up, you know, to start purging old stuff, you know what I mean? Use that to kind of, you know, drop loosies and different things and even drop some of the older comedy stuff I got, I've been hoarding. And so I want to also, in addition to having the Mondays residency, use the Mondays as a drop date, you know, for new content, old content to start just really, really getting stuff out and start just to free my brain up, 'cause there's a lot of, even though I'm making stuff and dropping stuff, there's a lot of other stuff that I think needs to just be let go, let the birds fly and then it'll help the creativity more. [00:40:12] Dan Runcie: I hear that. In terms of other stuff too. I think I remember seeing you, you had a song called Numbers. Is that a kid song? Is that one of those things you're going to be putting out there?  [00:40:21] Hannibal Buress: I don't know if I'm going to lean too heavily into the kid songs yet, or maybe under an alias. I might start dropping, but yeah. I've been seeing some of, who's it, Gracie's?  [00:40:29] Dan Runcie: Gracie's Corner?  [00:40:30] Hannibal Buress: Gracie's Corner and then another one where they got the trap kind of kid stuff. Maybe Numbers was fun to do. I did that, yeah. Shout out to Shaliek on the beat for Numbers. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. One robot, two robots. The robots is an ongoing theme in my music also.  [00:40:51] Dan Runcie: Hey, man, we're excited for all of it, man.  [00:40:53] Hannibal Buress: Yeah.  [00:40:54] Dan Runcie: Tons of respect for you, man.  [00:40:55] Hannibal Buress: Hey, thank you, man. Thanks and good talking with you, Dan, for sure.  [00:40:57] Dan Runcie: Always been.  [00:40:58] Hannibal Buress: Yep. [00:41:00] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Hannibal Buress has carved a name for himself in comedy over the past two decades. But now he’s foregoing that part of his career for a fresh identity — Eshu Tune, his rap alter-ego. The name pays homage to a “trickster god” in Nigerian mythology.


A rap career has been in the back of Hannibal’s mind but the career pivot wasn’t seriously put into motion until 2020. Earlier that year, he put out a comedy special, “Miami Nights.” While promoting it at home during lockdowns, Hannibal felt a spark missing. That, plus the added alone time from not performing at comedy clubs, finally pushed Hannibal into the studio. 


Since then, Hannibal has largely dedicated himself to rap and rap only. His eight-track, self-titled EP dropped earlier this year. Live rap show performances followed that. An agency deal was inked with UTA this summer. And soon, Hannibal will hit the studio to prepare for his debut album, which he plans to drop on his 40th birthday next April.


Hannibal took me through his comedy-to-rap journey over the past two years on the show. Here’s what we covered in our interview:


[2:54] Introducing Eshu Tune the rapper

[4:17] What led Hannibal to the career pivot

[6:53] Goals of debut EP 

[10:11] Benefits of being independent artist

[14:34] Following Too $hort at a Bay Area show

[19:52] Getting a performing residency in LA

[21:29] Challenging himself with music

[26:52] Difference between Hannibal’s comedy and rap fanbase

[29:08] Will Hannibal still do comedy?

[31:36] Has the changing climate of comedy impacted Hannibal?

[34:01] Previous comedians that went into music

[37:50] Response from rap community to Hannibal’s career pivot

[38:52] Eshu Tune’s next album drop


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Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Hannibal Buress, @hannibalburess

 

 

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TRANSCRIPTION


[00:00:00] Hannibal Buress: I got some stuff, I got 'em locked and loaded, just, you know, got to go get 'em out. That's one thing too, is since I am independent, I don't feel, I just kind of do it when it feels right, when it genuinely feels right to do. It's no pressure. It's just like, okay, do I truly want to do this? Ain't no exec, hey, you got to do, there's nobody doing that, so I have to make that decision, which is a gift. I wouldn't say it's a curse, but it forces that accountability.

[00:00:35] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 

[00:00:] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Hannibal Buress. You likely know his name from his comedy and his acting, but this episode is all about his music. Hannibal Buress has released an eight-track EP under the name Eshu Tune, and that is his artist that is creating hip-hop music. And we talked all about why he chose to start this new chapter in his career, why music was important to him, and how he sees things moving forward. Hannibal had had a career of dabbling in music every now and then. He actually had beaten Open Mike Eagle in a rap battle a couple of years back. And it's something that he had tapped into, but it really wasn't until the pandemic, and a lot of us had the time to really think and tap into what was most important to us. And he was able to take this on not only as a new challenge for his career, but as a new opportunity to do something that he always wanted to do, but knowing that he could both continue to leverage the platform that he has as a comedian and as an actor, both from a financial perspective, but also from an exposure perspective. We also talked about his upcoming residency, how he's been positioning himself to get booked on shows and other things, and how important this is for him right now. So it was great to tap in. This was also the first episode recorded in Trapital's new home. I have a new office and studio here, and it's been great to get everything set up, and it's been great to record these in person, too, because, listen, it's great to do things remotely. A lot of them have been that way, but it's just a different chemistry that you get when you can do them in person. So it was great that Hannibal and I could connect while he was in town. Here's our conversation. Hope you enjoy it. All right. Today we got the one and only Hannibal Buress.

[00:02:41] Hannibal Buress: What's up, man? 

[00:02:41] Dan Runcie: Mr. Eshu Tune now, though. 

[00:02:43] Hannibal Buress: Eshu Tune, yeah, yeah. 

[00:02:44] Dan Runcie: Last we talked, it was all about comedy. We're getting ready for a special that you had Miami Nights, but now we're about to talk about your music career, man. 

[00:02:52] Hannibal Buress: Yeah, for sure, man. 

[00:02:53] Dan Runcie: So who is Eshu Tune? 

[00:02:54] Hannibal Buress: Eshu Tune is my musical alter ego. Eshu is from Yoruban mythology, Nigerian mythology, the trickster God. I was looking for a stage name there, so I just looked up African mythology and I just connected with that description. It kind of felt like me and some of the things I've done and, yeah, it just felt right. It really was a big help to kind of separate the worlds a little bit just 'cause now I look at, you know, Eshu as, okay, we can build them together 'cause now, I can if I want to do a little bit of comedy on this shows, it's like, Hey, yeah, they'll both be there.

[00:03:34] Dan Runcie: Right, right, right. 

[00:03:35] Hannibal Buress: I changed shirts. You know, I can think of you like, you know, Hannibal's t-shirts. Eshu's in a red shirt or something, you know? So it's been fun. And so I'm excited for the growth, and performing has been really exciting, and a lot of dope stuff coming up.

[00:03:53] Dan Runcie: So talk to me through the journey a bit because I know this is something that you spent a lot of time on in the pandemic. And last time we talked about it, you were getting ready to release Miami Nights, and this was around the same time that you had started working on music. So what was your mindset at that time? You got this big comedy special coming out, but you also are thinking about this new career opportunity.

[00:04:17] Hannibal Buress: My mindset? 2020, putting out the special during that time was hella weird just because it wasn't the usual motions and movements that you have with putting out a special, doing events, doing press in person. You know, I did The Daily Show, but it was on Skype. And it just felt weird doing television from my place 'cause you still get wired kind of, but then you're just wired at the crib. It's like, man, oh, I'm not getting in the car to go somewhere else, you just there like, oh.

[00:04:54] Dan Runcie: Right, right. 

[00:04:55] Hannibal Buress: I remember doing, I did First Take with Stephen A. Smith. Something for Last Dance, just talking about Last Dance. And I remember just, I kept messing with them changing jackets. 

[00:05:08] Dan Runcie: Oh, I remember that.

[00:05:13] Hannibal Buress: Molly was giving me sass. Oh, thanks for being so professional. I'm trying to, like, you want me to make a great statement about Last Dance? Look, oh, yeah, Last Dance. What's up with that? I'm trying to have some fun, make some real memories here. Nobody will care about my take on... 

[00:05:30] Dan Runcie: It's a documentary, right? It's not like it's an event that happened last night. 

[00:05:35] Hannibal Buress: Yeah. If I make a great point about the '96 Bulls, '98 Bulls in 10 years, but people don't care if I'm was chaotic as hell. I need to put that clip back up actually. That was really fun. I was sweating and shit. Yeah, it was a good time. But, yeah, putting out the special then, it was weird, man. And I wanted the music, I started really diving in in November of '20 when I was out in Hawaii. I kind of, it was nice to be able to lock in, focus. I've always wanted to do it and would finally find the time. And the time was always there, honestly, but I wasn't as good as maneuvering time as I am now. 'Cause looking back, I could have been on the road after gigs, instead of going to the club, could have been booking studio time, that type of thing, or, you know, I'm glad it happened when it happened. 

[00:06:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. I think, too, I've looked a lot about how you chose to roll this out, right? It's not like you just did one single, let me drop in and see what happens. You had an eight-track LP, oh, EP that you put out specifically for it. What was your goal in terms of the release? Was there a certain response that you wanted to have or a certain emphasis you wanted to have with how you chose to put it out as an EP?

[00:06:53] Hannibal Buress: Yeah. And initially, I was going to do singles, the single strategy, but then I had a bunch of songs and I said, let me just get these out and see how I want to do it. Like, if I want to do videos for stuff, which I am still going to do the visuals on things and get 'em out. But it was just after a while. It was just, let me just do it. And I didn't follow the proper practices of, you know, get it to the DSPs with this much time, to the best time, like, all the stuff that I know you're supposed to do to give your release the best chance. But I just feel like it'll get its due when it's due, you know what I mean, whether it is when I put out videos later this month or next month or down the line. It's my first project. So whether it's crazy now or crazy in five years, it's always my first project. So it'll be there and it just felt good to get it out and have it out ' cause then the music got better afterwards, the stuff I started recording. And I still like the song, like 1-3 Pocket. I like 1-3 Pocket. And that was 1-3 Pocket, that's the motherfucker hit. Like when we made it, yeah, this bowling song's going to go crazy. Hell yeah, we made a bowling banger, but now I got other songs. I'm like, okay, I was wrong. Well, maybe I wasn't wrong, but it's just, the music is getting better. And so it's nice to feel that and feel that improvement and the progression. And so that'll keep on happening indefinitely. You know, if you keep on working on it, keep on releasing, keep performing, it's going to get better. So it's nice to have that feeling and, and hear that in the music and like even hearing how the music sounds. If I record the day after a show, that music sounds good 'cause you can kind of hear the clarity, you know, you already got the energy. So it's been exciting, man.

[00:08:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I get the feeling that 1-3 Pocket was a song you thought was going to be the one and that's a one, but I feel like Veneers is the one that I feel is your anthem. 

[00:08:57] Hannibal Buress: Veneers worked before I even put it out, and I performed it 'cause the hook is slower and the beat is chill. It feels, yeah, Veneers is the one I think people like more than the song that has really inside bowling terminology in it. Surprise the song about teeth is more accessible than the song about the bowling pins. Like, even people that love bowling have said to me, what is the 1-3 Pocket? 

[00:09:33] Dan Runcie: 'Cause some people would think you're talking about like billiards or like, you know, like shooting pool or something like that.

[00:09:37] Hannibal Buress: Nah, it's just a, yeah, it's the headpin and the pin to the right. I got to put out a video for 1-3 Pocket. I got the lyric video out. I got to get the official video out, a couple of them. I might, you know, we'll see if I get on stubborn mode and start putting out three, four videos for a song. That's when I really, I'll start really lighting up, just going crazy with the visuals. Yeah. I was waiting to see the music videos. I'm glad you mentioned that you got the lyric video up. 

[00:10:02] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And of course, you know, like that's a great way to get the views and engagement up, but yeah, seeing the Eshu Tune visual character, I feel like that is, you know, the next piece of this.

[00:10:11] Hannibal Buress: Yeah, I've been holding off a bit on the music videos 'cause I know when I got to know, when I do officials, that's when things are really shifting in a way. And so I don't want to rush it, but, you know, they come in over the next month or so, is when the visuals start. I got some recorded already. I got some for Back In The City. I recorded in Thailand actually. When I was in Thailand and I looked on Eventbrite and it was a restaurant packaging conference at the convention center. I was like, let's just go here. And I went and it was all this interesting, just different machinery and robotics. Me and my lady just walked through, something just to, you know, just a different environment. I said, man, well, I'm over here. What else am I going to do in Thailand and it's a convention? I have to shoot a music video. So I came back two days later, shot the video there. And so I got that. We got one for Closed Mouths. We got a Pocket video, got a version of the Veneers video, but I want to do a story version. So, yeah, I got some stuff, I got 'em locked and loaded, just, you know, got to go get 'em out. That's one thing too, is since I am independent, I don't feel, I just kind of do it when it feels right, when it genuinely feels right to do. It's no pressure. It's just like, okay, do I truly want to do this? Ain't no exec, hey, you got to do, there's nobody doing that, so I have to make that decision, which is a gift. I wouldn't say it's a curse, but it forces that accountability.

[00:11:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah, with that, too, I feel like, with you, you're an independent artist who also has the luxury of this platform of your comedy that has given you not just the resources, but the platform to be able to get booked on shows or to be able to get at festivals or other things like that. How do you look overall in terms of how you view your career as an independent artist and wanting to see that through? Do you see a major label in the future? Do you see building what you have clearly with the resources that you have from your comedy and acting to be able to push off for that? 

[00:12:19] Hannibal Buress: I think the major label thing isn't something I'm chasing. I would hear them out, you know what I mean? I would take a meeting or a call just to hear the right pitch and see. But before I even would do that, I would have to give myself at least a year or so of operating full speed. 

[00:12:42] Dan Runcie: Right.

[00:12:42] Hannibal Buress: 'Cause now I'm in the coast, I'm doing a good amount of shows and having fun, done a couple of festivals this year with, you know, no visuals out. So I would have to give myself all of 23 of like going, you know, with a full staff, you know what I mean? My whole infrastructure, putting out everything, like really, really going crazy merch, all the whole thing, and then see how I like that. And then see what we could do from there. But for now I kind of got an idea of how I want to do it. And a lot of the things that a label can provide, I've been to some of these spots before while I promoting standup or touring or different things, I've been around. I'm sure there's other things or different cracks and crevices they can operate in, but there's a lot of things that, you know, I'm able to pull off 'cause I'm independent, but it's not a true, like in the same kind of thing. 'cause I've got the visibility. So it's a good help. The music still has to be good, too, and I'm cognizant of that, where I want to be, you know, I don't want to just be in the spots to be in them. 

[00:13:52] Dan Runcie: Right. 

[00:13:52] Hannibal Buress: I want to be in the spots and really doing my thing and having a dope show and, you know, justifying the spot.

[00:13:59] Dan Runcie: Yeah. 

[00:14:00] Hannibal Buress: Yeah. 

[00:14:00] Dan Runcie: Because I think the thing that works out for you with it well is so many folks signed with the record label because they want to be able to get the distribution that can at least get them some global recognition in reach. But then that also gives them to being able to do shows, right? And you are able to get a lot of these shows on your own, just given the connections and the influence that you have. What has that process been like specifically with you getting out? 'Cause I know that you were up in San Francisco a couple of months ago. You did, you know, we had the 420 thing up here. What has that process been? 

[00:14:34] Hannibal Buress: That's through friends, you know, old friends that I've worked with before or talk with and people that, yeah, my homie Normani helped put that together, the 420. So it's just people that believe in what I'm doing, that I have a history with, that, you know, see some opportunities. So Too $hort went on, I forget who the DJ from the Bay was, but Too $hort went on and I was like, oh man, I'm going on after Too $hort in the Bay? With friends? 

[00:15:07] Dan Runcie: Blow the whistle finishes and now... 

[00:15:10] Hannibal Buress: It was crazy and I got brand new music. Brand new. That was two days after the project dropped. But it was a fun time. I enjoy it so much, man. Even that show didn't go how I thought it was going to go, but it still was fun, you know? 

[00:15:34] Dan Runcie: Wait, how did you think that show was going to go?

[00:15:36] Hannibal Buress: How did I think it was? I thought it was going to, in my mind, and it's the blessing of being mostly optimistic on the performance side might just drop the project, it's circulated, two days after, it's the Bay. I'm going to hit the stage going Veneers. Yeah, get out there, and then, you know, they didn't, they was listening, but it just wasn't, you know, it's just new rap sometimes it's tough. And so also then I still, my music performance chops are a bit more developed now, too. It's been some time, so I'm better at engaging the crowd, even if they don't know the music 'cause I think, at first, bringing a lot of standup energy into it, meaning, you know, you get the, Hey, yeah, say, yeah, but, you know, you got to, and so getting used to just monologue and even just the body language, too, microphone holding, body language, like, you know, that whole thing. Still a bit rusty now. And there's a lot of room to grow. I like coming back to spots, too, after you did, so it will be some folks, they had a good time there, too. It was dope. Had another show that night too. I did LA later that night with the full band. So it was just a dope experience to have two shows in the Bay, LA, same night, 420. I'll never forget that at all. 

[00:17:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's an interesting crowd too, because their crowd is high as hell, and it is a midweek thing, too. So it's not the same way of, let's say a music festival where it's like, oh, three o'clock at the East stage, Eshu Tune is going to be there, right, so that's definitely a little bit of a different vibe than I feel like what that event is. 

[00:17:21] Hannibal Buress: Yeah, it was. But the one good thing, another good thing about is that I rehearsed right before. Like I landed, went to a rehearsal space, and then I ran through it. So when I got on stage, I felt good 'cause I was freshly rehearsed. So even though I wasn't rocking out, I kind of was in the zone, in a good space. But when I had a show in Philly for Adult Swim Fest, that one we were tapped in, had the band. I love having the band up there just because I feel like, you know, when you got the band, that's just a lot of energy on stage and you got to, I feel like, giving them a reason to be like, okay, why are we playing for this motherfucker? So then you got to bring the energy up even more to justify the band, you know, so that's always fun.

[00:18:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So how often are you doing shows right now? 

[00:18:15] Hannibal Buress: My last show was I popped out at this open mic in LA a couple of days ago, then before that was, what? 

[00:18:24] Dan Runcie: An open mic for music, to clarify.

[00:18:26] Hannibal Buress: Open mic for music. Yeah, open mic for music, did a few songs. And doing Wild 'N Out next week in Atlanta and probably do a popup or something in Atlanta, maybe. And then I'm starting up a residency in LA, six weeks at Grand Star Jazz Bar. That's going to start on September 26th, every Monday until October 31st 'cause I wanted to get that structure in. And then, you know, I used to host at Knitting Factory in Brooklyn and that kind of, like, having that consistency of doing a regular spot. I hadn't done that in a minute. And so when I did the last show at Knitting Factory, that location closed down, I did and so it reminded me of that energy and just of that, you know, having that regular spot where people know they can see me 'cause you can't always link up with friends or grab lunch and all of that. So you can kinda have the residency, people know where to find you. So I want to do that. I'm excited about doing that 'cause I think that'll help the writing 'cause it'll be like, okay, I got this show. I definitely have this show on Monday. Maybe I'll try this new song there. And then the rest of the week can kind of flow off of that. So I'm super excited about these six shows. I put 'em all on sale at once and it's nice to see they're flowing, you know? And so it is going to be, it's going to be a good time and then we'll see how we want to operate from there. But definitely doing those six in a row, man. 

[00:19:47] Dan Runcie: What was it like to get that process going for the residency specifically?

[00:19:52] Hannibal Buress: It was, you know, I went to the spot at Grand Star. I saw something there I've been there twice. It is really close to my spot. And then I just reached out to the owner online, walked over there, talked to him, told him what I was trying to do, told him I wanted Mondays. He was like, all right, you take the door, I'll take the bar. I ain't dealing with your ticketing, like this it. And then I was like, all right, let's get it. It was pretty straightforward and simple, you know. ' Cause I realized I wasn't, something about LA, it was making me stagnant on a live performance side and I was doing more gigs out of town. And I've done some stuff, but I wasn't really consistent locally. And so I just realized I had to create that. I couldn't be, you know, annoyed with the nightlife or performing if I wasn't really trying to do something about it. 

[00:20:45] Dan Runcie: Right, right. 

[00:20:46] Hannibal Buress: When I have that ability, it's not that tough to like, Hey, this is the place I do a show, you know? So I'm really hyped 'cause they'll be, you know, have a comedian or two and two or three music acts and get the book stuff that I'm a fan of and tape 'em. And the excitement of doing a show, like putting on a regular show after doing it for a while and doing it now with knowledge and knowing how to build the vibe and promote and all those things. It's going to be a blast. 

[00:21:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah. With that type of show specifically, you are also staying in the same spot. And I know that probably helps from a lifestyle perspective too. You have a young daughter, you know, you're not trying to, you know, be on the road, maybe, to the same extent.

[00:21:29] Hannibal Buress: Yeah, just the consistency of this is what, you know, for everybody, for the team, for the camera people, by the third show's, like, okay, this is my spots right here. Everybody being, you know, the timing of it, and it's just, I got to create that consistency for myself and that external pressure to do 'cause they're not all like everything else. 'Cause then once like, okay, Monday, this is what Mondays are no matter what. So then it's like, okay, well, it's Tuesday now since we only got six others. So like, okay, one of those has to be a studio day or this type of day or that. Or, you know, it forces the structure for the rest of it. So it's something I haven't had in a while like that consistency. So, you know, when I did have it in New York, it kind of led to the most productive times in my career and, yeah, the most profitable. 

[00:22:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, I feel like I'm seeing, hearing more artists talk about that, especially, we're seeing what's happening in Vegas. So many more artists, especially while they're still in their prime, taking the residencies there, too. And you're starting to see them more in different cities. And I like how you did where you're like, yeah, you essentially created your own opportunity where you're at. So and I feel like we're going to start to see more of that as I'm just seeing trends of how artists are thinking about doing things and where it makes sense to monetize in and where it doesn't.

[00:22:50] Hannibal Buress: Yeah. Just, you know, it's like, Hey, I booked myself for six, you know, I'm here. But even, you know, with that, it's a bunch of different things. And look, you could change up the core each week, you know what I mean? Change up the merch or change up the drinks or change, you know, all these different elements to keep it fresh since you learn in the space and learning the crowd. And you get to know the fans 'cause I'm sure, you know, folks go return, you know? So and having that data, too, of seeing that, you know, yeah, who you see exactly who I'm seeing, who’s buying the tickets and blah, blah, blah, and so can reach out direct. Thank you for your time, who are you listening to, you know? now it's like a kind of, It's going to be a new phase, man. And that's one thing, too, with the music is that younger hunger, 'cause it's a newer thing. It still has that feeling of I don't know what's going to happen. Right. You know, I could try to make things or put things, but the other parts of it, when you do that, make other things happen when you just, you know, action cause reaction. Even going to that open mic that I did the other night and ask this other person, Hey, come to this show, you know, shows beget shows. And so it's nice to have that momentum and that feel because the comedy side, I don't want to say it's predictable, but the goals kind of are, you could change up your special and, and different things, but the goals like, oh, blah, blah, blah, special, blah, blah, blah, move and you do this, too, but it feels super blank canvas a little bit.

[00:24:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I get the impression from you that there's part of that that is enjoyable. It's that challenge. It's like what keeps it fresh in a way, because, at least for comedy, you mentioned the predictability of it. Like, you knew what would work, you're getting the calls. Like, you know, you're still getting them up to this point. So this is an opportunity to be like, no, this is something I've always wanted to do. Let me tap in here and explore the unknown because, at least from the comedy side, even though that could be unknown to someone else, but you've been in this for decades now, you know? 

[00:24:50] Hannibal Buress: Yeah. At the open mic, it was a bunch of other artists, that was having the same conversations. Like, I didn't know you rapped, I didn't know you rapped, I didn't know you rapped. Like, yeah, I guess that's why I'm here. So now you know I rapped. And so to have, you know, it's still building that, you know, through word of mouth, through performing and, you know, a solid amount of time, but it's happening piece by piece where I'm, you know, seeing folks in public. Oh, I see you doing the music, yeah, keep doing, you know. Yeah, it feels good, man. It feels exciting. And it is just going to get better and keep learning and, you know, I got my drum set, you know, practice more, got keys, got to, you know, I want to in five years be full on musician be able to move around the whole kit, the whole, you know, all the instruments and, and really do a show show, you know?

[00:25:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah. By show show. What do you mean? 

[00:25:47] Hannibal Buress: Like, being able to, you know, like even have a band, like this one, I'm on keys, for this one...

[00:25:52] Dan Runcie: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:25:52] Hannibal Buress: But not fucking around on keys. Like, actually killing that shit. This one I'm hopping on the kit and like, not bullshit. I don't want to, you know, half-ass it like, oh yeah, he's up there. He's having fun. Then get the picture. No, I wanted to, you know, actually, be technically proficient at it. And I'm willing to work to get to that spot too. You know, but you got to lock in for that. So that's the real, real goal is to be able to even, in seven years, pop in on somebody's set only for drums and, like, nail it, you know what I mean? Like, okay, like he playing on somebody else's music, you know, and it like, yeah, that's the goal. Even if I'm 47, 50 when I'm able to do it, that's what I want to do. 

[00:26:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I feel like with you, too, you talked a little bit about the fan base piece of it, and you be able to see who's coming to the shows and seeing who the fans are. Do you feel like the fan base is slightly different in any way from your comedy fan base? 

[00:26:52] Hannibal Buress: It will be. It will be. Right now, there's a lot of overlap 'cause people that might be thinking, they're getting the comedy show and show up for the music and then they like, oh, okay, that was better than that. I didn't know that was happening. But there'll be some folks that weren't into my comedy at all that was like, okay, I like this I'm seeing some folks, I did Sway In The Morning, the freestyle, some people are like, I like this better than his comedy. And now I'm thinking me too. I do too, yeah. And then there'll be people that never knew I did comedy once, then when the music is discovered, if they find it through the algorithm or something, they'll be some folks like, what? This guy got four comedy specials, you know, especially when things start tapping on an international scale. If When I started touring in Asia, going over, you know, folks that they just find the music through the promoter or whoever, and then they like, what? You do music? So I'm excited for that part of it too, man. It's nice to, you know, and then I might rerelease Miami Nights, but just put music videos in between that shit.

[00:28:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah. 

[00:28:05] Hannibal Buress: Like, oh, y'all want Miami Nights? Well, here. And it’ll be like, and so, and then I said 2Chainz and like Veneers, Veeners, 1-3 Pocket, you know. There's a lot of moves to, you know, that just because I have that this older stuff and this older material to be able to maneuver and, you know, run ads against and all these different things, man. So it's just a lot of possibilities and ideas. It is fun, it's a fun time. Every day, I'm lit up, like excited, just because, you know, there's so much to do and so many different ideas. I'm and so it's just, I'm fully locked in, yeah. 

[00:28:45] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Where do you feel like your comedy itself fits within your career? 'Cause I know I've listened to past interviews you've done and you've said that, nope, I'm locked in on music right now. But I also know that you had said in other interviews that okay, maybe in three years, if I do another comedy special or make it all even stronger. So where does your comedy fit in for you right now? 

[00:29:08] Hannibal Buress: I could still do it. Because I did it last night at this private gig. And I did it when we did the last night at Knitting Factory, I planned on doing 10 minutes and I ended up going on a couple of tangents, did it in 20, 30. That was partially 'cause of the history of the room and that energy there and that's where I built that soul. And I still can write, you know, I do banter in between. I just don't think I foresee just me kind of grinding out in the clubs or, you know, trying to do for weekends for a while, unless it's just purely to pay for some last-minute music expense. It would be just purely that, if I'm at an improv or doing it if I'm billed as a standup publicly, that's where it's at right now. Even I did for the gig last night, I brought a keys player, Preach Balfour, he plays for my show sometimes, but it was just, I didn't feel like having the emptiness of just pure waiting for laughs. It's not going to be with a keys players the whole time and I'm telling these stories, these jokes, but it's not going to be dead in the room just because. It's like, I'm not giving y'all that as an audience. I'm not giving you the ability to have this shit be silent at the very least after I say something, it's going to be beautiful keys planted as motherfucker. So it's just that exercise of just the grind of what it takes to stay sharp as a standup, I don't feel like doing that anymore. I just find the music to be more enjoyable. And just, it has more, yeah, you just can go into a different direction, like everything don't have to be funny or everything don't have to be one level, you know what I mean? And so maybe down the line now, another one or, but as far as like working, working, I don't see it happening, yeah. 

[00:31:15] Dan Runcie: Has any of the reaction to how comedians have either been perceived or how they're being called upon to respond to particular things, especially in the past few years with how things happening on Twitter, has any of that impacted how you feel are your relationship to comedy or making it at all?

[00:31:36] Hannibal Buress: No, man. 'cause you just have to, you don't have to do anything out here unless you're on a show where you do that and you're contractually obligated. But even that is still a choice, you know what I'm saying? Everything is a choice. We could live in the woods, man, with no electricity if we choose to. We choose to be out here and perform, play video games, move about, you know, born into this, but you don't have to do none of the shit, all of it, all of it's made up. 

[00:32:11] Dan Runcie: Right. 

[00:32:12] Hannibal Buress: Yeah. 

[00:32:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because I feel like as you mentioned, yeah, a lot of it being made up probably makes people almost forget that they do have a choice in a lot of this because I feel like what I've seen or what I've heard from other comics sometimes is that just because of how things are with the climate or how people feel like they need to respond to particular things that there are comics that feel different, especially how things have happened, post-pandemic. But I feel like your mentality is a bit more like, Hey, we really don't have to like, just like whether it's people being canceled or people having backlash for things they say like, comics don't need to fit into fall into that.

[00:32:51] Hannibal Buress: You can just do what you want, you know? And that's one thing. And it's not to judge or say, oh, it's wrong. I see why people would feel pressure. And I get that, too, but it's, after a while you just really like, oh, it's now that I know exactly what I enjoy, and I know the spots where I am truly having fun and losing track of time and enjoying life. And so I just try to spend as much time in those spots and spaces as I can and leave the other shit alone. It takes practice. It's a great theory. It ain't fully perfect, but it's a solid system for me. 

[00:33:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, yeah. Has there been a bit of a connection to other comedians that have went into music? Thinking about something like a Jamie Foxx or someone like that, that, you know, someone else like yourself, multi-talented and has, you know, had success in both areas. Is there kind of like a, okay, you know, you see that others have done this, or do you really feel like, no, this is even more unique thing? 

[00:34:01] Hannibal Buress: I respect, definitely respect what they've done. The timing is different for how I'm doing it. So that's why it's kind of, it's tough to compare a little bit the approach because it is been a minute. But it makes it interesting for me just from having stuff to talk about, too, for doing it so long 'cause sometimes I'm like, maybe I should have started when I was 23, but I think it happened when it was supposed to happen, and it happened when I was ready for it to really happen. But yeah, I watched, you know, like Jamie is amazing, you know? What Gambino's done, it's really dope. I saw Lil Duval write his Living My Best Life, was popping. I saw him. 

[00:34:42] Dan Runcie: That was a good song. 

[00:34:43] Hannibal Buress: He did good with that one. He was at the Stress Factory in Jersey as the song was peaking, and he was definitely too big for that room, but it made the energy...

[00:34:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah.

[00:34:55] Hannibal Buress: He was, like, crazy. He hit the stage to it. Like it was dope to see, man, like I was genuinely excited, and you could feel that he was hyped about it too, man. So it is dope to see when people just go for it in that way, and then we just making this shit, you can really do anything. I have to remind myself of that, too. Just really do anything, man. Just, you know, just go for this shit. I got this song, No Whip. It is a freestyle. It's a 7-minute freestyle about how I was living in Hawaii last year. I bought a car there,, and then I took a trip and then we ended up moving, but I didn't go back to like send the car and I've been planning to, but it's just kind of one of them things where I just, out of sight out of mind. And it ain't really, you know, causing a strain on my life, right? But it is, it's kind of, I bought this whip left in Hawaii, blah blah. And it's like, it's a loose freestyle. And I'm like, you know what, man, I'm going to shoot this part here, part in Hawaii, and just keep it at seven minutes 'cause you can just do that. The instinct is like, oh no, maybe I need to, I'm being repetitive, so maybe I should cut. I'm like, no, shoot that shit rough. Like, make it look as dope as possible. Like, shoot it rough freestyle dope and have fun and then just let it fly and just don't put the constraints on yourself unnecessarily. It's easy to try to overedit sometimes or get it. And so it's just, getting better at trusting myself, which was the initial hurdle It was just, okay, let me do this. There was nobody like, you can't make music, man. What are you, like? It was kind of me battling initially. And then once I dropped it and then, you know, now, okay. And then just rewiring my brain to, okay, I am doing this and keep doing it. It's like, okay, well, we are doing this for real, you know, no matter, no matter what. That's why I find it, like, absurd when people reach out and like, stop. That's weird. Like, you realize I'm a very, I'm a very stubborn person. Like, I'm not doing it to show you up. Like, this is like, I'm already way more locked in than you could ever imagine. So, you know, why you would ever tell me to stop. It's weird. But then I know that that person's not locked in on whatever they want to do if the time to tell me to stop. Yeah, but it's that I don't even get mad is just more like what, what? That's a weird thing to like, why stop? You realize even if my music was completely trash, I would still be able to figure it out from a marketer standpoint. I'd still be able to work some angle in this shit. But it's, you know, it's exciting, man. 

[00:37:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's an exciting time, man. What has the response been like from the hip-hop community?

[00:37:50] Hannibal Buress: It's been dope, man. Went on Sway In The Morning, did my written freestyle. I bothered Questlove when The Roots were performing at Pitchfork. They let me rock up there. So I got to rap with Black Thought, you know. It's been good, man. The Sway, the Sway interview helped, you know, I got a bunch of friends that I've worked with that I send stuff to sometimes. So the people that really know me, like know me know me, know that I've been working on things for a while and been building. So they've been super supportive and especially the ones that know what the grind has been and know how I've been working. So it is been dope, man. I'm just, I'm excited to just keep pushing, putting together shows and it's a fun time with just lots of possibilities and shit. 

[00:38:40] Dan Runcie: Exciting time, man. Exciting stuff. So before we close things out, what should the audience stay in tune for? What does the next year look like for Eshu Tune and what should they keep locked in for?

[00:38:52] Hannibal Buress: The plan is to drop the full album on my 40th birthday, February 4th, '23. So I got a couple of songs done for it, going to start the sessions for it next month in November and December, hopefully, shoot videos, December. January, drop a single on New Year's Eve. And then 40th birthday album, I don't know what the title is going to be yet. 40-year-old freshman, 4 HB, 4 Eshu, 40, 244. I don't know, something like that, but I feel like 40th birthday is a good, drop date. Yeah, so that's the plan. And so I'll use the time leading up, you know, to start purging old stuff, you know what I mean? Use that to kind of, you know, drop loosies and different things and even drop some of the older comedy stuff I got, I've been hoarding. And so I want to also, in addition to having the Mondays residency, use the Mondays as a drop date, you know, for new content, old content to start just really, really getting stuff out and start just to free my brain up, 'cause there's a lot of, even though I'm making stuff and dropping stuff, there's a lot of other stuff that I think needs to just be let go, let the birds fly and then it'll help the creativity more.

[00:40:12] Dan Runcie: I hear that. In terms of other stuff too. I think I remember seeing you, you had a song called Numbers. Is that a kid song? Is that one of those things you're going to be putting out there? 

[00:40:21] Hannibal Buress: I don't know if I'm going to lean too heavily into the kid songs yet, or maybe under an alias. I might start dropping, but yeah. I've been seeing some of, who's it, Gracie's? 

[00:40:29] Dan Runcie: Gracie's Corner? 

[00:40:30] Hannibal Buress: Gracie's Corner and then another one where they got the trap kind of kid stuff. Maybe Numbers was fun to do. I did that, yeah. Shout out to Shaliek on the beat for Numbers. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. One robot, two robots. The robots is an ongoing theme in my music also. 

[00:40:51] Dan Runcie: Hey, man, we're excited for all of it, man. 

[00:40:53] Hannibal Buress: Yeah. 

[00:40:54] Dan Runcie: Tons of respect for you, man. 

[00:40:55] Hannibal Buress: Hey, thank you, man. Thanks and good talking with you, Dan, for sure. 

[00:40:57] Dan Runcie: Always been. 

[00:40:58] Hannibal Buress: Yep.

[00:41:00] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2494 no The Music Industry’s Oversaturation Problem https://www.trapital.com/podcast It’s never been easier for artists to release music and find an audience in any corner of the world. Likewise, it’s never been more difficult for artists to break through the noise. The Internet and streaming services have created a double-edged sword for rising artists. To discuss this, Tatiano Cirisano joined me on the show. Tati is a music analyst at MIDiA Research and a former reporter at Billboard. Tati released a research piece a few weeks ago that argues the music industry is oversaturated and fragmented — more than ever before. This shift has created a new class system for artists. In Group 1 are artists that reached prominence pre-streaming in a less cluttered marketplace (e.g. Beyonce or AC/DC). Class 2 consists of artists who rose in parallel with the proliferation of streaming. Drake and Taylor Swift fall into this category. And then there’s the Class 3, that includes newer artists, who try to cultivate audiences in today’s hyper-competitive landscape against the other two groups.  Tati believes the trend line for the music industry’s fragmentation is clearly pointing up. To understand how we got here, why it matters, and how it redefines success, you’ll want to listen to our interview. Here’s our biggest talking points:  [3:11] Why consumption is now fragmented [8:41] Music superstars losing their reach [10:55] Modern artists valuing fame less than prior generations [13:24] Benefits to fragmentation [14:48] Updated benchmark for artist success [16:50] Active vs. passive listening [18:53] Music industry is still tied to album sales [25:34] Artists segmenting audiences by platform [30:18] Trap of taking users off native platforms [32:59] Content is becoming more important than the creator [37:35] YouTube and other potential outlier platforms for audience-building  You can read Tati’s full report here: https://midiaresearch.com/blog/music-is-not-a-level-playing-field-it-is-a-field-of-all-levels Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Tatiana Cirisano, @tatianacirisano     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Tatiana Cirisano: Fame is actually really low on the list of priorities of artists today. And whether that's because they don't really want it or because they just don't think it's achievable is kind of another layer to that, but the top two things are earning a sustainable income and achieving recognition within their scene. Artists' definitions of success are changing, but I don't know if the music industry is really catching onto that or really supporting that because the music business is a hits business and record labels are trying to create superstars and drive culture. [00:00:38] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:58] Dan Runcie: Today's conversation is all about why the stars of today cannot be compared to the stars of yesterday in the music industry. And when I'm talking about yesterday, I'm not talking about 20, 30 years ago. I'm talking about 3, 4 even 5 years ago. The era that Drake and even Post Malone and some of these other artists came up in cannot be compared to what's happening with the artist today and that's as it relates to streaming, as it relates to TikTok and all the ways that things are fragmented in the creator economy. And it was great to be joined by Tatiana Cirisano. She is a music industry analyst at MIDiA Research, where she has written some insightful pieces and breakdowns on this topic in a whole lot more. We talked about the impacts and the current landscape of the streaming era, and what it looks like for artists that are prioritizing their growth and perfecting what they can do on one platform as opposed to spreading it on others. We also talked about some of the trade-offs and some of the challenges for artists in the creator economy and a whole lot more. She does some great research on this topic. So definitely check out the work she does at MIDiA Research if you haven't yet, here's our conversation. Hope you enjoy it. All right, today, we are joined by music industry analyst, Tati Cirisano, who is going to help us solve all of the music industry problems today. Are you ready?  [00:02:22] Tatiana Cirisano: One can hope. I'll do my best.  [00:02:25] Dan Runcie: So what sparked this conversation was a really insightful piece that you had put out recently through MIDiA Research, and this was about the different levels of artists and where they are specifically in the streaming era. And you had this really good breakdown on how you had the artists that were already established in the streaming era such as your AC/DCs or your Beyoncés, they were established before streaming became a thing. You had the artists that were, folks like your Drakes or even your Taylor Swifts that rose while streaming was really huge. And then you have your artists today. Could you talk a little bit about how that differentiation between those groups impacts success and what achieving success looks like today? [00:03:11] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I'll kind of back up a little bit to what is underlying all of that, which is just the fragmentation of consumption. And that's something that we study a lot at MIDiA, and it basically means that you know, with people able to, through streaming, access all the music they could ever want to and listen at any time that they want to, and also with these increasingly sophisticated algorithms kind of pushing people to niches. It follows that there are kind of less mainstream moments or mainstream stars and more of these stars just for individuals and their communities or their niches. And I think that's something that we've all kind of experienced at some point, like, maybe there's an artist that you're obsessed with and all of your friend's love, and you mention it to a friend that is in another circle and they're like, who's that? I mean, I get that reaction. I've gotten that reaction talking about Bad Bunny before, and he is the top streamed artist in the world. So I think we've all had like this anecdotal experience of you thinking that something is mainstream, but it's not as mainstream as you think it is and that is the fragmentation at work. So this is happening on a really, really accelerated scale now. Just because of how everything is online and on demand and because of these algorithms. So we're in this situation where the artists that are competing today are in a much more oversaturated and fragmented landscape where it's a lot harder to have a mainstream impact than the artists that were even chasing success three years ago, five years ago, ten years ago. So the way that I had kind of broken it down, and I think you could actually break it down way further, which I think we're going to talk about is yeah, the artists that came up before all of this, pre-streaming, really, which are the AC/DCs, even a little bit of like the Beyoncés, and because they built their fan bases at a time before everything was so fragmented and cluttered, they're still, like, building on that today. They're still kind of riding that wave. And then you have the artists who came up kind of at the beginning of streaming and before all the second-order impacts happened. So basically streaming did democratize the playing field. It did make it so that way more artists could find their audiences. And there were all these benefits at the beginning, and artists like Drake, Taylor Swift, and Ed Sheeran really benefited from that. But now we're at a point where streaming has also contributed to this really oversaturated landscape, this really fragmented landscape. And it's only getting more and more so every year. And so the artists that are competing in that landscape now face really, really unique challenges, yet they're still competing in the same field as the Drakes, as the Beyoncés, as the AC/DCs. So because so much of this change has happened in just, like, 5 or 10 years, we're in a situation where the artists of today have very, very different challenges than, I think, even the artists of 2020, like the pace of fragmentation, is just insane. And I have data on that too, that I can share.  [00:06:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It would be great to dig more into that 'cause you've mentioned 2020. I look back on that year, especially, maybe the year leading into that, Billie Eilish was someone that was being talked about more and more, and she, of course, ended up sweeping the Grammys that year. But even when she came up, things are even more different now than back then, to your point.  [00:06:20] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. I really like the data that BPI pulls on this in there, I think it's called All About the Music. They have this annual report, and they look at, this is only in the UK, but they look at what percentage of total annual audio streams go towards the top 100 tracks? So, like, how much the hits are dominating basically? And that percentage has halved, more than halved, in the past 5 years. So you see that, like, we still have superstars, but their impact is just kind of lessening. And more, more consumption is going towards sort of like the mid-tier of artists, but it's spread across them. So it's just harder and harder to kind of have an impact. So, yeah, I think Billie Eilish is, it's funny, I feel like she's such a tough one because I try to use her as examples all the time, and I'm always like, but she is the exception to every rule because she is, like, such a talent. And, you know, I feel like it's hard to use her as an example in things, but I do think that she even came up in a much less cluttered space. I think that was like, more like 2017, 2018 pre-TikTok. And that's actually another division that I would make. Like yes, because of TikTok, the app itself, but also because of the fragmentation that it kind of has fostered and that other platforms are now following the footsteps of. [00:07:38] Dan Runcie: It's interesting because the BPI data is essentially telling us that a superstar has around half the reach that they maybe once did, or half of that footprint that they did. And it's one of those things where, of course, there's that cultural aspect of wanting to feel like something is big enough, so that, yeah, you're not asking your friends about Bad Bunny. And even though he's a global superstar, people still don't know who he is, but is this necessarily an issue as it relates to artists? Because a lot of it does reflect on the expectations that someone may have for their career, so I wonder has the industry itself adapted to the expectations, right? I think a lot of folks understand that no one is necessarily going to have that 1960s Beatlemania level of fame, or even 1980s, Michael Jackson level of fame. But do you feel like people have come around to the fact that no one is going to have 2015 Drake or 2014 Taylor Swift level of fame? Do you feel like that has sunk in yet?  [00:08:41] Tatiana Cirisano: That's a really good question. That's a really, really good question because so much of this is about, like, how we define success in the first place, right? So at MIDiA, we do these surveys of creators where one of the questions we ask every year is what is your definition of success? And we're finding that, while in the past, the music industry was very much associated with, like, fame and fortune, and like, that was kind of, like, what you're going after as an artist. Fame is actually really low on the list of priorities of artists today. It's the last thing. And whether that's because they don't really want it or because they just don't think it's achievable is kind of another layer to that that I'm not sure the answer to, but the top two things that they choose are earning a sustainable income and achieving recognition within their scene. And I think that's why so many artists are sort of enticed by the creator economy model because that's what you're doing, right? You're earning a sustainable living from, you know, your biggest fans or the people that are recognizing you within your scene. There are a lot of problematic things about the creator economy and maybe that's for another episode, but like, I think that what I'm trying to say is I think that artists' definitions of success are changing, but I don't know if the music industry is really catching onto that or really supporting that because the music business is a hits business and record labels are trying to create superstars and drive culture. And if the mainstream is almost nonexistent these days, like how do you do that? I do think that the sort of silver lining to it is that these sort of like more niche communities behind these, like, smaller stars are more engaged anyways. So it's like, do you want this, like, are you trying to go after this passive majority that, you know, maybe isn't ever going to be that engaged with your music, or would you rather go from a bottom-up approach and kind of find your audience, your niche, and builds from there. And I think that that can be really, really powerful, and we're kind of entering this age of like cult stars rather than superstars in that sense. I forget what you even. Ask me that launch beyond this rant.  [00:10:52] Dan Runcie: That was good though.  [00:10:54] Tatiana Cirisano: Those are my thoughts on success. [00:10:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like that was relevant though that, 'cause cult stars is a great way to capture this because I think shadowing back to the first thing that you said fab and fortune were so linked from the legacy of the music industry. And in many ways, they were linked that you couldn't really achieve one without the other. There was no one that was making 10 million a year from music as an artist that people really didn't know about to a certain level in terms of their take-home pay, not in terms of, you know, the money that they're generating, but today it's completely different. And of course, yeah, we mentioned how someone like Bad Bunny may be unknown to those outside of the circles. But I think we see this even more so because it's easier to achieve some of those fortunes without that same level of fame. I look at someone like Russ who, you know, he shares his TuneCore receipts and how, I forget whatever number he is pulling in, whether it's 6 figures a week or a month, or however much he's getting there, but he's clearly showing that he can pull in millions. And I mean, Russ, his music doesn't hit my circles, and if anything, the more news I hear about Russ is more related to his earnings and how he manages as an independent artist, not necessarily his music itself. And I think that speaks to me not necessarily being in that cult itself, right? But I still think that there is a space and opportunity for those artists that clearly want fame and fortune. You know, if you want to be able to perform in an arena and sell it out and gross, however many millions or, you know, doing the same thing in stadiums, you do have to likely follow a lot of the same traditional things from that path level, but still, even fame from that perspective doesn't hit the same way that it did. So it's a really fascinating time, and yeah, I think a lot of it does go back to both artists' expectations and the industry expectations, if the industry and the artists still have these dreams of thinking that artists can reach the levels of fame that artists did even 6, 7 years ago, then that's where people should probably be taking, 'cause I've had this conversation with so many people and they'll mention examples like, oh, well look at BTS. Oh, well look at Bad Bunny. Oh, well look at so and so, and I do think that there's something to be said for just the global aspect of the fame is just how music is reaching in different areas, and maybe that probably reflects that the people that are closest to that global superstar level, maybe just because of how saturated the US is, they're more likely to come from elsewhere, but who knows?  [00:13:24] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, no. And there's also, like, a lot of benefits to this fragmentation, right? Like I feel like I, the way I'm talking about this is very like doom and gloom. but it's also very beneficial to, like, the middle tier and long tail of artists that, you know, they're actually able to have audiences. The tricky thing though is that it's still so hard to break through. It's such a fascinating conversation to have because whenever we present this data on fragmentation and our thinking around it, the question from labels is always like, okay, but how do we drive culture? How do we create those moments? How do we make something mainstream? And I think there's an opportunity to kind of, like, labels are really top heavy, right? They're focusing on like the top three artists in their roster, making them superstars, and I feel like there's maybe an opportunity to spread resources more evenly across the middle and create those kind of cult stars that we were just talking about. So I think it is about changing your definition of success. I just don't know, you know, if the music industry wants to. But they might have to, I don't know.  [00:14:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because to your point, it could be potentially even more profitable to reflect the current playing field and invest in the people that have these niches, and knowing that even though it's not going to reach everyone if this person is reaching their tribe of people, then they can double down on that. And it could probably end up being even more successful, you investing all your resources to sell you know, three artists on your roster telling that they can be the next Drake. [00:14:48] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, no, and talking about this is reminding me too of I think we both wrote about the Gunna and The Weeknd album release week, like, whenever that was, time is flying. I think that was like earlier in the year. And how, even though the weekend is like objectively a household name, a bigger star, Gunna had this more engaged niche fan base that, you know, latched onto this P phenomenon and it ended up vaulting him maybe into the mainstream. 'cause the album debuted at number one. So it's like, which of those scenarios is success? You know, like the P phenomenon that happened, so many people didn't even know that that was going on. It totally bypassed, like, the majority of the population, right? But for the target audience, it felt mainstream. And I think that that's like, what's so different about this current moment is that something can feel mainstream to that circle, but totally bypass the rest of the population.  [00:15:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And there are so many factors at play in that that gets into this broader question that I've been thinking a lot about in terms of what does the closest thing we have to a benchmark for success look like, right? Because someone could easily look at that weekend that The Weeknd releases Dawn FM, and Gunna releases his album and Gunna outsells him, and then someone can think, oh, well, look at Gunna, you know, already selling more than the guy that performed at the Super Bowl. But if you look at it another way, The Weeknd is selling out stadiums right now and one of a handful of artists that can do that. And I love Gunna, I think he's had a great rise in everything, but he's nowhere near being able to sell out that much, at least in terms of where he is in his career right now. He could get there someday, but he's not there right now. So I feel like even that makes me wonder, okay, is streaming itself as a predictor for concert tickets or other things becoming harder to inform what it is really reflecting, or is that just its own individual metric that we are looking at?  [00:16:50] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, I think it is becoming harder to use stream counts as a metric for fandom and for culture because I think those things are building off of streaming platforms. Like, fandom is building on, you know, TikTok or Twitch or wherever, whereas streaming is a lot more of a passive activity. So that's another thing is like, I feel like we need new metrics and one of them is, like, active versus passive listening, which is something that's kind of hard to track. How do you do that as a streaming platform? So yeah, I think streams don't always equal fans and that's becoming more and more true. It's just, it's a lot harder to discern.  [00:17:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And that goes back into this broader question of the Billboard 200 and how it's trying to both combine streams, and pure album sales, and all these things to get to these numbers that we have. And it's becoming tougher and tougher to use that as a metric of what success is. If anything, these things are more reflecting, marketing budgets than they are popularity of the actual underlying music. And although the marketing was always tied with it, this is another thing that's separating further and further. And it reminds me of something that I know that MIDiA has talked about often in terms of measuring the success for these superstars when they do release albums. Remember Mark had that breakdown about Adele and how it should be, how her album for 30, we can't even compare what she had done when 25 came out in 2015, different era. She did pure CD sales and you could do that in 2015. You can't do that now. Although I think that vinyls have brought back an interesting conversation with some of this, but still it's difficult to do that, and it's making me think again because you had something similar when we looked at Beyoncé and I don't think you can necessarily compare Renaissance's numbers to Lemonade or the self-titled album before that. And we're going to have this conversation again when Taylor Swift's Midnight album comes out in a couple of months. [00:18:53] Tatiana Cirisano: No, it's so true. And I actually, I had that exact conversation with someone recently about, you know, the Billboard 200 and the Hot 100 and how it's not necessarily measuring, there's a lot of places that get left out from that count in terms of how people are consuming music. Like, I think so much of listening is happening and the fandom around it is happening off platform these days or off DSPs. It's happening like on TikTok and all these other spaces, in games, you know, wherever. And I don't know if we're accurately measuring that. I also don't think that, like I said, we're measuring so much, you know, active versus passive listening and these sort of segments of fans on streaming. Like, streaming kind of equates everyone as the same consumer, right, whether you're a super fan or whether you just press play on a playlist and sit back, you're still paying the same. You're still kind of equated as the same thing. So the question is how should we measure success today? Or how should we measure cultural impact? It's so hard 'cause I think in a lot of ways it goes beyond music. Like, if you're an artist who has really had a cultural impact, that impact is transcending music anyway, and that's kind of what it means to be like an icon or to be a cultural icon in that way. So I don't know. It's really tough not to crack. Like, a lot of these things are qualitative, right? Like, how do you measure the cultural impact that something has? And I don't think that it necessarily parallels commercial success. Like, you can have something that had a huge cultural impact on a certain group but didn't really hit the charts or change the way that people think about making music but didn't really hit consumers the same way. So now I'm just ranting and rambling. [00:20:34] Dan Runcie: Let's explore this a bit though.  [00:20:36] Tatiana Cirisano: It's tough.  [00:20:37] Dan Runcie: Let's explore a bit though because you brought up this point about active versus passive listening. So if I'm understanding you correctly, even if we started there, active listening is Gunna's album's coming out, I'm a Gunna fan, it's midnight. I want to press play and hear this album on Friday morning.  [00:20:55] Tatiana Cirisano: That would be a great metric to know is, right, and I guess we have first-day streams as kind of an indicator.  [00:21:01] Dan Runcie: But I guess you're saying, that's different from passive listening, which may be it's Friday. I just want to put RapCaviar on and then boom, RapCaviar has eight tracks that are going to be in the first 20 tracks that I just play as I'm going to work or something. [00:21:17] Tatiana Cirisano: Right. Exactly. And I think that's where it's more and more difficult to know, and it would be really helpful information for artists to have as well because if you're going to go this route that we've been talking about of, you know, finding your niche and finding your biggest fans and sort of going from a bottom-up approach in this fragmented environment, trying to become a cult star, you need to know who your most active listeners are, and I think that's really hard for artists to know today.  [00:21:43] Dan Runcie: I think part of the other challenge, too, with any type of metric is that the music industry itself is still tied to album sales. So anything that can translate back to that will always be there. So even if streams are how majority of music consumption is happening, as it relates to chart performance, it's always going to be challenging from that perspective because I feel like the resurgence of vinyl brings back an opportunity to push these things. I look at how well Harry Styles' album had performed, but a majority of the sales from that album was because of the vinyl that he had that was sold with it. But given all the shortages, how much of Harry Styles' performance is based on the pure demand that he had, which I know, obviously, he sold them. But because of how high his number is relative to, let's say some other artists that are signed to Sony and Columbia, what if they had the same type of inventory? I think that I had similar questions thinking about whether it was a Beyoncé or even a Kendrick Lamar. If they had the amount of vinyl inventory that he had, would it be a completely different discussion? I feel like the two of them maybe had around 300,000 or so first-week album sales, Harry Styles was over half a million. But if we were to still give them all the same inventory on that perspective, what that would look like? So there's all these ways that when you look at the data, it's telling you completely different things, but people are still just responding to the top line revenue number, and it brings us back into this whole thing that we just talked about with Gunna versus The Weeknd where it's like, okay. Yep, these numbers may tell you something, but when you really dig in, it's something completely different. So it becomes a mess to try to quantify.  [00:23:37] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, exactly. You hit the nail on the head. [00:23:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because the comparison I've always had as a joke is like let's say that the music industry was still stuck on trying to measure everything by DVD and VHS sales, right? So they had some amalgamation of some calculation that had whatever percentage of streams that you had on Netflix that was weighted with this, plus how many VHS sales you had, plus how many DVD sales, and this gives you a DVD equivalent unit. If you presented that metric to someone, someone would be like, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life.  [00:24:13] Tatiana Cirisano: Right, right.  [00:24:13] Dan Runcie: They would laugh at you out of the door, but that's what we've normalized in the music at this time. [00:24:19] Tatiana Cirisano: That's what we're doing. Isn't that just a metaphor for so much? Yeah, it's true. I also think it goes back to exactly what you're saying about, maybe these charts are more indicating the marketing budget and you know, how they decided about bundles or we're going to sell vinyl or whatever we're going to do to try to make it to the top of the charts. And I wonder what these charts would look like weighted differently, or we are talking about fragmentation. It's so fascinating to look at, you know, the charts across different platforms and see that they're totally different. So I do wonder a lot, like what are we actually measuring when we're looking at, you know, the Hot 100 or the Billboard 200. [00:24:57] Dan Runcie: Great question and great segue, too, 'cause I wanted to chat with you about this, how you look at a lot of these platform charts, especially the non-digital streaming providers and the artists who are on the top look completely different. You even see this a little bit with some of the DSPs as well, where some of the artists on top of your Amazon and Apple music may look a little different from what you see on Spotify. What's your take on that overall and do you think that artists themselves should be keeping this in mind when they are focusing or when they are thinking about how best to build an audience?  [00:25:34] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, no. I mean, I think that it's just another really apparent reflection of the fragmentation that's happening. And I think it does make sense knowing all this as an artist to rather than try and dominate every platform, which is next to impossible, trying to kind of find where you fit in and dominate there. And that is sort of like that bottom-up approach, but from a platform perspective, and also might, like, reduce the feeling from artists that they need to be, you know, popular everywhere and they need to be churning out content on every platform and all that. I think the risk though, is that, especially when we're talking about non-DSP, there's artists that maybe have the most followers on TikTok, but they're not being followed for their music. They're being followed 'cause they make funny videos or their song has the most uses because it's become a joke that people are sharing around and not as many people are streaming it offline. So I think it is a good idea as an artist to maybe figure out what platform fits you best, but you also need to understand, like, the particular sort of idiosyncrasies of each of those platforms. I also think, I think you've written about this a lot like segmenting your audience across platforms as a strategy. And I think that's another way that you can kind of use this information as an artist if you know that you have an audience on one platform that is looking for this specific thing and another, that's looking for another, why not, you know, release your full album on Spotify, but you know, the deluxe edition only on Patreon for your biggest supporters or something like that. Or even, there's this indie artist mxmtoon, who I think is a really interesting example of like a modern-day sort of artist slash creator where she has a presence on pretty much every platform. YouTube, she has a podcast, she's on TikTok, she has like a Discord, I think. But every single one of those is used for something totally different. And she has audiences that kind of funnel through all of them. But YouTube is where she does ukulele tutorials and, like, TikTok is where she does Q and As, and the Discord is where the true fans go to congregate. And that's also a path that may be unsustainable for a lot of artists, and I don't like, I'm not trying to suggest that everyone should be on every platform, you know, there are eight octopus arms, like doing all the things. I think that's one of the, like, things that's problematic about the creator economy, but, but yeah, I do think that it's really valuable for artists to understand this fragmentation and how it plays out on different platforms because I do think there are ways to navigate that and kind of use it to your advantage.  [00:28:07] Dan Runcie: There's definitely a benefit to focus here. And this, as you mentioned, spans beyond artists. It does look at everyone that is a creator. And maybe just for clarity for the folks listening, when we're talking about DSPs, we're specifically talking about the ones that a lot of people are paying monthly subscriptions to, so your Spotify, Amazon, Apple music. When we're talking about non- DSPs, we're talking about the place where you could still hear music and artists can still build platforms, but they're not in the same type of way as the other. So we're talking about TikTok, we're also talking about YouTube and maybe some of the other platforms there, although YouTube does have some hybrid tendencies there, but to level set that piece of it. I do think that focus helps a lot because I look at someone like an NBA YoungBoy and how he's been able to just blow up and dominate on YouTube. That takes time of really understanding the algorithm, understanding what works here, and just given how big the platform is that did help him grow and have traction on Apple music, on Spotify, and on other places. So I've heard a lot of people refer to this 80-20 rule. That's a lot of content creators, which I think could be helpful for artists as well, where if there was a platform that you're focusing 80% of your time to try to focus on and just understand, especially if there's an advantage there where others that are in your niche, maybe aren't necessarily doing as much. And then you're still having your feet in the others to just understand what those opportunities could look like. I feel like that type of approach could work well because that's how you get to the levels of, you mentioned the independent artists who essentially tailored so much of the content for each area. And while there's a lot that benefits there, obviously, it isn't completely scalable, but I feel like that's how you get to these things. And we've seen other examples of how people have just focused on a particular platform or just doubled down the risk of that. Of course, when we can talk about this in a minute, is that you do relinquish a lot of your power to any decision that that platform does make, especially if you're relying on so much of it for your business when you necessarily own anything underneath that. So there's definitely trade-offs, but there's benefits too.  [00:30:18] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, no, that's a huge issue there. Which we'll get, yeah, we'll get into more of that, that stuff in a minute, but this approach of like focusing on a platform also means that you're seeing these non- DSP platforms as a form of consumption in their own right, rather than just using them as a funnel to streaming, which I think is like a trap that the music industry has kind of fallen into is, oh, make something go viral on TikTok and then push everybody to Spotify. And it's like, if the fandom and the culture and a lot of consumption is happening on TikTok, you're leaving that on the table when you're pushing people to Spotify. And you know, I think that there's a lot to be gleaned there, and we should start thinking about these platforms as their own consumption platforms in their own right. [00:30:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah. As a content creator myself, I've heard a lot of people use that analogy of give, give, give, give, give, and then ask. So it's not like you're just going there and asking and trying to transport folks over. You're still making some enough effort to make sure that you're connecting authentically with the folks on the platform, but you still know that when there was time for an ask, you're thoughtful about how you're doing, and you're not doing it all the time because trying to take people off the platform, especially TikTok, which has grown in so many ways because of passive engagement, it's even harder.  [00:31:31] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, yeah, no, I think this is something that you wanted to get into anyway, but just, like, the objectives of the platform and the creator are totally different because the platform has the best-case scenario when there is all this passive viewing and people are just scrolling endlessly and they're spending a lot of time on the platform, but that's not the best case scenario for the creator. So the audience and the platform get all the benefit. And the creator kind of falls to the wayside. And I think that's a big issue that we're seeing in the creator economy.  [00:31:57] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And this is a big issue that I know that people have had about Web 2.0 more broadly and just how this can be improved. The challenge I've seen though is that any type of platform I've seen that does try to be more creator-focused and doesn't try to do the same things that marginalize the content that the creators make, a lot of those platforms struggle to gain traction, or they're only used in these niche type of ways. So it creates a bit of this double-edged sword where the creators themselves feel like, well, if I focus on the platforms that are solely built to cater to me and prioritize me over the content, then it's going to be hard to get the users there because it isn't designed in a way to keep the users engaged, just thinking about the extent that the more popular platforms do and more popular platforms are the ones that prioritize the content over the creators. So it's one of these unfortunate situations that has continued on and on, and that's why we're at the point we are now. [00:32:59] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, I think that we do see that happen more often than not. And before we even got to this point where content is becoming more important that the creator, which I could talk about in a minute the objectives are just totally, like I said, misaligned, like the platforms need scale. They need to monetize. All of the combined audiences of these individual creators. But the creators are looking more so for fan bases and engaged followers than they are looking for, you know, these passive audiences. So it actually, I think a lot of the struggles that creators are having with these platforms sort of echo issues that artists have had with streaming platforms in really interesting ways. Because it's similar to how like rights holders, like labels are monetizing scale of being able to own all of the songs and therefore all of the audiences of dozens, if not hundreds of artists, but those artists individually will never have enough scale to earn a meaningful income from streaming. And I think the same sort of thing is playing out with creators now where the platform is getting all the benefit because they get the combination of all these audiences and it's best for them. If people are just mindlessly scrolling, whereas creators have just totally different objectives and a different way of earning money. And then the current algorithm, or like the one that everyone's trying to kind of copy, which is TikTok, is making matters worse because there's no need to even actually follow anyone or, you know, really engage that much with the platform because you're going to be served content that is tailor-made for you regardless. So we're kind of teaching people with that kind of discovery-focused feed, not to actually follow individuals and more to just expect this constant flow of content. And again, going back to the parallels with streaming, it's interesting how we went from a few years ago, talking about TikTok as this amazing democratizing force to now talking about how well, yeah, it's democratized 'cause everybody can post anything, but it's impossible for anyone to get heard. We've gone through the same trajectory with streaming where, 5 years ago, we were all saying, oh, my God, streaming is great. It's democratized the industry. And in many ways it has, but now we're seeing all these second-order impacts where it's really, really hard for anyone to break through the noise, and it's really, really hard for anyone to earn meaningful income, so, yeah.  [00:35:14] Dan Runcie: The pattern is clear. You laid it out perfectly.  [00:35:17] Tatiana Cirisano: It's crazy.  [00:35:17] Dan Runcie: And one thing about TikTok, everyone talks about how quick it is to grow a following, how favorable the algorithm is when you start off, and all those things are intentional. It is the easiest platform to be able to gain tens of thousands of followers and even more, but it's the hardest to be able to translate those followers into actual fans because it's more likely that they are going to be passive folks that are engaging versus active ones. And we're going to see more and more of that, especially given to goals to try to expand into so many other places, and then additionally, every other app trying to copy what TikTok is doing, because they see that being the norm. And now that that's what they see as the standard operating procedure for how to keep people's attention and engagement, everyone is trying to have their own version of that. [00:36:09] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, you know, and I think that people do have an appetite for, like, wanting to follow individuals. I mean, that's what everything has been based on up until now. And people were annoyed when Meta changed its algorithm and said, it's all going to be discovery-focused now because you go to Instagram to see updates from your friends and people that you follow, not to just get this feed of things that you've people you've never heard of. So I think that there is still, like, an appetite for that. And there's sort of a chance to recalibrate and allow more ways to actually follow creators and not just make it all about each individual piece of content. But I think that we're kind of in a critical window right now to preserve that. And I don't know if we're talking about this enough. Yeah, it's just the situation, like to kind of bring it back to artists is really difficult because you need every individual thing that you post to do well. It's not enough to just have one thing, draw someone in because they might not even follow you from there. And they're just consistently scrolling and getting more and more content. So there's just this endless churn of content happening. And it's just, yeah, it's benefiting audiences and it's benefiting platforms, but it's not benefiting creators.  [00:37:18] Dan Runcie: The need to preserve is there, as you mentioned, and we talked a lot about some of the platforms that have made it challenging. Are there ready that stand out to you that you're like, okay, they are at least making an effort or do you feel like there's more opportunity there relative to some of the other platforms that exist? [00:37:35] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. I do think that YouTube could be an exception to the rule with this. I think that it's a really interesting company because when you think about it, they kind of were the original creator economy company and kind of are seemingly doubling down on that now. I think that it's great how there's sort of this network between YouTube shorts, YouTube music, YouTube, and that's sort of what I think is missing, but won't be for long from TikTok is that you have to switch to a different platform to listen to the music, which is why if ByteDance, you know, release Resso worldwide or make this TikTok music app, it might become crazy powerful, but, yeah, I think YouTube does have this focus on channels and following people. And I think a lot of creators have been able to build sustainable incomes there. But I do worry that the impact of all these other platforms kind of teaching people not to follow and not to follow individuals and channels is going to have an impact, but I think YouTube has a lot of potential.  [00:38:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think so, too. It definitely is the platform, bad thing has the most ability to offer this just given the full complexity of whether or not you're an artist, you're someone that's creating any type of thing that has video, you're probably going to be on there. I also do think about platforms like SoundCloud, Audiomack, and Tidal as well because... [00:38:55] Tatiana Cirisano: A hundred percent. [00:38:56] Dan Runcie: ... even though they may not necessarily fit into the same buckets as some of the others we mentioned, I do think that the things they've tried to do, whether it's with SoundCloud's fan-powered royalties or with Tidal's user-centric base model, which is similar, or even what Audiomack has done with its supporters program, allowing people to say, Hey, this is the person that I want to give my money to. If there's extra money at the end of the year, this is the person I want to have a badge on and want to be able to share that with the profile, they keep the connection there. They're willing to share who are particular artists' followers and fans are, which is something that most of the other DSPs don't allow to happen. So I do think that they are more unique opportunities. And also, I would say tracing back to the last thing we talked about, a place where a lot of artists, if they are trying to build up a fan base on a particular platform could be an interesting angle to prove, because I do think there is a certain type of fan and artist that thrives on each of those platforms individually, just given the brand there, everything else. So those are the ones that I keep an eye out for, the same way that we saw NBA YoungBoy and others rise up. SoundCloud, of course, had its SoundCloud rap era and there's still artists coming out there. And of course, Tidal, I think, just given its origins will always have deep roots within hip-hop culture. So I'm always keeping an eye out for those. [00:40:18] Tatiana Cirisano: A hundred percent. No, I'm glad you brought up Audiomack and SoundCloud. Those are two companies that, I mean, we worked with SoundCloud on a user-centric royalties white paper that was really just eye-opening with all of this. And I do think that there are opportunities to, going back to what we were saying about being able to actually segment your fans on streaming and see who are your biggest supporters and not have everyone just equated into the same bucket. I think what Audiomack is doing is really smart because those support badges are also a way for people to express themselves. If you have that in your profile, you know, it says something about who you are. And I think there's a lot more opportunities to bring music and self-expression closer together 'cause I think that streaming has kind of pulled them apart a little bit by sort of equating everyone. So yeah, I think those are really good examples and really promising. [00:41:04] Dan Runcie: So there you have it. We solved it. I think in this conversation, we solved it all.  [00:41:10] Tatiana Cirisano: There we go. We can all go home. Class is dismissed.  [00:41:13] Dan Runcie: This is great. Tati, thanks for sharing your insights and some of the highlights of the research you've done on this space. Excited to see what you have coming up next, especially now that things are ramping back up for the industry. So for the folks listening, where can they stay tuned to keep up with the latest research that you have coming out?  [00:41:32] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. You can go to MIDiAResearch.com, where we have a blog that I write on often. Those posts are free. So even if you're not a client, you can read them. And I also wanted to mention that I'll be talking more about this exact topic at Stan Con in New York on October 5th, which is Denisha, who I think she had an episode with you recently, right, Dan. If you heard that episode, it's her conference, so I'll be there talking more about fandom and fragmentation. So looking forward to that and thank you so much for having me.  [00:41:59] Dan Runcie: Of course, great minds coming together. I'm glad you're going to that. That's awesome. Thank you. [00:42:03] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 22 Sep 2022 08:00:00 -0000 The Music Industry’s Oversaturation Problem full Dan Runcie It’s never been easier for artists to release music and find an audience in any corner of the world. Likewise, it’s never been more difficult for artists to break through the noise. The Internet and streaming services have created a double-edged sword for rising artists. To discuss this, Tatiano Cirisano joined me on the show. Tati is a music analyst at MIDiA Research and a former reporter at Billboard. Tati released a research piece a few weeks ago that argues the music industry is oversaturated and fragmented — more than ever before. This shift has created a new class system for artists. In Group 1 are artists that reached prominence pre-streaming in a less cluttered marketplace (e.g. Beyonce or AC/DC). Class 2 consists of artists who rose in parallel with the proliferation of streaming. Drake and Taylor Swift fall into this category. And then there’s the Class 3, that includes newer artists, who try to cultivate audiences in today’s hyper-competitive landscape against the other two groups.  Tati believes the trend line for the music industry’s fragmentation is clearly pointing up. To understand how we got here, why it matters, and how it redefines success, you’ll want to listen to our interview. Here’s our biggest talking points:  [3:11] Why consumption is now fragmented [8:41] Music superstars losing their reach [10:55] Modern artists valuing fame less than prior generations [13:24] Benefits to fragmentation [14:48] Updated benchmark for artist success [16:50] Active vs. passive listening [18:53] Music industry is still tied to album sales [25:34] Artists segmenting audiences by platform [30:18] Trap of taking users off native platforms [32:59] Content is becoming more important than the creator [37:35] YouTube and other potential outlier platforms for audience-building  You can read Tati’s full report here: https://midiaresearch.com/blog/music-is-not-a-level-playing-field-it-is-a-field-of-all-levels Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Tatiana Cirisano, @tatianacirisano     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Tatiana Cirisano: Fame is actually really low on the list of priorities of artists today. And whether that's because they don't really want it or because they just don't think it's achievable is kind of another layer to that, but the top two things are earning a sustainable income and achieving recognition within their scene. Artists' definitions of success are changing, but I don't know if the music industry is really catching onto that or really supporting that because the music business is a hits business and record labels are trying to create superstars and drive culture. [00:00:38] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:58] Dan Runcie: Today's conversation is all about why the stars of today cannot be compared to the stars of yesterday in the music industry. And when I'm talking about yesterday, I'm not talking about 20, 30 years ago. I'm talking about 3, 4 even 5 years ago. The era that Drake and even Post Malone and some of these other artists came up in cannot be compared to what's happening with the artist today and that's as it relates to streaming, as it relates to TikTok and all the ways that things are fragmented in the creator economy. And it was great to be joined by Tatiana Cirisano. She is a music industry analyst at MIDiA Research, where she has written some insightful pieces and breakdowns on this topic in a whole lot more. We talked about the impacts and the current landscape of the streaming era, and what it looks like for artists that are prioritizing their growth and perfecting what they can do on one platform as opposed to spreading it on others. We also talked about some of the trade-offs and some of the challenges for artists in the creator economy and a whole lot more. She does some great research on this topic. So definitely check out the work she does at MIDiA Research if you haven't yet, here's our conversation. Hope you enjoy it. All right, today, we are joined by music industry analyst, Tati Cirisano, who is going to help us solve all of the music industry problems today. Are you ready?  [00:02:22] Tatiana Cirisano: One can hope. I'll do my best.  [00:02:25] Dan Runcie: So what sparked this conversation was a really insightful piece that you had put out recently through MIDiA Research, and this was about the different levels of artists and where they are specifically in the streaming era. And you had this really good breakdown on how you had the artists that were already established in the streaming era such as your AC/DCs or your Beyoncés, they were established before streaming became a thing. You had the artists that were, folks like your Drakes or even your Taylor Swifts that rose while streaming was really huge. And then you have your artists today. Could you talk a little bit about how that differentiation between those groups impacts success and what achieving success looks like today? [00:03:11] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I'll kind of back up a little bit to what is underlying all of that, which is just the fragmentation of consumption. And that's something that we study a lot at MIDiA, and it basically means that you know, with people able to, through streaming, access all the music they could ever want to and listen at any time that they want to, and also with these increasingly sophisticated algorithms kind of pushing people to niches. It follows that there are kind of less mainstream moments or mainstream stars and more of these stars just for individuals and their communities or their niches. And I think that's something that we've all kind of experienced at some point, like, maybe there's an artist that you're obsessed with and all of your friend's love, and you mention it to a friend that is in another circle and they're like, who's that? I mean, I get that reaction. I've gotten that reaction talking about Bad Bunny before, and he is the top streamed artist in the world. So I think we've all had like this anecdotal experience of you thinking that something is mainstream, but it's not as mainstream as you think it is and that is the fragmentation at work. So this is happening on a really, really accelerated scale now. Just because of how everything is online and on demand and because of these algorithms. So we're in this situation where the artists that are competing today are in a much more oversaturated and fragmented landscape where it's a lot harder to have a mainstream impact than the artists that were even chasing success three years ago, five years ago, ten years ago. So the way that I had kind of broken it down, and I think you could actually break it down way further, which I think we're going to talk about is yeah, the artists that came up before all of this, pre-streaming, really, which are the AC/DCs, even a little bit of like the Beyoncés, and because they built their fan bases at a time before everything was so fragmented and cluttered, they're still, like, building on that today. They're still kind of riding that wave. And then you have the artists who came up kind of at the beginning of streaming and before all the second-order impacts happened. So basically streaming did democratize the playing field. It did make it so that way more artists could find their audiences. And there were all these benefits at the beginning, and artists like Drake, Taylor Swift, and Ed Sheeran really benefited from that. But now we're at a point where streaming has also contributed to this really oversaturated landscape, this really fragmented landscape. And it's only getting more and more so every year. And so the artists that are competing in that landscape now face really, really unique challenges, yet they're still competing in the same field as the Drakes, as the Beyoncés, as the AC/DCs. So because so much of this change has happened in just, like, 5 or 10 years, we're in a situation where the artists of today have very, very different challenges than, I think, even the artists of 2020, like the pace of fragmentation, is just insane. And I have data on that too, that I can share.  [00:06:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It would be great to dig more into that 'cause you've mentioned 2020. I look back on that year, especially, maybe the year leading into that, Billie Eilish was someone that was being talked about more and more, and she, of course, ended up sweeping the Grammys that year. But even when she came up, things are even more different now than back then, to your point.  [00:06:20] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. I really like the data that BPI pulls on this in there, I think it's called All About the Music. They have this annual report, and they look at, this is only in the UK, but they look at what percentage of total annual audio streams go towards the top 100 tracks? So, like, how much the hits are dominating basically? And that percentage has halved, more than halved, in the past 5 years. So you see that, like, we still have superstars, but their impact is just kind of lessening. And more, more consumption is going towards sort of like the mid-tier of artists, but it's spread across them. So it's just harder and harder to kind of have an impact. So, yeah, I think Billie Eilish is, it's funny, I feel like she's such a tough one because I try to use her as examples all the time, and I'm always like, but she is the exception to every rule because she is, like, such a talent. And, you know, I feel like it's hard to use her as an example in things, but I do think that she even came up in a much less cluttered space. I think that was like, more like 2017, 2018 pre-TikTok. And that's actually another division that I would make. Like yes, because of TikTok, the app itself, but also because of the fragmentation that it kind of has fostered and that other platforms are now following the footsteps of. [00:07:38] Dan Runcie: It's interesting because the BPI data is essentially telling us that a superstar has around half the reach that they maybe once did, or half of that footprint that they did. And it's one of those things where, of course, there's that cultural aspect of wanting to feel like something is big enough, so that, yeah, you're not asking your friends about Bad Bunny. And even though he's a global superstar, people still don't know who he is, but is this necessarily an issue as it relates to artists? Because a lot of it does reflect on the expectations that someone may have for their career, so I wonder has the industry itself adapted to the expectations, right? I think a lot of folks understand that no one is necessarily going to have that 1960s Beatlemania level of fame, or even 1980s, Michael Jackson level of fame. But do you feel like people have come around to the fact that no one is going to have 2015 Drake or 2014 Taylor Swift level of fame? Do you feel like that has sunk in yet?  [00:08:41] Tatiana Cirisano: That's a really good question. That's a really, really good question because so much of this is about, like, how we define success in the first place, right? So at MIDiA, we do these surveys of creators where one of the questions we ask every year is what is your definition of success? And we're finding that, while in the past, the music industry was very much associated with, like, fame and fortune, and like, that was kind of, like, what you're going after as an artist. Fame is actually really low on the list of priorities of artists today. It's the last thing. And whether that's because they don't really want it or because they just don't think it's achievable is kind of another layer to that that I'm not sure the answer to, but the top two things that they choose are earning a sustainable income and achieving recognition within their scene. And I think that's why so many artists are sort of enticed by the creator economy model because that's what you're doing, right? You're earning a sustainable living from, you know, your biggest fans or the people that are recognizing you within your scene. There are a lot of problematic things about the creator economy and maybe that's for another episode, but like, I think that what I'm trying to say is I think that artists' definitions of success are changing, but I don't know if the music industry is really catching onto that or really supporting that because the music business is a hits business and record labels are trying to create superstars and drive culture. And if the mainstream is almost nonexistent these days, like how do you do that? I do think that the sort of silver lining to it is that these sort of like more niche communities behind these, like, smaller stars are more engaged anyways. So it's like, do you want this, like, are you trying to go after this passive majority that, you know, maybe isn't ever going to be that engaged with your music, or would you rather go from a bottom-up approach and kind of find your audience, your niche, and builds from there. And I think that that can be really, really powerful, and we're kind of entering this age of like cult stars rather than superstars in that sense. I forget what you even. Ask me that launch beyond this rant.  [00:10:52] Dan Runcie: That was good though.  [00:10:54] Tatiana Cirisano: Those are my thoughts on success. [00:10:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like that was relevant though that, 'cause cult stars is a great way to capture this because I think shadowing back to the first thing that you said fab and fortune were so linked from the legacy of the music industry. And in many ways, they were linked that you couldn't really achieve one without the other. There was no one that was making 10 million a year from music as an artist that people really didn't know about to a certain level in terms of their take-home pay, not in terms of, you know, the money that they're generating, but today it's completely different. And of course, yeah, we mentioned how someone like Bad Bunny may be unknown to those outside of the circles. But I think we see this even more so because it's easier to achieve some of those fortunes without that same level of fame. I look at someone like Russ who, you know, he shares his TuneCore receipts and how, I forget whatever number he is pulling in, whether it's 6 figures a week or a month, or however much he's getting there, but he's clearly showing that he can pull in millions. And I mean, Russ, his music doesn't hit my circles, and if anything, the more news I hear about Russ is more related to his earnings and how he manages as an independent artist, not necessarily his music itself. And I think that speaks to me not necessarily being in that cult itself, right? But I still think that there is a space and opportunity for those artists that clearly want fame and fortune. You know, if you want to be able to perform in an arena and sell it out and gross, however many millions or, you know, doing the same thing in stadiums, you do have to likely follow a lot of the same traditional things from that path level, but still, even fame from that perspective doesn't hit the same way that it did. So it's a really fascinating time, and yeah, I think a lot of it does go back to both artists' expectations and the industry expectations, if the industry and the artists still have these dreams of thinking that artists can reach the levels of fame that artists did even 6, 7 years ago, then that's where people should probably be taking, 'cause I've had this conversation with so many people and they'll mention examples like, oh, well look at BTS. Oh, well look at Bad Bunny. Oh, well look at so and so, and I do think that there's something to be said for just the global aspect of the fame is just how music is reaching in different areas, and maybe that probably reflects that the people that are closest to that global superstar level, maybe just because of how saturated the US is, they're more likely to come from elsewhere, but who knows?  [00:13:24] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, no. And there's also, like, a lot of benefits to this fragmentation, right? Like I feel like I, the way I'm talking about this is very like doom and gloom. but it's also very beneficial to, like, the middle tier and long tail of artists that, you know, they're actually able to have audiences. The tricky thing though is that it's still so hard to break through. It's such a fascinating conversation to have because whenever we present this data on fragmentation and our thinking around it, the question from labels is always like, okay, but how do we drive culture? How do we create those moments? How do we make something mainstream? And I think there's an opportunity to kind of, like, labels are really top heavy, right? They're focusing on like the top three artists in their roster, making them superstars, and I feel like there's maybe an opportunity to spread resources more evenly across the middle and create those kind of cult stars that we were just talking about. So I think it is about changing your definition of success. I just don't know, you know, if the music industry wants to. But they might have to, I don't know.  [00:14:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because to your point, it could be potentially even more profitable to reflect the current playing field and invest in the people that have these niches, and knowing that even though it's not going to reach everyone if this person is reaching their tribe of people, then they can double down on that. And it could probably end up being even more successful, you investing all your resources to sell you know, three artists on your roster telling that they can be the next Drake. [00:14:48] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, no, and talking about this is reminding me too of I think we both wrote about the Gunna and The Weeknd album release week, like, whenever that was, time is flying. I think that was like earlier in the year. And how, even though the weekend is like objectively a household name, a bigger star, Gunna had this more engaged niche fan base that, you know, latched onto this P phenomenon and it ended up vaulting him maybe into the mainstream. 'cause the album debuted at number one. So it's like, which of those scenarios is success? You know, like the P phenomenon that happened, so many people didn't even know that that was going on. It totally bypassed, like, the majority of the population, right? But for the target audience, it felt mainstream. And I think that that's like, what's so different about this current moment is that something can feel mainstream to that circle, but totally bypass the rest of the population.  [00:15:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And there are so many factors at play in that that gets into this broader question that I've been thinking a lot about in terms of what does the closest thing we have to a benchmark for success look like, right? Because someone could easily look at that weekend that The Weeknd releases Dawn FM, and Gunna releases his album and Gunna outsells him, and then someone can think, oh, well, look at Gunna, you know, already selling more than the guy that performed at the Super Bowl. But if you look at it another way, The Weeknd is selling out stadiums right now and one of a handful of artists that can do that. And I love Gunna, I think he's had a great rise in everything, but he's nowhere near being able to sell out that much, at least in terms of where he is in his career right now. He could get there someday, but he's not there right now. So I feel like even that makes me wonder, okay, is streaming itself as a predictor for concert tickets or other things becoming harder to inform what it is really reflecting, or is that just its own individual metric that we are looking at?  [00:16:50] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, I think it is becoming harder to use stream counts as a metric for fandom and for culture because I think those things are building off of streaming platforms. Like, fandom is building on, you know, TikTok or Twitch or wherever, whereas streaming is a lot more of a passive activity. So that's another thing is like, I feel like we need new metrics and one of them is, like, active versus passive listening, which is something that's kind of hard to track. How do you do that as a streaming platform? So yeah, I think streams don't always equal fans and that's becoming more and more true. It's just, it's a lot harder to discern.  [00:17:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And that goes back into this broader question of the Billboard 200 and how it's trying to both combine streams, and pure album sales, and all these things to get to these numbers that we have. And it's becoming tougher and tougher to use that as a metric of what success is. If anything, these things are more reflecting, marketing budgets than they are popularity of the actual underlying music. And although the marketing was always tied with it, this is another thing that's separating further and further. And it reminds me of something that I know that MIDiA has talked about often in terms of measuring the success for these superstars when they do release albums. Remember Mark had that breakdown about Adele and how it should be, how her album for 30, we can't even compare what she had done when 25 came out in 2015, different era. She did pure CD sales and you could do that in 2015. You can't do that now. Although I think that vinyls have brought back an interesting conversation with some of this, but still it's difficult to do that, and it's making me think again because you had something similar when we looked at Beyoncé and I don't think you can necessarily compare Renaissance's numbers to Lemonade or the self-titled album before that. And we're going to have this conversation again when Taylor Swift's Midnight album comes out in a couple of months. [00:18:53] Tatiana Cirisano: No, it's so true. And I actually, I had that exact conversation with someone recently about, you know, the Billboard 200 and the Hot 100 and how it's not necessarily measuring, there's a lot of places that get left out from that count in terms of how people are consuming music. Like, I think so much of listening is happening and the fandom around it is happening off platform these days or off DSPs. It's happening like on TikTok and all these other spaces, in games, you know, wherever. And I don't know if we're accurately measuring that. I also don't think that, like I said, we're measuring so much, you know, active versus passive listening and these sort of segments of fans on streaming. Like, streaming kind of equates everyone as the same consumer, right, whether you're a super fan or whether you just press play on a playlist and sit back, you're still paying the same. You're still kind of equated as the same thing. So the question is how should we measure success today? Or how should we measure cultural impact? It's so hard 'cause I think in a lot of ways it goes beyond music. Like, if you're an artist who has really had a cultural impact, that impact is transcending music anyway, and that's kind of what it means to be like an icon or to be a cultural icon in that way. So I don't know. It's really tough not to crack. Like, a lot of these things are qualitative, right? Like, how do you measure the cultural impact that something has? And I don't think that it necessarily parallels commercial success. Like, you can have something that had a huge cultural impact on a certain group but didn't really hit the charts or change the way that people think about making music but didn't really hit consumers the same way. So now I'm just ranting and rambling. [00:20:34] Dan Runcie: Let's explore this a bit though.  [00:20:36] Tatiana Cirisano: It's tough.  [00:20:37] Dan Runcie: Let's explore a bit though because you brought up this point about active versus passive listening. So if I'm understanding you correctly, even if we started there, active listening is Gunna's album's coming out, I'm a Gunna fan, it's midnight. I want to press play and hear this album on Friday morning.  [00:20:55] Tatiana Cirisano: That would be a great metric to know is, right, and I guess we have first-day streams as kind of an indicator.  [00:21:01] Dan Runcie: But I guess you're saying, that's different from passive listening, which may be it's Friday. I just want to put RapCaviar on and then boom, RapCaviar has eight tracks that are going to be in the first 20 tracks that I just play as I'm going to work or something. [00:21:17] Tatiana Cirisano: Right. Exactly. And I think that's where it's more and more difficult to know, and it would be really helpful information for artists to have as well because if you're going to go this route that we've been talking about of, you know, finding your niche and finding your biggest fans and sort of going from a bottom-up approach in this fragmented environment, trying to become a cult star, you need to know who your most active listeners are, and I think that's really hard for artists to know today.  [00:21:43] Dan Runcie: I think part of the other challenge, too, with any type of metric is that the music industry itself is still tied to album sales. So anything that can translate back to that will always be there. So even if streams are how majority of music consumption is happening, as it relates to chart performance, it's always going to be challenging from that perspective because I feel like the resurgence of vinyl brings back an opportunity to push these things. I look at how well Harry Styles' album had performed, but a majority of the sales from that album was because of the vinyl that he had that was sold with it. But given all the shortages, how much of Harry Styles' performance is based on the pure demand that he had, which I know, obviously, he sold them. But because of how high his number is relative to, let's say some other artists that are signed to Sony and Columbia, what if they had the same type of inventory? I think that I had similar questions thinking about whether it was a Beyoncé or even a Kendrick Lamar. If they had the amount of vinyl inventory that he had, would it be a completely different discussion? I feel like the two of them maybe had around 300,000 or so first-week album sales, Harry Styles was over half a million. But if we were to still give them all the same inventory on that perspective, what that would look like? So there's all these ways that when you look at the data, it's telling you completely different things, but people are still just responding to the top line revenue number, and it brings us back into this whole thing that we just talked about with Gunna versus The Weeknd where it's like, okay. Yep, these numbers may tell you something, but when you really dig in, it's something completely different. So it becomes a mess to try to quantify.  [00:23:37] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, exactly. You hit the nail on the head. [00:23:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because the comparison I've always had as a joke is like let's say that the music industry was still stuck on trying to measure everything by DVD and VHS sales, right? So they had some amalgamation of some calculation that had whatever percentage of streams that you had on Netflix that was weighted with this, plus how many VHS sales you had, plus how many DVD sales, and this gives you a DVD equivalent unit. If you presented that metric to someone, someone would be like, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life.  [00:24:13] Tatiana Cirisano: Right, right.  [00:24:13] Dan Runcie: They would laugh at you out of the door, but that's what we've normalized in the music at this time. [00:24:19] Tatiana Cirisano: That's what we're doing. Isn't that just a metaphor for so much? Yeah, it's true. I also think it goes back to exactly what you're saying about, maybe these charts are more indicating the marketing budget and you know, how they decided about bundles or we're going to sell vinyl or whatever we're going to do to try to make it to the top of the charts. And I wonder what these charts would look like weighted differently, or we are talking about fragmentation. It's so fascinating to look at, you know, the charts across different platforms and see that they're totally different. So I do wonder a lot, like what are we actually measuring when we're looking at, you know, the Hot 100 or the Billboard 200. [00:24:57] Dan Runcie: Great question and great segue, too, 'cause I wanted to chat with you about this, how you look at a lot of these platform charts, especially the non-digital streaming providers and the artists who are on the top look completely different. You even see this a little bit with some of the DSPs as well, where some of the artists on top of your Amazon and Apple music may look a little different from what you see on Spotify. What's your take on that overall and do you think that artists themselves should be keeping this in mind when they are focusing or when they are thinking about how best to build an audience?  [00:25:34] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, no. I mean, I think that it's just another really apparent reflection of the fragmentation that's happening. And I think it does make sense knowing all this as an artist to rather than try and dominate every platform, which is next to impossible, trying to kind of find where you fit in and dominate there. And that is sort of like that bottom-up approach, but from a platform perspective, and also might, like, reduce the feeling from artists that they need to be, you know, popular everywhere and they need to be churning out content on every platform and all that. I think the risk though, is that, especially when we're talking about non-DSP, there's artists that maybe have the most followers on TikTok, but they're not being followed for their music. They're being followed 'cause they make funny videos or their song has the most uses because it's become a joke that people are sharing around and not as many people are streaming it offline. So I think it is a good idea as an artist to maybe figure out what platform fits you best, but you also need to understand, like, the particular sort of idiosyncrasies of each of those platforms. I also think, I think you've written about this a lot like segmenting your audience across platforms as a strategy. And I think that's another way that you can kind of use this information as an artist if you know that you have an audience on one platform that is looking for this specific thing and another, that's looking for another, why not, you know, release your full album on Spotify, but you know, the deluxe edition only on Patreon for your biggest supporters or something like that. Or even, there's this indie artist mxmtoon, who I think is a really interesting example of like a modern-day sort of artist slash creator where she has a presence on pretty much every platform. YouTube, she has a podcast, she's on TikTok, she has like a Discord, I think. But every single one of those is used for something totally different. And she has audiences that kind of funnel through all of them. But YouTube is where she does ukulele tutorials and, like, TikTok is where she does Q and As, and the Discord is where the true fans go to congregate. And that's also a path that may be unsustainable for a lot of artists, and I don't like, I'm not trying to suggest that everyone should be on every platform, you know, there are eight octopus arms, like doing all the things. I think that's one of the, like, things that's problematic about the creator economy, but, but yeah, I do think that it's really valuable for artists to understand this fragmentation and how it plays out on different platforms because I do think there are ways to navigate that and kind of use it to your advantage.  [00:28:07] Dan Runcie: There's definitely a benefit to focus here. And this, as you mentioned, spans beyond artists. It does look at everyone that is a creator. And maybe just for clarity for the folks listening, when we're talking about DSPs, we're specifically talking about the ones that a lot of people are paying monthly subscriptions to, so your Spotify, Amazon, Apple music. When we're talking about non- DSPs, we're talking about the place where you could still hear music and artists can still build platforms, but they're not in the same type of way as the other. So we're talking about TikTok, we're also talking about YouTube and maybe some of the other platforms there, although YouTube does have some hybrid tendencies there, but to level set that piece of it. I do think that focus helps a lot because I look at someone like an NBA YoungBoy and how he's been able to just blow up and dominate on YouTube. That takes time of really understanding the algorithm, understanding what works here, and just given how big the platform is that did help him grow and have traction on Apple music, on Spotify, and on other places. So I've heard a lot of people refer to this 80-20 rule. That's a lot of content creators, which I think could be helpful for artists as well, where if there was a platform that you're focusing 80% of your time to try to focus on and just understand, especially if there's an advantage there where others that are in your niche, maybe aren't necessarily doing as much. And then you're still having your feet in the others to just understand what those opportunities could look like. I feel like that type of approach could work well because that's how you get to the levels of, you mentioned the independent artists who essentially tailored so much of the content for each area. And while there's a lot that benefits there, obviously, it isn't completely scalable, but I feel like that's how you get to these things. And we've seen other examples of how people have just focused on a particular platform or just doubled down the risk of that. Of course, when we can talk about this in a minute, is that you do relinquish a lot of your power to any decision that that platform does make, especially if you're relying on so much of it for your business when you necessarily own anything underneath that. So there's definitely trade-offs, but there's benefits too.  [00:30:18] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, no, that's a huge issue there. Which we'll get, yeah, we'll get into more of that, that stuff in a minute, but this approach of like focusing on a platform also means that you're seeing these non- DSP platforms as a form of consumption in their own right, rather than just using them as a funnel to streaming, which I think is like a trap that the music industry has kind of fallen into is, oh, make something go viral on TikTok and then push everybody to Spotify. And it's like, if the fandom and the culture and a lot of consumption is happening on TikTok, you're leaving that on the table when you're pushing people to Spotify. And you know, I think that there's a lot to be gleaned there, and we should start thinking about these platforms as their own consumption platforms in their own right. [00:30:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah. As a content creator myself, I've heard a lot of people use that analogy of give, give, give, give, give, and then ask. So it's not like you're just going there and asking and trying to transport folks over. You're still making some enough effort to make sure that you're connecting authentically with the folks on the platform, but you still know that when there was time for an ask, you're thoughtful about how you're doing, and you're not doing it all the time because trying to take people off the platform, especially TikTok, which has grown in so many ways because of passive engagement, it's even harder.  [00:31:31] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, yeah, no, I think this is something that you wanted to get into anyway, but just, like, the objectives of the platform and the creator are totally different because the platform has the best-case scenario when there is all this passive viewing and people are just scrolling endlessly and they're spending a lot of time on the platform, but that's not the best case scenario for the creator. So the audience and the platform get all the benefit. And the creator kind of falls to the wayside. And I think that's a big issue that we're seeing in the creator economy.  [00:31:57] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And this is a big issue that I know that people have had about Web 2.0 more broadly and just how this can be improved. The challenge I've seen though is that any type of platform I've seen that does try to be more creator-focused and doesn't try to do the same things that marginalize the content that the creators make, a lot of those platforms struggle to gain traction, or they're only used in these niche type of ways. So it creates a bit of this double-edged sword where the creators themselves feel like, well, if I focus on the platforms that are solely built to cater to me and prioritize me over the content, then it's going to be hard to get the users there because it isn't designed in a way to keep the users engaged, just thinking about the extent that the more popular platforms do and more popular platforms are the ones that prioritize the content over the creators. So it's one of these unfortunate situations that has continued on and on, and that's why we're at the point we are now. [00:32:59] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, I think that we do see that happen more often than not. And before we even got to this point where content is becoming more important that the creator, which I could talk about in a minute the objectives are just totally, like I said, misaligned, like the platforms need scale. They need to monetize. All of the combined audiences of these individual creators. But the creators are looking more so for fan bases and engaged followers than they are looking for, you know, these passive audiences. So it actually, I think a lot of the struggles that creators are having with these platforms sort of echo issues that artists have had with streaming platforms in really interesting ways. Because it's similar to how like rights holders, like labels are monetizing scale of being able to own all of the songs and therefore all of the audiences of dozens, if not hundreds of artists, but those artists individually will never have enough scale to earn a meaningful income from streaming. And I think the same sort of thing is playing out with creators now where the platform is getting all the benefit because they get the combination of all these audiences and it's best for them. If people are just mindlessly scrolling, whereas creators have just totally different objectives and a different way of earning money. And then the current algorithm, or like the one that everyone's trying to kind of copy, which is TikTok, is making matters worse because there's no need to even actually follow anyone or, you know, really engage that much with the platform because you're going to be served content that is tailor-made for you regardless. So we're kind of teaching people with that kind of discovery-focused feed, not to actually follow individuals and more to just expect this constant flow of content. And again, going back to the parallels with streaming, it's interesting how we went from a few years ago, talking about TikTok as this amazing democratizing force to now talking about how well, yeah, it's democratized 'cause everybody can post anything, but it's impossible for anyone to get heard. We've gone through the same trajectory with streaming where, 5 years ago, we were all saying, oh, my God, streaming is great. It's democratized the industry. And in many ways it has, but now we're seeing all these second-order impacts where it's really, really hard for anyone to break through the noise, and it's really, really hard for anyone to earn meaningful income, so, yeah.  [00:35:14] Dan Runcie: The pattern is clear. You laid it out perfectly.  [00:35:17] Tatiana Cirisano: It's crazy.  [00:35:17] Dan Runcie: And one thing about TikTok, everyone talks about how quick it is to grow a following, how favorable the algorithm is when you start off, and all those things are intentional. It is the easiest platform to be able to gain tens of thousands of followers and even more, but it's the hardest to be able to translate those followers into actual fans because it's more likely that they are going to be passive folks that are engaging versus active ones. And we're going to see more and more of that, especially given to goals to try to expand into so many other places, and then additionally, every other app trying to copy what TikTok is doing, because they see that being the norm. And now that that's what they see as the standard operating procedure for how to keep people's attention and engagement, everyone is trying to have their own version of that. [00:36:09] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, you know, and I think that people do have an appetite for, like, wanting to follow individuals. I mean, that's what everything has been based on up until now. And people were annoyed when Meta changed its algorithm and said, it's all going to be discovery-focused now because you go to Instagram to see updates from your friends and people that you follow, not to just get this feed of things that you've people you've never heard of. So I think that there is still, like, an appetite for that. And there's sort of a chance to recalibrate and allow more ways to actually follow creators and not just make it all about each individual piece of content. But I think that we're kind of in a critical window right now to preserve that. And I don't know if we're talking about this enough. Yeah, it's just the situation, like to kind of bring it back to artists is really difficult because you need every individual thing that you post to do well. It's not enough to just have one thing, draw someone in because they might not even follow you from there. And they're just consistently scrolling and getting more and more content. So there's just this endless churn of content happening. And it's just, yeah, it's benefiting audiences and it's benefiting platforms, but it's not benefiting creators.  [00:37:18] Dan Runcie: The need to preserve is there, as you mentioned, and we talked a lot about some of the platforms that have made it challenging. Are there ready that stand out to you that you're like, okay, they are at least making an effort or do you feel like there's more opportunity there relative to some of the other platforms that exist? [00:37:35] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. I do think that YouTube could be an exception to the rule with this. I think that it's a really interesting company because when you think about it, they kind of were the original creator economy company and kind of are seemingly doubling down on that now. I think that it's great how there's sort of this network between YouTube shorts, YouTube music, YouTube, and that's sort of what I think is missing, but won't be for long from TikTok is that you have to switch to a different platform to listen to the music, which is why if ByteDance, you know, release Resso worldwide or make this TikTok music app, it might become crazy powerful, but, yeah, I think YouTube does have this focus on channels and following people. And I think a lot of creators have been able to build sustainable incomes there. But I do worry that the impact of all these other platforms kind of teaching people not to follow and not to follow individuals and channels is going to have an impact, but I think YouTube has a lot of potential.  [00:38:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think so, too. It definitely is the platform, bad thing has the most ability to offer this just given the full complexity of whether or not you're an artist, you're someone that's creating any type of thing that has video, you're probably going to be on there. I also do think about platforms like SoundCloud, Audiomack, and Tidal as well because... [00:38:55] Tatiana Cirisano: A hundred percent. [00:38:56] Dan Runcie: ... even though they may not necessarily fit into the same buckets as some of the others we mentioned, I do think that the things they've tried to do, whether it's with SoundCloud's fan-powered royalties or with Tidal's user-centric base model, which is similar, or even what Audiomack has done with its supporters program, allowing people to say, Hey, this is the person that I want to give my money to. If there's extra money at the end of the year, this is the person I want to have a badge on and want to be able to share that with the profile, they keep the connection there. They're willing to share who are particular artists' followers and fans are, which is something that most of the other DSPs don't allow to happen. So I do think that they are more unique opportunities. And also, I would say tracing back to the last thing we talked about, a place where a lot of artists, if they are trying to build up a fan base on a particular platform could be an interesting angle to prove, because I do think there is a certain type of fan and artist that thrives on each of those platforms individually, just given the brand there, everything else. So those are the ones that I keep an eye out for, the same way that we saw NBA YoungBoy and others rise up. SoundCloud, of course, had its SoundCloud rap era and there's still artists coming out there. And of course, Tidal, I think, just given its origins will always have deep roots within hip-hop culture. So I'm always keeping an eye out for those. [00:40:18] Tatiana Cirisano: A hundred percent. No, I'm glad you brought up Audiomack and SoundCloud. Those are two companies that, I mean, we worked with SoundCloud on a user-centric royalties white paper that was really just eye-opening with all of this. And I do think that there are opportunities to, going back to what we were saying about being able to actually segment your fans on streaming and see who are your biggest supporters and not have everyone just equated into the same bucket. I think what Audiomack is doing is really smart because those support badges are also a way for people to express themselves. If you have that in your profile, you know, it says something about who you are. And I think there's a lot more opportunities to bring music and self-expression closer together 'cause I think that streaming has kind of pulled them apart a little bit by sort of equating everyone. So yeah, I think those are really good examples and really promising. [00:41:04] Dan Runcie: So there you have it. We solved it. I think in this conversation, we solved it all.  [00:41:10] Tatiana Cirisano: There we go. We can all go home. Class is dismissed.  [00:41:13] Dan Runcie: This is great. Tati, thanks for sharing your insights and some of the highlights of the research you've done on this space. Excited to see what you have coming up next, especially now that things are ramping back up for the industry. So for the folks listening, where can they stay tuned to keep up with the latest research that you have coming out?  [00:41:32] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. You can go to MIDiAResearch.com, where we have a blog that I write on often. Those posts are free. So even if you're not a client, you can read them. And I also wanted to mention that I'll be talking more about this exact topic at Stan Con in New York on October 5th, which is Denisha, who I think she had an episode with you recently, right, Dan. If you heard that episode, it's her conference, so I'll be there talking more about fandom and fragmentation. So looking forward to that and thank you so much for having me.  [00:41:59] Dan Runcie: Of course, great minds coming together. I'm glad you're going to that. That's awesome. Thank you. [00:42:03] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. It’s never been easier for artists to release music and find an audience in any corner of the world. Likewise, it’s never been more difficult for artists to break through the noise. The Internet and streaming services have created a double-edged sword for rising artists. To discuss this, Tatiano Cirisano joined me on the show. Tati is a music analyst at MIDiA Research and a former reporter at Billboard.


Tati released a research piece a few weeks ago that argues the music industry is oversaturated and fragmented — more than ever before. This shift has created a new class system for artists.


In Group 1 are artists that reached prominence pre-streaming in a less cluttered marketplace (e.g. Beyonce or AC/DC). Class 2 consists of artists who rose in parallel with the proliferation of streaming. Drake and Taylor Swift fall into this category. And then there’s the Class 3, that includes newer artists, who try to cultivate audiences in today’s hyper-competitive landscape against the other two groups. 


Tati believes the trend line for the music industry’s fragmentation is clearly pointing up. To understand how we got here, why it matters, and how it redefines success, you’ll want to listen to our interview. Here’s our biggest talking points: 


[3:11] Why consumption is now fragmented

[8:41] Music superstars losing their reach

[10:55] Modern artists valuing fame less than prior generations

[13:24] Benefits to fragmentation

[14:48] Updated benchmark for artist success

[16:50] Active vs. passive listening

[18:53] Music industry is still tied to album sales

[25:34] Artists segmenting audiences by platform

[30:18] Trap of taking users off native platforms

[32:59] Content is becoming more important than the creator

[37:35] YouTube and other potential outlier platforms for audience-building 


You can read Tati’s full report here: https://midiaresearch.com/blog/music-is-not-a-level-playing-field-it-is-a-field-of-all-levels




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Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Tatiana Cirisano, @tatianacirisano

 

 

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TRANSCRIPTION


[00:00:00] Tatiana Cirisano: Fame is actually really low on the list of priorities of artists today. And whether that's because they don't really want it or because they just don't think it's achievable is kind of another layer to that, but the top two things are earning a sustainable income and achieving recognition within their scene. Artists' definitions of success are changing, but I don't know if the music industry is really catching onto that or really supporting that because the music business is a hits business and record labels are trying to create superstars and drive culture.

[00:00:38] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 

[00:00:58] Dan Runcie: Today's conversation is all about why the stars of today cannot be compared to the stars of yesterday in the music industry. And when I'm talking about yesterday, I'm not talking about 20, 30 years ago. I'm talking about 3, 4 even 5 years ago. The era that Drake and even Post Malone and some of these other artists came up in cannot be compared to what's happening with the artist today and that's as it relates to streaming, as it relates to TikTok and all the ways that things are fragmented in the creator economy. And it was great to be joined by Tatiana Cirisano. She is a music industry analyst at MIDiA Research, where she has written some insightful pieces and breakdowns on this topic in a whole lot more. We talked about the impacts and the current landscape of the streaming era, and what it looks like for artists that are prioritizing their growth and perfecting what they can do on one platform as opposed to spreading it on others. We also talked about some of the trade-offs and some of the challenges for artists in the creator economy and a whole lot more. She does some great research on this topic. So definitely check out the work she does at MIDiA Research if you haven't yet, here's our conversation. Hope you enjoy it. All right, today, we are joined by music industry analyst, Tati Cirisano, who is going to help us solve all of the music industry problems today. Are you ready? 

[00:02:22] Tatiana Cirisano: One can hope. I'll do my best. 

[00:02:25] Dan Runcie: So what sparked this conversation was a really insightful piece that you had put out recently through MIDiA Research, and this was about the different levels of artists and where they are specifically in the streaming era. And you had this really good breakdown on how you had the artists that were already established in the streaming era such as your AC/DCs or your Beyoncés, they were established before streaming became a thing. You had the artists that were, folks like your Drakes or even your Taylor Swifts that rose while streaming was really huge. And then you have your artists today. Could you talk a little bit about how that differentiation between those groups impacts success and what achieving success looks like today?

[00:03:11] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I'll kind of back up a little bit to what is underlying all of that, which is just the fragmentation of consumption. And that's something that we study a lot at MIDiA, and it basically means that you know, with people able to, through streaming, access all the music they could ever want to and listen at any time that they want to, and also with these increasingly sophisticated algorithms kind of pushing people to niches. It follows that there are kind of less mainstream moments or mainstream stars and more of these stars just for individuals and their communities or their niches. And I think that's something that we've all kind of experienced at some point, like, maybe there's an artist that you're obsessed with and all of your friend's love, and you mention it to a friend that is in another circle and they're like, who's that? I mean, I get that reaction. I've gotten that reaction talking about Bad Bunny before, and he is the top streamed artist in the world. So I think we've all had like this anecdotal experience of you thinking that something is mainstream, but it's not as mainstream as you think it is and that is the fragmentation at work. So this is happening on a really, really accelerated scale now. Just because of how everything is online and on demand and because of these algorithms. So we're in this situation where the artists that are competing today are in a much more oversaturated and fragmented landscape where it's a lot harder to have a mainstream impact than the artists that were even chasing success three years ago, five years ago, ten years ago. So the way that I had kind of broken it down, and I think you could actually break it down way further, which I think we're going to talk about is yeah, the artists that came up before all of this, pre-streaming, really, which are the AC/DCs, even a little bit of like the Beyoncés, and because they built their fan bases at a time before everything was so fragmented and cluttered, they're still, like, building on that today. They're still kind of riding that wave. And then you have the artists who came up kind of at the beginning of streaming and before all the second-order impacts happened. So basically streaming did democratize the playing field. It did make it so that way more artists could find their audiences. And there were all these benefits at the beginning, and artists like Drake, Taylor Swift, and Ed Sheeran really benefited from that. But now we're at a point where streaming has also contributed to this really oversaturated landscape, this really fragmented landscape. And it's only getting more and more so every year. And so the artists that are competing in that landscape now face really, really unique challenges, yet they're still competing in the same field as the Drakes, as the Beyoncés, as the AC/DCs. So because so much of this change has happened in just, like, 5 or 10 years, we're in a situation where the artists of today have very, very different challenges than, I think, even the artists of 2020, like the pace of fragmentation, is just insane. And I have data on that too, that I can share. 


[00:06:00]

Dan Runcie: Yeah. It would be great to dig more into that 'cause you've mentioned 2020. I look back on that year, especially, maybe the year leading into that, Billie Eilish was someone that was being talked about more and more, and she, of course, ended up sweeping the Grammys that year. But even when she came up, things are even more different now than back then, to your point. 

[00:06:20] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. I really like the data that BPI pulls on this in there, I think it's called All About the Music. They have this annual report, and they look at, this is only in the UK, but they look at what percentage of total annual audio streams go towards the top 100 tracks? So, like, how much the hits are dominating basically? And that percentage has halved, more than halved, in the past 5 years. So you see that, like, we still have superstars, but their impact is just kind of lessening. And more, more consumption is going towards sort of like the mid-tier of artists, but it's spread across them. So it's just harder and harder to kind of have an impact. So, yeah, I think Billie Eilish is, it's funny, I feel like she's such a tough one because I try to use her as examples all the time, and I'm always like, but she is the exception to every rule because she is, like, such a talent. And, you know, I feel like it's hard to use her as an example in things, but I do think that she even came up in a much less cluttered space. I think that was like, more like 2017, 2018 pre-TikTok. And that's actually another division that I would make. Like yes, because of TikTok, the app itself, but also because of the fragmentation that it kind of has fostered and that other platforms are now following the footsteps of.

[00:07:38] Dan Runcie: It's interesting because the BPI data is essentially telling us that a superstar has around half the reach that they maybe once did, or half of that footprint that they did. And it's one of those things where, of course, there's that cultural aspect of wanting to feel like something is big enough, so that, yeah, you're not asking your friends about Bad Bunny. And even though he's a global superstar, people still don't know who he is, but is this necessarily an issue as it relates to artists? Because a lot of it does reflect on the expectations that someone may have for their career, so I wonder has the industry itself adapted to the expectations, right? I think a lot of folks understand that no one is necessarily going to have that 1960s Beatlemania level of fame, or even 1980s, Michael Jackson level of fame. But do you feel like people have come around to the fact that no one is going to have 2015 Drake or 2014 Taylor Swift level of fame? Do you feel like that has sunk in yet? 

[00:08:41] Tatiana Cirisano: That's a really good question. That's a really, really good question because so much of this is about, like, how we define success in the first place, right? So at MIDiA, we do these surveys of creators where one of the questions we ask every year is what is your definition of success? And we're finding that, while in the past, the music industry was very much associated with, like, fame and fortune, and like, that was kind of, like, what you're going after as an artist. Fame is actually really low on the list of priorities of artists today. It's the last thing. And whether that's because they don't really want it or because they just don't think it's achievable is kind of another layer to that that I'm not sure the answer to, but the top two things that they choose are earning a sustainable income and achieving recognition within their scene. And I think that's why so many artists are sort of enticed by the creator economy model because that's what you're doing, right? You're earning a sustainable living from, you know, your biggest fans or the people that are recognizing you within your scene. There are a lot of problematic things about the creator economy and maybe that's for another episode, but like, I think that what I'm trying to say is I think that artists' definitions of success are changing, but I don't know if the music industry is really catching onto that or really supporting that because the music business is a hits business and record labels are trying to create superstars and drive culture. And if the mainstream is almost nonexistent these days, like how do you do that? I do think that the sort of silver lining to it is that these sort of like more niche communities behind these, like, smaller stars are more engaged anyways. So it's like, do you want this, like, are you trying to go after this passive majority that, you know, maybe isn't ever going to be that engaged with your music, or would you rather go from a bottom-up approach and kind of find your audience, your niche, and builds from there. And I think that that can be really, really powerful, and we're kind of entering this age of like cult stars rather than superstars in that sense. I forget what you even. Ask me that launch beyond this rant. 

[00:10:52] Dan Runcie: That was good though. 

[00:10:54] Tatiana Cirisano: Those are my thoughts on success.

[00:10:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like that was relevant though that, 'cause cult stars is a great way to capture this because I think shadowing back to the first thing that you said fab and fortune were so linked from the legacy of the music industry. And in many ways, they were linked that you couldn't really achieve one without the other. There was no one that was making 10 million a year from music as an artist that people really didn't know about to a certain level in terms of their take-home pay, not in terms of, you know, the money that they're generating, but today it's completely different. And of course, yeah, we mentioned how someone like Bad Bunny may be unknown to those outside of the circles. But I think we see this even more so because it's easier to achieve some of those fortunes without that same level of fame. I look at someone like Russ who, you know, he shares his TuneCore receipts and how, I forget whatever number he is pulling in, whether it's 6 figures a week or a month, or however much he's getting there, but he's clearly showing that he can pull in millions. And I mean, Russ, his music doesn't hit my circles, and if anything, the more news I hear about Russ is more related to his earnings and how he manages as an independent artist, not necessarily his music itself. And I think that speaks to me not necessarily being in that cult itself, right? But I still think that there is a space and opportunity for those artists that clearly want fame and fortune. You know, if you want to be able to perform in an arena and sell it out and gross, however many millions or, you know, doing the same thing in stadiums, you do have to likely follow a lot of the same traditional things from that path level, but still, even fame from that perspective doesn't hit the same way that it did. So it's a really fascinating time, and yeah, I think a lot of it does go back to both artists' expectations and the industry expectations, if the industry and the artists still have these dreams of thinking that artists can reach the levels of fame that artists did even 6, 7 years ago, then that's where people should probably be taking, 'cause I've had this conversation with so many people and they'll mention examples like, oh, well look at BTS. Oh, well look at Bad Bunny. Oh, well look at so and so, and I do think that there's something to be said for just the global aspect of the fame is just how music is reaching in different areas, and maybe that probably reflects that the people that are closest to that global superstar level, maybe just because of how saturated the US is, they're more likely to come from elsewhere, but who knows? 

[00:13:24] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, no. And there's also, like, a lot of benefits to this fragmentation, right? Like I feel like I, the way I'm talking about this is very like doom and gloom. but it's also very beneficial to, like, the middle tier and long tail of artists that, you know, they're actually able to have audiences. The tricky thing though is that it's still so hard to break through. It's such a fascinating conversation to have because whenever we present this data on fragmentation and our thinking around it, the question from labels is always like, okay, but how do we drive culture? How do we create those moments? How do we make something mainstream? And I think there's an opportunity to kind of, like, labels are really top heavy, right? They're focusing on like the top three artists in their roster, making them superstars, and I feel like there's maybe an opportunity to spread resources more evenly across the middle and create those kind of cult stars that we were just talking about. So I think it is about changing your definition of success. I just don't know, you know, if the music industry wants to. But they might have to, I don't know. 

[00:14:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because to your point, it could be potentially even more profitable to reflect the current playing field and invest in the people that have these niches, and knowing that even though it's not going to reach everyone if this person is reaching their tribe of people, then they can double down on that. And it could probably end up being even more successful, you investing all your resources to sell you know, three artists on your roster telling that they can be the next Drake.

[00:14:48] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, no, and talking about this is reminding me too of I think we both wrote about the Gunna and The Weeknd album release week, like, whenever that was, time is flying. I think that was like earlier in the year. And how, even though the weekend is like objectively a household name, a bigger star, Gunna had this more engaged niche fan base that, you know, latched onto this P phenomenon and it ended up vaulting him maybe into the mainstream. 'cause the album debuted at number one. So it's like, which of those scenarios is success? You know, like the P phenomenon that happened, so many people didn't even know that that was going on. It totally bypassed, like, the majority of the population, right? But for the target audience, it felt mainstream. And I think that that's like, what's so different about this current moment is that something can feel mainstream to that circle, but totally bypass the rest of the population. 

[00:15:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And there are so many factors at play in that that gets into this broader question that I've been thinking a lot about in terms of what does the closest thing we have to a benchmark for success look like, right? Because someone could easily look at that weekend that The Weeknd releases Dawn FM, and Gunna releases his album and Gunna outsells him, and then someone can think, oh, well, look at Gunna, you know, already selling more than the guy that performed at the Super Bowl. But if you look at it another way, The Weeknd is selling out stadiums right now and one of a handful of artists that can do that. And I love Gunna, I think he's had a great rise in everything, but he's nowhere near being able to sell out that much, at least in terms of where he is in his career right now. He could get there someday, but he's not there right now. So I feel like even that makes me wonder, okay, is streaming itself as a predictor for concert tickets or other things becoming harder to inform what it is really reflecting, or is that just its own individual metric that we are looking at? 

[00:16:50] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, I think it is becoming harder to use stream counts as a metric for fandom and for culture because I think those things are building off of streaming platforms. Like, fandom is building on, you know, TikTok or Twitch or wherever, whereas streaming is a lot more of a passive activity. So that's another thing is like, I feel like we need new metrics and one of them is, like, active versus passive listening, which is something that's kind of hard to track. How do you do that as a streaming platform? So yeah, I think streams don't always equal fans and that's becoming more and more true. It's just, it's a lot harder to discern. 

[00:17:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And that goes back into this broader question of the Billboard 200 and how it's trying to both combine streams, and pure album sales, and all these things to get to these numbers that we have. And it's becoming tougher and tougher to use that as a metric of what success is. If anything, these things are more reflecting, marketing budgets than they are popularity of the actual underlying music. And although the marketing was always tied with it, this is another thing that's separating further and further. And it reminds me of something that I know that MIDiA has talked about often in terms of measuring the success for these superstars when they do release albums. Remember Mark had that breakdown about Adele and how it should be, how her album for 30, we can't even compare what she had done when 25 came out in 2015, different era. She did pure CD sales and you could do that in 2015. You can't do that now. Although I think that vinyls have brought back an interesting conversation with some of this, but still it's difficult to do that, and it's making me think again because you had something similar when we looked at Beyoncé and I don't think you can necessarily compare Renaissance's numbers to Lemonade or the self-titled album before that. And we're going to have this conversation again when Taylor Swift's Midnight album comes out in a couple of months.


[00:18:53] Tatiana Cirisano: No, it's so true. And I actually, I had that exact conversation with someone recently about, you know, the Billboard 200 and the Hot 100 and how it's not necessarily measuring, there's a lot of places that get left out from that count in terms of how people are consuming music. Like, I think so much of listening is happening and the fandom around it is happening off platform these days or off DSPs. It's happening like on TikTok and all these other spaces, in games, you know, wherever. And I don't know if we're accurately measuring that. I also don't think that, like I said, we're measuring so much, you know, active versus passive listening and these sort of segments of fans on streaming. Like, streaming kind of equates everyone as the same consumer, right, whether you're a super fan or whether you just press play on a playlist and sit back, you're still paying the same. You're still kind of equated as the same thing. So the question is how should we measure success today? Or how should we measure cultural impact? It's so hard 'cause I think in a lot of ways it goes beyond music. Like, if you're an artist who has really had a cultural impact, that impact is transcending music anyway, and that's kind of what it means to be like an icon or to be a cultural icon in that way. So I don't know. It's really tough not to crack. Like, a lot of these things are qualitative, right? Like, how do you measure the cultural impact that something has? And I don't think that it necessarily parallels commercial success. Like, you can have something that had a huge cultural impact on a certain group but didn't really hit the charts or change the way that people think about making music but didn't really hit consumers the same way. So now I'm just ranting and rambling.

[00:20:34] Dan Runcie: Let's explore this a bit though. 

[00:20:36] Tatiana Cirisano: It's tough. 

[00:20:37] Dan Runcie: Let's explore a bit though because you brought up this point about active versus passive listening. So if I'm understanding you correctly, even if we started there, active listening is Gunna's album's coming out, I'm a Gunna fan, it's midnight. I want to press play and hear this album on Friday morning. 

[00:20:55] Tatiana Cirisano: That would be a great metric to know is, right, and I guess we have first-day streams as kind of an indicator. 

[00:21:01] Dan Runcie: But I guess you're saying, that's different from passive listening, which may be it's Friday. I just want to put RapCaviar on and then boom, RapCaviar has eight tracks that are going to be in the first 20 tracks that I just play as I'm going to work or something.

[00:21:17] Tatiana Cirisano: Right. Exactly. And I think that's where it's more and more difficult to know, and it would be really helpful information for artists to have as well because if you're going to go this route that we've been talking about of, you know, finding your niche and finding your biggest fans and sort of going from a bottom-up approach in this fragmented environment, trying to become a cult star, you need to know who your most active listeners are, and I think that's really hard for artists to know today. 

[00:21:43] Dan Runcie: I think part of the other challenge, too, with any type of metric is that the music industry itself is still tied to album sales. So anything that can translate back to that will always be there. So even if streams are how majority of music consumption is happening, as it relates to chart performance, it's always going to be challenging from that perspective because I feel like the resurgence of vinyl brings back an opportunity to push these things. I look at how well Harry Styles' album had performed, but a majority of the sales from that album was because of the vinyl that he had that was sold with it. But given all the shortages, how much of Harry Styles' performance is based on the pure demand that he had, which I know, obviously, he sold them. But because of how high his number is relative to, let's say some other artists that are signed to Sony and Columbia, what if they had the same type of inventory? I think that I had similar questions thinking about whether it was a Beyoncé or even a Kendrick Lamar. If they had the amount of vinyl inventory that he had, would it be a completely different discussion? I feel like the two of them maybe had around 300,000 or so first-week album sales, Harry Styles was over half a million. But if we were to still give them all the same inventory on that perspective, what that would look like? So there's all these ways that when you look at the data, it's telling you completely different things, but people are still just responding to the top line revenue number, and it brings us back into this whole thing that we just talked about with Gunna versus The Weeknd where it's like, okay. Yep, these numbers may tell you something, but when you really dig in, it's something completely different. So it becomes a mess to try to quantify. 


[00:23:37] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, exactly. You hit the nail on the head.

[00:23:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because the comparison I've always had as a joke is like let's say that the music industry was still stuck on trying to measure everything by DVD and VHS sales, right? So they had some amalgamation of some calculation that had whatever percentage of streams that you had on Netflix that was weighted with this, plus how many VHS sales you had, plus how many DVD sales, and this gives you a DVD equivalent unit. If you presented that metric to someone, someone would be like, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. 

[00:24:13] Tatiana Cirisano: Right, right. 

[00:24:13] Dan Runcie: They would laugh at you out of the door, but that's what we've normalized in the music at this time.

[00:24:19] Tatiana Cirisano: That's what we're doing. Isn't that just a metaphor for so much? Yeah, it's true. I also think it goes back to exactly what you're saying about, maybe these charts are more indicating the marketing budget and you know, how they decided about bundles or we're going to sell vinyl or whatever we're going to do to try to make it to the top of the charts. And I wonder what these charts would look like weighted differently, or we are talking about fragmentation. It's so fascinating to look at, you know, the charts across different platforms and see that they're totally different. So I do wonder a lot, like what are we actually measuring when we're looking at, you know, the Hot 100 or the Billboard 200.

[00:24:57] Dan Runcie: Great question and great segue, too, 'cause I wanted to chat with you about this, how you look at a lot of these platform charts, especially the non-digital streaming providers and the artists who are on the top look completely different. You even see this a little bit with some of the DSPs as well, where some of the artists on top of your Amazon and Apple music may look a little different from what you see on Spotify. What's your take on that overall and do you think that artists themselves should be keeping this in mind when they are focusing or when they are thinking about how best to build an audience? 

[00:25:34] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, no. I mean, I think that it's just another really apparent reflection of the fragmentation that's happening. And I think it does make sense knowing all this as an artist to rather than try and dominate every platform, which is next to impossible, trying to kind of find where you fit in and dominate there. And that is sort of like that bottom-up approach, but from a platform perspective, and also might, like, reduce the feeling from artists that they need to be, you know, popular everywhere and they need to be churning out content on every platform and all that. I think the risk though, is that, especially when we're talking about non-DSP, there's artists that maybe have the most followers on TikTok, but they're not being followed for their music. They're being followed 'cause they make funny videos or their song has the most uses because it's become a joke that people are sharing around and not as many people are streaming it offline. So I think it is a good idea as an artist to maybe figure out what platform fits you best, but you also need to understand, like, the particular sort of idiosyncrasies of each of those platforms. I also think, I think you've written about this a lot like segmenting your audience across platforms as a strategy. And I think that's another way that you can kind of use this information as an artist if you know that you have an audience on one platform that is looking for this specific thing and another, that's looking for another, why not, you know, release your full album on Spotify, but you know, the deluxe edition only on Patreon for your biggest supporters or something like that. Or even, there's this indie artist mxmtoon, who I think is a really interesting example of like a modern-day sort of artist slash creator where she has a presence on pretty much every platform. YouTube, she has a podcast, she's on TikTok, she has like a Discord, I think. But every single one of those is used for something totally different. And she has audiences that kind of funnel through all of them. But YouTube is where she does ukulele tutorials and, like, TikTok is where she does Q and As, and the Discord is where the true fans go to congregate. And that's also a path that may be unsustainable for a lot of artists, and I don't like, I'm not trying to suggest that everyone should be on every platform, you know, there are eight octopus arms, like doing all the things. I think that's one of the, like, things that's problematic about the creator economy, but, but yeah, I do think that it's really valuable for artists to understand this fragmentation and how it plays out on different platforms because I do think there are ways to navigate that and kind of use it to your advantage. 

[00:28:07] Dan Runcie: There's definitely a benefit to focus here. And this, as you mentioned, spans beyond artists. It does look at everyone that is a creator. And maybe just for clarity for the folks listening, when we're talking about DSPs, we're specifically talking about the ones that a lot of people are paying monthly subscriptions to, so your Spotify, Amazon, Apple music. When we're talking about non- DSPs, we're talking about the place where you could still hear music and artists can still build platforms, but they're not in the same type of way as the other. So we're talking about TikTok, we're also talking about YouTube and maybe some of the other platforms there, although YouTube does have some hybrid tendencies there, but to level set that piece of it. I do think that focus helps a lot because I look at someone like an NBA YoungBoy and how he's been able to just blow up and dominate on YouTube. That takes time of really understanding the algorithm, understanding what works here, and just given how big the platform is that did help him grow and have traction on Apple music, on Spotify, and on other places. So I've heard a lot of people refer to this 80-20 rule. That's a lot of content creators, which I think could be helpful for artists as well, where if there was a platform that you're focusing 80% of your time to try to focus on and just understand, especially if there's an advantage there where others that are in your niche, maybe aren't necessarily doing as much. And then you're still having your feet in the others to just understand what those opportunities could look like. I feel like that type of approach could work well because that's how you get to the levels of, you mentioned the independent artists who essentially tailored so much of the content for each area. And while there's a lot that benefits there, obviously, it isn't completely scalable, but I feel like that's how you get to these things. And we've seen other examples of how people have just focused on a particular platform or just doubled down the risk of that. Of course, when we can talk about this in a minute, is that you do relinquish a lot of your power to any decision that that platform does make, especially if you're relying on so much of it for your business when you necessarily own anything underneath that. So there's definitely trade-offs, but there's benefits too. 

[00:30:18] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, no, that's a huge issue there. Which we'll get, yeah, we'll get into more of that, that stuff in a minute, but this approach of like focusing on a platform also means that you're seeing these non- DSP platforms as a form of consumption in their own right, rather than just using them as a funnel to streaming, which I think is like a trap that the music industry has kind of fallen into is, oh, make something go viral on TikTok and then push everybody to Spotify. And it's like, if the fandom and the culture and a lot of consumption is happening on TikTok, you're leaving that on the table when you're pushing people to Spotify. And you know, I think that there's a lot to be gleaned there, and we should start thinking about these platforms as their own consumption platforms in their own right.

[00:30:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah. As a content creator myself, I've heard a lot of people use that analogy of give, give, give, give, give, and then ask. So it's not like you're just going there and asking and trying to transport folks over. You're still making some enough effort to make sure that you're connecting authentically with the folks on the platform, but you still know that when there was time for an ask, you're thoughtful about how you're doing, and you're not doing it all the time because trying to take people off the platform, especially TikTok, which has grown in so many ways because of passive engagement, it's even harder. 

[00:31:31] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, yeah, no, I think this is something that you wanted to get into anyway, but just, like, the objectives of the platform and the creator are totally different because the platform has the best-case scenario when there is all this passive viewing and people are just scrolling endlessly and they're spending a lot of time on the platform, but that's not the best case scenario for the creator. So the audience and the platform get all the benefit. And the creator kind of falls to the wayside. And I think that's a big issue that we're seeing in the creator economy. 

[00:31:57] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And this is a big issue that I know that people have had about Web 2.0 more broadly and just how this can be improved. The challenge I've seen though is that any type of platform I've seen that does try to be more creator-focused and doesn't try to do the same things that marginalize the content that the creators make, a lot of those platforms struggle to gain traction, or they're only used in these niche type of ways. So it creates a bit of this double-edged sword where the creators themselves feel like, well, if I focus on the platforms that are solely built to cater to me and prioritize me over the content, then it's going to be hard to get the users there because it isn't designed in a way to keep the users engaged, just thinking about the extent that the more popular platforms do and more popular platforms are the ones that prioritize the content over the creators. So it's one of these unfortunate situations that has continued on and on, and that's why we're at the point we are now.

[00:32:59] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, I think that we do see that happen more often than not. And before we even got to this point where content is becoming more important that the creator, which I could talk about in a minute the objectives are just totally, like I said, misaligned, like the platforms need scale. They need to monetize. All of the combined audiences of these individual creators. But the creators are looking more so for fan bases and engaged followers than they are looking for, you know, these passive audiences. So it actually, I think a lot of the struggles that creators are having with these platforms sort of echo issues that artists have had with streaming platforms in really interesting ways. Because it's similar to how like rights holders, like labels are monetizing scale of being able to own all of the songs and therefore all of the audiences of dozens, if not hundreds of artists, but those artists individually will never have enough scale to earn a meaningful income from streaming. And I think the same sort of thing is playing out with creators now where the platform is getting all the benefit because they get the combination of all these audiences and it's best for them. If people are just mindlessly scrolling, whereas creators have just totally different objectives and a different way of earning money. And then the current algorithm, or like the one that everyone's trying to kind of copy, which is TikTok, is making matters worse because there's no need to even actually follow anyone or, you know, really engage that much with the platform because you're going to be served content that is tailor-made for you regardless. So we're kind of teaching people with that kind of discovery-focused feed, not to actually follow individuals and more to just expect this constant flow of content. And again, going back to the parallels with streaming, it's interesting how we went from a few years ago, talking about TikTok as this amazing democratizing force to now talking about how well, yeah, it's democratized 'cause everybody can post anything, but it's impossible for anyone to get heard. We've gone through the same trajectory with streaming where, 5 years ago, we were all saying, oh, my God, streaming is great. It's democratized the industry. And in many ways it has, but now we're seeing all these second-order impacts where it's really, really hard for anyone to break through the noise, and it's really, really hard for anyone to earn meaningful income, so, yeah. 

[00:35:14] Dan Runcie: The pattern is clear. You laid it out perfectly. 

[00:35:17] Tatiana Cirisano: It's crazy. 

[00:35:17] Dan Runcie: And one thing about TikTok, everyone talks about how quick it is to grow a following, how favorable the algorithm is when you start off, and all those things are intentional. It is the easiest platform to be able to gain tens of thousands of followers and even more, but it's the hardest to be able to translate those followers into actual fans because it's more likely that they are going to be passive folks that are engaging versus active ones. And we're going to see more and more of that, especially given to goals to try to expand into so many other places, and then additionally, every other app trying to copy what TikTok is doing, because they see that being the norm. And now that that's what they see as the standard operating procedure for how to keep people's attention and engagement, everyone is trying to have their own version of that.

[00:36:09] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah, you know, and I think that people do have an appetite for, like, wanting to follow individuals. I mean, that's what everything has been based on up until now. And people were annoyed when Meta changed its algorithm and said, it's all going to be discovery-focused now because you go to Instagram to see updates from your friends and people that you follow, not to just get this feed of things that you've people you've never heard of. So I think that there is still, like, an appetite for that. And there's sort of a chance to recalibrate and allow more ways to actually follow creators and not just make it all about each individual piece of content. But I think that we're kind of in a critical window right now to preserve that. And I don't know if we're talking about this enough. Yeah, it's just the situation, like to kind of bring it back to artists is really difficult because you need every individual thing that you post to do well. It's not enough to just have one thing, draw someone in because they might not even follow you from there. And they're just consistently scrolling and getting more and more content. So there's just this endless churn of content happening. And it's just, yeah, it's benefiting audiences and it's benefiting platforms, but it's not benefiting creators. 

[00:37:18] Dan Runcie: The need to preserve is there, as you mentioned, and we talked a lot about some of the platforms that have made it challenging. Are there ready that stand out to you that you're like, okay, they are at least making an effort or do you feel like there's more opportunity there relative to some of the other platforms that exist?

[00:37:35] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. I do think that YouTube could be an exception to the rule with this. I think that it's a really interesting company because when you think about it, they kind of were the original creator economy company and kind of are seemingly doubling down on that now. I think that it's great how there's sort of this network between YouTube shorts, YouTube music, YouTube, and that's sort of what I think is missing, but won't be for long from TikTok is that you have to switch to a different platform to listen to the music, which is why if ByteDance, you know, release Resso worldwide or make this TikTok music app, it might become crazy powerful, but, yeah, I think YouTube does have this focus on channels and following people. And I think a lot of creators have been able to build sustainable incomes there. But I do worry that the impact of all these other platforms kind of teaching people not to follow and not to follow individuals and channels is going to have an impact, but I think YouTube has a lot of potential. 

[00:38:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think so, too. It definitely is the platform, bad thing has the most ability to offer this just given the full complexity of whether or not you're an artist, you're someone that's creating any type of thing that has video, you're probably going to be on there. I also do think about platforms like SoundCloud, Audiomack, and Tidal as well because...

[00:38:55] Tatiana Cirisano: A hundred percent.

[00:38:56] Dan Runcie: ... even though they may not necessarily fit into the same buckets as some of the others we mentioned, I do think that the things they've tried to do, whether it's with SoundCloud's fan-powered royalties or with Tidal's user-centric base model, which is similar, or even what Audiomack has done with its supporters program, allowing people to say, Hey, this is the person that I want to give my money to. If there's extra money at the end of the year, this is the person I want to have a badge on and want to be able to share that with the profile, they keep the connection there. They're willing to share who are particular artists' followers and fans are, which is something that most of the other DSPs don't allow to happen. So I do think that they are more unique opportunities. And also, I would say tracing back to the last thing we talked about, a place where a lot of artists, if they are trying to build up a fan base on a particular platform could be an interesting angle to prove, because I do think there is a certain type of fan and artist that thrives on each of those platforms individually, just given the brand there, everything else. So those are the ones that I keep an eye out for, the same way that we saw NBA YoungBoy and others rise up. SoundCloud, of course, had its SoundCloud rap era and there's still artists coming out there. And of course, Tidal, I think, just given its origins will always have deep roots within hip-hop culture. So I'm always keeping an eye out for those.

[00:40:18] Tatiana Cirisano: A hundred percent. No, I'm glad you brought up Audiomack and SoundCloud. Those are two companies that, I mean, we worked with SoundCloud on a user-centric royalties white paper that was really just eye-opening with all of this. And I do think that there are opportunities to, going back to what we were saying about being able to actually segment your fans on streaming and see who are your biggest supporters and not have everyone just equated into the same bucket. I think what Audiomack is doing is really smart because those support badges are also a way for people to express themselves. If you have that in your profile, you know, it says something about who you are. And I think there's a lot more opportunities to bring music and self-expression closer together 'cause I think that streaming has kind of pulled them apart a little bit by sort of equating everyone. So yeah, I think those are really good examples and really promising.

[00:41:04] Dan Runcie: So there you have it. We solved it. I think in this conversation, we solved it all. 

[00:41:10] Tatiana Cirisano: There we go. We can all go home. Class is dismissed. 

[00:41:13] Dan Runcie: This is great. Tati, thanks for sharing your insights and some of the highlights of the research you've done on this space. Excited to see what you have coming up next, especially now that things are ramping back up for the industry. So for the folks listening, where can they stay tuned to keep up with the latest research that you have coming out? 

[00:41:32] Tatiana Cirisano: Yeah. You can go to MIDiAResearch.com, where we have a blog that I write on often. Those posts are free. So even if you're not a client, you can read them. And I also wanted to mention that I'll be talking more about this exact topic at Stan Con in New York on October 5th, which is Denisha, who I think she had an episode with you recently, right, Dan. If you heard that episode, it's her conference, so I'll be there talking more about fandom and fragmentation. So looking forward to that and thank you so much for having me. 

[00:41:59] Dan Runcie: Of course, great minds coming together. I'm glad you're going to that. That's awesome. Thank you.

[00:42:03] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.



]]> 2585 no How Roy Wood Jr. Is Evolving His Comedy https://www.trapital.com/podcast Returning to Trapital for a second time is comedian Roy Wood Jr. We last spoke in mid-2020 when lockdowns curbed his usual comedy performance routine. On the outside, it might not seem Roy has changed much since our first convo — he’s still a regular on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah — but internally, Roy is amidst another career evolution. Roy made a successful comedic career — three specials on Comedy Central over a five-year span — out of finding unique angles to discuss external events such as news and politics. But now, Roy wants to talk about himself. Spurred by an appearance on PBS’ “Find Your Roots”, Roy is more introspective about the relationship with his father, a civil rights activist, and how it influences raising his own son. How and where Roy delivers this refined message hasn’t been decided yet. For now, Roy is taking time for himself to think through how he’s changed, and so has comedy and the entertainment industry at-large. In our discussion, Roy hinted at some of those major changes. Here’s what we covered: [3:15] The state of live comedy in 2022 [5:32] Roy’s insane performing streak from 1998-2020 [6:27] Why the comedy club isn’t the right venue for Roy right now  [11:45] Comedian expectations have changed  [13:35] Morality vs. profit  [17:05] Roy’s partnerships [18:42] Roy’s criticism of Netflix and streaming [26:27] The new superstar is an assemble cast  [31:08] How Roy chooses comedic topics [34:43] Roy’s most personal joke [35:24] How much does Roy’s son know about his comedy career?  [37:39] How Dick Gregory changed Roy’s life [40:48] Roy starring in Confess, Fletch movie Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Roy Wood Jr., @roywoodjr   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Roy Wood Jr.: You can be funny, you can get away with being funny for a little while, but true career longevity as a comedian, I believe, you have to make people feel, you have to give them an emotion. Sooner or later they have to leave feeling a certain way. It's not just a matter of the tactile Xs and Os of did they laugh at the setup? Did they laugh at the punchline? Okay, next joke. It's what are you infusing into that person's heart on the backside of this experience that you all had together on stage for an hour.   [00:00:36] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:56] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Roy Wood Jr. This is his second time back on the podcast. The first time we recorded a podcast was back in the middle of 2020, middle of the pandemic. And we talked a lot about how the closure of comedy clubs and the closure of everything was affecting his life as a comedian and what he saw the world would be like on the other side of the pandemic. And now we're starting to be here, so it was a great opportunity to check in, hear how things are going for him. And we talked a lot about how the past couple of years have reshaped his perspective on the type of message that he wants to be able to. What are the best venues to do that and how he might change his approach up a little bit in the next few years. We also talked about streaming and what it's been like from his perspective as someone that is acting in movies, acting in TV shows, writing and producing shows as well, and how it's been like navigating these streaming networks, what their goals and incentives are. What his goals and incentives are and what he has seen from others in this space. We also talked about his upcoming movie Confess, Fletch. It's out in theaters on September 16th. It stars Jon Hamm. This is a reboot of the classic Chevy Chase Fletch movies from the eighties. So we talked about what to expect there, what he's excited about and more. Roy's good people, man, plain and simple. If you listen to the last conversation that him and I had, you know that if you've watched anything he's ever done on The Daily Show, ever seen him perform standup, you know that as well. Here's our conversation. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:30] Dan Runcie: All right. We are joined today by a return guest to the Trapital podcast, the one, the only, Roy Wood Jr. How are you doing man?  [00:02:38] Roy Wood Jr.: You're back. I'm back. You're welcome. You're all welcome. I apologize in advance for my voice. There's things that happened this week that I did not plan on happening. And this is the result. It was either this or cancel, and I didn't want to cancel it.  [00:02:54] Dan Runcie: No, I appreciate you. Hey, it's either this, or, you know, this is part of getting back on the road, right, 'cause I feel like the last time we talked, we were talking about what the other side of this whole pandemic was going to look like and what it was going to be like for comics returning to the stage. And now you're in it. What has it been like to return to the stage and with everything?  [00:03:15] Roy Wood Jr.: What's wild is that I can't tell you too much. You know in 2022 I've only done four or five road gigs. Most of my gigs this year were COVID makeup dates from '21. So I've been blessed enough to be able to, you know, have a podcast that I'm able to do for myself, and sell a couple of scripts, and just create other revenue streams for myself, when the pressure to go back out on the road wasn't there. Also, creatively, I'm just in a different spot, bro. And I know that the stuff that I want to talk about, I don't know if the comedy club is the right place. It's part of the process creatively, but I just haven't been in a rush to get back out to figure it out yet, you know? It's been a really weird year for me in that the thing that I've done for 23 years is the thing that I did the least this year. And you know, that part of it's been really odd. It seems like the clubs are doing well though. You know, I still talk to a lot of comedians that are in the clubs because I'm still kind of that on the outside looking in. So I see all the comics who are touring, there's guys who I didn't know were headliners yet, but apparently, they are now. They're out there, they're doing their thing as well. So, you know, I'd say, all in all, it seems like the comedy club model got through it okay. But I don't know how sustainable it is as an entertainer to continue to be a part of this standup comedy model. You know, a lot of these new cats, you know, they're finding their own venues and they're figuring out their own way through the internet to get shit popping for themselves. But, you know, I will say this about standup. Since the shutdown, this idea of having one magical five-minute set on late night, and that being the thing that definitively becomes the new pivot point in your career, the likelihood of that happening is definitely less and less as the years go by. [00:05:09] Dan Runcie: Interesting. I could only imagine how big of a life change it is for you. I remember you saying in the past, from when you started this once out of every 10 days, you were doing something on the road, right? Whether it was a standup show or something, and for you to be doing this completely different now, and just thinking about what the adapting is a complete life change, let alone anything on the business side of things. [00:05:32] Roy Wood Jr.: Until the shutdown, until a federally mandated government shutdown, from 1998, I'd never gone more than 10 days without performing, period.  [00:05:41] Dan Runcie: It's huge.  [00:05:43] Roy Wood Jr.: And I've gone months. I look forward to it for months at a time. I don't have another gig right now. And I have a corporate gig in three months and I'm like, perfect, perfect because it gives me the time, it gives your brain the time to settle. I can only imagine, you know, when you look at guys like Chris Rock, who have said, you know, you need time to go away and live and see the world and experience things and have something to come back and report on. I understand that now. [00:06:13] Dan Runcie: You also mentioned too, that there's material that you want to talk about, topics that you want to discuss that the stage may not be the best place for that. What are the things you want to discuss and why isn't the stage the best format?  [00:06:27] Roy Wood Jr.: It's not the stage it's comedy club specifically. Like, alright, so I did Finding Your Roots over the shutdown and found out a lot of new truths about my father and, you know, some stuff on my mother's side, but as a father, myself, I often feel this attachment to my dad and then looking at how my father lost his dad when he was four. My granddaddy was gone when my dad was four. So when I think about that type of stuff, how that will inform the type of man that I will be to my son, and just family, and bonds, and the men who raise me in my father's absence. And there's jokes and there's stories, but as I figure out what the heart of the story is first before I make it funny, I don't know if the comedy club is always the right place for that because the comedy club, motherfucker, we want the jokes. I've been drinking. Me and my wife got dressed. I came here to be happy. You up there talking about your dead daddy and trying to figure out what that means for your son, motherfucker, I don't want to hear all that shit without jokes. So I think there's a place to go and develop that, you know, New York has a lot of different places, but also I think it's important for me to do my standup in venues other than comedy clubs because I think that sometimes, depending on the venue, you know, jazz club or black box, little theater or some improv house, I believe it changes how the material is received. You know, it changes how people listen to you sometimes. This is a terrible analogy and it's not going to be a perfect analogy, but it's like how food tastes better in church. You know, like when your grandma will pull a peppermint out of her purse, and she gave you that peppermint in the middle of a long ass church service, and that peppermint tasted like a pizza hu meat lovers. Like, it was just an amazing, so where we are sometimes can change the experience and the connection to the material. And so as I start mining this material, I'm going to have to figure out the best places to put it all together 'cause I feel like I'm teetering into some one-person show territory. And, you know, every comedian that I know that did a one-man show, you know, they didn't build it in a comedy club. You can sure present it at a comedy club, but you cannot build it there. That's why I've been meaning to talk to Jerrod to figure out where he built up Rothaniel 'cause, you know, that one was definitely a blend of the two skill sets.  [00:08:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a good example of it. Just how he was able to be so raw, be so personal and different than anything he had done before leading up to this. I got to imagine, too, that part of this may also be linked with just the evolution of comedy and some of the other topics you've talked about recently and how people, especially nowadays, are looking for comedians to be truthsayers or they're also looking for them to be the ones that can tell them certain messages and how there's some people that believe that should be the case, but there's others that, I know you said this before, that it shouldn't necessarily be that way. So I feel like there's some of that that could also be potentially in line with some of the broader feeling about what is the best message to communicate where.  [00:09:39] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah. And I think once you figure that out as a performer, the people will come find you. You know, I don't really think it matters where you go once people love you, they will follow you to wherever, you know, so I think that's it. They went to a farm to see Chappelle. So you can come up with different venues, you know, once you have the ideas that are worth hearing. So it's my job first to get the ideas together. [00:10:02] Dan Runcie: Right, yeah. There's something about that comedy club setting, like you said. You're going with your significant other, you got the two-drink minimum. No, like I'm trying to get these laughs out that just doesn't, that works there. That doesn't necessarily translate elsewhere that could obviously work to your benefit going elsewhere.  [00:10:18] Roy Wood Jr.: You can get deep in a comedy club, but you really have to stack the show properly. The people have to know who they're coming to see. And I'm still a comedian where, you know, with The Daily Show, unfortunately, this is a lot of people's first discovery point for me. So you don't know the previous 15, 16 years before I got with Trevor. So, you know, even those people come to a show and they want me to be a little more political than what I am on this show. And I'm like, sorry, that's not who I am. That's not what I do. So even within the construct of just regular standup, they still want something more specific. So, you know, it's about just figuring out, you know, the right places for that. But if you put that person in a setting they've never been to before, well, now you don't know what to expect. And I just think it just changes how you see and analyze things a little bit. You know, I'm going to try to experiment with, you know, different venues in '23. [00:11:15] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. You mentioned the politics piece of it, too, and just , given what you and Trevor are doing on The Daily Show, people coming to you for that. But I assume part of it also is channeling back to that truthsayer thing and seeing some of the things that Chappelle and others have talked about. Do you think that the way the current climate is that when people are expecting you to speak on these things, do you think that this changes and continues to evolve, or do you feel like this is kind of the place that things are right now?  [00:11:45] Roy Wood Jr.: I don't think that the role of comedian has changed. I think that the expectations of a comedian have changed. Some for the better some for the worse, but I can't think of any one standup comedian that I know that is, like, set and looked themselves in the mirror, okay, today these jokes are going to change everyone's and change the world. You know, comics are more outspoken. Comics are more, you know, quicker to say what they feel on stage, especially the young ones, which is good. But I don't feel like when people say this climate, the climate is about the people reacting to what the comedian said, but most of these comedians that people get mad at, they've been saying shit like this for a long as time. But they're groups of people that have decided, you know what? I want to hear that shit no more. So they got something to say and they got a right to that. But I think at the end of the day, I don't think comedians have changed. I mean, Louis C.K. Back, he's cooking. Chappelle got another three special re-up from Netflix after all of the outrage or whatever. So that should show you where the corporations stand. And for as long as you are an entertainer that has an audience of some sort, you know, they're going to find a place for you regardless of whether or not that pisses off another group of people. You know, that's just kind of where we've always existed as a society. It's capitalism, baby.  [00:13:10] Dan Runcie: Does part of you see someone like, let's take Chappelle, 'cause you had mentioned him, him still getting these deals even after the backlash or even after the response. Does some of that almost feel like, okay, we're not necessarily just responding to what people may get mad at, there's still clearly an opportunity or there's still people that want to hear what we have to say, even if the expectations from our viewers have changed?  [00:13:35] Roy Wood Jr.: I think that as a society, you know, it is very difficult to place the expectation of morality and profit on a corporation. Most corporations have to choose between one or the other. And when I say profitability, you know, we're talking gross levels of profitability. I don't think many companies care to a certain degree about people in general. You know, this is bigger than just entertainment and whether or not you can say something that pisses off a group of people. Delta Airlines just started paying their flight attendants for when the plane doors open and they're boarding passengers. It's nothing moral. There's nothing moral about that, but it's definitely profitable. And only when it became embarrassing, which is not profitable, that they become a company with morals. If you can't attach profitability to morality, more often than not, you're not going to find a corporation that's going to make moves like that. I'm not surprised that Netflix gave Chappelle more specials for the amount of people that were mad at it, clearly, somebody was watching it and this is Netflix. Netflix cancels shit while you are in the middle of watching the episode. The second episode of a 10-episode show will come out and Netflix about, yes, cancel. What? Damn, can I finish? Season one? Nah, we've already looked at the metrics of the first episode that tells us everything we need to know. So, you know, that's a company that, you know, like people say that, oh, it's a FU to the LGBTQI community. It's definitely a slight to them for them to rebook Chappelle after they had said what they said and everybody had protested, whatever, whatever. But also Netflix is a company and that's about profit, which means somebody was watching Chappelle. And that's all they care about. That's all most companies care about is eyeballs. So, you know, unless you're getting into just straight-up criminalistic behavior of someone, morality versus profit is always going to be a tug of war that most corporations, they just do not have the heart that people do. [00:15:34] Dan Runcie: That's real. That's real. I mean, and even thinking about Chappelle specifically, because of how Netflix tracks the performance, a lot of the backlash likely helps those episodes because you have some that are tuning in because they want to hear what he has to say. But you have others tuning in because now they want to see or hear what he said that is causing all of these headlines. [00:15:55] Roy Wood Jr.: And that's all Netflix cares about. So the surprise on the backside is that can you believe this company didn't care? Yes, I can absolutely believe this company didn't care because more often than not most companies don't care. And that goes into women's rights, that goes into race, and George Floyd, and every company putting up black lives matter, whatever the fuck on the top of their website, and black squares and Instagram. So, you know, when it comes to a bevy of social, it is just, you know, it's interesting because corporations are now rocking a heart because now being moral. if it's profitable and cool, they'll jump on board. But if it's not, they're kind of like, eh, we'll see. [00:16:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. You've experienced this, you've worked with a number of these networks and seen the decisions that you've made. How has this impacted you at all with any of the partnerships you've made? I know you have the deal with Comedy Central that you've had. I know you had a special that came out with them, but we'll talk about that in a second. But how has that been with regards to you, and your specials, and your content, and how that works for you, both with the things that you want to do with the networks, and how you're able to still produce and create?  [00:17:05] Roy Wood Jr.: You know, from the standup side, you know, it's fine. We're Comedy Central. You know, we had a, I call it The Trilogy. I had my first three-hour specials with Comedy Central and they were good. And now, as I think about what that next block of content will be, you know, we'll figure out where that's supposed to go once I figure out creatively, what the fuck it's going to be? But, you know, on the scripted side and selling scripts, I've been very blessed to have opportunities to sell stuff, not just the Comedy Central, but you know, Fox and NBC in the last couple of years and HBO Max as well. but the thing is that it's very difficult to predict how COVID is going to affect a network's creative strategy when it comes to scripted, you know. Like scripted is, that's where the glory is. That's where the fun is, right? But, you know, I had one script, Jefferson County: Probation. Aaron Magruder was my, you know, executive producer and co-creator on it. And as soon as we got the script together and shot the pilot, there was a merger between Viacom and CBS and they changed their strategy. And then right after that COVID hit and they changed their strategy again. And at both of those mile markers, scripted shows were the first things to get cut from the budget because they're the most expensive. So the pressure to be profitable fast or to have a cultural impact fast is greater now on the content that, you know, that we have because the thing that I don't like about Netflix is that what streaming has removed from our zeitgeist is the concept of a cult hit. You know, like a cult hit TV show. Cult is just a nice way of saying underground and not a lot of people watch it, but the ones who watch it really, really love it. But there are shows that sometimes do not pop until season three. Sometimes season four and it takes people a while to get on board, but then you have a network that has creative execs who want to stay in that pocket. And now we believe in this show. We're going to give it another season, give it another season, give it another season. This don't happen with black shows. I'm talking about Arrested Development and you know, shit like that. And maybe The Wire, if you want to count that as a cult hit. But I feel like The Wire was more by the time they got to season four, everybody was on board, but at that point, HBO was like, wrap it up. Streaming, the analytics that are attached to streaming companies deciding whether or not a scripted show lives or dies has eliminated the ability for certain shows to germinate over a year or two, and really have an opportunity to find their audience, get the word of mouth. Everything is now, now, now. And so because of that, you know, where scripted is concerned, you have to have an idea that pops now, that sails, now that gets on TV now. And if you're really lucky, it also touches the vein of what is happening in the now. That's why Abbott Elementary is what it is. You have a great creator. You have a great writer. It's well cast, it's shot beautifully, it's funny, but also educators are at the forefront of a lot of the bullshit that's been going on the last two years. It's perfectly on the pulse. It's perfectly on the pulse. So, you know, word of mouth isn't enough. You also have to have the numbers. And so, you know, I'd say that for me, when it comes to coming up with scripted content, you almost have to find something that lives. You have to have the idea that lives at multiple intersections, because if it's just a fun, cool, nice idea. That might not be enough anymore. That's 2015 ideology.  [00:20:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The closest thing that seems like it's comparable to that cult classic of discovering it seasons later is when something gets picked up from a smaller network and then gets put on one of these big streamers. For instance, I'm thinking about South Side. Season Two. It's on HBO Max. And I think that made a lot of people that weren't watching South Side Season One discover it.  [00:20:57] Roy Wood Jr.: Correct. Like, there's a show that was on in Canada that came over to Netflix called Kim's Convenience and that was a fucking hilarious sitcom that somebody like me, I would've never discovered had it not come over to, but it had to live over in Canada for two years. But you need execs who care about the IP and care about the idea. And a lot of these execs are under the same pressure as the creatives. You better be bringing this studio, some hit shows and you better be signing and buying scripts from the best creators 'cause if you aren't and we don't have a hit, if we're not getting nominations, and we're not getting talked about it's your ass, too. So if you have an exec that is betting on a show, that's just has midling numbers versus just canceling it, and bringing in something new, there's also job security in that for them as well. And I think that's why, you know, to a degree, you know, you don't see shows that get an opportunity to build and grow their audience, either you a hit out the gate or you got a target on your back.  [00:21:57] Dan Runcie: The other challenging thing about this is knowing what those numbers are and whether or not the streaming services are sharing them with you. From your perspective as someone that is doing the scripts, selling shows, do you feel like you're getting any true quantitative aspect to be able to compare and say, okay, I see what I would've been able to hit or what the target is or how that compares, 'cause that's the piece that feels so non-transparent at all right now. [00:22:26] Roy Wood Jr.: That part of the game is still above my pay grade because I haven't gotten anything that's gone to series. I've sold a bunch of scripts that have all gone to pilot and most have gone to pilot at least. But even with the stuff over at Comedy Central, you know, we're on basic cable. So it's Nielsen. So, you know, that's more above board than companies giving their streaming numbers. But I wouldn't even be able to speak to that, unfortunately. I hope to be able to one day, but not today.  [00:22:51] Dan Runcie: Yeah. There was some interview I had seen it was Steven Soderbergh or someone like that. And he was like, I have no idea how well these movies do. They literally just tell me, yes, this was good. You can make another one or no, we're all set. Thanks. And he's just like, okay, then that's when he decides to make another movie.  [00:23:08] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah, that part of it, yeah, you are totally flying blind as a creator. You know, at some point there's going to have to be some equity in this, but, hey, sooner or later, all of these streaming sites are just going to keep merging and folding into one another. It's like airlines in the eighties. Go Google up how many different airline carriers we had in the eighties. And then here we are now with United, Delta, Southwest, JetBlue, and, what, American. Spirit and JetBlue emerging. So, okay, so you'll have, what, four or five major carriers? In the eighties, there was like, well, over 30. I could Google it real quick, but I know for sure I can name 15 airline companies from the eighties and I bet you the numbers are higher than that.  [00:23:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's that whole industry. Even the big ones have done so many consolidations, even in the past 20, 25 years, they've done a bunch. It's been wild.  [00:23:59] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah. My point is that all those streamers are going to eventually all keep folding into each other and it's going to be basic cable all over again.  [00:24:05] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. And I think, too, even how they're making decisions is starting to stand out. I'm sure you saw the Batgirl news when the movie's done, they just decide not to run that thing and just put it as a write-off. That's not going to be the last time that happens.  [00:24:20] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah. It's literally cheaper to not release this because the landscape keeps changing, bro. My heart goes out to that whole team. They are crushed about that. You know, as they should, but you work hard on a film, spend 90 million, at least you could do is put it out. But, you know, I just think that, you know, corporations like it's, again, it's profit. The right thing to do would've been to release the Batgirl film, but if projections and analytics have already told you that this film more than likely will underperform in the top tier markets where we need it to perform above money, profitability, it ain't profitable. Morality ain't profitable, man. So fuck them folks. We ain't going to release the film. Oh, but we should, they worked really hard. It's a black woman get to be black. We don't give a fuck. Cancel it. That's how a lot of places think, man. And you know, as they say, the game is the game, but that don't make it right. That don't make it hurt less. I just think that that's where a lot of companies are coming from, you know. They want bankable stars or an idea that's high concept and easy and quick and catches on. I still think that, you know, when you look at a show like Squid Game, which was such a breakout, you know, hit for Netflix, I think that the new superstar is the ensemble. You know, if you can't get a single star to carry your thing, then you need a great idea with a bunch of people nobody knows anything about. And then that's how you get people to invest, get people to invest in the concept and not the face. [00:25:47] Dan Runcie: Interesting. I can see that because I feel like there's so many big-name movies that you see on Netflix and they have all of these actors that you would consider to be A-list, but they come and go. But yeah, the magic of Squid Game is that it didn't have that, but it had this fascinating topic that people just wanted to have more and more of. It created a bunch of memes. And I'm sure not only they're trying to create a sequel, they're trying feel like, okay, what is the next thing like that that's going to take off. And sometimes it's random. I mean, I don't know if people thought that Queen's Gambit was going to take off the way that it did or any of those things. I feel like Netflix, especially, it feels like it could be very, you know, we'll see what happens. [00:26:27] Roy Wood Jr.: I mean, when you look at shows that have sustainability and have expanded their universes, like Power, there isn't a single actor in Power that is such a behemoth. Like, and I don't say that as a slight, it's an extremely talented cast of wonderful A-list actors. But when you look at how they try to anchor a show around one person, where Power is, it's always been a universe of people all working together. Of course, you have Mary J and Method Man in it, but it's not Mary J and Method Man alone to, it's not Joseph Sikora alone. Abbott is an ensemble cast. It's not a singular person. And so I think that concept will, I don't know, man. Why do you think people get so excited when Idris Elba comes back to do another round of Luther? It's 'cause, oh, my God, it's him. You get Idris every scene being badass, but he's busy, he's got movies to do and stuff. So I just think creatively, we're probably in a world where, you know, by and large, I feel like we'll just see more and more, you know, larger groups of people unless you have a network willing to pour millions of dollars into one person. You know, I don't know. [00:27:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think, too, we talked a little bit about how this is part of the evolution. Part of it, too, they want to have something that's quick to capture people's attention. And I think some of this has impacted how comics, and you as well, have talked about how it may approach your shows and how you're delivering certain information. And I know you've talked a lot about both the balance of having the timely topics, of talking about something that's current versus having those evergreen things that you need to, or you want to be able to tap into. And I feel like, you know, why actually Imperfect Messenger, you did a good job of that with just being able to balance things, you know, whether you're talking about current topics or just evergreen things. How conscious is that when you're thinking about the topics that you want to cover in a special? [00:28:22] Roy Wood Jr.: Well, for Imperfect Messenger, my comedic philosophy up until now, it has changed now 'cause I want to talk about myself and not the world. But the creative excavation process of a joke for me boils down to what is everybody saying about this topic. And is there anything new I can say? And if the answer is yes, then I continue down that road of exploration and then I put that joke on stage and then the best jokes win. As I like to call it, those are the jokes that make the 25-man roster, like baseball. Like, these are the start. 12- man, if you want to go basketball. So, you know, if the argument is A and B, is there a C side to it that I can introduce? Like if you look at my second special, No One Loves You, where I talk about the national anthem and the debate at the time with Kaepernick was should people stand for the anthem or should you take a knee? And my angle was why is that song the anthem? That song sucks. And then an exploration into what songs could replace it. What, if you won't stand for that song, is there a song that people would stand for? And so that's kind of my approach, you know, to a lot of this. You know, and if we're going to talk about Imperfect Messenger and we talk about policing and, you know, the issues that lie in policing in America now. Okay, fine. It's going to take bureaucracy and a lot of bullshit to try and get that changed. But in the meantime, in the interim, what are the small things cops could do to help? And then the joke is just essentially, a run of those things. You know, every now and then just let a black person, someone who should have gone to jail, let them go. If there's Stop Talking in Code on the radio, I forget my material. Like, literally the night I do a special, that material just turns into Thanos dust in my brain. But for me. That's how I've always tried to approach standup and my material rather than just arguing from the conventional positions that have already been presented to everybody because if nothing more, I want you to leave with a different perspective. I'm not trying to be right or wrong. I am just trying to make sure that you get something that you hadn't considered.  [00:30:26] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I always got that impression. I feel like that's a good example. I also think about, from Imperfect Messenger, your piece about Leonardo DiCaprio and Django Unchained and even though that movie, you know, I think like eight years ago at that point, still everyone knows exactly who you're talking about. It's timely. It's not dated in this way of a comedian still referencing, you know, pop culture from the nineties, but you have it. And you're able to weave that in with everything that's happening. And I feel like even though that was a movie that was a few years older, you're still relating it to all the topics we're talking about now, like allyship and all those things. So I feel like people may not see the subtleties, but when you really break it down, you can see how much goes into constructing a good joke. [00:31:08] Roy Wood Jr.: I appreciate that, man, 'cause you get paranoid about that type of stuff, 'cause you don't want to be dated, but are there evergreen examples of a point that I'm trying to make that could help me parallel and boil this down, you know, a little bit more? You know, that special was also very interesting because the story that I told near the end about a childhood friend that's in prison for the murder of a person I know, but, you know, he was the getaway driver. You know, like that was a joke. He was a getaway driver in a robbery that turned into a murder is what actually happened in real life. And so he never went in the store, but in Alabama, the law is set up where everybody gets the murder charge. If a murder happens while your crime is being committed. And that joke was set up in a way where it was really about him and the sentencing and how it's all messed up and blah, blah, blah. But you know, there's part of me that's, you know, I love Birmingham. I love Birmingham, Alabama. I love the people there. And I've tried, you know, for the entirety of my career since 2001, when I came home and started at the radio station and started doing stuff in the community with the radio station. I've always tried to be a person that's of the community. And so that joke carries a different level of responsibility when I'm home because everyone remembers that murder. Everyone remembers Mr. Muhammad being murdered at the Music-N-More store and that man was a pillar of the community. So if I'm going to speak on his legacy, there's got to be balance to that. And you know what. I probably should reach out to his family before I put this on national television. And so when I did that and I had a conversation with his son, it completely shifted what that joke was and it made it the right version of what that joke needed to be. And that's the thing that I really enjoy. And it's part of really what's triggered so much more of where I am now creatively because that just wasn't an A, B, and C observation. This was a legitimate issue that I was having within myself of feeling like my friend should not be in prison for the rest of his life for being an accomplice, but also feeling empathy for the family, because I knew them. Like, they carry my CD and I'll spare the story here, but in the special, you know, I tell the story of my relationship with this store as an independent music artist, like this store supported local rappers and, like, they help people kickstart their career. So it's not as cut and dry. So when you look at a law, like, the one that Alabama has set up and then you start talking to the victims, then you start understanding why these laws are in place. And so that will always be my favorite joke isn't the word, but it's definitely the most honest joke that I've told on television to this point.  [00:34:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Well, definitely link it to this one to make sure that people can see it, that or listening to this episode right now and just bringing it all full circle. I can see how this is informing the type of content or the type of message that you want to be able to push forward, whether you're telling it in a different setting, whether you're finding new ways to tell it, it has been really cool to see how so many of our favorite comedians have been able to find new ways to be able to share different messages or even things that they may have to give a little piece of and seen that that's where they want to move more into for the next stage of their career. So I'm excited for that.  [00:34:43] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah, it's going to be fun. You know, it's going to be fun, talking more about my father, my relationship with him talking about, you know, raising my own child. My son is six. So you know, that is definitely a new and scary place to be as a parent. But yeah, yeah, I'm excited about what's down the road, but I'm just not in a position anymore where I feel like I need to rush. You know, I was very blessed, but also probably very crazy. I put out three one-hour specials over the span of five years. That's a pretty healthy clip, you know? So I feel like I should go sit my ass down somewhere for a second and really think about, you know, what it is I want to say and what I'm trying to do.  [00:35:24] Dan Runcie: What's your son's relationship with your comedy? Is it something that he goes and checks back in looking back at old clips, just to see the history of where you came to things, or is he not allowed to look at all that just yet? [00:35:37] Roy Wood Jr.: He might catch me on the couch every blue moon watching old episodes of The Daily Show. Like, I binge our show every week, 'cause I don't get to always watch it every night 'cause of whatever's going on. So he may pop in and see me on television. Like, if you ask my son what his father does for a living, he'll say my dad works on TV and he's a comedian. Like, he knows that much. He's been with me to sound checks early in the afternoon for, you know, theater shows and stuff. But the idea of bringing him around this and exposing him to it for the sake of this is what you're going to do, this's a family business. Nah, not really. I'd like for him to see some of the cameramen and the editors and the computer stuff. I don't think my son will be a comedian because he has two loving parents, which is already the worst thing that could happen to a comedian. To be a good comedian, you can't have both of your parents love you. What trauma you got? We want to know what's wrong with you.  [00:36:32] Dan Runcie: Right. What is the source of the comedy then? [00:36:35] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah, so we're trying to raise him as pain-free as possible. So I think that's going to make him ineligible for most comedy clubs.  [00:36:41] Dan Runcie: maybe he'll go back and look at the old stuff. He'll go back to that. You know, the Last Comic Standing run, then he'll come back to see, okay, all right. I can see this trajectory here. I can see what dad's been up to.  [00:36:52] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah. I mean, he's funny. He has a sense of humor. He's cognizant of that, but it's not something I encourage or discourage. It's just, you know, whatever you feel like doing today, bro. Then that's what you're going to do. Like right now he's into the BattleBots. So let's watch and do things that are related to mechanics and STEM and see where that goes. [00:37:10] Dan Runcie: I'm hearing a lot from you in this conversation that talks a lot about both mentorship and the relationship that you have with others in your life, especially family members and important figures. And I know that from a comedian perspective, Dick Gregory was an important person in your life. And you had referenced in a past interview life-changing conversation you had had with him and it would be great to hear a little bit more about what that conversation was like and how that changed, how you ended up approaching comedy.  [00:37:39] Roy Wood Jr.: I only saw Dick Gregory, I only opened for him twice. And the first time was in Selma at the Bridge Crossing Jubilee. It was a banquet that he and Jesse Jackson were speaking at. And then the other time was in, I opened for him proper in a comedy club in Zanies in Nashville. And he said something that just always resonated with me. You know, I'm butchering the quote, but he said people always ask me, Dick, why you always on the road? Why are you always out of town? And I said, because the battle for justice ain't at my house. And so that always stuck with me in terms of his tenacity right up till the end. You know, he died the way that, that every comedian wants to die and that's with dates on the books. I think it's the biggest compliment that, you know, any comedian can have is to die with still having more work and gigs scheduled because you got to get the message out there. You got to make people laugh. You got to try to heal people. In Dick Gregory's case, you know, he was doing things that were far above and beyond just telling a couple of shuck and jive jokes about police reform. This man was out there really doing the work, you know, concurrent. This man would have had a full itinerary all day and then go do two shows on a Friday night. It's not like he was just posted up in the hotel, watching Maury Povich till 7:30. So, you know, when I look at his career and everything that he did, that was a beautiful thing to see. It was a beautiful thing to see a dude knocking on 80 that was just at a comedy club on a Friday night, and it's 350 people ready to pay him and ready to hear what he has to say. And to be able to still say things that are resonant and that are on the pulse of what people are feeling, you can be funny, you can get away with being funny for a little while, but true career longevity as a comedian, I believe you have to make people feel, you have to give them an emotion. Sooner or later they have to leave feeling a certain way. It's not just a matter of the tactile Xs and Os of did they laugh at the setup Did they laugh at the punchline? Okay, next joke. It's what are you infusing into that person's heart on the backside of this experience that you all had together on stage for an hour. And, you know, I saw Dick Gregory do that twice and Selma was even more amazing 'cause he did it from a podium and I cannot explain to anybody how hard it is to do standup comedy from a podium. Jokes do not go over a podium, lectern, whatever the hell you want to call it don't matter. The jokes don't go over it. The moment you standing at one of them damn things, you look like a preacher and none of your jokes are funny, but Dick Gregory demolished, demolished, it was a good time.  [00:40:19] Dan Runcie: That's special, yeah. He's someone that always stuck out in a unique way with everything that he did. So and I think a lot about that, even with artists or anyone that's performing on stage, if you can still do this when you're 70, 80 years old, that's where the real magic comes. And I know many of the younger artists now want to get there and it's great to see. I think, you know, you're in a generation of comedians that I think are going to be doing the same thing as well.,  [00:40:44] Roy Wood Jr.: Trying to, that's what I'm trying to get to.  [00:40:48] Dan Runcie: All right. Well, before we let you go, we do got to talk about the film that you have coming out, Confess, Fletch out in theaters September 16th. And I have to ask, you're a detective in this film, you're opposite Jon Hamm, is Jon Hamm, a white ally that we could trust in this movie?  [00:41:07] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah, yeah, in the movie. Yeah, I'd say in real life as well. I'll go ahead and hang that on him. No, it's dope. I also had to give a shout-out to our director, Greg Mottola, and Greg, you know, really worked to create something that totally feels different from the bright lights and the big demonstrative jokes that were the eighties Chevy Chase version of this character. And so, you know, it plays right into Jon Hamm's warehouse. I'm just happy. I got to play a cop in Boston and they didn't force me to do a Boston accent 'cause that would've been insulting. That would've been very terrible.  [00:41:39] Dan Runcie: Was that a conversation at all? Did anyone even broach, Hey, should you try to do this? Or should we, 'cause I know that Jon Hamm with The Town and all that stuff, I know he's done it before.  [00:41:48] Roy Wood Jr.: It was breached briefly during my audition and at the audition, they said don't even try it. We've watched a tape on you. I'm like, well, just let me know if you wanted the cop to be from Alabama. I can nail that one, man. [00:42:02] Dan Runcie: Sometimes I feel bad. The ones that they try to do, like, when Anthony Anderson was in The Departed, love Anthony Anderson, but I feel like they try to make everybody in that movie. What was it, Mystic River, I feel like that was another one where they try to have everyone do a Boston accent. I'm like, all right. I don't know, you know. Let's have a few signature characters maybe, and I think everyone else is fine.  [00:42:20] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah. Yeah. It was fine. It was definitely a good time. It was a good shoot, you know I think just murder- mystery- comedy, you know, I think it feels light enough and fun enough in these times. And so, you know, we don't get too woke in it and I know everybody is scared of the woke and the woke mob is coming. A, it's a cop trying to catch a criminal or a guy that he thinks is a criminal. It's a cop trying to solve a murder and a private detective trying to solve the murder as well. So, you know, I think it's a good film.  [00:42:48] Dan Runcie: And we talked a lot in this conversation about streaming and everything releasing there. This is not debuting on streaming, out in theaters, available on demand as well. Did that change to the creation process at all? Or does that change your relationship at all with this movie?  [00:43:05] Roy Wood Jr.: No. I think that it'll be interesting to see how quickly people see it and when and where. You know, I do think that coming out on demand, in addition to theaters, I think it only helps word of mouth and I think it still brings profits for the film itself. So, you know, in that regard, you know, I think it'll be fine. But when you make the movie you're, as an actor, my job is to just make the movie y'all can figure out the rest of that shit after, you know, two months from now in post-production, you can decide how many theaters and blah, blah, blah, and all of that.  [00:43:34] Dan Runcie: Exciting stuff. Well, we'll definitely look out for that, but Roy, it's been a pleasure, man. Thanks for coming on, keeping it real as always. And if people want to follow you and stay in touch with everything you're doing, where can they find you? [00:43:46] Roy Wood Jr.: Oh, it's Roy Wood Jr. I put an @ sign in front, .com on the backside. Also visit me online, my podcast, roysjobfair.com.  [00:43:54] Dan Runcie: Good stuff. Appreciate you, man. Thanks again.  [00:43:56] Roy Wood Jr.: All right, will do. [00:43:58] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 16 Sep 2022 08:00:00 -0000 How Roy Wood Jr. Is Evolving His Comedy full Dan Runcie Returning to Trapital for a second time is comedian Roy Wood Jr. We last spoke in mid-2020 when lockdowns curbed his usual comedy performance routine. On the outside, it might not seem Roy has changed much since our first convo — he’s still a regular on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah — but internally, Roy is amidst another career evolution. Roy made a successful comedic career — three specials on Comedy Central over a five-year span — out of finding unique angles to discuss external events such as news and politics. But now, Roy wants to talk about himself. Spurred by an appearance on PBS’ “Find Your Roots”, Roy is more introspective about the relationship with his father, a civil rights activist, and how it influences raising his own son. How and where Roy delivers this refined message hasn’t been decided yet. For now, Roy is taking time for himself to think through how he’s changed, and so has comedy and the entertainment industry at-large. In our discussion, Roy hinted at some of those major changes. Here’s what we covered: [3:15] The state of live comedy in 2022 [5:32] Roy’s insane performing streak from 1998-2020 [6:27] Why the comedy club isn’t the right venue for Roy right now  [11:45] Comedian expectations have changed  [13:35] Morality vs. profit  [17:05] Roy’s partnerships [18:42] Roy’s criticism of Netflix and streaming [26:27] The new superstar is an assemble cast  [31:08] How Roy chooses comedic topics [34:43] Roy’s most personal joke [35:24] How much does Roy’s son know about his comedy career?  [37:39] How Dick Gregory changed Roy’s life [40:48] Roy starring in Confess, Fletch movie Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Roy Wood Jr., @roywoodjr   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Roy Wood Jr.: You can be funny, you can get away with being funny for a little while, but true career longevity as a comedian, I believe, you have to make people feel, you have to give them an emotion. Sooner or later they have to leave feeling a certain way. It's not just a matter of the tactile Xs and Os of did they laugh at the setup? Did they laugh at the punchline? Okay, next joke. It's what are you infusing into that person's heart on the backside of this experience that you all had together on stage for an hour.   [00:00:36] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:56] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Roy Wood Jr. This is his second time back on the podcast. The first time we recorded a podcast was back in the middle of 2020, middle of the pandemic. And we talked a lot about how the closure of comedy clubs and the closure of everything was affecting his life as a comedian and what he saw the world would be like on the other side of the pandemic. And now we're starting to be here, so it was a great opportunity to check in, hear how things are going for him. And we talked a lot about how the past couple of years have reshaped his perspective on the type of message that he wants to be able to. What are the best venues to do that and how he might change his approach up a little bit in the next few years. We also talked about streaming and what it's been like from his perspective as someone that is acting in movies, acting in TV shows, writing and producing shows as well, and how it's been like navigating these streaming networks, what their goals and incentives are. What his goals and incentives are and what he has seen from others in this space. We also talked about his upcoming movie Confess, Fletch. It's out in theaters on September 16th. It stars Jon Hamm. This is a reboot of the classic Chevy Chase Fletch movies from the eighties. So we talked about what to expect there, what he's excited about and more. Roy's good people, man, plain and simple. If you listen to the last conversation that him and I had, you know that if you've watched anything he's ever done on The Daily Show, ever seen him perform standup, you know that as well. Here's our conversation. Hope you enjoy it. [00:02:30] Dan Runcie: All right. We are joined today by a return guest to the Trapital podcast, the one, the only, Roy Wood Jr. How are you doing man?  [00:02:38] Roy Wood Jr.: You're back. I'm back. You're welcome. You're all welcome. I apologize in advance for my voice. There's things that happened this week that I did not plan on happening. And this is the result. It was either this or cancel, and I didn't want to cancel it.  [00:02:54] Dan Runcie: No, I appreciate you. Hey, it's either this, or, you know, this is part of getting back on the road, right, 'cause I feel like the last time we talked, we were talking about what the other side of this whole pandemic was going to look like and what it was going to be like for comics returning to the stage. And now you're in it. What has it been like to return to the stage and with everything?  [00:03:15] Roy Wood Jr.: What's wild is that I can't tell you too much. You know in 2022 I've only done four or five road gigs. Most of my gigs this year were COVID makeup dates from '21. So I've been blessed enough to be able to, you know, have a podcast that I'm able to do for myself, and sell a couple of scripts, and just create other revenue streams for myself, when the pressure to go back out on the road wasn't there. Also, creatively, I'm just in a different spot, bro. And I know that the stuff that I want to talk about, I don't know if the comedy club is the right place. It's part of the process creatively, but I just haven't been in a rush to get back out to figure it out yet, you know? It's been a really weird year for me in that the thing that I've done for 23 years is the thing that I did the least this year. And you know, that part of it's been really odd. It seems like the clubs are doing well though. You know, I still talk to a lot of comedians that are in the clubs because I'm still kind of that on the outside looking in. So I see all the comics who are touring, there's guys who I didn't know were headliners yet, but apparently, they are now. They're out there, they're doing their thing as well. So, you know, I'd say, all in all, it seems like the comedy club model got through it okay. But I don't know how sustainable it is as an entertainer to continue to be a part of this standup comedy model. You know, a lot of these new cats, you know, they're finding their own venues and they're figuring out their own way through the internet to get shit popping for themselves. But, you know, I will say this about standup. Since the shutdown, this idea of having one magical five-minute set on late night, and that being the thing that definitively becomes the new pivot point in your career, the likelihood of that happening is definitely less and less as the years go by. [00:05:09] Dan Runcie: Interesting. I could only imagine how big of a life change it is for you. I remember you saying in the past, from when you started this once out of every 10 days, you were doing something on the road, right? Whether it was a standup show or something, and for you to be doing this completely different now, and just thinking about what the adapting is a complete life change, let alone anything on the business side of things. [00:05:32] Roy Wood Jr.: Until the shutdown, until a federally mandated government shutdown, from 1998, I'd never gone more than 10 days without performing, period.  [00:05:41] Dan Runcie: It's huge.  [00:05:43] Roy Wood Jr.: And I've gone months. I look forward to it for months at a time. I don't have another gig right now. And I have a corporate gig in three months and I'm like, perfect, perfect because it gives me the time, it gives your brain the time to settle. I can only imagine, you know, when you look at guys like Chris Rock, who have said, you know, you need time to go away and live and see the world and experience things and have something to come back and report on. I understand that now. [00:06:13] Dan Runcie: You also mentioned too, that there's material that you want to talk about, topics that you want to discuss that the stage may not be the best place for that. What are the things you want to discuss and why isn't the stage the best format?  [00:06:27] Roy Wood Jr.: It's not the stage it's comedy club specifically. Like, alright, so I did Finding Your Roots over the shutdown and found out a lot of new truths about my father and, you know, some stuff on my mother's side, but as a father, myself, I often feel this attachment to my dad and then looking at how my father lost his dad when he was four. My granddaddy was gone when my dad was four. So when I think about that type of stuff, how that will inform the type of man that I will be to my son, and just family, and bonds, and the men who raise me in my father's absence. And there's jokes and there's stories, but as I figure out what the heart of the story is first before I make it funny, I don't know if the comedy club is always the right place for that because the comedy club, motherfucker, we want the jokes. I've been drinking. Me and my wife got dressed. I came here to be happy. You up there talking about your dead daddy and trying to figure out what that means for your son, motherfucker, I don't want to hear all that shit without jokes. So I think there's a place to go and develop that, you know, New York has a lot of different places, but also I think it's important for me to do my standup in venues other than comedy clubs because I think that sometimes, depending on the venue, you know, jazz club or black box, little theater or some improv house, I believe it changes how the material is received. You know, it changes how people listen to you sometimes. This is a terrible analogy and it's not going to be a perfect analogy, but it's like how food tastes better in church. You know, like when your grandma will pull a peppermint out of her purse, and she gave you that peppermint in the middle of a long ass church service, and that peppermint tasted like a pizza hu meat lovers. Like, it was just an amazing, so where we are sometimes can change the experience and the connection to the material. And so as I start mining this material, I'm going to have to figure out the best places to put it all together 'cause I feel like I'm teetering into some one-person show territory. And, you know, every comedian that I know that did a one-man show, you know, they didn't build it in a comedy club. You can sure present it at a comedy club, but you cannot build it there. That's why I've been meaning to talk to Jerrod to figure out where he built up Rothaniel 'cause, you know, that one was definitely a blend of the two skill sets.  [00:08:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a good example of it. Just how he was able to be so raw, be so personal and different than anything he had done before leading up to this. I got to imagine, too, that part of this may also be linked with just the evolution of comedy and some of the other topics you've talked about recently and how people, especially nowadays, are looking for comedians to be truthsayers or they're also looking for them to be the ones that can tell them certain messages and how there's some people that believe that should be the case, but there's others that, I know you said this before, that it shouldn't necessarily be that way. So I feel like there's some of that that could also be potentially in line with some of the broader feeling about what is the best message to communicate where.  [00:09:39] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah. And I think once you figure that out as a performer, the people will come find you. You know, I don't really think it matters where you go once people love you, they will follow you to wherever, you know, so I think that's it. They went to a farm to see Chappelle. So you can come up with different venues, you know, once you have the ideas that are worth hearing. So it's my job first to get the ideas together. [00:10:02] Dan Runcie: Right, yeah. There's something about that comedy club setting, like you said. You're going with your significant other, you got the two-drink minimum. No, like I'm trying to get these laughs out that just doesn't, that works there. That doesn't necessarily translate elsewhere that could obviously work to your benefit going elsewhere.  [00:10:18] Roy Wood Jr.: You can get deep in a comedy club, but you really have to stack the show properly. The people have to know who they're coming to see. And I'm still a comedian where, you know, with The Daily Show, unfortunately, this is a lot of people's first discovery point for me. So you don't know the previous 15, 16 years before I got with Trevor. So, you know, even those people come to a show and they want me to be a little more political than what I am on this show. And I'm like, sorry, that's not who I am. That's not what I do. So even within the construct of just regular standup, they still want something more specific. So, you know, it's about just figuring out, you know, the right places for that. But if you put that person in a setting they've never been to before, well, now you don't know what to expect. And I just think it just changes how you see and analyze things a little bit. You know, I'm going to try to experiment with, you know, different venues in '23. [00:11:15] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. You mentioned the politics piece of it, too, and just , given what you and Trevor are doing on The Daily Show, people coming to you for that. But I assume part of it also is channeling back to that truthsayer thing and seeing some of the things that Chappelle and others have talked about. Do you think that the way the current climate is that when people are expecting you to speak on these things, do you think that this changes and continues to evolve, or do you feel like this is kind of the place that things are right now?  [00:11:45] Roy Wood Jr.: I don't think that the role of comedian has changed. I think that the expectations of a comedian have changed. Some for the better some for the worse, but I can't think of any one standup comedian that I know that is, like, set and looked themselves in the mirror, okay, today these jokes are going to change everyone's and change the world. You know, comics are more outspoken. Comics are more, you know, quicker to say what they feel on stage, especially the young ones, which is good. But I don't feel like when people say this climate, the climate is about the people reacting to what the comedian said, but most of these comedians that people get mad at, they've been saying shit like this for a long as time. But they're groups of people that have decided, you know what? I want to hear that shit no more. So they got something to say and they got a right to that. But I think at the end of the day, I don't think comedians have changed. I mean, Louis C.K. Back, he's cooking. Chappelle got another three special re-up from Netflix after all of the outrage or whatever. So that should show you where the corporations stand. And for as long as you are an entertainer that has an audience of some sort, you know, they're going to find a place for you regardless of whether or not that pisses off another group of people. You know, that's just kind of where we've always existed as a society. It's capitalism, baby.  [00:13:10] Dan Runcie: Does part of you see someone like, let's take Chappelle, 'cause you had mentioned him, him still getting these deals even after the backlash or even after the response. Does some of that almost feel like, okay, we're not necessarily just responding to what people may get mad at, there's still clearly an opportunity or there's still people that want to hear what we have to say, even if the expectations from our viewers have changed?  [00:13:35] Roy Wood Jr.: I think that as a society, you know, it is very difficult to place the expectation of morality and profit on a corporation. Most corporations have to choose between one or the other. And when I say profitability, you know, we're talking gross levels of profitability. I don't think many companies care to a certain degree about people in general. You know, this is bigger than just entertainment and whether or not you can say something that pisses off a group of people. Delta Airlines just started paying their flight attendants for when the plane doors open and they're boarding passengers. It's nothing moral. There's nothing moral about that, but it's definitely profitable. And only when it became embarrassing, which is not profitable, that they become a company with morals. If you can't attach profitability to morality, more often than not, you're not going to find a corporation that's going to make moves like that. I'm not surprised that Netflix gave Chappelle more specials for the amount of people that were mad at it, clearly, somebody was watching it and this is Netflix. Netflix cancels shit while you are in the middle of watching the episode. The second episode of a 10-episode show will come out and Netflix about, yes, cancel. What? Damn, can I finish? Season one? Nah, we've already looked at the metrics of the first episode that tells us everything we need to know. So, you know, that's a company that, you know, like people say that, oh, it's a FU to the LGBTQI community. It's definitely a slight to them for them to rebook Chappelle after they had said what they said and everybody had protested, whatever, whatever. But also Netflix is a company and that's about profit, which means somebody was watching Chappelle. And that's all they care about. That's all most companies care about is eyeballs. So, you know, unless you're getting into just straight-up criminalistic behavior of someone, morality versus profit is always going to be a tug of war that most corporations, they just do not have the heart that people do. [00:15:34] Dan Runcie: That's real. That's real. I mean, and even thinking about Chappelle specifically, because of how Netflix tracks the performance, a lot of the backlash likely helps those episodes because you have some that are tuning in because they want to hear what he has to say. But you have others tuning in because now they want to see or hear what he said that is causing all of these headlines. [00:15:55] Roy Wood Jr.: And that's all Netflix cares about. So the surprise on the backside is that can you believe this company didn't care? Yes, I can absolutely believe this company didn't care because more often than not most companies don't care. And that goes into women's rights, that goes into race, and George Floyd, and every company putting up black lives matter, whatever the fuck on the top of their website, and black squares and Instagram. So, you know, when it comes to a bevy of social, it is just, you know, it's interesting because corporations are now rocking a heart because now being moral. if it's profitable and cool, they'll jump on board. But if it's not, they're kind of like, eh, we'll see. [00:16:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. You've experienced this, you've worked with a number of these networks and seen the decisions that you've made. How has this impacted you at all with any of the partnerships you've made? I know you have the deal with Comedy Central that you've had. I know you had a special that came out with them, but we'll talk about that in a second. But how has that been with regards to you, and your specials, and your content, and how that works for you, both with the things that you want to do with the networks, and how you're able to still produce and create?  [00:17:05] Roy Wood Jr.: You know, from the standup side, you know, it's fine. We're Comedy Central. You know, we had a, I call it The Trilogy. I had my first three-hour specials with Comedy Central and they were good. And now, as I think about what that next block of content will be, you know, we'll figure out where that's supposed to go once I figure out creatively, what the fuck it's going to be? But, you know, on the scripted side and selling scripts, I've been very blessed to have opportunities to sell stuff, not just the Comedy Central, but you know, Fox and NBC in the last couple of years and HBO Max as well. but the thing is that it's very difficult to predict how COVID is going to affect a network's creative strategy when it comes to scripted, you know. Like scripted is, that's where the glory is. That's where the fun is, right? But, you know, I had one script, Jefferson County: Probation. Aaron Magruder was my, you know, executive producer and co-creator on it. And as soon as we got the script together and shot the pilot, there was a merger between Viacom and CBS and they changed their strategy. And then right after that COVID hit and they changed their strategy again. And at both of those mile markers, scripted shows were the first things to get cut from the budget because they're the most expensive. So the pressure to be profitable fast or to have a cultural impact fast is greater now on the content that, you know, that we have because the thing that I don't like about Netflix is that what streaming has removed from our zeitgeist is the concept of a cult hit. You know, like a cult hit TV show. Cult is just a nice way of saying underground and not a lot of people watch it, but the ones who watch it really, really love it. But there are shows that sometimes do not pop until season three. Sometimes season four and it takes people a while to get on board, but then you have a network that has creative execs who want to stay in that pocket. And now we believe in this show. We're going to give it another season, give it another season, give it another season. This don't happen with black shows. I'm talking about Arrested Development and you know, shit like that. And maybe The Wire, if you want to count that as a cult hit. But I feel like The Wire was more by the time they got to season four, everybody was on board, but at that point, HBO was like, wrap it up. Streaming, the analytics that are attached to streaming companies deciding whether or not a scripted show lives or dies has eliminated the ability for certain shows to germinate over a year or two, and really have an opportunity to find their audience, get the word of mouth. Everything is now, now, now. And so because of that, you know, where scripted is concerned, you have to have an idea that pops now, that sails, now that gets on TV now. And if you're really lucky, it also touches the vein of what is happening in the now. That's why Abbott Elementary is what it is. You have a great creator. You have a great writer. It's well cast, it's shot beautifully, it's funny, but also educators are at the forefront of a lot of the bullshit that's been going on the last two years. It's perfectly on the pulse. It's perfectly on the pulse. So, you know, word of mouth isn't enough. You also have to have the numbers. And so, you know, I'd say that for me, when it comes to coming up with scripted content, you almost have to find something that lives. You have to have the idea that lives at multiple intersections, because if it's just a fun, cool, nice idea. That might not be enough anymore. That's 2015 ideology.  [00:20:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The closest thing that seems like it's comparable to that cult classic of discovering it seasons later is when something gets picked up from a smaller network and then gets put on one of these big streamers. For instance, I'm thinking about South Side. Season Two. It's on HBO Max. And I think that made a lot of people that weren't watching South Side Season One discover it.  [00:20:57] Roy Wood Jr.: Correct. Like, there's a show that was on in Canada that came over to Netflix called Kim's Convenience and that was a fucking hilarious sitcom that somebody like me, I would've never discovered had it not come over to, but it had to live over in Canada for two years. But you need execs who care about the IP and care about the idea. And a lot of these execs are under the same pressure as the creatives. You better be bringing this studio, some hit shows and you better be signing and buying scripts from the best creators 'cause if you aren't and we don't have a hit, if we're not getting nominations, and we're not getting talked about it's your ass, too. So if you have an exec that is betting on a show, that's just has midling numbers versus just canceling it, and bringing in something new, there's also job security in that for them as well. And I think that's why, you know, to a degree, you know, you don't see shows that get an opportunity to build and grow their audience, either you a hit out the gate or you got a target on your back.  [00:21:57] Dan Runcie: The other challenging thing about this is knowing what those numbers are and whether or not the streaming services are sharing them with you. From your perspective as someone that is doing the scripts, selling shows, do you feel like you're getting any true quantitative aspect to be able to compare and say, okay, I see what I would've been able to hit or what the target is or how that compares, 'cause that's the piece that feels so non-transparent at all right now. [00:22:26] Roy Wood Jr.: That part of the game is still above my pay grade because I haven't gotten anything that's gone to series. I've sold a bunch of scripts that have all gone to pilot and most have gone to pilot at least. But even with the stuff over at Comedy Central, you know, we're on basic cable. So it's Nielsen. So, you know, that's more above board than companies giving their streaming numbers. But I wouldn't even be able to speak to that, unfortunately. I hope to be able to one day, but not today.  [00:22:51] Dan Runcie: Yeah. There was some interview I had seen it was Steven Soderbergh or someone like that. And he was like, I have no idea how well these movies do. They literally just tell me, yes, this was good. You can make another one or no, we're all set. Thanks. And he's just like, okay, then that's when he decides to make another movie.  [00:23:08] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah, that part of it, yeah, you are totally flying blind as a creator. You know, at some point there's going to have to be some equity in this, but, hey, sooner or later, all of these streaming sites are just going to keep merging and folding into one another. It's like airlines in the eighties. Go Google up how many different airline carriers we had in the eighties. And then here we are now with United, Delta, Southwest, JetBlue, and, what, American. Spirit and JetBlue emerging. So, okay, so you'll have, what, four or five major carriers? In the eighties, there was like, well, over 30. I could Google it real quick, but I know for sure I can name 15 airline companies from the eighties and I bet you the numbers are higher than that.  [00:23:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's that whole industry. Even the big ones have done so many consolidations, even in the past 20, 25 years, they've done a bunch. It's been wild.  [00:23:59] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah. My point is that all those streamers are going to eventually all keep folding into each other and it's going to be basic cable all over again.  [00:24:05] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. And I think, too, even how they're making decisions is starting to stand out. I'm sure you saw the Batgirl news when the movie's done, they just decide not to run that thing and just put it as a write-off. That's not going to be the last time that happens.  [00:24:20] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah. It's literally cheaper to not release this because the landscape keeps changing, bro. My heart goes out to that whole team. They are crushed about that. You know, as they should, but you work hard on a film, spend 90 million, at least you could do is put it out. But, you know, I just think that, you know, corporations like it's, again, it's profit. The right thing to do would've been to release the Batgirl film, but if projections and analytics have already told you that this film more than likely will underperform in the top tier markets where we need it to perform above money, profitability, it ain't profitable. Morality ain't profitable, man. So fuck them folks. We ain't going to release the film. Oh, but we should, they worked really hard. It's a black woman get to be black. We don't give a fuck. Cancel it. That's how a lot of places think, man. And you know, as they say, the game is the game, but that don't make it right. That don't make it hurt less. I just think that that's where a lot of companies are coming from, you know. They want bankable stars or an idea that's high concept and easy and quick and catches on. I still think that, you know, when you look at a show like Squid Game, which was such a breakout, you know, hit for Netflix, I think that the new superstar is the ensemble. You know, if you can't get a single star to carry your thing, then you need a great idea with a bunch of people nobody knows anything about. And then that's how you get people to invest, get people to invest in the concept and not the face. [00:25:47] Dan Runcie: Interesting. I can see that because I feel like there's so many big-name movies that you see on Netflix and they have all of these actors that you would consider to be A-list, but they come and go. But yeah, the magic of Squid Game is that it didn't have that, but it had this fascinating topic that people just wanted to have more and more of. It created a bunch of memes. And I'm sure not only they're trying to create a sequel, they're trying feel like, okay, what is the next thing like that that's going to take off. And sometimes it's random. I mean, I don't know if people thought that Queen's Gambit was going to take off the way that it did or any of those things. I feel like Netflix, especially, it feels like it could be very, you know, we'll see what happens. [00:26:27] Roy Wood Jr.: I mean, when you look at shows that have sustainability and have expanded their universes, like Power, there isn't a single actor in Power that is such a behemoth. Like, and I don't say that as a slight, it's an extremely talented cast of wonderful A-list actors. But when you look at how they try to anchor a show around one person, where Power is, it's always been a universe of people all working together. Of course, you have Mary J and Method Man in it, but it's not Mary J and Method Man alone to, it's not Joseph Sikora alone. Abbott is an ensemble cast. It's not a singular person. And so I think that concept will, I don't know, man. Why do you think people get so excited when Idris Elba comes back to do another round of Luther? It's 'cause, oh, my God, it's him. You get Idris every scene being badass, but he's busy, he's got movies to do and stuff. So I just think creatively, we're probably in a world where, you know, by and large, I feel like we'll just see more and more, you know, larger groups of people unless you have a network willing to pour millions of dollars into one person. You know, I don't know. [00:27:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think, too, we talked a little bit about how this is part of the evolution. Part of it, too, they want to have something that's quick to capture people's attention. And I think some of this has impacted how comics, and you as well, have talked about how it may approach your shows and how you're delivering certain information. And I know you've talked a lot about both the balance of having the timely topics, of talking about something that's current versus having those evergreen things that you need to, or you want to be able to tap into. And I feel like, you know, why actually Imperfect Messenger, you did a good job of that with just being able to balance things, you know, whether you're talking about current topics or just evergreen things. How conscious is that when you're thinking about the topics that you want to cover in a special? [00:28:22] Roy Wood Jr.: Well, for Imperfect Messenger, my comedic philosophy up until now, it has changed now 'cause I want to talk about myself and not the world. But the creative excavation process of a joke for me boils down to what is everybody saying about this topic. And is there anything new I can say? And if the answer is yes, then I continue down that road of exploration and then I put that joke on stage and then the best jokes win. As I like to call it, those are the jokes that make the 25-man roster, like baseball. Like, these are the start. 12- man, if you want to go basketball. So, you know, if the argument is A and B, is there a C side to it that I can introduce? Like if you look at my second special, No One Loves You, where I talk about the national anthem and the debate at the time with Kaepernick was should people stand for the anthem or should you take a knee? And my angle was why is that song the anthem? That song sucks. And then an exploration into what songs could replace it. What, if you won't stand for that song, is there a song that people would stand for? And so that's kind of my approach, you know, to a lot of this. You know, and if we're going to talk about Imperfect Messenger and we talk about policing and, you know, the issues that lie in policing in America now. Okay, fine. It's going to take bureaucracy and a lot of bullshit to try and get that changed. But in the meantime, in the interim, what are the small things cops could do to help? And then the joke is just essentially, a run of those things. You know, every now and then just let a black person, someone who should have gone to jail, let them go. If there's Stop Talking in Code on the radio, I forget my material. Like, literally the night I do a special, that material just turns into Thanos dust in my brain. But for me. That's how I've always tried to approach standup and my material rather than just arguing from the conventional positions that have already been presented to everybody because if nothing more, I want you to leave with a different perspective. I'm not trying to be right or wrong. I am just trying to make sure that you get something that you hadn't considered.  [00:30:26] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I always got that impression. I feel like that's a good example. I also think about, from Imperfect Messenger, your piece about Leonardo DiCaprio and Django Unchained and even though that movie, you know, I think like eight years ago at that point, still everyone knows exactly who you're talking about. It's timely. It's not dated in this way of a comedian still referencing, you know, pop culture from the nineties, but you have it. And you're able to weave that in with everything that's happening. And I feel like even though that was a movie that was a few years older, you're still relating it to all the topics we're talking about now, like allyship and all those things. So I feel like people may not see the subtleties, but when you really break it down, you can see how much goes into constructing a good joke. [00:31:08] Roy Wood Jr.: I appreciate that, man, 'cause you get paranoid about that type of stuff, 'cause you don't want to be dated, but are there evergreen examples of a point that I'm trying to make that could help me parallel and boil this down, you know, a little bit more? You know, that special was also very interesting because the story that I told near the end about a childhood friend that's in prison for the murder of a person I know, but, you know, he was the getaway driver. You know, like that was a joke. He was a getaway driver in a robbery that turned into a murder is what actually happened in real life. And so he never went in the store, but in Alabama, the law is set up where everybody gets the murder charge. If a murder happens while your crime is being committed. And that joke was set up in a way where it was really about him and the sentencing and how it's all messed up and blah, blah, blah. But you know, there's part of me that's, you know, I love Birmingham. I love Birmingham, Alabama. I love the people there. And I've tried, you know, for the entirety of my career since 2001, when I came home and started at the radio station and started doing stuff in the community with the radio station. I've always tried to be a person that's of the community. And so that joke carries a different level of responsibility when I'm home because everyone remembers that murder. Everyone remembers Mr. Muhammad being murdered at the Music-N-More store and that man was a pillar of the community. So if I'm going to speak on his legacy, there's got to be balance to that. And you know what. I probably should reach out to his family before I put this on national television. And so when I did that and I had a conversation with his son, it completely shifted what that joke was and it made it the right version of what that joke needed to be. And that's the thing that I really enjoy. And it's part of really what's triggered so much more of where I am now creatively because that just wasn't an A, B, and C observation. This was a legitimate issue that I was having within myself of feeling like my friend should not be in prison for the rest of his life for being an accomplice, but also feeling empathy for the family, because I knew them. Like, they carry my CD and I'll spare the story here, but in the special, you know, I tell the story of my relationship with this store as an independent music artist, like this store supported local rappers and, like, they help people kickstart their career. So it's not as cut and dry. So when you look at a law, like, the one that Alabama has set up and then you start talking to the victims, then you start understanding why these laws are in place. And so that will always be my favorite joke isn't the word, but it's definitely the most honest joke that I've told on television to this point.  [00:34:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Well, definitely link it to this one to make sure that people can see it, that or listening to this episode right now and just bringing it all full circle. I can see how this is informing the type of content or the type of message that you want to be able to push forward, whether you're telling it in a different setting, whether you're finding new ways to tell it, it has been really cool to see how so many of our favorite comedians have been able to find new ways to be able to share different messages or even things that they may have to give a little piece of and seen that that's where they want to move more into for the next stage of their career. So I'm excited for that.  [00:34:43] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah, it's going to be fun. You know, it's going to be fun, talking more about my father, my relationship with him talking about, you know, raising my own child. My son is six. So you know, that is definitely a new and scary place to be as a parent. But yeah, yeah, I'm excited about what's down the road, but I'm just not in a position anymore where I feel like I need to rush. You know, I was very blessed, but also probably very crazy. I put out three one-hour specials over the span of five years. That's a pretty healthy clip, you know? So I feel like I should go sit my ass down somewhere for a second and really think about, you know, what it is I want to say and what I'm trying to do.  [00:35:24] Dan Runcie: What's your son's relationship with your comedy? Is it something that he goes and checks back in looking back at old clips, just to see the history of where you came to things, or is he not allowed to look at all that just yet? [00:35:37] Roy Wood Jr.: He might catch me on the couch every blue moon watching old episodes of The Daily Show. Like, I binge our show every week, 'cause I don't get to always watch it every night 'cause of whatever's going on. So he may pop in and see me on television. Like, if you ask my son what his father does for a living, he'll say my dad works on TV and he's a comedian. Like, he knows that much. He's been with me to sound checks early in the afternoon for, you know, theater shows and stuff. But the idea of bringing him around this and exposing him to it for the sake of this is what you're going to do, this's a family business. Nah, not really. I'd like for him to see some of the cameramen and the editors and the computer stuff. I don't think my son will be a comedian because he has two loving parents, which is already the worst thing that could happen to a comedian. To be a good comedian, you can't have both of your parents love you. What trauma you got? We want to know what's wrong with you.  [00:36:32] Dan Runcie: Right. What is the source of the comedy then? [00:36:35] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah, so we're trying to raise him as pain-free as possible. So I think that's going to make him ineligible for most comedy clubs.  [00:36:41] Dan Runcie: maybe he'll go back and look at the old stuff. He'll go back to that. You know, the Last Comic Standing run, then he'll come back to see, okay, all right. I can see this trajectory here. I can see what dad's been up to.  [00:36:52] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah. I mean, he's funny. He has a sense of humor. He's cognizant of that, but it's not something I encourage or discourage. It's just, you know, whatever you feel like doing today, bro. Then that's what you're going to do. Like right now he's into the BattleBots. So let's watch and do things that are related to mechanics and STEM and see where that goes. [00:37:10] Dan Runcie: I'm hearing a lot from you in this conversation that talks a lot about both mentorship and the relationship that you have with others in your life, especially family members and important figures. And I know that from a comedian perspective, Dick Gregory was an important person in your life. And you had referenced in a past interview life-changing conversation you had had with him and it would be great to hear a little bit more about what that conversation was like and how that changed, how you ended up approaching comedy.  [00:37:39] Roy Wood Jr.: I only saw Dick Gregory, I only opened for him twice. And the first time was in Selma at the Bridge Crossing Jubilee. It was a banquet that he and Jesse Jackson were speaking at. And then the other time was in, I opened for him proper in a comedy club in Zanies in Nashville. And he said something that just always resonated with me. You know, I'm butchering the quote, but he said people always ask me, Dick, why you always on the road? Why are you always out of town? And I said, because the battle for justice ain't at my house. And so that always stuck with me in terms of his tenacity right up till the end. You know, he died the way that, that every comedian wants to die and that's with dates on the books. I think it's the biggest compliment that, you know, any comedian can have is to die with still having more work and gigs scheduled because you got to get the message out there. You got to make people laugh. You got to try to heal people. In Dick Gregory's case, you know, he was doing things that were far above and beyond just telling a couple of shuck and jive jokes about police reform. This man was out there really doing the work, you know, concurrent. This man would have had a full itinerary all day and then go do two shows on a Friday night. It's not like he was just posted up in the hotel, watching Maury Povich till 7:30. So, you know, when I look at his career and everything that he did, that was a beautiful thing to see. It was a beautiful thing to see a dude knocking on 80 that was just at a comedy club on a Friday night, and it's 350 people ready to pay him and ready to hear what he has to say. And to be able to still say things that are resonant and that are on the pulse of what people are feeling, you can be funny, you can get away with being funny for a little while, but true career longevity as a comedian, I believe you have to make people feel, you have to give them an emotion. Sooner or later they have to leave feeling a certain way. It's not just a matter of the tactile Xs and Os of did they laugh at the setup Did they laugh at the punchline? Okay, next joke. It's what are you infusing into that person's heart on the backside of this experience that you all had together on stage for an hour. And, you know, I saw Dick Gregory do that twice and Selma was even more amazing 'cause he did it from a podium and I cannot explain to anybody how hard it is to do standup comedy from a podium. Jokes do not go over a podium, lectern, whatever the hell you want to call it don't matter. The jokes don't go over it. The moment you standing at one of them damn things, you look like a preacher and none of your jokes are funny, but Dick Gregory demolished, demolished, it was a good time.  [00:40:19] Dan Runcie: That's special, yeah. He's someone that always stuck out in a unique way with everything that he did. So and I think a lot about that, even with artists or anyone that's performing on stage, if you can still do this when you're 70, 80 years old, that's where the real magic comes. And I know many of the younger artists now want to get there and it's great to see. I think, you know, you're in a generation of comedians that I think are going to be doing the same thing as well.,  [00:40:44] Roy Wood Jr.: Trying to, that's what I'm trying to get to.  [00:40:48] Dan Runcie: All right. Well, before we let you go, we do got to talk about the film that you have coming out, Confess, Fletch out in theaters September 16th. And I have to ask, you're a detective in this film, you're opposite Jon Hamm, is Jon Hamm, a white ally that we could trust in this movie?  [00:41:07] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah, yeah, in the movie. Yeah, I'd say in real life as well. I'll go ahead and hang that on him. No, it's dope. I also had to give a shout-out to our director, Greg Mottola, and Greg, you know, really worked to create something that totally feels different from the bright lights and the big demonstrative jokes that were the eighties Chevy Chase version of this character. And so, you know, it plays right into Jon Hamm's warehouse. I'm just happy. I got to play a cop in Boston and they didn't force me to do a Boston accent 'cause that would've been insulting. That would've been very terrible.  [00:41:39] Dan Runcie: Was that a conversation at all? Did anyone even broach, Hey, should you try to do this? Or should we, 'cause I know that Jon Hamm with The Town and all that stuff, I know he's done it before.  [00:41:48] Roy Wood Jr.: It was breached briefly during my audition and at the audition, they said don't even try it. We've watched a tape on you. I'm like, well, just let me know if you wanted the cop to be from Alabama. I can nail that one, man. [00:42:02] Dan Runcie: Sometimes I feel bad. The ones that they try to do, like, when Anthony Anderson was in The Departed, love Anthony Anderson, but I feel like they try to make everybody in that movie. What was it, Mystic River, I feel like that was another one where they try to have everyone do a Boston accent. I'm like, all right. I don't know, you know. Let's have a few signature characters maybe, and I think everyone else is fine.  [00:42:20] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah. Yeah. It was fine. It was definitely a good time. It was a good shoot, you know I think just murder- mystery- comedy, you know, I think it feels light enough and fun enough in these times. And so, you know, we don't get too woke in it and I know everybody is scared of the woke and the woke mob is coming. A, it's a cop trying to catch a criminal or a guy that he thinks is a criminal. It's a cop trying to solve a murder and a private detective trying to solve the murder as well. So, you know, I think it's a good film.  [00:42:48] Dan Runcie: And we talked a lot in this conversation about streaming and everything releasing there. This is not debuting on streaming, out in theaters, available on demand as well. Did that change to the creation process at all? Or does that change your relationship at all with this movie?  [00:43:05] Roy Wood Jr.: No. I think that it'll be interesting to see how quickly people see it and when and where. You know, I do think that coming out on demand, in addition to theaters, I think it only helps word of mouth and I think it still brings profits for the film itself. So, you know, in that regard, you know, I think it'll be fine. But when you make the movie you're, as an actor, my job is to just make the movie y'all can figure out the rest of that shit after, you know, two months from now in post-production, you can decide how many theaters and blah, blah, blah, and all of that.  [00:43:34] Dan Runcie: Exciting stuff. Well, we'll definitely look out for that, but Roy, it's been a pleasure, man. Thanks for coming on, keeping it real as always. And if people want to follow you and stay in touch with everything you're doing, where can they find you? [00:43:46] Roy Wood Jr.: Oh, it's Roy Wood Jr. I put an @ sign in front, .com on the backside. Also visit me online, my podcast, roysjobfair.com.  [00:43:54] Dan Runcie: Good stuff. Appreciate you, man. Thanks again.  [00:43:56] Roy Wood Jr.: All right, will do. [00:43:58] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Returning to Trapital for a second time is comedian Roy Wood Jr. We last spoke in mid-2020 when lockdowns curbed his usual comedy performance routine. On the outside, it might not seem Roy has changed much since our first convo — he’s still a regular on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah — but internally, Roy is amidst another career evolution.


Roy made a successful comedic career — three specials on Comedy Central over a five-year span — out of finding unique angles to discuss external events such as news and politics. But now, Roy wants to talk about himself. Spurred by an appearance on PBS’ “Find Your Roots”, Roy is more introspective about the relationship with his father, a civil rights activist, and how it influences raising his own son.


How and where Roy delivers this refined message hasn’t been decided yet. For now, Roy is taking time for himself to think through how he’s changed, and so has comedy and the entertainment industry at-large. In our discussion, Roy hinted at some of those major changes. Here’s what we covered:


[3:15] The state of live comedy in 2022

[5:32] Roy’s insane performing streak from 1998-2020

[6:27] Why the comedy club isn’t the right venue for Roy right now 

[11:45] Comedian expectations have changed 

[13:35] Morality vs. profit 

[17:05] Roy’s partnerships

[18:42] Roy’s criticism of Netflix and streaming

[26:27] The new superstar is an assemble cast 

[31:08] How Roy chooses comedic topics

[34:43] Roy’s most personal joke

[35:24] How much does Roy’s son know about his comedy career? 

[37:39] How Dick Gregory changed Roy’s life

[40:48] Roy starring in Confess, Fletch movie



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Roy Wood Jr., @roywoodjr


 

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TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Roy Wood Jr.: You can be funny, you can get away with being funny for a little while, but true career longevity as a comedian, I believe, you have to make people feel, you have to give them an emotion. Sooner or later they have to leave feeling a certain way. It's not just a matter of the tactile Xs and Os of did they laugh at the setup? Did they laugh at the punchline? Okay, next joke. It's what are you infusing into that person's heart on the backside of this experience that you all had together on stage for an hour.  

[00:00:36] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 

[00:00:56] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Roy Wood Jr. This is his second time back on the podcast. The first time we recorded a podcast was back in the middle of 2020, middle of the pandemic. And we talked a lot about how the closure of comedy clubs and the closure of everything was affecting his life as a comedian and what he saw the world would be like on the other side of the pandemic. And now we're starting to be here, so it was a great opportunity to check in, hear how things are going for him. And we talked a lot about how the past couple of years have reshaped his perspective on the type of message that he wants to be able to. What are the best venues to do that and how he might change his approach up a little bit in the next few years. We also talked about streaming and what it's been like from his perspective as someone that is acting in movies, acting in TV shows, writing and producing shows as well, and how it's been like navigating these streaming networks, what their goals and incentives are. What his goals and incentives are and what he has seen from others in this space. We also talked about his upcoming movie Confess, Fletch. It's out in theaters on September 16th. It stars Jon Hamm. This is a reboot of the classic Chevy Chase Fletch movies from the eighties. So we talked about what to expect there, what he's excited about and more. Roy's good people, man, plain and simple. If you listen to the last conversation that him and I had, you know that if you've watched anything he's ever done on The Daily Show, ever seen him perform standup, you know that as well. Here's our conversation. Hope you enjoy it.

[00:02:30] Dan Runcie: All right. We are joined today by a return guest to the Trapital podcast, the one, the only, Roy Wood Jr. How are you doing man? 

[00:02:38] Roy Wood Jr.: You're back. I'm back. You're welcome. You're all welcome. I apologize in advance for my voice. There's things that happened this week that I did not plan on happening. And this is the result. It was either this or cancel, and I didn't want to cancel it. 

[00:02:54] Dan Runcie: No, I appreciate you. Hey, it's either this, or, you know, this is part of getting back on the road, right, 'cause I feel like the last time we talked, we were talking about what the other side of this whole pandemic was going to look like and what it was going to be like for comics returning to the stage. And now you're in it. What has it been like to return to the stage and with everything? 

[00:03:15] Roy Wood Jr.: What's wild is that I can't tell you too much. You know in 2022 I've only done four or five road gigs. Most of my gigs this year were COVID makeup dates from '21. So I've been blessed enough to be able to, you know, have a podcast that I'm able to do for myself, and sell a couple of scripts, and just create other revenue streams for myself, when the pressure to go back out on the road wasn't there. Also, creatively, I'm just in a different spot, bro. And I know that the stuff that I want to talk about, I don't know if the comedy club is the right place. It's part of the process creatively, but I just haven't been in a rush to get back out to figure it out yet, you know? It's been a really weird year for me in that the thing that I've done for 23 years is the thing that I did the least this year. And you know, that part of it's been really odd. It seems like the clubs are doing well though. You know, I still talk to a lot of comedians that are in the clubs because I'm still kind of that on the outside looking in. So I see all the comics who are touring, there's guys who I didn't know were headliners yet, but apparently, they are now. They're out there, they're doing their thing as well. So, you know, I'd say, all in all, it seems like the comedy club model got through it okay. But I don't know how sustainable it is as an entertainer to continue to be a part of this standup comedy model. You know, a lot of these new cats, you know, they're finding their own venues and they're figuring out their own way through the internet to get shit popping for themselves. But, you know, I will say this about standup. Since the shutdown, this idea of having one magical five-minute set on late night, and that being the thing that definitively becomes the new pivot point in your career, the likelihood of that happening is definitely less and less as the years go by.

[00:05:09] Dan Runcie: Interesting. I could only imagine how big of a life change it is for you. I remember you saying in the past, from when you started this once out of every 10 days, you were doing something on the road, right? Whether it was a standup show or something, and for you to be doing this completely different now, and just thinking about what the adapting is a complete life change, let alone anything on the business side of things.

[00:05:32] Roy Wood Jr.: Until the shutdown, until a federally mandated government shutdown, from 1998, I'd never gone more than 10 days without performing, period. 

[00:05:41] Dan Runcie: It's huge. 

[00:05:43] Roy Wood Jr.: And I've gone months. I look forward to it for months at a time. I don't have another gig right now. And I have a corporate gig in three months and I'm like, perfect, perfect because it gives me the time, it gives your brain the time to settle. I can only imagine, you know, when you look at guys like Chris Rock, who have said, you know, you need time to go away and live and see the world and experience things and have something to come back and report on. I understand that now.

[00:06:13] Dan Runcie: You also mentioned too, that there's material that you want to talk about, topics that you want to discuss that the stage may not be the best place for that. What are the things you want to discuss and why isn't the stage the best format? 

[00:06:27] Roy Wood Jr.: It's not the stage it's comedy club specifically. Like, alright, so I did Finding Your Roots over the shutdown and found out a lot of new truths about my father and, you know, some stuff on my mother's side, but as a father, myself, I often feel this attachment to my dad and then looking at how my father lost his dad when he was four. My granddaddy was gone when my dad was four. So when I think about that type of stuff, how that will inform the type of man that I will be to my son, and just family, and bonds, and the men who raise me in my father's absence. And there's jokes and there's stories, but as I figure out what the heart of the story is first before I make it funny, I don't know if the comedy club is always the right place for that because the comedy club, motherfucker, we want the jokes. I've been drinking. Me and my wife got dressed. I came here to be happy. You up there talking about your dead daddy and trying to figure out what that means for your son, motherfucker, I don't want to hear all that shit without jokes. So I think there's a place to go and develop that, you know, New York has a lot of different places, but also I think it's important for me to do my standup in venues other than comedy clubs because I think that sometimes, depending on the venue, you know, jazz club or black box, little theater or some improv house, I believe it changes how the material is received. You know, it changes how people listen to you sometimes. This is a terrible analogy and it's not going to be a perfect analogy, but it's like how food tastes better in church. You know, like when your grandma will pull a peppermint out of her purse, and she gave you that peppermint in the middle of a long ass church service, and that peppermint tasted like a pizza hu meat lovers. Like, it was just an amazing, so where we are sometimes can change the experience and the connection to the material. And so as I start mining this material, I'm going to have to figure out the best places to put it all together 'cause I feel like I'm teetering into some one-person show territory. And, you know, every comedian that I know that did a one-man show, you know, they didn't build it in a comedy club. You can sure present it at a comedy club, but you cannot build it there. That's why I've been meaning to talk to Jerrod to figure out where he built up Rothaniel 'cause, you know, that one was definitely a blend of the two skill sets. 

[00:08:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a good example of it. Just how he was able to be so raw, be so personal and different than anything he had done before leading up to this. I got to imagine, too, that part of this may also be linked with just the evolution of comedy and some of the other topics you've talked about recently and how people, especially nowadays, are looking for comedians to be truthsayers or they're also looking for them to be the ones that can tell them certain messages and how there's some people that believe that should be the case, but there's others that, I know you said this before, that it shouldn't necessarily be that way. So I feel like there's some of that that could also be potentially in line with some of the broader feeling about what is the best message to communicate where. 

[00:09:39] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah. And I think once you figure that out as a performer, the people will come find you. You know, I don't really think it matters where you go once people love you, they will follow you to wherever, you know, so I think that's it. They went to a farm to see Chappelle. So you can come up with different venues, you know, once you have the ideas that are worth hearing. So it's my job first to get the ideas together.

[00:10:02] Dan Runcie: Right, yeah. There's something about that comedy club setting, like you said. You're going with your significant other, you got the two-drink minimum. No, like I'm trying to get these laughs out that just doesn't, that works there. That doesn't necessarily translate elsewhere that could obviously work to your benefit going elsewhere. 

[00:10:18] Roy Wood Jr.: You can get deep in a comedy club, but you really have to stack the show properly. The people have to know who they're coming to see. And I'm still a comedian where, you know, with The Daily Show, unfortunately, this is a lot of people's first discovery point for me. So you don't know the previous 15, 16 years before I got with Trevor. So, you know, even those people come to a show and they want me to be a little more political than what I am on this show. And I'm like, sorry, that's not who I am. That's not what I do. So even within the construct of just regular standup, they still want something more specific. So, you know, it's about just figuring out, you know, the right places for that. But if you put that person in a setting they've never been to before, well, now you don't know what to expect. And I just think it just changes how you see and analyze things a little bit. You know, I'm going to try to experiment with, you know, different venues in '23.

[00:11:15] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. You mentioned the politics piece of it, too, and just , given what you and Trevor are doing on The Daily Show, people coming to you for that. But I assume part of it also is channeling back to that truthsayer thing and seeing some of the things that Chappelle and others have talked about. Do you think that the way the current climate is that when people are expecting you to speak on these things, do you think that this changes and continues to evolve, or do you feel like this is kind of the place that things are right now? 

[00:11:45] Roy Wood Jr.: I don't think that the role of comedian has changed. I think that the expectations of a comedian have changed. Some for the better some for the worse, but I can't think of any one standup comedian that I know that is, like, set and looked themselves in the mirror, okay, today these jokes are going to change everyone's and change the world. You know, comics are more outspoken. Comics are more, you know, quicker to say what they feel on stage, especially the young ones, which is good. But I don't feel like when people say this climate, the climate is about the people reacting to what the comedian said, but most of these comedians that people get mad at, they've been saying shit like this for a long as time. But they're groups of people that have decided, you know what? I want to hear that shit no more. So they got something to say and they got a right to that. But I think at the end of the day, I don't think comedians have changed. I mean, Louis C.K. Back, he's cooking. Chappelle got another three special re-up from Netflix after all of the outrage or whatever. So that should show you where the corporations stand. And for as long as you are an entertainer that has an audience of some sort, you know, they're going to find a place for you regardless of whether or not that pisses off another group of people. You know, that's just kind of where we've always existed as a society. It's capitalism, baby. 

[00:13:10] Dan Runcie: Does part of you see someone like, let's take Chappelle, 'cause you had mentioned him, him still getting these deals even after the backlash or even after the response. Does some of that almost feel like, okay, we're not necessarily just responding to what people may get mad at, there's still clearly an opportunity or there's still people that want to hear what we have to say, even if the expectations from our viewers have changed? 

[00:13:35] Roy Wood Jr.: I think that as a society, you know, it is very difficult to place the expectation of morality and profit on a corporation. Most corporations have to choose between one or the other. And when I say profitability, you know, we're talking gross levels of profitability. I don't think many companies care to a certain degree about people in general. You know, this is bigger than just entertainment and whether or not you can say something that pisses off a group of people. Delta Airlines just started paying their flight attendants for when the plane doors open and they're boarding passengers. It's nothing moral. There's nothing moral about that, but it's definitely profitable. And only when it became embarrassing, which is not profitable, that they become a company with morals. If you can't attach profitability to morality, more often than not, you're not going to find a corporation that's going to make moves like that. I'm not surprised that Netflix gave Chappelle more specials for the amount of people that were mad at it, clearly, somebody was watching it and this is Netflix. Netflix cancels shit while you are in the middle of watching the episode. The second episode of a 10-episode show will come out and Netflix about, yes, cancel. What? Damn, can I finish? Season one? Nah, we've already looked at the metrics of the first episode that tells us everything we need to know. So, you know, that's a company that, you know, like people say that, oh, it's a FU to the LGBTQI community. It's definitely a slight to them for them to rebook Chappelle after they had said what they said and everybody had protested, whatever, whatever. But also Netflix is a company and that's about profit, which means somebody was watching Chappelle. And that's all they care about. That's all most companies care about is eyeballs. So, you know, unless you're getting into just straight-up criminalistic behavior of someone, morality versus profit is always going to be a tug of war that most corporations, they just do not have the heart that people do.

[00:15:34] Dan Runcie: That's real. That's real. I mean, and even thinking about Chappelle specifically, because of how Netflix tracks the performance, a lot of the backlash likely helps those episodes because you have some that are tuning in because they want to hear what he has to say. But you have others tuning in because now they want to see or hear what he said that is causing all of these headlines.

[00:15:55] Roy Wood Jr.: And that's all Netflix cares about. So the surprise on the backside is that can you believe this company didn't care? Yes, I can absolutely believe this company didn't care because more often than not most companies don't care. And that goes into women's rights, that goes into race, and George Floyd, and every company putting up black lives matter, whatever the fuck on the top of their website, and black squares and Instagram. So, you know, when it comes to a bevy of social, it is just, you know, it's interesting because corporations are now rocking a heart because now being moral. if it's profitable and cool, they'll jump on board. But if it's not, they're kind of like, eh, we'll see.

[00:16:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. You've experienced this, you've worked with a number of these networks and seen the decisions that you've made. How has this impacted you at all with any of the partnerships you've made? I know you have the deal with Comedy Central that you've had. I know you had a special that came out with them, but we'll talk about that in a second. But how has that been with regards to you, and your specials, and your content, and how that works for you, both with the things that you want to do with the networks, and how you're able to still produce and create? 

[00:17:05] Roy Wood Jr.: You know, from the standup side, you know, it's fine. We're Comedy Central. You know, we had a, I call it The Trilogy. I had my first three-hour specials with Comedy Central and they were good. And now, as I think about what that next block of content will be, you know, we'll figure out where that's supposed to go once I figure out creatively, what the fuck it's going to be? But, you know, on the scripted side and selling scripts, I've been very blessed to have opportunities to sell stuff, not just the Comedy Central, but you know, Fox and NBC in the last couple of years and HBO Max as well. but the thing is that it's very difficult to predict how COVID is going to affect a network's creative strategy when it comes to scripted, you know. Like scripted is, that's where the glory is. That's where the fun is, right? But, you know, I had one script, Jefferson County: Probation. Aaron Magruder was my, you know, executive producer and co-creator on it. And as soon as we got the script together and shot the pilot, there was a merger between Viacom and CBS and they changed their strategy. And then right after that COVID hit and they changed their strategy again. And at both of those mile markers, scripted shows were the first things to get cut from the budget because they're the most expensive. So the pressure to be profitable fast or to have a cultural impact fast is greater now on the content that, you know, that we have because the thing that I don't like about Netflix is that what streaming has removed from our zeitgeist is the concept of a cult hit. You know, like a cult hit TV show. Cult is just a nice way of saying underground and not a lot of people watch it, but the ones who watch it really, really love it. But there are shows that sometimes do not pop until season three. Sometimes season four and it takes people a while to get on board, but then you have a network that has creative execs who want to stay in that pocket. And now we believe in this show. We're going to give it another season, give it another season, give it another season. This don't happen with black shows. I'm talking about Arrested Development and you know, shit like that. And maybe The Wire, if you want to count that as a cult hit. But I feel like The Wire was more by the time they got to season four, everybody was on board, but at that point, HBO was like, wrap it up. Streaming, the analytics that are attached to streaming companies deciding whether or not a scripted show lives or dies has eliminated the ability for certain shows to germinate over a year or two, and really have an opportunity to find their audience, get the word of mouth. Everything is now, now, now. And so because of that, you know, where scripted is concerned, you have to have an idea that pops now, that sails, now that gets on TV now. And if you're really lucky, it also touches the vein of what is happening in the now. That's why Abbott Elementary is what it is. You have a great creator. You have a great writer. It's well cast, it's shot beautifully, it's funny, but also educators are at the forefront of a lot of the bullshit that's been going on the last two years. It's perfectly on the pulse. It's perfectly on the pulse. So, you know, word of mouth isn't enough. You also have to have the numbers. And so, you know, I'd say that for me, when it comes to coming up with scripted content, you almost have to find something that lives. You have to have the idea that lives at multiple intersections, because if it's just a fun, cool, nice idea. That might not be enough anymore. That's 2015 ideology. 

[00:20:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The closest thing that seems like it's comparable to that cult classic of discovering it seasons later is when something gets picked up from a smaller network and then gets put on one of these big streamers. For instance, I'm thinking about South Side. Season Two. It's on HBO Max. And I think that made a lot of people that weren't watching South Side Season One discover it. 

[00:20:57] Roy Wood Jr.: Correct. Like, there's a show that was on in Canada that came over to Netflix called Kim's Convenience and that was a fucking hilarious sitcom that somebody like me, I would've never discovered had it not come over to, but it had to live over in Canada for two years. But you need execs who care about the IP and care about the idea. And a lot of these execs are under the same pressure as the creatives. You better be bringing this studio, some hit shows and you better be signing and buying scripts from the best creators 'cause if you aren't and we don't have a hit, if we're not getting nominations, and we're not getting talked about it's your ass, too. So if you have an exec that is betting on a show, that's just has midling numbers versus just canceling it, and bringing in something new, there's also job security in that for them as well. And I think that's why, you know, to a degree, you know, you don't see shows that get an opportunity to build and grow their audience, either you a hit out the gate or you got a target on your back. 

[00:21:57] Dan Runcie: The other challenging thing about this is knowing what those numbers are and whether or not the streaming services are sharing them with you. From your perspective as someone that is doing the scripts, selling shows, do you feel like you're getting any true quantitative aspect to be able to compare and say, okay, I see what I would've been able to hit or what the target is or how that compares, 'cause that's the piece that feels so non-transparent at all right now.

[00:22:26] Roy Wood Jr.: That part of the game is still above my pay grade because I haven't gotten anything that's gone to series. I've sold a bunch of scripts that have all gone to pilot and most have gone to pilot at least. But even with the stuff over at Comedy Central, you know, we're on basic cable. So it's Nielsen. So, you know, that's more above board than companies giving their streaming numbers. But I wouldn't even be able to speak to that, unfortunately. I hope to be able to one day, but not today. 

[00:22:51] Dan Runcie: Yeah. There was some interview I had seen it was Steven Soderbergh or someone like that. And he was like, I have no idea how well these movies do. They literally just tell me, yes, this was good. You can make another one or no, we're all set. Thanks. And he's just like, okay, then that's when he decides to make another movie. 

[00:23:08] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah, that part of it, yeah, you are totally flying blind as a creator. You know, at some point there's going to have to be some equity in this, but, hey, sooner or later, all of these streaming sites are just going to keep merging and folding into one another. It's like airlines in the eighties. Go Google up how many different airline carriers we had in the eighties. And then here we are now with United, Delta, Southwest, JetBlue, and, what, American. Spirit and JetBlue emerging. So, okay, so you'll have, what, four or five major carriers? In the eighties, there was like, well, over 30. I could Google it real quick, but I know for sure I can name 15 airline companies from the eighties and I bet you the numbers are higher than that. 

[00:23:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's that whole industry. Even the big ones have done so many consolidations, even in the past 20, 25 years, they've done a bunch. It's been wild. 

[00:23:59] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah. My point is that all those streamers are going to eventually all keep folding into each other and it's going to be basic cable all over again. 

[00:24:05] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. And I think, too, even how they're making decisions is starting to stand out. I'm sure you saw the Batgirl news when the movie's done, they just decide not to run that thing and just put it as a write-off. That's not going to be the last time that happens. 

[00:24:20] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah. It's literally cheaper to not release this because the landscape keeps changing, bro. My heart goes out to that whole team. They are crushed about that. You know, as they should, but you work hard on a film, spend 90 million, at least you could do is put it out. But, you know, I just think that, you know, corporations like it's, again, it's profit. The right thing to do would've been to release the Batgirl film, but if projections and analytics have already told you that this film more than likely will underperform in the top tier markets where we need it to perform above money, profitability, it ain't profitable. Morality ain't profitable, man. So fuck them folks. We ain't going to release the film. Oh, but we should, they worked really hard. It's a black woman get to be black. We don't give a fuck. Cancel it. That's how a lot of places think, man. And you know, as they say, the game is the game, but that don't make it right. That don't make it hurt less. I just think that that's where a lot of companies are coming from, you know. They want bankable stars or an idea that's high concept and easy and quick and catches on. I still think that, you know, when you look at a show like Squid Game, which was such a breakout, you know, hit for Netflix, I think that the new superstar is the ensemble. You know, if you can't get a single star to carry your thing, then you need a great idea with a bunch of people nobody knows anything about. And then that's how you get people to invest, get people to invest in the concept and not the face.

[00:25:47] Dan Runcie: Interesting. I can see that because I feel like there's so many big-name movies that you see on Netflix and they have all of these actors that you would consider to be A-list, but they come and go. But yeah, the magic of Squid Game is that it didn't have that, but it had this fascinating topic that people just wanted to have more and more of. It created a bunch of memes. And I'm sure not only they're trying to create a sequel, they're trying feel like, okay, what is the next thing like that that's going to take off. And sometimes it's random. I mean, I don't know if people thought that Queen's Gambit was going to take off the way that it did or any of those things. I feel like Netflix, especially, it feels like it could be very, you know, we'll see what happens.

[00:26:27] Roy Wood Jr.: I mean, when you look at shows that have sustainability and have expanded their universes, like Power, there isn't a single actor in Power that is such a behemoth. Like, and I don't say that as a slight, it's an extremely talented cast of wonderful A-list actors. But when you look at how they try to anchor a show around one person, where Power is, it's always been a universe of people all working together. Of course, you have Mary J and Method Man in it, but it's not Mary J and Method Man alone to, it's not Joseph Sikora alone. Abbott is an ensemble cast. It's not a singular person. And so I think that concept will, I don't know, man. Why do you think people get so excited when Idris Elba comes back to do another round of Luther? It's 'cause, oh, my God, it's him. You get Idris every scene being badass, but he's busy, he's got movies to do and stuff. So I just think creatively, we're probably in a world where, you know, by and large, I feel like we'll just see more and more, you know, larger groups of people unless you have a network willing to pour millions of dollars into one person. You know, I don't know.

[00:27:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think, too, we talked a little bit about how this is part of the evolution. Part of it, too, they want to have something that's quick to capture people's attention. And I think some of this has impacted how comics, and you as well, have talked about how it may approach your shows and how you're delivering certain information. And I know you've talked a lot about both the balance of having the timely topics, of talking about something that's current versus having those evergreen things that you need to, or you want to be able to tap into. And I feel like, you know, why actually Imperfect Messenger, you did a good job of that with just being able to balance things, you know, whether you're talking about current topics or just evergreen things. How conscious is that when you're thinking about the topics that you want to cover in a special?

[00:28:22] Roy Wood Jr.: Well, for Imperfect Messenger, my comedic philosophy up until now, it has changed now 'cause I want to talk about myself and not the world. But the creative excavation process of a joke for me boils down to what is everybody saying about this topic. And is there anything new I can say? And if the answer is yes, then I continue down that road of exploration and then I put that joke on stage and then the best jokes win. As I like to call it, those are the jokes that make the 25-man roster, like baseball. Like, these are the start. 12- man, if you want to go basketball. So, you know, if the argument is A and B, is there a C side to it that I can introduce? Like if you look at my second special, No One Loves You, where I talk about the national anthem and the debate at the time with Kaepernick was should people stand for the anthem or should you take a knee? And my angle was why is that song the anthem? That song sucks. And then an exploration into what songs could replace it. What, if you won't stand for that song, is there a song that people would stand for? And so that's kind of my approach, you know, to a lot of this. You know, and if we're going to talk about Imperfect Messenger and we talk about policing and, you know, the issues that lie in policing in America now. Okay, fine. It's going to take bureaucracy and a lot of bullshit to try and get that changed. But in the meantime, in the interim, what are the small things cops could do to help? And then the joke is just essentially, a run of those things. You know, every now and then just let a black person, someone who should have gone to jail, let them go. If there's Stop Talking in Code on the radio, I forget my material. Like, literally the night I do a special, that material just turns into Thanos dust in my brain. But for me. That's how I've always tried to approach standup and my material rather than just arguing from the conventional positions that have already been presented to everybody because if nothing more, I want you to leave with a different perspective. I'm not trying to be right or wrong. I am just trying to make sure that you get something that you hadn't considered. 

[00:30:26] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I always got that impression. I feel like that's a good example. I also think about, from Imperfect Messenger, your piece about Leonardo DiCaprio and Django Unchained and even though that movie, you know, I think like eight years ago at that point, still everyone knows exactly who you're talking about. It's timely. It's not dated in this way of a comedian still referencing, you know, pop culture from the nineties, but you have it. And you're able to weave that in with everything that's happening. And I feel like even though that was a movie that was a few years older, you're still relating it to all the topics we're talking about now, like allyship and all those things. So I feel like people may not see the subtleties, but when you really break it down, you can see how much goes into constructing a good joke.

[00:31:08] Roy Wood Jr.: I appreciate that, man, 'cause you get paranoid about that type of stuff, 'cause you don't want to be dated, but are there evergreen examples of a point that I'm trying to make that could help me parallel and boil this down, you know, a little bit more? You know, that special was also very interesting because the story that I told near the end about a childhood friend that's in prison for the murder of a person I know, but, you know, he was the getaway driver. You know, like that was a joke. He was a getaway driver in a robbery that turned into a murder is what actually happened in real life. And so he never went in the store, but in Alabama, the law is set up where everybody gets the murder charge. If a murder happens while your crime is being committed. And that joke was set up in a way where it was really about him and the sentencing and how it's all messed up and blah, blah, blah. But you know, there's part of me that's, you know, I love Birmingham. I love Birmingham, Alabama. I love the people there. And I've tried, you know, for the entirety of my career since 2001, when I came home and started at the radio station and started doing stuff in the community with the radio station. I've always tried to be a person that's of the community. And so that joke carries a different level of responsibility when I'm home because everyone remembers that murder. Everyone remembers Mr. Muhammad being murdered at the Music-N-More store and that man was a pillar of the community. So if I'm going to speak on his legacy, there's got to be balance to that. And you know what. I probably should reach out to his family before I put this on national television. And so when I did that and I had a conversation with his son, it completely shifted what that joke was and it made it the right version of what that joke needed to be. And that's the thing that I really enjoy. And it's part of really what's triggered so much more of where I am now creatively because that just wasn't an A, B, and C observation. This was a legitimate issue that I was having within myself of feeling like my friend should not be in prison for the rest of his life for being an accomplice, but also feeling empathy for the family, because I knew them. Like, they carry my CD and I'll spare the story here, but in the special, you know, I tell the story of my relationship with this store as an independent music artist, like this store supported local rappers and, like, they help people kickstart their career. So it's not as cut and dry. So when you look at a law, like, the one that Alabama has set up and then you start talking to the victims, then you start understanding why these laws are in place. And so that will always be my favorite joke isn't the word, but it's definitely the most honest joke that I've told on television to this point. 

[00:34:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Well, definitely link it to this one to make sure that people can see it, that or listening to this episode right now and just bringing it all full circle. I can see how this is informing the type of content or the type of message that you want to be able to push forward, whether you're telling it in a different setting, whether you're finding new ways to tell it, it has been really cool to see how so many of our favorite comedians have been able to find new ways to be able to share different messages or even things that they may have to give a little piece of and seen that that's where they want to move more into for the next stage of their career. So I'm excited for that. 

[00:34:43] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah, it's going to be fun. You know, it's going to be fun, talking more about my father, my relationship with him talking about, you know, raising my own child. My son is six. So you know, that is definitely a new and scary place to be as a parent. But yeah, yeah, I'm excited about what's down the road, but I'm just not in a position anymore where I feel like I need to rush. You know, I was very blessed, but also probably very crazy. I put out three one-hour specials over the span of five years. That's a pretty healthy clip, you know? So I feel like I should go sit my ass down somewhere for a second and really think about, you know, what it is I want to say and what I'm trying to do. 

[00:35:24] Dan Runcie: What's your son's relationship with your comedy? Is it something that he goes and checks back in looking back at old clips, just to see the history of where you came to things, or is he not allowed to look at all that just yet?

[00:35:37] Roy Wood Jr.: He might catch me on the couch every blue moon watching old episodes of The Daily Show. Like, I binge our show every week, 'cause I don't get to always watch it every night 'cause of whatever's going on. So he may pop in and see me on television. Like, if you ask my son what his father does for a living, he'll say my dad works on TV and he's a comedian. Like, he knows that much. He's been with me to sound checks early in the afternoon for, you know, theater shows and stuff. But the idea of bringing him around this and exposing him to it for the sake of this is what you're going to do, this's a family business. Nah, not really. I'd like for him to see some of the cameramen and the editors and the computer stuff. I don't think my son will be a comedian because he has two loving parents, which is already the worst thing that could happen to a comedian. To be a good comedian, you can't have both of your parents love you. What trauma you got? We want to know what's wrong with you. 

[00:36:32] Dan Runcie: Right. What is the source of the comedy then?

[00:36:35] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah, so we're trying to raise him as pain-free as possible. So I think that's going to make him ineligible for most comedy clubs. 

[00:36:41] Dan Runcie: maybe he'll go back and look at the old stuff. He'll go back to that. You know, the Last Comic Standing run, then he'll come back to see, okay, all right. I can see this trajectory here. I can see what dad's been up to. 

[00:36:52] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah. I mean, he's funny. He has a sense of humor. He's cognizant of that, but it's not something I encourage or discourage. It's just, you know, whatever you feel like doing today, bro. Then that's what you're going to do. Like right now he's into the BattleBots. So let's watch and do things that are related to mechanics and STEM and see where that goes.

[00:37:10] Dan Runcie: I'm hearing a lot from you in this conversation that talks a lot about both mentorship and the relationship that you have with others in your life, especially family members and important figures. And I know that from a comedian perspective, Dick Gregory was an important person in your life. And you had referenced in a past interview life-changing conversation you had had with him and it would be great to hear a little bit more about what that conversation was like and how that changed, how you ended up approaching comedy. 

[00:37:39] Roy Wood Jr.: I only saw Dick Gregory, I only opened for him twice. And the first time was in Selma at the Bridge Crossing Jubilee. It was a banquet that he and Jesse Jackson were speaking at. And then the other time was in, I opened for him proper in a comedy club in Zanies in Nashville. And he said something that just always resonated with me. You know, I'm butchering the quote, but he said people always ask me, Dick, why you always on the road? Why are you always out of town? And I said, because the battle for justice ain't at my house. And so that always stuck with me in terms of his tenacity right up till the end. You know, he died the way that, that every comedian wants to die and that's with dates on the books. I think it's the biggest compliment that, you know, any comedian can have is to die with still having more work and gigs scheduled because you got to get the message out there. You got to make people laugh. You got to try to heal people. In Dick Gregory's case, you know, he was doing things that were far above and beyond just telling a couple of shuck and jive jokes about police reform. This man was out there really doing the work, you know, concurrent. This man would have had a full itinerary all day and then go do two shows on a Friday night. It's not like he was just posted up in the hotel, watching Maury Povich till 7:30. So, you know, when I look at his career and everything that he did, that was a beautiful thing to see. It was a beautiful thing to see a dude knocking on 80 that was just at a comedy club on a Friday night, and it's 350 people ready to pay him and ready to hear what he has to say. And to be able to still say things that are resonant and that are on the pulse of what people are feeling, you can be funny, you can get away with being funny for a little while, but true career longevity as a comedian, I believe you have to make people feel, you have to give them an emotion. Sooner or later they have to leave feeling a certain way. It's not just a matter of the tactile Xs and Os of did they laugh at the setup Did they laugh at the punchline? Okay, next joke. It's what are you infusing into that person's heart on the backside of this experience that you all had together on stage for an hour. And, you know, I saw Dick Gregory do that twice and Selma was even more amazing 'cause he did it from a podium and I cannot explain to anybody how hard it is to do standup comedy from a podium. Jokes do not go over a podium, lectern, whatever the hell you want to call it don't matter. The jokes don't go over it. The moment you standing at one of them damn things, you look like a preacher and none of your jokes are funny, but Dick Gregory demolished, demolished, it was a good time. 

[00:40:19] Dan Runcie: That's special, yeah. He's someone that always stuck out in a unique way with everything that he did. So and I think a lot about that, even with artists or anyone that's performing on stage, if you can still do this when you're 70, 80 years old, that's where the real magic comes. And I know many of the younger artists now want to get there and it's great to see. I think, you know, you're in a generation of comedians that I think are going to be doing the same thing as well., 

[00:40:44] Roy Wood Jr.: Trying to, that's what I'm trying to get to. 

[00:40:48] Dan Runcie: All right. Well, before we let you go, we do got to talk about the film that you have coming out, Confess, Fletch out in theaters September 16th. And I have to ask, you're a detective in this film, you're opposite Jon Hamm, is Jon Hamm, a white ally that we could trust in this movie? 

[00:41:07] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah, yeah, in the movie. Yeah, I'd say in real life as well. I'll go ahead and hang that on him. No, it's dope. I also had to give a shout-out to our director, Greg Mottola, and Greg, you know, really worked to create something that totally feels different from the bright lights and the big demonstrative jokes that were the eighties Chevy Chase version of this character. And so, you know, it plays right into Jon Hamm's warehouse. I'm just happy. I got to play a cop in Boston and they didn't force me to do a Boston accent 'cause that would've been insulting. That would've been very terrible. 

[00:41:39] Dan Runcie: Was that a conversation at all? Did anyone even broach, Hey, should you try to do this? Or should we, 'cause I know that Jon Hamm with The Town and all that stuff, I know he's done it before. 

[00:41:48] Roy Wood Jr.: It was breached briefly during my audition and at the audition, they said don't even try it. We've watched a tape on you. I'm like, well, just let me know if you wanted the cop to be from Alabama. I can nail that one, man.

[00:42:02] Dan Runcie: Sometimes I feel bad. The ones that they try to do, like, when Anthony Anderson was in The Departed, love Anthony Anderson, but I feel like they try to make everybody in that movie. What was it, Mystic River, I feel like that was another one where they try to have everyone do a Boston accent. I'm like, all right. I don't know, you know. Let's have a few signature characters maybe, and I think everyone else is fine. 

[00:42:20] Roy Wood Jr.: Yeah. Yeah. It was fine. It was definitely a good time. It was a good shoot, you know I think just murder- mystery- comedy, you know, I think it feels light enough and fun enough in these times. And so, you know, we don't get too woke in it and I know everybody is scared of the woke and the woke mob is coming. A, it's a cop trying to catch a criminal or a guy that he thinks is a criminal. It's a cop trying to solve a murder and a private detective trying to solve the murder as well. So, you know, I think it's a good film. 

[00:42:48] Dan Runcie: And we talked a lot in this conversation about streaming and everything releasing there. This is not debuting on streaming, out in theaters, available on demand as well. Did that change to the creation process at all? Or does that change your relationship at all with this movie? 

[00:43:05] Roy Wood Jr.: No. I think that it'll be interesting to see how quickly people see it and when and where. You know, I do think that coming out on demand, in addition to theaters, I think it only helps word of mouth and I think it still brings profits for the film itself. So, you know, in that regard, you know, I think it'll be fine. But when you make the movie you're, as an actor, my job is to just make the movie y'all can figure out the rest of that shit after, you know, two months from now in post-production, you can decide how many theaters and blah, blah, blah, and all of that. 

[00:43:34] Dan Runcie: Exciting stuff. Well, we'll definitely look out for that, but Roy, it's been a pleasure, man. Thanks for coming on, keeping it real as always. And if people want to follow you and stay in touch with everything you're doing, where can they find you?

[00:43:46] Roy Wood Jr.: Oh, it's Roy Wood Jr. I put an @ sign in front, .com on the backside. Also visit me online, my podcast, roysjobfair.com. 

[00:43:54] Dan Runcie: Good stuff. Appreciate you, man. Thanks again. 

[00:43:56] Roy Wood Jr.: All right, will do.

[00:43:58] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.



]]> 2672 no TikTok Wants to Takeover. Will it Succeed? https://www.trapital.com/podcast TikTok has reshaped the Internet in under a three-year span, but if its parent company, ByteDance, has its way, the platform’s dominance is just getting started. This week I brought Stan founder Denisha Kuhlor back onto the show to discuss TikTok’s ambitious plans for total media domination. In the past few months, TikTok has announced plans for several new features — each aimed at competing with current media giants such as Google, Spotify, and Ticketmaster. Features include extending video-length capacity to 10 minutes, the TikTok Music streaming service, better internal search capabilities, and a ticketing platform, among many others. Recent history in Western culture is not kind to companies trying to be an all-in-one platform. Google and Facebook stumbles come to mind. To predict how TikTok might fare, Denisha and I hit the new features point-by-point, weighing TikTok’s advantages and disadvantages at breaking into each. Here’s our main talking points:  [0:50] TikTok’s masterplan [7:02] Prediction: 10-minute-long TikTok videos [11:50] Prediction: TikTok music streaming service [15:43] Prediction: Enhanced TikTok search [22:00] Prediction: SoundOn music distribution [25:42] Prediction: In-app ticketing  [29:46] Are consumers creator or platform loyal? [33:18] TikTok’s impact on creator economy  [37:22] TikTok’s geopolitical issues Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: It has become this trend where we have more affinity to the platform and the platform's ability to curate the content than some of these content creators themselves. And in a world where I think these content creators are so driven to following the algorithm and getting promoted by the algorithm, what they don't realize is kind of the uniformity in content that is created.   [00:00:30] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:50] Dan Runcie: All right. We're joined again today by Denisha Kuhlor, who is the founder and CEO of Stan. And today we're going to talk all about TikTok. And TikTok has been a topic I know you and I have talked about offline, we've both covered it and have our opinions on it, but I want to talk today about talk's grand plan to try to take over everything. Just to name a few headlines from the past couple of months, TikTok is planning to extend into 10-minute long videos. It is launching its own music distribution service called SoundOn. It filed a trademark for its own streaming service called TikTok Music. They are enhancing their search function to identify key terms. They're also adding in a text-to-image option as well so that people can start to do that. And it sounds like a lot, the company has grown quite a bit, so it's understandable. But do we think that TikTok is going to be able to do all of these things? What's your thought?  [00:01:47] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So TikTok's been really interesting to watch these last few months and honestly, really from inception, my initial hunch is that it's hard to do a lot of things well. And as TikTok grows and somewhat through replication and also a bit through innovation, I do think they're going to struggle to really get to scale for all the new features that they want to launch.  [00:02:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think the tough thing with this, and it's something that has been ingrained with big tech companies for a while is when the big social network grows and they have this huge following. TikTok now is the fastest to reach 1 billion monthly active users. We can see the trajectory of it potentially getting to be as big as Facebook is now. And Facebook, of course, is another company that has tried and is still trying to do every possible thing under the sun. But I think the part that's important is there are a few examples when these companies have succeeded. Instagram copying Snapchat is of course the primary example that people often look back to, but more often than not, most of these attempts don't actually work that well. And one of the reasons they don't work as well is because they don't necessarily solve a true need that the core users are looking for to be solved from that app. And I think that's one of the important things about Instagram Story specifically because Instagram Stories copy Snapchat worked because Instagram already had a hub of influencers as its core users. And these core users wanted to be able to both post pictures, but they also didn't want to feel the pressure of needing to have this polished picture that was on their feed all of the time. So their thought was, okay, if they could copy this feed that they see Snapchat's doing, they already had the core users there and having something that's more ephemeral. It can go away in 24 hours was perfect. It worked as good as you could probably expect it to. And honestly, it worked better than Snapchat because Instagram already had the home base of those core users whereas Snapchat, at the time, they had a bit of penetration from Gen Z, a bit of DJ Khaled here and there, but it just wasn't to that same level. And I think when you look at a lot of the other attempts that Facebook has tried to copy from others and even Instagram as well with seeing with Reels, that's the piece that I go back to. If these successes and these copycat attempts haven't worked, it's usually because there's some type of disconnect between what the core users on that app are looking for and whether or not that new feature helps them do that. [00:04:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Totally. And I think it creates a culture even internally for these organizations of duplication versus innovation, right? So now you see these organizations going and seeking the desire to duplicate and get to market as quickly as possible, whereas before they had no choice but to be innovative. And to do that, I think they really had to listen to their users and the folks on the app. So it also just even changes, in a way, the culture of what the app is about because now folks are so used to see or expecting to see things that have already been done before, rather than excitement towards really where the platform could take things.  [00:05:01] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's interesting because, on one hand, I do understand the aspect of copying what's already successful. You see it's there and you know that you have those users on your platform already. So why not make an attempt, why not use your resources, especially because of how much money these companies print on ads, then, yeah, you could take the chance with Google having its Google X or Facebook opening up its own VC firm or in many ways, treating all these new initiatives as its own VC firm. But to your point, you do lose the innovation and that's exactly why these apps became relevant in the first place. They offered something newer. They did it in a truly unique way. And when you think about why TikTok has blown up, the genius of it is that For You page. They made it so frictionless to be able to stay entertained, to scroll. You don't have to think about who to follow. You don't need to do any of those things. And that is its biggest strength, but I think it also makes it very challenging to have any type of new feature that is harder or requires more user- input or more activity than the mindless scrolling that has worked in its favor up to this point. [00:06:11] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I completely agree. I feel like the For You page really was the magic and to, in some ways, see them stray away from that, or even improving that in other ways does feel a little unfortunate. Some of the features that you listed, while exciting, I think are just not necessary in the sense that so many other folks are out there doing it. But it will be interesting to see how it fits within maybe the grand scheme or the grand vision for TikTok users and creators. I mean, when it comes down to maybe offering a more seamless experience, then it gets a little bit more interesting. But how big of a problem is that right now for creators, especially when you think about, like, some of the plays towards distribution and features around that? The problems don't seem prevalent enough to justify the investment. But maybe there's a grand vision within all of that, in which it makes more sense.  [00:07:02] Dan Runcie: So let's break those down. Let's go through each of 'em. Let's start first with TikTok extending into 10-minute videos. I do feel like this is probably the least friction out of each of them, but what's your thought on this expansion and clearly a move to compete more directly with YouTube?  [00:07:18] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think this one is interesting because it really, in some ways, is probably the least painful in the sense that if content is compelling enough, you could argue that an individual is just going to keep watching, if the initial, you know, piece of content is compelling enough. What actually is, like, somewhat fascinating to me is that in some ways you could argue that TikTok took away or has hindered people's ability to focus for that long of time. So going to like the corollary of now having 10-minute videos, I do think will be interesting 'cause it's like a different habit, right? Even just focusing on something for 10 minutes versus like 6 seconds is a very different habit. So to see how or to see what type of users actually adapt to that, I think it will be interesting. I do think though there'll probably be some niche communities that emerge as a result of that feature who do want to take deep dives much to content, right? There's folks that like read casually about the music industry and then folks that like really, I think, deep dive, much as a testament to Trapital's content. And so I do think, like, some interesting, like, subsections of the feature will rise. However, I think the bulk of the users aren't even, like, able to watch a video for that long. [00:08:33] Dan Runcie: I think that if it is extending the videos into that length, I agree with you. This is the least friction one. I think it does have the highest likelihood of success. But if I'm thinking about music videos specifically or something that ends up being at least that length, it changes the format to look like what the videos for the most successful YouTubers often look like and the science that goes behind that. I'm picturing what NBA YoungBoy does in the beginning of his videos or even someone like MrBeast. There's some hook there that gives you some tease and that keeps you engaged, just to make sure that you end up watching the whole thing to see what it is. So I feel like if artists start creating music videos or start creating videos in general to be more like 10 minutes. And I think the format of how those videos look will be a lot different and everything will be how do we keep people engaged so that, okay, if we keep them for the first 15 seconds, how do you get them for the next 15 seconds and after that. Like, you can't have these long buildups that I think you can have for certain types of videos on YouTube, just give the audience. But I think it will change things in that format. No different than when MTV blew up, there was a type of video vibe that people tried to go after. I think that if this is the route that TikTok is really trying to go. I think we may see videos lead more into that where, yeah, everyone does start creating videos where you may look like you're trying to be a YouTuber. You're trying to be a TikTok dancer, whatever it is. But I feel like that's where it could head if it's as successful as it could be.  [00:10:04] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, that's actually really interesting in the sense that a lot of folks, like, point to their desire to use TikTok because it does feel like less polished, in a way more authentic. I was listening to a podcast where a TikToker says she makes more content on TikTok because she has to like, yeah, just be less prepared in a way or prepare herself to get on TikTok in the way you would for on Instagram. So I think if that does happen, it'll probably have an effect they don't want, which is a longer timeline to people creating and posting content. And like, just a harder barrier to entry because now folks will feel like, well, I don't have all the things needed to start a TikTok or to really start posting on TikTok, which is really against, I think what the platform did in its early days.  [00:10:50] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah, you're right. That whole instant, making it easy as possible is part of it. It almost brings me back to Vine to an extent. Maybe that's a better comparison for what this looks like 'cause of course someone like a MrBeast or NBA YoungBoy, they have big teams at this point. But some would be able to take a Vine and having this whole narrative story in that 6-second, 7-second clip, maybe it's getting a bit back to that. But even that takes time and there's clearly a difference between that. And, you know, while Vine was popular, it didn't blow up the way that TikTok has blown up. So I feel like you're right. It may change the app in a way that users aren't ready for. But we'll see. I obviously know that this is kind of what happens when you're trying to do everything. You're going to risk having some type of frustration that comes from the core users.  [00:11:37] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Much to your point, I do think there will be a really active, like, community or communities around that in which like 10 minutes of content works really well and TikTok is just like an easy medium to do that  [00:11:50] Dan Runcie: For sure. All right. The second one here, this one I will be interested to dive into. TikTok Music and TikTok filing this trademark. It clearly wants to launch its own music streaming service. We had heard rumors about ByteDance, TikTok's parent company, wanting to do this, but how do you see this one playing out? [00:12:09] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, this one, I just kind of felt like, okay, like another music streaming service You know, one, I don't think people realize or really think through just like how complex streaming services are as a business. I mean, thankfully, you know, a lot of platforms have kind of, pioneered some of the heavy lifting that came with making deals with labels and really like getting the content onto the platform. But that's all still to be said that it's a very unique and complex business model that's driven on another party, right? And how another party feels about giving you access to your content? What does seem somewhat interesting about it is, in the same way that TikTok democratizes content creation and the barrier to entry to post, you could probably argue that it in a way, democratizes that for music, and so more artists are able to get more volume or traction as a result. And so I do think if they focus on maybe content from newer creators or newer musicians who don't necessarily have some of that on the platform, that could be interesting, like in terms of a new streaming platform being able to get access to these independent artists at rates that could be favorable. I think that's interesting, but I don't know if that works at scale. And frankly, like, songs from independent artists, I don't think, is enough to keep a consumer satiated. And there's an even harder barrier to entry to have two streaming platforms at once.  [00:13:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, this is the one I'm probably the most skeptical of its success and for very similar reasons. Say what you want about Spotify. I know people have a number of issues about how that platform is operated and how it distributes its money. But the fact that it's helped the music industry, A, get to this point, says something and just the type of deals it's been able to negotiate to make it all work the way that it has that's enabled all the other types of revenue-generating opportunities that have came from it. And then additionally, it's hard to get to that point. Again, you may not agree with all the decisions that they make, but it is very hard to get to that point. And while I understand, from a strategic perspective, why TikTok may initially want to do this. Of course, if you have and you own the top of funnel that exists in the industry today, why wouldn't you want to at least think about what it could be like to keep that attention on your platform? If your platform is where discovery is happening for both the new fans, for artists to get initial exposure, and for that, you know, the record labels are already seeing, I understand why you would want to think about keeping more of that in-house. But it is a lot tougher than they think for the reasons you mentioned. And also going back to the usability of the app streaming services are a type of consumer experience that requires much more active engagement. People don't just scroll through Spotify and Apple Music. You're going there actively to find something that you're looking for. I mean, I don't even know that many people that are actively relying on that discover weekly playlists to find anything. You're still searching for the things that you want. Even if you're looking for a playlist, it's probably that's much more catered toward the mood or genre that you have. So I think anything that requires that level of agency or action from the consumer side will always be a bit of a challenge for TikTok there. So yeah, I'm skeptical on the success of that one. Unless it tries to go more of the YouTube route of things, which ties back into the 10-minute video things that we talked about before. There's some potential there, but even there, I think there's still some question marks. [00:15:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I'm aligned with you there.  [00:15:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The next one is TikTok Search. A lot of us had seen the viral tweet that someone had. I don't Google I TikTok. And a lot of that spoke to how a lot of folks in Gen Z are looking for information and I get it, I've even done it myself, my wife and I were recently searching to buy a new mattress. And you know what? I didn't want to go through a Google Search and just read some sponsored content about a mattress. I wanted to see a video of someone unboxing this thing to see what it looks like.  [00:16:10] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly.  [00:16:10] Dan Runcie: And TikTok was the quickest place to do that, even quicker than YouTube. YouTube's going to show me a mix of explainer videos and then also concept from the company. I just wanted to see some random person be like, oh, hey, here's what I think about this bed. And here's what I think about that bed. It was quick, it was easy. So I do think that that works, but I think there's a few caution flags with it. A, I still think that even though TikTok was able to offer that, there's still deeper search functionality that went into how Google got to be as good as it is, even going back thinking about 20 years ago about like why Google succeeded where Lycos and AltaVista and all those other go.com, .com era search engines didn't work. So I don't know if TikTok has all of that baked in to really go beyond just, you know, people like me looking for random purchases that they want to look through here or there or just want to look up a certain topic. And I also think the other bigger, more important pieces, the misinformation, and just being able to correct for that because that's already been an issue on TikTok. And I think that could potentially continue if there isn't some way to relegate what's happening in search. So, high likelihood success, but still some trepidation.  [00:17:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, this one is one I'm actually a little bit more excited about. I do think it's really interesting, like in the sense of search, because it is something that we naturally do more. I first started to search on social media using Instagram. And I think they've even done a greater job of like adding more functionality to do that search, whether it's by location and showing you things surrounding that location or even venues or event spaces. So I think that it's a growing feature and a great feature. Like you said, the reviews, whether people sought them to be that way or just inherently more, right, they're showing you video. Most times they're talking through it and you can just consume and walk away with a more educated viewpoint for a time that's favorable, right? A 30-second or 1-minute video can really give you a lot of feedback about whatever you're searching. I think, honestly, this is where a TikTok should spend some time doubling down. I think we want to see more of that functionality from them playing around with maybe the highest use cases, whether that's locations or certain venues, or even like festivals. As I think about it, like, I see so often on TikTok, like you can see a certain event from multiple vantage points and understanding what it's like at a festival from someone in VIP versus general admission versus backstage, even, right? Like, Rolling Loud, you see, like, every single vantage point, even sometimes down to the artist manager with them. So I think, like, them doubling down on a few use cases that really highlight the immersiveness of search is something that excites me. And I think just naturally follows up on what the users are already doing on the platform.  [00:19:02] Dan Runcie: That ties into the another announcement I saw from them about enhancing its ability to search for things locally, or being able to find things from that level because to your point if you are seeing multiple vantage points at Rolling Loud or at Coachella, you may want to meet up with someone that is there, or you might be able to see their vantage point. You might have times I've been to a music festival and it's like, where are you? I'm at the main stage. But what part of the main stage, you know, they got this quarter over here, they got that quarter, but if someone could just do a quick, like, boom. And maybe that could be even easier than them trying to send me a FaceTime video or something like that, where there's no service, but if they could at least post it up on TikTok or wherever, then it could be like, okay, I see your angle. I'll be there. I'll come see you in a minute. [00:19:44] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think that's great. And to that point, too, it kind of like puts on other users in terms of like, okay, wow, I didn't enjoy my experience at like Rolling Loud 'cause I was GA. So maybe VIP is worth it to me or I should consider doing that. And so I actually think more artists should be embracing and recognizing that search feature. The only thing is too is because so many people are using it, you in real-time, right, seem to get updates. So like, Kizz Daniel who's come under fire in Tanzania for not showing up to his performance. I already, like in my mind was like, well, Kizz Daniel was four hours late to his DC show. And how did I know that? Or DC or New York? I'm sorry, but how did I know that? Like, because I saw it on TikTok and so that's like twice in a row. So how likely am I as a fan to justify the cost of a ticket in the event that he is going to be near me? So I think it's like a good maybe transparency or accountability measure. But with that search, we maybe do sometimes need to recognize like, what do they say that like, people are most likely to post or leave reviews when they either have a really great experience or a really bad experience. And so sometimes you might not just get what the true experience is in the case of like a service-based search.  [00:21:02] Dan Runcie: That's true. That's a really good point. And that goes back to the quality of the results and how they can find a way to measure that piece 'cause I think that's the piece that ties back into why Google has been good at what it does over its competitors. So that TikToks can actually survive and not, you know, become someone else that may do video search even better.  [00:21:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. And maybe, you know, to the extent they would consider this, like, there's an opportunity for collaboration, right? Like Google's done a great job of, you know, when you ask certain questions, they have a definitive answer, but they also pull like multiple sources. And so what if, like, on a Google search, you search a restaurant and you're also seeing like TikToks in the area? I think the aggregation of that repository of information could be really great. And also a way for them to continue to like maintain their dominance in search.  [00:21:55] Dan Runcie: Let’s take a quick break to hear a word from this week’s sponsor.  [00:22:00] Dan Runcie: Definitely. So the next one, this one's interesting, music distribution. TikTok recently launched SoundOn, which is a service that in many ways is set to compete with a lot of the music distributors. And I think similarly, it could be seen as its opportunity to capture its top of funnel attention as well. You already have the artists, why not make it easier for artists to use your platform, to distribute the music that they have? What are your thoughts on this one?  [00:22:31] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, and this isn't personal, but I'm just not really excited by music distribution. Nowadays, like in a lot of ways we're listening to a song on a streaming platform is a commodity, right? Like listening to Drake on Apple Music sounds the same as, like, Spotify. I feel that way with music distribution, like, as a consumer, the consumers have no idea, right? They just know they go to their streaming platform and the song is there. The reverse engineering of how it got there and the back end is really not of much interest to them. On the artist side or for them to do this, I think it requires a really deeper investment in artist education. And so I'm curious to see, you know, especially as they double down on creator programs and things of that nature how willing they are to invest both on a content and community side, but also a capital side, in artist education to incentivize users to distribute through that platform. When you think about switching costs in terms of getting set up on a new platform and just probably some of the like new things you have to adjust to by doing it. I feel very underwhelmed hearing about this, and I'm really curious to see how it goes.  [00:23:39] Dan Runcie: I think you called it right in the beginning. Music distribution is a tough business. It is purely a commodity at this point. And I think you can win a few ways. You win by trying to achieve massive scale with it, which Distrokid clearly has just given everything else. But if you don't have that scale, you try to find something unique to position yourself with. I think we've seen that a bit with United Masters, but even that's a bit of a unique business model because, A, they've done a bunch of partnerships with different platforms and companies in sports and entertainment to try to use that as a way both to attract artists and give them an opportunity. But it's also attached to an ad agency with translation, which essentially can, you know, offset any costs or anything like that if there are already losses that come through with the business. So that part of it is unique there. But then even with some of the other services, I think a lot of them have adapted their business models over time because that customer service piece is so timely. It's so expensive. And yeah, when you have an artist that maybe generated less than $20,000 a year, and they're calling your service every other week because they're trying to feed their supporters and making sure that every one of their fans can get their music. How do you justify that cost when you want to be able to support the fans? But the economics of it don't make sense if you're also trying to compete with Distrokid where it costs very little money to be able to use their service on a regular basis. And the same could be said about TuneCore and the others. So it's a tough business to enter.  [00:25:16] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think, you know, artists and management teams don't really have any particular affiliation to, you know, to like any platform. Maybe there are things that they like about certain platforms or that keep them there. But when you talk to artists and management teams, it's kind of just this is what we use, it works, it gets the job done. And it's not an area of the business as long as things are working, they're going to particularly spend a lot of time overly evaluating.  [00:25:42] Dan Runcie: Right. The next piece of this and the next thing that TikTok's been trying to do is ticketing. And while this is less of a big initiative the way they have it right now, it's an integration with a Ticketmaster who, of course, owns most of the medium size to large venues from a ticketing operation, given their relationship with Live Nation. I have to imagine that TikTok's ultimate stream would actually be trying to do what we just saw from Spotify to try to launch its own ticketing service. But even that has plenty of issues and challenges there, but what's your take on at least this first step of the Ticketmaster integration for TikTok and where it could go from here? [00:26:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. On the ticketing side, it's interesting. And just like having a background in venture and tech and startups, like, I've seen a lot of folks try to solve ticketing in many areas, right? The curation that comes with ticketing, ticketing from all over the world and in different currencies, and just a better user experience overall. I will say while I don't think I'm, like, particularly mad at TikTok's, like, foray into ticketing, I do think it's a missed opportunity to probably focus on like events that have organically grown through the platform. And something that's like so interesting is I think you've seen more and more promoters or even event producers, like really like leverage TikTok to create those events and grow their followings in their community. And that's not what TikTok's ticketing platform is really targeted with as evidenced by, you know, a partnership with Ticketmaster. And so while I feel like it's somewhere in the direction, I do think it could be a bit more directionally accurate by focusing on, kind of the, yeah, the smaller organic events that just naturally have grown through TikTok and like TikTok partnering with those events to help users produce more content and like, it can truly be mutually beneficial in a way that I think some of those event organizers would welcome. And so while I could understand why they went for the validity and reputation that comes with a bigger brand, such as Ticketmaster, I think they could have got more bang for their buck with a smaller, more targeted partnership with folks that already found interesting use cases to grow ticketing for the respective events. [00:27:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like there's a bit of a balance there because I hear you and I do think that it ideally would be, yeah, great for them to double down on the creative uses of the, especially some of the more emerging artists that are using this platform to bring folks together, right? Almost similar to what you may see people trying to do, whether it's seeing things virtually in Twitch or bringing those types of audiences in real life to particular things. I think that's really cool and unique. I do feel that for TikTok though, specifically with what we're seeing them do on the music side, in the back of my mind I always wonder, okay, if it weren't for Doja Cat and Megan Thee Stallion and some of these other major artists that are using the platform, what percentage of their impact is making up the overall pie of TikTok Music? Just thinking about that, they had that pie chart from a few years back about the genres and how hip-hop was over-indexed and how Megan Thee Stallion was the most popular artist. So if you're trying to cater to the biggest artist on your platform, you know, Megan Thee Stallion and Doja Cat are definitely at the Ticketmaster level of what they're doing. So if they are going to have an event, could you have something that keeps them in, right, because I think that the more organic things that we've seen likely are more of a direct competition to what we see from Eventbrite, let's say, which I think is much more in that sweet spot of everything from like a birthday party up until you get to like, you know, a small club concert or event, right? But then obviously Ticketmaster is everything else. So yeah, it's like, my heart wants to be like, oh yeah, stay with the types of cool events you've had. But also just thinking about how YouTube leaned into its biggest customers and like, if you're TikTok then yeah, it's the Megs, it's the Dojas, and ones like that.  [00:29:38] Denisha Kuhlor: That is interesting and I think a good corollary. Maybe it does, like, trickle down on more of like a hybrid approach. Yeah, that's interesting.  [00:29:46] Dan Runcie: I do think this taps back into something that you had mentioned before just about the platform itself and as this platform continues to grow, where does the loyalty sit for the consumer, right, whether it's with the artist or with the platform.  [00:30:03] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I think this is such a big thing, right, and that comes with building a fan base or even just like your notoriety on TikTok. You see the changes that were made to Instagram and kind of everybody from the Kardashians, right, calling them out. And I think it has become this trend where we have more affinity to the platform and the platform's ability to curate the content than some of these content creators themselves. And in a world where I think these content creators are so driven to following the algorithm and getting promoted by the algorithm, what they don't realize is kind of the uniformity in content that is created. Even when it comes down to, like, some of the events or experiences or those types of videos, sometimes, like if you've seen one, you've seen them all. And I think that's why there's other creators, whether it’s, like, more comedian-focused or other topics that really excel because it forces them to kind of have to do something different, even if they do have to be relatable. And so unfortunately I think that, you know, artists who are employing TikTok and kind of using this, especially as they build their name and their brand, need to think a lot about like, okay, I have X amount of followers on TikTok, but the barrier to entry to get someone to follow you on TikTok looks very different compared to other platforms. And then taking that a step further, it's like, what does that mean? Because while people might like you, how willing are they to migrate to another platform? They ultimately have that ultimate affinity and loyalty, in my opinion, to TikTok.  [00:31:38] Dan Runcie: I couldn't agree more, and it makes me think about how I use these apps today. For instance, we're recording this now August 26th, and this is a few hours after DJ Khaled released his album and Jay-Z had his four-minute-long verse on GOD DID. And I've seen everyone from ESPN's account to all of the hip-hop blogs and everyone else posting about this. And of course, you get it. And it's all these memes you see about people posting, okay, what Hov did on this track and they're getting photos of LeBron's best games or LeBron's game six against the Boston Celtics and things like that. But I bring that up because speaks to the uniformity of how all of these platforms or all these accounts on these platforms end up doing the same types of things because they know it works and they know what is effective. And it comes to the point now, when I'm scrolling through Instagram, I don't really know who the account is that is there that's posting something that I see unless it's something that's super specific to that person, right? Like if a friend is posting something from, you know, one of their kids starting in kindergarten, then it's like, okay, I know that that only comes from you. But if someone's posting something that's happening in media or something, that's happening in the news, you have to, like, look at that account at the top to really know who it is. And I think that's something they probably got from TikTok more so that, unless you're really looking to see where that account's coming from, it's a bit hidden now, right? Like that's part of, I know some of the frustration people had had, whether it's with Google searches or how social media was sharing links and they made all the links look the same, whether it's something from The Wall Street Journal or your friend's blog, right? And it kind of goes back to that point.  [00:33:18] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. And it probably has like real implications for the creator economy now that we're talking about it, like, I think, you know, living in New York, I see, I like casually probably see a few TikTok creators a month and maybe even sometimes I follow them. But you know, what's interesting? Like, rather than noting, other than noting to myself, like, oh, I follow them on TikTok, kind of the like je nais se quois or like the magic of like, oh my God, like I'm seeing this person in real life feels like it's disappeared a bit to me in a way that used to exist with YouTube or some of these other platforms where it felt like a weird, like breaking of the screen. But now that everybody's behind the screen and as a result, even some of the content they're showing is so accessible. I do think it probably, like, leads to this dynamic of where we're just like, okay, let's just see interesting things. The people creating said interesting things are no more interesting in some ways than like you or they just did a great job at doing this. And I see that with, there's a lot of debate and, like, discourse around some of the lifestyle blogs or, you know, like people showing their lifestyle, like waking up in the morning, like obviously, you had to set the camera up before to do that. But a lot of folks in the comments argue like this is just a type of content. Like, it's a type of cinematography that people like to view and people like to see. And so as a result, these people are continuing to make these videos, but if that's just a type of content that people like to see, TikTok is simply going to provide that content all the time, regardless of really any affiliation to one creator, which makes it a lot tougher on these creators, I think, to build these networks and conversely artists. [00:34:55] Dan Runcie: Right, and this brings me back to the whole issues that people have with Web 2.0 to begin with and why they wanted to be able to solve some of this with Web 3.0. It's because the platforms commoditize your content, and then in return, they're the ones that hold the power.  [00:35:10] Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I think though folks have to be honest. In some ways, it's what the user likes or what the, yeah, the users do like this because if not, you know, we're long past exclusives being standard in the industry, but if not the exclusives would've worked. Like having, you know, Chance the Rapper's album on Apple Music for two weeks, that would work. But the industry shied away from that because ultimately consumers cared more about choice and the ability to choose and experience and be exposed to all types of artists. And so I do think it's a dangerous game because it doesn't recognize like that's why malls exist, right? Like, you go and you want to go to multiple stores. And so I do think sometimes while I understand and recognize and very much like honor the need to, you know, differentiate and be able to have your core audience and provide to those things, I think we'd be remiss if we also didn't realize, like, natural human behavior comes from choice and like the brevity of choice. And so that's sometimes the interesting thing between Web 2.0 and even Web 3.0 and with crypto, for me, because ultimately, like, the barrier to entry is so high, right, to get someone, a true fan to download an artist NFT because that insinuates their true fans. And I think a lot of artists have actually had to face the music in some ways with realizing their perceived fan base isn't as big as they thought and the mechanism to realize that has been some of these drops. [00:36:40] Dan Runcie: Well said, well said. The engagement piece and what you need to have a true fan is harder than people think, so, yeah, I couldn't agree more. Well, we're getting to the tail end, but before we close things out, we have to talk about the elephant in the room for TikTok, and that is its geopolitical standing and all of the things that it wants to do while, whether or not they will be successful, a lot of it depends on the company's viability in the US and whether or not it's current status, especially given the fact that the Chinese government does have this data and there are unknown questions about what that means, what it can do with this data, how do you see this piece it? [00:37:22] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think it's tricky in some ways, because, you know, as consumers, we're now kind of privy to the implications of tech and big data. And even just being on our phones, being on our phones in general, what I will say is and a lot of the like research indicates that true, like avid TikTok users are just, like, hooked in a way where they don't or they might say to you they don't care. Now how much is that true, I guess we'll find out. But I do think it's concerning because maybe to some extent, we don't even fully realize everything and all the factors that are at play here, right? Like, you're just giving that summary, I'm like, whoa. But as a user coming on every day, you're not thinking about that. And so often with big data and some of these platforms, in a way, you don't realize just the implications it had until it was too late, right? Until we're now talking about the ramifications of a platform existing in that way. And so I think it's going to be really interesting to see how, seriously consumers want to take it and beyond consumers, like the US, the US in general. I mean, I would be remiss if I didn't say that some of the data is concerning, right, learning about some of the data TikTok has access to is concerning. But ultimately like as more and more people post and the ecosystem grows larger and there's now 10-minute videos and your favorite artists are on there and they have a streaming platform and all these things in this ecosystem, it starts to get hard to really stray away. And so I think that's going to be a challenge because it feels like it almost has to be a collective push for folks to disintermediate from the platform. But I'm really curious your thoughts on this, too. [00:39:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So the first attempt of this was in fall 2020. So it was around two years ago at this point, when Trump had tried to shut down TikTok. That didn't work for a number of reasons. There were a number of things going on in the world that the attention just wasn't there. And I don't think that the argument was made in a concise and effective way that could have necessarily gotten the job done. And TikTok had other challenges at the time, Kevin Mayer had his short term and then he had left shortly after. So there were a number of issues there. This though, I think that even though you're starting to hear some senators say certain things about it, I think things will be pretty mum, I would guess, until the 2022 midterm elections coming up just 'cause think from a strategic perspective, they want to keep momentum on things that they can confirm can get votes. So while I think I've probably heard more of the concern, if I'm being honest, coming from democratic senators, their biggest concern right now is okay, how can we continue to try to celebrate Joe Biden's victory so that they can not lose seat coming up with this election, I feel like. And because of that, like, we kind of see how this whole thing plays out. I do think though that we could be facing a potential situation where it's almost like the Facebook thing where people know that this is an issue, but it's not going to happen proactively. It happens reactively. It's going to be like, when shit hits the fan and then people are going to be like, oh shit, now we need to do something.  [00:40:27] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly. Out of curiosity, how do you think TikTok, and I'm sure it'll vary, right, but how do you think TikTok is going to be used with the upcoming election cycle?  [00:40:37] Dan Runcie: Oh, good question. I don't see it impacting 2022 as much, but I could see it playing a factor more so in 2024 because I just think that even though there's plenty at stake coming up with this election, the presidential elections always get more in place. I do think that, especially as this group of voters does tend to grow and as more and more older people do get on TikTok, a lot of the same types of activities and nefarious behavior that we saw on Facebook here is going to make its way onto. TikTok. The bigger challenge is though, I think, it's even tougher to navigate all those things. I mean, we even saw that there was misinformation back in 2020 when you had a lot of the Black Lives Matter uprisings and people, they were censoring certain things related to those hashtags. So I do think that those things are going to cause big problems. I think the difference though, and this is part of it is that when these issues happen for Facebook, it's one thing if you have mark Zuckerberg coming to Congress and it can kind of be this thing where he could be media training, he can kind of have these like, you know, haha moments where it's like, Senator, we sell ads, that's how we make money. That doesn't exactly work with the Chinese government in the same way 'cause I don't think that that type of congressional hearing would necessarily work in the same way. So it would have to be some type of, you know, harder crackdown that happens with it. So, yeah, it's tough. I feel like we're not going to see anything actually happen until shit does hit the fan. And unfortunately, that could be the 2024 presidential election in the US, but maybe it could be something sooner.  [00:42:19] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, no, we'll definitely have to see how it plays out. I also think we could potentially see, like, new candidates that come to the result from easily being able to build followings on a platform like TikTok. So I'm curious to see what, like, TikTok- native candidates emerge as well.  [00:42:36] Dan Runcie: Right, like kind of like how Obama was the Facebook champion in 2000.  [00:42:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly.  [00:42:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's funny, right? Because I feel like, you know, back then it was like, oh, look at all the great things that Facebook could do with 2008. And just, I think given some of the political leanings at the time, but then 2016 in many ways was a very opposite case with it. So I do feel like we're a bit more jaded and cynical of the powers of social media than we were then. But there is always a candidate that rises up with these things, that does these things, right? Like, I don't know, thinking back to the days of candidates that are just entering a different thing or new platform, whether it's Bill Clinton going on the Arsenio Hall Show playing his saxophone or something like that. Like, who's going to be that on TikTok? I don't know. I don't follow any politicians on TikTok. I'm sure they have accounts, but I'm sure they'll probably be doing that. And who knows? They'll probably have a debate on Hot Ones for all I know.  [00:43:35] Denisha Kuhlor: It's definitely going to be interesting.  [00:43:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, this was great. We covered a bunch in this, so we'll definitely have to revisit this topic at some point. And we'll see how TikTok succeeds over this for the next few months. I think we both have our internal scorecards ready, but we'll definitely have to touch base on this again at some point.  [00:43:54] Denisha Kuhlor: Agree. Thanks so much for having me. [00:43:56] Dan Runcie: For sure. Thank you. [00:43:58] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 09 Sep 2022 08:00:00 -0000 TikTok Wants to Takeover. Will it Succeed? full Dan Runcie TikTok has reshaped the Internet in under a three-year span, but if its parent company, ByteDance, has its way, the platform’s dominance is just getting started. This week I brought Stan founder Denisha Kuhlor back onto the show to discuss TikTok’s ambitious plans for total media domination. In the past few months, TikTok has announced plans for several new features — each aimed at competing with current media giants such as Google, Spotify, and Ticketmaster. Features include extending video-length capacity to 10 minutes, the TikTok Music streaming service, better internal search capabilities, and a ticketing platform, among many others. Recent history in Western culture is not kind to companies trying to be an all-in-one platform. Google and Facebook stumbles come to mind. To predict how TikTok might fare, Denisha and I hit the new features point-by-point, weighing TikTok’s advantages and disadvantages at breaking into each. Here’s our main talking points:  [0:50] TikTok’s masterplan [7:02] Prediction: 10-minute-long TikTok videos [11:50] Prediction: TikTok music streaming service [15:43] Prediction: Enhanced TikTok search [22:00] Prediction: SoundOn music distribution [25:42] Prediction: In-app ticketing  [29:46] Are consumers creator or platform loyal? [33:18] TikTok’s impact on creator economy  [37:22] TikTok’s geopolitical issues Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: It has become this trend where we have more affinity to the platform and the platform's ability to curate the content than some of these content creators themselves. And in a world where I think these content creators are so driven to following the algorithm and getting promoted by the algorithm, what they don't realize is kind of the uniformity in content that is created.   [00:00:30] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:50] Dan Runcie: All right. We're joined again today by Denisha Kuhlor, who is the founder and CEO of Stan. And today we're going to talk all about TikTok. And TikTok has been a topic I know you and I have talked about offline, we've both covered it and have our opinions on it, but I want to talk today about talk's grand plan to try to take over everything. Just to name a few headlines from the past couple of months, TikTok is planning to extend into 10-minute long videos. It is launching its own music distribution service called SoundOn. It filed a trademark for its own streaming service called TikTok Music. They are enhancing their search function to identify key terms. They're also adding in a text-to-image option as well so that people can start to do that. And it sounds like a lot, the company has grown quite a bit, so it's understandable. But do we think that TikTok is going to be able to do all of these things? What's your thought?  [00:01:47] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So TikTok's been really interesting to watch these last few months and honestly, really from inception, my initial hunch is that it's hard to do a lot of things well. And as TikTok grows and somewhat through replication and also a bit through innovation, I do think they're going to struggle to really get to scale for all the new features that they want to launch.  [00:02:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think the tough thing with this, and it's something that has been ingrained with big tech companies for a while is when the big social network grows and they have this huge following. TikTok now is the fastest to reach 1 billion monthly active users. We can see the trajectory of it potentially getting to be as big as Facebook is now. And Facebook, of course, is another company that has tried and is still trying to do every possible thing under the sun. But I think the part that's important is there are a few examples when these companies have succeeded. Instagram copying Snapchat is of course the primary example that people often look back to, but more often than not, most of these attempts don't actually work that well. And one of the reasons they don't work as well is because they don't necessarily solve a true need that the core users are looking for to be solved from that app. And I think that's one of the important things about Instagram Story specifically because Instagram Stories copy Snapchat worked because Instagram already had a hub of influencers as its core users. And these core users wanted to be able to both post pictures, but they also didn't want to feel the pressure of needing to have this polished picture that was on their feed all of the time. So their thought was, okay, if they could copy this feed that they see Snapchat's doing, they already had the core users there and having something that's more ephemeral. It can go away in 24 hours was perfect. It worked as good as you could probably expect it to. And honestly, it worked better than Snapchat because Instagram already had the home base of those core users whereas Snapchat, at the time, they had a bit of penetration from Gen Z, a bit of DJ Khaled here and there, but it just wasn't to that same level. And I think when you look at a lot of the other attempts that Facebook has tried to copy from others and even Instagram as well with seeing with Reels, that's the piece that I go back to. If these successes and these copycat attempts haven't worked, it's usually because there's some type of disconnect between what the core users on that app are looking for and whether or not that new feature helps them do that. [00:04:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Totally. And I think it creates a culture even internally for these organizations of duplication versus innovation, right? So now you see these organizations going and seeking the desire to duplicate and get to market as quickly as possible, whereas before they had no choice but to be innovative. And to do that, I think they really had to listen to their users and the folks on the app. So it also just even changes, in a way, the culture of what the app is about because now folks are so used to see or expecting to see things that have already been done before, rather than excitement towards really where the platform could take things.  [00:05:01] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's interesting because, on one hand, I do understand the aspect of copying what's already successful. You see it's there and you know that you have those users on your platform already. So why not make an attempt, why not use your resources, especially because of how much money these companies print on ads, then, yeah, you could take the chance with Google having its Google X or Facebook opening up its own VC firm or in many ways, treating all these new initiatives as its own VC firm. But to your point, you do lose the innovation and that's exactly why these apps became relevant in the first place. They offered something newer. They did it in a truly unique way. And when you think about why TikTok has blown up, the genius of it is that For You page. They made it so frictionless to be able to stay entertained, to scroll. You don't have to think about who to follow. You don't need to do any of those things. And that is its biggest strength, but I think it also makes it very challenging to have any type of new feature that is harder or requires more user- input or more activity than the mindless scrolling that has worked in its favor up to this point. [00:06:11] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I completely agree. I feel like the For You page really was the magic and to, in some ways, see them stray away from that, or even improving that in other ways does feel a little unfortunate. Some of the features that you listed, while exciting, I think are just not necessary in the sense that so many other folks are out there doing it. But it will be interesting to see how it fits within maybe the grand scheme or the grand vision for TikTok users and creators. I mean, when it comes down to maybe offering a more seamless experience, then it gets a little bit more interesting. But how big of a problem is that right now for creators, especially when you think about, like, some of the plays towards distribution and features around that? The problems don't seem prevalent enough to justify the investment. But maybe there's a grand vision within all of that, in which it makes more sense.  [00:07:02] Dan Runcie: So let's break those down. Let's go through each of 'em. Let's start first with TikTok extending into 10-minute videos. I do feel like this is probably the least friction out of each of them, but what's your thought on this expansion and clearly a move to compete more directly with YouTube?  [00:07:18] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think this one is interesting because it really, in some ways, is probably the least painful in the sense that if content is compelling enough, you could argue that an individual is just going to keep watching, if the initial, you know, piece of content is compelling enough. What actually is, like, somewhat fascinating to me is that in some ways you could argue that TikTok took away or has hindered people's ability to focus for that long of time. So going to like the corollary of now having 10-minute videos, I do think will be interesting 'cause it's like a different habit, right? Even just focusing on something for 10 minutes versus like 6 seconds is a very different habit. So to see how or to see what type of users actually adapt to that, I think it will be interesting. I do think though there'll probably be some niche communities that emerge as a result of that feature who do want to take deep dives much to content, right? There's folks that like read casually about the music industry and then folks that like really, I think, deep dive, much as a testament to Trapital's content. And so I do think, like, some interesting, like, subsections of the feature will rise. However, I think the bulk of the users aren't even, like, able to watch a video for that long. [00:08:33] Dan Runcie: I think that if it is extending the videos into that length, I agree with you. This is the least friction one. I think it does have the highest likelihood of success. But if I'm thinking about music videos specifically or something that ends up being at least that length, it changes the format to look like what the videos for the most successful YouTubers often look like and the science that goes behind that. I'm picturing what NBA YoungBoy does in the beginning of his videos or even someone like MrBeast. There's some hook there that gives you some tease and that keeps you engaged, just to make sure that you end up watching the whole thing to see what it is. So I feel like if artists start creating music videos or start creating videos in general to be more like 10 minutes. And I think the format of how those videos look will be a lot different and everything will be how do we keep people engaged so that, okay, if we keep them for the first 15 seconds, how do you get them for the next 15 seconds and after that. Like, you can't have these long buildups that I think you can have for certain types of videos on YouTube, just give the audience. But I think it will change things in that format. No different than when MTV blew up, there was a type of video vibe that people tried to go after. I think that if this is the route that TikTok is really trying to go. I think we may see videos lead more into that where, yeah, everyone does start creating videos where you may look like you're trying to be a YouTuber. You're trying to be a TikTok dancer, whatever it is. But I feel like that's where it could head if it's as successful as it could be.  [00:10:04] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, that's actually really interesting in the sense that a lot of folks, like, point to their desire to use TikTok because it does feel like less polished, in a way more authentic. I was listening to a podcast where a TikToker says she makes more content on TikTok because she has to like, yeah, just be less prepared in a way or prepare herself to get on TikTok in the way you would for on Instagram. So I think if that does happen, it'll probably have an effect they don't want, which is a longer timeline to people creating and posting content. And like, just a harder barrier to entry because now folks will feel like, well, I don't have all the things needed to start a TikTok or to really start posting on TikTok, which is really against, I think what the platform did in its early days.  [00:10:50] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah, you're right. That whole instant, making it easy as possible is part of it. It almost brings me back to Vine to an extent. Maybe that's a better comparison for what this looks like 'cause of course someone like a MrBeast or NBA YoungBoy, they have big teams at this point. But some would be able to take a Vine and having this whole narrative story in that 6-second, 7-second clip, maybe it's getting a bit back to that. But even that takes time and there's clearly a difference between that. And, you know, while Vine was popular, it didn't blow up the way that TikTok has blown up. So I feel like you're right. It may change the app in a way that users aren't ready for. But we'll see. I obviously know that this is kind of what happens when you're trying to do everything. You're going to risk having some type of frustration that comes from the core users.  [00:11:37] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Much to your point, I do think there will be a really active, like, community or communities around that in which like 10 minutes of content works really well and TikTok is just like an easy medium to do that  [00:11:50] Dan Runcie: For sure. All right. The second one here, this one I will be interested to dive into. TikTok Music and TikTok filing this trademark. It clearly wants to launch its own music streaming service. We had heard rumors about ByteDance, TikTok's parent company, wanting to do this, but how do you see this one playing out? [00:12:09] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, this one, I just kind of felt like, okay, like another music streaming service You know, one, I don't think people realize or really think through just like how complex streaming services are as a business. I mean, thankfully, you know, a lot of platforms have kind of, pioneered some of the heavy lifting that came with making deals with labels and really like getting the content onto the platform. But that's all still to be said that it's a very unique and complex business model that's driven on another party, right? And how another party feels about giving you access to your content? What does seem somewhat interesting about it is, in the same way that TikTok democratizes content creation and the barrier to entry to post, you could probably argue that it in a way, democratizes that for music, and so more artists are able to get more volume or traction as a result. And so I do think if they focus on maybe content from newer creators or newer musicians who don't necessarily have some of that on the platform, that could be interesting, like in terms of a new streaming platform being able to get access to these independent artists at rates that could be favorable. I think that's interesting, but I don't know if that works at scale. And frankly, like, songs from independent artists, I don't think, is enough to keep a consumer satiated. And there's an even harder barrier to entry to have two streaming platforms at once.  [00:13:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, this is the one I'm probably the most skeptical of its success and for very similar reasons. Say what you want about Spotify. I know people have a number of issues about how that platform is operated and how it distributes its money. But the fact that it's helped the music industry, A, get to this point, says something and just the type of deals it's been able to negotiate to make it all work the way that it has that's enabled all the other types of revenue-generating opportunities that have came from it. And then additionally, it's hard to get to that point. Again, you may not agree with all the decisions that they make, but it is very hard to get to that point. And while I understand, from a strategic perspective, why TikTok may initially want to do this. Of course, if you have and you own the top of funnel that exists in the industry today, why wouldn't you want to at least think about what it could be like to keep that attention on your platform? If your platform is where discovery is happening for both the new fans, for artists to get initial exposure, and for that, you know, the record labels are already seeing, I understand why you would want to think about keeping more of that in-house. But it is a lot tougher than they think for the reasons you mentioned. And also going back to the usability of the app streaming services are a type of consumer experience that requires much more active engagement. People don't just scroll through Spotify and Apple Music. You're going there actively to find something that you're looking for. I mean, I don't even know that many people that are actively relying on that discover weekly playlists to find anything. You're still searching for the things that you want. Even if you're looking for a playlist, it's probably that's much more catered toward the mood or genre that you have. So I think anything that requires that level of agency or action from the consumer side will always be a bit of a challenge for TikTok there. So yeah, I'm skeptical on the success of that one. Unless it tries to go more of the YouTube route of things, which ties back into the 10-minute video things that we talked about before. There's some potential there, but even there, I think there's still some question marks. [00:15:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I'm aligned with you there.  [00:15:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The next one is TikTok Search. A lot of us had seen the viral tweet that someone had. I don't Google I TikTok. And a lot of that spoke to how a lot of folks in Gen Z are looking for information and I get it, I've even done it myself, my wife and I were recently searching to buy a new mattress. And you know what? I didn't want to go through a Google Search and just read some sponsored content about a mattress. I wanted to see a video of someone unboxing this thing to see what it looks like.  [00:16:10] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly.  [00:16:10] Dan Runcie: And TikTok was the quickest place to do that, even quicker than YouTube. YouTube's going to show me a mix of explainer videos and then also concept from the company. I just wanted to see some random person be like, oh, hey, here's what I think about this bed. And here's what I think about that bed. It was quick, it was easy. So I do think that that works, but I think there's a few caution flags with it. A, I still think that even though TikTok was able to offer that, there's still deeper search functionality that went into how Google got to be as good as it is, even going back thinking about 20 years ago about like why Google succeeded where Lycos and AltaVista and all those other go.com, .com era search engines didn't work. So I don't know if TikTok has all of that baked in to really go beyond just, you know, people like me looking for random purchases that they want to look through here or there or just want to look up a certain topic. And I also think the other bigger, more important pieces, the misinformation, and just being able to correct for that because that's already been an issue on TikTok. And I think that could potentially continue if there isn't some way to relegate what's happening in search. So, high likelihood success, but still some trepidation.  [00:17:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, this one is one I'm actually a little bit more excited about. I do think it's really interesting, like in the sense of search, because it is something that we naturally do more. I first started to search on social media using Instagram. And I think they've even done a greater job of like adding more functionality to do that search, whether it's by location and showing you things surrounding that location or even venues or event spaces. So I think that it's a growing feature and a great feature. Like you said, the reviews, whether people sought them to be that way or just inherently more, right, they're showing you video. Most times they're talking through it and you can just consume and walk away with a more educated viewpoint for a time that's favorable, right? A 30-second or 1-minute video can really give you a lot of feedback about whatever you're searching. I think, honestly, this is where a TikTok should spend some time doubling down. I think we want to see more of that functionality from them playing around with maybe the highest use cases, whether that's locations or certain venues, or even like festivals. As I think about it, like, I see so often on TikTok, like you can see a certain event from multiple vantage points and understanding what it's like at a festival from someone in VIP versus general admission versus backstage, even, right? Like, Rolling Loud, you see, like, every single vantage point, even sometimes down to the artist manager with them. So I think, like, them doubling down on a few use cases that really highlight the immersiveness of search is something that excites me. And I think just naturally follows up on what the users are already doing on the platform.  [00:19:02] Dan Runcie: That ties into the another announcement I saw from them about enhancing its ability to search for things locally, or being able to find things from that level because to your point if you are seeing multiple vantage points at Rolling Loud or at Coachella, you may want to meet up with someone that is there, or you might be able to see their vantage point. You might have times I've been to a music festival and it's like, where are you? I'm at the main stage. But what part of the main stage, you know, they got this quarter over here, they got that quarter, but if someone could just do a quick, like, boom. And maybe that could be even easier than them trying to send me a FaceTime video or something like that, where there's no service, but if they could at least post it up on TikTok or wherever, then it could be like, okay, I see your angle. I'll be there. I'll come see you in a minute. [00:19:44] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think that's great. And to that point, too, it kind of like puts on other users in terms of like, okay, wow, I didn't enjoy my experience at like Rolling Loud 'cause I was GA. So maybe VIP is worth it to me or I should consider doing that. And so I actually think more artists should be embracing and recognizing that search feature. The only thing is too is because so many people are using it, you in real-time, right, seem to get updates. So like, Kizz Daniel who's come under fire in Tanzania for not showing up to his performance. I already, like in my mind was like, well, Kizz Daniel was four hours late to his DC show. And how did I know that? Or DC or New York? I'm sorry, but how did I know that? Like, because I saw it on TikTok and so that's like twice in a row. So how likely am I as a fan to justify the cost of a ticket in the event that he is going to be near me? So I think it's like a good maybe transparency or accountability measure. But with that search, we maybe do sometimes need to recognize like, what do they say that like, people are most likely to post or leave reviews when they either have a really great experience or a really bad experience. And so sometimes you might not just get what the true experience is in the case of like a service-based search.  [00:21:02] Dan Runcie: That's true. That's a really good point. And that goes back to the quality of the results and how they can find a way to measure that piece 'cause I think that's the piece that ties back into why Google has been good at what it does over its competitors. So that TikToks can actually survive and not, you know, become someone else that may do video search even better.  [00:21:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. And maybe, you know, to the extent they would consider this, like, there's an opportunity for collaboration, right? Like Google's done a great job of, you know, when you ask certain questions, they have a definitive answer, but they also pull like multiple sources. And so what if, like, on a Google search, you search a restaurant and you're also seeing like TikToks in the area? I think the aggregation of that repository of information could be really great. And also a way for them to continue to like maintain their dominance in search.  [00:21:55] Dan Runcie: Let’s take a quick break to hear a word from this week’s sponsor.  [00:22:00] Dan Runcie: Definitely. So the next one, this one's interesting, music distribution. TikTok recently launched SoundOn, which is a service that in many ways is set to compete with a lot of the music distributors. And I think similarly, it could be seen as its opportunity to capture its top of funnel attention as well. You already have the artists, why not make it easier for artists to use your platform, to distribute the music that they have? What are your thoughts on this one?  [00:22:31] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, and this isn't personal, but I'm just not really excited by music distribution. Nowadays, like in a lot of ways we're listening to a song on a streaming platform is a commodity, right? Like listening to Drake on Apple Music sounds the same as, like, Spotify. I feel that way with music distribution, like, as a consumer, the consumers have no idea, right? They just know they go to their streaming platform and the song is there. The reverse engineering of how it got there and the back end is really not of much interest to them. On the artist side or for them to do this, I think it requires a really deeper investment in artist education. And so I'm curious to see, you know, especially as they double down on creator programs and things of that nature how willing they are to invest both on a content and community side, but also a capital side, in artist education to incentivize users to distribute through that platform. When you think about switching costs in terms of getting set up on a new platform and just probably some of the like new things you have to adjust to by doing it. I feel very underwhelmed hearing about this, and I'm really curious to see how it goes.  [00:23:39] Dan Runcie: I think you called it right in the beginning. Music distribution is a tough business. It is purely a commodity at this point. And I think you can win a few ways. You win by trying to achieve massive scale with it, which Distrokid clearly has just given everything else. But if you don't have that scale, you try to find something unique to position yourself with. I think we've seen that a bit with United Masters, but even that's a bit of a unique business model because, A, they've done a bunch of partnerships with different platforms and companies in sports and entertainment to try to use that as a way both to attract artists and give them an opportunity. But it's also attached to an ad agency with translation, which essentially can, you know, offset any costs or anything like that if there are already losses that come through with the business. So that part of it is unique there. But then even with some of the other services, I think a lot of them have adapted their business models over time because that customer service piece is so timely. It's so expensive. And yeah, when you have an artist that maybe generated less than $20,000 a year, and they're calling your service every other week because they're trying to feed their supporters and making sure that every one of their fans can get their music. How do you justify that cost when you want to be able to support the fans? But the economics of it don't make sense if you're also trying to compete with Distrokid where it costs very little money to be able to use their service on a regular basis. And the same could be said about TuneCore and the others. So it's a tough business to enter.  [00:25:16] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think, you know, artists and management teams don't really have any particular affiliation to, you know, to like any platform. Maybe there are things that they like about certain platforms or that keep them there. But when you talk to artists and management teams, it's kind of just this is what we use, it works, it gets the job done. And it's not an area of the business as long as things are working, they're going to particularly spend a lot of time overly evaluating.  [00:25:42] Dan Runcie: Right. The next piece of this and the next thing that TikTok's been trying to do is ticketing. And while this is less of a big initiative the way they have it right now, it's an integration with a Ticketmaster who, of course, owns most of the medium size to large venues from a ticketing operation, given their relationship with Live Nation. I have to imagine that TikTok's ultimate stream would actually be trying to do what we just saw from Spotify to try to launch its own ticketing service. But even that has plenty of issues and challenges there, but what's your take on at least this first step of the Ticketmaster integration for TikTok and where it could go from here? [00:26:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. On the ticketing side, it's interesting. And just like having a background in venture and tech and startups, like, I've seen a lot of folks try to solve ticketing in many areas, right? The curation that comes with ticketing, ticketing from all over the world and in different currencies, and just a better user experience overall. I will say while I don't think I'm, like, particularly mad at TikTok's, like, foray into ticketing, I do think it's a missed opportunity to probably focus on like events that have organically grown through the platform. And something that's like so interesting is I think you've seen more and more promoters or even event producers, like really like leverage TikTok to create those events and grow their followings in their community. And that's not what TikTok's ticketing platform is really targeted with as evidenced by, you know, a partnership with Ticketmaster. And so while I feel like it's somewhere in the direction, I do think it could be a bit more directionally accurate by focusing on, kind of the, yeah, the smaller organic events that just naturally have grown through TikTok and like TikTok partnering with those events to help users produce more content and like, it can truly be mutually beneficial in a way that I think some of those event organizers would welcome. And so while I could understand why they went for the validity and reputation that comes with a bigger brand, such as Ticketmaster, I think they could have got more bang for their buck with a smaller, more targeted partnership with folks that already found interesting use cases to grow ticketing for the respective events. [00:27:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like there's a bit of a balance there because I hear you and I do think that it ideally would be, yeah, great for them to double down on the creative uses of the, especially some of the more emerging artists that are using this platform to bring folks together, right? Almost similar to what you may see people trying to do, whether it's seeing things virtually in Twitch or bringing those types of audiences in real life to particular things. I think that's really cool and unique. I do feel that for TikTok though, specifically with what we're seeing them do on the music side, in the back of my mind I always wonder, okay, if it weren't for Doja Cat and Megan Thee Stallion and some of these other major artists that are using the platform, what percentage of their impact is making up the overall pie of TikTok Music? Just thinking about that, they had that pie chart from a few years back about the genres and how hip-hop was over-indexed and how Megan Thee Stallion was the most popular artist. So if you're trying to cater to the biggest artist on your platform, you know, Megan Thee Stallion and Doja Cat are definitely at the Ticketmaster level of what they're doing. So if they are going to have an event, could you have something that keeps them in, right, because I think that the more organic things that we've seen likely are more of a direct competition to what we see from Eventbrite, let's say, which I think is much more in that sweet spot of everything from like a birthday party up until you get to like, you know, a small club concert or event, right? But then obviously Ticketmaster is everything else. So yeah, it's like, my heart wants to be like, oh yeah, stay with the types of cool events you've had. But also just thinking about how YouTube leaned into its biggest customers and like, if you're TikTok then yeah, it's the Megs, it's the Dojas, and ones like that.  [00:29:38] Denisha Kuhlor: That is interesting and I think a good corollary. Maybe it does, like, trickle down on more of like a hybrid approach. Yeah, that's interesting.  [00:29:46] Dan Runcie: I do think this taps back into something that you had mentioned before just about the platform itself and as this platform continues to grow, where does the loyalty sit for the consumer, right, whether it's with the artist or with the platform.  [00:30:03] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I think this is such a big thing, right, and that comes with building a fan base or even just like your notoriety on TikTok. You see the changes that were made to Instagram and kind of everybody from the Kardashians, right, calling them out. And I think it has become this trend where we have more affinity to the platform and the platform's ability to curate the content than some of these content creators themselves. And in a world where I think these content creators are so driven to following the algorithm and getting promoted by the algorithm, what they don't realize is kind of the uniformity in content that is created. Even when it comes down to, like, some of the events or experiences or those types of videos, sometimes, like if you've seen one, you've seen them all. And I think that's why there's other creators, whether it’s, like, more comedian-focused or other topics that really excel because it forces them to kind of have to do something different, even if they do have to be relatable. And so unfortunately I think that, you know, artists who are employing TikTok and kind of using this, especially as they build their name and their brand, need to think a lot about like, okay, I have X amount of followers on TikTok, but the barrier to entry to get someone to follow you on TikTok looks very different compared to other platforms. And then taking that a step further, it's like, what does that mean? Because while people might like you, how willing are they to migrate to another platform? They ultimately have that ultimate affinity and loyalty, in my opinion, to TikTok.  [00:31:38] Dan Runcie: I couldn't agree more, and it makes me think about how I use these apps today. For instance, we're recording this now August 26th, and this is a few hours after DJ Khaled released his album and Jay-Z had his four-minute-long verse on GOD DID. And I've seen everyone from ESPN's account to all of the hip-hop blogs and everyone else posting about this. And of course, you get it. And it's all these memes you see about people posting, okay, what Hov did on this track and they're getting photos of LeBron's best games or LeBron's game six against the Boston Celtics and things like that. But I bring that up because speaks to the uniformity of how all of these platforms or all these accounts on these platforms end up doing the same types of things because they know it works and they know what is effective. And it comes to the point now, when I'm scrolling through Instagram, I don't really know who the account is that is there that's posting something that I see unless it's something that's super specific to that person, right? Like if a friend is posting something from, you know, one of their kids starting in kindergarten, then it's like, okay, I know that that only comes from you. But if someone's posting something that's happening in media or something, that's happening in the news, you have to, like, look at that account at the top to really know who it is. And I think that's something they probably got from TikTok more so that, unless you're really looking to see where that account's coming from, it's a bit hidden now, right? Like that's part of, I know some of the frustration people had had, whether it's with Google searches or how social media was sharing links and they made all the links look the same, whether it's something from The Wall Street Journal or your friend's blog, right? And it kind of goes back to that point.  [00:33:18] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. And it probably has like real implications for the creator economy now that we're talking about it, like, I think, you know, living in New York, I see, I like casually probably see a few TikTok creators a month and maybe even sometimes I follow them. But you know, what's interesting? Like, rather than noting, other than noting to myself, like, oh, I follow them on TikTok, kind of the like je nais se quois or like the magic of like, oh my God, like I'm seeing this person in real life feels like it's disappeared a bit to me in a way that used to exist with YouTube or some of these other platforms where it felt like a weird, like breaking of the screen. But now that everybody's behind the screen and as a result, even some of the content they're showing is so accessible. I do think it probably, like, leads to this dynamic of where we're just like, okay, let's just see interesting things. The people creating said interesting things are no more interesting in some ways than like you or they just did a great job at doing this. And I see that with, there's a lot of debate and, like, discourse around some of the lifestyle blogs or, you know, like people showing their lifestyle, like waking up in the morning, like obviously, you had to set the camera up before to do that. But a lot of folks in the comments argue like this is just a type of content. Like, it's a type of cinematography that people like to view and people like to see. And so as a result, these people are continuing to make these videos, but if that's just a type of content that people like to see, TikTok is simply going to provide that content all the time, regardless of really any affiliation to one creator, which makes it a lot tougher on these creators, I think, to build these networks and conversely artists. [00:34:55] Dan Runcie: Right, and this brings me back to the whole issues that people have with Web 2.0 to begin with and why they wanted to be able to solve some of this with Web 3.0. It's because the platforms commoditize your content, and then in return, they're the ones that hold the power.  [00:35:10] Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I think though folks have to be honest. In some ways, it's what the user likes or what the, yeah, the users do like this because if not, you know, we're long past exclusives being standard in the industry, but if not the exclusives would've worked. Like having, you know, Chance the Rapper's album on Apple Music for two weeks, that would work. But the industry shied away from that because ultimately consumers cared more about choice and the ability to choose and experience and be exposed to all types of artists. And so I do think it's a dangerous game because it doesn't recognize like that's why malls exist, right? Like, you go and you want to go to multiple stores. And so I do think sometimes while I understand and recognize and very much like honor the need to, you know, differentiate and be able to have your core audience and provide to those things, I think we'd be remiss if we also didn't realize, like, natural human behavior comes from choice and like the brevity of choice. And so that's sometimes the interesting thing between Web 2.0 and even Web 3.0 and with crypto, for me, because ultimately, like, the barrier to entry is so high, right, to get someone, a true fan to download an artist NFT because that insinuates their true fans. And I think a lot of artists have actually had to face the music in some ways with realizing their perceived fan base isn't as big as they thought and the mechanism to realize that has been some of these drops. [00:36:40] Dan Runcie: Well said, well said. The engagement piece and what you need to have a true fan is harder than people think, so, yeah, I couldn't agree more. Well, we're getting to the tail end, but before we close things out, we have to talk about the elephant in the room for TikTok, and that is its geopolitical standing and all of the things that it wants to do while, whether or not they will be successful, a lot of it depends on the company's viability in the US and whether or not it's current status, especially given the fact that the Chinese government does have this data and there are unknown questions about what that means, what it can do with this data, how do you see this piece it? [00:37:22] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think it's tricky in some ways, because, you know, as consumers, we're now kind of privy to the implications of tech and big data. And even just being on our phones, being on our phones in general, what I will say is and a lot of the like research indicates that true, like avid TikTok users are just, like, hooked in a way where they don't or they might say to you they don't care. Now how much is that true, I guess we'll find out. But I do think it's concerning because maybe to some extent, we don't even fully realize everything and all the factors that are at play here, right? Like, you're just giving that summary, I'm like, whoa. But as a user coming on every day, you're not thinking about that. And so often with big data and some of these platforms, in a way, you don't realize just the implications it had until it was too late, right? Until we're now talking about the ramifications of a platform existing in that way. And so I think it's going to be really interesting to see how, seriously consumers want to take it and beyond consumers, like the US, the US in general. I mean, I would be remiss if I didn't say that some of the data is concerning, right, learning about some of the data TikTok has access to is concerning. But ultimately like as more and more people post and the ecosystem grows larger and there's now 10-minute videos and your favorite artists are on there and they have a streaming platform and all these things in this ecosystem, it starts to get hard to really stray away. And so I think that's going to be a challenge because it feels like it almost has to be a collective push for folks to disintermediate from the platform. But I'm really curious your thoughts on this, too. [00:39:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So the first attempt of this was in fall 2020. So it was around two years ago at this point, when Trump had tried to shut down TikTok. That didn't work for a number of reasons. There were a number of things going on in the world that the attention just wasn't there. And I don't think that the argument was made in a concise and effective way that could have necessarily gotten the job done. And TikTok had other challenges at the time, Kevin Mayer had his short term and then he had left shortly after. So there were a number of issues there. This though, I think that even though you're starting to hear some senators say certain things about it, I think things will be pretty mum, I would guess, until the 2022 midterm elections coming up just 'cause think from a strategic perspective, they want to keep momentum on things that they can confirm can get votes. So while I think I've probably heard more of the concern, if I'm being honest, coming from democratic senators, their biggest concern right now is okay, how can we continue to try to celebrate Joe Biden's victory so that they can not lose seat coming up with this election, I feel like. And because of that, like, we kind of see how this whole thing plays out. I do think though that we could be facing a potential situation where it's almost like the Facebook thing where people know that this is an issue, but it's not going to happen proactively. It happens reactively. It's going to be like, when shit hits the fan and then people are going to be like, oh shit, now we need to do something.  [00:40:27] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly. Out of curiosity, how do you think TikTok, and I'm sure it'll vary, right, but how do you think TikTok is going to be used with the upcoming election cycle?  [00:40:37] Dan Runcie: Oh, good question. I don't see it impacting 2022 as much, but I could see it playing a factor more so in 2024 because I just think that even though there's plenty at stake coming up with this election, the presidential elections always get more in place. I do think that, especially as this group of voters does tend to grow and as more and more older people do get on TikTok, a lot of the same types of activities and nefarious behavior that we saw on Facebook here is going to make its way onto. TikTok. The bigger challenge is though, I think, it's even tougher to navigate all those things. I mean, we even saw that there was misinformation back in 2020 when you had a lot of the Black Lives Matter uprisings and people, they were censoring certain things related to those hashtags. So I do think that those things are going to cause big problems. I think the difference though, and this is part of it is that when these issues happen for Facebook, it's one thing if you have mark Zuckerberg coming to Congress and it can kind of be this thing where he could be media training, he can kind of have these like, you know, haha moments where it's like, Senator, we sell ads, that's how we make money. That doesn't exactly work with the Chinese government in the same way 'cause I don't think that that type of congressional hearing would necessarily work in the same way. So it would have to be some type of, you know, harder crackdown that happens with it. So, yeah, it's tough. I feel like we're not going to see anything actually happen until shit does hit the fan. And unfortunately, that could be the 2024 presidential election in the US, but maybe it could be something sooner.  [00:42:19] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, no, we'll definitely have to see how it plays out. I also think we could potentially see, like, new candidates that come to the result from easily being able to build followings on a platform like TikTok. So I'm curious to see what, like, TikTok- native candidates emerge as well.  [00:42:36] Dan Runcie: Right, like kind of like how Obama was the Facebook champion in 2000.  [00:42:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly.  [00:42:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's funny, right? Because I feel like, you know, back then it was like, oh, look at all the great things that Facebook could do with 2008. And just, I think given some of the political leanings at the time, but then 2016 in many ways was a very opposite case with it. So I do feel like we're a bit more jaded and cynical of the powers of social media than we were then. But there is always a candidate that rises up with these things, that does these things, right? Like, I don't know, thinking back to the days of candidates that are just entering a different thing or new platform, whether it's Bill Clinton going on the Arsenio Hall Show playing his saxophone or something like that. Like, who's going to be that on TikTok? I don't know. I don't follow any politicians on TikTok. I'm sure they have accounts, but I'm sure they'll probably be doing that. And who knows? They'll probably have a debate on Hot Ones for all I know.  [00:43:35] Denisha Kuhlor: It's definitely going to be interesting.  [00:43:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, this was great. We covered a bunch in this, so we'll definitely have to revisit this topic at some point. And we'll see how TikTok succeeds over this for the next few months. I think we both have our internal scorecards ready, but we'll definitely have to touch base on this again at some point.  [00:43:54] Denisha Kuhlor: Agree. Thanks so much for having me. [00:43:56] Dan Runcie: For sure. Thank you. [00:43:58] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. TikTok has reshaped the Internet in under a three-year span, but if its parent company, ByteDance, has its way, the platform’s dominance is just getting started. This week I brought Stan founder Denisha Kuhlor back onto the show to discuss TikTok’s ambitious plans for total media domination.


In the past few months, TikTok has announced plans for several new features — each aimed at competing with current media giants such as Google, Spotify, and Ticketmaster. Features include extending video-length capacity to 10 minutes, the TikTok Music streaming service, better internal search capabilities, and a ticketing platform, among many others.


Recent history in Western culture is not kind to companies trying to be an all-in-one platform. Google and Facebook stumbles come to mind. To predict how TikTok might fare, Denisha and I hit the new features point-by-point, weighing TikTok’s advantages and disadvantages at breaking into each. Here’s our main talking points: 


[0:50] TikTok’s masterplan

[7:02] Prediction: 10-minute-long TikTok videos

[11:50] Prediction: TikTok music streaming service

[15:43] Prediction: Enhanced TikTok search

[22:00] Prediction: SoundOn music distribution

[25:42] Prediction: In-app ticketing 

[29:46] Are consumers creator or platform loyal?

[33:18] TikTok’s impact on creator economy 

[37:22] TikTok’s geopolitical issues


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor

 

 

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TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: It has become this trend where we have more affinity to the platform and the platform's ability to curate the content than some of these content creators themselves. And in a world where I think these content creators are so driven to following the algorithm and getting promoted by the algorithm, what they don't realize is kind of the uniformity in content that is created.  

[00:00:30] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 

[00:00:50] Dan Runcie: All right. We're joined again today by Denisha Kuhlor, who is the founder and CEO of Stan. And today we're going to talk all about TikTok. And TikTok has been a topic I know you and I have talked about offline, we've both covered it and have our opinions on it, but I want to talk today about talk's grand plan to try to take over everything. Just to name a few headlines from the past couple of months, TikTok is planning to extend into 10-minute long videos. It is launching its own music distribution service called SoundOn. It filed a trademark for its own streaming service called TikTok Music. They are enhancing their search function to identify key terms. They're also adding in a text-to-image option as well so that people can start to do that. And it sounds like a lot, the company has grown quite a bit, so it's understandable. But do we think that TikTok is going to be able to do all of these things? What's your thought? 

[00:01:47] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So TikTok's been really interesting to watch these last few months and honestly, really from inception, my initial hunch is that it's hard to do a lot of things well. And as TikTok grows and somewhat through replication and also a bit through innovation, I do think they're going to struggle to really get to scale for all the new features that they want to launch. 

[00:02:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think the tough thing with this, and it's something that has been ingrained with big tech companies for a while is when the big social network grows and they have this huge following. TikTok now is the fastest to reach 1 billion monthly active users. We can see the trajectory of it potentially getting to be as big as Facebook is now. And Facebook, of course, is another company that has tried and is still trying to do every possible thing under the sun. But I think the part that's important is there are a few examples when these companies have succeeded. Instagram copying Snapchat is of course the primary example that people often look back to, but more often than not, most of these attempts don't actually work that well. And one of the reasons they don't work as well is because they don't necessarily solve a true need that the core users are looking for to be solved from that app. And I think that's one of the important things about Instagram Story specifically because Instagram Stories copy Snapchat worked because Instagram already had a hub of influencers as its core users. And these core users wanted to be able to both post pictures, but they also didn't want to feel the pressure of needing to have this polished picture that was on their feed all of the time. So their thought was, okay, if they could copy this feed that they see Snapchat's doing, they already had the core users there and having something that's more ephemeral. It can go away in 24 hours was perfect. It worked as good as you could probably expect it to. And honestly, it worked better than Snapchat because Instagram already had the home base of those core users whereas Snapchat, at the time, they had a bit of penetration from Gen Z, a bit of DJ Khaled here and there, but it just wasn't to that same level. And I think when you look at a lot of the other attempts that Facebook has tried to copy from others and even Instagram as well with seeing with Reels, that's the piece that I go back to. If these successes and these copycat attempts haven't worked, it's usually because there's some type of disconnect between what the core users on that app are looking for and whether or not that new feature helps them do that.

[00:04:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Totally. And I think it creates a culture even internally for these organizations of duplication versus innovation, right? So now you see these organizations going and seeking the desire to duplicate and get to market as quickly as possible, whereas before they had no choice but to be innovative. And to do that, I think they really had to listen to their users and the folks on the app. So it also just even changes, in a way, the culture of what the app is about because now folks are so used to see or expecting to see things that have already been done before, rather than excitement towards really where the platform could take things. 

[00:05:01] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's interesting because, on one hand, I do understand the aspect of copying what's already successful. You see it's there and you know that you have those users on your platform already. So why not make an attempt, why not use your resources, especially because of how much money these companies print on ads, then, yeah, you could take the chance with Google having its Google X or Facebook opening up its own VC firm or in many ways, treating all these new initiatives as its own VC firm. But to your point, you do lose the innovation and that's exactly why these apps became relevant in the first place. They offered something newer. They did it in a truly unique way. And when you think about why TikTok has blown up, the genius of it is that For You page. They made it so frictionless to be able to stay entertained, to scroll. You don't have to think about who to follow. You don't need to do any of those things. And that is its biggest strength, but I think it also makes it very challenging to have any type of new feature that is harder or requires more user- input or more activity than the mindless scrolling that has worked in its favor up to this point.

[00:06:11] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I completely agree. I feel like the For You page really was the magic and to, in some ways, see them stray away from that, or even improving that in other ways does feel a little unfortunate. Some of the features that you listed, while exciting, I think are just not necessary in the sense that so many other folks are out there doing it. But it will be interesting to see how it fits within maybe the grand scheme or the grand vision for TikTok users and creators. I mean, when it comes down to maybe offering a more seamless experience, then it gets a little bit more interesting. But how big of a problem is that right now for creators, especially when you think about, like, some of the plays towards distribution and features around that? The problems don't seem prevalent enough to justify the investment. But maybe there's a grand vision within all of that, in which it makes more sense. 

[00:07:02] Dan Runcie: So let's break those down. Let's go through each of 'em. Let's start first with TikTok extending into 10-minute videos. I do feel like this is probably the least friction out of each of them, but what's your thought on this expansion and clearly a move to compete more directly with YouTube? 

[00:07:18] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think this one is interesting because it really, in some ways, is probably the least painful in the sense that if content is compelling enough, you could argue that an individual is just going to keep watching, if the initial, you know, piece of content is compelling enough. What actually is, like, somewhat fascinating to me is that in some ways you could argue that TikTok took away or has hindered people's ability to focus for that long of time. So going to like the corollary of now having 10-minute videos, I do think will be interesting 'cause it's like a different habit, right? Even just focusing on something for 10 minutes versus like 6 seconds is a very different habit. So to see how or to see what type of users actually adapt to that, I think it will be interesting. I do think though there'll probably be some niche communities that emerge as a result of that feature who do want to take deep dives much to content, right? There's folks that like read casually about the music industry and then folks that like really, I think, deep dive, much as a testament to Trapital's content. And so I do think, like, some interesting, like, subsections of the feature will rise. However, I think the bulk of the users aren't even, like, able to watch a video for that long.

[00:08:33] Dan Runcie: I think that if it is extending the videos into that length, I agree with you. This is the least friction one. I think it does have the highest likelihood of success. But if I'm thinking about music videos specifically or something that ends up being at least that length, it changes the format to look like what the videos for the most successful YouTubers often look like and the science that goes behind that. I'm picturing what NBA YoungBoy does in the beginning of his videos or even someone like MrBeast. There's some hook there that gives you some tease and that keeps you engaged, just to make sure that you end up watching the whole thing to see what it is. So I feel like if artists start creating music videos or start creating videos in general to be more like 10 minutes. And I think the format of how those videos look will be a lot different and everything will be how do we keep people engaged so that, okay, if we keep them for the first 15 seconds, how do you get them for the next 15 seconds and after that. Like, you can't have these long buildups that I think you can have for certain types of videos on YouTube, just give the audience. But I think it will change things in that format. No different than when MTV blew up, there was a type of video vibe that people tried to go after. I think that if this is the route that TikTok is really trying to go. I think we may see videos lead more into that where, yeah, everyone does start creating videos where you may look like you're trying to be a YouTuber. You're trying to be a TikTok dancer, whatever it is. But I feel like that's where it could head if it's as successful as it could be. 

[00:10:04] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, that's actually really interesting in the sense that a lot of folks, like, point to their desire to use TikTok because it does feel like less polished, in a way more authentic. I was listening to a podcast where a TikToker says she makes more content on TikTok because she has to like, yeah, just be less prepared in a way or prepare herself to get on TikTok in the way you would for on Instagram. So I think if that does happen, it'll probably have an effect they don't want, which is a longer timeline to people creating and posting content. And like, just a harder barrier to entry because now folks will feel like, well, I don't have all the things needed to start a TikTok or to really start posting on TikTok, which is really against, I think what the platform did in its early days. 

[00:10:50] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah, you're right. That whole instant, making it easy as possible is part of it. It almost brings me back to Vine to an extent. Maybe that's a better comparison for what this looks like 'cause of course someone like a MrBeast or NBA YoungBoy, they have big teams at this point. But some would be able to take a Vine and having this whole narrative story in that 6-second, 7-second clip, maybe it's getting a bit back to that. But even that takes time and there's clearly a difference between that. And, you know, while Vine was popular, it didn't blow up the way that TikTok has blown up. So I feel like you're right. It may change the app in a way that users aren't ready for. But we'll see. I obviously know that this is kind of what happens when you're trying to do everything. You're going to risk having some type of frustration that comes from the core users. 

[00:11:37] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Much to your point, I do think there will be a really active, like, community or communities around that in which like 10 minutes of content works really well and TikTok is just like an easy medium to do that 

[00:11:50] Dan Runcie: For sure. All right. The second one here, this one I will be interested to dive into. TikTok Music and TikTok filing this trademark. It clearly wants to launch its own music streaming service. We had heard rumors about ByteDance, TikTok's parent company, wanting to do this, but how do you see this one playing out?

[00:12:09] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, this one, I just kind of felt like, okay, like another music streaming service You know, one, I don't think people realize or really think through just like how complex streaming services are as a business. I mean, thankfully, you know, a lot of platforms have kind of, pioneered some of the heavy lifting that came with making deals with labels and really like getting the content onto the platform. But that's all still to be said that it's a very unique and complex business model that's driven on another party, right? And how another party feels about giving you access to your content? What does seem somewhat interesting about it is, in the same way that TikTok democratizes content creation and the barrier to entry to post, you could probably argue that it in a way, democratizes that for music, and so more artists are able to get more volume or traction as a result. And so I do think if they focus on maybe content from newer creators or newer musicians who don't necessarily have some of that on the platform, that could be interesting, like in terms of a new streaming platform being able to get access to these independent artists at rates that could be favorable. I think that's interesting, but I don't know if that works at scale. And frankly, like, songs from independent artists, I don't think, is enough to keep a consumer satiated. And there's an even harder barrier to entry to have two streaming platforms at once. 

[00:13:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, this is the one I'm probably the most skeptical of its success and for very similar reasons. Say what you want about Spotify. I know people have a number of issues about how that platform is operated and how it distributes its money. But the fact that it's helped the music industry, A, get to this point, says something and just the type of deals it's been able to negotiate to make it all work the way that it has that's enabled all the other types of revenue-generating opportunities that have came from it. And then additionally, it's hard to get to that point. Again, you may not agree with all the decisions that they make, but it is very hard to get to that point. And while I understand, from a strategic perspective, why TikTok may initially want to do this. Of course, if you have and you own the top of funnel that exists in the industry today, why wouldn't you want to at least think about what it could be like to keep that attention on your platform? If your platform is where discovery is happening for both the new fans, for artists to get initial exposure, and for that, you know, the record labels are already seeing, I understand why you would want to think about keeping more of that in-house. But it is a lot tougher than they think for the reasons you mentioned. And also going back to the usability of the app streaming services are a type of consumer experience that requires much more active engagement. People don't just scroll through Spotify and Apple Music. You're going there actively to find something that you're looking for. I mean, I don't even know that many people that are actively relying on that discover weekly playlists to find anything. You're still searching for the things that you want. Even if you're looking for a playlist, it's probably that's much more catered toward the mood or genre that you have. So I think anything that requires that level of agency or action from the consumer side will always be a bit of a challenge for TikTok there. So yeah, I'm skeptical on the success of that one. Unless it tries to go more of the YouTube route of things, which ties back into the 10-minute video things that we talked about before. There's some potential there, but even there, I think there's still some question marks.

[00:15:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I'm aligned with you there. 

[00:15:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The next one is TikTok Search. A lot of us had seen the viral tweet that someone had. I don't Google I TikTok. And a lot of that spoke to how a lot of folks in Gen Z are looking for information and I get it, I've even done it myself, my wife and I were recently searching to buy a new mattress. And you know what? I didn't want to go through a Google Search and just read some sponsored content about a mattress. I wanted to see a video of someone unboxing this thing to see what it looks like. 

[00:16:10] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. 

[00:16:10] Dan Runcie: And TikTok was the quickest place to do that, even quicker than YouTube. YouTube's going to show me a mix of explainer videos and then also concept from the company. I just wanted to see some random person be like, oh, hey, here's what I think about this bed. And here's what I think about that bed. It was quick, it was easy. So I do think that that works, but I think there's a few caution flags with it. A, I still think that even though TikTok was able to offer that, there's still deeper search functionality that went into how Google got to be as good as it is, even going back thinking about 20 years ago about like why Google succeeded where Lycos and AltaVista and all those other go.com, .com era search engines didn't work. So I don't know if TikTok has all of that baked in to really go beyond just, you know, people like me looking for random purchases that they want to look through here or there or just want to look up a certain topic. And I also think the other bigger, more important pieces, the misinformation, and just being able to correct for that because that's already been an issue on TikTok. And I think that could potentially continue if there isn't some way to relegate what's happening in search. So, high likelihood success, but still some trepidation. 

[00:17:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, this one is one I'm actually a little bit more excited about. I do think it's really interesting, like in the sense of search, because it is something that we naturally do more. I first started to search on social media using Instagram. And I think they've even done a greater job of like adding more functionality to do that search, whether it's by location and showing you things surrounding that location or even venues or event spaces. So I think that it's a growing feature and a great feature. Like you said, the reviews, whether people sought them to be that way or just inherently more, right, they're showing you video. Most times they're talking through it and you can just consume and walk away with a more educated viewpoint for a time that's favorable, right? A 30-second or 1-minute video can really give you a lot of feedback about whatever you're searching. I think, honestly, this is where a TikTok should spend some time doubling down. I think we want to see more of that functionality from them playing around with maybe the highest use cases, whether that's locations or certain venues, or even like festivals. As I think about it, like, I see so often on TikTok, like you can see a certain event from multiple vantage points and understanding what it's like at a festival from someone in VIP versus general admission versus backstage, even, right? Like, Rolling Loud, you see, like, every single vantage point, even sometimes down to the artist manager with them. So I think, like, them doubling down on a few use cases that really highlight the immersiveness of search is something that excites me. And I think just naturally follows up on what the users are already doing on the platform. 

[00:19:02] Dan Runcie: That ties into the another announcement I saw from them about enhancing its ability to search for things locally, or being able to find things from that level because to your point if you are seeing multiple vantage points at Rolling Loud or at Coachella, you may want to meet up with someone that is there, or you might be able to see their vantage point. You might have times I've been to a music festival and it's like, where are you? I'm at the main stage. But what part of the main stage, you know, they got this quarter over here, they got that quarter, but if someone could just do a quick, like, boom. And maybe that could be even easier than them trying to send me a FaceTime video or something like that, where there's no service, but if they could at least post it up on TikTok or wherever, then it could be like, okay, I see your angle. I'll be there. I'll come see you in a minute.

[00:19:44] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think that's great. And to that point, too, it kind of like puts on other users in terms of like, okay, wow, I didn't enjoy my experience at like Rolling Loud 'cause I was GA. So maybe VIP is worth it to me or I should consider doing that. And so I actually think more artists should be embracing and recognizing that search feature. The only thing is too is because so many people are using it, you in real-time, right, seem to get updates. So like, Kizz Daniel who's come under fire in Tanzania for not showing up to his performance. I already, like in my mind was like, well, Kizz Daniel was four hours late to his DC show. And how did I know that? Or DC or New York? I'm sorry, but how did I know that? Like, because I saw it on TikTok and so that's like twice in a row. So how likely am I as a fan to justify the cost of a ticket in the event that he is going to be near me? So I think it's like a good maybe transparency or accountability measure. But with that search, we maybe do sometimes need to recognize like, what do they say that like, people are most likely to post or leave reviews when they either have a really great experience or a really bad experience. And so sometimes you might not just get what the true experience is in the case of like a service-based search. 

[00:21:02] Dan Runcie: That's true. That's a really good point. And that goes back to the quality of the results and how they can find a way to measure that piece 'cause I think that's the piece that ties back into why Google has been good at what it does over its competitors. So that TikToks can actually survive and not, you know, become someone else that may do video search even better. 

[00:21:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. And maybe, you know, to the extent they would consider this, like, there's an opportunity for collaboration, right? Like Google's done a great job of, you know, when you ask certain questions, they have a definitive answer, but they also pull like multiple sources. And so what if, like, on a Google search, you search a restaurant and you're also seeing like TikToks in the area? I think the aggregation of that repository of information could be really great. And also a way for them to continue to like maintain their dominance in search. 

[00:21:55] Dan Runcie: Let’s take a quick break to hear a word from this week’s sponsor. 

[00:22:00] Dan Runcie: Definitely. So the next one, this one's interesting, music distribution. TikTok recently launched SoundOn, which is a service that in many ways is set to compete with a lot of the music distributors. And I think similarly, it could be seen as its opportunity to capture its top of funnel attention as well. You already have the artists, why not make it easier for artists to use your platform, to distribute the music that they have? What are your thoughts on this one? 

[00:22:31] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, and this isn't personal, but I'm just not really excited by music distribution. Nowadays, like in a lot of ways we're listening to a song on a streaming platform is a commodity, right? Like listening to Drake on Apple Music sounds the same as, like, Spotify. I feel that way with music distribution, like, as a consumer, the consumers have no idea, right? They just know they go to their streaming platform and the song is there. The reverse engineering of how it got there and the back end is really not of much interest to them. On the artist side or for them to do this, I think it requires a really deeper investment in artist education. And so I'm curious to see, you know, especially as they double down on creator programs and things of that nature how willing they are to invest both on a content and community side, but also a capital side, in artist education to incentivize users to distribute through that platform. When you think about switching costs in terms of getting set up on a new platform and just probably some of the like new things you have to adjust to by doing it. I feel very underwhelmed hearing about this, and I'm really curious to see how it goes. 

[00:23:39] Dan Runcie: I think you called it right in the beginning. Music distribution is a tough business. It is purely a commodity at this point. And I think you can win a few ways. You win by trying to achieve massive scale with it, which Distrokid clearly has just given everything else. But if you don't have that scale, you try to find something unique to position yourself with. I think we've seen that a bit with United Masters, but even that's a bit of a unique business model because, A, they've done a bunch of partnerships with different platforms and companies in sports and entertainment to try to use that as a way both to attract artists and give them an opportunity. But it's also attached to an ad agency with translation, which essentially can, you know, offset any costs or anything like that if there are already losses that come through with the business. So that part of it is unique there. But then even with some of the other services, I think a lot of them have adapted their business models over time because that customer service piece is so timely. It's so expensive. And yeah, when you have an artist that maybe generated less than $20,000 a year, and they're calling your service every other week because they're trying to feed their supporters and making sure that every one of their fans can get their music. How do you justify that cost when you want to be able to support the fans? But the economics of it don't make sense if you're also trying to compete with Distrokid where it costs very little money to be able to use their service on a regular basis. And the same could be said about TuneCore and the others. So it's a tough business to enter. 

[00:25:16] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think, you know, artists and management teams don't really have any particular affiliation to, you know, to like any platform. Maybe there are things that they like about certain platforms or that keep them there. But when you talk to artists and management teams, it's kind of just this is what we use, it works, it gets the job done. And it's not an area of the business as long as things are working, they're going to particularly spend a lot of time overly evaluating. 

[00:25:42] Dan Runcie: Right. The next piece of this and the next thing that TikTok's been trying to do is ticketing. And while this is less of a big initiative the way they have it right now, it's an integration with a Ticketmaster who, of course, owns most of the medium size to large venues from a ticketing operation, given their relationship with Live Nation. I have to imagine that TikTok's ultimate stream would actually be trying to do what we just saw from Spotify to try to launch its own ticketing service. But even that has plenty of issues and challenges there, but what's your take on at least this first step of the Ticketmaster integration for TikTok and where it could go from here?

[00:26:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. On the ticketing side, it's interesting. And just like having a background in venture and tech and startups, like, I've seen a lot of folks try to solve ticketing in many areas, right? The curation that comes with ticketing, ticketing from all over the world and in different currencies, and just a better user experience overall. I will say while I don't think I'm, like, particularly mad at TikTok's, like, foray into ticketing, I do think it's a missed opportunity to probably focus on like events that have organically grown through the platform. And something that's like so interesting is I think you've seen more and more promoters or even event producers, like really like leverage TikTok to create those events and grow their followings in their community. And that's not what TikTok's ticketing platform is really targeted with as evidenced by, you know, a partnership with Ticketmaster. And so while I feel like it's somewhere in the direction, I do think it could be a bit more directionally accurate by focusing on, kind of the, yeah, the smaller organic events that just naturally have grown through TikTok and like TikTok partnering with those events to help users produce more content and like, it can truly be mutually beneficial in a way that I think some of those event organizers would welcome. And so while I could understand why they went for the validity and reputation that comes with a bigger brand, such as Ticketmaster, I think they could have got more bang for their buck with a smaller, more targeted partnership with folks that already found interesting use cases to grow ticketing for the respective events.

[00:27:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like there's a bit of a balance there because I hear you and I do think that it ideally would be, yeah, great for them to double down on the creative uses of the, especially some of the more emerging artists that are using this platform to bring folks together, right? Almost similar to what you may see people trying to do, whether it's seeing things virtually in Twitch or bringing those types of audiences in real life to particular things. I think that's really cool and unique. I do feel that for TikTok though, specifically with what we're seeing them do on the music side, in the back of my mind I always wonder, okay, if it weren't for Doja Cat and Megan Thee Stallion and some of these other major artists that are using the platform, what percentage of their impact is making up the overall pie of TikTok Music? Just thinking about that, they had that pie chart from a few years back about the genres and how hip-hop was over-indexed and how Megan Thee Stallion was the most popular artist. So if you're trying to cater to the biggest artist on your platform, you know, Megan Thee Stallion and Doja Cat are definitely at the Ticketmaster level of what they're doing. So if they are going to have an event, could you have something that keeps them in, right, because I think that the more organic things that we've seen likely are more of a direct competition to what we see from Eventbrite, let's say, which I think is much more in that sweet spot of everything from like a birthday party up until you get to like, you know, a small club concert or event, right? But then obviously Ticketmaster is everything else. So yeah, it's like, my heart wants to be like, oh yeah, stay with the types of cool events you've had. But also just thinking about how YouTube leaned into its biggest customers and like, if you're TikTok then yeah, it's the Megs, it's the Dojas, and ones like that. 

[00:29:38] Denisha Kuhlor: That is interesting and I think a good corollary. Maybe it does, like, trickle down on more of like a hybrid approach. Yeah, that's interesting. 

[00:29:46] Dan Runcie: I do think this taps back into something that you had mentioned before just about the platform itself and as this platform continues to grow, where does the loyalty sit for the consumer, right, whether it's with the artist or with the platform. 

[00:30:03] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I think this is such a big thing, right, and that comes with building a fan base or even just like your notoriety on TikTok. You see the changes that were made to Instagram and kind of everybody from the Kardashians, right, calling them out. And I think it has become this trend where we have more affinity to the platform and the platform's ability to curate the content than some of these content creators themselves. And in a world where I think these content creators are so driven to following the algorithm and getting promoted by the algorithm, what they don't realize is kind of the uniformity in content that is created. Even when it comes down to, like, some of the events or experiences or those types of videos, sometimes, like if you've seen one, you've seen them all. And I think that's why there's other creators, whether it’s, like, more comedian-focused or other topics that really excel because it forces them to kind of have to do something different, even if they do have to be relatable. And so unfortunately I think that, you know, artists who are employing TikTok and kind of using this, especially as they build their name and their brand, need to think a lot about like, okay, I have X amount of followers on TikTok, but the barrier to entry to get someone to follow you on TikTok looks very different compared to other platforms. And then taking that a step further, it's like, what does that mean? Because while people might like you, how willing are they to migrate to another platform? They ultimately have that ultimate affinity and loyalty, in my opinion, to TikTok. 

[00:31:38] Dan Runcie: I couldn't agree more, and it makes me think about how I use these apps today. For instance, we're recording this now August 26th, and this is a few hours after DJ Khaled released his album and Jay-Z had his four-minute-long verse on GOD DID. And I've seen everyone from ESPN's account to all of the hip-hop blogs and everyone else posting about this. And of course, you get it. And it's all these memes you see about people posting, okay, what Hov did on this track and they're getting photos of LeBron's best games or LeBron's game six against the Boston Celtics and things like that. But I bring that up because speaks to the uniformity of how all of these platforms or all these accounts on these platforms end up doing the same types of things because they know it works and they know what is effective. And it comes to the point now, when I'm scrolling through Instagram, I don't really know who the account is that is there that's posting something that I see unless it's something that's super specific to that person, right? Like if a friend is posting something from, you know, one of their kids starting in kindergarten, then it's like, okay, I know that that only comes from you. But if someone's posting something that's happening in media or something, that's happening in the news, you have to, like, look at that account at the top to really know who it is. And I think that's something they probably got from TikTok more so that, unless you're really looking to see where that account's coming from, it's a bit hidden now, right? Like that's part of, I know some of the frustration people had had, whether it's with Google searches or how social media was sharing links and they made all the links look the same, whether it's something from The Wall Street Journal or your friend's blog, right? And it kind of goes back to that point. 

[00:33:18] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. And it probably has like real implications for the creator economy now that we're talking about it, like, I think, you know, living in New York, I see, I like casually probably see a few TikTok creators a month and maybe even sometimes I follow them. But you know, what's interesting? Like, rather than noting, other than noting to myself, like, oh, I follow them on TikTok, kind of the like je nais se quois or like the magic of like, oh my God, like I'm seeing this person in real life feels like it's disappeared a bit to me in a way that used to exist with YouTube or some of these other platforms where it felt like a weird, like breaking of the screen. But now that everybody's behind the screen and as a result, even some of the content they're showing is so accessible. I do think it probably, like, leads to this dynamic of where we're just like, okay, let's just see interesting things. The people creating said interesting things are no more interesting in some ways than like you or they just did a great job at doing this. And I see that with, there's a lot of debate and, like, discourse around some of the lifestyle blogs or, you know, like people showing their lifestyle, like waking up in the morning, like obviously, you had to set the camera up before to do that. But a lot of folks in the comments argue like this is just a type of content. Like, it's a type of cinematography that people like to view and people like to see. And so as a result, these people are continuing to make these videos, but if that's just a type of content that people like to see, TikTok is simply going to provide that content all the time, regardless of really any affiliation to one creator, which makes it a lot tougher on these creators, I think, to build these networks and conversely artists.

[00:34:55] Dan Runcie: Right, and this brings me back to the whole issues that people have with Web 2.0 to begin with and why they wanted to be able to solve some of this with Web 3.0. It's because the platforms commoditize your content, and then in return, they're the ones that hold the power. 

[00:35:10] Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I think though folks have to be honest. In some ways, it's what the user likes or what the, yeah, the users do like this because if not, you know, we're long past exclusives being standard in the industry, but if not the exclusives would've worked. Like having, you know, Chance the Rapper's album on Apple Music for two weeks, that would work. But the industry shied away from that because ultimately consumers cared more about choice and the ability to choose and experience and be exposed to all types of artists. And so I do think it's a dangerous game because it doesn't recognize like that's why malls exist, right? Like, you go and you want to go to multiple stores. And so I do think sometimes while I understand and recognize and very much like honor the need to, you know, differentiate and be able to have your core audience and provide to those things, I think we'd be remiss if we also didn't realize, like, natural human behavior comes from choice and like the brevity of choice. And so that's sometimes the interesting thing between Web 2.0 and even Web 3.0 and with crypto, for me, because ultimately, like, the barrier to entry is so high, right, to get someone, a true fan to download an artist NFT because that insinuates their true fans. And I think a lot of artists have actually had to face the music in some ways with realizing their perceived fan base isn't as big as they thought and the mechanism to realize that has been some of these drops.

[00:36:40] Dan Runcie: Well said, well said. The engagement piece and what you need to have a true fan is harder than people think, so, yeah, I couldn't agree more. Well, we're getting to the tail end, but before we close things out, we have to talk about the elephant in the room for TikTok, and that is its geopolitical standing and all of the things that it wants to do while, whether or not they will be successful, a lot of it depends on the company's viability in the US and whether or not it's current status, especially given the fact that the Chinese government does have this data and there are unknown questions about what that means, what it can do with this data, how do you see this piece it?

[00:37:22] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I think it's tricky in some ways, because, you know, as consumers, we're now kind of privy to the implications of tech and big data. And even just being on our phones, being on our phones in general, what I will say is and a lot of the like research indicates that true, like avid TikTok users are just, like, hooked in a way where they don't or they might say to you they don't care. Now how much is that true, I guess we'll find out. But I do think it's concerning because maybe to some extent, we don't even fully realize everything and all the factors that are at play here, right? Like, you're just giving that summary, I'm like, whoa. But as a user coming on every day, you're not thinking about that. And so often with big data and some of these platforms, in a way, you don't realize just the implications it had until it was too late, right? Until we're now talking about the ramifications of a platform existing in that way. And so I think it's going to be really interesting to see how, seriously consumers want to take it and beyond consumers, like the US, the US in general. I mean, I would be remiss if I didn't say that some of the data is concerning, right, learning about some of the data TikTok has access to is concerning. But ultimately like as more and more people post and the ecosystem grows larger and there's now 10-minute videos and your favorite artists are on there and they have a streaming platform and all these things in this ecosystem, it starts to get hard to really stray away. And so I think that's going to be a challenge because it feels like it almost has to be a collective push for folks to disintermediate from the platform. But I'm really curious your thoughts on this, too.

[00:39:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So the first attempt of this was in fall 2020. So it was around two years ago at this point, when Trump had tried to shut down TikTok. That didn't work for a number of reasons. There were a number of things going on in the world that the attention just wasn't there. And I don't think that the argument was made in a concise and effective way that could have necessarily gotten the job done. And TikTok had other challenges at the time, Kevin Mayer had his short term and then he had left shortly after. So there were a number of issues there. This though, I think that even though you're starting to hear some senators say certain things about it, I think things will be pretty mum, I would guess, until the 2022 midterm elections coming up just 'cause think from a strategic perspective, they want to keep momentum on things that they can confirm can get votes. So while I think I've probably heard more of the concern, if I'm being honest, coming from democratic senators, their biggest concern right now is okay, how can we continue to try to celebrate Joe Biden's victory so that they can not lose seat coming up with this election, I feel like. And because of that, like, we kind of see how this whole thing plays out. I do think though that we could be facing a potential situation where it's almost like the Facebook thing where people know that this is an issue, but it's not going to happen proactively. It happens reactively. It's going to be like, when shit hits the fan and then people are going to be like, oh shit, now we need to do something. 

[00:40:27] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly. Out of curiosity, how do you think TikTok, and I'm sure it'll vary, right, but how do you think TikTok is going to be used with the upcoming election cycle? 

[00:40:37] Dan Runcie: Oh, good question. I don't see it impacting 2022 as much, but I could see it playing a factor more so in 2024 because I just think that even though there's plenty at stake coming up with this election, the presidential elections always get more in place. I do think that, especially as this group of voters does tend to grow and as more and more older people do get on TikTok, a lot of the same types of activities and nefarious behavior that we saw on Facebook here is going to make its way onto. TikTok. The bigger challenge is though, I think, it's even tougher to navigate all those things. I mean, we even saw that there was misinformation back in 2020 when you had a lot of the Black Lives Matter uprisings and people, they were censoring certain things related to those hashtags. So I do think that those things are going to cause big problems. I think the difference though, and this is part of it is that when these issues happen for Facebook, it's one thing if you have mark Zuckerberg coming to Congress and it can kind of be this thing where he could be media training, he can kind of have these like, you know, haha moments where it's like, Senator, we sell ads, that's how we make money. That doesn't exactly work with the Chinese government in the same way 'cause I don't think that that type of congressional hearing would necessarily work in the same way. So it would have to be some type of, you know, harder crackdown that happens with it. So, yeah, it's tough. I feel like we're not going to see anything actually happen until shit does hit the fan. And unfortunately, that could be the 2024 presidential election in the US, but maybe it could be something sooner. 

[00:42:19] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, no, we'll definitely have to see how it plays out. I also think we could potentially see, like, new candidates that come to the result from easily being able to build followings on a platform like TikTok. So I'm curious to see what, like, TikTok- native candidates emerge as well. 

[00:42:36] Dan Runcie: Right, like kind of like how Obama was the Facebook champion in 2000. 

[00:42:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. 

[00:42:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's funny, right? Because I feel like, you know, back then it was like, oh, look at all the great things that Facebook could do with 2008. And just, I think given some of the political leanings at the time, but then 2016 in many ways was a very opposite case with it. So I do feel like we're a bit more jaded and cynical of the powers of social media than we were then. But there is always a candidate that rises up with these things, that does these things, right? Like, I don't know, thinking back to the days of candidates that are just entering a different thing or new platform, whether it's Bill Clinton going on the Arsenio Hall Show playing his saxophone or something like that. Like, who's going to be that on TikTok? I don't know. I don't follow any politicians on TikTok. I'm sure they have accounts, but I'm sure they'll probably be doing that. And who knows? They'll probably have a debate on Hot Ones for all I know. 

[00:43:35] Denisha Kuhlor: It's definitely going to be interesting. 

[00:43:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, this was great. We covered a bunch in this, so we'll definitely have to revisit this topic at some point. And we'll see how TikTok succeeds over this for the next few months. I think we both have our internal scorecards ready, but we'll definitely have to touch base on this again at some point. 

[00:43:54] Denisha Kuhlor: Agree. Thanks so much for having me.

[00:43:56] Dan Runcie: For sure. Thank you.

[00:43:58] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2726 no Investing $200 Million In Music with Matt Pincus https://www.trapital.com/podcast One of the most successful entrepreneurs in the music industry is, without question, Matt Pincus. He sold his independent music publishing company, SONGS, for $160 million five years ago. And now, the music holdings company he co-founded, MUSIC, just raised $200 million to invest in music and music-adjacent companies.  Though, Matt doesn’t see MUSIC as an investment fund, but rather a holding company. That’s because he takes an operator-centric role in the companies he funds. And unlike the splashy catalog acquisitions that’ve dominated the space over the past few years, Matt is looking forward with his investments and targeting brand-new growth opportunities instead. In particular, Matt sees big opportunities in the technology sector, web3, and even record labels and publishing. At SONGS, Matt was able to spot and develop up-and-coming songwriters, inking early deals with the likes of Diplo, Lorde, and The Weeknd. He’ll be tasked with finding similar success at MUSIC.   Matt and I dove deep into a wide-range of topics during our conversation. Here’s a few highlights of what we covered: [2:58] Why Matt created MUSIC [8:07] MUSIC’s investment thesis? [14:40] What Matt doesn’t like about the music business  [19:49] Recent inflow of capital into the music business [21:15] Two lanes to entering music business [25:15] Finding left-of-center opportunities among musical talent  [27:30] The structural problem of the music business [31:35] Continuity was key to SONGS success [33:34] The Weeknd as a business blueprint for other artists [37:53] Sync business opportunities  [44:55] Have streaming subscriptions peaked? [47:50] Tiktok brought back music frequency [51:40] Matt’s five-year predictions Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Matt Pincus, @mpinc     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Newsly is your all-in-one audio super app to hear the trending topics on the entire web. Download newsly.me for free and use the promo code ‘TRAP’ to receive a 1-month free subscription.   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Matt Pincus: Defensibility in the music business is not a patent or a technology or some special recipe you have someplace. It's your understanding of music, the people that make it, and then your ability to develop relationships with people around the business and to keep your reputation such that people want to be with you. But the real key in, at least in the music technology side of it is you need to be able to spin the technology yourself and understand really how it works.  [00:00:37] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:56] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is with one of the most successful music entrepreneurs of the past few decades. His name is Matt Pincus and he is the founder and CEO of MUSIC, which is a holding company that invests in music tech and music-adjacent companies. MUSIC just launched a 200 million fund to invest in this space, so Matt and I talked all about it. He's looking for companies that still have a clear understanding for how music gets made and understand the art behind it. He's also looking for startups that have a true defensible moat that is something unique that they can do. And he's also looking for the companies that have a huge total addressable market that can clearly grow and expand as we're seeing things continue to grow in this space. Our conversation covered a bunch of topics in this space. We talked about sync and the impact of that. We also talked about how much further streaming can go. And we talked about a bunch of insightful music trends. Really fascinating conversation. I feel like every few months we have one of those conversations where people reach out to me and say, Hey, I took a bunch of notes in that conversation. Thank you for this. And I have a good feeling, I have a good feeling that this is going to be one of those conversations. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Matt Pincus.  [00:02:16] Dan Runcie: All right. Today, we're joined by Matt Pincus, who is the founder of MUSIC, which is a holding company that invested music and music-adjacent companies. Matt, I'm really excited to have this conversation because you have had a very impressive career with what you did with Songs and everything that you had done in publishing specifically. And what always stuck out to me about you in this space is how you've identified opportunities where others didn't see them. So I know when I saw the announcement for MUSIC and the $200 million fund you launched, I said, okay, he's seeing something and he's seeing an opportunity to dive in. So what did you see? What made you want to get involved with this? [00:02:58] Matt Pincus: Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm a big admirer of Trapital and your work in general. And I'm really happy to be with you here today. So, you know, I started music, it was sort of an organic process. I sold Songs after running it for about 13 years. And it was a fairly abrupt end. So we decided to sell the company and neither me nor my two partners really wanted to run it for somebody else. So we decided that once we sold it, it was time to step away and it was fairly quick. So, you know, I ran the company for 12-plus years. And then 90 days after the sale, I was out in the street, like, what am I going to do with my life? So it was a bit of an organic process. It started with meeting a lot of really interesting founders of music businesses and companies that were around the music business. It's obviously an interesting time in our business in a number of different ways. The streaming market has matured. There are a lot of music tech businesses with interesting founders cropping up over the past four or five years. The web three crypto business has, you know, started the early days of really coming online. And the way that labels, publishing companies, management companies reach audiences is really different than it was like, you know, six, seven years ago. So I met a lot of really interesting people. The first one was Steve Martocci, who was the founder of Splice. He and I hit it off particularly well. And I sort of said, listen, I've been, you know, doing talent deals with young people, you know, in the early twenties for the past 12 years, I think maybe the next chapter is working with founders of companies that are more like 10 years younger than me, as opposed to, you know, 20, early 20s. And taking the experience that I had in the last, like, four or five years of songs when we were trying to figure out how to really realize returns on the business and build on that to try to help people do the same thing. So I was out looking for, you know, are there interesting companies that I might be able to work with in some way or another? And the answer to that quickly became kind of yes, on the music tech side originally, in growth companies, when online music and music technology was shifting to a subscription-based backbone as opposed to a packet software business. And then also on the music side of it, you know, interesting independent labels, music companies operating in a different way. And so the first thing was, are there interesting companies out there? The second is, do they need capital and where would they get it from? And the third was, how am I going to get the money to invest in these businesses? So it was kind of a bit of a bootstrapping exercise where I would go find an opportunity to invest in a company, put some of my own money in LionTree, which sold songs for me and has been a partner and champion of mine since I sold the company, would invest some money too, and then we'd find some other people to round out the investment. We did that first with Splice, put about 20 million into the company over a period of time. We also did in the same way, made an investment in a company called HIFI, which is a FinTech platform benefiting artists in a bunch of different ways, and also with DICE, the ticketing business. And you know, they started, a couple of them did well and actually, they all did well. And so I decided that I wanted to raise some capital and have my own sort of, it's not really a fund. It's more of a holding company 'cause I'm less of an investor and more of an operator. And so the question became, how are we going to raise the money? Now Aryeh Bourkoff who runs LionTree is somewhat of a magic maker, and he took me on and introduced me to two families, the Schusterman Family and JS Capital, which is Jonathan Soros's capital vehicle. And they agreed to invest in a four-way partnership. So it's between me, LionTree, Schusterman Family, and JS Capital. And we formed MUSIC, which is a $200 million holding company. We do deals in a couple of different areas, music tech, which is sort of where I spent most of my time after Songs. We also invest in independent music companies like Songs. So labels publishing companies, management companies. Increasingly, a few of those functions are in one company, as opposed to when I was running Songs, it was like you were either a publisher or a label or a management company. And then we partner sometimes with a larger private equity firm if we are interested in acquiring something that's, you know, of a larger size. And so we're in the middle of one of those right now. And so we were able to find a bunch of interesting opportunity, a bunch of interesting ways, and it seems to me to be, you know, a really good time to be putting money to work in the music business.  [00:07:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's an exciting time to be investing in these companies and to be acquiring them too. And you mentioned something there about the types of companies you're looking at and whether they are modern music companies or whether they are doing something that's unique in the space. Can you talk a little bit more about your investment thesis and what you're looking for, and specifically, because, as you mentioned, you're not a fund, you're a holding company, so you're not necessarily just doing, you know, angel investments or early stage. You're trying to make investments for the long haul. So how does that shape your strategy? [00:08:07] Matt Pincus: Very good question. And I think the answer to that depends somewhat on the different areas of investment. So the first is in the technology side of the business, which is kind of where I started as an investor. So, you look for a couple of things there. So first of all, you need to invest in companies, not products. So some of the music startups can be sort of, it's an interesting widget, but can it be a scalable business? So you need to make sure that you have a couple of things in order to know that you're investing in a company that has the ability to grow. So the first thing is you need your own tech stack and it needs to be built to suit whatever market you want to be in. So for example, with Splice, one of the reasons, and there were several, but one of the reasons I invested in the company was because Steve had built this subscription stack from day one of the company. So it was a native SaaS company in a world where the rest of the market needed to move from the old way of doing business to the new way of doing business. Splice was always in the new way of doing business, so it was going to be ahead of the curve. And so you need to make sure that your technical capabilities and your technical assets are going to, you know, be where you want to go. The second is that you need to make sure you're in a part of the market that has a big enough user base to make a real company out of it. You know, it's great to make a widget that, you know, 1500 people love, love, love, but 1500 people is not a lot of people. So you need to make sure that the addressable market around the business has a lot of users. And again, in Splice's case, you know, they are the content business in music tech. So they can be used in an infinite amount of applications across the business, which gives them, you know, a really solid user base. And so, you know, that's kind of the second thing. And the third thing is that you need to kind of own where you live or have the ability to own where you live. So, you know, it's great if you get into a category in the technology side of the business, that, you know, breaks some ground and shows everybody what can be done. But if then, you know, Apple or Google just says, thank you very much and does it instead of you, it's not so great. So you need to have a defensible business that you can build and scale. And again, back to Splice, you know, they are the content leader and I'm a music publisher by trade, so content is the water supply in the music business. You know, in publishing, it's the song that starts the whole conversation. Splice owns music. And so no matter where the market is going to grow, no matter where it ends up going, they have the supply that feeds the music tech business. And so it's inherently defensible when it gets up to a certain level. You know, at this point they have 3 million works in their database. To catch up to them is, you know, difficult, if not impossible. And so you need to be defensible now on the music side of what I do, which is investing in music companies, there's a couple of things I look for. So first of all, I don't do catalog acquisitions. I invest in people. So the first thing is that you need to have really talented executives that understand music and know how to find repertoire and make it bigger. I tend to like businesses that give advances to artists. There's a certain way, like at Songs, we built a catalog over a long period of time, but we built it through signing young writers and giving them advances. So I call it a mattress out of sheets. If you do that one after another, over many, many years and you do it well, all of a sudden you wake up, you know, 7 to 10, 12 years later, and you're like, holy shit, it's a big catalog. And so I tend to like businesses that advance money to artists and build catalog that way or manage catalog that way. There's a certain magic to understanding how to compensate artists and doing it fairly. So I tend to look at that. You know, the music business has changed a lot. It used to be that if you wanted to be an independent, you needed to own your own vertical. And you know, at Songs, we had our global administration business that we owned and built. We had our own technology. So we were self-contained, standalone competitor. Now I think, you know, solutions have become available everywhere. There's a lot of good publishing administration, a lot of good record distribution solutions. There's a lot of off-the-shelf stuff you can get. It's really about music. It's really about understanding artists and the music that they make and connecting them with an audience. So I look for people who uniquely understand that. Now that can be, you know, somebody who has a geographical lock on a particular kind of music. It can be somebody that has a particularly unique understanding of how the studio works because I think if there's one big change in the music publishing business lately, it's that it's gone really back to the studio. And the interesting companies are actually making songs in real-time in a studio environment. So it can be that. It can be that you have another business that you do and music is associated with it. So why not, you know, get into the music business while you're doing whatever else you do, but you need to have some reason why you have access to a particular group of artists in a particular kind of repertoire, and you're helpful to that in some way or another. And so it's quite a different set of things that I look for on that side than on the technology side.  [00:13:34] Dan Runcie: And with the way that your firm is structured, too, I see parallels with the types of companies you're looking at, right? You're not just focused on one particular type of investment area. You have the music tech companies that you're looking at. Splice is an example. You also have the companies that are working more directly in music itself, whether that is giving advances or companies that have a unique edge on who they're reaching. And I think that translates as well when you're talking about the types of companies you're looking at because a lot of times, especially 10, 15 years ago, as you mentioned, there were more silos and now you're starting to see companies have different types of roles that they do or different divisions to try to be this nebulous term that I've heard several times as broader entertainment company. And while I think that that's effective, I could also see how that could challenge some of the challenges of being able to have a business that is defensible or having a moat and the focus that comes with that. So how do you balance that and what are the things that you look for when evaluating companies that are both trying to do it all, but also are trying to have something that they can be defensible with?  [00:14:40] Matt Pincus: Well, so on the music side of it, you know, it's about relationships. You know, the good companies, their equity is their relationships with different people around the business. And it's really a human-centric business. So, you know, defensibility often is correlated with reputation in the independent music business, at least. That was certainly true of Songs. One of the big success factors of the company and in fact, like, kind of our asset was that me and Ron and Carianne had really good relationships around the business that we built over many years, and that allowed us to punch above our weight class. You know, when we were a very small business, you know, we acted as a bigger business because we were able to get champions that helped us along the way, both in terms of the artists that were willing to sign with us, but also in terms of, you know, other people around the business that took us on and helped us out. Oddly enough defensibility in the music business is not a patent or a technology or some special recipe you have someplace. It's your understanding of music, the people that make it, and then your ability to develop relationships with people around the business and to keep your reputation such that people want to be with you. You know, on the tech side of it, it's a little bit different. You have to make sure that your innovation curve is constantly there. You have to make sure, like, I would not invest in a business that did not have a technical co-founder. You know, ideas are great. Everybody's got ideas. You know, there's an app for anything. But the real key in, at least in the music technology side of it is you need to be able to spin the technology yourself and understand really how it works, which when you get into the crypto side of it's really interesting 'cause a lot of people understand the implications of it, but they have no idea how the shit works. They don't actually use it. And they get kind of confused thinking that it's much more complicated than in fact it really is. Or, you know, they get so fascinated with the technology that they don't make a product that stands on its own bottom and has value to the end user. So it's a little bit different in the different areas of the market that you look at. And one of the reasons why I like the field that I play on and I feel very lucky to be able to do the different things that I can do with music is because some of it is about sort of analytical, scalable technology-oriented investments. And some of it is just about people in tunes. And so you're kind of mixing a lot of different things together. You know, the one thing that I don't like so much about the recent music business is somehow we all slipped into talking about music as assets and fractional finance and cash flows and securitization. And I'm like, listen, if I wanted to do all that shit, I do it not here. You know, the music business is not assets and finance and cash flows and, you know, securitization. The music business is moving people, motivating people, creating an audience, assembling humans to want what you make, and distributing that and delivering it and all the rest of that stuff. You know, the fact like, listen, what I'm doing is either really smart or really dumb because either you can make a real investment business just out of the music business. And I think you can because there's lots of different types of investments in music and there's lots of growth and lots of possibility. But also, you know, it's a pretty small business. And I live in, play, you know, a neighborhood, the size of a postage stamp. We'll see if they can be done, but I think originally, you know, it starts with the creative and it starts with the means of delivering the creative to the people that want it. And then all of the rest of this stuff, you know, yield, debt payments, multiples on equity, bonds, all the rest of this stuff just is a happy accident that comes from doing your job well. [00:18:35] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you mentioned this because there's a version of what you do that could easily look more like a traditional private equity firm, where they are just going in and doing all of the things that you just mentioned and they're coming more from that perspective, but in many ways, your defense is having this laser focus on music, but you're going deep within all of the areas that it encompasses. And with that, I have to assume that this also maybe has a bit of a flavor on what your take is about the money that has come into the music industry and some of those other non-music companies or those that are purely looking at it for the financial opportunity or for the noncorrelated opportunities and how that in a lot of ways, even though on paper, someone that's fundraising may see the money they can get from you versus the money they get from others. But I'm hearing it from the record labels. And especially the independent ones they're getting reached out to all the time now about acquisitions. And a lot of those calls are coming from non-music related companies that are trying to make those moves. So it's been fascinating to see how that shapes, but I do feel like you are going about this in a much more unique way than a lot of them are. [00:19:49] Matt Pincus: Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. I will say that the recent, like, huge inflow of capital into the music business has one very good byproduct, which is it's giving a lot of money to songwriters and artists. Some of these catalogs getting valued at 20 times, 30 times, you know, NPS where they would've been valued at 10, you know, four or five years ago, maybe 10 years ago. It just results in people that make great music, making a bunch of bucks. And there's nothing at all wrong with that. On the catalog side of it, it makes a little bit more sense that some of these like larger capital vehicles are coming into the market and, you know, bidding things up and structuring the leverage in a certain way that makes sense. There's a big difference between what's going on now and what was going on when this first happened, like in 2006, 2007 timeframe because the people that are doing it now can afford it. They've got lots and lots of money. They don't need big returns on that money. They have the ability to structure this stuff financially in ways that don't make no sense. And so it makes, you know, more sense that people are doing that with the IP catalog acquisition business. When it gets to new music, you know, I think it's still a human business. I think you got to know the people, you know, and you have to understand how it's really about managing what I refer to as the working capital of the business. So, you know, you need to advance money, you need to collect that money, you need to reinvest the money. And so a lot of that, you know, it's not a big enough business that you can structure it like a bunch of bonds. You need to kind of understand the market that you're in, how many deals you could possibly get, and what about you ought to pay for them, and what kind of infrastructure you need to address all of that to do a good job. And that's hard to know from outside of the business. It's even hard to know, like there's sort of two lanes in the music business. There's people who came up through the building where they started at majors and they kind of built their career, you know, up from coordinator to director to senior director to VPs, SVP, EVP. And then they end up running the company, a lot of great people who came up that way. And then there's people who kind of feed in the wild. Like, come outside of the building and need to figure out, like, what's available. And there's some real differences, you know. Sometimes they cross over like Ron Perry who was an instrumental person at Songs from, you know, the very beginning to through time we sold and now runs Columbia. So sometimes that happens. Or Carianne who, you know, also was my partner at Songs who now runs Warner Chappell with Guy Moot. It's like there, you know, it happens, but there are really two lanes. And I think in the independent side, it's a lot about systematic A&R so about looking at, listen, none of us are overfunded with tons of money. So, you know, everybody's stretching the dough. And it becomes about how can I build this system in the world that I live that can do deals inexpensively, and then find the ones that are working and invest and push them forward. And all the great independent music companies, you know, Chrysalis, Jive Zomba, A&M Rondor, all the great ones throughout history sort of did that really effectively or were usually like the other ones. So everybody goes to the majors to get their offer. And then there's these other cooler guys that are there, like, you know, kind of fucking with the majors by picking off all the left to center stuff that was us at Songs. You know, and all those other companies I just mentioned were kind of some version of that. But there's kind of, all of these mechanics that come both from history, so understanding the history of the business, but also understanding the people and how they sort of work 'cause as much as the world is changing and it's changing a lot, it's still kind of about A&R. It's still about creative in some way or another. I mean, Carianne's superpower, which she's got many, but the original superpower was understanding not only what works well to picture, but the people that choose music in film and television, advertisements, video games, she's particularly uniquely talented at that. And that's still a core skill that people need to understand. So, you know, I'm the guy that kind of pulls the pieces together. I don't do any of those things. I, you know, originally hired some great people and now I try to invest in great people that do all that stuff, but it's still about understanding it and if you're coming purely from the outside, I think it's challenging. [00:24:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think your career experience speaks a lot to this, right? You mentioned being able to find the left-of-center opportunities when you're at Songs, whether it was Lorde or The Weeknd. And you saw how those turned out. It worked out brilliantly. I'm curious to hear what you think about the way things are right now because, especially with the way that TikTok is and so many of the companies, whether it's the major labels or the independents, they all have access to the same information. So the cost of acquiring and being able to find and develop those same artists is much more expensive. So what do you think those left-of-center opportunities look like today in the current environment where it feels as if there are more and more outlets to find different types of people, but the way that people are going about it, it does seem like a lot of people are now playing a pretty similar game. [00:25:13] Matt Pincus: You mean like a moneyball... [00:25:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah.  [00:25:15] Matt Pincus: ...type of, yeah. So, you know, again, I go back to like, there's sort of in the building and there's outside of the building way of thinking. So in the major system, it makes logical sense that they want to sort of hang back, see what reacts, and go and get it when it reacts, the more predictable something is the more you're willing to pay for it. That makes logical sense. There's nothing wrong with it. They're not idiots for doing that. It's just the way that they traditionally operate. And now it's about, like, seeing the shiny pennies and then grabbing them right away, whatever the cost, because music is much more efficient than it used to be. It used to be that you'd have to, like, release a whole album and sink a bunch of capital into seeing if something works. Now you can kind of tell pretty quickly if something's going to work. So it makes sense to pay a lot for something predictable, as opposed to, you know, paying a little bit for stuff that is wildly uncertain. So, you know, that makes total sense. I think on the independent side, and I really count in that like A&R mentality, like people who are finding artists and developing artists. So it's not just like, you know, independent labels, but it's also like, you know, Electric Feel is a really interesting company that does this, Hallwood. You know, APG is obviously the really great example of this, of finding artists really early and developing them into something or representing people who do that. A lot of, you know, that is about iteration and about understanding, you know, what makes a good story in a particular market. Now, part of that is the music itself. Part of that, most of it is the music itself, but part of that is also all the other stuff around it. You know, how you unfold the narrative, how you stage market entry for an artist. You know, all of those things, again, I come back to the stick to your knitting thing where it's like, as much as the world changes, it kind of remains the same to some degree. So, you know, the interesting and frustrating thing about the music business for people that run companies like I did at Songs is that there's just not that many good, really good, talented people, you know. If there's one structural problem in the music business is there's not enough, really good A&R people, promotion people, you know, creative people.  [00:27:29] Dan Runcie: And why do you think that is? [00:27:30] Matt Pincus: I think it's hard, for one, I think it's hard. And as much as people try to play moneyball, now I'm a big believer in systematic A&R, which some people would consider, you know, moneyball. So in other words, like having a funnel that gives you a group of things that might work, that I'm a big believer in that as a starting point, but that only gets you like 51% confidence. That's not much more than a coin toss. The rest of it is really doing the work of developing the product itself, the music itself, and then the story around it. And it's just a hard business, plus you got to know everybody, you know. So it takes a while to develop those relationships and those skills. One of the things that's interesting when I look on the music tech side of it that I think is one of the great things is that the technological development in music production is allowing people to learn how to use the gear quicker. So you're going to have hit singles coming from 13-year-olds within no time at all. And that used to not be possible because it would take you four or five, six years just to learn how to twist the knobs on a board. Like, it was hard. Now with like, you know, presets, with things like Splice, with AI-assisted creation, you know, anything that makes it easier for an artist to get what's inside of them out, the learning curve is becoming less steep. And that's a good thing because talent shines in that environment. You know, it's one thing to be able to, you know, have a knowledge-base to tweak things. It's another thing to just be a talented and expressive artist with urgency. And so maybe some of that will happen. And on the executive side, like on the A&R side, as things like radio, you know, radio's been so monolithic and so hard to penetrate. And now maybe it's loosening up a little bit, but it still takes a while to figure out what's going to work. It's very hard. And it is one thing to be a fan and be like, this is good, this is not good. It's another thing to take a look at something that doesn't yet exist and be like, this is what it will look like if we can pull it off. I don't have that talent, you know. I'm not an A&R person, but I watch people do it and it's pretty miraculous. And it's not just A&R, it's also promotion, which is an undervalued piece of the equation and increasingly, marketing, digital marketing, like the first cut of it was just, you know, sort of advertising on Facebook. Now it's much more sophisticated than that. And so I feel like it's just hard and I wish there were, you know, there's also the part of the problem in the music business is nobody trains anybody. There's no HR infrastructure. You know, I went to Columbia Business School and I had been in the music business. I didn't have one single meeting about a job that came through the school.  [00:30:14] Dan Runcie: I'm not surprised. That wasn't the case for me either.  [00:30:17] Matt Pincus: That’s what I'm saying like, nobody trained you. I mean, I remember going on a job interview when I was like 21 coming right out of college or 23 coming right out of college with a guy at ICM. And he said, what do you want to do? I said, I want to be an A&R .He said, great, find a band. That was it. That was the interview. And so it's like, it's that kind of business, which is kind of wonderful in its own way, but it doesn't train people really. And so that's also part of the reason. We don't develop our talent, executive talent pipeline in a really great way. And that's why people like, you know, Mike Caren at APG is so special. You know, the LVRN guys are so special because they bring along executives in a really concerted kind of way. And I wish there was more of that in the business in general.  [00:30:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's a huge opportunity for it. And I think you see a lot of it play out when there are executive shake ups and who gets picked for certain things and why people get picked for certain things. And to some extent, you see this in other places too, whether there's a mix of internal hires versus external. But one thing that I have noticed is the units that do tend to stick together, or there is some continuity there. You do see a lot of success happen if they understand what works, everyone's into it. And I think some of these other places where it could be a bit of revolving doors with who's in leadership, who's trying to get where it's very tough to have that infrastructure.  [00:31:35] Matt Pincus: And that was one of the great blessings for me at Songs, which is not, doesn't speak well for the industry, particularly, but, you know, Ron and Carianne were two of the most talented people of their generation for sure. And the business didn't know what to do with them. The fact that I could get the two of them and we could all stay together for 12 years and build a company is like a miracle. And that was a big part of the reason why it all worked is because we knew each other really well and people knew us as a unit. We had different things we did. It's a little bit like, you know, kind of what's going on with the professional sports a little bit too, is, you know, it's great that all these individual players are celebrities. And again, great that athletes are making more money, but great teams don't stay together in the same way that they did before. And I think that's changing a little bit now because you don't have to do a deal with a major and get your money the traditional way in order to build a company. And that's one of the reasons I exist as MUSIC, is because there's opportunities to bring outside capital into the business under terms that look a little bit more like sort of venture capital or private equity, which is in a way more fair than the traditional music business has been on a per transaction basis. There's natural reasons why the major music companies finance the music business for as many decades as they did, and it's not to rip people off, it's because nobody else would do it. But now it's a different world and so hopefully some of these things will change. You know, when you have really great entrepreneurs that own their own business, as opposed to, you know, in some JV with a major that's really a compensation agreement, then it's in their interest, like it was in mine when I was running Songs, to bring along really talented people and find new ones. And so that's one of the things that I've sort of hoped for in some way.  [00:33:24] Dan Runcie: Are there any artists that stick out to you as examples of yes, they're building their business and they're doing this the way that could be a blueprint for what we'll see more frequently moving forward? [00:33:34] Matt Pincus: Ones that I talk about all the time is The Weeknd, which we were involved with, you know, from fairly early on. And Sal who's, you know, has been his manager for a very long time, and Cash. You know, I think you're going to see what they did with XO happening in a lot of different ways going forward, where you get a group of people that form a partner and distribute responsibilities between artist, manager. You know, there's people like La Mar Taylor involved with those guys that does all the visual. There's a lot of cooks that need to be in the kitchen to make something really successfully work. The label model of sign to a label, they'll do everything that existed in, like, the nineties is way long gone. Even management where you sort of have somebody who's a commission person that's just doing the business of an artist, that's not true of the good ones anymore. The good ones get in it with the artist and really help them build an entrepreneurial life. I mean, to be an artist now, you need to, like, be like a 140-character joke writer. You need to be an accountant. You need to have a corporate entity. You need to deal with all these different vendors. And you need to be like, you know, P. T. Barnum, like, step right up, step right up, check this out, you're going to love it. It's a complex skill set. And so I think one of the things that you're going to see in the talent representation business, like the management business is I think you're going to see more entity partnership formation, where people are going to go into partnership together. Managers and artists will be like Sal, Sal and Abel have been together for, how long now? Like, I mean... [00:35:08] Dan Runcie: It's at least a decade, right? [00:35:09] Matt Pincus: Yeah. And they've been able to scale and grow and make a lot of money and still be together. And that's because everyone provides value. I'm sure they adjust their relationship, however, over time, I don't know. But I think you're going to see that approach because it takes a village in a way to make really durable stuff. I mean, if you're talking about a viral hit that's here today, gone today. That's one thing. But if you're talking about really building a franchise over a period of time, it requires a lot of work from a lot of people. So I think you'll see sort of, you know, entity formation with partners that include business people and artists in with interest aligned. You know, Diplo's another one. I mean, you know, TMWRK and Diplo have been together for again, going back to since I started working with them. So that was 2011, you know? You look at firms like CRUSH, Jonathan, Daniel has built franchise after franchise of artists that stay with him forever. And he works with him as a partner and that's why it works. So I think you're going to see more of that going forward and and I think that's a good thing. [00:36:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. The Weeknd's a very good example because even from the origins of his career, you could see the mentality of where he saw things. Drake famously offered him the opportunity to come on OVO Sound. They had the whole Toronto connection, Drake put him onto that blog post and everything, but then he was like, no, I don't want to be under another artist when I think I can be just as big as that artist, even bigger and do my own thing and look what he's been able to do now. So I think a lot of it... [00:36:41] Matt Pincus: And by the way, the record deal is a distribution deal.  [00:36:43] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:36:44] Matt Pincus: You know, I mean, there you go. And so in terms of distribution of value, you know, if you can do it, if you're smart enough to have a cool head and plan like those guys did, you know, you can have a much larger enterprise than you normally would. So I hold them up as an example of, you know, what I think is going to happen and is happening really in lots of different areas of the business now. [00:37:07] Dan Runcie: One of the other areas that has gotten a bunch of attention right now has been syncs, and this has been growing, I think, especially given what we've seen with people, especially from outside the music industry, trying to get more involved, but especially this past summer with Kate Bush being featured in Stranger Things. This conversation has been happening more and more. This is another example where it's a mix of that art and science of what does finding a good sync looks like and what happens with it. And I think so much of it, there's maybe a little bit of luck with just how the internet works and how things take off, but there's also a good amount of work that's put into finding the right type of placement for the right type of artists that could make all those things work to make it happen. So how do you view the opportunities for sync right now?  [00:37:53] Matt Pincus: You know, it's interesting. I was sort of a student of Carianne. She taught me the sync business. I literally remember she had a binder where she kept every single interaction she ever had around a song and a placement. And she not only showed me how it all worked, but then we made a software platform out of her own process of how she did it. So I was trained by the best. One of the interesting things about sync is how it always comes back in cycles. You know, when we started Songs, it was like 2004, sync was the whole game. Like, between 2006 and sort of 2009 timeframe, it was the most important thing in a pitch. You know, it was responsible for a lot of our really early successes. And then when it became a largely pop business there in the early days of streaming, it was like sort of radio and super reactive and viral repertoire. It sort of stepped to the background for a minute. And now with the way that kids are bouncing around on a playlist from like, you know, Taylor to like a hip-hop track to, you know, Kate Bush back to Metallica and they don't care. It's become all of a sudden, perhaps one of the top, most important ways repertoire gets discovered now. It's amazing the enduring power of synchronization over time. The thing about sync that I think is interesting is part of it is selection. Like, is this song going to work to picture? But there's a lot that goes into making the deal happen. I mean, that Kate Bush deal as my understanding, I was not involved, but my understanding from, like, just hearing about it was that it took 'em forever to get the clearance done. So a lot of it is not only just is this going to work the picture? Is it the right BPM, the right mood, you know, the right tonality, the right cultural notes, which is a very special thing that music supervisors are particularly good at, but it's also the real politic of like getting the fucking thing cleared. And one of the things that I look at, I tend to have thesis sort of areas when I look at investing in the music business, and one of them is just how fuck the sync business is. That, you know, there should be a buy it now button in the music business if you want to use something for your film, buy it now. And if it was easy, people would pay more. But the problem is they have to roll around a glass to clear a copyright, getting the same deal with 13 songwriters and the master side and it's horribly inefficient. So I think part of the interesting thing with sync in the next generation is how do we do right by the music by making it more usable. Because there's also a couple of different ways this sync business cuts. So, you know, you have stuff that's used in a more traditional sense, and that has a real, like the standard pairing of like, it matter, it makes a huge creative difference and it's very hand selected. Front title and title, you know, big placement in a film television advertisement, but then you have this huge blanket sync business where a lot of the new promotion platform are AV platforms. It's technically synchronization, TikTok, YouTube, you know, Instagram it's technically sync. And I would argue that if there's one element of the business that gives radio a run for its money, it's AV platforms because what happens is people use it in so many videos that you end up hearing the song a thousand times, however many times it takes for you to be like, oh, my God, I have to hear it again. That's really the only place it happens and that's sync. There's a couple of different ways it cuts. You know, the great, like, placements of all time, and we had quite a few of them at Songs that sort of are like, you know, really make a song and make a film. Those are works of art. But also a lot of handling everything else is like maybe 50, 50 at best creative to handling. And so a lot of it is understanding, having those relationships, understanding how to price things, understanding how to clear repertoire, getting permission from the artist to do it. There's a lot of process that goes into it. [00:41:49] Dan Runcie: Is there a sync from your days that song that you look back on that you were like, yeah, that's the one. It took some work, but looking back that's the one.  [00:41:56] Matt Pincus: Wow. That's really, that be would a really better question for Carianne than for me. In terms of like the stuff that really made a difference to us as a business, one of the things that I think was meaningful was when Lorde did the Hunger Games soundtrack in the follow-up movie. That gave us a really good look at how music can be a content element in overall entertainment. The Weeknd did a similar thing with Black Panther where, so it was those sort of tie-in, you know, big-ticket where our music was woven into the substance of the film or the ad in some cases. That I think are really the special moments. Those are two that pop out. There's always like the random one where you have a relatively smaller artist and you get them a sync and, you know, it changes their life. It gives 'em more money than they ever thought was possible. There's also the ones, we had an artist who had a very high level of ethic and I won't name the artist, but independent artist, good earnings, but not a pop artist. And we got a $90,000 ad and for very good ethical reasons, he said, fuck, no, it's not going to happen, not going to approve it. And as much as I was like, it was to do early days of the company, it would've made a huge difference to write 90 grand into my books in a quarter. There's some beauty in the level of control that artists have over their own work in the music business that they don't in a lot of other media that I was like, you know what good for him, I guess we're saying no. There's this artisanal component to it that's really special. [00:43:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Being able to have that power and knowing when it isn't right. I've heard similar things as well from other podcasters I'll talk to when they get pitched with certain deals and stuff, and they'll be like, you know what, that's just not a product I'm willing to do, or that's just not an endorsement I'm willing to have. And it could have been a game changer for them and their business and everything. But I think we're going to see more of this with creators as they just are leveraging their own independence and being able to make their own decisions.  [00:43:59] Matt Pincus: Yeah, exactly.  [00:44:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. [00:44:00] Matt Pincus: Exactly.  [00:44:01] Dan Runcie: I want to close this conversation out talking about streaming 'cause I know this is a topic that you've shared a number of insights on over the years. And one of the things that you've said before that has always stuck out to me and resonated is this path that streaming has been on where it has been growing year over year, but a lot of people, especially in recent months, have started to question how many more subscribers out there are willing to pay the full price for streaming services and even if there is growth in some of these other regions where the revenue coming in is only a fraction of what it currently is now, what does that growth necessarily look like? So I hear that there's two camps there. Some people are skeptical about the future, but others are looking at smartphone adoption and just the way that things are trending as an indicator of where things are going. But how do you view the opportunity and especially streaming's growth from here on out.  [00:44:55] Matt Pincus: Okay. So I think there's a couple of different things there. You know, one is just on-demand streaming and what the growth curve looks like for on-demand stream. I think the broader question is what does overall growth look like for music consumption going forward? And I'm not sure those are totally the same thing. So, you know, listen, Spotify's done an epic job growing that business. It's a difficult business from just the word go, you know, you're relying on content licenses, you're inherently undifferentiated. Like on paper, it looks like this is impossible. And yet they build an unbelievable business out of it. And I really, you know, sort of think it's worth, you know, whatever opinions people have about streaming, to take a step back and realize that the people who did this originally, you know, Larry Jackson and Apple Music, the people who did it originally did a really fucking tremendous job of making it work. It will mature. There's some debate over whether it may have already started to mature in some distinct ways in Western, you know, sort of developed economies and even maybe in some of the larger sort of secondary territories. The really interesting places that we used to see at Songs in our own data are high population, low discretionary income countries, Indonesia, Philippines, a lot of the African continent. I'm not sure it's necessarily in all of those places going to be an on-demand streaming function that, you know, ultimately wins the day. There are people fucking with a model in a bunch of different ways over mobile. Boomplay in Africa is doing a buyout model. You know, it can be woven with other kinds of entertainment in a bundle in a bunch of different ways. So the question of where on-demand streaming goes, it is a little bit like anyone's guess, but there are different opinions between reasonable people about how the growth curve looks. You know, one of the things that I really love about the web three thing, and I think it's in the early days of really grinding the gears to figure out what actually works, 'cause like this sort of, you know, sucking on the laughing gas tank and you know, watching your crypto go up or over now. So it's entering into like a moment where people actually like have to figure out how it works. But the thing that I think is true is that it's unlocked a premium, that people are willing to pay over the cost of consuming music permanently. How big that premium is, we'll see. I think it was overinflated and inorganic in some of the early times of crypto, not a lot, humans are doing it and they're doing it for high ticket prices, you know, but if you look at some of the stuff, for example, that's going on in Asia, where people are throwing money at artists they like just because they want to you know, people paying sort of eye of the beholder price to be associated with an artist that they feel strongly about, that they love early in their career. Like, that's not going away. So whether, you know, the subscription fatigue is a reality, whether effective penny rates, times units of consumption are going up, flattening, going down. You know, we'll see. I mean, the Goldman Sachs people think they're going to go up forever. I'm not sure I totally agree with that. But what is true is that the willingness of people to invest in artists they love is increasing. And I don't think that's going back to zero, so it may not be, you know, that subgrowth continues on forever and on-demand streaming, but it may be that there are other ways that people can figure out how to engage with artists that keep the value, you know, exchange going up. Now, the one thing about streaming that's interesting is that, you know, the TikTok thing, in ways that people, like, talk shit about it all the time, whatever, but the thing that's interesting is that it did introduce frequency back into the equation. And one of the things about music that's unique is that you need to hear a song a number of times before you like it. Like at first you're like, I hate that. And then you hear it like five times and you're like, maybe I want to hear it again. And then by like, whatever end time you hear it, you're like, I can't get it out of my head. I got to hear it. It's like, Barry Weiss used to call it a record finding its bottom, where it would kind of come out and people would spin it, and then it would drop and then at some level would start to rise again. That's a function of promotion. That's a function of frequency. And in the early YouTube time and on-demand streaming time, you didn't really have that. Like, the people couldn't make something frequently play. And the AV platforms, not only TikTok, but also Snap and Instagram changed that equation and that music needs that. The thing that I'm wondering where it will happen, where it will come back into the equation though, is the music press, which has largely disappeared. And so I'm looking for who, on a consumer level there, people like yourself covering the business, part of it, that are doing an extraordinary job, but who sort of tells people what's good, gets it in front of them, filters it and what does that look like? It's probably not printed on a page. It's probably, it's sort of associated, I think in some way with what's going on with the NFT world, you know, with getting people to buy in, getting a community of people bought to projects, but it's still that same mechanism of filtering. And so I'm wondering where that's one of my thesis areas that I have my on. Where's the next one of those?  [00:50:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think this is a role that, of course, MTV and so many other places own and were able to do so well decades ago. And now the commonality I've always referred back to is that TikTok in many ways is the new MTV, but it's more so in the broader sense of just the cultural appeal, but not in that solo aspect of yes, if you want to know what this group of people are pushing, or what is the thing that's in, this is the place to go to find that. And I think it's very tough, the way that things are right now, just with how fragmented things are. But people are always going to want to feel like they're part of what's in or feel like they know what's in that desire also isn't going away. So I think there were always be a space for this, no matter how fragmented. [00:50:53] Matt Pincus: And people don't always know what they like. I mean, who knew that all these people love Kate Bush?  [00:50:58] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:50:58] Matt Pincus: We all understand why. She's amazing. Song's amazing, but people don't always know what they like until somebody shows it to them and repeats it. And then all of a sudden they can't get it out of their head. And that's the magic of music. So how that happens, you know, the cool kids like it up from the bottom, you know, like to be selective, know about the stuff first. The general audience likes to hear things multiple times and then, you know, be addicted to it. And I think that those things will reinvent themselves in a bunch of different ways going forward.  [00:51:27] Dan Runcie: For sure, Matt, before we let you go, do you have one big prediction for us on where you may see things in the next five years or one thing that you think will change from where music is right now to where things will be come 2027? [00:51:40] Matt Pincus: Well, I think as I touched on before, I think younger and younger people are going to be making music that the world reacts. And that is going to be miraculous when it happens. And not necessarily in like a sort of criss-cross Whip / Nae Nae type of way, but in a real, like expressing the core thoughts and feelings they have and getting them out there in a way that sounds good to the world. I think that's going to happen in a bunch of different ways. I think the way that repertoire moves across the planet is going to be revolutionary in the next five years. If there's one thing that's really going to change, you know, it used to be that sort of music went west to east and technology went east to west. Now, I think that's all scrambled eggs right now. If you look at stuff, like, you know, some of the music that's coming out of West Africa right now and how it gets into the global culture. It's not like in a, you know, used to be like you had like a world music business. Like, that's ripped up and thrown away. And so I think, you know, the way that the in-country community relates to the diaspora community in around the globe is going to be really different. You know, I think if there's one thing I have my eye on, it's sort of how all that stuff travels. And obviously, there's some obvious examples like BTS. But I think this is going to happen anywhere and everywhere. And one of the things that I heard somebody say the other day that I felt was really interesting is that the music business thinks about countries in its marketing. You know, they've Europe and Asia and Australia, Canada, US. It should be cities because music is about scenes and it's going to travel that way. And so your Amsterdam strategy is going to be different from your Seoul strategy is going to be different from your São Paulo strategy. And so if there's one like broad thing, I think we're going to look at the way that music travels around the planet in a completely different way.  [00:53:37] Dan Runcie: That's spot on. Look at the way we think about music here in the US. That should be an indication of how it should be looked at elsewhere, right? We know what Atlanta hip-hop sounds like compared to what you may hear in LA or even the New Orleans bounce sound. Like, it's so different place to place. So you look at a country like Nigeria, which is soon going to eclipse the US in population. What you may hear in Lagos would be completely different from other parts of the country. So that's a really great point.  [00:54:05] Matt Pincus: Yeah. So that would be like, if I, you know, sort of, if I had to obsess about something, it would be that.  [00:54:10] Dan Runcie: And I think a lot of people listening probably will too. This is a good one. I think that you got a bunch of notes for people to jot down. So Matt, thank you for making the time for this. This is fun. Thanks for coming on.  [00:54:21] Matt Pincus: Thank you so much. I just really appreciate your thinking to me. And it's a pleasure to talk to you about all this stuff. [00:54:27] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 02 Sep 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Investing $200 Million In Music with Matt Pincus full Dan Runcie One of the most successful entrepreneurs in the music industry is, without question, Matt Pincus. He sold his independent music publishing company, SONGS, for $160 million five years ago. And now, the music holdings company he co-founded, MUSIC, just raised $200 million to invest in music and music-adjacent companies.  Though, Matt doesn’t see MUSIC as an investment fund, but rather a holding company. That’s because he takes an operator-centric role in the companies he funds. And unlike the splashy catalog acquisitions that’ve dominated the space over the past few years, Matt is looking forward with his investments and targeting brand-new growth opportunities instead. In particular, Matt sees big opportunities in the technology sector, web3, and even record labels and publishing. At SONGS, Matt was able to spot and develop up-and-coming songwriters, inking early deals with the likes of Diplo, Lorde, and The Weeknd. He’ll be tasked with finding similar success at MUSIC.   Matt and I dove deep into a wide-range of topics during our conversation. Here’s a few highlights of what we covered: [2:58] Why Matt created MUSIC [8:07] MUSIC’s investment thesis? [14:40] What Matt doesn’t like about the music business  [19:49] Recent inflow of capital into the music business [21:15] Two lanes to entering music business [25:15] Finding left-of-center opportunities among musical talent  [27:30] The structural problem of the music business [31:35] Continuity was key to SONGS success [33:34] The Weeknd as a business blueprint for other artists [37:53] Sync business opportunities  [44:55] Have streaming subscriptions peaked? [47:50] Tiktok brought back music frequency [51:40] Matt’s five-year predictions Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Matt Pincus, @mpinc     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Newsly is your all-in-one audio super app to hear the trending topics on the entire web. Download newsly.me for free and use the promo code ‘TRAP’ to receive a 1-month free subscription.   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Matt Pincus: Defensibility in the music business is not a patent or a technology or some special recipe you have someplace. It's your understanding of music, the people that make it, and then your ability to develop relationships with people around the business and to keep your reputation such that people want to be with you. But the real key in, at least in the music technology side of it is you need to be able to spin the technology yourself and understand really how it works.  [00:00:37] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:56] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is with one of the most successful music entrepreneurs of the past few decades. His name is Matt Pincus and he is the founder and CEO of MUSIC, which is a holding company that invests in music tech and music-adjacent companies. MUSIC just launched a 200 million fund to invest in this space, so Matt and I talked all about it. He's looking for companies that still have a clear understanding for how music gets made and understand the art behind it. He's also looking for startups that have a true defensible moat that is something unique that they can do. And he's also looking for the companies that have a huge total addressable market that can clearly grow and expand as we're seeing things continue to grow in this space. Our conversation covered a bunch of topics in this space. We talked about sync and the impact of that. We also talked about how much further streaming can go. And we talked about a bunch of insightful music trends. Really fascinating conversation. I feel like every few months we have one of those conversations where people reach out to me and say, Hey, I took a bunch of notes in that conversation. Thank you for this. And I have a good feeling, I have a good feeling that this is going to be one of those conversations. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Matt Pincus.  [00:02:16] Dan Runcie: All right. Today, we're joined by Matt Pincus, who is the founder of MUSIC, which is a holding company that invested music and music-adjacent companies. Matt, I'm really excited to have this conversation because you have had a very impressive career with what you did with Songs and everything that you had done in publishing specifically. And what always stuck out to me about you in this space is how you've identified opportunities where others didn't see them. So I know when I saw the announcement for MUSIC and the $200 million fund you launched, I said, okay, he's seeing something and he's seeing an opportunity to dive in. So what did you see? What made you want to get involved with this? [00:02:58] Matt Pincus: Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm a big admirer of Trapital and your work in general. And I'm really happy to be with you here today. So, you know, I started music, it was sort of an organic process. I sold Songs after running it for about 13 years. And it was a fairly abrupt end. So we decided to sell the company and neither me nor my two partners really wanted to run it for somebody else. So we decided that once we sold it, it was time to step away and it was fairly quick. So, you know, I ran the company for 12-plus years. And then 90 days after the sale, I was out in the street, like, what am I going to do with my life? So it was a bit of an organic process. It started with meeting a lot of really interesting founders of music businesses and companies that were around the music business. It's obviously an interesting time in our business in a number of different ways. The streaming market has matured. There are a lot of music tech businesses with interesting founders cropping up over the past four or five years. The web three crypto business has, you know, started the early days of really coming online. And the way that labels, publishing companies, management companies reach audiences is really different than it was like, you know, six, seven years ago. So I met a lot of really interesting people. The first one was Steve Martocci, who was the founder of Splice. He and I hit it off particularly well. And I sort of said, listen, I've been, you know, doing talent deals with young people, you know, in the early twenties for the past 12 years, I think maybe the next chapter is working with founders of companies that are more like 10 years younger than me, as opposed to, you know, 20, early 20s. And taking the experience that I had in the last, like, four or five years of songs when we were trying to figure out how to really realize returns on the business and build on that to try to help people do the same thing. So I was out looking for, you know, are there interesting companies that I might be able to work with in some way or another? And the answer to that quickly became kind of yes, on the music tech side originally, in growth companies, when online music and music technology was shifting to a subscription-based backbone as opposed to a packet software business. And then also on the music side of it, you know, interesting independent labels, music companies operating in a different way. And so the first thing was, are there interesting companies out there? The second is, do they need capital and where would they get it from? And the third was, how am I going to get the money to invest in these businesses? So it was kind of a bit of a bootstrapping exercise where I would go find an opportunity to invest in a company, put some of my own money in LionTree, which sold songs for me and has been a partner and champion of mine since I sold the company, would invest some money too, and then we'd find some other people to round out the investment. We did that first with Splice, put about 20 million into the company over a period of time. We also did in the same way, made an investment in a company called HIFI, which is a FinTech platform benefiting artists in a bunch of different ways, and also with DICE, the ticketing business. And you know, they started, a couple of them did well and actually, they all did well. And so I decided that I wanted to raise some capital and have my own sort of, it's not really a fund. It's more of a holding company 'cause I'm less of an investor and more of an operator. And so the question became, how are we going to raise the money? Now Aryeh Bourkoff who runs LionTree is somewhat of a magic maker, and he took me on and introduced me to two families, the Schusterman Family and JS Capital, which is Jonathan Soros's capital vehicle. And they agreed to invest in a four-way partnership. So it's between me, LionTree, Schusterman Family, and JS Capital. And we formed MUSIC, which is a $200 million holding company. We do deals in a couple of different areas, music tech, which is sort of where I spent most of my time after Songs. We also invest in independent music companies like Songs. So labels publishing companies, management companies. Increasingly, a few of those functions are in one company, as opposed to when I was running Songs, it was like you were either a publisher or a label or a management company. And then we partner sometimes with a larger private equity firm if we are interested in acquiring something that's, you know, of a larger size. And so we're in the middle of one of those right now. And so we were able to find a bunch of interesting opportunity, a bunch of interesting ways, and it seems to me to be, you know, a really good time to be putting money to work in the music business.  [00:07:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's an exciting time to be investing in these companies and to be acquiring them too. And you mentioned something there about the types of companies you're looking at and whether they are modern music companies or whether they are doing something that's unique in the space. Can you talk a little bit more about your investment thesis and what you're looking for, and specifically, because, as you mentioned, you're not a fund, you're a holding company, so you're not necessarily just doing, you know, angel investments or early stage. You're trying to make investments for the long haul. So how does that shape your strategy? [00:08:07] Matt Pincus: Very good question. And I think the answer to that depends somewhat on the different areas of investment. So the first is in the technology side of the business, which is kind of where I started as an investor. So, you look for a couple of things there. So first of all, you need to invest in companies, not products. So some of the music startups can be sort of, it's an interesting widget, but can it be a scalable business? So you need to make sure that you have a couple of things in order to know that you're investing in a company that has the ability to grow. So the first thing is you need your own tech stack and it needs to be built to suit whatever market you want to be in. So for example, with Splice, one of the reasons, and there were several, but one of the reasons I invested in the company was because Steve had built this subscription stack from day one of the company. So it was a native SaaS company in a world where the rest of the market needed to move from the old way of doing business to the new way of doing business. Splice was always in the new way of doing business, so it was going to be ahead of the curve. And so you need to make sure that your technical capabilities and your technical assets are going to, you know, be where you want to go. The second is that you need to make sure you're in a part of the market that has a big enough user base to make a real company out of it. You know, it's great to make a widget that, you know, 1500 people love, love, love, but 1500 people is not a lot of people. So you need to make sure that the addressable market around the business has a lot of users. And again, in Splice's case, you know, they are the content business in music tech. So they can be used in an infinite amount of applications across the business, which gives them, you know, a really solid user base. And so, you know, that's kind of the second thing. And the third thing is that you need to kind of own where you live or have the ability to own where you live. So, you know, it's great if you get into a category in the technology side of the business, that, you know, breaks some ground and shows everybody what can be done. But if then, you know, Apple or Google just says, thank you very much and does it instead of you, it's not so great. So you need to have a defensible business that you can build and scale. And again, back to Splice, you know, they are the content leader and I'm a music publisher by trade, so content is the water supply in the music business. You know, in publishing, it's the song that starts the whole conversation. Splice owns music. And so no matter where the market is going to grow, no matter where it ends up going, they have the supply that feeds the music tech business. And so it's inherently defensible when it gets up to a certain level. You know, at this point they have 3 million works in their database. To catch up to them is, you know, difficult, if not impossible. And so you need to be defensible now on the music side of what I do, which is investing in music companies, there's a couple of things I look for. So first of all, I don't do catalog acquisitions. I invest in people. So the first thing is that you need to have really talented executives that understand music and know how to find repertoire and make it bigger. I tend to like businesses that give advances to artists. There's a certain way, like at Songs, we built a catalog over a long period of time, but we built it through signing young writers and giving them advances. So I call it a mattress out of sheets. If you do that one after another, over many, many years and you do it well, all of a sudden you wake up, you know, 7 to 10, 12 years later, and you're like, holy shit, it's a big catalog. And so I tend to like businesses that advance money to artists and build catalog that way or manage catalog that way. There's a certain magic to understanding how to compensate artists and doing it fairly. So I tend to look at that. You know, the music business has changed a lot. It used to be that if you wanted to be an independent, you needed to own your own vertical. And you know, at Songs, we had our global administration business that we owned and built. We had our own technology. So we were self-contained, standalone competitor. Now I think, you know, solutions have become available everywhere. There's a lot of good publishing administration, a lot of good record distribution solutions. There's a lot of off-the-shelf stuff you can get. It's really about music. It's really about understanding artists and the music that they make and connecting them with an audience. So I look for people who uniquely understand that. Now that can be, you know, somebody who has a geographical lock on a particular kind of music. It can be somebody that has a particularly unique understanding of how the studio works because I think if there's one big change in the music publishing business lately, it's that it's gone really back to the studio. And the interesting companies are actually making songs in real-time in a studio environment. So it can be that. It can be that you have another business that you do and music is associated with it. So why not, you know, get into the music business while you're doing whatever else you do, but you need to have some reason why you have access to a particular group of artists in a particular kind of repertoire, and you're helpful to that in some way or another. And so it's quite a different set of things that I look for on that side than on the technology side.  [00:13:34] Dan Runcie: And with the way that your firm is structured, too, I see parallels with the types of companies you're looking at, right? You're not just focused on one particular type of investment area. You have the music tech companies that you're looking at. Splice is an example. You also have the companies that are working more directly in music itself, whether that is giving advances or companies that have a unique edge on who they're reaching. And I think that translates as well when you're talking about the types of companies you're looking at because a lot of times, especially 10, 15 years ago, as you mentioned, there were more silos and now you're starting to see companies have different types of roles that they do or different divisions to try to be this nebulous term that I've heard several times as broader entertainment company. And while I think that that's effective, I could also see how that could challenge some of the challenges of being able to have a business that is defensible or having a moat and the focus that comes with that. So how do you balance that and what are the things that you look for when evaluating companies that are both trying to do it all, but also are trying to have something that they can be defensible with?  [00:14:40] Matt Pincus: Well, so on the music side of it, you know, it's about relationships. You know, the good companies, their equity is their relationships with different people around the business. And it's really a human-centric business. So, you know, defensibility often is correlated with reputation in the independent music business, at least. That was certainly true of Songs. One of the big success factors of the company and in fact, like, kind of our asset was that me and Ron and Carianne had really good relationships around the business that we built over many years, and that allowed us to punch above our weight class. You know, when we were a very small business, you know, we acted as a bigger business because we were able to get champions that helped us along the way, both in terms of the artists that were willing to sign with us, but also in terms of, you know, other people around the business that took us on and helped us out. Oddly enough defensibility in the music business is not a patent or a technology or some special recipe you have someplace. It's your understanding of music, the people that make it, and then your ability to develop relationships with people around the business and to keep your reputation such that people want to be with you. You know, on the tech side of it, it's a little bit different. You have to make sure that your innovation curve is constantly there. You have to make sure, like, I would not invest in a business that did not have a technical co-founder. You know, ideas are great. Everybody's got ideas. You know, there's an app for anything. But the real key in, at least in the music technology side of it is you need to be able to spin the technology yourself and understand really how it works, which when you get into the crypto side of it's really interesting 'cause a lot of people understand the implications of it, but they have no idea how the shit works. They don't actually use it. And they get kind of confused thinking that it's much more complicated than in fact it really is. Or, you know, they get so fascinated with the technology that they don't make a product that stands on its own bottom and has value to the end user. So it's a little bit different in the different areas of the market that you look at. And one of the reasons why I like the field that I play on and I feel very lucky to be able to do the different things that I can do with music is because some of it is about sort of analytical, scalable technology-oriented investments. And some of it is just about people in tunes. And so you're kind of mixing a lot of different things together. You know, the one thing that I don't like so much about the recent music business is somehow we all slipped into talking about music as assets and fractional finance and cash flows and securitization. And I'm like, listen, if I wanted to do all that shit, I do it not here. You know, the music business is not assets and finance and cash flows and, you know, securitization. The music business is moving people, motivating people, creating an audience, assembling humans to want what you make, and distributing that and delivering it and all the rest of that stuff. You know, the fact like, listen, what I'm doing is either really smart or really dumb because either you can make a real investment business just out of the music business. And I think you can because there's lots of different types of investments in music and there's lots of growth and lots of possibility. But also, you know, it's a pretty small business. And I live in, play, you know, a neighborhood, the size of a postage stamp. We'll see if they can be done, but I think originally, you know, it starts with the creative and it starts with the means of delivering the creative to the people that want it. And then all of the rest of this stuff, you know, yield, debt payments, multiples on equity, bonds, all the rest of this stuff just is a happy accident that comes from doing your job well. [00:18:35] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you mentioned this because there's a version of what you do that could easily look more like a traditional private equity firm, where they are just going in and doing all of the things that you just mentioned and they're coming more from that perspective, but in many ways, your defense is having this laser focus on music, but you're going deep within all of the areas that it encompasses. And with that, I have to assume that this also maybe has a bit of a flavor on what your take is about the money that has come into the music industry and some of those other non-music companies or those that are purely looking at it for the financial opportunity or for the noncorrelated opportunities and how that in a lot of ways, even though on paper, someone that's fundraising may see the money they can get from you versus the money they get from others. But I'm hearing it from the record labels. And especially the independent ones they're getting reached out to all the time now about acquisitions. And a lot of those calls are coming from non-music related companies that are trying to make those moves. So it's been fascinating to see how that shapes, but I do feel like you are going about this in a much more unique way than a lot of them are. [00:19:49] Matt Pincus: Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. I will say that the recent, like, huge inflow of capital into the music business has one very good byproduct, which is it's giving a lot of money to songwriters and artists. Some of these catalogs getting valued at 20 times, 30 times, you know, NPS where they would've been valued at 10, you know, four or five years ago, maybe 10 years ago. It just results in people that make great music, making a bunch of bucks. And there's nothing at all wrong with that. On the catalog side of it, it makes a little bit more sense that some of these like larger capital vehicles are coming into the market and, you know, bidding things up and structuring the leverage in a certain way that makes sense. There's a big difference between what's going on now and what was going on when this first happened, like in 2006, 2007 timeframe because the people that are doing it now can afford it. They've got lots and lots of money. They don't need big returns on that money. They have the ability to structure this stuff financially in ways that don't make no sense. And so it makes, you know, more sense that people are doing that with the IP catalog acquisition business. When it gets to new music, you know, I think it's still a human business. I think you got to know the people, you know, and you have to understand how it's really about managing what I refer to as the working capital of the business. So, you know, you need to advance money, you need to collect that money, you need to reinvest the money. And so a lot of that, you know, it's not a big enough business that you can structure it like a bunch of bonds. You need to kind of understand the market that you're in, how many deals you could possibly get, and what about you ought to pay for them, and what kind of infrastructure you need to address all of that to do a good job. And that's hard to know from outside of the business. It's even hard to know, like there's sort of two lanes in the music business. There's people who came up through the building where they started at majors and they kind of built their career, you know, up from coordinator to director to senior director to VPs, SVP, EVP. And then they end up running the company, a lot of great people who came up that way. And then there's people who kind of feed in the wild. Like, come outside of the building and need to figure out, like, what's available. And there's some real differences, you know. Sometimes they cross over like Ron Perry who was an instrumental person at Songs from, you know, the very beginning to through time we sold and now runs Columbia. So sometimes that happens. Or Carianne who, you know, also was my partner at Songs who now runs Warner Chappell with Guy Moot. It's like there, you know, it happens, but there are really two lanes. And I think in the independent side, it's a lot about systematic A&R so about looking at, listen, none of us are overfunded with tons of money. So, you know, everybody's stretching the dough. And it becomes about how can I build this system in the world that I live that can do deals inexpensively, and then find the ones that are working and invest and push them forward. And all the great independent music companies, you know, Chrysalis, Jive Zomba, A&M Rondor, all the great ones throughout history sort of did that really effectively or were usually like the other ones. So everybody goes to the majors to get their offer. And then there's these other cooler guys that are there, like, you know, kind of fucking with the majors by picking off all the left to center stuff that was us at Songs. You know, and all those other companies I just mentioned were kind of some version of that. But there's kind of, all of these mechanics that come both from history, so understanding the history of the business, but also understanding the people and how they sort of work 'cause as much as the world is changing and it's changing a lot, it's still kind of about A&R. It's still about creative in some way or another. I mean, Carianne's superpower, which she's got many, but the original superpower was understanding not only what works well to picture, but the people that choose music in film and television, advertisements, video games, she's particularly uniquely talented at that. And that's still a core skill that people need to understand. So, you know, I'm the guy that kind of pulls the pieces together. I don't do any of those things. I, you know, originally hired some great people and now I try to invest in great people that do all that stuff, but it's still about understanding it and if you're coming purely from the outside, I think it's challenging. [00:24:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think your career experience speaks a lot to this, right? You mentioned being able to find the left-of-center opportunities when you're at Songs, whether it was Lorde or The Weeknd. And you saw how those turned out. It worked out brilliantly. I'm curious to hear what you think about the way things are right now because, especially with the way that TikTok is and so many of the companies, whether it's the major labels or the independents, they all have access to the same information. So the cost of acquiring and being able to find and develop those same artists is much more expensive. So what do you think those left-of-center opportunities look like today in the current environment where it feels as if there are more and more outlets to find different types of people, but the way that people are going about it, it does seem like a lot of people are now playing a pretty similar game. [00:25:13] Matt Pincus: You mean like a moneyball... [00:25:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah.  [00:25:15] Matt Pincus: ...type of, yeah. So, you know, again, I go back to like, there's sort of in the building and there's outside of the building way of thinking. So in the major system, it makes logical sense that they want to sort of hang back, see what reacts, and go and get it when it reacts, the more predictable something is the more you're willing to pay for it. That makes logical sense. There's nothing wrong with it. They're not idiots for doing that. It's just the way that they traditionally operate. And now it's about, like, seeing the shiny pennies and then grabbing them right away, whatever the cost, because music is much more efficient than it used to be. It used to be that you'd have to, like, release a whole album and sink a bunch of capital into seeing if something works. Now you can kind of tell pretty quickly if something's going to work. So it makes sense to pay a lot for something predictable, as opposed to, you know, paying a little bit for stuff that is wildly uncertain. So, you know, that makes total sense. I think on the independent side, and I really count in that like A&R mentality, like people who are finding artists and developing artists. So it's not just like, you know, independent labels, but it's also like, you know, Electric Feel is a really interesting company that does this, Hallwood. You know, APG is obviously the really great example of this, of finding artists really early and developing them into something or representing people who do that. A lot of, you know, that is about iteration and about understanding, you know, what makes a good story in a particular market. Now, part of that is the music itself. Part of that, most of it is the music itself, but part of that is also all the other stuff around it. You know, how you unfold the narrative, how you stage market entry for an artist. You know, all of those things, again, I come back to the stick to your knitting thing where it's like, as much as the world changes, it kind of remains the same to some degree. So, you know, the interesting and frustrating thing about the music business for people that run companies like I did at Songs is that there's just not that many good, really good, talented people, you know. If there's one structural problem in the music business is there's not enough, really good A&R people, promotion people, you know, creative people.  [00:27:29] Dan Runcie: And why do you think that is? [00:27:30] Matt Pincus: I think it's hard, for one, I think it's hard. And as much as people try to play moneyball, now I'm a big believer in systematic A&R, which some people would consider, you know, moneyball. So in other words, like having a funnel that gives you a group of things that might work, that I'm a big believer in that as a starting point, but that only gets you like 51% confidence. That's not much more than a coin toss. The rest of it is really doing the work of developing the product itself, the music itself, and then the story around it. And it's just a hard business, plus you got to know everybody, you know. So it takes a while to develop those relationships and those skills. One of the things that's interesting when I look on the music tech side of it that I think is one of the great things is that the technological development in music production is allowing people to learn how to use the gear quicker. So you're going to have hit singles coming from 13-year-olds within no time at all. And that used to not be possible because it would take you four or five, six years just to learn how to twist the knobs on a board. Like, it was hard. Now with like, you know, presets, with things like Splice, with AI-assisted creation, you know, anything that makes it easier for an artist to get what's inside of them out, the learning curve is becoming less steep. And that's a good thing because talent shines in that environment. You know, it's one thing to be able to, you know, have a knowledge-base to tweak things. It's another thing to just be a talented and expressive artist with urgency. And so maybe some of that will happen. And on the executive side, like on the A&R side, as things like radio, you know, radio's been so monolithic and so hard to penetrate. And now maybe it's loosening up a little bit, but it still takes a while to figure out what's going to work. It's very hard. And it is one thing to be a fan and be like, this is good, this is not good. It's another thing to take a look at something that doesn't yet exist and be like, this is what it will look like if we can pull it off. I don't have that talent, you know. I'm not an A&R person, but I watch people do it and it's pretty miraculous. And it's not just A&R, it's also promotion, which is an undervalued piece of the equation and increasingly, marketing, digital marketing, like the first cut of it was just, you know, sort of advertising on Facebook. Now it's much more sophisticated than that. And so I feel like it's just hard and I wish there were, you know, there's also the part of the problem in the music business is nobody trains anybody. There's no HR infrastructure. You know, I went to Columbia Business School and I had been in the music business. I didn't have one single meeting about a job that came through the school.  [00:30:14] Dan Runcie: I'm not surprised. That wasn't the case for me either.  [00:30:17] Matt Pincus: That’s what I'm saying like, nobody trained you. I mean, I remember going on a job interview when I was like 21 coming right out of college or 23 coming right out of college with a guy at ICM. And he said, what do you want to do? I said, I want to be an A&R .He said, great, find a band. That was it. That was the interview. And so it's like, it's that kind of business, which is kind of wonderful in its own way, but it doesn't train people really. And so that's also part of the reason. We don't develop our talent, executive talent pipeline in a really great way. And that's why people like, you know, Mike Caren at APG is so special. You know, the LVRN guys are so special because they bring along executives in a really concerted kind of way. And I wish there was more of that in the business in general.  [00:30:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's a huge opportunity for it. And I think you see a lot of it play out when there are executive shake ups and who gets picked for certain things and why people get picked for certain things. And to some extent, you see this in other places too, whether there's a mix of internal hires versus external. But one thing that I have noticed is the units that do tend to stick together, or there is some continuity there. You do see a lot of success happen if they understand what works, everyone's into it. And I think some of these other places where it could be a bit of revolving doors with who's in leadership, who's trying to get where it's very tough to have that infrastructure.  [00:31:35] Matt Pincus: And that was one of the great blessings for me at Songs, which is not, doesn't speak well for the industry, particularly, but, you know, Ron and Carianne were two of the most talented people of their generation for sure. And the business didn't know what to do with them. The fact that I could get the two of them and we could all stay together for 12 years and build a company is like a miracle. And that was a big part of the reason why it all worked is because we knew each other really well and people knew us as a unit. We had different things we did. It's a little bit like, you know, kind of what's going on with the professional sports a little bit too, is, you know, it's great that all these individual players are celebrities. And again, great that athletes are making more money, but great teams don't stay together in the same way that they did before. And I think that's changing a little bit now because you don't have to do a deal with a major and get your money the traditional way in order to build a company. And that's one of the reasons I exist as MUSIC, is because there's opportunities to bring outside capital into the business under terms that look a little bit more like sort of venture capital or private equity, which is in a way more fair than the traditional music business has been on a per transaction basis. There's natural reasons why the major music companies finance the music business for as many decades as they did, and it's not to rip people off, it's because nobody else would do it. But now it's a different world and so hopefully some of these things will change. You know, when you have really great entrepreneurs that own their own business, as opposed to, you know, in some JV with a major that's really a compensation agreement, then it's in their interest, like it was in mine when I was running Songs, to bring along really talented people and find new ones. And so that's one of the things that I've sort of hoped for in some way.  [00:33:24] Dan Runcie: Are there any artists that stick out to you as examples of yes, they're building their business and they're doing this the way that could be a blueprint for what we'll see more frequently moving forward? [00:33:34] Matt Pincus: Ones that I talk about all the time is The Weeknd, which we were involved with, you know, from fairly early on. And Sal who's, you know, has been his manager for a very long time, and Cash. You know, I think you're going to see what they did with XO happening in a lot of different ways going forward, where you get a group of people that form a partner and distribute responsibilities between artist, manager. You know, there's people like La Mar Taylor involved with those guys that does all the visual. There's a lot of cooks that need to be in the kitchen to make something really successfully work. The label model of sign to a label, they'll do everything that existed in, like, the nineties is way long gone. Even management where you sort of have somebody who's a commission person that's just doing the business of an artist, that's not true of the good ones anymore. The good ones get in it with the artist and really help them build an entrepreneurial life. I mean, to be an artist now, you need to, like, be like a 140-character joke writer. You need to be an accountant. You need to have a corporate entity. You need to deal with all these different vendors. And you need to be like, you know, P. T. Barnum, like, step right up, step right up, check this out, you're going to love it. It's a complex skill set. And so I think one of the things that you're going to see in the talent representation business, like the management business is I think you're going to see more entity partnership formation, where people are going to go into partnership together. Managers and artists will be like Sal, Sal and Abel have been together for, how long now? Like, I mean... [00:35:08] Dan Runcie: It's at least a decade, right? [00:35:09] Matt Pincus: Yeah. And they've been able to scale and grow and make a lot of money and still be together. And that's because everyone provides value. I'm sure they adjust their relationship, however, over time, I don't know. But I think you're going to see that approach because it takes a village in a way to make really durable stuff. I mean, if you're talking about a viral hit that's here today, gone today. That's one thing. But if you're talking about really building a franchise over a period of time, it requires a lot of work from a lot of people. So I think you'll see sort of, you know, entity formation with partners that include business people and artists in with interest aligned. You know, Diplo's another one. I mean, you know, TMWRK and Diplo have been together for again, going back to since I started working with them. So that was 2011, you know? You look at firms like CRUSH, Jonathan, Daniel has built franchise after franchise of artists that stay with him forever. And he works with him as a partner and that's why it works. So I think you're going to see more of that going forward and and I think that's a good thing. [00:36:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. The Weeknd's a very good example because even from the origins of his career, you could see the mentality of where he saw things. Drake famously offered him the opportunity to come on OVO Sound. They had the whole Toronto connection, Drake put him onto that blog post and everything, but then he was like, no, I don't want to be under another artist when I think I can be just as big as that artist, even bigger and do my own thing and look what he's been able to do now. So I think a lot of it... [00:36:41] Matt Pincus: And by the way, the record deal is a distribution deal.  [00:36:43] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:36:44] Matt Pincus: You know, I mean, there you go. And so in terms of distribution of value, you know, if you can do it, if you're smart enough to have a cool head and plan like those guys did, you know, you can have a much larger enterprise than you normally would. So I hold them up as an example of, you know, what I think is going to happen and is happening really in lots of different areas of the business now. [00:37:07] Dan Runcie: One of the other areas that has gotten a bunch of attention right now has been syncs, and this has been growing, I think, especially given what we've seen with people, especially from outside the music industry, trying to get more involved, but especially this past summer with Kate Bush being featured in Stranger Things. This conversation has been happening more and more. This is another example where it's a mix of that art and science of what does finding a good sync looks like and what happens with it. And I think so much of it, there's maybe a little bit of luck with just how the internet works and how things take off, but there's also a good amount of work that's put into finding the right type of placement for the right type of artists that could make all those things work to make it happen. So how do you view the opportunities for sync right now?  [00:37:53] Matt Pincus: You know, it's interesting. I was sort of a student of Carianne. She taught me the sync business. I literally remember she had a binder where she kept every single interaction she ever had around a song and a placement. And she not only showed me how it all worked, but then we made a software platform out of her own process of how she did it. So I was trained by the best. One of the interesting things about sync is how it always comes back in cycles. You know, when we started Songs, it was like 2004, sync was the whole game. Like, between 2006 and sort of 2009 timeframe, it was the most important thing in a pitch. You know, it was responsible for a lot of our really early successes. And then when it became a largely pop business there in the early days of streaming, it was like sort of radio and super reactive and viral repertoire. It sort of stepped to the background for a minute. And now with the way that kids are bouncing around on a playlist from like, you know, Taylor to like a hip-hop track to, you know, Kate Bush back to Metallica and they don't care. It's become all of a sudden, perhaps one of the top, most important ways repertoire gets discovered now. It's amazing the enduring power of synchronization over time. The thing about sync that I think is interesting is part of it is selection. Like, is this song going to work to picture? But there's a lot that goes into making the deal happen. I mean, that Kate Bush deal as my understanding, I was not involved, but my understanding from, like, just hearing about it was that it took 'em forever to get the clearance done. So a lot of it is not only just is this going to work the picture? Is it the right BPM, the right mood, you know, the right tonality, the right cultural notes, which is a very special thing that music supervisors are particularly good at, but it's also the real politic of like getting the fucking thing cleared. And one of the things that I look at, I tend to have thesis sort of areas when I look at investing in the music business, and one of them is just how fuck the sync business is. That, you know, there should be a buy it now button in the music business if you want to use something for your film, buy it now. And if it was easy, people would pay more. But the problem is they have to roll around a glass to clear a copyright, getting the same deal with 13 songwriters and the master side and it's horribly inefficient. So I think part of the interesting thing with sync in the next generation is how do we do right by the music by making it more usable. Because there's also a couple of different ways this sync business cuts. So, you know, you have stuff that's used in a more traditional sense, and that has a real, like the standard pairing of like, it matter, it makes a huge creative difference and it's very hand selected. Front title and title, you know, big placement in a film television advertisement, but then you have this huge blanket sync business where a lot of the new promotion platform are AV platforms. It's technically synchronization, TikTok, YouTube, you know, Instagram it's technically sync. And I would argue that if there's one element of the business that gives radio a run for its money, it's AV platforms because what happens is people use it in so many videos that you end up hearing the song a thousand times, however many times it takes for you to be like, oh, my God, I have to hear it again. That's really the only place it happens and that's sync. There's a couple of different ways it cuts. You know, the great, like, placements of all time, and we had quite a few of them at Songs that sort of are like, you know, really make a song and make a film. Those are works of art. But also a lot of handling everything else is like maybe 50, 50 at best creative to handling. And so a lot of it is understanding, having those relationships, understanding how to price things, understanding how to clear repertoire, getting permission from the artist to do it. There's a lot of process that goes into it. [00:41:49] Dan Runcie: Is there a sync from your days that song that you look back on that you were like, yeah, that's the one. It took some work, but looking back that's the one.  [00:41:56] Matt Pincus: Wow. That's really, that be would a really better question for Carianne than for me. In terms of like the stuff that really made a difference to us as a business, one of the things that I think was meaningful was when Lorde did the Hunger Games soundtrack in the follow-up movie. That gave us a really good look at how music can be a content element in overall entertainment. The Weeknd did a similar thing with Black Panther where, so it was those sort of tie-in, you know, big-ticket where our music was woven into the substance of the film or the ad in some cases. That I think are really the special moments. Those are two that pop out. There's always like the random one where you have a relatively smaller artist and you get them a sync and, you know, it changes their life. It gives 'em more money than they ever thought was possible. There's also the ones, we had an artist who had a very high level of ethic and I won't name the artist, but independent artist, good earnings, but not a pop artist. And we got a $90,000 ad and for very good ethical reasons, he said, fuck, no, it's not going to happen, not going to approve it. And as much as I was like, it was to do early days of the company, it would've made a huge difference to write 90 grand into my books in a quarter. There's some beauty in the level of control that artists have over their own work in the music business that they don't in a lot of other media that I was like, you know what good for him, I guess we're saying no. There's this artisanal component to it that's really special. [00:43:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Being able to have that power and knowing when it isn't right. I've heard similar things as well from other podcasters I'll talk to when they get pitched with certain deals and stuff, and they'll be like, you know what, that's just not a product I'm willing to do, or that's just not an endorsement I'm willing to have. And it could have been a game changer for them and their business and everything. But I think we're going to see more of this with creators as they just are leveraging their own independence and being able to make their own decisions.  [00:43:59] Matt Pincus: Yeah, exactly.  [00:44:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. [00:44:00] Matt Pincus: Exactly.  [00:44:01] Dan Runcie: I want to close this conversation out talking about streaming 'cause I know this is a topic that you've shared a number of insights on over the years. And one of the things that you've said before that has always stuck out to me and resonated is this path that streaming has been on where it has been growing year over year, but a lot of people, especially in recent months, have started to question how many more subscribers out there are willing to pay the full price for streaming services and even if there is growth in some of these other regions where the revenue coming in is only a fraction of what it currently is now, what does that growth necessarily look like? So I hear that there's two camps there. Some people are skeptical about the future, but others are looking at smartphone adoption and just the way that things are trending as an indicator of where things are going. But how do you view the opportunity and especially streaming's growth from here on out.  [00:44:55] Matt Pincus: Okay. So I think there's a couple of different things there. You know, one is just on-demand streaming and what the growth curve looks like for on-demand stream. I think the broader question is what does overall growth look like for music consumption going forward? And I'm not sure those are totally the same thing. So, you know, listen, Spotify's done an epic job growing that business. It's a difficult business from just the word go, you know, you're relying on content licenses, you're inherently undifferentiated. Like on paper, it looks like this is impossible. And yet they build an unbelievable business out of it. And I really, you know, sort of think it's worth, you know, whatever opinions people have about streaming, to take a step back and realize that the people who did this originally, you know, Larry Jackson and Apple Music, the people who did it originally did a really fucking tremendous job of making it work. It will mature. There's some debate over whether it may have already started to mature in some distinct ways in Western, you know, sort of developed economies and even maybe in some of the larger sort of secondary territories. The really interesting places that we used to see at Songs in our own data are high population, low discretionary income countries, Indonesia, Philippines, a lot of the African continent. I'm not sure it's necessarily in all of those places going to be an on-demand streaming function that, you know, ultimately wins the day. There are people fucking with a model in a bunch of different ways over mobile. Boomplay in Africa is doing a buyout model. You know, it can be woven with other kinds of entertainment in a bundle in a bunch of different ways. So the question of where on-demand streaming goes, it is a little bit like anyone's guess, but there are different opinions between reasonable people about how the growth curve looks. You know, one of the things that I really love about the web three thing, and I think it's in the early days of really grinding the gears to figure out what actually works, 'cause like this sort of, you know, sucking on the laughing gas tank and you know, watching your crypto go up or over now. So it's entering into like a moment where people actually like have to figure out how it works. But the thing that I think is true is that it's unlocked a premium, that people are willing to pay over the cost of consuming music permanently. How big that premium is, we'll see. I think it was overinflated and inorganic in some of the early times of crypto, not a lot, humans are doing it and they're doing it for high ticket prices, you know, but if you look at some of the stuff, for example, that's going on in Asia, where people are throwing money at artists they like just because they want to you know, people paying sort of eye of the beholder price to be associated with an artist that they feel strongly about, that they love early in their career. Like, that's not going away. So whether, you know, the subscription fatigue is a reality, whether effective penny rates, times units of consumption are going up, flattening, going down. You know, we'll see. I mean, the Goldman Sachs people think they're going to go up forever. I'm not sure I totally agree with that. But what is true is that the willingness of people to invest in artists they love is increasing. And I don't think that's going back to zero, so it may not be, you know, that subgrowth continues on forever and on-demand streaming, but it may be that there are other ways that people can figure out how to engage with artists that keep the value, you know, exchange going up. Now, the one thing about streaming that's interesting is that, you know, the TikTok thing, in ways that people, like, talk shit about it all the time, whatever, but the thing that's interesting is that it did introduce frequency back into the equation. And one of the things about music that's unique is that you need to hear a song a number of times before you like it. Like at first you're like, I hate that. And then you hear it like five times and you're like, maybe I want to hear it again. And then by like, whatever end time you hear it, you're like, I can't get it out of my head. I got to hear it. It's like, Barry Weiss used to call it a record finding its bottom, where it would kind of come out and people would spin it, and then it would drop and then at some level would start to rise again. That's a function of promotion. That's a function of frequency. And in the early YouTube time and on-demand streaming time, you didn't really have that. Like, the people couldn't make something frequently play. And the AV platforms, not only TikTok, but also Snap and Instagram changed that equation and that music needs that. The thing that I'm wondering where it will happen, where it will come back into the equation though, is the music press, which has largely disappeared. And so I'm looking for who, on a consumer level there, people like yourself covering the business, part of it, that are doing an extraordinary job, but who sort of tells people what's good, gets it in front of them, filters it and what does that look like? It's probably not printed on a page. It's probably, it's sort of associated, I think in some way with what's going on with the NFT world, you know, with getting people to buy in, getting a community of people bought to projects, but it's still that same mechanism of filtering. And so I'm wondering where that's one of my thesis areas that I have my on. Where's the next one of those?  [00:50:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think this is a role that, of course, MTV and so many other places own and were able to do so well decades ago. And now the commonality I've always referred back to is that TikTok in many ways is the new MTV, but it's more so in the broader sense of just the cultural appeal, but not in that solo aspect of yes, if you want to know what this group of people are pushing, or what is the thing that's in, this is the place to go to find that. And I think it's very tough, the way that things are right now, just with how fragmented things are. But people are always going to want to feel like they're part of what's in or feel like they know what's in that desire also isn't going away. So I think there were always be a space for this, no matter how fragmented. [00:50:53] Matt Pincus: And people don't always know what they like. I mean, who knew that all these people love Kate Bush?  [00:50:58] Dan Runcie: Right.  [00:50:58] Matt Pincus: We all understand why. She's amazing. Song's amazing, but people don't always know what they like until somebody shows it to them and repeats it. And then all of a sudden they can't get it out of their head. And that's the magic of music. So how that happens, you know, the cool kids like it up from the bottom, you know, like to be selective, know about the stuff first. The general audience likes to hear things multiple times and then, you know, be addicted to it. And I think that those things will reinvent themselves in a bunch of different ways going forward.  [00:51:27] Dan Runcie: For sure, Matt, before we let you go, do you have one big prediction for us on where you may see things in the next five years or one thing that you think will change from where music is right now to where things will be come 2027? [00:51:40] Matt Pincus: Well, I think as I touched on before, I think younger and younger people are going to be making music that the world reacts. And that is going to be miraculous when it happens. And not necessarily in like a sort of criss-cross Whip / Nae Nae type of way, but in a real, like expressing the core thoughts and feelings they have and getting them out there in a way that sounds good to the world. I think that's going to happen in a bunch of different ways. I think the way that repertoire moves across the planet is going to be revolutionary in the next five years. If there's one thing that's really going to change, you know, it used to be that sort of music went west to east and technology went east to west. Now, I think that's all scrambled eggs right now. If you look at stuff, like, you know, some of the music that's coming out of West Africa right now and how it gets into the global culture. It's not like in a, you know, used to be like you had like a world music business. Like, that's ripped up and thrown away. And so I think, you know, the way that the in-country community relates to the diaspora community in around the globe is going to be really different. You know, I think if there's one thing I have my eye on, it's sort of how all that stuff travels. And obviously, there's some obvious examples like BTS. But I think this is going to happen anywhere and everywhere. And one of the things that I heard somebody say the other day that I felt was really interesting is that the music business thinks about countries in its marketing. You know, they've Europe and Asia and Australia, Canada, US. It should be cities because music is about scenes and it's going to travel that way. And so your Amsterdam strategy is going to be different from your Seoul strategy is going to be different from your São Paulo strategy. And so if there's one like broad thing, I think we're going to look at the way that music travels around the planet in a completely different way.  [00:53:37] Dan Runcie: That's spot on. Look at the way we think about music here in the US. That should be an indication of how it should be looked at elsewhere, right? We know what Atlanta hip-hop sounds like compared to what you may hear in LA or even the New Orleans bounce sound. Like, it's so different place to place. So you look at a country like Nigeria, which is soon going to eclipse the US in population. What you may hear in Lagos would be completely different from other parts of the country. So that's a really great point.  [00:54:05] Matt Pincus: Yeah. So that would be like, if I, you know, sort of, if I had to obsess about something, it would be that.  [00:54:10] Dan Runcie: And I think a lot of people listening probably will too. This is a good one. I think that you got a bunch of notes for people to jot down. So Matt, thank you for making the time for this. This is fun. Thanks for coming on.  [00:54:21] Matt Pincus: Thank you so much. I just really appreciate your thinking to me. And it's a pleasure to talk to you about all this stuff. [00:54:27] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. One of the most successful entrepreneurs in the music industry is, without question, Matt Pincus. He sold his independent music publishing company, SONGS, for $160 million five years ago. And now, the music holdings company he co-founded, MUSIC, just raised $200 million to invest in music and music-adjacent companies. 


Though, Matt doesn’t see MUSIC as an investment fund, but rather a holding company. That’s because he takes an operator-centric role in the companies he funds. And unlike the splashy catalog acquisitions that’ve dominated the space over the past few years, Matt is looking forward with his investments and targeting brand-new growth opportunities instead.


In particular, Matt sees big opportunities in the technology sector, web3, and even record labels and publishing. At SONGS, Matt was able to spot and develop up-and-coming songwriters, inking early deals with the likes of Diplo, Lorde, and The Weeknd. He’ll be tasked with finding similar success at MUSIC.  


Matt and I dove deep into a wide-range of topics during our conversation. Here’s a few highlights of what we covered:


[2:58] Why Matt created MUSIC

[8:07] MUSIC’s investment thesis?

[14:40] What Matt doesn’t like about the music business 

[19:49] Recent inflow of capital into the music business

[21:15] Two lanes to entering music business

[25:15] Finding left-of-center opportunities among musical talent 

[27:30] The structural problem of the music business

[31:35] Continuity was key to SONGS success

[33:34] The Weeknd as a business blueprint for other artists

[37:53] Sync business opportunities 

[44:55] Have streaming subscriptions peaked?

[47:50] Tiktok brought back music frequency

[51:40] Matt’s five-year predictions



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Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Matt Pincus, @mpinc

 

 

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TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Matt Pincus: Defensibility in the music business is not a patent or a technology or some special recipe you have someplace. It's your understanding of music, the people that make it, and then your ability to develop relationships with people around the business and to keep your reputation such that people want to be with you. But the real key in, at least in the music technology side of it is you need to be able to spin the technology yourself and understand really how it works. 

[00:00:37] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 

[00:00:56] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is with one of the most successful music entrepreneurs of the past few decades. His name is Matt Pincus and he is the founder and CEO of MUSIC, which is a holding company that invests in music tech and music-adjacent companies. MUSIC just launched a 200 million fund to invest in this space, so Matt and I talked all about it. He's looking for companies that still have a clear understanding for how music gets made and understand the art behind it. He's also looking for startups that have a true defensible moat that is something unique that they can do. And he's also looking for the companies that have a huge total addressable market that can clearly grow and expand as we're seeing things continue to grow in this space. Our conversation covered a bunch of topics in this space. We talked about sync and the impact of that. We also talked about how much further streaming can go. And we talked about a bunch of insightful music trends. Really fascinating conversation. I feel like every few months we have one of those conversations where people reach out to me and say, Hey, I took a bunch of notes in that conversation. Thank you for this. And I have a good feeling, I have a good feeling that this is going to be one of those conversations. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Matt Pincus. 

[00:02:16] Dan Runcie: All right. Today, we're joined by Matt Pincus, who is the founder of MUSIC, which is a holding company that invested music and music-adjacent companies. Matt, I'm really excited to have this conversation because you have had a very impressive career with what you did with Songs and everything that you had done in publishing specifically. And what always stuck out to me about you in this space is how you've identified opportunities where others didn't see them. So I know when I saw the announcement for MUSIC and the $200 million fund you launched, I said, okay, he's seeing something and he's seeing an opportunity to dive in. So what did you see? What made you want to get involved with this?

[00:02:58] Matt Pincus: Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm a big admirer of Trapital and your work in general. And I'm really happy to be with you here today. So, you know, I started music, it was sort of an organic process. I sold Songs after running it for about 13 years. And it was a fairly abrupt end. So we decided to sell the company and neither me nor my two partners really wanted to run it for somebody else. So we decided that once we sold it, it was time to step away and it was fairly quick. So, you know, I ran the company for 12-plus years. And then 90 days after the sale, I was out in the street, like, what am I going to do with my life? So it was a bit of an organic process. It started with meeting a lot of really interesting founders of music businesses and companies that were around the music business. It's obviously an interesting time in our business in a number of different ways. The streaming market has matured. There are a lot of music tech businesses with interesting founders cropping up over the past four or five years. The web three crypto business has, you know, started the early days of really coming online. And the way that labels, publishing companies, management companies reach audiences is really different than it was like, you know, six, seven years ago. So I met a lot of really interesting people. The first one was Steve Martocci, who was the founder of Splice. He and I hit it off particularly well. And I sort of said, listen, I've been, you know, doing talent deals with young people, you know, in the early twenties for the past 12 years, I think maybe the next chapter is working with founders of companies that are more like 10 years younger than me, as opposed to, you know, 20, early 20s. And taking the experience that I had in the last, like, four or five years of songs when we were trying to figure out how to really realize returns on the business and build on that to try to help people do the same thing. So I was out looking for, you know, are there interesting companies that I might be able to work with in some way or another? And the answer to that quickly became kind of yes, on the music tech side originally, in growth companies, when online music and music technology was shifting to a subscription-based backbone as opposed to a packet software business. And then also on the music side of it, you know, interesting independent labels, music companies operating in a different way. And so the first thing was, are there interesting companies out there? The second is, do they need capital and where would they get it from? And the third was, how am I going to get the money to invest in these businesses? So it was kind of a bit of a bootstrapping exercise where I would go find an opportunity to invest in a company, put some of my own money in LionTree, which sold songs for me and has been a partner and champion of mine since I sold the company, would invest some money too, and then we'd find some other people to round out the investment. We did that first with Splice, put about 20 million into the company over a period of time. We also did in the same way, made an investment in a company called HIFI, which is a FinTech platform benefiting artists in a bunch of different ways, and also with DICE, the ticketing business. And you know, they started, a couple of them did well and actually, they all did well. And so I decided that I wanted to raise some capital and have my own sort of, it's not really a fund. It's more of a holding company 'cause I'm less of an investor and more of an operator. And so the question became, how are we going to raise the money? Now Aryeh Bourkoff who runs LionTree is somewhat of a magic maker, and he took me on and introduced me to two families, the Schusterman Family and JS Capital, which is Jonathan Soros's capital vehicle. And they agreed to invest in a four-way partnership. So it's between me, LionTree, Schusterman Family, and JS Capital. And we formed MUSIC, which is a $200 million holding company. We do deals in a couple of different areas, music tech, which is sort of where I spent most of my time after Songs. We also invest in independent music companies like Songs. So labels publishing companies, management companies. Increasingly, a few of those functions are in one company, as opposed to when I was running Songs, it was like you were either a publisher or a label or a management company. And then we partner sometimes with a larger private equity firm if we are interested in acquiring something that's, you know, of a larger size. And so we're in the middle of one of those right now. And so we were able to find a bunch of interesting opportunity, a bunch of interesting ways, and it seems to me to be, you know, a really good time to be putting money to work in the music business. 

[00:07:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's an exciting time to be investing in these companies and to be acquiring them too. And you mentioned something there about the types of companies you're looking at and whether they are modern music companies or whether they are doing something that's unique in the space. Can you talk a little bit more about your investment thesis and what you're looking for, and specifically, because, as you mentioned, you're not a fund, you're a holding company, so you're not necessarily just doing, you know, angel investments or early stage. You're trying to make investments for the long haul. So how does that shape your strategy?

[00:08:07] Matt Pincus: Very good question. And I think the answer to that depends somewhat on the different areas of investment. So the first is in the technology side of the business, which is kind of where I started as an investor. So, you look for a couple of things there. So first of all, you need to invest in companies, not products. So some of the music startups can be sort of, it's an interesting widget, but can it be a scalable business? So you need to make sure that you have a couple of things in order to know that you're investing in a company that has the ability to grow. So the first thing is you need your own tech stack and it needs to be built to suit whatever market you want to be in. So for example, with Splice, one of the reasons, and there were several, but one of the reasons I invested in the company was because Steve had built this subscription stack from day one of the company. So it was a native SaaS company in a world where the rest of the market needed to move from the old way of doing business to the new way of doing business. Splice was always in the new way of doing business, so it was going to be ahead of the curve. And so you need to make sure that your technical capabilities and your technical assets are going to, you know, be where you want to go. The second is that you need to make sure you're in a part of the market that has a big enough user base to make a real company out of it. You know, it's great to make a widget that, you know, 1500 people love, love, love, but 1500 people is not a lot of people. So you need to make sure that the addressable market around the business has a lot of users. And again, in Splice's case, you know, they are the content business in music tech. So they can be used in an infinite amount of applications across the business, which gives them, you know, a really solid user base. And so, you know, that's kind of the second thing. And the third thing is that you need to kind of own where you live or have the ability to own where you live. So, you know, it's great if you get into a category in the technology side of the business, that, you know, breaks some ground and shows everybody what can be done. But if then, you know, Apple or Google just says, thank you very much and does it instead of you, it's not so great. So you need to have a defensible business that you can build and scale. And again, back to Splice, you know, they are the content leader and I'm a music publisher by trade, so content is the water supply in the music business. You know, in publishing, it's the song that starts the whole conversation. Splice owns music. And so no matter where the market is going to grow, no matter where it ends up going, they have the supply that feeds the music tech business. And so it's inherently defensible when it gets up to a certain level. You know, at this point they have 3 million works in their database. To catch up to them is, you know, difficult, if not impossible. And so you need to be defensible now on the music side of what I do, which is investing in music companies, there's a couple of things I look for. So first of all, I don't do catalog acquisitions. I invest in people. So the first thing is that you need to have really talented executives that understand music and know how to find repertoire and make it bigger. I tend to like businesses that give advances to artists. There's a certain way, like at Songs, we built a catalog over a long period of time, but we built it through signing young writers and giving them advances. So I call it a mattress out of sheets. If you do that one after another, over many, many years and you do it well, all of a sudden you wake up, you know, 7 to 10, 12 years later, and you're like, holy shit, it's a big catalog. And so I tend to like businesses that advance money to artists and build catalog that way or manage catalog that way. There's a certain magic to understanding how to compensate artists and doing it fairly. So I tend to look at that. You know, the music business has changed a lot. It used to be that if you wanted to be an independent, you needed to own your own vertical. And you know, at Songs, we had our global administration business that we owned and built. We had our own technology. So we were self-contained, standalone competitor. Now I think, you know, solutions have become available everywhere. There's a lot of good publishing administration, a lot of good record distribution solutions. There's a lot of off-the-shelf stuff you can get. It's really about music. It's really about understanding artists and the music that they make and connecting them with an audience. So I look for people who uniquely understand that. Now that can be, you know, somebody who has a geographical lock on a particular kind of music. It can be somebody that has a particularly unique understanding of how the studio works because I think if there's one big change in the music publishing business lately, it's that it's gone really back to the studio. And the interesting companies are actually making songs in real-time in a studio environment. So it can be that. It can be that you have another business that you do and music is associated with it. So why not, you know, get into the music business while you're doing whatever else you do, but you need to have some reason why you have access to a particular group of artists in a particular kind of repertoire, and you're helpful to that in some way or another. And so it's quite a different set of things that I look for on that side than on the technology side. 

[00:13:34] Dan Runcie: And with the way that your firm is structured, too, I see parallels with the types of companies you're looking at, right? You're not just focused on one particular type of investment area. You have the music tech companies that you're looking at. Splice is an example. You also have the companies that are working more directly in music itself, whether that is giving advances or companies that have a unique edge on who they're reaching. And I think that translates as well when you're talking about the types of companies you're looking at because a lot of times, especially 10, 15 years ago, as you mentioned, there were more silos and now you're starting to see companies have different types of roles that they do or different divisions to try to be this nebulous term that I've heard several times as broader entertainment company. And while I think that that's effective, I could also see how that could challenge some of the challenges of being able to have a business that is defensible or having a moat and the focus that comes with that. So how do you balance that and what are the things that you look for when evaluating companies that are both trying to do it all, but also are trying to have something that they can be defensible with? 

[00:14:40] Matt Pincus: Well, so on the music side of it, you know, it's about relationships. You know, the good companies, their equity is their relationships with different people around the business. And it's really a human-centric business. So, you know, defensibility often is correlated with reputation in the independent music business, at least. That was certainly true of Songs. One of the big success factors of the company and in fact, like, kind of our asset was that me and Ron and Carianne had really good relationships around the business that we built over many years, and that allowed us to punch above our weight class. You know, when we were a very small business, you know, we acted as a bigger business because we were able to get champions that helped us along the way, both in terms of the artists that were willing to sign with us, but also in terms of, you know, other people around the business that took us on and helped us out. Oddly enough defensibility in the music business is not a patent or a technology or some special recipe you have someplace. It's your understanding of music, the people that make it, and then your ability to develop relationships with people around the business and to keep your reputation such that people want to be with you. You know, on the tech side of it, it's a little bit different. You have to make sure that your innovation curve is constantly there. You have to make sure, like, I would not invest in a business that did not have a technical co-founder. You know, ideas are great. Everybody's got ideas. You know, there's an app for anything. But the real key in, at least in the music technology side of it is you need to be able to spin the technology yourself and understand really how it works, which when you get into the crypto side of it's really interesting 'cause a lot of people understand the implications of it, but they have no idea how the shit works. They don't actually use it. And they get kind of confused thinking that it's much more complicated than in fact it really is. Or, you know, they get so fascinated with the technology that they don't make a product that stands on its own bottom and has value to the end user. So it's a little bit different in the different areas of the market that you look at. And one of the reasons why I like the field that I play on and I feel very lucky to be able to do the different things that I can do with music is because some of it is about sort of analytical, scalable technology-oriented investments. And some of it is just about people in tunes. And so you're kind of mixing a lot of different things together. You know, the one thing that I don't like so much about the recent music business is somehow we all slipped into talking about music as assets and fractional finance and cash flows and securitization. And I'm like, listen, if I wanted to do all that shit, I do it not here. You know, the music business is not assets and finance and cash flows and, you know, securitization. The music business is moving people, motivating people, creating an audience, assembling humans to want what you make, and distributing that and delivering it and all the rest of that stuff. You know, the fact like, listen, what I'm doing is either really smart or really dumb because either you can make a real investment business just out of the music business. And I think you can because there's lots of different types of investments in music and there's lots of growth and lots of possibility. But also, you know, it's a pretty small business. And I live in, play, you know, a neighborhood, the size of a postage stamp. We'll see if they can be done, but I think originally, you know, it starts with the creative and it starts with the means of delivering the creative to the people that want it. And then all of the rest of this stuff, you know, yield, debt payments, multiples on equity, bonds, all the rest of this stuff just is a happy accident that comes from doing your job well.

[00:18:35] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you mentioned this because there's a version of what you do that could easily look more like a traditional private equity firm, where they are just going in and doing all of the things that you just mentioned and they're coming more from that perspective, but in many ways, your defense is having this laser focus on music, but you're going deep within all of the areas that it encompasses. And with that, I have to assume that this also maybe has a bit of a flavor on what your take is about the money that has come into the music industry and some of those other non-music companies or those that are purely looking at it for the financial opportunity or for the noncorrelated opportunities and how that in a lot of ways, even though on paper, someone that's fundraising may see the money they can get from you versus the money they get from others. But I'm hearing it from the record labels. And especially the independent ones they're getting reached out to all the time now about acquisitions. And a lot of those calls are coming from non-music related companies that are trying to make those moves. So it's been fascinating to see how that shapes, but I do feel like you are going about this in a much more unique way than a lot of them are.

[00:19:49] Matt Pincus: Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. I will say that the recent, like, huge inflow of capital into the music business has one very good byproduct, which is it's giving a lot of money to songwriters and artists. Some of these catalogs getting valued at 20 times, 30 times, you know, NPS where they would've been valued at 10, you know, four or five years ago, maybe 10 years ago. It just results in people that make great music, making a bunch of bucks. And there's nothing at all wrong with that. On the catalog side of it, it makes a little bit more sense that some of these like larger capital vehicles are coming into the market and, you know, bidding things up and structuring the leverage in a certain way that makes sense. There's a big difference between what's going on now and what was going on when this first happened, like in 2006, 2007 timeframe because the people that are doing it now can afford it. They've got lots and lots of money. They don't need big returns on that money. They have the ability to structure this stuff financially in ways that don't make no sense. And so it makes, you know, more sense that people are doing that with the IP catalog acquisition business. When it gets to new music, you know, I think it's still a human business. I think you got to know the people, you know, and you have to understand how it's really about managing what I refer to as the working capital of the business. So, you know, you need to advance money, you need to collect that money, you need to reinvest the money. And so a lot of that, you know, it's not a big enough business that you can structure it like a bunch of bonds. You need to kind of understand the market that you're in, how many deals you could possibly get, and what about you ought to pay for them, and what kind of infrastructure you need to address all of that to do a good job. And that's hard to know from outside of the business. It's even hard to know, like there's sort of two lanes in the music business. There's people who came up through the building where they started at majors and they kind of built their career, you know, up from coordinator to director to senior director to VPs, SVP, EVP. And then they end up running the company, a lot of great people who came up that way. And then there's people who kind of feed in the wild. Like, come outside of the building and need to figure out, like, what's available. And there's some real differences, you know. Sometimes they cross over like Ron Perry who was an instrumental person at Songs from, you know, the very beginning to through time we sold and now runs Columbia. So sometimes that happens. Or Carianne who, you know, also was my partner at Songs who now runs Warner Chappell with Guy Moot. It's like there, you know, it happens, but there are really two lanes. And I think in the independent side, it's a lot about systematic A&R so about looking at, listen, none of us are overfunded with tons of money. So, you know, everybody's stretching the dough. And it becomes about how can I build this system in the world that I live that can do deals inexpensively, and then find the ones that are working and invest and push them forward. And all the great independent music companies, you know, Chrysalis, Jive Zomba, A&M Rondor, all the great ones throughout history sort of did that really effectively or were usually like the other ones. So everybody goes to the majors to get their offer. And then there's these other cooler guys that are there, like, you know, kind of fucking with the majors by picking off all the left to center stuff that was us at Songs. You know, and all those other companies I just mentioned were kind of some version of that. But there's kind of, all of these mechanics that come both from history, so understanding the history of the business, but also understanding the people and how they sort of work 'cause as much as the world is changing and it's changing a lot, it's still kind of about A&R. It's still about creative in some way or another. I mean, Carianne's superpower, which she's got many, but the original superpower was understanding not only what works well to picture, but the people that choose music in film and television, advertisements, video games, she's particularly uniquely talented at that. And that's still a core skill that people need to understand. So, you know, I'm the guy that kind of pulls the pieces together. I don't do any of those things. I, you know, originally hired some great people and now I try to invest in great people that do all that stuff, but it's still about understanding it and if you're coming purely from the outside, I think it's challenging.

[00:24:22] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think your career experience speaks a lot to this, right? You mentioned being able to find the left-of-center opportunities when you're at Songs, whether it was Lorde or The Weeknd. And you saw how those turned out. It worked out brilliantly. I'm curious to hear what you think about the way things are right now because, especially with the way that TikTok is and so many of the companies, whether it's the major labels or the independents, they all have access to the same information. So the cost of acquiring and being able to find and develop those same artists is much more expensive. So what do you think those left-of-center opportunities look like today in the current environment where it feels as if there are more and more outlets to find different types of people, but the way that people are going about it, it does seem like a lot of people are now playing a pretty similar game.

[00:25:13] Matt Pincus: You mean like a moneyball...

[00:25:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah. 

[00:25:15] Matt Pincus: ...type of, yeah. So, you know, again, I go back to like, there's sort of in the building and there's outside of the building way of thinking. So in the major system, it makes logical sense that they want to sort of hang back, see what reacts, and go and get it when it reacts, the more predictable something is the more you're willing to pay for it. That makes logical sense. There's nothing wrong with it. They're not idiots for doing that. It's just the way that they traditionally operate. And now it's about, like, seeing the shiny pennies and then grabbing them right away, whatever the cost, because music is much more efficient than it used to be. It used to be that you'd have to, like, release a whole album and sink a bunch of capital into seeing if something works. Now you can kind of tell pretty quickly if something's going to work. So it makes sense to pay a lot for something predictable, as opposed to, you know, paying a little bit for stuff that is wildly uncertain. So, you know, that makes total sense. I think on the independent side, and I really count in that like A&R mentality, like people who are finding artists and developing artists. So it's not just like, you know, independent labels, but it's also like, you know, Electric Feel is a really interesting company that does this, Hallwood. You know, APG is obviously the really great example of this, of finding artists really early and developing them into something or representing people who do that. A lot of, you know, that is about iteration and about understanding, you know, what makes a good story in a particular market. Now, part of that is the music itself. Part of that, most of it is the music itself, but part of that is also all the other stuff around it. You know, how you unfold the narrative, how you stage market entry for an artist. You know, all of those things, again, I come back to the stick to your knitting thing where it's like, as much as the world changes, it kind of remains the same to some degree. So, you know, the interesting and frustrating thing about the music business for people that run companies like I did at Songs is that there's just not that many good, really good, talented people, you know. If there's one structural problem in the music business is there's not enough, really good A&R people, promotion people, you know, creative people. 

[00:27:29] Dan Runcie: And why do you think that is?

[00:27:30] Matt Pincus: I think it's hard, for one, I think it's hard. And as much as people try to play moneyball, now I'm a big believer in systematic A&R, which some people would consider, you know, moneyball. So in other words, like having a funnel that gives you a group of things that might work, that I'm a big believer in that as a starting point, but that only gets you like 51% confidence. That's not much more than a coin toss. The rest of it is really doing the work of developing the product itself, the music itself, and then the story around it. And it's just a hard business, plus you got to know everybody, you know. So it takes a while to develop those relationships and those skills. One of the things that's interesting when I look on the music tech side of it that I think is one of the great things is that the technological development in music production is allowing people to learn how to use the gear quicker. So you're going to have hit singles coming from 13-year-olds within no time at all. And that used to not be possible because it would take you four or five, six years just to learn how to twist the knobs on a board. Like, it was hard. Now with like, you know, presets, with things like Splice, with AI-assisted creation, you know, anything that makes it easier for an artist to get what's inside of them out, the learning curve is becoming less steep. And that's a good thing because talent shines in that environment. You know, it's one thing to be able to, you know, have a knowledge-base to tweak things. It's another thing to just be a talented and expressive artist with urgency. And so maybe some of that will happen. And on the executive side, like on the A&R side, as things like radio, you know, radio's been so monolithic and so hard to penetrate. And now maybe it's loosening up a little bit, but it still takes a while to figure out what's going to work. It's very hard. And it is one thing to be a fan and be like, this is good, this is not good. It's another thing to take a look at something that doesn't yet exist and be like, this is what it will look like if we can pull it off. I don't have that talent, you know. I'm not an A&R person, but I watch people do it and it's pretty miraculous. And it's not just A&R, it's also promotion, which is an undervalued piece of the equation and increasingly, marketing, digital marketing, like the first cut of it was just, you know, sort of advertising on Facebook. Now it's much more sophisticated than that. And so I feel like it's just hard and I wish there were, you know, there's also the part of the problem in the music business is nobody trains anybody. There's no HR infrastructure. You know, I went to Columbia Business School and I had been in the music business. I didn't have one single meeting about a job that came through the school. 

[00:30:14] Dan Runcie: I'm not surprised. That wasn't the case for me either. 

[00:30:17] Matt Pincus: That’s what I'm saying like, nobody trained you. I mean, I remember going on a job interview when I was like 21 coming right out of college or 23 coming right out of college with a guy at ICM. And he said, what do you want to do? I said, I want to be an A&R .He said, great, find a band. That was it. That was the interview. And so it's like, it's that kind of business, which is kind of wonderful in its own way, but it doesn't train people really. And so that's also part of the reason. We don't develop our talent, executive talent pipeline in a really great way. And that's why people like, you know, Mike Caren at APG is so special. You know, the LVRN guys are so special because they bring along executives in a really concerted kind of way. And I wish there was more of that in the business in general. 

[00:30:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's a huge opportunity for it. And I think you see a lot of it play out when there are executive shake ups and who gets picked for certain things and why people get picked for certain things. And to some extent, you see this in other places too, whether there's a mix of internal hires versus external. But one thing that I have noticed is the units that do tend to stick together, or there is some continuity there. You do see a lot of success happen if they understand what works, everyone's into it. And I think some of these other places where it could be a bit of revolving doors with who's in leadership, who's trying to get where it's very tough to have that infrastructure. 

[00:31:35] Matt Pincus: And that was one of the great blessings for me at Songs, which is not, doesn't speak well for the industry, particularly, but, you know, Ron and Carianne were two of the most talented people of their generation for sure. And the business didn't know what to do with them. The fact that I could get the two of them and we could all stay together for 12 years and build a company is like a miracle. And that was a big part of the reason why it all worked is because we knew each other really well and people knew us as a unit. We had different things we did. It's a little bit like, you know, kind of what's going on with the professional sports a little bit too, is, you know, it's great that all these individual players are celebrities. And again, great that athletes are making more money, but great teams don't stay together in the same way that they did before. And I think that's changing a little bit now because you don't have to do a deal with a major and get your money the traditional way in order to build a company. And that's one of the reasons I exist as MUSIC, is because there's opportunities to bring outside capital into the business under terms that look a little bit more like sort of venture capital or private equity, which is in a way more fair than the traditional music business has been on a per transaction basis. There's natural reasons why the major music companies finance the music business for as many decades as they did, and it's not to rip people off, it's because nobody else would do it. But now it's a different world and so hopefully some of these things will change. You know, when you have really great entrepreneurs that own their own business, as opposed to, you know, in some JV with a major that's really a compensation agreement, then it's in their interest, like it was in mine when I was running Songs, to bring along really talented people and find new ones. And so that's one of the things that I've sort of hoped for in some way. 

[00:33:24] Dan Runcie: Are there any artists that stick out to you as examples of yes, they're building their business and they're doing this the way that could be a blueprint for what we'll see more frequently moving forward?

[00:33:34] Matt Pincus: Ones that I talk about all the time is The Weeknd, which we were involved with, you know, from fairly early on. And Sal who's, you know, has been his manager for a very long time, and Cash. You know, I think you're going to see what they did with XO happening in a lot of different ways going forward, where you get a group of people that form a partner and distribute responsibilities between artist, manager. You know, there's people like La Mar Taylor involved with those guys that does all the visual. There's a lot of cooks that need to be in the kitchen to make something really successfully work. The label model of sign to a label, they'll do everything that existed in, like, the nineties is way long gone. Even management where you sort of have somebody who's a commission person that's just doing the business of an artist, that's not true of the good ones anymore. The good ones get in it with the artist and really help them build an entrepreneurial life. I mean, to be an artist now, you need to, like, be like a 140-character joke writer. You need to be an accountant. You need to have a corporate entity. You need to deal with all these different vendors. And you need to be like, you know, P. T. Barnum, like, step right up, step right up, check this out, you're going to love it. It's a complex skill set. And so I think one of the things that you're going to see in the talent representation business, like the management business is I think you're going to see more entity partnership formation, where people are going to go into partnership together. Managers and artists will be like Sal, Sal and Abel have been together for, how long now? Like, I mean...

[00:35:08] Dan Runcie: It's at least a decade, right?

[00:35:09] Matt Pincus: Yeah. And they've been able to scale and grow and make a lot of money and still be together. And that's because everyone provides value. I'm sure they adjust their relationship, however, over time, I don't know. But I think you're going to see that approach because it takes a village in a way to make really durable stuff. I mean, if you're talking about a viral hit that's here today, gone today. That's one thing. But if you're talking about really building a franchise over a period of time, it requires a lot of work from a lot of people. So I think you'll see sort of, you know, entity formation with partners that include business people and artists in with interest aligned. You know, Diplo's another one. I mean, you know, TMWRK and Diplo have been together for again, going back to since I started working with them. So that was 2011, you know? You look at firms like CRUSH, Jonathan, Daniel has built franchise after franchise of artists that stay with him forever. And he works with him as a partner and that's why it works. So I think you're going to see more of that going forward and and I think that's a good thing.

[00:36:13] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. The Weeknd's a very good example because even from the origins of his career, you could see the mentality of where he saw things. Drake famously offered him the opportunity to come on OVO Sound. They had the whole Toronto connection, Drake put him onto that blog post and everything, but then he was like, no, I don't want to be under another artist when I think I can be just as big as that artist, even bigger and do my own thing and look what he's been able to do now. So I think a lot of it...

[00:36:41] Matt Pincus: And by the way, the record deal is a distribution deal. 

[00:36:43] Dan Runcie: Right. 

[00:36:44] Matt Pincus: You know, I mean, there you go. And so in terms of distribution of value, you know, if you can do it, if you're smart enough to have a cool head and plan like those guys did, you know, you can have a much larger enterprise than you normally would. So I hold them up as an example of, you know, what I think is going to happen and is happening really in lots of different areas of the business now.

[00:37:07] Dan Runcie: One of the other areas that has gotten a bunch of attention right now has been syncs, and this has been growing, I think, especially given what we've seen with people, especially from outside the music industry, trying to get more involved, but especially this past summer with Kate Bush being featured in Stranger Things. This conversation has been happening more and more. This is another example where it's a mix of that art and science of what does finding a good sync looks like and what happens with it. And I think so much of it, there's maybe a little bit of luck with just how the internet works and how things take off, but there's also a good amount of work that's put into finding the right type of placement for the right type of artists that could make all those things work to make it happen. So how do you view the opportunities for sync right now? 

[00:37:53] Matt Pincus: You know, it's interesting. I was sort of a student of Carianne. She taught me the sync business. I literally remember she had a binder where she kept every single interaction she ever had around a song and a placement. And she not only showed me how it all worked, but then we made a software platform out of her own process of how she did it. So I was trained by the best. One of the interesting things about sync is how it always comes back in cycles. You know, when we started Songs, it was like 2004, sync was the whole game. Like, between 2006 and sort of 2009 timeframe, it was the most important thing in a pitch. You know, it was responsible for a lot of our really early successes. And then when it became a largely pop business there in the early days of streaming, it was like sort of radio and super reactive and viral repertoire. It sort of stepped to the background for a minute. And now with the way that kids are bouncing around on a playlist from like, you know, Taylor to like a hip-hop track to, you know, Kate Bush back to Metallica and they don't care. It's become all of a sudden, perhaps one of the top, most important ways repertoire gets discovered now. It's amazing the enduring power of synchronization over time. The thing about sync that I think is interesting is part of it is selection. Like, is this song going to work to picture? But there's a lot that goes into making the deal happen. I mean, that Kate Bush deal as my understanding, I was not involved, but my understanding from, like, just hearing about it was that it took 'em forever to get the clearance done. So a lot of it is not only just is this going to work the picture? Is it the right BPM, the right mood, you know, the right tonality, the right cultural notes, which is a very special thing that music supervisors are particularly good at, but it's also the real politic of like getting the fucking thing cleared. And one of the things that I look at, I tend to have thesis sort of areas when I look at investing in the music business, and one of them is just how fuck the sync business is. That, you know, there should be a buy it now button in the music business if you want to use something for your film, buy it now. And if it was easy, people would pay more. But the problem is they have to roll around a glass to clear a copyright, getting the same deal with 13 songwriters and the master side and it's horribly inefficient. So I think part of the interesting thing with sync in the next generation is how do we do right by the music by making it more usable. Because there's also a couple of different ways this sync business cuts. So, you know, you have stuff that's used in a more traditional sense, and that has a real, like the standard pairing of like, it matter, it makes a huge creative difference and it's very hand selected. Front title and title, you know, big placement in a film television advertisement, but then you have this huge blanket sync business where a lot of the new promotion platform are AV platforms. It's technically synchronization, TikTok, YouTube, you know, Instagram it's technically sync. And I would argue that if there's one element of the business that gives radio a run for its money, it's AV platforms because what happens is people use it in so many videos that you end up hearing the song a thousand times, however many times it takes for you to be like, oh, my God, I have to hear it again. That's really the only place it happens and that's sync. There's a couple of different ways it cuts. You know, the great, like, placements of all time, and we had quite a few of them at Songs that sort of are like, you know, really make a song and make a film. Those are works of art. But also a lot of handling everything else is like maybe 50, 50 at best creative to handling. And so a lot of it is understanding, having those relationships, understanding how to price things, understanding how to clear repertoire, getting permission from the artist to do it. There's a lot of process that goes into it.

[00:41:49] Dan Runcie: Is there a sync from your days that song that you look back on that you were like, yeah, that's the one. It took some work, but looking back that's the one. 

[00:41:56] Matt Pincus: Wow. That's really, that be would a really better question for Carianne than for me. In terms of like the stuff that really made a difference to us as a business, one of the things that I think was meaningful was when Lorde did the Hunger Games soundtrack in the follow-up movie. That gave us a really good look at how music can be a content element in overall entertainment. The Weeknd did a similar thing with Black Panther where, so it was those sort of tie-in, you know, big-ticket where our music was woven into the substance of the film or the ad in some cases. That I think are really the special moments. Those are two that pop out. There's always like the random one where you have a relatively smaller artist and you get them a sync and, you know, it changes their life. It gives 'em more money than they ever thought was possible. There's also the ones, we had an artist who had a very high level of ethic and I won't name the artist, but independent artist, good earnings, but not a pop artist. And we got a $90,000 ad and for very good ethical reasons, he said, fuck, no, it's not going to happen, not going to approve it. And as much as I was like, it was to do early days of the company, it would've made a huge difference to write 90 grand into my books in a quarter. There's some beauty in the level of control that artists have over their own work in the music business that they don't in a lot of other media that I was like, you know what good for him, I guess we're saying no. There's this artisanal component to it that's really special.

[00:43:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Being able to have that power and knowing when it isn't right. I've heard similar things as well from other podcasters I'll talk to when they get pitched with certain deals and stuff, and they'll be like, you know what, that's just not a product I'm willing to do, or that's just not an endorsement I'm willing to have. And it could have been a game changer for them and their business and everything. But I think we're going to see more of this with creators as they just are leveraging their own independence and being able to make their own decisions. 

[00:43:59] Matt Pincus: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:44:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah.

[00:44:00] Matt Pincus: Exactly. 

[00:44:01] Dan Runcie: I want to close this conversation out talking about streaming 'cause I know this is a topic that you've shared a number of insights on over the years. And one of the things that you've said before that has always stuck out to me and resonated is this path that streaming has been on where it has been growing year over year, but a lot of people, especially in recent months, have started to question how many more subscribers out there are willing to pay the full price for streaming services and even if there is growth in some of these other regions where the revenue coming in is only a fraction of what it currently is now, what does that growth necessarily look like? So I hear that there's two camps there. Some people are skeptical about the future, but others are looking at smartphone adoption and just the way that things are trending as an indicator of where things are going. But how do you view the opportunity and especially streaming's growth from here on out. 

[00:44:55] Matt Pincus: Okay. So I think there's a couple of different things there. You know, one is just on-demand streaming and what the growth curve looks like for on-demand stream. I think the broader question is what does overall growth look like for music consumption going forward? And I'm not sure those are totally the same thing. So, you know, listen, Spotify's done an epic job growing that business. It's a difficult business from just the word go, you know, you're relying on content licenses, you're inherently undifferentiated. Like on paper, it looks like this is impossible. And yet they build an unbelievable business out of it. And I really, you know, sort of think it's worth, you know, whatever opinions people have about streaming, to take a step back and realize that the people who did this originally, you know, Larry Jackson and Apple Music, the people who did it originally did a really fucking tremendous job of making it work. It will mature. There's some debate over whether it may have already started to mature in some distinct ways in Western, you know, sort of developed economies and even maybe in some of the larger sort of secondary territories. The really interesting places that we used to see at Songs in our own data are high population, low discretionary income countries, Indonesia, Philippines, a lot of the African continent. I'm not sure it's necessarily in all of those places going to be an on-demand streaming function that, you know, ultimately wins the day. There are people fucking with a model in a bunch of different ways over mobile. Boomplay in Africa is doing a buyout model. You know, it can be woven with other kinds of entertainment in a bundle in a bunch of different ways. So the question of where on-demand streaming goes, it is a little bit like anyone's guess, but there are different opinions between reasonable people about how the growth curve looks. You know, one of the things that I really love about the web three thing, and I think it's in the early days of really grinding the gears to figure out what actually works, 'cause like this sort of, you know, sucking on the laughing gas tank and you know, watching your crypto go up or over now. So it's entering into like a moment where people actually like have to figure out how it works. But the thing that I think is true is that it's unlocked a premium, that people are willing to pay over the cost of consuming music permanently. How big that premium is, we'll see. I think it was overinflated and inorganic in some of the early times of crypto, not a lot, humans are doing it and they're doing it for high ticket prices, you know, but if you look at some of the stuff, for example, that's going on in Asia, where people are throwing money at artists they like just because they want to you know, people paying sort of eye of the beholder price to be associated with an artist that they feel strongly about, that they love early in their career. Like, that's not going away. So whether, you know, the subscription fatigue is a reality, whether effective penny rates, times units of consumption are going up, flattening, going down. You know, we'll see. I mean, the Goldman Sachs people think they're going to go up forever. I'm not sure I totally agree with that. But what is true is that the willingness of people to invest in artists they love is increasing. And I don't think that's going back to zero, so it may not be, you know, that subgrowth continues on forever and on-demand streaming, but it may be that there are other ways that people can figure out how to engage with artists that keep the value, you know, exchange going up. Now, the one thing about streaming that's interesting is that, you know, the TikTok thing, in ways that people, like, talk shit about it all the time, whatever, but the thing that's interesting is that it did introduce frequency back into the equation. And one of the things about music that's unique is that you need to hear a song a number of times before you like it. Like at first you're like, I hate that. And then you hear it like five times and you're like, maybe I want to hear it again. And then by like, whatever end time you hear it, you're like, I can't get it out of my head. I got to hear it. It's like, Barry Weiss used to call it a record finding its bottom, where it would kind of come out and people would spin it, and then it would drop and then at some level would start to rise again. That's a function of promotion. That's a function of frequency. And in the early YouTube time and on-demand streaming time, you didn't really have that. Like, the people couldn't make something frequently play. And the AV platforms, not only TikTok, but also Snap and Instagram changed that equation and that music needs that. The thing that I'm wondering where it will happen, where it will come back into the equation though, is the music press, which has largely disappeared. And so I'm looking for who, on a consumer level there, people like yourself covering the business, part of it, that are doing an extraordinary job, but who sort of tells people what's good, gets it in front of them, filters it and what does that look like? It's probably not printed on a page. It's probably, it's sort of associated, I think in some way with what's going on with the NFT world, you know, with getting people to buy in, getting a community of people bought to projects, but it's still that same mechanism of filtering. And so I'm wondering where that's one of my thesis areas that I have my on. Where's the next one of those? 

[00:50:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think this is a role that, of course, MTV and so many other places own and were able to do so well decades ago. And now the commonality I've always referred back to is that TikTok in many ways is the new MTV, but it's more so in the broader sense of just the cultural appeal, but not in that solo aspect of yes, if you want to know what this group of people are pushing, or what is the thing that's in, this is the place to go to find that. And I think it's very tough, the way that things are right now, just with how fragmented things are. But people are always going to want to feel like they're part of what's in or feel like they know what's in that desire also isn't going away. So I think there were always be a space for this, no matter how fragmented.

[00:50:53] Matt Pincus: And people don't always know what they like. I mean, who knew that all these people love Kate Bush? 

[00:50:58] Dan Runcie: Right. 

[00:50:58] Matt Pincus: We all understand why. She's amazing. Song's amazing, but people don't always know what they like until somebody shows it to them and repeats it. And then all of a sudden they can't get it out of their head. And that's the magic of music. So how that happens, you know, the cool kids like it up from the bottom, you know, like to be selective, know about the stuff first. The general audience likes to hear things multiple times and then, you know, be addicted to it. And I think that those things will reinvent themselves in a bunch of different ways going forward. 

[00:51:27] Dan Runcie: For sure, Matt, before we let you go, do you have one big prediction for us on where you may see things in the next five years or one thing that you think will change from where music is right now to where things will be come 2027?

[00:51:40] Matt Pincus: Well, I think as I touched on before, I think younger and younger people are going to be making music that the world reacts. And that is going to be miraculous when it happens. And not necessarily in like a sort of criss-cross Whip / Nae Nae type of way, but in a real, like expressing the core thoughts and feelings they have and getting them out there in a way that sounds good to the world. I think that's going to happen in a bunch of different ways. I think the way that repertoire moves across the planet is going to be revolutionary in the next five years. If there's one thing that's really going to change, you know, it used to be that sort of music went west to east and technology went east to west. Now, I think that's all scrambled eggs right now. If you look at stuff, like, you know, some of the music that's coming out of West Africa right now and how it gets into the global culture. It's not like in a, you know, used to be like you had like a world music business. Like, that's ripped up and thrown away. And so I think, you know, the way that the in-country community relates to the diaspora community in around the globe is going to be really different. You know, I think if there's one thing I have my eye on, it's sort of how all that stuff travels. And obviously, there's some obvious examples like BTS. But I think this is going to happen anywhere and everywhere. And one of the things that I heard somebody say the other day that I felt was really interesting is that the music business thinks about countries in its marketing. You know, they've Europe and Asia and Australia, Canada, US. It should be cities because music is about scenes and it's going to travel that way. And so your Amsterdam strategy is going to be different from your Seoul strategy is going to be different from your São Paulo strategy. And so if there's one like broad thing, I think we're going to look at the way that music travels around the planet in a completely different way. 

[00:53:37] Dan Runcie: That's spot on. Look at the way we think about music here in the US. That should be an indication of how it should be looked at elsewhere, right? We know what Atlanta hip-hop sounds like compared to what you may hear in LA or even the New Orleans bounce sound. Like, it's so different place to place. So you look at a country like Nigeria, which is soon going to eclipse the US in population. What you may hear in Lagos would be completely different from other parts of the country. So that's a really great point. 

[00:54:05] Matt Pincus: Yeah. So that would be like, if I, you know, sort of, if I had to obsess about something, it would be that. 

[00:54:10] Dan Runcie: And I think a lot of people listening probably will too. This is a good one. I think that you got a bunch of notes for people to jot down. So Matt, thank you for making the time for this. This is fun. Thanks for coming on. 

[00:54:21] Matt Pincus: Thank you so much. I just really appreciate your thinking to me. And it's a pleasure to talk to you about all this stuff.

[00:54:27] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 3306 no How Virtual Characters Are Done Right https://www.trapital.com/podcast In less than a week, AI-powered rapper FN Meka became the first virtual rapper signed to a major label and then released by one. Capitol Records dropped the virtual act for being a complete caricature of black culture — glorifying police brutality in lyrics, dropping the n-word, and other cringey behaviors. However, FN Meka’s utter failure shouldn’t be a write off for ALL virtual characters. In fact, a prime example of how to do it right is Aku. Aku was created by Micah Johnson — a former MLB player and now a full-fledged artist, both in the virtual and real world. The kid character is a black astronaut, which was inspired by Micah’s four-year-old nephew asking his mother, “can astronauts be black?” Unlike FN Meka, Aku is a vehicle to promote what one artist wants to see in the world. A symbol or hero for a better tomorrow.  This week, I’m running back an interview I did with Micah in 2021. It was done shortly after Micah first released the character as an NFT collection, selling $2 million right off the bat. And no, this was not just a FOMO-fueled drop amid the NFT crazy. Aku has lived on since then, and only a few weeks ago, the lifestyle fashion label Paper Plans announced a snapback collab with the Aku character. This comes on top of prior partnerships with major brands like Puma and Billionaire Boys Club, plus Aku appearing on the cover of Time Magazine. Unlike FN Meka, the creation and intention behind Aku is an uplifting story. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Micah Johnson, @Micah_Johnson3   Links: Aku | Micah Johnson’s character to inspire kids to dream without limits     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Fri, 26 Aug 2022 08:00:00 -0000 How Virtual Characters Are Done Right full Dan Runcie In less than a week, AI-powered rapper FN Meka became the first virtual rapper signed to a major label and then released by one. Capitol Records dropped the virtual act for being a complete caricature of black culture — glorifying police brutality in lyrics, dropping the n-word, and other cringey behaviors. However, FN Meka’s utter failure shouldn’t be a write off for ALL virtual characters. In fact, a prime example of how to do it right is Aku. Aku was created by Micah Johnson — a former MLB player and now a full-fledged artist, both in the virtual and real world. The kid character is a black astronaut, which was inspired by Micah’s four-year-old nephew asking his mother, “can astronauts be black?” Unlike FN Meka, Aku is a vehicle to promote what one artist wants to see in the world. A symbol or hero for a better tomorrow.  This week, I’m running back an interview I did with Micah in 2021. It was done shortly after Micah first released the character as an NFT collection, selling $2 million right off the bat. And no, this was not just a FOMO-fueled drop amid the NFT crazy. Aku has lived on since then, and only a few weeks ago, the lifestyle fashion label Paper Plans announced a snapback collab with the Aku character. This comes on top of prior partnerships with major brands like Puma and Billionaire Boys Club, plus Aku appearing on the cover of Time Magazine. Unlike FN Meka, the creation and intention behind Aku is an uplifting story. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Micah Johnson, @Micah_Johnson3   Links: Aku | Micah Johnson’s character to inspire kids to dream without limits     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. In less than a week, AI-powered rapper FN Meka became the first virtual rapper signed to a major label and then released by one. Capitol Records dropped the virtual act for being a complete caricature of black culture — glorifying police brutality in lyrics, dropping the n-word, and other cringey behaviors. However, FN Meka’s utter failure shouldn’t be a write off for ALL virtual characters. In fact, a prime example of how to do it right is Aku.


Aku was created by Micah Johnson — a former MLB player and now a full-fledged artist, both in the virtual and real world. The kid character is a black astronaut, which was inspired by Micah’s four-year-old nephew asking his mother, “can astronauts be black?” Unlike FN Meka, Aku is a vehicle to promote what one artist wants to see in the world. A symbol or hero for a better tomorrow. 


This week, I’m running back an interview I did with Micah in 2021. It was done shortly after Micah first released the character as an NFT collection, selling $2 million right off the bat. And no, this was not just a FOMO-fueled drop amid the NFT crazy. Aku has lived on since then, and only a few weeks ago, the lifestyle fashion label Paper Plans announced a snapback collab with the Aku character. This comes on top of prior partnerships with major brands like Puma and Billionaire Boys Club, plus Aku appearing on the cover of Time Magazine.


Unlike FN Meka, the creation and intention behind Aku is an uplifting story.


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Micah Johnson, @Micah_Johnson3

 

Links:

 

 

Sponsors:

 

MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital

 

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.

]]> 2549 no Inside the Business of Beatmaking https://www.trapital.com/podcast Before Abe Batshon started BeatStars in 2008, a handful of superproducers had a quasi-monopoly on selling beats, charging hundreds of thousands of dollars per song. Top producers still get paid today, but the concept has become more antiquated with platforms like BeatStars democratizing beat-making. Creators can sell instrumentals — either under an exclusive license or not — to artists around the globe for a fraction of the previous cost. With $200 million paid out to creators to date, BeatStars has reset the entire economics of beats.  Abe started BeatStars without any VC funding during the Great Recession. This was also pre-steaming, when the music industry was in its dark days. Bootstrapping the company, BeatStars would redefine the music landscape along with other DIY distribution platforms such as SoundCloud and YouTube. Abe’s goal from the get-go was to break the relationship-driven nature of creating music and open opportunities for creators around the globe. Fourteen years later, it’s safe to say Abe has created more opportunities and then some. Famously, Lil Nas X bought the beat for viral sensation “Old Town Road” on BeatStars for $30. BeatStars’ producers have also been featured on songs released by Drake and Ariana Grande and ads for adidas, the NBA, and many more. BeatStars’ fingerprints are all over media, not just the independents but the majors too.  Here’s all the noteworthy moments during our conversation: [3:27] Recognizing BeatStars instrumentals online  [6:18] Starting BeatStars amid 2008 music landscape [7:28] Receiving pushback when BeatStars began [10:02] What finally changed for producers [12:20] Resetting economics of beats [16:25] Typical earnings for BeatStars creators [20:36] Music syncs in mainstream media [23:44] BeatStars growth trajectory [28:20] More competitors in the marketplace  [31:22] VC money’s impact in the music industry  [36:03] BeatStars cap table [39:30] Roadmap for the future Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Abe Batshon, @AbeBatshon     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Abe Batshon: for us, it's never been about the money. It's always been about these young people all over the world and old people, creators from everywhere. Like, can we liberate the idea of songs? Can we help push people to be more experimental with their words and their messages and their art and something that's so personal for them. I don't see any of these like venture-backed companies or big invested-type of companies actually having a genuine approach to how they treat or deal with their community. So I'm really not worried about it. I definitely keep them in mind in terms of continuing our fight to liberate music.  [00:00:57] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is a topic I've been wanting to dive into for a minute and this is about the business of buying and selling beats. It's a fascinating marketplace that has shifted considerably over the past few decades. So I wanted to bring on an expert himself to chat about it. Abe Batshon, who is the founder and CEO of BeatStars, which is a marketplace for buying and selling beats. He joined me on this topic, and we took a trip down memory lane. We went back to the 2000s, we talked about what it was like. You remember when Timbaland was bragging about getting half a mill for his beats and Neptunes had 40% of the songs on the radio? As great as it was for them, there really wasn't a lot for the other producers and other people that were trying to come up, so BeatStars came up in this post-YouTube era to make it possible for having this marketplace. And Abe talks about what it was like back then and just given some of the challenges that existed with the music industry, searching for its own business model at the dark days of piracy and trying to navigate that. But then also with the early days of the streaming era and how that has lifted his business. In the past two years, BeatStars has made more money than it made in the past 12 years before that, and it's on track to have another one of its biggest years yet now. So we talk about what that journey's been like, what led to that, and how this marketplace and how this business has evolved. When Abe was starting this, people laughed at him because they thought it was crazy what he was trying to do. Today, there are plenty of investors with bigger pockets that are trying to come in and eat his lunch. So we talked about what that looks like and why he still thinks that BeatStars is well positioned there. We also talk more broadly about the amount of VC money that's come into music tech, and how he looks at that, and what it looks like for other opportunities. If you're as fascinated about this topic as I am, you'll love this conversation. Abe kept it real and it was great to talk to him. Here's our chat. [00:02:55] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have Abe Batshon who is the CEO and founder of BeatStars. One of the premier places to buy and sell beats and wanted to have him on so we could have a conversation about this entire process, this landscape, and right before we recorded, Abe, you were just telling me about how you were listening to a different podcast. And you could hear when you hear that BeatStars beats on a podcast, Trapital podcast, of course, mine came from there. How do you know that the beat for sure came from BeatStars as opposed to somewhere else?  [00:03:27] Abe Batshon: Well, yeah, I'm a dude. I listen to so much music on the platform. Like, I process everything so much and I kind of, I don't know if it's photographic memory in terms of when you hear something, I just retain that information around that piece of music forever. Like, I know when I've heard something. Yeah, so, yes, I'll randomly, like, you know, turn on the TV or turn on the radio or turn on, you know, TikTok or turn on SoundCloud or turn on anywhere. And I'm like, holy shit. Or Spotify, you know? And I'm listening to, like, some of the trending viral songs or the top Billboard songs. I'm like, yeah, I know those beats. I know those beats. I've heard those before. Yeah.  [00:04:04] Dan Runcie: Do you feel like there's a distinct brand or sound that has BeatStars sound that you can pick up on almost in the same way that well-known and established producer has that sound like you could hear a track and be like, oh, that's a Neptunes track even if I'd never heard it before, do you feel like that's the case for a BeatStars beats?  [00:04:21] Abe Batshon: Good question. You know, maybe eight years ago, nine years ago, yeah, I could have, you know, been like, okay, that's definitely an influence from the marketplace, from the sound, from the platform, but today with the amount of variety and just so many different genres, and sub-genres and styles of music that's getting uploaded to BeatStars, it's impossible to just define it to one, sound anymore, but maybe 10 years ago, for sure. Yeah, not now, not now.  [00:04:49] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That makes sense from the timeframe perspective 'cause I could imagine, especially in the early days, there are artists you have that are likely championing the service. And if they're bringing on others that want to have that artist-type beat there, then there's going to be a lot of that similarity. But over time, especially with where you are now, over 200 million paid out to artists on this platform that just speaks to the reach that you have and everything that you've been able to do from it.  [00:05:16] Abe Batshon: Yeah, man. so fulfilling, so fulfilling to just like know that's the kind of impact the technology and platform is making for, you know, for creators' lives. I'm definitely not satisfied with that number at all. But it's a great, great motivational indicator for me to keep going for the team, to keep pushing. But, you know, our aspirations are a lot bigger than that for sure.  [00:05:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Let's actually go back a bit because I think that could be a way to have the arc of where this is going. Of course, you started this company in 2008, but in the 2000s, it was such a different landscape for producers, beat makers. And I look at that era as being quite top-heavy, right? If you were one of the super producers. If you were Timbaland, if you were Pharrell, if you were Kanye, then you almost had a, you know, quasi-monopoly in a particular area of just what you could charge, what you could do. But for everyone else that wasn't a superstar, it was a much more challenging landscape, I could assume. Can you speak to what it was like that time frame?  [00:06:18] Abe Batshon: Oh, so challenging then. So challenging, you know, I was working at INgrooves prior to me starting up BeatStars and, you know, I'd work with a bunch of artists, and labels and I'd get to know, like, the producers behind some of the work that's being released. And even for those top-heavy guys that I was talking to, they started definitely feeling a shift in how operationally the record labels were approaching licensing of beats and the development of an artist. You know, I think I just saw a recent article. I forget which publication, oh, maybe Billboard just the other day about how everyone's a distributor now. All the majors are just, you know, they're distributors. Each one of their kind of like sub-companies under the parent companies are all, you know, competing with each other, actually as distribution companies, and it's creating like a healthy competition of distribution. And so, you know, that wasn't the case back then, man. You know, back in the day, like, the major record labels weren't operating from a DIY, you know, distribution mindset of like mass distribution, mass releases of content. That wasn't the mindset. So, yeah, it was a much more controlled environment with which producers actually were contributing to, you know, these songs or these albums that were, you know, the majority of what we were listening to back in 2008. And I think you know, what changed at all was, was the emergence of probably YouTube, right? The emergence of YouTube, and SoundCloud, and, you know, and BeatStars, right? And the accessibility and the ability to now reach a broader and global audience of collaborators and music creators. And we were kind of laughed at. We were kind of laughed at in the beginning, you know, everything different that goes against a grain, that goes against a traditional way of how things are done, there's always going to be some resistance to that model or any resistance to those ideas. And it used to bother me back in the day and I used to get some of these super producers, you know, some of them would send me like dirty messages, like you're fucking up the game. You're saturating, you're devaluing our art. And I didn't see it that way. You know, I didn't see it that way. I was seeing it as a new opportunity to create more and broader reach of intellectual property for the independent creator that can actually sustain themselves in a world where it's controlled by a few different organizations, you know.  [00:08:36] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Thinking about those artists themselves. I'm thinking back to that time, there was that stat, maybe it was in 2002 or 2003, where they said that 43% of the songs on the radio were Neptune songs. And I think you could have said the same about Timbaland. You could have said the same about Max Martin or any of these people that are just on the radio so much, but you come in with this platform that very much speaks to where we were in the music industry and where things were with technology with hip-hop specifically. This is the blog era, it's really starting to pick up. You're starting to see more of that DIY distribution from the artist side. SoundCloud was just launched and even Spotify was still in the early days, but streaming still didn't take off the way it did. And I can imagine that some of the pushback or some of their response you got was from people feeling that you were likely ahead of the curve, and because of that, there were still several years before things really took off in streaming. So it was probably interesting just to see the landscape evolve. And then as you had success, you saw other competitors come in and other folks see the landscape and you're like, well, you know, I've been trying to tell you all, this is what the vision has been since the 2000s. But back then, the industry was just in such a place of people were still trying to push CDs. Like people were still trying to fight piracy. And like, when you think about that, I'm not surprised at all that you had faced some of that pushback you did.  [00:10:02] Abe Batshon: Yeah. I'm trying to kind of go back to those days in hip-hop, you know, everyone was the plug for certain things. Everyone was the plug for certain things. And you had to go through this person or this company in order to achieve some of the, like, artistry goals that you have as an artist, you know? And there was a determined route that you had to go, you know. There was a determined route that you had to go and you had to go through certain gatekeepers in order to, you know, achieve success. And it just bothered me from a human level. You know, it bothered me from a human level that we're not allowed to experiment and develop art, you know. Closed environments, the outcome of those. Like you said, how many more Neptunes hits can we have continued to listen to? Nothing against the Neptunes, I fucking love those guys, right? They're amazing, they're geniuses. But even them, they would tell you that, yeah, that kind of monopoly was probably unhealthy for music, for artists all over the world. You know, I'm sure they will tell you that that opportunity was, you know, scarce, you know, opportunity was scarce. And yeah, it was relationship-driven industry, you know, so it was a different time, different time. And I think my goal was to just completely break it. [00:11:16] Dan Runcie: Thinking about that time too. You had the people that were the top producers at those times, and they could charge handover fist for a beat. I mean, there's the line where, you know, Timbaland's like, I'm getting half a mill for a beat. And if I'm thinking about just from the competitive dynamic, what happened there, you did have this very top-heavy landscape. And in some ways they're telling you, Hey, you know, you're fucking up our money. And in some ways you are, but not necessarily in a bad way because you're letting everyone else that couldn't eat at all at least get something, right? So when you now introduce this marketplace and no, you don't necessarily have to pay half a million for a Timbaland beat to get on the radio. You could pay under a thousand dollars, a few hundred dollars to have one of the biggest songs of the summer on your music, and being able to do that lifts it up for everyone else. So I think whether it's your Timbaland's or your Mike Will, other folks could still get, you know, six figures or a lot of money, but I don't know if they're getting that 2006 or those 2003 checks that they were for the type of beats they did. [00:12:20] Abe Batshon: But, Dan, superstars are superstars in terms of creation, right, in terms of music production. Even on BeatStars, right, even on BeatStars, maybe, yeah, there's some producers on a platform that don't have that type of name recognition in a game of only a handful of producers. It's kind of different now to gain that kind of name recognition, but there are superstars on BeatStars. There are superstars that are generating half a million dollars in cumulative earnings in licensing revenue from one beat on BeatStars. So those days of like earning hundreds of thousands of dollars on one track is still happening on the platform. It's just happening in a different model. It's happening in a non-exclusive model where thousands of recording artists are, you know, licensing that same production and have the rights to create another master version of that production. But at the end of the day, that producer generated hundreds of thousands of dollars just from that one piece of content that lives as a catalog item in their store. Yeah. And I'm hearing like huge songs now on the radio that those beats are still available, non-exclusively on the platform, they're still available. So producers are becoming less and less willing to let go of their intellectual property exclusively because there's just so much backend earnings and recurring revenue, business building and, you know, forecasting of earnings for themselves, that it doesn't make sense now for them to kind of give up the rights to just one rights holder anymore. So now it's super competitive and it's gotten to a point where I think competition is healthy in song making like, Hey, here's the beat, $20. By the way, some of these beats, a lot of these beats that live on BeatStars, if they existed back in those 2000s, when it was the heyday of license revenue of 200,000 a beat or 500,000 a beat from Timbaland. Like, these beats are competing with those beats or even beyond them, right, 'cause these kids are pumping out content like crazy, right? They're bending this software in terms of DAW, the accessibility to digital VSTs, and effects, and processing, and sound libraries and, like, their ability to, like, craft, you know, sonically, like, amazing, amazing records that penetrate every market around the world. Like, it's much easier now. Back then it was harder. But, yeah, I think the earnings potential is still there on BeatStars. You know, I think it's still there. It still exists and that's why we're still seeing producers that have had tons of success, you know, licensing to major recording artists still maintaining and developing and building their online presence on BeatStars. Like, it's still a major income stream from them to the point where they can't neglect it. And they can't completely immerse themselves in the traditional way of like, you know, music licensing within the industry. It's cool to see. It's cool to see a balance. You got to have both. You got to have both today.  [00:15:07] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. And I'm glad you brought that point up 'cause that's an important distinction 'cause, of course, we're talking before about the upfront money that the super producers were getting in the 2000s, but people were rarely talking about the totality of it, and what it looks like. And that's what you're talking about here and being able to measure it in totality makes so much more sense because, with the way it currently is now, with an artist releases something on BeatStars, there's so many ways that they can generate money from that, whether that's, especially if it's non-exclusive, as you mentioned, people can pay for it directly. Anyone that is then using that beat, you could earn revenue directly, you know, from anything that's there, depending on the arrangement. But then I think you have this additional benefit where people, especially with TikTok and all these other platforms, they want to be able to remix and make their own versions of songs and being able to do that and how that can compound on each other. That's what makes the platforms like this successful. And maybe it would be helpful to hear you mentioned that, you know, there are superstars on the platform that are making and exceeding a lot of those, you know, revenue totals that we had seen before. What does a typical breakdown of that look like in terms of how much of that comes from upfront sales of people purchasing versus how much of it is the recurring and maybe ballpark? We don't need anything too exact, but maybe to give an idea.  [00:16:25] Abe Batshon: Yeah. So I guess we can only attribute the upfront micro licensing revenue on BeatStars, right? That $200 million, that micro licensing. But if we wanted to get very, very technical, we can talk about the earnings that were actually, you know, generated from those, you know, derivative works, those songs that were made from those beats. And if you calculate the earnings from the millions of songs that are created on the platform every year that get distributed to DSPs and DIY distributors, you're talking probably billions of dollars of earnings, music copyright earnings from, all of these non-exclusive licenses, cumulatively. So I wish there was a way to calculate all that, but it's hard to like quantify that. But I think today, from a platform earnings potential on BeatStars. I think the average seller producer on the platform generates over a thousand dollars a year, you know, which, Hey, a thousand bucks is, you know, not the craziest amount, but if you compare that to the average earnings of artists on these DSPs or some of these, some of these other ways of earning revenue from music. I don't want to poke too many holes at platforms that are, you know, kind of not building their businesses and products with the music creators in mind. I wish they would. I wish they would, but we're not going to get too deep into that. But I think I'm proud.  [00:17:53] Dan Runcie: I was going to say there's somewhat listening right now that is backing into the math of how many streams does it take to get a thousand dollars a year? [00:18:01] Abe Batshon: Right. Exactly. Yeah, I think if we were to calculate the stream versus earning ratio on BeatStars, yeah, our million streams are definitely generating a shit ton more, shit-ton more than what you would earn, you know. But again, it's a different concept, different way of consumption. Things are happening differently than compared to, you know, the more bigger consumer products that are out there, which, you know, we're going to keep up with them at some point though, I think, and that's one of our goals is to build a more consumer-friendly product that actually is not just niche to artists and music producers. So we're excited about what the future of what we can do for our creators, yeah.  [00:18:41] Dan Runcie: Can we talk a little bit more about that? What would that consumer side look like? 'Cause I think as you mentioned, a lot of the creators themselves are the ones that are using the platform, getting the most out of it, but what would the more creator side focus look like? [00:18:56] Abe Batshon: Like a more creator-focused platform that evolves, what the evolution of what BeatStars could be? Yeah, I mean, you know, we are already starting to do it. We're already starting to do it in terms of adding publishing administration, global publishing administration, and partnership with Sony Music Publishing and giving our creators the ability to go and collect on, you know, all their royalties worldwide. I think is a big one from all of these copyrights that are made on the platform that they still have ownership and rights to. You know, we don't take ownership of anything on the platform. Our creators right now keep a hundred percent of all their sales on the platform. They maintain all of their ownership. They dictate and decide what their license terms look like. We're just a technology layer just facilitating this collaboration. And I think, we'll definitely get into a lot more, a lot more businesses that are complimentary to music licensing. So we do allow our creators to sell sound kits and samples as well, too. And I think we're, you know, we're going to build a more sophisticated product around that. Major companies are already licensing for syncs already off of the platform indirectly, even though that's kind of not the primary function on the platform. That's something that, you know, we're exploring and, and going to expand on as well 'cause just another revenue stream opportunity, you know. [00:20:12] Dan Runcie: I was going to ask you about syncs next because I feel like that is so current and top of mind, especially the explosion of video streaming right now in all those projects. And so many people see the benefit of having a good sync. And I think we're having these conversations before, but ever since the Kate Bush song on Stranger Things, those conversations have happened so many more times, more frequently than I've at least heard before then. [00:20:36] Abe Batshon: For sure. For sure. Yeah. We used to have a, man, like eight years ago, we did have a sync license and I don't know why we took it away. We just kind of wanted to laser focus on just the non-exclusive licensing of artists and producers. But yeah, we're already seeing our music and Netflix documentaries. We're already seeing our music, you know, synced on movies, TV shows, independent, films, commercials for Adidas and Madden video games. We're seeing our content already being used in that way. You know, it makes sense to develop a product that's, you know, tailored for that community for sure.  [00:21:06] Dan Runcie: Has any of the explosion of music rights buying and selling, has any of that changed and shaped your business in any way? Because I know that there are super producers themselves that have sold theirs, whether Tableland or Darkchild having done deals themselves. Has any of that shifted anything or have you seen any result of that in your business or any of the transactions that are being made there?  [00:21:31] Abe Batshon: Yeah, so I'm not too aware of too many producers on the platform that have kind of sold their rights away or anything like that. It hasn't happened on the platform, but I'm sure, I'm sure there's been, you know, those investor, kind of like investor copyright types that are out there acquiring rights of music, whether it's, you know, from the producer's side of things. But I'm sure they get approached all the time. I just, I don't know of any, like, specific creator producer on the platform that's done it yet. But I'm sure, like, a lot of people are having those conversations with them for sure.  [00:22:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, 'cause I know the artists' side, artists get reached out to all the time now about this whether it's from the main investment firms that we know, or even some that in my experience don't really do much in music, but have reached out because they'll reach out to me to see if I can reach out to these artists, right? And I got to imagine that in some ways, not only are they looking for the artists themselves, they're looking okay, where are these artists? Where are the catalogs that they own? So it's fascinating to see, I assume that it's likely a conversation that, especially given the way your business is, I know you said that a thousand dollars is the average payout annually that artists or that the beat makers and producers get on the platform, but I'm sure that it is quite top-heavy itself where, you know, there are the few that are just bringing in so much, and I'm sure that they're probably hearing some of those conversations every now and then.  [00:22:54] Abe Batshon: For sure. For sure. Yeah. I'm sure it's happening a hundred percent.  [00:22:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah. One of the things that I had seen, especially with BeatStars, we talked about how growth you've had recently, and, I believe this was at July 2020, you had $85 million in payouts that you had done to beat makers specifically at that point since you had launched a platform in 2008, and then you had recently announced a few months back here now in 2022, that you had had $200 million. So quite a big jump, it’s almost double in less than a two-year span. One, it would be great to hear what that was like and also, what are the steps that happened or what are the things that you all had done that helped you, you know, double everything that you had done the past decade-plus in the past two years? [00:23:44] Abe Batshon: Yeah. I mean, our growth trajectory, even the years prior were a hundred percent year over year as well, too. So we were already kind of pre-pandemic move, like, that was our growth trajectory prior as well. It just took us a long time. It just took us a long time. We did it the slow and steady way. And the last two years, I would say, for sure the pandemic put a priority, yeah, I guess I guess people started questioning their existence, man. You know, like we started questioning our existence and we're like, am I not going to explore my art, you know? Like, I know I was doing it. I was making more music during the pandemic. And I would, you know, meet a lot of our creators and I and I would hear their stories and like, I started singing during the pandemic, or I started making beats more seriously, I'm home and I needed an outlet to kind of license and sell them. And so I think the pandemic definitely kind of accelerated the priority or like top of mind of creators to take it more seriously or to kind of, you know, explore more serious options for monetizing their music. So it's been a blessing to kind of see the platform and marketplace grow globally all over the world, and yeah, the marketplace is still booming and still going crazy. And I think, you know, we'll achieve over 70 million this year for sure. That's kind of our projection, could be more. So yeah, the licensing activity is continuing to go great. I'm excited. I'm excited about the future, man. [00:25:06] Dan Runcie: That's good to hear because I am not surprised to hear the growth in the pandemic. I think there's so many things we can look back on the past two and a half years where especially something like this, where the art of doing it is something that people could do at home. So many people that are creating products, or creating services, or music, or medium putting out into the world, so much of that picked up and there was so much that was successful. And I think we saw that with the way the stocks went and the way everything was. So you had this run from March 2020 pretty much up until let's say November 2021, when everything was booming, right? The past six months, we saw certain things come back down to earth a bit. And I think there were a lot of the pandemic stocks and a lot of the companies, even the ones in the music industry that had had sky-high valuations, coming back down to earth a little bit, but at least for you all, I'm getting the impression that that hasn't necessarily impacted you from that perspective, given I think you have a different business model than a lot of the companies that had, you know, challenges there, but how the past three to six months been specifically? [00:26:10] Abe Batshon: Yeah, I think our growth has kind of leveled off a little bit. We're kind of, you know, I guess, the normalization of things are happening for sure. And we're having to work harder to like retain our subscribers and users. It's just shifting our approach and adjusting and pivoting to more accessible business models for this time and this moment in our history. I mean, it's for sure a recession. It's happening globally. It's impacting a lot of people's lives and we need to make sure that we kind of still factor that in mind and create products that are are still useful and accessible and functional for anyone with any economic status that they're in, you know, because it breaks my soul if someone can't afford a BeatStars subscription and can't explore their art and can't develop themselves and meet those goals because of this current space that we're in right now. So we're definitely pivoting and adjusting and thinking about new and better accessible business models that can cater to anyone with any kind of economic status. So, we're definitely adjusting things though.  [00:27:11] Dan Runcie: I could imagine. I do think though that these things aren't permanent and, of course, we'll see things pick up, again it's just a matter of the timing there specifically. I do feel like for you all, it's interesting because the future of where this all is heading right now, you, as you mentioned, I think that you were a bit ahead of the curve. So, you know, growth in the early days may not have been as fast, but now we're in this place where people saw the success you have, people see the potential of where things going and now more companies are starting to launch their own beat marketplaces and ones that we're establishing other places. Have you seen that impact, what you've seen in your businesses? Because I know that, at least from other people I talked to that are in streaming of the DSPs, they've talked about how we've switched from this herbivore market where everyone's just capturing people that are generally wanting subscriptions to now they're in this carnivore mode of competing with each other. Have you seen any of that where you feel like the people who are beat makers now, it's not so much capturing new ones. It's essentially positioning yourselves from the competitors who have come after you.  [00:28:20] Abe Batshon: Yeah, I'm definitely, you know, definitely aware of the competitors, and a lot of these guys were admirers of what we've done. And you know, I know them personally. It's flattering, you know. It's flattering to see in terms of people being inspired by the things that I create and build and what we do here as a company as well too. And it's part of being in a capitalistic society that we're in, you know. Monkey see monkey do, you know. I feel like it's increased our kind of our competitive spirits here at the company to want to be more innovative. I think it's a blessing that there's other folks trying to come into our space. For me, I've been doing this for almost 15 years, right? So it's, I need a kick in the ass in terms of where I want to go in my career and the aspirations where I want to see BeatStars. I mean, we've always been driven and always been the hardest working and most caring community that you'll ever see in terms of the music producers. But yeah, I just use it as a competitive chip to keep moving and pushing and pushing for our creators to provide even more fair and useful products for them. I haven't seen a shift in like our business or anything like that because of the competitors, you know. It may take a while for that to happen. If they do something super unique or whatever it is that they're doing, but I haven't seen anything that's like, exciting from an innovation standpoint. It's just monkey see monkey do, copycats.  [00:29:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That was going to be my next question, you see, if are there new things that you're seeing the competitors do that make you say, oh, that's interesting, right? 'Cause that would definitely validate the ass-kicking or the bit of the push there. It reminds you of that sports analogy, right? Like how. Michael Jordan had to go create these demons out of thin air because there was really no one at this level, and anytime someone tried to say, oh, Jordan or Drexler, he just like squash it that immediately. So you all having that, yeah.  [00:30:04] Abe Batshon: I've always had that. You know, I'm a sports guy, huge sports guy, played sports my whole life, too. And so I definitely was competing with myself in terms of wanting to be better and extract more capacity of myself and see myself and my team's dreams continue to grow. But yeah, I just use those as just another factor into, and I'm not to say anyone's intentions are bad or anyone's intentions are good, but it's a little suspect. It's a little suspect. It's a little bit, I don't know, what's the word, but it feels ingenuine. It feels like a land grab. It feels like a money game. And for us, it's never been about the money. It's always been about these young people all over the world and old people, creators from everywhere. Like, can we liberate the idea of songs? Can we help push people to be more experimental with their words and their messages and their art and something that's so personal for them. I don't see any of these like venture- companies or big invested type of companies actually having a genuine approach to how they treat or deal with their community. So I'm really not worried about it. I definitely keep them in mind in terms of continuing our fight to liberate music. [00:31:13] Dan Runcie: How do you feel in general about the amount of VC money that has entered music and music tech and the platforms and companies that have been launched?  [00:31:22] Abe Batshon: Dude, where was this money when I was in, like, Silicon Valley? You know, I mean, I'm from the East Bay, Hayward, California. And you know, Silicon Valley was just right down the street. And when I was building BeatStars, man, I couldn't even get a meeting with these guys. Like, I created 12 of the most amazing decks throughout my career that no one ever actually saw. Like, I couldn't sell anyone on the concept of investing into music. But like I understand that at that time, the music industry was going through a huge transitional moment. Like, everyone was really scared about the future of music. So it was pretty disastrous in terms of where music was at that time, and if I wasn't an investor, I probably wouldn't have invested in me either. But I never even got an opportunity to even you know, meet investors or pitch the ideas of BeatStars. We had to bootstrap this thing the whole way. And our creators invested in us, our customers did, we built this thing together with them. We just continue to reinvest every little penny that we made back into the platform. And so I think it made the journey a lot more satisfying, but it's exciting that there's much more investment and people willing to believe and other entrepreneurs and their ideas. I think it's cool. It pushes all of us, you know, pushes our creative boundaries and it's cool to see money flow. And I I'm happy that, you know, other entrepreneurs are not going to have to struggle the way that I did for 13, 14 years before I was, you know, able to kind of like sustain ourselves. So it's like, but you know, we kind of always figured out ways to sustain ourselves build organically, which has been beautiful. And we've been profitable since day one and we just continue to run lean, you know, and just not be wasteful and just, yeah. So it's exciting. I don't know where it's going to go. I mean, I don't know where a lot of the money is actually flowing in music tech, really. You probably know more than me, Dan. I don't pay attention to a lot of that stuff.  [00:33:06] Dan Runcie: You're too busy building to track this stuff.  [00:33:08] Abe Batshon: I'm busy, man.  [00:33:09] Dan Runcie: That's my job.  [00:33:11] Abe Batshon: Busy, dude, too busy.  [00:33:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah. With that though, do you get more interest or offers from any of these tech companies now, because I've started to hear from a lot of the companies that rose up the same timeframe that you did that. Now, when all this money pours in, now they're getting the attention, too, and the interest, too, from these investors that wouldn't have paid attention before, but now it's much less about the initial investment. Now they're trying to either acquire and now they're trying to do a joint venture, do these things. What have those conversations been like?  [00:33:48] Abe Batshon: It's definitely getting aggressive for sure. And I think because of where we are right now, economically, you know, investors feel like they can come in and get a good deal right now for all these startups or companies that have existed even prior to the pandemic that are still thriving through it as well. I'm seeing a lot of acquisitions happen, a lot of private equity stuff happening. And it's interesting. It's interesting. We don't need the money, Dan, in terms of like where we are financially. We're, you know, we're self sustaining. We've got a ton of money in the bank and we have our investment plan internally to kind of finish our, you know, not finish, but continue our roadmap of all the things that we dream of wanting to do and build within our goals at BeatStars. So, thank God I'm healthy. I'm feeling good. I'm in remission. I I battled cancer the last couple years during the pandemic. And you know, that was a shaky moment for me during that time. It was really up and down. I didn't know where my future was and still kind of in it, but I'm thankfully feeling really well and just energized and I'm enjoying independence, I'm enjoying independence. And I really feel that we're in a good spot to kind of push through this kind of down moment of the economy and head down and focus on our creators while everyone is just focusing on profit and revenue. And we're going to do the opposite and just build something that's going to be a utility for people for many years to come, hopefully.  [00:35:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely, I mean.  [00:35:08] Abe Batshon: They're coming though. They're throwing checks. They're, you know, they're throwing checks at us. They're making offers, but, yeah, we're just not ready right now. We're just not ready.  [00:35:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And like you said, you have the vision for this and the amount that you've poured into it, the amount that you've gone through, as you mentioned, especially in recent years, like all that comes through with the story, and I think that is what connects with both the artists and what connects with anyone that may be interested from a business perspective. And I think you do have the control, the autonomy to make those shots when you want to, and that's the power of bootstrapping, right? We all know the trade-offs where, yeah, it can take time as you very well know. But if you're able to get through the other side, the autonomy you have. You could make decisions like you don't have to have, you know, the investors reading it out of your deck or anything else are trying to wonder why you're not pumping more Facebook and Google ads to go do this or that, right? Like, you're able to do the things on your terms and to clarify, is the ownership a hundred percent you for the company or?  [00:36:03] Abe Batshon: No, it's not a hundred percent me. Some employees have ownership in the company. We did take a minor, a very small, minor investment from Sony music publishing when we did our joint venture together. They've been great partners. They've been awesome. And they've been helping us kind of strategize and scale our publishing business, which I believe in the last 16 months, we've had 26 Billboard 100 hits that are from our BeatStars publishing roster of creators. One of our producers has two songs on Beyoncé's new album. And I know we had Megan Thee Stallion's new single, Pressurelicious, with one of our producers, I believe, it was HitKidd with Future. So it's like, it's so cool to see that our business is touching so many different parts of the music business. It's not just the independent creator like we're powering songs, even for the major, major superstar artists, which is awesome to see. So yeah, I'm excited about the future, man. I think we're just getting started, Dan.  [00:36:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah. and it's always fascinating to hear how companies like yours think about the compensation and things like that for employees because with a lot of the other competitors or even others in the space, especially with the amount of money that support and people are getting, you know, equity in these companies and they are getting them because if they're VC backed, then they have an exit in the mindset and you aren't coming from that perspective. So it's always interesting to hear, okay, what are the other things you're doing? So, yeah, it sounds like you're still doing equity, I know.  [00:37:22] Abe Batshon: Oh, I forgot to mention like there's 400 creators as well. 400 creators that invested in BeatStars when we partnered with Indiegogo back in 2016 to be one of their, actually their initial kind of equity crowdfunding launch partners. And it wasn't because we needed funds or needed money at that time. We did it because I loved the fact that our creators can actually, like, buy ownership into the company, and I can like, continue serving them, man. I can continue feeling like, you know, I have to make sure I'm reporting to these people because these are the people that keep me grounded. These are the people that keep me focused on, you know, how we impact all the other creators' lives. So yeah, we have 400 other creators from the platform that invested like $150,000 total during that campaign. So it was pretty cool to know that they're also on our ownership structure. [00:38:11] Dan Runcie: That's great to see them on the cap table. That's great. I'd like to close this conversation out.  [00:38:16] Abe Batshon: Hopefully, make some money at some point.  [00:38:19] Dan Runcie: Well, I mean, that depends how some of these conversations go with these, you know, companies breathing down your back.  [00:38:23] Abe Batshon: Exactly.  [00:38:24] Dan Runcie: So we'll see. [00:38:25] Abe Batshon: For sure. [00:38:26] Dan Runcie: But I like to close this conversation out of it and talk about focus because you talked a lot about creators and how you're focused on serving them. We're talking primarily about the people who are buying beats, the people that are selling beats, and anyone involved with that production or engineering process. But for you, I know what it's like to build a company. I'm sure there's been plenty of times where not just you or some of the people you're working with are like, oh, what if you did this? What if we did that, right? But you've been able to stay focused on I'm sure, part of it was likely a function of you're building as fast as you can. Given the fact that you're bootstrapped, some of your focus is by design, but then on the other hand, now that things are starting to come in, you're starting to see the success in reaping the rewards. I'm sure there's likely some thoughts of maybe that thing that you had in the back of your mind for a few years, but now maybe it's a little bit easier to do if you're going to be, you know, hitting nine-figure payouts annually soon enough. What are some of those things, if there are, that you have on the roadmap for where things are going for other things you might be doing? [00:39:30] Abe Batshon: Yeah, we definitely want to make some acquisitions for sure. We're exploring some of that too. We're exploring some potential acquisitions, and I think maybe we'll do our first one by the beginning of 2023. Never know. So we're definitely thinking about how can we acquire some technology or companies or communities that really would help elevate what we're doing. So definitely, definitely thinking about that. We're investing a ton in technology, man. We're, I mean our engineering team, we're probably, we'll double by next year. I think we're at like 40, 40 people on the engineering team now. So we have all of these cool projects that these engineering pods are working on and it's exciting to see. So you'll definitely start seeing a lot more innovation more frequently from BeatStars soon. We have spent, and it may look like focus, but really it's been just kind of a restrain of our technology for the last four or five years. We've been rebuilding our whole tech stack, the back end, front end, the whole thing, because, you know, we were still using legacy platform from 2008 when it was just, you know, me and our founding members of the company, Joseph Aguilar, one of our engineers, you know, building it together and we're just some kids, you know, just going crazy. We didn't think that this thing was going to scale to millions and millions of creators all over the world. So we had to kind of pivot four years ago. And we're about 95% done in terms of the full platform rebuild. And from a technology standpoint, we're competing with some of the biggest music services in the world in terms of our tech stack. Now we're prepared to really do some damage now and build on top of what we're doing and optimize our offering and also get into some different verticals as well, too. So, yeah, it's kind of like a new rebirth of BeatStars in a sense, a whole new team, a whole new technology stack, a whole new drive, and purpose. And we're building out our executive team right now, too. It's been just me in terms of executives. I was wearing all the hats, and I don't know why I was doing that. And we just hired a Head of People, Sarah Simmons, who just joined us. We have our CTO, Nader Fares. We hired Damien Ritter as our President of Label.  [00:41:37] Dan Runcie: My guy, Dame.  [00:41:38] Abe Batshon: Yeah, man, Dame is legend and legend to me in terms of what he's done on the independent record label front, you know, and what he's been able to do, the dude's one of the smartest guys I know. And I'm excited to have him lead the initial kind of kickoff of what a BeatStars record label can look like. Like, so many amazing artists have been discovered on BeatStars, even just from our competitions. You know, like we discovered Ali, Ali Gatie, won one of our song contests and he's got billions of streams, you know, Joyner Lucas, and Anees. Anees is an independent artist right now that's doing some amazing things, touring, you know, he's got a hit song called Sun and Moon and just killing it on TikTok and just so cool, man, just so cool to see all of these amazing artists take and utilize the platform the best way and build careers. And, yeah, so it's cool to see all these different things happen and finally bringing some like seasoned leadership to, you know, bounce things off of and build with and collaborate with. And I think I've come to a place in my career now. I feel like almost 15 years in, I can let go of some control and I think I've matured enough as an executive to now understand and articulate what the company needs and what we want in our dreams and now do it in a collaborative way with a bunch of amazing people that have the same kind of mission. So it's exciting to see what this new phase of BeatStars goes into.  [00:42:55] Dan Runcie: Making moves. Love to hear it. [00:42:57] Abe Batshon: Trying to, man. [00:42:58] Dan Runcie: Hey, hey, that says that's the journey. That's the journey. Well, Abe, this has been great. Appreciate you for coming on, and before we let you go, we want to make sure that people that are listening know to find you, so where can they go to either follow you or to follow BeatStars if they want to tap in more?  [00:43:14] Abe Batshon: Thanks, Dan. Dude, I'm some big fan of yours, like I told you before the podcast. Congratulations. Amazing to follow your journey as well. Follow BeatStars at @BeatStars, B E A T S T A R S everywhere. My personal social media shut down everywhere for the last few months. I shut it down, but I'm going to bring it back, just @AbeBatshon and excited to hear the feedback from this episode from folks listening to it. Appreciate you having me on man.  [00:43:37] Dan Runcie: Of course, and best luck to you and best luck to you from health, most importantly, and with the business too.  [00:43:43] Abe Batshon: Thank you, sir. [00:43:45] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 19 Aug 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Inside the Business of Beatmaking full Dan Runcie Before Abe Batshon started BeatStars in 2008, a handful of superproducers had a quasi-monopoly on selling beats, charging hundreds of thousands of dollars per song. Top producers still get paid today, but the concept has become more antiquated with platforms like BeatStars democratizing beat-making. Creators can sell instrumentals — either under an exclusive license or not — to artists around the globe for a fraction of the previous cost. With $200 million paid out to creators to date, BeatStars has reset the entire economics of beats.  Abe started BeatStars without any VC funding during the Great Recession. This was also pre-steaming, when the music industry was in its dark days. Bootstrapping the company, BeatStars would redefine the music landscape along with other DIY distribution platforms such as SoundCloud and YouTube. Abe’s goal from the get-go was to break the relationship-driven nature of creating music and open opportunities for creators around the globe. Fourteen years later, it’s safe to say Abe has created more opportunities and then some. Famously, Lil Nas X bought the beat for viral sensation “Old Town Road” on BeatStars for $30. BeatStars’ producers have also been featured on songs released by Drake and Ariana Grande and ads for adidas, the NBA, and many more. BeatStars’ fingerprints are all over media, not just the independents but the majors too.  Here’s all the noteworthy moments during our conversation: [3:27] Recognizing BeatStars instrumentals online  [6:18] Starting BeatStars amid 2008 music landscape [7:28] Receiving pushback when BeatStars began [10:02] What finally changed for producers [12:20] Resetting economics of beats [16:25] Typical earnings for BeatStars creators [20:36] Music syncs in mainstream media [23:44] BeatStars growth trajectory [28:20] More competitors in the marketplace  [31:22] VC money’s impact in the music industry  [36:03] BeatStars cap table [39:30] Roadmap for the future Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Abe Batshon, @AbeBatshon     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Abe Batshon: for us, it's never been about the money. It's always been about these young people all over the world and old people, creators from everywhere. Like, can we liberate the idea of songs? Can we help push people to be more experimental with their words and their messages and their art and something that's so personal for them. I don't see any of these like venture-backed companies or big invested-type of companies actually having a genuine approach to how they treat or deal with their community. So I'm really not worried about it. I definitely keep them in mind in terms of continuing our fight to liberate music.  [00:00:57] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is a topic I've been wanting to dive into for a minute and this is about the business of buying and selling beats. It's a fascinating marketplace that has shifted considerably over the past few decades. So I wanted to bring on an expert himself to chat about it. Abe Batshon, who is the founder and CEO of BeatStars, which is a marketplace for buying and selling beats. He joined me on this topic, and we took a trip down memory lane. We went back to the 2000s, we talked about what it was like. You remember when Timbaland was bragging about getting half a mill for his beats and Neptunes had 40% of the songs on the radio? As great as it was for them, there really wasn't a lot for the other producers and other people that were trying to come up, so BeatStars came up in this post-YouTube era to make it possible for having this marketplace. And Abe talks about what it was like back then and just given some of the challenges that existed with the music industry, searching for its own business model at the dark days of piracy and trying to navigate that. But then also with the early days of the streaming era and how that has lifted his business. In the past two years, BeatStars has made more money than it made in the past 12 years before that, and it's on track to have another one of its biggest years yet now. So we talk about what that journey's been like, what led to that, and how this marketplace and how this business has evolved. When Abe was starting this, people laughed at him because they thought it was crazy what he was trying to do. Today, there are plenty of investors with bigger pockets that are trying to come in and eat his lunch. So we talked about what that looks like and why he still thinks that BeatStars is well positioned there. We also talk more broadly about the amount of VC money that's come into music tech, and how he looks at that, and what it looks like for other opportunities. If you're as fascinated about this topic as I am, you'll love this conversation. Abe kept it real and it was great to talk to him. Here's our chat. [00:02:55] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have Abe Batshon who is the CEO and founder of BeatStars. One of the premier places to buy and sell beats and wanted to have him on so we could have a conversation about this entire process, this landscape, and right before we recorded, Abe, you were just telling me about how you were listening to a different podcast. And you could hear when you hear that BeatStars beats on a podcast, Trapital podcast, of course, mine came from there. How do you know that the beat for sure came from BeatStars as opposed to somewhere else?  [00:03:27] Abe Batshon: Well, yeah, I'm a dude. I listen to so much music on the platform. Like, I process everything so much and I kind of, I don't know if it's photographic memory in terms of when you hear something, I just retain that information around that piece of music forever. Like, I know when I've heard something. Yeah, so, yes, I'll randomly, like, you know, turn on the TV or turn on the radio or turn on, you know, TikTok or turn on SoundCloud or turn on anywhere. And I'm like, holy shit. Or Spotify, you know? And I'm listening to, like, some of the trending viral songs or the top Billboard songs. I'm like, yeah, I know those beats. I know those beats. I've heard those before. Yeah.  [00:04:04] Dan Runcie: Do you feel like there's a distinct brand or sound that has BeatStars sound that you can pick up on almost in the same way that well-known and established producer has that sound like you could hear a track and be like, oh, that's a Neptunes track even if I'd never heard it before, do you feel like that's the case for a BeatStars beats?  [00:04:21] Abe Batshon: Good question. You know, maybe eight years ago, nine years ago, yeah, I could have, you know, been like, okay, that's definitely an influence from the marketplace, from the sound, from the platform, but today with the amount of variety and just so many different genres, and sub-genres and styles of music that's getting uploaded to BeatStars, it's impossible to just define it to one, sound anymore, but maybe 10 years ago, for sure. Yeah, not now, not now.  [00:04:49] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That makes sense from the timeframe perspective 'cause I could imagine, especially in the early days, there are artists you have that are likely championing the service. And if they're bringing on others that want to have that artist-type beat there, then there's going to be a lot of that similarity. But over time, especially with where you are now, over 200 million paid out to artists on this platform that just speaks to the reach that you have and everything that you've been able to do from it.  [00:05:16] Abe Batshon: Yeah, man. so fulfilling, so fulfilling to just like know that's the kind of impact the technology and platform is making for, you know, for creators' lives. I'm definitely not satisfied with that number at all. But it's a great, great motivational indicator for me to keep going for the team, to keep pushing. But, you know, our aspirations are a lot bigger than that for sure.  [00:05:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Let's actually go back a bit because I think that could be a way to have the arc of where this is going. Of course, you started this company in 2008, but in the 2000s, it was such a different landscape for producers, beat makers. And I look at that era as being quite top-heavy, right? If you were one of the super producers. If you were Timbaland, if you were Pharrell, if you were Kanye, then you almost had a, you know, quasi-monopoly in a particular area of just what you could charge, what you could do. But for everyone else that wasn't a superstar, it was a much more challenging landscape, I could assume. Can you speak to what it was like that time frame?  [00:06:18] Abe Batshon: Oh, so challenging then. So challenging, you know, I was working at INgrooves prior to me starting up BeatStars and, you know, I'd work with a bunch of artists, and labels and I'd get to know, like, the producers behind some of the work that's being released. And even for those top-heavy guys that I was talking to, they started definitely feeling a shift in how operationally the record labels were approaching licensing of beats and the development of an artist. You know, I think I just saw a recent article. I forget which publication, oh, maybe Billboard just the other day about how everyone's a distributor now. All the majors are just, you know, they're distributors. Each one of their kind of like sub-companies under the parent companies are all, you know, competing with each other, actually as distribution companies, and it's creating like a healthy competition of distribution. And so, you know, that wasn't the case back then, man. You know, back in the day, like, the major record labels weren't operating from a DIY, you know, distribution mindset of like mass distribution, mass releases of content. That wasn't the mindset. So, yeah, it was a much more controlled environment with which producers actually were contributing to, you know, these songs or these albums that were, you know, the majority of what we were listening to back in 2008. And I think you know, what changed at all was, was the emergence of probably YouTube, right? The emergence of YouTube, and SoundCloud, and, you know, and BeatStars, right? And the accessibility and the ability to now reach a broader and global audience of collaborators and music creators. And we were kind of laughed at. We were kind of laughed at in the beginning, you know, everything different that goes against a grain, that goes against a traditional way of how things are done, there's always going to be some resistance to that model or any resistance to those ideas. And it used to bother me back in the day and I used to get some of these super producers, you know, some of them would send me like dirty messages, like you're fucking up the game. You're saturating, you're devaluing our art. And I didn't see it that way. You know, I didn't see it that way. I was seeing it as a new opportunity to create more and broader reach of intellectual property for the independent creator that can actually sustain themselves in a world where it's controlled by a few different organizations, you know.  [00:08:36] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Thinking about those artists themselves. I'm thinking back to that time, there was that stat, maybe it was in 2002 or 2003, where they said that 43% of the songs on the radio were Neptune songs. And I think you could have said the same about Timbaland. You could have said the same about Max Martin or any of these people that are just on the radio so much, but you come in with this platform that very much speaks to where we were in the music industry and where things were with technology with hip-hop specifically. This is the blog era, it's really starting to pick up. You're starting to see more of that DIY distribution from the artist side. SoundCloud was just launched and even Spotify was still in the early days, but streaming still didn't take off the way it did. And I can imagine that some of the pushback or some of their response you got was from people feeling that you were likely ahead of the curve, and because of that, there were still several years before things really took off in streaming. So it was probably interesting just to see the landscape evolve. And then as you had success, you saw other competitors come in and other folks see the landscape and you're like, well, you know, I've been trying to tell you all, this is what the vision has been since the 2000s. But back then, the industry was just in such a place of people were still trying to push CDs. Like people were still trying to fight piracy. And like, when you think about that, I'm not surprised at all that you had faced some of that pushback you did.  [00:10:02] Abe Batshon: Yeah. I'm trying to kind of go back to those days in hip-hop, you know, everyone was the plug for certain things. Everyone was the plug for certain things. And you had to go through this person or this company in order to achieve some of the, like, artistry goals that you have as an artist, you know? And there was a determined route that you had to go, you know. There was a determined route that you had to go and you had to go through certain gatekeepers in order to, you know, achieve success. And it just bothered me from a human level. You know, it bothered me from a human level that we're not allowed to experiment and develop art, you know. Closed environments, the outcome of those. Like you said, how many more Neptunes hits can we have continued to listen to? Nothing against the Neptunes, I fucking love those guys, right? They're amazing, they're geniuses. But even them, they would tell you that, yeah, that kind of monopoly was probably unhealthy for music, for artists all over the world. You know, I'm sure they will tell you that that opportunity was, you know, scarce, you know, opportunity was scarce. And yeah, it was relationship-driven industry, you know, so it was a different time, different time. And I think my goal was to just completely break it. [00:11:16] Dan Runcie: Thinking about that time too. You had the people that were the top producers at those times, and they could charge handover fist for a beat. I mean, there's the line where, you know, Timbaland's like, I'm getting half a mill for a beat. And if I'm thinking about just from the competitive dynamic, what happened there, you did have this very top-heavy landscape. And in some ways they're telling you, Hey, you know, you're fucking up our money. And in some ways you are, but not necessarily in a bad way because you're letting everyone else that couldn't eat at all at least get something, right? So when you now introduce this marketplace and no, you don't necessarily have to pay half a million for a Timbaland beat to get on the radio. You could pay under a thousand dollars, a few hundred dollars to have one of the biggest songs of the summer on your music, and being able to do that lifts it up for everyone else. So I think whether it's your Timbaland's or your Mike Will, other folks could still get, you know, six figures or a lot of money, but I don't know if they're getting that 2006 or those 2003 checks that they were for the type of beats they did. [00:12:20] Abe Batshon: But, Dan, superstars are superstars in terms of creation, right, in terms of music production. Even on BeatStars, right, even on BeatStars, maybe, yeah, there's some producers on a platform that don't have that type of name recognition in a game of only a handful of producers. It's kind of different now to gain that kind of name recognition, but there are superstars on BeatStars. There are superstars that are generating half a million dollars in cumulative earnings in licensing revenue from one beat on BeatStars. So those days of like earning hundreds of thousands of dollars on one track is still happening on the platform. It's just happening in a different model. It's happening in a non-exclusive model where thousands of recording artists are, you know, licensing that same production and have the rights to create another master version of that production. But at the end of the day, that producer generated hundreds of thousands of dollars just from that one piece of content that lives as a catalog item in their store. Yeah. And I'm hearing like huge songs now on the radio that those beats are still available, non-exclusively on the platform, they're still available. So producers are becoming less and less willing to let go of their intellectual property exclusively because there's just so much backend earnings and recurring revenue, business building and, you know, forecasting of earnings for themselves, that it doesn't make sense now for them to kind of give up the rights to just one rights holder anymore. So now it's super competitive and it's gotten to a point where I think competition is healthy in song making like, Hey, here's the beat, $20. By the way, some of these beats, a lot of these beats that live on BeatStars, if they existed back in those 2000s, when it was the heyday of license revenue of 200,000 a beat or 500,000 a beat from Timbaland. Like, these beats are competing with those beats or even beyond them, right, 'cause these kids are pumping out content like crazy, right? They're bending this software in terms of DAW, the accessibility to digital VSTs, and effects, and processing, and sound libraries and, like, their ability to, like, craft, you know, sonically, like, amazing, amazing records that penetrate every market around the world. Like, it's much easier now. Back then it was harder. But, yeah, I think the earnings potential is still there on BeatStars. You know, I think it's still there. It still exists and that's why we're still seeing producers that have had tons of success, you know, licensing to major recording artists still maintaining and developing and building their online presence on BeatStars. Like, it's still a major income stream from them to the point where they can't neglect it. And they can't completely immerse themselves in the traditional way of like, you know, music licensing within the industry. It's cool to see. It's cool to see a balance. You got to have both. You got to have both today.  [00:15:07] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. And I'm glad you brought that point up 'cause that's an important distinction 'cause, of course, we're talking before about the upfront money that the super producers were getting in the 2000s, but people were rarely talking about the totality of it, and what it looks like. And that's what you're talking about here and being able to measure it in totality makes so much more sense because, with the way it currently is now, with an artist releases something on BeatStars, there's so many ways that they can generate money from that, whether that's, especially if it's non-exclusive, as you mentioned, people can pay for it directly. Anyone that is then using that beat, you could earn revenue directly, you know, from anything that's there, depending on the arrangement. But then I think you have this additional benefit where people, especially with TikTok and all these other platforms, they want to be able to remix and make their own versions of songs and being able to do that and how that can compound on each other. That's what makes the platforms like this successful. And maybe it would be helpful to hear you mentioned that, you know, there are superstars on the platform that are making and exceeding a lot of those, you know, revenue totals that we had seen before. What does a typical breakdown of that look like in terms of how much of that comes from upfront sales of people purchasing versus how much of it is the recurring and maybe ballpark? We don't need anything too exact, but maybe to give an idea.  [00:16:25] Abe Batshon: Yeah. So I guess we can only attribute the upfront micro licensing revenue on BeatStars, right? That $200 million, that micro licensing. But if we wanted to get very, very technical, we can talk about the earnings that were actually, you know, generated from those, you know, derivative works, those songs that were made from those beats. And if you calculate the earnings from the millions of songs that are created on the platform every year that get distributed to DSPs and DIY distributors, you're talking probably billions of dollars of earnings, music copyright earnings from, all of these non-exclusive licenses, cumulatively. So I wish there was a way to calculate all that, but it's hard to like quantify that. But I think today, from a platform earnings potential on BeatStars. I think the average seller producer on the platform generates over a thousand dollars a year, you know, which, Hey, a thousand bucks is, you know, not the craziest amount, but if you compare that to the average earnings of artists on these DSPs or some of these, some of these other ways of earning revenue from music. I don't want to poke too many holes at platforms that are, you know, kind of not building their businesses and products with the music creators in mind. I wish they would. I wish they would, but we're not going to get too deep into that. But I think I'm proud.  [00:17:53] Dan Runcie: I was going to say there's somewhat listening right now that is backing into the math of how many streams does it take to get a thousand dollars a year? [00:18:01] Abe Batshon: Right. Exactly. Yeah, I think if we were to calculate the stream versus earning ratio on BeatStars, yeah, our million streams are definitely generating a shit ton more, shit-ton more than what you would earn, you know. But again, it's a different concept, different way of consumption. Things are happening differently than compared to, you know, the more bigger consumer products that are out there, which, you know, we're going to keep up with them at some point though, I think, and that's one of our goals is to build a more consumer-friendly product that actually is not just niche to artists and music producers. So we're excited about what the future of what we can do for our creators, yeah.  [00:18:41] Dan Runcie: Can we talk a little bit more about that? What would that consumer side look like? 'Cause I think as you mentioned, a lot of the creators themselves are the ones that are using the platform, getting the most out of it, but what would the more creator side focus look like? [00:18:56] Abe Batshon: Like a more creator-focused platform that evolves, what the evolution of what BeatStars could be? Yeah, I mean, you know, we are already starting to do it. We're already starting to do it in terms of adding publishing administration, global publishing administration, and partnership with Sony Music Publishing and giving our creators the ability to go and collect on, you know, all their royalties worldwide. I think is a big one from all of these copyrights that are made on the platform that they still have ownership and rights to. You know, we don't take ownership of anything on the platform. Our creators right now keep a hundred percent of all their sales on the platform. They maintain all of their ownership. They dictate and decide what their license terms look like. We're just a technology layer just facilitating this collaboration. And I think, we'll definitely get into a lot more, a lot more businesses that are complimentary to music licensing. So we do allow our creators to sell sound kits and samples as well, too. And I think we're, you know, we're going to build a more sophisticated product around that. Major companies are already licensing for syncs already off of the platform indirectly, even though that's kind of not the primary function on the platform. That's something that, you know, we're exploring and, and going to expand on as well 'cause just another revenue stream opportunity, you know. [00:20:12] Dan Runcie: I was going to ask you about syncs next because I feel like that is so current and top of mind, especially the explosion of video streaming right now in all those projects. And so many people see the benefit of having a good sync. And I think we're having these conversations before, but ever since the Kate Bush song on Stranger Things, those conversations have happened so many more times, more frequently than I've at least heard before then. [00:20:36] Abe Batshon: For sure. For sure. Yeah. We used to have a, man, like eight years ago, we did have a sync license and I don't know why we took it away. We just kind of wanted to laser focus on just the non-exclusive licensing of artists and producers. But yeah, we're already seeing our music and Netflix documentaries. We're already seeing our music, you know, synced on movies, TV shows, independent, films, commercials for Adidas and Madden video games. We're seeing our content already being used in that way. You know, it makes sense to develop a product that's, you know, tailored for that community for sure.  [00:21:06] Dan Runcie: Has any of the explosion of music rights buying and selling, has any of that changed and shaped your business in any way? Because I know that there are super producers themselves that have sold theirs, whether Tableland or Darkchild having done deals themselves. Has any of that shifted anything or have you seen any result of that in your business or any of the transactions that are being made there?  [00:21:31] Abe Batshon: Yeah, so I'm not too aware of too many producers on the platform that have kind of sold their rights away or anything like that. It hasn't happened on the platform, but I'm sure, I'm sure there's been, you know, those investor, kind of like investor copyright types that are out there acquiring rights of music, whether it's, you know, from the producer's side of things. But I'm sure they get approached all the time. I just, I don't know of any, like, specific creator producer on the platform that's done it yet. But I'm sure, like, a lot of people are having those conversations with them for sure.  [00:22:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, 'cause I know the artists' side, artists get reached out to all the time now about this whether it's from the main investment firms that we know, or even some that in my experience don't really do much in music, but have reached out because they'll reach out to me to see if I can reach out to these artists, right? And I got to imagine that in some ways, not only are they looking for the artists themselves, they're looking okay, where are these artists? Where are the catalogs that they own? So it's fascinating to see, I assume that it's likely a conversation that, especially given the way your business is, I know you said that a thousand dollars is the average payout annually that artists or that the beat makers and producers get on the platform, but I'm sure that it is quite top-heavy itself where, you know, there are the few that are just bringing in so much, and I'm sure that they're probably hearing some of those conversations every now and then.  [00:22:54] Abe Batshon: For sure. For sure. Yeah. I'm sure it's happening a hundred percent.  [00:22:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah. One of the things that I had seen, especially with BeatStars, we talked about how growth you've had recently, and, I believe this was at July 2020, you had $85 million in payouts that you had done to beat makers specifically at that point since you had launched a platform in 2008, and then you had recently announced a few months back here now in 2022, that you had had $200 million. So quite a big jump, it’s almost double in less than a two-year span. One, it would be great to hear what that was like and also, what are the steps that happened or what are the things that you all had done that helped you, you know, double everything that you had done the past decade-plus in the past two years? [00:23:44] Abe Batshon: Yeah. I mean, our growth trajectory, even the years prior were a hundred percent year over year as well, too. So we were already kind of pre-pandemic move, like, that was our growth trajectory prior as well. It just took us a long time. It just took us a long time. We did it the slow and steady way. And the last two years, I would say, for sure the pandemic put a priority, yeah, I guess I guess people started questioning their existence, man. You know, like we started questioning our existence and we're like, am I not going to explore my art, you know? Like, I know I was doing it. I was making more music during the pandemic. And I would, you know, meet a lot of our creators and I and I would hear their stories and like, I started singing during the pandemic, or I started making beats more seriously, I'm home and I needed an outlet to kind of license and sell them. And so I think the pandemic definitely kind of accelerated the priority or like top of mind of creators to take it more seriously or to kind of, you know, explore more serious options for monetizing their music. So it's been a blessing to kind of see the platform and marketplace grow globally all over the world, and yeah, the marketplace is still booming and still going crazy. And I think, you know, we'll achieve over 70 million this year for sure. That's kind of our projection, could be more. So yeah, the licensing activity is continuing to go great. I'm excited. I'm excited about the future, man. [00:25:06] Dan Runcie: That's good to hear because I am not surprised to hear the growth in the pandemic. I think there's so many things we can look back on the past two and a half years where especially something like this, where the art of doing it is something that people could do at home. So many people that are creating products, or creating services, or music, or medium putting out into the world, so much of that picked up and there was so much that was successful. And I think we saw that with the way the stocks went and the way everything was. So you had this run from March 2020 pretty much up until let's say November 2021, when everything was booming, right? The past six months, we saw certain things come back down to earth a bit. And I think there were a lot of the pandemic stocks and a lot of the companies, even the ones in the music industry that had had sky-high valuations, coming back down to earth a little bit, but at least for you all, I'm getting the impression that that hasn't necessarily impacted you from that perspective, given I think you have a different business model than a lot of the companies that had, you know, challenges there, but how the past three to six months been specifically? [00:26:10] Abe Batshon: Yeah, I think our growth has kind of leveled off a little bit. We're kind of, you know, I guess, the normalization of things are happening for sure. And we're having to work harder to like retain our subscribers and users. It's just shifting our approach and adjusting and pivoting to more accessible business models for this time and this moment in our history. I mean, it's for sure a recession. It's happening globally. It's impacting a lot of people's lives and we need to make sure that we kind of still factor that in mind and create products that are are still useful and accessible and functional for anyone with any economic status that they're in, you know, because it breaks my soul if someone can't afford a BeatStars subscription and can't explore their art and can't develop themselves and meet those goals because of this current space that we're in right now. So we're definitely pivoting and adjusting and thinking about new and better accessible business models that can cater to anyone with any kind of economic status. So, we're definitely adjusting things though.  [00:27:11] Dan Runcie: I could imagine. I do think though that these things aren't permanent and, of course, we'll see things pick up, again it's just a matter of the timing there specifically. I do feel like for you all, it's interesting because the future of where this all is heading right now, you, as you mentioned, I think that you were a bit ahead of the curve. So, you know, growth in the early days may not have been as fast, but now we're in this place where people saw the success you have, people see the potential of where things going and now more companies are starting to launch their own beat marketplaces and ones that we're establishing other places. Have you seen that impact, what you've seen in your businesses? Because I know that, at least from other people I talked to that are in streaming of the DSPs, they've talked about how we've switched from this herbivore market where everyone's just capturing people that are generally wanting subscriptions to now they're in this carnivore mode of competing with each other. Have you seen any of that where you feel like the people who are beat makers now, it's not so much capturing new ones. It's essentially positioning yourselves from the competitors who have come after you.  [00:28:20] Abe Batshon: Yeah, I'm definitely, you know, definitely aware of the competitors, and a lot of these guys were admirers of what we've done. And you know, I know them personally. It's flattering, you know. It's flattering to see in terms of people being inspired by the things that I create and build and what we do here as a company as well too. And it's part of being in a capitalistic society that we're in, you know. Monkey see monkey do, you know. I feel like it's increased our kind of our competitive spirits here at the company to want to be more innovative. I think it's a blessing that there's other folks trying to come into our space. For me, I've been doing this for almost 15 years, right? So it's, I need a kick in the ass in terms of where I want to go in my career and the aspirations where I want to see BeatStars. I mean, we've always been driven and always been the hardest working and most caring community that you'll ever see in terms of the music producers. But yeah, I just use it as a competitive chip to keep moving and pushing and pushing for our creators to provide even more fair and useful products for them. I haven't seen a shift in like our business or anything like that because of the competitors, you know. It may take a while for that to happen. If they do something super unique or whatever it is that they're doing, but I haven't seen anything that's like, exciting from an innovation standpoint. It's just monkey see monkey do, copycats.  [00:29:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That was going to be my next question, you see, if are there new things that you're seeing the competitors do that make you say, oh, that's interesting, right? 'Cause that would definitely validate the ass-kicking or the bit of the push there. It reminds you of that sports analogy, right? Like how. Michael Jordan had to go create these demons out of thin air because there was really no one at this level, and anytime someone tried to say, oh, Jordan or Drexler, he just like squash it that immediately. So you all having that, yeah.  [00:30:04] Abe Batshon: I've always had that. You know, I'm a sports guy, huge sports guy, played sports my whole life, too. And so I definitely was competing with myself in terms of wanting to be better and extract more capacity of myself and see myself and my team's dreams continue to grow. But yeah, I just use those as just another factor into, and I'm not to say anyone's intentions are bad or anyone's intentions are good, but it's a little suspect. It's a little suspect. It's a little bit, I don't know, what's the word, but it feels ingenuine. It feels like a land grab. It feels like a money game. And for us, it's never been about the money. It's always been about these young people all over the world and old people, creators from everywhere. Like, can we liberate the idea of songs? Can we help push people to be more experimental with their words and their messages and their art and something that's so personal for them. I don't see any of these like venture- companies or big invested type of companies actually having a genuine approach to how they treat or deal with their community. So I'm really not worried about it. I definitely keep them in mind in terms of continuing our fight to liberate music. [00:31:13] Dan Runcie: How do you feel in general about the amount of VC money that has entered music and music tech and the platforms and companies that have been launched?  [00:31:22] Abe Batshon: Dude, where was this money when I was in, like, Silicon Valley? You know, I mean, I'm from the East Bay, Hayward, California. And you know, Silicon Valley was just right down the street. And when I was building BeatStars, man, I couldn't even get a meeting with these guys. Like, I created 12 of the most amazing decks throughout my career that no one ever actually saw. Like, I couldn't sell anyone on the concept of investing into music. But like I understand that at that time, the music industry was going through a huge transitional moment. Like, everyone was really scared about the future of music. So it was pretty disastrous in terms of where music was at that time, and if I wasn't an investor, I probably wouldn't have invested in me either. But I never even got an opportunity to even you know, meet investors or pitch the ideas of BeatStars. We had to bootstrap this thing the whole way. And our creators invested in us, our customers did, we built this thing together with them. We just continue to reinvest every little penny that we made back into the platform. And so I think it made the journey a lot more satisfying, but it's exciting that there's much more investment and people willing to believe and other entrepreneurs and their ideas. I think it's cool. It pushes all of us, you know, pushes our creative boundaries and it's cool to see money flow. And I I'm happy that, you know, other entrepreneurs are not going to have to struggle the way that I did for 13, 14 years before I was, you know, able to kind of like sustain ourselves. So it's like, but you know, we kind of always figured out ways to sustain ourselves build organically, which has been beautiful. And we've been profitable since day one and we just continue to run lean, you know, and just not be wasteful and just, yeah. So it's exciting. I don't know where it's going to go. I mean, I don't know where a lot of the money is actually flowing in music tech, really. You probably know more than me, Dan. I don't pay attention to a lot of that stuff.  [00:33:06] Dan Runcie: You're too busy building to track this stuff.  [00:33:08] Abe Batshon: I'm busy, man.  [00:33:09] Dan Runcie: That's my job.  [00:33:11] Abe Batshon: Busy, dude, too busy.  [00:33:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah. With that though, do you get more interest or offers from any of these tech companies now, because I've started to hear from a lot of the companies that rose up the same timeframe that you did that. Now, when all this money pours in, now they're getting the attention, too, and the interest, too, from these investors that wouldn't have paid attention before, but now it's much less about the initial investment. Now they're trying to either acquire and now they're trying to do a joint venture, do these things. What have those conversations been like?  [00:33:48] Abe Batshon: It's definitely getting aggressive for sure. And I think because of where we are right now, economically, you know, investors feel like they can come in and get a good deal right now for all these startups or companies that have existed even prior to the pandemic that are still thriving through it as well. I'm seeing a lot of acquisitions happen, a lot of private equity stuff happening. And it's interesting. It's interesting. We don't need the money, Dan, in terms of like where we are financially. We're, you know, we're self sustaining. We've got a ton of money in the bank and we have our investment plan internally to kind of finish our, you know, not finish, but continue our roadmap of all the things that we dream of wanting to do and build within our goals at BeatStars. So, thank God I'm healthy. I'm feeling good. I'm in remission. I I battled cancer the last couple years during the pandemic. And you know, that was a shaky moment for me during that time. It was really up and down. I didn't know where my future was and still kind of in it, but I'm thankfully feeling really well and just energized and I'm enjoying independence, I'm enjoying independence. And I really feel that we're in a good spot to kind of push through this kind of down moment of the economy and head down and focus on our creators while everyone is just focusing on profit and revenue. And we're going to do the opposite and just build something that's going to be a utility for people for many years to come, hopefully.  [00:35:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely, I mean.  [00:35:08] Abe Batshon: They're coming though. They're throwing checks. They're, you know, they're throwing checks at us. They're making offers, but, yeah, we're just not ready right now. We're just not ready.  [00:35:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And like you said, you have the vision for this and the amount that you've poured into it, the amount that you've gone through, as you mentioned, especially in recent years, like all that comes through with the story, and I think that is what connects with both the artists and what connects with anyone that may be interested from a business perspective. And I think you do have the control, the autonomy to make those shots when you want to, and that's the power of bootstrapping, right? We all know the trade-offs where, yeah, it can take time as you very well know. But if you're able to get through the other side, the autonomy you have. You could make decisions like you don't have to have, you know, the investors reading it out of your deck or anything else are trying to wonder why you're not pumping more Facebook and Google ads to go do this or that, right? Like, you're able to do the things on your terms and to clarify, is the ownership a hundred percent you for the company or?  [00:36:03] Abe Batshon: No, it's not a hundred percent me. Some employees have ownership in the company. We did take a minor, a very small, minor investment from Sony music publishing when we did our joint venture together. They've been great partners. They've been awesome. And they've been helping us kind of strategize and scale our publishing business, which I believe in the last 16 months, we've had 26 Billboard 100 hits that are from our BeatStars publishing roster of creators. One of our producers has two songs on Beyoncé's new album. And I know we had Megan Thee Stallion's new single, Pressurelicious, with one of our producers, I believe, it was HitKidd with Future. So it's like, it's so cool to see that our business is touching so many different parts of the music business. It's not just the independent creator like we're powering songs, even for the major, major superstar artists, which is awesome to see. So yeah, I'm excited about the future, man. I think we're just getting started, Dan.  [00:36:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah. and it's always fascinating to hear how companies like yours think about the compensation and things like that for employees because with a lot of the other competitors or even others in the space, especially with the amount of money that support and people are getting, you know, equity in these companies and they are getting them because if they're VC backed, then they have an exit in the mindset and you aren't coming from that perspective. So it's always interesting to hear, okay, what are the other things you're doing? So, yeah, it sounds like you're still doing equity, I know.  [00:37:22] Abe Batshon: Oh, I forgot to mention like there's 400 creators as well. 400 creators that invested in BeatStars when we partnered with Indiegogo back in 2016 to be one of their, actually their initial kind of equity crowdfunding launch partners. And it wasn't because we needed funds or needed money at that time. We did it because I loved the fact that our creators can actually, like, buy ownership into the company, and I can like, continue serving them, man. I can continue feeling like, you know, I have to make sure I'm reporting to these people because these are the people that keep me grounded. These are the people that keep me focused on, you know, how we impact all the other creators' lives. So yeah, we have 400 other creators from the platform that invested like $150,000 total during that campaign. So it was pretty cool to know that they're also on our ownership structure. [00:38:11] Dan Runcie: That's great to see them on the cap table. That's great. I'd like to close this conversation out.  [00:38:16] Abe Batshon: Hopefully, make some money at some point.  [00:38:19] Dan Runcie: Well, I mean, that depends how some of these conversations go with these, you know, companies breathing down your back.  [00:38:23] Abe Batshon: Exactly.  [00:38:24] Dan Runcie: So we'll see. [00:38:25] Abe Batshon: For sure. [00:38:26] Dan Runcie: But I like to close this conversation out of it and talk about focus because you talked a lot about creators and how you're focused on serving them. We're talking primarily about the people who are buying beats, the people that are selling beats, and anyone involved with that production or engineering process. But for you, I know what it's like to build a company. I'm sure there's been plenty of times where not just you or some of the people you're working with are like, oh, what if you did this? What if we did that, right? But you've been able to stay focused on I'm sure, part of it was likely a function of you're building as fast as you can. Given the fact that you're bootstrapped, some of your focus is by design, but then on the other hand, now that things are starting to come in, you're starting to see the success in reaping the rewards. I'm sure there's likely some thoughts of maybe that thing that you had in the back of your mind for a few years, but now maybe it's a little bit easier to do if you're going to be, you know, hitting nine-figure payouts annually soon enough. What are some of those things, if there are, that you have on the roadmap for where things are going for other things you might be doing? [00:39:30] Abe Batshon: Yeah, we definitely want to make some acquisitions for sure. We're exploring some of that too. We're exploring some potential acquisitions, and I think maybe we'll do our first one by the beginning of 2023. Never know. So we're definitely thinking about how can we acquire some technology or companies or communities that really would help elevate what we're doing. So definitely, definitely thinking about that. We're investing a ton in technology, man. We're, I mean our engineering team, we're probably, we'll double by next year. I think we're at like 40, 40 people on the engineering team now. So we have all of these cool projects that these engineering pods are working on and it's exciting to see. So you'll definitely start seeing a lot more innovation more frequently from BeatStars soon. We have spent, and it may look like focus, but really it's been just kind of a restrain of our technology for the last four or five years. We've been rebuilding our whole tech stack, the back end, front end, the whole thing, because, you know, we were still using legacy platform from 2008 when it was just, you know, me and our founding members of the company, Joseph Aguilar, one of our engineers, you know, building it together and we're just some kids, you know, just going crazy. We didn't think that this thing was going to scale to millions and millions of creators all over the world. So we had to kind of pivot four years ago. And we're about 95% done in terms of the full platform rebuild. And from a technology standpoint, we're competing with some of the biggest music services in the world in terms of our tech stack. Now we're prepared to really do some damage now and build on top of what we're doing and optimize our offering and also get into some different verticals as well, too. So, yeah, it's kind of like a new rebirth of BeatStars in a sense, a whole new team, a whole new technology stack, a whole new drive, and purpose. And we're building out our executive team right now, too. It's been just me in terms of executives. I was wearing all the hats, and I don't know why I was doing that. And we just hired a Head of People, Sarah Simmons, who just joined us. We have our CTO, Nader Fares. We hired Damien Ritter as our President of Label.  [00:41:37] Dan Runcie: My guy, Dame.  [00:41:38] Abe Batshon: Yeah, man, Dame is legend and legend to me in terms of what he's done on the independent record label front, you know, and what he's been able to do, the dude's one of the smartest guys I know. And I'm excited to have him lead the initial kind of kickoff of what a BeatStars record label can look like. Like, so many amazing artists have been discovered on BeatStars, even just from our competitions. You know, like we discovered Ali, Ali Gatie, won one of our song contests and he's got billions of streams, you know, Joyner Lucas, and Anees. Anees is an independent artist right now that's doing some amazing things, touring, you know, he's got a hit song called Sun and Moon and just killing it on TikTok and just so cool, man, just so cool to see all of these amazing artists take and utilize the platform the best way and build careers. And, yeah, so it's cool to see all these different things happen and finally bringing some like seasoned leadership to, you know, bounce things off of and build with and collaborate with. And I think I've come to a place in my career now. I feel like almost 15 years in, I can let go of some control and I think I've matured enough as an executive to now understand and articulate what the company needs and what we want in our dreams and now do it in a collaborative way with a bunch of amazing people that have the same kind of mission. So it's exciting to see what this new phase of BeatStars goes into.  [00:42:55] Dan Runcie: Making moves. Love to hear it. [00:42:57] Abe Batshon: Trying to, man. [00:42:58] Dan Runcie: Hey, hey, that says that's the journey. That's the journey. Well, Abe, this has been great. Appreciate you for coming on, and before we let you go, we want to make sure that people that are listening know to find you, so where can they go to either follow you or to follow BeatStars if they want to tap in more?  [00:43:14] Abe Batshon: Thanks, Dan. Dude, I'm some big fan of yours, like I told you before the podcast. Congratulations. Amazing to follow your journey as well. Follow BeatStars at @BeatStars, B E A T S T A R S everywhere. My personal social media shut down everywhere for the last few months. I shut it down, but I'm going to bring it back, just @AbeBatshon and excited to hear the feedback from this episode from folks listening to it. Appreciate you having me on man.  [00:43:37] Dan Runcie: Of course, and best luck to you and best luck to you from health, most importantly, and with the business too.  [00:43:43] Abe Batshon: Thank you, sir. [00:43:45] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Before Abe Batshon started BeatStars in 2008, a handful of superproducers had a quasi-monopoly on selling beats, charging hundreds of thousands of dollars per song. Top producers still get paid today, but the concept has become more antiquated with platforms like BeatStars democratizing beat-making. Creators can sell instrumentals — either under an exclusive license or not — to artists around the globe for a fraction of the previous cost. With $200 million paid out to creators to date, BeatStars has reset the entire economics of beats. 


Abe started BeatStars without any VC funding during the Great Recession. This was also pre-steaming, when the music industry was in its dark days. Bootstrapping the company, BeatStars would redefine the music landscape along with other DIY distribution platforms such as SoundCloud and YouTube. Abe’s goal from the get-go was to break the relationship-driven nature of creating music and open opportunities for creators around the globe.


Fourteen years later, it’s safe to say Abe has created more opportunities and then some. Famously, Lil Nas X bought the beat for viral sensation “Old Town Road” on BeatStars for $30. BeatStars’ producers have also been featured on songs released by Drake and Ariana Grande and ads for adidas, the NBA, and many more. BeatStars’ fingerprints are all over media, not just the independents but the majors too. 


Here’s all the noteworthy moments during our conversation:


[3:27] Recognizing BeatStars instrumentals online 

[6:18] Starting BeatStars amid 2008 music landscape

[7:28] Receiving pushback when BeatStars began

[10:02] What finally changed for producers

[12:20] Resetting economics of beats

[16:25] Typical earnings for BeatStars creators


[20:36] Music syncs in mainstream media

[23:44] BeatStars growth trajectory

[28:20] More competitors in the marketplace 

[31:22] VC money’s impact in the music industry 

[36:03] BeatStars cap table

[39:30] Roadmap for the future



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Abe Batshon, @AbeBatshon

 

 

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TRANSCRIPTION


[00:00:00] Abe Batshon: for us, it's never been about the money. It's always been about these young people all over the world and old people, creators from everywhere. Like, can we liberate the idea of songs? Can we help push people to be more experimental with their words and their messages and their art and something that's so personal for them. I don't see any of these like venture-backed companies or big invested-type of companies actually having a genuine approach to how they treat or deal with their community. So I'm really not worried about it. I definitely keep them in mind in terms of continuing our fight to liberate music. 

[00:00:57] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is a topic I've been wanting to dive into for a minute and this is about the business of buying and selling beats. It's a fascinating marketplace that has shifted considerably over the past few decades. So I wanted to bring on an expert himself to chat about it. Abe Batshon, who is the founder and CEO of BeatStars, which is a marketplace for buying and selling beats. He joined me on this topic, and we took a trip down memory lane. We went back to the 2000s, we talked about what it was like. You remember when Timbaland was bragging about getting half a mill for his beats and Neptunes had 40% of the songs on the radio? As great as it was for them, there really wasn't a lot for the other producers and other people that were trying to come up, so BeatStars came up in this post-YouTube era to make it possible for having this marketplace. And Abe talks about what it was like back then and just given some of the challenges that existed with the music industry, searching for its own business model at the dark days of piracy and trying to navigate that. But then also with the early days of the streaming era and how that has lifted his business. In the past two years, BeatStars has made more money than it made in the past 12 years before that, and it's on track to have another one of its biggest years yet now. So we talk about what that journey's been like, what led to that, and how this marketplace and how this business has evolved. When Abe was starting this, people laughed at him because they thought it was crazy what he was trying to do. Today, there are plenty of investors with bigger pockets that are trying to come in and eat his lunch. So we talked about what that looks like and why he still thinks that BeatStars is well positioned there. We also talk more broadly about the amount of VC money that's come into music tech, and how he looks at that, and what it looks like for other opportunities. If you're as fascinated about this topic as I am, you'll love this conversation. Abe kept it real and it was great to talk to him. Here's our chat.

[00:02:55] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have Abe Batshon who is the CEO and founder of BeatStars. One of the premier places to buy and sell beats and wanted to have him on so we could have a conversation about this entire process, this landscape, and right before we recorded, Abe, you were just telling me about how you were listening to a different podcast. And you could hear when you hear that BeatStars beats on a podcast, Trapital podcast, of course, mine came from there. How do you know that the beat for sure came from BeatStars as opposed to somewhere else? 

[00:03:27] Abe Batshon: Well, yeah, I'm a dude. I listen to so much music on the platform. Like, I process everything so much and I kind of, I don't know if it's photographic memory in terms of when you hear something, I just retain that information around that piece of music forever. Like, I know when I've heard something. Yeah, so, yes, I'll randomly, like, you know, turn on the TV or turn on the radio or turn on, you know, TikTok or turn on SoundCloud or turn on anywhere. And I'm like, holy shit. Or Spotify, you know? And I'm listening to, like, some of the trending viral songs or the top Billboard songs. I'm like, yeah, I know those beats. I know those beats. I've heard those before. Yeah. 

[00:04:04] Dan Runcie: Do you feel like there's a distinct brand or sound that has BeatStars sound that you can pick up on almost in the same way that well-known and established producer has that sound like you could hear a track and be like, oh, that's a Neptunes track even if I'd never heard it before, do you feel like that's the case for a BeatStars beats? 

[00:04:21] Abe Batshon: Good question. You know, maybe eight years ago, nine years ago, yeah, I could have, you know, been like, okay, that's definitely an influence from the marketplace, from the sound, from the platform, but today with the amount of variety and just so many different genres, and sub-genres and styles of music that's getting uploaded to BeatStars, it's impossible to just define it to one, sound anymore, but maybe 10 years ago, for sure. Yeah, not now, not now. 

[00:04:49] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That makes sense from the timeframe perspective 'cause I could imagine, especially in the early days, there are artists you have that are likely championing the service. And if they're bringing on others that want to have that artist-type beat there, then there's going to be a lot of that similarity. But over time, especially with where you are now, over 200 million paid out to artists on this platform that just speaks to the reach that you have and everything that you've been able to do from it. 

[00:05:16] Abe Batshon: Yeah, man. so fulfilling, so fulfilling to just like know that's the kind of impact the technology and platform is making for, you know, for creators' lives. I'm definitely not satisfied with that number at all. But it's a great, great motivational indicator for me to keep going for the team, to keep pushing. But, you know, our aspirations are a lot bigger than that for sure. 

[00:05:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Let's actually go back a bit because I think that could be a way to have the arc of where this is going. Of course, you started this company in 2008, but in the 2000s, it was such a different landscape for producers, beat makers. And I look at that era as being quite top-heavy, right? If you were one of the super producers. If you were Timbaland, if you were Pharrell, if you were Kanye, then you almost had a, you know, quasi-monopoly in a particular area of just what you could charge, what you could do. But for everyone else that wasn't a superstar, it was a much more challenging landscape, I could assume. Can you speak to what it was like that time frame? 

[00:06:18] Abe Batshon: Oh, so challenging then. So challenging, you know, I was working at INgrooves prior to me starting up BeatStars and, you know, I'd work with a bunch of artists, and labels and I'd get to know, like, the producers behind some of the work that's being released. And even for those top-heavy guys that I was talking to, they started definitely feeling a shift in how operationally the record labels were approaching licensing of beats and the development of an artist. You know, I think I just saw a recent article. I forget which publication, oh, maybe Billboard just the other day about how everyone's a distributor now. All the majors are just, you know, they're distributors. Each one of their kind of like sub-companies under the parent companies are all, you know, competing with each other, actually as distribution companies, and it's creating like a healthy competition of distribution. And so, you know, that wasn't the case back then, man. You know, back in the day, like, the major record labels weren't operating from a DIY, you know, distribution mindset of like mass distribution, mass releases of content. That wasn't the mindset. So, yeah, it was a much more controlled environment with which producers actually were contributing to, you know, these songs or these albums that were, you know, the majority of what we were listening to back in 2008. And I think you know, what changed at all was, was the emergence of probably YouTube, right? The emergence of YouTube, and SoundCloud, and, you know, and BeatStars, right? And the accessibility and the ability to now reach a broader and global audience of collaborators and music creators. And we were kind of laughed at. We were kind of laughed at in the beginning, you know, everything different that goes against a grain, that goes against a traditional way of how things are done, there's always going to be some resistance to that model or any resistance to those ideas. And it used to bother me back in the day and I used to get some of these super producers, you know, some of them would send me like dirty messages, like you're fucking up the game. You're saturating, you're devaluing our art. And I didn't see it that way. You know, I didn't see it that way. I was seeing it as a new opportunity to create more and broader reach of intellectual property for the independent creator that can actually sustain themselves in a world where it's controlled by a few different organizations, you know. 

[00:08:36] Dan Runcie: Definitely. Thinking about those artists themselves. I'm thinking back to that time, there was that stat, maybe it was in 2002 or 2003, where they said that 43% of the songs on the radio were Neptune songs. And I think you could have said the same about Timbaland. You could have said the same about Max Martin or any of these people that are just on the radio so much, but you come in with this platform that very much speaks to where we were in the music industry and where things were with technology with hip-hop specifically. This is the blog era, it's really starting to pick up. You're starting to see more of that DIY distribution from the artist side. SoundCloud was just launched and even Spotify was still in the early days, but streaming still didn't take off the way it did. And I can imagine that some of the pushback or some of their response you got was from people feeling that you were likely ahead of the curve, and because of that, there were still several years before things really took off in streaming. So it was probably interesting just to see the landscape evolve. And then as you had success, you saw other competitors come in and other folks see the landscape and you're like, well, you know, I've been trying to tell you all, this is what the vision has been since the 2000s. But back then, the industry was just in such a place of people were still trying to push CDs. Like people were still trying to fight piracy. And like, when you think about that, I'm not surprised at all that you had faced some of that pushback you did. 

[00:10:02] Abe Batshon: Yeah. I'm trying to kind of go back to those days in hip-hop, you know, everyone was the plug for certain things. Everyone was the plug for certain things. And you had to go through this person or this company in order to achieve some of the, like, artistry goals that you have as an artist, you know? And there was a determined route that you had to go, you know. There was a determined route that you had to go and you had to go through certain gatekeepers in order to, you know, achieve success. And it just bothered me from a human level. You know, it bothered me from a human level that we're not allowed to experiment and develop art, you know. Closed environments, the outcome of those. Like you said, how many more Neptunes hits can we have continued to listen to? Nothing against the Neptunes, I fucking love those guys, right? They're amazing, they're geniuses. But even them, they would tell you that, yeah, that kind of monopoly was probably unhealthy for music, for artists all over the world. You know, I'm sure they will tell you that that opportunity was, you know, scarce, you know, opportunity was scarce. And yeah, it was relationship-driven industry, you know, so it was a different time, different time. And I think my goal was to just completely break it.

[00:11:16] Dan Runcie: Thinking about that time too. You had the people that were the top producers at those times, and they could charge handover fist for a beat. I mean, there's the line where, you know, Timbaland's like, I'm getting half a mill for a beat. And if I'm thinking about just from the competitive dynamic, what happened there, you did have this very top-heavy landscape. And in some ways they're telling you, Hey, you know, you're fucking up our money. And in some ways you are, but not necessarily in a bad way because you're letting everyone else that couldn't eat at all at least get something, right? So when you now introduce this marketplace and no, you don't necessarily have to pay half a million for a Timbaland beat to get on the radio. You could pay under a thousand dollars, a few hundred dollars to have one of the biggest songs of the summer on your music, and being able to do that lifts it up for everyone else. So I think whether it's your Timbaland's or your Mike Will, other folks could still get, you know, six figures or a lot of money, but I don't know if they're getting that 2006 or those 2003 checks that they were for the type of beats they did.

[00:12:20] Abe Batshon: But, Dan, superstars are superstars in terms of creation, right, in terms of music production. Even on BeatStars, right, even on BeatStars, maybe, yeah, there's some producers on a platform that don't have that type of name recognition in a game of only a handful of producers. It's kind of different now to gain that kind of name recognition, but there are superstars on BeatStars. There are superstars that are generating half a million dollars in cumulative earnings in licensing revenue from one beat on BeatStars. So those days of like earning hundreds of thousands of dollars on one track is still happening on the platform. It's just happening in a different model. It's happening in a non-exclusive model where thousands of recording artists are, you know, licensing that same production and have the rights to create another master version of that production. But at the end of the day, that producer generated hundreds of thousands of dollars just from that one piece of content that lives as a catalog item in their store. Yeah. And I'm hearing like huge songs now on the radio that those beats are still available, non-exclusively on the platform, they're still available. So producers are becoming less and less willing to let go of their intellectual property exclusively because there's just so much backend earnings and recurring revenue, business building and, you know, forecasting of earnings for themselves, that it doesn't make sense now for them to kind of give up the rights to just one rights holder anymore. So now it's super competitive and it's gotten to a point where I think competition is healthy in song making like, Hey, here's the beat, $20. By the way, some of these beats, a lot of these beats that live on BeatStars, if they existed back in those 2000s, when it was the heyday of license revenue of 200,000 a beat or 500,000 a beat from Timbaland. Like, these beats are competing with those beats or even beyond them, right, 'cause these kids are pumping out content like crazy, right? They're bending this software in terms of DAW, the accessibility to digital VSTs, and effects, and processing, and sound libraries and, like, their ability to, like, craft, you know, sonically, like, amazing, amazing records that penetrate every market around the world. Like, it's much easier now. Back then it was harder. But, yeah, I think the earnings potential is still there on BeatStars. You know, I think it's still there. It still exists and that's why we're still seeing producers that have had tons of success, you know, licensing to major recording artists still maintaining and developing and building their online presence on BeatStars. Like, it's still a major income stream from them to the point where they can't neglect it. And they can't completely immerse themselves in the traditional way of like, you know, music licensing within the industry. It's cool to see. It's cool to see a balance. You got to have both. You got to have both today. 

[00:15:07] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. And I'm glad you brought that point up 'cause that's an important distinction 'cause, of course, we're talking before about the upfront money that the super producers were getting in the 2000s, but people were rarely talking about the totality of it, and what it looks like. And that's what you're talking about here and being able to measure it in totality makes so much more sense because, with the way it currently is now, with an artist releases something on BeatStars, there's so many ways that they can generate money from that, whether that's, especially if it's non-exclusive, as you mentioned, people can pay for it directly. Anyone that is then using that beat, you could earn revenue directly, you know, from anything that's there, depending on the arrangement. But then I think you have this additional benefit where people, especially with TikTok and all these other platforms, they want to be able to remix and make their own versions of songs and being able to do that and how that can compound on each other. That's what makes the platforms like this successful. And maybe it would be helpful to hear you mentioned that, you know, there are superstars on the platform that are making and exceeding a lot of those, you know, revenue totals that we had seen before. What does a typical breakdown of that look like in terms of how much of that comes from upfront sales of people purchasing versus how much of it is the recurring and maybe ballpark? We don't need anything too exact, but maybe to give an idea. 

[00:16:25] Abe Batshon: Yeah. So I guess we can only attribute the upfront micro licensing revenue on BeatStars, right? That $200 million, that micro licensing. But if we wanted to get very, very technical, we can talk about the earnings that were actually, you know, generated from those, you know, derivative works, those songs that were made from those beats. And if you calculate the earnings from the millions of songs that are created on the platform every year that get distributed to DSPs and DIY distributors, you're talking probably billions of dollars of earnings, music copyright earnings from, all of these non-exclusive licenses, cumulatively. So I wish there was a way to calculate all that, but it's hard to like quantify that. But I think today, from a platform earnings potential on BeatStars. I think the average seller producer on the platform generates over a thousand dollars a year, you know, which, Hey, a thousand bucks is, you know, not the craziest amount, but if you compare that to the average earnings of artists on these DSPs or some of these, some of these other ways of earning revenue from music. I don't want to poke too many holes at platforms that are, you know, kind of not building their businesses and products with the music creators in mind. I wish they would. I wish they would, but we're not going to get too deep into that. But I think I'm proud. 

[00:17:53] Dan Runcie: I was going to say there's somewhat listening right now that is backing into the math of how many streams does it take to get a thousand dollars a year?

[00:18:01] Abe Batshon: Right. Exactly. Yeah, I think if we were to calculate the stream versus earning ratio on BeatStars, yeah, our million streams are definitely generating a shit ton more, shit-ton more than what you would earn, you know. But again, it's a different concept, different way of consumption. Things are happening differently than compared to, you know, the more bigger consumer products that are out there, which, you know, we're going to keep up with them at some point though, I think, and that's one of our goals is to build a more consumer-friendly product that actually is not just niche to artists and music producers. So we're excited about what the future of what we can do for our creators, yeah. 

[00:18:41] Dan Runcie: Can we talk a little bit more about that? What would that consumer side look like? 'Cause I think as you mentioned, a lot of the creators themselves are the ones that are using the platform, getting the most out of it, but what would the more creator side focus look like?

[00:18:56] Abe Batshon: Like a more creator-focused platform that evolves, what the evolution of what BeatStars could be? Yeah, I mean, you know, we are already starting to do it. We're already starting to do it in terms of adding publishing administration, global publishing administration, and partnership with Sony Music Publishing and giving our creators the ability to go and collect on, you know, all their royalties worldwide. I think is a big one from all of these copyrights that are made on the platform that they still have ownership and rights to. You know, we don't take ownership of anything on the platform. Our creators right now keep a hundred percent of all their sales on the platform. They maintain all of their ownership. They dictate and decide what their license terms look like. We're just a technology layer just facilitating this collaboration. And I think, we'll definitely get into a lot more, a lot more businesses that are complimentary to music licensing. So we do allow our creators to sell sound kits and samples as well, too. And I think we're, you know, we're going to build a more sophisticated product around that. Major companies are already licensing for syncs already off of the platform indirectly, even though that's kind of not the primary function on the platform. That's something that, you know, we're exploring and, and going to expand on as well 'cause just another revenue stream opportunity, you know.

[00:20:12] Dan Runcie: I was going to ask you about syncs next because I feel like that is so current and top of mind, especially the explosion of video streaming right now in all those projects. And so many people see the benefit of having a good sync. And I think we're having these conversations before, but ever since the Kate Bush song on Stranger Things, those conversations have happened so many more times, more frequently than I've at least heard before then.

[00:20:36] Abe Batshon: For sure. For sure. Yeah. We used to have a, man, like eight years ago, we did have a sync license and I don't know why we took it away. We just kind of wanted to laser focus on just the non-exclusive licensing of artists and producers. But yeah, we're already seeing our music and Netflix documentaries. We're already seeing our music, you know, synced on movies, TV shows, independent, films, commercials for Adidas and Madden video games. We're seeing our content already being used in that way. You know, it makes sense to develop a product that's, you know, tailored for that community for sure. 

[00:21:06] Dan Runcie: Has any of the explosion of music rights buying and selling, has any of that changed and shaped your business in any way? Because I know that there are super producers themselves that have sold theirs, whether Tableland or Darkchild having done deals themselves. Has any of that shifted anything or have you seen any result of that in your business or any of the transactions that are being made there? 

[00:21:31] Abe Batshon: Yeah, so I'm not too aware of too many producers on the platform that have kind of sold their rights away or anything like that. It hasn't happened on the platform, but I'm sure, I'm sure there's been, you know, those investor, kind of like investor copyright types that are out there acquiring rights of music, whether it's, you know, from the producer's side of things. But I'm sure they get approached all the time. I just, I don't know of any, like, specific creator producer on the platform that's done it yet. But I'm sure, like, a lot of people are having those conversations with them for sure. 

[00:22:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah, 'cause I know the artists' side, artists get reached out to all the time now about this whether it's from the main investment firms that we know, or even some that in my experience don't really do much in music, but have reached out because they'll reach out to me to see if I can reach out to these artists, right? And I got to imagine that in some ways, not only are they looking for the artists themselves, they're looking okay, where are these artists? Where are the catalogs that they own? So it's fascinating to see, I assume that it's likely a conversation that, especially given the way your business is, I know you said that a thousand dollars is the average payout annually that artists or that the beat makers and producers get on the platform, but I'm sure that it is quite top-heavy itself where, you know, there are the few that are just bringing in so much, and I'm sure that they're probably hearing some of those conversations every now and then. 

[00:22:54] Abe Batshon: For sure. For sure. Yeah. I'm sure it's happening a hundred percent. 

[00:22:58] Dan Runcie: Yeah. One of the things that I had seen, especially with BeatStars, we talked about how growth you've had recently, and, I believe this was at July 2020, you had $85 million in payouts that you had done to beat makers specifically at that point since you had launched a platform in 2008, and then you had recently announced a few months back here now in 2022, that you had had $200 million. So quite a big jump, it’s almost double in less than a two-year span. One, it would be great to hear what that was like and also, what are the steps that happened or what are the things that you all had done that helped you, you know, double everything that you had done the past decade-plus in the past two years?

[00:23:44] Abe Batshon: Yeah. I mean, our growth trajectory, even the years prior were a hundred percent year over year as well, too. So we were already kind of pre-pandemic move, like, that was our growth trajectory prior as well. It just took us a long time. It just took us a long time. We did it the slow and steady way. And the last two years, I would say, for sure the pandemic put a priority, yeah, I guess I guess people started questioning their existence, man. You know, like we started questioning our existence and we're like, am I not going to explore my art, you know? Like, I know I was doing it. I was making more music during the pandemic. And I would, you know, meet a lot of our creators and I and I would hear their stories and like, I started singing during the pandemic, or I started making beats more seriously, I'm home and I needed an outlet to kind of license and sell them. And so I think the pandemic definitely kind of accelerated the priority or like top of mind of creators to take it more seriously or to kind of, you know, explore more serious options for monetizing their music. So it's been a blessing to kind of see the platform and marketplace grow globally all over the world, and yeah, the marketplace is still booming and still going crazy. And I think, you know, we'll achieve over 70 million this year for sure. That's kind of our projection, could be more. So yeah, the licensing activity is continuing to go great. I'm excited. I'm excited about the future, man.

[00:25:06] Dan Runcie: That's good to hear because I am not surprised to hear the growth in the pandemic. I think there's so many things we can look back on the past two and a half years where especially something like this, where the art of doing it is something that people could do at home. So many people that are creating products, or creating services, or music, or medium putting out into the world, so much of that picked up and there was so much that was successful. And I think we saw that with the way the stocks went and the way everything was. So you had this run from March 2020 pretty much up until let's say November 2021, when everything was booming, right? The past six months, we saw certain things come back down to earth a bit. And I think there were a lot of the pandemic stocks and a lot of the companies, even the ones in the music industry that had had sky-high valuations, coming back down to earth a little bit, but at least for you all, I'm getting the impression that that hasn't necessarily impacted you from that perspective, given I think you have a different business model than a lot of the companies that had, you know, challenges there, but how the past three to six months been specifically?

[00:26:10] Abe Batshon: Yeah, I think our growth has kind of leveled off a little bit. We're kind of, you know, I guess, the normalization of things are happening for sure. And we're having to work harder to like retain our subscribers and users. It's just shifting our approach and adjusting and pivoting to more accessible business models for this time and this moment in our history. I mean, it's for sure a recession. It's happening globally. It's impacting a lot of people's lives and we need to make sure that we kind of still factor that in mind and create products that are are still useful and accessible and functional for anyone with any economic status that they're in, you know, because it breaks my soul if someone can't afford a BeatStars subscription and can't explore their art and can't develop themselves and meet those goals because of this current space that we're in right now. So we're definitely pivoting and adjusting and thinking about new and better accessible business models that can cater to anyone with any kind of economic status. So, we're definitely adjusting things though. 

[00:27:11] Dan Runcie: I could imagine. I do think though that these things aren't permanent and, of course, we'll see things pick up, again it's just a matter of the timing there specifically. I do feel like for you all, it's interesting because the future of where this all is heading right now, you, as you mentioned, I think that you were a bit ahead of the curve. So, you know, growth in the early days may not have been as fast, but now we're in this place where people saw the success you have, people see the potential of where things going and now more companies are starting to launch their own beat marketplaces and ones that we're establishing other places. Have you seen that impact, what you've seen in your businesses? Because I know that, at least from other people I talked to that are in streaming of the DSPs, they've talked about how we've switched from this herbivore market where everyone's just capturing people that are generally wanting subscriptions to now they're in this carnivore mode of competing with each other. Have you seen any of that where you feel like the people who are beat makers now, it's not so much capturing new ones. It's essentially positioning yourselves from the competitors who have come after you. 

[00:28:20] Abe Batshon: Yeah, I'm definitely, you know, definitely aware of the competitors, and a lot of these guys were admirers of what we've done. And you know, I know them personally. It's flattering, you know. It's flattering to see in terms of people being inspired by the things that I create and build and what we do here as a company as well too. And it's part of being in a capitalistic society that we're in, you know. Monkey see monkey do, you know. I feel like it's increased our kind of our competitive spirits here at the company to want to be more innovative. I think it's a blessing that there's other folks trying to come into our space. For me, I've been doing this for almost 15 years, right? So it's, I need a kick in the ass in terms of where I want to go in my career and the aspirations where I want to see BeatStars. I mean, we've always been driven and always been the hardest working and most caring community that you'll ever see in terms of the music producers. But yeah, I just use it as a competitive chip to keep moving and pushing and pushing for our creators to provide even more fair and useful products for them. I haven't seen a shift in like our business or anything like that because of the competitors, you know. It may take a while for that to happen. If they do something super unique or whatever it is that they're doing, but I haven't seen anything that's like, exciting from an innovation standpoint. It's just monkey see monkey do, copycats. 

[00:29:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That was going to be my next question, you see, if are there new things that you're seeing the competitors do that make you say, oh, that's interesting, right? 'Cause that would definitely validate the ass-kicking or the bit of the push there. It reminds you of that sports analogy, right? Like how. Michael Jordan had to go create these demons out of thin air because there was really no one at this level, and anytime someone tried to say, oh, Jordan or Drexler, he just like squash it that immediately. So you all having that, yeah. 

[00:30:04] Abe Batshon: I've always had that. You know, I'm a sports guy, huge sports guy, played sports my whole life, too. And so I definitely was competing with myself in terms of wanting to be better and extract more capacity of myself and see myself and my team's dreams continue to grow. But yeah, I just use those as just another factor into, and I'm not to say anyone's intentions are bad or anyone's intentions are good, but it's a little suspect. It's a little suspect. It's a little bit, I don't know, what's the word, but it feels ingenuine. It feels like a land grab. It feels like a money game. And for us, it's never been about the money. It's always been about these young people all over the world and old people, creators from everywhere. Like, can we liberate the idea of songs? Can we help push people to be more experimental with their words and their messages and their art and something that's so personal for them. I don't see any of these like venture- companies or big invested type of companies actually having a genuine approach to how they treat or deal with their community. So I'm really not worried about it. I definitely keep them in mind in terms of continuing our fight to liberate music.

[00:31:13] Dan Runcie: How do you feel in general about the amount of VC money that has entered music and music tech and the platforms and companies that have been launched? 

[00:31:22] Abe Batshon: Dude, where was this money when I was in, like, Silicon Valley? You know, I mean, I'm from the East Bay, Hayward, California. And you know, Silicon Valley was just right down the street. And when I was building BeatStars, man, I couldn't even get a meeting with these guys. Like, I created 12 of the most amazing decks throughout my career that no one ever actually saw. Like, I couldn't sell anyone on the concept of investing into music. But like I understand that at that time, the music industry was going through a huge transitional moment. Like, everyone was really scared about the future of music. So it was pretty disastrous in terms of where music was at that time, and if I wasn't an investor, I probably wouldn't have invested in me either. But I never even got an opportunity to even you know, meet investors or pitch the ideas of BeatStars. We had to bootstrap this thing the whole way. And our creators invested in us, our customers did, we built this thing together with them. We just continue to reinvest every little penny that we made back into the platform. And so I think it made the journey a lot more satisfying, but it's exciting that there's much more investment and people willing to believe and other entrepreneurs and their ideas. I think it's cool. It pushes all of us, you know, pushes our creative boundaries and it's cool to see money flow. And I I'm happy that, you know, other entrepreneurs are not going to have to struggle the way that I did for 13, 14 years before I was, you know, able to kind of like sustain ourselves. So it's like, but you know, we kind of always figured out ways to sustain ourselves build organically, which has been beautiful. And we've been profitable since day one and we just continue to run lean, you know, and just not be wasteful and just, yeah. So it's exciting. I don't know where it's going to go. I mean, I don't know where a lot of the money is actually flowing in music tech, really. You probably know more than me, Dan. I don't pay attention to a lot of that stuff. 

[00:33:06] Dan Runcie: You're too busy building to track this stuff. 

[00:33:08] Abe Batshon: I'm busy, man. 

[00:33:09] Dan Runcie: That's my job. 

[00:33:11] Abe Batshon: Busy, dude, too busy. 

[00:33:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah. With that though, do you get more interest or offers from any of these tech companies now, because I've started to hear from a lot of the companies that rose up the same timeframe that you did that. Now, when all this money pours in, now they're getting the attention, too, and the interest, too, from these investors that wouldn't have paid attention before, but now it's much less about the initial investment. Now they're trying to either acquire and now they're trying to do a joint venture, do these things. What have those conversations been like? 

[00:33:48] Abe Batshon: It's definitely getting aggressive for sure. And I think because of where we are right now, economically, you know, investors feel like they can come in and get a good deal right now for all these startups or companies that have existed even prior to the pandemic that are still thriving through it as well. I'm seeing a lot of acquisitions happen, a lot of private equity stuff happening. And it's interesting. It's interesting. We don't need the money, Dan, in terms of like where we are financially. We're, you know, we're self sustaining. We've got a ton of money in the bank and we have our investment plan internally to kind of finish our, you know, not finish, but continue our roadmap of all the things that we dream of wanting to do and build within our goals at BeatStars. So, thank God I'm healthy. I'm feeling good. I'm in remission. I I battled cancer the last couple years during the pandemic. And you know, that was a shaky moment for me during that time. It was really up and down. I didn't know where my future was and still kind of in it, but I'm thankfully feeling really well and just energized and I'm enjoying independence, I'm enjoying independence. And I really feel that we're in a good spot to kind of push through this kind of down moment of the economy and head down and focus on our creators while everyone is just focusing on profit and revenue. And we're going to do the opposite and just build something that's going to be a utility for people for many years to come, hopefully. 

[00:35:07] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely, I mean. 

[00:35:08] Abe Batshon: They're coming though. They're throwing checks. They're, you know, they're throwing checks at us. They're making offers, but, yeah, we're just not ready right now. We're just not ready. 

[00:35:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And like you said, you have the vision for this and the amount that you've poured into it, the amount that you've gone through, as you mentioned, especially in recent years, like all that comes through with the story, and I think that is what connects with both the artists and what connects with anyone that may be interested from a business perspective. And I think you do have the control, the autonomy to make those shots when you want to, and that's the power of bootstrapping, right? We all know the trade-offs where, yeah, it can take time as you very well know. But if you're able to get through the other side, the autonomy you have. You could make decisions like you don't have to have, you know, the investors reading it out of your deck or anything else are trying to wonder why you're not pumping more Facebook and Google ads to go do this or that, right? Like, you're able to do the things on your terms and to clarify, is the ownership a hundred percent you for the company or? 

[00:36:03] Abe Batshon: No, it's not a hundred percent me. Some employees have ownership in the company. We did take a minor, a very small, minor investment from Sony music publishing when we did our joint venture together. They've been great partners. They've been awesome. And they've been helping us kind of strategize and scale our publishing business, which I believe in the last 16 months, we've had 26 Billboard 100 hits that are from our BeatStars publishing roster of creators. One of our producers has two songs on Beyoncé's new album. And I know we had Megan Thee Stallion's new single, Pressurelicious, with one of our producers, I believe, it was HitKidd with Future. So it's like, it's so cool to see that our business is touching so many different parts of the music business. It's not just the independent creator like we're powering songs, even for the major, major superstar artists, which is awesome to see. So yeah, I'm excited about the future, man. I think we're just getting started, Dan. 


[00:36:53]




Dan Runcie: Yeah. and it's always fascinating to hear how companies like yours think about the compensation and things like that for employees because with a lot of the other competitors or even others in the space, especially with the amount of money that support and people are getting, you know, equity in these companies and they are getting them because if they're VC backed, then they have an exit in the mindset and you aren't coming from that perspective. So it's always interesting to hear, okay, what are the other things you're doing? So, yeah, it sounds like you're still doing equity, I know. 

[00:37:22] Abe Batshon: Oh, I forgot to mention like there's 400 creators as well. 400 creators that invested in BeatStars when we partnered with Indiegogo back in 2016 to be one of their, actually their initial kind of equity crowdfunding launch partners. And it wasn't because we needed funds or needed money at that time. We did it because I loved the fact that our creators can actually, like, buy ownership into the company, and I can like, continue serving them, man. I can continue feeling like, you know, I have to make sure I'm reporting to these people because these are the people that keep me grounded. These are the people that keep me focused on, you know, how we impact all the other creators' lives. So yeah, we have 400 other creators from the platform that invested like $150,000 total during that campaign. So it was pretty cool to know that they're also on our ownership structure.

[00:38:11] Dan Runcie: That's great to see them on the cap table. That's great. I'd like to close this conversation out. 

[00:38:16] Abe Batshon: Hopefully, make some money at some point. 

[00:38:19] Dan Runcie: Well, I mean, that depends how some of these conversations go with these, you know, companies breathing down your back. 

[00:38:23] Abe Batshon: Exactly. 

[00:38:24] Dan Runcie: So we'll see.

[00:38:25] Abe Batshon: For sure.

[00:38:26] Dan Runcie: But I like to close this conversation out of it and talk about focus because you talked a lot about creators and how you're focused on serving them. We're talking primarily about the people who are buying beats, the people that are selling beats, and anyone involved with that production or engineering process. But for you, I know what it's like to build a company. I'm sure there's been plenty of times where not just you or some of the people you're working with are like, oh, what if you did this? What if we did that, right? But you've been able to stay focused on I'm sure, part of it was likely a function of you're building as fast as you can. Given the fact that you're bootstrapped, some of your focus is by design, but then on the other hand, now that things are starting to come in, you're starting to see the success in reaping the rewards. I'm sure there's likely some thoughts of maybe that thing that you had in the back of your mind for a few years, but now maybe it's a little bit easier to do if you're going to be, you know, hitting nine-figure payouts annually soon enough. What are some of those things, if there are, that you have on the roadmap for where things are going for other things you might be doing?

[00:39:30] Abe Batshon: Yeah, we definitely want to make some acquisitions for sure. We're exploring some of that too. We're exploring some potential acquisitions, and I think maybe we'll do our first one by the beginning of 2023. Never know. So we're definitely thinking about how can we acquire some technology or companies or communities that really would help elevate what we're doing. So definitely, definitely thinking about that. We're investing a ton in technology, man. We're, I mean our engineering team, we're probably, we'll double by next year. I think we're at like 40, 40 people on the engineering team now. So we have all of these cool projects that these engineering pods are working on and it's exciting to see. So you'll definitely start seeing a lot more innovation more frequently from BeatStars soon. We have spent, and it may look like focus, but really it's been just kind of a restrain of our technology for the last four or five years. We've been rebuilding our whole tech stack, the back end, front end, the whole thing, because, you know, we were still using legacy platform from 2008 when it was just, you know, me and our founding members of the company, Joseph Aguilar, one of our engineers, you know, building it together and we're just some kids, you know, just going crazy. We didn't think that this thing was going to scale to millions and millions of creators all over the world. So we had to kind of pivot four years ago. And we're about 95% done in terms of the full platform rebuild. And from a technology standpoint, we're competing with some of the biggest music services in the world in terms of our tech stack. Now we're prepared to really do some damage now and build on top of what we're doing and optimize our offering and also get into some different verticals as well, too. So, yeah, it's kind of like a new rebirth of BeatStars in a sense, a whole new team, a whole new technology stack, a whole new drive, and purpose. And we're building out our executive team right now, too. It's been just me in terms of executives. I was wearing all the hats, and I don't know why I was doing that. And we just hired a Head of People, Sarah Simmons, who just joined us. We have our CTO, Nader Fares. We hired Damien Ritter as our President of Label. 

[00:41:37] Dan Runcie: My guy, Dame. 

[00:41:38] Abe Batshon: Yeah, man, Dame is legend and legend to me in terms of what he's done on the independent record label front, you know, and what he's been able to do, the dude's one of the smartest guys I know. And I'm excited to have him lead the initial kind of kickoff of what a BeatStars record label can look like. Like, so many amazing artists have been discovered on BeatStars, even just from our competitions. You know, like we discovered Ali, Ali Gatie, won one of our song contests and he's got billions of streams, you know, Joyner Lucas, and Anees. Anees is an independent artist right now that's doing some amazing things, touring, you know, he's got a hit song called Sun and Moon and just killing it on TikTok and just so cool, man, just so cool to see all of these amazing artists take and utilize the platform the best way and build careers. And, yeah, so it's cool to see all these different things happen and finally bringing some like seasoned leadership to, you know, bounce things off of and build with and collaborate with. And I think I've come to a place in my career now. I feel like almost 15 years in, I can let go of some control and I think I've matured enough as an executive to now understand and articulate what the company needs and what we want in our dreams and now do it in a collaborative way with a bunch of amazing people that have the same kind of mission. So it's exciting to see what this new phase of BeatStars goes into. 

[00:42:55] Dan Runcie: Making moves. Love to hear it.

[00:42:57] Abe Batshon: Trying to, man.

[00:42:58] Dan Runcie: Hey, hey, that says that's the journey. That's the journey. Well, Abe, this has been great. Appreciate you for coming on, and before we let you go, we want to make sure that people that are listening know to find you, so where can they go to either follow you or to follow BeatStars if they want to tap in more? 

[00:43:14] Abe Batshon: Thanks, Dan. Dude, I'm some big fan of yours, like I told you before the podcast. Congratulations. Amazing to follow your journey as well. Follow BeatStars at @BeatStars, B E A T S T A R S everywhere. My personal social media shut down everywhere for the last few months. I shut it down, but I'm going to bring it back, just @AbeBatshon and excited to hear the feedback from this episode from folks listening to it. Appreciate you having me on man. 

[00:43:37] Dan Runcie: Of course, and best luck to you and best luck to you from health, most importantly, and with the business too. 

[00:43:43] Abe Batshon: Thank you, sir.

[00:43:45] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2659 no Post Malone’s Agent Breaks Down Strategy Behind His Success https://www.trapital.com/podcast Post Malone is the definition of a streaming-era superstar. He exploded onto the scene with the viral hit, “White Iverson” that was uploaded straight to SoundCloud. That was followed up with a record deal with Republic Records, four feature albums, world tours, and now he’s one of the world’s most popular artists.  My guest on Trapital this week is Cheryl Paglierani, a partner at UTA, who became Post’s agent a few short weeks after the release of “White Iverson.” The duo, along with manager Dre London, have engineered one of the fastest and most successful come-ups for an artist during the streaming era. The keyword in the last sentence is engineered because Post’s resounding success was deliberately planned out.  Cheryl prioritized live exposure early in Post’s career. “To see him was to fall in love with him,” she said, which meant getting Post in front of as many different people as quickly as possible was the key to building a fanbase with longevity.  This live strategy helped make Post a must-see attraction — whether it’s on his upcoming 33-city Twelve Carat Tour or at music festivals, including his own-created Posty Fest. For a first-hand look at Post’s enormous rise over the past seven years, you’ll want to listen to my interview with Cheryl that covers strategies on touring, social media, sponsorships, and more.  [3:15] Cheryl And Post Malone’s Joint Rise-Up [5:13] Post’s Upcoming Twelve Carat Tour  [6:44] Exposure Was Key To Post’s Early Success  [9:11] Post Malone Being Genre-Less By Design [10:32] Dynamic Between Post, Dre London, and Cheryl [12:42] Post Headline Strategy  [13:52] Factors That Influence Festival Headliners [15:50] Touring vs. Festival Shows [17:57] Main Trait Cheryl Looks For When Signing With An Artist  [21:29] Philosophy Of Artist-Branded Music Festivals  [23:07] Post Malone Brand Deal Strategy  [24:18] Correlation Between Social Media Followers & Ticket Buyers [26:01] TikTok’s Value-Add For Artists  [28:00] The Trap Of Overperforming At Nightclubs [32:03] How To Prevent Artist Burnout  [33:28] Could Virtual Experiences Help Avoid Burnout?  [34:43] Cheryl’s Personal Wishes For Post’s Career Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Cheryl Paglierani, @cherylpags     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Cheryl Paglierani: I always say, like, you need to start the build from the beginning because you're not going to want to go backwards. So I think that's where the disconnect can take place if you're not building and doing it all. Like, you have to be smart enough to strategize and say, okay, I'm going to go play the 500 cap or the thousand cap. I'm confident that I can sell it out. And when I do that, I'm going to make the club the after party. And I'm going to kill two birds with one stone, but they don't always do that. And I think that's where you see certain artists that will stream really well and have a lot of hits but have never built proper touring history fall into that trap.  [00:00:37] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:57] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Cheryl Paglierani. She is a partner at UTA where she represents some of the biggest names in music. She does booking for Post Malone, Cardi B, Chance the Rapper, 21 Savage, Offset, Flo Milli, Dominic Fike, and many more. But today's conversation. We talked a lot about her rise with Post Malone. Back in 2015, she met Post at South by Southwest after hearing his music and wanting to meet him in person. And she knew that there was the opportunity then to help develop a superstar. And since then Post Malone has grown into one of the artists that in many ways represents what's possible in streaming. Here's an artist who doesn't necessarily fit in one specific genre, but he's collaborated with so many and his music identifies and resonates with the vibe that is so relevant for today. So we talk about the journey with Post Malone. What it means for artists like him that are doing festivals versus touring and how she looks at some of the opportunities and advantages with both. We also talk more broadly about touring and how artists can make a tour off of a strength of a single, the importance of that. We talk about how she views social media, some of the pros and cons there. And so many other future trends with artists doing live performances. She shared a bunch of insights in this one, very relevant to where the industry is right now and where things are heading post-pandemic. Here's my chat with Cheryl Paglierani.  [00:02:24] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we are joined by Cheryl Paglierani, who is a partner at UTA, represents a number of big artists in hip-hop and music more broadly. But today I want to talk to you about one of the artists you've been able to see rise up the ranks and that's Post Malone, and he sticks out because I've talked to many agents over the years and so many of them talk about that dream of finding that one artist that they can rise up with. And you found that with Post Malone and it was really inspiring hearing the story of you meeting him at South by Southwest, back in 2015, but it would be great to see and hear since then. What was the moment that it hit you that, wow, we did it. The dream and the vision that I had seen back in 2015, we accomplished it and here we are, let's keep going. [00:03:15] Cheryl Paglierani: Right. You know, that's such a funny question because we all started together, right? Like, Post was essentially my first client, like, on my own. And so through rising, like, trying to pinpoint one moment, almost every moment every step of the way felt like that because you had never been there before, so take it back to just him supporting Justin Bieber. I remember being at the Madison Square Garden shows and you're hearing thousands of kids singing White Iverson, and you're looking around and you're in an arena. And even though you're not headlining that arena yet, you're thinking, wow, this is really on the right track. And then I remember on the Stoney Tour when he played in his hometown in Dallas and we played the Bomb Factory, that was a 4,000 cap room. And at that point we were like, my God, we just sold 4,000 tickets in Dallas. We're like, we're popping, right? So you feel then that feels like a really special moment. Up until, you know, we're playing two nights at The Hollywood Bowl, that felt really special. And you look like, wow. It never feels like the end, if that makes sense. It always just feels like a new height to be reached, and it just makes us more excited for what's next. Two nights at Madison Square Garden felt amazing, like, wow. Now we just sold out Madison Square Garden ourselves or AT&T Stadium was then another one of those moments. Every time we reach one, there's another one to be reached. And we're always looking forward to that and, and planning and just excited for what the next one will be 'cause that feeling just never gets old.  [00:04:33] Dan Runcie: Madison Square Garden, it was a great one because that's such an iconic venue. And I think for so many musicians, being able to sell there, being able to sell out there is huge. It's one of the biggest arenas and the most notable arenas in the country. And when looking at where a Post is now, he recently announced a tour that he has over 30 cities, whole arena tour. He's done them before. This one, I'm sure, probably felt a little bit different though, because you're booking in the middle of the pandemic. You're hearing so much, from cancellations and what venues are being available. What was it like finding space for him just given everything that happened with touring in the past few years?  [00:05:13] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I mean, well, lucky for us, like, we had been planning throughout the pandemic, right? So, you know, it's like there were certain tours where I had to rebook them and rebook them 'cause you wanted to be ready to go when tours were back. I think we had a little bit more leeway on this one for when we were planning, but it definitely got challenging with in terms of just avails. Because you're not only competing with all the other tours to be going out at this time but competing with sports and just different things that's all coming back at once. And so, I mean, that made it a little, a little bit more challenging, but also just making sure that, as we're booking, we're following all the right COVID protocols and that we're being cognizant, too, of just where people are in their lives, and how we're going to price it. And, and just trying to think of it holistically of where, not just he's at, but where the fans are at and what's going to set us up for success. And I think that we did a pretty good job. We had a very successful on sale and we're looking forward to starting in just about a month from now.  [00:06:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah. He's one artist where I see the tour go up, I'm like, I know that tour is going to sell out. There's other artists, not going to say names, but you'll see the announcement and you're like, I hope they can sell that one, but he's not one that I ever have that thought with. And I'm sure for you, obviously, you'd seen the, from the beginning, but in those early years, like, especially in the Post, White Iverson era, I'm sure there was a lot where you, Dre, him, you see the vision, but likely may want to sell and get people to see the potential of where it's going. What was it like selling at that perspective and trying to build the image when not everyone on the outside maybe was fully bought in and saw things the way that you may have seen it?  [00:06:44] Cheryl Paglierani: I mean, I can't really say that I remember selling Post ever being hard. I think it was always about how can we get him in front of the most amount of people as quick as possible because to see him was to fall in love with him. I think the second that anybody saw him live, they would always come back to me and be like, wow, this guy's the real deal. The performance was never really a factor. I mean, I think it was really just finding the right opportunities and making sure that we were strategically building him to be able to be in a position to really build the right fan base and build to longevity I think a lot of people don't know this, but Post actually supported three times before we have a headline. So he supported a DJ called SBTRKT. It was only a couple of shows, but it still, it was like EDM. It wasn't what you would expect him to be doing at that time. And then we went on tour with Fetty Wap and so that was a hip-hop tour. So he supported Fetty Wap through, through that tour. And then it went straight from Fetty Wap into Justin Bieber. So we had built a foundation that would almost touch multi-genres before he ever even went out and headlined. So I think that it was just being strategic in terms of how do we get him in, in front of not only the most people but different types of people, because he really is so eclectic. And we wanted everybody to be able to see that 'cause he really does have something to offer to everybody.  [00:07:50] Dan Runcie: That's the piece that sticks out to me the most 'cause I've had so many conversations with people and they'll ask me what type of genre do you think Post Malone is? Do you think Post Malone is hip-hop? And it's always this ambiguous question and I think that's by design. He can go and have different types of collaborators. You see it with who he's worked with. You'll see it with who's featured on his album. Can you talk a little bit more about how that piece has helped shape his career and maybe his ascension as well?  [00:08:19] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I mean, I think that, like, you just hit the nail on the head, right, in terms of who he works with. Post is going to work with artists that he's actually genuinely a fan of. I think that you'll see sometimes artists will work with people just because, oh, this is the new hot guy right now. You should go make a song with this person, or this is who everybody expects you to work with so you should go work with this person. But Post is going to work with artists like Fleet Foxes 'cause it's his favorite band ever, who I didn't even know who they were until him, so he's putting us onto them or he's going to work with artists that, that really touch and resonate with him. I think, I don't if you saw but this was record a while ago, but it kind of just started going viral. It's his video singing a Brad Paisley song, like, his videos have gone viral singing country songs, but, you know, then he can, can go make songs with, hip-hop artists. And we always laugh when we see like a headline will write hip-hop, where he gets categorized as that because he's so versatile that it, it isn't that. But to pinpoint it is difficult because he touches so much.  [00:09:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I also think that his position highlights what makes the streaming era work in a lot of ways. I've heard people refer to him as a post-streaming era artist or someone that's a symbol of what's possible now in streaming. And I was talking to a friend about this recently about, in a lot of ways, we're moving past in genres. We're moving towards moods and vibes. And I think that in a lot of ways probably captures Post Malone, but it also captures what people are looking for. You see that in how Spotify looks at playlists, right, it isn't just genres. It's moods that what you're after. And I feel like he speaks to this piece a lot.  [00:09:48] Cheryl Paglierani: Absolutely. I mean, he, he completely does. It just goes back to, I think, his love of music, right? He really loves so many different genres of music and you see that come through in his music. And I think that's why he makes music that that's so relatable to so many people.  [00:10:03] Dan Runcie: And I think a lot of this, too, is the management of leadership behind. So it's you, who's the music agent, you also have Dre London, who is his manager, and you have Post as the artist himself. And it seems as if the three of you have a very strong dynamic that's been intentional and clear about how you're growing him as an artist. Can you speak to that in the different roles that you all have beyond the obvious pieces of where you stand there, but how you all work and how that dynamic clicks together? [00:10:32] Cheryl Paglierani: No, absolutely. I mean, yeah, of course, it's like me and Dre. And Dre has become one of my best friends in the business, like a brother to me. I mean, we have like the best dynamic, of course. It's me and Dre and Post, but we have a whole team. There's Bobby who's Post’s day-to-day, and Jay who manages everything on the road, and Austin Rosen who's Post's co-manager with Dre. And I think really we've become like a family. And I think what makes us work so well is that we all have a role and a pivotal role, but everybody's role is different. And I think, like, we all trust each other to be able to handle it. It's like if you're building a house, right, you need to be able to trust that the pillars in each position are going to hold you up and prop you up. We've been able to build like this beautiful foundation, this beautiful house together, just off the foundation of our, trust for each other and, and how everybody works together. [00:11:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it seems like it because I think it's so rare that you can see all three of you really be able to work in sync because we know how many times changes happen in this industry and how many times things shift as well. And I do think that continuity is one of the things that get so underrated. There's so many aspects of music that can be a revolving door or things change quickly. But the fact that there is, in many ways, a tight unit where the three of you can work together. I honestly wish we saw more of that in the industry because I think sometimes the continuity hurts the potential of or the lack thereof hurts the potential of a lot of artists and how far they could go. [00:11:55] Cheryl Paglierani: What's also interesting, I think, Dre and I have our birthdays are a day apart, so it's almost like, even though we're so different in a lot of ways, we're actually so much alike. We can literally look at each other almost and know what the other one is thinking and not have to say a word which has become just this beautiful dynamic between us and I mean, just, you know, working with them, their whole team, I couldn't have asked to be on this journey with better people. I just feel really lucky that they let me be a part of it.  [00:12:17] Dan Runcie: No, that's special. Speaking specifically about his live performances and how he goes about things, we talked a little bit about festivals in the beginning piece, and obviously Post is headlining several festivals in the US. When people reach out or you're looking for spots now, do you even consider anything that isn't a headline slot or this point, or you're like, no, if we're not getting a headline slot, sorry.  [00:12:42] Cheryl Paglierani: No, not Post anyway. I mean, he's just a bonafide superstar at this point. I can't even really think of any acts that would make sense for him to play in front of. So for him, definitely not. For others, I mean, of course with other acts, it's really just a strategy and sometimes more about the look than necessarily the exact position. You know, you want to obviously be billed properly and be in the right slot. But for someone like at Post-level, it's a headline or it's not at all. [00:13:06] Dan Runcie: That's what I figured because sometimes I'll see for certain music festivals, again, I'm not going to say a festival or names, but you'll see people slotted in. You're like, really? Well, they must have a superstar agent that made that happen because I would think that they would be a third row or there's people that are also on that lineup that I think could have been in that headline spot instead. And I'm sure that, you know, the mechanisms of so many of those things more than anyone, and probably think a lot about that, too. What are your thoughts on that piece of it and how the artists do get chosen for headline slots? And I'm sure you sometimes may see it yourself when the festival Posters come up and you're like, okay, that makes sense, but, huh, really, that person? Interesting.  [00:13:52] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. And like, look, I think every market's different, right? A lot of it comes down to hard ticket sales usually, and I mean, when, when a promoter's booking a festival, there's two, usually, two things that they're looking at the closest and that's how many tickets have you sold in the market and how fast can you sell them? So while you might look at a lineup and scratch your head and say, how is this person headlining? It could be because it's that person's hometown or because that person's show in the market blew out, there could be a number of different reasons. But you know, there's certain artists that can blow out a show in LA that might not blow out that show in New York. Or a certain artist you might see headline in New York festival because they're from the East Coast or they're from the Northeast that would never make sense to headline in LA. So I think some of it has come down to digging a little deeper as to what's that artist's connection to the city or to the festival, to the market, what's their history, have, they done there before 'cause plays a lot into it.  [00:14:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That makes sense. Certainly, there are artists that just aren't going to work everywhere. Again, you mentioned the venues that Post Malone has sold out, whether that's his hometown, doing the stadiums, or even the arenas in other places, this isn't as much a discussion point for him. So I do think that that does play a factor. There are other times where I still do see wow, you know, great agent, you know, hats off to them. But it's fascinating though.  [00:15:03] Cheryl Paglierani: I think that sometimes, too. [00:15:05] Dan Runcie: It's fascinating though. And I think the broader growth. And as we've seen, especially the past decade-plus proliferation of music festivals has been great. And I think it's created more opportunity for the bigger artists to really decide how do you want to prioritize the opportunities. Of course, there's some artists that are strictly for the most part, only doing festivals. They may get the bigger guarantee up front, but there's a chance they may not be playing in front of as many true fans as they could have if they did their own concert. And there are plenty of pros and cons there, but I'm curious from your perspective, what's your philosophy on balancing touring versus doing the festival shows, and how do you look at it for the artists you represent? [00:15:50] Cheryl Paglierani: You hit it right on the head with the word you just used. It's a balance, right? So I think you never want to say, like, I don't believe it's ever too early to play a festival. Sometimes people are, you know, you'll hear that said, or it's too early for you to play or you need more momentum. But I think there's certain opportunities and certain festivals to be targeted when you're a new artist and through your journey. So let's say you're a new artist and you're ready to go do that 500 cap tour and you're ready to go, you know, start selling tickets at the bottom level. Yeah, you're probably not ready to then go pitch for the Coachella slot 'cause you want to be in the right position when you play a festival like Coachella or a major one, but you could still be perfect for the Thursday night at Bonnaroo. That is great for showcasing new artists. So I think you want to find that healthy balance of like, okay, what festivals can we target that might be in a market that we wouldn't necessarily go headline, but could still put us in front of a lot of bottoms in that market. And that's what I usually try to find from the ground up is, okay, what festivals are we targeting this year? What's going to be our target next year? What's your plan with the music and how are we building our headline shows around that so that we can be growing as a headline artist at the same time? And then with every artist, it's different too, right? 'cause some, it might not be you're building festivals into, headline or some artists it's going to be, it makes sense for them to find a support slot first. You might need more time to develop your show. You might need, you know, you might not have a full set that's long enough to headline. You haven't put out enough music yet. So I think every artist is different. It's just about your strategy to where the artist is at in your career. [00:17:12] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And especially with the balance piece of it, too. And I know that you represent a number of artists that are at different stages of their careers as well. Do you have any that lean more into the festival-heavy and touring light because I know that's another thing I've heard from many artists where they feel like touring is a bigger risk and they don't necessarily want to do that. They would rather do things a bit more on-demand or do things a bit more when the opportunity comes up, as opposed to having a set time to have an event where, yeah, they're doing a 500 or 2000 cap event that they go around. Are there any artists you have that lean towards that way? And how does the strategy shift at all for any of them? [00:17:57] Cheryl Paglierani: I just think it through my personal roster, I actually don't think I have anyone that's more only a festival-centric artist. I think, you know, just for me personally, too, when I'm looking at artists that I want to sign and who I want to work with, it all first and foremost starts with passion. Like, to me, I'm not really looking at streaming numbers. I'm not really looking at stats that most people would. I'm looking at do I love the music? Do I believe in the artist? And do I think that they can grow into arena selling headliner? So I'm always looking for that from the start. So it's almost like it would be very strange for me to end up with artists that only play festivals 'cause I always try to get involved, you know, very early. There's some artists I work with now that haven't been day one, but almost my whole roster has been day one and, and builds from the ground up. And even though every strategy is different, the goal is pretty much always the same in terms of how are we going to build longevity, how are we going to build a real fan base that wants to keep coming back and keep seeing you over and over again. If maybe the live show's not great from the beginning, the things that we can do to help you amplify your show, can we help with connecting with performance coaches, can we help with bringing production people into the team? Like, how can we help add value to get the artist where they need to be so that there's not a ceiling because if you've reached a point where you can only go play festivals, you've hit a ceiling. If you can sell the festival yourself or you get to that point, you want to be able to get to the point where you can book the area out yourself and, and do an open-air show and sell it all on your own. That's where you want to get to. So there's always going to be a ceiling, I feel like if you cap yourself there. And I say it's kind of similar to, like, artists that you see only play nightclubs because I think it can be hard, in the beginning, to turn down nightclub money. If you're a new artist and you come out and you have a song that's big and all of a sudden, clubs, want to throw a check at you to come play your song and three songs in a nightclub. Like, sometimes that's hard to turn down and they'll take that over, playing the small venue and trying to sell the tickets 'cause the money isn't the same. And so I think like that's just always the trap that I tell every artist avoid, avoid, avoid. You have to go build a fan base if you want longevity.  [00:19:50] Dan Runcie: Where do artists starting their own music festivals fit in this dynamic? Because Post obviously has Posty Fest. He's had it, it's a success. And obviously again, now that we're at least coming on the other side of the pandemic, where do you see that fit in with this dynamic in that balance?  [00:20:07] Cheryl Paglierani: There has to be a connection. There's so many festivals now, right? That if you're an artist and you want to start your own, you have to have probably a good amount of the draw, or I would like really advise against it. But I think that, you know, with Post and creating Posty Fest, he just had such a strong connection to Dallas and a passion for wanting to build a lineup that was multi-genre like him and, give artists an opportunity that he believes in and kind of create something where his fans could really step into his world. And we have an incredible brand team who is able to help us really turn Posty Fest into what Post world would be and bring in all of his partners. And create that without it feeling like overly branded or forced, it felt very authentic to him. And yeah, we're excited to just see how we can keep growing it. [00:20:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And especially with a festival like that, the hometown, the audience, the fan base is there. I'm curious how it's viewed from a business perspective because I've talked to some folks in the industry that feel that the artists-run festivals are almost more of a passion play project. The economics may not be necessarily better than what they could do elsewhere, but it's just actually a unique opportunity to be able to create something like that. But then others feel well, people run their own music festivals for economic gain, obviously. And if you have it there, then there is plenty of upside to be had. So how do you view it?  [00:21:29] Cheryl Paglierani: Listen, what you said is absolutely right. I think for starters, you need to start it off as a passion project because to have a festival that's profitable year one, year two, usually isn't very realistic. You have to be able to build it up. With Posty Fest, I mean, we were pretty smart about it. And like I said, his brand team and my partner, Toni Wallace absolutely killed it. We were very lucky to be able to make Posty Fest profitable. And both times that we've done it, just because Post has so much love in the brand space, but it's expensive. It's expensive to create an event like that and to book talent and you just have to be willing to make sacrifices in certain places and be willing to really put in the work to build it year after year, to get it to a place where it's going to be economically profitable. [00:22:10] Dan Runcie: You mentioned the brand piece. And I imagine for Post that's huge. Can you talk a bit about how that factored into the profitability?  [00:22:19] Cheryl Paglierani: Of course, as we're selling tickets, but, you know, every time we do a brand deal with Post, we would build Posty Fest into it. So it's like, okay, you're going to do your deal with Bud Light. Bud Light, we're going to need you to come onto Posty Fest. You're going to do your deal with, we had Nerf, we had Crocs, there was just a laundry list of all of his partners, but every time we would be doing deals, we would be building the festival into it. So come time for the festival, we had economics and, and money from all of his partners to come in and create activations for us, so it's authentic to him, but they're coming and they're creating activations and they're helping us create the experience. And that just took a huge cost off of us to have to create those things organically. [00:22:55] Dan Runcie: His brand partnership with Bud Light feels like one of the most authentic artist-brand collaborations. I can't think of anyone else. Like, so many people are like, oh, Post Malone being the ambassador for Bud Light is perfect.  [00:23:07] Cheryl Paglierani: Perfect. Like I said, he is not faking it. He really drinks Bud Light. That's his drink. And you know, he's always going to do what's authentic to himself. [00:23:14] Dan Runcie: I could imagine what the success of that. Something else that I think has been fascinating with touring has been the influence of social media. And I think there are a number of people who have strong social media followings that people couldn't actually assume that, okay, you had millions of fans that are following you on Instagram or TikTok or wherever that would then translate to those millions of people coming out and buying tickets for your show. And while there's some correlation there, I've always thought there's a bit of a disconnect to some extent because while having a large number may be great, your followers on socials may not always be the fans who are buying tickets for your show, but I know that when you're making decisions for these shows, there's all the data. There's also that instinct factor that you have when deciding who to pitch in, book where, but for you, how important is social media and the numbers or metrics you see from social media in the live performance decisions you're making, whether that's for touring or for festivals? [00:24:18] Cheryl Paglierani: It's definitely a factor, but it's by no means the factor because there are artists that have millions and millions of followers who can't sell a ticket and there's artists who can stream really well, but also can't sell a ticket. Like, there is definitely not any proof of a direct correlation between the two, but I do think that being on socials is really important. It also depends on how you are using your socials. Are you using your socials to connect with fans or are you just posting when you have to post something, right? Are you just posting a flyer to a show or you're not going on your Insta stories and talking to them, or you're not responding in the comments and they don't really feel like, for artists, I feel like we use it as a connection point. We'll see it translate more into, you know, the live side. But I haven't seen yet where I feel strongly enough that, like TikTok specifically, like if you have millions of followers on TikTok, are you going to be able to go sell out a show? That I don't think directly correlates. I think that to build yourself and start being successful in live, there has to be the live piece there. You have to have the live show, you have to have the music, you have to have the connectivity with an audience more so than just creating like cute Insta videos that are going to go viral. But it is going to be interesting to see, I think, as we're getting back into touring and more tours are going out and if that changes at all, but I haven't seen it be directly correlated just yet.  [00:25:36] Cheryl Paglierani: I'm glad  [00:25:36] Dan Runcie: you mentioned TikTok because there's been so much talk about how influential TikTok has been in the music industry. It is the place where so much music gets discovered that ends up performing well on streaming, but given the way the algorithm works, you can have tons of followers or tons of engagement proposed, but like you said, it doesn't exactly translate to having fans that are actually going to buy tickets.  [00:26:01] Cheryl Paglierani: There's no question, right? There's no question at all that TikTok has become super important to breaking new music and bringing awareness to new music, whether you're a brand new artist or your Post Malone, the label's going to try to push TikTok because that's where so many kids are. And that's how you can just make things more visible. When you talk about breaking records and stream, like, I think TikTok can really add value into the streaming side of things and just being heard. But in terms of it, like, translating over into hard ticket sales, I don't think there's a direct, I think it helps, but I don't think there's a direct correlation where you can say, oh, okay, if you have X amount of views or followers on TikTok, you're going to sell this room now. It's not realistic.  [00:26:37] Dan Runcie: And Post has talked about this too. I saw a quote from him recently that was like if I was a new artist that was being pushed to use TikTok right now, maybe there'd be a little bit of pressure to try to find a natural way to use it or even he himself wanting to find a natural way to use it. How have those discussions been? Because on one hand he already has the fan base that was there long before TikTok blew up, but there's so many established artists that are leaning into the platform now.  [00:27:03] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I mean, lucky for us, Post has an incredible creative director, Bobby, who is also his day-to-day. I'm not really involved so much in the what goes on his TikTok, but Bobby's really good at finding authentic ways, whether they're out somewhere and Post is just there doing some of capturing those moments and then helping translate them over to TikTok. But even though it wasn't around while Post was on the come out, so it's a relatively new thing. I think they're figuring out really cool ways to still have him featured on the platform, and there's been a number of videos they've put up there that have gone viral.  [00:27:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. There was something else earlier that you mentioned about streaming specifically. We talked about how there's some disconnect between social media and being able to sell tickets. But you also mentioned that there's some artists that stream well, but can't necessarily sell tickets as well. What are some common or things that can have that type of dynamic exist or that is the reason why that can happen that you've seen?  [00:28:00] Cheryl Paglierani: The nightclub situation, I think is one that can be a total killer, right? So like, there's so many artists you'll see that will come out. They'll have a song that will get really hot in a nightclub. And instead of going out and doing the work and building the fan base, they'll go take the 10, 20, 30 grand to go to the club, just play the song. It's not their real fans. It's just people that want to party. And then they'll feel like, you know, they'll get to a point where, okay, now you've had two hits. Now you've had three hits. But going backwards to start at the beginning, to really build the fan base and sell the rooms and the money you're going to make to play a 500 or a thousand cap just feels to them like a step backwards. And so they hit that ceiling. I always say, like, you need to start the build from the beginning because you're not going to want to go backwards. So I think that's where the disconnect can take place if you're not building and doing it all. Like, you have to be smart enough to strategize and say, okay, I'm going to go play the 500 cap or the thousand cap. I'm confident that I can sell it out. And when I do that, I'm going to make the club the after party. And I'm going to kill two birds with one stone, but they don't always do that. And I think that's where you see certain artists that will stream really well and have a lot of hits but have never built proper touring history fall into that trap. [00:29:07] Dan Runcie: That lines up with something else I've heard you say, which lines up with how artists now can build a tour off of a song or off of a single that does really well. And you don't necessarily have to always rely on going after the short bag or trying to do the short-term things. No, if you have the single that works, you can build on that. Can you speak a little bit more about that?  [00:29:30] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I think like when you're a true artist, like, I remember when we first started building out Dominic Fike's first tour and his EP was incredible. He had a real fan base. We had no doubt that the shows were going to sell. But I think the whole thing was under 30 minutes. Like it was almost going to be a struggle to get a show to where, you know, you want to be at least a 45-minute set if you're going to headline. But having the creativity that, okay, I'm going to throw in a couple of covers that are unexpected so that I can stretch this out and really go, build from the ground up and do that tour, and that's what they did. They figured out a way to make the show entertaining and interesting and with the band and to fill that time, even though it was only one project and, you know, 3 Nights was a big radio hit for him. We were able to still get out there and, and do that tour and start building it the right way with him as a headliner from the start. [00:30:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's great. I mean, I think, now, especially just because there are so many hits where you can clearly tell that, okay, I don't know if that one's really going to last, but other times he'll hear hit, be like, no, you can truly build something off of this. And that's what I think is unique about this era. And that's what I think is unique to see artists like Post and others as well who've literally been able to say, okay, I have the awareness. I have the exposure. How could we continue to build on whether you're taking your time for whether it's the album or the launch, whatever it is. There are so many unique ways to be able to continue to just build momentum and build the fan base today. And I think that's one of the more exciting things about where the industry is right now.  [00:30:55] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah, absolutely. Shout to Dre and to Post, we talked about this a lot in the beginning because of course when White Iverson came out, we were getting all the clubs that were reaching out and me and Dre were totally aligned and on the same page of like, that's not what we're going to do and we're going to build this the right way. And here we are.  [00:31:11] Dan Runcie: For sure. And I'm sure part of this, too, with the artists you represent is that so much of the booking and so much of the time can be reflective of just them feeling burnt out, right? Maybe burnout isn't as much of a piece on the touring side, at least for Post, just given the fact that you're touring in arenas now. He's not necessarily doing 200-plus arena shows a year, but there are other artists that are doing nightclubs or doing smaller venues that are doing that clip or potentially even. How is it with some of the artists who that clearly is the phase that they are in their career, but there's just so much more awareness right now in this industry of how do we prevent burnout, how do we support the artists without having them be on the grind that, I think, in many ways became so standard for artists in the industry?  [00:32:03] Cheryl Paglierani: Absolutely. I mean, I think that's actually really important. And I always, personally, when I'm putting together a routing or I'm thinking about what are we doing, I try to put myself in the artist's shoes and think would I be able to handle this? Could I play four nights in a row? Like, am I going to get burnt out if there's not a day off after this many shows in a row? We think about that a lot with Post 'cause even though you're not playing 200 arena shows a year, even playing two nights in an arena back to back and be really exhausting, and that's going to take a toll on him and on his voice and on his body. And I think, like, if you're an artist and you're getting up on stage and you're giving it your all. That's going to wear you out. So, it's always something that we're thinking about when we're routing of, like, okay, let's not make sure that we got this amount of time. We're going to fit this amount of shows in. We're going to make sure that there's a proper amount of days off. And I'm always thinking about that when I'm routing as to how is this going to physically be on the artist because that's first and foremost is keeping them healthy and keeping them wanting to do it. We never want an artist to start feeling like, oh, this is just too much. I can't take it. So we try to make it as comfortable as possible.  [00:33:03] Dan Runcie: Do these VR and metaverse experiences help with this to some extent? I know he recently had the VR experience for his project, the Twelve Carat Toothache, and I know that he had had the Pokémon collaboration that he had recently. Do these types of things help a bit? Because there obviously is less travel and you could still reach an audience and potentially a growing audience based on the way things are heading.  [00:33:28] Cheryl Paglierani: Absolutely. I mean, I don't think it helps per se in a sort of like taking anything off the touring side 'cause the touring's still going to be there, but those opportunities are just easier to pull off because you can do them in LA or like he did the Nirvana live stream from his house in Utah, things like that, where through the pandemic and we were able to still stay out there in a real way without having to go anywhere. So that definitely helps when there is something like that that can be done and adds so much value to your album rollout and just be really cool and really different. The VR experience, I mean, they built out different sets almost for every single, so like that was a full two-day production to film all of that. So it was still a lot of work, but it was again, staying in one place made it easy to pull off.  [00:34:09] Dan Runcie: So five years from now, when Post is still headline status and is booking all the top festivals and touring around the world. What do you think shifts? Because obviously so much has shifted in the industry since White Iverson came out, streaming and all of the other types of opportunities for artists to go direct with their fans or anything else has expanded as well. And we'll continue to see more evolution on that front. What do you think will change specifically in the live performance or, more broadly, how Post and some of your other artists may go about it?  [00:34:43] Cheryl Paglierani: What do I think is going to shift? I mean, I hope that one day with Post and you say, what will change, well, he's always been a one-man show. He's never played with the band. It's always him. And he gets up there and he kills it. I kind of hope that in the future we're seeing him, he might hear this and say, why would you say that? But my personal wish, I hope that like one day we see the show shift into him playing with a full band or maybe playing, you know, everyone always says to me, when's Post making a folk album? When's Post making a country album? I almost hope that maybe we see him shift and actually take a stab at a different genre completely. And just do something that's completely unexpected. Does that happen? I don't know, but it could be a shift. And I also think he has the potential and will reach stadium status. I hope somewhere in the next five years we maybe see. Like, we're able to go into baseball stadiums or something of the sort. Maybe it's not a full tour, these are just like my aspirations and my, my goals and what I want to see, whether, you know, that aligns with him, we have to discuss, but I think those are a few shifts that could be really interesting and cool. [00:35:39] Dan Runcie: Well, Cheryl, this has been great. I think that there's just so much that's happening in this space and I'm excited for you. I'm excited for Post and all the other artists you represent, but before we let you go, is there anything else that you'd like to plug or let the capital audience know about? [00:35:57] Cheryl Paglierani: Anything else I want to plug? I probably should have something for that, but nothing comes to mind. I'm not much of a self-promoter. I don't know what I have to plug. [00:36:04] Dan Runcie: Or where people can find you if they want to follow you. [00:36:07] Cheryl Paglierani: People can find me on Instagram. I'm just @cherylpags.  [00:36:10] Dan Runcie: Okay. And then big things coming up for Post, obviously, we mentioned the tour, a few festivals coming up as well.  [00:36:17] Cheryl Paglierani: I don't know if you saw, but we also announced we'll be doing stadiums in Australia with the Red Hot Chili Peppers in January. So we're really excited for that also.  [00:36:24] Dan Runcie: Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. Another collab that makes a bunch of sense. All right. Well, Cheryl, this has been great. It's a pleasure. Thanks again for coming on.  [00:36:32] Cheryl Paglierani: Thank you so much for having me. [00:36:34] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 12 Aug 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Post Malone’s Agent Breaks Down Strategy Behind His Success full Dan Runcie Post Malone is the definition of a streaming-era superstar. He exploded onto the scene with the viral hit, “White Iverson” that was uploaded straight to SoundCloud. That was followed up with a record deal with Republic Records, four feature albums, world tours, and now he’s one of the world’s most popular artists.  My guest on Trapital this week is Cheryl Paglierani, a partner at UTA, who became Post’s agent a few short weeks after the release of “White Iverson.” The duo, along with manager Dre London, have engineered one of the fastest and most successful come-ups for an artist during the streaming era. The keyword in the last sentence is engineered because Post’s resounding success was deliberately planned out.  Cheryl prioritized live exposure early in Post’s career. “To see him was to fall in love with him,” she said, which meant getting Post in front of as many different people as quickly as possible was the key to building a fanbase with longevity.  This live strategy helped make Post a must-see attraction — whether it’s on his upcoming 33-city Twelve Carat Tour or at music festivals, including his own-created Posty Fest. For a first-hand look at Post’s enormous rise over the past seven years, you’ll want to listen to my interview with Cheryl that covers strategies on touring, social media, sponsorships, and more.  [3:15] Cheryl And Post Malone’s Joint Rise-Up [5:13] Post’s Upcoming Twelve Carat Tour  [6:44] Exposure Was Key To Post’s Early Success  [9:11] Post Malone Being Genre-Less By Design [10:32] Dynamic Between Post, Dre London, and Cheryl [12:42] Post Headline Strategy  [13:52] Factors That Influence Festival Headliners [15:50] Touring vs. Festival Shows [17:57] Main Trait Cheryl Looks For When Signing With An Artist  [21:29] Philosophy Of Artist-Branded Music Festivals  [23:07] Post Malone Brand Deal Strategy  [24:18] Correlation Between Social Media Followers & Ticket Buyers [26:01] TikTok’s Value-Add For Artists  [28:00] The Trap Of Overperforming At Nightclubs [32:03] How To Prevent Artist Burnout  [33:28] Could Virtual Experiences Help Avoid Burnout?  [34:43] Cheryl’s Personal Wishes For Post’s Career Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Cheryl Paglierani, @cherylpags     Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Cheryl Paglierani: I always say, like, you need to start the build from the beginning because you're not going to want to go backwards. So I think that's where the disconnect can take place if you're not building and doing it all. Like, you have to be smart enough to strategize and say, okay, I'm going to go play the 500 cap or the thousand cap. I'm confident that I can sell it out. And when I do that, I'm going to make the club the after party. And I'm going to kill two birds with one stone, but they don't always do that. And I think that's where you see certain artists that will stream really well and have a lot of hits but have never built proper touring history fall into that trap.  [00:00:37] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:57] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Cheryl Paglierani. She is a partner at UTA where she represents some of the biggest names in music. She does booking for Post Malone, Cardi B, Chance the Rapper, 21 Savage, Offset, Flo Milli, Dominic Fike, and many more. But today's conversation. We talked a lot about her rise with Post Malone. Back in 2015, she met Post at South by Southwest after hearing his music and wanting to meet him in person. And she knew that there was the opportunity then to help develop a superstar. And since then Post Malone has grown into one of the artists that in many ways represents what's possible in streaming. Here's an artist who doesn't necessarily fit in one specific genre, but he's collaborated with so many and his music identifies and resonates with the vibe that is so relevant for today. So we talk about the journey with Post Malone. What it means for artists like him that are doing festivals versus touring and how she looks at some of the opportunities and advantages with both. We also talk more broadly about touring and how artists can make a tour off of a strength of a single, the importance of that. We talk about how she views social media, some of the pros and cons there. And so many other future trends with artists doing live performances. She shared a bunch of insights in this one, very relevant to where the industry is right now and where things are heading post-pandemic. Here's my chat with Cheryl Paglierani.  [00:02:24] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we are joined by Cheryl Paglierani, who is a partner at UTA, represents a number of big artists in hip-hop and music more broadly. But today I want to talk to you about one of the artists you've been able to see rise up the ranks and that's Post Malone, and he sticks out because I've talked to many agents over the years and so many of them talk about that dream of finding that one artist that they can rise up with. And you found that with Post Malone and it was really inspiring hearing the story of you meeting him at South by Southwest, back in 2015, but it would be great to see and hear since then. What was the moment that it hit you that, wow, we did it. The dream and the vision that I had seen back in 2015, we accomplished it and here we are, let's keep going. [00:03:15] Cheryl Paglierani: Right. You know, that's such a funny question because we all started together, right? Like, Post was essentially my first client, like, on my own. And so through rising, like, trying to pinpoint one moment, almost every moment every step of the way felt like that because you had never been there before, so take it back to just him supporting Justin Bieber. I remember being at the Madison Square Garden shows and you're hearing thousands of kids singing White Iverson, and you're looking around and you're in an arena. And even though you're not headlining that arena yet, you're thinking, wow, this is really on the right track. And then I remember on the Stoney Tour when he played in his hometown in Dallas and we played the Bomb Factory, that was a 4,000 cap room. And at that point we were like, my God, we just sold 4,000 tickets in Dallas. We're like, we're popping, right? So you feel then that feels like a really special moment. Up until, you know, we're playing two nights at The Hollywood Bowl, that felt really special. And you look like, wow. It never feels like the end, if that makes sense. It always just feels like a new height to be reached, and it just makes us more excited for what's next. Two nights at Madison Square Garden felt amazing, like, wow. Now we just sold out Madison Square Garden ourselves or AT&T Stadium was then another one of those moments. Every time we reach one, there's another one to be reached. And we're always looking forward to that and, and planning and just excited for what the next one will be 'cause that feeling just never gets old.  [00:04:33] Dan Runcie: Madison Square Garden, it was a great one because that's such an iconic venue. And I think for so many musicians, being able to sell there, being able to sell out there is huge. It's one of the biggest arenas and the most notable arenas in the country. And when looking at where a Post is now, he recently announced a tour that he has over 30 cities, whole arena tour. He's done them before. This one, I'm sure, probably felt a little bit different though, because you're booking in the middle of the pandemic. You're hearing so much, from cancellations and what venues are being available. What was it like finding space for him just given everything that happened with touring in the past few years?  [00:05:13] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I mean, well, lucky for us, like, we had been planning throughout the pandemic, right? So, you know, it's like there were certain tours where I had to rebook them and rebook them 'cause you wanted to be ready to go when tours were back. I think we had a little bit more leeway on this one for when we were planning, but it definitely got challenging with in terms of just avails. Because you're not only competing with all the other tours to be going out at this time but competing with sports and just different things that's all coming back at once. And so, I mean, that made it a little, a little bit more challenging, but also just making sure that, as we're booking, we're following all the right COVID protocols and that we're being cognizant, too, of just where people are in their lives, and how we're going to price it. And, and just trying to think of it holistically of where, not just he's at, but where the fans are at and what's going to set us up for success. And I think that we did a pretty good job. We had a very successful on sale and we're looking forward to starting in just about a month from now.  [00:06:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah. He's one artist where I see the tour go up, I'm like, I know that tour is going to sell out. There's other artists, not going to say names, but you'll see the announcement and you're like, I hope they can sell that one, but he's not one that I ever have that thought with. And I'm sure for you, obviously, you'd seen the, from the beginning, but in those early years, like, especially in the Post, White Iverson era, I'm sure there was a lot where you, Dre, him, you see the vision, but likely may want to sell and get people to see the potential of where it's going. What was it like selling at that perspective and trying to build the image when not everyone on the outside maybe was fully bought in and saw things the way that you may have seen it?  [00:06:44] Cheryl Paglierani: I mean, I can't really say that I remember selling Post ever being hard. I think it was always about how can we get him in front of the most amount of people as quick as possible because to see him was to fall in love with him. I think the second that anybody saw him live, they would always come back to me and be like, wow, this guy's the real deal. The performance was never really a factor. I mean, I think it was really just finding the right opportunities and making sure that we were strategically building him to be able to be in a position to really build the right fan base and build to longevity I think a lot of people don't know this, but Post actually supported three times before we have a headline. So he supported a DJ called SBTRKT. It was only a couple of shows, but it still, it was like EDM. It wasn't what you would expect him to be doing at that time. And then we went on tour with Fetty Wap and so that was a hip-hop tour. So he supported Fetty Wap through, through that tour. And then it went straight from Fetty Wap into Justin Bieber. So we had built a foundation that would almost touch multi-genres before he ever even went out and headlined. So I think that it was just being strategic in terms of how do we get him in, in front of not only the most people but different types of people, because he really is so eclectic. And we wanted everybody to be able to see that 'cause he really does have something to offer to everybody.  [00:07:50] Dan Runcie: That's the piece that sticks out to me the most 'cause I've had so many conversations with people and they'll ask me what type of genre do you think Post Malone is? Do you think Post Malone is hip-hop? And it's always this ambiguous question and I think that's by design. He can go and have different types of collaborators. You see it with who he's worked with. You'll see it with who's featured on his album. Can you talk a little bit more about how that piece has helped shape his career and maybe his ascension as well?  [00:08:19] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I mean, I think that, like, you just hit the nail on the head, right, in terms of who he works with. Post is going to work with artists that he's actually genuinely a fan of. I think that you'll see sometimes artists will work with people just because, oh, this is the new hot guy right now. You should go make a song with this person, or this is who everybody expects you to work with so you should go work with this person. But Post is going to work with artists like Fleet Foxes 'cause it's his favorite band ever, who I didn't even know who they were until him, so he's putting us onto them or he's going to work with artists that, that really touch and resonate with him. I think, I don't if you saw but this was record a while ago, but it kind of just started going viral. It's his video singing a Brad Paisley song, like, his videos have gone viral singing country songs, but, you know, then he can, can go make songs with, hip-hop artists. And we always laugh when we see like a headline will write hip-hop, where he gets categorized as that because he's so versatile that it, it isn't that. But to pinpoint it is difficult because he touches so much.  [00:09:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I also think that his position highlights what makes the streaming era work in a lot of ways. I've heard people refer to him as a post-streaming era artist or someone that's a symbol of what's possible now in streaming. And I was talking to a friend about this recently about, in a lot of ways, we're moving past in genres. We're moving towards moods and vibes. And I think that in a lot of ways probably captures Post Malone, but it also captures what people are looking for. You see that in how Spotify looks at playlists, right, it isn't just genres. It's moods that what you're after. And I feel like he speaks to this piece a lot.  [00:09:48] Cheryl Paglierani: Absolutely. I mean, he, he completely does. It just goes back to, I think, his love of music, right? He really loves so many different genres of music and you see that come through in his music. And I think that's why he makes music that that's so relatable to so many people.  [00:10:03] Dan Runcie: And I think a lot of this, too, is the management of leadership behind. So it's you, who's the music agent, you also have Dre London, who is his manager, and you have Post as the artist himself. And it seems as if the three of you have a very strong dynamic that's been intentional and clear about how you're growing him as an artist. Can you speak to that in the different roles that you all have beyond the obvious pieces of where you stand there, but how you all work and how that dynamic clicks together? [00:10:32] Cheryl Paglierani: No, absolutely. I mean, yeah, of course, it's like me and Dre. And Dre has become one of my best friends in the business, like a brother to me. I mean, we have like the best dynamic, of course. It's me and Dre and Post, but we have a whole team. There's Bobby who's Post’s day-to-day, and Jay who manages everything on the road, and Austin Rosen who's Post's co-manager with Dre. And I think really we've become like a family. And I think what makes us work so well is that we all have a role and a pivotal role, but everybody's role is different. And I think, like, we all trust each other to be able to handle it. It's like if you're building a house, right, you need to be able to trust that the pillars in each position are going to hold you up and prop you up. We've been able to build like this beautiful foundation, this beautiful house together, just off the foundation of our, trust for each other and, and how everybody works together. [00:11:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it seems like it because I think it's so rare that you can see all three of you really be able to work in sync because we know how many times changes happen in this industry and how many times things shift as well. And I do think that continuity is one of the things that get so underrated. There's so many aspects of music that can be a revolving door or things change quickly. But the fact that there is, in many ways, a tight unit where the three of you can work together. I honestly wish we saw more of that in the industry because I think sometimes the continuity hurts the potential of or the lack thereof hurts the potential of a lot of artists and how far they could go. [00:11:55] Cheryl Paglierani: What's also interesting, I think, Dre and I have our birthdays are a day apart, so it's almost like, even though we're so different in a lot of ways, we're actually so much alike. We can literally look at each other almost and know what the other one is thinking and not have to say a word which has become just this beautiful dynamic between us and I mean, just, you know, working with them, their whole team, I couldn't have asked to be on this journey with better people. I just feel really lucky that they let me be a part of it.  [00:12:17] Dan Runcie: No, that's special. Speaking specifically about his live performances and how he goes about things, we talked a little bit about festivals in the beginning piece, and obviously Post is headlining several festivals in the US. When people reach out or you're looking for spots now, do you even consider anything that isn't a headline slot or this point, or you're like, no, if we're not getting a headline slot, sorry.  [00:12:42] Cheryl Paglierani: No, not Post anyway. I mean, he's just a bonafide superstar at this point. I can't even really think of any acts that would make sense for him to play in front of. So for him, definitely not. For others, I mean, of course with other acts, it's really just a strategy and sometimes more about the look than necessarily the exact position. You know, you want to obviously be billed properly and be in the right slot. But for someone like at Post-level, it's a headline or it's not at all. [00:13:06] Dan Runcie: That's what I figured because sometimes I'll see for certain music festivals, again, I'm not going to say a festival or names, but you'll see people slotted in. You're like, really? Well, they must have a superstar agent that made that happen because I would think that they would be a third row or there's people that are also on that lineup that I think could have been in that headline spot instead. And I'm sure that, you know, the mechanisms of so many of those things more than anyone, and probably think a lot about that, too. What are your thoughts on that piece of it and how the artists do get chosen for headline slots? And I'm sure you sometimes may see it yourself when the festival Posters come up and you're like, okay, that makes sense, but, huh, really, that person? Interesting.  [00:13:52] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. And like, look, I think every market's different, right? A lot of it comes down to hard ticket sales usually, and I mean, when, when a promoter's booking a festival, there's two, usually, two things that they're looking at the closest and that's how many tickets have you sold in the market and how fast can you sell them? So while you might look at a lineup and scratch your head and say, how is this person headlining? It could be because it's that person's hometown or because that person's show in the market blew out, there could be a number of different reasons. But you know, there's certain artists that can blow out a show in LA that might not blow out that show in New York. Or a certain artist you might see headline in New York festival because they're from the East Coast or they're from the Northeast that would never make sense to headline in LA. So I think some of it has come down to digging a little deeper as to what's that artist's connection to the city or to the festival, to the market, what's their history, have, they done there before 'cause plays a lot into it.  [00:14:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That makes sense. Certainly, there are artists that just aren't going to work everywhere. Again, you mentioned the venues that Post Malone has sold out, whether that's his hometown, doing the stadiums, or even the arenas in other places, this isn't as much a discussion point for him. So I do think that that does play a factor. There are other times where I still do see wow, you know, great agent, you know, hats off to them. But it's fascinating though.  [00:15:03] Cheryl Paglierani: I think that sometimes, too. [00:15:05] Dan Runcie: It's fascinating though. And I think the broader growth. And as we've seen, especially the past decade-plus proliferation of music festivals has been great. And I think it's created more opportunity for the bigger artists to really decide how do you want to prioritize the opportunities. Of course, there's some artists that are strictly for the most part, only doing festivals. They may get the bigger guarantee up front, but there's a chance they may not be playing in front of as many true fans as they could have if they did their own concert. And there are plenty of pros and cons there, but I'm curious from your perspective, what's your philosophy on balancing touring versus doing the festival shows, and how do you look at it for the artists you represent? [00:15:50] Cheryl Paglierani: You hit it right on the head with the word you just used. It's a balance, right? So I think you never want to say, like, I don't believe it's ever too early to play a festival. Sometimes people are, you know, you'll hear that said, or it's too early for you to play or you need more momentum. But I think there's certain opportunities and certain festivals to be targeted when you're a new artist and through your journey. So let's say you're a new artist and you're ready to go do that 500 cap tour and you're ready to go, you know, start selling tickets at the bottom level. Yeah, you're probably not ready to then go pitch for the Coachella slot 'cause you want to be in the right position when you play a festival like Coachella or a major one, but you could still be perfect for the Thursday night at Bonnaroo. That is great for showcasing new artists. So I think you want to find that healthy balance of like, okay, what festivals can we target that might be in a market that we wouldn't necessarily go headline, but could still put us in front of a lot of bottoms in that market. And that's what I usually try to find from the ground up is, okay, what festivals are we targeting this year? What's going to be our target next year? What's your plan with the music and how are we building our headline shows around that so that we can be growing as a headline artist at the same time? And then with every artist, it's different too, right? 'cause some, it might not be you're building festivals into, headline or some artists it's going to be, it makes sense for them to find a support slot first. You might need more time to develop your show. You might need, you know, you might not have a full set that's long enough to headline. You haven't put out enough music yet. So I think every artist is different. It's just about your strategy to where the artist is at in your career. [00:17:12] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And especially with the balance piece of it, too. And I know that you represent a number of artists that are at different stages of their careers as well. Do you have any that lean more into the festival-heavy and touring light because I know that's another thing I've heard from many artists where they feel like touring is a bigger risk and they don't necessarily want to do that. They would rather do things a bit more on-demand or do things a bit more when the opportunity comes up, as opposed to having a set time to have an event where, yeah, they're doing a 500 or 2000 cap event that they go around. Are there any artists you have that lean towards that way? And how does the strategy shift at all for any of them? [00:17:57] Cheryl Paglierani: I just think it through my personal roster, I actually don't think I have anyone that's more only a festival-centric artist. I think, you know, just for me personally, too, when I'm looking at artists that I want to sign and who I want to work with, it all first and foremost starts with passion. Like, to me, I'm not really looking at streaming numbers. I'm not really looking at stats that most people would. I'm looking at do I love the music? Do I believe in the artist? And do I think that they can grow into arena selling headliner? So I'm always looking for that from the start. So it's almost like it would be very strange for me to end up with artists that only play festivals 'cause I always try to get involved, you know, very early. There's some artists I work with now that haven't been day one, but almost my whole roster has been day one and, and builds from the ground up. And even though every strategy is different, the goal is pretty much always the same in terms of how are we going to build longevity, how are we going to build a real fan base that wants to keep coming back and keep seeing you over and over again. If maybe the live show's not great from the beginning, the things that we can do to help you amplify your show, can we help with connecting with performance coaches, can we help with bringing production people into the team? Like, how can we help add value to get the artist where they need to be so that there's not a ceiling because if you've reached a point where you can only go play festivals, you've hit a ceiling. If you can sell the festival yourself or you get to that point, you want to be able to get to the point where you can book the area out yourself and, and do an open-air show and sell it all on your own. That's where you want to get to. So there's always going to be a ceiling, I feel like if you cap yourself there. And I say it's kind of similar to, like, artists that you see only play nightclubs because I think it can be hard, in the beginning, to turn down nightclub money. If you're a new artist and you come out and you have a song that's big and all of a sudden, clubs, want to throw a check at you to come play your song and three songs in a nightclub. Like, sometimes that's hard to turn down and they'll take that over, playing the small venue and trying to sell the tickets 'cause the money isn't the same. And so I think like that's just always the trap that I tell every artist avoid, avoid, avoid. You have to go build a fan base if you want longevity.  [00:19:50] Dan Runcie: Where do artists starting their own music festivals fit in this dynamic? Because Post obviously has Posty Fest. He's had it, it's a success. And obviously again, now that we're at least coming on the other side of the pandemic, where do you see that fit in with this dynamic in that balance?  [00:20:07] Cheryl Paglierani: There has to be a connection. There's so many festivals now, right? That if you're an artist and you want to start your own, you have to have probably a good amount of the draw, or I would like really advise against it. But I think that, you know, with Post and creating Posty Fest, he just had such a strong connection to Dallas and a passion for wanting to build a lineup that was multi-genre like him and, give artists an opportunity that he believes in and kind of create something where his fans could really step into his world. And we have an incredible brand team who is able to help us really turn Posty Fest into what Post world would be and bring in all of his partners. And create that without it feeling like overly branded or forced, it felt very authentic to him. And yeah, we're excited to just see how we can keep growing it. [00:20:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And especially with a festival like that, the hometown, the audience, the fan base is there. I'm curious how it's viewed from a business perspective because I've talked to some folks in the industry that feel that the artists-run festivals are almost more of a passion play project. The economics may not be necessarily better than what they could do elsewhere, but it's just actually a unique opportunity to be able to create something like that. But then others feel well, people run their own music festivals for economic gain, obviously. And if you have it there, then there is plenty of upside to be had. So how do you view it?  [00:21:29] Cheryl Paglierani: Listen, what you said is absolutely right. I think for starters, you need to start it off as a passion project because to have a festival that's profitable year one, year two, usually isn't very realistic. You have to be able to build it up. With Posty Fest, I mean, we were pretty smart about it. And like I said, his brand team and my partner, Toni Wallace absolutely killed it. We were very lucky to be able to make Posty Fest profitable. And both times that we've done it, just because Post has so much love in the brand space, but it's expensive. It's expensive to create an event like that and to book talent and you just have to be willing to make sacrifices in certain places and be willing to really put in the work to build it year after year, to get it to a place where it's going to be economically profitable. [00:22:10] Dan Runcie: You mentioned the brand piece. And I imagine for Post that's huge. Can you talk a bit about how that factored into the profitability?  [00:22:19] Cheryl Paglierani: Of course, as we're selling tickets, but, you know, every time we do a brand deal with Post, we would build Posty Fest into it. So it's like, okay, you're going to do your deal with Bud Light. Bud Light, we're going to need you to come onto Posty Fest. You're going to do your deal with, we had Nerf, we had Crocs, there was just a laundry list of all of his partners, but every time we would be doing deals, we would be building the festival into it. So come time for the festival, we had economics and, and money from all of his partners to come in and create activations for us, so it's authentic to him, but they're coming and they're creating activations and they're helping us create the experience. And that just took a huge cost off of us to have to create those things organically. [00:22:55] Dan Runcie: His brand partnership with Bud Light feels like one of the most authentic artist-brand collaborations. I can't think of anyone else. Like, so many people are like, oh, Post Malone being the ambassador for Bud Light is perfect.  [00:23:07] Cheryl Paglierani: Perfect. Like I said, he is not faking it. He really drinks Bud Light. That's his drink. And you know, he's always going to do what's authentic to himself. [00:23:14] Dan Runcie: I could imagine what the success of that. Something else that I think has been fascinating with touring has been the influence of social media. And I think there are a number of people who have strong social media followings that people couldn't actually assume that, okay, you had millions of fans that are following you on Instagram or TikTok or wherever that would then translate to those millions of people coming out and buying tickets for your show. And while there's some correlation there, I've always thought there's a bit of a disconnect to some extent because while having a large number may be great, your followers on socials may not always be the fans who are buying tickets for your show, but I know that when you're making decisions for these shows, there's all the data. There's also that instinct factor that you have when deciding who to pitch in, book where, but for you, how important is social media and the numbers or metrics you see from social media in the live performance decisions you're making, whether that's for touring or for festivals? [00:24:18] Cheryl Paglierani: It's definitely a factor, but it's by no means the factor because there are artists that have millions and millions of followers who can't sell a ticket and there's artists who can stream really well, but also can't sell a ticket. Like, there is definitely not any proof of a direct correlation between the two, but I do think that being on socials is really important. It also depends on how you are using your socials. Are you using your socials to connect with fans or are you just posting when you have to post something, right? Are you just posting a flyer to a show or you're not going on your Insta stories and talking to them, or you're not responding in the comments and they don't really feel like, for artists, I feel like we use it as a connection point. We'll see it translate more into, you know, the live side. But I haven't seen yet where I feel strongly enough that, like TikTok specifically, like if you have millions of followers on TikTok, are you going to be able to go sell out a show? That I don't think directly correlates. I think that to build yourself and start being successful in live, there has to be the live piece there. You have to have the live show, you have to have the music, you have to have the connectivity with an audience more so than just creating like cute Insta videos that are going to go viral. But it is going to be interesting to see, I think, as we're getting back into touring and more tours are going out and if that changes at all, but I haven't seen it be directly correlated just yet.  [00:25:36] Cheryl Paglierani: I'm glad  [00:25:36] Dan Runcie: you mentioned TikTok because there's been so much talk about how influential TikTok has been in the music industry. It is the place where so much music gets discovered that ends up performing well on streaming, but given the way the algorithm works, you can have tons of followers or tons of engagement proposed, but like you said, it doesn't exactly translate to having fans that are actually going to buy tickets.  [00:26:01] Cheryl Paglierani: There's no question, right? There's no question at all that TikTok has become super important to breaking new music and bringing awareness to new music, whether you're a brand new artist or your Post Malone, the label's going to try to push TikTok because that's where so many kids are. And that's how you can just make things more visible. When you talk about breaking records and stream, like, I think TikTok can really add value into the streaming side of things and just being heard. But in terms of it, like, translating over into hard ticket sales, I don't think there's a direct, I think it helps, but I don't think there's a direct correlation where you can say, oh, okay, if you have X amount of views or followers on TikTok, you're going to sell this room now. It's not realistic.  [00:26:37] Dan Runcie: And Post has talked about this too. I saw a quote from him recently that was like if I was a new artist that was being pushed to use TikTok right now, maybe there'd be a little bit of pressure to try to find a natural way to use it or even he himself wanting to find a natural way to use it. How have those discussions been? Because on one hand he already has the fan base that was there long before TikTok blew up, but there's so many established artists that are leaning into the platform now.  [00:27:03] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I mean, lucky for us, Post has an incredible creative director, Bobby, who is also his day-to-day. I'm not really involved so much in the what goes on his TikTok, but Bobby's really good at finding authentic ways, whether they're out somewhere and Post is just there doing some of capturing those moments and then helping translate them over to TikTok. But even though it wasn't around while Post was on the come out, so it's a relatively new thing. I think they're figuring out really cool ways to still have him featured on the platform, and there's been a number of videos they've put up there that have gone viral.  [00:27:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. There was something else earlier that you mentioned about streaming specifically. We talked about how there's some disconnect between social media and being able to sell tickets. But you also mentioned that there's some artists that stream well, but can't necessarily sell tickets as well. What are some common or things that can have that type of dynamic exist or that is the reason why that can happen that you've seen?  [00:28:00] Cheryl Paglierani: The nightclub situation, I think is one that can be a total killer, right? So like, there's so many artists you'll see that will come out. They'll have a song that will get really hot in a nightclub. And instead of going out and doing the work and building the fan base, they'll go take the 10, 20, 30 grand to go to the club, just play the song. It's not their real fans. It's just people that want to party. And then they'll feel like, you know, they'll get to a point where, okay, now you've had two hits. Now you've had three hits. But going backwards to start at the beginning, to really build the fan base and sell the rooms and the money you're going to make to play a 500 or a thousand cap just feels to them like a step backwards. And so they hit that ceiling. I always say, like, you need to start the build from the beginning because you're not going to want to go backwards. So I think that's where the disconnect can take place if you're not building and doing it all. Like, you have to be smart enough to strategize and say, okay, I'm going to go play the 500 cap or the thousand cap. I'm confident that I can sell it out. And when I do that, I'm going to make the club the after party. And I'm going to kill two birds with one stone, but they don't always do that. And I think that's where you see certain artists that will stream really well and have a lot of hits but have never built proper touring history fall into that trap. [00:29:07] Dan Runcie: That lines up with something else I've heard you say, which lines up with how artists now can build a tour off of a song or off of a single that does really well. And you don't necessarily have to always rely on going after the short bag or trying to do the short-term things. No, if you have the single that works, you can build on that. Can you speak a little bit more about that?  [00:29:30] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I think like when you're a true artist, like, I remember when we first started building out Dominic Fike's first tour and his EP was incredible. He had a real fan base. We had no doubt that the shows were going to sell. But I think the whole thing was under 30 minutes. Like it was almost going to be a struggle to get a show to where, you know, you want to be at least a 45-minute set if you're going to headline. But having the creativity that, okay, I'm going to throw in a couple of covers that are unexpected so that I can stretch this out and really go, build from the ground up and do that tour, and that's what they did. They figured out a way to make the show entertaining and interesting and with the band and to fill that time, even though it was only one project and, you know, 3 Nights was a big radio hit for him. We were able to still get out there and, and do that tour and start building it the right way with him as a headliner from the start. [00:30:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's great. I mean, I think, now, especially just because there are so many hits where you can clearly tell that, okay, I don't know if that one's really going to last, but other times he'll hear hit, be like, no, you can truly build something off of this. And that's what I think is unique about this era. And that's what I think is unique to see artists like Post and others as well who've literally been able to say, okay, I have the awareness. I have the exposure. How could we continue to build on whether you're taking your time for whether it's the album or the launch, whatever it is. There are so many unique ways to be able to continue to just build momentum and build the fan base today. And I think that's one of the more exciting things about where the industry is right now.  [00:30:55] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah, absolutely. Shout to Dre and to Post, we talked about this a lot in the beginning because of course when White Iverson came out, we were getting all the clubs that were reaching out and me and Dre were totally aligned and on the same page of like, that's not what we're going to do and we're going to build this the right way. And here we are.  [00:31:11] Dan Runcie: For sure. And I'm sure part of this, too, with the artists you represent is that so much of the booking and so much of the time can be reflective of just them feeling burnt out, right? Maybe burnout isn't as much of a piece on the touring side, at least for Post, just given the fact that you're touring in arenas now. He's not necessarily doing 200-plus arena shows a year, but there are other artists that are doing nightclubs or doing smaller venues that are doing that clip or potentially even. How is it with some of the artists who that clearly is the phase that they are in their career, but there's just so much more awareness right now in this industry of how do we prevent burnout, how do we support the artists without having them be on the grind that, I think, in many ways became so standard for artists in the industry?  [00:32:03] Cheryl Paglierani: Absolutely. I mean, I think that's actually really important. And I always, personally, when I'm putting together a routing or I'm thinking about what are we doing, I try to put myself in the artist's shoes and think would I be able to handle this? Could I play four nights in a row? Like, am I going to get burnt out if there's not a day off after this many shows in a row? We think about that a lot with Post 'cause even though you're not playing 200 arena shows a year, even playing two nights in an arena back to back and be really exhausting, and that's going to take a toll on him and on his voice and on his body. And I think, like, if you're an artist and you're getting up on stage and you're giving it your all. That's going to wear you out. So, it's always something that we're thinking about when we're routing of, like, okay, let's not make sure that we got this amount of time. We're going to fit this amount of shows in. We're going to make sure that there's a proper amount of days off. And I'm always thinking about that when I'm routing as to how is this going to physically be on the artist because that's first and foremost is keeping them healthy and keeping them wanting to do it. We never want an artist to start feeling like, oh, this is just too much. I can't take it. So we try to make it as comfortable as possible.  [00:33:03] Dan Runcie: Do these VR and metaverse experiences help with this to some extent? I know he recently had the VR experience for his project, the Twelve Carat Toothache, and I know that he had had the Pokémon collaboration that he had recently. Do these types of things help a bit? Because there obviously is less travel and you could still reach an audience and potentially a growing audience based on the way things are heading.  [00:33:28] Cheryl Paglierani: Absolutely. I mean, I don't think it helps per se in a sort of like taking anything off the touring side 'cause the touring's still going to be there, but those opportunities are just easier to pull off because you can do them in LA or like he did the Nirvana live stream from his house in Utah, things like that, where through the pandemic and we were able to still stay out there in a real way without having to go anywhere. So that definitely helps when there is something like that that can be done and adds so much value to your album rollout and just be really cool and really different. The VR experience, I mean, they built out different sets almost for every single, so like that was a full two-day production to film all of that. So it was still a lot of work, but it was again, staying in one place made it easy to pull off.  [00:34:09] Dan Runcie: So five years from now, when Post is still headline status and is booking all the top festivals and touring around the world. What do you think shifts? Because obviously so much has shifted in the industry since White Iverson came out, streaming and all of the other types of opportunities for artists to go direct with their fans or anything else has expanded as well. And we'll continue to see more evolution on that front. What do you think will change specifically in the live performance or, more broadly, how Post and some of your other artists may go about it?  [00:34:43] Cheryl Paglierani: What do I think is going to shift? I mean, I hope that one day with Post and you say, what will change, well, he's always been a one-man show. He's never played with the band. It's always him. And he gets up there and he kills it. I kind of hope that in the future we're seeing him, he might hear this and say, why would you say that? But my personal wish, I hope that like one day we see the show shift into him playing with a full band or maybe playing, you know, everyone always says to me, when's Post making a folk album? When's Post making a country album? I almost hope that maybe we see him shift and actually take a stab at a different genre completely. And just do something that's completely unexpected. Does that happen? I don't know, but it could be a shift. And I also think he has the potential and will reach stadium status. I hope somewhere in the next five years we maybe see. Like, we're able to go into baseball stadiums or something of the sort. Maybe it's not a full tour, these are just like my aspirations and my, my goals and what I want to see, whether, you know, that aligns with him, we have to discuss, but I think those are a few shifts that could be really interesting and cool. [00:35:39] Dan Runcie: Well, Cheryl, this has been great. I think that there's just so much that's happening in this space and I'm excited for you. I'm excited for Post and all the other artists you represent, but before we let you go, is there anything else that you'd like to plug or let the capital audience know about? [00:35:57] Cheryl Paglierani: Anything else I want to plug? I probably should have something for that, but nothing comes to mind. I'm not much of a self-promoter. I don't know what I have to plug. [00:36:04] Dan Runcie: Or where people can find you if they want to follow you. [00:36:07] Cheryl Paglierani: People can find me on Instagram. I'm just @cherylpags.  [00:36:10] Dan Runcie: Okay. And then big things coming up for Post, obviously, we mentioned the tour, a few festivals coming up as well.  [00:36:17] Cheryl Paglierani: I don't know if you saw, but we also announced we'll be doing stadiums in Australia with the Red Hot Chili Peppers in January. So we're really excited for that also.  [00:36:24] Dan Runcie: Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. Another collab that makes a bunch of sense. All right. Well, Cheryl, this has been great. It's a pleasure. Thanks again for coming on.  [00:36:32] Cheryl Paglierani: Thank you so much for having me. [00:36:34] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Post Malone is the definition of a streaming-era superstar. He exploded onto the scene with the viral hit, “White Iverson” that was uploaded straight to SoundCloud. That was followed up with a record deal with Republic Records, four feature albums, world tours, and now he’s one of the world’s most popular artists. 


My guest on Trapital this week is Cheryl Paglierani, a partner at UTA, who became Post’s agent a few short weeks after the release of “White Iverson.” The duo, along with manager Dre London, have engineered one of the fastest and most successful come-ups for an artist during the streaming era. The keyword in the last sentence is engineered because Post’s resounding success was deliberately planned out. 


Cheryl prioritized live exposure early in Post’s career. “To see him was to fall in love with him,” she said, which meant getting Post in front of as many different people as quickly as possible was the key to building a fanbase with longevity. 


This live strategy helped make Post a must-see attraction — whether it’s on his upcoming 33-city Twelve Carat Tour or at music festivals, including his own-created Posty Fest. For a first-hand look at Post’s enormous rise over the past seven years, you’ll want to listen to my interview with Cheryl that covers strategies on touring, social media, sponsorships, and more. 


[3:15] Cheryl And Post Malone’s Joint Rise-Up

[5:13] Post’s Upcoming Twelve Carat Tour 

[6:44] Exposure Was Key To Post’s Early Success 

[9:11] Post Malone Being Genre-Less By Design

[10:32] Dynamic Between Post, Dre London, and Cheryl

[12:42] Post Headline Strategy 

[13:52] Factors That Influence Festival Headliners

[15:50] Touring vs. Festival Shows

[17:57] Main Trait Cheryl Looks For When Signing With An Artist 

[21:29] Philosophy Of Artist-Branded Music Festivals 

[23:07] Post Malone Brand Deal Strategy 

[24:18] Correlation Between Social Media Followers & Ticket Buyers

[26:01] TikTok’s Value-Add For Artists 

[28:00] The Trap Of Overperforming At Nightclubs

[32:03] How To Prevent Artist Burnout 

[33:28] Could Virtual Experiences Help Avoid Burnout? 

[34:43] Cheryl’s Personal Wishes For Post’s Career



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Cheryl Paglierani, @cherylpags

 

 

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TRANSCRIPTION


[00:00:00] Cheryl Paglierani: I always say, like, you need to start the build from the beginning because you're not going to want to go backwards. So I think that's where the disconnect can take place if you're not building and doing it all. Like, you have to be smart enough to strategize and say, okay, I'm going to go play the 500 cap or the thousand cap. I'm confident that I can sell it out. And when I do that, I'm going to make the club the after party. And I'm going to kill two birds with one stone, but they don't always do that. And I think that's where you see certain artists that will stream really well and have a lot of hits but have never built proper touring history fall into that trap. 

[00:00:37] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 


[00:00:57] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Cheryl Paglierani. She is a partner at UTA where she represents some of the biggest names in music. She does booking for Post Malone, Cardi B, Chance the Rapper, 21 Savage, Offset, Flo Milli, Dominic Fike, and many more. But today's conversation. We talked a lot about her rise with Post Malone. Back in 2015, she met Post at South by Southwest after hearing his music and wanting to meet him in person. And she knew that there was the opportunity then to help develop a superstar. And since then Post Malone has grown into one of the artists that in many ways represents what's possible in streaming. Here's an artist who doesn't necessarily fit in one specific genre, but he's collaborated with so many and his music identifies and resonates with the vibe that is so relevant for today. So we talk about the journey with Post Malone. What it means for artists like him that are doing festivals versus touring and how she looks at some of the opportunities and advantages with both. We also talk more broadly about touring and how artists can make a tour off of a strength of a single, the importance of that. We talk about how she views social media, some of the pros and cons there. And so many other future trends with artists doing live performances. She shared a bunch of insights in this one, very relevant to where the industry is right now and where things are heading post-pandemic. Here's my chat with Cheryl Paglierani. 

[00:02:24] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we are joined by Cheryl Paglierani, who is a partner at UTA, represents a number of big artists in hip-hop and music more broadly. But today I want to talk to you about one of the artists you've been able to see rise up the ranks and that's Post Malone, and he sticks out because I've talked to many agents over the years and so many of them talk about that dream of finding that one artist that they can rise up with. And you found that with Post Malone and it was really inspiring hearing the story of you meeting him at South by Southwest, back in 2015, but it would be great to see and hear since then. What was the moment that it hit you that, wow, we did it. The dream and the vision that I had seen back in 2015, we accomplished it and here we are, let's keep going.

[00:03:15] Cheryl Paglierani: Right. You know, that's such a funny question because we all started together, right? Like, Post was essentially my first client, like, on my own. And so through rising, like, trying to pinpoint one moment, almost every moment every step of the way felt like that because you had never been there before, so take it back to just him supporting Justin Bieber. I remember being at the Madison Square Garden shows and you're hearing thousands of kids singing White Iverson, and you're looking around and you're in an arena. And even though you're not headlining that arena yet, you're thinking, wow, this is really on the right track. And then I remember on the Stoney Tour when he played in his hometown in Dallas and we played the Bomb Factory, that was a 4,000 cap room. And at that point we were like, my God, we just sold 4,000 tickets in Dallas. We're like, we're popping, right? So you feel then that feels like a really special moment. Up until, you know, we're playing two nights at The Hollywood Bowl, that felt really special. And you look like, wow. It never feels like the end, if that makes sense. It always just feels like a new height to be reached, and it just makes us more excited for what's next. Two nights at Madison Square Garden felt amazing, like, wow. Now we just sold out Madison Square Garden ourselves or AT&T Stadium was then another one of those moments. Every time we reach one, there's another one to be reached. And we're always looking forward to that and, and planning and just excited for what the next one will be 'cause that feeling just never gets old. 

[00:04:33] Dan Runcie: Madison Square Garden, it was a great one because that's such an iconic venue. And I think for so many musicians, being able to sell there, being able to sell out there is huge. It's one of the biggest arenas and the most notable arenas in the country. And when looking at where a Post is now, he recently announced a tour that he has over 30 cities, whole arena tour. He's done them before. This one, I'm sure, probably felt a little bit different though, because you're booking in the middle of the pandemic. You're hearing so much, from cancellations and what venues are being available. What was it like finding space for him just given everything that happened with touring in the past few years? 

[00:05:13] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I mean, well, lucky for us, like, we had been planning throughout the pandemic, right? So, you know, it's like there were certain tours where I had to rebook them and rebook them 'cause you wanted to be ready to go when tours were back. I think we had a little bit more leeway on this one for when we were planning, but it definitely got challenging with in terms of just avails. Because you're not only competing with all the other tours to be going out at this time but competing with sports and just different things that's all coming back at once. And so, I mean, that made it a little, a little bit more challenging, but also just making sure that, as we're booking, we're following all the right COVID protocols and that we're being cognizant, too, of just where people are in their lives, and how we're going to price it. And, and just trying to think of it holistically of where, not just he's at, but where the fans are at and what's going to set us up for success. And I think that we did a pretty good job. We had a very successful on sale and we're looking forward to starting in just about a month from now. 

[00:06:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah. He's one artist where I see the tour go up, I'm like, I know that tour is going to sell out. There's other artists, not going to say names, but you'll see the announcement and you're like, I hope they can sell that one, but he's not one that I ever have that thought with. And I'm sure for you, obviously, you'd seen the, from the beginning, but in those early years, like, especially in the Post, White Iverson era, I'm sure there was a lot where you, Dre, him, you see the vision, but likely may want to sell and get people to see the potential of where it's going. What was it like selling at that perspective and trying to build the image when not everyone on the outside maybe was fully bought in and saw things the way that you may have seen it? 

[00:06:44] Cheryl Paglierani: I mean, I can't really say that I remember selling Post ever being hard. I think it was always about how can we get him in front of the most amount of people as quick as possible because to see him was to fall in love with him. I think the second that anybody saw him live, they would always come back to me and be like, wow, this guy's the real deal. The performance was never really a factor. I mean, I think it was really just finding the right opportunities and making sure that we were strategically building him to be able to be in a position to really build the right fan base and build to longevity I think a lot of people don't know this, but Post actually supported three times before we have a headline. So he supported a DJ called SBTRKT. It was only a couple of shows, but it still, it was like EDM. It wasn't what you would expect him to be doing at that time. And then we went on tour with Fetty Wap and so that was a hip-hop tour. So he supported Fetty Wap through, through that tour. And then it went straight from Fetty Wap into Justin Bieber. So we had built a foundation that would almost touch multi-genres before he ever even went out and headlined. So I think that it was just being strategic in terms of how do we get him in, in front of not only the most people but different types of people, because he really is so eclectic. And we wanted everybody to be able to see that 'cause he really does have something to offer to everybody. 

[00:07:50] Dan Runcie: That's the piece that sticks out to me the most 'cause I've had so many conversations with people and they'll ask me what type of genre do you think Post Malone is? Do you think Post Malone is hip-hop? And it's always this ambiguous question and I think that's by design. He can go and have different types of collaborators. You see it with who he's worked with. You'll see it with who's featured on his album. Can you talk a little bit more about how that piece has helped shape his career and maybe his ascension as well? 

[00:08:19] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I mean, I think that, like, you just hit the nail on the head, right, in terms of who he works with. Post is going to work with artists that he's actually genuinely a fan of. I think that you'll see sometimes artists will work with people just because, oh, this is the new hot guy right now. You should go make a song with this person, or this is who everybody expects you to work with so you should go work with this person. But Post is going to work with artists like Fleet Foxes 'cause it's his favorite band ever, who I didn't even know who they were until him, so he's putting us onto them or he's going to work with artists that, that really touch and resonate with him. I think, I don't if you saw but this was record a while ago, but it kind of just started going viral. It's his video singing a Brad Paisley song, like, his videos have gone viral singing country songs, but, you know, then he can, can go make songs with, hip-hop artists. And we always laugh when we see like a headline will write hip-hop, where he gets categorized as that because he's so versatile that it, it isn't that. But to pinpoint it is difficult because he touches so much. 

[00:09:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I also think that his position highlights what makes the streaming era work in a lot of ways. I've heard people refer to him as a post-streaming era artist or someone that's a symbol of what's possible now in streaming. And I was talking to a friend about this recently about, in a lot of ways, we're moving past in genres. We're moving towards moods and vibes. And I think that in a lot of ways probably captures Post Malone, but it also captures what people are looking for. You see that in how Spotify looks at playlists, right, it isn't just genres. It's moods that what you're after. And I feel like he speaks to this piece a lot. 

[00:09:48] Cheryl Paglierani: Absolutely. I mean, he, he completely does. It just goes back to, I think, his love of music, right? He really loves so many different genres of music and you see that come through in his music. And I think that's why he makes music that that's so relatable to so many people. 

[00:10:03] Dan Runcie: And I think a lot of this, too, is the management of leadership behind. So it's you, who's the music agent, you also have Dre London, who is his manager, and you have Post as the artist himself. And it seems as if the three of you have a very strong dynamic that's been intentional and clear about how you're growing him as an artist. Can you speak to that in the different roles that you all have beyond the obvious pieces of where you stand there, but how you all work and how that dynamic clicks together?

[00:10:32] Cheryl Paglierani: No, absolutely. I mean, yeah, of course, it's like me and Dre. And Dre has become one of my best friends in the business, like a brother to me. I mean, we have like the best dynamic, of course. It's me and Dre and Post, but we have a whole team. There's Bobby who's Post’s day-to-day, and Jay who manages everything on the road, and Austin Rosen who's Post's co-manager with Dre. And I think really we've become like a family. And I think what makes us work so well is that we all have a role and a pivotal role, but everybody's role is different. And I think, like, we all trust each other to be able to handle it. It's like if you're building a house, right, you need to be able to trust that the pillars in each position are going to hold you up and prop you up. We've been able to build like this beautiful foundation, this beautiful house together, just off the foundation of our, trust for each other and, and how everybody works together.

[00:11:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it seems like it because I think it's so rare that you can see all three of you really be able to work in sync because we know how many times changes happen in this industry and how many times things shift as well. And I do think that continuity is one of the things that get so underrated. There's so many aspects of music that can be a revolving door or things change quickly. But the fact that there is, in many ways, a tight unit where the three of you can work together. I honestly wish we saw more of that in the industry because I think sometimes the continuity hurts the potential of or the lack thereof hurts the potential of a lot of artists and how far they could go.

[00:11:55] Cheryl Paglierani: What's also interesting, I think, Dre and I have our birthdays are a day apart, so it's almost like, even though we're so different in a lot of ways, we're actually so much alike. We can literally look at each other almost and know what the other one is thinking and not have to say a word which has become just this beautiful dynamic between us and I mean, just, you know, working with them, their whole team, I couldn't have asked to be on this journey with better people. I just feel really lucky that they let me be a part of it. 

[00:12:17] Dan Runcie: No, that's special. Speaking specifically about his live performances and how he goes about things, we talked a little bit about festivals in the beginning piece, and obviously Post is headlining several festivals in the US. When people reach out or you're looking for spots now, do you even consider anything that isn't a headline slot or this point, or you're like, no, if we're not getting a headline slot, sorry. 

[00:12:42] Cheryl Paglierani: No, not Post anyway. I mean, he's just a bonafide superstar at this point. I can't even really think of any acts that would make sense for him to play in front of. So for him, definitely not. For others, I mean, of course with other acts, it's really just a strategy and sometimes more about the look than necessarily the exact position. You know, you want to obviously be billed properly and be in the right slot. But for someone like at Post-level, it's a headline or it's not at all.

[00:13:06] Dan Runcie: That's what I figured because sometimes I'll see for certain music festivals, again, I'm not going to say a festival or names, but you'll see people slotted in. You're like, really? Well, they must have a superstar agent that made that happen because I would think that they would be a third row or there's people that are also on that lineup that I think could have been in that headline spot instead. And I'm sure that, you know, the mechanisms of so many of those things more than anyone, and probably think a lot about that, too. What are your thoughts on that piece of it and how the artists do get chosen for headline slots? And I'm sure you sometimes may see it yourself when the festival Posters come up and you're like, okay, that makes sense, but, huh, really, that person? Interesting. 

[00:13:52] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. And like, look, I think every market's different, right? A lot of it comes down to hard ticket sales usually, and I mean, when, when a promoter's booking a festival, there's two, usually, two things that they're looking at the closest and that's how many tickets have you sold in the market and how fast can you sell them? So while you might look at a lineup and scratch your head and say, how is this person headlining? It could be because it's that person's hometown or because that person's show in the market blew out, there could be a number of different reasons. But you know, there's certain artists that can blow out a show in LA that might not blow out that show in New York. Or a certain artist you might see headline in New York festival because they're from the East Coast or they're from the Northeast that would never make sense to headline in LA. So I think some of it has come down to digging a little deeper as to what's that artist's connection to the city or to the festival, to the market, what's their history, have, they done there before 'cause plays a lot into it. 

[00:14:38] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That makes sense. Certainly, there are artists that just aren't going to work everywhere. Again, you mentioned the venues that Post Malone has sold out, whether that's his hometown, doing the stadiums, or even the arenas in other places, this isn't as much a discussion point for him. So I do think that that does play a factor. There are other times where I still do see wow, you know, great agent, you know, hats off to them. But it's fascinating though. 

[00:15:03] Cheryl Paglierani: I think that sometimes, too.

[00:15:05] Dan Runcie: It's fascinating though. And I think the broader growth. And as we've seen, especially the past decade-plus proliferation of music festivals has been great. And I think it's created more opportunity for the bigger artists to really decide how do you want to prioritize the opportunities. Of course, there's some artists that are strictly for the most part, only doing festivals. They may get the bigger guarantee up front, but there's a chance they may not be playing in front of as many true fans as they could have if they did their own concert. And there are plenty of pros and cons there, but I'm curious from your perspective, what's your philosophy on balancing touring versus doing the festival shows, and how do you look at it for the artists you represent?

[00:15:50] Cheryl Paglierani: You hit it right on the head with the word you just used. It's a balance, right? So I think you never want to say, like, I don't believe it's ever too early to play a festival. Sometimes people are, you know, you'll hear that said, or it's too early for you to play or you need more momentum. But I think there's certain opportunities and certain festivals to be targeted when you're a new artist and through your journey. So let's say you're a new artist and you're ready to go do that 500 cap tour and you're ready to go, you know, start selling tickets at the bottom level. Yeah, you're probably not ready to then go pitch for the Coachella slot 'cause you want to be in the right position when you play a festival like Coachella or a major one, but you could still be perfect for the Thursday night at Bonnaroo. That is great for showcasing new artists. So I think you want to find that healthy balance of like, okay, what festivals can we target that might be in a market that we wouldn't necessarily go headline, but could still put us in front of a lot of bottoms in that market. And that's what I usually try to find from the ground up is, okay, what festivals are we targeting this year? What's going to be our target next year? What's your plan with the music and how are we building our headline shows around that so that we can be growing as a headline artist at the same time? And then with every artist, it's different too, right? 'cause some, it might not be you're building festivals into, headline or some artists it's going to be, it makes sense for them to find a support slot first. You might need more time to develop your show. You might need, you know, you might not have a full set that's long enough to headline. You haven't put out enough music yet. So I think every artist is different. It's just about your strategy to where the artist is at in your career.

[00:17:12] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And especially with the balance piece of it, too. And I know that you represent a number of artists that are at different stages of their careers as well. Do you have any that lean more into the festival-heavy and touring light because I know that's another thing I've heard from many artists where they feel like touring is a bigger risk and they don't necessarily want to do that. They would rather do things a bit more on-demand or do things a bit more when the opportunity comes up, as opposed to having a set time to have an event where, yeah, they're doing a 500 or 2000 cap event that they go around. Are there any artists you have that lean towards that way? And how does the strategy shift at all for any of them?

[00:17:57] Cheryl Paglierani: I just think it through my personal roster, I actually don't think I have anyone that's more only a festival-centric artist. I think, you know, just for me personally, too, when I'm looking at artists that I want to sign and who I want to work with, it all first and foremost starts with passion. Like, to me, I'm not really looking at streaming numbers. I'm not really looking at stats that most people would. I'm looking at do I love the music? Do I believe in the artist? And do I think that they can grow into arena selling headliner? So I'm always looking for that from the start. So it's almost like it would be very strange for me to end up with artists that only play festivals 'cause I always try to get involved, you know, very early. There's some artists I work with now that haven't been day one, but almost my whole roster has been day one and, and builds from the ground up. And even though every strategy is different, the goal is pretty much always the same in terms of how are we going to build longevity, how are we going to build a real fan base that wants to keep coming back and keep seeing you over and over again. If maybe the live show's not great from the beginning, the things that we can do to help you amplify your show, can we help with connecting with performance coaches, can we help with bringing production people into the team? Like, how can we help add value to get the artist where they need to be so that there's not a ceiling because if you've reached a point where you can only go play festivals, you've hit a ceiling. If you can sell the festival yourself or you get to that point, you want to be able to get to the point where you can book the area out yourself and, and do an open-air show and sell it all on your own. That's where you want to get to. So there's always going to be a ceiling, I feel like if you cap yourself there. And I say it's kind of similar to, like, artists that you see only play nightclubs because I think it can be hard, in the beginning, to turn down nightclub money. If you're a new artist and you come out and you have a song that's big and all of a sudden, clubs, want to throw a check at you to come play your song and three songs in a nightclub. Like, sometimes that's hard to turn down and they'll take that over, playing the small venue and trying to sell the tickets 'cause the money isn't the same. And so I think like that's just always the trap that I tell every artist avoid, avoid, avoid. You have to go build a fan base if you want longevity. 

[00:19:50] Dan Runcie: Where do artists starting their own music festivals fit in this dynamic? Because Post obviously has Posty Fest. He's had it, it's a success. And obviously again, now that we're at least coming on the other side of the pandemic, where do you see that fit in with this dynamic in that balance? 

[00:20:07] Cheryl Paglierani: There has to be a connection. There's so many festivals now, right? That if you're an artist and you want to start your own, you have to have probably a good amount of the draw, or I would like really advise against it. But I think that, you know, with Post and creating Posty Fest, he just had such a strong connection to Dallas and a passion for wanting to build a lineup that was multi-genre like him and, give artists an opportunity that he believes in and kind of create something where his fans could really step into his world. And we have an incredible brand team who is able to help us really turn Posty Fest into what Post world would be and bring in all of his partners. And create that without it feeling like overly branded or forced, it felt very authentic to him. And yeah, we're excited to just see how we can keep growing it.

[00:20:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And especially with a festival like that, the hometown, the audience, the fan base is there. I'm curious how it's viewed from a business perspective because I've talked to some folks in the industry that feel that the artists-run festivals are almost more of a passion play project. The economics may not be necessarily better than what they could do elsewhere, but it's just actually a unique opportunity to be able to create something like that. But then others feel well, people run their own music festivals for economic gain, obviously. And if you have it there, then there is plenty of upside to be had. So how do you view it? 

[00:21:29] Cheryl Paglierani: Listen, what you said is absolutely right. I think for starters, you need to start it off as a passion project because to have a festival that's profitable year one, year two, usually isn't very realistic. You have to be able to build it up. With Posty Fest, I mean, we were pretty smart about it. And like I said, his brand team and my partner, Toni Wallace absolutely killed it. We were very lucky to be able to make Posty Fest profitable. And both times that we've done it, just because Post has so much love in the brand space, but it's expensive. It's expensive to create an event like that and to book talent and you just have to be willing to make sacrifices in certain places and be willing to really put in the work to build it year after year, to get it to a place where it's going to be economically profitable.

[00:22:10] Dan Runcie: You mentioned the brand piece. And I imagine for Post that's huge. Can you talk a bit about how that factored into the profitability? 

[00:22:19] Cheryl Paglierani: Of course, as we're selling tickets, but, you know, every time we do a brand deal with Post, we would build Posty Fest into it. So it's like, okay, you're going to do your deal with Bud Light. Bud Light, we're going to need you to come onto Posty Fest. You're going to do your deal with, we had Nerf, we had Crocs, there was just a laundry list of all of his partners, but every time we would be doing deals, we would be building the festival into it. So come time for the festival, we had economics and, and money from all of his partners to come in and create activations for us, so it's authentic to him, but they're coming and they're creating activations and they're helping us create the experience. And that just took a huge cost off of us to have to create those things organically.

[00:22:55] Dan Runcie: His brand partnership with Bud Light feels like one of the most authentic artist-brand collaborations. I can't think of anyone else. Like, so many people are like, oh, Post Malone being the ambassador for Bud Light is perfect. 

[00:23:07] Cheryl Paglierani: Perfect. Like I said, he is not faking it. He really drinks Bud Light. That's his drink. And you know, he's always going to do what's authentic to himself.

[00:23:14] Dan Runcie: I could imagine what the success of that. Something else that I think has been fascinating with touring has been the influence of social media. And I think there are a number of people who have strong social media followings that people couldn't actually assume that, okay, you had millions of fans that are following you on Instagram or TikTok or wherever that would then translate to those millions of people coming out and buying tickets for your show. And while there's some correlation there, I've always thought there's a bit of a disconnect to some extent because while having a large number may be great, your followers on socials may not always be the fans who are buying tickets for your show, but I know that when you're making decisions for these shows, there's all the data. There's also that instinct factor that you have when deciding who to pitch in, book where, but for you, how important is social media and the numbers or metrics you see from social media in the live performance decisions you're making, whether that's for touring or for festivals?

[00:24:18] Cheryl Paglierani: It's definitely a factor, but it's by no means the factor because there are artists that have millions and millions of followers who can't sell a ticket and there's artists who can stream really well, but also can't sell a ticket. Like, there is definitely not any proof of a direct correlation between the two, but I do think that being on socials is really important. It also depends on how you are using your socials. Are you using your socials to connect with fans or are you just posting when you have to post something, right? Are you just posting a flyer to a show or you're not going on your Insta stories and talking to them, or you're not responding in the comments and they don't really feel like, for artists, I feel like we use it as a connection point. We'll see it translate more into, you know, the live side. But I haven't seen yet where I feel strongly enough that, like TikTok specifically, like if you have millions of followers on TikTok, are you going to be able to go sell out a show? That I don't think directly correlates. I think that to build yourself and start being successful in live, there has to be the live piece there. You have to have the live show, you have to have the music, you have to have the connectivity with an audience more so than just creating like cute Insta videos that are going to go viral. But it is going to be interesting to see, I think, as we're getting back into touring and more tours are going out and if that changes at all, but I haven't seen it be directly correlated just yet. 

[00:25:36] Cheryl Paglierani: I'm glad 

[00:25:36] Dan Runcie: you mentioned TikTok because there's been so much talk about how influential TikTok has been in the music industry. It is the place where so much music gets discovered that ends up performing well on streaming, but given the way the algorithm works, you can have tons of followers or tons of engagement proposed, but like you said, it doesn't exactly translate to having fans that are actually going to buy tickets. 

[00:26:01] Cheryl Paglierani: There's no question, right? There's no question at all that TikTok has become super important to breaking new music and bringing awareness to new music, whether you're a brand new artist or your Post Malone, the label's going to try to push TikTok because that's where so many kids are. And that's how you can just make things more visible. When you talk about breaking records and stream, like, I think TikTok can really add value into the streaming side of things and just being heard. But in terms of it, like, translating over into hard ticket sales, I don't think there's a direct, I think it helps, but I don't think there's a direct correlation where you can say, oh, okay, if you have X amount of views or followers on TikTok, you're going to sell this room now. It's not realistic. 

[00:26:37] Dan Runcie: And Post has talked about this too. I saw a quote from him recently that was like if I was a new artist that was being pushed to use TikTok right now, maybe there'd be a little bit of pressure to try to find a natural way to use it or even he himself wanting to find a natural way to use it. How have those discussions been? Because on one hand he already has the fan base that was there long before TikTok blew up, but there's so many established artists that are leaning into the platform now. 

[00:27:03] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I mean, lucky for us, Post has an incredible creative director, Bobby, who is also his day-to-day. I'm not really involved so much in the what goes on his TikTok, but Bobby's really good at finding authentic ways, whether they're out somewhere and Post is just there doing some of capturing those moments and then helping translate them over to TikTok. But even though it wasn't around while Post was on the come out, so it's a relatively new thing. I think they're figuring out really cool ways to still have him featured on the platform, and there's been a number of videos they've put up there that have gone viral. 

[00:27:34] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. There was something else earlier that you mentioned about streaming specifically. We talked about how there's some disconnect between social media and being able to sell tickets. But you also mentioned that there's some artists that stream well, but can't necessarily sell tickets as well. What are some common or things that can have that type of dynamic exist or that is the reason why that can happen that you've seen? 

[00:28:00] Cheryl Paglierani: The nightclub situation, I think is one that can be a total killer, right? So like, there's so many artists you'll see that will come out. They'll have a song that will get really hot in a nightclub. And instead of going out and doing the work and building the fan base, they'll go take the 10, 20, 30 grand to go to the club, just play the song. It's not their real fans. It's just people that want to party. And then they'll feel like, you know, they'll get to a point where, okay, now you've had two hits. Now you've had three hits. But going backwards to start at the beginning, to really build the fan base and sell the rooms and the money you're going to make to play a 500 or a thousand cap just feels to them like a step backwards. And so they hit that ceiling. I always say, like, you need to start the build from the beginning because you're not going to want to go backwards. So I think that's where the disconnect can take place if you're not building and doing it all. Like, you have to be smart enough to strategize and say, okay, I'm going to go play the 500 cap or the thousand cap. I'm confident that I can sell it out. And when I do that, I'm going to make the club the after party. And I'm going to kill two birds with one stone, but they don't always do that. And I think that's where you see certain artists that will stream really well and have a lot of hits but have never built proper touring history fall into that trap.

[00:29:07] Dan Runcie: That lines up with something else I've heard you say, which lines up with how artists now can build a tour off of a song or off of a single that does really well. And you don't necessarily have to always rely on going after the short bag or trying to do the short-term things. No, if you have the single that works, you can build on that. Can you speak a little bit more about that? 

[00:29:30] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah. I think like when you're a true artist, like, I remember when we first started building out Dominic Fike's first tour and his EP was incredible. He had a real fan base. We had no doubt that the shows were going to sell. But I think the whole thing was under 30 minutes. Like it was almost going to be a struggle to get a show to where, you know, you want to be at least a 45-minute set if you're going to headline. But having the creativity that, okay, I'm going to throw in a couple of covers that are unexpected so that I can stretch this out and really go, build from the ground up and do that tour, and that's what they did. They figured out a way to make the show entertaining and interesting and with the band and to fill that time, even though it was only one project and, you know, 3 Nights was a big radio hit for him. We were able to still get out there and, and do that tour and start building it the right way with him as a headliner from the start.

[00:30:14] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's great. I mean, I think, now, especially just because there are so many hits where you can clearly tell that, okay, I don't know if that one's really going to last, but other times he'll hear hit, be like, no, you can truly build something off of this. And that's what I think is unique about this era. And that's what I think is unique to see artists like Post and others as well who've literally been able to say, okay, I have the awareness. I have the exposure. How could we continue to build on whether you're taking your time for whether it's the album or the launch, whatever it is. There are so many unique ways to be able to continue to just build momentum and build the fan base today. And I think that's one of the more exciting things about where the industry is right now. 

[00:30:55] Cheryl Paglierani: Yeah, absolutely. Shout to Dre and to Post, we talked about this a lot in the beginning because of course when White Iverson came out, we were getting all the clubs that were reaching out and me and Dre were totally aligned and on the same page of like, that's not what we're going to do and we're going to build this the right way. And here we are. 

[00:31:11] Dan Runcie: For sure. And I'm sure part of this, too, with the artists you represent is that so much of the booking and so much of the time can be reflective of just them feeling burnt out, right? Maybe burnout isn't as much of a piece on the touring side, at least for Post, just given the fact that you're touring in arenas now. He's not necessarily doing 200-plus arena shows a year, but there are other artists that are doing nightclubs or doing smaller venues that are doing that clip or potentially even. How is it with some of the artists who that clearly is the phase that they are in their career, but there's just so much more awareness right now in this industry of how do we prevent burnout, how do we support the artists without having them be on the grind that, I think, in many ways became so standard for artists in the industry? 

[00:32:03] Cheryl Paglierani: Absolutely. I mean, I think that's actually really important. And I always, personally, when I'm putting together a routing or I'm thinking about what are we doing, I try to put myself in the artist's shoes and think would I be able to handle this? Could I play four nights in a row? Like, am I going to get burnt out if there's not a day off after this many shows in a row? We think about that a lot with Post 'cause even though you're not playing 200 arena shows a year, even playing two nights in an arena back to back and be really exhausting, and that's going to take a toll on him and on his voice and on his body. And I think, like, if you're an artist and you're getting up on stage and you're giving it your all. That's going to wear you out. So, it's always something that we're thinking about when we're routing of, like, okay, let's not make sure that we got this amount of time. We're going to fit this amount of shows in. We're going to make sure that there's a proper amount of days off. And I'm always thinking about that when I'm routing as to how is this going to physically be on the artist because that's first and foremost is keeping them healthy and keeping them wanting to do it. We never want an artist to start feeling like, oh, this is just too much. I can't take it. So we try to make it as comfortable as possible. 

[00:33:03] Dan Runcie: Do these VR and metaverse experiences help with this to some extent? I know he recently had the VR experience for his project, the Twelve Carat Toothache, and I know that he had had the Pokémon collaboration that he had recently. Do these types of things help a bit? Because there obviously is less travel and you could still reach an audience and potentially a growing audience based on the way things are heading. 

[00:33:28] Cheryl Paglierani: Absolutely. I mean, I don't think it helps per se in a sort of like taking anything off the touring side 'cause the touring's still going to be there, but those opportunities are just easier to pull off because you can do them in LA or like he did the Nirvana live stream from his house in Utah, things like that, where through the pandemic and we were able to still stay out there in a real way without having to go anywhere. So that definitely helps when there is something like that that can be done and adds so much value to your album rollout and just be really cool and really different. The VR experience, I mean, they built out different sets almost for every single, so like that was a full two-day production to film all of that. So it was still a lot of work, but it was again, staying in one place made it easy to pull off. 

[00:34:09] Dan Runcie: So five years from now, when Post is still headline status and is booking all the top festivals and touring around the world. What do you think shifts? Because obviously so much has shifted in the industry since White Iverson came out, streaming and all of the other types of opportunities for artists to go direct with their fans or anything else has expanded as well. And we'll continue to see more evolution on that front. What do you think will change specifically in the live performance or, more broadly, how Post and some of your other artists may go about it? 

[00:34:43] Cheryl Paglierani: What do I think is going to shift? I mean, I hope that one day with Post and you say, what will change, well, he's always been a one-man show. He's never played with the band. It's always him. And he gets up there and he kills it. I kind of hope that in the future we're seeing him, he might hear this and say, why would you say that? But my personal wish, I hope that like one day we see the show shift into him playing with a full band or maybe playing, you know, everyone always says to me, when's Post making a folk album? When's Post making a country album? I almost hope that maybe we see him shift and actually take a stab at a different genre completely. And just do something that's completely unexpected. Does that happen? I don't know, but it could be a shift. And I also think he has the potential and will reach stadium status. I hope somewhere in the next five years we maybe see. Like, we're able to go into baseball stadiums or something of the sort. Maybe it's not a full tour, these are just like my aspirations and my, my goals and what I want to see, whether, you know, that aligns with him, we have to discuss, but I think those are a few shifts that could be really interesting and cool.

[00:35:39] Dan Runcie: Well, Cheryl, this has been great. I think that there's just so much that's happening in this space and I'm excited for you. I'm excited for Post and all the other artists you represent, but before we let you go, is there anything else that you'd like to plug or let the capital audience know about?

[00:35:57] Cheryl Paglierani: Anything else I want to plug? I probably should have something for that, but nothing comes to mind. I'm not much of a self-promoter. I don't know what I have to plug.

[00:36:04] Dan Runcie: Or where people can find you if they want to follow you.

[00:36:07] Cheryl Paglierani: People can find me on Instagram. I'm just @cherylpags. 

[00:36:10] Dan Runcie: Okay. And then big things coming up for Post, obviously, we mentioned the tour, a few festivals coming up as well. 

[00:36:17] Cheryl Paglierani: I don't know if you saw, but we also announced we'll be doing stadiums in Australia with the Red Hot Chili Peppers in January. So we're really excited for that also. 

[00:36:24] Dan Runcie: Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. Another collab that makes a bunch of sense. All right. Well, Cheryl, this has been great. It's a pleasure. Thanks again for coming on. 

[00:36:32] Cheryl Paglierani: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:36:34] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.



]]> 2228 no Inside Benny Pough’s Career in Hip-Hop https://www.trapital.com/podcast Music exec Benny Pough has shaped the hip-hop industry in a career that’s spanned from Motown Records to Def Jam to Roc Nation and now his own entrepreneurial pursuits. Benny joined me on Trapital to discuss his 30-year journey and where it’s heading next. The defining feature of Benny has been his ability to spot and develop musical talent. He’s responsible for signing the likes of Future, Jeremih, and Yo Gotti, among others. That skill was initially forged from having an ear for what would catch on the radio, but has evolved in the streaming era. Despite this radical shift in music consumption, Benny says “stars will always be stars.” After working at seven different record labels, Benny left the corporate world in 2019 and dove full-time into entrepreneurialism. He runs two separate companies — DVERSE Media and Kandiid. The former is a global music distributor and publisher, while the latter is a mobile app for creators to monetize their content. Benny also manages a diversified real estate portfolio.  Like Benny’s own career, our conversation covers a lot of ground. Here’s our talking points:  [3:13] How Benny Developed His Eye andEar For Talent [4:42] Differences Between Hit-Makers andSuperstars [6:10] How Has Streaming Changed Superstar Development? [7:33] Record Label’s Role in Talent Development  [13:07] Inside Def Jam’s Business Turnaround During Mid-00s [16:02] Aligning Business andArt at Def Jam  [18:15] Teairra Mari and Rihanna Coming Up at Def Jam [21:37] Balancing Short-Term andLong-Term Business Goals [24:39] How Did Benny Adapt To Working At Different Labels? [27:00] Why Benny Became a Full-Time Entrepreneur  [28:34] How Does Benny Split Time Across His Business Ventures? [31:26] DVERSE Media’s Pitch To Artists [33:15] TikTok’s Role In Talent Development Today [34:43] Monetizing Content On Kandiid [36:07] How Benny Got Into Real Estate [38:54] Benny’s Upcoming Book Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Benny Pough, @bennypough   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Benny Pough: You can have a star, but if you don't have people who can market it and promote it and put the music together, then it's going to take that star a little more time. Or you can have great executives, but you have artists that don't have drive. They're kind of confused on who their identity is. They write good songs, they don't write great songs, then it's kind of off balance. It's that marriage of really strong executives and really great artistry.   [00:00:35] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:55] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Benny Pough. He is a music industry veteran. And when I'm talking about people that understand promotion, understand what it takes to make an artist go from sixty to a hundred, this is the person to talk to. He has identified talent over the years, working at Motown, Perspective, Arista, MCA, Def Jam, Epic, and Roc Nation Records. He worked at Def Jam during one of the turnaround eras for the record label from 2003, all the way up to 2011. So we're talking about that stretch where you had Rihanna, and Jeezy, and Kanye, and so many artists that made a huge impact there. Then he also worked at Epic where he was able to see Future, and Jeremih, and Travis Scott, and Yo Gotti. And so many of the artists there. And now he is building his own company. He works at Diverse Media, which is a music distribution and global publishing platform. He also has an app called Kandiid, which helps content creators and artists connect more directly with their fan base. We also talk about some of the ventures he has outside of music. He does a lot in real estate. We're talking about some of the real estate he does, even in my hometown, which was pretty dope to hear how he understands the neighborhoods pretty well. So this is a great interview. If you want to talk about a mogul that understands each point of this industry, and with this upcoming book where he is sharing these insights as well. This is the interview for you. Here's my conversation with Benny Pough.  [00:02:27] Dan Runcie: All right. Today, we got one of the music executives that has seen this industry and seen hip-hop through so many pivotal moments at some of the most storied record labels. Mr. Benny Pough. Welcome to the pod.  [00:02:40] Benny Pough: What's up, Dan? Been waiting, man! I don't know why you kept me out here so long, but thank you for having me today. [00:02:47] Dan Runcie: People have been asking for this one, people have been asking for this one.  [00:02:51] Benny Pough: Yeah. Yes, sir.  [00:02:52] Dan Runcie: And I mean, I think one of the reasons that people have been asking is because of your track record. You have identified some of the best talents in this field. Yo Gotti, Future, Jeremih, could go on with the list, but it's clear that you understand what you're looking for and you have an eye and an ear for this. What are you looking for when you spot talent?  [00:03:13] Benny Pough: So, you know, being a promotions person is how I started in the business. Like, my first entry point was at Motown records, doing college promotions. And at that point, I realized that, you know, music changed my life when I was able to take a song, and from a college level, and have it played across the airways, 'cause you have to think about over the decades, the mass means of communication was radio. So that changed everything. If you got on the radio in any capacity, you know, it could take you from zero to sixty. So for me, listening to the radio and listening to music one way or another, my ear just got refined to what sounds good on the radio. So with the artists that you mentioned, I heard their music before I even met them. So it's something about, you know, obviously the spirit, you know, that ooze through them that comes out in their music that always just resonated with me. So the next step would be, you know, to meet them and obviously the artists that you mentioned, you know, from Future to Jeremih, Gotti, F.L.Y., it was something special about them that they'd already created for themselves. They just needed, you know, that opportunity to present itself for them to move on to the next level.  [00:04:23] Dan Runcie: And I'm sure meeting that adds a whole nother layer 'cause you could have the voice but you're not just building someone that can record an audio track. You're trying to identify stars. What is it from meeting them in person that adds to it? Or is there something extra that you see when you're face to face?  [00:04:42] Benny Pough: I think what's probably problematic now is that people can become instantaneously popular just from streaming. But never been in, you know, never really been in a studio 'cause you can record in your house. Never performed at a dive because that's not what's required. Never actually performed in front of an audience. So they're great songwriters, maybe producers, but the bar is so much lower on the entry point now, because any and everyone can do it. The difference between the people who make just hit songs or records, and the ones who are superstars is that they have the full package. Not only do they write or they perform, but you know, they have that whole je ne sais quoi, something special about them that people want to hear more and more, see more and more of them. And that's what the key is. And always has been, you know, since the beginning of music, of those people who attract and draw you in. [00:05:37] Dan Runcie: You mentioned streaming and how it is easier and how it's very different from having a hit record as opposed to being a superstar. But do you think that even some of the visual aspects are becoming easier to replicate, too? Thinking about how someone could do so much of the production of music videos, or even the visual of what they can do, whether it's through Instagram and developing a following, but there's still, there could still be a disconnect between having that piece of it as well and really being someone that can push a record label and push themselves.  [00:06:10] Benny Pough: So the power is probably the best time, music and arts, the power's in the creator. You know, ultimately as a consumer, we'll choose what we like at the value point that we will or not. But ultimately as a creator, you can get in where, before you couldn't, because there were, you know, gatekeepers. So now that you have the access and the ability to take your art to the masses. It's great. Now the level of what you have, meaning, you know, whether it's your music or your visual, if people like it, they're going to like it. And if they don't, if they feel it's inferior, then that's your presentation to the masses. So ideally you can't look at it as a negative, but, you know, obviously, as you grow, and you develop, and you have success. All of those levels start to heighten as well.  [00:07:02] Dan Runcie: And do you feel like this has made it easier or harder or how different it is for the people that clearly have superstar potential, but they are coming up in this era where there is more noise? But on the other hand, because some of that noise can filter away some of the artists that don't necessarily have that potential and let the cream rise to the crop, I've heard people use both arguments about what it's like for superstars right now, but what's your take on the current stars now? [00:07:33] Benny Pough: Stars will always be stars, and we're going to find them if that's the true course of action. You know, I worked with L.A. Reid, and I remember him always just telling me the story about Outkast. He didn't sign them the first time they performed for him. It might have been the second or the third, but because they had it and when they finally brought it back to him, you know, the rest is history. Did it make them lesser stars because they weren't signed the first time? No. What they went back and did was hone their skills, hone their craft. And at some point, the rubber hit the road and the rest is history, and that's happened countless times. Look how many times Michael Jackson was passed on. So I don't think the internet or that we're in a technological, you know, era that it changes the pursuit and the passion for people who truly have the desire and commitment to their art. You know, it just doesn't happen that I designate myself to be an artist today. And since I'm going to be an artist today, I'm going to be a star tomorrow, right? It doesn't quite work that way. And the people who have the wherewithal and the gifts, they're going to find it.  [00:08:38] Dan Runcie: Do you think it's harder for people to hit those Michael Jackson levels though? Because I do think that he, of course, I can't think of anyone that was more famous at that particular time. And even some of the artists that you have now. Yes, some of the biggest stars you've seen, they're breaking records and streaming, but culture is just so much noisier and there's so many other things like it's hard for any one artist to reach those same levels. Or do you think that that's still possible?  [00:09:07] Benny Pough: It's just different iterations of it. And I don't think you can ever take the greatness of one artist and measure other artists to that, right? Now you can look at stats and go, well, did you, did this person have this many accomplishments as is that one? Then you start getting to the, you know, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kobe, right? It's just all different. So it's not the same measurement, but also just realize everyone has greatness and in their time of what was available and what the market was, they exceeded everyone's expectation. So that exists and it's going to exist beyond, you know, today until tomorrow. So it's really about, you know, how do you maximize the moments and all of that is really consistent on how much you commit to your craft. [00:09:56] Dan Runcie: I agree because I think about some of the stars right now, we still see it. It just may not be necessarily the most traditional sense the way people see it. I look at what Bad Bunny is doing right now. We haven't necessarily seen someone like him do what he's doing at the level that he's doing, whether it's the streaming records or even the sold-out concerts. Or even if you look at BTS, I think there's something to be said there for just how popular and strong that fan base is. And then you have your Drakes and your Taylor Swifts, these artists that I think even in 10 years will still be some of the biggest artists of their generation.  [00:10:33] Benny Pough: And that's all catalog. You know, artists that have great music, amazing songs, and are true performers. So, you know, once you get to that level, it puts you in a category by yourself,  [00:10:47] Dan Runcie: Right. And so much of this goes back to the work of these artists working with record labels, and a lot of the names that we mention, they got big pre-streaming. And because of that, I think they entered a phase where record labels did do a lot more of the development to help bring them along to the area that they are now. [00:11:07] Dan Runcie: But I think what we're seeing now is, because of all of the tools and all of the do-it-yourself functions that we're seeing that artists have the ability to do, by the time you're ready to join a record label, the hope is that you at least have some footing behind you, right? This isn't necessarily the place that's going to bring you from zero to a hundred. But if you could get from zero to sixty, you sign with them and then that can hopefully get you to a hundred. And I think that's the piece of it that's a little different than even what we may have looked at 10, 15 years ago with some of the names you mentioned where it was still a bit harder for them to break out without having the additional support earlier in their career.  [00:11:49] Benny Pough: That's the equivalent. I don't disagree with you. The entry points probably are, you know, different, but in some very similar. Ideally you are a thousand percent correct. You can't look to a label to develop you at this point, but when you think about, you know, some of the earliest stars they were developed outside of the label as well, right? So, you know, that kind of overlaps in that perspective. I think the root of all of this is starting with talent, regardless, whether you were, you know, in the past and things weren't as technologically advanced or right now, you know, you have the ability of all of technology. But you don't have all of the components that are going to help you, i.e. great songs, great producers, you know, and all of those true means that are going to really push you to the next level.  [00:12:35] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And I think, for you specifically, you've seen it with so many of the labels you've worked out, whether it's Motown or even the run you had with Def Jam as well. And I do want to talk specifically about the Def Jam run because, as someone that loves business case studies, this is a turnaround story and you had a front-row seat to push that forward. Tell us that story and let's walk through that process. What are the key things you think that really helped Def Jam turn things around from that '93 to, you know, going on into the 2000s run? [00:13:07] Benny Pough: So the crazy thing was, you know, for me getting into Def Jam was, it was amazing. The fact that they were a closed shop. You have to realize Def Jam never really let outsiders in. Everything was homegrown. They were one of the very few labels that was truly closed shop, right? Like, the people who started there from interns elevated all the way up, you know, into the higher senior positions, I mean, i.e. Kevin Liles, who is, you know, the person who reached out to me to come over to the organization. So given that opportunity and I was on the West Coast and wanted to get back home, I was at MCA Records and I wanted to get back home. So when I got the call, I was like, wow, I can go for one of the most renowned hip-hop labels in the world and get back home. So it was a no-brainer. Shortly thereafter I came on, Kevin and Lyor exited the building and L.A. Walked in. And that was, you know, an interesting dynamic because, one, I'd, you know, heard a lot about him and knew, you know, his abilities, but I didn't, wasn't certain on what my outcome would be because he didn't bring me in. [00:14:10] Benny Pough: It was a great union because he was an amazing, as we all know, music maker, hit kind of guy. I was a promotion guru, you know, at that time in my career. So, it gave me a great opportunity to, one, work with one of the best, which also made me one of the best, great music, strong promotions, i.e. put it all together in a pot, stir it up, you got to hit artists, right? And the talent was insane. We had one of the best A&R teams in the business, one of the best marketing teams in the business, one of the best promotion teams, publicity, et cetera. And then we all played as a unit. And I think that's, what's really important in any business, including the music business. When you get a real starting fire and the goal is to really bring on the gold, it's unstoppable with incredible artists and amazing music. So, you know, that's how all of that came together. And through that, you know, between Young Jeezy, Rick Ross, Rihanna, Ne-Yo. We had Fabolous, Justin Bieber walked in, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It was just an amazing, amazing time in music for us and that component of those artists, that team, and everyone wanting the big win put us right exactly where you have in this conversation.  [00:15:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And the other key thing with this, too, is that you also had a few leadership changes, as you mentioned. You had Kevin Liles, and then you had L.A., and then you were there during the Jay-Z stretch as well. And I'm sure with each of those, you were able to keep things moving just with the amount of talent that was coming through, but I'm sure that there were different things, whether it was leadership styles or things that the label needed at a particular time that was able to help it get to where it was during those 2000s.  [00:16:02] Benny Pough: So what's important, what people have to realize, and, you know, we put entertainment as though it's its own kind of business. It's still business. And you know, you have to learn how to manage up and manage down. And obviously, all the bosses have their own idiosyncrasies, but all of their goals is about winning. And obviously, you know, the people component is very important 'cause they're all specific on identifying the right talent, but also the right executives because true leaders understand, in the music business, the combination of both is what's going to help. You can have a star, but if you don't have people who can market it and promote it and put the music together, then it's going to take that star a little more. time Or you can have great executives, but you have artists that don't have drive. They're kind of confused on who their identity is. They write good songs, they don't write great songs, then it's kind of off balance. So when you get that real true alignment of both business and talent, that's when you have, and you look back at it, like go through the history of all of the strong labels. It's that marriage of really strong executives and really great artistry. So it doesn't change, right, where our business isn't different. We have just a non-traditional product.  [00:17:22] Dan Runcie: Exactly. I mean, at the end of the day, there's something that you're trying to sell. You understand the customer, you're trying to get what you can get out there.  [00:17:29] Benny Pough: Yes, sir.  [00:17:30] Dan Runcie: Looking back and you talking through some of these stories with these leaders making me think of that time as well. One of the stories I know that often gets talked about going back to around 2004, 2005, Def Jam is figuring out, okay, who is the artist that we want to propel, especially who is the woman artist we want to propel. And there was so much about whether the label is going to push Teairra Marí, or if the label was going to push Rihanna. And so much of that, I know that you were, had a front row seat in, what was that process like? And what is it like now just thinking about how it went and how, whether you could discern what we eventually saw play out, or if it was still tough to know at the moment how either career would've went? [00:18:15] Benny Pough: So let's be very clear. And especially in my upbringing in the music business and how I've always been disciplined and even in just me as an individual, I don't play sides. I have to give my all to each and everyone because we don't know. Like, I can't say this one is a hit and this one isn't. My responsibility in the pipeline is to make sure that I do my best to expose the product to the marketplace. In both of those scenarios, the company was behind both artists. Ultimately, the public is going to decide who are they going to weigh in more or not. But sitting here today, I wouldn't tell you I did more or less for either of those other than provide an amazing system for them to go through in order to have the opportunity to live their dreams. [00:19:04] Dan Runcie: And that makes sense. And I think that's the most fair way to do it.  [00:19:07] Benny Pough: Yeah.  [00:19:07] Dan Runcie: Were you surprised at all by the outcome or how things played out in terms of the public's response?  [00:19:14] Benny Pough: Rihanna's one of the greatest in the world. I mean, it speaks to its own, right? That speaks to itself and also realized she had, when you think about it, and there's very few artists, when you talk about classics, right? When you can go through hip-hop or R&B, like, classic albums, her first album was a classic album, right? So ultimately the people weighed in on what they appreciated from her at that point. And that in turn is about once where we started in this conversation, the artistry, it's the music and it's the team. So you got to think about a lot of artists who came through Def Jam through those years. We talk about the ones that, you know, went on and had massive success, but there were artists, too, that had great success. There were artists that make a good living and then there are artists like, it didn't work out because, obviously, the people did decide, not us. [00:20:06] Dan Runcie: Right. And that's what makes it so tough, I think, in any type of business, whether you're looking at other areas of entertainment, everything else, you could do the best thing that you think you want to put out. But there has to be some type of demand. There has to be something that is pulling artists through. And I think we saw that with the other singles that came off of Music of the Sun, Rihanna's first album. So fascinating times, it's really special to go back and think about it, especially now. I mean, who knows when we'll see the next album, but hopefully sooner rather than later. One of the things that stands out to me though, with the Def Jam time specifically, is just how much market share the record label was able to grow as well. And I wonder from your perspective, we're talking so much about balancing the business versus the art, so much of the work is focused on, okay, who can you promote? How can you push things? But there's also this zero-sum game of how can you get more market share than the other record labels that you're competing against and all of that. Was it ever a feeling like a bit of a tug of war between the art and the business of pushing these things knowing that there's this ultimate metric that the label's shooting for. But there's this longer-term aspect of trying to build and grow artists 'cause I know with other companies, it's kind of one of these things where you have the long-term goals, but how does that work with the quarterly earnings and I do think that market share is essentially that for record labels in the music industry.  [00:21:37] Benny Pough: So, a lot of that's going to be predicated on leadership. And, you know, the companies that I worked for were very artist-driven. And what was most important about having the artist was making sure that the artist got their best shot and performance. And so that was a driving force for us at Def Jam. You know, it's not being irresponsible, it's just a matter of, you know, investing in giving the music, the artists enough time to breathe. Everything is not going to just be determined in black and white. Everything's not going to be determined in dollars and cents. And the people who are aligned right from the business end, gas on, gas off. Someone has to read it, how much to invest in this artist because of what the tea leaves are versus investing in this artist, predicated on what the tea leaves are. If you have something that's not talking back or something that's not performing, then you can't throw enough money at it. They don't like it, but if you have something that's incrementally or even starts to just explode, then, you know, that's a better bet to hedge your money on. And the executives in the leadership, in the companies that have a really firm grasp of knowing when to gas on and gas off on which particular artist, as well as you know, the whole perspective of the business unit are the ones that have wins in both the artistry, people want to come in because, with the success of the artist, that's what people are excited about. No one signs to a label going, oh, you have the largest market share. They go, oh, Future's over there. Travis is over there. Gotti's over there, you know what I mean? That's what they're going to say. Khaled's over there. They're going to say that they're not going to go, oh, you guys had 11 share? No, they're not going to do that.  [00:23:22] Benny Pough: But in essence, all of it does work hand in hand, right? And on the other end with having successful artists, you have more market share, bigger profits. You know, now the executives, you're going to attract executives 'case they want to be there, right? Because good bonusing, good salaries, et cetera. So, a lot of that is really, really determined by the leadership.  [00:23:43] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you mentioned the Future, Travis, and Gotti 'cause that is your time at Epic. You were able to see this run. You were able to see those artists just push through as well and, obviously, a different record label. I'm sure things were likely different there, but you had worked at several beforehand. What is it like when you obviously know exactly what you're doing, you understand what's required to succeed in your role, but you know, that you're shifting into a different culture, shifting into a different environment? How do you adapt yourself as someone that has already seen success in different labels, but you're moving on to other companies and still understanding that, yes, you know how to make this artist pop, but there's different folks in charge and there's different things that are happening that you also need to be aware of as you're wanting to execute the best promotional campaigns possible? [00:24:39] Benny Pough: So Benny Pough is a brand. I'm not interchangeable in that way. My core values are my core values. And if people are hiring you or bringing you into their organization, they want the best of you. And obviously, and it's no different from going from, you know, the high school football team to the college football team. You have to learn how to adapt, but football is football. And in essence, you just learned in different plays from a different coach, and what they expect you and why they recruited you to bring you over is to bring your talent and show us exactly what we need to be done in order to win. So it doesn't become that complicated and don't forget once again, it's learning how to manage. Like, you can't come in with a crazy ego. You have to be adaptable, amenable, and willing to learn in someone else's environment, but also bring your best game to play.  [00:25:28] Dan Runcie: Were there any of the record labels you worked at where you feel like the culture or the way that they operated things was very different than the others? I know you were at Roc Nation Records after Epic but was any of them truly unique in this area?  [00:25:41] Benny Pough: I worked at seven different labels. All of them were different 'cause it's seven different leaders. And I think, like, the common thread with all of them is that they had an insatiable desire to win. So every person that I worked for wanted to win and they all saw a different path to winning, but that was the common thread. And then systems, you know, obviously, the ones who were successful had winning systems, and the ones who kind of meandered out had different kinds of systems. So I think a lot of it comes into play to the individuals, right? If everybody could you know, coach the New England Patriots, then everybody would be doing the job, right? It's the best of the best it's going to get, you know, to do that and sit in that seat.  [00:26:29] Dan Runcie: Right, exactly. And I know that sitting in that seat and having so much control over understanding what needs to be done is key with this. But I also recognize that you specifically with where you are in your career right now, you've worked at many different labels, but you're no longer working for a label. You've since left, you've left Roc Nation Records a few years back, and you are now building your own companies. Can you talk to me about that process, that transition, and why this was the right time for you to make that leap? [00:27:00] Benny Pough: Man, it's an amazing time in my life because now I have the opportunity of everything I learned, right? Think about the talent that I've identified over the years, the executives that I've groomed over the years, and realizing business and talent is something that I've been blessed to do. So now I can take all of that, what I've learned, and now apply it and reap the benefits for my family and friends. So I'm super, super excited about this time and being in the marketplace and having the freedom and flexibility to chase different and identify different kinds of talent, you know. Had I been at a major label, I wouldn't have invested in an app, right? Had I been in a major label, I wouldn't be launching my first conference. Had I been in a major label, I wouldn't be releasing a book. So it gives me, you know, the freedom and the latitude. But since I'd spent so much time learning the system, I am now approaching this from both a corporate perspective and entrepreneurial perspective, blended to now give the artists that I've signed as well as the ones that, you know, I manage and the business that I'm involved in, you know, the best opportunity to win because I've seen a lot of winning along the way. [00:28:19] Dan Runcie: Exactly and for you right now, you have Diverse Media, you have Kandiid, you also have real estate, and a few other business interests. How do you split your time right now? And writing a book as well, how do you split your time between each of these? [00:28:34] Benny Pough: Organization. It's no different than anything else. You know, whether you're working for someone or working for yourself, it's all time management, allocation of, you know, what needs to be done for this particular company today. You know, the things that need to be responded to, but most importantly, making sure that I'm reading the tea leaves properly because I'm the one that's investing. So it's, you know, being fiscally responsible is important and also taking the signs from the marketplace. As we talked earlier, the things that you learn along the way, just because I love it and no one else does, at some point I got to go to what they say versus how I feel because it's my resources, but I'm having a great time in this section of my life. [00:29:15] Dan Runcie: I got to imagine that's the biggest change as well, right? You're working for these record labels, part of these bigger corporations, someone else is always giving the final checkoff. And some of that may line up with what you want. Some of that may line up with what you don't want, but here, the buck stops with you, and there's sure there's so much freedom with that. How has that piece of it been? Because I know that that is likely one of the bigger changes or bigger shifts that comes with being able to run these types of businesses yourself.  [00:29:46] Benny Pough: It's exhilarating and scary at the same time. You know, what you realize or what I've realized along the way is, you know, was always indicative of having someone on the team to go, what do you think, or let's go through this one more time, you know, to help you formulate that opinion because all the opinions aren't yours and all decisions aren't just made by you. The buck stops with you, but you know, you can lean in and on other different resources inside of the company. When you're independent, it may not be as rich as far as having those qualified people to assist you in the decision-making. So I'm very tactical on how I approach things. Obviously, you have to get more analytic in determining, you know, how to proceed in situations in the companies that I'm invested in. And at the end of the year, it has to make sense, right? It's the bottom line. It has to make sense in order for it to continue.  [00:30:39] Dan Runcie: So let's walk through each of these 'cause I think there are ways to talk a little bit more about each of them, with Diverse Media specifically, global music, distribution, and publishing. This is your insights you're bringing. And you're like, I've been doing this for decades. I'm one of the most experienced people here. And I know what it takes to run the ship. What is the pitch then to artists who may want to, as you kind of put it yourself, they see the superstars that are still at the major record labels? You may not necessarily have the stable of the superstar yourself, but you're pitching yourself as your experience as well. How has that pitch been? 'Cause I'm sure that pitch is a little different when working for yourself as opposed to having the major label behind you.  [00:31:26] Benny Pough: So it's not for everyone, but it's for the right people. I've worked with some incredible talent as an independent now that I have been able to help groom them, teach them, develop them in a process that, one, a major label wouldn't look to them for. So we have different needs. It's a smaller investment for me in investing in someone who's at the beginning of their career. And we are more of a partnership because I'm going to be very specific as well of who we're going to give my time to. And for them, they get direct contact to someone who, guess what, can make a call and help them move a little bit further and faster than they would've on their own. So I enjoy that, that element of it, and it gives me the ability to stay very connected in the music space, but also grow and develop talent at the pace that they primarily would not get at a major. 'Cause once you get on the conveyor belt, it's your time. It's your time when they say it's your time. And I think what we're lacking now is the development, the true artist development. So that's what artists get the benefit from. And it works. [00:32:26] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I think, especially with the type of artist, you're looking at the sweet spot as well. There's so many artists that look at the technology medium as the means of growth or the means of exposure, right? I got to get on the streaming services. I got to get on TikTok. I got to start making reels and things like that. How much importance does that play for the artists that you serve? Because on one hand, as we're talking about at the beginning of this conversation, there can be so much emphasis on just having these songs or having these videos that are being put in this place, so you can write it up in numbers, but that still doesn't quite develop you as an artist, but it is one of these chicken and egg things. So how much of a focus is TikTok for you with the artist that you're working with?  [00:33:15] Benny Pough: TikTok is pretty much the hand were dealt in the music at this point. So you can't ignore it because that's what everybody's leaning into, but then there's a whole other means of developing talent outside of TikTok. And it all depends on what's specific for what you're looking for as someone in the executive seat. I mean, if I can see it on TikTok and everybody at a major label can see it on TikTok, okay, it's cool. But everyone's not going to see the same thing. Like, although it may have all of the mechanisms, it's making all of the growth, you know, week over week. It just may not be something comfortable for me unless you're doing, you're in the commerce game, right? You're just chasing money and that's fine, right? People do that well. I've always been someone who's been more about the artistry and people who are going to have staying power. So, you know, if you get lucky and you get one that becomes lightning in a bottle, that's great. But more importantly, you know, I'm a time over money kind of guy. You know, I'll develop you, you know, spend time with you, you and I like, yo, we figured out, you know, we committed to each other. And when it's okay, we might not have made the billion dollars, right? But we lived a good life and that's equally as important as those who, you know, get a couple million, then they go away.  [00:34:31] Dan Runcie: Right. And I feel like this lines up as well with Kandiid, which is your social media platform that you have. What role do you see it playing for artists and content creators?  [00:34:43] Benny Pough: It's the equalizer. It gives artists the opportunity to monetize on their content, which was crazy. When the pandemic started, we were one of the first platforms to actually introduce that, that people could actually pay to monetize their content. And obviously, you know, OnlyFans took on a whole other different dynamic, but also, too, that was web-based that wasn't an app. Like, we were an app that was in that space, you know, to put us into a different ball game and then having Soulja Boy come on and endorse the company and is also one of the co-founders involved, just opened up all kinds of vehicles and avenues for us as we started to grow and develop in the space.  [00:35:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's crucial. It's needed. And I think having the artists themselves as backers helps push it into a whole other level 'cause it goes back to the why does someone want to sign with the record label, they see who's involved with it. Why would they want to use a social media app or a new platform, they see who's involved with it. So that makes sense. The other piece of this, though, and we're talking about this a little bit before we recorded is what you're doing in real estate. You own a number of properties, even in my hometown, which I thought was pretty dope to hear about. Talk to me about that piece of it 'cause obviously very different from music, but there's so many wise reasons why it's a smart investment, but we'd love to hear what that journey was like for you, how it started and how you see it continue to develop. [00:36:07] Benny Pough: Mentally, I fell in love with real estate. If there was a passion, first thing I ever wanted to do was be a truck driver, just like my dad. And then the second thing was to own a home because we lived at a five-family home in White Plains, New York, where my parents had an opportunity to purchase this home from the owner who was moving back to Kansas. And when I realized the freedom that having a multi-unit at that time, you know, what it gave our family was exceptional. My father had the freedom, didn't have to work. My mother worked at the post office and was able to take care of us with, you know, the benefits from the health perspective and the building paid off the mortgage and put money in their pocket. So one day I said to myself, you know, I just want to be like my parents like when it's time for me to retire, I don't want to have to worry about how to make ends meet per se. So that was the impetus to this. Once I got into the music business and realized that, you know, it's one of the few businesses, especially for us as minorities, where, you know, you walk in and six months or a year, you could be making six figures, right? As a young person, there's no guidance, there's no financial planning, you know, there's no one telling you what the value of six-figure you might be making more than your Senator, right?  [00:37:23] Benny Pough: As a music person, so for me, staying in lockstep with what my parents were doing, I realized making this money, I had to prepare for my exit. So every bonus I bought a piece of property, you know, I bought a single family. I bought a single condo. I bought multi-units. I bought buildings. And to the point we were talking about, you know, I had even owned up to a city block at one point. So the benefit of the business was very, very giving to me and realizing that at one day it would end, that you'd have to create no different than any other entrepreneur, people who are out on their own in their own small business, you have to create your own retirement because one day you can be making a six figures or a seven-figure salary. And then the next day that's gone. It may never come back. So you can't live in the moment of just what you're receiving. You need to think about what you're receiving, also to be planning for the day when that's not there, right? So it's important, very, very important for young people or old people who are now, in their careers, figuring out the next steps is that you should always plan for the future.  [00:38:33] Dan Runcie: Well said, and I feel like I can hear some of the insights already that you're likely going to be sharing in the book you have coming out. [00:38:40] Benny Pough: Oh, absolutely.  [00:38:41] Dan Runcie: So talk to me a little bit more about the book. I'm sure that this conversation highlights some of those things that you want to share, but what are some of the things that we may not have covered that are the key themes from the book that you have coming out?  [00:38:54] Benny Pough: So On Impact spawned from a near-death car accident that took place in 2014, hit a tree at 90 miles an hour, sustained a level two concussion. That's when you black out from one to five minutes, L3-4 vertebrae fracture, bulging disk in my back, lacerated liver, and severed two feet of my small intestine. And in that moment, God put a book inside of me called On Impact, which is an acronym for intuition, mastery, pivot, authenticity, connection, and teamwork. And what it does is takes the reader for me with my first job that was, at 11 years old, delivering newspapers to modern day with an undercurrent of music because the majority of my life, I spent in the music business. And at the end of each chapter, I put together what's called a hit list or takeaways from each chapter for an individual to now apply to their daily lives and say pretty much if Benny could do it, I could do it, too. So it's a roadmap for interns to CEOs because I've done both.  [00:39:52] Dan Runcie: Nice. When's the date for it coming out?  [00:39:57] Benny Pough: September 27th, 2022.  [00:39:57] Dan Runcie: Exciting stuff. Exciting stuff, man. I feel like it will be, and I'm sure it already feels like it's going to be a ton of work leading up to it, but I am sure that once you're actually in the thick of it, you're seeing people resonate with it, like that's where the real reward comes from, right? You wanted to be able to share these insights, of course, life-changing and life-threatening challenges and accidents that you have to go through. But that's what gives you the clarity to be able to share this. So hopefully it can provide someone else and hopefully many others with the same insights. [00:40:31] Benny Pough: I think what happens for us is we don't get an opportunity to get the lessons when we need them. So, what I want this to be is a roadmap of giving people an opportunity to see, guess what, there are a lot of similarities for others just like myself. And now you don't have to struggle to figure it out. This is here for you. So I'm excited to share this with the world and give those who just need that little extra push and insight. Come get it.  [00:41:00] Dan Runcie: And they're in the right spot. Good stuff. Well, Benny, this has been a pleasure. We covered so much in your career, what you've been doing since then, especially on the entrepreneurial front, and also with other ventures, but for anyone that wants to keep tabs on you and follow what you're doing. Where could they follow and keep up with you?  [00:41:19] Benny Pough: All my socials are @bennypough, B E N N Y P O U G H. And come visit my website. bennypough.com anytime.  [00:41:27] Dan Runcie: Good stuff. Benny, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.  [00:41:29] Benny Pough: All right, Dan. [00:41:31] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 05 Aug 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Inside Benny Pough’s Career in Hip-Hop full Dan Runcie Music exec Benny Pough has shaped the hip-hop industry in a career that’s spanned from Motown Records to Def Jam to Roc Nation and now his own entrepreneurial pursuits. Benny joined me on Trapital to discuss his 30-year journey and where it’s heading next. The defining feature of Benny has been his ability to spot and develop musical talent. He’s responsible for signing the likes of Future, Jeremih, and Yo Gotti, among others. That skill was initially forged from having an ear for what would catch on the radio, but has evolved in the streaming era. Despite this radical shift in music consumption, Benny says “stars will always be stars.” After working at seven different record labels, Benny left the corporate world in 2019 and dove full-time into entrepreneurialism. He runs two separate companies — DVERSE Media and Kandiid. The former is a global music distributor and publisher, while the latter is a mobile app for creators to monetize their content. Benny also manages a diversified real estate portfolio.  Like Benny’s own career, our conversation covers a lot of ground. Here’s our talking points:  [3:13] How Benny Developed His Eye andEar For Talent [4:42] Differences Between Hit-Makers andSuperstars [6:10] How Has Streaming Changed Superstar Development? [7:33] Record Label’s Role in Talent Development  [13:07] Inside Def Jam’s Business Turnaround During Mid-00s [16:02] Aligning Business andArt at Def Jam  [18:15] Teairra Mari and Rihanna Coming Up at Def Jam [21:37] Balancing Short-Term andLong-Term Business Goals [24:39] How Did Benny Adapt To Working At Different Labels? [27:00] Why Benny Became a Full-Time Entrepreneur  [28:34] How Does Benny Split Time Across His Business Ventures? [31:26] DVERSE Media’s Pitch To Artists [33:15] TikTok’s Role In Talent Development Today [34:43] Monetizing Content On Kandiid [36:07] How Benny Got Into Real Estate [38:54] Benny’s Upcoming Book Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Benny Pough, @bennypough   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Benny Pough: You can have a star, but if you don't have people who can market it and promote it and put the music together, then it's going to take that star a little more time. Or you can have great executives, but you have artists that don't have drive. They're kind of confused on who their identity is. They write good songs, they don't write great songs, then it's kind of off balance. It's that marriage of really strong executives and really great artistry.   [00:00:35] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:55] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Benny Pough. He is a music industry veteran. And when I'm talking about people that understand promotion, understand what it takes to make an artist go from sixty to a hundred, this is the person to talk to. He has identified talent over the years, working at Motown, Perspective, Arista, MCA, Def Jam, Epic, and Roc Nation Records. He worked at Def Jam during one of the turnaround eras for the record label from 2003, all the way up to 2011. So we're talking about that stretch where you had Rihanna, and Jeezy, and Kanye, and so many artists that made a huge impact there. Then he also worked at Epic where he was able to see Future, and Jeremih, and Travis Scott, and Yo Gotti. And so many of the artists there. And now he is building his own company. He works at Diverse Media, which is a music distribution and global publishing platform. He also has an app called Kandiid, which helps content creators and artists connect more directly with their fan base. We also talk about some of the ventures he has outside of music. He does a lot in real estate. We're talking about some of the real estate he does, even in my hometown, which was pretty dope to hear how he understands the neighborhoods pretty well. So this is a great interview. If you want to talk about a mogul that understands each point of this industry, and with this upcoming book where he is sharing these insights as well. This is the interview for you. Here's my conversation with Benny Pough.  [00:02:27] Dan Runcie: All right. Today, we got one of the music executives that has seen this industry and seen hip-hop through so many pivotal moments at some of the most storied record labels. Mr. Benny Pough. Welcome to the pod.  [00:02:40] Benny Pough: What's up, Dan? Been waiting, man! I don't know why you kept me out here so long, but thank you for having me today. [00:02:47] Dan Runcie: People have been asking for this one, people have been asking for this one.  [00:02:51] Benny Pough: Yeah. Yes, sir.  [00:02:52] Dan Runcie: And I mean, I think one of the reasons that people have been asking is because of your track record. You have identified some of the best talents in this field. Yo Gotti, Future, Jeremih, could go on with the list, but it's clear that you understand what you're looking for and you have an eye and an ear for this. What are you looking for when you spot talent?  [00:03:13] Benny Pough: So, you know, being a promotions person is how I started in the business. Like, my first entry point was at Motown records, doing college promotions. And at that point, I realized that, you know, music changed my life when I was able to take a song, and from a college level, and have it played across the airways, 'cause you have to think about over the decades, the mass means of communication was radio. So that changed everything. If you got on the radio in any capacity, you know, it could take you from zero to sixty. So for me, listening to the radio and listening to music one way or another, my ear just got refined to what sounds good on the radio. So with the artists that you mentioned, I heard their music before I even met them. So it's something about, you know, obviously the spirit, you know, that ooze through them that comes out in their music that always just resonated with me. So the next step would be, you know, to meet them and obviously the artists that you mentioned, you know, from Future to Jeremih, Gotti, F.L.Y., it was something special about them that they'd already created for themselves. They just needed, you know, that opportunity to present itself for them to move on to the next level.  [00:04:23] Dan Runcie: And I'm sure meeting that adds a whole nother layer 'cause you could have the voice but you're not just building someone that can record an audio track. You're trying to identify stars. What is it from meeting them in person that adds to it? Or is there something extra that you see when you're face to face?  [00:04:42] Benny Pough: I think what's probably problematic now is that people can become instantaneously popular just from streaming. But never been in, you know, never really been in a studio 'cause you can record in your house. Never performed at a dive because that's not what's required. Never actually performed in front of an audience. So they're great songwriters, maybe producers, but the bar is so much lower on the entry point now, because any and everyone can do it. The difference between the people who make just hit songs or records, and the ones who are superstars is that they have the full package. Not only do they write or they perform, but you know, they have that whole je ne sais quoi, something special about them that people want to hear more and more, see more and more of them. And that's what the key is. And always has been, you know, since the beginning of music, of those people who attract and draw you in. [00:05:37] Dan Runcie: You mentioned streaming and how it is easier and how it's very different from having a hit record as opposed to being a superstar. But do you think that even some of the visual aspects are becoming easier to replicate, too? Thinking about how someone could do so much of the production of music videos, or even the visual of what they can do, whether it's through Instagram and developing a following, but there's still, there could still be a disconnect between having that piece of it as well and really being someone that can push a record label and push themselves.  [00:06:10] Benny Pough: So the power is probably the best time, music and arts, the power's in the creator. You know, ultimately as a consumer, we'll choose what we like at the value point that we will or not. But ultimately as a creator, you can get in where, before you couldn't, because there were, you know, gatekeepers. So now that you have the access and the ability to take your art to the masses. It's great. Now the level of what you have, meaning, you know, whether it's your music or your visual, if people like it, they're going to like it. And if they don't, if they feel it's inferior, then that's your presentation to the masses. So ideally you can't look at it as a negative, but, you know, obviously, as you grow, and you develop, and you have success. All of those levels start to heighten as well.  [00:07:02] Dan Runcie: And do you feel like this has made it easier or harder or how different it is for the people that clearly have superstar potential, but they are coming up in this era where there is more noise? But on the other hand, because some of that noise can filter away some of the artists that don't necessarily have that potential and let the cream rise to the crop, I've heard people use both arguments about what it's like for superstars right now, but what's your take on the current stars now? [00:07:33] Benny Pough: Stars will always be stars, and we're going to find them if that's the true course of action. You know, I worked with L.A. Reid, and I remember him always just telling me the story about Outkast. He didn't sign them the first time they performed for him. It might have been the second or the third, but because they had it and when they finally brought it back to him, you know, the rest is history. Did it make them lesser stars because they weren't signed the first time? No. What they went back and did was hone their skills, hone their craft. And at some point, the rubber hit the road and the rest is history, and that's happened countless times. Look how many times Michael Jackson was passed on. So I don't think the internet or that we're in a technological, you know, era that it changes the pursuit and the passion for people who truly have the desire and commitment to their art. You know, it just doesn't happen that I designate myself to be an artist today. And since I'm going to be an artist today, I'm going to be a star tomorrow, right? It doesn't quite work that way. And the people who have the wherewithal and the gifts, they're going to find it.  [00:08:38] Dan Runcie: Do you think it's harder for people to hit those Michael Jackson levels though? Because I do think that he, of course, I can't think of anyone that was more famous at that particular time. And even some of the artists that you have now. Yes, some of the biggest stars you've seen, they're breaking records and streaming, but culture is just so much noisier and there's so many other things like it's hard for any one artist to reach those same levels. Or do you think that that's still possible?  [00:09:07] Benny Pough: It's just different iterations of it. And I don't think you can ever take the greatness of one artist and measure other artists to that, right? Now you can look at stats and go, well, did you, did this person have this many accomplishments as is that one? Then you start getting to the, you know, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kobe, right? It's just all different. So it's not the same measurement, but also just realize everyone has greatness and in their time of what was available and what the market was, they exceeded everyone's expectation. So that exists and it's going to exist beyond, you know, today until tomorrow. So it's really about, you know, how do you maximize the moments and all of that is really consistent on how much you commit to your craft. [00:09:56] Dan Runcie: I agree because I think about some of the stars right now, we still see it. It just may not be necessarily the most traditional sense the way people see it. I look at what Bad Bunny is doing right now. We haven't necessarily seen someone like him do what he's doing at the level that he's doing, whether it's the streaming records or even the sold-out concerts. Or even if you look at BTS, I think there's something to be said there for just how popular and strong that fan base is. And then you have your Drakes and your Taylor Swifts, these artists that I think even in 10 years will still be some of the biggest artists of their generation.  [00:10:33] Benny Pough: And that's all catalog. You know, artists that have great music, amazing songs, and are true performers. So, you know, once you get to that level, it puts you in a category by yourself,  [00:10:47] Dan Runcie: Right. And so much of this goes back to the work of these artists working with record labels, and a lot of the names that we mention, they got big pre-streaming. And because of that, I think they entered a phase where record labels did do a lot more of the development to help bring them along to the area that they are now. [00:11:07] Dan Runcie: But I think what we're seeing now is, because of all of the tools and all of the do-it-yourself functions that we're seeing that artists have the ability to do, by the time you're ready to join a record label, the hope is that you at least have some footing behind you, right? This isn't necessarily the place that's going to bring you from zero to a hundred. But if you could get from zero to sixty, you sign with them and then that can hopefully get you to a hundred. And I think that's the piece of it that's a little different than even what we may have looked at 10, 15 years ago with some of the names you mentioned where it was still a bit harder for them to break out without having the additional support earlier in their career.  [00:11:49] Benny Pough: That's the equivalent. I don't disagree with you. The entry points probably are, you know, different, but in some very similar. Ideally you are a thousand percent correct. You can't look to a label to develop you at this point, but when you think about, you know, some of the earliest stars they were developed outside of the label as well, right? So, you know, that kind of overlaps in that perspective. I think the root of all of this is starting with talent, regardless, whether you were, you know, in the past and things weren't as technologically advanced or right now, you know, you have the ability of all of technology. But you don't have all of the components that are going to help you, i.e. great songs, great producers, you know, and all of those true means that are going to really push you to the next level.  [00:12:35] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And I think, for you specifically, you've seen it with so many of the labels you've worked out, whether it's Motown or even the run you had with Def Jam as well. And I do want to talk specifically about the Def Jam run because, as someone that loves business case studies, this is a turnaround story and you had a front-row seat to push that forward. Tell us that story and let's walk through that process. What are the key things you think that really helped Def Jam turn things around from that '93 to, you know, going on into the 2000s run? [00:13:07] Benny Pough: So the crazy thing was, you know, for me getting into Def Jam was, it was amazing. The fact that they were a closed shop. You have to realize Def Jam never really let outsiders in. Everything was homegrown. They were one of the very few labels that was truly closed shop, right? Like, the people who started there from interns elevated all the way up, you know, into the higher senior positions, I mean, i.e. Kevin Liles, who is, you know, the person who reached out to me to come over to the organization. So given that opportunity and I was on the West Coast and wanted to get back home, I was at MCA Records and I wanted to get back home. So when I got the call, I was like, wow, I can go for one of the most renowned hip-hop labels in the world and get back home. So it was a no-brainer. Shortly thereafter I came on, Kevin and Lyor exited the building and L.A. Walked in. And that was, you know, an interesting dynamic because, one, I'd, you know, heard a lot about him and knew, you know, his abilities, but I didn't, wasn't certain on what my outcome would be because he didn't bring me in. [00:14:10] Benny Pough: It was a great union because he was an amazing, as we all know, music maker, hit kind of guy. I was a promotion guru, you know, at that time in my career. So, it gave me a great opportunity to, one, work with one of the best, which also made me one of the best, great music, strong promotions, i.e. put it all together in a pot, stir it up, you got to hit artists, right? And the talent was insane. We had one of the best A&R teams in the business, one of the best marketing teams in the business, one of the best promotion teams, publicity, et cetera. And then we all played as a unit. And I think that's, what's really important in any business, including the music business. When you get a real starting fire and the goal is to really bring on the gold, it's unstoppable with incredible artists and amazing music. So, you know, that's how all of that came together. And through that, you know, between Young Jeezy, Rick Ross, Rihanna, Ne-Yo. We had Fabolous, Justin Bieber walked in, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It was just an amazing, amazing time in music for us and that component of those artists, that team, and everyone wanting the big win put us right exactly where you have in this conversation.  [00:15:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And the other key thing with this, too, is that you also had a few leadership changes, as you mentioned. You had Kevin Liles, and then you had L.A., and then you were there during the Jay-Z stretch as well. And I'm sure with each of those, you were able to keep things moving just with the amount of talent that was coming through, but I'm sure that there were different things, whether it was leadership styles or things that the label needed at a particular time that was able to help it get to where it was during those 2000s.  [00:16:02] Benny Pough: So what's important, what people have to realize, and, you know, we put entertainment as though it's its own kind of business. It's still business. And you know, you have to learn how to manage up and manage down. And obviously, all the bosses have their own idiosyncrasies, but all of their goals is about winning. And obviously, you know, the people component is very important 'cause they're all specific on identifying the right talent, but also the right executives because true leaders understand, in the music business, the combination of both is what's going to help. You can have a star, but if you don't have people who can market it and promote it and put the music together, then it's going to take that star a little more. time Or you can have great executives, but you have artists that don't have drive. They're kind of confused on who their identity is. They write good songs, they don't write great songs, then it's kind of off balance. So when you get that real true alignment of both business and talent, that's when you have, and you look back at it, like go through the history of all of the strong labels. It's that marriage of really strong executives and really great artistry. So it doesn't change, right, where our business isn't different. We have just a non-traditional product.  [00:17:22] Dan Runcie: Exactly. I mean, at the end of the day, there's something that you're trying to sell. You understand the customer, you're trying to get what you can get out there.  [00:17:29] Benny Pough: Yes, sir.  [00:17:30] Dan Runcie: Looking back and you talking through some of these stories with these leaders making me think of that time as well. One of the stories I know that often gets talked about going back to around 2004, 2005, Def Jam is figuring out, okay, who is the artist that we want to propel, especially who is the woman artist we want to propel. And there was so much about whether the label is going to push Teairra Marí, or if the label was going to push Rihanna. And so much of that, I know that you were, had a front row seat in, what was that process like? And what is it like now just thinking about how it went and how, whether you could discern what we eventually saw play out, or if it was still tough to know at the moment how either career would've went? [00:18:15] Benny Pough: So let's be very clear. And especially in my upbringing in the music business and how I've always been disciplined and even in just me as an individual, I don't play sides. I have to give my all to each and everyone because we don't know. Like, I can't say this one is a hit and this one isn't. My responsibility in the pipeline is to make sure that I do my best to expose the product to the marketplace. In both of those scenarios, the company was behind both artists. Ultimately, the public is going to decide who are they going to weigh in more or not. But sitting here today, I wouldn't tell you I did more or less for either of those other than provide an amazing system for them to go through in order to have the opportunity to live their dreams. [00:19:04] Dan Runcie: And that makes sense. And I think that's the most fair way to do it.  [00:19:07] Benny Pough: Yeah.  [00:19:07] Dan Runcie: Were you surprised at all by the outcome or how things played out in terms of the public's response?  [00:19:14] Benny Pough: Rihanna's one of the greatest in the world. I mean, it speaks to its own, right? That speaks to itself and also realized she had, when you think about it, and there's very few artists, when you talk about classics, right? When you can go through hip-hop or R&B, like, classic albums, her first album was a classic album, right? So ultimately the people weighed in on what they appreciated from her at that point. And that in turn is about once where we started in this conversation, the artistry, it's the music and it's the team. So you got to think about a lot of artists who came through Def Jam through those years. We talk about the ones that, you know, went on and had massive success, but there were artists, too, that had great success. There were artists that make a good living and then there are artists like, it didn't work out because, obviously, the people did decide, not us. [00:20:06] Dan Runcie: Right. And that's what makes it so tough, I think, in any type of business, whether you're looking at other areas of entertainment, everything else, you could do the best thing that you think you want to put out. But there has to be some type of demand. There has to be something that is pulling artists through. And I think we saw that with the other singles that came off of Music of the Sun, Rihanna's first album. So fascinating times, it's really special to go back and think about it, especially now. I mean, who knows when we'll see the next album, but hopefully sooner rather than later. One of the things that stands out to me though, with the Def Jam time specifically, is just how much market share the record label was able to grow as well. And I wonder from your perspective, we're talking so much about balancing the business versus the art, so much of the work is focused on, okay, who can you promote? How can you push things? But there's also this zero-sum game of how can you get more market share than the other record labels that you're competing against and all of that. Was it ever a feeling like a bit of a tug of war between the art and the business of pushing these things knowing that there's this ultimate metric that the label's shooting for. But there's this longer-term aspect of trying to build and grow artists 'cause I know with other companies, it's kind of one of these things where you have the long-term goals, but how does that work with the quarterly earnings and I do think that market share is essentially that for record labels in the music industry.  [00:21:37] Benny Pough: So, a lot of that's going to be predicated on leadership. And, you know, the companies that I worked for were very artist-driven. And what was most important about having the artist was making sure that the artist got their best shot and performance. And so that was a driving force for us at Def Jam. You know, it's not being irresponsible, it's just a matter of, you know, investing in giving the music, the artists enough time to breathe. Everything is not going to just be determined in black and white. Everything's not going to be determined in dollars and cents. And the people who are aligned right from the business end, gas on, gas off. Someone has to read it, how much to invest in this artist because of what the tea leaves are versus investing in this artist, predicated on what the tea leaves are. If you have something that's not talking back or something that's not performing, then you can't throw enough money at it. They don't like it, but if you have something that's incrementally or even starts to just explode, then, you know, that's a better bet to hedge your money on. And the executives in the leadership, in the companies that have a really firm grasp of knowing when to gas on and gas off on which particular artist, as well as you know, the whole perspective of the business unit are the ones that have wins in both the artistry, people want to come in because, with the success of the artist, that's what people are excited about. No one signs to a label going, oh, you have the largest market share. They go, oh, Future's over there. Travis is over there. Gotti's over there, you know what I mean? That's what they're going to say. Khaled's over there. They're going to say that they're not going to go, oh, you guys had 11 share? No, they're not going to do that.  [00:23:22] Benny Pough: But in essence, all of it does work hand in hand, right? And on the other end with having successful artists, you have more market share, bigger profits. You know, now the executives, you're going to attract executives 'case they want to be there, right? Because good bonusing, good salaries, et cetera. So, a lot of that is really, really determined by the leadership.  [00:23:43] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you mentioned the Future, Travis, and Gotti 'cause that is your time at Epic. You were able to see this run. You were able to see those artists just push through as well and, obviously, a different record label. I'm sure things were likely different there, but you had worked at several beforehand. What is it like when you obviously know exactly what you're doing, you understand what's required to succeed in your role, but you know, that you're shifting into a different culture, shifting into a different environment? How do you adapt yourself as someone that has already seen success in different labels, but you're moving on to other companies and still understanding that, yes, you know how to make this artist pop, but there's different folks in charge and there's different things that are happening that you also need to be aware of as you're wanting to execute the best promotional campaigns possible? [00:24:39] Benny Pough: So Benny Pough is a brand. I'm not interchangeable in that way. My core values are my core values. And if people are hiring you or bringing you into their organization, they want the best of you. And obviously, and it's no different from going from, you know, the high school football team to the college football team. You have to learn how to adapt, but football is football. And in essence, you just learned in different plays from a different coach, and what they expect you and why they recruited you to bring you over is to bring your talent and show us exactly what we need to be done in order to win. So it doesn't become that complicated and don't forget once again, it's learning how to manage. Like, you can't come in with a crazy ego. You have to be adaptable, amenable, and willing to learn in someone else's environment, but also bring your best game to play.  [00:25:28] Dan Runcie: Were there any of the record labels you worked at where you feel like the culture or the way that they operated things was very different than the others? I know you were at Roc Nation Records after Epic but was any of them truly unique in this area?  [00:25:41] Benny Pough: I worked at seven different labels. All of them were different 'cause it's seven different leaders. And I think, like, the common thread with all of them is that they had an insatiable desire to win. So every person that I worked for wanted to win and they all saw a different path to winning, but that was the common thread. And then systems, you know, obviously, the ones who were successful had winning systems, and the ones who kind of meandered out had different kinds of systems. So I think a lot of it comes into play to the individuals, right? If everybody could you know, coach the New England Patriots, then everybody would be doing the job, right? It's the best of the best it's going to get, you know, to do that and sit in that seat.  [00:26:29] Dan Runcie: Right, exactly. And I know that sitting in that seat and having so much control over understanding what needs to be done is key with this. But I also recognize that you specifically with where you are in your career right now, you've worked at many different labels, but you're no longer working for a label. You've since left, you've left Roc Nation Records a few years back, and you are now building your own companies. Can you talk to me about that process, that transition, and why this was the right time for you to make that leap? [00:27:00] Benny Pough: Man, it's an amazing time in my life because now I have the opportunity of everything I learned, right? Think about the talent that I've identified over the years, the executives that I've groomed over the years, and realizing business and talent is something that I've been blessed to do. So now I can take all of that, what I've learned, and now apply it and reap the benefits for my family and friends. So I'm super, super excited about this time and being in the marketplace and having the freedom and flexibility to chase different and identify different kinds of talent, you know. Had I been at a major label, I wouldn't have invested in an app, right? Had I been in a major label, I wouldn't be launching my first conference. Had I been in a major label, I wouldn't be releasing a book. So it gives me, you know, the freedom and the latitude. But since I'd spent so much time learning the system, I am now approaching this from both a corporate perspective and entrepreneurial perspective, blended to now give the artists that I've signed as well as the ones that, you know, I manage and the business that I'm involved in, you know, the best opportunity to win because I've seen a lot of winning along the way. [00:28:19] Dan Runcie: Exactly and for you right now, you have Diverse Media, you have Kandiid, you also have real estate, and a few other business interests. How do you split your time right now? And writing a book as well, how do you split your time between each of these? [00:28:34] Benny Pough: Organization. It's no different than anything else. You know, whether you're working for someone or working for yourself, it's all time management, allocation of, you know, what needs to be done for this particular company today. You know, the things that need to be responded to, but most importantly, making sure that I'm reading the tea leaves properly because I'm the one that's investing. So it's, you know, being fiscally responsible is important and also taking the signs from the marketplace. As we talked earlier, the things that you learn along the way, just because I love it and no one else does, at some point I got to go to what they say versus how I feel because it's my resources, but I'm having a great time in this section of my life. [00:29:15] Dan Runcie: I got to imagine that's the biggest change as well, right? You're working for these record labels, part of these bigger corporations, someone else is always giving the final checkoff. And some of that may line up with what you want. Some of that may line up with what you don't want, but here, the buck stops with you, and there's sure there's so much freedom with that. How has that piece of it been? Because I know that that is likely one of the bigger changes or bigger shifts that comes with being able to run these types of businesses yourself.  [00:29:46] Benny Pough: It's exhilarating and scary at the same time. You know, what you realize or what I've realized along the way is, you know, was always indicative of having someone on the team to go, what do you think, or let's go through this one more time, you know, to help you formulate that opinion because all the opinions aren't yours and all decisions aren't just made by you. The buck stops with you, but you know, you can lean in and on other different resources inside of the company. When you're independent, it may not be as rich as far as having those qualified people to assist you in the decision-making. So I'm very tactical on how I approach things. Obviously, you have to get more analytic in determining, you know, how to proceed in situations in the companies that I'm invested in. And at the end of the year, it has to make sense, right? It's the bottom line. It has to make sense in order for it to continue.  [00:30:39] Dan Runcie: So let's walk through each of these 'cause I think there are ways to talk a little bit more about each of them, with Diverse Media specifically, global music, distribution, and publishing. This is your insights you're bringing. And you're like, I've been doing this for decades. I'm one of the most experienced people here. And I know what it takes to run the ship. What is the pitch then to artists who may want to, as you kind of put it yourself, they see the superstars that are still at the major record labels? You may not necessarily have the stable of the superstar yourself, but you're pitching yourself as your experience as well. How has that pitch been? 'Cause I'm sure that pitch is a little different when working for yourself as opposed to having the major label behind you.  [00:31:26] Benny Pough: So it's not for everyone, but it's for the right people. I've worked with some incredible talent as an independent now that I have been able to help groom them, teach them, develop them in a process that, one, a major label wouldn't look to them for. So we have different needs. It's a smaller investment for me in investing in someone who's at the beginning of their career. And we are more of a partnership because I'm going to be very specific as well of who we're going to give my time to. And for them, they get direct contact to someone who, guess what, can make a call and help them move a little bit further and faster than they would've on their own. So I enjoy that, that element of it, and it gives me the ability to stay very connected in the music space, but also grow and develop talent at the pace that they primarily would not get at a major. 'Cause once you get on the conveyor belt, it's your time. It's your time when they say it's your time. And I think what we're lacking now is the development, the true artist development. So that's what artists get the benefit from. And it works. [00:32:26] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I think, especially with the type of artist, you're looking at the sweet spot as well. There's so many artists that look at the technology medium as the means of growth or the means of exposure, right? I got to get on the streaming services. I got to get on TikTok. I got to start making reels and things like that. How much importance does that play for the artists that you serve? Because on one hand, as we're talking about at the beginning of this conversation, there can be so much emphasis on just having these songs or having these videos that are being put in this place, so you can write it up in numbers, but that still doesn't quite develop you as an artist, but it is one of these chicken and egg things. So how much of a focus is TikTok for you with the artist that you're working with?  [00:33:15] Benny Pough: TikTok is pretty much the hand were dealt in the music at this point. So you can't ignore it because that's what everybody's leaning into, but then there's a whole other means of developing talent outside of TikTok. And it all depends on what's specific for what you're looking for as someone in the executive seat. I mean, if I can see it on TikTok and everybody at a major label can see it on TikTok, okay, it's cool. But everyone's not going to see the same thing. Like, although it may have all of the mechanisms, it's making all of the growth, you know, week over week. It just may not be something comfortable for me unless you're doing, you're in the commerce game, right? You're just chasing money and that's fine, right? People do that well. I've always been someone who's been more about the artistry and people who are going to have staying power. So, you know, if you get lucky and you get one that becomes lightning in a bottle, that's great. But more importantly, you know, I'm a time over money kind of guy. You know, I'll develop you, you know, spend time with you, you and I like, yo, we figured out, you know, we committed to each other. And when it's okay, we might not have made the billion dollars, right? But we lived a good life and that's equally as important as those who, you know, get a couple million, then they go away.  [00:34:31] Dan Runcie: Right. And I feel like this lines up as well with Kandiid, which is your social media platform that you have. What role do you see it playing for artists and content creators?  [00:34:43] Benny Pough: It's the equalizer. It gives artists the opportunity to monetize on their content, which was crazy. When the pandemic started, we were one of the first platforms to actually introduce that, that people could actually pay to monetize their content. And obviously, you know, OnlyFans took on a whole other different dynamic, but also, too, that was web-based that wasn't an app. Like, we were an app that was in that space, you know, to put us into a different ball game and then having Soulja Boy come on and endorse the company and is also one of the co-founders involved, just opened up all kinds of vehicles and avenues for us as we started to grow and develop in the space.  [00:35:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's crucial. It's needed. And I think having the artists themselves as backers helps push it into a whole other level 'cause it goes back to the why does someone want to sign with the record label, they see who's involved with it. Why would they want to use a social media app or a new platform, they see who's involved with it. So that makes sense. The other piece of this, though, and we're talking about this a little bit before we recorded is what you're doing in real estate. You own a number of properties, even in my hometown, which I thought was pretty dope to hear about. Talk to me about that piece of it 'cause obviously very different from music, but there's so many wise reasons why it's a smart investment, but we'd love to hear what that journey was like for you, how it started and how you see it continue to develop. [00:36:07] Benny Pough: Mentally, I fell in love with real estate. If there was a passion, first thing I ever wanted to do was be a truck driver, just like my dad. And then the second thing was to own a home because we lived at a five-family home in White Plains, New York, where my parents had an opportunity to purchase this home from the owner who was moving back to Kansas. And when I realized the freedom that having a multi-unit at that time, you know, what it gave our family was exceptional. My father had the freedom, didn't have to work. My mother worked at the post office and was able to take care of us with, you know, the benefits from the health perspective and the building paid off the mortgage and put money in their pocket. So one day I said to myself, you know, I just want to be like my parents like when it's time for me to retire, I don't want to have to worry about how to make ends meet per se. So that was the impetus to this. Once I got into the music business and realized that, you know, it's one of the few businesses, especially for us as minorities, where, you know, you walk in and six months or a year, you could be making six figures, right? As a young person, there's no guidance, there's no financial planning, you know, there's no one telling you what the value of six-figure you might be making more than your Senator, right?  [00:37:23] Benny Pough: As a music person, so for me, staying in lockstep with what my parents were doing, I realized making this money, I had to prepare for my exit. So every bonus I bought a piece of property, you know, I bought a single family. I bought a single condo. I bought multi-units. I bought buildings. And to the point we were talking about, you know, I had even owned up to a city block at one point. So the benefit of the business was very, very giving to me and realizing that at one day it would end, that you'd have to create no different than any other entrepreneur, people who are out on their own in their own small business, you have to create your own retirement because one day you can be making a six figures or a seven-figure salary. And then the next day that's gone. It may never come back. So you can't live in the moment of just what you're receiving. You need to think about what you're receiving, also to be planning for the day when that's not there, right? So it's important, very, very important for young people or old people who are now, in their careers, figuring out the next steps is that you should always plan for the future.  [00:38:33] Dan Runcie: Well said, and I feel like I can hear some of the insights already that you're likely going to be sharing in the book you have coming out. [00:38:40] Benny Pough: Oh, absolutely.  [00:38:41] Dan Runcie: So talk to me a little bit more about the book. I'm sure that this conversation highlights some of those things that you want to share, but what are some of the things that we may not have covered that are the key themes from the book that you have coming out?  [00:38:54] Benny Pough: So On Impact spawned from a near-death car accident that took place in 2014, hit a tree at 90 miles an hour, sustained a level two concussion. That's when you black out from one to five minutes, L3-4 vertebrae fracture, bulging disk in my back, lacerated liver, and severed two feet of my small intestine. And in that moment, God put a book inside of me called On Impact, which is an acronym for intuition, mastery, pivot, authenticity, connection, and teamwork. And what it does is takes the reader for me with my first job that was, at 11 years old, delivering newspapers to modern day with an undercurrent of music because the majority of my life, I spent in the music business. And at the end of each chapter, I put together what's called a hit list or takeaways from each chapter for an individual to now apply to their daily lives and say pretty much if Benny could do it, I could do it, too. So it's a roadmap for interns to CEOs because I've done both.  [00:39:52] Dan Runcie: Nice. When's the date for it coming out?  [00:39:57] Benny Pough: September 27th, 2022.  [00:39:57] Dan Runcie: Exciting stuff. Exciting stuff, man. I feel like it will be, and I'm sure it already feels like it's going to be a ton of work leading up to it, but I am sure that once you're actually in the thick of it, you're seeing people resonate with it, like that's where the real reward comes from, right? You wanted to be able to share these insights, of course, life-changing and life-threatening challenges and accidents that you have to go through. But that's what gives you the clarity to be able to share this. So hopefully it can provide someone else and hopefully many others with the same insights. [00:40:31] Benny Pough: I think what happens for us is we don't get an opportunity to get the lessons when we need them. So, what I want this to be is a roadmap of giving people an opportunity to see, guess what, there are a lot of similarities for others just like myself. And now you don't have to struggle to figure it out. This is here for you. So I'm excited to share this with the world and give those who just need that little extra push and insight. Come get it.  [00:41:00] Dan Runcie: And they're in the right spot. Good stuff. Well, Benny, this has been a pleasure. We covered so much in your career, what you've been doing since then, especially on the entrepreneurial front, and also with other ventures, but for anyone that wants to keep tabs on you and follow what you're doing. Where could they follow and keep up with you?  [00:41:19] Benny Pough: All my socials are @bennypough, B E N N Y P O U G H. And come visit my website. bennypough.com anytime.  [00:41:27] Dan Runcie: Good stuff. Benny, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.  [00:41:29] Benny Pough: All right, Dan. [00:41:31] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

Music exec Benny Pough has shaped the hip-hop industry in a career that’s spanned from Motown Records to Def Jam to Roc Nation and now his own entrepreneurial pursuits. Benny joined me on Trapital to discuss his 30-year journey and where it’s heading next.


The defining feature of Benny has been his ability to spot and develop musical talent. He’s responsible for signing the likes of Future, Jeremih, and Yo Gotti, among others. That skill was initially forged from having an ear for what would catch on the radio, but has evolved in the streaming era. Despite this radical shift in music consumption, Benny says “stars will always be stars.”


After working at seven different record labels, Benny left the corporate world in 2019 and dove full-time into entrepreneurialism. He runs two separate companies — DVERSE Media and Kandiid. The former is a global music distributor and publisher, while the latter is a mobile app for creators to monetize their content. Benny also manages a diversified real estate portfolio. 


Like Benny’s own career, our conversation covers a lot of ground. Here’s our talking points: 


[3:13] How Benny Developed His Eye andEar For Talent

[4:42] Differences Between Hit-Makers andSuperstars

[6:10] How Has Streaming Changed Superstar Development?

[7:33] Record Label’s Role in Talent Development 

[13:07] Inside Def Jam’s Business Turnaround During Mid-00s

[16:02] Aligning Business andArt at Def Jam 

[18:15] Teairra Mari and Rihanna Coming Up at Def Jam

[21:37] Balancing Short-Term andLong-Term Business Goals

[24:39] How Did Benny Adapt To Working At Different Labels?

[27:00] Why Benny Became a Full-Time Entrepreneur 

[28:34] How Does Benny Split Time Across His Business Ventures?

[31:26] DVERSE Media’s Pitch To Artists

[33:15] TikTok’s Role In Talent Development Today

[34:43] Monetizing Content On Kandiid

[36:07] How Benny Got Into Real Estate

[38:54] Benny’s Upcoming Book



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Benny Pough, @bennypough

 

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TRANSCRIPTION


[00:00:00] Benny Pough: You can have a star, but if you don't have people who can market it and promote it and put the music together, then it's going to take that star a little more time. Or you can have great executives, but you have artists that don't have drive. They're kind of confused on who their identity is. They write good songs, they don't write great songs, then it's kind of off balance. It's that marriage of really strong executives and really great artistry.  

[00:00:35] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 


[00:00:55] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Benny Pough. He is a music industry veteran. And when I'm talking about people that understand promotion, understand what it takes to make an artist go from sixty to a hundred, this is the person to talk to. He has identified talent over the years, working at Motown, Perspective, Arista, MCA, Def Jam, Epic, and Roc Nation Records. He worked at Def Jam during one of the turnaround eras for the record label from 2003, all the way up to 2011. So we're talking about that stretch where you had Rihanna, and Jeezy, and Kanye, and so many artists that made a huge impact there. Then he also worked at Epic where he was able to see Future, and Jeremih, and Travis Scott, and Yo Gotti. And so many of the artists there. And now he is building his own company. He works at Diverse Media, which is a music distribution and global publishing platform. He also has an app called Kandiid, which helps content creators and artists connect more directly with their fan base. We also talk about some of the ventures he has outside of music. He does a lot in real estate. We're talking about some of the real estate he does, even in my hometown, which was pretty dope to hear how he understands the neighborhoods pretty well. So this is a great interview. If you want to talk about a mogul that understands each point of this industry, and with this upcoming book where he is sharing these insights as well. This is the interview for you. Here's my conversation with Benny Pough. 

[00:02:27] Dan Runcie: All right. Today, we got one of the music executives that has seen this industry and seen hip-hop through so many pivotal moments at some of the most storied record labels. Mr. Benny Pough. Welcome to the pod. 

[00:02:40] Benny Pough: What's up, Dan? Been waiting, man! I don't know why you kept me out here so long, but thank you for having me today.

[00:02:47] Dan Runcie: People have been asking for this one, people have been asking for this one. 

[00:02:51] Benny Pough: Yeah. Yes, sir. 

[00:02:52] Dan Runcie: And I mean, I think one of the reasons that people have been asking is because of your track record. You have identified some of the best talents in this field. Yo Gotti, Future, Jeremih, could go on with the list, but it's clear that you understand what you're looking for and you have an eye and an ear for this. What are you looking for when you spot talent? 

[00:03:13] Benny Pough: So, you know, being a promotions person is how I started in the business. Like, my first entry point was at Motown records, doing college promotions. And at that point, I realized that, you know, music changed my life when I was able to take a song, and from a college level, and have it played across the airways, 'cause you have to think about over the decades, the mass means of communication was radio. So that changed everything. If you got on the radio in any capacity, you know, it could take you from zero to sixty. So for me, listening to the radio and listening to music one way or another, my ear just got refined to what sounds good on the radio. So with the artists that you mentioned, I heard their music before I even met them. So it's something about, you know, obviously the spirit, you know, that ooze through them that comes out in their music that always just resonated with me. So the next step would be, you know, to meet them and obviously the artists that you mentioned, you know, from Future to Jeremih, Gotti, F.L.Y., it was something special about them that they'd already created for themselves. They just needed, you know, that opportunity to present itself for them to move on to the next level. 

[00:04:23] Dan Runcie: And I'm sure meeting that adds a whole nother layer 'cause you could have the voice but you're not just building someone that can record an audio track. You're trying to identify stars. What is it from meeting them in person that adds to it? Or is there something extra that you see when you're face to face? 

[00:04:42] Benny Pough: I think what's probably problematic now is that people can become instantaneously popular just from streaming. But never been in, you know, never really been in a studio 'cause you can record in your house. Never performed at a dive because that's not what's required. Never actually performed in front of an audience. So they're great songwriters, maybe producers, but the bar is so much lower on the entry point now, because any and everyone can do it. The difference between the people who make just hit songs or records, and the ones who are superstars is that they have the full package. Not only do they write or they perform, but you know, they have that whole je ne sais quoi, something special about them that people want to hear more and more, see more and more of them. And that's what the key is. And always has been, you know, since the beginning of music, of those people who attract and draw you in.

[00:05:37] Dan Runcie: You mentioned streaming and how it is easier and how it's very different from having a hit record as opposed to being a superstar. But do you think that even some of the visual aspects are becoming easier to replicate, too? Thinking about how someone could do so much of the production of music videos, or even the visual of what they can do, whether it's through Instagram and developing a following, but there's still, there could still be a disconnect between having that piece of it as well and really being someone that can push a record label and push themselves. 

[00:06:10] Benny Pough: So the power is probably the best time, music and arts, the power's in the creator. You know, ultimately as a consumer, we'll choose what we like at the value point that we will or not. But ultimately as a creator, you can get in where, before you couldn't, because there were, you know, gatekeepers. So now that you have the access and the ability to take your art to the masses. It's great. Now the level of what you have, meaning, you know, whether it's your music or your visual, if people like it, they're going to like it. And if they don't, if they feel it's inferior, then that's your presentation to the masses. So ideally you can't look at it as a negative, but, you know, obviously, as you grow, and you develop, and you have success. All of those levels start to heighten as well. 

[00:07:02] Dan Runcie: And do you feel like this has made it easier or harder or how different it is for the people that clearly have superstar potential, but they are coming up in this era where there is more noise? But on the other hand, because some of that noise can filter away some of the artists that don't necessarily have that potential and let the cream rise to the crop, I've heard people use both arguments about what it's like for superstars right now, but what's your take on the current stars now?

[00:07:33] Benny Pough: Stars will always be stars, and we're going to find them if that's the true course of action. You know, I worked with L.A. Reid, and I remember him always just telling me the story about Outkast. He didn't sign them the first time they performed for him. It might have been the second or the third, but because they had it and when they finally brought it back to him, you know, the rest is history. Did it make them lesser stars because they weren't signed the first time? No. What they went back and did was hone their skills, hone their craft. And at some point, the rubber hit the road and the rest is history, and that's happened countless times. Look how many times Michael Jackson was passed on. So I don't think the internet or that we're in a technological, you know, era that it changes the pursuit and the passion for people who truly have the desire and commitment to their art. You know, it just doesn't happen that I designate myself to be an artist today. And since I'm going to be an artist today, I'm going to be a star tomorrow, right? It doesn't quite work that way. And the people who have the wherewithal and the gifts, they're going to find it. 

[00:08:38] Dan Runcie: Do you think it's harder for people to hit those Michael Jackson levels though? Because I do think that he, of course, I can't think of anyone that was more famous at that particular time. And even some of the artists that you have now. Yes, some of the biggest stars you've seen, they're breaking records and streaming, but culture is just so much noisier and there's so many other things like it's hard for any one artist to reach those same levels. Or do you think that that's still possible? 

[00:09:07] Benny Pough: It's just different iterations of it. And I don't think you can ever take the greatness of one artist and measure other artists to that, right? Now you can look at stats and go, well, did you, did this person have this many accomplishments as is that one? Then you start getting to the, you know, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kobe, right? It's just all different. So it's not the same measurement, but also just realize everyone has greatness and in their time of what was available and what the market was, they exceeded everyone's expectation. So that exists and it's going to exist beyond, you know, today until tomorrow. So it's really about, you know, how do you maximize the moments and all of that is really consistent on how much you commit to your craft.

[00:09:56] Dan Runcie: I agree because I think about some of the stars right now, we still see it. It just may not be necessarily the most traditional sense the way people see it. I look at what Bad Bunny is doing right now. We haven't necessarily seen someone like him do what he's doing at the level that he's doing, whether it's the streaming records or even the sold-out concerts. Or even if you look at BTS, I think there's something to be said there for just how popular and strong that fan base is. And then you have your Drakes and your Taylor Swifts, these artists that I think even in 10 years will still be some of the biggest artists of their generation. 

[00:10:33] Benny Pough: And that's all catalog. You know, artists that have great music, amazing songs, and are true performers. So, you know, once you get to that level, it puts you in a category by yourself, 

[00:10:47] Dan Runcie: Right. And so much of this goes back to the work of these artists working with record labels, and a lot of the names that we mention, they got big pre-streaming. And because of that, I think they entered a phase where record labels did do a lot more of the development to help bring them along to the area that they are now.

[00:11:07] Dan Runcie: But I think what we're seeing now is, because of all of the tools and all of the do-it-yourself functions that we're seeing that artists have the ability to do, by the time you're ready to join a record label, the hope is that you at least have some footing behind you, right? This isn't necessarily the place that's going to bring you from zero to a hundred. But if you could get from zero to sixty, you sign with them and then that can hopefully get you to a hundred. And I think that's the piece of it that's a little different than even what we may have looked at 10, 15 years ago with some of the names you mentioned where it was still a bit harder for them to break out without having the additional support earlier in their career. 

[00:11:49] Benny Pough: That's the equivalent. I don't disagree with you. The entry points probably are, you know, different, but in some very similar. Ideally you are a thousand percent correct. You can't look to a label to develop you at this point, but when you think about, you know, some of the earliest stars they were developed outside of the label as well, right? So, you know, that kind of overlaps in that perspective. I think the root of all of this is starting with talent, regardless, whether you were, you know, in the past and things weren't as technologically advanced or right now, you know, you have the ability of all of technology. But you don't have all of the components that are going to help you, i.e. great songs, great producers, you know, and all of those true means that are going to really push you to the next level. 

[00:12:35] Dan Runcie: Agreed. And I think, for you specifically, you've seen it with so many of the labels you've worked out, whether it's Motown or even the run you had with Def Jam as well. And I do want to talk specifically about the Def Jam run because, as someone that loves business case studies, this is a turnaround story and you had a front-row seat to push that forward. Tell us that story and let's walk through that process. What are the key things you think that really helped Def Jam turn things around from that '93 to, you know, going on into the 2000s run?

[00:13:07] Benny Pough: So the crazy thing was, you know, for me getting into Def Jam was, it was amazing. The fact that they were a closed shop. You have to realize Def Jam never really let outsiders in. Everything was homegrown. They were one of the very few labels that was truly closed shop, right? Like, the people who started there from interns elevated all the way up, you know, into the higher senior positions, I mean, i.e. Kevin Liles, who is, you know, the person who reached out to me to come over to the organization. So given that opportunity and I was on the West Coast and wanted to get back home, I was at MCA Records and I wanted to get back home. So when I got the call, I was like, wow, I can go for one of the most renowned hip-hop labels in the world and get back home. So it was a no-brainer. Shortly thereafter I came on, Kevin and Lyor exited the building and L.A. Walked in. And that was, you know, an interesting dynamic because, one, I'd, you know, heard a lot about him and knew, you know, his abilities, but I didn't, wasn't certain on what my outcome would be because he didn't bring me in.

[00:14:10] Benny Pough: It was a great union because he was an amazing, as we all know, music maker, hit kind of guy. I was a promotion guru, you know, at that time in my career. So, it gave me a great opportunity to, one, work with one of the best, which also made me one of the best, great music, strong promotions, i.e. put it all together in a pot, stir it up, you got to hit artists, right? And the talent was insane. We had one of the best A&R teams in the business, one of the best marketing teams in the business, one of the best promotion teams, publicity, et cetera. And then we all played as a unit. And I think that's, what's really important in any business, including the music business. When you get a real starting fire and the goal is to really bring on the gold, it's unstoppable with incredible artists and amazing music. So, you know, that's how all of that came together. And through that, you know, between Young Jeezy, Rick Ross, Rihanna, Ne-Yo. We had Fabolous, Justin Bieber walked in, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It was just an amazing, amazing time in music for us and that component of those artists, that team, and everyone wanting the big win put us right exactly where you have in this conversation. 

[00:15:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And the other key thing with this, too, is that you also had a few leadership changes, as you mentioned. You had Kevin Liles, and then you had L.A., and then you were there during the Jay-Z stretch as well. And I'm sure with each of those, you were able to keep things moving just with the amount of talent that was coming through, but I'm sure that there were different things, whether it was leadership styles or things that the label needed at a particular time that was able to help it get to where it was during those 2000s. 

[00:16:02] Benny Pough: So what's important, what people have to realize, and, you know, we put entertainment as though it's its own kind of business. It's still business. And you know, you have to learn how to manage up and manage down. And obviously, all the bosses have their own idiosyncrasies, but all of their goals is about winning. And obviously, you know, the people component is very important 'cause they're all specific on identifying the right talent, but also the right executives because true leaders understand, in the music business, the combination of both is what's going to help. You can have a star, but if you don't have people who can market it and promote it and put the music together, then it's going to take that star a little more. time Or you can have great executives, but you have artists that don't have drive. They're kind of confused on who their identity is. They write good songs, they don't write great songs, then it's kind of off balance. So when you get that real true alignment of both business and talent, that's when you have, and you look back at it, like go through the history of all of the strong labels. It's that marriage of really strong executives and really great artistry. So it doesn't change, right, where our business isn't different. We have just a non-traditional product. 

[00:17:22] Dan Runcie: Exactly. I mean, at the end of the day, there's something that you're trying to sell. You understand the customer, you're trying to get what you can get out there. 

[00:17:29] Benny Pough: Yes, sir. 

[00:17:30] Dan Runcie: Looking back and you talking through some of these stories with these leaders making me think of that time as well. One of the stories I know that often gets talked about going back to around 2004, 2005, Def Jam is figuring out, okay, who is the artist that we want to propel, especially who is the woman artist we want to propel. And there was so much about whether the label is going to push Teairra Marí, or if the label was going to push Rihanna. And so much of that, I know that you were, had a front row seat in, what was that process like? And what is it like now just thinking about how it went and how, whether you could discern what we eventually saw play out, or if it was still tough to know at the moment how either career would've went?

[00:18:15] Benny Pough: So let's be very clear. And especially in my upbringing in the music business and how I've always been disciplined and even in just me as an individual, I don't play sides. I have to give my all to each and everyone because we don't know. Like, I can't say this one is a hit and this one isn't. My responsibility in the pipeline is to make sure that I do my best to expose the product to the marketplace. In both of those scenarios, the company was behind both artists. Ultimately, the public is going to decide who are they going to weigh in more or not. But sitting here today, I wouldn't tell you I did more or less for either of those other than provide an amazing system for them to go through in order to have the opportunity to live their dreams.

[00:19:04] Dan Runcie: And that makes sense. And I think that's the most fair way to do it. 

[00:19:07] Benny Pough: Yeah. 

[00:19:07] Dan Runcie: Were you surprised at all by the outcome or how things played out in terms of the public's response? 

[00:19:14] Benny Pough: Rihanna's one of the greatest in the world. I mean, it speaks to its own, right? That speaks to itself and also realized she had, when you think about it, and there's very few artists, when you talk about classics, right? When you can go through hip-hop or R&B, like, classic albums, her first album was a classic album, right? So ultimately the people weighed in on what they appreciated from her at that point. And that in turn is about once where we started in this conversation, the artistry, it's the music and it's the team. So you got to think about a lot of artists who came through Def Jam through those years. We talk about the ones that, you know, went on and had massive success, but there were artists, too, that had great success. There were artists that make a good living and then there are artists like, it didn't work out because, obviously, the people did decide, not us.

[00:20:06] Dan Runcie: Right. And that's what makes it so tough, I think, in any type of business, whether you're looking at other areas of entertainment, everything else, you could do the best thing that you think you want to put out. But there has to be some type of demand. There has to be something that is pulling artists through. And I think we saw that with the other singles that came off of Music of the Sun, Rihanna's first album. So fascinating times, it's really special to go back and think about it, especially now. I mean, who knows when we'll see the next album, but hopefully sooner rather than later. One of the things that stands out to me though, with the Def Jam time specifically, is just how much market share the record label was able to grow as well. And I wonder from your perspective, we're talking so much about balancing the business versus the art, so much of the work is focused on, okay, who can you promote? How can you push things? But there's also this zero-sum game of how can you get more market share than the other record labels that you're competing against and all of that. Was it ever a feeling like a bit of a tug of war between the art and the business of pushing these things knowing that there's this ultimate metric that the label's shooting for. But there's this longer-term aspect of trying to build and grow artists 'cause I know with other companies, it's kind of one of these things where you have the long-term goals, but how does that work with the quarterly earnings and I do think that market share is essentially that for record labels in the music industry. 

[00:21:37] Benny Pough: So, a lot of that's going to be predicated on leadership. And, you know, the companies that I worked for were very artist-driven. And what was most important about having the artist was making sure that the artist got their best shot and performance. And so that was a driving force for us at Def Jam. You know, it's not being irresponsible, it's just a matter of, you know, investing in giving the music, the artists enough time to breathe. Everything is not going to just be determined in black and white. Everything's not going to be determined in dollars and cents. And the people who are aligned right from the business end, gas on, gas off. Someone has to read it, how much to invest in this artist because of what the tea leaves are versus investing in this artist, predicated on what the tea leaves are. If you have something that's not talking back or something that's not performing, then you can't throw enough money at it. They don't like it, but if you have something that's incrementally or even starts to just explode, then, you know, that's a better bet to hedge your money on. And the executives in the leadership, in the companies that have a really firm grasp of knowing when to gas on and gas off on which particular artist, as well as you know, the whole perspective of the business unit are the ones that have wins in both the artistry, people want to come in because, with the success of the artist, that's what people are excited about. No one signs to a label going, oh, you have the largest market share. They go, oh, Future's over there. Travis is over there. Gotti's over there, you know what I mean? That's what they're going to say. Khaled's over there. They're going to say that they're not going to go, oh, you guys had 11 share? No, they're not going to do that. 

[00:23:22] Benny Pough: But in essence, all of it does work hand in hand, right? And on the other end with having successful artists, you have more market share, bigger profits. You know, now the executives, you're going to attract executives 'case they want to be there, right? Because good bonusing, good salaries, et cetera. So, a lot of that is really, really determined by the leadership. 

[00:23:43] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you mentioned the Future, Travis, and Gotti 'cause that is your time at Epic. You were able to see this run. You were able to see those artists just push through as well and, obviously, a different record label. I'm sure things were likely different there, but you had worked at several beforehand. What is it like when you obviously know exactly what you're doing, you understand what's required to succeed in your role, but you know, that you're shifting into a different culture, shifting into a different environment? How do you adapt yourself as someone that has already seen success in different labels, but you're moving on to other companies and still understanding that, yes, you know how to make this artist pop, but there's different folks in charge and there's different things that are happening that you also need to be aware of as you're wanting to execute the best promotional campaigns possible?

[00:24:39] Benny Pough: So Benny Pough is a brand. I'm not interchangeable in that way. My core values are my core values. And if people are hiring you or bringing you into their organization, they want the best of you. And obviously, and it's no different from going from, you know, the high school football team to the college football team. You have to learn how to adapt, but football is football. And in essence, you just learned in different plays from a different coach, and what they expect you and why they recruited you to bring you over is to bring your talent and show us exactly what we need to be done in order to win. So it doesn't become that complicated and don't forget once again, it's learning how to manage. Like, you can't come in with a crazy ego. You have to be adaptable, amenable, and willing to learn in someone else's environment, but also bring your best game to play. 

[00:25:28] Dan Runcie: Were there any of the record labels you worked at where you feel like the culture or the way that they operated things was very different than the others? I know you were at Roc Nation Records after Epic but was any of them truly unique in this area? 

[00:25:41] Benny Pough: I worked at seven different labels. All of them were different 'cause it's seven different leaders. And I think, like, the common thread with all of them is that they had an insatiable desire to win. So every person that I worked for wanted to win and they all saw a different path to winning, but that was the common thread. And then systems, you know, obviously, the ones who were successful had winning systems, and the ones who kind of meandered out had different kinds of systems. So I think a lot of it comes into play to the individuals, right? If everybody could you know, coach the New England Patriots, then everybody would be doing the job, right? It's the best of the best it's going to get, you know, to do that and sit in that seat. 

[00:26:29] Dan Runcie: Right, exactly. And I know that sitting in that seat and having so much control over understanding what needs to be done is key with this. But I also recognize that you specifically with where you are in your career right now, you've worked at many different labels, but you're no longer working for a label. You've since left, you've left Roc Nation Records a few years back, and you are now building your own companies. Can you talk to me about that process, that transition, and why this was the right time for you to make that leap?

[00:27:00] Benny Pough: Man, it's an amazing time in my life because now I have the opportunity of everything I learned, right? Think about the talent that I've identified over the years, the executives that I've groomed over the years, and realizing business and talent is something that I've been blessed to do. So now I can take all of that, what I've learned, and now apply it and reap the benefits for my family and friends. So I'm super, super excited about this time and being in the marketplace and having the freedom and flexibility to chase different and identify different kinds of talent, you know. Had I been at a major label, I wouldn't have invested in an app, right? Had I been in a major label, I wouldn't be launching my first conference. Had I been in a major label, I wouldn't be releasing a book. So it gives me, you know, the freedom and the latitude. But since I'd spent so much time learning the system, I am now approaching this from both a corporate perspective and entrepreneurial perspective, blended to now give the artists that I've signed as well as the ones that, you know, I manage and the business that I'm involved in, you know, the best opportunity to win because I've seen a lot of winning along the way.

[00:28:19] Dan Runcie: Exactly and for you right now, you have Diverse Media, you have Kandiid, you also have real estate, and a few other business interests. How do you split your time right now? And writing a book as well, how do you split your time between each of these?

[00:28:34] Benny Pough: Organization. It's no different than anything else. You know, whether you're working for someone or working for yourself, it's all time management, allocation of, you know, what needs to be done for this particular company today. You know, the things that need to be responded to, but most importantly, making sure that I'm reading the tea leaves properly because I'm the one that's investing. So it's, you know, being fiscally responsible is important and also taking the signs from the marketplace. As we talked earlier, the things that you learn along the way, just because I love it and no one else does, at some point I got to go to what they say versus how I feel because it's my resources, but I'm having a great time in this section of my life.

[00:29:15] Dan Runcie: I got to imagine that's the biggest change as well, right? You're working for these record labels, part of these bigger corporations, someone else is always giving the final checkoff. And some of that may line up with what you want. Some of that may line up with what you don't want, but here, the buck stops with you, and there's sure there's so much freedom with that. How has that piece of it been? Because I know that that is likely one of the bigger changes or bigger shifts that comes with being able to run these types of businesses yourself. 

[00:29:46] Benny Pough: It's exhilarating and scary at the same time. You know, what you realize or what I've realized along the way is, you know, was always indicative of having someone on the team to go, what do you think, or let's go through this one more time, you know, to help you formulate that opinion because all the opinions aren't yours and all decisions aren't just made by you. The buck stops with you, but you know, you can lean in and on other different resources inside of the company. When you're independent, it may not be as rich as far as having those qualified people to assist you in the decision-making. So I'm very tactical on how I approach things. Obviously, you have to get more analytic in determining, you know, how to proceed in situations in the companies that I'm invested in. And at the end of the year, it has to make sense, right? It's the bottom line. It has to make sense in order for it to continue. 

[00:30:39] Dan Runcie: So let's walk through each of these 'cause I think there are ways to talk a little bit more about each of them, with Diverse Media specifically, global music, distribution, and publishing. This is your insights you're bringing. And you're like, I've been doing this for decades. I'm one of the most experienced people here. And I know what it takes to run the ship. What is the pitch then to artists who may want to, as you kind of put it yourself, they see the superstars that are still at the major record labels? You may not necessarily have the stable of the superstar yourself, but you're pitching yourself as your experience as well. How has that pitch been? 'Cause I'm sure that pitch is a little different when working for yourself as opposed to having the major label behind you. 

[00:31:26] Benny Pough: So it's not for everyone, but it's for the right people. I've worked with some incredible talent as an independent now that I have been able to help groom them, teach them, develop them in a process that, one, a major label wouldn't look to them for. So we have different needs. It's a smaller investment for me in investing in someone who's at the beginning of their career. And we are more of a partnership because I'm going to be very specific as well of who we're going to give my time to. And for them, they get direct contact to someone who, guess what, can make a call and help them move a little bit further and faster than they would've on their own. So I enjoy that, that element of it, and it gives me the ability to stay very connected in the music space, but also grow and develop talent at the pace that they primarily would not get at a major. 'Cause once you get on the conveyor belt, it's your time. It's your time when they say it's your time. And I think what we're lacking now is the development, the true artist development. So that's what artists get the benefit from. And it works.

[00:32:26] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I think, especially with the type of artist, you're looking at the sweet spot as well. There's so many artists that look at the technology medium as the means of growth or the means of exposure, right? I got to get on the streaming services. I got to get on TikTok. I got to start making reels and things like that. How much importance does that play for the artists that you serve? Because on one hand, as we're talking about at the beginning of this conversation, there can be so much emphasis on just having these songs or having these videos that are being put in this place, so you can write it up in numbers, but that still doesn't quite develop you as an artist, but it is one of these chicken and egg things. So how much of a focus is TikTok for you with the artist that you're working with? 

[00:33:15] Benny Pough: TikTok is pretty much the hand were dealt in the music at this point. So you can't ignore it because that's what everybody's leaning into, but then there's a whole other means of developing talent outside of TikTok. And it all depends on what's specific for what you're looking for as someone in the executive seat. I mean, if I can see it on TikTok and everybody at a major label can see it on TikTok, okay, it's cool. But everyone's not going to see the same thing. Like, although it may have all of the mechanisms, it's making all of the growth, you know, week over week. It just may not be something comfortable for me unless you're doing, you're in the commerce game, right? You're just chasing money and that's fine, right? People do that well. I've always been someone who's been more about the artistry and people who are going to have staying power. So, you know, if you get lucky and you get one that becomes lightning in a bottle, that's great. But more importantly, you know, I'm a time over money kind of guy. You know, I'll develop you, you know, spend time with you, you and I like, yo, we figured out, you know, we committed to each other. And when it's okay, we might not have made the billion dollars, right? But we lived a good life and that's equally as important as those who, you know, get a couple million, then they go away. 

[00:34:31] Dan Runcie: Right. And I feel like this lines up as well with Kandiid, which is your social media platform that you have. What role do you see it playing for artists and content creators? 

[00:34:43] Benny Pough: It's the equalizer. It gives artists the opportunity to monetize on their content, which was crazy. When the pandemic started, we were one of the first platforms to actually introduce that, that people could actually pay to monetize their content. And obviously, you know, OnlyFans took on a whole other different dynamic, but also, too, that was web-based that wasn't an app. Like, we were an app that was in that space, you know, to put us into a different ball game and then having Soulja Boy come on and endorse the company and is also one of the co-founders involved, just opened up all kinds of vehicles and avenues for us as we started to grow and develop in the space. 

[00:35:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's crucial. It's needed. And I think having the artists themselves as backers helps push it into a whole other level 'cause it goes back to the why does someone want to sign with the record label, they see who's involved with it. Why would they want to use a social media app or a new platform, they see who's involved with it. So that makes sense. The other piece of this, though, and we're talking about this a little bit before we recorded is what you're doing in real estate. You own a number of properties, even in my hometown, which I thought was pretty dope to hear about. Talk to me about that piece of it 'cause obviously very different from music, but there's so many wise reasons why it's a smart investment, but we'd love to hear what that journey was like for you, how it started and how you see it continue to develop.

[00:36:07] Benny Pough: Mentally, I fell in love with real estate. If there was a passion, first thing I ever wanted to do was be a truck driver, just like my dad. And then the second thing was to own a home because we lived at a five-family home in White Plains, New York, where my parents had an opportunity to purchase this home from the owner who was moving back to Kansas. And when I realized the freedom that having a multi-unit at that time, you know, what it gave our family was exceptional. My father had the freedom, didn't have to work. My mother worked at the post office and was able to take care of us with, you know, the benefits from the health perspective and the building paid off the mortgage and put money in their pocket. So one day I said to myself, you know, I just want to be like my parents like when it's time for me to retire, I don't want to have to worry about how to make ends meet per se. So that was the impetus to this. Once I got into the music business and realized that, you know, it's one of the few businesses, especially for us as minorities, where, you know, you walk in and six months or a year, you could be making six figures, right? As a young person, there's no guidance, there's no financial planning, you know, there's no one telling you what the value of six-figure you might be making more than your Senator, right? 

[00:37:23] Benny Pough: As a music person, so for me, staying in lockstep with what my parents were doing, I realized making this money, I had to prepare for my exit. So every bonus I bought a piece of property, you know, I bought a single family. I bought a single condo. I bought multi-units. I bought buildings. And to the point we were talking about, you know, I had even owned up to a city block at one point. So the benefit of the business was very, very giving to me and realizing that at one day it would end, that you'd have to create no different than any other entrepreneur, people who are out on their own in their own small business, you have to create your own retirement because one day you can be making a six figures or a seven-figure salary. And then the next day that's gone. It may never come back. So you can't live in the moment of just what you're receiving. You need to think about what you're receiving, also to be planning for the day when that's not there, right? So it's important, very, very important for young people or old people who are now, in their careers, figuring out the next steps is that you should always plan for the future. 

[00:38:33] Dan Runcie: Well said, and I feel like I can hear some of the insights already that you're likely going to be sharing in the book you have coming out.

[00:38:40] Benny Pough: Oh, absolutely. 

[00:38:41] Dan Runcie: So talk to me a little bit more about the book. I'm sure that this conversation highlights some of those things that you want to share, but what are some of the things that we may not have covered that are the key themes from the book that you have coming out? 

[00:38:54] Benny Pough: So On Impact spawned from a near-death car accident that took place in 2014, hit a tree at 90 miles an hour, sustained a level two concussion. That's when you black out from one to five minutes, L3-4 vertebrae fracture, bulging disk in my back, lacerated liver, and severed two feet of my small intestine. And in that moment, God put a book inside of me called On Impact, which is an acronym for intuition, mastery, pivot, authenticity, connection, and teamwork. And what it does is takes the reader for me with my first job that was, at 11 years old, delivering newspapers to modern day with an undercurrent of music because the majority of my life, I spent in the music business. And at the end of each chapter, I put together what's called a hit list or takeaways from each chapter for an individual to now apply to their daily lives and say pretty much if Benny could do it, I could do it, too. So it's a roadmap for interns to CEOs because I've done both. 

[00:39:52] Dan Runcie: Nice. When's the date for it coming out? 

[00:39:57] Benny Pough: September 27th, 2022. 

[00:39:57] Dan Runcie: Exciting stuff. Exciting stuff, man. I feel like it will be, and I'm sure it already feels like it's going to be a ton of work leading up to it, but I am sure that once you're actually in the thick of it, you're seeing people resonate with it, like that's where the real reward comes from, right? You wanted to be able to share these insights, of course, life-changing and life-threatening challenges and accidents that you have to go through. But that's what gives you the clarity to be able to share this. So hopefully it can provide someone else and hopefully many others with the same insights.

[00:40:31] Benny Pough: I think what happens for us is we don't get an opportunity to get the lessons when we need them. So, what I want this to be is a roadmap of giving people an opportunity to see, guess what, there are a lot of similarities for others just like myself. And now you don't have to struggle to figure it out. This is here for you. So I'm excited to share this with the world and give those who just need that little extra push and insight. Come get it. 

[00:41:00] Dan Runcie: And they're in the right spot. Good stuff. Well, Benny, this has been a pleasure. We covered so much in your career, what you've been doing since then, especially on the entrepreneurial front, and also with other ventures, but for anyone that wants to keep tabs on you and follow what you're doing. Where could they follow and keep up with you? 

[00:41:19] Benny Pough: All my socials are @bennypough, B E N N Y P O U G H. And come visit my website. bennypough.com anytime. 

[00:41:27] Dan Runcie: Good stuff. Benny, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. 

[00:41:29] Benny Pough: All right, Dan.

[00:41:31] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2525 no How Does the Music Business Compare To Film And TV? https://www.trapital.com/podcast Best-selling author Zack O’Malley Greenburg and I took a break for a new Dad-girl duties to talk about the latest headlines in the music industry — namely Irv Gotti selling a 50-percent ownership stake in Murder Inc.’s past music recordings. He got $100 million from Iconoclast for the deal, plus another $200-million credit line to fund future media endeavors Irv has planned.  After the sale, Irv did an interview with Billboard and quipped that monetary-wise, the music industry is the “lowest form” in entertainment compared to film and television. Zack and I debated that during our episode comparing top-line revenues for each entertainment vertical, plus how Irv’s deal compares to other splashy catalog sales in the past two years.  We also dived into a guest post on Zack’s Substack about how “moods” has become the new classification for music, not genres anymore. Discovery algorithms deployed by streaming services have pushed listeners toward moods — and away from regionalism (e.g. Houston-style “chopped and screwed”) and loyalty to particular record labels. It’s also another tell-tale sign that Gen Z is more fluid, less rigid than prior generations with their labels.  Below are all the music-industry topics Zack and I covered throughout the episode, plus a special segment on becoming Dad’s in the past two months: [0:55] Baby Duties For Zack & Dan [4:11] Irv Gotti Calls Music Industry “Lowest Form” In Entertainment  [6:09] Zack Still Gets Royalties for “Lorenzo’s Oil” [7:52] Top-Line Revenues: Music vs. Movie Industry [8:59] New Artist Perspective Skewing Perception Of Music Business [11:04] Did Irv Gotti’s Deal Get Made Before Market Correction?  [13:08] Irv’s Deal Was For Masters, Not Publishing [13:50] Crowning Jewel of Murder Inc’s Catalog [18:23] Why Mood Is The New Musical Genre [19:26] Gen Z Uses Labels Less Than Prior Generations [25:53] Post Malone The Genre-Agnostic Artist [27:10] Did Streaming End Regionalism In Music?  [29:53] Fan Attachment To Record Labels Has Disappeared [32:30] Stories From Two New Girl Dads [38:21] First Music Show For The New Babies? Tiffany Ng’s article on music being categorized by moods, not genre: https://zogblog.substack.com/p/why-mood-is-the-new-musical-genre Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Our generation, in general, is pretty hung up on labels. You know, everything from music to sexuality, to whatever, you know, it's like things have to be classified and, you know, there's kind of an obsession over putting things in buckets. Whereas I think Gen Z has a lot more about fluidity and sort of like, you know, questioning why we need these labels at all to begin with, or at least, like, maybe we should just loosen up a little bit about them, which I think makes a ton of sense, you know?  [00:00:34] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:55] Dan Runcie: This episode is the first one I'd done in a little bit, took a quick break from recording. My wife and I welcomed our first child into the world last month, so took some time, focused on family, and finally, ready to get back into the swing of things. And there's no better person to do it with than my friend, Zack O'Malley Greenburg, who recently is coming back from paternity to leave himself. Him and his wife just had a kid in May, and the past couple of months, Zack and I have been talking about our journeys, both leading up to this moment and after. So, and given what we cover in both music and entertainment, it was a good time to catch up on a few recent headlines. First, we talked about Irv Gotti and the $300 million deal he did for selling his Murder Inc. Catalog, doing a deal with Iconoclast for further stuff in media, TV, and film. And this statement that Irv Gotti made about music being the lowest-monetized form of entertainment. Zack and I had some thoughts, so we broke that down. We also talked about one of the articles that was a guest post in Zack's ZOGBLOG that he had published that was about moods in music and how moods and music are definitely taking over genres, especially in streaming, and how that may shape the future of how music's released and monetized. We're getting away from these genre legacy terms like country, rap, and pop and moving more so into chill vibes, or other things that are named by hyperspecific Spotify playlists. And Zack and I saves a little bit of time at the end for Girl Dad Life, where we chatted about some of our mutual experiences and some funny moments that we've experienced so far with having kids and what's that's been like with newborns specifically, so hope you enjoy this episode. Here's my chat with Zack.  [00:02:42] Dan Runcie: All right. We're back with another episode. And I'm joined by my guy who is also probably with limited sleep, fresh off of paternity leave himself, Zack, how are you holding up these days, man? [00:02:54] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Not too bad. I think we got eight hours last night out of Riley, little Riley. So life is definitely getting a little bit more normal but it's, it's all good. sleep or no sleep. It's just a blast.  [00:03:06] Dan Runcie: Ah, love to hear it. I'll hopefully be at that eight-hour stretch soon, a couple of weeks behind you with a newborn, but we'll save some time at the end to catch up on Girl Dad Life.  [00:03:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: All right. [00:03:17] Dan Runcie: Let's start things at the top though. We got some big topics we want to dive into, but this first one that caught my eye, and it sounds like it caught your eye, too. This quote is from Irv Gotti, who just did this huge deal. Of course, Irv Gotti, CEO, one of the founders of Murder Inc. He was able to do a $300 million deal recently with Iconoclast, where he was able to sell his share, his 50% share of Murder Inc.'s masters for $100 million. And plus he also got a $200 million line of credit. That's going to be specifically used for future TV and film projects that are likely going to be based off of some of the Murder Inc. IP or other things. But in an interview that he did talking about this deal with Billboard, he said this quote, and I've been thinking a lot about it. [00:04:11] Dan Runcie: He said, "Entertainment industry is music, TV, and film," right? "The music business is the lowest form, and I just bagged a hundred million dollars for some shit I did 20 years ago." And the interviewer then follows up and it's like, you know, can you say more? And he says, "It's just the facts. More money is made in TV and with movies than music. It’s a non-disputable fact. We love the music industry and I love the music industry. There’s money to be made. But [it’s dwarfed by] the money made from TV and film. If I have 100 episodes of television and I own it, they’ll probably put a worth on it at $300 or $400 million. With $300 or $400 million, I could sell it at a 10 to 20 multiple. That’s three to six billion. This is why Tyler Perry is a billionaire. That’s why I sold my masters and did this deal with Iconoclast." So I pause and, although I get what he's saying and I think there is some interesting discussion there, I think there's a lot of nuances there. And I'm not quite sure if I'm completely on board with him on this. That said, I think Irv Gotti is great. I always loved what Murder Inc. did, but I think that this particular statement is a bit more nuanced, especially with what we've seen happening in music the past few years.  [00:05:29] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. I mean, you know, and I think he got into some fuzzy math there at the end. I mean, I don't know, you know, to multiply what by 10? And we're talking how many billion dollars? Like, when Disney pay a billion for the entire Star Wars library, so, I know that was a great deal for them and it's worth a lot more now. I think the math might be a little bit off, but I would kind of flip it and say, you know, sure. You know, there are movies that gross billions of dollars or, you know, hundreds of millions or into the billions, low billions. But like, there aren't albums that do that. Okay, but, you know, in terms of libraries, I mean, we just saw Bruce Springsteen get half a billion dollars for his. [00:06:09] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I mean, we're seeing, you know, masters in publishing go for hundreds of millions of dollars. The fact that Irv Gotti got a hundred million dollars for half of the Murder Inc. catalog. I mean, that's a wild number. No, not to sort of sleep on the Murder Inc. catalog, but, you know, it's not Bruce Springsteen. So, you know, I think that actually, the fact that he was able to get a hundred million dollars shows that the music industry is actually alive and well, right, in terms of the valuations. So yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure how much I, I, I agree with that, especially when you look at, you know, like for example, I was in a movie when I was a kid. The movie's called Lorenzo's Oil and I played Lorenzo. It's a, a big role, and I still get checks for 60 bucks, you know, every few months. And that's nice. And I'm sure that Nick Nolte and Susan Sarandon who were in it get much bigger checks, but, you know, they can't really go and, like, sell that catalog. You know, you don't have masters as an actor. I suppose you could go and sell the royalty streams or companies let you do that now, but it's not the same in terms of intellectual property. There's not like an equivalent to, you know, songwriting you know, like the sort of, the same kind of IP that, you know, at least, if you are an actor or an artist, or, you know, you would have access into your, to your masters in a way that you wouldn't as an actor unless maybe you're Tom Cruise and you negotiate some crazy backend deal. So, I think the grass is a little bit greener on the music side than Irv is, is giving credit for.  [00:07:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think the difference that you're highlighting is that it's not so much the top-line number. It's more so just how the business model under that number is distributed between who owns the underlying content and who doesn't. And I think if you're Irv and you're trying to compare this from this perspective of, if you're in music and you're trying to do a deal with Universal, whether you're an artist or you were an indie label at the time, trying to do a distribution deal or some type of joint venture. I forget exactly what Murder Inc. had at the time. But comparing that isn't the same to comparing what Tyler Perry is doing because even what Tyler Perry's doing, he is very much a unicorn in that right. There's not that many actors that are owning the underlying IP of the work that they're doing. Tyler Perry is the writer, the director, the producer for all of these things. That's why he is getting those things. And that is a very unique use case because in most cases, those are all different people in television. And I think, to be honest, TV is likely getting even murkier now because so much of the money that was going into these projects was based on this concept that these video streaming services could just have infinite growth and just keep growing and growing. [00:08:59] Dan Runcie: And now we're kind of reaching this point where people are like, okay, Netflix had 220 billion people paying $10, $15, almost $20 a month. Maybe that was as high as it could potentially go. I mean, I think there's plenties to break down there, but if those dollars aren't going to be as high as they may have been in that perspective, then we're going to see the shift. I did look at some top-line numbers, which are, I think, a good way to kind of balance things out. The music industry almost made $30 billion last year. I think it was around $28 billion last year for recorded music overall. So that does not include concerts or any of those things. I know that Irv isn't referring to that, but then if you look at the box office, I mean, that's more money than the global box office made, granted last year was a pandemic year so I know it's a bit tough to compare these things. And there's a lot more other things there, but it's not so much that this industry itself doesn't make as much money 'cause, yeah, you mentioned Bruce just got half a billion for all of his stuff. He owns this stuff and you know, that, you know, Born in the U.S.A. is going to be playing for decades, at least with, you know, as long as your Baby Boomers, and Gen X, and I guess even Millennials that are big Springsteen fans continue to listen. But I think that's different than how Irv might be looking at it. The thing is though it's not just Irv. I think that has its perspective. I think a lot of other folks have that perspective too, but I think it stems from when you are at the lowest rung of being the talent in the particular industry, I think music at that stage is likely a bit less advantageous than it may be for, you know, an actor per se. And maybe that's a bit of the difference where if you're a musician that's just signing on for a deal, it's going to take a lot longer for you to maybe recoup that money than an actor would, you know, signing on for an equivalent level size of something. But that's definitely very different than putting that as a global claim about the broader industry.  [00:11:04] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: That's true, but I, I would still argue that if you are an artist getting into the game as a, as a musician, the default would be that you would probably have shared ownership of your masters. If you were an actor getting into the acting game, the default is like you get an okay chunk of money for one movie, you know. It doesn't come with IP in the way that it would. And so it's not until later in your career that you can start to say, Hey, I want to be a director. I want to be a producer. Until you start to get, or, you know, or maybe you're kind of DIY from the beginning and, and you're doing it, all of it yourself, but that's, that's so unusual. You know, I don't know. I mean, I, I think the other thing too, is that like, and maybe this is part of what Irv was alluding to, I mean, that a hundred million dollars that he got, that to me seemed like a number that was more along the lines of the stuff we were seeing, you know, six months to a year ago before interest rates doubled. And we kind of stopped hearing about these big deals. So I wonder if that deal, and I kind of asked around a little bit and I couldn't get a, a firm answer, but I would suspect that that deal, you know, was agreed upon you know, like last fall or something before the economic environment changed and, you know, and it just didn't close until now 'cause these, these deals can take six months to a year to close and, and that's why, you know, you've got such a good multiple. But like these days, you know, when the interest rate is, like, gone from 3% to 6% or whatever, I guess it depends on the kind of deals you're doing, but, you know, that's a huge difference. And it sort of like makes buying music assets a lot less interesting because you know, when just, like normal financial instruments, you know, and not to get, like, too nerdy about it, but, you know, in the bond market are generating something closer to what a music catalog would do. I think, like, these big financial institutions are going to be more inclined to kind of like lean on their expertise rather than trying to, to do these exotic things or, you know, get involved with, with music catalogs and intellectual property and that sort of thing.  [00:13:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I could see that. I think the other piece of this, too, that may get lost in some of the details, especially, is that this isn't a publishing catalog deal. This is masters, at least partial ownership there, or not partial ownership, but at least the revenue generating from at least half of what Irv had, and at least in streaming, your recorded revenue from the master side is at least three to four times higher than what the publishers are getting. Of course, there have been some, there's some recent changes where the publisher royalty has increased. I think increased from 10 and a half percent to 15.1% recently. So that'll help, but still, that piece of it does in many ways, so even, let's say you were to compare this number for the Murder Inc.'s masters to let's say what Justin Timberlake got for his catalog deal. You can't necessarily compare that because Timberlake's was for the piece of the music sound recordings that were less valuable, relatively speaking, at least currently than this. So I do think sometimes, like, those things do get lost in it, but it would be interesting to see, yeah, what would that be like now if those deals were starting to shine a closer look if those conversations were happening? I think it would be interesting and also a bit unique because this deal is with Iconoclast. This isn't one of the standard players that we've seen that are handing out, you know, the nine-figure checks to these companies. Who knows what the conversations could have been like with Hipgnosis or Round Hill or some of the others. I feel like he may have alluded to that to some extent in the interview, but it was hard to get a sense specifically. [00:14:52] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. And you also wonder, I mean, how much, if it was about, you know, being able to say, oh, now we have a catalog that, like, there is some Jay-Z in there. There's some DMX in there. I think there's some J.Lo in there. You know, in addition to like a lot of Ja Rule and Ashanti, and you know, but that's kind of like a trophy to have that. You know, I don't know that it's quite so often that you know, anything by Jay-Z comes up. I think it was, there's a piece of Can I Live on there, which, which is pretty cool, so, you know, that that might have added, you know, a certain premium to it.  [00:15:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I was going to ask you that. What do you think is the crowning jewel of this catalog? I mean, every one of these catalog sales, it has the typical 80- 20 or the power law thing, where there is a few big songs that are really generating everything. I mean, you mentioned J.Lo. I mean, I'm Real has to be one of the biggest Murder Inc. songs they had, or maybe Always On Time with, you know, Ja Rule and Ashanti. Are there any others that stick out? [00:15:48] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I mean, the Jay-Z one for sure. Which DMX song was it? It was a pretty big one. I think it's What's My Name?  [00:15:54] Dan Runcie: Oh, What's My Name. Oh, that, that was on X's catalog. That was Ruff Ryders and Def Jam.  [00:15:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh, that was. Okay.  [00:15:59] Dan Runcie: But Jay-Z, they, they were on It's Murda though, right? It's Murda from Ja Rule's Venni Vetti Vecci that had Jay and DMX.  [00:16:07] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: That's right. Okay. [00:16:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Is that right? [00:16:09] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: It was, it was some, it was like somewhere in the discography. I was looking at it though. Oh, well, I'll track it down someday. We'll have to talk about it the next time. But there was, there was a big DMX single that somehow ended up on there that caught my eye. But, you know, like a lot of the Ja Rule stuff, I think. I think maybe Livin' It Up was on there.  [00:16:26] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah, that was big. [00:16:27] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: That's a huge one. [00:16:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, like Down 4 U, like Down Ass Bitch, like, you had a few of those that were in it. I think Ashanti had some big ones, too, like Foolish. Foolish was huge.  [00:16:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Oh, yeah, here. Okay, it says What's My Name. It said that he produced What's My Name. So that's why, even though it wasn't... [00:16:45] Dan Runcie: Oh, interesting. [00:16:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. What's Luv? That's a huge one.  [00:16:50] Dan Runcie: Oh, that's a big one. Yep. With Fat Joe and Ashanti, yep.  [00:16:53] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Can I Live, Holla Holla, you know, so there's, there's some really good stuff on there. And I think you're right. It's probably, there's a couple, you know, without us having a, a look at the statements, it's hard to know, but it, it wouldn't surprise me if one of those songs is just like a sleeper hit that just continues to, I mean, we know it's a big hit, but it, it could be, like, way more lucrative than we ever imagined. Or one of those could have been in a movie, you know, more, more than the others or something like that. So, you know, I think a lot of these songs are going to be, actually, that's what one of the lawyers I reached out to about this said. He was like, you know, there's a lot of stuff in there that is very interesting from the sync perspective. You know, to the sort of like Millennial, Xennial crowd that grew up on that that would love to see it in movies, and TV, and video games, so yeah, that could be part of it, too. [00:17:38] Dan Runcie: Big on sync. Also, big on the likelihood of being turned into some viral TikTok trend. I don't know if that is a quantifiable metric they're using, but I would, I think it is. I just think of so many, the TikTok things that blow up and that era of early 2000s, late 90s hip-hop has done really well in a lot of ways. And sometimes it's so random, but I do think that that Murder Inc. sound captures so much of that. It's only before long that someone finds some, like, weird thing that happened in one of the music videos, and then that then becomes viral, and then it becomes like a whole TikTok viral campaign.  [00:18:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yep. Yep. Although don't know how, how much they'll be getting paid from TikTok, but that's a whole other, that's a whole other story. [00:18:23] Dan Runcie: We'll have to save that one for our next, for the next chat. We got to see how that whole situation firms up. But so the next topic that we want to talk about is a fascinating piece that was a guest post that was written by someone that you had worked with, Tiffany, and she wrote a really interesting essay on why mood is the new musical genre. And when you picked me on this, I read it, and it stuck out because I was like, you know what? It's a hundred percent right. If you look at Spotify and you look at how all these streaming services have shifted, how music is being consumed and listened to. Yeah, it isn't rock, pop country, hip-hop. It's a lo-fi chill vibes. It's, you know, backyard barbecue hang. It's all of these super niche things that reflect a lot more of where music listening is going. And I could only imagine there's so many broader implications that it can have, but I'd love to hear what you think about it.  [00:19:26] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. So I've been out on paternity leave and, you know, not really writing, but Tiffany who's a really great writer and, and was doing some research for me while she was a senior at, at my alma mater, at Yale. And, and she and I were actually, we worked on the same, basically, arts and culture desk on the school newspaper, you know, whatever it was, 15 years apart. So she, while I was out, she wrote this great long piece kind of talking about how, you know, from her generation's perspective, this idea that, yeah, that you would classify things by genre or really identify yourself as like a hip-hop fan or a rock fan or whatever, is all kind of moot. It's like an old people thing. And that her generation is more about moods and, and like you say, it's backyard barbecue or whatever it is. And people don't, you know, really care about genres so much anymore, you know, amongst the sort of Gen Z crowd, and she, you know, really kind of dug into some, I think, great examples of it and talked about Spotify classifications and how they put together, Audio Auras that give you your kind of, like, yearend picture of your listening tastes. And I think it's a really great point. And I think that, you know, our generation, in general, is pretty hung up on labels. You know, everything from music to sexuality, to whatever, you know, it's like things are, have to be classified and, you know, there's kind of an obsession over putting things in buckets. Whereas I think Gen Z is, is a lot more about fluidity and sort of like, you know, questioning why we need these labels at all to begin with, or at least like, maybe we should just loosen up a little bit about them, which I think makes a ton of sense, you know? I mean, I remember when Halsey put out that song, New Americana, and she talked about being raised on Biggie and Nirvana. And I was like, yeah, that's me. Like, I get that. But that always felt weird when people were like, well, what kind of music are you into? And I was like hip-hop, and grunge rock, and like some other stuff. That was always sort of weird, but I think it's good to see the next generation kind of embrace that more and that's what the article kind of dug into. [00:21:22] Dan Runcie: The label and generation identification is a huge thing. Do you remember growing up when the labels of how we were and folks were in middle school and high school was such a thing that people went down the road, it was like, oh, you're a skater? Oh, then you listen to Linkin Park. Then you listen to this and you dress, and you wear like JNCO jeans, like with the chain hanging from the back of your pocket to the front or whatever. You're a prep? Okay, you shop at Abercrombie & Fitch. You're probably wearing Adidas Superstars and you probably, I don't know, clothes from, like Structure or like Express, and stuff like that. Like, there were all these buckets, too, and then it extended as well. If you listen to hip. You probably wore Timberlands. You probably had Nike Air Force 1s, Ecko, or whatever the popular clothes were at times. Like, all of these things and this generation and timeframe is just like, no, that's not the case. And I think this mood thing factors in a lot of that. I think we're almost seeing this to some extent with things we've kind of just seen, like regionality as well.  [00:22:29] Dan Runcie: Like, I've heard a lot of people talk about how from, you know, certain generations it's like, oh, like, well, people in Seattle, they dress like this. Like, you could go to Seattle, walk or like, you know, the Pacific Northwest and everyone's wearing flannel like it's a Nirvana music video or whatever. Or if you go down south, like I would visit my cousins in Florida growing up and they would be listening to Ying Yang Twins and all these other songs that were popular at the time. And we just weren't listening to that stuff nearly as much growing up in the Northeast. And it hit that vibe. And I think now, too, because of the internet, so much of that generationality piece just, or not the generationality, the geographical identity is also dissipated, too, where people in Seattle can, you know, feel no different, especially from a youth perspective, could feel no different than someone growing up in Miami or Fort Lauderdale or whatever it is. So I'm curious to see how is that going to shape? Even the legacy labels that we do have on things. I think that the Grammys is, you know, clearly an institution that has prided itself on the number of options that it's given particular artists to have and celebrate their particular genre of music based on these legacy labels. I think it takes a lot of time for those things to change, but will we see that? Could you eventually see things where I think pop radio in a lot of ways? And radio, in general, is still one of the things that's still holding onto this generational, you know, label divides much to a fault because I think there's still certain types of artists that are precluded from being heard on Z100 or being heard on your mainstream stations, so, I think that it may still take time to get there, but I'm curious to see what did that look like 20 years, 20 years from now? Will we still see the same restrictions on radio and in award ceremonies? 'Cause I think those are the two areas that feel harder to disrupt than the broader culture that already has been disrupted by it. [00:24:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. And one of the other things that Tiffany wrote about in this article which you, oh, you can read it, just it's zogblog.com, and you can go through the newsletter. It's the latest post. I'll be back writing in a week or two, I think. But anyway, it's up there on zogblog.com and she said, she pointed out the IGOR one for best rap album, even though it's not really a rap album. Like, it's already happening, right, like, in categories at the Grammy's. So, right, like how, how soon until we start to change that or, or even have sort of like, broader, you know, kinds of labels. Like, what if it's like, you know, best chill album, you know? Best barbecue album? I don't know. So I'd love to see how that, how that kind of turns out. But, man, I remember, you know, in the nineties, when you would sort of put on your AOL profile what kind of music you listen to. A lot of people sort of also define themselves in opposition to certain genres. They're like, I listen to anything but country and rap, you know? That, I remember a lot of people that, anything but rap, anything but country. That was sort of their battle cry. And you know, I just don't see too much of that anymore. And I think that's a great thing, you know, like, why should you have to limit your taste? It's like, you know, you don't want to be a traitor to, to your emo, whatever, by, by listening to hip-hop. But now we have like emo hip-hop. It's great. I think it's cool that we have, you know, all these kinds of like mixings and subgenres. [00:25:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah, if anything, I think I'll see the angst more for particular artists themselves and not necessarily the broader genre, right? Like, I know there's people that, you know, they just don't like Post Malone for a number of reasons. And it's like, I get it, but you can't put Post Malone in a musical category to be like, oh, I don't like this type of music 'cause I guarantee you, whatever, you know, genre of music, you want to put him in, there's going to be an artist that sounds like him, may not look like him, may not have a fan base that, you know, vibes the way that his does, but you're probably going to like something of that, you know, type of thing, right? [00:26:30] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've gotten into so many arguments about how to classify Post Malone. Some people say he is hip-hop, which I don't really, I wouldn't classify him as hip-hop. Is he pop? I guess. I guess that's what you'd call it, but, you know, I wouldn't really say that he's rock. [00:26:45] Dan Runcie: I would call him pop, yeah. [00:26:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Pop yeah. Pop or sad frat party or something, you know? I mean, mood. I think mood is a great way with him, too.  [00:26:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I mean, is there any other broader implication that you can think of with how moods will just continue to shift over time and how moods may play a bigger role in music, either how it's consumed or how it's monetized?  [00:27:10] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I mean, I think really what's on my mind about that right now is I go back to what you were saying about regionalism. And, you know, I wonder if sort of this movement away from labels of genre, more toward labels of mood has to do with the fact that you know, there's sort of like, you know, national moods almost that you can attach to music in a way that you couldn't when things were sort of regional. And, you know, there was that whole moment where radio, sort of like the consolidation of radio, that kind of switch over to like the clear channel model. And you, you had sort of like the same, you know, whatever it was, KISS-FM or something like that, and you had these big playlists that were just kind of on rotation, the same playlists like all over the country, and you kind of lost a little bit of that local flavor. But actually, you know, as people were lamenting that the whole thing shifted over to streaming. And there's no regional streaming, right? And so I think it sort of follows that mood would sort of like become a new means of classification because once you eliminate the regional aspect to it you know, I don't know, it's, it's sort of like it maybe unnecessary movement to happen over time. And I think, you know, There's some cons to losing the regionalism and, you know, you get some unique sounds and certainly within hip-hop, it was really cool to see like Houston versus Bay Area, you know, like very specific microclimate-type sounds that you could get that, that, you know, within kind of bubble up and percolate into different like more mainstream hip-hop sounds. But you know, then again, I think it's cool to just other genres meld into other genres and have that be kind of the mixing that happens too. So, you know, pros and cons, but I think, I think there are a lot of pros to the mood thing over the genre label thing. [00:29:00] Dan Runcie: So before long, we're going to have to pour some out for the dirty south hip-hop playlist. Got so much play over time.  And maybe this regionalism trend or trend away from regionalism is just the way things are going. This is a sports analogy, more so, and there's other reasons behind it. But I look at what's happening in college sports right now with these major teams joining the Big Ten, joining the you know, or the Big East no longer really being a thing, and how so much of that is just a sign of where things are right now. And so much of what people really appreciated about what these conferences could tell you about a particular place in the country, that's not necessarily going to be the case if, you know, Texas and its whole culture is coming and joining, you know, joining the ECC, right? It's just very different.  [00:29:53] Dan Runcie: And I think to bring this conversation full circle, too, it's like, I've heard through the grapevines about record labels that had wanted to start their own metaverse experiences and being like, okay, this is the record label's metaverse experience. And then someone wisely told them, Hey, no one cares about your record label. Like, that's not the draw here. Like, I mean, in the folks that are inside the industry, of course, you can share the accolades and stuff like that. But the fans care about the artists. They're not going to be drawn. Like, the days are done of people being like, oh yeah, no Def Jam, like, in the heyday, I'm there. Like, that's just not how it works anymore.  [00:30:29] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. You know, I mean, if you're really in the business, you know, which labels have which ethos. But, you know, it, it really has blurred together more and more. And yeah, I think in the old days, you know, people would be like, oh, I'm an Atlantic records fan. You know, because when they pulled out that vinyl, you know, they saw that logo, and they knew that there was a certain type of artist and that Atlantic Records were a curator of the type of music that they liked. And maybe it wasn't the same genre always, but there was, you know, they knew that it would be good. But if you're a casual listener, there's not really even an opportunity to easily know what label anybody is on. So why would you care? And I think, especially since you know, I mean, I think there was a heyday in the nineties of hip-hop artists shouting out the record labels that they were on or that they owned and that was sort of, you know, important. Definitely, like Ruff Ryders had a very different ethos from Bad Boy. And, you know, you might classify yourself, you know, more in one bucket or another and identify with that. But I think so much of that has just dissipated in the streaming era, 'cause yeah, you're not looking at a physical thing. So you know, who knows, who cares what labels anybody on, and why the hell would you really want to go to an individual label metaverse thing? I'm glad somebody told them that they shouldn't be doing that anymore.  [00:31:43] Dan Runcie: Definitely. No, definitely. All right. Well, we saved some time at the end for the section that's near and dear to both of us, as, you know, if you followed either my writing or Zack's writing recently, you know, that we both had kids very recently. So Zack had his daughter in May. I had mine in June, and it's been great to just, you know, connect and bond and hear more about how things were for both of us leading up to this point and now after. So I figured now that we're on the other side of it with relatively newborn and young children, we could have a little section here called Girl Dad Life, where we each share one interesting or funny experience that's happened for both of us trying to navigate fatherhood here. So Zack, I'll let you start. What's your experience been like? And what's yours? [00:32:30] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. You know, less than a, like a specific story, it's really more about an overall vibe mood, if you will. Man, I know it sounds corny, but the moment you become a parent, this compartment opens up inside of you and it's just filled with a new capacity to love that you didn't know was in there. And it just is like overwhelming and beautiful and is, is the best thing that's ever happened to me. And I think that one of the things, you know, like I think the best advice I would give is, is that there's no, like, right way to do it. And people have been having babies for a very long time without all the gear and whatever, and we've survived, as the human race. But I think the thing that, that always surprises and delights me is that you know, Riley, despite being eight weeks old, I mean, from the very beginning, has been a little human who, who knows what she wants. And it's like pretty straightforward. If she's crying, you know, she needs to go to sleep. She needs food or she needs a diaper change. And if she doesn't like that, it's time to put on, like, any number of different songs or albums that she likes. And she's, talk about a musical omnivore. Oh, my God. She loves, like, Shirley Bassey, Big Spender. She loves Biggie, Mo Money Mo Problems. You know, she's really like, no genre constraints when you're an infant. And I think it's just really cool to see that, you know, she could be crying and then that beat comes on and she starts smiling, you know? [00:34:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I would also say like, I, I read this book called Bringing Up Bébé, and it's all about the French method of child-rearing. And they're really big into this idea of, like, the baby is a human with thoughts and preferences the minute they come out of the womb and sort of just like paying attention, you know, and, and also giving them a second to try to figure whatever it is out. Like, if your baby starts to cry, you know, don't necessarily just, like, drop everything, rush in and, you know, give your baby a second to try to figure it out. And sometimes they won't. And then you go and tend to them, but, like, if you don't give them a chance to figure it out as babies, then they'll never be able to sort of figure it out on their own as adults. So I thought that was a really cool insight. How about you?  [00:34:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's funny. You recommended that book to me, a couple of other friends did too. And I read it and yeah, it was a really an interesting read and it was a good reminder of, like, yeah, people have been doing this for plenty of years, and just because your baby doesn't have the newest, fanciest insert whatever, stroller, bassinet this and that, like, the fact that you're thinking about this to this extent means that you'll probably be fine and the baby will be fine. But a few funny stories that we have that I could share, so one of them when we were in the labor delivery phase, one of the folks that was in the room with us, she was a volunteer doula that was helping with a few things. She had asked me, she was like, oh, did you want me to take pictures? Because she could see I was trying to, like, multitask. My wife had wanted me to take some pictures and I was like, yeah, sure. So then not only did she take pictures, she took a video of everything, from like the moment of, you know, when my wife started pushing to everything after. And then I remember like when, you know, my wife was still recovering, I watched it, and I was like, oh wow, I did not realize she captured everything. And then my wife was just like, I do not want to see that. And then I think she heard me watch it. And then she was like, okay, I have to see that. She was like, was that me? Like? I was like, yes, yes, that was you. But it's okay. You know, completely normal, unexpected. So that's, what's there. But, yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree with you more on, you know, everything from the love, life-changing perspective, you know, something we had wanted, and, you know, it's been so good from that perspective and just pick it up on cues and stuff. There are definitely a few funny moments that we'll always crack ourselves up as 'cause you have to, right? It's like, I mean, you know, we both know what it's like with the whole sleep deprived, everything and, and all that. But you do start to notice the baby's patterns and stuff. And like how they'll react to, you know, when you're either about to feed or when you're about to give a bottle or any of those things and just the instant reaction, so. It's something else. But, you know, it's been good. I mean, we're recording today. Today's actually one month since she was born.  [00:36:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh, my gosh.  [00:36:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Time has is flown by, time has flown by. And this is, like, the first podcast I had done since then. Everything else up to this point had been pre-recorded stuff we planned, so slowly getting back into the swing of things. I think I'll most likely be back in like a full-time perspective, maybe sometime later this month, but I think, you know, just going slowly week by week there. It feels good to have the work stuff to mix in with everything, but like, life-changing in the best way. [00:37:03] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, well so you're coming up on five weeks and actually one of my favorite moments so far happened at five weeks. My wife and I went out with Riley  and we went out for dinner at a sidewalk cafe in New York. And, you know, Riley's, like, sleeping, we're having a great time and chatting and eating. And you know, after maybe like an hour, she starts crying, and so I take her out and I'm kind of rocking her, and she's crying. And there are these ladies sitting next to us  and I was like, oh, I'm so sorry.  And they're both like, no, really don't worry, we have babies at home. And my wife goes, do you have any advice for us? And the one lady goes, how old's your baby? And Danielle says five weeks. And she goes, honey, you don't need any advice. You're at a restaurant with the five week old.  Like, God bless you.  And that was exactly, exactly what we needed to hear. And I think it's also like a great indication of, you know, your old life isn't over. You could still do stuff. You just have to plan it a little more carefully and be flexible. And  I was shocked like if you had told me a couple months ago that I'd be doing that at five weeks, I wouldn't have believed you. But it's been really cool to just have the summer to chill out and spend time with Riley, and it's so cool to be having like the same timing as you would kind of like  go through the milestones, so.  [00:38:18] Dan Runcie: Definitely. When do you think you'll bring Riley to a music festival or some type of event like that where she's wearing the headphones and you and Danielle enjoying yourselves? [00:38:29] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: We already got her headphones. [00:38:31] Dan Runcie: Ear muffs, I should say. I said headphones. [00:38:33] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, right, right. Ear muffs. Well, we put them on, we did a trial run on the 4th of July. And initially, she smiled a lot and I think she thought they were pretty cool. And then she was like, get this shit off of me. So I don't know. We actually were thinking of venturing into Central Park to SummerStage. A couple of weeks ago, I think Trombone Shorty was there. And then our plan just got blown up with like the various feeding schedules and things like that. So I don't know. I think we're ready to try. I think it just has to be a SummerStage thing, and it has to be like not too hot or too cold, and go for it. But I think the first time we're just not going to buy tickets. We're just going to stand outside, and see how it goes, you know, for like a half an hour. And then if that's okay, then maybe we'll work our way up. But yeah, I mean, so great to be in a, in a place where live music is just, you know, a short walk away. She hates being in the car, so it's a good thing we're in New York.  [00:39:29] Dan Runcie: Perfect. No, that's great.  [00:39:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: When's your first concert plan?  [00:39:34] Dan Runcie: It's funny because last year Outside Lands here in San Francisco was in October. So in my mind, I was like, oh yeah, we could do it in October. But then I forgot that it was a pandemic year and Outside Lands is in August. So that's like two weeks from now. It's, like, the first weekend in August that Outside Lands is, and a concert might be a little much in, you know, two weeks if you're listening to this one week from recording. But I'm hoping that, you know, some early fall, hopefully, we could do something.  [00:40:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Fingers crossed for both of us.  [00:40:03] Dan Runcie: Definitely, definitely. Well, Zack, this is a pleasure. Appreciate you coming on. We'll make sure that we link to Tiffany's post in the show notes and, yeah, so next time, we'll hit you up and then, you know, we can definitely save some stuff for our next Girl Dad Life quarter, and I'm sure there'll be plenty of stuff happening in the industry. Everyone's on vacation right now, relaxing, but soon enough things will be ramping back up.  [00:40:26] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Amen. Well, thanks for having me on Dan as always, and best of luck on fatherhood on your end, too.  [00:40:31] Dan Runcie: Likewise. Thanks, man.  [00:40:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: All right. [00:40:34] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 29 Jul 2022 08:00:00 -0000 How Does the Music Business Compare To Film And TV? full Dan Runcie Best-selling author Zack O’Malley Greenburg and I took a break for a new Dad-girl duties to talk about the latest headlines in the music industry — namely Irv Gotti selling a 50-percent ownership stake in Murder Inc.’s past music recordings. He got $100 million from Iconoclast for the deal, plus another $200-million credit line to fund future media endeavors Irv has planned.  After the sale, Irv did an interview with Billboard and quipped that monetary-wise, the music industry is the “lowest form” in entertainment compared to film and television. Zack and I debated that during our episode comparing top-line revenues for each entertainment vertical, plus how Irv’s deal compares to other splashy catalog sales in the past two years.  We also dived into a guest post on Zack’s Substack about how “moods” has become the new classification for music, not genres anymore. Discovery algorithms deployed by streaming services have pushed listeners toward moods — and away from regionalism (e.g. Houston-style “chopped and screwed”) and loyalty to particular record labels. It’s also another tell-tale sign that Gen Z is more fluid, less rigid than prior generations with their labels.  Below are all the music-industry topics Zack and I covered throughout the episode, plus a special segment on becoming Dad’s in the past two months: [0:55] Baby Duties For Zack & Dan [4:11] Irv Gotti Calls Music Industry “Lowest Form” In Entertainment  [6:09] Zack Still Gets Royalties for “Lorenzo’s Oil” [7:52] Top-Line Revenues: Music vs. Movie Industry [8:59] New Artist Perspective Skewing Perception Of Music Business [11:04] Did Irv Gotti’s Deal Get Made Before Market Correction?  [13:08] Irv’s Deal Was For Masters, Not Publishing [13:50] Crowning Jewel of Murder Inc’s Catalog [18:23] Why Mood Is The New Musical Genre [19:26] Gen Z Uses Labels Less Than Prior Generations [25:53] Post Malone The Genre-Agnostic Artist [27:10] Did Streaming End Regionalism In Music?  [29:53] Fan Attachment To Record Labels Has Disappeared [32:30] Stories From Two New Girl Dads [38:21] First Music Show For The New Babies? Tiffany Ng’s article on music being categorized by moods, not genre: https://zogblog.substack.com/p/why-mood-is-the-new-musical-genre Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog   Sponsors:   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Our generation, in general, is pretty hung up on labels. You know, everything from music to sexuality, to whatever, you know, it's like things have to be classified and, you know, there's kind of an obsession over putting things in buckets. Whereas I think Gen Z has a lot more about fluidity and sort of like, you know, questioning why we need these labels at all to begin with, or at least, like, maybe we should just loosen up a little bit about them, which I think makes a ton of sense, you know?  [00:00:34] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:55] Dan Runcie: This episode is the first one I'd done in a little bit, took a quick break from recording. My wife and I welcomed our first child into the world last month, so took some time, focused on family, and finally, ready to get back into the swing of things. And there's no better person to do it with than my friend, Zack O'Malley Greenburg, who recently is coming back from paternity to leave himself. Him and his wife just had a kid in May, and the past couple of months, Zack and I have been talking about our journeys, both leading up to this moment and after. So, and given what we cover in both music and entertainment, it was a good time to catch up on a few recent headlines. First, we talked about Irv Gotti and the $300 million deal he did for selling his Murder Inc. Catalog, doing a deal with Iconoclast for further stuff in media, TV, and film. And this statement that Irv Gotti made about music being the lowest-monetized form of entertainment. Zack and I had some thoughts, so we broke that down. We also talked about one of the articles that was a guest post in Zack's ZOGBLOG that he had published that was about moods in music and how moods and music are definitely taking over genres, especially in streaming, and how that may shape the future of how music's released and monetized. We're getting away from these genre legacy terms like country, rap, and pop and moving more so into chill vibes, or other things that are named by hyperspecific Spotify playlists. And Zack and I saves a little bit of time at the end for Girl Dad Life, where we chatted about some of our mutual experiences and some funny moments that we've experienced so far with having kids and what's that's been like with newborns specifically, so hope you enjoy this episode. Here's my chat with Zack.  [00:02:42] Dan Runcie: All right. We're back with another episode. And I'm joined by my guy who is also probably with limited sleep, fresh off of paternity leave himself, Zack, how are you holding up these days, man? [00:02:54] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Not too bad. I think we got eight hours last night out of Riley, little Riley. So life is definitely getting a little bit more normal but it's, it's all good. sleep or no sleep. It's just a blast.  [00:03:06] Dan Runcie: Ah, love to hear it. I'll hopefully be at that eight-hour stretch soon, a couple of weeks behind you with a newborn, but we'll save some time at the end to catch up on Girl Dad Life.  [00:03:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: All right. [00:03:17] Dan Runcie: Let's start things at the top though. We got some big topics we want to dive into, but this first one that caught my eye, and it sounds like it caught your eye, too. This quote is from Irv Gotti, who just did this huge deal. Of course, Irv Gotti, CEO, one of the founders of Murder Inc. He was able to do a $300 million deal recently with Iconoclast, where he was able to sell his share, his 50% share of Murder Inc.'s masters for $100 million. And plus he also got a $200 million line of credit. That's going to be specifically used for future TV and film projects that are likely going to be based off of some of the Murder Inc. IP or other things. But in an interview that he did talking about this deal with Billboard, he said this quote, and I've been thinking a lot about it. [00:04:11] Dan Runcie: He said, "Entertainment industry is music, TV, and film," right? "The music business is the lowest form, and I just bagged a hundred million dollars for some shit I did 20 years ago." And the interviewer then follows up and it's like, you know, can you say more? And he says, "It's just the facts. More money is made in TV and with movies than music. It’s a non-disputable fact. We love the music industry and I love the music industry. There’s money to be made. But [it’s dwarfed by] the money made from TV and film. If I have 100 episodes of television and I own it, they’ll probably put a worth on it at $300 or $400 million. With $300 or $400 million, I could sell it at a 10 to 20 multiple. That’s three to six billion. This is why Tyler Perry is a billionaire. That’s why I sold my masters and did this deal with Iconoclast." So I pause and, although I get what he's saying and I think there is some interesting discussion there, I think there's a lot of nuances there. And I'm not quite sure if I'm completely on board with him on this. That said, I think Irv Gotti is great. I always loved what Murder Inc. did, but I think that this particular statement is a bit more nuanced, especially with what we've seen happening in music the past few years.  [00:05:29] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. I mean, you know, and I think he got into some fuzzy math there at the end. I mean, I don't know, you know, to multiply what by 10? And we're talking how many billion dollars? Like, when Disney pay a billion for the entire Star Wars library, so, I know that was a great deal for them and it's worth a lot more now. I think the math might be a little bit off, but I would kind of flip it and say, you know, sure. You know, there are movies that gross billions of dollars or, you know, hundreds of millions or into the billions, low billions. But like, there aren't albums that do that. Okay, but, you know, in terms of libraries, I mean, we just saw Bruce Springsteen get half a billion dollars for his. [00:06:09] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I mean, we're seeing, you know, masters in publishing go for hundreds of millions of dollars. The fact that Irv Gotti got a hundred million dollars for half of the Murder Inc. catalog. I mean, that's a wild number. No, not to sort of sleep on the Murder Inc. catalog, but, you know, it's not Bruce Springsteen. So, you know, I think that actually, the fact that he was able to get a hundred million dollars shows that the music industry is actually alive and well, right, in terms of the valuations. So yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure how much I, I, I agree with that, especially when you look at, you know, like for example, I was in a movie when I was a kid. The movie's called Lorenzo's Oil and I played Lorenzo. It's a, a big role, and I still get checks for 60 bucks, you know, every few months. And that's nice. And I'm sure that Nick Nolte and Susan Sarandon who were in it get much bigger checks, but, you know, they can't really go and, like, sell that catalog. You know, you don't have masters as an actor. I suppose you could go and sell the royalty streams or companies let you do that now, but it's not the same in terms of intellectual property. There's not like an equivalent to, you know, songwriting you know, like the sort of, the same kind of IP that, you know, at least, if you are an actor or an artist, or, you know, you would have access into your, to your masters in a way that you wouldn't as an actor unless maybe you're Tom Cruise and you negotiate some crazy backend deal. So, I think the grass is a little bit greener on the music side than Irv is, is giving credit for.  [00:07:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think the difference that you're highlighting is that it's not so much the top-line number. It's more so just how the business model under that number is distributed between who owns the underlying content and who doesn't. And I think if you're Irv and you're trying to compare this from this perspective of, if you're in music and you're trying to do a deal with Universal, whether you're an artist or you were an indie label at the time, trying to do a distribution deal or some type of joint venture. I forget exactly what Murder Inc. had at the time. But comparing that isn't the same to comparing what Tyler Perry is doing because even what Tyler Perry's doing, he is very much a unicorn in that right. There's not that many actors that are owning the underlying IP of the work that they're doing. Tyler Perry is the writer, the director, the producer for all of these things. That's why he is getting those things. And that is a very unique use case because in most cases, those are all different people in television. And I think, to be honest, TV is likely getting even murkier now because so much of the money that was going into these projects was based on this concept that these video streaming services could just have infinite growth and just keep growing and growing. [00:08:59] Dan Runcie: And now we're kind of reaching this point where people are like, okay, Netflix had 220 billion people paying $10, $15, almost $20 a month. Maybe that was as high as it could potentially go. I mean, I think there's plenties to break down there, but if those dollars aren't going to be as high as they may have been in that perspective, then we're going to see the shift. I did look at some top-line numbers, which are, I think, a good way to kind of balance things out. The music industry almost made $30 billion last year. I think it was around $28 billion last year for recorded music overall. So that does not include concerts or any of those things. I know that Irv isn't referring to that, but then if you look at the box office, I mean, that's more money than the global box office made, granted last year was a pandemic year so I know it's a bit tough to compare these things. And there's a lot more other things there, but it's not so much that this industry itself doesn't make as much money 'cause, yeah, you mentioned Bruce just got half a billion for all of his stuff. He owns this stuff and you know, that, you know, Born in the U.S.A. is going to be playing for decades, at least with, you know, as long as your Baby Boomers, and Gen X, and I guess even Millennials that are big Springsteen fans continue to listen. But I think that's different than how Irv might be looking at it. The thing is though it's not just Irv. I think that has its perspective. I think a lot of other folks have that perspective too, but I think it stems from when you are at the lowest rung of being the talent in the particular industry, I think music at that stage is likely a bit less advantageous than it may be for, you know, an actor per se. And maybe that's a bit of the difference where if you're a musician that's just signing on for a deal, it's going to take a lot longer for you to maybe recoup that money than an actor would, you know, signing on for an equivalent level size of something. But that's definitely very different than putting that as a global claim about the broader industry.  [00:11:04] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: That's true, but I, I would still argue that if you are an artist getting into the game as a, as a musician, the default would be that you would probably have shared ownership of your masters. If you were an actor getting into the acting game, the default is like you get an okay chunk of money for one movie, you know. It doesn't come with IP in the way that it would. And so it's not until later in your career that you can start to say, Hey, I want to be a director. I want to be a producer. Until you start to get, or, you know, or maybe you're kind of DIY from the beginning and, and you're doing it, all of it yourself, but that's, that's so unusual. You know, I don't know. I mean, I, I think the other thing too, is that like, and maybe this is part of what Irv was alluding to, I mean, that a hundred million dollars that he got, that to me seemed like a number that was more along the lines of the stuff we were seeing, you know, six months to a year ago before interest rates doubled. And we kind of stopped hearing about these big deals. So I wonder if that deal, and I kind of asked around a little bit and I couldn't get a, a firm answer, but I would suspect that that deal, you know, was agreed upon you know, like last fall or something before the economic environment changed and, you know, and it just didn't close until now 'cause these, these deals can take six months to a year to close and, and that's why, you know, you've got such a good multiple. But like these days, you know, when the interest rate is, like, gone from 3% to 6% or whatever, I guess it depends on the kind of deals you're doing, but, you know, that's a huge difference. And it sort of like makes buying music assets a lot less interesting because you know, when just, like normal financial instruments, you know, and not to get, like, too nerdy about it, but, you know, in the bond market are generating something closer to what a music catalog would do. I think, like, these big financial institutions are going to be more inclined to kind of like lean on their expertise rather than trying to, to do these exotic things or, you know, get involved with, with music catalogs and intellectual property and that sort of thing.  [00:13:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I could see that. I think the other piece of this, too, that may get lost in some of the details, especially, is that this isn't a publishing catalog deal. This is masters, at least partial ownership there, or not partial ownership, but at least the revenue generating from at least half of what Irv had, and at least in streaming, your recorded revenue from the master side is at least three to four times higher than what the publishers are getting. Of course, there have been some, there's some recent changes where the publisher royalty has increased. I think increased from 10 and a half percent to 15.1% recently. So that'll help, but still, that piece of it does in many ways, so even, let's say you were to compare this number for the Murder Inc.'s masters to let's say what Justin Timberlake got for his catalog deal. You can't necessarily compare that because Timberlake's was for the piece of the music sound recordings that were less valuable, relatively speaking, at least currently than this. So I do think sometimes, like, those things do get lost in it, but it would be interesting to see, yeah, what would that be like now if those deals were starting to shine a closer look if those conversations were happening? I think it would be interesting and also a bit unique because this deal is with Iconoclast. This isn't one of the standard players that we've seen that are handing out, you know, the nine-figure checks to these companies. Who knows what the conversations could have been like with Hipgnosis or Round Hill or some of the others. I feel like he may have alluded to that to some extent in the interview, but it was hard to get a sense specifically. [00:14:52] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. And you also wonder, I mean, how much, if it was about, you know, being able to say, oh, now we have a catalog that, like, there is some Jay-Z in there. There's some DMX in there. I think there's some J.Lo in there. You know, in addition to like a lot of Ja Rule and Ashanti, and you know, but that's kind of like a trophy to have that. You know, I don't know that it's quite so often that you know, anything by Jay-Z comes up. I think it was, there's a piece of Can I Live on there, which, which is pretty cool, so, you know, that that might have added, you know, a certain premium to it.  [00:15:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I was going to ask you that. What do you think is the crowning jewel of this catalog? I mean, every one of these catalog sales, it has the typical 80- 20 or the power law thing, where there is a few big songs that are really generating everything. I mean, you mentioned J.Lo. I mean, I'm Real has to be one of the biggest Murder Inc. songs they had, or maybe Always On Time with, you know, Ja Rule and Ashanti. Are there any others that stick out? [00:15:48] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I mean, the Jay-Z one for sure. Which DMX song was it? It was a pretty big one. I think it's What's My Name?  [00:15:54] Dan Runcie: Oh, What's My Name. Oh, that, that was on X's catalog. That was Ruff Ryders and Def Jam.  [00:15:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh, that was. Okay.  [00:15:59] Dan Runcie: But Jay-Z, they, they were on It's Murda though, right? It's Murda from Ja Rule's Venni Vetti Vecci that had Jay and DMX.  [00:16:07] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: That's right. Okay. [00:16:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Is that right? [00:16:09] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: It was, it was some, it was like somewhere in the discography. I was looking at it though. Oh, well, I'll track it down someday. We'll have to talk about it the next time. But there was, there was a big DMX single that somehow ended up on there that caught my eye. But, you know, like a lot of the Ja Rule stuff, I think. I think maybe Livin' It Up was on there.  [00:16:26] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah, that was big. [00:16:27] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: That's a huge one. [00:16:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, like Down 4 U, like Down Ass Bitch, like, you had a few of those that were in it. I think Ashanti had some big ones, too, like Foolish. Foolish was huge.  [00:16:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Oh, yeah, here. Okay, it says What's My Name. It said that he produced What's My Name. So that's why, even though it wasn't... [00:16:45] Dan Runcie: Oh, interesting. [00:16:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. What's Luv? That's a huge one.  [00:16:50] Dan Runcie: Oh, that's a big one. Yep. With Fat Joe and Ashanti, yep.  [00:16:53] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Can I Live, Holla Holla, you know, so there's, there's some really good stuff on there. And I think you're right. It's probably, there's a couple, you know, without us having a, a look at the statements, it's hard to know, but it, it wouldn't surprise me if one of those songs is just like a sleeper hit that just continues to, I mean, we know it's a big hit, but it, it could be, like, way more lucrative than we ever imagined. Or one of those could have been in a movie, you know, more, more than the others or something like that. So, you know, I think a lot of these songs are going to be, actually, that's what one of the lawyers I reached out to about this said. He was like, you know, there's a lot of stuff in there that is very interesting from the sync perspective. You know, to the sort of like Millennial, Xennial crowd that grew up on that that would love to see it in movies, and TV, and video games, so yeah, that could be part of it, too. [00:17:38] Dan Runcie: Big on sync. Also, big on the likelihood of being turned into some viral TikTok trend. I don't know if that is a quantifiable metric they're using, but I would, I think it is. I just think of so many, the TikTok things that blow up and that era of early 2000s, late 90s hip-hop has done really well in a lot of ways. And sometimes it's so random, but I do think that that Murder Inc. sound captures so much of that. It's only before long that someone finds some, like, weird thing that happened in one of the music videos, and then that then becomes viral, and then it becomes like a whole TikTok viral campaign.  [00:18:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yep. Yep. Although don't know how, how much they'll be getting paid from TikTok, but that's a whole other, that's a whole other story. [00:18:23] Dan Runcie: We'll have to save that one for our next, for the next chat. We got to see how that whole situation firms up. But so the next topic that we want to talk about is a fascinating piece that was a guest post that was written by someone that you had worked with, Tiffany, and she wrote a really interesting essay on why mood is the new musical genre. And when you picked me on this, I read it, and it stuck out because I was like, you know what? It's a hundred percent right. If you look at Spotify and you look at how all these streaming services have shifted, how music is being consumed and listened to. Yeah, it isn't rock, pop country, hip-hop. It's a lo-fi chill vibes. It's, you know, backyard barbecue hang. It's all of these super niche things that reflect a lot more of where music listening is going. And I could only imagine there's so many broader implications that it can have, but I'd love to hear what you think about it.  [00:19:26] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. So I've been out on paternity leave and, you know, not really writing, but Tiffany who's a really great writer and, and was doing some research for me while she was a senior at, at my alma mater, at Yale. And, and she and I were actually, we worked on the same, basically, arts and culture desk on the school newspaper, you know, whatever it was, 15 years apart. So she, while I was out, she wrote this great long piece kind of talking about how, you know, from her generation's perspective, this idea that, yeah, that you would classify things by genre or really identify yourself as like a hip-hop fan or a rock fan or whatever, is all kind of moot. It's like an old people thing. And that her generation is more about moods and, and like you say, it's backyard barbecue or whatever it is. And people don't, you know, really care about genres so much anymore, you know, amongst the sort of Gen Z crowd, and she, you know, really kind of dug into some, I think, great examples of it and talked about Spotify classifications and how they put together, Audio Auras that give you your kind of, like, yearend picture of your listening tastes. And I think it's a really great point. And I think that, you know, our generation, in general, is pretty hung up on labels. You know, everything from music to sexuality, to whatever, you know, it's like things are, have to be classified and, you know, there's kind of an obsession over putting things in buckets. Whereas I think Gen Z is, is a lot more about fluidity and sort of like, you know, questioning why we need these labels at all to begin with, or at least like, maybe we should just loosen up a little bit about them, which I think makes a ton of sense, you know? I mean, I remember when Halsey put out that song, New Americana, and she talked about being raised on Biggie and Nirvana. And I was like, yeah, that's me. Like, I get that. But that always felt weird when people were like, well, what kind of music are you into? And I was like hip-hop, and grunge rock, and like some other stuff. That was always sort of weird, but I think it's good to see the next generation kind of embrace that more and that's what the article kind of dug into. [00:21:22] Dan Runcie: The label and generation identification is a huge thing. Do you remember growing up when the labels of how we were and folks were in middle school and high school was such a thing that people went down the road, it was like, oh, you're a skater? Oh, then you listen to Linkin Park. Then you listen to this and you dress, and you wear like JNCO jeans, like with the chain hanging from the back of your pocket to the front or whatever. You're a prep? Okay, you shop at Abercrombie & Fitch. You're probably wearing Adidas Superstars and you probably, I don't know, clothes from, like Structure or like Express, and stuff like that. Like, there were all these buckets, too, and then it extended as well. If you listen to hip. You probably wore Timberlands. You probably had Nike Air Force 1s, Ecko, or whatever the popular clothes were at times. Like, all of these things and this generation and timeframe is just like, no, that's not the case. And I think this mood thing factors in a lot of that. I think we're almost seeing this to some extent with things we've kind of just seen, like regionality as well.  [00:22:29] Dan Runcie: Like, I've heard a lot of people talk about how from, you know, certain generations it's like, oh, like, well, people in Seattle, they dress like this. Like, you could go to Seattle, walk or like, you know, the Pacific Northwest and everyone's wearing flannel like it's a Nirvana music video or whatever. Or if you go down south, like I would visit my cousins in Florida growing up and they would be listening to Ying Yang Twins and all these other songs that were popular at the time. And we just weren't listening to that stuff nearly as much growing up in the Northeast. And it hit that vibe. And I think now, too, because of the internet, so much of that generationality piece just, or not the generationality, the geographical identity is also dissipated, too, where people in Seattle can, you know, feel no different, especially from a youth perspective, could feel no different than someone growing up in Miami or Fort Lauderdale or whatever it is. So I'm curious to see how is that going to shape? Even the legacy labels that we do have on things. I think that the Grammys is, you know, clearly an institution that has prided itself on the number of options that it's given particular artists to have and celebrate their particular genre of music based on these legacy labels. I think it takes a lot of time for those things to change, but will we see that? Could you eventually see things where I think pop radio in a lot of ways? And radio, in general, is still one of the things that's still holding onto this generational, you know, label divides much to a fault because I think there's still certain types of artists that are precluded from being heard on Z100 or being heard on your mainstream stations, so, I think that it may still take time to get there, but I'm curious to see what did that look like 20 years, 20 years from now? Will we still see the same restrictions on radio and in award ceremonies? 'Cause I think those are the two areas that feel harder to disrupt than the broader culture that already has been disrupted by it. [00:24:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. And one of the other things that Tiffany wrote about in this article which you, oh, you can read it, just it's zogblog.com, and you can go through the newsletter. It's the latest post. I'll be back writing in a week or two, I think. But anyway, it's up there on zogblog.com and she said, she pointed out the IGOR one for best rap album, even though it's not really a rap album. Like, it's already happening, right, like, in categories at the Grammy's. So, right, like how, how soon until we start to change that or, or even have sort of like, broader, you know, kinds of labels. Like, what if it's like, you know, best chill album, you know? Best barbecue album? I don't know. So I'd love to see how that, how that kind of turns out. But, man, I remember, you know, in the nineties, when you would sort of put on your AOL profile what kind of music you listen to. A lot of people sort of also define themselves in opposition to certain genres. They're like, I listen to anything but country and rap, you know? That, I remember a lot of people that, anything but rap, anything but country. That was sort of their battle cry. And you know, I just don't see too much of that anymore. And I think that's a great thing, you know, like, why should you have to limit your taste? It's like, you know, you don't want to be a traitor to, to your emo, whatever, by, by listening to hip-hop. But now we have like emo hip-hop. It's great. I think it's cool that we have, you know, all these kinds of like mixings and subgenres. [00:25:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah, if anything, I think I'll see the angst more for particular artists themselves and not necessarily the broader genre, right? Like, I know there's people that, you know, they just don't like Post Malone for a number of reasons. And it's like, I get it, but you can't put Post Malone in a musical category to be like, oh, I don't like this type of music 'cause I guarantee you, whatever, you know, genre of music, you want to put him in, there's going to be an artist that sounds like him, may not look like him, may not have a fan base that, you know, vibes the way that his does, but you're probably going to like something of that, you know, type of thing, right? [00:26:30] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've gotten into so many arguments about how to classify Post Malone. Some people say he is hip-hop, which I don't really, I wouldn't classify him as hip-hop. Is he pop? I guess. I guess that's what you'd call it, but, you know, I wouldn't really say that he's rock. [00:26:45] Dan Runcie: I would call him pop, yeah. [00:26:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Pop yeah. Pop or sad frat party or something, you know? I mean, mood. I think mood is a great way with him, too.  [00:26:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I mean, is there any other broader implication that you can think of with how moods will just continue to shift over time and how moods may play a bigger role in music, either how it's consumed or how it's monetized?  [00:27:10] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I mean, I think really what's on my mind about that right now is I go back to what you were saying about regionalism. And, you know, I wonder if sort of this movement away from labels of genre, more toward labels of mood has to do with the fact that you know, there's sort of like, you know, national moods almost that you can attach to music in a way that you couldn't when things were sort of regional. And, you know, there was that whole moment where radio, sort of like the consolidation of radio, that kind of switch over to like the clear channel model. And you, you had sort of like the same, you know, whatever it was, KISS-FM or something like that, and you had these big playlists that were just kind of on rotation, the same playlists like all over the country, and you kind of lost a little bit of that local flavor. But actually, you know, as people were lamenting that the whole thing shifted over to streaming. And there's no regional streaming, right? And so I think it sort of follows that mood would sort of like become a new means of classification because once you eliminate the regional aspect to it you know, I don't know, it's, it's sort of like it maybe unnecessary movement to happen over time. And I think, you know, There's some cons to losing the regionalism and, you know, you get some unique sounds and certainly within hip-hop, it was really cool to see like Houston versus Bay Area, you know, like very specific microclimate-type sounds that you could get that, that, you know, within kind of bubble up and percolate into different like more mainstream hip-hop sounds. But you know, then again, I think it's cool to just other genres meld into other genres and have that be kind of the mixing that happens too. So, you know, pros and cons, but I think, I think there are a lot of pros to the mood thing over the genre label thing. [00:29:00] Dan Runcie: So before long, we're going to have to pour some out for the dirty south hip-hop playlist. Got so much play over time.  And maybe this regionalism trend or trend away from regionalism is just the way things are going. This is a sports analogy, more so, and there's other reasons behind it. But I look at what's happening in college sports right now with these major teams joining the Big Ten, joining the you know, or the Big East no longer really being a thing, and how so much of that is just a sign of where things are right now. And so much of what people really appreciated about what these conferences could tell you about a particular place in the country, that's not necessarily going to be the case if, you know, Texas and its whole culture is coming and joining, you know, joining the ECC, right? It's just very different.  [00:29:53] Dan Runcie: And I think to bring this conversation full circle, too, it's like, I've heard through the grapevines about record labels that had wanted to start their own metaverse experiences and being like, okay, this is the record label's metaverse experience. And then someone wisely told them, Hey, no one cares about your record label. Like, that's not the draw here. Like, I mean, in the folks that are inside the industry, of course, you can share the accolades and stuff like that. But the fans care about the artists. They're not going to be drawn. Like, the days are done of people being like, oh yeah, no Def Jam, like, in the heyday, I'm there. Like, that's just not how it works anymore.  [00:30:29] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. You know, I mean, if you're really in the business, you know, which labels have which ethos. But, you know, it, it really has blurred together more and more. And yeah, I think in the old days, you know, people would be like, oh, I'm an Atlantic records fan. You know, because when they pulled out that vinyl, you know, they saw that logo, and they knew that there was a certain type of artist and that Atlantic Records were a curator of the type of music that they liked. And maybe it wasn't the same genre always, but there was, you know, they knew that it would be good. But if you're a casual listener, there's not really even an opportunity to easily know what label anybody is on. So why would you care? And I think, especially since you know, I mean, I think there was a heyday in the nineties of hip-hop artists shouting out the record labels that they were on or that they owned and that was sort of, you know, important. Definitely, like Ruff Ryders had a very different ethos from Bad Boy. And, you know, you might classify yourself, you know, more in one bucket or another and identify with that. But I think so much of that has just dissipated in the streaming era, 'cause yeah, you're not looking at a physical thing. So you know, who knows, who cares what labels anybody on, and why the hell would you really want to go to an individual label metaverse thing? I'm glad somebody told them that they shouldn't be doing that anymore.  [00:31:43] Dan Runcie: Definitely. No, definitely. All right. Well, we saved some time at the end for the section that's near and dear to both of us, as, you know, if you followed either my writing or Zack's writing recently, you know, that we both had kids very recently. So Zack had his daughter in May. I had mine in June, and it's been great to just, you know, connect and bond and hear more about how things were for both of us leading up to this point and now after. So I figured now that we're on the other side of it with relatively newborn and young children, we could have a little section here called Girl Dad Life, where we each share one interesting or funny experience that's happened for both of us trying to navigate fatherhood here. So Zack, I'll let you start. What's your experience been like? And what's yours? [00:32:30] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. You know, less than a, like a specific story, it's really more about an overall vibe mood, if you will. Man, I know it sounds corny, but the moment you become a parent, this compartment opens up inside of you and it's just filled with a new capacity to love that you didn't know was in there. And it just is like overwhelming and beautiful and is, is the best thing that's ever happened to me. And I think that one of the things, you know, like I think the best advice I would give is, is that there's no, like, right way to do it. And people have been having babies for a very long time without all the gear and whatever, and we've survived, as the human race. But I think the thing that, that always surprises and delights me is that you know, Riley, despite being eight weeks old, I mean, from the very beginning, has been a little human who, who knows what she wants. And it's like pretty straightforward. If she's crying, you know, she needs to go to sleep. She needs food or she needs a diaper change. And if she doesn't like that, it's time to put on, like, any number of different songs or albums that she likes. And she's, talk about a musical omnivore. Oh, my God. She loves, like, Shirley Bassey, Big Spender. She loves Biggie, Mo Money Mo Problems. You know, she's really like, no genre constraints when you're an infant. And I think it's just really cool to see that, you know, she could be crying and then that beat comes on and she starts smiling, you know? [00:34:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I would also say like, I, I read this book called Bringing Up Bébé, and it's all about the French method of child-rearing. And they're really big into this idea of, like, the baby is a human with thoughts and preferences the minute they come out of the womb and sort of just like paying attention, you know, and, and also giving them a second to try to figure whatever it is out. Like, if your baby starts to cry, you know, don't necessarily just, like, drop everything, rush in and, you know, give your baby a second to try to figure it out. And sometimes they won't. And then you go and tend to them, but, like, if you don't give them a chance to figure it out as babies, then they'll never be able to sort of figure it out on their own as adults. So I thought that was a really cool insight. How about you?  [00:34:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's funny. You recommended that book to me, a couple of other friends did too. And I read it and yeah, it was a really an interesting read and it was a good reminder of, like, yeah, people have been doing this for plenty of years, and just because your baby doesn't have the newest, fanciest insert whatever, stroller, bassinet this and that, like, the fact that you're thinking about this to this extent means that you'll probably be fine and the baby will be fine. But a few funny stories that we have that I could share, so one of them when we were in the labor delivery phase, one of the folks that was in the room with us, she was a volunteer doula that was helping with a few things. She had asked me, she was like, oh, did you want me to take pictures? Because she could see I was trying to, like, multitask. My wife had wanted me to take some pictures and I was like, yeah, sure. So then not only did she take pictures, she took a video of everything, from like the moment of, you know, when my wife started pushing to everything after. And then I remember like when, you know, my wife was still recovering, I watched it, and I was like, oh wow, I did not realize she captured everything. And then my wife was just like, I do not want to see that. And then I think she heard me watch it. And then she was like, okay, I have to see that. She was like, was that me? Like? I was like, yes, yes, that was you. But it's okay. You know, completely normal, unexpected. So that's, what's there. But, yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree with you more on, you know, everything from the love, life-changing perspective, you know, something we had wanted, and, you know, it's been so good from that perspective and just pick it up on cues and stuff. There are definitely a few funny moments that we'll always crack ourselves up as 'cause you have to, right? It's like, I mean, you know, we both know what it's like with the whole sleep deprived, everything and, and all that. But you do start to notice the baby's patterns and stuff. And like how they'll react to, you know, when you're either about to feed or when you're about to give a bottle or any of those things and just the instant reaction, so. It's something else. But, you know, it's been good. I mean, we're recording today. Today's actually one month since she was born.  [00:36:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh, my gosh.  [00:36:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Time has is flown by, time has flown by. And this is, like, the first podcast I had done since then. Everything else up to this point had been pre-recorded stuff we planned, so slowly getting back into the swing of things. I think I'll most likely be back in like a full-time perspective, maybe sometime later this month, but I think, you know, just going slowly week by week there. It feels good to have the work stuff to mix in with everything, but like, life-changing in the best way. [00:37:03] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, well so you're coming up on five weeks and actually one of my favorite moments so far happened at five weeks. My wife and I went out with Riley  and we went out for dinner at a sidewalk cafe in New York. And, you know, Riley's, like, sleeping, we're having a great time and chatting and eating. And you know, after maybe like an hour, she starts crying, and so I take her out and I'm kind of rocking her, and she's crying. And there are these ladies sitting next to us  and I was like, oh, I'm so sorry.  And they're both like, no, really don't worry, we have babies at home. And my wife goes, do you have any advice for us? And the one lady goes, how old's your baby? And Danielle says five weeks. And she goes, honey, you don't need any advice. You're at a restaurant with the five week old.  Like, God bless you.  And that was exactly, exactly what we needed to hear. And I think it's also like a great indication of, you know, your old life isn't over. You could still do stuff. You just have to plan it a little more carefully and be flexible. And  I was shocked like if you had told me a couple months ago that I'd be doing that at five weeks, I wouldn't have believed you. But it's been really cool to just have the summer to chill out and spend time with Riley, and it's so cool to be having like the same timing as you would kind of like  go through the milestones, so.  [00:38:18] Dan Runcie: Definitely. When do you think you'll bring Riley to a music festival or some type of event like that where she's wearing the headphones and you and Danielle enjoying yourselves? [00:38:29] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: We already got her headphones. [00:38:31] Dan Runcie: Ear muffs, I should say. I said headphones. [00:38:33] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, right, right. Ear muffs. Well, we put them on, we did a trial run on the 4th of July. And initially, she smiled a lot and I think she thought they were pretty cool. And then she was like, get this shit off of me. So I don't know. We actually were thinking of venturing into Central Park to SummerStage. A couple of weeks ago, I think Trombone Shorty was there. And then our plan just got blown up with like the various feeding schedules and things like that. So I don't know. I think we're ready to try. I think it just has to be a SummerStage thing, and it has to be like not too hot or too cold, and go for it. But I think the first time we're just not going to buy tickets. We're just going to stand outside, and see how it goes, you know, for like a half an hour. And then if that's okay, then maybe we'll work our way up. But yeah, I mean, so great to be in a, in a place where live music is just, you know, a short walk away. She hates being in the car, so it's a good thing we're in New York.  [00:39:29] Dan Runcie: Perfect. No, that's great.  [00:39:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: When's your first concert plan?  [00:39:34] Dan Runcie: It's funny because last year Outside Lands here in San Francisco was in October. So in my mind, I was like, oh yeah, we could do it in October. But then I forgot that it was a pandemic year and Outside Lands is in August. So that's like two weeks from now. It's, like, the first weekend in August that Outside Lands is, and a concert might be a little much in, you know, two weeks if you're listening to this one week from recording. But I'm hoping that, you know, some early fall, hopefully, we could do something.  [00:40:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Fingers crossed for both of us.  [00:40:03] Dan Runcie: Definitely, definitely. Well, Zack, this is a pleasure. Appreciate you coming on. We'll make sure that we link to Tiffany's post in the show notes and, yeah, so next time, we'll hit you up and then, you know, we can definitely save some stuff for our next Girl Dad Life quarter, and I'm sure there'll be plenty of stuff happening in the industry. Everyone's on vacation right now, relaxing, but soon enough things will be ramping back up.  [00:40:26] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Amen. Well, thanks for having me on Dan as always, and best of luck on fatherhood on your end, too.  [00:40:31] Dan Runcie: Likewise. Thanks, man.  [00:40:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: All right. [00:40:34] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Best-selling author Zack O’Malley Greenburg and I took a break for a new Dad-girl duties to talk about the latest headlines in the music industry — namely Irv Gotti selling a 50-percent ownership stake in Murder Inc.’s past music recordings. He got $100 million from Iconoclast for the deal, plus another $200-million credit line to fund future media endeavors Irv has planned. 


After the sale, Irv did an interview with Billboard and quipped that monetary-wise, the music industry is the “lowest form” in entertainment compared to film and television. Zack and I debated that during our episode comparing top-line revenues for each entertainment vertical, plus how Irv’s deal compares to other splashy catalog sales in the past two years. 


We also dived into a guest post on Zack’s Substack about how “moods” has become the new classification for music, not genres anymore. Discovery algorithms deployed by streaming services have pushed listeners toward moods — and away from regionalism (e.g. Houston-style “chopped and screwed”) and loyalty to particular record labels. It’s also another tell-tale sign that Gen Z is more fluid, less rigid than prior generations with their labels. 


Below are all the music-industry topics Zack and I covered throughout the episode, plus a special segment on becoming Dad’s in the past two months:


[0:55] Baby Duties For Zack & Dan

[4:11] Irv Gotti Calls Music Industry “Lowest Form” In Entertainment 

[6:09] Zack Still Gets Royalties for “Lorenzo’s Oil”

[7:52] Top-Line Revenues: Music vs. Movie Industry

[8:59] New Artist Perspective Skewing Perception Of Music Business

[11:04] Did Irv Gotti’s Deal Get Made Before Market Correction? 

[13:08] Irv’s Deal Was For Masters, Not Publishing

[13:50] Crowning Jewel of Murder Inc’s Catalog

[18:23] Why Mood Is The New Musical Genre

[19:26] Gen Z Uses Labels Less Than Prior Generations

[25:53] Post Malone The Genre-Agnostic Artist

[27:10] Did Streaming End Regionalism In Music? 

[29:53] Fan Attachment To Record Labels Has Disappeared

[32:30] Stories From Two New Girl Dads

[38:21] First Music Show For The New Babies?


Tiffany Ng’s article on music being categorized by moods, not genre: https://zogblog.substack.com/p/why-mood-is-the-new-musical-genre




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Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog

 

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TRANSCRIPTION


[00:00:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Our generation, in general, is pretty hung up on labels. You know, everything from music to sexuality, to whatever, you know, it's like things have to be classified and, you know, there's kind of an obsession over putting things in buckets. Whereas I think Gen Z has a lot more about fluidity and sort of like, you know, questioning why we need these labels at all to begin with, or at least, like, maybe we should just loosen up a little bit about them, which I think makes a ton of sense, you know? 

[00:00:34] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.


[00:00:55] Dan Runcie: This episode is the first one I'd done in a little bit, took a quick break from recording. My wife and I welcomed our first child into the world last month, so took some time, focused on family, and finally, ready to get back into the swing of things. And there's no better person to do it with than my friend, Zack O'Malley Greenburg, who recently is coming back from paternity to leave himself. Him and his wife just had a kid in May, and the past couple of months, Zack and I have been talking about our journeys, both leading up to this moment and after. So, and given what we cover in both music and entertainment, it was a good time to catch up on a few recent headlines. First, we talked about Irv Gotti and the $300 million deal he did for selling his Murder Inc. Catalog, doing a deal with Iconoclast for further stuff in media, TV, and film. And this statement that Irv Gotti made about music being the lowest-monetized form of entertainment. Zack and I had some thoughts, so we broke that down. We also talked about one of the articles that was a guest post in Zack's ZOGBLOG that he had published that was about moods in music and how moods and music are definitely taking over genres, especially in streaming, and how that may shape the future of how music's released and monetized. We're getting away from these genre legacy terms like country, rap, and pop and moving more so into chill vibes, or other things that are named by hyperspecific Spotify playlists. And Zack and I saves a little bit of time at the end for Girl Dad Life, where we chatted about some of our mutual experiences and some funny moments that we've experienced so far with having kids and what's that's been like with newborns specifically, so hope you enjoy this episode. Here's my chat with Zack. 

[00:02:42] Dan Runcie: All right. We're back with another episode. And I'm joined by my guy who is also probably with limited sleep, fresh off of paternity leave himself, Zack, how are you holding up these days, man?

[00:02:54] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Not too bad. I think we got eight hours last night out of Riley, little Riley. So life is definitely getting a little bit more normal but it's, it's all good. sleep or no sleep. It's just a blast. 

[00:03:06] Dan Runcie: Ah, love to hear it. I'll hopefully be at that eight-hour stretch soon, a couple of weeks behind you with a newborn, but we'll save some time at the end to catch up on Girl Dad Life. 

[00:03:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: All right.

[00:03:17] Dan Runcie: Let's start things at the top though. We got some big topics we want to dive into, but this first one that caught my eye, and it sounds like it caught your eye, too. This quote is from Irv Gotti, who just did this huge deal. Of course, Irv Gotti, CEO, one of the founders of Murder Inc. He was able to do a $300 million deal recently with Iconoclast, where he was able to sell his share, his 50% share of Murder Inc.'s masters for $100 million. And plus he also got a $200 million line of credit. That's going to be specifically used for future TV and film projects that are likely going to be based off of some of the Murder Inc. IP or other things. But in an interview that he did talking about this deal with Billboard, he said this quote, and I've been thinking a lot about it.

[00:04:11] Dan Runcie: He said, "Entertainment industry is music, TV, and film," right? "The music business is the lowest form, and I just bagged a hundred million dollars for some shit I did 20 years ago." And the interviewer then follows up and it's like, you know, can you say more? And he says, "It's just the facts. More money is made in TV and with movies than music. It’s a non-disputable fact. We love the music industry and I love the music industry. There’s money to be made. But [it’s dwarfed by] the money made from TV and film. If I have 100 episodes of television and I own it, they’ll probably put a worth on it at $300 or $400 million. With $300 or $400 million, I could sell it at a 10 to 20 multiple. That’s three to six billion. This is why Tyler Perry is a billionaire. That’s why I sold my masters and did this deal with Iconoclast." So I pause and, although I get what he's saying and I think there is some interesting discussion there, I think there's a lot of nuances there. And I'm not quite sure if I'm completely on board with him on this. That said, I think Irv Gotti is great. I always loved what Murder Inc. did, but I think that this particular statement is a bit more nuanced, especially with what we've seen happening in music the past few years. 

[00:05:29] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. I mean, you know, and I think he got into some fuzzy math there at the end. I mean, I don't know, you know, to multiply what by 10? And we're talking how many billion dollars? Like, when Disney pay a billion for the entire Star Wars library, so, I know that was a great deal for them and it's worth a lot more now. I think the math might be a little bit off, but I would kind of flip it and say, you know, sure. You know, there are movies that gross billions of dollars or, you know, hundreds of millions or into the billions, low billions. But like, there aren't albums that do that. Okay, but, you know, in terms of libraries, I mean, we just saw Bruce Springsteen get half a billion dollars for his.

[00:06:09] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I mean, we're seeing, you know, masters in publishing go for hundreds of millions of dollars. The fact that Irv Gotti got a hundred million dollars for half of the Murder Inc. catalog. I mean, that's a wild number. No, not to sort of sleep on the Murder Inc. catalog, but, you know, it's not Bruce Springsteen. So, you know, I think that actually, the fact that he was able to get a hundred million dollars shows that the music industry is actually alive and well, right, in terms of the valuations. So yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure how much I, I, I agree with that, especially when you look at, you know, like for example, I was in a movie when I was a kid. The movie's called Lorenzo's Oil and I played Lorenzo. It's a, a big role, and I still get checks for 60 bucks, you know, every few months. And that's nice. And I'm sure that Nick Nolte and Susan Sarandon who were in it get much bigger checks, but, you know, they can't really go and, like, sell that catalog. You know, you don't have masters as an actor. I suppose you could go and sell the royalty streams or companies let you do that now, but it's not the same in terms of intellectual property. There's not like an equivalent to, you know, songwriting you know, like the sort of, the same kind of IP that, you know, at least, if you are an actor or an artist, or, you know, you would have access into your, to your masters in a way that you wouldn't as an actor unless maybe you're Tom Cruise and you negotiate some crazy backend deal. So, I think the grass is a little bit greener on the music side than Irv is, is giving credit for. 

[00:07:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think the difference that you're highlighting is that it's not so much the top-line number. It's more so just how the business model under that number is distributed between who owns the underlying content and who doesn't. And I think if you're Irv and you're trying to compare this from this perspective of, if you're in music and you're trying to do a deal with Universal, whether you're an artist or you were an indie label at the time, trying to do a distribution deal or some type of joint venture. I forget exactly what Murder Inc. had at the time. But comparing that isn't the same to comparing what Tyler Perry is doing because even what Tyler Perry's doing, he is very much a unicorn in that right. There's not that many actors that are owning the underlying IP of the work that they're doing. Tyler Perry is the writer, the director, the producer for all of these things. That's why he is getting those things. And that is a very unique use case because in most cases, those are all different people in television. And I think, to be honest, TV is likely getting even murkier now because so much of the money that was going into these projects was based on this concept that these video streaming services could just have infinite growth and just keep growing and growing.

[00:08:59] Dan Runcie: And now we're kind of reaching this point where people are like, okay, Netflix had 220 billion people paying $10, $15, almost $20 a month. Maybe that was as high as it could potentially go. I mean, I think there's plenties to break down there, but if those dollars aren't going to be as high as they may have been in that perspective, then we're going to see the shift. I did look at some top-line numbers, which are, I think, a good way to kind of balance things out. The music industry almost made $30 billion last year. I think it was around $28 billion last year for recorded music overall. So that does not include concerts or any of those things. I know that Irv isn't referring to that, but then if you look at the box office, I mean, that's more money than the global box office made, granted last year was a pandemic year so I know it's a bit tough to compare these things. And there's a lot more other things there, but it's not so much that this industry itself doesn't make as much money 'cause, yeah, you mentioned Bruce just got half a billion for all of his stuff. He owns this stuff and you know, that, you know, Born in the U.S.A. is going to be playing for decades, at least with, you know, as long as your Baby Boomers, and Gen X, and I guess even Millennials that are big Springsteen fans continue to listen. But I think that's different than how Irv might be looking at it. The thing is though it's not just Irv. I think that has its perspective. I think a lot of other folks have that perspective too, but I think it stems from when you are at the lowest rung of being the talent in the particular industry, I think music at that stage is likely a bit less advantageous than it may be for, you know, an actor per se. And maybe that's a bit of the difference where if you're a musician that's just signing on for a deal, it's going to take a lot longer for you to maybe recoup that money than an actor would, you know, signing on for an equivalent level size of something. But that's definitely very different than putting that as a global claim about the broader industry. 

[00:11:04] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: That's true, but I, I would still argue that if you are an artist getting into the game as a, as a musician, the default would be that you would probably have shared ownership of your masters. If you were an actor getting into the acting game, the default is like you get an okay chunk of money for one movie, you know. It doesn't come with IP in the way that it would. And so it's not until later in your career that you can start to say, Hey, I want to be a director. I want to be a producer. Until you start to get, or, you know, or maybe you're kind of DIY from the beginning and, and you're doing it, all of it yourself, but that's, that's so unusual. You know, I don't know. I mean, I, I think the other thing too, is that like, and maybe this is part of what Irv was alluding to, I mean, that a hundred million dollars that he got, that to me seemed like a number that was more along the lines of the stuff we were seeing, you know, six months to a year ago before interest rates doubled. And we kind of stopped hearing about these big deals. So I wonder if that deal, and I kind of asked around a little bit and I couldn't get a, a firm answer, but I would suspect that that deal, you know, was agreed upon you know, like last fall or something before the economic environment changed and, you know, and it just didn't close until now 'cause these, these deals can take six months to a year to close and, and that's why, you know, you've got such a good multiple. But like these days, you know, when the interest rate is, like, gone from 3% to 6% or whatever, I guess it depends on the kind of deals you're doing, but, you know, that's a huge difference. And it sort of like makes buying music assets a lot less interesting because you know, when just, like normal financial instruments, you know, and not to get, like, too nerdy about it, but, you know, in the bond market are generating something closer to what a music catalog would do. I think, like, these big financial institutions are going to be more inclined to kind of like lean on their expertise rather than trying to, to do these exotic things or, you know, get involved with, with music catalogs and intellectual property and that sort of thing. 

[00:13:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I could see that. I think the other piece of this, too, that may get lost in some of the details, especially, is that this isn't a publishing catalog deal. This is masters, at least partial ownership there, or not partial ownership, but at least the revenue generating from at least half of what Irv had, and at least in streaming, your recorded revenue from the master side is at least three to four times higher than what the publishers are getting. Of course, there have been some, there's some recent changes where the publisher royalty has increased. I think increased from 10 and a half percent to 15.1% recently. So that'll help, but still, that piece of it does in many ways, so even, let's say you were to compare this number for the Murder Inc.'s masters to let's say what Justin Timberlake got for his catalog deal. You can't necessarily compare that because Timberlake's was for the piece of the music sound recordings that were less valuable, relatively speaking, at least currently than this. So I do think sometimes, like, those things do get lost in it, but it would be interesting to see, yeah, what would that be like now if those deals were starting to shine a closer look if those conversations were happening? I think it would be interesting and also a bit unique because this deal is with Iconoclast. This isn't one of the standard players that we've seen that are handing out, you know, the nine-figure checks to these companies. Who knows what the conversations could have been like with Hipgnosis or Round Hill or some of the others. I feel like he may have alluded to that to some extent in the interview, but it was hard to get a sense specifically.

[00:14:52] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. And you also wonder, I mean, how much, if it was about, you know, being able to say, oh, now we have a catalog that, like, there is some Jay-Z in there. There's some DMX in there. I think there's some J.Lo in there. You know, in addition to like a lot of Ja Rule and Ashanti, and you know, but that's kind of like a trophy to have that. You know, I don't know that it's quite so often that you know, anything by Jay-Z comes up. I think it was, there's a piece of Can I Live on there, which, which is pretty cool, so, you know, that that might have added, you know, a certain premium to it. 

[00:15:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I was going to ask you that. What do you think is the crowning jewel of this catalog? I mean, every one of these catalog sales, it has the typical 80- 20 or the power law thing, where there is a few big songs that are really generating everything. I mean, you mentioned J.Lo. I mean, I'm Real has to be one of the biggest Murder Inc. songs they had, or maybe Always On Time with, you know, Ja Rule and Ashanti. Are there any others that stick out?

[00:15:48] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I mean, the Jay-Z one for sure. Which DMX song was it? It was a pretty big one. I think it's What's My Name? 

[00:15:54] Dan Runcie: Oh, What's My Name. Oh, that, that was on X's catalog. That was Ruff Ryders and Def Jam. 

[00:15:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh, that was. Okay. 

[00:15:59] Dan Runcie: But Jay-Z, they, they were on It's Murda though, right? It's Murda from Ja Rule's Venni Vetti Vecci that had Jay and DMX. 

[00:16:07] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: That's right. Okay.

[00:16:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Is that right?

[00:16:09] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: It was, it was some, it was like somewhere in the discography. I was looking at it though. Oh, well, I'll track it down someday. We'll have to talk about it the next time. But there was, there was a big DMX single that somehow ended up on there that caught my eye. But, you know, like a lot of the Ja Rule stuff, I think. I think maybe Livin' It Up was on there. 

[00:16:26] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah, that was big.

[00:16:27] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: That's a huge one.

[00:16:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, like Down 4 U, like Down Ass Bitch, like, you had a few of those that were in it. I think Ashanti had some big ones, too, like Foolish. Foolish was huge. 

[00:16:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Oh, yeah, here. Okay, it says What's My Name. It said that he produced What's My Name. So that's why, even though it wasn't...

[00:16:45] Dan Runcie: Oh, interesting.

[00:16:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. What's Luv? That's a huge one. 

[00:16:50] Dan Runcie: Oh, that's a big one. Yep. With Fat Joe and Ashanti, yep. 

[00:16:53] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. Can I Live, Holla Holla, you know, so there's, there's some really good stuff on there. And I think you're right. It's probably, there's a couple, you know, without us having a, a look at the statements, it's hard to know, but it, it wouldn't surprise me if one of those songs is just like a sleeper hit that just continues to, I mean, we know it's a big hit, but it, it could be, like, way more lucrative than we ever imagined. Or one of those could have been in a movie, you know, more, more than the others or something like that. So, you know, I think a lot of these songs are going to be, actually, that's what one of the lawyers I reached out to about this said. He was like, you know, there's a lot of stuff in there that is very interesting from the sync perspective. You know, to the sort of like Millennial, Xennial crowd that grew up on that that would love to see it in movies, and TV, and video games, so yeah, that could be part of it, too.

[00:17:38] Dan Runcie: Big on sync. Also, big on the likelihood of being turned into some viral TikTok trend. I don't know if that is a quantifiable metric they're using, but I would, I think it is. I just think of so many, the TikTok things that blow up and that era of early 2000s, late 90s hip-hop has done really well in a lot of ways. And sometimes it's so random, but I do think that that Murder Inc. sound captures so much of that. It's only before long that someone finds some, like, weird thing that happened in one of the music videos, and then that then becomes viral, and then it becomes like a whole TikTok viral campaign. 

[00:18:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yep. Yep. Although don't know how, how much they'll be getting paid from TikTok, but that's a whole other, that's a whole other story.

[00:18:23] Dan Runcie: We'll have to save that one for our next, for the next chat. We got to see how that whole situation firms up. But so the next topic that we want to talk about is a fascinating piece that was a guest post that was written by someone that you had worked with, Tiffany, and she wrote a really interesting essay on why mood is the new musical genre. And when you picked me on this, I read it, and it stuck out because I was like, you know what? It's a hundred percent right. If you look at Spotify and you look at how all these streaming services have shifted, how music is being consumed and listened to. Yeah, it isn't rock, pop country, hip-hop. It's a lo-fi chill vibes. It's, you know, backyard barbecue hang. It's all of these super niche things that reflect a lot more of where music listening is going. And I could only imagine there's so many broader implications that it can have, but I'd love to hear what you think about it. 

[00:19:26] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. So I've been out on paternity leave and, you know, not really writing, but Tiffany who's a really great writer and, and was doing some research for me while she was a senior at, at my alma mater, at Yale. And, and she and I were actually, we worked on the same, basically, arts and culture desk on the school newspaper, you know, whatever it was, 15 years apart. So she, while I was out, she wrote this great long piece kind of talking about how, you know, from her generation's perspective, this idea that, yeah, that you would classify things by genre or really identify yourself as like a hip-hop fan or a rock fan or whatever, is all kind of moot. It's like an old people thing. And that her generation is more about moods and, and like you say, it's backyard barbecue or whatever it is. And people don't, you know, really care about genres so much anymore, you know, amongst the sort of Gen Z crowd, and she, you know, really kind of dug into some, I think, great examples of it and talked about Spotify classifications and how they put together, Audio Auras that give you your kind of, like, yearend picture of your listening tastes. And I think it's a really great point. And I think that, you know, our generation, in general, is pretty hung up on labels. You know, everything from music to sexuality, to whatever, you know, it's like things are, have to be classified and, you know, there's kind of an obsession over putting things in buckets. Whereas I think Gen Z is, is a lot more about fluidity and sort of like, you know, questioning why we need these labels at all to begin with, or at least like, maybe we should just loosen up a little bit about them, which I think makes a ton of sense, you know? I mean, I remember when Halsey put out that song, New Americana, and she talked about being raised on Biggie and Nirvana. And I was like, yeah, that's me. Like, I get that. But that always felt weird when people were like, well, what kind of music are you into? And I was like hip-hop, and grunge rock, and like some other stuff. That was always sort of weird, but I think it's good to see the next generation kind of embrace that more and that's what the article kind of dug into.

[00:21:22] Dan Runcie: The label and generation identification is a huge thing. Do you remember growing up when the labels of how we were and folks were in middle school and high school was such a thing that people went down the road, it was like, oh, you're a skater? Oh, then you listen to Linkin Park. Then you listen to this and you dress, and you wear like JNCO jeans, like with the chain hanging from the back of your pocket to the front or whatever. You're a prep? Okay, you shop at Abercrombie & Fitch. You're probably wearing Adidas Superstars and you probably, I don't know, clothes from, like Structure or like Express, and stuff like that. Like, there were all these buckets, too, and then it extended as well. If you listen to hip. You probably wore Timberlands. You probably had Nike Air Force 1s, Ecko, or whatever the popular clothes were at times. Like, all of these things and this generation and timeframe is just like, no, that's not the case. And I think this mood thing factors in a lot of that. I think we're almost seeing this to some extent with things we've kind of just seen, like regionality as well. 

[00:22:29] Dan Runcie: Like, I've heard a lot of people talk about how from, you know, certain generations it's like, oh, like, well, people in Seattle, they dress like this. Like, you could go to Seattle, walk or like, you know, the Pacific Northwest and everyone's wearing flannel like it's a Nirvana music video or whatever. Or if you go down south, like I would visit my cousins in Florida growing up and they would be listening to Ying Yang Twins and all these other songs that were popular at the time. And we just weren't listening to that stuff nearly as much growing up in the Northeast. And it hit that vibe. And I think now, too, because of the internet, so much of that generationality piece just, or not the generationality, the geographical identity is also dissipated, too, where people in Seattle can, you know, feel no different, especially from a youth perspective, could feel no different than someone growing up in Miami or Fort Lauderdale or whatever it is. So I'm curious to see how is that going to shape? Even the legacy labels that we do have on things. I think that the Grammys is, you know, clearly an institution that has prided itself on the number of options that it's given particular artists to have and celebrate their particular genre of music based on these legacy labels. I think it takes a lot of time for those things to change, but will we see that? Could you eventually see things where I think pop radio in a lot of ways? And radio, in general, is still one of the things that's still holding onto this generational, you know, label divides much to a fault because I think there's still certain types of artists that are precluded from being heard on Z100 or being heard on your mainstream stations, so, I think that it may still take time to get there, but I'm curious to see what did that look like 20 years, 20 years from now? Will we still see the same restrictions on radio and in award ceremonies? 'Cause I think those are the two areas that feel harder to disrupt than the broader culture that already has been disrupted by it.

[00:24:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. And one of the other things that Tiffany wrote about in this article which you, oh, you can read it, just it's zogblog.com, and you can go through the newsletter. It's the latest post. I'll be back writing in a week or two, I think. But anyway, it's up there on zogblog.com and she said, she pointed out the IGOR one for best rap album, even though it's not really a rap album. Like, it's already happening, right, like, in categories at the Grammy's. So, right, like how, how soon until we start to change that or, or even have sort of like, broader, you know, kinds of labels. Like, what if it's like, you know, best chill album, you know? Best barbecue album? I don't know. So I'd love to see how that, how that kind of turns out. But, man, I remember, you know, in the nineties, when you would sort of put on your AOL profile what kind of music you listen to. A lot of people sort of also define themselves in opposition to certain genres. They're like, I listen to anything but country and rap, you know? That, I remember a lot of people that, anything but rap, anything but country. That was sort of their battle cry. And you know, I just don't see too much of that anymore. And I think that's a great thing, you know, like, why should you have to limit your taste? It's like, you know, you don't want to be a traitor to, to your emo, whatever, by, by listening to hip-hop. But now we have like emo hip-hop. It's great. I think it's cool that we have, you know, all these kinds of like mixings and subgenres.

[00:25:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah, if anything, I think I'll see the angst more for particular artists themselves and not necessarily the broader genre, right? Like, I know there's people that, you know, they just don't like Post Malone for a number of reasons. And it's like, I get it, but you can't put Post Malone in a musical category to be like, oh, I don't like this type of music 'cause I guarantee you, whatever, you know, genre of music, you want to put him in, there's going to be an artist that sounds like him, may not look like him, may not have a fan base that, you know, vibes the way that his does, but you're probably going to like something of that, you know, type of thing, right?

[00:26:30] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've gotten into so many arguments about how to classify Post Malone. Some people say he is hip-hop, which I don't really, I wouldn't classify him as hip-hop. Is he pop? I guess. I guess that's what you'd call it, but, you know, I wouldn't really say that he's rock.

[00:26:45] Dan Runcie: I would call him pop, yeah.

[00:26:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Pop yeah. Pop or sad frat party or something, you know? I mean, mood. I think mood is a great way with him, too. 

[00:26:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I mean, is there any other broader implication that you can think of with how moods will just continue to shift over time and how moods may play a bigger role in music, either how it's consumed or how it's monetized? 

[00:27:10] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I mean, I think really what's on my mind about that right now is I go back to what you were saying about regionalism. And, you know, I wonder if sort of this movement away from labels of genre, more toward labels of mood has to do with the fact that you know, there's sort of like, you know, national moods almost that you can attach to music in a way that you couldn't when things were sort of regional. And, you know, there was that whole moment where radio, sort of like the consolidation of radio, that kind of switch over to like the clear channel model. And you, you had sort of like the same, you know, whatever it was, KISS-FM or something like that, and you had these big playlists that were just kind of on rotation, the same playlists like all over the country, and you kind of lost a little bit of that local flavor. But actually, you know, as people were lamenting that the whole thing shifted over to streaming. And there's no regional streaming, right? And so I think it sort of follows that mood would sort of like become a new means of classification because once you eliminate the regional aspect to it you know, I don't know, it's, it's sort of like it maybe unnecessary movement to happen over time. And I think, you know, There's some cons to losing the regionalism and, you know, you get some unique sounds and certainly within hip-hop, it was really cool to see like Houston versus Bay Area, you know, like very specific microclimate-type sounds that you could get that, that, you know, within kind of bubble up and percolate into different like more mainstream hip-hop sounds. But you know, then again, I think it's cool to just other genres meld into other genres and have that be kind of the mixing that happens too. So, you know, pros and cons, but I think, I think there are a lot of pros to the mood thing over the genre label thing.

[00:29:00] Dan Runcie: So before long, we're going to have to pour some out for the dirty south hip-hop playlist. Got so much play over time.  And maybe this regionalism trend or trend away from regionalism is just the way things are going. This is a sports analogy, more so, and there's other reasons behind it. But I look at what's happening in college sports right now with these major teams joining the Big Ten, joining the you know, or the Big East no longer really being a thing, and how so much of that is just a sign of where things are right now. And so much of what people really appreciated about what these conferences could tell you about a particular place in the country, that's not necessarily going to be the case if, you know, Texas and its whole culture is coming and joining, you know, joining the ECC, right? It's just very different. 

[00:29:53] Dan Runcie: And I think to bring this conversation full circle, too, it's like, I've heard through the grapevines about record labels that had wanted to start their own metaverse experiences and being like, okay, this is the record label's metaverse experience. And then someone wisely told them, Hey, no one cares about your record label. Like, that's not the draw here. Like, I mean, in the folks that are inside the industry, of course, you can share the accolades and stuff like that. But the fans care about the artists. They're not going to be drawn. Like, the days are done of people being like, oh yeah, no Def Jam, like, in the heyday, I'm there. Like, that's just not how it works anymore. 

[00:30:29] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. You know, I mean, if you're really in the business, you know, which labels have which ethos. But, you know, it, it really has blurred together more and more. And yeah, I think in the old days, you know, people would be like, oh, I'm an Atlantic records fan. You know, because when they pulled out that vinyl, you know, they saw that logo, and they knew that there was a certain type of artist and that Atlantic Records were a curator of the type of music that they liked. And maybe it wasn't the same genre always, but there was, you know, they knew that it would be good. But if you're a casual listener, there's not really even an opportunity to easily know what label anybody is on. So why would you care? And I think, especially since you know, I mean, I think there was a heyday in the nineties of hip-hop artists shouting out the record labels that they were on or that they owned and that was sort of, you know, important. Definitely, like Ruff Ryders had a very different ethos from Bad Boy. And, you know, you might classify yourself, you know, more in one bucket or another and identify with that. But I think so much of that has just dissipated in the streaming era, 'cause yeah, you're not looking at a physical thing. So you know, who knows, who cares what labels anybody on, and why the hell would you really want to go to an individual label metaverse thing? I'm glad somebody told them that they shouldn't be doing that anymore. 

[00:31:43] Dan Runcie: Definitely. No, definitely. All right. Well, we saved some time at the end for the section that's near and dear to both of us, as, you know, if you followed either my writing or Zack's writing recently, you know, that we both had kids very recently. So Zack had his daughter in May. I had mine in June, and it's been great to just, you know, connect and bond and hear more about how things were for both of us leading up to this point and now after. So I figured now that we're on the other side of it with relatively newborn and young children, we could have a little section here called Girl Dad Life, where we each share one interesting or funny experience that's happened for both of us trying to navigate fatherhood here. So Zack, I'll let you start. What's your experience been like? And what's yours?

[00:32:30] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. You know, less than a, like a specific story, it's really more about an overall vibe mood, if you will. Man, I know it sounds corny, but the moment you become a parent, this compartment opens up inside of you and it's just filled with a new capacity to love that you didn't know was in there. And it just is like overwhelming and beautiful and is, is the best thing that's ever happened to me. And I think that one of the things, you know, like I think the best advice I would give is, is that there's no, like, right way to do it. And people have been having babies for a very long time without all the gear and whatever, and we've survived, as the human race. But I think the thing that, that always surprises and delights me is that you know, Riley, despite being eight weeks old, I mean, from the very beginning, has been a little human who, who knows what she wants. And it's like pretty straightforward. If she's crying, you know, she needs to go to sleep. She needs food or she needs a diaper change. And if she doesn't like that, it's time to put on, like, any number of different songs or albums that she likes. And she's, talk about a musical omnivore. Oh, my God. She loves, like, Shirley Bassey, Big Spender. She loves Biggie, Mo Money Mo Problems. You know, she's really like, no genre constraints when you're an infant. And I think it's just really cool to see that, you know, she could be crying and then that beat comes on and she starts smiling, you know?

[00:34:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I would also say like, I, I read this book called Bringing Up Bébé, and it's all about the French method of child-rearing. And they're really big into this idea of, like, the baby is a human with thoughts and preferences the minute they come out of the womb and sort of just like paying attention, you know, and, and also giving them a second to try to figure whatever it is out. Like, if your baby starts to cry, you know, don't necessarily just, like, drop everything, rush in and, you know, give your baby a second to try to figure it out. And sometimes they won't. And then you go and tend to them, but, like, if you don't give them a chance to figure it out as babies, then they'll never be able to sort of figure it out on their own as adults. So I thought that was a really cool insight. How about you? 

[00:34:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's funny. You recommended that book to me, a couple of other friends did too. And I read it and yeah, it was a really an interesting read and it was a good reminder of, like, yeah, people have been doing this for plenty of years, and just because your baby doesn't have the newest, fanciest insert whatever, stroller, bassinet this and that, like, the fact that you're thinking about this to this extent means that you'll probably be fine and the baby will be fine. But a few funny stories that we have that I could share, so one of them when we were in the labor delivery phase, one of the folks that was in the room with us, she was a volunteer doula that was helping with a few things. She had asked me, she was like, oh, did you want me to take pictures? Because she could see I was trying to, like, multitask. My wife had wanted me to take some pictures and I was like, yeah, sure. So then not only did she take pictures, she took a video of everything, from like the moment of, you know, when my wife started pushing to everything after. And then I remember like when, you know, my wife was still recovering, I watched it, and I was like, oh wow, I did not realize she captured everything. And then my wife was just like, I do not want to see that. And then I think she heard me watch it. And then she was like, okay, I have to see that. She was like, was that me? Like? I was like, yes, yes, that was you. But it's okay. You know, completely normal, unexpected. So that's, what's there. But, yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree with you more on, you know, everything from the love, life-changing perspective, you know, something we had wanted, and, you know, it's been so good from that perspective and just pick it up on cues and stuff. There are definitely a few funny moments that we'll always crack ourselves up as 'cause you have to, right? It's like, I mean, you know, we both know what it's like with the whole sleep deprived, everything and, and all that. But you do start to notice the baby's patterns and stuff. And like how they'll react to, you know, when you're either about to feed or when you're about to give a bottle or any of those things and just the instant reaction, so. It's something else. But, you know, it's been good. I mean, we're recording today. Today's actually one month since she was born. 

[00:36:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh, my gosh. 

[00:36:39] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Time has is flown by, time has flown by. And this is, like, the first podcast I had done since then. Everything else up to this point had been pre-recorded stuff we planned, so slowly getting back into the swing of things. I think I'll most likely be back in like a full-time perspective, maybe sometime later this month, but I think, you know, just going slowly week by week there. It feels good to have the work stuff to mix in with everything, but like, life-changing in the best way.

[00:37:03] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, well so you're coming up on five weeks and actually one of my favorite moments so far happened at five weeks. My wife and I went out with Riley  and we went out for dinner at a sidewalk cafe in New York. And, you know, Riley's, like, sleeping, we're having a great time and chatting and eating. And you know, after maybe like an hour, she starts crying, and so I take her out and I'm kind of rocking her, and she's crying. And there are these ladies sitting next to us  and I was like, oh, I'm so sorry.  And they're both like, no, really don't worry, we have babies at home. And my wife goes, do you have any advice for us? And the one lady goes, how old's your baby? And Danielle says five weeks. And she goes, honey, you don't need any advice. You're at a restaurant with the five week old.  Like, God bless you.  And that was exactly, exactly what we needed to hear. And I think it's also like a great indication of, you know, your old life isn't over. You could still do stuff. You just have to plan it a little more carefully and be flexible. And  I was shocked like if you had told me a couple months ago that I'd be doing that at five weeks, I wouldn't have believed you. But it's been really cool to just have the summer to chill out and spend time with Riley, and it's so cool to be having like the same timing as you would kind of like  go through the milestones, so. 

[00:38:18] Dan Runcie: Definitely. When do you think you'll bring Riley to a music festival or some type of event like that where she's wearing the headphones and you and Danielle enjoying yourselves?

[00:38:29] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: We already got her headphones.

[00:38:31] Dan Runcie: Ear muffs, I should say. I said headphones.

[00:38:33] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, right, right. Ear muffs. Well, we put them on, we did a trial run on the 4th of July. And initially, she smiled a lot and I think she thought they were pretty cool. And then she was like, get this shit off of me. So I don't know. We actually were thinking of venturing into Central Park to SummerStage. A couple of weeks ago, I think Trombone Shorty was there. And then our plan just got blown up with like the various feeding schedules and things like that. So I don't know. I think we're ready to try. I think it just has to be a SummerStage thing, and it has to be like not too hot or too cold, and go for it. But I think the first time we're just not going to buy tickets. We're just going to stand outside, and see how it goes, you know, for like a half an hour. And then if that's okay, then maybe we'll work our way up. But yeah, I mean, so great to be in a, in a place where live music is just, you know, a short walk away. She hates being in the car, so it's a good thing we're in New York. 

[00:39:29] Dan Runcie: Perfect. No, that's great. 

[00:39:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: When's your first concert plan? 

[00:39:34] Dan Runcie: It's funny because last year Outside Lands here in San Francisco was in October. So in my mind, I was like, oh yeah, we could do it in October. But then I forgot that it was a pandemic year and Outside Lands is in August. So that's like two weeks from now. It's, like, the first weekend in August that Outside Lands is, and a concert might be a little much in, you know, two weeks if you're listening to this one week from recording. But I'm hoping that, you know, some early fall, hopefully, we could do something. 

[00:40:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Fingers crossed for both of us. 

[00:40:03] Dan Runcie: Definitely, definitely. Well, Zack, this is a pleasure. Appreciate you coming on. We'll make sure that we link to Tiffany's post in the show notes and, yeah, so next time, we'll hit you up and then, you know, we can definitely save some stuff for our next Girl Dad Life quarter, and I'm sure there'll be plenty of stuff happening in the industry. Everyone's on vacation right now, relaxing, but soon enough things will be ramping back up. 

[00:40:26] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Amen. Well, thanks for having me on Dan as always, and best of luck on fatherhood on your end, too. 

[00:40:31] Dan Runcie: Likewise. Thanks, man. 

[00:40:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: All right.


[00:40:34] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.


]]> 2468 no Why Talib Kweli is Focused on his Fans https://www.trapital.com/podcast Twenty-four years after their debut album, Black Star — the duo of Talib Kweli and Yasiin Bey — is back with its sophomore release, “No Fear Of Time.” Talib joined Trapital to discuss the long-awaited return album (which dropped in May) and why it was released exclusively on the paid-subscription podcast platform Luminary. Spurning traditional streaming platforms like Apple Music or Spotify was about serving its true fans, Talib told me during our interview. The pair was already in business with Luminary, hosting an original podcast “The Midnight Miracle” alongside Dave Chappelle. The way Talib sees it, the group’s most dedicated fans — one’s that care about them on a personal level beyond just spitting bars — were already rocking with them on Luminary. And after a career that’s spanned four decades, Talib is more interested in engaging his core fanbase rather than reaching the masses.  Disruptive art is on-brand for Black Star. Similarly, Yasiin’s latest solo album was exclusively distributed inside a 10-week art exhibit in Brooklyn. For Talib, he’s blended different musical genres and sounds his entire career. “As an artist, it’s my duty to try everything I can,” he told me on this episode.  For a closer look at Talib’s creative and business approach, you’ll want to hear our interview in full. Here’s all our talking points during the episode: [3:16] Black Star’s New Album “No Fear Of Time” [4:10] Why The Album Released Exclusively On Luminary Podcast Network [8:07] Why Talib Moved Away From Patreon [10:37] Art Vs. Business [14:11] What Talib Has Learned In Different Creative Pursuits  [15:55] Yasiin Bey Makes Talib “Step Up” [19:23] TikTok’s Influence On Modern-Day Music [23:00] Why Talib Avoided Clubhouse  [25:12] Talib Doesn’t Miss Twitter [29:41] Speaking Out Against Online Trolls [33:51] Putting Out Music On “Own Terms” [35:24] Talib Did 200 Shows A Year For Two Decades Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Talib Kweli, @talibkweli   Sponsors: beatBread is your music platform to get funding and stay in control. You can get advances from $1,000 to $2 million, and you keep your masters. To learn more, go to beatBread.com   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Talib Kweli: Most of my music is available for free on YouTube. On Kweliclub.com, you can get all my mixtapes for free. You can get the album Fuck the Money for free. My biggest song Get By, you could, if that shit came on in the store, you could Shazam it and listen to it on Shazam for free, you know what I'm saying? [00:00:16] Talib Kweli: Like, it's got 15 million views on YouTube. You could go listen to it on YouTube for free. You mean to tell me I can't get $10 or $5 or $30 with a new Black Star album with all this free music you're getting? What are we even talking about? You know what I'm saying? Like, how are you ignoring all of this, to complain about this? [00:00:42] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:01:03] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is the one and only Talib Kweli. He is one half of Black Star which is back with its second album since their debut 24 years ago, 24 years. It's crazy how long it's been. But it was great to talk to him about why he chose to release it now and also why he chose to release it exclusively on Luminary. [00:01:25] Dan Runcie: Luminary is a paid audio platform, specifically known for podcasting. So we talked about that decision, why it was important for him and Yasiin to release it on a platform where they already had a podcast and what that means for him moving forward. And what it ultimately focuses on is the quest for autonomy and control and independence in being able to reap the rewards that come from it. [00:01:49] Dan Runcie: This is nothing new to Talib Kweli. He's released music on his own website, Kweli Club. He's used Patreon as well to release his music. So we talked about what the decision was like to release on Luminary and more broadly what this means for him as an artist. He's someone that has toured a lot over the years. [00:02:07] Dan Runcie: So we talked about what it's been like since the pandemic. What it's been like finding the right sound and themes given so much of the conscious rap that Black Star and Talib himself were known for over the years. And we talked about a whole bunch of other trends in the industry. Great conversation, really insightful. [00:02:24] Dan Runcie: Hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Talib Kweli. All right. So today we have the one and only Talib Kweli, one half a Black Star, which is back with its latest album, No Fear of Time. So the album's been out for a little bit, man. How are you feeling? How do you feel about the response?  [00:02:41] Talib Kweli: I feel grateful and blessed, and I'm happy that the fans have gotten a chance to hear it. I've been listening to it or iterations of it for a number of years now. And I'm just happy to have gotten it out.  [00:02:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I bet. I think too, I'm glad that the fans are hearing it 'cause one of the big discussion points about the album, which stuck out to me, was how you chose to release it. And I give you so much respect for doing it on your terms and not necessarily following the main path because we all know that artists have their own autonomy and independence. Like, you don't have to just do the standard thing. So credit to you on that.  [00:03:16] Talib Kweli: Well, yeah, you know, all praises due to the most high and really, I give the credit to Yas he was the one that really stuck to his guns on that. You know, my music is widely available or many platforms, not all of it, you know, some, some things I have exclusive, but we've had offers as you can imagine all through the years to ways to put out the Black Star album in a more traditional way. [00:03:37] Talib Kweli: Yasiin stuck to his guns on that. And by default, just me, me being in a group with him, I benefit from that. Because the situation absolutely was a beneficial situation to me and, to be frank with you, one of my most favorite situations I've been in business-wise in terms of my relationship with my art and how it gets out to people. [00:03:59] Dan Runcie: That's good. That's good to hear because I know that you've done a few different things independently. You've released albums on your own website before, you've done Patreon. What made you choose Luminary this time?  [00:04:10] Talib Kweli: Well, we were already in a very fruitful relationship with Luminary due to the fact that we had the podcast on Luminary with Dave Chappelle, the Midnight Miracle Podcast. [00:04:19] Talib Kweli: And it was attractive to us, the idea that fans who are willing to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak, fans that are already spending money with us, fans that are following us enough to know where we at, fans that are interested in our conversation, right? Fans that are interested in us as men, as human beings and not just like feed us, feed us, feed us art, feed us content, but fans that are really interested in what we think and how we see the world and how we see art.  [00:04:50] Talib Kweli: Those fans, I feel like, that niche was either already on Luminary rocking with the Midnight Miracle or if they had heard about the Midnight Miracle, that would be exciting to them. And so just automatically it weeds out the people who are like, Nah, I'm not interested in you as a human being. I'm not interested in how you feed your family. [00:05:11] Talib Kweli: I'm not interested in your, your thoughts on the state of the industry. I just like them bars and the beats. I just want to hear the music. But that's not the fan I want, you know, and that's not a fan. That's pop music. Pop music is like a blanket, trying to blanket and cover everything and get every single ear. [00:05:28] Talib Kweli: And I don't need every single ear and I don't need all eyes on me. I just want to rock with the people who want to rock with me. And that, that's the first thing beyond the fact that, you know, the business of Luminary is, that we're in is a fair arrangement. It's not, you know, it's not ownership. [00:05:45] Talib Kweli: It's just fair. It's the antithesis of what happens with most of these streaming networks, most of these DSPs. So it's, it's just a, it's a good situation. And it's not, you know, the news was, was announced that Dave Chappelle at other people had been invested in Luminary. So it's not just something where it's like, we're asking people to come to something that we personally don't put our money where our mouth is, you know what I'm saying?  [00:06:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Because that's what I saw. I saw that Dave Chappelle was an investor. I assumed that maybe you and Yasiin were as well. And 'cause I know some people, I wondered, okay, well, if I was going to do $5 a month, is that $5 that I could just put directly in Talib's pocket? [00:06:25] Dan Runcie: But you're like, Hey, we also want to support the people that have clearly been with us, paying for Midnight Miracles, paying for our content. So it's not just about the monetary aspect. It's about being able to share and celebrate with the people that have already been with you.  [00:06:39] Talib Kweli: Yeah, exactly. And I can't speak for Yasiin's investment to what he do with his money. You know, that's, that's really his business. I really don't know. But for me, I, I have Kweli Club, as you mentioned, and I'm very proud of Kweli Club, but people are not there. You know, I've never been on Bandcamp. I just started a page on Bandcamp this week for the first time because I've heard about Bandcamp. [00:07:02] Talib Kweli: But in my mind, I'm like I could do that with Kweli Club. I could have my own Bandcamp. And Kweli Club is still rocking and is a unique experience to sell books there, there's product and information and things you could get from me there that you can't get no place else. But now you can also get my music, some of it on Bandcamp and the Black Star album is on Luminary. And I think I'm going to probably do some more things with Luminary.  [00:07:23] Talib Kweli: It has all these other podcasts and it's like, whether you're into those podcasts or not, right? Like, you might not want to hear Trevor Noah, or Roxane Gay, or Russell Brand, or some of the other podcasts they have there, or the People's Party, or Midnight Miracle. But you can't say, well, we're just asking you to pay for this album. You can't say that 'cause that's not accurate. What you're paying for, you're getting a lot more than an album.  [00:07:47] Dan Runcie: I agree with that. And I think the distinction here, too, that I think about, I know you mentioned on your website, of course, you could do it there, but that's not necessarily whereas many of the fans are, as you mentioned, how does this compare to Patreon? For instance, I know you've used that in the past to release art and release your work specifically. [00:08:07] Talib Kweli: I respect the Patreon audience, and the Patreon people, and the people who started it. It's a very good idea. That is very artist-centric. But for me personally, it was Patreon just like everything else is based on your level of engagement. It's a social media platform, right? So the more you engage there, the better it's going to be. [00:08:25] Talib Kweli: And they got, what, the Discord. They're plugged in LinkedIn with, and it's just for me, we're already engaging on other social media apps to then take that time. And I engage where I enjoy, right? I don't do it just for business. Like, I'm talking about things I enjoy. And also that, because I enjoy the engagement, it's also rewarding to me. [00:08:45] Talib Kweli: It brings followers and listeners, whatever, but you just to add time to do it on Patreon, I didn't, I couldn't get into the engaging in the social media part of Patreon. And I feel like for me personally if you're not going to, I feel like if I wanted to engage to the level of some of the other creators on Patreon, I probably would've done better there, but my interest never, never quite got to there. [00:09:11] Talib Kweli: And so that's what this is, there's no disrespect to that platform. I just think it's a personal taste or what you enjoy doing. And I see, I see people who do very well on Patreon.  [00:09:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I feel like for you specifically, we are talking about being able to invest in a platform, not just with your money, but with your time as well. [00:09:32] Dan Runcie: And if you're going to get the most out of a platform, you got to put a lot into it. And you already had work in luminaries. So I feel like that connection was there for you. And this also makes me think back to when you had released your Gutter Rainbows album. This was back in 2011, and I feel like at least of what you had written at the time, this was a bit of a, a turning point for you because I think what we're talking about is the autonomy, and the independence, and the impact of that, especially from an economic perspective where you're like, you know, you put up your own money, you tripled your investment in a few months, and you're like, even at the more commercially successful albums you had before that, you never saw something like that. And I feel like that shaped a lot of your experience and outlook forward. [00:10:15] Talib Kweli: Yeah. And it's even in 2022, it's even more like that. I'm still learning, and growing, and bending, and shifting. And the space I'm in now is even a lot more independent than I was when Gutter Rainbows came out. Now it's just like the industry's completely broken down. Like, when Gutter Rainbows came out, it was like on the way to really, really breaking down. [00:10:37] Talib Kweli: But now it's completely broken down. It's like the wild, wild west. And it's like really about what you invest in yourself. It's really about focusing on the business aspect of it, like where you completely leave the ego out of it. And that's so difficult for a lot of artists because a lot of art can be, for better or for worse, ego-driven. And it can be, you know, people say that art is reciprocal. You want people to like your art, you put it out in the world, and you search around to see who's feeling it. And that could really have an adverse effect on your ego and what your value system is, right? [00:11:10] Talib Kweli: And, you know, me as an artist personally, I've spent money. I've invested in things that I knew I wasn't going to see no return on, over and over and over again, just for the sake of the art, just for the sake of the culture. And I'm not just talking about my art. I'm talking about other artists on Javotti Media, you know, there's things that I've invested in and I'm like, I don't see a path to making a profit here unless by some stroke of luck or miracle, something, someone feels as strongly about this art as I do. [00:11:39] Talib Kweli: And it gets a placement somewhere. Someone picks it up for a movie or something, like that's possible, or use it in a commercial, stuff like that. But I mean, those are long shots. That's not a guarantee. That's not like a plan for success, unless you're going into those situations where you're, you're knowing how to pitch those things and have those relationships, which I did not and do not, you know, so yeah. [00:12:02] Talib Kweli: My thinking on it now is not that at all. Because I've done that. I've done the artist thing for so, so, so, so long, and I'm not really a businessman at all. I'm a businessman by default. I'm a businessman because I have to be, I love, I love this art so much. I love this culture so much. And in order to sustain myself, in order to live the life I want to live and to feed my family, offer this art I had to learn a certain degree of money management, time management, business management in order to just do what I do, but I don't enjoy it. [00:12:32] Talib Kweli: and this is why this conversation was in, in doing this podcast was interesting to me because I think it's very important whether I enjoy it or not. [00:12:41] Dan Runcie: I think that's an important distinction, because I do think that we see artists now that clearly you could get the sense that music is an afterthought for the bag that they're trying to get. But at the end of the day, I still believe that most of the people in this want to do it primarily because they love the art and they are much more aligned with you where it's like, they had to do this because they didn't want to get, you know, taken advantage of by the system. [00:13:05] Dan Runcie: They didn't want to not have things work out in their favor. So by default, you have to have some, you know, cursory level of knowing what works and what doesn't. And as you kind of mentioned earlier, that bar has increased a lot since Gutter Rainbows, that has increased a lot since so many of these things. [00:13:22] Dan Runcie: So the landscape forces you to do that, or else you may likely get taken advantage of unless things work out luckily in your favor. [00:13:31] Dan Runcie: I think, too, for you, something else you mentioned with this, just thinking about needing to reach so many fans, if you are relying on this major system, so much of that relies on taking you away from the core people that are really rocking with you, because if you're trying to reach the masses and you're trying to do what a major label may want you to do to try to reach the masses. [00:13:53] Dan Runcie: then you may have, they may want you to either shift your sound. They may want you to try to do all these things, which further take away from the autonomy and control that you clearly want to be able to have. So I get the sense that this more recent stage of your career has likely been more freeing from that perspective. [00:14:11] Talib Kweli: Yeah, I mean, as an artist, I really, really, really want to try everything. I've definitely tried in my music to make music, to take aspects of what I do, who I am as an anti-racist person, as a pro-black person, as a person who likes a certain type of what they call underground hip-hop and take those sensibilities and stretch them, expand them and find global audiences. [00:14:34] Talib Kweli: And I've worked with artists all over the world from different genres. I've tried many different styles. I've sang. I've done double time. I've done, you know, I've round over trap beats. I've done it at all. I've tried every single thing because as an artist, not only is that my right, feel like it's my duty to try everything I can. [00:14:52] Talib Kweli: But in that trying, what I've learned is is that the more I try different things, the more I start to lean towards being comfortable in being the best at what I do, finding that thing that what it is that's unique about me and finding that. And I've tried that through my career. [00:15:09] Talib Kweli: People, there's albums of songs, things that people are, like, maybe be like, I don't like when Talib did this, or I don't like when Talib did that. And some of that, some of it worked and some of it didn't. There's some of it that I love that people hate. And some of it that people hate that I love, I don't even know if I just said the same thing twice, but you know what I'm getting at. [00:15:27] Talib Kweli: But in this state, business-wise and creative-wise, I'm closer to the vest and more about what is it that I do best. And try to put that on display.  [00:15:40] Dan Runcie: Right. And that last piece you talked about in terms of doing things you loved that the fans didn't like, or the fans not doing things you liked, but then you actually liked it yourself. Did any of that influence how you and Yasiin went about this latest album?  [00:15:55] Talib Kweli: Well, the good thing about Yasiin is that he try, he does try as much as I do. He tries different styles. Absolutely. I've heard him rap and sing on all different types of things. But what really helps shape the Black Star sound is I'm the steward of the beats and the administration. [00:16:12] Talib Kweli: Like, I'm going out and finding the beats, and looking for producers, and booking studios. I'm doing all that. But what Yasiin is doing is he's trying to get closer to God in his lyrics. You know, all his albums, all his projects start with Bismillah and all his bars and where he is trying to go lyrically is always about a higher level of self. And trying to get closer to God, whatever that is for you. And so it makes me step up, frankly, and it doesn't make me just step up, but it makes me because let's not get it fucked up. Like I don't slouch from my, on my other projects. You know what I'm saying? So it's not just about stepping up, but it's also about the focus. [00:16:54] Talib Kweli: It's just different. And it's like that when I worked with Styles P, it was a different type of focus. When I worked with 9th Wonder in them, it was a different type of focus. When I work with Hi-Tek, it was a different type of focus and, you know, even on my solo albums, even the producers I work with, whether it was DJ Scratch or Kanye, will.i.am, whoever. Like, wherever I go with that person is is pulling some out of me. And what Yasiin pulls out of me is wanting to be closer to God.  [00:17:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I definitely get the sense of that. And even listening to y'all two conversations, hearing it from the album and even just, you know, his own evolution with religion, I always got the sense that, for you two, like spirituality and the importance of that was always going to have a theme through its music. [00:17:36] Dan Runcie: And it's been interesting to see how, like, that piece from a tonality has evolved over time as well. The debut album you had, there were so many things that were timely to that era. And I think in this album, too, we're kind of seeing so much of it because I think that there's a lot of things, whether it's about, you know, black liberation, freedom that I think were relevant then, relevant now. However, it looks different in a way that I feel like you all are able to keep a lot of the same themes, but have more of a modern shift to it, which I don't think necessarily applies to a lot of people that are still creating music from the late nineties and putting it out today. [00:18:13] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I hear you. And I think that was very intentional on our part. This album was formed over a lot of conversation and, you know, it's 24 years since the last project in them, you know, there was a lot of attention to detail. A lot of attention to detail, but also with the idea that it's got to sound loose. It's got to sound organic, and raw, and loose. It can't sound overproduced.  [00:18:37] Dan Runcie: Right. And it has to be timely as well in a way that it can both stand, you know, the test of time. But it also, you know, whether you're talking about millennials and how people are relating to particular things, it has to relate to that piece. [00:18:51] Dan Runcie: And I feel like that resonated with me, at least, for being able to hear things as well. But there was something else you said even earlier in this conversation that I was thinking about in terms of doing things and you always willing to try things, whether it's going with EDM, working with different producers. I'm curious, how does that shift with looking at different formats as well to put out music? Because I know that there's this ongoing debate right now about artists and whether or not they should be forced to use TikTok or not, and whether or not people like to use TikTok. How do you feel about that? [00:19:23] Talib Kweli: Yeah, I was watching the Billboard Awards and that's when I first, I knew in the abstract that everything was moving towards TikTok, right? But watching the Billboard Awards, it hit me when they were introducing every single artist that was popular. Most of them I hadn't heard of or heard their song, but every single thing they were announcing was like, this is how it performed at TikTok. And for how I grew up, that was the radio. [00:19:43] Talib Kweli: And so I was like, now we're an era where the radio is not on his way to be obsolete, but completely obsolete. And let me be clear. I don't mean radio as a concept. I mean, commercialized pop radio and that system. Because clearly what you're doing is radio, you know, what I'm doing with People's Party and in Midnight Miracle is radio. So that's driving, right? [00:20:04] Talib Kweli: I feel like we're in almost in a golden age of radio, but as far as, like, with the music business, man, oh, man. Yeah, TikTok is, I just posted something today from, or that Earn Your Leisure poster about Isaac Hayes Jr., for Fanbase, talking about the algorithms and Instagram, and how, when it first started, you could gain 300,000 followers, very quickly, a million followers very quickly, but then once they had video and once they had ads, well, now you could be a network and now, the advertisers are going to come to you instead of coming to Instagram. So now they've made it so, that's why they shadowbanned people and limit content. I have a million people following me. If I post something, maybe 5,000 people will see it or like it, I don't know who, how many people see it. [00:20:44] Talib Kweli: I have to look at the insights, but I'm definitely not reaching everybody who I'm supposed to reach. And they'll be like, oh, well you could, if you pay us, you know what I'm saying? And so it's just interesting to see how with TikTok, which is Chinese-based if I'm not mistaken, I don't think they're doing that. I think they're allowing the content to reach who it's going to reach, or I might be mistaken about that. I don't know.  [00:21:05] Dan Runcie: I think that's going to shift with TikTok as well though, because I think we kind of saw the early stage where you could put up a song and, you know, like a Megan Thee Stallion song could blow up or whoever song could blow up. [00:21:16] Dan Runcie: But I think now they got over a billion people using it every day. I think we're going to see or using it every month rather. I think you're going to see the same type of shift happen there, too, eventually.  [00:21:27] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I mean, I post on TikTok and no one follows me on TikTok. It's like 4,000 people following me on TikTok. But again, it's the same thing with the Patreon thing. I'm not there, right? I'm not engaging with the people. I'm not clicking on videos, and scrolling through it, and, like, commenting. And I'm not doing anything. I'm just posting things, trying to get some engagement because people are there. I'm putting things up. But that's not really where my fans are looking for me yet at this point. [00:21:54] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. And especially with the demo that you're reaching, and they're not looking at you to go do some TikTok dance or something like that, right?  [00:22:01] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I saw The Game doing a TikTok dance. I mean, I hope that that's what he really wanted to do, you know what I'm saying? I hope that he's like, yo, I think that dance is hot, and I'm going to do that dance. Instead of like, damn I got to get on TikTok and do a dance, you know what I'm saying?  [00:22:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I do think even that piece of it's going to change too, though, because kind of like we saw on YouTube, right? Like people avoided YouTube for a while because they're, okay, I'm not going to go out here and go dance like Soulja Boy and try to do some viral video, but it eventually matured. And I think we're going to see the same with TikTok where, yeah, you don't have to do some dance that could fit in a vertical video, but you're going to see, you know, folks that you know, are trying to reach your demo, doing whatever the version is that's relatable to them. So it'll take time. In some ways, I feel like it's already happening. Yeah. [00:22:47] Dan Runcie: For you, I do think about even, you know, we're talking about spending time on different platforms. Did you dip into Clubhouse, especially when, you know, the hype on Clubhouse was big or?  [00:23:00] Talib Kweli: Oh no. They kicked me off at twitter for, they didn't like the way I was talking on Twitter. If they can't take what I write in text, they damn sure ain't going to be able to take my voice, you know what I'm saying? Clubhouse got popping right when I got kicked off of Twitter, and so I started getting like, you know, you got to invite people, right? [00:23:17] Talib Kweli: So I started getting like, literally I would get 15, 20 invites a day of people like, you got to join. People would take time out of their day to call me, be like, yo, you should be at Clubhouse. It's perfect for you. And because of that, I was like, there's no way I'm ever going on Clubhouse. because nah, like me talking to these things? Nah. That would go left quick.  [00:23:41] Dan Runcie: The wild thing is I do think that people can get away with saying wilder shit on audio than they can on written text on Twitter, at least from some of the stuff I've heard.  [00:23:51] Talib Kweli: Yeah. That's exactly right. That's exactly right, which is why I don't need to be on it. That's exactly right because here's the thing, here's the problem with me, right? I'm a very intersectional person, you know, I'm not out here, slut-shaming. I'm not here calling women bitches and hoes. I'm not out here using the R word or using the F word. I don't do none of that. I'm not a bigot. I don't use bigoted language. [00:24:14] Talib Kweli: But I'm very good with words. And so with the shit that I write in text, and I'm very blunt and direct. And so the shit I write in text, I feel like it triggers a lot of people in terms of, like, because I'm like, Hmm, nah. And I'm just very blunt and direct. If you come at me wrong, I can be insulting without lowering to this vibration of bigotry, right? Or, that's not true. Every man has fucking bigotry issues, but I try my best. I feel like I try more than most of the people I converse with, right? And so, that me, that shit just comes off as snark, bro, and people just be upset, 'cause they feel like you making 'em look stupid and they get very upset and very tight. And that's what it would be for me at Clubhouse. I would say some slick shit and people would get very upset very quick.  [00:25:04] Dan Runcie: No, I hear that. I hear you on that. It's been, what, almost two years since you've been off Twitter.  [00:25:09] Talib Kweli: Yeah, it's been since 2020.  [00:25:11] Dan Runcie: Okay. Do you miss it?  [00:25:12] Talib Kweli: No, I don't. It was time. I had been on Twitter for 10 years. I don't miss it at all. I enjoyed my time there though. But, you know, I don't miss it because I honestly, for real, in my heart of hearts, I really, truly, truly, truly do not want to be someplace where I'm not wanted. Like, I stand by that. Like, mm-hmm. Like, if they don't want me there, I don't have no desire to be there. [00:25:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah. You're not missing much. I'll be honest with you. As someone who spends too much time on that place, you're not missing much.  [00:25:42] Talib Kweli: Yeah. What I do realize is that being on Twitter, as much as I was on Twitter and then not on Twitter, is that the things that I was talking to people about on Twitter, and these things, let's not get it twisted, right? [00:25:53] Talib Kweli: These are things that are shifting the culture. And these are things that are shaping the world. The things I was talking about in particular, I wasn't talking about frivolous shit. I wasn't talking about rat beefs or whatever I was talking about, you know, real things. The things I was talking about on Twitter became mainstream news years later, things that I was ringing a bell on, and a lot of us were ringing a bell on and people were just not paying attention. [00:26:14] Talib Kweli: But what I realized was a lot of the things that were elevated in my mind to a level of super I importance that we have to talk about this, people who are not on Twitter, not thinking about none of that shit, not talking about none of it. And so that's why a lot of the stuff that I was going through on Twitter, a lot of stuff that became so ugly and toxic, part of it that I wasn't understanding was when I was like, yo, how is this happening? How's the community letting this happen? Because the community really didn't care, really didn't care. And I'm not saying that to disparage anybody on Twitter. I don't want to seem like now, now, cause I'm not on Twitter, like, haha, oh, y'all whack up being on Twitter. I'm not saying that because Twitter is still a very important tool. [00:26:57] Talib Kweli: That's why all the conversation about Elon Musk and all that stuff is so prevalent and so important. There are people who still use Twitter in amazing ways. Absolutely. But I agree with you. Twitter is a cesspool and it was a cesspool when I was there. It's just a lot clearer not being there and a lot more understanding for why people didn't give a shit about it, you know, now looking at the engagement. I'm glad I was there. I learned a lot. I gained a lot. It was a gift and a curse, but mostly a gift for me. But yeah, it was time for me to go and they decided that before I did, but they were correct.  [00:27:31] Dan Runcie: And I think with that, too, it's a bit of that double standard that I think public figures like yourself are kind of put towards, right? People can, you know, reply at you and talk all sorts of shit to you and take what you say out of context. But if you go back at them, then they're going to say, okay, he's putting his fan base back at me. He's doing this.  [00:27:47] Talib Kweli: Yeah, that's such an important part of this conversation, right? And I want to be clear here because like I said, I'm an intersectional person. So, you know, I don't want to be the guy that he's here to protect black women. And, well, what about men, you know what I'm saying? Because as a man, I'm a member of a privileged, oppressor group, I'll go as far to say. But there's a phrase, black men are often the white men of the black community, right? Now that phrase is funny, is hyperbolic, right, but it's based in some truth. And I understand why people would say that. When women be like all men are dogs. Yeah. I get it. I don't personally feel like I'm a dog. I've done some dog shit before, but I don't personally look at myself like that. I don't feel offended by that, but just because black men can and often are the white men of the black community, if we're going to be hyperbolic, right?  [00:28:37] Talib Kweli: Doesn't mean that we're not still part of a marginalized group of people. It doesn't mean that we're not still under attack. Doesn't mean that we're not still faced with many threats and that we don't still need protection, 'cause we absolutely do. And the conversation in our community has to be about the black community, has to be about women, and children, and men, and gay people, and disabled people, and rich people, and poor people, has to be about all of us. [00:29:07] Talib Kweli: If we're talking about the conversation around systemic oppression. And so the idea that because I've earned an extra layer of privilege, 'cause I'm already born with some privileges. I'm already born in America, born as a man, but because I've mastered my craft, worked hard to master my craft. And it's earned me a degree of fame, and a degree of celebrity, and a degree of money that a lot of people can't earn or not in a position to earn resource and all that, because of that, I'm now supposed to allow people to disrespect, not just me, but my family and particularly the women in my family? [00:29:41] Talib Kweli: And I'm not allowed to be a human being and want to respond and have a response? The things that people say about celebrity is that they're disconnecting, that they don't engage. I don't view myself as celebrity. I view myself as an artist. Well, as an artist, I'm going to talk to the people and for better or for worse, you know? What I realize now is that me talking to the people has put a target on my back because a lot of these people don't even deal with these people. They just block people, look and call 'em trolls. [00:30:10] Talib Kweli: They don't even talk to anybody. And I'm not built that way. And I understand the logic behind it, but I also, there's also a method to my madness as well. And so the idea, I push back hard against the idea that you have a pass to undervalue my humanity or to not treat me like a human being because you haven't earned what I've earned in terms of cultural currency, you know, because you choose to be anonymous, or because you are not famous, or because you are not, I don't know, whatever, like, I can't abide by that. I can't. I find myself inclined to speak out against that idea that we lack humanity, or we are less human, or we deserve to be treated less than because we're famous, or because we have a million followers, or whatever the metric is, I don't know.  [00:31:00] Dan Runcie: And I think this point brings the conversation full circle, right? Because so many people, when you and Yasiin decided to release the album on your terms, they're like, oh, well, you're not going to put it on streaming. You're missing out, that you shouldn't be doing this. And y'all are like, This is our music. You can't tell us what to do. Like, this is our craft. And I think it just goes back to the entitlement of people feeling like they have the ability to dictate what you do when you are the one that is in control of what you do.  [00:31:31] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I mean, that's, I'm glad you brought that up 'cause for me, those conversations are difficult, right? Because I'm an advocate for artists. I'm a fan. So when we talk about fans, right, we're not talking about, I'm not separate from that group. When you see me post on Instagram videos of me with Bun B, and I'm jumping up and down just like any fan would. I'm not playing it cool, you know what I'm saying? Like, so I'm a fan as well. And me as a fan, I'm a fan of these artists as human beings. That's why I wrote that article In Defense Of Ms. Hill ' cause it's like, if I'm a fan of her music, then yo sis, take your time. If you don't feel like showing up at the show tonight, Hey, I guess we got to eat that one tonight. [00:32:09] Talib Kweli: But you're still Ms. Hill, you're a human being. You're not some product that rolls out on stage. You press a button, it just goes. If you're having a human issue, you're a human being that's having a human issue. Let us know when you got some new shit and I'll be happy to support. I likely, if you give me an option, I'll overpay for it. [00:32:25] Talib Kweli: How about that? Because I can't quantify what you've given me, and that's honestly how I feel. So it's hard for me to relate to these fans, be like, I want, first of all, that's even the wrong language to be using with me, talking about what you want, you know what I'm saying? If you want the Black Star, I'm going to make the Black Star out. [00:32:41] Talib Kweli: And if you can't, then meet us halfway, bro, and come to where I'm at, because guess what? The first Black Star album, Universal says they own and they don't own it. We've never signed a contract for that album. So they've been profiting off of that. So if you bought that or listen to streaming, you've been paying some rich white company that has nothing to do with Black Star. [00:33:01] Talib Kweli: Every song in that album is available on YouTube. Most of my music is available for free on YouTube. On Kweliclub.com, you could get all my mixtapes for free. You could get the album Fuck the Money for free. My biggest song Get By, you could, if that shit came on in the store, you could Shazam it and listen to it on Shazam for free, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's got 15 million views on YouTube. You could go listen to it on YouTube for free. You mean to tell me I can't get $10 or $5 or $30 with a new Black Star album, with all this free music you getting? What are we even talking about? You know what I'm saying? Like, how are you ignoring all of this, to complain about this? [00:33:39] Dan Runcie: Right. It's like, you've had so much up to this point. It's not like you haven't had anything, you know, like, if you want to be able to put this one out on your terms, then yeah, here it is. You know, you don't owe anyone anything.  [00:33:51] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I find it hard to relate to the people who don't understand that, which is why, if you notice, when I've been on social media and people ask about it, my response has been, well, this album is not for you. [00:34:00] Talib Kweli: And maybe I should stop doing that because that's such a triggering thing to say to people. And I've been saying it a lot 'cause I mean it. But then it starts these long arguments with me. Fuck you and you're mean to the fans. It's like, nah, my fans are listening to the album. Now whether or not they like it or not, that's subjective.  [00:34:18] Talib Kweli: My fans were listening to Midnight Miracle. And if they weren't, if you are a fan, who's watching this podcast right now and you didn't know about Midnight Miracle, go listen to it because you're a fan. You want to hear what we got, you want it. If you are a fan of us, be a fan of us. [00:34:33] Talib Kweli: I don't believe to separate the artists from the music. I don't do that. I feel like that's a cop-out. Let me not say that because, let me just speak for myself. You can't do that with me because I am what my music is. All them lies they be telling about me, it doesn't go with my music. It doesn't go with my actions. [00:34:51] Talib Kweli: It doesn't go with the truth. i I am what I say in these bars. I stand on that. I'm very proud of that.  [00:34:57] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think the other piece of this, too, that I think has now just become the norm in music is that so many artists are predispositioned to be like, okay, lemme just put my music out on streaming. [00:35:07] Dan Runcie: Treat it like it's marketing, get it out there. And then let me make my money when I go on tour. But the way that you all have it set up, I mean, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. You can get the money from the art, and you could also get the money, you know, if you and Yasiin choose to do a tour together. [00:35:24] Talib Kweli: I mean, I was touring, I was touring before the pandemic. I was doing 200 shows a year. So that's more than anybody, you know, like I was, that model right there. Think about it. I got 16 albums out, doing 200 shows a year. So that's what, 'you're describing my life. That's exactly what I was doing. And I don't do that anymore, and I don't plan on doing it again. [00:35:43] Talib Kweli: But when I look at pictures or videos for myself from that time, I don't even recognize that person. Like, how was I doing that? That's not sustainable. I was on some super human shit. I don't know what, I don't know how I was doing this. I don't know how I was dropping music and touring at that pace. [00:35:57] Talib Kweli: And still, like, doing activist work, and supporting my family, and just being me, and being on Twitter, you know what I'm saying? Like, all of it, I was doing all of it and I don't know how I was doing all that.  [00:36:06] Dan Runcie: How many shows do you think you'll go back to? If 200 was a lot, what do you think is the ideal range? [00:36:13] Talib Kweli: As you're saying, as I'm saying this to you, I'm thinking about it. I'm like, damn. I got a lot of shows coming up, but I can't let it get back to 200 a year.  [00:36:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I mean, 'cause at that rate, yeah, I mean, you're talking, I mean, like more than half of the days of the year you are out there putting it all out there. I mean, yeah. [00:36:29] Talib Kweli: 20 years straight, I did that for 20 years. [00:36:31] Dan Runcie: And it's wild. It's wild. I mean, I think at least the position that you're potentially in now, you can earn more money from the actual music you're putting out. You clearly have, you know, a bit buy-in with a platform that has other people that are invested in it as well. [00:36:45] Dan Runcie: And then with any other business interest that you may have, like, this is something to build up on, right? It's clearly, like, recurring revenue that you have and if you and Luminary continue to grow, then you can also tour and do any of that other stuff on your own terms.  [00:36:59] Talib Kweli: Absolutely. Yeah.  [00:37:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel that's the way to go with it. Well, Talib, this has been a great conversation. I feel like we covered a bunch just in terms of the importance of autonomy, importance of independence, and where you see things going. But for the people that are listening and they do want to follow, I'm sure they already know if they're listening, but where should they go to check for the latest of what you got going on? [00:37:18] Talib Kweli: Man, just follow me on Instagram. If they don't kick me off Instagram, 'cause they be threatening to kick me off Instagram too. They don't like when I talk about racism on Instagram. So for as long as I'll be on Instagram, follow me there. I just joined Fanbase today. So I'm looking forward to exploring Fanbase. [00:37:32] Talib Kweli: But I mean, you got to come see me in the flesh or don't actually, you know, like just, I don't know. Like, I've been out in the flesh a a lot, man. I don't know. I don't know. Just holler at me when you see me, and I'll try to make my presence known. For the near foreseeable future, I'm definitely going to be at Luminary. So I definitely encourage people to subscribe to Luminary.  [00:37:52] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. And I appreciate the Fanbase shout out too. Shout out to Isaac Hayes III. I had him on the podcast couple of months ago. Love what he's building.  [00:37:59] Talib Kweli: Yeah, me too. I've been knowing about it for a minute, but now as I'm starting to, like, really assess what's valuable to me, I'm, like, starting to look at things a little different, and I'm like, yeah, Fanbase. We can't keep talking about it, right? At some point we got support.  [00:38:14] Dan Runcie: Right. Exactly. We know that this is the culture that pushes it forward. It's our culture. I mean, have the people that are about it to be the ones that actually own it in, we can see what happens. [00:38:22] Talib Kweli: Yeah. Word up.  [00:38:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. All right, man. Appreciate you.  [00:38:26] Talib Kweli: All right. Peace.  [00:38:27] Dan Runcie: All right, man. Thanks.  [00:38:29] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 22 Jul 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Why Talib Kweli is Focused on his Fans full Dan Runcie Twenty-four years after their debut album, Black Star — the duo of Talib Kweli and Yasiin Bey — is back with its sophomore release, “No Fear Of Time.” Talib joined Trapital to discuss the long-awaited return album (which dropped in May) and why it was released exclusively on the paid-subscription podcast platform Luminary. Spurning traditional streaming platforms like Apple Music or Spotify was about serving its true fans, Talib told me during our interview. The pair was already in business with Luminary, hosting an original podcast “The Midnight Miracle” alongside Dave Chappelle. The way Talib sees it, the group’s most dedicated fans — one’s that care about them on a personal level beyond just spitting bars — were already rocking with them on Luminary. And after a career that’s spanned four decades, Talib is more interested in engaging his core fanbase rather than reaching the masses.  Disruptive art is on-brand for Black Star. Similarly, Yasiin’s latest solo album was exclusively distributed inside a 10-week art exhibit in Brooklyn. For Talib, he’s blended different musical genres and sounds his entire career. “As an artist, it’s my duty to try everything I can,” he told me on this episode.  For a closer look at Talib’s creative and business approach, you’ll want to hear our interview in full. Here’s all our talking points during the episode: [3:16] Black Star’s New Album “No Fear Of Time” [4:10] Why The Album Released Exclusively On Luminary Podcast Network [8:07] Why Talib Moved Away From Patreon [10:37] Art Vs. Business [14:11] What Talib Has Learned In Different Creative Pursuits  [15:55] Yasiin Bey Makes Talib “Step Up” [19:23] TikTok’s Influence On Modern-Day Music [23:00] Why Talib Avoided Clubhouse  [25:12] Talib Doesn’t Miss Twitter [29:41] Speaking Out Against Online Trolls [33:51] Putting Out Music On “Own Terms” [35:24] Talib Did 200 Shows A Year For Two Decades Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Talib Kweli, @talibkweli   Sponsors: beatBread is your music platform to get funding and stay in control. You can get advances from $1,000 to $2 million, and you keep your masters. To learn more, go to beatBread.com   MoonPay is the leader in web3 infrastructure. They have partnered with Timbaland, Snoop Dogg, and many more. To learn more, visit moonpay.com/trapital   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Talib Kweli: Most of my music is available for free on YouTube. On Kweliclub.com, you can get all my mixtapes for free. You can get the album Fuck the Money for free. My biggest song Get By, you could, if that shit came on in the store, you could Shazam it and listen to it on Shazam for free, you know what I'm saying? [00:00:16] Talib Kweli: Like, it's got 15 million views on YouTube. You could go listen to it on YouTube for free. You mean to tell me I can't get $10 or $5 or $30 with a new Black Star album with all this free music you're getting? What are we even talking about? You know what I'm saying? Like, how are you ignoring all of this, to complain about this? [00:00:42] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:01:03] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is the one and only Talib Kweli. He is one half of Black Star which is back with its second album since their debut 24 years ago, 24 years. It's crazy how long it's been. But it was great to talk to him about why he chose to release it now and also why he chose to release it exclusively on Luminary. [00:01:25] Dan Runcie: Luminary is a paid audio platform, specifically known for podcasting. So we talked about that decision, why it was important for him and Yasiin to release it on a platform where they already had a podcast and what that means for him moving forward. And what it ultimately focuses on is the quest for autonomy and control and independence in being able to reap the rewards that come from it. [00:01:49] Dan Runcie: This is nothing new to Talib Kweli. He's released music on his own website, Kweli Club. He's used Patreon as well to release his music. So we talked about what the decision was like to release on Luminary and more broadly what this means for him as an artist. He's someone that has toured a lot over the years. [00:02:07] Dan Runcie: So we talked about what it's been like since the pandemic. What it's been like finding the right sound and themes given so much of the conscious rap that Black Star and Talib himself were known for over the years. And we talked about a whole bunch of other trends in the industry. Great conversation, really insightful. [00:02:24] Dan Runcie: Hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Talib Kweli. All right. So today we have the one and only Talib Kweli, one half a Black Star, which is back with its latest album, No Fear of Time. So the album's been out for a little bit, man. How are you feeling? How do you feel about the response?  [00:02:41] Talib Kweli: I feel grateful and blessed, and I'm happy that the fans have gotten a chance to hear it. I've been listening to it or iterations of it for a number of years now. And I'm just happy to have gotten it out.  [00:02:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I bet. I think too, I'm glad that the fans are hearing it 'cause one of the big discussion points about the album, which stuck out to me, was how you chose to release it. And I give you so much respect for doing it on your terms and not necessarily following the main path because we all know that artists have their own autonomy and independence. Like, you don't have to just do the standard thing. So credit to you on that.  [00:03:16] Talib Kweli: Well, yeah, you know, all praises due to the most high and really, I give the credit to Yas he was the one that really stuck to his guns on that. You know, my music is widely available or many platforms, not all of it, you know, some, some things I have exclusive, but we've had offers as you can imagine all through the years to ways to put out the Black Star album in a more traditional way. [00:03:37] Talib Kweli: Yasiin stuck to his guns on that. And by default, just me, me being in a group with him, I benefit from that. Because the situation absolutely was a beneficial situation to me and, to be frank with you, one of my most favorite situations I've been in business-wise in terms of my relationship with my art and how it gets out to people. [00:03:59] Dan Runcie: That's good. That's good to hear because I know that you've done a few different things independently. You've released albums on your own website before, you've done Patreon. What made you choose Luminary this time?  [00:04:10] Talib Kweli: Well, we were already in a very fruitful relationship with Luminary due to the fact that we had the podcast on Luminary with Dave Chappelle, the Midnight Miracle Podcast. [00:04:19] Talib Kweli: And it was attractive to us, the idea that fans who are willing to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak, fans that are already spending money with us, fans that are following us enough to know where we at, fans that are interested in our conversation, right? Fans that are interested in us as men, as human beings and not just like feed us, feed us, feed us art, feed us content, but fans that are really interested in what we think and how we see the world and how we see art.  [00:04:50] Talib Kweli: Those fans, I feel like, that niche was either already on Luminary rocking with the Midnight Miracle or if they had heard about the Midnight Miracle, that would be exciting to them. And so just automatically it weeds out the people who are like, Nah, I'm not interested in you as a human being. I'm not interested in how you feed your family. [00:05:11] Talib Kweli: I'm not interested in your, your thoughts on the state of the industry. I just like them bars and the beats. I just want to hear the music. But that's not the fan I want, you know, and that's not a fan. That's pop music. Pop music is like a blanket, trying to blanket and cover everything and get every single ear. [00:05:28] Talib Kweli: And I don't need every single ear and I don't need all eyes on me. I just want to rock with the people who want to rock with me. And that, that's the first thing beyond the fact that, you know, the business of Luminary is, that we're in is a fair arrangement. It's not, you know, it's not ownership. [00:05:45] Talib Kweli: It's just fair. It's the antithesis of what happens with most of these streaming networks, most of these DSPs. So it's, it's just a, it's a good situation. And it's not, you know, the news was, was announced that Dave Chappelle at other people had been invested in Luminary. So it's not just something where it's like, we're asking people to come to something that we personally don't put our money where our mouth is, you know what I'm saying?  [00:06:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Because that's what I saw. I saw that Dave Chappelle was an investor. I assumed that maybe you and Yasiin were as well. And 'cause I know some people, I wondered, okay, well, if I was going to do $5 a month, is that $5 that I could just put directly in Talib's pocket? [00:06:25] Dan Runcie: But you're like, Hey, we also want to support the people that have clearly been with us, paying for Midnight Miracles, paying for our content. So it's not just about the monetary aspect. It's about being able to share and celebrate with the people that have already been with you.  [00:06:39] Talib Kweli: Yeah, exactly. And I can't speak for Yasiin's investment to what he do with his money. You know, that's, that's really his business. I really don't know. But for me, I, I have Kweli Club, as you mentioned, and I'm very proud of Kweli Club, but people are not there. You know, I've never been on Bandcamp. I just started a page on Bandcamp this week for the first time because I've heard about Bandcamp. [00:07:02] Talib Kweli: But in my mind, I'm like I could do that with Kweli Club. I could have my own Bandcamp. And Kweli Club is still rocking and is a unique experience to sell books there, there's product and information and things you could get from me there that you can't get no place else. But now you can also get my music, some of it on Bandcamp and the Black Star album is on Luminary. And I think I'm going to probably do some more things with Luminary.  [00:07:23] Talib Kweli: It has all these other podcasts and it's like, whether you're into those podcasts or not, right? Like, you might not want to hear Trevor Noah, or Roxane Gay, or Russell Brand, or some of the other podcasts they have there, or the People's Party, or Midnight Miracle. But you can't say, well, we're just asking you to pay for this album. You can't say that 'cause that's not accurate. What you're paying for, you're getting a lot more than an album.  [00:07:47] Dan Runcie: I agree with that. And I think the distinction here, too, that I think about, I know you mentioned on your website, of course, you could do it there, but that's not necessarily whereas many of the fans are, as you mentioned, how does this compare to Patreon? For instance, I know you've used that in the past to release art and release your work specifically. [00:08:07] Talib Kweli: I respect the Patreon audience, and the Patreon people, and the people who started it. It's a very good idea. That is very artist-centric. But for me personally, it was Patreon just like everything else is based on your level of engagement. It's a social media platform, right? So the more you engage there, the better it's going to be. [00:08:25] Talib Kweli: And they got, what, the Discord. They're plugged in LinkedIn with, and it's just for me, we're already engaging on other social media apps to then take that time. And I engage where I enjoy, right? I don't do it just for business. Like, I'm talking about things I enjoy. And also that, because I enjoy the engagement, it's also rewarding to me. [00:08:45] Talib Kweli: It brings followers and listeners, whatever, but you just to add time to do it on Patreon, I didn't, I couldn't get into the engaging in the social media part of Patreon. And I feel like for me personally if you're not going to, I feel like if I wanted to engage to the level of some of the other creators on Patreon, I probably would've done better there, but my interest never, never quite got to there. [00:09:11] Talib Kweli: And so that's what this is, there's no disrespect to that platform. I just think it's a personal taste or what you enjoy doing. And I see, I see people who do very well on Patreon.  [00:09:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I feel like for you specifically, we are talking about being able to invest in a platform, not just with your money, but with your time as well. [00:09:32] Dan Runcie: And if you're going to get the most out of a platform, you got to put a lot into it. And you already had work in luminaries. So I feel like that connection was there for you. And this also makes me think back to when you had released your Gutter Rainbows album. This was back in 2011, and I feel like at least of what you had written at the time, this was a bit of a, a turning point for you because I think what we're talking about is the autonomy, and the independence, and the impact of that, especially from an economic perspective where you're like, you know, you put up your own money, you tripled your investment in a few months, and you're like, even at the more commercially successful albums you had before that, you never saw something like that. And I feel like that shaped a lot of your experience and outlook forward. [00:10:15] Talib Kweli: Yeah. And it's even in 2022, it's even more like that. I'm still learning, and growing, and bending, and shifting. And the space I'm in now is even a lot more independent than I was when Gutter Rainbows came out. Now it's just like the industry's completely broken down. Like, when Gutter Rainbows came out, it was like on the way to really, really breaking down. [00:10:37] Talib Kweli: But now it's completely broken down. It's like the wild, wild west. And it's like really about what you invest in yourself. It's really about focusing on the business aspect of it, like where you completely leave the ego out of it. And that's so difficult for a lot of artists because a lot of art can be, for better or for worse, ego-driven. And it can be, you know, people say that art is reciprocal. You want people to like your art, you put it out in the world, and you search around to see who's feeling it. And that could really have an adverse effect on your ego and what your value system is, right? [00:11:10] Talib Kweli: And, you know, me as an artist personally, I've spent money. I've invested in things that I knew I wasn't going to see no return on, over and over and over again, just for the sake of the art, just for the sake of the culture. And I'm not just talking about my art. I'm talking about other artists on Javotti Media, you know, there's things that I've invested in and I'm like, I don't see a path to making a profit here unless by some stroke of luck or miracle, something, someone feels as strongly about this art as I do. [00:11:39] Talib Kweli: And it gets a placement somewhere. Someone picks it up for a movie or something, like that's possible, or use it in a commercial, stuff like that. But I mean, those are long shots. That's not a guarantee. That's not like a plan for success, unless you're going into those situations where you're, you're knowing how to pitch those things and have those relationships, which I did not and do not, you know, so yeah. [00:12:02] Talib Kweli: My thinking on it now is not that at all. Because I've done that. I've done the artist thing for so, so, so, so long, and I'm not really a businessman at all. I'm a businessman by default. I'm a businessman because I have to be, I love, I love this art so much. I love this culture so much. And in order to sustain myself, in order to live the life I want to live and to feed my family, offer this art I had to learn a certain degree of money management, time management, business management in order to just do what I do, but I don't enjoy it. [00:12:32] Talib Kweli: and this is why this conversation was in, in doing this podcast was interesting to me because I think it's very important whether I enjoy it or not. [00:12:41] Dan Runcie: I think that's an important distinction, because I do think that we see artists now that clearly you could get the sense that music is an afterthought for the bag that they're trying to get. But at the end of the day, I still believe that most of the people in this want to do it primarily because they love the art and they are much more aligned with you where it's like, they had to do this because they didn't want to get, you know, taken advantage of by the system. [00:13:05] Dan Runcie: They didn't want to not have things work out in their favor. So by default, you have to have some, you know, cursory level of knowing what works and what doesn't. And as you kind of mentioned earlier, that bar has increased a lot since Gutter Rainbows, that has increased a lot since so many of these things. [00:13:22] Dan Runcie: So the landscape forces you to do that, or else you may likely get taken advantage of unless things work out luckily in your favor. [00:13:31] Dan Runcie: I think, too, for you, something else you mentioned with this, just thinking about needing to reach so many fans, if you are relying on this major system, so much of that relies on taking you away from the core people that are really rocking with you, because if you're trying to reach the masses and you're trying to do what a major label may want you to do to try to reach the masses. [00:13:53] Dan Runcie: then you may have, they may want you to either shift your sound. They may want you to try to do all these things, which further take away from the autonomy and control that you clearly want to be able to have. So I get the sense that this more recent stage of your career has likely been more freeing from that perspective. [00:14:11] Talib Kweli: Yeah, I mean, as an artist, I really, really, really want to try everything. I've definitely tried in my music to make music, to take aspects of what I do, who I am as an anti-racist person, as a pro-black person, as a person who likes a certain type of what they call underground hip-hop and take those sensibilities and stretch them, expand them and find global audiences. [00:14:34] Talib Kweli: And I've worked with artists all over the world from different genres. I've tried many different styles. I've sang. I've done double time. I've done, you know, I've round over trap beats. I've done it at all. I've tried every single thing because as an artist, not only is that my right, feel like it's my duty to try everything I can. [00:14:52] Talib Kweli: But in that trying, what I've learned is is that the more I try different things, the more I start to lean towards being comfortable in being the best at what I do, finding that thing that what it is that's unique about me and finding that. And I've tried that through my career. [00:15:09] Talib Kweli: People, there's albums of songs, things that people are, like, maybe be like, I don't like when Talib did this, or I don't like when Talib did that. And some of that, some of it worked and some of it didn't. There's some of it that I love that people hate. And some of it that people hate that I love, I don't even know if I just said the same thing twice, but you know what I'm getting at. [00:15:27] Talib Kweli: But in this state, business-wise and creative-wise, I'm closer to the vest and more about what is it that I do best. And try to put that on display.  [00:15:40] Dan Runcie: Right. And that last piece you talked about in terms of doing things you loved that the fans didn't like, or the fans not doing things you liked, but then you actually liked it yourself. Did any of that influence how you and Yasiin went about this latest album?  [00:15:55] Talib Kweli: Well, the good thing about Yasiin is that he try, he does try as much as I do. He tries different styles. Absolutely. I've heard him rap and sing on all different types of things. But what really helps shape the Black Star sound is I'm the steward of the beats and the administration. [00:16:12] Talib Kweli: Like, I'm going out and finding the beats, and looking for producers, and booking studios. I'm doing all that. But what Yasiin is doing is he's trying to get closer to God in his lyrics. You know, all his albums, all his projects start with Bismillah and all his bars and where he is trying to go lyrically is always about a higher level of self. And trying to get closer to God, whatever that is for you. And so it makes me step up, frankly, and it doesn't make me just step up, but it makes me because let's not get it fucked up. Like I don't slouch from my, on my other projects. You know what I'm saying? So it's not just about stepping up, but it's also about the focus. [00:16:54] Talib Kweli: It's just different. And it's like that when I worked with Styles P, it was a different type of focus. When I worked with 9th Wonder in them, it was a different type of focus. When I work with Hi-Tek, it was a different type of focus and, you know, even on my solo albums, even the producers I work with, whether it was DJ Scratch or Kanye, will.i.am, whoever. Like, wherever I go with that person is is pulling some out of me. And what Yasiin pulls out of me is wanting to be closer to God.  [00:17:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I definitely get the sense of that. And even listening to y'all two conversations, hearing it from the album and even just, you know, his own evolution with religion, I always got the sense that, for you two, like spirituality and the importance of that was always going to have a theme through its music. [00:17:36] Dan Runcie: And it's been interesting to see how, like, that piece from a tonality has evolved over time as well. The debut album you had, there were so many things that were timely to that era. And I think in this album, too, we're kind of seeing so much of it because I think that there's a lot of things, whether it's about, you know, black liberation, freedom that I think were relevant then, relevant now. However, it looks different in a way that I feel like you all are able to keep a lot of the same themes, but have more of a modern shift to it, which I don't think necessarily applies to a lot of people that are still creating music from the late nineties and putting it out today. [00:18:13] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I hear you. And I think that was very intentional on our part. This album was formed over a lot of conversation and, you know, it's 24 years since the last project in them, you know, there was a lot of attention to detail. A lot of attention to detail, but also with the idea that it's got to sound loose. It's got to sound organic, and raw, and loose. It can't sound overproduced.  [00:18:37] Dan Runcie: Right. And it has to be timely as well in a way that it can both stand, you know, the test of time. But it also, you know, whether you're talking about millennials and how people are relating to particular things, it has to relate to that piece. [00:18:51] Dan Runcie: And I feel like that resonated with me, at least, for being able to hear things as well. But there was something else you said even earlier in this conversation that I was thinking about in terms of doing things and you always willing to try things, whether it's going with EDM, working with different producers. I'm curious, how does that shift with looking at different formats as well to put out music? Because I know that there's this ongoing debate right now about artists and whether or not they should be forced to use TikTok or not, and whether or not people like to use TikTok. How do you feel about that? [00:19:23] Talib Kweli: Yeah, I was watching the Billboard Awards and that's when I first, I knew in the abstract that everything was moving towards TikTok, right? But watching the Billboard Awards, it hit me when they were introducing every single artist that was popular. Most of them I hadn't heard of or heard their song, but every single thing they were announcing was like, this is how it performed at TikTok. And for how I grew up, that was the radio. [00:19:43] Talib Kweli: And so I was like, now we're an era where the radio is not on his way to be obsolete, but completely obsolete. And let me be clear. I don't mean radio as a concept. I mean, commercialized pop radio and that system. Because clearly what you're doing is radio, you know, what I'm doing with People's Party and in Midnight Miracle is radio. So that's driving, right? [00:20:04] Talib Kweli: I feel like we're in almost in a golden age of radio, but as far as, like, with the music business, man, oh, man. Yeah, TikTok is, I just posted something today from, or that Earn Your Leisure poster about Isaac Hayes Jr., for Fanbase, talking about the algorithms and Instagram, and how, when it first started, you could gain 300,000 followers, very quickly, a million followers very quickly, but then once they had video and once they had ads, well, now you could be a network and now, the advertisers are going to come to you instead of coming to Instagram. So now they've made it so, that's why they shadowbanned people and limit content. I have a million people following me. If I post something, maybe 5,000 people will see it or like it, I don't know who, how many people see it. [00:20:44] Talib Kweli: I have to look at the insights, but I'm definitely not reaching everybody who I'm supposed to reach. And they'll be like, oh, well you could, if you pay us, you know what I'm saying? And so it's just interesting to see how with TikTok, which is Chinese-based if I'm not mistaken, I don't think they're doing that. I think they're allowing the content to reach who it's going to reach, or I might be mistaken about that. I don't know.  [00:21:05] Dan Runcie: I think that's going to shift with TikTok as well though, because I think we kind of saw the early stage where you could put up a song and, you know, like a Megan Thee Stallion song could blow up or whoever song could blow up. [00:21:16] Dan Runcie: But I think now they got over a billion people using it every day. I think we're going to see or using it every month rather. I think you're going to see the same type of shift happen there, too, eventually.  [00:21:27] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I mean, I post on TikTok and no one follows me on TikTok. It's like 4,000 people following me on TikTok. But again, it's the same thing with the Patreon thing. I'm not there, right? I'm not engaging with the people. I'm not clicking on videos, and scrolling through it, and, like, commenting. And I'm not doing anything. I'm just posting things, trying to get some engagement because people are there. I'm putting things up. But that's not really where my fans are looking for me yet at this point. [00:21:54] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. And especially with the demo that you're reaching, and they're not looking at you to go do some TikTok dance or something like that, right?  [00:22:01] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I saw The Game doing a TikTok dance. I mean, I hope that that's what he really wanted to do, you know what I'm saying? I hope that he's like, yo, I think that dance is hot, and I'm going to do that dance. Instead of like, damn I got to get on TikTok and do a dance, you know what I'm saying?  [00:22:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I do think even that piece of it's going to change too, though, because kind of like we saw on YouTube, right? Like people avoided YouTube for a while because they're, okay, I'm not going to go out here and go dance like Soulja Boy and try to do some viral video, but it eventually matured. And I think we're going to see the same with TikTok where, yeah, you don't have to do some dance that could fit in a vertical video, but you're going to see, you know, folks that you know, are trying to reach your demo, doing whatever the version is that's relatable to them. So it'll take time. In some ways, I feel like it's already happening. Yeah. [00:22:47] Dan Runcie: For you, I do think about even, you know, we're talking about spending time on different platforms. Did you dip into Clubhouse, especially when, you know, the hype on Clubhouse was big or?  [00:23:00] Talib Kweli: Oh no. They kicked me off at twitter for, they didn't like the way I was talking on Twitter. If they can't take what I write in text, they damn sure ain't going to be able to take my voice, you know what I'm saying? Clubhouse got popping right when I got kicked off of Twitter, and so I started getting like, you know, you got to invite people, right? [00:23:17] Talib Kweli: So I started getting like, literally I would get 15, 20 invites a day of people like, you got to join. People would take time out of their day to call me, be like, yo, you should be at Clubhouse. It's perfect for you. And because of that, I was like, there's no way I'm ever going on Clubhouse. because nah, like me talking to these things? Nah. That would go left quick.  [00:23:41] Dan Runcie: The wild thing is I do think that people can get away with saying wilder shit on audio than they can on written text on Twitter, at least from some of the stuff I've heard.  [00:23:51] Talib Kweli: Yeah. That's exactly right. That's exactly right, which is why I don't need to be on it. That's exactly right because here's the thing, here's the problem with me, right? I'm a very intersectional person, you know, I'm not out here, slut-shaming. I'm not here calling women bitches and hoes. I'm not out here using the R word or using the F word. I don't do none of that. I'm not a bigot. I don't use bigoted language. [00:24:14] Talib Kweli: But I'm very good with words. And so with the shit that I write in text, and I'm very blunt and direct. And so the shit I write in text, I feel like it triggers a lot of people in terms of, like, because I'm like, Hmm, nah. And I'm just very blunt and direct. If you come at me wrong, I can be insulting without lowering to this vibration of bigotry, right? Or, that's not true. Every man has fucking bigotry issues, but I try my best. I feel like I try more than most of the people I converse with, right? And so, that me, that shit just comes off as snark, bro, and people just be upset, 'cause they feel like you making 'em look stupid and they get very upset and very tight. And that's what it would be for me at Clubhouse. I would say some slick shit and people would get very upset very quick.  [00:25:04] Dan Runcie: No, I hear that. I hear you on that. It's been, what, almost two years since you've been off Twitter.  [00:25:09] Talib Kweli: Yeah, it's been since 2020.  [00:25:11] Dan Runcie: Okay. Do you miss it?  [00:25:12] Talib Kweli: No, I don't. It was time. I had been on Twitter for 10 years. I don't miss it at all. I enjoyed my time there though. But, you know, I don't miss it because I honestly, for real, in my heart of hearts, I really, truly, truly, truly do not want to be someplace where I'm not wanted. Like, I stand by that. Like, mm-hmm. Like, if they don't want me there, I don't have no desire to be there. [00:25:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah. You're not missing much. I'll be honest with you. As someone who spends too much time on that place, you're not missing much.  [00:25:42] Talib Kweli: Yeah. What I do realize is that being on Twitter, as much as I was on Twitter and then not on Twitter, is that the things that I was talking to people about on Twitter, and these things, let's not get it twisted, right? [00:25:53] Talib Kweli: These are things that are shifting the culture. And these are things that are shaping the world. The things I was talking about in particular, I wasn't talking about frivolous shit. I wasn't talking about rat beefs or whatever I was talking about, you know, real things. The things I was talking about on Twitter became mainstream news years later, things that I was ringing a bell on, and a lot of us were ringing a bell on and people were just not paying attention. [00:26:14] Talib Kweli: But what I realized was a lot of the things that were elevated in my mind to a level of super I importance that we have to talk about this, people who are not on Twitter, not thinking about none of that shit, not talking about none of it. And so that's why a lot of the stuff that I was going through on Twitter, a lot of stuff that became so ugly and toxic, part of it that I wasn't understanding was when I was like, yo, how is this happening? How's the community letting this happen? Because the community really didn't care, really didn't care. And I'm not saying that to disparage anybody on Twitter. I don't want to seem like now, now, cause I'm not on Twitter, like, haha, oh, y'all whack up being on Twitter. I'm not saying that because Twitter is still a very important tool. [00:26:57] Talib Kweli: That's why all the conversation about Elon Musk and all that stuff is so prevalent and so important. There are people who still use Twitter in amazing ways. Absolutely. But I agree with you. Twitter is a cesspool and it was a cesspool when I was there. It's just a lot clearer not being there and a lot more understanding for why people didn't give a shit about it, you know, now looking at the engagement. I'm glad I was there. I learned a lot. I gained a lot. It was a gift and a curse, but mostly a gift for me. But yeah, it was time for me to go and they decided that before I did, but they were correct.  [00:27:31] Dan Runcie: And I think with that, too, it's a bit of that double standard that I think public figures like yourself are kind of put towards, right? People can, you know, reply at you and talk all sorts of shit to you and take what you say out of context. But if you go back at them, then they're going to say, okay, he's putting his fan base back at me. He's doing this.  [00:27:47] Talib Kweli: Yeah, that's such an important part of this conversation, right? And I want to be clear here because like I said, I'm an intersectional person. So, you know, I don't want to be the guy that he's here to protect black women. And, well, what about men, you know what I'm saying? Because as a man, I'm a member of a privileged, oppressor group, I'll go as far to say. But there's a phrase, black men are often the white men of the black community, right? Now that phrase is funny, is hyperbolic, right, but it's based in some truth. And I understand why people would say that. When women be like all men are dogs. Yeah. I get it. I don't personally feel like I'm a dog. I've done some dog shit before, but I don't personally look at myself like that. I don't feel offended by that, but just because black men can and often are the white men of the black community, if we're going to be hyperbolic, right?  [00:28:37] Talib Kweli: Doesn't mean that we're not still part of a marginalized group of people. It doesn't mean that we're not still under attack. Doesn't mean that we're not still faced with many threats and that we don't still need protection, 'cause we absolutely do. And the conversation in our community has to be about the black community, has to be about women, and children, and men, and gay people, and disabled people, and rich people, and poor people, has to be about all of us. [00:29:07] Talib Kweli: If we're talking about the conversation around systemic oppression. And so the idea that because I've earned an extra layer of privilege, 'cause I'm already born with some privileges. I'm already born in America, born as a man, but because I've mastered my craft, worked hard to master my craft. And it's earned me a degree of fame, and a degree of celebrity, and a degree of money that a lot of people can't earn or not in a position to earn resource and all that, because of that, I'm now supposed to allow people to disrespect, not just me, but my family and particularly the women in my family? [00:29:41] Talib Kweli: And I'm not allowed to be a human being and want to respond and have a response? The things that people say about celebrity is that they're disconnecting, that they don't engage. I don't view myself as celebrity. I view myself as an artist. Well, as an artist, I'm going to talk to the people and for better or for worse, you know? What I realize now is that me talking to the people has put a target on my back because a lot of these people don't even deal with these people. They just block people, look and call 'em trolls. [00:30:10] Talib Kweli: They don't even talk to anybody. And I'm not built that way. And I understand the logic behind it, but I also, there's also a method to my madness as well. And so the idea, I push back hard against the idea that you have a pass to undervalue my humanity or to not treat me like a human being because you haven't earned what I've earned in terms of cultural currency, you know, because you choose to be anonymous, or because you are not famous, or because you are not, I don't know, whatever, like, I can't abide by that. I can't. I find myself inclined to speak out against that idea that we lack humanity, or we are less human, or we deserve to be treated less than because we're famous, or because we have a million followers, or whatever the metric is, I don't know.  [00:31:00] Dan Runcie: And I think this point brings the conversation full circle, right? Because so many people, when you and Yasiin decided to release the album on your terms, they're like, oh, well, you're not going to put it on streaming. You're missing out, that you shouldn't be doing this. And y'all are like, This is our music. You can't tell us what to do. Like, this is our craft. And I think it just goes back to the entitlement of people feeling like they have the ability to dictate what you do when you are the one that is in control of what you do.  [00:31:31] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I mean, that's, I'm glad you brought that up 'cause for me, those conversations are difficult, right? Because I'm an advocate for artists. I'm a fan. So when we talk about fans, right, we're not talking about, I'm not separate from that group. When you see me post on Instagram videos of me with Bun B, and I'm jumping up and down just like any fan would. I'm not playing it cool, you know what I'm saying? Like, so I'm a fan as well. And me as a fan, I'm a fan of these artists as human beings. That's why I wrote that article In Defense Of Ms. Hill ' cause it's like, if I'm a fan of her music, then yo sis, take your time. If you don't feel like showing up at the show tonight, Hey, I guess we got to eat that one tonight. [00:32:09] Talib Kweli: But you're still Ms. Hill, you're a human being. You're not some product that rolls out on stage. You press a button, it just goes. If you're having a human issue, you're a human being that's having a human issue. Let us know when you got some new shit and I'll be happy to support. I likely, if you give me an option, I'll overpay for it. [00:32:25] Talib Kweli: How about that? Because I can't quantify what you've given me, and that's honestly how I feel. So it's hard for me to relate to these fans, be like, I want, first of all, that's even the wrong language to be using with me, talking about what you want, you know what I'm saying? If you want the Black Star, I'm going to make the Black Star out. [00:32:41] Talib Kweli: And if you can't, then meet us halfway, bro, and come to where I'm at, because guess what? The first Black Star album, Universal says they own and they don't own it. We've never signed a contract for that album. So they've been profiting off of that. So if you bought that or listen to streaming, you've been paying some rich white company that has nothing to do with Black Star. [00:33:01] Talib Kweli: Every song in that album is available on YouTube. Most of my music is available for free on YouTube. On Kweliclub.com, you could get all my mixtapes for free. You could get the album Fuck the Money for free. My biggest song Get By, you could, if that shit came on in the store, you could Shazam it and listen to it on Shazam for free, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's got 15 million views on YouTube. You could go listen to it on YouTube for free. You mean to tell me I can't get $10 or $5 or $30 with a new Black Star album, with all this free music you getting? What are we even talking about? You know what I'm saying? Like, how are you ignoring all of this, to complain about this? [00:33:39] Dan Runcie: Right. It's like, you've had so much up to this point. It's not like you haven't had anything, you know, like, if you want to be able to put this one out on your terms, then yeah, here it is. You know, you don't owe anyone anything.  [00:33:51] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I find it hard to relate to the people who don't understand that, which is why, if you notice, when I've been on social media and people ask about it, my response has been, well, this album is not for you. [00:34:00] Talib Kweli: And maybe I should stop doing that because that's such a triggering thing to say to people. And I've been saying it a lot 'cause I mean it. But then it starts these long arguments with me. Fuck you and you're mean to the fans. It's like, nah, my fans are listening to the album. Now whether or not they like it or not, that's subjective.  [00:34:18] Talib Kweli: My fans were listening to Midnight Miracle. And if they weren't, if you are a fan, who's watching this podcast right now and you didn't know about Midnight Miracle, go listen to it because you're a fan. You want to hear what we got, you want it. If you are a fan of us, be a fan of us. [00:34:33] Talib Kweli: I don't believe to separate the artists from the music. I don't do that. I feel like that's a cop-out. Let me not say that because, let me just speak for myself. You can't do that with me because I am what my music is. All them lies they be telling about me, it doesn't go with my music. It doesn't go with my actions. [00:34:51] Talib Kweli: It doesn't go with the truth. i I am what I say in these bars. I stand on that. I'm very proud of that.  [00:34:57] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think the other piece of this, too, that I think has now just become the norm in music is that so many artists are predispositioned to be like, okay, lemme just put my music out on streaming. [00:35:07] Dan Runcie: Treat it like it's marketing, get it out there. And then let me make my money when I go on tour. But the way that you all have it set up, I mean, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. You can get the money from the art, and you could also get the money, you know, if you and Yasiin choose to do a tour together. [00:35:24] Talib Kweli: I mean, I was touring, I was touring before the pandemic. I was doing 200 shows a year. So that's more than anybody, you know, like I was, that model right there. Think about it. I got 16 albums out, doing 200 shows a year. So that's what, 'you're describing my life. That's exactly what I was doing. And I don't do that anymore, and I don't plan on doing it again. [00:35:43] Talib Kweli: But when I look at pictures or videos for myself from that time, I don't even recognize that person. Like, how was I doing that? That's not sustainable. I was on some super human shit. I don't know what, I don't know how I was doing this. I don't know how I was dropping music and touring at that pace. [00:35:57] Talib Kweli: And still, like, doing activist work, and supporting my family, and just being me, and being on Twitter, you know what I'm saying? Like, all of it, I was doing all of it and I don't know how I was doing all that.  [00:36:06] Dan Runcie: How many shows do you think you'll go back to? If 200 was a lot, what do you think is the ideal range? [00:36:13] Talib Kweli: As you're saying, as I'm saying this to you, I'm thinking about it. I'm like, damn. I got a lot of shows coming up, but I can't let it get back to 200 a year.  [00:36:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I mean, 'cause at that rate, yeah, I mean, you're talking, I mean, like more than half of the days of the year you are out there putting it all out there. I mean, yeah. [00:36:29] Talib Kweli: 20 years straight, I did that for 20 years. [00:36:31] Dan Runcie: And it's wild. It's wild. I mean, I think at least the position that you're potentially in now, you can earn more money from the actual music you're putting out. You clearly have, you know, a bit buy-in with a platform that has other people that are invested in it as well. [00:36:45] Dan Runcie: And then with any other business interest that you may have, like, this is something to build up on, right? It's clearly, like, recurring revenue that you have and if you and Luminary continue to grow, then you can also tour and do any of that other stuff on your own terms.  [00:36:59] Talib Kweli: Absolutely. Yeah.  [00:37:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel that's the way to go with it. Well, Talib, this has been a great conversation. I feel like we covered a bunch just in terms of the importance of autonomy, importance of independence, and where you see things going. But for the people that are listening and they do want to follow, I'm sure they already know if they're listening, but where should they go to check for the latest of what you got going on? [00:37:18] Talib Kweli: Man, just follow me on Instagram. If they don't kick me off Instagram, 'cause they be threatening to kick me off Instagram too. They don't like when I talk about racism on Instagram. So for as long as I'll be on Instagram, follow me there. I just joined Fanbase today. So I'm looking forward to exploring Fanbase. [00:37:32] Talib Kweli: But I mean, you got to come see me in the flesh or don't actually, you know, like just, I don't know. Like, I've been out in the flesh a a lot, man. I don't know. I don't know. Just holler at me when you see me, and I'll try to make my presence known. For the near foreseeable future, I'm definitely going to be at Luminary. So I definitely encourage people to subscribe to Luminary.  [00:37:52] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. And I appreciate the Fanbase shout out too. Shout out to Isaac Hayes III. I had him on the podcast couple of months ago. Love what he's building.  [00:37:59] Talib Kweli: Yeah, me too. I've been knowing about it for a minute, but now as I'm starting to, like, really assess what's valuable to me, I'm, like, starting to look at things a little different, and I'm like, yeah, Fanbase. We can't keep talking about it, right? At some point we got support.  [00:38:14] Dan Runcie: Right. Exactly. We know that this is the culture that pushes it forward. It's our culture. I mean, have the people that are about it to be the ones that actually own it in, we can see what happens. [00:38:22] Talib Kweli: Yeah. Word up.  [00:38:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. All right, man. Appreciate you.  [00:38:26] Talib Kweli: All right. Peace.  [00:38:27] Dan Runcie: All right, man. Thanks.  [00:38:29] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Twenty-four years after their debut album, Black Star — the duo of Talib Kweli and Yasiin Bey — is back with its sophomore release, “No Fear Of Time.” Talib joined Trapital to discuss the long-awaited return album (which dropped in May) and why it was released exclusively on the paid-subscription podcast platform Luminary. Spurning traditional streaming platforms like Apple Music or Spotify was about serving its true fans, Talib told me during our interview.


The pair was already in business with Luminary, hosting an original podcast “The Midnight Miracle” alongside Dave Chappelle. The way Talib sees it, the group’s most dedicated fans — one’s that care about them on a personal level beyond just spitting bars — were already rocking with them on Luminary. And after a career that’s spanned four decades, Talib is more interested in engaging his core fanbase rather than reaching the masses. 


Disruptive art is on-brand for Black Star. Similarly, Yasiin’s latest solo album was exclusively distributed inside a 10-week art exhibit in Brooklyn. For Talib, he’s blended different musical genres and sounds his entire career. “As an artist, it’s my duty to try everything I can,” he told me on this episode. 


For a closer look at Talib’s creative and business approach, you’ll want to hear our interview in full. Here’s all our talking points during the episode:


[3:16] Black Star’s New Album “No Fear Of Time”

[4:10] Why The Album Released Exclusively On Luminary Podcast Network

[8:07] Why Talib Moved Away From Patreon

[10:37] Art Vs. Business

[14:11] What Talib Has Learned In Different Creative Pursuits 

[15:55] Yasiin Bey Makes Talib “Step Up”

[19:23] TikTok’s Influence On Modern-Day Music

[23:00] Why Talib Avoided Clubhouse 

[25:12] Talib Doesn’t Miss Twitter

[29:41] Speaking Out Against Online Trolls

[33:51] Putting Out Music On “Own Terms”

[35:24] Talib Did 200 Shows A Year For Two Decades



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Talib Kweli, @talibkweli

 

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TRANSCRIPTION


[00:00:00] Talib Kweli: Most of my music is available for free on YouTube. On Kweliclub.com, you can get all my mixtapes for free. You can get the album Fuck the Money for free. My biggest song Get By, you could, if that shit came on in the store, you could Shazam it and listen to it on Shazam for free, you know what I'm saying?

[00:00:16] Talib Kweli: Like, it's got 15 million views on YouTube. You could go listen to it on YouTube for free. You mean to tell me I can't get $10 or $5 or $30 with a new Black Star album with all this free music you're getting? What are we even talking about? You know what I'm saying? Like, how are you ignoring all of this, to complain about this?

[00:00:42] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 

[00:01:03] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is the one and only Talib Kweli. He is one half of Black Star which is back with its second album since their debut 24 years ago, 24 years. It's crazy how long it's been. But it was great to talk to him about why he chose to release it now and also why he chose to release it exclusively on Luminary.

[00:01:25] Dan Runcie: Luminary is a paid audio platform, specifically known for podcasting. So we talked about that decision, why it was important for him and Yasiin to release it on a platform where they already had a podcast and what that means for him moving forward. And what it ultimately focuses on is the quest for autonomy and control and independence in being able to reap the rewards that come from it.

[00:01:49] Dan Runcie: This is nothing new to Talib Kweli. He's released music on his own website, Kweli Club. He's used Patreon as well to release his music. So we talked about what the decision was like to release on Luminary and more broadly what this means for him as an artist. He's someone that has toured a lot over the years.

[00:02:07] Dan Runcie: So we talked about what it's been like since the pandemic. What it's been like finding the right sound and themes given so much of the conscious rap that Black Star and Talib himself were known for over the years. And we talked about a whole bunch of other trends in the industry. Great conversation, really insightful.

[00:02:24] Dan Runcie: Hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Here's my chat with Talib Kweli. All right. So today we have the one and only Talib Kweli, one half a Black Star, which is back with its latest album, No Fear of Time. So the album's been out for a little bit, man. How are you feeling? How do you feel about the response? 

[00:02:41] Talib Kweli: I feel grateful and blessed, and I'm happy that the fans have gotten a chance to hear it. I've been listening to it or iterations of it for a number of years now. And I'm just happy to have gotten it out. 

[00:02:53] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I bet. I think too, I'm glad that the fans are hearing it 'cause one of the big discussion points about the album, which stuck out to me, was how you chose to release it. And I give you so much respect for doing it on your terms and not necessarily following the main path because we all know that artists have their own autonomy and independence. Like, you don't have to just do the standard thing. So credit to you on that. 

[00:03:16] Talib Kweli: Well, yeah, you know, all praises due to the most high and really, I give the credit to Yas he was the one that really stuck to his guns on that. You know, my music is widely available or many platforms, not all of it, you know, some, some things I have exclusive, but we've had offers as you can imagine all through the years to ways to put out the Black Star album in a more traditional way.

[00:03:37] Talib Kweli: Yasiin stuck to his guns on that. And by default, just me, me being in a group with him, I benefit from that. Because the situation absolutely was a beneficial situation to me and, to be frank with you, one of my most favorite situations I've been in business-wise in terms of my relationship with my art and how it gets out to people.

[00:03:59] Dan Runcie: That's good. That's good to hear because I know that you've done a few different things independently. You've released albums on your own website before, you've done Patreon. What made you choose Luminary this time? 

[00:04:10] Talib Kweli: Well, we were already in a very fruitful relationship with Luminary due to the fact that we had the podcast on Luminary with Dave Chappelle, the Midnight Miracle Podcast.

[00:04:19] Talib Kweli: And it was attractive to us, the idea that fans who are willing to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak, fans that are already spending money with us, fans that are following us enough to know where we at, fans that are interested in our conversation, right? Fans that are interested in us as men, as human beings and not just like feed us, feed us, feed us art, feed us content, but fans that are really interested in what we think and how we see the world and how we see art. 

[00:04:50] Talib Kweli: Those fans, I feel like, that niche was either already on Luminary rocking with the Midnight Miracle or if they had heard about the Midnight Miracle, that would be exciting to them. And so just automatically it weeds out the people who are like, Nah, I'm not interested in you as a human being. I'm not interested in how you feed your family.

[00:05:11] Talib Kweli: I'm not interested in your, your thoughts on the state of the industry. I just like them bars and the beats. I just want to hear the music. But that's not the fan I want, you know, and that's not a fan. That's pop music. Pop music is like a blanket, trying to blanket and cover everything and get every single ear.

[00:05:28] Talib Kweli: And I don't need every single ear and I don't need all eyes on me. I just want to rock with the people who want to rock with me. And that, that's the first thing beyond the fact that, you know, the business of Luminary is, that we're in is a fair arrangement. It's not, you know, it's not ownership.

[00:05:45] Talib Kweli: It's just fair. It's the antithesis of what happens with most of these streaming networks, most of these DSPs. So it's, it's just a, it's a good situation. And it's not, you know, the news was, was announced that Dave Chappelle at other people had been invested in Luminary. So it's not just something where it's like, we're asking people to come to something that we personally don't put our money where our mouth is, you know what I'm saying? 

[00:06:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Because that's what I saw. I saw that Dave Chappelle was an investor. I assumed that maybe you and Yasiin were as well. And 'cause I know some people, I wondered, okay, well, if I was going to do $5 a month, is that $5 that I could just put directly in Talib's pocket?

[00:06:25] Dan Runcie: But you're like, Hey, we also want to support the people that have clearly been with us, paying for Midnight Miracles, paying for our content. So it's not just about the monetary aspect. It's about being able to share and celebrate with the people that have already been with you. 

[00:06:39] Talib Kweli: Yeah, exactly. And I can't speak for Yasiin's investment to what he do with his money. You know, that's, that's really his business. I really don't know. But for me, I, I have Kweli Club, as you mentioned, and I'm very proud of Kweli Club, but people are not there. You know, I've never been on Bandcamp. I just started a page on Bandcamp this week for the first time because I've heard about Bandcamp.

[00:07:02] Talib Kweli: But in my mind, I'm like I could do that with Kweli Club. I could have my own Bandcamp. And Kweli Club is still rocking and is a unique experience to sell books there, there's product and information and things you could get from me there that you can't get no place else. But now you can also get my music, some of it on Bandcamp and the Black Star album is on Luminary. And I think I'm going to probably do some more things with Luminary. 

[00:07:23] Talib Kweli: It has all these other podcasts and it's like, whether you're into those podcasts or not, right? Like, you might not want to hear Trevor Noah, or Roxane Gay, or Russell Brand, or some of the other podcasts they have there, or the People's Party, or Midnight Miracle. But you can't say, well, we're just asking you to pay for this album. You can't say that 'cause that's not accurate. What you're paying for, you're getting a lot more than an album. 

[00:07:47] Dan Runcie: I agree with that. And I think the distinction here, too, that I think about, I know you mentioned on your website, of course, you could do it there, but that's not necessarily whereas many of the fans are, as you mentioned, how does this compare to Patreon? For instance, I know you've used that in the past to release art and release your work specifically.

[00:08:07] Talib Kweli: I respect the Patreon audience, and the Patreon people, and the people who started it. It's a very good idea. That is very artist-centric. But for me personally, it was Patreon just like everything else is based on your level of engagement. It's a social media platform, right? So the more you engage there, the better it's going to be.

[00:08:25] Talib Kweli: And they got, what, the Discord. They're plugged in LinkedIn with, and it's just for me, we're already engaging on other social media apps to then take that time. And I engage where I enjoy, right? I don't do it just for business. Like, I'm talking about things I enjoy. And also that, because I enjoy the engagement, it's also rewarding to me.

[00:08:45] Talib Kweli: It brings followers and listeners, whatever, but you just to add time to do it on Patreon, I didn't, I couldn't get into the engaging in the social media part of Patreon. And I feel like for me personally if you're not going to, I feel like if I wanted to engage to the level of some of the other creators on Patreon, I probably would've done better there, but my interest never, never quite got to there.

[00:09:11] Talib Kweli: And so that's what this is, there's no disrespect to that platform. I just think it's a personal taste or what you enjoy doing. And I see, I see people who do very well on Patreon. 

[00:09:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I feel like for you specifically, we are talking about being able to invest in a platform, not just with your money, but with your time as well.

[00:09:32] Dan Runcie: And if you're going to get the most out of a platform, you got to put a lot into it. And you already had work in luminaries. So I feel like that connection was there for you. And this also makes me think back to when you had released your Gutter Rainbows album. This was back in 2011, and I feel like at least of what you had written at the time, this was a bit of a, a turning point for you because I think what we're talking about is the autonomy, and the independence, and the impact of that, especially from an economic perspective where you're like, you know, you put up your own money, you tripled your investment in a few months, and you're like, even at the more commercially successful albums you had before that, you never saw something like that. And I feel like that shaped a lot of your experience and outlook forward.

[00:10:15] Talib Kweli: Yeah. And it's even in 2022, it's even more like that. I'm still learning, and growing, and bending, and shifting. And the space I'm in now is even a lot more independent than I was when Gutter Rainbows came out. Now it's just like the industry's completely broken down. Like, when Gutter Rainbows came out, it was like on the way to really, really breaking down.

[00:10:37] Talib Kweli: But now it's completely broken down. It's like the wild, wild west. And it's like really about what you invest in yourself. It's really about focusing on the business aspect of it, like where you completely leave the ego out of it. And that's so difficult for a lot of artists because a lot of art can be, for better or for worse, ego-driven. And it can be, you know, people say that art is reciprocal. You want people to like your art, you put it out in the world, and you search around to see who's feeling it. And that could really have an adverse effect on your ego and what your value system is, right?

[00:11:10] Talib Kweli: And, you know, me as an artist personally, I've spent money. I've invested in things that I knew I wasn't going to see no return on, over and over and over again, just for the sake of the art, just for the sake of the culture. And I'm not just talking about my art. I'm talking about other artists on Javotti Media, you know, there's things that I've invested in and I'm like, I don't see a path to making a profit here unless by some stroke of luck or miracle, something, someone feels as strongly about this art as I do.

[00:11:39] Talib Kweli: And it gets a placement somewhere. Someone picks it up for a movie or something, like that's possible, or use it in a commercial, stuff like that. But I mean, those are long shots. That's not a guarantee. That's not like a plan for success, unless you're going into those situations where you're, you're knowing how to pitch those things and have those relationships, which I did not and do not, you know, so yeah.

[00:12:02] Talib Kweli: My thinking on it now is not that at all. Because I've done that. I've done the artist thing for so, so, so, so long, and I'm not really a businessman at all. I'm a businessman by default. I'm a businessman because I have to be, I love, I love this art so much. I love this culture so much. And in order to sustain myself, in order to live the life I want to live and to feed my family, offer this art I had to learn a certain degree of money management, time management, business management in order to just do what I do, but I don't enjoy it.

[00:12:32] Talib Kweli: and this is why this conversation was in, in doing this podcast was interesting to me because I think it's very important whether I enjoy it or not.

[00:12:41] Dan Runcie: I think that's an important distinction, because I do think that we see artists now that clearly you could get the sense that music is an afterthought for the bag that they're trying to get. But at the end of the day, I still believe that most of the people in this want to do it primarily because they love the art and they are much more aligned with you where it's like, they had to do this because they didn't want to get, you know, taken advantage of by the system.

[00:13:05] Dan Runcie: They didn't want to not have things work out in their favor. So by default, you have to have some, you know, cursory level of knowing what works and what doesn't. And as you kind of mentioned earlier, that bar has increased a lot since Gutter Rainbows, that has increased a lot since so many of these things.

[00:13:22] Dan Runcie: So the landscape forces you to do that, or else you may likely get taken advantage of unless things work out luckily in your favor.

[00:13:31] Dan Runcie: I think, too, for you, something else you mentioned with this, just thinking about needing to reach so many fans, if you are relying on this major system, so much of that relies on taking you away from the core people that are really rocking with you, because if you're trying to reach the masses and you're trying to do what a major label may want you to do to try to reach the masses.

[00:13:53] Dan Runcie: then you may have, they may want you to either shift your sound. They may want you to try to do all these things, which further take away from the autonomy and control that you clearly want to be able to have. So I get the sense that this more recent stage of your career has likely been more freeing from that perspective.

[00:14:11] Talib Kweli: Yeah, I mean, as an artist, I really, really, really want to try everything. I've definitely tried in my music to make music, to take aspects of what I do, who I am as an anti-racist person, as a pro-black person, as a person who likes a certain type of what they call underground hip-hop and take those sensibilities and stretch them, expand them and find global audiences.

[00:14:34] Talib Kweli: And I've worked with artists all over the world from different genres. I've tried many different styles. I've sang. I've done double time. I've done, you know, I've round over trap beats. I've done it at all. I've tried every single thing because as an artist, not only is that my right, feel like it's my duty to try everything I can.

[00:14:52] Talib Kweli: But in that trying, what I've learned is is that the more I try different things, the more I start to lean towards being comfortable in being the best at what I do, finding that thing that what it is that's unique about me and finding that. And I've tried that through my career.

[00:15:09] Talib Kweli: People, there's albums of songs, things that people are, like, maybe be like, I don't like when Talib did this, or I don't like when Talib did that. And some of that, some of it worked and some of it didn't. There's some of it that I love that people hate. And some of it that people hate that I love, I don't even know if I just said the same thing twice, but you know what I'm getting at.

[00:15:27] Talib Kweli: But in this state, business-wise and creative-wise, I'm closer to the vest and more about what is it that I do best. And try to put that on display. 

[00:15:40] Dan Runcie: Right. And that last piece you talked about in terms of doing things you loved that the fans didn't like, or the fans not doing things you liked, but then you actually liked it yourself. Did any of that influence how you and Yasiin went about this latest album? 

[00:15:55] Talib Kweli: Well, the good thing about Yasiin is that he try, he does try as much as I do. He tries different styles. Absolutely. I've heard him rap and sing on all different types of things. But what really helps shape the Black Star sound is I'm the steward of the beats and the administration.

[00:16:12] Talib Kweli: Like, I'm going out and finding the beats, and looking for producers, and booking studios. I'm doing all that. But what Yasiin is doing is he's trying to get closer to God in his lyrics. You know, all his albums, all his projects start with Bismillah and all his bars and where he is trying to go lyrically is always about a higher level of self. And trying to get closer to God, whatever that is for you. And so it makes me step up, frankly, and it doesn't make me just step up, but it makes me because let's not get it fucked up. Like I don't slouch from my, on my other projects. You know what I'm saying? So it's not just about stepping up, but it's also about the focus.

[00:16:54] Talib Kweli: It's just different. And it's like that when I worked with Styles P, it was a different type of focus. When I worked with 9th Wonder in them, it was a different type of focus. When I work with Hi-Tek, it was a different type of focus and, you know, even on my solo albums, even the producers I work with, whether it was DJ Scratch or Kanye, will.i.am, whoever. Like, wherever I go with that person is is pulling some out of me. And what Yasiin pulls out of me is wanting to be closer to God. 

[00:17:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I definitely get the sense of that. And even listening to y'all two conversations, hearing it from the album and even just, you know, his own evolution with religion, I always got the sense that, for you two, like spirituality and the importance of that was always going to have a theme through its music.

[00:17:36] Dan Runcie: And it's been interesting to see how, like, that piece from a tonality has evolved over time as well. The debut album you had, there were so many things that were timely to that era. And I think in this album, too, we're kind of seeing so much of it because I think that there's a lot of things, whether it's about, you know, black liberation, freedom that I think were relevant then, relevant now. However, it looks different in a way that I feel like you all are able to keep a lot of the same themes, but have more of a modern shift to it, which I don't think necessarily applies to a lot of people that are still creating music from the late nineties and putting it out today.

[00:18:13] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I hear you. And I think that was very intentional on our part. This album was formed over a lot of conversation and, you know, it's 24 years since the last project in them, you know, there was a lot of attention to detail. A lot of attention to detail, but also with the idea that it's got to sound loose. It's got to sound organic, and raw, and loose. It can't sound overproduced. 

[00:18:37] Dan Runcie: Right. And it has to be timely as well in a way that it can both stand, you know, the test of time. But it also, you know, whether you're talking about millennials and how people are relating to particular things, it has to relate to that piece.

[00:18:51] Dan Runcie: And I feel like that resonated with me, at least, for being able to hear things as well. But there was something else you said even earlier in this conversation that I was thinking about in terms of doing things and you always willing to try things, whether it's going with EDM, working with different producers. I'm curious, how does that shift with looking at different formats as well to put out music? Because I know that there's this ongoing debate right now about artists and whether or not they should be forced to use TikTok or not, and whether or not people like to use TikTok. How do you feel about that?

[00:19:23] Talib Kweli: Yeah, I was watching the Billboard Awards and that's when I first, I knew in the abstract that everything was moving towards TikTok, right? But watching the Billboard Awards, it hit me when they were introducing every single artist that was popular. Most of them I hadn't heard of or heard their song, but every single thing they were announcing was like, this is how it performed at TikTok. And for how I grew up, that was the radio.

[00:19:43] Talib Kweli: And so I was like, now we're an era where the radio is not on his way to be obsolete, but completely obsolete. And let me be clear. I don't mean radio as a concept. I mean, commercialized pop radio and that system. Because clearly what you're doing is radio, you know, what I'm doing with People's Party and in Midnight Miracle is radio. So that's driving, right?

[00:20:04] Talib Kweli: I feel like we're in almost in a golden age of radio, but as far as, like, with the music business, man, oh, man. Yeah, TikTok is, I just posted something today from, or that Earn Your Leisure poster about Isaac Hayes Jr., for Fanbase, talking about the algorithms and Instagram, and how, when it first started, you could gain 300,000 followers, very quickly, a million followers very quickly, but then once they had video and once they had ads, well, now you could be a network and now, the advertisers are going to come to you instead of coming to Instagram. So now they've made it so, that's why they shadowbanned people and limit content. I have a million people following me. If I post something, maybe 5,000 people will see it or like it, I don't know who, how many people see it.

[00:20:44] Talib Kweli: I have to look at the insights, but I'm definitely not reaching everybody who I'm supposed to reach. And they'll be like, oh, well you could, if you pay us, you know what I'm saying? And so it's just interesting to see how with TikTok, which is Chinese-based if I'm not mistaken, I don't think they're doing that. I think they're allowing the content to reach who it's going to reach, or I might be mistaken about that. I don't know. 

[00:21:05] Dan Runcie: I think that's going to shift with TikTok as well though, because I think we kind of saw the early stage where you could put up a song and, you know, like a Megan Thee Stallion song could blow up or whoever song could blow up.

[00:21:16] Dan Runcie: But I think now they got over a billion people using it every day. I think we're going to see or using it every month rather. I think you're going to see the same type of shift happen there, too, eventually. 

[00:21:27] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I mean, I post on TikTok and no one follows me on TikTok. It's like 4,000 people following me on TikTok. But again, it's the same thing with the Patreon thing. I'm not there, right? I'm not engaging with the people. I'm not clicking on videos, and scrolling through it, and, like, commenting. And I'm not doing anything. I'm just posting things, trying to get some engagement because people are there. I'm putting things up. But that's not really where my fans are looking for me yet at this point.

[00:21:54] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. And especially with the demo that you're reaching, and they're not looking at you to go do some TikTok dance or something like that, right? 

[00:22:01] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I saw The Game doing a TikTok dance. I mean, I hope that that's what he really wanted to do, you know what I'm saying? I hope that he's like, yo, I think that dance is hot, and I'm going to do that dance. Instead of like, damn I got to get on TikTok and do a dance, you know what I'm saying? 

[00:22:15] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I do think even that piece of it's going to change too, though, because kind of like we saw on YouTube, right? Like people avoided YouTube for a while because they're, okay, I'm not going to go out here and go dance like Soulja Boy and try to do some viral video, but it eventually matured. And I think we're going to see the same with TikTok where, yeah, you don't have to do some dance that could fit in a vertical video, but you're going to see, you know, folks that you know, are trying to reach your demo, doing whatever the version is that's relatable to them. So it'll take time. In some ways, I feel like it's already happening. Yeah.

[00:22:47] Dan Runcie: For you, I do think about even, you know, we're talking about spending time on different platforms. Did you dip into Clubhouse, especially when, you know, the hype on Clubhouse was big or? 

[00:23:00] Talib Kweli: Oh no. They kicked me off at twitter for, they didn't like the way I was talking on Twitter. If they can't take what I write in text, they damn sure ain't going to be able to take my voice, you know what I'm saying? Clubhouse got popping right when I got kicked off of Twitter, and so I started getting like, you know, you got to invite people, right?

[00:23:17] Talib Kweli: So I started getting like, literally I would get 15, 20 invites a day of people like, you got to join. People would take time out of their day to call me, be like, yo, you should be at Clubhouse. It's perfect for you. And because of that, I was like, there's no way I'm ever going on Clubhouse. because nah, like me talking to these things? Nah. That would go left quick. 

[00:23:41] Dan Runcie: The wild thing is I do think that people can get away with saying wilder shit on audio than they can on written text on Twitter, at least from some of the stuff I've heard. 

[00:23:51] Talib Kweli: Yeah. That's exactly right. That's exactly right, which is why I don't need to be on it. That's exactly right because here's the thing, here's the problem with me, right? I'm a very intersectional person, you know, I'm not out here, slut-shaming. I'm not here calling women bitches and hoes. I'm not out here using the R word or using the F word. I don't do none of that. I'm not a bigot. I don't use bigoted language.

[00:24:14] Talib Kweli: But I'm very good with words. And so with the shit that I write in text, and I'm very blunt and direct. And so the shit I write in text, I feel like it triggers a lot of people in terms of, like, because I'm like, Hmm, nah. And I'm just very blunt and direct. If you come at me wrong, I can be insulting without lowering to this vibration of bigotry, right? Or, that's not true. Every man has fucking bigotry issues, but I try my best. I feel like I try more than most of the people I converse with, right? And so, that me, that shit just comes off as snark, bro, and people just be upset, 'cause they feel like you making 'em look stupid and they get very upset and very tight. And that's what it would be for me at Clubhouse. I would say some slick shit and people would get very upset very quick. 

[00:25:04] Dan Runcie: No, I hear that. I hear you on that. It's been, what, almost two years since you've been off Twitter. 

[00:25:09] Talib Kweli: Yeah, it's been since 2020. 

[00:25:11] Dan Runcie: Okay. Do you miss it? 

[00:25:12] Talib Kweli: No, I don't. It was time. I had been on Twitter for 10 years. I don't miss it at all. I enjoyed my time there though. But, you know, I don't miss it because I honestly, for real, in my heart of hearts, I really, truly, truly, truly do not want to be someplace where I'm not wanted. Like, I stand by that. Like, mm-hmm. Like, if they don't want me there, I don't have no desire to be there.

[00:25:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah. You're not missing much. I'll be honest with you. As someone who spends too much time on that place, you're not missing much. 

[00:25:42] Talib Kweli: Yeah. What I do realize is that being on Twitter, as much as I was on Twitter and then not on Twitter, is that the things that I was talking to people about on Twitter, and these things, let's not get it twisted, right?

[00:25:53] Talib Kweli: These are things that are shifting the culture. And these are things that are shaping the world. The things I was talking about in particular, I wasn't talking about frivolous shit. I wasn't talking about rat beefs or whatever I was talking about, you know, real things. The things I was talking about on Twitter became mainstream news years later, things that I was ringing a bell on, and a lot of us were ringing a bell on and people were just not paying attention.

[00:26:14] Talib Kweli: But what I realized was a lot of the things that were elevated in my mind to a level of super I importance that we have to talk about this, people who are not on Twitter, not thinking about none of that shit, not talking about none of it. And so that's why a lot of the stuff that I was going through on Twitter, a lot of stuff that became so ugly and toxic, part of it that I wasn't understanding was when I was like, yo, how is this happening? How's the community letting this happen? Because the community really didn't care, really didn't care. And I'm not saying that to disparage anybody on Twitter. I don't want to seem like now, now, cause I'm not on Twitter, like, haha, oh, y'all whack up being on Twitter. I'm not saying that because Twitter is still a very important tool.

[00:26:57] Talib Kweli: That's why all the conversation about Elon Musk and all that stuff is so prevalent and so important. There are people who still use Twitter in amazing ways. Absolutely. But I agree with you. Twitter is a cesspool and it was a cesspool when I was there. It's just a lot clearer not being there and a lot more understanding for why people didn't give a shit about it, you know, now looking at the engagement. I'm glad I was there. I learned a lot. I gained a lot. It was a gift and a curse, but mostly a gift for me. But yeah, it was time for me to go and they decided that before I did, but they were correct. 

[00:27:31] Dan Runcie: And I think with that, too, it's a bit of that double standard that I think public figures like yourself are kind of put towards, right? People can, you know, reply at you and talk all sorts of shit to you and take what you say out of context. But if you go back at them, then they're going to say, okay, he's putting his fan base back at me. He's doing this. 

[00:27:47] Talib Kweli: Yeah, that's such an important part of this conversation, right? And I want to be clear here because like I said, I'm an intersectional person. So, you know, I don't want to be the guy that he's here to protect black women. And, well, what about men, you know what I'm saying? Because as a man, I'm a member of a privileged, oppressor group, I'll go as far to say. But there's a phrase, black men are often the white men of the black community, right? Now that phrase is funny, is hyperbolic, right, but it's based in some truth. And I understand why people would say that. When women be like all men are dogs. Yeah. I get it. I don't personally feel like I'm a dog. I've done some dog shit before, but I don't personally look at myself like that. I don't feel offended by that, but just because black men can and often are the white men of the black community, if we're going to be hyperbolic, right? 

[00:28:37] Talib Kweli: Doesn't mean that we're not still part of a marginalized group of people. It doesn't mean that we're not still under attack. Doesn't mean that we're not still faced with many threats and that we don't still need protection, 'cause we absolutely do. And the conversation in our community has to be about the black community, has to be about women, and children, and men, and gay people, and disabled people, and rich people, and poor people, has to be about all of us.

[00:29:07] Talib Kweli: If we're talking about the conversation around systemic oppression. And so the idea that because I've earned an extra layer of privilege, 'cause I'm already born with some privileges. I'm already born in America, born as a man, but because I've mastered my craft, worked hard to master my craft. And it's earned me a degree of fame, and a degree of celebrity, and a degree of money that a lot of people can't earn or not in a position to earn resource and all that, because of that, I'm now supposed to allow people to disrespect, not just me, but my family and particularly the women in my family?

[00:29:41] Talib Kweli: And I'm not allowed to be a human being and want to respond and have a response? The things that people say about celebrity is that they're disconnecting, that they don't engage. I don't view myself as celebrity. I view myself as an artist. Well, as an artist, I'm going to talk to the people and for better or for worse, you know? What I realize now is that me talking to the people has put a target on my back because a lot of these people don't even deal with these people. They just block people, look and call 'em trolls.

[00:30:10] Talib Kweli: They don't even talk to anybody. And I'm not built that way. And I understand the logic behind it, but I also, there's also a method to my madness as well. And so the idea, I push back hard against the idea that you have a pass to undervalue my humanity or to not treat me like a human being because you haven't earned what I've earned in terms of cultural currency, you know, because you choose to be anonymous, or because you are not famous, or because you are not, I don't know, whatever, like, I can't abide by that. I can't. I find myself inclined to speak out against that idea that we lack humanity, or we are less human, or we deserve to be treated less than because we're famous, or because we have a million followers, or whatever the metric is, I don't know. 

[00:31:00] Dan Runcie: And I think this point brings the conversation full circle, right? Because so many people, when you and Yasiin decided to release the album on your terms, they're like, oh, well, you're not going to put it on streaming. You're missing out, that you shouldn't be doing this. And y'all are like, This is our music. You can't tell us what to do. Like, this is our craft. And I think it just goes back to the entitlement of people feeling like they have the ability to dictate what you do when you are the one that is in control of what you do. 

[00:31:31] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I mean, that's, I'm glad you brought that up 'cause for me, those conversations are difficult, right? Because I'm an advocate for artists. I'm a fan. So when we talk about fans, right, we're not talking about, I'm not separate from that group. When you see me post on Instagram videos of me with Bun B, and I'm jumping up and down just like any fan would. I'm not playing it cool, you know what I'm saying? Like, so I'm a fan as well. And me as a fan, I'm a fan of these artists as human beings. That's why I wrote that article In Defense Of Ms. Hill ' cause it's like, if I'm a fan of her music, then yo sis, take your time. If you don't feel like showing up at the show tonight, Hey, I guess we got to eat that one tonight.

[00:32:09] Talib Kweli: But you're still Ms. Hill, you're a human being. You're not some product that rolls out on stage. You press a button, it just goes. If you're having a human issue, you're a human being that's having a human issue. Let us know when you got some new shit and I'll be happy to support. I likely, if you give me an option, I'll overpay for it.

[00:32:25] Talib Kweli: How about that? Because I can't quantify what you've given me, and that's honestly how I feel. So it's hard for me to relate to these fans, be like, I want, first of all, that's even the wrong language to be using with me, talking about what you want, you know what I'm saying? If you want the Black Star, I'm going to make the Black Star out.

[00:32:41] Talib Kweli: And if you can't, then meet us halfway, bro, and come to where I'm at, because guess what? The first Black Star album, Universal says they own and they don't own it. We've never signed a contract for that album. So they've been profiting off of that. So if you bought that or listen to streaming, you've been paying some rich white company that has nothing to do with Black Star.

[00:33:01] Talib Kweli: Every song in that album is available on YouTube. Most of my music is available for free on YouTube. On Kweliclub.com, you could get all my mixtapes for free. You could get the album Fuck the Money for free. My biggest song Get By, you could, if that shit came on in the store, you could Shazam it and listen to it on Shazam for free, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's got 15 million views on YouTube. You could go listen to it on YouTube for free. You mean to tell me I can't get $10 or $5 or $30 with a new Black Star album, with all this free music you getting? What are we even talking about? You know what I'm saying? Like, how are you ignoring all of this, to complain about this?

[00:33:39] Dan Runcie: Right. It's like, you've had so much up to this point. It's not like you haven't had anything, you know, like, if you want to be able to put this one out on your terms, then yeah, here it is. You know, you don't owe anyone anything. 

[00:33:51] Talib Kweli: Yeah. I find it hard to relate to the people who don't understand that, which is why, if you notice, when I've been on social media and people ask about it, my response has been, well, this album is not for you.

[00:34:00] Talib Kweli: And maybe I should stop doing that because that's such a triggering thing to say to people. And I've been saying it a lot 'cause I mean it. But then it starts these long arguments with me. Fuck you and you're mean to the fans. It's like, nah, my fans are listening to the album. Now whether or not they like it or not, that's subjective. 

[00:34:18] Talib Kweli: My fans were listening to Midnight Miracle. And if they weren't, if you are a fan, who's watching this podcast right now and you didn't know about Midnight Miracle, go listen to it because you're a fan. You want to hear what we got, you want it. If you are a fan of us, be a fan of us.

[00:34:33] Talib Kweli: I don't believe to separate the artists from the music. I don't do that. I feel like that's a cop-out. Let me not say that because, let me just speak for myself. You can't do that with me because I am what my music is. All them lies they be telling about me, it doesn't go with my music. It doesn't go with my actions.

[00:34:51] Talib Kweli: It doesn't go with the truth. i I am what I say in these bars. I stand on that. I'm very proud of that. 

[00:34:57] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think the other piece of this, too, that I think has now just become the norm in music is that so many artists are predispositioned to be like, okay, lemme just put my music out on streaming.

[00:35:07] Dan Runcie: Treat it like it's marketing, get it out there. And then let me make my money when I go on tour. But the way that you all have it set up, I mean, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. You can get the money from the art, and you could also get the money, you know, if you and Yasiin choose to do a tour together.

[00:35:24] Talib Kweli: I mean, I was touring, I was touring before the pandemic. I was doing 200 shows a year. So that's more than anybody, you know, like I was, that model right there. Think about it. I got 16 albums out, doing 200 shows a year. So that's what, 'you're describing my life. That's exactly what I was doing. And I don't do that anymore, and I don't plan on doing it again.

[00:35:43] Talib Kweli: But when I look at pictures or videos for myself from that time, I don't even recognize that person. Like, how was I doing that? That's not sustainable. I was on some super human shit. I don't know what, I don't know how I was doing this. I don't know how I was dropping music and touring at that pace.

[00:35:57] Talib Kweli: And still, like, doing activist work, and supporting my family, and just being me, and being on Twitter, you know what I'm saying? Like, all of it, I was doing all of it and I don't know how I was doing all that. 

[00:36:06] Dan Runcie: How many shows do you think you'll go back to? If 200 was a lot, what do you think is the ideal range?

[00:36:13] Talib Kweli: As you're saying, as I'm saying this to you, I'm thinking about it. I'm like, damn. I got a lot of shows coming up, but I can't let it get back to 200 a year. 

[00:36:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I mean, 'cause at that rate, yeah, I mean, you're talking, I mean, like more than half of the days of the year you are out there putting it all out there. I mean, yeah.

[00:36:29] Talib Kweli: 20 years straight, I did that for 20 years.

[00:36:31] Dan Runcie: And it's wild. It's wild. I mean, I think at least the position that you're potentially in now, you can earn more money from the actual music you're putting out. You clearly have, you know, a bit buy-in with a platform that has other people that are invested in it as well.

[00:36:45] Dan Runcie: And then with any other business interest that you may have, like, this is something to build up on, right? It's clearly, like, recurring revenue that you have and if you and Luminary continue to grow, then you can also tour and do any of that other stuff on your own terms. 

[00:36:59] Talib Kweli: Absolutely. Yeah. 

[00:37:00] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel that's the way to go with it. Well, Talib, this has been a great conversation. I feel like we covered a bunch just in terms of the importance of autonomy, importance of independence, and where you see things going. But for the people that are listening and they do want to follow, I'm sure they already know if they're listening, but where should they go to check for the latest of what you got going on?

[00:37:18] Talib Kweli: Man, just follow me on Instagram. If they don't kick me off Instagram, 'cause they be threatening to kick me off Instagram too. They don't like when I talk about racism on Instagram. So for as long as I'll be on Instagram, follow me there. I just joined Fanbase today. So I'm looking forward to exploring Fanbase.

[00:37:32] Talib Kweli: But I mean, you got to come see me in the flesh or don't actually, you know, like just, I don't know. Like, I've been out in the flesh a a lot, man. I don't know. I don't know. Just holler at me when you see me, and I'll try to make my presence known. For the near foreseeable future, I'm definitely going to be at Luminary. So I definitely encourage people to subscribe to Luminary. 

[00:37:52] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. And I appreciate the Fanbase shout out too. Shout out to Isaac Hayes III. I had him on the podcast couple of months ago. Love what he's building. 

[00:37:59] Talib Kweli: Yeah, me too. I've been knowing about it for a minute, but now as I'm starting to, like, really assess what's valuable to me, I'm, like, starting to look at things a little different, and I'm like, yeah, Fanbase. We can't keep talking about it, right? At some point we got support. 

[00:38:14] Dan Runcie: Right. Exactly. We know that this is the culture that pushes it forward. It's our culture. I mean, have the people that are about it to be the ones that actually own it in, we can see what happens.

[00:38:22] Talib Kweli: Yeah. Word up. 

[00:38:24] Dan Runcie: Yeah. All right, man. Appreciate you. 

[00:38:26] Talib Kweli: All right. Peace. 

[00:38:27] Dan Runcie: All right, man. Thanks. 

[00:38:29] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.



]]> 2444 no What Every Artist and Creator Needs to Know Before Signing Contracts https://www.trapital.com/podcast This week’s special guest on Trapital is entertainment lawyer Karl Fowlkes. As part of his own The Fowlkes Firm, Karl represents entertainers across many domains — from music to sports to media, including hip-hop’s rising star, Blxst. He pulled double duty, not only appearing on the podcast, but guest-writing for the newsletter about the need for the artist contract to evolve. In particular, Karl predicts shared equity between not only artists and record labels, but also with other parties like distributors or fintech companies. The days of record labels having 100-percent ownership of an artists’ masters could slowly be phased out over the next decade in favor of a split much more friendly toward the artist. Karl also has advice for an artist, or any content creator for that matter, signing a new contract — LOMO. The acronym stands for length, obligation, money, and ownership. These are the top-line items creators should prioritize when inking deals, according to Karl.  Karl has a ton more insights into how artists and creators can maximize their long term value, plus how deals will change in the near and distant future. Here’s everything we covered during our interview: [4:13] The Future Of The Artist Deal [5:50] Changes With Major Record Labels [7:36] Will Record Labels Exist In 10-20 Years? [11:20] Artists Wanting A Partnership, Not Signing  [15:50] Karl’s Advice To All Content Creators Signing Contracts [19:18] The Issue With Music Royalties [22:42] The Hip-Hop “Middle Class” [24:47] Building EVGLE Brand Alongside Blxst [25:08] Blxst Partnership Status With “Major” Labels Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Karl Fowlkes, @esqfowlkes, Fowlkes Firm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Karl Fowlkes If you're making $20,000 to $30,000 a month off music. I mean, damn, that’s pretty, you know, that's solid money. No, that's nothing to shirk off. And some of these people, if they were independent, they might not be the global superstars that they are, they might be a little bit more in control, they might have less obligations, and they might still be able to put out the music that they want to put out. And all that stuff sort of creates sort of a concoction of, man, and maybe I will be happier, maybe I wouldn't have to get fake teeth, get a bunch of gold chains. I wouldn't have to do that because I'm living a lifestyle that's conducive for long-term success.  [00:00:38]  Dan Runcie Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:58] Dan Runcie Today's episode is all about the deals that artists sign. There are so many more options and ways that artists can level up and types of companies that they can partner with. It's no longer just the record labels. There's alternative finance options, their distribution platforms, and more. And I broke this down today with my friend and well-respected entertainment attorney, Karl Fowlkes. And he runs an entertainment practice called The Fowlkes Firm where he represents artists like Blxst, producers, entertainers, athletes, and more.  [00:01:30]  Dan Runcie So I talked to Karl about his experience with this and what he sees as the future landscape. And Karl has this phrase that I think he needs to trademark, he has this phrase called LOMO, which is focused on the four key elements that artists should be focusing on when they're signing deals. The important thing about LOMO. And more broadly, this conversation is that this doesn't just apply to artists, look at all the different types of creators right now. There's so many deals that they're doing, there's so many opportunities from different companies that want to partner with them. And whenever those things happen, there are more and more contracts that aren't always set up in the easiest way for you to be able to understand and break this down. So we talked about that and where things are heading and how it really is shifting to a place where artists aren't just giving the keys to a big corporation to handle everything. Let's have them, build the businesses around themselves, partner with the different companies to fill in the different roles you need, and build up from there. This was a great conversation. I think it's really insightful for all the creators out there. So I hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Karl Fowlkes. All right, today, we got Karl Fowlkes with us who's back on the podcast from The Fowlkes Firm, you represent Blxst and a bunch of other artists. But we're here to talk about this guest piece that you wrote for Trapital, a really great piece about the future of the artists deal. So let's start at the top. Why did you want to write this piece? [00:02:56] Karl Fowlkes  I think right now, you know, historically, there's, there's been a few players. And those few players are really just record labels. So it kind of pigeonholes what the what the deal is going to look like, you know, now, there's so many different players out there. Technologies is infused all through the music industry. So there's, you know, there's distributors, there's advanced companies, right, they're just trying to like, you know, model what they can give you based on streaming algorithms, you know, companies like beatBread, for example. And then you still got those major labels, they're sort of offering a lot of those services. So the landscape is so different, I think, because there's so many different parties and so many different solutions. I think the deal has to change with the times that we're in. And oftentimes, you know, what I'm seeing, you know, I'm not seeing, you know, those changed deal terms. And, you know, I just think it's something that we need to get ahead of. [00:03:48] Dan Runcie  Yeah. And I feel like now you're hearing more than ever, people talk about ownership artists, whether or not they may have enough behind it, want to make sure that they're owning everything when they're coming to try to negotiate contracts. Do you feel like that's shifted the landscape? I mean, I feel like it's definitely improved the conversation around it, but do you feel like that's actually having an impact on the deals that are being made? [00:04:13] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, and it's been quite effective. You know, I think most people who are in my position, you know, doing deals on the attorney side are seeing contracts that, especially if there's any built-up leverage that almost exclusively, you know, have a license period, right? So instead of the full transfer of ownership or work-for-hire language I've seen in the past, I'm seeing a lot more 20-year licenses, 25-year licenses, 15-year licenses. So the artist is you know, almost exclusively, you want to get the masters back. Now some of the other top line terms might not be that different in terms of the royalty rate, or some, you know, the ancillary income. But you know, the ownership paradigm is definitely, definitely changing. And I think that's the unique thing about it today. [00:04:59] Dan Runcie  Yeah, because I feel like, especially with the major record labels is kind of two things happening, right? On one hand, you're streaming revenues are continuing to grow. And you have all these other revenue sources from outside of the digital streaming providers, whether that's with Peloton or Roblox and all these other partners that want a license deal. So while that's increasing, but on the other hand, more and more artists are not going to want to  just give up their masters in perpetuity. So the labels are also counteracting that piece of it. So I see them in a lot of ways, they're hoping that the revenue from all of these areas can offset the loss that's eventually going to come from the masters, because eventually you can earn money from the back catalog forever if the current artists are going to keep that back catalog, and the labels aren't going to be able to have it. [00:05:50] Karl Fowlkes  3,000%. So I think, I almost wonder why some of the record labels out there don't sort of take from their publishing counterparts, right? Because the co-pub deal is sort of set up as a joint ownership structure, 50-50, right? So the songwriter usually owns half the composition, and the publisher owns the other half of the composition. And, you know, when the term is up, the kind of, the songwriter can go do what they want with their 50%. And they can have, you know, whoever collects on it, and then you know, the record label can, sorry, the publisher can take their 50% and go collect on it as well. So it's a shared equity model. It's something that I think tends to work for better parties. I know, there's some mechanisms that are a little bit different, you know, as it relates to distribution of music versus collection of music. But I think that's sort of a precursor to, you know, maybe something we'll see, you know, happen over the next 10 to 20 years. [00:06:46] Dan Runcie  What do you think the next 10 to 20 years will look like? Because I often have this conversation with a lot of people, some people go to the extreme of being like, no record labels will be extinct by then. And I've never quite gotten to that perspective, just because the people still ignore the desire that people have to be the biggest star in the world and where they feel like they need to go in order to do that. But I do think that we'll likely see more of these shared equity or more of these flexible options because I feel like one of the things you highlight in the piece is that it's great that there's so many distributors and places that you can release your music, but it's still a pretty big difference where it's like, okay, you either got to give up everything, and we'll make you a superstar, or you try to do it your own. But it's still hard to get to that level without some additional support. [00:07:36] Karl Fowlkes Yeah, I think the next 10 to 20 years are going to be a very interesting time. And I don't think anything's going to be figured out in the next 10 to 20 years, just because I think there are so many different emerging business models, right? Like, I keep talking about these music tech companies, kind of coming in and offering using algorithms and, you know, formulas to sort of create an estimate on, you know, what your royalties could be, will make in the next three to four years. They'll give you a big advance, right, and now to reference beatBread, because, you know, I just saw they did that for a massive artist recently. And they're, they're not really they're not offering service or anything, we're just going to give you that funding element. And I think historically, if you look at startups, and you know, there's always been a lot of artists, our founders’ conversation in the past five years, but when you look at a lot of startups, it's really hard to scale a business without capital. So capital is always going to be sort of the driving force on any decision I think you have to make in your business journey at a certain point. So I think what will happen is labels will realize I think the all-or-nothing approach of sort of either doing a license deal or completely owning the masters isn't really probably in anyone's best interest, including theirs. And I think we'll see more shared equity, right, and more investing in artists, you know, being in business with an artist forever, like in a tasteful way, right? Like, owning 20% of somebody's master for perpetuity seems a lot better than owning 100% of someone's, you know, master in perpetuity, right. There's, there's like a natural, if you’re an artist, you might be able to live with that, hey, this person gave me a million dollars. They have different access, resources, and funding opportunities throughout and they have a history of helping artists, you know, why don't I, we can we could share this thing forever, but you know, I'll be in control. I think that makes a lot more sense. [00:09:32] Dan Runcie  Yeah. And what I think it does is it itemizes how to look at the value add that you're either getting from a record label or from another type of partner, right? Because at its core, a record label deal is very similar to a private equity model. I know a lot of people make the venture capital comparison. But I think it's a bit more like private equity or even more so an M&A deal where you are essentially selling yourself as the business, at least to the recorded music business of what you're doing, to this company. And then in return, they are paying you for the services, and they're obviously going to try to maximize it as much as they can with everything they offer, from marketing to promotion to all the other services that you can essentially get counsel advice, so on. But I think the shift and what we're seeing a lot more artists do, more so I'd say on the independent side, I think we'll see some of the bigger artists do it, too, they want to create the business, they want to be the one that is doing the actual tasks, and how can they have, you know, things set up around them in order to do that. And it's something we see with all creatives to some extent, right? I feel like some people are always going to, maybe they want to gravitate more towards the business side of things, maybe they want to gravitate more towards the art that they actually do need to make. But still, if you're going to take the business side of it, then yeah, there is likely going to be a company you go to for marketing support, there's going to be a company you go to for PR or for distribution or for those things. And if you do it that way, then you're likely going to have a better approach about how you're making deals. And I feel like this is one of the key things that, like, you and I've been talking about for years now, just in terms of like how these things get set up, and how these things should be set up, especially for the artists that are willing to put in the work. [00:11:20] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, I think what artists and their teams, too, are realizing are, you know, they're still doing a ton of work, even after they signed to the record label, right. And I think some of those things, historically, that we may be thought or attributed to regularly, but whether it's right or wrong, are things that in this generation, you know, teams, managers, other team members on that direct artists’ team are being tasked with, and, and they're executing, you know, to some extent, right? We're seeing TikTok campaigns being launched. And then that being the driving force of, of an artist being signed to a multimillion-dollar license deal, right, because that artists and their team leverage, you know, that music technology to create some moment, momentum and drive the price of that deal up. We're seeing a lot of that. So I think all that's making artists and their teams do is say, hey, if we're going to do a lot of the strategy and, and work to get signed, maybe signing doesn't necessarily make sense, maybe we're looking for, for something else, maybe it's not traditional, we signed to you model. It's like, let's partner, I need you for a few things. The rest we can take care of, we need some funding, and you know, we need some support on you know, a radio, we need some money, some of your tools that you might have and your staffing, but you know, eventually, we think we'll be able to do that stuff down the line. I think that's kind of the fut ure more and more sort of artists’ companies. And you see some of these catalogs, you're like, yeah, that's like, that's, you know, that's a mini-company. You know, I know, we talked, we saw Justin Timberlake’s catalog sold for, I believe, roughly $100 million. But you think about companies that could sell for $100 million, like, they have more than, like, two employees, where it's actually a company. Like, there's people driving marketing campaigns, there's the Human Resources Department, there's, you know, so I always think it's funny, because when you actually look at the valuation of the IP, and what something is actually making year over year, and, you know, that's like, that's a pretty sizable company, that that's probably not staffed correctly. I think that's probably what we'll see in the future is, hopefully, these companies and they can get staffed correctly. [00:13:35] Dan Runcie  And it makes you also think about, okay, let's take the Justin Timberlake example, obviously, someone that had a very successful and still has had a very successful solo career. But how much more value could there have been if he had created things in the way that, you know, we're talking about here? Obviously, there's a trade-off there, because I do think he's clearly someone that benefited more than the average person for a number of reasons from the major record label system and the broader media system that we're in. But yeah, $100 million, like, you think about a startup that is reaching $100 billion, you already have the idea of how big that startup is, what’s that startup’s trajectory looks like. And obviously, this is a little bit different because it's based on that recurring revenue stream. But still, I mean, it's huge, [00:14:22] Karl Fowlkes  Right? And I think like it's when we talk about sales and you know, when a company has to do get due diligence done on them, right so you look under the hood and you know, you're trying to see what that company actually owns. Do they even own the rights? Do they own the pub rights? Do they own the likeness? Do they own the trademarks, right? But if a company, for an artist, you know, driven company It doesn't have to be one artist. I think, you know, obviously, there's going to be a lot more collective and smarter labels, I think, in the future that are successful and, you know, running this model. But, you know, if you do due diligence on a company, and they do own all the IP, they do own all the trademarks, they do own the pub, and they do own the record, and there's employees in place, and there's procedures in place, and there's a history and books to sort of show what's happening over the past 5 to 10 years, you know, you're right, like, you know, these, these evaluations are probably being done on just raw numbers. But if you were to factor in some of this other stuff, it's like, man, this is like a, this is a well-oiled machine, this might be worth a little bit more. [00:15:22] Dan Runcie  Yeah, for sure. And I feel like once we were able to get there, a lot of it is focused on the type of deals, people can make and how specific they're getting about these. And you have been pushing and promoting this acronym about how artists, and I think this even extends beyond artists, how anyone that is creating content or making any type of deal should be looking at things. So what's the advice there that you give for that? And what are the elements to look out for? [00:15:50]  Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, yeah, you know, a strategy I've sort of been using and I created, I believe it was about a year and a half ago in talking to a few clients was, you know, length, obligation, money, and ownership. And those four key things are sort of the top line things you need to worry about when you're forming a contract. And also, I like to think about, you know, clients and people I'm talking to, when I'm discussing LOMO, just prioritizing those things, right? Because you're not going to have, you're not going to have the perfect deal where you have a short term, you get, you get a lot of money, your obligations low, and you get to own everything. That's just not, that's just not realistic. But what I do think is realistic is, you know, putting together a strategy that you can sort of, you know, put those things in order and you know, 5, 6, 7 years down the line, be happy with whatever sort of business you set up for yourself because you knew what you were getting into. You knew what your priorities were and you knew what you were signing. So I think those four top line terms: length, obligation, money, and ownership are the driving force of, they’re for sure the backbone of every contract, and for better or worse, I think those terms have decided whether an artist is going to be on Twitter in five years, talking about how they hate their contract, or they're going to be, you know, being able to sell their catalog for $50 to $100 million in 10 years, right? So I think LOMO is really important, and they'll help you sort of prioritize your needs if you are an artist. And again, that's not just for the artists, that's for the artists’ team. That's where these collectives that are coming up, I think those are probably will be the ones enforcing that strategy. But you know, LOMO is very, it's very useful, I think. [00:17:35] Dan Runcie You got LOMO trademarked? [00:17:37] Karl Fowlkes I haven't gotten LOMO trademark, man, that's crazy. Maybe after this episode. [00:17:42] Dan Runcie  I mean, I feel like you got it, I mean, because that's so many of these things, right? How do you, like, simplify things to just make it clear and take away so much of the legalese that I think is in there, and many times as a tactic itself to confuse artists? [00:18:00] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, I mean, and again, like some of the legal, you hire an attorney to do the hard legal work, right? That's like the job of, you know, when people are generally saying artists, you need to understand your deals, we're not saying you need to become an attorney overnight because you still need an attorney, you need someone who's, that's someone else's job. Your job is to sort of run your company, you know, have a little bit of insight on some of these objectives and stuff that you're building. But you should really have a key indicator of those top line terms, that's what you really need to know. You're not going to know what the indemnification clause is, or you're not going to get into the warranties and representation. That's not the best use of your time. But you should know how long the contract is. You should know how much money, how much royalty you're going to get, or how the royalties are even paid out. You should know what you're required to do. You know, all those good things are the core of a contract. And I think that artists need to focus less on some of the nitty-gritty of the contract. You're not going to read too much legalese in a contract. But you know, those four things will help you sort of, you know, understand what you're signing. [00:19:03] Dan Runcie  Yeah, I agree. And you mentioned earlier about the artists that are going to be on Twitter complaining about their deal. Is there an area of LOMO that you think they're most likely to complain about or have an issue about? [00:19:18] Karl Fowlkes  Oh, yeah, that's a really good question. I think oftentimes, it's a combination of usually two things, but I think it's the maybe the way royalties are paid out. I think once you really understand recoupment, you know, it's not like a net profit. It's not like an off top thing, and what I mean by that is, if you're recouping at the royalty rate, I mean, If you have a 20% royalty rate, you got to make five times, you know, to recoup, right, to get even, right? because, you know, you're, if a dollar of money is generated, only 20 cents of that dollar is counting toward, you know, paying back the label, right? So you got to make five, you got to make 25 times over. I think that's the part that really rubs people the wrong way, right? Just because if it was a net profit situation, or an off top, right, you know, all costs go toward recoupment,, and then you get 80. And I get 20. and still be bad, but it'd be a little better, it'd be, it'd be a little less bad. So I think it's that part of the money that really, really gets people upset, because I'm not even sure that, you know, these companies really don't have to do that. Like, that is just, and I'm not, I'm not in the business of, I don't care. Like, that's just stupid. That's a bad business model. I think that's the reason why a lot of disruptions happen, because that just so that's so one-sided. [00:20:36] Dan Runcie  Yeah, it makes me think of Meek Mill, when he had posted, at some point earlier this year, I don't know when I'm going to get paid, or I haven't gotten paid for this. And this is someone that, you know, could sell hundreds of thousands in his first week with, at least to do with Championships, or whatever the album was when he, llike, first came out of prison, but he still doesn't know, and he's also someone that runs a record label himself, or he has the joint venture with Roc Nation for his Dream Chasers. So it's like, even at that level, artists still don't know. [00:21:08] Karl Fowlkes Yeah, I mean, Benny The Butcher, definitely a favorite rapper of mine. But you know, I was listening to a Freestyle yesterday, he did, I think, with Charlie Sloth on London. And he said, these rappers, you know, they're doing 100k first week, but you know, he's still not recouped. And I always, that is interesting, right? Because, you know, we all care about these sorts of, these first week numbers, but, you know, how much money is it taking to get to those first week numbers? And, you know, still, you're still probably in a hole, depending on the advances you've got. Advances are good, but it's also a way for you to continue to be locked in that contract, right? Would you rather. have some people want that $5 million check. But you know, you lose leverage me the more money you take. That's just the reality of it. [00:21:56] Dan Runcie  Right. Yeah. I, I think that Benny, of course. And I think Griselda overall, they figured it out in a model that actually works for them. And I think Russ probably falls in this category as well, where it's like, okay, you know, we don't care about the first week numbers. We actually want to have a business that runs, right? So Griselda could sell $75 or $100 vinyls or, you know, butcher cleaves, or whatever it is, in order to, you know, have, like, high-end merch that people are going to want to buy. And I think for a lot of artists, yeah, there is at least a bit of a trade-off to some extent, like, do you care more about the revenue? Or do you care more about the fame and the accolades and the media and stuff? And I don't think that's as black and white for most artists as they think it is. [00:22:42] Karl Fowlkes   Yeah, because like, the real metrics that people should care about, you know, we're not in this all for money, but I think money and ownership, if you have those things, and you're building a model that sort of is conducive, and not just because you're doing shows all the time, like, you know, I'm not sure Russ passed pop out ar nightclubs, you know, just to pay his bills, I know for a fact he doesn't have to do that, right. And that sort of the flexibility and freedom that I think guys really want when they hop into the rap game. They want to be able to, you know, sit down sit by the Dame Dash Calls it that “by the pool money,” right? You know, I want to be able to put my feet up by the pool, have their residual income coming in, and you know, and really be a boss really be a CEO not have to perform in Shreveport, Louisiana, you know, at a nightclub to pay my bills because I'm not getting any money from my music. Streaming is not the best model yet, from a payout standpoint, but because of how often and consistently people are streaming music, it's still an effective way for you to get money, right? So I think, when Russ posts TuneCore statements, you know, that is, obviously not everyone's going to have that sort of consistency and hard work. But you know, a lot of that's real, I mean, if you have five, I always talk about that, that hip-hop, middle class that needs to emerge, and you need to be happy and we need to celebrate those people. And because if you're making $20,000 or $30,000 a month of music, damn, I mean you could talk, you know, that's solid money. No, that's nothing to shirk off. And some of these people, if they were independent, they might not be the global superstars that they are, they might be a little bit more in control, they might have less obligations, and they might still be able to put out the music that they want to put out. And all that stuff sort of creates sort of a concoction of, man, and maybe I will be happier, maybe I wouldn't have to get fake teeth and get a bunch of gold chains. I wouldn't have to do that because I'm living a lifestyle that's conducive for long-term success.  So I think that I think that's really important, too. I mean, that's, that's kind of where I am. And that's not the sort of education that I'm putting out. [00:24:47] Dan Runcie And I feel like that's also how you're building the businesses that you have and what you're associated with, right? I look at what you and Vic and the team are building, with Blxst as well, and what you're building with Evgle, and I feel like this is exactly that. Like, you're building the company that structured around this. Can you talk a bit about how you all have things set up? [00:25:08] Karl Fowlkes Yeah, so Evgle is a company that I am an equity partner in. It's me, Victor Burnett, who was the president and is also Blxst’s manager. And then you obviously have Blxst, who is the key cog, the creative genius, and really someone who's sort of, you know, been patient, and made this all possible. But, you know, the way we're set up is, you know, we were, we're a company, privately-owned, and we've been able to partner with entities in, you know, retain 100% ownership of IP, make sure we're getting, you know, some of that mail, that by the pool money at all times, and in putting ourselves in a position for us to, you know, not just build vertically, but horizontally. We're building out, you know, we have a full staff, you know, we have health care for everybody. We have office space, all those, all that fun stuff, that I think that, you know, isn't probably celebrated enough in building a company and particularly in hip-hop. So that's kind of how we're building. And I think long term,  we're empowering our artists and the people that come next, to do the same thing. It's not going to be, hey, you signed with Evgle, or we're taking your masters, and you're taking ownership and control of everything. That's, that's just not what we're doing. And, you know, I think Vic and Blxst in particular, are very, very cognizant of that. And so I think, I think we're trying to lead the way in that regard. [00:26:34] Dan Runcie  So is the plan to continue to build the company solely around the brand of Blxst himself as the creative or do you also want to bring on other artists, too? [00:26:46] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, so we already signed another I’ll call a multi-hyphenate, you know talent as well. He's an artist and producer. So we'll be rolling him out sometime later this summer, maybe early fall, then we have another producer signed on or partnered on, sometimes I use old terms, but partnered on the publishing side. So there are two other creatives already, you know, in-house, and I think the goal will be to get bigger, you know, as time goes by [00:27:14] Dan Runcie  And then in terms of Blxst specifically, what does his relationships look like with the major record label system and being able to amplify the work that he does? [00:27:25] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. You know, we obviously have a public relationship with Red Bull Records, who's our partner on the record side, and it's been a super fruitful partnership. You know, Blxst has, you know, elevated his career. They've been really helpful in allowing Evgle to stay, you know, 100% independent, and building what we built. So, kudos to Red Bull. And those guys over there, in Red Bull’s distributor, is The Orchard. So we do have a, I guess, major label tie, righ?. So you know, but that's really kind of, you know, I think all three of us, you know, Blxst is a multi-hyphenate to the truest extent ever, you know, he's, he can edit his own videos, he does his design work, he can produce his songs, he engineers it. You know, Vic, similar type of talent, you know,  he's, you know, he's, he's a merch guru, you know, great leader, great manager. And same with myself, obviously, I'm a lawyer, but, you know, as an operator, and someone who builds businesses on the sort of technical and admin side, you know, I love that part. So we're talking about three people who are multi-hyphenates. I think when you have people like that, you don't have to outsource as much throughout the different phases of growth. And we've been able to resist some of the pitfalls that other companies have had to go through because we've been able to scale to  2x to 5x by doing a lot of stuff in-house and I think I don't think that's going to change. And you know, our growth has been incremental and positive, you know, year after year and I think that's because we're taking the steps and we're not trying to build something really quickly. [00:29:11] Dan Runcie  Yeah, you're trying to build for the long haul, right? And if Blxst’s someday going to have his triple-figure catalog sale, if he want ever wants that, that's going to be done by, you know, building step by step. You're building for the long term, even though I'm sure, right now, especially after the Kendrick feature, and he's just been blowing up especially I feel like for the past two years now, but I feel like especially the past, like, 12, 18 months, you've been seeing more and more, at least publicly, I feel like, it may seem like it, you know, things are going fast, but I feel like, you know, talking to you all, yeah, you know, this is a long game. [00:29:46] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, it's a long game. And you also know, like, you know, behind the scenes, we've been aggressive, in know, diversifying our company profile and our portfolio and what we're trying to build, you know, outside of music. You know, I think all of us also realize the entertainment industry is also just a vehicle, to impact the world. So, you know, at some point, your vehicles change. And I think we're also we also realize that, you know, everything that we're building today, you know, has to be bigger than, bigger than just the industry that we that we exist in. That's just not, it wouldn't be fulfilling for for any of us. So, I think that's it, we're very cognizant of that. [00:30:23] Dan Runcie  That makes sense. That makes sense. Good stuff, man. I am excited to see not just more change in the industry, but obviously, I think you wrote this piece for a really timely reason. And we're gonna continue to see the impact of that. So yeah, if you're listening, definitely go check out The Future of the Artist Deal. It's up now on the Trapital website. And Karl, before we let you go, anything else that you want to plug? Or let the listeners know about now?   [00:30:50] Karl Fowlkes No, man. I mean, honestly, just keep your eyes out for everything we're doing at Evgle, I think there's going to be a lot of fun, disruptive stuff that we announced, and we do over the next couple of months to a year. And, you know, personally, you know, The Fowlkes Firm is growing as a disruptor in the law firm space. So, you know, look out for those two things. And, you know, I just challenge everyone to challenge the status quo. You know, that's, that's what we're all here for. [00:31:17] Dan Runcie That's the only way the industry grows, right?  [00:31:19] Karl Fowlkes Yeah. [00:31:19] Dan Runcie  Exactly. I appreciate you, man. Thank you. [00:31:22] Karl Fowlkes All right. [00:31:24] Dan Runcie  If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.   Fri, 15 Jul 2022 08:00:00 -0000 What Every Artist and Creator Needs to Know Before Signing Contracts full Dan Runcie This week’s special guest on Trapital is entertainment lawyer Karl Fowlkes. As part of his own The Fowlkes Firm, Karl represents entertainers across many domains — from music to sports to media, including hip-hop’s rising star, Blxst. He pulled double duty, not only appearing on the podcast, but guest-writing for the newsletter about the need for the artist contract to evolve. In particular, Karl predicts shared equity between not only artists and record labels, but also with other parties like distributors or fintech companies. The days of record labels having 100-percent ownership of an artists’ masters could slowly be phased out over the next decade in favor of a split much more friendly toward the artist. Karl also has advice for an artist, or any content creator for that matter, signing a new contract — LOMO. The acronym stands for length, obligation, money, and ownership. These are the top-line items creators should prioritize when inking deals, according to Karl.  Karl has a ton more insights into how artists and creators can maximize their long term value, plus how deals will change in the near and distant future. Here’s everything we covered during our interview: [4:13] The Future Of The Artist Deal [5:50] Changes With Major Record Labels [7:36] Will Record Labels Exist In 10-20 Years? [11:20] Artists Wanting A Partnership, Not Signing  [15:50] Karl’s Advice To All Content Creators Signing Contracts [19:18] The Issue With Music Royalties [22:42] The Hip-Hop “Middle Class” [24:47] Building EVGLE Brand Alongside Blxst [25:08] Blxst Partnership Status With “Major” Labels Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Karl Fowlkes, @esqfowlkes, Fowlkes Firm Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Karl Fowlkes If you're making $20,000 to $30,000 a month off music. I mean, damn, that’s pretty, you know, that's solid money. No, that's nothing to shirk off. And some of these people, if they were independent, they might not be the global superstars that they are, they might be a little bit more in control, they might have less obligations, and they might still be able to put out the music that they want to put out. And all that stuff sort of creates sort of a concoction of, man, and maybe I will be happier, maybe I wouldn't have to get fake teeth, get a bunch of gold chains. I wouldn't have to do that because I'm living a lifestyle that's conducive for long-term success.  [00:00:38]  Dan Runcie Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:58] Dan Runcie Today's episode is all about the deals that artists sign. There are so many more options and ways that artists can level up and types of companies that they can partner with. It's no longer just the record labels. There's alternative finance options, their distribution platforms, and more. And I broke this down today with my friend and well-respected entertainment attorney, Karl Fowlkes. And he runs an entertainment practice called The Fowlkes Firm where he represents artists like Blxst, producers, entertainers, athletes, and more.  [00:01:30]  Dan Runcie So I talked to Karl about his experience with this and what he sees as the future landscape. And Karl has this phrase that I think he needs to trademark, he has this phrase called LOMO, which is focused on the four key elements that artists should be focusing on when they're signing deals. The important thing about LOMO. And more broadly, this conversation is that this doesn't just apply to artists, look at all the different types of creators right now. There's so many deals that they're doing, there's so many opportunities from different companies that want to partner with them. And whenever those things happen, there are more and more contracts that aren't always set up in the easiest way for you to be able to understand and break this down. So we talked about that and where things are heading and how it really is shifting to a place where artists aren't just giving the keys to a big corporation to handle everything. Let's have them, build the businesses around themselves, partner with the different companies to fill in the different roles you need, and build up from there. This was a great conversation. I think it's really insightful for all the creators out there. So I hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Karl Fowlkes. All right, today, we got Karl Fowlkes with us who's back on the podcast from The Fowlkes Firm, you represent Blxst and a bunch of other artists. But we're here to talk about this guest piece that you wrote for Trapital, a really great piece about the future of the artists deal. So let's start at the top. Why did you want to write this piece? [00:02:56] Karl Fowlkes  I think right now, you know, historically, there's, there's been a few players. And those few players are really just record labels. So it kind of pigeonholes what the what the deal is going to look like, you know, now, there's so many different players out there. Technologies is infused all through the music industry. So there's, you know, there's distributors, there's advanced companies, right, they're just trying to like, you know, model what they can give you based on streaming algorithms, you know, companies like beatBread, for example. And then you still got those major labels, they're sort of offering a lot of those services. So the landscape is so different, I think, because there's so many different parties and so many different solutions. I think the deal has to change with the times that we're in. And oftentimes, you know, what I'm seeing, you know, I'm not seeing, you know, those changed deal terms. And, you know, I just think it's something that we need to get ahead of. [00:03:48] Dan Runcie  Yeah. And I feel like now you're hearing more than ever, people talk about ownership artists, whether or not they may have enough behind it, want to make sure that they're owning everything when they're coming to try to negotiate contracts. Do you feel like that's shifted the landscape? I mean, I feel like it's definitely improved the conversation around it, but do you feel like that's actually having an impact on the deals that are being made? [00:04:13] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, and it's been quite effective. You know, I think most people who are in my position, you know, doing deals on the attorney side are seeing contracts that, especially if there's any built-up leverage that almost exclusively, you know, have a license period, right? So instead of the full transfer of ownership or work-for-hire language I've seen in the past, I'm seeing a lot more 20-year licenses, 25-year licenses, 15-year licenses. So the artist is you know, almost exclusively, you want to get the masters back. Now some of the other top line terms might not be that different in terms of the royalty rate, or some, you know, the ancillary income. But you know, the ownership paradigm is definitely, definitely changing. And I think that's the unique thing about it today. [00:04:59] Dan Runcie  Yeah, because I feel like, especially with the major record labels is kind of two things happening, right? On one hand, you're streaming revenues are continuing to grow. And you have all these other revenue sources from outside of the digital streaming providers, whether that's with Peloton or Roblox and all these other partners that want a license deal. So while that's increasing, but on the other hand, more and more artists are not going to want to  just give up their masters in perpetuity. So the labels are also counteracting that piece of it. So I see them in a lot of ways, they're hoping that the revenue from all of these areas can offset the loss that's eventually going to come from the masters, because eventually you can earn money from the back catalog forever if the current artists are going to keep that back catalog, and the labels aren't going to be able to have it. [00:05:50] Karl Fowlkes  3,000%. So I think, I almost wonder why some of the record labels out there don't sort of take from their publishing counterparts, right? Because the co-pub deal is sort of set up as a joint ownership structure, 50-50, right? So the songwriter usually owns half the composition, and the publisher owns the other half of the composition. And, you know, when the term is up, the kind of, the songwriter can go do what they want with their 50%. And they can have, you know, whoever collects on it, and then you know, the record label can, sorry, the publisher can take their 50% and go collect on it as well. So it's a shared equity model. It's something that I think tends to work for better parties. I know, there's some mechanisms that are a little bit different, you know, as it relates to distribution of music versus collection of music. But I think that's sort of a precursor to, you know, maybe something we'll see, you know, happen over the next 10 to 20 years. [00:06:46] Dan Runcie  What do you think the next 10 to 20 years will look like? Because I often have this conversation with a lot of people, some people go to the extreme of being like, no record labels will be extinct by then. And I've never quite gotten to that perspective, just because the people still ignore the desire that people have to be the biggest star in the world and where they feel like they need to go in order to do that. But I do think that we'll likely see more of these shared equity or more of these flexible options because I feel like one of the things you highlight in the piece is that it's great that there's so many distributors and places that you can release your music, but it's still a pretty big difference where it's like, okay, you either got to give up everything, and we'll make you a superstar, or you try to do it your own. But it's still hard to get to that level without some additional support. [00:07:36] Karl Fowlkes Yeah, I think the next 10 to 20 years are going to be a very interesting time. And I don't think anything's going to be figured out in the next 10 to 20 years, just because I think there are so many different emerging business models, right? Like, I keep talking about these music tech companies, kind of coming in and offering using algorithms and, you know, formulas to sort of create an estimate on, you know, what your royalties could be, will make in the next three to four years. They'll give you a big advance, right, and now to reference beatBread, because, you know, I just saw they did that for a massive artist recently. And they're, they're not really they're not offering service or anything, we're just going to give you that funding element. And I think historically, if you look at startups, and you know, there's always been a lot of artists, our founders’ conversation in the past five years, but when you look at a lot of startups, it's really hard to scale a business without capital. So capital is always going to be sort of the driving force on any decision I think you have to make in your business journey at a certain point. So I think what will happen is labels will realize I think the all-or-nothing approach of sort of either doing a license deal or completely owning the masters isn't really probably in anyone's best interest, including theirs. And I think we'll see more shared equity, right, and more investing in artists, you know, being in business with an artist forever, like in a tasteful way, right? Like, owning 20% of somebody's master for perpetuity seems a lot better than owning 100% of someone's, you know, master in perpetuity, right. There's, there's like a natural, if you’re an artist, you might be able to live with that, hey, this person gave me a million dollars. They have different access, resources, and funding opportunities throughout and they have a history of helping artists, you know, why don't I, we can we could share this thing forever, but you know, I'll be in control. I think that makes a lot more sense. [00:09:32] Dan Runcie  Yeah. And what I think it does is it itemizes how to look at the value add that you're either getting from a record label or from another type of partner, right? Because at its core, a record label deal is very similar to a private equity model. I know a lot of people make the venture capital comparison. But I think it's a bit more like private equity or even more so an M&A deal where you are essentially selling yourself as the business, at least to the recorded music business of what you're doing, to this company. And then in return, they are paying you for the services, and they're obviously going to try to maximize it as much as they can with everything they offer, from marketing to promotion to all the other services that you can essentially get counsel advice, so on. But I think the shift and what we're seeing a lot more artists do, more so I'd say on the independent side, I think we'll see some of the bigger artists do it, too, they want to create the business, they want to be the one that is doing the actual tasks, and how can they have, you know, things set up around them in order to do that. And it's something we see with all creatives to some extent, right? I feel like some people are always going to, maybe they want to gravitate more towards the business side of things, maybe they want to gravitate more towards the art that they actually do need to make. But still, if you're going to take the business side of it, then yeah, there is likely going to be a company you go to for marketing support, there's going to be a company you go to for PR or for distribution or for those things. And if you do it that way, then you're likely going to have a better approach about how you're making deals. And I feel like this is one of the key things that, like, you and I've been talking about for years now, just in terms of like how these things get set up, and how these things should be set up, especially for the artists that are willing to put in the work. [00:11:20] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, I think what artists and their teams, too, are realizing are, you know, they're still doing a ton of work, even after they signed to the record label, right. And I think some of those things, historically, that we may be thought or attributed to regularly, but whether it's right or wrong, are things that in this generation, you know, teams, managers, other team members on that direct artists’ team are being tasked with, and, and they're executing, you know, to some extent, right? We're seeing TikTok campaigns being launched. And then that being the driving force of, of an artist being signed to a multimillion-dollar license deal, right, because that artists and their team leverage, you know, that music technology to create some moment, momentum and drive the price of that deal up. We're seeing a lot of that. So I think all that's making artists and their teams do is say, hey, if we're going to do a lot of the strategy and, and work to get signed, maybe signing doesn't necessarily make sense, maybe we're looking for, for something else, maybe it's not traditional, we signed to you model. It's like, let's partner, I need you for a few things. The rest we can take care of, we need some funding, and you know, we need some support on you know, a radio, we need some money, some of your tools that you might have and your staffing, but you know, eventually, we think we'll be able to do that stuff down the line. I think that's kind of the fut ure more and more sort of artists’ companies. And you see some of these catalogs, you're like, yeah, that's like, that's, you know, that's a mini-company. You know, I know, we talked, we saw Justin Timberlake’s catalog sold for, I believe, roughly $100 million. But you think about companies that could sell for $100 million, like, they have more than, like, two employees, where it's actually a company. Like, there's people driving marketing campaigns, there's the Human Resources Department, there's, you know, so I always think it's funny, because when you actually look at the valuation of the IP, and what something is actually making year over year, and, you know, that's like, that's a pretty sizable company, that that's probably not staffed correctly. I think that's probably what we'll see in the future is, hopefully, these companies and they can get staffed correctly. [00:13:35] Dan Runcie  And it makes you also think about, okay, let's take the Justin Timberlake example, obviously, someone that had a very successful and still has had a very successful solo career. But how much more value could there have been if he had created things in the way that, you know, we're talking about here? Obviously, there's a trade-off there, because I do think he's clearly someone that benefited more than the average person for a number of reasons from the major record label system and the broader media system that we're in. But yeah, $100 million, like, you think about a startup that is reaching $100 billion, you already have the idea of how big that startup is, what’s that startup’s trajectory looks like. And obviously, this is a little bit different because it's based on that recurring revenue stream. But still, I mean, it's huge, [00:14:22] Karl Fowlkes  Right? And I think like it's when we talk about sales and you know, when a company has to do get due diligence done on them, right so you look under the hood and you know, you're trying to see what that company actually owns. Do they even own the rights? Do they own the pub rights? Do they own the likeness? Do they own the trademarks, right? But if a company, for an artist, you know, driven company It doesn't have to be one artist. I think, you know, obviously, there's going to be a lot more collective and smarter labels, I think, in the future that are successful and, you know, running this model. But, you know, if you do due diligence on a company, and they do own all the IP, they do own all the trademarks, they do own the pub, and they do own the record, and there's employees in place, and there's procedures in place, and there's a history and books to sort of show what's happening over the past 5 to 10 years, you know, you're right, like, you know, these, these evaluations are probably being done on just raw numbers. But if you were to factor in some of this other stuff, it's like, man, this is like a, this is a well-oiled machine, this might be worth a little bit more. [00:15:22] Dan Runcie  Yeah, for sure. And I feel like once we were able to get there, a lot of it is focused on the type of deals, people can make and how specific they're getting about these. And you have been pushing and promoting this acronym about how artists, and I think this even extends beyond artists, how anyone that is creating content or making any type of deal should be looking at things. So what's the advice there that you give for that? And what are the elements to look out for? [00:15:50]  Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, yeah, you know, a strategy I've sort of been using and I created, I believe it was about a year and a half ago in talking to a few clients was, you know, length, obligation, money, and ownership. And those four key things are sort of the top line things you need to worry about when you're forming a contract. And also, I like to think about, you know, clients and people I'm talking to, when I'm discussing LOMO, just prioritizing those things, right? Because you're not going to have, you're not going to have the perfect deal where you have a short term, you get, you get a lot of money, your obligations low, and you get to own everything. That's just not, that's just not realistic. But what I do think is realistic is, you know, putting together a strategy that you can sort of, you know, put those things in order and you know, 5, 6, 7 years down the line, be happy with whatever sort of business you set up for yourself because you knew what you were getting into. You knew what your priorities were and you knew what you were signing. So I think those four top line terms: length, obligation, money, and ownership are the driving force of, they’re for sure the backbone of every contract, and for better or worse, I think those terms have decided whether an artist is going to be on Twitter in five years, talking about how they hate their contract, or they're going to be, you know, being able to sell their catalog for $50 to $100 million in 10 years, right? So I think LOMO is really important, and they'll help you sort of prioritize your needs if you are an artist. And again, that's not just for the artists, that's for the artists’ team. That's where these collectives that are coming up, I think those are probably will be the ones enforcing that strategy. But you know, LOMO is very, it's very useful, I think. [00:17:35] Dan Runcie You got LOMO trademarked? [00:17:37] Karl Fowlkes I haven't gotten LOMO trademark, man, that's crazy. Maybe after this episode. [00:17:42] Dan Runcie  I mean, I feel like you got it, I mean, because that's so many of these things, right? How do you, like, simplify things to just make it clear and take away so much of the legalese that I think is in there, and many times as a tactic itself to confuse artists? [00:18:00] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, I mean, and again, like some of the legal, you hire an attorney to do the hard legal work, right? That's like the job of, you know, when people are generally saying artists, you need to understand your deals, we're not saying you need to become an attorney overnight because you still need an attorney, you need someone who's, that's someone else's job. Your job is to sort of run your company, you know, have a little bit of insight on some of these objectives and stuff that you're building. But you should really have a key indicator of those top line terms, that's what you really need to know. You're not going to know what the indemnification clause is, or you're not going to get into the warranties and representation. That's not the best use of your time. But you should know how long the contract is. You should know how much money, how much royalty you're going to get, or how the royalties are even paid out. You should know what you're required to do. You know, all those good things are the core of a contract. And I think that artists need to focus less on some of the nitty-gritty of the contract. You're not going to read too much legalese in a contract. But you know, those four things will help you sort of, you know, understand what you're signing. [00:19:03] Dan Runcie  Yeah, I agree. And you mentioned earlier about the artists that are going to be on Twitter complaining about their deal. Is there an area of LOMO that you think they're most likely to complain about or have an issue about? [00:19:18] Karl Fowlkes  Oh, yeah, that's a really good question. I think oftentimes, it's a combination of usually two things, but I think it's the maybe the way royalties are paid out. I think once you really understand recoupment, you know, it's not like a net profit. It's not like an off top thing, and what I mean by that is, if you're recouping at the royalty rate, I mean, If you have a 20% royalty rate, you got to make five times, you know, to recoup, right, to get even, right? because, you know, you're, if a dollar of money is generated, only 20 cents of that dollar is counting toward, you know, paying back the label, right? So you got to make five, you got to make 25 times over. I think that's the part that really rubs people the wrong way, right? Just because if it was a net profit situation, or an off top, right, you know, all costs go toward recoupment,, and then you get 80. And I get 20. and still be bad, but it'd be a little better, it'd be, it'd be a little less bad. So I think it's that part of the money that really, really gets people upset, because I'm not even sure that, you know, these companies really don't have to do that. Like, that is just, and I'm not, I'm not in the business of, I don't care. Like, that's just stupid. That's a bad business model. I think that's the reason why a lot of disruptions happen, because that just so that's so one-sided. [00:20:36] Dan Runcie  Yeah, it makes me think of Meek Mill, when he had posted, at some point earlier this year, I don't know when I'm going to get paid, or I haven't gotten paid for this. And this is someone that, you know, could sell hundreds of thousands in his first week with, at least to do with Championships, or whatever the album was when he, llike, first came out of prison, but he still doesn't know, and he's also someone that runs a record label himself, or he has the joint venture with Roc Nation for his Dream Chasers. So it's like, even at that level, artists still don't know. [00:21:08] Karl Fowlkes Yeah, I mean, Benny The Butcher, definitely a favorite rapper of mine. But you know, I was listening to a Freestyle yesterday, he did, I think, with Charlie Sloth on London. And he said, these rappers, you know, they're doing 100k first week, but you know, he's still not recouped. And I always, that is interesting, right? Because, you know, we all care about these sorts of, these first week numbers, but, you know, how much money is it taking to get to those first week numbers? And, you know, still, you're still probably in a hole, depending on the advances you've got. Advances are good, but it's also a way for you to continue to be locked in that contract, right? Would you rather. have some people want that $5 million check. But you know, you lose leverage me the more money you take. That's just the reality of it. [00:21:56] Dan Runcie  Right. Yeah. I, I think that Benny, of course. And I think Griselda overall, they figured it out in a model that actually works for them. And I think Russ probably falls in this category as well, where it's like, okay, you know, we don't care about the first week numbers. We actually want to have a business that runs, right? So Griselda could sell $75 or $100 vinyls or, you know, butcher cleaves, or whatever it is, in order to, you know, have, like, high-end merch that people are going to want to buy. And I think for a lot of artists, yeah, there is at least a bit of a trade-off to some extent, like, do you care more about the revenue? Or do you care more about the fame and the accolades and the media and stuff? And I don't think that's as black and white for most artists as they think it is. [00:22:42] Karl Fowlkes   Yeah, because like, the real metrics that people should care about, you know, we're not in this all for money, but I think money and ownership, if you have those things, and you're building a model that sort of is conducive, and not just because you're doing shows all the time, like, you know, I'm not sure Russ passed pop out ar nightclubs, you know, just to pay his bills, I know for a fact he doesn't have to do that, right. And that sort of the flexibility and freedom that I think guys really want when they hop into the rap game. They want to be able to, you know, sit down sit by the Dame Dash Calls it that “by the pool money,” right? You know, I want to be able to put my feet up by the pool, have their residual income coming in, and you know, and really be a boss really be a CEO not have to perform in Shreveport, Louisiana, you know, at a nightclub to pay my bills because I'm not getting any money from my music. Streaming is not the best model yet, from a payout standpoint, but because of how often and consistently people are streaming music, it's still an effective way for you to get money, right? So I think, when Russ posts TuneCore statements, you know, that is, obviously not everyone's going to have that sort of consistency and hard work. But you know, a lot of that's real, I mean, if you have five, I always talk about that, that hip-hop, middle class that needs to emerge, and you need to be happy and we need to celebrate those people. And because if you're making $20,000 or $30,000 a month of music, damn, I mean you could talk, you know, that's solid money. No, that's nothing to shirk off. And some of these people, if they were independent, they might not be the global superstars that they are, they might be a little bit more in control, they might have less obligations, and they might still be able to put out the music that they want to put out. And all that stuff sort of creates sort of a concoction of, man, and maybe I will be happier, maybe I wouldn't have to get fake teeth and get a bunch of gold chains. I wouldn't have to do that because I'm living a lifestyle that's conducive for long-term success.  So I think that I think that's really important, too. I mean, that's, that's kind of where I am. And that's not the sort of education that I'm putting out. [00:24:47] Dan Runcie And I feel like that's also how you're building the businesses that you have and what you're associated with, right? I look at what you and Vic and the team are building, with Blxst as well, and what you're building with Evgle, and I feel like this is exactly that. Like, you're building the company that structured around this. Can you talk a bit about how you all have things set up? [00:25:08] Karl Fowlkes Yeah, so Evgle is a company that I am an equity partner in. It's me, Victor Burnett, who was the president and is also Blxst’s manager. And then you obviously have Blxst, who is the key cog, the creative genius, and really someone who's sort of, you know, been patient, and made this all possible. But, you know, the way we're set up is, you know, we were, we're a company, privately-owned, and we've been able to partner with entities in, you know, retain 100% ownership of IP, make sure we're getting, you know, some of that mail, that by the pool money at all times, and in putting ourselves in a position for us to, you know, not just build vertically, but horizontally. We're building out, you know, we have a full staff, you know, we have health care for everybody. We have office space, all those, all that fun stuff, that I think that, you know, isn't probably celebrated enough in building a company and particularly in hip-hop. So that's kind of how we're building. And I think long term,  we're empowering our artists and the people that come next, to do the same thing. It's not going to be, hey, you signed with Evgle, or we're taking your masters, and you're taking ownership and control of everything. That's, that's just not what we're doing. And, you know, I think Vic and Blxst in particular, are very, very cognizant of that. And so I think, I think we're trying to lead the way in that regard. [00:26:34] Dan Runcie  So is the plan to continue to build the company solely around the brand of Blxst himself as the creative or do you also want to bring on other artists, too? [00:26:46] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, so we already signed another I’ll call a multi-hyphenate, you know talent as well. He's an artist and producer. So we'll be rolling him out sometime later this summer, maybe early fall, then we have another producer signed on or partnered on, sometimes I use old terms, but partnered on the publishing side. So there are two other creatives already, you know, in-house, and I think the goal will be to get bigger, you know, as time goes by [00:27:14] Dan Runcie  And then in terms of Blxst specifically, what does his relationships look like with the major record label system and being able to amplify the work that he does? [00:27:25] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. You know, we obviously have a public relationship with Red Bull Records, who's our partner on the record side, and it's been a super fruitful partnership. You know, Blxst has, you know, elevated his career. They've been really helpful in allowing Evgle to stay, you know, 100% independent, and building what we built. So, kudos to Red Bull. And those guys over there, in Red Bull’s distributor, is The Orchard. So we do have a, I guess, major label tie, righ?. So you know, but that's really kind of, you know, I think all three of us, you know, Blxst is a multi-hyphenate to the truest extent ever, you know, he's, he can edit his own videos, he does his design work, he can produce his songs, he engineers it. You know, Vic, similar type of talent, you know,  he's, you know, he's, he's a merch guru, you know, great leader, great manager. And same with myself, obviously, I'm a lawyer, but, you know, as an operator, and someone who builds businesses on the sort of technical and admin side, you know, I love that part. So we're talking about three people who are multi-hyphenates. I think when you have people like that, you don't have to outsource as much throughout the different phases of growth. And we've been able to resist some of the pitfalls that other companies have had to go through because we've been able to scale to  2x to 5x by doing a lot of stuff in-house and I think I don't think that's going to change. And you know, our growth has been incremental and positive, you know, year after year and I think that's because we're taking the steps and we're not trying to build something really quickly. [00:29:11] Dan Runcie  Yeah, you're trying to build for the long haul, right? And if Blxst’s someday going to have his triple-figure catalog sale, if he want ever wants that, that's going to be done by, you know, building step by step. You're building for the long term, even though I'm sure, right now, especially after the Kendrick feature, and he's just been blowing up especially I feel like for the past two years now, but I feel like especially the past, like, 12, 18 months, you've been seeing more and more, at least publicly, I feel like, it may seem like it, you know, things are going fast, but I feel like, you know, talking to you all, yeah, you know, this is a long game. [00:29:46] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, it's a long game. And you also know, like, you know, behind the scenes, we've been aggressive, in know, diversifying our company profile and our portfolio and what we're trying to build, you know, outside of music. You know, I think all of us also realize the entertainment industry is also just a vehicle, to impact the world. So, you know, at some point, your vehicles change. And I think we're also we also realize that, you know, everything that we're building today, you know, has to be bigger than, bigger than just the industry that we that we exist in. That's just not, it wouldn't be fulfilling for for any of us. So, I think that's it, we're very cognizant of that. [00:30:23] Dan Runcie  That makes sense. That makes sense. Good stuff, man. I am excited to see not just more change in the industry, but obviously, I think you wrote this piece for a really timely reason. And we're gonna continue to see the impact of that. So yeah, if you're listening, definitely go check out The Future of the Artist Deal. It's up now on the Trapital website. And Karl, before we let you go, anything else that you want to plug? Or let the listeners know about now?   [00:30:50] Karl Fowlkes No, man. I mean, honestly, just keep your eyes out for everything we're doing at Evgle, I think there's going to be a lot of fun, disruptive stuff that we announced, and we do over the next couple of months to a year. And, you know, personally, you know, The Fowlkes Firm is growing as a disruptor in the law firm space. So, you know, look out for those two things. And, you know, I just challenge everyone to challenge the status quo. You know, that's, that's what we're all here for. [00:31:17] Dan Runcie That's the only way the industry grows, right?  [00:31:19] Karl Fowlkes Yeah. [00:31:19] Dan Runcie  Exactly. I appreciate you, man. Thank you. [00:31:22] Karl Fowlkes All right. [00:31:24] Dan Runcie  If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.   This week’s special guest on Trapital is entertainment lawyer Karl Fowlkes. As part of his own The Fowlkes Firm, Karl represents entertainers across many domains — from music to sports to media, including hip-hop’s rising star, Blxst. He pulled double duty, not only appearing on the podcast, but guest-writing for the newsletter about the need for the artist contract to evolve.


In particular, Karl predicts shared equity between not only artists and record labels, but also with other parties like distributors or fintech companies. The days of record labels having 100-percent ownership of an artists’ masters could slowly be phased out over the next decade in favor of a split much more friendly toward the artist.


Karl also has advice for an artist, or any content creator for that matter, signing a new contract — LOMO. The acronym stands for length, obligation, money, and ownership. These are the top-line items creators should prioritize when inking deals, according to Karl. 


Karl has a ton more insights into how artists and creators can maximize their long term value, plus how deals will change in the near and distant future. Here’s everything we covered during our interview:


[4:13] The Future Of The Artist Deal

[5:50] Changes With Major Record Labels

[7:36] Will Record Labels Exist In 10-20 Years?

[11:20] Artists Wanting A Partnership, Not Signing 

[15:50] Karl’s Advice To All Content Creators Signing Contracts

[19:18] The Issue With Music Royalties

[22:42] The Hip-Hop “Middle Class”

[24:47] Building EVGLE Brand Alongside Blxst

[25:08] Blxst Partnership Status With “Major” Labels




Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Karl Fowlkes, @esqfowlkes, Fowlkes Firm


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Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 


TRANSCRIPTION


[00:00:00] Karl Fowlkes If you're making $20,000 to $30,000 a month off music. I mean, damn, that’s pretty, you know, that's solid money. No, that's nothing to shirk off. And some of these people, if they were independent, they might not be the global superstars that they are, they might be a little bit more in control, they might have less obligations, and they might still be able to put out the music that they want to put out. And all that stuff sort of creates sort of a concoction of, man, and maybe I will be happier, maybe I wouldn't have to get fake teeth, get a bunch of gold chains. I wouldn't have to do that because I'm living a lifestyle that's conducive for long-term success. 


[00:00:38]  Dan Runcie Hey, welcome to The Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 


[00:00:58] Dan Runcie Today's episode is all about the deals that artists sign. There are so many more options and ways that artists can level up and types of companies that they can partner with. It's no longer just the record labels. There's alternative finance options, their distribution platforms, and more. And I broke this down today with my friend and well-respected entertainment attorney, Karl Fowlkes. And he runs an entertainment practice called The Fowlkes Firm where he represents artists like Blxst, producers, entertainers, athletes, and more. 


[00:01:30]  Dan Runcie So I talked to Karl about his experience with this and what he sees as the future landscape. And Karl has this phrase that I think he needs to trademark, he has this phrase called LOMO, which is focused on the four key elements that artists should be focusing on when they're signing deals. The important thing about LOMO. And more broadly, this conversation is that this doesn't just apply to artists, look at all the different types of creators right now. There's so many deals that they're doing, there's so many opportunities from different companies that want to partner with them. And whenever those things happen, there are more and more contracts that aren't always set up in the easiest way for you to be able to understand and break this down. So we talked about that and where things are heading and how it really is shifting to a place where artists aren't just giving the keys to a big corporation to handle everything. Let's have them, build the businesses around themselves, partner with the different companies to fill in the different roles you need, and build up from there. This was a great conversation. I think it's really insightful for all the creators out there. So I hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Karl Fowlkes. All right, today, we got Karl Fowlkes with us who's back on the podcast from The Fowlkes Firm, you represent Blxst and a bunch of other artists. But we're here to talk about this guest piece that you wrote for Trapital, a really great piece about the future of the artists deal. So let's start at the top. Why did you want to write this piece?


[00:02:56] Karl Fowlkes  I think right now, you know, historically, there's, there's been a few players. And those few players are really just record labels. So it kind of pigeonholes what the what the deal is going to look like, you know, now, there's so many different players out there. Technologies is infused all through the music industry. So there's, you know, there's distributors, there's advanced companies, right, they're just trying to like, you know, model what they can give you based on streaming algorithms, you know, companies like beatBread, for example. And then you still got those major labels, they're sort of offering a lot of those services. So the landscape is so different, I think, because there's so many different parties and so many different solutions. I think the deal has to change with the times that we're in. And oftentimes, you know, what I'm seeing, you know, I'm not seeing, you know, those changed deal terms. And, you know, I just think it's something that we need to get ahead of.


[00:03:48] Dan Runcie  Yeah. And I feel like now you're hearing more than ever, people talk about ownership artists, whether or not they may have enough behind it, want to make sure that they're owning everything when they're coming to try to negotiate contracts. Do you feel like that's shifted the landscape? I mean, I feel like it's definitely improved the conversation around it, but do you feel like that's actually having an impact on the deals that are being made?


[00:04:13] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, and it's been quite effective. You know, I think most people who are in my position, you know, doing deals on the attorney side are seeing contracts that, especially if there's any built-up leverage that almost exclusively, you know, have a license period, right? So instead of the full transfer of ownership or work-for-hire language I've seen in the past, I'm seeing a lot more 20-year licenses, 25-year licenses, 15-year licenses. So the artist is you know, almost exclusively, you want to get the masters back. Now some of the other top line terms might not be that different in terms of the royalty rate, or some, you know, the ancillary income. But you know, the ownership paradigm is definitely, definitely changing. And I think that's the unique thing about it today.


[00:04:59] Dan Runcie  Yeah, because I feel like, especially with the major record labels is kind of two things happening, right? On one hand, you're streaming revenues are continuing to grow. And you have all these other revenue sources from outside of the digital streaming providers, whether that's with Peloton or Roblox and all these other partners that want a license deal. So while that's increasing, but on the other hand, more and more artists are not going to want to  just give up their masters in perpetuity. So the labels are also counteracting that piece of it. So I see them in a lot of ways, they're hoping that the revenue from all of these areas can offset the loss that's eventually going to come from the masters, because eventually you can earn money from the back catalog forever if the current artists are going to keep that back catalog, and the labels aren't going to be able to have it.


[00:05:50] Karl Fowlkes  3,000%. So I think, I almost wonder why some of the record labels out there don't sort of take from their publishing counterparts, right? Because the co-pub deal is sort of set up as a joint ownership structure, 50-50, right? So the songwriter usually owns half the composition, and the publisher owns the other half of the composition. And, you know, when the term is up, the kind of, the songwriter can go do what they want with their 50%. And they can have, you know, whoever collects on it, and then you know, the record label can, sorry, the publisher can take their 50% and go collect on it as well. So it's a shared equity model. It's something that I think tends to work for better parties. I know, there's some mechanisms that are a little bit different, you know, as it relates to distribution of music versus collection of music. But I think that's sort of a precursor to, you know, maybe something we'll see, you know, happen over the next 10 to 20 years.


[00:06:46] Dan Runcie  What do you think the next 10 to 20 years will look like? Because I often have this conversation with a lot of people, some people go to the extreme of being like, no record labels will be extinct by then. And I've never quite gotten to that perspective, just because the people still ignore the desire that people have to be the biggest star in the world and where they feel like they need to go in order to do that. But I do think that we'll likely see more of these shared equity or more of these flexible options because I feel like one of the things you highlight in the piece is that it's great that there's so many distributors and places that you can release your music, but it's still a pretty big difference where it's like, okay, you either got to give up everything, and we'll make you a superstar, or you try to do it your own. But it's still hard to get to that level without some additional support.


[00:07:36] Karl Fowlkes Yeah, I think the next 10 to 20 years are going to be a very interesting time. And I don't think anything's going to be figured out in the next 10 to 20 years, just because I think there are so many different emerging business models, right? Like, I keep talking about these music tech companies, kind of coming in and offering using algorithms and, you know, formulas to sort of create an estimate on, you know, what your royalties could be, will make in the next three to four years. They'll give you a big advance, right, and now to reference beatBread, because, you know, I just saw they did that for a massive artist recently. And they're, they're not really they're not offering service or anything, we're just going to give you that funding element. And I think historically, if you look at startups, and you know, there's always been a lot of artists, our founders’ conversation in the past five years, but when you look at a lot of startups, it's really hard to scale a business without capital. So capital is always going to be sort of the driving force on any decision I think you have to make in your business journey at a certain point. So I think what will happen is labels will realize I think the all-or-nothing approach of sort of either doing a license deal or completely owning the masters isn't really probably in anyone's best interest, including theirs. And I think we'll see more shared equity, right, and more investing in artists, you know, being in business with an artist forever, like in a tasteful way, right? Like, owning 20% of somebody's master for perpetuity seems a lot better than owning 100% of someone's, you know, master in perpetuity, right. There's, there's like a natural, if you’re an artist, you might be able to live with that, hey, this person gave me a million dollars. They have different access, resources, and funding opportunities throughout and they have a history of helping artists, you know, why don't I, we can we could share this thing forever, but you know, I'll be in control. I think that makes a lot more sense.


[00:09:32] Dan Runcie  Yeah. And what I think it does is it itemizes how to look at the value add that you're either getting from a record label or from another type of partner, right? Because at its core, a record label deal is very similar to a private equity model. I know a lot of people make the venture capital comparison. But I think it's a bit more like private equity or even more so an M&A deal where you are essentially selling yourself as the business, at least to the recorded music business of what you're doing, to this company. And then in return, they are paying you for the services, and they're obviously going to try to maximize it as much as they can with everything they offer, from marketing to promotion to all the other services that you can essentially get counsel advice, so on. But I think the shift and what we're seeing a lot more artists do, more so I'd say on the independent side, I think we'll see some of the bigger artists do it, too, they want to create the business, they want to be the one that is doing the actual tasks, and how can they have, you know, things set up around them in order to do that. And it's something we see with all creatives to some extent, right? I feel like some people are always going to, maybe they want to gravitate more towards the business side of things, maybe they want to gravitate more towards the art that they actually do need to make. But still, if you're going to take the business side of it, then yeah, there is likely going to be a company you go to for marketing support, there's going to be a company you go to for PR or for distribution or for those things. And if you do it that way, then you're likely going to have a better approach about how you're making deals. And I feel like this is one of the key things that, like, you and I've been talking about for years now, just in terms of like how these things get set up, and how these things should be set up, especially for the artists that are willing to put in the work.


[00:11:20] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, I think what artists and their teams, too, are realizing are, you know, they're still doing a ton of work, even after they signed to the record label, right. And I think some of those things, historically, that we may be thought or attributed to regularly, but whether it's right or wrong, are things that in this generation, you know, teams, managers, other team members on that direct artists’ team are being tasked with, and, and they're executing, you know, to some extent, right? We're seeing TikTok campaigns being launched. And then that being the driving force of, of an artist being signed to a multimillion-dollar license deal, right, because that artists and their team leverage, you know, that music technology to create some moment, momentum and drive the price of that deal up. We're seeing a lot of that. So I think all that's making artists and their teams do is say, hey, if we're going to do a lot of the strategy and, and work to get signed, maybe signing doesn't necessarily make sense, maybe we're looking for, for something else, maybe it's not traditional, we signed to you model. It's like, let's partner, I need you for a few things. The rest we can take care of, we need some funding, and you know, we need some support on you know, a radio, we need some money, some of your tools that you might have and your staffing, but you know, eventually, we think we'll be able to do that stuff down the line. I think that's kind of the fut ure more and more sort of artists’ companies. And you see some of these catalogs, you're like, yeah, that's like, that's, you know, that's a mini-company. You know, I know, we talked, we saw Justin Timberlake’s catalog sold for, I believe, roughly $100 million. But you think about companies that could sell for $100 million, like, they have more than, like, two employees, where it's actually a company. Like, there's people driving marketing campaigns, there's the Human Resources Department, there's, you know, so I always think it's funny, because when you actually look at the valuation of the IP, and what something is actually making year over year, and, you know, that's like, that's a pretty sizable company, that that's probably not staffed correctly. I think that's probably what we'll see in the future is, hopefully, these companies and they can get staffed correctly.


[00:13:35] Dan Runcie  And it makes you also think about, okay, let's take the Justin Timberlake example, obviously, someone that had a very successful and still has had a very successful solo career. But how much more value could there have been if he had created things in the way that, you know, we're talking about here? Obviously, there's a trade-off there, because I do think he's clearly someone that benefited more than the average person for a number of reasons from the major record label system and the broader media system that we're in. But yeah, $100 million, like, you think about a startup that is reaching $100 billion, you already have the idea of how big that startup is, what’s that startup’s trajectory looks like. And obviously, this is a little bit different because it's based on that recurring revenue stream. But still, I mean, it's huge,


[00:14:22] Karl Fowlkes  Right? And I think like it's when we talk about sales and you know, when a company has to do get due diligence done on them, right so you look under the hood and you know, you're trying to see what that company actually owns. Do they even own the rights? Do they own the pub rights? Do they own the likeness? Do they own the trademarks, right? But if a company, for an artist, you know, driven company It doesn't have to be one artist. I think, you know, obviously, there's going to be a lot more collective and smarter labels, I think, in the future that are successful and, you know, running this model. But, you know, if you do due diligence on a company, and they do own all the IP, they do own all the trademarks, they do own the pub, and they do own the record, and there's employees in place, and there's procedures in place, and there's a history and books to sort of show what's happening over the past 5 to 10 years, you know, you're right, like, you know, these, these evaluations are probably being done on just raw numbers. But if you were to factor in some of this other stuff, it's like, man, this is like a, this is a well-oiled machine, this might be worth a little bit more.


[00:15:22] Dan Runcie  Yeah, for sure. And I feel like once we were able to get there, a lot of it is focused on the type of deals, people can make and how specific they're getting about these. And you have been pushing and promoting this acronym about how artists, and I think this even extends beyond artists, how anyone that is creating content or making any type of deal should be looking at things. So what's the advice there that you give for that? And what are the elements to look out for?


[00:15:50]  Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, yeah, you know, a strategy I've sort of been using and I created, I believe it was about a year and a half ago in talking to a few clients was, you know, length, obligation, money, and ownership. And those four key things are sort of the top line things you need to worry about when you're forming a contract. And also, I like to think about, you know, clients and people I'm talking to, when I'm discussing LOMO, just prioritizing those things, right? Because you're not going to have, you're not going to have the perfect deal where you have a short term, you get, you get a lot of money, your obligations low, and you get to own everything. That's just not, that's just not realistic. But what I do think is realistic is, you know, putting together a strategy that you can sort of, you know, put those things in order and you know, 5, 6, 7 years down the line, be happy with whatever sort of business you set up for yourself because you knew what you were getting into. You knew what your priorities were and you knew what you were signing. So I think those four top line terms: length, obligation, money, and ownership are the driving force of, they’re for sure the backbone of every contract, and for better or worse, I think those terms have decided whether an artist is going to be on Twitter in five years, talking about how they hate their contract, or they're going to be, you know, being able to sell their catalog for $50 to $100 million in 10 years, right? So I think LOMO is really important, and they'll help you sort of prioritize your needs if you are an artist. And again, that's not just for the artists, that's for the artists’ team. That's where these collectives that are coming up, I think those are probably will be the ones enforcing that strategy. But you know, LOMO is very, it's very useful, I think.


[00:17:35] Dan Runcie You got LOMO trademarked?


[00:17:37] Karl Fowlkes I haven't gotten LOMO trademark, man, that's crazy. Maybe after this episode.


[00:17:42] Dan Runcie  I mean, I feel like you got it, I mean, because that's so many of these things, right? How do you, like, simplify things to just make it clear and take away so much of the legalese that I think is in there, and many times as a tactic itself to confuse artists?


[00:18:00] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, I mean, and again, like some of the legal, you hire an attorney to do the hard legal work, right? That's like the job of, you know, when people are generally saying artists, you need to understand your deals, we're not saying you need to become an attorney overnight because you still need an attorney, you need someone who's, that's someone else's job. Your job is to sort of run your company, you know, have a little bit of insight on some of these objectives and stuff that you're building. But you should really have a key indicator of those top line terms, that's what you really need to know. You're not going to know what the indemnification clause is, or you're not going to get into the warranties and representation. That's not the best use of your time. But you should know how long the contract is. You should know how much money, how much royalty you're going to get, or how the royalties are even paid out. You should know what you're required to do. You know, all those good things are the core of a contract. And I think that artists need to focus less on some of the nitty-gritty of the contract. You're not going to read too much legalese in a contract. But you know, those four things will help you sort of, you know, understand what you're signing.


[00:19:03] Dan Runcie  Yeah, I agree. And you mentioned earlier about the artists that are going to be on Twitter complaining about their deal. Is there an area of LOMO that you think they're most likely to complain about or have an issue about?


[00:19:18] Karl Fowlkes  Oh, yeah, that's a really good question. I think oftentimes, it's a combination of usually two things, but I think it's the maybe the way royalties are paid out. I think once you really understand recoupment, you know, it's not like a net profit. It's not like an off top thing, and what I mean by that is, if you're recouping at the royalty rate, I mean, If you have a 20% royalty rate, you got to make five times, you know, to recoup, right, to get even, right? because, you know, you're, if a dollar of money is generated, only 20 cents of that dollar is counting toward, you know, paying back the label, right? So you got to make five, you got to make 25 times over. I think that's the part that really rubs people the wrong way, right? Just because if it was a net profit situation, or an off top, right, you know, all costs go toward recoupment,, and then you get 80. And I get 20. and still be bad, but it'd be a little better, it'd be, it'd be a little less bad. So I think it's that part of the money that really, really gets people upset, because I'm not even sure that, you know, these companies really don't have to do that. Like, that is just, and I'm not, I'm not in the business of, I don't care. Like, that's just stupid. That's a bad business model. I think that's the reason why a lot of disruptions happen, because that just so that's so one-sided.


[00:20:36] Dan Runcie  Yeah, it makes me think of Meek Mill, when he had posted, at some point earlier this year, I don't know when I'm going to get paid, or I haven't gotten paid for this. And this is someone that, you know, could sell hundreds of thousands in his first week with, at least to do with Championships, or whatever the album was when he, llike, first came out of prison, but he still doesn't know, and he's also someone that runs a record label himself, or he has the joint venture with Roc Nation for his Dream Chasers. So it's like, even at that level, artists still don't know.


[00:21:08] Karl Fowlkes Yeah, I mean, Benny The Butcher, definitely a favorite rapper of mine. But you know, I was listening to a Freestyle yesterday, he did, I think, with Charlie Sloth on London. And he said, these rappers, you know, they're doing 100k first week, but you know, he's still not recouped. And I always, that is interesting, right? Because, you know, we all care about these sorts of, these first week numbers, but, you know, how much money is it taking to get to those first week numbers? And, you know, still, you're still probably in a hole, depending on the advances you've got. Advances are good, but it's also a way for you to continue to be locked in that contract, right? Would you rather. have some people want that $5 million check. But you know, you lose leverage me the more money you take. That's just the reality of it.


[00:21:56] Dan Runcie  Right. Yeah. I, I think that Benny, of course. And I think Griselda overall, they figured it out in a model that actually works for them. And I think Russ probably falls in this category as well, where it's like, okay, you know, we don't care about the first week numbers. We actually want to have a business that runs, right? So Griselda could sell $75 or $100 vinyls or, you know, butcher cleaves, or whatever it is, in order to, you know, have, like, high-end merch that people are going to want to buy. And I think for a lot of artists, yeah, there is at least a bit of a trade-off to some extent, like, do you care more about the revenue? Or do you care more about the fame and the accolades and the media and stuff? And I don't think that's as black and white for most artists as they think it is.


[00:22:42] Karl Fowlkes   Yeah, because like, the real metrics that people should care about, you know, we're not in this all for money, but I think money and ownership, if you have those things, and you're building a model that sort of is conducive, and not just because you're doing shows all the time, like, you know, I'm not sure Russ passed pop out ar nightclubs, you know, just to pay his bills, I know for a fact he doesn't have to do that, right. And that sort of the flexibility and freedom that I think guys really want when they hop into the rap game. They want to be able to, you know, sit down sit by the Dame Dash Calls it that “by the pool money,” right? You know, I want to be able to put my feet up by the pool, have their residual income coming in, and you know, and really be a boss really be a CEO not have to perform in Shreveport, Louisiana, you know, at a nightclub to pay my bills because I'm not getting any money from my music. Streaming is not the best model yet, from a payout standpoint, but because of how often and consistently people are streaming music, it's still an effective way for you to get money, right? So I think, when Russ posts TuneCore statements, you know, that is, obviously not everyone's going to have that sort of consistency and hard work. But you know, a lot of that's real, I mean, if you have five, I always talk about that, that hip-hop, middle class that needs to emerge, and you need to be happy and we need to celebrate those people. And because if you're making $20,000 or $30,000 a month of music, damn, I mean you could talk, you know, that's solid money. No, that's nothing to shirk off. And some of these people, if they were independent, they might not be the global superstars that they are, they might be a little bit more in control, they might have less obligations, and they might still be able to put out the music that they want to put out. And all that stuff sort of creates sort of a concoction of, man, and maybe I will be happier, maybe I wouldn't have to get fake teeth and get a bunch of gold chains. I wouldn't have to do that because I'm living a lifestyle that's conducive for long-term success. 

So I think that I think that's really important, too. I mean, that's, that's kind of where I am. And that's not the sort of education that I'm putting out.


[00:24:47] Dan Runcie And I feel like that's also how you're building the businesses that you have and what you're associated with, right? I look at what you and Vic and the team are building, with Blxst as well, and what you're building with Evgle, and I feel like this is exactly that. Like, you're building the company that structured around this. Can you talk a bit about how you all have things set up?


[00:25:08] Karl Fowlkes Yeah, so Evgle is a company that I am an equity partner in. It's me, Victor Burnett, who was the president and is also Blxst’s manager. And then you obviously have Blxst, who is the key cog, the creative genius, and really someone who's sort of, you know, been patient, and made this all possible. But, you know, the way we're set up is, you know, we were, we're a company, privately-owned, and we've been able to partner with entities in, you know, retain 100% ownership of IP, make sure we're getting, you know, some of that mail, that by the pool money at all times, and in putting ourselves in a position for us to, you know, not just build vertically, but horizontally. We're building out, you know, we have a full staff, you know, we have health care for everybody. We have office space, all those, all that fun stuff, that I think that, you know, isn't probably celebrated enough in building a company and particularly in hip-hop. So that's kind of how we're building. And I think long term,  we're empowering our artists and the people that come next, to do the same thing. It's not going to be, hey, you signed with Evgle, or we're taking your masters, and you're taking ownership and control of everything. That's, that's just not what we're doing. And, you know, I think Vic and Blxst in particular, are very, very cognizant of that. And so I think, I think we're trying to lead the way in that regard.


[00:26:34] Dan Runcie  So is the plan to continue to build the company solely around the brand of Blxst himself as the creative or do you also want to bring on other artists, too?


[00:26:46] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, so we already signed another I’ll call a multi-hyphenate, you know talent as well. He's an artist and producer. So we'll be rolling him out sometime later this summer, maybe early fall, then we have another producer signed on or partnered on, sometimes I use old terms, but partnered on the publishing side. So there are two other creatives already, you know, in-house, and I think the goal will be to get bigger, you know, as time goes by


[00:27:14] Dan Runcie  And then in terms of Blxst specifically, what does his relationships look like with the major record label system and being able to amplify the work that he does?


[00:27:25] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. You know, we obviously have a public relationship with Red Bull Records, who's our partner on the record side, and it's been a super fruitful partnership. You know, Blxst has, you know, elevated his career. They've been really helpful in allowing Evgle to stay, you know, 100% independent, and building what we built. So, kudos to Red Bull. And those guys over there, in Red Bull’s distributor, is The Orchard. So we do have a, I guess, major label tie, righ?. So you know, but that's really kind of, you know, I think all three of us, you know, Blxst is a multi-hyphenate to the truest extent ever, you know, he's, he can edit his own videos, he does his design work, he can produce his songs, he engineers it. You know, Vic, similar type of talent, you know,  he's, you know, he's, he's a merch guru, you know, great leader, great manager. And same with myself, obviously, I'm a lawyer, but, you know, as an operator, and someone who builds businesses on the sort of technical and admin side, you know, I love that part. So we're talking about three people who are multi-hyphenates. I think when you have people like that, you don't have to outsource as much throughout the different phases of growth. And we've been able to resist some of the pitfalls that other companies have had to go through because we've been able to scale to  2x to 5x by doing a lot of stuff in-house and I think I don't think that's going to change. And you know, our growth has been incremental and positive, you know, year after year and I think that's because we're taking the steps and we're not trying to build something really quickly.


[00:29:11] Dan Runcie  Yeah, you're trying to build for the long haul, right? And if Blxst’s someday going to have his triple-figure catalog sale, if he want ever wants that, that's going to be done by, you know, building step by step. You're building for the long term, even though I'm sure, right now, especially after the Kendrick feature, and he's just been blowing up especially I feel like for the past two years now, but I feel like especially the past, like, 12, 18 months, you've been seeing more and more, at least publicly, I feel like, it may seem like it, you know, things are going fast, but I feel like, you know, talking to you all, yeah, you know, this is a long game.


[00:29:46] Karl Fowlkes  Yeah, it's a long game. And you also know, like, you know, behind the scenes, we've been aggressive, in know, diversifying our company profile and our portfolio and what we're trying to build, you know, outside of music. You know, I think all of us also realize the entertainment industry is also just a vehicle, to impact the world. So, you know, at some point, your vehicles change. And I think we're also we also realize that, you know, everything that we're building today, you know, has to be bigger than, bigger than just the industry that we that we exist in. That's just not, it wouldn't be fulfilling for for any of us. So, I think that's it, we're very cognizant of that.


[00:30:23] Dan Runcie  That makes sense. That makes sense. Good stuff, man. I am excited to see not just more change in the industry, but obviously, I think you wrote this piece for a really timely reason. And we're gonna continue to see the impact of that. So yeah, if you're listening, definitely go check out The Future of the Artist Deal. It's up now on the Trapital website. And Karl, before we let you go, anything else that you want to plug? Or let the listeners know about now?  


[00:30:50] Karl Fowlkes No, man. I mean, honestly, just keep your eyes out for everything we're doing at Evgle, I think there's going to be a lot of fun, disruptive stuff that we announced, and we do over the next couple of months to a year. And, you know, personally, you know, The Fowlkes Firm is growing as a disruptor in the law firm space. So, you know, look out for those two things. And, you know, I just challenge everyone to challenge the status quo. You know, that's, that's what we're all here for.


[00:31:17] Dan Runcie That's the only way the industry grows, right? 


[00:31:19] Karl Fowlkes Yeah.


[00:31:19] Dan Runcie  Exactly. I appreciate you, man. Thank you.


[00:31:22] Karl Fowlkes All right.


[00:31:24] Dan Runcie  If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.


 


]]> 1919 no Improving The Artist-Fan Relationship https://www.trapital.com/podcast There’s never been more ways for artists to tap directly into their fan bases than present day. However, actually understanding those same audiences hasn’t scaled at the same rate with the times. My guest on Trapital this week, Denisha Kuhlor, is out to solve that pain point with her new music tech startup, Stan. Denisha’s company wants to take a more scientific approach to understanding and growing an artist's fanbase — from the casuals to the “stans.” Strengthening the artist-fan relationship will create better fan experiences, or as Denisha calls them, “moments of magic.”  One way to create that magic is through live performance, but not necessarily at music festivals, argues Denisha. She thinks artists are mistakenly prioritizing quantitative metrics (attendance and performance-fee sizes) rather than the qualitative. While this might provide a short-term boost, it hurts in the long term since artists aren’t connecting with the “stans” that are paying to see them and them only.    Denisha has observed this effect among Africa-based artists. The continent has produced a number of new stars, who generally “cut their teeth” performing at smaller, but more intimate venues like a club or even a wedding. Denisha has more insights into the rise of Africa’s music scene, the state of touring, and more. Here’s all our talking points in this episode: [2:44] The Downside Of Performing At Music Festivals [8:52] Followers Aren’t Your Fans [12:51] African Artists Model The Way For Growing A Fanbase [14:11] Benefits Of Instant Feedback Loops When Performing [16:47] Cardi B’s Unique Approach To Touring [21:28] Deeper Message In Kendrick Lamar’s Partnership With Cash App  [26:52] What’s The Future Of African Music? [28:07] TikTok’s Influence In Africa’s Music Scene [31:42] Differences Between Performing In US Vs. Africa  [33:55] 'Elasticity” Of An Artist Like Future [38:41] Denisha’s Start-Up Stan Is Reimagining Fan-Artist Relationship [40:19] How An Artist Can Leverage Stan Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Transcription [00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: I really think that music coming out of the continent in a lot of ways, it really does like describe like the tastemaker culture. I always hear the songs first in Ghana. I learned about I'm A Piano in Ghana, even Peru, I was in Ghana back in August. And that's when I first heard the song. Like, I think because of the just diaspora nature, right? So people like myself or other first or second-gen folks going home and saying like, oh, wow, like this is the next big thing out here and kind of taking it back allows for that to happen.  [00:00:31] Dan Runcie:  Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:58] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is all about fans, specifically as it relates to music festivals because the people that see you perform at music festivals are not necessarily the same people that see you perform when you're on a tour. And on this episode, I was joined by Denisha Kuhlor, who is the founder and CEO of Stan, a company that focuses specifically on helping artists make better decisions based on their fan engagement. [00:01:24] Dan Runcie: And we talked all about what it's like for artists that focus on music festivals and while music festivals can be a great way to reach new people and a great way to get a good check, especially if you're a headliner performing at one of the big ones, it doesn't replace the things that don't scale and doing the hard work of building a fan base, and going out there, and meeting the people that actually want to see your music and see you in person. [00:01:50] Dan Runcie: So we talk about that. We talk about some of the current trends in the trade-offs and what Denisha is currently seeing, specifically in Africa with artists like Burna Boy, and Wizkid, and Davido and others that have really made the most of the constraints that they've had, but how it actually helped improve their careers as well. [00:02:08] Dan Runcie: We also talked about the music investment landscape, specifically in Africa, some of the opportunities there, some of the differences as it relates to music streaming. And then we chat a little bit more about Stan and what Denisha is building towards. This is a really fun combo. I hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Denisha. [00:02:26] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're joined by Denisha Kuhlor, who is the founder and CEO of Stan. And Denisha, you recently wrote an awesome guest piece in Trapital about the downside of music festivals. So why did you write this piece? Let's talk about it.  [00:02:44] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So it's been something that's been in my mind for a long time. I think even on the consumer side, I've changed, I guess, how I patronize music and seeing artists and really just wanted to talk about like, how that impacts my relationship with the artists. I think we've been really conditioned and excited as consumers to attend festivals that optimize for seeing as many artists as possible. [00:03:09] Denisha Kuhlor: But what I think about some of my favorite music moments, frankly, they weren't at a festival, always a show that the artists headlined themselves. And so when I think about the impact and the touring coming, kind of coming back, you know, since restrictions, because of COVID, I think it was really important to explore from both an artist and somewhat a fan perspective. [00:03:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah. One of the things, I think, you highlight as well, especially on the artist's perspective too, we could easily get caught up in the allure of festivals. People always want to see who's headlining Coachella and what does it mean. And there's not going to be as much of a headlining or newsworthy thing if you're doing your own festival, but in a lot of ways, that's where you really meet your fans everywhere. And in a lot of ways, that makes much more of a difference in the long term even if the initial check size isn't as big, which you called out.  [00:04:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. And in a weird way, festivals have almost become like very industry, I guess, and everything leading up to the festival, right? The politics behind being picked, where your name is on the flyer and, and what that represents. And while they're all great, I guess, points that can help an artist in the right direction, I think there's other ways to do it that maybe don't initially come with some of that fanfare. I totally agree.  [00:04:25] Dan Runcie: So what are some of those ways?  [00:04:27] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So I really, to, I guess, put a tech or venture lens on it, but the great essay of like, doing things that don't scale, right? Like, I think so often as an artist or as an aspiring artist, it's really easy to look up to the really big things. Like you said, those are the things that are newsworthy, those are the things that are covered, and that people like see as amazing. But I, I think that artists right now have like a really unique ability to just play around, right, and play around with what that means. So I think a lot about Burna Boy's interview in Billboard recently. And even though he just like headline MSG, is the first Nigerian act to do that, and has been breaking a ton of records. Like, he just kind of was like, the next big thing for me is touring in like, avant-garde venues or venues that you typically wouldn't. [00:05:11] Denisha Kuhlor: And while he's a big star, that's something that's really feasible for small artists as well, right? You know, venues, venues and tradition. And that's why I love what, like Sofar Sounds are, is doing or other platforms. But I think so often it's easy to have like a uniform idea of what a tour looks like, or even what connecting with your fans looks like. [00:05:31] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think sometimes just bringing together, like, even 20 or 25 people that want to see you, that are willing to take their time. And like this world of an attention deficit, like someone giving an hour or two hours of your time just to appreciate your art is really amazing. And I think that artists are so used, like, just sold out a thousand, a thousand seats or 2000 or 3000. The quantitative numbers kind of don't allow them to connect on a qualitative level.  [00:05:57] Dan Runcie: Right. And everyone has to start somewhere. But I feel like in this era where there's so much instant gratification, people don't always want to go through the steps of shooting in the gym or any of that to get to that point. [00:06:09] Dan Runcie: And I think part of what makes it tough, even if they're willing to do it, sometimes the optics can be a bit scary just because of how things are set up. I think one of the things that you mentioned in the piece and we were talking about afterward is just how, if an artist gets booked on a festival, everyone may not necessarily be there to see them, even the people that are standing there, but there's this optic of look at me, performing in front of these 8,000 people that are immediately in front of me, right? But if they go and do their own show and they can't sell a thousand tickets, or if they have one of those things where they're performing and you could see so much space in between the people that are standing in the audience, then there's a bit of a vanity piece where it's like, are you comfortable with that even though, you know, that that's how you build a fan base.  [00:06:57] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So true. You know, as we were talking about that point, I thought a lot deeper about it, and a dynamic, I think, that's also really important is almost like how social media accessibility also plays from a peer perspective. [00:07:12] Denisha Kuhlor: And so these artists, while you can be a smaller, newer, upcoming artist, you can, I guess, be or feel like your peers with artists that are way larger than you just for proximity to that artist. And as a result, you almost kind of feel, like, embarrassed, if you will. It's like a freshman hanging out with a senior, right? [00:07:31] Denisha Kuhlor: They're going to do senior things, whether it's going to prom or what, like whatever, but there's, like, really levels and social media. And I guess just other mediums have kind of taken away some of those levels. And as a result, like Issa Rae's quote, people are so busy, like, networking that they're not networking across. And as a result who or what they compare themselves to creates a false sense of reality when it comes time for their own careers.  [00:07:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that if you're on that stage, you think, okay. Yeah, I'm here, but you're really not. There's a huge difference. And as we both know, festivals get sold by the headliners, and yeah, the further, the smaller your font size is, for better or worse, the more interchangeable you actually are. And I think an instance of this, I know I've written about this recently, was looking at Coi Leray. And a lot of people had made a bit of noise about where things looked like from her perspective and her numbers because she had so many things that were coincides in her favor, in terms of being signed a Republic, she had songs with Nicki and Lil Durk. She performed on Fallon, BET awards. Benzino's daughter, over 6 million Instagram followers, but when it came time to sell her album, we're talking 11,500 units, which is around, I mean, less than 20 million streams in a week, which isn't that much. [00:08:52] Dan Runcie: There's plenty of other legacy albums that get more than that. And then they recently announced her tour and she's doing a mix of festivals and tour stops, but her tour stops, they're cities with less than 500 capacity venues. And I don't think it's just her necessarily. I think this applies to a lot of people, but it's just such a big difference where, okay, your followers are not necessarily your fans. And I think the distinction between touring and doing, you know, festivals highlights that more than anything.  [00:09:24] Denisha Kuhlor: I think she's been a really interesting one to watch if only for all the things you mentioned. She's a great example of kind of a new artist these days and it begs the question, like, if attention at all, even really equals any type of conversion to, like, true patronage. And something I find is that like in a digitally native generation, they don't view attention, or maybe even we, like, we don't necessarily view attention in a positive or negative sentiment. Just because in a way you're willing to give your attention to something doesn't mean in any way it's potentially in your favor when the time comes that that attention will convert to something really tangible. [00:10:04] Denisha Kuhlor: But I also in, you know, in her case being signed, you know, being signed to Republic, I think it continues to, like, push that conversation of what A&R should look like now. You know, reading a lot about how A&R has evolved and having conversations with people in the industry. I think before or, or now it's evolved, right, to, like, leveraging data, right? And so many people talk about data. You can, of course, leverage data to find these up-and-coming artists, but then once you do or decide that you want to invest in this artist and work with this artist, what do those conversations kind of look like early to promote that strategy and kind of sometimes force the artists to, to go slow before they can go fast. [00:10:41] Denisha Kuhlor: I mean, we've all seen documentaries of artists from decades ago and kind of all the pre-work they did before even being pushed to being allowed to release a single or being allowed to perform a song. And that looks very different now. It almost seems like things are backwards, but not in a reverse engineer backwards. It's more just like, this happened and so now let's capitalize on that. And I think that we're kind of seeing some of the negative effects of premature success if you will.  [00:11:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. I think that, on a more recent level, I think about Olivia Rodrigo here in the US, everyone saw how big Sour was and they were like, oh, well, you could go tour arenas now. [00:11:20] Dan Runcie: And it sounds like her and her team talked about it. They're like, no, we're going to stick to the halls that we have. And it looks like she's performing in venues that have, you know, roughly several thousand, you know, capacity. At least that's what I saw here when she came through in San Francisco. And I think she may have done like Radio City or some of the others I would have to check, but I feel like that makes sense. You know, just given that, but I think this dynamic is even more pronounced in Africa, which a lot of the artists, which have recently become superstars there as well. And you talked a lot about that in the piece and Burna Boy, who I think is a great case study on this.  [00:11:55] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've, one, just loved the music coming out of the continent. And two, I think it's really fascinating in the way artists have to position their careers to really succeed both in the continent and on a global scale. You know, part of it in a way probably comes from socioeconomic factors and then as well as just having like really migrant diasporas. [00:12:16] Denisha Kuhlor: But because of that, artists are like really, I think, forced to prioritize performing in the beginning. And when you look at the audience, right, it is kind of those things that don't scale. It's the weddings, it's the really small club performances, it's the open mics, like things that used to be very common for artists everywhere. [00:12:37] Denisha Kuhlor: But seems like, has kind of, kind of slowed down. And so as a result, I think, without having an A&R, they kind of do their own a A&R, right? You've heard stories of artists who would come to a country once and like nobody came to see them. And then three years later, the show was sold out. [00:12:51] Denisha Kuhlor: And so, artists are not only able to refine their performances. They get quick feedback loops and they do it in a way that I think is authentic to them and their sound. And it forces them to win people over, right? If you're performing at a wedding, the percentage of people that might like you could be high, could be low. But ultimately you want to walk away with more fans, right? These people are giving you an opportunity to convert them or at least to try. Whereas now I think, unfortunately, a little bit of entitlement that comes with some artists, right? Even from being upset when the audience doesn't react a certain way, and that's just like a humility that I think African artists have, have embraced. [00:13:28] Denisha Kuhlor: In terms of converting, converting the fan or the listener. And I think you see that even more when the artist really begins to take a global approach. Everybody from, you know, Davido shutting out the power of, the power of New York, or why music from the continent has been able to get so big as of recently. [00:13:46] Denisha Kuhlor: And so I think that African artists are a great example in terms of looking to, to kind of do that slow climb, and that slow work to be able to get to the point where they can sell out arenas today.  [00:13:57] Dan Runcie: Right. It's like the constraints that the industry has forced them to do the things that don't scale and because they exactly did that, that's how they're in the position they are today. And that's why Burna Boy's selling out Madison Square Garden, right?  [00:14:11] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly. And it's a safe space, if you will, to get feedback. I think, you know, so often as an artist, you're of course refining who you are in creative direction and all of that, but there's just some things that come from experience with being a performer and constantly just having those feedback loops to, to iterate on what songs work, what transitions work. When you see a Beyoncé at Coachella, that's years and decades of being able to study crowd reaction of how certain things flow, what works, what doesn't work to put on a show like that. [00:14:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah, the feedback loops piece is key too, 'cause obviously that's going to be harder to get from a festival because you don't even know if half these people are just, you know, burning time until the headliner comes, but you can actually see what the folks you're trying to reach resonate with. And this is something that I always thought about. [00:14:59] Dan Runcie: Tyler Perry, of course, this isn't music, but with his place, he would always talk about this, how he would switch things up. He's going on this large tour across different parts of the country. He's going to use certain jokes or use certain lines that are going to work in the South, that aren't going to work in the Northeast and aren't going to work on the West Coast, and things like that. [00:15:18] Dan Runcie: And anyone that is performing that actually sees how the people that they are reaching, interact with the stuff while they're doing it. It almost always leads to a better product so that when they are doing the movies or when they are doing the mass thing, they can hit the ground running.  [00:15:34] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, that's really true. And you know, as you're talking, it makes me think about like, maybe there's even a certain archetype of artists and like, one that doesn't, like, heavily involve performance. Like, I think a lot about comedians and what the, what a comedian looks like now. You have your Instagram comedians or, you know, TikTok comedy is as it's referred to, but not many of them are thinking about going on tour doing standup. And so maybe in some ways, even all-encompassing performer is different now.  [00:16:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. I do think that for the people that are doing things live, it is easier to see it. I think that honestly, for people that write or podcast, it could be tougher because you, any type of feedback, there has to be at least some level of intent to let me reply to this email or let me follow up. I do think it's relatively easier for someone that has a newsletter to be able to do it relative to someone that's just writing standalone on a website. But I do think that when podcasters have live events and that is attracting people to a certain area, like, that's how they're able to get around this. But everyone, I think most creators, the more IRL things you have, whatever it is that you create, you're going to get more value out of that.  [00:16:45] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I totally agree with you there.  [00:16:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah. the person that I think actually kind of challenges this with some nuance perspective is Cardi B, especially at the highest level, just considering that we're now, it's been four years since Invasion of Privacy. [00:17:00] Dan Runcie: I think it's been five years since Bodak Yellow came out, which is wild to say, but I think there's a few things. One she's yet to do a true formal tour. And she's been the first to say that with, Hey, I'm getting seven-figure guarantees to go do stuff over in Europe. And sometimes I even get those checks here in the US to perform in headline festivals. [00:17:21] Dan Runcie: Why would I go through all of the things that are involved with touring? And to be fair, there are some challenges that many artists have with touring, whether it's okay, making sure that the lighting and everything is set up right. And the production looks great on that first event that you have, because if that doesn't hit right, then that's going to impact the sales for everything else. [00:17:40] Dan Runcie: So even though we know that, yeah, that's part of doing things that don't scale. You have to do it. Some artists are fearful of that. And I think sometimes she may, you know, or at least she's alluded to her avoiding that, or even just the cost. Like, she even talked to herself about how the first time she did Coachella, it cost her more money than she actually got from the events of doing it just because of how much she spent on those things. [00:18:01] Dan Runcie: And, you know, she, at least, of her perspective sounds like she wants to be able to build up leverage likely in order to command a, you know, 40, 50 plus city arena tour that would likely match up with her star power. And I feel like that's part of the thing because I remember there was this debate going on, where people were wondering, okay, you know, if she does, like, what she would do. [00:18:26] Dan Runcie: And of course you'd all the Nicki Minaj haters were being like, oh, well she's not doing a tour 'cause she can't sell out a tour. And it's like, okay, I don't think it's that, you know, egregious. You all can, the barbs can relax a bit. But I do think that, you know, part of what I think makes it kind of tough, especially from a, a social following perspective, which I know is something that we've talked about before is that with certain artists, the reason that people follow you, you mentioned this earlier, isn't always because they're, like, vibing with your music. [00:18:57] Dan Runcie: I mean, Cardi B puts out a lot of, you know, beauty shots to show off her fashion to show off her glamor, and some people may like that stuff and they may have not even listened to WAP or any of the, you know, bigger hits she has so how do you quantify that? So I'm very interested to see, one, what this next album looks like and what her next live performance strategy looks like. [00:19:19] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know, if, if I was like thinking about what would be interesting for Cardi B, I think ultimately it'd be kind of a hybrid experience, right? Like I think you nailed it on the head in the sense that Cardi is a lifestyle, a lifestyle brand that has many different pillars that stand for many different things. [00:19:36] Denisha Kuhlor: And people really resonate with her, but for all types of things. And so, you know, you see more artists creating their own festivals and I don't know if there's a potential to, like, pilot what that, like, hybrid concept could look like maybe in the Bronx or somewhere unique to her. [00:19:50] Denisha Kuhlor: But I think that ultimately it will need to encompass everything that she represents. And so while the music will, of course, be one of those pillars, I feel like it could be, or would be so much, so much more. And given that she has so many brand deals and endorsements with companies that really appreciate her for the lifestyle brand that she is, I think it could be really, really unique. [00:20:10] Denisha Kuhlor: Even a partner with a festival promoter, you know, Rolling Loud is working with Chris Brown and Lil Baby as they go on tour. Like, even to, to have that partnership in a way that's really authentic and unique to her, I think is going to be fascinating. I feel like she's the artist that can kind of push the envelope in terms of experiencing her or artist in a way that we haven't necessarily thought of. You know, so often I think about, I think about like the rise or, of nightclubs and like branded parties. And right now you kind of see like two things, right? There's like really popular nightclubs that will just exist by virtue of like being a marquee name, whether that's the LIV and LIV on Sunday, but then you also have parties, right? And the parties exist without the, the venues. What I constantly think about is, like, everyday people is the party. It's not about where everyday people is or more, or more so where they're going. And so I think that's like a similar thing, that Cardi brings and the ability that she's so much of the brand, that it's more so about what she wants to do and where she'll bring people to that medium versus following the traditional way things have been done before.  [00:21:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think the branded piece, it, especially being able to have some type of partner with the concert or with the tour more broadly, would be big because I'm thinking about some of the recent ones we've seen. And even some of these are just slight nuances, like Kendrick Lamar partnering with Cash App for his Big Steppers tour. [00:21:28] Dan Runcie: He has coming up. I saw The Weeknd has one of these crypto companies. I think it's Binance. Yeah, Binance is doing his tour and he's doing like a big stadium tour for this run that he has coming up. And I think that just opens it up to be like, yeah, you could have many other folks. It doesn't always necessarily have to be, you know, Visa credit card holders to get the pre-check or whatever it is to get the early thing. You know, you can actually have, you know, other partners that are aligned with many of the brands and partnerships that Cardi has already had relationships with.  [00:22:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. And I really thought, you know, the Kendrick and Cash App partnership was fascinating to me because of, I feel like, the message it sent, right? Like, to me, it almost said like, let's make this tour accessible to all our fans versus the barrier to entry, you know, while it's nice to have an Amex Platinum, not everyone does so like versus the barrier to entry. And I think that's another really important thing with touring, right? [00:22:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Like controlling the barriers to entry in which your fans get to see you. And so, you know, it just really symbolized to me that, like, in a way, Kendrick, like, wants his biggest fans there and he's going to remove the barriers to entry to do so. So that was a, I really enjoyed seeing that partnership. [00:22:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a great point because I think one of the challenges that we've seen over the years with live shows and live entertainment pricing for events is artists that are trying to price things in a way to give fans a fair chance. But also understanding that the reseller market is going to, you know, take it up to a crazy amount and then you have artists buying back and then trying to sell it themselves as resellers. And I know it could just get so messy when you see that. But I think it's clearly done because they want to be able to make sure that the actual fans can do it. But yeah, if you're just giving it to like Amex Platinum and Black Card holders, then it isn't going to work Like, we've all seen the dynamics of how Cash App grew. Cash App grew because of hip-hop fans 'cause of hip-hop influencers pushing this, and then that's how they're able to grow in the South and grow in places that Venmo didn't grow. So have it all lined up if you're trying to reach those people. [00:23:37] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly, exactly. You know, in, in the years to come and especially with the rise of tech and really probably as a result of rising customer acquisition costs on Facebook ads and other platforms. Partnering with tech companies is going to be a great source, a great source of revenue. [00:23:52] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think just authentic partnership for artists. And ultimately it'll come down to their methodology behind choosing the right partners and what it says about how they value or how they desire to connect with their audiences. So I'm excited to see more, more partnerships, especially, I guess not just in the FinTech space, but consumer technology space overall. And I think we can tell, you know, even just as regular fans, whether it's authentic or not. Cash App made so much sense, everybody was like, of course. And I think the best part about it was people were like, oh, I have an account. Like, I've already done X thing. And so this just naturally fits in with my lifestyle.  [00:24:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And I, I think we'll see more of it. I hope we continue to, I know a lot of these companies have been US-based, but I'm really excited to see what's going to be coming from Africa specifically because there's so much music activity. [00:24:43] Dan Runcie: We already talked about the artists coming through and how the artists themselves in many ways will have better chops just because of the constraints that you know, are there that currently existed that we talked about earlier. What are you seeing in the space? What excites you? [00:24:57] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I've been really excited about everything coming out of the continent, both from a music standpoint and venture standpoint. [00:25:04] Denisha Kuhlor: It's interesting because for a long time telcos have been heavily involved in underwriting artists, artists careers, right? So a lot of performances and even festivals are heavily sponsored by telcos on the continent. And so they've always had a role and I think kind of understood the value in investing in partnering with, with artists early. I think what's evolving is the amount of money coming to the continent, especially as it relates to startups and funding tech companies. [00:25:31] Denisha Kuhlor: And so as a result, like they realize the value as well and investing in music. And you see a lot of those partnerships. I mean, Chipper Cash is partnered with Burna Boy, right? So, like looking at, like, one of the most valued FinTech companies in Africa and one of the biggest artists in Africa, I think we're going to continue to see those relationships and those partnerships. I also think that it's going to evolve to a natural progression that we saw here as that artists want a bit more, a bit more of the pie. And so while, you know, speculating, I think a lot of these deals are, you know, cash, maybe a small range of cash and a little bit of equity. [00:26:06] Denisha Kuhlor: I think we're going to see artists want to become a lot more hands-on, especially for projects that are commoditized. And in a lot of ways, remittances or some of these FinTech products are, are really dependent on your ability to have a license. And so as artists maybe get to start to be able to navigate that landscape and bring together teams, I would be, I wouldn't be surprised to see them launch products of their own in similar spaces. [00:26:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's exciting. I mean, there's so much, I also look at what's happening in music specifically. Of course, as we know all the major record labels have a presence, not just in the, you know, continent overall, but in the different areas. I mean, it's huge. You can't just, you know, have a presence in South Africa and think you're going to cover everything happening sub Sahara or everywhere else. [00:26:52] Dan Runcie: Like, you need to be focused on what's happening in a particular area. And I think too, we saw earlier this year in Andreessen Horowitz had made its first investment in that mobile games company, Carry1st, I think we're going to see more and more of that. And I do think that we're going to see even more innovation in African music. [00:27:12] Dan Runcie: I know that all the streaming services have been trying to acquire more subscribers and more listeners in those places. But yeah, the dominant listening in many ways is still downloads of the companies that have been able to focus on that. So there's so many unique aspects that I'm excited to see play out. [00:27:32] Denisha Kuhlor: Totally. Another, you know, another, I guess, thing that's really interesting to me is the kind of the conversation lately, as it relates to like what type of music has dominated. I've seen and talked to a lot of folks who kind of hypothesized that, like the reason music coming out of the continents and has grown so much is because it's very universal in a way where everybody can participate. Like say, on the dance floor, just experiencing the music versus kind of some of the hip-hop and rap music that has dominated that's really driven by club culture, and bottle popping culture, and VIP, and sections and, and that whole thing. [00:28:07] Denisha Kuhlor: And so, I find that, I find that dynamic fascinating as well in kind of the universal sense that it brings. And you see that on like TikTok, like how many, like, dances can you make to a song about like popping bottles versus just like a really great beat?  [00:28:24] Dan Runcie: Right, right. Yeah. Do you feel like TikTok is having the same impact there on the continent that it is in the US? Are you noticing anything that's unique or different?  [00:28:34] Denisha Kuhlor: No. I, I really think that music coming out of the continent in a lot of ways it really does like describe like the tastemaker culture. As someone who's spent, you know, time in Ghana as well as in the States, like, I always hear the songs first in Ghana. I learned about I'm A Piano in Ghana, even Peru, I was in Ghana back in August. And that's when I first heard the song. Like I think because of the just diaspora nature, right? So people like myself or other first or second-gen folks going home and saying like, oh, wow, like this is the next big thing out here and kind of taking it back allows for that to happen.  [00:29:10] Denisha Kuhlor: So in a lot of ways, I feel like I go or spend time on the continent to see, to see what's new. And then TikTok is probably the biggest indicator of what's most likely to take off from there. But I would look at, you know, some of these cities, especially around nightlife, as more of the curators and, and the tastemakers and TikTok, just being a mirror of, in some ways, the work that's already been done.  [00:29:31] Dan Runcie: Okay. So it's more so following the culture, not setting it.  [00:29:34] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah.  [00:29:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think, too, to some extent that's, I would say maybe it's, it's a little different in the US because I do think that what we see on TikTok in some ways does set where people end up following, at least here, right? Because I think you just see so many trends originating from things people do. You're more likely to see clips from TikTok posted and shared on other platforms, as opposed to what you may see, vice versa. So I feel like, yeah.  [00:30:05] Denisha Kuhlor: I agree. I think it's definitely, I think it's definitely very different and I think it's what makes being an artist a little, a little tricky because if you are an American artist, for example, and your song is becoming the biggest thing in Ghana, that probably has very, you know, different implications for how you navigate that or how you think about career and how you think about strategy. [00:30:24] Denisha Kuhlor: And, you know, unfortunately, I guess if you're an artist maybe who has risen on TikTok primarily in the States, what does that mean when it comes time for touring or time to do a date? How is that attention converted? Because the fact of the matter is American fans just have more opportunities to patronize their favorite artists. [00:30:42] Denisha Kuhlor: When you look at the amount of venues and just like analysis to, and ways you can interact with artists here, there's just so many, so many option. And so that conversion rate is high or is harder.  [00:30:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And that reminds me of something else I've heard artists say. This isn't anything new, but they've said that they always get more love when, US artists specifically, they always get more love when they perform outside of the US because the US artists, they see plenty of things there or the US fans necessarily, they have more opportunities to see you. So they're not necessarily as like wilder, they take the moment in as special as it is, as opposed to the artists that are going outside of the USA perform.  [00:31:26] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know, I talk to folks around when J Cole in Nigeria. And I think that was such a great example. Like, he had just released the album that day and was shocked that people knew, that people knew every word. And specifically, I think when artists come to the continent, it's always an occasion, right? People are really excited. [00:31:42] Denisha Kuhlor: Cardi B was a great example. People are just like really excited in some ways that they're like participating. Like, we didn't go to you, you came to us. You value us enough to do that. And I think, you know, regardless whether it's Africa or Japan or even Europe, like, there's just a, yeah, there's just a different level of, of appreciation. [00:32:00] Denisha Kuhlor: And people really, really hold onto it as an experience that will, that will be with them. And unfortunately, because of some of these, these festivals, like you can casually see an artist that you don't even like that much. Multiple times, like, you know, I don't, I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but let's say if you go to every Rolling Loud festival in New York, just once a year, how many artists have overlapped or how many artists have you seen multiple times? [00:32:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Just as a result of patronizing that one Fest. And so as a result, the star power, the whole je ne sais quoi, kind of, kind of falls away. But I think you don't get that same type of, I guess, performance burnout or consumer burnout when you do headline your own tour because it's something different every time. It's experiencing, you know, Beyoncé fans, I'm sure we'll talk about this, but I think the beauty and what her Coachella performance was. Everyone knew the songs, right, we knew the music for the most part, but it, it was now just experiencing it in a different way and in a way that she wanted us to experience it. And unfortunately, I don't think artists get to do that in the same way with festivals they're not headlining.  [00:33:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The Rolling Loud example always makes me think of Future. I always say that he has a low-key residency at that. I, I actually went back, and counted this. I forget how many Rolling Louds there have been, but at least 40% of them, he has been a headliner at. [00:33:23] Dan Runcie: I mean, it's a high number and to your point, I mean, I'm sure that paycheck's great. I, I'm not concerned about, you know, Future from a buddy perspective. He is prolific, and, I mean, he had one of the best-selling albums so far this year, but yeah, to your point that is kind of, I think, Future is a model that clicks with that as well. [00:33:42] Dan Runcie: He's going to put out music early and often. He's going to perform, and he's always going to be there. And I think for him it works, but it's just not going to be the same thing necessarily as. Beyoncé record or something like that. [00:33:55] Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I'm curious, how do you think that impacts like an artist's elasticity, like, of course, with more and more artists selling their catalogs and just navigating the world as an artist very differently, how do you think that does impact their just elasticity in the music game overall?  [00:34:12] Dan Runcie: I think it's twofold because I think that to one point, a lot of artists do feel like they have to keep the content machine turning. I think that's, that kinda line, lines up with Daniel Ek, Spotify CEO, and what he had said that was a polarizing statement at the time of you releasing music every three years, isn't going to be enough anymore. So I do think that someone like Future has lead into that and say, okay, I have this base and I know they're going to listen to everything that I put out, whatever I do it. So let me maximize that. [00:34:49] Dan Runcie: And I think for someone like Future because as popular as he is with a particular demo, one, his mainstream popularity isn't quite where it was like when like DS2 came out in 2015. So he's definitely serving more of the large, but, you know, core fans. And I think just given some of the issues that people have about him, and, of course, we've all seen the memes about, you know, problematic Future sending, you know, the text to the, to the ex or whatever it is. [00:35:20] Dan Runcie: Like, I don't think that he necessarily has the same marketability to let's say, go launch a, you know, huge, whatever it is, the same way that we see the Beyoncé or Rihanna do it. That doesn't mean he can't, he can obviously still has the platform. So I do think for him and even someone like an NBA YoungBoy who, you know, is even younger, then releasing music early and often kind of works for them because they may not get, you know, like, the big deal from whatever company wanting to partner with them, but they could reach their fans directly. So they're going to maximize that. So I think it's a little different though, when you are a Beyoncé or you are a Rihanna where, you know, there's so many other things you're doing, so when you release music, you do want it to hit because you want it to have this halo effect over everything else that you're doing. [00:36:06] Dan Runcie: There's anomalies to this, of course, I mean, or not anomalies, but I think some folks will do it differently. I mean, Drake is still going to give you a release every year, every other year. Kanye West has likely been doing the same, but I do think that that's still different than, you know, how like Future's going about it. [00:36:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Agreed. Agreed. I wonder 10 years from now or 15 years from now if Future is still touring or even releasing music, what that relationship looks like, and even what a tour would look like given the brevity of music he's put out.  [00:36:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. To be honest, I think he likely will, just a matter of like, you know, what does it look like? How big and like, you know, like, the dynamics there. I recently posed the question on Twitter, which artist do you expect to still be releasing music when they're 70 plus years old? I don't think many people mentioned him, but I would definitely put him in that category. I feel like not too far away from 40. I do think that, you know, he loves this, for better or worse, and I feel like he'll likely continue.  [00:37:06] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, in, in rap, it's still so new, which is crazy that we have just seen enough examples of that. And so these probably, or artists like Future will be those, those examples for us to look back at. [00:37:20] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And I think so much of this, with this whole conversation, we're talking about the relationship between fans and how fans really help you format what you're doing and how to really set the framework for your career. And this aligns with the work that you're doing now. You recently launched and, and announce the company you have with Stan that is helping artists have a more fan-focused approach to their careers. So can you talk a bit more about that?  [00:37:45] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So I recently decided to go full-time on a music tech startup called Stan, focused on audience engagement infrastructure, so really to help artists understand their audiences at a micro and macro level with the goal of providing better fan experiences. I kind of think it's crazy in some ways that every industry that wants to encourage a repeatable customer behavior has a loyalty program, but unfortunately, artists have very fragmented loyalty programs. And of course, the rise of NFTs and specific things as it relates to streaming platforms or even email lists. We've seen artists make great attempts, I think at doing and running really effective programs, but I really want to add more, more science to the arts to create, if you will, moments of magic on a greater scale. So artists can better connect with their fan bases.  [00:38:36] Dan Runcie: Nice. Where did the inspiration come from? I'm sure a lot of it is things we talked about in this conversation. [00:38:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so much of it. Interestingly enough, it has come from writing. I long admired, of course, Trapital and, and other platforms. And really just wanted to explore, like, the conversation of fan relationships. And I think fan relationships have evolved so much, but wanted to kind of like push the, push the envelope in terms of what was being explored as it relates to the fan-artist relationship and also highlight how sophisticated fans are of course, with, you know, the rise of, of stans and how much they're covered. I think that people think of fans as just like, okay, like a casual listener and then the overzealous fan. And I think that's such a, that's such a gap and fandoms operate in such a sophisticated way, that we really needed to push the conversation on what that looked like. [00:39:25] Denisha Kuhlor: And as a result, the more I kept writing, the greater, like the problem became to me in the sense of, I think there's a lot of really, really amazing platforms designed to, you know, be direct to fan and connect the artists to the fan. But for anybody that's in any type of relationship business, I think it feels a little used car salesman to, like, try and extract money, like immediately, like, Hey, I just met you, like, give me this thing. And so I felt like there was a, an over-focus on the monetization of fan bases. Before fan bases were frankly strong enough to, to survive that monetization. So I kind of wanted to take it back a step to say, if you have a really strong relationship, relationships are everything, right? You'll be able to survive and not even just survive, thrive, because you can withstand volatility and maybe even turmoil. [00:40:13] Dan Runcie: So what does it look like from the artist's perspective? Like, if I wanted get involved, like, what does that engagement look like?  [00:40:19] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So we're currently in the experimentation phase playing around with products and experiments that allow us to hit product-market fit. We're gearing up for a beta. So I love to talk to any artists that think really intensely about connecting with their fans. But ideally, we love to work with artists that, one, want to create, like, what I call moments of magic. And so like some great examples is J Cole, right? Like, not only the Dollar & A Dream Tour,, but going to, going to this fan's graduations or how do you actively and naturally involve yourself in your fan's life in a way that feels authentic and encourages a bidirectional relationship. [00:40:55] Denisha Kuhlor: As a result, a lot of the work that we're doing is analyzing artists and their current data as well as tapping into, into new data sets as a result of creating games, as well as just different forms for artists to connect with their fans. So any artist that, one, thinks deeply about this, that wants to understand their data better across multiple platforms. We, we'd love to talk to you, especially as we work with artists on an ad hoc basis to gear up for the launch of the platform.  [00:41:23] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. I mean, as we both know, this type of need is more crucial than ever, and there's so much data that can be misleading or misunderstood as you've talked about before you can't just go on a follower account. You can't just go on Spotify listens. Some of these things correlate, but a lot of them don't.  [00:41:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, it's so true. You know, I think Spotify Wrapped is always so interesting to me in the sense that it's great, right? And what became even more interesting was when fans, fans, of course, post, but then to see artists post, right? [00:41:54] Denisha Kuhlor: And kind of what that meant for them and the excitement. And so there were things that I felt like off the bat, like, certain artists expected to get, right, you expected to have every country represented when it came to countries listened or just certain things represented, but I thought a lot about it. [00:42:08] Denisha Kuhlor: And I was just like, that one snapshot into a portion of your fan base. Like, what does that tell you from an actionable data perspective? But I guess before we can even know how relevant or how much you can guide your actions around those results is how much of your fan base is on Spotify? Like you mentioned, in actual, like, a lot of music is listened through downloads or partnerships with telcos and other streaming platforms. [00:42:31] Denisha Kuhlor: People use Audiomack, and Boomplay, and different streaming platforms. And so without, like, knowing an aggregate, what your Spotify listeners even represent when it comes to your audience? It can also be a slippery slope to make directions based on the most advanced data sets. If they're not really replicative of your whole audience. [00:42:51] Dan Runcie: Right. Because I think one of the things that I often see with Spotify specifically is that people will, especially in the US, they'll use it as like a rule of thumb to say that, okay, you see the data that comes to you from Spotify, either multiply it by three or three and a half or four. And maybe that gives you a rough idea of how big the overall streaming market is for a particular artist, but that works in the US that doesn't work for artists elsewhere. So being able to see those distinctions, especially considering how global the music industry is, that's where people can actually make actionable insight.  [00:43:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly. I think, you know, artists are really starting to approach their careers from a global standpoint will be really, really helpful moving forward. [00:43:33] Denisha Kuhlor: And as they consider the elasticity of their own careers, especially given that, like, smaller markets can be more forgiving, right? And so even if you don't want to necessarily go through the 50-city 500-person venue tour, what about going to just a smaller market globally and getting that feedback, being able to perform, really connecting with your fans that way too. [00:43:54] Denisha Kuhlor: I completely agree with you. I think that artists are just going to really have to be global from day one and as a result just because you're familiar with consuming music in a certain way, isn't necessarily how your entire fan base is going to do it. So becoming more sophisticated around what that looks like and how you can best work with those platforms will be really, really advantageous moving forward. [00:44:14] Denisha Kuhlor: Definitely.  [00:44:15] Dan Runcie: And you're in a great position to be able to do that. So I feel like the timing lines up well with this. So for you specifically, for the people that either are listening, or whether they're artists or working with artists, where can they follow up? Where could they go?  [00:44:28] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, yeah. So you can find me on Denisha Kuhlor at Twitter, love Twitter so always on there. And then you can just shoot me an email at d@stan.fan as well.  [00:44:38] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. Denisha, this was great. I feel like we covered a bunch of things that are happening right now in the industry and yeah, very timely. So thanks again for coming.  [00:44:47] Denisha Kuhlor: Of course. Thanks for having me.  [00:44:49] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 08 Jul 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Improving The Artist-Fan Relationship full Dan Runcie There’s never been more ways for artists to tap directly into their fan bases than present day. However, actually understanding those same audiences hasn’t scaled at the same rate with the times. My guest on Trapital this week, Denisha Kuhlor, is out to solve that pain point with her new music tech startup, Stan. Denisha’s company wants to take a more scientific approach to understanding and growing an artist's fanbase — from the casuals to the “stans.” Strengthening the artist-fan relationship will create better fan experiences, or as Denisha calls them, “moments of magic.”  One way to create that magic is through live performance, but not necessarily at music festivals, argues Denisha. She thinks artists are mistakenly prioritizing quantitative metrics (attendance and performance-fee sizes) rather than the qualitative. While this might provide a short-term boost, it hurts in the long term since artists aren’t connecting with the “stans” that are paying to see them and them only.    Denisha has observed this effect among Africa-based artists. The continent has produced a number of new stars, who generally “cut their teeth” performing at smaller, but more intimate venues like a club or even a wedding. Denisha has more insights into the rise of Africa’s music scene, the state of touring, and more. Here’s all our talking points in this episode: [2:44] The Downside Of Performing At Music Festivals [8:52] Followers Aren’t Your Fans [12:51] African Artists Model The Way For Growing A Fanbase [14:11] Benefits Of Instant Feedback Loops When Performing [16:47] Cardi B’s Unique Approach To Touring [21:28] Deeper Message In Kendrick Lamar’s Partnership With Cash App  [26:52] What’s The Future Of African Music? [28:07] TikTok’s Influence In Africa’s Music Scene [31:42] Differences Between Performing In US Vs. Africa  [33:55] 'Elasticity” Of An Artist Like Future [38:41] Denisha’s Start-Up Stan Is Reimagining Fan-Artist Relationship [40:19] How An Artist Can Leverage Stan Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Transcription [00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: I really think that music coming out of the continent in a lot of ways, it really does like describe like the tastemaker culture. I always hear the songs first in Ghana. I learned about I'm A Piano in Ghana, even Peru, I was in Ghana back in August. And that's when I first heard the song. Like, I think because of the just diaspora nature, right? So people like myself or other first or second-gen folks going home and saying like, oh, wow, like this is the next big thing out here and kind of taking it back allows for that to happen.  [00:00:31] Dan Runcie:  Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:58] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is all about fans, specifically as it relates to music festivals because the people that see you perform at music festivals are not necessarily the same people that see you perform when you're on a tour. And on this episode, I was joined by Denisha Kuhlor, who is the founder and CEO of Stan, a company that focuses specifically on helping artists make better decisions based on their fan engagement. [00:01:24] Dan Runcie: And we talked all about what it's like for artists that focus on music festivals and while music festivals can be a great way to reach new people and a great way to get a good check, especially if you're a headliner performing at one of the big ones, it doesn't replace the things that don't scale and doing the hard work of building a fan base, and going out there, and meeting the people that actually want to see your music and see you in person. [00:01:50] Dan Runcie: So we talk about that. We talk about some of the current trends in the trade-offs and what Denisha is currently seeing, specifically in Africa with artists like Burna Boy, and Wizkid, and Davido and others that have really made the most of the constraints that they've had, but how it actually helped improve their careers as well. [00:02:08] Dan Runcie: We also talked about the music investment landscape, specifically in Africa, some of the opportunities there, some of the differences as it relates to music streaming. And then we chat a little bit more about Stan and what Denisha is building towards. This is a really fun combo. I hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Denisha. [00:02:26] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're joined by Denisha Kuhlor, who is the founder and CEO of Stan. And Denisha, you recently wrote an awesome guest piece in Trapital about the downside of music festivals. So why did you write this piece? Let's talk about it.  [00:02:44] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So it's been something that's been in my mind for a long time. I think even on the consumer side, I've changed, I guess, how I patronize music and seeing artists and really just wanted to talk about like, how that impacts my relationship with the artists. I think we've been really conditioned and excited as consumers to attend festivals that optimize for seeing as many artists as possible. [00:03:09] Denisha Kuhlor: But what I think about some of my favorite music moments, frankly, they weren't at a festival, always a show that the artists headlined themselves. And so when I think about the impact and the touring coming, kind of coming back, you know, since restrictions, because of COVID, I think it was really important to explore from both an artist and somewhat a fan perspective. [00:03:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah. One of the things, I think, you highlight as well, especially on the artist's perspective too, we could easily get caught up in the allure of festivals. People always want to see who's headlining Coachella and what does it mean. And there's not going to be as much of a headlining or newsworthy thing if you're doing your own festival, but in a lot of ways, that's where you really meet your fans everywhere. And in a lot of ways, that makes much more of a difference in the long term even if the initial check size isn't as big, which you called out.  [00:04:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. And in a weird way, festivals have almost become like very industry, I guess, and everything leading up to the festival, right? The politics behind being picked, where your name is on the flyer and, and what that represents. And while they're all great, I guess, points that can help an artist in the right direction, I think there's other ways to do it that maybe don't initially come with some of that fanfare. I totally agree.  [00:04:25] Dan Runcie: So what are some of those ways?  [00:04:27] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So I really, to, I guess, put a tech or venture lens on it, but the great essay of like, doing things that don't scale, right? Like, I think so often as an artist or as an aspiring artist, it's really easy to look up to the really big things. Like you said, those are the things that are newsworthy, those are the things that are covered, and that people like see as amazing. But I, I think that artists right now have like a really unique ability to just play around, right, and play around with what that means. So I think a lot about Burna Boy's interview in Billboard recently. And even though he just like headline MSG, is the first Nigerian act to do that, and has been breaking a ton of records. Like, he just kind of was like, the next big thing for me is touring in like, avant-garde venues or venues that you typically wouldn't. [00:05:11] Denisha Kuhlor: And while he's a big star, that's something that's really feasible for small artists as well, right? You know, venues, venues and tradition. And that's why I love what, like Sofar Sounds are, is doing or other platforms. But I think so often it's easy to have like a uniform idea of what a tour looks like, or even what connecting with your fans looks like. [00:05:31] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think sometimes just bringing together, like, even 20 or 25 people that want to see you, that are willing to take their time. And like this world of an attention deficit, like someone giving an hour or two hours of your time just to appreciate your art is really amazing. And I think that artists are so used, like, just sold out a thousand, a thousand seats or 2000 or 3000. The quantitative numbers kind of don't allow them to connect on a qualitative level.  [00:05:57] Dan Runcie: Right. And everyone has to start somewhere. But I feel like in this era where there's so much instant gratification, people don't always want to go through the steps of shooting in the gym or any of that to get to that point. [00:06:09] Dan Runcie: And I think part of what makes it tough, even if they're willing to do it, sometimes the optics can be a bit scary just because of how things are set up. I think one of the things that you mentioned in the piece and we were talking about afterward is just how, if an artist gets booked on a festival, everyone may not necessarily be there to see them, even the people that are standing there, but there's this optic of look at me, performing in front of these 8,000 people that are immediately in front of me, right? But if they go and do their own show and they can't sell a thousand tickets, or if they have one of those things where they're performing and you could see so much space in between the people that are standing in the audience, then there's a bit of a vanity piece where it's like, are you comfortable with that even though, you know, that that's how you build a fan base.  [00:06:57] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So true. You know, as we were talking about that point, I thought a lot deeper about it, and a dynamic, I think, that's also really important is almost like how social media accessibility also plays from a peer perspective. [00:07:12] Denisha Kuhlor: And so these artists, while you can be a smaller, newer, upcoming artist, you can, I guess, be or feel like your peers with artists that are way larger than you just for proximity to that artist. And as a result, you almost kind of feel, like, embarrassed, if you will. It's like a freshman hanging out with a senior, right? [00:07:31] Denisha Kuhlor: They're going to do senior things, whether it's going to prom or what, like whatever, but there's, like, really levels and social media. And I guess just other mediums have kind of taken away some of those levels. And as a result, like Issa Rae's quote, people are so busy, like, networking that they're not networking across. And as a result who or what they compare themselves to creates a false sense of reality when it comes time for their own careers.  [00:07:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that if you're on that stage, you think, okay. Yeah, I'm here, but you're really not. There's a huge difference. And as we both know, festivals get sold by the headliners, and yeah, the further, the smaller your font size is, for better or worse, the more interchangeable you actually are. And I think an instance of this, I know I've written about this recently, was looking at Coi Leray. And a lot of people had made a bit of noise about where things looked like from her perspective and her numbers because she had so many things that were coincides in her favor, in terms of being signed a Republic, she had songs with Nicki and Lil Durk. She performed on Fallon, BET awards. Benzino's daughter, over 6 million Instagram followers, but when it came time to sell her album, we're talking 11,500 units, which is around, I mean, less than 20 million streams in a week, which isn't that much. [00:08:52] Dan Runcie: There's plenty of other legacy albums that get more than that. And then they recently announced her tour and she's doing a mix of festivals and tour stops, but her tour stops, they're cities with less than 500 capacity venues. And I don't think it's just her necessarily. I think this applies to a lot of people, but it's just such a big difference where, okay, your followers are not necessarily your fans. And I think the distinction between touring and doing, you know, festivals highlights that more than anything.  [00:09:24] Denisha Kuhlor: I think she's been a really interesting one to watch if only for all the things you mentioned. She's a great example of kind of a new artist these days and it begs the question, like, if attention at all, even really equals any type of conversion to, like, true patronage. And something I find is that like in a digitally native generation, they don't view attention, or maybe even we, like, we don't necessarily view attention in a positive or negative sentiment. Just because in a way you're willing to give your attention to something doesn't mean in any way it's potentially in your favor when the time comes that that attention will convert to something really tangible. [00:10:04] Denisha Kuhlor: But I also in, you know, in her case being signed, you know, being signed to Republic, I think it continues to, like, push that conversation of what A&R should look like now. You know, reading a lot about how A&R has evolved and having conversations with people in the industry. I think before or, or now it's evolved, right, to, like, leveraging data, right? And so many people talk about data. You can, of course, leverage data to find these up-and-coming artists, but then once you do or decide that you want to invest in this artist and work with this artist, what do those conversations kind of look like early to promote that strategy and kind of sometimes force the artists to, to go slow before they can go fast. [00:10:41] Denisha Kuhlor: I mean, we've all seen documentaries of artists from decades ago and kind of all the pre-work they did before even being pushed to being allowed to release a single or being allowed to perform a song. And that looks very different now. It almost seems like things are backwards, but not in a reverse engineer backwards. It's more just like, this happened and so now let's capitalize on that. And I think that we're kind of seeing some of the negative effects of premature success if you will.  [00:11:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. I think that, on a more recent level, I think about Olivia Rodrigo here in the US, everyone saw how big Sour was and they were like, oh, well, you could go tour arenas now. [00:11:20] Dan Runcie: And it sounds like her and her team talked about it. They're like, no, we're going to stick to the halls that we have. And it looks like she's performing in venues that have, you know, roughly several thousand, you know, capacity. At least that's what I saw here when she came through in San Francisco. And I think she may have done like Radio City or some of the others I would have to check, but I feel like that makes sense. You know, just given that, but I think this dynamic is even more pronounced in Africa, which a lot of the artists, which have recently become superstars there as well. And you talked a lot about that in the piece and Burna Boy, who I think is a great case study on this.  [00:11:55] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've, one, just loved the music coming out of the continent. And two, I think it's really fascinating in the way artists have to position their careers to really succeed both in the continent and on a global scale. You know, part of it in a way probably comes from socioeconomic factors and then as well as just having like really migrant diasporas. [00:12:16] Denisha Kuhlor: But because of that, artists are like really, I think, forced to prioritize performing in the beginning. And when you look at the audience, right, it is kind of those things that don't scale. It's the weddings, it's the really small club performances, it's the open mics, like things that used to be very common for artists everywhere. [00:12:37] Denisha Kuhlor: But seems like, has kind of, kind of slowed down. And so as a result, I think, without having an A&R, they kind of do their own a A&R, right? You've heard stories of artists who would come to a country once and like nobody came to see them. And then three years later, the show was sold out. [00:12:51] Denisha Kuhlor: And so, artists are not only able to refine their performances. They get quick feedback loops and they do it in a way that I think is authentic to them and their sound. And it forces them to win people over, right? If you're performing at a wedding, the percentage of people that might like you could be high, could be low. But ultimately you want to walk away with more fans, right? These people are giving you an opportunity to convert them or at least to try. Whereas now I think, unfortunately, a little bit of entitlement that comes with some artists, right? Even from being upset when the audience doesn't react a certain way, and that's just like a humility that I think African artists have, have embraced. [00:13:28] Denisha Kuhlor: In terms of converting, converting the fan or the listener. And I think you see that even more when the artist really begins to take a global approach. Everybody from, you know, Davido shutting out the power of, the power of New York, or why music from the continent has been able to get so big as of recently. [00:13:46] Denisha Kuhlor: And so I think that African artists are a great example in terms of looking to, to kind of do that slow climb, and that slow work to be able to get to the point where they can sell out arenas today.  [00:13:57] Dan Runcie: Right. It's like the constraints that the industry has forced them to do the things that don't scale and because they exactly did that, that's how they're in the position they are today. And that's why Burna Boy's selling out Madison Square Garden, right?  [00:14:11] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly. And it's a safe space, if you will, to get feedback. I think, you know, so often as an artist, you're of course refining who you are in creative direction and all of that, but there's just some things that come from experience with being a performer and constantly just having those feedback loops to, to iterate on what songs work, what transitions work. When you see a Beyoncé at Coachella, that's years and decades of being able to study crowd reaction of how certain things flow, what works, what doesn't work to put on a show like that. [00:14:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah, the feedback loops piece is key too, 'cause obviously that's going to be harder to get from a festival because you don't even know if half these people are just, you know, burning time until the headliner comes, but you can actually see what the folks you're trying to reach resonate with. And this is something that I always thought about. [00:14:59] Dan Runcie: Tyler Perry, of course, this isn't music, but with his place, he would always talk about this, how he would switch things up. He's going on this large tour across different parts of the country. He's going to use certain jokes or use certain lines that are going to work in the South, that aren't going to work in the Northeast and aren't going to work on the West Coast, and things like that. [00:15:18] Dan Runcie: And anyone that is performing that actually sees how the people that they are reaching, interact with the stuff while they're doing it. It almost always leads to a better product so that when they are doing the movies or when they are doing the mass thing, they can hit the ground running.  [00:15:34] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, that's really true. And you know, as you're talking, it makes me think about like, maybe there's even a certain archetype of artists and like, one that doesn't, like, heavily involve performance. Like, I think a lot about comedians and what the, what a comedian looks like now. You have your Instagram comedians or, you know, TikTok comedy is as it's referred to, but not many of them are thinking about going on tour doing standup. And so maybe in some ways, even all-encompassing performer is different now.  [00:16:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. I do think that for the people that are doing things live, it is easier to see it. I think that honestly, for people that write or podcast, it could be tougher because you, any type of feedback, there has to be at least some level of intent to let me reply to this email or let me follow up. I do think it's relatively easier for someone that has a newsletter to be able to do it relative to someone that's just writing standalone on a website. But I do think that when podcasters have live events and that is attracting people to a certain area, like, that's how they're able to get around this. But everyone, I think most creators, the more IRL things you have, whatever it is that you create, you're going to get more value out of that.  [00:16:45] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I totally agree with you there.  [00:16:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah. the person that I think actually kind of challenges this with some nuance perspective is Cardi B, especially at the highest level, just considering that we're now, it's been four years since Invasion of Privacy. [00:17:00] Dan Runcie: I think it's been five years since Bodak Yellow came out, which is wild to say, but I think there's a few things. One she's yet to do a true formal tour. And she's been the first to say that with, Hey, I'm getting seven-figure guarantees to go do stuff over in Europe. And sometimes I even get those checks here in the US to perform in headline festivals. [00:17:21] Dan Runcie: Why would I go through all of the things that are involved with touring? And to be fair, there are some challenges that many artists have with touring, whether it's okay, making sure that the lighting and everything is set up right. And the production looks great on that first event that you have, because if that doesn't hit right, then that's going to impact the sales for everything else. [00:17:40] Dan Runcie: So even though we know that, yeah, that's part of doing things that don't scale. You have to do it. Some artists are fearful of that. And I think sometimes she may, you know, or at least she's alluded to her avoiding that, or even just the cost. Like, she even talked to herself about how the first time she did Coachella, it cost her more money than she actually got from the events of doing it just because of how much she spent on those things. [00:18:01] Dan Runcie: And, you know, she, at least, of her perspective sounds like she wants to be able to build up leverage likely in order to command a, you know, 40, 50 plus city arena tour that would likely match up with her star power. And I feel like that's part of the thing because I remember there was this debate going on, where people were wondering, okay, you know, if she does, like, what she would do. [00:18:26] Dan Runcie: And of course you'd all the Nicki Minaj haters were being like, oh, well she's not doing a tour 'cause she can't sell out a tour. And it's like, okay, I don't think it's that, you know, egregious. You all can, the barbs can relax a bit. But I do think that, you know, part of what I think makes it kind of tough, especially from a, a social following perspective, which I know is something that we've talked about before is that with certain artists, the reason that people follow you, you mentioned this earlier, isn't always because they're, like, vibing with your music. [00:18:57] Dan Runcie: I mean, Cardi B puts out a lot of, you know, beauty shots to show off her fashion to show off her glamor, and some people may like that stuff and they may have not even listened to WAP or any of the, you know, bigger hits she has so how do you quantify that? So I'm very interested to see, one, what this next album looks like and what her next live performance strategy looks like. [00:19:19] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know, if, if I was like thinking about what would be interesting for Cardi B, I think ultimately it'd be kind of a hybrid experience, right? Like I think you nailed it on the head in the sense that Cardi is a lifestyle, a lifestyle brand that has many different pillars that stand for many different things. [00:19:36] Denisha Kuhlor: And people really resonate with her, but for all types of things. And so, you know, you see more artists creating their own festivals and I don't know if there's a potential to, like, pilot what that, like, hybrid concept could look like maybe in the Bronx or somewhere unique to her. [00:19:50] Denisha Kuhlor: But I think that ultimately it will need to encompass everything that she represents. And so while the music will, of course, be one of those pillars, I feel like it could be, or would be so much, so much more. And given that she has so many brand deals and endorsements with companies that really appreciate her for the lifestyle brand that she is, I think it could be really, really unique. [00:20:10] Denisha Kuhlor: Even a partner with a festival promoter, you know, Rolling Loud is working with Chris Brown and Lil Baby as they go on tour. Like, even to, to have that partnership in a way that's really authentic and unique to her, I think is going to be fascinating. I feel like she's the artist that can kind of push the envelope in terms of experiencing her or artist in a way that we haven't necessarily thought of. You know, so often I think about, I think about like the rise or, of nightclubs and like branded parties. And right now you kind of see like two things, right? There's like really popular nightclubs that will just exist by virtue of like being a marquee name, whether that's the LIV and LIV on Sunday, but then you also have parties, right? And the parties exist without the, the venues. What I constantly think about is, like, everyday people is the party. It's not about where everyday people is or more, or more so where they're going. And so I think that's like a similar thing, that Cardi brings and the ability that she's so much of the brand, that it's more so about what she wants to do and where she'll bring people to that medium versus following the traditional way things have been done before.  [00:21:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think the branded piece, it, especially being able to have some type of partner with the concert or with the tour more broadly, would be big because I'm thinking about some of the recent ones we've seen. And even some of these are just slight nuances, like Kendrick Lamar partnering with Cash App for his Big Steppers tour. [00:21:28] Dan Runcie: He has coming up. I saw The Weeknd has one of these crypto companies. I think it's Binance. Yeah, Binance is doing his tour and he's doing like a big stadium tour for this run that he has coming up. And I think that just opens it up to be like, yeah, you could have many other folks. It doesn't always necessarily have to be, you know, Visa credit card holders to get the pre-check or whatever it is to get the early thing. You know, you can actually have, you know, other partners that are aligned with many of the brands and partnerships that Cardi has already had relationships with.  [00:22:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. And I really thought, you know, the Kendrick and Cash App partnership was fascinating to me because of, I feel like, the message it sent, right? Like, to me, it almost said like, let's make this tour accessible to all our fans versus the barrier to entry, you know, while it's nice to have an Amex Platinum, not everyone does so like versus the barrier to entry. And I think that's another really important thing with touring, right? [00:22:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Like controlling the barriers to entry in which your fans get to see you. And so, you know, it just really symbolized to me that, like, in a way, Kendrick, like, wants his biggest fans there and he's going to remove the barriers to entry to do so. So that was a, I really enjoyed seeing that partnership. [00:22:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a great point because I think one of the challenges that we've seen over the years with live shows and live entertainment pricing for events is artists that are trying to price things in a way to give fans a fair chance. But also understanding that the reseller market is going to, you know, take it up to a crazy amount and then you have artists buying back and then trying to sell it themselves as resellers. And I know it could just get so messy when you see that. But I think it's clearly done because they want to be able to make sure that the actual fans can do it. But yeah, if you're just giving it to like Amex Platinum and Black Card holders, then it isn't going to work Like, we've all seen the dynamics of how Cash App grew. Cash App grew because of hip-hop fans 'cause of hip-hop influencers pushing this, and then that's how they're able to grow in the South and grow in places that Venmo didn't grow. So have it all lined up if you're trying to reach those people. [00:23:37] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly, exactly. You know, in, in the years to come and especially with the rise of tech and really probably as a result of rising customer acquisition costs on Facebook ads and other platforms. Partnering with tech companies is going to be a great source, a great source of revenue. [00:23:52] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think just authentic partnership for artists. And ultimately it'll come down to their methodology behind choosing the right partners and what it says about how they value or how they desire to connect with their audiences. So I'm excited to see more, more partnerships, especially, I guess not just in the FinTech space, but consumer technology space overall. And I think we can tell, you know, even just as regular fans, whether it's authentic or not. Cash App made so much sense, everybody was like, of course. And I think the best part about it was people were like, oh, I have an account. Like, I've already done X thing. And so this just naturally fits in with my lifestyle.  [00:24:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And I, I think we'll see more of it. I hope we continue to, I know a lot of these companies have been US-based, but I'm really excited to see what's going to be coming from Africa specifically because there's so much music activity. [00:24:43] Dan Runcie: We already talked about the artists coming through and how the artists themselves in many ways will have better chops just because of the constraints that you know, are there that currently existed that we talked about earlier. What are you seeing in the space? What excites you? [00:24:57] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I've been really excited about everything coming out of the continent, both from a music standpoint and venture standpoint. [00:25:04] Denisha Kuhlor: It's interesting because for a long time telcos have been heavily involved in underwriting artists, artists careers, right? So a lot of performances and even festivals are heavily sponsored by telcos on the continent. And so they've always had a role and I think kind of understood the value in investing in partnering with, with artists early. I think what's evolving is the amount of money coming to the continent, especially as it relates to startups and funding tech companies. [00:25:31] Denisha Kuhlor: And so as a result, like they realize the value as well and investing in music. And you see a lot of those partnerships. I mean, Chipper Cash is partnered with Burna Boy, right? So, like looking at, like, one of the most valued FinTech companies in Africa and one of the biggest artists in Africa, I think we're going to continue to see those relationships and those partnerships. I also think that it's going to evolve to a natural progression that we saw here as that artists want a bit more, a bit more of the pie. And so while, you know, speculating, I think a lot of these deals are, you know, cash, maybe a small range of cash and a little bit of equity. [00:26:06] Denisha Kuhlor: I think we're going to see artists want to become a lot more hands-on, especially for projects that are commoditized. And in a lot of ways, remittances or some of these FinTech products are, are really dependent on your ability to have a license. And so as artists maybe get to start to be able to navigate that landscape and bring together teams, I would be, I wouldn't be surprised to see them launch products of their own in similar spaces. [00:26:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's exciting. I mean, there's so much, I also look at what's happening in music specifically. Of course, as we know all the major record labels have a presence, not just in the, you know, continent overall, but in the different areas. I mean, it's huge. You can't just, you know, have a presence in South Africa and think you're going to cover everything happening sub Sahara or everywhere else. [00:26:52] Dan Runcie: Like, you need to be focused on what's happening in a particular area. And I think too, we saw earlier this year in Andreessen Horowitz had made its first investment in that mobile games company, Carry1st, I think we're going to see more and more of that. And I do think that we're going to see even more innovation in African music. [00:27:12] Dan Runcie: I know that all the streaming services have been trying to acquire more subscribers and more listeners in those places. But yeah, the dominant listening in many ways is still downloads of the companies that have been able to focus on that. So there's so many unique aspects that I'm excited to see play out. [00:27:32] Denisha Kuhlor: Totally. Another, you know, another, I guess, thing that's really interesting to me is the kind of the conversation lately, as it relates to like what type of music has dominated. I've seen and talked to a lot of folks who kind of hypothesized that, like the reason music coming out of the continents and has grown so much is because it's very universal in a way where everybody can participate. Like say, on the dance floor, just experiencing the music versus kind of some of the hip-hop and rap music that has dominated that's really driven by club culture, and bottle popping culture, and VIP, and sections and, and that whole thing. [00:28:07] Denisha Kuhlor: And so, I find that, I find that dynamic fascinating as well in kind of the universal sense that it brings. And you see that on like TikTok, like how many, like, dances can you make to a song about like popping bottles versus just like a really great beat?  [00:28:24] Dan Runcie: Right, right. Yeah. Do you feel like TikTok is having the same impact there on the continent that it is in the US? Are you noticing anything that's unique or different?  [00:28:34] Denisha Kuhlor: No. I, I really think that music coming out of the continent in a lot of ways it really does like describe like the tastemaker culture. As someone who's spent, you know, time in Ghana as well as in the States, like, I always hear the songs first in Ghana. I learned about I'm A Piano in Ghana, even Peru, I was in Ghana back in August. And that's when I first heard the song. Like I think because of the just diaspora nature, right? So people like myself or other first or second-gen folks going home and saying like, oh, wow, like this is the next big thing out here and kind of taking it back allows for that to happen.  [00:29:10] Denisha Kuhlor: So in a lot of ways, I feel like I go or spend time on the continent to see, to see what's new. And then TikTok is probably the biggest indicator of what's most likely to take off from there. But I would look at, you know, some of these cities, especially around nightlife, as more of the curators and, and the tastemakers and TikTok, just being a mirror of, in some ways, the work that's already been done.  [00:29:31] Dan Runcie: Okay. So it's more so following the culture, not setting it.  [00:29:34] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah.  [00:29:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think, too, to some extent that's, I would say maybe it's, it's a little different in the US because I do think that what we see on TikTok in some ways does set where people end up following, at least here, right? Because I think you just see so many trends originating from things people do. You're more likely to see clips from TikTok posted and shared on other platforms, as opposed to what you may see, vice versa. So I feel like, yeah.  [00:30:05] Denisha Kuhlor: I agree. I think it's definitely, I think it's definitely very different and I think it's what makes being an artist a little, a little tricky because if you are an American artist, for example, and your song is becoming the biggest thing in Ghana, that probably has very, you know, different implications for how you navigate that or how you think about career and how you think about strategy. [00:30:24] Denisha Kuhlor: And, you know, unfortunately, I guess if you're an artist maybe who has risen on TikTok primarily in the States, what does that mean when it comes time for touring or time to do a date? How is that attention converted? Because the fact of the matter is American fans just have more opportunities to patronize their favorite artists. [00:30:42] Denisha Kuhlor: When you look at the amount of venues and just like analysis to, and ways you can interact with artists here, there's just so many, so many option. And so that conversion rate is high or is harder.  [00:30:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And that reminds me of something else I've heard artists say. This isn't anything new, but they've said that they always get more love when, US artists specifically, they always get more love when they perform outside of the US because the US artists, they see plenty of things there or the US fans necessarily, they have more opportunities to see you. So they're not necessarily as like wilder, they take the moment in as special as it is, as opposed to the artists that are going outside of the USA perform.  [00:31:26] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know, I talk to folks around when J Cole in Nigeria. And I think that was such a great example. Like, he had just released the album that day and was shocked that people knew, that people knew every word. And specifically, I think when artists come to the continent, it's always an occasion, right? People are really excited. [00:31:42] Denisha Kuhlor: Cardi B was a great example. People are just like really excited in some ways that they're like participating. Like, we didn't go to you, you came to us. You value us enough to do that. And I think, you know, regardless whether it's Africa or Japan or even Europe, like, there's just a, yeah, there's just a different level of, of appreciation. [00:32:00] Denisha Kuhlor: And people really, really hold onto it as an experience that will, that will be with them. And unfortunately, because of some of these, these festivals, like you can casually see an artist that you don't even like that much. Multiple times, like, you know, I don't, I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but let's say if you go to every Rolling Loud festival in New York, just once a year, how many artists have overlapped or how many artists have you seen multiple times? [00:32:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Just as a result of patronizing that one Fest. And so as a result, the star power, the whole je ne sais quoi, kind of, kind of falls away. But I think you don't get that same type of, I guess, performance burnout or consumer burnout when you do headline your own tour because it's something different every time. It's experiencing, you know, Beyoncé fans, I'm sure we'll talk about this, but I think the beauty and what her Coachella performance was. Everyone knew the songs, right, we knew the music for the most part, but it, it was now just experiencing it in a different way and in a way that she wanted us to experience it. And unfortunately, I don't think artists get to do that in the same way with festivals they're not headlining.  [00:33:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The Rolling Loud example always makes me think of Future. I always say that he has a low-key residency at that. I, I actually went back, and counted this. I forget how many Rolling Louds there have been, but at least 40% of them, he has been a headliner at. [00:33:23] Dan Runcie: I mean, it's a high number and to your point, I mean, I'm sure that paycheck's great. I, I'm not concerned about, you know, Future from a buddy perspective. He is prolific, and, I mean, he had one of the best-selling albums so far this year, but yeah, to your point that is kind of, I think, Future is a model that clicks with that as well. [00:33:42] Dan Runcie: He's going to put out music early and often. He's going to perform, and he's always going to be there. And I think for him it works, but it's just not going to be the same thing necessarily as. Beyoncé record or something like that. [00:33:55] Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I'm curious, how do you think that impacts like an artist's elasticity, like, of course, with more and more artists selling their catalogs and just navigating the world as an artist very differently, how do you think that does impact their just elasticity in the music game overall?  [00:34:12] Dan Runcie: I think it's twofold because I think that to one point, a lot of artists do feel like they have to keep the content machine turning. I think that's, that kinda line, lines up with Daniel Ek, Spotify CEO, and what he had said that was a polarizing statement at the time of you releasing music every three years, isn't going to be enough anymore. So I do think that someone like Future has lead into that and say, okay, I have this base and I know they're going to listen to everything that I put out, whatever I do it. So let me maximize that. [00:34:49] Dan Runcie: And I think for someone like Future because as popular as he is with a particular demo, one, his mainstream popularity isn't quite where it was like when like DS2 came out in 2015. So he's definitely serving more of the large, but, you know, core fans. And I think just given some of the issues that people have about him, and, of course, we've all seen the memes about, you know, problematic Future sending, you know, the text to the, to the ex or whatever it is. [00:35:20] Dan Runcie: Like, I don't think that he necessarily has the same marketability to let's say, go launch a, you know, huge, whatever it is, the same way that we see the Beyoncé or Rihanna do it. That doesn't mean he can't, he can obviously still has the platform. So I do think for him and even someone like an NBA YoungBoy who, you know, is even younger, then releasing music early and often kind of works for them because they may not get, you know, like, the big deal from whatever company wanting to partner with them, but they could reach their fans directly. So they're going to maximize that. So I think it's a little different though, when you are a Beyoncé or you are a Rihanna where, you know, there's so many other things you're doing, so when you release music, you do want it to hit because you want it to have this halo effect over everything else that you're doing. [00:36:06] Dan Runcie: There's anomalies to this, of course, I mean, or not anomalies, but I think some folks will do it differently. I mean, Drake is still going to give you a release every year, every other year. Kanye West has likely been doing the same, but I do think that that's still different than, you know, how like Future's going about it. [00:36:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Agreed. Agreed. I wonder 10 years from now or 15 years from now if Future is still touring or even releasing music, what that relationship looks like, and even what a tour would look like given the brevity of music he's put out.  [00:36:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. To be honest, I think he likely will, just a matter of like, you know, what does it look like? How big and like, you know, like, the dynamics there. I recently posed the question on Twitter, which artist do you expect to still be releasing music when they're 70 plus years old? I don't think many people mentioned him, but I would definitely put him in that category. I feel like not too far away from 40. I do think that, you know, he loves this, for better or worse, and I feel like he'll likely continue.  [00:37:06] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, in, in rap, it's still so new, which is crazy that we have just seen enough examples of that. And so these probably, or artists like Future will be those, those examples for us to look back at. [00:37:20] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And I think so much of this, with this whole conversation, we're talking about the relationship between fans and how fans really help you format what you're doing and how to really set the framework for your career. And this aligns with the work that you're doing now. You recently launched and, and announce the company you have with Stan that is helping artists have a more fan-focused approach to their careers. So can you talk a bit more about that?  [00:37:45] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So I recently decided to go full-time on a music tech startup called Stan, focused on audience engagement infrastructure, so really to help artists understand their audiences at a micro and macro level with the goal of providing better fan experiences. I kind of think it's crazy in some ways that every industry that wants to encourage a repeatable customer behavior has a loyalty program, but unfortunately, artists have very fragmented loyalty programs. And of course, the rise of NFTs and specific things as it relates to streaming platforms or even email lists. We've seen artists make great attempts, I think at doing and running really effective programs, but I really want to add more, more science to the arts to create, if you will, moments of magic on a greater scale. So artists can better connect with their fan bases.  [00:38:36] Dan Runcie: Nice. Where did the inspiration come from? I'm sure a lot of it is things we talked about in this conversation. [00:38:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so much of it. Interestingly enough, it has come from writing. I long admired, of course, Trapital and, and other platforms. And really just wanted to explore, like, the conversation of fan relationships. And I think fan relationships have evolved so much, but wanted to kind of like push the, push the envelope in terms of what was being explored as it relates to the fan-artist relationship and also highlight how sophisticated fans are of course, with, you know, the rise of, of stans and how much they're covered. I think that people think of fans as just like, okay, like a casual listener and then the overzealous fan. And I think that's such a, that's such a gap and fandoms operate in such a sophisticated way, that we really needed to push the conversation on what that looked like. [00:39:25] Denisha Kuhlor: And as a result, the more I kept writing, the greater, like the problem became to me in the sense of, I think there's a lot of really, really amazing platforms designed to, you know, be direct to fan and connect the artists to the fan. But for anybody that's in any type of relationship business, I think it feels a little used car salesman to, like, try and extract money, like immediately, like, Hey, I just met you, like, give me this thing. And so I felt like there was a, an over-focus on the monetization of fan bases. Before fan bases were frankly strong enough to, to survive that monetization. So I kind of wanted to take it back a step to say, if you have a really strong relationship, relationships are everything, right? You'll be able to survive and not even just survive, thrive, because you can withstand volatility and maybe even turmoil. [00:40:13] Dan Runcie: So what does it look like from the artist's perspective? Like, if I wanted get involved, like, what does that engagement look like?  [00:40:19] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So we're currently in the experimentation phase playing around with products and experiments that allow us to hit product-market fit. We're gearing up for a beta. So I love to talk to any artists that think really intensely about connecting with their fans. But ideally, we love to work with artists that, one, want to create, like, what I call moments of magic. And so like some great examples is J Cole, right? Like, not only the Dollar & A Dream Tour,, but going to, going to this fan's graduations or how do you actively and naturally involve yourself in your fan's life in a way that feels authentic and encourages a bidirectional relationship. [00:40:55] Denisha Kuhlor: As a result, a lot of the work that we're doing is analyzing artists and their current data as well as tapping into, into new data sets as a result of creating games, as well as just different forms for artists to connect with their fans. So any artist that, one, thinks deeply about this, that wants to understand their data better across multiple platforms. We, we'd love to talk to you, especially as we work with artists on an ad hoc basis to gear up for the launch of the platform.  [00:41:23] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. I mean, as we both know, this type of need is more crucial than ever, and there's so much data that can be misleading or misunderstood as you've talked about before you can't just go on a follower account. You can't just go on Spotify listens. Some of these things correlate, but a lot of them don't.  [00:41:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, it's so true. You know, I think Spotify Wrapped is always so interesting to me in the sense that it's great, right? And what became even more interesting was when fans, fans, of course, post, but then to see artists post, right? [00:41:54] Denisha Kuhlor: And kind of what that meant for them and the excitement. And so there were things that I felt like off the bat, like, certain artists expected to get, right, you expected to have every country represented when it came to countries listened or just certain things represented, but I thought a lot about it. [00:42:08] Denisha Kuhlor: And I was just like, that one snapshot into a portion of your fan base. Like, what does that tell you from an actionable data perspective? But I guess before we can even know how relevant or how much you can guide your actions around those results is how much of your fan base is on Spotify? Like you mentioned, in actual, like, a lot of music is listened through downloads or partnerships with telcos and other streaming platforms. [00:42:31] Denisha Kuhlor: People use Audiomack, and Boomplay, and different streaming platforms. And so without, like, knowing an aggregate, what your Spotify listeners even represent when it comes to your audience? It can also be a slippery slope to make directions based on the most advanced data sets. If they're not really replicative of your whole audience. [00:42:51] Dan Runcie: Right. Because I think one of the things that I often see with Spotify specifically is that people will, especially in the US, they'll use it as like a rule of thumb to say that, okay, you see the data that comes to you from Spotify, either multiply it by three or three and a half or four. And maybe that gives you a rough idea of how big the overall streaming market is for a particular artist, but that works in the US that doesn't work for artists elsewhere. So being able to see those distinctions, especially considering how global the music industry is, that's where people can actually make actionable insight.  [00:43:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly. I think, you know, artists are really starting to approach their careers from a global standpoint will be really, really helpful moving forward. [00:43:33] Denisha Kuhlor: And as they consider the elasticity of their own careers, especially given that, like, smaller markets can be more forgiving, right? And so even if you don't want to necessarily go through the 50-city 500-person venue tour, what about going to just a smaller market globally and getting that feedback, being able to perform, really connecting with your fans that way too. [00:43:54] Denisha Kuhlor: I completely agree with you. I think that artists are just going to really have to be global from day one and as a result just because you're familiar with consuming music in a certain way, isn't necessarily how your entire fan base is going to do it. So becoming more sophisticated around what that looks like and how you can best work with those platforms will be really, really advantageous moving forward. [00:44:14] Denisha Kuhlor: Definitely.  [00:44:15] Dan Runcie: And you're in a great position to be able to do that. So I feel like the timing lines up well with this. So for you specifically, for the people that either are listening, or whether they're artists or working with artists, where can they follow up? Where could they go?  [00:44:28] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, yeah. So you can find me on Denisha Kuhlor at Twitter, love Twitter so always on there. And then you can just shoot me an email at d@stan.fan as well.  [00:44:38] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. Denisha, this was great. I feel like we covered a bunch of things that are happening right now in the industry and yeah, very timely. So thanks again for coming.  [00:44:47] Denisha Kuhlor: Of course. Thanks for having me.  [00:44:49] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. There’s never been more ways for artists to tap directly into their fan bases than present day. However, actually understanding those same audiences hasn’t scaled at the same rate with the times. My guest on Trapital this week, Denisha Kuhlor, is out to solve that pain point with her new music tech startup, Stan.


Denisha’s company wants to take a more scientific approach to understanding and growing an artist's fanbase — from the casuals to the “stans.” Strengthening the artist-fan relationship will create better fan experiences, or as Denisha calls them, “moments of magic.” 


One way to create that magic is through live performance, but not necessarily at music festivals, argues Denisha. She thinks artists are mistakenly prioritizing quantitative metrics (attendance and performance-fee sizes) rather than the qualitative. While this might provide a short-term boost, it hurts in the long term since artists aren’t connecting with the “stans” that are paying to see them and them only.   


Denisha has observed this effect among Africa-based artists. The continent has produced a number of new stars, who generally “cut their teeth” performing at smaller, but more intimate venues like a club or even a wedding. Denisha has more insights into the rise of Africa’s music scene, the state of touring, and more. Here’s all our talking points in this episode:


[2:44] The Downside Of Performing At Music Festivals

[8:52] Followers Aren’t Your Fans

[12:51] African Artists Model The Way For Growing A Fanbase

[14:11] Benefits Of Instant Feedback Loops When Performing

[16:47] Cardi B’s Unique Approach To Touring

[21:28] Deeper Message In Kendrick Lamar’s Partnership With Cash App 

[26:52] What’s The Future Of African Music?

[28:07] TikTok’s Influence In Africa’s Music Scene

[31:42] Differences Between Performing In US Vs. Africa 

[33:55] 'Elasticity” Of An Artist Like Future

[38:41] Denisha’s Start-Up Stan Is Reimagining Fan-Artist Relationship

[40:19] How An Artist Can Leverage Stan



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Denisha Kuhlor, @denishakuhlor

 

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 


Transcription

[00:00:00] Denisha Kuhlor: I really think that music coming out of the continent in a lot of ways, it really does like describe like the tastemaker culture. I always hear the songs first in Ghana. I learned about I'm A Piano in Ghana, even Peru, I was in Ghana back in August. And that's when I first heard the song. Like, I think because of the just diaspora nature, right? So people like myself or other first or second-gen folks going home and saying like, oh, wow, like this is the next big thing out here and kind of taking it back allows for that to happen. 

[00:00:31] Dan Runcie:  Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 

[00:00:58] Dan Runcie: Today's episode is all about fans, specifically as it relates to music festivals because the people that see you perform at music festivals are not necessarily the same people that see you perform when you're on a tour. And on this episode, I was joined by Denisha Kuhlor, who is the founder and CEO of Stan, a company that focuses specifically on helping artists make better decisions based on their fan engagement.

[00:01:24] Dan Runcie: And we talked all about what it's like for artists that focus on music festivals and while music festivals can be a great way to reach new people and a great way to get a good check, especially if you're a headliner performing at one of the big ones, it doesn't replace the things that don't scale and doing the hard work of building a fan base, and going out there, and meeting the people that actually want to see your music and see you in person.

[00:01:50] Dan Runcie: So we talk about that. We talk about some of the current trends in the trade-offs and what Denisha is currently seeing, specifically in Africa with artists like Burna Boy, and Wizkid, and Davido and others that have really made the most of the constraints that they've had, but how it actually helped improve their careers as well.

[00:02:08] Dan Runcie: We also talked about the music investment landscape, specifically in Africa, some of the opportunities there, some of the differences as it relates to music streaming. And then we chat a little bit more about Stan and what Denisha is building towards. This is a really fun combo. I hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Denisha.

[00:02:26] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we're joined by Denisha Kuhlor, who is the founder and CEO of Stan. And Denisha, you recently wrote an awesome guest piece in Trapital about the downside of music festivals. So why did you write this piece? Let's talk about it. 

[00:02:44] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So it's been something that's been in my mind for a long time. I think even on the consumer side, I've changed, I guess, how I patronize music and seeing artists and really just wanted to talk about like, how that impacts my relationship with the artists. I think we've been really conditioned and excited as consumers to attend festivals that optimize for seeing as many artists as possible.

[00:03:09] Denisha Kuhlor: But what I think about some of my favorite music moments, frankly, they weren't at a festival, always a show that the artists headlined themselves. And so when I think about the impact and the touring coming, kind of coming back, you know, since restrictions, because of COVID, I think it was really important to explore from both an artist and somewhat a fan perspective.

[00:03:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah. One of the things, I think, you highlight as well, especially on the artist's perspective too, we could easily get caught up in the allure of festivals. People always want to see who's headlining Coachella and what does it mean. And there's not going to be as much of a headlining or newsworthy thing if you're doing your own festival, but in a lot of ways, that's where you really meet your fans everywhere. And in a lot of ways, that makes much more of a difference in the long term even if the initial check size isn't as big, which you called out. 

[00:04:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. And in a weird way, festivals have almost become like very industry, I guess, and everything leading up to the festival, right? The politics behind being picked, where your name is on the flyer and, and what that represents. And while they're all great, I guess, points that can help an artist in the right direction, I think there's other ways to do it that maybe don't initially come with some of that fanfare. I totally agree. 

[00:04:25] Dan Runcie: So what are some of those ways? 

[00:04:27] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. So I really, to, I guess, put a tech or venture lens on it, but the great essay of like, doing things that don't scale, right? Like, I think so often as an artist or as an aspiring artist, it's really easy to look up to the really big things. Like you said, those are the things that are newsworthy, those are the things that are covered, and that people like see as amazing. But I, I think that artists right now have like a really unique ability to just play around, right, and play around with what that means. So I think a lot about Burna Boy's interview in Billboard recently. And even though he just like headline MSG, is the first Nigerian act to do that, and has been breaking a ton of records. Like, he just kind of was like, the next big thing for me is touring in like, avant-garde venues or venues that you typically wouldn't.

[00:05:11] Denisha Kuhlor: And while he's a big star, that's something that's really feasible for small artists as well, right? You know, venues, venues and tradition. And that's why I love what, like Sofar Sounds are, is doing or other platforms. But I think so often it's easy to have like a uniform idea of what a tour looks like, or even what connecting with your fans looks like.

[00:05:31] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think sometimes just bringing together, like, even 20 or 25 people that want to see you, that are willing to take their time. And like this world of an attention deficit, like someone giving an hour or two hours of your time just to appreciate your art is really amazing. And I think that artists are so used, like, just sold out a thousand, a thousand seats or 2000 or 3000. The quantitative numbers kind of don't allow them to connect on a qualitative level. 

[00:05:57] Dan Runcie: Right. And everyone has to start somewhere. But I feel like in this era where there's so much instant gratification, people don't always want to go through the steps of shooting in the gym or any of that to get to that point.

[00:06:09] Dan Runcie: And I think part of what makes it tough, even if they're willing to do it, sometimes the optics can be a bit scary just because of how things are set up. I think one of the things that you mentioned in the piece and we were talking about afterward is just how, if an artist gets booked on a festival, everyone may not necessarily be there to see them, even the people that are standing there, but there's this optic of look at me, performing in front of these 8,000 people that are immediately in front of me, right? But if they go and do their own show and they can't sell a thousand tickets, or if they have one of those things where they're performing and you could see so much space in between the people that are standing in the audience, then there's a bit of a vanity piece where it's like, are you comfortable with that even though, you know, that that's how you build a fan base. 

[00:06:57] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So true. You know, as we were talking about that point, I thought a lot deeper about it, and a dynamic, I think, that's also really important is almost like how social media accessibility also plays from a peer perspective.

[00:07:12] Denisha Kuhlor: And so these artists, while you can be a smaller, newer, upcoming artist, you can, I guess, be or feel like your peers with artists that are way larger than you just for proximity to that artist. And as a result, you almost kind of feel, like, embarrassed, if you will. It's like a freshman hanging out with a senior, right?

[00:07:31] Denisha Kuhlor: They're going to do senior things, whether it's going to prom or what, like whatever, but there's, like, really levels and social media. And I guess just other mediums have kind of taken away some of those levels. And as a result, like Issa Rae's quote, people are so busy, like, networking that they're not networking across. And as a result who or what they compare themselves to creates a false sense of reality when it comes time for their own careers. 

[00:07:54] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that if you're on that stage, you think, okay. Yeah, I'm here, but you're really not. There's a huge difference. And as we both know, festivals get sold by the headliners, and yeah, the further, the smaller your font size is, for better or worse, the more interchangeable you actually are. And I think an instance of this, I know I've written about this recently, was looking at Coi Leray. And a lot of people had made a bit of noise about where things looked like from her perspective and her numbers because she had so many things that were coincides in her favor, in terms of being signed a Republic, she had songs with Nicki and Lil Durk. She performed on Fallon, BET awards. Benzino's daughter, over 6 million Instagram followers, but when it came time to sell her album, we're talking 11,500 units, which is around, I mean, less than 20 million streams in a week, which isn't that much.

[00:08:52] Dan Runcie: There's plenty of other legacy albums that get more than that. And then they recently announced her tour and she's doing a mix of festivals and tour stops, but her tour stops, they're cities with less than 500 capacity venues. And I don't think it's just her necessarily. I think this applies to a lot of people, but it's just such a big difference where, okay, your followers are not necessarily your fans. And I think the distinction between touring and doing, you know, festivals highlights that more than anything. 

[00:09:24] Denisha Kuhlor: I think she's been a really interesting one to watch if only for all the things you mentioned. She's a great example of kind of a new artist these days and it begs the question, like, if attention at all, even really equals any type of conversion to, like, true patronage. And something I find is that like in a digitally native generation, they don't view attention, or maybe even we, like, we don't necessarily view attention in a positive or negative sentiment. Just because in a way you're willing to give your attention to something doesn't mean in any way it's potentially in your favor when the time comes that that attention will convert to something really tangible.

[00:10:04] Denisha Kuhlor: But I also in, you know, in her case being signed, you know, being signed to Republic, I think it continues to, like, push that conversation of what A&R should look like now. You know, reading a lot about how A&R has evolved and having conversations with people in the industry. I think before or, or now it's evolved, right, to, like, leveraging data, right? And so many people talk about data. You can, of course, leverage data to find these up-and-coming artists, but then once you do or decide that you want to invest in this artist and work with this artist, what do those conversations kind of look like early to promote that strategy and kind of sometimes force the artists to, to go slow before they can go fast.

[00:10:41] Denisha Kuhlor: I mean, we've all seen documentaries of artists from decades ago and kind of all the pre-work they did before even being pushed to being allowed to release a single or being allowed to perform a song. And that looks very different now. It almost seems like things are backwards, but not in a reverse engineer backwards. It's more just like, this happened and so now let's capitalize on that. And I think that we're kind of seeing some of the negative effects of premature success if you will. 

[00:11:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. I think that, on a more recent level, I think about Olivia Rodrigo here in the US, everyone saw how big Sour was and they were like, oh, well, you could go tour arenas now.

[00:11:20] Dan Runcie: And it sounds like her and her team talked about it. They're like, no, we're going to stick to the halls that we have. And it looks like she's performing in venues that have, you know, roughly several thousand, you know, capacity. At least that's what I saw here when she came through in San Francisco. And I think she may have done like Radio City or some of the others I would have to check, but I feel like that makes sense. You know, just given that, but I think this dynamic is even more pronounced in Africa, which a lot of the artists, which have recently become superstars there as well. And you talked a lot about that in the piece and Burna Boy, who I think is a great case study on this. 

[00:11:55] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've, one, just loved the music coming out of the continent. And two, I think it's really fascinating in the way artists have to position their careers to really succeed both in the continent and on a global scale. You know, part of it in a way probably comes from socioeconomic factors and then as well as just having like really migrant diasporas.

[00:12:16] Denisha Kuhlor: But because of that, artists are like really, I think, forced to prioritize performing in the beginning. And when you look at the audience, right, it is kind of those things that don't scale. It's the weddings, it's the really small club performances, it's the open mics, like things that used to be very common for artists everywhere.

[00:12:37] Denisha Kuhlor: But seems like, has kind of, kind of slowed down. And so as a result, I think, without having an A&R, they kind of do their own a A&R, right? You've heard stories of artists who would come to a country once and like nobody came to see them. And then three years later, the show was sold out.

[00:12:51] Denisha Kuhlor: And so, artists are not only able to refine their performances. They get quick feedback loops and they do it in a way that I think is authentic to them and their sound. And it forces them to win people over, right? If you're performing at a wedding, the percentage of people that might like you could be high, could be low. But ultimately you want to walk away with more fans, right? These people are giving you an opportunity to convert them or at least to try. Whereas now I think, unfortunately, a little bit of entitlement that comes with some artists, right? Even from being upset when the audience doesn't react a certain way, and that's just like a humility that I think African artists have, have embraced.

[00:13:28] Denisha Kuhlor: In terms of converting, converting the fan or the listener. And I think you see that even more when the artist really begins to take a global approach. Everybody from, you know, Davido shutting out the power of, the power of New York, or why music from the continent has been able to get so big as of recently.

[00:13:46] Denisha Kuhlor: And so I think that African artists are a great example in terms of looking to, to kind of do that slow climb, and that slow work to be able to get to the point where they can sell out arenas today. 

[00:13:57] Dan Runcie: Right. It's like the constraints that the industry has forced them to do the things that don't scale and because they exactly did that, that's how they're in the position they are today. And that's why Burna Boy's selling out Madison Square Garden, right? 

[00:14:11] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly. And it's a safe space, if you will, to get feedback. I think, you know, so often as an artist, you're of course refining who you are in creative direction and all of that, but there's just some things that come from experience with being a performer and constantly just having those feedback loops to, to iterate on what songs work, what transitions work. When you see a Beyoncé at Coachella, that's years and decades of being able to study crowd reaction of how certain things flow, what works, what doesn't work to put on a show like that.


[00:14:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah, the feedback loops piece is key too, 'cause obviously that's going to be harder to get from a festival because you don't even know if half these people are just, you know, burning time until the headliner comes, but you can actually see what the folks you're trying to reach resonate with. And this is something that I always thought about.

[00:14:59] Dan Runcie: Tyler Perry, of course, this isn't music, but with his place, he would always talk about this, how he would switch things up. He's going on this large tour across different parts of the country. He's going to use certain jokes or use certain lines that are going to work in the South, that aren't going to work in the Northeast and aren't going to work on the West Coast, and things like that.

[00:15:18] Dan Runcie: And anyone that is performing that actually sees how the people that they are reaching, interact with the stuff while they're doing it. It almost always leads to a better product so that when they are doing the movies or when they are doing the mass thing, they can hit the ground running. 

[00:15:34] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, that's really true. And you know, as you're talking, it makes me think about like, maybe there's even a certain archetype of artists and like, one that doesn't, like, heavily involve performance. Like, I think a lot about comedians and what the, what a comedian looks like now. You have your Instagram comedians or, you know, TikTok comedy is as it's referred to, but not many of them are thinking about going on tour doing standup. And so maybe in some ways, even all-encompassing performer is different now. 

[00:16:03] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. I do think that for the people that are doing things live, it is easier to see it. I think that honestly, for people that write or podcast, it could be tougher because you, any type of feedback, there has to be at least some level of intent to let me reply to this email or let me follow up. I do think it's relatively easier for someone that has a newsletter to be able to do it relative to someone that's just writing standalone on a website. But I do think that when podcasters have live events and that is attracting people to a certain area, like, that's how they're able to get around this. But everyone, I think most creators, the more IRL things you have, whatever it is that you create, you're going to get more value out of that. 

[00:16:45] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. I totally agree with you there. 

[00:16:47] Dan Runcie: Yeah. the person that I think actually kind of challenges this with some nuance perspective is Cardi B, especially at the highest level, just considering that we're now, it's been four years since Invasion of Privacy.

[00:17:00] Dan Runcie: I think it's been five years since Bodak Yellow came out, which is wild to say, but I think there's a few things. One she's yet to do a true formal tour. And she's been the first to say that with, Hey, I'm getting seven-figure guarantees to go do stuff over in Europe. And sometimes I even get those checks here in the US to perform in headline festivals.

[00:17:21] Dan Runcie: Why would I go through all of the things that are involved with touring? And to be fair, there are some challenges that many artists have with touring, whether it's okay, making sure that the lighting and everything is set up right. And the production looks great on that first event that you have, because if that doesn't hit right, then that's going to impact the sales for everything else.

[00:17:40] Dan Runcie: So even though we know that, yeah, that's part of doing things that don't scale. You have to do it. Some artists are fearful of that. And I think sometimes she may, you know, or at least she's alluded to her avoiding that, or even just the cost. Like, she even talked to herself about how the first time she did Coachella, it cost her more money than she actually got from the events of doing it just because of how much she spent on those things.

[00:18:01] Dan Runcie: And, you know, she, at least, of her perspective sounds like she wants to be able to build up leverage likely in order to command a, you know, 40, 50 plus city arena tour that would likely match up with her star power. And I feel like that's part of the thing because I remember there was this debate going on, where people were wondering, okay, you know, if she does, like, what she would do.

[00:18:26] Dan Runcie: And of course you'd all the Nicki Minaj haters were being like, oh, well she's not doing a tour 'cause she can't sell out a tour. And it's like, okay, I don't think it's that, you know, egregious. You all can, the barbs can relax a bit. But I do think that, you know, part of what I think makes it kind of tough, especially from a, a social following perspective, which I know is something that we've talked about before is that with certain artists, the reason that people follow you, you mentioned this earlier, isn't always because they're, like, vibing with your music.

[00:18:57] Dan Runcie: I mean, Cardi B puts out a lot of, you know, beauty shots to show off her fashion to show off her glamor, and some people may like that stuff and they may have not even listened to WAP or any of the, you know, bigger hits she has so how do you quantify that? So I'm very interested to see, one, what this next album looks like and what her next live performance strategy looks like.

[00:19:19] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know, if, if I was like thinking about what would be interesting for Cardi B, I think ultimately it'd be kind of a hybrid experience, right? Like I think you nailed it on the head in the sense that Cardi is a lifestyle, a lifestyle brand that has many different pillars that stand for many different things.

[00:19:36] Denisha Kuhlor: And people really resonate with her, but for all types of things. And so, you know, you see more artists creating their own festivals and I don't know if there's a potential to, like, pilot what that, like, hybrid concept could look like maybe in the Bronx or somewhere unique to her.

[00:19:50] Denisha Kuhlor: But I think that ultimately it will need to encompass everything that she represents. And so while the music will, of course, be one of those pillars, I feel like it could be, or would be so much, so much more. And given that she has so many brand deals and endorsements with companies that really appreciate her for the lifestyle brand that she is, I think it could be really, really unique.

[00:20:10] Denisha Kuhlor: Even a partner with a festival promoter, you know, Rolling Loud is working with Chris Brown and Lil Baby as they go on tour. Like, even to, to have that partnership in a way that's really authentic and unique to her, I think is going to be fascinating. I feel like she's the artist that can kind of push the envelope in terms of experiencing her or artist in a way that we haven't necessarily thought of. You know, so often I think about, I think about like the rise or, of nightclubs and like branded parties. And right now you kind of see like two things, right? There's like really popular nightclubs that will just exist by virtue of like being a marquee name, whether that's the LIV and LIV on Sunday, but then you also have parties, right? And the parties exist without the, the venues. What I constantly think about is, like, everyday people is the party. It's not about where everyday people is or more, or more so where they're going. And so I think that's like a similar thing, that Cardi brings and the ability that she's so much of the brand, that it's more so about what she wants to do and where she'll bring people to that medium versus following the traditional way things have been done before. 

[00:21:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think the branded piece, it, especially being able to have some type of partner with the concert or with the tour more broadly, would be big because I'm thinking about some of the recent ones we've seen. And even some of these are just slight nuances, like Kendrick Lamar partnering with Cash App for his Big Steppers tour.

[00:21:28] Dan Runcie: He has coming up. I saw The Weeknd has one of these crypto companies. I think it's Binance. Yeah, Binance is doing his tour and he's doing like a big stadium tour for this run that he has coming up. And I think that just opens it up to be like, yeah, you could have many other folks. It doesn't always necessarily have to be, you know, Visa credit card holders to get the pre-check or whatever it is to get the early thing. You know, you can actually have, you know, other partners that are aligned with many of the brands and partnerships that Cardi has already had relationships with. 

[00:22:01] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. And I really thought, you know, the Kendrick and Cash App partnership was fascinating to me because of, I feel like, the message it sent, right? Like, to me, it almost said like, let's make this tour accessible to all our fans versus the barrier to entry, you know, while it's nice to have an Amex Platinum, not everyone does so like versus the barrier to entry. And I think that's another really important thing with touring, right?

[00:22:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Like controlling the barriers to entry in which your fans get to see you. And so, you know, it just really symbolized to me that, like, in a way, Kendrick, like, wants his biggest fans there and he's going to remove the barriers to entry to do so. So that was a, I really enjoyed seeing that partnership.

[00:22:43] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a great point because I think one of the challenges that we've seen over the years with live shows and live entertainment pricing for events is artists that are trying to price things in a way to give fans a fair chance. But also understanding that the reseller market is going to, you know, take it up to a crazy amount and then you have artists buying back and then trying to sell it themselves as resellers. And I know it could just get so messy when you see that. But I think it's clearly done because they want to be able to make sure that the actual fans can do it. But yeah, if you're just giving it to like Amex Platinum and Black Card holders, then it isn't going to work Like, we've all seen the dynamics of how Cash App grew. Cash App grew because of hip-hop fans 'cause of hip-hop influencers pushing this, and then that's how they're able to grow in the South and grow in places that Venmo didn't grow. So have it all lined up if you're trying to reach those people.

[00:23:37] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly, exactly. You know, in, in the years to come and especially with the rise of tech and really probably as a result of rising customer acquisition costs on Facebook ads and other platforms. Partnering with tech companies is going to be a great source, a great source of revenue.

[00:23:52] Denisha Kuhlor: And I think just authentic partnership for artists. And ultimately it'll come down to their methodology behind choosing the right partners and what it says about how they value or how they desire to connect with their audiences. So I'm excited to see more, more partnerships, especially, I guess not just in the FinTech space, but consumer technology space overall. And I think we can tell, you know, even just as regular fans, whether it's authentic or not. Cash App made so much sense, everybody was like, of course. And I think the best part about it was people were like, oh, I have an account. Like, I've already done X thing. And so this just naturally fits in with my lifestyle. 

[00:24:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And I, I think we'll see more of it. I hope we continue to, I know a lot of these companies have been US-based, but I'm really excited to see what's going to be coming from Africa specifically because there's so much music activity.

[00:24:43] Dan Runcie: We already talked about the artists coming through and how the artists themselves in many ways will have better chops just because of the constraints that you know, are there that currently existed that we talked about earlier. What are you seeing in the space? What excites you?

[00:24:57] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, I've been really excited about everything coming out of the continent, both from a music standpoint and venture standpoint.

[00:25:04] Denisha Kuhlor: It's interesting because for a long time telcos have been heavily involved in underwriting artists, artists careers, right? So a lot of performances and even festivals are heavily sponsored by telcos on the continent. And so they've always had a role and I think kind of understood the value in investing in partnering with, with artists early. I think what's evolving is the amount of money coming to the continent, especially as it relates to startups and funding tech companies.

[00:25:31] Denisha Kuhlor: And so as a result, like they realize the value as well and investing in music. And you see a lot of those partnerships. I mean, Chipper Cash is partnered with Burna Boy, right? So, like looking at, like, one of the most valued FinTech companies in Africa and one of the biggest artists in Africa, I think we're going to continue to see those relationships and those partnerships. I also think that it's going to evolve to a natural progression that we saw here as that artists want a bit more, a bit more of the pie. And so while, you know, speculating, I think a lot of these deals are, you know, cash, maybe a small range of cash and a little bit of equity.

[00:26:06] Denisha Kuhlor: I think we're going to see artists want to become a lot more hands-on, especially for projects that are commoditized. And in a lot of ways, remittances or some of these FinTech products are, are really dependent on your ability to have a license. And so as artists maybe get to start to be able to navigate that landscape and bring together teams, I would be, I wouldn't be surprised to see them launch products of their own in similar spaces.

[00:26:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's exciting. I mean, there's so much, I also look at what's happening in music specifically. Of course, as we know all the major record labels have a presence, not just in the, you know, continent overall, but in the different areas. I mean, it's huge. You can't just, you know, have a presence in South Africa and think you're going to cover everything happening sub Sahara or everywhere else.

[00:26:52] Dan Runcie: Like, you need to be focused on what's happening in a particular area. And I think too, we saw earlier this year in Andreessen Horowitz had made its first investment in that mobile games company, Carry1st, I think we're going to see more and more of that. And I do think that we're going to see even more innovation in African music.

[00:27:12] Dan Runcie: I know that all the streaming services have been trying to acquire more subscribers and more listeners in those places. But yeah, the dominant listening in many ways is still downloads of the companies that have been able to focus on that. So there's so many unique aspects that I'm excited to see play out.

[00:27:32] Denisha Kuhlor: Totally. Another, you know, another, I guess, thing that's really interesting to me is the kind of the conversation lately, as it relates to like what type of music has dominated. I've seen and talked to a lot of folks who kind of hypothesized that, like the reason music coming out of the continents and has grown so much is because it's very universal in a way where everybody can participate. Like say, on the dance floor, just experiencing the music versus kind of some of the hip-hop and rap music that has dominated that's really driven by club culture, and bottle popping culture, and VIP, and sections and, and that whole thing.

[00:28:07] Denisha Kuhlor: And so, I find that, I find that dynamic fascinating as well in kind of the universal sense that it brings. And you see that on like TikTok, like how many, like, dances can you make to a song about like popping bottles versus just like a really great beat? 

[00:28:24] Dan Runcie: Right, right. Yeah. Do you feel like TikTok is having the same impact there on the continent that it is in the US? Are you noticing anything that's unique or different? 

[00:28:34] Denisha Kuhlor: No. I, I really think that music coming out of the continent in a lot of ways it really does like describe like the tastemaker culture. As someone who's spent, you know, time in Ghana as well as in the States, like, I always hear the songs first in Ghana. I learned about I'm A Piano in Ghana, even Peru, I was in Ghana back in August. And that's when I first heard the song. Like I think because of the just diaspora nature, right? So people like myself or other first or second-gen folks going home and saying like, oh, wow, like this is the next big thing out here and kind of taking it back allows for that to happen. 

[00:29:10] Denisha Kuhlor: So in a lot of ways, I feel like I go or spend time on the continent to see, to see what's new. And then TikTok is probably the biggest indicator of what's most likely to take off from there. But I would look at, you know, some of these cities, especially around nightlife, as more of the curators and, and the tastemakers and TikTok, just being a mirror of, in some ways, the work that's already been done. 

[00:29:31] Dan Runcie: Okay. So it's more so following the culture, not setting it. 

[00:29:34] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. 

[00:29:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think, too, to some extent that's, I would say maybe it's, it's a little different in the US because I do think that what we see on TikTok in some ways does set where people end up following, at least here, right? Because I think you just see so many trends originating from things people do. You're more likely to see clips from TikTok posted and shared on other platforms, as opposed to what you may see, vice versa. So I feel like, yeah. 

[00:30:05] Denisha Kuhlor: I agree. I think it's definitely, I think it's definitely very different and I think it's what makes being an artist a little, a little tricky because if you are an American artist, for example, and your song is becoming the biggest thing in Ghana, that probably has very, you know, different implications for how you navigate that or how you think about career and how you think about strategy.

[00:30:24] Denisha Kuhlor: And, you know, unfortunately, I guess if you're an artist maybe who has risen on TikTok primarily in the States, what does that mean when it comes time for touring or time to do a date? How is that attention converted? Because the fact of the matter is American fans just have more opportunities to patronize their favorite artists.

[00:30:42] Denisha Kuhlor: When you look at the amount of venues and just like analysis to, and ways you can interact with artists here, there's just so many, so many option. And so that conversion rate is high or is harder. 

[00:30:55] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And that reminds me of something else I've heard artists say. This isn't anything new, but they've said that they always get more love when, US artists specifically, they always get more love when they perform outside of the US because the US artists, they see plenty of things there or the US fans necessarily, they have more opportunities to see you. So they're not necessarily as like wilder, they take the moment in as special as it is, as opposed to the artists that are going outside of the USA perform. 

[00:31:26] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. You know, I talk to folks around when J Cole in Nigeria. And I think that was such a great example. Like, he had just released the album that day and was shocked that people knew, that people knew every word. And specifically, I think when artists come to the continent, it's always an occasion, right? People are really excited.

[00:31:42] Denisha Kuhlor: Cardi B was a great example. People are just like really excited in some ways that they're like participating. Like, we didn't go to you, you came to us. You value us enough to do that. And I think, you know, regardless whether it's Africa or Japan or even Europe, like, there's just a, yeah, there's just a different level of, of appreciation.

[00:32:00] Denisha Kuhlor: And people really, really hold onto it as an experience that will, that will be with them. And unfortunately, because of some of these, these festivals, like you can casually see an artist that you don't even like that much. Multiple times, like, you know, I don't, I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but let's say if you go to every Rolling Loud festival in New York, just once a year, how many artists have overlapped or how many artists have you seen multiple times?

[00:32:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Just as a result of patronizing that one Fest. And so as a result, the star power, the whole je ne sais quoi, kind of, kind of falls away. But I think you don't get that same type of, I guess, performance burnout or consumer burnout when you do headline your own tour because it's something different every time. It's experiencing, you know, Beyoncé fans, I'm sure we'll talk about this, but I think the beauty and what her Coachella performance was. Everyone knew the songs, right, we knew the music for the most part, but it, it was now just experiencing it in a different way and in a way that she wanted us to experience it. And unfortunately, I don't think artists get to do that in the same way with festivals they're not headlining. 


[00:33:05] Dan Runcie: Yeah. The Rolling Loud example always makes me think of Future. I always say that he has a low-key residency at that. I, I actually went back, and counted this. I forget how many Rolling Louds there have been, but at least 40% of them, he has been a headliner at.

[00:33:23] Dan Runcie: I mean, it's a high number and to your point, I mean, I'm sure that paycheck's great. I, I'm not concerned about, you know, Future from a buddy perspective. He is prolific, and, I mean, he had one of the best-selling albums so far this year, but yeah, to your point that is kind of, I think, Future is a model that clicks with that as well.

[00:33:42] Dan Runcie: He's going to put out music early and often. He's going to perform, and he's always going to be there. And I think for him it works, but it's just not going to be the same thing necessarily as. Beyoncé record or something like that.


[00:33:55] Denisha Kuhlor: You know, I'm curious, how do you think that impacts like an artist's elasticity, like, of course, with more and more artists selling their catalogs and just navigating the world as an artist very differently, how do you think that does impact their just elasticity in the music game overall? 

[00:34:12] Dan Runcie: I think it's twofold because I think that to one point, a lot of artists do feel like they have to keep the content machine turning. I think that's, that kinda line, lines up with Daniel Ek, Spotify CEO, and what he had said that was a polarizing statement at the time of you releasing music every three years, isn't going to be enough anymore. So I do think that someone like Future has lead into that and say, okay, I have this base and I know they're going to listen to everything that I put out, whatever I do it. So let me maximize that.

[00:34:49] Dan Runcie: And I think for someone like Future because as popular as he is with a particular demo, one, his mainstream popularity isn't quite where it was like when like DS2 came out in 2015. So he's definitely serving more of the large, but, you know, core fans. And I think just given some of the issues that people have about him, and, of course, we've all seen the memes about, you know, problematic Future sending, you know, the text to the, to the ex or whatever it is.

[00:35:20] Dan Runcie: Like, I don't think that he necessarily has the same marketability to let's say, go launch a, you know, huge, whatever it is, the same way that we see the Beyoncé or Rihanna do it. That doesn't mean he can't, he can obviously still has the platform. So I do think for him and even someone like an NBA YoungBoy who, you know, is even younger, then releasing music early and often kind of works for them because they may not get, you know, like, the big deal from whatever company wanting to partner with them, but they could reach their fans directly. So they're going to maximize that. So I think it's a little different though, when you are a Beyoncé or you are a Rihanna where, you know, there's so many other things you're doing, so when you release music, you do want it to hit because you want it to have this halo effect over everything else that you're doing.


[00:36:06]

Dan Runcie: There's anomalies to this, of course, I mean, or not anomalies, but I think some folks will do it differently. I mean, Drake is still going to give you a release every year, every other year. Kanye West has likely been doing the same, but I do think that that's still different than, you know, how like Future's going about it.

[00:36:23] Denisha Kuhlor: Agreed. Agreed. I wonder 10 years from now or 15 years from now if Future is still touring or even releasing music, what that relationship looks like, and even what a tour would look like given the brevity of music he's put out. 

[00:36:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. To be honest, I think he likely will, just a matter of like, you know, what does it look like? How big and like, you know, like, the dynamics there. I recently posed the question on Twitter, which artist do you expect to still be releasing music when they're 70 plus years old? I don't think many people mentioned him, but I would definitely put him in that category. I feel like not too far away from 40. I do think that, you know, he loves this, for better or worse, and I feel like he'll likely continue. 

[00:37:06] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, in, in rap, it's still so new, which is crazy that we have just seen enough examples of that. And so these probably, or artists like Future will be those, those examples for us to look back at.

[00:37:20] Dan Runcie: Definitely. And I think so much of this, with this whole conversation, we're talking about the relationship between fans and how fans really help you format what you're doing and how to really set the framework for your career. And this aligns with the work that you're doing now. You recently launched and, and announce the company you have with Stan that is helping artists have a more fan-focused approach to their careers. So can you talk a bit more about that? 

[00:37:45] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So I recently decided to go full-time on a music tech startup called Stan, focused on audience engagement infrastructure, so really to help artists understand their audiences at a micro and macro level with the goal of providing better fan experiences. I kind of think it's crazy in some ways that every industry that wants to encourage a repeatable customer behavior has a loyalty program, but unfortunately, artists have very fragmented loyalty programs. And of course, the rise of NFTs and specific things as it relates to streaming platforms or even email lists. We've seen artists make great attempts, I think at doing and running really effective programs, but I really want to add more, more science to the arts to create, if you will, moments of magic on a greater scale. So artists can better connect with their fan bases. 

[00:38:36] Dan Runcie: Nice. Where did the inspiration come from? I'm sure a lot of it is things we talked about in this conversation.

[00:38:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, so much of it. Interestingly enough, it has come from writing. I long admired, of course, Trapital and, and other platforms. And really just wanted to explore, like, the conversation of fan relationships. And I think fan relationships have evolved so much, but wanted to kind of like push the, push the envelope in terms of what was being explored as it relates to the fan-artist relationship and also highlight how sophisticated fans are of course, with, you know, the rise of, of stans and how much they're covered. I think that people think of fans as just like, okay, like a casual listener and then the overzealous fan. And I think that's such a, that's such a gap and fandoms operate in such a sophisticated way, that we really needed to push the conversation on what that looked like.

[00:39:25] Denisha Kuhlor: And as a result, the more I kept writing, the greater, like the problem became to me in the sense of, I think there's a lot of really, really amazing platforms designed to, you know, be direct to fan and connect the artists to the fan. But for anybody that's in any type of relationship business, I think it feels a little used car salesman to, like, try and extract money, like immediately, like, Hey, I just met you, like, give me this thing. And so I felt like there was a, an over-focus on the monetization of fan bases. Before fan bases were frankly strong enough to, to survive that monetization. So I kind of wanted to take it back a step to say, if you have a really strong relationship, relationships are everything, right? You'll be able to survive and not even just survive, thrive, because you can withstand volatility and maybe even turmoil.

[00:40:13] Dan Runcie: So what does it look like from the artist's perspective? Like, if I wanted get involved, like, what does that engagement look like? 

[00:40:19] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah. Yeah. So we're currently in the experimentation phase playing around with products and experiments that allow us to hit product-market fit. We're gearing up for a beta. So I love to talk to any artists that think really intensely about connecting with their fans. But ideally, we love to work with artists that, one, want to create, like, what I call moments of magic. And so like some great examples is J Cole, right? Like, not only the Dollar & A Dream Tour,, but going to, going to this fan's graduations or how do you actively and naturally involve yourself in your fan's life in a way that feels authentic and encourages a bidirectional relationship.

[00:40:55] Denisha Kuhlor: As a result, a lot of the work that we're doing is analyzing artists and their current data as well as tapping into, into new data sets as a result of creating games, as well as just different forms for artists to connect with their fans. So any artist that, one, thinks deeply about this, that wants to understand their data better across multiple platforms. We, we'd love to talk to you, especially as we work with artists on an ad hoc basis to gear up for the launch of the platform. 

[00:41:23] Dan Runcie: Makes sense. I mean, as we both know, this type of need is more crucial than ever, and there's so much data that can be misleading or misunderstood as you've talked about before you can't just go on a follower account. You can't just go on Spotify listens. Some of these things correlate, but a lot of them don't. 

[00:41:41] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, it's so true. You know, I think Spotify Wrapped is always so interesting to me in the sense that it's great, right? And what became even more interesting was when fans, fans, of course, post, but then to see artists post, right?

[00:41:54] Denisha Kuhlor: And kind of what that meant for them and the excitement. And so there were things that I felt like off the bat, like, certain artists expected to get, right, you expected to have every country represented when it came to countries listened or just certain things represented, but I thought a lot about it.

[00:42:08] Denisha Kuhlor: And I was just like, that one snapshot into a portion of your fan base. Like, what does that tell you from an actionable data perspective? But I guess before we can even know how relevant or how much you can guide your actions around those results is how much of your fan base is on Spotify? Like you mentioned, in actual, like, a lot of music is listened through downloads or partnerships with telcos and other streaming platforms.

[00:42:31] Denisha Kuhlor: People use Audiomack, and Boomplay, and different streaming platforms. And so without, like, knowing an aggregate, what your Spotify listeners even represent when it comes to your audience? It can also be a slippery slope to make directions based on the most advanced data sets. If they're not really replicative of your whole audience.

[00:42:51] Dan Runcie: Right. Because I think one of the things that I often see with Spotify specifically is that people will, especially in the US, they'll use it as like a rule of thumb to say that, okay, you see the data that comes to you from Spotify, either multiply it by three or three and a half or four. And maybe that gives you a rough idea of how big the overall streaming market is for a particular artist, but that works in the US that doesn't work for artists elsewhere. So being able to see those distinctions, especially considering how global the music industry is, that's where people can actually make actionable insight. 

[00:43:25] Denisha Kuhlor: Exactly. Exactly. I think, you know, artists are really starting to approach their careers from a global standpoint will be really, really helpful moving forward.

[00:43:33] Denisha Kuhlor: And as they consider the elasticity of their own careers, especially given that, like, smaller markets can be more forgiving, right? And so even if you don't want to necessarily go through the 50-city 500-person venue tour, what about going to just a smaller market globally and getting that feedback, being able to perform, really connecting with your fans that way too.

[00:43:54] Denisha Kuhlor: I completely agree with you. I think that artists are just going to really have to be global from day one and as a result just because you're familiar with consuming music in a certain way, isn't necessarily how your entire fan base is going to do it. So becoming more sophisticated around what that looks like and how you can best work with those platforms will be really, really advantageous moving forward.

[00:44:14] Denisha Kuhlor: Definitely. 

[00:44:15] Dan Runcie: And you're in a great position to be able to do that. So I feel like the timing lines up well with this. So for you specifically, for the people that either are listening, or whether they're artists or working with artists, where can they follow up? Where could they go? 

[00:44:28] Denisha Kuhlor: Yeah, yeah. So you can find me on Denisha Kuhlor at Twitter, love Twitter so always on there. And then you can just shoot me an email at d@stan.fan as well. 

[00:44:38] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. Denisha, this was great. I feel like we covered a bunch of things that are happening right now in the industry and yeah, very timely. So thanks again for coming. 

[00:44:47] Denisha Kuhlor: Of course. Thanks for having me. 

[00:44:49] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.



]]> 2724 no Sherrese Clarke Soares Explains Why Content Is Queen https://www.trapital.com/podcast “Content is queen” is the mantra of this week’s Trapital’s guest, Sherrese Clarke Soares. The phrase has a double-meaning. For one, it’s the heart of her investment firm, HarbourView Equity Partners, which specializes in acquiring content across the entertainment, sports, and media sectors. But on a personal level, the phrase also represents her unique place in the industry as a rare Black and female founder.  Sherrese founded HarbourView in 2021. This came on the heels of founding Tempo Music and ten-plus years at Morgan Stanley. These experiences have put Sherrese front and center with IP, understanding not only its financial incentives, but its cultural value too. HarbourView is backed with up to $1 billion in investment capital from Apollo Global Management. Within months of its founding, HarbourView acquired the music catalog of Luis Fonsi and with that, the decade-defining hit “Despacito.” It was the latest splash in the booming business of catalog sales that ecliped over $5 billion in 2021 alone.  What’s Sherrese's strategy with Fonsi’s catalog plus other IP acquisitions? You’ll want to listen to the full episode to find out, plus a whole lot more. Here’s everything we covered during our interview: [3:27] Why Sherrese Created Her Own Firm, HarbourView [6:55] Why HarbourView Team Looks Different Than Any Other Investment Group [10:31] Hip-Hop Investments Being Overlooked [15:28] Why HarbourView Acquired Luis Fonsi’s Music Catalog [17:21] HarbourView’s “Forever Owner” Strategy To IP [22:47] Owning IP In web3  [24:22] Owning IP Vs. Owning Distribution  [28:24] Current Market Conditions Impact On Catalog Investments [33:39] Music Industry In Better Shape Now Compared To 2008 Recession [35:54] Building A Next-Gen Asset Management Firm [37:25] Opportunities In Reggae & Ska [39:11] Importance of Mentorship in Private Equity Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Sherrese Clarke Soares, @sherreseclarkesoares   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We want to be one of the largest buyers, if not the largest buyer, of music catalogs, but we're also investing outside of music in how do we create cross-pollination across the music that we own to other places where we may invest as well. So we think there's lots and lots and lots of upside around owning premium content. So we are very focused on being kind of as close to the IP as possible or the IP creation or development, or actually ownership of the IP, because we think that that's going to drive huge, huge upside.  [00:00:27] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:54] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Sherrese Clarke Soares. She's the founder and CEO of HarbourView Equity Partners, a global investment firm that's focused on premium content across the entertainment, sports, and media sectors. You may know the name from some of the music catalog acquisitions she's done a couple months back. [00:01:14] Dan Runcie: The firm acquired Luis Fonsi's catalog and got one of the biggest hits of the 21st century with Despacito. So we talked about that and we talked about Sherrese's strategy more broadly for the firm. One of the things that has always stuck out to me about the music investment space is that you don't see as many big deals for hip-hop, R&B, or genres outside of the US, especially considering how popular all of these are in the streaming era and likely will continue to be. [00:01:43] Dan Runcie: So we talked about how Sherrese's firm is focused on the wide space and how she sees us as an opportunity that others may not. And we talked more broadly about the entertainment space, what some of the investment opportunities that HarbourView is looking at outside of music and other emerging trends as they relate to the main streaming services and other technology platforms and more. Here's my conversation with Sherrese. All right. Today we're joined by Sherrese Clarke Soares and you've been a high-demand guest. So I'm glad we could finally do this.  [00:02:16] Sherrese Clarke Soares: I'm glad we can, too. Thank you for having me.  [00:02:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think one of the reasons people want to hear from you is because you've accomplished a lot in your career both Morgan Stanley and at Tempo, and now you have your own firm and it'll be great to hear a bit about the journey and specifically that moment that you knew that you wanted to break out and launch your own company in this space.  [00:02:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, absolutely. Well, super great to be here. I guess just the journey is, you know, it's like one of those things that people talk about, it's the overnight success, 20 years in the making. [00:02:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: It's been something that I've wanted to do for a long time, which is to be an investor in the entertainment space, entertainment media, you know, sports, even, because of how much I believe in the power and the impact of what content does. You know, obviously, it brings stories across the world and has the ability to shape hearts and minds. [00:03:07] Sherrese Clarke Soares: But it also brings joy, like so much of what we all know and have fond memories of, especially when it comes to music are things that are momentous and important times in our lives. And so something that's so core to the human condition to me is nothing but a great investment opportunity. So that's, I think, you know, that's, I guess, one kind of critical piece of the journey. [00:03:27] Sherrese Clarke Soares: As it relates to starting HarbourView HarbourView. I started in January, 2021 after resigning from my post as CEO of Tempo Music, which was a platform that I founded out of work I was doing at Morgan Stanley. There's so many things, you know, as I was putting together that platform, when I was at Morgan Stanley, I got multiple offers from different investors. [00:03:46] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We ultimately chose to work with Providence Equity Partners because of their intimate knowledge of the media space. But one of the things, I guess for me was I was, it was my first deal in terms of becoming an investor and finally getting to do what I wanted to do. So I didn't really, you know, in hindsight, negotiate the best deal for myself as it relates to, you know, economics for something that I was building with my own two hands. [00:04:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And it basically started from a blank sheet of paper in 2015 when I was pregnant with my son, actually. And so I really finally had this moment and this aha moment of, one, there's an opportunity, people are looking for people who, who are like me and have the track record that I have to back me and I was getting a lot of actually reverse inquiry when I was at Tempo for investors to back what I had built a lot of unsolicited inbounds. [00:04:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And that was largely because I had spent so much time trying to curate investors to really support what it was that I was looking to build. And so that started to give me some confidence that, you know, that there was really an appetite for the firm and the vision that I was looking to build. And so I resigned in December of 2020 with, you know, the idea that I really was going to build a firm that was bigger than music. [00:05:05] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Tempo was also only designed to be a music rights acquisition platform. And I really wanted to do music 'cause I love it, but also do things outside of music as well. So I launched HarbourView and went about the business of finding the right partner for us. We knew we wanted to partner with a large scale asset manager to really turbo charge and accelerate our growth. [00:05:25] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so we did that in October of 2021, where we launched a billion-dollar partnership with Apollo, but importantly, we are independent. We're an independent firm and we're able to retain that independent and that discretion over how we invest, how we think about building out the firm, which is great. And so was able to do that in October, launched officially in October in terms of our capital partnership and have been out, telling our story to the world and really looking at building a coalition that believes in our vision, which is in identifying opportunities that other people have a hard time seeing because they kind of only invest from their own, from their native walks. Whereas we, by virtue of being a diverse team, we believe in the power of thinking about things differently. [00:06:08] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so, so that's what we've been up to. It's really exciting. I'm joined by exceptional humans that have joined me on this journey. We're all really aligned to the vision and the mission with all of my team, including my assistant, really participating in the equity upside of the business, where 13 full-time professionals, soon to be a 14th. [00:06:26] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And, you know, we've been pretty busy since October. We've made a number of investments, some of which we've announced, some of which we are about to announce. And so, continue to look forward to that. And we're, you know, pretty active in the market while also starting to think about investment opportunities outside of music, which we're really, which we're really, really jazzed about. [00:06:42] Dan Runcie: Could you talk a bit more about the opportunities specifically for your diverse team and the opportunities that investors saw in you that you feel that the market wasn't focusing on?  [00:06:55] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah. So I would say, like, one of the things that's critical to us is obviously, you know, we are who we are. And so, you know, when you look at us as an investment team, we very naturally look different than any other investment team that you will see. [00:07:07] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like, the collage of who we are as a team is always like my proudest moment of a page when I'm showing into anyone in the world and telling our story, because we are really sort of, you know, I know you're Jamaican, too, by heritage. And so, you know, as, as you know, we have a statement "Out of many, one people," and so it really does kind of resonate with that. [00:07:26] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so from that perspective, that was really resonating with how we talked to investors, including Apollo, which was great. They saw that in us immediately, but also how we think about the world. We think differently. And we think our difference is our strength. And so what that means is that we have approached the opportunities based with a very data-focused mindset. [00:07:45] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And that data-focused mindset actually leads to the truth, which the truth is that we own a lot of things that are in the Latin space, and the hip-hop space, and R&B space, which we're all really proud of because we also are showing very quantitatively and, with data, that that's where the real growth and the real opportunity is in our perspective. [00:08:04] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so we tend to try to, again, lead with this idea that the world is round and not flat. And what we mean by that is a lot of investors tend to do the same playbook over and over again, or a template that, you know, many other people do. We're very focused on building a pathway that allows us to not take anything for granted to not come into a situation with preconceived notions, to really try to identify what we think our value add is to an opportunity set, whether it's in music or otherwise and how we really can envision the future. [00:08:40] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And that really, I think, has been resonating with investors, with our partners because it is a differentiated approach to how other people are thinking about it. In the music space, obviously, there's a lot of great firms, many of whom we admire who have done really fantastic things, but we just differentiate our strategy from that. [00:08:57] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We are not aiming to be a music operator, a music label, or a publishing business, or otherwise. We are really aiming to be a really strategic partner from an economic perspective and financial perspective to the overall ecosystem. So that really allows us to think creatively and to do really creative things and really be respectful of the fact that, you know, the creative ecosystem itself has gone through its own journey, has offers and brings a lot to the table. But in a similar vein, we as seasoned investors bring a lot to the table, too. And so we're able to engage in the way that's differentiated from others that are kind of purely looking at it from an operating perspective.  [00:09:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We're looking at it from, like, okay, how can we join forces together and really drive upside for both sides of the equation? So we, we typically try to, in anything that we do, any investment that we make, structure how everybody benefits on a go-forward basis together.  [00:09:49] Dan Runcie: I'm very glad you're focused on this piece because one thing that I've always scratched my head at is I've talked to other people who are investors in this space. [00:09:58] Dan Runcie: And I would always hear from them specifically about hip-hop music that, oh, well, it isn't mature enough. And they don't feel like it's proven or they feel like it's too disposable or they feel like sampling is a challenge. But if you look at streaming data, which a lot of this has been influenced by, especially with the current wave of acquisitions. [00:10:18] Dan Runcie: It's hip-hop, it's Latin music where we think about the genres that have shown the power and the potential, especially on a worldwide perspective. I'm like, you can't overlook this forever. So, you know, in many ways it's their loss. [00:10:31] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Well, mostly, yeah, you know, people do what they're very comfortable with. So it's like things that they know, see, and hear, which, you know, I get it. And I'm okay with, I guess, to a point. You know, I'm excited about everything in the classic rock space, as much as anybody else. Like, I'm a huge, I'm a huge fan of all of it, like, grew up on all of it, enjoyed it, listened to it, but I'm also a child that was raised in the hip-hop era. [00:10:53] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like hip-hop is going to be 50 years old next year. Like, that's not an immature thing. You know, I don't think we're calling 50-year-old people children, in which case, there is a lot that underlines it. And so it's all about how you sift through the data, how you look at what your, what you think is driving and where you think things are going to go, which gives us a point of view that we think again, is differentiated. [00:11:14] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We have a lot of things in our portfolio that we believe to be really strong for the culture, really strong from a legacy perspective. And we think has really extraordinary growth potential for a variety of different reasons. And so we don't believe that view. And again, we don't have any preconceived notions about what's going to work and what isn't going to work. [00:11:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We really try to be genre-agnostic. So, you know, we own a little bit of everything. Like, we're closing this week, a couple of things in the country market, which we're really excited about. We've closed things in the rock market, which we're really excited about, but we are never going to ignore genres such as hip-hop, R&B, et cetera. [00:11:52] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Latin are places where it may be a very local experience. Like, one of the artists in our catalog is Eslabon Armando. And last week, he crossed a billion streams and was on the cover of Billboard. And he is a Mexican, local Mexican artist, and one of the best in the game, but not very well known here in the US market or in the, you know, pop, you know, the, the pop market, if you will. [00:12:16] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so just giving a sense for there is a lot to local music, and so I'm sure you can, you know, commiserate, like growing up, what did you listen to on Saturday and Sunday morning in your house? It was not necessarily, like, you know, what was playing on the radio. It was what your mom and dad grew up to. [00:12:34] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Those rhythmic sounds of soca or reggae or local, which is very local music, but there are billions of people like us around the world that connect with a very differentiated experience. And so we're really bullish on things like that because we know that just, we just know that intrinsically based on who we are, that this is popular music. [00:12:54] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we also know intrinsically that, you know, technology is bringing broadband globally to a lot of places where it hasn't existed before. So you intersect those two things and you see growth. And we again drive through data to come to these conclusions, which again, leads us with what I think is the best outcome, a data-driven, you know, evidential support and not just an empathetic one, that this is all real. [00:13:19] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we have known it for a long time in technology has democratized it, such that we can see it evidenced in a real way.  [00:13:27] Dan Runcie: You mentioned the data-driven approach a few times. Is there anything that the data is telling you that you see as a huge opportunity coming up soon that you think that others may be overlooking or not thinking about as much? [00:13:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, 100%. I don't share that though, because then everybody starts, the next thing, you know, people start chasing down my sources. Yeah, no, 100%. That's I think how we, that's how we're differentiated. That's how we find differentiated opportunities. And, you know, we think about that every single day. So we are constantly building our own proprietary data system that we love. [00:14:05] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we don't think that anybody else has anything nearly matched to it. I started to build one at my previous platform, but didn't have the resources candidly to actually do it. And now that I do have the resources, we've built it out full sum in a way that we can analyze things from back, you know, backwards and forwards, including historical information all the way through to, you know, tapping into what's happening in real-time platforms, such as, you know, Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, et cetera. [00:14:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So it gives us a lot of really great insight, which again, I think just makes us approach this a little bit differently than even my predecessor. So, yeah, so it allows us to see a lot of stuff. And again, if I told you what I was seeing, then everybody would just try to go copycat it. What they probably can't copycat is how we've been able to build a really great platform around data analytics that we just continue to invest in. [00:14:55] Sherrese Clarke Soares: But that's who we are as a DNA, right? Like other people kind of use their DNA, the lead, their platforms, and they have great success in different ways, but our DNA is really around leading around that stuff. And so we're excited about that.  [00:15:07] Dan Runcie: I hear you on that. And yeah, definitely don't want to give away any of the trade secrets, but let's talk about one of the deals we can talk about, which is the Luis Fonsi catalog, which your company had acquired. With that, you got one of the biggest hits of the 21st century with Despacito. What did it take to make that deal happen?  [00:15:28] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think what it takes is a couple of things. The first is obviously again, leading with data, having a sense for the marketplace. Again, going back to like a local language, Spanish language song. It's going to resonate with a lot of people. They may not be people that you individually know, but it resonates with a lot of people. [00:15:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So from a thesis perspective, completely right on point. And secondly, like just spending time with Luis and the team, Angie and Denny and others, you know, we really connected on what we want, what at least what I personally want HarbourView to be, and how impactful I want it to be for the entertainment business overall, but particularly for recognizing the impact, the cultural impact that we, and I say, we like broadly people of color have in the world. [00:16:17] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And again, we buy everything, but it's important to me for that to be a level playing field. So I think it was really just spending time with the team, working through sort of the thesis, letting them know who we were thematically as a firm, what we care about. And then that really allowed us to sort of see a really great path together. [00:16:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And, you know, again, we built in partnership into that deal as we do into every deal. And that allows us to basically, he wants us to win. We want him to win, keep rooting for each other. And all the deals that we have in our portfolio, and we've closed close to 30 deals already so far, are all kind of very similar and kind of pick up on those very same themes of like, look, the things that we know and love are really impactful and important. And you're seeing it drive through, drive through data.  [00:17:03] Dan Runcie: And after you acquire a catalog like this or any of the other ones in your portfolio, what does the post-sale activity on the asset look like? I know that in this space, a lot of people have talked about whether some investors are buy and hold versus trying to maximize the asset themselves. [00:17:21] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, absolutely. So the post-sale is, you know, look, we aim to be the forever owners of these assets and we look to provide return to our partners in various ways that we think is differentiated and one that we believe there's nobody better than our team to actually deliver. So we think about, like, how to create liquidity events while still maintaining the ownership ultimately of the catalog itself. [00:17:47] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so some of that will be in portfolio strategy. And so portfolio strategy for us is like, yeah, we're building an accumulating, a really huge library. We want to be one of the largest buyers, if not the largest buyer, of music catalogs, but we're also investing outside of music in how do we create cross pollination across the music that we own to other places where we may invest as well. So we think there's lots and lots and lots of upside around owning premium content. So we are very focused on being kind of as close to the IP as possible or the IP creation or development, or actually ownership of the IP, because we think that that's going to drive huge, huge upside. [00:18:24] Dan Runcie: And I imagine that too, that extends into the multimedia aspect too. And obviously why you don't just want to have holded music. You're looking at other assets too, because obviously IP and music's there, but there's so much potential. You're looking at movies and TV shows and just where everything's going with video streaming on that front. [00:18:42] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Absolutely. But also think about this, two things. One is, again, my team is incredible, just again, an exceptional group of people, but they're athletes, they're not one-trick ponies. And so, you know, they really can think about things across the space. The other thing that's also happening as we engage deeper and deeper in the music space is the same thing is true from the parties that we partner with on the catalog side. [00:19:04] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like, many have ideas of things that they want to do way beyond music. And sometimes people, you know, tend to hold a lot of that in a box. But if you look at, you know, culture, culture is led by music in a lot of ways. And so you can see that music is like, you know, kind of a leading indicator and that being a leading indicator helps you to really identify where to go next. [00:19:28] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so we think that all of these things work very symbiotically together in giving our partners and our partners on the other side is people who are looking to invest in, you know, they, you know, engage in music engagement as well because they engage in music as it relates to how you're thinking about developing either new product on the film and television side and, or integrating it into what they're putting together. [00:19:51] Sherrese Clarke Soares: You know, again, there's, you know, there's a soundtrack. Every movie, just think about the synergies that exist across both. And so we're very focused on really thinking holistically about the learnings that we get from really understanding the asset itself, understanding the entertainment asset itself and how we think that can apply in other spaces as well and really being very, very intentional about leveraging that knowledge across a wider pool and really creating some of that synergistic upside opportunity.  [00:20:19] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So that's how we think about it. And again, it's very differentiated than others who have been solely kind of a music operator with a fund vehicle that's attached to it or big firms that maybe only take kind of a point of view at one point in time on the relative value of the attractiveness of music. [00:20:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We are residents, I like to say. We are not tourist. And means that we're here to stay. Like, we like the neighborhood, this is our block. We know the lady down the street, we know the person up the street, people may move in and out, but we'll be here. This is our home and this space of really kind of thinking about how all these things work together. [00:20:55] Dan Runcie: And I'm sure it's an exciting time on that front too, with just all the other emerging IP-related opportunities, whether it's with metaverse in gaming or other related things. What is that piece have been like?  [00:21:08] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, listen, I mean, I think it's really interesting. I think we're at early innings, you know, as my dear friend Morgan DeBaun, who's a CEO and founder of Blavity, likes to say, we're sort of in the MySpace era of Web 3.0, right? So like we all had a MySpace account and we all thought that was going to be it for social media. But truthfully, obviously we're looking at Facebook, and Instagram, and TikTok, and other things as sort of like what became the mature execution businesses of what social media is. I think Web 3.0 and the metaverse and all that is probably in the same place. [00:21:36] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So super excited about the potential, but we're still really early on what it will look like over time. But I think it's going to be huge for anybody who owns premium IP because that's, you know, again, how do we all decide how we're going to engage? We're going to engage because they're going to be sort of the ability to engage with anchoring around IP that we all kind of know love and care about. [00:21:57] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So I think it's going to be a really interesting time and an exciting time, exciting time as it relates to sort of the next frontier for a digital distribution. I mean, I'd like to tell people like, it's 2022. In 2012, which was 10 years ago, we weren't talking about streaming, we were talking about downloads and maybe sort of this disruptive technology where people were, obviously, at that point, pirating music. But we weren't talking about, you know, streaming leading how we consume both video and audio content. [00:22:25] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And 10 years from now, I think, streaming will be, is still a big part of the business model, but we've been talking about something else, too, and we don't know exactly what that is. But what we do know and if we look at over decades, not just the last 10 years, multiple decades, is that as distribution platforms pull up IPs at the center of it and really drives how those distribution platforms, you know, gain eyeballs, right? [00:22:47] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like, I don't know if you remember back in the day when you were all growing up and, you know, if you had Comcast or, you know, I don't remember all the cable services anymore, AT&T. Every once in a while, there'd be a dispute between ESPN and AT&T and the screen would go black and you couldn't get your sports content. [00:23:03] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And who won over time, you know, the content owners, ESPNs and others, who were providing this kind of premium content to allow us all to pay a hundred dollars a month or $200 a month or whatever it is that we pay for cable to exist, you know, really kind of what we're able to command rates and outcomes. And so if you think about that as sort of, again, even a leading indicator around the power of content, this is sort of what we believe in intrinsically. And we believe that that's going to be applied in a Web 3.0 and the metaverse world as well.  [00:23:34] Dan Runcie: That's a great point. And I mean, I couldn't agree more that, I think about a question I posed to a few people a few months back. It was on whether they would rather own universal music group stock or Spotify stock. [00:23:47] Dan Runcie: And the answers were pretty split. And I think I was a bit surprised and I was like, you wouldn't want to have the underlying asset that is having all of these other distribution deals with all of these other growing platforms as they are, you would rather take the bet on the one. And of course, you know, there's a case to be made on the other side, too. [00:24:03] Dan Runcie: But to your point about ESPN and the cable services, the underlying content does end up being the one that triumphs.  [00:24:10] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think that's right. And I mean, listen, like Spotify positively changed the way that the business model and was like the leader and so kudos to Dan Ek and everything that he's built. [00:24:22] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so I think there is something to being kind of at the forefront of changing a distribution model because there's obviously a lot of room, and it's hard for people to catch up as we are seeing, and obviously why they in so much share. But just to be kind of a generic distribution provider, that's less interesting to me personally, because you get squeezed on both sides. [00:24:41] Sherrese Clarke Soares: You got to pay for the content and then you got to, you got to compete on price with your subscriber base. And so that's just to squeeze into the middle. That's just pure math. But when you see like platforms like, and we know Netflix is going through its adjustment period now, but when you see platforms like Netflix and Spotify, what ends up happening with them because they lead. [00:24:58] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And they're so far ahead as it relates to redefining the category, that's why they end up capturing a lot of value. So I hear the debate and understand the debate philosophically, but if you're just asking me, like, would I rather own IP versus would I rather own distribution, it's IP for me all day. Now, if somebody was going to redefine what distribution looks like, then, and in a way that we think is going to be a category killer, that may be a great place to invest because as we've seen, you know, distribution models that, that lead the category and disrupt actually win, for at least an extended period of time. [00:25:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's a great point at Spotify, too. I feel like they did change the space in what they've been able to do, and even how they've continued to diversify their own income streams. I think they've shown it had the proof points, you know, of what works. And I think similar to Netflix, to some extent, you know, they're changing a few things just given with the way things are, but. [00:25:52] Dan Runcie: I feel like it's an age old thing. I think one other aspect, I think about, too, just given you mentioned 2012 versus 2022, here we are now. And what the next decade will look like. I look at an app like TikTok where it wasn't a few years ago, where not that many people were talking about it, except for, you know, the early users. [00:26:10] Dan Runcie: And now it has a billion monthly active users. Fastest app to get there. That just means that that timeframe of getting to a billion monthly active users for the next thing is likely going to be even shorter than it was for TikTok.  [00:26:23] Sherrese Clarke Soares: That's right. And by the way, and now TikTok is super influential on music that we all listen to, on advertising, on how people get exposed to different things. [00:26:32] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so, you know, the speed with which, to your point, getting to a billion active monthly users, you know, technology has really allowed to persist is incredible. And so I only think that'll get faster and faster and, you know, again, content, again, back to TikTok, like, you know, it's popularity was indexed off the back of music. [00:26:52] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so there's no denying that again, back to like, Seeing what's going to be the next thing. What's the next distribution model, what's the next use case will continue to proliferate. We've got inklings of things that exist now, whether it's out of home exercise or, you know, whether it's other social media platforms or whether it's gaming. [00:27:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So we've inklings of that, but it's all still really small in the grand scheme of the revenue pie. But to, you know, as we've discussed and to your point, like the speed with which technology is changing and moving forward, the next next thing may be on the horizon in the next two, three years, or maybe something that, again, we're not even talking about now in the way that we weren't really talking about TikTok in 2018 or 19. And so yes, technology will move quickly and the way to engage will continue to expand the monetization opportunities.  [00:27:42] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. The big opportunities there, especially on the longer term, but I'm wondering on the short term though, I've heard a few people talking about just where things are with the market. [00:27:52] Dan Runcie: We're recording this now June, 2022, and the overall market may not be quite as fraught as it was say, let's say October, November 2021, but there's still deals that we're seeing happening, especially on the investing side. And I'm hearing rumors about this Pink Floyd catalog getting nearly half a billion dollars potentially, but what's your take right now on where things are and whether or not the current market conditions will impact anything that we've seen on the catalog investment side?  [00:28:24] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think, listen, I think, you know, as interest rates rise and as relative value to other risk asset classes change, you may see people who are tourists, from an investor perspective, leave the space because they may say, okay, instead of investing in music, I'm going to invest in this other thing, which will decrease buyer demand and may put some weakness into the market. [00:28:50] Sherrese Clarke Soares: You know, so I think that being said, you know, people should expect that that may happen in the next few, next few years, or the next, you know, 12 to 18 months is probably a better time frame. But I would say that as it relates to the overall environment, whether it's inflation, supply chain, things of that nature, depending on how a business is positioned and the way that we buy we're positioned really well as a really great hedge to all of that. [00:29:17] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We don't really have the same exposure to that volatility. The price point, particularly in music from a consumer perspective is actually a really great value. And so we don't see a lot of churn expected. The way that consumers consume music is actually, you know, very accessible, even relative to video content, right? [00:29:37] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Because video content, you buy into platform, A, B, or C for the exclusive content they have on those respective platforms. Whereas in music, like you can pretty much listen to anything you want across all the platforms pretty homogenously. So that I think is, you know, proves to be a really great asset class, especially in this period of uncertainty, especially with the public equity markets being as volatile as it is. [00:30:01] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And, you know, people having, you know, a hard time getting a sense for where real value is with tech, valuations being as volatile as they are, because their indexed to the overall equity markets, public equity markets, et cetera, like things like what we do as illiquid, but also, you know, non-correlated for sure, but certainly also countercyclical really actually create a really great investment opportunity for people who are looking to reduce volatility or especially market volatility in their portfolio. [00:30:31] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So like, nothing's really changed for us in the last. You know, six to nine months since, for the portfolios that we own. Everything's continuing to come in as expected. We don't really see any, like, real top line impact. Whereas other businesses are seeing really top real top-line impact, they have wage inflation, they have supply chain issues. [00:30:49] Sherrese Clarke Soares: They've got obviously interest rates. They have overall market volatility. And so all that will create kind of near-term uncertainty for those companies and therefore for those company valuations, which we just don't have that same type of volatility. So we're actually really excited about, you know, the marketplace in the near term because we think we'll have a great, you know, we'll have, we have a lot of dry powder and, in having a lot of dry powder, we also are positioned in an opportunity where we have the opportunity to really kind of lean in. So, that's us  [00:31:21] Dan Runcie: Right. In a lot of ways, that was the pitch, I think, when a lot of these deals were happening, people were attracted to the non-correlated assets and here it is, right? Like, we're seeing what's happening elsewhere.  [00:31:34] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So a lot of times for entertainment, me being around the entertainment market from an investing and financing perspective for the better part of 20 years, you're always telling people how non-correlated it is, but usually you're kind of having this conversation and the market's all working together and in parallel. Well, what's been interesting about the last few years, starting with COVID is that you've been able to in real-time, see like, oh yeah, it really is non-correlated. Everything else is moving, you know, down into the left and we're moving up into the right because of the way that we consume, because you're basically, again, content in particular, but music even more special, is connected to the human condition. [00:32:13] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We all have a favorite song. You know, you're going to go to a birthday party or a wedding, you're going to hear music. You're going to go to a kid's performance at the end of the year, you're going to hear music. You know, we all have things that are attached to really important moments in our lives. And we use music and consume music more than we even realize. [00:32:30] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Sometimes we consume it very, you know, proactively, but a lot of times we can consume it very subconsciously. We go into a grocery store, we go to the gym, we step into our car, listen to the radio. Like, you're engaging with something that again, you know, is very pervasive. It's ephemeral, and it's everywhere, and it allows it to really kind of be resilient on a relative basis. [00:32:50] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think one of the differences too, between this timeframe, and let's say 2008, when there was the last recession, then the music industry itself, the business model and the state of the industry, just wasn't in the best place to begin with. Even beforehand, just given where things were with CD sales, and piracy, and digital downloads still, you know, and I guess you had, you still did have road tones and things like that at the time, but it wasn't where it is now, where yes, there has been a bit of a slide back with a lot of the stocks. However, music itself was in a strong place. So not only are you able to prove that out, there was an underlying business model here that continues to prove that people are going to listen to all of this music and consume all of this music, regardless of, you know, what may be happening outside. [00:33:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think, look, you know, at the end of the day, all businesses will go through business model adjustments. You know, the music business went through theirs. The film business just recently went through theirs. And I think it's coming on the other side of that, where that's why you're seeing all the major film studios have, you know, a something plus right. [00:33:57] Sherrese Clarke Soares: A Disney Plus you know, a Discover Plus, or what have you, and starting to move towards having a streaming model as well. So all businesses, no matter what shape or size, no matter what industry media or not will go through disruptions on how the business is consumed and will have these periods of time. [00:34:14] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And I don't think the entertainment business is, you know, somehow isolated from that or immune to. But what you will see over the long duration is again, back to kind of like the underlying consumption. I'd say the other point to make is like, it's hard to look at stock prices in this current context to really kind of give you kind of a good point of view on volatility or, and, or valuation only because it's a reference point, but we also have to remember that most of the public markets is actually managed by quantitative balancing if you will, but not necessarily active and, and active and thoughtful and you know, investing strategies. A lot of it is very passively managed. And so as there is volatility that injects itself in the overall markets themselves, you see a lot of rebalancing of portfolios that actually just bring prices down that may have nothing to do with the underlying fundamentals of the asset class itself. [00:35:07] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So that's just something to kind of keep in mind if you're looking at the stocks of universal Warner or any of the other kind of music traded stocks as well.  [00:35:14] Dan Runcie: The other big piece with this, and you mentioned this earlier, is just the distinction between the tourists and the residents here, right? These types of things end up impacting much more of the tourists who maybe, they only had one foot in and it doesn't take much, you know, ripple for them to move, or shadow, adjust, or downscale what they were doing, where the people that were actually building. Are still in it. I mean, I'm still seeing startup deals happening. [00:35:36] Dan Runcie: I'm still seeing rounds being closed. And I think that's, it's likely a signal to the people that were more so, you know, dedicated. And they're also just showed with the investment market, saw them as you know, from an opportunity perspective. So I, I think that's a, like you mentioned earlier, that's a big piece of this, too. [00:35:54] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think that's what's going to differentiate us. Like, you know, our goal for HarbourView is to build an institution not dissimilar to a lot of people who I admire in the private equity space. And you know, there's been a lot of great work that's been done over the last 35, 40 years building kind of private equity, asset management businesses. [00:36:12] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we're hopeful to build kind of the next generation of that, and really build a scale of industrialized force in the entertainment and media space from a sector perspective. And so as we think about that, we really think about who and what we want to be and being residents of the space is a big piece of that because that's where we can identify places where we can really dig in and support high quality management teams that we really like and want to engage with. [00:36:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: That's where we can really dig in support, really having a long term view over owning these assets and really find ways to identify value when other investors, again, kind of have a relative value in their mind and have moved on to the next greatest or the next hottest thing. We want to really be focused on really kind of you know, building, obviously, we have to deliver great returns. And the only way that we can scale to being an industrialized force is having top-quartile returns. So we aim for that just as much as anybody else, but we think that there's a really great way of doing that as being a part of the ecosystem, you know, fully entrenched in the world versus just being there to be opportunistic. [00:37:13] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. And yeah, shifting gears a little bit. One thing that I know is near and dear to both of us as Jamaicans, we got to talk about what the opportunities in reggae and ska look like.  [00:37:25] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, listen. I'm a huge, huge, huge, huge fan. Like, people often ask me, I often get the question in these interviews. Like, what are you listening to? And if I'm really honest, you know, the car ride is the Bob Marley radio station. Every day, my kids are constantly like, why do we always have to listen to Bob Marley? And then every morning the kids get up to Here Comes the Band and Machel Montano, that's the way to kind start our high-energy day. [00:37:50] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So we're big fans and believers. And to the extent that there's opportunities out there to acquire, we're happy, happy, happy to do it. You know, one thing for about us as a firm is we try not to be a pursuer. Like, if somebody's open to selling, we want to have every opportunity to, to take a look and to compete and to compete on the merits and put our best foot forward. [00:38:12] Sherrese Clarke Soares: But we are not interested in making anybody feel like we're after just being vultures or after their work. But I say all that to say like, we don't own a lot of reggae and ska or soca today. But if anybody who is of those audiences is listening and is excited to sell, we are happy, happy, happy participants and active participants in that market, but we're never going to, you know, go and try to, you know, force people to, to give up rights or sell rights that, that they may not be ready to. [00:38:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like it's only a matter of time before we see one of those deals or, or dance hall too. I feel like we're going to see it soon enough.  [00:38:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes, exactly. Exactly.  [00:38:49] Dan Runcie: Yeah. All right. Well, before we let you go, I do want to talk a bit about mentorship and apprenticeship 'cause I know that's something you've talked about in past interviews as well and just how important it is specifically in private equity and in finance and I want to hear how that's been really helpful for you and your career, and then extending that to the next generation.  [00:39:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, absolutely. So we're big believers in that. We're taking interns this summer, I believe one from Howard and one from HBS. So we're big believers in that. We're a small firm, but we're still having an intern class, which, you know, I think speaks to sort of this idea of giving people an opportunity to just come learn. [00:39:29] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And us to learn from them and what they can bring to the table. So, yes, it is absolutely 100%. And in an apprenticeship business, I've learned so much from so many really great people, inclusive of all the people that I've worked with over the years at Morgan Stanley. You know, tons, tons of people I could give you lots, a whole long laundry list of names of people there, or even all my new partners at Apollo have been just great in, you know, rolling up their sleeves and thinking about things with me as we've been, you know, looking at, you know, various opportunities. [00:40:01] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So that's been really great. I think one of the things that we're very focused on as well is really trying to be thoughtful about who we want to be as investors and how we want to, and how we think and we derive our own POV. So we, we try to basically take all the things that we want to take from those experiences, learning how to obviously, you know, do all the diligence and all that stuff are things that I've learned coming up, but having this strong conviction around what we care about, thematically, who we want to be as an investor, how we want to be seen as an investor, how we want to partner with management teams, I think has been things that we've sort of curated based on the experiences that we've had, but mentorship and apprenticeship has been huge part of my career and will never not be. [00:40:47] Sherrese Clarke Soares: I mean, I, I have mentors today, like even to negotiate my deal that I negotiated with Apollo, I had great people like the great Stu Bergen, who's a good friend of mine, who was a senior executive at Warner music, who really helped me to think through that. Or Robert Smith who's obviously the CEO and founder of Vista Equity Partners, or Damien Dwin who, as a long-time friend of mine, has started multiple platforms have really been people who have been in my ear on like, okay, you could do this. [00:41:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: This is how you negotiate that. This is the value that you bring, make sure you stand firm or this or that. And it's been just really great to always have those people around, but it's also really empowering to also, you know, set a vision for what it is and who it is that we want the firm to be, and what it is we want our investing style to be, and what it is we want to be to the marketplace. [00:41:30] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So, so it's been great. I've been very fortunate over the years to basically have exposure to people who have built great businesses, who have seen lots of things, seen lots of different points of adversity, but also made way, made time to pour back into me. And so we think it's responsible for us to pour back into others too. So we're very, very, very focused on that.  [00:41:53] Dan Runcie: Well said. And yeah, I think especially people hearing that you're still reaching out to people to help close the big deals that you have given everything that you've accomplished is just a reminder that yes, like this doesn't stop. Everyone that you see is learning. You know, this is a constant thing for sure.  [00:42:09] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes, 100%, 100% [00:42:11] Dan Runcie: Well, Sherrese. This is great. Thank you so much. I think people are going to definitely feel like they'll get a closer lens as to how these deals go down and just a lot of the thought behind it, but I'm sure people will also be listening and waiting for the headlines to see the next deals to drop as well. [00:42:27] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes. Yes. We'll be coming to a neighborhood, neighborhood near you soon.  [00:42:34] Dan Runcie: And if people do want to keep track, where can they follow HarbourView or where can they do that?  [00:42:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Follow HarbourView on LinkedIn, on Instagram also, and then, you know, check out our website. Yeah.  [00:42:46] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. Sherrese, thanks again. [00:42:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Thank you so much. So great to see you. Take care.  [00:42:51] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 01 Jul 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Sherrese Clarke Soares Explains Why Content Is Queen full Dan Runcie “Content is queen” is the mantra of this week’s Trapital’s guest, Sherrese Clarke Soares. The phrase has a double-meaning. For one, it’s the heart of her investment firm, HarbourView Equity Partners, which specializes in acquiring content across the entertainment, sports, and media sectors. But on a personal level, the phrase also represents her unique place in the industry as a rare Black and female founder.  Sherrese founded HarbourView in 2021. This came on the heels of founding Tempo Music and ten-plus years at Morgan Stanley. These experiences have put Sherrese front and center with IP, understanding not only its financial incentives, but its cultural value too. HarbourView is backed with up to $1 billion in investment capital from Apollo Global Management. Within months of its founding, HarbourView acquired the music catalog of Luis Fonsi and with that, the decade-defining hit “Despacito.” It was the latest splash in the booming business of catalog sales that ecliped over $5 billion in 2021 alone.  What’s Sherrese's strategy with Fonsi’s catalog plus other IP acquisitions? You’ll want to listen to the full episode to find out, plus a whole lot more. Here’s everything we covered during our interview: [3:27] Why Sherrese Created Her Own Firm, HarbourView [6:55] Why HarbourView Team Looks Different Than Any Other Investment Group [10:31] Hip-Hop Investments Being Overlooked [15:28] Why HarbourView Acquired Luis Fonsi’s Music Catalog [17:21] HarbourView’s “Forever Owner” Strategy To IP [22:47] Owning IP In web3  [24:22] Owning IP Vs. Owning Distribution  [28:24] Current Market Conditions Impact On Catalog Investments [33:39] Music Industry In Better Shape Now Compared To 2008 Recession [35:54] Building A Next-Gen Asset Management Firm [37:25] Opportunities In Reggae & Ska [39:11] Importance of Mentorship in Private Equity Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Sherrese Clarke Soares, @sherreseclarkesoares   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We want to be one of the largest buyers, if not the largest buyer, of music catalogs, but we're also investing outside of music in how do we create cross-pollination across the music that we own to other places where we may invest as well. So we think there's lots and lots and lots of upside around owning premium content. So we are very focused on being kind of as close to the IP as possible or the IP creation or development, or actually ownership of the IP, because we think that that's going to drive huge, huge upside.  [00:00:27] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.  [00:00:54] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Sherrese Clarke Soares. She's the founder and CEO of HarbourView Equity Partners, a global investment firm that's focused on premium content across the entertainment, sports, and media sectors. You may know the name from some of the music catalog acquisitions she's done a couple months back. [00:01:14] Dan Runcie: The firm acquired Luis Fonsi's catalog and got one of the biggest hits of the 21st century with Despacito. So we talked about that and we talked about Sherrese's strategy more broadly for the firm. One of the things that has always stuck out to me about the music investment space is that you don't see as many big deals for hip-hop, R&B, or genres outside of the US, especially considering how popular all of these are in the streaming era and likely will continue to be. [00:01:43] Dan Runcie: So we talked about how Sherrese's firm is focused on the wide space and how she sees us as an opportunity that others may not. And we talked more broadly about the entertainment space, what some of the investment opportunities that HarbourView is looking at outside of music and other emerging trends as they relate to the main streaming services and other technology platforms and more. Here's my conversation with Sherrese. All right. Today we're joined by Sherrese Clarke Soares and you've been a high-demand guest. So I'm glad we could finally do this.  [00:02:16] Sherrese Clarke Soares: I'm glad we can, too. Thank you for having me.  [00:02:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think one of the reasons people want to hear from you is because you've accomplished a lot in your career both Morgan Stanley and at Tempo, and now you have your own firm and it'll be great to hear a bit about the journey and specifically that moment that you knew that you wanted to break out and launch your own company in this space.  [00:02:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, absolutely. Well, super great to be here. I guess just the journey is, you know, it's like one of those things that people talk about, it's the overnight success, 20 years in the making. [00:02:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: It's been something that I've wanted to do for a long time, which is to be an investor in the entertainment space, entertainment media, you know, sports, even, because of how much I believe in the power and the impact of what content does. You know, obviously, it brings stories across the world and has the ability to shape hearts and minds. [00:03:07] Sherrese Clarke Soares: But it also brings joy, like so much of what we all know and have fond memories of, especially when it comes to music are things that are momentous and important times in our lives. And so something that's so core to the human condition to me is nothing but a great investment opportunity. So that's, I think, you know, that's, I guess, one kind of critical piece of the journey. [00:03:27] Sherrese Clarke Soares: As it relates to starting HarbourView HarbourView. I started in January, 2021 after resigning from my post as CEO of Tempo Music, which was a platform that I founded out of work I was doing at Morgan Stanley. There's so many things, you know, as I was putting together that platform, when I was at Morgan Stanley, I got multiple offers from different investors. [00:03:46] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We ultimately chose to work with Providence Equity Partners because of their intimate knowledge of the media space. But one of the things, I guess for me was I was, it was my first deal in terms of becoming an investor and finally getting to do what I wanted to do. So I didn't really, you know, in hindsight, negotiate the best deal for myself as it relates to, you know, economics for something that I was building with my own two hands. [00:04:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And it basically started from a blank sheet of paper in 2015 when I was pregnant with my son, actually. And so I really finally had this moment and this aha moment of, one, there's an opportunity, people are looking for people who, who are like me and have the track record that I have to back me and I was getting a lot of actually reverse inquiry when I was at Tempo for investors to back what I had built a lot of unsolicited inbounds. [00:04:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And that was largely because I had spent so much time trying to curate investors to really support what it was that I was looking to build. And so that started to give me some confidence that, you know, that there was really an appetite for the firm and the vision that I was looking to build. And so I resigned in December of 2020 with, you know, the idea that I really was going to build a firm that was bigger than music. [00:05:05] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Tempo was also only designed to be a music rights acquisition platform. And I really wanted to do music 'cause I love it, but also do things outside of music as well. So I launched HarbourView and went about the business of finding the right partner for us. We knew we wanted to partner with a large scale asset manager to really turbo charge and accelerate our growth. [00:05:25] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so we did that in October of 2021, where we launched a billion-dollar partnership with Apollo, but importantly, we are independent. We're an independent firm and we're able to retain that independent and that discretion over how we invest, how we think about building out the firm, which is great. And so was able to do that in October, launched officially in October in terms of our capital partnership and have been out, telling our story to the world and really looking at building a coalition that believes in our vision, which is in identifying opportunities that other people have a hard time seeing because they kind of only invest from their own, from their native walks. Whereas we, by virtue of being a diverse team, we believe in the power of thinking about things differently. [00:06:08] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so, so that's what we've been up to. It's really exciting. I'm joined by exceptional humans that have joined me on this journey. We're all really aligned to the vision and the mission with all of my team, including my assistant, really participating in the equity upside of the business, where 13 full-time professionals, soon to be a 14th. [00:06:26] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And, you know, we've been pretty busy since October. We've made a number of investments, some of which we've announced, some of which we are about to announce. And so, continue to look forward to that. And we're, you know, pretty active in the market while also starting to think about investment opportunities outside of music, which we're really, which we're really, really jazzed about. [00:06:42] Dan Runcie: Could you talk a bit more about the opportunities specifically for your diverse team and the opportunities that investors saw in you that you feel that the market wasn't focusing on?  [00:06:55] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah. So I would say, like, one of the things that's critical to us is obviously, you know, we are who we are. And so, you know, when you look at us as an investment team, we very naturally look different than any other investment team that you will see. [00:07:07] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like, the collage of who we are as a team is always like my proudest moment of a page when I'm showing into anyone in the world and telling our story, because we are really sort of, you know, I know you're Jamaican, too, by heritage. And so, you know, as, as you know, we have a statement "Out of many, one people," and so it really does kind of resonate with that. [00:07:26] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so from that perspective, that was really resonating with how we talked to investors, including Apollo, which was great. They saw that in us immediately, but also how we think about the world. We think differently. And we think our difference is our strength. And so what that means is that we have approached the opportunities based with a very data-focused mindset. [00:07:45] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And that data-focused mindset actually leads to the truth, which the truth is that we own a lot of things that are in the Latin space, and the hip-hop space, and R&B space, which we're all really proud of because we also are showing very quantitatively and, with data, that that's where the real growth and the real opportunity is in our perspective. [00:08:04] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so we tend to try to, again, lead with this idea that the world is round and not flat. And what we mean by that is a lot of investors tend to do the same playbook over and over again, or a template that, you know, many other people do. We're very focused on building a pathway that allows us to not take anything for granted to not come into a situation with preconceived notions, to really try to identify what we think our value add is to an opportunity set, whether it's in music or otherwise and how we really can envision the future. [00:08:40] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And that really, I think, has been resonating with investors, with our partners because it is a differentiated approach to how other people are thinking about it. In the music space, obviously, there's a lot of great firms, many of whom we admire who have done really fantastic things, but we just differentiate our strategy from that. [00:08:57] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We are not aiming to be a music operator, a music label, or a publishing business, or otherwise. We are really aiming to be a really strategic partner from an economic perspective and financial perspective to the overall ecosystem. So that really allows us to think creatively and to do really creative things and really be respectful of the fact that, you know, the creative ecosystem itself has gone through its own journey, has offers and brings a lot to the table. But in a similar vein, we as seasoned investors bring a lot to the table, too. And so we're able to engage in the way that's differentiated from others that are kind of purely looking at it from an operating perspective.  [00:09:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We're looking at it from, like, okay, how can we join forces together and really drive upside for both sides of the equation? So we, we typically try to, in anything that we do, any investment that we make, structure how everybody benefits on a go-forward basis together.  [00:09:49] Dan Runcie: I'm very glad you're focused on this piece because one thing that I've always scratched my head at is I've talked to other people who are investors in this space. [00:09:58] Dan Runcie: And I would always hear from them specifically about hip-hop music that, oh, well, it isn't mature enough. And they don't feel like it's proven or they feel like it's too disposable or they feel like sampling is a challenge. But if you look at streaming data, which a lot of this has been influenced by, especially with the current wave of acquisitions. [00:10:18] Dan Runcie: It's hip-hop, it's Latin music where we think about the genres that have shown the power and the potential, especially on a worldwide perspective. I'm like, you can't overlook this forever. So, you know, in many ways it's their loss. [00:10:31] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Well, mostly, yeah, you know, people do what they're very comfortable with. So it's like things that they know, see, and hear, which, you know, I get it. And I'm okay with, I guess, to a point. You know, I'm excited about everything in the classic rock space, as much as anybody else. Like, I'm a huge, I'm a huge fan of all of it, like, grew up on all of it, enjoyed it, listened to it, but I'm also a child that was raised in the hip-hop era. [00:10:53] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like hip-hop is going to be 50 years old next year. Like, that's not an immature thing. You know, I don't think we're calling 50-year-old people children, in which case, there is a lot that underlines it. And so it's all about how you sift through the data, how you look at what your, what you think is driving and where you think things are going to go, which gives us a point of view that we think again, is differentiated. [00:11:14] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We have a lot of things in our portfolio that we believe to be really strong for the culture, really strong from a legacy perspective. And we think has really extraordinary growth potential for a variety of different reasons. And so we don't believe that view. And again, we don't have any preconceived notions about what's going to work and what isn't going to work. [00:11:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We really try to be genre-agnostic. So, you know, we own a little bit of everything. Like, we're closing this week, a couple of things in the country market, which we're really excited about. We've closed things in the rock market, which we're really excited about, but we are never going to ignore genres such as hip-hop, R&B, et cetera. [00:11:52] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Latin are places where it may be a very local experience. Like, one of the artists in our catalog is Eslabon Armando. And last week, he crossed a billion streams and was on the cover of Billboard. And he is a Mexican, local Mexican artist, and one of the best in the game, but not very well known here in the US market or in the, you know, pop, you know, the, the pop market, if you will. [00:12:16] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so just giving a sense for there is a lot to local music, and so I'm sure you can, you know, commiserate, like growing up, what did you listen to on Saturday and Sunday morning in your house? It was not necessarily, like, you know, what was playing on the radio. It was what your mom and dad grew up to. [00:12:34] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Those rhythmic sounds of soca or reggae or local, which is very local music, but there are billions of people like us around the world that connect with a very differentiated experience. And so we're really bullish on things like that because we know that just, we just know that intrinsically based on who we are, that this is popular music. [00:12:54] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we also know intrinsically that, you know, technology is bringing broadband globally to a lot of places where it hasn't existed before. So you intersect those two things and you see growth. And we again drive through data to come to these conclusions, which again, leads us with what I think is the best outcome, a data-driven, you know, evidential support and not just an empathetic one, that this is all real. [00:13:19] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we have known it for a long time in technology has democratized it, such that we can see it evidenced in a real way.  [00:13:27] Dan Runcie: You mentioned the data-driven approach a few times. Is there anything that the data is telling you that you see as a huge opportunity coming up soon that you think that others may be overlooking or not thinking about as much? [00:13:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, 100%. I don't share that though, because then everybody starts, the next thing, you know, people start chasing down my sources. Yeah, no, 100%. That's I think how we, that's how we're differentiated. That's how we find differentiated opportunities. And, you know, we think about that every single day. So we are constantly building our own proprietary data system that we love. [00:14:05] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we don't think that anybody else has anything nearly matched to it. I started to build one at my previous platform, but didn't have the resources candidly to actually do it. And now that I do have the resources, we've built it out full sum in a way that we can analyze things from back, you know, backwards and forwards, including historical information all the way through to, you know, tapping into what's happening in real-time platforms, such as, you know, Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, et cetera. [00:14:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So it gives us a lot of really great insight, which again, I think just makes us approach this a little bit differently than even my predecessor. So, yeah, so it allows us to see a lot of stuff. And again, if I told you what I was seeing, then everybody would just try to go copycat it. What they probably can't copycat is how we've been able to build a really great platform around data analytics that we just continue to invest in. [00:14:55] Sherrese Clarke Soares: But that's who we are as a DNA, right? Like other people kind of use their DNA, the lead, their platforms, and they have great success in different ways, but our DNA is really around leading around that stuff. And so we're excited about that.  [00:15:07] Dan Runcie: I hear you on that. And yeah, definitely don't want to give away any of the trade secrets, but let's talk about one of the deals we can talk about, which is the Luis Fonsi catalog, which your company had acquired. With that, you got one of the biggest hits of the 21st century with Despacito. What did it take to make that deal happen?  [00:15:28] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think what it takes is a couple of things. The first is obviously again, leading with data, having a sense for the marketplace. Again, going back to like a local language, Spanish language song. It's going to resonate with a lot of people. They may not be people that you individually know, but it resonates with a lot of people. [00:15:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So from a thesis perspective, completely right on point. And secondly, like just spending time with Luis and the team, Angie and Denny and others, you know, we really connected on what we want, what at least what I personally want HarbourView to be, and how impactful I want it to be for the entertainment business overall, but particularly for recognizing the impact, the cultural impact that we, and I say, we like broadly people of color have in the world. [00:16:17] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And again, we buy everything, but it's important to me for that to be a level playing field. So I think it was really just spending time with the team, working through sort of the thesis, letting them know who we were thematically as a firm, what we care about. And then that really allowed us to sort of see a really great path together. [00:16:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And, you know, again, we built in partnership into that deal as we do into every deal. And that allows us to basically, he wants us to win. We want him to win, keep rooting for each other. And all the deals that we have in our portfolio, and we've closed close to 30 deals already so far, are all kind of very similar and kind of pick up on those very same themes of like, look, the things that we know and love are really impactful and important. And you're seeing it drive through, drive through data.  [00:17:03] Dan Runcie: And after you acquire a catalog like this or any of the other ones in your portfolio, what does the post-sale activity on the asset look like? I know that in this space, a lot of people have talked about whether some investors are buy and hold versus trying to maximize the asset themselves. [00:17:21] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, absolutely. So the post-sale is, you know, look, we aim to be the forever owners of these assets and we look to provide return to our partners in various ways that we think is differentiated and one that we believe there's nobody better than our team to actually deliver. So we think about, like, how to create liquidity events while still maintaining the ownership ultimately of the catalog itself. [00:17:47] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so some of that will be in portfolio strategy. And so portfolio strategy for us is like, yeah, we're building an accumulating, a really huge library. We want to be one of the largest buyers, if not the largest buyer, of music catalogs, but we're also investing outside of music in how do we create cross pollination across the music that we own to other places where we may invest as well. So we think there's lots and lots and lots of upside around owning premium content. So we are very focused on being kind of as close to the IP as possible or the IP creation or development, or actually ownership of the IP, because we think that that's going to drive huge, huge upside. [00:18:24] Dan Runcie: And I imagine that too, that extends into the multimedia aspect too. And obviously why you don't just want to have holded music. You're looking at other assets too, because obviously IP and music's there, but there's so much potential. You're looking at movies and TV shows and just where everything's going with video streaming on that front. [00:18:42] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Absolutely. But also think about this, two things. One is, again, my team is incredible, just again, an exceptional group of people, but they're athletes, they're not one-trick ponies. And so, you know, they really can think about things across the space. The other thing that's also happening as we engage deeper and deeper in the music space is the same thing is true from the parties that we partner with on the catalog side. [00:19:04] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like, many have ideas of things that they want to do way beyond music. And sometimes people, you know, tend to hold a lot of that in a box. But if you look at, you know, culture, culture is led by music in a lot of ways. And so you can see that music is like, you know, kind of a leading indicator and that being a leading indicator helps you to really identify where to go next. [00:19:28] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so we think that all of these things work very symbiotically together in giving our partners and our partners on the other side is people who are looking to invest in, you know, they, you know, engage in music engagement as well because they engage in music as it relates to how you're thinking about developing either new product on the film and television side and, or integrating it into what they're putting together. [00:19:51] Sherrese Clarke Soares: You know, again, there's, you know, there's a soundtrack. Every movie, just think about the synergies that exist across both. And so we're very focused on really thinking holistically about the learnings that we get from really understanding the asset itself, understanding the entertainment asset itself and how we think that can apply in other spaces as well and really being very, very intentional about leveraging that knowledge across a wider pool and really creating some of that synergistic upside opportunity.  [00:20:19] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So that's how we think about it. And again, it's very differentiated than others who have been solely kind of a music operator with a fund vehicle that's attached to it or big firms that maybe only take kind of a point of view at one point in time on the relative value of the attractiveness of music. [00:20:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We are residents, I like to say. We are not tourist. And means that we're here to stay. Like, we like the neighborhood, this is our block. We know the lady down the street, we know the person up the street, people may move in and out, but we'll be here. This is our home and this space of really kind of thinking about how all these things work together. [00:20:55] Dan Runcie: And I'm sure it's an exciting time on that front too, with just all the other emerging IP-related opportunities, whether it's with metaverse in gaming or other related things. What is that piece have been like?  [00:21:08] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, listen, I mean, I think it's really interesting. I think we're at early innings, you know, as my dear friend Morgan DeBaun, who's a CEO and founder of Blavity, likes to say, we're sort of in the MySpace era of Web 3.0, right? So like we all had a MySpace account and we all thought that was going to be it for social media. But truthfully, obviously we're looking at Facebook, and Instagram, and TikTok, and other things as sort of like what became the mature execution businesses of what social media is. I think Web 3.0 and the metaverse and all that is probably in the same place. [00:21:36] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So super excited about the potential, but we're still really early on what it will look like over time. But I think it's going to be huge for anybody who owns premium IP because that's, you know, again, how do we all decide how we're going to engage? We're going to engage because they're going to be sort of the ability to engage with anchoring around IP that we all kind of know love and care about. [00:21:57] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So I think it's going to be a really interesting time and an exciting time, exciting time as it relates to sort of the next frontier for a digital distribution. I mean, I'd like to tell people like, it's 2022. In 2012, which was 10 years ago, we weren't talking about streaming, we were talking about downloads and maybe sort of this disruptive technology where people were, obviously, at that point, pirating music. But we weren't talking about, you know, streaming leading how we consume both video and audio content. [00:22:25] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And 10 years from now, I think, streaming will be, is still a big part of the business model, but we've been talking about something else, too, and we don't know exactly what that is. But what we do know and if we look at over decades, not just the last 10 years, multiple decades, is that as distribution platforms pull up IPs at the center of it and really drives how those distribution platforms, you know, gain eyeballs, right? [00:22:47] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like, I don't know if you remember back in the day when you were all growing up and, you know, if you had Comcast or, you know, I don't remember all the cable services anymore, AT&T. Every once in a while, there'd be a dispute between ESPN and AT&T and the screen would go black and you couldn't get your sports content. [00:23:03] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And who won over time, you know, the content owners, ESPNs and others, who were providing this kind of premium content to allow us all to pay a hundred dollars a month or $200 a month or whatever it is that we pay for cable to exist, you know, really kind of what we're able to command rates and outcomes. And so if you think about that as sort of, again, even a leading indicator around the power of content, this is sort of what we believe in intrinsically. And we believe that that's going to be applied in a Web 3.0 and the metaverse world as well.  [00:23:34] Dan Runcie: That's a great point. And I mean, I couldn't agree more that, I think about a question I posed to a few people a few months back. It was on whether they would rather own universal music group stock or Spotify stock. [00:23:47] Dan Runcie: And the answers were pretty split. And I think I was a bit surprised and I was like, you wouldn't want to have the underlying asset that is having all of these other distribution deals with all of these other growing platforms as they are, you would rather take the bet on the one. And of course, you know, there's a case to be made on the other side, too. [00:24:03] Dan Runcie: But to your point about ESPN and the cable services, the underlying content does end up being the one that triumphs.  [00:24:10] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think that's right. And I mean, listen, like Spotify positively changed the way that the business model and was like the leader and so kudos to Dan Ek and everything that he's built. [00:24:22] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so I think there is something to being kind of at the forefront of changing a distribution model because there's obviously a lot of room, and it's hard for people to catch up as we are seeing, and obviously why they in so much share. But just to be kind of a generic distribution provider, that's less interesting to me personally, because you get squeezed on both sides. [00:24:41] Sherrese Clarke Soares: You got to pay for the content and then you got to, you got to compete on price with your subscriber base. And so that's just to squeeze into the middle. That's just pure math. But when you see like platforms like, and we know Netflix is going through its adjustment period now, but when you see platforms like Netflix and Spotify, what ends up happening with them because they lead. [00:24:58] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And they're so far ahead as it relates to redefining the category, that's why they end up capturing a lot of value. So I hear the debate and understand the debate philosophically, but if you're just asking me, like, would I rather own IP versus would I rather own distribution, it's IP for me all day. Now, if somebody was going to redefine what distribution looks like, then, and in a way that we think is going to be a category killer, that may be a great place to invest because as we've seen, you know, distribution models that, that lead the category and disrupt actually win, for at least an extended period of time. [00:25:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's a great point at Spotify, too. I feel like they did change the space in what they've been able to do, and even how they've continued to diversify their own income streams. I think they've shown it had the proof points, you know, of what works. And I think similar to Netflix, to some extent, you know, they're changing a few things just given with the way things are, but. [00:25:52] Dan Runcie: I feel like it's an age old thing. I think one other aspect, I think about, too, just given you mentioned 2012 versus 2022, here we are now. And what the next decade will look like. I look at an app like TikTok where it wasn't a few years ago, where not that many people were talking about it, except for, you know, the early users. [00:26:10] Dan Runcie: And now it has a billion monthly active users. Fastest app to get there. That just means that that timeframe of getting to a billion monthly active users for the next thing is likely going to be even shorter than it was for TikTok.  [00:26:23] Sherrese Clarke Soares: That's right. And by the way, and now TikTok is super influential on music that we all listen to, on advertising, on how people get exposed to different things. [00:26:32] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so, you know, the speed with which, to your point, getting to a billion active monthly users, you know, technology has really allowed to persist is incredible. And so I only think that'll get faster and faster and, you know, again, content, again, back to TikTok, like, you know, it's popularity was indexed off the back of music. [00:26:52] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so there's no denying that again, back to like, Seeing what's going to be the next thing. What's the next distribution model, what's the next use case will continue to proliferate. We've got inklings of things that exist now, whether it's out of home exercise or, you know, whether it's other social media platforms or whether it's gaming. [00:27:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So we've inklings of that, but it's all still really small in the grand scheme of the revenue pie. But to, you know, as we've discussed and to your point, like the speed with which technology is changing and moving forward, the next next thing may be on the horizon in the next two, three years, or maybe something that, again, we're not even talking about now in the way that we weren't really talking about TikTok in 2018 or 19. And so yes, technology will move quickly and the way to engage will continue to expand the monetization opportunities.  [00:27:42] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. The big opportunities there, especially on the longer term, but I'm wondering on the short term though, I've heard a few people talking about just where things are with the market. [00:27:52] Dan Runcie: We're recording this now June, 2022, and the overall market may not be quite as fraught as it was say, let's say October, November 2021, but there's still deals that we're seeing happening, especially on the investing side. And I'm hearing rumors about this Pink Floyd catalog getting nearly half a billion dollars potentially, but what's your take right now on where things are and whether or not the current market conditions will impact anything that we've seen on the catalog investment side?  [00:28:24] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think, listen, I think, you know, as interest rates rise and as relative value to other risk asset classes change, you may see people who are tourists, from an investor perspective, leave the space because they may say, okay, instead of investing in music, I'm going to invest in this other thing, which will decrease buyer demand and may put some weakness into the market. [00:28:50] Sherrese Clarke Soares: You know, so I think that being said, you know, people should expect that that may happen in the next few, next few years, or the next, you know, 12 to 18 months is probably a better time frame. But I would say that as it relates to the overall environment, whether it's inflation, supply chain, things of that nature, depending on how a business is positioned and the way that we buy we're positioned really well as a really great hedge to all of that. [00:29:17] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We don't really have the same exposure to that volatility. The price point, particularly in music from a consumer perspective is actually a really great value. And so we don't see a lot of churn expected. The way that consumers consume music is actually, you know, very accessible, even relative to video content, right? [00:29:37] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Because video content, you buy into platform, A, B, or C for the exclusive content they have on those respective platforms. Whereas in music, like you can pretty much listen to anything you want across all the platforms pretty homogenously. So that I think is, you know, proves to be a really great asset class, especially in this period of uncertainty, especially with the public equity markets being as volatile as it is. [00:30:01] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And, you know, people having, you know, a hard time getting a sense for where real value is with tech, valuations being as volatile as they are, because their indexed to the overall equity markets, public equity markets, et cetera, like things like what we do as illiquid, but also, you know, non-correlated for sure, but certainly also countercyclical really actually create a really great investment opportunity for people who are looking to reduce volatility or especially market volatility in their portfolio. [00:30:31] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So like, nothing's really changed for us in the last. You know, six to nine months since, for the portfolios that we own. Everything's continuing to come in as expected. We don't really see any, like, real top line impact. Whereas other businesses are seeing really top real top-line impact, they have wage inflation, they have supply chain issues. [00:30:49] Sherrese Clarke Soares: They've got obviously interest rates. They have overall market volatility. And so all that will create kind of near-term uncertainty for those companies and therefore for those company valuations, which we just don't have that same type of volatility. So we're actually really excited about, you know, the marketplace in the near term because we think we'll have a great, you know, we'll have, we have a lot of dry powder and, in having a lot of dry powder, we also are positioned in an opportunity where we have the opportunity to really kind of lean in. So, that's us  [00:31:21] Dan Runcie: Right. In a lot of ways, that was the pitch, I think, when a lot of these deals were happening, people were attracted to the non-correlated assets and here it is, right? Like, we're seeing what's happening elsewhere.  [00:31:34] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So a lot of times for entertainment, me being around the entertainment market from an investing and financing perspective for the better part of 20 years, you're always telling people how non-correlated it is, but usually you're kind of having this conversation and the market's all working together and in parallel. Well, what's been interesting about the last few years, starting with COVID is that you've been able to in real-time, see like, oh yeah, it really is non-correlated. Everything else is moving, you know, down into the left and we're moving up into the right because of the way that we consume, because you're basically, again, content in particular, but music even more special, is connected to the human condition. [00:32:13] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We all have a favorite song. You know, you're going to go to a birthday party or a wedding, you're going to hear music. You're going to go to a kid's performance at the end of the year, you're going to hear music. You know, we all have things that are attached to really important moments in our lives. And we use music and consume music more than we even realize. [00:32:30] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Sometimes we consume it very, you know, proactively, but a lot of times we can consume it very subconsciously. We go into a grocery store, we go to the gym, we step into our car, listen to the radio. Like, you're engaging with something that again, you know, is very pervasive. It's ephemeral, and it's everywhere, and it allows it to really kind of be resilient on a relative basis. [00:32:50] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think one of the differences too, between this timeframe, and let's say 2008, when there was the last recession, then the music industry itself, the business model and the state of the industry, just wasn't in the best place to begin with. Even beforehand, just given where things were with CD sales, and piracy, and digital downloads still, you know, and I guess you had, you still did have road tones and things like that at the time, but it wasn't where it is now, where yes, there has been a bit of a slide back with a lot of the stocks. However, music itself was in a strong place. So not only are you able to prove that out, there was an underlying business model here that continues to prove that people are going to listen to all of this music and consume all of this music, regardless of, you know, what may be happening outside. [00:33:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think, look, you know, at the end of the day, all businesses will go through business model adjustments. You know, the music business went through theirs. The film business just recently went through theirs. And I think it's coming on the other side of that, where that's why you're seeing all the major film studios have, you know, a something plus right. [00:33:57] Sherrese Clarke Soares: A Disney Plus you know, a Discover Plus, or what have you, and starting to move towards having a streaming model as well. So all businesses, no matter what shape or size, no matter what industry media or not will go through disruptions on how the business is consumed and will have these periods of time. [00:34:14] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And I don't think the entertainment business is, you know, somehow isolated from that or immune to. But what you will see over the long duration is again, back to kind of like the underlying consumption. I'd say the other point to make is like, it's hard to look at stock prices in this current context to really kind of give you kind of a good point of view on volatility or, and, or valuation only because it's a reference point, but we also have to remember that most of the public markets is actually managed by quantitative balancing if you will, but not necessarily active and, and active and thoughtful and you know, investing strategies. A lot of it is very passively managed. And so as there is volatility that injects itself in the overall markets themselves, you see a lot of rebalancing of portfolios that actually just bring prices down that may have nothing to do with the underlying fundamentals of the asset class itself. [00:35:07] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So that's just something to kind of keep in mind if you're looking at the stocks of universal Warner or any of the other kind of music traded stocks as well.  [00:35:14] Dan Runcie: The other big piece with this, and you mentioned this earlier, is just the distinction between the tourists and the residents here, right? These types of things end up impacting much more of the tourists who maybe, they only had one foot in and it doesn't take much, you know, ripple for them to move, or shadow, adjust, or downscale what they were doing, where the people that were actually building. Are still in it. I mean, I'm still seeing startup deals happening. [00:35:36] Dan Runcie: I'm still seeing rounds being closed. And I think that's, it's likely a signal to the people that were more so, you know, dedicated. And they're also just showed with the investment market, saw them as you know, from an opportunity perspective. So I, I think that's a, like you mentioned earlier, that's a big piece of this, too. [00:35:54] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think that's what's going to differentiate us. Like, you know, our goal for HarbourView is to build an institution not dissimilar to a lot of people who I admire in the private equity space. And you know, there's been a lot of great work that's been done over the last 35, 40 years building kind of private equity, asset management businesses. [00:36:12] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we're hopeful to build kind of the next generation of that, and really build a scale of industrialized force in the entertainment and media space from a sector perspective. And so as we think about that, we really think about who and what we want to be and being residents of the space is a big piece of that because that's where we can identify places where we can really dig in and support high quality management teams that we really like and want to engage with. [00:36:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: That's where we can really dig in support, really having a long term view over owning these assets and really find ways to identify value when other investors, again, kind of have a relative value in their mind and have moved on to the next greatest or the next hottest thing. We want to really be focused on really kind of you know, building, obviously, we have to deliver great returns. And the only way that we can scale to being an industrialized force is having top-quartile returns. So we aim for that just as much as anybody else, but we think that there's a really great way of doing that as being a part of the ecosystem, you know, fully entrenched in the world versus just being there to be opportunistic. [00:37:13] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. And yeah, shifting gears a little bit. One thing that I know is near and dear to both of us as Jamaicans, we got to talk about what the opportunities in reggae and ska look like.  [00:37:25] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, listen. I'm a huge, huge, huge, huge fan. Like, people often ask me, I often get the question in these interviews. Like, what are you listening to? And if I'm really honest, you know, the car ride is the Bob Marley radio station. Every day, my kids are constantly like, why do we always have to listen to Bob Marley? And then every morning the kids get up to Here Comes the Band and Machel Montano, that's the way to kind start our high-energy day. [00:37:50] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So we're big fans and believers. And to the extent that there's opportunities out there to acquire, we're happy, happy, happy to do it. You know, one thing for about us as a firm is we try not to be a pursuer. Like, if somebody's open to selling, we want to have every opportunity to, to take a look and to compete and to compete on the merits and put our best foot forward. [00:38:12] Sherrese Clarke Soares: But we are not interested in making anybody feel like we're after just being vultures or after their work. But I say all that to say like, we don't own a lot of reggae and ska or soca today. But if anybody who is of those audiences is listening and is excited to sell, we are happy, happy, happy participants and active participants in that market, but we're never going to, you know, go and try to, you know, force people to, to give up rights or sell rights that, that they may not be ready to. [00:38:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like it's only a matter of time before we see one of those deals or, or dance hall too. I feel like we're going to see it soon enough.  [00:38:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes, exactly. Exactly.  [00:38:49] Dan Runcie: Yeah. All right. Well, before we let you go, I do want to talk a bit about mentorship and apprenticeship 'cause I know that's something you've talked about in past interviews as well and just how important it is specifically in private equity and in finance and I want to hear how that's been really helpful for you and your career, and then extending that to the next generation.  [00:39:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, absolutely. So we're big believers in that. We're taking interns this summer, I believe one from Howard and one from HBS. So we're big believers in that. We're a small firm, but we're still having an intern class, which, you know, I think speaks to sort of this idea of giving people an opportunity to just come learn. [00:39:29] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And us to learn from them and what they can bring to the table. So, yes, it is absolutely 100%. And in an apprenticeship business, I've learned so much from so many really great people, inclusive of all the people that I've worked with over the years at Morgan Stanley. You know, tons, tons of people I could give you lots, a whole long laundry list of names of people there, or even all my new partners at Apollo have been just great in, you know, rolling up their sleeves and thinking about things with me as we've been, you know, looking at, you know, various opportunities. [00:40:01] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So that's been really great. I think one of the things that we're very focused on as well is really trying to be thoughtful about who we want to be as investors and how we want to, and how we think and we derive our own POV. So we, we try to basically take all the things that we want to take from those experiences, learning how to obviously, you know, do all the diligence and all that stuff are things that I've learned coming up, but having this strong conviction around what we care about, thematically, who we want to be as an investor, how we want to be seen as an investor, how we want to partner with management teams, I think has been things that we've sort of curated based on the experiences that we've had, but mentorship and apprenticeship has been huge part of my career and will never not be. [00:40:47] Sherrese Clarke Soares: I mean, I, I have mentors today, like even to negotiate my deal that I negotiated with Apollo, I had great people like the great Stu Bergen, who's a good friend of mine, who was a senior executive at Warner music, who really helped me to think through that. Or Robert Smith who's obviously the CEO and founder of Vista Equity Partners, or Damien Dwin who, as a long-time friend of mine, has started multiple platforms have really been people who have been in my ear on like, okay, you could do this. [00:41:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: This is how you negotiate that. This is the value that you bring, make sure you stand firm or this or that. And it's been just really great to always have those people around, but it's also really empowering to also, you know, set a vision for what it is and who it is that we want the firm to be, and what it is we want our investing style to be, and what it is we want to be to the marketplace. [00:41:30] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So, so it's been great. I've been very fortunate over the years to basically have exposure to people who have built great businesses, who have seen lots of things, seen lots of different points of adversity, but also made way, made time to pour back into me. And so we think it's responsible for us to pour back into others too. So we're very, very, very focused on that.  [00:41:53] Dan Runcie: Well said. And yeah, I think especially people hearing that you're still reaching out to people to help close the big deals that you have given everything that you've accomplished is just a reminder that yes, like this doesn't stop. Everyone that you see is learning. You know, this is a constant thing for sure.  [00:42:09] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes, 100%, 100% [00:42:11] Dan Runcie: Well, Sherrese. This is great. Thank you so much. I think people are going to definitely feel like they'll get a closer lens as to how these deals go down and just a lot of the thought behind it, but I'm sure people will also be listening and waiting for the headlines to see the next deals to drop as well. [00:42:27] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes. Yes. We'll be coming to a neighborhood, neighborhood near you soon.  [00:42:34] Dan Runcie: And if people do want to keep track, where can they follow HarbourView or where can they do that?  [00:42:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Follow HarbourView on LinkedIn, on Instagram also, and then, you know, check out our website. Yeah.  [00:42:46] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. Sherrese, thanks again. [00:42:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Thank you so much. So great to see you. Take care.  [00:42:51] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. “Content is queen” is the mantra of this week’s Trapital’s guest, Sherrese Clarke Soares. The phrase has a double-meaning. For one, it’s the heart of her investment firm, HarbourView Equity Partners, which specializes in acquiring content across the entertainment, sports, and media sectors. But on a personal level, the phrase also represents her unique place in the industry as a rare Black and female founder. 


Sherrese founded HarbourView in 2021. This came on the heels of founding Tempo Music and ten-plus years at Morgan Stanley. These experiences have put Sherrese front and center with IP, understanding not only its financial incentives, but its cultural value too.


HarbourView is backed with up to $1 billion in investment capital from Apollo Global Management. Within months of its founding, HarbourView acquired the music catalog of Luis Fonsi and with that, the decade-defining hit “Despacito.” It was the latest splash in the booming business of catalog sales that ecliped over $5 billion in 2021 alone. 


What’s Sherrese's strategy with Fonsi’s catalog plus other IP acquisitions? You’ll want to listen to the full episode to find out, plus a whole lot more. Here’s everything we covered during our interview:


[3:27] Why Sherrese Created Her Own Firm, HarbourView

[6:55] Why HarbourView Team Looks Different Than Any Other Investment Group

[10:31] Hip-Hop Investments Being Overlooked

[15:28] Why HarbourView Acquired Luis Fonsi’s Music Catalog

[17:21] HarbourView’s “Forever Owner” Strategy To IP

[22:47] Owning IP In web3 

[24:22] Owning IP Vs. Owning Distribution 

[28:24] Current Market Conditions Impact On Catalog Investments

[33:39] Music Industry In Better Shape Now Compared To 2008 Recession

[35:54] Building A Next-Gen Asset Management Firm

[37:25] Opportunities In Reggae & Ska

[39:11] Importance of Mentorship in Private Equity



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Sherrese Clarke Soares, @sherreseclarkesoares

 

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 


TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We want to be one of the largest buyers, if not the largest buyer, of music catalogs, but we're also investing outside of music in how do we create cross-pollination across the music that we own to other places where we may invest as well. So we think there's lots and lots and lots of upside around owning premium content. So we are very focused on being kind of as close to the IP as possible or the IP creation or development, or actually ownership of the IP, because we think that that's going to drive huge, huge upside. 

[00:00:27] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. 

[00:00:54] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Sherrese Clarke Soares. She's the founder and CEO of HarbourView Equity Partners, a global investment firm that's focused on premium content across the entertainment, sports, and media sectors. You may know the name from some of the music catalog acquisitions she's done a couple months back.

[00:01:14] Dan Runcie: The firm acquired Luis Fonsi's catalog and got one of the biggest hits of the 21st century with Despacito. So we talked about that and we talked about Sherrese's strategy more broadly for the firm. One of the things that has always stuck out to me about the music investment space is that you don't see as many big deals for hip-hop, R&B, or genres outside of the US, especially considering how popular all of these are in the streaming era and likely will continue to be.

[00:01:43] Dan Runcie: So we talked about how Sherrese's firm is focused on the wide space and how she sees us as an opportunity that others may not. And we talked more broadly about the entertainment space, what some of the investment opportunities that HarbourView is looking at outside of music and other emerging trends as they relate to the main streaming services and other technology platforms and more. Here's my conversation with Sherrese. All right. Today we're joined by Sherrese Clarke Soares and you've been a high-demand guest. So I'm glad we could finally do this. 

[00:02:16] Sherrese Clarke Soares: I'm glad we can, too. Thank you for having me. 

[00:02:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think one of the reasons people want to hear from you is because you've accomplished a lot in your career both Morgan Stanley and at Tempo, and now you have your own firm and it'll be great to hear a bit about the journey and specifically that moment that you knew that you wanted to break out and launch your own company in this space. 

[00:02:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, absolutely. Well, super great to be here. I guess just the journey is, you know, it's like one of those things that people talk about, it's the overnight success, 20 years in the making.

[00:02:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: It's been something that I've wanted to do for a long time, which is to be an investor in the entertainment space, entertainment media, you know, sports, even, because of how much I believe in the power and the impact of what content does. You know, obviously, it brings stories across the world and has the ability to shape hearts and minds.

[00:03:07] Sherrese Clarke Soares: But it also brings joy, like so much of what we all know and have fond memories of, especially when it comes to music are things that are momentous and important times in our lives. And so something that's so core to the human condition to me is nothing but a great investment opportunity. So that's, I think, you know, that's, I guess, one kind of critical piece of the journey.

[00:03:27] Sherrese Clarke Soares: As it relates to starting HarbourView HarbourView. I started in January, 2021 after resigning from my post as CEO of Tempo Music, which was a platform that I founded out of work I was doing at Morgan Stanley. There's so many things, you know, as I was putting together that platform, when I was at Morgan Stanley, I got multiple offers from different investors.

[00:03:46] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We ultimately chose to work with Providence Equity Partners because of their intimate knowledge of the media space. But one of the things, I guess for me was I was, it was my first deal in terms of becoming an investor and finally getting to do what I wanted to do. So I didn't really, you know, in hindsight, negotiate the best deal for myself as it relates to, you know, economics for something that I was building with my own two hands.

[00:04:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And it basically started from a blank sheet of paper in 2015 when I was pregnant with my son, actually. And so I really finally had this moment and this aha moment of, one, there's an opportunity, people are looking for people who, who are like me and have the track record that I have to back me and I was getting a lot of actually reverse inquiry when I was at Tempo for investors to back what I had built a lot of unsolicited inbounds.

[00:04:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And that was largely because I had spent so much time trying to curate investors to really support what it was that I was looking to build. And so that started to give me some confidence that, you know, that there was really an appetite for the firm and the vision that I was looking to build. And so I resigned in December of 2020 with, you know, the idea that I really was going to build a firm that was bigger than music.

[00:05:05] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Tempo was also only designed to be a music rights acquisition platform. And I really wanted to do music 'cause I love it, but also do things outside of music as well. So I launched HarbourView and went about the business of finding the right partner for us. We knew we wanted to partner with a large scale asset manager to really turbo charge and accelerate our growth.

[00:05:25] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so we did that in October of 2021, where we launched a billion-dollar partnership with Apollo, but importantly, we are independent. We're an independent firm and we're able to retain that independent and that discretion over how we invest, how we think about building out the firm, which is great. And so was able to do that in October, launched officially in October in terms of our capital partnership and have been out, telling our story to the world and really looking at building a coalition that believes in our vision, which is in identifying opportunities that other people have a hard time seeing because they kind of only invest from their own, from their native walks. Whereas we, by virtue of being a diverse team, we believe in the power of thinking about things differently.

[00:06:08] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so, so that's what we've been up to. It's really exciting. I'm joined by exceptional humans that have joined me on this journey. We're all really aligned to the vision and the mission with all of my team, including my assistant, really participating in the equity upside of the business, where 13 full-time professionals, soon to be a 14th.

[00:06:26] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And, you know, we've been pretty busy since October. We've made a number of investments, some of which we've announced, some of which we are about to announce. And so, continue to look forward to that. And we're, you know, pretty active in the market while also starting to think about investment opportunities outside of music, which we're really, which we're really, really jazzed about.

[00:06:42] Dan Runcie: Could you talk a bit more about the opportunities specifically for your diverse team and the opportunities that investors saw in you that you feel that the market wasn't focusing on? 

[00:06:55] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah. So I would say, like, one of the things that's critical to us is obviously, you know, we are who we are. And so, you know, when you look at us as an investment team, we very naturally look different than any other investment team that you will see.

[00:07:07] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like, the collage of who we are as a team is always like my proudest moment of a page when I'm showing into anyone in the world and telling our story, because we are really sort of, you know, I know you're Jamaican, too, by heritage. And so, you know, as, as you know, we have a statement "Out of many, one people," and so it really does kind of resonate with that.

[00:07:26] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so from that perspective, that was really resonating with how we talked to investors, including Apollo, which was great. They saw that in us immediately, but also how we think about the world. We think differently. And we think our difference is our strength. And so what that means is that we have approached the opportunities based with a very data-focused mindset.

[00:07:45] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And that data-focused mindset actually leads to the truth, which the truth is that we own a lot of things that are in the Latin space, and the hip-hop space, and R&B space, which we're all really proud of because we also are showing very quantitatively and, with data, that that's where the real growth and the real opportunity is in our perspective.

[00:08:04] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so we tend to try to, again, lead with this idea that the world is round and not flat. And what we mean by that is a lot of investors tend to do the same playbook over and over again, or a template that, you know, many other people do. We're very focused on building a pathway that allows us to not take anything for granted to not come into a situation with preconceived notions, to really try to identify what we think our value add is to an opportunity set, whether it's in music or otherwise and how we really can envision the future.

[00:08:40] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And that really, I think, has been resonating with investors, with our partners because it is a differentiated approach to how other people are thinking about it. In the music space, obviously, there's a lot of great firms, many of whom we admire who have done really fantastic things, but we just differentiate our strategy from that.

[00:08:57] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We are not aiming to be a music operator, a music label, or a publishing business, or otherwise. We are really aiming to be a really strategic partner from an economic perspective and financial perspective to the overall ecosystem. So that really allows us to think creatively and to do really creative things and really be respectful of the fact that, you know, the creative ecosystem itself has gone through its own journey, has offers and brings a lot to the table. But in a similar vein, we as seasoned investors bring a lot to the table, too. And so we're able to engage in the way that's differentiated from others that are kind of purely looking at it from an operating perspective. 

[00:09:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We're looking at it from, like, okay, how can we join forces together and really drive upside for both sides of the equation? So we, we typically try to, in anything that we do, any investment that we make, structure how everybody benefits on a go-forward basis together. 

[00:09:49] Dan Runcie: I'm very glad you're focused on this piece because one thing that I've always scratched my head at is I've talked to other people who are investors in this space.

[00:09:58] Dan Runcie: And I would always hear from them specifically about hip-hop music that, oh, well, it isn't mature enough. And they don't feel like it's proven or they feel like it's too disposable or they feel like sampling is a challenge. But if you look at streaming data, which a lot of this has been influenced by, especially with the current wave of acquisitions.

[00:10:18] Dan Runcie: It's hip-hop, it's Latin music where we think about the genres that have shown the power and the potential, especially on a worldwide perspective. I'm like, you can't overlook this forever. So, you know, in many ways it's their loss.

[00:10:31] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Well, mostly, yeah, you know, people do what they're very comfortable with. So it's like things that they know, see, and hear, which, you know, I get it. And I'm okay with, I guess, to a point. You know, I'm excited about everything in the classic rock space, as much as anybody else. Like, I'm a huge, I'm a huge fan of all of it, like, grew up on all of it, enjoyed it, listened to it, but I'm also a child that was raised in the hip-hop era.

[00:10:53] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like hip-hop is going to be 50 years old next year. Like, that's not an immature thing. You know, I don't think we're calling 50-year-old people children, in which case, there is a lot that underlines it. And so it's all about how you sift through the data, how you look at what your, what you think is driving and where you think things are going to go, which gives us a point of view that we think again, is differentiated.

[00:11:14] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We have a lot of things in our portfolio that we believe to be really strong for the culture, really strong from a legacy perspective. And we think has really extraordinary growth potential for a variety of different reasons. And so we don't believe that view. And again, we don't have any preconceived notions about what's going to work and what isn't going to work.

[00:11:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We really try to be genre-agnostic. So, you know, we own a little bit of everything. Like, we're closing this week, a couple of things in the country market, which we're really excited about. We've closed things in the rock market, which we're really excited about, but we are never going to ignore genres such as hip-hop, R&B, et cetera.

[00:11:52] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Latin are places where it may be a very local experience. Like, one of the artists in our catalog is Eslabon Armando. And last week, he crossed a billion streams and was on the cover of Billboard. And he is a Mexican, local Mexican artist, and one of the best in the game, but not very well known here in the US market or in the, you know, pop, you know, the, the pop market, if you will.

[00:12:16] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so just giving a sense for there is a lot to local music, and so I'm sure you can, you know, commiserate, like growing up, what did you listen to on Saturday and Sunday morning in your house? It was not necessarily, like, you know, what was playing on the radio. It was what your mom and dad grew up to.

[00:12:34] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Those rhythmic sounds of soca or reggae or local, which is very local music, but there are billions of people like us around the world that connect with a very differentiated experience. And so we're really bullish on things like that because we know that just, we just know that intrinsically based on who we are, that this is popular music.

[00:12:54] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we also know intrinsically that, you know, technology is bringing broadband globally to a lot of places where it hasn't existed before. So you intersect those two things and you see growth. And we again drive through data to come to these conclusions, which again, leads us with what I think is the best outcome, a data-driven, you know, evidential support and not just an empathetic one, that this is all real.

[00:13:19] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we have known it for a long time in technology has democratized it, such that we can see it evidenced in a real way. 

[00:13:27] Dan Runcie: You mentioned the data-driven approach a few times. Is there anything that the data is telling you that you see as a huge opportunity coming up soon that you think that others may be overlooking or not thinking about as much?

[00:13:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, 100%. I don't share that though, because then everybody starts, the next thing, you know, people start chasing down my sources. Yeah, no, 100%. That's I think how we, that's how we're differentiated. That's how we find differentiated opportunities. And, you know, we think about that every single day. So we are constantly building our own proprietary data system that we love.

[00:14:05] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we don't think that anybody else has anything nearly matched to it. I started to build one at my previous platform, but didn't have the resources candidly to actually do it. And now that I do have the resources, we've built it out full sum in a way that we can analyze things from back, you know, backwards and forwards, including historical information all the way through to, you know, tapping into what's happening in real-time platforms, such as, you know, Spotify, TikTok, YouTube, et cetera.

[00:14:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So it gives us a lot of really great insight, which again, I think just makes us approach this a little bit differently than even my predecessor. So, yeah, so it allows us to see a lot of stuff. And again, if I told you what I was seeing, then everybody would just try to go copycat it. What they probably can't copycat is how we've been able to build a really great platform around data analytics that we just continue to invest in.

[00:14:55] Sherrese Clarke Soares: But that's who we are as a DNA, right? Like other people kind of use their DNA, the lead, their platforms, and they have great success in different ways, but our DNA is really around leading around that stuff. And so we're excited about that. 

[00:15:07] Dan Runcie: I hear you on that. And yeah, definitely don't want to give away any of the trade secrets, but let's talk about one of the deals we can talk about, which is the Luis Fonsi catalog, which your company had acquired. With that, you got one of the biggest hits of the 21st century with Despacito. What did it take to make that deal happen? 

[00:15:28] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think what it takes is a couple of things. The first is obviously again, leading with data, having a sense for the marketplace. Again, going back to like a local language, Spanish language song. It's going to resonate with a lot of people. They may not be people that you individually know, but it resonates with a lot of people.

[00:15:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So from a thesis perspective, completely right on point. And secondly, like just spending time with Luis and the team, Angie and Denny and others, you know, we really connected on what we want, what at least what I personally want HarbourView to be, and how impactful I want it to be for the entertainment business overall, but particularly for recognizing the impact, the cultural impact that we, and I say, we like broadly people of color have in the world.

[00:16:17] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And again, we buy everything, but it's important to me for that to be a level playing field. So I think it was really just spending time with the team, working through sort of the thesis, letting them know who we were thematically as a firm, what we care about. And then that really allowed us to sort of see a really great path together.

[00:16:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And, you know, again, we built in partnership into that deal as we do into every deal. And that allows us to basically, he wants us to win. We want him to win, keep rooting for each other. And all the deals that we have in our portfolio, and we've closed close to 30 deals already so far, are all kind of very similar and kind of pick up on those very same themes of like, look, the things that we know and love are really impactful and important. And you're seeing it drive through, drive through data. 

[00:17:03] Dan Runcie: And after you acquire a catalog like this or any of the other ones in your portfolio, what does the post-sale activity on the asset look like? I know that in this space, a lot of people have talked about whether some investors are buy and hold versus trying to maximize the asset themselves.

[00:17:21] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, absolutely. So the post-sale is, you know, look, we aim to be the forever owners of these assets and we look to provide return to our partners in various ways that we think is differentiated and one that we believe there's nobody better than our team to actually deliver. So we think about, like, how to create liquidity events while still maintaining the ownership ultimately of the catalog itself.

[00:17:47] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so some of that will be in portfolio strategy. And so portfolio strategy for us is like, yeah, we're building an accumulating, a really huge library. We want to be one of the largest buyers, if not the largest buyer, of music catalogs, but we're also investing outside of music in how do we create cross pollination across the music that we own to other places where we may invest as well. So we think there's lots and lots and lots of upside around owning premium content. So we are very focused on being kind of as close to the IP as possible or the IP creation or development, or actually ownership of the IP, because we think that that's going to drive huge, huge upside.

[00:18:24] Dan Runcie: And I imagine that too, that extends into the multimedia aspect too. And obviously why you don't just want to have holded music. You're looking at other assets too, because obviously IP and music's there, but there's so much potential. You're looking at movies and TV shows and just where everything's going with video streaming on that front.

[00:18:42] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Absolutely. But also think about this, two things. One is, again, my team is incredible, just again, an exceptional group of people, but they're athletes, they're not one-trick ponies. And so, you know, they really can think about things across the space. The other thing that's also happening as we engage deeper and deeper in the music space is the same thing is true from the parties that we partner with on the catalog side.

[00:19:04] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like, many have ideas of things that they want to do way beyond music. And sometimes people, you know, tend to hold a lot of that in a box. But if you look at, you know, culture, culture is led by music in a lot of ways. And so you can see that music is like, you know, kind of a leading indicator and that being a leading indicator helps you to really identify where to go next.

[00:19:28] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so we think that all of these things work very symbiotically together in giving our partners and our partners on the other side is people who are looking to invest in, you know, they, you know, engage in music engagement as well because they engage in music as it relates to how you're thinking about developing either new product on the film and television side and, or integrating it into what they're putting together.

[00:19:51] Sherrese Clarke Soares: You know, again, there's, you know, there's a soundtrack. Every movie, just think about the synergies that exist across both. And so we're very focused on really thinking holistically about the learnings that we get from really understanding the asset itself, understanding the entertainment asset itself and how we think that can apply in other spaces as well and really being very, very intentional about leveraging that knowledge across a wider pool and really creating some of that synergistic upside opportunity. 

[00:20:19] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So that's how we think about it. And again, it's very differentiated than others who have been solely kind of a music operator with a fund vehicle that's attached to it or big firms that maybe only take kind of a point of view at one point in time on the relative value of the attractiveness of music.

[00:20:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We are residents, I like to say. We are not tourist. And means that we're here to stay. Like, we like the neighborhood, this is our block. We know the lady down the street, we know the person up the street, people may move in and out, but we'll be here. This is our home and this space of really kind of thinking about how all these things work together.

[00:20:55] Dan Runcie: And I'm sure it's an exciting time on that front too, with just all the other emerging IP-related opportunities, whether it's with metaverse in gaming or other related things. What is that piece have been like? 

[00:21:08] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, listen, I mean, I think it's really interesting. I think we're at early innings, you know, as my dear friend Morgan DeBaun, who's a CEO and founder of Blavity, likes to say, we're sort of in the MySpace era of Web 3.0, right? So like we all had a MySpace account and we all thought that was going to be it for social media. But truthfully, obviously we're looking at Facebook, and Instagram, and TikTok, and other things as sort of like what became the mature execution businesses of what social media is. I think Web 3.0 and the metaverse and all that is probably in the same place.

[00:21:36] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So super excited about the potential, but we're still really early on what it will look like over time. But I think it's going to be huge for anybody who owns premium IP because that's, you know, again, how do we all decide how we're going to engage? We're going to engage because they're going to be sort of the ability to engage with anchoring around IP that we all kind of know love and care about.

[00:21:57] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So I think it's going to be a really interesting time and an exciting time, exciting time as it relates to sort of the next frontier for a digital distribution. I mean, I'd like to tell people like, it's 2022. In 2012, which was 10 years ago, we weren't talking about streaming, we were talking about downloads and maybe sort of this disruptive technology where people were, obviously, at that point, pirating music. But we weren't talking about, you know, streaming leading how we consume both video and audio content.

[00:22:25] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And 10 years from now, I think, streaming will be, is still a big part of the business model, but we've been talking about something else, too, and we don't know exactly what that is. But what we do know and if we look at over decades, not just the last 10 years, multiple decades, is that as distribution platforms pull up IPs at the center of it and really drives how those distribution platforms, you know, gain eyeballs, right?

[00:22:47] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Like, I don't know if you remember back in the day when you were all growing up and, you know, if you had Comcast or, you know, I don't remember all the cable services anymore, AT&T. Every once in a while, there'd be a dispute between ESPN and AT&T and the screen would go black and you couldn't get your sports content.

[00:23:03] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And who won over time, you know, the content owners, ESPNs and others, who were providing this kind of premium content to allow us all to pay a hundred dollars a month or $200 a month or whatever it is that we pay for cable to exist, you know, really kind of what we're able to command rates and outcomes. And so if you think about that as sort of, again, even a leading indicator around the power of content, this is sort of what we believe in intrinsically. And we believe that that's going to be applied in a Web 3.0 and the metaverse world as well. 

[00:23:34] Dan Runcie: That's a great point. And I mean, I couldn't agree more that, I think about a question I posed to a few people a few months back. It was on whether they would rather own universal music group stock or Spotify stock.

[00:23:47] Dan Runcie: And the answers were pretty split. And I think I was a bit surprised and I was like, you wouldn't want to have the underlying asset that is having all of these other distribution deals with all of these other growing platforms as they are, you would rather take the bet on the one. And of course, you know, there's a case to be made on the other side, too.

[00:24:03] Dan Runcie: But to your point about ESPN and the cable services, the underlying content does end up being the one that triumphs. 

[00:24:10] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think that's right. And I mean, listen, like Spotify positively changed the way that the business model and was like the leader and so kudos to Dan Ek and everything that he's built.

[00:24:22] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so I think there is something to being kind of at the forefront of changing a distribution model because there's obviously a lot of room, and it's hard for people to catch up as we are seeing, and obviously why they in so much share. But just to be kind of a generic distribution provider, that's less interesting to me personally, because you get squeezed on both sides.

[00:24:41] Sherrese Clarke Soares: You got to pay for the content and then you got to, you got to compete on price with your subscriber base. And so that's just to squeeze into the middle. That's just pure math. But when you see like platforms like, and we know Netflix is going through its adjustment period now, but when you see platforms like Netflix and Spotify, what ends up happening with them because they lead.

[00:24:58] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And they're so far ahead as it relates to redefining the category, that's why they end up capturing a lot of value. So I hear the debate and understand the debate philosophically, but if you're just asking me, like, would I rather own IP versus would I rather own distribution, it's IP for me all day. Now, if somebody was going to redefine what distribution looks like, then, and in a way that we think is going to be a category killer, that may be a great place to invest because as we've seen, you know, distribution models that, that lead the category and disrupt actually win, for at least an extended period of time.

[00:25:32] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's a great point at Spotify, too. I feel like they did change the space in what they've been able to do, and even how they've continued to diversify their own income streams. I think they've shown it had the proof points, you know, of what works. And I think similar to Netflix, to some extent, you know, they're changing a few things just given with the way things are, but.

[00:25:52] Dan Runcie: I feel like it's an age old thing. I think one other aspect, I think about, too, just given you mentioned 2012 versus 2022, here we are now. And what the next decade will look like. I look at an app like TikTok where it wasn't a few years ago, where not that many people were talking about it, except for, you know, the early users.

[00:26:10] Dan Runcie: And now it has a billion monthly active users. Fastest app to get there. That just means that that timeframe of getting to a billion monthly active users for the next thing is likely going to be even shorter than it was for TikTok. 

[00:26:23] Sherrese Clarke Soares: That's right. And by the way, and now TikTok is super influential on music that we all listen to, on advertising, on how people get exposed to different things.

[00:26:32] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so, you know, the speed with which, to your point, getting to a billion active monthly users, you know, technology has really allowed to persist is incredible. And so I only think that'll get faster and faster and, you know, again, content, again, back to TikTok, like, you know, it's popularity was indexed off the back of music.

[00:26:52] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And so there's no denying that again, back to like, Seeing what's going to be the next thing. What's the next distribution model, what's the next use case will continue to proliferate. We've got inklings of things that exist now, whether it's out of home exercise or, you know, whether it's other social media platforms or whether it's gaming.

[00:27:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So we've inklings of that, but it's all still really small in the grand scheme of the revenue pie. But to, you know, as we've discussed and to your point, like the speed with which technology is changing and moving forward, the next next thing may be on the horizon in the next two, three years, or maybe something that, again, we're not even talking about now in the way that we weren't really talking about TikTok in 2018 or 19. And so yes, technology will move quickly and the way to engage will continue to expand the monetization opportunities. 

[00:27:42] Dan Runcie: Right. Yeah. The big opportunities there, especially on the longer term, but I'm wondering on the short term though, I've heard a few people talking about just where things are with the market.

[00:27:52] Dan Runcie: We're recording this now June, 2022, and the overall market may not be quite as fraught as it was say, let's say October, November 2021, but there's still deals that we're seeing happening, especially on the investing side. And I'm hearing rumors about this Pink Floyd catalog getting nearly half a billion dollars potentially, but what's your take right now on where things are and whether or not the current market conditions will impact anything that we've seen on the catalog investment side? 

[00:28:24] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think, listen, I think, you know, as interest rates rise and as relative value to other risk asset classes change, you may see people who are tourists, from an investor perspective, leave the space because they may say, okay, instead of investing in music, I'm going to invest in this other thing, which will decrease buyer demand and may put some weakness into the market.

[00:28:50] Sherrese Clarke Soares: You know, so I think that being said, you know, people should expect that that may happen in the next few, next few years, or the next, you know, 12 to 18 months is probably a better time frame. But I would say that as it relates to the overall environment, whether it's inflation, supply chain, things of that nature, depending on how a business is positioned and the way that we buy we're positioned really well as a really great hedge to all of that.

[00:29:17] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We don't really have the same exposure to that volatility. The price point, particularly in music from a consumer perspective is actually a really great value. And so we don't see a lot of churn expected. The way that consumers consume music is actually, you know, very accessible, even relative to video content, right?

[00:29:37] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Because video content, you buy into platform, A, B, or C for the exclusive content they have on those respective platforms. Whereas in music, like you can pretty much listen to anything you want across all the platforms pretty homogenously. So that I think is, you know, proves to be a really great asset class, especially in this period of uncertainty, especially with the public equity markets being as volatile as it is.

[00:30:01] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And, you know, people having, you know, a hard time getting a sense for where real value is with tech, valuations being as volatile as they are, because their indexed to the overall equity markets, public equity markets, et cetera, like things like what we do as illiquid, but also, you know, non-correlated for sure, but certainly also countercyclical really actually create a really great investment opportunity for people who are looking to reduce volatility or especially market volatility in their portfolio.

[00:30:31] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So like, nothing's really changed for us in the last. You know, six to nine months since, for the portfolios that we own. Everything's continuing to come in as expected. We don't really see any, like, real top line impact. Whereas other businesses are seeing really top real top-line impact, they have wage inflation, they have supply chain issues.

[00:30:49] Sherrese Clarke Soares: They've got obviously interest rates. They have overall market volatility. And so all that will create kind of near-term uncertainty for those companies and therefore for those company valuations, which we just don't have that same type of volatility. So we're actually really excited about, you know, the marketplace in the near term because we think we'll have a great, you know, we'll have, we have a lot of dry powder and, in having a lot of dry powder, we also are positioned in an opportunity where we have the opportunity to really kind of lean in. So, that's us 

[00:31:21] Dan Runcie: Right. In a lot of ways, that was the pitch, I think, when a lot of these deals were happening, people were attracted to the non-correlated assets and here it is, right? Like, we're seeing what's happening elsewhere. 

[00:31:34] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So a lot of times for entertainment, me being around the entertainment market from an investing and financing perspective for the better part of 20 years, you're always telling people how non-correlated it is, but usually you're kind of having this conversation and the market's all working together and in parallel. Well, what's been interesting about the last few years, starting with COVID is that you've been able to in real-time, see like, oh yeah, it really is non-correlated. Everything else is moving, you know, down into the left and we're moving up into the right because of the way that we consume, because you're basically, again, content in particular, but music even more special, is connected to the human condition.

[00:32:13] Sherrese Clarke Soares: We all have a favorite song. You know, you're going to go to a birthday party or a wedding, you're going to hear music. You're going to go to a kid's performance at the end of the year, you're going to hear music. You know, we all have things that are attached to really important moments in our lives. And we use music and consume music more than we even realize.

[00:32:30] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Sometimes we consume it very, you know, proactively, but a lot of times we can consume it very subconsciously. We go into a grocery store, we go to the gym, we step into our car, listen to the radio. Like, you're engaging with something that again, you know, is very pervasive. It's ephemeral, and it's everywhere, and it allows it to really kind of be resilient on a relative basis.

[00:32:50] Dan Runcie: Right. And I think one of the differences too, between this timeframe, and let's say 2008, when there was the last recession, then the music industry itself, the business model and the state of the industry, just wasn't in the best place to begin with. Even beforehand, just given where things were with CD sales, and piracy, and digital downloads still, you know, and I guess you had, you still did have road tones and things like that at the time, but it wasn't where it is now, where yes, there has been a bit of a slide back with a lot of the stocks. However, music itself was in a strong place. So not only are you able to prove that out, there was an underlying business model here that continues to prove that people are going to listen to all of this music and consume all of this music, regardless of, you know, what may be happening outside.

[00:33:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think, look, you know, at the end of the day, all businesses will go through business model adjustments. You know, the music business went through theirs. The film business just recently went through theirs. And I think it's coming on the other side of that, where that's why you're seeing all the major film studios have, you know, a something plus right.

[00:33:57] Sherrese Clarke Soares: A Disney Plus you know, a Discover Plus, or what have you, and starting to move towards having a streaming model as well. So all businesses, no matter what shape or size, no matter what industry media or not will go through disruptions on how the business is consumed and will have these periods of time.

[00:34:14] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And I don't think the entertainment business is, you know, somehow isolated from that or immune to. But what you will see over the long duration is again, back to kind of like the underlying consumption. I'd say the other point to make is like, it's hard to look at stock prices in this current context to really kind of give you kind of a good point of view on volatility or, and, or valuation only because it's a reference point, but we also have to remember that most of the public markets is actually managed by quantitative balancing if you will, but not necessarily active and, and active and thoughtful and you know, investing strategies. A lot of it is very passively managed. And so as there is volatility that injects itself in the overall markets themselves, you see a lot of rebalancing of portfolios that actually just bring prices down that may have nothing to do with the underlying fundamentals of the asset class itself.

[00:35:07] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So that's just something to kind of keep in mind if you're looking at the stocks of universal Warner or any of the other kind of music traded stocks as well. 

[00:35:14] Dan Runcie: The other big piece with this, and you mentioned this earlier, is just the distinction between the tourists and the residents here, right? These types of things end up impacting much more of the tourists who maybe, they only had one foot in and it doesn't take much, you know, ripple for them to move, or shadow, adjust, or downscale what they were doing, where the people that were actually building. Are still in it. I mean, I'm still seeing startup deals happening.

[00:35:36] Dan Runcie: I'm still seeing rounds being closed. And I think that's, it's likely a signal to the people that were more so, you know, dedicated. And they're also just showed with the investment market, saw them as you know, from an opportunity perspective. So I, I think that's a, like you mentioned earlier, that's a big piece of this, too.

[00:35:54] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, I think that's what's going to differentiate us. Like, you know, our goal for HarbourView is to build an institution not dissimilar to a lot of people who I admire in the private equity space. And you know, there's been a lot of great work that's been done over the last 35, 40 years building kind of private equity, asset management businesses.

[00:36:12] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And we're hopeful to build kind of the next generation of that, and really build a scale of industrialized force in the entertainment and media space from a sector perspective. And so as we think about that, we really think about who and what we want to be and being residents of the space is a big piece of that because that's where we can identify places where we can really dig in and support high quality management teams that we really like and want to engage with.

[00:36:35] Sherrese Clarke Soares: That's where we can really dig in support, really having a long term view over owning these assets and really find ways to identify value when other investors, again, kind of have a relative value in their mind and have moved on to the next greatest or the next hottest thing. We want to really be focused on really kind of you know, building, obviously, we have to deliver great returns. And the only way that we can scale to being an industrialized force is having top-quartile returns. So we aim for that just as much as anybody else, but we think that there's a really great way of doing that as being a part of the ecosystem, you know, fully entrenched in the world versus just being there to be opportunistic.

[00:37:13] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. And yeah, shifting gears a little bit. One thing that I know is near and dear to both of us as Jamaicans, we got to talk about what the opportunities in reggae and ska look like. 

[00:37:25] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, listen. I'm a huge, huge, huge, huge fan. Like, people often ask me, I often get the question in these interviews. Like, what are you listening to? And if I'm really honest, you know, the car ride is the Bob Marley radio station. Every day, my kids are constantly like, why do we always have to listen to Bob Marley? And then every morning the kids get up to Here Comes the Band and Machel Montano, that's the way to kind start our high-energy day.

[00:37:50] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So we're big fans and believers. And to the extent that there's opportunities out there to acquire, we're happy, happy, happy to do it. You know, one thing for about us as a firm is we try not to be a pursuer. Like, if somebody's open to selling, we want to have every opportunity to, to take a look and to compete and to compete on the merits and put our best foot forward.

[00:38:12] Sherrese Clarke Soares: But we are not interested in making anybody feel like we're after just being vultures or after their work. But I say all that to say like, we don't own a lot of reggae and ska or soca today. But if anybody who is of those audiences is listening and is excited to sell, we are happy, happy, happy participants and active participants in that market, but we're never going to, you know, go and try to, you know, force people to, to give up rights or sell rights that, that they may not be ready to.

[00:38:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like it's only a matter of time before we see one of those deals or, or dance hall too. I feel like we're going to see it soon enough. 

[00:38:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes, exactly. Exactly. 

[00:38:49] Dan Runcie: Yeah. All right. Well, before we let you go, I do want to talk a bit about mentorship and apprenticeship 'cause I know that's something you've talked about in past interviews as well and just how important it is specifically in private equity and in finance and I want to hear how that's been really helpful for you and your career, and then extending that to the next generation. 

[00:39:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yeah, absolutely. So we're big believers in that. We're taking interns this summer, I believe one from Howard and one from HBS. So we're big believers in that. We're a small firm, but we're still having an intern class, which, you know, I think speaks to sort of this idea of giving people an opportunity to just come learn.

[00:39:29] Sherrese Clarke Soares: And us to learn from them and what they can bring to the table. So, yes, it is absolutely 100%. And in an apprenticeship business, I've learned so much from so many really great people, inclusive of all the people that I've worked with over the years at Morgan Stanley. You know, tons, tons of people I could give you lots, a whole long laundry list of names of people there, or even all my new partners at Apollo have been just great in, you know, rolling up their sleeves and thinking about things with me as we've been, you know, looking at, you know, various opportunities.

[00:40:01] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So that's been really great. I think one of the things that we're very focused on as well is really trying to be thoughtful about who we want to be as investors and how we want to, and how we think and we derive our own POV. So we, we try to basically take all the things that we want to take from those experiences, learning how to obviously, you know, do all the diligence and all that stuff are things that I've learned coming up, but having this strong conviction around what we care about, thematically, who we want to be as an investor, how we want to be seen as an investor, how we want to partner with management teams, I think has been things that we've sort of curated based on the experiences that we've had, but mentorship and apprenticeship has been huge part of my career and will never not be.

[00:40:47] Sherrese Clarke Soares: I mean, I, I have mentors today, like even to negotiate my deal that I negotiated with Apollo, I had great people like the great Stu Bergen, who's a good friend of mine, who was a senior executive at Warner music, who really helped me to think through that. Or Robert Smith who's obviously the CEO and founder of Vista Equity Partners, or Damien Dwin who, as a long-time friend of mine, has started multiple platforms have really been people who have been in my ear on like, okay, you could do this.

[00:41:11] Sherrese Clarke Soares: This is how you negotiate that. This is the value that you bring, make sure you stand firm or this or that. And it's been just really great to always have those people around, but it's also really empowering to also, you know, set a vision for what it is and who it is that we want the firm to be, and what it is we want our investing style to be, and what it is we want to be to the marketplace.

[00:41:30] Sherrese Clarke Soares: So, so it's been great. I've been very fortunate over the years to basically have exposure to people who have built great businesses, who have seen lots of things, seen lots of different points of adversity, but also made way, made time to pour back into me. And so we think it's responsible for us to pour back into others too. So we're very, very, very focused on that. 

[00:41:53] Dan Runcie: Well said. And yeah, I think especially people hearing that you're still reaching out to people to help close the big deals that you have given everything that you've accomplished is just a reminder that yes, like this doesn't stop. Everyone that you see is learning. You know, this is a constant thing for sure. 

[00:42:09] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes, 100%, 100%

[00:42:11] Dan Runcie: Well, Sherrese. This is great. Thank you so much. I think people are going to definitely feel like they'll get a closer lens as to how these deals go down and just a lot of the thought behind it, but I'm sure people will also be listening and waiting for the headlines to see the next deals to drop as well.

[00:42:27] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Yes. Yes. We'll be coming to a neighborhood, neighborhood near you soon. 

[00:42:34] Dan Runcie: And if people do want to keep track, where can they follow HarbourView or where can they do that? 

[00:42:39] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Follow HarbourView on LinkedIn, on Instagram also, and then, you know, check out our website. Yeah. 

[00:42:46] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. Sherrese, thanks again.

[00:42:48] Sherrese Clarke Soares: Thank you so much. So great to see you. Take care. 

[00:42:51] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.



]]> 2607 no How Drake and Beyoncé Drop New Music https://www.trapital.com/podcast After a massive week inside the music industry, I had to bring Wall Street Journal music and entertainment reporter Neil Shah onto Trapital for an emergence podcast on Drake’s surprise “Honestly, Nevermind” album drop and Beyonce’s own announcement for her first album in six years, “Resistance.” For Drake, he once again switched it up — not only his hairstyle (cornrows this time), but his musical style. Drake is known to experiment with different sounds and flows, but “Honestly, Nevermind” is a complete 180-degree turn for hip-hop’s biggest star. It’s a dance album and actual rapping from Drake is mostly absent, which not surprisingly, has led to a mostly lukewarm response.  Drake’s musical output has always been high, but “Honestly, Nevermind” ironically comes shortly after signing a new $400m deal with Universal Music Group. With a fresh contract and the economics of the streaming industry as a whole, Drake is incentivized for consistent music rather than “classics.” And whether fans and critics “catch up” to Drake’s new sound or not, he’s getting paid big-time from new releases either way.  And then there’s Beyonce. Details about her next album are slim besides its drop date, July 29. Announcing an album in advance runs contrary to her last release, “Lemonade”, which was surprise dropped in 2016 — a completely different era in streaming when exclusives were still a thing (Lemonade was on TIDAL only). Even for a star the size of Beyonce, one has to wonder what kind of pull she has in today’s streaming era. Neil and I covered all things Drake and Beyonce albums in this episode of Trapital. Here’s all our talking points: [2:31] First Reaction To Drake’s Surprise Album Announcement [7:12] Drake’s First Album Post-UMG $400 Million Deal [10:56] Significance Of Drake’s Pivot To Dance Music [13:25] Is Drake’s Popularity Losing Steam? [19:20] Did Beyonce’s Album Announcement Affect Drake’s Release? [23:06] Music Industry’s Evolution Since Beyonce’s Previous Album Drop [30:21] Will Beyonce’s Renaissance Album Be A Multi-Release? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Neil Shah, @NeilShahWSJ   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Thu, 23 Jun 2022 01:43:48 -0000 How Drake and Beyoncé Drop New Music full Dan Runcie After a massive week inside the music industry, I had to bring Wall Street Journal music and entertainment reporter Neil Shah onto Trapital for an emergence podcast on Drake’s surprise “Honestly, Nevermind” album drop and Beyonce’s own announcement for her first album in six years, “Resistance.” For Drake, he once again switched it up — not only his hairstyle (cornrows this time), but his musical style. Drake is known to experiment with different sounds and flows, but “Honestly, Nevermind” is a complete 180-degree turn for hip-hop’s biggest star. It’s a dance album and actual rapping from Drake is mostly absent, which not surprisingly, has led to a mostly lukewarm response.  Drake’s musical output has always been high, but “Honestly, Nevermind” ironically comes shortly after signing a new $400m deal with Universal Music Group. With a fresh contract and the economics of the streaming industry as a whole, Drake is incentivized for consistent music rather than “classics.” And whether fans and critics “catch up” to Drake’s new sound or not, he’s getting paid big-time from new releases either way.  And then there’s Beyonce. Details about her next album are slim besides its drop date, July 29. Announcing an album in advance runs contrary to her last release, “Lemonade”, which was surprise dropped in 2016 — a completely different era in streaming when exclusives were still a thing (Lemonade was on TIDAL only). Even for a star the size of Beyonce, one has to wonder what kind of pull she has in today’s streaming era. Neil and I covered all things Drake and Beyonce albums in this episode of Trapital. Here’s all our talking points: [2:31] First Reaction To Drake’s Surprise Album Announcement [7:12] Drake’s First Album Post-UMG $400 Million Deal [10:56] Significance Of Drake’s Pivot To Dance Music [13:25] Is Drake’s Popularity Losing Steam? [19:20] Did Beyonce’s Album Announcement Affect Drake’s Release? [23:06] Music Industry’s Evolution Since Beyonce’s Previous Album Drop [30:21] Will Beyonce’s Renaissance Album Be A Multi-Release? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Neil Shah, @NeilShahWSJ   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  After a massive week inside the music industry, I had to bring Wall Street Journal music and entertainment reporter Neil Shah onto Trapital for an emergence podcast on Drake’s surprise “Honestly, Nevermind” album drop and Beyonce’s own announcement for her first album in six years, “Resistance.”


For Drake, he once again switched it up — not only his hairstyle (cornrows this time), but his musical style. Drake is known to experiment with different sounds and flows, but “Honestly, Nevermind” is a complete 180-degree turn for hip-hop’s biggest star. It’s a dance album and actual rapping from Drake is mostly absent, which not surprisingly, has led to a mostly lukewarm response. 


Drake’s musical output has always been high, but “Honestly, Nevermind” ironically comes shortly after signing a new $400m deal with Universal Music Group. With a fresh contract and the economics of the streaming industry as a whole, Drake is incentivized for consistent music rather than “classics.” And whether fans and critics “catch up” to Drake’s new sound or not, he’s getting paid big-time from new releases either way. 


And then there’s Beyonce. Details about her next album are slim besides its drop date, July 29. Announcing an album in advance runs contrary to her last release, “Lemonade”, which was surprise dropped in 2016 — a completely different era in streaming when exclusives were still a thing (Lemonade was on TIDAL only). Even for a star the size of Beyonce, one has to wonder what kind of pull she has in today’s streaming era.


Neil and I covered all things Drake and Beyonce albums in this episode of Trapital. Here’s all our talking points:


[2:31] First Reaction To Drake’s Surprise Album Announcement

[7:12] Drake’s First Album Post-UMG $400 Million Deal

[10:56] Significance Of Drake’s Pivot To Dance Music

[13:25] Is Drake’s Popularity Losing Steam?

[19:20] Did Beyonce’s Album Announcement Affect Drake’s Release?

[23:06] Music Industry’s Evolution Since Beyonce’s Previous Album Drop

[30:21] Will Beyonce’s Renaissance Album Be A Multi-Release?



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Neil Shah, @NeilShahWSJ

 

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2191 no Broken Record: Missy Elliott https://www.trapital.com/podcast This week, we’re doing something a little different and sharing a fantastic episode from our friends over at the Broken Record podcast.  On Broken Record, acclaimed producer Rick Rubin, bestselling author Malcom Gladwell, and former New York Times editor Bruce Headlam talk with the musicians you love about their lives, inspiration, and craft.  Today, we’ll hear Rick’s conversation with one of the most innovative artists in music, Missy Elliot. Hope you enjoy! We’ll be back next week with a new episode of Trapital. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 17 Jun 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Broken Record: Missy Elliott full Dan Runcie This week, we’re doing something a little different and sharing a fantastic episode from our friends over at the Broken Record podcast.  On Broken Record, acclaimed producer Rick Rubin, bestselling author Malcom Gladwell, and former New York Times editor Bruce Headlam talk with the musicians you love about their lives, inspiration, and craft.  Today, we’ll hear Rick’s conversation with one of the most innovative artists in music, Missy Elliot. Hope you enjoy! We’ll be back next week with a new episode of Trapital. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  This week, we’re doing something a little different and sharing a fantastic episode from our friends over at the Broken Record podcast. 


On Broken Record, acclaimed producer Rick Rubin, bestselling author Malcom Gladwell, and former New York Times editor Bruce Headlam talk with the musicians you love about their lives, inspiration, and craft. 


Today, we’ll hear Rick’s conversation with one of the most innovative artists in music, Missy Elliot. Hope you enjoy! We’ll be back next week with a new episode of Trapital.


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

 

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 



]]> 3312 no Stem CEO Milana Lewis Wants To Get Artists Paid https://www.trapital.com/podcast Joining us on Trapital for the second time is Milana Lewis, co-founder and CEO of Stem. She last joined me at the end of 2019 and Stem has been in hyper-growth mode since then. Stem helps artist get paid in a clear and timely manner — not only through online-based financial tools, but music distribution too.  As a former talent agent for UTA, Milana noticed it wasn’t exactly cut and dry how artists were paid out. That issue is exacerbated inside the music industry due to murky record deals and no-so-transparent streaming numbers. And these problems are affecting artists of all sizes, from the Meek Mill’s of the world, to independent ones. Enter Stem, which just raised a $20 million. With the the fresh injection of capital, Stem wants to extend its digital tools across the industry even further. It’s a completely new level of transparency inside a industry that’s notorious for being the opposite. Here’s everything Milana and I covered in our interview:  [0:49] Stem Raised $20 Million In Latest Funding Round [7:03] The Differences Between Label And Independent Artists Are Becoming Smaller [11:07] Music Labels ARE Becoming More Artist Friendly [13:05] Companies That Stem Models Itself After [16:19] Payments Are An Issue Across Entertainment, Not Just Music [19:29] Technical Workers Pivoting Into The Creative Side [23:03] Stem’s Unique Positioning In Music Distribution  [33:47] Asking Artists “Why?” Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Milana Lewis, @milana   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION TRAPITAL 129 [00:00:00] Milana Lewis: I think a lot of people assume that, oh, you can get your music out there. And that's the only role of the distributor, but that's really a delivery company, right? There needs to be that distinction that people need to realize that, like, there's delivery services. And then there's like distributors and distribution services. And distribution services is not just getting your music into the store. [00:00:16] Milana Lewis: It's about positioning it. It's about being an advocate, thinking strategically about how you structure marketing plans. And there are a ton of services that even our clients expect from their distributor and that cannot be commoditized. [00:00:34] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Milana Lewis, the founder and CEO of Stem, a company that's on a mission to provide clarity and accountability to the music industry through modern financial tools for artists, labels, and the people they collaborate with. Milana is a return guest to the Trapital podcast. We did our first episode back in 2019, this was actually at Stem's office and this was down in LA. This one we did remote though. It was great to catch up because Stem just raised $20 million to further its mission. So in this episode, we talked all about the plans for that money, where things are going with Stem, where things are going in the music industry, and why this is so important. [00:01:31] Dan Runcie: And one of the reasons it's important is because of a op-ed that Milana recently wrote in Billboard which highlights the difference between artists independence and artists autonomy. And Milana's case is that artists really want to have autonomy with their careers. And they may still be willing to partner with others. [00:01:52] Dan Runcie: So we talked about the distinction there, what that means truly. And there are a few artists, examples that she use that we brought up here and also what that means for Stem in the future that it's building towards. So, we talked about that, and we talked about where Stem sits relative to other distribution services, what customer acquisition looks like for them, and some of the other ways that the business is structured, what's in place for the future. We also talked about a few recent trends happening in the industry, which is great to talk to the actual operators in this space building it. So I really enjoyed this conversation and I hope you do, too. Here's my chat with Milana Lewis. [00:02:31] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have a return guest, Milana Lewis, who is the founder and CEO of Stem, which just raised $20 million. So Milana welcome back to the podcast and give us an update. How are things going? And what's the latest, especially with the new round you all have?  [00:02:47] Milana Lewis: Thank you, Dan, for having me back. I love sort of seeing the growth of the show, too, and the audience, and just more and more people appreciating the work that you're doing. So it's fun to come back. 20 million, we raised it, gives us more runway fuel to continue building what we want to build. And we've been pretty heads down, just scaling up the team to execute.  [00:03:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about that in terms of scaling. I mean, I know that last time we had talked, it was shortly after a raise and a pivot that you all had as well. And I feel like post pandemic though. Now the market's a little bit of a different place, but there are more and more independent artists that want to create, that want to use things and want to build. [00:03:29] Dan Runcie: So how has that influence been, especially with you all and the plans you have and where you want to take things? [00:03:35] Milana Lewis: Yeah, for sure. It's funny, you sort of used the word pivot again, and we never really pivoted. So the vision for Stem has always been about how do we ensure a music future where people can expect to get paid in a clear and timely manner, right? And that's not one that exists today, quite frankly. And I think if anything, music has the worst reputation doing that out of if any other industry. And so when we think about how do we bring that mission to life, what we realized the best way to enter the market for us was to start a music distribution company. [00:04:05] Milana Lewis: If you think about it for an artist as a business owner, it all starts with the song. The song is the first product that they create. Without that song, there's not much of a business otherwise. And the innovation we brought to the market really was around how they split the earnings from that song. And for many different reasons, that was something that became really attractive to all types of artists, right? [00:04:26] Milana Lewis: Artists that are independent but larger and leaving a major label system, as well as artists that are just starting off their careers. And what we realized is that the problem that we wanted to solve was really one for the artists who were operating more like a business, so there was a team of different people around them who needed to get paid a percentage of their earnings. [00:04:44] Milana Lewis: There were various collaborators coming in and out of projects, and the complexity there is very different than the complexity of an artist who's more of a DIY artist. And when you and I last talked, we had to make the really hard decision to part ways with the clients that, you know, fit the profile of more of the early stage artists, where their complexity of the payments was a lot more simplified, where we felt like they already had enough tools they were using to do that. [00:05:08] Milana Lewis: And we wanted to serve the more business-type of artists. The artist has a business, we call them the entrepreneurial-like ones, where they're a little bit above sort of just figuring out where they're going and have an existing management team and lots of collaborators. So it wasn't necessarily a pivot as more of a refinement and focus on our core customer. [00:05:27] Milana Lewis: And the reason we started the music distribution business is because we needed to create our first client of that software. So we built a music distribution services company that was the first client of the software we were building 'cause back then in 2015, people didn't really understand what we were trying to do, right? They sort of thought about the world of royalty counting, the world of business management, and the world of distribution as being one that's completely different from each other. And what we were trying to do is sort of integrate all of these workflows and processes into one platform and build a tool that all of these people could use, with the end goal of an experience where, whether you're an artist, a songwriter, or producer, you can open up your app or log into your dashboard and you can see exactly how much money you're making off of the products that you helped create, which is your music, right? I hate calling music a product, but it's an incredibly valuable piece of content that has both cultural value, but also has enterprise value. [00:06:23] Milana Lewis: And we're obviously seeing that happening as it's being traded across so many different types of transactions, whether it's catalog buyers buying music rights or fans buying portions of earnings through NFTs of their favorite artist, like, related to their songs so that we know that there's a lot of value in the song. [00:06:41] Milana Lewis: And so how do we bring that to life? Well, one, trying to go and pitch that as an offering to the existing music labels and distributors was really hard. They were like, why do we need this? It's their problem, not ours. And creating the messaging around the experience for an artist is really compelling to the artists, but it didn't give enough of a business reason for anyone else to invest in these types of tools or developing them at the time. [00:07:03] Milana Lewis: So we thought, let's go build our own distributor. Let's set the precedent of what an incredible experience. It can be for an artist producer, songwriter, manager to know what they're getting paid when they're getting paid. So we did that, and that's what we've been focused on for the last, call it, five or six years of the business is really changing people's expectations around what it means to be artists-centric, clear, not transparent, but clear, and timely. [00:07:28] Milana Lewis: And I think that we've done a pretty tremendous job at that. We've witnessed other people emulating our features, right, which is now a thing that many distributors offer. We've seen major labels increase the cadence in which they're paying their artists, right? We've seen sort of more transparency happening across the board. [00:07:45] Milana Lewis: And yet it doesn't feel like it's enough. And so the reason we raised this round is really to take the tools that we've built for ourselves and our distribution class. And make them work for other labels and other distributors who want to be as clear with their artists, with their creators being producers, songwriters, et cetera, and not have to make the investment in building and maintaining those tools themselves. [00:08:08] Dan Runcie: And thinking about the importance of that, there are so many artists that are signed to major labels, we see them tweeting or share their thoughts often about how they don't necessarily know what's coming in, when is it coming in and how all of those things line up. So I do feel like for you all, there's a huge target audience there that, even though many people may assume that it's the independent artists that need to see this and major label artists would be fine, no, in many cases, it's likely the opposite. So there is that black box and the fact that a lot of the artists, especially the A-list ones, want it. That means that there's a need for it. [00:08:44] Milana Lewis: Yeah. Well, the thing that I'd love to sort of dive in on with you on what you just said is you're kind of creating a distinction between a major label artist and an independent artist as being two different types of artists. And I think when you look at the landscape today, it's not so black and white. Most artists are autonomous. [00:09:02] Milana Lewis: They choose which projects are with a major label and which projects are independent. And they want that autonomy. And if that's true, then this need becomes even moreso because now they're getting to a place where they're having to have that information come into them from so many different sources, distributors, platforms that just having one place to centralize it all is going to be really important for them to make good business decisions or just be in the know. [00:09:27] Dan Runcie: Right. So do you think that when artists are like, okay, I want to be independent, they're really saying they just want to have more control in general and that they just want to still be able to have the support of others, because I do think that that's kind of what it's getting at, right? It's not that the artists don't want to partner with others. [00:09:45] Dan Runcie: It's not that they're not willing to split things or that they want to wear every single hat themselves. They just want to be able to push things forward or be able to have a little bit more direction. And you had written a piece, it was a guest column in Billboard, that highlighted this, and you used Meek Mill as an example of this exact story. [00:10:05] Dan Runcie: Are there any other examples that come to mind that distinction? Especially because I do think that you hear so much about independence, but what it really is is people wanting to have a bit more push, even if there is someone else that they are dependent on.  [00:10:21] Milana Lewis: Yeah. I think it means something different for every artist. And I think it just depends on their previous experiences, right? When we sit with our clients and we ask them like, why do you want to be independent? Why is that important for you? We hear one of these following reasons, right? Control is one thing you talked about. We've also witnessed people say they actually don't care about control. [00:10:39] Milana Lewis: They just want more money and have more of the economic participation in that projects, right? That's another one that we hear a lot. The third one is not necessarily control, but more like creative autonomy and flexibility there where they don't really want some, they don't need to be A&R, right? Like, they just want someone else to help execute the activities that they are putting together as part of the release plan, or they know exactly they're going to collaborate with, like, they don't need a lot of the A&R services they're getting elsewhere. So why, why give up the freedom and being able to move agile and quickly just by partnering up with someone else, right? [00:11:16] Milana Lewis: So I think it's a combination of those. They either want to keep more of the economic upside. They want the creative liberation and freedom, and control is a big piece of that as well. And then the last piece that I actually think is pretty important is visibility, right? There's a lot of artists who are independent because they don't trust the existing system. [00:11:34] Milana Lewis: They're okay with giving up control. They're okay with giving up more of the economic upside to someone else, but they just don't feel like they can trust the way that the industry will work. And so they want to be maybe in control or they want to be just having that visibility. [00:11:49] Dan Runcie: Right. That creative piece is a big piece because especially now we're hearing the wave of major label artists that don't want to be forced to put out TikToks to promote their music. [00:12:01] Milana Lewis: Halsey, last week.  [00:12:02] Dan Runcie: Yup, and Florence from Florence + The Machine, too.  [00:12:05] Milana Lewis: Totally. Yeah. I mean, those are absurd, but that's the reality is like the minute that you work with a major entity like that, there's other people who are going to have a say in various parts of the rollout, which was in sometimes that's a good thing. And sometimes it's not, it just, once you hand over the project, it's theirs, it's not yours anymore. [00:12:24] Milana Lewis: And I don't believe that that's always the case. Like, I think in my op-ed I tried to make it really clear. Like, I don't think labels are bad. I actually believe that if anything we've seen happened in the last six or seven years that we've existed, is there, how do I say this? Their desire to become more aligned with their artists that they're working with, they want to be more artist-friendly. Like I just had a call today with someone who's pretty senior up in the c-suite at Sony. And, like, they're going through so many big initiatives internally to be more artist-friendly, to pay their people faster, to be more transparent. I mean, they made an announcement today where they're forgiving a lot of unrecouped debts. [00:12:59] Milana Lewis: Like, we're seeing the behavior and the nature and the sentiment of these entities changing and evolving, which is an amazing thing. It's just, how does that trickle through the whole entire ecosystem? And while they might have the resources to build it, there's so many other smaller entities and labels that provide incredible artist development services that are not capable of investing in their own infrastructure to keep up. [00:13:23] Milana Lewis: And I think that's really the opportunity for us is creating a turnkey solution for these companies that are so invested in being great partners for their artists, but just don't have the capacity to build their own technology.  [00:13:35] Dan Runcie: And that makes sense. And in your piece, too, you talked about how other industries have done a better job of this. [00:13:42] Dan Runcie: And I agree with you. I think music has come a long way, even someone like Olivia Rodrigo being able to get a more favorable deal. Like, she got early on as a sign of how far things have come along. But in terms of other industries, can you talk more about that and what are some of the other things that you've seen about how others have done it better? [00:14:00] Milana Lewis: Yeah. I mean, you know, Square's a company and you look up to, and it's one that I referenced quite a bit, but what's been amazing about what they've been able to do is not only provide the tools, but also provide the education for a small business owner to become more financially literate about their business, right?  [00:14:17] Milana Lewis: It's amazing how much quicker and better decision-making you can make when you're looking at the numbers consistently, and they're being surfaced to you where you don't have to like haul, haul through spreadsheets to figure out what's going on. And I still think that we're very much in the universe, in the music industry, where people are hauling through spreadsheets at every level to figure out what's going on. And that takes a lot of time. And I think what Square did so brilliantly is it took really complicated business decisions and surface data so that the person who's running the business can look at it and make more actionable decisions. Right. But it started with speeding up the ability for those people to accept payments in a digital form. [00:14:54] Milana Lewis: So when I first discovered Square is because I loved food trucks, and food trucks started off as a cash business. And then quickly it started seeing everyone being able to accept credit cards because they had that little Square attachment. And so now you're transacting all that data's being put into a system in real time. [00:15:09] Milana Lewis: So when you go to close your books or you look to see about your income at the end of the day, it's all in your Square app, you can see that happening there. You know, on a more sort of like enterprise level, it's incredible what Square and Brain or that Square, sorry, Stripe and Braintree have been able to allow startups to do, right? A lot of the whole on-demand economy, everything from Uber, and Lyft, and Airbnb could exist because of Stripe and Braintree, right? It took the headache away from a business that's trying to scale quickly and create an offering from having to figure out how you can accept credit cards, how you can transfer money between the customer and the person providing services and the platform. [00:15:47] Milana Lewis: And it did that in a way that super seamlessly. It didn't have to become something that every company had to figure out. It became something that companies could partner with them on and build everything else around it. And that enabled a lot of innovative things to exist. And music industry just hasn't had the benefit of that kind of infrastructure to enable a lot of the innovation that's happening right now. [00:16:07] Milana Lewis: Like, you know, we're spending quite a bit of time with a lot of the companies in the NFT space that are promising to share their royalties with their fans, but like they're struggling to actually make that happen because, in reality, those artists are making money from so many different sources in the real world. [00:16:21] Milana Lewis: How do you translate that income in a way that's accessible to transfer to someone else? And not just one other person, but thousands of other people?  [00:16:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I do think that music has a long way to go on that front. And I'm curious what you think about other areas of the entertainment industry, and if you think it's any better there, I know that you were in UA before this, so you definitely, you know, saw a lot there. What are your thoughts?  [00:16:45] Milana Lewis: No, like TV is the worst place. I think more than anything, especially because a lot of the streaming services and television don't pay a backend deal and they don't, they don't pay backend because they don't want to. Just for them, like that's a headache. [00:16:55] Milana Lewis: They don't want to have to figure out. . Film as well. Like, payments is a huge problem in our team and across the board. Music to me is just the easiest place to solve for it primarily because it shouldn't be as complicated as it is. It's a much more dynamic industry. Believe it or not. [00:17:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah.  [00:17:11] Milana Lewis: And the partners, the platforms provide a tremendous amount of data to supplement the income that they're paying out. Whereas like, if you're trying to figure out how much your show is being streamed on Netflix, when they pay you whatever they owe you, like they're not giving you that reporting data. [00:17:25] Dan Runcie: Right. I was listening to a podcast. They were talking with Steven Soderbergh and he was talking about how, the only way that he knows that he's doing a good job, or if he's making something else, they literally are like, Hey. The movie did well, do you want to make another one? And, okay, if you're Steven Soderbergh that may work, but if you're most of the other people trying to do stuff, there's no security. There's no way to feel like you have any sense of autonomy at all with that.  [00:17:51] Milana Lewis: Yeah, and honestly, like, the visibility problem isn't one that's just like limited to the artists' experience, right? [00:17:57] Milana Lewis: Like, the artist is at the center of it. It impacts the songwriters and producers and the publishers. It impacts the manager and their ability to support the artists that they're helping manage the careers of. And more importantly, it impacts the label. I mean, one of the things that I wrote about in the article that I did for billboard was just like, in reality, like I really laughed at myself thinking about being that marketing person or like that finance person at Meek Mill's label, having to figure out like, what do we owe him and how much have we spent on him? [00:18:25] Milana Lewis: Like, do they know, right? Like, how were they tracking the expenses? ' Cause every label we've talked to and done customer interviews with, they're using Google sheets. Maybe they're using QuickBooks. If they're super organized, they might have some sort of internal system for budgeting that they felt, but not everyone's touching that system, right? So there's just so much inefficiency and it, and to me, that's the part that I'm really excited about solving. Don't get me wrong. Like, I love the artist development side. We have a whole artist relations team that works on the distribution side of the business that cares a lot about the creative element of the work we're doing as well. But to me, all of that still needs really good infrastructure in order for those decisions to be more streamlined. And I think it's because everyone who comes to work into music wants to be as close to the artists or their creative process as possible 'cause that's super attractive. [00:19:15] Milana Lewis: It takes away from people who actually want to solve the, you know, the infrastructure problem that exists. One of the things we've noticed and is kind of like a funny, but also painful thing we deal with is like, we hire tons of people on the technical side, whether they're engineers or product people. [00:19:31] Milana Lewis: And I can't tell you how many of them have taken the job at Stem because they love music and want to be building solutions for artists only then to find out a couple months in that they actually don't want to be engineers. They want to be in the artist relation side.  [00:19:45] Dan Runcie: Wow.  [00:19:45] Milana Lewis: It happens all the time. And I thought that we were crazy. And then I talked to someone who was at Myspace back in the day, running engineering over there, and they had a similar problem. So people want to work in music because they want to be closer to the creative process of it, which is incredible. And it's so powerful to do that 'cause you're legitimately servicing people who create and shape culture, right?  [00:20:06] Milana Lewis: But not enough people want to actually build the picks-and-shovels of the business.  [00:20:10] Dan Runcie: Definitely.  [00:20:10] Milana Lewis: And we're sure looking for people who want to. [00:20:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And that point too reminds me of some of the thoughts I've heard for people that have looked at a lot of these newer solutions that have come up trying to solve particular problems, or helping people support artists, or just connecting fans to artists more directly. [00:20:28] Dan Runcie: And some of the critiques I've heard from people in the music industry is that these people, they may understand their business, or they may understand tech or investing, but they don't actually understand music beyond, you know, actually wanting to be in the culture and not like, as you said it, actually, you know, picking up the shovels and doing the work. [00:20:47] Dan Runcie: And I feel like that has grown even more. I mean, even more since the last time you and I did a podcast where you're just seeing more and more of that, and it's great to see the investive activity. It's great to see everything, but there's still a disconnect between the actual solutions that need to be solved. [00:21:04] Dan Runcie: That it's not always, you know, the person that finds the artist as the investment opportunity, being able to snap photos with them and post them on Instagram or whatever.  [00:21:14] Milana Lewis: Yeah, I mean, that's why we have the distribution business, right? Like, we created an internal customer that we can continue to build and evolve for who feels a lot of the same pain points, encounters, the same challenges that other labels and other distributors have. [00:21:28] Milana Lewis: And so we have them right next to us as we're building and developing. The other thing too, is when we hire people on our product team, you know, we've had a couple of people that come from. The finance world and FinTech, but the majority of our product managers and product leaders and designers come from the music business, right? [00:21:44] Milana Lewis: Like, one of our senior product managers, this woman, Sarah is incredible. She spent years working at Virgin Capital as a product manager there, but not product manager on the technical side, more on the creative, like, marketing side. So she's done that job working really closely with artists and she understands those painpoints and was a manager herself. [00:22:03] Milana Lewis: And then actually made a career pivot and decided to get into like technical product development, worked at other tech companies and is now at Stem. So, like, I think one of the things that puts us in a unique competitive advantage really is the fact that we're able to find these like unicorn humans who have the skillsets that like grew up in music, understand the music business intimately well, but have also developed pretty deep technical skills and understand how you built in scale technology offerings.  [00:22:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's the combo right there. I feel like everyone's after that, but when people have those people, they keep them close. They don't want to let them go. Understandably so, right? [00:22:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Shifting gears a bit because you did talk about distribution and that, of course, being one of the big parts of your service, I want to talk about growth and just what that process is like for customer acquisition, because I do know that music distribution has become a even more crowded space. [00:22:54] Dan Runcie: There's a lot of competitors, a lot of people try to say, Hey, this is the place you can, you know, distribute through or rehab what you need to help you. How has it been navigating that? And what are some of the things that have been most effective for you from a acquisition perspective?  [00:23:09] Milana Lewis: Yeah. So a couple of things, we built the distribution business for an entirely different purpose than many other people do. [00:23:14] Milana Lewis: So the things that many of the distributors care about, we don't. We don't care about market share. So you will never see us on the peeling of an artist. You will never see us taking claim over their releases. And the way that we think about our distribution service and offering is really intentional about how can we super serve clients. [00:23:30] Milana Lewis: So again, we don't take anyone. We've been incredibly intentional about the types of clients we want to serve. And it's because we really have a point of view for them. And we think that we can help position them in a way that other people can't. So growing and scaling the distribution business isn't our biggest priority. [00:23:46] Milana Lewis: Our biggest priority is going and scaling the tools that enable the distribution business to be successful. That doesn't mean that we're not going to continue to expand that team. I mean, a lot of the use of proceeds of this fundraising round is going towards hiring more people to service our clients on that. [00:24:01] Milana Lewis: And that's a direct response to the demand that we've seen in this space and just the fact that we legitimately have not had enough people to be able to take on the clients that come to us. So we've had to be a lot more intentional and turned down a lot more business than we can take on. So we want to be able to meet the market and, you know, but do it in a way where we're so conscious of our capacity, because the reason we started the distribution business is because we saw this, like, gap in the market where so many other distributors are going after market share and growth, that a lot of artists were just lost in the shuffle. [00:24:30] Milana Lewis: They were lost in the volume and our distribution offering is a direct response to that. And we're going to keep it boutique in that way, because we think that there needs to be a place for artists to get the attention they deserve at a price that's the right value exchange for the services they're getting. [00:24:46] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I hear that. I mean, and I think for you all specifically, having the distribution service be either not necessarily a testing ground, but just having a place to be like, Hey, this is serving the other tools and services that we have. I guess there's a few other models like that that we see. [00:25:03] Dan Runcie: Like, of course I think that UnitedMasters has, you know, their version to some extent where it does serve what they do on the ad side. And I think some of the others do, but I think that the tough thing is, if you're not either building the business in some type of way, you have some other type of thing that is one of the main value adds that you offer. [00:25:22] Dan Runcie: It's a commodity and just being able to differentiate yourselves in that perspective. And I feel like that's what, at least it's been not necessarily missing, because I do think it's a very real challenge, but it's a long tail. It's a long tail for a reason. But I do think that the companies, like yours, I mean, you obviously made the switch a few years ago to focus more on the select artists that were fitting that profile. [00:25:45] Dan Runcie: That ultimately I think is where the most successful companies can be. Otherwise you're trying to just jab anyone you can. And I mean, as you know, that could be a very costly game.  [00:25:55] Milana Lewis: Yeah. And quite frankly, the commodification of distribution really pisses me off because it's not a business that's easily that, like, it shouldn't be a race to the bottom on fees. [00:26:05] Milana Lewis: I think a lot of people assume that, oh, you can get your music out there. And that's the only role of the distributor, but that's really a delivery company, right? There needs to be that distinction. And people need to realize that, like, there's delivery services and then there's like distributors and distribution services. And distribution services is not just getting your music into the store. [00:26:21] Milana Lewis: It's about positioning it. It's about being an advocate, thinking strategically about how you structure marketing plans. And there are a ton of services that even our clients expect from their distributor and that cannot be commoditized, but that also makes it challenging because a lot of it is relationship driven. [00:26:36] Milana Lewis: It's hard to scale because you have to be able to be attentive and give the right focus to the clients that have a point of view. So I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of confusion from sort of the market around, like, the difference between a distributor and a delivery mechanism. And I just want those to be clarified because yes, delivery is commoditized. Distribution should not be. [00:26:57] Dan Runcie: That's a fair distinction. That's a fair distinction. So when new artists are either considering you or they're considering others, or you do want to bring them on board, what's your pitch? What is the big thing that you and the artist relations team say to bring them on and make them feel like this is a place where their career can level up? [00:27:16] Milana Lewis: Yeah, I wish I had Kristin on here with me 'cause she does the pitch so much better than I do. And she's the president of that side of the business. So she spends the most time thinking about it and kind of consistently refining the offering there. But the unique thing is is that we don't actually start pitching unless we understand what that client is looking for. [00:27:32] Milana Lewis: Because again, like we have the ability to shape our value proposition to our clients, depending on what their needs are. So some clients come to us and they say, we just want someone that's going to pick up the phone. We need them. We want you out of our way, and we want money, and we want that money as cheap as possible, and that's it. And it's like, great. We're going to give you the tools so you can handle it yourself. You'll have a dedicated account manager that will get on the phone with you whenever you need them to, you can text them. You don't have, like, a support line you call, you have that human being's phone number. And they're very responsive because they're not servicing hundreds of artists at a time. [00:28:04] Milana Lewis: And we're going to show you the options that we can give you as an advance, but you're going to control the terms. So if you want the cheaper fee, take less money up front and take in tranches. You can take the same exact of my money, but instead of withdrawing, call it a million dollars at once, take it out in tranches of a hundred thousand, you need to spend a million dollars next week, right? [00:28:21] Milana Lewis: Like if you're not, don't do that. And we're going to pay you every single month and we're going to pay all the people you want us to pay on your behalf so that you can stay focused on the things you want to focus on, right? That sort of like the tried and true, like keep things, easy pitch. Those are the most exciting clients to work with, but there's enough labels that feel that way. [00:28:39] Milana Lewis: And every so often they maybe want to get advice and strategy from us and that's great. But for most clients, they come to us because they want a real thought partner, right? I think one of the reasons why a lot more artists are not independent, quite frankly, is because them and their management team don't want to take on all the work on their own, right? I think people have, like, the criticism of, like, they always want someone else to blame. Like, they want to be able to blame the label. That is a direct statement and quote that our mutual friend says a lot. But you know, what they really want is someone that's going to understand the narrative of the artist and the positioning and advocate on their behalf to the DSPs. [00:29:15] Milana Lewis: And our pitch for them is that we're not delivering, again, hundreds of songs a week or a month or pitches for that reason. When we deliver something, the DSPs pay attention to it because we're so intentional and curated. So your pitch is going to stand out. It's going to be delivered. People are going to hear it. We can't guarantee you're going to get placement, but we're going to go out of our way to make sure that the positioning is there for your client. [00:29:35] Milana Lewis: So we've done a lot of unique things, too, with our clients to build those relationships with the editors. Everything from sending curated boxes to renting suites, suites at big sports games and inviting people out to build that relationship personally with the artists. Like, we try to be a lot more hands-on and experiential than I think many other distributors are with their clients. [00:29:57] Milana Lewis: So we take that, like, indie label approach to supporting the artist, but we don't overpromise and say, Hey, we have a big radio team. Hey, we have a whole in-house digital marketing team. Like, all of that stuff, we're very clear that we're going to outsource that, but you're going to be in control of how that money is being spent and you're going to be in control of picking the right partners. [00:30:15] Milana Lewis: So we're really more dot connectors and strategists, and we're just upfront about what we do, what we don't do. And I think a lot of people find that refreshing and that builds trust and people like that.  [00:30:25] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I know a lot of this has been focused more on the streaming side because that is where so many of these playlists pitching and that type of conversation happens. [00:30:34] Dan Runcie: But do you get a lot of interests from artists who are focused on what support you may be able to provide if you all do on vinyl or some of the other non-streaming music revenues? Just because of how much...  [00:30:47] Milana Lewis: No, we have vendors that we can partner with for vinyl distribution and physical. It's not a core competency of ours, and it's not one that we want to handle either. [00:30:55] Milana Lewis: So we're honest, we're just like, we don't do that, but here's why people who do, and we've worked with them, we've had great experiences and we'll help you pick the right one because, if you're only looking to print this number of units, they're probably not the best partner this person is. If you're in this, like, there's so many considerations. We have a whole strategy team that we've built out where this is their full-time job is getting to know the landscape of all of these service providers and vendors, vetting them out, understanding what they're good at, so that when clients come to us, we can make the right recommendations.  [00:31:21] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And does the same thing exist as well for artists that may be reaching out to you, whether they want NFTs or they want to do something Web 3.0 related? [00:31:29] Milana Lewis: Everything. Yeah. So we have a whole digital strategy team as well, where their job is getting to know all of the digital platforms and tools and new companies emerging that if anyone wants to partner with Snapchat in an interesting way or Peloton or Royal or Mint Songs, like whoever that could be, whether it's even like Discord and other platforms, like they're an expert and they can talk, they can be a good conduit but also just educate our clients on that as well. [00:31:55] Dan Runcie: Right. And I feel like a lot of their jobs who is likely just sifting through the noise and what actually is worthwhile and what isn't. How do you feel about that? [00:32:03] Milana Lewis: That was my job. I mean, that was my job at UTA, right? My job was getting to know every single technology company that could possibly partner with any of the agency's clients. Started with me as a person that I grew into a team of like, I don't know, like 30 or 40 people today that do that. There's a lot of land to cover there.  [00:32:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's, every new day there's something else. And I do think that in general, it makes, at least from my perspective, as you know, more from the strategy perspective, like, having the focus is there. And I know everyone is trying to incorporate something into their web, something in Web 3.0, especially if they're trying to, like, raise money and stuff. [00:32:37] Dan Runcie: But I feel like after a while, like that stuff gets old, not old in a way that obviously that is the future, but old into like, okay, you can't just put lipstick on a pig, you actually needed to have something. So yeah.  [00:32:49] Milana Lewis: Yeah. I mean, for us, the number one question we ask is why. Why, like, why do you want to do this? Because that'll determine, it's like, if you don't know why and you want to do something because you want to jump on it, you want to understand it. Then we realize that you're still in discovery mode, right? You're still trying to figure out why you want to do it so we can change the way that we approach it with you and take you more on an educational journey versus taking that as directive. [00:33:10] Milana Lewis: And I think it just like being really, again, like, intentional with your client. And you can't do that across thousands and thousands of them, you have to be selective because that's the level of servicing that those people require.  [00:33:23] Dan Runcie: How often do you feel like you get a good answer when you ask why?  [00:33:26] Milana Lewis: You know, it's a really great question, is that I'm not present in a lot of those conversations. So I'd love to have someone else answer that for you.  [00:33:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I got to imagine that at the level of artists you're talking to anyway, there likely is some of that built in to begin with. But every artist is in discovery mode to some extent, right? So I get that. Yeah. But yeah, this was good. [00:33:47] Dan Runcie: It was great to recap and just hear how things are going and get a pretty good idea of where things are heading in the future. But what are some upcoming milestones or announcements? What are some things that you can share that we should keep our eyes out for?  [00:34:01] Milana Lewis: Oh, that's a good question. When is this podcast gonna be posted, we think? [00:34:05] Dan Runcie: End of June. [00:34:06] Milana Lewis: Cool. Okay. So you'll be hearing about some of the first few labels we're partnering with to power their dashboards and payouts because we're actively developing that right now, quietly with a couple of big players. So we're excited to announce that. Some are independent. Some are part of the major label ecosystem. [00:34:23] Milana Lewis: So pretty excited to get people's reactions on that. The advance is business. The scale product is growing pretty tremendously. So we're going to make some exciting announcements about how we're positioning that moving forward. And then just continuing to keep our heads down and building an expanded team. [00:34:40] Milana Lewis: There's a lot of new, exciting people that have joined us that we haven't talked about yet, but we will soon.  [00:34:44] Dan Runcie: Nice, good stuff. Good stuff. Well, Milana, thanks for coming on. This was great.  [00:34:49] Milana Lewis: Thanks for having me.  [00:34:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And for the people following. They'll know to find you and keep up with everything, but keep up the great work. It's great having you on.  [00:34:57] Milana Lewis: Thanks for having me again. And thanks all for listening who made it this far.  [00:35:01] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group. Chat, posted in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. [00:35:14] Dan Runcie: continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use apple podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating. And we've reviewed tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you. In advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 10 Jun 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Stem CEO Milana Lewis Wants To Get Artists Paid full Dan Runcie Joining us on Trapital for the second time is Milana Lewis, co-founder and CEO of Stem. She last joined me at the end of 2019 and Stem has been in hyper-growth mode since then. Stem helps artist get paid in a clear and timely manner — not only through online-based financial tools, but music distribution too.  As a former talent agent for UTA, Milana noticed it wasn’t exactly cut and dry how artists were paid out. That issue is exacerbated inside the music industry due to murky record deals and no-so-transparent streaming numbers. And these problems are affecting artists of all sizes, from the Meek Mill’s of the world, to independent ones. Enter Stem, which just raised a $20 million. With the the fresh injection of capital, Stem wants to extend its digital tools across the industry even further. It’s a completely new level of transparency inside a industry that’s notorious for being the opposite. Here’s everything Milana and I covered in our interview:  [0:49] Stem Raised $20 Million In Latest Funding Round [7:03] The Differences Between Label And Independent Artists Are Becoming Smaller [11:07] Music Labels ARE Becoming More Artist Friendly [13:05] Companies That Stem Models Itself After [16:19] Payments Are An Issue Across Entertainment, Not Just Music [19:29] Technical Workers Pivoting Into The Creative Side [23:03] Stem’s Unique Positioning In Music Distribution  [33:47] Asking Artists “Why?” Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Milana Lewis, @milana   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION TRAPITAL 129 [00:00:00] Milana Lewis: I think a lot of people assume that, oh, you can get your music out there. And that's the only role of the distributor, but that's really a delivery company, right? There needs to be that distinction that people need to realize that, like, there's delivery services. And then there's like distributors and distribution services. And distribution services is not just getting your music into the store. [00:00:16] Milana Lewis: It's about positioning it. It's about being an advocate, thinking strategically about how you structure marketing plans. And there are a ton of services that even our clients expect from their distributor and that cannot be commoditized. [00:00:34] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Milana Lewis, the founder and CEO of Stem, a company that's on a mission to provide clarity and accountability to the music industry through modern financial tools for artists, labels, and the people they collaborate with. Milana is a return guest to the Trapital podcast. We did our first episode back in 2019, this was actually at Stem's office and this was down in LA. This one we did remote though. It was great to catch up because Stem just raised $20 million to further its mission. So in this episode, we talked all about the plans for that money, where things are going with Stem, where things are going in the music industry, and why this is so important. [00:01:31] Dan Runcie: And one of the reasons it's important is because of a op-ed that Milana recently wrote in Billboard which highlights the difference between artists independence and artists autonomy. And Milana's case is that artists really want to have autonomy with their careers. And they may still be willing to partner with others. [00:01:52] Dan Runcie: So we talked about the distinction there, what that means truly. And there are a few artists, examples that she use that we brought up here and also what that means for Stem in the future that it's building towards. So, we talked about that, and we talked about where Stem sits relative to other distribution services, what customer acquisition looks like for them, and some of the other ways that the business is structured, what's in place for the future. We also talked about a few recent trends happening in the industry, which is great to talk to the actual operators in this space building it. So I really enjoyed this conversation and I hope you do, too. Here's my chat with Milana Lewis. [00:02:31] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have a return guest, Milana Lewis, who is the founder and CEO of Stem, which just raised $20 million. So Milana welcome back to the podcast and give us an update. How are things going? And what's the latest, especially with the new round you all have?  [00:02:47] Milana Lewis: Thank you, Dan, for having me back. I love sort of seeing the growth of the show, too, and the audience, and just more and more people appreciating the work that you're doing. So it's fun to come back. 20 million, we raised it, gives us more runway fuel to continue building what we want to build. And we've been pretty heads down, just scaling up the team to execute.  [00:03:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about that in terms of scaling. I mean, I know that last time we had talked, it was shortly after a raise and a pivot that you all had as well. And I feel like post pandemic though. Now the market's a little bit of a different place, but there are more and more independent artists that want to create, that want to use things and want to build. [00:03:29] Dan Runcie: So how has that influence been, especially with you all and the plans you have and where you want to take things? [00:03:35] Milana Lewis: Yeah, for sure. It's funny, you sort of used the word pivot again, and we never really pivoted. So the vision for Stem has always been about how do we ensure a music future where people can expect to get paid in a clear and timely manner, right? And that's not one that exists today, quite frankly. And I think if anything, music has the worst reputation doing that out of if any other industry. And so when we think about how do we bring that mission to life, what we realized the best way to enter the market for us was to start a music distribution company. [00:04:05] Milana Lewis: If you think about it for an artist as a business owner, it all starts with the song. The song is the first product that they create. Without that song, there's not much of a business otherwise. And the innovation we brought to the market really was around how they split the earnings from that song. And for many different reasons, that was something that became really attractive to all types of artists, right? [00:04:26] Milana Lewis: Artists that are independent but larger and leaving a major label system, as well as artists that are just starting off their careers. And what we realized is that the problem that we wanted to solve was really one for the artists who were operating more like a business, so there was a team of different people around them who needed to get paid a percentage of their earnings. [00:04:44] Milana Lewis: There were various collaborators coming in and out of projects, and the complexity there is very different than the complexity of an artist who's more of a DIY artist. And when you and I last talked, we had to make the really hard decision to part ways with the clients that, you know, fit the profile of more of the early stage artists, where their complexity of the payments was a lot more simplified, where we felt like they already had enough tools they were using to do that. [00:05:08] Milana Lewis: And we wanted to serve the more business-type of artists. The artist has a business, we call them the entrepreneurial-like ones, where they're a little bit above sort of just figuring out where they're going and have an existing management team and lots of collaborators. So it wasn't necessarily a pivot as more of a refinement and focus on our core customer. [00:05:27] Milana Lewis: And the reason we started the music distribution business is because we needed to create our first client of that software. So we built a music distribution services company that was the first client of the software we were building 'cause back then in 2015, people didn't really understand what we were trying to do, right? They sort of thought about the world of royalty counting, the world of business management, and the world of distribution as being one that's completely different from each other. And what we were trying to do is sort of integrate all of these workflows and processes into one platform and build a tool that all of these people could use, with the end goal of an experience where, whether you're an artist, a songwriter, or producer, you can open up your app or log into your dashboard and you can see exactly how much money you're making off of the products that you helped create, which is your music, right? I hate calling music a product, but it's an incredibly valuable piece of content that has both cultural value, but also has enterprise value. [00:06:23] Milana Lewis: And we're obviously seeing that happening as it's being traded across so many different types of transactions, whether it's catalog buyers buying music rights or fans buying portions of earnings through NFTs of their favorite artist, like, related to their songs so that we know that there's a lot of value in the song. [00:06:41] Milana Lewis: And so how do we bring that to life? Well, one, trying to go and pitch that as an offering to the existing music labels and distributors was really hard. They were like, why do we need this? It's their problem, not ours. And creating the messaging around the experience for an artist is really compelling to the artists, but it didn't give enough of a business reason for anyone else to invest in these types of tools or developing them at the time. [00:07:03] Milana Lewis: So we thought, let's go build our own distributor. Let's set the precedent of what an incredible experience. It can be for an artist producer, songwriter, manager to know what they're getting paid when they're getting paid. So we did that, and that's what we've been focused on for the last, call it, five or six years of the business is really changing people's expectations around what it means to be artists-centric, clear, not transparent, but clear, and timely. [00:07:28] Milana Lewis: And I think that we've done a pretty tremendous job at that. We've witnessed other people emulating our features, right, which is now a thing that many distributors offer. We've seen major labels increase the cadence in which they're paying their artists, right? We've seen sort of more transparency happening across the board. [00:07:45] Milana Lewis: And yet it doesn't feel like it's enough. And so the reason we raised this round is really to take the tools that we've built for ourselves and our distribution class. And make them work for other labels and other distributors who want to be as clear with their artists, with their creators being producers, songwriters, et cetera, and not have to make the investment in building and maintaining those tools themselves. [00:08:08] Dan Runcie: And thinking about the importance of that, there are so many artists that are signed to major labels, we see them tweeting or share their thoughts often about how they don't necessarily know what's coming in, when is it coming in and how all of those things line up. So I do feel like for you all, there's a huge target audience there that, even though many people may assume that it's the independent artists that need to see this and major label artists would be fine, no, in many cases, it's likely the opposite. So there is that black box and the fact that a lot of the artists, especially the A-list ones, want it. That means that there's a need for it. [00:08:44] Milana Lewis: Yeah. Well, the thing that I'd love to sort of dive in on with you on what you just said is you're kind of creating a distinction between a major label artist and an independent artist as being two different types of artists. And I think when you look at the landscape today, it's not so black and white. Most artists are autonomous. [00:09:02] Milana Lewis: They choose which projects are with a major label and which projects are independent. And they want that autonomy. And if that's true, then this need becomes even moreso because now they're getting to a place where they're having to have that information come into them from so many different sources, distributors, platforms that just having one place to centralize it all is going to be really important for them to make good business decisions or just be in the know. [00:09:27] Dan Runcie: Right. So do you think that when artists are like, okay, I want to be independent, they're really saying they just want to have more control in general and that they just want to still be able to have the support of others, because I do think that that's kind of what it's getting at, right? It's not that the artists don't want to partner with others. [00:09:45] Dan Runcie: It's not that they're not willing to split things or that they want to wear every single hat themselves. They just want to be able to push things forward or be able to have a little bit more direction. And you had written a piece, it was a guest column in Billboard, that highlighted this, and you used Meek Mill as an example of this exact story. [00:10:05] Dan Runcie: Are there any other examples that come to mind that distinction? Especially because I do think that you hear so much about independence, but what it really is is people wanting to have a bit more push, even if there is someone else that they are dependent on.  [00:10:21] Milana Lewis: Yeah. I think it means something different for every artist. And I think it just depends on their previous experiences, right? When we sit with our clients and we ask them like, why do you want to be independent? Why is that important for you? We hear one of these following reasons, right? Control is one thing you talked about. We've also witnessed people say they actually don't care about control. [00:10:39] Milana Lewis: They just want more money and have more of the economic participation in that projects, right? That's another one that we hear a lot. The third one is not necessarily control, but more like creative autonomy and flexibility there where they don't really want some, they don't need to be A&R, right? Like, they just want someone else to help execute the activities that they are putting together as part of the release plan, or they know exactly they're going to collaborate with, like, they don't need a lot of the A&R services they're getting elsewhere. So why, why give up the freedom and being able to move agile and quickly just by partnering up with someone else, right? [00:11:16] Milana Lewis: So I think it's a combination of those. They either want to keep more of the economic upside. They want the creative liberation and freedom, and control is a big piece of that as well. And then the last piece that I actually think is pretty important is visibility, right? There's a lot of artists who are independent because they don't trust the existing system. [00:11:34] Milana Lewis: They're okay with giving up control. They're okay with giving up more of the economic upside to someone else, but they just don't feel like they can trust the way that the industry will work. And so they want to be maybe in control or they want to be just having that visibility. [00:11:49] Dan Runcie: Right. That creative piece is a big piece because especially now we're hearing the wave of major label artists that don't want to be forced to put out TikToks to promote their music. [00:12:01] Milana Lewis: Halsey, last week.  [00:12:02] Dan Runcie: Yup, and Florence from Florence + The Machine, too.  [00:12:05] Milana Lewis: Totally. Yeah. I mean, those are absurd, but that's the reality is like the minute that you work with a major entity like that, there's other people who are going to have a say in various parts of the rollout, which was in sometimes that's a good thing. And sometimes it's not, it just, once you hand over the project, it's theirs, it's not yours anymore. [00:12:24] Milana Lewis: And I don't believe that that's always the case. Like, I think in my op-ed I tried to make it really clear. Like, I don't think labels are bad. I actually believe that if anything we've seen happened in the last six or seven years that we've existed, is there, how do I say this? Their desire to become more aligned with their artists that they're working with, they want to be more artist-friendly. Like I just had a call today with someone who's pretty senior up in the c-suite at Sony. And, like, they're going through so many big initiatives internally to be more artist-friendly, to pay their people faster, to be more transparent. I mean, they made an announcement today where they're forgiving a lot of unrecouped debts. [00:12:59] Milana Lewis: Like, we're seeing the behavior and the nature and the sentiment of these entities changing and evolving, which is an amazing thing. It's just, how does that trickle through the whole entire ecosystem? And while they might have the resources to build it, there's so many other smaller entities and labels that provide incredible artist development services that are not capable of investing in their own infrastructure to keep up. [00:13:23] Milana Lewis: And I think that's really the opportunity for us is creating a turnkey solution for these companies that are so invested in being great partners for their artists, but just don't have the capacity to build their own technology.  [00:13:35] Dan Runcie: And that makes sense. And in your piece, too, you talked about how other industries have done a better job of this. [00:13:42] Dan Runcie: And I agree with you. I think music has come a long way, even someone like Olivia Rodrigo being able to get a more favorable deal. Like, she got early on as a sign of how far things have come along. But in terms of other industries, can you talk more about that and what are some of the other things that you've seen about how others have done it better? [00:14:00] Milana Lewis: Yeah. I mean, you know, Square's a company and you look up to, and it's one that I referenced quite a bit, but what's been amazing about what they've been able to do is not only provide the tools, but also provide the education for a small business owner to become more financially literate about their business, right?  [00:14:17] Milana Lewis: It's amazing how much quicker and better decision-making you can make when you're looking at the numbers consistently, and they're being surfaced to you where you don't have to like haul, haul through spreadsheets to figure out what's going on. And I still think that we're very much in the universe, in the music industry, where people are hauling through spreadsheets at every level to figure out what's going on. And that takes a lot of time. And I think what Square did so brilliantly is it took really complicated business decisions and surface data so that the person who's running the business can look at it and make more actionable decisions. Right. But it started with speeding up the ability for those people to accept payments in a digital form. [00:14:54] Milana Lewis: So when I first discovered Square is because I loved food trucks, and food trucks started off as a cash business. And then quickly it started seeing everyone being able to accept credit cards because they had that little Square attachment. And so now you're transacting all that data's being put into a system in real time. [00:15:09] Milana Lewis: So when you go to close your books or you look to see about your income at the end of the day, it's all in your Square app, you can see that happening there. You know, on a more sort of like enterprise level, it's incredible what Square and Brain or that Square, sorry, Stripe and Braintree have been able to allow startups to do, right? A lot of the whole on-demand economy, everything from Uber, and Lyft, and Airbnb could exist because of Stripe and Braintree, right? It took the headache away from a business that's trying to scale quickly and create an offering from having to figure out how you can accept credit cards, how you can transfer money between the customer and the person providing services and the platform. [00:15:47] Milana Lewis: And it did that in a way that super seamlessly. It didn't have to become something that every company had to figure out. It became something that companies could partner with them on and build everything else around it. And that enabled a lot of innovative things to exist. And music industry just hasn't had the benefit of that kind of infrastructure to enable a lot of the innovation that's happening right now. [00:16:07] Milana Lewis: Like, you know, we're spending quite a bit of time with a lot of the companies in the NFT space that are promising to share their royalties with their fans, but like they're struggling to actually make that happen because, in reality, those artists are making money from so many different sources in the real world. [00:16:21] Milana Lewis: How do you translate that income in a way that's accessible to transfer to someone else? And not just one other person, but thousands of other people?  [00:16:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I do think that music has a long way to go on that front. And I'm curious what you think about other areas of the entertainment industry, and if you think it's any better there, I know that you were in UA before this, so you definitely, you know, saw a lot there. What are your thoughts?  [00:16:45] Milana Lewis: No, like TV is the worst place. I think more than anything, especially because a lot of the streaming services and television don't pay a backend deal and they don't, they don't pay backend because they don't want to. Just for them, like that's a headache. [00:16:55] Milana Lewis: They don't want to have to figure out. . Film as well. Like, payments is a huge problem in our team and across the board. Music to me is just the easiest place to solve for it primarily because it shouldn't be as complicated as it is. It's a much more dynamic industry. Believe it or not. [00:17:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah.  [00:17:11] Milana Lewis: And the partners, the platforms provide a tremendous amount of data to supplement the income that they're paying out. Whereas like, if you're trying to figure out how much your show is being streamed on Netflix, when they pay you whatever they owe you, like they're not giving you that reporting data. [00:17:25] Dan Runcie: Right. I was listening to a podcast. They were talking with Steven Soderbergh and he was talking about how, the only way that he knows that he's doing a good job, or if he's making something else, they literally are like, Hey. The movie did well, do you want to make another one? And, okay, if you're Steven Soderbergh that may work, but if you're most of the other people trying to do stuff, there's no security. There's no way to feel like you have any sense of autonomy at all with that.  [00:17:51] Milana Lewis: Yeah, and honestly, like, the visibility problem isn't one that's just like limited to the artists' experience, right? [00:17:57] Milana Lewis: Like, the artist is at the center of it. It impacts the songwriters and producers and the publishers. It impacts the manager and their ability to support the artists that they're helping manage the careers of. And more importantly, it impacts the label. I mean, one of the things that I wrote about in the article that I did for billboard was just like, in reality, like I really laughed at myself thinking about being that marketing person or like that finance person at Meek Mill's label, having to figure out like, what do we owe him and how much have we spent on him? [00:18:25] Milana Lewis: Like, do they know, right? Like, how were they tracking the expenses? ' Cause every label we've talked to and done customer interviews with, they're using Google sheets. Maybe they're using QuickBooks. If they're super organized, they might have some sort of internal system for budgeting that they felt, but not everyone's touching that system, right? So there's just so much inefficiency and it, and to me, that's the part that I'm really excited about solving. Don't get me wrong. Like, I love the artist development side. We have a whole artist relations team that works on the distribution side of the business that cares a lot about the creative element of the work we're doing as well. But to me, all of that still needs really good infrastructure in order for those decisions to be more streamlined. And I think it's because everyone who comes to work into music wants to be as close to the artists or their creative process as possible 'cause that's super attractive. [00:19:15] Milana Lewis: It takes away from people who actually want to solve the, you know, the infrastructure problem that exists. One of the things we've noticed and is kind of like a funny, but also painful thing we deal with is like, we hire tons of people on the technical side, whether they're engineers or product people. [00:19:31] Milana Lewis: And I can't tell you how many of them have taken the job at Stem because they love music and want to be building solutions for artists only then to find out a couple months in that they actually don't want to be engineers. They want to be in the artist relation side.  [00:19:45] Dan Runcie: Wow.  [00:19:45] Milana Lewis: It happens all the time. And I thought that we were crazy. And then I talked to someone who was at Myspace back in the day, running engineering over there, and they had a similar problem. So people want to work in music because they want to be closer to the creative process of it, which is incredible. And it's so powerful to do that 'cause you're legitimately servicing people who create and shape culture, right?  [00:20:06] Milana Lewis: But not enough people want to actually build the picks-and-shovels of the business.  [00:20:10] Dan Runcie: Definitely.  [00:20:10] Milana Lewis: And we're sure looking for people who want to. [00:20:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And that point too reminds me of some of the thoughts I've heard for people that have looked at a lot of these newer solutions that have come up trying to solve particular problems, or helping people support artists, or just connecting fans to artists more directly. [00:20:28] Dan Runcie: And some of the critiques I've heard from people in the music industry is that these people, they may understand their business, or they may understand tech or investing, but they don't actually understand music beyond, you know, actually wanting to be in the culture and not like, as you said it, actually, you know, picking up the shovels and doing the work. [00:20:47] Dan Runcie: And I feel like that has grown even more. I mean, even more since the last time you and I did a podcast where you're just seeing more and more of that, and it's great to see the investive activity. It's great to see everything, but there's still a disconnect between the actual solutions that need to be solved. [00:21:04] Dan Runcie: That it's not always, you know, the person that finds the artist as the investment opportunity, being able to snap photos with them and post them on Instagram or whatever.  [00:21:14] Milana Lewis: Yeah, I mean, that's why we have the distribution business, right? Like, we created an internal customer that we can continue to build and evolve for who feels a lot of the same pain points, encounters, the same challenges that other labels and other distributors have. [00:21:28] Milana Lewis: And so we have them right next to us as we're building and developing. The other thing too, is when we hire people on our product team, you know, we've had a couple of people that come from. The finance world and FinTech, but the majority of our product managers and product leaders and designers come from the music business, right? [00:21:44] Milana Lewis: Like, one of our senior product managers, this woman, Sarah is incredible. She spent years working at Virgin Capital as a product manager there, but not product manager on the technical side, more on the creative, like, marketing side. So she's done that job working really closely with artists and she understands those painpoints and was a manager herself. [00:22:03] Milana Lewis: And then actually made a career pivot and decided to get into like technical product development, worked at other tech companies and is now at Stem. So, like, I think one of the things that puts us in a unique competitive advantage really is the fact that we're able to find these like unicorn humans who have the skillsets that like grew up in music, understand the music business intimately well, but have also developed pretty deep technical skills and understand how you built in scale technology offerings.  [00:22:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's the combo right there. I feel like everyone's after that, but when people have those people, they keep them close. They don't want to let them go. Understandably so, right? [00:22:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Shifting gears a bit because you did talk about distribution and that, of course, being one of the big parts of your service, I want to talk about growth and just what that process is like for customer acquisition, because I do know that music distribution has become a even more crowded space. [00:22:54] Dan Runcie: There's a lot of competitors, a lot of people try to say, Hey, this is the place you can, you know, distribute through or rehab what you need to help you. How has it been navigating that? And what are some of the things that have been most effective for you from a acquisition perspective?  [00:23:09] Milana Lewis: Yeah. So a couple of things, we built the distribution business for an entirely different purpose than many other people do. [00:23:14] Milana Lewis: So the things that many of the distributors care about, we don't. We don't care about market share. So you will never see us on the peeling of an artist. You will never see us taking claim over their releases. And the way that we think about our distribution service and offering is really intentional about how can we super serve clients. [00:23:30] Milana Lewis: So again, we don't take anyone. We've been incredibly intentional about the types of clients we want to serve. And it's because we really have a point of view for them. And we think that we can help position them in a way that other people can't. So growing and scaling the distribution business isn't our biggest priority. [00:23:46] Milana Lewis: Our biggest priority is going and scaling the tools that enable the distribution business to be successful. That doesn't mean that we're not going to continue to expand that team. I mean, a lot of the use of proceeds of this fundraising round is going towards hiring more people to service our clients on that. [00:24:01] Milana Lewis: And that's a direct response to the demand that we've seen in this space and just the fact that we legitimately have not had enough people to be able to take on the clients that come to us. So we've had to be a lot more intentional and turned down a lot more business than we can take on. So we want to be able to meet the market and, you know, but do it in a way where we're so conscious of our capacity, because the reason we started the distribution business is because we saw this, like, gap in the market where so many other distributors are going after market share and growth, that a lot of artists were just lost in the shuffle. [00:24:30] Milana Lewis: They were lost in the volume and our distribution offering is a direct response to that. And we're going to keep it boutique in that way, because we think that there needs to be a place for artists to get the attention they deserve at a price that's the right value exchange for the services they're getting. [00:24:46] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I hear that. I mean, and I think for you all specifically, having the distribution service be either not necessarily a testing ground, but just having a place to be like, Hey, this is serving the other tools and services that we have. I guess there's a few other models like that that we see. [00:25:03] Dan Runcie: Like, of course I think that UnitedMasters has, you know, their version to some extent where it does serve what they do on the ad side. And I think some of the others do, but I think that the tough thing is, if you're not either building the business in some type of way, you have some other type of thing that is one of the main value adds that you offer. [00:25:22] Dan Runcie: It's a commodity and just being able to differentiate yourselves in that perspective. And I feel like that's what, at least it's been not necessarily missing, because I do think it's a very real challenge, but it's a long tail. It's a long tail for a reason. But I do think that the companies, like yours, I mean, you obviously made the switch a few years ago to focus more on the select artists that were fitting that profile. [00:25:45] Dan Runcie: That ultimately I think is where the most successful companies can be. Otherwise you're trying to just jab anyone you can. And I mean, as you know, that could be a very costly game.  [00:25:55] Milana Lewis: Yeah. And quite frankly, the commodification of distribution really pisses me off because it's not a business that's easily that, like, it shouldn't be a race to the bottom on fees. [00:26:05] Milana Lewis: I think a lot of people assume that, oh, you can get your music out there. And that's the only role of the distributor, but that's really a delivery company, right? There needs to be that distinction. And people need to realize that, like, there's delivery services and then there's like distributors and distribution services. And distribution services is not just getting your music into the store. [00:26:21] Milana Lewis: It's about positioning it. It's about being an advocate, thinking strategically about how you structure marketing plans. And there are a ton of services that even our clients expect from their distributor and that cannot be commoditized, but that also makes it challenging because a lot of it is relationship driven. [00:26:36] Milana Lewis: It's hard to scale because you have to be able to be attentive and give the right focus to the clients that have a point of view. So I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of confusion from sort of the market around, like, the difference between a distributor and a delivery mechanism. And I just want those to be clarified because yes, delivery is commoditized. Distribution should not be. [00:26:57] Dan Runcie: That's a fair distinction. That's a fair distinction. So when new artists are either considering you or they're considering others, or you do want to bring them on board, what's your pitch? What is the big thing that you and the artist relations team say to bring them on and make them feel like this is a place where their career can level up? [00:27:16] Milana Lewis: Yeah, I wish I had Kristin on here with me 'cause she does the pitch so much better than I do. And she's the president of that side of the business. So she spends the most time thinking about it and kind of consistently refining the offering there. But the unique thing is is that we don't actually start pitching unless we understand what that client is looking for. [00:27:32] Milana Lewis: Because again, like we have the ability to shape our value proposition to our clients, depending on what their needs are. So some clients come to us and they say, we just want someone that's going to pick up the phone. We need them. We want you out of our way, and we want money, and we want that money as cheap as possible, and that's it. And it's like, great. We're going to give you the tools so you can handle it yourself. You'll have a dedicated account manager that will get on the phone with you whenever you need them to, you can text them. You don't have, like, a support line you call, you have that human being's phone number. And they're very responsive because they're not servicing hundreds of artists at a time. [00:28:04] Milana Lewis: And we're going to show you the options that we can give you as an advance, but you're going to control the terms. So if you want the cheaper fee, take less money up front and take in tranches. You can take the same exact of my money, but instead of withdrawing, call it a million dollars at once, take it out in tranches of a hundred thousand, you need to spend a million dollars next week, right? [00:28:21] Milana Lewis: Like if you're not, don't do that. And we're going to pay you every single month and we're going to pay all the people you want us to pay on your behalf so that you can stay focused on the things you want to focus on, right? That sort of like the tried and true, like keep things, easy pitch. Those are the most exciting clients to work with, but there's enough labels that feel that way. [00:28:39] Milana Lewis: And every so often they maybe want to get advice and strategy from us and that's great. But for most clients, they come to us because they want a real thought partner, right? I think one of the reasons why a lot more artists are not independent, quite frankly, is because them and their management team don't want to take on all the work on their own, right? I think people have, like, the criticism of, like, they always want someone else to blame. Like, they want to be able to blame the label. That is a direct statement and quote that our mutual friend says a lot. But you know, what they really want is someone that's going to understand the narrative of the artist and the positioning and advocate on their behalf to the DSPs. [00:29:15] Milana Lewis: And our pitch for them is that we're not delivering, again, hundreds of songs a week or a month or pitches for that reason. When we deliver something, the DSPs pay attention to it because we're so intentional and curated. So your pitch is going to stand out. It's going to be delivered. People are going to hear it. We can't guarantee you're going to get placement, but we're going to go out of our way to make sure that the positioning is there for your client. [00:29:35] Milana Lewis: So we've done a lot of unique things, too, with our clients to build those relationships with the editors. Everything from sending curated boxes to renting suites, suites at big sports games and inviting people out to build that relationship personally with the artists. Like, we try to be a lot more hands-on and experiential than I think many other distributors are with their clients. [00:29:57] Milana Lewis: So we take that, like, indie label approach to supporting the artist, but we don't overpromise and say, Hey, we have a big radio team. Hey, we have a whole in-house digital marketing team. Like, all of that stuff, we're very clear that we're going to outsource that, but you're going to be in control of how that money is being spent and you're going to be in control of picking the right partners. [00:30:15] Milana Lewis: So we're really more dot connectors and strategists, and we're just upfront about what we do, what we don't do. And I think a lot of people find that refreshing and that builds trust and people like that.  [00:30:25] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I know a lot of this has been focused more on the streaming side because that is where so many of these playlists pitching and that type of conversation happens. [00:30:34] Dan Runcie: But do you get a lot of interests from artists who are focused on what support you may be able to provide if you all do on vinyl or some of the other non-streaming music revenues? Just because of how much...  [00:30:47] Milana Lewis: No, we have vendors that we can partner with for vinyl distribution and physical. It's not a core competency of ours, and it's not one that we want to handle either. [00:30:55] Milana Lewis: So we're honest, we're just like, we don't do that, but here's why people who do, and we've worked with them, we've had great experiences and we'll help you pick the right one because, if you're only looking to print this number of units, they're probably not the best partner this person is. If you're in this, like, there's so many considerations. We have a whole strategy team that we've built out where this is their full-time job is getting to know the landscape of all of these service providers and vendors, vetting them out, understanding what they're good at, so that when clients come to us, we can make the right recommendations.  [00:31:21] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And does the same thing exist as well for artists that may be reaching out to you, whether they want NFTs or they want to do something Web 3.0 related? [00:31:29] Milana Lewis: Everything. Yeah. So we have a whole digital strategy team as well, where their job is getting to know all of the digital platforms and tools and new companies emerging that if anyone wants to partner with Snapchat in an interesting way or Peloton or Royal or Mint Songs, like whoever that could be, whether it's even like Discord and other platforms, like they're an expert and they can talk, they can be a good conduit but also just educate our clients on that as well. [00:31:55] Dan Runcie: Right. And I feel like a lot of their jobs who is likely just sifting through the noise and what actually is worthwhile and what isn't. How do you feel about that? [00:32:03] Milana Lewis: That was my job. I mean, that was my job at UTA, right? My job was getting to know every single technology company that could possibly partner with any of the agency's clients. Started with me as a person that I grew into a team of like, I don't know, like 30 or 40 people today that do that. There's a lot of land to cover there.  [00:32:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's, every new day there's something else. And I do think that in general, it makes, at least from my perspective, as you know, more from the strategy perspective, like, having the focus is there. And I know everyone is trying to incorporate something into their web, something in Web 3.0, especially if they're trying to, like, raise money and stuff. [00:32:37] Dan Runcie: But I feel like after a while, like that stuff gets old, not old in a way that obviously that is the future, but old into like, okay, you can't just put lipstick on a pig, you actually needed to have something. So yeah.  [00:32:49] Milana Lewis: Yeah. I mean, for us, the number one question we ask is why. Why, like, why do you want to do this? Because that'll determine, it's like, if you don't know why and you want to do something because you want to jump on it, you want to understand it. Then we realize that you're still in discovery mode, right? You're still trying to figure out why you want to do it so we can change the way that we approach it with you and take you more on an educational journey versus taking that as directive. [00:33:10] Milana Lewis: And I think it just like being really, again, like, intentional with your client. And you can't do that across thousands and thousands of them, you have to be selective because that's the level of servicing that those people require.  [00:33:23] Dan Runcie: How often do you feel like you get a good answer when you ask why?  [00:33:26] Milana Lewis: You know, it's a really great question, is that I'm not present in a lot of those conversations. So I'd love to have someone else answer that for you.  [00:33:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I got to imagine that at the level of artists you're talking to anyway, there likely is some of that built in to begin with. But every artist is in discovery mode to some extent, right? So I get that. Yeah. But yeah, this was good. [00:33:47] Dan Runcie: It was great to recap and just hear how things are going and get a pretty good idea of where things are heading in the future. But what are some upcoming milestones or announcements? What are some things that you can share that we should keep our eyes out for?  [00:34:01] Milana Lewis: Oh, that's a good question. When is this podcast gonna be posted, we think? [00:34:05] Dan Runcie: End of June. [00:34:06] Milana Lewis: Cool. Okay. So you'll be hearing about some of the first few labels we're partnering with to power their dashboards and payouts because we're actively developing that right now, quietly with a couple of big players. So we're excited to announce that. Some are independent. Some are part of the major label ecosystem. [00:34:23] Milana Lewis: So pretty excited to get people's reactions on that. The advance is business. The scale product is growing pretty tremendously. So we're going to make some exciting announcements about how we're positioning that moving forward. And then just continuing to keep our heads down and building an expanded team. [00:34:40] Milana Lewis: There's a lot of new, exciting people that have joined us that we haven't talked about yet, but we will soon.  [00:34:44] Dan Runcie: Nice, good stuff. Good stuff. Well, Milana, thanks for coming on. This was great.  [00:34:49] Milana Lewis: Thanks for having me.  [00:34:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And for the people following. They'll know to find you and keep up with everything, but keep up the great work. It's great having you on.  [00:34:57] Milana Lewis: Thanks for having me again. And thanks all for listening who made it this far.  [00:35:01] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group. Chat, posted in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. [00:35:14] Dan Runcie: continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use apple podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating. And we've reviewed tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you. In advance. Talk to you next week. Joining us on Trapital for the second time is Milana Lewis, co-founder and CEO of Stem. She last joined me at the end of 2019 and Stem has been in hyper-growth mode since then. Stem helps artist get paid in a clear and timely manner — not only through online-based financial tools, but music distribution too. 


As a former talent agent for UTA, Milana noticed it wasn’t exactly cut and dry how artists were paid out. That issue is exacerbated inside the music industry due to murky record deals and no-so-transparent streaming numbers. And these problems are affecting artists of all sizes, from the Meek Mill’s of the world, to independent ones.


Enter Stem, which just raised a $20 million. With the the fresh injection of capital, Stem wants to extend its digital tools across the industry even further. It’s a completely new level of transparency inside a industry that’s notorious for being the opposite. Here’s everything Milana and I covered in our interview: 


[0:49] Stem Raised $20 Million In Latest Funding Round

[7:03] The Differences Between Label And Independent Artists Are Becoming Smaller

[11:07] Music Labels ARE Becoming More Artist Friendly

[13:05] Companies That Stem Models Itself After

[16:19] Payments Are An Issue Across Entertainment, Not Just Music

[19:29] Technical Workers Pivoting Into The Creative Side

[23:03] Stem’s Unique Positioning In Music Distribution 

[33:47] Asking Artists “Why?”


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Milana Lewis, @milana

 

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 


TRANSCRIPTION


TRAPITAL 129

[00:00:00] Milana Lewis: I think a lot of people assume that, oh, you can get your music out there. And that's the only role of the distributor, but that's really a delivery company, right? There needs to be that distinction that people need to realize that, like, there's delivery services. And then there's like distributors and distribution services. And distribution services is not just getting your music into the store.

[00:00:16] Milana Lewis: It's about positioning it. It's about being an advocate, thinking strategically about how you structure marketing plans. And there are a ton of services that even our clients expect from their distributor and that cannot be commoditized.

[00:00:34] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Milana Lewis, the founder and CEO of Stem, a company that's on a mission to provide clarity and accountability to the music industry through modern financial tools for artists, labels, and the people they collaborate with. Milana is a return guest to the Trapital podcast. We did our first episode back in 2019, this was actually at Stem's office and this was down in LA. This one we did remote though. It was great to catch up because Stem just raised $20 million to further its mission. So in this episode, we talked all about the plans for that money, where things are going with Stem, where things are going in the music industry, and why this is so important.

[00:01:31] Dan Runcie: And one of the reasons it's important is because of a op-ed that Milana recently wrote in Billboard which highlights the difference between artists independence and artists autonomy. And Milana's case is that artists really want to have autonomy with their careers. And they may still be willing to partner with others.

[00:01:52] Dan Runcie: So we talked about the distinction there, what that means truly. And there are a few artists, examples that she use that we brought up here and also what that means for Stem in the future that it's building towards. So, we talked about that, and we talked about where Stem sits relative to other distribution services, what customer acquisition looks like for them, and some of the other ways that the business is structured, what's in place for the future. We also talked about a few recent trends happening in the industry, which is great to talk to the actual operators in this space building it. So I really enjoyed this conversation and I hope you do, too. Here's my chat with Milana Lewis.

[00:02:31] Dan Runcie: All right. Today we have a return guest, Milana Lewis, who is the founder and CEO of Stem, which just raised $20 million. So Milana welcome back to the podcast and give us an update. How are things going? And what's the latest, especially with the new round you all have? 

[00:02:47] Milana Lewis: Thank you, Dan, for having me back. I love sort of seeing the growth of the show, too, and the audience, and just more and more people appreciating the work that you're doing. So it's fun to come back. 20 million, we raised it, gives us more runway fuel to continue building what we want to build. And we've been pretty heads down, just scaling up the team to execute. 

[00:03:08] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about that in terms of scaling. I mean, I know that last time we had talked, it was shortly after a raise and a pivot that you all had as well. And I feel like post pandemic though. Now the market's a little bit of a different place, but there are more and more independent artists that want to create, that want to use things and want to build.

[00:03:29] Dan Runcie: So how has that influence been, especially with you all and the plans you have and where you want to take things?

[00:03:35] Milana Lewis: Yeah, for sure. It's funny, you sort of used the word pivot again, and we never really pivoted. So the vision for Stem has always been about how do we ensure a music future where people can expect to get paid in a clear and timely manner, right? And that's not one that exists today, quite frankly. And I think if anything, music has the worst reputation doing that out of if any other industry. And so when we think about how do we bring that mission to life, what we realized the best way to enter the market for us was to start a music distribution company.

[00:04:05] Milana Lewis: If you think about it for an artist as a business owner, it all starts with the song. The song is the first product that they create. Without that song, there's not much of a business otherwise. And the innovation we brought to the market really was around how they split the earnings from that song. And for many different reasons, that was something that became really attractive to all types of artists, right?

[00:04:26] Milana Lewis: Artists that are independent but larger and leaving a major label system, as well as artists that are just starting off their careers. And what we realized is that the problem that we wanted to solve was really one for the artists who were operating more like a business, so there was a team of different people around them who needed to get paid a percentage of their earnings.

[00:04:44] Milana Lewis: There were various collaborators coming in and out of projects, and the complexity there is very different than the complexity of an artist who's more of a DIY artist. And when you and I last talked, we had to make the really hard decision to part ways with the clients that, you know, fit the profile of more of the early stage artists, where their complexity of the payments was a lot more simplified, where we felt like they already had enough tools they were using to do that.

[00:05:08] Milana Lewis: And we wanted to serve the more business-type of artists. The artist has a business, we call them the entrepreneurial-like ones, where they're a little bit above sort of just figuring out where they're going and have an existing management team and lots of collaborators. So it wasn't necessarily a pivot as more of a refinement and focus on our core customer.

[00:05:27] Milana Lewis: And the reason we started the music distribution business is because we needed to create our first client of that software. So we built a music distribution services company that was the first client of the software we were building 'cause back then in 2015, people didn't really understand what we were trying to do, right? They sort of thought about the world of royalty counting, the world of business management, and the world of distribution as being one that's completely different from each other. And what we were trying to do is sort of integrate all of these workflows and processes into one platform and build a tool that all of these people could use, with the end goal of an experience where, whether you're an artist, a songwriter, or producer, you can open up your app or log into your dashboard and you can see exactly how much money you're making off of the products that you helped create, which is your music, right? I hate calling music a product, but it's an incredibly valuable piece of content that has both cultural value, but also has enterprise value.

[00:06:23] Milana Lewis: And we're obviously seeing that happening as it's being traded across so many different types of transactions, whether it's catalog buyers buying music rights or fans buying portions of earnings through NFTs of their favorite artist, like, related to their songs so that we know that there's a lot of value in the song.

[00:06:41] Milana Lewis: And so how do we bring that to life? Well, one, trying to go and pitch that as an offering to the existing music labels and distributors was really hard. They were like, why do we need this? It's their problem, not ours. And creating the messaging around the experience for an artist is really compelling to the artists, but it didn't give enough of a business reason for anyone else to invest in these types of tools or developing them at the time.

[00:07:03] Milana Lewis: So we thought, let's go build our own distributor. Let's set the precedent of what an incredible experience. It can be for an artist producer, songwriter, manager to know what they're getting paid when they're getting paid. So we did that, and that's what we've been focused on for the last, call it, five or six years of the business is really changing people's expectations around what it means to be artists-centric, clear, not transparent, but clear, and timely.

[00:07:28] Milana Lewis: And I think that we've done a pretty tremendous job at that. We've witnessed other people emulating our features, right, which is now a thing that many distributors offer. We've seen major labels increase the cadence in which they're paying their artists, right? We've seen sort of more transparency happening across the board.

[00:07:45] Milana Lewis: And yet it doesn't feel like it's enough. And so the reason we raised this round is really to take the tools that we've built for ourselves and our distribution class. And make them work for other labels and other distributors who want to be as clear with their artists, with their creators being producers, songwriters, et cetera, and not have to make the investment in building and maintaining those tools themselves.

[00:08:08] Dan Runcie: And thinking about the importance of that, there are so many artists that are signed to major labels, we see them tweeting or share their thoughts often about how they don't necessarily know what's coming in, when is it coming in and how all of those things line up. So I do feel like for you all, there's a huge target audience there that, even though many people may assume that it's the independent artists that need to see this and major label artists would be fine, no, in many cases, it's likely the opposite. So there is that black box and the fact that a lot of the artists, especially the A-list ones, want it. That means that there's a need for it.

[00:08:44] Milana Lewis: Yeah. Well, the thing that I'd love to sort of dive in on with you on what you just said is you're kind of creating a distinction between a major label artist and an independent artist as being two different types of artists. And I think when you look at the landscape today, it's not so black and white. Most artists are autonomous.

[00:09:02] Milana Lewis: They choose which projects are with a major label and which projects are independent. And they want that autonomy. And if that's true, then this need becomes even moreso because now they're getting to a place where they're having to have that information come into them from so many different sources, distributors, platforms that just having one place to centralize it all is going to be really important for them to make good business decisions or just be in the know.

[00:09:27] Dan Runcie: Right. So do you think that when artists are like, okay, I want to be independent, they're really saying they just want to have more control in general and that they just want to still be able to have the support of others, because I do think that that's kind of what it's getting at, right? It's not that the artists don't want to partner with others.

[00:09:45] Dan Runcie: It's not that they're not willing to split things or that they want to wear every single hat themselves. They just want to be able to push things forward or be able to have a little bit more direction. And you had written a piece, it was a guest column in Billboard, that highlighted this, and you used Meek Mill as an example of this exact story.

[00:10:05] Dan Runcie: Are there any other examples that come to mind that distinction? Especially because I do think that you hear so much about independence, but what it really is is people wanting to have a bit more push, even if there is someone else that they are dependent on. 

[00:10:21] Milana Lewis: Yeah. I think it means something different for every artist. And I think it just depends on their previous experiences, right? When we sit with our clients and we ask them like, why do you want to be independent? Why is that important for you? We hear one of these following reasons, right? Control is one thing you talked about. We've also witnessed people say they actually don't care about control.

[00:10:39] Milana Lewis: They just want more money and have more of the economic participation in that projects, right? That's another one that we hear a lot. The third one is not necessarily control, but more like creative autonomy and flexibility there where they don't really want some, they don't need to be A&R, right? Like, they just want someone else to help execute the activities that they are putting together as part of the release plan, or they know exactly they're going to collaborate with, like, they don't need a lot of the A&R services they're getting elsewhere. So why, why give up the freedom and being able to move agile and quickly just by partnering up with someone else, right?

[00:11:16] Milana Lewis: So I think it's a combination of those. They either want to keep more of the economic upside. They want the creative liberation and freedom, and control is a big piece of that as well. And then the last piece that I actually think is pretty important is visibility, right? There's a lot of artists who are independent because they don't trust the existing system.

[00:11:34] Milana Lewis: They're okay with giving up control. They're okay with giving up more of the economic upside to someone else, but they just don't feel like they can trust the way that the industry will work. And so they want to be maybe in control or they want to be just having that visibility.

[00:11:49] Dan Runcie: Right. That creative piece is a big piece because especially now we're hearing the wave of major label artists that don't want to be forced to put out TikToks to promote their music.

[00:12:01] Milana Lewis: Halsey, last week. 

[00:12:02] Dan Runcie: Yup, and Florence from Florence + The Machine, too. 

[00:12:05] Milana Lewis: Totally. Yeah. I mean, those are absurd, but that's the reality is like the minute that you work with a major entity like that, there's other people who are going to have a say in various parts of the rollout, which was in sometimes that's a good thing. And sometimes it's not, it just, once you hand over the project, it's theirs, it's not yours anymore.

[00:12:24] Milana Lewis: And I don't believe that that's always the case. Like, I think in my op-ed I tried to make it really clear. Like, I don't think labels are bad. I actually believe that if anything we've seen happened in the last six or seven years that we've existed, is there, how do I say this? Their desire to become more aligned with their artists that they're working with, they want to be more artist-friendly. Like I just had a call today with someone who's pretty senior up in the c-suite at Sony. And, like, they're going through so many big initiatives internally to be more artist-friendly, to pay their people faster, to be more transparent. I mean, they made an announcement today where they're forgiving a lot of unrecouped debts.

[00:12:59] Milana Lewis: Like, we're seeing the behavior and the nature and the sentiment of these entities changing and evolving, which is an amazing thing. It's just, how does that trickle through the whole entire ecosystem? And while they might have the resources to build it, there's so many other smaller entities and labels that provide incredible artist development services that are not capable of investing in their own infrastructure to keep up.

[00:13:23] Milana Lewis: And I think that's really the opportunity for us is creating a turnkey solution for these companies that are so invested in being great partners for their artists, but just don't have the capacity to build their own technology. 

[00:13:35] Dan Runcie: And that makes sense. And in your piece, too, you talked about how other industries have done a better job of this.

[00:13:42] Dan Runcie: And I agree with you. I think music has come a long way, even someone like Olivia Rodrigo being able to get a more favorable deal. Like, she got early on as a sign of how far things have come along. But in terms of other industries, can you talk more about that and what are some of the other things that you've seen about how others have done it better?

[00:14:00] Milana Lewis: Yeah. I mean, you know, Square's a company and you look up to, and it's one that I referenced quite a bit, but what's been amazing about what they've been able to do is not only provide the tools, but also provide the education for a small business owner to become more financially literate about their business, right? 

[00:14:17] Milana Lewis: It's amazing how much quicker and better decision-making you can make when you're looking at the numbers consistently, and they're being surfaced to you where you don't have to like haul, haul through spreadsheets to figure out what's going on. And I still think that we're very much in the universe, in the music industry, where people are hauling through spreadsheets at every level to figure out what's going on. And that takes a lot of time. And I think what Square did so brilliantly is it took really complicated business decisions and surface data so that the person who's running the business can look at it and make more actionable decisions. Right. But it started with speeding up the ability for those people to accept payments in a digital form.

[00:14:54] Milana Lewis: So when I first discovered Square is because I loved food trucks, and food trucks started off as a cash business. And then quickly it started seeing everyone being able to accept credit cards because they had that little Square attachment. And so now you're transacting all that data's being put into a system in real time.

[00:15:09] Milana Lewis: So when you go to close your books or you look to see about your income at the end of the day, it's all in your Square app, you can see that happening there. You know, on a more sort of like enterprise level, it's incredible what Square and Brain or that Square, sorry, Stripe and Braintree have been able to allow startups to do, right? A lot of the whole on-demand economy, everything from Uber, and Lyft, and Airbnb could exist because of Stripe and Braintree, right? It took the headache away from a business that's trying to scale quickly and create an offering from having to figure out how you can accept credit cards, how you can transfer money between the customer and the person providing services and the platform.

[00:15:47] Milana Lewis: And it did that in a way that super seamlessly. It didn't have to become something that every company had to figure out. It became something that companies could partner with them on and build everything else around it. And that enabled a lot of innovative things to exist. And music industry just hasn't had the benefit of that kind of infrastructure to enable a lot of the innovation that's happening right now.

[00:16:07] Milana Lewis: Like, you know, we're spending quite a bit of time with a lot of the companies in the NFT space that are promising to share their royalties with their fans, but like they're struggling to actually make that happen because, in reality, those artists are making money from so many different sources in the real world.

[00:16:21] Milana Lewis: How do you translate that income in a way that's accessible to transfer to someone else? And not just one other person, but thousands of other people? 

[00:16:28] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I do think that music has a long way to go on that front. And I'm curious what you think about other areas of the entertainment industry, and if you think it's any better there, I know that you were in UA before this, so you definitely, you know, saw a lot there. What are your thoughts? 

[00:16:45] Milana Lewis: No, like TV is the worst place. I think more than anything, especially because a lot of the streaming services and television don't pay a backend deal and they don't, they don't pay backend because they don't want to. Just for them, like that's a headache.

[00:16:55] Milana Lewis: They don't want to have to figure out. . Film as well. Like, payments is a huge problem in our team and across the board. Music to me is just the easiest place to solve for it primarily because it shouldn't be as complicated as it is. It's a much more dynamic industry. Believe it or not.

[00:17:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah. 

[00:17:11] Milana Lewis: And the partners, the platforms provide a tremendous amount of data to supplement the income that they're paying out. Whereas like, if you're trying to figure out how much your show is being streamed on Netflix, when they pay you whatever they owe you, like they're not giving you that reporting data.

[00:17:25] Dan Runcie: Right. I was listening to a podcast. They were talking with Steven Soderbergh and he was talking about how, the only way that he knows that he's doing a good job, or if he's making something else, they literally are like, Hey. The movie did well, do you want to make another one? And, okay, if you're Steven Soderbergh that may work, but if you're most of the other people trying to do stuff, there's no security. There's no way to feel like you have any sense of autonomy at all with that. 

[00:17:51] Milana Lewis: Yeah, and honestly, like, the visibility problem isn't one that's just like limited to the artists' experience, right?

[00:17:57] Milana Lewis: Like, the artist is at the center of it. It impacts the songwriters and producers and the publishers. It impacts the manager and their ability to support the artists that they're helping manage the careers of. And more importantly, it impacts the label. I mean, one of the things that I wrote about in the article that I did for billboard was just like, in reality, like I really laughed at myself thinking about being that marketing person or like that finance person at Meek Mill's label, having to figure out like, what do we owe him and how much have we spent on him?

[00:18:25] Milana Lewis: Like, do they know, right? Like, how were they tracking the expenses? ' Cause every label we've talked to and done customer interviews with, they're using Google sheets. Maybe they're using QuickBooks. If they're super organized, they might have some sort of internal system for budgeting that they felt, but not everyone's touching that system, right? So there's just so much inefficiency and it, and to me, that's the part that I'm really excited about solving. Don't get me wrong. Like, I love the artist development side. We have a whole artist relations team that works on the distribution side of the business that cares a lot about the creative element of the work we're doing as well. But to me, all of that still needs really good infrastructure in order for those decisions to be more streamlined. And I think it's because everyone who comes to work into music wants to be as close to the artists or their creative process as possible 'cause that's super attractive.

[00:19:15] Milana Lewis: It takes away from people who actually want to solve the, you know, the infrastructure problem that exists. One of the things we've noticed and is kind of like a funny, but also painful thing we deal with is like, we hire tons of people on the technical side, whether they're engineers or product people.

[00:19:31] Milana Lewis: And I can't tell you how many of them have taken the job at Stem because they love music and want to be building solutions for artists only then to find out a couple months in that they actually don't want to be engineers. They want to be in the artist relation side. 

[00:19:45] Dan Runcie: Wow. 

[00:19:45] Milana Lewis: It happens all the time. And I thought that we were crazy. And then I talked to someone who was at Myspace back in the day, running engineering over there, and they had a similar problem. So people want to work in music because they want to be closer to the creative process of it, which is incredible. And it's so powerful to do that 'cause you're legitimately servicing people who create and shape culture, right? 

[00:20:06] Milana Lewis: But not enough people want to actually build the picks-and-shovels of the business. 

[00:20:10] Dan Runcie: Definitely. 

[00:20:10] Milana Lewis: And we're sure looking for people who want to.

[00:20:12] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And that point too reminds me of some of the thoughts I've heard for people that have looked at a lot of these newer solutions that have come up trying to solve particular problems, or helping people support artists, or just connecting fans to artists more directly.

[00:20:28] Dan Runcie: And some of the critiques I've heard from people in the music industry is that these people, they may understand their business, or they may understand tech or investing, but they don't actually understand music beyond, you know, actually wanting to be in the culture and not like, as you said it, actually, you know, picking up the shovels and doing the work.

[00:20:47] Dan Runcie: And I feel like that has grown even more. I mean, even more since the last time you and I did a podcast where you're just seeing more and more of that, and it's great to see the investive activity. It's great to see everything, but there's still a disconnect between the actual solutions that need to be solved.

[00:21:04] Dan Runcie: That it's not always, you know, the person that finds the artist as the investment opportunity, being able to snap photos with them and post them on Instagram or whatever. 

[00:21:14] Milana Lewis: Yeah, I mean, that's why we have the distribution business, right? Like, we created an internal customer that we can continue to build and evolve for who feels a lot of the same pain points, encounters, the same challenges that other labels and other distributors have.

[00:21:28] Milana Lewis: And so we have them right next to us as we're building and developing. The other thing too, is when we hire people on our product team, you know, we've had a couple of people that come from. The finance world and FinTech, but the majority of our product managers and product leaders and designers come from the music business, right?

[00:21:44] Milana Lewis: Like, one of our senior product managers, this woman, Sarah is incredible. She spent years working at Virgin Capital as a product manager there, but not product manager on the technical side, more on the creative, like, marketing side. So she's done that job working really closely with artists and she understands those painpoints and was a manager herself.

[00:22:03] Milana Lewis: And then actually made a career pivot and decided to get into like technical product development, worked at other tech companies and is now at Stem. So, like, I think one of the things that puts us in a unique competitive advantage really is the fact that we're able to find these like unicorn humans who have the skillsets that like grew up in music, understand the music business intimately well, but have also developed pretty deep technical skills and understand how you built in scale technology offerings. 

[00:22:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's the combo right there. I feel like everyone's after that, but when people have those people, they keep them close. They don't want to let them go. Understandably so, right?

[00:22:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Shifting gears a bit because you did talk about distribution and that, of course, being one of the big parts of your service, I want to talk about growth and just what that process is like for customer acquisition, because I do know that music distribution has become a even more crowded space.

[00:22:54] Dan Runcie: There's a lot of competitors, a lot of people try to say, Hey, this is the place you can, you know, distribute through or rehab what you need to help you. How has it been navigating that? And what are some of the things that have been most effective for you from a acquisition perspective? 

[00:23:09] Milana Lewis: Yeah. So a couple of things, we built the distribution business for an entirely different purpose than many other people do.

[00:23:14] Milana Lewis: So the things that many of the distributors care about, we don't. We don't care about market share. So you will never see us on the peeling of an artist. You will never see us taking claim over their releases. And the way that we think about our distribution service and offering is really intentional about how can we super serve clients.

[00:23:30] Milana Lewis: So again, we don't take anyone. We've been incredibly intentional about the types of clients we want to serve. And it's because we really have a point of view for them. And we think that we can help position them in a way that other people can't. So growing and scaling the distribution business isn't our biggest priority.

[00:23:46] Milana Lewis: Our biggest priority is going and scaling the tools that enable the distribution business to be successful. That doesn't mean that we're not going to continue to expand that team. I mean, a lot of the use of proceeds of this fundraising round is going towards hiring more people to service our clients on that.

[00:24:01] Milana Lewis: And that's a direct response to the demand that we've seen in this space and just the fact that we legitimately have not had enough people to be able to take on the clients that come to us. So we've had to be a lot more intentional and turned down a lot more business than we can take on. So we want to be able to meet the market and, you know, but do it in a way where we're so conscious of our capacity, because the reason we started the distribution business is because we saw this, like, gap in the market where so many other distributors are going after market share and growth, that a lot of artists were just lost in the shuffle.

[00:24:30] Milana Lewis: They were lost in the volume and our distribution offering is a direct response to that. And we're going to keep it boutique in that way, because we think that there needs to be a place for artists to get the attention they deserve at a price that's the right value exchange for the services they're getting.

[00:24:46] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I hear that. I mean, and I think for you all specifically, having the distribution service be either not necessarily a testing ground, but just having a place to be like, Hey, this is serving the other tools and services that we have. I guess there's a few other models like that that we see.

[00:25:03] Dan Runcie: Like, of course I think that UnitedMasters has, you know, their version to some extent where it does serve what they do on the ad side. And I think some of the others do, but I think that the tough thing is, if you're not either building the business in some type of way, you have some other type of thing that is one of the main value adds that you offer.

[00:25:22] Dan Runcie: It's a commodity and just being able to differentiate yourselves in that perspective. And I feel like that's what, at least it's been not necessarily missing, because I do think it's a very real challenge, but it's a long tail. It's a long tail for a reason. But I do think that the companies, like yours, I mean, you obviously made the switch a few years ago to focus more on the select artists that were fitting that profile.

[00:25:45] Dan Runcie: That ultimately I think is where the most successful companies can be. Otherwise you're trying to just jab anyone you can. And I mean, as you know, that could be a very costly game. 

[00:25:55] Milana Lewis: Yeah. And quite frankly, the commodification of distribution really pisses me off because it's not a business that's easily that, like, it shouldn't be a race to the bottom on fees.

[00:26:05] Milana Lewis: I think a lot of people assume that, oh, you can get your music out there. And that's the only role of the distributor, but that's really a delivery company, right? There needs to be that distinction. And people need to realize that, like, there's delivery services and then there's like distributors and distribution services. And distribution services is not just getting your music into the store.

[00:26:21] Milana Lewis: It's about positioning it. It's about being an advocate, thinking strategically about how you structure marketing plans. And there are a ton of services that even our clients expect from their distributor and that cannot be commoditized, but that also makes it challenging because a lot of it is relationship driven.

[00:26:36] Milana Lewis: It's hard to scale because you have to be able to be attentive and give the right focus to the clients that have a point of view. So I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of confusion from sort of the market around, like, the difference between a distributor and a delivery mechanism. And I just want those to be clarified because yes, delivery is commoditized. Distribution should not be.

[00:26:57] Dan Runcie: That's a fair distinction. That's a fair distinction. So when new artists are either considering you or they're considering others, or you do want to bring them on board, what's your pitch? What is the big thing that you and the artist relations team say to bring them on and make them feel like this is a place where their career can level up?

[00:27:16] Milana Lewis: Yeah, I wish I had Kristin on here with me 'cause she does the pitch so much better than I do. And she's the president of that side of the business. So she spends the most time thinking about it and kind of consistently refining the offering there. But the unique thing is is that we don't actually start pitching unless we understand what that client is looking for.

[00:27:32] Milana Lewis: Because again, like we have the ability to shape our value proposition to our clients, depending on what their needs are. So some clients come to us and they say, we just want someone that's going to pick up the phone. We need them. We want you out of our way, and we want money, and we want that money as cheap as possible, and that's it. And it's like, great. We're going to give you the tools so you can handle it yourself. You'll have a dedicated account manager that will get on the phone with you whenever you need them to, you can text them. You don't have, like, a support line you call, you have that human being's phone number. And they're very responsive because they're not servicing hundreds of artists at a time.

[00:28:04] Milana Lewis: And we're going to show you the options that we can give you as an advance, but you're going to control the terms. So if you want the cheaper fee, take less money up front and take in tranches. You can take the same exact of my money, but instead of withdrawing, call it a million dollars at once, take it out in tranches of a hundred thousand, you need to spend a million dollars next week, right?

[00:28:21] Milana Lewis: Like if you're not, don't do that. And we're going to pay you every single month and we're going to pay all the people you want us to pay on your behalf so that you can stay focused on the things you want to focus on, right? That sort of like the tried and true, like keep things, easy pitch. Those are the most exciting clients to work with, but there's enough labels that feel that way.

[00:28:39] Milana Lewis: And every so often they maybe want to get advice and strategy from us and that's great. But for most clients, they come to us because they want a real thought partner, right? I think one of the reasons why a lot more artists are not independent, quite frankly, is because them and their management team don't want to take on all the work on their own, right? I think people have, like, the criticism of, like, they always want someone else to blame. Like, they want to be able to blame the label. That is a direct statement and quote that our mutual friend says a lot. But you know, what they really want is someone that's going to understand the narrative of the artist and the positioning and advocate on their behalf to the DSPs.

[00:29:15] Milana Lewis: And our pitch for them is that we're not delivering, again, hundreds of songs a week or a month or pitches for that reason. When we deliver something, the DSPs pay attention to it because we're so intentional and curated. So your pitch is going to stand out. It's going to be delivered. People are going to hear it. We can't guarantee you're going to get placement, but we're going to go out of our way to make sure that the positioning is there for your client.

[00:29:35] Milana Lewis: So we've done a lot of unique things, too, with our clients to build those relationships with the editors. Everything from sending curated boxes to renting suites, suites at big sports games and inviting people out to build that relationship personally with the artists. Like, we try to be a lot more hands-on and experiential than I think many other distributors are with their clients.

[00:29:57] Milana Lewis: So we take that, like, indie label approach to supporting the artist, but we don't overpromise and say, Hey, we have a big radio team. Hey, we have a whole in-house digital marketing team. Like, all of that stuff, we're very clear that we're going to outsource that, but you're going to be in control of how that money is being spent and you're going to be in control of picking the right partners.

[00:30:15] Milana Lewis: So we're really more dot connectors and strategists, and we're just upfront about what we do, what we don't do. And I think a lot of people find that refreshing and that builds trust and people like that. 

[00:30:25] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I know a lot of this has been focused more on the streaming side because that is where so many of these playlists pitching and that type of conversation happens.

[00:30:34] Dan Runcie: But do you get a lot of interests from artists who are focused on what support you may be able to provide if you all do on vinyl or some of the other non-streaming music revenues? Just because of how much... 

[00:30:47] Milana Lewis: No, we have vendors that we can partner with for vinyl distribution and physical. It's not a core competency of ours, and it's not one that we want to handle either.

[00:30:55] Milana Lewis: So we're honest, we're just like, we don't do that, but here's why people who do, and we've worked with them, we've had great experiences and we'll help you pick the right one because, if you're only looking to print this number of units, they're probably not the best partner this person is. If you're in this, like, there's so many considerations. We have a whole strategy team that we've built out where this is their full-time job is getting to know the landscape of all of these service providers and vendors, vetting them out, understanding what they're good at, so that when clients come to us, we can make the right recommendations. 

[00:31:21] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And does the same thing exist as well for artists that may be reaching out to you, whether they want NFTs or they want to do something Web 3.0 related?

[00:31:29] Milana Lewis: Everything. Yeah. So we have a whole digital strategy team as well, where their job is getting to know all of the digital platforms and tools and new companies emerging that if anyone wants to partner with Snapchat in an interesting way or Peloton or Royal or Mint Songs, like whoever that could be, whether it's even like Discord and other platforms, like they're an expert and they can talk, they can be a good conduit but also just educate our clients on that as well.

[00:31:55] Dan Runcie: Right. And I feel like a lot of their jobs who is likely just sifting through the noise and what actually is worthwhile and what isn't. How do you feel about that?

[00:32:03] Milana Lewis: That was my job. I mean, that was my job at UTA, right? My job was getting to know every single technology company that could possibly partner with any of the agency's clients. Started with me as a person that I grew into a team of like, I don't know, like 30 or 40 people today that do that. There's a lot of land to cover there. 

[00:32:20] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's, every new day there's something else. And I do think that in general, it makes, at least from my perspective, as you know, more from the strategy perspective, like, having the focus is there. And I know everyone is trying to incorporate something into their web, something in Web 3.0, especially if they're trying to, like, raise money and stuff.

[00:32:37] Dan Runcie: But I feel like after a while, like that stuff gets old, not old in a way that obviously that is the future, but old into like, okay, you can't just put lipstick on a pig, you actually needed to have something. So yeah. 

[00:32:49] Milana Lewis: Yeah. I mean, for us, the number one question we ask is why. Why, like, why do you want to do this? Because that'll determine, it's like, if you don't know why and you want to do something because you want to jump on it, you want to understand it. Then we realize that you're still in discovery mode, right? You're still trying to figure out why you want to do it so we can change the way that we approach it with you and take you more on an educational journey versus taking that as directive.

[00:33:10] Milana Lewis: And I think it just like being really, again, like, intentional with your client. And you can't do that across thousands and thousands of them, you have to be selective because that's the level of servicing that those people require. 

[00:33:23] Dan Runcie: How often do you feel like you get a good answer when you ask why? 

[00:33:26] Milana Lewis: You know, it's a really great question, is that I'm not present in a lot of those conversations. So I'd love to have someone else answer that for you. 

[00:33:33] Dan Runcie: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I got to imagine that at the level of artists you're talking to anyway, there likely is some of that built in to begin with. But every artist is in discovery mode to some extent, right? So I get that. Yeah. But yeah, this was good.

[00:33:47] Dan Runcie: It was great to recap and just hear how things are going and get a pretty good idea of where things are heading in the future. But what are some upcoming milestones or announcements? What are some things that you can share that we should keep our eyes out for? 

[00:34:01] Milana Lewis: Oh, that's a good question. When is this podcast gonna be posted, we think?

[00:34:05] Dan Runcie: End of June.

[00:34:06] Milana Lewis: Cool. Okay. So you'll be hearing about some of the first few labels we're partnering with to power their dashboards and payouts because we're actively developing that right now, quietly with a couple of big players. So we're excited to announce that. Some are independent. Some are part of the major label ecosystem.

[00:34:23] Milana Lewis: So pretty excited to get people's reactions on that. The advance is business. The scale product is growing pretty tremendously. So we're going to make some exciting announcements about how we're positioning that moving forward. And then just continuing to keep our heads down and building an expanded team.

[00:34:40] Milana Lewis: There's a lot of new, exciting people that have joined us that we haven't talked about yet, but we will soon. 

[00:34:44] Dan Runcie: Nice, good stuff. Good stuff. Well, Milana, thanks for coming on. This was great. 

[00:34:49] Milana Lewis: Thanks for having me. 

[00:34:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah, definitely. And for the people following. They'll know to find you and keep up with everything, but keep up the great work. It's great having you on. 

[00:34:57] Milana Lewis: Thanks for having me again. And thanks all for listening who made it this far. 

[00:35:01] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group. Chat, posted in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word.

[00:35:14] Dan Runcie: continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use apple podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating. And we've reviewed tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you. In advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2136 no Bay Area Hip-Hop with Rexx Life Raj https://www.trapital.com/podcast Bay area artist Rexx Life Raj (real name Faraji Omar Wrightz) is in album mode with “Blue Hour” set to drop soon. The new album is his most personal yet. It was largely recorded after his mother passed away and before his father did too — which was within a three-month span of each other during 2021. The personal grief of both losses influenced the sounds of the new music.  While recording this music was one way Raj coped with his grief, he also wants the album to do the same for others going through similar pains in their own lives. The deeper purpose behind Blue Hour is to create a safe space to talk about grief, especially amongst black men, where the topic of mental health can fly under the radar.  Raj wants Blue Hour to honor his parents, who instilled in him an entrepreneurial spirit from an early age. The album will be his fifth — all released independently. A tour will follow later this year too. For a closer look at Raj’s process behind his art, listen to our full interview. Here’s everything we covered: [3:03] Bay Area’s Influence On Raj’s Music [4:51] Rexx’s Entrepreneurship Spirit Stems From Parents [7:07] Did Rex Ever Consider Taking A Record Label Deal? [8:13] The TikTok Effect On Artists (Pros & Cons) [11:25] Content Strategy For Raj’s Newest Album  [14:25] Why Grief Is Such A Big Theme In Rex’s Music [17:40] How Raj Is Coping With The Loss Of His Parents [24:10] Personal Goals For The Upcoming Album [25:53] Post-Album Tour Plans [30:40] How Tapped In Is Raj To Local Tech Scene? [32:42] E-40’s Entrepreneurship Skills [36:37] What Is Raj Most Excited About? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Rexx Life Raj, @rexxliferaj   This episode was brought to you by Highlight. Build the community of your dreams on the blockchain. The new company is backed by leading investors like Haun Ventures, Thirty Five Ventures (“35V”), and more. Learn more at highlight.xyz     Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Rexx Life Raj: When it comes to numbers, like, you can buy followers, you can buy comments, you can buy likes, but a lot of people will tune in for the spectacle, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's a lot of followers who are just like there for the show. Like, you're really good on the internet so we just want to watch you on the internet. [00:00:15] Rexx Life Raj: But it never translates to anything real. It's like, that's why looking at engagement is such a big thing. Like, I'll look into followers, but then I'll look at how many comments, like, I'll be looking at that kind of shit. Like, how many comments you got? Like, how many people are really tapped in? What's the engagement like on all platforms? 'Cause that's how you can really tell [00:00:39] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:59] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Rexx Life Raj. He's a Bay Area artist known for the Father Figure trilogy and his upcoming album, The Blue Hour. In this episode, Raj and I talked a lot about the inspiration for this album and what brought him up to this point? Raj, unfortunately, lost both of his parents in the past year so one of the big focuses for this album was grief. [00:01:21] Dan Runcie: What are the things that Raj had done to process that, him being able to navigate that and some of the coping things that he had done over the year and how that prepared him to be in the mode to create this album. So we talked about the process for that. And we also talked about some of the things he's done to market and push the album. [00:01:38] Dan Runcie: He has a blog, he has a trailer, and being able to truly document the process. So we talk about some of that balance that a lot of artists have between the marketing they need to do in the actual product that they need to put out and share with their fans. We talked about that and we also talked about how that relates to TikTok. [00:01:57] Dan Runcie: TikTok has been one of the growing debates with a lot of artists in terms of how they put their content out there and record labels wanting to push them to do things, but Raj is in a different position. He isn't signed to a record label. He is independent. He still does distribution through EMPIRE. So we talked about that decision as well and how he looks at some of the broader trends, whether it's TikTok or, thinking more broadly, he does have a tour coming up as well to promote the album. [00:02:24] Dan Runcie: So we talked a little bit about what it's like doing festivals versus doing tours yourself. And this was a really good episode. I think a lot of the independent artists will appreciate this. A lot of the independent creators will appreciate this as well because a lot of you are taking a more bootstrapped approach. [00:02:42] Dan Runcie: You know, it's going to be a longer game, but a lot of the decisions you make need to line up with this strategy and Raj to someone that's doing it on a successful level. So I hope you enjoy this chat. Here's my conversation with Rex life, Raj. All right, today we got the one and only Bay Area native Rexx Life Raj here. How are you doing, man?  [00:03:00] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah. I can't complain. How are you doing? [00:03:03] Dan Runcie: I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited for this. And it's good to talk to the artists that are from here, and especially you because you have always had the Bay Area such a clear and prominent focus in your music and your music videos. And I really feel like it's a character in your art in a lot of ways. Can you talk a little bit about the influence Bay Area has and how it shapes what you put out?  [00:03:25] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, man. I think that the Bay Area is just like such an influential place and you see it in terms of just the way, like our lingo spreads, that the sound of the music spreads, you know, the dancing that comes from here, everything is so like cultural and impactful that I feel like if you're from here, it just comes out of you without even trying. Because you know, people always tell me, [00:03:45] Rexx Life Raj: like, they get that from me and I don't even be trying. It's just like who I am. So I think the Bay Area is tight 'cause it's like a blend of so many different people, but at the cooler of the culture, everybody HiFi for real, you know what I'm saying? And that's really what it is, you know. So, yeah, I love the Bay Area, man.  [00:04:01] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's like not everyone needs to do HiFi straight up music, but I feel like you kind of find your own spin on that, right? Like, you can see the origins, but you took it in your own direction.  [00:04:10] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, it was like, I think that's what's dope about art is that like, to me, art is people living in this life and taking these experiences and it goes through your filter and it comes out how it comes out. You know what I'm saying? So I took an artist of life around me and this is how it comes out. But I think you could still feel like the Bay Area in it just 'cause, you know, this is who I am and where I'm from.  [00:04:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. And I think, too, looking at your background, I know that your father was a big influence. Not just in your music, but also how you approach your career as someone that owned businesses and I feel like I see a similar thread with how you've went about the business side of music, especially as an independent artist. [00:04:51] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, for sure. Like, like you said, my dad was an entrepreneur since I was born. I think he had, like, he worked at Coca-Cola up until I think a couple of years before I was born. And then after that, it was pure, like, entrepreneurship. He got tired of working for people. He wanted to set his own schedule and kind of just be in control of his own destiny. [00:05:09] Rexx Life Raj: So that's all, I really know, like my mom worked at Cal up until I was like three or four, but then she started fully working with my dad in the business. So it was kind of like where I come from. I don't even really know what it feels like to work a job. Like, I worked for a summer job while I was in college, but everything I know is kind of like building it from the ground up, building it from scratch and, you know, nurturing it and watching it grow. [00:05:32] Rexx Life Raj: And it's kind of what I do in every avenue in like in music, in the brands I have outside of music and just kind of all I know.  [00:05:38] Dan Runcie: Right. And I know with that path that takes a lot of patience and likely a lot more patience than you're seeing from some of your peers that may be doing other things, whether it's with major labels or others. [00:05:48] Dan Runcie: And I can speak to that too, from running a bootstrap business and just seeing how it is with others that are going a different path. But how has that been from your perspective? Just balancing obviously the patience, but knowing the long-term outcome that's on the other side. [00:06:04] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, man. I think it's just something that's kind of ingrained in me from, you know, seeing my parents 'cause they had that business for like 30 years and with was so many ebbs and flows in the business, but just knowing, like, it's something sustainable that's going to carry you for the rest of your life. It puts a different perspective on it. And also it's like, I come from a football background and I was the o lineman. [00:06:26] Rexx Life Raj: I'm used to not getting, like, no shine and no glory and just putting in the work, you know what I'm saying? It's kind of what I come from. So I feel like it's like that with music and for me, and you could probably relate when you doing something like this, it don't feel like work. You know, you're just having fun. [00:06:41] Rexx Life Raj: So I'm not looking at it like, oh, this is hard. This is tedious. It's like, nah, you're, you're building something. It's a blessing, bro. I get to build something from scratch that people resonate with, you know what I'm saying? And it's like, people are finding value and meaning in it. So it becomes like, even more purposeful for me. So I was just like, bro, I'm blessed, bro. I can't complain about too much.  [00:07:00] Dan Runcie: Was there ever a point that you did consider doing a more traditional record label deal?  [00:07:07] Rexx Life Raj: Not really. I mean, we, I want to say a few years ago we took a few meetings with some bigger record labels, but I think my situation with EMPIRE, for me personally, is just, you know, it's ideal, you know? 'Cause I can move out when I want to move. I can kind of do what I want to do. There's no restrictions on me. You know, you hear stories about the majors. You're on a schedule, or you're shelved, or you can put out something. People have been waiting for, like, a year to put out music and, you know, it's such a big system that people get lost in it, you know what I'm saying? You're just banking on having somebody in a building that's rocking with you and you hear stories about those people leaving and now you just kind of, you know, up in the air. So it's like, you hear a lot of weird stories, but for me, the situation I'm in is just, it's solid. I can't, I can't speak on what happens down the road or if it makes sense, maybe it don't makes sense then, but for right now, it's like, what I have is pretty tight. [00:08:00] Dan Runcie: I hear you on the weird stories. The one I keep hearing right now is people talking about the labels, trying to make them put out TikToks, right? Label wants them to put out a TikTok before they released the track, before they released the album. What do you think about that?  [00:08:13] Rexx Life Raj: It's interesting, but I think about that a lot. It really makes me sad, you know what I'm saying? Like, when I really think about, like, but it makes me sad cause it's, like, if you're an artist and you don't want to do that, and that's kind of, like, 'cause some people have that persona and personality where it plays into that, you know, they're good at the internet. [00:08:30] Rexx Life Raj: Some artists are really good at the internet, but I feel bad for the artists who just want to make music. And now they feel like they have to do Tiktok and be less organic and it don't feel right. Like, to me, that's not tight, but at the same time, it's a platform that's enabling so many up-and-coming creators because the algorithm over there is crazy. [00:08:49] Rexx Life Raj: Like, I remember when I first got on TikTok, I had, like, 50, 70 followers who just followed me over to TikTok, but I will post things and they will go, like, fake viral, like 30,000 views, 40,000 when I only have 50 followers. So I'm like, it's a game that you have to play. Like, you can go over there and bullshit and fake go viral by accident, you know what I'm saying? But it's kinda like, it's kind of contingent upon the artists, but I see, you know, it needs encouragement on both sides.,  [00:09:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think we're also still just so early that we're likely going to see more types of content that can be put out when someone puts out a TikTok, right? Because I feel like when it started, it was people doing these dances that are just in this like vertical screen. [00:09:32] Dan Runcie: But, all right. They've expanded the timeframe. Like, it doesn't have to look like that. It reminds me of, like, when MTV first came out, you started to hear a little bit of that, right? Everyone thought it was just going to make people to these, like, phonies that just did these, like, Milli Vanilli dances and stuff like that, but then it, then it evolved. So I feel like that could still happen, right? Just 'cause like you said, the reach is so massive. [00:09:55] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah. No, I think it's happening right now because I feel like from what I've learned in my experience is that fans, like, people who are fans of you are, who are becoming fans of you actually want to know you. And I feel like, you know, with TikTok, it's a place where you could be, you could be dancing and viral and all that, but you can really be personal and show people behind the scenes, like, I look like a LaRussell out of Vallejo. And he's really good at, like, at the internet period, but like, he's not really TikToking like playing a game, he's just getting on there and rapping, you know what I'm saying? [00:10:28] Rexx Life Raj: And people are receptive to that 'cause there's a whole demographic who just want to hear people rap. So I think it's really about finding like a little niche, something that's comfortable for you, and understanding that, like, you're not making content for everybody in the world. You're making content for your people and finding your people. And like I said, knowing what's comfortable with you and you can win for sure.  [00:10:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I agree with that, and that's a good example of that, right? Like, I was just reading an article, I was talking about, yeah, the platform's maturing and it's going to be more niches and the more niches, yeah, the less people that are going to want to see these standard TikTok dances, more people are going to want to see bars. [00:11:04] Dan Runcie: They're going to want to see people wrap. So that's a good point there. Shifting gears though, I want to talk a little bit more about your album, The Blue Hour and what you have coming up. You have the trailer for it. You got the vlog. I really like how you've built up and had the rollout for it. Can you talk to me about the strategy or the plan for how you want it to execute that all? [00:11:25] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, for me at this point, bro, cause I just understand like, everything is about content and it kind of goes back to what we were talking about with TikTok. Content is king, you know what I'm saying? And for me it's just, I want it to have as much content as possible. So I had the cameraman, you know, my boy filming all these sessions. And then, anytime I'll have a show, I have somebody film it or anytime I have ideas, it's, like, let's try to do this idea, you know what I'm saying? 'Cause the more content you have the better. And so it's just literally when I went into it, it's just like, bro, follow me with the camera and just get everything. [00:11:59] Rexx Life Raj: Then it'll be shit in here that we could just slowly roll out and turn into a vlog. And then turn it into a documentary, like I'm actually shooting a real documentary right now that we're starting to drop trailers for, but it's just like, anytime there's a camera, turn it on, you know? 'Cause you could choose whether to put it on or put it out, you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's not like you have to put it out, but people want to see the process, like they want to hear the music, of course, but people want to see the process. They want to see how you create. They want to see the thinking behind it. They want to see who you're collaborating with. [00:12:29] Rexx Life Raj: It just makes that connection to your fans I think that much stronger. So it's like when me, I'm just trying to involve them in as much of the process and my thinking as possible to really, you know, make them connect as much as possible.  [00:12:41] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Do you ever feel any tension with that approach? Because I know I've heard from other artists where they feel like when the cameras are out, they need to do this stuff. It makes them feel like they're more of a marketer than they are an artist. And obviously, it's a combination of both. But how was that for you? Especially as, you know, you want to be in album mode, you know, you obviously have a concept that you want to be able to do purely from an artistic person. [00:13:04] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, I don't really have that problem, right? And it might be, 'cause I did have the camera on me at this point for a while. You know what I'm saying? Like, I've always had people following me with cameras, but also it's like, I think, you know, if you have a good videographer, they're not all in your face with the camera, like they might ask you questions every now and then. [00:13:20] Rexx Life Raj: But the people I work with, they're planning the cut. You know what I'm saying? It's like, they're almost not even in the room. To me, that's the best kind of cameraman. It's just like behind the speaker or you're not even paying attention to him. And he's kind of shooting you while you were in the booth 'cause it could be like a distraction. I think as soon as the camera comes on and you're very conscious of it, it changes everybody. Like, this conversation with us will be different if we weren't on camera, it'd probably be more candid. But since we know people are watching, like you kind of changed. [00:13:47] Rexx Life Raj: So like, I think it's really just, like, having a good cameraman is just like, they're not really in the room. And then maybe after, you know, luckily I've had the camera videographers who are like, afterwards, they'll contextualize it. Like, they'll ask me a question or, like, let's elaborate on this afterwards. But during the process, it's really kind of like playing the clip and just recording. [00:14:07] Dan Runcie: Right, that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. And I think for you as well, thinking about this album, specifically, a lot of the focus you're talking about grief, and you want to be able to not just process your own, but helping other people with it. Why was that an important focus for you with this album? [00:14:25] Rexx Life Raj: For me, because I think my music is very much grounded in reality, in my real life. And I feel like for me, like this past year, year and a half was the most insane, impactful year I've personally ever had in my life. And I feel like there's no way that it wouldn't come out of me, you know what I'm saying? It's just, so much happened and there was so much emotion and everything built up in me and it came out in the music. And for me, it was almost like, you know, you went through all this shit and you felt all these feelings. There has to be a way that you can transmute this into something that can help people going through the same thing. [00:15:04] Rexx Life Raj: And for me, music has always been like my favorite songs aren't really the turn-up songs. They're the songs that cut all the way, you know, I'm going through some shit or I need to cry or I'm in my feelings or something. And it's like knowing that music has that capacity and knowing that it could be that like music has helped me in times where I was going through whatever I was going through and knowing that I have the potential to do that. [00:15:27] Rexx Life Raj: To me, it feels only right to put that into my music, because like I said, I've done songs where like Moxie Jova, Shit N' Floss where people turn up and it's crazy when I perform it. But then I do songs like Time where it hits people on almost like a spiritual level, not even almost, it is a spiritual level in that feeling. [00:15:46] Rexx Life Raj: That's how I know this is my purpose 'cause I'm so attached to that feeling that people get where they're just like turning up and having fun. So it's like, I want it to create a space for people to be able to talk about grief, to be able to talk about it, especially for black men, because the experience is so much, but how we talk about it, like, with the homies, to me, it's kind of like crazy. Either we talk about it, very surface level, or we don't talk about it. And we hold these feelings in and we harbor it. And that's why for me, like, going back to everything outside of the music, the music is one thing, but my rollout has been to be focused on like, letting people know, like, yo it's okay to express these feelings if necessary, to talk about these things, you know what I'm saying? So that's kind of been my whole thing with this, with this album. [00:16:31] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Yeah, I feel like this is generally gotten better over time where we are seeing more artists like yourself and others sharing their thoughts and being vulnerable. And I think we've seen it just more broadly in culture where people are becoming much more comfortable. And there is less of a stigma, especially with black men around checking out for your own mental health, being able to get awareness with things. But I still feel like there's plenty of room to grow with that. So you, of course, you know, not just using yourself as an example, but being able to communicate that through music is going to help a lot of people. I know you mentioned that the past year and a half has been tough and I'm sure that a lot of people could likely relate to that for their own respective reasons. So there's a timeliness here as well. And there are so many things happening that I feel like we've almost become immune to whether it's things happening our own life or things happening in society where no, it's helpful to pause because that doesn't happen as often as it should. And things just keep going and going.  [00:17:40] Rexx Life Raj: Literally, man. I mean, for me too, it's like for people who don't know, just to kind of like give you a synopsis of what's going on. I lost both of my parents last year. I lost my mom in May, and then my dad in August and the majority of the album wasn't really right before my dad passed. So it is sort of three months right after my mom passed. And it's crazy because I remember something that she said to me that stuck with me, it's like, when she got diagnosed with cancer, we had a conversation and one of the things she said was no matter what happens to me, I know you'll, you'll do something good, like whether it be music or whether it be, you know, just you talking about it or whatever. She's like, I know something good comes from this. And I feel like one of the biggest things for me when it comes to grief is finding ways to honor the people you lost, right? So for me, it's like, the album honors her. Me talking about, you know, when I'm going through honors her and that's one of the biggest things for me, that's why I'm so open about it because it's like, yo, it's one thing to go to the cemetery or, you know, wherever your place is where you honor the people you lose. [00:18:50] Rexx Life Raj: But to me, like, I want to take action in some way to honor my mom, you know what I'm saying? So that's kind of what all there is to me.  [00:18:57] Dan Runcie: I mean, I could only imagine how you felt. It's so sad just losing both of them in such a short amount of time and obviously, this album has been a point of catharsis for you. [00:19:08] Dan Runcie: I'm sure. Just the process. And like you mentioned a few of the things you've done as well, but what are some of the other ways that you've been able to the best that you can cope and manage your own stress and grief with the losses and any and everything else in your life.  [00:19:22] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, man, music has really been a main thing cause it was really therapeutic for me, but I think being around friends and family, for me, and being able to talk about these things and cry when I need to in front of the homies and just get things out is important. [00:19:35] Rexx Life Raj: I try to stay on top of like meditating. Like, I try to meditate two or three times a week, you know, I pray a lot, you know, anything that I could get these feelings out of me. One of the biggest things for me, it sounds funny, but it's the Peleton, you know what I'm saying? For me personally, when I'm going through anything, working out is such a stress reliever, you know what I'm saying? [00:19:55] Rexx Life Raj: So I had got a Peloton right when my mom got sick and it was something that like any time I built up extra energy or anxiety in my body, I'll just go hop on the Peleton. And outside of me losing a little bit of weight, it just helped me mentally, you know, just working out. I'm really thankful for the Peloton, shout out to all the instructors and stuff on there. [00:20:15] Rexx Life Raj: That's really tight, but yeah, just find a way to get it out of me. Like, I do all the little stuff. Like I journal a lot, you know what I'm saying? Anything that could get my thoughts out and just kind of figure out what's going on. 'Cause I feel like people have these things in their head, but when you write it down and you can reread it and really see what's going on in your mind, you can have better understanding of what you're going through. [00:20:34] Rexx Life Raj: So I did this thing called morning pages, which at one point I was waking up every morning. So what you do is you wake up every morning and you just journal for like two or three pages, whatever comes to your mind, you know what I'm saying? Like, no matter what it could be, because when you first wake up, it would be shit like I'm tired. [00:20:49] Rexx Life Raj: And I really don't feel like writing this. I didn't get a good night's sleep, but the more you write, the more real feelings and thoughts come out. And what happens is if you do it for a long enough period of time, you start to see consistencies and you're thinking in your feelings, right? So you might, for somebody who might be, you know, in a relationship, they keep having these problems in their relationship, and they noticed that they write about it every day, you know, or that you're having problems with your dad or your mom or something that keeps coming up. And what it allows you to do is see it like, yo, this thing keeps happening and then you have the choice to take action, because if it keeps happening and you don't take action, nothing's going to change. [00:21:27] Rexx Life Raj: But by you writing it every day, like you've seen it seven days, seven days, it forces you to take action and you can clearly see what's going on in your life. So I really believe in that, I read that in a book called The Artist's Way. I highly recommend like that for any artists or anybody just in the creative realm for sure. [00:21:44] Dan Runcie: That makes a lot of sense. And I've heard similar with people doing voice memos as well. You know, just being able to have that steady, consistent thing that you're putting out there because, yeah, over time it is going to be a reflection of where things are and just that habit of it's one thing to journal, but it's actually having a common practice with it. [00:22:03] Dan Runcie: I'm sure that's been huge. And I could imagine that even some of that has been a helpful reflection for you as you were putting this album together as well.  [00:22:11] Rexx Life Raj: For sure. It's crazy 'cause when I was going through, you know, basically being a caregiver for my parents, cause I was taking care of both of them. I didn't really have time to do music because I was so consumed and taking my mom to chemo or radiation. [00:22:26] Rexx Life Raj: And then my dad, he was already sick. So I'll have to take him to dialysis and the Kaiser and I was, you know, cooking the meals and staying at the house, make sure everything is right. So I really was so overwhelmed with life that I didn't even have the capacity to do music, but what I always did was I have a, in my notes tab, I have a note just called life notes. [00:22:48] Rexx Life Raj: So anytime something would happen, like, I'll have feelings, a lot of different feelings and emotions. I would just jot it down in the notes. So in my phone, I literally had, bro, just so many life notes because there's music in everything that songs and the conversations you have with people are songs. Like, these feelings that you feel, these experiences that you have can now be turned into music. [00:23:10] Rexx Life Raj: So even when I couldn't necessarily make music, I was just taking notes. So when it became, like, after my mom passed and I started going back to the studio. Like, I had just so much to draw from, you know what I'm saying? So it's not like I had to sit and even think about now, what am I going to write about? What am I going to do? [00:23:29] Rexx Life Raj: It's all in the notes. So it's like the album was written before it was written and it had to piece it together.  [00:23:34] Dan Runcie: Right. That makes sense, right? It's like documenting the process, like, like anything. And I do think that just being able to have that likely helped the product of it, too. So, and I know that that was coming out soon. You're definitely excited about where things are heading. [00:23:49] Dan Runcie: Do you have any particular milestones or goals that you have that you're trying to hit with this album? I know that you're not signed to a major record label, so some of those same types of things may not exist, but a lot of it may be a bit more on the personal side for what you have. Is there anything that you have that you're shooting for, that you have as a particular milestone? [00:24:10] Rexx Life Raj: Not necessarily numbers-wise 'cause I feel like as soon as I do that, I can set myself up to not be happy if I don't hit those things. So I don't really be tripping off numbers. Like my thing, when it comes to numbers is as long as we're on the up and it's better than what we've been doing, then we're doing something right. [00:24:26] Rexx Life Raj: But my whole goal and intention with this album was to help people who are going through what I was going through. Like, that's all I was thinking about. And I see it, you know, in the songs that I've released, my DMs be crazy with people who are either, you know, it's a lot of people in my DMs whose parents are ill right now. [00:24:44] Rexx Life Raj: So they resonate with the music. It's even more people in my DMs who are going through grief. And the music is helping them process in any way. So to me, that's the win for me, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's the win is the music helping people navigate through life and shit. The numbers are just numbers and the numbers be fake a lot of times, like, you know, so I don't really be concerned about the numbers, you know what I'm saying? [00:25:05] Rexx Life Raj: But for me, it's just being intentional in what I put into the music and just hoping that it resonates with people.  [00:25:11] Dan Runcie: And it sounds like it already is, like you said, if you're having the folks of the DMs hitting you up and responding to it, that's great. And I got to imagine that being able to potentially see that impact in person at some point would likely be an ideal thing that I'm sure people would connect with as well. Are there plans to tour, do live shows after the album's released?  [00:25:33] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, we already got the tour locked in toward the end of the year. I've got a few festivals, actually have a festival on Sunday. I just did one in Sacramento. So we got a lot of little festivals and shows coming up but the actual tour is set for the end of the year so I'm super excited. [00:25:49] Dan Runcie: Nice. Do you prefer festival performances or do you prefer your own tour stops?  [00:25:53] Rexx Life Raj: I prefer my own tour, you know what I'm saying? 'Cause what a festival, especially for artists at my level, you never really know how many people are there for you and it's tight because it's a bigger crowd so you can win new fans and festival experiences are always super fun, but like you alluded to earlier, just the connection that I've made with the people that I know I've made that connection with is different. [00:26:17] Rexx Life Raj: You know what I'm saying? It's, it's spiritual. That's the only word I can have for it, bro. 'Cause I've had shows where, you know, I'll perform a song and people cry, you know what I'm saying? It's like they came for that song, you know what I'm saying? That came out of my brain and for whatever reason, it resonated with them. [00:26:33] Rexx Life Raj: To me, that's just, you know, and to have people sing songs in unison. And it's just like a different type of connection when it's your own show, but festivals are tied to them. And I love festivals.  [00:26:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like, especially for independent artists, a mix in general is what people do thrive in. And I feel like that generally makes sense, but especially for independent artists, your career is already built on the long game and touring is a much longer game than a lot of festivals, right? Festivals, their upfront cash should be great. It could be bigger than what you may get from an initial stop, but like you said, you don't know if they're necessarily there for you, but you could be reaching out to new fans versus at a tour, even if the total audience may not be what it may be in that festival crowd, all those people are there to see you and you build on that and you're going there with the next album. And the one after that, like, that's where that long game is that lines up with that independent mentality.  [00:27:29] Rexx Life Raj: Literally, man, and I'm happy you said that 'cause I be trying to preach that to, you know, any up and coming artist that asked me for advice. It's like, that's what I'm focused on. You know, the touring. That's what I look at. Like, even when, you know, everybody has a moment and niggas be laid on the internet and shit look cool. My first thought is like, can I sell tickets? [00:27:48] Rexx Life Raj: Are they selling merch? 'Cause in real life, that's, what's going to sustain you. Like, have you built maybe another business or brand outside of yourself? Because the internet shit is cool, but real life is what's going, what gets you paid in the long term. So, yeah, I'm happy you said that.  [00:28:05] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. I had this piece that had gotten some traction recently that was a breakdown on why your followers are not your fans and the followers, exactly, it's the internet shit that you're talking about, right? It just doesn't always line up. And we both know people that have millions, tens of millions of followers, but they can't sell when they actually go to show things and makes you question, okay, were all those true numbers, legit stream numbers and all those things? And you can't fake actually, to have actual bodies there, like watching you perform a concert.  [00:28:38] Rexx Life Raj: It's the only thing you can't fake, man. That's what I'm saying. Like, the internet is really, but at the same time, like if you play the internet correctly, you can make money off the internet as well. [00:28:47] Rexx Life Raj: Like, you know, don't get it twisted, like there's money to be made on the internet. But as far as sustainability, like, I've only seen it this way, you know what I'm saying? And like you said, everything can be manipulated. And even when it comes to numbers, like you can buy followers, you can buy comments, you can buy likes, but a lot of people will tune in for the spectacle, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's a lot of followers who are just like there for the show. Like, you're really good on the internet so we just want to watch you on the internet. But it never translates to anything real. It's like, that's why looking at engagement is such a big thing. Like, I'll look at the followers but then I'll look at how many comments, like I would be looking at that kind of shit. Like, how many comments he got? Like, how many people are really tapped in? What's the engagement like on all platforms? [00:29:30] Rexx Life Raj: 'Cause that's how you can really tell. 'Cause it's been harder to, like, for instance, on Instagram, I think I got like 80,000 followers, right? But there's been artists who I've seen that had like 20,000 followers, 30,000 followers, even less, their engagement is way higher and they're selling way more tickets than me. [00:29:47] Rexx Life Raj: And I'm like, damn, dude. Like, that's it. Cause you damn near made all your followers believe to the point where we following you not only on here, but we following you in real life to the stage, you know? And that's crazy to me. So yes, it's an interesting game for sure.  [00:30:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good example. I mean, you're seeing it that way because you see it the other way, too, people that, you know, you got tens of millions of followers and then less than a thousand people, like the last photo, what, like, no.  [00:30:18] Rexx Life Raj: Something's not clicking. Something's ain't right. But, yeah, for sure. [00:30:22] Dan Runcie: So you're the Bay Area, and of course we know there's a lot of tech investments happening out here. And I know that you are interested in things outside of directly making music as well. What does that side of things look like for you? Have you got involved in the investing side, looking at different startups and companies? [00:30:40] Rexx Life Raj: I'm kind of tapping in 'cause I have friends who are really in that world. Like my girlfriend works for Facebook, so she's fully in it. One of my best friends, he works for Google, so he's fully in it. And then one of my good friends who I went to college with, Jason Robinson, he has a VR/AR software, it's called Playbook Five. [00:31:00] Rexx Life Raj: And so he actually just did a pitch in Menlo park, Denver last weekend, pitching to investors. It's lit, it's really tight. Like, you put on the Oculus or whatever, and it's for kids to learn, like, kids in high school and middle school who are trying to play any sport in college. It teaches you all these schemes and game plans and everything you can learn through a software, but what's he trying to do is make it accredited. So say, like, they're trying to go to Cal to play football and Cal runs a three, four scheme on defense for the players who aren't like four or five stars who are getting directly looked at by the school. They can look at Playbook Five and be like, oh, let's check this kid out. [00:31:37] Rexx Life Raj: He's fully accredited in our scheme. So they bring him in and he fully knows what's going on. And so like this, seeing the homies do stuff like that, you're automatically drawn into it because that shit is the future, you know what I'm saying? And then he's telling me like, like I said, how he's pitching and he's looking for investors. He's down in Austin 'cause he knows Bowman down there now and he's moving around. So I feel like this being out here, you get consolidated in that and you've learned shit on accident, you know what I'm saying? So I haven't actually invested in any companies, but I'm for sure, just like watching and learning the landscape as much as possible. [00:32:09] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. You get up with E-40 at all? I haven't linked up with E-40 in a while, but anytime I hit E-40, he pick up and he chat with me, Gmail, like, real cool dude. Man, like I love E-40 'cause any, like I said, anytime I hit him and ask him for tips and wisdom. He's always there for me, if I need them on a song, he always did. So shout out to E-40.  [00:32:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah. 'Cause like, think about the investment thing, I mean, obviously both in Vallejo and... [00:32:34] Rexx Life Raj: He's the man.  [00:32:35] Dan Runcie: He is the man. Anytime I see it, I'm like, I see his name everywhere. I'm almost surprised when I don't see him at certain deals now. [00:32:42] Rexx Life Raj: E-40, he's going to sell you anything. He sells sausages. He sells lumpia. He got E Cuarenta Tequila. He got burritos now, the hood burritos at the store, like, when you think about entrepreneurship and just real rap independence, like, E-40 is the pinnacle, bro. Like, he's giving niggas the blueprint for so long and he's been doing it. That's what I'm saying. Like, pure longevity, you know, he's like, who's been doing this independent shit for as long as he has and has been that great at it? [00:33:15] Rexx Life Raj: It's not too many people, you know what I'm saying? So shout out to E-40, man. He's been ahead of the game for a while.  [00:33:20] Dan Runcie: And his products are good, too. I mean, we know that there's a lot of artists out there that have stuff that doesn't always click, but his Earl Stevens wine is award-winning, like, it has gotten a shout-out from all those like Napa and Sonoma County celebrations, whatever they call them. [00:33:36] Rexx Life Raj: And it's gonna get you faded. I didn't, boy, I, like, take some of that and be, oh, like, oh God, E-40 is crazy! What is it called?  [00:33:46] Dan Runcie: I know what you're talking about. [00:33:48] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, it ain't no joke, bro. You trying to get drunk, you gotta bring some of that. It's crazy.  [00:33:54] Rexx Life Raj: Oh, man. That's wild. That's wild. But Raj, man, I'm excited for you. You got a lot to look forward to this year. Obviously, I know that a lot of it hasn't been the easiest, but when you're looking at the rest of this year, then also in 2023, what are you most excited about? What's getting you excited, looking forward to where things are heading and where you want to, where you want to take things? I'm just excited to drop the album and just see where it takes me, hit the road again, go to Europe, you know, do all the things that come with dropping the album, because I feel like for the last year and a half, I've really missed that. [00:34:27] Rexx Life Raj: So just like everything that comes up on our music, you know, like, I think the next phase of my career is like really focusing, focusing on other artists from the Bay who I think I have a lot of potential and kind of like giving them game and wisdom and putting them on. So I'm working with, you know, a bunch of different artists in the Bay and just kind of focusing on them and giving them a shot 'cause it's, I think it's a Renaissance happening in the Bay, you know, in the underground music scene that not too many people know about. I feel like it's really coming to light and you get to see how diverse the music scene in the Bay is 'cause I feel like for a while we were just known really for one thing, one sound. But it's so much dope shit happening in the Bay, you know what I'm saying? Like, from bills like ‎Elujay, to, there's this singer in Vallejo, she's really tight, named Tyler Lauren. She's really cool. My brother, The Dakota Wytefoxx. Michael Sneed who's doing all that shit. My boy, JAMMY, you got, you know, I think her username is thuymusic. She's doing a lot of jazz. It's like, it's so much going on in the Bay, you know, and I'm happy to that it's actually in the light that it deserves at this point. [00:35:30] Dan Runcie: I know, that's legit and thinking about all the activity, too, I'm sure you saw it as well. The Golden State Warriors started their own record label and I'm like, if there's any sign that there's something...  [00:35:40] Rexx Life Raj: I did not know that. [00:35:41] Dan Runcie: Oh, you didn't hear this? [00:35:43] Rexx Life Raj: No, tell me about it. I did not know. They started a record label? [00:35:46] Dan Runcie: Okay. I'll send you the link to it after we're done, but yeah. So the Golden State Warriors started a record label and they are planning to sign and support the artists that are local in the area, right? Like they want to invest in the talent here and using their arena and using the concerts that come through as a platform, maybe some of their own documentaries. They're trying to use that and use that as a platform to push these artists.  [00:36:10] Rexx Life Raj: That's crazy. No, I did not know that. That's actually insane. That's tight though. That's interesting. I need to read the article because that's crazy.  [00:36:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I'll send it to you. Yeah, because I actually just interviewed the guy that's running it, David Kelly. He's their Chief Business Officer over there. So yeah. I'll send you the link to that too. [00:36:26] Rexx Life Raj: Dope, man. I appreciate that. That's clean.  [00:36:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. But Raj, before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug or let the Trapital audience know about?  [00:36:37] Rexx Life Raj: Man, I'm dropping The Blue Hour soon. Appreciate you having me, man. I appreciate anybody who's watching this who's been a fan of me for however long and, you know, stay tapped in, and I appreciate y'all.  [00:36:48] Dan Runcie: Yes, sir. And where can people find you? [00:36:49] Rexx Life Raj: Anywhere, man. Google. I'm on every platform, Rexx Life Raj, R-E-X-X-L-I-F-E-R-A-J. You know, if you know how to use the internet on your phone, you can find me. I'm everywhere, man. [00:37:05] Dan Runcie: That sounds good, man.  [00:37:07] Rexx Life Raj: All right, man. I appreciate you.  [00:37:09] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 03 Jun 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Bay Area Hip-Hop with Rexx Life Raj full Dan Runcie Bay area artist Rexx Life Raj (real name Faraji Omar Wrightz) is in album mode with “Blue Hour” set to drop soon. The new album is his most personal yet. It was largely recorded after his mother passed away and before his father did too — which was within a three-month span of each other during 2021. The personal grief of both losses influenced the sounds of the new music.  While recording this music was one way Raj coped with his grief, he also wants the album to do the same for others going through similar pains in their own lives. The deeper purpose behind Blue Hour is to create a safe space to talk about grief, especially amongst black men, where the topic of mental health can fly under the radar.  Raj wants Blue Hour to honor his parents, who instilled in him an entrepreneurial spirit from an early age. The album will be his fifth — all released independently. A tour will follow later this year too. For a closer look at Raj’s process behind his art, listen to our full interview. Here’s everything we covered: [3:03] Bay Area’s Influence On Raj’s Music [4:51] Rexx’s Entrepreneurship Spirit Stems From Parents [7:07] Did Rex Ever Consider Taking A Record Label Deal? [8:13] The TikTok Effect On Artists (Pros & Cons) [11:25] Content Strategy For Raj’s Newest Album  [14:25] Why Grief Is Such A Big Theme In Rex’s Music [17:40] How Raj Is Coping With The Loss Of His Parents [24:10] Personal Goals For The Upcoming Album [25:53] Post-Album Tour Plans [30:40] How Tapped In Is Raj To Local Tech Scene? [32:42] E-40’s Entrepreneurship Skills [36:37] What Is Raj Most Excited About? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Rexx Life Raj, @rexxliferaj   This episode was brought to you by Highlight. Build the community of your dreams on the blockchain. The new company is backed by leading investors like Haun Ventures, Thirty Five Ventures (“35V”), and more. Learn more at highlight.xyz     Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Rexx Life Raj: When it comes to numbers, like, you can buy followers, you can buy comments, you can buy likes, but a lot of people will tune in for the spectacle, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's a lot of followers who are just like there for the show. Like, you're really good on the internet so we just want to watch you on the internet. [00:00:15] Rexx Life Raj: But it never translates to anything real. It's like, that's why looking at engagement is such a big thing. Like, I'll look into followers, but then I'll look at how many comments, like, I'll be looking at that kind of shit. Like, how many comments you got? Like, how many people are really tapped in? What's the engagement like on all platforms? 'Cause that's how you can really tell [00:00:39] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:59] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Rexx Life Raj. He's a Bay Area artist known for the Father Figure trilogy and his upcoming album, The Blue Hour. In this episode, Raj and I talked a lot about the inspiration for this album and what brought him up to this point? Raj, unfortunately, lost both of his parents in the past year so one of the big focuses for this album was grief. [00:01:21] Dan Runcie: What are the things that Raj had done to process that, him being able to navigate that and some of the coping things that he had done over the year and how that prepared him to be in the mode to create this album. So we talked about the process for that. And we also talked about some of the things he's done to market and push the album. [00:01:38] Dan Runcie: He has a blog, he has a trailer, and being able to truly document the process. So we talk about some of that balance that a lot of artists have between the marketing they need to do in the actual product that they need to put out and share with their fans. We talked about that and we also talked about how that relates to TikTok. [00:01:57] Dan Runcie: TikTok has been one of the growing debates with a lot of artists in terms of how they put their content out there and record labels wanting to push them to do things, but Raj is in a different position. He isn't signed to a record label. He is independent. He still does distribution through EMPIRE. So we talked about that decision as well and how he looks at some of the broader trends, whether it's TikTok or, thinking more broadly, he does have a tour coming up as well to promote the album. [00:02:24] Dan Runcie: So we talked a little bit about what it's like doing festivals versus doing tours yourself. And this was a really good episode. I think a lot of the independent artists will appreciate this. A lot of the independent creators will appreciate this as well because a lot of you are taking a more bootstrapped approach. [00:02:42] Dan Runcie: You know, it's going to be a longer game, but a lot of the decisions you make need to line up with this strategy and Raj to someone that's doing it on a successful level. So I hope you enjoy this chat. Here's my conversation with Rex life, Raj. All right, today we got the one and only Bay Area native Rexx Life Raj here. How are you doing, man?  [00:03:00] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah. I can't complain. How are you doing? [00:03:03] Dan Runcie: I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited for this. And it's good to talk to the artists that are from here, and especially you because you have always had the Bay Area such a clear and prominent focus in your music and your music videos. And I really feel like it's a character in your art in a lot of ways. Can you talk a little bit about the influence Bay Area has and how it shapes what you put out?  [00:03:25] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, man. I think that the Bay Area is just like such an influential place and you see it in terms of just the way, like our lingo spreads, that the sound of the music spreads, you know, the dancing that comes from here, everything is so like cultural and impactful that I feel like if you're from here, it just comes out of you without even trying. Because you know, people always tell me, [00:03:45] Rexx Life Raj: like, they get that from me and I don't even be trying. It's just like who I am. So I think the Bay Area is tight 'cause it's like a blend of so many different people, but at the cooler of the culture, everybody HiFi for real, you know what I'm saying? And that's really what it is, you know. So, yeah, I love the Bay Area, man.  [00:04:01] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's like not everyone needs to do HiFi straight up music, but I feel like you kind of find your own spin on that, right? Like, you can see the origins, but you took it in your own direction.  [00:04:10] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, it was like, I think that's what's dope about art is that like, to me, art is people living in this life and taking these experiences and it goes through your filter and it comes out how it comes out. You know what I'm saying? So I took an artist of life around me and this is how it comes out. But I think you could still feel like the Bay Area in it just 'cause, you know, this is who I am and where I'm from.  [00:04:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. And I think, too, looking at your background, I know that your father was a big influence. Not just in your music, but also how you approach your career as someone that owned businesses and I feel like I see a similar thread with how you've went about the business side of music, especially as an independent artist. [00:04:51] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, for sure. Like, like you said, my dad was an entrepreneur since I was born. I think he had, like, he worked at Coca-Cola up until I think a couple of years before I was born. And then after that, it was pure, like, entrepreneurship. He got tired of working for people. He wanted to set his own schedule and kind of just be in control of his own destiny. [00:05:09] Rexx Life Raj: So that's all, I really know, like my mom worked at Cal up until I was like three or four, but then she started fully working with my dad in the business. So it was kind of like where I come from. I don't even really know what it feels like to work a job. Like, I worked for a summer job while I was in college, but everything I know is kind of like building it from the ground up, building it from scratch and, you know, nurturing it and watching it grow. [00:05:32] Rexx Life Raj: And it's kind of what I do in every avenue in like in music, in the brands I have outside of music and just kind of all I know.  [00:05:38] Dan Runcie: Right. And I know with that path that takes a lot of patience and likely a lot more patience than you're seeing from some of your peers that may be doing other things, whether it's with major labels or others. [00:05:48] Dan Runcie: And I can speak to that too, from running a bootstrap business and just seeing how it is with others that are going a different path. But how has that been from your perspective? Just balancing obviously the patience, but knowing the long-term outcome that's on the other side. [00:06:04] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, man. I think it's just something that's kind of ingrained in me from, you know, seeing my parents 'cause they had that business for like 30 years and with was so many ebbs and flows in the business, but just knowing, like, it's something sustainable that's going to carry you for the rest of your life. It puts a different perspective on it. And also it's like, I come from a football background and I was the o lineman. [00:06:26] Rexx Life Raj: I'm used to not getting, like, no shine and no glory and just putting in the work, you know what I'm saying? It's kind of what I come from. So I feel like it's like that with music and for me, and you could probably relate when you doing something like this, it don't feel like work. You know, you're just having fun. [00:06:41] Rexx Life Raj: So I'm not looking at it like, oh, this is hard. This is tedious. It's like, nah, you're, you're building something. It's a blessing, bro. I get to build something from scratch that people resonate with, you know what I'm saying? And it's like, people are finding value and meaning in it. So it becomes like, even more purposeful for me. So I was just like, bro, I'm blessed, bro. I can't complain about too much.  [00:07:00] Dan Runcie: Was there ever a point that you did consider doing a more traditional record label deal?  [00:07:07] Rexx Life Raj: Not really. I mean, we, I want to say a few years ago we took a few meetings with some bigger record labels, but I think my situation with EMPIRE, for me personally, is just, you know, it's ideal, you know? 'Cause I can move out when I want to move. I can kind of do what I want to do. There's no restrictions on me. You know, you hear stories about the majors. You're on a schedule, or you're shelved, or you can put out something. People have been waiting for, like, a year to put out music and, you know, it's such a big system that people get lost in it, you know what I'm saying? You're just banking on having somebody in a building that's rocking with you and you hear stories about those people leaving and now you just kind of, you know, up in the air. So it's like, you hear a lot of weird stories, but for me, the situation I'm in is just, it's solid. I can't, I can't speak on what happens down the road or if it makes sense, maybe it don't makes sense then, but for right now, it's like, what I have is pretty tight. [00:08:00] Dan Runcie: I hear you on the weird stories. The one I keep hearing right now is people talking about the labels, trying to make them put out TikToks, right? Label wants them to put out a TikTok before they released the track, before they released the album. What do you think about that?  [00:08:13] Rexx Life Raj: It's interesting, but I think about that a lot. It really makes me sad, you know what I'm saying? Like, when I really think about, like, but it makes me sad cause it's, like, if you're an artist and you don't want to do that, and that's kind of, like, 'cause some people have that persona and personality where it plays into that, you know, they're good at the internet. [00:08:30] Rexx Life Raj: Some artists are really good at the internet, but I feel bad for the artists who just want to make music. And now they feel like they have to do Tiktok and be less organic and it don't feel right. Like, to me, that's not tight, but at the same time, it's a platform that's enabling so many up-and-coming creators because the algorithm over there is crazy. [00:08:49] Rexx Life Raj: Like, I remember when I first got on TikTok, I had, like, 50, 70 followers who just followed me over to TikTok, but I will post things and they will go, like, fake viral, like 30,000 views, 40,000 when I only have 50 followers. So I'm like, it's a game that you have to play. Like, you can go over there and bullshit and fake go viral by accident, you know what I'm saying? But it's kinda like, it's kind of contingent upon the artists, but I see, you know, it needs encouragement on both sides.,  [00:09:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think we're also still just so early that we're likely going to see more types of content that can be put out when someone puts out a TikTok, right? Because I feel like when it started, it was people doing these dances that are just in this like vertical screen. [00:09:32] Dan Runcie: But, all right. They've expanded the timeframe. Like, it doesn't have to look like that. It reminds me of, like, when MTV first came out, you started to hear a little bit of that, right? Everyone thought it was just going to make people to these, like, phonies that just did these, like, Milli Vanilli dances and stuff like that, but then it, then it evolved. So I feel like that could still happen, right? Just 'cause like you said, the reach is so massive. [00:09:55] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah. No, I think it's happening right now because I feel like from what I've learned in my experience is that fans, like, people who are fans of you are, who are becoming fans of you actually want to know you. And I feel like, you know, with TikTok, it's a place where you could be, you could be dancing and viral and all that, but you can really be personal and show people behind the scenes, like, I look like a LaRussell out of Vallejo. And he's really good at, like, at the internet period, but like, he's not really TikToking like playing a game, he's just getting on there and rapping, you know what I'm saying? [00:10:28] Rexx Life Raj: And people are receptive to that 'cause there's a whole demographic who just want to hear people rap. So I think it's really about finding like a little niche, something that's comfortable for you, and understanding that, like, you're not making content for everybody in the world. You're making content for your people and finding your people. And like I said, knowing what's comfortable with you and you can win for sure.  [00:10:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I agree with that, and that's a good example of that, right? Like, I was just reading an article, I was talking about, yeah, the platform's maturing and it's going to be more niches and the more niches, yeah, the less people that are going to want to see these standard TikTok dances, more people are going to want to see bars. [00:11:04] Dan Runcie: They're going to want to see people wrap. So that's a good point there. Shifting gears though, I want to talk a little bit more about your album, The Blue Hour and what you have coming up. You have the trailer for it. You got the vlog. I really like how you've built up and had the rollout for it. Can you talk to me about the strategy or the plan for how you want it to execute that all? [00:11:25] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, for me at this point, bro, cause I just understand like, everything is about content and it kind of goes back to what we were talking about with TikTok. Content is king, you know what I'm saying? And for me it's just, I want it to have as much content as possible. So I had the cameraman, you know, my boy filming all these sessions. And then, anytime I'll have a show, I have somebody film it or anytime I have ideas, it's, like, let's try to do this idea, you know what I'm saying? 'Cause the more content you have the better. And so it's just literally when I went into it, it's just like, bro, follow me with the camera and just get everything. [00:11:59] Rexx Life Raj: Then it'll be shit in here that we could just slowly roll out and turn into a vlog. And then turn it into a documentary, like I'm actually shooting a real documentary right now that we're starting to drop trailers for, but it's just like, anytime there's a camera, turn it on, you know? 'Cause you could choose whether to put it on or put it out, you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's not like you have to put it out, but people want to see the process, like they want to hear the music, of course, but people want to see the process. They want to see how you create. They want to see the thinking behind it. They want to see who you're collaborating with. [00:12:29] Rexx Life Raj: It just makes that connection to your fans I think that much stronger. So it's like when me, I'm just trying to involve them in as much of the process and my thinking as possible to really, you know, make them connect as much as possible.  [00:12:41] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Do you ever feel any tension with that approach? Because I know I've heard from other artists where they feel like when the cameras are out, they need to do this stuff. It makes them feel like they're more of a marketer than they are an artist. And obviously, it's a combination of both. But how was that for you? Especially as, you know, you want to be in album mode, you know, you obviously have a concept that you want to be able to do purely from an artistic person. [00:13:04] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, I don't really have that problem, right? And it might be, 'cause I did have the camera on me at this point for a while. You know what I'm saying? Like, I've always had people following me with cameras, but also it's like, I think, you know, if you have a good videographer, they're not all in your face with the camera, like they might ask you questions every now and then. [00:13:20] Rexx Life Raj: But the people I work with, they're planning the cut. You know what I'm saying? It's like, they're almost not even in the room. To me, that's the best kind of cameraman. It's just like behind the speaker or you're not even paying attention to him. And he's kind of shooting you while you were in the booth 'cause it could be like a distraction. I think as soon as the camera comes on and you're very conscious of it, it changes everybody. Like, this conversation with us will be different if we weren't on camera, it'd probably be more candid. But since we know people are watching, like you kind of changed. [00:13:47] Rexx Life Raj: So like, I think it's really just, like, having a good cameraman is just like, they're not really in the room. And then maybe after, you know, luckily I've had the camera videographers who are like, afterwards, they'll contextualize it. Like, they'll ask me a question or, like, let's elaborate on this afterwards. But during the process, it's really kind of like playing the clip and just recording. [00:14:07] Dan Runcie: Right, that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. And I think for you as well, thinking about this album, specifically, a lot of the focus you're talking about grief, and you want to be able to not just process your own, but helping other people with it. Why was that an important focus for you with this album? [00:14:25] Rexx Life Raj: For me, because I think my music is very much grounded in reality, in my real life. And I feel like for me, like this past year, year and a half was the most insane, impactful year I've personally ever had in my life. And I feel like there's no way that it wouldn't come out of me, you know what I'm saying? It's just, so much happened and there was so much emotion and everything built up in me and it came out in the music. And for me, it was almost like, you know, you went through all this shit and you felt all these feelings. There has to be a way that you can transmute this into something that can help people going through the same thing. [00:15:04] Rexx Life Raj: And for me, music has always been like my favorite songs aren't really the turn-up songs. They're the songs that cut all the way, you know, I'm going through some shit or I need to cry or I'm in my feelings or something. And it's like knowing that music has that capacity and knowing that it could be that like music has helped me in times where I was going through whatever I was going through and knowing that I have the potential to do that. [00:15:27] Rexx Life Raj: To me, it feels only right to put that into my music, because like I said, I've done songs where like Moxie Jova, Shit N' Floss where people turn up and it's crazy when I perform it. But then I do songs like Time where it hits people on almost like a spiritual level, not even almost, it is a spiritual level in that feeling. [00:15:46] Rexx Life Raj: That's how I know this is my purpose 'cause I'm so attached to that feeling that people get where they're just like turning up and having fun. So it's like, I want it to create a space for people to be able to talk about grief, to be able to talk about it, especially for black men, because the experience is so much, but how we talk about it, like, with the homies, to me, it's kind of like crazy. Either we talk about it, very surface level, or we don't talk about it. And we hold these feelings in and we harbor it. And that's why for me, like, going back to everything outside of the music, the music is one thing, but my rollout has been to be focused on like, letting people know, like, yo it's okay to express these feelings if necessary, to talk about these things, you know what I'm saying? So that's kind of been my whole thing with this, with this album. [00:16:31] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Yeah, I feel like this is generally gotten better over time where we are seeing more artists like yourself and others sharing their thoughts and being vulnerable. And I think we've seen it just more broadly in culture where people are becoming much more comfortable. And there is less of a stigma, especially with black men around checking out for your own mental health, being able to get awareness with things. But I still feel like there's plenty of room to grow with that. So you, of course, you know, not just using yourself as an example, but being able to communicate that through music is going to help a lot of people. I know you mentioned that the past year and a half has been tough and I'm sure that a lot of people could likely relate to that for their own respective reasons. So there's a timeliness here as well. And there are so many things happening that I feel like we've almost become immune to whether it's things happening our own life or things happening in society where no, it's helpful to pause because that doesn't happen as often as it should. And things just keep going and going.  [00:17:40] Rexx Life Raj: Literally, man. I mean, for me too, it's like for people who don't know, just to kind of like give you a synopsis of what's going on. I lost both of my parents last year. I lost my mom in May, and then my dad in August and the majority of the album wasn't really right before my dad passed. So it is sort of three months right after my mom passed. And it's crazy because I remember something that she said to me that stuck with me, it's like, when she got diagnosed with cancer, we had a conversation and one of the things she said was no matter what happens to me, I know you'll, you'll do something good, like whether it be music or whether it be, you know, just you talking about it or whatever. She's like, I know something good comes from this. And I feel like one of the biggest things for me when it comes to grief is finding ways to honor the people you lost, right? So for me, it's like, the album honors her. Me talking about, you know, when I'm going through honors her and that's one of the biggest things for me, that's why I'm so open about it because it's like, yo, it's one thing to go to the cemetery or, you know, wherever your place is where you honor the people you lose. [00:18:50] Rexx Life Raj: But to me, like, I want to take action in some way to honor my mom, you know what I'm saying? So that's kind of what all there is to me.  [00:18:57] Dan Runcie: I mean, I could only imagine how you felt. It's so sad just losing both of them in such a short amount of time and obviously, this album has been a point of catharsis for you. [00:19:08] Dan Runcie: I'm sure. Just the process. And like you mentioned a few of the things you've done as well, but what are some of the other ways that you've been able to the best that you can cope and manage your own stress and grief with the losses and any and everything else in your life.  [00:19:22] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, man, music has really been a main thing cause it was really therapeutic for me, but I think being around friends and family, for me, and being able to talk about these things and cry when I need to in front of the homies and just get things out is important. [00:19:35] Rexx Life Raj: I try to stay on top of like meditating. Like, I try to meditate two or three times a week, you know, I pray a lot, you know, anything that I could get these feelings out of me. One of the biggest things for me, it sounds funny, but it's the Peleton, you know what I'm saying? For me personally, when I'm going through anything, working out is such a stress reliever, you know what I'm saying? [00:19:55] Rexx Life Raj: So I had got a Peloton right when my mom got sick and it was something that like any time I built up extra energy or anxiety in my body, I'll just go hop on the Peleton. And outside of me losing a little bit of weight, it just helped me mentally, you know, just working out. I'm really thankful for the Peloton, shout out to all the instructors and stuff on there. [00:20:15] Rexx Life Raj: That's really tight, but yeah, just find a way to get it out of me. Like, I do all the little stuff. Like I journal a lot, you know what I'm saying? Anything that could get my thoughts out and just kind of figure out what's going on. 'Cause I feel like people have these things in their head, but when you write it down and you can reread it and really see what's going on in your mind, you can have better understanding of what you're going through. [00:20:34] Rexx Life Raj: So I did this thing called morning pages, which at one point I was waking up every morning. So what you do is you wake up every morning and you just journal for like two or three pages, whatever comes to your mind, you know what I'm saying? Like, no matter what it could be, because when you first wake up, it would be shit like I'm tired. [00:20:49] Rexx Life Raj: And I really don't feel like writing this. I didn't get a good night's sleep, but the more you write, the more real feelings and thoughts come out. And what happens is if you do it for a long enough period of time, you start to see consistencies and you're thinking in your feelings, right? So you might, for somebody who might be, you know, in a relationship, they keep having these problems in their relationship, and they noticed that they write about it every day, you know, or that you're having problems with your dad or your mom or something that keeps coming up. And what it allows you to do is see it like, yo, this thing keeps happening and then you have the choice to take action, because if it keeps happening and you don't take action, nothing's going to change. [00:21:27] Rexx Life Raj: But by you writing it every day, like you've seen it seven days, seven days, it forces you to take action and you can clearly see what's going on in your life. So I really believe in that, I read that in a book called The Artist's Way. I highly recommend like that for any artists or anybody just in the creative realm for sure. [00:21:44] Dan Runcie: That makes a lot of sense. And I've heard similar with people doing voice memos as well. You know, just being able to have that steady, consistent thing that you're putting out there because, yeah, over time it is going to be a reflection of where things are and just that habit of it's one thing to journal, but it's actually having a common practice with it. [00:22:03] Dan Runcie: I'm sure that's been huge. And I could imagine that even some of that has been a helpful reflection for you as you were putting this album together as well.  [00:22:11] Rexx Life Raj: For sure. It's crazy 'cause when I was going through, you know, basically being a caregiver for my parents, cause I was taking care of both of them. I didn't really have time to do music because I was so consumed and taking my mom to chemo or radiation. [00:22:26] Rexx Life Raj: And then my dad, he was already sick. So I'll have to take him to dialysis and the Kaiser and I was, you know, cooking the meals and staying at the house, make sure everything is right. So I really was so overwhelmed with life that I didn't even have the capacity to do music, but what I always did was I have a, in my notes tab, I have a note just called life notes. [00:22:48] Rexx Life Raj: So anytime something would happen, like, I'll have feelings, a lot of different feelings and emotions. I would just jot it down in the notes. So in my phone, I literally had, bro, just so many life notes because there's music in everything that songs and the conversations you have with people are songs. Like, these feelings that you feel, these experiences that you have can now be turned into music. [00:23:10] Rexx Life Raj: So even when I couldn't necessarily make music, I was just taking notes. So when it became, like, after my mom passed and I started going back to the studio. Like, I had just so much to draw from, you know what I'm saying? So it's not like I had to sit and even think about now, what am I going to write about? What am I going to do? [00:23:29] Rexx Life Raj: It's all in the notes. So it's like the album was written before it was written and it had to piece it together.  [00:23:34] Dan Runcie: Right. That makes sense, right? It's like documenting the process, like, like anything. And I do think that just being able to have that likely helped the product of it, too. So, and I know that that was coming out soon. You're definitely excited about where things are heading. [00:23:49] Dan Runcie: Do you have any particular milestones or goals that you have that you're trying to hit with this album? I know that you're not signed to a major record label, so some of those same types of things may not exist, but a lot of it may be a bit more on the personal side for what you have. Is there anything that you have that you're shooting for, that you have as a particular milestone? [00:24:10] Rexx Life Raj: Not necessarily numbers-wise 'cause I feel like as soon as I do that, I can set myself up to not be happy if I don't hit those things. So I don't really be tripping off numbers. Like my thing, when it comes to numbers is as long as we're on the up and it's better than what we've been doing, then we're doing something right. [00:24:26] Rexx Life Raj: But my whole goal and intention with this album was to help people who are going through what I was going through. Like, that's all I was thinking about. And I see it, you know, in the songs that I've released, my DMs be crazy with people who are either, you know, it's a lot of people in my DMs whose parents are ill right now. [00:24:44] Rexx Life Raj: So they resonate with the music. It's even more people in my DMs who are going through grief. And the music is helping them process in any way. So to me, that's the win for me, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's the win is the music helping people navigate through life and shit. The numbers are just numbers and the numbers be fake a lot of times, like, you know, so I don't really be concerned about the numbers, you know what I'm saying? [00:25:05] Rexx Life Raj: But for me, it's just being intentional in what I put into the music and just hoping that it resonates with people.  [00:25:11] Dan Runcie: And it sounds like it already is, like you said, if you're having the folks of the DMs hitting you up and responding to it, that's great. And I got to imagine that being able to potentially see that impact in person at some point would likely be an ideal thing that I'm sure people would connect with as well. Are there plans to tour, do live shows after the album's released?  [00:25:33] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, we already got the tour locked in toward the end of the year. I've got a few festivals, actually have a festival on Sunday. I just did one in Sacramento. So we got a lot of little festivals and shows coming up but the actual tour is set for the end of the year so I'm super excited. [00:25:49] Dan Runcie: Nice. Do you prefer festival performances or do you prefer your own tour stops?  [00:25:53] Rexx Life Raj: I prefer my own tour, you know what I'm saying? 'Cause what a festival, especially for artists at my level, you never really know how many people are there for you and it's tight because it's a bigger crowd so you can win new fans and festival experiences are always super fun, but like you alluded to earlier, just the connection that I've made with the people that I know I've made that connection with is different. [00:26:17] Rexx Life Raj: You know what I'm saying? It's, it's spiritual. That's the only word I can have for it, bro. 'Cause I've had shows where, you know, I'll perform a song and people cry, you know what I'm saying? It's like they came for that song, you know what I'm saying? That came out of my brain and for whatever reason, it resonated with them. [00:26:33] Rexx Life Raj: To me, that's just, you know, and to have people sing songs in unison. And it's just like a different type of connection when it's your own show, but festivals are tied to them. And I love festivals.  [00:26:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like, especially for independent artists, a mix in general is what people do thrive in. And I feel like that generally makes sense, but especially for independent artists, your career is already built on the long game and touring is a much longer game than a lot of festivals, right? Festivals, their upfront cash should be great. It could be bigger than what you may get from an initial stop, but like you said, you don't know if they're necessarily there for you, but you could be reaching out to new fans versus at a tour, even if the total audience may not be what it may be in that festival crowd, all those people are there to see you and you build on that and you're going there with the next album. And the one after that, like, that's where that long game is that lines up with that independent mentality.  [00:27:29] Rexx Life Raj: Literally, man, and I'm happy you said that 'cause I be trying to preach that to, you know, any up and coming artist that asked me for advice. It's like, that's what I'm focused on. You know, the touring. That's what I look at. Like, even when, you know, everybody has a moment and niggas be laid on the internet and shit look cool. My first thought is like, can I sell tickets? [00:27:48] Rexx Life Raj: Are they selling merch? 'Cause in real life, that's, what's going to sustain you. Like, have you built maybe another business or brand outside of yourself? Because the internet shit is cool, but real life is what's going, what gets you paid in the long term. So, yeah, I'm happy you said that.  [00:28:05] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. I had this piece that had gotten some traction recently that was a breakdown on why your followers are not your fans and the followers, exactly, it's the internet shit that you're talking about, right? It just doesn't always line up. And we both know people that have millions, tens of millions of followers, but they can't sell when they actually go to show things and makes you question, okay, were all those true numbers, legit stream numbers and all those things? And you can't fake actually, to have actual bodies there, like watching you perform a concert.  [00:28:38] Rexx Life Raj: It's the only thing you can't fake, man. That's what I'm saying. Like, the internet is really, but at the same time, like if you play the internet correctly, you can make money off the internet as well. [00:28:47] Rexx Life Raj: Like, you know, don't get it twisted, like there's money to be made on the internet. But as far as sustainability, like, I've only seen it this way, you know what I'm saying? And like you said, everything can be manipulated. And even when it comes to numbers, like you can buy followers, you can buy comments, you can buy likes, but a lot of people will tune in for the spectacle, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's a lot of followers who are just like there for the show. Like, you're really good on the internet so we just want to watch you on the internet. But it never translates to anything real. It's like, that's why looking at engagement is such a big thing. Like, I'll look at the followers but then I'll look at how many comments, like I would be looking at that kind of shit. Like, how many comments he got? Like, how many people are really tapped in? What's the engagement like on all platforms? [00:29:30] Rexx Life Raj: 'Cause that's how you can really tell. 'Cause it's been harder to, like, for instance, on Instagram, I think I got like 80,000 followers, right? But there's been artists who I've seen that had like 20,000 followers, 30,000 followers, even less, their engagement is way higher and they're selling way more tickets than me. [00:29:47] Rexx Life Raj: And I'm like, damn, dude. Like, that's it. Cause you damn near made all your followers believe to the point where we following you not only on here, but we following you in real life to the stage, you know? And that's crazy to me. So yes, it's an interesting game for sure.  [00:30:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good example. I mean, you're seeing it that way because you see it the other way, too, people that, you know, you got tens of millions of followers and then less than a thousand people, like the last photo, what, like, no.  [00:30:18] Rexx Life Raj: Something's not clicking. Something's ain't right. But, yeah, for sure. [00:30:22] Dan Runcie: So you're the Bay Area, and of course we know there's a lot of tech investments happening out here. And I know that you are interested in things outside of directly making music as well. What does that side of things look like for you? Have you got involved in the investing side, looking at different startups and companies? [00:30:40] Rexx Life Raj: I'm kind of tapping in 'cause I have friends who are really in that world. Like my girlfriend works for Facebook, so she's fully in it. One of my best friends, he works for Google, so he's fully in it. And then one of my good friends who I went to college with, Jason Robinson, he has a VR/AR software, it's called Playbook Five. [00:31:00] Rexx Life Raj: And so he actually just did a pitch in Menlo park, Denver last weekend, pitching to investors. It's lit, it's really tight. Like, you put on the Oculus or whatever, and it's for kids to learn, like, kids in high school and middle school who are trying to play any sport in college. It teaches you all these schemes and game plans and everything you can learn through a software, but what's he trying to do is make it accredited. So say, like, they're trying to go to Cal to play football and Cal runs a three, four scheme on defense for the players who aren't like four or five stars who are getting directly looked at by the school. They can look at Playbook Five and be like, oh, let's check this kid out. [00:31:37] Rexx Life Raj: He's fully accredited in our scheme. So they bring him in and he fully knows what's going on. And so like this, seeing the homies do stuff like that, you're automatically drawn into it because that shit is the future, you know what I'm saying? And then he's telling me like, like I said, how he's pitching and he's looking for investors. He's down in Austin 'cause he knows Bowman down there now and he's moving around. So I feel like this being out here, you get consolidated in that and you've learned shit on accident, you know what I'm saying? So I haven't actually invested in any companies, but I'm for sure, just like watching and learning the landscape as much as possible. [00:32:09] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. You get up with E-40 at all? I haven't linked up with E-40 in a while, but anytime I hit E-40, he pick up and he chat with me, Gmail, like, real cool dude. Man, like I love E-40 'cause any, like I said, anytime I hit him and ask him for tips and wisdom. He's always there for me, if I need them on a song, he always did. So shout out to E-40.  [00:32:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah. 'Cause like, think about the investment thing, I mean, obviously both in Vallejo and... [00:32:34] Rexx Life Raj: He's the man.  [00:32:35] Dan Runcie: He is the man. Anytime I see it, I'm like, I see his name everywhere. I'm almost surprised when I don't see him at certain deals now. [00:32:42] Rexx Life Raj: E-40, he's going to sell you anything. He sells sausages. He sells lumpia. He got E Cuarenta Tequila. He got burritos now, the hood burritos at the store, like, when you think about entrepreneurship and just real rap independence, like, E-40 is the pinnacle, bro. Like, he's giving niggas the blueprint for so long and he's been doing it. That's what I'm saying. Like, pure longevity, you know, he's like, who's been doing this independent shit for as long as he has and has been that great at it? [00:33:15] Rexx Life Raj: It's not too many people, you know what I'm saying? So shout out to E-40, man. He's been ahead of the game for a while.  [00:33:20] Dan Runcie: And his products are good, too. I mean, we know that there's a lot of artists out there that have stuff that doesn't always click, but his Earl Stevens wine is award-winning, like, it has gotten a shout-out from all those like Napa and Sonoma County celebrations, whatever they call them. [00:33:36] Rexx Life Raj: And it's gonna get you faded. I didn't, boy, I, like, take some of that and be, oh, like, oh God, E-40 is crazy! What is it called?  [00:33:46] Dan Runcie: I know what you're talking about. [00:33:48] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, it ain't no joke, bro. You trying to get drunk, you gotta bring some of that. It's crazy.  [00:33:54] Rexx Life Raj: Oh, man. That's wild. That's wild. But Raj, man, I'm excited for you. You got a lot to look forward to this year. Obviously, I know that a lot of it hasn't been the easiest, but when you're looking at the rest of this year, then also in 2023, what are you most excited about? What's getting you excited, looking forward to where things are heading and where you want to, where you want to take things? I'm just excited to drop the album and just see where it takes me, hit the road again, go to Europe, you know, do all the things that come with dropping the album, because I feel like for the last year and a half, I've really missed that. [00:34:27] Rexx Life Raj: So just like everything that comes up on our music, you know, like, I think the next phase of my career is like really focusing, focusing on other artists from the Bay who I think I have a lot of potential and kind of like giving them game and wisdom and putting them on. So I'm working with, you know, a bunch of different artists in the Bay and just kind of focusing on them and giving them a shot 'cause it's, I think it's a Renaissance happening in the Bay, you know, in the underground music scene that not too many people know about. I feel like it's really coming to light and you get to see how diverse the music scene in the Bay is 'cause I feel like for a while we were just known really for one thing, one sound. But it's so much dope shit happening in the Bay, you know what I'm saying? Like, from bills like ‎Elujay, to, there's this singer in Vallejo, she's really tight, named Tyler Lauren. She's really cool. My brother, The Dakota Wytefoxx. Michael Sneed who's doing all that shit. My boy, JAMMY, you got, you know, I think her username is thuymusic. She's doing a lot of jazz. It's like, it's so much going on in the Bay, you know, and I'm happy to that it's actually in the light that it deserves at this point. [00:35:30] Dan Runcie: I know, that's legit and thinking about all the activity, too, I'm sure you saw it as well. The Golden State Warriors started their own record label and I'm like, if there's any sign that there's something...  [00:35:40] Rexx Life Raj: I did not know that. [00:35:41] Dan Runcie: Oh, you didn't hear this? [00:35:43] Rexx Life Raj: No, tell me about it. I did not know. They started a record label? [00:35:46] Dan Runcie: Okay. I'll send you the link to it after we're done, but yeah. So the Golden State Warriors started a record label and they are planning to sign and support the artists that are local in the area, right? Like they want to invest in the talent here and using their arena and using the concerts that come through as a platform, maybe some of their own documentaries. They're trying to use that and use that as a platform to push these artists.  [00:36:10] Rexx Life Raj: That's crazy. No, I did not know that. That's actually insane. That's tight though. That's interesting. I need to read the article because that's crazy.  [00:36:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I'll send it to you. Yeah, because I actually just interviewed the guy that's running it, David Kelly. He's their Chief Business Officer over there. So yeah. I'll send you the link to that too. [00:36:26] Rexx Life Raj: Dope, man. I appreciate that. That's clean.  [00:36:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. But Raj, before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug or let the Trapital audience know about?  [00:36:37] Rexx Life Raj: Man, I'm dropping The Blue Hour soon. Appreciate you having me, man. I appreciate anybody who's watching this who's been a fan of me for however long and, you know, stay tapped in, and I appreciate y'all.  [00:36:48] Dan Runcie: Yes, sir. And where can people find you? [00:36:49] Rexx Life Raj: Anywhere, man. Google. I'm on every platform, Rexx Life Raj, R-E-X-X-L-I-F-E-R-A-J. You know, if you know how to use the internet on your phone, you can find me. I'm everywhere, man. [00:37:05] Dan Runcie: That sounds good, man.  [00:37:07] Rexx Life Raj: All right, man. I appreciate you.  [00:37:09] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Bay area artist Rexx Life Raj (real name Faraji Omar Wrightz) is in album mode with “Blue Hour” set to drop soon. The new album is his most personal yet. It was largely recorded after his mother passed away and before his father did too — which was within a three-month span of each other during 2021. The personal grief of both losses influenced the sounds of the new music. 


While recording this music was one way Raj coped with his grief, he also wants the album to do the same for others going through similar pains in their own lives. The deeper purpose behind Blue Hour is to create a safe space to talk about grief, especially amongst black men, where the topic of mental health can fly under the radar. 


Raj wants Blue Hour to honor his parents, who instilled in him an entrepreneurial spirit from an early age. The album will be his fifth — all released independently. A tour will follow later this year too. For a closer look at Raj’s process behind his art, listen to our full interview. Here’s everything we covered:


[3:03] Bay Area’s Influence On Raj’s Music

[4:51] Rexx’s Entrepreneurship Spirit Stems From Parents

[7:07] Did Rex Ever Consider Taking A Record Label Deal?

[8:13] The TikTok Effect On Artists (Pros & Cons)

[11:25] Content Strategy For Raj’s Newest Album 

[14:25] Why Grief Is Such A Big Theme In Rex’s Music

[17:40] How Raj Is Coping With The Loss Of His Parents

[24:10] Personal Goals For The Upcoming Album

[25:53] Post-Album Tour Plans

[30:40] How Tapped In Is Raj To Local Tech Scene?

[32:42] E-40’s Entrepreneurship Skills

[36:37] What Is Raj Most Excited About?



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Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Rexx Life Raj, @rexxliferaj

 

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[00:00:00] Rexx Life Raj: When it comes to numbers, like, you can buy followers, you can buy comments, you can buy likes, but a lot of people will tune in for the spectacle, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's a lot of followers who are just like there for the show. Like, you're really good on the internet so we just want to watch you on the internet.

[00:00:15] Rexx Life Raj: But it never translates to anything real. It's like, that's why looking at engagement is such a big thing. Like, I'll look into followers, but then I'll look at how many comments, like, I'll be looking at that kind of shit. Like, how many comments you got? Like, how many people are really tapped in? What's the engagement like on all platforms? 'Cause that's how you can really tell

[00:00:39] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:59] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is Rexx Life Raj. He's a Bay Area artist known for the Father Figure trilogy and his upcoming album, The Blue Hour. In this episode, Raj and I talked a lot about the inspiration for this album and what brought him up to this point? Raj, unfortunately, lost both of his parents in the past year so one of the big focuses for this album was grief.

[00:01:21] Dan Runcie: What are the things that Raj had done to process that, him being able to navigate that and some of the coping things that he had done over the year and how that prepared him to be in the mode to create this album. So we talked about the process for that. And we also talked about some of the things he's done to market and push the album.

[00:01:38] Dan Runcie: He has a blog, he has a trailer, and being able to truly document the process. So we talk about some of that balance that a lot of artists have between the marketing they need to do in the actual product that they need to put out and share with their fans. We talked about that and we also talked about how that relates to TikTok.

[00:01:57] Dan Runcie: TikTok has been one of the growing debates with a lot of artists in terms of how they put their content out there and record labels wanting to push them to do things, but Raj is in a different position. He isn't signed to a record label. He is independent. He still does distribution through EMPIRE. So we talked about that decision as well and how he looks at some of the broader trends, whether it's TikTok or, thinking more broadly, he does have a tour coming up as well to promote the album.

[00:02:24] Dan Runcie: So we talked a little bit about what it's like doing festivals versus doing tours yourself. And this was a really good episode. I think a lot of the independent artists will appreciate this. A lot of the independent creators will appreciate this as well because a lot of you are taking a more bootstrapped approach.

[00:02:42] Dan Runcie: You know, it's going to be a longer game, but a lot of the decisions you make need to line up with this strategy and Raj to someone that's doing it on a successful level. So I hope you enjoy this chat. Here's my conversation with Rex life, Raj. All right, today we got the one and only Bay Area native Rexx Life Raj here. How are you doing, man? 

[00:03:00] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah. I can't complain. How are you doing?

[00:03:03] Dan Runcie: I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited for this. And it's good to talk to the artists that are from here, and especially you because you have always had the Bay Area such a clear and prominent focus in your music and your music videos. And I really feel like it's a character in your art in a lot of ways. Can you talk a little bit about the influence Bay Area has and how it shapes what you put out? 

[00:03:25] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, man. I think that the Bay Area is just like such an influential place and you see it in terms of just the way, like our lingo spreads, that the sound of the music spreads, you know, the dancing that comes from here, everything is so like cultural and impactful that I feel like if you're from here, it just comes out of you without even trying. Because you know, people always tell me,

[00:03:45] Rexx Life Raj: like, they get that from me and I don't even be trying. It's just like who I am. So I think the Bay Area is tight 'cause it's like a blend of so many different people, but at the cooler of the culture, everybody HiFi for real, you know what I'm saying? And that's really what it is, you know. So, yeah, I love the Bay Area, man. 

[00:04:01] Dan Runcie: Yeah. It's like not everyone needs to do HiFi straight up music, but I feel like you kind of find your own spin on that, right? Like, you can see the origins, but you took it in your own direction. 

[00:04:10] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, it was like, I think that's what's dope about art is that like, to me, art is people living in this life and taking these experiences and it goes through your filter and it comes out how it comes out. You know what I'm saying? So I took an artist of life around me and this is how it comes out. But I think you could still feel like the Bay Area in it just 'cause, you know, this is who I am and where I'm from. 

[00:04:31] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. And I think, too, looking at your background, I know that your father was a big influence. Not just in your music, but also how you approach your career as someone that owned businesses and I feel like I see a similar thread with how you've went about the business side of music, especially as an independent artist.

[00:04:51] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, for sure. Like, like you said, my dad was an entrepreneur since I was born. I think he had, like, he worked at Coca-Cola up until I think a couple of years before I was born. And then after that, it was pure, like, entrepreneurship. He got tired of working for people. He wanted to set his own schedule and kind of just be in control of his own destiny.

[00:05:09] Rexx Life Raj: So that's all, I really know, like my mom worked at Cal up until I was like three or four, but then she started fully working with my dad in the business. So it was kind of like where I come from. I don't even really know what it feels like to work a job. Like, I worked for a summer job while I was in college, but everything I know is kind of like building it from the ground up, building it from scratch and, you know, nurturing it and watching it grow.

[00:05:32] Rexx Life Raj: And it's kind of what I do in every avenue in like in music, in the brands I have outside of music and just kind of all I know. 

[00:05:38] Dan Runcie: Right. And I know with that path that takes a lot of patience and likely a lot more patience than you're seeing from some of your peers that may be doing other things, whether it's with major labels or others.

[00:05:48] Dan Runcie: And I can speak to that too, from running a bootstrap business and just seeing how it is with others that are going a different path. But how has that been from your perspective? Just balancing obviously the patience, but knowing the long-term outcome that's on the other side.

[00:06:04] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, man. I think it's just something that's kind of ingrained in me from, you know, seeing my parents 'cause they had that business for like 30 years and with was so many ebbs and flows in the business, but just knowing, like, it's something sustainable that's going to carry you for the rest of your life. It puts a different perspective on it. And also it's like, I come from a football background and I was the o lineman.

[00:06:26] Rexx Life Raj: I'm used to not getting, like, no shine and no glory and just putting in the work, you know what I'm saying? It's kind of what I come from. So I feel like it's like that with music and for me, and you could probably relate when you doing something like this, it don't feel like work. You know, you're just having fun.

[00:06:41] Rexx Life Raj: So I'm not looking at it like, oh, this is hard. This is tedious. It's like, nah, you're, you're building something. It's a blessing, bro. I get to build something from scratch that people resonate with, you know what I'm saying? And it's like, people are finding value and meaning in it. So it becomes like, even more purposeful for me. So I was just like, bro, I'm blessed, bro. I can't complain about too much. 

[00:07:00] Dan Runcie: Was there ever a point that you did consider doing a more traditional record label deal? 

[00:07:07] Rexx Life Raj: Not really. I mean, we, I want to say a few years ago we took a few meetings with some bigger record labels, but I think my situation with EMPIRE, for me personally, is just, you know, it's ideal, you know? 'Cause I can move out when I want to move. I can kind of do what I want to do. There's no restrictions on me. You know, you hear stories about the majors. You're on a schedule, or you're shelved, or you can put out something. People have been waiting for, like, a year to put out music and, you know, it's such a big system that people get lost in it, you know what I'm saying? You're just banking on having somebody in a building that's rocking with you and you hear stories about those people leaving and now you just kind of, you know, up in the air. So it's like, you hear a lot of weird stories, but for me, the situation I'm in is just, it's solid. I can't, I can't speak on what happens down the road or if it makes sense, maybe it don't makes sense then, but for right now, it's like, what I have is pretty tight.

[00:08:00] Dan Runcie: I hear you on the weird stories. The one I keep hearing right now is people talking about the labels, trying to make them put out TikToks, right? Label wants them to put out a TikTok before they released the track, before they released the album. What do you think about that? 

[00:08:13] Rexx Life Raj: It's interesting, but I think about that a lot. It really makes me sad, you know what I'm saying? Like, when I really think about, like, but it makes me sad cause it's, like, if you're an artist and you don't want to do that, and that's kind of, like, 'cause some people have that persona and personality where it plays into that, you know, they're good at the internet.

[00:08:30] Rexx Life Raj: Some artists are really good at the internet, but I feel bad for the artists who just want to make music. And now they feel like they have to do Tiktok and be less organic and it don't feel right. Like, to me, that's not tight, but at the same time, it's a platform that's enabling so many up-and-coming creators because the algorithm over there is crazy.

[00:08:49] Rexx Life Raj: Like, I remember when I first got on TikTok, I had, like, 50, 70 followers who just followed me over to TikTok, but I will post things and they will go, like, fake viral, like 30,000 views, 40,000 when I only have 50 followers. So I'm like, it's a game that you have to play. Like, you can go over there and bullshit and fake go viral by accident, you know what I'm saying? But it's kinda like, it's kind of contingent upon the artists, but I see, you know, it needs encouragement on both sides., 

[00:09:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I think we're also still just so early that we're likely going to see more types of content that can be put out when someone puts out a TikTok, right? Because I feel like when it started, it was people doing these dances that are just in this like vertical screen.

[00:09:32] Dan Runcie: But, all right. They've expanded the timeframe. Like, it doesn't have to look like that. It reminds me of, like, when MTV first came out, you started to hear a little bit of that, right? Everyone thought it was just going to make people to these, like, phonies that just did these, like, Milli Vanilli dances and stuff like that, but then it, then it evolved. So I feel like that could still happen, right? Just 'cause like you said, the reach is so massive.

[00:09:55] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah. No, I think it's happening right now because I feel like from what I've learned in my experience is that fans, like, people who are fans of you are, who are becoming fans of you actually want to know you. And I feel like, you know, with TikTok, it's a place where you could be, you could be dancing and viral and all that, but you can really be personal and show people behind the scenes, like, I look like a LaRussell out of Vallejo. And he's really good at, like, at the internet period, but like, he's not really TikToking like playing a game, he's just getting on there and rapping, you know what I'm saying?

[00:10:28] Rexx Life Raj: And people are receptive to that 'cause there's a whole demographic who just want to hear people rap. So I think it's really about finding like a little niche, something that's comfortable for you, and understanding that, like, you're not making content for everybody in the world. You're making content for your people and finding your people. And like I said, knowing what's comfortable with you and you can win for sure. 

[00:10:48] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I agree with that, and that's a good example of that, right? Like, I was just reading an article, I was talking about, yeah, the platform's maturing and it's going to be more niches and the more niches, yeah, the less people that are going to want to see these standard TikTok dances, more people are going to want to see bars.

[00:11:04] Dan Runcie: They're going to want to see people wrap. So that's a good point there. Shifting gears though, I want to talk a little bit more about your album, The Blue Hour and what you have coming up. You have the trailer for it. You got the vlog. I really like how you've built up and had the rollout for it. Can you talk to me about the strategy or the plan for how you want it to execute that all?

[00:11:25] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, for me at this point, bro, cause I just understand like, everything is about content and it kind of goes back to what we were talking about with TikTok. Content is king, you know what I'm saying? And for me it's just, I want it to have as much content as possible. So I had the cameraman, you know, my boy filming all these sessions. And then, anytime I'll have a show, I have somebody film it or anytime I have ideas, it's, like, let's try to do this idea, you know what I'm saying? 'Cause the more content you have the better. And so it's just literally when I went into it, it's just like, bro, follow me with the camera and just get everything.

[00:11:59] Rexx Life Raj: Then it'll be shit in here that we could just slowly roll out and turn into a vlog. And then turn it into a documentary, like I'm actually shooting a real documentary right now that we're starting to drop trailers for, but it's just like, anytime there's a camera, turn it on, you know? 'Cause you could choose whether to put it on or put it out, you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's not like you have to put it out, but people want to see the process, like they want to hear the music, of course, but people want to see the process. They want to see how you create. They want to see the thinking behind it. They want to see who you're collaborating with.

[00:12:29] Rexx Life Raj: It just makes that connection to your fans I think that much stronger. So it's like when me, I'm just trying to involve them in as much of the process and my thinking as possible to really, you know, make them connect as much as possible. 

[00:12:41] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Do you ever feel any tension with that approach? Because I know I've heard from other artists where they feel like when the cameras are out, they need to do this stuff. It makes them feel like they're more of a marketer than they are an artist. And obviously, it's a combination of both. But how was that for you? Especially as, you know, you want to be in album mode, you know, you obviously have a concept that you want to be able to do purely from an artistic person.

[00:13:04] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, I don't really have that problem, right? And it might be, 'cause I did have the camera on me at this point for a while. You know what I'm saying? Like, I've always had people following me with cameras, but also it's like, I think, you know, if you have a good videographer, they're not all in your face with the camera, like they might ask you questions every now and then.

[00:13:20] Rexx Life Raj: But the people I work with, they're planning the cut. You know what I'm saying? It's like, they're almost not even in the room. To me, that's the best kind of cameraman. It's just like behind the speaker or you're not even paying attention to him. And he's kind of shooting you while you were in the booth 'cause it could be like a distraction. I think as soon as the camera comes on and you're very conscious of it, it changes everybody. Like, this conversation with us will be different if we weren't on camera, it'd probably be more candid. But since we know people are watching, like you kind of changed.

[00:13:47] Rexx Life Raj: So like, I think it's really just, like, having a good cameraman is just like, they're not really in the room. And then maybe after, you know, luckily I've had the camera videographers who are like, afterwards, they'll contextualize it. Like, they'll ask me a question or, like, let's elaborate on this afterwards. But during the process, it's really kind of like playing the clip and just recording.

[00:14:07] Dan Runcie: Right, that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. And I think for you as well, thinking about this album, specifically, a lot of the focus you're talking about grief, and you want to be able to not just process your own, but helping other people with it. Why was that an important focus for you with this album?

[00:14:25] Rexx Life Raj: For me, because I think my music is very much grounded in reality, in my real life. And I feel like for me, like this past year, year and a half was the most insane, impactful year I've personally ever had in my life. And I feel like there's no way that it wouldn't come out of me, you know what I'm saying? It's just, so much happened and there was so much emotion and everything built up in me and it came out in the music. And for me, it was almost like, you know, you went through all this shit and you felt all these feelings. There has to be a way that you can transmute this into something that can help people going through the same thing.

[00:15:04] Rexx Life Raj: And for me, music has always been like my favorite songs aren't really the turn-up songs. They're the songs that cut all the way, you know, I'm going through some shit or I need to cry or I'm in my feelings or something. And it's like knowing that music has that capacity and knowing that it could be that like music has helped me in times where I was going through whatever I was going through and knowing that I have the potential to do that.

[00:15:27] Rexx Life Raj: To me, it feels only right to put that into my music, because like I said, I've done songs where like Moxie Jova, Shit N' Floss where people turn up and it's crazy when I perform it. But then I do songs like Time where it hits people on almost like a spiritual level, not even almost, it is a spiritual level in that feeling.

[00:15:46] Rexx Life Raj: That's how I know this is my purpose 'cause I'm so attached to that feeling that people get where they're just like turning up and having fun. So it's like, I want it to create a space for people to be able to talk about grief, to be able to talk about it, especially for black men, because the experience is so much, but how we talk about it, like, with the homies, to me, it's kind of like crazy. Either we talk about it, very surface level, or we don't talk about it. And we hold these feelings in and we harbor it. And that's why for me, like, going back to everything outside of the music, the music is one thing, but my rollout has been to be focused on like, letting people know, like, yo it's okay to express these feelings if necessary, to talk about these things, you know what I'm saying? So that's kind of been my whole thing with this, with this album.

[00:16:31] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Yeah, I feel like this is generally gotten better over time where we are seeing more artists like yourself and others sharing their thoughts and being vulnerable. And I think we've seen it just more broadly in culture where people are becoming much more comfortable. And there is less of a stigma, especially with black men around checking out for your own mental health, being able to get awareness with things. But I still feel like there's plenty of room to grow with that. So you, of course, you know, not just using yourself as an example, but being able to communicate that through music is going to help a lot of people. I know you mentioned that the past year and a half has been tough and I'm sure that a lot of people could likely relate to that for their own respective reasons. So there's a timeliness here as well. And there are so many things happening that I feel like we've almost become immune to whether it's things happening our own life or things happening in society where no, it's helpful to pause because that doesn't happen as often as it should. And things just keep going and going. 

[00:17:40] Rexx Life Raj: Literally, man. I mean, for me too, it's like for people who don't know, just to kind of like give you a synopsis of what's going on. I lost both of my parents last year. I lost my mom in May, and then my dad in August and the majority of the album wasn't really right before my dad passed. So it is sort of three months right after my mom passed. And it's crazy because I remember something that she said to me that stuck with me, it's like, when she got diagnosed with cancer, we had a conversation and one of the things she said was no matter what happens to me, I know you'll, you'll do something good, like whether it be music or whether it be, you know, just you talking about it or whatever. She's like, I know something good comes from this. And I feel like one of the biggest things for me when it comes to grief is finding ways to honor the people you lost, right? So for me, it's like, the album honors her. Me talking about, you know, when I'm going through honors her and that's one of the biggest things for me, that's why I'm so open about it because it's like, yo, it's one thing to go to the cemetery or, you know, wherever your place is where you honor the people you lose.

[00:18:50] Rexx Life Raj: But to me, like, I want to take action in some way to honor my mom, you know what I'm saying? So that's kind of what all there is to me. 

[00:18:57] Dan Runcie: I mean, I could only imagine how you felt. It's so sad just losing both of them in such a short amount of time and obviously, this album has been a point of catharsis for you.

[00:19:08] Dan Runcie: I'm sure. Just the process. And like you mentioned a few of the things you've done as well, but what are some of the other ways that you've been able to the best that you can cope and manage your own stress and grief with the losses and any and everything else in your life. 

[00:19:22] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, man, music has really been a main thing cause it was really therapeutic for me, but I think being around friends and family, for me, and being able to talk about these things and cry when I need to in front of the homies and just get things out is important.

[00:19:35] Rexx Life Raj: I try to stay on top of like meditating. Like, I try to meditate two or three times a week, you know, I pray a lot, you know, anything that I could get these feelings out of me. One of the biggest things for me, it sounds funny, but it's the Peleton, you know what I'm saying? For me personally, when I'm going through anything, working out is such a stress reliever, you know what I'm saying?

[00:19:55] Rexx Life Raj: So I had got a Peloton right when my mom got sick and it was something that like any time I built up extra energy or anxiety in my body, I'll just go hop on the Peleton. And outside of me losing a little bit of weight, it just helped me mentally, you know, just working out. I'm really thankful for the Peloton, shout out to all the instructors and stuff on there.

[00:20:15] Rexx Life Raj: That's really tight, but yeah, just find a way to get it out of me. Like, I do all the little stuff. Like I journal a lot, you know what I'm saying? Anything that could get my thoughts out and just kind of figure out what's going on. 'Cause I feel like people have these things in their head, but when you write it down and you can reread it and really see what's going on in your mind, you can have better understanding of what you're going through.

[00:20:34] Rexx Life Raj: So I did this thing called morning pages, which at one point I was waking up every morning. So what you do is you wake up every morning and you just journal for like two or three pages, whatever comes to your mind, you know what I'm saying? Like, no matter what it could be, because when you first wake up, it would be shit like I'm tired.

[00:20:49] Rexx Life Raj: And I really don't feel like writing this. I didn't get a good night's sleep, but the more you write, the more real feelings and thoughts come out. And what happens is if you do it for a long enough period of time, you start to see consistencies and you're thinking in your feelings, right? So you might, for somebody who might be, you know, in a relationship, they keep having these problems in their relationship, and they noticed that they write about it every day, you know, or that you're having problems with your dad or your mom or something that keeps coming up. And what it allows you to do is see it like, yo, this thing keeps happening and then you have the choice to take action, because if it keeps happening and you don't take action, nothing's going to change.

[00:21:27] Rexx Life Raj: But by you writing it every day, like you've seen it seven days, seven days, it forces you to take action and you can clearly see what's going on in your life. So I really believe in that, I read that in a book called The Artist's Way. I highly recommend like that for any artists or anybody just in the creative realm for sure.

[00:21:44] Dan Runcie: That makes a lot of sense. And I've heard similar with people doing voice memos as well. You know, just being able to have that steady, consistent thing that you're putting out there because, yeah, over time it is going to be a reflection of where things are and just that habit of it's one thing to journal, but it's actually having a common practice with it.

[00:22:03] Dan Runcie: I'm sure that's been huge. And I could imagine that even some of that has been a helpful reflection for you as you were putting this album together as well. 

[00:22:11] Rexx Life Raj: For sure. It's crazy 'cause when I was going through, you know, basically being a caregiver for my parents, cause I was taking care of both of them. I didn't really have time to do music because I was so consumed and taking my mom to chemo or radiation.

[00:22:26] Rexx Life Raj: And then my dad, he was already sick. So I'll have to take him to dialysis and the Kaiser and I was, you know, cooking the meals and staying at the house, make sure everything is right. So I really was so overwhelmed with life that I didn't even have the capacity to do music, but what I always did was I have a, in my notes tab, I have a note just called life notes.

[00:22:48] Rexx Life Raj: So anytime something would happen, like, I'll have feelings, a lot of different feelings and emotions. I would just jot it down in the notes. So in my phone, I literally had, bro, just so many life notes because there's music in everything that songs and the conversations you have with people are songs. Like, these feelings that you feel, these experiences that you have can now be turned into music.

[00:23:10] Rexx Life Raj: So even when I couldn't necessarily make music, I was just taking notes. So when it became, like, after my mom passed and I started going back to the studio. Like, I had just so much to draw from, you know what I'm saying? So it's not like I had to sit and even think about now, what am I going to write about? What am I going to do?

[00:23:29] Rexx Life Raj: It's all in the notes. So it's like the album was written before it was written and it had to piece it together. 

[00:23:34] Dan Runcie: Right. That makes sense, right? It's like documenting the process, like, like anything. And I do think that just being able to have that likely helped the product of it, too. So, and I know that that was coming out soon. You're definitely excited about where things are heading.

[00:23:49] Dan Runcie: Do you have any particular milestones or goals that you have that you're trying to hit with this album? I know that you're not signed to a major record label, so some of those same types of things may not exist, but a lot of it may be a bit more on the personal side for what you have. Is there anything that you have that you're shooting for, that you have as a particular milestone?

[00:24:10] Rexx Life Raj: Not necessarily numbers-wise 'cause I feel like as soon as I do that, I can set myself up to not be happy if I don't hit those things. So I don't really be tripping off numbers. Like my thing, when it comes to numbers is as long as we're on the up and it's better than what we've been doing, then we're doing something right.

[00:24:26] Rexx Life Raj: But my whole goal and intention with this album was to help people who are going through what I was going through. Like, that's all I was thinking about. And I see it, you know, in the songs that I've released, my DMs be crazy with people who are either, you know, it's a lot of people in my DMs whose parents are ill right now.

[00:24:44] Rexx Life Raj: So they resonate with the music. It's even more people in my DMs who are going through grief. And the music is helping them process in any way. So to me, that's the win for me, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's the win is the music helping people navigate through life and shit. The numbers are just numbers and the numbers be fake a lot of times, like, you know, so I don't really be concerned about the numbers, you know what I'm saying?

[00:25:05] Rexx Life Raj: But for me, it's just being intentional in what I put into the music and just hoping that it resonates with people. 

[00:25:11] Dan Runcie: And it sounds like it already is, like you said, if you're having the folks of the DMs hitting you up and responding to it, that's great. And I got to imagine that being able to potentially see that impact in person at some point would likely be an ideal thing that I'm sure people would connect with as well. Are there plans to tour, do live shows after the album's released? 

[00:25:33] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, we already got the tour locked in toward the end of the year. I've got a few festivals, actually have a festival on Sunday. I just did one in Sacramento. So we got a lot of little festivals and shows coming up but the actual tour is set for the end of the year so I'm super excited.

[00:25:49] Dan Runcie: Nice. Do you prefer festival performances or do you prefer your own tour stops? 

[00:25:53] Rexx Life Raj: I prefer my own tour, you know what I'm saying? 'Cause what a festival, especially for artists at my level, you never really know how many people are there for you and it's tight because it's a bigger crowd so you can win new fans and festival experiences are always super fun, but like you alluded to earlier, just the connection that I've made with the people that I know I've made that connection with is different.

[00:26:17] Rexx Life Raj: You know what I'm saying? It's, it's spiritual. That's the only word I can have for it, bro. 'Cause I've had shows where, you know, I'll perform a song and people cry, you know what I'm saying? It's like they came for that song, you know what I'm saying? That came out of my brain and for whatever reason, it resonated with them.

[00:26:33] Rexx Life Raj: To me, that's just, you know, and to have people sing songs in unison. And it's just like a different type of connection when it's your own show, but festivals are tied to them. And I love festivals. 

[00:26:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I feel like, especially for independent artists, a mix in general is what people do thrive in. And I feel like that generally makes sense, but especially for independent artists, your career is already built on the long game and touring is a much longer game than a lot of festivals, right? Festivals, their upfront cash should be great. It could be bigger than what you may get from an initial stop, but like you said, you don't know if they're necessarily there for you, but you could be reaching out to new fans versus at a tour, even if the total audience may not be what it may be in that festival crowd, all those people are there to see you and you build on that and you're going there with the next album. And the one after that, like, that's where that long game is that lines up with that independent mentality. 

[00:27:29] Rexx Life Raj: Literally, man, and I'm happy you said that 'cause I be trying to preach that to, you know, any up and coming artist that asked me for advice. It's like, that's what I'm focused on. You know, the touring. That's what I look at. Like, even when, you know, everybody has a moment and niggas be laid on the internet and shit look cool. My first thought is like, can I sell tickets?

[00:27:48] Rexx Life Raj: Are they selling merch? 'Cause in real life, that's, what's going to sustain you. Like, have you built maybe another business or brand outside of yourself? Because the internet shit is cool, but real life is what's going, what gets you paid in the long term. So, yeah, I'm happy you said that. 

[00:28:05] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. I had this piece that had gotten some traction recently that was a breakdown on why your followers are not your fans and the followers, exactly, it's the internet shit that you're talking about, right? It just doesn't always line up. And we both know people that have millions, tens of millions of followers, but they can't sell when they actually go to show things and makes you question, okay, were all those true numbers, legit stream numbers and all those things? And you can't fake actually, to have actual bodies there, like watching you perform a concert. 

[00:28:38] Rexx Life Raj: It's the only thing you can't fake, man. That's what I'm saying. Like, the internet is really, but at the same time, like if you play the internet correctly, you can make money off the internet as well.

[00:28:47] Rexx Life Raj: Like, you know, don't get it twisted, like there's money to be made on the internet. But as far as sustainability, like, I've only seen it this way, you know what I'm saying? And like you said, everything can be manipulated. And even when it comes to numbers, like you can buy followers, you can buy comments, you can buy likes, but a lot of people will tune in for the spectacle, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's a lot of followers who are just like there for the show. Like, you're really good on the internet so we just want to watch you on the internet. But it never translates to anything real. It's like, that's why looking at engagement is such a big thing. Like, I'll look at the followers but then I'll look at how many comments, like I would be looking at that kind of shit. Like, how many comments he got? Like, how many people are really tapped in? What's the engagement like on all platforms?

[00:29:30] Rexx Life Raj: 'Cause that's how you can really tell. 'Cause it's been harder to, like, for instance, on Instagram, I think I got like 80,000 followers, right? But there's been artists who I've seen that had like 20,000 followers, 30,000 followers, even less, their engagement is way higher and they're selling way more tickets than me.

[00:29:47] Rexx Life Raj: And I'm like, damn, dude. Like, that's it. Cause you damn near made all your followers believe to the point where we following you not only on here, but we following you in real life to the stage, you know? And that's crazy to me. So yes, it's an interesting game for sure. 

[00:30:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that's a good example. I mean, you're seeing it that way because you see it the other way, too, people that, you know, you got tens of millions of followers and then less than a thousand people, like the last photo, what, like, no. 

[00:30:18] Rexx Life Raj: Something's not clicking. Something's ain't right. But, yeah, for sure.

[00:30:22] Dan Runcie: So you're the Bay Area, and of course we know there's a lot of tech investments happening out here. And I know that you are interested in things outside of directly making music as well. What does that side of things look like for you? Have you got involved in the investing side, looking at different startups and companies?

[00:30:40] Rexx Life Raj: I'm kind of tapping in 'cause I have friends who are really in that world. Like my girlfriend works for Facebook, so she's fully in it. One of my best friends, he works for Google, so he's fully in it. And then one of my good friends who I went to college with, Jason Robinson, he has a VR/AR software, it's called Playbook Five.

[00:31:00] Rexx Life Raj: And so he actually just did a pitch in Menlo park, Denver last weekend, pitching to investors. It's lit, it's really tight. Like, you put on the Oculus or whatever, and it's for kids to learn, like, kids in high school and middle school who are trying to play any sport in college. It teaches you all these schemes and game plans and everything you can learn through a software, but what's he trying to do is make it accredited. So say, like, they're trying to go to Cal to play football and Cal runs a three, four scheme on defense for the players who aren't like four or five stars who are getting directly looked at by the school. They can look at Playbook Five and be like, oh, let's check this kid out.

[00:31:37] Rexx Life Raj: He's fully accredited in our scheme. So they bring him in and he fully knows what's going on. And so like this, seeing the homies do stuff like that, you're automatically drawn into it because that shit is the future, you know what I'm saying? And then he's telling me like, like I said, how he's pitching and he's looking for investors. He's down in Austin 'cause he knows Bowman down there now and he's moving around. So I feel like this being out here, you get consolidated in that and you've learned shit on accident, you know what I'm saying? So I haven't actually invested in any companies, but I'm for sure, just like watching and learning the landscape as much as possible.

[00:32:09] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. You get up with E-40 at all? I haven't linked up with E-40 in a while, but anytime I hit E-40, he pick up and he chat with me, Gmail, like, real cool dude. Man, like I love E-40 'cause any, like I said, anytime I hit him and ask him for tips and wisdom. He's always there for me, if I need them on a song, he always did. So shout out to E-40. 

[00:32:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah. 'Cause like, think about the investment thing, I mean, obviously both in Vallejo and...

[00:32:34] Rexx Life Raj: He's the man. 

[00:32:35] Dan Runcie: He is the man. Anytime I see it, I'm like, I see his name everywhere. I'm almost surprised when I don't see him at certain deals now.

[00:32:42] Rexx Life Raj: E-40, he's going to sell you anything. He sells sausages. He sells lumpia. He got E Cuarenta Tequila. He got burritos now, the hood burritos at the store, like, when you think about entrepreneurship and just real rap independence, like, E-40 is the pinnacle, bro. Like, he's giving niggas the blueprint for so long and he's been doing it. That's what I'm saying. Like, pure longevity, you know, he's like, who's been doing this independent shit for as long as he has and has been that great at it?

[00:33:15] Rexx Life Raj: It's not too many people, you know what I'm saying? So shout out to E-40, man. He's been ahead of the game for a while. 

[00:33:20] Dan Runcie: And his products are good, too. I mean, we know that there's a lot of artists out there that have stuff that doesn't always click, but his Earl Stevens wine is award-winning, like, it has gotten a shout-out from all those like Napa and Sonoma County celebrations, whatever they call them.

[00:33:36] Rexx Life Raj: And it's gonna get you faded. I didn't, boy, I, like, take some of that and be, oh, like, oh God, E-40 is crazy! What is it called? 

[00:33:46] Dan Runcie: I know what you're talking about.

[00:33:48] Rexx Life Raj: Yeah, it ain't no joke, bro. You trying to get drunk, you gotta bring some of that. It's crazy. 

[00:33:54] Rexx Life Raj: Oh, man. That's wild. That's wild. But Raj, man, I'm excited for you. You got a lot to look forward to this year. Obviously, I know that a lot of it hasn't been the easiest, but when you're looking at the rest of this year, then also in 2023, what are you most excited about? What's getting you excited, looking forward to where things are heading and where you want to, where you want to take things? I'm just excited to drop the album and just see where it takes me, hit the road again, go to Europe, you know, do all the things that come with dropping the album, because I feel like for the last year and a half, I've really missed that.

[00:34:27] Rexx Life Raj: So just like everything that comes up on our music, you know, like, I think the next phase of my career is like really focusing, focusing on other artists from the Bay who I think I have a lot of potential and kind of like giving them game and wisdom and putting them on. So I'm working with, you know, a bunch of different artists in the Bay and just kind of focusing on them and giving them a shot 'cause it's, I think it's a Renaissance happening in the Bay, you know, in the underground music scene that not too many people know about. I feel like it's really coming to light and you get to see how diverse the music scene in the Bay is 'cause I feel like for a while we were just known really for one thing, one sound. But it's so much dope shit happening in the Bay, you know what I'm saying? Like, from bills like ‎Elujay, to, there's this singer in Vallejo, she's really tight, named Tyler Lauren. She's really cool. My brother, The Dakota Wytefoxx. Michael Sneed who's doing all that shit. My boy, JAMMY, you got, you know, I think her username is thuymusic. She's doing a lot of jazz. It's like, it's so much going on in the Bay, you know, and I'm happy to that it's actually in the light that it deserves at this point.

[00:35:30] Dan Runcie: I know, that's legit and thinking about all the activity, too, I'm sure you saw it as well. The Golden State Warriors started their own record label and I'm like, if there's any sign that there's something... 

[00:35:40] Rexx Life Raj: I did not know that.

[00:35:41] Dan Runcie: Oh, you didn't hear this?

[00:35:43] Rexx Life Raj: No, tell me about it. I did not know. They started a record label?

[00:35:46] Dan Runcie: Okay. I'll send you the link to it after we're done, but yeah. So the Golden State Warriors started a record label and they are planning to sign and support the artists that are local in the area, right? Like they want to invest in the talent here and using their arena and using the concerts that come through as a platform, maybe some of their own documentaries. They're trying to use that and use that as a platform to push these artists. 

[00:36:10] Rexx Life Raj: That's crazy. No, I did not know that. That's actually insane. That's tight though. That's interesting. I need to read the article because that's crazy. 

[00:36:17] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I'll send it to you. Yeah, because I actually just interviewed the guy that's running it, David Kelly. He's their Chief Business Officer over there. So yeah. I'll send you the link to that too.

[00:36:26] Rexx Life Raj: Dope, man. I appreciate that. That's clean. 

[00:36:29] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. But Raj, before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug or let the Trapital audience know about? 

[00:36:37] Rexx Life Raj: Man, I'm dropping The Blue Hour soon. Appreciate you having me, man. I appreciate anybody who's watching this who's been a fan of me for however long and, you know, stay tapped in, and I appreciate y'all. 

[00:36:48] Dan Runcie: Yes, sir. And where can people find you?

[00:36:49] Rexx Life Raj: Anywhere, man. Google. I'm on every platform, Rexx Life Raj, R-E-X-X-L-I-F-E-R-A-J. You know, if you know how to use the internet on your phone, you can find me. I'm everywhere, man.

[00:37:05] Dan Runcie: That sounds good, man. 

[00:37:07] Rexx Life Raj: All right, man. I appreciate you. 

[00:37:09] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2329 no Why the Golden State Warriors Launched a Record Label https://www.trapital.com/podcast The Golden State Warriors took the commonly-said phrase “every company is a media company” and did one better, launching a first-of-its-kind organization, Golden State Entertainment (GSE). Leading this brand-new entertainment company is Warriors’ chief business officer David Kelly, who joined me on this episode of the Trapital podcast to discuss the brand-new endeavor.  While GSE is an extension of the Warriors brand, it wasn’t created with the sole purpose of advancing the NBA team. It’s a completely separate company (not a division) and as Kelly told me, it needs to be profitable. To do so, GSE will produce original documentaries, music, and events. Announced in April 2022, GSE has wasted no time breaking into the entertainment space. It’s already inked deals with iconic acts like Rhymefest and No I.D., released a song with K-pop star BamBam, and announced a documentary around Bay Area’s own Jeremy Lin. The Warriors are building a sports, entertainment, media, and technology company in front of us and this interview shines light into the entertainment piece. Here’s everything David and I covered in this episode: [3:10] How The Golden State Warriors Got Into Music & Film [5:34] Measuring Success For GSE Record Label [7:05] Synergy Opportunities With NBA Team [8:11] What’s An Artist Deal At GSE Look Like? [9:32] Why Rhymefest & No I.D. Joined GSE  [14:55] Crypto’s Influence On Golden State & NBA Naming Rights Deals [16:52] What Type Of Projects GSE Is Pursuing [21:22] Why Can’t GSE Do A Steph Curry Documentary Until He’s Retired? [23:13] Is There A New Era Of Documentaries? [25:07] Upcoming GSE Projects Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: David Kelly, @goldenstateent   This episode was brought to you by Highlight. Build the community of your dreams on the blockchain. The new company is backed by leading investors like Haun Ventures, Thirty Five Ventures (“35V”), and more. Learn more at highlight.xyz     Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] David Kelly: We don't want to limit ourselves to only doing Warrior stories. We're not going to limit ourselves, even you know only doing basketball stories. We want to do, and I don't think we're even going to ultimately limit ourselves to just do sports stories. We want to do stories that are relevant and resonate and have most likely some sort of sports tied to them. [00:00:18] David Kelly: But if it's a story that we think we can facilitate the telling of the story, and there's a place for us at that table, and, if not for our participation, the story maybe doesn't get told then we'll be involved.  [00:00:29] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:57] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is David Kelly. He's the Chief Business Officer and Chief Legal Officer of the Golden State Warriors. And he's the head of the new Golden State Entertainment, which has focused on music, media and more. That's right. The Golden State Warriors are starting a record label. Believe me, when I heard this, I paused what I was doing, and I said, "Okay, I got to learn more. Tell me everything." And it was great to have David on to hear more about it. A lot of the inspiration for the record label came from David's own experience in hip hop. He was an artist himself, Capital D. We talked about how his journey through music influenced what he saw the platform for, of this team and ultimately the opportunities that they could provide for artists. [00:01:41] Dan Runcie: They also have some great vets in the game that have jumped on board. No I.D. is an advisor to Golden State Entertainment, as well as Rhymefest who was signed on to join the record label himself. You may know both of them from their relationship with Kanye West and the work and influence he's done there. [00:01:58] Dan Runcie: And David's old relationship with Rhymefest, too. So this was great to chat about. And we also talked about some of the potential projects coming down the pipeline. They're actually working on a project telling the story of Jeremy Lin, who is a Bay Area native and especially around everything that happened with Linsanity We're coming up on the decade anniversary of that and the influence he had on his New York Knicks run. [00:02:21] Dan Runcie: And we talk about what some of those future projects may look like. We also talk about some of the trends happening right now with naming rights and all of the cryptocurrencies and Web 3.0 companies that are fighting for naming rights, both inside and outside of the arenas as well. This is a fun chat. [00:02:37] Dan Runcie: And if you're interested in how teams like the Warriors, a team that is worth nearly $6 billion, how are they thinking about things and using their platform? This is the episode for you had a great chat. Hope you enjoy it. Here's my talk with David Kelly. [00:02:52] Dan Runcie: All right. Today, we have David Kelly, head of Golden State Entertainment, which recently launched a record label. Congratulations. And let's actually start there. When did you first get the idea to start a record label for an NBA basketball team?  [00:03:10] David Kelly: Yeah, so it's, it's funny. So, I mean, the company is two parts. [00:03:13] David Kelly: We're doing film and we're doing music as well. And so the idea has been something that's been kicking around in my head for maybe three years now. And it really came from conversations with our ownership group around what we want to create as the Golden State Warriors. Like we see ourselves as a sports team, but really a sports entertainment media technology company. [00:03:32] David Kelly: And it's up to me to try to figure out, all of us at the Warriors, to figure out what that really means and what kind of skills we can bring to bear on creating that larger vision so that to make it a reality. And so I thought about like what we do on the marketing side and what we do as a sports team, like we create stories, we create content. [00:03:51] David Kelly: And then I thought about my own personal background in the music front. And I always saw myself as a content creator storyteller. And I started thinking about how can we bridge these two worlds? And so just over time, it's just the idea started becoming more and more apparent that this is something that we can be doing as the Golden State Warriors, and we, you know, there's this ancillary markets that are close, very close to sports, specifically to basketball. and we can create content in that space, whether it's film and/or music, so.  [00:04:20] Dan Runcie: And I feel like your background, as well as an artist, Capital D, you had an experience that you understand exactly what it takes and the nuances of the music industry. So I feel like that as well, likely had a, as you mentioned, a pretty big influence on wanting to bring this to life.  [00:04:39] David Kelly: It did. I mean, in a lot of ways, it's kind of aligning my passions and my background, my experiences into just bringing it all into even greater alignment and, with the platform of the Golden State Warriors platform that the NBA provides and being able to take who I am and really, really of dig into it and align it. [00:05:00] Dan Runcie: Right. And then for the record label itself, let's talk a little bit about that. What do you see as success for the record label? How will you measure that? Because I'm sure that some people could maybe think that you obviously have a very successful basketball team itself. Is this something more that extends the brand and gets more customers in? Or is it something that, you know, stand alone, does have its own benchmarks for profitability or some of the other things looking at how other record labels may manage themselves?  [00:05:34] David Kelly: Yeah, so we want to, it's both. It definitely is an extension of the brand and it's good for the Golden State Warrior brand. It's already paying dividends there, but it's a separate company that has it's, it's not like a division of the Warriors. This is a separate company that we launched. [00:05:48] David Kelly: And it needs to be a profitable company and we're going to run it as such. In addition, we want to make sure that we're having an impact with the art that we put out, with the music they'll be put out and we want it to be relevant. We want it to speak to issues. We want it to inspire people. And so it's nothing new for a record label to be focused on that, but because we are attached to a separate organization, a separate team, it needs to all be consistent with our mission as Golden State Warriors. And so what we do all has to, it's that word alignment again. It all has to be aligned. So, yeah, so we're going to make some money. [00:06:25] David Kelly: We're going to do dope projects. We're going to have an impact. And it's all going to speak to the benefit of the Golden State Warrior brand.  [00:06:33] Dan Runcie: I'm envisioning some type of opportunities, just leveraging the platform you already have, whether that's, at halftime artists that assigned to the label coming out and being able to perform their, they have a platform or on the other side, as artists are performing at the Chase Center, being able to feature them as headliners for some of the A-list acts that come through. [00:06:55] Dan Runcie: I feel like you having that, and then you also have the channel as well. Just being able to leverage each of these things to amplify the voice of the platform you have.  [00:07:05] David Kelly: Check, check, check. So, yes. So at game two in the series against Memphis, actually it was game four, the second home game in our, in the series against Memphis. [00:07:16] David Kelly: MAYZIN, who's the first artist who got signed, who signed to Golden State Entertainment, he performed at halftime in that game. And so, so yes, what you envision is, already come into pass. And in fact, the very, before we had even announced Golden State Entertainment, we had BamBam, performed at halftime right before we released the song by MAYZIN and BamBam. I mean, that was our last home game of the season against the Lakers. So yes, we definitely want to use that. We already bring talent in, artists in to perform. And so, yeah, we should be using the same sort of, the same homegrown talent that we have at GSE and finding these new ways to get exposure for artists who are affiliated with.  [00:07:56] Dan Runcie: And for the artists listening that may be interested, I know where in this era where a lot of artists want to own their masters. They want to be able to have their own flexibility. Well, what does some of that look like for the artists that would be considering GSE?  [00:08:11] David Kelly: Well, so I'm not going to get into the finer deal points that we have, but like something like, BamBam. Bambam was with this group called GOT7, obviously, right? And then he went solo. We did a song with BamBam. Bambam is not signed to Golden State Entertainment, right? He has his own career as an independent artist, huge following. So we can align ourselves with any number of artists who are not signed to our label. [00:08:36] David Kelly: And so I think that's something different than your typical record label in that we have this platform that the Golden State Warriors that has his own benefit that we bring to major artists to, to larger artists. And we have something that I think that's already attractive to an artist. So it doesn't have to be a long-term deal necessarily instead of every instance that we, that we're doing a partnership or collaboration with an artist, so.  [00:09:00] Dan Runcie: And to that point, the connections and a lot of that is what makes the difference even when people see and understand the brand, or you had Too $hort performing at game one of the Western Conference finals, E-40's courtside at all of these games, like you have the culture that's there so I do think that you have that. [00:09:19] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. One of the other things I saw too, is that you all have Rhymefest who, of course, is an established artist himself, long-time collaborator with Kanye West. What did that relationship look like and getting him on board?  [00:09:32] David Kelly: Yeah. So Rhymefest is like family. So that, that is a friend of mine going back 30 years. And when I think about, we're trying to build GSE, who do I want to align ourselves with from a brand perspective? When I think about one of the best writers that we have in hip hop over the past several decades, someone who actually has been an activist in his life still very, you know, very wise and very relevant at the same time, people like Rhymefest come to mind. And so that's where that kind of collaboration came from. [00:10:06] David Kelly: And No I.D., the same way, right? Like this is your OGs' OG when it comes to knowledge of the industry, knowledge of executive coaching. Someone who can help me just in terms of, trying to really run and build Golden State Entertainment. So to have him as a strategic advisor, also as a cultural advisor and producer, like there's no better person. And so, yeah, and those are just relationships from, you know, both of those guys are like family, so.  [00:10:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's great. That's great. And then are there any partnerships right now on the major record label side, or is it mostly an independent operation?  [00:10:46] David Kelly: Independent at the moment, who knows what the future might bring. But I'm independent at the moment. We have a distribution agreement, so we go through a distributor like your typical indie label would what would do, and we go from there.  [00:10:58] Dan Runcie: Nice. And something else you mentioned, taking a step back, looking at GSE more broadly, you mentioned the tech side and I always thought a lot about the rise of tech in the bay area, along with the rise of Golden State Warriors, just when they were in that run 2015 on with Steph, Klay, and Draymond, and we had heard so much about the investments that they were getting involved with. [00:11:23] Dan Runcie: I think this is a lot of what attracted KD. I know that Andre Iguodala and Steph had done work with Mastry and Rudy Cline-Thomas, and what he's done there. So, a lot of that at least to be seemed like the area brought them there, but they were each doing their own separate things. So it's interesting to hear what you may have alluded to in terms of the GSE in the Warriors itself, doing a bit more directly on the investment side. [00:11:49] David Kelly: Yeah. And so on the investment side, as it relates to tech, it's less GSE and more just the Golden State Warriors. And we have a separate arm that looks at various different tech investments. So that's separate from GSE. GSE is on the content front, film and music. But when we talk about us being a sports entertainment, media, and technology organization, we are as an, as a larger organization, that Golden State Warriors looking to make various different tech investments. The background of members of our ownership group, specifically, Joe Lacob, a fantastically successful venture capitalist. And so like he knows what he's doing when it comes to looking at those sorts of investments.  [00:12:27] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. [00:12:30] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Especially the past few years, I feel like there's so many teams as well that have either been getting more involved with crypto, where the rights for naming, with a lot of the crypto companies sponsoring arenas as well. And I know that some of that, you're also the Chief Business Officer for the organization too. What does that wave been like at least from your perspective when you're seeing some of the companies that want to, whether it's naming rights or wanting to be able to partner with the team on a more direct basis? [00:13:02] David Kelly: Yeah. I mean, so we're always looking to be at the forefront of new, innovative, whether it's technologies, ways of doing business. And so I see that world for the Golden State Warriors connects to what we'd have done in, in the NFT space. And we actually, we have a partnership ourselves with FTX. And so we were, I think the very first sports team to do an NFT drop around this time last year. [00:13:27] David Kelly: And so I do not, by any means, consider myself to be an expert in that space, but we, as an organization, want to make sure that we're on the cutting edge and innovative, and we have a number of people at the organization who are experts in that space and guide our hand in terms of looking into different companies with which we'll push to partner in ways in which to invest in, in Web 3.0 and NFTs and things of that nature, so. [00:13:49] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I guess on this note, thinking about naming rights more broadly, I know that the Chase Center had signed the deal with Kaiser. You, of course, have Thrive City and naming that through them. And then with the Chase Center as well, obviously with Chase too, it feels like every few years we do go through these waves where a lot of the teams do start to change or they do start to re-up their things. And I feel like the past couple of years, we've been in one of those modes now. Does it feel that way from your perspective, or do you feel like these things are constantly changing?  [00:14:24] David Kelly: When you say one of one of those modes now, can you elaborate what you mean? [00:14:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So I feel like in the past couple of years, especially the NBA, there's been a lot of teams, either, A, changing their naming rights to crypto-related companies that like things that are reflecting the current wave, or maybe the same thing with their outdoor space. And I know a lot of these things may change from time and time again, but I feel like the past, like, two, three years, we saw a wave. It felt like there was a lot more turnover than maybe there was in the three years or four years before that.  [00:14:55] David Kelly: Yeah, I think that may be more coincidence. I think those things go cyclical. And so you'll have your naming rights deal, whether it's for an outdoor space or for the arena itself, your 10- year deal or 20- year deal. [00:15:07] David Kelly: And just when those deals come up, they come up. And so I haven't talked to my counterparts at the other teams about it, but I'm pretty sure that those new deals that you're seeing are, they're as, a legacy deal that just happened to expire sometime over the last couple of years. And yes the crypto space is very hot right now. [00:15:25] David Kelly: So you'll see, you know, crypto arena and things of that nature, definitely jumping in and using sports properties, specifically arenas as a way to promote their product. And so you'll see a lot more arenas being named in the crypto space, but I don't think that the number of partnerships that have changed hands over the last couple of years is increased. [00:15:44] David Kelly: I don't think that's the case. You've just probably would see more concentration inside of that particular, with that particular industry.  [00:15:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think maybe the other side of it too, is that because at least from my perspective, we're seeing more of the outdoor spaces as well. Like having those and maybe a bit more valid. [00:16:01] Dan Runcie: I think I recently saw that the box area, they call it Deer District. They're looking for $4 billion for the naming rights for that. And I mean, sure, other teams are seeing that. I mean, you already have yours with Warriors. I'm sure other teams will see that, okay, like how could we get our version of that? [00:16:17] David Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. We named our entire plaza as Thrive City. And so, yeah, so we sold naming rights with respect to the arena as Chase Center. And then, sold naming rights with respect to the entire district as Thrive City. And so, yeah, so similar things happening with other teams.  [00:16:31] Dan Runcie: Got it. So shifting gears a bit, I want to talk a bit more about the other multimedia areas of GSE. So outside of music, we talked a bit about movies. You talked about what it could look like. It’s just like film and video in general. What does that outlook look like? What are you envisioning for the type of projects you can release?  [00:16:52] David Kelly: Yeah, so we want to be involved in projects that are rooted in sports. By no means are they limited by sports, right? And so one of the first projects, and our involvement can be any number of things. We could be a producer. We might come to the table with the script, with the entirety of the idea. There might be a project that's already moving forward and it just kinda needs us to make some connections and, and help to facilitate and so we could be putting money in not putting money in, lending our platform, any number, any number of things. And so, but one of the first projects that we got involved with was a project that was already moving forward, called 38 At the Garden about Jeremy Lin. We came in to help facilitate the production of that project. [00:17:31] David Kelly: And it really is a, it's exactly what it is we want to be doing on the film side at GSE. It's a story that's rooted in sports. It's the 10 year anniversary of Linsanity, but the true relevance of the project and why it speaks to us, and why I think it's going to speak to so many people, it's premiering at Tribeca in a couple of weeks, is because, more recently, the Stop AAPI Hate Movement and the violence against members of the Asian American community makes Jeremy Lin's story that much more relevant. And there's, so there's a social relevance to his story, which is why it really appeals to us. So we want to be telling stories that are rooted in sports, but have a larger social component to them. [00:18:11] David Kelly: And so Lin, Jeremy Lin's story is specifically that. And so, yeah, we're proud to be a part of it. [00:18:15] Dan Runcie: That makes sense, especially given the connection there because I think that some people may hear the association immediately, they may think, okay, well, he's a New York Knick. How did the Golden State Warriors get involved with the project for the New York Knicks? [00:18:28] Dan Runcie: Like, wouldn't the Madison Square Garden, or their, entertainment group be all over this? But what was the process like for that? Because I do assume that that is something that they would want to be heavily involved with, or maybe even potentially protective of. [00:18:43] David Kelly: Well, to be clear, he's from the Bay Area. And his first shot in the NBA was with the Warriors and his last shot in the NBA was with the Warriors. [00:18:51] David Kelly: So, our stories, we do not have to, we're not only going to be involved in stories that are Golden State Warriors stories, but for Jeremy, there are several Golden State Warrior ties, which is why it was something that we were very much focused on him and his story. We don't want to limit ourselves to only doing warrior stories. We're not going to limit ourselves even, you know, only doing basketball stories we want to do. And I don't think we're even going to ultimately limit ourselves to just do sports stories. We want to do stories that are relevant and resonate and have most likely some sort of sports tied to them. [00:19:24] David Kelly: But if it's a story that we think we can facilitate the telling of the story, and there's a place for us at that table, and if not for our participation, the story, maybe doesn't get told then. we'll be involved  [00:19:36] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I assume this also extends with scripted content as well, whether that is, you know, movies and films and things like that. [00:19:43] David Kelly: Yeah. we are starting off in the unscripted space, but we do not want to limit ourselves, put it that way. I think there's a lot that we can bring to bear whether on those unscripted or scripted side.  [00:19:52] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Thinking about your team though, and thinking about some of the stories you have potential for, a few things come to mind that I think would be amazing to see if there was something about it, that "We Believe" Warriors, that run. We'd love to see something like that. That's one of them, the other one that comes to mind is what would the Warriors' version of a Last Dance look like, right? Like we obviously have to see how this playoff run goes, but what would that look like? [00:20:21] Dan Runcie: I mean, I have to imagine that there's been some type of recording that has footage, that hasn't already been broadcast about everything from a, likely even well before that year you won the championship because this core group had been together for so long.  [00:20:35] David Kelly: You have a very vivid imagination. [00:20:40] Dan Runcie: Well played,well played.  [00:20:42] David Kelly: Yeah, yeah, I agree. Let's just say that.  [00:20:46] Dan Runcie: Well, the one thing that you can comment on, which I saw and you can correct me if I got this right, but I saw something that said that GSE couldn't do a documentary on Steph Curry until he retires because of the League's collective bargaining agreement. [00:21:03] Dan Runcie: And when I first saw this, I had to pause and think about it because I was like, I thought that Steph had had stuff with Facebook, I thing, one of those shows. I think him and Ayesha have that HBO show. What is the aspect that makes it that he could do stuff with them, but you all couldn't do something like this? [00:21:22] David Kelly: Yeah. So, I mean, it seems a little, it doesn't seem intuitive, but when you think about it actually does make sense. So if we're paying, the salary cap is such that we can't pay Steph more than X dollars, so we can pay them X dollars in terms of his contract. But then we can go do a movie with him that's going to make X plus Y or X or 3X dollars. [00:21:43] David Kelly: The League will look at that and the other 29 teams will look at that as a salary cap and salary cap circumvention. And so I get it. It makes, it actually does make sense. It protects us the same way, protects all the teams. And so, yeah, you can't have your separate deals under the table deals with a player where you're driving revenue to that player outside of his player contract. [00:22:03] Dan Runcie: Okay. That makes sense. So, because it's still technically part of the broader organization, that's why versus obviously Facebook is completely independent. Okay.  [00:22:13] David Kelly: Yeah.  [00:22:13] Dan Runcie: Interesting.  [00:22:15] David Kelly: So it's not to say that the player can't go out and make, you know, 5X, his player, his salary, more often times 10, 20X his playing contract. It just can't come from the team. [00:22:24] Dan Runcie: Got it. That makes sense. And maybe one thing that you may be able to comment on that I've been thinking about, especially just given the era that we're in now with how much more is being recorded, every person has their own channel to share things, whether that's Steph or a Draymond or whoever it is. I feel like that may make the filmmaking of a future Warriors-run documentary a little different than something like say The Last Dance when content and media was just less saturated then. So the footage and the concept they were able to have stands out in a unique way. [00:22:59] Dan Runcie: Does that shape overall, at least at this era, how you may approach documentary projects or what the unique angle may be given all of the opportunities for these players and for other outlets to be able to share their voice?  [00:23:13] David Kelly: Oh, it does. It does. It changes it. In some ways it makes the player a lot more known and relevant and universal. [00:23:21] David Kelly: I mean, if you think, if you look at a player like Draymond, who has been able to, he's a personality on TNT. He has his own podcast and he's phenomenal inside of all that, all the different venues that he's in, it makes them a lot more. It makes him a lot more marketable. And so that could be a very good thing for when we're trying to do, if we might try to do a, and make our version of The Last Dance documentary, right? Cause I think that, you know, there are still stories to be told. There is still the definitive story to be told. And so I don't think that it necessarily detracts from what it is that we're trying to do. I think one can build upon the other. Maybe we have to look at it differently in some of the stories that we're gonna maybe tell are going to be a little bit different than stories that you may have already heard as a listener.  [00:24:06] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I think in a lot of ways, the fact that there is more means there's so much more to build upon. I think back to last year. So this would have been 2021 when Draymond and Kevin Durant had had that Bleacher report conversation they had, and it created enough buzz to create a moment, at least for people that follow the NBA. [00:24:25] Dan Runcie: And you got two people that were just sharing their thoughts on one particular aspect of, you know, not one particular aspect, but one of the main things surrounding that discussion was one of the infamous interactions that they had had. So I think that those things do, like you're saying they build upon each other and they create new opportunities to tell and share these stories. [00:24:45] David Kelly: That's right. I agree.  [00:24:46] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That makes sense. Well, this has been great. I think it's exciting. You have a lot of stuff that's, we're definitely going to keep an eye on and I guess before we let you go though, are there any future GSE projects that you're excited about or anything that we haven't touched upon? Or as you're thinking about what the future looks like, where the potential is at, where things are going? [00:25:07] David Kelly: I mean, there's a number of film projects that we're working on right now. Not in a position to announce anything yet, but we, there may, there's another one that we're working on with respect to, a retired basketball player, probably gets announced over the next month or so. And when that comes out, you know exactly what I'm, talking about. What we have announced are some of, is the lineup that we have on the music side. And so I'm really excited for people to hear this new J.U.I.C.E. project and a couple of projects that we have with Georgia Anne Muldrow, because those are two legacy artists who I think have not received their just due in their careers. [00:25:41] David Kelly: And I think there's an underground, hardcore support that they have. And we're just looking to see if we can expand upon that because I think Georgia Anne is the Nina Simone of our generation, like she is, her voice and her ability to produce and sing and, and her viewpoint on the world is just something that would just love to be aligned with. [00:26:01] David Kelly: I love listen to and be aligned with. And so I'm really excited about that project.  [00:26:04] Dan Runcie: Nice. Any plans in audio, not music-related, podcasting.  [00:26:10] David Kelly: We've kicked some things around. Yeah. We've kicked some things around, nothing that's concrete at the moment, but you know, we're, we are aware of all the various different mediums. [00:26:19] David Kelly: And so we're looking to see how it is that we might be able to do storytelling be all on different media.  [00:26:25] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. Looking forward to it. Well, David, this is great. Thanks for coming on and chatting. Before we let you go, where can people find you or find the GSE if they want to follow up and keep up to tabs with everything that you have coming? [00:26:39] David Kelly: Yeah, so, we're going to start doing a much better job updating our website. So our website is gsent.com and we're also on Twitter and on Instagram as well.  [00:26:49] Dan Runcie: All right, sounds good. Thank you. This was great.  [00:26:52] David Kelly: Hey, appreciate it, man. This was great. [00:26:54] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 27 May 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Why the Golden State Warriors Launched a Record Label full Dan Runcie The Golden State Warriors took the commonly-said phrase “every company is a media company” and did one better, launching a first-of-its-kind organization, Golden State Entertainment (GSE). Leading this brand-new entertainment company is Warriors’ chief business officer David Kelly, who joined me on this episode of the Trapital podcast to discuss the brand-new endeavor.  While GSE is an extension of the Warriors brand, it wasn’t created with the sole purpose of advancing the NBA team. It’s a completely separate company (not a division) and as Kelly told me, it needs to be profitable. To do so, GSE will produce original documentaries, music, and events. Announced in April 2022, GSE has wasted no time breaking into the entertainment space. It’s already inked deals with iconic acts like Rhymefest and No I.D., released a song with K-pop star BamBam, and announced a documentary around Bay Area’s own Jeremy Lin. The Warriors are building a sports, entertainment, media, and technology company in front of us and this interview shines light into the entertainment piece. Here’s everything David and I covered in this episode: [3:10] How The Golden State Warriors Got Into Music & Film [5:34] Measuring Success For GSE Record Label [7:05] Synergy Opportunities With NBA Team [8:11] What’s An Artist Deal At GSE Look Like? [9:32] Why Rhymefest & No I.D. Joined GSE  [14:55] Crypto’s Influence On Golden State & NBA Naming Rights Deals [16:52] What Type Of Projects GSE Is Pursuing [21:22] Why Can’t GSE Do A Steph Curry Documentary Until He’s Retired? [23:13] Is There A New Era Of Documentaries? [25:07] Upcoming GSE Projects Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: David Kelly, @goldenstateent   This episode was brought to you by Highlight. Build the community of your dreams on the blockchain. The new company is backed by leading investors like Haun Ventures, Thirty Five Ventures (“35V”), and more. Learn more at highlight.xyz     Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] David Kelly: We don't want to limit ourselves to only doing Warrior stories. We're not going to limit ourselves, even you know only doing basketball stories. We want to do, and I don't think we're even going to ultimately limit ourselves to just do sports stories. We want to do stories that are relevant and resonate and have most likely some sort of sports tied to them. [00:00:18] David Kelly: But if it's a story that we think we can facilitate the telling of the story, and there's a place for us at that table, and, if not for our participation, the story maybe doesn't get told then we'll be involved.  [00:00:29] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:57] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is David Kelly. He's the Chief Business Officer and Chief Legal Officer of the Golden State Warriors. And he's the head of the new Golden State Entertainment, which has focused on music, media and more. That's right. The Golden State Warriors are starting a record label. Believe me, when I heard this, I paused what I was doing, and I said, "Okay, I got to learn more. Tell me everything." And it was great to have David on to hear more about it. A lot of the inspiration for the record label came from David's own experience in hip hop. He was an artist himself, Capital D. We talked about how his journey through music influenced what he saw the platform for, of this team and ultimately the opportunities that they could provide for artists. [00:01:41] Dan Runcie: They also have some great vets in the game that have jumped on board. No I.D. is an advisor to Golden State Entertainment, as well as Rhymefest who was signed on to join the record label himself. You may know both of them from their relationship with Kanye West and the work and influence he's done there. [00:01:58] Dan Runcie: And David's old relationship with Rhymefest, too. So this was great to chat about. And we also talked about some of the potential projects coming down the pipeline. They're actually working on a project telling the story of Jeremy Lin, who is a Bay Area native and especially around everything that happened with Linsanity We're coming up on the decade anniversary of that and the influence he had on his New York Knicks run. [00:02:21] Dan Runcie: And we talk about what some of those future projects may look like. We also talk about some of the trends happening right now with naming rights and all of the cryptocurrencies and Web 3.0 companies that are fighting for naming rights, both inside and outside of the arenas as well. This is a fun chat. [00:02:37] Dan Runcie: And if you're interested in how teams like the Warriors, a team that is worth nearly $6 billion, how are they thinking about things and using their platform? This is the episode for you had a great chat. Hope you enjoy it. Here's my talk with David Kelly. [00:02:52] Dan Runcie: All right. Today, we have David Kelly, head of Golden State Entertainment, which recently launched a record label. Congratulations. And let's actually start there. When did you first get the idea to start a record label for an NBA basketball team?  [00:03:10] David Kelly: Yeah, so it's, it's funny. So, I mean, the company is two parts. [00:03:13] David Kelly: We're doing film and we're doing music as well. And so the idea has been something that's been kicking around in my head for maybe three years now. And it really came from conversations with our ownership group around what we want to create as the Golden State Warriors. Like we see ourselves as a sports team, but really a sports entertainment media technology company. [00:03:32] David Kelly: And it's up to me to try to figure out, all of us at the Warriors, to figure out what that really means and what kind of skills we can bring to bear on creating that larger vision so that to make it a reality. And so I thought about like what we do on the marketing side and what we do as a sports team, like we create stories, we create content. [00:03:51] David Kelly: And then I thought about my own personal background in the music front. And I always saw myself as a content creator storyteller. And I started thinking about how can we bridge these two worlds? And so just over time, it's just the idea started becoming more and more apparent that this is something that we can be doing as the Golden State Warriors, and we, you know, there's this ancillary markets that are close, very close to sports, specifically to basketball. and we can create content in that space, whether it's film and/or music, so.  [00:04:20] Dan Runcie: And I feel like your background, as well as an artist, Capital D, you had an experience that you understand exactly what it takes and the nuances of the music industry. So I feel like that as well, likely had a, as you mentioned, a pretty big influence on wanting to bring this to life.  [00:04:39] David Kelly: It did. I mean, in a lot of ways, it's kind of aligning my passions and my background, my experiences into just bringing it all into even greater alignment and, with the platform of the Golden State Warriors platform that the NBA provides and being able to take who I am and really, really of dig into it and align it. [00:05:00] Dan Runcie: Right. And then for the record label itself, let's talk a little bit about that. What do you see as success for the record label? How will you measure that? Because I'm sure that some people could maybe think that you obviously have a very successful basketball team itself. Is this something more that extends the brand and gets more customers in? Or is it something that, you know, stand alone, does have its own benchmarks for profitability or some of the other things looking at how other record labels may manage themselves?  [00:05:34] David Kelly: Yeah, so we want to, it's both. It definitely is an extension of the brand and it's good for the Golden State Warrior brand. It's already paying dividends there, but it's a separate company that has it's, it's not like a division of the Warriors. This is a separate company that we launched. [00:05:48] David Kelly: And it needs to be a profitable company and we're going to run it as such. In addition, we want to make sure that we're having an impact with the art that we put out, with the music they'll be put out and we want it to be relevant. We want it to speak to issues. We want it to inspire people. And so it's nothing new for a record label to be focused on that, but because we are attached to a separate organization, a separate team, it needs to all be consistent with our mission as Golden State Warriors. And so what we do all has to, it's that word alignment again. It all has to be aligned. So, yeah, so we're going to make some money. [00:06:25] David Kelly: We're going to do dope projects. We're going to have an impact. And it's all going to speak to the benefit of the Golden State Warrior brand.  [00:06:33] Dan Runcie: I'm envisioning some type of opportunities, just leveraging the platform you already have, whether that's, at halftime artists that assigned to the label coming out and being able to perform their, they have a platform or on the other side, as artists are performing at the Chase Center, being able to feature them as headliners for some of the A-list acts that come through. [00:06:55] Dan Runcie: I feel like you having that, and then you also have the channel as well. Just being able to leverage each of these things to amplify the voice of the platform you have.  [00:07:05] David Kelly: Check, check, check. So, yes. So at game two in the series against Memphis, actually it was game four, the second home game in our, in the series against Memphis. [00:07:16] David Kelly: MAYZIN, who's the first artist who got signed, who signed to Golden State Entertainment, he performed at halftime in that game. And so, so yes, what you envision is, already come into pass. And in fact, the very, before we had even announced Golden State Entertainment, we had BamBam, performed at halftime right before we released the song by MAYZIN and BamBam. I mean, that was our last home game of the season against the Lakers. So yes, we definitely want to use that. We already bring talent in, artists in to perform. And so, yeah, we should be using the same sort of, the same homegrown talent that we have at GSE and finding these new ways to get exposure for artists who are affiliated with.  [00:07:56] Dan Runcie: And for the artists listening that may be interested, I know where in this era where a lot of artists want to own their masters. They want to be able to have their own flexibility. Well, what does some of that look like for the artists that would be considering GSE?  [00:08:11] David Kelly: Well, so I'm not going to get into the finer deal points that we have, but like something like, BamBam. Bambam was with this group called GOT7, obviously, right? And then he went solo. We did a song with BamBam. Bambam is not signed to Golden State Entertainment, right? He has his own career as an independent artist, huge following. So we can align ourselves with any number of artists who are not signed to our label. [00:08:36] David Kelly: And so I think that's something different than your typical record label in that we have this platform that the Golden State Warriors that has his own benefit that we bring to major artists to, to larger artists. And we have something that I think that's already attractive to an artist. So it doesn't have to be a long-term deal necessarily instead of every instance that we, that we're doing a partnership or collaboration with an artist, so.  [00:09:00] Dan Runcie: And to that point, the connections and a lot of that is what makes the difference even when people see and understand the brand, or you had Too $hort performing at game one of the Western Conference finals, E-40's courtside at all of these games, like you have the culture that's there so I do think that you have that. [00:09:19] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. One of the other things I saw too, is that you all have Rhymefest who, of course, is an established artist himself, long-time collaborator with Kanye West. What did that relationship look like and getting him on board?  [00:09:32] David Kelly: Yeah. So Rhymefest is like family. So that, that is a friend of mine going back 30 years. And when I think about, we're trying to build GSE, who do I want to align ourselves with from a brand perspective? When I think about one of the best writers that we have in hip hop over the past several decades, someone who actually has been an activist in his life still very, you know, very wise and very relevant at the same time, people like Rhymefest come to mind. And so that's where that kind of collaboration came from. [00:10:06] David Kelly: And No I.D., the same way, right? Like this is your OGs' OG when it comes to knowledge of the industry, knowledge of executive coaching. Someone who can help me just in terms of, trying to really run and build Golden State Entertainment. So to have him as a strategic advisor, also as a cultural advisor and producer, like there's no better person. And so, yeah, and those are just relationships from, you know, both of those guys are like family, so.  [00:10:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's great. That's great. And then are there any partnerships right now on the major record label side, or is it mostly an independent operation?  [00:10:46] David Kelly: Independent at the moment, who knows what the future might bring. But I'm independent at the moment. We have a distribution agreement, so we go through a distributor like your typical indie label would what would do, and we go from there.  [00:10:58] Dan Runcie: Nice. And something else you mentioned, taking a step back, looking at GSE more broadly, you mentioned the tech side and I always thought a lot about the rise of tech in the bay area, along with the rise of Golden State Warriors, just when they were in that run 2015 on with Steph, Klay, and Draymond, and we had heard so much about the investments that they were getting involved with. [00:11:23] Dan Runcie: I think this is a lot of what attracted KD. I know that Andre Iguodala and Steph had done work with Mastry and Rudy Cline-Thomas, and what he's done there. So, a lot of that at least to be seemed like the area brought them there, but they were each doing their own separate things. So it's interesting to hear what you may have alluded to in terms of the GSE in the Warriors itself, doing a bit more directly on the investment side. [00:11:49] David Kelly: Yeah. And so on the investment side, as it relates to tech, it's less GSE and more just the Golden State Warriors. And we have a separate arm that looks at various different tech investments. So that's separate from GSE. GSE is on the content front, film and music. But when we talk about us being a sports entertainment, media, and technology organization, we are as an, as a larger organization, that Golden State Warriors looking to make various different tech investments. The background of members of our ownership group, specifically, Joe Lacob, a fantastically successful venture capitalist. And so like he knows what he's doing when it comes to looking at those sorts of investments.  [00:12:27] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. [00:12:30] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Especially the past few years, I feel like there's so many teams as well that have either been getting more involved with crypto, where the rights for naming, with a lot of the crypto companies sponsoring arenas as well. And I know that some of that, you're also the Chief Business Officer for the organization too. What does that wave been like at least from your perspective when you're seeing some of the companies that want to, whether it's naming rights or wanting to be able to partner with the team on a more direct basis? [00:13:02] David Kelly: Yeah. I mean, so we're always looking to be at the forefront of new, innovative, whether it's technologies, ways of doing business. And so I see that world for the Golden State Warriors connects to what we'd have done in, in the NFT space. And we actually, we have a partnership ourselves with FTX. And so we were, I think the very first sports team to do an NFT drop around this time last year. [00:13:27] David Kelly: And so I do not, by any means, consider myself to be an expert in that space, but we, as an organization, want to make sure that we're on the cutting edge and innovative, and we have a number of people at the organization who are experts in that space and guide our hand in terms of looking into different companies with which we'll push to partner in ways in which to invest in, in Web 3.0 and NFTs and things of that nature, so. [00:13:49] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I guess on this note, thinking about naming rights more broadly, I know that the Chase Center had signed the deal with Kaiser. You, of course, have Thrive City and naming that through them. And then with the Chase Center as well, obviously with Chase too, it feels like every few years we do go through these waves where a lot of the teams do start to change or they do start to re-up their things. And I feel like the past couple of years, we've been in one of those modes now. Does it feel that way from your perspective, or do you feel like these things are constantly changing?  [00:14:24] David Kelly: When you say one of one of those modes now, can you elaborate what you mean? [00:14:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So I feel like in the past couple of years, especially the NBA, there's been a lot of teams, either, A, changing their naming rights to crypto-related companies that like things that are reflecting the current wave, or maybe the same thing with their outdoor space. And I know a lot of these things may change from time and time again, but I feel like the past, like, two, three years, we saw a wave. It felt like there was a lot more turnover than maybe there was in the three years or four years before that.  [00:14:55] David Kelly: Yeah, I think that may be more coincidence. I think those things go cyclical. And so you'll have your naming rights deal, whether it's for an outdoor space or for the arena itself, your 10- year deal or 20- year deal. [00:15:07] David Kelly: And just when those deals come up, they come up. And so I haven't talked to my counterparts at the other teams about it, but I'm pretty sure that those new deals that you're seeing are, they're as, a legacy deal that just happened to expire sometime over the last couple of years. And yes the crypto space is very hot right now. [00:15:25] David Kelly: So you'll see, you know, crypto arena and things of that nature, definitely jumping in and using sports properties, specifically arenas as a way to promote their product. And so you'll see a lot more arenas being named in the crypto space, but I don't think that the number of partnerships that have changed hands over the last couple of years is increased. [00:15:44] David Kelly: I don't think that's the case. You've just probably would see more concentration inside of that particular, with that particular industry.  [00:15:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think maybe the other side of it too, is that because at least from my perspective, we're seeing more of the outdoor spaces as well. Like having those and maybe a bit more valid. [00:16:01] Dan Runcie: I think I recently saw that the box area, they call it Deer District. They're looking for $4 billion for the naming rights for that. And I mean, sure, other teams are seeing that. I mean, you already have yours with Warriors. I'm sure other teams will see that, okay, like how could we get our version of that? [00:16:17] David Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. We named our entire plaza as Thrive City. And so, yeah, so we sold naming rights with respect to the arena as Chase Center. And then, sold naming rights with respect to the entire district as Thrive City. And so, yeah, so similar things happening with other teams.  [00:16:31] Dan Runcie: Got it. So shifting gears a bit, I want to talk a bit more about the other multimedia areas of GSE. So outside of music, we talked a bit about movies. You talked about what it could look like. It’s just like film and video in general. What does that outlook look like? What are you envisioning for the type of projects you can release?  [00:16:52] David Kelly: Yeah, so we want to be involved in projects that are rooted in sports. By no means are they limited by sports, right? And so one of the first projects, and our involvement can be any number of things. We could be a producer. We might come to the table with the script, with the entirety of the idea. There might be a project that's already moving forward and it just kinda needs us to make some connections and, and help to facilitate and so we could be putting money in not putting money in, lending our platform, any number, any number of things. And so, but one of the first projects that we got involved with was a project that was already moving forward, called 38 At the Garden about Jeremy Lin. We came in to help facilitate the production of that project. [00:17:31] David Kelly: And it really is a, it's exactly what it is we want to be doing on the film side at GSE. It's a story that's rooted in sports. It's the 10 year anniversary of Linsanity, but the true relevance of the project and why it speaks to us, and why I think it's going to speak to so many people, it's premiering at Tribeca in a couple of weeks, is because, more recently, the Stop AAPI Hate Movement and the violence against members of the Asian American community makes Jeremy Lin's story that much more relevant. And there's, so there's a social relevance to his story, which is why it really appeals to us. So we want to be telling stories that are rooted in sports, but have a larger social component to them. [00:18:11] David Kelly: And so Lin, Jeremy Lin's story is specifically that. And so, yeah, we're proud to be a part of it. [00:18:15] Dan Runcie: That makes sense, especially given the connection there because I think that some people may hear the association immediately, they may think, okay, well, he's a New York Knick. How did the Golden State Warriors get involved with the project for the New York Knicks? [00:18:28] Dan Runcie: Like, wouldn't the Madison Square Garden, or their, entertainment group be all over this? But what was the process like for that? Because I do assume that that is something that they would want to be heavily involved with, or maybe even potentially protective of. [00:18:43] David Kelly: Well, to be clear, he's from the Bay Area. And his first shot in the NBA was with the Warriors and his last shot in the NBA was with the Warriors. [00:18:51] David Kelly: So, our stories, we do not have to, we're not only going to be involved in stories that are Golden State Warriors stories, but for Jeremy, there are several Golden State Warrior ties, which is why it was something that we were very much focused on him and his story. We don't want to limit ourselves to only doing warrior stories. We're not going to limit ourselves even, you know, only doing basketball stories we want to do. And I don't think we're even going to ultimately limit ourselves to just do sports stories. We want to do stories that are relevant and resonate and have most likely some sort of sports tied to them. [00:19:24] David Kelly: But if it's a story that we think we can facilitate the telling of the story, and there's a place for us at that table, and if not for our participation, the story, maybe doesn't get told then. we'll be involved  [00:19:36] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I assume this also extends with scripted content as well, whether that is, you know, movies and films and things like that. [00:19:43] David Kelly: Yeah. we are starting off in the unscripted space, but we do not want to limit ourselves, put it that way. I think there's a lot that we can bring to bear whether on those unscripted or scripted side.  [00:19:52] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Thinking about your team though, and thinking about some of the stories you have potential for, a few things come to mind that I think would be amazing to see if there was something about it, that "We Believe" Warriors, that run. We'd love to see something like that. That's one of them, the other one that comes to mind is what would the Warriors' version of a Last Dance look like, right? Like we obviously have to see how this playoff run goes, but what would that look like? [00:20:21] Dan Runcie: I mean, I have to imagine that there's been some type of recording that has footage, that hasn't already been broadcast about everything from a, likely even well before that year you won the championship because this core group had been together for so long.  [00:20:35] David Kelly: You have a very vivid imagination. [00:20:40] Dan Runcie: Well played,well played.  [00:20:42] David Kelly: Yeah, yeah, I agree. Let's just say that.  [00:20:46] Dan Runcie: Well, the one thing that you can comment on, which I saw and you can correct me if I got this right, but I saw something that said that GSE couldn't do a documentary on Steph Curry until he retires because of the League's collective bargaining agreement. [00:21:03] Dan Runcie: And when I first saw this, I had to pause and think about it because I was like, I thought that Steph had had stuff with Facebook, I thing, one of those shows. I think him and Ayesha have that HBO show. What is the aspect that makes it that he could do stuff with them, but you all couldn't do something like this? [00:21:22] David Kelly: Yeah. So, I mean, it seems a little, it doesn't seem intuitive, but when you think about it actually does make sense. So if we're paying, the salary cap is such that we can't pay Steph more than X dollars, so we can pay them X dollars in terms of his contract. But then we can go do a movie with him that's going to make X plus Y or X or 3X dollars. [00:21:43] David Kelly: The League will look at that and the other 29 teams will look at that as a salary cap and salary cap circumvention. And so I get it. It makes, it actually does make sense. It protects us the same way, protects all the teams. And so, yeah, you can't have your separate deals under the table deals with a player where you're driving revenue to that player outside of his player contract. [00:22:03] Dan Runcie: Okay. That makes sense. So, because it's still technically part of the broader organization, that's why versus obviously Facebook is completely independent. Okay.  [00:22:13] David Kelly: Yeah.  [00:22:13] Dan Runcie: Interesting.  [00:22:15] David Kelly: So it's not to say that the player can't go out and make, you know, 5X, his player, his salary, more often times 10, 20X his playing contract. It just can't come from the team. [00:22:24] Dan Runcie: Got it. That makes sense. And maybe one thing that you may be able to comment on that I've been thinking about, especially just given the era that we're in now with how much more is being recorded, every person has their own channel to share things, whether that's Steph or a Draymond or whoever it is. I feel like that may make the filmmaking of a future Warriors-run documentary a little different than something like say The Last Dance when content and media was just less saturated then. So the footage and the concept they were able to have stands out in a unique way. [00:22:59] Dan Runcie: Does that shape overall, at least at this era, how you may approach documentary projects or what the unique angle may be given all of the opportunities for these players and for other outlets to be able to share their voice?  [00:23:13] David Kelly: Oh, it does. It does. It changes it. In some ways it makes the player a lot more known and relevant and universal. [00:23:21] David Kelly: I mean, if you think, if you look at a player like Draymond, who has been able to, he's a personality on TNT. He has his own podcast and he's phenomenal inside of all that, all the different venues that he's in, it makes them a lot more. It makes him a lot more marketable. And so that could be a very good thing for when we're trying to do, if we might try to do a, and make our version of The Last Dance documentary, right? Cause I think that, you know, there are still stories to be told. There is still the definitive story to be told. And so I don't think that it necessarily detracts from what it is that we're trying to do. I think one can build upon the other. Maybe we have to look at it differently in some of the stories that we're gonna maybe tell are going to be a little bit different than stories that you may have already heard as a listener.  [00:24:06] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I think in a lot of ways, the fact that there is more means there's so much more to build upon. I think back to last year. So this would have been 2021 when Draymond and Kevin Durant had had that Bleacher report conversation they had, and it created enough buzz to create a moment, at least for people that follow the NBA. [00:24:25] Dan Runcie: And you got two people that were just sharing their thoughts on one particular aspect of, you know, not one particular aspect, but one of the main things surrounding that discussion was one of the infamous interactions that they had had. So I think that those things do, like you're saying they build upon each other and they create new opportunities to tell and share these stories. [00:24:45] David Kelly: That's right. I agree.  [00:24:46] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That makes sense. Well, this has been great. I think it's exciting. You have a lot of stuff that's, we're definitely going to keep an eye on and I guess before we let you go though, are there any future GSE projects that you're excited about or anything that we haven't touched upon? Or as you're thinking about what the future looks like, where the potential is at, where things are going? [00:25:07] David Kelly: I mean, there's a number of film projects that we're working on right now. Not in a position to announce anything yet, but we, there may, there's another one that we're working on with respect to, a retired basketball player, probably gets announced over the next month or so. And when that comes out, you know exactly what I'm, talking about. What we have announced are some of, is the lineup that we have on the music side. And so I'm really excited for people to hear this new J.U.I.C.E. project and a couple of projects that we have with Georgia Anne Muldrow, because those are two legacy artists who I think have not received their just due in their careers. [00:25:41] David Kelly: And I think there's an underground, hardcore support that they have. And we're just looking to see if we can expand upon that because I think Georgia Anne is the Nina Simone of our generation, like she is, her voice and her ability to produce and sing and, and her viewpoint on the world is just something that would just love to be aligned with. [00:26:01] David Kelly: I love listen to and be aligned with. And so I'm really excited about that project.  [00:26:04] Dan Runcie: Nice. Any plans in audio, not music-related, podcasting.  [00:26:10] David Kelly: We've kicked some things around. Yeah. We've kicked some things around, nothing that's concrete at the moment, but you know, we're, we are aware of all the various different mediums. [00:26:19] David Kelly: And so we're looking to see how it is that we might be able to do storytelling be all on different media.  [00:26:25] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. Looking forward to it. Well, David, this is great. Thanks for coming on and chatting. Before we let you go, where can people find you or find the GSE if they want to follow up and keep up to tabs with everything that you have coming? [00:26:39] David Kelly: Yeah, so, we're going to start doing a much better job updating our website. So our website is gsent.com and we're also on Twitter and on Instagram as well.  [00:26:49] Dan Runcie: All right, sounds good. Thank you. This was great.  [00:26:52] David Kelly: Hey, appreciate it, man. This was great. [00:26:54] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. The Golden State Warriors took the commonly-said phrase “every company is a media company” and did one better, launching a first-of-its-kind organization, Golden State Entertainment (GSE). Leading this brand-new entertainment company is Warriors’ chief business officer David Kelly, who joined me on this episode of the Trapital podcast to discuss the brand-new endeavor. 


While GSE is an extension of the Warriors brand, it wasn’t created with the sole purpose of advancing the NBA team. It’s a completely separate company (not a division) and as Kelly told me, it needs to be profitable. To do so, GSE will produce original documentaries, music, and events.


Announced in April 2022, GSE has wasted no time breaking into the entertainment space. It’s already inked deals with iconic acts like Rhymefest and No I.D., released a song with K-pop star BamBam, and announced a documentary around Bay Area’s own Jeremy Lin.


The Warriors are building a sports, entertainment, media, and technology company in front of us and this interview shines light into the entertainment piece. Here’s everything David and I covered in this episode:


[3:10] How The Golden State Warriors Got Into Music & Film

[5:34] Measuring Success For GSE Record Label

[7:05] Synergy Opportunities With NBA Team

[8:11] What’s An Artist Deal At GSE Look Like?

[9:32] Why Rhymefest & No I.D. Joined GSE 

[14:55] Crypto’s Influence On Golden State & NBA Naming Rights Deals

[16:52] What Type Of Projects GSE Is Pursuing

[21:22] Why Can’t GSE Do A Steph Curry Documentary Until He’s Retired?

[23:13] Is There A New Era Of Documentaries?

[25:07] Upcoming GSE Projects



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: David Kelly, @goldenstateent

 

This episode was brought to you by Highlight. Build the community of your dreams on the blockchain. The new company is backed by leading investors like Haun Ventures, Thirty Five Ventures (“35V”), and more. Learn more at highlight.xyz

 

 

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TRANSCRIPTION


[00:00:00] David Kelly: We don't want to limit ourselves to only doing Warrior stories. We're not going to limit ourselves, even you know only doing basketball stories. We want to do, and I don't think we're even going to ultimately limit ourselves to just do sports stories. We want to do stories that are relevant and resonate and have most likely some sort of sports tied to them.

[00:00:18] David Kelly: But if it's a story that we think we can facilitate the telling of the story, and there's a place for us at that table, and, if not for our participation, the story maybe doesn't get told then we'll be involved. 

[00:00:29] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:57] Dan Runcie: Today's guest is David Kelly. He's the Chief Business Officer and Chief Legal Officer of the Golden State Warriors. And he's the head of the new Golden State Entertainment, which has focused on music, media and more. That's right. The Golden State Warriors are starting a record label. Believe me, when I heard this, I paused what I was doing, and I said, "Okay, I got to learn more. Tell me everything." And it was great to have David on to hear more about it. A lot of the inspiration for the record label came from David's own experience in hip hop. He was an artist himself, Capital D. We talked about how his journey through music influenced what he saw the platform for, of this team and ultimately the opportunities that they could provide for artists.

[00:01:41] Dan Runcie: They also have some great vets in the game that have jumped on board. No I.D. is an advisor to Golden State Entertainment, as well as Rhymefest who was signed on to join the record label himself. You may know both of them from their relationship with Kanye West and the work and influence he's done there.

[00:01:58] Dan Runcie: And David's old relationship with Rhymefest, too. So this was great to chat about. And we also talked about some of the potential projects coming down the pipeline. They're actually working on a project telling the story of Jeremy Lin, who is a Bay Area native and especially around everything that happened with Linsanity We're coming up on the decade anniversary of that and the influence he had on his New York Knicks run.

[00:02:21] Dan Runcie: And we talk about what some of those future projects may look like. We also talk about some of the trends happening right now with naming rights and all of the cryptocurrencies and Web 3.0 companies that are fighting for naming rights, both inside and outside of the arenas as well. This is a fun chat.

[00:02:37] Dan Runcie: And if you're interested in how teams like the Warriors, a team that is worth nearly $6 billion, how are they thinking about things and using their platform? This is the episode for you had a great chat. Hope you enjoy it. Here's my talk with David Kelly.

[00:02:52] Dan Runcie: All right. Today, we have David Kelly, head of Golden State Entertainment, which recently launched a record label. Congratulations. And let's actually start there. When did you first get the idea to start a record label for an NBA basketball team? 

[00:03:10] David Kelly: Yeah, so it's, it's funny. So, I mean, the company is two parts.

[00:03:13] David Kelly: We're doing film and we're doing music as well. And so the idea has been something that's been kicking around in my head for maybe three years now. And it really came from conversations with our ownership group around what we want to create as the Golden State Warriors. Like we see ourselves as a sports team, but really a sports entertainment media technology company.

[00:03:32] David Kelly: And it's up to me to try to figure out, all of us at the Warriors, to figure out what that really means and what kind of skills we can bring to bear on creating that larger vision so that to make it a reality. And so I thought about like what we do on the marketing side and what we do as a sports team, like we create stories, we create content.

[00:03:51] David Kelly: And then I thought about my own personal background in the music front. And I always saw myself as a content creator storyteller. And I started thinking about how can we bridge these two worlds? And so just over time, it's just the idea started becoming more and more apparent that this is something that we can be doing as the Golden State Warriors, and we, you know, there's this ancillary markets that are close, very close to sports, specifically to basketball. and we can create content in that space, whether it's film and/or music, so. 

[00:04:20] Dan Runcie: And I feel like your background, as well as an artist, Capital D, you had an experience that you understand exactly what it takes and the nuances of the music industry. So I feel like that as well, likely had a, as you mentioned, a pretty big influence on wanting to bring this to life. 

[00:04:39] David Kelly: It did. I mean, in a lot of ways, it's kind of aligning my passions and my background, my experiences into just bringing it all into even greater alignment and, with the platform of the Golden State Warriors platform that the NBA provides and being able to take who I am and really, really of dig into it and align it.

[00:05:00] Dan Runcie: Right. And then for the record label itself, let's talk a little bit about that. What do you see as success for the record label? How will you measure that? Because I'm sure that some people could maybe think that you obviously have a very successful basketball team itself. Is this something more that extends the brand and gets more customers in? Or is it something that, you know, stand alone, does have its own benchmarks for profitability or some of the other things looking at how other record labels may manage themselves? 

[00:05:34] David Kelly: Yeah, so we want to, it's both. It definitely is an extension of the brand and it's good for the Golden State Warrior brand. It's already paying dividends there, but it's a separate company that has it's, it's not like a division of the Warriors. This is a separate company that we launched.

[00:05:48] David Kelly: And it needs to be a profitable company and we're going to run it as such. In addition, we want to make sure that we're having an impact with the art that we put out, with the music they'll be put out and we want it to be relevant. We want it to speak to issues. We want it to inspire people. And so it's nothing new for a record label to be focused on that, but because we are attached to a separate organization, a separate team, it needs to all be consistent with our mission as Golden State Warriors. And so what we do all has to, it's that word alignment again. It all has to be aligned. So, yeah, so we're going to make some money.

[00:06:25] David Kelly: We're going to do dope projects. We're going to have an impact. And it's all going to speak to the benefit of the Golden State Warrior brand. 

[00:06:33] Dan Runcie: I'm envisioning some type of opportunities, just leveraging the platform you already have, whether that's, at halftime artists that assigned to the label coming out and being able to perform their, they have a platform or on the other side, as artists are performing at the Chase Center, being able to feature them as headliners for some of the A-list acts that come through.

[00:06:55] Dan Runcie: I feel like you having that, and then you also have the channel as well. Just being able to leverage each of these things to amplify the voice of the platform you have. 

[00:07:05] David Kelly: Check, check, check. So, yes. So at game two in the series against Memphis, actually it was game four, the second home game in our, in the series against Memphis.

[00:07:16] David Kelly: MAYZIN, who's the first artist who got signed, who signed to Golden State Entertainment, he performed at halftime in that game. And so, so yes, what you envision is, already come into pass. And in fact, the very, before we had even announced Golden State Entertainment, we had BamBam, performed at halftime right before we released the song by MAYZIN and BamBam. I mean, that was our last home game of the season against the Lakers. So yes, we definitely want to use that. We already bring talent in, artists in to perform. And so, yeah, we should be using the same sort of, the same homegrown talent that we have at GSE and finding these new ways to get exposure for artists who are affiliated with. 

[00:07:56] Dan Runcie: And for the artists listening that may be interested, I know where in this era where a lot of artists want to own their masters. They want to be able to have their own flexibility. Well, what does some of that look like for the artists that would be considering GSE? 

[00:08:11] David Kelly: Well, so I'm not going to get into the finer deal points that we have, but like something like, BamBam. Bambam was with this group called GOT7, obviously, right? And then he went solo. We did a song with BamBam. Bambam is not signed to Golden State Entertainment, right? He has his own career as an independent artist, huge following. So we can align ourselves with any number of artists who are not signed to our label.

[00:08:36] David Kelly: And so I think that's something different than your typical record label in that we have this platform that the Golden State Warriors that has his own benefit that we bring to major artists to, to larger artists. And we have something that I think that's already attractive to an artist. So it doesn't have to be a long-term deal necessarily instead of every instance that we, that we're doing a partnership or collaboration with an artist, so. 

[00:09:00] Dan Runcie: And to that point, the connections and a lot of that is what makes the difference even when people see and understand the brand, or you had Too $hort performing at game one of the Western Conference finals, E-40's courtside at all of these games, like you have the culture that's there so I do think that you have that.

[00:09:19] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah. One of the other things I saw too, is that you all have Rhymefest who, of course, is an established artist himself, long-time collaborator with Kanye West. What did that relationship look like and getting him on board? 

[00:09:32] David Kelly: Yeah. So Rhymefest is like family. So that, that is a friend of mine going back 30 years. And when I think about, we're trying to build GSE, who do I want to align ourselves with from a brand perspective? When I think about one of the best writers that we have in hip hop over the past several decades, someone who actually has been an activist in his life still very, you know, very wise and very relevant at the same time, people like Rhymefest come to mind. And so that's where that kind of collaboration came from.

[00:10:06] David Kelly: And No I.D., the same way, right? Like this is your OGs' OG when it comes to knowledge of the industry, knowledge of executive coaching. Someone who can help me just in terms of, trying to really run and build Golden State Entertainment. So to have him as a strategic advisor, also as a cultural advisor and producer, like there's no better person. And so, yeah, and those are just relationships from, you know, both of those guys are like family, so. 

[00:10:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's great. That's great. And then are there any partnerships right now on the major record label side, or is it mostly an independent operation? 

[00:10:46] David Kelly: Independent at the moment, who knows what the future might bring. But I'm independent at the moment. We have a distribution agreement, so we go through a distributor like your typical indie label would what would do, and we go from there. 

[00:10:58] Dan Runcie: Nice. And something else you mentioned, taking a step back, looking at GSE more broadly, you mentioned the tech side and I always thought a lot about the rise of tech in the bay area, along with the rise of Golden State Warriors, just when they were in that run 2015 on with Steph, Klay, and Draymond, and we had heard so much about the investments that they were getting involved with.

[00:11:23] Dan Runcie: I think this is a lot of what attracted KD. I know that Andre Iguodala and Steph had done work with Mastry and Rudy Cline-Thomas, and what he's done there. So, a lot of that at least to be seemed like the area brought them there, but they were each doing their own separate things. So it's interesting to hear what you may have alluded to in terms of the GSE in the Warriors itself, doing a bit more directly on the investment side.

[00:11:49] David Kelly: Yeah. And so on the investment side, as it relates to tech, it's less GSE and more just the Golden State Warriors. And we have a separate arm that looks at various different tech investments. So that's separate from GSE. GSE is on the content front, film and music. But when we talk about us being a sports entertainment, media, and technology organization, we are as an, as a larger organization, that Golden State Warriors looking to make various different tech investments. The background of members of our ownership group, specifically, Joe Lacob, a fantastically successful venture capitalist. And so like he knows what he's doing when it comes to looking at those sorts of investments. 

[00:12:27] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor.


[00:12:30] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Especially the past few years, I feel like there's so many teams as well that have either been getting more involved with crypto, where the rights for naming, with a lot of the crypto companies sponsoring arenas as well. And I know that some of that, you're also the Chief Business Officer for the organization too. What does that wave been like at least from your perspective when you're seeing some of the companies that want to, whether it's naming rights or wanting to be able to partner with the team on a more direct basis?

[00:13:02] David Kelly: Yeah. I mean, so we're always looking to be at the forefront of new, innovative, whether it's technologies, ways of doing business. And so I see that world for the Golden State Warriors connects to what we'd have done in, in the NFT space. And we actually, we have a partnership ourselves with FTX. And so we were, I think the very first sports team to do an NFT drop around this time last year.

[00:13:27] David Kelly: And so I do not, by any means, consider myself to be an expert in that space, but we, as an organization, want to make sure that we're on the cutting edge and innovative, and we have a number of people at the organization who are experts in that space and guide our hand in terms of looking into different companies with which we'll push to partner in ways in which to invest in, in Web 3.0 and NFTs and things of that nature, so.

[00:13:49] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I guess on this note, thinking about naming rights more broadly, I know that the Chase Center had signed the deal with Kaiser. You, of course, have Thrive City and naming that through them. And then with the Chase Center as well, obviously with Chase too, it feels like every few years we do go through these waves where a lot of the teams do start to change or they do start to re-up their things. And I feel like the past couple of years, we've been in one of those modes now. Does it feel that way from your perspective, or do you feel like these things are constantly changing? 

[00:14:24] David Kelly: When you say one of one of those modes now, can you elaborate what you mean?

[00:14:27] Dan Runcie: Yeah. So I feel like in the past couple of years, especially the NBA, there's been a lot of teams, either, A, changing their naming rights to crypto-related companies that like things that are reflecting the current wave, or maybe the same thing with their outdoor space. And I know a lot of these things may change from time and time again, but I feel like the past, like, two, three years, we saw a wave. It felt like there was a lot more turnover than maybe there was in the three years or four years before that. 

[00:14:55] David Kelly: Yeah, I think that may be more coincidence. I think those things go cyclical. And so you'll have your naming rights deal, whether it's for an outdoor space or for the arena itself, your 10- year deal or 20- year deal.

[00:15:07] David Kelly: And just when those deals come up, they come up. And so I haven't talked to my counterparts at the other teams about it, but I'm pretty sure that those new deals that you're seeing are, they're as, a legacy deal that just happened to expire sometime over the last couple of years. And yes the crypto space is very hot right now.

[00:15:25] David Kelly: So you'll see, you know, crypto arena and things of that nature, definitely jumping in and using sports properties, specifically arenas as a way to promote their product. And so you'll see a lot more arenas being named in the crypto space, but I don't think that the number of partnerships that have changed hands over the last couple of years is increased.

[00:15:44] David Kelly: I don't think that's the case. You've just probably would see more concentration inside of that particular, with that particular industry. 

[00:15:50] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think maybe the other side of it too, is that because at least from my perspective, we're seeing more of the outdoor spaces as well. Like having those and maybe a bit more valid.

[00:16:01] Dan Runcie: I think I recently saw that the box area, they call it Deer District. They're looking for $4 billion for the naming rights for that. And I mean, sure, other teams are seeing that. I mean, you already have yours with Warriors. I'm sure other teams will see that, okay, like how could we get our version of that?

[00:16:17] David Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. We named our entire plaza as Thrive City. And so, yeah, so we sold naming rights with respect to the arena as Chase Center. And then, sold naming rights with respect to the entire district as Thrive City. And so, yeah, so similar things happening with other teams. 

[00:16:31] Dan Runcie: Got it. So shifting gears a bit, I want to talk a bit more about the other multimedia areas of GSE. So outside of music, we talked a bit about movies. You talked about what it could look like. It’s just like film and video in general. What does that outlook look like? What are you envisioning for the type of projects you can release? 

[00:16:52] David Kelly: Yeah, so we want to be involved in projects that are rooted in sports. By no means are they limited by sports, right? And so one of the first projects, and our involvement can be any number of things. We could be a producer. We might come to the table with the script, with the entirety of the idea. There might be a project that's already moving forward and it just kinda needs us to make some connections and, and help to facilitate and so we could be putting money in not putting money in, lending our platform, any number, any number of things. And so, but one of the first projects that we got involved with was a project that was already moving forward, called 38 At the Garden about Jeremy Lin. We came in to help facilitate the production of that project.

[00:17:31] David Kelly: And it really is a, it's exactly what it is we want to be doing on the film side at GSE. It's a story that's rooted in sports. It's the 10 year anniversary of Linsanity, but the true relevance of the project and why it speaks to us, and why I think it's going to speak to so many people, it's premiering at Tribeca in a couple of weeks, is because, more recently, the Stop AAPI Hate Movement and the violence against members of the Asian American community makes Jeremy Lin's story that much more relevant. And there's, so there's a social relevance to his story, which is why it really appeals to us. So we want to be telling stories that are rooted in sports, but have a larger social component to them.

[00:18:11] David Kelly: And so Lin, Jeremy Lin's story is specifically that. And so, yeah, we're proud to be a part of it.

[00:18:15] Dan Runcie: That makes sense, especially given the connection there because I think that some people may hear the association immediately, they may think, okay, well, he's a New York Knick. How did the Golden State Warriors get involved with the project for the New York Knicks?

[00:18:28] Dan Runcie: Like, wouldn't the Madison Square Garden, or their, entertainment group be all over this? But what was the process like for that? Because I do assume that that is something that they would want to be heavily involved with, or maybe even potentially protective of.

[00:18:43] David Kelly: Well, to be clear, he's from the Bay Area. And his first shot in the NBA was with the Warriors and his last shot in the NBA was with the Warriors.

[00:18:51] David Kelly: So, our stories, we do not have to, we're not only going to be involved in stories that are Golden State Warriors stories, but for Jeremy, there are several Golden State Warrior ties, which is why it was something that we were very much focused on him and his story. We don't want to limit ourselves to only doing warrior stories. We're not going to limit ourselves even, you know, only doing basketball stories we want to do. And I don't think we're even going to ultimately limit ourselves to just do sports stories. We want to do stories that are relevant and resonate and have most likely some sort of sports tied to them.

[00:19:24] David Kelly: But if it's a story that we think we can facilitate the telling of the story, and there's a place for us at that table, and if not for our participation, the story, maybe doesn't get told then. we'll be involved 

[00:19:36] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I assume this also extends with scripted content as well, whether that is, you know, movies and films and things like that.

[00:19:43] David Kelly: Yeah. we are starting off in the unscripted space, but we do not want to limit ourselves, put it that way. I think there's a lot that we can bring to bear whether on those unscripted or scripted side. 

[00:19:52] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. Thinking about your team though, and thinking about some of the stories you have potential for, a few things come to mind that I think would be amazing to see if there was something about it, that "We Believe" Warriors, that run. We'd love to see something like that. That's one of them, the other one that comes to mind is what would the Warriors' version of a Last Dance look like, right? Like we obviously have to see how this playoff run goes, but what would that look like?

[00:20:21] Dan Runcie: I mean, I have to imagine that there's been some type of recording that has footage, that hasn't already been broadcast about everything from a, likely even well before that year you won the championship because this core group had been together for so long. 

[00:20:35] David Kelly: You have a very vivid imagination.

[00:20:40] Dan Runcie: Well played,well played. 

[00:20:42] David Kelly: Yeah, yeah, I agree. Let's just say that. 

[00:20:46] Dan Runcie: Well, the one thing that you can comment on, which I saw and you can correct me if I got this right, but I saw something that said that GSE couldn't do a documentary on Steph Curry until he retires because of the League's collective bargaining agreement.

[00:21:03] Dan Runcie: And when I first saw this, I had to pause and think about it because I was like, I thought that Steph had had stuff with Facebook, I thing, one of those shows. I think him and Ayesha have that HBO show. What is the aspect that makes it that he could do stuff with them, but you all couldn't do something like this?

[00:21:22] David Kelly: Yeah. So, I mean, it seems a little, it doesn't seem intuitive, but when you think about it actually does make sense. So if we're paying, the salary cap is such that we can't pay Steph more than X dollars, so we can pay them X dollars in terms of his contract. But then we can go do a movie with him that's going to make X plus Y or X or 3X dollars.

[00:21:43] David Kelly: The League will look at that and the other 29 teams will look at that as a salary cap and salary cap circumvention. And so I get it. It makes, it actually does make sense. It protects us the same way, protects all the teams. And so, yeah, you can't have your separate deals under the table deals with a player where you're driving revenue to that player outside of his player contract.

[00:22:03] Dan Runcie: Okay. That makes sense. So, because it's still technically part of the broader organization, that's why versus obviously Facebook is completely independent. Okay. 

[00:22:13] David Kelly: Yeah. 

[00:22:13] Dan Runcie: Interesting. 

[00:22:15] David Kelly: So it's not to say that the player can't go out and make, you know, 5X, his player, his salary, more often times 10, 20X his playing contract. It just can't come from the team.

[00:22:24] Dan Runcie: Got it. That makes sense. And maybe one thing that you may be able to comment on that I've been thinking about, especially just given the era that we're in now with how much more is being recorded, every person has their own channel to share things, whether that's Steph or a Draymond or whoever it is. I feel like that may make the filmmaking of a future Warriors-run documentary a little different than something like say The Last Dance when content and media was just less saturated then. So the footage and the concept they were able to have stands out in a unique way.

[00:22:59] Dan Runcie: Does that shape overall, at least at this era, how you may approach documentary projects or what the unique angle may be given all of the opportunities for these players and for other outlets to be able to share their voice? 

[00:23:13] David Kelly: Oh, it does. It does. It changes it. In some ways it makes the player a lot more known and relevant and universal.

[00:23:21] David Kelly: I mean, if you think, if you look at a player like Draymond, who has been able to, he's a personality on TNT. He has his own podcast and he's phenomenal inside of all that, all the different venues that he's in, it makes them a lot more. It makes him a lot more marketable. And so that could be a very good thing for when we're trying to do, if we might try to do a, and make our version of The Last Dance documentary, right? Cause I think that, you know, there are still stories to be told. There is still the definitive story to be told. And so I don't think that it necessarily detracts from what it is that we're trying to do. I think one can build upon the other. Maybe we have to look at it differently in some of the stories that we're gonna maybe tell are going to be a little bit different than stories that you may have already heard as a listener. 

[00:24:06] Dan Runcie: That makes sense. And I think in a lot of ways, the fact that there is more means there's so much more to build upon. I think back to last year. So this would have been 2021 when Draymond and Kevin Durant had had that Bleacher report conversation they had, and it created enough buzz to create a moment, at least for people that follow the NBA.

[00:24:25] Dan Runcie: And you got two people that were just sharing their thoughts on one particular aspect of, you know, not one particular aspect, but one of the main things surrounding that discussion was one of the infamous interactions that they had had. So I think that those things do, like you're saying they build upon each other and they create new opportunities to tell and share these stories.

[00:24:45] David Kelly: That's right. I agree. 

[00:24:46] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That makes sense. Well, this has been great. I think it's exciting. You have a lot of stuff that's, we're definitely going to keep an eye on and I guess before we let you go though, are there any future GSE projects that you're excited about or anything that we haven't touched upon? Or as you're thinking about what the future looks like, where the potential is at, where things are going?

[00:25:07] David Kelly: I mean, there's a number of film projects that we're working on right now. Not in a position to announce anything yet, but we, there may, there's another one that we're working on with respect to, a retired basketball player, probably gets announced over the next month or so. And when that comes out, you know exactly what I'm, talking about. What we have announced are some of, is the lineup that we have on the music side. And so I'm really excited for people to hear this new J.U.I.C.E. project and a couple of projects that we have with Georgia Anne Muldrow, because those are two legacy artists who I think have not received their just due in their careers.

[00:25:41] David Kelly: And I think there's an underground, hardcore support that they have. And we're just looking to see if we can expand upon that because I think Georgia Anne is the Nina Simone of our generation, like she is, her voice and her ability to produce and sing and, and her viewpoint on the world is just something that would just love to be aligned with.

[00:26:01] David Kelly: I love listen to and be aligned with. And so I'm really excited about that project. 

[00:26:04] Dan Runcie: Nice. Any plans in audio, not music-related, podcasting. 

[00:26:10] David Kelly: We've kicked some things around. Yeah. We've kicked some things around, nothing that's concrete at the moment, but you know, we're, we are aware of all the various different mediums.

[00:26:19] David Kelly: And so we're looking to see how it is that we might be able to do storytelling be all on different media. 

[00:26:25] Dan Runcie: Sounds good. Looking forward to it. Well, David, this is great. Thanks for coming on and chatting. Before we let you go, where can people find you or find the GSE if they want to follow up and keep up to tabs with everything that you have coming?

[00:26:39] David Kelly: Yeah, so, we're going to start doing a much better job updating our website. So our website is gsent.com and we're also on Twitter and on Instagram as well. 

[00:26:49] Dan Runcie: All right, sounds good. Thank you. This was great. 

[00:26:52] David Kelly: Hey, appreciate it, man. This was great.

[00:26:54] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.




]]> 1747 no The iPod’s Legacy in the Music Industry with Zack O’Malley Greenburg https://www.trapital.com/podcast On this episode, we switched things up! Instead of a standard interview, I talked about a few recent topics with the best-selling author, Zack O’Malley Greenburg. He has long had his pulse on the music industry. Between his past time covering the business at Forbes, writing acclaimed books on the likes of Jay-Z and Michael Jackson, or his current Substack blog, Zack has formed both a macro- and micro-view of the entire industry. He’s the perfect person to bring onto Trapital to discuss the stories reverberating across the music business today. One of those stories is Spotify’s floundering performance as of late. The streaming leader’s stock has cratered to all-time lows, partly due to so-so performance, but also as a byproduct of Netflix’s own struggles. But if you ask Zack, the commonalities between Netflix and Spotify aren’t as close as critics will have you believe. Specifically, Spotify’s “unlimited buffet” business model is a massive differentiator.  And then there’s Apple officially discounting the iPod after 21 years. Whether it gets the credit or not, the innovative product re-shaped the music business into what we see today. As a “legal Napster”, it laid the groundwork for today’s streaming-dominated industry — not just for music, but podcasts too.  Check out all the topics Zack and I covered in this episode of Trapital: [0:00] Zack’s First Experiences with The iPod [6:11] Steve Jobs First iPod Keynote [8:33] iPod As A Gateway Into Apple Ecosystem  [12:16] Will iPod Have A Resurgence Like Vinyl?  [14:48] U2’s Free Album On Apple Backfires  [18:55] Spotify’s Current Business Struggles [20:09] Why Spotify Shouldn’t Be Compared To Netflix [27:23] Do Spotify And Netflix Have Content Problems? [33:00] Examining Bad Bunny’s Meteoric Rise In Six Years [38:21] Latin Music Succeeding In US Despite Language Barrier  [40:12] Did Jay Z Ruin Robinson Cano’s Career? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog   This episode was brought to you by Highlight. Build the community of your dreams on the blockchain. The new company is backed by leading investors like Haun Ventures, Thirty Five Ventures (“35V”), and more. Learn more at highlight.xyz     Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: If you're a startup and you're looking for celebrity investors and, I know that the market is cooled down a bit, but still, you know, you're in a fairly mature startup. And you're trying to get your name out there a little more by getting, you know, music investors, celebrities, et cetera. The kind of reach that he has, especially if you're trying to get into the Spanish language market. It's untoppable and, you know, I just think there's a tremendous opportunity there and in a lot of other places for him too. [00:00:29] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:49] Dan Runcie: On today's episode, we switched things up a little bit. This is normally an interview-style podcast, but I did a recent survey. And many of you say you wanted to hear more from me. You wanted to hear my insights, my perspective on this space and where things are heading. So it was a great time to invite back Zack O'Malley Greenburg. [00:01:08] Dan Runcie: You may know him from his work at Forbes, where he started a lot of the reporting on how much money hip hop artists were making and the potential for what they could do in the business world. So we covered a bunch of topics in this episode. First, we talked about the iPod. Apple recently announced that they are discontinuing the influential device after almost 21 years in its production. So Zach and I talk about the device's importance and influence. Then we talked about Spotify. The stock is trading at an all-time low. So we talk about what does that mean for streaming? What does that mean for music and, more broadly, how does that compare to video and other types of streaming? [00:01:45] Dan Runcie: Then we talked about the current king of streaming, of the current king of Spotify. Bad Bunny is the biggest artist in the world. So we talk about the impact and importance of what that means for a Latin artist, a Latin artist, who is yet to do a song in English and how cool that is. And then we close things out where we talked about Robinson Canó, who is a baseball player and how his career took a bit of a different turn after he sides with Jay-Z's Roc Nation sports agency. [00:02:12] Dan Runcie: Hope you enjoy this episode. If you do, send a note and let us know, because that's the type of stuff that encourages great content. I hope you enjoy it. Here's our conversation. All right. We got Zack O'Malley Greenburg with us today and we are going to cover a bunch of topics. And the first one that's near and dear to both of us is we got to pour some out for the iPod. After almost 21 years, the device that changed the game, Apple announced it's discontinuing it. [00:02:38] Dan Runcie: And it's a great time to talk about its legacy, its impact. So first let's start here cause I know that you likely owned a bunch of these. I did too. How many iPods did you own and which version was the first one you got?  [00:02:50] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh man. You know, I think I had originally one of the clunky ones that didn't have sort of like the touch wheel, you know, like the kind of mano, you know, the, what is it like the black and white kind of a janky one. [00:03:02] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But the one that really sticks in my mind was right around the time that Bono was doing all those commercials. And I remember my godfather was like, I want to get you a nice present for your birthday. He's like, I want to get you like, like a personal DVD player. And I was like, that's very sweet of you. And I really appreciate that. Can I have an iPod instead? [00:03:23] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: He was like, what's this iPod? But yeah. I mean, it was, I think that one that must have been. I don't know, maybe around 2005, that was when they started getting really sexy-looking. And, and you had the touch wheel and you had kind of like the sleek black look on it instead of like, you know, sort of like the white witch, which would get kind of, you know, get kind of grimy, at least mine did. [00:03:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But this was sleek. I think the back was silver. I mean, it was really a work of art and that was when I started thinking it's only a matter of time before they just make one of these as a phone, you know? And I'm sure, you know, having talked to people at Apple over the years, by the time they put out that iPod in the mid-aughts, they already had a design on the iPhone, but there would have been no, you know, no iPhone if there weren't an iPod. [00:04:10] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, in many ways, I think the iPod saved the music industry, right? I mean, when they created that ecosystem, it just became easier to get your music, you know, through the legal means than by downloading them, you know, downloading those MP3s illegally and say what you will about the depth of the album and the issues of like breaking up albums and selling them single by single. [00:04:31] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But, you know, I think that really provided the bridge that the music industry needed to get to the streaming era. So yeah. Pour one out, indeed. How about you, Dan, what was your first? [00:04:41] Dan Runcie: Ah, yeah. So the first one for me, let's see, I want to say it was 2004, I bought the iPod mini because I didn't have a Mac at home. So I waited until they were compatible on PC. [00:04:54] Dan Runcie: And I added, I think I was working either at Dairy Queen or I was working at our local parks and rec at the time. And one of the first paychecks I had, I was like, no, let me go take this, buy iPod mini. So I had that, but listen, after two months of having that, and I was one of the first people in the school to have one at the time. I left it in my pocket and put it in the washing machine, like a typical teenager would, and that thing gets ruined. Right. So then I was like, okay, fine. Let me get another one. This time I was making CDs at the time, I was burning them and selling them in school. So I said, okay, I need a bigger operation here. Let me get the full-on classic one. [00:05:34] Dan Runcie: Got that, within two months of getting that, so this is around the time of high school graduation. I put the bag into this bleacher area by the school where we had the graduation. I go back after graduation. Someone takes that bag, someone in the class must've seen me put it there, and then that was gone. So then by the time I'm entering in college, I said, you know what? [00:05:55] Dan Runcie: I just need to get another one. So I bought three iPods within an 18-month period. It's one of the most ridiculous things. And obviously for the kid that was making $7 an hour at various jobs, would be at a camp counselor, working at Dairy Queen and other places. That's what I spent my money on. I bought it on iPods. [00:06:11] Dan Runcie: So I had to go into freshman year of college, fresh with of those things, but as I had that, that one I did have for a while though, I kept that one for a number of years. And I think I eventually got a Shuffle later on for running and stuff like that. So I think, so I guess I had four devices total, but I agree with you. Take a step back, thinking about the device overall. I'd actually went back and watched Steve Job's keynote that he initially did. [00:06:35] Dan Runcie: And he had done keynote presentations before for all the other products that he had throughout the years. But I feel like this one is the one that really turned to the pop culture aspect of the Steve Job's keynote with, he was no longer wearing the suits. He’s wearing the black turtleneck tucked into the jeans. [00:06:51] Dan Runcie: Takes the iPod out of the pocket, has the “hundred songs in your pocket” quote. And I think, from there, what you mentioned too about the bridge that this was for streaming. It makes a lot of sense, right? I mean, look at the way iTunes is set up. iTunes was essentially a legalized version of Napster, right? Instead of just downloading the songs for free, let's take a similar layout and make it look a lot cleaner than Napster did. [00:07:14] Dan Runcie: And you can download the songs yourself. The thing that's interesting though, if we just think about Apple's influence in this space over the years. This was the company that essentially paved the way for digital music technology, listening, both from companies in the industry. And it did the same for podcasting as well. [00:07:33] Dan Runcie: And for years, Jobs didn't want to get into music streaming. He thought that having an annual or having a monthly subscription for it wasn't the best idea. And obviously, we know that podcasting as well. Although it was something that Apple started, we're looking now, with the way things are, yes, they have presence in both podcasting and of music, but Apple isn't the industry leader in any of these spaces. So we can have a whole podcast episode about what's changed, but even though there's a lot that necessarily maybe hasn't taken off in the same way. You can't knock the influence of what this product did in just its evolution over the years and what it led to. I was looking at some stats earlier. Its sales peaked in 2008, 2009, right? You could still, after the iPhone came out, so you had this whole runway of time where they just kept selling more and more and they just eventually figured it out. And they had a whole system of these things that you're selling 20, 30 billion of them a quarter. It's crazy.  [00:08:33] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh yeah. And you know, the deeper you get into the Apple ecosystem, right. I mean, and I'm fully embedded. I'm stuck. There's no way out. You know, I remember with that, you know, the U2 era iPod, you could still, you know, when you plugged it into your computer, you would still see that little iPod icon on your desktop and you could open it up as though it were, you know, an external hard drive and you could, you know, move files in and out. [00:08:59] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And it didn't really, there were no questions asked as to where the files were obtained, you know, and they would show up in your music library and you can put all kinds of different files on there. And it was great. And then, you know, with each successive version, so they eventually eliminated that. And you know, now of course, if you have iTunes, you know, songs that you may have had in there from the, from the Limewire and Kazaa era just suddenly disappeared. [00:09:21] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And, you know, you can't really get them back unless you have them backed up somewhere on a physical hard drive. So, you know, I think that there was also a level of control that Apple got, but, you know, but to have you be part of that ecosystem, I think that's the most valuable thing for them, right? I mean, if you look at Apple or Spotify, you know, like you were talking sure, Apple is not the leader in the music streaming business. Apple Music is I guess, a distant second, but they, you know, they don't need to win that because the hardware turns out or at least in the case of the iPod. And now that, you know, more recently that the iPhone, that the hardware turns out to be more valuable than the software, you know, looking at Spotify. [00:09:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And I think a lot of it comes down to, you know, intellectual property, right? If the, if you have to pay for the intellectual property or your, you know, or a whole huge chunk of that is coming out of. You know, out of your profits or your revenue before you get to profit, you know, it's a, it's a lot harder to make a ton of money than it is for a company like Apple, where the iPod or the iPhone, you know, that was their intellectual property and they could sell it for whatever they want to.  [00:10:22] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, that's a good point. It makes it even think about AirPods. Now. Now I always see those infographics of AirPod revenue, and comparing that to all of these other tech companies. And how have you just looked at this one product that Apple has and how it does better than so many of the household companies that we have. [00:10:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But for you though, was the iPod the first product that pushed you onto Apple? Or were you in a household that had iMacs and things like that?  [00:10:48] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, no, I was, my first computer was an Apple, I think I only ever owned one or two computers that were not Apples. And that was when my gaming buddies in high school convinced me to get something else. But yeah, no, it's been, you know, from back in the day for me. So, I'm stuck.  [00:11:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's, it's interesting because I do think for a lot of people, this product ended up being the game-changer. Yeah. I know it took a few generations for them to eventually put it and make it Windows-compatible. And it's funny. I was looking back, there was a few conversations where Tony Fadell, the guy who had actually invented it, essentially that worked with Apple on it. [00:11:26] Dan Runcie: They had had a whole bunch of conversations about what ends up leading to what. And I think for a while, Jobs was under the impression that if you keep the iPod as Apple iOS exclusive device that it'll encourage more people to buy future iMac or Apple products, but what actually ended up happening, they pushed for the opposite and they saw the opposite where make the device compatible people then see, and they get introduced to the Apple world. [00:11:55] Dan Runcie: And then that makes them want to then buy more iMacs and buy more MacBooks and buy things like that. So it was the opposite push-pull of what they thought happens. And it's one of those things where instead of restricting access to make people think that they want, that they, you're restricting. How do you give people a taste and then have them naturally want to get it on there on their own? [00:12:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Absolutely. I mean, I think it almost mirrors being an artist, right? I mean, you don't want to withhold your art, your music from streaming services so that people will go out and buy the vinyl or, or, you know, back in those days, download the MP3. You want people to be out there and getting familiar with your work. [00:12:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And you're not going to cannibalize yourself if people really like you. I mean, just look at Taylor Swift, you know, her fans go out and buy her vinyl, you know, by the hundred thousand and they can certainly have access to it whenever they want on the streaming services.  [00:12:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Speaking of vinyls, it stuck out to me that there were a bunch of iPod Touch that sold out immediately. [00:12:51] Dan Runcie: So essentially the line is completely gone now and even a few on eBay that were going for crazy prices after this announcement came out and it made me think, is the iPod going to be the way that vinyls are looked at now? Is there going to be this resurgence for this retro thing where people look back and let's say that as millennials or gen Z have, kids, they want to see, okay, what was this generation listening to when they were teenagers and they'd go back and be like, oh, let's check out Zack's iPod, let's check out Dan's iPod or whatever else. Do you think that there is a resurgence in that type of way the same way we're seeing with vinyl?  [00:13:26] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I could see maybe I think the main issue would be a compatibility, right? In the way that you, you know, not even Apple to PC, but you know, old Apple stuff isn't even necessarily compatible with, compatible with new Apple stuff. [00:13:37] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So if I wanted to plug in my old iPod, if I could dig it up wherever it was. I don't think I even have a freaking USB port on my computer. No, I don't.  [00:13:49] Dan Runcie: You need like five dongles. You need like a firewire, USB to USB to C.  [00:13:54] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Exactly. And so, and even then it's like what songs will it remove, will my computer remove from my iPod or vice versa? [00:14:04] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So, I mean, I almost wonder if there's the really old ones where you go and you can see, like you can open it up like that U2 era iPod, and actually just manually move the MP3 tracks around, if those still work somehow, you know, that might be almost the way of safeguarding one's music files from being kinda like yanked up into the ether. [00:14:22] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I think whereas, vinyl, despite being somewhat cumbersome, it is ultimately plug and play. You plug it into a standard outlet, put the thing on pretty mechanical. So yeah, I do think that might be the only drawback, but yeah, I could totally see it. The next hipster thing, being dongles at all, finding the way to use iPod. So, yeah, just, I guess cassette tapes are making it come back to, so, you know, just like vinyl, even CDs were up, you know, over the past year or so. [00:14:46] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: What's old is new again.  [00:14:48] Dan Runcie: I know, right? You never know if someone had told me when the iPod first came out, that vinyls would've made a comeback, I'd never would have thought that, but you mentioned plug and play and you mentioned U2 earlier. We have to talk about the greatest hack of all time with whatever you plug this damn device into any USB thing, U2's album automatically starts playing. [00:15:07] Dan Runcie: How they were able to get that to happen and I know it wasn't a hundred percent intended, but it also kind of was so however they were able to do that, eventually I do think it got on the nerves of many people and we saw from whether it was Apple or even Spotify later on people feeling like these services are pushing certain artists on them. [00:15:27] Dan Runcie: I do think that that is one of the understated hacks that we've seen in both of U2's major deals with Apple.  [00:15:36] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I just remember, you know, right. They gave away that album and you woke up one morning and it was on your iTunes and all these people were freaking out, like, get this off my computer. [00:15:45] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I can't get it off my computer. I don't want this taking up hard drive space. Like first of all, how much hard drive space is taken up? You have a Mac anyway, probably. And it's, you know, it's fine. Is Bono really that offensive to you? Like U2? I mean, I don't know. I think it's sort of, you know, I mean, I don't want to say like easy listening, but it's not like offensive, like who is offended by U2? [00:16:06] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I was kind of always surprised by that. And Bono had this kind of poignant quote. He said he was like, you know, “I'm just an Irishman trying to give you some beautiful music.” Yeah. If you don't want it, I'm sorry, you know. That kind of thing and can't really feel bad for Bono and he was a good sport about it, but it's kind of funny that the way people's minds work, you know, it's like during the Napster era, it's like, oh, I got to go get all my music for free. [00:16:33] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I will seek it out to illegally download music. Right. And it'll take me an hour to download a song. And if somebody calls my mom on the landline, you know, it'll get interrupted halfway through, right? And then. Here comes U2 giving everybody a free album and they don't even have to do anything. [00:16:51] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And all these people are kind of grousing about it. So I thought that was sort of, you know, above all a really interesting commentary on like the human psyche and, you know, wanting what you can't have. Not wanting what you do. So pour one out for that as well.  [00:17:05] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I mean, from my perspective, I was never upset about the album actually being there, if anything, it was more so than minor inconvenience of can I plug this device into the USB port for one second, without anything automatically playing, right? Like I also had this era where it was back from doing anything that I'd purchased on iTunes and Lady Gaga's Bad Romance would always play. So like once the U2 thing stopped, like that song always played in. [00:17:35] Dan Runcie: You want to hear about friends making fun of me and dragging me for that all day long. That was always a, a hilarious one, but no, this was good. Let's pour one out for the iPod, one of the most influential products we've seen. And as we both know, I think we talk about how so much innovation starts in music and this device is one of the best examples of that. [00:17:55] Dan Runcie: So salute to it. It had a, had a great run. And on that note, I actually think it's probably better for us to stay on the music topic and the streaming topic. And talk a bit about Spotify because this company, less than a year ago, well, maybe a little bit more than a year ago, they were signing so many of the big exclusive deals. [00:18:18] Dan Runcie: The Rogan deal was still fairly fresh and the stock was at an all-time high. And now this stock is at an all-time low, as of recording this, it's trading under a hundred dollars. Its market cap is under $20 billion. Daniel Ek just purchased 50 million himself to show confidence that he has in the company stock moving forward. [00:18:39] Dan Runcie: But where do you see all of this happening? I think there's a lot that's happening in the market right now that could be aligned with this, but there's a lot that could be separate from this. That could be a bit more specific to where Spotify currently is. What's your take on the current state of Spotify? [00:18:55] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, I think, like you say, there are these kinds of macro trends in the market, in the world that are kind of dragging down a lot of stuff. I think with Spotify though, what's going on is that people are freaking out about streaming in particular after that sort of big surprise, bad news from Netflix a little while ago, where they essentially admitted that the cap on, you know, paid streaming for them was 220 million people and that they were going to open up their free, you know, free or lower ad-supported tier. I forget if it was free tier with ads. I think it was just a lower price tier with ads. So yeah know the idea that, well, you know, it's all streaming and Spotify had been trying to emulate Netflix by paying all this money for content and you know, the Joe Rogan's of the world and podcasting and stuff. [00:19:40] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I get it on one hand, but, you know, there's a lot of fear right now in the public markets. And there's a lot of, sort of, you know, constellating of things, right. And yes, they're both streaming companies, but to me, you know, I take a step back and I look at it and I see two totally different companies. I mean, obviously one is primarily, you know, video, one's audio, but you know, the reason that Spotify works and the reason that Spotify became the market leader in audio streaming, it is essentially an unlimited buffet. [00:20:09] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Netflix was never an unlimited buffet. And you know, this, if you are somebody who has ever gone on Netflix to find a particular movie or something like I remember many years ago when I first got Netflix, I was like, oh, you know, I want to watch whatever it was. The latest James Bond movie. I'll go on here. It's like $9.99 a month, unlimited everything, right? No, they only have, you know, whatever move they have, all these Adam Sandler movies and they have, you know, just like a random smattering of movies. And of course they have all these shows, but you get Netflix because you want to watch certain shows, you know, or because you are somebody who's just like, I want to just put something on and I trust that they will have, yeah, I don't want to think about it. Like I trust that they will have good stuff and I'll put on one of their shows and you know, it's not cheaper than cable. So, you know, that to me was always a very different model. It is not an unlimited buffet of movies and television, you know, unlike terrestrial cable, where in theory, you know, you get your cable package. [00:21:06] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You can watch the news or you can watch sports. So you can, there's some crappy movies on, you know, there's like more of a promise of unlimited opportunity. So I think that, like, there was never a video streaming service that had the unlimited buffet kind of nature of Spotify. So, you know, I think that's what ultimately caps Netflix, like around that 220 million number. If there was some way that Netflix could totally replace your cable. And I know Hulu has live TV options, or if Netflix really did have, you know, a complete movie library that you could complete TV library, you can, anything you want. I think that there would be a lot more room to grow, but it's such an ordeal to get all the rights necessary to do that. [00:21:46] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I don't know how that would ever happen. And you certainly couldn't bankroll like every single thing in the future. That would be needed to have that kind of thing going on in perpetuity. So, yeah, I guess I just, I think that Netflix is dealing with this issue of like, sort of the unbundling and re-bundling and what people are treating Netflix as a sort of like a bundle, right? You want to maybe some other bundles, you probably don't just have Netflix, you have Netflix and Hulu, or maybe you even have terrestrial cable and Netflix or something like that. Whereas the Spotify, you have all of your music. I mean, what do you not get on Spotify? Or if it's Apple Music, what do you not get an Apple Music? [00:22:18] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think it's a little bit of the baby getting thrown out with the bathwater. And I just think that the fundamental thesis is a little bit different when it comes to Spotify than it is with Netflix. So that's my 2 cents.  [00:22:29] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor.  [00:22:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's fair. And I think that echoes what Daniel Ek had said himself. Right. He said, even though Spotify and Netflix are both subscription-based revenue companies that serve media on a regular basis to its content, that is where a lot of the similarities do stop. And even though there are points where I feel like Spotify and other streaming services, music streaming services, tried to replicate what Netflix did. [00:22:55] Dan Runcie: It was never going to be that way. And I think what makes the music streaming area a bit more unique is that because 80%, I'll probably even say 90% of the content that each of these services offer is largely the same. You end up inevitably having a price war at some point, once you've reached a certain level of distribution, and once you've reached a certain percentage of audience that you're reshaped, we're starting to see that happen. [00:23:20] Dan Runcie: Now you're starting to see that saturation. And I was recently talking to Will Page, the economist that studies this space. And his analogy was that for a long time, this was a herbivore market. People were capturing the opportunity that's there, we're shifting to a carnivore market, and in a lot of ways that does end up benefiting the companies that are the most willing to cut costs and the most willing to pivot. And if we're bringing things back full circle a bit to what we said about Apple Music earlier, this is not a product that they are necessarily trying to run at a profit. It's very similar to the Amazon Prime mentality of when Jeff Bezos has said, the more Golden Globes that we win, the more sneakers that we're able to sell through Amazon. [00:24:03] Dan Runcie: And I think the same could be said for Apple to some extent. They won best picture, CODA won best picture. That's their product that helps them get more subscribers who then end up purchasing the wide number of different products they have under their Apple TV+ bundle that they're able to offer there. [00:24:19] Dan Runcie: I do think with Spotify though, and this is why I do think they likely have more relative upside right now, I would say than Netflix, it's for two reasons. One, Spotify has had relatively better growth in the most recent quarters, I'd say, and that's even accounting for both services are ceasing their service in Russia. [00:24:37] Dan Runcie: It's also looking at them just being able to already have the free tier penetration, already having a pipeline to acquire more as well. And secondly, I think the podcasting model is ultimately what will help them. This was a model that I was initially skeptical about for years, just in terms of whether or not Spotify would be able to actually make it work and become the dominant player in audio. [00:25:01] Dan Runcie: But the reason that I think they're probably going to be better off is because of the actual data that they could offer both advertisers and listening and podcasters as well. And this is going back to opportunities that Apple didn't necessarily capture at the time, if you think about the fact that most podcasting is essentially just an RSS feed and a lot of people are sharing monthly podcast downloads and things like that. [00:25:25] Dan Runcie: And if you look at some of the podcasts, especially some of the ones that were most popular, 2016 when podcasts would really start to take off. A lot of those listeners may not necessarily be actively listening, like it could be background downloads. That's where Spotify wins, because they can actually have that clear data to show who's listening to what. They acquired two companies, Chartable and Podsights, that are both analyzing and having the better data in this space. So the, we're leading to a future where Spotify eventually is going to be able to, I think, dominate the space because they're able to make the better pitch to advertisers. Come here, get a more direct way to reach your audience. [00:26:03] Dan Runcie: And I think if the numbers do continue to grow, I think they will be better off. So of course this is not investment advice, to be clear for anyone. But I do think that between the two of these, that Spotify is probably the company that's in the better position. And it's funny cause this isn't always a, a thought that I would have had of course, two completely different business models. [00:26:22] Dan Runcie: Netflix is fixed. Spotify is variable, but I do think that over time, relatively speaking, it still has plenty of hurdles to get through, but it feels like that's where the opportunity is.  [00:26:34] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. I think I totally agree with you there.  [00:26:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I mean, with that, another piece that people have brought up as well as content as well. What are your thoughts on Netflix's content? Because I know that's a piece where people have often said, well, if you're just going to make shows, like, Is It Cake? and stuff like that, then why am I going to pay money for the service and the fact that they haven't necessarily had as many true franchises or any repeatable types of things. [00:27:00] Dan Runcie: In my opinion, a lot of the things that have taken off from Spotify have, or not from Spotify, from Netflix. Sometimes it almost feels like it's like flashes and bottles that catch off a bit unexpectedly, whether it's like a Bird Box or a Squid Game, or Making A Murderer, things like that. Like it doesn't have the same feeling of, okay, you don't, this big HBO show is going to come and dominate like it does. [00:27:23] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, you know, I mean, I think Netflix has just done such a good job of going out and just acquiring tons and tons of content. Right. And, you know, given their model, they pay out a lot, you know, then people have been talking over the past, however many years, like, oh, Netflix spent X billion dollars on content. [00:27:41] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: How are they going to sustain it? But when you're acquiring that much stuff, it's like, you have all these lotto tickets and when something takes off, you know, I think in most cases you're not having to pay a lot of it back, you know, on the backend like you would with, you know, obviously Spotify ends up paying back, you know, a huge percentage of what comes in back to the labels and to the artists. [00:28:01] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think that the model. Netflix, has there are sort of like a lot higher upside when something works? I mean, I guess with Spotify, they're trying to emulate that on the podcasting side, but you know, it would seem to me that when Netflix has, you know, a TV show that takes off just out of nowhere, I mean, something like Squid Game, the amount of new subscribers they sign up are just, you know, so much more than, than you'd get with a hit podcast. So, I mean, you know, in a way I think what I'm most curious to see is how much will Spotify continue to try to emulate Netflix. Now that Netflix is sort of in a, you know, questionable phase and do they just kind of, you know, try to double down on the music aspect because the other piece of it that we haven't talked about, you know, when you're going out and acquiring content and you were paying for it specifically like to have it named and everything you become, you know, an arbiter of culture and taste also, you know, right and wrong of what is hate speech of what is, you know, all kinds of things. And that's like a huge pain in the ass to figure out, right, as we learned with the whole Spotify, Joe Rogan, Neil young situation. [00:29:06] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And. Yeah. I never thought that Neil Young being off of Spotify was gonna ruin Spotify. And I don't really think very many people did, but you know, it did go to show that there's a, an amount of energy that has to go into defending some decisions once, once you are acquiring content versus sure, I mean, if you have artists on your platform and you know, they do something terrible, you may have to make a decision to try to pull them off. But, you know, I think generally as a society, we've moved away from pressuring people to sort of deplatform musicians for making, you know, offensive music or something like that, music that some people find offensive. [00:29:42] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And even for, you know, some of the most controversial musicians, you know, it's super rare that their music is pulled down. So I just think that there's a lot more editorial energy that goes into obviously Netflix, but, you know, Spotify emulating Netflix in the podcasting space, that becomes a whole new headache with like a lot of unknown unknowns. [00:29:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I do wonder now that it's, you know, perhaps less of a growth area. Will Spotify continue to follow that path?  [00:30:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a great point. We had not touched on this piece of it. And I think that in a lot of ways it does mean it's more workforce, something like a company like Spotify. Netflix can pretty easily, at least I would hope so, identify the movies that have these issues, and we've already seen some of them have disclaimers, but there's a bit of a removedness from it because of just how they go about their deals versus Spotify. You just see the blind spots where someone that literally goes and finds all of the clips of Joe Rogan saying the N-word, putting that together. [00:30:38] Dan Runcie: And then that's what sparks the controversy. You would have hoped that the company themselves would have been looking at the content. And then it makes you think, are people really responding to the issue itself? By people, I mean, the company like Spotify, are they really responding to the issue itself or are they responding to the public outcry over the issue? [00:30:54] Dan Runcie: And that could, you know, be an ongoing conversation, but that's where I do think that there needs to be much more editorial oversight and understanding that if you are going to be, it's one thing to say that you're an open platform that anyone can put music on. Anyone can put, upload their music too, but when you're exclusively paying someone or licensing their content, it changes the dynamic of the relationship. [00:31:18] Dan Runcie: And I know that they try to make the distinction. Yes. we are licensing Joe Rogan's content as opposed to acquiring it. But the example I always bring back to people it's like, okay, well, let's explore that scenario then, let's say that this was Bill Simmons, who now works for Spotify because you acquired his company and we found those clips of him saying those things. Would you then have treated this situation differently? I don't know the answer to that situation, but Spotify is implying that they would, but I don't know.  [00:31:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. It's a gray area. And the more you get into, the deeper you get into editorial, the less profitable it is, I say, as a journalist. [00:31:54] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think that, you know, some of these companies are learning that the hard way.  [00:31:58] Dan Runcie: Couldn't agree more. And while we're on the note of Spotify, let's switch gears again and let's talk about the current king of Spotify, right? Bad Bunny. It is been really cool, and refreshing to see an artist outside of the US dominate on a platform like this. [00:32:13] Dan Runcie: I think that his success has really shown what's possible now in a way, I think that he's the greatest success story of the streaming era. I really do. I mean, when you think about what he was able to do, where he was six years ago, I've written about it in a recent newsletter about how six years ago, he's bagging groceries at a local grocery store in Puerto Rico. [00:32:36] Dan Runcie: And then now he's a superstar. He was on stage at the Super Bowl. He's going to have this old Marvel movie, tops every chart possible. It's like that Kurt Warner underdog story from him starting off as a grocery bagger and then did his Arena Football. But imagine if Kurt Warner had the career of Peyton Manning and actually went on to, you know, dominate years and years, it's impressive. What do you think about Bad Bunny and what he's been able to do?  [00:33:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Ah, I think it's incredible. I mean, and I think it also, it shows the democratization that has been brought about by streaming and what's that Jay-Z line? Men lie, women lie, numbers don't. And you know, you can have your charts for whatever publication and you can have all this and that and their formulas and stuff like that. [00:33:18] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But, you know, it's all very convoluted and, you know, it's, it's usually one way or the other. It's engineered to sort of favor the, those who are already sort of big names, but when you have the numbers, it shows up on Spotify and regardless of where you are on whatever other chart, I mean, the fact is that more people are listening to your music than they're listening to anybody else's music and it's objectively true. You can see it in Spotify and the numbers don't lie. And so Bad Bunny, I think, you know, was able to come up from, you know, in this incredible underdog story, you know, to get there and there's proof, right? I mean, there's proof in a way that there might not have been, you know, before the streaming era. [00:33:56] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think another thing about Bad Bunny that, you know, certainly in my time at Forbes, we would look, we've scoured the world to find and do our list of the top-earning musicians. And I did that list this past year for Rolling Stone, but, you know, it was just all old rockers selling their catalogs basically. [00:34:14] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And I think, you know, a function of that is that the pandemic has just greatly disrupted touring, which would kind of like traditionally be the thing that would get you up on one of these lists. And, you know, I think now that the pandemic is kind of easing up and tours are really starting to happen again, you know, we're seeing Bad Bunny be able to sell out stadiums, you know, I mean, he is really on that level in terms of, you know, people putting their money where their mouth is. So I think that next step is going to be, as we start to see these totals from his tour in combination, you know, with the streaming dollars and Marvel and all these other things that are going to come along with it, you know, he's going to start to climb up these earnings lists, you know, from a financial perspective as well. [00:34:56] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think that adds a whole other level. You know, sort of like credibility in some cases, when looking at somebody as like a generational superstar, when they sort of have the, you know, the financial success to prove it and to sustain and to, you know, to expand into other fascinating ways. So I'm really curious to see what he does next. [00:35:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Like, you know, what's his Jay-Z move? What's his Puffy move? Is there going to be something in the spirits business or the cannabis or who knows what, but, you know, personally, as sort of a music business nerd, I'm especially interested to see, you know, what does he do with all this energy and momentum and you know, what direction does he take it in having created this incredible musical empire. [00:35:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's only a matter of time until he's going to top most of those lists, right? You look at the numbers that this tour will likely do. It's likely going to be over 2 or 3 million, if not more, just given the amount of shows that he has and the size of the arenas that he's performing in. And one of the things that I've always thought about with artists from other countries is that there's always been this stigma or thought that in order for them to monetize, it always had to rely much more on brand deals or things like that because the assumption was that the fan bases in these areas may not be willing to necessarily pay as much, but his tours are disproving that just based on the sales numbers, I would need to dig it a little bit further to see, okay, are the dollar amounts in all of the regions similar, but I think he's proving that that isn't necessarily the case. Yeah. If he does want to continue to take this further, what would it look like if he eventually let's say that he continues to do things with the WWE even further? Is he able to have some type of connection there to make that further extend, right? This Marvel character he's going to have in this upcoming movie is a wrestler. What could that potentially look like? If he ends up selling some type of, as you mentioned, some type of spirits or getting involved with something on the business side, the sky really is the limit. [00:36:52] Dan Runcie: And I think it's one of those unique optionality things where it's up to him and what stuck out to me as well as if we think, just think about his trajectory and what's possible now for a lot of Latin artists, is that he has not done one song in English. Everything that he's done is either been in Spanish or if he did it, then his verses is still in Spanish. [00:37:15] Dan Runcie: But everyone else is still doing their stuff in English. Like this song. Cardi B from a couple of years ago. But I do think that that's different from even the wave of Latin artists that got mainstream popularity. Let's say 20 years ago, you have Enrique Iglesias, your Mark Anthony or even JLo to some extent, they all had to do albums in English before they were ever given a consideration for that mainstream push or appeal. [00:37:41] Dan Runcie: Ricky Martin was the same exact way. And I think the fact that he's been able to do on his terms, he's been able to be an advocate as well for both gender norms and for just LGBTQ as well and how he has been just a lot of the causes and things that he cares about. It's really cool to see artists like this. [00:38:02] Dan Runcie: And I think in some ways the trajectory that Latin artists have been on, especially in the streaming era, kind of reminds me of where hip hop was at a certain point, right? It's like in the early days they wanted those artists to like assimilate to whatever the pop phase was, right? Like the rappers had to do these pop collaborations. [00:38:21] Dan Runcie: The Latin stars had to do the, you know, US pop star collaborations. Then once they prove they no longer have to assimilate in the same way, then those artists set the trends and now everyone else wants to come to them. And now we're seeing Billie Eilish and Drake and all these other artists doing songs in Spanish, even though that's not their main language, we're just going to see more and more of that. [00:38:42] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, and I think that one of the things that Bad Bunny has proven, you know, in some other form, is that if given the opportunity, you know, if you're not sort of, you know, forced to go meet the quote unquote US mainstream market, where it's at, the US mainstream market will actually come to you. You know, and people who don't understand Spanish will still love your music. [00:39:02] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And, you know, I mean, I don't know. I know a lot of songs in English that I don't understand. Whatever genre, if it's, you know, rock and there's a lot of yelling or if it's, you know, rap and it's like so fast or with like a really deep accent. I don't always catch on but, you know, people respond to music. I mean, it doesn't really matter what's being said, I mean, look at Nirvana, right? Like a lot of the lyrics didn't particularly mean anything, but people just responded to the music and the vibe, the whole thing. So even if you can understand the words, people are going to be attracted to the music. And, you know, I think that he's showing that that holds true even on the tip-top superstar level for sure. [00:39:38] Dan Runcie: A hundred percent. Excited to see where his career goes, excited to see where he continues to dominate.  [00:39:43] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Amen to that. And, you know, if have his management too, I'm trying to get him in some consumer-facing startups, because if you're a startup and you're looking for celebrity investors and they know that the market is cooled down at it, but still, you know, you're in a really mature startup. And you're trying to get your name out there a little more by getting, you know, music, investors, celebrities, et cetera. The kind of reach that has, especially if you're trying to get into Spanish language market. It's untoppable. And I just think there's a tremendous opportunity there and in a lot of other places for him too, so.  [00:40:12] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah, I'm sure. It should be. All right. Before we wrap this up, we got to talk about this article that you had written very recently about, we're both fellow Yankees fans, and one of the stars we've been most familiar with over the years, Robinson Canó, and you have this idea that you were brought up. I thought it was really interesting and I want for you to talk more. Did Jay-Z ruin Robinson Canó bag?  [00:40:40] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I kind of posed that question on my Substack and, you know, I think going into it and that the background,I'm going to set the background for anybody who maybe isn't a Yankee fan, but I guess it was eight years ago, Robinson Canó, who at the time was the best player in the Yankees. [00:40:57] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Everybody thought he was going to resign. He was a free agent. Everybody thought he would come back, think they he's never lose out on a free agent. Jay-Z comes in, takes over as his agent from Scott Boras, who was like, you know, he is to baseball agency as Jay-Z is to hip hop. Jay-Z comes in, gets Canó to come over to Roc Nation, Roc Nation brings on CAA to help them, you know, kind of become, you know, Scott Boras-level players in the game, let's say, and you know, Robinson Canó gets offered seven years, $161 million by the Yankees and the months drag on, nobody else is offering him more. Everybody thinks Jay-Z is getting greedy. [00:41:34] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And then just out of nowhere, Canó goes to the Mariners for 240 million over 10 years and great deal financially for him. Obviously, it's, you know, like $80 million more than Yankees we're offering and no state income tax in Washington. However, a much worse team, a much worse ballpark for hitters and, you know, five years into the 10-year deal could no, I mean, I think that was when he got suspended for steroids, then he got traded to the Mets. [00:42:03] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And then he got suspended again last year, 80 games. And he started out this year with the Mets and just earlier this week got cut. And so here's this guy who, you know, so I guess that's my question. If he'd stayed with the Yankees, would all of, all of these miseries have befallen him and should we blame Jay-Z for the misery? [00:42:22] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And I think my answer ultimately is, is no, you know, It's going to retire almost a hundred million dollars richer, eventually. From a baseball perspective though, you can argue that things would have been better for him if he'd stayed with the Yankees. And as it turns out, the guy who really kind of led the charge and I reported this in the latest edition of my Jay-Z book, Empire State of Mind, the guy who led the charge for Canó to leave was Brodie Van Wagenen at CAA who then became the GM of the Mets. Traded for Canó, got fired by the new owner of the Mets and is now back working with Jay-Z. And I think working on, on representing Canó again, as he tries to, to latch on with another major league team. [00:43:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So you could kind of blame him, but you know, at the end of the day, I think it really does come down to the player, you know, who makes the decision to take bag, you know, instead of glory, which is, you know, defensible, I think you've got to live and you only have so long to be a professional ballplayer. And, you know, he was the one that took the performance-enhancing drugs, got suspended so, but it is this just sort of like a fascinating winding road, you know, from this decision that happened eight years ago, that's still playing out, that still had all these ramifications. And you look back to that deal. I mean, you know, the fact that Jay-Z, whether it was Jay-Z or CAA, or this guy, Brodie Van Wagenen doing most of the work. [00:43:37] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Jay-Z, Roc Nation did get credit. And after that you saw Roc Nation really become much more of a force as a professional sports agency. So, you know, certainly, Jay-Z did well for himself in those past eight years. He's a billionaire now. Brodie Van Wagenen has this great new job, and Robinson Canó has that much nicer retirement eventually. [00:43:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So maybe he lost a chance at eternal glory, but you know, a hundred million dollars is a lot of money. I don't know. Dan, what do you think?  [00:44:04] Dan Runcie: It's interesting because I've always thought that his career was definitely into replay. I felt like it was typical timing of, okay, this guy's turning 30 and that could be hit or miss for a lot of baseball players, depending on how well they're able to take care of themselves and stay out of injury thing. [00:44:18] Dan Runcie: The one thing though, and this is a part that I do think gets overlooked sometimes is the ballpark difference. Yankee Stadium, especially in the new Yankee stadium, literally engineered in some ways to get more home runs and just have more, especially more than the old Yankee stadium compared to T-Mobile Park in Seattle, before it was Safeco park, historically picture friendly ballpark. [00:44:41] Dan Runcie: So if you know what you're getting yourself into, I mean, outside of Griffey and A-Rod in the nineties. I can't necessarily think of people that really like, oh yeah. You know, they cleaned up there. Maybe, you know, you had some early, I'm trying to think of some of the other stars who may have like, done well they're from like a home run hitting perspective, but it's one of those things where you think about the trade-off, right? It's. to some degree, it kind of makes me think about Carmelo Anthony with the Knicks, right? It's like you went to that team, you did get paid and you ended up getting, you know, later on a Supermax. But I think a lot of the decisions that he made show that he was prioritizing more of the money that came through, as opposed to the decisions, why not wait until free agency to then join that team instead of making them all those picks for you.  [00:45:30] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Exactly. [00:45:31] Dan Runcie: And in some ways, yeah, I think about the Canó thing, that kinda kind of similarly, right. If you want it to continue to win and you didn't care as much about the money that you would have stayed in New York, but to our point, yeah. You get it a hundred million dollars is a lot, of course, but it's hard to have both, especially with the franchise, in my opinion, that they'll have spurts of having great players here and there, but they haven't necessarily been able to prove that winning this, that Canó was raised in. [00:45:57] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, and Canó is going to finish up and, you know, even now it looks like he may, he's probably going to catch on with another team, at least for the rest of the year, but he's, I think at 2,600, a little over 2,600 hits for his career, if he had been able to get to 3000, which I think in New York with a better lineup that turned over more, he gets more best, more opportunities to hit. [00:46:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: There 's a better ballpark for hitters. So more fly balls turn into home runs. It's pretty likely, he would've gotten to 3000 hits or that he'd be within shouting distance of it. Now with, you know, a little more time to go. There has never been a major league baseball player who got 3000 hits who did not end up in the hall of fame once eligible, except for the steroid guys and Pete Rose, who was thrown out of the game for betting on baseball. So it is like an automatic ticket to the hall of fame. So if he had just stayed at Yankee stadium, not done, you know, not on steroids, I think he would have gotten there. No question. And you know, who knows, I mean, seven years into that deal that he would have been what, 37, maybe. You never know if he was still hitting well, they might've brought him back for another year or two. God knows they kept bringing Brett Gardner back. So I do think he would've gotten a few thousand hits and had a really good shot at the hall of fame. And is that worth a hundred million dollars though? [00:47:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, I don't know. Probably not. Probably not. He did have such a sweet swing though, man. Watching him play in the Yankees stadium. That was always fun.  [00:47:25] Dan Runcie: He did it. He was exciting to watch. He had a great career and yeah, I think that's a great note for us to close out with this. Zack, we've covered a bunch in this pod, but basically, we'll have to have another roundup again at some point soon, but thanks for doing this. This is fun. [00:47:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: For sure. Thanks as always. [00:47:41] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post in your group chat, post in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. [00:47:56] Dan Runcie: And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 20 May 2022 08:00:00 -0000 The iPod’s Legacy in the Music Industry with Zack O’Malley Greenburg full Dan Runcie On this episode, we switched things up! Instead of a standard interview, I talked about a few recent topics with the best-selling author, Zack O’Malley Greenburg. He has long had his pulse on the music industry. Between his past time covering the business at Forbes, writing acclaimed books on the likes of Jay-Z and Michael Jackson, or his current Substack blog, Zack has formed both a macro- and micro-view of the entire industry. He’s the perfect person to bring onto Trapital to discuss the stories reverberating across the music business today. One of those stories is Spotify’s floundering performance as of late. The streaming leader’s stock has cratered to all-time lows, partly due to so-so performance, but also as a byproduct of Netflix’s own struggles. But if you ask Zack, the commonalities between Netflix and Spotify aren’t as close as critics will have you believe. Specifically, Spotify’s “unlimited buffet” business model is a massive differentiator.  And then there’s Apple officially discounting the iPod after 21 years. Whether it gets the credit or not, the innovative product re-shaped the music business into what we see today. As a “legal Napster”, it laid the groundwork for today’s streaming-dominated industry — not just for music, but podcasts too.  Check out all the topics Zack and I covered in this episode of Trapital: [0:00] Zack’s First Experiences with The iPod [6:11] Steve Jobs First iPod Keynote [8:33] iPod As A Gateway Into Apple Ecosystem  [12:16] Will iPod Have A Resurgence Like Vinyl?  [14:48] U2’s Free Album On Apple Backfires  [18:55] Spotify’s Current Business Struggles [20:09] Why Spotify Shouldn’t Be Compared To Netflix [27:23] Do Spotify And Netflix Have Content Problems? [33:00] Examining Bad Bunny’s Meteoric Rise In Six Years [38:21] Latin Music Succeeding In US Despite Language Barrier  [40:12] Did Jay Z Ruin Robinson Cano’s Career? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog   This episode was brought to you by Highlight. Build the community of your dreams on the blockchain. The new company is backed by leading investors like Haun Ventures, Thirty Five Ventures (“35V”), and more. Learn more at highlight.xyz     Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: If you're a startup and you're looking for celebrity investors and, I know that the market is cooled down a bit, but still, you know, you're in a fairly mature startup. And you're trying to get your name out there a little more by getting, you know, music investors, celebrities, et cetera. The kind of reach that he has, especially if you're trying to get into the Spanish language market. It's untoppable and, you know, I just think there's a tremendous opportunity there and in a lot of other places for him too. [00:00:29] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:49] Dan Runcie: On today's episode, we switched things up a little bit. This is normally an interview-style podcast, but I did a recent survey. And many of you say you wanted to hear more from me. You wanted to hear my insights, my perspective on this space and where things are heading. So it was a great time to invite back Zack O'Malley Greenburg. [00:01:08] Dan Runcie: You may know him from his work at Forbes, where he started a lot of the reporting on how much money hip hop artists were making and the potential for what they could do in the business world. So we covered a bunch of topics in this episode. First, we talked about the iPod. Apple recently announced that they are discontinuing the influential device after almost 21 years in its production. So Zach and I talk about the device's importance and influence. Then we talked about Spotify. The stock is trading at an all-time low. So we talk about what does that mean for streaming? What does that mean for music and, more broadly, how does that compare to video and other types of streaming? [00:01:45] Dan Runcie: Then we talked about the current king of streaming, of the current king of Spotify. Bad Bunny is the biggest artist in the world. So we talk about the impact and importance of what that means for a Latin artist, a Latin artist, who is yet to do a song in English and how cool that is. And then we close things out where we talked about Robinson Canó, who is a baseball player and how his career took a bit of a different turn after he sides with Jay-Z's Roc Nation sports agency. [00:02:12] Dan Runcie: Hope you enjoy this episode. If you do, send a note and let us know, because that's the type of stuff that encourages great content. I hope you enjoy it. Here's our conversation. All right. We got Zack O'Malley Greenburg with us today and we are going to cover a bunch of topics. And the first one that's near and dear to both of us is we got to pour some out for the iPod. After almost 21 years, the device that changed the game, Apple announced it's discontinuing it. [00:02:38] Dan Runcie: And it's a great time to talk about its legacy, its impact. So first let's start here cause I know that you likely owned a bunch of these. I did too. How many iPods did you own and which version was the first one you got?  [00:02:50] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh man. You know, I think I had originally one of the clunky ones that didn't have sort of like the touch wheel, you know, like the kind of mano, you know, the, what is it like the black and white kind of a janky one. [00:03:02] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But the one that really sticks in my mind was right around the time that Bono was doing all those commercials. And I remember my godfather was like, I want to get you a nice present for your birthday. He's like, I want to get you like, like a personal DVD player. And I was like, that's very sweet of you. And I really appreciate that. Can I have an iPod instead? [00:03:23] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: He was like, what's this iPod? But yeah. I mean, it was, I think that one that must have been. I don't know, maybe around 2005, that was when they started getting really sexy-looking. And, and you had the touch wheel and you had kind of like the sleek black look on it instead of like, you know, sort of like the white witch, which would get kind of, you know, get kind of grimy, at least mine did. [00:03:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But this was sleek. I think the back was silver. I mean, it was really a work of art and that was when I started thinking it's only a matter of time before they just make one of these as a phone, you know? And I'm sure, you know, having talked to people at Apple over the years, by the time they put out that iPod in the mid-aughts, they already had a design on the iPhone, but there would have been no, you know, no iPhone if there weren't an iPod. [00:04:10] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, in many ways, I think the iPod saved the music industry, right? I mean, when they created that ecosystem, it just became easier to get your music, you know, through the legal means than by downloading them, you know, downloading those MP3s illegally and say what you will about the depth of the album and the issues of like breaking up albums and selling them single by single. [00:04:31] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But, you know, I think that really provided the bridge that the music industry needed to get to the streaming era. So yeah. Pour one out, indeed. How about you, Dan, what was your first? [00:04:41] Dan Runcie: Ah, yeah. So the first one for me, let's see, I want to say it was 2004, I bought the iPod mini because I didn't have a Mac at home. So I waited until they were compatible on PC. [00:04:54] Dan Runcie: And I added, I think I was working either at Dairy Queen or I was working at our local parks and rec at the time. And one of the first paychecks I had, I was like, no, let me go take this, buy iPod mini. So I had that, but listen, after two months of having that, and I was one of the first people in the school to have one at the time. I left it in my pocket and put it in the washing machine, like a typical teenager would, and that thing gets ruined. Right. So then I was like, okay, fine. Let me get another one. This time I was making CDs at the time, I was burning them and selling them in school. So I said, okay, I need a bigger operation here. Let me get the full-on classic one. [00:05:34] Dan Runcie: Got that, within two months of getting that, so this is around the time of high school graduation. I put the bag into this bleacher area by the school where we had the graduation. I go back after graduation. Someone takes that bag, someone in the class must've seen me put it there, and then that was gone. So then by the time I'm entering in college, I said, you know what? [00:05:55] Dan Runcie: I just need to get another one. So I bought three iPods within an 18-month period. It's one of the most ridiculous things. And obviously for the kid that was making $7 an hour at various jobs, would be at a camp counselor, working at Dairy Queen and other places. That's what I spent my money on. I bought it on iPods. [00:06:11] Dan Runcie: So I had to go into freshman year of college, fresh with of those things, but as I had that, that one I did have for a while though, I kept that one for a number of years. And I think I eventually got a Shuffle later on for running and stuff like that. So I think, so I guess I had four devices total, but I agree with you. Take a step back, thinking about the device overall. I'd actually went back and watched Steve Job's keynote that he initially did. [00:06:35] Dan Runcie: And he had done keynote presentations before for all the other products that he had throughout the years. But I feel like this one is the one that really turned to the pop culture aspect of the Steve Job's keynote with, he was no longer wearing the suits. He’s wearing the black turtleneck tucked into the jeans. [00:06:51] Dan Runcie: Takes the iPod out of the pocket, has the “hundred songs in your pocket” quote. And I think, from there, what you mentioned too about the bridge that this was for streaming. It makes a lot of sense, right? I mean, look at the way iTunes is set up. iTunes was essentially a legalized version of Napster, right? Instead of just downloading the songs for free, let's take a similar layout and make it look a lot cleaner than Napster did. [00:07:14] Dan Runcie: And you can download the songs yourself. The thing that's interesting though, if we just think about Apple's influence in this space over the years. This was the company that essentially paved the way for digital music technology, listening, both from companies in the industry. And it did the same for podcasting as well. [00:07:33] Dan Runcie: And for years, Jobs didn't want to get into music streaming. He thought that having an annual or having a monthly subscription for it wasn't the best idea. And obviously, we know that podcasting as well. Although it was something that Apple started, we're looking now, with the way things are, yes, they have presence in both podcasting and of music, but Apple isn't the industry leader in any of these spaces. So we can have a whole podcast episode about what's changed, but even though there's a lot that necessarily maybe hasn't taken off in the same way. You can't knock the influence of what this product did in just its evolution over the years and what it led to. I was looking at some stats earlier. Its sales peaked in 2008, 2009, right? You could still, after the iPhone came out, so you had this whole runway of time where they just kept selling more and more and they just eventually figured it out. And they had a whole system of these things that you're selling 20, 30 billion of them a quarter. It's crazy.  [00:08:33] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh yeah. And you know, the deeper you get into the Apple ecosystem, right. I mean, and I'm fully embedded. I'm stuck. There's no way out. You know, I remember with that, you know, the U2 era iPod, you could still, you know, when you plugged it into your computer, you would still see that little iPod icon on your desktop and you could open it up as though it were, you know, an external hard drive and you could, you know, move files in and out. [00:08:59] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And it didn't really, there were no questions asked as to where the files were obtained, you know, and they would show up in your music library and you can put all kinds of different files on there. And it was great. And then, you know, with each successive version, so they eventually eliminated that. And you know, now of course, if you have iTunes, you know, songs that you may have had in there from the, from the Limewire and Kazaa era just suddenly disappeared. [00:09:21] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And, you know, you can't really get them back unless you have them backed up somewhere on a physical hard drive. So, you know, I think that there was also a level of control that Apple got, but, you know, but to have you be part of that ecosystem, I think that's the most valuable thing for them, right? I mean, if you look at Apple or Spotify, you know, like you were talking sure, Apple is not the leader in the music streaming business. Apple Music is I guess, a distant second, but they, you know, they don't need to win that because the hardware turns out or at least in the case of the iPod. And now that, you know, more recently that the iPhone, that the hardware turns out to be more valuable than the software, you know, looking at Spotify. [00:09:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And I think a lot of it comes down to, you know, intellectual property, right? If the, if you have to pay for the intellectual property or your, you know, or a whole huge chunk of that is coming out of. You know, out of your profits or your revenue before you get to profit, you know, it's a, it's a lot harder to make a ton of money than it is for a company like Apple, where the iPod or the iPhone, you know, that was their intellectual property and they could sell it for whatever they want to.  [00:10:22] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, that's a good point. It makes it even think about AirPods. Now. Now I always see those infographics of AirPod revenue, and comparing that to all of these other tech companies. And how have you just looked at this one product that Apple has and how it does better than so many of the household companies that we have. [00:10:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But for you though, was the iPod the first product that pushed you onto Apple? Or were you in a household that had iMacs and things like that?  [00:10:48] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, no, I was, my first computer was an Apple, I think I only ever owned one or two computers that were not Apples. And that was when my gaming buddies in high school convinced me to get something else. But yeah, no, it's been, you know, from back in the day for me. So, I'm stuck.  [00:11:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's, it's interesting because I do think for a lot of people, this product ended up being the game-changer. Yeah. I know it took a few generations for them to eventually put it and make it Windows-compatible. And it's funny. I was looking back, there was a few conversations where Tony Fadell, the guy who had actually invented it, essentially that worked with Apple on it. [00:11:26] Dan Runcie: They had had a whole bunch of conversations about what ends up leading to what. And I think for a while, Jobs was under the impression that if you keep the iPod as Apple iOS exclusive device that it'll encourage more people to buy future iMac or Apple products, but what actually ended up happening, they pushed for the opposite and they saw the opposite where make the device compatible people then see, and they get introduced to the Apple world. [00:11:55] Dan Runcie: And then that makes them want to then buy more iMacs and buy more MacBooks and buy things like that. So it was the opposite push-pull of what they thought happens. And it's one of those things where instead of restricting access to make people think that they want, that they, you're restricting. How do you give people a taste and then have them naturally want to get it on there on their own? [00:12:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Absolutely. I mean, I think it almost mirrors being an artist, right? I mean, you don't want to withhold your art, your music from streaming services so that people will go out and buy the vinyl or, or, you know, back in those days, download the MP3. You want people to be out there and getting familiar with your work. [00:12:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And you're not going to cannibalize yourself if people really like you. I mean, just look at Taylor Swift, you know, her fans go out and buy her vinyl, you know, by the hundred thousand and they can certainly have access to it whenever they want on the streaming services.  [00:12:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Speaking of vinyls, it stuck out to me that there were a bunch of iPod Touch that sold out immediately. [00:12:51] Dan Runcie: So essentially the line is completely gone now and even a few on eBay that were going for crazy prices after this announcement came out and it made me think, is the iPod going to be the way that vinyls are looked at now? Is there going to be this resurgence for this retro thing where people look back and let's say that as millennials or gen Z have, kids, they want to see, okay, what was this generation listening to when they were teenagers and they'd go back and be like, oh, let's check out Zack's iPod, let's check out Dan's iPod or whatever else. Do you think that there is a resurgence in that type of way the same way we're seeing with vinyl?  [00:13:26] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I could see maybe I think the main issue would be a compatibility, right? In the way that you, you know, not even Apple to PC, but you know, old Apple stuff isn't even necessarily compatible with, compatible with new Apple stuff. [00:13:37] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So if I wanted to plug in my old iPod, if I could dig it up wherever it was. I don't think I even have a freaking USB port on my computer. No, I don't.  [00:13:49] Dan Runcie: You need like five dongles. You need like a firewire, USB to USB to C.  [00:13:54] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Exactly. And so, and even then it's like what songs will it remove, will my computer remove from my iPod or vice versa? [00:14:04] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So, I mean, I almost wonder if there's the really old ones where you go and you can see, like you can open it up like that U2 era iPod, and actually just manually move the MP3 tracks around, if those still work somehow, you know, that might be almost the way of safeguarding one's music files from being kinda like yanked up into the ether. [00:14:22] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I think whereas, vinyl, despite being somewhat cumbersome, it is ultimately plug and play. You plug it into a standard outlet, put the thing on pretty mechanical. So yeah, I do think that might be the only drawback, but yeah, I could totally see it. The next hipster thing, being dongles at all, finding the way to use iPod. So, yeah, just, I guess cassette tapes are making it come back to, so, you know, just like vinyl, even CDs were up, you know, over the past year or so. [00:14:46] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: What's old is new again.  [00:14:48] Dan Runcie: I know, right? You never know if someone had told me when the iPod first came out, that vinyls would've made a comeback, I'd never would have thought that, but you mentioned plug and play and you mentioned U2 earlier. We have to talk about the greatest hack of all time with whatever you plug this damn device into any USB thing, U2's album automatically starts playing. [00:15:07] Dan Runcie: How they were able to get that to happen and I know it wasn't a hundred percent intended, but it also kind of was so however they were able to do that, eventually I do think it got on the nerves of many people and we saw from whether it was Apple or even Spotify later on people feeling like these services are pushing certain artists on them. [00:15:27] Dan Runcie: I do think that that is one of the understated hacks that we've seen in both of U2's major deals with Apple.  [00:15:36] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I just remember, you know, right. They gave away that album and you woke up one morning and it was on your iTunes and all these people were freaking out, like, get this off my computer. [00:15:45] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I can't get it off my computer. I don't want this taking up hard drive space. Like first of all, how much hard drive space is taken up? You have a Mac anyway, probably. And it's, you know, it's fine. Is Bono really that offensive to you? Like U2? I mean, I don't know. I think it's sort of, you know, I mean, I don't want to say like easy listening, but it's not like offensive, like who is offended by U2? [00:16:06] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I was kind of always surprised by that. And Bono had this kind of poignant quote. He said he was like, you know, “I'm just an Irishman trying to give you some beautiful music.” Yeah. If you don't want it, I'm sorry, you know. That kind of thing and can't really feel bad for Bono and he was a good sport about it, but it's kind of funny that the way people's minds work, you know, it's like during the Napster era, it's like, oh, I got to go get all my music for free. [00:16:33] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I will seek it out to illegally download music. Right. And it'll take me an hour to download a song. And if somebody calls my mom on the landline, you know, it'll get interrupted halfway through, right? And then. Here comes U2 giving everybody a free album and they don't even have to do anything. [00:16:51] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And all these people are kind of grousing about it. So I thought that was sort of, you know, above all a really interesting commentary on like the human psyche and, you know, wanting what you can't have. Not wanting what you do. So pour one out for that as well.  [00:17:05] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I mean, from my perspective, I was never upset about the album actually being there, if anything, it was more so than minor inconvenience of can I plug this device into the USB port for one second, without anything automatically playing, right? Like I also had this era where it was back from doing anything that I'd purchased on iTunes and Lady Gaga's Bad Romance would always play. So like once the U2 thing stopped, like that song always played in. [00:17:35] Dan Runcie: You want to hear about friends making fun of me and dragging me for that all day long. That was always a, a hilarious one, but no, this was good. Let's pour one out for the iPod, one of the most influential products we've seen. And as we both know, I think we talk about how so much innovation starts in music and this device is one of the best examples of that. [00:17:55] Dan Runcie: So salute to it. It had a, had a great run. And on that note, I actually think it's probably better for us to stay on the music topic and the streaming topic. And talk a bit about Spotify because this company, less than a year ago, well, maybe a little bit more than a year ago, they were signing so many of the big exclusive deals. [00:18:18] Dan Runcie: The Rogan deal was still fairly fresh and the stock was at an all-time high. And now this stock is at an all-time low, as of recording this, it's trading under a hundred dollars. Its market cap is under $20 billion. Daniel Ek just purchased 50 million himself to show confidence that he has in the company stock moving forward. [00:18:39] Dan Runcie: But where do you see all of this happening? I think there's a lot that's happening in the market right now that could be aligned with this, but there's a lot that could be separate from this. That could be a bit more specific to where Spotify currently is. What's your take on the current state of Spotify? [00:18:55] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, I think, like you say, there are these kinds of macro trends in the market, in the world that are kind of dragging down a lot of stuff. I think with Spotify though, what's going on is that people are freaking out about streaming in particular after that sort of big surprise, bad news from Netflix a little while ago, where they essentially admitted that the cap on, you know, paid streaming for them was 220 million people and that they were going to open up their free, you know, free or lower ad-supported tier. I forget if it was free tier with ads. I think it was just a lower price tier with ads. So yeah know the idea that, well, you know, it's all streaming and Spotify had been trying to emulate Netflix by paying all this money for content and you know, the Joe Rogan's of the world and podcasting and stuff. [00:19:40] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I get it on one hand, but, you know, there's a lot of fear right now in the public markets. And there's a lot of, sort of, you know, constellating of things, right. And yes, they're both streaming companies, but to me, you know, I take a step back and I look at it and I see two totally different companies. I mean, obviously one is primarily, you know, video, one's audio, but you know, the reason that Spotify works and the reason that Spotify became the market leader in audio streaming, it is essentially an unlimited buffet. [00:20:09] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Netflix was never an unlimited buffet. And you know, this, if you are somebody who has ever gone on Netflix to find a particular movie or something like I remember many years ago when I first got Netflix, I was like, oh, you know, I want to watch whatever it was. The latest James Bond movie. I'll go on here. It's like $9.99 a month, unlimited everything, right? No, they only have, you know, whatever move they have, all these Adam Sandler movies and they have, you know, just like a random smattering of movies. And of course they have all these shows, but you get Netflix because you want to watch certain shows, you know, or because you are somebody who's just like, I want to just put something on and I trust that they will have, yeah, I don't want to think about it. Like I trust that they will have good stuff and I'll put on one of their shows and you know, it's not cheaper than cable. So, you know, that to me was always a very different model. It is not an unlimited buffet of movies and television, you know, unlike terrestrial cable, where in theory, you know, you get your cable package. [00:21:06] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You can watch the news or you can watch sports. So you can, there's some crappy movies on, you know, there's like more of a promise of unlimited opportunity. So I think that, like, there was never a video streaming service that had the unlimited buffet kind of nature of Spotify. So, you know, I think that's what ultimately caps Netflix, like around that 220 million number. If there was some way that Netflix could totally replace your cable. And I know Hulu has live TV options, or if Netflix really did have, you know, a complete movie library that you could complete TV library, you can, anything you want. I think that there would be a lot more room to grow, but it's such an ordeal to get all the rights necessary to do that. [00:21:46] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I don't know how that would ever happen. And you certainly couldn't bankroll like every single thing in the future. That would be needed to have that kind of thing going on in perpetuity. So, yeah, I guess I just, I think that Netflix is dealing with this issue of like, sort of the unbundling and re-bundling and what people are treating Netflix as a sort of like a bundle, right? You want to maybe some other bundles, you probably don't just have Netflix, you have Netflix and Hulu, or maybe you even have terrestrial cable and Netflix or something like that. Whereas the Spotify, you have all of your music. I mean, what do you not get on Spotify? Or if it's Apple Music, what do you not get an Apple Music? [00:22:18] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think it's a little bit of the baby getting thrown out with the bathwater. And I just think that the fundamental thesis is a little bit different when it comes to Spotify than it is with Netflix. So that's my 2 cents.  [00:22:29] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor.  [00:22:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's fair. And I think that echoes what Daniel Ek had said himself. Right. He said, even though Spotify and Netflix are both subscription-based revenue companies that serve media on a regular basis to its content, that is where a lot of the similarities do stop. And even though there are points where I feel like Spotify and other streaming services, music streaming services, tried to replicate what Netflix did. [00:22:55] Dan Runcie: It was never going to be that way. And I think what makes the music streaming area a bit more unique is that because 80%, I'll probably even say 90% of the content that each of these services offer is largely the same. You end up inevitably having a price war at some point, once you've reached a certain level of distribution, and once you've reached a certain percentage of audience that you're reshaped, we're starting to see that happen. [00:23:20] Dan Runcie: Now you're starting to see that saturation. And I was recently talking to Will Page, the economist that studies this space. And his analogy was that for a long time, this was a herbivore market. People were capturing the opportunity that's there, we're shifting to a carnivore market, and in a lot of ways that does end up benefiting the companies that are the most willing to cut costs and the most willing to pivot. And if we're bringing things back full circle a bit to what we said about Apple Music earlier, this is not a product that they are necessarily trying to run at a profit. It's very similar to the Amazon Prime mentality of when Jeff Bezos has said, the more Golden Globes that we win, the more sneakers that we're able to sell through Amazon. [00:24:03] Dan Runcie: And I think the same could be said for Apple to some extent. They won best picture, CODA won best picture. That's their product that helps them get more subscribers who then end up purchasing the wide number of different products they have under their Apple TV+ bundle that they're able to offer there. [00:24:19] Dan Runcie: I do think with Spotify though, and this is why I do think they likely have more relative upside right now, I would say than Netflix, it's for two reasons. One, Spotify has had relatively better growth in the most recent quarters, I'd say, and that's even accounting for both services are ceasing their service in Russia. [00:24:37] Dan Runcie: It's also looking at them just being able to already have the free tier penetration, already having a pipeline to acquire more as well. And secondly, I think the podcasting model is ultimately what will help them. This was a model that I was initially skeptical about for years, just in terms of whether or not Spotify would be able to actually make it work and become the dominant player in audio. [00:25:01] Dan Runcie: But the reason that I think they're probably going to be better off is because of the actual data that they could offer both advertisers and listening and podcasters as well. And this is going back to opportunities that Apple didn't necessarily capture at the time, if you think about the fact that most podcasting is essentially just an RSS feed and a lot of people are sharing monthly podcast downloads and things like that. [00:25:25] Dan Runcie: And if you look at some of the podcasts, especially some of the ones that were most popular, 2016 when podcasts would really start to take off. A lot of those listeners may not necessarily be actively listening, like it could be background downloads. That's where Spotify wins, because they can actually have that clear data to show who's listening to what. They acquired two companies, Chartable and Podsights, that are both analyzing and having the better data in this space. So the, we're leading to a future where Spotify eventually is going to be able to, I think, dominate the space because they're able to make the better pitch to advertisers. Come here, get a more direct way to reach your audience. [00:26:03] Dan Runcie: And I think if the numbers do continue to grow, I think they will be better off. So of course this is not investment advice, to be clear for anyone. But I do think that between the two of these, that Spotify is probably the company that's in the better position. And it's funny cause this isn't always a, a thought that I would have had of course, two completely different business models. [00:26:22] Dan Runcie: Netflix is fixed. Spotify is variable, but I do think that over time, relatively speaking, it still has plenty of hurdles to get through, but it feels like that's where the opportunity is.  [00:26:34] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. I think I totally agree with you there.  [00:26:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I mean, with that, another piece that people have brought up as well as content as well. What are your thoughts on Netflix's content? Because I know that's a piece where people have often said, well, if you're just going to make shows, like, Is It Cake? and stuff like that, then why am I going to pay money for the service and the fact that they haven't necessarily had as many true franchises or any repeatable types of things. [00:27:00] Dan Runcie: In my opinion, a lot of the things that have taken off from Spotify have, or not from Spotify, from Netflix. Sometimes it almost feels like it's like flashes and bottles that catch off a bit unexpectedly, whether it's like a Bird Box or a Squid Game, or Making A Murderer, things like that. Like it doesn't have the same feeling of, okay, you don't, this big HBO show is going to come and dominate like it does. [00:27:23] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, you know, I mean, I think Netflix has just done such a good job of going out and just acquiring tons and tons of content. Right. And, you know, given their model, they pay out a lot, you know, then people have been talking over the past, however many years, like, oh, Netflix spent X billion dollars on content. [00:27:41] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: How are they going to sustain it? But when you're acquiring that much stuff, it's like, you have all these lotto tickets and when something takes off, you know, I think in most cases you're not having to pay a lot of it back, you know, on the backend like you would with, you know, obviously Spotify ends up paying back, you know, a huge percentage of what comes in back to the labels and to the artists. [00:28:01] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think that the model. Netflix, has there are sort of like a lot higher upside when something works? I mean, I guess with Spotify, they're trying to emulate that on the podcasting side, but you know, it would seem to me that when Netflix has, you know, a TV show that takes off just out of nowhere, I mean, something like Squid Game, the amount of new subscribers they sign up are just, you know, so much more than, than you'd get with a hit podcast. So, I mean, you know, in a way I think what I'm most curious to see is how much will Spotify continue to try to emulate Netflix. Now that Netflix is sort of in a, you know, questionable phase and do they just kind of, you know, try to double down on the music aspect because the other piece of it that we haven't talked about, you know, when you're going out and acquiring content and you were paying for it specifically like to have it named and everything you become, you know, an arbiter of culture and taste also, you know, right and wrong of what is hate speech of what is, you know, all kinds of things. And that's like a huge pain in the ass to figure out, right, as we learned with the whole Spotify, Joe Rogan, Neil young situation. [00:29:06] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And. Yeah. I never thought that Neil Young being off of Spotify was gonna ruin Spotify. And I don't really think very many people did, but you know, it did go to show that there's a, an amount of energy that has to go into defending some decisions once, once you are acquiring content versus sure, I mean, if you have artists on your platform and you know, they do something terrible, you may have to make a decision to try to pull them off. But, you know, I think generally as a society, we've moved away from pressuring people to sort of deplatform musicians for making, you know, offensive music or something like that, music that some people find offensive. [00:29:42] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And even for, you know, some of the most controversial musicians, you know, it's super rare that their music is pulled down. So I just think that there's a lot more editorial energy that goes into obviously Netflix, but, you know, Spotify emulating Netflix in the podcasting space, that becomes a whole new headache with like a lot of unknown unknowns. [00:29:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I do wonder now that it's, you know, perhaps less of a growth area. Will Spotify continue to follow that path?  [00:30:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a great point. We had not touched on this piece of it. And I think that in a lot of ways it does mean it's more workforce, something like a company like Spotify. Netflix can pretty easily, at least I would hope so, identify the movies that have these issues, and we've already seen some of them have disclaimers, but there's a bit of a removedness from it because of just how they go about their deals versus Spotify. You just see the blind spots where someone that literally goes and finds all of the clips of Joe Rogan saying the N-word, putting that together. [00:30:38] Dan Runcie: And then that's what sparks the controversy. You would have hoped that the company themselves would have been looking at the content. And then it makes you think, are people really responding to the issue itself? By people, I mean, the company like Spotify, are they really responding to the issue itself or are they responding to the public outcry over the issue? [00:30:54] Dan Runcie: And that could, you know, be an ongoing conversation, but that's where I do think that there needs to be much more editorial oversight and understanding that if you are going to be, it's one thing to say that you're an open platform that anyone can put music on. Anyone can put, upload their music too, but when you're exclusively paying someone or licensing their content, it changes the dynamic of the relationship. [00:31:18] Dan Runcie: And I know that they try to make the distinction. Yes. we are licensing Joe Rogan's content as opposed to acquiring it. But the example I always bring back to people it's like, okay, well, let's explore that scenario then, let's say that this was Bill Simmons, who now works for Spotify because you acquired his company and we found those clips of him saying those things. Would you then have treated this situation differently? I don't know the answer to that situation, but Spotify is implying that they would, but I don't know.  [00:31:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. It's a gray area. And the more you get into, the deeper you get into editorial, the less profitable it is, I say, as a journalist. [00:31:54] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think that, you know, some of these companies are learning that the hard way.  [00:31:58] Dan Runcie: Couldn't agree more. And while we're on the note of Spotify, let's switch gears again and let's talk about the current king of Spotify, right? Bad Bunny. It is been really cool, and refreshing to see an artist outside of the US dominate on a platform like this. [00:32:13] Dan Runcie: I think that his success has really shown what's possible now in a way, I think that he's the greatest success story of the streaming era. I really do. I mean, when you think about what he was able to do, where he was six years ago, I've written about it in a recent newsletter about how six years ago, he's bagging groceries at a local grocery store in Puerto Rico. [00:32:36] Dan Runcie: And then now he's a superstar. He was on stage at the Super Bowl. He's going to have this old Marvel movie, tops every chart possible. It's like that Kurt Warner underdog story from him starting off as a grocery bagger and then did his Arena Football. But imagine if Kurt Warner had the career of Peyton Manning and actually went on to, you know, dominate years and years, it's impressive. What do you think about Bad Bunny and what he's been able to do?  [00:33:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Ah, I think it's incredible. I mean, and I think it also, it shows the democratization that has been brought about by streaming and what's that Jay-Z line? Men lie, women lie, numbers don't. And you know, you can have your charts for whatever publication and you can have all this and that and their formulas and stuff like that. [00:33:18] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But, you know, it's all very convoluted and, you know, it's, it's usually one way or the other. It's engineered to sort of favor the, those who are already sort of big names, but when you have the numbers, it shows up on Spotify and regardless of where you are on whatever other chart, I mean, the fact is that more people are listening to your music than they're listening to anybody else's music and it's objectively true. You can see it in Spotify and the numbers don't lie. And so Bad Bunny, I think, you know, was able to come up from, you know, in this incredible underdog story, you know, to get there and there's proof, right? I mean, there's proof in a way that there might not have been, you know, before the streaming era. [00:33:56] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think another thing about Bad Bunny that, you know, certainly in my time at Forbes, we would look, we've scoured the world to find and do our list of the top-earning musicians. And I did that list this past year for Rolling Stone, but, you know, it was just all old rockers selling their catalogs basically. [00:34:14] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And I think, you know, a function of that is that the pandemic has just greatly disrupted touring, which would kind of like traditionally be the thing that would get you up on one of these lists. And, you know, I think now that the pandemic is kind of easing up and tours are really starting to happen again, you know, we're seeing Bad Bunny be able to sell out stadiums, you know, I mean, he is really on that level in terms of, you know, people putting their money where their mouth is. So I think that next step is going to be, as we start to see these totals from his tour in combination, you know, with the streaming dollars and Marvel and all these other things that are going to come along with it, you know, he's going to start to climb up these earnings lists, you know, from a financial perspective as well. [00:34:56] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think that adds a whole other level. You know, sort of like credibility in some cases, when looking at somebody as like a generational superstar, when they sort of have the, you know, the financial success to prove it and to sustain and to, you know, to expand into other fascinating ways. So I'm really curious to see what he does next. [00:35:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Like, you know, what's his Jay-Z move? What's his Puffy move? Is there going to be something in the spirits business or the cannabis or who knows what, but, you know, personally, as sort of a music business nerd, I'm especially interested to see, you know, what does he do with all this energy and momentum and you know, what direction does he take it in having created this incredible musical empire. [00:35:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's only a matter of time until he's going to top most of those lists, right? You look at the numbers that this tour will likely do. It's likely going to be over 2 or 3 million, if not more, just given the amount of shows that he has and the size of the arenas that he's performing in. And one of the things that I've always thought about with artists from other countries is that there's always been this stigma or thought that in order for them to monetize, it always had to rely much more on brand deals or things like that because the assumption was that the fan bases in these areas may not be willing to necessarily pay as much, but his tours are disproving that just based on the sales numbers, I would need to dig it a little bit further to see, okay, are the dollar amounts in all of the regions similar, but I think he's proving that that isn't necessarily the case. Yeah. If he does want to continue to take this further, what would it look like if he eventually let's say that he continues to do things with the WWE even further? Is he able to have some type of connection there to make that further extend, right? This Marvel character he's going to have in this upcoming movie is a wrestler. What could that potentially look like? If he ends up selling some type of, as you mentioned, some type of spirits or getting involved with something on the business side, the sky really is the limit. [00:36:52] Dan Runcie: And I think it's one of those unique optionality things where it's up to him and what stuck out to me as well as if we think, just think about his trajectory and what's possible now for a lot of Latin artists, is that he has not done one song in English. Everything that he's done is either been in Spanish or if he did it, then his verses is still in Spanish. [00:37:15] Dan Runcie: But everyone else is still doing their stuff in English. Like this song. Cardi B from a couple of years ago. But I do think that that's different from even the wave of Latin artists that got mainstream popularity. Let's say 20 years ago, you have Enrique Iglesias, your Mark Anthony or even JLo to some extent, they all had to do albums in English before they were ever given a consideration for that mainstream push or appeal. [00:37:41] Dan Runcie: Ricky Martin was the same exact way. And I think the fact that he's been able to do on his terms, he's been able to be an advocate as well for both gender norms and for just LGBTQ as well and how he has been just a lot of the causes and things that he cares about. It's really cool to see artists like this. [00:38:02] Dan Runcie: And I think in some ways the trajectory that Latin artists have been on, especially in the streaming era, kind of reminds me of where hip hop was at a certain point, right? It's like in the early days they wanted those artists to like assimilate to whatever the pop phase was, right? Like the rappers had to do these pop collaborations. [00:38:21] Dan Runcie: The Latin stars had to do the, you know, US pop star collaborations. Then once they prove they no longer have to assimilate in the same way, then those artists set the trends and now everyone else wants to come to them. And now we're seeing Billie Eilish and Drake and all these other artists doing songs in Spanish, even though that's not their main language, we're just going to see more and more of that. [00:38:42] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, and I think that one of the things that Bad Bunny has proven, you know, in some other form, is that if given the opportunity, you know, if you're not sort of, you know, forced to go meet the quote unquote US mainstream market, where it's at, the US mainstream market will actually come to you. You know, and people who don't understand Spanish will still love your music. [00:39:02] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And, you know, I mean, I don't know. I know a lot of songs in English that I don't understand. Whatever genre, if it's, you know, rock and there's a lot of yelling or if it's, you know, rap and it's like so fast or with like a really deep accent. I don't always catch on but, you know, people respond to music. I mean, it doesn't really matter what's being said, I mean, look at Nirvana, right? Like a lot of the lyrics didn't particularly mean anything, but people just responded to the music and the vibe, the whole thing. So even if you can understand the words, people are going to be attracted to the music. And, you know, I think that he's showing that that holds true even on the tip-top superstar level for sure. [00:39:38] Dan Runcie: A hundred percent. Excited to see where his career goes, excited to see where he continues to dominate.  [00:39:43] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Amen to that. And, you know, if have his management too, I'm trying to get him in some consumer-facing startups, because if you're a startup and you're looking for celebrity investors and they know that the market is cooled down at it, but still, you know, you're in a really mature startup. And you're trying to get your name out there a little more by getting, you know, music, investors, celebrities, et cetera. The kind of reach that has, especially if you're trying to get into Spanish language market. It's untoppable. And I just think there's a tremendous opportunity there and in a lot of other places for him too, so.  [00:40:12] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah, I'm sure. It should be. All right. Before we wrap this up, we got to talk about this article that you had written very recently about, we're both fellow Yankees fans, and one of the stars we've been most familiar with over the years, Robinson Canó, and you have this idea that you were brought up. I thought it was really interesting and I want for you to talk more. Did Jay-Z ruin Robinson Canó bag?  [00:40:40] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I kind of posed that question on my Substack and, you know, I think going into it and that the background,I'm going to set the background for anybody who maybe isn't a Yankee fan, but I guess it was eight years ago, Robinson Canó, who at the time was the best player in the Yankees. [00:40:57] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Everybody thought he was going to resign. He was a free agent. Everybody thought he would come back, think they he's never lose out on a free agent. Jay-Z comes in, takes over as his agent from Scott Boras, who was like, you know, he is to baseball agency as Jay-Z is to hip hop. Jay-Z comes in, gets Canó to come over to Roc Nation, Roc Nation brings on CAA to help them, you know, kind of become, you know, Scott Boras-level players in the game, let's say, and you know, Robinson Canó gets offered seven years, $161 million by the Yankees and the months drag on, nobody else is offering him more. Everybody thinks Jay-Z is getting greedy. [00:41:34] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And then just out of nowhere, Canó goes to the Mariners for 240 million over 10 years and great deal financially for him. Obviously, it's, you know, like $80 million more than Yankees we're offering and no state income tax in Washington. However, a much worse team, a much worse ballpark for hitters and, you know, five years into the 10-year deal could no, I mean, I think that was when he got suspended for steroids, then he got traded to the Mets. [00:42:03] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And then he got suspended again last year, 80 games. And he started out this year with the Mets and just earlier this week got cut. And so here's this guy who, you know, so I guess that's my question. If he'd stayed with the Yankees, would all of, all of these miseries have befallen him and should we blame Jay-Z for the misery? [00:42:22] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And I think my answer ultimately is, is no, you know, It's going to retire almost a hundred million dollars richer, eventually. From a baseball perspective though, you can argue that things would have been better for him if he'd stayed with the Yankees. And as it turns out, the guy who really kind of led the charge and I reported this in the latest edition of my Jay-Z book, Empire State of Mind, the guy who led the charge for Canó to leave was Brodie Van Wagenen at CAA who then became the GM of the Mets. Traded for Canó, got fired by the new owner of the Mets and is now back working with Jay-Z. And I think working on, on representing Canó again, as he tries to, to latch on with another major league team. [00:43:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So you could kind of blame him, but you know, at the end of the day, I think it really does come down to the player, you know, who makes the decision to take bag, you know, instead of glory, which is, you know, defensible, I think you've got to live and you only have so long to be a professional ballplayer. And, you know, he was the one that took the performance-enhancing drugs, got suspended so, but it is this just sort of like a fascinating winding road, you know, from this decision that happened eight years ago, that's still playing out, that still had all these ramifications. And you look back to that deal. I mean, you know, the fact that Jay-Z, whether it was Jay-Z or CAA, or this guy, Brodie Van Wagenen doing most of the work. [00:43:37] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Jay-Z, Roc Nation did get credit. And after that you saw Roc Nation really become much more of a force as a professional sports agency. So, you know, certainly, Jay-Z did well for himself in those past eight years. He's a billionaire now. Brodie Van Wagenen has this great new job, and Robinson Canó has that much nicer retirement eventually. [00:43:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So maybe he lost a chance at eternal glory, but you know, a hundred million dollars is a lot of money. I don't know. Dan, what do you think?  [00:44:04] Dan Runcie: It's interesting because I've always thought that his career was definitely into replay. I felt like it was typical timing of, okay, this guy's turning 30 and that could be hit or miss for a lot of baseball players, depending on how well they're able to take care of themselves and stay out of injury thing. [00:44:18] Dan Runcie: The one thing though, and this is a part that I do think gets overlooked sometimes is the ballpark difference. Yankee Stadium, especially in the new Yankee stadium, literally engineered in some ways to get more home runs and just have more, especially more than the old Yankee stadium compared to T-Mobile Park in Seattle, before it was Safeco park, historically picture friendly ballpark. [00:44:41] Dan Runcie: So if you know what you're getting yourself into, I mean, outside of Griffey and A-Rod in the nineties. I can't necessarily think of people that really like, oh yeah. You know, they cleaned up there. Maybe, you know, you had some early, I'm trying to think of some of the other stars who may have like, done well they're from like a home run hitting perspective, but it's one of those things where you think about the trade-off, right? It's. to some degree, it kind of makes me think about Carmelo Anthony with the Knicks, right? It's like you went to that team, you did get paid and you ended up getting, you know, later on a Supermax. But I think a lot of the decisions that he made show that he was prioritizing more of the money that came through, as opposed to the decisions, why not wait until free agency to then join that team instead of making them all those picks for you.  [00:45:30] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Exactly. [00:45:31] Dan Runcie: And in some ways, yeah, I think about the Canó thing, that kinda kind of similarly, right. If you want it to continue to win and you didn't care as much about the money that you would have stayed in New York, but to our point, yeah. You get it a hundred million dollars is a lot, of course, but it's hard to have both, especially with the franchise, in my opinion, that they'll have spurts of having great players here and there, but they haven't necessarily been able to prove that winning this, that Canó was raised in. [00:45:57] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, and Canó is going to finish up and, you know, even now it looks like he may, he's probably going to catch on with another team, at least for the rest of the year, but he's, I think at 2,600, a little over 2,600 hits for his career, if he had been able to get to 3000, which I think in New York with a better lineup that turned over more, he gets more best, more opportunities to hit. [00:46:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: There 's a better ballpark for hitters. So more fly balls turn into home runs. It's pretty likely, he would've gotten to 3000 hits or that he'd be within shouting distance of it. Now with, you know, a little more time to go. There has never been a major league baseball player who got 3000 hits who did not end up in the hall of fame once eligible, except for the steroid guys and Pete Rose, who was thrown out of the game for betting on baseball. So it is like an automatic ticket to the hall of fame. So if he had just stayed at Yankee stadium, not done, you know, not on steroids, I think he would have gotten there. No question. And you know, who knows, I mean, seven years into that deal that he would have been what, 37, maybe. You never know if he was still hitting well, they might've brought him back for another year or two. God knows they kept bringing Brett Gardner back. So I do think he would've gotten a few thousand hits and had a really good shot at the hall of fame. And is that worth a hundred million dollars though? [00:47:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, I don't know. Probably not. Probably not. He did have such a sweet swing though, man. Watching him play in the Yankees stadium. That was always fun.  [00:47:25] Dan Runcie: He did it. He was exciting to watch. He had a great career and yeah, I think that's a great note for us to close out with this. Zack, we've covered a bunch in this pod, but basically, we'll have to have another roundup again at some point soon, but thanks for doing this. This is fun. [00:47:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: For sure. Thanks as always. [00:47:41] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post in your group chat, post in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. [00:47:56] Dan Runcie: And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. On this episode, we switched things up! Instead of a standard interview, I talked about a few recent topics with the best-selling author, Zack O’Malley Greenburg. He has long had his pulse on the music industry. Between his past time covering the business at Forbes, writing acclaimed books on the likes of Jay-Z and Michael Jackson, or his current Substack blog, Zack has formed both a macro- and micro-view of the entire industry. He’s the perfect person to bring onto Trapital to discuss the stories reverberating across the music business today.


One of those stories is Spotify’s floundering performance as of late. The streaming leader’s stock has cratered to all-time lows, partly due to so-so performance, but also as a byproduct of Netflix’s own struggles. But if you ask Zack, the commonalities between Netflix and Spotify aren’t as close as critics will have you believe. Specifically, Spotify’s “unlimited buffet” business model is a massive differentiator. 


And then there’s Apple officially discounting the iPod after 21 years. Whether it gets the credit or not, the innovative product re-shaped the music business into what we see today. As a “legal Napster”, it laid the groundwork for today’s streaming-dominated industry — not just for music, but podcasts too. 


Check out all the topics Zack and I covered in this episode of Trapital:


[0:00] Zack’s First Experiences with The iPod

[6:11] Steve Jobs First iPod Keynote

[8:33] iPod As A Gateway Into Apple Ecosystem 

[12:16] Will iPod Have A Resurgence Like Vinyl? 

[14:48] U2’s Free Album On Apple Backfires 

[18:55] Spotify’s Current Business Struggles

[20:09] Why Spotify Shouldn’t Be Compared To Netflix

[27:23] Do Spotify And Netflix Have Content Problems?

[33:00] Examining Bad Bunny’s Meteoric Rise In Six Years

[38:21] Latin Music Succeeding In US Despite Language Barrier 

[40:12] Did Jay Z Ruin Robinson Cano’s Career?


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog

 

This episode was brought to you by Highlight. Build the community of your dreams on the blockchain. The new company is backed by leading investors like Haun Ventures, Thirty Five Ventures (“35V”), and more. Learn more at highlight.xyz

 

 

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Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 


TRANSCRIPTION

[00:00:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: If you're a startup and you're looking for celebrity investors and, I know that the market is cooled down a bit, but still, you know, you're in a fairly mature startup. And you're trying to get your name out there a little more by getting, you know, music investors, celebrities, et cetera. The kind of reach that he has, especially if you're trying to get into the Spanish language market. It's untoppable and, you know, I just think there's a tremendous opportunity there and in a lot of other places for him too.

[00:00:29] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:49] Dan Runcie: On today's episode, we switched things up a little bit. This is normally an interview-style podcast, but I did a recent survey. And many of you say you wanted to hear more from me. You wanted to hear my insights, my perspective on this space and where things are heading. So it was a great time to invite back Zack O'Malley Greenburg.

[00:01:08] Dan Runcie: You may know him from his work at Forbes, where he started a lot of the reporting on how much money hip hop artists were making and the potential for what they could do in the business world. So we covered a bunch of topics in this episode. First, we talked about the iPod. Apple recently announced that they are discontinuing the influential device after almost 21 years in its production. So Zach and I talk about the device's importance and influence. Then we talked about Spotify. The stock is trading at an all-time low. So we talk about what does that mean for streaming? What does that mean for music and, more broadly, how does that compare to video and other types of streaming?

[00:01:45] Dan Runcie: Then we talked about the current king of streaming, of the current king of Spotify. Bad Bunny is the biggest artist in the world. So we talk about the impact and importance of what that means for a Latin artist, a Latin artist, who is yet to do a song in English and how cool that is. And then we close things out where we talked about Robinson Canó, who is a baseball player and how his career took a bit of a different turn after he sides with Jay-Z's Roc Nation sports agency.

[00:02:12] Dan Runcie: Hope you enjoy this episode. If you do, send a note and let us know, because that's the type of stuff that encourages great content. I hope you enjoy it. Here's our conversation. All right. We got Zack O'Malley Greenburg with us today and we are going to cover a bunch of topics. And the first one that's near and dear to both of us is we got to pour some out for the iPod. After almost 21 years, the device that changed the game, Apple announced it's discontinuing it.

[00:02:38] Dan Runcie: And it's a great time to talk about its legacy, its impact. So first let's start here cause I know that you likely owned a bunch of these. I did too. How many iPods did you own and which version was the first one you got? 

[00:02:50] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh man. You know, I think I had originally one of the clunky ones that didn't have sort of like the touch wheel, you know, like the kind of mano, you know, the, what is it like the black and white kind of a janky one.

[00:03:02] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But the one that really sticks in my mind was right around the time that Bono was doing all those commercials. And I remember my godfather was like, I want to get you a nice present for your birthday. He's like, I want to get you like, like a personal DVD player. And I was like, that's very sweet of you. And I really appreciate that. Can I have an iPod instead?

[00:03:23] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: He was like, what's this iPod? But yeah. I mean, it was, I think that one that must have been. I don't know, maybe around 2005, that was when they started getting really sexy-looking. And, and you had the touch wheel and you had kind of like the sleek black look on it instead of like, you know, sort of like the white witch, which would get kind of, you know, get kind of grimy, at least mine did.

[00:03:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But this was sleek. I think the back was silver. I mean, it was really a work of art and that was when I started thinking it's only a matter of time before they just make one of these as a phone, you know? And I'm sure, you know, having talked to people at Apple over the years, by the time they put out that iPod in the mid-aughts, they already had a design on the iPhone, but there would have been no, you know, no iPhone if there weren't an iPod.

[00:04:10] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, in many ways, I think the iPod saved the music industry, right? I mean, when they created that ecosystem, it just became easier to get your music, you know, through the legal means than by downloading them, you know, downloading those MP3s illegally and say what you will about the depth of the album and the issues of like breaking up albums and selling them single by single.

[00:04:31] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But, you know, I think that really provided the bridge that the music industry needed to get to the streaming era. So yeah. Pour one out, indeed. How about you, Dan, what was your first?

[00:04:41] Dan Runcie: Ah, yeah. So the first one for me, let's see, I want to say it was 2004, I bought the iPod mini because I didn't have a Mac at home. So I waited until they were compatible on PC.

[00:04:54] Dan Runcie: And I added, I think I was working either at Dairy Queen or I was working at our local parks and rec at the time. And one of the first paychecks I had, I was like, no, let me go take this, buy iPod mini. So I had that, but listen, after two months of having that, and I was one of the first people in the school to have one at the time. I left it in my pocket and put it in the washing machine, like a typical teenager would, and that thing gets ruined. Right. So then I was like, okay, fine. Let me get another one. This time I was making CDs at the time, I was burning them and selling them in school. So I said, okay, I need a bigger operation here. Let me get the full-on classic one.

[00:05:34] Dan Runcie: Got that, within two months of getting that, so this is around the time of high school graduation. I put the bag into this bleacher area by the school where we had the graduation. I go back after graduation. Someone takes that bag, someone in the class must've seen me put it there, and then that was gone. So then by the time I'm entering in college, I said, you know what?

[00:05:55] Dan Runcie: I just need to get another one. So I bought three iPods within an 18-month period. It's one of the most ridiculous things. And obviously for the kid that was making $7 an hour at various jobs, would be at a camp counselor, working at Dairy Queen and other places. That's what I spent my money on. I bought it on iPods.

[00:06:11] Dan Runcie: So I had to go into freshman year of college, fresh with of those things, but as I had that, that one I did have for a while though, I kept that one for a number of years. And I think I eventually got a Shuffle later on for running and stuff like that. So I think, so I guess I had four devices total, but I agree with you. Take a step back, thinking about the device overall. I'd actually went back and watched Steve Job's keynote that he initially did.

[00:06:35] Dan Runcie: And he had done keynote presentations before for all the other products that he had throughout the years. But I feel like this one is the one that really turned to the pop culture aspect of the Steve Job's keynote with, he was no longer wearing the suits. He’s wearing the black turtleneck tucked into the jeans.

[00:06:51] Dan Runcie: Takes the iPod out of the pocket, has the “hundred songs in your pocket” quote. And I think, from there, what you mentioned too about the bridge that this was for streaming. It makes a lot of sense, right? I mean, look at the way iTunes is set up. iTunes was essentially a legalized version of Napster, right? Instead of just downloading the songs for free, let's take a similar layout and make it look a lot cleaner than Napster did.

[00:07:14] Dan Runcie: And you can download the songs yourself. The thing that's interesting though, if we just think about Apple's influence in this space over the years. This was the company that essentially paved the way for digital music technology, listening, both from companies in the industry. And it did the same for podcasting as well.

[00:07:33] Dan Runcie: And for years, Jobs didn't want to get into music streaming. He thought that having an annual or having a monthly subscription for it wasn't the best idea. And obviously, we know that podcasting as well. Although it was something that Apple started, we're looking now, with the way things are, yes, they have presence in both podcasting and of music, but Apple isn't the industry leader in any of these spaces. So we can have a whole podcast episode about what's changed, but even though there's a lot that necessarily maybe hasn't taken off in the same way. You can't knock the influence of what this product did in just its evolution over the years and what it led to. I was looking at some stats earlier. Its sales peaked in 2008, 2009, right? You could still, after the iPhone came out, so you had this whole runway of time where they just kept selling more and more and they just eventually figured it out. And they had a whole system of these things that you're selling 20, 30 billion of them a quarter. It's crazy. 

[00:08:33] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Oh yeah. And you know, the deeper you get into the Apple ecosystem, right. I mean, and I'm fully embedded. I'm stuck. There's no way out. You know, I remember with that, you know, the U2 era iPod, you could still, you know, when you plugged it into your computer, you would still see that little iPod icon on your desktop and you could open it up as though it were, you know, an external hard drive and you could, you know, move files in and out.

[00:08:59] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And it didn't really, there were no questions asked as to where the files were obtained, you know, and they would show up in your music library and you can put all kinds of different files on there. And it was great. And then, you know, with each successive version, so they eventually eliminated that. And you know, now of course, if you have iTunes, you know, songs that you may have had in there from the, from the Limewire and Kazaa era just suddenly disappeared.

[00:09:21] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And, you know, you can't really get them back unless you have them backed up somewhere on a physical hard drive. So, you know, I think that there was also a level of control that Apple got, but, you know, but to have you be part of that ecosystem, I think that's the most valuable thing for them, right? I mean, if you look at Apple or Spotify, you know, like you were talking sure, Apple is not the leader in the music streaming business. Apple Music is I guess, a distant second, but they, you know, they don't need to win that because the hardware turns out or at least in the case of the iPod. And now that, you know, more recently that the iPhone, that the hardware turns out to be more valuable than the software, you know, looking at Spotify.

[00:09:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And I think a lot of it comes down to, you know, intellectual property, right? If the, if you have to pay for the intellectual property or your, you know, or a whole huge chunk of that is coming out of. You know, out of your profits or your revenue before you get to profit, you know, it's a, it's a lot harder to make a ton of money than it is for a company like Apple, where the iPod or the iPhone, you know, that was their intellectual property and they could sell it for whatever they want to. 

[00:10:22] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, that's a good point. It makes it even think about AirPods. Now. Now I always see those infographics of AirPod revenue, and comparing that to all of these other tech companies. And how have you just looked at this one product that Apple has and how it does better than so many of the household companies that we have.

[00:10:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But for you though, was the iPod the first product that pushed you onto Apple? Or were you in a household that had iMacs and things like that? 

[00:10:48] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, no, I was, my first computer was an Apple, I think I only ever owned one or two computers that were not Apples. And that was when my gaming buddies in high school convinced me to get something else. But yeah, no, it's been, you know, from back in the day for me. So, I'm stuck. 

[00:11:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's, it's interesting because I do think for a lot of people, this product ended up being the game-changer. Yeah. I know it took a few generations for them to eventually put it and make it Windows-compatible. And it's funny. I was looking back, there was a few conversations where Tony Fadell, the guy who had actually invented it, essentially that worked with Apple on it.

[00:11:26] Dan Runcie: They had had a whole bunch of conversations about what ends up leading to what. And I think for a while, Jobs was under the impression that if you keep the iPod as Apple iOS exclusive device that it'll encourage more people to buy future iMac or Apple products, but what actually ended up happening, they pushed for the opposite and they saw the opposite where make the device compatible people then see, and they get introduced to the Apple world.

[00:11:55] Dan Runcie: And then that makes them want to then buy more iMacs and buy more MacBooks and buy things like that. So it was the opposite push-pull of what they thought happens. And it's one of those things where instead of restricting access to make people think that they want, that they, you're restricting. How do you give people a taste and then have them naturally want to get it on there on their own?

[00:12:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Absolutely. I mean, I think it almost mirrors being an artist, right? I mean, you don't want to withhold your art, your music from streaming services so that people will go out and buy the vinyl or, or, you know, back in those days, download the MP3. You want people to be out there and getting familiar with your work.

[00:12:32] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And you're not going to cannibalize yourself if people really like you. I mean, just look at Taylor Swift, you know, her fans go out and buy her vinyl, you know, by the hundred thousand and they can certainly have access to it whenever they want on the streaming services. 

[00:12:44] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Speaking of vinyls, it stuck out to me that there were a bunch of iPod Touch that sold out immediately.

[00:12:51] Dan Runcie: So essentially the line is completely gone now and even a few on eBay that were going for crazy prices after this announcement came out and it made me think, is the iPod going to be the way that vinyls are looked at now? Is there going to be this resurgence for this retro thing where people look back and let's say that as millennials or gen Z have, kids, they want to see, okay, what was this generation listening to when they were teenagers and they'd go back and be like, oh, let's check out Zack's iPod, let's check out Dan's iPod or whatever else. Do you think that there is a resurgence in that type of way the same way we're seeing with vinyl? 

[00:13:26] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I could see maybe I think the main issue would be a compatibility, right? In the way that you, you know, not even Apple to PC, but you know, old Apple stuff isn't even necessarily compatible with, compatible with new Apple stuff.

[00:13:37] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So if I wanted to plug in my old iPod, if I could dig it up wherever it was. I don't think I even have a freaking USB port on my computer. No, I don't. 

[00:13:49] Dan Runcie: You need like five dongles. You need like a firewire, USB to USB to C. 

[00:13:54] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Exactly. And so, and even then it's like what songs will it remove, will my computer remove from my iPod or vice versa?

[00:14:04] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So, I mean, I almost wonder if there's the really old ones where you go and you can see, like you can open it up like that U2 era iPod, and actually just manually move the MP3 tracks around, if those still work somehow, you know, that might be almost the way of safeguarding one's music files from being kinda like yanked up into the ether.

[00:14:22] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I think whereas, vinyl, despite being somewhat cumbersome, it is ultimately plug and play. You plug it into a standard outlet, put the thing on pretty mechanical. So yeah, I do think that might be the only drawback, but yeah, I could totally see it. The next hipster thing, being dongles at all, finding the way to use iPod. So, yeah, just, I guess cassette tapes are making it come back to, so, you know, just like vinyl, even CDs were up, you know, over the past year or so.

[00:14:46] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: What's old is new again. 

[00:14:48] Dan Runcie: I know, right? You never know if someone had told me when the iPod first came out, that vinyls would've made a comeback, I'd never would have thought that, but you mentioned plug and play and you mentioned U2 earlier. We have to talk about the greatest hack of all time with whatever you plug this damn device into any USB thing, U2's album automatically starts playing.

[00:15:07] Dan Runcie: How they were able to get that to happen and I know it wasn't a hundred percent intended, but it also kind of was so however they were able to do that, eventually I do think it got on the nerves of many people and we saw from whether it was Apple or even Spotify later on people feeling like these services are pushing certain artists on them.

[00:15:27] Dan Runcie: I do think that that is one of the understated hacks that we've seen in both of U2's major deals with Apple. 

[00:15:36] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I just remember, you know, right. They gave away that album and you woke up one morning and it was on your iTunes and all these people were freaking out, like, get this off my computer.

[00:15:45] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I can't get it off my computer. I don't want this taking up hard drive space. Like first of all, how much hard drive space is taken up? You have a Mac anyway, probably. And it's, you know, it's fine. Is Bono really that offensive to you? Like U2? I mean, I don't know. I think it's sort of, you know, I mean, I don't want to say like easy listening, but it's not like offensive, like who is offended by U2?

[00:16:06] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I was kind of always surprised by that. And Bono had this kind of poignant quote. He said he was like, you know, “I'm just an Irishman trying to give you some beautiful music.” Yeah. If you don't want it, I'm sorry, you know. That kind of thing and can't really feel bad for Bono and he was a good sport about it, but it's kind of funny that the way people's minds work, you know, it's like during the Napster era, it's like, oh, I got to go get all my music for free.

[00:16:33] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You know, I will seek it out to illegally download music. Right. And it'll take me an hour to download a song. And if somebody calls my mom on the landline, you know, it'll get interrupted halfway through, right? And then. Here comes U2 giving everybody a free album and they don't even have to do anything.

[00:16:51] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And all these people are kind of grousing about it. So I thought that was sort of, you know, above all a really interesting commentary on like the human psyche and, you know, wanting what you can't have. Not wanting what you do. So pour one out for that as well. 

[00:17:05] Dan Runcie: Oh yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I mean, from my perspective, I was never upset about the album actually being there, if anything, it was more so than minor inconvenience of can I plug this device into the USB port for one second, without anything automatically playing, right? Like I also had this era where it was back from doing anything that I'd purchased on iTunes and Lady Gaga's Bad Romance would always play. So like once the U2 thing stopped, like that song always played in.

[00:17:35] Dan Runcie: You want to hear about friends making fun of me and dragging me for that all day long. That was always a, a hilarious one, but no, this was good. Let's pour one out for the iPod, one of the most influential products we've seen. And as we both know, I think we talk about how so much innovation starts in music and this device is one of the best examples of that.

[00:17:55] Dan Runcie: So salute to it. It had a, had a great run. And on that note, I actually think it's probably better for us to stay on the music topic and the streaming topic. And talk a bit about Spotify because this company, less than a year ago, well, maybe a little bit more than a year ago, they were signing so many of the big exclusive deals.

[00:18:18] Dan Runcie: The Rogan deal was still fairly fresh and the stock was at an all-time high. And now this stock is at an all-time low, as of recording this, it's trading under a hundred dollars. Its market cap is under $20 billion. Daniel Ek just purchased 50 million himself to show confidence that he has in the company stock moving forward.

[00:18:39] Dan Runcie: But where do you see all of this happening? I think there's a lot that's happening in the market right now that could be aligned with this, but there's a lot that could be separate from this. That could be a bit more specific to where Spotify currently is. What's your take on the current state of Spotify?

[00:18:55] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. I mean, I think, like you say, there are these kinds of macro trends in the market, in the world that are kind of dragging down a lot of stuff. I think with Spotify though, what's going on is that people are freaking out about streaming in particular after that sort of big surprise, bad news from Netflix a little while ago, where they essentially admitted that the cap on, you know, paid streaming for them was 220 million people and that they were going to open up their free, you know, free or lower ad-supported tier. I forget if it was free tier with ads. I think it was just a lower price tier with ads. So yeah know the idea that, well, you know, it's all streaming and Spotify had been trying to emulate Netflix by paying all this money for content and you know, the Joe Rogan's of the world and podcasting and stuff.

[00:19:40] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I get it on one hand, but, you know, there's a lot of fear right now in the public markets. And there's a lot of, sort of, you know, constellating of things, right. And yes, they're both streaming companies, but to me, you know, I take a step back and I look at it and I see two totally different companies. I mean, obviously one is primarily, you know, video, one's audio, but you know, the reason that Spotify works and the reason that Spotify became the market leader in audio streaming, it is essentially an unlimited buffet.

[00:20:09] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Netflix was never an unlimited buffet. And you know, this, if you are somebody who has ever gone on Netflix to find a particular movie or something like I remember many years ago when I first got Netflix, I was like, oh, you know, I want to watch whatever it was. The latest James Bond movie. I'll go on here. It's like $9.99 a month, unlimited everything, right? No, they only have, you know, whatever move they have, all these Adam Sandler movies and they have, you know, just like a random smattering of movies. And of course they have all these shows, but you get Netflix because you want to watch certain shows, you know, or because you are somebody who's just like, I want to just put something on and I trust that they will have, yeah, I don't want to think about it. Like I trust that they will have good stuff and I'll put on one of their shows and you know, it's not cheaper than cable. So, you know, that to me was always a very different model. It is not an unlimited buffet of movies and television, you know, unlike terrestrial cable, where in theory, you know, you get your cable package.

[00:21:06] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: You can watch the news or you can watch sports. So you can, there's some crappy movies on, you know, there's like more of a promise of unlimited opportunity. So I think that, like, there was never a video streaming service that had the unlimited buffet kind of nature of Spotify. So, you know, I think that's what ultimately caps Netflix, like around that 220 million number. If there was some way that Netflix could totally replace your cable. And I know Hulu has live TV options, or if Netflix really did have, you know, a complete movie library that you could complete TV library, you can, anything you want. I think that there would be a lot more room to grow, but it's such an ordeal to get all the rights necessary to do that.

[00:21:46] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: I don't know how that would ever happen. And you certainly couldn't bankroll like every single thing in the future. That would be needed to have that kind of thing going on in perpetuity. So, yeah, I guess I just, I think that Netflix is dealing with this issue of like, sort of the unbundling and re-bundling and what people are treating Netflix as a sort of like a bundle, right? You want to maybe some other bundles, you probably don't just have Netflix, you have Netflix and Hulu, or maybe you even have terrestrial cable and Netflix or something like that. Whereas the Spotify, you have all of your music. I mean, what do you not get on Spotify? Or if it's Apple Music, what do you not get an Apple Music?

[00:22:18] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think it's a little bit of the baby getting thrown out with the bathwater. And I just think that the fundamental thesis is a little bit different when it comes to Spotify than it is with Netflix. So that's my 2 cents. 

[00:22:29] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. 

[00:22:30] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I think that's fair. And I think that echoes what Daniel Ek had said himself. Right. He said, even though Spotify and Netflix are both subscription-based revenue companies that serve media on a regular basis to its content, that is where a lot of the similarities do stop. And even though there are points where I feel like Spotify and other streaming services, music streaming services, tried to replicate what Netflix did.

[00:22:55] Dan Runcie: It was never going to be that way. And I think what makes the music streaming area a bit more unique is that because 80%, I'll probably even say 90% of the content that each of these services offer is largely the same. You end up inevitably having a price war at some point, once you've reached a certain level of distribution, and once you've reached a certain percentage of audience that you're reshaped, we're starting to see that happen.

[00:23:20] Dan Runcie: Now you're starting to see that saturation. And I was recently talking to Will Page, the economist that studies this space. And his analogy was that for a long time, this was a herbivore market. People were capturing the opportunity that's there, we're shifting to a carnivore market, and in a lot of ways that does end up benefiting the companies that are the most willing to cut costs and the most willing to pivot. And if we're bringing things back full circle a bit to what we said about Apple Music earlier, this is not a product that they are necessarily trying to run at a profit. It's very similar to the Amazon Prime mentality of when Jeff Bezos has said, the more Golden Globes that we win, the more sneakers that we're able to sell through Amazon.

[00:24:03] Dan Runcie: And I think the same could be said for Apple to some extent. They won best picture, CODA won best picture. That's their product that helps them get more subscribers who then end up purchasing the wide number of different products they have under their Apple TV+ bundle that they're able to offer there.

[00:24:19] Dan Runcie: I do think with Spotify though, and this is why I do think they likely have more relative upside right now, I would say than Netflix, it's for two reasons. One, Spotify has had relatively better growth in the most recent quarters, I'd say, and that's even accounting for both services are ceasing their service in Russia.

[00:24:37] Dan Runcie: It's also looking at them just being able to already have the free tier penetration, already having a pipeline to acquire more as well. And secondly, I think the podcasting model is ultimately what will help them. This was a model that I was initially skeptical about for years, just in terms of whether or not Spotify would be able to actually make it work and become the dominant player in audio.

[00:25:01] Dan Runcie: But the reason that I think they're probably going to be better off is because of the actual data that they could offer both advertisers and listening and podcasters as well. And this is going back to opportunities that Apple didn't necessarily capture at the time, if you think about the fact that most podcasting is essentially just an RSS feed and a lot of people are sharing monthly podcast downloads and things like that.

[00:25:25] Dan Runcie: And if you look at some of the podcasts, especially some of the ones that were most popular, 2016 when podcasts would really start to take off. A lot of those listeners may not necessarily be actively listening, like it could be background downloads. That's where Spotify wins, because they can actually have that clear data to show who's listening to what. They acquired two companies, Chartable and Podsights, that are both analyzing and having the better data in this space. So the, we're leading to a future where Spotify eventually is going to be able to, I think, dominate the space because they're able to make the better pitch to advertisers. Come here, get a more direct way to reach your audience.

[00:26:03] Dan Runcie: And I think if the numbers do continue to grow, I think they will be better off. So of course this is not investment advice, to be clear for anyone. But I do think that between the two of these, that Spotify is probably the company that's in the better position. And it's funny cause this isn't always a, a thought that I would have had of course, two completely different business models.

[00:26:22] Dan Runcie: Netflix is fixed. Spotify is variable, but I do think that over time, relatively speaking, it still has plenty of hurdles to get through, but it feels like that's where the opportunity is. 

[00:26:34] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, absolutely. I think I totally agree with you there. 

[00:26:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And I mean, with that, another piece that people have brought up as well as content as well. What are your thoughts on Netflix's content? Because I know that's a piece where people have often said, well, if you're just going to make shows, like, Is It Cake? and stuff like that, then why am I going to pay money for the service and the fact that they haven't necessarily had as many true franchises or any repeatable types of things.

[00:27:00] Dan Runcie: In my opinion, a lot of the things that have taken off from Spotify have, or not from Spotify, from Netflix. Sometimes it almost feels like it's like flashes and bottles that catch off a bit unexpectedly, whether it's like a Bird Box or a Squid Game, or Making A Murderer, things like that. Like it doesn't have the same feeling of, okay, you don't, this big HBO show is going to come and dominate like it does.

[00:27:23] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, you know, I mean, I think Netflix has just done such a good job of going out and just acquiring tons and tons of content. Right. And, you know, given their model, they pay out a lot, you know, then people have been talking over the past, however many years, like, oh, Netflix spent X billion dollars on content.

[00:27:41] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: How are they going to sustain it? But when you're acquiring that much stuff, it's like, you have all these lotto tickets and when something takes off, you know, I think in most cases you're not having to pay a lot of it back, you know, on the backend like you would with, you know, obviously Spotify ends up paying back, you know, a huge percentage of what comes in back to the labels and to the artists.

[00:28:01] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think that the model. Netflix, has there are sort of like a lot higher upside when something works? I mean, I guess with Spotify, they're trying to emulate that on the podcasting side, but you know, it would seem to me that when Netflix has, you know, a TV show that takes off just out of nowhere, I mean, something like Squid Game, the amount of new subscribers they sign up are just, you know, so much more than, than you'd get with a hit podcast. So, I mean, you know, in a way I think what I'm most curious to see is how much will Spotify continue to try to emulate Netflix. Now that Netflix is sort of in a, you know, questionable phase and do they just kind of, you know, try to double down on the music aspect because the other piece of it that we haven't talked about, you know, when you're going out and acquiring content and you were paying for it specifically like to have it named and everything you become, you know, an arbiter of culture and taste also, you know, right and wrong of what is hate speech of what is, you know, all kinds of things. And that's like a huge pain in the ass to figure out, right, as we learned with the whole Spotify, Joe Rogan, Neil young situation.

[00:29:06] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And. Yeah. I never thought that Neil Young being off of Spotify was gonna ruin Spotify. And I don't really think very many people did, but you know, it did go to show that there's a, an amount of energy that has to go into defending some decisions once, once you are acquiring content versus sure, I mean, if you have artists on your platform and you know, they do something terrible, you may have to make a decision to try to pull them off. But, you know, I think generally as a society, we've moved away from pressuring people to sort of deplatform musicians for making, you know, offensive music or something like that, music that some people find offensive.

[00:29:42] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And even for, you know, some of the most controversial musicians, you know, it's super rare that their music is pulled down. So I just think that there's a lot more editorial energy that goes into obviously Netflix, but, you know, Spotify emulating Netflix in the podcasting space, that becomes a whole new headache with like a lot of unknown unknowns.

[00:29:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I do wonder now that it's, you know, perhaps less of a growth area. Will Spotify continue to follow that path? 

[00:30:04] Dan Runcie: Yeah. That's a great point. We had not touched on this piece of it. And I think that in a lot of ways it does mean it's more workforce, something like a company like Spotify. Netflix can pretty easily, at least I would hope so, identify the movies that have these issues, and we've already seen some of them have disclaimers, but there's a bit of a removedness from it because of just how they go about their deals versus Spotify. You just see the blind spots where someone that literally goes and finds all of the clips of Joe Rogan saying the N-word, putting that together.

[00:30:38] Dan Runcie: And then that's what sparks the controversy. You would have hoped that the company themselves would have been looking at the content. And then it makes you think, are people really responding to the issue itself? By people, I mean, the company like Spotify, are they really responding to the issue itself or are they responding to the public outcry over the issue?

[00:30:54] Dan Runcie: And that could, you know, be an ongoing conversation, but that's where I do think that there needs to be much more editorial oversight and understanding that if you are going to be, it's one thing to say that you're an open platform that anyone can put music on. Anyone can put, upload their music too, but when you're exclusively paying someone or licensing their content, it changes the dynamic of the relationship.

[00:31:18] Dan Runcie: And I know that they try to make the distinction. Yes. we are licensing Joe Rogan's content as opposed to acquiring it. But the example I always bring back to people it's like, okay, well, let's explore that scenario then, let's say that this was Bill Simmons, who now works for Spotify because you acquired his company and we found those clips of him saying those things. Would you then have treated this situation differently? I don't know the answer to that situation, but Spotify is implying that they would, but I don't know. 

[00:31:47] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. It's a gray area. And the more you get into, the deeper you get into editorial, the less profitable it is, I say, as a journalist.

[00:31:54] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think that, you know, some of these companies are learning that the hard way. 

[00:31:58] Dan Runcie: Couldn't agree more. And while we're on the note of Spotify, let's switch gears again and let's talk about the current king of Spotify, right? Bad Bunny. It is been really cool, and refreshing to see an artist outside of the US dominate on a platform like this.

[00:32:13] Dan Runcie: I think that his success has really shown what's possible now in a way, I think that he's the greatest success story of the streaming era. I really do. I mean, when you think about what he was able to do, where he was six years ago, I've written about it in a recent newsletter about how six years ago, he's bagging groceries at a local grocery store in Puerto Rico.

[00:32:36] Dan Runcie: And then now he's a superstar. He was on stage at the Super Bowl. He's going to have this old Marvel movie, tops every chart possible. It's like that Kurt Warner underdog story from him starting off as a grocery bagger and then did his Arena Football. But imagine if Kurt Warner had the career of Peyton Manning and actually went on to, you know, dominate years and years, it's impressive. What do you think about Bad Bunny and what he's been able to do? 

[00:33:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Ah, I think it's incredible. I mean, and I think it also, it shows the democratization that has been brought about by streaming and what's that Jay-Z line? Men lie, women lie, numbers don't. And you know, you can have your charts for whatever publication and you can have all this and that and their formulas and stuff like that.

[00:33:18] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: But, you know, it's all very convoluted and, you know, it's, it's usually one way or the other. It's engineered to sort of favor the, those who are already sort of big names, but when you have the numbers, it shows up on Spotify and regardless of where you are on whatever other chart, I mean, the fact is that more people are listening to your music than they're listening to anybody else's music and it's objectively true. You can see it in Spotify and the numbers don't lie. And so Bad Bunny, I think, you know, was able to come up from, you know, in this incredible underdog story, you know, to get there and there's proof, right? I mean, there's proof in a way that there might not have been, you know, before the streaming era.

[00:33:56] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think another thing about Bad Bunny that, you know, certainly in my time at Forbes, we would look, we've scoured the world to find and do our list of the top-earning musicians. And I did that list this past year for Rolling Stone, but, you know, it was just all old rockers selling their catalogs basically.

[00:34:14] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And I think, you know, a function of that is that the pandemic has just greatly disrupted touring, which would kind of like traditionally be the thing that would get you up on one of these lists. And, you know, I think now that the pandemic is kind of easing up and tours are really starting to happen again, you know, we're seeing Bad Bunny be able to sell out stadiums, you know, I mean, he is really on that level in terms of, you know, people putting their money where their mouth is. So I think that next step is going to be, as we start to see these totals from his tour in combination, you know, with the streaming dollars and Marvel and all these other things that are going to come along with it, you know, he's going to start to climb up these earnings lists, you know, from a financial perspective as well.

[00:34:56] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So I think that adds a whole other level. You know, sort of like credibility in some cases, when looking at somebody as like a generational superstar, when they sort of have the, you know, the financial success to prove it and to sustain and to, you know, to expand into other fascinating ways. So I'm really curious to see what he does next.

[00:35:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Like, you know, what's his Jay-Z move? What's his Puffy move? Is there going to be something in the spirits business or the cannabis or who knows what, but, you know, personally, as sort of a music business nerd, I'm especially interested to see, you know, what does he do with all this energy and momentum and you know, what direction does he take it in having created this incredible musical empire.

[00:35:36] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's only a matter of time until he's going to top most of those lists, right? You look at the numbers that this tour will likely do. It's likely going to be over 2 or 3 million, if not more, just given the amount of shows that he has and the size of the arenas that he's performing in. And one of the things that I've always thought about with artists from other countries is that there's always been this stigma or thought that in order for them to monetize, it always had to rely much more on brand deals or things like that because the assumption was that the fan bases in these areas may not be willing to necessarily pay as much, but his tours are disproving that just based on the sales numbers, I would need to dig it a little bit further to see, okay, are the dollar amounts in all of the regions similar, but I think he's proving that that isn't necessarily the case. Yeah. If he does want to continue to take this further, what would it look like if he eventually let's say that he continues to do things with the WWE even further? Is he able to have some type of connection there to make that further extend, right? This Marvel character he's going to have in this upcoming movie is a wrestler. What could that potentially look like? If he ends up selling some type of, as you mentioned, some type of spirits or getting involved with something on the business side, the sky really is the limit.

[00:36:52] Dan Runcie: And I think it's one of those unique optionality things where it's up to him and what stuck out to me as well as if we think, just think about his trajectory and what's possible now for a lot of Latin artists, is that he has not done one song in English. Everything that he's done is either been in Spanish or if he did it, then his verses is still in Spanish.

[00:37:15] Dan Runcie: But everyone else is still doing their stuff in English. Like this song. Cardi B from a couple of years ago. But I do think that that's different from even the wave of Latin artists that got mainstream popularity. Let's say 20 years ago, you have Enrique Iglesias, your Mark Anthony or even JLo to some extent, they all had to do albums in English before they were ever given a consideration for that mainstream push or appeal.

[00:37:41] Dan Runcie: Ricky Martin was the same exact way. And I think the fact that he's been able to do on his terms, he's been able to be an advocate as well for both gender norms and for just LGBTQ as well and how he has been just a lot of the causes and things that he cares about. It's really cool to see artists like this.

[00:38:02] Dan Runcie: And I think in some ways the trajectory that Latin artists have been on, especially in the streaming era, kind of reminds me of where hip hop was at a certain point, right? It's like in the early days they wanted those artists to like assimilate to whatever the pop phase was, right? Like the rappers had to do these pop collaborations.

[00:38:21] Dan Runcie: The Latin stars had to do the, you know, US pop star collaborations. Then once they prove they no longer have to assimilate in the same way, then those artists set the trends and now everyone else wants to come to them. And now we're seeing Billie Eilish and Drake and all these other artists doing songs in Spanish, even though that's not their main language, we're just going to see more and more of that.

[00:38:42] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, I mean, and I think that one of the things that Bad Bunny has proven, you know, in some other form, is that if given the opportunity, you know, if you're not sort of, you know, forced to go meet the quote unquote US mainstream market, where it's at, the US mainstream market will actually come to you. You know, and people who don't understand Spanish will still love your music.

[00:39:02] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And, you know, I mean, I don't know. I know a lot of songs in English that I don't understand. Whatever genre, if it's, you know, rock and there's a lot of yelling or if it's, you know, rap and it's like so fast or with like a really deep accent. I don't always catch on but, you know, people respond to music. I mean, it doesn't really matter what's being said, I mean, look at Nirvana, right? Like a lot of the lyrics didn't particularly mean anything, but people just responded to the music and the vibe, the whole thing. So even if you can understand the words, people are going to be attracted to the music. And, you know, I think that he's showing that that holds true even on the tip-top superstar level for sure.

[00:39:38] Dan Runcie: A hundred percent. Excited to see where his career goes, excited to see where he continues to dominate. 

[00:39:43] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Amen to that. And, you know, if have his management too, I'm trying to get him in some consumer-facing startups, because if you're a startup and you're looking for celebrity investors and they know that the market is cooled down at it, but still, you know, you're in a really mature startup. And you're trying to get your name out there a little more by getting, you know, music, investors, celebrities, et cetera. The kind of reach that has, especially if you're trying to get into Spanish language market. It's untoppable. And I just think there's a tremendous opportunity there and in a lot of other places for him too, so. 

[00:40:12] Dan Runcie: Oh, yeah, I'm sure. It should be. All right. Before we wrap this up, we got to talk about this article that you had written very recently about, we're both fellow Yankees fans, and one of the stars we've been most familiar with over the years, Robinson Canó, and you have this idea that you were brought up. I thought it was really interesting and I want for you to talk more. Did Jay-Z ruin Robinson Canó bag? 

[00:40:40] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I kind of posed that question on my Substack and, you know, I think going into it and that the background,I'm going to set the background for anybody who maybe isn't a Yankee fan, but I guess it was eight years ago, Robinson Canó, who at the time was the best player in the Yankees.

[00:40:57] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Everybody thought he was going to resign. He was a free agent. Everybody thought he would come back, think they he's never lose out on a free agent. Jay-Z comes in, takes over as his agent from Scott Boras, who was like, you know, he is to baseball agency as Jay-Z is to hip hop. Jay-Z comes in, gets Canó to come over to Roc Nation, Roc Nation brings on CAA to help them, you know, kind of become, you know, Scott Boras-level players in the game, let's say, and you know, Robinson Canó gets offered seven years, $161 million by the Yankees and the months drag on, nobody else is offering him more. Everybody thinks Jay-Z is getting greedy.

[00:41:34] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And then just out of nowhere, Canó goes to the Mariners for 240 million over 10 years and great deal financially for him. Obviously, it's, you know, like $80 million more than Yankees we're offering and no state income tax in Washington. However, a much worse team, a much worse ballpark for hitters and, you know, five years into the 10-year deal could no, I mean, I think that was when he got suspended for steroids, then he got traded to the Mets.

[00:42:03] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And then he got suspended again last year, 80 games. And he started out this year with the Mets and just earlier this week got cut. And so here's this guy who, you know, so I guess that's my question. If he'd stayed with the Yankees, would all of, all of these miseries have befallen him and should we blame Jay-Z for the misery?

[00:42:22] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: And I think my answer ultimately is, is no, you know, It's going to retire almost a hundred million dollars richer, eventually. From a baseball perspective though, you can argue that things would have been better for him if he'd stayed with the Yankees. And as it turns out, the guy who really kind of led the charge and I reported this in the latest edition of my Jay-Z book, Empire State of Mind, the guy who led the charge for Canó to leave was Brodie Van Wagenen at CAA who then became the GM of the Mets. Traded for Canó, got fired by the new owner of the Mets and is now back working with Jay-Z. And I think working on, on representing Canó again, as he tries to, to latch on with another major league team.

[00:43:00] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So you could kind of blame him, but you know, at the end of the day, I think it really does come down to the player, you know, who makes the decision to take bag, you know, instead of glory, which is, you know, defensible, I think you've got to live and you only have so long to be a professional ballplayer. And, you know, he was the one that took the performance-enhancing drugs, got suspended so, but it is this just sort of like a fascinating winding road, you know, from this decision that happened eight years ago, that's still playing out, that still had all these ramifications. And you look back to that deal. I mean, you know, the fact that Jay-Z, whether it was Jay-Z or CAA, or this guy, Brodie Van Wagenen doing most of the work.

[00:43:37] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Jay-Z, Roc Nation did get credit. And after that you saw Roc Nation really become much more of a force as a professional sports agency. So, you know, certainly, Jay-Z did well for himself in those past eight years. He's a billionaire now. Brodie Van Wagenen has this great new job, and Robinson Canó has that much nicer retirement eventually.

[00:43:58] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: So maybe he lost a chance at eternal glory, but you know, a hundred million dollars is a lot of money. I don't know. Dan, what do you think? 

[00:44:04] Dan Runcie: It's interesting because I've always thought that his career was definitely into replay. I felt like it was typical timing of, okay, this guy's turning 30 and that could be hit or miss for a lot of baseball players, depending on how well they're able to take care of themselves and stay out of injury thing.

[00:44:18] Dan Runcie: The one thing though, and this is a part that I do think gets overlooked sometimes is the ballpark difference. Yankee Stadium, especially in the new Yankee stadium, literally engineered in some ways to get more home runs and just have more, especially more than the old Yankee stadium compared to T-Mobile Park in Seattle, before it was Safeco park, historically picture friendly ballpark.

[00:44:41] Dan Runcie: So if you know what you're getting yourself into, I mean, outside of Griffey and A-Rod in the nineties. I can't necessarily think of people that really like, oh yeah. You know, they cleaned up there. Maybe, you know, you had some early, I'm trying to think of some of the other stars who may have like, done well they're from like a home run hitting perspective, but it's one of those things where you think about the trade-off, right? It's. to some degree, it kind of makes me think about Carmelo Anthony with the Knicks, right? It's like you went to that team, you did get paid and you ended up getting, you know, later on a Supermax. But I think a lot of the decisions that he made show that he was prioritizing more of the money that came through, as opposed to the decisions, why not wait until free agency to then join that team instead of making them all those picks for you. 

[00:45:30] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Exactly.

[00:45:31] Dan Runcie: And in some ways, yeah, I think about the Canó thing, that kinda kind of similarly, right. If you want it to continue to win and you didn't care as much about the money that you would have stayed in New York, but to our point, yeah. You get it a hundred million dollars is a lot, of course, but it's hard to have both, especially with the franchise, in my opinion, that they'll have spurts of having great players here and there, but they haven't necessarily been able to prove that winning this, that Canó was raised in.

[00:45:57] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, and Canó is going to finish up and, you know, even now it looks like he may, he's probably going to catch on with another team, at least for the rest of the year, but he's, I think at 2,600, a little over 2,600 hits for his career, if he had been able to get to 3000, which I think in New York with a better lineup that turned over more, he gets more best, more opportunities to hit.

[00:46:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: There 's a better ballpark for hitters. So more fly balls turn into home runs. It's pretty likely, he would've gotten to 3000 hits or that he'd be within shouting distance of it. Now with, you know, a little more time to go. There has never been a major league baseball player who got 3000 hits who did not end up in the hall of fame once eligible, except for the steroid guys and Pete Rose, who was thrown out of the game for betting on baseball. So it is like an automatic ticket to the hall of fame. So if he had just stayed at Yankee stadium, not done, you know, not on steroids, I think he would have gotten there. No question. And you know, who knows, I mean, seven years into that deal that he would have been what, 37, maybe. You never know if he was still hitting well, they might've brought him back for another year or two. God knows they kept bringing Brett Gardner back. So I do think he would've gotten a few thousand hits and had a really good shot at the hall of fame. And is that worth a hundred million dollars though?

[00:47:16] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: Yeah, I don't know. Probably not. Probably not. He did have such a sweet swing though, man. Watching him play in the Yankees stadium. That was always fun. 

[00:47:25] Dan Runcie: He did it. He was exciting to watch. He had a great career and yeah, I think that's a great note for us to close out with this. Zack, we've covered a bunch in this pod, but basically, we'll have to have another roundup again at some point soon, but thanks for doing this. This is fun.

[00:47:38] Zack O'Malley Greenburg: For sure. Thanks as always.

[00:47:41] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post in your group chat, post in your Slack groups, wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people.

[00:47:56] Dan Runcie: And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2996 no Comedian Bigg Jah Charters His Own Path Into Entertainment Industry https://www.trapital.com/podcast 3.3 million followers on Facebook. Over 423 million views on YouTube. 4.2 million TikTok likes. Bigg Jah (real name Jahdai Pickett) has put up those gaudy social media numbers with no studio or agency backing and a relatively small team. The do-everything entertainer — who can write, act, direct, produce, and everything in between — has been posting content online almost nonstop for the past five years, doing what he calls “hood good comedy.” It’s all paying dividends now.   He’s built a synergy map that extends past his wildly popular social media franchises like “Inner Thoughts” and “The Lesbian Homie.” There’s also merch (with a new piece dropping almost every month) and with the world re-opening, perhaps comedy shows again.   Next, Bigg Jah is trying to parlay his massive social media success into feature films. He originally studied film in college and planned to take the traditional route into the industry — shooting a short film, winning movie festivals, and signing with an agent. But the rise of social media gave Bigg Jah an alternative AND independent route into the business. You’ll want to listen to my interview with Bigg Jah to get more insight into his creative process and meteoric rise on social media. Here’s everything we covered in this Trapital episode: [3:14] What Does “Hood Good Comedy” Mean? [5:36] Lasting Impact Of 90s Comedy Movies  [7:36] Navigating Different Entertainment Mediums (Social Media, Film, Comedy) [11:49] Being Forced To Go The Independent Creator Route [14:59] Acting Vs. Directing Vs. Writing [18:18] How Bigg Jah Chooses What Type Of Content To Make [21:06] What’s Behind Bigg Jah’s Success On Facebook? [23:19] How Bigg Jah Has Leveraged Other Social Networks [26:25] Bigg Jah’s Revenue Breakdown [29:05] The Struggles Of Creator Burnout  [33:56] The Key To Bigg Jah’s Success  [43:55] Upcoming Projects For Bigg Jah [45:44] How To Follow Bigg Jah Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Bigg Jahh, @biggjah   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Bigg Jah: I'm not pressured to keep the series going, because I know that it works. I'm in it to create new stuff and see how it goes. I'm not a slave to the, "Well, this is what works. So let me just keep doing this only." No, I'm gonna push the envelope and push the line and I'm gonna see if they like this too. And what about this? [00:00:15] I'm going to grab this and what if I do this? You know, so I don't have a problem with that. Plus I've done so much. I've done the series thing to a degree now I wanna move on to something else. I want to challenge myself to do another character or another storyline that see if people like that. [00:00:36] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:56] Today's guest is Bigg Jah. He's an actor creator, filmmaker, comedian, and one of the funniest people on the internet, I was first put onto Bigg Jah's work because I got to know Damien Ritter, shout out to Dame. He used to run Funk Volume, and he's now chief operating officer at BeatStars, but he also manages Jah. [00:01:16] And Jah is someone who I think has definitely been one of the more successful, independent creators that I've seen being able to leverage social media, to grow his platform. And now accrue millions of followers on Facebook. And on YouTube. And we talk a lot about how he's built his career. He's someone that first went to school to study film and how he transitioned eventually to wanting to be the person behind the camera. [00:01:43] But realizing that there was a lot of value from him being the person in front of the camera as well. And that's when things really started to take off for him. And we talked about how he approached his comedy, some of the most successful franchises and series that he's had and his bigger ambitions to still be able to do more motion pictures, and do more stuff behind the scenes. [00:02:02] And we talked a lot as well about just how much of a grind it can be for creators to always produce content nonstop and how that's what the algorithms ultimately want you to do. And that's definitely something that I can relate to. I know a lot of people listening to this can relate to as well.  [00:02:17] We also talked about how he looks at running his business, what his team looks like. And so much more, if you are interested in the different levels of the creator economy, there is this essay that I wrote a couple of months back, that overlooked levels of the creator economy. And I talked a lot about the success at each stage. [00:02:34] Jah was one of the people that was featured and mentioned in that article. So I definitely recommend you check that out and Pete this episode, because I think that anyone that. The landscape. You're trying to love a love determine. When do you partner with other companies when you don't? This is the episode for you I had a great chat with him. [00:02:51] Hope you enjoyed it. Here's my conversation with Bigg Jah.  [00:02:55] All right. Today we got the one and only Bigg Jah. He's a comedian, an actor, a filmmaker himself. Jah, welcome to the  [00:03:02] Bigg Jah: Thank you for having me, bro. Appreciate it.  [00:03:05] Dan Runcie: Hey, I've always been a big fan of you, how you've built up your platform, not just on social media, but through touring and putting everything out there. [00:03:14] And one of the things that stuck out to me is your brand. You've referred to yourself as putting out hood good comedy. Can you talk more about that and what that means?  [00:03:23] Bigg Jah: Yeah, man, have a good comedy, bro. Is this I'm from the hood, bro. Hood good means good things come out of the hood, and I'm one of them. So it's just sometimes you being from the hood or growing up in that environment. [00:03:36] It's humble beginnings, tough times. Things that a lot of people wouldn't want to go through, but if you're from here and you grew up this way and you end up, you turn out good, you turned out. Okay. I loved my, I love my upbringing. I love even the hard times. Yeah, it's almost like making lemonade out of lemons.. [00:03:52] You know what I'm saying? So it's hood good comedy. A lot of the times, the stuff I like to talk about or display on camera are things that if you're from the hood, you can relate to, you don't even have to be from the hood to relate to it. But for sure if you're from the hood. You can relate to it. You know what I'm saying? [00:04:07] That's kind of what I make it for everybody, but I make it for specifically, for folks in the hood,  [00:04:12] Dan Runcie: And I think what helps you as well as that, of course, there's a lot of black content that is out there now with Netflix and all these other streaming services. You're able to tell stories and talk about things that aren't going to get covered in those spaces. [00:04:25] And I think that just shows that even though people may think that there's this abundance of content, that's everywhere. Now, you're telling stories through your comedy and through your sketches that you know are not going to get told elsewhere. So you have a good niche for yourself there.  [00:04:40] Bigg Jah: Yeah. Thank you, bro. [00:04:41] It took me a minute to do it consistently. I've always wanted to do this type of stuff, this type of content, but growing up, watching Martin, you know, the Jamie Fox show or the woods, Don't Be a Menace to Society, all those different shows and movies, Harlem Nights, Eddie Murphy, like Boomerang. [00:05:01] Those films definitely influenced me into doing what I do now. And so I feel like you watch Friday that Friday show the movie Friday is specifically for the hood. Anybody could like it. Anybody can find value in it and find humor in it, but for sure the hood is going to love it because it's exactly where we come from. [00:05:18] It tells the story, it tells our story. When I had the opportunity to do that, I wanted to do the same.  [00:05:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And those movies you mentioned, and the TV shows too, they all hit this error that I feel like a lot of us grew up with that we saw on TV, right? The nineties had such a Renaissance for not just black entertainment, but comedy too. [00:05:36] I mean, thinking about even you mentioning the way, a lot of people may not think about that as a traditional comedy, but it's a coming of age story. Everyone remembers what it's like going to prom or going through any of those experiences.  [00:05:48] Bigg Jah: For me, for sure. A hundred percent for that boy. It was it's funny because I remember going through almost every single thing in that movie I experienced as a kid growing up. [00:05:57] So yeah, that's why the woods is a classic for me. I would love to create something like that for myself, for the people in other versions of. The Hood Good stories and stuff like that. So, yeah.  [00:06:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because now we're in this space where they're starting to make sequels of all those right. Cause best man came out right around the same time as the wood and that best man holiday. [00:06:19] And I think I saw something they're trying to put out another one of these know  [00:06:23] Bigg Jah: that series is dope. I think that cast is so strong. They can do a part three and as long as it's just that. And then the next thing someone else is getting married or someone's going through a divorce, or if someone's having a baby shower or something, I think you can do more, are turned into a TV show or something about that. [00:06:39] Cash is so dope. I think, I think a baby could do it. And I think all the actors in that movie wouldn't mind doing the series. You know what I'm saying? Because they all doing their thing, but I'm sure that'd be a great opportunity for them to really get back on camera together and consider.  [00:06:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. One of the things about your career that I think is a bit more unique from maybe that generation of stars is they very much were trained to perfect how they were on screen, right. [00:07:08] They're either going to be in TV or in movies. Your career's a little different because you have to. Be a face on social media, you're doing your stand-up. You have your specials, your movies, and then even your own touring. And I got to imagine that there was a bit of maneuvering there between each of those areas. [00:07:25] You're not trying to get pigeonholed, but you also know that you need to have exposure in each of those. What has it been like navigating each of those areas, but knowing that they're all part of how you run and do what you do  [00:07:36] Bigg Jah: It's still a challenge. it's lovely. It's a beautiful struggle, man. That's crazy. [00:07:40] Cause I went to film school to learn how to make films. And then I started doing comedy. Then I went and did comedy. I started pursuing comedy when I moved back to LA. And I was trying to make it as a comic, still trying to make it as a comic and, you know, get on tours, open up for different comics, get the, be, become a stronger comic, get my hour going. [00:08:04] And it was moving by the snail's pace. I was growing as a comic. But I just wasn't professionally growing as a comic. And then it dawned on me, like once I started reaching back and grabbing my film information, my film degree, and working on films and sketches and just doing content like that, it took my comedy and it boosted it. [00:08:23] And then fast forward, a lot of things are, are, I wouldn't say fast-forwarded. I think it brought me up to speed with my comedy, you know, because the biggest thing about comedy, no matter how funny you are, if you can't get butts on the seats. No one cares, you know, promoters don't care and you don't care either. [00:08:38] If you throw a show and no one comes then you don't really have a show. Cause you probably still gonna perform. But you know, it's just being a filmmaker and a comedian at the same time allows me to A. Interchange both. So if I think of a funny sketch, a lot of the time I'll put that sketch on stage and talk about the sketch as the comedy bit. [00:08:58] But most of my sketches come from comedy. Anyhow, come from my stage work. So I have a joke about certain things word plays. The whole crew is stupid, came from a joke on stage. The lesbian homie came from a joke on stage, you know? Yeah, man. So I think it worked in my favor at first. I was doing one or the other. [00:09:15] Now I'm doing both, you know, so  [00:09:17] Dan Runcie: yeah. And I figured what that, to each of these, it gives you an opportunity to just get that quick feedback. You can then turn that into however you're going to make the actual longer form content itself. You put something on social media, you see the engagement, that's your feedback. [00:09:32] You're doing something on tour. You see how the crowd reacts. You see, okay. There are differences with the crowd in this city versus that city. And then each of those things I'm sure gives you the confidence. You'd be like, okay, if we're going to spend several weeks or several months putting this project together. [00:09:47] I know this is going to hit because of what I saw from the responsible people.  [00:09:51] Bigg Jah: Right? True. Yeah. The social media is great for that, you know, instantly whether or not it is funny or not, or you can find out instantly whether it's funny or not. And even if you don't find it, that it's funny right away doesn't mean it's not funny. [00:10:04] I refuse to believe. Social media is the only way to gauge whether a joke is funny or not. It's a good way because the people laughing at me and it's funny. And what I'm saying, if people don't laugh, I mean, they're not laughing yet in my opinion, but yeah. So I navigated through both, you know, stand up comedy, sketch comedy, and then I'm moving on to feature films. [00:10:23] Eventually that's the goal. That's the immediate goal, you know? So yeah. [00:10:27] Dan Runcie: let's talk more about that immediate goal. People could probably look at your career from outside it and be like, oh, he's killing it independently. He's doing his thing. He has things in motion and you've definitely hit one of those higher levels of being someone that has their platform and being able to just do bigger things with it. [00:10:47] But you're still like, no, you want to be able to do the feature films and you want to be able to do bigger, bigger things. Can you talk about that? The difference there, because I know. There was likely a stage maybe from where you may have been several years ago, where the point you're at now would have been like, oh, this is where I really want to be able to get to. [00:11:04] Right. And then now it's about what it looks like for that next level of being able to do more motion pictures.  [00:11:13] Bigg Jah: And so my goal was to, in a perfect world, create a film, enter into a film festival when it wins several film, festivals, booking agent, you know what I'm saying? That, and then getting to the point where I'm in a position to create, write and direct my own films. [00:11:29] And that's the typical way I believe, you know, but then this thing called social media came and it took me a while to really buy into it. That's what changed my world and my mindset. A lot of the time I was trying to be an employee. I was trying to be a writer for sketch comedy network or a writer for Fox or writer for ADD or something like that. [00:11:49] So I was trying to pitch me. I was pitching myself to, you know, what the funny was back in the day, which is the Waynes Brothers and whatnot that was sitting in the offices, just trying to say, oh, look at the sketch. I did look at this, read my script. And no one really took hold of it. No one really long story short note, and everyone said, no, they didn't say no. No, we not going to mess with you, but they didn't hire me. [00:12:10] They didn't put me in a position in their company to thrive or just become a team player. So eventually I got to the point where I was like, I got to do this myself. And so let me start a page from scratch, put my name on it and started making them for the first sketch and the second sketch and the third and fourth and keep it going as opposed to, because most of my sketches, especially in the first year, Most of my sketches were sketches that I wrote for ADD or for other platforms. [00:12:35] And there was a rifle with me at first, you know, and so a shout out to them. I said, I know a lot of people over there and so I love it. But, it was a blessing in disguise me not like selling my, my scripts over there or getting hired to be a director over there, forced me into doing my own thing. And I'm much rather we would be doing this than anything else. [00:12:54] So, uh, the feature film thing. I also still want to state, I would love to be independent, an independent filmmaker that makes what I want to make. And at the times, and the pacing that I wouldn't make it. But my goal was to always make films and TV. So I went to school for that. [00:13:09] And when I came across social media, it was, it's not, I would say it's a step back, cause it's not, it's a step across. It's another way of getting to where I want to go. And it took me some years to figure that out. But, uh, I did so myself putting sketches or sort of spending months of making a short film or many months trying to make a feature and trying to get the funding for, to produce a feature or short. [00:13:34] let me just take this camera that I have and my equipment that I already have and start shooting the small vignettes. So small sketches cause people doing anyways, small sketches and it's keep doing that until something happens and something happened. It was a fan base and a fan base is the most important thing to any entertainer. [00:13:51] Singer writer, poet offer dancer. You build a fan base. That's the most important thing, in my opinion. Because at that point you have people who love what you do, you know, and you don't need, you don't need a producer or a studio to say yes to do what you want to do. I can move right now by myself. [00:14:09] And it took me a while to get to this point. It's a blessing that people do, like what I do, and they do support. Like I said, it's, it's way more gratifying than making someone else's dream come true. [00:14:20] Dan Runcie: It's powerful, especially to be able to do it on your own. And you saw it, it was like you tried to break out initially and they weren't feeling it at first, but now that you have a bit more clout and leverage, you can do the same thing yourself. [00:14:34] And in that space, I'm sure it's a bit of this distinction where you're wearing multiple hats. You're the lead person as the comic and the creator and the face of the brand. You also want to be the filmmaker, the person that can direct and put everything together. Do you feel as if people are always seeing you in that light or do you feel like you may have to remind people? [00:14:55] No. No. I'm also interested in this other aspect as well. [00:14:59] Bigg Jah: As far as acting and producing and directing. Okay. So one thing I will say this, when I will create different things, whether it was a short film or, or just a piece of content, a lot of the time I was writting it and I was directing it and I was shooting it, and that was getting other actors. [00:15:15] To begin it and building it that way. And no one really out would put it online. Nobody would really follow it or watch it. And maybe because it was just too soon, then back in 2017, I decided, let me put myself on camera, have someone from me doing all the funny stuff I'm writing for other people. Let me do, let me do the funny stuff. [00:15:32] And that was already an actor. I have an agent and I've been acting since 2009. So it was not like I was just a director writer. I was after as well, but I didn't care when it came to my projects, I was seeing other people play these roles. And I was working under the hat of writer director. And then it got to the point where, all right, you can't really rely on people, especially when you have no money and limited resources and limited time. [00:15:56] So you have to start doing things yourself. And so I said, okay, cool. I'm gonna have to find somebody who rocks with me, who cares about what I do and asked him to shoot me, just hold the camera, push record and just make sure it's steady and I'm going in front of the camera and then I'm going to be the funny, and that's when things start picking up, that's when things took off. [00:16:12] So to answer your question about reminding people that are, yeah, I mean, honestly, I would love to, as much as I love being in front of a camera and telling jokes and being funny and being silly. I would love to just write and direct sometimes, sometimes to where it's a project that's produced by me directed by me, but I don't have to be the lead star. [00:16:32] I can just literally sit back and direct the actors and make some dope. So eventually I put on, get into. I think this year, the remainder of this year, I'm wanting to start putting more projects together where I'm not the focal point, but it's the focal point is where people come to see at this point, it's me. [00:16:48] So I would love to get to the point where people would love just to see my content, whether I'm in front of the camera or the main character or not, they just are interested in seeing what I put in. So that's the goal.  [00:16:59] Dan Runcie: That reminds me of something I heard recently from Quinta Brunson from Abbott Elementary. [00:17:04] She had said when she was first pitching the show, she actually did even have herself as the lead in the role. And then the people that at ABC were like, ah, we didn't buy this project without you in this. Like you have to be in this. So it was interesting to hear her experience through that. And I think similarly with you, it'd be interesting to see what. [00:17:24] Continues to do a backpack. Cause I do think that there's this thing where yes, what people may most respond to is seeing the person they're most familiar with. But as the thing expands and grows, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. And I think one of the ways that you've done that, and I think it continue through is that you do have consistent series throughout your content. [00:17:45] You have the lesbian Hovey, you have inner thoughts and some of these. Sketches. And I think in a lot of ways, these are the franchises that you have under your umbrella. And in thinking about that piece, do you ever think about the balance of content, whether you want to continue making shows in those series because you know how popular they are versus tried new series out and doing things, how much do you balance the content play between what you know is already proven versus testing new things? [00:18:18] Bigg Jah: Honestly, I will say over the years, I've gotten more comfortable with this. I've been going back and forth. I've been going, like, for example, when I first did my first big project I did, or my first sketch that really did numbers and really got me some notice was Tiberius, The Hood Man. And then that kind of spread fast and it was going to share it a lot. [00:18:38] And I was like, man, this is dope. And so I did another one. I did a part two. Then I got like an episode three. and episode four and I kept going. I was like, all right, let me fall back and not just do this one character, this one type of a piece of content. Let me do something different. I'm coming to, that was my second, like non-sequitur series. [00:18:56] You know what I'm saying? It just, it was just episode for episode here and there, but I was doing that. So that was a totally different room. It was still Hood Good, but it was, I was a different type of character in Tiberius. I'm this big Debo type character in the I'm coming to. [00:19:08] I'm like this big guy too. You can't hide my size, but pause, but you can. My lady is the bully. My lady is the one punking me and stuff like that. So that was like a two different dynamics there. And, it did well. And then moved on. So I forget the next one. I think that might've been lesbian the next one, but then the whole crew was stupid. [00:19:26] I keep trying to, I was still doing episode one, two and three of this series, one, two, and three of that series. And I was adding on the whole crew was stupid. My inner thoughts, the roommate pays all the bills I kept doing. So I don't have a problem with doing something new because I feel like. I feel like if I'm blessed enough to make these go to the next project, the next different ideas will go to, you know, so that's what I mean about like, yeah. [00:19:48] I'm not pressured to keep the series going, because I know that it works. I'm in it to create new stuff and see how it goes. I'm not a slave slave to the, "Well, this is what works. So let me just keep doing this only." No, I'm gonna push the envelope and push the line and I'm gonna see if they like this too. And what about this? [00:20:04] I'm going to grab this and what if I do this? You know, so I don't have a problem with that. Plus I've done so much. I've done the series thing to a degree now I wanna move on to something else. I want to challenge myself to do another character or another storyline that see if people like that. [00:20:25] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. [00:20:28] Yeah. And that follows with what you said earlier in terms of if you're only doing things for the response. You're not taking into account that some things may not take off on social media, but that doesn't mean that they're not funny. It could be the algorithm doing whatever it's doing that day. You still got to have the confidence in what you're putting out that it's good, and that people are going to resonate with that truth. [00:20:50] One of the other things too, that stuck out to me is that Facebook has been a pretty big channel for you in terms of where you have had a lot of your audience on social media, where there's been a lot of the growth that attraction there. But I also know that Facebook hasn't always been the easiest platform [00:21:06] For a lot of creators to be able to navigate, even though they have the biggest user base out of anyone, how have you been able to make the platform work for you  [00:21:15] Bigg Jah: Well, let me start by saying shout out to Facebook. Facebook has been amazing. It's been a blessing for sure. And I agree with you. They're not the easiest to navigate through. If I had to critique them, which I would say they, the customer service needs to be much better. [00:21:29] Their customer. I think for someone like myself and others, We should have a little bit more love. We should get a little bit more love from them. A little bit more support from Facebook on the do's and don'ts and more and more clarity, you know, and I think that it should be more, we should be handled better, to be honest with you, as far as how that helped my channel go. [00:21:48] And for me, a hundred percent honest with you, I've never strategized. I literally just. I do all the work on my end and I post I don't and well, I will say I do have times where I will. I do strategize in the sense, I will say I'm going to post every day between eight and 10 o'clock 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM. I don't post in the evening time that I posted in the morning and I'm on the west coast. [00:22:10] So if it's. Here in the morning and in LA was 11 o'clock in the morning in New York. So it's still morning. And I posted that. I've been doing that for years. So, and because I'm not really clear on what to do and what not to do with Facebook, it's not very clear. I just do me and hopefully, it works. [00:22:29] So, uh, I do have some hangups here and there, but for the most part, I've been pretty successful as far as getting my content out and they're being overloaded.  [00:22:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's interesting because especially at your level, having millions of followers on the platform and through your page as well, having some type of custom service for someone at your level would make a lot of sense. [00:22:50] Cause I know that that's something that is existing on a lot of the other platforms. And to your point, I don't think any of these platforms have necessarily been perfect. They're always having challenges, but some of them have been more catering to others, but yeah, it's been fascinating to see. With that after Facebook, which other platform would you say has been the most beneficial for you? [00:23:11] I know where your followers are, but more from your perspective, which one have you enjoyed? Both from an engagement and a performance perspective?  [00:23:19] Bigg Jah: Believe it or not. YouTube was my first platform that really no Instagram Instagram was where I started putting my one minute videos on my 15-second videos on the first 15 second videos. [00:23:29] And then they gave us a minute. I started doing one minutes pieces of work. And then I started going on YouTube and then Facebook, YouTube IG, and then Facebook. IG and Facebook at the same time, I think they're together. At least they are now, but I didn't see much. I didn't get that much love on Facebook initially. [00:23:47] It was, most of my success was coming on IG and I think maybe because it's more personal, it's closer. It's right there in your hand. And it's just a little bit more popular than Facebook and YouTube. Ideas, but I started there and then I started really focusing on YouTube first. And then you then Facebook started coming along strong. [00:24:06] And so now I will say Facebook and YouTube, but then IG as far as my success, Tik Tok is there as well. I'm not as strong on Twitter as I should probably be, but it's whether it was there, but mostly. Facebook is my biggest platform. Then YouTube, in this instance, Tik Tok actually, then there's YouTube, then there's Instagram. [00:24:25] So Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. Those are my four biggest platforms and Facebook and YouTube are my biggest. Yeah,  [00:24:32] Dan Runcie: it's interesting because I do think that for. Anyone that is creating content using platforms. There's normally going to be a few that you gravitate the most to, for what your strengths are and where you think works the best for you. [00:24:45] And I think in past interviews you had talked Vine saying like, Hey, there's certain people that are good with six seconds, but that just didn't necessarily work for what I was working with. But. When IG had expanded you at 15 and then 30 seconds of the whole mini you're like, all right, bet. [00:25:01] This is exactly where I need to be. And I think even Twitter, to some extent with that, right? I think that Twitter probably is something that leaves itself a bit more to people reacting to whatever the current thing is. And I don't necessarily look at your comedy in that type of way. Right. So I do feel like you've definitely found the places where you can perform the best and where your audience. [00:25:24] The other question that I had for you though, was around given everything that you do with what you do on social media, what you may do on tour as well. For other people that may be looking at you or where you're at at least independently, what are the rough breakdowns of where your revenue comes from in terms of, from touring, you know, versus other areas. [00:25:45] And it doesn't need to be like specifics more so from a percentage perspective, but how you run the business and where you expect things to come from.  [00:25:53] Bigg Jah: Well, my biggest income, my biggest sources of revenue are from Facebook and YouTube. And then any given month, it would be merch and or brand deals like sponsorships. [00:26:04] So Facebook and YouTube. And then depending on if I have a shirt that I'm selling or has a shirt that people really like. Or as a piece of it is a hat or some type of piece of clothing that I have that people really like at that, I try to come up with something every month or something like that. So depending on the month, it could be, my third revenue could be merch or it could be sponsorships depending on if I, I landed a deal with a brand, with a company and they want to, you know, get this product promoted and they pay me this amount of money. [00:26:31] So it could be brand deals, which are very important too. Especially if your brand deal fits. If it really working and be creative, you can keep that relationship going for awhile for a long time. And that's the goal is to get a working relationship with these, with these companies and let them confide in you and you respect what they do, where they're doing and what they're willing to give and you, and what you're willing to give as far as your expertise and your talent and stuff like that. [00:26:55] And hopefully I'll come to an agreement and get it going for that for the longterm. So I will say merch then brand deals or sometimes brand deals then merch YouTube and Facebook or my business platforms.  [00:27:07] Dan Runcie: Where does touring fit into that?  [00:27:08] Bigg Jah: I haven't toured the 2019. So 2019. This is before the pandemic that it fit in there. [00:27:13] It was good. I had a great time. I loved the tour. My goal was to go back on tour in 2020. I was going to go into every year, but pandemic hit and 2020 was a blur. It was a down year. I caught COVID before the lockdown. I called it before the lockdown. I was in bad shape and then I got better and then it was still, the city was unlocked. [00:27:33] So no one was going anywhere. Then people started touring. But at this point I got to get back to the shooting. That's the other thing is the balancing the two, going back to that first question. I know the first couple of questions you asked about navigating between like comedy, standup comedy and filmmaking and sketch comedy. [00:27:49] The creating it's tough when you. One thing about sketch comedy, our social media creation, it's different from TV and movies because there's off seasons in TV and movies, you can really make movies all year round. Yes. But like with this pilot season, there's like, especially for TV. There's off seasons. [00:28:08] You know, sometimes the city of Hollywood shuts down for a few months, a year, right during the holidays and whatnot as a social content creator, social media content creator. There's no off days. Really, really you have a lot of times you find yourself I'm victim to it too. And it's like racing against the algorithm. [00:28:25] That's the problem. We don't have a network deal where you're getting paid this amount of money to create this. Then, you know, everything's set in stone. You're good. Come to work, do your work. And the season is wrapped. You go do something else. You go to another project and are you going on vacation with social media content creation, you have to create your own vacation and it's tough, but then you look at your numbers. [00:28:45] You look at your pages and your pages. Aren't really going because you're not putting content. That'd be because you're taking a break. It's hard to take a break. Yes. That's one of the biggest challenges I've been any social media creator feels and really relates to like, yeah, that's something that I think everybody can relate to and the constant need, or once our pressure to create. [00:29:05] Social media. It never gets tired of you, or they might get tired of you, but they'll never like they ask enough, they want more, this gets, it's funny. What's next? You know, when the TV show, you know, you got 13 episodes, 10 episodes, and then you got to wait for the off season for them to reshoot some stuff. [00:29:22] And then get back to showing your season two, season three, season four, with episode, whether it was social media content. Hey Jah. That was funny. Hilarious. When's the next case coming? When's the next Lesbian Homie. When's the next Roommate Pays All the Bills. When's the next, you know, Tiberius And then once those down,  [00:29:36] Dan Runcie: it's a grind. [00:29:37] It is, I could speak to that myself and the algorithms don't know you want to take PTO, right? They're not going to be favorable to you when you come back and that's what can make it so tough with it. And I'm sure for you, that's probably a lot of. Thought behind wanting to eventually shift to being less the main person in front of the camera and do a more behind the camera, because then that just frees up a bit more of your time to still be able to leverage what you created, but not need to be as on-demand. . [00:30:06] Bigg Jah: I don't mind it. I love acting. I love creating and I love being in front of the camera, but at the same time, I feel like I could be, I could be even more effective all this love. I see other, I see a lot of talent around me that might not get the recognition unless they're in my video. I'm the, it's my video. [00:30:22] I'll create a storyline and I pull them into the storyline and try to showcase them. And tried to show how talented he or she is and show that to, hopefully they can build their own following off of it or continue building their following. A lot of them already have a following, but they wanna increase it. [00:30:37] So a lot of times I have to take them and put them in my video for them to get as much known as, as they want to get. As opposed to these people are so talented, I would just love just to work with them. I don't have to necessarily have them in my video. I can just, if they have an idea. If they want to do all with my producing it, I would love to eventually my goal is also to create my own films and my own TV shows, but also produce content for other strong creators, other strong actors, actors. [00:31:03] That might not be directors. I see a lot of talented people that put content out and I'm like, I don't like it because I'm very particular about how they convey a story, how to perform dialogue, how to really put a dope, strong scene together in a series of scenes together to make us. [00:31:21] To make a short film, to make a film, to make a TV show episode. And I see a lot of funny, talented people that can act. I can do these things, but they're not director. So it kind of falls flat. I would love to be, I would love to build some kind of conglomerate to where it's me, along with other directors. [00:31:36] That they have access to these strong actors that will help tell their stories. You know what I'm saying?  [00:31:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah. You definitely have the network and the access to these people and being able to create that platform makes a lot of sense. And what it makes me think of is just how people are structuring. [00:31:54] Their team or what their group of people look like. And I'd be curious to hear what that is like on your end. What is your team look like? How many people are working with you on a regular basis to put out your content, to run the business, and what are some of those roles that people currently have with where you are right now? [00:32:14] Okay.  [00:32:14] Bigg Jah: So I could tell you how I started. I started by myself. And my room on my phone, my iPad, and I had cameras. I had cameras equipment cause I was a DP, none, not a professional. I mean, I was a professional DP, but I wasn't in for Hollywood, but I was a DP. I was directing music videos and being hired to shoot weddings, music, videos, short films, sketches. [00:32:36] I was all those things by myself. I had a truck full of equipment, a lot of DIY. And then when I decided to do stuff for myself, like the Bigg Jah brand, I'm pushing big jock. I'm the first guy I had was my boy, Ken Edwin. I ran into Ken. Ken is another comedian, another actor and writer. I've known him for years, but I didn't know that he did content. [00:32:56] So I ran into him about five years ago. I've known him for about eight and then we didn't become real friends until five years. And I saw that he created too, and his stuff was dope. It was super, super creative. I was, I was not when I first saw it and I was like, maybe we need to work. And he come to find out he's just a selfless as I am, anytime I needed someone to shoot, he was there to shoot. [00:33:18] If I needed to use his house. I can come to his house and shoot at his house. If I needed to go to another location, he'd be there with his camera and my camera, and we'll put them together. And he's working. He was the first guy that really supported me in this as far as shooting, even before that, when I was a standup comedian and I just got my first camera and I was on to start shooting for other comedians, my boy, Kraig Smith. [00:33:40] Kraig is like the first guy that really supported me had my back. And it was a team. It was a team of two, me and him when I was writing something directly to him, he was after or whether or not he was trying to network and tell people that we can shoot your projects. And me and him first started doing like a comedy specials, like short comedy specials. [00:33:58] We would have like five, six comics at a time. They would come to a comedy show and we would film them doing their sets. And we did that. I'm talking about almost 10 years ago. So we've been doing this for a long time, and then it kind of evolved into me doing the big stuff and then add into the team. So Ken, my boy, Kraig, my boy Troy around, I ran to Troy working at a sketch house. [00:34:20] We were all creating at this place called the sketch house and he and I were the only ones that actually were doing. On cameras, not just cell phones, everyone else is doing cell phones. He and I were shooting on cameras and we needed somebody to shoot that we didn't have, we had cameras. We didn't have anyone to shoot for us because no one knew how to shoot cameras. [00:34:38] They were all always on their phones. And so we decided to you shoot for me, I shoot for you. And that's how we built that bond. So me, Troy, Kraig, Ken. So I met a lot of these guys doing the work as sketch artists, and we just clicked and we just decided. Okay. Is a group of us. Now is 1, 2, 3, 4 of us. [00:34:59] When you need them at the time where you just shoot, we got one of us gonna shoot for you. One of y'all gotta shoot for me, and that's how the team formed. And that's when we sort of started growing I'm shooting every day. I'm shooting a couple of sketches a day. I'm dropping two or three times a week and my platform is starting to grow. [00:35:14] Cause now I'm flooding. The followers on flooding the supporters that are just, if they love this, you're gonna love this. You're gonna love this. So I was coming out with so many different pieces of content, so many different stories. Cause I had guys that will come bring lights. They were inexpensive. [00:35:29] They were the cheapest lights you can get, but they were there and we just, none of us really had any real money we had. And we had loyalty and that's really the only reason why I got to where I'm at right now, honestly speaking is that the team and, and it wasn't like I had a professional casting, uh, cast director, casting director, or a professional DP or a gaffer. [00:35:50] I just had the homies and we were just supporting each other, shooting all of our sketches together and we was putting out stuff. And then it got to the point where we were all making okay money. We were starting to make a little income from it. And we start, we had to meeting, we had a recent meet every Sunday, every Sunday we used to meet. [00:36:09] And then we got to the point where we were saying, we got to find our individual teams as a team. We had to branch out and get our own shooters, our own editors, our own, this, that, and the other. So we don't have to be balled down weekly. This doing work for you. You know what I'm saying? It's the officer, their stuff, his stuff today, his stuff tomorrow, I Vista somebody showed my stuff on Wednesday and then I'm shooting this stuff on Thursday and vice versa. [00:36:30] Now a week we're all working as grind is great. We're grinding, but we need time to do something else too. You know? And so now I had to regroup my team. I had to rebuild my team. These guys are still around. They're still my brothers. They was at the house today. I mean yesterday, but I had to find my own guy. [00:36:46] That's going to shoot for me as opposed to. Always relying on them because now they gotta be there, but we're all busy. We all got our own things. We've built our platforms. We have our fan bases. We have our algorithm, the race against, you know what I'm saying? So instead of having him take the whole day to fill my stuff, he needs to feel his stuff. [00:37:02] And now we need more than one day each we need 2, 3, 4 days each for the week. You know what I'm saying? So now to answer your question, I have to give you that quick basketball, that long story. My team now is smaller. My glamour, their friends that are there, that I create with they're still here. It's about five of us. [00:37:20] The whole crew was stupid is the show that I was doing. I was on the live show December. I mean, November. October October, November, December of last year, I did a one monthly Inglewood, California. I did a live show where I was so fat. I was so sketches and I was shows that we would do stand up comedy in between the sketches. [00:37:41] And it's about five. And yeah. Five. Yes. So that's the crew, the whole crews who that's their crew. But as far as me shooting now, I have a DP and it's really just me and another guy, me and my boy, Anthony. He was also a director. But once again, you run across people who are selling. And just loyal to the cause. [00:38:01] And he's a director first arrived a director at first that has a strong with the camera and strong with lighting and strong with editing. And he does a lot of those things for me. He does basically, sometimes it's like, for example, we just came, we just finished shooting the second season of lesbian homie. [00:38:18] And he helped me write that he co-wrote it with me. He co-wrote it with me. He de Pete the whole. And he's editing the whole season. So he's really a person that is doing four or five guys jobs. You know what I'm saying? All in one. And it's a blessing. I met him a few years ago. He loves my content and we met basically him as a fan of the content come to find out he had this wealth of knowledge of filmmaking and we became a team. [00:38:43] So he and I together created this whole season two of lesbian homie. And it's probably the best thing I've ever done producing. Written, and he has a lot to do with it. He was, he's an inspirational dude and I'm all about organic relationships. And our relationship is very organic, even though he came to LA and he wanted to meet me because he wanted to let me know what he can do. [00:39:07] And once I'm, once we met clicked, we had the same type of style. So my team is small. Still. My goal is to branch out and delegate some of those, uh, roles that he does to other people. But to be honest with you, I'm particular. You know, I have a certain style that hood good style and how I edit, how I write. [00:39:27] It's hard for me to like, have other people write for me or other people edit my stuff, but I don't have time to do all of this stuff. I've written over 400 sketches. You know what I'm saying? So it gets to the point where I got to delegate some things. So I can't be doing everything myself. My team is small, but I know over the years I've worked on bigger projects and I've done. [00:39:48] I've hired. I do have access to other people who, like I said, I grew up, I came in in this game. Directing and DP work. So I know a lot of other DPS that have camera year and have experience. So when it comes time for me to shoot my actual film, I can have a cast. Wardrobe VP camera assistance, gaffing crew. [00:40:08] I know I have enough resources and a Rolodex of people I can contact when I need to do a full production.  [00:40:13] Dan Runcie: It's impressive. What you've been able to do with the small team. I mean, outside in someone could look and see, I go, I'm sure he has a whole crew of people that are working with this. But like you said, you have people that are wearing multiple hats. [00:40:25] They're shipping in here and there to do things, and that's ultimately how you build. And I think you ultimately do get to the place where. Things kind of continue to expand, but there's also no reason to make things bigger than they need to. Part of the beauty is you being able to be nimble and having a team that appears bigger than it is. [00:40:42] I feel like that's the most powerful position to be in. And for you with that, what's on deck for you for the next few years. Now that things are opening back up now that the pandemic is starting to subside. What do you see for the next couple of years? What are you most excited about? I know you want to get more behind the camera, but is there any specific projects or anything else that we should keep an eye out for?  [00:41:04] Bigg Jah: Yeah. Yes, sir. I don't know when, because I'm still assembling. It's still being written, but I'm wanting to do a film wrapped around the character Tiberius. I'm doing a Tiberius film and I'm excited about that. I think that's going to be a big thing. I hopefully the, I haven't brought Tiberius out in the long run. [00:41:21] And maybe, I'm praying that the supporters, fans, supporters, I call them supportive. Most likely, usually it will still let the idea of becoming that with a movie for type area. So audition still have an agent I saw audition for other roles. And I'm open to do other projects for other companies, other studios, but as far as my stuff, even one or two at one of the two are going to happen. [00:41:44] I'm either going to shoot the film this year are going toward this year. And if I don't shoot this feminist year and I still do go on tour, I want to be, I don't want the film with within the next year. The defendant would be, we made it in the film. So whether, and I can do it independently, like I said, I'm at the point now where I'm, it's a blessing to be able to say, I can just do this myself. [00:42:06] I know how to, I know how to create film, just do it myself. And I have enough people around me, good people who are, are good at what they do to make a dope film.  [00:42:15] Dan Runcie: That's exciting, man. It's good stuff. Good stuff. Hey, Bigg Jah this has been great. Before we let you go, though, where should the chapter audience follow you to keep posted with what you're doing and everything that you got coming up? [00:42:28] Bigg Jah: You can follow me everywhere @Biggjah. B-I-G-G J-A-H. As YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tik Tok, I'll be on Tik Tok doing all kinds of stuff. I'll be dancing around. Naw, I'm not doing too much, but I do a little. I'm on all platforms at Bigg Jah. My website's Biggjah.com. [00:42:51] The Hood Good Store go get your merge. If you want to support, it's all love you. It's love anyways, but go to thehoodgoodstore.com. That's T-H-E-H-O-O-D-G-O-O-D-S-T-O-R-E.COM. That's the https://thehoodgoodstore.com. You can get almost most of the stuff I wear in my sketches. [00:43:09] This is my own company is my own brand and I sell it myself. Much love to you all. If you have any more questions, I got answers.  [00:43:16] Dan Runcie: Good stuff, man. Good stuff, Jah. Appreciate you coming on  [00:43:19] Bigg Jah: Thank you so much, bro.  [00:43:21] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy of the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. [00:43:49] Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 13 May 2022 08:32:03 -0000 Comedian Bigg Jah Charters His Own Path Into Entertainment Industry full Dan Runcie 3.3 million followers on Facebook. Over 423 million views on YouTube. 4.2 million TikTok likes. Bigg Jah (real name Jahdai Pickett) has put up those gaudy social media numbers with no studio or agency backing and a relatively small team. The do-everything entertainer — who can write, act, direct, produce, and everything in between — has been posting content online almost nonstop for the past five years, doing what he calls “hood good comedy.” It’s all paying dividends now.   He’s built a synergy map that extends past his wildly popular social media franchises like “Inner Thoughts” and “The Lesbian Homie.” There’s also merch (with a new piece dropping almost every month) and with the world re-opening, perhaps comedy shows again.   Next, Bigg Jah is trying to parlay his massive social media success into feature films. He originally studied film in college and planned to take the traditional route into the industry — shooting a short film, winning movie festivals, and signing with an agent. But the rise of social media gave Bigg Jah an alternative AND independent route into the business. You’ll want to listen to my interview with Bigg Jah to get more insight into his creative process and meteoric rise on social media. Here’s everything we covered in this Trapital episode: [3:14] What Does “Hood Good Comedy” Mean? [5:36] Lasting Impact Of 90s Comedy Movies  [7:36] Navigating Different Entertainment Mediums (Social Media, Film, Comedy) [11:49] Being Forced To Go The Independent Creator Route [14:59] Acting Vs. Directing Vs. Writing [18:18] How Bigg Jah Chooses What Type Of Content To Make [21:06] What’s Behind Bigg Jah’s Success On Facebook? [23:19] How Bigg Jah Has Leveraged Other Social Networks [26:25] Bigg Jah’s Revenue Breakdown [29:05] The Struggles Of Creator Burnout  [33:56] The Key To Bigg Jah’s Success  [43:55] Upcoming Projects For Bigg Jah [45:44] How To Follow Bigg Jah Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Bigg Jahh, @biggjah   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  TRANSCRIPTION [00:00:00] Bigg Jah: I'm not pressured to keep the series going, because I know that it works. I'm in it to create new stuff and see how it goes. I'm not a slave to the, "Well, this is what works. So let me just keep doing this only." No, I'm gonna push the envelope and push the line and I'm gonna see if they like this too. And what about this? [00:00:15] I'm going to grab this and what if I do this? You know, so I don't have a problem with that. Plus I've done so much. I've done the series thing to a degree now I wanna move on to something else. I want to challenge myself to do another character or another storyline that see if people like that. [00:00:36] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. [00:00:56] Today's guest is Bigg Jah. He's an actor creator, filmmaker, comedian, and one of the funniest people on the internet, I was first put onto Bigg Jah's work because I got to know Damien Ritter, shout out to Dame. He used to run Funk Volume, and he's now chief operating officer at BeatStars, but he also manages Jah. [00:01:16] And Jah is someone who I think has definitely been one of the more successful, independent creators that I've seen being able to leverage social media, to grow his platform. And now accrue millions of followers on Facebook. And on YouTube. And we talk a lot about how he's built his career. He's someone that first went to school to study film and how he transitioned eventually to wanting to be the person behind the camera. [00:01:43] But realizing that there was a lot of value from him being the person in front of the camera as well. And that's when things really started to take off for him. And we talked about how he approached his comedy, some of the most successful franchises and series that he's had and his bigger ambitions to still be able to do more motion pictures, and do more stuff behind the scenes. [00:02:02] And we talked a lot as well about just how much of a grind it can be for creators to always produce content nonstop and how that's what the algorithms ultimately want you to do. And that's definitely something that I can relate to. I know a lot of people listening to this can relate to as well.  [00:02:17] We also talked about how he looks at running his business, what his team looks like. And so much more, if you are interested in the different levels of the creator economy, there is this essay that I wrote a couple of months back, that overlooked levels of the creator economy. And I talked a lot about the success at each stage. [00:02:34] Jah was one of the people that was featured and mentioned in that article. So I definitely recommend you check that out and Pete this episode, because I think that anyone that. The landscape. You're trying to love a love determine. When do you partner with other companies when you don't? This is the episode for you I had a great chat with him. [00:02:51] Hope you enjoyed it. Here's my conversation with Bigg Jah.  [00:02:55] All right. Today we got the one and only Bigg Jah. He's a comedian, an actor, a filmmaker himself. Jah, welcome to the  [00:03:02] Bigg Jah: Thank you for having me, bro. Appreciate it.  [00:03:05] Dan Runcie: Hey, I've always been a big fan of you, how you've built up your platform, not just on social media, but through touring and putting everything out there. [00:03:14] And one of the things that stuck out to me is your brand. You've referred to yourself as putting out hood good comedy. Can you talk more about that and what that means?  [00:03:23] Bigg Jah: Yeah, man, have a good comedy, bro. Is this I'm from the hood, bro. Hood good means good things come out of the hood, and I'm one of them. So it's just sometimes you being from the hood or growing up in that environment. [00:03:36] It's humble beginnings, tough times. Things that a lot of people wouldn't want to go through, but if you're from here and you grew up this way and you end up, you turn out good, you turned out. Okay. I loved my, I love my upbringing. I love even the hard times. Yeah, it's almost like making lemonade out of lemons.. [00:03:52] You know what I'm saying? So it's hood good comedy. A lot of the times, the stuff I like to talk about or display on camera are things that if you're from the hood, you can relate to, you don't even have to be from the hood to relate to it. But for sure if you're from the hood. You can relate to it. You know what I'm saying? [00:04:07] That's kind of what I make it for everybody, but I make it for specifically, for folks in the hood,  [00:04:12] Dan Runcie: And I think what helps you as well as that, of course, there's a lot of black content that is out there now with Netflix and all these other streaming services. You're able to tell stories and talk about things that aren't going to get covered in those spaces. [00:04:25] And I think that just shows that even though people may think that there's this abundance of content, that's everywhere. Now, you're telling stories through your comedy and through your sketches that you know are not going to get told elsewhere. So you have a good niche for yourself there.  [00:04:40] Bigg Jah: Yeah. Thank you, bro. [00:04:41] It took me a minute to do it consistently. I've always wanted to do this type of stuff, this type of content, but growing up, watching Martin, you know, the Jamie Fox show or the woods, Don't Be a Menace to Society, all those different shows and movies, Harlem Nights, Eddie Murphy, like Boomerang. [00:05:01] Those films definitely influenced me into doing what I do now. And so I feel like you watch Friday that Friday show the movie Friday is specifically for the hood. Anybody could like it. Anybody can find value in it and find humor in it, but for sure the hood is going to love it because it's exactly where we come from. [00:05:18] It tells the story, it tells our story. When I had the opportunity to do that, I wanted to do the same.  [00:05:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And those movies you mentioned, and the TV shows too, they all hit this error that I feel like a lot of us grew up with that we saw on TV, right? The nineties had such a Renaissance for not just black entertainment, but comedy too. [00:05:36] I mean, thinking about even you mentioning the way, a lot of people may not think about that as a traditional comedy, but it's a coming of age story. Everyone remembers what it's like going to prom or going through any of those experiences.  [00:05:48] Bigg Jah: For me, for sure. A hundred percent for that boy. It was it's funny because I remember going through almost every single thing in that movie I experienced as a kid growing up. [00:05:57] So yeah, that's why the woods is a classic for me. I would love to create something like that for myself, for the people in other versions of. The Hood Good stories and stuff like that. So, yeah.  [00:06:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because now we're in this space where they're starting to make sequels of all those right. Cause best man came out right around the same time as the wood and that best man holiday. [00:06:19] And I think I saw something they're trying to put out another one of these know  [00:06:23] Bigg Jah: that series is dope. I think that cast is so strong. They can do a part three and as long as it's just that. And then the next thing someone else is getting married or someone's going through a divorce, or if someone's having a baby shower or something, I think you can do more, are turned into a TV show or something about that. [00:06:39] Cash is so dope. I think, I think a baby could do it. And I think all the actors in that movie wouldn't mind doing the series. You know what I'm saying? Because they all doing their thing, but I'm sure that'd be a great opportunity for them to really get back on camera together and consider.  [00:06:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. One of the things about your career that I think is a bit more unique from maybe that generation of stars is they very much were trained to perfect how they were on screen, right. [00:07:08] They're either going to be in TV or in movies. Your career's a little different because you have to. Be a face on social media, you're doing your stand-up. You have your specials, your movies, and then even your own touring. And I got to imagine that there was a bit of maneuvering there between each of those areas. [00:07:25] You're not trying to get pigeonholed, but you also know that you need to have exposure in each of those. What has it been like navigating each of those areas, but knowing that they're all part of how you run and do what you do  [00:07:36] Bigg Jah: It's still a challenge. it's lovely. It's a beautiful struggle, man. That's crazy. [00:07:40] Cause I went to film school to learn how to make films. And then I started doing comedy. Then I went and did comedy. I started pursuing comedy when I moved back to LA. And I was trying to make it as a comic, still trying to make it as a comic and, you know, get on tours, open up for different comics, get the, be, become a stronger comic, get my hour going. [00:08:04] And it was moving by the snail's pace. I was growing as a comic. But I just wasn't professionally growing as a comic. And then it dawned on me, like once I started reaching back and grabbing my film information, my film degree, and working on films and sketches and just doing content like that, it took my comedy and it boosted it. [00:08:23] And then fast forward, a lot of things are, are, I wouldn't say fast-forwarded. I think it brought me up to speed with my comedy, you know, because the biggest thing about comedy, no matter how funny you are, if you can't get butts on the seats. No one cares, you know, promoters don't care and you don't care either. [00:08:38] If you throw a show and no one comes then you don't really have a show. Cause you probably still gonna perform. But you know, it's just being a filmmaker and a comedian at the same time allows me to A. Interchange both. So if I think of a funny sketch, a lot of the time I'll put that sketch on stage and talk about the sketch as the comedy bit. [00:08:58] But most of my sketches come from comedy. Anyhow, come from my stage work. So I have a joke about certain things word plays. The whole crew is stupid, came from a joke on stage. The lesbian homie came from a joke on stage, you know? Yeah, man. So I think it worked in my favor at first. I was doing one or the other. [00:09:15] Now I'm doing both, you know, so  [00:09:17] Dan Runcie: yeah. And I figured what that, to each of these, it gives you an opportunity to just get that quick feedback. You can then turn that into however you're going to make the actual longer form content itself. You put something on social media, you see the engagement, that's your feedback. [00:09:32] You're doing something on tour. You see how the crowd reacts. You see, okay. There are differences with the crowd in this city versus that city. And then each of those things I'm sure gives you the confidence. You'd be like, okay, if we're going to spend several weeks or several months putting this project together. [00:09:47] I know this is going to hit because of what I saw from the responsible people.  [00:09:51] Bigg Jah: Right? True. Yeah. The social media is great for that, you know, instantly whether or not it is funny or not, or you can find out instantly whether it's funny or not. And even if you don't find it, that it's funny right away doesn't mean it's not funny. [00:10:04] I refuse to believe. Social media is the only way to gauge whether a joke is funny or not. It's a good way because the people laughing at me and it's funny. And what I'm saying, if people don't laugh, I mean, they're not laughing yet in my opinion, but yeah. So I navigated through both, you know, stand up comedy, sketch comedy, and then I'm moving on to feature films. [00:10:23] Eventually that's the goal. That's the immediate goal, you know? So yeah. [00:10:27] Dan Runcie: let's talk more about that immediate goal. People could probably look at your career from outside it and be like, oh, he's killing it independently. He's doing his thing. He has things in motion and you've definitely hit one of those higher levels of being someone that has their platform and being able to just do bigger things with it. [00:10:47] But you're still like, no, you want to be able to do the feature films and you want to be able to do bigger, bigger things. Can you talk about that? The difference there, because I know. There was likely a stage maybe from where you may have been several years ago, where the point you're at now would have been like, oh, this is where I really want to be able to get to. [00:11:04] Right. And then now it's about what it looks like for that next level of being able to do more motion pictures.  [00:11:13] Bigg Jah: And so my goal was to, in a perfect world, create a film, enter into a film festival when it wins several film, festivals, booking agent, you know what I'm saying? That, and then getting to the point where I'm in a position to create, write and direct my own films. [00:11:29] And that's the typical way I believe, you know, but then this thing called social media came and it took me a while to really buy into it. That's what changed my world and my mindset. A lot of the time I was trying to be an employee. I was trying to be a writer for sketch comedy network or a writer for Fox or writer for ADD or something like that. [00:11:49] So I was trying to pitch me. I was pitching myself to, you know, what the funny was back in the day, which is the Waynes Brothers and whatnot that was sitting in the offices, just trying to say, oh, look at the sketch. I did look at this, read my script. And no one really took hold of it. No one really long story short note, and everyone said, no, they didn't say no. No, we not going to mess with you, but they didn't hire me. [00:12:10] They didn't put me in a position in their company to thrive or just become a team player. So eventually I got to the point where I was like, I got to do this myself. And so let me start a page from scratch, put my name on it and started making them for the first sketch and the second sketch and the third and fourth and keep it going as opposed to, because most of my sketches, especially in the first year, Most of my sketches were sketches that I wrote for ADD or for other platforms. [00:12:35] And there was a rifle with me at first, you know, and so a shout out to them. I said, I know a lot of people over there and so I love it. But, it was a blessing in disguise me not like selling my, my scripts over there or getting hired to be a director over there, forced me into doing my own thing. And I'm much rather we would be doing this than anything else. [00:12:54] So, uh, the feature film thing. I also still want to state, I would love to be independent, an independent filmmaker that makes what I want to make. And at the times, and the pacing that I wouldn't make it. But my goal was to always make films and TV. So I went to school for that. [00:13:09] And when I came across social media, it was, it's not, I would say it's a step back, cause it's not, it's a step across. It's another way of getting to where I want to go. And it took me some years to figure that out. But, uh, I did so myself putting sketches or sort of spending months of making a short film or many months trying to make a feature and trying to get the funding for, to produce a feature or short. [00:13:34] let me just take this camera that I have and my equipment that I already have and start shooting the small vignettes. So small sketches cause people doing anyways, small sketches and it's keep doing that until something happens and something happened. It was a fan base and a fan base is the most important thing to any entertainer. [00:13:51] Singer writer, poet offer dancer. You build a fan base. That's the most important thing, in my opinion. Because at that point you have people who love what you do, you know, and you don't need, you don't need a producer or a studio to say yes to do what you want to do. I can move right now by myself. [00:14:09] And it took me a while to get to this point. It's a blessing that people do, like what I do, and they do support. Like I said, it's, it's way more gratifying than making someone else's dream come true. [00:14:20] Dan Runcie: It's powerful, especially to be able to do it on your own. And you saw it, it was like you tried to break out initially and they weren't feeling it at first, but now that you have a bit more clout and leverage, you can do the same thing yourself. [00:14:34] And in that space, I'm sure it's a bit of this distinction where you're wearing multiple hats. You're the lead person as the comic and the creator and the face of the brand. You also want to be the filmmaker, the person that can direct and put everything together. Do you feel as if people are always seeing you in that light or do you feel like you may have to remind people? [00:14:55] No. No. I'm also interested in this other aspect as well. [00:14:59] Bigg Jah: As far as acting and producing and directing. Okay. So one thing I will say this, when I will create different things, whether it was a short film or, or just a piece of content, a lot of the time I was writting it and I was directing it and I was shooting it, and that was getting other actors. [00:15:15] To begin it and building it that way. And no one really out would put it online. Nobody would really follow it or watch it. And maybe because it was just too soon, then back in 2017, I decided, let me put myself on camera, have someone from me doing all the funny stuff I'm writing for other people. Let me do, let me do the funny stuff. [00:15:32] And that was already an actor. I have an agent and I've been acting since 2009. So it was not like I was just a director writer. I was after as well, but I didn't care when it came to my projects, I was seeing other people play these roles. And I was working under the hat of writer director. And then it got to the point where, all right, you can't really rely on people, especially when you have no money and limited resources and limited time. [00:15:56] So you have to start doing things yourself. And so I said, okay, cool. I'm gonna have to find somebody who rocks with me, who cares about what I do and asked him to shoot me, just hold the camera, push record and just make sure it's steady and I'm going in front of the camera and then I'm going to be the funny, and that's when things start picking up, that's when things took off. [00:16:12] So to answer your question about reminding people that are, yeah, I mean, honestly, I would love to, as much as I love being in front of a camera and telling jokes and being funny and being silly. I would love to just write and direct sometimes, sometimes to where it's a project that's produced by me directed by me, but I don't have to be the lead star. [00:16:32] I can just literally sit back and direct the actors and make some dope. So eventually I put on, get into. I think this year, the remainder of this year, I'm wanting to start putting more projects together where I'm not the focal point, but it's the focal point is where people come to see at this point, it's me. [00:16:48] So I would love to get to the point where people would love just to see my content, whether I'm in front of the camera or the main character or not, they just are interested in seeing what I put in. So that's the goal.  [00:16:59] Dan Runcie: That reminds me of something I heard recently from Quinta Brunson from Abbott Elementary. [00:17:04] She had said when she was first pitching the show, she actually did even have herself as the lead in the role. And then the people that at ABC were like, ah, we didn't buy this project without you in this. Like you have to be in this. So it was interesting to hear her experience through that. And I think similarly with you, it'd be interesting to see what. [00:17:24] Continues to do a backpack. Cause I do think that there's this thing where yes, what people may most respond to is seeing the person they're most familiar with. But as the thing expands and grows, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. And I think one of the ways that you've done that, and I think it continue through is that you do have consistent series throughout your content. [00:17:45] You have the lesbian Hovey, you have inner thoughts and some of these. Sketches. And I think in a lot of ways, these are the franchises that you have under your umbrella. And in thinking about that piece, do you ever think about the balance of content, whether you want to continue making shows in those series because you know how popular they are versus tried new series out and doing things, how much do you balance the content play between what you know is already proven versus testing new things? [00:18:18] Bigg Jah: Honestly, I will say over the years, I've gotten more comfortable with this. I've been going back and forth. I've been going, like, for example, when I first did my first big project I did, or my first sketch that really did numbers and really got me some notice was Tiberius, The Hood Man. And then that kind of spread fast and it was going to share it a lot. [00:18:38] And I was like, man, this is dope. And so I did another one. I did a part two. Then I got like an episode three. and episode four and I kept going. I was like, all right, let me fall back and not just do this one character, this one type of a piece of content. Let me do something different. I'm coming to, that was my second, like non-sequitur series. [00:18:56] You know what I'm saying? It just, it was just episode for episode here and there, but I was doing that. So that was a totally different room. It was still Hood Good, but it was, I was a different type of character in Tiberius. I'm this big Debo type character in the I'm coming to. [00:19:08] I'm like this big guy too. You can't hide my size, but pause, but you can. My lady is the bully. My lady is the one punking me and stuff like that. So that was like a two different dynamics there. And, it did well. And then moved on. So I forget the next one. I think that might've been lesbian the next one, but then the whole crew was stupid. [00:19:26] I keep trying to, I was still doing episode one, two and three of this series, one, two, and three of that series. And I was adding on the whole crew was stupid. My inner thoughts, the roommate pays all the bills I kept doing. So I don't have a problem with doing something new because I feel like. I feel like if I'm blessed enough to make these go to the next project, the next different ideas will go to, you know, so that's what I mean about like, yeah. [00:19:48] I'm not pressured to keep the series going, because I know that it works. I'm in it to create new stuff and see how it goes. I'm not a slave slave to the, "Well, this is what works. So let me just keep doing this only." No, I'm gonna push the envelope and push the line and I'm gonna see if they like this too. And what about this? [00:20:04] I'm going to grab this and what if I do this? You know, so I don't have a problem with that. Plus I've done so much. I've done the series thing to a degree now I wanna move on to something else. I want to challenge myself to do another character or another storyline that see if people like that. [00:20:25] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. [00:20:28] Yeah. And that follows with what you said earlier in terms of if you're only doing things for the response. You're not taking into account that some things may not take off on social media, but that doesn't mean that they're not funny. It could be the algorithm doing whatever it's doing that day. You still got to have the confidence in what you're putting out that it's good, and that people are going to resonate with that truth. [00:20:50] One of the other things too, that stuck out to me is that Facebook has been a pretty big channel for you in terms of where you have had a lot of your audience on social media, where there's been a lot of the growth that attraction there. But I also know that Facebook hasn't always been the easiest platform [00:21:06] For a lot of creators to be able to navigate, even though they have the biggest user base out of anyone, how have you been able to make the platform work for you  [00:21:15] Bigg Jah: Well, let me start by saying shout out to Facebook. Facebook has been amazing. It's been a blessing for sure. And I agree with you. They're not the easiest to navigate through. If I had to critique them, which I would say they, the customer service needs to be much better. [00:21:29] Their customer. I think for someone like myself and others, We should have a little bit more love. We should get a little bit more love from them. A little bit more support from Facebook on the do's and don'ts and more and more clarity, you know, and I think that it should be more, we should be handled better, to be honest with you, as far as how that helped my channel go. [00:21:48] And for me, a hundred percent honest with you, I've never strategized. I literally just. I do all the work on my end and I post I don't and well, I will say I do have times where I will. I do strategize in the sense, I will say I'm going to post every day between eight and 10 o'clock 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM. I don't post in the evening time that I posted in the morning and I'm on the west coast. [00:22:10] So if it's. Here in the morning and in LA was 11 o'clock in the morning in New York. So it's still morning. And I posted that. I've been doing that for years. So, and because I'm not really clear on what to do and what not to do with Facebook, it's not very clear. I just do me and hopefully, it works. [00:22:29] So, uh, I do have some hangups here and there, but for the most part, I've been pretty successful as far as getting my content out and they're being overloaded.  [00:22:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's interesting because especially at your level, having millions of followers on the platform and through your page as well, having some type of custom service for someone at your level would make a lot of sense. [00:22:50] Cause I know that that's something that is existing on a lot of the other platforms. And to your point, I don't think any of these platforms have necessarily been perfect. They're always having challenges, but some of them have been more catering to others, but yeah, it's been fascinating to see. With that after Facebook, which other platform would you say has been the most beneficial for you? [00:23:11] I know where your followers are, but more from your perspective, which one have you enjoyed? Both from an engagement and a performance perspective?  [00:23:19] Bigg Jah: Believe it or not. YouTube was my first platform that really no Instagram Instagram was where I started putting my one minute videos on my 15-second videos on the first 15 second videos. [00:23:29] And then they gave us a minute. I started doing one minutes pieces of work. And then I started going on YouTube and then Facebook, YouTube IG, and then Facebook. IG and Facebook at the same time, I think they're together. At least they are now, but I didn't see much. I didn't get that much love on Facebook initially. [00:23:47] It was, most of my success was coming on IG and I think maybe because it's more personal, it's closer. It's right there in your hand. And it's just a little bit more popular than Facebook and YouTube. Ideas, but I started there and then I started really focusing on YouTube first. And then you then Facebook started coming along strong. [00:24:06] And so now I will say Facebook and YouTube, but then IG as far as my success, Tik Tok is there as well. I'm not as strong on Twitter as I should probably be, but it's whether it was there, but mostly. Facebook is my biggest platform. Then YouTube, in this instance, Tik Tok actually, then there's YouTube, then there's Instagram. [00:24:25] So Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. Those are my four biggest platforms and Facebook and YouTube are my biggest. Yeah,  [00:24:32] Dan Runcie: it's interesting because I do think that for. Anyone that is creating content using platforms. There's normally going to be a few that you gravitate the most to, for what your strengths are and where you think works the best for you. [00:24:45] And I think in past interviews you had talked Vine saying like, Hey, there's certain people that are good with six seconds, but that just didn't necessarily work for what I was working with. But. When IG had expanded you at 15 and then 30 seconds of the whole mini you're like, all right, bet. [00:25:01] This is exactly where I need to be. And I think even Twitter, to some extent with that, right? I think that Twitter probably is something that leaves itself a bit more to people reacting to whatever the current thing is. And I don't necessarily look at your comedy in that type of way. Right. So I do feel like you've definitely found the places where you can perform the best and where your audience. [00:25:24] The other question that I had for you though, was around given everything that you do with what you do on social media, what you may do on tour as well. For other people that may be looking at you or where you're at at least independently, what are the rough breakdowns of where your revenue comes from in terms of, from touring, you know, versus other areas. [00:25:45] And it doesn't need to be like specifics more so from a percentage perspective, but how you run the business and where you expect things to come from.  [00:25:53] Bigg Jah: Well, my biggest income, my biggest sources of revenue are from Facebook and YouTube. And then any given month, it would be merch and or brand deals like sponsorships. [00:26:04] So Facebook and YouTube. And then depending on if I have a shirt that I'm selling or has a shirt that people really like. Or as a piece of it is a hat or some type of piece of clothing that I have that people really like at that, I try to come up with something every month or something like that. So depending on the month, it could be, my third revenue could be merch or it could be sponsorships depending on if I, I landed a deal with a brand, with a company and they want to, you know, get this product promoted and they pay me this amount of money. [00:26:31] So it could be brand deals, which are very important too. Especially if your brand deal fits. If it really working and be creative, you can keep that relationship going for awhile for a long time. And that's the goal is to get a working relationship with these, with these companies and let them confide in you and you respect what they do, where they're doing and what they're willing to give and you, and what you're willing to give as far as your expertise and your talent and stuff like that. [00:26:55] And hopefully I'll come to an agreement and get it going for that for the longterm. So I will say merch then brand deals or sometimes brand deals then merch YouTube and Facebook or my business platforms.  [00:27:07] Dan Runcie: Where does touring fit into that?  [00:27:08] Bigg Jah: I haven't toured the 2019. So 2019. This is before the pandemic that it fit in there. [00:27:13] It was good. I had a great time. I loved the tour. My goal was to go back on tour in 2020. I was going to go into every year, but pandemic hit and 2020 was a blur. It was a down year. I caught COVID before the lockdown. I called it before the lockdown. I was in bad shape and then I got better and then it was still, the city was unlocked. [00:27:33] So no one was going anywhere. Then people started touring. But at this point I got to get back to the shooting. That's the other thing is the balancing the two, going back to that first question. I know the first couple of questions you asked about navigating between like comedy, standup comedy and filmmaking and sketch comedy. [00:27:49] The creating it's tough when you. One thing about sketch comedy, our social media creation, it's different from TV and movies because there's off seasons in TV and movies, you can really make movies all year round. Yes. But like with this pilot season, there's like, especially for TV. There's off seasons. [00:28:08] You know, sometimes the city of Hollywood shuts down for a few months, a year, right during the holidays and whatnot as a social content creator, social media content creator. There's no off days. Really, really you have a lot of times you find yourself I'm victim to it too. And it's like racing against the algorithm. [00:28:25] That's the problem. We don't have a network deal where you're getting paid this amount of money to create this. Then, you know, everything's set in stone. You're good. Come to work, do your work. And the season is wrapped. You go do something else. You go to another project and are you going on vacation with social media content creation, you have to create your own vacation and it's tough, but then you look at your numbers. [00:28:45] You look at your pages and your pages. Aren't really going because you're not putting content. That'd be because you're taking a break. It's hard to take a break. Yes. That's one of the biggest challenges I've been any social media creator feels and really relates to like, yeah, that's something that I think everybody can relate to and the constant need, or once our pressure to create. [00:29:05] Social media. It never gets tired of you, or they might get tired of you, but they'll never like they ask enough, they want more, this gets, it's funny. What's next? You know, when the TV show, you know, you got 13 episodes, 10 episodes, and then you got to wait for the off season for them to reshoot some stuff. [00:29:22] And then get back to showing your season two, season three, season four, with episode, whether it was social media content. Hey Jah. That was funny. Hilarious. When's the next case coming? When's the next Lesbian Homie. When's the next Roommate Pays All the Bills. When's the next, you know, Tiberius And then once those down,  [00:29:36] Dan Runcie: it's a grind. [00:29:37] It is, I could speak to that myself and the algorithms don't know you want to take PTO, right? They're not going to be favorable to you when you come back and that's what can make it so tough with it. And I'm sure for you, that's probably a lot of. Thought behind wanting to eventually shift to being less the main person in front of the camera and do a more behind the camera, because then that just frees up a bit more of your time to still be able to leverage what you created, but not need to be as on-demand. . [00:30:06] Bigg Jah: I don't mind it. I love acting. I love creating and I love being in front of the camera, but at the same time, I feel like I could be, I could be even more effective all this love. I see other, I see a lot of talent around me that might not get the recognition unless they're in my video. I'm the, it's my video. [00:30:22] I'll create a storyline and I pull them into the storyline and try to showcase them. And tried to show how talented he or she is and show that to, hopefully they can build their own following off of it or continue building their following. A lot of them already have a following, but they wanna increase it. [00:30:37] So a lot of times I have to take them and put them in my video for them to get as much known as, as they want to get. As opposed to these people are so talented, I would just love just to work with them. I don't have to necessarily have them in my video. I can just, if they have an idea. If they want to do all with my producing it, I would love to eventually my goal is also to create my own films and my own TV shows, but also produce content for other strong creators, other strong actors, actors. [00:31:03] That might not be directors. I see a lot of talented people that put content out and I'm like, I don't like it because I'm very particular about how they convey a story, how to perform dialogue, how to really put a dope, strong scene together in a series of scenes together to make us. [00:31:21] To make a short film, to make a film, to make a TV show episode. And I see a lot of funny, talented people that can act. I can do these things, but they're not director. So it kind of falls flat. I would love to be, I would love to build some kind of conglomerate to where it's me, along with other directors. [00:31:36] That they have access to these strong actors that will help tell their stories. You know what I'm saying?  [00:31:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah. You definitely have the network and the access to these people and being able to create that platform makes a lot of sense. And what it makes me think of is just how people are structuring. [00:31:54] Their team or what their group of people look like. And I'd be curious to hear what that is like on your end. What is your team look like? How many people are working with you on a regular basis to put out your content, to run the business, and what are some of those roles that people currently have with where you are right now? [00:32:14] Okay.  [00:32:14] Bigg Jah: So I could tell you how I started. I started by myself. And my room on my phone, my iPad, and I had cameras. I had cameras equipment cause I was a DP, none, not a professional. I mean, I was a professional DP, but I wasn't in for Hollywood, but I was a DP. I was directing music videos and being hired to shoot weddings, music, videos, short films, sketches. [00:32:36] I was all those things by myself. I had a truck full of equipment, a lot of DIY. And then when I decided to do stuff for myself, like the Bigg Jah brand, I'm pushing big jock. I'm the first guy I had was my boy, Ken Edwin. I ran into Ken. Ken is another comedian, another actor and writer. I've known him for years, but I didn't know that he did content. [00:32:56] So I ran into him about five years ago. I've known him for about eight and then we didn't become real friends until five years. And I saw that he created too, and his stuff was dope. It was super, super creative. I was, I was not when I first saw it and I was like, maybe we need to work. And he come to find out he's just a selfless as I am, anytime I needed someone to shoot, he was there to shoot. [00:33:18] If I needed to use his house. I can come to his house and shoot at his house. If I needed to go to another location, he'd be there with his camera and my camera, and we'll put them together. And he's working. He was the first guy that really supported me in this as far as shooting, even before that, when I was a standup comedian and I just got my first camera and I was on to start shooting for other comedians, my boy, Kraig Smith. [00:33:40] Kraig is like the first guy that really supported me had my back. And it was a team. It was a team of two, me and him when I was writing something directly to him, he was after or whether or not he was trying to network and tell people that we can shoot your projects. And me and him first started doing like a comedy specials, like short comedy specials. [00:33:58] We would have like five, six comics at a time. They would come to a comedy show and we would film them doing their sets. And we did that. I'm talking about almost 10 years ago. So we've been doing this for a long time, and then it kind of evolved into me doing the big stuff and then add into the team. So Ken, my boy, Kraig, my boy Troy around, I ran to Troy working at a sketch house. [00:34:20] We were all creating at this place called the sketch house and he and I were the only ones that actually were doing. On cameras, not just cell phones, everyone else is doing cell phones. He and I were shooting on cameras and we needed somebody to shoot that we didn't have, we had cameras. We didn't have anyone to shoot for us because no one knew how to shoot cameras. [00:34:38] They were all always on their phones. And so we decided to you shoot for me, I shoot for you. And that's how we built that bond. So me, Troy, Kraig, Ken. So I met a lot of these guys doing the work as sketch artists, and we just clicked and we just decided. Okay. Is a group of us. Now is 1, 2, 3, 4 of us. [00:34:59] When you need them at the time where you just shoot, we got one of us gonna shoot for you. One of y'all gotta shoot for me, and that's how the team formed. And that's when we sort of started growing I'm shooting every day. I'm shooting a couple of sketches a day. I'm dropping two or three times a week and my platform is starting to grow. [00:35:14] Cause now I'm flooding. The followers on flooding the supporters that are just, if they love this, you're gonna love this. You're gonna love this. So I was coming out with so many different pieces of content, so many different stories. Cause I had guys that will come bring lights. They were inexpensive. [00:35:29] They were the cheapest lights you can get, but they were there and we just, none of us really had any real money we had. And we had loyalty and that's really the only reason why I got to where I'm at right now, honestly speaking is that the team and, and it wasn't like I had a professional casting, uh, cast director, casting director, or a professional DP or a gaffer. [00:35:50] I just had the homies and we were just supporting each other, shooting all of our sketches together and we was putting out stuff. And then it got to the point where we were all making okay money. We were starting to make a little income from it. And we start, we had to meeting, we had a recent meet every Sunday, every Sunday we used to meet. [00:36:09] And then we got to the point where we were saying, we got to find our individual teams as a team. We had to branch out and get our own shooters, our own editors, our own, this, that, and the other. So we don't have to be balled down weekly. This doing work for you. You know what I'm saying? It's the officer, their stuff, his stuff today, his stuff tomorrow, I Vista somebody showed my stuff on Wednesday and then I'm shooting this stuff on Thursday and vice versa. [00:36:30] Now a week we're all working as grind is great. We're grinding, but we need time to do something else too. You know? And so now I had to regroup my team. I had to rebuild my team. These guys are still around. They're still my brothers. They was at the house today. I mean yesterday, but I had to find my own guy. [00:36:46] That's going to shoot for me as opposed to. Always relying on them because now they gotta be there, but we're all busy. We all got our own things. We've built our platforms. We have our fan bases. We have our algorithm, the race against, you know what I'm saying? So instead of having him take the whole day to fill my stuff, he needs to feel his stuff. [00:37:02] And now we need more than one day each we need 2, 3, 4 days each for the week. You know what I'm saying? So now to answer your question, I have to give you that quick basketball, that long story. My team now is smaller. My glamour, their friends that are there, that I create with they're still here. It's about five of us. [00:37:20] The whole crew was stupid is the show that I was doing. I was on the live show December. I mean, November. October October, November, December of last year, I did a one monthly Inglewood, California. I did a live show where I was so fat. I was so sketches and I was shows that we would do stand up comedy in between the sketches. [00:37:41] And it's about five. And yeah. Five. Yes. So that's the crew, the whole crews who that's their crew. But as far as me shooting now, I have a DP and it's really just me and another guy, me and my boy, Anthony. He was also a director. But once again, you run across people who are selling. And just loyal to the cause. [00:38:01] And he's a director first arrived a director at first that has a strong with the camera and strong with lighting and strong with editing. And he does a lot of those things for me. He does basically, sometimes it's like, for example, we just came, we just finished shooting the second season of lesbian homie. [00:38:18] And he helped me write that he co-wrote it with me. He co-wrote it with me. He de Pete the whole. And he's editing the whole season. So he's really a person that is doing four or five guys jobs. You know what I'm saying? All in one. And it's a blessing. I met him a few years ago. He loves my content and we met basically him as a fan of the content come to find out he had this wealth of knowledge of filmmaking and we became a team. [00:38:43] So he and I together created this whole season two of lesbian homie. And it's probably the best thing I've ever done producing. Written, and he has a lot to do with it. He was, he's an inspirational dude and I'm all about organic relationships. And our relationship is very organic, even though he came to LA and he wanted to meet me because he wanted to let me know what he can do. [00:39:07] And once I'm, once we met clicked, we had the same type of style. So my team is small. Still. My goal is to branch out and delegate some of those, uh, roles that he does to other people. But to be honest with you, I'm particular. You know, I have a certain style that hood good style and how I edit, how I write. [00:39:27] It's hard for me to like, have other people write for me or other people edit my stuff, but I don't have time to do all of this stuff. I've written over 400 sketches. You know what I'm saying? So it gets to the point where I got to delegate some things. So I can't be doing everything myself. My team is small, but I know over the years I've worked on bigger projects and I've done. [00:39:48] I've hired. I do have access to other people who, like I said, I grew up, I came in in this game. Directing and DP work. So I know a lot of other DPS that have camera year and have experience. So when it comes time for me to shoot my actual film, I can have a cast. Wardrobe VP camera assistance, gaffing crew. [00:40:08] I know I have enough resources and a Rolodex of people I can contact when I need to do a full production.  [00:40:13] Dan Runcie: It's impressive. What you've been able to do with the small team. I mean, outside in someone could look and see, I go, I'm sure he has a whole crew of people that are working with this. But like you said, you have people that are wearing multiple hats. [00:40:25] They're shipping in here and there to do things, and that's ultimately how you build. And I think you ultimately do get to the place where. Things kind of continue to expand, but there's also no reason to make things bigger than they need to. Part of the beauty is you being able to be nimble and having a team that appears bigger than it is. [00:40:42] I feel like that's the most powerful position to be in. And for you with that, what's on deck for you for the next few years. Now that things are opening back up now that the pandemic is starting to subside. What do you see for the next couple of years? What are you most excited about? I know you want to get more behind the camera, but is there any specific projects or anything else that we should keep an eye out for?  [00:41:04] Bigg Jah: Yeah. Yes, sir. I don't know when, because I'm still assembling. It's still being written, but I'm wanting to do a film wrapped around the character Tiberius. I'm doing a Tiberius film and I'm excited about that. I think that's going to be a big thing. I hopefully the, I haven't brought Tiberius out in the long run. [00:41:21] And maybe, I'm praying that the supporters, fans, supporters, I call them supportive. Most likely, usually it will still let the idea of becoming that with a movie for type area. So audition still have an agent I saw audition for other roles. And I'm open to do other projects for other companies, other studios, but as far as my stuff, even one or two at one of the two are going to happen. [00:41:44] I'm either going to shoot the film this year are going toward this year. And if I don't shoot this feminist year and I still do go on tour, I want to be, I don't want the film with within the next year. The defendant would be, we made it in the film. So whether, and I can do it independently, like I said, I'm at the point now where I'm, it's a blessing to be able to say, I can just do this myself. [00:42:06] I know how to, I know how to create film, just do it myself. And I have enough people around me, good people who are, are good at what they do to make a dope film.  [00:42:15] Dan Runcie: That's exciting, man. It's good stuff. Good stuff. Hey, Bigg Jah this has been great. Before we let you go, though, where should the chapter audience follow you to keep posted with what you're doing and everything that you got coming up? [00:42:28] Bigg Jah: You can follow me everywhere @Biggjah. B-I-G-G J-A-H. As YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tik Tok, I'll be on Tik Tok doing all kinds of stuff. I'll be dancing around. Naw, I'm not doing too much, but I do a little. I'm on all platforms at Bigg Jah. My website's Biggjah.com. [00:42:51] The Hood Good Store go get your merge. If you want to support, it's all love you. It's love anyways, but go to thehoodgoodstore.com. That's T-H-E-H-O-O-D-G-O-O-D-S-T-O-R-E.COM. That's the https://thehoodgoodstore.com. You can get almost most of the stuff I wear in my sketches. [00:43:09] This is my own company is my own brand and I sell it myself. Much love to you all. If you have any more questions, I got answers.  [00:43:16] Dan Runcie: Good stuff, man. Good stuff, Jah. Appreciate you coming on  [00:43:19] Bigg Jah: Thank you so much, bro.  [00:43:21] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy of the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. [00:43:49] Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. 3.3 million followers on Facebook. Over 423 million views on YouTube. 4.2 million TikTok likes.


Bigg Jah (real name Jahdai Pickett) has put up those gaudy social media numbers with no studio or agency backing and a relatively small team. The do-everything entertainer — who can write, act, direct, produce, and everything in between — has been posting content online almost nonstop for the past five years, doing what he calls “hood good comedy.” It’s all paying dividends now.  


He’s built a synergy map that extends past his wildly popular social media franchises like “Inner Thoughts” and “The Lesbian Homie.” There’s also merch (with a new piece dropping almost every month) and with the world re-opening, perhaps comedy shows again.  


Next, Bigg Jah is trying to parlay his massive social media success into feature films. He originally studied film in college and planned to take the traditional route into the industry — shooting a short film, winning movie festivals, and signing with an agent. But the rise of social media gave Bigg Jah an alternative AND independent route into the business.


You’ll want to listen to my interview with Bigg Jah to get more insight into his creative process and meteoric rise on social media. Here’s everything we covered in this Trapital episode:


[3:14] What Does “Hood Good Comedy” Mean?

[5:36] Lasting Impact Of 90s Comedy Movies 

[7:36] Navigating Different Entertainment Mediums (Social Media, Film, Comedy)

[11:49] Being Forced To Go The Independent Creator Route

[14:59] Acting Vs. Directing Vs. Writing

[18:18] How Bigg Jah Chooses What Type Of Content To Make

[21:06] What’s Behind Bigg Jah’s Success On Facebook?

[23:19] How Bigg Jah Has Leveraged Other Social Networks

[26:25] Bigg Jah’s Revenue Breakdown

[29:05] The Struggles Of Creator Burnout 

[33:56] The Key To Bigg Jah’s Success 

[43:55] Upcoming Projects For Bigg Jah

[45:44] How To Follow Bigg Jah



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Bigg Jahh, @biggjah

 

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 


TRANSCRIPTION


[00:00:00] Bigg Jah: I'm not pressured to keep the series going, because I know that it works. I'm in it to create new stuff and see how it goes. I'm not a slave to the, "Well, this is what works. So let me just keep doing this only." No, I'm gonna push the envelope and push the line and I'm gonna see if they like this too. And what about this?

[00:00:15] I'm going to grab this and what if I do this? You know, so I don't have a problem with that. Plus I've done so much. I've done the series thing to a degree now I wanna move on to something else. I want to challenge myself to do another character or another storyline that see if people like that.

[00:00:36] Dan Runcie: Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level.

[00:00:56] Today's guest is Bigg Jah. He's an actor creator, filmmaker, comedian, and one of the funniest people on the internet, I was first put onto Bigg Jah's work because I got to know Damien Ritter, shout out to Dame. He used to run Funk Volume, and he's now chief operating officer at BeatStars, but he also manages Jah.

[00:01:16] And Jah is someone who I think has definitely been one of the more successful, independent creators that I've seen being able to leverage social media, to grow his platform. And now accrue millions of followers on Facebook. And on YouTube. And we talk a lot about how he's built his career. He's someone that first went to school to study film and how he transitioned eventually to wanting to be the person behind the camera.

[00:01:43] But realizing that there was a lot of value from him being the person in front of the camera as well. And that's when things really started to take off for him. And we talked about how he approached his comedy, some of the most successful franchises and series that he's had and his bigger ambitions to still be able to do more motion pictures, and do more stuff behind the scenes.

[00:02:02] And we talked a lot as well about just how much of a grind it can be for creators to always produce content nonstop and how that's what the algorithms ultimately want you to do. And that's definitely something that I can relate to. I know a lot of people listening to this can relate to as well. 

[00:02:17] We also talked about how he looks at running his business, what his team looks like. And so much more, if you are interested in the different levels of the creator economy, there is this essay that I wrote a couple of months back, that overlooked levels of the creator economy. And I talked a lot about the success at each stage.

[00:02:34] Jah was one of the people that was featured and mentioned in that article. So I definitely recommend you check that out and Pete this episode, because I think that anyone that. The landscape. You're trying to love a love determine. When do you partner with other companies when you don't? This is the episode for you I had a great chat with him.

[00:02:51] Hope you enjoyed it. Here's my conversation with Bigg Jah. 

[00:02:55] All right. Today we got the one and only Bigg Jah. He's a comedian, an actor, a filmmaker himself. Jah, welcome to the 

[00:03:02] Bigg Jah: Thank you for having me, bro. Appreciate it. 

[00:03:05] Dan Runcie: Hey, I've always been a big fan of you, how you've built up your platform, not just on social media, but through touring and putting everything out there.

[00:03:14] And one of the things that stuck out to me is your brand. You've referred to yourself as putting out hood good comedy. Can you talk more about that and what that means? 

[00:03:23] Bigg Jah: Yeah, man, have a good comedy, bro. Is this I'm from the hood, bro. Hood good means good things come out of the hood, and I'm one of them. So it's just sometimes you being from the hood or growing up in that environment.

[00:03:36] It's humble beginnings, tough times. Things that a lot of people wouldn't want to go through, but if you're from here and you grew up this way and you end up, you turn out good, you turned out. Okay. I loved my, I love my upbringing. I love even the hard times. Yeah, it's almost like making lemonade out of lemons..

[00:03:52] You know what I'm saying? So it's hood good comedy. A lot of the times, the stuff I like to talk about or display on camera are things that if you're from the hood, you can relate to, you don't even have to be from the hood to relate to it. But for sure if you're from the hood. You can relate to it. You know what I'm saying?

[00:04:07] That's kind of what I make it for everybody, but I make it for specifically, for folks in the hood, 

[00:04:12] Dan Runcie: And I think what helps you as well as that, of course, there's a lot of black content that is out there now with Netflix and all these other streaming services. You're able to tell stories and talk about things that aren't going to get covered in those spaces.

[00:04:25] And I think that just shows that even though people may think that there's this abundance of content, that's everywhere. Now, you're telling stories through your comedy and through your sketches that you know are not going to get told elsewhere. So you have a good niche for yourself there. 

[00:04:40] Bigg Jah: Yeah. Thank you, bro.

[00:04:41] It took me a minute to do it consistently. I've always wanted to do this type of stuff, this type of content, but growing up, watching Martin, you know, the Jamie Fox show or the woods, Don't Be a Menace to Society, all those different shows and movies, Harlem Nights, Eddie Murphy, like Boomerang.

[00:05:01] Those films definitely influenced me into doing what I do now. And so I feel like you watch Friday that Friday show the movie Friday is specifically for the hood. Anybody could like it. Anybody can find value in it and find humor in it, but for sure the hood is going to love it because it's exactly where we come from.

[00:05:18] It tells the story, it tells our story. When I had the opportunity to do that, I wanted to do the same. 

[00:05:23] Dan Runcie: Yeah. And those movies you mentioned, and the TV shows too, they all hit this error that I feel like a lot of us grew up with that we saw on TV, right? The nineties had such a Renaissance for not just black entertainment, but comedy too.

[00:05:36] I mean, thinking about even you mentioning the way, a lot of people may not think about that as a traditional comedy, but it's a coming of age story. Everyone remembers what it's like going to prom or going through any of those experiences. 

[00:05:48] Bigg Jah: For me, for sure. A hundred percent for that boy. It was it's funny because I remember going through almost every single thing in that movie I experienced as a kid growing up.

[00:05:57] So yeah, that's why the woods is a classic for me. I would love to create something like that for myself, for the people in other versions of. The Hood Good stories and stuff like that. So, yeah. 

[00:06:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah, because now we're in this space where they're starting to make sequels of all those right. Cause best man came out right around the same time as the wood and that best man holiday.

[00:06:19] And I think I saw something they're trying to put out another one of these know 

[00:06:23] Bigg Jah: that series is dope. I think that cast is so strong. They can do a part three and as long as it's just that. And then the next thing someone else is getting married or someone's going through a divorce, or if someone's having a baby shower or something, I think you can do more, are turned into a TV show or something about that.

[00:06:39] Cash is so dope. I think, I think a baby could do it. And I think all the actors in that movie wouldn't mind doing the series. You know what I'm saying? Because they all doing their thing, but I'm sure that'd be a great opportunity for them to really get back on camera together and consider. 

[00:06:56] Dan Runcie: Yeah. Yeah. One of the things about your career that I think is a bit more unique from maybe that generation of stars is they very much were trained to perfect how they were on screen, right.

[00:07:08] They're either going to be in TV or in movies. Your career's a little different because you have to. Be a face on social media, you're doing your stand-up. You have your specials, your movies, and then even your own touring. And I got to imagine that there was a bit of maneuvering there between each of those areas.

[00:07:25] You're not trying to get pigeonholed, but you also know that you need to have exposure in each of those. What has it been like navigating each of those areas, but knowing that they're all part of how you run and do what you do 

[00:07:36] Bigg Jah: It's still a challenge. it's lovely. It's a beautiful struggle, man. That's crazy.

[00:07:40] Cause I went to film school to learn how to make films. And then I started doing comedy. Then I went and did comedy. I started pursuing comedy when I moved back to LA. And I was trying to make it as a comic, still trying to make it as a comic and, you know, get on tours, open up for different comics, get the, be, become a stronger comic, get my hour going.

[00:08:04] And it was moving by the snail's pace. I was growing as a comic. But I just wasn't professionally growing as a comic. And then it dawned on me, like once I started reaching back and grabbing my film information, my film degree, and working on films and sketches and just doing content like that, it took my comedy and it boosted it.

[00:08:23] And then fast forward, a lot of things are, are, I wouldn't say fast-forwarded. I think it brought me up to speed with my comedy, you know, because the biggest thing about comedy, no matter how funny you are, if you can't get butts on the seats. No one cares, you know, promoters don't care and you don't care either.

[00:08:38] If you throw a show and no one comes then you don't really have a show. Cause you probably still gonna perform. But you know, it's just being a filmmaker and a comedian at the same time allows me to A. Interchange both. So if I think of a funny sketch, a lot of the time I'll put that sketch on stage and talk about the sketch as the comedy bit.

[00:08:58] But most of my sketches come from comedy. Anyhow, come from my stage work. So I have a joke about certain things word plays. The whole crew is stupid, came from a joke on stage. The lesbian homie came from a joke on stage, you know? Yeah, man. So I think it worked in my favor at first. I was doing one or the other.

[00:09:15] Now I'm doing both, you know, so 

[00:09:17] Dan Runcie: yeah. And I figured what that, to each of these, it gives you an opportunity to just get that quick feedback. You can then turn that into however you're going to make the actual longer form content itself. You put something on social media, you see the engagement, that's your feedback.

[00:09:32] You're doing something on tour. You see how the crowd reacts. You see, okay. There are differences with the crowd in this city versus that city. And then each of those things I'm sure gives you the confidence. You'd be like, okay, if we're going to spend several weeks or several months putting this project together.

[00:09:47] I know this is going to hit because of what I saw from the responsible people. 

[00:09:51] Bigg Jah: Right? True. Yeah. The social media is great for that, you know, instantly whether or not it is funny or not, or you can find out instantly whether it's funny or not. And even if you don't find it, that it's funny right away doesn't mean it's not funny.

[00:10:04] I refuse to believe. Social media is the only way to gauge whether a joke is funny or not. It's a good way because the people laughing at me and it's funny. And what I'm saying, if people don't laugh, I mean, they're not laughing yet in my opinion, but yeah. So I navigated through both, you know, stand up comedy, sketch comedy, and then I'm moving on to feature films.

[00:10:23] Eventually that's the goal. That's the immediate goal, you know? So yeah.

[00:10:27] Dan Runcie: let's talk more about that immediate goal. People could probably look at your career from outside it and be like, oh, he's killing it independently. He's doing his thing. He has things in motion and you've definitely hit one of those higher levels of being someone that has their platform and being able to just do bigger things with it.

[00:10:47] But you're still like, no, you want to be able to do the feature films and you want to be able to do bigger, bigger things. Can you talk about that? The difference there, because I know. There was likely a stage maybe from where you may have been several years ago, where the point you're at now would have been like, oh, this is where I really want to be able to get to.

[00:11:04] Right. And then now it's about what it looks like for that next level of being able to do more motion pictures. 

[00:11:13] Bigg Jah: And so my goal was to, in a perfect world, create a film, enter into a film festival when it wins several film, festivals, booking agent, you know what I'm saying? That, and then getting to the point where I'm in a position to create, write and direct my own films.

[00:11:29] And that's the typical way I believe, you know, but then this thing called social media came and it took me a while to really buy into it. That's what changed my world and my mindset. A lot of the time I was trying to be an employee. I was trying to be a writer for sketch comedy network or a writer for Fox or writer for ADD or something like that.

[00:11:49] So I was trying to pitch me. I was pitching myself to, you know, what the funny was back in the day, which is the Waynes Brothers and whatnot that was sitting in the offices, just trying to say, oh, look at the sketch. I did look at this, read my script. And no one really took hold of it. No one really long story short note, and everyone said, no, they didn't say no. No, we not going to mess with you, but they didn't hire me.

[00:12:10] They didn't put me in a position in their company to thrive or just become a team player. So eventually I got to the point where I was like, I got to do this myself. And so let me start a page from scratch, put my name on it and started making them for the first sketch and the second sketch and the third and fourth and keep it going as opposed to, because most of my sketches, especially in the first year, Most of my sketches were sketches that I wrote for ADD or for other platforms.

[00:12:35] And there was a rifle with me at first, you know, and so a shout out to them. I said, I know a lot of people over there and so I love it. But, it was a blessing in disguise me not like selling my, my scripts over there or getting hired to be a director over there, forced me into doing my own thing. And I'm much rather we would be doing this than anything else.

[00:12:54] So, uh, the feature film thing. I also still want to state, I would love to be independent, an independent filmmaker that makes what I want to make. And at the times, and the pacing that I wouldn't make it. But my goal was to always make films and TV. So I went to school for that.

[00:13:09] And when I came across social media, it was, it's not, I would say it's a step back, cause it's not, it's a step across. It's another way of getting to where I want to go. And it took me some years to figure that out. But, uh, I did so myself putting sketches or sort of spending months of making a short film or many months trying to make a feature and trying to get the funding for, to produce a feature or short.

[00:13:34] let me just take this camera that I have and my equipment that I already have and start shooting the small vignettes. So small sketches cause people doing anyways, small sketches and it's keep doing that until something happens and something happened. It was a fan base and a fan base is the most important thing to any entertainer.

[00:13:51] Singer writer, poet offer dancer. You build a fan base. That's the most important thing, in my opinion. Because at that point you have people who love what you do, you know, and you don't need, you don't need a producer or a studio to say yes to do what you want to do. I can move right now by myself.

[00:14:09] And it took me a while to get to this point. It's a blessing that people do, like what I do, and they do support. Like I said, it's, it's way more gratifying than making someone else's dream come true.

[00:14:20] Dan Runcie: It's powerful, especially to be able to do it on your own. And you saw it, it was like you tried to break out initially and they weren't feeling it at first, but now that you have a bit more clout and leverage, you can do the same thing yourself.

[00:14:34] And in that space, I'm sure it's a bit of this distinction where you're wearing multiple hats. You're the lead person as the comic and the creator and the face of the brand. You also want to be the filmmaker, the person that can direct and put everything together. Do you feel as if people are always seeing you in that light or do you feel like you may have to remind people?

[00:14:55] No. No. I'm also interested in this other aspect as well.

[00:14:59] Bigg Jah: As far as acting and producing and directing. Okay. So one thing I will say this, when I will create different things, whether it was a short film or, or just a piece of content, a lot of the time I was writting it and I was directing it and I was shooting it, and that was getting other actors.

[00:15:15] To begin it and building it that way. And no one really out would put it online. Nobody would really follow it or watch it. And maybe because it was just too soon, then back in 2017, I decided, let me put myself on camera, have someone from me doing all the funny stuff I'm writing for other people. Let me do, let me do the funny stuff.

[00:15:32] And that was already an actor. I have an agent and I've been acting since 2009. So it was not like I was just a director writer. I was after as well, but I didn't care when it came to my projects, I was seeing other people play these roles. And I was working under the hat of writer director. And then it got to the point where, all right, you can't really rely on people, especially when you have no money and limited resources and limited time.

[00:15:56] So you have to start doing things yourself. And so I said, okay, cool. I'm gonna have to find somebody who rocks with me, who cares about what I do and asked him to shoot me, just hold the camera, push record and just make sure it's steady and I'm going in front of the camera and then I'm going to be the funny, and that's when things start picking up, that's when things took off.

[00:16:12] So to answer your question about reminding people that are, yeah, I mean, honestly, I would love to, as much as I love being in front of a camera and telling jokes and being funny and being silly. I would love to just write and direct sometimes, sometimes to where it's a project that's produced by me directed by me, but I don't have to be the lead star.

[00:16:32] I can just literally sit back and direct the actors and make some dope. So eventually I put on, get into. I think this year, the remainder of this year, I'm wanting to start putting more projects together where I'm not the focal point, but it's the focal point is where people come to see at this point, it's me.

[00:16:48] So I would love to get to the point where people would love just to see my content, whether I'm in front of the camera or the main character or not, they just are interested in seeing what I put in. So that's the goal. 

[00:16:59] Dan Runcie: That reminds me of something I heard recently from Quinta Brunson from Abbott Elementary.

[00:17:04] She had said when she was first pitching the show, she actually did even have herself as the lead in the role. And then the people that at ABC were like, ah, we didn't buy this project without you in this. Like you have to be in this. So it was interesting to hear her experience through that. And I think similarly with you, it'd be interesting to see what.

[00:17:24] Continues to do a backpack. Cause I do think that there's this thing where yes, what people may most respond to is seeing the person they're most familiar with. But as the thing expands and grows, it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. And I think one of the ways that you've done that, and I think it continue through is that you do have consistent series throughout your content.

[00:17:45] You have the lesbian Hovey, you have inner thoughts and some of these. Sketches. And I think in a lot of ways, these are the franchises that you have under your umbrella. And in thinking about that piece, do you ever think about the balance of content, whether you want to continue making shows in those series because you know how popular they are versus tried new series out and doing things, how much do you balance the content play between what you know is already proven versus testing new things?

[00:18:18] Bigg Jah: Honestly, I will say over the years, I've gotten more comfortable with this. I've been going back and forth. I've been going, like, for example, when I first did my first big project I did, or my first sketch that really did numbers and really got me some notice was Tiberius, The Hood Man. And then that kind of spread fast and it was going to share it a lot.

[00:18:38] And I was like, man, this is dope. And so I did another one. I did a part two. Then I got like an episode three. and episode four and I kept going. I was like, all right, let me fall back and not just do this one character, this one type of a piece of content. Let me do something different. I'm coming to, that was my second, like non-sequitur series.

[00:18:56] You know what I'm saying? It just, it was just episode for episode here and there, but I was doing that. So that was a totally different room. It was still Hood Good, but it was, I was a different type of character in Tiberius. I'm this big Debo type character in the I'm coming to.

[00:19:08] I'm like this big guy too. You can't hide my size, but pause, but you can. My lady is the bully. My lady is the one punking me and stuff like that. So that was like a two different dynamics there. And, it did well. And then moved on. So I forget the next one. I think that might've been lesbian the next one, but then the whole crew was stupid.

[00:19:26] I keep trying to, I was still doing episode one, two and three of this series, one, two, and three of that series. And I was adding on the whole crew was stupid. My inner thoughts, the roommate pays all the bills I kept doing. So I don't have a problem with doing something new because I feel like. I feel like if I'm blessed enough to make these go to the next project, the next different ideas will go to, you know, so that's what I mean about like, yeah.

[00:19:48] I'm not pressured to keep the series going, because I know that it works. I'm in it to create new stuff and see how it goes. I'm not a slave slave to the, "Well, this is what works. So let me just keep doing this only." No, I'm gonna push the envelope and push the line and I'm gonna see if they like this too. And what about this?

[00:20:04] I'm going to grab this and what if I do this? You know, so I don't have a problem with that. Plus I've done so much. I've done the series thing to a degree now I wanna move on to something else. I want to challenge myself to do another character or another storyline that see if people like that.

[00:20:25] Dan Runcie: Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor.

[00:20:28] Yeah. And that follows with what you said earlier in terms of if you're only doing things for the response. You're not taking into account that some things may not take off on social media, but that doesn't mean that they're not funny. It could be the algorithm doing whatever it's doing that day. You still got to have the confidence in what you're putting out that it's good, and that people are going to resonate with that truth.

[00:20:50] One of the other things too, that stuck out to me is that Facebook has been a pretty big channel for you in terms of where you have had a lot of your audience on social media, where there's been a lot of the growth that attraction there. But I also know that Facebook hasn't always been the easiest platform

[00:21:06] For a lot of creators to be able to navigate, even though they have the biggest user base out of anyone, how have you been able to make the platform work for you 

[00:21:15] Bigg Jah: Well, let me start by saying shout out to Facebook. Facebook has been amazing. It's been a blessing for sure. And I agree with you. They're not the easiest to navigate through. If I had to critique them, which I would say they, the customer service needs to be much better.

[00:21:29] Their customer. I think for someone like myself and others, We should have a little bit more love. We should get a little bit more love from them. A little bit more support from Facebook on the do's and don'ts and more and more clarity, you know, and I think that it should be more, we should be handled better, to be honest with you, as far as how that helped my channel go.

[00:21:48] And for me, a hundred percent honest with you, I've never strategized. I literally just. I do all the work on my end and I post I don't and well, I will say I do have times where I will. I do strategize in the sense, I will say I'm going to post every day between eight and 10 o'clock 8:00 AM to 10:00 AM. I don't post in the evening time that I posted in the morning and I'm on the west coast.

[00:22:10] So if it's. Here in the morning and in LA was 11 o'clock in the morning in New York. So it's still morning. And I posted that. I've been doing that for years. So, and because I'm not really clear on what to do and what not to do with Facebook, it's not very clear. I just do me and hopefully, it works.

[00:22:29] So, uh, I do have some hangups here and there, but for the most part, I've been pretty successful as far as getting my content out and they're being overloaded. 

[00:22:37] Dan Runcie: Yeah, it's interesting because especially at your level, having millions of followers on the platform and through your page as well, having some type of custom service for someone at your level would make a lot of sense.

[00:22:50] Cause I know that that's something that is existing on a lot of the other platforms. And to your point, I don't think any of these platforms have necessarily been perfect. They're always having challenges, but some of them have been more catering to others, but yeah, it's been fascinating to see. With that after Facebook, which other platform would you say has been the most beneficial for you?

[00:23:11] I know where your followers are, but more from your perspective, which one have you enjoyed? Both from an engagement and a performance perspective? 

[00:23:19] Bigg Jah: Believe it or not. YouTube was my first platform that really no Instagram Instagram was where I started putting my one minute videos on my 15-second videos on the first 15 second videos.

[00:23:29] And then they gave us a minute. I started doing one minutes pieces of work. And then I started going on YouTube and then Facebook, YouTube IG, and then Facebook. IG and Facebook at the same time, I think they're together. At least they are now, but I didn't see much. I didn't get that much love on Facebook initially.

[00:23:47] It was, most of my success was coming on IG and I think maybe because it's more personal, it's closer. It's right there in your hand. And it's just a little bit more popular than Facebook and YouTube. Ideas, but I started there and then I started really focusing on YouTube first. And then you then Facebook started coming along strong.

[00:24:06] And so now I will say Facebook and YouTube, but then IG as far as my success, Tik Tok is there as well. I'm not as strong on Twitter as I should probably be, but it's whether it was there, but mostly. Facebook is my biggest platform. Then YouTube, in this instance, Tik Tok actually, then there's YouTube, then there's Instagram.

[00:24:25] So Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. Those are my four biggest platforms and Facebook and YouTube are my biggest. Yeah, 

[00:24:32] Dan Runcie: it's interesting because I do think that for. Anyone that is creating content using platforms. There's normally going to be a few that you gravitate the most to, for what your strengths are and where you think works the best for you.

[00:24:45] And I think in past interviews you had talked Vine saying like, Hey, there's certain people that are good with six seconds, but that just didn't necessarily work for what I was working with. But. When IG had expanded you at 15 and then 30 seconds of the whole mini you're like, all right, bet.

[00:25:01] This is exactly where I need to be. And I think even Twitter, to some extent with that, right? I think that Twitter probably is something that leaves itself a bit more to people reacting to whatever the current thing is. And I don't necessarily look at your comedy in that type of way. Right. So I do feel like you've definitely found the places where you can perform the best and where your audience.

[00:25:24] The other question that I had for you though, was around given everything that you do with what you do on social media, what you may do on tour as well. For other people that may be looking at you or where you're at at least independently, what are the rough breakdowns of where your revenue comes from in terms of, from touring, you know, versus other areas.

[00:25:45] And it doesn't need to be like specifics more so from a percentage perspective, but how you run the business and where you expect things to come from. 

[00:25:53] Bigg Jah: Well, my biggest income, my biggest sources of revenue are from Facebook and YouTube. And then any given month, it would be merch and or brand deals like sponsorships.

[00:26:04] So Facebook and YouTube. And then depending on if I have a shirt that I'm selling or has a shirt that people really like. Or as a piece of it is a hat or some type of piece of clothing that I have that people really like at that, I try to come up with something every month or something like that. So depending on the month, it could be, my third revenue could be merch or it could be sponsorships depending on if I, I landed a deal with a brand, with a company and they want to, you know, get this product promoted and they pay me this amount of money.

[00:26:31] So it could be brand deals, which are very important too. Especially if your brand deal fits. If it really working and be creative, you can keep that relationship going for awhile for a long time. And that's the goal is to get a working relationship with these, with these companies and let them confide in you and you respect what they do, where they're doing and what they're willing to give and you, and what you're willing to give as far as your expertise and your talent and stuff like that.

[00:26:55] And hopefully I'll come to an agreement and get it going for that for the longterm. So I will say merch then brand deals or sometimes brand deals then merch YouTube and Facebook or my business platforms. 

[00:27:07] Dan Runcie: Where does touring fit into that? 

[00:27:08] Bigg Jah: I haven't toured the 2019. So 2019. This is before the pandemic that it fit in there.

[00:27:13] It was good. I had a great time. I loved the tour. My goal was to go back on tour in 2020. I was going to go into every year, but pandemic hit and 2020 was a blur. It was a down year. I caught COVID before the lockdown. I called it before the lockdown. I was in bad shape and then I got better and then it was still, the city was unlocked.

[00:27:33] So no one was going anywhere. Then people started touring. But at this point I got to get back to the shooting. That's the other thing is the balancing the two, going back to that first question. I know the first couple of questions you asked about navigating between like comedy, standup comedy and filmmaking and sketch comedy.

[00:27:49] The creating it's tough when you. One thing about sketch comedy, our social media creation, it's different from TV and movies because there's off seasons in TV and movies, you can really make movies all year round. Yes. But like with this pilot season, there's like, especially for TV. There's off seasons.

[00:28:08] You know, sometimes the city of Hollywood shuts down for a few months, a year, right during the holidays and whatnot as a social content creator, social media content creator. There's no off days. Really, really you have a lot of times you find yourself I'm victim to it too. And it's like racing against the algorithm.

[00:28:25] That's the problem. We don't have a network deal where you're getting paid this amount of money to create this. Then, you know, everything's set in stone. You're good. Come to work, do your work. And the season is wrapped. You go do something else. You go to another project and are you going on vacation with social media content creation, you have to create your own vacation and it's tough, but then you look at your numbers.

[00:28:45] You look at your pages and your pages. Aren't really going because you're not putting content. That'd be because you're taking a break. It's hard to take a break. Yes. That's one of the biggest challenges I've been any social media creator feels and really relates to like, yeah, that's something that I think everybody can relate to and the constant need, or once our pressure to create.

[00:29:05] Social media. It never gets tired of you, or they might get tired of you, but they'll never like they ask enough, they want more, this gets, it's funny. What's next? You know, when the TV show, you know, you got 13 episodes, 10 episodes, and then you got to wait for the off season for them to reshoot some stuff.

[00:29:22] And then get back to showing your season two, season three, season four, with episode, whether it was social media content. Hey Jah. That was funny. Hilarious. When's the next case coming? When's the next Lesbian Homie. When's the next Roommate Pays All the Bills. When's the next, you know, Tiberius And then once those down, 

[00:29:36] Dan Runcie: it's a grind.

[00:29:37] It is, I could speak to that myself and the algorithms don't know you want to take PTO, right? They're not going to be favorable to you when you come back and that's what can make it so tough with it. And I'm sure for you, that's probably a lot of. Thought behind wanting to eventually shift to being less the main person in front of the camera and do a more behind the camera, because then that just frees up a bit more of your time to still be able to leverage what you created, but not need to be as on-demand. .

[00:30:06] Bigg Jah: I don't mind it. I love acting. I love creating and I love being in front of the camera, but at the same time, I feel like I could be, I could be even more effective all this love. I see other, I see a lot of talent around me that might not get the recognition unless they're in my video. I'm the, it's my video.

[00:30:22] I'll create a storyline and I pull them into the storyline and try to showcase them. And tried to show how talented he or she is and show that to, hopefully they can build their own following off of it or continue building their following. A lot of them already have a following, but they wanna increase it.

[00:30:37] So a lot of times I have to take them and put them in my video for them to get as much known as, as they want to get. As opposed to these people are so talented, I would just love just to work with them. I don't have to necessarily have them in my video. I can just, if they have an idea. If they want to do all with my producing it, I would love to eventually my goal is also to create my own films and my own TV shows, but also produce content for other strong creators, other strong actors, actors.

[00:31:03] That might not be directors. I see a lot of talented people that put content out and I'm like, I don't like it because I'm very particular about how they convey a story, how to perform dialogue, how to really put a dope, strong scene together in a series of scenes together to make us.

[00:31:21] To make a short film, to make a film, to make a TV show episode. And I see a lot of funny, talented people that can act. I can do these things, but they're not director. So it kind of falls flat. I would love to be, I would love to build some kind of conglomerate to where it's me, along with other directors.

[00:31:36] That they have access to these strong actors that will help tell their stories. You know what I'm saying? 

[00:31:41] Dan Runcie: Yeah. You definitely have the network and the access to these people and being able to create that platform makes a lot of sense. And what it makes me think of is just how people are structuring.

[00:31:54] Their team or what their group of people look like. And I'd be curious to hear what that is like on your end. What is your team look like? How many people are working with you on a regular basis to put out your content, to run the business, and what are some of those roles that people currently have with where you are right now?

[00:32:14] Okay. 

[00:32:14] Bigg Jah: So I could tell you how I started. I started by myself. And my room on my phone, my iPad, and I had cameras. I had cameras equipment cause I was a DP, none, not a professional. I mean, I was a professional DP, but I wasn't in for Hollywood, but I was a DP. I was directing music videos and being hired to shoot weddings, music, videos, short films, sketches.

[00:32:36] I was all those things by myself. I had a truck full of equipment, a lot of DIY. And then when I decided to do stuff for myself, like the Bigg Jah brand, I'm pushing big jock. I'm the first guy I had was my boy, Ken Edwin. I ran into Ken. Ken is another comedian, another actor and writer. I've known him for years, but I didn't know that he did content.

[00:32:56] So I ran into him about five years ago. I've known him for about eight and then we didn't become real friends until five years. And I saw that he created too, and his stuff was dope. It was super, super creative. I was, I was not when I first saw it and I was like, maybe we need to work. And he come to find out he's just a selfless as I am, anytime I needed someone to shoot, he was there to shoot.

[00:33:18] If I needed to use his house. I can come to his house and shoot at his house. If I needed to go to another location, he'd be there with his camera and my camera, and we'll put them together. And he's working. He was the first guy that really supported me in this as far as shooting, even before that, when I was a standup comedian and I just got my first camera and I was on to start shooting for other comedians, my boy, Kraig Smith.

[00:33:40] Kraig is like the first guy that really supported me had my back. And it was a team. It was a team of two, me and him when I was writing something directly to him, he was after or whether or not he was trying to network and tell people that we can shoot your projects. And me and him first started doing like a comedy specials, like short comedy specials.

[00:33:58] We would have like five, six comics at a time. They would come to a comedy show and we would film them doing their sets. And we did that. I'm talking about almost 10 years ago. So we've been doing this for a long time, and then it kind of evolved into me doing the big stuff and then add into the team. So Ken, my boy, Kraig, my boy Troy around, I ran to Troy working at a sketch house.

[00:34:20] We were all creating at this place called the sketch house and he and I were the only ones that actually were doing. On cameras, not just cell phones, everyone else is doing cell phones. He and I were shooting on cameras and we needed somebody to shoot that we didn't have, we had cameras. We didn't have anyone to shoot for us because no one knew how to shoot cameras.

[00:34:38] They were all always on their phones. And so we decided to you shoot for me, I shoot for you. And that's how we built that bond. So me, Troy, Kraig, Ken. So I met a lot of these guys doing the work as sketch artists, and we just clicked and we just decided. Okay. Is a group of us. Now is 1, 2, 3, 4 of us.

[00:34:59] When you need them at the time where you just shoot, we got one of us gonna shoot for you. One of y'all gotta shoot for me, and that's how the team formed. And that's when we sort of started growing I'm shooting every day. I'm shooting a couple of sketches a day. I'm dropping two or three times a week and my platform is starting to grow.

[00:35:14] Cause now I'm flooding. The followers on flooding the supporters that are just, if they love this, you're gonna love this. You're gonna love this. So I was coming out with so many different pieces of content, so many different stories. Cause I had guys that will come bring lights. They were inexpensive.

[00:35:29] They were the cheapest lights you can get, but they were there and we just, none of us really had any real money we had. And we had loyalty and that's really the only reason why I got to where I'm at right now, honestly speaking is that the team and, and it wasn't like I had a professional casting, uh, cast director, casting director, or a professional DP or a gaffer.

[00:35:50] I just had the homies and we were just supporting each other, shooting all of our sketches together and we was putting out stuff. And then it got to the point where we were all making okay money. We were starting to make a little income from it. And we start, we had to meeting, we had a recent meet every Sunday, every Sunday we used to meet.

[00:36:09] And then we got to the point where we were saying, we got to find our individual teams as a team. We had to branch out and get our own shooters, our own editors, our own, this, that, and the other. So we don't have to be balled down weekly. This doing work for you. You know what I'm saying? It's the officer, their stuff, his stuff today, his stuff tomorrow, I Vista somebody showed my stuff on Wednesday and then I'm shooting this stuff on Thursday and vice versa.

[00:36:30] Now a week we're all working as grind is great. We're grinding, but we need time to do something else too. You know? And so now I had to regroup my team. I had to rebuild my team. These guys are still around. They're still my brothers. They was at the house today. I mean yesterday, but I had to find my own guy.

[00:36:46] That's going to shoot for me as opposed to. Always relying on them because now they gotta be there, but we're all busy. We all got our own things. We've built our platforms. We have our fan bases. We have our algorithm, the race against, you know what I'm saying? So instead of having him take the whole day to fill my stuff, he needs to feel his stuff.

[00:37:02] And now we need more than one day each we need 2, 3, 4 days each for the week. You know what I'm saying? So now to answer your question, I have to give you that quick basketball, that long story. My team now is smaller. My glamour, their friends that are there, that I create with they're still here. It's about five of us.

[00:37:20] The whole crew was stupid is the show that I was doing. I was on the live show December. I mean, November. October October, November, December of last year, I did a one monthly Inglewood, California. I did a live show where I was so fat. I was so sketches and I was shows that we would do stand up comedy in between the sketches.

[00:37:41] And it's about five. And yeah. Five. Yes. So that's the crew, the whole crews who that's their crew. But as far as me shooting now, I have a DP and it's really just me and another guy, me and my boy, Anthony. He was also a director. But once again, you run across people who are selling. And just loyal to the cause.

[00:38:01] And he's a director first arrived a director at first that has a strong with the camera and strong with lighting and strong with editing. And he does a lot of those things for me. He does basically, sometimes it's like, for example, we just came, we just finished shooting the second season of lesbian homie.

[00:38:18] And he helped me write that he co-wrote it with me. He co-wrote it with me. He de Pete the whole. And he's editing the whole season. So he's really a person that is doing four or five guys jobs. You know what I'm saying? All in one. And it's a blessing. I met him a few years ago. He loves my content and we met basically him as a fan of the content come to find out he had this wealth of knowledge of filmmaking and we became a team.

[00:38:43] So he and I together created this whole season two of lesbian homie. And it's probably the best thing I've ever done producing. Written, and he has a lot to do with it. He was, he's an inspirational dude and I'm all about organic relationships. And our relationship is very organic, even though he came to LA and he wanted to meet me because he wanted to let me know what he can do.

[00:39:07] And once I'm, once we met clicked, we had the same type of style. So my team is small. Still. My goal is to branch out and delegate some of those, uh, roles that he does to other people. But to be honest with you, I'm particular. You know, I have a certain style that hood good style and how I edit, how I write.

[00:39:27] It's hard for me to like, have other people write for me or other people edit my stuff, but I don't have time to do all of this stuff. I've written over 400 sketches. You know what I'm saying? So it gets to the point where I got to delegate some things. So I can't be doing everything myself. My team is small, but I know over the years I've worked on bigger projects and I've done.

[00:39:48] I've hired. I do have access to other people who, like I said, I grew up, I came in in this game. Directing and DP work. So I know a lot of other DPS that have camera year and have experience. So when it comes time for me to shoot my actual film, I can have a cast. Wardrobe VP camera assistance, gaffing crew.

[00:40:08] I know I have enough resources and a Rolodex of people I can contact when I need to do a full production. 

[00:40:13] Dan Runcie: It's impressive. What you've been able to do with the small team. I mean, outside in someone could look and see, I go, I'm sure he has a whole crew of people that are working with this. But like you said, you have people that are wearing multiple hats.

[00:40:25] They're shipping in here and there to do things, and that's ultimately how you build. And I think you ultimately do get to the place where. Things kind of continue to expand, but there's also no reason to make things bigger than they need to. Part of the beauty is you being able to be nimble and having a team that appears bigger than it is.

[00:40:42] I feel like that's the most powerful position to be in. And for you with that, what's on deck for you for the next few years. Now that things are opening back up now that the pandemic is starting to subside. What do you see for the next couple of years? What are you most excited about? I know you want to get more behind the camera, but is there any specific projects or anything else that we should keep an eye out for? 

[00:41:04] Bigg Jah: Yeah. Yes, sir. I don't know when, because I'm still assembling. It's still being written, but I'm wanting to do a film wrapped around the character Tiberius. I'm doing a Tiberius film and I'm excited about that. I think that's going to be a big thing. I hopefully the, I haven't brought Tiberius out in the long run.

[00:41:21] And maybe, I'm praying that the supporters, fans, supporters, I call them supportive. Most likely, usually it will still let the idea of becoming that with a movie for type area. So audition still have an agent I saw audition for other roles. And I'm open to do other projects for other companies, other studios, but as far as my stuff, even one or two at one of the two are going to happen.

[00:41:44] I'm either going to shoot the film this year are going toward this year. And if I don't shoot this feminist year and I still do go on tour, I want to be, I don't want the film with within the next year. The defendant would be, we made it in the film. So whether, and I can do it independently, like I said, I'm at the point now where I'm, it's a blessing to be able to say, I can just do this myself.

[00:42:06] I know how to, I know how to create film, just do it myself. And I have enough people around me, good people who are, are good at what they do to make a dope film. 

[00:42:15] Dan Runcie: That's exciting, man. It's good stuff. Good stuff. Hey, Bigg Jah this has been great. Before we let you go, though, where should the chapter audience follow you to keep posted with what you're doing and everything that you got coming up?

[00:42:28] Bigg Jah: You can follow me everywhere @Biggjah. B-I-G-G J-A-H. As YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tik Tok, I'll be on Tik Tok doing all kinds of stuff. I'll be dancing around. Naw, I'm not doing too much, but I do a little. I'm on all platforms at Bigg Jah. My website's Biggjah.com.

[00:42:51] The Hood Good Store go get your merge. If you want to support, it's all love you. It's love anyways, but go to thehoodgoodstore.com. That's T-H-E-H-O-O-D-G-O-O-D-S-T-O-R-E.COM. That's the https://thehoodgoodstore.com. You can get almost most of the stuff I wear in my sketches.

[00:43:09] This is my own company is my own brand and I sell it myself. Much love to you all. If you have any more questions, I got answers. 

[00:43:16] Dan Runcie: Good stuff, man. Good stuff, Jah. Appreciate you coming on 

[00:43:19] Bigg Jah: Thank you so much, bro. 

[00:43:21] Dan Runcie: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend, copy of the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat,

post it in your slack groups, wherever you and your people talk. Spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show.

[00:43:49] Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2773 no How indify’s Co-Founder prettyboyshav Is Flipping The Economics Of The Record Business https://www.trapital.com/podcast The traditional record label model isn’t artist-friendly. That’s not a secret to anyone by now. Deals are notoriously long and feature a revenue split heavily tilted toward the label — not the artist. But an ambitious alternative has arisen in the last few years. Meet indify, a start-up co-founded by musician prettyboyshav and his two childhood best friends, Matthew Pavia and Connor Lawrence. indify is a platform that connects investors with up-and-coming artists. Investors can not only financially back artists, but also mentor them in matters like legal or marketing. But unlike a record deal, investments can be as short as a song-per-song basis. As prettyboyshav told me, it’s like “going on dates instead of marrying.”  As an artist himself with millions of streams to his name, Prettyboyshav is specially equipped to carry out indify’s vision — to create a more equitable, prosperous music industry. indify was originally a music discovery tool when it launched in 2015. Using an algorithm, it identified emerging artists on the cusp of “blowing up” like Khalid, who the tool flagged way back in 2015. That technology still underpins its new business pivot as the “AngeList for the music industry.”  To get a glimpse into indify’s innovative technology and mission, listen to my full interview with prettyboyshav. We covered a lot of topics, including the ones below:   [3:39] indify’s Mission In The Music Industry  [5:28] Why Artists Are Taken Advantage Of So Often [7:03] What Does indify Look For In Investors Wanting To Join The Platform?  [10:16] The Potential For Culture-Setters To Financially Back An Emerging Artist [14:38] indify Vs. Record Labels  [19:07] Is There A Glass Ceiling On Artists Who Don’t Sign With A Record Label?  [23:35] Does indify Do Upfront Money Deals?  [26:10] Principles That Guard indify’s Technology [29:27] indify Having Web 3.0 Values Despite Being Off-Chain  [33:11] How prettyboyshav Juggles His Music Career And Being Start-Up Founder Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: prettyboyshav, @prettyboyshav   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION prettyboyshav 00:00 I truly, truly, deeply believe in it and feel it and empathize with the work that's being done because I believe in these values, which really comes down to community, right? And community ownership, community governance, I think these things are very powerful concepts. And I think these are very powerful ways for an artist to run their business. Dan Runcie 00:26 Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's guest is prettyboyshav. He's the co-founder and CEO of Indify, a platform that is helping people invest in the future of music. Indify connects merchant artists with the funding they need to build the biggest careers. On Indify, it brings together artists who want to grow and control their career on their terms. It also brings together investors who want to support and back these artists and have the know how to help bring them to the next level. It also brings together business partners who can help artists with marketing, legal, accounting, and many of the other things involved to help run the business. One of the things that Shav and I have always talked about and we agree on is that artists are founders. If you follow me anywhere, you've seen me talk about this, you see me reiterate this. And I think Shav himself is a great example of this. He very much approaches Indify this way, and he's also a recording artist himself, prettyboyshav has over 10 million streams. And we talked a lot about what it's been like for him, navigating both the CEO role and his role as an artist. But we also talk about what Indify has been up to and some of their progress they've ha. The company has had over a million dollars generated this past quarter and 2022 for the artists on its platform and over a billion streams for those artists collectively as well. We talk about the influence that some of the partners they've had as well, such as Alexis Ohanian, who was an early investor in Indify, some of the artists that he's been able to back, and ultimately what they're trying to build towards. We talked about how Indify is positioned relative to other alternative financing options in the music industry. We also talked about how it's positioned relative to record labels. And can an artist on one of these alternative financing platforms achieve the same success as the superstars that are on the major record labels? The folks that headline major music festivals, perform at the Super Bowl and things like that? This is a great conversation. And if you're interested in where the music industry is going, some other options, you'll love this one. Here's my chat with prettyboyshav. All right, we got the one and only prettyboyshav here with us today. He is the co-founder CEO of Indify, platform and a company that is helping artists embrace their independence. He is also an artist himself with over 10 million streams. Shav, welcome to the pod. prettyboyshav 03:15 What's up, Dan? Good to be here, man. I've been wanting to come on here for a while. Dan Runcie 03:19 Yeah. And I mean, you know that I've been following everything that you've all been doing. And it's been very interesting to see how you've navigated the industry and how you leverage the technology built to continue to do good things. So for those that are less familiar, what is Indify and what is it that you all are trying to help solve in the music industry? prettyboyshav 03:39 Well, Indify is a marketplace that's helping artists raise funding on equitable terms from strategic partners. You could think of it as almost like AngelList for music. I think our premise is that the major labels and a lot of the old system and the traditional system, the music industry, kind of represent what you know, private equity did years ago on the venture side. And I think fortunately, we have things like YC and AngelList. Actually, one of these tweets is the Kanye tweet from around fall 2020, where he kind of talked about a lot of things that we've been talking about, but we think it's time that a lot of those standardized, founder-friendly, and digitize terms come to help artists who we believe are also founders raise funding equitably. Yeah. So it's been exciting. I think this is an evolution from our earlier platform, which was really just a discovery tool for the music industry and became an industry-standard tool across a ton of record labels and ended up identifying a ton of artists, early one that we're very known for is Khalid. Dan Runcie 04:34 Nice, and I got to mention, because you mentioned the Kanye tweets behind you. Is one of those the one that's talked about the Y Combinator for the music industry? prettyboyshav 04:43 Yes, that's exactly what it is, you know, “When I spoke to Katie Jacobs who's on the board of the Vivendi. We decided to create a YC for the music industry so artists have the power and transparency to be in control of our future. No more shady contracts, no more lifelong deals.” And this one is Alexis tweeting Blonde, because I showed Alexis Ohanian, who's our investor. I was like, man, you got to get deeper into Blonde and Frank Ocean because this thing is amazing. Dan Runcie 05:05 Yeah, it's an amazing album. And I think, thinking more broadly about what you all are building, I think that venture for music is the pitch I've heard from you. I've heard references well with where you're seeing with this, but I feel like you're taking a bit of a more unique take on it than maybe just the YC model. So what does that look like? What do you see things playing out for you? prettyboyshav 05:28 Well, I think what YC did, right, in building the safe and standardized docs, and more documentation and transparency has allowed founders to see, okay, what is par for the course? What are founder-friendly terms? You know, if you don't use a safe note, for a raise, or standardized docs, you're kind of, you know, totally left field, a ton of artists, I would say, you know, just anecdotally, like, one out of three artists we meet, a very high percentage have actually signed some sort of predatory, shady contract before they even get off the ground. And the lack of standardization at that early stage if you compare it to Venture Seed, Series A, Pre-seed, has made it so a lot of artists get taken advantage of at inception. And I think that's something that's very core to Indify to prevent that from happening to build the tools and education system so that artists can have an ecosystem or have kind of technology, such that they're protected. Dan Runcie 06:20 And I think a lot of that you mentioned the partners they work with and the people they meet, because that, of course, is how people ended up in either good contracts or bad contracts. That's a lot of what's there right? And I think you've spoken before about this distinction between smart money versus dumb money, which I know has also been very common in investing and in tech as well. And I think the same can be said in music. And I know that you all do your job on both sides, both the artist side and the investor side to determine who can be entered into the program. So yeah, let's start with the investor side. What are the things that you look for when someone wants to join your platform because they want to invest in an artist? prettyboyshav 07:03 Yeah, I think, you know, building on kind of some of the points you were making earlier to Dan, like, what is protection for artists? What is being artists first? This is something that at Indify we studied for six years, and these are nuanced questions, and I've studied it myself as an artist, right? You know, there's a ton of funding solutions that are out there, some fan investing, some loan investing, but you know, if it is a finance bro buying your song, or if it is, you know, a loan against your own streams, a lot of the times this can put the artists in a worse position than if they were to take no money at all, because now they're in the hole, X amount of dollars. And if all those dollars are not spent, wisely are spent in a way that they're amplifying, ultimately, your platform as an artist or your income as an artist. Now, you're not increasing your income, and you're in the hole 10, 20, 50k. And that's something that I think, you know, is important to make a distinction about because artists are founders. And we're not necessarily seeing founders prioritize capital, but prioritize the best partners when they're raising funds for their companies. I think the same is true for the smart business owners that are artists. And I think they should be respected as such, many of them are making six, seven figures a year that work with Indify. And part of the reason that that is, is they're not only I think, CEOs in their own right, and building their business on platforms like TikTok, Instagram, social media, shipping every day, right? Like we talked about shipping with founders, these artists are shipping every day. They're putting their stories out there, they're connecting with people. But they're also very, very smart to find business partners that know how to digital market their music, that know how to manage their operations, and they're hiring these partners and partnering with investors. And so what we look for, you know, there's generally two kinds of cohorts, I would say, one is spark music professionals that have had experienced breaking artists before. And we have certain kinds of thresholds for that, one of the thresholds we talked about is, has this partner work with an artist that has reached over 30,000 streams a day or not, even previous time? Or also, you know, influencers themselves. I think that's something that we're really excited about. It's a bit more on the early stage. But, for example, Alexis Ohanian invested in the artist Leah Kate, I think around, you know, when he least identified her on the platform, and he, that was all him. He went on the platform and he found her. She was even lower on the rank. She was at around 3000 streams per day. He's helped her grow using his platform and his base to now over a million streams a day. And we think that's an incredible example of a partnership. And we think those combinations together, a syndicate of sorts of these strategic professionals with strategic influencers that can gift an audience to younger artists, is the new way of music industry. Dan Runcie 09:51 I'm sure there must be some nuance there, right because of course, someone like Alexis who is a fan, he understands that clearly, he has a lot of influence to be able to make things happen. But I'm sure you may also get interest for people in tech, let's say they were early at a startup, startup exited, they have some extra money. They may know nothing about the music industry, but they just want to get in. How are those conversations? prettyboyshav 10:16 Well, I think, Alexis, and I'll tell the story, like, Alexis tweeted, I wish I could invest in Lizzo enterprises. And I tweeted back, invest in the next one on Indify, and somebody showed him the tweet, somehow, I caught him for five minutes at the US Open actually, and told him music investing safe, he said, you're a crazy person. Investing in music can't be safe, I tried it. And he, actually, you know, put his money where his mouth is, and he backed an artist. But I think with that was the spirit of somebody who wanted to help that artist and grow, with that was the spirit of somebody who wanted to spend time with Leah, who was a founder and help her develop both as an artist and as a businesswoman, an independent businesswoman who's building an incredible seven-figure per year revenue business. And so I think that that development, and I think more so with him, the ability to empower her as an entrepreneur. And that story, getting out there, I think, was what made for something really exciting with Leah. But I think what's really interesting is now bigger artists actually coming into the fold. We actually a huge artist, I'm not at liberty to say yet, in Q1, backed an artist, one of my favorite artists of all time, and this I think is going to happen more and more. What happens if LeBron starts backing artists on Indify, right? What happens if, you know, actors and actresses? What happens if Lisa, right, starts backing artists on Indify? I mean, these are artists that can bring real taste, culture, and audiences to those next generation of emerging artists. And I think when you're posed with signing your rights away to a major label or partnering with someone like that, I think it's a really exciting proposition for the future. Dan Runcie 11:48 Yeah, this reminds me of an idea that I think it was Jack Butcher, if someone like that had mentioned on a podcast about looking at someone like a Canelo Alvarez or even Deontay Wilder, you have these prizefighters, boxers, and if they invest in artists, that artist is the one that walks out with them when they're doing their walk-up music, that is a huge platform, so able to introduce someone like that. I think that is so powerful. prettyboyshav 12:14 I saw that clip and shout out Jack Butcher and Visualize Value, and everything he's doing. He has an amazing podcast too, he's a friend. And I think that's such an amazing concept, right? Like, I think as a society, we're yearning for cross-cultural moments, you know what I mean? You see it so much with even the Paul's fighting in boxing. And you know, Paul-Mayweather, what a crazy event that was, or Conor McGregor-Mayweather and I think, more and more, I think you're gonna see culture crossover, right. And I like that fun there. But like, you know, music is in our DNA. And people talk about sometimes they asked me, like, you know, what's the market in music? What's the market of streaming? What's the opportunity? And I'm like, well, there's 7 billion of us in the world. We all like music, right? So I think everybody is on the table to be a part of the story. And I think that's why it's so powerful. I think we've wanted solutions for music for such a long time. But I think for us, you know, it's been these strategic partners, and pairing them with, you know, and our ability to identify artists, I think is the best out there in all honesty, pairing them with artists with traction, that's when one plus one equals 100. I mean, in the last year or so we've helped artists reach over a billion streams independently. And this is rea on the ground effort, and real on the ground connections, that is making a difference in these lives, not in terms of just a one-time cash-out. But many of these artists are now making six, and some seven figures per year over, you know, what could be the rest of their careers. And that's the beauty of when you do break through on streaming, what it can do for you can create sustainability as an artist, I think it's something that we're very proud of, in our cohort of artists helping them get to. Dan Runcie 13:48 So let's talk a little bit more about the benefits and what artists do you get. Because I think a lot of people, they hear options like Indify, they're thinking about it as an alternative to maybe going with their traditional record label and doing that type of deal. And on the surface. Of course, if an artist is working with Indify, I believe the terms is up to 50% and rotating ownership for their masters is what they offer. I know there are some record label deals that do offer that. But if you could talk a little bit more about the distinction there. And if there are certain things that you think that you offer as a replacement, and then are there certain things where you still think that an artist would need to still find elsewhere, they should find elsewhere, and may be a bit of the itemization of where Indify's value add is relative to what the artists would get on a record label. prettyboyshav 14:38 Well, I think talking more just technically to start, if you look at the traditional record industry contract and what standard and this is for people out there who don't know, generally they're like, aghast when I explain this, but a typical record deal is, this is the deal that a lot of these greats have signed A typically a record deal Is 85%-15% in favor of the major label, a five-album deal. And over the course of a lifetime of copyright plus like seven years. It's like the traditional kind of deal. So that means an entire artist’s career, that they're sort of signing away at 17, 16, 20 years old, but are involved in for the next 10 to 15 years of their career. And I think that time period also matters. Also, for the capital advance, you get, right, like you see these artists get all these nice things upfront, I think that upfront cost is massive. It's massive, because you're not only, in a typical loan, you pay, you know, your 100% of your rights would pay back that loan, right? In this case, your 15% has to pay back that initial advance, let's say it's 100k, 200k, 500k, meaning you're in the whole millions, right of dollars, before you see 15 cents on the dollar. And that's after there is and these are some of the things that I find the most predatory, a 25% distribution fee, which costs $20 on this circuit, or, you know, accounting that is just less than clean and clear, I'll say. And so I think on the converse side, I think a lot of these infrastructural issues are initially what we're trying to fix, you know, beyond just I think the terms, but if we put it plain and simple on terms, I mean, a lot of artists on our platforms start with raising for one song, right? With a partner that they talked to, and they might have interest from a ton of partners, messages from the ton of partners on the platform, speak with them. And if they liked that partner, generally these deals are for one song, only three to five years. And after the initial investment is paid back, I think we see a lot of 70-30 kind of splits in favor of the artists. So it's quite literally flipping the economics and making the commitment significantly less. And I think honestly, one of the other things that I've heard, you know, people talk about one of the greatest forms of control is slowness. I think, you know, these contracts, they take sometimes six weeks to six months to a year to fully kind of work through. On Indify we're seeing, you know, you can raise one song, try a partner, try another partner for another song, if you liked them, do an EP. And you can do that investment. You know, using this platform. Again, all of the actual legal terms are in our outsourced to our like TOS and our super artist-friendly, we have our sort of indie note that like backs that, but you're then just deciding for simple terms, once those are decided it can take 45 minutes to raise, and you can capitalize on that moment that's happening on TikTok, or on Instagram immediately with some of the best marketers and managers in the business that are doing a lot of, a lot of the heavy lifting behind the scenes, and are a lot of times the people who the label pay at a premium. And so I think that's for us why we feel Indify is really a better option. Because, you know, rather than diving in and getting married to a partner at the youngest possible age, you're in fact, just, you know, going on dates, I guess, with different partners and seeing, alright, who's the best fit for me, who's somebody that connect with? Who's the right value add investor for my project? Dan Runcie 18:01 I do think that last example, makes a ton of sense of that, essentially, because so much of it, especially with these five-album deals, you are signing away so much early on when, if you think about yourself as an asset, you've been de-risked, hopefully much earlier in the process if you end up being successful, but there's no opportunity to necessarily realize that until a bit later on in the process, and I know one thing that I do hear from people and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it is that with some of these alternative financing options, the terms are great, everything is effective from that perspective. However, people still have this question about, okay, well, what is the max that we could see an artist succeed? Can we see someone be this superstar that's performing at the Super Bowl or reaching these Billy Eilish or Olivia Rodrigo or Ariana Grande level of artists if they're not with one of the major record labels? You could still earn a living off of those, but can an artist reach that path? So it'd be great to hear your thoughts on that, and especially how you think that relates with Indify.  prettyboyshav 19:07 I'd really love that question. It's something that I think about a lot. It's something that I'm excited to experiment with myself. I think eventually, you know, something that I'm interested in is documenting, transcribing, and publishing my process of going through Indify with an artist with 10 million streams. I'm not quite, I think fairly qualified. So I'm actually posting my TikToks trying to get there. But I think as an artist, you get excited about seeing what, and as obviously as a founder, what the brink of this platform is. We've seen for transparency's sake a $400,000 deal happened on Indify. We've also seen deals for 10 to 50k, right, where the investor, you know, pre-release, invest in the song. Week one with some initial pre-release traction, and then I can talk about the Seaside demo example. That song was invested in on Sunday, it came out on Monday. By Wednesday, it was doing well, Nick Mueller and Golden Kids Group, he flagged it to Spotify. And he made sure the digital marketing was being spent wisely. So that week two, it's now doing 100,000 streams per day 200,000 streams per day, week three, week four, he's calling TikTok, calling Snapchat, calling Apple, calling all the right partners such that it reaches pop rising by week two, or three, and by week five, and hit Today's Top hits as an independent song. And this happened within the course of a month. I mean, you know, songs like that, without going into too much detail. When you do have that viral capacity, you could see a 30 or 50x, on your 10k investment. And we're seeing investors experienced that, you're seeing these artists, again, earn six to seven figures, from creating moments like that. And beyond that, you know, just working with these partners, when it doesn't happen at that level, you're seeing, I think 80 or 90% of these deals on the platform are profitable. So quite literally, you have what is a low ceiling, or a low risk, high ceiling asset class, which I think is incredibly unique, especially because we're de-risking those things by only allowing the artists to come on and see strategic partners and only allowing the partners to come on and see artists with traction and be able to invest in them right on the platform and then be able to earn out directly through kind of this whole ecosystem and technology that we've built. And I think what we've seen in the last year, even the last quarter Jx.Zero, I think he reached 700 or 800,000 streams a day. Leah is now doing a million streams per day. Pink Sweat$, who was the first artist to raise way back when this was even off platform. Leah was the first one on platform with Alexis. Off platform, Pink did a funding partnership, a funding deal to start his career. I mean, he's had a platinum record. He's in the top 500 of the world, and he's at Coachella. And that's the only artists that's had a few years to develop. I think the next superstars are already happening on Indify, I think that's a given. I just think that just like startups, these are going to take time. But if you look at the last year, and even if you look at the last quarter, I think we had three or four songs hit the global viral chart last quarter, and these artists are on their way to be great. And I think just to add one more thing, if you look at Kanye West's top songs on Spotify, his jeen-yuhs just came out, College Dropout was spotlighted in that, like crazy. I mean, what an amazing doc. But if you look at his Spotify, his number one song is Praise God, right? If his number one, why is his number one some Praise God? I mean, Moon. I love that song. Arguably a better song in my view, praise God is a great song. Off of Donda, there's a million tracks that are doing well but that's the only song off Donda that's number one. No, the jeen-yuhs doc didn't move anything to number one in terms of The College Dropout and the songs that were spotlighted. So why is it that Praise God is the number one song on Kanye's catalog. Kanye West are the biggest artists the world, because on TikTok it reached 1.5 million videos. The investors on Indify are the best at marketing on TikTok and social media. And it's my belief that not only should the next generation of emerging artists raise funding on Indify, but it's my belief that the current generation of superstars will start to in the next few years. Dan Runcie 22:58 It's a compelling pitch. And I think normally at this stage, you of course, are able to incentivize artists with the amount that they could earn by essentially starting around and using their songs as around or using an album is around, right? Is there any upfront pitch or financing though that would happen? So let's say there is a major artist that's like, Oh, hey, I see what you all are doing, I'm down. But if you could give me some upfront money, not necessarily an advance or some type of upfront money, what would that look like? Is that something that you've all explored? Or has that come up at all? prettyboyshav 23:35 You know, it's so funny. One, bigger artists are approaching us. I think that's actually, to my surprise, I didn't think we'd be at that stage yet. It's a dream. It really is a dream, what we get to do every day, a chance to serve some of these artists gives me chills, because these are artists that are heroes. And to know that we built the infrastructure better than the old. In fact, the pitch is much easier to them than the new artist because they've been through the system. They know what it looks like from the inside. Generally... Dan Runcie 24:01 So you don’t have to say the artist but could you give us like a tier, like what level is one of the ones that have reached out? prettyboyshav 24:07 I would say an important megastar. I won't say like, I think that's the right, I'll give that to you. That's what I'll give. Dan Runcie 24:14 Okay, okay. Someone that would have headlined Coachella?  prettyboyshav 24:18 Yes, absolutely. Dan Runcie 24:19 Okay. Okay.  prettyboyshav 24:20 I think you'll see artists that would headline Coachella, and that people would be most excited about on the bill, especially in Brooklyn, where I'm at, where there is a care for culture and art, and these things that we've been excited about. I think those are the artists who were excited to serve, man. You know, like it'd be a dream to work with and help Frank Ocean raise for his next project. I mean, he's the guy that started this model years ago, and I think these artists deserve credit, not just as artists, but as entrepreneurs. But yeah, to your question on Indify, you'd be shocked. Artists are on there negotiating down the amount of initial sort of capital they'll get, because they only want the right amount, not the most amount, because they don't want to earn on their advance. They want to earn on their equity, they want to earn on the business. And that's to me, the generation of founders as artists or founders that we're looking to empower. And I think I'm excited to help the superstars, you know, earn off of their streams too as they should, because their pies are going to look a lot bigger. Dan Runcie 25:17 Yeah, I think the interesting test I've always looked at was when Taylor Swift had finished her record label deal that she was on the open market/ She was exploring options, and everyone wondered, what is she going to do. She obviously wants to own her masters moving forward. And she ended up doing a licensing deal with Republic Records, which she has been now and she's released, I believe, three albums now, under that deal. I think that, what you're saying is that if we could get to the point where now the market is at a different place than it was in 2018, with options like yours, that now have the option or opportunity for a megastar, who is out of their deal. They've been de-risked they already are a star, what could it look like for them to be like, okay, now that I'm done with this deal, now, I want to go to Indify? prettyboyshav 26:10 Yeah, I think you're gonna see a lot of that happening. I'm very confident in that. And I think those are conversations that are happening faster than we expected, I think what, you know, going back to the Taylor Swift moment, and you actually did an amazing breakdown of what was going on with her. And just for anyone who's listening, like, I know, you're already on Trapital, because you're listening to the podcast. But I do believe, Dan, what you're doing is some of the most accurate breakdowns in the market. I mean that. It's a joy to listen to these podcasts. It's a dream to be on here. And it's so cool to read your newsletter, you know, every time it comes out. I think, going back to the Taylor one, because I remember you breaking it down. And obviously, we're nerds about this stuff. So we should talk about it. But you know, on Indify, there's three main principles that guard the technology on the platform. One, artists own the rights forever. You know, artist kids deserve to have their music, we think that's the fundamental, maybe even a human right, not just a right that we believe they should have. And that's something that, you know, an ownership deal will never happen and in the fight, and I would hold Web 3.0 platforms to that same standard, because I think a lot of them are doing ownership deals. And I think that's going backwards. I think a lot of the music industry is moving forward from that. So it's something that I believe just very strongly as an artist, we need to move forward from. Two, artists deals are always 50% or better after the initial investment is returned on Indify. The platform is like locked in, like error out if you start to put in terms that break that. And third, artists always keep creative control. And that's the way these docs are formatted. I mean, for an artists like Taylor Swift, who's brought a lot more value to these companies, and, you know, arguably bigger than some of these institutions ourselves. She deserves to be the CEO of her own life and our own art. And she deserves to make every decision the way she wants to, she deserves to pass that on to her kids. The fact that artists like that can't do that, and then what she has to now go through to make that music, you know, listen to equitably out there is insane, it's out of control, and it shouldn't exist. And I think, you know, we need tools that we need new solutions, to rewrite how this is going to work for the next generation of Taylor Swifts. I think, Indify, you know, I hope that we can have a conversation with her about doing stuff with her future projects to make sure that, again, she can build her business equitably, own her business, but still get those strategic partners and marketers needed to take the next level. Dan Runcie 28:30 You mentioned Web 3.0 earlier, and some of the solutions there and what you hope those solutions will offer to artists. And I think a lot of people have talked and thought about the Web 3.0 opportunities in music and positioned it as a use case to do or in many ways, what Indify is doing and you are proving with your platform that this can happen. It is happening off-chain, and it doesn't necessarily need to be done through 3.0 or through NFTs or things like that. Some of these things you may be exploring in the future. But where do you stand right now in that aspect, because I do feel like a lot of the other companies that are positioning themselves to try to solve a similar problem have positioned themselves as the Web 3.0 solution for this. But you've been a bit more focused on saying, hey, this can exist, it doesn't necessarily need to happen that way.  prettyboyshav 29:27 I mean, look, I think you really broke it down best, as you do in the A16Z piece you wrote, the music tech community is going to need to, at large, both Web 2.0, and Web 3.0, and Web 2.5, and everything in between is going to need to tackle different problems for artists for us to build an ecosystem that's competitive with these goliaths of the old, you know, and I think us working together and us holding each other accountable having these conversations and I love how I think Web 3.0 has pushed Indify to be more open and more inclusive. I have a lot of friends in the community who've, you know, shown me incredible values and the incredible depths of what this movement is about. And I truly, truly deeply believe in it, and feel it, and empathize with the work that's being done. Because I believe in these values, which is really comes down to community, right, and community ownership, community governance, I think these things are very powerful concepts. And I think these are very powerful ways for an artist to run their business. I, you know, I have so much love for what sound and what catalog and what some of these companies are doing. I think there are amazing founders behind those companies. I think they're building amazing tools for artists to earn different and new revenue streams on their music. And I think all of us need to really come together and work together to build this infrastructure for new artists. I think one of the things that I'm yearning for, one of the things I haven't yet I think fully see in the space that I'm excited about, is something that maybe more reflects an artist DAO of sorts. And again, I'm still in the first inning of this, all of this understanding all of this as most people are, but something I'm going to experiment with. Again, like the way I've always operated with prettyboyshav and you know, the artist career and being the founder of Indify as co founder with Connor and Matt who I've built this with, you know, my best friend since day one is, like, I experiment and we experiment, me, Connor and Matt experiment and kind of create these different like processes with the prettyboyshav. We hack at my Spotify For Artists, we do all this crazy stuff, to learn, right, and to experiment and to figure things out. And then a lot of that, a lot of that failure becomes what is knowledge and R&D into I think the Indify roadmap. I think that's an amazing way to stay grounded and stay into focus. For me, one of the things I'm going to do is and I published my goals at the beginning of this year, I not only want to raise on Indify and published and transcribe that, that for the public to see. But I also want to, as an artist, do some Web 3.0 experiments. And I'm basically launching this physical and digital trading card experience that is going to be like my mecca for my pretty community. And so it's going to come, you know, if you get it, you can basically like, see a roadmap for the prettyboyshav art, you can come get your nails painted with me, you can listen to some exclusive music. And I think those community events, that superfan access, I think is something I'm really excited to just play with on the Web 3.0 side and to see happen in the space. Dan Runcie 32:21 It's great to hear, because I think you can see both sides of this, you understand what needs to be done and not just using yourself as not even more, not even a use case. But essentially you understand what needs to be built, what you would want for yourself as an artist and how you navigate all of that, as well. And while we have the time, we'd love to chat a little bit more about you and what you've been doing with your artists career on that front. First off, how you manage the time between the two, because I'm sure it's both hats to wear. And I'm sure it's a lot from that perspective, but how have you navigated doing both of those things? And I know that you've also said in past interviews, you want to be known more for music moving forward. So how does that continue to or how does that evolution continue to progress based on where you see things going? prettyboyshav 33:11 Yeah, well, I think, I appreciate it, that question. You know, me, myself, Connor and Matt, we've always understood that there's this fluidity, I think, between myself being an artist and being a part of the company. And in fact, I think we've all come to realize it's a huge advantage. When I talk to artists, I relate to them, I can understand their problems when we make decisions, you know, in the room. And I think I consider Connor and Matt artists and themselves. I think Matt, what he does on a technical level and building this tool, I've always fallen in love with the art of tech. And building product is very much like making music. It's a new creative entity that didn't exist before that you created the outside world. I think it's very similar. And I think Connor himself is a writer and an incredible artist. And if you don't have art and tech, then what do you have? You know, so I think we've all come to understand that, that the prettyboyshav journey is our guinea pig. And it's a part of our story. And it's cool. It's really cool. I think more than anything, the company is us three, and to have their support in that I think is first and foremost. And to have investors supporting them too, I think is first and foremost, I think people understand that it only really makes me better as a founder. And they're one and the same. You know, being an artist and having more artists lead music companies is kind of, I hope, the wave of the future. I think on a personal level. You know, I'm really proud of the music I've put out there. I think it's some of the best music out there, whether I'm a co-founder of that company or not. And I have a new album coming up that I think is just a huge step of growth and I think addresses a lot of my own values of growing up as an Indian American understanding my own perspective, telling my own story. And it's a story that when I was 15 the two things that my sort of Northstar were, were, man, I wish I could be an artist without having to be Drake and just being you know a sustainable artist because this is what I love to do. Why is it that somebody can be an accountant but I can't be a musician, right? And why can't those existences coexist? And I think for me, I think just seeing more people like me making pop music, more people like me, getting our nails painted, wearing earrings, wearing cool clothes, and breaking kind of the boxes that that we were put into. So, for me, I think all of this stuff comes from a deep sense of mission and a deep sense of serving our 15-year-old self. It's something that Virgil talked about a lot. And I think that's ultimately, you know, what I'm in service to when it comes to both Indify and the artists journey, but it's cool to see them coming together more and more, I had my first interaction where, I was actually with Peter Boyce and John Exley and we were in LA celebrating Peter installation actually just invested in the company. And it just turned Peter's birthday, and we were sitting having a great time. And somebody came up to the randomly and was like, Are you prettyboyshav? And you know, as a kid, you always, see, I was more excited than her. But as a kid, you always wonder, as an artist that'll ever happen. I think that moment is one that you know, we all got to share together, John and Peter, we wouldn't be here without them. They've been supporting for six, seven years. So to have that with them, you know, and be on this journey together, I think is super cool. Dan Runcie 36:05 That's powerful. And those stories are always great when you hear them because you know your, it definitely won't be the last time. prettyboyshav 36:11 Yeah, yeah. Let's see. Got more work to do then. Dan Runcie 36:15 Well, Shav, this is great. Thanks so much for coming on and sharing both your journey as an artist and your journey as a founder, as we both say artists are founders and you're a great embodiment of that statement. But before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug? or love for the Trapital audience to know about? prettyboyshav 36:32 Yeah, I would just say you know, follow Indify on Instagram and Twitter. I think it's a good follow. And, you know, we've done a lot of work behind the scenes in the last year and a half. I think we've got to do a better job of telling our story in front of the scenes and there's gonna be a lot of content coming in the next year and storytelling coming out of these artists and these incredible stories, you're going to find amazing music, so you know, give us a follow, follow the journey. Come along. Dan Runcie 36:57 Good stuff. Good stuff. Thanks, man.  prettyboyshav 37:00 Cool. Thanks so much, Dan. Dan Runcie 37:02 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 06 May 2022 08:00:00 -0000 How indify’s Co-Founder prettyboyshav Is Flipping The Economics Of The Record Business full Dan Runcie The traditional record label model isn’t artist-friendly. That’s not a secret to anyone by now. Deals are notoriously long and feature a revenue split heavily tilted toward the label — not the artist. But an ambitious alternative has arisen in the last few years. Meet indify, a start-up co-founded by musician prettyboyshav and his two childhood best friends, Matthew Pavia and Connor Lawrence. indify is a platform that connects investors with up-and-coming artists. Investors can not only financially back artists, but also mentor them in matters like legal or marketing. But unlike a record deal, investments can be as short as a song-per-song basis. As prettyboyshav told me, it’s like “going on dates instead of marrying.”  As an artist himself with millions of streams to his name, Prettyboyshav is specially equipped to carry out indify’s vision — to create a more equitable, prosperous music industry. indify was originally a music discovery tool when it launched in 2015. Using an algorithm, it identified emerging artists on the cusp of “blowing up” like Khalid, who the tool flagged way back in 2015. That technology still underpins its new business pivot as the “AngeList for the music industry.”  To get a glimpse into indify’s innovative technology and mission, listen to my full interview with prettyboyshav. We covered a lot of topics, including the ones below:   [3:39] indify’s Mission In The Music Industry  [5:28] Why Artists Are Taken Advantage Of So Often [7:03] What Does indify Look For In Investors Wanting To Join The Platform?  [10:16] The Potential For Culture-Setters To Financially Back An Emerging Artist [14:38] indify Vs. Record Labels  [19:07] Is There A Glass Ceiling On Artists Who Don’t Sign With A Record Label?  [23:35] Does indify Do Upfront Money Deals?  [26:10] Principles That Guard indify’s Technology [29:27] indify Having Web 3.0 Values Despite Being Off-Chain  [33:11] How prettyboyshav Juggles His Music Career And Being Start-Up Founder Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: prettyboyshav, @prettyboyshav   Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. TRANSCRIPTION prettyboyshav 00:00 I truly, truly, deeply believe in it and feel it and empathize with the work that's being done because I believe in these values, which really comes down to community, right? And community ownership, community governance, I think these things are very powerful concepts. And I think these are very powerful ways for an artist to run their business. Dan Runcie 00:26 Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's guest is prettyboyshav. He's the co-founder and CEO of Indify, a platform that is helping people invest in the future of music. Indify connects merchant artists with the funding they need to build the biggest careers. On Indify, it brings together artists who want to grow and control their career on their terms. It also brings together investors who want to support and back these artists and have the know how to help bring them to the next level. It also brings together business partners who can help artists with marketing, legal, accounting, and many of the other things involved to help run the business. One of the things that Shav and I have always talked about and we agree on is that artists are founders. If you follow me anywhere, you've seen me talk about this, you see me reiterate this. And I think Shav himself is a great example of this. He very much approaches Indify this way, and he's also a recording artist himself, prettyboyshav has over 10 million streams. And we talked a lot about what it's been like for him, navigating both the CEO role and his role as an artist. But we also talk about what Indify has been up to and some of their progress they've ha. The company has had over a million dollars generated this past quarter and 2022 for the artists on its platform and over a billion streams for those artists collectively as well. We talk about the influence that some of the partners they've had as well, such as Alexis Ohanian, who was an early investor in Indify, some of the artists that he's been able to back, and ultimately what they're trying to build towards. We talked about how Indify is positioned relative to other alternative financing options in the music industry. We also talked about how it's positioned relative to record labels. And can an artist on one of these alternative financing platforms achieve the same success as the superstars that are on the major record labels? The folks that headline major music festivals, perform at the Super Bowl and things like that? This is a great conversation. And if you're interested in where the music industry is going, some other options, you'll love this one. Here's my chat with prettyboyshav. All right, we got the one and only prettyboyshav here with us today. He is the co-founder CEO of Indify, platform and a company that is helping artists embrace their independence. He is also an artist himself with over 10 million streams. Shav, welcome to the pod. prettyboyshav 03:15 What's up, Dan? Good to be here, man. I've been wanting to come on here for a while. Dan Runcie 03:19 Yeah. And I mean, you know that I've been following everything that you've all been doing. And it's been very interesting to see how you've navigated the industry and how you leverage the technology built to continue to do good things. So for those that are less familiar, what is Indify and what is it that you all are trying to help solve in the music industry? prettyboyshav 03:39 Well, Indify is a marketplace that's helping artists raise funding on equitable terms from strategic partners. You could think of it as almost like AngelList for music. I think our premise is that the major labels and a lot of the old system and the traditional system, the music industry, kind of represent what you know, private equity did years ago on the venture side. And I think fortunately, we have things like YC and AngelList. Actually, one of these tweets is the Kanye tweet from around fall 2020, where he kind of talked about a lot of things that we've been talking about, but we think it's time that a lot of those standardized, founder-friendly, and digitize terms come to help artists who we believe are also founders raise funding equitably. Yeah. So it's been exciting. I think this is an evolution from our earlier platform, which was really just a discovery tool for the music industry and became an industry-standard tool across a ton of record labels and ended up identifying a ton of artists, early one that we're very known for is Khalid. Dan Runcie 04:34 Nice, and I got to mention, because you mentioned the Kanye tweets behind you. Is one of those the one that's talked about the Y Combinator for the music industry? prettyboyshav 04:43 Yes, that's exactly what it is, you know, “When I spoke to Katie Jacobs who's on the board of the Vivendi. We decided to create a YC for the music industry so artists have the power and transparency to be in control of our future. No more shady contracts, no more lifelong deals.” And this one is Alexis tweeting Blonde, because I showed Alexis Ohanian, who's our investor. I was like, man, you got to get deeper into Blonde and Frank Ocean because this thing is amazing. Dan Runcie 05:05 Yeah, it's an amazing album. And I think, thinking more broadly about what you all are building, I think that venture for music is the pitch I've heard from you. I've heard references well with where you're seeing with this, but I feel like you're taking a bit of a more unique take on it than maybe just the YC model. So what does that look like? What do you see things playing out for you? prettyboyshav 05:28 Well, I think what YC did, right, in building the safe and standardized docs, and more documentation and transparency has allowed founders to see, okay, what is par for the course? What are founder-friendly terms? You know, if you don't use a safe note, for a raise, or standardized docs, you're kind of, you know, totally left field, a ton of artists, I would say, you know, just anecdotally, like, one out of three artists we meet, a very high percentage have actually signed some sort of predatory, shady contract before they even get off the ground. And the lack of standardization at that early stage if you compare it to Venture Seed, Series A, Pre-seed, has made it so a lot of artists get taken advantage of at inception. And I think that's something that's very core to Indify to prevent that from happening to build the tools and education system so that artists can have an ecosystem or have kind of technology, such that they're protected. Dan Runcie 06:20 And I think a lot of that you mentioned the partners they work with and the people they meet, because that, of course, is how people ended up in either good contracts or bad contracts. That's a lot of what's there right? And I think you've spoken before about this distinction between smart money versus dumb money, which I know has also been very common in investing and in tech as well. And I think the same can be said in music. And I know that you all do your job on both sides, both the artist side and the investor side to determine who can be entered into the program. So yeah, let's start with the investor side. What are the things that you look for when someone wants to join your platform because they want to invest in an artist? prettyboyshav 07:03 Yeah, I think, you know, building on kind of some of the points you were making earlier to Dan, like, what is protection for artists? What is being artists first? This is something that at Indify we studied for six years, and these are nuanced questions, and I've studied it myself as an artist, right? You know, there's a ton of funding solutions that are out there, some fan investing, some loan investing, but you know, if it is a finance bro buying your song, or if it is, you know, a loan against your own streams, a lot of the times this can put the artists in a worse position than if they were to take no money at all, because now they're in the hole, X amount of dollars. And if all those dollars are not spent, wisely are spent in a way that they're amplifying, ultimately, your platform as an artist or your income as an artist. Now, you're not increasing your income, and you're in the hole 10, 20, 50k. And that's something that I think, you know, is important to make a distinction about because artists are founders. And we're not necessarily seeing founders prioritize capital, but prioritize the best partners when they're raising funds for their companies. I think the same is true for the smart business owners that are artists. And I think they should be respected as such, many of them are making six, seven figures a year that work with Indify. And part of the reason that that is, is they're not only I think, CEOs in their own right, and building their business on platforms like TikTok, Instagram, social media, shipping every day, right? Like we talked about shipping with founders, these artists are shipping every day. They're putting their stories out there, they're connecting with people. But they're also very, very smart to find business partners that know how to digital market their music, that know how to manage their operations, and they're hiring these partners and partnering with investors. And so what we look for, you know, there's generally two kinds of cohorts, I would say, one is spark music professionals that have had experienced breaking artists before. And we have certain kinds of thresholds for that, one of the thresholds we talked about is, has this partner work with an artist that has reached over 30,000 streams a day or not, even previous time? Or also, you know, influencers themselves. I think that's something that we're really excited about. It's a bit more on the early stage. But, for example, Alexis Ohanian invested in the artist Leah Kate, I think around, you know, when he least identified her on the platform, and he, that was all him. He went on the platform and he found her. She was even lower on the rank. She was at around 3000 streams per day. He's helped her grow using his platform and his base to now over a million streams a day. And we think that's an incredible example of a partnership. And we think those combinations together, a syndicate of sorts of these strategic professionals with strategic influencers that can gift an audience to younger artists, is the new way of music industry. Dan Runcie 09:51 I'm sure there must be some nuance there, right because of course, someone like Alexis who is a fan, he understands that clearly, he has a lot of influence to be able to make things happen. But I'm sure you may also get interest for people in tech, let's say they were early at a startup, startup exited, they have some extra money. They may know nothing about the music industry, but they just want to get in. How are those conversations? prettyboyshav 10:16 Well, I think, Alexis, and I'll tell the story, like, Alexis tweeted, I wish I could invest in Lizzo enterprises. And I tweeted back, invest in the next one on Indify, and somebody showed him the tweet, somehow, I caught him for five minutes at the US Open actually, and told him music investing safe, he said, you're a crazy person. Investing in music can't be safe, I tried it. And he, actually, you know, put his money where his mouth is, and he backed an artist. But I think with that was the spirit of somebody who wanted to help that artist and grow, with that was the spirit of somebody who wanted to spend time with Leah, who was a founder and help her develop both as an artist and as a businesswoman, an independent businesswoman who's building an incredible seven-figure per year revenue business. And so I think that that development, and I think more so with him, the ability to empower her as an entrepreneur. And that story, getting out there, I think, was what made for something really exciting with Leah. But I think what's really interesting is now bigger artists actually coming into the fold. We actually a huge artist, I'm not at liberty to say yet, in Q1, backed an artist, one of my favorite artists of all time, and this I think is going to happen more and more. What happens if LeBron starts backing artists on Indify, right? What happens if, you know, actors and actresses? What happens if Lisa, right, starts backing artists on Indify? I mean, these are artists that can bring real taste, culture, and audiences to those next generation of emerging artists. And I think when you're posed with signing your rights away to a major label or partnering with someone like that, I think it's a really exciting proposition for the future. Dan Runcie 11:48 Yeah, this reminds me of an idea that I think it was Jack Butcher, if someone like that had mentioned on a podcast about looking at someone like a Canelo Alvarez or even Deontay Wilder, you have these prizefighters, boxers, and if they invest in artists, that artist is the one that walks out with them when they're doing their walk-up music, that is a huge platform, so able to introduce someone like that. I think that is so powerful. prettyboyshav 12:14 I saw that clip and shout out Jack Butcher and Visualize Value, and everything he's doing. He has an amazing podcast too, he's a friend. And I think that's such an amazing concept, right? Like, I think as a society, we're yearning for cross-cultural moments, you know what I mean? You see it so much with even the Paul's fighting in boxing. And you know, Paul-Mayweather, what a crazy event that was, or Conor McGregor-Mayweather and I think, more and more, I think you're gonna see culture crossover, right. And I like that fun there. But like, you know, music is in our DNA. And people talk about sometimes they asked me, like, you know, what's the market in music? What's the market of streaming? What's the opportunity? And I'm like, well, there's 7 billion of us in the world. We all like music, right? So I think everybody is on the table to be a part of the story. And I think that's why it's so powerful. I think we've wanted solutions for music for such a long time. But I think for us, you know, it's been these strategic partners, and pairing them with, you know, and our ability to identify artists, I think is the best out there in all honesty, pairing them with artists with traction, that's when one plus one equals 100. I mean, in the last year or so we've helped artists reach over a billion streams independently. And this is rea on the ground effort, and real on the ground connections, that is making a difference in these lives, not in terms of just a one-time cash-out. But many of these artists are now making six, and some seven figures per year over, you know, what could be the rest of their careers. And that's the beauty of when you do break through on streaming, what it can do for you can create sustainability as an artist, I think it's something that we're very proud of, in our cohort of artists helping them get to. Dan Runcie 13:48 So let's talk a little bit more about the benefits and what artists do you get. Because I think a lot of people, they hear options like Indify, they're thinking about it as an alternative to maybe going with their traditional record label and doing that type of deal. And on the surface. Of course, if an artist is working with Indify, I believe the terms is up to 50% and rotating ownership for their masters is what they offer. I know there are some record label deals that do offer that. But if you could talk a little bit more about the distinction there. And if there are certain things that you think that you offer as a replacement, and then are there certain things where you still think that an artist would need to still find elsewhere, they should find elsewhere, and may be a bit of the itemization of where Indify's value add is relative to what the artists would get on a record label. prettyboyshav 14:38 Well, I think talking more just technically to start, if you look at the traditional record industry contract and what standard and this is for people out there who don't know, generally they're like, aghast when I explain this, but a typical record deal is, this is the deal that a lot of these greats have signed A typically a record deal Is 85%-15% in favor of the major label, a five-album deal. And over the course of a lifetime of copyright plus like seven years. It's like the traditional kind of deal. So that means an entire artist’s career, that they're sort of signing away at 17, 16, 20 years old, but are involved in for the next 10 to 15 years of their career. And I think that time period also matters. Also, for the capital advance, you get, right, like you see these artists get all these nice things upfront, I think that upfront cost is massive. It's massive, because you're not only, in a typical loan, you pay, you know, your 100% of your rights would pay back that loan, right? In this case, your 15% has to pay back that initial advance, let's say it's 100k, 200k, 500k, meaning you're in the whole millions, right of dollars, before you see 15 cents on the dollar. And that's after there is and these are some of the things that I find the most predatory, a 25% distribution fee, which costs $20 on this circuit, or, you know, accounting that is just less than clean and clear, I'll say. And so I think on the converse side, I think a lot of these infrastructural issues are initially what we're trying to fix, you know, beyond just I think the terms, but if we put it plain and simple on terms, I mean, a lot of artists on our platforms start with raising for one song, right? With a partner that they talked to, and they might have interest from a ton of partners, messages from the ton of partners on the platform, speak with them. And if they liked that partner, generally these deals are for one song, only three to five years. And after the initial investment is paid back, I think we see a lot of 70-30 kind of splits in favor of the artists. So it's quite literally flipping the economics and making the commitment significantly less. And I think honestly, one of the other things that I've heard, you know, people talk about one of the greatest forms of control is slowness. I think, you know, these contracts, they take sometimes six weeks to six months to a year to fully kind of work through. On Indify we're seeing, you know, you can raise one song, try a partner, try another partner for another song, if you liked them, do an EP. And you can do that investment. You know, using this platform. Again, all of the actual legal terms are in our outsourced to our like TOS and our super artist-friendly, we have our sort of indie note that like backs that, but you're then just deciding for simple terms, once those are decided it can take 45 minutes to raise, and you can capitalize on that moment that's happening on TikTok, or on Instagram immediately with some of the best marketers and managers in the business that are doing a lot of, a lot of the heavy lifting behind the scenes, and are a lot of times the people who the label pay at a premium. And so I think that's for us why we feel Indify is really a better option. Because, you know, rather than diving in and getting married to a partner at the youngest possible age, you're in fact, just, you know, going on dates, I guess, with different partners and seeing, alright, who's the best fit for me, who's somebody that connect with? Who's the right value add investor for my project? Dan Runcie 18:01 I do think that last example, makes a ton of sense of that, essentially, because so much of it, especially with these five-album deals, you are signing away so much early on when, if you think about yourself as an asset, you've been de-risked, hopefully much earlier in the process if you end up being successful, but there's no opportunity to necessarily realize that until a bit later on in the process, and I know one thing that I do hear from people and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it is that with some of these alternative financing options, the terms are great, everything is effective from that perspective. However, people still have this question about, okay, well, what is the max that we could see an artist succeed? Can we see someone be this superstar that's performing at the Super Bowl or reaching these Billy Eilish or Olivia Rodrigo or Ariana Grande level of artists if they're not with one of the major record labels? You could still earn a living off of those, but can an artist reach that path? So it'd be great to hear your thoughts on that, and especially how you think that relates with Indify.  prettyboyshav 19:07 I'd really love that question. It's something that I think about a lot. It's something that I'm excited to experiment with myself. I think eventually, you know, something that I'm interested in is documenting, transcribing, and publishing my process of going through Indify with an artist with 10 million streams. I'm not quite, I think fairly qualified. So I'm actually posting my TikToks trying to get there. But I think as an artist, you get excited about seeing what, and as obviously as a founder, what the brink of this platform is. We've seen for transparency's sake a $400,000 deal happened on Indify. We've also seen deals for 10 to 50k, right, where the investor, you know, pre-release, invest in the song. Week one with some initial pre-release traction, and then I can talk about the Seaside demo example. That song was invested in on Sunday, it came out on Monday. By Wednesday, it was doing well, Nick Mueller and Golden Kids Group, he flagged it to Spotify. And he made sure the digital marketing was being spent wisely. So that week two, it's now doing 100,000 streams per day 200,000 streams per day, week three, week four, he's calling TikTok, calling Snapchat, calling Apple, calling all the right partners such that it reaches pop rising by week two, or three, and by week five, and hit Today's Top hits as an independent song. And this happened within the course of a month. I mean, you know, songs like that, without going into too much detail. When you do have that viral capacity, you could see a 30 or 50x, on your 10k investment. And we're seeing investors experienced that, you're seeing these artists, again, earn six to seven figures, from creating moments like that. And beyond that, you know, just working with these partners, when it doesn't happen at that level, you're seeing, I think 80 or 90% of these deals on the platform are profitable. So quite literally, you have what is a low ceiling, or a low risk, high ceiling asset class, which I think is incredibly unique, especially because we're de-risking those things by only allowing the artists to come on and see strategic partners and only allowing the partners to come on and see artists with traction and be able to invest in them right on the platform and then be able to earn out directly through kind of this whole ecosystem and technology that we've built. And I think what we've seen in the last year, even the last quarter Jx.Zero, I think he reached 700 or 800,000 streams a day. Leah is now doing a million streams per day. Pink Sweat$, who was the first artist to raise way back when this was even off platform. Leah was the first one on platform with Alexis. Off platform, Pink did a funding partnership, a funding deal to start his career. I mean, he's had a platinum record. He's in the top 500 of the world, and he's at Coachella. And that's the only artists that's had a few years to develop. I think the next superstars are already happening on Indify, I think that's a given. I just think that just like startups, these are going to take time. But if you look at the last year, and even if you look at the last quarter, I think we had three or four songs hit the global viral chart last quarter, and these artists are on their way to be great. And I think just to add one more thing, if you look at Kanye West's top songs on Spotify, his jeen-yuhs just came out, College Dropout was spotlighted in that, like crazy. I mean, what an amazing doc. But if you look at his Spotify, his number one song is Praise God, right? If his number one, why is his number one some Praise God? I mean, Moon. I love that song. Arguably a better song in my view, praise God is a great song. Off of Donda, there's a million tracks that are doing well but that's the only song off Donda that's number one. No, the jeen-yuhs doc didn't move anything to number one in terms of The College Dropout and the songs that were spotlighted. So why is it that Praise God is the number one song on Kanye's catalog. Kanye West are the biggest artists the world, because on TikTok it reached 1.5 million videos. The investors on Indify are the best at marketing on TikTok and social media. And it's my belief that not only should the next generation of emerging artists raise funding on Indify, but it's my belief that the current generation of superstars will start to in the next few years. Dan Runcie 22:58 It's a compelling pitch. And I think normally at this stage, you of course, are able to incentivize artists with the amount that they could earn by essentially starting around and using their songs as around or using an album is around, right? Is there any upfront pitch or financing though that would happen? So let's say there is a major artist that's like, Oh, hey, I see what you all are doing, I'm down. But if you could give me some upfront money, not necessarily an advance or some type of upfront money, what would that look like? Is that something that you've all explored? Or has that come up at all? prettyboyshav 23:35 You know, it's so funny. One, bigger artists are approaching us. I think that's actually, to my surprise, I didn't think we'd be at that stage yet. It's a dream. It really is a dream, what we get to do every day, a chance to serve some of these artists gives me chills, because these are artists that are heroes. And to know that we built the infrastructure better than the old. In fact, the pitch is much easier to them than the new artist because they've been through the system. They know what it looks like from the inside. Generally... Dan Runcie 24:01 So you don’t have to say the artist but could you give us like a tier, like what level is one of the ones that have reached out? prettyboyshav 24:07 I would say an important megastar. I won't say like, I think that's the right, I'll give that to you. That's what I'll give. Dan Runcie 24:14 Okay, okay. Someone that would have headlined Coachella?  prettyboyshav 24:18 Yes, absolutely. Dan Runcie 24:19 Okay. Okay.  prettyboyshav 24:20 I think you'll see artists that would headline Coachella, and that people would be most excited about on the bill, especially in Brooklyn, where I'm at, where there is a care for culture and art, and these things that we've been excited about. I think those are the artists who were excited to serve, man. You know, like it'd be a dream to work with and help Frank Ocean raise for his next project. I mean, he's the guy that started this model years ago, and I think these artists deserve credit, not just as artists, but as entrepreneurs. But yeah, to your question on Indify, you'd be shocked. Artists are on there negotiating down the amount of initial sort of capital they'll get, because they only want the right amount, not the most amount, because they don't want to earn on their advance. They want to earn on their equity, they want to earn on the business. And that's to me, the generation of founders as artists or founders that we're looking to empower. And I think I'm excited to help the superstars, you know, earn off of their streams too as they should, because their pies are going to look a lot bigger. Dan Runcie 25:17 Yeah, I think the interesting test I've always looked at was when Taylor Swift had finished her record label deal that she was on the open market/ She was exploring options, and everyone wondered, what is she going to do. She obviously wants to own her masters moving forward. And she ended up doing a licensing deal with Republic Records, which she has been now and she's released, I believe, three albums now, under that deal. I think that, what you're saying is that if we could get to the point where now the market is at a different place than it was in 2018, with options like yours, that now have the option or opportunity for a megastar, who is out of their deal. They've been de-risked they already are a star, what could it look like for them to be like, okay, now that I'm done with this deal, now, I want to go to Indify? prettyboyshav 26:10 Yeah, I think you're gonna see a lot of that happening. I'm very confident in that. And I think those are conversations that are happening faster than we expected, I think what, you know, going back to the Taylor Swift moment, and you actually did an amazing breakdown of what was going on with her. And just for anyone who's listening, like, I know, you're already on Trapital, because you're listening to the podcast. But I do believe, Dan, what you're doing is some of the most accurate breakdowns in the market. I mean that. It's a joy to listen to these podcasts. It's a dream to be on here. And it's so cool to read your newsletter, you know, every time it comes out. I think, going back to the Taylor one, because I remember you breaking it down. And obviously, we're nerds about this stuff. So we should talk about it. But you know, on Indify, there's three main principles that guard the technology on the platform. One, artists own the rights forever. You know, artist kids deserve to have their music, we think that's the fundamental, maybe even a human right, not just a right that we believe they should have. And that's something that, you know, an ownership deal will never happen and in the fight, and I would hold Web 3.0 platforms to that same standard, because I think a lot of them are doing ownership deals. And I think that's going backwards. I think a lot of the music industry is moving forward from that. So it's something that I believe just very strongly as an artist, we need to move forward from. Two, artists deals are always 50% or better after the initial investment is returned on Indify. The platform is like locked in, like error out if you start to put in terms that break that. And third, artists always keep creative control. And that's the way these docs are formatted. I mean, for an artists like Taylor Swift, who's brought a lot more value to these companies, and, you know, arguably bigger than some of these institutions ourselves. She deserves to be the CEO of her own life and our own art. And she deserves to make every decision the way she wants to, she deserves to pass that on to her kids. The fact that artists like that can't do that, and then what she has to now go through to make that music, you know, listen to equitably out there is insane, it's out of control, and it shouldn't exist. And I think, you know, we need tools that we need new solutions, to rewrite how this is going to work for the next generation of Taylor Swifts. I think, Indify, you know, I hope that we can have a conversation with her about doing stuff with her future projects to make sure that, again, she can build her business equitably, own her business, but still get those strategic partners and marketers needed to take the next level. Dan Runcie 28:30 You mentioned Web 3.0 earlier, and some of the solutions there and what you hope those solutions will offer to artists. And I think a lot of people have talked and thought about the Web 3.0 opportunities in music and positioned it as a use case to do or in many ways, what Indify is doing and you are proving with your platform that this can happen. It is happening off-chain, and it doesn't necessarily need to be done through 3.0 or through NFTs or things like that. Some of these things you may be exploring in the future. But where do you stand right now in that aspect, because I do feel like a lot of the other companies that are positioning themselves to try to solve a similar problem have positioned themselves as the Web 3.0 solution for this. But you've been a bit more focused on saying, hey, this can exist, it doesn't necessarily need to happen that way.  prettyboyshav 29:27 I mean, look, I think you really broke it down best, as you do in the A16Z piece you wrote, the music tech community is going to need to, at large, both Web 2.0, and Web 3.0, and Web 2.5, and everything in between is going to need to tackle different problems for artists for us to build an ecosystem that's competitive with these goliaths of the old, you know, and I think us working together and us holding each other accountable having these conversations and I love how I think Web 3.0 has pushed Indify to be more open and more inclusive. I have a lot of friends in the community who've, you know, shown me incredible values and the incredible depths of what this movement is about. And I truly, truly deeply believe in it, and feel it, and empathize with the work that's being done. Because I believe in these values, which is really comes down to community, right, and community ownership, community governance, I think these things are very powerful concepts. And I think these are very powerful ways for an artist to run their business. I, you know, I have so much love for what sound and what catalog and what some of these companies are doing. I think there are amazing founders behind those companies. I think they're building amazing tools for artists to earn different and new revenue streams on their music. And I think all of us need to really come together and work together to build this infrastructure for new artists. I think one of the things that I'm yearning for, one of the things I haven't yet I think fully see in the space that I'm excited about, is something that maybe more reflects an artist DAO of sorts. And again, I'm still in the first inning of this, all of this understanding all of this as most people are, but something I'm going to experiment with. Again, like the way I've always operated with prettyboyshav and you know, the artist career and being the founder of Indify as co founder with Connor and Matt who I've built this with, you know, my best friend since day one is, like, I experiment and we experiment, me, Connor and Matt experiment and kind of create these different like processes with the prettyboyshav. We hack at my Spotify For Artists, we do all this crazy stuff, to learn, right, and to experiment and to figure things out. And then a lot of that, a lot of that failure becomes what is knowledge and R&D into I think the Indify roadmap. I think that's an amazing way to stay grounded and stay into focus. For me, one of the things I'm going to do is and I published my goals at the beginning of this year, I not only want to raise on Indify and published and transcribe that, that for the public to see. But I also want to, as an artist, do some Web 3.0 experiments. And I'm basically launching this physical and digital trading card experience that is going to be like my mecca for my pretty community. And so it's going to come, you know, if you get it, you can basically like, see a roadmap for the prettyboyshav art, you can come get your nails painted with me, you can listen to some exclusive music. And I think those community events, that superfan access, I think is something I'm really excited to just play with on the Web 3.0 side and to see happen in the space. Dan Runcie 32:21 It's great to hear, because I think you can see both sides of this, you understand what needs to be done and not just using yourself as not even more, not even a use case. But essentially you understand what needs to be built, what you would want for yourself as an artist and how you navigate all of that, as well. And while we have the time, we'd love to chat a little bit more about you and what you've been doing with your artists career on that front. First off, how you manage the time between the two, because I'm sure it's both hats to wear. And I'm sure it's a lot from that perspective, but how have you navigated doing both of those things? And I know that you've also said in past interviews, you want to be known more for music moving forward. So how does that continue to or how does that evolution continue to progress based on where you see things going? prettyboyshav 33:11 Yeah, well, I think, I appreciate it, that question. You know, me, myself, Connor and Matt, we've always understood that there's this fluidity, I think, between myself being an artist and being a part of the company. And in fact, I think we've all come to realize it's a huge advantage. When I talk to artists, I relate to them, I can understand their problems when we make decisions, you know, in the room. And I think I consider Connor and Matt artists and themselves. I think Matt, what he does on a technical level and building this tool, I've always fallen in love with the art of tech. And building product is very much like making music. It's a new creative entity that didn't exist before that you created the outside world. I think it's very similar. And I think Connor himself is a writer and an incredible artist. And if you don't have art and tech, then what do you have? You know, so I think we've all come to understand that, that the prettyboyshav journey is our guinea pig. And it's a part of our story. And it's cool. It's really cool. I think more than anything, the company is us three, and to have their support in that I think is first and foremost. And to have investors supporting them too, I think is first and foremost, I think people understand that it only really makes me better as a founder. And they're one and the same. You know, being an artist and having more artists lead music companies is kind of, I hope, the wave of the future. I think on a personal level. You know, I'm really proud of the music I've put out there. I think it's some of the best music out there, whether I'm a co-founder of that company or not. And I have a new album coming up that I think is just a huge step of growth and I think addresses a lot of my own values of growing up as an Indian American understanding my own perspective, telling my own story. And it's a story that when I was 15 the two things that my sort of Northstar were, were, man, I wish I could be an artist without having to be Drake and just being you know a sustainable artist because this is what I love to do. Why is it that somebody can be an accountant but I can't be a musician, right? And why can't those existences coexist? And I think for me, I think just seeing more people like me making pop music, more people like me, getting our nails painted, wearing earrings, wearing cool clothes, and breaking kind of the boxes that that we were put into. So, for me, I think all of this stuff comes from a deep sense of mission and a deep sense of serving our 15-year-old self. It's something that Virgil talked about a lot. And I think that's ultimately, you know, what I'm in service to when it comes to both Indify and the artists journey, but it's cool to see them coming together more and more, I had my first interaction where, I was actually with Peter Boyce and John Exley and we were in LA celebrating Peter installation actually just invested in the company. And it just turned Peter's birthday, and we were sitting having a great time. And somebody came up to the randomly and was like, Are you prettyboyshav? And you know, as a kid, you always, see, I was more excited than her. But as a kid, you always wonder, as an artist that'll ever happen. I think that moment is one that you know, we all got to share together, John and Peter, we wouldn't be here without them. They've been supporting for six, seven years. So to have that with them, you know, and be on this journey together, I think is super cool. Dan Runcie 36:05 That's powerful. And those stories are always great when you hear them because you know your, it definitely won't be the last time. prettyboyshav 36:11 Yeah, yeah. Let's see. Got more work to do then. Dan Runcie 36:15 Well, Shav, this is great. Thanks so much for coming on and sharing both your journey as an artist and your journey as a founder, as we both say artists are founders and you're a great embodiment of that statement. But before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug? or love for the Trapital audience to know about? prettyboyshav 36:32 Yeah, I would just say you know, follow Indify on Instagram and Twitter. I think it's a good follow. And, you know, we've done a lot of work behind the scenes in the last year and a half. I think we've got to do a better job of telling our story in front of the scenes and there's gonna be a lot of content coming in the next year and storytelling coming out of these artists and these incredible stories, you're going to find amazing music, so you know, give us a follow, follow the journey. Come along. Dan Runcie 36:57 Good stuff. Good stuff. Thanks, man.  prettyboyshav 37:00 Cool. Thanks so much, Dan. Dan Runcie 37:02 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. The traditional record label model isn’t artist-friendly. That’s not a secret to anyone by now. Deals are notoriously long and feature a revenue split heavily tilted toward the label — not the artist. But an ambitious alternative has arisen in the last few years. Meet indify, a start-up co-founded by musician prettyboyshav and his two childhood best friends, Matthew Pavia and Connor Lawrence.


indify is a platform that connects investors with up-and-coming artists. Investors can not only financially back artists, but also mentor them in matters like legal or marketing. But unlike a record deal, investments can be as short as a song-per-song basis. As prettyboyshav told me, it’s like “going on dates instead of marrying.” 


As an artist himself with millions of streams to his name, Prettyboyshav is specially equipped to carry out indify’s vision — to create a more equitable, prosperous music industry. indify was originally a music discovery tool when it launched in 2015. Using an algorithm, it identified emerging artists on the cusp of “blowing up” like Khalid, who the tool flagged way back in 2015. That technology still underpins its new business pivot as the “AngeList for the music industry.” 


To get a glimpse into indify’s innovative technology and mission, listen to my full interview with prettyboyshav. We covered a lot of topics, including the ones below:

 

[3:39] indify’s Mission In The Music Industry 

[5:28] Why Artists Are Taken Advantage Of So Often

[7:03] What Does indify Look For In Investors Wanting To Join The Platform? 

[10:16] The Potential For Culture-Setters To Financially Back An Emerging Artist

[14:38] indify Vs. Record Labels 

[19:07] Is There A Glass Ceiling On Artists Who Don’t Sign With A Record Label? 

[23:35] Does indify Do Upfront Money Deals? 

[26:10] Principles That Guard indify’s Technology

[29:27] indify Having Web 3.0 Values Despite Being Off-Chain 

[33:11] How prettyboyshav Juggles His Music Career And Being Start-Up Founder



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: prettyboyshav, @prettyboyshav

 

Enjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapital

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.


TRANSCRIPTION


prettyboyshav 00:00

I truly, truly, deeply believe in it and feel it and empathize with the work that's being done because I believe in these values, which really comes down to community, right? And community ownership, community governance, I think these things are very powerful concepts. And I think these are very powerful ways for an artist to run their business.


Dan Runcie 00:26

Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's guest is prettyboyshav. He's the co-founder and CEO of Indify, a platform that is helping people invest in the future of music. Indify connects merchant artists with the funding they need to build the biggest careers. On Indify, it brings together artists who want to grow and control their career on their terms. It also brings together investors who want to support and back these artists and have the know how to help bring them to the next level. It also brings together business partners who can help artists with marketing, legal, accounting, and many of the other things involved to help run the business. One of the things that Shav and I have always talked about and we agree on is that artists are founders. If you follow me anywhere, you've seen me talk about this, you see me reiterate this. And I think Shav himself is a great example of this. He very much approaches Indify this way, and he's also a recording artist himself, prettyboyshav has over 10 million streams. And we talked a lot about what it's been like for him, navigating both the CEO role and his role as an artist. But we also talk about what Indify has been up to and some of their progress they've ha. The company has had over a million dollars generated this past quarter and 2022 for the artists on its platform and over a billion streams for those artists collectively as well. We talk about the influence that some of the partners they've had as well, such as Alexis Ohanian, who was an early investor in Indify, some of the artists that he's been able to back, and ultimately what they're trying to build towards. We talked about how Indify is positioned relative to other alternative financing options in the music industry. We also talked about how it's positioned relative to record labels. And can an artist on one of these alternative financing platforms achieve the same success as the superstars that are on the major record labels? The folks that headline major music festivals, perform at the Super Bowl and things like that? This is a great conversation. And if you're interested in where the music industry is going, some other options, you'll love this one. Here's my chat with prettyboyshav. All right, we got the one and only prettyboyshav here with us today. He is the co-founder CEO of Indify, platform and a company that is helping artists embrace their independence. He is also an artist himself with over 10 million streams. Shav, welcome to the pod.


prettyboyshav 03:15

What's up, Dan? Good to be here, man. I've been wanting to come on here for a while.


Dan Runcie 03:19

Yeah. And I mean, you know that I've been following everything that you've all been doing. And it's been very interesting to see how you've navigated the industry and how you leverage the technology built to continue to do good things. So for those that are less familiar, what is Indify and what is it that you all are trying to help solve in the music industry?


prettyboyshav 03:39

Well, Indify is a marketplace that's helping artists raise funding on equitable terms from strategic partners. You could think of it as almost like AngelList for music. I think our premise is that the major labels and a lot of the old system and the traditional system, the music industry, kind of represent what you know, private equity did years ago on the venture side. And I think fortunately, we have things like YC and AngelList. Actually, one of these tweets is the Kanye tweet from around fall 2020, where he kind of talked about a lot of things that we've been talking about, but we think it's time that a lot of those standardized, founder-friendly, and digitize terms come to help artists who we believe are also founders raise funding equitably. Yeah. So it's been exciting. I think this is an evolution from our earlier platform, which was really just a discovery tool for the music industry and became an industry-standard tool across a ton of record labels and ended up identifying a ton of artists, early one that we're very known for is Khalid.


Dan Runcie 04:34

Nice, and I got to mention, because you mentioned the Kanye tweets behind you. Is one of those the one that's talked about the Y Combinator for the music industry?


prettyboyshav 04:43

Yes, that's exactly what it is, you know, “When I spoke to Katie Jacobs who's on the board of the Vivendi. We decided to create a YC for the music industry so artists have the power and transparency to be in control of our future. No more shady contracts, no more lifelong deals.” And this one is Alexis tweeting Blonde, because I showed Alexis Ohanian, who's our investor. I was like, man, you got to get deeper into Blonde and Frank Ocean because this thing is amazing.


Dan Runcie 05:05

Yeah, it's an amazing album. And I think, thinking more broadly about what you all are building, I think that venture for music is the pitch I've heard from you. I've heard references well with where you're seeing with this, but I feel like you're taking a bit of a more unique take on it than maybe just the YC model. So what does that look like? What do you see things playing out for you?


prettyboyshav 05:28

Well, I think what YC did, right, in building the safe and standardized docs, and more documentation and transparency has allowed founders to see, okay, what is par for the course? What are founder-friendly terms? You know, if you don't use a safe note, for a raise, or standardized docs, you're kind of, you know, totally left field, a ton of artists, I would say, you know, just anecdotally, like, one out of three artists we meet, a very high percentage have actually signed some sort of predatory, shady contract before they even get off the ground. And the lack of standardization at that early stage if you compare it to Venture Seed, Series A, Pre-seed, has made it so a lot of artists get taken advantage of at inception. And I think that's something that's very core to Indify to prevent that from happening to build the tools and education system so that artists can have an ecosystem or have kind of technology, such that they're protected.


Dan Runcie 06:20

And I think a lot of that you mentioned the partners they work with and the people they meet, because that, of course, is how people ended up in either good contracts or bad contracts. That's a lot of what's there right? And I think you've spoken before about this distinction between smart money versus dumb money, which I know has also been very common in investing and in tech as well. And I think the same can be said in music. And I know that you all do your job on both sides, both the artist side and the investor side to determine who can be entered into the program. So yeah, let's start with the investor side. What are the things that you look for when someone wants to join your platform because they want to invest in an artist?


prettyboyshav 07:03

Yeah, I think, you know, building on kind of some of the points you were making earlier to Dan, like, what is protection for artists? What is being artists first? This is something that at Indify we studied for six years, and these are nuanced questions, and I've studied it myself as an artist, right? You know, there's a ton of funding solutions that are out there, some fan investing, some loan investing, but you know, if it is a finance bro buying your song, or if it is, you know, a loan against your own streams, a lot of the times this can put the artists in a worse position than if they were to take no money at all, because now they're in the hole, X amount of dollars. And if all those dollars are not spent, wisely are spent in a way that they're amplifying, ultimately, your platform as an artist or your income as an artist. Now, you're not increasing your income, and you're in the hole 10, 20, 50k. And that's something that I think, you know, is important to make a distinction about because artists are founders. And we're not necessarily seeing founders prioritize capital, but prioritize the best partners when they're raising funds for their companies. I think the same is true for the smart business owners that are artists. And I think they should be respected as such, many of them are making six, seven figures a year that work with Indify. And part of the reason that that is, is they're not only I think, CEOs in their own right, and building their business on platforms like TikTok, Instagram, social media, shipping every day, right? Like we talked about shipping with founders, these artists are shipping every day. They're putting their stories out there, they're connecting with people. But they're also very, very smart to find business partners that know how to digital market their music, that know how to manage their operations, and they're hiring these partners and partnering with investors. And so what we look for, you know, there's generally two kinds of cohorts, I would say, one is spark music professionals that have had experienced breaking artists before. And we have certain kinds of thresholds for that, one of the thresholds we talked about is, has this partner work with an artist that has reached over 30,000 streams a day or not, even previous time? Or also, you know, influencers themselves. I think that's something that we're really excited about. It's a bit more on the early stage. But, for example, Alexis Ohanian invested in the artist Leah Kate, I think around, you know, when he least identified her on the platform, and he, that was all him. He went on the platform and he found her. She was even lower on the rank. She was at around 3000 streams per day. He's helped her grow using his platform and his base to now over a million streams a day. And we think that's an incredible example of a partnership. And we think those combinations together, a syndicate of sorts of these strategic professionals with strategic influencers that can gift an audience to younger artists, is the new way of music industry.


Dan Runcie 09:51

I'm sure there must be some nuance there, right because of course, someone like Alexis who is a fan, he understands that clearly, he has a lot of influence to be able to make things happen. But I'm sure you may also get interest for people in tech, let's say they were early at a startup, startup exited, they have some extra money. They may know nothing about the music industry, but they just want to get in. How are those conversations?


prettyboyshav 10:16

Well, I think, Alexis, and I'll tell the story, like, Alexis tweeted, I wish I could invest in Lizzo enterprises. And I tweeted back, invest in the next one on Indify, and somebody showed him the tweet, somehow, I caught him for five minutes at the US Open actually, and told him music investing safe, he said, you're a crazy person. Investing in music can't be safe, I tried it. And he, actually, you know, put his money where his mouth is, and he backed an artist. But I think with that was the spirit of somebody who wanted to help that artist and grow, with that was the spirit of somebody who wanted to spend time with Leah, who was a founder and help her develop both as an artist and as a businesswoman, an independent businesswoman who's building an incredible seven-figure per year revenue business. And so I think that that development, and I think more so with him, the ability to empower her as an entrepreneur. And that story, getting out there, I think, was what made for something really exciting with Leah. But I think what's really interesting is now bigger artists actually coming into the fold. We actually a huge artist, I'm not at liberty to say yet, in Q1, backed an artist, one of my favorite artists of all time, and this I think is going to happen more and more. What happens if LeBron starts backing artists on Indify, right? What happens if, you know, actors and actresses? What happens if Lisa, right, starts backing artists on Indify? I mean, these are artists that can bring real taste, culture, and audiences to those next generation of emerging artists. And I think when you're posed with signing your rights away to a major label or partnering with someone like that, I think it's a really exciting proposition for the future.


Dan Runcie 11:48

Yeah, this reminds me of an idea that I think it was Jack Butcher, if someone like that had mentioned on a podcast about looking at someone like a Canelo Alvarez or even Deontay Wilder, you have these prizefighters, boxers, and if they invest in artists, that artist is the one that walks out with them when they're doing their walk-up music, that is a huge platform, so able to introduce someone like that. I think that is so powerful.


prettyboyshav 12:14

I saw that clip and shout out Jack Butcher and Visualize Value, and everything he's doing. He has an amazing podcast too, he's a friend. And I think that's such an amazing concept, right? Like, I think as a society, we're yearning for cross-cultural moments, you know what I mean? You see it so much with even the Paul's fighting in boxing. And you know, Paul-Mayweather, what a crazy event that was, or Conor McGregor-Mayweather and I think, more and more, I think you're gonna see culture crossover, right. And I like that fun there. But like, you know, music is in our DNA. And people talk about sometimes they asked me, like, you know, what's the market in music? What's the market of streaming? What's the opportunity? And I'm like, well, there's 7 billion of us in the world. We all like music, right? So I think everybody is on the table to be a part of the story. And I think that's why it's so powerful. I think we've wanted solutions for music for such a long time. But I think for us, you know, it's been these strategic partners, and pairing them with, you know, and our ability to identify artists, I think is the best out there in all honesty, pairing them with artists with traction, that's when one plus one equals 100. I mean, in the last year or so we've helped artists reach over a billion streams independently. And this is rea on the ground effort, and real on the ground connections, that is making a difference in these lives, not in terms of just a one-time cash-out. But many of these artists are now making six, and some seven figures per year over, you know, what could be the rest of their careers. And that's the beauty of when you do break through on streaming, what it can do for you can create sustainability as an artist, I think it's something that we're very proud of, in our cohort of artists helping them get to.


Dan Runcie 13:48

So let's talk a little bit more about the benefits and what artists do you get. Because I think a lot of people, they hear options like Indify, they're thinking about it as an alternative to maybe going with their traditional record label and doing that type of deal. And on the surface. Of course, if an artist is working with Indify, I believe the terms is up to 50% and rotating ownership for their masters is what they offer. I know there are some record label deals that do offer that. But if you could talk a little bit more about the distinction there. And if there are certain things that you think that you offer as a replacement, and then are there certain things where you still think that an artist would need to still find elsewhere, they should find elsewhere, and may be a bit of the itemization of where Indify's value add is relative to what the artists would get on a record label.


prettyboyshav 14:38

Well, I think talking more just technically to start, if you look at the traditional record industry contract and what standard and this is for people out there who don't know, generally they're like, aghast when I explain this, but a typical record deal is, this is the deal that a lot of these greats have signed A typically a record deal Is 85%-15% in favor of the major label, a five-album deal. And over the course of a lifetime of copyright plus like seven years. It's like the traditional kind of deal. So that means an entire artist’s career, that they're sort of signing away at 17, 16, 20 years old, but are involved in for the next 10 to 15 years of their career. And I think that time period also matters. Also, for the capital advance, you get, right, like you see these artists get all these nice things upfront, I think that upfront cost is massive. It's massive, because you're not only, in a typical loan, you pay, you know, your 100% of your rights would pay back that loan, right? In this case, your 15% has to pay back that initial advance, let's say it's 100k, 200k, 500k, meaning you're in the whole millions, right of dollars, before you see 15 cents on the dollar. And that's after there is and these are some of the things that I find the most predatory, a 25% distribution fee, which costs $20 on this circuit, or, you know, accounting that is just less than clean and clear, I'll say. And so I think on the converse side, I think a lot of these infrastructural issues are initially what we're trying to fix, you know, beyond just I think the terms, but if we put it plain and simple on terms, I mean, a lot of artists on our platforms start with raising for one song, right? With a partner that they talked to, and they might have interest from a ton of partners, messages from the ton of partners on the platform, speak with them. And if they liked that partner, generally these deals are for one song, only three to five years. And after the initial investment is paid back, I think we see a lot of 70-30 kind of splits in favor of the artists. So it's quite literally flipping the economics and making the commitment significantly less. And I think honestly, one of the other things that I've heard, you know, people talk about one of the greatest forms of control is slowness. I think, you know, these contracts, they take sometimes six weeks to six months to a year to fully kind of work through. On Indify we're seeing, you know, you can raise one song, try a partner, try another partner for another song, if you liked them, do an EP. And you can do that investment. You know, using this platform. Again, all of the actual legal terms are in our outsourced to our like TOS and our super artist-friendly, we have our sort of indie note that like backs that, but you're then just deciding for simple terms, once those are decided it can take 45 minutes to raise, and you can capitalize on that moment that's happening on TikTok, or on Instagram immediately with some of the best marketers and managers in the business that are doing a lot of, a lot of the heavy lifting behind the scenes, and are a lot of times the people who the label pay at a premium. And so I think that's for us why we feel Indify is really a better option. Because, you know, rather than diving in and getting married to a partner at the youngest possible age, you're in fact, just, you know, going on dates, I guess, with different partners and seeing, alright, who's the best fit for me, who's somebody that connect with? Who's the right value add investor for my project?


Dan Runcie 18:01

I do think that last example, makes a ton of sense of that, essentially, because so much of it, especially with these five-album deals, you are signing away so much early on when, if you think about yourself as an asset, you've been de-risked, hopefully much earlier in the process if you end up being successful, but there's no opportunity to necessarily realize that until a bit later on in the process, and I know one thing that I do hear from people and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it is that with some of these alternative financing options, the terms are great, everything is effective from that perspective. However, people still have this question about, okay, well, what is the max that we could see an artist succeed? Can we see someone be this superstar that's performing at the Super Bowl or reaching these Billy Eilish or Olivia Rodrigo or Ariana Grande level of artists if they're not with one of the major record labels? You could still earn a living off of those, but can an artist reach that path? So it'd be great to hear your thoughts on that, and especially how you think that relates with Indify. 


prettyboyshav 19:07

I'd really love that question. It's something that I think about a lot. It's something that I'm excited to experiment with myself. I think eventually, you know, something that I'm interested in is documenting, transcribing, and publishing my process of going through Indify with an artist with 10 million streams. I'm not quite, I think fairly qualified. So I'm actually posting my TikToks trying to get there. But I think as an artist, you get excited about seeing what, and as obviously as a founder, what the brink of this platform is. We've seen for transparency's sake a $400,000 deal happened on Indify. We've also seen deals for 10 to 50k, right, where the investor, you know, pre-release, invest in the song. Week one with some initial pre-release traction, and then I can talk about the Seaside demo example. That song was invested in on Sunday, it came out on Monday. By Wednesday, it was doing well, Nick Mueller and Golden Kids Group, he flagged it to Spotify. And he made sure the digital marketing was being spent wisely. So that week two, it's now doing 100,000 streams per day 200,000 streams per day, week three, week four, he's calling TikTok, calling Snapchat, calling Apple, calling all the right partners such that it reaches pop rising by week two, or three, and by week five, and hit Today's Top hits as an independent song. And this happened within the course of a month. I mean, you know, songs like that, without going into too much detail. When you do have that viral capacity, you could see a 30 or 50x, on your 10k investment. And we're seeing investors experienced that, you're seeing these artists, again, earn six to seven figures, from creating moments like that. And beyond that, you know, just working with these partners, when it doesn't happen at that level, you're seeing, I think 80 or 90% of these deals on the platform are profitable. So quite literally, you have what is a low ceiling, or a low risk, high ceiling asset class, which I think is incredibly unique, especially because we're de-risking those things by only allowing the artists to come on and see strategic partners and only allowing the partners to come on and see artists with traction and be able to invest in them right on the platform and then be able to earn out directly through kind of this whole ecosystem and technology that we've built. And I think what we've seen in the last year, even the last quarter Jx.Zero, I think he reached 700 or 800,000 streams a day. Leah is now doing a million streams per day. Pink Sweat$, who was the first artist to raise way back when this was even off platform. Leah was the first one on platform with Alexis. Off platform, Pink did a funding partnership, a funding deal to start his career. I mean, he's had a platinum record. He's in the top 500 of the world, and he's at Coachella. And that's the only artists that's had a few years to develop. I think the next superstars are already happening on Indify, I think that's a given. I just think that just like startups, these are going to take time. But if you look at the last year, and even if you look at the last quarter, I think we had three or four songs hit the global viral chart last quarter, and these artists are on their way to be great. And I think just to add one more thing, if you look at Kanye West's top songs on Spotify, his jeen-yuhs just came out, College Dropout was spotlighted in that, like crazy. I mean, what an amazing doc. But if you look at his Spotify, his number one song is Praise God, right? If his number one, why is his number one some Praise God? I mean, Moon. I love that song. Arguably a better song in my view, praise God is a great song. Off of Donda, there's a million tracks that are doing well but that's the only song off Donda that's number one. No, the jeen-yuhs doc didn't move anything to number one in terms of The College Dropout and the songs that were spotlighted. So why is it that Praise God is the number one song on Kanye's catalog. Kanye West are the biggest artists the world, because on TikTok it reached 1.5 million videos. The investors on Indify are the best at marketing on TikTok and social media. And it's my belief that not only should the next generation of emerging artists raise funding on Indify, but it's my belief that the current generation of superstars will start to in the next few years.


Dan Runcie 22:58

It's a compelling pitch. And I think normally at this stage, you of course, are able to incentivize artists with the amount that they could earn by essentially starting around and using their songs as around or using an album is around, right? Is there any upfront pitch or financing though that would happen? So let's say there is a major artist that's like, Oh, hey, I see what you all are doing, I'm down. But if you could give me some upfront money, not necessarily an advance or some type of upfront money, what would that look like? Is that something that you've all explored? Or has that come up at all?


prettyboyshav 23:35

You know, it's so funny. One, bigger artists are approaching us. I think that's actually, to my surprise, I didn't think we'd be at that stage yet. It's a dream. It really is a dream, what we get to do every day, a chance to serve some of these artists gives me chills, because these are artists that are heroes. And to know that we built the infrastructure better than the old. In fact, the pitch is much easier to them than the new artist because they've been through the system. They know what it looks like from the inside. Generally...

Dan Runcie 24:01

So you don’t have to say the artist but could you give us like a tier, like what level is one of the ones that have reached out?


prettyboyshav 24:07

I would say an important megastar. I won't say like, I think that's the right, I'll give that to you. That's what I'll give.


Dan Runcie 24:14

Okay, okay. Someone that would have headlined Coachella? 


prettyboyshav 24:18

Yes, absolutely.


Dan Runcie 24:19

Okay. Okay. 


prettyboyshav 24:20

I think you'll see artists that would headline Coachella, and that people would be most excited about on the bill, especially in Brooklyn, where I'm at, where there is a care for culture and art, and these things that we've been excited about. I think those are the artists who were excited to serve, man. You know, like it'd be a dream to work with and help Frank Ocean raise for his next project. I mean, he's the guy that started this model years ago, and I think these artists deserve credit, not just as artists, but as entrepreneurs. But yeah, to your question on Indify, you'd be shocked. Artists are on there negotiating down the amount of initial sort of capital they'll get, because they only want the right amount, not the most amount, because they don't want to earn on their advance. They want to earn on their equity, they want to earn on the business. And that's to me, the generation of founders as artists or founders that we're looking to empower. And I think I'm excited to help the superstars, you know, earn off of their streams too as they should, because their pies are going to look a lot bigger.


Dan Runcie 25:17

Yeah, I think the interesting test I've always looked at was when Taylor Swift had finished her record label deal that she was on the open market/ She was exploring options, and everyone wondered, what is she going to do. She obviously wants to own her masters moving forward. And she ended up doing a licensing deal with Republic Records, which she has been now and she's released, I believe, three albums now, under that deal. I think that, what you're saying is that if we could get to the point where now the market is at a different place than it was in 2018, with options like yours, that now have the option or opportunity for a megastar, who is out of their deal. They've been de-risked they already are a star, what could it look like for them to be like, okay, now that I'm done with this deal, now, I want to go to Indify?


prettyboyshav 26:10

Yeah, I think you're gonna see a lot of that happening. I'm very confident in that. And I think those are conversations that are happening faster than we expected, I think what, you know, going back to the Taylor Swift moment, and you actually did an amazing breakdown of what was going on with her. And just for anyone who's listening, like, I know, you're already on Trapital, because you're listening to the podcast. But I do believe, Dan, what you're doing is some of the most accurate breakdowns in the market. I mean that. It's a joy to listen to these podcasts. It's a dream to be on here. And it's so cool to read your newsletter, you know, every time it comes out. I think, going back to the Taylor one, because I remember you breaking it down. And obviously, we're nerds about this stuff. So we should talk about it. But you know, on Indify, there's three main principles that guard the technology on the platform. One, artists own the rights forever. You know, artist kids deserve to have their music, we think that's the fundamental, maybe even a human right, not just a right that we believe they should have. And that's something that, you know, an ownership deal will never happen and in the fight, and I would hold Web 3.0 platforms to that same standard, because I think a lot of them are doing ownership deals. And I think that's going backwards. I think a lot of the music industry is moving forward from that. So it's something that I believe just very strongly as an artist, we need to move forward from. Two, artists deals are always 50% or better after the initial investment is returned on Indify. The platform is like locked in, like error out if you start to put in terms that break that. And third, artists always keep creative control. And that's the way these docs are formatted. I mean, for an artists like Taylor Swift, who's brought a lot more value to these companies, and, you know, arguably bigger than some of these institutions ourselves. She deserves to be the CEO of her own life and our own art. And she deserves to make every decision the way she wants to, she deserves to pass that on to her kids. The fact that artists like that can't do that, and then what she has to now go through to make that music, you know, listen to equitably out there is insane, it's out of control, and it shouldn't exist. And I think, you know, we need tools that we need new solutions, to rewrite how this is going to work for the next generation of Taylor Swifts. I think, Indify, you know, I hope that we can have a conversation with her about doing stuff with her future projects to make sure that, again, she can build her business equitably, own her business, but still get those strategic partners and marketers needed to take the next level.


Dan Runcie 28:30

You mentioned Web 3.0 earlier, and some of the solutions there and what you hope those solutions will offer to artists. And I think a lot of people have talked and thought about the Web 3.0 opportunities in music and positioned it as a use case to do or in many ways, what Indify is doing and you are proving with your platform that this can happen. It is happening off-chain, and it doesn't necessarily need to be done through 3.0 or through NFTs or things like that. Some of these things you may be exploring in the future. But where do you stand right now in that aspect, because I do feel like a lot of the other companies that are positioning themselves to try to solve a similar problem have positioned themselves as the Web 3.0 solution for this. But you've been a bit more focused on saying, hey, this can exist, it doesn't necessarily need to happen that way. 


prettyboyshav 29:27

I mean, look, I think you really broke it down best, as you do in the A16Z piece you wrote, the music tech community is going to need to, at large, both Web 2.0, and Web 3.0, and Web 2.5, and everything in between is going to need to tackle different problems for artists for us to build an ecosystem that's competitive with these goliaths of the old, you know, and I think us working together and us holding each other accountable having these conversations and I love how I think Web 3.0 has pushed Indify to be more open and more inclusive. I have a lot of friends in the community who've, you know, shown me incredible values and the incredible depths of what this movement is about. And I truly, truly deeply believe in it, and feel it, and empathize with the work that's being done. Because I believe in these values, which is really comes down to community, right, and community ownership, community governance, I think these things are very powerful concepts. And I think these are very powerful ways for an artist to run their business. I, you know, I have so much love for what sound and what catalog and what some of these companies are doing. I think there are amazing founders behind those companies. I think they're building amazing tools for artists to earn different and new revenue streams on their music. And I think all of us need to really come together and work together to build this infrastructure for new artists. I think one of the things that I'm yearning for, one of the things I haven't yet I think fully see in the space that I'm excited about, is something that maybe more reflects an artist DAO of sorts. And again, I'm still in the first inning of this, all of this understanding all of this as most people are, but something I'm going to experiment with. Again, like the way I've always operated with prettyboyshav and you know, the artist career and being the founder of Indify as co founder with Connor and Matt who I've built this with, you know, my best friend since day one is, like, I experiment and we experiment, me, Connor and Matt experiment and kind of create these different like processes with the prettyboyshav. We hack at my Spotify For Artists, we do all this crazy stuff, to learn, right, and to experiment and to figure things out. And then a lot of that, a lot of that failure becomes what is knowledge and R&D into I think the Indify roadmap. I think that's an amazing way to stay grounded and stay into focus. For me, one of the things I'm going to do is and I published my goals at the beginning of this year, I not only want to raise on Indify and published and transcribe that, that for the public to see. But I also want to, as an artist, do some Web 3.0 experiments. And I'm basically launching this physical and digital trading card experience that is going to be like my mecca for my pretty community. And so it's going to come, you know, if you get it, you can basically like, see a roadmap for the prettyboyshav art, you can come get your nails painted with me, you can listen to some exclusive music. And I think those community events, that superfan access, I think is something I'm really excited to just play with on the Web 3.0 side and to see happen in the space.


Dan Runcie 32:21

It's great to hear, because I think you can see both sides of this, you understand what needs to be done and not just using yourself as not even more, not even a use case. But essentially you understand what needs to be built, what you would want for yourself as an artist and how you navigate all of that, as well. And while we have the time, we'd love to chat a little bit more about you and what you've been doing with your artists career on that front. First off, how you manage the time between the two, because I'm sure it's both hats to wear. And I'm sure it's a lot from that perspective, but how have you navigated doing both of those things? And I know that you've also said in past interviews, you want to be known more for music moving forward. So how does that continue to or how does that evolution continue to progress based on where you see things going?


prettyboyshav 33:11

Yeah, well, I think, I appreciate it, that question. You know, me, myself, Connor and Matt, we've always understood that there's this fluidity, I think, between myself being an artist and being a part of the company. And in fact, I think we've all come to realize it's a huge advantage. When I talk to artists, I relate to them, I can understand their problems when we make decisions, you know, in the room. And I think I consider Connor and Matt artists and themselves. I think Matt, what he does on a technical level and building this tool, I've always fallen in love with the art of tech. And building product is very much like making music. It's a new creative entity that didn't exist before that you created the outside world. I think it's very similar. And I think Connor himself is a writer and an incredible artist. And if you don't have art and tech, then what do you have? You know, so I think we've all come to understand that, that the prettyboyshav journey is our guinea pig. And it's a part of our story. And it's cool. It's really cool. I think more than anything, the company is us three, and to have their support in that I think is first and foremost. And to have investors supporting them too, I think is first and foremost, I think people understand that it only really makes me better as a founder. And they're one and the same. You know, being an artist and having more artists lead music companies is kind of, I hope, the wave of the future. I think on a personal level. You know, I'm really proud of the music I've put out there. I think it's some of the best music out there, whether I'm a co-founder of that company or not. And I have a new album coming up that I think is just a huge step of growth and I think addresses a lot of my own values of growing up as an Indian American understanding my own perspective, telling my own story. And it's a story that when I was 15 the two things that my sort of Northstar were, were, man, I wish I could be an artist without having to be Drake and just being you know a sustainable artist because this is what I love to do. Why is it that somebody can be an accountant but I can't be a musician, right? And why can't those existences coexist? And I think for me, I think just seeing more people like me making pop music, more people like me, getting our nails painted, wearing earrings, wearing cool clothes, and breaking kind of the boxes that that we were put into. So, for me, I think all of this stuff comes from a deep sense of mission and a deep sense of serving our 15-year-old self. It's something that Virgil talked about a lot. And I think that's ultimately, you know, what I'm in service to when it comes to both Indify and the artists journey, but it's cool to see them coming together more and more, I had my first interaction where, I was actually with Peter Boyce and John Exley and we were in LA celebrating Peter installation actually just invested in the company. And it just turned Peter's birthday, and we were sitting having a great time. And somebody came up to the randomly and was like, Are you prettyboyshav? And you know, as a kid, you always, see, I was more excited than her. But as a kid, you always wonder, as an artist that'll ever happen. I think that moment is one that you know, we all got to share together, John and Peter, we wouldn't be here without them. They've been supporting for six, seven years. So to have that with them, you know, and be on this journey together, I think is super cool.


Dan Runcie 36:05

That's powerful. And those stories are always great when you hear them because you know your, it definitely won't be the last time.


prettyboyshav 36:11

Yeah, yeah. Let's see. Got more work to do then.


Dan Runcie 36:15

Well, Shav, this is great. Thanks so much for coming on and sharing both your journey as an artist and your journey as a founder, as we both say artists are founders and you're a great embodiment of that statement. But before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug? or love for the Trapital audience to know about?


prettyboyshav 36:32

Yeah, I would just say you know, follow Indify on Instagram and Twitter. I think it's a good follow. And, you know, we've done a lot of work behind the scenes in the last year and a half. I think we've got to do a better job of telling our story in front of the scenes and there's gonna be a lot of content coming in the next year and storytelling coming out of these artists and these incredible stories, you're going to find amazing music, so you know, give us a follow, follow the journey. Come along.


Dan Runcie 36:57

Good stuff. Good stuff. Thanks, man. 


prettyboyshav 37:00

Cool. Thanks so much, Dan.


Dan Runcie 37:02

If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2256 no Young M.A and the $20 NFT https://www.trapital.com/podcast Music NFTs are all the rage as of late. Entering the mix is Young M.A, who dropped a capsule on April 19. But in true Young M.A fashion, she took a different approach to her first-ever NFT project. For one, each NFT is only $20, making it widely accessible to her diehard fanbase. That’s a departure from most artists-focused NFTs that are on the pricier side due to their limitedness. In total, Young M.A dropped five NFT collections with 250 editions in each — for a total of 1,250. Each of the five collections represents key moments in Young M.A’s career. From first going viral with her Brooklyn Chiraq freestyle to the smashing success of “OOOUUU” and other highlights.  Moreover, the capsule is exclusive to new NFT marketplace Serenade. The platform prides itself on being eco-friendly in an industry widely criticized for its energy consumption.  The NFT collection is just one way Young M.A is staying connected to her fans these days. She’s also on tour and has continued to invest in non-music products like her adult toy line. Here’s everything we covered in this episode: [0:00] Seeing where things go [2:45] Purpose Behind Young M.A’s NFT Drop [9:29] Surprising Price Point For Young M.A’s NFT Capsule [10:14] Young M.A Has Hesitations About The Drop (Honest Talk)  [12:32] Prioritizing Long-Term Impact With Business Ventures [12:55] Young M.A’s Relationship With Fame [15:37] How Young M.A Approaches Non-Music Business Ventures [20:10] Partnering With Serenade For The NFT Drop [23:22] Keeping Up With Web 3.0 & Music Industry  [28:00] Young M.A Understands Her Place In The Industry Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Young M.A, @youngma, serenade.co/@youngma   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Transcript ________________ Young M.A  00:00 When it comes to business, you might not always know. You can't always say you know people. Even if you research them, no matter what the situation is, sometimes things might not work for you. You know what I mean? So you just look more to it. And you see how it goes as it goes. I mean, seeing business situations I handled in the past, some things didn't go right. Some things went right, you know, and it's just like with them. I feel good, you know? And it was like, let's go, let's see where it goes. Let's take these events and take risks.  Dan Runcie  00:31 Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  Today's guest is Young M.A. You may know her for her hits like BROOKLYN (Chiraq), OOOUUU, and plenty others that helped her go six times platinum. I knew this was going to be a good interview because, the moment that I logged on to the chat, Young M.A was already in there. And her first words were "took you long enough." And that's what I knew that we're in for a good one. Young M.A came on the Trapital podcast because she just had an NF T drop for her latest single Aye Day Pay Day. And she did it as a series of stories throughout her career. And she launched her NFTs different than most artists do. As I've written and talked about on this podcast, people have looked at NFTs as a way to monetize and make a lot of money from being able to sell high-end products as collectibles. But Young M.A is going about in a different way. She only has 250 drops for each of the five NFTs in this collection. And she's only selling them for $20. That's it. So we talked about the decision, how she's approached this, and why she made the decision that she has. And I think a lot of this ties into her mentality. As an artist, Young M.A is one of the more strong proponents of being an independent artist and what that means. And we talked about how this relates to how she looks at record labels and a lot of the deals that she's turned down. And we also talked about some of      Young M.A's investments too. She's invested in a bunch of different areas. So we talked about that. We also talked about some of the other trends happening in this music industry, how she keeps up with everything, how her team is structured, and a whole lot more. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did.  Here's my chat with Young M.A. All right, today, we're joined by the one and only Young M.A, who has a big drop for us today. She is launching an NFT. And I'm excited and I want to hear more. So break it down. Why was now the time for you to make this drop happen? Young M.A  02:45 I see. You know, I'm the same person. I don't, I don't talk all that extra “Aaah.”  I keep it real. The big one since A1.  You know what I mean? I honestly didn't know too much about it, you know what I mean? I used to see it every now and then. And I didn't understand what it was because I'm the type of person like, like, if it don't make sense to me at the moment of me seeing it, I'm just not going to pay attention. I don't see interest into things that everybody else see interesting, too, you know what I mean? So that was literally the case. But I didn't see it casually and then once my team brought it to my attention, it was like, oh, okay, I know what you're talking about, you know what I mean? Like, I've seen, so I'm guessing this is like the new way of things, new wave of things, or whatever. So focusing my attention, you know, just basically gave me the intellect of it, the background of it, detail and everything like that. Somehow, Okay, okay, no, still not understanding it too much. But you know, kind of intrigued into it. And they kind of like broke it down. So I was like, Yo, give me a little more like pinpoint, because like, I do want to understand this situation, because it'd be something that's going to be longevity, and something's that's gonna help, you know, long term future-wise. And it's like, one of the new way that's coming in, you know, why not, you know, at least, you know, check it out. So we talked more about it, had a meeting, and, and we came up with kind of like I did. So once they broke down the ideas to me of like, what's, like, the meaning of it. And also like, what I would do if I do it. And then it become a more of understanding that was like, Okay, now I can go, you know what I mean? It's not just like, like anything we ever did before. Like, it's not like, it's, like, we did but like more digital, you know what I mean? It's like what we did but digital, in a different sense. So I'm like, okay, I get it now. So once I got that understanding, there's like, I got more intrigued, and I was like, let's go. You know, I'm the type of person, like, I'd take risks. I don't believe in like, No, I gotta, I gotta be the see it to believe it type person, like, I got to see. You know, even if I got to take that risk. I had taken risk all my life, so now I was like, I want to take this risk of, a new risk of taking risk. Let's take this risk. So we got to to it on, whatever the case, got involved with a team or whatever. And we came to a point where it was like, alright, if I'm going to do this, you already know my vibe. Not going to do it on nobody else's terms and circumstances and shit like that. Like, I know how it moves. So me understanding that this is how it goes about, let's go into a route where it's going to make, make sense for me. That's always been my, my way of grinding since I came up. Anything that I've ever done always went in a sense of how I had to do, so on and, you know, still be independent, of course. So we came up with this, all my team came up with this plan of like just creating like a timeline of, like, when I first started. Literally from the ground up, like... I wouldn't say the ground up because literally I started from the ground like, like, probably like 19 years old. For like far as like when social media and stuff like that really came into play as far as music, we wanted to start from there and we started from like my first freestyling, like, went viral, BROOKLYN (Chiraq Freestyle), you know what I mean?  When Facebook was like one of the hottest things ever, at the time, like Instagram was still hot. Cool. Instagram was hot but like, Facebook was one of the places where you want to go viral before you went viral on Instagram. Before... I came from them. I mean, SoundCloud, before there was SoundCloud rappers, I was on SoundCloud, you know what I mean? So like, we really wanted to bring that world into, like, just my supporters and my fan base. So it's really not too much about trying to sell this. It's more so about trying to give back to my supporters. In a way now that I understand that NF T is a way of them making money by just putting one investment into me, after like years of investment you will put into me, this is your way of making money, just like that? Come on, man. You know, I mean, like of course, I'm gonna jump into that. But of course, I still need to know more detail into it or whatever the case. So as time goes on, we come up with the details, we like, let's pinpoint the biggest times on your career. Chiraq Freestyle go viral. Boom. Years later, everybody knows, a lot of being on all these like big radio stations. Hot 97. after that and we went viral. On this... She started doing shows in Connecticut and Tri-state areas. You know what I mean? Like, I'm starting to do these type of things. Now my come up is coming up. Now OOOUUU come out, boom, because they like we need a club record. Boom, come with them. Exactly. I gotcha, you know what I mean? Like boom, OOOUUU, come out. Now that's became the biggest break now. Now, I'm crossing other into the industry. Another, you know, milestone in my career. We go from that, boom. And now we go into Petty Wap. It is a lot. So like, that's basically the timeline. Like there's so much that I did in between each time that could really count. But it's like, when you pinpoint, like, literally, like, the bowstones of everything. So like, that's what the NFT is really about, it was creating and like, like, you know, the longevity and what could create from each individual situation that you might not never know, that might develop as you go, you know what I mean? So that's what I feel like my NFT should be about. I don't know what everybody else is doing and shit about. Like, I heard about the research, I heard about, you know, people's, like, unreleased stuff. Of course, like I do unreleased music, or unreleased merch or unreleased things and shit like that. Of course, you get the exclusive. But to me, like, my NFTs, they have to, like gravitate to something close to me. It made my supporters understand that it's still me. It's not about just, yeah, having new stuff that nobody got. No, it's still connecting with you all. At the end of the day, I look at this. I don't know, I don't look at this for money. Like, I don't know, I don't know where people mine that or whatever. As humans, whatever the case, and they only be... But like me, as a artists. I always had this mindset. I treat my supporters as my family, for, like, this my way of, like, giving back. It's like me getting a platinum plaque. And seeing that I went platinum again. Like just, like it just, like I feel so good about just having that platinum plaque as another accomplishment. There's no one that I'm doing what I'm doing. So like for them to have something valuable, 250 out of millions, billions, and trillions of people in this world. You got that? Like, that's what matters to me. I don't know about that money stuff, bro. Okay, so that's what I'm trying to say. Dan Runcie  08:51 Yeah. Was it tough to limit the amount because it's only 250 people for each of the drops, and you got a lot of... Young M.A  08:52 Exactly.  Dan Runcie  08:54 ...Young M.A fans out there. Was it tough to limit it? Young M.A  08:59 Yeah, that's basically the case. Like, I'm still trying to figure it out. Like once it dropped and I see like how things go about, I just want to see the reaction. Like, I'm not even looking into like, like, I know the money aspects of things. And if you want to talk money, but, like, my benefit from it is more so like seeing what they value from it, you know what I mean? Like... Dan Runcie  09:20 Yeah, let's talk the money piece of it first, just to get that out of the way. So you got 250 of volume. And of course, the goal is to sell out, how much are they? And are they different prices for each of the five different ones?  Young M.A  09:29 No, they're $20.  Dan Runcie  09:31 And see that's important because I think most people that do drops like this, if you only have a limited amount, they think it's going to be thousands of dollars, right? But you're like, so essentially it's like a first come first whoever gets it first, right?  Young M.A  09:42 Yeah, $20, $20. I feel like, you know, like my supporters.  If you could buy merch, I mean my merch is more $20, oh there you go. If my merch is, like, more than $20, or you could buy a ticket to come see me, my whole package, meet and greets, all that, it should be like a bucket of change. If you can spend $20 just have an NFT of me and make money off it, like, I don't know what to say, you know, like, I'm not a...  I just feel like, you know, like, we take risks, we take risks. Dan Runcie  10:08 Do you feel like this was a big risk for you though? Because I feel like it's a slam dunk. I mean, you know that you got the fans that are going to want it.  Young M.A  10:14 Yeah, I mean, I don't look at it like a slam dunk, though. I don't know why. And that's just me being honest. I don't know why, like, I don't know, if it's just not in my heart to like, I don't really look at money value. I don't know. There's just something, I don't know. It's just something in my heart that just never been that person. Like, of course, I'm going to make money. Yes, I had to make money to survive. But my intent into going into things be more deeper than people ever think. Like, I really think deeper into things, like I have to understand. Because if I don't understand something 100%, like, what this NFT, I'm gonna keep it G. I don't know 100% about it. I do know enough. But I don't know 100%. And when I don't know, 100%+, about something. I'm not going to never put my trust into it. 100%. I'm going put my trust into how much I understand. So my trust is how much I understand per say, right? You know what I mean? And I just want to see how my supporters feel and what's gonna make them happy. If it ain't making them happy, I want to do it. And that's real, bro. Dan Runcie  11:13 Oh, yeah. And I think the good thing with it, too, you have other exclusive perks lined up. If someone collects all five of them, then you invite them to certain things, and you know fans are always going to appreciate that. And I feel like this also taps into how you run your game in the industry from since you've been in this, you know, because you were always more about longevity. You were always more about the money. That is how you approach any deal that came through or you weren't trying to approach it with a bag. It wasn't about the bag, it had to be more than that. Young M.A  11:42 Yeah, I had to always be more. I've been sitting in so many record labels... I fell asleep in one, I ain't going to say which label. I'm not going to say which one. But I literally lay my head on the table because they just said everything everybody else said and I don't have none of these labels. I don't. I just felt like it just wasn't, it wasn't in my league. You know what I mean? So I didn't want to tap into, some certain people I didn't want to sign to. I just felt like independent was my best move, because I just understood me. Like it was just more so, like. the industry wasn't about money to me. It wasn't about that. It was more so about understanding me as an artist, and how I express myself, and who I am. You all don't know me. You all don't know. You don't know. So you all can't tell me, which I can do for me. All you have to tell me what it is I can do for y'all that will do for me. But it won't do for me.  Dan Runcie  12:31 Right. Young M.A  12:32 You know what I'm saying? So like, I'd rather move slow-paced than fast-paced. Just to get a quick dollar? No, like, like, I love the position I'm it. Like, I don't like that fast life. I don't even like the fame. I don't. I just love my supporters. I love when I go on stage. I love when I got to handle my business, when I got to handle my business. You know what I mean? And just like, just enjoying life, as long as my family's taken care of. That's all I care about, like all that fast-paced stuff and all that stuff like that. Like, I don't need it. It's fun when it's fun, like I can have those moments. I can go on a boat. I'm going on a yacht. I can drive a fast car. I can drive them... And it's just like, Okay, now like, I'm going to... I go to club, I can go... Dan Runcie  13:11 Let's talk about relationship with fame. Because I feel like that's an interesting point, right? Like you would have the moment after, what is, Chiraq Freestyle or even after OOOUUU when things blew up. Now you're a few years past that. Do you feel like, the way things are right now, you're in a pretty good spot where, you know, I feel like the level of fame I have is in line with where I am comfortable, or do you still feel like no, no, I wish I was less famous than this. Young M.A  13:37 No, actually, I think I'm in a comfortable spot. Because even when sometimes, like now, like I noticed, like, of course, I get bored. You know, sometimes you get bored. You know, that's just normal human being stuff. But you'll get bored. So you want to go out. And then sometimes I'll go out. And they'd be like, like, this is so normal. Like, I just be seeing guys. It's just everybody just acting... Like, man, been there, done that. And it's just like, so, it's just so common. It's like sometimes, like it'd be certain moments that feel good. It's like, this is the time to celebrate, like it's like accomplishment to me now more so than just going out for fun, like random and stuff like that. You know what I mean? Now it was more so like if we go out we have a good time, it's because we just, we just, you know, dropped the check or something. You know what I mean? Are we just invested in something, you know, we just got this or we got that. Like that celebration to me more is now more of a celebration and more fun to me now. All of just like randomly going out stuff to me is like. it's cool, but it's like, it's not as exciting. And I'm going to say that and that's just me being honest. Like, I can say it's me getting older but I can just say it's really me just probably, it's just, something that I always had in me. Like, even when I used to, like go out when the phase first happened, with OOOUUU and all that. It was fun, but I still wasn't like dramatic about it. Like I was never like that, Oh yeah, I'm happy to be in clubs, like, it was just like enjoying the moment I guess. Like, it was like one of the... Cool, cool, but I still wasn't like extra, like, I never got in trouble. I never went, you know what I mean? I never went crazy. You know, I still kept my composure even when having that much success and fame at the very moment. So like, even now that I've been there, done that, it's like, I'd be looking around at people and I'll just be like, damn, I understand. But like, to me, like, it's like, I can leave right now and be okay. You know? And that's where my mind and like, I'm automatically thinking like, damn, so tomorrow, I need to figure out, like, what next business move... And that's really when my mind be like, all day running like that. And that's just really how I be like. Dan Runcie  15:37 Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Yeah, I feel like with you especially, you mentioned the investment piece. What does that piece of your business look like? What are some of the investment opportunities you've looked at? And how do you evaluate them? Young M.A  15:38 Well, I can't tell you too much. So I'm going to shhh on that. But what I am, into I'm not going to tell you what I'm... Dan Runcie  15:55 You're going to give us something public though? Young M.A  15:57 So right now I got the, of course, the NFT and then I got the sex toy line that a lot of people, I mean, they aware of it but like, you know, just to get more aware in, you know, when we have these interviews. I have a sex toy line being that people want to talk about my strap, like I use things to my advantage. That just makes sense. Like, you got to talk about me, you're going to walk about me, you know what I mean? So like, I got the sex toy line that I originally created in collab with Doc Johnson, which is a big sex company located, like, based in LA, or whatever the case and, like, they just known, like, everywhere, like, they're literally like a big ass company. And we had like a meeting, went probably like three years ago. And we locked out with them and I came up with this own, my own sex toy line called Play Nyce, called Play Nyce. N-Y-C, so N-Y-C-E, so that's Play Nyce with a Y. That's why... With a Y. I just placed everything in one and NYC. I always do that. Like, even with my chains like this is Young M.A but it looked like the Loki symbol. You know, I always put anything when it comes to, like, where I'm from, what I'm based on, everything, just as long as it what makes sense. But like, yeah, we came up with that. So like, it's like a whole starter kit of sex toys and like, you know, strap-ons, and stuff like that. And even cleaning your strap-ons or whatever. So when they can't, you know, get pleased by whoever they want to get pleased by, they please they self. And then I also got the vibrators as well, because a lot of women are using vibrators now, and that's also by Play Nyce but it's called Power Play. Because there's a lot of power and it plays with that... And that's just, you know what I'm saying? And you know, I got a lot of, like, lot of positive comments back from that Power Play right there. And a lot of women use vibrators. And it's, like, so many different styles, they've been telling me about. So I've been doing my research and trying to get to it. So like, I just started off with that. So I'm gonna get more in tune with that, because that's literally like, a way for women, and I love women. So that's always going to work for me. So I'm definitely locking in with that, like, continuously. So that's just been in the works on that. So my website is shopyoungma. Everything is on shopyoungma.com. And then I got the PSD collaboration as well with my boxers. So we got like different, like, styles of boxers. like women's booty short-type boxers, and they got the men's boxers. Well, briefs, boxer briefs, like locked and tight. And then they got the women's sports bras. We actually got like all my designs and stuff like that. So we've been locked in with PTSD so make sure you all check that out as well. So it's basically underwear. And also Nyak. Nyak is my liquor brand that I've been associated with. They also had their own company, but they brought me a part of it with my own VSOP bottle. So I get my benefits from my actual own bottle which is all red. This is brown, is a brown label, is called Nyak, N-Y-A-K, you know what I mean? And mine's an all-red bottle, same thing, Nyak. But my actual, like, logo was on the bottle so you know it's mine, it's all red. And so I've been like, you know what I mean, doing little entrepreneur stuff, and then we got more stuff too, but you know, I'm just going keep quiet and not tell you. Dan Runcie  19:02 No, I hear that. Well, I appreciate you sharing those though. And the sex toys and the adult toys in general. I feel like that lines up with some of the stuff you've done before. I know you've directed adult films before so I feel like you've been in this space. Young M.A  19:16 Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And that's why it was perfect to actually release that because it wasn't coming from left field, you know what I mean, when that first came out. It was like a lot of people was like oh... Like, Young M.A on porn? So that literally became like a token discussion or whatever, so then it was like perfect timing because it's like, so now you're all talking about this, I see you're always talking about my strap, I was like, let's bridge the gap. There you go. So now I'm making money from you all. Hello. From not even from just y'all, from the people that... You know what I mean, like girl, or a man, I don't even care. It don't matter. Dan Runcie  19:51 Yeah, so I feel like that lines up, too, and even back to the first piece. I know you've got the partnership here with Serenade for the NFT drop itself and... what does that relationship like? And I guess, first, what was it that made you want to partner with them on this? And then what does the relationship look like with them moving forward? Young M.A  20:10 I ain't going to lie... I believe they didn't know too much about, you know what I mean? Like, I just know, once, you know, I really got the confirmation that they was, you know, more so equal, friendly, equal, friendly more than anything, and that's a big plus, in itself. Why do we want to establish more of a relationship with them? You know what I mean, after this NFT drop, and that's what kind of what we've been planning. You know what I mean? Like, I'm more so like an observant person, like, once I meet you, I understand. He was like, okay, cool. So once I met them, and it's like, okay, you know what I mean, we can move forward. If things don't go right then things don't go, right. That's just in the business. And so you know, what I mean, I'm not giving nobody the highest benefits of anything, you know, I'm not saying this person is so, so good. No, but they definitely good people to work with. And it's different discussions, different people. And I decided, you known what I mean, just to see where it go. Like we said, we'll take risks in life, see where it goes, I don't think they bad people. We're going to see where it goes. I'm still learning about this NFT more and more, and I just want to see where it goes. And that's was just pretty much that, you know what I mean? Too much to go into detail but I appreciate them for even giving me the opportunity. You know what I mean? They definitely looked out a lot, you know what I mean? a lot. And I could tell they have a lot of hustle and motivation to put forward into my NFT. So that's one of the reasons to as to why we work with them. Because I really feel like intuition with certain people and just having to understand, like, when it comes to business, you might not always know. You can't always say you know people. Even if you research them, no matter what the situation is, sometimes things might not work for you. You know what I mean? So you just look more to it. And you see how it go as it goes. I mean, seeing business situations I handled in the past, some things didn't go right. Some things went right, you know, and it's just like with them. I feel good, you know? And it was like, let's go, let's see where it goes. Let's take these events and take risks.  Dan Runcie  21:52 Yeah, it makes me think of two things. One, with Serenade, their eco-friendly pitch stuck out to me, too, just because a lot of people don't talk about how much energy is burned when people are either making NFTs or doing things related to gas fees, or any of this stuff like, it's a lot. Well, I'm glad that they're pushing that piece of it. And then, two, what I like about this for you, as well, is I've seen a lot of these times where new platforms or newer platforms will pitch themselves to a popular artist that has a fan base and then if they're able to grow with it, then that obviously attracts more and more artists, and then the artist gets a bit of that influence sort of help push this and they become, in many ways, one of the faces to push that brand through, especially if things continue to grow. Young M.A  22:36 Right. Exactly. So like it's just understandable. Like, some, some, some people, you know, you got to get it like, that's why I said, like, I'm learning more about this, this, this, this whole company, this whole NFT thing, this whole new dispersion of just this new, new elevation of life, you know, and the evolution of life. And that's what I'm getting at. And I just want people to just... I want people to put the same kind of risk into and just had that understanding and learn more because like it's going... no matter what we do. We know we want to be so old school as much as possible. We're like, you know, you can still hold on to that like, Oh, no to the... But like, you still got to make sure you had... Dan Runcie  23:15 Right. How do you keep up with all of it? I mean, every week, I feel like there's something new happening with Web 3.0 or that Metaverse. Young M.A  23:22 Right, me too. I feel like... I feel like damn, wait, what's this right here? Like, I ain't going to lie, like, I ain't going to lie. It is hard to keep up with. I mean, I'm getting it, you know. I feel like I don't got to force it, too? You know, I don't always feel like I have to force it. Like, I'm the type of person, I will catch up with yo ass. I'm not running around, laps around, you know what I mean? Like, if you're already ahead, I'm like, alright, alright. I'm observing. I'm like that turtle, you know what I mean? Chasing the rabbit?  Dan Runcie  23:50 Yep. Yep.  Young M.A  23:51 You know, I mean, yeah, so... Dan Runcie  23:53 Yeah, that's the thing. We're still in the early days with this, too. I think that's what people forget, I get it. Everyone wants to jump at the newest thing of the opportunity that's there. But we're still figuring a lot out about how so much of this is gonna shake out. And I feel like the way you're doing it is right. It's not like you're saying, No, I don't fully understand. But alright, if I get this enough to at least test this out, no different than a startup, just put it at initial product. Let's see how this works. All right. And we learned and then we continue to tweak. Young M.A  24:22 Exactly, you know what I mean? You just learn as you go. That's how I look at life, you learn as you go. I mean, some things may not work for you, something will. You never know. Like, even if it don't, it may be something that makes you do something that changed something. You know what I mean? You might retreat something. You don't know where this is going to lead you. Everybody could be entrepreneurs. Anybody could just be what they could be, you know what I mean?  And that's just way of... Dan Runcie  24:44 Yeah, for sure.  Young M.A  24:45 Yeah. Dan Runcie  24:45 If anything, now, there's probably getting even more, with people reaching out about different opportunities. It's like you're picking your spots, right? And kind of with how you structured your career, I bet that you say no a lot, even if it's outside of the record labels or anyone else, just because there's only so much that you want to focus on. And there's only so much that you can do. So if you're saying yes to something that means it's definitely crossed at some level where it's like, no, this is worth our time. And we think that this is worth the potential benefit of what it could do for our fans and for us. Young M.A  25:17 Yeah, me and my team, we family. You know what I mean? They consider me like a boss, but I don't consider that. I just consider us all, you know, just everybody working in this spots, in place, of course, I'm the yay or the nay... I mean, if I want to do it, I won't do it. If I want to do it, I'm going to do it. And there's that. But other than that, like that's what I said, I don't, I don't need a hundred people... As long as I got the right people and the right positions. That's all. That's all about relationships, man. It's all about relationships, whatever relationship you decide to, you know, what I mean, you keep or whatever you feel like is right for you, go about that. Other than that, like, I always know, like, I will avoid certain things. People look at something like glamor... and think that's just it all the time because they want to keep a certain relationship. But like, I don't think nothing's wrong with it. Don't get me wrong, but like, I don't have the kiss nobody else. Like, it ain't that I don't want to I'm not just a mean person, just like, I still always stand like firm to my ground. Like, I always stand firm to like, certain things, I believe in certain things on this day. When I see through somebody and I see bullshit, I will literally like just leave you alone, like there's no talking about that. And I don't have to go against you. I don't have to be mad, or will be angry. I got to be aggressive? No, Just like... And we go about our business. And it's just about that, you know what I mean? Like, I see when one person act towards this person this certain way and this person acts towards this person a certain way. I see those type of vibes. And when I see those type of vibes, I just don't look at you genuinely. You know what I mean? So, I know when somebody... And that's how I move with you, I move with you the same way you're probably moving. And that's just that, you know I mean? That's how I just, you know what I mean, like, I just understand this game and all that that's why I don't really play too much part into things like, I got a lot of people associated with in this industry that a lot of friends and then they got people that... but that's just a game. And I understood that a long time ago. Dan Runcie  27:02 Right. And I feel like with how you’ve built this, what it ties back to you for me is you have a very clear understanding of who you are and what you want out of this game. And because of that, it helps you make better decisions and helps you not have that fear of missing out that other people do and you can be like No, like we're focused on what we're doing. And I think that's what hurts so many artists because so many artists get frustrated that they're not doing what that 1% of people are doing, they're not doing that thing and I think that mentality can all always just set you up for not feeling fulfilled or not feeling like you're doing enough. But you were able to have a pretty even perspective with that. Do you feel like you always had that? Or do you feel like that's something that you just became better with navigating over your career? Young M.A  27:48 No, I always had that. Because if I didn't, I would have been so. Dan Runcie  27:51 Yeah, yeah. Well, the thing is, though, you did say that there were times where you did go back and forth and you at least considered whether you should or not, right? Young M.A  28:00 No, I had meeting yes, I have meetings of course. I had meetings. I wasn't, it wasn't that I wasn't I never going to give nobody a chance. I wasn't like... that's what I'm trying to say. I'm not against it. I'm not against it. I'm never against nothing. I've never against nothing. It's just like, I give things the actual opportunity. I'm a type of person, like, if I know for sure, for sure that it is not right, then, of course, it's clear. I already know. Because I know, because I know. But other than that, if I don't know, and I'm like, alright, let me just, at least, even if I have an intuition, I'm going to still go try. And if I'm right, then I'm right. If I'm wrong then damn, you know what I mean? Change my mind, you know, and I go from there. Like, that's just how I look at it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not against nothing. I'm never against nothing. It's just more so like, I want nobody to feel like I'm like, against, like, what people will do or how they do it, or... Anybody can do how they want to do what they want to do when they want to do. Me, I'm just the type of person where I observe, you know what I mean? I go about it how I go about it. I want nobody to feel like I'm like, this person where I'm just happy-go-lucky, then. You know what I mean? You feel like, oh, yeah, we got to have it. Because that's how people come into it. Like these little young boys, young kids. They're so happy to have opportunity but they don't read between the lines, you know what I mean? And that's what it means. And I mean, always you have a lawyer and always you had somebody, a guardian beside you, you know, always you have somebody to understand, or you might have been people, enough people might just be really just trying to take advantage of you the whole time. You know what I mean? So like, I just don't trust nothing. Even if next to me, you won't don't got to be across the table. You could be next to me and I still don't... So like, that's just how I've always have moved, like, I always move like make sure I'll protect me. You know what I mean? Like, you can say you're for me. I will hear that. But I mean, I got to believe, right? Dan Runcie  29:46 No, that's real. That's not real. And I mean, I appreciate you for sharing the insights here. I feel like a lot of people have looked up to you and appreciated how you run your career and I feel like this drop, this NFT job specifically, it's just that next evolution that ties back to everything you've been doing, so before we let you go, is there anything else you want to plug or you want to let the Trapital audience to know about? Young M.A  30:06 Yeah, just know we're going on tour, man. April 23. We're in VA, Portsmouth, VA. . Portsmouth Virginia. It's at the 420ish, it's called the 420ish Festival. Make sure you have... that's where you start. And then I think we're in Cincinnati after that. 26 and then 27, I think the tour will be in Mesa, so we'll be able to on tour for a month. Off The Yak tour. Yeah, so that's pretty much, NFT about to drop. New music be here soon, I can't, I don't really know if we should. I'm going throw that in the air real quick... Dan Runcie  30:37 Yeah. Because I was gonna say I thought you got a song lined up with the NFT drop, right? Young M.A  30:39 Oh, yeah. Aye Day Pay Day.  Dan Runcie  30:40 Yeah. Young M.A  30:40 Aye Day Pay Day. That's right, Aye Day Pay Day, y'all. Aye Day Pay Day. Dan Runcie  30:46 I know, I was gonna say we can't let the interview cut if you don't mention the song. But Young M.A, this is great. I appreciate you coming on. Young M.A  30:52 Thank you both. I appreciate it you guys. Dan Runcie  30:56 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 29 Apr 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Young M.A and the $20 NFT full Dan Runcie Music NFTs are all the rage as of late. Entering the mix is Young M.A, who dropped a capsule on April 19. But in true Young M.A fashion, she took a different approach to her first-ever NFT project. For one, each NFT is only $20, making it widely accessible to her diehard fanbase. That’s a departure from most artists-focused NFTs that are on the pricier side due to their limitedness. In total, Young M.A dropped five NFT collections with 250 editions in each — for a total of 1,250. Each of the five collections represents key moments in Young M.A’s career. From first going viral with her Brooklyn Chiraq freestyle to the smashing success of “OOOUUU” and other highlights.  Moreover, the capsule is exclusive to new NFT marketplace Serenade. The platform prides itself on being eco-friendly in an industry widely criticized for its energy consumption.  The NFT collection is just one way Young M.A is staying connected to her fans these days. She’s also on tour and has continued to invest in non-music products like her adult toy line. Here’s everything we covered in this episode: [0:00] Seeing where things go [2:45] Purpose Behind Young M.A’s NFT Drop [9:29] Surprising Price Point For Young M.A’s NFT Capsule [10:14] Young M.A Has Hesitations About The Drop (Honest Talk)  [12:32] Prioritizing Long-Term Impact With Business Ventures [12:55] Young M.A’s Relationship With Fame [15:37] How Young M.A Approaches Non-Music Business Ventures [20:10] Partnering With Serenade For The NFT Drop [23:22] Keeping Up With Web 3.0 & Music Industry  [28:00] Young M.A Understands Her Place In The Industry Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Young M.A, @youngma, serenade.co/@youngma   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Transcript ________________ Young M.A  00:00 When it comes to business, you might not always know. You can't always say you know people. Even if you research them, no matter what the situation is, sometimes things might not work for you. You know what I mean? So you just look more to it. And you see how it goes as it goes. I mean, seeing business situations I handled in the past, some things didn't go right. Some things went right, you know, and it's just like with them. I feel good, you know? And it was like, let's go, let's see where it goes. Let's take these events and take risks.  Dan Runcie  00:31 Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  Today's guest is Young M.A. You may know her for her hits like BROOKLYN (Chiraq), OOOUUU, and plenty others that helped her go six times platinum. I knew this was going to be a good interview because, the moment that I logged on to the chat, Young M.A was already in there. And her first words were "took you long enough." And that's what I knew that we're in for a good one. Young M.A came on the Trapital podcast because she just had an NF T drop for her latest single Aye Day Pay Day. And she did it as a series of stories throughout her career. And she launched her NFTs different than most artists do. As I've written and talked about on this podcast, people have looked at NFTs as a way to monetize and make a lot of money from being able to sell high-end products as collectibles. But Young M.A is going about in a different way. She only has 250 drops for each of the five NFTs in this collection. And she's only selling them for $20. That's it. So we talked about the decision, how she's approached this, and why she made the decision that she has. And I think a lot of this ties into her mentality. As an artist, Young M.A is one of the more strong proponents of being an independent artist and what that means. And we talked about how this relates to how she looks at record labels and a lot of the deals that she's turned down. And we also talked about some of      Young M.A's investments too. She's invested in a bunch of different areas. So we talked about that. We also talked about some of the other trends happening in this music industry, how she keeps up with everything, how her team is structured, and a whole lot more. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did.  Here's my chat with Young M.A. All right, today, we're joined by the one and only Young M.A, who has a big drop for us today. She is launching an NFT. And I'm excited and I want to hear more. So break it down. Why was now the time for you to make this drop happen? Young M.A  02:45 I see. You know, I'm the same person. I don't, I don't talk all that extra “Aaah.”  I keep it real. The big one since A1.  You know what I mean? I honestly didn't know too much about it, you know what I mean? I used to see it every now and then. And I didn't understand what it was because I'm the type of person like, like, if it don't make sense to me at the moment of me seeing it, I'm just not going to pay attention. I don't see interest into things that everybody else see interesting, too, you know what I mean? So that was literally the case. But I didn't see it casually and then once my team brought it to my attention, it was like, oh, okay, I know what you're talking about, you know what I mean? Like, I've seen, so I'm guessing this is like the new way of things, new wave of things, or whatever. So focusing my attention, you know, just basically gave me the intellect of it, the background of it, detail and everything like that. Somehow, Okay, okay, no, still not understanding it too much. But you know, kind of intrigued into it. And they kind of like broke it down. So I was like, Yo, give me a little more like pinpoint, because like, I do want to understand this situation, because it'd be something that's going to be longevity, and something's that's gonna help, you know, long term future-wise. And it's like, one of the new way that's coming in, you know, why not, you know, at least, you know, check it out. So we talked more about it, had a meeting, and, and we came up with kind of like I did. So once they broke down the ideas to me of like, what's, like, the meaning of it. And also like, what I would do if I do it. And then it become a more of understanding that was like, Okay, now I can go, you know what I mean? It's not just like, like anything we ever did before. Like, it's not like, it's, like, we did but like more digital, you know what I mean? It's like what we did but digital, in a different sense. So I'm like, okay, I get it now. So once I got that understanding, there's like, I got more intrigued, and I was like, let's go. You know, I'm the type of person, like, I'd take risks. I don't believe in like, No, I gotta, I gotta be the see it to believe it type person, like, I got to see. You know, even if I got to take that risk. I had taken risk all my life, so now I was like, I want to take this risk of, a new risk of taking risk. Let's take this risk. So we got to to it on, whatever the case, got involved with a team or whatever. And we came to a point where it was like, alright, if I'm going to do this, you already know my vibe. Not going to do it on nobody else's terms and circumstances and shit like that. Like, I know how it moves. So me understanding that this is how it goes about, let's go into a route where it's going to make, make sense for me. That's always been my, my way of grinding since I came up. Anything that I've ever done always went in a sense of how I had to do, so on and, you know, still be independent, of course. So we came up with this, all my team came up with this plan of like just creating like a timeline of, like, when I first started. Literally from the ground up, like... I wouldn't say the ground up because literally I started from the ground like, like, probably like 19 years old. For like far as like when social media and stuff like that really came into play as far as music, we wanted to start from there and we started from like my first freestyling, like, went viral, BROOKLYN (Chiraq Freestyle), you know what I mean?  When Facebook was like one of the hottest things ever, at the time, like Instagram was still hot. Cool. Instagram was hot but like, Facebook was one of the places where you want to go viral before you went viral on Instagram. Before... I came from them. I mean, SoundCloud, before there was SoundCloud rappers, I was on SoundCloud, you know what I mean? So like, we really wanted to bring that world into, like, just my supporters and my fan base. So it's really not too much about trying to sell this. It's more so about trying to give back to my supporters. In a way now that I understand that NF T is a way of them making money by just putting one investment into me, after like years of investment you will put into me, this is your way of making money, just like that? Come on, man. You know, I mean, like of course, I'm gonna jump into that. But of course, I still need to know more detail into it or whatever the case. So as time goes on, we come up with the details, we like, let's pinpoint the biggest times on your career. Chiraq Freestyle go viral. Boom. Years later, everybody knows, a lot of being on all these like big radio stations. Hot 97. after that and we went viral. On this... She started doing shows in Connecticut and Tri-state areas. You know what I mean? Like, I'm starting to do these type of things. Now my come up is coming up. Now OOOUUU come out, boom, because they like we need a club record. Boom, come with them. Exactly. I gotcha, you know what I mean? Like boom, OOOUUU, come out. Now that's became the biggest break now. Now, I'm crossing other into the industry. Another, you know, milestone in my career. We go from that, boom. And now we go into Petty Wap. It is a lot. So like, that's basically the timeline. Like there's so much that I did in between each time that could really count. But it's like, when you pinpoint, like, literally, like, the bowstones of everything. So like, that's what the NFT is really about, it was creating and like, like, you know, the longevity and what could create from each individual situation that you might not never know, that might develop as you go, you know what I mean? So that's what I feel like my NFT should be about. I don't know what everybody else is doing and shit about. Like, I heard about the research, I heard about, you know, people's, like, unreleased stuff. Of course, like I do unreleased music, or unreleased merch or unreleased things and shit like that. Of course, you get the exclusive. But to me, like, my NFTs, they have to, like gravitate to something close to me. It made my supporters understand that it's still me. It's not about just, yeah, having new stuff that nobody got. No, it's still connecting with you all. At the end of the day, I look at this. I don't know, I don't look at this for money. Like, I don't know, I don't know where people mine that or whatever. As humans, whatever the case, and they only be... But like me, as a artists. I always had this mindset. I treat my supporters as my family, for, like, this my way of, like, giving back. It's like me getting a platinum plaque. And seeing that I went platinum again. Like just, like it just, like I feel so good about just having that platinum plaque as another accomplishment. There's no one that I'm doing what I'm doing. So like for them to have something valuable, 250 out of millions, billions, and trillions of people in this world. You got that? Like, that's what matters to me. I don't know about that money stuff, bro. Okay, so that's what I'm trying to say. Dan Runcie  08:51 Yeah. Was it tough to limit the amount because it's only 250 people for each of the drops, and you got a lot of... Young M.A  08:52 Exactly.  Dan Runcie  08:54 ...Young M.A fans out there. Was it tough to limit it? Young M.A  08:59 Yeah, that's basically the case. Like, I'm still trying to figure it out. Like once it dropped and I see like how things go about, I just want to see the reaction. Like, I'm not even looking into like, like, I know the money aspects of things. And if you want to talk money, but, like, my benefit from it is more so like seeing what they value from it, you know what I mean? Like... Dan Runcie  09:20 Yeah, let's talk the money piece of it first, just to get that out of the way. So you got 250 of volume. And of course, the goal is to sell out, how much are they? And are they different prices for each of the five different ones?  Young M.A  09:29 No, they're $20.  Dan Runcie  09:31 And see that's important because I think most people that do drops like this, if you only have a limited amount, they think it's going to be thousands of dollars, right? But you're like, so essentially it's like a first come first whoever gets it first, right?  Young M.A  09:42 Yeah, $20, $20. I feel like, you know, like my supporters.  If you could buy merch, I mean my merch is more $20, oh there you go. If my merch is, like, more than $20, or you could buy a ticket to come see me, my whole package, meet and greets, all that, it should be like a bucket of change. If you can spend $20 just have an NFT of me and make money off it, like, I don't know what to say, you know, like, I'm not a...  I just feel like, you know, like, we take risks, we take risks. Dan Runcie  10:08 Do you feel like this was a big risk for you though? Because I feel like it's a slam dunk. I mean, you know that you got the fans that are going to want it.  Young M.A  10:14 Yeah, I mean, I don't look at it like a slam dunk, though. I don't know why. And that's just me being honest. I don't know why, like, I don't know, if it's just not in my heart to like, I don't really look at money value. I don't know. There's just something, I don't know. It's just something in my heart that just never been that person. Like, of course, I'm going to make money. Yes, I had to make money to survive. But my intent into going into things be more deeper than people ever think. Like, I really think deeper into things, like I have to understand. Because if I don't understand something 100%, like, what this NFT, I'm gonna keep it G. I don't know 100% about it. I do know enough. But I don't know 100%. And when I don't know, 100%+, about something. I'm not going to never put my trust into it. 100%. I'm going put my trust into how much I understand. So my trust is how much I understand per say, right? You know what I mean? And I just want to see how my supporters feel and what's gonna make them happy. If it ain't making them happy, I want to do it. And that's real, bro. Dan Runcie  11:13 Oh, yeah. And I think the good thing with it, too, you have other exclusive perks lined up. If someone collects all five of them, then you invite them to certain things, and you know fans are always going to appreciate that. And I feel like this also taps into how you run your game in the industry from since you've been in this, you know, because you were always more about longevity. You were always more about the money. That is how you approach any deal that came through or you weren't trying to approach it with a bag. It wasn't about the bag, it had to be more than that. Young M.A  11:42 Yeah, I had to always be more. I've been sitting in so many record labels... I fell asleep in one, I ain't going to say which label. I'm not going to say which one. But I literally lay my head on the table because they just said everything everybody else said and I don't have none of these labels. I don't. I just felt like it just wasn't, it wasn't in my league. You know what I mean? So I didn't want to tap into, some certain people I didn't want to sign to. I just felt like independent was my best move, because I just understood me. Like it was just more so, like. the industry wasn't about money to me. It wasn't about that. It was more so about understanding me as an artist, and how I express myself, and who I am. You all don't know me. You all don't know. You don't know. So you all can't tell me, which I can do for me. All you have to tell me what it is I can do for y'all that will do for me. But it won't do for me.  Dan Runcie  12:31 Right. Young M.A  12:32 You know what I'm saying? So like, I'd rather move slow-paced than fast-paced. Just to get a quick dollar? No, like, like, I love the position I'm it. Like, I don't like that fast life. I don't even like the fame. I don't. I just love my supporters. I love when I go on stage. I love when I got to handle my business, when I got to handle my business. You know what I mean? And just like, just enjoying life, as long as my family's taken care of. That's all I care about, like all that fast-paced stuff and all that stuff like that. Like, I don't need it. It's fun when it's fun, like I can have those moments. I can go on a boat. I'm going on a yacht. I can drive a fast car. I can drive them... And it's just like, Okay, now like, I'm going to... I go to club, I can go... Dan Runcie  13:11 Let's talk about relationship with fame. Because I feel like that's an interesting point, right? Like you would have the moment after, what is, Chiraq Freestyle or even after OOOUUU when things blew up. Now you're a few years past that. Do you feel like, the way things are right now, you're in a pretty good spot where, you know, I feel like the level of fame I have is in line with where I am comfortable, or do you still feel like no, no, I wish I was less famous than this. Young M.A  13:37 No, actually, I think I'm in a comfortable spot. Because even when sometimes, like now, like I noticed, like, of course, I get bored. You know, sometimes you get bored. You know, that's just normal human being stuff. But you'll get bored. So you want to go out. And then sometimes I'll go out. And they'd be like, like, this is so normal. Like, I just be seeing guys. It's just everybody just acting... Like, man, been there, done that. And it's just like, so, it's just so common. It's like sometimes, like it'd be certain moments that feel good. It's like, this is the time to celebrate, like it's like accomplishment to me now more so than just going out for fun, like random and stuff like that. You know what I mean? Now it was more so like if we go out we have a good time, it's because we just, we just, you know, dropped the check or something. You know what I mean? Are we just invested in something, you know, we just got this or we got that. Like that celebration to me more is now more of a celebration and more fun to me now. All of just like randomly going out stuff to me is like. it's cool, but it's like, it's not as exciting. And I'm going to say that and that's just me being honest. Like, I can say it's me getting older but I can just say it's really me just probably, it's just, something that I always had in me. Like, even when I used to, like go out when the phase first happened, with OOOUUU and all that. It was fun, but I still wasn't like dramatic about it. Like I was never like that, Oh yeah, I'm happy to be in clubs, like, it was just like enjoying the moment I guess. Like, it was like one of the... Cool, cool, but I still wasn't like extra, like, I never got in trouble. I never went, you know what I mean? I never went crazy. You know, I still kept my composure even when having that much success and fame at the very moment. So like, even now that I've been there, done that, it's like, I'd be looking around at people and I'll just be like, damn, I understand. But like, to me, like, it's like, I can leave right now and be okay. You know? And that's where my mind and like, I'm automatically thinking like, damn, so tomorrow, I need to figure out, like, what next business move... And that's really when my mind be like, all day running like that. And that's just really how I be like. Dan Runcie  15:37 Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Yeah, I feel like with you especially, you mentioned the investment piece. What does that piece of your business look like? What are some of the investment opportunities you've looked at? And how do you evaluate them? Young M.A  15:38 Well, I can't tell you too much. So I'm going to shhh on that. But what I am, into I'm not going to tell you what I'm... Dan Runcie  15:55 You're going to give us something public though? Young M.A  15:57 So right now I got the, of course, the NFT and then I got the sex toy line that a lot of people, I mean, they aware of it but like, you know, just to get more aware in, you know, when we have these interviews. I have a sex toy line being that people want to talk about my strap, like I use things to my advantage. That just makes sense. Like, you got to talk about me, you're going to walk about me, you know what I mean? So like, I got the sex toy line that I originally created in collab with Doc Johnson, which is a big sex company located, like, based in LA, or whatever the case and, like, they just known, like, everywhere, like, they're literally like a big ass company. And we had like a meeting, went probably like three years ago. And we locked out with them and I came up with this own, my own sex toy line called Play Nyce, called Play Nyce. N-Y-C, so N-Y-C-E, so that's Play Nyce with a Y. That's why... With a Y. I just placed everything in one and NYC. I always do that. Like, even with my chains like this is Young M.A but it looked like the Loki symbol. You know, I always put anything when it comes to, like, where I'm from, what I'm based on, everything, just as long as it what makes sense. But like, yeah, we came up with that. So like, it's like a whole starter kit of sex toys and like, you know, strap-ons, and stuff like that. And even cleaning your strap-ons or whatever. So when they can't, you know, get pleased by whoever they want to get pleased by, they please they self. And then I also got the vibrators as well, because a lot of women are using vibrators now, and that's also by Play Nyce but it's called Power Play. Because there's a lot of power and it plays with that... And that's just, you know what I'm saying? And you know, I got a lot of, like, lot of positive comments back from that Power Play right there. And a lot of women use vibrators. And it's, like, so many different styles, they've been telling me about. So I've been doing my research and trying to get to it. So like, I just started off with that. So I'm gonna get more in tune with that, because that's literally like, a way for women, and I love women. So that's always going to work for me. So I'm definitely locking in with that, like, continuously. So that's just been in the works on that. So my website is shopyoungma. Everything is on shopyoungma.com. And then I got the PSD collaboration as well with my boxers. So we got like different, like, styles of boxers. like women's booty short-type boxers, and they got the men's boxers. Well, briefs, boxer briefs, like locked and tight. And then they got the women's sports bras. We actually got like all my designs and stuff like that. So we've been locked in with PTSD so make sure you all check that out as well. So it's basically underwear. And also Nyak. Nyak is my liquor brand that I've been associated with. They also had their own company, but they brought me a part of it with my own VSOP bottle. So I get my benefits from my actual own bottle which is all red. This is brown, is a brown label, is called Nyak, N-Y-A-K, you know what I mean? And mine's an all-red bottle, same thing, Nyak. But my actual, like, logo was on the bottle so you know it's mine, it's all red. And so I've been like, you know what I mean, doing little entrepreneur stuff, and then we got more stuff too, but you know, I'm just going keep quiet and not tell you. Dan Runcie  19:02 No, I hear that. Well, I appreciate you sharing those though. And the sex toys and the adult toys in general. I feel like that lines up with some of the stuff you've done before. I know you've directed adult films before so I feel like you've been in this space. Young M.A  19:16 Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And that's why it was perfect to actually release that because it wasn't coming from left field, you know what I mean, when that first came out. It was like a lot of people was like oh... Like, Young M.A on porn? So that literally became like a token discussion or whatever, so then it was like perfect timing because it's like, so now you're all talking about this, I see you're always talking about my strap, I was like, let's bridge the gap. There you go. So now I'm making money from you all. Hello. From not even from just y'all, from the people that... You know what I mean, like girl, or a man, I don't even care. It don't matter. Dan Runcie  19:51 Yeah, so I feel like that lines up, too, and even back to the first piece. I know you've got the partnership here with Serenade for the NFT drop itself and... what does that relationship like? And I guess, first, what was it that made you want to partner with them on this? And then what does the relationship look like with them moving forward? Young M.A  20:10 I ain't going to lie... I believe they didn't know too much about, you know what I mean? Like, I just know, once, you know, I really got the confirmation that they was, you know, more so equal, friendly, equal, friendly more than anything, and that's a big plus, in itself. Why do we want to establish more of a relationship with them? You know what I mean, after this NFT drop, and that's what kind of what we've been planning. You know what I mean? Like, I'm more so like an observant person, like, once I meet you, I understand. He was like, okay, cool. So once I met them, and it's like, okay, you know what I mean, we can move forward. If things don't go right then things don't go, right. That's just in the business. And so you know, what I mean, I'm not giving nobody the highest benefits of anything, you know, I'm not saying this person is so, so good. No, but they definitely good people to work with. And it's different discussions, different people. And I decided, you known what I mean, just to see where it go. Like we said, we'll take risks in life, see where it goes, I don't think they bad people. We're going to see where it goes. I'm still learning about this NFT more and more, and I just want to see where it goes. And that's was just pretty much that, you know what I mean? Too much to go into detail but I appreciate them for even giving me the opportunity. You know what I mean? They definitely looked out a lot, you know what I mean? a lot. And I could tell they have a lot of hustle and motivation to put forward into my NFT. So that's one of the reasons to as to why we work with them. Because I really feel like intuition with certain people and just having to understand, like, when it comes to business, you might not always know. You can't always say you know people. Even if you research them, no matter what the situation is, sometimes things might not work for you. You know what I mean? So you just look more to it. And you see how it go as it goes. I mean, seeing business situations I handled in the past, some things didn't go right. Some things went right, you know, and it's just like with them. I feel good, you know? And it was like, let's go, let's see where it goes. Let's take these events and take risks.  Dan Runcie  21:52 Yeah, it makes me think of two things. One, with Serenade, their eco-friendly pitch stuck out to me, too, just because a lot of people don't talk about how much energy is burned when people are either making NFTs or doing things related to gas fees, or any of this stuff like, it's a lot. Well, I'm glad that they're pushing that piece of it. And then, two, what I like about this for you, as well, is I've seen a lot of these times where new platforms or newer platforms will pitch themselves to a popular artist that has a fan base and then if they're able to grow with it, then that obviously attracts more and more artists, and then the artist gets a bit of that influence sort of help push this and they become, in many ways, one of the faces to push that brand through, especially if things continue to grow. Young M.A  22:36 Right. Exactly. So like it's just understandable. Like, some, some, some people, you know, you got to get it like, that's why I said, like, I'm learning more about this, this, this, this whole company, this whole NFT thing, this whole new dispersion of just this new, new elevation of life, you know, and the evolution of life. And that's what I'm getting at. And I just want people to just... I want people to put the same kind of risk into and just had that understanding and learn more because like it's going... no matter what we do. We know we want to be so old school as much as possible. We're like, you know, you can still hold on to that like, Oh, no to the... But like, you still got to make sure you had... Dan Runcie  23:15 Right. How do you keep up with all of it? I mean, every week, I feel like there's something new happening with Web 3.0 or that Metaverse. Young M.A  23:22 Right, me too. I feel like... I feel like damn, wait, what's this right here? Like, I ain't going to lie, like, I ain't going to lie. It is hard to keep up with. I mean, I'm getting it, you know. I feel like I don't got to force it, too? You know, I don't always feel like I have to force it. Like, I'm the type of person, I will catch up with yo ass. I'm not running around, laps around, you know what I mean? Like, if you're already ahead, I'm like, alright, alright. I'm observing. I'm like that turtle, you know what I mean? Chasing the rabbit?  Dan Runcie  23:50 Yep. Yep.  Young M.A  23:51 You know, I mean, yeah, so... Dan Runcie  23:53 Yeah, that's the thing. We're still in the early days with this, too. I think that's what people forget, I get it. Everyone wants to jump at the newest thing of the opportunity that's there. But we're still figuring a lot out about how so much of this is gonna shake out. And I feel like the way you're doing it is right. It's not like you're saying, No, I don't fully understand. But alright, if I get this enough to at least test this out, no different than a startup, just put it at initial product. Let's see how this works. All right. And we learned and then we continue to tweak. Young M.A  24:22 Exactly, you know what I mean? You just learn as you go. That's how I look at life, you learn as you go. I mean, some things may not work for you, something will. You never know. Like, even if it don't, it may be something that makes you do something that changed something. You know what I mean? You might retreat something. You don't know where this is going to lead you. Everybody could be entrepreneurs. Anybody could just be what they could be, you know what I mean?  And that's just way of... Dan Runcie  24:44 Yeah, for sure.  Young M.A  24:45 Yeah. Dan Runcie  24:45 If anything, now, there's probably getting even more, with people reaching out about different opportunities. It's like you're picking your spots, right? And kind of with how you structured your career, I bet that you say no a lot, even if it's outside of the record labels or anyone else, just because there's only so much that you want to focus on. And there's only so much that you can do. So if you're saying yes to something that means it's definitely crossed at some level where it's like, no, this is worth our time. And we think that this is worth the potential benefit of what it could do for our fans and for us. Young M.A  25:17 Yeah, me and my team, we family. You know what I mean? They consider me like a boss, but I don't consider that. I just consider us all, you know, just everybody working in this spots, in place, of course, I'm the yay or the nay... I mean, if I want to do it, I won't do it. If I want to do it, I'm going to do it. And there's that. But other than that, like that's what I said, I don't, I don't need a hundred people... As long as I got the right people and the right positions. That's all. That's all about relationships, man. It's all about relationships, whatever relationship you decide to, you know, what I mean, you keep or whatever you feel like is right for you, go about that. Other than that, like, I always know, like, I will avoid certain things. People look at something like glamor... and think that's just it all the time because they want to keep a certain relationship. But like, I don't think nothing's wrong with it. Don't get me wrong, but like, I don't have the kiss nobody else. Like, it ain't that I don't want to I'm not just a mean person, just like, I still always stand like firm to my ground. Like, I always stand firm to like, certain things, I believe in certain things on this day. When I see through somebody and I see bullshit, I will literally like just leave you alone, like there's no talking about that. And I don't have to go against you. I don't have to be mad, or will be angry. I got to be aggressive? No, Just like... And we go about our business. And it's just about that, you know what I mean? Like, I see when one person act towards this person this certain way and this person acts towards this person a certain way. I see those type of vibes. And when I see those type of vibes, I just don't look at you genuinely. You know what I mean? So, I know when somebody... And that's how I move with you, I move with you the same way you're probably moving. And that's just that, you know I mean? That's how I just, you know what I mean, like, I just understand this game and all that that's why I don't really play too much part into things like, I got a lot of people associated with in this industry that a lot of friends and then they got people that... but that's just a game. And I understood that a long time ago. Dan Runcie  27:02 Right. And I feel like with how you’ve built this, what it ties back to you for me is you have a very clear understanding of who you are and what you want out of this game. And because of that, it helps you make better decisions and helps you not have that fear of missing out that other people do and you can be like No, like we're focused on what we're doing. And I think that's what hurts so many artists because so many artists get frustrated that they're not doing what that 1% of people are doing, they're not doing that thing and I think that mentality can all always just set you up for not feeling fulfilled or not feeling like you're doing enough. But you were able to have a pretty even perspective with that. Do you feel like you always had that? Or do you feel like that's something that you just became better with navigating over your career? Young M.A  27:48 No, I always had that. Because if I didn't, I would have been so. Dan Runcie  27:51 Yeah, yeah. Well, the thing is, though, you did say that there were times where you did go back and forth and you at least considered whether you should or not, right? Young M.A  28:00 No, I had meeting yes, I have meetings of course. I had meetings. I wasn't, it wasn't that I wasn't I never going to give nobody a chance. I wasn't like... that's what I'm trying to say. I'm not against it. I'm not against it. I'm never against nothing. I've never against nothing. It's just like, I give things the actual opportunity. I'm a type of person, like, if I know for sure, for sure that it is not right, then, of course, it's clear. I already know. Because I know, because I know. But other than that, if I don't know, and I'm like, alright, let me just, at least, even if I have an intuition, I'm going to still go try. And if I'm right, then I'm right. If I'm wrong then damn, you know what I mean? Change my mind, you know, and I go from there. Like, that's just how I look at it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not against nothing. I'm never against nothing. It's just more so like, I want nobody to feel like I'm like, against, like, what people will do or how they do it, or... Anybody can do how they want to do what they want to do when they want to do. Me, I'm just the type of person where I observe, you know what I mean? I go about it how I go about it. I want nobody to feel like I'm like, this person where I'm just happy-go-lucky, then. You know what I mean? You feel like, oh, yeah, we got to have it. Because that's how people come into it. Like these little young boys, young kids. They're so happy to have opportunity but they don't read between the lines, you know what I mean? And that's what it means. And I mean, always you have a lawyer and always you had somebody, a guardian beside you, you know, always you have somebody to understand, or you might have been people, enough people might just be really just trying to take advantage of you the whole time. You know what I mean? So like, I just don't trust nothing. Even if next to me, you won't don't got to be across the table. You could be next to me and I still don't... So like, that's just how I've always have moved, like, I always move like make sure I'll protect me. You know what I mean? Like, you can say you're for me. I will hear that. But I mean, I got to believe, right? Dan Runcie  29:46 No, that's real. That's not real. And I mean, I appreciate you for sharing the insights here. I feel like a lot of people have looked up to you and appreciated how you run your career and I feel like this drop, this NFT job specifically, it's just that next evolution that ties back to everything you've been doing, so before we let you go, is there anything else you want to plug or you want to let the Trapital audience to know about? Young M.A  30:06 Yeah, just know we're going on tour, man. April 23. We're in VA, Portsmouth, VA. . Portsmouth Virginia. It's at the 420ish, it's called the 420ish Festival. Make sure you have... that's where you start. And then I think we're in Cincinnati after that. 26 and then 27, I think the tour will be in Mesa, so we'll be able to on tour for a month. Off The Yak tour. Yeah, so that's pretty much, NFT about to drop. New music be here soon, I can't, I don't really know if we should. I'm going throw that in the air real quick... Dan Runcie  30:37 Yeah. Because I was gonna say I thought you got a song lined up with the NFT drop, right? Young M.A  30:39 Oh, yeah. Aye Day Pay Day.  Dan Runcie  30:40 Yeah. Young M.A  30:40 Aye Day Pay Day. That's right, Aye Day Pay Day, y'all. Aye Day Pay Day. Dan Runcie  30:46 I know, I was gonna say we can't let the interview cut if you don't mention the song. But Young M.A, this is great. I appreciate you coming on. Young M.A  30:52 Thank you both. I appreciate it you guys. Dan Runcie  30:56 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Music NFTs are all the rage as of late. Entering the mix is Young M.A, who dropped a capsule on April 19. But in true Young M.A fashion, she took a different approach to her first-ever NFT project.


For one, each NFT is only $20, making it widely accessible to her diehard fanbase. That’s a departure from most artists-focused NFTs that are on the pricier side due to their limitedness. In total, Young M.A dropped five NFT collections with 250 editions in each — for a total of 1,250. Each of the five collections represents key moments in Young M.A’s career. From first going viral with her Brooklyn Chiraq freestyle to the smashing success of “OOOUUU” and other highlights. 


Moreover, the capsule is exclusive to new NFT marketplace Serenade. The platform prides itself on being eco-friendly in an industry widely criticized for its energy consumption. 


The NFT collection is just one way Young M.A is staying connected to her fans these days. She’s also on tour and has continued to invest in non-music products like her adult toy line. Here’s everything we covered in this episode:


[0:00] Seeing where things go

[2:45] Purpose Behind Young M.A’s NFT Drop

[9:29] Surprising Price Point For Young M.A’s NFT Capsule

[10:14] Young M.A Has Hesitations About The Drop (Honest Talk) 

[12:32] Prioritizing Long-Term Impact With Business Ventures

[12:55] Young M.A’s Relationship With Fame

[15:37] How Young M.A Approaches Non-Music Business Ventures

[20:10] Partnering With Serenade For The NFT Drop

[23:22] Keeping Up With Web 3.0 & Music Industry 

[28:00] Young M.A Understands Her Place In The Industry



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Young M.A, @youngma, serenade.co/@youngma

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.


Transcript

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Young M.A  00:00

When it comes to business, you might not always know. You can't always say you know people. Even if you research them, no matter what the situation is, sometimes things might not work for you. You know what I mean? So you just look more to it. And you see how it goes as it goes. I mean, seeing business situations I handled in the past, some things didn't go right. Some things went right, you know, and it's just like with them. I feel good, you know? And it was like, let's go, let's see where it goes. Let's take these events and take risks. 


Dan Runcie  00:31

Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  Today's guest is Young M.A. You may know her for her hits like BROOKLYN (Chiraq), OOOUUU, and plenty others that helped her go six times platinum. I knew this was going to be a good interview because, the moment that I logged on to the chat, Young M.A was already in there. And her first words were "took you long enough." And that's what I knew that we're in for a good one. Young M.A came on the Trapital podcast because she just had an NF T drop for her latest single Aye Day Pay Day. And she did it as a series of stories throughout her career. And she launched her NFTs different than most artists do. As I've written and talked about on this podcast, people have looked at NFTs as a way to monetize and make a lot of money from being able to sell high-end products as collectibles. But Young M.A is going about in a different way. She only has 250 drops for each of the five NFTs in this collection. And she's only selling them for $20. That's it. So we talked about the decision, how she's approached this, and why she made the decision that she has. And I think a lot of this ties into her mentality. As an artist, Young M.A is one of the more strong proponents of being an independent artist and what that means. And we talked about how this relates to how she looks at record labels and a lot of the deals that she's turned down. And we also talked about some of      Young M.A's investments too. She's invested in a bunch of different areas. So we talked about that. We also talked about some of the other trends happening in this music industry, how she keeps up with everything, how her team is structured, and a whole lot more. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did. 


Here's my chat with Young M.A. All right, today, we're joined by the one and only Young M.A, who has a big drop for us today. She is launching an NFT. And I'm excited and I want to hear more. So break it down. Why was now the time for you to make this drop happen?


Young M.A  02:45

I see. You know, I'm the same person. I don't, I don't talk all that extra “Aaah.”  I keep it real. The big one since A1.  You know what I mean? I honestly didn't know too much about it, you know what I mean? I used to see it every now and then. And I didn't understand what it was because I'm the type of person like, like, if it don't make sense to me at the moment of me seeing it, I'm just not going to pay attention. I don't see interest into things that everybody else see interesting, too, you know what I mean? So that was literally the case. But I didn't see it casually and then once my team brought it to my attention, it was like, oh, okay, I know what you're talking about, you know what I mean? Like, I've seen, so I'm guessing this is like the new way of things, new wave of things, or whatever. So focusing my attention, you know, just basically gave me the intellect of it, the background of it, detail and everything like that. Somehow, Okay, okay, no, still not understanding it too much. But you know, kind of intrigued into it. And they kind of like broke it down. So I was like, Yo, give me a little more like pinpoint, because like, I do want to understand this situation, because it'd be something that's going to be longevity, and something's that's gonna help, you know, long term future-wise. And it's like, one of the new way that's coming in, you know, why not, you know, at least, you know, check it out. So we talked more about it, had a meeting, and, and we came up with kind of like I did. So once they broke down the ideas to me of like, what's, like, the meaning of it. And also like, what I would do if I do it. And then it become a more of understanding that was like, Okay, now I can go, you know what I mean? It's not just like, like anything we ever did before. Like, it's not like, it's, like, we did but like more digital, you know what I mean? It's like what we did but digital, in a different sense. So I'm like, okay, I get it now. So once I got that understanding, there's like, I got more intrigued, and I was like, let's go. You know, I'm the type of person, like, I'd take risks. I don't believe in like, No, I gotta, I gotta be the see it to believe it type person, like, I got to see. You know, even if I got to take that risk. I had taken risk all my life, so now I was like, I want to take this risk of, a new risk of taking risk. Let's take this risk. So we got to to it on, whatever the case, got involved with a team or whatever. And we came to a point where it was like, alright, if I'm going to do this, you already know my vibe. Not going to do it on nobody else's terms and circumstances and shit like that. Like, I know how it moves. So me understanding that this is how it goes about, let's go into a route where it's going to make, make sense for me. That's always been my, my way of grinding since I came up. Anything that I've ever done always went in a sense of how I had to do, so on and, you know, still be independent, of course. So we came up with this, all my team came up with this plan of like just creating like a timeline of, like, when I first started. Literally from the ground up, like... I wouldn't say the ground up because literally I started from the ground like, like, probably like 19 years old. For like far as like when social media and stuff like that really came into play as far as music, we wanted to start from there and we started from like my first freestyling, like, went viral, BROOKLYN (Chiraq Freestyle), you know what I mean?  When Facebook was like one of the hottest things ever, at the time, like Instagram was still hot. Cool. Instagram was hot but like, Facebook was one of the places where you want to go viral before you went viral on Instagram. Before... I came from them. I mean, SoundCloud, before there was SoundCloud rappers, I was on SoundCloud, you know what I mean? So like, we really wanted to bring that world into, like, just my supporters and my fan base. So it's really not too much about trying to sell this. It's more so about trying to give back to my supporters. In a way now that I understand that NF T is a way of them making money by just putting one investment into me, after like years of investment you will put into me, this is your way of making money, just like that? Come on, man. You know, I mean, like of course, I'm gonna jump into that. But of course, I still need to know more detail into it or whatever the case. So as time goes on, we come up with the details, we like, let's pinpoint the biggest times on your career. Chiraq Freestyle go viral. Boom. Years later, everybody knows, a lot of being on all these like big radio stations. Hot 97. after that and we went viral. On this... She started doing shows in Connecticut and Tri-state areas. You know what I mean? Like, I'm starting to do these type of things. Now my come up is coming up. Now OOOUUU come out, boom, because they like we need a club record. Boom, come with them. Exactly. I gotcha, you know what I mean? Like boom, OOOUUU, come out. Now that's became the biggest break now. Now, I'm crossing other into the industry. Another, you know, milestone in my career. We go from that, boom. And now we go into Petty Wap. It is a lot. So like, that's basically the timeline. Like there's so much that I did in between each time that could really count. But it's like, when you pinpoint, like, literally, like, the bowstones of everything. So like, that's what the NFT is really about, it was creating and like, like, you know, the longevity and what could create from each individual situation that you might not never know, that might develop as you go, you know what I mean? So that's what I feel like my NFT should be about. I don't know what everybody else is doing and shit about. Like, I heard about the research, I heard about, you know, people's, like, unreleased stuff. Of course, like I do unreleased music, or unreleased merch or unreleased things and shit like that. Of course, you get the exclusive. But to me, like, my NFTs, they have to, like gravitate to something close to me. It made my supporters understand that it's still me. It's not about just, yeah, having new stuff that nobody got. No, it's still connecting with you all. At the end of the day, I look at this. I don't know, I don't look at this for money. Like, I don't know, I don't know where people mine that or whatever. As humans, whatever the case, and they only be... But like me, as a artists. I always had this mindset. I treat my supporters as my family, for, like, this my way of, like, giving back. It's like me getting a platinum plaque. And seeing that I went platinum again. Like just, like it just, like I feel so good about just having that platinum plaque as another accomplishment. There's no one that I'm doing what I'm doing. So like for them to have something valuable, 250 out of millions, billions, and trillions of people in this world. You got that? Like, that's what matters to me. I don't know about that money stuff, bro. Okay, so that's what I'm trying to say.


Dan Runcie  08:51

Yeah. Was it tough to limit the amount because it's only 250 people for each of the drops, and you got a lot of...


Young M.A  08:52

Exactly. 


Dan Runcie  08:54

...Young M.A fans out there. Was it tough to limit it?


Young M.A  08:59

Yeah, that's basically the case. Like, I'm still trying to figure it out. Like once it dropped and I see like how things go about, I just want to see the reaction. Like, I'm not even looking into like, like, I know the money aspects of things. And if you want to talk money, but, like, my benefit from it is more so like seeing what they value from it, you know what I mean? Like...


Dan Runcie  09:20

Yeah, let's talk the money piece of it first, just to get that out of the way. So you got 250 of volume. And of course, the goal is to sell out, how much are they? And are they different prices for each of the five different ones? 


Young M.A  09:29

No, they're $20. 


Dan Runcie  09:31

And see that's important because I think most people that do drops like this, if you only have a limited amount, they think it's going to be thousands of dollars, right? But you're like, so essentially it's like a first come first whoever gets it first, right? 


Young M.A  09:42

Yeah, $20, $20. I feel like, you know, like my supporters.  If you could buy merch, I mean my merch is more $20, oh there you go. If my merch is, like, more than $20, or you could buy a ticket to come see me, my whole package, meet and greets, all that, it should be like a bucket of change. If you can spend $20 just have an NFT of me and make money off it, like, I don't know what to say, you know, like, I'm not a...  I just feel like, you know, like, we take risks, we take risks.


Dan Runcie  10:08

Do you feel like this was a big risk for you though? Because I feel like it's a slam dunk. I mean, you know that you got the fans that are going to want it. 


Young M.A  10:14

Yeah, I mean, I don't look at it like a slam dunk, though. I don't know why. And that's just me being honest. I don't know why, like, I don't know, if it's just not in my heart to like, I don't really look at money value. I don't know. There's just something, I don't know. It's just something in my heart that just never been that person. Like, of course, I'm going to make money. Yes, I had to make money to survive. But my intent into going into things be more deeper than people ever think. Like, I really think deeper into things, like I have to understand. Because if I don't understand something 100%, like, what this NFT, I'm gonna keep it G. I don't know 100% about it. I do know enough. But I don't know 100%. And when I don't know, 100%+, about something. I'm not going to never put my trust into it. 100%. I'm going put my trust into how much I understand. So my trust is how much I understand per say, right? You know what I mean? And I just want to see how my supporters feel and what's gonna make them happy. If it ain't making them happy, I want to do it. And that's real, bro.


Dan Runcie  11:13

Oh, yeah. And I think the good thing with it, too, you have other exclusive perks lined up. If someone collects all five of them, then you invite them to certain things, and you know fans are always going to appreciate that. And I feel like this also taps into how you run your game in the industry from since you've been in this, you know, because you were always more about longevity. You were always more about the money. That is how you approach any deal that came through or you weren't trying to approach it with a bag. It wasn't about the bag, it had to be more than that.


Young M.A  11:42

Yeah, I had to always be more. I've been sitting in so many record labels... I fell asleep in one, I ain't going to say which label. I'm not going to say which one. But I literally lay my head on the table because they just said everything everybody else said and I don't have none of these labels. I don't. I just felt like it just wasn't, it wasn't in my league. You know what I mean? So I didn't want to tap into, some certain people I didn't want to sign to. I just felt like independent was my best move, because I just understood me. Like it was just more so, like. the industry wasn't about money to me. It wasn't about that. It was more so about understanding me as an artist, and how I express myself, and who I am. You all don't know me. You all don't know. You don't know. So you all can't tell me, which I can do for me. All you have to tell me what it is I can do for y'all that will do for me. But it won't do for me. 


Dan Runcie  12:31

Right.


Young M.A  12:32

You know what I'm saying? So like, I'd rather move slow-paced than fast-paced. Just to get a quick dollar? No, like, like, I love the position I'm it. Like, I don't like that fast life. I don't even like the fame. I don't. I just love my supporters. I love when I go on stage. I love when I got to handle my business, when I got to handle my business. You know what I mean? And just like, just enjoying life, as long as my family's taken care of. That's all I care about, like all that fast-paced stuff and all that stuff like that. Like, I don't need it. It's fun when it's fun, like I can have those moments. I can go on a boat. I'm going on a yacht. I can drive a fast car. I can drive them... And it's just like, Okay, now like, I'm going to... I go to club, I can go...


Dan Runcie  13:11

Let's talk about relationship with fame. Because I feel like that's an interesting point, right? Like you would have the moment after, what is, Chiraq Freestyle or even after OOOUUU when things blew up. Now you're a few years past that. Do you feel like, the way things are right now, you're in a pretty good spot where, you know, I feel like the level of fame I have is in line with where I am comfortable, or do you still feel like no, no, I wish I was less famous than this.


Young M.A  13:37

No, actually, I think I'm in a comfortable spot. Because even when sometimes, like now, like I noticed, like, of course, I get bored. You know, sometimes you get bored. You know, that's just normal human being stuff. But you'll get bored. So you want to go out. And then sometimes I'll go out. And they'd be like, like, this is so normal. Like, I just be seeing guys. It's just everybody just acting... Like, man, been there, done that. And it's just like, so, it's just so common. It's like sometimes, like it'd be certain moments that feel good. It's like, this is the time to celebrate, like it's like accomplishment to me now more so than just going out for fun, like random and stuff like that. You know what I mean? Now it was more so like if we go out we have a good time, it's because we just, we just, you know, dropped the check or something. You know what I mean? Are we just invested in something, you know, we just got this or we got that. Like that celebration to me more is now more of a celebration and more fun to me now. All of just like randomly going out stuff to me is like. it's cool, but it's like, it's not as exciting. And I'm going to say that and that's just me being honest. Like, I can say it's me getting older but I can just say it's really me just probably, it's just, something that I always had in me. Like, even when I used to, like go out when the phase first happened, with OOOUUU and all that. It was fun, but I still wasn't like dramatic about it. Like I was never like that, Oh yeah, I'm happy to be in clubs, like, it was just like enjoying the moment I guess. Like, it was like one of the... Cool, cool, but I still wasn't like extra, like, I never got in trouble. I never went, you know what I mean? I never went crazy. You know, I still kept my composure even when having that much success and fame at the very moment. So like, even now that I've been there, done that, it's like, I'd be looking around at people and I'll just be like, damn, I understand. But like, to me, like, it's like, I can leave right now and be okay. You know? And that's where my mind and like, I'm automatically thinking like, damn, so tomorrow, I need to figure out, like, what next business move... And that's really when my mind be like, all day running like that. And that's just really how I be like.


Dan Runcie  15:37

Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Yeah, I feel like with you especially, you mentioned the investment piece. What does that piece of your business look like? What are some of the investment opportunities you've looked at? And how do you evaluate them?


Young M.A  15:38

Well, I can't tell you too much. So I'm going to shhh on that. But what I am, into I'm not going to tell you what I'm...


Dan Runcie  15:55

You're going to give us something public though?


Young M.A  15:57

So right now I got the, of course, the NFT and then I got the sex toy line that a lot of people, I mean, they aware of it but like, you know, just to get more aware in, you know, when we have these interviews. I have a sex toy line being that people want to talk about my strap, like I use things to my advantage. That just makes sense. Like, you got to talk about me, you're going to walk about me, you know what I mean? So like, I got the sex toy line that I originally created in collab with Doc Johnson, which is a big sex company located, like, based in LA, or whatever the case and, like, they just known, like, everywhere, like, they're literally like a big ass company. And we had like a meeting, went probably like three years ago. And we locked out with them and I came up with this own, my own sex toy line called Play Nyce, called Play Nyce. N-Y-C, so N-Y-C-E, so that's Play Nyce with a Y. That's why... With a Y. I just placed everything in one and NYC. I always do that. Like, even with my chains like this is Young M.A but it looked like the Loki symbol. You know, I always put anything when it comes to, like, where I'm from, what I'm based on, everything, just as long as it what makes sense. But like, yeah, we came up with that. So like, it's like a whole starter kit of sex toys and like, you know, strap-ons, and stuff like that. And even cleaning your strap-ons or whatever. So when they can't, you know, get pleased by whoever they want to get pleased by, they please they self. And then I also got the vibrators as well, because a lot of women are using vibrators now, and that's also by Play Nyce but it's called Power Play. Because there's a lot of power and it plays with that... And that's just, you know what I'm saying? And you know, I got a lot of, like, lot of positive comments back from that Power Play right there. And a lot of women use vibrators. And it's, like, so many different styles, they've been telling me about. So I've been doing my research and trying to get to it. So like, I just started off with that. So I'm gonna get more in tune with that, because that's literally like, a way for women, and I love women. So that's always going to work for me. So I'm definitely locking in with that, like, continuously. So that's just been in the works on that. So my website is shopyoungma. Everything is on shopyoungma.com. And then I got the PSD collaboration as well with my boxers. So we got like different, like, styles of boxers. like women's booty short-type boxers, and they got the men's boxers. Well, briefs, boxer briefs, like locked and tight. And then they got the women's sports bras. We actually got like all my designs and stuff like that. So we've been locked in with PTSD so make sure you all check that out as well. So it's basically underwear. And also Nyak. Nyak is my liquor brand that I've been associated with. They also had their own company, but they brought me a part of it with my own VSOP bottle. So I get my benefits from my actual own bottle which is all red. This is brown, is a brown label, is called Nyak, N-Y-A-K, you know what I mean? And mine's an all-red bottle, same thing, Nyak. But my actual, like, logo was on the bottle so you know it's mine, it's all red. And so I've been like, you know what I mean, doing little entrepreneur stuff, and then we got more stuff too, but you know, I'm just going keep quiet and not tell you.


Dan Runcie  19:02

No, I hear that. Well, I appreciate you sharing those though. And the sex toys and the adult toys in general. I feel like that lines up with some of the stuff you've done before. I know you've directed adult films before so I feel like you've been in this space.


Young M.A  19:16

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And that's why it was perfect to actually release that because it wasn't coming from left field, you know what I mean, when that first came out. It was like a lot of people was like oh... Like, Young M.A on porn? So that literally became like a token discussion or whatever, so then it was like perfect timing because it's like, so now you're all talking about this, I see you're always talking about my strap, I was like, let's bridge the gap. There you go. So now I'm making money from you all. Hello. From not even from just y'all, from the people that... You know what I mean, like girl, or a man, I don't even care. It don't matter.


Dan Runcie  19:51

Yeah, so I feel like that lines up, too, and even back to the first piece. I know you've got the partnership here with Serenade for the NFT drop itself and... what does that relationship like? And I guess, first, what was it that made you want to partner with them on this? And then what does the relationship look like with them moving forward?


Young M.A  20:10

I ain't going to lie... I believe they didn't know too much about, you know what I mean? Like, I just know, once, you know, I really got the confirmation that they was, you know, more so equal, friendly, equal, friendly more than anything, and that's a big plus, in itself. Why do we want to establish more of a relationship with them? You know what I mean, after this NFT drop, and that's what kind of what we've been planning. You know what I mean? Like, I'm more so like an observant person, like, once I meet you, I understand. He was like, okay, cool. So once I met them, and it's like, okay, you know what I mean, we can move forward. If things don't go right then things don't go, right. That's just in the business. And so you know, what I mean, I'm not giving nobody the highest benefits of anything, you know, I'm not saying this person is so, so good. No, but they definitely good people to work with. And it's different discussions, different people. And I decided, you known what I mean, just to see where it go. Like we said, we'll take risks in life, see where it goes, I don't think they bad people. We're going to see where it goes. I'm still learning about this NFT more and more, and I just want to see where it goes. And that's was just pretty much that, you know what I mean? Too much to go into detail but I appreciate them for even giving me the opportunity. You know what I mean? They definitely looked out a lot, you know what I mean? a lot. And I could tell they have a lot of hustle and motivation to put forward into my NFT. So that's one of the reasons to as to why we work with them. Because I really feel like intuition with certain people and just having to understand, like, when it comes to business, you might not always know. You can't always say you know people. Even if you research them, no matter what the situation is, sometimes things might not work for you. You know what I mean? So you just look more to it. And you see how it go as it goes. I mean, seeing business situations I handled in the past, some things didn't go right. Some things went right, you know, and it's just like with them. I feel good, you know? And it was like, let's go, let's see where it goes. Let's take these events and take risks. 


Dan Runcie  21:52

Yeah, it makes me think of two things. One, with Serenade, their eco-friendly pitch stuck out to me, too, just because a lot of people don't talk about how much energy is burned when people are either making NFTs or doing things related to gas fees, or any of this stuff like, it's a lot. Well, I'm glad that they're pushing that piece of it. And then, two, what I like about this for you, as well, is I've seen a lot of these times where new platforms or newer platforms will pitch themselves to a popular artist that has a fan base and then if they're able to grow with it, then that obviously attracts more and more artists, and then the artist gets a bit of that influence sort of help push this and they become, in many ways, one of the faces to push that brand through, especially if things continue to grow.


Young M.A  22:36

Right. Exactly. So like it's just understandable. Like, some, some, some people, you know, you got to get it like, that's why I said, like, I'm learning more about this, this, this, this whole company, this whole NFT thing, this whole new dispersion of just this new, new elevation of life, you know, and the evolution of life. And that's what I'm getting at. And I just want people to just... I want people to put the same kind of risk into and just had that understanding and learn more because like it's going... no matter what we do. We know we want to be so old school as much as possible. We're like, you know, you can still hold on to that like, Oh, no to the... But like, you still got to make sure you had...


Dan Runcie  23:15

Right. How do you keep up with all of it? I mean, every week, I feel like there's something new happening with Web 3.0 or that Metaverse.


Young M.A  23:22

Right, me too. I feel like... I feel like damn, wait, what's this right here? Like, I ain't going to lie, like, I ain't going to lie. It is hard to keep up with. I mean, I'm getting it, you know. I feel like I don't got to force it, too? You know, I don't always feel like I have to force it. Like, I'm the type of person, I will catch up with yo ass. I'm not running around, laps around, you know what I mean? Like, if you're already ahead, I'm like, alright, alright. I'm observing. I'm like that turtle, you know what I mean? Chasing the rabbit? 


Dan Runcie  23:50

Yep. Yep. 


Young M.A  23:51

You know, I mean, yeah, so...


Dan Runcie  23:53

Yeah, that's the thing. We're still in the early days with this, too. I think that's what people forget, I get it. Everyone wants to jump at the newest thing of the opportunity that's there. But we're still figuring a lot out about how so much of this is gonna shake out. And I feel like the way you're doing it is right. It's not like you're saying, No, I don't fully understand. But alright, if I get this enough to at least test this out, no different than a startup, just put it at initial product. Let's see how this works. All right. And we learned and then we continue to tweak.


Young M.A  24:22

Exactly, you know what I mean? You just learn as you go. That's how I look at life, you learn as you go. I mean, some things may not work for you, something will. You never know. Like, even if it don't, it may be something that makes you do something that changed something. You know what I mean? You might retreat something. You don't know where this is going to lead you. Everybody could be entrepreneurs. Anybody could just be what they could be, you know what I mean?  And that's just way of...


Dan Runcie  24:44

Yeah, for sure. 


Young M.A  24:45

Yeah.


Dan Runcie  24:45

If anything, now, there's probably getting even more, with people reaching out about different opportunities. It's like you're picking your spots, right? And kind of with how you structured your career, I bet that you say no a lot, even if it's outside of the record labels or anyone else, just because there's only so much that you want to focus on. And there's only so much that you can do. So if you're saying yes to something that means it's definitely crossed at some level where it's like, no, this is worth our time. And we think that this is worth the potential benefit of what it could do for our fans and for us.


Young M.A  25:17

Yeah, me and my team, we family. You know what I mean? They consider me like a boss, but I don't consider that. I just consider us all, you know, just everybody working in this spots, in place, of course, I'm the yay or the nay... I mean, if I want to do it, I won't do it. If I want to do it, I'm going to do it. And there's that. But other than that, like that's what I said, I don't, I don't need a hundred people... As long as I got the right people and the right positions. That's all. That's all about relationships, man. It's all about relationships, whatever relationship you decide to, you know, what I mean, you keep or whatever you feel like is right for you, go about that. Other than that, like, I always know, like, I will avoid certain things. People look at something like glamor... and think that's just it all the time because they want to keep a certain relationship. But like, I don't think nothing's wrong with it. Don't get me wrong, but like, I don't have the kiss nobody else. Like, it ain't that I don't want to I'm not just a mean person, just like, I still always stand like firm to my ground. Like, I always stand firm to like, certain things, I believe in certain things on this day. When I see through somebody and I see bullshit, I will literally like just leave you alone, like there's no talking about that. And I don't have to go against you. I don't have to be mad, or will be angry. I got to be aggressive? No, Just like... And we go about our business. And it's just about that, you know what I mean? Like, I see when one person act towards this person this certain way and this person acts towards this person a certain way. I see those type of vibes. And when I see those type of vibes, I just don't look at you genuinely. You know what I mean? So, I know when somebody... And that's how I move with you, I move with you the same way you're probably moving. And that's just that, you know I mean? That's how I just, you know what I mean, like, I just understand this game and all that that's why I don't really play too much part into things like, I got a lot of people associated with in this industry that a lot of friends and then they got people that... but that's just a game. And I understood that a long time ago.


Dan Runcie  27:02

Right. And I feel like with how you’ve built this, what it ties back to you for me is you have a very clear understanding of who you are and what you want out of this game. And because of that, it helps you make better decisions and helps you not have that fear of missing out that other people do and you can be like No, like we're focused on what we're doing. And I think that's what hurts so many artists because so many artists get frustrated that they're not doing what that 1% of people are doing, they're not doing that thing and I think that mentality can all always just set you up for not feeling fulfilled or not feeling like you're doing enough. But you were able to have a pretty even perspective with that. Do you feel like you always had that? Or do you feel like that's something that you just became better with navigating over your career?


Young M.A  27:48

No, I always had that. Because if I didn't, I would have been so.


Dan Runcie  27:51

Yeah, yeah. Well, the thing is, though, you did say that there were times where you did go back and forth and you at least considered whether you should or not, right?


Young M.A  28:00

No, I had meeting yes, I have meetings of course. I had meetings. I wasn't, it wasn't that I wasn't I never going to give nobody a chance. I wasn't like... that's what I'm trying to say. I'm not against it. I'm not against it. I'm never against nothing. I've never against nothing. It's just like, I give things the actual opportunity. I'm a type of person, like, if I know for sure, for sure that it is not right, then, of course, it's clear. I already know. Because I know, because I know. But other than that, if I don't know, and I'm like, alright, let me just, at least, even if I have an intuition, I'm going to still go try. And if I'm right, then I'm right. If I'm wrong then damn, you know what I mean? Change my mind, you know, and I go from there. Like, that's just how I look at it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not against nothing. I'm never against nothing. It's just more so like, I want nobody to feel like I'm like, against, like, what people will do or how they do it, or... Anybody can do how they want to do what they want to do when they want to do. Me, I'm just the type of person where I observe, you know what I mean? I go about it how I go about it. I want nobody to feel like I'm like, this person where I'm just happy-go-lucky, then. You know what I mean? You feel like, oh, yeah, we got to have it. Because that's how people come into it. Like these little young boys, young kids. They're so happy to have opportunity but they don't read between the lines, you know what I mean? And that's what it means. And I mean, always you have a lawyer and always you had somebody, a guardian beside you, you know, always you have somebody to understand, or you might have been people, enough people might just be really just trying to take advantage of you the whole time. You know what I mean? So like, I just don't trust nothing. Even if next to me, you won't don't got to be across the table. You could be next to me and I still don't... So like, that's just how I've always have moved, like, I always move like make sure I'll protect me. You know what I mean? Like, you can say you're for me. I will hear that. But I mean, I got to believe, right?


Dan Runcie  29:46

No, that's real. That's not real. And I mean, I appreciate you for sharing the insights here. I feel like a lot of people have looked up to you and appreciated how you run your career and I feel like this drop, this NFT job specifically, it's just that next evolution that ties back to everything you've been doing, so before we let you go, is there anything else you want to plug or you want to let the Trapital audience to know about?


Young M.A  30:06

Yeah, just know we're going on tour, man. April 23. We're in VA, Portsmouth, VA. . Portsmouth Virginia. It's at the 420ish, it's called the 420ish Festival. Make sure you have... that's where you start. And then I think we're in Cincinnati after that. 26 and then 27, I think the tour will be in Mesa, so we'll be able to on tour for a month. Off The Yak tour. Yeah, so that's pretty much, NFT about to drop. New music be here soon, I can't, I don't really know if we should. I'm going throw that in the air real quick...


Dan Runcie  30:37

Yeah. Because I was gonna say I thought you got a song lined up with the NFT drop, right?


Young M.A  30:39

Oh, yeah. Aye Day Pay Day. 


Dan Runcie  30:40

Yeah.


Young M.A  30:40

Aye Day Pay Day. That's right, Aye Day Pay Day, y'all. Aye Day Pay Day.


Dan Runcie  30:46

I know, I was gonna say we can't let the interview cut if you don't mention the song. But Young M.A, this is great. I appreciate you coming on.


Young M.A  30:52

Thank you both. I appreciate it you guys.


Dan Runcie  30:56

If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.



]]> 1891 no How Fanbase Raised $6 Million Without VC with Isaac Hayes III https://www.trapital.com/podcast In less than three years, the Fanbase social content app has raised six million dollars (without traditional venture capital) and is inching toward the one-million user mark. How did co-founder Issac Hayes III take the app from nothing all the way to this? If you ask him, his life spent in the cut-throat music industry gave him the inspiration AND business chops to thrive within the tech space.  As the son of legendary R&B artist Isaac Hayes, he was made well aware from the get-go of the exploitative practices by record labels toward musicians. Isaac would go on to notice similar exploitation with social media giants and their users, who were creating content and driving attention, but reaping little of the billions of dollars in revenues being reported by the same corporations. Fanbase is changing those optics. On the app, users can post content — written, photo, video, audio chat, and live stream — for a subscription fee. As Isaac sees it, “monetization for every user is the wave of the future.” For a full glimpse of how Isaac is building Fanbase into a disruptive social media force, you’ll want to tune into our interview. Here’s what we covered in the episode: [4:10] Fanbase Raised $6 Million From Crowdfunding — Not Venture Capital [6:34] The Most Important Investors Of Fanbase  [8:10] Making Investing More Accessible [10:30] How Fanbase Is Acquiring New Customers [11:59] Fanbase’s Biggest Business Advantage (Not What You Think) [14:13] “Monetization For Every User Is The Wave Of The Future” [16:18] Why Artists Shouldn’t Sell Their Catalogs [22:23] What Isaac Loves About Technology [23:40] What Does Fanbase’s Future Fundraising Timeline Look Like? [26:38] Size Of Fanbase’s Team Now & In Near-Future [27:51] Atlanta’s Underrated Scene Outside Hip-Hp [30:39] Isaac’s Influence For Creating Fanbase [32:34] Getting The Music Rights Back For His Dad [33:48] Keeping Black Icons Relevant Post-Death [36:14] Will There Ever Be An Isaac Hayes Movie? [41:45] Fanbase’s New Features Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Isaac Hayes III, @isaachayes3    Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  _______________ Transcription Isaac Hayes III 00:00 I think monetization for every user is the wave of the future. I keep saying it, I think that there isn't a person right now that isn't subscribed to at least one thing. And one subscription becomes more and more the common vernacular of how we engage with content. Social media is the last, you know, frontier that's left. You know, when you think about TV and film with Hulu, and Netflix, and Disney+, and music with Spotify and Apple Music, and print media with Forbes, and The New York Times, and Billboard, and then productivity software like Adobe Premiere Pro, Microsoft Word. Like, you don't... You're subscribed to something. You're probably subscribed to an app on your phone that allows you to edit your photos. And so subscriptions are just the language. And so I think that's going to be the language of the future moving forward. Dan Runcie 00:53 Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's guest is Isaac Hayes III. He's the founder and CEO of Fanbase. Fanbase is a company that helps creators better monetize the content they put out. And on Fanbase's platform, followers can subscribe for $3.99 a month to get all of the exclusive content from their favorite creators, or they can follow creators and they can spread love. Love is the primary form of engagement on Fanbase, and it's how creators monetize. The more likes and love they get, the more revenue that they get into their pockets. So Fanbase addresses a lot of the challenges that people have had about social media more broadly. And in this chat, Isaac and I talk about what the journey has been like. He's been able to raise $6 million through crowdfunding. He did it through this platform called StartEngine, and he's had many well-known investors on board, folks like Snoop Dogg, Charlamagne The God, Kandi Burruss, Chamillionaire, Roland Martin, and more. So we talked about his decision to go that path as opposed to the traditional VC route. Isaac and I also talked about the trend of music publishing and the catalog sales that have been happening, and why he actually thinks that a lot of musicians should not be selling their catalogs. He is not the only person to say this, but these voices have been a little bit quieter in this narrative. So it was great to hear his perspective on this. And then we also talked about the other hat that Isaac wears. He is the manager of his late father's estate. His father is the legendary singer, Isaac Hayes. So we talked about what that experience has been like managing the estate, and how his father's experience in the music industry had formed a lot of the work that Isaac Hayes III himself wants to create and the opportunities he wants to do through Fanbase. We also talked about what an Isaac Hayes biopic would look like, and who Isaac Hayes III would want to play his father in a movie. I think he had a pretty good answer. I'm a big fan of this person. So I think you'll enjoy who we said. We also talked about Atlanta's impact, and just how influential that city has been in culture and for Fanbase as well, we had a great conversation, and I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. Here's my chat with Isaac Hayes III. All right, today, we got Isaac Hayes III with us. He's the co-founder and CEO of Fanbase, an app that helps creators monetize the content that they put out into the world and get what's there. So Isaac, thank you for joining. And it'd be great to just hear from you how things were going with you and how things been going with Fanbase. What's the latest been? Isaac Hayes III 03:46 Man, we just closed our second seed round of $2.6 million on StartEngine. So we've raised a total of $6 million in less than a year. It's been phenomenal. We're adding a lot of amazing functionality to Fanbase. And new features are rolling out in the next couple of weeks, a new version of audio, which is one of our flagship features on the platform that's monetized for all users. So it's an exciting time at Fanbase. Dan Runcie 04:10 Can you talk to me about your fundraising process a bit because I know that you crowdfunded the 6 billion. You were able to do it at a few different stages. But what made you go that route, as opposed to the more traditional venture capital fundraising? Isaac Hayes III 04:25 Two things: one was just a recommendation by a really good mentor of mine to do so. And it was in COVID, because, you know, we couldn't move. And I had a real kind of like off-putting conversation with a VC. And it immediately reminded me of the music business. And so in my mind, I immediately thought, okay, these seeds are like the label. And I'm like an artist trying to get a record deal. And so starting to gave me the opportunity to go independent, and sell my shares out of the trunk of my car to the tune of $6 million, which gives us better leverage, and lets people know that we don't need venture capital to raise serious cash. And so that's really how it, you know, wind up that being that way. Dan Runcie 05:06 Yeah, I heard the comparisons from a lot of people. And I think that the thing you often hear from folks that do crowdfund is that it can take a lot of time to get there. But at least from what I've seen from your process, you were able to get several thousand investors in a pretty short amount of time. So what were the steps from that perspective to keep the momentum hot, and to make sure that you had a strong pipeline? Isaac Hayes III 05:29 I think the best thing is, when you're, I think the biggest benefit was the fact that it's a product that the investors can actually use in real time. So it's not like they're giving to something, and they're investing in something and not knowing what the product will be or what it does. They're a part of it in real time. And it's something that's relatable to them. If I go and invest in a tech startup that does something to do with aerospace engines, cool, when I'm not with it every day. I just sit back and hope that they make the best decision possible with my investment. But Fanbase is something that I think is more personal to people because of where we are social media. So I think that gave it a lot of energy, because people are a part of the process, and they feel part of the platform and part of this journey together in real time. So it's something that you can use, you know, and then who better, I got to say, to give actual equity in a social media startup into the users themselves that will actually make the platform grow.  Dan Runcie 06:20 And I think you're able to find some influential folks with that too, right? You got Kandi Burruss, you got Charlamagne. And of course with their platforms, they're able to help amplify and can connect you with other investors or just other creators, given what they've done. Isaac Hayes III 06:34 Yeah, but we honestly haven't used them in that fashion. And I actually don't typically want them or to do that particularly yet. And the reason being is because I like the fact that they are silent in their action, because a lot of times when people of notoriety step out in a space where they're invested in a platform and may turn other people off, that feel like well, I didn't get that opportunity. And in social media, it's more about the users. The most important investors on Fanbase, and we have some really big, big name investors, the most important investors on Fanbase are the actual users, the larger, broader, probably a sea of 8000 plus individuals that have put their money in and actually use the platform on a day-today basis, who will be those day-to-day, you know, hardcore super users. But relationships and those investors that are of a high stature like a Snoop Dogg and stuff like that, their time will come later. They all, I know, they all know exactly when they're going to get on and when they're going to turn the engine up on the platform. So we're just, you know, we're focused on the core audience and the core investors of the platform being what we really focus on at Fanbase. Dan Runcie 07:41 And with 8000 investors, you mentioned $6 million raised, it makes it pretty affordable to, you know, for people to be able to have a stake, because I think that's one of the challenges that you often see from institutional money that comes through or some of the minimum buy-ins for some investments is that it isn't always the most accessible for folks that may be interested. So I think you're able to at least allow that to happen given the amount of people that were able to invest for the total amount you have. Isaac Hayes III 08:10 Absolutely, I mean, the accredited investor rule has kind of been a barrier for all people, you know. I don't care what race you are, if it's a law that's been in effect since 1933, it's just only given opportunities to rich people to actually invest in early stage companies. So you're coming out of the Great Depression, if you ever wonder why none of your family members got a call to invest in IBM, or Microsoft, or Apple, or Facebook, and so on and so forth. It's this accredited investor rule that is given all the best opportunities of wealth to the wealthy. And so I love the fact that Barack Obama and Joe Biden pass the Jobs Act and allow people like myself to go to my peers and the public to actually have the same opportunity that VCs and accredited investors have to get a piece of the American dream by investing the same way that all these other people have been able to do for 83 years. Dan Runcie 09:01 I think we're gonna see the rules continue to break down on that. I know now they have that flexible option where I think if you take the Series 63 or 7 or one of those tests, then you can become accredited. So that's one way to pass the income thresholds. But I feel like even that is probably going to break down at some point. That just feels like where everything is at it. Isaac Hayes III 09:22 It should. I mean, one of the seed investors in Uber, a guy by the name of Oren Michels only invested $5,000 into Uber, but when it IPO in 2019 is 5000 was worth 24 million. And I'm like, well, how come we can go to Vegas and spend $5,000 on the crap table or go buy $5,000 worth of lottery tickets, but I can't invest in Uber. And I think that's the real crime is that, you know, it's okay that if you go blow your money gambling in that fashion, but not gambling in in the fashion of investing your money in a startup like Uber, which wound up being very, very successful, so the rules have to change and platforms like StartEngine are breaking down those barriers. Dan Runcie 9:59 Right, especially when so many other people using it and giving these startups their early validation are the ones that believe and see in the future. So I feel like those dots got to connect eventually. But... Isaac Hayes III 10:10 It will for sure. Dan Runcie 10:11 Going back to Fanbase itself and how things are, I read that you have a goal be able to hit a million users in June. And it would be great to hear what your strategy has been in terms of acquiring customers. What's been the most effective thing that you've done to get more creators and users onto the platform? Isaac Hayes III 10:30 I think the biggest thing is actually just word of mouth, right? It's the quality of the product. And then I think we're in a very unique time, a very opportunistic time for platforms like Fanbase to emerge, because of this transition from users wanting more access to their following, they're getting tired of words like shadowbanning and content suppression and stuff like that. And algorithms are becoming the enemy of the common user on the platform, or even the super user on the platform, because platforms typically are profitable off ad revenue. And so for that to happen, you can't simultaneously provide visibility for every user on the platform, and then run ads at the same time. That's counterproductive to the business model. Because if that's the case, then the people that buy ads would just go to the users themselves and run ads that way. And then you would have no business model. And so Fanbase is just you know, emerging at a time right now that I think the conversation is different. And ad based, ad-based revenue social media platforms are going to continue to change that puts us right, at the right time to continue to grow. So word of mouth. And then timing is just helping us, and then we have an amazing creative advisory board of young people. There's some other strategic partnerships, and I'm really excited to begin working on that, they’re really rooted in community and rooted in the culture of what we want on Fanbase, which is young, centennial people of all races, ages, backgrounds, creating content and monetize. Dan Runcie 11:56 What are some of those partnerships? Anything you can share with us? Isaac Hayes III 11:59 No, because... And the reason why I can't is because they're really savvy in the way there's things that I think, social media startups, I'll say this, like, I think Fanbase has the best advantage to become a social media unicorn by simply being in Atlanta. And what I mean by that is like Atlanta, is the epicenter of black culture in the United States of America. And what we know about Black culture is Black culture is pop culture. And we know about pop culture, pop culture is what drives social media. So therefore, if you're right at the epicenter of where the viral challenge is going to happen, or the newest, funny influencer, or the dance challenge, or the artist is at, being able to have them be part of Fanbase, and part of that community gives us a really big advantage. So some of those partnerships are rooted in culture, and community, and music. I can't announce them or anything, because it's really dope, though, the way that you have an advantage to do so. And I think a lot of the other platforms know that, which is why they kind of try to pivot in and out. And also try to acquire those users from Atlanta, those the talent, they're like, oh, let's pay them. Let's try to get them, you know, in the same way, but I think Fanbase just has a little bit more of an advantage. Dan Runcie 13:09 I hear that and thinking, too, about making sure that the talent gets paid fairly. I think that's been the underlying theme for so much of why you wanted to create this. There have been so many people that we've seen have become viral sensations, or creators who have a strong following, but being able to really tap into that in a meaningful way hasn't always worked. And in some cases, it's everyone else making money instead of them. I think you would have that story about the ghetto Spider-Man and how the person behind that had blown up, but he's the one calling you like, hey, what do I do? Like, is anything that can help here? And you think about that, and you just think about all of these creators, whether it's folks on TikTok, that are, like the guy that does the hands video, you know, he is, you know, one of the biggest creators, but he isn't anywhere on that Forbes list of the top creators. So I feel like you’ll be able to bridge that connection of, okay, there's clearly a market gap here and how we can have a platform that can close that and how big of an opportunity that is. Isaac Hayes III 14:13 It's an enormous opportunity. I think monetization for every user is the wave of the future. I keep saying it. I think that there isn't a person right now that isn't subscribed to at least one thing. And one subscription becomes more and more the common vernacular of how we engage with content. Social media is the last, you know, frontier that's left. You know, when you think about TV and film with Hulu, and Netflix, and Disney+, and music with Spotify and Apple Music, and print media with Forbes, and The New York Times, and Billboard, and then productivity software like Adobe Premiere Pro, Microsoft Word. Like, you don't... You're subscribed to something. You're probably subscribed to an app on your phone that allows you to edit your photos. And so subscriptions are just the language. And so I think that's going to be the language of the future moving forward. And so I think that's going to be the language of the future moving forward. And it just, it gives everybody a chance to make money as opposed to the people that the apps highlight to be most successful, because they're the best vehicles for ads to run in between their content. Think about that, like the larger audience on, the greater audience of a platform like Tiktok, since there's really only one kind of like channel. It's literally just a platform of short form video. So the wider audience on their demographic on that platform is a white audience just based off of the United States. So therefore, it would behoove them to have bigger white stars to run ads to monetize that larger audience. So that's what they kind of have to focus on. So Fanbase doesn't worry about that. It doesn't matter who you are. Everybody can be a superstar on the platform. Dan Runcie 15:42 Yeah. And that piece about the subscriptions as well, it just, everyone having that and then seeing who can profit off of it. It also makes me think of an exchange you and I had had recently, we're talking about what's happening right now in the music industry and these catalog valuations, too. You had shared perspective that artists actually should not be selling their or publishing their catalogs, because how much room streaming has to grow. And you just look at some of the demographics on that. What's your take on it? And how much bigger do you think this market will get? Isaac Hayes III 16:18 Man, I think it'd be massive. Like I said, at the time, last year was 400, I think it was 450 million people were on music streaming services this year, it's like 525. It's jumped up. That's like, you know, almost like 7 to 9% of all the people with the ability to have streaming services like Apple Music or Spotify on their phone, have them over the next decade by 2030, I think it'll be close to a billion people, so that, that'll be almost a little over double what is available. So imagine and that's only that's only like 1 billion, it's less than a billion, not even a billion people a music streaming services, but there's 6.3 billion people on the planet with smartphones, you know, satellite Wi Fi, satellite internet is going to be something that is going to actually be more connected, as opposed to where wires can go. You know, satellites can go to provide people Internet, and then with video, like, there's like 222 million people on Netflix. And there's 6.3 billion people, the available market share is massive. So I mean, as big as a company is Netflix is, they don't even have, you know, they don't even have 7% of the market of available people that can get on their platform, it's more like three and a half. So think of the growth potential that Netflix can have or anybody that's providing subscriptions via content they can have. That's why we're focused on person-to-person subscription content, which I think will trump everything in the future.  Dan Runcie 17:42 Yeah, it's interesting, because I think there's these two trends happening, because one of the reasons everyone's buying the catalogs is exactly what you said, people see the upside, were streaming's going n the other side, you're also seeing, whether it's Netflix or Spotify, the rapid growth that they may have had once starting to slow down a little bit. So you do think about, yes, you know, a service like Facebook, if we think of that as being like the most ubiquitous thing out there, you know, several billion people on it, but it's also because it's free, right? So it's like, there's some number of what are the total number of people that will be willing to pay $999 in the US for music streaming service, or whatever that price difference may be in their respective place. We still haven't gotten there yet. And I'm curious, you know what that actual number will be. And it's just so hard to know, because I think some people think it's going to be a lot higher. And there's other people that think that we’re close to that peak. So who knows. Isaac Hayes III 18:38 I don't think we're anywhere near the peak because it's the nature, the market will grow as the youth grow. And so as kids are more like, kids are trained and kind of use to subscriptions, and virtual currency, and app purchases, it's that they've known that their whole lives. I remember when I was first discussing building Fanbase, I spoke to someone that was in their 30s, they were like, I'd never subscribed to another person, right? Why would I do that.? And then I was in the Apple Store, and I just randomly asked this 20, I think the young lady was probably like, 21 years old. I think I asked how old she was. She says I'm 21, I was like, if you could subscribe or what her favorite group was, and my first inclination that she was going to name a very famous artist, and she named an indie band, right? What's your favorite artists? I bet you're gonna name somebody like, you know, Ariana Grande. I said, if you could subscribe to that person for $3.99 a month, that band for $3.99 a month, and they would post videos and they were working on their album or exclusive photos and stuff like that.Maybe, they might let you buy, you know, tickets to their show before anybody else, would you do that? And her answer was like, fuck yeah, $3.99. And I'm like, that's when I was, okay, I gotta do this because they don't care. There was, I remember, there were legions of people that swore they wanted to own a mp3. And I'm like, man, it's $10 a month to listen to everything that's ever been created. Only your mp3 is out of here. That's a done deal. So I think the market will go as the youth decide. And the youth are showing their propensity to spend, or virtually, you know, their Cashapp and Venmo and PayPal, their NFT's, their crypto, they're all in that space. So I think it's going to actually explode way beyond what it is now. Dan Runcie 20:13 Yeah, that's a good point. The other thing, too, is that there are just so many other services beyond the digital streaming providers that are offering some type of music experience that's going to drive up the platform, right? Like it doesn't always have to be streaming. It can be in app purchases, the same way that, you know, these kids go wild about V-bucks or whatever it is in these games, it's going to be the same thing there. As more and more of these companies getting music licensing, like, we're going to see that continue to happen. So it'll be interesting. Isaac Hayes III 20:42 I'm telling you... I'm spending money on Call of Duty to make my gun cooler or wear cooler outfit. Kids are going to spend money to have access to shoes before anybody else can, tickets before anybody else can, experiences that no one else can have for, you know, small amounts of prices, and that give them exclusivity and clout and bragging rights. Trust me, I know exactly what's going to happen. Dan Runcie 21:07 Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Let's talk more about today's sponsor Intercept Music. The company is on a mission to empower independent artists everywhere. This is a tale as old as time. Artists and labels have often had to choose between their creative freedom and autonomy and access to marketing and distribution that would catapult their careers. Well, that's no longer the choice, especially today, people can have both and Intercept is one of the companies making that happen. It offers a fully managed advertising and promotional service allows you to distribute your music and you have the opportunity to sell merchandise through its branded online stores. This is your one-stop shop to manage your career and take it to that next level. As an artist or label, Intercept can help you unshackle your monetization opportunities and, as Method Man said himself, you can use this platform and keep 100% of your shit. To learn more, go to interceptmusic.com and learn how this company is helping independent artists like you take their careers to the next level. You mentioned Call of Duty for yourself. Are there any other personal areas that you've been personally where, you know, attracted to, whether it's a single game or a solo thing where, you know, a majority of your attention has gone to? Isaac Hayes III 22:23 Just call... I only play one game, Call of Duty. I've been playing Call of Duty for like 12 years, I like content. So I used to fly drones, like, all the time. Like, not just for the fun of flying, but the fun of capturing the actual content and creating content. But other than that, I mean... Social media is like, it's a passion of mine because I liked the connectivity. And I liked the potential. I liked the potential of being disruptive. And where we can create unique experiences via technology. That's one thing I love about technology, technology doesn't give my brain like a limit. I have conversations with my CTO and say, hey, you know, can we do this? And he's like, the question is not if we can do it, it's just how long it'll take us to do it. How many man hours? Well, we could do it. And that's the greatest feeling to have, like, can we make this do this and just do this? He's like, yeah, we could do that. But and so having like, your imagination not being limited. Only the, only limitation is your resources like man hours, and manpower, and funds. And cool. Like, I understand that part. So don't you know, don't give me $100 million dollars, move out of the way. You know, no, don't let me raise $100 million. You want to see an app, like be fly than anything you've ever seen? Fanbase is phenomenal. And we raised $6 million. Imagine what we do, and we raised 60, 600 million, it's gonna be phenomenal. That's why I'm excited. I'm like, oh, it's gonna be go time for sure. Dan Runcie 23:40 So what does the future fundraising timeline look like for you? Where do you think you'll raise again? And how big do you think that'll be? Isaac Hayes III 23:46 I mean, we've been getting calls, which is kind of curious, because I guess the A&R of what a VC is, their version of A&R has been starting to reach out because they see Fanbase making waves and so now, it's not me going to VCs, but it's VCs coming to us, which is better. So I feel we still have a lot of work to do in a short period of time. But I would like to raise a significant series, a somewhere, you know, in the eight figure range, really to get us, you know, in eight figure range to really get us where we need to be because there's so much involved with data and streaming and music licensing. And so these platforms have to be funded to scale and so we're gonna need it. You know, I love the notion of being able to continue to raise equity crowdfunding with people, and I think I'll find ways to continue to do that. But you also... VCs also serve a very good purpose of their knowledge, their relationships, their experience. So I'm not opposed to them. I'm just sometimes primarily opposed to the terms. So now we can have conversations that are different than that. I'm not opposed to the VCs, I'm just opposed to the terms. So sometimes we just have to work better and making sure we get fair terms by doing things on our own.  Dan Runcie 24:54 And I think the fact that you're at the place you're at now gives you the leverage to do that, right? I think one of the reasons that the unfair terms happen more often is because the founder or the founders don't come from that place of leverage. They're more so looking for the help just from being able to be sustainable, to keep the lights on and all those things, you have that piece of it checked off, given what you've been able to do with the money you've been able to raise. So it's more so, hey, we're trying to go a bit faster. We're trying to do this, this, and this, if you want to be in it would be great. But if you don't, there's other people knocking at the door who can make this happen. Isaac Hayes III 25:32 Yeah, I mean, writing your own path, you know, coming from the music business, I look at like, I look at percentages, so I'm on a platform called PitchBook, where I can see like, how much equity was given up for what percentage and I'm like, what, gave up what, for 39% of the company, and like, hell, oh, no, you can't do that. Because you have to be strategic. And I know, sometimes we want to get our product to market so bad. And we want it, we feel that once we get there, doesn't matter if I gave him this much, it's gonna be successful, I'm gonna be able to do this, but you have to be conservative with equity, you can't be selfish. At the same time, people have got to invest money, they're gonna want significant portions of your company. But I think the more work you do improving your model on your own, the more advantageous you are as a part of the VCs, because now you can work together. I love my team, my team is brilliant, they're smarter than I am, I'm just a big idea guy that want to make sure, wants to make sure that the colors look good, and the energy is right. And then the rest is up for us to really, you know, structure this business. So I like writing our ticket that way by being independent, as I like to say.  Dan Runcie 26:34 So how big is the team now? And how big do you think it'll be end of this year? Isaac Hayes III 26:38 So right now we have a team of 25 developers, and probably 15 other personnel or 40. But I think our development team would probably be 150, given a significant raise, and probably our executive team probably go from like, 15 to 30 people. So it would grow. I mean, you know, and that's with everything, running it, you know, at best case, you know, if I had it my way, because we can build faster and more simultaneous functionality. And then I love you know, being able to pay really smart people to make Fanbase do amazing things and in the right amount of time. So I'm looking forward to that though, we have a game plan to really scale up to a million users by June, it's two months. It's two months, as you know, it's April, you know, saying April 8, so we don't have that much time. But I'm looking forward to the grind. Dan Runcie 27:30 And I also got to imagine that the Atlanta community and culture ecosystem you're around has and will continue to have so much of an impact on you. Can you talk about how beneficial it's been from that perspective? I know y'all got The Gathering Spot, and you have so many other execs there. How important has that collective been? Isaac Hayes III 27:51 It's been invaluable, because the first conversations that I had about building a startup social media platform happened at The Gathering Spot, they were members that were in the tech space that I looked at as mentors, their names are Jewel Burks, Barry Gibbons, and Justin Dawkins. They are all accomplished tech professionals in their own right, and the fact that I could sit right next to them, like a kid, you know, being able to talk to like, talk to Michael Jordan or whoever be like, yo, how do you do this? How do you do that? How are you able to do these things, and then lending their ear and lending their voice and their information to me is invaluable. I think that was really, you know, the essence of community and Atlanta, especially in the black tech space. They're just tons of brilliant people and I've met met at those spaces, but those three individuals were like instrumental in helping me shape Fanbase to the company because they told me you know, why it's important that you have a CTO that has a stake in the in your company, why is important, like what your deck must look like, why you know, when it's a raise, how you scale, all these things that you have to bring together. And so that's the dope part about it. So the Atlanta communities are invaluable in that fashion. We're all like, there's no ceiling of what you can achieve in a city like Atlanta with black leadership. I was just telling you, I just saw a clip today about Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson being able to be elected to the Supreme Court, Symone Sanders said, if you didn't elect Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff in Georgia, that would have never happened, he wouldn't have had the votes or the leverage to do so. And so a political community that's aware, that's African American that understands how politics play in the ability for you to scale your business and city like Atlanta is invaluable. That's the probably, the biggest asset to being anybody in the city is, is probably that there's a political foundation that has been built on for over 60 years that kind of gives people the energy and the confidence to try things that no other people would try. Like Tyler Perry saying, I'm gonna build a movie studio, like L.A. & Babyface, and we're gonna bring a record company to the city, like someone like The Gathering Spot, or Pinky Cole with Slutty Vegan, or Tracey Pickett with Hairbrella. Like all these amazing startups that are coming out of Atlanta, Georgia, and have come out of Atlanta, Georgia. So it's a place for you to dream and excel. Dan Runcie 30:02 It really is. It's remarkable just to see how much of it stems in. I think so many of you as well have roots in music and how I think that has been the core of what you all have been able to do and achieve. And it makes me think a lot about where your inspiration for why this is so important to you came from. You would obviously seen your dad's experience in the music industry and some of the challenges he had had with unfair contracts and things like that. Can you talk a bit about how that through line was for you in terms of the influence and seeing that inspire where you want to be the most impactful and how that shapes Fanbase? Isaac Hayes III 30:39 Yeah, so I mean, as a kid, getting into the music industry, the first thing I learned, before I learned about music notes, I learned about music publishing, and it's just because that's what your family's gonna tell you is like, look, all this creative stuff is great, but know your business, right? Because you can get taken advantage of, don't get caught up in it. It's a joy, like creating music, being a creator is the best feeling in the world, making songs that people want to dance to, and that are part of their lives. And never forget, if you don't have that business, it's going to be something that you're going to wind up having a bitter taste in your mouth about because you've created all this great music, but do you really benefit from it, people that exploit you. So content ownership, ownership of your content, exploiting your content to your benefit has always been something that's been in the back of my mind. So that's why I say I've approached tech with a music industry mindset and nothing gets grimier than in the music business. So like I said, you know, tech is nothing compared to, like, the record business. So if you can handle a record business, you can handle tech, because the deals are what the deals are. The deals are straightforward, you know, the music history just makes up their rules. And so I had a great teacher and my father and my mom who just taught me about the business. So I think that helps a lot. It gave me, it gave me quite a bit of perspective of why artists deserve to get paid more for the content they create. And that's any user on social media. Those are the people that are making these dances go viral. Also the people that are being funny, those are people that are bringing really great thought-provoking content that gets you thinking, get you inspired, get you to vote, get you to, you know, to protest. So we have to, you know, make sure that those people have an opportunity to really make sure that they monetize their energy in that way. Dan Runcie 32:16 Definitely, and I hear you on how the music industry, there's so there could be so much lack of clarity on these things. I know one of the things that you've also been pushing towards is to get the music rights back from your dad's music. How has that process been? And where are things right now with that? Isaac Hayes III 32:34 So it's just a matter of time. I mean, the good thing about Copyright Law is they expire, they return to the original authors. And so we're just in the process right now of terminating so much as a case publishing, we've terminated all the songs that he wrote from 1963, all the way up to 1968 into going into 69. So there's, you know, his entire songwriting catalog as a songwriter we haven't even gotten to the Isaac Hayes era, but we've terminated you know, one of his biggest works was a song called Hold On, I'm Comin' that he wrote for Sam & Dave that gets used at commercials all the time. So that process is moving along, you know, very steadily and now there's new opportunities and new deals for my family, or equitable opportunities, and the ownership is ours. So it's a great spot to be in right now. Dan Runcie 33:19 That's good to hear. I mean, because we've definitely know how tough it can be especially on your side, whether you're an estate manager or you're just more broadly trying to get it back for the sake of your family or loved one so that's good to hear. And on the estate side of it, I know you do manage that. Definitely heard a number of stories of different people that have managed estates over the years, both the good that comes from it, but also some of the challenges as well. Can you talk a little bit about how your experience has been on that front? Isaac Hayes III 33:48 I mean, well, I was looking at it,I look at a brand, it’s like a hot air balloon. And so the higher the balloon goes, the more people see it. So it's a job I'm going to stay to get that balloon as high as possible before you try to do things so people say well, how come there hasn't been a you know, a movie on your father I was like, well, there's more work the balloon gotta get a little higher. We got to, people got to see a brand and build it. So it's been tough because I think a couple things like icons, black icons are not always held to the same standard or represented in media the way that white icons are. And what I mean by that and that's the job above actually the black community to uplift its own icons to do so. And when I tell people all the time I said, look, you go to the grocery store, and you can practice this exercise, you can go, you can go to the grocery store, and you're always going to see one of four people in a magazine at all times. You're going to see John Wayne, Ronald Reagan, Elvis Presley, or Babe Ruth, at any time. And all of those guys have been dead for quite a long time, but they never let you forget their icons. They never let you forget Audrey Hepburn, they never let you forget Marilyn Monroe, they keep their legacy and their icons immortalized by continuing to push them and elevate them through media. Now in black culture, we typically do that for a period of time, but you don't typically see Dorothy Dandridge, or Sammy Davis Jr., or James Brown, or Martin Luther King, or people on covers of magazines just cause right, it's usually in some drama that, you know, some tabloid is trying to bring back up, but just for the sake of doing an amazing pictorial on, you know, Ray Charles, and to let that continue to uplift his legacy. That doesn't happen that often. So we have to take better care of our black icons, and continue to uplift them in media to do so. Dan Runcie 35:32 That's a good point about the same faces you already see in the magazines, or you go to the grocery store. I think all the names you mentioned are the ones that you often see. On the movie point, though, I do hope that we do get in Isaac Hayes movie, at some point. I know you're saying that, you know, these days, you got to wait for the bubble to get a little bit bigger. But it's one of those things we're in this moment now where you're seeing, I'm sure you've seen it, too, so many music documented, whether it's documentaries, or the bio pics themselves, and some of them are a lot better than others. But you still know that they all had a ton of money poured into them. So hopefully, while this run is going on, that bubble can meet and the stars can align to make something like that happen. Isaac Hayes III 36:14 I think so. I mean, we definitely have a documentary that must be told before feature film, I think a biographical nonfiction version of what really happened and what my dad's life was really like is a story that I think should be told first, and then we could dramaticize that and infantilize that in a way that I think brings young people and old people together. And I have that in my mind of how we merge all these genres together, these generations together to really tell the story of Isaac Hayes because I think he's probably the most relatable icon to the current generation of any icon that's passed away, by the way that he looked, by the way the type of music he created because I'm like, it's like, there's not too many people that still wear clothes like Michael Jackson, or wear their hair like James Brown, but there's several black men with bald heads and beards and sunglasses still in 2022. So the relatability is there. And then in terms of evergreen music, it's just like people continue to sample him to make new records. So I think he has the most connectable thread to the youth coming from his generation to now so we're definitely going to capitalize on that, expand more on that in 2022 and 2023. Dan Runcie 37:32 Who would you want to play him in a biopic? Isaac Hayes III 37:27 Ah, I've said this before. Just off first glance to the surface is probably Jonathan Majors, right? I like Jonathan Majors. Jonathan Majors is a phenomenal actor. I looked at him, I said he could play him. But then there's like, you know, you never know. I mean, there's always this sea of amazing, you know, talent out there, especially from people... I always get trouble in saying it but let me tell you something, the UK Brits, the Brits got those actors. Like they come from places like, I'm like, most of the shows I've watched on TV, the actors are British, like what? Like Snowfall? Like All American? The Walking Dead? It's like, yeah, those are the guys that you wouldn't know. They're so good at what they do. You would have never thought that but they're so classically trained. And then there's some, you know, amazing actors in the States as well. But you know, even Daniel Kaluuya. I'm like, oh, man, all these dudes? Brits be crushing it. So who knows, though, but Jonathan majors is an amazing actor. And I think he could do a great job portraying Isaac Hayes. Dan Runcie 38:24 He's a good one. I'm excited to see what he does at this Creed movie coming up. And the range is there, you saw his Marvel thing, and I've done of course, Last Black Man in San Francisco. He's so good. Isaac Hayes III 38:35 Yeah, I'm like, What's he gonna do a Ceed? I'm like, okay, what's going on? Like Creed 3? That's gonna be a good one right there. Dan Runcie 38:41 I know. I know. Yeah.  Isaac Hayes III 38:41 It's going to be interesting. Dan Runcie 38:42 That will be good. Isaac Hayes III 38:42 Yeah. Dan Runcie 38:43 Daniel Kaluuya, of course, I think he's one of the best under 40 actors. I mean, period. He's one of the best folks under 40 we got right now. So I mean, obviously, what he did with Fred Hampton was amazing. So I think he would be legit, but it's good that you brought up the British piece because it's one of these things where we both know, if that happened, people would be you know, all up in arms like they are about a lot of black British folks that play American actors, thought or based off of American icons. But it's like you yourself as the person representing the estate in the family is like no, I would endorse this based on what you're seeing. We know how that conversation would go. Isaac Hayes III 39:24 Oh, yeah, no. Yeah, I think again, like I said, Jonathan Majors was the first in mind that I had. And again, you never know who's out there by way, like, even like I watched it just by actors in general. I watch Winning Time, the story about the Lakers and the guy that plays Magic Johnson, they just found him like, Dan Runcie 39:37 He's so good. Isaac Hayes III 39:40 He's so perfect for the role. That's what I'm saying. Like there's always the right person for the role, it's out there. You got to find them. But it’s just like I said, I don't think he's, he hadn't been in anything, I think, a lot of stuff. I don't think he'd done a lot of stuff. But they were like, it's this guy in California, like, give them a go. See, when we came in the room, he smiled. It did that. Like, it's Magic Johnson. He's killing it. So yeah, you always know that and I think, and also, here's another dream of mine, though, is I do want another Shaft film. I want another Shaft film with a modern Shaft, right? I want a modern, you know, modern day Shaft and the person that I think that should play that is Mahershala. Ali. I would love to see Mahershala Ali as a new Shaft do that. I know he's about to be Blade, his plate is full. So but again, yeah, I think Shaft go modernize is something else to do, such a big part of my dad's career. So and I think there will always be an appetite to have a black, you know, superhero in the sense of saying, a person that stood up for his community and fought crime and as a stand up black man. So I think there's always the ability to do that, too. Dan Runcie 40:41 Oh, yeah, I think he would be great at that type of role. And I think that Blade definitely gives you some of that imagery of, you know, the black trench coat and everything. And the whole vibe, too. But yeah, I think that'll be good. Isaac Hayes III 40:53 Sure. Dan Runcie 40:53 Even what artists would, you know, cover the version that your dad did, and you know, with that, I mean, thinking about that, too, for the song perspective?  Isaac Hayes III 41:03 Yeah, we have a lot of unreleased, I have a lot of unreleased Isaac Hayes music that was recorded around the same time. And trust me, it's some Shaft D stuff in there, some stuff. Like I've been holding on to it for years now. Like I think I transferred those masters in 2014. For eight years, I haven't even really let some of that stuff. Like I said, they won't call about another Shaft at some point. And I'm gonna be ready. I'm gonna be ready to let people check it out. Dan Runcie 41:25 Oh, yeah. You know, the call is coming soon, especially the way that content works right now, the call's coming soon.  Isaac Hayes III 41:30 Absolutely. Dan Runcie 41:31 Well, Isaac, this has been great. It's been great to chat, hear more about Fanbase, hear about some of the other things you're working on with regards to the estate. But before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug or let the Trapital audience know about? Isaac Hayes III 41:45 Of course, to download Fanbase, we have a new version of audio, we have audio chat rooms that are monetized. So a new version of audio is coming in, like, probably, like a couple of weeks, we have our version of TikTok and Reels called Flicks so you can make short form video. And we have stories that are for followers and subscribers. So you can put your stories behind a subscription paywall as well. And I think that's something that's amazing, too. baseLike I said, monetizing content for everybody is just something that I think the world is gonna be all immersive in in the future, say right now is that kind of that friction point where it's like, is it really going to be a thing? And people are going to resist it at first, but once it becomes part of the norm the same way with all these other media verticals, our social media is just a next vertical for subscription. Dan Runcie 42:46 Definitely, we see where it's all heading right. 10 years ago, people thought it was gonna be crazy, like, oh, you're gonna pay people at social media to do posts and now influencers do it on the regular. It's just a matter of timing, platform, and everything. And I feel like you got the right mix. Isaac Hayes III 42:40 Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Dan Runcie 42:42 Thanks, Isaac. This is great. Appreciate it. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 22 Apr 2022 08:00:00 -0000 How Fanbase Raised $6 Million Without VC with Isaac Hayes III full 122 Dan Runcie In less than three years, the Fanbase social content app has raised six million dollars (without traditional venture capital) and is inching toward the one-million user mark. How did co-founder Issac Hayes III take the app from nothing all the way to this? If you ask him, his life spent in the cut-throat music industry gave him the inspiration AND business chops to thrive within the tech space.  As the son of legendary R&B artist Isaac Hayes, he was made well aware from the get-go of the exploitative practices by record labels toward musicians. Isaac would go on to notice similar exploitation with social media giants and their users, who were creating content and driving attention, but reaping little of the billions of dollars in revenues being reported by the same corporations. Fanbase is changing those optics. On the app, users can post content — written, photo, video, audio chat, and live stream — for a subscription fee. As Isaac sees it, “monetization for every user is the wave of the future.” For a full glimpse of how Isaac is building Fanbase into a disruptive social media force, you’ll want to tune into our interview. Here’s what we covered in the episode: [4:10] Fanbase Raised $6 Million From Crowdfunding — Not Venture Capital [6:34] The Most Important Investors Of Fanbase  [8:10] Making Investing More Accessible [10:30] How Fanbase Is Acquiring New Customers [11:59] Fanbase’s Biggest Business Advantage (Not What You Think) [14:13] “Monetization For Every User Is The Wave Of The Future” [16:18] Why Artists Shouldn’t Sell Their Catalogs [22:23] What Isaac Loves About Technology [23:40] What Does Fanbase’s Future Fundraising Timeline Look Like? [26:38] Size Of Fanbase’s Team Now & In Near-Future [27:51] Atlanta’s Underrated Scene Outside Hip-Hp [30:39] Isaac’s Influence For Creating Fanbase [32:34] Getting The Music Rights Back For His Dad [33:48] Keeping Black Icons Relevant Post-Death [36:14] Will There Ever Be An Isaac Hayes Movie? [41:45] Fanbase’s New Features Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Isaac Hayes III, @isaachayes3    Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  _______________ Transcription Isaac Hayes III 00:00 I think monetization for every user is the wave of the future. I keep saying it, I think that there isn't a person right now that isn't subscribed to at least one thing. And one subscription becomes more and more the common vernacular of how we engage with content. Social media is the last, you know, frontier that's left. You know, when you think about TV and film with Hulu, and Netflix, and Disney+, and music with Spotify and Apple Music, and print media with Forbes, and The New York Times, and Billboard, and then productivity software like Adobe Premiere Pro, Microsoft Word. Like, you don't... You're subscribed to something. You're probably subscribed to an app on your phone that allows you to edit your photos. And so subscriptions are just the language. And so I think that's going to be the language of the future moving forward. Dan Runcie 00:53 Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's guest is Isaac Hayes III. He's the founder and CEO of Fanbase. Fanbase is a company that helps creators better monetize the content they put out. And on Fanbase's platform, followers can subscribe for $3.99 a month to get all of the exclusive content from their favorite creators, or they can follow creators and they can spread love. Love is the primary form of engagement on Fanbase, and it's how creators monetize. The more likes and love they get, the more revenue that they get into their pockets. So Fanbase addresses a lot of the challenges that people have had about social media more broadly. And in this chat, Isaac and I talk about what the journey has been like. He's been able to raise $6 million through crowdfunding. He did it through this platform called StartEngine, and he's had many well-known investors on board, folks like Snoop Dogg, Charlamagne The God, Kandi Burruss, Chamillionaire, Roland Martin, and more. So we talked about his decision to go that path as opposed to the traditional VC route. Isaac and I also talked about the trend of music publishing and the catalog sales that have been happening, and why he actually thinks that a lot of musicians should not be selling their catalogs. He is not the only person to say this, but these voices have been a little bit quieter in this narrative. So it was great to hear his perspective on this. And then we also talked about the other hat that Isaac wears. He is the manager of his late father's estate. His father is the legendary singer, Isaac Hayes. So we talked about what that experience has been like managing the estate, and how his father's experience in the music industry had formed a lot of the work that Isaac Hayes III himself wants to create and the opportunities he wants to do through Fanbase. We also talked about what an Isaac Hayes biopic would look like, and who Isaac Hayes III would want to play his father in a movie. I think he had a pretty good answer. I'm a big fan of this person. So I think you'll enjoy who we said. We also talked about Atlanta's impact, and just how influential that city has been in culture and for Fanbase as well, we had a great conversation, and I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. Here's my chat with Isaac Hayes III. All right, today, we got Isaac Hayes III with us. He's the co-founder and CEO of Fanbase, an app that helps creators monetize the content that they put out into the world and get what's there. So Isaac, thank you for joining. And it'd be great to just hear from you how things were going with you and how things been going with Fanbase. What's the latest been? Isaac Hayes III 03:46 Man, we just closed our second seed round of $2.6 million on StartEngine. So we've raised a total of $6 million in less than a year. It's been phenomenal. We're adding a lot of amazing functionality to Fanbase. And new features are rolling out in the next couple of weeks, a new version of audio, which is one of our flagship features on the platform that's monetized for all users. So it's an exciting time at Fanbase. Dan Runcie 04:10 Can you talk to me about your fundraising process a bit because I know that you crowdfunded the 6 billion. You were able to do it at a few different stages. But what made you go that route, as opposed to the more traditional venture capital fundraising? Isaac Hayes III 04:25 Two things: one was just a recommendation by a really good mentor of mine to do so. And it was in COVID, because, you know, we couldn't move. And I had a real kind of like off-putting conversation with a VC. And it immediately reminded me of the music business. And so in my mind, I immediately thought, okay, these seeds are like the label. And I'm like an artist trying to get a record deal. And so starting to gave me the opportunity to go independent, and sell my shares out of the trunk of my car to the tune of $6 million, which gives us better leverage, and lets people know that we don't need venture capital to raise serious cash. And so that's really how it, you know, wind up that being that way. Dan Runcie 05:06 Yeah, I heard the comparisons from a lot of people. And I think that the thing you often hear from folks that do crowdfund is that it can take a lot of time to get there. But at least from what I've seen from your process, you were able to get several thousand investors in a pretty short amount of time. So what were the steps from that perspective to keep the momentum hot, and to make sure that you had a strong pipeline? Isaac Hayes III 05:29 I think the best thing is, when you're, I think the biggest benefit was the fact that it's a product that the investors can actually use in real time. So it's not like they're giving to something, and they're investing in something and not knowing what the product will be or what it does. They're a part of it in real time. And it's something that's relatable to them. If I go and invest in a tech startup that does something to do with aerospace engines, cool, when I'm not with it every day. I just sit back and hope that they make the best decision possible with my investment. But Fanbase is something that I think is more personal to people because of where we are social media. So I think that gave it a lot of energy, because people are a part of the process, and they feel part of the platform and part of this journey together in real time. So it's something that you can use, you know, and then who better, I got to say, to give actual equity in a social media startup into the users themselves that will actually make the platform grow.  Dan Runcie 06:20 And I think you're able to find some influential folks with that too, right? You got Kandi Burruss, you got Charlamagne. And of course with their platforms, they're able to help amplify and can connect you with other investors or just other creators, given what they've done. Isaac Hayes III 06:34 Yeah, but we honestly haven't used them in that fashion. And I actually don't typically want them or to do that particularly yet. And the reason being is because I like the fact that they are silent in their action, because a lot of times when people of notoriety step out in a space where they're invested in a platform and may turn other people off, that feel like well, I didn't get that opportunity. And in social media, it's more about the users. The most important investors on Fanbase, and we have some really big, big name investors, the most important investors on Fanbase are the actual users, the larger, broader, probably a sea of 8000 plus individuals that have put their money in and actually use the platform on a day-today basis, who will be those day-to-day, you know, hardcore super users. But relationships and those investors that are of a high stature like a Snoop Dogg and stuff like that, their time will come later. They all, I know, they all know exactly when they're going to get on and when they're going to turn the engine up on the platform. So we're just, you know, we're focused on the core audience and the core investors of the platform being what we really focus on at Fanbase. Dan Runcie 07:41 And with 8000 investors, you mentioned $6 million raised, it makes it pretty affordable to, you know, for people to be able to have a stake, because I think that's one of the challenges that you often see from institutional money that comes through or some of the minimum buy-ins for some investments is that it isn't always the most accessible for folks that may be interested. So I think you're able to at least allow that to happen given the amount of people that were able to invest for the total amount you have. Isaac Hayes III 08:10 Absolutely, I mean, the accredited investor rule has kind of been a barrier for all people, you know. I don't care what race you are, if it's a law that's been in effect since 1933, it's just only given opportunities to rich people to actually invest in early stage companies. So you're coming out of the Great Depression, if you ever wonder why none of your family members got a call to invest in IBM, or Microsoft, or Apple, or Facebook, and so on and so forth. It's this accredited investor rule that is given all the best opportunities of wealth to the wealthy. And so I love the fact that Barack Obama and Joe Biden pass the Jobs Act and allow people like myself to go to my peers and the public to actually have the same opportunity that VCs and accredited investors have to get a piece of the American dream by investing the same way that all these other people have been able to do for 83 years. Dan Runcie 09:01 I think we're gonna see the rules continue to break down on that. I know now they have that flexible option where I think if you take the Series 63 or 7 or one of those tests, then you can become accredited. So that's one way to pass the income thresholds. But I feel like even that is probably going to break down at some point. That just feels like where everything is at it. Isaac Hayes III 09:22 It should. I mean, one of the seed investors in Uber, a guy by the name of Oren Michels only invested $5,000 into Uber, but when it IPO in 2019 is 5000 was worth 24 million. And I'm like, well, how come we can go to Vegas and spend $5,000 on the crap table or go buy $5,000 worth of lottery tickets, but I can't invest in Uber. And I think that's the real crime is that, you know, it's okay that if you go blow your money gambling in that fashion, but not gambling in in the fashion of investing your money in a startup like Uber, which wound up being very, very successful, so the rules have to change and platforms like StartEngine are breaking down those barriers. Dan Runcie 9:59 Right, especially when so many other people using it and giving these startups their early validation are the ones that believe and see in the future. So I feel like those dots got to connect eventually. But... Isaac Hayes III 10:10 It will for sure. Dan Runcie 10:11 Going back to Fanbase itself and how things are, I read that you have a goal be able to hit a million users in June. And it would be great to hear what your strategy has been in terms of acquiring customers. What's been the most effective thing that you've done to get more creators and users onto the platform? Isaac Hayes III 10:30 I think the biggest thing is actually just word of mouth, right? It's the quality of the product. And then I think we're in a very unique time, a very opportunistic time for platforms like Fanbase to emerge, because of this transition from users wanting more access to their following, they're getting tired of words like shadowbanning and content suppression and stuff like that. And algorithms are becoming the enemy of the common user on the platform, or even the super user on the platform, because platforms typically are profitable off ad revenue. And so for that to happen, you can't simultaneously provide visibility for every user on the platform, and then run ads at the same time. That's counterproductive to the business model. Because if that's the case, then the people that buy ads would just go to the users themselves and run ads that way. And then you would have no business model. And so Fanbase is just you know, emerging at a time right now that I think the conversation is different. And ad based, ad-based revenue social media platforms are going to continue to change that puts us right, at the right time to continue to grow. So word of mouth. And then timing is just helping us, and then we have an amazing creative advisory board of young people. There's some other strategic partnerships, and I'm really excited to begin working on that, they’re really rooted in community and rooted in the culture of what we want on Fanbase, which is young, centennial people of all races, ages, backgrounds, creating content and monetize. Dan Runcie 11:56 What are some of those partnerships? Anything you can share with us? Isaac Hayes III 11:59 No, because... And the reason why I can't is because they're really savvy in the way there's things that I think, social media startups, I'll say this, like, I think Fanbase has the best advantage to become a social media unicorn by simply being in Atlanta. And what I mean by that is like Atlanta, is the epicenter of black culture in the United States of America. And what we know about Black culture is Black culture is pop culture. And we know about pop culture, pop culture is what drives social media. So therefore, if you're right at the epicenter of where the viral challenge is going to happen, or the newest, funny influencer, or the dance challenge, or the artist is at, being able to have them be part of Fanbase, and part of that community gives us a really big advantage. So some of those partnerships are rooted in culture, and community, and music. I can't announce them or anything, because it's really dope, though, the way that you have an advantage to do so. And I think a lot of the other platforms know that, which is why they kind of try to pivot in and out. And also try to acquire those users from Atlanta, those the talent, they're like, oh, let's pay them. Let's try to get them, you know, in the same way, but I think Fanbase just has a little bit more of an advantage. Dan Runcie 13:09 I hear that and thinking, too, about making sure that the talent gets paid fairly. I think that's been the underlying theme for so much of why you wanted to create this. There have been so many people that we've seen have become viral sensations, or creators who have a strong following, but being able to really tap into that in a meaningful way hasn't always worked. And in some cases, it's everyone else making money instead of them. I think you would have that story about the ghetto Spider-Man and how the person behind that had blown up, but he's the one calling you like, hey, what do I do? Like, is anything that can help here? And you think about that, and you just think about all of these creators, whether it's folks on TikTok, that are, like the guy that does the hands video, you know, he is, you know, one of the biggest creators, but he isn't anywhere on that Forbes list of the top creators. So I feel like you’ll be able to bridge that connection of, okay, there's clearly a market gap here and how we can have a platform that can close that and how big of an opportunity that is. Isaac Hayes III 14:13 It's an enormous opportunity. I think monetization for every user is the wave of the future. I keep saying it. I think that there isn't a person right now that isn't subscribed to at least one thing. And one subscription becomes more and more the common vernacular of how we engage with content. Social media is the last, you know, frontier that's left. You know, when you think about TV and film with Hulu, and Netflix, and Disney+, and music with Spotify and Apple Music, and print media with Forbes, and The New York Times, and Billboard, and then productivity software like Adobe Premiere Pro, Microsoft Word. Like, you don't... You're subscribed to something. You're probably subscribed to an app on your phone that allows you to edit your photos. And so subscriptions are just the language. And so I think that's going to be the language of the future moving forward. And so I think that's going to be the language of the future moving forward. And it just, it gives everybody a chance to make money as opposed to the people that the apps highlight to be most successful, because they're the best vehicles for ads to run in between their content. Think about that, like the larger audience on, the greater audience of a platform like Tiktok, since there's really only one kind of like channel. It's literally just a platform of short form video. So the wider audience on their demographic on that platform is a white audience just based off of the United States. So therefore, it would behoove them to have bigger white stars to run ads to monetize that larger audience. So that's what they kind of have to focus on. So Fanbase doesn't worry about that. It doesn't matter who you are. Everybody can be a superstar on the platform. Dan Runcie 15:42 Yeah. And that piece about the subscriptions as well, it just, everyone having that and then seeing who can profit off of it. It also makes me think of an exchange you and I had had recently, we're talking about what's happening right now in the music industry and these catalog valuations, too. You had shared perspective that artists actually should not be selling their or publishing their catalogs, because how much room streaming has to grow. And you just look at some of the demographics on that. What's your take on it? And how much bigger do you think this market will get? Isaac Hayes III 16:18 Man, I think it'd be massive. Like I said, at the time, last year was 400, I think it was 450 million people were on music streaming services this year, it's like 525. It's jumped up. That's like, you know, almost like 7 to 9% of all the people with the ability to have streaming services like Apple Music or Spotify on their phone, have them over the next decade by 2030, I think it'll be close to a billion people, so that, that'll be almost a little over double what is available. So imagine and that's only that's only like 1 billion, it's less than a billion, not even a billion people a music streaming services, but there's 6.3 billion people on the planet with smartphones, you know, satellite Wi Fi, satellite internet is going to be something that is going to actually be more connected, as opposed to where wires can go. You know, satellites can go to provide people Internet, and then with video, like, there's like 222 million people on Netflix. And there's 6.3 billion people, the available market share is massive. So I mean, as big as a company is Netflix is, they don't even have, you know, they don't even have 7% of the market of available people that can get on their platform, it's more like three and a half. So think of the growth potential that Netflix can have or anybody that's providing subscriptions via content they can have. That's why we're focused on person-to-person subscription content, which I think will trump everything in the future.  Dan Runcie 17:42 Yeah, it's interesting, because I think there's these two trends happening, because one of the reasons everyone's buying the catalogs is exactly what you said, people see the upside, were streaming's going n the other side, you're also seeing, whether it's Netflix or Spotify, the rapid growth that they may have had once starting to slow down a little bit. So you do think about, yes, you know, a service like Facebook, if we think of that as being like the most ubiquitous thing out there, you know, several billion people on it, but it's also because it's free, right? So it's like, there's some number of what are the total number of people that will be willing to pay $999 in the US for music streaming service, or whatever that price difference may be in their respective place. We still haven't gotten there yet. And I'm curious, you know what that actual number will be. And it's just so hard to know, because I think some people think it's going to be a lot higher. And there's other people that think that we’re close to that peak. So who knows. Isaac Hayes III 18:38 I don't think we're anywhere near the peak because it's the nature, the market will grow as the youth grow. And so as kids are more like, kids are trained and kind of use to subscriptions, and virtual currency, and app purchases, it's that they've known that their whole lives. I remember when I was first discussing building Fanbase, I spoke to someone that was in their 30s, they were like, I'd never subscribed to another person, right? Why would I do that.? And then I was in the Apple Store, and I just randomly asked this 20, I think the young lady was probably like, 21 years old. I think I asked how old she was. She says I'm 21, I was like, if you could subscribe or what her favorite group was, and my first inclination that she was going to name a very famous artist, and she named an indie band, right? What's your favorite artists? I bet you're gonna name somebody like, you know, Ariana Grande. I said, if you could subscribe to that person for $3.99 a month, that band for $3.99 a month, and they would post videos and they were working on their album or exclusive photos and stuff like that.Maybe, they might let you buy, you know, tickets to their show before anybody else, would you do that? And her answer was like, fuck yeah, $3.99. And I'm like, that's when I was, okay, I gotta do this because they don't care. There was, I remember, there were legions of people that swore they wanted to own a mp3. And I'm like, man, it's $10 a month to listen to everything that's ever been created. Only your mp3 is out of here. That's a done deal. So I think the market will go as the youth decide. And the youth are showing their propensity to spend, or virtually, you know, their Cashapp and Venmo and PayPal, their NFT's, their crypto, they're all in that space. So I think it's going to actually explode way beyond what it is now. Dan Runcie 20:13 Yeah, that's a good point. The other thing, too, is that there are just so many other services beyond the digital streaming providers that are offering some type of music experience that's going to drive up the platform, right? Like it doesn't always have to be streaming. It can be in app purchases, the same way that, you know, these kids go wild about V-bucks or whatever it is in these games, it's going to be the same thing there. As more and more of these companies getting music licensing, like, we're going to see that continue to happen. So it'll be interesting. Isaac Hayes III 20:42 I'm telling you... I'm spending money on Call of Duty to make my gun cooler or wear cooler outfit. Kids are going to spend money to have access to shoes before anybody else can, tickets before anybody else can, experiences that no one else can have for, you know, small amounts of prices, and that give them exclusivity and clout and bragging rights. Trust me, I know exactly what's going to happen. Dan Runcie 21:07 Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Let's talk more about today's sponsor Intercept Music. The company is on a mission to empower independent artists everywhere. This is a tale as old as time. Artists and labels have often had to choose between their creative freedom and autonomy and access to marketing and distribution that would catapult their careers. Well, that's no longer the choice, especially today, people can have both and Intercept is one of the companies making that happen. It offers a fully managed advertising and promotional service allows you to distribute your music and you have the opportunity to sell merchandise through its branded online stores. This is your one-stop shop to manage your career and take it to that next level. As an artist or label, Intercept can help you unshackle your monetization opportunities and, as Method Man said himself, you can use this platform and keep 100% of your shit. To learn more, go to interceptmusic.com and learn how this company is helping independent artists like you take their careers to the next level. You mentioned Call of Duty for yourself. Are there any other personal areas that you've been personally where, you know, attracted to, whether it's a single game or a solo thing where, you know, a majority of your attention has gone to? Isaac Hayes III 22:23 Just call... I only play one game, Call of Duty. I've been playing Call of Duty for like 12 years, I like content. So I used to fly drones, like, all the time. Like, not just for the fun of flying, but the fun of capturing the actual content and creating content. But other than that, I mean... Social media is like, it's a passion of mine because I liked the connectivity. And I liked the potential. I liked the potential of being disruptive. And where we can create unique experiences via technology. That's one thing I love about technology, technology doesn't give my brain like a limit. I have conversations with my CTO and say, hey, you know, can we do this? And he's like, the question is not if we can do it, it's just how long it'll take us to do it. How many man hours? Well, we could do it. And that's the greatest feeling to have, like, can we make this do this and just do this? He's like, yeah, we could do that. But and so having like, your imagination not being limited. Only the, only limitation is your resources like man hours, and manpower, and funds. And cool. Like, I understand that part. So don't you know, don't give me $100 million dollars, move out of the way. You know, no, don't let me raise $100 million. You want to see an app, like be fly than anything you've ever seen? Fanbase is phenomenal. And we raised $6 million. Imagine what we do, and we raised 60, 600 million, it's gonna be phenomenal. That's why I'm excited. I'm like, oh, it's gonna be go time for sure. Dan Runcie 23:40 So what does the future fundraising timeline look like for you? Where do you think you'll raise again? And how big do you think that'll be? Isaac Hayes III 23:46 I mean, we've been getting calls, which is kind of curious, because I guess the A&R of what a VC is, their version of A&R has been starting to reach out because they see Fanbase making waves and so now, it's not me going to VCs, but it's VCs coming to us, which is better. So I feel we still have a lot of work to do in a short period of time. But I would like to raise a significant series, a somewhere, you know, in the eight figure range, really to get us, you know, in eight figure range to really get us where we need to be because there's so much involved with data and streaming and music licensing. And so these platforms have to be funded to scale and so we're gonna need it. You know, I love the notion of being able to continue to raise equity crowdfunding with people, and I think I'll find ways to continue to do that. But you also... VCs also serve a very good purpose of their knowledge, their relationships, their experience. So I'm not opposed to them. I'm just sometimes primarily opposed to the terms. So now we can have conversations that are different than that. I'm not opposed to the VCs, I'm just opposed to the terms. So sometimes we just have to work better and making sure we get fair terms by doing things on our own.  Dan Runcie 24:54 And I think the fact that you're at the place you're at now gives you the leverage to do that, right? I think one of the reasons that the unfair terms happen more often is because the founder or the founders don't come from that place of leverage. They're more so looking for the help just from being able to be sustainable, to keep the lights on and all those things, you have that piece of it checked off, given what you've been able to do with the money you've been able to raise. So it's more so, hey, we're trying to go a bit faster. We're trying to do this, this, and this, if you want to be in it would be great. But if you don't, there's other people knocking at the door who can make this happen. Isaac Hayes III 25:32 Yeah, I mean, writing your own path, you know, coming from the music business, I look at like, I look at percentages, so I'm on a platform called PitchBook, where I can see like, how much equity was given up for what percentage and I'm like, what, gave up what, for 39% of the company, and like, hell, oh, no, you can't do that. Because you have to be strategic. And I know, sometimes we want to get our product to market so bad. And we want it, we feel that once we get there, doesn't matter if I gave him this much, it's gonna be successful, I'm gonna be able to do this, but you have to be conservative with equity, you can't be selfish. At the same time, people have got to invest money, they're gonna want significant portions of your company. But I think the more work you do improving your model on your own, the more advantageous you are as a part of the VCs, because now you can work together. I love my team, my team is brilliant, they're smarter than I am, I'm just a big idea guy that want to make sure, wants to make sure that the colors look good, and the energy is right. And then the rest is up for us to really, you know, structure this business. So I like writing our ticket that way by being independent, as I like to say.  Dan Runcie 26:34 So how big is the team now? And how big do you think it'll be end of this year? Isaac Hayes III 26:38 So right now we have a team of 25 developers, and probably 15 other personnel or 40. But I think our development team would probably be 150, given a significant raise, and probably our executive team probably go from like, 15 to 30 people. So it would grow. I mean, you know, and that's with everything, running it, you know, at best case, you know, if I had it my way, because we can build faster and more simultaneous functionality. And then I love you know, being able to pay really smart people to make Fanbase do amazing things and in the right amount of time. So I'm looking forward to that though, we have a game plan to really scale up to a million users by June, it's two months. It's two months, as you know, it's April, you know, saying April 8, so we don't have that much time. But I'm looking forward to the grind. Dan Runcie 27:30 And I also got to imagine that the Atlanta community and culture ecosystem you're around has and will continue to have so much of an impact on you. Can you talk about how beneficial it's been from that perspective? I know y'all got The Gathering Spot, and you have so many other execs there. How important has that collective been? Isaac Hayes III 27:51 It's been invaluable, because the first conversations that I had about building a startup social media platform happened at The Gathering Spot, they were members that were in the tech space that I looked at as mentors, their names are Jewel Burks, Barry Gibbons, and Justin Dawkins. They are all accomplished tech professionals in their own right, and the fact that I could sit right next to them, like a kid, you know, being able to talk to like, talk to Michael Jordan or whoever be like, yo, how do you do this? How do you do that? How are you able to do these things, and then lending their ear and lending their voice and their information to me is invaluable. I think that was really, you know, the essence of community and Atlanta, especially in the black tech space. They're just tons of brilliant people and I've met met at those spaces, but those three individuals were like instrumental in helping me shape Fanbase to the company because they told me you know, why it's important that you have a CTO that has a stake in the in your company, why is important, like what your deck must look like, why you know, when it's a raise, how you scale, all these things that you have to bring together. And so that's the dope part about it. So the Atlanta communities are invaluable in that fashion. We're all like, there's no ceiling of what you can achieve in a city like Atlanta with black leadership. I was just telling you, I just saw a clip today about Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson being able to be elected to the Supreme Court, Symone Sanders said, if you didn't elect Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff in Georgia, that would have never happened, he wouldn't have had the votes or the leverage to do so. And so a political community that's aware, that's African American that understands how politics play in the ability for you to scale your business and city like Atlanta is invaluable. That's the probably, the biggest asset to being anybody in the city is, is probably that there's a political foundation that has been built on for over 60 years that kind of gives people the energy and the confidence to try things that no other people would try. Like Tyler Perry saying, I'm gonna build a movie studio, like L.A. & Babyface, and we're gonna bring a record company to the city, like someone like The Gathering Spot, or Pinky Cole with Slutty Vegan, or Tracey Pickett with Hairbrella. Like all these amazing startups that are coming out of Atlanta, Georgia, and have come out of Atlanta, Georgia. So it's a place for you to dream and excel. Dan Runcie 30:02 It really is. It's remarkable just to see how much of it stems in. I think so many of you as well have roots in music and how I think that has been the core of what you all have been able to do and achieve. And it makes me think a lot about where your inspiration for why this is so important to you came from. You would obviously seen your dad's experience in the music industry and some of the challenges he had had with unfair contracts and things like that. Can you talk a bit about how that through line was for you in terms of the influence and seeing that inspire where you want to be the most impactful and how that shapes Fanbase? Isaac Hayes III 30:39 Yeah, so I mean, as a kid, getting into the music industry, the first thing I learned, before I learned about music notes, I learned about music publishing, and it's just because that's what your family's gonna tell you is like, look, all this creative stuff is great, but know your business, right? Because you can get taken advantage of, don't get caught up in it. It's a joy, like creating music, being a creator is the best feeling in the world, making songs that people want to dance to, and that are part of their lives. And never forget, if you don't have that business, it's going to be something that you're going to wind up having a bitter taste in your mouth about because you've created all this great music, but do you really benefit from it, people that exploit you. So content ownership, ownership of your content, exploiting your content to your benefit has always been something that's been in the back of my mind. So that's why I say I've approached tech with a music industry mindset and nothing gets grimier than in the music business. So like I said, you know, tech is nothing compared to, like, the record business. So if you can handle a record business, you can handle tech, because the deals are what the deals are. The deals are straightforward, you know, the music history just makes up their rules. And so I had a great teacher and my father and my mom who just taught me about the business. So I think that helps a lot. It gave me, it gave me quite a bit of perspective of why artists deserve to get paid more for the content they create. And that's any user on social media. Those are the people that are making these dances go viral. Also the people that are being funny, those are people that are bringing really great thought-provoking content that gets you thinking, get you inspired, get you to vote, get you to, you know, to protest. So we have to, you know, make sure that those people have an opportunity to really make sure that they monetize their energy in that way. Dan Runcie 32:16 Definitely, and I hear you on how the music industry, there's so there could be so much lack of clarity on these things. I know one of the things that you've also been pushing towards is to get the music rights back from your dad's music. How has that process been? And where are things right now with that? Isaac Hayes III 32:34 So it's just a matter of time. I mean, the good thing about Copyright Law is they expire, they return to the original authors. And so we're just in the process right now of terminating so much as a case publishing, we've terminated all the songs that he wrote from 1963, all the way up to 1968 into going into 69. So there's, you know, his entire songwriting catalog as a songwriter we haven't even gotten to the Isaac Hayes era, but we've terminated you know, one of his biggest works was a song called Hold On, I'm Comin' that he wrote for Sam & Dave that gets used at commercials all the time. So that process is moving along, you know, very steadily and now there's new opportunities and new deals for my family, or equitable opportunities, and the ownership is ours. So it's a great spot to be in right now. Dan Runcie 33:19 That's good to hear. I mean, because we've definitely know how tough it can be especially on your side, whether you're an estate manager or you're just more broadly trying to get it back for the sake of your family or loved one so that's good to hear. And on the estate side of it, I know you do manage that. Definitely heard a number of stories of different people that have managed estates over the years, both the good that comes from it, but also some of the challenges as well. Can you talk a little bit about how your experience has been on that front? Isaac Hayes III 33:48 I mean, well, I was looking at it,I look at a brand, it’s like a hot air balloon. And so the higher the balloon goes, the more people see it. So it's a job I'm going to stay to get that balloon as high as possible before you try to do things so people say well, how come there hasn't been a you know, a movie on your father I was like, well, there's more work the balloon gotta get a little higher. We got to, people got to see a brand and build it. So it's been tough because I think a couple things like icons, black icons are not always held to the same standard or represented in media the way that white icons are. And what I mean by that and that's the job above actually the black community to uplift its own icons to do so. And when I tell people all the time I said, look, you go to the grocery store, and you can practice this exercise, you can go, you can go to the grocery store, and you're always going to see one of four people in a magazine at all times. You're going to see John Wayne, Ronald Reagan, Elvis Presley, or Babe Ruth, at any time. And all of those guys have been dead for quite a long time, but they never let you forget their icons. They never let you forget Audrey Hepburn, they never let you forget Marilyn Monroe, they keep their legacy and their icons immortalized by continuing to push them and elevate them through media. Now in black culture, we typically do that for a period of time, but you don't typically see Dorothy Dandridge, or Sammy Davis Jr., or James Brown, or Martin Luther King, or people on covers of magazines just cause right, it's usually in some drama that, you know, some tabloid is trying to bring back up, but just for the sake of doing an amazing pictorial on, you know, Ray Charles, and to let that continue to uplift his legacy. That doesn't happen that often. So we have to take better care of our black icons, and continue to uplift them in media to do so. Dan Runcie 35:32 That's a good point about the same faces you already see in the magazines, or you go to the grocery store. I think all the names you mentioned are the ones that you often see. On the movie point, though, I do hope that we do get in Isaac Hayes movie, at some point. I know you're saying that, you know, these days, you got to wait for the bubble to get a little bit bigger. But it's one of those things we're in this moment now where you're seeing, I'm sure you've seen it, too, so many music documented, whether it's documentaries, or the bio pics themselves, and some of them are a lot better than others. But you still know that they all had a ton of money poured into them. So hopefully, while this run is going on, that bubble can meet and the stars can align to make something like that happen. Isaac Hayes III 36:14 I think so. I mean, we definitely have a documentary that must be told before feature film, I think a biographical nonfiction version of what really happened and what my dad's life was really like is a story that I think should be told first, and then we could dramaticize that and infantilize that in a way that I think brings young people and old people together. And I have that in my mind of how we merge all these genres together, these generations together to really tell the story of Isaac Hayes because I think he's probably the most relatable icon to the current generation of any icon that's passed away, by the way that he looked, by the way the type of music he created because I'm like, it's like, there's not too many people that still wear clothes like Michael Jackson, or wear their hair like James Brown, but there's several black men with bald heads and beards and sunglasses still in 2022. So the relatability is there. And then in terms of evergreen music, it's just like people continue to sample him to make new records. So I think he has the most connectable thread to the youth coming from his generation to now so we're definitely going to capitalize on that, expand more on that in 2022 and 2023. Dan Runcie 37:32 Who would you want to play him in a biopic? Isaac Hayes III 37:27 Ah, I've said this before. Just off first glance to the surface is probably Jonathan Majors, right? I like Jonathan Majors. Jonathan Majors is a phenomenal actor. I looked at him, I said he could play him. But then there's like, you know, you never know. I mean, there's always this sea of amazing, you know, talent out there, especially from people... I always get trouble in saying it but let me tell you something, the UK Brits, the Brits got those actors. Like they come from places like, I'm like, most of the shows I've watched on TV, the actors are British, like what? Like Snowfall? Like All American? The Walking Dead? It's like, yeah, those are the guys that you wouldn't know. They're so good at what they do. You would have never thought that but they're so classically trained. And then there's some, you know, amazing actors in the States as well. But you know, even Daniel Kaluuya. I'm like, oh, man, all these dudes? Brits be crushing it. So who knows, though, but Jonathan majors is an amazing actor. And I think he could do a great job portraying Isaac Hayes. Dan Runcie 38:24 He's a good one. I'm excited to see what he does at this Creed movie coming up. And the range is there, you saw his Marvel thing, and I've done of course, Last Black Man in San Francisco. He's so good. Isaac Hayes III 38:35 Yeah, I'm like, What's he gonna do a Ceed? I'm like, okay, what's going on? Like Creed 3? That's gonna be a good one right there. Dan Runcie 38:41 I know. I know. Yeah.  Isaac Hayes III 38:41 It's going to be interesting. Dan Runcie 38:42 That will be good. Isaac Hayes III 38:42 Yeah. Dan Runcie 38:43 Daniel Kaluuya, of course, I think he's one of the best under 40 actors. I mean, period. He's one of the best folks under 40 we got right now. So I mean, obviously, what he did with Fred Hampton was amazing. So I think he would be legit, but it's good that you brought up the British piece because it's one of these things where we both know, if that happened, people would be you know, all up in arms like they are about a lot of black British folks that play American actors, thought or based off of American icons. But it's like you yourself as the person representing the estate in the family is like no, I would endorse this based on what you're seeing. We know how that conversation would go. Isaac Hayes III 39:24 Oh, yeah, no. Yeah, I think again, like I said, Jonathan Majors was the first in mind that I had. And again, you never know who's out there by way, like, even like I watched it just by actors in general. I watch Winning Time, the story about the Lakers and the guy that plays Magic Johnson, they just found him like, Dan Runcie 39:37 He's so good. Isaac Hayes III 39:40 He's so perfect for the role. That's what I'm saying. Like there's always the right person for the role, it's out there. You got to find them. But it’s just like I said, I don't think he's, he hadn't been in anything, I think, a lot of stuff. I don't think he'd done a lot of stuff. But they were like, it's this guy in California, like, give them a go. See, when we came in the room, he smiled. It did that. Like, it's Magic Johnson. He's killing it. So yeah, you always know that and I think, and also, here's another dream of mine, though, is I do want another Shaft film. I want another Shaft film with a modern Shaft, right? I want a modern, you know, modern day Shaft and the person that I think that should play that is Mahershala. Ali. I would love to see Mahershala Ali as a new Shaft do that. I know he's about to be Blade, his plate is full. So but again, yeah, I think Shaft go modernize is something else to do, such a big part of my dad's career. So and I think there will always be an appetite to have a black, you know, superhero in the sense of saying, a person that stood up for his community and fought crime and as a stand up black man. So I think there's always the ability to do that, too. Dan Runcie 40:41 Oh, yeah, I think he would be great at that type of role. And I think that Blade definitely gives you some of that imagery of, you know, the black trench coat and everything. And the whole vibe, too. But yeah, I think that'll be good. Isaac Hayes III 40:53 Sure. Dan Runcie 40:53 Even what artists would, you know, cover the version that your dad did, and you know, with that, I mean, thinking about that, too, for the song perspective?  Isaac Hayes III 41:03 Yeah, we have a lot of unreleased, I have a lot of unreleased Isaac Hayes music that was recorded around the same time. And trust me, it's some Shaft D stuff in there, some stuff. Like I've been holding on to it for years now. Like I think I transferred those masters in 2014. For eight years, I haven't even really let some of that stuff. Like I said, they won't call about another Shaft at some point. And I'm gonna be ready. I'm gonna be ready to let people check it out. Dan Runcie 41:25 Oh, yeah. You know, the call is coming soon, especially the way that content works right now, the call's coming soon.  Isaac Hayes III 41:30 Absolutely. Dan Runcie 41:31 Well, Isaac, this has been great. It's been great to chat, hear more about Fanbase, hear about some of the other things you're working on with regards to the estate. But before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug or let the Trapital audience know about? Isaac Hayes III 41:45 Of course, to download Fanbase, we have a new version of audio, we have audio chat rooms that are monetized. So a new version of audio is coming in, like, probably, like a couple of weeks, we have our version of TikTok and Reels called Flicks so you can make short form video. And we have stories that are for followers and subscribers. So you can put your stories behind a subscription paywall as well. And I think that's something that's amazing, too. baseLike I said, monetizing content for everybody is just something that I think the world is gonna be all immersive in in the future, say right now is that kind of that friction point where it's like, is it really going to be a thing? And people are going to resist it at first, but once it becomes part of the norm the same way with all these other media verticals, our social media is just a next vertical for subscription. Dan Runcie 42:46 Definitely, we see where it's all heading right. 10 years ago, people thought it was gonna be crazy, like, oh, you're gonna pay people at social media to do posts and now influencers do it on the regular. It's just a matter of timing, platform, and everything. And I feel like you got the right mix. Isaac Hayes III 42:40 Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Dan Runcie 42:42 Thanks, Isaac. This is great. Appreciate it. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. In less than three years, the Fanbase social content app has raised six million dollars (without traditional venture capital) and is inching toward the one-million user mark. How did co-founder Issac Hayes III take the app from nothing all the way to this? If you ask him, his life spent in the cut-throat music industry gave him the inspiration AND business chops to thrive within the tech space. 


As the son of legendary R&B artist Isaac Hayes, he was made well aware from the get-go of the exploitative practices by record labels toward musicians. Isaac would go on to notice similar exploitation with social media giants and their users, who were creating content and driving attention, but reaping little of the billions of dollars in revenues being reported by the same corporations.


Fanbase is changing those optics. On the app, users can post content — written, photo, video, audio chat, and live stream — for a subscription fee. As Isaac sees it, “monetization for every user is the wave of the future.” For a full glimpse of how Isaac is building Fanbase into a disruptive social media force, you’ll want to tune into our interview. Here’s what we covered in the episode:



[4:10] Fanbase Raised $6 Million From Crowdfunding — Not Venture Capital

[6:34] The Most Important Investors Of Fanbase 

[8:10] Making Investing More Accessible

[10:30] How Fanbase Is Acquiring New Customers

[11:59] Fanbase’s Biggest Business Advantage (Not What You Think)

[14:13] “Monetization For Every User Is The Wave Of The Future”

[16:18] Why Artists Shouldn’t Sell Their Catalogs

[22:23] What Isaac Loves About Technology

[23:40] What Does Fanbase’s Future Fundraising Timeline Look Like?

[26:38] Size Of Fanbase’s Team Now & In Near-Future

[27:51] Atlanta’s Underrated Scene Outside Hip-Hp

[30:39] Isaac’s Influence For Creating Fanbase

[32:34] Getting The Music Rights Back For His Dad

[33:48] Keeping Black Icons Relevant Post-Death

[36:14] Will There Ever Be An Isaac Hayes Movie?

[41:45] Fanbase’s New Features


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Isaac Hayes III, @isaachayes3 

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

_______________

Transcription

Isaac Hayes III 00:00

I think monetization for every user is the wave of the future. I keep saying it, I think that there isn't a person right now that isn't subscribed to at least one thing. And one subscription becomes more and more the common vernacular of how we engage with content. Social media is the last, you know, frontier that's left. You know, when you think about TV and film with Hulu, and Netflix, and Disney+, and music with Spotify and Apple Music, and print media with Forbes, and The New York Times, and Billboard, and then productivity software like Adobe Premiere Pro, Microsoft Word. Like, you don't... You're subscribed to something. You're probably subscribed to an app on your phone that allows you to edit your photos. And so subscriptions are just the language. And so I think that's going to be the language of the future moving forward.


Dan Runcie 00:53

Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's guest is Isaac Hayes III. He's the founder and CEO of Fanbase. Fanbase is a company that helps creators better monetize the content they put out. And on Fanbase's platform, followers can subscribe for $3.99 a month to get all of the exclusive content from their favorite creators, or they can follow creators and they can spread love. Love is the primary form of engagement on Fanbase, and it's how creators monetize. The more likes and love they get, the more revenue that they get into their pockets. So Fanbase addresses a lot of the challenges that people have had about social media more broadly. And in this chat, Isaac and I talk about what the journey has been like. He's been able to raise $6 million through crowdfunding. He did it through this platform called StartEngine, and he's had many well-known investors on board, folks like Snoop Dogg, Charlamagne The God, Kandi Burruss, Chamillionaire, Roland Martin, and more. So we talked about his decision to go that path as opposed to the traditional VC route. Isaac and I also talked about the trend of music publishing and the catalog sales that have been happening, and why he actually thinks that a lot of musicians should not be selling their catalogs. He is not the only person to say this, but these voices have been a little bit quieter in this narrative. So it was great to hear his perspective on this. And then we also talked about the other hat that Isaac wears. He is the manager of his late father's estate. His father is the legendary singer, Isaac Hayes. So we talked about what that experience has been like managing the estate, and how his father's experience in the music industry had formed a lot of the work that Isaac Hayes III himself wants to create and the opportunities he wants to do through Fanbase. We also talked about what an Isaac Hayes biopic would look like, and who Isaac Hayes III would want to play his father in a movie. I think he had a pretty good answer. I'm a big fan of this person. So I think you'll enjoy who we said. We also talked about Atlanta's impact, and just how influential that city has been in culture and for Fanbase as well, we had a great conversation, and I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. Here's my chat with Isaac Hayes III. All right, today, we got Isaac Hayes III with us. He's the co-founder and CEO of Fanbase, an app that helps creators monetize the content that they put out into the world and get what's there. So Isaac, thank you for joining. And it'd be great to just hear from you how things were going with you and how things been going with Fanbase. What's the latest been?


Isaac Hayes III 03:46

Man, we just closed our second seed round of $2.6 million on StartEngine. So we've raised a total of $6 million in less than a year. It's been phenomenal. We're adding a lot of amazing functionality to Fanbase. And new features are rolling out in the next couple of weeks, a new version of audio, which is one of our flagship features on the platform that's monetized for all users. So it's an exciting time at Fanbase.


Dan Runcie 04:10

Can you talk to me about your fundraising process a bit because I know that you crowdfunded the 6 billion. You were able to do it at a few different stages. But what made you go that route, as opposed to the more traditional venture capital fundraising?


Isaac Hayes III 04:25

Two things: one was just a recommendation by a really good mentor of mine to do so. And it was in COVID, because, you know, we couldn't move. And I had a real kind of like off-putting conversation with a VC. And it immediately reminded me of the music business. And so in my mind, I immediately thought, okay, these seeds are like the label. And I'm like an artist trying to get a record deal. And so starting to gave me the opportunity to go independent, and sell my shares out of the trunk of my car to the tune of $6 million, which gives us better leverage, and lets people know that we don't need venture capital to raise serious cash. And so that's really how it, you know, wind up that being that way.


Dan Runcie 05:06

Yeah, I heard the comparisons from a lot of people. And I think that the thing you often hear from folks that do crowdfund is that it can take a lot of time to get there. But at least from what I've seen from your process, you were able to get several thousand investors in a pretty short amount of time. So what were the steps from that perspective to keep the momentum hot, and to make sure that you had a strong pipeline?


Isaac Hayes III 05:29

I think the best thing is, when you're, I think the biggest benefit was the fact that it's a product that the investors can actually use in real time. So it's not like they're giving to something, and they're investing in something and not knowing what the product will be or what it does. They're a part of it in real time. And it's something that's relatable to them. If I go and invest in a tech startup that does something to do with aerospace engines, cool, when I'm not with it every day. I just sit back and hope that they make the best decision possible with my investment. But Fanbase is something that I think is more personal to people because of where we are social media. So I think that gave it a lot of energy, because people are a part of the process, and they feel part of the platform and part of this journey together in real time. So it's something that you can use, you know, and then who better, I got to say, to give actual equity in a social media startup into the users themselves that will actually make the platform grow. 


Dan Runcie 06:20

And I think you're able to find some influential folks with that too, right? You got Kandi Burruss, you got Charlamagne. And of course with their platforms, they're able to help amplify and can connect you with other investors or just other creators, given what they've done.


Isaac Hayes III 06:34

Yeah, but we honestly haven't used them in that fashion. And I actually don't typically want them or to do that particularly yet. And the reason being is because I like the fact that they are silent in their action, because a lot of times when people of notoriety step out in a space where they're invested in a platform and may turn other people off, that feel like well, I didn't get that opportunity. And in social media, it's more about the users. The most important investors on Fanbase, and we have some really big, big name investors, the most important investors on Fanbase are the actual users, the larger, broader, probably a sea of 8000 plus individuals that have put their money in and actually use the platform on a day-today basis, who will be those day-to-day, you know, hardcore super users. But relationships and those investors that are of a high stature like a Snoop Dogg and stuff like that, their time will come later. They all, I know, they all know exactly when they're going to get on and when they're going to turn the engine up on the platform. So we're just, you know, we're focused on the core audience and the core investors of the platform being what we really focus on at Fanbase.


Dan Runcie 07:41

And with 8000 investors, you mentioned $6 million raised, it makes it pretty affordable to, you know, for people to be able to have a stake, because I think that's one of the challenges that you often see from institutional money that comes through or some of the minimum buy-ins for some investments is that it isn't always the most accessible for folks that may be interested. So I think you're able to at least allow that to happen given the amount of people that were able to invest for the total amount you have.


Isaac Hayes III 08:10

Absolutely, I mean, the accredited investor rule has kind of been a barrier for all people, you know. I don't care what race you are, if it's a law that's been in effect since 1933, it's just only given opportunities to rich people to actually invest in early stage companies. So you're coming out of the Great Depression, if you ever wonder why none of your family members got a call to invest in IBM, or Microsoft, or Apple, or Facebook, and so on and so forth. It's this accredited investor rule that is given all the best opportunities of wealth to the wealthy. And so I love the fact that Barack Obama and Joe Biden pass the Jobs Act and allow people like myself to go to my peers and the public to actually have the same opportunity that VCs and accredited investors have to get a piece of the American dream by investing the same way that all these other people have been able to do for 83 years.


Dan Runcie 09:01

I think we're gonna see the rules continue to break down on that. I know now they have that flexible option where I think if you take the Series 63 or 7 or one of those tests, then you can become accredited. So that's one way to pass the income thresholds. But I feel like even that is probably going to break down at some point. That just feels like where everything is at it.


Isaac Hayes III 09:22

It should. I mean, one of the seed investors in Uber, a guy by the name of Oren Michels only invested $5,000 into Uber, but when it IPO in 2019 is 5000 was worth 24 million. And I'm like, well, how come we can go to Vegas and spend $5,000 on the crap table or go buy $5,000 worth of lottery tickets, but I can't invest in Uber. And I think that's the real crime is that, you know, it's okay that if you go blow your money gambling in that fashion, but not gambling in in the fashion of investing your money in a startup like Uber, which wound up being very, very successful, so the rules have to change and platforms like StartEngine are breaking down those barriers.


Dan Runcie 9:59

Right, especially when so many other people using it and giving these startups their early validation are the ones that believe and see in the future. So I feel like those dots got to connect eventually. But...


Isaac Hayes III 10:10

It will for sure.


Dan Runcie 10:11

Going back to Fanbase itself and how things are, I read that you have a goal be able to hit a million users in June. And it would be great to hear what your strategy has been in terms of acquiring customers. What's been the most effective thing that you've done to get more creators and users onto the platform?


Isaac Hayes III 10:30

I think the biggest thing is actually just word of mouth, right? It's the quality of the product. And then I think we're in a very unique time, a very opportunistic time for platforms like Fanbase to emerge, because of this transition from users wanting more access to their following, they're getting tired of words like shadowbanning and content suppression and stuff like that. And algorithms are becoming the enemy of the common user on the platform, or even the super user on the platform, because platforms typically are profitable off ad revenue. And so for that to happen, you can't simultaneously provide visibility for every user on the platform, and then run ads at the same time. That's counterproductive to the business model. Because if that's the case, then the people that buy ads would just go to the users themselves and run ads that way. And then you would have no business model. And so Fanbase is just you know, emerging at a time right now that I think the conversation is different. And ad based, ad-based revenue social media platforms are going to continue to change that puts us right, at the right time to continue to grow. So word of mouth. And then timing is just helping us, and then we have an amazing creative advisory board of young people. There's some other strategic partnerships, and I'm really excited to begin working on that, they’re really rooted in community and rooted in the culture of what we want on Fanbase, which is young, centennial people of all races, ages, backgrounds, creating content and monetize.


Dan Runcie 11:56

What are some of those partnerships? Anything you can share with us?


Isaac Hayes III 11:59

No, because... And the reason why I can't is because they're really savvy in the way there's things that I think, social media startups, I'll say this, like, I think Fanbase has the best advantage to become a social media unicorn by simply being in Atlanta. And what I mean by that is like Atlanta, is the epicenter of black culture in the United States of America. And what we know about Black culture is Black culture is pop culture. And we know about pop culture, pop culture is what drives social media. So therefore, if you're right at the epicenter of where the viral challenge is going to happen, or the newest, funny influencer, or the dance challenge, or the artist is at, being able to have them be part of Fanbase, and part of that community gives us a really big advantage. So some of those partnerships are rooted in culture, and community, and music. I can't announce them or anything, because it's really dope, though, the way that you have an advantage to do so. And I think a lot of the other platforms know that, which is why they kind of try to pivot in and out. And also try to acquire those users from Atlanta, those the talent, they're like, oh, let's pay them. Let's try to get them, you know, in the same way, but I think Fanbase just has a little bit more of an advantage.


Dan Runcie 13:09

I hear that and thinking, too, about making sure that the talent gets paid fairly. I think that's been the underlying theme for so much of why you wanted to create this. There have been so many people that we've seen have become viral sensations, or creators who have a strong following, but being able to really tap into that in a meaningful way hasn't always worked. And in some cases, it's everyone else making money instead of them. I think you would have that story about the ghetto Spider-Man and how the person behind that had blown up, but he's the one calling you like, hey, what do I do? Like, is anything that can help here? And you think about that, and you just think about all of these creators, whether it's folks on TikTok, that are, like the guy that does the hands video, you know, he is, you know, one of the biggest creators, but he isn't anywhere on that Forbes list of the top creators. So I feel like you’ll be able to bridge that connection of, okay, there's clearly a market gap here and how we can have a platform that can close that and how big of an opportunity that is.


Isaac Hayes III 14:13

It's an enormous opportunity. I think monetization for every user is the wave of the future. I keep saying it. I think that there isn't a person right now that isn't subscribed to at least one thing. And one subscription becomes more and more the common vernacular of how we engage with content. Social media is the last, you know, frontier that's left. You know, when you think about TV and film with Hulu, and Netflix, and Disney+, and music with Spotify and Apple Music, and print media with Forbes, and The New York Times, and Billboard, and then productivity software like Adobe Premiere Pro, Microsoft Word. Like, you don't... You're subscribed to something. You're probably subscribed to an app on your phone that allows you to edit your photos. And so subscriptions are just the language. And so I think that's going to be the language of the future moving forward. And so I think that's going to be the language of the future moving forward. And it just, it gives everybody a chance to make money as opposed to the people that the apps highlight to be most successful, because they're the best vehicles for ads to run in between their content. Think about that, like the larger audience on, the greater audience of a platform like Tiktok, since there's really only one kind of like channel. It's literally just a platform of short form video. So the wider audience on their demographic on that platform is a white audience just based off of the United States. So therefore, it would behoove them to have bigger white stars to run ads to monetize that larger audience. So that's what they kind of have to focus on. So Fanbase doesn't worry about that. It doesn't matter who you are. Everybody can be a superstar on the platform.


Dan Runcie 15:42

Yeah. And that piece about the subscriptions as well, it just, everyone having that and then seeing who can profit off of it. It also makes me think of an exchange you and I had had recently, we're talking about what's happening right now in the music industry and these catalog valuations, too. You had shared perspective that artists actually should not be selling their or publishing their catalogs, because how much room streaming has to grow. And you just look at some of the demographics on that. What's your take on it? And how much bigger do you think this market will get?


Isaac Hayes III 16:18

Man, I think it'd be massive. Like I said, at the time, last year was 400, I think it was 450 million people were on music streaming services this year, it's like 525. It's jumped up. That's like, you know, almost like 7 to 9% of all the people with the ability to have streaming services like Apple Music or Spotify on their phone, have them over the next decade by 2030, I think it'll be close to a billion people, so that, that'll be almost a little over double what is available. So imagine and that's only that's only like 1 billion, it's less than a billion, not even a billion people a music streaming services, but there's 6.3 billion people on the planet with smartphones, you know, satellite Wi Fi, satellite internet is going to be something that is going to actually be more connected, as opposed to where wires can go. You know, satellites can go to provide people Internet, and then with video, like, there's like 222 million people on Netflix. And there's 6.3 billion people, the available market share is massive. So I mean, as big as a company is Netflix is, they don't even have, you know, they don't even have 7% of the market of available people that can get on their platform, it's more like three and a half. So think of the growth potential that Netflix can have or anybody that's providing subscriptions via content they can have. That's why we're focused on person-to-person subscription content, which I think will trump everything in the future. 


Dan Runcie 17:42

Yeah, it's interesting, because I think there's these two trends happening, because one of the reasons everyone's buying the catalogs is exactly what you said, people see the upside, were streaming's going n the other side, you're also seeing, whether it's Netflix or Spotify, the rapid growth that they may have had once starting to slow down a little bit. So you do think about, yes, you know, a service like Facebook, if we think of that as being like the most ubiquitous thing out there, you know, several billion people on it, but it's also because it's free, right? So it's like, there's some number of what are the total number of people that will be willing to pay $999 in the US for music streaming service, or whatever that price difference may be in their respective place. We still haven't gotten there yet. And I'm curious, you know what that actual number will be. And it's just so hard to know, because I think some people think it's going to be a lot higher. And there's other people that think that we’re close to that peak. So who knows.


Isaac Hayes III 18:38

I don't think we're anywhere near the peak because it's the nature, the market will grow as the youth grow. And so as kids are more like, kids are trained and kind of use to subscriptions, and virtual currency, and app purchases, it's that they've known that their whole lives. I remember when I was first discussing building Fanbase, I spoke to someone that was in their 30s, they were like, I'd never subscribed to another person, right? Why would I do that.? And then I was in the Apple Store, and I just randomly asked this 20, I think the young lady was probably like, 21 years old. I think I asked how old she was. She says I'm 21, I was like, if you could subscribe or what her favorite group was, and my first inclination that she was going to name a very famous artist, and she named an indie band, right? What's your favorite artists? I bet you're gonna name somebody like, you know, Ariana Grande. I said, if you could subscribe to that person for $3.99 a month, that band for $3.99 a month, and they would post videos and they were working on their album or exclusive photos and stuff like that.Maybe, they might let you buy, you know, tickets to their show before anybody else, would you do that? And her answer was like, fuck yeah, $3.99. And I'm like, that's when I was, okay, I gotta do this because they don't care. There was, I remember, there were legions of people that swore they wanted to own a mp3. And I'm like, man, it's $10 a month to listen to everything that's ever been created. Only your mp3 is out of here. That's a done deal. So I think the market will go as the youth decide. And the youth are showing their propensity to spend, or virtually, you know, their Cashapp and Venmo and PayPal, their NFT's, their crypto, they're all in that space. So I think it's going to actually explode way beyond what it is now.


Dan Runcie 20:13

Yeah, that's a good point. The other thing, too, is that there are just so many other services beyond the digital streaming providers that are offering some type of music experience that's going to drive up the platform, right? Like it doesn't always have to be streaming. It can be in app purchases, the same way that, you know, these kids go wild about V-bucks or whatever it is in these games, it's going to be the same thing there. As more and more of these companies getting music licensing, like, we're going to see that continue to happen. So it'll be interesting.


Isaac Hayes III 20:42

I'm telling you... I'm spending money on Call of Duty to make my gun cooler or wear cooler outfit. Kids are going to spend money to have access to shoes before anybody else can, tickets before anybody else can, experiences that no one else can have for, you know, small amounts of prices, and that give them exclusivity and clout and bragging rights. Trust me, I know exactly what's going to happen.


Dan Runcie 21:07

Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Let's talk more about today's sponsor Intercept Music. The company is on a mission to empower independent artists everywhere. This is a tale as old as time. Artists and labels have often had to choose between their creative freedom and autonomy and access to marketing and distribution that would catapult their careers. Well, that's no longer the choice, especially today, people can have both and Intercept is one of the companies making that happen. It offers a fully managed advertising and promotional service allows you to distribute your music and you have the opportunity to sell merchandise through its branded online stores. This is your one-stop shop to manage your career and take it to that next level. As an artist or label, Intercept can help you unshackle your monetization opportunities and, as Method Man said himself, you can use this platform and keep 100% of your shit. To learn more, go to interceptmusic.com and learn how this company is helping independent artists like you take their careers to the next level. You mentioned Call of Duty for yourself. Are there any other personal areas that you've been personally where, you know, attracted to, whether it's a single game or a solo thing where, you know, a majority of your attention has gone to?


Isaac Hayes III 22:23

Just call... I only play one game, Call of Duty. I've been playing Call of Duty for like 12 years, I like content. So I used to fly drones, like, all the time. Like, not just for the fun of flying, but the fun of capturing the actual content and creating content. But other than that, I mean... Social media is like, it's a passion of mine because I liked the connectivity. And I liked the potential. I liked the potential of being disruptive. And where we can create unique experiences via technology. That's one thing I love about technology, technology doesn't give my brain like a limit. I have conversations with my CTO and say, hey, you know, can we do this? And he's like, the question is not if we can do it, it's just how long it'll take us to do it. How many man hours? Well, we could do it. And that's the greatest feeling to have, like, can we make this do this and just do this? He's like, yeah, we could do that. But and so having like, your imagination not being limited. Only the, only limitation is your resources like man hours, and manpower, and funds. And cool. Like, I understand that part. So don't you know, don't give me $100 million dollars, move out of the way. You know, no, don't let me raise $100 million. You want to see an app, like be fly than anything you've ever seen? Fanbase is phenomenal. And we raised $6 million. Imagine what we do, and we raised 60, 600 million, it's gonna be phenomenal. That's why I'm excited. I'm like, oh, it's gonna be go time for sure.


Dan Runcie 23:40

So what does the future fundraising timeline look like for you? Where do you think you'll raise again? And how big do you think that'll be?


Isaac Hayes III 23:46

I mean, we've been getting calls, which is kind of curious, because I guess the A&R of what a VC is, their version of A&R has been starting to reach out because they see Fanbase making waves and so now, it's not me going to VCs, but it's VCs coming to us, which is better. So I feel we still have a lot of work to do in a short period of time. But I would like to raise a significant series, a somewhere, you know, in the eight figure range, really to get us, you know, in eight figure range to really get us where we need to be because there's so much involved with data and streaming and music licensing. And so these platforms have to be funded to scale and so we're gonna need it. You know, I love the notion of being able to continue to raise equity crowdfunding with people, and I think I'll find ways to continue to do that. But you also... VCs also serve a very good purpose of their knowledge, their relationships, their experience. So I'm not opposed to them. I'm just sometimes primarily opposed to the terms. So now we can have conversations that are different than that. I'm not opposed to the VCs, I'm just opposed to the terms. So sometimes we just have to work better and making sure we get fair terms by doing things on our own. 


Dan Runcie 24:54

And I think the fact that you're at the place you're at now gives you the leverage to do that, right? I think one of the reasons that the unfair terms happen more often is because the founder or the founders don't come from that place of leverage. They're more so looking for the help just from being able to be sustainable, to keep the lights on and all those things, you have that piece of it checked off, given what you've been able to do with the money you've been able to raise. So it's more so, hey, we're trying to go a bit faster. We're trying to do this, this, and this, if you want to be in it would be great. But if you don't, there's other people knocking at the door who can make this happen.


Isaac Hayes III 25:32

Yeah, I mean, writing your own path, you know, coming from the music business, I look at like, I look at percentages, so I'm on a platform called PitchBook, where I can see like, how much equity was given up for what percentage and I'm like, what, gave up what, for 39% of the company, and like, hell, oh, no, you can't do that. Because you have to be strategic. And I know, sometimes we want to get our product to market so bad. And we want it, we feel that once we get there, doesn't matter if I gave him this much, it's gonna be successful, I'm gonna be able to do this, but you have to be conservative with equity, you can't be selfish. At the same time, people have got to invest money, they're gonna want significant portions of your company. But I think the more work you do improving your model on your own, the more advantageous you are as a part of the VCs, because now you can work together. I love my team, my team is brilliant, they're smarter than I am, I'm just a big idea guy that want to make sure, wants to make sure that the colors look good, and the energy is right. And then the rest is up for us to really, you know, structure this business. So I like writing our ticket that way by being independent, as I like to say. 


Dan Runcie 26:34

So how big is the team now? And how big do you think it'll be end of this year?



Isaac Hayes III 26:38

So right now we have a team of 25 developers, and probably 15 other personnel or 40. But I think our development team would probably be 150, given a significant raise, and probably our executive team probably go from like, 15 to 30 people. So it would grow. I mean, you know, and that's with everything, running it, you know, at best case, you know, if I had it my way, because we can build faster and more simultaneous functionality. And then I love you know, being able to pay really smart people to make Fanbase do amazing things and in the right amount of time. So I'm looking forward to that though, we have a game plan to really scale up to a million users by June, it's two months. It's two months, as you know, it's April, you know, saying April 8, so we don't have that much time. But I'm looking forward to the grind.


Dan Runcie 27:30

And I also got to imagine that the Atlanta community and culture ecosystem you're around has and will continue to have so much of an impact on you. Can you talk about how beneficial it's been from that perspective? I know y'all got The Gathering Spot, and you have so many other execs there. How important has that collective been?


Isaac Hayes III 27:51

It's been invaluable, because the first conversations that I had about building a startup social media platform happened at The Gathering Spot, they were members that were in the tech space that I looked at as mentors, their names are Jewel Burks, Barry Gibbons, and Justin Dawkins. They are all accomplished tech professionals in their own right, and the fact that I could sit right next to them, like a kid, you know, being able to talk to like, talk to Michael Jordan or whoever be like, yo, how do you do this? How do you do that? How are you able to do these things, and then lending their ear and lending their voice and their information to me is invaluable. I think that was really, you know, the essence of community and Atlanta, especially in the black tech space. They're just tons of brilliant people and I've met met at those spaces, but those three individuals were like instrumental in helping me shape Fanbase to the company because they told me you know, why it's important that you have a CTO that has a stake in the in your company, why is important, like what your deck must look like, why you know, when it's a raise, how you scale, all these things that you have to bring together. And so that's the dope part about it. So the Atlanta communities are invaluable in that fashion. We're all like, there's no ceiling of what you can achieve in a city like Atlanta with black leadership. I was just telling you, I just saw a clip today about Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson being able to be elected to the Supreme Court, Symone Sanders said, if you didn't elect Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff in Georgia, that would have never happened, he wouldn't have had the votes or the leverage to do so. And so a political community that's aware, that's African American that understands how politics play in the ability for you to scale your business and city like Atlanta is invaluable. That's the probably, the biggest asset to being anybody in the city is, is probably that there's a political foundation that has been built on for over 60 years that kind of gives people the energy and the confidence to try things that no other people would try. Like Tyler Perry saying, I'm gonna build a movie studio, like L.A. & Babyface, and we're gonna bring a record company to the city, like someone like The Gathering Spot, or Pinky Cole with Slutty Vegan, or Tracey Pickett with Hairbrella. Like all these amazing startups that are coming out of Atlanta, Georgia, and have come out of Atlanta, Georgia. So it's a place for you to dream and excel.


Dan Runcie 30:02

It really is. It's remarkable just to see how much of it stems in. I think so many of you as well have roots in music and how I think that has been the core of what you all have been able to do and achieve. And it makes me think a lot about where your inspiration for why this is so important to you came from. You would obviously seen your dad's experience in the music industry and some of the challenges he had had with unfair contracts and things like that. Can you talk a bit about how that through line was for you in terms of the influence and seeing that inspire where you want to be the most impactful and how that shapes Fanbase?


Isaac Hayes III 30:39

Yeah, so I mean, as a kid, getting into the music industry, the first thing I learned, before I learned about music notes, I learned about music publishing, and it's just because that's what your family's gonna tell you is like, look, all this creative stuff is great, but know your business, right? Because you can get taken advantage of, don't get caught up in it. It's a joy, like creating music, being a creator is the best feeling in the world, making songs that people want to dance to, and that are part of their lives. And never forget, if you don't have that business, it's going to be something that you're going to wind up having a bitter taste in your mouth about because you've created all this great music, but do you really benefit from it, people that exploit you. So content ownership, ownership of your content, exploiting your content to your benefit has always been something that's been in the back of my mind. So that's why I say I've approached tech with a music industry mindset and nothing gets grimier than in the music business. So like I said, you know, tech is nothing compared to, like, the record business. So if you can handle a record business, you can handle tech, because the deals are what the deals are. The deals are straightforward, you know, the music history just makes up their rules. And so I had a great teacher and my father and my mom who just taught me about the business. So I think that helps a lot. It gave me, it gave me quite a bit of perspective of why artists deserve to get paid more for the content they create. And that's any user on social media. Those are the people that are making these dances go viral. Also the people that are being funny, those are people that are bringing really great thought-provoking content that gets you thinking, get you inspired, get you to vote, get you to, you know, to protest. So we have to, you know, make sure that those people have an opportunity to really make sure that they monetize their energy in that way.


Dan Runcie 32:16

Definitely, and I hear you on how the music industry, there's so there could be so much lack of clarity on these things. I know one of the things that you've also been pushing towards is to get the music rights back from your dad's music. How has that process been? And where are things right now with that?


Isaac Hayes III 32:34

So it's just a matter of time. I mean, the good thing about Copyright Law is they expire, they return to the original authors. And so we're just in the process right now of terminating so much as a case publishing, we've terminated all the songs that he wrote from 1963, all the way up to 1968 into going into 69. So there's, you know, his entire songwriting catalog as a songwriter we haven't even gotten to the Isaac Hayes era, but we've terminated you know, one of his biggest works was a song called Hold On, I'm Comin' that he wrote for Sam & Dave that gets used at commercials all the time. So that process is moving along, you know, very steadily and now there's new opportunities and new deals for my family, or equitable opportunities, and the ownership is ours. So it's a great spot to be in right now.


Dan Runcie 33:19

That's good to hear. I mean, because we've definitely know how tough it can be especially on your side, whether you're an estate manager or you're just more broadly trying to get it back for the sake of your family or loved one so that's good to hear. And on the estate side of it, I know you do manage that. Definitely heard a number of stories of different people that have managed estates over the years, both the good that comes from it, but also some of the challenges as well. Can you talk a little bit about how your experience has been on that front?


Isaac Hayes III 33:48

I mean, well, I was looking at it,I look at a brand, it’s like a hot air balloon. And so the higher the balloon goes, the more people see it. So it's a job I'm going to stay to get that balloon as high as possible before you try to do things so people say well, how come there hasn't been a you know, a movie on your father I was like, well, there's more work the balloon gotta get a little higher. We got to, people got to see a brand and build it. So it's been tough because I think a couple things like icons, black icons are not always held to the same standard or represented in media the way that white icons are. And what I mean by that and that's the job above actually the black community to uplift its own icons to do so. And when I tell people all the time I said, look, you go to the grocery store, and you can practice this exercise, you can go, you can go to the grocery store, and you're always going to see one of four people in a magazine at all times. You're going to see John Wayne, Ronald Reagan, Elvis Presley, or Babe Ruth, at any time. And all of those guys have been dead for quite a long time, but they never let you forget their icons. They never let you forget Audrey Hepburn, they never let you forget Marilyn Monroe, they keep their legacy and their icons immortalized by continuing to push them and elevate them through media. Now in black culture, we typically do that for a period of time, but you don't typically see Dorothy Dandridge, or Sammy Davis Jr., or James Brown, or Martin Luther King, or people on covers of magazines just cause right, it's usually in some drama that, you know, some tabloid is trying to bring back up, but just for the sake of doing an amazing pictorial on, you know, Ray Charles, and to let that continue to uplift his legacy. That doesn't happen that often. So we have to take better care of our black icons, and continue to uplift them in media to do so.


Dan Runcie 35:32

That's a good point about the same faces you already see in the magazines, or you go to the grocery store. I think all the names you mentioned are the ones that you often see. On the movie point, though, I do hope that we do get in Isaac Hayes movie, at some point. I know you're saying that, you know, these days, you got to wait for the bubble to get a little bit bigger. But it's one of those things we're in this moment now where you're seeing, I'm sure you've seen it, too, so many music documented, whether it's documentaries, or the bio pics themselves, and some of them are a lot better than others. But you still know that they all had a ton of money poured into them. So hopefully, while this run is going on, that bubble can meet and the stars can align to make something like that happen.


Isaac Hayes III 36:14

I think so. I mean, we definitely have a documentary that must be told before feature film, I think a biographical nonfiction version of what really happened and what my dad's life was really like is a story that I think should be told first, and then we could dramaticize that and infantilize that in a way that I think brings young people and old people together. And I have that in my mind of how we merge all these genres together, these generations together to really tell the story of Isaac Hayes because I think he's probably the most relatable icon to the current generation of any icon that's passed away, by the way that he looked, by the way the type of music he created because I'm like, it's like, there's not too many people that still wear clothes like Michael Jackson, or wear their hair like James Brown, but there's several black men with bald heads and beards and sunglasses still in 2022. So the relatability is there. And then in terms of evergreen music, it's just like people continue to sample him to make new records. So I think he has the most connectable thread to the youth coming from his generation to now so we're definitely going to capitalize on that, expand more on that in 2022 and 2023.


Dan Runcie 37:32

Who would you want to play him in a biopic?


Isaac Hayes III 37:27

Ah, I've said this before. Just off first glance to the surface is probably Jonathan Majors, right? I like Jonathan Majors. Jonathan Majors is a phenomenal actor. I looked at him, I said he could play him. But then there's like, you know, you never know. I mean, there's always this sea of amazing, you know, talent out there, especially from people... I always get trouble in saying it but let me tell you something, the UK Brits, the Brits got those actors. Like they come from places like, I'm like, most of the shows I've watched on TV, the actors are British, like what? Like Snowfall? Like All American? The Walking Dead? It's like, yeah, those are the guys that you wouldn't know. They're so good at what they do. You would have never thought that but they're so classically trained. And then there's some, you know, amazing actors in the States as well. But you know, even Daniel Kaluuya. I'm like, oh, man, all these dudes? Brits be crushing it. So who knows, though, but Jonathan majors is an amazing actor. And I think he could do a great job portraying Isaac Hayes.


Dan Runcie 38:24

He's a good one. I'm excited to see what he does at this Creed movie coming up. And the range is there, you saw his Marvel thing, and I've done of course, Last Black Man in San Francisco. He's so good.


Isaac Hayes III 38:35

Yeah, I'm like, What's he gonna do a Ceed? I'm like, okay, what's going on? Like Creed 3? That's gonna be a good one right there.


Dan Runcie 38:41

I know. I know. Yeah. 


Isaac Hayes III 38:41

It's going to be interesting.


Dan Runcie 38:42

That will be good.


Isaac Hayes III 38:42

Yeah.


Dan Runcie 38:43

Daniel Kaluuya, of course, I think he's one of the best under 40 actors. I mean, period. He's one of the best folks under 40 we got right now. So I mean, obviously, what he did with Fred Hampton was amazing. So I think he would be legit, but it's good that you brought up the British piece because it's one of these things where we both know, if that happened, people would be you know, all up in arms like they are about a lot of black British folks that play American actors, thought or based off of American icons. But it's like you yourself as the person representing the estate in the family is like no, I would endorse this based on what you're seeing. We know how that conversation would go.


Isaac Hayes III 39:24

Oh, yeah, no. Yeah, I think again, like I said, Jonathan Majors was the first in mind that I had. And again, you never know who's out there by way, like, even like I watched it just by actors in general. I watch Winning Time, the story about the Lakers and the guy that plays Magic Johnson, they just found him like,


Dan Runcie 39:37

He's so good.


Isaac Hayes III 39:40

He's so perfect for the role. That's what I'm saying. Like there's always the right person for the role, it's out there. You got to find them. But it’s just like I said, I don't think he's, he hadn't been in anything, I think, a lot of stuff. I don't think he'd done a lot of stuff. But they were like, it's this guy in California, like, give them a go. See, when we came in the room, he smiled. It did that. Like, it's Magic Johnson. He's killing it. So yeah, you always know that and I think, and also, here's another dream of mine, though, is I do want another Shaft film. I want another Shaft film with a modern Shaft, right? I want a modern, you know, modern day Shaft and the person that I think that should play that is Mahershala. Ali. I would love to see Mahershala Ali as a new Shaft do that. I know he's about to be Blade, his plate is full. So but again, yeah, I think Shaft go modernize is something else to do, such a big part of my dad's career. So and I think there will always be an appetite to have a black, you know, superhero in the sense of saying, a person that stood up for his community and fought crime and as a stand up black man. So I think there's always the ability to do that, too.


Dan Runcie 40:41

Oh, yeah, I think he would be great at that type of role. And I think that Blade definitely gives you some of that imagery of, you know, the black trench coat and everything. And the whole vibe, too. But yeah, I think that'll be good.


Isaac Hayes III 40:53

Sure.


Dan Runcie 40:53

Even what artists would, you know, cover the version that your dad did, and you know, with that, I mean, thinking about that, too, for the song perspective? 


Isaac Hayes III 41:03

Yeah, we have a lot of unreleased, I have a lot of unreleased Isaac Hayes music that was recorded around the same time. And trust me, it's some Shaft D stuff in there, some stuff. Like I've been holding on to it for years now. Like I think I transferred those masters in 2014. For eight years, I haven't even really let some of that stuff. Like I said, they won't call about another Shaft at some point. And I'm gonna be ready. I'm gonna be ready to let people check it out.


Dan Runcie 41:25

Oh, yeah. You know, the call is coming soon, especially the way that content works right now, the call's coming soon. 


Isaac Hayes III 41:30

Absolutely.


Dan Runcie 41:31

Well, Isaac, this has been great. It's been great to chat, hear more about Fanbase, hear about some of the other things you're working on with regards to the estate. But before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug or let the Trapital audience know about?


Isaac Hayes III 41:45

Of course, to download Fanbase, we have a new version of audio, we have audio chat rooms that are monetized. So a new version of audio is coming in, like, probably, like a couple of weeks, we have our version of TikTok and Reels called Flicks so you can make short form video. And we have stories that are for followers and subscribers. So you can put your stories behind a subscription paywall as well. And I think that's something that's amazing, too. baseLike I said, monetizing content for everybody is just something that I think the world is gonna be all immersive in in the future, say right now is that kind of that friction point where it's like, is it really going to be a thing? And people are going to resist it at first, but once it becomes part of the norm the same way with all these other media verticals, our social media is just a next vertical for subscription.


Dan Runcie 42:46

Definitely, we see where it's all heading right. 10 years ago, people thought it was gonna be crazy, like, oh, you're gonna pay people at social media to do posts and now influencers do it on the regular. It's just a matter of timing, platform, and everything. And I feel like you got the right mix.


Isaac Hayes III 42:40

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.


Dan Runcie 42:42

Thanks, Isaac. This is great. Appreciate it. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you liked the podcast. That helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2647 no The Future Of Music Business With Economist Will Page https://www.trapital.com/podcast One of the most unique insights into the state of the music business today doesn’t come from a record label exec. Not from an agent. Not from an artist. No, it comes from Scottish economist Will Page, who served that role for Spotify from 2012 to 2019 — a period of explosive growth for the streaming giant. But if you ask Page about streaming’s future, he’s not nearly as optimistic as the rest of the industry. “The party has to come to an end,” as he told me on this episode of Trapital. Page believes the music industry is transitioning from a “herbivore market” to a “carnivore” one. In other words, future growth will not come from brand-new customers — it’ll come from the streaming services eating into each other’s market share. Not only has subscriber counts possibly tapped out in Page’s opinion, but streaming services have also put a ceiling on revenues by charging only $9.99, a price that hasn’t budged in 20 years despite giant leaps in technology and music catalog size.   That against-the-grain prediction was one of many Will shared with me during our in-depth interview. But he has plenty more research- and experience-backed thoughts on touring, vinyl records, Web 3.0, and everything in between. Believe me, this is an interview you don’t want to miss. Here’s everything we covered:  [0:00] The 3 R’s in the business of music [3:15] Will’s experience being a DJ [7:10] Lopsided Growth Of Music Streaming In Global Markets [8:59] Vinyl Records $1.5 Billion Recovery  [13:18] Will’s Bearish View About The Future Of Streaming [15:22] Ongoing Price War Between Streaming Services [22:59] The Changing Economics Of Music Touring  [26:16] Performing At Festivals Vs. Tours  [30:50] The Evolution Of Music Publishing [34:32] How Music Revenue Gets Distributed To Publishers [37:35] What Does A “Post-Spotify Economy” Look Like?  [40:00] Will’s Biggest Issues With Web3  [47:01] The Current Business Landscape Of Hip-Hop  Listen to Will’s mix right here: https://www.mixcloud.com/willpagesnc/we-aint-done-with-2021/ Check out Will’s Podcast, Bubble Trouble, where he breaks down how financial markets really work. Read Will’s book, Tarzan Economics: Eight Principles for Pivoting Through Disruption. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Will Page, @willpageauthor    Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. _____ TRANSCRIPT Will Page  00:00 The best way I could do this is, I just talk about ratios. There are three R's in this business, there's share of revenue, there's ratio, and as rates pool, they mean different things. Most experts get confused with the three R's. I'm gonna stick to ratios that is, if I give the label $1, how much do I give the publisher, the software, there's collective management organization? So we stick to the conventional streaming model today, I would say that you get the record label $1, you're giving the publishing side of the fence 24 cents, you know, a decent chunk of change, but still the poorer cousin of the record label. On YouTube, I think it could be as high as 35 cents, 40 cents even because there's a sink right involved in those deals. Dan Runcie  00:46 Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  Today's guest is Will Page. He is the author of a book I cannot recommend enough. It's called Tarzan Economics. It's a guide to pivoting through disruption. This is a must-read if you're working in music, media, or entertainment. He is also a Visiting Fellow at the London School of Economics. He is the former Chief Economist at Spotify. So if you are interested in where the music industry is heading, where trends are going, this is the person to talk to. I was first put onto Will’s work, he had released this white paper called Rockonomics. And it was a breakdown on how artists were using Twitch. I wrote about the report in Trapital because I was fascinated by it. And then he and I started talking from there. So it was only a matter of time before he came on the podcast.  Will and I covered a bunch in this episode, we talked about the growth of streaming, we also talked about the growth of vinyl, and how that impacts the economics for a lot of artists and songwriters and publishers. We also talked about the price of streaming services. Most services are still $9.99 per month in the US. So we talked about why that is for music compared to video streaming, where Netflix Hulu, and Amazon have been increasing their prices for their respective services. We also talked about music publishing and why Will thinks that that catalog will continue to grow. We talked about live music and some of the potential constraints where now the next 24 months everyone wants to go on tour. But there's only so many venues and so much money that consumers have unwillingness to see live shows. So we've talked about that we talked about trends in hip hop, we'll have a bunch of exclusive numbers to share in this. And it was great to talk to him. It's been great to also Jessica T to learn from him. I honestly do believe that he's one of the sharpest minds in the music industry. And it was a pleasure to have him on this podcast. And I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Here's my chat with Will Page. Alright, today we got the one and only Will Page with us. He is well known in the music and media space as an economist, but he also spent a lot of time as a DJ. And I feel like that could be a good place for us to start the conversation. Will, talk to me about your DJ experience and what you've been doing there recently. Will Page  03:22 Well, I've been DJing since the age of puberty. And it was all inspired by one lyric by a rapper called Mike G from The Jungle Brothers from an album called done by the forces of nature, where he dropped his library. He said it's about getting the music across the message across getting it across without crossing over. And unlike a 14-year-old kid when I hear this, and I just thought about those words, getting the music across without crossing over, how do you get out to an audience without diluting its integrity. I'm only 14 at the time. But that just resonated with me so strongly, and I just kind of dedicated a huge chunk of my life to trying to get the music across to an audience that would otherwise not have heard it. And I'm not diluting how it's been presented. That's what a DJ can do. You can thread songs together in a way that gets music across without its dilution without crossing it over. Dan Runcie  04:11 And I feel like, for you, you've been able to carry that through, you had we're not done we are done with 2021 I was able to do a quick drop for that as well. So I think what's likely inspiring for a lot of folks is that there's so many people that have music backgrounds and passions early on, but there's a pause if they're not able to continue that but you've been able to keep this as part of your charity, which I think makes so much of what you do with this space authentic because you yourself are someone who releases music. Will Page  04:40 Yeah, I mean, the mix cloud allowed me to scale what I was doing anyway, if I go back to university in the late 90s early noughties you'd make mixtapes mix cassettes. There's a great way to date girls, but you could only do maybe like 50 100 at tops. Mix cloud allows you to take what you do and scale it scale what you love to do and the mixer UK only gave us a drop for weighing in dama 2021. That makes us no-hit 27,000 on Mixcloud meaning have overtaken Erykah Badu one of your former guests, I believe. So, you know, to get to 20,000 unique people with a mix that you care a year crafting together, that means the world to me. Dan Runcie  05:15 It's a lot. And that's powerful, too. I imagined that you're always not just finding the sounds that make the most vibe for the year. But you're also thinking about, okay, what is the way that things are moving, especially at the pandemic? I feel like it's such an interesting year to have something like that. Because I think for some people, it's a year that they want to remember a year, they don't want to remember as well. But I feel like you probably already have a few things lined up for the mix you'll do at the end of 2022. Will Page  05:45 Yeah, I mean, you're always looking for the bands that are not on Spotify, not an Apple Music, I think about half of my mix this year, you will not find in a streaming service. And I'm proud of that you're going to Discogs to find those rare white label bootleg vinyls, you're going to the source to the artists who are in the studio recording. And to you know, profile bands like Sault, or London-based bands, S-A-U-L-T, on that mix. That meant the world because I've been watching them rise over the past few years now. And, you know, to this day, nobody has any idea what the band look like, who the band are made up of, you know, this, like punk music, they're rejecting the system, they're doing it completely separately. And they're, you know, not hitting millions of people on Spotify with their music, they've let the music do the talking. So I often think about mixed culture as a break it down this way, the internet can scale just about anything, but it can't scale intimacy, and a playlist or as an intimate, that's just a bunch of songs straddle together and work them through the shuffle play feature, but a mix, a DJ mix of 60 minutes seamless mix, where you have vocal drops, you have beat mixing, you have layering, all those techniques that you've honed over the years, that's intimate. So what I'm able to do with mixtape culture is to scale intimacy, and that goes out for every other DJ you've had on your show. That's what we're trying to do right. Dan Runcie  07:05 For sure. And I feel like that's a good segue to chat a little bit more about some of the work you've done for a company that is very heavily focused on playlists, which is Spotify. And I think more broadly, looking at the streaming ever we're in right now, this is a great time to chat because we just saw the IFP results. And streaming is continuing to grow, as we've seen, but I feel like you've probably spotted a few interesting trends about where things are heading. And I think that's a question of art for a lot of people streaming continues to grow, but how far can it grow? What are we seeing in terms of differences within genres or regions? What are some of the things that stuck out to you? Will Page  07:43 I'll give you a couple. The first one is the global business. Well, last time I looked at the United Nations, I think there's 208 countries in the world, the global yearbook that we're discussing here, has I think, 58. So we have to be careful what we define as global. I think Africa's clubbed together as one continent with a need to work on that. But I think the global business is growing, but it's also becoming more American. So if you go back to when Spotify launched, Americans made up 20 to 23% of the business round, about just over a fifth today, it's 37%. So we have seen the business grow and become more American. And that raises questions, economic questions, like globalization questions, should poor countries catch up with rich ones, a theory says yes, the reality often says no, so we're seeing this kind of lopsided growth where the business is growing, but it's growing in favor of an American market, the biggest country is growing at the fastest rates. That's a positive problem, but I just want to flag it, which is that's not how it was supposed to play out. And then the second thing I'd want to point to as well as just vinyl, this vinyl recovery is just Well, I don't know how much my bank balance is responsible for this vinyl recovery. But I'm telling you, is defying the laws of gravity. Now we're now looking at Vinyl being worth one and a half-billion dollars, which is more than it's been worth in the past 30 years. It's worth more than CDs, cassettes, and downloads the three formats that were supposed to declare that vinyl is dead, but there's two things you can kind of cut out the vinyl recovery, which I think will be of real interest to your audience. Firstly, on the consumer side, I saw a survey which suggested that the majority just over half of all vinyl buyers today don't own a record player. I mean, something's cooking here. So why are we buying it for now I'll extend that as well. The cost of wall frames to frame vinyl on your wall often costs more than the record itself. So I'm willing to pay more for vinyl to be called New framed on my wall than I am for the record. And by the way, I don't have a record player that a lot of people will take those bizarre boxes, but on the creator side, something else is interesting. It'll take a little bit of working through but if we think about the streaming model is monetizing consumption, that's what it does. So there's an album A 10 songs, three killer and seven filler songs and an album Let's say Dan runs, he wrote the three killer tracks, and we'll page the seven Duff filler tracks. On streaming, Dan might walk away with all the money, and I'll walk away with none. Because we're only streaming the killer tracks and nobody's touching the filler. As the album model kicks out from vinyl, I would get 70% of the cache. That's crazy because nobody knows what's being consumed. And it's a lot of cash by just kind of do some rough math, you have a million fans streaming your hip hop record on Spotify. And let's say they're streaming it 200 times in the month when the album drops, you only need 20,000 of them of that million to make the same amount of money from vinyl than you would do from streams, which is entirely plausible. But then how do you pay the copyright owners from those songs on an album is very different from how you pay them on a stream. If you go back to the late 70s. The one most successful records of all time was Saturday Night Fever, the BGS, and a bunch of other people. It's crazy to think that Ralph McDonald's Calypso struck his record there, which nobody has listened to, but the same royalty as staying alive by the BGS. Because it was a vinyl record. So to reiterate, on the consumer side, I don't know how many of these vinyl records are being played. And on the creative side, it raises questions about how these creators are going to get paid. Dan Runcie  11:16 That's a good point. But that I don't think is being talked about as much about the vinyl search, because there's so much like wow, about just how much has been purchased. I think I haven't saw the stat that Adele's 30 albums sold 8000 cassettes or there’s a self-titled stat about that. And I think the similar thing that you said lines up, I think those people actually still own a Walkman or whatever type of cassette player that they have. So I do think that that is something that probably there could be a deeper analysis on. Because a lot of the people that write the filler songs, how do they feel whether you're a songwriter, whether you know what's behind it, especially when you know that there's so much clearer path to be able to determine, Okay, this is going to be the lead single that this is what we're going to push most from this album, it really shifts the exhibit more to where things are going in terms of a single market and like the way that people have talked about pop music for a while now. Right. And I guess that brings me back to the streaming trends that you mentioned, overall, we're in this area, as you mentioned, streaming itself that US penetration has grown from 22%, I believe you said is now 30 to 3537, somewhere around there. But where do we go from here because as you've written before, the price of music streaming, at least the monthly subscription hasn't necessarily been increasing. The average revenue per user overall, because of the international growth is decreased. And you have plenty of people that are still trying to get their fair share of what they can. It's streaming. So it's in like 510 years from now, if you could see into the future. Where do you think streaming distribution is I think the good thing is that people have smartphones, and there's more and more growth from that perspective. So streaming is going to grow. But on the other hand, the economics of these things do have some theoretical point where we've maximized the global penetration of this. What do you think about where that is going? Will Page  13:17 Let me unpack it in two different lanes. Firstly, I'll deal with the saturation point question which is, you know, how long can this party keep going for it's three o'clock in the morning, who's going to call time on it? And then secondly, I want to deal with the pricing point on its own lien as well. But on saturation point, you're now in a situation where I'd put it as in America, we've had herbivores we've had Spotify growing Apple growing, Amazon growing, YouTube growing, everybody's reporting growth, Pandora even is growing. What we're gonna see at some point soon is carnivores, which is Apple will grow by eating into Spotify as growth or YouTube will grow by eating into Amazon's growth. So the key question we got to ask is, when do we go from the herbivore market we're in today to a carnivore market of tomorrow, and output Spotify as your subscriber number right about 45 million, Apple at 49 million, you dump on top YouTube, Amazon Pandora, you're well past 110, 120 million. Now that's important because I reckon there's around about 110 million qualifying households in America that has at least one person who could pay for a streaming service. This is crucial, because if you look at what Apple one's bundle is doing $30 a month for news, music, television, gaming, fitness, and two terabytes of storage per six accountholder is a household proposition. They're saying to the home, I got you convenience. Everyone under this roof is covered with Apple products. So when you have 110 million households, and you have more than 110 million subscribers in the United States, then we're in a race to the finishing line before herbivores turn into carnivores. In oil. We have this expression called Peak Oil, which is we know that we've extracted more oil in the world and has left to extract an oil All that's left is going to be even more costly to get out of the ground. I think we're in peak subscriber territory where at some point soon we're going to start seeing growth happen through stealing other customers as opposed to finding your own. So I just want to put that warning flag out there just now we're partying like it's 1989 Fine, but at some point, the party has to come to an end and growth is going to come at the expense of other players that then flips Neil from the east side to the B side of this record, we flip it over to price. And then pricing debate is interesting. I published this work called MelB economics, which we can cite on your wonderful website there, which was to look at the 20-year history of the 19 price point. And it's crazy story back in the third of December 2001. Over 20 years ago today, Rhapsody got its license for 999 offerings which had 15,000 songs first point, the origins of 999. Bizarrely deep back to the blockbuster rental card, some cooked-up label executive would have said that it cost 999 to rent videos from blockbuster. That's what it should cost to rent music. Secondly, there was only 15,000 songs with limited use case there was no smartphone back then no apps, no algorithms, that was all a weird world into the future. So you just had 999 for 15,000 songs we're now checking in early April 2022. And it's still 999 in dollar and euro and Sterling. But we're offering 100 million songs. That's the crazy thing. So in the article MelB economics what I do is I, strip inflation out in the case of the UK 999 has fallen down to six pounds 30 pence. Remember, you know family plan makes music cheaper to have 2.3 people are paying 4099, that's six pounds, 50. There's way too many numbers in this conversation for capital. But still, we'll stick with it. Student plan makes it cheaper to sew music in real terms has fallen to six pounds 30 which is less than a medium glass of Malbec wine. So 175 milliliters of Malbec wine costs more than 100 million songs, which is available offline on-demand without adverts that for me is certified bonkers. I don't understand what we've done. We're offering more and more, and we're charging less and less. And you only have to leave the ears to the eyes on the video streaming to see what they're doing on the other side of the fence. Netflix has got me from 799 to 899 to 1299, to now 1499 In the space of 15 months, and I haven't blinked Disney plus, the reason I'm paying for 99 and Disney plus is because I paid 1999 to get Cruella live on-demand. So they're charging more and more, but only offering part of the world's repertoire set for eyeball content. We're charging less and less and offering more and more of the wells, your whole content says like two ships passing each other in the night. It's a very interesting dilemma. Dan Runcie  17:49 It's intriguing because when you look at the way that video is structured, as you mentioned, you have all these price increases. And I think Netflix for some plans is you know, at 99 It's approaching that level. But in music, it's this thing where yeah, there's some price differences where I think I saw today that Amazon music is increasing $1 But that's from 799 for Prime subscribers to that being 899. So, Ross that Will Page  18:17 I wonder if like what caused that? Dan Runcie  18:21 I mean, honestly, I feel like there's something here because when I think about this, I think about a few things, right? Obviously, you do have this fight where the artists want to get more and the labels want to get more, you know, not just for the artist, but for themselves. And obviously, Spotify wants to earn more logically you would think, Okay, if you increase the price, and people just understated the economics of what's likely, if Spotify increased up to 1299 a month for the standard base rate, how many folks would blink. But to your point earlier, I have to imagine that the fear is looking at the trends and where that penetration is, if they jump up to 39 or 1299, then they're going to lose those customers to the other streaming services that have been shoved there yet, because of that thought of, you know, shifting to that carnivore mentality of competing with each other. So because for roughly 80% of the content that they do offer, it is roughly the same between each of the services, it's in when's it to be more of a price war, then in video streaming, where most of them do have some differentiated content Will Page  19:26 100% And two things to hold on to a very eloquent point there. And firstly, let's just remind ourselves that Apple launched superior sound quality, you may remember the commercial of lossless audio, you buy your air pods, which cost two years of Apple Music or Spotify to put in your years and you get superior sound quality, the subtext underneath it said at no extra cost. That was the actual marketing message. So there again, we're improving the offer. We're supplying more, but we're charging less in real terms. And that's a really interesting kind of point can occur. into it. The second thing and we should get balanced into this discussion, because it's delicate is we have to remind ourselves that, you know, there's 120 million subscribers in America, there's still another 100 and 20 million to go. But we know they're not they're interested in paying for music because they haven't paid yet, the best way to attract them is not necessarily to raise price. So we got to remember that there's still no oil to extract, it's not going to be easy oil to extract, the best way to get to it might not be to raise the price. But there's a catch to this. I can remember, in the early noughties, right up to 2010 piracy, ripping the asset out of this business. And concert promoters were saying, We love piracy because the kids are getting music for free so they can pay more on concert tickets. I wonder if now they're saying we love Spotify because they don't raise prices, which means we can raise hours, this is not a discussion of how to rip off the customer. This is a discussion about value exchange. And I just wonder whether recorded music is leaving value on the table. That's the key point to hammer home. Dan Runcie  20:57 That's a good point. And I think that also made me think too, could there be some notion of maintaining the perception of Spotify as something that still has high pricing power is still as high consumer surplus because then that helps the stock price. And then seeing that the major labels are all invested in Spotify itself. It's about like having that perception of you know, the future growth and whatever it is. So what you've just said made me think about that being a factor, potentially to the 100%. Will Page  21:27 And of course, you got to distinguish the Spotify, Apple Music cost structure from that of the video streaming companies, in that they have a kind of variable costs, you double your business, you double your cost base, whereas Netflix, you jump up costs, and you have you jumped up your revenue, you raised me from 799 to 1499, the cost of that content was fixed. And I'm still consuming the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air on Netflix to this day. That is a fixed-cost deal that he did to get that content. And that's margin to Netflix. So you know, the cost structure matters in this one as well. Dan Runcie  21:59 Definitely. And you mentioned like music there. And I think there's a lot to think about from that perspective. I feel like we're in this post-pandemic. I mean, we're still not out of it. But we're in this post-quarantine era, art more artists than ever are trying to tour and get out there try to capture what's there. But also from an economic perspective, from that most people are only going to go to a certain number of live events per year. And we have this 18 to 24-month run coming up where everyone wants to make up for what they couldn't do in the past two years. How will that shift not just who that goes on tour together? And then how they may split those profits, what the availability looks like. And if they're not able to do what they may have done on tour in the late 2010s. How does that affect future touring? I think that's a piece of it that, you know, we still haven't necessarily seen the impact of but it just feels inevitable based on where things are heading. Will Page  22:58 You did absolutely know on touring. I was lucky and I got to do some great work on the UK live industry. And I can only speak for the UK here. I know a lot of your audience knew us, but I think these points will carry across. The first one was to work out how much is spent on concert tickets in Britain during the normal year of 2019. And the answer was 1.7 billion pounds. That's more than was spent on recorded music a lot more than was spent recorded music which makes sense, you know, you pay 120 pounds on your Spotify account, you're paying 240 pounds to go to Reading Festival for two days in a muddy field and reading costs more than 365 days of all the world's music. But what I noticed there was the industry is changing in its growth. I showed that between 2012 The year of the London Olympics, and 2019 the live music industry in this country had exploded and grow but it was lopsided. All the growth came from stadiums, festivals, and to a lesser extent arenas, the theaters, the 2000 3000 capacity theaters like the Fillmore West over where you are, they were getting crushed. They were actually shrinking in size. So we have this lopsided live music industry which is going right in the direction of the head as opposed to the long tail. The stadiums or festivals The arena is as opposed to the theater as the club's the university venues. And that's interesting because that's going to change the dynamics of how you make money from live. Do you go from doing your tour of an album to doing a tour of your festivals for that record? And what does that mean for the cost structure for the insurance and all those things that bands have to consider when you're hitting the road? I mean, credit to trap tool. You've had some great podcasts recently on this topic. But as there's a big rethink coming along in this live music market is not the same as we had back in 2019. It's changed fundamentally and it is the breadwinner for most artists' income I think it makes up about 70% of what an artist has to live for comes from the road that vanished. How do we get it back? Dan Runcie  24:49 I feel like Cardi B has been a good case study on this specific point here, right. It's been four years now since she released an album and she's yet to go on a true proper tour in that time, that said she's done plenty of festivals where she served more on those festival guarantees that she liked what on tour. She's also done many private events where she's likely earned that same amount, if not more. So, there's a whole economic argument to be made. And I think there's also some risk involved, too, right? I think that festivals do give you the opportunity to get that nature back, you get the high number, the revenue that comes through, but maybe your fans will be a little bit more forgiving if you're set-piece at your festival isn't the most extravagant thing, especially if you're not the headliner at it. But on a tour, I think it changes it's a little bit more pressure. Everyone wants to see that Instagrammable or tick talkable moment to then sell future tickets, and just the production costs and everything with traveling. It still is something that is very worthwhile, but I think we've just started to see some of that segmentation there, especially for someone like her I would have to go residencies to I know she's done a few different things in Vegas here and there. But yes, I still yet to do that. 30-city worldwide tour? Will Page  26:12 Yeah, I think you got to think of your head and your heart. Your head says like you point out the economics fevers, festivals, your back lines are your insurances cover travels already covered. I have numerous Hip Hop bands perform at festivals in Europe. And that's one of the big advantages. The costs are all taken care of by the festival. But your heart says what does that do to intimate relationships with your fans, right? You're staring at 50,000 Strangers in the muddy field. That's different from staring at 2000 friends in the Fillmore West. So the heading the horror is going to come into play here. What I would add, though, is that there are rumors I would say here in the UK, at least that the promoters are saying I'll pay you a ton of money to film at the festival to make sure that you don't go on tour. And that's an interesting situation. If you build one too many houses, you collapse the property market. If you have one too many tours or one too many festivals, you collapse like the music industry. So there's ways in which people are trying to restrain the market to festivals at the expense of the theaters that certainly is coming through in the data. We're seeing the theater business, take a kick in well, festivals go on a roll. Dan Runcie  27:12 Yeah. Because I think about you look at the artists that are touring stadiums now whether it's your Taylor Swift or Beyonce is they wouldn't be able to do that if they didn't have the individual tours, that smaller venues when they were starting out being able to build that intimate fan base, like you said, like you get to that point, right. And I do think that as good as festivals can be it is much more of a lucrative cash grab that is I don't want to say necessarily short-term thinking. But I think you ideally want to have some type of balance there, right? Get the big bag that you can get from something else. It's almost no different than I think running a business right? Okay, sure. You may be able to do a speaking fee or do some type of you know, the thing here or there. But you can't do that all the time, especially if it's not an audience are tapped into. You still need to do some of the things that could set you up for the long game. Will Page  28:05 Yeah, and there's an infographic that I'll share with you to pass on to your audience here. I wrote an article in The Economist called smells like Middle East spirit, as opposed to teen spirit and ice play on words had to Dave Grohl and Kurt Cobain, but what I was looking at was the average age of festival headliners over time. This is a doer pessimistic Scottish economist, this is what you do is your spare time. Okay. So in 92, and Radiohead did Glastonbury, the average age of a festival headliner was 2526 years old. And all these hot bands were coming through the Britpop era. You know, there was so much development of new talent by 2012. I think it got up to 58. And I got a lot of criticism for that article, but then Glastonbury that year had the who and Lionel Richie headlining, which I think was 70 and 73 years old, apart, and then you can see the conveyor belt problem, which is okay, it's a quick cash grab, it makes sense. But that's not the conveyor belt of how we develop talent for tomorrow. That's just how we cash in our chips at the casino today. So it does raise questions. And I'm not saying it's like the doomsday scenario here. But we just need a healthy balance of, you know, a seedbed for future growth. And then the big stage of exploiting that moment today, which could be the permanent stage at Glastonbury, the headlights siege up on a roof and mistakes. So I just think we're getting a little bit lopsided here. We're a bit short term system, how this business needs to develop Dan Runcie  29:25 Agreed on that. Switching gears a bit. One thing that you wrote recently that stuck out to me you did this deep dive on music publishing, and I think this is another area that kind of has some of that short term, long term perspective on it, because you look at the people who get the share of the copyright pie, at least today. And from a music streaming perspective, a lot of that has been much more in the favor of the recorded side and then the people getting compensated on the recording side. But with that the songwriters and the PA brochures. A lot of them necessarily in that timeframe didn't get a lot of that. But I think in this wave now where we're seeing more catalog deals, and we're seeing people understand the value of that things may be starting to shift and there's likely other things as well. But what do you think about the way that the publishing side has been seen and what the future opportunities are for that side of the business? Will Page  30:23 Well, the way that labels and publishing were taught to me in terms of what makes them distinct from one another goes back to my Aunt Doreen Lauder, who worked in the music business from 1959 at Decca Records right the way through to 2012. She went enzyme records with Nigel Grange loosens half brother, they were responsible for Sinead O'Connor who sold 11 million albums based on the prints cover. And she once said to me, Will, this is how the music industry works, the record label piece of your drugs and the publishing pays for your pension, just kind of as a nice succinct way of summarizing how the business works. That was then this is now clearly times have changed, I think. But it reminds us about you know what makes the business different. And that piece of work that you cite is something called global value of copyright, where I'm really keen to educate this industry, regardless of whether you're coming from a label perspective, a manager or an artist or songwriter, there's a C with a circle on it called copyright. We get that and it involves record labels. It involves SoundExchange involves artists involves ASCAP, BMI, GMR says EQ involves publishers, David Israeli, and the great folks at the NMPA, and Wall Street, but the whole thing together for me all this spaghetti and straightened out. And what I was able to show was that in 2020, copyright was worth 32 and a half-billion dollars, way bigger than what you've just heard I FPI, way bigger than what CS EC would say, this is the entire thing. And the split was about 65% labels 35% to the publishers. Now if you go way back to 2001 when we used to sell CDs by way of pallet and cocaine capitalism, these have no record labels. Back then, the split was much more in favor of labels no more than three quarters labels less than a quarter to the publishers. And what we've seen happen in the years in between is quite an interesting story. Labels went from boom time with CDs to bust with piracy, and now they're booming again with streaming. And the inverse the opposite happened publishers as labels went bust, ASCAP, BMI, kept on recording record-breaking collections. So you ever hear the toys analogy here of labels going really fast and falling off a cliff publishes as trundled along with record-breaking, not massive record-breaking collections, but he kept on growing their base. So the question he threw up is, what type of industry are we moving towards? Are we going back to our business model which paid labels over three quarters of the pie and publishers less than a quarter? And is that a good or a bad thing? Or in this post-Spotify economy where we're seeing companies like peloton Twitch, TikTok comes to the business is that gonna have a completely different balance. Now, why this matters to your audiences, not just on the creator side. But also on the investment side, you pointed out catalog valuations we can dig into that if you want. But just a high-level point is let's say that in a few year's time, I go into my Batcave again, calculate the global value of copyright, and instead of 32 and a half billion is 40 billion, I'll come on traps or make an exclusive announcement cooperate today is worth 40,000,000,007 and a half billion new dollars have come into this business, I want the audience to start thinking about who gets what share of that marginal new dollar, is that going to split publishing side? Or is that going to split the label side. And if you're investing in catalogs, be the master rights be the author rights that really matters. There's a huge educational drive here to understand the balance of this business of copyright. Dan Runcie  33:45 So there's a few things you said there that I wanted to dig into, of course, for streaming Spotify and its competitors around 75% is going to the recorded side a quarter to publishing but from a breakdown what does that look like for the Tiktoks? The Roblox and the peloton what is that share of revenue from those plays look like? Will Page  34:08 So the best way I could do this is if I just talk about ratios, there's three R's in this business, there's share of revenue, there's ratio, and as rights pool, they mean different things. Most experts get confused with three R's. I'm gonna stick to ratios that is if I give the label $1, how much do I give the publisher, the software, there's collective management organization. So we stick to the conventional streaming model today, I would say that you get the record label $1. You're giving the publishing side of the fence 24 cents, you know, a decent chunk of change, but still the poorer cousin of the record label on YouTube, I think it could be as high as 35 cents 40 cents even because there's a sync right involved in those deals. And then when you take that observation of imposing the sink right into a deal and you expand it to peloton or tic tock potentially even more, and then you can flip it and say well what happens in the future of TiC tock Because karaoke not saying it's gonna happen, but it's not implausible if that was the case that favors publishers even more. There's all these weird ways the business could develop, which could favor one side of the fence, the labels, and the artists continue getting three-quarters of the cash. On the other side of the fence publishers and songwriters start enforcing their rights and getting a more balanced share. And that's what we need to look out for when we're investing in corporates. That's what we need to look out for. If you're a singer and a songwriter. And you're trying to understand your royalty statements. Dan Runcie  35:27 Like how much higher Do you think I mean, if you had to put a percentage on it for the Tiktoks or the pelletize? And I guess as well, you made me think up sync deals, right? Like for the folks that are selling, or their saw gets placed on one of these Hulu series or one of these HBO Max series? Like what is that ratio look like, you know, from a ballpark for those? Will Page  35:50 So I think a 50-50 split would be the upper end of the goal. If a song is placed in a Hulu TV show or you know, an artist I've worked with for many years Eumir Deodato, Brazilian composer, his songs now in this famous EasyJet commercial over here in Europe, the artists and the publisher would see around a 5050 split of those revenues. Now would that happen in a world of streaming? Unlikely, but I think if you can get to a stage where you're giving the record label $1 and the publisher 50 cents as a ratio, and I got to repeat the word ratio here, you know, that's potentially achievable, that listen, post-Spotify economy, I don't think it's going to happen with the business we're looking at today. But I think that's a potential scenario for the business developing tomorrow. That's the thing is, if I can quote Ralph Simon are a longtime mentor to me, he always says, this industry is always about what's happening next. And then he goes on to say, it always has been as a great reminder of just your will restless souls in this business, we've achieved this amazing thing in the past 10 years, we're streaming got that bank there. What's coming next, who would have thought peloton would have had a music licensing department 18 months ago now they're like a top 10 account for major labels. Dan Runcie  36:59 It's impressive. It really is. And I think it's a good reminder. Because anytime that you get a little bit too bullish and excited about what the current thing is, we always got to be thinking about what's next. And you mentioned a few times about a post-Spotify economy. And what does that look like? From your perspective, I think there's likely a number of things that we've already talked about with more of these other b2b platforms or with these other platforms, in general, having licensing deals, but what do you say? Or what do you think about post-Spotify economy? What comes to mind for you? Will Page  37:32 Let me throw my fist your words, your joy, and try and knock you out for a second. We talked about price for a minute. And we talked about streaming. We haven't talked about gaming, but you noticed that Epic Games just acquired Bandcamp, I learned a fascinating stat about Bandcamp, which relates to my book tours and economics. There's a chapter in the book called Mako by, where I sat down with the management of the band Radiohead, we went through the entire in rainbow story for the first time ever a real global exclusive to explain how that deal worked out what they were really achieving when they did their voluntary Tip Jar model. And by the way, can I just put a shout out to one of your listeners, and fly from the Ben-Zion I bet remix of Radiohead have ever heard in my life is live. We're fishies Hip Hop version of the entire album. But Radiohead tested voluntary Tip Jar pricing. Now check this out. If you put your album out on Bandcamp could be a vinyl record. Remember, it's the people who are paying to stream who are also buying vinyl. So if you put a band and album out on Bandcamp, and you say a name, your own price, no minimum, and there's a guidance of 10 bucks, the average paid is 14 People go about 40% asking, and that could be for a super-rich blockbuster artists who try something out on Bandcamp there could be for some band who's broken Brooklyn Robin and cons together trying to make them breed people go 40% above asking when you say name your own price. And that's interesting for me, and there's a great academic paper by Francesca Cornelli from Duke University, she asked how should you price a museum and intuition says top-down mindset, the museum should set the price adults 10 bucks kids, five bucks pensioners, some type of discount arrangement, but she said no, let the visitors set the price because that way rich people will give you even more and poorer people can attend. And you'll see more cash overall. And I would like to see a little bit more of that experimentation around pricing compared to the past 20 years where we've had a ceiling on price where if you really love a band, all you can give a platform is 999 and not a penny more. I think that's we're suffocating love. We're putting a ceiling on love. We need to take that ceiling smash through it and let people express love through different means. But I love that Bandcamp story whatever you suggest I'll give you 40% above because it's our we're not dealing with commodity we're dealing with culture and that's what we got to remind ourselves. Dan Runcie  39:43 It's like the Met model right where at least the last time I went it was like $20 was the recommendation but to your point it at least at some variable threshold, but the people a lot of the people that go there that have a lot of money end up giving much more so I hear you on that I, I noticed though, when you're talking and thinking about the future of this, I didn't hear many of the typical buzzwords and things that you hear about the music industry. Now whether it is NFTs or Web 3.0 or Metaverse, well, maybe to some extent with the Epic Games comparison, but what is your take on that piece of the puzzle, Spotify era. Will Page  40:20 I need $1 and a glass every time I hear these words. So I'm just back from Austin, Texas, South by Southwest, a vague recollection of what happened over there. But I'm telling you, those words were bouncing around more than anything else. Here's a way of capturing of your listeners. This is the first time I've been to South by Southwest where nobody asked me what band did I see last night? Everybody asked me what VR headset that, I try this morning. And that's a sign of the times there and that is a sign of the times. Hey, did you try the Amaze VR headset? You know the make the stallion booty tour? Yeah, I tried that this morning, what Band-Aid nobody wanted to know about bands with pulses. Everybody wants to know about VR headsets. So we live in interesting times. And I think we're in a bit of bubble trouble here. I really do. I don't think this whole thing has been thought out correctly. Firstly, I'll give you an example of where I think the problems gone wrong. And secondly, I want to give you an example from history to show that we've been here before. So with NF T's, it is not. It's not an example of a woman who is happy to spend 1000s 10s of 1000s of dollars on a handbag because they can walk up and down Sixth Avenue and people will see that woman carrying that handbag, the signaling value isn't there. You know, I can buy a token that says I've seen the Mona Lisa on this day and put it in my locker. And if I show you my locker, you can see that I've seen the Mona Lisa that day, and you could buy a token and put it in your locker and you could show your friends that you've seen the Mona Lisa that day, but nobody can buy the Mona Lisa, we can just buy this NFT adaption of the Mona Lisa, but we can't share it across platforms. And that's where I'm struggling. That's where I'm struggling as irrational as that might be to spend 20 $30,000 on a handbag that makes you feel good having the world see you were fine. Do what you got to do. But with NF T's is not a cross-platform token. I'm worried that that's a problem with the model with the price of NF t's just very quickly, there is a term I want to introduce to your show called wash trades, which will meet a legal of 1936 which is basically if you're selling your house, you might employ an estate agent on the buyer side as well as the sell-side to cook up the price. And you can see if you try to do this in the stock market, you spend a lot of time and the chokey six years in jail for manipulating prices. Wash trades have been illegal since 1936. I think there's a problem with wash trades, manipulating the price of NF T's because they're unregulated. So I don't want to be the doer pessimistic, Scottish economist, in the room here pour cold water on this hype machine. But I have some issues with the product. And I have some issues with the price the product is docked to your locker and your locker only the price can be manipulated by ways which be declared illegal in financial markets. Conventional financial markets by wrapping that up. Here's my lesson from history. No Dan, in your record collection. Do you remember a rock band called kiss? Oh yeah. Were you a member of Kiss Army by any chance? Dan Runcie  43:08 I was on the show. Will Page  43:11 Right so if we go back to before I was born 1975, Kiss one of the biggest rock bands in America had something called Kiss Army for their super fans. So you could have kiss wallpaper because models. You could even have Kiss toilet paper. That was one of their top sellers. You could wipe your butt who key with Gene Simmons. That was one of their biggest sellers. And in 1975 They ran a competition on the competition was to say Hey fans, if you want to see a picture of the band with the makeup off there does famous black and white makeup. And we're going to have this competition you pay to enter and five lucky winners will be sent a photograph of the band for the makeup off. Now you're thinking NF TS kiss 1975 Where's he going? Follow me. Hysteria breaks out all these kiss fans in the kiss army want to see Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley with a makeup off. So crazy hyperemic competition the winners are announced the envelopes are sent out. There was five lucky winners get the envelope. They need scissors to open the envelope a pill it is black and white photograph of Kiss with makeup off. And after five seconds of exposure to natural light. The picture feeds genius, genius marketing incredible. But I'm struggling to see the difference between that and 1975 Kiss. You're competing for photographs, which feed in natural light and NFTs today so something I stress my big tours and economics is when you stare into disruption. It's really important to remind yourself that you've been here before and I think Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley have been here before. Dan Runcie  44:37 It's an interesting take. And I do think about the first piece of what you're saying just in terms of something that stays in your wallet. And how do you share that elsewhere? I have seen some of the social platforms making it easier to be like oh hey, you could connect your Coinbase wallet to this whether it's Instagram or I think they're working on it now or to Twitter and you could make that your profile Make sure or you know the people that of course, you know will right click copy paste and save it put that as their profile pictures in different places. So I guess in their minds that's their version of being able to walk down fit that with the duty at Birkbeck, right.  Will Page  45:15 That's interesting. That to your point, that takes you back into handbag territory that corrects for the problem. Let's see if it goes but equally does the NFT lose its exclusivity when we do that as well. So it might work in the short term and might lead to the demise of NF T's over the long term because they're not that special. After all, they're just an icon for your profile picture. So is great to hear that there's that type of thinking going on that justifies my,  justifies my view. Dan Runcie  45:41 Who knows? I mean, we're still early right but I do think that if I see your profile on social media, you turned into a board ape, we may have to have another podcast conversation I did. Will Page  45:55 But I tell you asked him was obsessed with these topics. Even Austin, Texas Music conferences, get obsessed with the next big thing but this year, it was just bizarre how many references I heard to web three NF Ts, but if they can just give a quick shout out to the company amaze VR who are doing the mega stallion tour I watched make the stallion four times in Austin, Texas, I saw more VR of Nicholas Deleon and I saw of any live bear. But you know, they had the longest queues of the entire conference. If you judge success by queues demand exceeding supply, they won South by Southwest for the longest queues. Dan Runcie  46:27 That's impressive. And of course, it makes a big star she's been doing a lot. I've heard a lot of good things from base VR too. I think that though, it'd be a great point to pivot and talk a little bit more about hip hop, the as we know, hip hop has been able to see a lot of its potential even more so. In the streaming era with us, given the popularity that's there. We've seen the numbers, we've seen the growth as well. And I know that you've studied this a lot, especially on the international perspective, just seeing how hip hop is growing in other countries. But I think some of that growth is looking different than what we may be used to seeing in the US. So what is your perspective right now on the state of hip hop with regards to streaming, Will Page  47:09 you speaking about something that's close to my heart, but if I can start by saying, one thing that your podcast has done for me over the years, that reminds us of that famous quote, which has been reiterated by many rappers, which is rap is something you do hip hop is something you live, and we can forget that from time to time can drink a bit too much Kool-Aid and forget those golden words. Rap is something that you do. Hip hop is something that you live, you don't have a choice with hip hop, you live it, rap, I mean, you could play a jazz track, then you could do a rap track, you have a choice there, but hip hop is an eighth. And I want to pull those words up. Because when we talk about the genre of hip hop, I wonder whether it's really a bit of a square peg in a round hole here to take words, which means describe a lifestyle and their attitude or mentality, and then say that it's now a genre. Maybe rap should be the genre and hip hop should be the culture. So I just want to throw that out there for your listeners. And I'd love future guests to come on and pose them that question. If we're discussing the genre of hip hop, are we missing a trick that aside, some stuff which has been popping with hip hop mean, firstly, just the size of the audience in America, just north of 90 million people, there's 90 million regular listeners of hip hop that is phenomenal. If you think about how far the genre has come, the culture has come in 30-plus years. And secondly, who's out there in front. I mean, I would put YouTube as the number one venue for hip hop in the United States, Spotify, Apple, Amazon, they're all doing their things. But I think it's worth just reminding ourselves how important YouTube is to our culture. As opposed to Amazon Spotify. Apple is depressing your thumb on a piece of glass during a track. Repeat. Rap is something you do hip hop is something you live and you've had to Mercer, one of my longtime mentors on your show, just we'll back to that past podcast to get to where I'm coming from on that point. I think the interesting thing for me speaking as a non-American on a podcast with a large American audience to watch how it's growing out of the countries and one of the most interesting things for me was non-English speaking hip hop. Now, my sister who's a French translator, Annie, she introduced me to a rapper called MC solo way, way back in the day, back in the 90s. Even and I don't speak French, but the rap was just incredible, like the way that the French language flowed over a beat. He certainly won't recall any tempo. That was incredible. So, you know, I've always had an appreciation for how hip hop travels beyond its borders, playlists. Without Borders. Hip hop is without borders. So I just wanted to introduce your audience to a very interesting backstory in Holland and the Netherlands, where Spotify the first country, we scaled him outside of Norway and Sweden was the Netherlands. We got big there really quickly 2011, 2012 era and because we got big we could put some local foot soldiers on the ground to help with curation. And for the first time ever in the company's history. We started taking Hip Hop curation seriously outside of our core markets and because we're supplying curation that was met with demand and all of a sudden, we started seeing these Dutch language hip hop artists explode in Holland, Ronnie flex being a great example. I think around 2018, we ran the data. And we learned that Drake was the number one artist in the world on Spotify. Yet in Holland, he was an eighth biggest hip-hop artist. And the seven above him were Dutch rapping in a local language of Dutch. And that was just jaw-dropping to think about globalization, culture, back to the Jungle Brothers the lesson they taught me in 1989, getting the message across without crossing over how you can have local language, hip hop travel, like no other genre there is across the world. And you're seeing that happen in Germany, France, you're seeing it happen in Asia. And so it's important to apply a global lens to hip hop and ask what is it about this culture, which is leading it to travel in a way that other cultures are not traveling is that the expression is that the belief is that the conviction that comes through hip hop, and that's that there's a book on that topic, and then you'd be a perfect person to try and write it, I can get you an agent. And I'd be out of my depth, but just so really important see to so which is why is this culture traveling, like no other culture, I can see on a music platform. Dan Runcie  51:12 It's fascinating. It's something I've thought about a lot. I'm glad you mentioned that, because I think about a rapper, like Devine from India, or I think about some of the artists from the Middle East as well. And I think there's similar trends there where hip hop is still the most dominant thing, but they're artists that are from their regions are the ones that are the most popular. And I think it stems back to thinking about the origins of hip hop and looking at where a lot of those other countries may be. Now you look at what the public enemy had done, or even look a bit earlier, like Grandmaster Flash and have done their share of realities of the environments that they're in their storytelling in a way that isn't being done by the mass media. And we're in an era now, you know, more than ever, we see everything happening in the world where, what a lot of the heads of states, or what a lot of the governments or main distribution, communication platforms in these countries are sharing isn't necessarily reflecting what's happening in those places. So because of that, you have people wanting to speak out on that. And I think that because people realizing what the public enemy was able to do in some of those other groups here by them saying, you know, we are the black CNN, we are the voice communicating that I think you saw a lot of that in these other countries. So even if it's different artists, you're seeing them share their version of what's happening on the ground. And I think, like anything else, the evolution of that continues to grow over time. It's been, it's been really fascinating to see that. And I think that is what, at least for me always makes it feel like this is the global language that keeps everyone connected in this space. Even if people are speaking clearly different languages from artists you don't know there's that common theme that you can tell even if you're watching a music video or getting a vibe of what they're doing. There's so many through lights there. Will Page  53:02 Those comments are deeper than Loch Ness, so they can quickly top it up with two thoughts, just thinking aloud here. This is why I love about your podcast is with the way you take the conversation with just firstly, just a historical point. And as I mentioned with my book tours and economics, when you're staring at the disruption to remind yourself that you've been here before, when I hear stories about suppression by governments leading to a rise of hip hop as a culture rap as an art form. You just got to go back to 1877 New Orleans and remind yourselves how jazz came into being your Creole people. You know, when Jim Crow laws were reintroduced through the backdoor before since the African American community overnight, so you took classically trained middle-class Creole people brought into a culture which had the blues and African drumming, and out of that suppression came the creation that was jazz. And it's just I love when you alluded to government suppression resulting in creativity. It's just interesting to think how we keep on you know, history doesn't repeat itself, it rhymes. And it's rhyming here when you start to think about the origins of jazz to what we're seeing happen with hip hop. And then the second thing I mentioned earlier that, you know, the internet can scale just about anything you want, but it can't scale intimacy. I wonder whether that's what hip hop is doing because it's, it's a postcard its storytelling is beginning with the word imagine and asking you to imagine the picture these words are creating, you know, that's doing something which I don't think your conventional verse-chorus, verse, chorus, rock or pop song is going to deliver. So the message getting the message across without coordinate crossing over. The message that we're getting across with hip hop is different from other forms of music. And that might explain a little bit about success at home and overseas that we've seen on streaming. Dan Runcie  54:43 Definitely. Well, well, this is great. Thanks again for coming on. If you're listening, definitely make sure that you check out Tarzan economics. I can't recommend this book enough. I think that will is extremely sharp. And he's a thought leader in this space and it's been great to learn from him. So well. Thanks for coming on. And before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug in or let the travel audience know about? Will Page  55:07 I have gotten no more travel plans to the States this year. But if they can just ask the audience to check out the mix on Mixcloud we ain't done with 2021 with a shout-out from Dan Runcie, himself, and many others, Mike G is on that mix Lord is on that mix. But I just hope that your audience because the show trapped will mean so much to me. I just hope the audience sees me as a DJ first and an economist a distant second that I can just land that point at the end of this podcast, I'd be happy. Dan Runcie  55:33 That's a great note to end on. Well, thanks again. Will Page  55:36 Thank you so much. Dan Runcie  55:38 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 15 Apr 2022 08:00:00 -0000 The Future Of Music Business With Economist Will Page full Dan Runcie One of the most unique insights into the state of the music business today doesn’t come from a record label exec. Not from an agent. Not from an artist. No, it comes from Scottish economist Will Page, who served that role for Spotify from 2012 to 2019 — a period of explosive growth for the streaming giant. But if you ask Page about streaming’s future, he’s not nearly as optimistic as the rest of the industry. “The party has to come to an end,” as he told me on this episode of Trapital. Page believes the music industry is transitioning from a “herbivore market” to a “carnivore” one. In other words, future growth will not come from brand-new customers — it’ll come from the streaming services eating into each other’s market share. Not only has subscriber counts possibly tapped out in Page’s opinion, but streaming services have also put a ceiling on revenues by charging only $9.99, a price that hasn’t budged in 20 years despite giant leaps in technology and music catalog size.   That against-the-grain prediction was one of many Will shared with me during our in-depth interview. But he has plenty more research- and experience-backed thoughts on touring, vinyl records, Web 3.0, and everything in between. Believe me, this is an interview you don’t want to miss. Here’s everything we covered:  [0:00] The 3 R’s in the business of music [3:15] Will’s experience being a DJ [7:10] Lopsided Growth Of Music Streaming In Global Markets [8:59] Vinyl Records $1.5 Billion Recovery  [13:18] Will’s Bearish View About The Future Of Streaming [15:22] Ongoing Price War Between Streaming Services [22:59] The Changing Economics Of Music Touring  [26:16] Performing At Festivals Vs. Tours  [30:50] The Evolution Of Music Publishing [34:32] How Music Revenue Gets Distributed To Publishers [37:35] What Does A “Post-Spotify Economy” Look Like?  [40:00] Will’s Biggest Issues With Web3  [47:01] The Current Business Landscape Of Hip-Hop  Listen to Will’s mix right here: https://www.mixcloud.com/willpagesnc/we-aint-done-with-2021/ Check out Will’s Podcast, Bubble Trouble, where he breaks down how financial markets really work. Read Will’s book, Tarzan Economics: Eight Principles for Pivoting Through Disruption. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Will Page, @willpageauthor    Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. _____ TRANSCRIPT Will Page  00:00 The best way I could do this is, I just talk about ratios. There are three R's in this business, there's share of revenue, there's ratio, and as rates pool, they mean different things. Most experts get confused with the three R's. I'm gonna stick to ratios that is, if I give the label $1, how much do I give the publisher, the software, there's collective management organization? So we stick to the conventional streaming model today, I would say that you get the record label $1, you're giving the publishing side of the fence 24 cents, you know, a decent chunk of change, but still the poorer cousin of the record label. On YouTube, I think it could be as high as 35 cents, 40 cents even because there's a sink right involved in those deals. Dan Runcie  00:46 Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.  Today's guest is Will Page. He is the author of a book I cannot recommend enough. It's called Tarzan Economics. It's a guide to pivoting through disruption. This is a must-read if you're working in music, media, or entertainment. He is also a Visiting Fellow at the London School of Economics. He is the former Chief Economist at Spotify. So if you are interested in where the music industry is heading, where trends are going, this is the person to talk to. I was first put onto Will’s work, he had released this white paper called Rockonomics. And it was a breakdown on how artists were using Twitch. I wrote about the report in Trapital because I was fascinated by it. And then he and I started talking from there. So it was only a matter of time before he came on the podcast.  Will and I covered a bunch in this episode, we talked about the growth of streaming, we also talked about the growth of vinyl, and how that impacts the economics for a lot of artists and songwriters and publishers. We also talked about the price of streaming services. Most services are still $9.99 per month in the US. So we talked about why that is for music compared to video streaming, where Netflix Hulu, and Amazon have been increasing their prices for their respective services. We also talked about music publishing and why Will thinks that that catalog will continue to grow. We talked about live music and some of the potential constraints where now the next 24 months everyone wants to go on tour. But there's only so many venues and so much money that consumers have unwillingness to see live shows. So we've talked about that we talked about trends in hip hop, we'll have a bunch of exclusive numbers to share in this. And it was great to talk to him. It's been great to also Jessica T to learn from him. I honestly do believe that he's one of the sharpest minds in the music industry. And it was a pleasure to have him on this podcast. And I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Here's my chat with Will Page. Alright, today we got the one and only Will Page with us. He is well known in the music and media space as an economist, but he also spent a lot of time as a DJ. And I feel like that could be a good place for us to start the conversation. Will, talk to me about your DJ experience and what you've been doing there recently. Will Page  03:22 Well, I've been DJing since the age of puberty. And it was all inspired by one lyric by a rapper called Mike G from The Jungle Brothers from an album called done by the forces of nature, where he dropped his library. He said it's about getting the music across the message across getting it across without crossing over. And unlike a 14-year-old kid when I hear this, and I just thought about those words, getting the music across without crossing over, how do you get out to an audience without diluting its integrity. I'm only 14 at the time. But that just resonated with me so strongly, and I just kind of dedicated a huge chunk of my life to trying to get the music across to an audience that would otherwise not have heard it. And I'm not diluting how it's been presented. That's what a DJ can do. You can thread songs together in a way that gets music across without its dilution without crossing it over. Dan Runcie  04:11 And I feel like, for you, you've been able to carry that through, you had we're not done we are done with 2021 I was able to do a quick drop for that as well. So I think what's likely inspiring for a lot of folks is that there's so many people that have music backgrounds and passions early on, but there's a pause if they're not able to continue that but you've been able to keep this as part of your charity, which I think makes so much of what you do with this space authentic because you yourself are someone who releases music. Will Page  04:40 Yeah, I mean, the mix cloud allowed me to scale what I was doing anyway, if I go back to university in the late 90s early noughties you'd make mixtapes mix cassettes. There's a great way to date girls, but you could only do maybe like 50 100 at tops. Mix cloud allows you to take what you do and scale it scale what you love to do and the mixer UK only gave us a drop for weighing in dama 2021. That makes us no-hit 27,000 on Mixcloud meaning have overtaken Erykah Badu one of your former guests, I believe. So, you know, to get to 20,000 unique people with a mix that you care a year crafting together, that means the world to me. Dan Runcie  05:15 It's a lot. And that's powerful, too. I imagined that you're always not just finding the sounds that make the most vibe for the year. But you're also thinking about, okay, what is the way that things are moving, especially at the pandemic? I feel like it's such an interesting year to have something like that. Because I think for some people, it's a year that they want to remember a year, they don't want to remember as well. But I feel like you probably already have a few things lined up for the mix you'll do at the end of 2022. Will Page  05:45 Yeah, I mean, you're always looking for the bands that are not on Spotify, not an Apple Music, I think about half of my mix this year, you will not find in a streaming service. And I'm proud of that you're going to Discogs to find those rare white label bootleg vinyls, you're going to the source to the artists who are in the studio recording. And to you know, profile bands like Sault, or London-based bands, S-A-U-L-T, on that mix. That meant the world because I've been watching them rise over the past few years now. And, you know, to this day, nobody has any idea what the band look like, who the band are made up of, you know, this, like punk music, they're rejecting the system, they're doing it completely separately. And they're, you know, not hitting millions of people on Spotify with their music, they've let the music do the talking. So I often think about mixed culture as a break it down this way, the internet can scale just about anything, but it can't scale intimacy, and a playlist or as an intimate, that's just a bunch of songs straddle together and work them through the shuffle play feature, but a mix, a DJ mix of 60 minutes seamless mix, where you have vocal drops, you have beat mixing, you have layering, all those techniques that you've honed over the years, that's intimate. So what I'm able to do with mixtape culture is to scale intimacy, and that goes out for every other DJ you've had on your show. That's what we're trying to do right. Dan Runcie  07:05 For sure. And I feel like that's a good segue to chat a little bit more about some of the work you've done for a company that is very heavily focused on playlists, which is Spotify. And I think more broadly, looking at the streaming ever we're in right now, this is a great time to chat because we just saw the IFP results. And streaming is continuing to grow, as we've seen, but I feel like you've probably spotted a few interesting trends about where things are heading. And I think that's a question of art for a lot of people streaming continues to grow, but how far can it grow? What are we seeing in terms of differences within genres or regions? What are some of the things that stuck out to you? Will Page  07:43 I'll give you a couple. The first one is the global business. Well, last time I looked at the United Nations, I think there's 208 countries in the world, the global yearbook that we're discussing here, has I think, 58. So we have to be careful what we define as global. I think Africa's clubbed together as one continent with a need to work on that. But I think the global business is growing, but it's also becoming more American. So if you go back to when Spotify launched, Americans made up 20 to 23% of the business round, about just over a fifth today, it's 37%. So we have seen the business grow and become more American. And that raises questions, economic questions, like globalization questions, should poor countries catch up with rich ones, a theory says yes, the reality often says no, so we're seeing this kind of lopsided growth where the business is growing, but it's growing in favor of an American market, the biggest country is growing at the fastest rates. That's a positive problem, but I just want to flag it, which is that's not how it was supposed to play out. And then the second thing I'd want to point to as well as just vinyl, this vinyl recovery is just Well, I don't know how much my bank balance is responsible for this vinyl recovery. But I'm telling you, is defying the laws of gravity. Now we're now looking at Vinyl being worth one and a half-billion dollars, which is more than it's been worth in the past 30 years. It's worth more than CDs, cassettes, and downloads the three formats that were supposed to declare that vinyl is dead, but there's two things you can kind of cut out the vinyl recovery, which I think will be of real interest to your audience. Firstly, on the consumer side, I saw a survey which suggested that the majority just over half of all vinyl buyers today don't own a record player. I mean, something's cooking here. So why are we buying it for now I'll extend that as well. The cost of wall frames to frame vinyl on your wall often costs more than the record itself. So I'm willing to pay more for vinyl to be called New framed on my wall than I am for the record. And by the way, I don't have a record player that a lot of people will take those bizarre boxes, but on the creator side, something else is interesting. It'll take a little bit of working through but if we think about the streaming model is monetizing consumption, that's what it does. So there's an album A 10 songs, three killer and seven filler songs and an album Let's say Dan runs, he wrote the three killer tracks, and we'll page the seven Duff filler tracks. On streaming, Dan might walk away with all the money, and I'll walk away with none. Because we're only streaming the killer tracks and nobody's touching the filler. As the album model kicks out from vinyl, I would get 70% of the cache. That's crazy because nobody knows what's being consumed. And it's a lot of cash by just kind of do some rough math, you have a million fans streaming your hip hop record on Spotify. And let's say they're streaming it 200 times in the month when the album drops, you only need 20,000 of them of that million to make the same amount of money from vinyl than you would do from streams, which is entirely plausible. But then how do you pay the copyright owners from those songs on an album is very different from how you pay them on a stream. If you go back to the late 70s. The one most successful records of all time was Saturday Night Fever, the BGS, and a bunch of other people. It's crazy to think that Ralph McDonald's Calypso struck his record there, which nobody has listened to, but the same royalty as staying alive by the BGS. Because it was a vinyl record. So to reiterate, on the consumer side, I don't know how many of these vinyl records are being played. And on the creative side, it raises questions about how these creators are going to get paid. Dan Runcie  11:16 That's a good point. But that I don't think is being talked about as much about the vinyl search, because there's so much like wow, about just how much has been purchased. I think I haven't saw the stat that Adele's 30 albums sold 8000 cassettes or there’s a self-titled stat about that. And I think the similar thing that you said lines up, I think those people actually still own a Walkman or whatever type of cassette player that they have. So I do think that that is something that probably there could be a deeper analysis on. Because a lot of the people that write the filler songs, how do they feel whether you're a songwriter, whether you know what's behind it, especially when you know that there's so much clearer path to be able to determine, Okay, this is going to be the lead single that this is what we're going to push most from this album, it really shifts the exhibit more to where things are going in terms of a single market and like the way that people have talked about pop music for a while now. Right. And I guess that brings me back to the streaming trends that you mentioned, overall, we're in this area, as you mentioned, streaming itself that US penetration has grown from 22%, I believe you said is now 30 to 3537, somewhere around there. But where do we go from here because as you've written before, the price of music streaming, at least the monthly subscription hasn't necessarily been increasing. The average revenue per user overall, because of the international growth is decreased. And you have plenty of people that are still trying to get their fair share of what they can. It's streaming. So it's in like 510 years from now, if you could see into the future. Where do you think streaming distribution is I think the good thing is that people have smartphones, and there's more and more growth from that perspective. So streaming is going to grow. But on the other hand, the economics of these things do have some theoretical point where we've maximized the global penetration of this. What do you think about where that is going? Will Page  13:17 Let me unpack it in two different lanes. Firstly, I'll deal with the saturation point question which is, you know, how long can this party keep going for it's three o'clock in the morning, who's going to call time on it? And then secondly, I want to deal with the pricing point on its own lien as well. But on saturation point, you're now in a situation where I'd put it as in America, we've had herbivores we've had Spotify growing Apple growing, Amazon growing, YouTube growing, everybody's reporting growth, Pandora even is growing. What we're gonna see at some point soon is carnivores, which is Apple will grow by eating into Spotify as growth or YouTube will grow by eating into Amazon's growth. So the key question we got to ask is, when do we go from the herbivore market we're in today to a carnivore market of tomorrow, and output Spotify as your subscriber number right about 45 million, Apple at 49 million, you dump on top YouTube, Amazon Pandora, you're well past 110, 120 million. Now that's important because I reckon there's around about 110 million qualifying households in America that has at least one person who could pay for a streaming service. This is crucial, because if you look at what Apple one's bundle is doing $30 a month for news, music, television, gaming, fitness, and two terabytes of storage per six accountholder is a household proposition. They're saying to the home, I got you convenience. Everyone under this roof is covered with Apple products. So when you have 110 million households, and you have more than 110 million subscribers in the United States, then we're in a race to the finishing line before herbivores turn into carnivores. In oil. We have this expression called Peak Oil, which is we know that we've extracted more oil in the world and has left to extract an oil All that's left is going to be even more costly to get out of the ground. I think we're in peak subscriber territory where at some point soon we're going to start seeing growth happen through stealing other customers as opposed to finding your own. So I just want to put that warning flag out there just now we're partying like it's 1989 Fine, but at some point, the party has to come to an end and growth is going to come at the expense of other players that then flips Neil from the east side to the B side of this record, we flip it over to price. And then pricing debate is interesting. I published this work called MelB economics, which we can cite on your wonderful website there, which was to look at the 20-year history of the 19 price point. And it's crazy story back in the third of December 2001. Over 20 years ago today, Rhapsody got its license for 999 offerings which had 15,000 songs first point, the origins of 999. Bizarrely deep back to the blockbuster rental card, some cooked-up label executive would have said that it cost 999 to rent videos from blockbuster. That's what it should cost to rent music. Secondly, there was only 15,000 songs with limited use case there was no smartphone back then no apps, no algorithms, that was all a weird world into the future. So you just had 999 for 15,000 songs we're now checking in early April 2022. And it's still 999 in dollar and euro and Sterling. But we're offering 100 million songs. That's the crazy thing. So in the article MelB economics what I do is I, strip inflation out in the case of the UK 999 has fallen down to six pounds 30 pence. Remember, you know family plan makes music cheaper to have 2.3 people are paying 4099, that's six pounds, 50. There's way too many numbers in this conversation for capital. But still, we'll stick with it. Student plan makes it cheaper to sew music in real terms has fallen to six pounds 30 which is less than a medium glass of Malbec wine. So 175 milliliters of Malbec wine costs more than 100 million songs, which is available offline on-demand without adverts that for me is certified bonkers. I don't understand what we've done. We're offering more and more, and we're charging less and less. And you only have to leave the ears to the eyes on the video streaming to see what they're doing on the other side of the fence. Netflix has got me from 799 to 899 to 1299, to now 1499 In the space of 15 months, and I haven't blinked Disney plus, the reason I'm paying for 99 and Disney plus is because I paid 1999 to get Cruella live on-demand. So they're charging more and more, but only offering part of the world's repertoire set for eyeball content. We're charging less and less and offering more and more of the wells, your whole content says like two ships passing each other in the night. It's a very interesting dilemma. Dan Runcie  17:49 It's intriguing because when you look at the way that video is structured, as you mentioned, you have all these price increases. And I think Netflix for some plans is you know, at 99 It's approaching that level. But in music, it's this thing where yeah, there's some price differences where I think I saw today that Amazon music is increasing $1 But that's from 799 for Prime subscribers to that being 899. So, Ross that Will Page  18:17 I wonder if like what caused that? Dan Runcie  18:21 I mean, honestly, I feel like there's something here because when I think about this, I think about a few things, right? Obviously, you do have this fight where the artists want to get more and the labels want to get more, you know, not just for the artist, but for themselves. And obviously, Spotify wants to earn more logically you would think, Okay, if you increase the price, and people just understated the economics of what's likely, if Spotify increased up to 1299 a month for the standard base rate, how many folks would blink. But to your point earlier, I have to imagine that the fear is looking at the trends and where that penetration is, if they jump up to 39 or 1299, then they're going to lose those customers to the other streaming services that have been shoved there yet, because of that thought of, you know, shifting to that carnivore mentality of competing with each other. So because for roughly 80% of the content that they do offer, it is roughly the same between each of the services, it's in when's it to be more of a price war, then in video streaming, where most of them do have some differentiated content Will Page  19:26 100% And two things to hold on to a very eloquent point there. And firstly, let's just remind ourselves that Apple launched superior sound quality, you may remember the commercial of lossless audio, you buy your air pods, which cost two years of Apple Music or Spotify to put in your years and you get superior sound quality, the subtext underneath it said at no extra cost. That was the actual marketing message. So there again, we're improving the offer. We're supplying more, but we're charging less in real terms. And that's a really interesting kind of point can occur. into it. The second thing and we should get balanced into this discussion, because it's delicate is we have to remind ourselves that, you know, there's 120 million subscribers in America, there's still another 100 and 20 million to go. But we know they're not they're interested in paying for music because they haven't paid yet, the best way to attract them is not necessarily to raise price. So we got to remember that there's still no oil to extract, it's not going to be easy oil to extract, the best way to get to it might not be to raise the price. But there's a catch to this. I can remember, in the early noughties, right up to 2010 piracy, ripping the asset out of this business. And concert promoters were saying, We love piracy because the kids are getting music for free so they can pay more on concert tickets. I wonder if now they're saying we love Spotify because they don't raise prices, which means we can raise hours, this is not a discussion of how to rip off the customer. This is a discussion about value exchange. And I just wonder whether recorded music is leaving value on the table. That's the key point to hammer home. Dan Runcie  20:57 That's a good point. And I think that also made me think too, could there be some notion of maintaining the perception of Spotify as something that still has high pricing power is still as high consumer surplus because then that helps the stock price. And then seeing that the major labels are all invested in Spotify itself. It's about like having that perception of you know, the future growth and whatever it is. So what you've just said made me think about that being a factor, potentially to the 100%. Will Page  21:27 And of course, you got to distinguish the Spotify, Apple Music cost structure from that of the video streaming companies, in that they have a kind of variable costs, you double your business, you double your cost base, whereas Netflix, you jump up costs, and you have you jumped up your revenue, you raised me from 799 to 1499, the cost of that content was fixed. And I'm still consuming the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air on Netflix to this day. That is a fixed-cost deal that he did to get that content. And that's margin to Netflix. So you know, the cost structure matters in this one as well. Dan Runcie  21:59 Definitely. And you mentioned like music there. And I think there's a lot to think about from that perspective. I feel like we're in this post-pandemic. I mean, we're still not out of it. But we're in this post-quarantine era, art more artists than ever are trying to tour and get out there try to capture what's there. But also from an economic perspective, from that most people are only going to go to a certain number of live events per year. And we have this 18 to 24-month run coming up where everyone wants to make up for what they couldn't do in the past two years. How will that shift not just who that goes on tour together? And then how they may split those profits, what the availability looks like. And if they're not able to do what they may have done on tour in the late 2010s. How does that affect future touring? I think that's a piece of it that, you know, we still haven't necessarily seen the impact of but it just feels inevitable based on where things are heading. Will Page  22:58 You did absolutely know on touring. I was lucky and I got to do some great work on the UK live industry. And I can only speak for the UK here. I know a lot of your audience knew us, but I think these points will carry across. The first one was to work out how much is spent on concert tickets in Britain during the normal year of 2019. And the answer was 1.7 billion pounds. That's more than was spent on recorded music a lot more than was spent recorded music which makes sense, you know, you pay 120 pounds on your Spotify account, you're paying 240 pounds to go to Reading Festival for two days in a muddy field and reading costs more than 365 days of all the world's music. But what I noticed there was the industry is changing in its growth. I showed that between 2012 The year of the London Olympics, and 2019 the live music industry in this country had exploded and grow but it was lopsided. All the growth came from stadiums, festivals, and to a lesser extent arenas, the theaters, the 2000 3000 capacity theaters like the Fillmore West over where you are, they were getting crushed. They were actually shrinking in size. So we have this lopsided live music industry which is going right in the direction of the head as opposed to the long tail. The stadiums or festivals The arena is as opposed to the theater as the club's the university venues. And that's interesting because that's going to change the dynamics of how you make money from live. Do you go from doing your tour of an album to doing a tour of your festivals for that record? And what does that mean for the cost structure for the insurance and all those things that bands have to consider when you're hitting the road? I mean, credit to trap tool. You've had some great podcasts recently on this topic. But as there's a big rethink coming along in this live music market is not the same as we had back in 2019. It's changed fundamentally and it is the breadwinner for most artists' income I think it makes up about 70% of what an artist has to live for comes from the road that vanished. How do we get it back? Dan Runcie  24:49 I feel like Cardi B has been a good case study on this specific point here, right. It's been four years now since she released an album and she's yet to go on a true proper tour in that time, that said she's done plenty of festivals where she served more on those festival guarantees that she liked what on tour. She's also done many private events where she's likely earned that same amount, if not more. So, there's a whole economic argument to be made. And I think there's also some risk involved, too, right? I think that festivals do give you the opportunity to get that nature back, you get the high number, the revenue that comes through, but maybe your fans will be a little bit more forgiving if you're set-piece at your festival isn't the most extravagant thing, especially if you're not the headliner at it. But on a tour, I think it changes it's a little bit more pressure. Everyone wants to see that Instagrammable or tick talkable moment to then sell future tickets, and just the production costs and everything with traveling. It still is something that is very worthwhile, but I think we've just started to see some of that segmentation there, especially for someone like her I would have to go residencies to I know she's done a few different things in Vegas here and there. But yes, I still yet to do that. 30-city worldwide tour? Will Page  26:12 Yeah, I think you got to think of your head and your heart. Your head says like you point out the economics fevers, festivals, your back lines are your insurances cover travels already covered. I have numerous Hip Hop bands perform at festivals in Europe. And that's one of the big advantages. The costs are all taken care of by the festival. But your heart says what does that do to intimate relationships with your fans, right? You're staring at 50,000 Strangers in the muddy field. That's different from staring at 2000 friends in the Fillmore West. So the heading the horror is going to come into play here. What I would add, though, is that there are rumors I would say here in the UK, at least that the promoters are saying I'll pay you a ton of money to film at the festival to make sure that you don't go on tour. And that's an interesting situation. If you build one too many houses, you collapse the property market. If you have one too many tours or one too many festivals, you collapse like the music industry. So there's ways in which people are trying to restrain the market to festivals at the expense of the theaters that certainly is coming through in the data. We're seeing the theater business, take a kick in well, festivals go on a roll. Dan Runcie  27:12 Yeah. Because I think about you look at the artists that are touring stadiums now whether it's your Taylor Swift or Beyonce is they wouldn't be able to do that if they didn't have the individual tours, that smaller venues when they were starting out being able to build that intimate fan base, like you said, like you get to that point, right. And I do think that as good as festivals can be it is much more of a lucrative cash grab that is I don't want to say necessarily short-term thinking. But I think you ideally want to have some type of balance there, right? Get the big bag that you can get from something else. It's almost no different than I think running a business right? Okay, sure. You may be able to do a speaking fee or do some type of you know, the thing here or there. But you can't do that all the time, especially if it's not an audience are tapped into. You still need to do some of the things that could set you up for the long game. Will Page  28:05 Yeah, and there's an infographic that I'll share with you to pass on to your audience here. I wrote an article in The Economist called smells like Middle East spirit, as opposed to teen spirit and ice play on words had to Dave Grohl and Kurt Cobain, but what I was looking at was the average age of festival headliners over time. This is a doer pessimistic Scottish economist, this is what you do is your spare time. Okay. So in 92, and Radiohead did Glastonbury, the average age of a festival headliner was 2526 years old. And all these hot bands were coming through the Britpop era. You know, there was so much development of new talent by 2012. I think it got up to 58. And I got a lot of criticism for that article, but then Glastonbury that year had the who and Lionel Richie headlining, which I think was 70 and 73 years old, apart, and then you can see the conveyor belt problem, which is okay, it's a quick cash grab, it makes sense. But that's not the conveyor belt of how we develop talent for tomorrow. That's just how we cash in our chips at the casino today. So it does raise questions. And I'm not saying it's like the doomsday scenario here. But we just need a healthy balance of, you know, a seedbed for future growth. And then the big stage of exploiting that moment today, which could be the permanent stage at Glastonbury, the headlights siege up on a roof and mistakes. So I just think we're getting a little bit lopsided here. We're a bit short term system, how this business needs to develop Dan Runcie  29:25 Agreed on that. Switching gears a bit. One thing that you wrote recently that stuck out to me you did this deep dive on music publishing, and I think this is another area that kind of has some of that short term, long term perspective on it, because you look at the people who get the share of the copyright pie, at least today. And from a music streaming perspective, a lot of that has been much more in the favor of the recorded side and then the people getting compensated on the recording side. But with that the songwriters and the PA brochures. A lot of them necessarily in that timeframe didn't get a lot of that. But I think in this wave now where we're seeing more catalog deals, and we're seeing people understand the value of that things may be starting to shift and there's likely other things as well. But what do you think about the way that the publishing side has been seen and what the future opportunities are for that side of the business? Will Page  30:23 Well, the way that labels and publishing were taught to me in terms of what makes them distinct from one another goes back to my Aunt Doreen Lauder, who worked in the music business from 1959 at Decca Records right the way through to 2012. She went enzyme records with Nigel Grange loosens half brother, they were responsible for Sinead O'Connor who sold 11 million albums based on the prints cover. And she once said to me, Will, this is how the music industry works, the record label piece of your drugs and the publishing pays for your pension, just kind of as a nice succinct way of summarizing how the business works. That was then this is now clearly times have changed, I think. But it reminds us about you know what makes the business different. And that piece of work that you cite is something called global value of copyright, where I'm really keen to educate this industry, regardless of whether you're coming from a label perspective, a manager or an artist or songwriter, there's a C with a circle on it called copyright. We get that and it involves record labels. It involves SoundExchange involves artists involves ASCAP, BMI, GMR says EQ involves publishers, David Israeli, and the great folks at the NMPA, and Wall Street, but the whole thing together for me all this spaghetti and straightened out. And what I was able to show was that in 2020, copyright was worth 32 and a half-billion dollars, way bigger than what you've just heard I FPI, way bigger than what CS EC would say, this is the entire thing. And the split was about 65% labels 35% to the publishers. Now if you go way back to 2001 when we used to sell CDs by way of pallet and cocaine capitalism, these have no record labels. Back then, the split was much more in favor of labels no more than three quarters labels less than a quarter to the publishers. And what we've seen happen in the years in between is quite an interesting story. Labels went from boom time with CDs to bust with piracy, and now they're booming again with streaming. And the inverse the opposite happened publishers as labels went bust, ASCAP, BMI, kept on recording record-breaking collections. So you ever hear the toys analogy here of labels going really fast and falling off a cliff publishes as trundled along with record-breaking, not massive record-breaking collections, but he kept on growing their base. So the question he threw up is, what type of industry are we moving towards? Are we going back to our business model which paid labels over three quarters of the pie and publishers less than a quarter? And is that a good or a bad thing? Or in this post-Spotify economy where we're seeing companies like peloton Twitch, TikTok comes to the business is that gonna have a completely different balance. Now, why this matters to your audiences, not just on the creator side. But also on the investment side, you pointed out catalog valuations we can dig into that if you want. But just a high-level point is let's say that in a few year's time, I go into my Batcave again, calculate the global value of copyright, and instead of 32 and a half billion is 40 billion, I'll come on traps or make an exclusive announcement cooperate today is worth 40,000,000,007 and a half billion new dollars have come into this business, I want the audience to start thinking about who gets what share of that marginal new dollar, is that going to split publishing side? Or is that going to split the label side. And if you're investing in catalogs, be the master rights be the author rights that really matters. There's a huge educational drive here to understand the balance of this business of copyright. Dan Runcie  33:45 So there's a few things you said there that I wanted to dig into, of course, for streaming Spotify and its competitors around 75% is going to the recorded side a quarter to publishing but from a breakdown what does that look like for the Tiktoks? The Roblox and the peloton what is that share of revenue from those plays look like? Will Page  34:08 So the best way I could do this is if I just talk about ratios, there's three R's in this business, there's share of revenue, there's ratio, and as rights pool, they mean different things. Most experts get confused with three R's. I'm gonna stick to ratios that is if I give the label $1, how much do I give the publisher, the software, there's collective management organization. So we stick to the conventional streaming model today, I would say that you get the record label $1. You're giving the publishing side of the fence 24 cents, you know, a decent chunk of change, but still the poorer cousin of the record label on YouTube, I think it could be as high as 35 cents 40 cents even because there's a sync right involved in those deals. And then when you take that observation of imposing the sink right into a deal and you expand it to peloton or tic tock potentially even more, and then you can flip it and say well what happens in the future of TiC tock Because karaoke not saying it's gonna happen, but it's not implausible if that was the case that favors publishers even more. There's all these weird ways the business could develop, which could favor one side of the fence, the labels, and the artists continue getting three-quarters of the cash. On the other side of the fence publishers and songwriters start enforcing their rights and getting a more balanced share. And that's what we need to look out for when we're investing in corporates. That's what we need to look out for. If you're a singer and a songwriter. And you're trying to understand your royalty statements. Dan Runcie  35:27 Like how much higher Do you think I mean, if you had to put a percentage on it for the Tiktoks or the pelletize? And I guess as well, you made me think up sync deals, right? Like for the folks that are selling, or their saw gets placed on one of these Hulu series or one of these HBO Max series? Like what is that ratio look like, you know, from a ballpark for those? Will Page  35:50 So I think a 50-50 split would be the upper end of the goal. If a song is placed in a Hulu TV show or you know, an artist I've worked with for many years Eumir Deodato, Brazilian composer, his songs now in this famous EasyJet commercial over here in Europe, the artists and the publisher would see around a 5050 split of those revenues. Now would that happen in a world of streaming? Unlikely, but I think if you can get to a stage where you're giving the record label $1 and the publisher 50 cents as a ratio, and I got to repeat the word ratio here, you know, that's potentially achievable, that listen, post-Spotify economy, I don't think it's going to happen with the business we're looking at today. But I think that's a potential scenario for the business developing tomorrow. That's the thing is, if I can quote Ralph Simon are a longtime mentor to me, he always says, this industry is always about what's happening next. And then he goes on to say, it always has been as a great reminder of just your will restless souls in this business, we've achieved this amazing thing in the past 10 years, we're streaming got that bank there. What's coming next, who would have thought peloton would have had a music licensing department 18 months ago now they're like a top 10 account for major labels. Dan Runcie  36:59 It's impressive. It really is. And I think it's a good reminder. Because anytime that you get a little bit too bullish and excited about what the current thing is, we always got to be thinking about what's next. And you mentioned a few times about a post-Spotify economy. And what does that look like? From your perspective, I think there's likely a number of things that we've already talked about with more of these other b2b platforms or with these other platforms, in general, having licensing deals, but what do you say? Or what do you think about post-Spotify economy? What comes to mind for you? Will Page  37:32 Let me throw my fist your words, your joy, and try and knock you out for a second. We talked about price for a minute. And we talked about streaming. We haven't talked about gaming, but you noticed that Epic Games just acquired Bandcamp, I learned a fascinating stat about Bandcamp, which relates to my book tours and economics. There's a chapter in the book called Mako by, where I sat down with the management of the band Radiohead, we went through the entire in rainbow story for the first time ever a real global exclusive to explain how that deal worked out what they were really achieving when they did their voluntary Tip Jar model. And by the way, can I just put a shout out to one of your listeners, and fly from the Ben-Zion I bet remix of Radiohead have ever heard in my life is live. We're fishies Hip Hop version of the entire album. But Radiohead tested voluntary Tip Jar pricing. Now check this out. If you put your album out on Bandcamp could be a vinyl record. Remember, it's the people who are paying to stream who are also buying vinyl. So if you put a band and album out on Bandcamp, and you say a name, your own price, no minimum, and there's a guidance of 10 bucks, the average paid is 14 People go about 40% asking, and that could be for a super-rich blockbuster artists who try something out on Bandcamp there could be for some band who's broken Brooklyn Robin and cons together trying to make them breed people go 40% above asking when you say name your own price. And that's interesting for me, and there's a great academic paper by Francesca Cornelli from Duke University, she asked how should you price a museum and intuition says top-down mindset, the museum should set the price adults 10 bucks kids, five bucks pensioners, some type of discount arrangement, but she said no, let the visitors set the price because that way rich people will give you even more and poorer people can attend. And you'll see more cash overall. And I would like to see a little bit more of that experimentation around pricing compared to the past 20 years where we've had a ceiling on price where if you really love a band, all you can give a platform is 999 and not a penny more. I think that's we're suffocating love. We're putting a ceiling on love. We need to take that ceiling smash through it and let people express love through different means. But I love that Bandcamp story whatever you suggest I'll give you 40% above because it's our we're not dealing with commodity we're dealing with culture and that's what we got to remind ourselves. Dan Runcie  39:43 It's like the Met model right where at least the last time I went it was like $20 was the recommendation but to your point it at least at some variable threshold, but the people a lot of the people that go there that have a lot of money end up giving much more so I hear you on that I, I noticed though, when you're talking and thinking about the future of this, I didn't hear many of the typical buzzwords and things that you hear about the music industry. Now whether it is NFTs or Web 3.0 or Metaverse, well, maybe to some extent with the Epic Games comparison, but what is your take on that piece of the puzzle, Spotify era. Will Page  40:20 I need $1 and a glass every time I hear these words. So I'm just back from Austin, Texas, South by Southwest, a vague recollection of what happened over there. But I'm telling you, those words were bouncing around more than anything else. Here's a way of capturing of your listeners. This is the first time I've been to South by Southwest where nobody asked me what band did I see last night? Everybody asked me what VR headset that, I try this morning. And that's a sign of the times there and that is a sign of the times. Hey, did you try the Amaze VR headset? You know the make the stallion booty tour? Yeah, I tried that this morning, what Band-Aid nobody wanted to know about bands with pulses. Everybody wants to know about VR headsets. So we live in interesting times. And I think we're in a bit of bubble trouble here. I really do. I don't think this whole thing has been thought out correctly. Firstly, I'll give you an example of where I think the problems gone wrong. And secondly, I want to give you an example from history to show that we've been here before. So with NF T's, it is not. It's not an example of a woman who is happy to spend 1000s 10s of 1000s of dollars on a handbag because they can walk up and down Sixth Avenue and people will see that woman carrying that handbag, the signaling value isn't there. You know, I can buy a token that says I've seen the Mona Lisa on this day and put it in my locker. And if I show you my locker, you can see that I've seen the Mona Lisa that day, and you could buy a token and put it in your locker and you could show your friends that you've seen the Mona Lisa that day, but nobody can buy the Mona Lisa, we can just buy this NFT adaption of the Mona Lisa, but we can't share it across platforms. And that's where I'm struggling. That's where I'm struggling as irrational as that might be to spend 20 $30,000 on a handbag that makes you feel good having the world see you were fine. Do what you got to do. But with NF T's is not a cross-platform token. I'm worried that that's a problem with the model with the price of NF t's just very quickly, there is a term I want to introduce to your show called wash trades, which will meet a legal of 1936 which is basically if you're selling your house, you might employ an estate agent on the buyer side as well as the sell-side to cook up the price. And you can see if you try to do this in the stock market, you spend a lot of time and the chokey six years in jail for manipulating prices. Wash trades have been illegal since 1936. I think there's a problem with wash trades, manipulating the price of NF T's because they're unregulated. So I don't want to be the doer pessimistic, Scottish economist, in the room here pour cold water on this hype machine. But I have some issues with the product. And I have some issues with the price the product is docked to your locker and your locker only the price can be manipulated by ways which be declared illegal in financial markets. Conventional financial markets by wrapping that up. Here's my lesson from history. No Dan, in your record collection. Do you remember a rock band called kiss? Oh yeah. Were you a member of Kiss Army by any chance? Dan Runcie  43:08 I was on the show. Will Page  43:11 Right so if we go back to before I was born 1975, Kiss one of the biggest rock bands in America had something called Kiss Army for their super fans. So you could have kiss wallpaper because models. You could even have Kiss toilet paper. That was one of their top sellers. You could wipe your butt who key with Gene Simmons. That was one of their biggest sellers. And in 1975 They ran a competition on the competition was to say Hey fans, if you want to see a picture of the band with the makeup off there does famous black and white makeup. And we're going to have this competition you pay to enter and five lucky winners will be sent a photograph of the band for the makeup off. Now you're thinking NF TS kiss 1975 Where's he going? Follow me. Hysteria breaks out all these kiss fans in the kiss army want to see Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley with a makeup off. So crazy hyperemic competition the winners are announced the envelopes are sent out. There was five lucky winners get the envelope. They need scissors to open the envelope a pill it is black and white photograph of Kiss with makeup off. And after five seconds of exposure to natural light. The picture feeds genius, genius marketing incredible. But I'm struggling to see the difference between that and 1975 Kiss. You're competing for photographs, which feed in natural light and NFTs today so something I stress my big tours and economics is when you stare into disruption. It's really important to remind yourself that you've been here before and I think Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley have been here before. Dan Runcie  44:37 It's an interesting take. And I do think about the first piece of what you're saying just in terms of something that stays in your wallet. And how do you share that elsewhere? I have seen some of the social platforms making it easier to be like oh hey, you could connect your Coinbase wallet to this whether it's Instagram or I think they're working on it now or to Twitter and you could make that your profile Make sure or you know the people that of course, you know will right click copy paste and save it put that as their profile pictures in different places. So I guess in their minds that's their version of being able to walk down fit that with the duty at Birkbeck, right.  Will Page  45:15 That's interesting. That to your point, that takes you back into handbag territory that corrects for the problem. Let's see if it goes but equally does the NFT lose its exclusivity when we do that as well. So it might work in the short term and might lead to the demise of NF T's over the long term because they're not that special. After all, they're just an icon for your profile picture. So is great to hear that there's that type of thinking going on that justifies my,  justifies my view. Dan Runcie  45:41 Who knows? I mean, we're still early right but I do think that if I see your profile on social media, you turned into a board ape, we may have to have another podcast conversation I did. Will Page  45:55 But I tell you asked him was obsessed with these topics. Even Austin, Texas Music conferences, get obsessed with the next big thing but this year, it was just bizarre how many references I heard to web three NF Ts, but if they can just give a quick shout out to the company amaze VR who are doing the mega stallion tour I watched make the stallion four times in Austin, Texas, I saw more VR of Nicholas Deleon and I saw of any live bear. But you know, they had the longest queues of the entire conference. If you judge success by queues demand exceeding supply, they won South by Southwest for the longest queues. Dan Runcie  46:27 That's impressive. And of course, it makes a big star she's been doing a lot. I've heard a lot of good things from base VR too. I think that though, it'd be a great point to pivot and talk a little bit more about hip hop, the as we know, hip hop has been able to see a lot of its potential even more so. In the streaming era with us, given the popularity that's there. We've seen the numbers, we've seen the growth as well. And I know that you've studied this a lot, especially on the international perspective, just seeing how hip hop is growing in other countries. But I think some of that growth is looking different than what we may be used to seeing in the US. So what is your perspective right now on the state of hip hop with regards to streaming, Will Page  47:09 you speaking about something that's close to my heart, but if I can start by saying, one thing that your podcast has done for me over the years, that reminds us of that famous quote, which has been reiterated by many rappers, which is rap is something you do hip hop is something you live, and we can forget that from time to time can drink a bit too much Kool-Aid and forget those golden words. Rap is something that you do. Hip hop is something that you live, you don't have a choice with hip hop, you live it, rap, I mean, you could play a jazz track, then you could do a rap track, you have a choice there, but hip hop is an eighth. And I want to pull those words up. Because when we talk about the genre of hip hop, I wonder whether it's really a bit of a square peg in a round hole here to take words, which means describe a lifestyle and their attitude or mentality, and then say that it's now a genre. Maybe rap should be the genre and hip hop should be the culture. So I just want to throw that out there for your listeners. And I'd love future guests to come on and pose them that question. If we're discussing the genre of hip hop, are we missing a trick that aside, some stuff which has been popping with hip hop mean, firstly, just the size of the audience in America, just north of 90 million people, there's 90 million regular listeners of hip hop that is phenomenal. If you think about how far the genre has come, the culture has come in 30-plus years. And secondly, who's out there in front. I mean, I would put YouTube as the number one venue for hip hop in the United States, Spotify, Apple, Amazon, they're all doing their things. But I think it's worth just reminding ourselves how important YouTube is to our culture. As opposed to Amazon Spotify. Apple is depressing your thumb on a piece of glass during a track. Repeat. Rap is something you do hip hop is something you live and you've had to Mercer, one of my longtime mentors on your show, just we'll back to that past podcast to get to where I'm coming from on that point. I think the interesting thing for me speaking as a non-American on a podcast with a large American audience to watch how it's growing out of the countries and one of the most interesting things for me was non-English speaking hip hop. Now, my sister who's a French translator, Annie, she introduced me to a rapper called MC solo way, way back in the day, back in the 90s. Even and I don't speak French, but the rap was just incredible, like the way that the French language flowed over a beat. He certainly won't recall any tempo. That was incredible. So, you know, I've always had an appreciation for how hip hop travels beyond its borders, playlists. Without Borders. Hip hop is without borders. So I just wanted to introduce your audience to a very interesting backstory in Holland and the Netherlands, where Spotify the first country, we scaled him outside of Norway and Sweden was the Netherlands. We got big there really quickly 2011, 2012 era and because we got big we could put some local foot soldiers on the ground to help with curation. And for the first time ever in the company's history. We started taking Hip Hop curation seriously outside of our core markets and because we're supplying curation that was met with demand and all of a sudden, we started seeing these Dutch language hip hop artists explode in Holland, Ronnie flex being a great example. I think around 2018, we ran the data. And we learned that Drake was the number one artist in the world on Spotify. Yet in Holland, he was an eighth biggest hip-hop artist. And the seven above him were Dutch rapping in a local language of Dutch. And that was just jaw-dropping to think about globalization, culture, back to the Jungle Brothers the lesson they taught me in 1989, getting the message across without crossing over how you can have local language, hip hop travel, like no other genre there is across the world. And you're seeing that happen in Germany, France, you're seeing it happen in Asia. And so it's important to apply a global lens to hip hop and ask what is it about this culture, which is leading it to travel in a way that other cultures are not traveling is that the expression is that the belief is that the conviction that comes through hip hop, and that's that there's a book on that topic, and then you'd be a perfect person to try and write it, I can get you an agent. And I'd be out of my depth, but just so really important see to so which is why is this culture traveling, like no other culture, I can see on a music platform. Dan Runcie  51:12 It's fascinating. It's something I've thought about a lot. I'm glad you mentioned that, because I think about a rapper, like Devine from India, or I think about some of the artists from the Middle East as well. And I think there's similar trends there where hip hop is still the most dominant thing, but they're artists that are from their regions are the ones that are the most popular. And I think it stems back to thinking about the origins of hip hop and looking at where a lot of those other countries may be. Now you look at what the public enemy had done, or even look a bit earlier, like Grandmaster Flash and have done their share of realities of the environments that they're in their storytelling in a way that isn't being done by the mass media. And we're in an era now, you know, more than ever, we see everything happening in the world where, what a lot of the heads of states, or what a lot of the governments or main distribution, communication platforms in these countries are sharing isn't necessarily reflecting what's happening in those places. So because of that, you have people wanting to speak out on that. And I think that because people realizing what the public enemy was able to do in some of those other groups here by them saying, you know, we are the black CNN, we are the voice communicating that I think you saw a lot of that in these other countries. So even if it's different artists, you're seeing them share their version of what's happening on the ground. And I think, like anything else, the evolution of that continues to grow over time. It's been, it's been really fascinating to see that. And I think that is what, at least for me always makes it feel like this is the global language that keeps everyone connected in this space. Even if people are speaking clearly different languages from artists you don't know there's that common theme that you can tell even if you're watching a music video or getting a vibe of what they're doing. There's so many through lights there. Will Page  53:02 Those comments are deeper than Loch Ness, so they can quickly top it up with two thoughts, just thinking aloud here. This is why I love about your podcast is with the way you take the conversation with just firstly, just a historical point. And as I mentioned with my book tours and economics, when you're staring at the disruption to remind yourself that you've been here before, when I hear stories about suppression by governments leading to a rise of hip hop as a culture rap as an art form. You just got to go back to 1877 New Orleans and remind yourselves how jazz came into being your Creole people. You know, when Jim Crow laws were reintroduced through the backdoor before since the African American community overnight, so you took classically trained middle-class Creole people brought into a culture which had the blues and African drumming, and out of that suppression came the creation that was jazz. And it's just I love when you alluded to government suppression resulting in creativity. It's just interesting to think how we keep on you know, history doesn't repeat itself, it rhymes. And it's rhyming here when you start to think about the origins of jazz to what we're seeing happen with hip hop. And then the second thing I mentioned earlier that, you know, the internet can scale just about anything you want, but it can't scale intimacy. I wonder whether that's what hip hop is doing because it's, it's a postcard its storytelling is beginning with the word imagine and asking you to imagine the picture these words are creating, you know, that's doing something which I don't think your conventional verse-chorus, verse, chorus, rock or pop song is going to deliver. So the message getting the message across without coordinate crossing over. The message that we're getting across with hip hop is different from other forms of music. And that might explain a little bit about success at home and overseas that we've seen on streaming. Dan Runcie  54:43 Definitely. Well, well, this is great. Thanks again for coming on. If you're listening, definitely make sure that you check out Tarzan economics. I can't recommend this book enough. I think that will is extremely sharp. And he's a thought leader in this space and it's been great to learn from him. So well. Thanks for coming on. And before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug in or let the travel audience know about? Will Page  55:07 I have gotten no more travel plans to the States this year. But if they can just ask the audience to check out the mix on Mixcloud we ain't done with 2021 with a shout-out from Dan Runcie, himself, and many others, Mike G is on that mix Lord is on that mix. But I just hope that your audience because the show trapped will mean so much to me. I just hope the audience sees me as a DJ first and an economist a distant second that I can just land that point at the end of this podcast, I'd be happy. Dan Runcie  55:33 That's a great note to end on. Well, thanks again. Will Page  55:36 Thank you so much. Dan Runcie  55:38 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. One of the most unique insights into the state of the music business today doesn’t come from a record label exec. Not from an agent. Not from an artist. No, it comes from Scottish economist Will Page, who served that role for Spotify from 2012 to 2019 — a period of explosive growth for the streaming giant. But if you ask Page about streaming’s future, he’s not nearly as optimistic as the rest of the industry. “The party has to come to an end,” as he told me on this episode of Trapital.


Page believes the music industry is transitioning from a “herbivore market” to a “carnivore” one. In other words, future growth will not come from brand-new customers — it’ll come from the streaming services eating into each other’s market share. Not only has subscriber counts possibly tapped out in Page’s opinion, but streaming services have also put a ceiling on revenues by charging only $9.99, a price that hasn’t budged in 20 years despite giant leaps in technology and music catalog size.  


That against-the-grain prediction was one of many Will shared with me during our in-depth interview. But he has plenty more research- and experience-backed thoughts on touring, vinyl records, Web 3.0, and everything in between. Believe me, this is an interview you don’t want to miss. Here’s everything we covered: 


[0:00] The 3 R’s in the business of music

[3:15] Will’s experience being a DJ

[7:10] Lopsided Growth Of Music Streaming In Global Markets

[8:59] Vinyl Records $1.5 Billion Recovery 

[13:18] Will’s Bearish View About The Future Of Streaming

[15:22] Ongoing Price War Between Streaming Services

[22:59] The Changing Economics Of Music Touring 

[26:16] Performing At Festivals Vs. Tours 

[30:50] The Evolution Of Music Publishing

[34:32] How Music Revenue Gets Distributed To Publishers

[37:35] What Does A “Post-Spotify Economy” Look Like? 

[40:00] Will’s Biggest Issues With Web3 

[47:01] The Current Business Landscape Of Hip-Hop 


Listen to Will’s mix right here: https://www.mixcloud.com/willpagesnc/we-aint-done-with-2021/


Check out Will’s Podcast, Bubble Trouble, where he breaks down how financial markets really work.


Read Will’s book, Tarzan Economics: Eight Principles for Pivoting Through Disruption.


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Will Page, @willpageauthor 

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.

_____

TRANSCRIPT


Will Page  00:00

The best way I could do this is, I just talk about ratios. There are three R's in this business, there's share of revenue, there's ratio, and as rates pool, they mean different things. Most experts get confused with the three R's.


I'm gonna stick to ratios that is, if I give the label $1, how much do I give the publisher, the software, there's collective management organization? So we stick to the conventional streaming model today, I would say that you get the record label $1, you're giving the publishing side of the fence 24 cents, you know, a decent chunk of change, but still the poorer cousin of the record label. On YouTube, I think it could be as high as 35 cents, 40 cents even because there's a sink right involved in those deals.


Dan Runcie  00:46

Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. 


Today's guest is Will Page. He is the author of a book I cannot recommend enough. It's called Tarzan Economics. It's a guide to pivoting through disruption. This is a must-read if you're working in music, media, or entertainment. He is also a Visiting Fellow at the London School of Economics. He is the former Chief Economist at Spotify. So if you are interested in where the music industry is heading, where trends are going, this is the person to talk to. I was first put onto Will’s work, he had released this white paper called Rockonomics. And it was a breakdown on how artists were using Twitch. I wrote about the report in Trapital because I was fascinated by it. And then he and I started talking from there. So it was only a matter of time before he came on the podcast. 


Will and I covered a bunch in this episode, we talked about the growth of streaming, we also talked about the growth of vinyl, and how that impacts the economics for a lot of artists and songwriters and publishers. We also talked about the price of streaming services. Most services are still $9.99 per month in the US. So we talked about why that is for music compared to video streaming, where Netflix Hulu, and Amazon have been increasing their prices for their respective services. We also talked about music publishing and why Will thinks that that catalog will continue to grow. We talked about live music and some of the potential constraints where now the next 24 months everyone wants to go on tour. But there's only so many venues and so much money that consumers have unwillingness to see live shows. So we've talked about that we talked about trends in hip hop, we'll have a bunch of exclusive numbers to share in this. And it was great to talk to him. It's been great to also Jessica T to learn from him. I honestly do believe that he's one of the sharpest minds in the music industry. And it was a pleasure to have him on this podcast. And I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Here's my chat with Will Page. Alright, today we got the one and only Will Page with us. He is well known in the music and media space as an economist, but he also spent a lot of time as a DJ. And I feel like that could be a good place for us to start the conversation. Will, talk to me about your DJ experience and what you've been doing there recently.


Will Page  03:22

Well, I've been DJing since the age of puberty. And it was all inspired by one lyric by a rapper called Mike G from The Jungle Brothers from an album called done by the forces of nature, where he dropped his library. He said it's about getting the music across the message across getting it across without crossing over. And unlike a 14-year-old kid when I hear this, and I just thought about those words, getting the music across without crossing over, how do you get out to an audience without diluting its integrity. I'm only 14 at the time. But that just resonated with me so strongly, and I just kind of dedicated a huge chunk of my life to trying to get the music across to an audience that would otherwise not have heard it. And I'm not diluting how it's been presented. That's what a DJ can do. You can thread songs together in a way that gets music across without its dilution without crossing it over.


Dan Runcie  04:11

And I feel like, for you, you've been able to carry that through, you had we're not done we are done with 2021 I was able to do a quick drop for that as well. So I think what's likely inspiring for a lot of folks is that there's so many people that have music backgrounds and passions early on, but there's a pause if they're not able to continue that but you've been able to keep this as part of your charity, which I think makes so much of what you do with this space authentic because you yourself are someone who releases music.


Will Page  04:40

Yeah, I mean, the mix cloud allowed me to scale what I was doing anyway, if I go back to university in the late 90s early noughties you'd make mixtapes mix cassettes. There's a great way to date girls, but you could only do maybe like 50 100 at tops. Mix cloud allows you to take what you do and scale it scale what you love to do and the mixer UK only gave us a drop for weighing in dama 2021. That makes us no-hit 27,000 on Mixcloud meaning have overtaken Erykah Badu one of your former guests, I believe. So, you know, to get to 20,000 unique people with a mix that you care a year crafting together, that means the world to me.


Dan Runcie  05:15

It's a lot. And that's powerful, too. I imagined that you're always not just finding the sounds that make the most vibe for the year. But you're also thinking about, okay, what is the way that things are moving, especially at the pandemic? I feel like it's such an interesting year to have something like that. Because I think for some people, it's a year that they want to remember a year, they don't want to remember as well. But I feel like you probably already have a few things lined up for the mix you'll do at the end of 2022.


Will Page  05:45

Yeah, I mean, you're always looking for the bands that are not on Spotify, not an Apple Music, I think about half of my mix this year, you will not find in a streaming service. And I'm proud of that you're going to Discogs to find those rare white label bootleg vinyls, you're going to the source to the artists who are in the studio recording. And to you know, profile bands like Sault, or London-based bands, S-A-U-L-T, on that mix. That meant the world because I've been watching them rise over the past few years now. And, you know, to this day, nobody has any idea what the band look like, who the band are made up of, you know, this, like punk music, they're rejecting the system, they're doing it completely separately. And they're, you know, not hitting millions of people on Spotify with their music, they've let the music do the talking. So I often think about mixed culture as a break it down this way, the internet can scale just about anything, but it can't scale intimacy, and a playlist or as an intimate, that's just a bunch of songs straddle together and work them through the shuffle play feature, but a mix, a DJ mix of 60 minutes seamless mix, where you have vocal drops, you have beat mixing, you have layering, all those techniques that you've honed over the years, that's intimate. So what I'm able to do with mixtape culture is to scale intimacy, and that goes out for every other DJ you've had on your show. That's what we're trying to do right.


Dan Runcie  07:05

For sure. And I feel like that's a good segue to chat a little bit more about some of the work you've done for a company that is very heavily focused on playlists, which is Spotify. And I think more broadly, looking at the streaming ever we're in right now, this is a great time to chat because we just saw the IFP results. And streaming is continuing to grow, as we've seen, but I feel like you've probably spotted a few interesting trends about where things are heading. And I think that's a question of art for a lot of people streaming continues to grow, but how far can it grow? What are we seeing in terms of differences within genres or regions? What are some of the things that stuck out to you?


Will Page  07:43

I'll give you a couple. The first one is the global business. Well, last time I looked at the United Nations, I think there's 208 countries in the world, the global yearbook that we're discussing here, has I think, 58. So we have to be careful what we define as global. I think Africa's clubbed together as one continent with a need to work on that. But I think the global business is growing, but it's also becoming more American. So if you go back to when Spotify launched, Americans made up 20 to 23% of the business round, about just over a fifth today, it's 37%. So we have seen the business grow and become more American. And that raises questions, economic questions, like globalization questions, should poor countries catch up with rich ones, a theory says yes, the reality often says no, so we're seeing this kind of lopsided growth where the business is growing, but it's growing in favor of an American market, the biggest country is growing at the fastest rates. That's a positive problem, but I just want to flag it, which is that's not how it was supposed to play out. And then the second thing I'd want to point to as well as just vinyl, this vinyl recovery is just Well, I don't know how much my bank balance is responsible for this vinyl recovery. But I'm telling you, is defying the laws of gravity. Now we're now looking at Vinyl being worth one and a half-billion dollars, which is more than it's been worth in the past 30 years. It's worth more than CDs, cassettes, and downloads the three formats that were supposed to declare that vinyl is dead, but there's two things you can kind of cut out the vinyl recovery, which I think will be of real interest to your audience. Firstly, on the consumer side, I saw a survey which suggested that the majority just over half of all vinyl buyers today don't own a record player. I mean, something's cooking here. So why are we buying it for now I'll extend that as well. The cost of wall frames to frame vinyl on your wall often costs more than the record itself. So I'm willing to pay more for vinyl to be called New framed on my wall than I am for the record. And by the way, I don't have a record player that a lot of people will take those bizarre boxes, but on the creator side, something else is interesting. It'll take a little bit of working through but if we think about the streaming model is monetizing consumption, that's what it does. So there's an album A 10 songs, three killer and seven filler songs and an album Let's say Dan runs, he wrote the three killer tracks, and we'll page the seven Duff filler tracks. On streaming, Dan might walk away with all the money, and I'll walk away with none. Because we're only streaming the killer tracks and nobody's touching the filler. As the album model kicks out from vinyl, I would get 70% of the cache. That's crazy because nobody knows what's being consumed. And it's a lot of cash by just kind of do some rough math, you have a million fans streaming your hip hop record on Spotify. And let's say they're streaming it 200 times in the month when the album drops, you only need 20,000 of them of that million to make the same amount of money from vinyl than you would do from streams, which is entirely plausible. But then how do you pay the copyright owners from those songs on an album is very different from how you pay them on a stream. If you go back to the late 70s. The one most successful records of all time was Saturday Night Fever, the BGS, and a bunch of other people. It's crazy to think that Ralph McDonald's Calypso struck his record there, which nobody has listened to, but the same royalty as staying alive by the BGS. Because it was a vinyl record. So to reiterate, on the consumer side, I don't know how many of these vinyl records are being played. And on the creative side, it raises questions about how these creators are going to get paid.


Dan Runcie  11:16

That's a good point. But that I don't think is being talked about as much about the vinyl search, because there's so much like wow, about just how much has been purchased. I think I haven't saw the stat that Adele's 30 albums sold 8000 cassettes or there’s a self-titled stat about that. And I think the similar thing that you said lines up, I think those people actually still own a Walkman or whatever type of cassette player that they have. So I do think that that is something that probably there could be a deeper analysis on. Because a lot of the people that write the filler songs, how do they feel whether you're a songwriter, whether you know what's behind it, especially when you know that there's so much clearer path to be able to determine, Okay, this is going to be the lead single that this is what we're going to push most from this album, it really shifts the exhibit more to where things are going in terms of a single market and like the way that people have talked about pop music for a while now. Right. And I guess that brings me back to the streaming trends that you mentioned, overall, we're in this area, as you mentioned, streaming itself that US penetration has grown from 22%, I believe you said is now 30 to 3537, somewhere around there. But where do we go from here because as you've written before, the price of music streaming, at least the monthly subscription hasn't necessarily been increasing. The average revenue per user overall, because of the international growth is decreased. And you have plenty of people that are still trying to get their fair share of what they can. It's streaming. So it's in like 510 years from now, if you could see into the future. Where do you think streaming distribution is I think the good thing is that people have smartphones, and there's more and more growth from that perspective. So streaming is going to grow. But on the other hand, the economics of these things do have some theoretical point where we've maximized the global penetration of this. What do you think about where that is going?


Will Page  13:17

Let me unpack it in two different lanes. Firstly, I'll deal with the saturation point question which is, you know, how long can this party keep going for it's three o'clock in the morning, who's going to call time on it? And then secondly, I want to deal with the pricing point on its own lien as well. But on saturation point, you're now in a situation where I'd put it as in America, we've had herbivores we've had Spotify growing Apple growing, Amazon growing, YouTube growing, everybody's reporting growth, Pandora even is growing. What we're gonna see at some point soon is carnivores, which is Apple will grow by eating into Spotify as growth or YouTube will grow by eating into Amazon's growth. So the key question we got to ask is, when do we go from the herbivore market we're in today to a carnivore market of tomorrow, and output Spotify as your subscriber number right about 45 million, Apple at 49 million, you dump on top YouTube, Amazon Pandora, you're well past 110, 120 million. Now that's important because I reckon there's around about 110 million qualifying households in America that has at least one person who could pay for a streaming service. This is crucial, because if you look at what Apple one's bundle is doing $30 a month for news, music, television, gaming, fitness, and two terabytes of storage per six accountholder is a household proposition. They're saying to the home, I got you convenience. Everyone under this roof is covered with Apple products. So when you have 110 million households, and you have more than 110 million subscribers in the United States, then we're in a race to the finishing line before herbivores turn into carnivores. In oil. We have this expression called Peak Oil, which is we know that we've extracted more oil in the world and has left to extract an oil All that's left is going to be even more costly to get out of the ground. I think we're in peak subscriber territory where at some point soon we're going to start seeing growth happen through stealing other customers as opposed to finding your own. So I just want to put that warning flag out there just now we're partying like it's 1989 Fine, but at some point, the party has to come to an end and growth is going to come at the expense of other players that then flips Neil from the east side to the B side of this record, we flip it over to price. And then pricing debate is interesting. I published this work called MelB economics, which we can cite on your wonderful website there, which was to look at the 20-year history of the 19 price point. And it's crazy story back in the third of December 2001. Over 20 years ago today, Rhapsody got its license for 999 offerings which had 15,000 songs first point, the origins of 999. Bizarrely deep back to the blockbuster rental card, some cooked-up label executive would have said that it cost 999 to rent videos from blockbuster. That's what it should cost to rent music. Secondly, there was only 15,000 songs with limited use case there was no smartphone back then no apps, no algorithms, that was all a weird world into the future. So you just had 999 for 15,000 songs we're now checking in early April 2022. And it's still 999 in dollar and euro and Sterling. But we're offering 100 million songs. That's the crazy thing. So in the article MelB economics what I do is I, strip inflation out in the case of the UK 999 has fallen down to six pounds 30 pence. Remember, you know family plan makes music cheaper to have 2.3 people are paying 4099, that's six pounds, 50. There's way too many numbers in this conversation for capital. But still, we'll stick with it. Student plan makes it cheaper to sew music in real terms has fallen to six pounds 30 which is less than a medium glass of Malbec wine. So 175 milliliters of Malbec wine costs more than 100 million songs, which is available offline on-demand without adverts that for me is certified bonkers. I don't understand what we've done. We're offering more and more, and we're charging less and less. And you only have to leave the ears to the eyes on the video streaming to see what they're doing on the other side of the fence. Netflix has got me from 799 to 899 to 1299, to now 1499 In the space of 15 months, and I haven't blinked Disney plus, the reason I'm paying for 99 and Disney plus is because I paid 1999 to get Cruella live on-demand. So they're charging more and more, but only offering part of the world's repertoire set for eyeball content. We're charging less and less and offering more and more of the wells, your whole content says like two ships passing each other in the night. It's a very interesting dilemma.


Dan Runcie  17:49

It's intriguing because when you look at the way that video is structured, as you mentioned, you have all these price increases. And I think Netflix for some plans is you know, at 99 It's approaching that level. But in music, it's this thing where yeah, there's some price differences where I think I saw today that Amazon music is increasing $1 But that's from 799 for Prime subscribers to that being 899. So, Ross that


Will Page  18:17

I wonder if like what caused that?


Dan Runcie  18:21

I mean, honestly, I feel like there's something here because when I think about this, I think about a few things, right? Obviously, you do have this fight where the artists want to get more and the labels want to get more, you know, not just for the artist, but for themselves. And obviously, Spotify wants to earn more logically you would think, Okay, if you increase the price, and people just understated the economics of what's likely, if Spotify increased up to 1299 a month for the standard base rate, how many folks would blink. But to your point earlier, I have to imagine that the fear is looking at the trends and where that penetration is, if they jump up to 39 or 1299, then they're going to lose those customers to the other streaming services that have been shoved there yet, because of that thought of, you know, shifting to that carnivore mentality of competing with each other. So because for roughly 80% of the content that they do offer, it is roughly the same between each of the services, it's in when's it to be more of a price war, then in video streaming, where most of them do have some differentiated content


Will Page  19:26

100% And two things to hold on to a very eloquent point there. And firstly, let's just remind ourselves that Apple launched superior sound quality, you may remember the commercial of lossless audio, you buy your air pods, which cost two years of Apple Music or Spotify to put in your years and you get superior sound quality, the subtext underneath it said at no extra cost. That was the actual marketing message. So there again, we're improving the offer. We're supplying more, but we're charging less in real terms. And that's a really interesting kind of point can occur. into it. The second thing and we should get balanced into this discussion, because it's delicate is we have to remind ourselves that, you know, there's 120 million subscribers in America, there's still another 100 and 20 million to go. But we know they're not they're interested in paying for music because they haven't paid yet, the best way to attract them is not necessarily to raise price. So we got to remember that there's still no oil to extract, it's not going to be easy oil to extract, the best way to get to it might not be to raise the price. But there's a catch to this. I can remember, in the early noughties, right up to 2010 piracy, ripping the asset out of this business. And concert promoters were saying, We love piracy because the kids are getting music for free so they can pay more on concert tickets. I wonder if now they're saying we love Spotify because they don't raise prices, which means we can raise hours, this is not a discussion of how to rip off the customer. This is a discussion about value exchange. And I just wonder whether recorded music is leaving value on the table. That's the key point to hammer home.


Dan Runcie  20:57

That's a good point. And I think that also made me think too, could there be some notion of maintaining the perception of Spotify as something that still has high pricing power is still as high consumer surplus because then that helps the stock price. And then seeing that the major labels are all invested in Spotify itself. It's about like having that perception of you know, the future growth and whatever it is. So what you've just said made me think about that being a factor, potentially to the 100%.


Will Page  21:27

And of course, you got to distinguish the Spotify, Apple Music cost structure from that of the video streaming companies, in that they have a kind of variable costs, you double your business, you double your cost base, whereas Netflix, you jump up costs, and you have you jumped up your revenue, you raised me from 799 to 1499, the cost of that content was fixed. And I'm still consuming the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air on Netflix to this day. That is a fixed-cost deal that he did to get that content. And that's margin to Netflix. So you know, the cost structure matters in this one as well.


Dan Runcie  21:59

Definitely. And you mentioned like music there. And I think there's a lot to think about from that perspective. I feel like we're in this post-pandemic. I mean, we're still not out of it. But we're in this post-quarantine era, art more artists than ever are trying to tour and get out there try to capture what's there. But also from an economic perspective, from that most people are only going to go to a certain number of live events per year. And we have this 18 to 24-month run coming up where everyone wants to make up for what they couldn't do in the past two years. How will that shift not just who that goes on tour together? And then how they may split those profits, what the availability looks like. And if they're not able to do what they may have done on tour in the late 2010s. How does that affect future touring? I think that's a piece of it that, you know, we still haven't necessarily seen the impact of but it just feels inevitable based on where things are heading.


Will Page  22:58

You did absolutely know on touring. I was lucky and I got to do some great work on the UK live industry. And I can only speak for the UK here. I know a lot of your audience knew us, but I think these points will carry across. The first one was to work out how much is spent on concert tickets in Britain during the normal year of 2019. And the answer was 1.7 billion pounds. That's more than was spent on recorded music a lot more than was spent recorded music which makes sense, you know, you pay 120 pounds on your Spotify account, you're paying 240 pounds to go to Reading Festival for two days in a muddy field and reading costs more than 365 days of all the world's music. But what I noticed there was the industry is changing in its growth. I showed that between 2012 The year of the London Olympics, and 2019 the live music industry in this country had exploded and grow but it was lopsided. All the growth came from stadiums, festivals, and to a lesser extent arenas, the theaters, the 2000 3000 capacity theaters like the Fillmore West over where you are, they were getting crushed. They were actually shrinking in size. So we have this lopsided live music industry which is going right in the direction of the head as opposed to the long tail. The stadiums or festivals The arena is as opposed to the theater as the club's the university venues. And that's interesting because that's going to change the dynamics of how you make money from live. Do you go from doing your tour of an album to doing a tour of your festivals for that record? And what does that mean for the cost structure for the insurance and all those things that bands have to consider when you're hitting the road? I mean, credit to trap tool. You've had some great podcasts recently on this topic. But as there's a big rethink coming along in this live music market is not the same as we had back in 2019. It's changed fundamentally and it is the breadwinner for most artists' income I think it makes up about 70% of what an artist has to live for comes from the road that vanished. How do we get it back?


Dan Runcie  24:49

I feel like Cardi B has been a good case study on this specific point here, right. It's been four years now since she released an album and she's yet to go on a true proper tour in that time, that said she's done plenty of festivals where she served more on those festival guarantees that she liked what on tour. She's also done many private events where she's likely earned that same amount, if not more. So, there's a whole economic argument to be made. And I think there's also some risk involved, too, right? I think that festivals do give you the opportunity to get that nature back, you get the high number, the revenue that comes through, but maybe your fans will be a little bit more forgiving if you're set-piece at your festival isn't the most extravagant thing, especially if you're not the headliner at it. But on a tour, I think it changes it's a little bit more pressure. Everyone wants to see that Instagrammable or tick talkable moment to then sell future tickets, and just the production costs and everything with traveling. It still is something that is very worthwhile, but I think we've just started to see some of that segmentation there, especially for someone like her I would have to go residencies to I know she's done a few different things in Vegas here and there. But yes, I still yet to do that. 30-city worldwide tour?


Will Page  26:12

Yeah, I think you got to think of your head and your heart. Your head says like you point out the economics fevers, festivals, your back lines are your insurances cover travels already covered. I have numerous Hip Hop bands perform at festivals in Europe. And that's one of the big advantages. The costs are all taken care of by the festival. But your heart says what does that do to intimate relationships with your fans, right? You're staring at 50,000 Strangers in the muddy field. That's different from staring at 2000 friends in the Fillmore West. So the heading the horror is going to come into play here. What I would add, though, is that there are rumors I would say here in the UK, at least that the promoters are saying I'll pay you a ton of money to film at the festival to make sure that you don't go on tour. And that's an interesting situation. If you build one too many houses, you collapse the property market. If you have one too many tours or one too many festivals, you collapse like the music industry. So there's ways in which people are trying to restrain the market to festivals at the expense of the theaters that certainly is coming through in the data. We're seeing the theater business, take a kick in well, festivals go on a roll.


Dan Runcie  27:12

Yeah. Because I think about you look at the artists that are touring stadiums now whether it's your Taylor Swift or Beyonce is they wouldn't be able to do that if they didn't have the individual tours, that smaller venues when they were starting out being able to build that intimate fan base, like you said, like you get to that point, right. And I do think that as good as festivals can be it is much more of a lucrative cash grab that is I don't want to say necessarily short-term thinking. But I think you ideally want to have some type of balance there, right? Get the big bag that you can get from something else. It's almost no different than I think running a business right? Okay, sure. You may be able to do a speaking fee or do some type of you know, the thing here or there. But you can't do that all the time, especially if it's not an audience are tapped into. You still need to do some of the things that could set you up for the long game.


Will Page  28:05

Yeah, and there's an infographic that I'll share with you to pass on to your audience here. I wrote an article in The Economist called smells like Middle East spirit, as opposed to teen spirit and ice play on words had to Dave Grohl and Kurt Cobain, but what I was looking at was the average age of festival headliners over time. This is a doer pessimistic Scottish economist, this is what you do is your spare time. Okay. So in 92, and Radiohead did Glastonbury, the average age of a festival headliner was 2526 years old. And all these hot bands were coming through the Britpop era. You know, there was so much development of new talent by 2012. I think it got up to 58. And I got a lot of criticism for that article, but then Glastonbury that year had the who and Lionel Richie headlining, which I think was 70 and 73 years old, apart, and then you can see the conveyor belt problem, which is okay, it's a quick cash grab, it makes sense. But that's not the conveyor belt of how we develop talent for tomorrow. That's just how we cash in our chips at the casino today. So it does raise questions. And I'm not saying it's like the doomsday scenario here. But we just need a healthy balance of, you know, a seedbed for future growth. And then the big stage of exploiting that moment today, which could be the permanent stage at Glastonbury, the headlights siege up on a roof and mistakes. So I just think we're getting a little bit lopsided here. We're a bit short term system, how this business needs to develop


Dan Runcie  29:25

Agreed on that. Switching gears a bit. One thing that you wrote recently that stuck out to me you did this deep dive on music publishing, and I think this is another area that kind of has some of that short term, long term perspective on it, because you look at the people who get the share of the copyright pie, at least today. And from a music streaming perspective, a lot of that has been much more in the favor of the recorded side and then the people getting compensated on the recording side. But with that the songwriters and the PA brochures. A lot of them necessarily in that timeframe didn't get a lot of that. But I think in this wave now where we're seeing more catalog deals, and we're seeing people understand the value of that things may be starting to shift and there's likely other things as well. But what do you think about the way that the publishing side has been seen and what the future opportunities are for that side of the business?


Will Page  30:23

Well, the way that labels and publishing were taught to me in terms of what makes them distinct from one another goes back to my Aunt Doreen Lauder, who worked in the music business from 1959 at Decca Records right the way through to 2012. She went enzyme records with Nigel Grange loosens half brother, they were responsible for Sinead O'Connor who sold 11 million albums based on the prints cover. And she once said to me, Will, this is how the music industry works, the record label piece of your drugs and the publishing pays for your pension, just kind of as a nice succinct way of summarizing how the business works. That was then this is now clearly times have changed, I think. But it reminds us about you know what makes the business different. And that piece of work that you cite is something called global value of copyright, where I'm really keen to educate this industry, regardless of whether you're coming from a label perspective, a manager or an artist or songwriter, there's a C with a circle on it called copyright. We get that and it involves record labels. It involves SoundExchange involves artists involves ASCAP, BMI, GMR says EQ involves publishers, David Israeli, and the great folks at the NMPA, and Wall Street, but the whole thing together for me all this spaghetti and straightened out. And what I was able to show was that in 2020, copyright was worth 32 and a half-billion dollars, way bigger than what you've just heard I FPI, way bigger than what CS EC would say, this is the entire thing. And the split was about 65% labels 35% to the publishers. Now if you go way back to 2001 when we used to sell CDs by way of pallet and cocaine capitalism, these have no record labels. Back then, the split was much more in favor of labels no more than three quarters labels less than a quarter to the publishers. And what we've seen happen in the years in between is quite an interesting story. Labels went from boom time with CDs to bust with piracy, and now they're booming again with streaming. And the inverse the opposite happened publishers as labels went bust, ASCAP, BMI, kept on recording record-breaking collections. So you ever hear the toys analogy here of labels going really fast and falling off a cliff publishes as trundled along with record-breaking, not massive record-breaking collections, but he kept on growing their base. So the question he threw up is, what type of industry are we moving towards? Are we going back to our business model which paid labels over three quarters of the pie and publishers less than a quarter? And is that a good or a bad thing? Or in this post-Spotify economy where we're seeing companies like peloton Twitch, TikTok comes to the business is that gonna have a completely different balance. Now, why this matters to your audiences, not just on the creator side. But also on the investment side, you pointed out catalog valuations we can dig into that if you want. But just a high-level point is let's say that in a few year's time, I go into my Batcave again, calculate the global value of copyright, and instead of 32 and a half billion is 40 billion, I'll come on traps or make an exclusive announcement cooperate today is worth 40,000,000,007 and a half billion new dollars have come into this business, I want the audience to start thinking about who gets what share of that marginal new dollar, is that going to split publishing side? Or is that going to split the label side. And if you're investing in catalogs, be the master rights be the author rights that really matters. There's a huge educational drive here to understand the balance of this business of copyright.


Dan Runcie  33:45

So there's a few things you said there that I wanted to dig into, of course, for streaming Spotify and its competitors around 75% is going to the recorded side a quarter to publishing but from a breakdown what does that look like for the Tiktoks? The Roblox and the peloton what is that share of revenue from those plays look like?


Will Page  34:08

So the best way I could do this is if I just talk about ratios, there's three R's in this business, there's share of revenue, there's ratio, and as rights pool, they mean different things. Most experts get confused with three R's. I'm gonna stick to ratios that is if I give the label $1, how much do I give the publisher, the software, there's collective management organization. So we stick to the conventional streaming model today, I would say that you get the record label $1. You're giving the publishing side of the fence 24 cents, you know, a decent chunk of change, but still the poorer cousin of the record label on YouTube, I think it could be as high as 35 cents 40 cents even because there's a sync right involved in those deals. And then when you take that observation of imposing the sink right into a deal and you expand it to peloton or tic tock potentially even more, and then you can flip it and say well what happens in the future of TiC tock Because karaoke not saying it's gonna happen, but it's not implausible if that was the case that favors publishers even more. There's all these weird ways the business could develop, which could favor one side of the fence, the labels, and the artists continue getting three-quarters of the cash. On the other side of the fence publishers and songwriters start enforcing their rights and getting a more balanced share. And that's what we need to look out for when we're investing in corporates. That's what we need to look out for. If you're a singer and a songwriter. And you're trying to understand your royalty statements.


Dan Runcie  35:27

Like how much higher Do you think I mean, if you had to put a percentage on it for the Tiktoks or the pelletize? And I guess as well, you made me think up sync deals, right? Like for the folks that are selling, or their saw gets placed on one of these Hulu series or one of these HBO Max series? Like what is that ratio look like, you know, from a ballpark for those?


Will Page  35:50

So I think a 50-50 split would be the upper end of the goal. If a song is placed in a Hulu TV show or you know, an artist I've worked with for many years Eumir Deodato, Brazilian composer, his songs now in this famous EasyJet commercial over here in Europe, the artists and the publisher would see around a 5050 split of those revenues. Now would that happen in a world of streaming? Unlikely, but I think if you can get to a stage where you're giving the record label $1 and the publisher 50 cents as a ratio, and I got to repeat the word ratio here, you know, that's potentially achievable, that listen, post-Spotify economy, I don't think it's going to happen with the business we're looking at today. But I think that's a potential scenario for the business developing tomorrow. That's the thing is, if I can quote Ralph Simon are a longtime mentor to me, he always says, this industry is always about what's happening next. And then he goes on to say, it always has been as a great reminder of just your will restless souls in this business, we've achieved this amazing thing in the past 10 years, we're streaming got that bank there. What's coming next, who would have thought peloton would have had a music licensing department 18 months ago now they're like a top 10 account for major labels.


Dan Runcie  36:59

It's impressive. It really is. And I think it's a good reminder. Because anytime that you get a little bit too bullish and excited about what the current thing is, we always got to be thinking about what's next. And you mentioned a few times about a post-Spotify economy. And what does that look like? From your perspective, I think there's likely a number of things that we've already talked about with more of these other b2b platforms or with these other platforms, in general, having licensing deals, but what do you say? Or what do you think about post-Spotify economy? What comes to mind for you?


Will Page  37:32

Let me throw my fist your words, your joy, and try and knock you out for a second. We talked about price for a minute. And we talked about streaming. We haven't talked about gaming, but you noticed that Epic Games just acquired Bandcamp, I learned a fascinating stat about Bandcamp, which relates to my book tours and economics. There's a chapter in the book called Mako by, where I sat down with the management of the band Radiohead, we went through the entire in rainbow story for the first time ever a real global exclusive to explain how that deal worked out what they were really achieving when they did their voluntary Tip Jar model. And by the way, can I just put a shout out to one of your listeners, and fly from the Ben-Zion I bet remix of Radiohead have ever heard in my life is live. We're fishies Hip Hop version of the entire album. But Radiohead tested voluntary Tip Jar pricing. Now check this out. If you put your album out on Bandcamp could be a vinyl record. Remember, it's the people who are paying to stream who are also buying vinyl. So if you put a band and album out on Bandcamp, and you say a name, your own price, no minimum, and there's a guidance of 10 bucks, the average paid is 14 People go about 40% asking, and that could be for a super-rich blockbuster artists who try something out on Bandcamp there could be for some band who's broken Brooklyn Robin and cons together trying to make them breed people go 40% above asking when you say name your own price. And that's interesting for me, and there's a great academic paper by Francesca Cornelli from Duke University, she asked how should you price a museum and intuition says top-down mindset, the museum should set the price adults 10 bucks kids, five bucks pensioners, some type of discount arrangement, but she said no, let the visitors set the price because that way rich people will give you even more and poorer people can attend. And you'll see more cash overall. And I would like to see a little bit more of that experimentation around pricing compared to the past 20 years where we've had a ceiling on price where if you really love a band, all you can give a platform is 999 and not a penny more. I think that's we're suffocating love. We're putting a ceiling on love. We need to take that ceiling smash through it and let people express love through different means. But I love that Bandcamp story whatever you suggest I'll give you 40% above because it's our we're not dealing with commodity we're dealing with culture and that's what we got to remind ourselves.


Dan Runcie  39:43

It's like the Met model right where at least the last time I went it was like $20 was the recommendation but to your point it at least at some variable threshold, but the people a lot of the people that go there that have a lot of money end up giving much more so I hear you on that I, I noticed though, when you're talking and thinking about the future of this, I didn't hear many of the typical buzzwords and things that you hear about the music industry. Now whether it is NFTs or Web 3.0 or Metaverse, well, maybe to some extent with the Epic Games comparison, but what is your take on that piece of the puzzle, Spotify era.


Will Page  40:20

I need $1 and a glass every time I hear these words. So I'm just back from Austin, Texas, South by Southwest, a vague recollection of what happened over there. But I'm telling you, those words were bouncing around more than anything else. Here's a way of capturing of your listeners. This is the first time I've been to South by Southwest where nobody asked me what band did I see last night? Everybody asked me what VR headset that, I try this morning. And that's a sign of the times there and that is a sign of the times. Hey, did you try the Amaze VR headset? You know the make the stallion booty tour? Yeah, I tried that this morning, what Band-Aid nobody wanted to know about bands with pulses. Everybody wants to know about VR headsets. So we live in interesting times. And I think we're in a bit of bubble trouble here. I really do. I don't think this whole thing has been thought out correctly. Firstly, I'll give you an example of where I think the problems gone wrong. And secondly, I want to give you an example from history to show that we've been here before. So with NF T's, it is not. It's not an example of a woman who is happy to spend 1000s 10s of 1000s of dollars on a handbag because they can walk up and down Sixth Avenue and people will see that woman carrying that handbag, the signaling value isn't there. You know, I can buy a token that says I've seen the Mona Lisa on this day and put it in my locker. And if I show you my locker, you can see that I've seen the Mona Lisa that day, and you could buy a token and put it in your locker and you could show your friends that you've seen the Mona Lisa that day, but nobody can buy the Mona Lisa, we can just buy this NFT adaption of the Mona Lisa, but we can't share it across platforms. And that's where I'm struggling. That's where I'm struggling as irrational as that might be to spend 20 $30,000 on a handbag that makes you feel good having the world see you were fine. Do what you got to do. But with NF T's is not a cross-platform token. I'm worried that that's a problem with the model with the price of NF t's just very quickly, there is a term I want to introduce to your show called wash trades, which will meet a legal of 1936 which is basically if you're selling your house, you might employ an estate agent on the buyer side as well as the sell-side to cook up the price. And you can see if you try to do this in the stock market, you spend a lot of time and the chokey six years in jail for manipulating prices. Wash trades have been illegal since 1936. I think there's a problem with wash trades, manipulating the price of NF T's because they're unregulated. So I don't want to be the doer pessimistic, Scottish economist, in the room here pour cold water on this hype machine. But I have some issues with the product. And I have some issues with the price the product is docked to your locker and your locker only the price can be manipulated by ways which be declared illegal in financial markets. Conventional financial markets by wrapping that up. Here's my lesson from history. No Dan, in your record collection. Do you remember a rock band called kiss? Oh yeah. Were you a member of Kiss Army by any chance?


Dan Runcie  43:08

I was on the show.


Will Page  43:11

Right so if we go back to before I was born 1975, Kiss one of the biggest rock bands in America had something called Kiss Army for their super fans. So you could have kiss wallpaper because models. You could even have Kiss toilet paper. That was one of their top sellers. You could wipe your butt who key with Gene Simmons. That was one of their biggest sellers. And in 1975 They ran a competition on the competition was to say Hey fans, if you want to see a picture of the band with the makeup off there does famous black and white makeup. And we're going to have this competition you pay to enter and five lucky winners will be sent a photograph of the band for the makeup off. Now you're thinking NF TS kiss 1975 Where's he going? Follow me. Hysteria breaks out all these kiss fans in the kiss army want to see Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley with a makeup off. So crazy hyperemic competition the winners are announced the envelopes are sent out. There was five lucky winners get the envelope. They need scissors to open the envelope a pill it is black and white photograph of Kiss with makeup off. And after five seconds of exposure to natural light. The picture feeds genius, genius marketing incredible. But I'm struggling to see the difference between that and 1975 Kiss. You're competing for photographs, which feed in natural light and NFTs today so something I stress my big tours and economics is when you stare into disruption. It's really important to remind yourself that you've been here before and I think Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley have been here before.


Dan Runcie  44:37

It's an interesting take. And I do think about the first piece of what you're saying just in terms of something that stays in your wallet. And how do you share that elsewhere? I have seen some of the social platforms making it easier to be like oh hey, you could connect your Coinbase wallet to this whether it's Instagram or I think they're working on it now or to Twitter and you could make that your profile Make sure or you know the people that of course, you know will right click copy paste and save it put that as their profile pictures in different places. So I guess in their minds that's their version of being able to walk down fit that with the duty at Birkbeck, right. 


Will Page  45:15

That's interesting. That to your point, that takes you back into handbag territory that corrects for the problem. Let's see if it goes but equally does the NFT lose its exclusivity when we do that as well. So it might work in the short term and might lead to the demise of NF T's over the long term because they're not that special. After all, they're just an icon for your profile picture. So is great to hear that there's that type of thinking going on that justifies my,  justifies my view.


Dan Runcie  45:41

Who knows? I mean, we're still early right but I do think that if I see your profile on social media, you turned into a board ape, we may have to have another podcast conversation I did.


Will Page  45:55

But I tell you asked him was obsessed with these topics. Even Austin, Texas Music conferences, get obsessed with the next big thing but this year, it was just bizarre how many references I heard to web three NF Ts, but if they can just give a quick shout out to the company amaze VR who are doing the mega stallion tour I watched make the stallion four times in Austin, Texas, I saw more VR of Nicholas Deleon and I saw of any live bear. But you know, they had the longest queues of the entire conference. If you judge success by queues demand exceeding supply, they won South by Southwest for the longest queues.


Dan Runcie  46:27

That's impressive. And of course, it makes a big star she's been doing a lot. I've heard a lot of good things from base VR too. I think that though, it'd be a great point to pivot and talk a little bit more about hip hop, the as we know, hip hop has been able to see a lot of its potential even more so. In the streaming era with us, given the popularity that's there. We've seen the numbers, we've seen the growth as well. And I know that you've studied this a lot, especially on the international perspective, just seeing how hip hop is growing in other countries. But I think some of that growth is looking different than what we may be used to seeing in the US. So what is your perspective right now on the state of hip hop with regards to streaming,


Will Page  47:09

you speaking about something that's close to my heart, but if I can start by saying, one thing that your podcast has done for me over the years, that reminds us of that famous quote, which has been reiterated by many rappers, which is rap is something you do hip hop is something you live, and we can forget that from time to time can drink a bit too much Kool-Aid and forget those golden words. Rap is something that you do. Hip hop is something that you live, you don't have a choice with hip hop, you live it, rap, I mean, you could play a jazz track, then you could do a rap track, you have a choice there, but hip hop is an eighth. And I want to pull those words up. Because when we talk about the genre of hip hop, I wonder whether it's really a bit of a square peg in a round hole here to take words, which means describe a lifestyle and their attitude or mentality, and then say that it's now a genre. Maybe rap should be the genre and hip hop should be the culture. So I just want to throw that out there for your listeners. And I'd love future guests to come on and pose them that question. If we're discussing the genre of hip hop, are we missing a trick that aside, some stuff which has been popping with hip hop mean, firstly, just the size of the audience in America, just north of 90 million people, there's 90 million regular listeners of hip hop that is phenomenal. If you think about how far the genre has come, the culture has come in 30-plus years. And secondly, who's out there in front. I mean, I would put YouTube as the number one venue for hip hop in the United States, Spotify, Apple, Amazon, they're all doing their things. But I think it's worth just reminding ourselves how important YouTube is to our culture. As opposed to Amazon Spotify. Apple is depressing your thumb on a piece of glass during a track. Repeat. Rap is something you do hip hop is something you live and you've had to Mercer, one of my longtime mentors on your show, just we'll back to that past podcast to get to where I'm coming from on that point. I think the interesting thing for me speaking as a non-American on a podcast with a large American audience to watch how it's growing out of the countries and one of the most interesting things for me was non-English speaking hip hop. Now, my sister who's a French translator, Annie, she introduced me to a rapper called MC solo way, way back in the day, back in the 90s. Even and I don't speak French, but the rap was just incredible, like the way that the French language flowed over a beat. He certainly won't recall any tempo. That was incredible. So, you know, I've always had an appreciation for how hip hop travels beyond its borders, playlists. Without Borders. Hip hop is without borders. So I just wanted to introduce your audience to a very interesting backstory in Holland and the Netherlands, where Spotify the first country, we scaled him outside of Norway and Sweden was the Netherlands. We got big there really quickly 2011, 2012 era and because we got big we could put some local foot soldiers on the ground to help with curation. And for the first time ever in the company's history. We started taking Hip Hop curation seriously outside of our core markets and because we're supplying curation that was met with demand and all of a sudden, we started seeing these Dutch language hip hop artists explode in Holland, Ronnie flex being a great example. I think around 2018, we ran the data. And we learned that Drake was the number one artist in the world on Spotify. Yet in Holland, he was an eighth biggest hip-hop artist. And the seven above him were Dutch rapping in a local language of Dutch. And that was just jaw-dropping to think about globalization, culture, back to the Jungle Brothers the lesson they taught me in 1989, getting the message across without crossing over how you can have local language, hip hop travel, like no other genre there is across the world. And you're seeing that happen in Germany, France, you're seeing it happen in Asia. And so it's important to apply a global lens to hip hop and ask what is it about this culture, which is leading it to travel in a way that other cultures are not traveling is that the expression is that the belief is that the conviction that comes through hip hop, and that's that there's a book on that topic, and then you'd be a perfect person to try and write it, I can get you an agent. And I'd be out of my depth, but just so really important see to so which is why is this culture traveling, like no other culture, I can see on a music platform.


Dan Runcie  51:12

It's fascinating. It's something I've thought about a lot. I'm glad you mentioned that, because I think about a rapper, like Devine from India, or I think about some of the artists from the Middle East as well. And I think there's similar trends there where hip hop is still the most dominant thing, but they're artists that are from their regions are the ones that are the most popular. And I think it stems back to thinking about the origins of hip hop and looking at where a lot of those other countries may be. Now you look at what the public enemy had done, or even look a bit earlier, like Grandmaster Flash and have done their share of realities of the environments that they're in their storytelling in a way that isn't being done by the mass media. And we're in an era now, you know, more than ever, we see everything happening in the world where, what a lot of the heads of states, or what a lot of the governments or main distribution, communication platforms in these countries are sharing isn't necessarily reflecting what's happening in those places. So because of that, you have people wanting to speak out on that. And I think that because people realizing what the public enemy was able to do in some of those other groups here by them saying, you know, we are the black CNN, we are the voice communicating that I think you saw a lot of that in these other countries. So even if it's different artists, you're seeing them share their version of what's happening on the ground. And I think, like anything else, the evolution of that continues to grow over time. It's been, it's been really fascinating to see that. And I think that is what, at least for me always makes it feel like this is the global language that keeps everyone connected in this space. Even if people are speaking clearly different languages from artists you don't know there's that common theme that you can tell even if you're watching a music video or getting a vibe of what they're doing. There's so many through lights there.


Will Page  53:02

Those comments are deeper than Loch Ness, so they can quickly top it up with two thoughts, just thinking aloud here. This is why I love about your podcast is with the way you take the conversation with just firstly, just a historical point. And as I mentioned with my book tours and economics, when you're staring at the disruption to remind yourself that you've been here before, when I hear stories about suppression by governments leading to a rise of hip hop as a culture rap as an art form. You just got to go back to 1877 New Orleans and remind yourselves how jazz came into being your Creole people. You know, when Jim Crow laws were reintroduced through the backdoor before since the African American community overnight, so you took classically trained middle-class Creole people brought into a culture which had the blues and African drumming, and out of that suppression came the creation that was jazz. And it's just I love when you alluded to government suppression resulting in creativity. It's just interesting to think how we keep on you know, history doesn't repeat itself, it rhymes. And it's rhyming here when you start to think about the origins of jazz to what we're seeing happen with hip hop. And then the second thing I mentioned earlier that, you know, the internet can scale just about anything you want, but it can't scale intimacy. I wonder whether that's what hip hop is doing because it's, it's a postcard its storytelling is beginning with the word imagine and asking you to imagine the picture these words are creating, you know, that's doing something which I don't think your conventional verse-chorus, verse, chorus, rock or pop song is going to deliver. So the message getting the message across without coordinate crossing over. The message that we're getting across with hip hop is different from other forms of music. And that might explain a little bit about success at home and overseas that we've seen on streaming.


Dan Runcie  54:43

Definitely. Well, well, this is great. Thanks again for coming on. If you're listening, definitely make sure that you check out Tarzan economics. I can't recommend this book enough. I think that will is extremely sharp. And he's a thought leader in this space and it's been great to learn from him. So well. Thanks for coming on. And before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug in or let the travel audience know about?


Will Page  55:07

I have gotten no more travel plans to the States this year. But if they can just ask the audience to check out the mix on Mixcloud we ain't done with 2021 with a shout-out from Dan Runcie, himself, and many others, Mike G is on that mix Lord is on that mix. But I just hope that your audience because the show trapped will mean so much to me. I just hope the audience sees me as a DJ first and an economist a distant second that I can just land that point at the end of this podcast, I'd be happy.


Dan Runcie  55:33

That's a great note to end on. Well, thanks again.


Will Page  55:36

Thank you so much.


Dan Runcie  55:38

If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.



]]> 3372 no Audiomack CMO Dave Ponte’s Plan to Grow the Pie for Artists https://www.trapital.com/podcast It’s been ten years since Dave Ponte co-founded Audiomack alongside Dave Macli. The decade has been strong in international growth for the music streaming platform — Audiomack recently became Nigeria’s number-one overall iOS app in a given week — but if Ponte has it his way, Audiomack will next become THE “home base” for artists, a place to begin their entire musical journey. The platform has rolled out numerous features to support those lofty ambitions, plus has several others in the works.  One of the features that is live is the Supporters monetization tool. Launched in December, the tool allows fans to directly pay artists in exchange for a “badge” that memorializes their name in their profile and that of the supported artists. In the four months of being live on-site, Supporters has created $30,000 in new revenue for artists on Audiomack. As Dave told us in the episode, unlike competing streaming services, Audiomack is concerned with increasing the “size of the pie” for the entire music industry — not merely finding additional ways to ”slice the pie.” Dave and I spoke at length about artist monetization — and how Web 3.0 possibly fits into the equation — throughout the episode. Here’s everything else we covered:  [0:00 Big Start To 2022 For Audiomack [0:55] Evaluating Audiomack’s Supporters’ Monetization Tool Post-Launch [3:38] Updating The Supporters’ Product Over Time [6:47] $30,000 Created For Artists (So Far) With Supporters Tool  [10:25] Artist Campaigns On Audiomack [14:28] Audiomack’s Newly-Launched Creator App  [17:50] Mobile App “Stickiness”  [20:23] Audiomack’s “Home Base” Aspirations [24:05] Artist Resource Guide On Audiomack [27:52] How Brian Zisook’s Twitter Threads Influenced Artist Guide  [30:20] Different Dynamic Between Audiomack & Other Platforms [32:55] Audiomack’s Biggest Challenges  [38:42] How Does Web 3.0 Factor Into Audiomack’s Future? [46:26] Audiomack Motivated To Bring AfroBeats To America To listen to more Audiomack Trapital episodes, check out the two below: Audiomack Co-Founder & CEO Dave Macli:  https://trapital.co/2020/11/16/dave-macli-on-audiomacks-role-in-music-streaming-partnership-with-djbooth-and-global-expansion/ Audiomack VP of Product Charlie Kaplan:  https://trapital.co/2021/12/10/charlie-kaplan-on-audiomack-supporters-artist-fan-monetization-and-streaming-business-models/ Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Dave Ponte   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  ________ TRANSCRIPTION David Ponte 00:00 We cultivated all this. We aggregated all this. And now we're providing all of this for free. We're not charging anyone for it. If you go on the Audiomack app, you'll be able to access them. And you'll be able to learn and find out the answers to these questions because, frankly, I didn't even know a lot of these answers. I mean, there's so much to learn in the music industry. And you know, I know some things but there's a lot of things that I don't know. And I’ve, when going through this guide, learned a lot. And it can be one small decision that an artist would make, that can make a huge impact on their career in their life. Dan Runcie 00:39 Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's guest is Dave Ponte. The Chief Marketing Officer and co-founder of Audiomack. Audiomack is a music streaming platform and a music discovery service that reaches more than 20 million people across the world. It was great to chat with Dave because a few months back, I had talked to Charlie Kaplan fromAudiomack. This is when they first launched their platform, Supporters. Supporters is a tool that brings artists and fans more directly together where fans can directly contribute to a release of an artist give money to the artist for that, have their name be associated with that, and be able to show that badge through the Audiomack platform. We talked about the rollout of that we talked about how that fits more broadly, with Audiomack strategy to be a home base for artists and how it's doing that also through its creator app, through its artist's guide, and a few of the other things it has planned.  And that pivots us into a discussion about how Audiomack’s strategy fits within the broader music ecosystem in the broader streaming service. There are much bigger streaming services, but many of them are still copying a lot of the moves that Audiomack has done. So we talked about what that dynamic is where Audiomack is growing most right now and how this company is thinking about the future. And when you think about web3, when you think about all these other things, how much of this is an actual opportunity, how many of these things are buzzwords or just fluff, Dave and I get into all that. I had a great conversation with him. Here's my chat with Dave Ponte.  All right, today, we got Dave Ponte here from Audiomack, and I got to give him credit, the company has been having a pretty good run lately. They launched some new platforms, they've been growing internationally. Dave, we got to get the latest on how things have been going on your end? David Ponte 02:50 Things have been going great. We're really happy about how 2022 is shaping up. And we have a lot of great new features and platforms and apps and other things that are going to help artists, you know, improve their careers and move music forward. Dan Runcie 03:06 Definitely. Yeah, I think it was a couple of months back, I feel like that, we're making the rounds because I had had Dave Macli about a year ago or so, had Zeon after that, and had Charlie Kaplan on most recently. And we talked all about Supporters. And I feel like this is a pretty big launch for you all when Charlie came on, we were just talking about the launch and the goals of having something where artists and fans can connect more directly in just bridging that line together.  And now you have at least a few months of it to see how things have been going. So how has that been so far? How is Supporters? David Ponte 03:42 I'm really happy with how it's launched. The product has worked really well. There hasn't been any when you're developing software, and you're adding a new feature like this, which is a completely different way that we would approach typically how our app would work. You know, we're a streaming platform, you know, you could play songs, you could follow artists, you could do all the things that you would do in a streaming platform, but now we're adding this e-commerce functionality. So it's a new foray for us. And it's gone off really, very smoothly. All the artists' supporters have been able to buy badges, it's all the finance and reconciliation portion has worked out very well, and the artists are really happy about this additional revenue stream that they can now employ. Dan Runcie 04:24 Nice. I got to imagine for a lot of the artists, it brings them closer because that's one of the reasons that they're likely building on Audiomack as opposed to elsewhere. I feel like one of the pitches that you all have had from the beginning is that – A. you're going to have artists that are much more in control of what they're doing from how they're building their brand on your platform.  And then I think, in addition, you're not necessarily always working with the artists who are more bound by a major record label or another entity. So by being able to have what I imagined a lot of independent artists using this tool and bring it up to you whether that is the through-line there, and of course, we're seeing so much happening with platforms in all different types of technologies trying to bring folks together, but I think you are able to do it in a way that is seamless, and it's visible because I think at the end of the day, people do want to be able to show off their fandom, and who they support. David Ponte 05:19 Yes, one thing that, you know, I talked to Charlie, you know, who was one of the main architects of this feature, and he was a guest on your podcast, I recommend everyone had to listen to him if you listen to this now. But he told me I was very, he's a very eloquent guy. And what he told me and I thought it was a good way to look about it is, this is the first hour of the new year with this supporters product, there's so many different things that we want to add, and that we're in the midst of adding when I wanted to share a couple of those on your podcast. And, and, you know, we always had this challenge, Dave Mackley and I write what your things are never going to be perfect. When you release a new product, a new part of our product, a new app, you're never going to release it. So you have to just eventually push it out, let the people experience it, consider their feedback, and then work that into future iterations. So that's what we're doing here. There's a lot of new things we want to add. And we want to revise. And, you know, I'm not just gonna sit here and tell you everything's perfect, right? That would be boring, number one. But number two, it's not reality, especially with when you're dealing with app development.  So one of the things we realized was the price of the supporters' badge, overall, I think was too high. So about a month into the program, we actually reduced the prices, the cost of the badge. So now, you know, you could buy a badge for $1 instead of $2 US and obviously changes depending on where you are, I don't think we're a global app, we're really big in Africa, particularly West Africa, and Nigeria have gone up. And once we lowered the price for the lowest cost badge from two to $1, we saw a lot more people buying badges and supporting those artists, we actually ended up creating more revenue for the artist with this small but impactful change. And we don't want, you know, the whole concept Audiomack has to have a low barrier to entry, whether an artist or whether you're a fan, you know, Audiomack is a free app, you could download, begin, take music offline for free, no matter where you are in the world. And if you're an artist, you could have unlimited space to upload your music, you have unlimited opportunities to look at the data, glean insights from how people are consuming your art. And now they can support you directly by buying a badge, a Supports badge. So that was one small but big, really big change, impactful change that we saw, and we made about four weeks into the launch of the product. Dan Runcie 07:41 So I think that's a key point. Because I think a lot of people from the outside may look at the price sensitivity of $2 to $1 and may not think it's much but that's what we're seeing in you know, the Western world and being able to think about that relative to the price of a streaming service increasing or anything like that. But you're obviously global, and you're growing in places where that difference makes a lot more or that difference is much more meaningful. So do you have any stats or any, how that difference is from a quantitative perspective of how much of an increase or usage rate you saw from lowering the price from two to one? David Ponte 08:17 Well, I don't know if I have that stat, particularly I wish I did. But we have more badges sold. I think once I did have my team collect was just the amount of money that we've made for artists since launch and that's 30,000 over $30,000. And that's a good point. We had that mindset. Obviously, we're a New York company, we're Americans. And we know it's hard for us to think about how what it might be like for someone in Nigeria or someone in Tanzania, for example. But we eventually figured it out. We got feedback from a lot of our ambassadors on our team out there. And I think the way probably to think about it is the streaming rate, right? So you know, you make a certain amount per stream on Spotify, title, Apple Music, SoundCloud, Youtube, Audiomack. And we're an ad-supported platform, right? So the majority of people who consume music on Audiomack do it for free. As I mentioned, we make money on ads, though the revenue from those ads pays the artists. So what we thought of is how can we increase the size of the pie? As opposed to how can we create more and more slices of that pie to split around, right? So if you look at some of the other streaming platforms, you know, powered royalties or this or that they're not making more money, they're just sending the money to different places, right? There's not more money in the pot. Let's send it around to more people that you listen to and that's not a bad idea. Inherently, I don't mind that at all. And that's good. But what we're trying to do is increase the pie. So when you buy a supporters badge, that pie is increased for that particular artist. And if you are making you know, $150 on 100,000 streams or you're making and maybe on Spotify $400 for 100,000 streams, again, depends on where you are and where you're listening. But if you get a certain amount of supporters, you know, we have a couple of artists that have 100 supporters on one song, now you're making even more than you are on Spotify. For that one song, everything is sort of comes into this effective stream rate, which actually is an advertising term that we flipped a little bit effective CPM or effective stream rate is sort of the amalgamation of all the different revenue that you're bringing in, that you could then turn to give to that artist. Dan Runcie 10:32 That makes sense. Because if you're thinking about supporters, and you're thinking about just how many artists, you know, total that $30,000 or plus worth of revenue, then you're likely, as you mentioned, you're probably going to have a few at the top, it sounds like there's a few that have 100 or more supporters, but I see. But it does seem like something where you know, as it grows, and it continues, that'll be good. But at least in my perception, you get some if I'm wrong, it seems like it's most likely going to be you know, a few artists that end up doing the doing really well with it. But then their success in a lot of ways not only paves the way for others, but if they become case studies, they could be like, Oh, look how much money so and so made for being able to support us that influences others who either are already on Audiomack, to push their supporters more heavily or encourage us folks that may be on a different platform to come in short years and do the same. David Ponte 11:27 That's a really good point. That's what my job and the marketing team's job has been to work with artists to create campaigns for those artists a way to get their fans engaged, but also to prove and provide a template for artists that might follow those artists that we're working with, to then do their own campaigns. And we've seen some of that, I'd like to see more, you know, when we built some additional functionality, and some changes, I think we will see more. But I wanted to give you some examples of some of the cool campaigns that we've seen artists do. So one is this is a Latin pop artist, her name is Noemi, and she had a really cool idea she came to us, we've helped her sort of put it together, essentially, one of her friends makes custom sneakers. So they made three different customs types of sneakers that like know, the sort of look and of the sneakers are obviously correlated to what her album and our theme of her album was that you support. And then when you support it, you know you have a chance to win these custom sneakers that she's going to sign that the artist is going to sign and send that. So she had a good amount of supporters, but not too many to where if you bought a badge, you would have no shot, right? I think she had close to 30 supporters for this. And one of those supporters will get this custom pair of like Air Force ones that are really, really dope. That was really cool example of how one artist, you know, created something with their fans and made some money in the process. But really, it was really to get more attention about her song. We had another artist, a huge dancehall artist, Alkaline, one of the biggest artists out of Jamaica, he's really big in Florida, there's a very large Jamaican diaspora in South Florida. And like the Fort Lauderdale area, I think there's more Jamaicans Jamaican-Americans there than anywhere in the US. So we got a concert, they're very highly sought-after events that happened actually just this past week. And if you were, he picked five supporters to come to the show on his behalf. So you, if you supported him in his song, you'd have a chance to win tickets to the show. So I thought that was really really interesting. He has such he was already getting he had more supporters than anyone who really didn't like do a campaign. He's just a mass of artists and Audiomack is really big in Jamaica and in the Caribbean. So his fans are really excited about that. I think a couple actually flew to Florida for the show. And they got a bunch of merch Audiomack merch, they got Alkaline merch, and they're really, really happy about that. So those are a couple of examples that I was really excited about, just like how we could bridge the gap from online to real-life, like a real-life experience. Dan Runcie 14:01 Yeah, the Alkaline story hits home for me, I've actually been getting better again, I have family in the Fort Lauderdale area. So that speaks volumes there. And I feel like I'm thinking about the other places of the country that have pretty big shake-up populations, of course, New York, but also our for the county, which is where I'm from you got a good amount there. So I feel like alkaline has some Audiomack real estate there as well. But I think you know, zooming out of it and talking to you and you know, most of your colleagues as well at Audiomack. I do see the broader strategy around getting creators on board, how do we best support them? And how do we empower them to maximize what they can do and use our platform to make that happen? I know you all recently launched the Creator app as well, which I think is also along these lines. So can you talk a little bit about that and what you thought the market needed that made you want to launch this? David Ponte 14:55 The Creator app, again, Charlie Kaplan, he was the architect of this and there was really a gap in the market, right? Like, if you look at our competitors, it's just not something that they focus on, right? Like the, you know, for our competitors, the majority of the music that they get are from distributors. So there's no touchpoint between the platform and the artist. And again, that's what our goal is to draw the shortest line between the artists and the fan. So more intermediaries expand that line, as opposed to shortening it. The Creator app is a tool that allows artists to through an app environment and not a website environment, what you could do on our Creator dashboard on the web, but the app allows you to engage with fans through comments. It allows you to see your stats, see where people are playing your music, what geographic area, see, you know, the graphs in terms of how many streams and how many playlists, ads, and favorite favorites are getting. And we're adding monetization to this as well. In fact, it's almost done by the time people statistics should be, the monetization functionality should be available in the Audiomack creator app. And what this will do is allow you to withdraw money from your audio Max stream earnings and your supportive edge sales directly. So this was a really, really important feature because, you know, if you think about if you have crypto, right, if you have the Coinbase app or one of these other apps, you probably look at seeing how much money or you're losing or gaining on a given minute, right? With crypto, you open your banking apps all the time you open your stock apps, if you have investments, when there's money involved, people are gonna want to check it all the time, obviously, it's their livelihood. So we're gonna give the artists the ability to withdraw directly from the Creator app and put that money in their pocket. And hopefully, they'll use that to expand their artistry, develop their career, and invest in tools that help them, you know, create more art for all of us. So the critter app is actually grown more than I thought we've already beat our goals. You know, we had goals for the marketing team to exceed a certain amount. And we've already exceeded them way early. So there's a high demand for it. And I think our competitors don't really take that part of the artist's lifecycle seriously. And I think it's really important. So we were happy to swoop in and provide that value for our artists. Dan Runcie 17:08 And I think for the folks listening, to a lot of people, no, of course, you have the web interface, but a lot of the companies do go through this transition where okay, we clearly have it's available on the web. But let's build the app. And there's a number of reasons why I think it just leads to more stickiness, more usage. But are there any other advantages that you all had in terms of, okay, this app, whether it's the potential to have a moat around this, or the potential to have something stronger, because, of course, as you mentioned, a lot of it was available through the web before. But I do think that you know, an app just allows you to have likely a few more lasting touchpoints, and being able to add a bit more direct value David Ponte 17:47 100%. The whole concept of having an app is how can you make it more sticky, right? You know, all the social media apps are designed to essentially monopolize your attention, right? And for better or worse, that's how the app world is and how the world is. So how can we make it more sticky? What are the things that artists really want to glean from an app like a creator app, you know, some things that make them you know, make better decisions, or provide insights that allow them to pivot, if things aren't working or put more resources into something is really working, they need the information to do that. And it needs to be an ease-to-access that information, you know, to access our Creator dashboard, you know, on the web, it's not the smoothest situation, it's made for a desktop website. So an app allows you to just see it, click on it, and then instantly access, it is much quicker. And we had a similar, it was a similar process back in 2015 when Audiomack was just a website. And we started to see all the web traffic going down, and all the mobile web traffic going up. And that was probably similar for a lot of companies at that time period, and then once we created the apps at the beginning of that year, the game changed for us, and it's just something about an app that people love, and it's probably because it's made to monopolize their thoughts, unfortunately. Dan Runcie 19:07 Yeah, definitely. And with this, you talked to a fair amount as well about your competitors. And of course, you're in the unique place where to call it DSP or digital streaming provider, maybe a bit too blanket because I think each of them are so different in what they offer. But I do think that you all have such a unique place where for a lot of it, maybe the competition at this point is if there is a home that an artist more likely to independent artists is trying to build and grow their career, it's whether or not that home is with you or with another else even if they may still some of them especially as they grow, they may still want to have the awareness wherever their listeners may be, so they may still put some stuff elsewhere but it's about Okay, where's that home base? Because I think no different than a company now. There's all these platforms where you could put your attention and everything but most people are poor. I'll be picking one or two to focus on and put everything behind. So I assume it's probably that way for artists, but it'd be good to hear from your perspective how that lens is, with competitors. Knowing that, you know, I'm sure you probably want to have that home base. But there are other artists that may, you know, have their feet in a few different waters. David Ponte 20:20 That's exactly right. Home Base, I mean, I believe Dave probably has used that exact language verbatim, to describe what our goal is, you know, we want an artist to again, open up that Audiomack app and see if everything is going and then go from there. I always tell artists, when we speak to them, I'm not asking them to do everything, and only on Audiomack, right, Audiomack is a piece of their puzzle, they're going to have to put out visuals, they're going to have to use other platforms to gain fans. And that's fine. But we want them to really start their day and start their journey with Audiomack. So we have a couple of tools that are coming out very soon, that should reinforce that brand vision of becoming the home base for an artist at first place that they start the first song they upload the first 10,000 plays that they get. And it's incredibly important, it's incredibly competitive because we're, you know, really a David and Goliath scenario here, it's not a coincidence at all, our name is Dave here. So, you know, we're dealing with companies that are in the billions and billions of dollars of revenue. And, you know, we have to use that to our advantage, you know, similar to that old story from the Bible, or, you know, you have to be nimble, you have to outsmart them, you have to out-innovate them. And sometimes that works to your advantage if you want to add a product. And you know, Dave, and I and the team are behind it, we'll do it quick. You can't do that at a big company with all the bureaucracy, and that's owned by shareholders. So we try to innovate, you know, and be ahead of the wave as opposed to following the way and that's precisely it was creating that home base being the first place that artists journey so that one, they remember you in their laurels, you and we've seen that with a lot of artists, you know, that we've helped launch that are big now. And they come and they still, you know, fuck with us, for lack of a better phrase, pardon my French, but they come back and they still come to our studio, they're still meet with us, still create content with us and still promote Audiomack links. Dan Runcie 22:18 Yeah, and I think you alluded to this artist's guy that you have coming up because I think a lot of it's that right? What is that playbook that you want to be able to give artists that they can see, and I'm sure it's involving Audiomack, but you're probably addressing the broader music ecosystem and chess promotion as well. Is there anything more about that rollout? And what that will look like for artists to share? Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. David Ponte 22:45 Yeah, so the artist's guide is going to be a free educational resource and glossary for artists, musicians, primarily, that are just starting or have recently started their career in their development as an artist. So the way that we approached it is if we're an artist, what would I search into Google, right? Meaning when do I need a manager? Or what is publishing? Or, you know, when do I get a lawyer? Or when should I get a record deal? Or what distributor should I choose? Anything that you might like, type into Google is kind of how we thought of it is something that we wanted to provide that answer for. And we had our very talented writer and editor, senior head of their, Donna Jasmine, best-selling author, Donna, who had interviewed dozens and dozens of industry experts from companies ranging from you know, Sony, to Universal to BMI to just all the big companies that do provide services for artists, and ask them the answer to those questions that you might type into Google. So we cultivated all this, we aggregated all this. And now we're providing all this for free, we're not charging anyone for it. If you go on the Audiomack app, you'll be able to access them. And you'll be able to learn and find out the answers to these questions. Because, frankly, I didn't even know a lot of these answers. I mean, there's so much to learn in the music industry. And you know, I know some things but there's a lot of things that I don't know, and I wouldn't be going through this guide learned a lot. And it can be one small decision that an artist would make that can make a huge impact on their career in their life. Right? If maybe they just hesitated before they signed that deal they might have not been locked in. Or maybe if they just chose that distributor that you know, provided them an entryway into all these different playlists or, you know, whatever. They would have been better off saying we're very excited to drop this should drop it into some point on April 22. And I really think people are going to be excited about this. We'll also have a video component which we're calling artists one on one. It's really really cool. So basically, it's, you know, a narration of these answers, and we have a whole animated series devoted to that similar to Schoolhouse Rock. If you remember We're from back in the day. So it's like Schoolhouse Rock vibes, but with artists' education, so we realized that a lot of artists, you know, aren't going to read long paragraphs about stuff, just Realistically speaking, or just people, in general, see a long paragraphs, and we're not going to read it. So we created this audio and visual way to consume that, as a lot of artists probably will learn better that way. So they'll be able to figure out some of the answers to these questions that they've been interested in learning about. Dan Runcie 25:27 Does the artist’s guide include following Z from Audiomack on Twitter to make sure you stay up on the latest? David Ponte 25:34 So I will tell you the truth in his tweet threads are one of the inspirations for this, I'm not even capping at all this sort of predicated our decision to do this, because his threads get so much engagement. And people are genuinely interested in learning about this stuff. Sometimes people are afraid to ask, they don't want to be known as a beginner artist, right? Artists, especially in rap and hip hop, you know, you start off as successful write your first song, you're already talking about how you're really successful, you might be hesitant to maybe admit to yourself that you need to learn about these things if you're going to be successful in the long term. So hopefully, we could provide this to any type of artist who, you know, even shows the slightest interest in gaining this knowledge.  Dan Runcie 26:20 Yeah, I agree. And I said that in there because I think it's 100%. We just know how especially Twitter is as a platform, there is always going to be some crazy take that rises to the top, and having someone like Zia there to be like, “Hey, I'm going to call the bullshit, how would I see it, and this is how it is.” It always gets engagement or the organic tweets that he has, and I remember telling that to him last time I saw him like, I mean, he knows it, but I'm like, you know, you're doing good work. And that's why these things are valuable. There's so much that isn't necessarily there out in the open even as much information that there is now and sometimes sure you can listen to some of these clubhouse rooms, where you're not always going to get the most helpful information out there, you may get passionate voices that sound like they know what they're talking about. But that isn't always the case. So I think that having something like this, that's easy to access, because at the end of the day, you know, whether it's on Twitter, or whatever, so there's only so much reach that we have. But knowing that your platform with audiomack is the biggest reach that you all have as a company being able to bring that altogether doesn't make sense. And I mean, I think for you all, this is how you kind of have that David versus Goliath piece because the other companies don't necessarily put the same things out to the same extent they have their own version of it. Like, I know that one of the major DSPs put out a report a couple of weeks ago about some of their stats, and we always see those things. But I think that it's a little bit tougher for the companies that aren't as forward about supporting independent artists are really trying to be that advocate when their role is much more to serve and be their, you know, their main customers than major record labels versus your main customer is the artist. So it's a very different dynamic. David Ponte 28:03 That's a very nice way to put it, you can probably frame it in a way that sounds much more nefarious and evil. But listen, if another company is helping artists succeed, we are not going to be, have any problem with that. That's ultimately what we want. That's why we're agnostic. You know, if an artist has success and one of our competitors, I will never say don't do them, or our competitors might say that about us, right. But ultimately, we want them to become successful. Because, you know, for example, like the artist I was talking about what lotto she just came out with are really good. Um, she performed at one of our shows, you know, a couple of years before the pandemic. And you know, we had her come by our studio, we created content with her when really, she was not very well known outside of Atlanta. And now she's an amazing, like, a huge star was a huge hit album. And she came back and she did one of our fine-tunes, which is one of our video content series. And she came back and she did that for us, her, and her fans. And if we didn't have that we didn't establish that trust with her and her team, you know, multiple years ago, then she would have just not came by when she was in New York. So, you know, I think when you put out a good energy, it comes back to you, we really believe in that. So the other companies that might have an interest in not having artists be educated, unfortunately, there probably would not want that, because then they might not get the best type of deal when they're working with those artists. And unfortunately, that's how the music industry is. And we're hoping to change that as much as we can. Dan Runcie 29:34 Are there ever any challenges that you do? Face, just given the position that you're in? Of course, I mean, on one hand, I do look at what you're doing very different than some of the major streaming or some of the much larger streaming services, but they in many ways are still offering a service and you know, at a much larger scale, but how does that impact your strategy or your goals for what you're doing? Are there any regular challenges that their presence creates, or that you know, you all have, as you know, your role in the, as a streaming platform? David Ponte 30:09 We do have many challenges, it's tough, part of the challenges stem from just growing, you know, just as any business grows, you know, more employees, you know, more money, more problems, kind of thing. I think we want to expand even more globally, one of our focuses, right, so as the CMO, you know, me and the other executives figure out are what, what are we focused on, we have to kind of think of things in that way, where it's like, alright, let's focus on what we're going to do for the first half of 22. One of them is how are we going to bring African music to the rest of the world, and particularly to the diaspora in the US, right? So we're really big in Africa, where we help sort of paved the way for a lot of Afro beats music to be popular in the UK and in the US. So we think we want to expand this music elsewhere to other places where people might want, you know, whether you're a part of the diaspora, or whether you're just someone who might like the Afrobeat vibe, which is most people, you know, in Europe, you know, Belgium, Germany, you know, we're looking to get into Punjabi music, and they have a large diaspora in the US, Canada, UK. So the challenge is having to do all these deals with all these labels, and get them to allow us to get licenses around the world, and especially in Africa, where we have such a large user base, and we have a lot of leverage because we are very big there. So, you know, we want to get the best deals we can. And it's a tough deal. Doing licensing deals with labels is very, very tough. It takes our team a lot of time, it doesn't move quickly. As I mentioned earlier, we're used to moving quick and being nimble. And then when we work with large companies, it takes a while. So that's a challenge for me being the curator, and the marketer is trying to figure out, you know, how can I get these artists to get more fans getting more fans means I need their music to be available in more regions. So that's certainly a challenge. I think another challenge is just how can we maintain our differentiation? What are our competitive advantages? You know, a lot of times, you know, we're working with to combat these other companies, they have such large budgets and resources. And, you know, we have to fight the urge to try and follow them instead, to create our own path or own blue ocean, which was a book that came out years ago I read that made a big impact on is how can I, you know, create our own blue ocean. And, as opposed to following and trying to catch up, let's have them chase us instead. And we've had some success doing that a lot of the big streaming services have copied us, and a lot of the things that we've done, which is flattering, but annoying, too. So how can we maintain our value proposition, but really fortify it, as opposed to saying, We got to do more things like they're doing because they have so many users, so it must work. Let's do what they're doing. So that's a challenge is to try and say, All right, let's How can we accomplish it a different way? How can we keep this person engaged in the app in a different way? So part of that is things like artist’s guides, orders, and Audiomack World in general, which is sort of a, which is where the artists guide is going to be part of the Audiomack World, which is essentially a blog interview site. That's any streaming service, right? streaming services, utility, you have songs in there, you go to the live streaming service, the same songs are in there. There's not much difference between Spotify and Apple Music, you know, besides some UI, maybe podcasts. But you know, Audiomack World is an entire site that you could read and learn and discover artists without just relying on a playlist algorithm to put it in front of you at the right time. We have this other way, really the old way, because we come out of the blog era. No, we're born out of the blog era. So that was how you discovered music at the end of the arts in the beginning part of the 10s. And we tried to take what was special about that, where you learned to read about artists, and you learned about them through interviews and stuff like that on blogs, and we're taking that and we put that in the utility of the streaming service. So we're trying to just build that out and really showcase our the artists that use us in a different way than other streaming services. Dan Runcie 34:15 Right, and that point to about them copying you, that's, you know, not surprising at all because I think to your point, you're doing unique things, you're able to move a bit more nimbly, and I'm sure you likely also get acquisition offers, especially in this climate that we're in now. And if you're just like thinking about, you know, where things are, I think even things in terms of the future, whether it's, you know, web three or the metaverse, there's opportunities that you all like we have to be able to make moves in those areas if that's something that's on your roadmap, a bit easier than some of the others because they are larger companies, and it's just tougher for them to pivot in that type of way. David Ponte 34:55 Yeah, Web 3.0 is interesting. Everyone likes to talk about web three. It's changing the Internet as we know it, slowly, but surely, a lot of it is hype. You know, there's some music streaming services that are Web 3.0 and some up cool ideas, and I like them. And then other ones are probably scams that people are gonna lose a lot of money on, I think one of them, 80% of the tokens are owned by one person. So it's, whatever you see something like that, you have to question, you know, the actual motives of that one person there. No, and they've already done a lot of shady things that I will get into. But other Web 3.0 music companies are doing cool things, and we look at that we go, we might be able to do something like that. Again, if it adds value to artists, it could put money in artists' pockets, and it's like legitimately and the value exchange between the fan and the artist is equal, then you're damn right, we're gonna look into doing that. There's some awesome, exciting things we're looking at, in terms of, again, this concept of supporters, how can we create a real-life experience from something that was born out of the app, if you buy a badge, a supporters badge, maybe that's an NFT, maybe that NFT gets you access into a shop, or it gets you access into, you know, sell merch, or something like that? You know, can you accomplish those things without having to, you know, waste a lot of electricity, maybe, but maybe there's a way to do it cheap. It could be on the blockchain, you know, you could validate the token that someone has or the NFT that they have, and then provide, you know, that gets some access into something or, you know, helps create a community around. I think a lot of the appeal of web three is that it's a community in a discord. Right? All the big ones are in a Discord. You know, people want to be part of a group of like-minded individuals. So it's maybe not because of the blockchain, but because you're in a community, right? So we're trying to think about, how can we accomplish things with does web three, make it more efficient, cheaper, easier, more lucrative than we would employ that, but we're not going to do it just for the press, which some companies are are doing and watch. Dan Runcie 37:05 Something that I thought about, I remember thinking about this back when I had the conversation with Charlie, and he was first explaining the idea behind supporters is this is a concept that other platforms outside of music have done on the blockchain, but you aren't really shown that, okay, you could still have these dynamics off of it. And I'm not going to get into the whole discussion of if you could do something on versus off-chain, that and you still do it on-chain. But I do think that it highlights that a, if you're going to do something in this space, it should really be either an additive in a way that you're leveraging something that you didn't have like I think there's a very easy connection of thinking of what could a token look like for a supporter of a particular artist like Iran? Like I think there's plenty of things there. But does that enable you to do something that you couldn't currently already do through the current audio Max supporters? Or does allow you to do it better or more efficiently or something to build to the future? I think, I mean, I could imagine that that's the thought process, as opposed to just kind of, oh, let's do a web three thing. And then let's do that. But I've seen it, you know, different pitch decks and all these things. And it's like, I don't know if that's quite the way to do it, but I feel like, for you all, there's a clear through-line there. David Ponte 38:22 Yeah, there is. And that was well said, I concur with what you just said, you know, there's, do it to add value. Don't do it for the like dog and pony show part of it, where it's like, we're on-trend. We're doing all this Web 3.0. Now we're worth more, you know, one of the things you know, our supporter's badge, you know what I like it if like if you bought a supporters badge, it was actually an NFT. And we minted it for you. And then you could keep that, or you could sell that or trade that. That would be great. I mean, there's obviously a ton of work involved with that. One of the things that I think a lot of companies are wrestling with is that you know, Web 3.0 is inherently decentralized, right? Businesses are not decentralized, they are centralized. And you want to keep it centralized because that's how you control things. And that's ultimately how you're going to make money. But if you put it on the blockchain, and it's decentralized, you don't control it anymore. And that can be a bad thing, can be a good thing, but could be a bad thing, too. And there's risk involved with that. And obviously, companies are about mitigating risk. So I do think there's a couple of things we're looking at that could be really interested in adding a lot of value to artists, you know, being able to scan and an NFT to get into a community. Right? If you buy a supporter's badge, you are now eligible to be messaged by that artist. So like Wiz Khalifa did, he did, did a supporters campaign, people supported him, and he gave them you know, I forgot the amount I think 25% or 20% off of March. So he sent them a message. Thanks for being a supporter. You know, I'm really grateful and you know, by I just came out with a new capsule and you get 20% off so stuff like that, you know, can you then take your NFT or somehow prove that you have that as opposed to putting in a code? You show them that or scan that or do something? There's a lot of potential for sure. Dan Runcie 40:11 Yeah, I think so if we're just thinking about separating the noise from the opportunity, I think there's still a lot of room to grow with that for sure. But I think we'll get there. I mean, like I've used as an analogy before, I think we're very much still in this, like pets.com era of things. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But that means that there is some grift, there's some good, and I still think we're kind of in this period, where the real champions of this era are still, you know, may still yet to emerge. Some of them may have already started. But we'll see. It's an exciting time for sure. But we get to the tail end. And before we let you go, I know you shared a few things that you already have in store and a few things that you have coming up. But is there anything else coming up soon for Audiomack that you want to plug in or let the tribal audience know about? David Ponte 40:59 I mentioned how we're going to, one of our goals is in focuses, is to bring Afro beats to America. And we've done this to some degree, we want to keep doing it. You know, all of us here are just such big fans of that type of music and that wave, you know, whether it be Burna Boy, David, Joeboy, Fireboy, Tiwa Savage, Yemi Alade, there's just so many great artists and also from South Africa, we're really big fans of Amapiano and sort of the South African dance music scene. So we want to bring that type of dance music to the US and be at the forefront of that. So there could be a tour coming up with a few artists that are going to be coming maybe to a city near you. Or maybe if you buy a supporter’s badge for these artists, you'll get certain types of access, maybe you get to meet the artist. So we're trying to take what was cool about supporters and about Audionmack and the app, and then turn that into real-life things in the real experiences that are turned into just unforgettable memories for that fan. And great revenue opportunities for that artist. So stay tuned. Dan Runcie 42:04 That's awesome. Good stuff. I'm excited for you guys. This will be good. We'll definitely keep in touch with you and stay in lock with what Audiomack is doing. But Dave, thanks for coming on. It's been a pleasure. David Ponte 42:14 Thanks for having me, Dan, and it's, I love what you're doing. I'm the one who puts the podcast on our trending section on audiomack and helps you get more fans like that. So please keep uploading, keep helping people, learn about the music business and the music industry, and I'm thrilled to be on and can't wait to see how my voice sounds when I listen to it later. Dan Runcie 42:37 No, I appreciate that. No. Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 08 Apr 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Audiomack CMO Dave Ponte’s Plan to Grow the Pie for Artists full Dan Runcie It’s been ten years since Dave Ponte co-founded Audiomack alongside Dave Macli. The decade has been strong in international growth for the music streaming platform — Audiomack recently became Nigeria’s number-one overall iOS app in a given week — but if Ponte has it his way, Audiomack will next become THE “home base” for artists, a place to begin their entire musical journey. The platform has rolled out numerous features to support those lofty ambitions, plus has several others in the works.  One of the features that is live is the Supporters monetization tool. Launched in December, the tool allows fans to directly pay artists in exchange for a “badge” that memorializes their name in their profile and that of the supported artists. In the four months of being live on-site, Supporters has created $30,000 in new revenue for artists on Audiomack. As Dave told us in the episode, unlike competing streaming services, Audiomack is concerned with increasing the “size of the pie” for the entire music industry — not merely finding additional ways to ”slice the pie.” Dave and I spoke at length about artist monetization — and how Web 3.0 possibly fits into the equation — throughout the episode. Here’s everything else we covered:  [0:00 Big Start To 2022 For Audiomack [0:55] Evaluating Audiomack’s Supporters’ Monetization Tool Post-Launch [3:38] Updating The Supporters’ Product Over Time [6:47] $30,000 Created For Artists (So Far) With Supporters Tool  [10:25] Artist Campaigns On Audiomack [14:28] Audiomack’s Newly-Launched Creator App  [17:50] Mobile App “Stickiness”  [20:23] Audiomack’s “Home Base” Aspirations [24:05] Artist Resource Guide On Audiomack [27:52] How Brian Zisook’s Twitter Threads Influenced Artist Guide  [30:20] Different Dynamic Between Audiomack & Other Platforms [32:55] Audiomack’s Biggest Challenges  [38:42] How Does Web 3.0 Factor Into Audiomack’s Future? [46:26] Audiomack Motivated To Bring AfroBeats To America To listen to more Audiomack Trapital episodes, check out the two below: Audiomack Co-Founder & CEO Dave Macli:  https://trapital.co/2020/11/16/dave-macli-on-audiomacks-role-in-music-streaming-partnership-with-djbooth-and-global-expansion/ Audiomack VP of Product Charlie Kaplan:  https://trapital.co/2021/12/10/charlie-kaplan-on-audiomack-supporters-artist-fan-monetization-and-streaming-business-models/ Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Dave Ponte   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  ________ TRANSCRIPTION David Ponte 00:00 We cultivated all this. We aggregated all this. And now we're providing all of this for free. We're not charging anyone for it. If you go on the Audiomack app, you'll be able to access them. And you'll be able to learn and find out the answers to these questions because, frankly, I didn't even know a lot of these answers. I mean, there's so much to learn in the music industry. And you know, I know some things but there's a lot of things that I don't know. And I’ve, when going through this guide, learned a lot. And it can be one small decision that an artist would make, that can make a huge impact on their career in their life. Dan Runcie 00:39 Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's guest is Dave Ponte. The Chief Marketing Officer and co-founder of Audiomack. Audiomack is a music streaming platform and a music discovery service that reaches more than 20 million people across the world. It was great to chat with Dave because a few months back, I had talked to Charlie Kaplan fromAudiomack. This is when they first launched their platform, Supporters. Supporters is a tool that brings artists and fans more directly together where fans can directly contribute to a release of an artist give money to the artist for that, have their name be associated with that, and be able to show that badge through the Audiomack platform. We talked about the rollout of that we talked about how that fits more broadly, with Audiomack strategy to be a home base for artists and how it's doing that also through its creator app, through its artist's guide, and a few of the other things it has planned.  And that pivots us into a discussion about how Audiomack’s strategy fits within the broader music ecosystem in the broader streaming service. There are much bigger streaming services, but many of them are still copying a lot of the moves that Audiomack has done. So we talked about what that dynamic is where Audiomack is growing most right now and how this company is thinking about the future. And when you think about web3, when you think about all these other things, how much of this is an actual opportunity, how many of these things are buzzwords or just fluff, Dave and I get into all that. I had a great conversation with him. Here's my chat with Dave Ponte.  All right, today, we got Dave Ponte here from Audiomack, and I got to give him credit, the company has been having a pretty good run lately. They launched some new platforms, they've been growing internationally. Dave, we got to get the latest on how things have been going on your end? David Ponte 02:50 Things have been going great. We're really happy about how 2022 is shaping up. And we have a lot of great new features and platforms and apps and other things that are going to help artists, you know, improve their careers and move music forward. Dan Runcie 03:06 Definitely. Yeah, I think it was a couple of months back, I feel like that, we're making the rounds because I had had Dave Macli about a year ago or so, had Zeon after that, and had Charlie Kaplan on most recently. And we talked all about Supporters. And I feel like this is a pretty big launch for you all when Charlie came on, we were just talking about the launch and the goals of having something where artists and fans can connect more directly in just bridging that line together.  And now you have at least a few months of it to see how things have been going. So how has that been so far? How is Supporters? David Ponte 03:42 I'm really happy with how it's launched. The product has worked really well. There hasn't been any when you're developing software, and you're adding a new feature like this, which is a completely different way that we would approach typically how our app would work. You know, we're a streaming platform, you know, you could play songs, you could follow artists, you could do all the things that you would do in a streaming platform, but now we're adding this e-commerce functionality. So it's a new foray for us. And it's gone off really, very smoothly. All the artists' supporters have been able to buy badges, it's all the finance and reconciliation portion has worked out very well, and the artists are really happy about this additional revenue stream that they can now employ. Dan Runcie 04:24 Nice. I got to imagine for a lot of the artists, it brings them closer because that's one of the reasons that they're likely building on Audiomack as opposed to elsewhere. I feel like one of the pitches that you all have had from the beginning is that – A. you're going to have artists that are much more in control of what they're doing from how they're building their brand on your platform.  And then I think, in addition, you're not necessarily always working with the artists who are more bound by a major record label or another entity. So by being able to have what I imagined a lot of independent artists using this tool and bring it up to you whether that is the through-line there, and of course, we're seeing so much happening with platforms in all different types of technologies trying to bring folks together, but I think you are able to do it in a way that is seamless, and it's visible because I think at the end of the day, people do want to be able to show off their fandom, and who they support. David Ponte 05:19 Yes, one thing that, you know, I talked to Charlie, you know, who was one of the main architects of this feature, and he was a guest on your podcast, I recommend everyone had to listen to him if you listen to this now. But he told me I was very, he's a very eloquent guy. And what he told me and I thought it was a good way to look about it is, this is the first hour of the new year with this supporters product, there's so many different things that we want to add, and that we're in the midst of adding when I wanted to share a couple of those on your podcast. And, and, you know, we always had this challenge, Dave Mackley and I write what your things are never going to be perfect. When you release a new product, a new part of our product, a new app, you're never going to release it. So you have to just eventually push it out, let the people experience it, consider their feedback, and then work that into future iterations. So that's what we're doing here. There's a lot of new things we want to add. And we want to revise. And, you know, I'm not just gonna sit here and tell you everything's perfect, right? That would be boring, number one. But number two, it's not reality, especially with when you're dealing with app development.  So one of the things we realized was the price of the supporters' badge, overall, I think was too high. So about a month into the program, we actually reduced the prices, the cost of the badge. So now, you know, you could buy a badge for $1 instead of $2 US and obviously changes depending on where you are, I don't think we're a global app, we're really big in Africa, particularly West Africa, and Nigeria have gone up. And once we lowered the price for the lowest cost badge from two to $1, we saw a lot more people buying badges and supporting those artists, we actually ended up creating more revenue for the artist with this small but impactful change. And we don't want, you know, the whole concept Audiomack has to have a low barrier to entry, whether an artist or whether you're a fan, you know, Audiomack is a free app, you could download, begin, take music offline for free, no matter where you are in the world. And if you're an artist, you could have unlimited space to upload your music, you have unlimited opportunities to look at the data, glean insights from how people are consuming your art. And now they can support you directly by buying a badge, a Supports badge. So that was one small but big, really big change, impactful change that we saw, and we made about four weeks into the launch of the product. Dan Runcie 07:41 So I think that's a key point. Because I think a lot of people from the outside may look at the price sensitivity of $2 to $1 and may not think it's much but that's what we're seeing in you know, the Western world and being able to think about that relative to the price of a streaming service increasing or anything like that. But you're obviously global, and you're growing in places where that difference makes a lot more or that difference is much more meaningful. So do you have any stats or any, how that difference is from a quantitative perspective of how much of an increase or usage rate you saw from lowering the price from two to one? David Ponte 08:17 Well, I don't know if I have that stat, particularly I wish I did. But we have more badges sold. I think once I did have my team collect was just the amount of money that we've made for artists since launch and that's 30,000 over $30,000. And that's a good point. We had that mindset. Obviously, we're a New York company, we're Americans. And we know it's hard for us to think about how what it might be like for someone in Nigeria or someone in Tanzania, for example. But we eventually figured it out. We got feedback from a lot of our ambassadors on our team out there. And I think the way probably to think about it is the streaming rate, right? So you know, you make a certain amount per stream on Spotify, title, Apple Music, SoundCloud, Youtube, Audiomack. And we're an ad-supported platform, right? So the majority of people who consume music on Audiomack do it for free. As I mentioned, we make money on ads, though the revenue from those ads pays the artists. So what we thought of is how can we increase the size of the pie? As opposed to how can we create more and more slices of that pie to split around, right? So if you look at some of the other streaming platforms, you know, powered royalties or this or that they're not making more money, they're just sending the money to different places, right? There's not more money in the pot. Let's send it around to more people that you listen to and that's not a bad idea. Inherently, I don't mind that at all. And that's good. But what we're trying to do is increase the pie. So when you buy a supporters badge, that pie is increased for that particular artist. And if you are making you know, $150 on 100,000 streams or you're making and maybe on Spotify $400 for 100,000 streams, again, depends on where you are and where you're listening. But if you get a certain amount of supporters, you know, we have a couple of artists that have 100 supporters on one song, now you're making even more than you are on Spotify. For that one song, everything is sort of comes into this effective stream rate, which actually is an advertising term that we flipped a little bit effective CPM or effective stream rate is sort of the amalgamation of all the different revenue that you're bringing in, that you could then turn to give to that artist. Dan Runcie 10:32 That makes sense. Because if you're thinking about supporters, and you're thinking about just how many artists, you know, total that $30,000 or plus worth of revenue, then you're likely, as you mentioned, you're probably going to have a few at the top, it sounds like there's a few that have 100 or more supporters, but I see. But it does seem like something where you know, as it grows, and it continues, that'll be good. But at least in my perception, you get some if I'm wrong, it seems like it's most likely going to be you know, a few artists that end up doing the doing really well with it. But then their success in a lot of ways not only paves the way for others, but if they become case studies, they could be like, Oh, look how much money so and so made for being able to support us that influences others who either are already on Audiomack, to push their supporters more heavily or encourage us folks that may be on a different platform to come in short years and do the same. David Ponte 11:27 That's a really good point. That's what my job and the marketing team's job has been to work with artists to create campaigns for those artists a way to get their fans engaged, but also to prove and provide a template for artists that might follow those artists that we're working with, to then do their own campaigns. And we've seen some of that, I'd like to see more, you know, when we built some additional functionality, and some changes, I think we will see more. But I wanted to give you some examples of some of the cool campaigns that we've seen artists do. So one is this is a Latin pop artist, her name is Noemi, and she had a really cool idea she came to us, we've helped her sort of put it together, essentially, one of her friends makes custom sneakers. So they made three different customs types of sneakers that like know, the sort of look and of the sneakers are obviously correlated to what her album and our theme of her album was that you support. And then when you support it, you know you have a chance to win these custom sneakers that she's going to sign that the artist is going to sign and send that. So she had a good amount of supporters, but not too many to where if you bought a badge, you would have no shot, right? I think she had close to 30 supporters for this. And one of those supporters will get this custom pair of like Air Force ones that are really, really dope. That was really cool example of how one artist, you know, created something with their fans and made some money in the process. But really, it was really to get more attention about her song. We had another artist, a huge dancehall artist, Alkaline, one of the biggest artists out of Jamaica, he's really big in Florida, there's a very large Jamaican diaspora in South Florida. And like the Fort Lauderdale area, I think there's more Jamaicans Jamaican-Americans there than anywhere in the US. So we got a concert, they're very highly sought-after events that happened actually just this past week. And if you were, he picked five supporters to come to the show on his behalf. So you, if you supported him in his song, you'd have a chance to win tickets to the show. So I thought that was really really interesting. He has such he was already getting he had more supporters than anyone who really didn't like do a campaign. He's just a mass of artists and Audiomack is really big in Jamaica and in the Caribbean. So his fans are really excited about that. I think a couple actually flew to Florida for the show. And they got a bunch of merch Audiomack merch, they got Alkaline merch, and they're really, really happy about that. So those are a couple of examples that I was really excited about, just like how we could bridge the gap from online to real-life, like a real-life experience. Dan Runcie 14:01 Yeah, the Alkaline story hits home for me, I've actually been getting better again, I have family in the Fort Lauderdale area. So that speaks volumes there. And I feel like I'm thinking about the other places of the country that have pretty big shake-up populations, of course, New York, but also our for the county, which is where I'm from you got a good amount there. So I feel like alkaline has some Audiomack real estate there as well. But I think you know, zooming out of it and talking to you and you know, most of your colleagues as well at Audiomack. I do see the broader strategy around getting creators on board, how do we best support them? And how do we empower them to maximize what they can do and use our platform to make that happen? I know you all recently launched the Creator app as well, which I think is also along these lines. So can you talk a little bit about that and what you thought the market needed that made you want to launch this? David Ponte 14:55 The Creator app, again, Charlie Kaplan, he was the architect of this and there was really a gap in the market, right? Like, if you look at our competitors, it's just not something that they focus on, right? Like the, you know, for our competitors, the majority of the music that they get are from distributors. So there's no touchpoint between the platform and the artist. And again, that's what our goal is to draw the shortest line between the artists and the fan. So more intermediaries expand that line, as opposed to shortening it. The Creator app is a tool that allows artists to through an app environment and not a website environment, what you could do on our Creator dashboard on the web, but the app allows you to engage with fans through comments. It allows you to see your stats, see where people are playing your music, what geographic area, see, you know, the graphs in terms of how many streams and how many playlists, ads, and favorite favorites are getting. And we're adding monetization to this as well. In fact, it's almost done by the time people statistics should be, the monetization functionality should be available in the Audiomack creator app. And what this will do is allow you to withdraw money from your audio Max stream earnings and your supportive edge sales directly. So this was a really, really important feature because, you know, if you think about if you have crypto, right, if you have the Coinbase app or one of these other apps, you probably look at seeing how much money or you're losing or gaining on a given minute, right? With crypto, you open your banking apps all the time you open your stock apps, if you have investments, when there's money involved, people are gonna want to check it all the time, obviously, it's their livelihood. So we're gonna give the artists the ability to withdraw directly from the Creator app and put that money in their pocket. And hopefully, they'll use that to expand their artistry, develop their career, and invest in tools that help them, you know, create more art for all of us. So the critter app is actually grown more than I thought we've already beat our goals. You know, we had goals for the marketing team to exceed a certain amount. And we've already exceeded them way early. So there's a high demand for it. And I think our competitors don't really take that part of the artist's lifecycle seriously. And I think it's really important. So we were happy to swoop in and provide that value for our artists. Dan Runcie 17:08 And I think for the folks listening, to a lot of people, no, of course, you have the web interface, but a lot of the companies do go through this transition where okay, we clearly have it's available on the web. But let's build the app. And there's a number of reasons why I think it just leads to more stickiness, more usage. But are there any other advantages that you all had in terms of, okay, this app, whether it's the potential to have a moat around this, or the potential to have something stronger, because, of course, as you mentioned, a lot of it was available through the web before. But I do think that you know, an app just allows you to have likely a few more lasting touchpoints, and being able to add a bit more direct value David Ponte 17:47 100%. The whole concept of having an app is how can you make it more sticky, right? You know, all the social media apps are designed to essentially monopolize your attention, right? And for better or worse, that's how the app world is and how the world is. So how can we make it more sticky? What are the things that artists really want to glean from an app like a creator app, you know, some things that make them you know, make better decisions, or provide insights that allow them to pivot, if things aren't working or put more resources into something is really working, they need the information to do that. And it needs to be an ease-to-access that information, you know, to access our Creator dashboard, you know, on the web, it's not the smoothest situation, it's made for a desktop website. So an app allows you to just see it, click on it, and then instantly access, it is much quicker. And we had a similar, it was a similar process back in 2015 when Audiomack was just a website. And we started to see all the web traffic going down, and all the mobile web traffic going up. And that was probably similar for a lot of companies at that time period, and then once we created the apps at the beginning of that year, the game changed for us, and it's just something about an app that people love, and it's probably because it's made to monopolize their thoughts, unfortunately. Dan Runcie 19:07 Yeah, definitely. And with this, you talked to a fair amount as well about your competitors. And of course, you're in the unique place where to call it DSP or digital streaming provider, maybe a bit too blanket because I think each of them are so different in what they offer. But I do think that you all have such a unique place where for a lot of it, maybe the competition at this point is if there is a home that an artist more likely to independent artists is trying to build and grow their career, it's whether or not that home is with you or with another else even if they may still some of them especially as they grow, they may still want to have the awareness wherever their listeners may be, so they may still put some stuff elsewhere but it's about Okay, where's that home base? Because I think no different than a company now. There's all these platforms where you could put your attention and everything but most people are poor. I'll be picking one or two to focus on and put everything behind. So I assume it's probably that way for artists, but it'd be good to hear from your perspective how that lens is, with competitors. Knowing that, you know, I'm sure you probably want to have that home base. But there are other artists that may, you know, have their feet in a few different waters. David Ponte 20:20 That's exactly right. Home Base, I mean, I believe Dave probably has used that exact language verbatim, to describe what our goal is, you know, we want an artist to again, open up that Audiomack app and see if everything is going and then go from there. I always tell artists, when we speak to them, I'm not asking them to do everything, and only on Audiomack, right, Audiomack is a piece of their puzzle, they're going to have to put out visuals, they're going to have to use other platforms to gain fans. And that's fine. But we want them to really start their day and start their journey with Audiomack. So we have a couple of tools that are coming out very soon, that should reinforce that brand vision of becoming the home base for an artist at first place that they start the first song they upload the first 10,000 plays that they get. And it's incredibly important, it's incredibly competitive because we're, you know, really a David and Goliath scenario here, it's not a coincidence at all, our name is Dave here. So, you know, we're dealing with companies that are in the billions and billions of dollars of revenue. And, you know, we have to use that to our advantage, you know, similar to that old story from the Bible, or, you know, you have to be nimble, you have to outsmart them, you have to out-innovate them. And sometimes that works to your advantage if you want to add a product. And you know, Dave, and I and the team are behind it, we'll do it quick. You can't do that at a big company with all the bureaucracy, and that's owned by shareholders. So we try to innovate, you know, and be ahead of the wave as opposed to following the way and that's precisely it was creating that home base being the first place that artists journey so that one, they remember you in their laurels, you and we've seen that with a lot of artists, you know, that we've helped launch that are big now. And they come and they still, you know, fuck with us, for lack of a better phrase, pardon my French, but they come back and they still come to our studio, they're still meet with us, still create content with us and still promote Audiomack links. Dan Runcie 22:18 Yeah, and I think you alluded to this artist's guy that you have coming up because I think a lot of it's that right? What is that playbook that you want to be able to give artists that they can see, and I'm sure it's involving Audiomack, but you're probably addressing the broader music ecosystem and chess promotion as well. Is there anything more about that rollout? And what that will look like for artists to share? Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. David Ponte 22:45 Yeah, so the artist's guide is going to be a free educational resource and glossary for artists, musicians, primarily, that are just starting or have recently started their career in their development as an artist. So the way that we approached it is if we're an artist, what would I search into Google, right? Meaning when do I need a manager? Or what is publishing? Or, you know, when do I get a lawyer? Or when should I get a record deal? Or what distributor should I choose? Anything that you might like, type into Google is kind of how we thought of it is something that we wanted to provide that answer for. And we had our very talented writer and editor, senior head of their, Donna Jasmine, best-selling author, Donna, who had interviewed dozens and dozens of industry experts from companies ranging from you know, Sony, to Universal to BMI to just all the big companies that do provide services for artists, and ask them the answer to those questions that you might type into Google. So we cultivated all this, we aggregated all this. And now we're providing all this for free, we're not charging anyone for it. If you go on the Audiomack app, you'll be able to access them. And you'll be able to learn and find out the answers to these questions. Because, frankly, I didn't even know a lot of these answers. I mean, there's so much to learn in the music industry. And you know, I know some things but there's a lot of things that I don't know, and I wouldn't be going through this guide learned a lot. And it can be one small decision that an artist would make that can make a huge impact on their career in their life. Right? If maybe they just hesitated before they signed that deal they might have not been locked in. Or maybe if they just chose that distributor that you know, provided them an entryway into all these different playlists or, you know, whatever. They would have been better off saying we're very excited to drop this should drop it into some point on April 22. And I really think people are going to be excited about this. We'll also have a video component which we're calling artists one on one. It's really really cool. So basically, it's, you know, a narration of these answers, and we have a whole animated series devoted to that similar to Schoolhouse Rock. If you remember We're from back in the day. So it's like Schoolhouse Rock vibes, but with artists' education, so we realized that a lot of artists, you know, aren't going to read long paragraphs about stuff, just Realistically speaking, or just people, in general, see a long paragraphs, and we're not going to read it. So we created this audio and visual way to consume that, as a lot of artists probably will learn better that way. So they'll be able to figure out some of the answers to these questions that they've been interested in learning about. Dan Runcie 25:27 Does the artist’s guide include following Z from Audiomack on Twitter to make sure you stay up on the latest? David Ponte 25:34 So I will tell you the truth in his tweet threads are one of the inspirations for this, I'm not even capping at all this sort of predicated our decision to do this, because his threads get so much engagement. And people are genuinely interested in learning about this stuff. Sometimes people are afraid to ask, they don't want to be known as a beginner artist, right? Artists, especially in rap and hip hop, you know, you start off as successful write your first song, you're already talking about how you're really successful, you might be hesitant to maybe admit to yourself that you need to learn about these things if you're going to be successful in the long term. So hopefully, we could provide this to any type of artist who, you know, even shows the slightest interest in gaining this knowledge.  Dan Runcie 26:20 Yeah, I agree. And I said that in there because I think it's 100%. We just know how especially Twitter is as a platform, there is always going to be some crazy take that rises to the top, and having someone like Zia there to be like, “Hey, I'm going to call the bullshit, how would I see it, and this is how it is.” It always gets engagement or the organic tweets that he has, and I remember telling that to him last time I saw him like, I mean, he knows it, but I'm like, you know, you're doing good work. And that's why these things are valuable. There's so much that isn't necessarily there out in the open even as much information that there is now and sometimes sure you can listen to some of these clubhouse rooms, where you're not always going to get the most helpful information out there, you may get passionate voices that sound like they know what they're talking about. But that isn't always the case. So I think that having something like this, that's easy to access, because at the end of the day, you know, whether it's on Twitter, or whatever, so there's only so much reach that we have. But knowing that your platform with audiomack is the biggest reach that you all have as a company being able to bring that altogether doesn't make sense. And I mean, I think for you all, this is how you kind of have that David versus Goliath piece because the other companies don't necessarily put the same things out to the same extent they have their own version of it. Like, I know that one of the major DSPs put out a report a couple of weeks ago about some of their stats, and we always see those things. But I think that it's a little bit tougher for the companies that aren't as forward about supporting independent artists are really trying to be that advocate when their role is much more to serve and be their, you know, their main customers than major record labels versus your main customer is the artist. So it's a very different dynamic. David Ponte 28:03 That's a very nice way to put it, you can probably frame it in a way that sounds much more nefarious and evil. But listen, if another company is helping artists succeed, we are not going to be, have any problem with that. That's ultimately what we want. That's why we're agnostic. You know, if an artist has success and one of our competitors, I will never say don't do them, or our competitors might say that about us, right. But ultimately, we want them to become successful. Because, you know, for example, like the artist I was talking about what lotto she just came out with are really good. Um, she performed at one of our shows, you know, a couple of years before the pandemic. And you know, we had her come by our studio, we created content with her when really, she was not very well known outside of Atlanta. And now she's an amazing, like, a huge star was a huge hit album. And she came back and she did one of our fine-tunes, which is one of our video content series. And she came back and she did that for us, her, and her fans. And if we didn't have that we didn't establish that trust with her and her team, you know, multiple years ago, then she would have just not came by when she was in New York. So, you know, I think when you put out a good energy, it comes back to you, we really believe in that. So the other companies that might have an interest in not having artists be educated, unfortunately, there probably would not want that, because then they might not get the best type of deal when they're working with those artists. And unfortunately, that's how the music industry is. And we're hoping to change that as much as we can. Dan Runcie 29:34 Are there ever any challenges that you do? Face, just given the position that you're in? Of course, I mean, on one hand, I do look at what you're doing very different than some of the major streaming or some of the much larger streaming services, but they in many ways are still offering a service and you know, at a much larger scale, but how does that impact your strategy or your goals for what you're doing? Are there any regular challenges that their presence creates, or that you know, you all have, as you know, your role in the, as a streaming platform? David Ponte 30:09 We do have many challenges, it's tough, part of the challenges stem from just growing, you know, just as any business grows, you know, more employees, you know, more money, more problems, kind of thing. I think we want to expand even more globally, one of our focuses, right, so as the CMO, you know, me and the other executives figure out are what, what are we focused on, we have to kind of think of things in that way, where it's like, alright, let's focus on what we're going to do for the first half of 22. One of them is how are we going to bring African music to the rest of the world, and particularly to the diaspora in the US, right? So we're really big in Africa, where we help sort of paved the way for a lot of Afro beats music to be popular in the UK and in the US. So we think we want to expand this music elsewhere to other places where people might want, you know, whether you're a part of the diaspora, or whether you're just someone who might like the Afrobeat vibe, which is most people, you know, in Europe, you know, Belgium, Germany, you know, we're looking to get into Punjabi music, and they have a large diaspora in the US, Canada, UK. So the challenge is having to do all these deals with all these labels, and get them to allow us to get licenses around the world, and especially in Africa, where we have such a large user base, and we have a lot of leverage because we are very big there. So, you know, we want to get the best deals we can. And it's a tough deal. Doing licensing deals with labels is very, very tough. It takes our team a lot of time, it doesn't move quickly. As I mentioned earlier, we're used to moving quick and being nimble. And then when we work with large companies, it takes a while. So that's a challenge for me being the curator, and the marketer is trying to figure out, you know, how can I get these artists to get more fans getting more fans means I need their music to be available in more regions. So that's certainly a challenge. I think another challenge is just how can we maintain our differentiation? What are our competitive advantages? You know, a lot of times, you know, we're working with to combat these other companies, they have such large budgets and resources. And, you know, we have to fight the urge to try and follow them instead, to create our own path or own blue ocean, which was a book that came out years ago I read that made a big impact on is how can I, you know, create our own blue ocean. And, as opposed to following and trying to catch up, let's have them chase us instead. And we've had some success doing that a lot of the big streaming services have copied us, and a lot of the things that we've done, which is flattering, but annoying, too. So how can we maintain our value proposition, but really fortify it, as opposed to saying, We got to do more things like they're doing because they have so many users, so it must work. Let's do what they're doing. So that's a challenge is to try and say, All right, let's How can we accomplish it a different way? How can we keep this person engaged in the app in a different way? So part of that is things like artist’s guides, orders, and Audiomack World in general, which is sort of a, which is where the artists guide is going to be part of the Audiomack World, which is essentially a blog interview site. That's any streaming service, right? streaming services, utility, you have songs in there, you go to the live streaming service, the same songs are in there. There's not much difference between Spotify and Apple Music, you know, besides some UI, maybe podcasts. But you know, Audiomack World is an entire site that you could read and learn and discover artists without just relying on a playlist algorithm to put it in front of you at the right time. We have this other way, really the old way, because we come out of the blog era. No, we're born out of the blog era. So that was how you discovered music at the end of the arts in the beginning part of the 10s. And we tried to take what was special about that, where you learned to read about artists, and you learned about them through interviews and stuff like that on blogs, and we're taking that and we put that in the utility of the streaming service. So we're trying to just build that out and really showcase our the artists that use us in a different way than other streaming services. Dan Runcie 34:15 Right, and that point to about them copying you, that's, you know, not surprising at all because I think to your point, you're doing unique things, you're able to move a bit more nimbly, and I'm sure you likely also get acquisition offers, especially in this climate that we're in now. And if you're just like thinking about, you know, where things are, I think even things in terms of the future, whether it's, you know, web three or the metaverse, there's opportunities that you all like we have to be able to make moves in those areas if that's something that's on your roadmap, a bit easier than some of the others because they are larger companies, and it's just tougher for them to pivot in that type of way. David Ponte 34:55 Yeah, Web 3.0 is interesting. Everyone likes to talk about web three. It's changing the Internet as we know it, slowly, but surely, a lot of it is hype. You know, there's some music streaming services that are Web 3.0 and some up cool ideas, and I like them. And then other ones are probably scams that people are gonna lose a lot of money on, I think one of them, 80% of the tokens are owned by one person. So it's, whatever you see something like that, you have to question, you know, the actual motives of that one person there. No, and they've already done a lot of shady things that I will get into. But other Web 3.0 music companies are doing cool things, and we look at that we go, we might be able to do something like that. Again, if it adds value to artists, it could put money in artists' pockets, and it's like legitimately and the value exchange between the fan and the artist is equal, then you're damn right, we're gonna look into doing that. There's some awesome, exciting things we're looking at, in terms of, again, this concept of supporters, how can we create a real-life experience from something that was born out of the app, if you buy a badge, a supporters badge, maybe that's an NFT, maybe that NFT gets you access into a shop, or it gets you access into, you know, sell merch, or something like that? You know, can you accomplish those things without having to, you know, waste a lot of electricity, maybe, but maybe there's a way to do it cheap. It could be on the blockchain, you know, you could validate the token that someone has or the NFT that they have, and then provide, you know, that gets some access into something or, you know, helps create a community around. I think a lot of the appeal of web three is that it's a community in a discord. Right? All the big ones are in a Discord. You know, people want to be part of a group of like-minded individuals. So it's maybe not because of the blockchain, but because you're in a community, right? So we're trying to think about, how can we accomplish things with does web three, make it more efficient, cheaper, easier, more lucrative than we would employ that, but we're not going to do it just for the press, which some companies are are doing and watch. Dan Runcie 37:05 Something that I thought about, I remember thinking about this back when I had the conversation with Charlie, and he was first explaining the idea behind supporters is this is a concept that other platforms outside of music have done on the blockchain, but you aren't really shown that, okay, you could still have these dynamics off of it. And I'm not going to get into the whole discussion of if you could do something on versus off-chain, that and you still do it on-chain. But I do think that it highlights that a, if you're going to do something in this space, it should really be either an additive in a way that you're leveraging something that you didn't have like I think there's a very easy connection of thinking of what could a token look like for a supporter of a particular artist like Iran? Like I think there's plenty of things there. But does that enable you to do something that you couldn't currently already do through the current audio Max supporters? Or does allow you to do it better or more efficiently or something to build to the future? I think, I mean, I could imagine that that's the thought process, as opposed to just kind of, oh, let's do a web three thing. And then let's do that. But I've seen it, you know, different pitch decks and all these things. And it's like, I don't know if that's quite the way to do it, but I feel like, for you all, there's a clear through-line there. David Ponte 38:22 Yeah, there is. And that was well said, I concur with what you just said, you know, there's, do it to add value. Don't do it for the like dog and pony show part of it, where it's like, we're on-trend. We're doing all this Web 3.0. Now we're worth more, you know, one of the things you know, our supporter's badge, you know what I like it if like if you bought a supporters badge, it was actually an NFT. And we minted it for you. And then you could keep that, or you could sell that or trade that. That would be great. I mean, there's obviously a ton of work involved with that. One of the things that I think a lot of companies are wrestling with is that you know, Web 3.0 is inherently decentralized, right? Businesses are not decentralized, they are centralized. And you want to keep it centralized because that's how you control things. And that's ultimately how you're going to make money. But if you put it on the blockchain, and it's decentralized, you don't control it anymore. And that can be a bad thing, can be a good thing, but could be a bad thing, too. And there's risk involved with that. And obviously, companies are about mitigating risk. So I do think there's a couple of things we're looking at that could be really interested in adding a lot of value to artists, you know, being able to scan and an NFT to get into a community. Right? If you buy a supporter's badge, you are now eligible to be messaged by that artist. So like Wiz Khalifa did, he did, did a supporters campaign, people supported him, and he gave them you know, I forgot the amount I think 25% or 20% off of March. So he sent them a message. Thanks for being a supporter. You know, I'm really grateful and you know, by I just came out with a new capsule and you get 20% off so stuff like that, you know, can you then take your NFT or somehow prove that you have that as opposed to putting in a code? You show them that or scan that or do something? There's a lot of potential for sure. Dan Runcie 40:11 Yeah, I think so if we're just thinking about separating the noise from the opportunity, I think there's still a lot of room to grow with that for sure. But I think we'll get there. I mean, like I've used as an analogy before, I think we're very much still in this, like pets.com era of things. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But that means that there is some grift, there's some good, and I still think we're kind of in this period, where the real champions of this era are still, you know, may still yet to emerge. Some of them may have already started. But we'll see. It's an exciting time for sure. But we get to the tail end. And before we let you go, I know you shared a few things that you already have in store and a few things that you have coming up. But is there anything else coming up soon for Audiomack that you want to plug in or let the tribal audience know about? David Ponte 40:59 I mentioned how we're going to, one of our goals is in focuses, is to bring Afro beats to America. And we've done this to some degree, we want to keep doing it. You know, all of us here are just such big fans of that type of music and that wave, you know, whether it be Burna Boy, David, Joeboy, Fireboy, Tiwa Savage, Yemi Alade, there's just so many great artists and also from South Africa, we're really big fans of Amapiano and sort of the South African dance music scene. So we want to bring that type of dance music to the US and be at the forefront of that. So there could be a tour coming up with a few artists that are going to be coming maybe to a city near you. Or maybe if you buy a supporter’s badge for these artists, you'll get certain types of access, maybe you get to meet the artist. So we're trying to take what was cool about supporters and about Audionmack and the app, and then turn that into real-life things in the real experiences that are turned into just unforgettable memories for that fan. And great revenue opportunities for that artist. So stay tuned. Dan Runcie 42:04 That's awesome. Good stuff. I'm excited for you guys. This will be good. We'll definitely keep in touch with you and stay in lock with what Audiomack is doing. But Dave, thanks for coming on. It's been a pleasure. David Ponte 42:14 Thanks for having me, Dan, and it's, I love what you're doing. I'm the one who puts the podcast on our trending section on audiomack and helps you get more fans like that. So please keep uploading, keep helping people, learn about the music business and the music industry, and I'm thrilled to be on and can't wait to see how my voice sounds when I listen to it later. Dan Runcie 42:37 No, I appreciate that. No. Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. It’s been ten years since Dave Ponte co-founded Audiomack alongside Dave Macli. The decade has been strong in international growth for the music streaming platform — Audiomack recently became Nigeria’s number-one overall iOS app in a given week — but if Ponte has it his way, Audiomack will next become THE “home base” for artists, a place to begin their entire musical journey. The platform has rolled out numerous features to support those lofty ambitions, plus has several others in the works. 


One of the features that is live is the Supporters monetization tool. Launched in December, the tool allows fans to directly pay artists in exchange for a “badge” that memorializes their name in their profile and that of the supported artists. In the four months of being live on-site, Supporters has created $30,000 in new revenue for artists on Audiomack. As Dave told us in the episode, unlike competing streaming services, Audiomack is concerned with increasing the “size of the pie” for the entire music industry — not merely finding additional ways to ”slice the pie.”


Dave and I spoke at length about artist monetization — and how Web 3.0 possibly fits into the equation — throughout the episode. Here’s everything else we covered: 


[0:00 Big Start To 2022 For Audiomack

[0:55] Evaluating Audiomack’s Supporters’ Monetization Tool Post-Launch

[3:38] Updating The Supporters’ Product Over Time

[6:47] $30,000 Created For Artists (So Far) With Supporters Tool 

[10:25] Artist Campaigns On Audiomack

[14:28] Audiomack’s Newly-Launched Creator App 

[17:50] Mobile App “Stickiness” 

[20:23] Audiomack’s “Home Base” Aspirations

[24:05] Artist Resource Guide On Audiomack

[27:52] How Brian Zisook’s Twitter Threads Influenced Artist Guide 

[30:20] Different Dynamic Between Audiomack & Other Platforms

[32:55] Audiomack’s Biggest Challenges 

[38:42] How Does Web 3.0 Factor Into Audiomack’s Future?

[46:26] Audiomack Motivated To Bring AfroBeats To America


To listen to more Audiomack Trapital episodes, check out the two below:

Audiomack Co-Founder & CEO Dave Macli: 

https://trapital.co/2020/11/16/dave-macli-on-audiomacks-role-in-music-streaming-partnership-with-djbooth-and-global-expansion/


Audiomack VP of Product Charlie Kaplan: 

https://trapital.co/2021/12/10/charlie-kaplan-on-audiomack-supporters-artist-fan-monetization-and-streaming-business-models/


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Dave Ponte

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 


________

TRANSCRIPTION


David Ponte 00:00

We cultivated all this. We aggregated all this. And now we're providing all of this for free. We're not charging anyone for it. If you go on the Audiomack app, you'll be able to access them. And you'll be able to learn and find out the answers to these questions because, frankly, I didn't even know a lot of these answers. I mean, there's so much to learn in the music industry. And you know, I know some things but there's a lot of things that I don't know. And I’ve, when going through this guide, learned a lot. And it can be one small decision that an artist would make, that can make a huge impact on their career in their life.


Dan Runcie 00:39

Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's guest is Dave Ponte. The Chief Marketing Officer and co-founder of Audiomack. Audiomack is a music streaming platform and a music discovery service that reaches more than 20 million people across the world. It was great to chat with Dave because a few months back, I had talked to Charlie Kaplan fromAudiomack. This is when they first launched their platform, Supporters. Supporters is a tool that brings artists and fans more directly together where fans can directly contribute to a release of an artist give money to the artist for that, have their name be associated with that, and be able to show that badge through the Audiomack platform. We talked about the rollout of that we talked about how that fits more broadly, with Audiomack strategy to be a home base for artists and how it's doing that also through its creator app, through its artist's guide, and a few of the other things it has planned. 


And that pivots us into a discussion about how Audiomack’s strategy fits within the broader music ecosystem in the broader streaming service. There are much bigger streaming services, but many of them are still copying a lot of the moves that Audiomack has done. So we talked about what that dynamic is where Audiomack is growing most right now and how this company is thinking about the future. And when you think about web3, when you think about all these other things, how much of this is an actual opportunity, how many of these things are buzzwords or just fluff, Dave and I get into all that. I had a great conversation with him. Here's my chat with Dave Ponte. 


All right, today, we got Dave Ponte here from Audiomack, and I got to give him credit, the company has been having a pretty good run lately. They launched some new platforms, they've been growing internationally. Dave, we got to get the latest on how things have been going on your end?


David Ponte 02:50

Things have been going great. We're really happy about how 2022 is shaping up. And we have a lot of great new features and platforms and apps and other things that are going to help artists, you know, improve their careers and move music forward.


Dan Runcie 03:06

Definitely. Yeah, I think it was a couple of months back, I feel like that, we're making the rounds because I had had Dave Macli about a year ago or so, had Zeon after that, and had Charlie Kaplan on most recently. And we talked all about Supporters. And I feel like this is a pretty big launch for you all when Charlie came on, we were just talking about the launch and the goals of having something where artists and fans can connect more directly in just bridging that line together. 


And now you have at least a few months of it to see how things have been going. So how has that been so far? How is Supporters?


David Ponte 03:42

I'm really happy with how it's launched. The product has worked really well. There hasn't been any when you're developing software, and you're adding a new feature like this, which is a completely different way that we would approach typically how our app would work. You know, we're a streaming platform, you know, you could play songs, you could follow artists, you could do all the things that you would do in a streaming platform, but now we're adding this e-commerce functionality. So it's a new foray for us. And it's gone off really, very smoothly. All the artists' supporters have been able to buy badges, it's all the finance and reconciliation portion has worked out very well, and the artists are really happy about this additional revenue stream that they can now employ.


Dan Runcie 04:24

Nice. I got to imagine for a lot of the artists, it brings them closer because that's one of the reasons that they're likely building on Audiomack as opposed to elsewhere. I feel like one of the pitches that you all have had from the beginning is that – A. you're going to have artists that are much more in control of what they're doing from how they're building their brand on your platform. 


And then I think, in addition, you're not necessarily always working with the artists who are more bound by a major record label or another entity. So by being able to have what I imagined a lot of independent artists using this tool and bring it up to you whether that is the through-line there, and of course, we're seeing so much happening with platforms in all different types of technologies trying to bring folks together, but I think you are able to do it in a way that is seamless, and it's visible because I think at the end of the day, people do want to be able to show off their fandom, and who they support.


David Ponte 05:19

Yes, one thing that, you know, I talked to Charlie, you know, who was one of the main architects of this feature, and he was a guest on your podcast, I recommend everyone had to listen to him if you listen to this now. But he told me I was very, he's a very eloquent guy. And what he told me and I thought it was a good way to look about it is, this is the first hour of the new year with this supporters product, there's so many different things that we want to add, and that we're in the midst of adding when I wanted to share a couple of those on your podcast. And, and, you know, we always had this challenge, Dave Mackley and I write what your things are never going to be perfect. When you release a new product, a new part of our product, a new app, you're never going to release it. So you have to just eventually push it out, let the people experience it, consider their feedback, and then work that into future iterations. So that's what we're doing here. There's a lot of new things we want to add. And we want to revise. And, you know, I'm not just gonna sit here and tell you everything's perfect, right? That would be boring, number one. But number two, it's not reality, especially with when you're dealing with app development. 


So one of the things we realized was the price of the supporters' badge, overall, I think was too high. So about a month into the program, we actually reduced the prices, the cost of the badge. So now, you know, you could buy a badge for $1 instead of $2 US and obviously changes depending on where you are, I don't think we're a global app, we're really big in Africa, particularly West Africa, and Nigeria have gone up. And once we lowered the price for the lowest cost badge from two to $1, we saw a lot more people buying badges and supporting those artists, we actually ended up creating more revenue for the artist with this small but impactful change. And we don't want, you know, the whole concept Audiomack has to have a low barrier to entry, whether an artist or whether you're a fan, you know, Audiomack is a free app, you could download, begin, take music offline for free, no matter where you are in the world. And if you're an artist, you could have unlimited space to upload your music, you have unlimited opportunities to look at the data, glean insights from how people are consuming your art. And now they can support you directly by buying a badge, a Supports badge. So that was one small but big, really big change, impactful change that we saw, and we made about four weeks into the launch of the product.


Dan Runcie 07:41

So I think that's a key point. Because I think a lot of people from the outside may look at the price sensitivity of $2 to $1 and may not think it's much but that's what we're seeing in you know, the Western world and being able to think about that relative to the price of a streaming service increasing or anything like that. But you're obviously global, and you're growing in places where that difference makes a lot more or that difference is much more meaningful. So do you have any stats or any, how that difference is from a quantitative perspective of how much of an increase or usage rate you saw from lowering the price from two to one?


David Ponte 08:17

Well, I don't know if I have that stat, particularly I wish I did. But we have more badges sold. I think once I did have my team collect was just the amount of money that we've made for artists since launch and that's 30,000 over $30,000. And that's a good point. We had that mindset. Obviously, we're a New York company, we're Americans. And we know it's hard for us to think about how what it might be like for someone in Nigeria or someone in Tanzania, for example. But we eventually figured it out. We got feedback from a lot of our ambassadors on our team out there. And I think the way probably to think about it is the streaming rate, right? So you know, you make a certain amount per stream on Spotify, title, Apple Music, SoundCloud, Youtube, Audiomack. And we're an ad-supported platform, right? So the majority of people who consume music on Audiomack do it for free. As I mentioned, we make money on ads, though the revenue from those ads pays the artists. So what we thought of is how can we increase the size of the pie? As opposed to how can we create more and more slices of that pie to split around, right? So if you look at some of the other streaming platforms, you know, powered royalties or this or that they're not making more money, they're just sending the money to different places, right? There's not more money in the pot. Let's send it around to more people that you listen to and that's not a bad idea. Inherently, I don't mind that at all. And that's good. But what we're trying to do is increase the pie. So when you buy a supporters badge, that pie is increased for that particular artist. And if you are making you know, $150 on 100,000 streams or you're making and maybe on Spotify $400 for 100,000 streams, again, depends on where you are and where you're listening. But if you get a certain amount of supporters, you know, we have a couple of artists that have 100 supporters on one song, now you're making even more than you are on Spotify. For that one song, everything is sort of comes into this effective stream rate, which actually is an advertising term that we flipped a little bit effective CPM or effective stream rate is sort of the amalgamation of all the different revenue that you're bringing in, that you could then turn to give to that artist.


Dan Runcie 10:32

That makes sense. Because if you're thinking about supporters, and you're thinking about just how many artists, you know, total that $30,000 or plus worth of revenue, then you're likely, as you mentioned, you're probably going to have a few at the top, it sounds like there's a few that have 100 or more supporters, but I see. But it does seem like something where you know, as it grows, and it continues, that'll be good. But at least in my perception, you get some if I'm wrong, it seems like it's most likely going to be you know, a few artists that end up doing the doing really well with it. But then their success in a lot of ways not only paves the way for others, but if they become case studies, they could be like, Oh, look how much money so and so made for being able to support us that influences others who either are already on Audiomack, to push their supporters more heavily or encourage us folks that may be on a different platform to come in short years and do the same.


David Ponte 11:27

That's a really good point. That's what my job and the marketing team's job has been to work with artists to create campaigns for those artists a way to get their fans engaged, but also to prove and provide a template for artists that might follow those artists that we're working with, to then do their own campaigns. And we've seen some of that, I'd like to see more, you know, when we built some additional functionality, and some changes, I think we will see more. But I wanted to give you some examples of some of the cool campaigns that we've seen artists do. So one is this is a Latin pop artist, her name is Noemi, and she had a really cool idea she came to us, we've helped her sort of put it together, essentially, one of her friends makes custom sneakers. So they made three different customs types of sneakers that like know, the sort of look and of the sneakers are obviously correlated to what her album and our theme of her album was that you support. And then when you support it, you know you have a chance to win these custom sneakers that she's going to sign that the artist is going to sign and send that. So she had a good amount of supporters, but not too many to where if you bought a badge, you would have no shot, right? I think she had close to 30 supporters for this. And one of those supporters will get this custom pair of like Air Force ones that are really, really dope. That was really cool example of how one artist, you know, created something with their fans and made some money in the process. But really, it was really to get more attention about her song. We had another artist, a huge dancehall artist, Alkaline, one of the biggest artists out of Jamaica, he's really big in Florida, there's a very large Jamaican diaspora in South Florida. And like the Fort Lauderdale area, I think there's more Jamaicans Jamaican-Americans there than anywhere in the US. So we got a concert, they're very highly sought-after events that happened actually just this past week. And if you were, he picked five supporters to come to the show on his behalf. So you, if you supported him in his song, you'd have a chance to win tickets to the show. So I thought that was really really interesting. He has such he was already getting he had more supporters than anyone who really didn't like do a campaign. He's just a mass of artists and Audiomack is really big in Jamaica and in the Caribbean. So his fans are really excited about that. I think a couple actually flew to Florida for the show. And they got a bunch of merch Audiomack merch, they got Alkaline merch, and they're really, really happy about that. So those are a couple of examples that I was really excited about, just like how we could bridge the gap from online to real-life, like a real-life experience.


Dan Runcie 14:01

Yeah, the Alkaline story hits home for me, I've actually been getting better again, I have family in the Fort Lauderdale area. So that speaks volumes there. And I feel like I'm thinking about the other places of the country that have pretty big shake-up populations, of course, New York, but also our for the county, which is where I'm from you got a good amount there. So I feel like alkaline has some Audiomack real estate there as well. But I think you know, zooming out of it and talking to you and you know, most of your colleagues as well at Audiomack. I do see the broader strategy around getting creators on board, how do we best support them? And how do we empower them to maximize what they can do and use our platform to make that happen? I know you all recently launched the Creator app as well, which I think is also along these lines. So can you talk a little bit about that and what you thought the market needed that made you want to launch this?


David Ponte 14:55

The Creator app, again, Charlie Kaplan, he was the architect of this and there was really a gap in the market, right? Like, if you look at our competitors, it's just not something that they focus on, right? Like the, you know, for our competitors, the majority of the music that they get are from distributors. So there's no touchpoint between the platform and the artist. And again, that's what our goal is to draw the shortest line between the artists and the fan. So more intermediaries expand that line, as opposed to shortening it. The Creator app is a tool that allows artists to through an app environment and not a website environment, what you could do on our Creator dashboard on the web, but the app allows you to engage with fans through comments. It allows you to see your stats, see where people are playing your music, what geographic area, see, you know, the graphs in terms of how many streams and how many playlists, ads, and favorite favorites are getting. And we're adding monetization to this as well. In fact, it's almost done by the time people statistics should be, the monetization functionality should be available in the Audiomack creator app. And what this will do is allow you to withdraw money from your audio Max stream earnings and your supportive edge sales directly. So this was a really, really important feature because, you know, if you think about if you have crypto, right, if you have the Coinbase app or one of these other apps, you probably look at seeing how much money or you're losing or gaining on a given minute, right? With crypto, you open your banking apps all the time you open your stock apps, if you have investments, when there's money involved, people are gonna want to check it all the time, obviously, it's their livelihood. So we're gonna give the artists the ability to withdraw directly from the Creator app and put that money in their pocket. And hopefully, they'll use that to expand their artistry, develop their career, and invest in tools that help them, you know, create more art for all of us. So the critter app is actually grown more than I thought we've already beat our goals. You know, we had goals for the marketing team to exceed a certain amount. And we've already exceeded them way early. So there's a high demand for it. And I think our competitors don't really take that part of the artist's lifecycle seriously. And I think it's really important. So we were happy to swoop in and provide that value for our artists.


Dan Runcie 17:08

And I think for the folks listening, to a lot of people, no, of course, you have the web interface, but a lot of the companies do go through this transition where okay, we clearly have it's available on the web. But let's build the app. And there's a number of reasons why I think it just leads to more stickiness, more usage. But are there any other advantages that you all had in terms of, okay, this app, whether it's the potential to have a moat around this, or the potential to have something stronger, because, of course, as you mentioned, a lot of it was available through the web before. But I do think that you know, an app just allows you to have likely a few more lasting touchpoints, and being able to add a bit more direct value


David Ponte 17:47

100%. The whole concept of having an app is how can you make it more sticky, right? You know, all the social media apps are designed to essentially monopolize your attention, right? And for better or worse, that's how the app world is and how the world is. So how can we make it more sticky? What are the things that artists really want to glean from an app like a creator app, you know, some things that make them you know, make better decisions, or provide insights that allow them to pivot, if things aren't working or put more resources into something is really working, they need the information to do that. And it needs to be an ease-to-access that information, you know, to access our Creator dashboard, you know, on the web, it's not the smoothest situation, it's made for a desktop website. So an app allows you to just see it, click on it, and then instantly access, it is much quicker. And we had a similar, it was a similar process back in 2015 when Audiomack was just a website. And we started to see all the web traffic going down, and all the mobile web traffic going up. And that was probably similar for a lot of companies at that time period, and then once we created the apps at the beginning of that year, the game changed for us, and it's just something about an app that people love, and it's probably because it's made to monopolize their thoughts, unfortunately.


Dan Runcie 19:07

Yeah, definitely. And with this, you talked to a fair amount as well about your competitors. And of course, you're in the unique place where to call it DSP or digital streaming provider, maybe a bit too blanket because I think each of them are so different in what they offer. But I do think that you all have such a unique place where for a lot of it, maybe the competition at this point is if there is a home that an artist more likely to independent artists is trying to build and grow their career, it's whether or not that home is with you or with another else even if they may still some of them especially as they grow, they may still want to have the awareness wherever their listeners may be, so they may still put some stuff elsewhere but it's about Okay, where's that home base? Because I think no different than a company now. There's all these platforms where you could put your attention and everything but most people are poor. I'll be picking one or two to focus on and put everything behind. So I assume it's probably that way for artists, but it'd be good to hear from your perspective how that lens is, with competitors. Knowing that, you know, I'm sure you probably want to have that home base. But there are other artists that may, you know, have their feet in a few different waters.


David Ponte 20:20

That's exactly right. Home Base, I mean, I believe Dave probably has used that exact language verbatim, to describe what our goal is, you know, we want an artist to again, open up that Audiomack app and see if everything is going and then go from there. I always tell artists, when we speak to them, I'm not asking them to do everything, and only on Audiomack, right, Audiomack is a piece of their puzzle, they're going to have to put out visuals, they're going to have to use other platforms to gain fans. And that's fine. But we want them to really start their day and start their journey with Audiomack. So we have a couple of tools that are coming out very soon, that should reinforce that brand vision of becoming the home base for an artist at first place that they start the first song they upload the first 10,000 plays that they get. And it's incredibly important, it's incredibly competitive because we're, you know, really a David and Goliath scenario here, it's not a coincidence at all, our name is Dave here. So, you know, we're dealing with companies that are in the billions and billions of dollars of revenue. And, you know, we have to use that to our advantage, you know, similar to that old story from the Bible, or, you know, you have to be nimble, you have to outsmart them, you have to out-innovate them. And sometimes that works to your advantage if you want to add a product. And you know, Dave, and I and the team are behind it, we'll do it quick. You can't do that at a big company with all the bureaucracy, and that's owned by shareholders. So we try to innovate, you know, and be ahead of the wave as opposed to following the way and that's precisely it was creating that home base being the first place that artists journey so that one, they remember you in their laurels, you and we've seen that with a lot of artists, you know, that we've helped launch that are big now. And they come and they still, you know, fuck with us, for lack of a better phrase, pardon my French, but they come back and they still come to our studio, they're still meet with us, still create content with us and still promote Audiomack links.


Dan Runcie 22:18

Yeah, and I think you alluded to this artist's guy that you have coming up because I think a lot of it's that right? What is that playbook that you want to be able to give artists that they can see, and I'm sure it's involving Audiomack, but you're probably addressing the broader music ecosystem and chess promotion as well. Is there anything more about that rollout? And what that will look like for artists to share? Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor.


David Ponte 22:45

Yeah, so the artist's guide is going to be a free educational resource and glossary for artists, musicians, primarily, that are just starting or have recently started their career in their development as an artist. So the way that we approached it is if we're an artist, what would I search into Google, right? Meaning when do I need a manager? Or what is publishing? Or, you know, when do I get a lawyer? Or when should I get a record deal? Or what distributor should I choose? Anything that you might like, type into Google is kind of how we thought of it is something that we wanted to provide that answer for. And we had our very talented writer and editor, senior head of their, Donna Jasmine, best-selling author, Donna, who had interviewed dozens and dozens of industry experts from companies ranging from you know, Sony, to Universal to BMI to just all the big companies that do provide services for artists, and ask them the answer to those questions that you might type into Google. So we cultivated all this, we aggregated all this. And now we're providing all this for free, we're not charging anyone for it. If you go on the Audiomack app, you'll be able to access them. And you'll be able to learn and find out the answers to these questions. Because, frankly, I didn't even know a lot of these answers. I mean, there's so much to learn in the music industry. And you know, I know some things but there's a lot of things that I don't know, and I wouldn't be going through this guide learned a lot. And it can be one small decision that an artist would make that can make a huge impact on their career in their life. Right? If maybe they just hesitated before they signed that deal they might have not been locked in. Or maybe if they just chose that distributor that you know, provided them an entryway into all these different playlists or, you know, whatever. They would have been better off saying we're very excited to drop this should drop it into some point on April 22. And I really think people are going to be excited about this. We'll also have a video component which we're calling artists one on one. It's really really cool. So basically, it's, you know, a narration of these answers, and we have a whole animated series devoted to that similar to Schoolhouse Rock. If you remember We're from back in the day. So it's like Schoolhouse Rock vibes, but with artists' education, so we realized that a lot of artists, you know, aren't going to read long paragraphs about stuff, just Realistically speaking, or just people, in general, see a long paragraphs, and we're not going to read it. So we created this audio and visual way to consume that, as a lot of artists probably will learn better that way. So they'll be able to figure out some of the answers to these questions that they've been interested in learning about.


Dan Runcie 25:27

Does the artist’s guide include following Z from Audiomack on Twitter to make sure you stay up on the latest?


David Ponte 25:34

So I will tell you the truth in his tweet threads are one of the inspirations for this, I'm not even capping at all this sort of predicated our decision to do this, because his threads get so much engagement. And people are genuinely interested in learning about this stuff. Sometimes people are afraid to ask, they don't want to be known as a beginner artist, right? Artists, especially in rap and hip hop, you know, you start off as successful write your first song, you're already talking about how you're really successful, you might be hesitant to maybe admit to yourself that you need to learn about these things if you're going to be successful in the long term. So hopefully, we could provide this to any type of artist who, you know, even shows the slightest interest in gaining this knowledge. 


Dan Runcie 26:20

Yeah, I agree. And I said that in there because I think it's 100%. We just know how especially Twitter is as a platform, there is always going to be some crazy take that rises to the top, and having someone like Zia there to be like, “Hey, I'm going to call the bullshit, how would I see it, and this is how it is.” It always gets engagement or the organic tweets that he has, and I remember telling that to him last time I saw him like, I mean, he knows it, but I'm like, you know, you're doing good work. And that's why these things are valuable. There's so much that isn't necessarily there out in the open even as much information that there is now and sometimes sure you can listen to some of these clubhouse rooms, where you're not always going to get the most helpful information out there, you may get passionate voices that sound like they know what they're talking about. But that isn't always the case. So I think that having something like this, that's easy to access, because at the end of the day, you know, whether it's on Twitter, or whatever, so there's only so much reach that we have. But knowing that your platform with audiomack is the biggest reach that you all have as a company being able to bring that altogether doesn't make sense. And I mean, I think for you all, this is how you kind of have that David versus Goliath piece because the other companies don't necessarily put the same things out to the same extent they have their own version of it. Like, I know that one of the major DSPs put out a report a couple of weeks ago about some of their stats, and we always see those things. But I think that it's a little bit tougher for the companies that aren't as forward about supporting independent artists are really trying to be that advocate when their role is much more to serve and be their, you know, their main customers than major record labels versus your main customer is the artist. So it's a very different dynamic.


David Ponte 28:03

That's a very nice way to put it, you can probably frame it in a way that sounds much more nefarious and evil. But listen, if another company is helping artists succeed, we are not going to be, have any problem with that. That's ultimately what we want. That's why we're agnostic. You know, if an artist has success and one of our competitors, I will never say don't do them, or our competitors might say that about us, right. But ultimately, we want them to become successful. Because, you know, for example, like the artist I was talking about what lotto she just came out with are really good. Um, she performed at one of our shows, you know, a couple of years before the pandemic. And you know, we had her come by our studio, we created content with her when really, she was not very well known outside of Atlanta. And now she's an amazing, like, a huge star was a huge hit album. And she came back and she did one of our fine-tunes, which is one of our video content series. And she came back and she did that for us, her, and her fans. And if we didn't have that we didn't establish that trust with her and her team, you know, multiple years ago, then she would have just not came by when she was in New York. So, you know, I think when you put out a good energy, it comes back to you, we really believe in that. So the other companies that might have an interest in not having artists be educated, unfortunately, there probably would not want that, because then they might not get the best type of deal when they're working with those artists. And unfortunately, that's how the music industry is. And we're hoping to change that as much as we can.


Dan Runcie 29:34

Are there ever any challenges that you do? Face, just given the position that you're in? Of course, I mean, on one hand, I do look at what you're doing very different than some of the major streaming or some of the much larger streaming services, but they in many ways are still offering a service and you know, at a much larger scale, but how does that impact your strategy or your goals for what you're doing? Are there any regular challenges that their presence creates, or that you know, you all have, as you know, your role in the, as a streaming platform?


David Ponte 30:09

We do have many challenges, it's tough, part of the challenges stem from just growing, you know, just as any business grows, you know, more employees, you know, more money, more problems, kind of thing. I think we want to expand even more globally, one of our focuses, right, so as the CMO, you know, me and the other executives figure out are what, what are we focused on, we have to kind of think of things in that way, where it's like, alright, let's focus on what we're going to do for the first half of 22. One of them is how are we going to bring African music to the rest of the world, and particularly to the diaspora in the US, right? So we're really big in Africa, where we help sort of paved the way for a lot of Afro beats music to be popular in the UK and in the US. So we think we want to expand this music elsewhere to other places where people might want, you know, whether you're a part of the diaspora, or whether you're just someone who might like the Afrobeat vibe, which is most people, you know, in Europe, you know, Belgium, Germany, you know, we're looking to get into Punjabi music, and they have a large diaspora in the US, Canada, UK. So the challenge is having to do all these deals with all these labels, and get them to allow us to get licenses around the world, and especially in Africa, where we have such a large user base, and we have a lot of leverage because we are very big there. So, you know, we want to get the best deals we can. And it's a tough deal. Doing licensing deals with labels is very, very tough. It takes our team a lot of time, it doesn't move quickly. As I mentioned earlier, we're used to moving quick and being nimble. And then when we work with large companies, it takes a while. So that's a challenge for me being the curator, and the marketer is trying to figure out, you know, how can I get these artists to get more fans getting more fans means I need their music to be available in more regions. So that's certainly a challenge. I think another challenge is just how can we maintain our differentiation? What are our competitive advantages? You know, a lot of times, you know, we're working with to combat these other companies, they have such large budgets and resources. And, you know, we have to fight the urge to try and follow them instead, to create our own path or own blue ocean, which was a book that came out years ago I read that made a big impact on is how can I, you know, create our own blue ocean. And, as opposed to following and trying to catch up, let's have them chase us instead. And we've had some success doing that a lot of the big streaming services have copied us, and a lot of the things that we've done, which is flattering, but annoying, too. So how can we maintain our value proposition, but really fortify it, as opposed to saying, We got to do more things like they're doing because they have so many users, so it must work. Let's do what they're doing. So that's a challenge is to try and say, All right, let's How can we accomplish it a different way? How can we keep this person engaged in the app in a different way? So part of that is things like artist’s guides, orders, and Audiomack World in general, which is sort of a, which is where the artists guide is going to be part of the Audiomack World, which is essentially a blog interview site. That's any streaming service, right? streaming services, utility, you have songs in there, you go to the live streaming service, the same songs are in there. There's not much difference between Spotify and Apple Music, you know, besides some UI, maybe podcasts. But you know, Audiomack World is an entire site that you could read and learn and discover artists without just relying on a playlist algorithm to put it in front of you at the right time. We have this other way, really the old way, because we come out of the blog era. No, we're born out of the blog era. So that was how you discovered music at the end of the arts in the beginning part of the 10s. And we tried to take what was special about that, where you learned to read about artists, and you learned about them through interviews and stuff like that on blogs, and we're taking that and we put that in the utility of the streaming service. So we're trying to just build that out and really showcase our the artists that use us in a different way than other streaming services.


Dan Runcie 34:15

Right, and that point to about them copying you, that's, you know, not surprising at all because I think to your point, you're doing unique things, you're able to move a bit more nimbly, and I'm sure you likely also get acquisition offers, especially in this climate that we're in now. And if you're just like thinking about, you know, where things are, I think even things in terms of the future, whether it's, you know, web three or the metaverse, there's opportunities that you all like we have to be able to make moves in those areas if that's something that's on your roadmap, a bit easier than some of the others because they are larger companies, and it's just tougher for them to pivot in that type of way.


David Ponte 34:55

Yeah, Web 3.0 is interesting. Everyone likes to talk about web three. It's changing the Internet as we know it, slowly, but surely, a lot of it is hype. You know, there's some music streaming services that are Web 3.0 and some up cool ideas, and I like them. And then other ones are probably scams that people are gonna lose a lot of money on, I think one of them, 80% of the tokens are owned by one person. So it's, whatever you see something like that, you have to question, you know, the actual motives of that one person there. No, and they've already done a lot of shady things that I will get into. But other Web 3.0 music companies are doing cool things, and we look at that we go, we might be able to do something like that. Again, if it adds value to artists, it could put money in artists' pockets, and it's like legitimately and the value exchange between the fan and the artist is equal, then you're damn right, we're gonna look into doing that. There's some awesome, exciting things we're looking at, in terms of, again, this concept of supporters, how can we create a real-life experience from something that was born out of the app, if you buy a badge, a supporters badge, maybe that's an NFT, maybe that NFT gets you access into a shop, or it gets you access into, you know, sell merch, or something like that? You know, can you accomplish those things without having to, you know, waste a lot of electricity, maybe, but maybe there's a way to do it cheap. It could be on the blockchain, you know, you could validate the token that someone has or the NFT that they have, and then provide, you know, that gets some access into something or, you know, helps create a community around. I think a lot of the appeal of web three is that it's a community in a discord. Right? All the big ones are in a Discord. You know, people want to be part of a group of like-minded individuals. So it's maybe not because of the blockchain, but because you're in a community, right? So we're trying to think about, how can we accomplish things with does web three, make it more efficient, cheaper, easier, more lucrative than we would employ that, but we're not going to do it just for the press, which some companies are are doing and watch.


Dan Runcie 37:05

Something that I thought about, I remember thinking about this back when I had the conversation with Charlie, and he was first explaining the idea behind supporters is this is a concept that other platforms outside of music have done on the blockchain, but you aren't really shown that, okay, you could still have these dynamics off of it. And I'm not going to get into the whole discussion of if you could do something on versus off-chain, that and you still do it on-chain. But I do think that it highlights that a, if you're going to do something in this space, it should really be either an additive in a way that you're leveraging something that you didn't have like I think there's a very easy connection of thinking of what could a token look like for a supporter of a particular artist like Iran? Like I think there's plenty of things there. But does that enable you to do something that you couldn't currently already do through the current audio Max supporters? Or does allow you to do it better or more efficiently or something to build to the future? I think, I mean, I could imagine that that's the thought process, as opposed to just kind of, oh, let's do a web three thing. And then let's do that. But I've seen it, you know, different pitch decks and all these things. And it's like, I don't know if that's quite the way to do it, but I feel like, for you all, there's a clear through-line there.


David Ponte 38:22

Yeah, there is. And that was well said, I concur with what you just said, you know, there's, do it to add value. Don't do it for the like dog and pony show part of it, where it's like, we're on-trend. We're doing all this Web 3.0. Now we're worth more, you know, one of the things you know, our supporter's badge, you know what I like it if like if you bought a supporters badge, it was actually an NFT. And we minted it for you. And then you could keep that, or you could sell that or trade that. That would be great. I mean, there's obviously a ton of work involved with that. One of the things that I think a lot of companies are wrestling with is that you know, Web 3.0 is inherently decentralized, right? Businesses are not decentralized, they are centralized. And you want to keep it centralized because that's how you control things. And that's ultimately how you're going to make money. But if you put it on the blockchain, and it's decentralized, you don't control it anymore. And that can be a bad thing, can be a good thing, but could be a bad thing, too. And there's risk involved with that. And obviously, companies are about mitigating risk. So I do think there's a couple of things we're looking at that could be really interested in adding a lot of value to artists, you know, being able to scan and an NFT to get into a community. Right? If you buy a supporter's badge, you are now eligible to be messaged by that artist. So like Wiz Khalifa did, he did, did a supporters campaign, people supported him, and he gave them you know, I forgot the amount I think 25% or 20% off of March. So he sent them a message. Thanks for being a supporter. You know, I'm really grateful and you know, by I just came out with a new capsule and you get 20% off so stuff like that, you know, can you then take your NFT or somehow prove that you have that as opposed to putting in a code? You show them that or scan that or do something? There's a lot of potential for sure.


Dan Runcie 40:11

Yeah, I think so if we're just thinking about separating the noise from the opportunity, I think there's still a lot of room to grow with that for sure. But I think we'll get there. I mean, like I've used as an analogy before, I think we're very much still in this, like pets.com era of things. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But that means that there is some grift, there's some good, and I still think we're kind of in this period, where the real champions of this era are still, you know, may still yet to emerge. Some of them may have already started. But we'll see. It's an exciting time for sure. But we get to the tail end. And before we let you go, I know you shared a few things that you already have in store and a few things that you have coming up. But is there anything else coming up soon for Audiomack that you want to plug in or let the tribal audience know about?


David Ponte 40:59

I mentioned how we're going to, one of our goals is in focuses, is to bring Afro beats to America. And we've done this to some degree, we want to keep doing it. You know, all of us here are just such big fans of that type of music and that wave, you know, whether it be Burna Boy, David, Joeboy, Fireboy, Tiwa Savage, Yemi Alade, there's just so many great artists and also from South Africa, we're really big fans of Amapiano and sort of the South African dance music scene. So we want to bring that type of dance music to the US and be at the forefront of that. So there could be a tour coming up with a few artists that are going to be coming maybe to a city near you. Or maybe if you buy a supporter’s badge for these artists, you'll get certain types of access, maybe you get to meet the artist. So we're trying to take what was cool about supporters and about Audionmack and the app, and then turn that into real-life things in the real experiences that are turned into just unforgettable memories for that fan. And great revenue opportunities for that artist. So stay tuned.


Dan Runcie 42:04

That's awesome. Good stuff. I'm excited for you guys. This will be good. We'll definitely keep in touch with you and stay in lock with what Audiomack is doing. But Dave, thanks for coming on. It's been a pleasure.


David Ponte 42:14

Thanks for having me, Dan, and it's, I love what you're doing. I'm the one who puts the podcast on our trending section on audiomack and helps you get more fans like that. So please keep uploading, keep helping people, learn about the music business and the music industry, and I'm thrilled to be on and can't wait to see how my voice sounds when I listen to it later.


Dan Runcie 42:37

No, I appreciate that. No. Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2596 no The Broccoli City Music Festival https://www.trapital.com/podcast Today I’m joined by Brandon McEachern and Marcus Allen, the co-founders of Broccoli City. The music festival makes its return to Washington D.C. on May 7-8 with a stacked lineup that includes Gunna, Summer Walker, Wale, and plenty more stars from the world of hip-hop and R&B. The black-owned promotion had not one, but two events canceled in the past two years. During the forced downtime, festival co-founders Marcus Allen and Brandon McEachern made a conscious decision to not just return for 2022, but come back better than ever.  Specifically, the two wanted to leverage the Broccoli City platform to create black change. Since starting in 2013, the festival has always catered to black people first and foremost. But in 2022, it’s aiming to give its fans better resources well beyond the music grounds. The duo is accomplishing that in the form of an expo that’ll feature job/internship opportunities, health/wellness tools, financial support for small businesses, and forums on criminal justice issues, amongst other things. The expo is one component of what the festival organizers are calling BLK Change Weekend.  The world and the music festival industry have transformed plenty since Broccoli City’s last show in 2019. However, Brandon and Marcus are not just changing with the times — they’re creating it with new initiatives too. Here’s what we covered in this episode of the Trapital podcast:  [0:00] Broccoli City Returns For 2022 [3:10] The Optics Of Bringing Back Broccoli City After Two Years Of Cancellation  [6:34] Artists Charging More For One-Off Festival Than Tour Event  [12:25] Managing Egos When Creating Festival Flyers  [14:31] Changing Nature Of Agents With Talents [19:05] Broccoli City’s Biggest Advantage Over Other Festivals [23:15] Measuring Success For The Festival [25:25] Anticipating Whether An Event Will Succeed Or Won’t  [27:15] How Loyal Are Customers To Certain Festivals?  [29:01] Ongoing Challenges Of Being Black Execs In Music Festival Scene [31:15] Influence Of The Live Nation Partnership  [34:47] Lining Up The Festival With BLK Change Weekend [41:39] What’s In Store For The 2022 Event? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Marcus Allen, Brandon McEachern   This week’s sponsor is ​1-800-NUMBER, a creative agency that produces iconic moments for brand and artists. The studio has collaborated with Lil' Uzi Vert, Future, Isaiah Rashad, 24KGoldn, Nike, Sony, Universal Music Group, TDE, and more. Want to hear how 1-800-NUMBER can help your next project? Book a free 30-min intro chat.   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. ______ Transcription Marcus Allen 00:00 Ain't no better feeling to know coming into the event is going down like that, feeling that morning. Those mornings be like the best mornings because you really, there's two times it's the day you drop in in the morning of the festival that is just there's nothing like those two days coming into that time, and those are moments that you really appreciate and you cherish and we've had mornings that have felt good like that. And we may have some mornings and then feel bad because we always walked into the festival that morning, knowing it was about to be a win. Dan Runcie 00:40 Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Brandon McKay Hearn and Marcus Allen. They're the founders of Broccoli City. It's a two-day music festival that's based in DC that has headliners, Annie Lenox, Summer Walker, they have Lil Durk, Gunna, and great lineup of some of the biggest names in hip hop and R&B. This festival is focused on celebrating Black culture more broadly with the entire weekend they have planned with the BLK change weekend, they have a 5K. And they have other community events that really speak to maybe the topics that be branded and Mark is talking about on this episode, we talk about what it was like for them to get this festival off the ground, given some of the challenges the past two years and how COVID set them back. We also talked about some of the challenges dealing with particular artists. Some of you may remember, there was a pretty public complaint from Wale. He was one of the artists that was frustrated, but they were able to navigate some things with him. So we talked about what it's like dealing with artists, some of their pushback, but also we talked a little bit about the broader Asia landscape. If you've been following Trapital, you know, I've talked about examples of the NBA, where you have an agent like a Rich Paul and Klutch Sports and the influence that they've had making things happen for their stars, while the same thing happens in the music industry with some of these powerful agents that are trying to convince themselves and others that their stars deserve to have headlining spots everywhere. So we talked a little bit about that. We also talked about what it's like for black music festival promoters, and how they are not just pushing this, but also some of the challenges they may have in this industry. We also talked about some of the other economics some of the decisions and what Brandon and Marcus are most excited for and how all that stays afloat. If you are interested at all in the music festival space, what it takes to put one on this is definitely the conversation for you. It was a great chat, it was great to reconnect with them both. Here's my chat with Brandon and Marcus. All right, we got Brandon, Marcus co-founders of broccoli city, y'all are back. COVID set y'all back for a couple of years via y'all like “Nah, we're gonna be here. We're gonna make this happen.” So how does it feel? Brandon McEachern 03:10 Man, it feels good. It feels good to be back. Happy that the world is opening up. You know, for a minute, dead. Damn, we thought that we was gonna be able to come back for 2021. But you know, COVID and the variant had a different plan in mind. You know what I mean? So, so that's what we're happy. We're back this year, though. 2020 to two days. You know, we outside so it's a good look. Dan Runcie 03:32 Yeah, I mean, I feel like it must have been stressful because 2021, once everyone got vaccinated, I'm sure you probably thought the rest of the year was green light, right? Go Let's go. But no, Mari I came through with that touch. Brandon McEachern 03:46 And a couple other festivals got off. You know what I mean? So that was the thing to kind of had to like, dang, you know, like Lollapalooza, the biggest festival, one of the best festivals out, shout out to them. They actually, “Oh, rolling loud.” Got to do this. Shout out to Matt Tyree like saying, “Yeah, we just got the short end of the stick on that side. But it's all good.” Marcus Allen 04:04 Yeah, I mean, I think the other part too, is is that of the festivals that got off, we were the only ones that was focusing in on people of color, right? And so there was a certain optic that was in the air that was like, as our people was the most effective. It was a decision like, you know, do we put all of our people in jeopardy, right? Do we create a big spreader event? And will the world accept this having a big spreader of like, how he makes up somebody else? And like Brandon and I've just decided it just weren't worth it. It wasn't worth the risk on anybody's part. Dan Runcie 04:33 So walk me through the steps of being able to put this back on right because I'm sure some of those same questions you're talking about Marcus some of that trade off? Are people going to be comfortable if there's a super spreader event when we're putting this on? What was that decision process like? Brandon McEachern 04:47 Man so um, I think it number one it was we decided we're gonna push through like we came in at ‘22 saying it's gonna take the world to pretty much be shut down for us not to come back right so I think that was number one. We got on the same page with our partners at Live Nation just in terms of what their plan was for COVID one to 22. And once they gave us the “Hey, listen, we're all full steam ahead. We support and you guys fully. We were locked in.” Brandon, everybody affiliated and connected says Book and talent started booking talent. Man probably back in what November. And it took probably longer than it ever took us to book talent because so many shows were rescheduled for 22. So many people wanted to get back on tour, venues were booked and double booked. And so this year was everything about this year was very much different than what we ever ever had. Dan Runcie 05:41 And on the side of trying to put the talent you mentioned, it took much longer than ever, what were some of those conversations, like, because I'm sure you had interest but was there more hesitancy because of their own discomfort about COVID or was it just their own uncertainty about their schedules? What was that like? Brandon McEachern 05:58 I think that the COVID, the COVID side of it wasn't necessarily the conversation. It was more so the busy runway, like everybody knew that everybody was coming back. So you may want to book artists, but they got to a four or five-city tour that they're trying to push out, you know what I mean? So at the time, they not necessarily thinking about a festival, they trying to do their own, you know, single tour, so it was just having those conversations with agents. And obviously management as well say, hey, you know, this could be a part of your tour day, or whatever the case may be, but I think it was yet again, it really was just a runway, it was just so packed. It was so bad. Dan Runcie 06:34 That makes sense. And I'm curious, what was it like from the price perspective? Because when you're dealing with agents when you're dealing with folks, whether it's the artist or even the venue's like where people item or what was there where they try to be like Fat Joe with the yesterday's price is not today's price.  Brandon McEachern 06:50 Yesterday's price, today's price you got to meet. So I don't know if everybody was just trying to get a bread back from what they had last previously. You don't I mean, those years that we were all, but yeah, prices have definitely went up like the game is crazy, especially when you say that F word. You know, I mean, as soon as you say festival, it changes the dichotomy of the other conversation you didn't mean. Marcus Allen 07:11 Agents was talking about inflation is like what was inflated in the price of people themselves? Like what I don't get, how could there be inflation connected with booking talent?  Brandon McEachern 07:20 You know, is it true? Is it true? You know, that's the cost of playdough, D. That's what you got to do. You know what I mean? That's the cost to play in this game. You know what I'm saying? It's a big cost to so tell my young festival people about to get into this festival game. Just know, these cats is crazy out here. Dan Runcie 07:36 You can you talk a bit more about that PC mention where once you make good Festival, the prices go up, or people's eyes light up, you're freaked out, like why is that? And how much higher are we talking? Brandon McEachern 07:48 Yeah. Now granted, all this stuff has happened like pre-Marcus and Brandon, right? Like we are, I would say we were Allen Iverson before he got into organized ball. You know what I mean? Like, that was us for the longest time. We were independent. I mean, we actually still kind of are independent. But a club show that's different than you know, than a festival day. You know what I mean? A one-off is different yet again, from a festival date. Because I think personally, they start looking at your pockets too. Marcus Allen  08:16 Well, you know, what it is, is the most festivals, in a lot of cases, while there is a capacity, once you reach capacity, that number’s so big. That is crazy, right? So they're thinking about hard cap. So you go play a film, or I can say specifically, we're going to sell 1,500 tickets. When you’re in a festival ground, that's 100,000 square feet, I might be able to sell 20,000 I might be able to sell 50,000 So they plan for that margin, is he gonna sell 20? Or is he gonna sell 50 they trying to get money like you're gonna pay for 50? You know, I'm saying even if you know, you only got to sell to 20. But they ain't trying to hear that. Dan Runcie 08:52 That's real. Because even some of these tours that take place in a theaters or outside venues, there's still a capacity there. But I think people see the flexibility there. But then people obviously see when there's too much flexibility. And there's there could be logistical issues and things like that. The other piece that is a factor of festivals that I would assume is probably part of it, too, is because it's more of a one-off event as opposed to touring. People want to up the price for that event, right. It's almost like paying someone a per diem rate even though that per diem rate would never be their salary for if you normalize it out over a set period, right? Brandon McEachern 09:29 I like the way you broke that down, D. Yeah, yeah, we get and they are, they're in demand. So they can say what I mean, if you got a good album, if you pop in, you can kind of say whatever, you know, and to be honest, a lot of promoters have paid these artists that hefty hefty bag. So they like yo I'm not going back regardless of what your festival may mean to the community or whatever the case may be, you know, so get again you get you got to pay to play. Marcus Allen 09:56 And then the other part of that too is is that in the festival scene is so competitive with the big boys, that they need certain names to be able to headline those festivals. And so they really created a housing bubble. That's really what we end right now. Right? There's literally a bubble. And for only way for it to burst is that as a collective, the Live Nations, the AGs, they got to just simply say to the agents, nah, we not paying it no more, but they keep paying it. They keep paying it. Every time when an agent come with a wild number, somebody is paying it. So it's really in the body… Brandon McEachern 10:34 you make this clear that we're not anti paying people what they were, you know, I mean, let me just say that right now. Like, it's all good, we get it, you know what I mean? Your talents that God gave you that gift, you know, I just got through listening to you, whatever the case may be, I know what this money is doing for your family. You know what I mean? Because at the end of the day, a lot of these artists are getting a lot of a bread from shows, you know, me, I don't know what the streaming stuff is, and all that. But we do understand that these festivals are a bulk of a lot of these artists’ income or whatever the case may be. So we definitely adhere to that. And we pay all of our artists very well. You know what I mean? I don't think nobody would say Oh, broccoli city shortchanged us or anything of that nature, never at all. Never.  Dan Runcie 11:16 That housing market analogy, I think makes perfect sense, right? Because we're seated now across the America, you have people with well-paying jobs do their thing. And then someone else giving out $100,000 above asking price cash off to go buy… Brandon McEachern 11:30 you in the bay, you know what it is? Dan Runcie 11:32 Exactly, exactly. And it's like, I'm sure you probably see that well, where it's like, even if you may not think and artists market rate, is it more than what you're willing to give? Not like you said not they're trying to shortchange everyone, but there's a market for everyone, for sure. But then, if another festival just is willing to put everything behind it, that is the market and then it's like, alright, well, you know, even if I may not agree with where that is, someone is willing to pay that price. So it does reset things. So I'm sure that's probably difficult to some perspective to deal with. But I think another thing too, and maybe part of this is navigating artist’ emotions, or artist feelings is Ivan here. And more recently, there's some artists that have started to complain about how be their David's on that music festival poster or what font size they have and stuff like that. How much do y'all deal with that? Or how much did you deal with that either past years, or this year was brought.  Brandon McEachern  12:25 Man, we've actually never dealt with it before until this year, who dealt with it with somebody and much respect to that somebody as well. But you know, honestly, and it's funny, because he had, again, these conversations weren't had as much as they were had this year, just in terms of the billing placement. And I don't know yet again, if that was something that happened during COVID. And folks was like, hey, you know, when I come back into this game, I want to make sure my joint is bigger than everybody's name, whatever the case may be. But it's actually something that's done when we put the offer out, and we're going back and forth with the agent, you know, they'll say things or management, they'll say, you know, top-line billing or, you know, I mean, like, they'll make it a conversation piece, you know, and usually, we match our eye on that. And it's not a problem that then sometimes the artists may not have been in communication with the management or the agent, and then certain things happen. And I don't know, Dan, if you could put a clip up of what we talked about. Yeah, you know, saying, but definitely, to that tea. Dan Runcie 13:25 Yeah. And I think on that front, you know, I know you're not trying to put anybody on blast by any means. But I'm curious, though, is there some type of trade-off there where there's an artist that is frustrated about something, they're not communicating to you? They just want to put it out on Twitter, and then all of the blog aggregators that say, oh, you know, so and so is upset with Broccoli City, on one hand, it may be a negative thing, but on the other hand, now, you'll have a bunch of press out there. It's like, oh, yeah, well, Broccoli City's back this year, let me go check that out. What was that? Like? Did you notice a bump in sales after that. Brandon McEachern 13:59 Sales, to be honest with you, the sales is already in a very good place. But just in terms of the attention to your point, we definitely got a lot of tension off that. And it became a conversation outside of just our particular event, which I thought was super dope did at least cause conversation between folks in the industry is that to the third, and I think I could have swore I seen somebody else actually just do this. Like yesterday, a particular artist just got mad, I think at Lollapalooza, something about something. So yeah, I mean, they're becoming really vocal about it. But we respect this.  Marcus Allen 14:31 The other thing too, Dan B's has a more personal connection with the agents, right. So just as an outside person, to my degree, right, because I don't really talk to him, but I get firsthand information. I see the emails, a part of it, I believe, is agents positioning themselves because the industry is changing. Right? COVID really made artists readdress how to teams in their business restructure right. You sit down, you've been paying people all this money, you had two years off a year and a half off, you now get a chance to really look at your books, you now get a chance to think about what are you paying people? What are they doing to be paid? And so I believe that folks tightened up their teams, which made a lot of agents on the outside. So obviously, cream rises, right. So the best agents are gonna still be the best agents, but they have to still show value, right? And we may all everybody may be still paying you agents gonna get you your fee, for the most part. So if you get in 100,000, you get 100,000. But if I'm an agent, and I say to you, Dan, listen, I'm gonna get you your bag. But I'm gonna also make sure you get topline billing on every festival. Now, you might know in your heart, hey, no topline billing. But if an agent tell me I can get you top line billing, and 200,000, who you gonna go with? That's the new game, right? It's about the value proposition of what the business is around these artists and how they're thinking about it and the value proposition of each part of their business. You know, I mean, what's the role of everybody? What are you bringing to the table for this fee? I'm paying you. Dan Runcie 16:13 So this is fascinating, but it's not surprising. And I say that because I think about what we see in the NBA, right? There's been plenty polarizing opinions about the impact of Rich Paul and what he's been doing with Klutch Sports. And you can literally insert Ben Simmons in the example that you just brought up, right. But the NBA is a bit more transparent about these things. People either love or hate what Rich Paul is doing. And it's been very actively talked about. I don't know if people outside of the industry music know that dynamic as much with regards to people in music, like who the agent is, that is the equivalent of the Rich Paul or the Klutch Sports in that way, where the client goes there because the client is like, hey, my way or the highway, we are getting you to the Los Angeles Lakers. Watch me do this, right, like, but I'm sure that even though those things aren't public, that's the kind of shit that y'all handling. Yeah, on that front with the headliner piece. You talked about that as well. I know that you've had different headliners each year. But is that something where that does become at least a conversation where let's say you are dealing with a agent who had promised this to their artists, but you're like, hey, we either don't want to have that person as the headliner, or B, we already have it set. Does that, do those conversations stop? Is there continued negotiation there at least for you all, what is that piece of it been like? Brandon McEachern  17:42 Usually Dan, if a person is a headliner, we want them as a headliner, like everybody know that they gonna be the headliner, you know, what I'm saying? Now, I will say for this year, was a little different, because we went the route of having two black women, headliners and Annie Lennox, and Summer Walker issue that we had with a particular somebody, it was a matter of who was more important in a particular area, particular city. It was longevity versus right now impact, right? He's like that kind of deal. You know, I mean, it's like I've been running this race longer. But in the short term, you're bigger. Dan Runcie 18:19 Right. And I mentioned that piece is probably interesting, too. I know conversations we've had offline about this, just given that you are very much wanting to have and celebrate an event that is pushing or promoting black music for black people, and that it doesn't necessarily always 100% line up with festivals that are hip hop festivals that may be happening, although the artists themselves may be black. They aren't necessarily selling or having guests there, or attendees who are black. I think we've seen plenty of examples of that. How does that dynamic and curation shape not just who you reach out to for headliners and others, but also how you think that shapes the makeup and the target audience for the festival? Brandon McEachern  19:05 I mean, I think that I think we don't necessarily go for what's trendy, if that makes sense in terms on the booking side, because we actually do, we do know the culture, right? So if you look at Broccoli sitting in 2016, you know, we had Anderson Paak, you know what I mean? Like if you look at what was that March 2015. You know, we had Kaytranada you know what I mean? And this is yet again years before they become who they become because one of the things that we try to make sure that we do is we listen to the streets, listen to Little Sisters, listen to nieces, listen to…  Marcus Allen 19:38 Even better, go look at the 2020 Grammys, and then go look at the 2020 Brockton city festival lineup that got canceled. Brandon McEachern  19:46 Yeah, you know, LS who does a cat was you know what I mean? We are a new dozer was and then as soon as I'm not gonna say as soon as we booked her, but you know, everybody's starting to see her value. But we saw that way back I heard the streets Definitely like our rules. I knew what time it was with that young lady. And I think that that's one of the things that broccoli city does a hell of a job at, you know, is just really listening and finding that talent early and being able to give them a shot before everybody kind of hops on the bandwagon of that particular person. Dan Runcie 20:17 So that piece there listening, finding the talent and having a year before the mainstream does, how was that piece of change? Because, you know, y'all been doing this for a few years now. In 2015 16, there was no Tiktok, and there wasn't some of these other things, but how has that played a factor in what you're noticing or what you're trying to pick up on where things are heading? Brandon McEachern  20:38 I think it's still the same. I think it's still listening to the youth, you know what I mean? And we do know, when Tiktoks on that, you know, hours and hours and all that and we got money, you know, but he's at the festival. So I think it's just different avenues. At one point, it was all SoundCloud. You know what I mean? And that was kind of like your avenue to the music. So I think it's really just kind of just staying above and making sure that you got an ear to the streets and and not thinking that you know, at all, I think sometimes we get in a space where we think like, oh, we know this, that to the third like no, there's a 13, 14, 15, 16 year old, that's way cooler than you. And that's what you need to be listed. Marcus Allen 21:14 I think also to some of it is time into right, because this is one thing to know the right artists, but if you book them off-season, you hustling backwards, right? So like in this example, we booked a lineup in 28, I guess in November, but we got Durk. Durk was out cycle in 2020. But right i mean 2021. But right now, he's crazy. It looked we looked crazy. I was on a call listening to be talked to somebody and they asked him be How did you know? How did you know it was Durk? Because if you look at the festivals Durk do we know only festival that marks a major name right? And so we look be looking like, you know, like he like he perfect for dictate the future. But it was really just understanding that he was coming. Right and just believing that Durk is a strong artist, and he's coming. Dan Runcie 22:02 Yeah, I think so much of that insight is key, right? That is your job. At the end of the day, you're trying to have these you want to create the memories for fans to be like, oh, yeah, remember, they were on Durk early, we have that. Because then that obviously builds audience and the people that come back year after year after year on that front. And that is something that I've begun to, especially with a festival like yours. Do you have stats or anything on how many of the people are repeat purchasers or the folks that come back as opposed to be able to try to bring the new audience in? And what is that? What are those two groups look like? Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Marcus Allen 22:41 We got a super high super high turnover rate. And I will say not only the super high turnover rate of people who attend the one tear connection to people who went right. So like, Oh, I saw my cousin went two years ago. Now I want to go right. And so I think it's very close to that as well. Like, it's almost like I wasn't ready for it three years ago. Now. I'm ready right now I get it. Dan Runcie 23:03 Right. That makes sense. That makes sense. And for both y'all. What does success look like? So when you're looking back after the festival, of course, there's things like tickets and revenue, but from a high level, what does success look like? Brandon McEachern  23:15 I mean, for me and get again, Marcus, I probably have a different answer because I connect to the world a little different than he does. But for me, it's the stories. It's the stories, obviously, bottom line stuff, right, we'll make sure we hit on my bottom line and chip was good financially, but it's the stories man, like when I hear the stories of be me and my home girl was out there. And did it look like to me that or another thing that is artists having a good time, too. You know what I mean? Like going back to Anderson Paak story, Fox story, I remember him saying that this was the first time he performed in front of this many black people, you know what I mean? Which I thought was crazy and dope at the same time. So it was those type of things for me, they've really claim success on myself.  Marcus Allen 23:57 And I love markets. Brandon McEachern 23:59 Now, I mean, it ain't no better feeling like the money always got to be right. Let's just be clear, right? Like, I mean, that's what we're here for Dan, we're here to make money. But it ain't no better feeling to know, coming into the event is going down like that feeling that morning. Those mornings be like the best mornings because you really, there's two times it's the day you drop it in the morning of the festival. That is just there's nothing like those two days coming into that time. And those are moments that you really appreciate and you cherish and we've had mornings that have felt good like that. And we have some mornings that and feel bad because we always walked into the festival that morning, knowing it was about to be a win. So when you know it's gonna be a win, you really, really appreciate that you really appreciate it. And then once everybody get home safely, and you get back to that hotel, you can look at your partner in the eye and be like, Yeah, that's a great feeling, man. That's it is a great show. Dan Runcie 24:58 That's special. I hear that. Can you talk more about that, actually. So those mornings that for past festivals where maybe you woke up and you weren't sure how it was going to go where you had less certainty? What was it about the planning or leading up to it that made you feel that? And then on the flip side, what is it about those festivals where you're like, Yes, this is going to be the best one yet? What was it about that feeling the morning that made you have that memory.  Marcus Allen 25:25 So this is wild, Dan, because, and Brandon, you might even feel differently about this. But after doing it for enough years, either the people want it or they don't, there's not much that you can do to market it to a sellout. You can make sure it stays in front of people, but when they want it, and if they don't, they don't. And so you spend four months, five months, just talking about what the flyer gonna look like the names gonna be on it. So it's like somebody dropping an album, you know, I'm saying and cats ain't messing with it. That's like, it's hard to accept it. Because you don't like so and slow and slow and slow. Just kidding me, right? And you like, man, we go put these marketing plans together, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. But then you get to the point where you realize they just ain't messing with it. They just ain't messing with it. And so it's like, you know, when you see somebody drop an album, they sell 100,000, the first week, and the second week, they sold 5,000 10,000. Because that nobody wanted to tell nobody, people wasn't talking about it. And so it just dies off. Dan Runcie 26:25 Hmm, that makes sense. Brandon, anything you want to add? Brandon McEachern 26:28 No, I think he hit it right on the head. You gotta mean like, you put a lot of time and effort in this thing. But they don't want it. They don't want it. You got to eat that. You got to eat.  Dan Runcie 26:39 it's fascinating. Because obviously, so much of that is dependent on the line of that you have and how people are feeling about the lineup. And I'm sure this affects every festival people buy tickets because they want to see them. But I'm sure you probably have people that will go to Broccoli City regardless because they just enjoy the vibe of it. And in your opinion, do you think any festival in the country has that benefit where it is if they have whoever is the headliner, just because it's that name? And just because it's that vibe, they will have a dedicated audience or do you think this is something that every festival promoter has to navigate? Brandon McEachern 27:15 I mean, I personally think that there are some festivals out there that just have that right like yet again, the Lollapalooza the world, possibly even like the bottle rocks, you know what I'm saying? Like, and if you notice, I'm not naming any, any urban land festivals, you don't say black land festivals, I would love to see more of that within our communities, in all honesty, like, you know, just kind of loyal to the work that you know, your people are putting in to kind of put something together but you know, that's you just cry. You know, I mean, you preaching to the choir at that point. Right. So it is what it is. But I do think that there are some staple brands, like I said, the Lollapalooza of the world, BottleRock, Marc, I'm pretty sure you got some.  Marcus Allen 27:54 Maybe in terms of black maybe, Only Essence. Oh, yeah, that's for sure. I think it's probably Only Essence that I would say from a black perspective, actually has real draw. Brandon McEachern 28:05 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's something that we working on, right. Like you want to keep giving people you know, it's like, man, we've been doing this for 10 years. Are you gonna trust us? At some point? You know what I mean? So, yeah, but it's just an interesting thing, Dan, just in terms of the urban saw. Dan Runcie 28:18 Yeah, definitely. I feel like essence definitely has that annual Black homecoming vibe to it, that makes it the search for the draw it is. And I think for you, what a lot of your peers who are also black festival promoters in urban music are also in that same boat wanting to build that up as well. And, Brad, I know, we talked a little bit about this, but what has it been like from your perspective? Because obviously, you see that so much of the music from this community is what is making these festivals that money, but you as a both the all as black promoters in this space are likely still experiencing challenges pushing so much of this even though it is your music that is making this entire ecosystem what it is,  Brandon McEachern 29:01 Yeah, no, I mean, it's really just a trip. And at the end of the day, you know, shout out to folks like you, right, that give us somewhat of a platform to kind of, you know, just speak so people just kind of know what we got, I don't even think that people leaving, they don't even think about it, you know, like, maybe those who are in kind of a creative space. Think about it, but I know there's been people who have, you know, man talk shit to me or something at some point, right? But then they start planning something big, and they'll text me like, you know what, be my bad bro. My bad man cuz now I see what you were going through. When I thought that it was just kind of a walleye kind of thing. You know what I'm saying? But it takes a lot of hard work. And it's interesting yet again, going back to dealing with agents from our side on the urban side, and how they may treat me versus how they may treat you know, Jordan and those folks from governors ball you don't I mean, like the tone of the voice. You know, we talked about this a little bit earlier. They're not saying they talk to you crazy, but I don't have some wild conversations with some of these agents. You got to me even going back to the artists, right, and our particular artists that we were speaking of my question is, I wonder what the comrade, I wonder, would he have done that on another festival? You get what I'm saying? Do you feel like you can do that? Because we're so close in terms of camaraderie. It's like, you know how your friends treat you versus somebody who don't know you treat you if that makes sense.  Dan Runcie 30:24 It's a fair question, right? Like, because I'm sure you probably wondered, oh, would they have done that if it was Coachella, one and two, how would people respond? If they were trying to say something about? Yeah, on festival like Coachella,  Brandon McEachern 30:39 It may be as forgiving. I suppose you know what I mean? Or try to get to the bottom of the issue or just snip you. You know, I think we saw that last year, or the year before last with artists saying a certain thing and every festival followed suit, and snip snip, Dan Runcie 30:54 right. It doesn't take much for Word to travel and people to just see how the dynamic is. I know one of the changes for you over the years with this festival has been the partnership with Live Nation urban and what you've been able to do with them. How has it been working with them? And what influence have they had for you all in the more recent years with the festival? Brandon McEachern 31:13 More, more, want to take that?  Marcus Allen 31:15 Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think the number one thing that they've been able to do is take some of the financial risk off of Brandon and I to be able to operate the festival in much more of a business and not a annual, write with every year, we got to figure out how to get back in position to raise capital to find an investor to you know, me, it's just like a consistent cycle. You can't grow a brand, having to do that every single year, because you're starting from scratch every time. Right. And when you're doing that one loss is devastated. You know, me as devastated and as independent. Where, I mean, you think they think they've been in a Lollapalooza been going on for 25, 40, 30 years, you know, I mean, you think they don't want every year, you know, I'm saying like, it's an ebb and flow, like you're gonna lose some years. And so that's what Live Nation gives you the ability to do is have some years to just be normal, right? And not make $2 million at the gate, right? Like, just be normal. Like, yo, we lost money this time. Alright, we're gonna be back next year, and we know we gonna be back. So that's huge. Brandon McEachern 32:21 And I would say, you know, shout out to our partner, Shan Ji, who is, you know, who's been in the game, you know what I mean? And it's rare that you meet, you know, other people that's been through what you've been through, you know, what I mean? So just big shout out to him and his vision and everything that he's built… Marcus Allen 32:35 And let us working to. He lay his work, yeah, let me let us work he don't play to you know, micromanage, he let us work. He wants to see stuff when it goes out. He want to make sure he got some merch, you know, I mean, he want to know who the lineup is he want to help add value in terms of setting the right talent, you know, I mean, he want to make it easy for us, and use his experience, you know, to make it easier for us, you know, as we navigate through this whole thing, Brandon McEachern 32:59 on top of relationships as well, because yet again, this industry is superduper small and like a Dan, right? Like, we know, Dan already from from from back in the day a little bit, even though it was like a year, and I'm trying to go but just imagine Sean and the relationships that he built over the years and to be able to introduce markets into markets and nine to different folds that, you know, makes sense that he has, you know, strong relationships with and then us doing the same, because his folks on the street is different events that he don't know about that maybe we introduced him to. So it's been a fantastic relationship. Dan Runcie 33:31 Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Because at the end of the day, most festivals, even the ones that are household names today lose money in the first few years. So when you're starting from scratch, so much of it depends on who you could get money from investors, how you can get secured, you know, deals in place for all of these things. And unfortunately, it can be harder for folks that look like you to be able to do that here and in this country, right. So when you look at that being able to have the support of a company that has gone through to the fact that they have a division geared towards this, the partnership makes perfect sense. It gives you all the room to do what you could do to build this up, because you know that something is here. And I think that if we just let's say it like it wasn't there, if we just let the festivals that can maintain get to where they are, then there's so much left as an opportunity or not even as an opportunity. There's so much left that isn't given the opportunity because of that. So it's one of those partnerships that I do think makes a ton of sense, at least from the outside for my perspective. Marcus Allen 34:31 for sure. So shout out to Ellen, you for sure. Yeah.  Dan Runcie 34:35 The other thing too, with this year, you lined it up with the blockchain, we get that I know that was part of the promotional push for this. How has that shaped your event planning and what you hope is in store for this weekend? Brandon McEachern 34:47 Yeah, I mean, we're kind of we've always kind of been on that. Right, Dan? So when we talk about when we talk about broccoli city as a whole, right, you know, to say that broccoli City is a music festival. It's kind of disrespectful, right? When you think about Everything that we have done leading up into this point like in 2017, US launching, you know, Broccoli cod, you know, like, I don't know, any other festivals that you can go to that you have a networking opportunity, a chance to maybe hear a Dan talk or hear Bosman St. John talk, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know, no other festivals with that. And if I do, I know them after we started the whole conference outlook, right? And then when you think about a 5k, ruin, right, like, I don't know, any other festivals that's doing 5k. But I think they are something to do do that stuff now. But yet again, it was always a black chain weekend, we think about it, you know what I mean? And yet again, I know that we're one of the only festivals if you think about on a wide scale of them all that gears, the talent, gears, the experience, the host, the music, the all that geared with African Americans, black people of color in mind, first, you know what I'm saying? Like, our people aren't the afterthought, which I think is some of these other events. We may be the afterthought, you know, So yet again, with Blackshades weekend, and really just kind of putting that word out there, it really hasn't changed much of what we already have been doing. And honestly, I think it was important for us to put a name to it, though. So I'm glad that you mentioned that, Dan. And Marc, I don't know if you have any statements on that, please.  Marcus Allen 36:15 Yeah. Now just gonna say that it was important for us to say what it is right, like coming out of COVID, we made a conscious decision that we wanted to use our platform that are right. And at the core, what that meant was we wanted to create black change for black folks. We knew we had corporate partners, we knew we had different folks who've been looking to touch this demo with our sponsorship and partners have always been strong. But now it was time to say like, alright, well, you've been cutting broccoli city a check, how can we do a better job of providing resources opportunities to these attendees? Oh, you want a better platform to do? So you need an expo? Okay, we're going to add an expo to the conference. You know, I mean, like, Oh, you want to talk about health and wellness? Okay, we're gonna add another component to the five cake. Right. So I think, for us, it was always there. But we needed to be attentional going in between to about that. Brandon McEachern 37:09 And to add on the Marcus's point, Dan, not afraid to say black, right. Like, I think a lot of us get to a certain level. And I even said it earlier, right? Like POC like people of color, like, you know, I mean, which is cool, don't get me wrong. But Marcus and I wasn't afraid to say Yo, we really want to do this for black folks. And I don't think it's nothing wrong with that at all. You know what I mean? Like there are specific festivals that may be geared toward the Hispanic consumer, which is completely fine. I don't mean, you'll see no black person there. Marcus Allen 37:37 But I think the key about black the conversation around black chains is that for black chains to happen, it takes more than black people. Right? So let's be clear, right, like black chains happens internally with black people. But you need some white folks, some Spanish folks, some Asian folks to participate right? In some change happening. So this isn't necessarily just a black event. It's just that we focus in on creating change for black people.  Dan Runcie 38:03 That's an important distinction. And I think that to your point, right, there is a great opportunity to celebrate this and not be afraid to call it what it is and have that there are many festivals that hit different groups for that reason, but the fact that you all know your audience know the opportunity you're going to create and in the region that you're doing it it makes perfect sense. Marcus Allen 38:23 Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know what to think on that even if we check out if everybody checks out the quest love documentary to summer soul, and you know what I mean? Everybody didn't get us on that. But it's like, Yo, this shit going on right now too. So, come to broccoli city is see somewhere solid? Actually, there's well, you know, Dan Runcie 38:41 exactly, exactly. Alright, well, before we let you go for the listeners, give us a sense of how you're feeling now going into it. Of course the festivals coming up and you talked a little bit about some of those years. You're feeling good some of those years you're not How are you feeling right now? Brandon McEachern 38:57 feel great. I feel good. You know, say I'm pretty sure Marcus feels great too. I mean, it's lit up you know, I mean, everything from whiz kid to summer Walker to Tim's to Rico nasty to Young Jeezy to snow man like Don Oliver, like what the fuck are we talking about? You know what I mean? Like is split up 2121 dirt? I mean, come on mate, Gunner like come on man. And on top of that, there's so many things going on that weekend black chains weekend and it's in DC I'm feeling Mac you know what I mean? Like it's phenomenal. So I'm super excited. I don't know Mark got anything to add. Marcus Allen 39:31 I feel super excited. It's funny because not that BS job is done. But the bulk of his core ship is on the front end. So now like he like do my job you know me, “What's up now” like so now it's like I'm all back to back production calls experience call venue calls and so speak. Brandon McEachern 39:52 On that though it, me and Marc have had this conversation. It's one of the things that I respect about my partner so much is that Marc hates it when we go somewhere. We're at an event No, like, Oh, this is okay for black of it. You know what I mean? Like, and I love for you to just speak on how you trying to heighten our experience and how you know me, like how you heighten the experience. He's already heightened experience for other LNU properties as well. Marcus Allen 40:14 Honestly, Dan made me you know what it is right? We met at probably one of the most immaculate fundraisers of person could go to, right? Like, let's be honest, right? Like, we saw some stuff right there front of us that was like, Oh, is this happening in real life, like, I gotta go back and watch the video to confirm, I'm watching this with my own eyes. And at the end of the day, like, there's a stigma out there that if you just have the talent, that's enough, and in a love, Coachella spin to $10 million little art, that's more than that's more than festivals hold talent budgets. But that's why to our conversation earlier, why they dropped that lineup with no names, and it'd be sold out. Because people know that there's an experience value associated with that brand. And a lot of our people aren't willing to invest that $10 million, because it may not come back to you year one, that's an amortized cost over 10 years, for you to see that value in that art to spending. And so I think that's what we're getting into now. Right. And that's what the partner show ln gives us the ability to do is to go spend big money on experience, right? And push partners to say, like, “Nah, you can't do that little 10 by 10 Cent,” na, na, if you want to be on site with us, you got to step it up. You got to get your agency's up, like you got to get it right. Brandon McEachern 41:39 And we want to give that experience to our people. Yet again, if this is Black change weekend, it needs to be beautiful. We aren't a culture, we you know what I mean? So even if there's any sponsors, listen to this, any, you know what I mean? Like, get at us. So we can make this experience great, because these are the same people that make your products what it is, these are the same people that make whatever artist that is on top. It was Sinead good to Nika and Rahim that made that artists pot, period, period, you know what I mean? And those are the folks that go to broccoli city, you know what I mean? Even if we talk about ticket prices and things of that nature, Dan, like, come on, bro. We give him folks. 10, 12 phenomenal acts, and our prices ain't nowhere near anyway, I don't even want to get there. That's a whole nother conversation. And we've done that by choice because we want to make sure that we give our people the experience. I had a girl tell me one time, the, I never been to Disney World. But I've been to Broccoli City, though. And I appreciate you for that. You know what I mean? Because we the only festival that maybe she can afford, you know, so I don't know is this such a bigger conversation than what we can do in this 30 to 40 minutes, but it's a real thing. And yet again, I just commend I commend my partner Republican in front of the whole whoever listening, you know, to me for really sticking on that shit, like, not be like, we got to make sure this shit right, bro. And I respect that wholeheartedly because anybody can book artists, if you got the bread, you can go out there and get them. That's fine. You know, now I do hop through hoops to sit and do what I do, you know, I mean, to give myself a pat on the shoulder. But factors, in what way in terms of what we try to do for this experiences is key. And we just want our people to have a magnificent time. So anyway, shout out to that today’s experience. Dan Runcie 43:21 So it's a perfect way to complement both your skill sets where you see the space. And yeah, I mean, Marc, I hear you be already has his work done. He could get excited about stuff. And I know you got a lot on your plate. But I think that you have it in store, you have the partners and like you said, you know, there's an opportunity here, we're no different than a company investing in a startup or investing in artists, many of these festivals did that, you know, level of support do and I think that's where it can happen, especially with something that has the proven audience that you all do, for sure. Marcus Allen 43:52 For sure. Now, a lot have you got a ticket now even be in DC because we got these VIPs on the ice for you waiting when you get here? Dan Runcie 43:59 For sure, John, appreciate y'all. Thank you. Brandon McEachern 44:02 And yet again, Dan, thank you, D man for highlighting what's going on on this side. You know what I mean? From the Chitlin Circuit there right now, you know what I mean? Like, it's been a whole bunch of us pushing and curating our culture and making sure that that we are responsible for getting our artists out there and getting their music out there. You know, I mean, and yet again, I don't want to keep tooting my own horn. But I mean, we had to Willow and Jaden back in the day, you know, I'm saying like we had come over the salons isn't like, tattoos gotta stop. It's me. No, you know what I mean? All these cats that a lot of people were just taking note too, like, we've been pushing these folks out and not for any other reason. And they've been using their gifts, and we want to make sure that we use our platform to get their gifts to the world. You know if that makes sense. So it's a blessing. Appreciate you. Dan Runcie 44:50 A 100%, 100%. Alright, then yeah, anyone else that is listening, you already know about the concert. Make sure go to the website. Y'all want to give a quick plug. Make sure that People listening nowhere to go check it out. Brandon McEachern 45:01 Man go to BCfestival.com. Broccoli City. I'm pretty sure you heard of it. Your cousin heard of it, you know, so make sure you out there. Yeah, make sure you out there because you don't want to see them pitches. You don't want to be on Instagram that day you're not there. That's just not something you want to do. Marcus Allen 45:18 For sure, man, appreciate you again. Damn it. It's love man. This is great. Just to connect with you. Big fan of the podcast. Stay on the Twitter. I'll be back to comment on some of your stuff. But I'd be like yeah, let me chill you know me some of them comments be crazy. But nice is love though. I really appreciate this man. I love the growth that you build in the USA with your platform it and the brand growth man stay down. Anything we could do, man you already know.  Brandon McEachern 45:44 And yet again, and I sorry, do you know me? I'm gonna go on a tangent, but we let go. But that's the ecosystem, right? Yeah. Right. Black Journalists, right? Black curated events, like we all you know what I mean? So we have to do a way better job black executives that you've interviewed before, black agents that you've interviewed before, we got to find a way to make it work, because they're finding out a way to make it work. In all due respect. You know what I mean? So we got to figure it out. But pretty say to Brother, I'm gonna get off my shoe Dan Runcie 46:12 For sure. No, that's a great note to end on. Appreciate you both man. Marcus Allen 46:17 Appreciate you man. Dan Runcie 46:20 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 01 Apr 2022 08:00:00 -0000 The Broccoli City Music Festival full Dan Runcie Today I’m joined by Brandon McEachern and Marcus Allen, the co-founders of Broccoli City. The music festival makes its return to Washington D.C. on May 7-8 with a stacked lineup that includes Gunna, Summer Walker, Wale, and plenty more stars from the world of hip-hop and R&B. The black-owned promotion had not one, but two events canceled in the past two years. During the forced downtime, festival co-founders Marcus Allen and Brandon McEachern made a conscious decision to not just return for 2022, but come back better than ever.  Specifically, the two wanted to leverage the Broccoli City platform to create black change. Since starting in 2013, the festival has always catered to black people first and foremost. But in 2022, it’s aiming to give its fans better resources well beyond the music grounds. The duo is accomplishing that in the form of an expo that’ll feature job/internship opportunities, health/wellness tools, financial support for small businesses, and forums on criminal justice issues, amongst other things. The expo is one component of what the festival organizers are calling BLK Change Weekend.  The world and the music festival industry have transformed plenty since Broccoli City’s last show in 2019. However, Brandon and Marcus are not just changing with the times — they’re creating it with new initiatives too. Here’s what we covered in this episode of the Trapital podcast:  [0:00] Broccoli City Returns For 2022 [3:10] The Optics Of Bringing Back Broccoli City After Two Years Of Cancellation  [6:34] Artists Charging More For One-Off Festival Than Tour Event  [12:25] Managing Egos When Creating Festival Flyers  [14:31] Changing Nature Of Agents With Talents [19:05] Broccoli City’s Biggest Advantage Over Other Festivals [23:15] Measuring Success For The Festival [25:25] Anticipating Whether An Event Will Succeed Or Won’t  [27:15] How Loyal Are Customers To Certain Festivals?  [29:01] Ongoing Challenges Of Being Black Execs In Music Festival Scene [31:15] Influence Of The Live Nation Partnership  [34:47] Lining Up The Festival With BLK Change Weekend [41:39] What’s In Store For The 2022 Event? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Marcus Allen, Brandon McEachern   This week’s sponsor is ​1-800-NUMBER, a creative agency that produces iconic moments for brand and artists. The studio has collaborated with Lil' Uzi Vert, Future, Isaiah Rashad, 24KGoldn, Nike, Sony, Universal Music Group, TDE, and more. Want to hear how 1-800-NUMBER can help your next project? Book a free 30-min intro chat.   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. ______ Transcription Marcus Allen 00:00 Ain't no better feeling to know coming into the event is going down like that, feeling that morning. Those mornings be like the best mornings because you really, there's two times it's the day you drop in in the morning of the festival that is just there's nothing like those two days coming into that time, and those are moments that you really appreciate and you cherish and we've had mornings that have felt good like that. And we may have some mornings and then feel bad because we always walked into the festival that morning, knowing it was about to be a win. Dan Runcie 00:40 Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Brandon McKay Hearn and Marcus Allen. They're the founders of Broccoli City. It's a two-day music festival that's based in DC that has headliners, Annie Lenox, Summer Walker, they have Lil Durk, Gunna, and great lineup of some of the biggest names in hip hop and R&B. This festival is focused on celebrating Black culture more broadly with the entire weekend they have planned with the BLK change weekend, they have a 5K. And they have other community events that really speak to maybe the topics that be branded and Mark is talking about on this episode, we talk about what it was like for them to get this festival off the ground, given some of the challenges the past two years and how COVID set them back. We also talked about some of the challenges dealing with particular artists. Some of you may remember, there was a pretty public complaint from Wale. He was one of the artists that was frustrated, but they were able to navigate some things with him. So we talked about what it's like dealing with artists, some of their pushback, but also we talked a little bit about the broader Asia landscape. If you've been following Trapital, you know, I've talked about examples of the NBA, where you have an agent like a Rich Paul and Klutch Sports and the influence that they've had making things happen for their stars, while the same thing happens in the music industry with some of these powerful agents that are trying to convince themselves and others that their stars deserve to have headlining spots everywhere. So we talked a little bit about that. We also talked about what it's like for black music festival promoters, and how they are not just pushing this, but also some of the challenges they may have in this industry. We also talked about some of the other economics some of the decisions and what Brandon and Marcus are most excited for and how all that stays afloat. If you are interested at all in the music festival space, what it takes to put one on this is definitely the conversation for you. It was a great chat, it was great to reconnect with them both. Here's my chat with Brandon and Marcus. All right, we got Brandon, Marcus co-founders of broccoli city, y'all are back. COVID set y'all back for a couple of years via y'all like “Nah, we're gonna be here. We're gonna make this happen.” So how does it feel? Brandon McEachern 03:10 Man, it feels good. It feels good to be back. Happy that the world is opening up. You know, for a minute, dead. Damn, we thought that we was gonna be able to come back for 2021. But you know, COVID and the variant had a different plan in mind. You know what I mean? So, so that's what we're happy. We're back this year, though. 2020 to two days. You know, we outside so it's a good look. Dan Runcie 03:32 Yeah, I mean, I feel like it must have been stressful because 2021, once everyone got vaccinated, I'm sure you probably thought the rest of the year was green light, right? Go Let's go. But no, Mari I came through with that touch. Brandon McEachern 03:46 And a couple other festivals got off. You know what I mean? So that was the thing to kind of had to like, dang, you know, like Lollapalooza, the biggest festival, one of the best festivals out, shout out to them. They actually, “Oh, rolling loud.” Got to do this. Shout out to Matt Tyree like saying, “Yeah, we just got the short end of the stick on that side. But it's all good.” Marcus Allen 04:04 Yeah, I mean, I think the other part too, is is that of the festivals that got off, we were the only ones that was focusing in on people of color, right? And so there was a certain optic that was in the air that was like, as our people was the most effective. It was a decision like, you know, do we put all of our people in jeopardy, right? Do we create a big spreader event? And will the world accept this having a big spreader of like, how he makes up somebody else? And like Brandon and I've just decided it just weren't worth it. It wasn't worth the risk on anybody's part. Dan Runcie 04:33 So walk me through the steps of being able to put this back on right because I'm sure some of those same questions you're talking about Marcus some of that trade off? Are people going to be comfortable if there's a super spreader event when we're putting this on? What was that decision process like? Brandon McEachern 04:47 Man so um, I think it number one it was we decided we're gonna push through like we came in at ‘22 saying it's gonna take the world to pretty much be shut down for us not to come back right so I think that was number one. We got on the same page with our partners at Live Nation just in terms of what their plan was for COVID one to 22. And once they gave us the “Hey, listen, we're all full steam ahead. We support and you guys fully. We were locked in.” Brandon, everybody affiliated and connected says Book and talent started booking talent. Man probably back in what November. And it took probably longer than it ever took us to book talent because so many shows were rescheduled for 22. So many people wanted to get back on tour, venues were booked and double booked. And so this year was everything about this year was very much different than what we ever ever had. Dan Runcie 05:41 And on the side of trying to put the talent you mentioned, it took much longer than ever, what were some of those conversations, like, because I'm sure you had interest but was there more hesitancy because of their own discomfort about COVID or was it just their own uncertainty about their schedules? What was that like? Brandon McEachern 05:58 I think that the COVID, the COVID side of it wasn't necessarily the conversation. It was more so the busy runway, like everybody knew that everybody was coming back. So you may want to book artists, but they got to a four or five-city tour that they're trying to push out, you know what I mean? So at the time, they not necessarily thinking about a festival, they trying to do their own, you know, single tour, so it was just having those conversations with agents. And obviously management as well say, hey, you know, this could be a part of your tour day, or whatever the case may be, but I think it was yet again, it really was just a runway, it was just so packed. It was so bad. Dan Runcie 06:34 That makes sense. And I'm curious, what was it like from the price perspective? Because when you're dealing with agents when you're dealing with folks, whether it's the artist or even the venue's like where people item or what was there where they try to be like Fat Joe with the yesterday's price is not today's price.  Brandon McEachern 06:50 Yesterday's price, today's price you got to meet. So I don't know if everybody was just trying to get a bread back from what they had last previously. You don't I mean, those years that we were all, but yeah, prices have definitely went up like the game is crazy, especially when you say that F word. You know, I mean, as soon as you say festival, it changes the dichotomy of the other conversation you didn't mean. Marcus Allen 07:11 Agents was talking about inflation is like what was inflated in the price of people themselves? Like what I don't get, how could there be inflation connected with booking talent?  Brandon McEachern 07:20 You know, is it true? Is it true? You know, that's the cost of playdough, D. That's what you got to do. You know what I mean? That's the cost to play in this game. You know what I'm saying? It's a big cost to so tell my young festival people about to get into this festival game. Just know, these cats is crazy out here. Dan Runcie 07:36 You can you talk a bit more about that PC mention where once you make good Festival, the prices go up, or people's eyes light up, you're freaked out, like why is that? And how much higher are we talking? Brandon McEachern 07:48 Yeah. Now granted, all this stuff has happened like pre-Marcus and Brandon, right? Like we are, I would say we were Allen Iverson before he got into organized ball. You know what I mean? Like, that was us for the longest time. We were independent. I mean, we actually still kind of are independent. But a club show that's different than you know, than a festival day. You know what I mean? A one-off is different yet again, from a festival date. Because I think personally, they start looking at your pockets too. Marcus Allen  08:16 Well, you know, what it is, is the most festivals, in a lot of cases, while there is a capacity, once you reach capacity, that number’s so big. That is crazy, right? So they're thinking about hard cap. So you go play a film, or I can say specifically, we're going to sell 1,500 tickets. When you’re in a festival ground, that's 100,000 square feet, I might be able to sell 20,000 I might be able to sell 50,000 So they plan for that margin, is he gonna sell 20? Or is he gonna sell 50 they trying to get money like you're gonna pay for 50? You know, I'm saying even if you know, you only got to sell to 20. But they ain't trying to hear that. Dan Runcie 08:52 That's real. Because even some of these tours that take place in a theaters or outside venues, there's still a capacity there. But I think people see the flexibility there. But then people obviously see when there's too much flexibility. And there's there could be logistical issues and things like that. The other piece that is a factor of festivals that I would assume is probably part of it, too, is because it's more of a one-off event as opposed to touring. People want to up the price for that event, right. It's almost like paying someone a per diem rate even though that per diem rate would never be their salary for if you normalize it out over a set period, right? Brandon McEachern 09:29 I like the way you broke that down, D. Yeah, yeah, we get and they are, they're in demand. So they can say what I mean, if you got a good album, if you pop in, you can kind of say whatever, you know, and to be honest, a lot of promoters have paid these artists that hefty hefty bag. So they like yo I'm not going back regardless of what your festival may mean to the community or whatever the case may be, you know, so get again you get you got to pay to play. Marcus Allen 09:56 And then the other part of that too is is that in the festival scene is so competitive with the big boys, that they need certain names to be able to headline those festivals. And so they really created a housing bubble. That's really what we end right now. Right? There's literally a bubble. And for only way for it to burst is that as a collective, the Live Nations, the AGs, they got to just simply say to the agents, nah, we not paying it no more, but they keep paying it. They keep paying it. Every time when an agent come with a wild number, somebody is paying it. So it's really in the body… Brandon McEachern 10:34 you make this clear that we're not anti paying people what they were, you know, I mean, let me just say that right now. Like, it's all good, we get it, you know what I mean? Your talents that God gave you that gift, you know, I just got through listening to you, whatever the case may be, I know what this money is doing for your family. You know what I mean? Because at the end of the day, a lot of these artists are getting a lot of a bread from shows, you know, me, I don't know what the streaming stuff is, and all that. But we do understand that these festivals are a bulk of a lot of these artists’ income or whatever the case may be. So we definitely adhere to that. And we pay all of our artists very well. You know what I mean? I don't think nobody would say Oh, broccoli city shortchanged us or anything of that nature, never at all. Never.  Dan Runcie 11:16 That housing market analogy, I think makes perfect sense, right? Because we're seated now across the America, you have people with well-paying jobs do their thing. And then someone else giving out $100,000 above asking price cash off to go buy… Brandon McEachern 11:30 you in the bay, you know what it is? Dan Runcie 11:32 Exactly, exactly. And it's like, I'm sure you probably see that well, where it's like, even if you may not think and artists market rate, is it more than what you're willing to give? Not like you said not they're trying to shortchange everyone, but there's a market for everyone, for sure. But then, if another festival just is willing to put everything behind it, that is the market and then it's like, alright, well, you know, even if I may not agree with where that is, someone is willing to pay that price. So it does reset things. So I'm sure that's probably difficult to some perspective to deal with. But I think another thing too, and maybe part of this is navigating artist’ emotions, or artist feelings is Ivan here. And more recently, there's some artists that have started to complain about how be their David's on that music festival poster or what font size they have and stuff like that. How much do y'all deal with that? Or how much did you deal with that either past years, or this year was brought.  Brandon McEachern  12:25 Man, we've actually never dealt with it before until this year, who dealt with it with somebody and much respect to that somebody as well. But you know, honestly, and it's funny, because he had, again, these conversations weren't had as much as they were had this year, just in terms of the billing placement. And I don't know yet again, if that was something that happened during COVID. And folks was like, hey, you know, when I come back into this game, I want to make sure my joint is bigger than everybody's name, whatever the case may be. But it's actually something that's done when we put the offer out, and we're going back and forth with the agent, you know, they'll say things or management, they'll say, you know, top-line billing or, you know, I mean, like, they'll make it a conversation piece, you know, and usually, we match our eye on that. And it's not a problem that then sometimes the artists may not have been in communication with the management or the agent, and then certain things happen. And I don't know, Dan, if you could put a clip up of what we talked about. Yeah, you know, saying, but definitely, to that tea. Dan Runcie 13:25 Yeah. And I think on that front, you know, I know you're not trying to put anybody on blast by any means. But I'm curious, though, is there some type of trade-off there where there's an artist that is frustrated about something, they're not communicating to you? They just want to put it out on Twitter, and then all of the blog aggregators that say, oh, you know, so and so is upset with Broccoli City, on one hand, it may be a negative thing, but on the other hand, now, you'll have a bunch of press out there. It's like, oh, yeah, well, Broccoli City's back this year, let me go check that out. What was that? Like? Did you notice a bump in sales after that. Brandon McEachern 13:59 Sales, to be honest with you, the sales is already in a very good place. But just in terms of the attention to your point, we definitely got a lot of tension off that. And it became a conversation outside of just our particular event, which I thought was super dope did at least cause conversation between folks in the industry is that to the third, and I think I could have swore I seen somebody else actually just do this. Like yesterday, a particular artist just got mad, I think at Lollapalooza, something about something. So yeah, I mean, they're becoming really vocal about it. But we respect this.  Marcus Allen 14:31 The other thing too, Dan B's has a more personal connection with the agents, right. So just as an outside person, to my degree, right, because I don't really talk to him, but I get firsthand information. I see the emails, a part of it, I believe, is agents positioning themselves because the industry is changing. Right? COVID really made artists readdress how to teams in their business restructure right. You sit down, you've been paying people all this money, you had two years off a year and a half off, you now get a chance to really look at your books, you now get a chance to think about what are you paying people? What are they doing to be paid? And so I believe that folks tightened up their teams, which made a lot of agents on the outside. So obviously, cream rises, right. So the best agents are gonna still be the best agents, but they have to still show value, right? And we may all everybody may be still paying you agents gonna get you your fee, for the most part. So if you get in 100,000, you get 100,000. But if I'm an agent, and I say to you, Dan, listen, I'm gonna get you your bag. But I'm gonna also make sure you get topline billing on every festival. Now, you might know in your heart, hey, no topline billing. But if an agent tell me I can get you top line billing, and 200,000, who you gonna go with? That's the new game, right? It's about the value proposition of what the business is around these artists and how they're thinking about it and the value proposition of each part of their business. You know, I mean, what's the role of everybody? What are you bringing to the table for this fee? I'm paying you. Dan Runcie 16:13 So this is fascinating, but it's not surprising. And I say that because I think about what we see in the NBA, right? There's been plenty polarizing opinions about the impact of Rich Paul and what he's been doing with Klutch Sports. And you can literally insert Ben Simmons in the example that you just brought up, right. But the NBA is a bit more transparent about these things. People either love or hate what Rich Paul is doing. And it's been very actively talked about. I don't know if people outside of the industry music know that dynamic as much with regards to people in music, like who the agent is, that is the equivalent of the Rich Paul or the Klutch Sports in that way, where the client goes there because the client is like, hey, my way or the highway, we are getting you to the Los Angeles Lakers. Watch me do this, right, like, but I'm sure that even though those things aren't public, that's the kind of shit that y'all handling. Yeah, on that front with the headliner piece. You talked about that as well. I know that you've had different headliners each year. But is that something where that does become at least a conversation where let's say you are dealing with a agent who had promised this to their artists, but you're like, hey, we either don't want to have that person as the headliner, or B, we already have it set. Does that, do those conversations stop? Is there continued negotiation there at least for you all, what is that piece of it been like? Brandon McEachern  17:42 Usually Dan, if a person is a headliner, we want them as a headliner, like everybody know that they gonna be the headliner, you know, what I'm saying? Now, I will say for this year, was a little different, because we went the route of having two black women, headliners and Annie Lennox, and Summer Walker issue that we had with a particular somebody, it was a matter of who was more important in a particular area, particular city. It was longevity versus right now impact, right? He's like that kind of deal. You know, I mean, it's like I've been running this race longer. But in the short term, you're bigger. Dan Runcie 18:19 Right. And I mentioned that piece is probably interesting, too. I know conversations we've had offline about this, just given that you are very much wanting to have and celebrate an event that is pushing or promoting black music for black people, and that it doesn't necessarily always 100% line up with festivals that are hip hop festivals that may be happening, although the artists themselves may be black. They aren't necessarily selling or having guests there, or attendees who are black. I think we've seen plenty of examples of that. How does that dynamic and curation shape not just who you reach out to for headliners and others, but also how you think that shapes the makeup and the target audience for the festival? Brandon McEachern  19:05 I mean, I think that I think we don't necessarily go for what's trendy, if that makes sense in terms on the booking side, because we actually do, we do know the culture, right? So if you look at Broccoli sitting in 2016, you know, we had Anderson Paak, you know what I mean? Like if you look at what was that March 2015. You know, we had Kaytranada you know what I mean? And this is yet again years before they become who they become because one of the things that we try to make sure that we do is we listen to the streets, listen to Little Sisters, listen to nieces, listen to…  Marcus Allen 19:38 Even better, go look at the 2020 Grammys, and then go look at the 2020 Brockton city festival lineup that got canceled. Brandon McEachern  19:46 Yeah, you know, LS who does a cat was you know what I mean? We are a new dozer was and then as soon as I'm not gonna say as soon as we booked her, but you know, everybody's starting to see her value. But we saw that way back I heard the streets Definitely like our rules. I knew what time it was with that young lady. And I think that that's one of the things that broccoli city does a hell of a job at, you know, is just really listening and finding that talent early and being able to give them a shot before everybody kind of hops on the bandwagon of that particular person. Dan Runcie 20:17 So that piece there listening, finding the talent and having a year before the mainstream does, how was that piece of change? Because, you know, y'all been doing this for a few years now. In 2015 16, there was no Tiktok, and there wasn't some of these other things, but how has that played a factor in what you're noticing or what you're trying to pick up on where things are heading? Brandon McEachern  20:38 I think it's still the same. I think it's still listening to the youth, you know what I mean? And we do know, when Tiktoks on that, you know, hours and hours and all that and we got money, you know, but he's at the festival. So I think it's just different avenues. At one point, it was all SoundCloud. You know what I mean? And that was kind of like your avenue to the music. So I think it's really just kind of just staying above and making sure that you got an ear to the streets and and not thinking that you know, at all, I think sometimes we get in a space where we think like, oh, we know this, that to the third like no, there's a 13, 14, 15, 16 year old, that's way cooler than you. And that's what you need to be listed. Marcus Allen 21:14 I think also to some of it is time into right, because this is one thing to know the right artists, but if you book them off-season, you hustling backwards, right? So like in this example, we booked a lineup in 28, I guess in November, but we got Durk. Durk was out cycle in 2020. But right i mean 2021. But right now, he's crazy. It looked we looked crazy. I was on a call listening to be talked to somebody and they asked him be How did you know? How did you know it was Durk? Because if you look at the festivals Durk do we know only festival that marks a major name right? And so we look be looking like, you know, like he like he perfect for dictate the future. But it was really just understanding that he was coming. Right and just believing that Durk is a strong artist, and he's coming. Dan Runcie 22:02 Yeah, I think so much of that insight is key, right? That is your job. At the end of the day, you're trying to have these you want to create the memories for fans to be like, oh, yeah, remember, they were on Durk early, we have that. Because then that obviously builds audience and the people that come back year after year after year on that front. And that is something that I've begun to, especially with a festival like yours. Do you have stats or anything on how many of the people are repeat purchasers or the folks that come back as opposed to be able to try to bring the new audience in? And what is that? What are those two groups look like? Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Marcus Allen 22:41 We got a super high super high turnover rate. And I will say not only the super high turnover rate of people who attend the one tear connection to people who went right. So like, Oh, I saw my cousin went two years ago. Now I want to go right. And so I think it's very close to that as well. Like, it's almost like I wasn't ready for it three years ago. Now. I'm ready right now I get it. Dan Runcie 23:03 Right. That makes sense. That makes sense. And for both y'all. What does success look like? So when you're looking back after the festival, of course, there's things like tickets and revenue, but from a high level, what does success look like? Brandon McEachern  23:15 I mean, for me and get again, Marcus, I probably have a different answer because I connect to the world a little different than he does. But for me, it's the stories. It's the stories, obviously, bottom line stuff, right, we'll make sure we hit on my bottom line and chip was good financially, but it's the stories man, like when I hear the stories of be me and my home girl was out there. And did it look like to me that or another thing that is artists having a good time, too. You know what I mean? Like going back to Anderson Paak story, Fox story, I remember him saying that this was the first time he performed in front of this many black people, you know what I mean? Which I thought was crazy and dope at the same time. So it was those type of things for me, they've really claim success on myself.  Marcus Allen 23:57 And I love markets. Brandon McEachern 23:59 Now, I mean, it ain't no better feeling like the money always got to be right. Let's just be clear, right? Like, I mean, that's what we're here for Dan, we're here to make money. But it ain't no better feeling to know, coming into the event is going down like that feeling that morning. Those mornings be like the best mornings because you really, there's two times it's the day you drop it in the morning of the festival. That is just there's nothing like those two days coming into that time. And those are moments that you really appreciate and you cherish and we've had mornings that have felt good like that. And we have some mornings that and feel bad because we always walked into the festival that morning, knowing it was about to be a win. So when you know it's gonna be a win, you really, really appreciate that you really appreciate it. And then once everybody get home safely, and you get back to that hotel, you can look at your partner in the eye and be like, Yeah, that's a great feeling, man. That's it is a great show. Dan Runcie 24:58 That's special. I hear that. Can you talk more about that, actually. So those mornings that for past festivals where maybe you woke up and you weren't sure how it was going to go where you had less certainty? What was it about the planning or leading up to it that made you feel that? And then on the flip side, what is it about those festivals where you're like, Yes, this is going to be the best one yet? What was it about that feeling the morning that made you have that memory.  Marcus Allen 25:25 So this is wild, Dan, because, and Brandon, you might even feel differently about this. But after doing it for enough years, either the people want it or they don't, there's not much that you can do to market it to a sellout. You can make sure it stays in front of people, but when they want it, and if they don't, they don't. And so you spend four months, five months, just talking about what the flyer gonna look like the names gonna be on it. So it's like somebody dropping an album, you know, I'm saying and cats ain't messing with it. That's like, it's hard to accept it. Because you don't like so and slow and slow and slow. Just kidding me, right? And you like, man, we go put these marketing plans together, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. But then you get to the point where you realize they just ain't messing with it. They just ain't messing with it. And so it's like, you know, when you see somebody drop an album, they sell 100,000, the first week, and the second week, they sold 5,000 10,000. Because that nobody wanted to tell nobody, people wasn't talking about it. And so it just dies off. Dan Runcie 26:25 Hmm, that makes sense. Brandon, anything you want to add? Brandon McEachern 26:28 No, I think he hit it right on the head. You gotta mean like, you put a lot of time and effort in this thing. But they don't want it. They don't want it. You got to eat that. You got to eat.  Dan Runcie 26:39 it's fascinating. Because obviously, so much of that is dependent on the line of that you have and how people are feeling about the lineup. And I'm sure this affects every festival people buy tickets because they want to see them. But I'm sure you probably have people that will go to Broccoli City regardless because they just enjoy the vibe of it. And in your opinion, do you think any festival in the country has that benefit where it is if they have whoever is the headliner, just because it's that name? And just because it's that vibe, they will have a dedicated audience or do you think this is something that every festival promoter has to navigate? Brandon McEachern 27:15 I mean, I personally think that there are some festivals out there that just have that right like yet again, the Lollapalooza the world, possibly even like the bottle rocks, you know what I'm saying? Like, and if you notice, I'm not naming any, any urban land festivals, you don't say black land festivals, I would love to see more of that within our communities, in all honesty, like, you know, just kind of loyal to the work that you know, your people are putting in to kind of put something together but you know, that's you just cry. You know, I mean, you preaching to the choir at that point. Right. So it is what it is. But I do think that there are some staple brands, like I said, the Lollapalooza of the world, BottleRock, Marc, I'm pretty sure you got some.  Marcus Allen 27:54 Maybe in terms of black maybe, Only Essence. Oh, yeah, that's for sure. I think it's probably Only Essence that I would say from a black perspective, actually has real draw. Brandon McEachern 28:05 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's something that we working on, right. Like you want to keep giving people you know, it's like, man, we've been doing this for 10 years. Are you gonna trust us? At some point? You know what I mean? So, yeah, but it's just an interesting thing, Dan, just in terms of the urban saw. Dan Runcie 28:18 Yeah, definitely. I feel like essence definitely has that annual Black homecoming vibe to it, that makes it the search for the draw it is. And I think for you, what a lot of your peers who are also black festival promoters in urban music are also in that same boat wanting to build that up as well. And, Brad, I know, we talked a little bit about this, but what has it been like from your perspective? Because obviously, you see that so much of the music from this community is what is making these festivals that money, but you as a both the all as black promoters in this space are likely still experiencing challenges pushing so much of this even though it is your music that is making this entire ecosystem what it is,  Brandon McEachern 29:01 Yeah, no, I mean, it's really just a trip. And at the end of the day, you know, shout out to folks like you, right, that give us somewhat of a platform to kind of, you know, just speak so people just kind of know what we got, I don't even think that people leaving, they don't even think about it, you know, like, maybe those who are in kind of a creative space. Think about it, but I know there's been people who have, you know, man talk shit to me or something at some point, right? But then they start planning something big, and they'll text me like, you know what, be my bad bro. My bad man cuz now I see what you were going through. When I thought that it was just kind of a walleye kind of thing. You know what I'm saying? But it takes a lot of hard work. And it's interesting yet again, going back to dealing with agents from our side on the urban side, and how they may treat me versus how they may treat you know, Jordan and those folks from governors ball you don't I mean, like the tone of the voice. You know, we talked about this a little bit earlier. They're not saying they talk to you crazy, but I don't have some wild conversations with some of these agents. You got to me even going back to the artists, right, and our particular artists that we were speaking of my question is, I wonder what the comrade, I wonder, would he have done that on another festival? You get what I'm saying? Do you feel like you can do that? Because we're so close in terms of camaraderie. It's like, you know how your friends treat you versus somebody who don't know you treat you if that makes sense.  Dan Runcie 30:24 It's a fair question, right? Like, because I'm sure you probably wondered, oh, would they have done that if it was Coachella, one and two, how would people respond? If they were trying to say something about? Yeah, on festival like Coachella,  Brandon McEachern 30:39 It may be as forgiving. I suppose you know what I mean? Or try to get to the bottom of the issue or just snip you. You know, I think we saw that last year, or the year before last with artists saying a certain thing and every festival followed suit, and snip snip, Dan Runcie 30:54 right. It doesn't take much for Word to travel and people to just see how the dynamic is. I know one of the changes for you over the years with this festival has been the partnership with Live Nation urban and what you've been able to do with them. How has it been working with them? And what influence have they had for you all in the more recent years with the festival? Brandon McEachern 31:13 More, more, want to take that?  Marcus Allen 31:15 Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think the number one thing that they've been able to do is take some of the financial risk off of Brandon and I to be able to operate the festival in much more of a business and not a annual, write with every year, we got to figure out how to get back in position to raise capital to find an investor to you know, me, it's just like a consistent cycle. You can't grow a brand, having to do that every single year, because you're starting from scratch every time. Right. And when you're doing that one loss is devastated. You know, me as devastated and as independent. Where, I mean, you think they think they've been in a Lollapalooza been going on for 25, 40, 30 years, you know, I mean, you think they don't want every year, you know, I'm saying like, it's an ebb and flow, like you're gonna lose some years. And so that's what Live Nation gives you the ability to do is have some years to just be normal, right? And not make $2 million at the gate, right? Like, just be normal. Like, yo, we lost money this time. Alright, we're gonna be back next year, and we know we gonna be back. So that's huge. Brandon McEachern 32:21 And I would say, you know, shout out to our partner, Shan Ji, who is, you know, who's been in the game, you know what I mean? And it's rare that you meet, you know, other people that's been through what you've been through, you know, what I mean? So just big shout out to him and his vision and everything that he's built… Marcus Allen 32:35 And let us working to. He lay his work, yeah, let me let us work he don't play to you know, micromanage, he let us work. He wants to see stuff when it goes out. He want to make sure he got some merch, you know, I mean, he want to know who the lineup is he want to help add value in terms of setting the right talent, you know, I mean, he want to make it easy for us, and use his experience, you know, to make it easier for us, you know, as we navigate through this whole thing, Brandon McEachern 32:59 on top of relationships as well, because yet again, this industry is superduper small and like a Dan, right? Like, we know, Dan already from from from back in the day a little bit, even though it was like a year, and I'm trying to go but just imagine Sean and the relationships that he built over the years and to be able to introduce markets into markets and nine to different folds that, you know, makes sense that he has, you know, strong relationships with and then us doing the same, because his folks on the street is different events that he don't know about that maybe we introduced him to. So it's been a fantastic relationship. Dan Runcie 33:31 Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Because at the end of the day, most festivals, even the ones that are household names today lose money in the first few years. So when you're starting from scratch, so much of it depends on who you could get money from investors, how you can get secured, you know, deals in place for all of these things. And unfortunately, it can be harder for folks that look like you to be able to do that here and in this country, right. So when you look at that being able to have the support of a company that has gone through to the fact that they have a division geared towards this, the partnership makes perfect sense. It gives you all the room to do what you could do to build this up, because you know that something is here. And I think that if we just let's say it like it wasn't there, if we just let the festivals that can maintain get to where they are, then there's so much left as an opportunity or not even as an opportunity. There's so much left that isn't given the opportunity because of that. So it's one of those partnerships that I do think makes a ton of sense, at least from the outside for my perspective. Marcus Allen 34:31 for sure. So shout out to Ellen, you for sure. Yeah.  Dan Runcie 34:35 The other thing too, with this year, you lined it up with the blockchain, we get that I know that was part of the promotional push for this. How has that shaped your event planning and what you hope is in store for this weekend? Brandon McEachern 34:47 Yeah, I mean, we're kind of we've always kind of been on that. Right, Dan? So when we talk about when we talk about broccoli city as a whole, right, you know, to say that broccoli City is a music festival. It's kind of disrespectful, right? When you think about Everything that we have done leading up into this point like in 2017, US launching, you know, Broccoli cod, you know, like, I don't know, any other festivals that you can go to that you have a networking opportunity, a chance to maybe hear a Dan talk or hear Bosman St. John talk, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know, no other festivals with that. And if I do, I know them after we started the whole conference outlook, right? And then when you think about a 5k, ruin, right, like, I don't know, any other festivals that's doing 5k. But I think they are something to do do that stuff now. But yet again, it was always a black chain weekend, we think about it, you know what I mean? And yet again, I know that we're one of the only festivals if you think about on a wide scale of them all that gears, the talent, gears, the experience, the host, the music, the all that geared with African Americans, black people of color in mind, first, you know what I'm saying? Like, our people aren't the afterthought, which I think is some of these other events. We may be the afterthought, you know, So yet again, with Blackshades weekend, and really just kind of putting that word out there, it really hasn't changed much of what we already have been doing. And honestly, I think it was important for us to put a name to it, though. So I'm glad that you mentioned that, Dan. And Marc, I don't know if you have any statements on that, please.  Marcus Allen 36:15 Yeah. Now just gonna say that it was important for us to say what it is right, like coming out of COVID, we made a conscious decision that we wanted to use our platform that are right. And at the core, what that meant was we wanted to create black change for black folks. We knew we had corporate partners, we knew we had different folks who've been looking to touch this demo with our sponsorship and partners have always been strong. But now it was time to say like, alright, well, you've been cutting broccoli city a check, how can we do a better job of providing resources opportunities to these attendees? Oh, you want a better platform to do? So you need an expo? Okay, we're going to add an expo to the conference. You know, I mean, like, Oh, you want to talk about health and wellness? Okay, we're gonna add another component to the five cake. Right. So I think, for us, it was always there. But we needed to be attentional going in between to about that. Brandon McEachern 37:09 And to add on the Marcus's point, Dan, not afraid to say black, right. Like, I think a lot of us get to a certain level. And I even said it earlier, right? Like POC like people of color, like, you know, I mean, which is cool, don't get me wrong. But Marcus and I wasn't afraid to say Yo, we really want to do this for black folks. And I don't think it's nothing wrong with that at all. You know what I mean? Like there are specific festivals that may be geared toward the Hispanic consumer, which is completely fine. I don't mean, you'll see no black person there. Marcus Allen 37:37 But I think the key about black the conversation around black chains is that for black chains to happen, it takes more than black people. Right? So let's be clear, right, like black chains happens internally with black people. But you need some white folks, some Spanish folks, some Asian folks to participate right? In some change happening. So this isn't necessarily just a black event. It's just that we focus in on creating change for black people.  Dan Runcie 38:03 That's an important distinction. And I think that to your point, right, there is a great opportunity to celebrate this and not be afraid to call it what it is and have that there are many festivals that hit different groups for that reason, but the fact that you all know your audience know the opportunity you're going to create and in the region that you're doing it it makes perfect sense. Marcus Allen 38:23 Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know what to think on that even if we check out if everybody checks out the quest love documentary to summer soul, and you know what I mean? Everybody didn't get us on that. But it's like, Yo, this shit going on right now too. So, come to broccoli city is see somewhere solid? Actually, there's well, you know, Dan Runcie 38:41 exactly, exactly. Alright, well, before we let you go for the listeners, give us a sense of how you're feeling now going into it. Of course the festivals coming up and you talked a little bit about some of those years. You're feeling good some of those years you're not How are you feeling right now? Brandon McEachern 38:57 feel great. I feel good. You know, say I'm pretty sure Marcus feels great too. I mean, it's lit up you know, I mean, everything from whiz kid to summer Walker to Tim's to Rico nasty to Young Jeezy to snow man like Don Oliver, like what the fuck are we talking about? You know what I mean? Like is split up 2121 dirt? I mean, come on mate, Gunner like come on man. And on top of that, there's so many things going on that weekend black chains weekend and it's in DC I'm feeling Mac you know what I mean? Like it's phenomenal. So I'm super excited. I don't know Mark got anything to add. Marcus Allen 39:31 I feel super excited. It's funny because not that BS job is done. But the bulk of his core ship is on the front end. So now like he like do my job you know me, “What's up now” like so now it's like I'm all back to back production calls experience call venue calls and so speak. Brandon McEachern 39:52 On that though it, me and Marc have had this conversation. It's one of the things that I respect about my partner so much is that Marc hates it when we go somewhere. We're at an event No, like, Oh, this is okay for black of it. You know what I mean? Like, and I love for you to just speak on how you trying to heighten our experience and how you know me, like how you heighten the experience. He's already heightened experience for other LNU properties as well. Marcus Allen 40:14 Honestly, Dan made me you know what it is right? We met at probably one of the most immaculate fundraisers of person could go to, right? Like, let's be honest, right? Like, we saw some stuff right there front of us that was like, Oh, is this happening in real life, like, I gotta go back and watch the video to confirm, I'm watching this with my own eyes. And at the end of the day, like, there's a stigma out there that if you just have the talent, that's enough, and in a love, Coachella spin to $10 million little art, that's more than that's more than festivals hold talent budgets. But that's why to our conversation earlier, why they dropped that lineup with no names, and it'd be sold out. Because people know that there's an experience value associated with that brand. And a lot of our people aren't willing to invest that $10 million, because it may not come back to you year one, that's an amortized cost over 10 years, for you to see that value in that art to spending. And so I think that's what we're getting into now. Right. And that's what the partner show ln gives us the ability to do is to go spend big money on experience, right? And push partners to say, like, “Nah, you can't do that little 10 by 10 Cent,” na, na, if you want to be on site with us, you got to step it up. You got to get your agency's up, like you got to get it right. Brandon McEachern 41:39 And we want to give that experience to our people. Yet again, if this is Black change weekend, it needs to be beautiful. We aren't a culture, we you know what I mean? So even if there's any sponsors, listen to this, any, you know what I mean? Like, get at us. So we can make this experience great, because these are the same people that make your products what it is, these are the same people that make whatever artist that is on top. It was Sinead good to Nika and Rahim that made that artists pot, period, period, you know what I mean? And those are the folks that go to broccoli city, you know what I mean? Even if we talk about ticket prices and things of that nature, Dan, like, come on, bro. We give him folks. 10, 12 phenomenal acts, and our prices ain't nowhere near anyway, I don't even want to get there. That's a whole nother conversation. And we've done that by choice because we want to make sure that we give our people the experience. I had a girl tell me one time, the, I never been to Disney World. But I've been to Broccoli City, though. And I appreciate you for that. You know what I mean? Because we the only festival that maybe she can afford, you know, so I don't know is this such a bigger conversation than what we can do in this 30 to 40 minutes, but it's a real thing. And yet again, I just commend I commend my partner Republican in front of the whole whoever listening, you know, to me for really sticking on that shit, like, not be like, we got to make sure this shit right, bro. And I respect that wholeheartedly because anybody can book artists, if you got the bread, you can go out there and get them. That's fine. You know, now I do hop through hoops to sit and do what I do, you know, I mean, to give myself a pat on the shoulder. But factors, in what way in terms of what we try to do for this experiences is key. And we just want our people to have a magnificent time. So anyway, shout out to that today’s experience. Dan Runcie 43:21 So it's a perfect way to complement both your skill sets where you see the space. And yeah, I mean, Marc, I hear you be already has his work done. He could get excited about stuff. And I know you got a lot on your plate. But I think that you have it in store, you have the partners and like you said, you know, there's an opportunity here, we're no different than a company investing in a startup or investing in artists, many of these festivals did that, you know, level of support do and I think that's where it can happen, especially with something that has the proven audience that you all do, for sure. Marcus Allen 43:52 For sure. Now, a lot have you got a ticket now even be in DC because we got these VIPs on the ice for you waiting when you get here? Dan Runcie 43:59 For sure, John, appreciate y'all. Thank you. Brandon McEachern 44:02 And yet again, Dan, thank you, D man for highlighting what's going on on this side. You know what I mean? From the Chitlin Circuit there right now, you know what I mean? Like, it's been a whole bunch of us pushing and curating our culture and making sure that that we are responsible for getting our artists out there and getting their music out there. You know, I mean, and yet again, I don't want to keep tooting my own horn. But I mean, we had to Willow and Jaden back in the day, you know, I'm saying like we had come over the salons isn't like, tattoos gotta stop. It's me. No, you know what I mean? All these cats that a lot of people were just taking note too, like, we've been pushing these folks out and not for any other reason. And they've been using their gifts, and we want to make sure that we use our platform to get their gifts to the world. You know if that makes sense. So it's a blessing. Appreciate you. Dan Runcie 44:50 A 100%, 100%. Alright, then yeah, anyone else that is listening, you already know about the concert. Make sure go to the website. Y'all want to give a quick plug. Make sure that People listening nowhere to go check it out. Brandon McEachern 45:01 Man go to BCfestival.com. Broccoli City. I'm pretty sure you heard of it. Your cousin heard of it, you know, so make sure you out there. Yeah, make sure you out there because you don't want to see them pitches. You don't want to be on Instagram that day you're not there. That's just not something you want to do. Marcus Allen 45:18 For sure, man, appreciate you again. Damn it. It's love man. This is great. Just to connect with you. Big fan of the podcast. Stay on the Twitter. I'll be back to comment on some of your stuff. But I'd be like yeah, let me chill you know me some of them comments be crazy. But nice is love though. I really appreciate this man. I love the growth that you build in the USA with your platform it and the brand growth man stay down. Anything we could do, man you already know.  Brandon McEachern 45:44 And yet again, and I sorry, do you know me? I'm gonna go on a tangent, but we let go. But that's the ecosystem, right? Yeah. Right. Black Journalists, right? Black curated events, like we all you know what I mean? So we have to do a way better job black executives that you've interviewed before, black agents that you've interviewed before, we got to find a way to make it work, because they're finding out a way to make it work. In all due respect. You know what I mean? So we got to figure it out. But pretty say to Brother, I'm gonna get off my shoe Dan Runcie 46:12 For sure. No, that's a great note to end on. Appreciate you both man. Marcus Allen 46:17 Appreciate you man. Dan Runcie 46:20 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Today I’m joined by Brandon McEachern and Marcus Allen, the co-founders of Broccoli City. The music festival makes its return to Washington D.C. on May 7-8 with a stacked lineup that includes Gunna, Summer Walker, Wale, and plenty more stars from the world of hip-hop and R&B. The black-owned promotion had not one, but two events canceled in the past two years. During the forced downtime, festival co-founders Marcus Allen and Brandon McEachern made a conscious decision to not just return for 2022, but come back better than ever. 


Specifically, the two wanted to leverage the Broccoli City platform to create black change. Since starting in 2013, the festival has always catered to black people first and foremost. But in 2022, it’s aiming to give its fans better resources well beyond the music grounds. The duo is accomplishing that in the form of an expo that’ll feature job/internship opportunities, health/wellness tools, financial support for small businesses, and forums on criminal justice issues, amongst other things. The expo is one component of what the festival organizers are calling BLK Change Weekend. 


The world and the music festival industry have transformed plenty since Broccoli City’s last show in 2019. However, Brandon and Marcus are not just changing with the times — they’re creating it with new initiatives too. Here’s what we covered in this episode of the Trapital podcast: 


[0:00] Broccoli City Returns For 2022

[3:10] The Optics Of Bringing Back Broccoli City After Two Years Of Cancellation 

[6:34] Artists Charging More For One-Off Festival Than Tour Event 

[12:25] Managing Egos When Creating Festival Flyers 

[14:31] Changing Nature Of Agents With Talents

[19:05] Broccoli City’s Biggest Advantage Over Other Festivals

[23:15] Measuring Success For The Festival

[25:25] Anticipating Whether An Event Will Succeed Or Won’t 

[27:15] How Loyal Are Customers To Certain Festivals? 

[29:01] Ongoing Challenges Of Being Black Execs In Music Festival Scene

[31:15] Influence Of The Live Nation Partnership 

[34:47] Lining Up The Festival With BLK Change Weekend

[41:39] What’s In Store For The 2022 Event?


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Marcus Allen, Brandon McEachern

 

This week’s sponsor is ​1-800-NUMBER, a creative agency that produces iconic moments for brand and artists. The studio has collaborated with Lil' Uzi Vert, Future, Isaiah Rashad, 24KGoldn, Nike, Sony, Universal Music Group, TDE, and more. Want to hear how 1-800-NUMBER can help your next project? Book a free 30-min intro chat.

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.

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Transcription

Marcus Allen 00:00

Ain't no better feeling to know coming into the event is going down like that, feeling that morning. Those mornings be like the best mornings because you really, there's two times it's the day you drop in in the morning of the festival that is just there's nothing like those two days coming into that time, and those are moments that you really appreciate and you cherish and we've had mornings that have felt good like that. And we may have some mornings and then feel bad because we always walked into the festival that morning, knowing it was about to be a win.


Dan Runcie 00:40

Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Brandon McKay Hearn and Marcus Allen. They're the founders of Broccoli City. It's a two-day music festival that's based in DC that has headliners, Annie Lenox, Summer Walker, they have Lil Durk, Gunna, and great lineup of some of the biggest names in hip hop and R&B. This festival is focused on celebrating Black culture more broadly with the entire weekend they have planned with the BLK change weekend, they have a 5K. And they have other community events that really speak to maybe the topics that be branded and Mark is talking about on this episode, we talk about what it was like for them to get this festival off the ground, given some of the challenges the past two years and how COVID set them back. We also talked about some of the challenges dealing with particular artists. Some of you may remember, there was a pretty public complaint from Wale. He was one of the artists that was frustrated, but they were able to navigate some things with him. So we talked about what it's like dealing with artists, some of their pushback, but also we talked a little bit about the broader Asia landscape. If you've been following Trapital, you know, I've talked about examples of the NBA, where you have an agent like a Rich Paul and Klutch Sports and the influence that they've had making things happen for their stars, while the same thing happens in the music industry with some of these powerful agents that are trying to convince themselves and others that their stars deserve to have headlining spots everywhere. So we talked a little bit about that. We also talked about what it's like for black music festival promoters, and how they are not just pushing this, but also some of the challenges they may have in this industry. We also talked about some of the other economics some of the decisions and what Brandon and Marcus are most excited for and how all that stays afloat. If you are interested at all in the music festival space, what it takes to put one on this is definitely the conversation for you. It was a great chat, it was great to reconnect with them both. Here's my chat with Brandon and Marcus. All right, we got Brandon, Marcus co-founders of broccoli city, y'all are back. COVID set y'all back for a couple of years via y'all like “Nah, we're gonna be here. We're gonna make this happen.” So how does it feel?


Brandon McEachern 03:10

Man, it feels good. It feels good to be back. Happy that the world is opening up. You know, for a minute, dead. Damn, we thought that we was gonna be able to come back for 2021. But you know, COVID and the variant had a different plan in mind. You know what I mean? So, so that's what we're happy. We're back this year, though. 2020 to two days. You know, we outside so it's a good look.


Dan Runcie 03:32

Yeah, I mean, I feel like it must have been stressful because 2021, once everyone got vaccinated, I'm sure you probably thought the rest of the year was green light, right? Go Let's go. But no, Mari I came through with that touch.


Brandon McEachern 03:46

And a couple other festivals got off. You know what I mean? So that was the thing to kind of had to like, dang, you know, like Lollapalooza, the biggest festival, one of the best festivals out, shout out to them. They actually, “Oh, rolling loud.” Got to do this. Shout out to Matt Tyree like saying, “Yeah, we just got the short end of the stick on that side. But it's all good.”


Marcus Allen 04:04

Yeah, I mean, I think the other part too, is is that of the festivals that got off, we were the only ones that was focusing in on people of color, right? And so there was a certain optic that was in the air that was like, as our people was the most effective. It was a decision like, you know, do we put all of our people in jeopardy, right? Do we create a big spreader event? And will the world accept this having a big spreader of like, how he makes up somebody else? And like Brandon and I've just decided it just weren't worth it. It wasn't worth the risk on anybody's part.


Dan Runcie 04:33

So walk me through the steps of being able to put this back on right because I'm sure some of those same questions you're talking about Marcus some of that trade off? Are people going to be comfortable if there's a super spreader event when we're putting this on? What was that decision process like?


Brandon McEachern 04:47

Man so um, I think it number one it was we decided we're gonna push through like we came in at ‘22 saying it's gonna take the world to pretty much be shut down for us not to come back right so I think that was number one. We got on the same page with our partners at Live Nation just in terms of what their plan was for COVID one to 22. And once they gave us the “Hey, listen, we're all full steam ahead. We support and you guys fully. We were locked in.” Brandon, everybody affiliated and connected says Book and talent started booking talent. Man probably back in what November. And it took probably longer than it ever took us to book talent because so many shows were rescheduled for 22. So many people wanted to get back on tour, venues were booked and double booked. And so this year was everything about this year was very much different than what we ever ever had.


Dan Runcie 05:41

And on the side of trying to put the talent you mentioned, it took much longer than ever, what were some of those conversations, like, because I'm sure you had interest but was there more hesitancy because of their own discomfort about COVID or was it just their own uncertainty about their schedules? What was that like?


Brandon McEachern 05:58

I think that the COVID, the COVID side of it wasn't necessarily the conversation. It was more so the busy runway, like everybody knew that everybody was coming back. So you may want to book artists, but they got to a four or five-city tour that they're trying to push out, you know what I mean? So at the time, they not necessarily thinking about a festival, they trying to do their own, you know, single tour, so it was just having those conversations with agents. And obviously management as well say, hey, you know, this could be a part of your tour day, or whatever the case may be, but I think it was yet again, it really was just a runway, it was just so packed. It was so bad.


Dan Runcie 06:34

That makes sense. And I'm curious, what was it like from the price perspective? Because when you're dealing with agents when you're dealing with folks, whether it's the artist or even the venue's like where people item or what was there where they try to be like Fat Joe with the yesterday's price is not today's price. 


Brandon McEachern 06:50

Yesterday's price, today's price you got to meet. So I don't know if everybody was just trying to get a bread back from what they had last previously. You don't I mean, those years that we were all, but yeah, prices have definitely went up like the game is crazy, especially when you say that F word. You know, I mean, as soon as you say festival, it changes the dichotomy of the other conversation you didn't mean.


Marcus Allen 07:11

Agents was talking about inflation is like what was inflated in the price of people themselves? Like what I don't get, how could there be inflation connected with booking talent? 


Brandon McEachern 07:20

You know, is it true? Is it true? You know, that's the cost of playdough, D. That's what you got to do. You know what I mean? That's the cost to play in this game. You know what I'm saying? It's a big cost to so tell my young festival people about to get into this festival game. Just know, these cats is crazy out here.


Dan Runcie 07:36

You can you talk a bit more about that PC mention where once you make good Festival, the prices go up, or people's eyes light up, you're freaked out, like why is that? And how much higher are we talking?


Brandon McEachern 07:48

Yeah. Now granted, all this stuff has happened like pre-Marcus and Brandon, right? Like we are, I would say we were Allen Iverson before he got into organized ball. You know what I mean? Like, that was us for the longest time. We were independent. I mean, we actually still kind of are independent. But a club show that's different than you know, than a festival day. You know what I mean? A one-off is different yet again, from a festival date. Because I think personally, they start looking at your pockets too.


Marcus Allen  08:16

Well, you know, what it is, is the most festivals, in a lot of cases, while there is a capacity, once you reach capacity, that number’s so big. That is crazy, right? So they're thinking about hard cap. So you go play a film, or I can say specifically, we're going to sell 1,500 tickets. When you’re in a festival ground, that's 100,000 square feet, I might be able to sell 20,000 I might be able to sell 50,000 So they plan for that margin, is he gonna sell 20? Or is he gonna sell 50 they trying to get money like you're gonna pay for 50? You know, I'm saying even if you know, you only got to sell to 20. But they ain't trying to hear that.


Dan Runcie 08:52

That's real. Because even some of these tours that take place in a theaters or outside venues, there's still a capacity there. But I think people see the flexibility there. But then people obviously see when there's too much flexibility. And there's there could be logistical issues and things like that. The other piece that is a factor of festivals that I would assume is probably part of it, too, is because it's more of a one-off event as opposed to touring. People want to up the price for that event, right. It's almost like paying someone a per diem rate even though that per diem rate would never be their salary for if you normalize it out over a set period, right?


Brandon McEachern 09:29

I like the way you broke that down, D. Yeah, yeah, we get and they are, they're in demand. So they can say what I mean, if you got a good album, if you pop in, you can kind of say whatever, you know, and to be honest, a lot of promoters have paid these artists that hefty hefty bag. So they like yo I'm not going back regardless of what your festival may mean to the community or whatever the case may be, you know, so get again you get you got to pay to play.


Marcus Allen 09:56

And then the other part of that too is is that in the festival scene is so competitive with the big boys, that they need certain names to be able to headline those festivals. And so they really created a housing bubble. That's really what we end right now. Right? There's literally a bubble. And for only way for it to burst is that as a collective, the Live Nations, the AGs, they got to just simply say to the agents, nah, we not paying it no more, but they keep paying it. They keep paying it. Every time when an agent come with a wild number, somebody is paying it. So it's really in the body…


Brandon McEachern 10:34

you make this clear that we're not anti paying people what they were, you know, I mean, let me just say that right now. Like, it's all good, we get it, you know what I mean? Your talents that God gave you that gift, you know, I just got through listening to you, whatever the case may be, I know what this money is doing for your family. You know what I mean? Because at the end of the day, a lot of these artists are getting a lot of a bread from shows, you know, me, I don't know what the streaming stuff is, and all that. But we do understand that these festivals are a bulk of a lot of these artists’ income or whatever the case may be. So we definitely adhere to that. And we pay all of our artists very well. You know what I mean? I don't think nobody would say Oh, broccoli city shortchanged us or anything of that nature, never at all. Never. 


Dan Runcie 11:16

That housing market analogy, I think makes perfect sense, right? Because we're seated now across the America, you have people with well-paying jobs do their thing. And then someone else giving out $100,000 above asking price cash off to go buy…


Brandon McEachern 11:30

you in the bay, you know what it is?


Dan Runcie 11:32

Exactly, exactly. And it's like, I'm sure you probably see that well, where it's like, even if you may not think and artists market rate, is it more than what you're willing to give? Not like you said not they're trying to shortchange everyone, but there's a market for everyone, for sure. But then, if another festival just is willing to put everything behind it, that is the market and then it's like, alright, well, you know, even if I may not agree with where that is, someone is willing to pay that price. So it does reset things. So I'm sure that's probably difficult to some perspective to deal with. But I think another thing too, and maybe part of this is navigating artist’ emotions, or artist feelings is Ivan here. And more recently, there's some artists that have started to complain about how be their David's on that music festival poster or what font size they have and stuff like that. How much do y'all deal with that? Or how much did you deal with that either past years, or this year was brought. 


Brandon McEachern  12:25

Man, we've actually never dealt with it before until this year, who dealt with it with somebody and much respect to that somebody as well. But you know, honestly, and it's funny, because he had, again, these conversations weren't had as much as they were had this year, just in terms of the billing placement. And I don't know yet again, if that was something that happened during COVID. And folks was like, hey, you know, when I come back into this game, I want to make sure my joint is bigger than everybody's name, whatever the case may be. But it's actually something that's done when we put the offer out, and we're going back and forth with the agent, you know, they'll say things or management, they'll say, you know, top-line billing or, you know, I mean, like, they'll make it a conversation piece, you know, and usually, we match our eye on that. And it's not a problem that then sometimes the artists may not have been in communication with the management or the agent, and then certain things happen. And I don't know, Dan, if you could put a clip up of what we talked about. Yeah, you know, saying, but definitely, to that tea.


Dan Runcie 13:25

Yeah. And I think on that front, you know, I know you're not trying to put anybody on blast by any means. But I'm curious, though, is there some type of trade-off there where there's an artist that is frustrated about something, they're not communicating to you? They just want to put it out on Twitter, and then all of the blog aggregators that say, oh, you know, so and so is upset with Broccoli City, on one hand, it may be a negative thing, but on the other hand, now, you'll have a bunch of press out there. It's like, oh, yeah, well, Broccoli City's back this year, let me go check that out. What was that? Like? Did you notice a bump in sales after that.


Brandon McEachern 13:59

Sales, to be honest with you, the sales is already in a very good place. But just in terms of the attention to your point, we definitely got a lot of tension off that. And it became a conversation outside of just our particular event, which I thought was super dope did at least cause conversation between folks in the industry is that to the third, and I think I could have swore I seen somebody else actually just do this. Like yesterday, a particular artist just got mad, I think at Lollapalooza, something about something. So yeah, I mean, they're becoming really vocal about it. But we respect this. 


Marcus Allen 14:31

The other thing too, Dan B's has a more personal connection with the agents, right. So just as an outside person, to my degree, right, because I don't really talk to him, but I get firsthand information. I see the emails, a part of it, I believe, is agents positioning themselves because the industry is changing. Right? COVID really made artists readdress how to teams in their business restructure right. You sit down, you've been paying people all this money, you had two years off a year and a half off, you now get a chance to really look at your books, you now get a chance to think about what are you paying people? What are they doing to be paid? And so I believe that folks tightened up their teams, which made a lot of agents on the outside. So obviously, cream rises, right. So the best agents are gonna still be the best agents, but they have to still show value, right? And we may all everybody may be still paying you agents gonna get you your fee, for the most part. So if you get in 100,000, you get 100,000. But if I'm an agent, and I say to you, Dan, listen, I'm gonna get you your bag. But I'm gonna also make sure you get topline billing on every festival. Now, you might know in your heart, hey, no topline billing. But if an agent tell me I can get you top line billing, and 200,000, who you gonna go with? That's the new game, right? It's about the value proposition of what the business is around these artists and how they're thinking about it and the value proposition of each part of their business. You know, I mean, what's the role of everybody? What are you bringing to the table for this fee? I'm paying you.


Dan Runcie 16:13

So this is fascinating, but it's not surprising. And I say that because I think about what we see in the NBA, right? There's been plenty polarizing opinions about the impact of Rich Paul and what he's been doing with Klutch Sports. And you can literally insert Ben Simmons in the example that you just brought up, right. But the NBA is a bit more transparent about these things. People either love or hate what Rich Paul is doing. And it's been very actively talked about. I don't know if people outside of the industry music know that dynamic as much with regards to people in music, like who the agent is, that is the equivalent of the Rich Paul or the Klutch Sports in that way, where the client goes there because the client is like, hey, my way or the highway, we are getting you to the Los Angeles Lakers. Watch me do this, right, like, but I'm sure that even though those things aren't public, that's the kind of shit that y'all handling. Yeah, on that front with the headliner piece. You talked about that as well. I know that you've had different headliners each year. But is that something where that does become at least a conversation where let's say you are dealing with a agent who had promised this to their artists, but you're like, hey, we either don't want to have that person as the headliner, or B, we already have it set. Does that, do those conversations stop? Is there continued negotiation there at least for you all, what is that piece of it been like?


Brandon McEachern  17:42

Usually Dan, if a person is a headliner, we want them as a headliner, like everybody know that they gonna be the headliner, you know, what I'm saying? Now, I will say for this year, was a little different, because we went the route of having two black women, headliners and Annie Lennox, and Summer Walker issue that we had with a particular somebody, it was a matter of who was more important in a particular area, particular city. It was longevity versus right now impact, right? He's like that kind of deal. You know, I mean, it's like I've been running this race longer. But in the short term, you're bigger.


Dan Runcie 18:19

Right. And I mentioned that piece is probably interesting, too. I know conversations we've had offline about this, just given that you are very much wanting to have and celebrate an event that is pushing or promoting black music for black people, and that it doesn't necessarily always 100% line up with festivals that are hip hop festivals that may be happening, although the artists themselves may be black. They aren't necessarily selling or having guests there, or attendees who are black. I think we've seen plenty of examples of that. How does that dynamic and curation shape not just who you reach out to for headliners and others, but also how you think that shapes the makeup and the target audience for the festival?


Brandon McEachern  19:05

I mean, I think that I think we don't necessarily go for what's trendy, if that makes sense in terms on the booking side, because we actually do, we do know the culture, right? So if you look at Broccoli sitting in 2016, you know, we had Anderson Paak, you know what I mean? Like if you look at what was that March 2015. You know, we had Kaytranada you know what I mean? And this is yet again years before they become who they become because one of the things that we try to make sure that we do is we listen to the streets, listen to Little Sisters, listen to nieces, listen to… 


Marcus Allen 19:38

Even better, go look at the 2020 Grammys, and then go look at the 2020 Brockton city festival lineup that got canceled.


Brandon McEachern  19:46

Yeah, you know, LS who does a cat was you know what I mean? We are a new dozer was and then as soon as I'm not gonna say as soon as we booked her, but you know, everybody's starting to see her value. But we saw that way back I heard the streets Definitely like our rules. I knew what time it was with that young lady. And I think that that's one of the things that broccoli city does a hell of a job at, you know, is just really listening and finding that talent early and being able to give them a shot before everybody kind of hops on the bandwagon of that particular person.


Dan Runcie 20:17

So that piece there listening, finding the talent and having a year before the mainstream does, how was that piece of change? Because, you know, y'all been doing this for a few years now. In 2015 16, there was no Tiktok, and there wasn't some of these other things, but how has that played a factor in what you're noticing or what you're trying to pick up on where things are heading?


Brandon McEachern  20:38

I think it's still the same. I think it's still listening to the youth, you know what I mean? And we do know, when Tiktoks on that, you know, hours and hours and all that and we got money, you know, but he's at the festival. So I think it's just different avenues. At one point, it was all SoundCloud. You know what I mean? And that was kind of like your avenue to the music. So I think it's really just kind of just staying above and making sure that you got an ear to the streets and and not thinking that you know, at all, I think sometimes we get in a space where we think like, oh, we know this, that to the third like no, there's a 13, 14, 15, 16 year old, that's way cooler than you. And that's what you need to be listed.


Marcus Allen 21:14

I think also to some of it is time into right, because this is one thing to know the right artists, but if you book them off-season, you hustling backwards, right? So like in this example, we booked a lineup in 28, I guess in November, but we got Durk. Durk was out cycle in 2020. But right i mean 2021. But right now, he's crazy. It looked we looked crazy. I was on a call listening to be talked to somebody and they asked him be How did you know? How did you know it was Durk? Because if you look at the festivals Durk do we know only festival that marks a major name right? And so we look be looking like, you know, like he like he perfect for dictate the future. But it was really just understanding that he was coming. Right and just believing that Durk is a strong artist, and he's coming.


Dan Runcie 22:02

Yeah, I think so much of that insight is key, right? That is your job. At the end of the day, you're trying to have these you want to create the memories for fans to be like, oh, yeah, remember, they were on Durk early, we have that. Because then that obviously builds audience and the people that come back year after year after year on that front. And that is something that I've begun to, especially with a festival like yours. Do you have stats or anything on how many of the people are repeat purchasers or the folks that come back as opposed to be able to try to bring the new audience in? And what is that? What are those two groups look like? Let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor.


Marcus Allen 22:41

We got a super high super high turnover rate. And I will say not only the super high turnover rate of people who attend the one tear connection to people who went right. So like, Oh, I saw my cousin went two years ago. Now I want to go right. And so I think it's very close to that as well. Like, it's almost like I wasn't ready for it three years ago. Now. I'm ready right now I get it.


Dan Runcie 23:03

Right. That makes sense. That makes sense. And for both y'all. What does success look like? So when you're looking back after the festival, of course, there's things like tickets and revenue, but from a high level, what does success look like?


Brandon McEachern  23:15

I mean, for me and get again, Marcus, I probably have a different answer because I connect to the world a little different than he does. But for me, it's the stories. It's the stories, obviously, bottom line stuff, right, we'll make sure we hit on my bottom line and chip was good financially, but it's the stories man, like when I hear the stories of be me and my home girl was out there. And did it look like to me that or another thing that is artists having a good time, too. You know what I mean? Like going back to Anderson Paak story, Fox story, I remember him saying that this was the first time he performed in front of this many black people, you know what I mean? Which I thought was crazy and dope at the same time. So it was those type of things for me, they've really claim success on myself. 


Marcus Allen 23:57

And I love markets.


Brandon McEachern 23:59

Now, I mean, it ain't no better feeling like the money always got to be right. Let's just be clear, right? Like, I mean, that's what we're here for Dan, we're here to make money. But it ain't no better feeling to know, coming into the event is going down like that feeling that morning. Those mornings be like the best mornings because you really, there's two times it's the day you drop it in the morning of the festival. That is just there's nothing like those two days coming into that time. And those are moments that you really appreciate and you cherish and we've had mornings that have felt good like that. And we have some mornings that and feel bad because we always walked into the festival that morning, knowing it was about to be a win. So when you know it's gonna be a win, you really, really appreciate that you really appreciate it. And then once everybody get home safely, and you get back to that hotel, you can look at your partner in the eye and be like, Yeah, that's a great feeling, man. That's it is a great show.


Dan Runcie 24:58

That's special. I hear that. Can you talk more about that, actually. So those mornings that for past festivals where maybe you woke up and you weren't sure how it was going to go where you had less certainty? What was it about the planning or leading up to it that made you feel that? And then on the flip side, what is it about those festivals where you're like, Yes, this is going to be the best one yet? What was it about that feeling the morning that made you have that memory. 


Marcus Allen 25:25

So this is wild, Dan, because, and Brandon, you might even feel differently about this. But after doing it for enough years, either the people want it or they don't, there's not much that you can do to market it to a sellout. You can make sure it stays in front of people, but when they want it, and if they don't, they don't. And so you spend four months, five months, just talking about what the flyer gonna look like the names gonna be on it. So it's like somebody dropping an album, you know, I'm saying and cats ain't messing with it. That's like, it's hard to accept it. Because you don't like so and slow and slow and slow. Just kidding me, right? And you like, man, we go put these marketing plans together, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. But then you get to the point where you realize they just ain't messing with it. They just ain't messing with it. And so it's like, you know, when you see somebody drop an album, they sell 100,000, the first week, and the second week, they sold 5,000 10,000. Because that nobody wanted to tell nobody, people wasn't talking about it. And so it just dies off.


Dan Runcie 26:25

Hmm, that makes sense. Brandon, anything you want to add?


Brandon McEachern 26:28

No, I think he hit it right on the head. You gotta mean like, you put a lot of time and effort in this thing. But they don't want it. They don't want it. You got to eat that. You got to eat. 


Dan Runcie 26:39

it's fascinating. Because obviously, so much of that is dependent on the line of that you have and how people are feeling about the lineup. And I'm sure this affects every festival people buy tickets because they want to see them. But I'm sure you probably have people that will go to Broccoli City regardless because they just enjoy the vibe of it. And in your opinion, do you think any festival in the country has that benefit where it is if they have whoever is the headliner, just because it's that name? And just because it's that vibe, they will have a dedicated audience or do you think this is something that every festival promoter has to navigate?


Brandon McEachern 27:15

I mean, I personally think that there are some festivals out there that just have that right like yet again, the Lollapalooza the world, possibly even like the bottle rocks, you know what I'm saying? Like, and if you notice, I'm not naming any, any urban land festivals, you don't say black land festivals, I would love to see more of that within our communities, in all honesty, like, you know, just kind of loyal to the work that you know, your people are putting in to kind of put something together but you know, that's you just cry. You know, I mean, you preaching to the choir at that point. Right. So it is what it is. But I do think that there are some staple brands, like I said, the Lollapalooza of the world, BottleRock, Marc, I'm pretty sure you got some. 


Marcus Allen 27:54

Maybe in terms of black maybe, Only Essence. Oh, yeah, that's for sure. I think it's probably Only Essence that I would say from a black perspective, actually has real draw.


Brandon McEachern 28:05

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's something that we working on, right. Like you want to keep giving people you know, it's like, man, we've been doing this for 10 years. Are you gonna trust us? At some point? You know what I mean? So, yeah, but it's just an interesting thing, Dan, just in terms of the urban saw.


Dan Runcie 28:18

Yeah, definitely. I feel like essence definitely has that annual Black homecoming vibe to it, that makes it the search for the draw it is. And I think for you, what a lot of your peers who are also black festival promoters in urban music are also in that same boat wanting to build that up as well. And, Brad, I know, we talked a little bit about this, but what has it been like from your perspective? Because obviously, you see that so much of the music from this community is what is making these festivals that money, but you as a both the all as black promoters in this space are likely still experiencing challenges pushing so much of this even though it is your music that is making this entire ecosystem what it is, 


Brandon McEachern 29:01

Yeah, no, I mean, it's really just a trip. And at the end of the day, you know, shout out to folks like you, right, that give us somewhat of a platform to kind of, you know, just speak so people just kind of know what we got, I don't even think that people leaving, they don't even think about it, you know, like, maybe those who are in kind of a creative space. Think about it, but I know there's been people who have, you know, man talk shit to me or something at some point, right? But then they start planning something big, and they'll text me like, you know what, be my bad bro. My bad man cuz now I see what you were going through. When I thought that it was just kind of a walleye kind of thing. You know what I'm saying? But it takes a lot of hard work. And it's interesting yet again, going back to dealing with agents from our side on the urban side, and how they may treat me versus how they may treat you know, Jordan and those folks from governors ball you don't I mean, like the tone of the voice. You know, we talked about this a little bit earlier. They're not saying they talk to you crazy, but I don't have some wild conversations with some of these agents. You got to me even going back to the artists, right, and our particular artists that we were speaking of my question is, I wonder what the comrade, I wonder, would he have done that on another festival? You get what I'm saying? Do you feel like you can do that? Because we're so close in terms of camaraderie. It's like, you know how your friends treat you versus somebody who don't know you treat you if that makes sense. 


Dan Runcie 30:24

It's a fair question, right? Like, because I'm sure you probably wondered, oh, would they have done that if it was Coachella, one and two, how would people respond? If they were trying to say something about? Yeah, on festival like Coachella, 


Brandon McEachern 30:39

It may be as forgiving. I suppose you know what I mean? Or try to get to the bottom of the issue or just snip you. You know, I think we saw that last year, or the year before last with artists saying a certain thing and every festival followed suit, and snip snip,


Dan Runcie 30:54

right. It doesn't take much for Word to travel and people to just see how the dynamic is. I know one of the changes for you over the years with this festival has been the partnership with Live Nation urban and what you've been able to do with them. How has it been working with them? And what influence have they had for you all in the more recent years with the festival?


Brandon McEachern 31:13

More, more, want to take that? 


Marcus Allen 31:15

Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think the number one thing that they've been able to do is take some of the financial risk off of Brandon and I to be able to operate the festival in much more of a business and not a annual, write with every year, we got to figure out how to get back in position to raise capital to find an investor to you know, me, it's just like a consistent cycle. You can't grow a brand, having to do that every single year, because you're starting from scratch every time. Right. And when you're doing that one loss is devastated. You know, me as devastated and as independent. Where, I mean, you think they think they've been in a Lollapalooza been going on for 25, 40, 30 years, you know, I mean, you think they don't want every year, you know, I'm saying like, it's an ebb and flow, like you're gonna lose some years. And so that's what Live Nation gives you the ability to do is have some years to just be normal, right? And not make $2 million at the gate, right? Like, just be normal. Like, yo, we lost money this time. Alright, we're gonna be back next year, and we know we gonna be back. So that's huge.


Brandon McEachern 32:21

And I would say, you know, shout out to our partner, Shan Ji, who is, you know, who's been in the game, you know what I mean? And it's rare that you meet, you know, other people that's been through what you've been through, you know, what I mean? So just big shout out to him and his vision and everything that he's built…


Marcus Allen 32:35

And let us working to. He lay his work, yeah, let me let us work he don't play to you know, micromanage, he let us work. He wants to see stuff when it goes out. He want to make sure he got some merch, you know, I mean, he want to know who the lineup is he want to help add value in terms of setting the right talent, you know, I mean, he want to make it easy for us, and use his experience, you know, to make it easier for us, you know, as we navigate through this whole thing,


Brandon McEachern 32:59

on top of relationships as well, because yet again, this industry is superduper small and like a Dan, right? Like, we know, Dan already from from from back in the day a little bit, even though it was like a year, and I'm trying to go but just imagine Sean and the relationships that he built over the years and to be able to introduce markets into markets and nine to different folds that, you know, makes sense that he has, you know, strong relationships with and then us doing the same, because his folks on the street is different events that he don't know about that maybe we introduced him to. So it's been a fantastic relationship.


Dan Runcie 33:31

Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Because at the end of the day, most festivals, even the ones that are household names today lose money in the first few years. So when you're starting from scratch, so much of it depends on who you could get money from investors, how you can get secured, you know, deals in place for all of these things. And unfortunately, it can be harder for folks that look like you to be able to do that here and in this country, right. So when you look at that being able to have the support of a company that has gone through to the fact that they have a division geared towards this, the partnership makes perfect sense. It gives you all the room to do what you could do to build this up, because you know that something is here. And I think that if we just let's say it like it wasn't there, if we just let the festivals that can maintain get to where they are, then there's so much left as an opportunity or not even as an opportunity. There's so much left that isn't given the opportunity because of that. So it's one of those partnerships that I do think makes a ton of sense, at least from the outside for my perspective.


Marcus Allen 34:31

for sure. So shout out to Ellen, you for sure. Yeah. 


Dan Runcie 34:35

The other thing too, with this year, you lined it up with the blockchain, we get that I know that was part of the promotional push for this. How has that shaped your event planning and what you hope is in store for this weekend?


Brandon McEachern 34:47

Yeah, I mean, we're kind of we've always kind of been on that. Right, Dan? So when we talk about when we talk about broccoli city as a whole, right, you know, to say that broccoli City is a music festival. It's kind of disrespectful, right? When you think about Everything that we have done leading up into this point like in 2017, US launching, you know, Broccoli cod, you know, like, I don't know, any other festivals that you can go to that you have a networking opportunity, a chance to maybe hear a Dan talk or hear Bosman St. John talk, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know, no other festivals with that. And if I do, I know them after we started the whole conference outlook, right? And then when you think about a 5k, ruin, right, like, I don't know, any other festivals that's doing 5k. But I think they are something to do do that stuff now. But yet again, it was always a black chain weekend, we think about it, you know what I mean? And yet again, I know that we're one of the only festivals if you think about on a wide scale of them all that gears, the talent, gears, the experience, the host, the music, the all that geared with African Americans, black people of color in mind, first, you know what I'm saying? Like, our people aren't the afterthought, which I think is some of these other events. We may be the afterthought, you know, So yet again, with Blackshades weekend, and really just kind of putting that word out there, it really hasn't changed much of what we already have been doing. And honestly, I think it was important for us to put a name to it, though. So I'm glad that you mentioned that, Dan. And Marc, I don't know if you have any statements on that, please. 


Marcus Allen 36:15

Yeah. Now just gonna say that it was important for us to say what it is right, like coming out of COVID, we made a conscious decision that we wanted to use our platform that are right. And at the core, what that meant was we wanted to create black change for black folks. We knew we had corporate partners, we knew we had different folks who've been looking to touch this demo with our sponsorship and partners have always been strong. But now it was time to say like, alright, well, you've been cutting broccoli city a check, how can we do a better job of providing resources opportunities to these attendees? Oh, you want a better platform to do? So you need an expo? Okay, we're going to add an expo to the conference. You know, I mean, like, Oh, you want to talk about health and wellness? Okay, we're gonna add another component to the five cake. Right. So I think, for us, it was always there. But we needed to be attentional going in between to about that.


Brandon McEachern 37:09

And to add on the Marcus's point, Dan, not afraid to say black, right. Like, I think a lot of us get to a certain level. And I even said it earlier, right? Like POC like people of color, like, you know, I mean, which is cool, don't get me wrong. But Marcus and I wasn't afraid to say Yo, we really want to do this for black folks. And I don't think it's nothing wrong with that at all. You know what I mean? Like there are specific festivals that may be geared toward the Hispanic consumer, which is completely fine. I don't mean, you'll see no black person there.


Marcus Allen 37:37

But I think the key about black the conversation around black chains is that for black chains to happen, it takes more than black people. Right? So let's be clear, right, like black chains happens internally with black people. But you need some white folks, some Spanish folks, some Asian folks to participate right? In some change happening. So this isn't necessarily just a black event. It's just that we focus in on creating change for black people. 


Dan Runcie 38:03

That's an important distinction. And I think that to your point, right, there is a great opportunity to celebrate this and not be afraid to call it what it is and have that there are many festivals that hit different groups for that reason, but the fact that you all know your audience know the opportunity you're going to create and in the region that you're doing it it makes perfect sense.


Marcus Allen 38:23

Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know what to think on that even if we check out if everybody checks out the quest love documentary to summer soul, and you know what I mean? Everybody didn't get us on that. But it's like, Yo, this shit going on right now too. So, come to broccoli city is see somewhere solid? Actually, there's well, you know,


Dan Runcie 38:41

exactly, exactly. Alright, well, before we let you go for the listeners, give us a sense of how you're feeling now going into it. Of course the festivals coming up and you talked a little bit about some of those years. You're feeling good some of those years you're not How are you feeling right now?


Brandon McEachern 38:57

feel great. I feel good. You know, say I'm pretty sure Marcus feels great too. I mean, it's lit up you know, I mean, everything from whiz kid to summer Walker to Tim's to Rico nasty to Young Jeezy to snow man like Don Oliver, like what the fuck are we talking about? You know what I mean? Like is split up 2121 dirt? I mean, come on mate, Gunner like come on man. And on top of that, there's so many things going on that weekend black chains weekend and it's in DC I'm feeling Mac you know what I mean? Like it's phenomenal. So I'm super excited. I don't know Mark got anything to add.


Marcus Allen 39:31

I feel super excited. It's funny because not that BS job is done. But the bulk of his core ship is on the front end. So now like he like do my job you know me, “What's up now” like so now it's like I'm all back to back production calls experience call venue calls and so speak.


Brandon McEachern 39:52

On that though it, me and Marc have had this conversation. It's one of the things that I respect about my partner so much is that Marc hates it when we go somewhere. We're at an event No, like, Oh, this is okay for black of it. You know what I mean? Like, and I love for you to just speak on how you trying to heighten our experience and how you know me, like how you heighten the experience. He's already heightened experience for other LNU properties as well.


Marcus Allen 40:14

Honestly, Dan made me you know what it is right? We met at probably one of the most immaculate fundraisers of person could go to, right? Like, let's be honest, right? Like, we saw some stuff right there front of us that was like, Oh, is this happening in real life, like, I gotta go back and watch the video to confirm, I'm watching this with my own eyes. And at the end of the day, like, there's a stigma out there that if you just have the talent, that's enough, and in a love, Coachella spin to $10 million little art, that's more than that's more than festivals hold talent budgets. But that's why to our conversation earlier, why they dropped that lineup with no names, and it'd be sold out. Because people know that there's an experience value associated with that brand. And a lot of our people aren't willing to invest that $10 million, because it may not come back to you year one, that's an amortized cost over 10 years, for you to see that value in that art to spending. And so I think that's what we're getting into now. Right. And that's what the partner show ln gives us the ability to do is to go spend big money on experience, right? And push partners to say, like, “Nah, you can't do that little 10 by 10 Cent,” na, na, if you want to be on site with us, you got to step it up. You got to get your agency's up, like you got to get it right.


Brandon McEachern 41:39

And we want to give that experience to our people. Yet again, if this is Black change weekend, it needs to be beautiful. We aren't a culture, we you know what I mean? So even if there's any sponsors, listen to this, any, you know what I mean? Like, get at us. So we can make this experience great, because these are the same people that make your products what it is, these are the same people that make whatever artist that is on top. It was Sinead good to Nika and Rahim that made that artists pot, period, period, you know what I mean? And those are the folks that go to broccoli city, you know what I mean? Even if we talk about ticket prices and things of that nature, Dan, like, come on, bro. We give him folks. 10, 12 phenomenal acts, and our prices ain't nowhere near anyway, I don't even want to get there. That's a whole nother conversation. And we've done that by choice because we want to make sure that we give our people the experience. I had a girl tell me one time, the, I never been to Disney World. But I've been to Broccoli City, though. And I appreciate you for that. You know what I mean? Because we the only festival that maybe she can afford, you know, so I don't know is this such a bigger conversation than what we can do in this 30 to 40 minutes, but it's a real thing. And yet again, I just commend I commend my partner Republican in front of the whole whoever listening, you know, to me for really sticking on that shit, like, not be like, we got to make sure this shit right, bro. And I respect that wholeheartedly because anybody can book artists, if you got the bread, you can go out there and get them. That's fine. You know, now I do hop through hoops to sit and do what I do, you know, I mean, to give myself a pat on the shoulder. But factors, in what way in terms of what we try to do for this experiences is key. And we just want our people to have a magnificent time. So anyway, shout out to that today’s experience.


Dan Runcie 43:21

So it's a perfect way to complement both your skill sets where you see the space. And yeah, I mean, Marc, I hear you be already has his work done. He could get excited about stuff. And I know you got a lot on your plate. But I think that you have it in store, you have the partners and like you said, you know, there's an opportunity here, we're no different than a company investing in a startup or investing in artists, many of these festivals did that, you know, level of support do and I think that's where it can happen, especially with something that has the proven audience that you all do, for sure.


Marcus Allen 43:52

For sure. Now, a lot have you got a ticket now even be in DC because we got these VIPs on the ice for you waiting when you get here?


Dan Runcie 43:59

For sure, John, appreciate y'all. Thank you.


Brandon McEachern 44:02

And yet again, Dan, thank you, D man for highlighting what's going on on this side. You know what I mean? From the Chitlin Circuit there right now, you know what I mean? Like, it's been a whole bunch of us pushing and curating our culture and making sure that that we are responsible for getting our artists out there and getting their music out there. You know, I mean, and yet again, I don't want to keep tooting my own horn. But I mean, we had to Willow and Jaden back in the day, you know, I'm saying like we had come over the salons isn't like, tattoos gotta stop. It's me. No, you know what I mean? All these cats that a lot of people were just taking note too, like, we've been pushing these folks out and not for any other reason. And they've been using their gifts, and we want to make sure that we use our platform to get their gifts to the world. You know if that makes sense. So it's a blessing. Appreciate you.


Dan Runcie 44:50

A 100%, 100%. Alright, then yeah, anyone else that is listening, you already know about the concert. Make sure go to the website. Y'all want to give a quick plug. Make sure that People listening nowhere to go check it out.


Brandon McEachern 45:01

Man go to BCfestival.com. Broccoli City. I'm pretty sure you heard of it. Your cousin heard of it, you know, so make sure you out there. Yeah, make sure you out there because you don't want to see them pitches. You don't want to be on Instagram that day you're not there. That's just not something you want to do.


Marcus Allen 45:18

For sure, man, appreciate you again. Damn it. It's love man. This is great. Just to connect with you. Big fan of the podcast. Stay on the Twitter. I'll be back to comment on some of your stuff. But I'd be like yeah, let me chill you know me some of them comments be crazy. But nice is love though. I really appreciate this man. I love the growth that you build in the USA with your platform it and the brand growth man stay down. Anything we could do, man you already know. 


Brandon McEachern 45:44

And yet again, and I sorry, do you know me? I'm gonna go on a tangent, but we let go. But that's the ecosystem, right? Yeah. Right. Black Journalists, right? Black curated events, like we all you know what I mean? So we have to do a way better job black executives that you've interviewed before, black agents that you've interviewed before, we got to find a way to make it work, because they're finding out a way to make it work. In all due respect. You know what I mean? So we got to figure it out. But pretty say to Brother, I'm gonna get off my shoe


Dan Runcie 46:12

For sure. No, that's a great note to end on. Appreciate you both man.


Marcus Allen 46:17

Appreciate you man.


Dan Runcie 46:20

If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2908 no Why Podcast Ownership Matters with Brittany Luse and Eric Eddings of “For Colored Nerds” https://www.trapital.com/podcast A lot of creators talk about owning their intellectual property and distribution, but co-hosts of the For Colored Nerds podcast — Eric Eddings and Brittany Luse — actually went and made it happen, by any means necessary. The two left the Spotify-owned Gimlet Media network in 2020, leaving behind The Nod show (and its IP) which they had built up since 2017. As “free agents”, the duo made ownership a mandate in its next podcast deal. Stitcher was happy to oblige, bringing the two together in a homecoming of sorts. Before Gimlet, Eric and Brittany began podcasting with Stitcher which included the first iteration of the For Colored Nerds podcast. Now it’s back in its second form — still with a heavy dose of discourse about the intersection of pop and Black culture, but now with a dash of personal opinions from the two on ongoing issues as they see it. For Colored Nerds is one example of how the media industry is transforming in real-time. While Eric and Brittany got what they wanted, it wasn’t easy. The two joined me on this episode of Trapital to discuss this laborious process that included lawyers and agents — two things most creators aren’t privy to. Here’s everything we discussed in this episode: [3:07] Why Choose Stitcher Over Other Networks?  [5:52] Changing Landscape Of Creator Ownership [9:22] Biggest Barriers To Having A Fair Contract [11:31] Will Future Podcast Networks Embrace Creator Ownership? [18:23] How Does The Podcast Balance What Topics To Discuss On The Show? [22:10] What Makes Podcasting So Special [28:51] The Polarization Of Tyler Perry  [37:06] The Perils Of An “Elitist” Mindset [42:28] Relationship With Present-Day Music Compared To Past Favorites [49:23] Knowing Your Audience This episode is brought to you by Koji, the best “link in bio” tool. It is trusted by Grammy winners, chart-topping hitmakers, and more. Join 185,000+ creators. Check it out for free: koji.to/trapitalpodcast Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Brittany Luse, IG: @bmluse | Eric Eddings, Twitter: @eeddings | For Colored Nerds Podcast, IG & Twitter: @ForColoredNerds     Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands _____ Eric Eddings 00:00 What the industry kind of needs to understand is that people now, like, require that flexibility. Because so many creators understand different parts of the trajectory. Everybody's not necessarily trying to be, you know, at the pinnacle of podcasts or like on the front page of, you know, iTunes every single day. There are different levels. Some people are having a podcast, they want it as a significant companion to maybe something else that they're building. And so they understand what place that podcast could fit into their lives and into their brand or ecosystem. Dan Runcie 00:38 Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. On today's episode, I'm joined by Brittany Luse and Eric Eddings. They're the host of the podcast, For Colored Nerds, which peels back the layers of black culture. I've been following Brittany and Eric's work for a while now, back when they had their podcast on gimlet media, The Nod. And they also had the Quibi Show after that. And they recently relaunched their old podcast, For Colored Nerds. So we talked about that, we talked about the journey and how Brittany and Eric have been so open and transparent about podcast ownership and some of the back and forth challenges that have happened not just with them, but with other podcasters that ultimately what they hope to see in this industry in the future. We also talked a bit more about how they go about thinking of their content, some of the common themes that they'll discuss on the shows, and one of the things that they discuss, which is a topic I've often discussed on Trapital as well is Tyler Perry. If you've read through Apple, you know that I'm more so, talking about Tyler for what he's achieved from a business perspective, which I've always found inspiring and great. But on the content side, it's a little different, because I think many people do have some conflicting opinions about how he's gone about things that he put out, and, but also recognizing that there was an audience that Tyler has unapologetically been willing to serve, and what that means for him as a business leader, and how that obviously has led to his success. So we talked a lot about that.  And we also talked more broadly about hip hop as well. Folks like us, who I think grew up in the 90s and 2000s, and may still resonate with so many of the artists from that era, how do we relate to current day hip hop? And is it our place to relate to some of the current artists? So we talk about that, and a whole lot more. Here's my chat with Brittany and Eric.  All right, today, we got Brittany and Eric from the For Colored Nerds Podcast. I’ve been a big fan. I've been following their work for a while, and also their journey. And before we start, I do just want to say thank you to both of you, because I feel like you've been so open about so much in the podcasting space. And I think a lot of people learned a lot from that. So thank you both it’s much appreciated. Brittany Luse 03:00 Thank you. Eric Eddings 03:01 Thank you for having us. Yeah, it's been a wild ride in this industry. But it's been good.  Dan Runcie 03:07 Definitely. And I know for you that your journey has been well documented, you're back on the podcast that you had started years back with For Colored Nerds. And now you're with Stitcher, and I'd love to start there because I'm sure that you got hit up by a number of different outlets or networks that likely wanted to partner with y'all. What was it about stitcher that made you want to work with them? Eric Eddings 03:31 Wow. I mean, I felt like there was a lot I mean. To your point, we did a bit of the tour, I guess you could say, in terms of meeting with tons of distributors, you know, after our Quibi show kind of wound down after, hell, after Quibi. Went down a rabbit... Brittany Luse 03:47 It happens on the same day. Eric Eddings 03:50 Yeah, exactly. But no, with Stitcher, I think there were a few things that lined up pretty quickly. They were the only ones who who started the conversation, knowing that we were coming in with a desire to own our show, which is funny, because as to your point before, like, we have been very open about like some of the conflicts that we you know, had around pursuing ownership in particular. And so I think like that changed the conversation in a way where we then, actually, could talk more freely and comfortably about what we wanted the show to be, you know, because again, there was not that fear of like, you know, will it be ours? And will we maybe have to make something different, you know, after the fact if we don't own and kind of control that so I think that was like one big piece of it. I'm curious Brittany, like what you would add Brittany Luse 04:37 I mean, a big part of it, too, is like the team. I mean, one of the people that we got to you know, talk with coming into Stitcher when we were just sort of in the initial feeling each other out stage is someone who turned out to be the cousin of someone we met a few years ago and like hit it off with, Natalie Well who's amazing, she's literally just made us feel comfortable from like moment one. Also Peter Clowney, who is, Eric knows this, proper title. I feel terrible because I can't remember anyone's proper title. Because Eric works at Stitcher as an executive, and I am but a lowly, what's the word? I paid a vendor, I'm a vendor. And so I'm not always proven everything happens within a company. Peter Clowney, who is like I think the VP of content at Stitcher, he was the very first editor that I ever had, like podcast editor, like the very first edit. And it is like a term in podcasting, where the team will sit and listen, or be sent a version of an episode, and leave comments and share them with each other in order to make the episode better and get to that next draft. The first time I ever did that, was with Peter Clowney and that was 2015. So, you know, I have this full-circle moment when in 2021, he's the person who's really extending the offer for us to come and join Stitcher. That just felt really, right.  Brittany Luse 05:52 Also, you know, we first launched For Colored nerds with Stitcher, we have an incredible executive producer, Kameel Stanley, who is basically like a legend of public radio in St. Louis and is just a hell of an executive producer. She, I mean, she kept like, the first I think we had her for what, maybe three, four months, when we were first really ramping up, she kept things together, and she kept things moving. Yeah. And she was somebody who we had already, we've been interviewed by before, I think the previous year with regard to rights and ownership and IP and everything like that. She is just a fantastic journalist and just was such an amazing guide. So it was just so amazing to have this experience where we had so many sharp people who we had either met before had a relationship with before or had a meaningful link to coming in. And it just kind of made things feel a lot more familiar. And also to they were just fast. They're just fast. They were like, yeah, they followed up, they were fast. And they were, I don't know, I mean, I think in so many areas of life, like somebody like the person who's just eager to follow up with you and eager to form that connection or cement that relationship. That's usually the person that you want to go with. Dan Runcie 07:02 That makes sense. Yeah, I hear the relationship side of it. I also hear the ownership side of it too. And especially with the way things are shifting now, sometimes it's still so shocking that it is still such a charged or controversial thing for whether it's podcasters writers or creators in any type of shape too, what, I mean, you're coming in, you have a base, you have plenty of leverage, like how is this still one of these discussions where they want 100% of the thing, and there's not even a discussion about shared or what that could look like. And I mean, it's not just, you always see this at the highest levels, whether it's I think, was   Michaela Coel, when she was talking about I May Destroy You when she was going back and forth, whether it was Netflix or HBO on wanting a slice, like, this is something that is clearly a challenge and a difficult thing for people at every scale of this game. Eric Eddings 07:54 I mean, the industry is shifting, and you know, depending upon what side of the Creator versus like, you know, distributor network, you're on, you maybe view how fast that industry is shifting differently. You know? And it's something that I think the industry has to do a better job at understanding. People are more literate about the trials and tribulations and pitfalls that you can run into trying to create something, and trying to create something that like is distributed to other people, wherever podcasts, movies, music, you know, I'm saying like, we all have the same internet, and like, we've all read the stories and the features. And so people know more of what to ask for. And, you know, the reasons they might have received before about why they, you know, could not or maybe should not deserve, like, you know, the rights to their own content are starting to, you know, finally feel frivolous. And so, you know, I think that thing is changing, I think it is still though a game of leverage, and it's still, you know, depends on what you have in your corner, sadly, to be able to kind of push the issue, you know, with the distributor, with just whoever you're partnering with to be able to get what you want. And yeah, there sadly, is still a lot of.. We got reached out to today about this same, this very same issue. And it's that's something that happens fairly frequently. So there's a lot of work that still has to happen. Dan Runcie 09:15 And on that note, is it people reaching out to you asking you for advice to be like, Hey, I know you all want Yes. Any thoughts? Brittany Luse 09:22 Yes. I mean, yeah, emails, text messages, phone calls, DMS, I had somebody reach out to me via text on behalf of one of their friends yesterday, wondering about the same thing. And I mean, there's, you know, we try to give as much advice as we can. But at the end of the day, the best advice you can get in those situations definitely comes from like a legal professional. Typically, those are the people that you want to defer to. We are not we are not those. That's why sometimes I podcast people like what would you guys see what I'm like, You know what, I am not in the business of giving legal advice, but my biggest piece of legal advice is to get a lawyer. But yeah, I mean, obviously I share a little bit more people than that. But yeah, I think because we've been so open, sometimes people that we do not even know will reach out to us out of the blue, just to be like, Hey, this is something that I know that you went through, do you have 5, 10, 15, 30 minutes to talk with me and kind of guide me through this process? I mean, I will say the thing that I always say, which is that these contracts should not be so difficult that a regular person could not pick up and read them. I think that there's obviously how do I put it, I mean, a barrier to being able to have a fair contract is having the financial resources and also the institutional knowledge relationships, to be able to get a lawyer like that something that we did not have, I don't think I know when I first started working at Gimlet back in 2015. I didn't have the financial resources to hire a lawyer. Yeah, it wasn't an option, I wouldn't have known how to find an entertainment lawyer. Because before then, I was working as like, I mean, marketing manager was the title, but that didn't line up with what I was doing at my job. So yeah, I wouldn't have had like the relationships, the understanding, I wouldn't have known how to find an entertainment lawyer. And I definitely didn't have the money coming into working there to have that. So I think that like, you know, there is a certain level of like, eat, we're all being finessed a little bit, by the fact that people have to get not feel like they have to, but really, truly have to have agents and lawyers and money upfront, to be able to spend on having somebody basically be their pitbull, and get into the ring and fight for the contract that they deserve. Dan Runcie 11:31 Yeah, it's interesting with podcasting, specifically, because I look at the music industry, or even with writing to some extent, I have seen a few more of these hybrid models where it's okay, you can release your music on this platform, we offer a little bit more of a distribution push and a little bit more of a network per se than you would get if you just did it solely on your own. But you could still maintain the ownership, we just get, you know, a set cut or whatever it is. And we've seen this in music, whether it's record labels like Empire that started with a similar type of mindset, or some of the others, even with writing, I've started to see some creative things. But with podcasting, specifically, it may be part of it's just, I haven't seen it myself and what I've seen, but I still haven't quite seen that network that is being ready to be as front and center be like, Hey, we're here, if you want to do an exclusive deal, but you maintain your ownership and we do a licensing deal, we could do that. Or if you want to have a set split, this is what our network is known for. I haven't quite seen that same thing in podcasting. And obviously, I know part of the challenge is the value is the ownership that they have because then they can go get sold to whoever, but I think part of me still waiting to see that, like, is that going to be a standard for one of the next, you know, rising networks. Brittany Luse 12:51 We are waiting to see that Eric Eddings 12:56 Everybody's watching. Yeah, I mean, look, there are networks. I mean, even Stitcher, I don't say this, you know, to not trying to be like a corporate shill, but like, you know, we engage a bunch of different types of deals. Yeah, I work as a creative executive there. And, you know, so what that means is like, there are some things that we, you know, own outright, there are some things that stitcher owns outright, there are some things that you know, they license, you know, and just rip the ads, there are some things that you know, are hybrid, I think what you don't want, even that, for its worth is actually can be rare to have all those different types of like deals. But I think in general, what the industry kind of needs to understand is that people now, like, require that flexibility, because, you know, so many creators understand different parts of the trajectory, you know, everybody's not necessarily trying to be, you know, at the pinnacle of, you know, podcasts or like, on the front page of, you know, iTunes every single day, there are different levels, some people are having the podcast, they want it as a significant companion to maybe something else that they're building. And so they understand what place that podcast could fit into their life and into their, you know, brand or ecosystem. And the company that is willing to like, be most flexible to that is going to get that person you know, like, because they're creating that comfort, they're creating that like space to say like, I want to work with you so much of entertainment, what people haven't realized behind the scenes, it's not necessarily I want to work with you, it kind of wants to work for them, you know, and to that degree, like, you know, your contract reflects that. And I'm so excited by the shift that I see kind of happening in all entertainment-related industries. We're seeing a lot more, hell, sports, you know, we just see a lot more creator or athlete lead, you know, like deals but things were basically the power in the leverage is becoming more equal, slowly.  Brittany Luse 14:54 I think the thing that's tricky for me is the deals that are fair and reasonable exist, and I'll say that we received a pretty good one from Stitcher. I mean, like from jump, when we received the contract, it was like, all fit on one page, double triple space. It was mostly plain English. I understood it when I read it. And we felt good about it. And it felt like it was befitting of like, how much air can I put into the show? And who really owns it? And I will say like, it was really nice to get that deal now, but my hope is like, you know, people are like, when will we get there? What do you think 'there' is there for me quote, unquote, there for me is when me and Eric back in 2014, we first started the show would have been handed a deal like the one we got last year in 2021. And so like a or even back in 2017, when we first launched The Nod, me and Eric at that point was been given new contracts. Because then that very clearly showed that was really the DNA it was based off For Colored Nerds, come on a show about Black culture hosted by me and Eric, now we based it off of something else. Are you kidding me? That's what it was. I think that that to me is like when the equity has really gotten there, and it is going to take time, I wish that it didn't take the time it is going to take time.  Brittany Luse 14:54 But even I will say this though, there are people usually like white, a lot of times male. And I was gonna say like, usually they have a large following. But sometimes it's like, I don't even know if that's what's going into the business decision that's being made when somebody you know, offers, like some white guy who has a podcast a bunch of money to be able to, like make that thing forever gives that person a really good deal, or some sort of like exclusive, you know, whatever. There are people who have been getting fair deals all this time. I just would like to see sort of like the bar for that either be lower to just like I say lower, I mean, just like allowing more people in right now the bar is basically like, are you why are you guy? Are you famous? Or like, yes. Do you want to share my microphone, I would like to see sort of rather, I would like to see that avenue broadened. And that's what I mean, when we're there, like Success for me is just like not having to have relationships years in the game, or be like a white guy with a podcast to be able to get access to the type of deal that we have now. Dan Runcie 17:19 Yeah. And I think that framing makes complete sense. Right? When you first started this and had the idea, you should have had this in place. And then further when you're signing a deal with Gimlet or even you know, with Quibi, or whoever. There's enough, not just you know, layman's terms, but there's also just enough commonality that those things can happen. And I think that also makes me think a bit about the show itself. And maybe just some of the slight differences between The Nod and For Colored Nerds, The Nod, at least my impression is always a bit more like, hey, here is the latest thing that is happening right now in black culture. And here's our take on it. Well, let's discuss it, I think For Colored Nerds has that as well. But I think you also mix in some evergreen topics that have always come in which I think I always enjoy hearing. And I'm curious, from your perspective, how has the process been about determining the topics of that balance, because I'm sure there are the evergreen topics that you may want to hit. There are also timely things that likely you may want to dive into. But then you also, you know, have things that you're just personally interested in compared to what you may know, the audience would really want to hear or what you know what drives engagement. So yeah, how was that, balancing that piece of the event for you? Eric Eddings 18:39 You don't know how timely that question is. Because we are always kind of managing our relationship with it. It is a balance. And it's a conversation that is kind of always happening. I think, to start where you did in terms of the comparison, I think how we thought about The Nod is more so we were trying to reflect what we saw. And I think For Colored Nerds is more definitively how we think if that makes any sense. I didn't and I know Brittany, you might disagree, but Yes, just now. Yeah. But when we're thinking about that conversation, basically how we think and how to reflect that to our audience, you know, we are looking at things that like could or either maybe a lot of things start evergreen and become more topical, if that makes any sense. Because also that's kind of how I think our conversations often work we're just kind of talking about things that we've noticed or things that we've seen and they start to kind of build momentum towards like something that could be like on the show and like with it, for example, we consume dating reality shows at an unhealthy clip, we are committed to that genre. And you know, we're always kind of talking about like what we saw how we feel about you know, any given show or episode and it's starting to kind of come to the point, I have this idea that feels like a connects kind of like what I think about all those things, and then bringing like what or, you know, I actually had This idea I was thinking this. And so we start to build that for the episode. And then as we get closer to, you know, having the conversation, we start to realize like, Okay, well, what are the things happening right now that relate to this larger conversation? How can we incorporate that and you know, that changes things as well? So we're always shuffling Jesus, always shuffling our calendar, because that process changes, you know, you might the Evergreen thing might need more time to become a little topical, the topical thing, you know, feel too much like a flash in the pan need to be more evergreen. So, you know, shout out to our producer Alexis, for, you know, really like just kind of rolling with how much of the changes we, you know, sometimes need to make to the schedule. But if we're in conversation with our audience, we want to make sure that we're reacting to that in as healthy a way as possible. Brittany Luse 20:49 Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's tricky. Just because like, on one hand, I don't know podcasting is so interesting in that it is one of the few truly long-form digital media. So you know what I mean? Like, other than maybe, like, reading long-form journalism, which I think we've learned over time, not everybody does. That's part of the reason why we've gotten to the place that we are in society right now. Podcasts are digital, and so on some level, they can feel kind of ephemeral, but they live on the internet for so long, in like a well-indexed, centralized place. And they're long. People will listen to two hours. I mean, people I mean, me, I will listen to two hours, that type of just BS, like nothing, like people just talking about old gossip. Like, I have no problem that, for me is something that I totally enjoy. And there's so many, the success of so many shows out there is really just people wanting to listen to someone talk sometimes regardless of whether it's evergreen or of the moment. And so it's tricky, because like we do find ourselves straddling that line a lot of the time, sometimes, I think we managed to like really kind of, like get it really right and hit something at that moment where it just feels really fresh, you know, and really, like well thought out, even though it's coming out like right, as the moment that sounds like something is kind of cresting out there in the zeitgeist. But I mean, that still is kind of like at odds with how we think about engaging some of the topics that we do on our show, you know, we try to be thoughtful, we try to be careful in making sure that we're expressing ourselves in a way that's clear in a way that's not going to be harmful to others, in a way that's going to be entertaining. And that does take time. So sometimes, you know, sometimes we'll be chasing our tails a little bit. Trying to get stuff out the door. Yeah, but I don't know, it's like, we try to have even some of our most topical episodes still have that sustenance to them, that will get somebody to want it, you know, come back and listen to it for a second, third, fifth time, or even discover it three, four months down the line, even our most topical of the moment episodes, have that extra something to them, that keeps people you know, feeling engaged long after the moment of that episode has passed.  Dan Runcie 23:06 For me the episode that you all did that. I think it's that exact point, Brittany, is the Girlboss in the City episode. I feel like when I heard that, I wanted to listen, because I was like, Wait, is this what I think should be by the terrible? Okay, well elicited a demo, I heard I was like, Okay, I see the trend. That makes sense. Okay. Like, and then, you know, just hearing, you know, your take, and I know, you know, just some of the other examples, I'm like, Yes, like, that makes 100% sense. And I think what makes it resonate, not just is it the trend itself, but it also I think, as a listener for me makes me think about, okay, what are some other trends that are like that, because I think so many of the things that we may think may be celebratory, especially in this past six years, where I think we've seen a great influx of more black media and more black representation, especially whether it's with your Netflix or with your streaming services. That said, there are still plenty of, you know, opportunities and holes and tropes and things to push back on. So I've been thinking about that piece ever since you all put that up. Eric Eddings 24:09 Thankfully, like, it was one of the things, most of our episodes, also when we're making them, I don't know if Brittany feels this way, but I often feel a bit kind of crazy, because we'll have an idea. It's not like we don't really deal and hot takes that's kind of why Brittany was like, you know, we take our time we try to make sure we're, you know, fair, we do our research. And so, you know, sometimes when we come upon a thing where we're like, Okay, now this is the take, and we see this trend, we feel like we can define it and then there's that moment actually right after in between having recorded or talk through the episode that we're going to record and it coming out where I feel crazy because now I'm like, I see it everywhere. And it doesn't it's like you know, like almost like they live where you have the sunglasses all you see like people as aliens. It's kind of like that. And so, you know, with that episode it was really exciting to kind of make those types of connections. Because like that genre I have been consuming not as a genre, I have been just like catching pieces of it. And it wasn't until like being in conversation with Britney, that I'm realizing, Wait, this is a genre. And you know, when you're thinking about that, that means something might change in terms of how you consume it. And so like, you know, a lot of the surprise I had or like, I was, you know, Brittany was explaining this thing or how she feels about her genre before it's worth, as you hear me, I'm coming to it, you know, I'm saying like, I am embracing it to kind of formulate my own ideas. And I think, yeah, I think the audience appreciates being able to hear kind of both sides of that, like the person who has, like, you know, who feels like they, they know, their I know my shit, I have figured it out, I see it, and then that person's like, Well, wait, actually, oh, shit. Like, you know, like that tug of war, I think can be really, really fun. It happens in so many different ways. Like, you know, back and forth, which is, you know, part of what's so fun about show. Brittany Luse 26:00 Yeah, I'm really glad that you respond to that episode, because, like, sometimes, we'll be putting stuff out and it's like, okay, I know this is interesting to me. Like, you know, like, Oh, get out here on a limb talking about you know, all these white women and Sex in the City on this For Colored Nerds show you know, I'm like, how are people going to respond? We did an episode more recently about me looking at like moms throughout pop culture and how my favorite mom on TV right now is Pamela Adlon on better things, a white woman. And I'm like, I tweeted before the episode came out, I was like, Look, by these episodes, gonna be bought one of my favorite white women, but I need y'all to trust me. And it came out on March 1, and someone tried to catch me they were like, don't do this during Black History Month. And I was like, it's gonna be March 1. But yeah, I mean, sometimes it's a little, it's a little stressful to think about, you know, like, we have so many conversations, me and Eric, and also us with Alexis William, our producer, like we have so many conversations as a team. Just like pinging things back and forth, we have a group chat, where we send articles, messy stuff from the internet, Twitter, beef. I'd like to talk about this thing. It said, when we have episodes like that, it sometimes feels like we're like letting people into like, I don't know, it's like opening up your medicine cabinet, or you're like utility closet for somebody, it's like I'm going to show you something might be a little weird, but we'll see how you respond. So it's really nice to hear from you. Like, as somebody who is like both has their finger on the pulse of what's happening, sort of like immediate entertainment. But also you don't strike me as much of a Girlboss. But it's nice to know that you felt the episode as well. Eric Eddings 27:39 The other thing you spoke to the moment a bit, and I think is important to kind of come back to that, like the kind of the moment that we're in. You know, I think a part also, while we were so excited to return to the show, you know, like for us, I was actually weird. I was talking about this with a friend yesterday like I start I'm watching this, I'm watching the changes in media, people come in into the space making stuff that like, to be frank, I've always kind of dreamed of seeing or listening to. And the thing that I'm so happy about is that you know, I don't know how to shut off the brain, the part of my brain is trying to understand where it's headed, and figure out how I feel about it. And so, you know, it's so awesome to kind of have that space where we can do that. And I think even one of the things we realized is that looking kind of back at, you know, both The Nod and For Colored Nerds, we were doing a version of kind of that same thing. We've often talked about it feeling a bit like a time capsule. And so you know, I'm happy that you came to this came to Girlboss in this moment, because I'm also so curious about where it goes and like then we can you know, even selfishly, I can look back and kind of be like, listen to that, like, Oh, it's so interesting that that's where we were considering, like wherever we end up because look at the news house, it's kind of like we have no idea. The world is crazy. Dan Runcie 28:51 Oh, yeah, I think the time capsule piece is a great way to play it. Because yeah, as you put it, we are in this era where so much is changing right now with Black Media, and who knows what we may be talking about in 2025, right? Maybe there's a different type of trope, maybe things are better. And there's, you know, less, you know, of a need to dig into tropes. But I think there's one thing that I do think about that will probably always be a bit of a time capsule itself. Maybe not just for you all, but in general of like how we look at it, and maybe I guess I'd call it the perception of Tyler Perry. Books out and as a business person, and I think we could probably do consider I know he's been a common theme on your shows. And going back and listening to someone else can probably reflect maybe where and I don't want to say their culture because people have such a wide opinion of Tyler Perry even within the black community. Oh, yes. But it's interesting because I think that you all could probably relate to maybe how I think about him and what he's built because on one hand, it is so impressive to see this person that literally built what he was able to create and given the circumstances and As a black business leader, it is inspiring to see that. On the other hand, as people like me that often live on Twitter to log every few days, there's slip time that clip that's like, no Tyler Perry Studios has to be shut down. Because it's some clip of someone wiling out and doing something ridiculous that would never be seen on any other type of broadcast. And you're like, what? But that's part of the basic this. And I mean, I could go on for days about it. But yeah, where are you both right now with Tyler Perry?  Brittany Luse 30:32 My feelings swing like a pendulum about how I feel about Tyler Perry. Like, on one hand, I mean, I'll say this, like, I think the older I get, and the more his legacy like continues on, I really enjoy the camp of Tyler Perry, Tyler Perry. Like almost has no, not almost Tyler Perry has absolutely no shame. Tyler Perry is one of the most shameless performers I've ever seen in my entire life. He leaves it all on the floor, he holds literally looking back, like, I don't even think he has an unexplored idea. In his mind. I think he literally has an idea. I can take action on each of them. And I think that we've seen them meet as possible. So like, I don't know, there's something about like, him just not giving a shit that I really connect to. And he just like leaning in and doing whatever he can to entertain people, maybe second himself first, I think I love that. It's amazing. When Tyler Perry also shows up in somebody else's movie, his acting… like I had never seen Gone Girl until like two years ago. And I watched it and I found myself saying this is just like a white Tyler Perry movie. And then he was in the regular person. Like, Star Wars. I think the Star Wars played a regular person. Yeah, like, I think that is so funny. And I kind of Oh, yeah, yeah. It's funny the level like, I think he kind of knows he's ridiculous. And I like that. I also like, you know, he said a bunch of things about like, how his content is like, it's very accessible in every sense of the word. And also, like he like, does make family entertainment, which like, when you think about like, when we get together, black folks get together to watch movies or play games or have you know, Christmas dinner or whatever, wherever we're going to turn on after that, you kind of do want that multi-generational entertainment that's got a little something for everybody, maybe slightly risky, with a Christian message. It serves a purpose. And he's put so many black actors and not writers. But what I would say something that I found out is that like crew people, like basically like if you're on Tyler Perry crew, if your editor, you're a gaffer, whatever, for what I understand, you're making good money, like he'll pay you in Atlanta, what you would get paid in New York or LA. So it's weird. It's like I have such complex feelings, because obviously, like, he doesn't employ writers at all, which is pretty clear. Even if you didn't know that for a fact, I think it's pretty evident from the work he does employ writers at all. I mean, there's so much to be said about his content and what some people might think of as like it being harmful or holding black people back or engaging stereotypes, especially stereotypes about black women. I mean, all of that stuff is true. But I do find Tyler Perry interesting as somebody who like has built an honest business what I mean, when I say honest business is like, he knows exactly what people want from him. And he gives it to people consistently. He knew somehow that like if people would watch me playing Medea completely made up character, that people would watch grainy bootleg DVDs and be playing Medea and gospel stage place with their families, they absolutely would buy a 15 $20 movie ticket, they absolutely would go to see me in person, like on tour. And they absolutely would tune in if I was on Oprah. And that was a pretty smart way to build a brand. If you look back at it. That's what I mean, when I say that Tyler Perry has an honest business. He provides exactly what he has always promised, and there is something compelling about that. That's where I am today. Eric Eddings 34:18 It's almost like I can't quit him completely. If that makes any sense. Like, you know, to Brittany's point, there's so much he's accomplished so much. And it's so fascinating how he uses that those accomplishments to facilitate by where there's growth, his own growth, the growth company where growth is in the medium, whatever, and it's just so hard to pin down his reasons, you know, saying in terms for any one thing, but you can't help but be fascinated by it like yeah, it's one of those people like I respect what he's accomplished so much and you know, they're even don't get twisted. Another big piece of this is that I try to have very complex thoughts about what I want the world to be. And I try to educate myself, I try to really, you know, say, like, do the work of understanding who I want to be in the world, but also try not to be above at all, if that makes any sense. And I think like with Tyler Perry, sometimes people can, like, turn their nose, like the folks who enjoy his content, because of all the things that come along with it. But also, like, we can't lose the fact that like, people are being moved by this in some way. And I try not to be above I try to meet them where they're at, would I challenge him to maybe make a few changes? Absolutely. If I had the opportunity, you know, do I think that like, you know, maybe even those people were in his audience deserve a tiny bit better? Absolutely. But guess what they're happy. And you know, like that, it gives me the thing that I can connect with that, you know, that cousin who I only see at the family reunion or, you know, I'm saying like on will help more recently, the family Zune call or whatever we're doing, you know, nowadays, like, it gives me that thing that I know, I can connect with him about, you know, and I send my thoughts about everything else related to the movie to the group test, you know. So yeah, you got to respect it, even though you also maybe have to critique it. Dan Runcie 36:06 100%. I mean, look at how he's got about just being unapologetic. I think back to that clip that he had with Kenya Barris, where Kenya Barris said something to the effect, you know, I'm always making shows that I'm trying to seek white people's approval or rotten tomatoes or whatever. Tyler Perry's, like, I don't give a fuck about Rotten Tomatoes, or any of this stuff. Like I'm making it for the people I make it for right. And then you see Tyler Perry, like two years later getting honored by the Oscars institution that he totally does not care what they have to say like, and this is how he's built himself. And there is something amazing with that, right. And, Eric, I do like the point that you brought up regarding how it can be easy for people, especially within, you know, black folks to turn their nose up or look down on the people that clearly enjoy this content. And in some ways, it also makes me think of no different than how in, you know, the most recent election in the primaries, people were turning their nose up at some of the black voters in the south and who they supported as the, you know, Democratic candidate and it's like, no, like, you can't just, you know, play this elitistness of how people look at their content. And I think there is, you know, to your point as well, Brittany a beauty and who else can relate. I mean, I've talked to my mom about Tyler Perry, and you know, she's a big woman in her 60s, and you know, she'll watch beat the browns, and she's no problem with it. And I think, you know, it's great that she does that, right. And I think, you know, just being able to have that kind of comment places like okay, yes. Why does this exist? I'm still gonna laugh when somebody takes a clip of it and posts it on Twitter and be like, What the hell was this? But, no.  Brittany Luse 37:47 But no, I mean, to this day, sometimes me my turn off the dinner scene, like the dinner reveal scene from Why did I get married? I mean, you can just turn that on anytime a day. And you'll be laughing for 50 minutes straight. I'm sorry, that was a good movie. When I first started dating my fiance I think maybe five weeks into us dating five weeks, and I got the flu. And he took care of me, which is like a, you know, thing that definitely set him apart. But the thing is, like, the first thing that he did was turn on why didn't get married? He was like, Oh, you're sick a bit. Let me turn on this tell I could have put you in a better place. And he was absolutely right. There's something about this stuff. It's just, it's comforting. Eric Eddings 38:31 It works. It definitely works Dan Runcie 38:32 it definitely does. Alright, well, before we let you go. I wanted to talk a bit about hip hop. Of course, this is an area that I do cover with the podcast and it's just an interesting thing for me because both have my personal interest of someone that like anyone that music I grew up listening to in high school and college definitely will always have a special place for me, but I'm covering now and looking at a lot of people whose music I may not necessarily seek out but I'm still you know, I'm following to make sure that I can, you know, not just be as subjective as I can. But obviously, you know, it's hard not to do that. But I guess it's people that are also in the media space. And you know, also you know, I guess I'll include both hip hop and R&B together, it'd be good to hear you know, what's your relationship like with current music made by current artists compared to the music that also may have been popular when you were in high school or college? What is that relationship like for you? Eric Eddings 39:30 It's funny. We've been talking about this a little bit just as a group as a show team, this exact point, at least for me, you know, it's a really kind of interesting moment because like, I was somebody you know, back in the like, blog era Hip Hop time, you know, I was like, I caught every night right post you know, I'm saying like, I was literally because I google readers, I would make sure to click everyone listens to like first 30 seconds of the mixtape or whatever to see if I liked it, and then you know, kind of come back to listen more later, I got time for it now, you know, like, there's just too much going on. And so, you know, I found myself at the place where I have learned that like a lot of people get like once they kind of hit their mid-30s actually start apparently retreating to the things that made them most comfortable. So I feel myself doing that, but also, to your point, like I feel conflicted about it, because I'm like, Oh, shit, I'm not trying to tap out, I'm not trying to, like push myself back from the table, you know, I'm still here. And so, you know, I do try to catch some of the kind of newer artists who are kind of coming out and watch, again, for the trends of what I see. And so you're, I'll still try to listen a little bit online Fridays when stuff comes out. Like I'm trying to, like hear a little bit, but not all the time, like, there have been folks who have kind of risen above and often it's the first kind of connected to the people to the artists who I kind of evangelize from a little bit before. So like, Baby Keem, for example, I've been like a huge fan of like, you know, some of his like tracks that come out on the album, he obviously you know, his Kendrick's cousin, you know, but just like that kind of folks who are kind of in the orbit of others that No, I can feel most confident about in terms of whether the sound is going to be kind of what I'm looking for. Because also hip hop is really changing. And like, you know, it's changing around me in a way that I don't always connect with, but I respect that power and the fact that like, you know, it's a living breathing thing, it's gonna become something else. And so, you know, I'm trying to understand a little bit of the trajectory of kind of where they're going to be able to just understand how my relationship to it is changing. So yeah, it's a complicated time. I'm not like, I think I told Brittany this at this moment, listen to more r&b than I have ever in my life. Dan Runcie 41:41 Are we talking about modern like R&B artists or like R&B back in the day, Eric Eddings 41:45 All of it, I'm talking about, you know, like, everything from the help that rerelease, hotels to, you know, Jazmine Sullivan, to you know, going back, and I have literally I call it like, oh, people cookout music, their playlist has been good, that placement, plenty of work for me, you know, so it really runs the range. And some of that comes from just like the volatility of the world right now, you know, but I don't want to say that, like, I don't know, I think Hip Hop reflects more than what we can consume. And so what I have been seeing recently has sometimes stressed me out, you know, and so I found myself leaning on other genres, but I do still have hope that they're gonna swing back, and there's probably gonna be somebody else Hill, everybody's talking about Kendrick coming back this year. So maybe, you know, he can inspire some folks, we'll see. Because, sorry, I rambled Brittany Luse 42:28 As far as music. So I really like music that I can sing along to and kind of what Eric was saying. Like, I like to say things that like, especially like I like listening to, at this point in my life, rap and hip hop, that makes me feel aspirational. And I feel like female rappers right now are the only people who are rapping about things that actually you'd want to do. They're like, oh, I want you know, they're basically like, I want to have sex with a really hot guy. I want to make a lot of money. I want to buy expensive things. And I want to go on a trip. I'm like, wow, yeah. I mean, I identify with that until like, they say, a really poetic way. And they put a great beat. I'm like, This is what I'm talking about this. I understand. They're always just like, I'm so flying. So cute. I'm so beautiful. I'm gonna have it? To me, this never goes out of style. I think that sometimes when I hear some of the young, these young men, everything is like Xanny, Xanny, Xanny. And my thought is like, I know, I'm getting really getting older because I'm just like, Oh, my God, they are stressing me out. Like, are you drinking water? Are you taking breaks? Do you have a trip, buddy? Like, you should not be taking all these empty bars by yourself and being in a club, and I tell anybody is not safe. But also like, some, like, I want to listen to things that are gonna like make me feel good or ease my stress. And I think to Eric's point, right now, I don't feel like listening to a lot of younger male artists at this point eases my stress. That's not to say that I don't think there are quite a few people that I hear that I'm like, oh, man, that sounds really good. That sounds interesting. But I also don't follow music as much as I used to when I was younger, I was kind of into like, some of like the block hip hop. I used to follow a blind eye for the kids. And I was always downloading all the stuff and listening to it. And it was fun. But like, I didn't have like the type of bills I have. Now. I have more energy. I'm tired now. And so I think even sometimes deciding to try something new feels like it can take energy out of me when I'm like I can just go straight to something that I know that I'm really going to enjoy. So because I love music that I can sing along to. I have always been a pretty strong r&b listener. My parents are really an r&b I've actually found myself enjoying present r&b and real like real good singers like a Jazmine Sullivan Ari Lennox, JoJo, like people who really can think I do like to listen to music. I love pop. But you know, speaking specifically, to slightly close up. I've been listening to a lot of older r&b stuff that like I will hear on like a 70s mix or something like that. And it'll like take me back to being in a car of my parents on a Saturday night coming home from one of their friend's parties, hearing like a quiet storm set on the radio, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I haven't heard the song in 25 years.  Like, I've been listening to a lot of that stuff. And I don't know, it just puts me in a good state. And I feel like some of it really just speaks to my emotions, maybe that I'm experiencing as in like, as I'm getting deeper into adulthood as I'm like a real adult now at 34 when I wasn't really 27, 24, 22. I think that there's like a, I don't know, like something about where the melody hits. The lyrical complexity is just I don't know, I understand basically, now are my parents were like 35, 40. And listening to Angela Bofill. Late at night, driving workplaces. So I mean, but what I will say is that my opinion on what music is popping right now, I'm actually I don't care that much about my opinion, even if I don't listen to everything. I really want to know what young people are responding to. Because I think what they think of their music is a lot more important than what I think of their music. Like, it's fine to me that like, I don't connect with it, because it's not meant I'm not meant to connect with it. Like my time of wearing you know, as the kids say, like the Olivia Pope business casual in the club, I had a stat investment for over 21. I worked for a party at Rutgers in 2007. Those days are behind me, thankfully. But yeah, I think I don't know. That's what part is more like tick tock tick tock, like playlists, or even just like seeing what's hot on the charts. Keeps me up with like, artists that young people are super into. And also even sometimes on TikTok, there'll be people who are way younger than me, like 1015 years younger, who like to make Top Five artists I'm listening to right now. And I get to hear snippets of their music. Like, I'm just interested in what they think about their music, because like, honestly, what they think about their music and how it speaks to them. That says a lot more to me about their, like, where culture is headed, and what they're into that like me listening to something and being like, What the hell is this? You know, I'm Auntie now and it's fine. Dan Runcie 47:09 Yeah, that's the exact point there. I think that I, like, in my view, group chats, people will do this thing. Every year, someone will post the annual XXL freshman class, and then they're like, Hey, do y'all even know when you these names in here? And I'm like, bro, you're 39 with you. They're not meant for you. Like, yeah, this literally isn't meant for you. And so I think about that piece, right? And maybe even more. So now. It's like, I think that some of these artists the same way that media general is just becoming more niche, they know, their audience, they're leaning into it even more. So that may be some of the forced mass marketing that they would have been pushed to do, you know, 20, 30 years ago before. Eric Eddings 47:49 To your point, they're smarter, you know, saying you don't need to, and also how people think about what a hugely successful career in music is different and slightly now, you know, like, there is not actually the same scale as there used to be or if that scale exists is only for a much smaller amount of folks. So like, I think people are coming into the game. Now, the game sound like I'm trying to be cool, but like, people are coming into hip hop now trying to, you know, like, sustain themselves and have a long career as opposed to always being, you know, trying to necessarily be like the person at like, the top the charts. And I think that actually is really great. I think because again, the sustaining is a part that is really interesting, because we've seen so many of our, you know, favorite rappers or musicians period just kind of like burn themselves out or get burned by the industry. And then they, you know, disappear after a few albums. So yeah, you know, like the like, I'm still shocked futures is produced it, you know, he's had a long career, but like, I think there are a lot of. Brittany Luse 48:48 vVery true. Eric Eddings 48:51 But yeah, there's so many others. I'm like, I want them to be able to have the longevity in this space, especially a lot of the female rappers out here now, I am excited to see them. So in control of the business as well, because of how, like, you know, they're smarter about what that's going to protect for them later on. Man is like getting her shit together. She learned about the run me off the paint. Like, I know what the contract the paper is supposed to Eric Eddings 49:18 The sauce was good. It was good. Brittany Luse 49:19 It was it was great. Yeah. Dan Runcie 49:23 Oh, man, we could talk about, you know, hip hop all day. But I know we've run out of time. But before we let you go, I feel like that last point you made was probably a good note to just tie things up, right? People are getting smarter about knowing their audiences leaning into it. And I think that speaks a lot to what you both have been able to build over the years with For Colored Nerds with The Nod and then you know, back with for color nerds. Again, I think that having an audience that has been with you this long, just speaks to the work that you've done in all of the that goes into it. So thank you again for coming on. And I mean, both as a listener and as a fellow podcaster, it's been great to watch both of your charity. Thank you. It was great. Eric Eddings 50:05 last night. Yeah, seriously, Brittany Luse 50:07 You do great work/ You made this infographic like a flowchart about ESA raised businesses and how they Yeah, like how each one feeds the other. Like talking about why she still has the Patreon how she's thinking about radio and this was probably like three or four years ago or something like that. It was like instant follow. So it's cool to be here with you Dan Runcie 50:31 Thank you. That means a lot. Really appreciate it, really appreciate it.  If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link text it to a friend posted in your group chat posted in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead rate the podcast give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 25 Mar 2022 08:00:00 -0000 Why Podcast Ownership Matters with Brittany Luse and Eric Eddings of “For Colored Nerds” full 118 Dan Runcie A lot of creators talk about owning their intellectual property and distribution, but co-hosts of the For Colored Nerds podcast — Eric Eddings and Brittany Luse — actually went and made it happen, by any means necessary. The two left the Spotify-owned Gimlet Media network in 2020, leaving behind The Nod show (and its IP) which they had built up since 2017. As “free agents”, the duo made ownership a mandate in its next podcast deal. Stitcher was happy to oblige, bringing the two together in a homecoming of sorts. Before Gimlet, Eric and Brittany began podcasting with Stitcher which included the first iteration of the For Colored Nerds podcast. Now it’s back in its second form — still with a heavy dose of discourse about the intersection of pop and Black culture, but now with a dash of personal opinions from the two on ongoing issues as they see it. For Colored Nerds is one example of how the media industry is transforming in real-time. While Eric and Brittany got what they wanted, it wasn’t easy. The two joined me on this episode of Trapital to discuss this laborious process that included lawyers and agents — two things most creators aren’t privy to. Here’s everything we discussed in this episode: [3:07] Why Choose Stitcher Over Other Networks?  [5:52] Changing Landscape Of Creator Ownership [9:22] Biggest Barriers To Having A Fair Contract [11:31] Will Future Podcast Networks Embrace Creator Ownership? [18:23] How Does The Podcast Balance What Topics To Discuss On The Show? [22:10] What Makes Podcasting So Special [28:51] The Polarization Of Tyler Perry  [37:06] The Perils Of An “Elitist” Mindset [42:28] Relationship With Present-Day Music Compared To Past Favorites [49:23] Knowing Your Audience This episode is brought to you by Koji, the best “link in bio” tool. It is trusted by Grammy winners, chart-topping hitmakers, and more. Join 185,000+ creators. Check it out for free: koji.to/trapitalpodcast Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Brittany Luse, IG: @bmluse | Eric Eddings, Twitter: @eeddings | For Colored Nerds Podcast, IG & Twitter: @ForColoredNerds     Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands _____ Eric Eddings 00:00 What the industry kind of needs to understand is that people now, like, require that flexibility. Because so many creators understand different parts of the trajectory. Everybody's not necessarily trying to be, you know, at the pinnacle of podcasts or like on the front page of, you know, iTunes every single day. There are different levels. Some people are having a podcast, they want it as a significant companion to maybe something else that they're building. And so they understand what place that podcast could fit into their lives and into their brand or ecosystem. Dan Runcie 00:38 Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. On today's episode, I'm joined by Brittany Luse and Eric Eddings. They're the host of the podcast, For Colored Nerds, which peels back the layers of black culture. I've been following Brittany and Eric's work for a while now, back when they had their podcast on gimlet media, The Nod. And they also had the Quibi Show after that. And they recently relaunched their old podcast, For Colored Nerds. So we talked about that, we talked about the journey and how Brittany and Eric have been so open and transparent about podcast ownership and some of the back and forth challenges that have happened not just with them, but with other podcasters that ultimately what they hope to see in this industry in the future. We also talked a bit more about how they go about thinking of their content, some of the common themes that they'll discuss on the shows, and one of the things that they discuss, which is a topic I've often discussed on Trapital as well is Tyler Perry. If you've read through Apple, you know that I'm more so, talking about Tyler for what he's achieved from a business perspective, which I've always found inspiring and great. But on the content side, it's a little different, because I think many people do have some conflicting opinions about how he's gone about things that he put out, and, but also recognizing that there was an audience that Tyler has unapologetically been willing to serve, and what that means for him as a business leader, and how that obviously has led to his success. So we talked a lot about that.  And we also talked more broadly about hip hop as well. Folks like us, who I think grew up in the 90s and 2000s, and may still resonate with so many of the artists from that era, how do we relate to current day hip hop? And is it our place to relate to some of the current artists? So we talk about that, and a whole lot more. Here's my chat with Brittany and Eric.  All right, today, we got Brittany and Eric from the For Colored Nerds Podcast. I’ve been a big fan. I've been following their work for a while, and also their journey. And before we start, I do just want to say thank you to both of you, because I feel like you've been so open about so much in the podcasting space. And I think a lot of people learned a lot from that. So thank you both it’s much appreciated. Brittany Luse 03:00 Thank you. Eric Eddings 03:01 Thank you for having us. Yeah, it's been a wild ride in this industry. But it's been good.  Dan Runcie 03:07 Definitely. And I know for you that your journey has been well documented, you're back on the podcast that you had started years back with For Colored Nerds. And now you're with Stitcher, and I'd love to start there because I'm sure that you got hit up by a number of different outlets or networks that likely wanted to partner with y'all. What was it about stitcher that made you want to work with them? Eric Eddings 03:31 Wow. I mean, I felt like there was a lot I mean. To your point, we did a bit of the tour, I guess you could say, in terms of meeting with tons of distributors, you know, after our Quibi show kind of wound down after, hell, after Quibi. Went down a rabbit... Brittany Luse 03:47 It happens on the same day. Eric Eddings 03:50 Yeah, exactly. But no, with Stitcher, I think there were a few things that lined up pretty quickly. They were the only ones who who started the conversation, knowing that we were coming in with a desire to own our show, which is funny, because as to your point before, like, we have been very open about like some of the conflicts that we you know, had around pursuing ownership in particular. And so I think like that changed the conversation in a way where we then, actually, could talk more freely and comfortably about what we wanted the show to be, you know, because again, there was not that fear of like, you know, will it be ours? And will we maybe have to make something different, you know, after the fact if we don't own and kind of control that so I think that was like one big piece of it. I'm curious Brittany, like what you would add Brittany Luse 04:37 I mean, a big part of it, too, is like the team. I mean, one of the people that we got to you know, talk with coming into Stitcher when we were just sort of in the initial feeling each other out stage is someone who turned out to be the cousin of someone we met a few years ago and like hit it off with, Natalie Well who's amazing, she's literally just made us feel comfortable from like moment one. Also Peter Clowney, who is, Eric knows this, proper title. I feel terrible because I can't remember anyone's proper title. Because Eric works at Stitcher as an executive, and I am but a lowly, what's the word? I paid a vendor, I'm a vendor. And so I'm not always proven everything happens within a company. Peter Clowney, who is like I think the VP of content at Stitcher, he was the very first editor that I ever had, like podcast editor, like the very first edit. And it is like a term in podcasting, where the team will sit and listen, or be sent a version of an episode, and leave comments and share them with each other in order to make the episode better and get to that next draft. The first time I ever did that, was with Peter Clowney and that was 2015. So, you know, I have this full-circle moment when in 2021, he's the person who's really extending the offer for us to come and join Stitcher. That just felt really, right.  Brittany Luse 05:52 Also, you know, we first launched For Colored nerds with Stitcher, we have an incredible executive producer, Kameel Stanley, who is basically like a legend of public radio in St. Louis and is just a hell of an executive producer. She, I mean, she kept like, the first I think we had her for what, maybe three, four months, when we were first really ramping up, she kept things together, and she kept things moving. Yeah. And she was somebody who we had already, we've been interviewed by before, I think the previous year with regard to rights and ownership and IP and everything like that. She is just a fantastic journalist and just was such an amazing guide. So it was just so amazing to have this experience where we had so many sharp people who we had either met before had a relationship with before or had a meaningful link to coming in. And it just kind of made things feel a lot more familiar. And also to they were just fast. They're just fast. They were like, yeah, they followed up, they were fast. And they were, I don't know, I mean, I think in so many areas of life, like somebody like the person who's just eager to follow up with you and eager to form that connection or cement that relationship. That's usually the person that you want to go with. Dan Runcie 07:02 That makes sense. Yeah, I hear the relationship side of it. I also hear the ownership side of it too. And especially with the way things are shifting now, sometimes it's still so shocking that it is still such a charged or controversial thing for whether it's podcasters writers or creators in any type of shape too, what, I mean, you're coming in, you have a base, you have plenty of leverage, like how is this still one of these discussions where they want 100% of the thing, and there's not even a discussion about shared or what that could look like. And I mean, it's not just, you always see this at the highest levels, whether it's I think, was   Michaela Coel, when she was talking about I May Destroy You when she was going back and forth, whether it was Netflix or HBO on wanting a slice, like, this is something that is clearly a challenge and a difficult thing for people at every scale of this game. Eric Eddings 07:54 I mean, the industry is shifting, and you know, depending upon what side of the Creator versus like, you know, distributor network, you're on, you maybe view how fast that industry is shifting differently. You know? And it's something that I think the industry has to do a better job at understanding. People are more literate about the trials and tribulations and pitfalls that you can run into trying to create something, and trying to create something that like is distributed to other people, wherever podcasts, movies, music, you know, I'm saying like, we all have the same internet, and like, we've all read the stories and the features. And so people know more of what to ask for. And, you know, the reasons they might have received before about why they, you know, could not or maybe should not deserve, like, you know, the rights to their own content are starting to, you know, finally feel frivolous. And so, you know, I think that thing is changing, I think it is still though a game of leverage, and it's still, you know, depends on what you have in your corner, sadly, to be able to kind of push the issue, you know, with the distributor, with just whoever you're partnering with to be able to get what you want. And yeah, there sadly, is still a lot of.. We got reached out to today about this same, this very same issue. And it's that's something that happens fairly frequently. So there's a lot of work that still has to happen. Dan Runcie 09:15 And on that note, is it people reaching out to you asking you for advice to be like, Hey, I know you all want Yes. Any thoughts? Brittany Luse 09:22 Yes. I mean, yeah, emails, text messages, phone calls, DMS, I had somebody reach out to me via text on behalf of one of their friends yesterday, wondering about the same thing. And I mean, there's, you know, we try to give as much advice as we can. But at the end of the day, the best advice you can get in those situations definitely comes from like a legal professional. Typically, those are the people that you want to defer to. We are not we are not those. That's why sometimes I podcast people like what would you guys see what I'm like, You know what, I am not in the business of giving legal advice, but my biggest piece of legal advice is to get a lawyer. But yeah, I mean, obviously I share a little bit more people than that. But yeah, I think because we've been so open, sometimes people that we do not even know will reach out to us out of the blue, just to be like, Hey, this is something that I know that you went through, do you have 5, 10, 15, 30 minutes to talk with me and kind of guide me through this process? I mean, I will say the thing that I always say, which is that these contracts should not be so difficult that a regular person could not pick up and read them. I think that there's obviously how do I put it, I mean, a barrier to being able to have a fair contract is having the financial resources and also the institutional knowledge relationships, to be able to get a lawyer like that something that we did not have, I don't think I know when I first started working at Gimlet back in 2015. I didn't have the financial resources to hire a lawyer. Yeah, it wasn't an option, I wouldn't have known how to find an entertainment lawyer. Because before then, I was working as like, I mean, marketing manager was the title, but that didn't line up with what I was doing at my job. So yeah, I wouldn't have had like the relationships, the understanding, I wouldn't have known how to find an entertainment lawyer. And I definitely didn't have the money coming into working there to have that. So I think that like, you know, there is a certain level of like, eat, we're all being finessed a little bit, by the fact that people have to get not feel like they have to, but really, truly have to have agents and lawyers and money upfront, to be able to spend on having somebody basically be their pitbull, and get into the ring and fight for the contract that they deserve. Dan Runcie 11:31 Yeah, it's interesting with podcasting, specifically, because I look at the music industry, or even with writing to some extent, I have seen a few more of these hybrid models where it's okay, you can release your music on this platform, we offer a little bit more of a distribution push and a little bit more of a network per se than you would get if you just did it solely on your own. But you could still maintain the ownership, we just get, you know, a set cut or whatever it is. And we've seen this in music, whether it's record labels like Empire that started with a similar type of mindset, or some of the others, even with writing, I've started to see some creative things. But with podcasting, specifically, it may be part of it's just, I haven't seen it myself and what I've seen, but I still haven't quite seen that network that is being ready to be as front and center be like, Hey, we're here, if you want to do an exclusive deal, but you maintain your ownership and we do a licensing deal, we could do that. Or if you want to have a set split, this is what our network is known for. I haven't quite seen that same thing in podcasting. And obviously, I know part of the challenge is the value is the ownership that they have because then they can go get sold to whoever, but I think part of me still waiting to see that, like, is that going to be a standard for one of the next, you know, rising networks. Brittany Luse 12:51 We are waiting to see that Eric Eddings 12:56 Everybody's watching. Yeah, I mean, look, there are networks. I mean, even Stitcher, I don't say this, you know, to not trying to be like a corporate shill, but like, you know, we engage a bunch of different types of deals. Yeah, I work as a creative executive there. And, you know, so what that means is like, there are some things that we, you know, own outright, there are some things that stitcher owns outright, there are some things that you know, they license, you know, and just rip the ads, there are some things that you know, are hybrid, I think what you don't want, even that, for its worth is actually can be rare to have all those different types of like deals. But I think in general, what the industry kind of needs to understand is that people now, like, require that flexibility, because, you know, so many creators understand different parts of the trajectory, you know, everybody's not necessarily trying to be, you know, at the pinnacle of, you know, podcasts or like, on the front page of, you know, iTunes every single day, there are different levels, some people are having the podcast, they want it as a significant companion to maybe something else that they're building. And so they understand what place that podcast could fit into their life and into their, you know, brand or ecosystem. And the company that is willing to like, be most flexible to that is going to get that person you know, like, because they're creating that comfort, they're creating that like space to say like, I want to work with you so much of entertainment, what people haven't realized behind the scenes, it's not necessarily I want to work with you, it kind of wants to work for them, you know, and to that degree, like, you know, your contract reflects that. And I'm so excited by the shift that I see kind of happening in all entertainment-related industries. We're seeing a lot more, hell, sports, you know, we just see a lot more creator or athlete lead, you know, like deals but things were basically the power in the leverage is becoming more equal, slowly.  Brittany Luse 14:54 I think the thing that's tricky for me is the deals that are fair and reasonable exist, and I'll say that we received a pretty good one from Stitcher. I mean, like from jump, when we received the contract, it was like, all fit on one page, double triple space. It was mostly plain English. I understood it when I read it. And we felt good about it. And it felt like it was befitting of like, how much air can I put into the show? And who really owns it? And I will say like, it was really nice to get that deal now, but my hope is like, you know, people are like, when will we get there? What do you think 'there' is there for me quote, unquote, there for me is when me and Eric back in 2014, we first started the show would have been handed a deal like the one we got last year in 2021. And so like a or even back in 2017, when we first launched The Nod, me and Eric at that point was been given new contracts. Because then that very clearly showed that was really the DNA it was based off For Colored Nerds, come on a show about Black culture hosted by me and Eric, now we based it off of something else. Are you kidding me? That's what it was. I think that that to me is like when the equity has really gotten there, and it is going to take time, I wish that it didn't take the time it is going to take time.  Brittany Luse 14:54 But even I will say this though, there are people usually like white, a lot of times male. And I was gonna say like, usually they have a large following. But sometimes it's like, I don't even know if that's what's going into the business decision that's being made when somebody you know, offers, like some white guy who has a podcast a bunch of money to be able to, like make that thing forever gives that person a really good deal, or some sort of like exclusive, you know, whatever. There are people who have been getting fair deals all this time. I just would like to see sort of like the bar for that either be lower to just like I say lower, I mean, just like allowing more people in right now the bar is basically like, are you why are you guy? Are you famous? Or like, yes. Do you want to share my microphone, I would like to see sort of rather, I would like to see that avenue broadened. And that's what I mean, when we're there, like Success for me is just like not having to have relationships years in the game, or be like a white guy with a podcast to be able to get access to the type of deal that we have now. Dan Runcie 17:19 Yeah. And I think that framing makes complete sense. Right? When you first started this and had the idea, you should have had this in place. And then further when you're signing a deal with Gimlet or even you know, with Quibi, or whoever. There's enough, not just you know, layman's terms, but there's also just enough commonality that those things can happen. And I think that also makes me think a bit about the show itself. And maybe just some of the slight differences between The Nod and For Colored Nerds, The Nod, at least my impression is always a bit more like, hey, here is the latest thing that is happening right now in black culture. And here's our take on it. Well, let's discuss it, I think For Colored Nerds has that as well. But I think you also mix in some evergreen topics that have always come in which I think I always enjoy hearing. And I'm curious, from your perspective, how has the process been about determining the topics of that balance, because I'm sure there are the evergreen topics that you may want to hit. There are also timely things that likely you may want to dive into. But then you also, you know, have things that you're just personally interested in compared to what you may know, the audience would really want to hear or what you know what drives engagement. So yeah, how was that, balancing that piece of the event for you? Eric Eddings 18:39 You don't know how timely that question is. Because we are always kind of managing our relationship with it. It is a balance. And it's a conversation that is kind of always happening. I think, to start where you did in terms of the comparison, I think how we thought about The Nod is more so we were trying to reflect what we saw. And I think For Colored Nerds is more definitively how we think if that makes any sense. I didn't and I know Brittany, you might disagree, but Yes, just now. Yeah. But when we're thinking about that conversation, basically how we think and how to reflect that to our audience, you know, we are looking at things that like could or either maybe a lot of things start evergreen and become more topical, if that makes any sense. Because also that's kind of how I think our conversations often work we're just kind of talking about things that we've noticed or things that we've seen and they start to kind of build momentum towards like something that could be like on the show and like with it, for example, we consume dating reality shows at an unhealthy clip, we are committed to that genre. And you know, we're always kind of talking about like what we saw how we feel about you know, any given show or episode and it's starting to kind of come to the point, I have this idea that feels like a connects kind of like what I think about all those things, and then bringing like what or, you know, I actually had This idea I was thinking this. And so we start to build that for the episode. And then as we get closer to, you know, having the conversation, we start to realize like, Okay, well, what are the things happening right now that relate to this larger conversation? How can we incorporate that and you know, that changes things as well? So we're always shuffling Jesus, always shuffling our calendar, because that process changes, you know, you might the Evergreen thing might need more time to become a little topical, the topical thing, you know, feel too much like a flash in the pan need to be more evergreen. So, you know, shout out to our producer Alexis, for, you know, really like just kind of rolling with how much of the changes we, you know, sometimes need to make to the schedule. But if we're in conversation with our audience, we want to make sure that we're reacting to that in as healthy a way as possible. Brittany Luse 20:49 Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's tricky. Just because like, on one hand, I don't know podcasting is so interesting in that it is one of the few truly long-form digital media. So you know what I mean? Like, other than maybe, like, reading long-form journalism, which I think we've learned over time, not everybody does. That's part of the reason why we've gotten to the place that we are in society right now. Podcasts are digital, and so on some level, they can feel kind of ephemeral, but they live on the internet for so long, in like a well-indexed, centralized place. And they're long. People will listen to two hours. I mean, people I mean, me, I will listen to two hours, that type of just BS, like nothing, like people just talking about old gossip. Like, I have no problem that, for me is something that I totally enjoy. And there's so many, the success of so many shows out there is really just people wanting to listen to someone talk sometimes regardless of whether it's evergreen or of the moment. And so it's tricky, because like we do find ourselves straddling that line a lot of the time, sometimes, I think we managed to like really kind of, like get it really right and hit something at that moment where it just feels really fresh, you know, and really, like well thought out, even though it's coming out like right, as the moment that sounds like something is kind of cresting out there in the zeitgeist. But I mean, that still is kind of like at odds with how we think about engaging some of the topics that we do on our show, you know, we try to be thoughtful, we try to be careful in making sure that we're expressing ourselves in a way that's clear in a way that's not going to be harmful to others, in a way that's going to be entertaining. And that does take time. So sometimes, you know, sometimes we'll be chasing our tails a little bit. Trying to get stuff out the door. Yeah, but I don't know, it's like, we try to have even some of our most topical episodes still have that sustenance to them, that will get somebody to want it, you know, come back and listen to it for a second, third, fifth time, or even discover it three, four months down the line, even our most topical of the moment episodes, have that extra something to them, that keeps people you know, feeling engaged long after the moment of that episode has passed.  Dan Runcie 23:06 For me the episode that you all did that. I think it's that exact point, Brittany, is the Girlboss in the City episode. I feel like when I heard that, I wanted to listen, because I was like, Wait, is this what I think should be by the terrible? Okay, well elicited a demo, I heard I was like, Okay, I see the trend. That makes sense. Okay. Like, and then, you know, just hearing, you know, your take, and I know, you know, just some of the other examples, I'm like, Yes, like, that makes 100% sense. And I think what makes it resonate, not just is it the trend itself, but it also I think, as a listener for me makes me think about, okay, what are some other trends that are like that, because I think so many of the things that we may think may be celebratory, especially in this past six years, where I think we've seen a great influx of more black media and more black representation, especially whether it's with your Netflix or with your streaming services. That said, there are still plenty of, you know, opportunities and holes and tropes and things to push back on. So I've been thinking about that piece ever since you all put that up. Eric Eddings 24:09 Thankfully, like, it was one of the things, most of our episodes, also when we're making them, I don't know if Brittany feels this way, but I often feel a bit kind of crazy, because we'll have an idea. It's not like we don't really deal and hot takes that's kind of why Brittany was like, you know, we take our time we try to make sure we're, you know, fair, we do our research. And so, you know, sometimes when we come upon a thing where we're like, Okay, now this is the take, and we see this trend, we feel like we can define it and then there's that moment actually right after in between having recorded or talk through the episode that we're going to record and it coming out where I feel crazy because now I'm like, I see it everywhere. And it doesn't it's like you know, like almost like they live where you have the sunglasses all you see like people as aliens. It's kind of like that. And so, you know, with that episode it was really exciting to kind of make those types of connections. Because like that genre I have been consuming not as a genre, I have been just like catching pieces of it. And it wasn't until like being in conversation with Britney, that I'm realizing, Wait, this is a genre. And you know, when you're thinking about that, that means something might change in terms of how you consume it. And so like, you know, a lot of the surprise I had or like, I was, you know, Brittany was explaining this thing or how she feels about her genre before it's worth, as you hear me, I'm coming to it, you know, I'm saying like, I am embracing it to kind of formulate my own ideas. And I think, yeah, I think the audience appreciates being able to hear kind of both sides of that, like the person who has, like, you know, who feels like they, they know, their I know my shit, I have figured it out, I see it, and then that person's like, Well, wait, actually, oh, shit. Like, you know, like that tug of war, I think can be really, really fun. It happens in so many different ways. Like, you know, back and forth, which is, you know, part of what's so fun about show. Brittany Luse 26:00 Yeah, I'm really glad that you respond to that episode, because, like, sometimes, we'll be putting stuff out and it's like, okay, I know this is interesting to me. Like, you know, like, Oh, get out here on a limb talking about you know, all these white women and Sex in the City on this For Colored Nerds show you know, I'm like, how are people going to respond? We did an episode more recently about me looking at like moms throughout pop culture and how my favorite mom on TV right now is Pamela Adlon on better things, a white woman. And I'm like, I tweeted before the episode came out, I was like, Look, by these episodes, gonna be bought one of my favorite white women, but I need y'all to trust me. And it came out on March 1, and someone tried to catch me they were like, don't do this during Black History Month. And I was like, it's gonna be March 1. But yeah, I mean, sometimes it's a little, it's a little stressful to think about, you know, like, we have so many conversations, me and Eric, and also us with Alexis William, our producer, like we have so many conversations as a team. Just like pinging things back and forth, we have a group chat, where we send articles, messy stuff from the internet, Twitter, beef. I'd like to talk about this thing. It said, when we have episodes like that, it sometimes feels like we're like letting people into like, I don't know, it's like opening up your medicine cabinet, or you're like utility closet for somebody, it's like I'm going to show you something might be a little weird, but we'll see how you respond. So it's really nice to hear from you. Like, as somebody who is like both has their finger on the pulse of what's happening, sort of like immediate entertainment. But also you don't strike me as much of a Girlboss. But it's nice to know that you felt the episode as well. Eric Eddings 27:39 The other thing you spoke to the moment a bit, and I think is important to kind of come back to that, like the kind of the moment that we're in. You know, I think a part also, while we were so excited to return to the show, you know, like for us, I was actually weird. I was talking about this with a friend yesterday like I start I'm watching this, I'm watching the changes in media, people come in into the space making stuff that like, to be frank, I've always kind of dreamed of seeing or listening to. And the thing that I'm so happy about is that you know, I don't know how to shut off the brain, the part of my brain is trying to understand where it's headed, and figure out how I feel about it. And so, you know, it's so awesome to kind of have that space where we can do that. And I think even one of the things we realized is that looking kind of back at, you know, both The Nod and For Colored Nerds, we were doing a version of kind of that same thing. We've often talked about it feeling a bit like a time capsule. And so you know, I'm happy that you came to this came to Girlboss in this moment, because I'm also so curious about where it goes and like then we can you know, even selfishly, I can look back and kind of be like, listen to that, like, Oh, it's so interesting that that's where we were considering, like wherever we end up because look at the news house, it's kind of like we have no idea. The world is crazy. Dan Runcie 28:51 Oh, yeah, I think the time capsule piece is a great way to play it. Because yeah, as you put it, we are in this era where so much is changing right now with Black Media, and who knows what we may be talking about in 2025, right? Maybe there's a different type of trope, maybe things are better. And there's, you know, less, you know, of a need to dig into tropes. But I think there's one thing that I do think about that will probably always be a bit of a time capsule itself. Maybe not just for you all, but in general of like how we look at it, and maybe I guess I'd call it the perception of Tyler Perry. Books out and as a business person, and I think we could probably do consider I know he's been a common theme on your shows. And going back and listening to someone else can probably reflect maybe where and I don't want to say their culture because people have such a wide opinion of Tyler Perry even within the black community. Oh, yes. But it's interesting because I think that you all could probably relate to maybe how I think about him and what he's built because on one hand, it is so impressive to see this person that literally built what he was able to create and given the circumstances and As a black business leader, it is inspiring to see that. On the other hand, as people like me that often live on Twitter to log every few days, there's slip time that clip that's like, no Tyler Perry Studios has to be shut down. Because it's some clip of someone wiling out and doing something ridiculous that would never be seen on any other type of broadcast. And you're like, what? But that's part of the basic this. And I mean, I could go on for days about it. But yeah, where are you both right now with Tyler Perry?  Brittany Luse 30:32 My feelings swing like a pendulum about how I feel about Tyler Perry. Like, on one hand, I mean, I'll say this, like, I think the older I get, and the more his legacy like continues on, I really enjoy the camp of Tyler Perry, Tyler Perry. Like almost has no, not almost Tyler Perry has absolutely no shame. Tyler Perry is one of the most shameless performers I've ever seen in my entire life. He leaves it all on the floor, he holds literally looking back, like, I don't even think he has an unexplored idea. In his mind. I think he literally has an idea. I can take action on each of them. And I think that we've seen them meet as possible. So like, I don't know, there's something about like, him just not giving a shit that I really connect to. And he just like leaning in and doing whatever he can to entertain people, maybe second himself first, I think I love that. It's amazing. When Tyler Perry also shows up in somebody else's movie, his acting… like I had never seen Gone Girl until like two years ago. And I watched it and I found myself saying this is just like a white Tyler Perry movie. And then he was in the regular person. Like, Star Wars. I think the Star Wars played a regular person. Yeah, like, I think that is so funny. And I kind of Oh, yeah, yeah. It's funny the level like, I think he kind of knows he's ridiculous. And I like that. I also like, you know, he said a bunch of things about like, how his content is like, it's very accessible in every sense of the word. And also, like he like, does make family entertainment, which like, when you think about like, when we get together, black folks get together to watch movies or play games or have you know, Christmas dinner or whatever, wherever we're going to turn on after that, you kind of do want that multi-generational entertainment that's got a little something for everybody, maybe slightly risky, with a Christian message. It serves a purpose. And he's put so many black actors and not writers. But what I would say something that I found out is that like crew people, like basically like if you're on Tyler Perry crew, if your editor, you're a gaffer, whatever, for what I understand, you're making good money, like he'll pay you in Atlanta, what you would get paid in New York or LA. So it's weird. It's like I have such complex feelings, because obviously, like, he doesn't employ writers at all, which is pretty clear. Even if you didn't know that for a fact, I think it's pretty evident from the work he does employ writers at all. I mean, there's so much to be said about his content and what some people might think of as like it being harmful or holding black people back or engaging stereotypes, especially stereotypes about black women. I mean, all of that stuff is true. But I do find Tyler Perry interesting as somebody who like has built an honest business what I mean, when I say honest business is like, he knows exactly what people want from him. And he gives it to people consistently. He knew somehow that like if people would watch me playing Medea completely made up character, that people would watch grainy bootleg DVDs and be playing Medea and gospel stage place with their families, they absolutely would buy a 15 $20 movie ticket, they absolutely would go to see me in person, like on tour. And they absolutely would tune in if I was on Oprah. And that was a pretty smart way to build a brand. If you look back at it. That's what I mean, when I say that Tyler Perry has an honest business. He provides exactly what he has always promised, and there is something compelling about that. That's where I am today. Eric Eddings 34:18 It's almost like I can't quit him completely. If that makes any sense. Like, you know, to Brittany's point, there's so much he's accomplished so much. And it's so fascinating how he uses that those accomplishments to facilitate by where there's growth, his own growth, the growth company where growth is in the medium, whatever, and it's just so hard to pin down his reasons, you know, saying in terms for any one thing, but you can't help but be fascinated by it like yeah, it's one of those people like I respect what he's accomplished so much and you know, they're even don't get twisted. Another big piece of this is that I try to have very complex thoughts about what I want the world to be. And I try to educate myself, I try to really, you know, say, like, do the work of understanding who I want to be in the world, but also try not to be above at all, if that makes any sense. And I think like with Tyler Perry, sometimes people can, like, turn their nose, like the folks who enjoy his content, because of all the things that come along with it. But also, like, we can't lose the fact that like, people are being moved by this in some way. And I try not to be above I try to meet them where they're at, would I challenge him to maybe make a few changes? Absolutely. If I had the opportunity, you know, do I think that like, you know, maybe even those people were in his audience deserve a tiny bit better? Absolutely. But guess what they're happy. And you know, like that, it gives me the thing that I can connect with that, you know, that cousin who I only see at the family reunion or, you know, I'm saying like on will help more recently, the family Zune call or whatever we're doing, you know, nowadays, like, it gives me that thing that I know, I can connect with him about, you know, and I send my thoughts about everything else related to the movie to the group test, you know. So yeah, you got to respect it, even though you also maybe have to critique it. Dan Runcie 36:06 100%. I mean, look at how he's got about just being unapologetic. I think back to that clip that he had with Kenya Barris, where Kenya Barris said something to the effect, you know, I'm always making shows that I'm trying to seek white people's approval or rotten tomatoes or whatever. Tyler Perry's, like, I don't give a fuck about Rotten Tomatoes, or any of this stuff. Like I'm making it for the people I make it for right. And then you see Tyler Perry, like two years later getting honored by the Oscars institution that he totally does not care what they have to say like, and this is how he's built himself. And there is something amazing with that, right. And, Eric, I do like the point that you brought up regarding how it can be easy for people, especially within, you know, black folks to turn their nose up or look down on the people that clearly enjoy this content. And in some ways, it also makes me think of no different than how in, you know, the most recent election in the primaries, people were turning their nose up at some of the black voters in the south and who they supported as the, you know, Democratic candidate and it's like, no, like, you can't just, you know, play this elitistness of how people look at their content. And I think there is, you know, to your point as well, Brittany a beauty and who else can relate. I mean, I've talked to my mom about Tyler Perry, and you know, she's a big woman in her 60s, and you know, she'll watch beat the browns, and she's no problem with it. And I think, you know, it's great that she does that, right. And I think, you know, just being able to have that kind of comment places like okay, yes. Why does this exist? I'm still gonna laugh when somebody takes a clip of it and posts it on Twitter and be like, What the hell was this? But, no.  Brittany Luse 37:47 But no, I mean, to this day, sometimes me my turn off the dinner scene, like the dinner reveal scene from Why did I get married? I mean, you can just turn that on anytime a day. And you'll be laughing for 50 minutes straight. I'm sorry, that was a good movie. When I first started dating my fiance I think maybe five weeks into us dating five weeks, and I got the flu. And he took care of me, which is like a, you know, thing that definitely set him apart. But the thing is, like, the first thing that he did was turn on why didn't get married? He was like, Oh, you're sick a bit. Let me turn on this tell I could have put you in a better place. And he was absolutely right. There's something about this stuff. It's just, it's comforting. Eric Eddings 38:31 It works. It definitely works Dan Runcie 38:32 it definitely does. Alright, well, before we let you go. I wanted to talk a bit about hip hop. Of course, this is an area that I do cover with the podcast and it's just an interesting thing for me because both have my personal interest of someone that like anyone that music I grew up listening to in high school and college definitely will always have a special place for me, but I'm covering now and looking at a lot of people whose music I may not necessarily seek out but I'm still you know, I'm following to make sure that I can, you know, not just be as subjective as I can. But obviously, you know, it's hard not to do that. But I guess it's people that are also in the media space. And you know, also you know, I guess I'll include both hip hop and R&B together, it'd be good to hear you know, what's your relationship like with current music made by current artists compared to the music that also may have been popular when you were in high school or college? What is that relationship like for you? Eric Eddings 39:30 It's funny. We've been talking about this a little bit just as a group as a show team, this exact point, at least for me, you know, it's a really kind of interesting moment because like, I was somebody you know, back in the like, blog era Hip Hop time, you know, I was like, I caught every night right post you know, I'm saying like, I was literally because I google readers, I would make sure to click everyone listens to like first 30 seconds of the mixtape or whatever to see if I liked it, and then you know, kind of come back to listen more later, I got time for it now, you know, like, there's just too much going on. And so, you know, I found myself at the place where I have learned that like a lot of people get like once they kind of hit their mid-30s actually start apparently retreating to the things that made them most comfortable. So I feel myself doing that, but also, to your point, like I feel conflicted about it, because I'm like, Oh, shit, I'm not trying to tap out, I'm not trying to, like push myself back from the table, you know, I'm still here. And so, you know, I do try to catch some of the kind of newer artists who are kind of coming out and watch, again, for the trends of what I see. And so you're, I'll still try to listen a little bit online Fridays when stuff comes out. Like I'm trying to, like hear a little bit, but not all the time, like, there have been folks who have kind of risen above and often it's the first kind of connected to the people to the artists who I kind of evangelize from a little bit before. So like, Baby Keem, for example, I've been like a huge fan of like, you know, some of his like tracks that come out on the album, he obviously you know, his Kendrick's cousin, you know, but just like that kind of folks who are kind of in the orbit of others that No, I can feel most confident about in terms of whether the sound is going to be kind of what I'm looking for. Because also hip hop is really changing. And like, you know, it's changing around me in a way that I don't always connect with, but I respect that power and the fact that like, you know, it's a living breathing thing, it's gonna become something else. And so, you know, I'm trying to understand a little bit of the trajectory of kind of where they're going to be able to just understand how my relationship to it is changing. So yeah, it's a complicated time. I'm not like, I think I told Brittany this at this moment, listen to more r&b than I have ever in my life. Dan Runcie 41:41 Are we talking about modern like R&B artists or like R&B back in the day, Eric Eddings 41:45 All of it, I'm talking about, you know, like, everything from the help that rerelease, hotels to, you know, Jazmine Sullivan, to you know, going back, and I have literally I call it like, oh, people cookout music, their playlist has been good, that placement, plenty of work for me, you know, so it really runs the range. And some of that comes from just like the volatility of the world right now, you know, but I don't want to say that, like, I don't know, I think Hip Hop reflects more than what we can consume. And so what I have been seeing recently has sometimes stressed me out, you know, and so I found myself leaning on other genres, but I do still have hope that they're gonna swing back, and there's probably gonna be somebody else Hill, everybody's talking about Kendrick coming back this year. So maybe, you know, he can inspire some folks, we'll see. Because, sorry, I rambled Brittany Luse 42:28 As far as music. So I really like music that I can sing along to and kind of what Eric was saying. Like, I like to say things that like, especially like I like listening to, at this point in my life, rap and hip hop, that makes me feel aspirational. And I feel like female rappers right now are the only people who are rapping about things that actually you'd want to do. They're like, oh, I want you know, they're basically like, I want to have sex with a really hot guy. I want to make a lot of money. I want to buy expensive things. And I want to go on a trip. I'm like, wow, yeah. I mean, I identify with that until like, they say, a really poetic way. And they put a great beat. I'm like, This is what I'm talking about this. I understand. They're always just like, I'm so flying. So cute. I'm so beautiful. I'm gonna have it? To me, this never goes out of style. I think that sometimes when I hear some of the young, these young men, everything is like Xanny, Xanny, Xanny. And my thought is like, I know, I'm getting really getting older because I'm just like, Oh, my God, they are stressing me out. Like, are you drinking water? Are you taking breaks? Do you have a trip, buddy? Like, you should not be taking all these empty bars by yourself and being in a club, and I tell anybody is not safe. But also like, some, like, I want to listen to things that are gonna like make me feel good or ease my stress. And I think to Eric's point, right now, I don't feel like listening to a lot of younger male artists at this point eases my stress. That's not to say that I don't think there are quite a few people that I hear that I'm like, oh, man, that sounds really good. That sounds interesting. But I also don't follow music as much as I used to when I was younger, I was kind of into like, some of like the block hip hop. I used to follow a blind eye for the kids. And I was always downloading all the stuff and listening to it. And it was fun. But like, I didn't have like the type of bills I have. Now. I have more energy. I'm tired now. And so I think even sometimes deciding to try something new feels like it can take energy out of me when I'm like I can just go straight to something that I know that I'm really going to enjoy. So because I love music that I can sing along to. I have always been a pretty strong r&b listener. My parents are really an r&b I've actually found myself enjoying present r&b and real like real good singers like a Jazmine Sullivan Ari Lennox, JoJo, like people who really can think I do like to listen to music. I love pop. But you know, speaking specifically, to slightly close up. I've been listening to a lot of older r&b stuff that like I will hear on like a 70s mix or something like that. And it'll like take me back to being in a car of my parents on a Saturday night coming home from one of their friend's parties, hearing like a quiet storm set on the radio, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I haven't heard the song in 25 years.  Like, I've been listening to a lot of that stuff. And I don't know, it just puts me in a good state. And I feel like some of it really just speaks to my emotions, maybe that I'm experiencing as in like, as I'm getting deeper into adulthood as I'm like a real adult now at 34 when I wasn't really 27, 24, 22. I think that there's like a, I don't know, like something about where the melody hits. The lyrical complexity is just I don't know, I understand basically, now are my parents were like 35, 40. And listening to Angela Bofill. Late at night, driving workplaces. So I mean, but what I will say is that my opinion on what music is popping right now, I'm actually I don't care that much about my opinion, even if I don't listen to everything. I really want to know what young people are responding to. Because I think what they think of their music is a lot more important than what I think of their music. Like, it's fine to me that like, I don't connect with it, because it's not meant I'm not meant to connect with it. Like my time of wearing you know, as the kids say, like the Olivia Pope business casual in the club, I had a stat investment for over 21. I worked for a party at Rutgers in 2007. Those days are behind me, thankfully. But yeah, I think I don't know. That's what part is more like tick tock tick tock, like playlists, or even just like seeing what's hot on the charts. Keeps me up with like, artists that young people are super into. And also even sometimes on TikTok, there'll be people who are way younger than me, like 1015 years younger, who like to make Top Five artists I'm listening to right now. And I get to hear snippets of their music. Like, I'm just interested in what they think about their music, because like, honestly, what they think about their music and how it speaks to them. That says a lot more to me about their, like, where culture is headed, and what they're into that like me listening to something and being like, What the hell is this? You know, I'm Auntie now and it's fine. Dan Runcie 47:09 Yeah, that's the exact point there. I think that I, like, in my view, group chats, people will do this thing. Every year, someone will post the annual XXL freshman class, and then they're like, Hey, do y'all even know when you these names in here? And I'm like, bro, you're 39 with you. They're not meant for you. Like, yeah, this literally isn't meant for you. And so I think about that piece, right? And maybe even more. So now. It's like, I think that some of these artists the same way that media general is just becoming more niche, they know, their audience, they're leaning into it even more. So that may be some of the forced mass marketing that they would have been pushed to do, you know, 20, 30 years ago before. Eric Eddings 47:49 To your point, they're smarter, you know, saying you don't need to, and also how people think about what a hugely successful career in music is different and slightly now, you know, like, there is not actually the same scale as there used to be or if that scale exists is only for a much smaller amount of folks. So like, I think people are coming into the game. Now, the game sound like I'm trying to be cool, but like, people are coming into hip hop now trying to, you know, like, sustain themselves and have a long career as opposed to always being, you know, trying to necessarily be like the person at like, the top the charts. And I think that actually is really great. I think because again, the sustaining is a part that is really interesting, because we've seen so many of our, you know, favorite rappers or musicians period just kind of like burn themselves out or get burned by the industry. And then they, you know, disappear after a few albums. So yeah, you know, like the like, I'm still shocked futures is produced it, you know, he's had a long career, but like, I think there are a lot of. Brittany Luse 48:48 vVery true. Eric Eddings 48:51 But yeah, there's so many others. I'm like, I want them to be able to have the longevity in this space, especially a lot of the female rappers out here now, I am excited to see them. So in control of the business as well, because of how, like, you know, they're smarter about what that's going to protect for them later on. Man is like getting her shit together. She learned about the run me off the paint. Like, I know what the contract the paper is supposed to Eric Eddings 49:18 The sauce was good. It was good. Brittany Luse 49:19 It was it was great. Yeah. Dan Runcie 49:23 Oh, man, we could talk about, you know, hip hop all day. But I know we've run out of time. But before we let you go, I feel like that last point you made was probably a good note to just tie things up, right? People are getting smarter about knowing their audiences leaning into it. And I think that speaks a lot to what you both have been able to build over the years with For Colored Nerds with The Nod and then you know, back with for color nerds. Again, I think that having an audience that has been with you this long, just speaks to the work that you've done in all of the that goes into it. So thank you again for coming on. And I mean, both as a listener and as a fellow podcaster, it's been great to watch both of your charity. Thank you. It was great. Eric Eddings 50:05 last night. Yeah, seriously, Brittany Luse 50:07 You do great work/ You made this infographic like a flowchart about ESA raised businesses and how they Yeah, like how each one feeds the other. Like talking about why she still has the Patreon how she's thinking about radio and this was probably like three or four years ago or something like that. It was like instant follow. So it's cool to be here with you Dan Runcie 50:31 Thank you. That means a lot. Really appreciate it, really appreciate it.  If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link text it to a friend posted in your group chat posted in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcasts, go ahead rate the podcast give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. A lot of creators talk about owning their intellectual property and distribution, but co-hosts of the For Colored Nerds podcast — Eric Eddings and Brittany Luse — actually went and made it happen, by any means necessary. The two left the Spotify-owned Gimlet Media network in 2020, leaving behind The Nod show (and its IP) which they had built up since 2017. As “free agents”, the duo made ownership a mandate in its next podcast deal.


Stitcher was happy to oblige, bringing the two together in a homecoming of sorts. Before Gimlet, Eric and Brittany began podcasting with Stitcher which included the first iteration of the For Colored Nerds podcast. Now it’s back in its second form — still with a heavy dose of discourse about the intersection of pop and Black culture, but now with a dash of personal opinions from the two on ongoing issues as they see it.


For Colored Nerds is one example of how the media industry is transforming in real-time. While Eric and Brittany got what they wanted, it wasn’t easy. The two joined me on this episode of Trapital to discuss this laborious process that included lawyers and agents — two things most creators aren’t privy to. Here’s everything we discussed in this episode:


[3:07] Why Choose Stitcher Over Other Networks? 

[5:52] Changing Landscape Of Creator Ownership

[9:22] Biggest Barriers To Having A Fair Contract

[11:31] Will Future Podcast Networks Embrace Creator Ownership?

[18:23] How Does The Podcast Balance What Topics To Discuss On The Show?

[22:10] What Makes Podcasting So Special

[28:51] The Polarization Of Tyler Perry 

[37:06] The Perils Of An “Elitist” Mindset

[42:28] Relationship With Present-Day Music Compared To Past Favorites

[49:23] Knowing Your Audience



This episode is brought to you by Koji, the best “link in bio” tool. It is trusted by Grammy winners, chart-topping hitmakers, and more. Join 185,000+ creators. Check it out for free: koji.to/trapitalpodcast


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Brittany Luse, IG: @bmluse | Eric Eddings, Twitter: @eeddings | For Colored Nerds Podcast, IG & Twitter: @ForColoredNerds

 

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 



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Eric Eddings 00:00

What the industry kind of needs to understand is that people now, like, require that flexibility. Because so many creators understand different parts of the trajectory. Everybody's not necessarily trying to be, you know, at the pinnacle of podcasts or like on the front page of, you know, iTunes every single day. There are different levels. Some people are having a podcast, they want it as a significant companion to maybe something else that they're building. And so they understand what place that podcast could fit into their lives and into their brand or ecosystem.


Dan Runcie 00:38

Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.


On today's episode, I'm joined by Brittany Luse and Eric Eddings. They're the host of the podcast, For Colored Nerds, which peels back the layers of black culture. I've been following Brittany and Eric's work for a while now, back when they had their podcast on gimlet media, The Nod. And they also had the Quibi Show after that. And they recently relaunched their old podcast, For Colored Nerds. So we talked about that, we talked about the journey and how Brittany and Eric have been so open and transparent about podcast ownership and some of the back and forth challenges that have happened not just with them, but with other podcasters that ultimately what they hope to see in this industry in the future. We also talked a bit more about how they go about thinking of their content, some of the common themes that they'll discuss on the shows, and one of the things that they discuss, which is a topic I've often discussed on Trapital as well is Tyler Perry. If you've read through Apple, you know that I'm more so, talking about Tyler for what he's achieved from a business perspective, which I've always found inspiring and great. But on the content side, it's a little different, because I think many people do have some conflicting opinions about how he's gone about things that he put out, and, but also recognizing that there was an audience that Tyler has unapologetically been willing to serve, and what that means for him as a business leader, and how that obviously has led to his success. So we talked a lot about that. 


And we also talked more broadly about hip hop as well. Folks like us, who I think grew up in the 90s and 2000s, and may still resonate with so many of the artists from that era, how do we relate to current day hip hop? And is it our place to relate to some of the current artists? So we talk about that, and a whole lot more. Here's my chat with Brittany and Eric. 


All right, today, we got Brittany and Eric from the For Colored Nerds Podcast. I’ve been a big fan. I've been following their work for a while, and also their journey. And before we start, I do just want to say thank you to both of you, because I feel like you've been so open about so much in the podcasting space. And I think a lot of people learned a lot from that. So thank you both it’s much appreciated.


Brittany Luse 03:00

Thank you.


Eric Eddings 03:01

Thank you for having us. Yeah, it's been a wild ride in this industry. But it's been good. 


Dan Runcie 03:07

Definitely. And I know for you that your journey has been well documented, you're back on the podcast that you had started years back with For Colored Nerds. And now you're with Stitcher, and I'd love to start there because I'm sure that you got hit up by a number of different outlets or networks that likely wanted to partner with y'all. What was it about stitcher that made you want to work with them?


Eric Eddings 03:31

Wow. I mean, I felt like there was a lot I mean. To your point, we did a bit of the tour, I guess you could say, in terms of meeting with tons of distributors, you know, after our Quibi show kind of wound down after, hell, after Quibi. Went down a rabbit...


Brittany Luse 03:47

It happens on the same day.


Eric Eddings 03:50

Yeah, exactly. But no, with Stitcher, I think there were a few things that lined up pretty quickly. They were the only ones who who started the conversation, knowing that we were coming in with a desire to own our show, which is funny, because as to your point before, like, we have been very open about like some of the conflicts that we you know, had around pursuing ownership in particular. And so I think like that changed the conversation in a way where we then, actually, could talk more freely and comfortably about what we wanted the show to be, you know, because again, there was not that fear of like, you know, will it be ours? And will we maybe have to make something different, you know, after the fact if we don't own and kind of control that so I think that was like one big piece of it. I'm curious Brittany, like what you would add


Brittany Luse 04:37

I mean, a big part of it, too, is like the team. I mean, one of the people that we got to you know, talk with coming into Stitcher when we were just sort of in the initial feeling each other out stage is someone who turned out to be the cousin of someone we met a few years ago and like hit it off with, Natalie Well who's amazing, she's literally just made us feel comfortable from like moment one. Also Peter Clowney, who is, Eric knows this, proper title. I feel terrible because I can't remember anyone's proper title. Because Eric works at Stitcher as an executive, and I am but a lowly, what's the word? I paid a vendor, I'm a vendor. And so I'm not always proven everything happens within a company. Peter Clowney, who is like I think the VP of content at Stitcher, he was the very first editor that I ever had, like podcast editor, like the very first edit. And it is like a term in podcasting, where the team will sit and listen, or be sent a version of an episode, and leave comments and share them with each other in order to make the episode better and get to that next draft. The first time I ever did that, was with Peter Clowney and that was 2015. So, you know, I have this full-circle moment when in 2021, he's the person who's really extending the offer for us to come and join Stitcher. That just felt really, right. 


Brittany Luse 05:52

Also, you know, we first launched For Colored nerds with Stitcher, we have an incredible executive producer, Kameel Stanley, who is basically like a legend of public radio in St. Louis and is just a hell of an executive producer. She, I mean, she kept like, the first I think we had her for what, maybe three, four months, when we were first really ramping up, she kept things together, and she kept things moving. Yeah. And she was somebody who we had already, we've been interviewed by before, I think the previous year with regard to rights and ownership and IP and everything like that. She is just a fantastic journalist and just was such an amazing guide. So it was just so amazing to have this experience where we had so many sharp people who we had either met before had a relationship with before or had a meaningful link to coming in. And it just kind of made things feel a lot more familiar. And also to they were just fast. They're just fast. They were like, yeah, they followed up, they were fast. And they were, I don't know, I mean, I think in so many areas of life, like somebody like the person who's just eager to follow up with you and eager to form that connection or cement that relationship. That's usually the person that you want to go with.


Dan Runcie 07:02

That makes sense. Yeah, I hear the relationship side of it. I also hear the ownership side of it too. And especially with the way things are shifting now, sometimes it's still so shocking that it is still such a charged or controversial thing for whether it's podcasters writers or creators in any type of shape too, what, I mean, you're coming in, you have a base, you have plenty of leverage, like how is this still one of these discussions where they want 100% of the thing, and there's not even a discussion about shared or what that could look like. And I mean, it's not just, you always see this at the highest levels, whether it's I think, was 

 Michaela Coel, when she was talking about I May Destroy You when she was going back and forth, whether it was Netflix or HBO on wanting a slice, like, this is something that is clearly a challenge and a difficult thing for people at every scale of this game.



Eric Eddings 07:54

I mean, the industry is shifting, and you know, depending upon what side of the Creator versus like, you know, distributor network, you're on, you maybe view how fast that industry is shifting differently. You know? And it's something that I think the industry has to do a better job at understanding. People are more literate about the trials and tribulations and pitfalls that you can run into trying to create something, and trying to create something that like is distributed to other people, wherever podcasts, movies, music, you know, I'm saying like, we all have the same internet, and like, we've all read the stories and the features. And so people know more of what to ask for. And, you know, the reasons they might have received before about why they, you know, could not or maybe should not deserve, like, you know, the rights to their own content are starting to, you know, finally feel frivolous. And so, you know, I think that thing is changing, I think it is still though a game of leverage, and it's still, you know, depends on what you have in your corner, sadly, to be able to kind of push the issue, you know, with the distributor, with just whoever you're partnering with to be able to get what you want. And yeah, there sadly, is still a lot of.. We got reached out to today about this same, this very same issue. And it's that's something that happens fairly frequently. So there's a lot of work that still has to happen.


Dan Runcie 09:15

And on that note, is it people reaching out to you asking you for advice to be like, Hey, I know you all want Yes. Any thoughts?


Brittany Luse 09:22

Yes. I mean, yeah, emails, text messages, phone calls, DMS, I had somebody reach out to me via text on behalf of one of their friends yesterday, wondering about the same thing. And I mean, there's, you know, we try to give as much advice as we can. But at the end of the day, the best advice you can get in those situations definitely comes from like a legal professional. Typically, those are the people that you want to defer to. We are not we are not those. That's why sometimes I podcast people like what would you guys see what I'm like, You know what, I am not in the business of giving legal advice, but my biggest piece of legal advice is to get a lawyer. But yeah, I mean, obviously I share a little bit more people than that. But yeah, I think because we've been so open, sometimes people that we do not even know will reach out to us out of the blue, just to be like, Hey, this is something that I know that you went through, do you have 5, 10, 15, 30 minutes to talk with me and kind of guide me through this process? I mean, I will say the thing that I always say, which is that these contracts should not be so difficult that a regular person could not pick up and read them. I think that there's obviously how do I put it, I mean, a barrier to being able to have a fair contract is having the financial resources and also the institutional knowledge relationships, to be able to get a lawyer like that something that we did not have, I don't think I know when I first started working at Gimlet back in 2015. I didn't have the financial resources to hire a lawyer. Yeah, it wasn't an option, I wouldn't have known how to find an entertainment lawyer. Because before then, I was working as like, I mean, marketing manager was the title, but that didn't line up with what I was doing at my job. So yeah, I wouldn't have had like the relationships, the understanding, I wouldn't have known how to find an entertainment lawyer. And I definitely didn't have the money coming into working there to have that. So I think that like, you know, there is a certain level of like, eat, we're all being finessed a little bit, by the fact that people have to get not feel like they have to, but really, truly have to have agents and lawyers and money upfront, to be able to spend on having somebody basically be their pitbull, and get into the ring and fight for the contract that they deserve.


Dan Runcie 11:31

Yeah, it's interesting with podcasting, specifically, because I look at the music industry, or even with writing to some extent, I have seen a few more of these hybrid models where it's okay, you can release your music on this platform, we offer a little bit more of a distribution push and a little bit more of a network per se than you would get if you just did it solely on your own. But you could still maintain the ownership, we just get, you know, a set cut or whatever it is. And we've seen this in music, whether it's record labels like Empire that started with a similar type of mindset, or some of the others, even with writing, I've started to see some creative things. But with podcasting, specifically, it may be part of it's just, I haven't seen it myself and what I've seen, but I still haven't quite seen that network that is being ready to be as front and center be like, Hey, we're here, if you want to do an exclusive deal, but you maintain your ownership and we do a licensing deal, we could do that. Or if you want to have a set split, this is what our network is known for. I haven't quite seen that same thing in podcasting. And obviously, I know part of the challenge is the value is the ownership that they have because then they can go get sold to whoever, but I think part of me still waiting to see that, like, is that going to be a standard for one of the next, you know, rising networks.


Brittany Luse 12:51

We are waiting to see that


Eric Eddings 12:56

Everybody's watching. Yeah, I mean, look, there are networks. I mean, even Stitcher, I don't say this, you know, to not trying to be like a corporate shill, but like, you know, we engage a bunch of different types of deals. Yeah, I work as a creative executive there. And, you know, so what that means is like, there are some things that we, you know, own outright, there are some things that stitcher owns outright, there are some things that you know, they license, you know, and just rip the ads, there are some things that you know, are hybrid, I think what you don't want, even that, for its worth is actually can be rare to have all those different types of like deals. But I think in general, what the industry kind of needs to understand is that people now, like, require that flexibility, because, you know, so many creators understand different parts of the trajectory, you know, everybody's not necessarily trying to be, you know, at the pinnacle of, you know, podcasts or like, on the front page of, you know, iTunes every single day, there are different levels, some people are having the podcast, they want it as a significant companion to maybe something else that they're building. And so they understand what place that podcast could fit into their life and into their, you know, brand or ecosystem. And the company that is willing to like, be most flexible to that is going to get that person you know, like, because they're creating that comfort, they're creating that like space to say like, I want to work with you so much of entertainment, what people haven't realized behind the scenes, it's not necessarily I want to work with you, it kind of wants to work for them, you know, and to that degree, like, you know, your contract reflects that. And I'm so excited by the shift that I see kind of happening in all entertainment-related industries. We're seeing a lot more, hell, sports, you know, we just see a lot more creator or athlete lead, you know, like deals but things were basically the power in the leverage is becoming more equal, slowly. 


Brittany Luse 14:54

I think the thing that's tricky for me is the deals that are fair and reasonable exist, and I'll say that we received a pretty good one from Stitcher. I mean, like from jump, when we received the contract, it was like, all fit on one page, double triple space. It was mostly plain English. I understood it when I read it. And we felt good about it. And it felt like it was befitting of like, how much air can I put into the show? And who really owns it? And I will say like, it was really nice to get that deal now, but my hope is like, you know, people are like, when will we get there? What do you think 'there' is there for me quote, unquote, there for me is when me and Eric back in 2014, we first started the show would have been handed a deal like the one we got last year in 2021. And so like a or even back in 2017, when we first launched The Nod, me and Eric at that point was been given new contracts. Because then that very clearly showed that was really the DNA it was based off For Colored Nerds, come on a show about Black culture hosted by me and Eric, now we based it off of something else. Are you kidding me? That's what it was. I think that that to me is like when the equity has really gotten there, and it is going to take time, I wish that it didn't take the time it is going to take time. 


Brittany Luse 14:54

But even I will say this though, there are people usually like white, a lot of times male. And I was gonna say like, usually they have a large following. But sometimes it's like, I don't even know if that's what's going into the business decision that's being made when somebody you know, offers, like some white guy who has a podcast a bunch of money to be able to, like make that thing forever gives that person a really good deal, or some sort of like exclusive, you know, whatever. There are people who have been getting fair deals all this time. I just would like to see sort of like the bar for that either be lower to just like I say lower, I mean, just like allowing more people in right now the bar is basically like, are you why are you guy? Are you famous? Or like, yes. Do you want to share my microphone, I would like to see sort of rather, I would like to see that avenue broadened. And that's what I mean, when we're there, like Success for me is just like not having to have relationships years in the game, or be like a white guy with a podcast to be able to get access to the type of deal that we have now.


Dan Runcie 17:19

Yeah. And I think that framing makes complete sense. Right? When you first started this and had the idea, you should have had this in place. And then further when you're signing a deal with Gimlet or even you know, with Quibi, or whoever. There's enough, not just you know, layman's terms, but there's also just enough commonality that those things can happen. And I think that also makes me think a bit about the show itself. And maybe just some of the slight differences between The Nod and For Colored Nerds, The Nod, at least my impression is always a bit more like, hey, here is the latest thing that is happening right now in black culture. And here's our take on it. Well, let's discuss it, I think For Colored Nerds has that as well. But I think you also mix in some evergreen topics that have always come in which I think I always enjoy hearing. And I'm curious, from your perspective, how has the process been about determining the topics of that balance, because I'm sure there are the evergreen topics that you may want to hit. There are also timely things that likely you may want to dive into. But then you also, you know, have things that you're just personally interested in compared to what you may know, the audience would really want to hear or what you know what drives engagement. So yeah, how was that, balancing that piece of the event for you?


Eric Eddings 18:39

You don't know how timely that question is. Because we are always kind of managing our relationship with it. It is a balance. And it's a conversation that is kind of always happening. I think, to start where you did in terms of the comparison, I think how we thought about The Nod is more so we were trying to reflect what we saw. And I think For Colored Nerds is more definitively how we think if that makes any sense. I didn't and I know Brittany, you might disagree, but Yes, just now. Yeah. But when we're thinking about that conversation, basically how we think and how to reflect that to our audience, you know, we are looking at things that like could or either maybe a lot of things start evergreen and become more topical, if that makes any sense. Because also that's kind of how I think our conversations often work we're just kind of talking about things that we've noticed or things that we've seen and they start to kind of build momentum towards like something that could be like on the show and like with it, for example, we consume dating reality shows at an unhealthy clip, we are committed to that genre. And you know, we're always kind of talking about like what we saw how we feel about you know, any given show or episode and it's starting to kind of come to the point, I have this idea that feels like a connects kind of like what I think about all those things, and then bringing like what or, you know, I actually had This idea I was thinking this. And so we start to build that for the episode. And then as we get closer to, you know, having the conversation, we start to realize like, Okay, well, what are the things happening right now that relate to this larger conversation? How can we incorporate that and you know, that changes things as well? So we're always shuffling Jesus, always shuffling our calendar, because that process changes, you know, you might the Evergreen thing might need more time to become a little topical, the topical thing, you know, feel too much like a flash in the pan need to be more evergreen. So, you know, shout out to our producer Alexis, for, you know, really like just kind of rolling with how much of the changes we, you know, sometimes need to make to the schedule. But if we're in conversation with our audience, we want to make sure that we're reacting to that in as healthy a way as possible.


Brittany Luse 20:49

Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's tricky. Just because like, on one hand, I don't know podcasting is so interesting in that it is one of the few truly long-form digital media. So you know what I mean? Like, other than maybe, like, reading long-form journalism, which I think we've learned over time, not everybody does. That's part of the reason why we've gotten to the place that we are in society right now. Podcasts are digital, and so on some level, they can feel kind of ephemeral, but they live on the internet for so long, in like a well-indexed, centralized place. And they're long. People will listen to two hours. I mean, people I mean, me, I will listen to two hours, that type of just BS, like nothing, like people just talking about old gossip. Like, I have no problem that, for me is something that I totally enjoy. And there's so many, the success of so many shows out there is really just people wanting to listen to someone talk sometimes regardless of whether it's evergreen or of the moment. And so it's tricky, because like we do find ourselves straddling that line a lot of the time, sometimes, I think we managed to like really kind of, like get it really right and hit something at that moment where it just feels really fresh, you know, and really, like well thought out, even though it's coming out like right, as the moment that sounds like something is kind of cresting out there in the zeitgeist. But I mean, that still is kind of like at odds with how we think about engaging some of the topics that we do on our show, you know, we try to be thoughtful, we try to be careful in making sure that we're expressing ourselves in a way that's clear in a way that's not going to be harmful to others, in a way that's going to be entertaining. And that does take time. So sometimes, you know, sometimes we'll be chasing our tails a little bit. Trying to get stuff out the door. Yeah, but I don't know, it's like, we try to have even some of our most topical episodes still have that sustenance to them, that will get somebody to want it, you know, come back and listen to it for a second, third, fifth time, or even discover it three, four months down the line, even our most topical of the moment episodes, have that extra something to them, that keeps people you know, feeling engaged long after the moment of that episode has passed. 


Dan Runcie 23:06

For me the episode that you all did that. I think it's that exact point, Brittany, is the Girlboss in the City episode. I feel like when I heard that, I wanted to listen, because I was like, Wait, is this what I think should be by the terrible? Okay, well elicited a demo, I heard I was like, Okay, I see the trend. That makes sense. Okay. Like, and then, you know, just hearing, you know, your take, and I know, you know, just some of the other examples, I'm like, Yes, like, that makes 100% sense. And I think what makes it resonate, not just is it the trend itself, but it also I think, as a listener for me makes me think about, okay, what are some other trends that are like that, because I think so many of the things that we may think may be celebratory, especially in this past six years, where I think we've seen a great influx of more black media and more black representation, especially whether it's with your Netflix or with your streaming services. That said, there are still plenty of, you know, opportunities and holes and tropes and things to push back on. So I've been thinking about that piece ever since you all put that up.


Eric Eddings 24:09

Thankfully, like, it was one of the things, most of our episodes, also when we're making them, I don't know if Brittany feels this way, but I often feel a bit kind of crazy, because we'll have an idea. It's not like we don't really deal and hot takes that's kind of why Brittany was like, you know, we take our time we try to make sure we're, you know, fair, we do our research. And so, you know, sometimes when we come upon a thing where we're like, Okay, now this is the take, and we see this trend, we feel like we can define it and then there's that moment actually right after in between having recorded or talk through the episode that we're going to record and it coming out where I feel crazy because now I'm like, I see it everywhere. And it doesn't it's like you know, like almost like they live where you have the sunglasses all you see like people as aliens. It's kind of like that. And so, you know, with that episode it was really exciting to kind of make those types of connections. Because like that genre I have been consuming not as a genre, I have been just like catching pieces of it. And it wasn't until like being in conversation with Britney, that I'm realizing, Wait, this is a genre. And you know, when you're thinking about that, that means something might change in terms of how you consume it. And so like, you know, a lot of the surprise I had or like, I was, you know, Brittany was explaining this thing or how she feels about her genre before it's worth, as you hear me, I'm coming to it, you know, I'm saying like, I am embracing it to kind of formulate my own ideas. And I think, yeah, I think the audience appreciates being able to hear kind of both sides of that, like the person who has, like, you know, who feels like they, they know, their I know my shit, I have figured it out, I see it, and then that person's like, Well, wait, actually, oh, shit. Like, you know, like that tug of war, I think can be really, really fun. It happens in so many different ways. Like, you know, back and forth, which is, you know, part of what's so fun about show.


Brittany Luse 26:00

Yeah, I'm really glad that you respond to that episode, because, like, sometimes, we'll be putting stuff out and it's like, okay, I know this is interesting to me. Like, you know, like, Oh, get out here on a limb talking about you know, all these white women and Sex in the City on this For Colored Nerds show you know, I'm like, how are people going to respond? We did an episode more recently about me looking at like moms throughout pop culture and how my favorite mom on TV right now is Pamela Adlon on better things, a white woman. And I'm like, I tweeted before the episode came out, I was like, Look, by these episodes, gonna be bought one of my favorite white women, but I need y'all to trust me. And it came out on March 1, and someone tried to catch me they were like, don't do this during Black History Month. And I was like, it's gonna be March 1. But yeah, I mean, sometimes it's a little, it's a little stressful to think about, you know, like, we have so many conversations, me and Eric, and also us with Alexis William, our producer, like we have so many conversations as a team. Just like pinging things back and forth, we have a group chat, where we send articles, messy stuff from the internet, Twitter, beef. I'd like to talk about this thing. It said, when we have episodes like that, it sometimes feels like we're like letting people into like, I don't know, it's like opening up your medicine cabinet, or you're like utility closet for somebody, it's like I'm going to show you something might be a little weird, but we'll see how you respond. So it's really nice to hear from you. Like, as somebody who is like both has their finger on the pulse of what's happening, sort of like immediate entertainment. But also you don't strike me as much of a Girlboss. But it's nice to know that you felt the episode as well.


Eric Eddings 27:39

The other thing you spoke to the moment a bit, and I think is important to kind of come back to that, like the kind of the moment that we're in. You know, I think a part also, while we were so excited to return to the show, you know, like for us, I was actually weird. I was talking about this with a friend yesterday like I start I'm watching this, I'm watching the changes in media, people come in into the space making stuff that like, to be frank, I've always kind of dreamed of seeing or listening to. And the thing that I'm so happy about is that you know, I don't know how to shut off the brain, the part of my brain is trying to understand where it's headed, and figure out how I feel about it. And so, you know, it's so awesome to kind of have that space where we can do that. And I think even one of the things we realized is that looking kind of back at, you know, both The Nod and For Colored Nerds, we were doing a version of kind of that same thing. We've often talked about it feeling a bit like a time capsule. And so you know, I'm happy that you came to this came to Girlboss in this moment, because I'm also so curious about where it goes and like then we can you know, even selfishly, I can look back and kind of be like, listen to that, like, Oh, it's so interesting that that's where we were considering, like wherever we end up because look at the news house, it's kind of like we have no idea. The world is crazy.


Dan Runcie 28:51

Oh, yeah, I think the time capsule piece is a great way to play it. Because yeah, as you put it, we are in this era where so much is changing right now with Black Media, and who knows what we may be talking about in 2025, right? Maybe there's a different type of trope, maybe things are better. And there's, you know, less, you know, of a need to dig into tropes. But I think there's one thing that I do think about that will probably always be a bit of a time capsule itself. Maybe not just for you all, but in general of like how we look at it, and maybe I guess I'd call it the perception of Tyler Perry. Books out and as a business person, and I think we could probably do consider I know he's been a common theme on your shows. And going back and listening to someone else can probably reflect maybe where and I don't want to say their culture because people have such a wide opinion of Tyler Perry even within the black community. Oh, yes. But it's interesting because I think that you all could probably relate to maybe how I think about him and what he's built because on one hand, it is so impressive to see this person that literally built what he was able to create and given the circumstances and As a black business leader, it is inspiring to see that. On the other hand, as people like me that often live on Twitter to log every few days, there's slip time that clip that's like, no Tyler Perry Studios has to be shut down. Because it's some clip of someone wiling out and doing something ridiculous that would never be seen on any other type of broadcast. And you're like, what? But that's part of the basic this. And I mean, I could go on for days about it. But yeah, where are you both right now with Tyler Perry? 


Brittany Luse 30:32

My feelings swing like a pendulum about how I feel about Tyler Perry. Like, on one hand, I mean, I'll say this, like, I think the older I get, and the more his legacy like continues on, I really enjoy the camp of Tyler Perry, Tyler Perry. Like almost has no, not almost Tyler Perry has absolutely no shame. Tyler Perry is one of the most shameless performers I've ever seen in my entire life. He leaves it all on the floor, he holds literally looking back, like, I don't even think he has an unexplored idea. In his mind. I think he literally has an idea. I can take action on each of them. And I think that we've seen them meet as possible. So like, I don't know, there's something about like, him just not giving a shit that I really connect to. And he just like leaning in and doing whatever he can to entertain people, maybe second himself first, I think I love that. It's amazing. When Tyler Perry also shows up in somebody else's movie, his acting… like I had never seen Gone Girl until like two years ago. And I watched it and I found myself saying this is just like a white Tyler Perry movie. And then he was in the regular person. Like, Star Wars. I think the Star Wars played a regular person. Yeah, like, I think that is so funny. And I kind of Oh, yeah, yeah. It's funny the level like, I think he kind of knows he's ridiculous. And I like that. I also like, you know, he said a bunch of things about like, how his content is like, it's very accessible in every sense of the word. And also, like he like, does make family entertainment, which like, when you think about like, when we get together, black folks get together to watch movies or play games or have you know, Christmas dinner or whatever, wherever we're going to turn on after that, you kind of do want that multi-generational entertainment that's got a little something for everybody, maybe slightly risky, with a Christian message. It serves a purpose. And he's put so many black actors and not writers. But what I would say something that I found out is that like crew people, like basically like if you're on Tyler Perry crew, if your editor, you're a gaffer, whatever, for what I understand, you're making good money, like he'll pay you in Atlanta, what you would get paid in New York or LA.


So it's weird. It's like I have such complex feelings, because obviously, like, he doesn't employ writers at all, which is pretty clear. Even if you didn't know that for a fact, I think it's pretty evident from the work he does employ writers at all. I mean, there's so much to be said about his content and what some people might think of as like it being harmful or holding black people back or engaging stereotypes, especially stereotypes about black women. I mean, all of that stuff is true. But I do find Tyler Perry interesting as somebody who like has built an honest business what I mean, when I say honest business is like, he knows exactly what people want from him. And he gives it to people consistently. He knew somehow that like if people would watch me playing Medea completely made up character, that people would watch grainy bootleg DVDs and be playing Medea and gospel stage place with their families, they absolutely would buy a 15 $20 movie ticket, they absolutely would go to see me in person, like on tour. And they absolutely would tune in if I was on Oprah. And that was a pretty smart way to build a brand. If you look back at it. That's what I mean, when I say that Tyler Perry has an honest business. He provides exactly what he has always promised, and there is something compelling about that. That's where I am today.


Eric Eddings 34:18

It's almost like I can't quit him completely. If that makes any sense. Like, you know, to Brittany's point, there's so much he's accomplished so much. And it's so fascinating how he uses that those accomplishments to facilitate by where there's growth, his own growth, the growth company where growth is in the medium, whatever, and it's just so hard to pin down his reasons, you know, saying in terms for any one thing, but you can't help but be fascinated by it like yeah, it's one of those people like I respect what he's accomplished so much and you know, they're even don't get twisted. Another big piece of this is that I try to have very complex thoughts about what I want the world to be. And I try to educate myself, I try to really, you know, say, like, do the work of understanding who I want to be in the world, but also try not to be above at all, if that makes any sense. And I think like with Tyler Perry, sometimes people can, like, turn their nose, like the folks who enjoy his content, because of all the things that come along with it. But also, like, we can't lose the fact that like, people are being moved by this in some way. And I try not to be above I try to meet them where they're at, would I challenge him to maybe make a few changes? Absolutely. If I had the opportunity, you know, do I think that like, you know, maybe even those people were in his audience deserve a tiny bit better? Absolutely. But guess what they're happy. And you know, like that, it gives me the thing that I can connect with that, you know, that cousin who I only see at the family reunion or, you know, I'm saying like on will help more recently, the family Zune call or whatever we're doing, you know, nowadays, like, it gives me that thing that I know, I can connect with him about, you know, and I send my thoughts about everything else related to the movie to the group test, you know. So yeah, you got to respect it, even though you also maybe have to critique it.


Dan Runcie 36:06

100%. I mean, look at how he's got about just being unapologetic. I think back to that clip that he had with Kenya Barris, where Kenya Barris said something to the effect, you know, I'm always making shows that I'm trying to seek white people's approval or rotten tomatoes or whatever. Tyler Perry's, like, I don't give a fuck about Rotten Tomatoes, or any of this stuff. Like I'm making it for the people I make it for right. And then you see Tyler Perry, like two years later getting honored by the Oscars institution that he totally does not care what they have to say like, and this is how he's built himself. And there is something amazing with that, right. And, Eric, I do like the point that you brought up regarding how it can be easy for people, especially within, you know, black folks to turn their nose up or look down on the people that clearly enjoy this content. And in some ways, it also makes me think of no different than how in, you know, the most recent election in the primaries, people were turning their nose up at some of the black voters in the south and who they supported as the, you know, Democratic candidate and it's like, no, like, you can't just, you know, play this elitistness of how people look at their content. And I think there is, you know, to your point as well, Brittany a beauty and who else can relate. I mean, I've talked to my mom about Tyler Perry, and you know, she's a big woman in her 60s, and you know, she'll watch beat the browns, and she's no problem with it. And I think, you know, it's great that she does that, right. And I think, you know, just being able to have that kind of comment places like okay, yes. Why does this exist? I'm still gonna laugh when somebody takes a clip of it and posts it on Twitter and be like, What the hell was this? But, no. 


Brittany Luse 37:47

But no, I mean, to this day, sometimes me my turn off the dinner scene, like the dinner reveal scene from Why did I get married? I mean, you can just turn that on anytime a day. And you'll be laughing for 50 minutes straight. I'm sorry, that was a good movie. When I first started dating my fiance I think maybe five weeks into us dating five weeks, and I got the flu. And he took care of me, which is like a, you know, thing that definitely set him apart. But the thing is, like, the first thing that he did was turn on why didn't get married? He was like, Oh, you're sick a bit. Let me turn on this tell I could have put you in a better place. And he was absolutely right. There's something about this stuff. It's just, it's comforting.


Eric Eddings 38:31

It works. It definitely works


Dan Runcie 38:32

it definitely does. Alright, well, before we let you go. I wanted to talk a bit about hip hop. Of course, this is an area that I do cover with the podcast and it's just an interesting thing for me because both have my personal interest of someone that like anyone that music I grew up listening to in high school and college definitely will always have a special place for me, but I'm covering now and looking at a lot of people whose music I may not necessarily seek out but I'm still you know, I'm following to make sure that I can, you know, not just be as subjective as I can. But obviously, you know, it's hard not to do that. But I guess it's people that are also in the media space. And you know, also you know, I guess I'll include both hip hop and R&B together, it'd be good to hear you know, what's your relationship like with current music made by current artists compared to the music that also may have been popular when you were in high school or college? What is that relationship like for you?


Eric Eddings 39:30

It's funny. We've been talking about this a little bit just as a group as a show team, this exact point, at least for me, you know, it's a really kind of interesting moment because like, I was somebody you know, back in the like, blog era Hip Hop time, you know, I was like, I caught every night right post you know, I'm saying like, I was literally because I google readers, I would make sure to click everyone listens to like first 30 seconds of the mixtape or whatever to see if I liked it, and then you know, kind of come back to listen more later, I got time for it now, you know, like, there's just too much going on. And so, you know, I found myself at the place where I have learned that like a lot of people get like once they kind of hit their mid-30s actually start apparently retreating to the things that made them most comfortable. So I feel myself doing that, but also, to your point, like I feel conflicted about it, because I'm like, Oh, shit, I'm not trying to tap out, I'm not trying to, like push myself back from the table, you know, I'm still here. And so, you know, I do try to catch some of the kind of newer artists who are kind of coming out and watch, again, for the trends of what I see. And so you're, I'll still try to listen a little bit online Fridays when stuff comes out. Like I'm trying to, like hear a little bit, but not all the time, like, there have been folks who have kind of risen above and often it's the first kind of connected to the people to the artists who I kind of evangelize from a little bit before. So like, Baby Keem, for example, I've been like a huge fan of like, you know, some of his like tracks that come out on the album, he obviously you know, his Kendrick's cousin, you know, but just like that kind of folks who are kind of in the orbit of others that No, I can feel most confident about in terms of whether the sound is going to be kind of what I'm looking for. Because also hip hop is really changing. And like, you know, it's changing around me in a way that I don't always connect with, but I respect that power and the fact that like, you know, it's a living breathing thing, it's gonna become something else. And so, you know, I'm trying to understand a little bit of the trajectory of kind of where they're going to be able to just understand how my relationship to it is changing. So yeah, it's a complicated time. I'm not like, I think I told Brittany this at this moment, listen to more r&b than I have ever in my life.


Dan Runcie 41:41

Are we talking about modern like R&B artists or like R&B back in the day,


Eric Eddings 41:45

All of it, I'm talking about, you know, like, everything from the help that rerelease, hotels to, you know, Jazmine Sullivan, to you know, going back, and I have literally I call it like, oh, people cookout music, their playlist has been good, that placement, plenty of work for me, you know, so it really runs the range. And some of that comes from just like the volatility of the world right now, you know, but I don't want to say that, like, I don't know, I think Hip Hop reflects more than what we can consume. And so what I have been seeing recently has sometimes stressed me out, you know, and so I found myself leaning on other genres, but I do still have hope that they're gonna swing back, and there's probably gonna be somebody else Hill, everybody's talking about Kendrick coming back this year. So maybe, you know, he can inspire some folks, we'll see. Because, sorry, I rambled


Brittany Luse 42:28

As far as music. So I really like music that I can sing along to and kind of what Eric was saying. Like, I like to say things that like, especially like I like listening to, at this point in my life, rap and hip hop, that makes me feel aspirational. And I feel like female rappers right now are the only people who are rapping about things that actually you'd want to do. They're like, oh, I want you know, they're basically like, I want to have sex with a really hot guy. I want to make a lot of money. I want to buy expensive things. And I want to go on a trip. I'm like, wow, yeah. I mean, I identify with that until like, they say, a really poetic way. And they put a great beat. I'm like, This is what I'm talking about this. I understand. They're always just like, I'm so flying. So cute. I'm so beautiful. I'm gonna have it? To me, this never goes out of style. I think that sometimes when I hear some of the young, these young men, everything is like Xanny, Xanny, Xanny. And my thought is like, I know, I'm getting really getting older because I'm just like, Oh, my God, they are stressing me out. Like, are you drinking water? Are you taking breaks? Do you have a trip, buddy? Like, you should not be taking all these empty bars by yourself and being in a club, and I tell anybody is not safe. But also like, some, like, I want to listen to things that are gonna like make me feel good or ease my stress. And I think to Eric's point, right now, I don't feel like listening to a lot of younger male artists at this point eases my stress. That's not to say that I don't think there are quite a few people that I hear that I'm like, oh, man, that sounds really good. That sounds interesting. But I also don't follow music as much as I used to when I was younger, I was kind of into like, some of like the block hip hop. I used to follow a blind eye for the kids. And I was always downloading all the stuff and listening to it. And it was fun. But like, I didn't have like the type of bills I have. Now. I have more energy. I'm tired now. And so I think even sometimes deciding to try something new feels like it can take energy out of me when I'm like I can just go straight to something that I know that I'm really going to enjoy. So because I love music that I can sing along to. I have always been a pretty strong r&b listener. My parents are really an r&b I've actually found myself enjoying present r&b and real like real good singers like a Jazmine Sullivan Ari Lennox, JoJo, like people who really can think I do like to listen to music. I love pop. But you know, speaking specifically, to slightly close up. I've been listening to a lot of older r&b stuff that like I will hear on like a 70s mix or something like that. And it'll like take me back to being in a car of my parents on a Saturday night coming home from one of their friend's parties, hearing like a quiet storm set on the radio, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I haven't heard the song in 25 years. 

Like, I've been listening to a lot of that stuff. And I don't know, it just puts me in a good state. And I feel like some of it really just speaks to my emotions, maybe that I'm experiencing as in like, as I'm getting deeper into adulthood as I'm like a real adult now at 34 when I wasn't really 27, 24, 22. I think that there's like a, I don't know, like something about where the melody hits. The lyrical complexity is just I don't know, I understand basically, now are my parents were like 35, 40. And listening to Angela Bofill. Late at night, driving workplaces. So I mean, but what I will say is that my opinion on what music is popping right now, I'm actually I don't care that much about my opinion, even if I don't listen to everything. I really want to know what young people are responding to. Because I think what they think of their music is a lot more important than what I think of their music. Like, it's fine to me that like, I don't connect with it, because it's not meant I'm not meant to connect with it. Like my time of wearing you know, as the kids say, like the Olivia Pope business casual in the club, I had a stat investment for over 21. I worked for a party at Rutgers in 2007. Those days are behind me, thankfully. But yeah, I think I don't know. That's what part is more like tick tock tick tock, like playlists, or even just like seeing what's hot on the charts. Keeps me up with like, artists that young people are super into. And also even sometimes on TikTok, there'll be people who are way younger than me, like 1015 years younger, who like to make Top Five artists I'm listening to right now. And I get to hear snippets of their music. Like, I'm just interested in what they think about their music, because like, honestly, what they think about their music and how it speaks to them. That says a lot more to me about their, like, where culture is headed, and what they're into that like me listening to something and being like, What the hell is this? You know, I'm Auntie now and it's fine.



Dan Runcie 47:09

Yeah, that's the exact point there. I think that I, like, in my view, group chats, people will do this thing. Every year, someone will post the annual XXL freshman class, and then they're like, Hey, do y'all even know when you these names in here? And I'm like, bro, you're 39 with you. They're not meant for you. Like, yeah, this literally isn't meant for you. And so I think about that piece, right? And maybe even more. So now. It's like, I think that some of these artists the same way that media general is just becoming more niche, they know, their audience, they're leaning into it even more. So that may be some of the forced mass marketing that they would have been pushed to do, you know, 20, 30 years ago before.


Eric Eddings 47:49

To your point, they're smarter, you know, saying you don't need to, and also how people think about what a hugely successful career in music is different and slightly now, you know, like, there is not actually the same scale as there used to be or if that scale exists is only for a much smaller amount of folks. So like, I think people are coming into the game. Now, the game sound like I'm trying to be cool, but like, people are coming into hip hop now trying to, you know, like, sustain themselves and have a long career as opposed to always being, you know, trying to necessarily be like the person at like, the top the charts. And I think that actually is really great. I think because again, the sustaining is a part that is really interesting, because we've seen so many of our, you know, favorite rappers or musicians period just kind of like burn themselves out or get burned by the industry. And then they, you know, disappear after a few albums. So yeah, you know, like the like, I'm still shocked futures is produced it, you know, he's had a long career, but like, I think there are a lot of.


Brittany Luse 48:48

vVery true.


Eric Eddings 48:51

But yeah, there's so many others. I'm like, I want them to be able to have the longevity in this space, especially a lot of the female rappers out here now, I am excited to see them. So in control of the business as well, because of how, like, you know, they're smarter about what that's going to protect for them later on. Man is like getting her shit together. She learned about the run me off the paint. Like, I know what the contract the paper is supposed to


Eric Eddings 49:18

The sauce was good. It was good.


Brittany Luse 49:19

It was it was great. Yeah.


Dan Runcie 49:23

Oh, man, we could talk about, you know, hip hop all day. But I know we've run out of time. But before we let you go, I feel like that last point you made was probably a good note to just tie things up, right? People are getting smarter about knowing their audiences leaning into it. And I think that speaks a lot to what you both have been able to build over the years with For Colored Nerds with The Nod and then you know, back with for color nerds. Again, I think that having an audience that has been with you this long, just speaks to the work that you've done in all of the that goes into it. So thank you again for coming on. And I mean, both as a listener and as a fellow podcaster, it's been great to watch both of your charity. Thank you. It was great.


Eric Eddings 50:05

last night. Yeah, seriously,


Brittany Luse 50:07

You do great work/ You made this infographic like a flowchart about ESA raised businesses and how they Yeah, like how each one feeds the other. Like talking about why she still has the Patreon how she's thinking about radio and this was probably like three or four years ago or something like that. It was like instant follow. So it's cool to be here with you


Dan Runcie 50:31

Thank you. That means a lot. Really appreciate it, really appreciate it. 


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]]> 3171 no How Kevin Liles Built 300 Entertainment Into A $400 Million Business In Under 10 Years https://www.trapital.com/podcast Kevin Liles didn’t co-found 300 Entertainment just to sell it. He created it, first and foremost, to fill a void he saw in the music industry — a lack of talent development. Ten years after starting the 300 record label, it’s safe to say Kevin and company filled that void. By developing culture-shifting artists like Gunna, Megan Thee Stallion, Young Thug, among others, 300 has become one of the hottest commodities in all of hip-hop. This led to WMG buying the formerly-independent label for $400 million at the start of the new year. In WMG, Kevin believes he’s found a partner with the “mindset of an independent, but the muscle of a major.” As the one-time EVP of WMG, Kevin would know this first-hand. And even with an influx of $400 million, Kevin isn’t going to change the way he makes decisions. For Kevin, it’s always been about prioritizing the cultural incentives rather than the financial ones. This mindset has followed him from Def Jam intern to its President and now as CEO of 300 & Elektra Music Group. In-between running the label, Kevin has also invested resources in creating a pipeline for future music and entertainment execs with diverse backgrounds. In particular, Kevin has tapped into HBCUs, helping set up a $250 million fundraising campaign for his alma mater, Morgan State, and connecting students directly with the FBI.    Kevin and I covered a lot of ground in this episode of the Trapital. Here are the show chapters: [3:23] Behind 300 Entertainment’s Sale To Warner Music [8:29] Gunna’s Meteoric Rise  [10:29] How Phrases Like Hot Girl Summer & Pushin P Became A Thing  [13:08] What Changes With WMG Partnership?  [15:58] New Def Jam Video Game In The Works?  [17:27] Launching 300 Studios  [20:17] Kevin Thinks The Best Is Yet To Come For Hip Hop [22:10] Hip Hop’s International Opportunity  [24:23] Major Differences Between Running Def Jam vs. 300  [28:10] The Power Of Diverse Execs Making Cultural, Not Financial Decisions [30:25] How Music Industry Has Handled Diversity Issues Since George Floyd [31:00] Kevin’s Attempt To Create Diverse Talent Pipeline [32:14] The Rise Of Hip-Hop Media Personalities [40:35] Young Thug’s Role As Chief Innovation Officer [43:49] Keeping Narrative On The Future, Not Past This episode is brought to you by Koji, the best “link in bio” tool. It is trusted by Grammy winners, chart-topping hitmakers, and more. Join 185,000+ creators. Check it out for free: koji.to/trapitalpodcast Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Kevin Liles, IG: @kevinlileskwl, Twitter: @KevinLiles1     Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands _____ TRANSCRIPTION Kevin Liles 00:00 When you put diverse people at the head of the company, and you allow that person to make cultural decisions and not financial decisions on something that they don't know, so that young people run a company, they don't know they might go to a concert, but they don't know when a kid could come in, like I came in. And I saw Russell, I said, “Oh, he's the boss.” So you mean if you're the boss, you can move stuff that you want to people not only want to be an employee or work in music, no, they want to run companies. And until we as an industry, and really this is not just about the music industry, this is about the world. Until a CEO that looks like them, act like them talk like them, you know, that's when you unleash the true power of where we are in our culture. Dan Runcie 00:56 Today's episode is with Kevin Liles, the Chairman and CEO of 300 Entertainment and Electro Music Group. Kevin's been one of the most influential record label executives of the past few decades. He ran Def Jam for seven years in the late 90s, early 2000s. And almost 10 years ago, he started 300 Entertainment, which he just sold to Warner for a $400 million deal. So we talked about everything that went into that decision, what it was like to sell the record label what a partnership with Warner looks like and how the record label can maintain its independent spirit under the umbrella of native record labels. We also talked about Gunner and how he's having one of the biggest years in hip hop right now and Pusha P and everything with that. We talked about Megan Thee Stallion and we talked about Thug. Did you know that Thug is Chief Innovation Officer at 300? When we talked all about that and what that means and a whole lot more. He also gave us the latest update on Def Jam Vendetta. You know the people that ask him at Def Jam Vendetta, they want to see the video game come back through. So we talked about that. We also talked to broader about IP. If you follow me on social media, you know that I want to see the story to hip hop record labels get the same type of TV anthology breakdowns that we're seeing now about Thera Nose and WeWork and Uber I want to see the same about Def Jam and Bad Boy and Rockefeller. And we talked a little bit about that too. It was a great conversation. I think it's always inspiring to talk to one of the most influential execs in hip hop that I believe really helped to make this culture what it is. Here's my chat with Kevin Liles. All right, today we got co-founder and CEO with 300. Entertainment Kevin Liles with us today. Hey, Kevin, I got to give you a shout out man, it feels like you've had one of the strongest starts to this year sold the record label, Gunner’s hit starting the year off strong. How does it feel? Kevin Liles 02:43 It feels like another day at the office. People ask me all the time, Kevin, what's new, every day is new. Every day is a new opportunity. God woke me up and I feel there's a bigger purpose. And I feel the steps that we take, I don't look for number one albums, I don't look for to be, accolades or to be the best this or anything. I really just strive on doing this work that day. And I joke with somebody I said no with me, I'm never gonna be up too upset, they'll never be too sad. I will flow like water. And water is a very powerful thing because it helps grow. It changes direction with the most people around the world. So I feel like what is great about me. Dan Runcie 03:23 I hear that. So talk to me a bit about the sale because that made big news, there was rumors about it happening towards the end of 2021. But walk me through that process. When did you first think about selling 300 and what went into the decision for you? Kevin Liles 03:39 I never thought about selling. I don't build things to sell. I'm a serial entrepreneur, but I build things to change the world. And I find a void. And the void was the creation of 300 co-founders, the void was there was no true artist about it. When we talk about our students. I'm not just talking about developing a sound or developing of a person I'm saying we're raising young kids, young men, and women into the world. And so they need to have some have dads and we have moms and we had by my dad, but some have not, you know around them. So we need to be of service to their growth. So when people say what are you thinking about selling, I always was thinking about who was my best partner that I could have the independent of my mindset of independent, but the muscle of a major who's the best partner that independence will be in their DNA, who's the best partner that I could actually administer around the world, the good, the bad, the right the wrong and treat the body want to be treated. And so I'm not for sale. 300 as an entity I sold because I wanted entrepreneurs to learn what intrapreneurship was to add what tools in a toolboxes around the world, but you know, people can't be sold a company what I did was sold an asset that I felt could be a bigger asset to the world. I'd say do you think Steve, isn't a Jeff Bezos is still sitting in his garage. No. Do you think that guys are still in a dorm room? Yeah, I mean, Zuckerberg in a dorm room? No, no, we actually have a great idea, a great business, we're acquiring things, starting different things. So I believe the sale is something that people put too much emphasis on. Now, with that being said, I wanted also to create history. So if you think about Motown selling for 61 million, if you think about Def Jam, selling for 140 million on the face, on 425 million getting sold for 325, or even a man selling for 500 million in 27 years, eight years, we sold a company for $400 million. And so to me, I also think about legacy and history and what that means. So if people want to talk about the sale, talk about it in a way, that is historic for an African American, historic for a company, but it's also profitable for shareholders. And as a CEO, you know, we got to make sure the shareholders and the board a great, but I think the culture needed to see that it is a possibility to build something, sell something, become a bigger brand by doing it, but never lose the mindset of an independent. Dan Runcie 06:13 I think that's an interesting good point, because so many of the big, whether it's the catalog sales, or the record label sales that we've seen over the past two years that we've seen this run happen, a lot of them haven't been with executives that are black, or executives that, you know, are just non-white men in general. So I think that the fact that you were able to do that shows and signals not just what you're capable of, but also what your artists are capable of, too. And I think as well on the partnership side, it's interesting because I think that 300, maybe, you know, relative to a lot of the other labels that were independent before people may have thought that “Oh, well. 300 is just as powerful as some of the majors or you know, definitely has the same firepower behind it.” But it sounds like what you're saying is that, yeah, even with all that we've accomplished, there's still more that we can have, you know, with the backing and with the further partnership of a company like a Warner. Kevin Liles 07:11 We shocked the world where we had more Grammys than the majors but magazine three Grammys, you know, we shot the world that we put out and we're up against a major and had the number one album in the first week out as this little independent thing, you got to realize all the stuff that's happening now is still stuff we've set up last year. And so as we go into this year, just look for us to be doing hashtag bigger family business, not just family business, but bigger family business. Dan Runcie 07:37 Yeah, I hear that. And I think too, talking about the artists that were able to do things, I mean, Ghana has been the poster child so far this year, at least when it comes to hip hop, I mean, not just him getting the number one single but him being the weekend, but then had everything surrounding around Pusha P and everything there. I mean, I assume that has to feel pretty good. Because I think it's so tough, especially in this era, to have superstars and people that are on the verge of superstar status to kind of grow in get there with so much noise and so much other artists that are coming through whether it's independence or others. So the fact that he's able to, you know, not show to he compete, but outsell other superstars, I think shows a lot of not just the potential, but also that this is still possible in this era, we can still have the biggest stars continue to reach further heights. Kevin Liles 08:29 Yeah, I think you'd want to talk about true artist development and from the dropping of drip Season One, two, and three, and one. And all those things, you got to realize that young kid was just sitting by bug in the studio learning and he never stopped learning, we never stopped evolving. And when you saw him perform with commitment to balance, open up the brands, you know, one year, he's all things that became attainable to him and through by us the work that went into ds for the thoughtfulness of how it started, ebb and flows of it, of how many girl records should I have on it? What am I trying to say? I can't say I'm dripping. And I'm not really drip. So I have to be in every fashion show or it just you know, the thoughtfulness. We're not just putting out records, if you want to do that, that's not 300. 300 is thoughtful. 300 is taking the time to understand where an artist is in their career. Where is it a mixtape time isn't an album time? Is it collab time? These are all things that because people don't have the relationships with the artists, then if the artists house or going on vacation, they can't really communicate. You know, obviously, you can't hand me something without an owner's name. I have to know everything about it so I can assist. You know, Gunner is more than an RC you can, he's a human being but he's also a very good friend. You know, Evany his manager is not just a manager. She's a system that could be a daughter to me, and I have a responsibility to develop another young woman in our industry. So to me, what are we Pusha P whenever we have Hot Girl Summer, well we attract cooling it or you know, Savage in it, whatever you whatever one you want to a week bad and bougie in it. But everyone you want to pick up. We don't just, you know have moments we make movies. Dan Runcie 10:15 I like that you mentioned that because you have had so many I feel like every year every other year, there's some moment that 300 is able to capture some term that they're able to introduce something in the water like power, y'all always the ones that have the terms on lock.  Kevin Liles 10:29 You know, I think it's a great commentary to the great artists and the great creators and the great executives that we have run if we don't make this shit up. We didn't go to FedWatch and say, Yo, do trap boo. We didn't go to mag and say have a hot girl summer. We don't go to yo, guess what the Gunner we go, Pusha P, that's not how it happens. It happens because we provide a safe place for ideation, creativity, and opportunities for people to fail. But failure is a learning experience. You know, when Marvin Gaye wanted to do what's going on, and it was an appointment, and what his biggest-selling album, it was just where he was in life. ps4 is where Gunner is in life. Punk was where thug was in life. You can't go through manufacture in the ship. And it's not cultural. And if it's not cultural, then it really can't be 300 to me, and that's really the message and one of the great things about being able to take over the electrode of entertainers we've also it's in their ethos, we have great labels like FBI, FDR, Roadrunner, iconic labels that started with founders that had a point of view. And so to me, as long as I have a point of view, as long as it be cultural, as long as I could have the independent mindset, I'm good. And I'm doing it all, again to raise great young men and women, web executives or artists. But I really believe God wakes me up to change the world. I really believe it is not even a question in my mind. And so I want to get better. I want to be a better father, a better operator, a better friend. And if you always challenge yourself that there is more, that there is more to do. If you reimagine and rethink and things you will see God will answer you in so many great way. Do you think that the VR sold a company eight months ago now months ago, Mary Jane, you connected? Did you think she was performing at the Superbowl? Do you think that the Super Bowl, who would be it they'd be run by Jay Z? Do you think that like, we don't make this up? This is I can't tell you, I can just thank God, and thank the people around me for believing that they do have a bigger mission. Dan Runcie 12:37 And I think with this too, you build something so special, you talked a lot about that independent spirit that I think carry through with artists development with how your artists became the culture-makers that they are. And I gotta wonder, though, with the partnership with Warner now, of course, you're giving up a little bit of control in exchange for the power, it helps you put behind the artists. But is there any concern or any thought about okay, what will that look like? Or how may that potentially shift if we're seeding some of that control or some of that power? Kevin Liles 13:08 Then, you see, I'm the wrong guy to accept because I never felt like I worked in the back. I always feel like give me the mission, give me assignment. And let me do that. Again, great thing about this opportunity, Julie Greenwald. And I ran Def Jam together along with Leah, Julie was an assistant I was starting to enter. So she knows everything about me. She knows where the bodies buried, she knows the good, the bad, the ugly, maximum side I work with as a concrete colleague for 9, 10 years, you know, he knows the good, the bad. And so I'm a position player. So if I need to be the coach to quarterback, the running back, then I have enough tools in my toolbox to play whatever position and so I never give up control. Because nobody does what I do can't keep that and so I never look at it. But we can you know, you have a boss now. Okay, what does that mean? They have a great employee. Oh, Kevin, Kevin, for your artists. They can't know we do what we do. But now we do it. It's hashtag bigger family business that it's just again, I'm not the guy that when you take on additional investment that you change, I believe the thing about 300, thing about Def Jam, these were things that were built out of necessity, and we curated them in a cultural way, not in a financial way. Not we saw a need to do Def Comedy Jam. We saw a need to have fat farm and baby fat. We saw a need to make Def Jam Vendetta and Fight For New York. You know, we saw a need to be heavily involved in political races and important countries. We saw a need that the State's Attorneys in every city can help us change the narrative around who's going while going and why they're in jail and they should be out of jail. We just saw see things because we're out in the streets without it every single day. That doesn't mean everybody has to be Mona, what it means is you have to be in touch with who you are, why you are, what your purpose is. And that is what I challenge. But listen, I don't deal with coke cans and cigars and shit talk back to me. These are real people in, my people know they have the freedom, the freedom to disagree, the freedom to try. And when you have a bunch of risk-takers, like we have in Max and we have and Julie and we have and the rest of the team and I have two great kids and rating Celine that most people wouldn't give them the power that I've given them. But remember, they may be president and CEO of Def Jam at age 30. So, to me, this is just a great opportunity for us to do what we do never change who we are. Dan Runcie 15:42 I hear that. And you mentioned Def Jam Vendetta. So we got to talk about that. Because I think it was last year, you put out a little teaser. You said hey, do you all want another sequel? You want another one? So where's that ad? What are you thinking about for the future of the Def Jam video game? Kevin Liles 15:58 I don't know if you saw the tweet about it yesterday. But he said, Man, we need another one. Because back and Snoop it oh my god, it's timing. For me. It's working with the right partner. At that time, Electronic Arts was the right partner, they allowed me to curate it without the limitations of “Oh, but we're Electronic Arts. Oh, and you know,” so when I find the right gaming button, and if you're out there, let me know, when I find the right gaming partner that wants to experience gaming in a way that I see it culturally, it'll come back out. But until then, I'll keep having the conversations until I find the right one. Dan Runcie 16:34 That makes sense, because I think what we're talking about at the end of the day is just how valuable the IP and the brand is, and everything that you all had created, whether it's what you had done at Def Jam, or what you've now done this past decade with 300 and one of the things I've started to take notice to now is we're this way right now with media TV, where we're seeing all of these TV anthology series about the rise and fall of these tech companies. Right, we got the Theranos one, we got the WeWork one, we got the Uber one. And I want to see the same for the Def Jams and the Bad Boys. And I want to see all of that. And I feel like if we're having the conversations about the video games, it's only going to be a matter of time before we're going to see those as well. We want to get back to the early 2000s Def Jam or the Rockefeller run and see who would all play you all I feel like that's it has to be happening in at least a couple of years. Kevin Liles 17:27 So one of the reasons why I created 300 Studios is because I haven't told full stories in a long time. And so you can check the credits for whether it was how high the show ended things that we did back in the day rush hour. And those things that we've been able to be a part of why did I get married a Tyler Perry was daddy's little girl and go down to this though, things that we've been able to help curate. There was a reason why I wanted him studios to not only tell the audio stories around 300, but I wanted to tell digital stories. And I had the great pleasure of finding Kelly Nolan. And they believe in the vision. And you know, within two years, we had our first doc on February 26 called Race, Bubba Wallace. And it was the only African American Cup Series driver and his trials and tribulations of not having any sponsorship to now winning races and changing the current federal flag and mascot. I didn't say hey, here's the script. But here's what's gonna happen NASCAR, here's what you're gonna have a guy come in and actually curate and trust in the brands of 2311 racing, you know, with Jordan, and Denny, Toyota, McDonald's DoorDash, all these things with the background of raising a young kid in a sport that you can't even afford to be in. You know, I mean, you just 20, $30 million, you have to have caused the crash. I know that. So again, I wanted to educate people on the sport but also wanted to take them on a journey that a lot of people have never taken with NASCAR. So I appreciate everything. And yes, there will be a story, there will be more Word docs. And I do plan because I'm going for decades in the business now telling the true stories of all of these iconic brands and iconic people and friends and people who shaped the world and conversation. I do plan on telling the story.  Dan Runcie 19:14 Yeah, I think people would love to hear that. I feel like that is where things are obviously heading with all of the IP that's being created. And I feel like especially for you all I mean, it's interesting now because we just see the histology of how everything is, you know, we're looking back and people are talking fondly about that late 90s, early 2000s run and it's only going to be a matter of time before people look back at this particular era. Not even just with hip hop, but music more broadly. And just seeing how many shifts this music industry has had. And I feel like the past few years, we're on the verge of another one as well. The revenue has been, you know, the highest that it's been at least since the CD era, and that I think has influenced a lot of these deals that we've seen and we're now seeing all This activity with web three NFTs and everything else. I mean, as someone who has seen it, you know the highs and the lows of it as you said, you know, you're definitely have the you know, be like water mentality. When that said, it must be really exciting to also see all the possibilities of where you could tap into. Kevin Liles 20:17 Listen, all I can tell you, I was at the Super Bowl, the biggest stage in the world with Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, Eminem, 50 Cent, Mary J. Blige at the Super Bowl. So if you don't know the possibilities, we have the number one music in the world when they used to tell us, you'll be a fad. They used to say we play more music and less rap. Now everybody's saying we're just stationary hip hop, and Baba, Baba. And everybody when people didn't realize, and I'm sure they're not sure how old you are. But when I was in the car growing up, I was listening to the Temptations, and Diana Ross and Aretha Franklin because that's my Mom, listen to. But now, as adults, what we listen, I listen to hip hop. So that that's been for the last 30 years. So now you have hip hop parents, you have a President of the United States, in Iraq, who knows hip hop, you have mayors and governors and lordships and keep losing, that grew up on hip hop. So you have not seen the greatness of our culture, yet, you're starting to see the seeds being planted. I truly believe that with the continent coming into play with India, coming into play, these underdeveloped nations, oh, man, this will be so many stories to be told, in a way through a hip hop lens. So I'm just excited more say, I just hope they'll still let me be around. As long as God keeps giving these gifts, I'll stay with the rope. Dan Runcie 21:44 I hear that, and I think the international expansion is just being so key to so many record labels, moving Making Moves, whether it's in India, in East Asia, in Africa, as well. And I know that you all have, you know, made moves in that perspective as well. What do you see is that opportunity, especially in the next few years? I mean, I know that having Warner behind can definitely help from an international push from that perspective. But what do you see as an opportunity. Kevin Liles 22:10  One of the biggest issues that I was having is I didn't have my Rolodex is 40,000 people, but I only had 75 people working for me, couldn't reach those, I got the calls from the biggest artists in France and the biggest artists in Germany and the biggest artist in London, and I couldn't serve them in a way that they need to be served. Remember, early on, I knew where hip hop was going, Leon Russell, we thought about your Def Jam UK, Def Jam Germany, Def Jam France, Def Jam Japan, we were just too early. And those countries did not have the voice. They didn't have their own voice. They were emulating what we were doing, because we were starting the creation of it. But now you go to any of those major territories, they have their own voice, the biggest artists in that territory is from that territory. It's not us coming there. And so as a proud steward of our culture, I think the opportunity is on steroids right now, because I'm going to be able to not only help artists, but also help creators and executives realize that set up their own iPhones in their own territories, because they can say shit 300 to do that. The guy was this is his third time. Oh, if they can do it, look what we could do. And so we're starting that also. So I can only thank again, you know, Max and Julie for believing in what we're creating, loving, independent spirit, but also remembering that Do It Yourself, DIY thing, nobody does it themselves. You know, that's like saying you gonna have a baby by yourself. No! You will get married by yourself. No, you don't do, you don't do anything by yourself. And there's not one global artists around the world that did it ourselves. So I believe in collaboration, I believe in partnership. But again, the mindset has to be independent. Dan Runcie 23:50 I think the piece that you mentioned on the differences of when you're running Def Jam 20 years ago, versus now especially on the international front is key because as you mentioned, a lot of those regions didn't have the developed music ecosystem that they do. So it was often, forget your artists there as opposed to now they have their own superstars. What are some of the other major differences that you've experienced from now being a major label executive in this decade as opposed to what it was like for you Def Jam 20 years ago? Kevin Liles 24:23 People didn't notice them. What the fuck was talking about? They didn't understand the cultural thing. They understood the numbers, but they didn't understand what I was somewhere why I would say no, I don't want to pay, when I want to go play a tape in London to small club that I will do that 10 times before I do it. They didn't understand why. I mean, even inside the company, he said, Well, we shouldn't take Trey Songz to London, because he doesn't have the big radio record there. And I'm like, people stream their people buy music. They're people and I know when I go there, and I'm doing 500,000 to 2000 or 5000 people in shows that they just do. He's not developed enough to understand that shit moves without all the triggers sometimes. And so it was funny. We went there, and somebody said, boot camp, you know, I know you want to play, you know, 5,000 seaters, but we sold out two nights on it. So maybe we should start playing arenas? And my answer was no because we're not ready for it yet. Let me keep curating keep going through the process. And seeing and I've seen bands that haven't had one hit, but they can sell out in a real way. And that that to me, I'm so excited. There's a young lady from the UK named Pink Patras that I'm so excited about where she's going her aesthetic who shipped to the capital labor, there's no label you can put on I'm excited that if you take a look at Megan Thee Stallion schedule for the next year, she's paying every major festival around the world. So think about what that what's that gonna do for her development, allow her to become a product of her experiences, not just her limited environment, think about what she's going to write. I remember a long time ago, Lulu, Chris and I went to Africa. And then I hate the song, the best women for Africa. Oh, yeah. Jay Z, and I took our first private plane. And then you start talking about the airport, you don't mean your first trip to the South of France, you don't mean? These are the experiences that allow for great storytelling that allow for evolution, not just of an artist, but also the narrative of the employees and executives that take those journeys with.  Dan Runcie 26:30 That makes me think too, about snooping around with the music and the beautiful music video and that spot a landmark, you know, like, people want to go there and take pictures and be like, No, I was as powerful. It really is. I mean, for me, one of the other things I think about too, that's just changed so much from you know, back when you're at Def Jam to now with 300 is because of streaming and the Internet and so much, now, people respect much more what you were trying to do then because they realize it and I think obviously streaming helped level a lot of the playing fields side, big hip hop and r&b soul. So many lot, so much black music was able to reach more of its true potential in terms of just how easily it could spread, because there's less gatekeepers, right. And I think I'm interested to see, okay, how that continues to go. And what are the things that may continue to rehab that, you know, whether it's boost further, or have it reach even more of its potential? Because to your point, I agree with that, we still haven't reached the maximum point or we still have it, you know, really been able to have the whole world really tap into what's happening here. So I'm curious to you know, as I'm thinking through what the next decade looks like, what are those things going to be the same way how, you know, streaming and social media help level the playing field for a lot of this genre of music like is whether it's, you know, Web 3.0, or NFTs or the Metaverse is that going to be the next thing that'll help even more of the hip hop artists in r&b and soul reach their full potential.  Kevin Liles 28:01 It's an output to you so straight that all that shit is good and as always, we evolution that we're going to go from the small two way pages to now the cell phone game and remote control, all that shit, technological change cassette to CD and all that stuff is gonna change our biggest power. And I'm a living example of it is when you put diverse people at the head of the company, and you allow that person to make cultural decisions and not financial decisions on something that they don't know. So that young people run a company, they don't know, they might go to a concert, but they don't know when a kid could come in, like I came in. And I saw Russell, I said, Oh, he the boss. So you mean if you're the boss, you can move stuff that you want to people not only want to be an employee or work in music, no, they want to run companies. And until we as an industry, and really, this is not just about the music industry, this is about the world until the consumers today see a CEO that looks like them, act like them, talk like them, you know, that's when you unleash the true power of where we are in our culture. The C-Suite does not represent what we're selling, and until you get that you're not going to maximize it, but it's coming because I plan on my fucking changes. I'm gonna let them know now that guys, I'm nowhere near done. This is just a, I'm on chapter one. Fuck it. I don't care what what we say. And I'm going to make sure part of my legacy is to make sure I have planted enough seeds that you know, the next CEO, CEOs of tech companies and men of various and this first in that verse, whatever you want to call it, they have representation of a culture that's using it. Dan Runcie 29:38 Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned this because I do think that that is what makes the change at the end of the day and that could influence so much it will influence so much. And I'd love to know what your perspective is on the movements or activities that the music industry has done on this front the past two years. So after George Floyd's murder, there was a bunch of announcements and funding that when after the show must be paused, and all of that in the call was exactly what you're saying, we need more black executives that are making decisions that are the ones that are really pushing this culture forward, especially since it's their culture that is making this industry what it is. So how do you feel that that progress has been since a lot of those announcements were made by the industry? Kevin Liles 30:25 Not enough, and there's more work to be done. And it's one of the things that we hired a global diversity inclusion, the I would ever call officer named Dr. Smith. And when I came on, he's the first person to reach out, he said, we have $100 million, help me, help us change the world. We're not going to have a department, we're going to create the first-ever DEI Institute, and we're going to train people, we're going to go and find people in the organization and make them leaders in teaching cultural, cultural relevance, as far as it accompany cultural relevance and diversity of mindset and diversity of thought, not just color, we're going to find these change agents. No, I don't make this shit up. There's a lot of work to be done. But the reason that I'm at the more music group, and the reason I chose them is because Steve Cooper and Len Blavatnik have made in their mindset that we're going to change the world, and people who consume our products, who love our artists who buy our T-shirts, we want to have people in the C-Suite that look like them. And so that's a lot of fun work to be done. And once you're you know me, I'm not quiet. So I sit in the room and I tell everybody not charged. I said, “Guys, you can't announce $100 million and do things that don't change things.” Just not check the box. We're not doing it at the Warner Music Group. I never did it. I don't know how to check a box. I know how to create other boxes. I let everybody else do with it. Oh, we just did this? No, no, we created the DEI Institute around pingy equity, which is just amazing man, but a lot of work to be done all across the board. And I challenged every CEO, every chairman, every shareholder of a major corporations to challenge the company to allow that diversity to be in the C-Suite. It will change the company and it changing the company, will make more money.  Dan Runcie 32:14 Couldn't agree more. And I think too, this speaks to a lot of the work you've done, even you know, outside of just you know, running the music part of the record label, you've been active with HBCUs as a graduate of wind that you've wanted to make sure that mentorship programs and entrepreneurship supporting programs are there because you see that pipeline that you want to make sure that whether it's executives that want to go on to succeed in music or other places, the more that you can use your platform to help them the better off they'll be. Kevin Liles 32:44 I think it's very important. I did a centennial raise from Golden State. Dr. Rosso, shout out to Florida State HBCU person myself, and we raised $250 million. So we knew that was the biggest institutional raise of HBCU went on to had a big conversation. I speak on a circuit a lot. And it had a big conversation around what's the pipeline to get to be a state's attorney, or a FBI special agent or a CIA, you know what, and really, I didn't know, I got to be a police officer. That's what I saw, you know, but I didn't know I don't be a basketball player, football fan, because that's what I saw. And so another program that I launched two years ago, I think, maybe last year is what I had 60 presidents of HBCUs meet with the head of the FBI, and to show that when George Floyd happened, when Freddy Gary happened, the FBI came, but people who were looking into it, when people like us, they wouldn't play for communities, there was no trust. So I want to make sure before I'm done, there will be somebody every place that will affect our culture, and have a cultural point of view, and not just a title point of view. And so that's been and I'm a big advocate of education and entrepreneurship, I believe the school system should be blown up. And we should be teaching more entrepreneurism, and not teaching people how to go work for somebody, but teaching people how to join and actually want to be change agents and not just employees. So I'm going to continue the big fight between 15 and do the work. And again, I don't do that by myself. So shout out to Dr. Smith. Dan Runcie 34:24 That's good to hear. And I mean, I think you're right so much bad taps back into see where the pipeline they see how you can build it up in making sure that that leads to a promising career so people can whether it's they want to be their own boss or they want to do their own form of intrapreneurship whatever it is, the opportunities are there. One thing that I did want to talk about shifting back to music a bit. There's been an interesting movement I think happening right now where there is more of these, I call it the hip hop media personality that has come a bit more to rise and some of them You know, even some of the, you know, the artists that that 300 have definitely pushed back on some of these folks as well for someone, whether it's the things they've said or other things like that, it would be good to hear from your perspective, because I think this is not necessarily that these types of people didn't exist before. But I think social media obviously just makes the dynamic a little different. So what's your take on that dynamic? Kevin Liles 35:21 No different than, we used to write on a graffiti walls now, we write it off Facebook, was used to hand out flyers and posters. Now you have Instagram and WhatsApp and this Snapchat and all these things. And when you talk about these personalities, you don't remember Starbuck while how they were.  Dan Runcie 35:38 They were wild. They were wild. Kevin Liles 35:41 You don't remember how if you did any bit of R&B. You had to go to video. So with Donnie Simpson, you don't sit remember how sway and tech can wake up showing them what they were there. They just went on what one thing now with social media, it could be everywhere around the world. And we want those opinions. We want those pushbacks, we want those perspectives, because those things allow us to evolve as people we're not sociated for not some of them, we wouldn't be addressing some of the issues think about what Charlemagne and The Breakfast Club dude don't for mental health, you want that pushback, you want that conversation because we don't want to become stagnant as a people. And so to me, I put your nine out of 10 of my friends, Joe Biden, I signed him to be your I mean, Noriega, drink champion. Besides me, you don't mean to get Fat Joe, us you don't need to go down the list of these guys and girls around the world that have an actor that you need the crazy one, you need him to say what he wants to say, just to be thought-provoking, you know, but if you really get to know him, you know, he's Howard Stern, hip hop. That's his thing. And we don't want to do we don't not have a stern. There might be you do you're like it, you know, but you need the conversation. And I think even, what this happened with the Rogan guy, we need that conversation. As long as it is acceptable for you to use a word that you need the conversation the corporation's needed. And you need a Spotify to say, hey, we made an investment. We're gonna learn from this and teach from this, and you needed him to come on. I don't think he just apologize for his sponsors. I think that he felt that damn, you know, I never thought about it that way. Because I'm just repeating No, but even repeating is wrong. And so this is in the people that listen to him, trust me that backface was going on, they dress it up like this during all the shift is going on still. But I'm open. But I went all the smoke, bring me the motherfucking smoke because I want to have the conversation. I want to and the problem is we don't have the conversation. And so we operate in five items around things. No, I want to taste monster ball soup, which I want you to take some collard greens to I want you to go I want to go to the Trinidad festival and hang out Mardi Gras and all this. But yes, I want you to come to the hood celebration we build into the basketball is that to me, we don't have enough of the intermingling of cultures. And the lack of compensation has led to suicide, the lack of compensation has led to racism. And I knew when Barack Obama spent eight years I said, Oh, the next thing is gonna go left and be extremely other way. And then you got Donald Trump, I knew it was going to go in. But I also knew that we had to swing it back to the middle of the pendulum because he went too far left, and I can't wait to see some of the great leaders that will be born and find out of the conversation. You know, I always say we're living in biblical times. And was Moses, just a farmer competence was Job justice was married justice. No, damn, Max was the prophet. That shouldn't be a book of Acts, that shouldn't be a book of Jay, it shouldn't be a book of Todd. Because in these biblical times that we're in right now, when Moses parted the Red Sea for other people to get, there were some casualties of war. I gave my only begotten Son for us to move forward. And believe two people don't relate what we're going through as true biblical scriptures because we haven't put them all together. We call it the Bible. But there was a George Floyd in the Bible. There was a Freddie Gray in the Bible, and God bless their families and their soul. And all of them have taken on the mantle and said, his death, her death, this moment is meant to shift culture. It's meant to get people thinking a different way. And that's why again, I applaud all the noise, all the smoke, all the conversations that I have to have, and I do have a smile. Dan Runcie 39:30 That's a good point because if we think about the evolution of Howard Stern, I think about the evolution of a Charlemagne there's kind of this like, you start off and you say, the stuff that makes you be like, What did he just say? And then like, a few years later, I mean, you listen to more recent Howard Stern interviews, I mean, he sounds like you know, almost like a therapist on the couch, like, you know, just talking through things and we said similar stuff about Charlemagne, given some of the books that he's written and just how much of a topic that is for him, and he definitely doesn't do interviews the way he did back in 2013. All right, is the evolution there? So thinking about it in that perspective, yeah, we'll be very interested to see like, where ACC or you know, where some of the others are, you know, seven years from now because I think I agree with you, you know, I don't necessarily think that, you know, he is a bad person or anything like that. I think if anything, it's more so this is a product of the internet and what everything has incentivized no different than, you know, Starbuck wild were incentivized to say wild shit on you know, power and you know, back in the day, and then now, you know, whether it's activated on twitch or on YouTube or whatever channel, yes.  Kevin Liles 40:35 You got to be doing it for rabies. He's doing it for reach. He's doing it. It's so much noise out there that you have to sometimes it's like, our chief innovative officer is Young Thug, so Young Thug, wearing a dress that people know I'm fashion, fashion shouldn't be limited, you know, but think about prints with his ass out. Think about Michael Jack and think about these guys. And again, why shouldn't we allow people to have an opinion to that that's the problem I have with a lot of people. People are really afraid of freedom. Because freedom comes check too, there's good and bad and freedom. But you're free. You're free to say and be and act and we should not judge. But we should know that people are doing things for certain reasons. The bigger your audience becomes, the bigger your reach, the bigger you become. And we can't just have Howard there by himself, can't get him broken down by itself. So what did they do to get there? What did they do to get there? I got Russell call me 10 times. Dan Runcie 41:35 Oh, man, I do want to talk quick because yeah, I was gonna ask you about Thug being Chief Innovation Officer. So what does that role include? So what's what's on the agenda? Kevin Liles 41:45 Change the world, change the perspective, change the conversation, changed the ideation process, don't limit yourself be as free of a person as you can be. And I actually run stuff by him. I'm thinking about doing a hot challenge with HBCUs. And my goal is to help these bands raise money. So I want to do $25 A night and campus did it. I did some around Pusha P and I kept that's not p. I said to him, I think we should do you know, I have family business. But I think you are the biggest family with lash out. So we made it out. When you have an innovative officer, there's no limitations. There's no job description, it’s to touch taste and tone of his very existence that allows people to come up with new ways and things to do. You know, when Mary J. Blige said good morning, gorgeous. It was therapy for that young person that gets bullied, but it was also therapy for her coming off the ship that she came off for. And I kept her I said, guys, this is not a song. This is going to help people get through life. And people have started adopting it and dads are now looking at their daughter saying good morning, gorgeous, looking at their wife that they take for granted in the morning, and saying good morning. Gorgeous. I don't make this shit up. Everybody, be free. And Thug, I'll check with you later on about what I'm thinking about next. Make sure I got the cool factor on it.  Dan Runcie 43:08 Love it. Yeah, make sure he doesn't treat you like that pirate. He said, Alex, you're up. Kevin Liles 43:15 You couldn't make shit up. You couldn't make none of this up. You know what I mean, Dan Runcie 43:19 It's beautiful. Yeah, I mean, perfect timing for that. I mean, and just lining up with the album and everything. That was perfect. Kevin Liles 43:25 But it was not scripted. It was really cool. People started to show up the shows without you posted this thing.  Dan Runcie 43:36 Oh, man, that's what you know, you got a movement as well. You know, you got something. I will. Kevin, this has been great. Before we let you go though, is there anything else that you want to plug? Let the travel audience know about that 300 Hands on Deck. Kevin Liles 43:49 I don't know if it's a plug. But I'm in search of the truth. There's a lot of talent in the world. And the reason why I feel what it means we partnership 300, Electra Entertainment, Sparta, 300 Studios, I'm creating possibilities and platforms for you guys to come and help change the world. So I would just like to enlist your audience to say you don't just have to be an artist. You don't have to just do marketing, or digital or finance or legal. There is some place for you with us. And so I'm sure I'll come in and hang out and you and I finally get in the same space. We can have a dinner, but let's keep the narrative or where we going not where we were. Dan Runcie 44:33 Sounds good. And yeah, let's definitely do it. And Kevin, thanks again for coming on. And congrats to you again on great start to the year, big sale and everything. Keep trailblazing Kevin Liles 44:42 God bless you, man. Thank you. Appreciate it. Dan Runcie 44:44 Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 18 Mar 2022 08:00:00 -0000 How Kevin Liles Built 300 Entertainment Into A $400 Million Business In Under 10 Years full Dan Runcie Kevin Liles didn’t co-found 300 Entertainment just to sell it. He created it, first and foremost, to fill a void he saw in the music industry — a lack of talent development. Ten years after starting the 300 record label, it’s safe to say Kevin and company filled that void. By developing culture-shifting artists like Gunna, Megan Thee Stallion, Young Thug, among others, 300 has become one of the hottest commodities in all of hip-hop. This led to WMG buying the formerly-independent label for $400 million at the start of the new year. In WMG, Kevin believes he’s found a partner with the “mindset of an independent, but the muscle of a major.” As the one-time EVP of WMG, Kevin would know this first-hand. And even with an influx of $400 million, Kevin isn’t going to change the way he makes decisions. For Kevin, it’s always been about prioritizing the cultural incentives rather than the financial ones. This mindset has followed him from Def Jam intern to its President and now as CEO of 300 & Elektra Music Group. In-between running the label, Kevin has also invested resources in creating a pipeline for future music and entertainment execs with diverse backgrounds. In particular, Kevin has tapped into HBCUs, helping set up a $250 million fundraising campaign for his alma mater, Morgan State, and connecting students directly with the FBI.    Kevin and I covered a lot of ground in this episode of the Trapital. Here are the show chapters: [3:23] Behind 300 Entertainment’s Sale To Warner Music [8:29] Gunna’s Meteoric Rise  [10:29] How Phrases Like Hot Girl Summer & Pushin P Became A Thing  [13:08] What Changes With WMG Partnership?  [15:58] New Def Jam Video Game In The Works?  [17:27] Launching 300 Studios  [20:17] Kevin Thinks The Best Is Yet To Come For Hip Hop [22:10] Hip Hop’s International Opportunity  [24:23] Major Differences Between Running Def Jam vs. 300  [28:10] The Power Of Diverse Execs Making Cultural, Not Financial Decisions [30:25] How Music Industry Has Handled Diversity Issues Since George Floyd [31:00] Kevin’s Attempt To Create Diverse Talent Pipeline [32:14] The Rise Of Hip-Hop Media Personalities [40:35] Young Thug’s Role As Chief Innovation Officer [43:49] Keeping Narrative On The Future, Not Past This episode is brought to you by Koji, the best “link in bio” tool. It is trusted by Grammy winners, chart-topping hitmakers, and more. Join 185,000+ creators. Check it out for free: koji.to/trapitalpodcast Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Kevin Liles, IG: @kevinlileskwl, Twitter: @KevinLiles1     Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands _____ TRANSCRIPTION Kevin Liles 00:00 When you put diverse people at the head of the company, and you allow that person to make cultural decisions and not financial decisions on something that they don't know, so that young people run a company, they don't know they might go to a concert, but they don't know when a kid could come in, like I came in. And I saw Russell, I said, “Oh, he's the boss.” So you mean if you're the boss, you can move stuff that you want to people not only want to be an employee or work in music, no, they want to run companies. And until we as an industry, and really this is not just about the music industry, this is about the world. Until a CEO that looks like them, act like them talk like them, you know, that's when you unleash the true power of where we are in our culture. Dan Runcie 00:56 Today's episode is with Kevin Liles, the Chairman and CEO of 300 Entertainment and Electro Music Group. Kevin's been one of the most influential record label executives of the past few decades. He ran Def Jam for seven years in the late 90s, early 2000s. And almost 10 years ago, he started 300 Entertainment, which he just sold to Warner for a $400 million deal. So we talked about everything that went into that decision, what it was like to sell the record label what a partnership with Warner looks like and how the record label can maintain its independent spirit under the umbrella of native record labels. We also talked about Gunner and how he's having one of the biggest years in hip hop right now and Pusha P and everything with that. We talked about Megan Thee Stallion and we talked about Thug. Did you know that Thug is Chief Innovation Officer at 300? When we talked all about that and what that means and a whole lot more. He also gave us the latest update on Def Jam Vendetta. You know the people that ask him at Def Jam Vendetta, they want to see the video game come back through. So we talked about that. We also talked to broader about IP. If you follow me on social media, you know that I want to see the story to hip hop record labels get the same type of TV anthology breakdowns that we're seeing now about Thera Nose and WeWork and Uber I want to see the same about Def Jam and Bad Boy and Rockefeller. And we talked a little bit about that too. It was a great conversation. I think it's always inspiring to talk to one of the most influential execs in hip hop that I believe really helped to make this culture what it is. Here's my chat with Kevin Liles. All right, today we got co-founder and CEO with 300. Entertainment Kevin Liles with us today. Hey, Kevin, I got to give you a shout out man, it feels like you've had one of the strongest starts to this year sold the record label, Gunner’s hit starting the year off strong. How does it feel? Kevin Liles 02:43 It feels like another day at the office. People ask me all the time, Kevin, what's new, every day is new. Every day is a new opportunity. God woke me up and I feel there's a bigger purpose. And I feel the steps that we take, I don't look for number one albums, I don't look for to be, accolades or to be the best this or anything. I really just strive on doing this work that day. And I joke with somebody I said no with me, I'm never gonna be up too upset, they'll never be too sad. I will flow like water. And water is a very powerful thing because it helps grow. It changes direction with the most people around the world. So I feel like what is great about me. Dan Runcie 03:23 I hear that. So talk to me a bit about the sale because that made big news, there was rumors about it happening towards the end of 2021. But walk me through that process. When did you first think about selling 300 and what went into the decision for you? Kevin Liles 03:39 I never thought about selling. I don't build things to sell. I'm a serial entrepreneur, but I build things to change the world. And I find a void. And the void was the creation of 300 co-founders, the void was there was no true artist about it. When we talk about our students. I'm not just talking about developing a sound or developing of a person I'm saying we're raising young kids, young men, and women into the world. And so they need to have some have dads and we have moms and we had by my dad, but some have not, you know around them. So we need to be of service to their growth. So when people say what are you thinking about selling, I always was thinking about who was my best partner that I could have the independent of my mindset of independent, but the muscle of a major who's the best partner that independence will be in their DNA, who's the best partner that I could actually administer around the world, the good, the bad, the right the wrong and treat the body want to be treated. And so I'm not for sale. 300 as an entity I sold because I wanted entrepreneurs to learn what intrapreneurship was to add what tools in a toolboxes around the world, but you know, people can't be sold a company what I did was sold an asset that I felt could be a bigger asset to the world. I'd say do you think Steve, isn't a Jeff Bezos is still sitting in his garage. No. Do you think that guys are still in a dorm room? Yeah, I mean, Zuckerberg in a dorm room? No, no, we actually have a great idea, a great business, we're acquiring things, starting different things. So I believe the sale is something that people put too much emphasis on. Now, with that being said, I wanted also to create history. So if you think about Motown selling for 61 million, if you think about Def Jam, selling for 140 million on the face, on 425 million getting sold for 325, or even a man selling for 500 million in 27 years, eight years, we sold a company for $400 million. And so to me, I also think about legacy and history and what that means. So if people want to talk about the sale, talk about it in a way, that is historic for an African American, historic for a company, but it's also profitable for shareholders. And as a CEO, you know, we got to make sure the shareholders and the board a great, but I think the culture needed to see that it is a possibility to build something, sell something, become a bigger brand by doing it, but never lose the mindset of an independent. Dan Runcie 06:13 I think that's an interesting good point, because so many of the big, whether it's the catalog sales, or the record label sales that we've seen over the past two years that we've seen this run happen, a lot of them haven't been with executives that are black, or executives that, you know, are just non-white men in general. So I think that the fact that you were able to do that shows and signals not just what you're capable of, but also what your artists are capable of, too. And I think as well on the partnership side, it's interesting because I think that 300, maybe, you know, relative to a lot of the other labels that were independent before people may have thought that “Oh, well. 300 is just as powerful as some of the majors or you know, definitely has the same firepower behind it.” But it sounds like what you're saying is that, yeah, even with all that we've accomplished, there's still more that we can have, you know, with the backing and with the further partnership of a company like a Warner. Kevin Liles 07:11 We shocked the world where we had more Grammys than the majors but magazine three Grammys, you know, we shot the world that we put out and we're up against a major and had the number one album in the first week out as this little independent thing, you got to realize all the stuff that's happening now is still stuff we've set up last year. And so as we go into this year, just look for us to be doing hashtag bigger family business, not just family business, but bigger family business. Dan Runcie 07:37 Yeah, I hear that. And I think too, talking about the artists that were able to do things, I mean, Ghana has been the poster child so far this year, at least when it comes to hip hop, I mean, not just him getting the number one single but him being the weekend, but then had everything surrounding around Pusha P and everything there. I mean, I assume that has to feel pretty good. Because I think it's so tough, especially in this era, to have superstars and people that are on the verge of superstar status to kind of grow in get there with so much noise and so much other artists that are coming through whether it's independence or others. So the fact that he's able to, you know, not show to he compete, but outsell other superstars, I think shows a lot of not just the potential, but also that this is still possible in this era, we can still have the biggest stars continue to reach further heights. Kevin Liles 08:29 Yeah, I think you'd want to talk about true artist development and from the dropping of drip Season One, two, and three, and one. And all those things, you got to realize that young kid was just sitting by bug in the studio learning and he never stopped learning, we never stopped evolving. And when you saw him perform with commitment to balance, open up the brands, you know, one year, he's all things that became attainable to him and through by us the work that went into ds for the thoughtfulness of how it started, ebb and flows of it, of how many girl records should I have on it? What am I trying to say? I can't say I'm dripping. And I'm not really drip. So I have to be in every fashion show or it just you know, the thoughtfulness. We're not just putting out records, if you want to do that, that's not 300. 300 is thoughtful. 300 is taking the time to understand where an artist is in their career. Where is it a mixtape time isn't an album time? Is it collab time? These are all things that because people don't have the relationships with the artists, then if the artists house or going on vacation, they can't really communicate. You know, obviously, you can't hand me something without an owner's name. I have to know everything about it so I can assist. You know, Gunner is more than an RC you can, he's a human being but he's also a very good friend. You know, Evany his manager is not just a manager. She's a system that could be a daughter to me, and I have a responsibility to develop another young woman in our industry. So to me, what are we Pusha P whenever we have Hot Girl Summer, well we attract cooling it or you know, Savage in it, whatever you whatever one you want to a week bad and bougie in it. But everyone you want to pick up. We don't just, you know have moments we make movies. Dan Runcie 10:15 I like that you mentioned that because you have had so many I feel like every year every other year, there's some moment that 300 is able to capture some term that they're able to introduce something in the water like power, y'all always the ones that have the terms on lock.  Kevin Liles 10:29 You know, I think it's a great commentary to the great artists and the great creators and the great executives that we have run if we don't make this shit up. We didn't go to FedWatch and say, Yo, do trap boo. We didn't go to mag and say have a hot girl summer. We don't go to yo, guess what the Gunner we go, Pusha P, that's not how it happens. It happens because we provide a safe place for ideation, creativity, and opportunities for people to fail. But failure is a learning experience. You know, when Marvin Gaye wanted to do what's going on, and it was an appointment, and what his biggest-selling album, it was just where he was in life. ps4 is where Gunner is in life. Punk was where thug was in life. You can't go through manufacture in the ship. And it's not cultural. And if it's not cultural, then it really can't be 300 to me, and that's really the message and one of the great things about being able to take over the electrode of entertainers we've also it's in their ethos, we have great labels like FBI, FDR, Roadrunner, iconic labels that started with founders that had a point of view. And so to me, as long as I have a point of view, as long as it be cultural, as long as I could have the independent mindset, I'm good. And I'm doing it all, again to raise great young men and women, web executives or artists. But I really believe God wakes me up to change the world. I really believe it is not even a question in my mind. And so I want to get better. I want to be a better father, a better operator, a better friend. And if you always challenge yourself that there is more, that there is more to do. If you reimagine and rethink and things you will see God will answer you in so many great way. Do you think that the VR sold a company eight months ago now months ago, Mary Jane, you connected? Did you think she was performing at the Superbowl? Do you think that the Super Bowl, who would be it they'd be run by Jay Z? Do you think that like, we don't make this up? This is I can't tell you, I can just thank God, and thank the people around me for believing that they do have a bigger mission. Dan Runcie 12:37 And I think with this too, you build something so special, you talked a lot about that independent spirit that I think carry through with artists development with how your artists became the culture-makers that they are. And I gotta wonder, though, with the partnership with Warner now, of course, you're giving up a little bit of control in exchange for the power, it helps you put behind the artists. But is there any concern or any thought about okay, what will that look like? Or how may that potentially shift if we're seeding some of that control or some of that power? Kevin Liles 13:08 Then, you see, I'm the wrong guy to accept because I never felt like I worked in the back. I always feel like give me the mission, give me assignment. And let me do that. Again, great thing about this opportunity, Julie Greenwald. And I ran Def Jam together along with Leah, Julie was an assistant I was starting to enter. So she knows everything about me. She knows where the bodies buried, she knows the good, the bad, the ugly, maximum side I work with as a concrete colleague for 9, 10 years, you know, he knows the good, the bad. And so I'm a position player. So if I need to be the coach to quarterback, the running back, then I have enough tools in my toolbox to play whatever position and so I never give up control. Because nobody does what I do can't keep that and so I never look at it. But we can you know, you have a boss now. Okay, what does that mean? They have a great employee. Oh, Kevin, Kevin, for your artists. They can't know we do what we do. But now we do it. It's hashtag bigger family business that it's just again, I'm not the guy that when you take on additional investment that you change, I believe the thing about 300, thing about Def Jam, these were things that were built out of necessity, and we curated them in a cultural way, not in a financial way. Not we saw a need to do Def Comedy Jam. We saw a need to have fat farm and baby fat. We saw a need to make Def Jam Vendetta and Fight For New York. You know, we saw a need to be heavily involved in political races and important countries. We saw a need that the State's Attorneys in every city can help us change the narrative around who's going while going and why they're in jail and they should be out of jail. We just saw see things because we're out in the streets without it every single day. That doesn't mean everybody has to be Mona, what it means is you have to be in touch with who you are, why you are, what your purpose is. And that is what I challenge. But listen, I don't deal with coke cans and cigars and shit talk back to me. These are real people in, my people know they have the freedom, the freedom to disagree, the freedom to try. And when you have a bunch of risk-takers, like we have in Max and we have and Julie and we have and the rest of the team and I have two great kids and rating Celine that most people wouldn't give them the power that I've given them. But remember, they may be president and CEO of Def Jam at age 30. So, to me, this is just a great opportunity for us to do what we do never change who we are. Dan Runcie 15:42 I hear that. And you mentioned Def Jam Vendetta. So we got to talk about that. Because I think it was last year, you put out a little teaser. You said hey, do you all want another sequel? You want another one? So where's that ad? What are you thinking about for the future of the Def Jam video game? Kevin Liles 15:58 I don't know if you saw the tweet about it yesterday. But he said, Man, we need another one. Because back and Snoop it oh my god, it's timing. For me. It's working with the right partner. At that time, Electronic Arts was the right partner, they allowed me to curate it without the limitations of “Oh, but we're Electronic Arts. Oh, and you know,” so when I find the right gaming button, and if you're out there, let me know, when I find the right gaming partner that wants to experience gaming in a way that I see it culturally, it'll come back out. But until then, I'll keep having the conversations until I find the right one. Dan Runcie 16:34 That makes sense, because I think what we're talking about at the end of the day is just how valuable the IP and the brand is, and everything that you all had created, whether it's what you had done at Def Jam, or what you've now done this past decade with 300 and one of the things I've started to take notice to now is we're this way right now with media TV, where we're seeing all of these TV anthology series about the rise and fall of these tech companies. Right, we got the Theranos one, we got the WeWork one, we got the Uber one. And I want to see the same for the Def Jams and the Bad Boys. And I want to see all of that. And I feel like if we're having the conversations about the video games, it's only going to be a matter of time before we're going to see those as well. We want to get back to the early 2000s Def Jam or the Rockefeller run and see who would all play you all I feel like that's it has to be happening in at least a couple of years. Kevin Liles 17:27 So one of the reasons why I created 300 Studios is because I haven't told full stories in a long time. And so you can check the credits for whether it was how high the show ended things that we did back in the day rush hour. And those things that we've been able to be a part of why did I get married a Tyler Perry was daddy's little girl and go down to this though, things that we've been able to help curate. There was a reason why I wanted him studios to not only tell the audio stories around 300, but I wanted to tell digital stories. And I had the great pleasure of finding Kelly Nolan. And they believe in the vision. And you know, within two years, we had our first doc on February 26 called Race, Bubba Wallace. And it was the only African American Cup Series driver and his trials and tribulations of not having any sponsorship to now winning races and changing the current federal flag and mascot. I didn't say hey, here's the script. But here's what's gonna happen NASCAR, here's what you're gonna have a guy come in and actually curate and trust in the brands of 2311 racing, you know, with Jordan, and Denny, Toyota, McDonald's DoorDash, all these things with the background of raising a young kid in a sport that you can't even afford to be in. You know, I mean, you just 20, $30 million, you have to have caused the crash. I know that. So again, I wanted to educate people on the sport but also wanted to take them on a journey that a lot of people have never taken with NASCAR. So I appreciate everything. And yes, there will be a story, there will be more Word docs. And I do plan because I'm going for decades in the business now telling the true stories of all of these iconic brands and iconic people and friends and people who shaped the world and conversation. I do plan on telling the story.  Dan Runcie 19:14 Yeah, I think people would love to hear that. I feel like that is where things are obviously heading with all of the IP that's being created. And I feel like especially for you all I mean, it's interesting now because we just see the histology of how everything is, you know, we're looking back and people are talking fondly about that late 90s, early 2000s run and it's only going to be a matter of time before people look back at this particular era. Not even just with hip hop, but music more broadly. And just seeing how many shifts this music industry has had. And I feel like the past few years, we're on the verge of another one as well. The revenue has been, you know, the highest that it's been at least since the CD era, and that I think has influenced a lot of these deals that we've seen and we're now seeing all This activity with web three NFTs and everything else. I mean, as someone who has seen it, you know the highs and the lows of it as you said, you know, you're definitely have the you know, be like water mentality. When that said, it must be really exciting to also see all the possibilities of where you could tap into. Kevin Liles 20:17 Listen, all I can tell you, I was at the Super Bowl, the biggest stage in the world with Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, Eminem, 50 Cent, Mary J. Blige at the Super Bowl. So if you don't know the possibilities, we have the number one music in the world when they used to tell us, you'll be a fad. They used to say we play more music and less rap. Now everybody's saying we're just stationary hip hop, and Baba, Baba. And everybody when people didn't realize, and I'm sure they're not sure how old you are. But when I was in the car growing up, I was listening to the Temptations, and Diana Ross and Aretha Franklin because that's my Mom, listen to. But now, as adults, what we listen, I listen to hip hop. So that that's been for the last 30 years. So now you have hip hop parents, you have a President of the United States, in Iraq, who knows hip hop, you have mayors and governors and lordships and keep losing, that grew up on hip hop. So you have not seen the greatness of our culture, yet, you're starting to see the seeds being planted. I truly believe that with the continent coming into play with India, coming into play, these underdeveloped nations, oh, man, this will be so many stories to be told, in a way through a hip hop lens. So I'm just excited more say, I just hope they'll still let me be around. As long as God keeps giving these gifts, I'll stay with the rope. Dan Runcie 21:44 I hear that, and I think the international expansion is just being so key to so many record labels, moving Making Moves, whether it's in India, in East Asia, in Africa, as well. And I know that you all have, you know, made moves in that perspective as well. What do you see is that opportunity, especially in the next few years? I mean, I know that having Warner behind can definitely help from an international push from that perspective. But what do you see as an opportunity. Kevin Liles 22:10  One of the biggest issues that I was having is I didn't have my Rolodex is 40,000 people, but I only had 75 people working for me, couldn't reach those, I got the calls from the biggest artists in France and the biggest artists in Germany and the biggest artist in London, and I couldn't serve them in a way that they need to be served. Remember, early on, I knew where hip hop was going, Leon Russell, we thought about your Def Jam UK, Def Jam Germany, Def Jam France, Def Jam Japan, we were just too early. And those countries did not have the voice. They didn't have their own voice. They were emulating what we were doing, because we were starting the creation of it. But now you go to any of those major territories, they have their own voice, the biggest artists in that territory is from that territory. It's not us coming there. And so as a proud steward of our culture, I think the opportunity is on steroids right now, because I'm going to be able to not only help artists, but also help creators and executives realize that set up their own iPhones in their own territories, because they can say shit 300 to do that. The guy was this is his third time. Oh, if they can do it, look what we could do. And so we're starting that also. So I can only thank again, you know, Max and Julie for believing in what we're creating, loving, independent spirit, but also remembering that Do It Yourself, DIY thing, nobody does it themselves. You know, that's like saying you gonna have a baby by yourself. No! You will get married by yourself. No, you don't do, you don't do anything by yourself. And there's not one global artists around the world that did it ourselves. So I believe in collaboration, I believe in partnership. But again, the mindset has to be independent. Dan Runcie 23:50 I think the piece that you mentioned on the differences of when you're running Def Jam 20 years ago, versus now especially on the international front is key because as you mentioned, a lot of those regions didn't have the developed music ecosystem that they do. So it was often, forget your artists there as opposed to now they have their own superstars. What are some of the other major differences that you've experienced from now being a major label executive in this decade as opposed to what it was like for you Def Jam 20 years ago? Kevin Liles 24:23 People didn't notice them. What the fuck was talking about? They didn't understand the cultural thing. They understood the numbers, but they didn't understand what I was somewhere why I would say no, I don't want to pay, when I want to go play a tape in London to small club that I will do that 10 times before I do it. They didn't understand why. I mean, even inside the company, he said, Well, we shouldn't take Trey Songz to London, because he doesn't have the big radio record there. And I'm like, people stream their people buy music. They're people and I know when I go there, and I'm doing 500,000 to 2000 or 5000 people in shows that they just do. He's not developed enough to understand that shit moves without all the triggers sometimes. And so it was funny. We went there, and somebody said, boot camp, you know, I know you want to play, you know, 5,000 seaters, but we sold out two nights on it. So maybe we should start playing arenas? And my answer was no because we're not ready for it yet. Let me keep curating keep going through the process. And seeing and I've seen bands that haven't had one hit, but they can sell out in a real way. And that that to me, I'm so excited. There's a young lady from the UK named Pink Patras that I'm so excited about where she's going her aesthetic who shipped to the capital labor, there's no label you can put on I'm excited that if you take a look at Megan Thee Stallion schedule for the next year, she's paying every major festival around the world. So think about what that what's that gonna do for her development, allow her to become a product of her experiences, not just her limited environment, think about what she's going to write. I remember a long time ago, Lulu, Chris and I went to Africa. And then I hate the song, the best women for Africa. Oh, yeah. Jay Z, and I took our first private plane. And then you start talking about the airport, you don't mean your first trip to the South of France, you don't mean? These are the experiences that allow for great storytelling that allow for evolution, not just of an artist, but also the narrative of the employees and executives that take those journeys with.  Dan Runcie 26:30 That makes me think too, about snooping around with the music and the beautiful music video and that spot a landmark, you know, like, people want to go there and take pictures and be like, No, I was as powerful. It really is. I mean, for me, one of the other things I think about too, that's just changed so much from you know, back when you're at Def Jam to now with 300 is because of streaming and the Internet and so much, now, people respect much more what you were trying to do then because they realize it and I think obviously streaming helped level a lot of the playing fields side, big hip hop and r&b soul. So many lot, so much black music was able to reach more of its true potential in terms of just how easily it could spread, because there's less gatekeepers, right. And I think I'm interested to see, okay, how that continues to go. And what are the things that may continue to rehab that, you know, whether it's boost further, or have it reach even more of its potential? Because to your point, I agree with that, we still haven't reached the maximum point or we still have it, you know, really been able to have the whole world really tap into what's happening here. So I'm curious to you know, as I'm thinking through what the next decade looks like, what are those things going to be the same way how, you know, streaming and social media help level the playing field for a lot of this genre of music like is whether it's, you know, Web 3.0, or NFTs or the Metaverse is that going to be the next thing that'll help even more of the hip hop artists in r&b and soul reach their full potential.  Kevin Liles 28:01 It's an output to you so straight that all that shit is good and as always, we evolution that we're going to go from the small two way pages to now the cell phone game and remote control, all that shit, technological change cassette to CD and all that stuff is gonna change our biggest power. And I'm a living example of it is when you put diverse people at the head of the company, and you allow that person to make cultural decisions and not financial decisions on something that they don't know. So that young people run a company, they don't know, they might go to a concert, but they don't know when a kid could come in, like I came in. And I saw Russell, I said, Oh, he the boss. So you mean if you're the boss, you can move stuff that you want to people not only want to be an employee or work in music, no, they want to run companies. And until we as an industry, and really, this is not just about the music industry, this is about the world until the consumers today see a CEO that looks like them, act like them, talk like them, you know, that's when you unleash the true power of where we are in our culture. The C-Suite does not represent what we're selling, and until you get that you're not going to maximize it, but it's coming because I plan on my fucking changes. I'm gonna let them know now that guys, I'm nowhere near done. This is just a, I'm on chapter one. Fuck it. I don't care what what we say. And I'm going to make sure part of my legacy is to make sure I have planted enough seeds that you know, the next CEO, CEOs of tech companies and men of various and this first in that verse, whatever you want to call it, they have representation of a culture that's using it. Dan Runcie 29:38 Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned this because I do think that that is what makes the change at the end of the day and that could influence so much it will influence so much. And I'd love to know what your perspective is on the movements or activities that the music industry has done on this front the past two years. So after George Floyd's murder, there was a bunch of announcements and funding that when after the show must be paused, and all of that in the call was exactly what you're saying, we need more black executives that are making decisions that are the ones that are really pushing this culture forward, especially since it's their culture that is making this industry what it is. So how do you feel that that progress has been since a lot of those announcements were made by the industry? Kevin Liles 30:25 Not enough, and there's more work to be done. And it's one of the things that we hired a global diversity inclusion, the I would ever call officer named Dr. Smith. And when I came on, he's the first person to reach out, he said, we have $100 million, help me, help us change the world. We're not going to have a department, we're going to create the first-ever DEI Institute, and we're going to train people, we're going to go and find people in the organization and make them leaders in teaching cultural, cultural relevance, as far as it accompany cultural relevance and diversity of mindset and diversity of thought, not just color, we're going to find these change agents. No, I don't make this shit up. There's a lot of work to be done. But the reason that I'm at the more music group, and the reason I chose them is because Steve Cooper and Len Blavatnik have made in their mindset that we're going to change the world, and people who consume our products, who love our artists who buy our T-shirts, we want to have people in the C-Suite that look like them. And so that's a lot of fun work to be done. And once you're you know me, I'm not quiet. So I sit in the room and I tell everybody not charged. I said, “Guys, you can't announce $100 million and do things that don't change things.” Just not check the box. We're not doing it at the Warner Music Group. I never did it. I don't know how to check a box. I know how to create other boxes. I let everybody else do with it. Oh, we just did this? No, no, we created the DEI Institute around pingy equity, which is just amazing man, but a lot of work to be done all across the board. And I challenged every CEO, every chairman, every shareholder of a major corporations to challenge the company to allow that diversity to be in the C-Suite. It will change the company and it changing the company, will make more money.  Dan Runcie 32:14 Couldn't agree more. And I think too, this speaks to a lot of the work you've done, even you know, outside of just you know, running the music part of the record label, you've been active with HBCUs as a graduate of wind that you've wanted to make sure that mentorship programs and entrepreneurship supporting programs are there because you see that pipeline that you want to make sure that whether it's executives that want to go on to succeed in music or other places, the more that you can use your platform to help them the better off they'll be. Kevin Liles 32:44 I think it's very important. I did a centennial raise from Golden State. Dr. Rosso, shout out to Florida State HBCU person myself, and we raised $250 million. So we knew that was the biggest institutional raise of HBCU went on to had a big conversation. I speak on a circuit a lot. And it had a big conversation around what's the pipeline to get to be a state's attorney, or a FBI special agent or a CIA, you know what, and really, I didn't know, I got to be a police officer. That's what I saw, you know, but I didn't know I don't be a basketball player, football fan, because that's what I saw. And so another program that I launched two years ago, I think, maybe last year is what I had 60 presidents of HBCUs meet with the head of the FBI, and to show that when George Floyd happened, when Freddy Gary happened, the FBI came, but people who were looking into it, when people like us, they wouldn't play for communities, there was no trust. So I want to make sure before I'm done, there will be somebody every place that will affect our culture, and have a cultural point of view, and not just a title point of view. And so that's been and I'm a big advocate of education and entrepreneurship, I believe the school system should be blown up. And we should be teaching more entrepreneurism, and not teaching people how to go work for somebody, but teaching people how to join and actually want to be change agents and not just employees. So I'm going to continue the big fight between 15 and do the work. And again, I don't do that by myself. So shout out to Dr. Smith. Dan Runcie 34:24 That's good to hear. And I mean, I think you're right so much bad taps back into see where the pipeline they see how you can build it up in making sure that that leads to a promising career so people can whether it's they want to be their own boss or they want to do their own form of intrapreneurship whatever it is, the opportunities are there. One thing that I did want to talk about shifting back to music a bit. There's been an interesting movement I think happening right now where there is more of these, I call it the hip hop media personality that has come a bit more to rise and some of them You know, even some of the, you know, the artists that that 300 have definitely pushed back on some of these folks as well for someone, whether it's the things they've said or other things like that, it would be good to hear from your perspective, because I think this is not necessarily that these types of people didn't exist before. But I think social media obviously just makes the dynamic a little different. So what's your take on that dynamic? Kevin Liles 35:21 No different than, we used to write on a graffiti walls now, we write it off Facebook, was used to hand out flyers and posters. Now you have Instagram and WhatsApp and this Snapchat and all these things. And when you talk about these personalities, you don't remember Starbuck while how they were.  Dan Runcie 35:38 They were wild. They were wild. Kevin Liles 35:41 You don't remember how if you did any bit of R&B. You had to go to video. So with Donnie Simpson, you don't sit remember how sway and tech can wake up showing them what they were there. They just went on what one thing now with social media, it could be everywhere around the world. And we want those opinions. We want those pushbacks, we want those perspectives, because those things allow us to evolve as people we're not sociated for not some of them, we wouldn't be addressing some of the issues think about what Charlemagne and The Breakfast Club dude don't for mental health, you want that pushback, you want that conversation because we don't want to become stagnant as a people. And so to me, I put your nine out of 10 of my friends, Joe Biden, I signed him to be your I mean, Noriega, drink champion. Besides me, you don't mean to get Fat Joe, us you don't need to go down the list of these guys and girls around the world that have an actor that you need the crazy one, you need him to say what he wants to say, just to be thought-provoking, you know, but if you really get to know him, you know, he's Howard Stern, hip hop. That's his thing. And we don't want to do we don't not have a stern. There might be you do you're like it, you know, but you need the conversation. And I think even, what this happened with the Rogan guy, we need that conversation. As long as it is acceptable for you to use a word that you need the conversation the corporation's needed. And you need a Spotify to say, hey, we made an investment. We're gonna learn from this and teach from this, and you needed him to come on. I don't think he just apologize for his sponsors. I think that he felt that damn, you know, I never thought about it that way. Because I'm just repeating No, but even repeating is wrong. And so this is in the people that listen to him, trust me that backface was going on, they dress it up like this during all the shift is going on still. But I'm open. But I went all the smoke, bring me the motherfucking smoke because I want to have the conversation. I want to and the problem is we don't have the conversation. And so we operate in five items around things. No, I want to taste monster ball soup, which I want you to take some collard greens to I want you to go I want to go to the Trinidad festival and hang out Mardi Gras and all this. But yes, I want you to come to the hood celebration we build into the basketball is that to me, we don't have enough of the intermingling of cultures. And the lack of compensation has led to suicide, the lack of compensation has led to racism. And I knew when Barack Obama spent eight years I said, Oh, the next thing is gonna go left and be extremely other way. And then you got Donald Trump, I knew it was going to go in. But I also knew that we had to swing it back to the middle of the pendulum because he went too far left, and I can't wait to see some of the great leaders that will be born and find out of the conversation. You know, I always say we're living in biblical times. And was Moses, just a farmer competence was Job justice was married justice. No, damn, Max was the prophet. That shouldn't be a book of Acts, that shouldn't be a book of Jay, it shouldn't be a book of Todd. Because in these biblical times that we're in right now, when Moses parted the Red Sea for other people to get, there were some casualties of war. I gave my only begotten Son for us to move forward. And believe two people don't relate what we're going through as true biblical scriptures because we haven't put them all together. We call it the Bible. But there was a George Floyd in the Bible. There was a Freddie Gray in the Bible, and God bless their families and their soul. And all of them have taken on the mantle and said, his death, her death, this moment is meant to shift culture. It's meant to get people thinking a different way. And that's why again, I applaud all the noise, all the smoke, all the conversations that I have to have, and I do have a smile. Dan Runcie 39:30 That's a good point because if we think about the evolution of Howard Stern, I think about the evolution of a Charlemagne there's kind of this like, you start off and you say, the stuff that makes you be like, What did he just say? And then like, a few years later, I mean, you listen to more recent Howard Stern interviews, I mean, he sounds like you know, almost like a therapist on the couch, like, you know, just talking through things and we said similar stuff about Charlemagne, given some of the books that he's written and just how much of a topic that is for him, and he definitely doesn't do interviews the way he did back in 2013. All right, is the evolution there? So thinking about it in that perspective, yeah, we'll be very interested to see like, where ACC or you know, where some of the others are, you know, seven years from now because I think I agree with you, you know, I don't necessarily think that, you know, he is a bad person or anything like that. I think if anything, it's more so this is a product of the internet and what everything has incentivized no different than, you know, Starbuck wild were incentivized to say wild shit on you know, power and you know, back in the day, and then now, you know, whether it's activated on twitch or on YouTube or whatever channel, yes.  Kevin Liles 40:35 You got to be doing it for rabies. He's doing it for reach. He's doing it. It's so much noise out there that you have to sometimes it's like, our chief innovative officer is Young Thug, so Young Thug, wearing a dress that people know I'm fashion, fashion shouldn't be limited, you know, but think about prints with his ass out. Think about Michael Jack and think about these guys. And again, why shouldn't we allow people to have an opinion to that that's the problem I have with a lot of people. People are really afraid of freedom. Because freedom comes check too, there's good and bad and freedom. But you're free. You're free to say and be and act and we should not judge. But we should know that people are doing things for certain reasons. The bigger your audience becomes, the bigger your reach, the bigger you become. And we can't just have Howard there by himself, can't get him broken down by itself. So what did they do to get there? What did they do to get there? I got Russell call me 10 times. Dan Runcie 41:35 Oh, man, I do want to talk quick because yeah, I was gonna ask you about Thug being Chief Innovation Officer. So what does that role include? So what's what's on the agenda? Kevin Liles 41:45 Change the world, change the perspective, change the conversation, changed the ideation process, don't limit yourself be as free of a person as you can be. And I actually run stuff by him. I'm thinking about doing a hot challenge with HBCUs. And my goal is to help these bands raise money. So I want to do $25 A night and campus did it. I did some around Pusha P and I kept that's not p. I said to him, I think we should do you know, I have family business. But I think you are the biggest family with lash out. So we made it out. When you have an innovative officer, there's no limitations. There's no job description, it’s to touch taste and tone of his very existence that allows people to come up with new ways and things to do. You know, when Mary J. Blige said good morning, gorgeous. It was therapy for that young person that gets bullied, but it was also therapy for her coming off the ship that she came off for. And I kept her I said, guys, this is not a song. This is going to help people get through life. And people have started adopting it and dads are now looking at their daughter saying good morning, gorgeous, looking at their wife that they take for granted in the morning, and saying good morning. Gorgeous. I don't make this shit up. Everybody, be free. And Thug, I'll check with you later on about what I'm thinking about next. Make sure I got the cool factor on it.  Dan Runcie 43:08 Love it. Yeah, make sure he doesn't treat you like that pirate. He said, Alex, you're up. Kevin Liles 43:15 You couldn't make shit up. You couldn't make none of this up. You know what I mean, Dan Runcie 43:19 It's beautiful. Yeah, I mean, perfect timing for that. I mean, and just lining up with the album and everything. That was perfect. Kevin Liles 43:25 But it was not scripted. It was really cool. People started to show up the shows without you posted this thing.  Dan Runcie 43:36 Oh, man, that's what you know, you got a movement as well. You know, you got something. I will. Kevin, this has been great. Before we let you go though, is there anything else that you want to plug? Let the travel audience know about that 300 Hands on Deck. Kevin Liles 43:49 I don't know if it's a plug. But I'm in search of the truth. There's a lot of talent in the world. And the reason why I feel what it means we partnership 300, Electra Entertainment, Sparta, 300 Studios, I'm creating possibilities and platforms for you guys to come and help change the world. So I would just like to enlist your audience to say you don't just have to be an artist. You don't have to just do marketing, or digital or finance or legal. There is some place for you with us. And so I'm sure I'll come in and hang out and you and I finally get in the same space. We can have a dinner, but let's keep the narrative or where we going not where we were. Dan Runcie 44:33 Sounds good. And yeah, let's definitely do it. And Kevin, thanks again for coming on. And congrats to you again on great start to the year, big sale and everything. Keep trailblazing Kevin Liles 44:42 God bless you, man. Thank you. Appreciate it. Dan Runcie 44:44 Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Kevin Liles didn’t co-found 300 Entertainment just to sell it. He created it, first and foremost, to fill a void he saw in the music industry — a lack of talent development. Ten years after starting the 300 record label, it’s safe to say Kevin and company filled that void. By developing culture-shifting artists like Gunna, Megan Thee Stallion, Young Thug, among others, 300 has become one of the hottest commodities in all of hip-hop. This led to WMG buying the formerly-independent label for $400 million at the start of the new year.


In WMG, Kevin believes he’s found a partner with the “mindset of an independent, but the muscle of a major.” As the one-time EVP of WMG, Kevin would know this first-hand. And even with an influx of $400 million, Kevin isn’t going to change the way he makes decisions. For Kevin, it’s always been about prioritizing the cultural incentives rather than the financial ones. This mindset has followed him from Def Jam intern to its President and now as CEO of 300 & Elektra Music Group.


In-between running the label, Kevin has also invested resources in creating a pipeline for future music and entertainment execs with diverse backgrounds. In particular, Kevin has tapped into HBCUs, helping set up a $250 million fundraising campaign for his alma mater, Morgan State, and connecting students directly with the FBI.   


Kevin and I covered a lot of ground in this episode of the Trapital. Here are the show chapters:


[3:23] Behind 300 Entertainment’s Sale To Warner Music

[8:29] Gunna’s Meteoric Rise 

[10:29] How Phrases Like Hot Girl Summer & Pushin P Became A Thing 

[13:08] What Changes With WMG Partnership? 

[15:58] New Def Jam Video Game In The Works? 

[17:27] Launching 300 Studios 

[20:17] Kevin Thinks The Best Is Yet To Come For Hip Hop

[22:10] Hip Hop’s International Opportunity 

[24:23] Major Differences Between Running Def Jam vs. 300 

[28:10] The Power Of Diverse Execs Making Cultural, Not Financial Decisions

[30:25] How Music Industry Has Handled Diversity Issues Since George Floyd

[31:00] Kevin’s Attempt To Create Diverse Talent Pipeline

[32:14] The Rise Of Hip-Hop Media Personalities

[40:35] Young Thug’s Role As Chief Innovation Officer

[43:49] Keeping Narrative On The Future, Not Past




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Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Kevin Liles, IG: @kevinlileskwl, Twitter: @KevinLiles1

 

 

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TRANSCRIPTION

Kevin Liles 00:00

When you put diverse people at the head of the company, and you allow that person to make cultural decisions and not financial decisions on something that they don't know, so that young people run a company, they don't know they might go to a concert, but they don't know when a kid could come in, like I came in. And I saw Russell, I said, “Oh, he's the boss.” So you mean if you're the boss, you can move stuff that you want to people not only want to be an employee or work in music, no, they want to run companies. And until we as an industry, and really this is not just about the music industry, this is about the world. Until a CEO that looks like them, act like them talk like them, you know, that's when you unleash the true power of where we are in our culture.


Dan Runcie 00:56

Today's episode is with Kevin Liles, the Chairman and CEO of 300 Entertainment and Electro Music Group. Kevin's been one of the most influential record label executives of the past few decades. He ran Def Jam for seven years in the late 90s, early 2000s. And almost 10 years ago, he started 300 Entertainment, which he just sold to Warner for a $400 million deal. So we talked about everything that went into that decision, what it was like to sell the record label what a partnership with Warner looks like and how the record label can maintain its independent spirit under the umbrella of native record labels. We also talked about Gunner and how he's having one of the biggest years in hip hop right now and Pusha P and everything with that. We talked about Megan Thee Stallion and we talked about Thug. Did you know that Thug is Chief Innovation Officer at 300? When we talked all about that and what that means and a whole lot more. He also gave us the latest update on Def Jam Vendetta. You know the people that ask him at Def Jam Vendetta, they want to see the video game come back through. So we talked about that. We also talked to broader about IP. If you follow me on social media, you know that I want to see the story to hip hop record labels get the same type of TV anthology breakdowns that we're seeing now about Thera Nose and WeWork and Uber I want to see the same about Def Jam and Bad Boy and Rockefeller. And we talked a little bit about that too. It was a great conversation. I think it's always inspiring to talk to one of the most influential execs in hip hop that I believe really helped to make this culture what it is. Here's my chat with Kevin Liles. All right, today we got co-founder and CEO with 300. Entertainment Kevin Liles with us today. Hey, Kevin, I got to give you a shout out man, it feels like you've had one of the strongest starts to this year sold the record label, Gunner’s hit starting the year off strong. How does it feel?


Kevin Liles 02:43

It feels like another day at the office. People ask me all the time, Kevin, what's new, every day is new. Every day is a new opportunity. God woke me up and I feel there's a bigger purpose. And I feel the steps that we take, I don't look for number one albums, I don't look for to be, accolades or to be the best this or anything. I really just strive on doing this work that day. And I joke with somebody I said no with me, I'm never gonna be up too upset, they'll never be too sad. I will flow like water. And water is a very powerful thing because it helps grow. It changes direction with the most people around the world. So I feel like what is great about me.


Dan Runcie 03:23

I hear that. So talk to me a bit about the sale because that made big news, there was rumors about it happening towards the end of 2021. But walk me through that process. When did you first think about selling 300 and what went into the decision for you?


Kevin Liles 03:39

I never thought about selling. I don't build things to sell. I'm a serial entrepreneur, but I build things to change the world. And I find a void. And the void was the creation of 300 co-founders, the void was there was no true artist about it. When we talk about our students. I'm not just talking about developing a sound or developing of a person I'm saying we're raising young kids, young men, and women into the world. And so they need to have some have dads and we have moms and we had by my dad, but some have not, you know around them. So we need to be of service to their growth. So when people say what are you thinking about selling, I always was thinking about who was my best partner that I could have the independent of my mindset of independent, but the muscle of a major who's the best partner that independence will be in their DNA, who's the best partner that I could actually administer around the world, the good, the bad, the right the wrong and treat the body want to be treated. And so I'm not for sale. 300 as an entity I sold because I wanted entrepreneurs to learn what intrapreneurship was to add what tools in a toolboxes around the world, but you know, people can't be sold a company what I did was sold an asset that I felt could be a bigger asset to the world. I'd say do you think Steve, isn't a Jeff Bezos is still sitting in his garage. No. Do you think that guys are still in a dorm room? Yeah, I mean, Zuckerberg in a dorm room? No, no, we actually have a great idea, a great business, we're acquiring things, starting different things. So I believe the sale is something that people put too much emphasis on. Now, with that being said, I wanted also to create history. So if you think about Motown selling for 61 million, if you think about Def Jam, selling for 140 million on the face, on 425 million getting sold for 325, or even a man selling for 500 million in 27 years, eight years, we sold a company for $400 million. And so to me, I also think about legacy and history and what that means. So if people want to talk about the sale, talk about it in a way, that is historic for an African American, historic for a company, but it's also profitable for shareholders. And as a CEO, you know, we got to make sure the shareholders and the board a great, but I think the culture needed to see that it is a possibility to build something, sell something, become a bigger brand by doing it, but never lose the mindset of an independent.


Dan Runcie 06:13

I think that's an interesting good point, because so many of the big, whether it's the catalog sales, or the record label sales that we've seen over the past two years that we've seen this run happen, a lot of them haven't been with executives that are black, or executives that, you know, are just non-white men in general. So I think that the fact that you were able to do that shows and signals not just what you're capable of, but also what your artists are capable of, too. And I think as well on the partnership side, it's interesting because I think that 300, maybe, you know, relative to a lot of the other labels that were independent before people may have thought that “Oh, well. 300 is just as powerful as some of the majors or you know, definitely has the same firepower behind it.” But it sounds like what you're saying is that, yeah, even with all that we've accomplished, there's still more that we can have, you know, with the backing and with the further partnership of a company like a Warner.


Kevin Liles 07:11

We shocked the world where we had more Grammys than the majors but magazine three Grammys, you know, we shot the world that we put out and we're up against a major and had the number one album in the first week out as this little independent thing, you got to realize all the stuff that's happening now is still stuff we've set up last year. And so as we go into this year, just look for us to be doing hashtag bigger family business, not just family business, but bigger family business.


Dan Runcie 07:37

Yeah, I hear that. And I think too, talking about the artists that were able to do things, I mean, Ghana has been the poster child so far this year, at least when it comes to hip hop, I mean, not just him getting the number one single but him being the weekend, but then had everything surrounding around Pusha P and everything there. I mean, I assume that has to feel pretty good. Because I think it's so tough, especially in this era, to have superstars and people that are on the verge of superstar status to kind of grow in get there with so much noise and so much other artists that are coming through whether it's independence or others. So the fact that he's able to, you know, not show to he compete, but outsell other superstars, I think shows a lot of not just the potential, but also that this is still possible in this era, we can still have the biggest stars continue to reach further heights.


Kevin Liles 08:29

Yeah, I think you'd want to talk about true artist development and from the dropping of drip Season One, two, and three, and one. And all those things, you got to realize that young kid was just sitting by bug in the studio learning and he never stopped learning, we never stopped evolving. And when you saw him perform with commitment to balance, open up the brands, you know, one year, he's all things that became attainable to him and through by us the work that went into ds for the thoughtfulness of how it started, ebb and flows of it, of how many girl records should I have on it? What am I trying to say? I can't say I'm dripping. And I'm not really drip. So I have to be in every fashion show or it just you know, the thoughtfulness. We're not just putting out records, if you want to do that, that's not 300. 300 is thoughtful. 300 is taking the time to understand where an artist is in their career. Where is it a mixtape time isn't an album time? Is it collab time? These are all things that because people don't have the relationships with the artists, then if the artists house or going on vacation, they can't really communicate. You know, obviously, you can't hand me something without an owner's name. I have to know everything about it so I can assist. You know, Gunner is more than an RC you can, he's a human being but he's also a very good friend. You know, Evany his manager is not just a manager. She's a system that could be a daughter to me, and I have a responsibility to develop another young woman in our industry. So to me, what are we Pusha P whenever we have Hot Girl Summer, well we attract cooling it or you know, Savage in it, whatever you whatever one you want to a week bad and bougie in it. But everyone you want to pick up. We don't just, you know have moments we make movies.


Dan Runcie 10:15

I like that you mentioned that because you have had so many I feel like every year every other year, there's some moment that 300 is able to capture some term that they're able to introduce something in the water like power, y'all always the ones that have the terms on lock. 


Kevin Liles 10:29

You know, I think it's a great commentary to the great artists and the great creators and the great executives that we have run if we don't make this shit up. We didn't go to FedWatch and say, Yo, do trap boo. We didn't go to mag and say have a hot girl summer. We don't go to yo, guess what the Gunner we go, Pusha P, that's not how it happens. It happens because we provide a safe place for ideation, creativity, and opportunities for people to fail. But failure is a learning experience. You know, when Marvin Gaye wanted to do what's going on, and it was an appointment, and what his biggest-selling album, it was just where he was in life. ps4 is where Gunner is in life. Punk was where thug was in life. You can't go through manufacture in the ship. And it's not cultural. And if it's not cultural, then it really can't be 300 to me, and that's really the message and one of the great things about being able to take over the electrode of entertainers we've also it's in their ethos, we have great labels like FBI, FDR, Roadrunner, iconic labels that started with founders that had a point of view. And so to me, as long as I have a point of view, as long as it be cultural, as long as I could have the independent mindset, I'm good. And I'm doing it all, again to raise great young men and women, web executives or artists. But I really believe God wakes me up to change the world. I really believe it is not even a question in my mind. And so I want to get better. I want to be a better father, a better operator, a better friend. And if you always challenge yourself that there is more, that there is more to do. If you reimagine and rethink and things you will see God will answer you in so many great way. Do you think that the VR sold a company eight months ago now months ago, Mary Jane, you connected? Did you think she was performing at the Superbowl? Do you think that the Super Bowl, who would be it they'd be run by Jay Z? Do you think that like, we don't make this up? This is I can't tell you, I can just thank God, and thank the people around me for believing that they do have a bigger mission.


Dan Runcie 12:37

And I think with this too, you build something so special, you talked a lot about that independent spirit that I think carry through with artists development with how your artists became the culture-makers that they are. And I gotta wonder, though, with the partnership with Warner now, of course, you're giving up a little bit of control in exchange for the power, it helps you put behind the artists. But is there any concern or any thought about okay, what will that look like? Or how may that potentially shift if we're seeding some of that control or some of that power?


Kevin Liles 13:08

Then, you see, I'm the wrong guy to accept because I never felt like I worked in the back. I always feel like give me the mission, give me assignment. And let me do that. Again, great thing about this opportunity, Julie Greenwald. And I ran Def Jam together along with Leah, Julie was an assistant I was starting to enter. So she knows everything about me. She knows where the bodies buried, she knows the good, the bad, the ugly, maximum side I work with as a concrete colleague for 9, 10 years, you know, he knows the good, the bad. And so I'm a position player. So if I need to be the coach to quarterback, the running back, then I have enough tools in my toolbox to play whatever position and so I never give up control. Because nobody does what I do can't keep that and so I never look at it. But we can you know, you have a boss now. Okay, what does that mean? They have a great employee. Oh, Kevin, Kevin, for your artists. They can't know we do what we do. But now we do it. It's hashtag bigger family business that it's just again, I'm not the guy that when you take on additional investment that you change, I believe the thing about 300, thing about Def Jam, these were things that were built out of necessity, and we curated them in a cultural way, not in a financial way. Not we saw a need to do Def Comedy Jam. We saw a need to have fat farm and baby fat. We saw a need to make Def Jam Vendetta and Fight For New York. You know, we saw a need to be heavily involved in political races and important countries. We saw a need that the State's Attorneys in every city can help us change the narrative around who's going while going and why they're in jail and they should be out of jail. We just saw see things because we're out in the streets without it every single day. That doesn't mean everybody has to be Mona, what it means is you have to be in touch with who you are, why you are, what your purpose is. And that is what I challenge. But listen, I don't deal with coke cans and cigars and shit talk back to me. These are real people in, my people know they have the freedom, the freedom to disagree, the freedom to try. And when you have a bunch of risk-takers, like we have in Max and we have and Julie and we have and the rest of the team and I have two great kids and rating Celine that most people wouldn't give them the power that I've given them. But remember, they may be president and CEO of Def Jam at age 30. So, to me, this is just a great opportunity for us to do what we do never change who we are.


Dan Runcie 15:42

I hear that. And you mentioned Def Jam Vendetta. So we got to talk about that. Because I think it was last year, you put out a little teaser. You said hey, do you all want another sequel? You want another one? So where's that ad? What are you thinking about for the future of the Def Jam video game?


Kevin Liles 15:58

I don't know if you saw the tweet about it yesterday. But he said, Man, we need another one. Because back and Snoop it oh my god, it's timing. For me. It's working with the right partner. At that time, Electronic Arts was the right partner, they allowed me to curate it without the limitations of “Oh, but we're Electronic Arts. Oh, and you know,” so when I find the right gaming button, and if you're out there, let me know, when I find the right gaming partner that wants to experience gaming in a way that I see it culturally, it'll come back out. But until then, I'll keep having the conversations until I find the right one.


Dan Runcie 16:34

That makes sense, because I think what we're talking about at the end of the day is just how valuable the IP and the brand is, and everything that you all had created, whether it's what you had done at Def Jam, or what you've now done this past decade with 300 and one of the things I've started to take notice to now is we're this way right now with media TV, where we're seeing all of these TV anthology series about the rise and fall of these tech companies. Right, we got the Theranos one, we got the WeWork one, we got the Uber one. And I want to see the same for the Def Jams and the Bad Boys. And I want to see all of that. And I feel like if we're having the conversations about the video games, it's only going to be a matter of time before we're going to see those as well. We want to get back to the early 2000s Def Jam or the Rockefeller run and see who would all play you all I feel like that's it has to be happening in at least a couple of years.


Kevin Liles 17:27

So one of the reasons why I created 300 Studios is because I haven't told full stories in a long time. And so you can check the credits for whether it was how high the show ended things that we did back in the day rush hour. And those things that we've been able to be a part of why did I get married a Tyler Perry was daddy's little girl and go down to this though, things that we've been able to help curate. There was a reason why I wanted him studios to not only tell the audio stories around 300, but I wanted to tell digital stories. And I had the great pleasure of finding Kelly Nolan. And they believe in the vision. And you know, within two years, we had our first doc on February 26 called Race, Bubba Wallace. And it was the only African American Cup Series driver and his trials and tribulations of not having any sponsorship to now winning races and changing the current federal flag and mascot. I didn't say hey, here's the script. But here's what's gonna happen NASCAR, here's what you're gonna have a guy come in and actually curate and trust in the brands of 2311 racing, you know, with Jordan, and Denny, Toyota, McDonald's DoorDash, all these things with the background of raising a young kid in a sport that you can't even afford to be in. You know, I mean, you just 20, $30 million, you have to have caused the crash. I know that. So again, I wanted to educate people on the sport but also wanted to take them on a journey that a lot of people have never taken with NASCAR. So I appreciate everything. And yes, there will be a story, there will be more Word docs. And I do plan because I'm going for decades in the business now telling the true stories of all of these iconic brands and iconic people and friends and people who shaped the world and conversation. I do plan on telling the story. 


Dan Runcie 19:14

Yeah, I think people would love to hear that. I feel like that is where things are obviously heading with all of the IP that's being created. And I feel like especially for you all I mean, it's interesting now because we just see the histology of how everything is, you know, we're looking back and people are talking fondly about that late 90s, early 2000s run and it's only going to be a matter of time before people look back at this particular era. Not even just with hip hop, but music more broadly. And just seeing how many shifts this music industry has had. And I feel like the past few years, we're on the verge of another one as well. The revenue has been, you know, the highest that it's been at least since the CD era, and that I think has influenced a lot of these deals that we've seen and we're now seeing all This activity with web three NFTs and everything else. I mean, as someone who has seen it, you know the highs and the lows of it as you said, you know, you're definitely have the you know, be like water mentality. When that said, it must be really exciting to also see all the possibilities of where you could tap into.


Kevin Liles 20:17

Listen, all I can tell you, I was at the Super Bowl, the biggest stage in the world with Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, Eminem, 50 Cent, Mary J. Blige at the Super Bowl. So if you don't know the possibilities, we have the number one music in the world when they used to tell us, you'll be a fad. They used to say we play more music and less rap. Now everybody's saying we're just stationary hip hop, and Baba, Baba. And everybody when people didn't realize, and I'm sure they're not sure how old you are. But when I was in the car growing up, I was listening to the Temptations, and Diana Ross and Aretha Franklin because that's my Mom, listen to. But now, as adults, what we listen, I listen to hip hop. So that that's been for the last 30 years. So now you have hip hop parents, you have a President of the United States, in Iraq, who knows hip hop, you have mayors and governors and lordships and keep losing, that grew up on hip hop. So you have not seen the greatness of our culture, yet, you're starting to see the seeds being planted. I truly believe that with the continent coming into play with India, coming into play, these underdeveloped nations, oh, man, this will be so many stories to be told, in a way through a hip hop lens. So I'm just excited more say, I just hope they'll still let me be around. As long as God keeps giving these gifts, I'll stay with the rope.


Dan Runcie 21:44

I hear that, and I think the international expansion is just being so key to so many record labels, moving Making Moves, whether it's in India, in East Asia, in Africa, as well. And I know that you all have, you know, made moves in that perspective as well. What do you see is that opportunity, especially in the next few years? I mean, I know that having Warner behind can definitely help from an international push from that perspective. But what do you see as an opportunity.


Kevin Liles 22:10 

One of the biggest issues that I was having is I didn't have my Rolodex is 40,000 people, but I only had 75 people working for me, couldn't reach those, I got the calls from the biggest artists in France and the biggest artists in Germany and the biggest artist in London, and I couldn't serve them in a way that they need to be served. Remember, early on, I knew where hip hop was going, Leon Russell, we thought about your Def Jam UK, Def Jam Germany, Def Jam France, Def Jam Japan, we were just too early. And those countries did not have the voice. They didn't have their own voice. They were emulating what we were doing, because we were starting the creation of it. But now you go to any of those major territories, they have their own voice, the biggest artists in that territory is from that territory. It's not us coming there. And so as a proud steward of our culture, I think the opportunity is on steroids right now, because I'm going to be able to not only help artists, but also help creators and executives realize that set up their own iPhones in their own territories, because they can say shit 300 to do that. The guy was this is his third time. Oh, if they can do it, look what we could do. And so we're starting that also. So I can only thank again, you know, Max and Julie for believing in what we're creating, loving, independent spirit, but also remembering that Do It Yourself, DIY thing, nobody does it themselves. You know, that's like saying you gonna have a baby by yourself. No! You will get married by yourself. No, you don't do, you don't do anything by yourself. And there's not one global artists around the world that did it ourselves. So I believe in collaboration, I believe in partnership. But again, the mindset has to be independent.


Dan Runcie 23:50

I think the piece that you mentioned on the differences of when you're running Def Jam 20 years ago, versus now especially on the international front is key because as you mentioned, a lot of those regions didn't have the developed music ecosystem that they do. So it was often, forget your artists there as opposed to now they have their own superstars. What are some of the other major differences that you've experienced from now being a major label executive in this decade as opposed to what it was like for you Def Jam 20 years ago?


Kevin Liles 24:23

People didn't notice them. What the fuck was talking about? They didn't understand the cultural thing. They understood the numbers, but they didn't understand what I was somewhere why I would say no, I don't want to pay, when I want to go play a tape in London to small club that I will do that 10 times before I do it. They didn't understand why. I mean, even inside the company, he said, Well, we shouldn't take Trey Songz to London, because he doesn't have the big radio record there. And I'm like, people stream their people buy music. They're people and I know when I go there, and I'm doing 500,000 to 2000 or 5000 people in shows that they just do. He's not developed enough to understand that shit moves without all the triggers sometimes. And so it was funny. We went there, and somebody said, boot camp, you know, I know you want to play, you know, 5,000 seaters, but we sold out two nights on it. So maybe we should start playing arenas? And my answer was no because we're not ready for it yet. Let me keep curating keep going through the process. And seeing and I've seen bands that haven't had one hit, but they can sell out in a real way. And that that to me, I'm so excited. There's a young lady from the UK named Pink Patras that I'm so excited about where she's going her aesthetic who shipped to the capital labor, there's no label you can put on I'm excited that if you take a look at Megan Thee Stallion schedule for the next year, she's paying every major festival around the world. So think about what that what's that gonna do for her development, allow her to become a product of her experiences, not just her limited environment, think about what she's going to write. I remember a long time ago, Lulu, Chris and I went to Africa. And then I hate the song, the best women for Africa. Oh, yeah. Jay Z, and I took our first private plane. And then you start talking about the airport, you don't mean your first trip to the South of France, you don't mean? These are the experiences that allow for great storytelling that allow for evolution, not just of an artist, but also the narrative of the employees and executives that take those journeys with. 


Dan Runcie 26:30

That makes me think too, about snooping around with the music and the beautiful music video and that spot a landmark, you know, like, people want to go there and take pictures and be like, No, I was as powerful. It really is. I mean, for me, one of the other things I think about too, that's just changed so much from you know, back when you're at Def Jam to now with 300 is because of streaming and the Internet and so much, now, people respect much more what you were trying to do then because they realize it and I think obviously streaming helped level a lot of the playing fields side, big hip hop and r&b soul. So many lot, so much black music was able to reach more of its true potential in terms of just how easily it could spread, because there's less gatekeepers, right. And I think I'm interested to see, okay, how that continues to go. And what are the things that may continue to rehab that, you know, whether it's boost further, or have it reach even more of its potential? Because to your point, I agree with that, we still haven't reached the maximum point or we still have it, you know, really been able to have the whole world really tap into what's happening here. So I'm curious to you know, as I'm thinking through what the next decade looks like, what are those things going to be the same way how, you know, streaming and social media help level the playing field for a lot of this genre of music like is whether it's, you know, Web 3.0, or NFTs or the Metaverse is that going to be the next thing that'll help even more of the hip hop artists in r&b and soul reach their full potential. 


Kevin Liles 28:01

It's an output to you so straight that all that shit is good and as always, we evolution that we're going to go from the small two way pages to now the cell phone game and remote control, all that shit, technological change cassette to CD and all that stuff is gonna change our biggest power. And I'm a living example of it is when you put diverse people at the head of the company, and you allow that person to make cultural decisions and not financial decisions on something that they don't know. So that young people run a company, they don't know, they might go to a concert, but they don't know when a kid could come in, like I came in. And I saw Russell, I said, Oh, he the boss. So you mean if you're the boss, you can move stuff that you want to people not only want to be an employee or work in music, no, they want to run companies. And until we as an industry, and really, this is not just about the music industry, this is about the world until the consumers today see a CEO that looks like them, act like them, talk like them, you know, that's when you unleash the true power of where we are in our culture. The C-Suite does not represent what we're selling, and until you get that you're not going to maximize it, but it's coming because I plan on my fucking changes. I'm gonna let them know now that guys, I'm nowhere near done. This is just a, I'm on chapter one. Fuck it. I don't care what what we say. And I'm going to make sure part of my legacy is to make sure I have planted enough seeds that you know, the next CEO, CEOs of tech companies and men of various and this first in that verse, whatever you want to call it, they have representation of a culture that's using it.


Dan Runcie 29:38

Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned this because I do think that that is what makes the change at the end of the day and that could influence so much it will influence so much. And I'd love to know what your perspective is on the movements or activities that the music industry has done on this front the past two years. So after George Floyd's murder, there was a bunch of announcements and funding that when after the show must be paused, and all of that in the call was exactly what you're saying, we need more black executives that are making decisions that are the ones that are really pushing this culture forward, especially since it's their culture that is making this industry what it is. So how do you feel that that progress has been since a lot of those announcements were made by the industry?


Kevin Liles 30:25

Not enough, and there's more work to be done. And it's one of the things that we hired a global diversity inclusion, the I would ever call officer named Dr. Smith. And when I came on, he's the first person to reach out, he said, we have $100 million, help me, help us change the world. We're not going to have a department, we're going to create the first-ever DEI Institute, and we're going to train people, we're going to go and find people in the organization and make them leaders in teaching cultural, cultural relevance, as far as it accompany cultural relevance and diversity of mindset and diversity of thought, not just color, we're going to find these change agents. No, I don't make this shit up. There's a lot of work to be done. But the reason that I'm at the more music group, and the reason I chose them is because Steve Cooper and Len Blavatnik have made in their mindset that we're going to change the world, and people who consume our products, who love our artists who buy our T-shirts, we want to have people in the C-Suite that look like them. And so that's a lot of fun work to be done. And once you're you know me, I'm not quiet. So I sit in the room and I tell everybody not charged. I said, “Guys, you can't announce $100 million and do things that don't change things.” Just not check the box. We're not doing it at the Warner Music Group. I never did it. I don't know how to check a box. I know how to create other boxes. I let everybody else do with it. Oh, we just did this? No, no, we created the DEI Institute around pingy equity, which is just amazing man, but a lot of work to be done all across the board. And I challenged every CEO, every chairman, every shareholder of a major corporations to challenge the company to allow that diversity to be in the C-Suite. It will change the company and it changing the company, will make more money. 


Dan Runcie 32:14

Couldn't agree more. And I think too, this speaks to a lot of the work you've done, even you know, outside of just you know, running the music part of the record label, you've been active with HBCUs as a graduate of wind that you've wanted to make sure that mentorship programs and entrepreneurship supporting programs are there because you see that pipeline that you want to make sure that whether it's executives that want to go on to succeed in music or other places, the more that you can use your platform to help them the better off they'll be.


Kevin Liles 32:44

I think it's very important. I did a centennial raise from Golden State. Dr. Rosso, shout out to Florida State HBCU person myself, and we raised $250 million. So we knew that was the biggest institutional raise of HBCU went on to had a big conversation. I speak on a circuit a lot. And it had a big conversation around what's the pipeline to get to be a state's attorney, or a FBI special agent or a CIA, you know what, and really, I didn't know, I got to be a police officer. That's what I saw, you know, but I didn't know I don't be a basketball player, football fan, because that's what I saw. And so another program that I launched two years ago, I think, maybe last year is what I had 60 presidents of HBCUs meet with the head of the FBI, and to show that when George Floyd happened, when Freddy Gary happened, the FBI came, but people who were looking into it, when people like us, they wouldn't play for communities, there was no trust. So I want to make sure before I'm done, there will be somebody every place that will affect our culture, and have a cultural point of view, and not just a title point of view. And so that's been and I'm a big advocate of education and entrepreneurship, I believe the school system should be blown up. And we should be teaching more entrepreneurism, and not teaching people how to go work for somebody, but teaching people how to join and actually want to be change agents and not just employees. So I'm going to continue the big fight between 15 and do the work. And again, I don't do that by myself. So shout out to Dr. Smith.


Dan Runcie 34:24

That's good to hear. And I mean, I think you're right so much bad taps back into see where the pipeline they see how you can build it up in making sure that that leads to a promising career so people can whether it's they want to be their own boss or they want to do their own form of intrapreneurship whatever it is, the opportunities are there. One thing that I did want to talk about shifting back to music a bit. There's been an interesting movement I think happening right now where there is more of these, I call it the hip hop media personality that has come a bit more to rise and some of them You know, even some of the, you know, the artists that that 300 have definitely pushed back on some of these folks as well for someone, whether it's the things they've said or other things like that, it would be good to hear from your perspective, because I think this is not necessarily that these types of people didn't exist before. But I think social media obviously just makes the dynamic a little different. So what's your take on that dynamic?


Kevin Liles 35:21

No different than, we used to write on a graffiti walls now, we write it off Facebook, was used to hand out flyers and posters. Now you have Instagram and WhatsApp and this Snapchat and all these things. And when you talk about these personalities, you don't remember Starbuck while how they were. 


Dan Runcie 35:38

They were wild. They were wild.


Kevin Liles 35:41

You don't remember how if you did any bit of R&B. You had to go to video. So with Donnie Simpson, you don't sit remember how sway and tech can wake up showing them what they were there. They just went on what one thing now with social media, it could be everywhere around the world. And we want those opinions. We want those pushbacks, we want those perspectives, because those things allow us to evolve as people we're not sociated for not some of them, we wouldn't be addressing some of the issues think about what Charlemagne and The Breakfast Club dude don't for mental health, you want that pushback, you want that conversation because we don't want to become stagnant as a people. And so to me, I put your nine out of 10 of my friends, Joe Biden, I signed him to be your I mean, Noriega, drink champion. Besides me, you don't mean to get Fat Joe, us you don't need to go down the list of these guys and girls around the world that have an actor that you need the crazy one, you need him to say what he wants to say, just to be thought-provoking, you know, but if you really get to know him, you know, he's Howard Stern, hip hop. That's his thing. And we don't want to do we don't not have a stern. There might be you do you're like it, you know, but you need the conversation. And I think even, what this happened with the Rogan guy, we need that conversation. As long as it is acceptable for you to use a word that you need the conversation the corporation's needed. And you need a Spotify to say, hey, we made an investment. We're gonna learn from this and teach from this, and you needed him to come on. I don't think he just apologize for his sponsors. I think that he felt that damn, you know, I never thought about it that way. Because I'm just repeating No, but even repeating is wrong. And so this is in the people that listen to him, trust me that backface was going on, they dress it up like this during all the shift is going on still. But I'm open. But I went all the smoke, bring me the motherfucking smoke because I want to have the conversation. I want to and the problem is we don't have the conversation. And so we operate in five items around things. No, I want to taste monster ball soup, which I want you to take some collard greens to I want you to go I want to go to the Trinidad festival and hang out Mardi Gras and all this. But yes, I want you to come to the hood celebration we build into the basketball is that to me, we don't have enough of the intermingling of cultures. And the lack of compensation has led to suicide, the lack of compensation has led to racism. And I knew when Barack Obama spent eight years I said, Oh, the next thing is gonna go left and be extremely other way. And then you got Donald Trump, I knew it was going to go in. But I also knew that we had to swing it back to the middle of the pendulum because he went too far left, and I can't wait to see some of the great leaders that will be born and find out of the conversation. You know, I always say we're living in biblical times. And was Moses, just a farmer competence was Job justice was married justice. No, damn, Max was the prophet. That shouldn't be a book of Acts, that shouldn't be a book of Jay, it shouldn't be a book of Todd. Because in these biblical times that we're in right now, when Moses parted the Red Sea for other people to get, there were some casualties of war. I gave my only begotten Son for us to move forward. And believe two people don't relate what we're going through as true biblical scriptures because we haven't put them all together. We call it the Bible. But there was a George Floyd in the Bible. There was a Freddie Gray in the Bible, and God bless their families and their soul. And all of them have taken on the mantle and said, his death, her death, this moment is meant to shift culture. It's meant to get people thinking a different way. And that's why again, I applaud all the noise, all the smoke, all the conversations that I have to have, and I do have a smile.


Dan Runcie 39:30

That's a good point because if we think about the evolution of Howard Stern, I think about the evolution of a Charlemagne there's kind of this like, you start off and you say, the stuff that makes you be like, What did he just say? And then like, a few years later, I mean, you listen to more recent Howard Stern interviews, I mean, he sounds like you know, almost like a therapist on the couch, like, you know, just talking through things and we said similar stuff about Charlemagne, given some of the books that he's written and just how much of a topic that is for him, and he definitely doesn't do interviews the way he did back in 2013. All right, is the evolution there? So thinking about it in that perspective, yeah, we'll be very interested to see like, where ACC or you know, where some of the others are, you know, seven years from now because I think I agree with you, you know, I don't necessarily think that, you know, he is a bad person or anything like that. I think if anything, it's more so this is a product of the internet and what everything has incentivized no different than, you know, Starbuck wild were incentivized to say wild shit on you know, power and you know, back in the day, and then now, you know, whether it's activated on twitch or on YouTube or whatever channel, yes. 


Kevin Liles 40:35

You got to be doing it for rabies. He's doing it for reach. He's doing it. It's so much noise out there that you have to sometimes it's like, our chief innovative officer is Young Thug, so Young Thug, wearing a dress that people know I'm fashion, fashion shouldn't be limited, you know, but think about prints with his ass out. Think about Michael Jack and think about these guys. And again, why shouldn't we allow people to have an opinion to that that's the problem I have with a lot of people. People are really afraid of freedom. Because freedom comes check too, there's good and bad and freedom. But you're free. You're free to say and be and act and we should not judge. But we should know that people are doing things for certain reasons. The bigger your audience becomes, the bigger your reach, the bigger you become. And we can't just have Howard there by himself, can't get him broken down by itself. So what did they do to get there? What did they do to get there? I got Russell call me 10 times.


Dan Runcie 41:35

Oh, man, I do want to talk quick because yeah, I was gonna ask you about Thug being Chief Innovation Officer. So what does that role include? So what's what's on the agenda?


Kevin Liles 41:45

Change the world, change the perspective, change the conversation, changed the ideation process, don't limit yourself be as free of a person as you can be. And I actually run stuff by him. I'm thinking about doing a hot challenge with HBCUs. And my goal is to help these bands raise money. So I want to do $25 A night and campus did it. I did some around Pusha P and I kept that's not p. I said to him, I think we should do you know, I have family business. But I think you are the biggest family with lash out. So we made it out. When you have an innovative officer, there's no limitations. There's no job description, it’s to touch taste and tone of his very existence that allows people to come up with new ways and things to do. You know, when Mary J. Blige said good morning, gorgeous. It was therapy for that young person that gets bullied, but it was also therapy for her coming off the ship that she came off for. And I kept her I said, guys, this is not a song. This is going to help people get through life. And people have started adopting it and dads are now looking at their daughter saying good morning, gorgeous, looking at their wife that they take for granted in the morning, and saying good morning. Gorgeous. I don't make this shit up. Everybody, be free. And Thug, I'll check with you later on about what I'm thinking about next. Make sure I got the cool factor on it. 


Dan Runcie 43:08

Love it. Yeah, make sure he doesn't treat you like that pirate. He said, Alex, you're up.


Kevin Liles 43:15

You couldn't make shit up. You couldn't make none of this up. You know what I mean,


Dan Runcie 43:19

It's beautiful. Yeah, I mean, perfect timing for that. I mean, and just lining up with the album and everything. That was perfect.


Kevin Liles 43:25

But it was not scripted. It was really cool. People started to show up the shows without you posted this thing. 


Dan Runcie 43:36

Oh, man, that's what you know, you got a movement as well. You know, you got something. I will. Kevin, this has been great. Before we let you go though, is there anything else that you want to plug? Let the travel audience know about that 300 Hands on Deck.


Kevin Liles 43:49

I don't know if it's a plug. But I'm in search of the truth. There's a lot of talent in the world. And the reason why I feel what it means we partnership 300, Electra Entertainment, Sparta, 300 Studios, I'm creating possibilities and platforms for you guys to come and help change the world. So I would just like to enlist your audience to say you don't just have to be an artist. You don't have to just do marketing, or digital or finance or legal. There is some place for you with us. And so I'm sure I'll come in and hang out and you and I finally get in the same space. We can have a dinner, but let's keep the narrative or where we going not where we were.


Dan Runcie 44:33

Sounds good. And yeah, let's definitely do it. And Kevin, thanks again for coming on. And congrats to you again on great start to the year, big sale and everything. Keep trailblazing


Kevin Liles 44:42

God bless you, man. Thank you. Appreciate it.


Dan Runcie 44:44

Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2834 no How Quality Control Music Invests in Startups https://www.trapital.com/podcast Dazayah Walker is the Head of Investments at Quality Control Music, the label behind today’s most trendsetting artists like Lil Baby and Migos, Dazayah. She maintains QC’s investment portfolio, particularly within the startup space, which spans well beyond just music and entertainment. Being a 23-year-old venture capitalist is difficult as is. Now tack on being female and black? “It’s been a journey”, as Dazayah Walker shares with us in this episode of the Trapital podcast. Dazayah’s path to becoming a Venture Capitalist is as unorthodox as you’ll find in the venture capital world, but she’s stuck to the same principles that got her that opportunity to begin with — seeking out mentors, surrounding herself with a supportive community, and taking the learning process day-by-day. Before overseeing QC’s investments, Dazayah worked on the music side for the label. She began as an intern for QC, and worked her way through the ranks at the same time QC was taking the music industry by storm.  Not only is Dazayah breaking down doors, but she’s also trying to leave them open for future aspiring VC’s with similar unconventional backgrounds. As Dazayah continues to learn the ins and outs of venture capital, she plans on creating initiatives to educate others about the world she operates in. To hear Dazayah’s future ambitions, plus everything else we covered in the show, reference the video chapters below:  [0:00] Dazayah’s goals with her role [2:13] Dazayah’s Transition Into Venture Capital [5:29] What Is QC’s Investment Thesis?  [6:35] The Pros And Cons Of Involving QC Artists Into Investments [9:16] What Does Dazayah Look For In A Company Before Investing?  [10:49] QC Investing Beyond Just Music and Entertainment  [10:45] Dazayah’s particular interest in Fintech [12:56] QC’s and Dazayah’s Involvement With Techstars [14:48] The Challenge Dazayah Faced Breaking Into The VC World [16:04] What Programs Have Helped Dazayah Adjust To The VC World?  [17:40] What Was Behind QC’s Investment Into Riff?  [18:50] QC’s Investment Portfolio Explained  [20:00] “You Can Do This Too And This Is How” [23:30] Music-Wise, What Is Dazayah Most Excited About QC In Near Future? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Dazayah Walker, @dazayah       Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands ----------- Dazayah Walker 00:00 Finding success here and having a strong track record and proven portfolio and then be able to use that as a way to show people you can do this too, and this is how, let me show you how, let me be that person to help you understand and be a part of it. Dan Runcie 00:23 Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Dazayah Walker, Head of Investments and the Operations Manager at Quality Control Music. This is an exciting role to have at a time like this. QC has been on a run the past few years and has really shaped what hip hop is sounded like, from artists like Migos, to City Girls, to Lil Baby, and then on the other side of this hip hop investing activity is growing faster than ever, and we're seeing more and more artists getting ICAP tables, getting involved with deals. So it's a really exciting time to have a role like this. I talked with Dazayah about what it's been like from her perspective, and representing and getting roles not just for QC as a firm, but for the artists that they represent, and how she has navigated the record label growing as fast as it has the past few years to venture capital landscape and how she's been able to navigate that and a whole lot more. Had a great conversation with her. Hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Dazayah Walker. All right, we got Dazayah Walker here today, who is the Head of Investments at Quality Control Music. Dazayah, welcome to the pod.  Dazayah Walker 01:42 Hello, I'm so happy to be here. Super excited. Let's do this.  Dan Runcie 01:46 Yeah, so one of the things that stuck out to me about you and your career, you had started as an intern at QC, and you've risen up the ranks there as the label as not just a record label, but as an entertainment company. And now with a corporate venture arm or brollies just continue to grow and expand.  Dazayah Walker 02:05 Yes.  Dan Runcie 02:06 Walk me through the steps. What was it like from when you started to where it is now, just with how fast things have been growing there?  Dazayah Walker 02:13 Yeah, it's been a great journey and experience for me, with this being my first job. There's been a lot of learning curves with that in itself. But it was definitely a privilege and a great opportunity to be able to see the growth of QC, because we've expanded in so many different ways since I started as an intern, and being able to be a part of that, witness that, learn from that I couldn't be in a better position.  Dan Runcie 02:36 And is there anything specific with the role that you have now that had drawn you to it or something specifically because I know you had started a bit more focused on operations? And then now we're obviously seeing much more on the investment side. But was there something about that opportunity that pulled you in?  Dazayah Walker 02:52 Yes, so getting to this side was definitely a path of, I would say divine ordering because me entering the opportunity at QC. Starting as an intern, I thought I just wanted to do music, work my way up to being a music industry executive. But as I became more in the groove, and learning more of the things that I like, things that I don't like, I really had to find my place. And when I discovered what venture capital was, because when I was at Spelman, I was an economics major. So I kind of have like, I've always been surrounded by that when I was in school, just the finance, track and everything like that. But me venturing into music was me following my passion or what I thought was my passion at that time. So when I discovered what venture capital was, it was actually kind of crazy to me that I hadn't learned about it when I was in school, considering the impact that Morehouse, our brother institution has, as far as their representation of black men in venture capital. It was just crazy to me that I was at an institution right across the street and had no idea that this industry even existed. So when I stumbled across VC and began learning about it, I just saw the opportunity for artists, athletes and entertainers to be involved and was curious as to why more people that look like us aren't represented in those spaces. So that's when you know, my research and dedication to being in this position really started. And then from there, you know, bringing that idea and really helped become what we're building today with quality Ventures has been amazing.  Dan Runcie 04:26 So talk to me about that piece about bringing this idea together. So was it you seeing the opportunity and seeing how much of a disconnect there was and then going into the team at QC to be like, hey, there's something big here and we have talent here that could be just as influential.  Dazayah Walker 04:42 Yes. So it was a moment where I had to really think about what legacy do I want to have, what value do I want to add, and being in this position, you know, I built relationships with, you know, our entire team. So I was somebody that, you know, they trusted and when I, you know, have something to say they were listening, and you know, they embraced any idea or anything that I had. So by, you know, telling them and showing them, you know, the opportunity that exists for us in this space, it was well-received. And now here we are deploying capital, making investments. And my goal is really for us to have that same little level of influence and impact that we have in music in the venture capital space, as well. So having that same strong presence and footprint in that industry, too. Dan Runcie 05:29 So what does that thesis look like? What does that investment goal look like for QC specifically, because I'm sure it's more than just the financial aspect? There's the pitch and how it can help intersect and how the music itself and everything you're doing on the media and entertainment side can help with the venture opportunity too? Dazayah Walker 05:48 Absolutely, so our biggest thing is adding value, adding strategic value. So for us being in a unique position of being that entity that defines culture and creates culture, I feel like we're uniquely positioned to leverage our artists and our athletes to really help grow these companies that we see as potential winners. Dan Runcie 06:11 And are there ever any specific moments where folks are reaching out? And there's, of course, the interest in having QC on the cap table, but then people reaching out about specific artists, whether it's like, oh, well, we want to have City Girls on here, specifically, or we want to be able to have a Lil Baby on here? How has it been with that piece of advice, I'm sure that could be an interesting discussion, especially from your landscape with all of that.  Dazayah Walker 06:35 So that happens a lot as well. And it all boils down to seeing if the artist even aligns with what you're building. Because when you're working with early stage, or pre-seed stage companies, that may be the very first version of whatever they're building, there's so many more iterations yet to happen. And as the entity continues to grow, and transform, the artists that they thought may be ideal for what they're building as a representation may not be as they continue to, you know, redefine what it is that they're building. So yes, you know, we get opportunities all the time for our artists, which was another reason why, like the opportunity to bridge the gap and intersect music and technology was so evident and clear to me, you know, to pursue and to do, because those opportunities and those deals are always flowing. But really being in a position being someone that knows how to evaluate those opportunities, and educate, you know, the artist, or the athlete or whoever may be to let them know, like, this is why this is a good, you know, opportunity or something to look at and this is why it isn't. Dan Runcie 07:41 I also imagine that there's likely people that may be reaching out because they may want just the exposure that may come right, they may be like, “Oh, well, if y'all invest can Lil Baby, give us a shout out for the product on some song. And I could see there being you know, some pushback on that, because obviously, you all would see the opportunity as being greater than that.” But how was that piece of it been? Because I know, I've heard similar from folks in the entertainment space when they're looking to have not just celebrities, but artists specifically on the cap table. Dazayah Walker 08:13 Well, personally, I don't think a founder having that mindset is necessarily wrong because in the VC ecosystem now, capital isn't an issue. So getting the money having people to, you know, write a check for you isn't the hard part. It’s actually once you get that money, how can you use that, you know, relationship that you now have to help build your company or grow whatever it is that you're building. So I feel like a founder having that perspective isn't necessarily a bad thing, because you want to have partners that can help you grow your company and add value in different ways. So if there is an opportunity for an artist, if it's something that they really love, you know, to be an ambassador for it, and to push it. Dan Runcie 08:58 So when you're evaluating startups, and when you're evaluating artists, or not artists, founders, specifically, what are you looking for, like, what is your criteria set? And what are those things whether it's tangible or intangible that you're looking for that clears that over the hurdle to be like, Yes, this is what we want to invest in? Dazayah Walker 09:16 So I would break it down into three things. The first thing I would say, what is the problem that you're trying to solve? Is this a problem that is unique to you and from like, or where you're from? Or is this a problem that is affecting a wide market of people? So first, understanding the problem, and if the solution that they're attempting to build is a solution for the greater good? The second thing is really understanding their team, like, who do you have helping you build this? What people do need a position to help you build it? And like how much traction Have you gotten so far. And the first, and I think the most important thing is the founder, when you're working with companies that are likely pre-revenue, maybe they have a very, very early version of their product, you're placing a bet on the founder. So knowing the type of person to look for, or the type of characteristics to look for in a founder, I think are very important. Somebody that is determined, somebody that is all in like willing to make the investment themselves because how do you expect me or someone to make an investment when you haven't even, you know, fully invested yourself in this in this idea? So I will say those are the top three things that I look at when I meet with founders and new companies. Dan Runcie 10:33 That makes sense. And then in terms of the industries themselves, is there any type of sector that you're particularly looking for, or any other type of industry that you feel is most aligned with what QC or Quality Ventures is after? Dazayah Walker 10:49 Yeah, so as a company, Quality Ventures isn't looking in specific industries and verticals. I know a lot of people think since you know, we have Quality Control Music, we're looking strictly at music-based companies and startups. And that's not necessarily true. Like I said, our whole thesis is really about us being in a position to add value. But for me, specifically, I really like looking at fintech companies, I think that Fintech is the next market to really boom so paying attention to the trends, paying attention to what people are saying, paying attention to what problems are they need to be solved. So for me personally, the industry of interest to me is fintech. Dan Runcie 11:28 And what is it about fintech specifically that sticks out to you or interest you? Dazayah Walker 11:32 I like it because I think it's time for a change as far as how money is viewed, how money is moved. Like I know, you probably have seen how crypto, everybody's talking about crypto, and preparation for the metaverse, like, all of those things are happening strategically. And by being aware of what's happening in fintech, you know how the money is moving what the future of money and finances look like. So that you can kind of put yourself in position to not only be educated about it but know how to make your next move when it comes to what the future looks like. Dan Runcie 12:05 Right? That makes sense. And I think especially when you look more broadly at the definition of FinTech, and you look at companies like Coinbase, and you look at some of the partnerships that they've had with organizations like the NBA, or even the United Masters, there's clearly an alignment where even if it isn't in the quote-unquote, entertainment landscape, this touches so much. So that's why I think you see so many artists and companies in this space that want to tap into all these areas, even if they're not necessarily what you may think is in that industry.  Dazayah Walker 12:38 Exactly.  Dan Runcie 12:39 And with that, I mean, for you, I know that another partnership that QC has, at least on the investment side, from what I've seen is in Techstars Music, and I saw that you're a mentor there and that QC more broadly as a partner. So how has that experience been? Dazayah Walker 12:56 It's been amazing. Just the Techstars music team in general have been a great like resource for us. So when the program, when we joined the program last year, we kind of were thrown in when things were already in motion, like they were already preparing for demo day, the companies in the cohort were already selected. But now I was able to be a part of the process of you know, picking the companies for the new cohort, being a part of like all the member meetings and the mentor meetings. So with me still being in a very early part of my career, I'm always looking for opportunities to learn and experience new things. And Techstars has been an amazing teacher for me. Just seeing things from that perspective, working with an accelerator, like working with founders and seeing them in that perspective has definitely helped me I feel like become a better venture capitalist, just seeing things from different angles and different perspectives. Because honestly, once I made the decision to transition into venture capital, I was a little discouraged because I am entering it through a very unconventional background. So any opportunity that I have to learn and observe and ask questions, it's been amazing, because it's been it's been a rough journey for me to be able to confidently say, this is what I'm doing. I know that I'm uniquely qualified to do that thing, and, you know, moving like that. So it's been a journey, Dan, I tell you, Dan Runcie 14:22 I could imagine I mean, there are not many people that look like you that are doing this type of work. And when you compound that with what people already may assume is standard for what they expect for people working at, the type of company you work at that just compounds it further. I mean, what are some of the things that you had done early on to try to, you know, either break through that or try to navigate that the best, and I could only imagine how tough that could be at times. Dazayah Walker 14:50 Yeah, I would definitely say reaching out to people asking questions, really being a sponge, absorbing as much information and knowledge as I can. Because making this pivot into an entire new industry is scary, because like, I built my network in my name and music. And now, I feel like making a career shift almost as still such an early point in my career was very, very scary. But some of those same like tactics and things that I did to be successful or reach the level of success that I had in music, I applied those same principles to me, you know, trying to achieve a level of success in venture capital. So really finding mentors and finding a community to learn from to be supported by and to be supportive of, and just taking things day by day. And knowing that every day is an opportunity to learn something new, and, you know, not taking opportunity for granted because I know I'm in a very unique and special position. And I'm grateful for the position that I'm in. So really showing people why I, you know, I'm deserving of the role that I've been placed in. Dan Runcie 16:04 Definitely. And I also think, too, whether it's programs like HBCU, VC, and obviously, you representing that being an alum from HBCU them recognizing that this is a pipeline that not only is a challenge, but how can they help bridge that gap? And, you know, are there any specific organizations, whether it's like that or others that have been helpful for you as you've gone along this path? Dazayah Walker 16:26 Yeah, so definitely HBCU BC, considering I was a fellow, that was an amazing program with amazing teachers, and I've really been able to, like tap into that community, which has been amazing. Another community that I'm really grateful for is Black VC and the Black Venture Capital Consortium, both of those organizations have been super supportive and welcoming of me. And it's things like that, that are very important for not even just me being a young black woman, but you know, being a person of color trying to enter another space that is male-dominated, white-male-dominated. So just having that comfort of knowing that there are people that support you and want to uplift you and see you do amazing things. Dan Runcie 17:11 Yeah, definitely. I could see that for sure. I could see that. Well. Let's circle back quick. I do want to talk about some of the public investments that you've made. I know that Riff was one of them, that you all were in, was that one of them? Riff, yes. Okay. So what was the process like for that investment? What was it that attracted you about that company? Dazayah Walker 17:31 Well, Riff isn't one that I necessarily, like found from the beginning and worked all the way to the point where we cut the check. But Riff has been an amazing company in our portfolio, I'm super excited for what they're building, just seeing them being disruptive and combining elements that we as consumers love, I'm really excited for the journey of Riff and being able to be a great partner to them, and just seeing them grow. And you know, being along that journey in that ride with them, but they're definitely building something amazing. And I'm excited for, you know, the masses to really, you know, tap into it, learn about it, and really get engaged with it. Dan Runcie 18:10 Yeah, I can see that. Are there any that are public that you've worked on that you can talk more about? Dazayah Walker 18:17 Yeah, so one of my favorite companies in our portfolio, which is actually one of the companies from the previous class of Techstars. It's called Faith. And this is one that I really, really loved. Because not only did our relate to like the platform, just to give you a little bit of background Faith is an app for fans. It allows fans to come together and really live within their fandom. And with me being a past fangirl, I immediately fell in love with what she was building. And the founder, she's a black woman, she's a solopreneur, which is a challenge in itself. So just seeing what she's built so far, the amount of traction that she's received, and just how far she has come has been super inspirational for me, you know, being involved, even in like the due diligence and saying, I think this is a great company, I think this is one that we really should pay attention to, to the point of us actually deploying capital to that company. That was super cool, and really amazing. And that's another company in our portfolio that I'm super excited about. And I feel like not only will my generation, like, enjoy the app, but the generation underneath me will as well, so… Dan Runcie 19:23 Nice. That makes sense. Yeah. And I feel with apps like that in platforms. I mean, not only do you have the direct connection, but I'm sure you being able to have the connection to it. I mean, these are the type of things obviously it's still early stage, you know, but gets marked up you continue to have that influence over it and you never know where that could take you. I feel like that's kind of the exciting thing, especially for the people I talk to you that are that start their careers in VC, as opposed to the other way around the, you know, the folks that may have done something on the product side and then go into vc. Dazayah Walker 19:56 Yeah, but my goal overall, really is to, you know, find my groove in this and really, you know, find success for myself and I define success within this space is being able to invest in companies, have exits, and you know, have a strong portfolio, so that I can get to the point where I'm able to educate and inform, because I feel like, part of the reason why a lot of artists, athletes, and entertainers, which is, you know, the people that I'm used to working with and being around, which is why I really strongly urge them to get into this space, and why I feel like I'm in the position, and the person to really do that work, is because they don't know, like, there's that kind of barrier. Like they may see things on social media of other artists that have invested in Gods, you know, there's money back, but really having someone there to educate them and be that bridge and that conduit from, you know, them being in the position and the level of influence, and you know, the reach that they have, and showing them and being that person to bring deals to them to help them leverage that so that not only are they able to, you know, be represented in this space, but build generational wealth for them and their families. Like that's the bigger picture. And that's the goal for me. And that's the work that I really want to do and look forward to doing. So finding success here and having a strong, like track record and proven portfolio, and then being able to use that as a way to show people you can do this too. And this is how, let me show you how, let me be that person to help you understand and be a part of it. Dan Runcie 21:32 Yeah, that's powerful. Because I feel like especially for you or you're in your position now. There's a lot of people that I'm sure look at you being like, oh, Dazayah, how can we get in that? Like, how do you were able to, you know, connect those dots. And then you obviously, you know, I'm sure you feel like you're deep into yourself, you're learning as you're continuing to grow. But you know that in the near future, you will be able to have enough. And that can look like a number of things, whether that's a course or some other type of platform to just share and disseminate this information. Because not only is it important for people to hear it, it's important for people to hear it from people who you know, look like you they if you want to inspire, you know, especially if there's black women across the country across the world, I want to hear it, the more folks that could share their experience, the better that is. Dazayah Walker 22:16 Absolutely, I agree 100%. Like, the more you know, the better position that you can put yourself in. And I just think it's a lack of knowledge, people just not knowing, like, what these things mean, how to get in on deals, how much to invest, like, there's so many layers to it. And I feel like if people were a bit more comfortable, they'd be more open and investing their money in other ways than the traditional stocks and bonds or, you know, how people see fit to save their money or invest their money, I should say.  Dan Runcie 22:47 Yeah, especially now I feel like we're seeing things like whether it's the accredited investor rule or other things just continuing to be challenged, we're gonna see more and more people investing the definition of an investor and who can get involved with things. As those barriers continue to lower, the options increase. And when that happens, it just provides more space for education. So yeah, you're definitely on the right track with all that stuff has ever said. 100% Dazayah Walker 23:13 Thank you. That really means a lot. Thank you. Dan Runcie 23:16 Yeah, well, um, I know that, you know, we've covered a lot in this. But before we let you go, I do want to get a quick take from you on what are you most excited for? What's coming through the QC portfolio for the rest of 2022? And I guess portfolio, that'd be more on the artists side. Specifically, what are you excited for on that front.  Dazayah Walker 23:36 I'm just excited for the continued growth of Quality Control as an empire. It hasn't even been 10 years that QC has been in existence. And for us to have made so much leeway, create so much history have so much impact within that 10-year window. I'm excited to see what the next five years look like for us. But even just in the next year, in the next 12 months, I'm excited to see the continued growth and effort of our team, like our team has grown dramatically. So if we were able to do and accomplish so much with such a small team, I'm excited to see what the next 12 months look like for our expansion and our growth and just everything to come and everything that we're building, publicly and silently. I'm just grateful for the position that I'm in and be able to be a part of that and even say those things. So the next year it's going to look like a lot of wins continued success and growth and expansion for all of us. Dan Runcie 24:38 That's exciting. I feel like the past decade for QC has been incredible. I think it's so tough for indie labels to be able to have that type of run in the fact that they have says a lot. So I'm excited. I mean, as a fan of all of this, I'm excited to see what happened. But yeah, before we let you go, is there anything else you want to plug or let the Trapital audience know about? Dazayah Walker 25:00 I should say this is great, Dan, I absolutely love what you're doing what you're building, you're spreading a message that needs to be heard by so many. And you're not only inspiring me, but you're inspiring people that you may not even know that you're touching. So keep doing the work that you're doing. This was awesome. Thank you so much. Dan Runcie 25:19 Thank you. I appreciate that. Appreciate that. We'll do. Thanks, Dazayah. Dazayah Walker 25:23 All right. Thank you, Dan. Dan Runcie 25:28  If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:00:00 -0000 How Quality Control Music Invests in Startups full 116 Dan Runcie Dazayah’s path to becoming a Venture Capitalist Dazayah Walker is the Head of Investments at Quality Control Music, the label behind today’s most trendsetting artists like Lil Baby and Migos, Dazayah. She maintains QC’s investment portfolio, particularly within the startup space, which spans well beyond just music and entertainment. Being a 23-year-old venture capitalist is difficult as is. Now tack on being female and black? “It’s been a journey”, as Dazayah Walker shares with us in this episode of the Trapital podcast. Dazayah’s path to becoming a Venture Capitalist is as unorthodox as you’ll find in the venture capital world, but she’s stuck to the same principles that got her that opportunity to begin with — seeking out mentors, surrounding herself with a supportive community, and taking the learning process day-by-day. Before overseeing QC’s investments, Dazayah worked on the music side for the label. She began as an intern for QC, and worked her way through the ranks at the same time QC was taking the music industry by storm.  Not only is Dazayah breaking down doors, but she’s also trying to leave them open for future aspiring VC’s with similar unconventional backgrounds. As Dazayah continues to learn the ins and outs of venture capital, she plans on creating initiatives to educate others about the world she operates in. To hear Dazayah’s future ambitions, plus everything else we covered in the show, reference the video chapters below:  [0:00] Dazayah’s goals with her role [2:13] Dazayah’s Transition Into Venture Capital [5:29] What Is QC’s Investment Thesis?  [6:35] The Pros And Cons Of Involving QC Artists Into Investments [9:16] What Does Dazayah Look For In A Company Before Investing?  [10:49] QC Investing Beyond Just Music and Entertainment  [10:45] Dazayah’s particular interest in Fintech [12:56] QC’s and Dazayah’s Involvement With Techstars [14:48] The Challenge Dazayah Faced Breaking Into The VC World [16:04] What Programs Have Helped Dazayah Adjust To The VC World?  [17:40] What Was Behind QC’s Investment Into Riff?  [18:50] QC’s Investment Portfolio Explained  [20:00] “You Can Do This Too And This Is How” [23:30] Music-Wise, What Is Dazayah Most Excited About QC In Near Future? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Dazayah Walker, @dazayah       Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands ----------- Dazayah Walker 00:00 Finding success here and having a strong track record and proven portfolio and then be able to use that as a way to show people you can do this too, and this is how, let me show you how, let me be that person to help you understand and be a part of it. Dan Runcie 00:23 Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Dazayah Walker, Head of Investments and the Operations Manager at Quality Control Music. This is an exciting role to have at a time like this. QC has been on a run the past few years and has really shaped what hip hop is sounded like, from artists like Migos, to City Girls, to Lil Baby, and then on the other side of this hip hop investing activity is growing faster than ever, and we're seeing more and more artists getting ICAP tables, getting involved with deals. So it's a really exciting time to have a role like this. I talked with Dazayah about what it's been like from her perspective, and representing and getting roles not just for QC as a firm, but for the artists that they represent, and how she has navigated the record label growing as fast as it has the past few years to venture capital landscape and how she's been able to navigate that and a whole lot more. Had a great conversation with her. Hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Dazayah Walker. All right, we got Dazayah Walker here today, who is the Head of Investments at Quality Control Music. Dazayah, welcome to the pod.  Dazayah Walker 01:42 Hello, I'm so happy to be here. Super excited. Let's do this.  Dan Runcie 01:46 Yeah, so one of the things that stuck out to me about you and your career, you had started as an intern at QC, and you've risen up the ranks there as the label as not just a record label, but as an entertainment company. And now with a corporate venture arm or brollies just continue to grow and expand.  Dazayah Walker 02:05 Yes.  Dan Runcie 02:06 Walk me through the steps. What was it like from when you started to where it is now, just with how fast things have been growing there?  Dazayah Walker 02:13 Yeah, it's been a great journey and experience for me, with this being my first job. There's been a lot of learning curves with that in itself. But it was definitely a privilege and a great opportunity to be able to see the growth of QC, because we've expanded in so many different ways since I started as an intern, and being able to be a part of that, witness that, learn from that I couldn't be in a better position.  Dan Runcie 02:36 And is there anything specific with the role that you have now that had drawn you to it or something specifically because I know you had started a bit more focused on operations? And then now we're obviously seeing much more on the investment side. But was there something about that opportunity that pulled you in?  Dazayah Walker 02:52 Yes, so getting to this side was definitely a path of, I would say divine ordering because me entering the opportunity at QC. Starting as an intern, I thought I just wanted to do music, work my way up to being a music industry executive. But as I became more in the groove, and learning more of the things that I like, things that I don't like, I really had to find my place. And when I discovered what venture capital was, because when I was at Spelman, I was an economics major. So I kind of have like, I've always been surrounded by that when I was in school, just the finance, track and everything like that. But me venturing into music was me following my passion or what I thought was my passion at that time. So when I discovered what venture capital was, it was actually kind of crazy to me that I hadn't learned about it when I was in school, considering the impact that Morehouse, our brother institution has, as far as their representation of black men in venture capital. It was just crazy to me that I was at an institution right across the street and had no idea that this industry even existed. So when I stumbled across VC and began learning about it, I just saw the opportunity for artists, athletes and entertainers to be involved and was curious as to why more people that look like us aren't represented in those spaces. So that's when you know, my research and dedication to being in this position really started. And then from there, you know, bringing that idea and really helped become what we're building today with quality Ventures has been amazing.  Dan Runcie 04:26 So talk to me about that piece about bringing this idea together. So was it you seeing the opportunity and seeing how much of a disconnect there was and then going into the team at QC to be like, hey, there's something big here and we have talent here that could be just as influential.  Dazayah Walker 04:42 Yes. So it was a moment where I had to really think about what legacy do I want to have, what value do I want to add, and being in this position, you know, I built relationships with, you know, our entire team. So I was somebody that, you know, they trusted and when I, you know, have something to say they were listening, and you know, they embraced any idea or anything that I had. So by, you know, telling them and showing them, you know, the opportunity that exists for us in this space, it was well-received. And now here we are deploying capital, making investments. And my goal is really for us to have that same little level of influence and impact that we have in music in the venture capital space, as well. So having that same strong presence and footprint in that industry, too. Dan Runcie 05:29 So what does that thesis look like? What does that investment goal look like for QC specifically, because I'm sure it's more than just the financial aspect? There's the pitch and how it can help intersect and how the music itself and everything you're doing on the media and entertainment side can help with the venture opportunity too? Dazayah Walker 05:48 Absolutely, so our biggest thing is adding value, adding strategic value. So for us being in a unique position of being that entity that defines culture and creates culture, I feel like we're uniquely positioned to leverage our artists and our athletes to really help grow these companies that we see as potential winners. Dan Runcie 06:11 And are there ever any specific moments where folks are reaching out? And there's, of course, the interest in having QC on the cap table, but then people reaching out about specific artists, whether it's like, oh, well, we want to have City Girls on here, specifically, or we want to be able to have a Lil Baby on here? How has it been with that piece of advice, I'm sure that could be an interesting discussion, especially from your landscape with all of that.  Dazayah Walker 06:35 So that happens a lot as well. And it all boils down to seeing if the artist even aligns with what you're building. Because when you're working with early stage, or pre-seed stage companies, that may be the very first version of whatever they're building, there's so many more iterations yet to happen. And as the entity continues to grow, and transform, the artists that they thought may be ideal for what they're building as a representation may not be as they continue to, you know, redefine what it is that they're building. So yes, you know, we get opportunities all the time for our artists, which was another reason why, like the opportunity to bridge the gap and intersect music and technology was so evident and clear to me, you know, to pursue and to do, because those opportunities and those deals are always flowing. But really being in a position being someone that knows how to evaluate those opportunities, and educate, you know, the artist, or the athlete or whoever may be to let them know, like, this is why this is a good, you know, opportunity or something to look at and this is why it isn't. Dan Runcie 07:41 I also imagine that there's likely people that may be reaching out because they may want just the exposure that may come right, they may be like, “Oh, well, if y'all invest can Lil Baby, give us a shout out for the product on some song. And I could see there being you know, some pushback on that, because obviously, you all would see the opportunity as being greater than that.” But how was that piece of it been? Because I know, I've heard similar from folks in the entertainment space when they're looking to have not just celebrities, but artists specifically on the cap table. Dazayah Walker 08:13 Well, personally, I don't think a founder having that mindset is necessarily wrong because in the VC ecosystem now, capital isn't an issue. So getting the money having people to, you know, write a check for you isn't the hard part. It’s actually once you get that money, how can you use that, you know, relationship that you now have to help build your company or grow whatever it is that you're building. So I feel like a founder having that perspective isn't necessarily a bad thing, because you want to have partners that can help you grow your company and add value in different ways. So if there is an opportunity for an artist, if it's something that they really love, you know, to be an ambassador for it, and to push it. Dan Runcie 08:58 So when you're evaluating startups, and when you're evaluating artists, or not artists, founders, specifically, what are you looking for, like, what is your criteria set? And what are those things whether it's tangible or intangible that you're looking for that clears that over the hurdle to be like, Yes, this is what we want to invest in? Dazayah Walker 09:16 So I would break it down into three things. The first thing I would say, what is the problem that you're trying to solve? Is this a problem that is unique to you and from like, or where you're from? Or is this a problem that is affecting a wide market of people? So first, understanding the problem, and if the solution that they're attempting to build is a solution for the greater good? The second thing is really understanding their team, like, who do you have helping you build this? What people do need a position to help you build it? And like how much traction Have you gotten so far. And the first, and I think the most important thing is the founder, when you're working with companies that are likely pre-revenue, maybe they have a very, very early version of their product, you're placing a bet on the founder. So knowing the type of person to look for, or the type of characteristics to look for in a founder, I think are very important. Somebody that is determined, somebody that is all in like willing to make the investment themselves because how do you expect me or someone to make an investment when you haven't even, you know, fully invested yourself in this in this idea? So I will say those are the top three things that I look at when I meet with founders and new companies. Dan Runcie 10:33 That makes sense. And then in terms of the industries themselves, is there any type of sector that you're particularly looking for, or any other type of industry that you feel is most aligned with what QC or Quality Ventures is after? Dazayah Walker 10:49 Yeah, so as a company, Quality Ventures isn't looking in specific industries and verticals. I know a lot of people think since you know, we have Quality Control Music, we're looking strictly at music-based companies and startups. And that's not necessarily true. Like I said, our whole thesis is really about us being in a position to add value. But for me, specifically, I really like looking at fintech companies, I think that Fintech is the next market to really boom so paying attention to the trends, paying attention to what people are saying, paying attention to what problems are they need to be solved. So for me personally, the industry of interest to me is fintech. Dan Runcie 11:28 And what is it about fintech specifically that sticks out to you or interest you? Dazayah Walker 11:32 I like it because I think it's time for a change as far as how money is viewed, how money is moved. Like I know, you probably have seen how crypto, everybody's talking about crypto, and preparation for the metaverse, like, all of those things are happening strategically. And by being aware of what's happening in fintech, you know how the money is moving what the future of money and finances look like. So that you can kind of put yourself in position to not only be educated about it but know how to make your next move when it comes to what the future looks like. Dan Runcie 12:05 Right? That makes sense. And I think especially when you look more broadly at the definition of FinTech, and you look at companies like Coinbase, and you look at some of the partnerships that they've had with organizations like the NBA, or even the United Masters, there's clearly an alignment where even if it isn't in the quote-unquote, entertainment landscape, this touches so much. So that's why I think you see so many artists and companies in this space that want to tap into all these areas, even if they're not necessarily what you may think is in that industry.  Dazayah Walker 12:38 Exactly.  Dan Runcie 12:39 And with that, I mean, for you, I know that another partnership that QC has, at least on the investment side, from what I've seen is in Techstars Music, and I saw that you're a mentor there and that QC more broadly as a partner. So how has that experience been? Dazayah Walker 12:56 It's been amazing. Just the Techstars music team in general have been a great like resource for us. So when the program, when we joined the program last year, we kind of were thrown in when things were already in motion, like they were already preparing for demo day, the companies in the cohort were already selected. But now I was able to be a part of the process of you know, picking the companies for the new cohort, being a part of like all the member meetings and the mentor meetings. So with me still being in a very early part of my career, I'm always looking for opportunities to learn and experience new things. And Techstars has been an amazing teacher for me. Just seeing things from that perspective, working with an accelerator, like working with founders and seeing them in that perspective has definitely helped me I feel like become a better venture capitalist, just seeing things from different angles and different perspectives. Because honestly, once I made the decision to transition into venture capital, I was a little discouraged because I am entering it through a very unconventional background. So any opportunity that I have to learn and observe and ask questions, it's been amazing, because it's been it's been a rough journey for me to be able to confidently say, this is what I'm doing. I know that I'm uniquely qualified to do that thing, and, you know, moving like that. So it's been a journey, Dan, I tell you, Dan Runcie 14:22 I could imagine I mean, there are not many people that look like you that are doing this type of work. And when you compound that with what people already may assume is standard for what they expect for people working at, the type of company you work at that just compounds it further. I mean, what are some of the things that you had done early on to try to, you know, either break through that or try to navigate that the best, and I could only imagine how tough that could be at times. Dazayah Walker 14:50 Yeah, I would definitely say reaching out to people asking questions, really being a sponge, absorbing as much information and knowledge as I can. Because making this pivot into an entire new industry is scary, because like, I built my network in my name and music. And now, I feel like making a career shift almost as still such an early point in my career was very, very scary. But some of those same like tactics and things that I did to be successful or reach the level of success that I had in music, I applied those same principles to me, you know, trying to achieve a level of success in venture capital. So really finding mentors and finding a community to learn from to be supported by and to be supportive of, and just taking things day by day. And knowing that every day is an opportunity to learn something new, and, you know, not taking opportunity for granted because I know I'm in a very unique and special position. And I'm grateful for the position that I'm in. So really showing people why I, you know, I'm deserving of the role that I've been placed in. Dan Runcie 16:04 Definitely. And I also think, too, whether it's programs like HBCU, VC, and obviously, you representing that being an alum from HBCU them recognizing that this is a pipeline that not only is a challenge, but how can they help bridge that gap? And, you know, are there any specific organizations, whether it's like that or others that have been helpful for you as you've gone along this path? Dazayah Walker 16:26 Yeah, so definitely HBCU BC, considering I was a fellow, that was an amazing program with amazing teachers, and I've really been able to, like tap into that community, which has been amazing. Another community that I'm really grateful for is Black VC and the Black Venture Capital Consortium, both of those organizations have been super supportive and welcoming of me. And it's things like that, that are very important for not even just me being a young black woman, but you know, being a person of color trying to enter another space that is male-dominated, white-male-dominated. So just having that comfort of knowing that there are people that support you and want to uplift you and see you do amazing things. Dan Runcie 17:11 Yeah, definitely. I could see that for sure. I could see that. Well. Let's circle back quick. I do want to talk about some of the public investments that you've made. I know that Riff was one of them, that you all were in, was that one of them? Riff, yes. Okay. So what was the process like for that investment? What was it that attracted you about that company? Dazayah Walker 17:31 Well, Riff isn't one that I necessarily, like found from the beginning and worked all the way to the point where we cut the check. But Riff has been an amazing company in our portfolio, I'm super excited for what they're building, just seeing them being disruptive and combining elements that we as consumers love, I'm really excited for the journey of Riff and being able to be a great partner to them, and just seeing them grow. And you know, being along that journey in that ride with them, but they're definitely building something amazing. And I'm excited for, you know, the masses to really, you know, tap into it, learn about it, and really get engaged with it. Dan Runcie 18:10 Yeah, I can see that. Are there any that are public that you've worked on that you can talk more about? Dazayah Walker 18:17 Yeah, so one of my favorite companies in our portfolio, which is actually one of the companies from the previous class of Techstars. It's called Faith. And this is one that I really, really loved. Because not only did our relate to like the platform, just to give you a little bit of background Faith is an app for fans. It allows fans to come together and really live within their fandom. And with me being a past fangirl, I immediately fell in love with what she was building. And the founder, she's a black woman, she's a solopreneur, which is a challenge in itself. So just seeing what she's built so far, the amount of traction that she's received, and just how far she has come has been super inspirational for me, you know, being involved, even in like the due diligence and saying, I think this is a great company, I think this is one that we really should pay attention to, to the point of us actually deploying capital to that company. That was super cool, and really amazing. And that's another company in our portfolio that I'm super excited about. And I feel like not only will my generation, like, enjoy the app, but the generation underneath me will as well, so… Dan Runcie 19:23 Nice. That makes sense. Yeah. And I feel with apps like that in platforms. I mean, not only do you have the direct connection, but I'm sure you being able to have the connection to it. I mean, these are the type of things obviously it's still early stage, you know, but gets marked up you continue to have that influence over it and you never know where that could take you. I feel like that's kind of the exciting thing, especially for the people I talk to you that are that start their careers in VC, as opposed to the other way around the, you know, the folks that may have done something on the product side and then go into vc. Dazayah Walker 19:56 Yeah, but my goal overall, really is to, you know, find my groove in this and really, you know, find success for myself and I define success within this space is being able to invest in companies, have exits, and you know, have a strong portfolio, so that I can get to the point where I'm able to educate and inform, because I feel like, part of the reason why a lot of artists, athletes, and entertainers, which is, you know, the people that I'm used to working with and being around, which is why I really strongly urge them to get into this space, and why I feel like I'm in the position, and the person to really do that work, is because they don't know, like, there's that kind of barrier. Like they may see things on social media of other artists that have invested in Gods, you know, there's money back, but really having someone there to educate them and be that bridge and that conduit from, you know, them being in the position and the level of influence, and you know, the reach that they have, and showing them and being that person to bring deals to them to help them leverage that so that not only are they able to, you know, be represented in this space, but build generational wealth for them and their families. Like that's the bigger picture. And that's the goal for me. And that's the work that I really want to do and look forward to doing. So finding success here and having a strong, like track record and proven portfolio, and then being able to use that as a way to show people you can do this too. And this is how, let me show you how, let me be that person to help you understand and be a part of it. Dan Runcie 21:32 Yeah, that's powerful. Because I feel like especially for you or you're in your position now. There's a lot of people that I'm sure look at you being like, oh, Dazayah, how can we get in that? Like, how do you were able to, you know, connect those dots. And then you obviously, you know, I'm sure you feel like you're deep into yourself, you're learning as you're continuing to grow. But you know that in the near future, you will be able to have enough. And that can look like a number of things, whether that's a course or some other type of platform to just share and disseminate this information. Because not only is it important for people to hear it, it's important for people to hear it from people who you know, look like you they if you want to inspire, you know, especially if there's black women across the country across the world, I want to hear it, the more folks that could share their experience, the better that is. Dazayah Walker 22:16 Absolutely, I agree 100%. Like, the more you know, the better position that you can put yourself in. And I just think it's a lack of knowledge, people just not knowing, like, what these things mean, how to get in on deals, how much to invest, like, there's so many layers to it. And I feel like if people were a bit more comfortable, they'd be more open and investing their money in other ways than the traditional stocks and bonds or, you know, how people see fit to save their money or invest their money, I should say.  Dan Runcie 22:47 Yeah, especially now I feel like we're seeing things like whether it's the accredited investor rule or other things just continuing to be challenged, we're gonna see more and more people investing the definition of an investor and who can get involved with things. As those barriers continue to lower, the options increase. And when that happens, it just provides more space for education. So yeah, you're definitely on the right track with all that stuff has ever said. 100% Dazayah Walker 23:13 Thank you. That really means a lot. Thank you. Dan Runcie 23:16 Yeah, well, um, I know that, you know, we've covered a lot in this. But before we let you go, I do want to get a quick take from you on what are you most excited for? What's coming through the QC portfolio for the rest of 2022? And I guess portfolio, that'd be more on the artists side. Specifically, what are you excited for on that front.  Dazayah Walker 23:36 I'm just excited for the continued growth of Quality Control as an empire. It hasn't even been 10 years that QC has been in existence. And for us to have made so much leeway, create so much history have so much impact within that 10-year window. I'm excited to see what the next five years look like for us. But even just in the next year, in the next 12 months, I'm excited to see the continued growth and effort of our team, like our team has grown dramatically. So if we were able to do and accomplish so much with such a small team, I'm excited to see what the next 12 months look like for our expansion and our growth and just everything to come and everything that we're building, publicly and silently. I'm just grateful for the position that I'm in and be able to be a part of that and even say those things. So the next year it's going to look like a lot of wins continued success and growth and expansion for all of us. Dan Runcie 24:38 That's exciting. I feel like the past decade for QC has been incredible. I think it's so tough for indie labels to be able to have that type of run in the fact that they have says a lot. So I'm excited. I mean, as a fan of all of this, I'm excited to see what happened. But yeah, before we let you go, is there anything else you want to plug or let the Trapital audience know about? Dazayah Walker 25:00 I should say this is great, Dan, I absolutely love what you're doing what you're building, you're spreading a message that needs to be heard by so many. And you're not only inspiring me, but you're inspiring people that you may not even know that you're touching. So keep doing the work that you're doing. This was awesome. Thank you so much. Dan Runcie 25:19 Thank you. I appreciate that. Appreciate that. We'll do. Thanks, Dazayah. Dazayah Walker 25:23 All right. Thank you, Dan. Dan Runcie 25:28  If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Dazayah Walker is the Head of Investments at Quality Control Music, the label behind today’s most trendsetting artists like Lil Baby and Migos, Dazayah. She maintains QC’s investment portfolio, particularly within the startup space, which spans well beyond just music and entertainment. Being a 23-year-old venture capitalist is difficult as is. Now tack on being female and black? “It’s been a journey”, as Dazayah Walker shares with us in this episode of the Trapital podcast.


Dazayah’s path to becoming a Venture Capitalist is as unorthodox as you’ll find in the venture capital world, but she’s stuck to the same principles that got her that opportunity to begin with — seeking out mentors, surrounding herself with a supportive community, and taking the learning process day-by-day. Before overseeing QC’s investments, Dazayah worked on the music side for the label. She began as an intern for QC, and worked her way through the ranks at the same time QC was taking the music industry by storm. 


Not only is Dazayah breaking down doors, but she’s also trying to leave them open for future aspiring VC’s with similar unconventional backgrounds. As Dazayah continues to learn the ins and outs of venture capital, she plans on creating initiatives to educate others about the world she operates in. To hear Dazayah’s future ambitions, plus everything else we covered in the show, reference the video chapters below: 


[0:00] Dazayah’s goals with her role

[2:13] Dazayah’s Transition Into Venture Capital

[5:29] What Is QC’s Investment Thesis? 

[6:35] The Pros And Cons Of Involving QC Artists Into Investments

[9:16] What Does Dazayah Look For In A Company Before Investing? 

[10:49] QC Investing Beyond Just Music and Entertainment 

[10:45] Dazayah’s particular interest in Fintech

[12:56] QC’s and Dazayah’s Involvement With Techstars

[14:48] The Challenge Dazayah Faced Breaking Into The VC World

[16:04] What Programs Have Helped Dazayah Adjust To The VC World? 

[17:40] What Was Behind QC’s Investment Into Riff? 

[18:50] QC’s Investment Portfolio Explained 

[20:00] “You Can Do This Too And This Is How”

[23:30] Music-Wise, What Is Dazayah Most Excited About QC In Near Future?



Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Dazayah Walker, @dazayah

 

 

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 



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Dazayah Walker 00:00

Finding success here and having a strong track record and proven portfolio and then be able to use that as a way to show people you can do this too, and this is how, let me show you how, let me be that person to help you understand and be a part of it.


Dan Runcie 00:23

Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Dazayah Walker, Head of Investments and the Operations Manager at Quality Control Music. This is an exciting role to have at a time like this. QC has been on a run the past few years and has really shaped what hip hop is sounded like, from artists like Migos, to City Girls, to Lil Baby, and then on the other side of this hip hop investing activity is growing faster than ever, and we're seeing more and more artists getting ICAP tables, getting involved with deals. So it's a really exciting time to have a role like this. I talked with Dazayah about what it's been like from her perspective, and representing and getting roles not just for QC as a firm, but for the artists that they represent, and how she has navigated the record label growing as fast as it has the past few years to venture capital landscape and how she's been able to navigate that and a whole lot more. Had a great conversation with her. Hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Dazayah Walker. All right, we got Dazayah Walker here today, who is the Head of Investments at Quality Control Music. Dazayah, welcome to the pod. 


Dazayah Walker 01:42

Hello, I'm so happy to be here. Super excited. Let's do this. 


Dan Runcie 01:46

Yeah, so one of the things that stuck out to me about you and your career, you had started as an intern at QC, and you've risen up the ranks there as the label as not just a record label, but as an entertainment company. And now with a corporate venture arm or brollies just continue to grow and expand. 


Dazayah Walker 02:05

Yes. 


Dan Runcie 02:06

Walk me through the steps. What was it like from when you started to where it is now, just with how fast things have been growing there? 


Dazayah Walker 02:13

Yeah, it's been a great journey and experience for me, with this being my first job. There's been a lot of learning curves with that in itself. But it was definitely a privilege and a great opportunity to be able to see the growth of QC, because we've expanded in so many different ways since I started as an intern, and being able to be a part of that, witness that, learn from that I couldn't be in a better position. 


Dan Runcie 02:36

And is there anything specific with the role that you have now that had drawn you to it or something specifically because I know you had started a bit more focused on operations? And then now we're obviously seeing much more on the investment side. But was there something about that opportunity that pulled you in? 


Dazayah Walker 02:52

Yes, so getting to this side was definitely a path of, I would say divine ordering because me entering the opportunity at QC. Starting as an intern, I thought I just wanted to do music, work my way up to being a music industry executive. But as I became more in the groove, and learning more of the things that I like, things that I don't like, I really had to find my place. And when I discovered what venture capital was, because when I was at Spelman, I was an economics major. So I kind of have like, I've always been surrounded by that when I was in school, just the finance, track and everything like that. But me venturing into music was me following my passion or what I thought was my passion at that time. So when I discovered what venture capital was, it was actually kind of crazy to me that I hadn't learned about it when I was in school, considering the impact that Morehouse, our brother institution has, as far as their representation of black men in venture capital. It was just crazy to me that I was at an institution right across the street and had no idea that this industry even existed. So when I stumbled across VC and began learning about it, I just saw the opportunity for artists, athletes and entertainers to be involved and was curious as to why more people that look like us aren't represented in those spaces. So that's when you know, my research and dedication to being in this position really started. And then from there, you know, bringing that idea and really helped become what we're building today with quality Ventures has been amazing. 


Dan Runcie 04:26

So talk to me about that piece about bringing this idea together. So was it you seeing the opportunity and seeing how much of a disconnect there was and then going into the team at QC to be like, hey, there's something big here and we have talent here that could be just as influential. 


Dazayah Walker 04:42

Yes. So it was a moment where I had to really think about what legacy do I want to have, what value do I want to add, and being in this position, you know, I built relationships with, you know, our entire team. So I was somebody that, you know, they trusted and when I, you know, have something to say they were listening, and you know, they embraced any idea or anything that I had. So by, you know, telling them and showing them, you know, the opportunity that exists for us in this space, it was well-received. And now here we are deploying capital, making investments. And my goal is really for us to have that same little level of influence and impact that we have in music in the venture capital space, as well. So having that same strong presence and footprint in that industry, too.


Dan Runcie 05:29

So what does that thesis look like? What does that investment goal look like for QC specifically, because I'm sure it's more than just the financial aspect? There's the pitch and how it can help intersect and how the music itself and everything you're doing on the media and entertainment side can help with the venture opportunity too?


Dazayah Walker 05:48

Absolutely, so our biggest thing is adding value, adding strategic value. So for us being in a unique position of being that entity that defines culture and creates culture, I feel like we're uniquely positioned to leverage our artists and our athletes to really help grow these companies that we see as potential winners.


Dan Runcie 06:11

And are there ever any specific moments where folks are reaching out? And there's, of course, the interest in having QC on the cap table, but then people reaching out about specific artists, whether it's like, oh, well, we want to have City Girls on here, specifically, or we want to be able to have a Lil Baby on here? How has it been with that piece of advice, I'm sure that could be an interesting discussion, especially from your landscape with all of that. 


Dazayah Walker 06:35

So that happens a lot as well. And it all boils down to seeing if the artist even aligns with what you're building. Because when you're working with early stage, or pre-seed stage companies, that may be the very first version of whatever they're building, there's so many more iterations yet to happen. And as the entity continues to grow, and transform, the artists that they thought may be ideal for what they're building as a representation may not be as they continue to, you know, redefine what it is that they're building. So yes, you know, we get opportunities all the time for our artists, which was another reason why, like the opportunity to bridge the gap and intersect music and technology was so evident and clear to me, you know, to pursue and to do, because those opportunities and those deals are always flowing. But really being in a position being someone that knows how to evaluate those opportunities, and educate, you know, the artist, or the athlete or whoever may be to let them know, like, this is why this is a good, you know, opportunity or something to look at and this is why it isn't.


Dan Runcie 07:41

I also imagine that there's likely people that may be reaching out because they may want just the exposure that may come right, they may be like, “Oh, well, if y'all invest can Lil Baby, give us a shout out for the product on some song. And I could see there being you know, some pushback on that, because obviously, you all would see the opportunity as being greater than that.” But how was that piece of it been? Because I know, I've heard similar from folks in the entertainment space when they're looking to have not just celebrities, but artists specifically on the cap table.


Dazayah Walker 08:13

Well, personally, I don't think a founder having that mindset is necessarily wrong because in the VC ecosystem now, capital isn't an issue. So getting the money having people to, you know, write a check for you isn't the hard part. It’s actually once you get that money, how can you use that, you know, relationship that you now have to help build your company or grow whatever it is that you're building. So I feel like a founder having that perspective isn't necessarily a bad thing, because you want to have partners that can help you grow your company and add value in different ways. So if there is an opportunity for an artist, if it's something that they really love, you know, to be an ambassador for it, and to push it.


Dan Runcie 08:58

So when you're evaluating startups, and when you're evaluating artists, or not artists, founders, specifically, what are you looking for, like, what is your criteria set? And what are those things whether it's tangible or intangible that you're looking for that clears that over the hurdle to be like, Yes, this is what we want to invest in?


Dazayah Walker 09:16

So I would break it down into three things. The first thing I would say, what is the problem that you're trying to solve? Is this a problem that is unique to you and from like, or where you're from? Or is this a problem that is affecting a wide market of people? So first, understanding the problem, and if the solution that they're attempting to build is a solution for the greater good? The second thing is really understanding their team, like, who do you have helping you build this? What people do need a position to help you build it? And like how much traction Have you gotten so far. And the first, and I think the most important thing is the founder, when you're working with companies that are likely pre-revenue, maybe they have a very, very early version of their product, you're placing a bet on the founder. So knowing the type of person to look for, or the type of characteristics to look for in a founder, I think are very important. Somebody that is determined, somebody that is all in like willing to make the investment themselves because how do you expect me or someone to make an investment when you haven't even, you know, fully invested yourself in this in this idea? So I will say those are the top three things that I look at when I meet with founders and new companies.


Dan Runcie 10:33

That makes sense. And then in terms of the industries themselves, is there any type of sector that you're particularly looking for, or any other type of industry that you feel is most aligned with what QC or Quality Ventures is after?


Dazayah Walker 10:49

Yeah, so as a company, Quality Ventures isn't looking in specific industries and verticals. I know a lot of people think since you know, we have Quality Control Music, we're looking strictly at music-based companies and startups. And that's not necessarily true. Like I said, our whole thesis is really about us being in a position to add value. But for me, specifically, I really like looking at fintech companies, I think that Fintech is the next market to really boom so paying attention to the trends, paying attention to what people are saying, paying attention to what problems are they need to be solved. So for me personally, the industry of interest to me is fintech.


Dan Runcie 11:28

And what is it about fintech specifically that sticks out to you or interest you?


Dazayah Walker 11:32

I like it because I think it's time for a change as far as how money is viewed, how money is moved. Like I know, you probably have seen how crypto, everybody's talking about crypto, and preparation for the metaverse, like, all of those things are happening strategically. And by being aware of what's happening in fintech, you know how the money is moving what the future of money and finances look like. So that you can kind of put yourself in position to not only be educated about it but know how to make your next move when it comes to what the future looks like.


Dan Runcie 12:05

Right? That makes sense. And I think especially when you look more broadly at the definition of FinTech, and you look at companies like Coinbase, and you look at some of the partnerships that they've had with organizations like the NBA, or even the United Masters, there's clearly an alignment where even if it isn't in the quote-unquote, entertainment landscape, this touches so much. So that's why I think you see so many artists and companies in this space that want to tap into all these areas, even if they're not necessarily what you may think is in that industry. 


Dazayah Walker 12:38

Exactly. 


Dan Runcie 12:39

And with that, I mean, for you, I know that another partnership that QC has, at least on the investment side, from what I've seen is in Techstars Music, and I saw that you're a mentor there and that QC more broadly as a partner. So how has that experience been?


Dazayah Walker 12:56

It's been amazing. Just the Techstars music team in general have been a great like resource for us. So when the program, when we joined the program last year, we kind of were thrown in when things were already in motion, like they were already preparing for demo day, the companies in the cohort were already selected. But now I was able to be a part of the process of you know, picking the companies for the new cohort, being a part of like all the member meetings and the mentor meetings. So with me still being in a very early part of my career, I'm always looking for opportunities to learn and experience new things. And Techstars has been an amazing teacher for me. Just seeing things from that perspective, working with an accelerator, like working with founders and seeing them in that perspective has definitely helped me I feel like become a better venture capitalist, just seeing things from different angles and different perspectives. Because honestly, once I made the decision to transition into venture capital, I was a little discouraged because I am entering it through a very unconventional background. So any opportunity that I have to learn and observe and ask questions, it's been amazing, because it's been it's been a rough journey for me to be able to confidently say, this is what I'm doing. I know that I'm uniquely qualified to do that thing, and, you know, moving like that. So it's been a journey, Dan, I tell you,


Dan Runcie 14:22

I could imagine I mean, there are not many people that look like you that are doing this type of work. And when you compound that with what people already may assume is standard for what they expect for people working at, the type of company you work at that just compounds it further. I mean, what are some of the things that you had done early on to try to, you know, either break through that or try to navigate that the best, and I could only imagine how tough that could be at times.


Dazayah Walker 14:50

Yeah, I would definitely say reaching out to people asking questions, really being a sponge, absorbing as much information and knowledge as I can. Because making this pivot into an entire new industry is scary, because like, I built my network in my name and music. And now, I feel like making a career shift almost as still such an early point in my career was very, very scary. But some of those same like tactics and things that I did to be successful or reach the level of success that I had in music, I applied those same principles to me, you know, trying to achieve a level of success in venture capital. So really finding mentors and finding a community to learn from to be supported by and to be supportive of, and just taking things day by day. And knowing that every day is an opportunity to learn something new, and, you know, not taking opportunity for granted because I know I'm in a very unique and special position. And I'm grateful for the position that I'm in. So really showing people why I, you know, I'm deserving of the role that I've been placed in.


Dan Runcie 16:04

Definitely. And I also think, too, whether it's programs like HBCU, VC, and obviously, you representing that being an alum from HBCU them recognizing that this is a pipeline that not only is a challenge, but how can they help bridge that gap? And, you know, are there any specific organizations, whether it's like that or others that have been helpful for you as you've gone along this path?


Dazayah Walker 16:26

Yeah, so definitely HBCU BC, considering I was a fellow, that was an amazing program with amazing teachers, and I've really been able to, like tap into that community, which has been amazing. Another community that I'm really grateful for is Black VC and the Black Venture Capital Consortium, both of those organizations have been super supportive and welcoming of me. And it's things like that, that are very important for not even just me being a young black woman, but you know, being a person of color trying to enter another space that is male-dominated, white-male-dominated. So just having that comfort of knowing that there are people that support you and want to uplift you and see you do amazing things.


Dan Runcie 17:11

Yeah, definitely. I could see that for sure. I could see that. Well. Let's circle back quick. I do want to talk about some of the public investments that you've made. I know that Riff was one of them, that you all were in, was that one of them? Riff, yes. Okay. So what was the process like for that investment? What was it that attracted you about that company?


Dazayah Walker 17:31

Well, Riff isn't one that I necessarily, like found from the beginning and worked all the way to the point where we cut the check. But Riff has been an amazing company in our portfolio, I'm super excited for what they're building, just seeing them being disruptive and combining elements that we as consumers love, I'm really excited for the journey of Riff and being able to be a great partner to them, and just seeing them grow. And you know, being along that journey in that ride with them, but they're definitely building something amazing. And I'm excited for, you know, the masses to really, you know, tap into it, learn about it, and really get engaged with it.


Dan Runcie 18:10

Yeah, I can see that. Are there any that are public that you've worked on that you can talk more about?


Dazayah Walker 18:17

Yeah, so one of my favorite companies in our portfolio, which is actually one of the companies from the previous class of Techstars. It's called Faith. And this is one that I really, really loved. Because not only did our relate to like the platform, just to give you a little bit of background Faith is an app for fans. It allows fans to come together and really live within their fandom. And with me being a past fangirl, I immediately fell in love with what she was building. And the founder, she's a black woman, she's a solopreneur, which is a challenge in itself. So just seeing what she's built so far, the amount of traction that she's received, and just how far she has come has been super inspirational for me, you know, being involved, even in like the due diligence and saying, I think this is a great company, I think this is one that we really should pay attention to, to the point of us actually deploying capital to that company. That was super cool, and really amazing. And that's another company in our portfolio that I'm super excited about. And I feel like not only will my generation, like, enjoy the app, but the generation underneath me will as well, so…


Dan Runcie 19:23

Nice. That makes sense. Yeah. And I feel with apps like that in platforms. I mean, not only do you have the direct connection, but I'm sure you being able to have the connection to it. I mean, these are the type of things obviously it's still early stage, you know, but gets marked up you continue to have that influence over it and you never know where that could take you. I feel like that's kind of the exciting thing, especially for the people I talk to you that are that start their careers in VC, as opposed to the other way around the, you know, the folks that may have done something on the product side and then go into vc.


Dazayah Walker 19:56

Yeah, but my goal overall, really is to, you know, find my groove in this and really, you know, find success for myself and I define success within this space is being able to invest in companies, have exits, and you know, have a strong portfolio, so that I can get to the point where I'm able to educate and inform, because I feel like, part of the reason why a lot of artists, athletes, and entertainers, which is, you know, the people that I'm used to working with and being around, which is why I really strongly urge them to get into this space, and why I feel like I'm in the position, and the person to really do that work, is because they don't know, like, there's that kind of barrier. Like they may see things on social media of other artists that have invested in Gods, you know, there's money back, but really having someone there to educate them and be that bridge and that conduit from, you know, them being in the position and the level of influence, and you know, the reach that they have, and showing them and being that person to bring deals to them to help them leverage that so that not only are they able to, you know, be represented in this space, but build generational wealth for them and their families. Like that's the bigger picture. And that's the goal for me. And that's the work that I really want to do and look forward to doing. So finding success here and having a strong, like track record and proven portfolio, and then being able to use that as a way to show people you can do this too. And this is how, let me show you how, let me be that person to help you understand and be a part of it.


Dan Runcie 21:32

Yeah, that's powerful. Because I feel like especially for you or you're in your position now. There's a lot of people that I'm sure look at you being like, oh, Dazayah, how can we get in that? Like, how do you were able to, you know, connect those dots. And then you obviously, you know, I'm sure you feel like you're deep into yourself, you're learning as you're continuing to grow. But you know that in the near future, you will be able to have enough. And that can look like a number of things, whether that's a course or some other type of platform to just share and disseminate this information. Because not only is it important for people to hear it, it's important for people to hear it from people who you know, look like you they if you want to inspire, you know, especially if there's black women across the country across the world, I want to hear it, the more folks that could share their experience, the better that is.


Dazayah Walker 22:16

Absolutely, I agree 100%. Like, the more you know, the better position that you can put yourself in. And I just think it's a lack of knowledge, people just not knowing, like, what these things mean, how to get in on deals, how much to invest, like, there's so many layers to it. And I feel like if people were a bit more comfortable, they'd be more open and investing their money in other ways than the traditional stocks and bonds or, you know, how people see fit to save their money or invest their money, I should say. 


Dan Runcie 22:47

Yeah, especially now I feel like we're seeing things like whether it's the accredited investor rule or other things just continuing to be challenged, we're gonna see more and more people investing the definition of an investor and who can get involved with things. As those barriers continue to lower, the options increase. And when that happens, it just provides more space for education. So yeah, you're definitely on the right track with all that stuff has ever said. 100%


Dazayah Walker 23:13

Thank you. That really means a lot. Thank you.


Dan Runcie 23:16

Yeah, well, um, I know that, you know, we've covered a lot in this. But before we let you go, I do want to get a quick take from you on what are you most excited for? What's coming through the QC portfolio for the rest of 2022? And I guess portfolio, that'd be more on the artists side. Specifically, what are you excited for on that front. 


Dazayah Walker 23:36

I'm just excited for the continued growth of Quality Control as an empire. It hasn't even been 10 years that QC has been in existence. And for us to have made so much leeway, create so much history have so much impact within that 10-year window. I'm excited to see what the next five years look like for us. But even just in the next year, in the next 12 months, I'm excited to see the continued growth and effort of our team, like our team has grown dramatically. So if we were able to do and accomplish so much with such a small team, I'm excited to see what the next 12 months look like for our expansion and our growth and just everything to come and everything that we're building, publicly and silently. I'm just grateful for the position that I'm in and be able to be a part of that and even say those things. So the next year it's going to look like a lot of wins continued success and growth and expansion for all of us.


Dan Runcie 24:38

That's exciting. I feel like the past decade for QC has been incredible. I think it's so tough for indie labels to be able to have that type of run in the fact that they have says a lot. So I'm excited. I mean, as a fan of all of this, I'm excited to see what happened. But yeah, before we let you go, is there anything else you want to plug or let the Trapital audience know about?


Dazayah Walker 25:00

I should say this is great, Dan, I absolutely love what you're doing what you're building, you're spreading a message that needs to be heard by so many. And you're not only inspiring me, but you're inspiring people that you may not even know that you're touching. So keep doing the work that you're doing. This was awesome. Thank you so much.


Dan Runcie 25:19

Thank you. I appreciate that. Appreciate that. We'll do. Thanks, Dazayah.


Dazayah Walker 25:23

All right. Thank you, Dan.


Dan Runcie 25:28

 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 1565 no Frank Cooper III Brokered Beyonce-Pepsi’s $50 Million Deal. Here’s Where He Sees Industry Going Next https://www.trapital.com/podcast Take a quick look at Frank Cooper’s resume and you might think, “what HASN’T he done?” He’s both Berkeley- and Harvard-educated. Coming out of school, Frank cut his teeth with two iconic labels — Motown Records and Def Jam. And most recently, he’s been Chief Marketing Officer for world-renown brands like Pepsi, BlackRock, and breaking news, he just took the same role with VISA.   But if you ask Frank, his early years inside the music industry formed the backbone of his illustrious career. It’s during this time period where Frank developed cultural aptitude — and specifically, how to connect larger societal needs with brands he’s led.  Frank’s unique pedigree that spans music, entertainment, and finance makes his views on business all the more fascinating. And believe me, Frank has a lot of thoughts about today’s ever-changing music landscape — whether it’s in the inflow of capital or the ripples that Web 3.0 will create. Here’s all the talking points Frank and I covered on today’s episode of Trapital: Episode Highlights [2:12] How Working In The Music Industry Laid The Foundation For Frank’s Career [6:37] Differences Between Hip Hop and Grunge Rock In The Mid ‘90s [8:15] How O.G. Artists “Set The Table” For Today’s Artist Entrepreneurs  [11:56] How Frank Put Together Beyoncé and Pepsi $50 Million Deal  [15:45] Frank Reviews The Latest Super Bowl Halftime Show (And Names The Best One Of All Time) [20:35] Helping Blackrock Create A New Purpose Statement Beyond Purely Profit [23:48] How The Big Short Movie Convinced Frank To Join The Financial Industry  [26:22] Frank’s Thoughts About NFTs, Metaverse, And Web 3.0 [29:37] Early Tech Adoption Among Hip-Hop Artists Over The Years [31:05] Does Frank Own Anything In His Digital Wallet? [34:05] Frank Thinks Some Brands Are Too Early To Web 3.0 [37:18] Frank’s Harvard Business Review About Diversity In The Workplace [38:18] Clarence Avant’s Influence On Frank’s Career [43:17] What’s One Of The Best Pieces Of Advice Frank Has Ever Received? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Frank Cooper III     Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands ______________ Frank Cooper 0:00   I'm actually not a big believer in traditional financial literacy by itself. I think all the research I've seen suggests that it doesn't change behavior because it's too academic, it's filled with jargon, it's long-form, you know? People's eyes glaze over when you're having the conversation, but I do believe that financial education is absolutely critical. Dan Runcie 0:25   Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Frank Cooper, who is just named the new Chief Marketing Officer at Visa. Frank and I recorded this episode before the announcement, so we didn't talk about it here. But I was glad to have Frank on because his experience has been so deep in entertainment, in branding and in marketing. Dating back to his time as an executive at Motown, Def Jam, and then more recently, his time with Pepsi, Buzzfeed and BlackRock. And when you think about his career, it is the perfect combination of understanding brands, what they can learn from the entertainment space and how he's brought that to each sector, which is why it was so relevant to have him on this podcast. We talked about some of the deals he had done with Beyonce and other major artists. We also talked about broader trends with marketing, brands, what they can learn from creators, why financial literacy is so important for Frank and a whole lot more. Had a great time talking with him. Hope you enjoy this one. Here's my chat with Frank Cooper. All right, today, we got Frank Cooper with us, who is a longtime marketing executive, currently CMO at BlackRock, but you started your career in the music industry, which I always love to see. So, it will be great to start there with you first, welcome. It's great to have you.  Frank Cooper 2:11   Thanks, Dan. Great to be here. Dan Runcie 2:12   Yeah, it'd be great to start off with the music career piece of it, because you worked at Motown and you worked at Def Jam as well. And you worked at both of those labels at pretty influential times for them. What stands out most to you from that time? What are you most proud of? Frank Cooper 2:26   Wow! Well, you know, first of all, it's funny because people say you came from the music industry, how are you connecting this to what you're doing, whether that was at PepsiCo, or here at BlackRock, and I got to tell you, those are some of the most foundational experiences that have shaped pretty much everything that I've done since. And when I think back to Motown, Motown was, was interesting, because, you know, Motown early on was all about assimilation, right? It's about taking black culture and cultivating it in such a way that it can appeal broadly. You know, and how the music sounds, the way they walk, the way they talk, etc. It gave you Smokey Robinson, Diana Ross, The Jackson 5, and Marvin Gaye. And that worked really well.  In the 90s, it became more about how to evolve that. And so, I thought it was a really interesting juncture. And I was really excited to be there because, you know, at that time, people didn't really want to talk about pure assimilation. They want to be authentic to themselves. And so how do you take that Motown ethos and make it work within, you know, the culture of that time. And, you know, at the time we had Boyz II Men, ABC, and Queen Latifah, and it was fascinating to see that I think we're still at that juncture where R&B still trying to find its place, honestly, and we can talk more about that. But I think Motown at that time became a symbol for how to evolve RMB in a way that fit the culture of the day. Def Jam was completely the opposite. And people look back at it. People today think it was inevitable, they think, you know, hip hop's the number one genre across the world and it seems inevitable, but at the time, some people were wondering whether hip hop at the last, you know, there's: Hey, is this a fad or not? And what I loved about it was that those who were in that game, those were at Def Jam at the time; you understood that this was not just about the music, it's about the deep cultural sensibility that actually propelled that whole genre, you know. Doing it on your own, operating outside of the mainstream, overcoming struggle, and teaching people how to overcome struggle. And so, for me, that became like the most invigorating part of being there Def Jam, and you just saw artists come through that at the time were just creating incredible momentum. You know, we had the month of the man with Method Man and Redman, now we had Jay-Z come through Kanye, you know, and DMX. And it was just this massive kind of momentum that kept building and it all for me at least reinforced this idea of them at their best. They're teaching people how to overcome struggle. And by the mid-90s, what I thought was the most interesting law and that's probably why they in the history of music, one of the more interesting time periods because you had the flannel shirts up in Seattle, the grunge movement happening. And that was had a lot of momentum, and you had hip hop, and you look at the trajectory of those two genres; they went completely in the opposite direction. And grunge was purely about suburban angst, you know, you know, like: Oh, my God, you know, I don't have meaning in you know, what do I do? And I'm not trying to belittle it, but that's kind of where the center of gravity was. And meanwhile hip hop I was like, how do we win, despite the fact that the mainstream has their foot out trying to trip us up? How do we win? How do we get past it? How do we overcome struggle? How do we do it on our own? And to me, that's what I remember more than anything else. And then finally, the artists that I've connected with the most, were the ones that actually embraced that the most, I loved Chuck D and Public Enemy, you know, and took the Public enemy to me, you know, representative, probably the more extreme version of that. I love Jay-Z, and how can you not love Jay-Z and what he's accomplished? And then some people may, you know, Kanye West, Kanye is Kanye. But Kanye, to me is genius. Because Kanye was able to change our sensibility of what hip hop could be, you know, at that time. He was using music sources that others weren't using, he was using voice in a different way. The lyrics were not as combative as some others, they gave expanded the universal what was possible in hip hop. And I think Kanye played a central role in that. And so, I really have a lot of respect for him and what he did at that time for Def Jam, and I've always carried it with me. Dan Runcie 6:37   That piece about the artists specifically in the grunge era and in hip hop at that same time, I think it's so key because when people talk a lot about Gen X and Generation X, I think the first thought that may go to people's minds is not just grunge with thinking of the image of Kurt Cobain, or you know, something a Billy Corgan from The Smashing Pumpkins, or one of those in all of what they embodied. But on the other side of that ice cube, Dre and Snoop Dogg are also Gen X and have a very different vibe in terms of what they wanted their music to represent. Not that angst isn't something that they didn't have in their young 20s as well. But it was a very different way of communicating their reality, their experience, and I think people don't always necessarily connect that when they talk about Gen X, at least it in a mainstream way.  Frank Cooper 7:27   No, Dan, I think that’s exactly right. And, and you know, what's fascinating is that they both were, both those genres, were tackling the same problem, right? They both looked out and said: Man, these traditional institutions are kind of failing us. I can't rely on them as much as I used to. The definition of success that's been put out there, that's something that I adhere to. They were fighting against the same things, but they took two different paths. And I personally believe that the reason, one of the reasons why hip hop prevailed in that is because it helped you to move forward, you know. If you were, it was invigorating, it would inspire you to try to move forward, not to wallow in any kind of sadness. And I think there's value in that too. But it was about: Okay, it is what it is. Now, how do we move forward? Yeah, make it happen on your own. And they did it not only in the lyrics, they did it in the entirety of their behavior. You know, that's when you started to see the artists become entrepreneurs, you started to see them actually extend their brand and to other businesses. And they built an enterprise, each of these ones of those that were successful to build an enterprise based on the music. And that, to me has become the blueprint, a blueprint for how artists are thinking about it today. Even if you fast forward to this current line. I've never seen this much money flow into music, you know, investors, now buying out catalogs, and we're part of that too, we announce a recent partnership with influence media, Lylette Pisarro and René McLean. But I've never seen this much money flow into music. But to me, it's an extension of what hip hop started, which is there is no inauthenticity in. You're getting paid, you can get paid, you can cash a check, you can extend your business in a variety of ways, and still remain true to yourself. And I think many people today who are reaping the benefits of that should look back to the early days of hip hop and fake and thank those artists.  Dan Runcie 9:21   And I think that speaks a lot to your career as well. Because you were able to take your experience. You saw the potential of what these artists could do with their brands. And then you were able to work with a lot of the brands themselves to help bring those artists to the forefront and be: Hey, you can help tell the story for this brand. We can help augment not just what you're doing, but help this brand do it as well. And especially in that time in the 2000s- 2010s, we started to see more, and more that you're at the forefront for so much of that. Frank Cooper 9:50   Yeah, you know, one thing that always bothered me when I saw celebrity sponsorships and endorsements and advertisements, it was purely transactional. People would say, you know: I'll write a check to these artists and put them in my commercial. And we'll have the most beautiful drink shot and this commercial, they're like: Oh, closer, closer, closer here, beautiful. We've captured it, we won. But most fans and consumers, they understand that game. And they're like: You know what, I'm glad that ours cut that check, beautiful thing, and I'm happy for that. But I don't believe there's any real connection between that artist and the brand or that product. And therefore, that was completely wasted money. And so, the angle that I took when I took it is that I knew that virtually every celebrity that I've ever met, they all have their own aspirations. They want to do certain things that they cannot do within their current industries, there's always an artist, a filmmaker who wants to make a certain kind of film that they can't make. There’s an artist that wants to do a certain song or put it out in a certain way that they can't do, or they want to extend into new areas. And so, I spent most of my time trying to understand: What are their aspirations? What are they trying to accomplish that they can't accomplish to their own ecosystem? And found that connection point to what we wanted to do. And to me that was the unlock, is like, if I can find that shared aspiration, then I can start to express shared values, shared experiences, a shared worldview that was true. And to me, if you can capture that you don't always win on it. But if you can capture that, that's gold. And I tried to do that across, you know, as many artists as I could. Dan Runcie 11:25   Yeah. And I think even that breakdown that you had, you're seeing more of the good examples. Now just seeing some of the great deals that come through, you're still seeing some of the ones that you may shake your head out, whether it's the Instagram posts, or they're just getting a check for something. But in general, you're starting to see more of the long-term value add. And I feel like the Beyonce deal that you had done with Pepsi specifically, that feels like one that falls more in line with there's a longer-term opportunity here to really highlight and tell that story. Frank Cooper 11:56   Yeah, you know, it's funny, because when I first started having the conversations with Beyonce and her team, I was like: Okay, this is a long shot, you know. Beyonce was very particular, and rightly, and, you know, reluctant to do anything that didn't fit what she truly believed and didn't fit her values. So, I spent a lot of time with the team trying to understand what they wanted to accomplish. And you know, her part of her genius, I think she's genius on many levels, but part of it is, she understood that she wanted to release things in ways that artists have not done before. And she wanted to create content that complemented the music in ways that artists have not done before, like a visual album. And so, we can help with it, you know, we can help launch the album, we've got millions of packages that are going out every day. And so, what if we did a bespoke design in those packages, and it relates to your album. What if we actually helped fund that visual album. What if we helped put your single out, but most important what if you got in front of 120 million people in the Super Bowl halftime, and then release something after that, you know, it became the most powerful ad possible for you to drive sales of your album. And that's really what made the connection because, you know, if I went to Beyonce in our team and said: Here's a piece of paper, I'm going to slip it across the table to you, and there's a number on here that should make you fall out and excitement. I still would not have considered that there would never have happened, there was no doubt in my mind, there was no amount of money alone that would get convinced her to do it. But it was understanding what she was trying to accomplish and how we could participate in that in a way that benefited both of us. And so that's one for me, one of the most extraordinary deals that I've been involved in, but also one of the most extraordinary experiences because I've learned in part why she is so good. And it was driving me crazy at the time. But she was 100%, right? You know we did, we did a commercial. And what I didn't realize is that, but you look at the commercial and say: Hey, make some edits here, there. She looked at it herself, frame by frame. And then she broke down the arc. And then she, I mean, she was into it and intense. And what I realized is not just Beyonce; with other artists, I’ve seen it with Snoop, you know, Nicki Minaj, I’ve seen it with a wide range of artists is that they put it in, they put the work in. It's not like they say: I'm this brilliant artist, and I'm going to come in and just kind of still use my brilliance and move on. They actually put in the time, and they're focused and intense. And they want to make sure it is the best product they can put out no matter what they're putting out. Dan Runcie 14:31   Yeah, with her specifically, you've seen that with each album. I mean, it's like find some way to just level up and continue to do that. And even thinking back to that deal and from the consumer perspective, just seeing how everything lined up. I mean, she put the lights out after the show at that Super Bowl, right? It was something else. But the one piece I did want to clarify with that. So, if the Super Bowl wasn't in the conversation, is it fair to assume that all that deal wouldn't have worked that needed to be if they'd put it over the edge? Frank Cooper 15:02   No, no, it would have worked in either way, because I think the Super Bowl definitely contributed to it. Because how many times you're going to have a simultaneous audience of 100 million-plus people watching something. But there were enough other things that she really wanted to do that we could help on. And that didn't involve just the check, you know, the infrastructure of Pepsi at the time, it could be helpful in so many different ways. And I think what's the collection of all those things together, pull the Super Bowl out, I would have added something else that it was done a full-length film together something, you know, but there would have been something that would meet her desire to break the boundaries of what has been done before, and that PepsiCo could actually help her deliver.  Dan Runcie 15:45   Talking about the Super Bowl. What did you think about the show that we had this past year with Dre, Snoop and 50 Cent, Kendrick, Marry? Frank Cooper 15:53   So, man, I was almost in tears in a way because, you know, I am. So before I left PepsiCo, I renegotiated a 10 year deal with a couple of billion dollars. And I got to know some of the owners, definitely got to know the NFL headquarters very well. And I thought I would never see that day where you had that lineup of artists, you know, from Dre to Snoop to Kendrick to Mary J. Blige, Eminem, and 50 Cent, but you would have never seen that day. But more importantly, I thought I would never see it presented in such an authentic way. They didn't tone down the visuals. And I think it was the absolute best performance I've ever seen, I don't think was the best performance I've ever seen overall, but the collection of that effort, and the collection of the artists and the energy and the visual presentations. For me, this is, this was a seminal moment that I think we should all remember because it will open up the doors for many other artists to come. And what I realized is that they knew it too because you could see, by the way, they were very careful what they did and made sure that they stay within certain bounds. The only person who did something semi-controversial was Eminem, right? And when he nailed it, this to me was a really powerful moment, I thought I would never see it. And I hope that it's not a one-off. You know, I hope that you know, as we see future NFL productions as well as the Super Bowl that we see more black artists, and that we see hip hop, in particular, play a more central role. Dan Runcie 17:20   I agree. I think that this one specifically helped almost if you look back to the one, they had in Atlanta, and I feel like there's a lot of talks there about why could've represented Atlanta's soul, R&B, hip hop vibes that, you know, are so tremendous to that city, and then a show that didn't end up showing that 100%. And I feel like: Okay, we have this here. And if you just look at the slide, there are so many cities coming up where you could see something similar for these types of artists, so that that could be special. Frank Cooper 17:51   Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, so disappointing when they happen in Atlanta. It's like, wait a minute, are you kidding me? Atlanta is all about music. I can lead. Dan Runcie 18:00   It's like, I mean, Maroon Five definitely deserves to be on that stage. I mean, they're one of the biggest groups of the past two decades, but from a time in place, and all the things lining up. It was like, come on. Yeah, I know. And they got out what do you got? We got Big Boy, and almost as like a, you know, afterthought to be like: Okay, here, we're hearing the chatter. Let's see who we could get for this one. But that's it. Frank Cooper 18:25   Let's give him half a second, don’t look too long, you know, this probably, they will never let me program it. Because I would have gone back, I would have dug in the crates a bit. I would say, you know, let's go to the Goodie Mob. All right, let's bring them back. But you could also they could just soften it up. I mean, you know, Toni Braxton, you know, the whole of face lineup from a certain era could have been on their. Ludacris, He's a mainstream star now. There's so much they could have done. And hopefully, they saw through this, that it was a lost opportunity. And I think they're seeing what's happening on social media from this last Super Bowl, that it's a powerful force that they can tap into, in a way that actually improves the NFL brand. And so, I think the fear was, in some way, this is going to alienate those who are not on the coast, you know, the Midwest. But I hope the realization is now that hip hop is not isolated to the coast. You know, hip hop is foundational across every geographic territory today. Dan Runcie 19:25   Right. And especially with this one, too. You had Eminem, who Midwest, one of the biggest artists of the past, you know, a couple of decades to so we'll see. I know you mentioned that this was the best one. Which one do you get the number one for Super Bowl? Frank Cooper 19:41   Well, you know, for me, the one that was most special for me was Prince. And when he did Purple Rain, and it started to rain, it's like a whole thing was magical. It was incredible. Dan Runcie 19:51   It was poetic. It was like you couldn't script this. It was beautiful. Shifting gears, a bit. Want to talk a bit more about your role and your experience right now at Blackrock. You joined a few years ago, and it was a similar type of role, given the CMO position that you've had, you've had other companies, but definitely a different type of industry and a different type of sector that you had worked in up to that point. But in hearing you in other interviews and things you've talked about, trying to bring financial literacy and elevate that to the discussion has been an important piece of that. So, it'd be great to hear a little bit more about what that's been like for you since you've been there and how that has taken shape. Frank Cooper 20:35   Yeah, you know, one of the things that I don't know if this is a risk or not, but at least one of the things I did when I first came in was trying to make, trying to convince the leadership of Blackrock that it needed to have a sense of purpose that wouldn’t be on profits, that wouldn't be on money. Working closely with a bunch of other people, we were successful in doing that. And part of that purpose statement that we ended up with, included this idea of financial inclusion, we help more and more people experience financial well-being. And so, getting that built into the core of a company where we say, hey, that's our ultimate goal. Yes, money and profits are an outcome that we have to have to succeed. But our ultimate goal is to help more and more people experience financial well-being. So, by having financial inclusion built into it, that was a huge step. But I mentioned earlier, that music helped me quite a bit. And the part that helped me is that I looked at culture first, like what is happening in culture that is urgent and important, and that our industry can address.  One of the things that's happening in culture, for sure, and you can see it all over the world is that more people are feeling like they're excluded from the opportunities for economic mobility, that they don't believe the system is working in their favor, they don't have access to improve their own prosperity. And so, you know, for me, you take that cultural lens and work back to the industry of questions, what can we do to improve that? I'm actually not a big believer in traditional financial literacy by itself. I think all the research I've seen, suggests that it doesn't change behavior because it's too academic, it’s filled with jargon, it's long-form, you know, people's eyes glaze over when you're having the conversation. But I do believe that financial education is absolutely critical. So, what I've started to do is think about what are the elements that can help people move forward and become investors. So, it's increasing their savings. And I think it's four things I think, is knowledge, skills, community, and access. And so, if you go to Reddit, or one of the trending, one of the most substantial subreddit threads, or at least around financial education. People want to know, like, give me the information, but also helped me build the skills, and then give me a community, it gives me some support. And all I need after that is some access, make it easier for me to come in, and make it safe for me to try. And so that's what I've been focused on is really trying to figure out how to improve the knowledge, skills, community, and access so that people have a better shot at increasing their own sense of prosperity. Dan Runcie 23:11   Yeah. And from the work you've done so far, I feel like I could see those connections, you started the Tik Tok page. I've been posting more they're trying to connect a bit more with not just the younger generation, but with being able to break those things down. And I know another thing that you had said, once you really liked how a movie like The Big Short was able to help boil these principles down and communicate in a way to be like: Hey, here it is, these concepts aren't as complex as they may always seem, but let's do it in layman's terms. And I feel like I could see elements of that with some of the content that you've all put out recently. Frank Cooper 23:48   Yeah, you know, one of the things that convinced me that I should come into BlackRock and move over to financial services was watching that film The Big Short, which is kind of ironic, right? Because it was not a favorable view of the financial services industry. Dan Runcie 24:02   A lot of people may watch that movie and not want to come work at BlackRock. Frank Cooper 24:08   But what stuck with me is like, you know, a lot of friends who were in investment, and I used to ask him these questions like: What's this thing called a credit default swap? And he would explain it to me, and I'm like: I think I'm fairly smart. I have no idea what you're talking about, like, you know, and I just give up. When I saw The Big Short, I saw those interstitials. And you saw Selena in the club, you know, or the late Anthony Bourdain in the restaurant, or Margie in the tub of champagne. They explained those concepts in really simple terms that anyone can understand. And for me, that was like an awakening was like: You know what? It's not that complicated really. It's just that some people are making it complicated. What if we can actually deliver it in ways that people like to learn today, you know, short-form, jargon-free, highly visual with relatable role models. Man, that could be like a really fascinating thing because then suddenly people could start to take steps forward and become part of the benefits of saving and investing. And so, it was a really defining moment for me. And I’ve taken that logic, and I'm trying to apply it today, you know, in Tik Tok, already, there's already a movement happening on Tick Tock, I mean, if you look at #moneytalk, you know, it's one of the top hashtags already, but it is, in my mind the perfect format for what I'm talking about short-form, highly visual, jargon-free and relatable role models. And, you know, I'm excited we've just launched. So, it's really early days, but I'm really excited about the potential of that platform and other platforms to find a crack in the code on financial education and financial literacy, and financial inclusion. But I think that is the pathway for our own sense of purpose of including more people the benefits of investing. Dan Runcie 25:55   Definitely. Yeah, I mean, it's consuming so much attention and has so much mindshare over a generation, you have to be where they're at. I'm curious if there are other channels, are there other areas that you're pursuing, or you're considering doing especially this next year. I feel like things are moving so fast with everything happening, whether it's Web 3.0 or the metaverse. There could be endless opportunities to distill and communicate this type of information. Frank Cooper 26:22   Yeah, well, that's such a difficult question. Because, you know, I'm always trying to figure out where things are moving next, and in time it in a way where it can have an impact because I've also learned the hard way, that being too early is the same as being too late. The impact really won't hit you, or abroad, enough people, set of people in the way that you want. And so, when I look at timing and change, I think we have an opportunity in a long-form video, you know, I think we could do things like a documentary film that will be really interesting and helpful, and not just kind of the shilling of the brand or the company. But this area of NFTs and the metaverse is we're at the height of the hype cycle right now. So, we got to get through that. And no one knows exactly how it's going to take shape. But there's a few things we do know. We do know that people want to have the experience of being in an immersive environment. Video games have been doing it for a long time now. And we saw that ship years ago and video games. I don't remember earlier in the video games used to give different tools and weapons and other things that people could use within the game as you started to level up. They eliminated that for variety reasons, including they thought it was unfair terms of pure gameplay, but they had shifted from that to accessories. And so, once you shift to the accessories in the virtual world like a video game, you've entered the metaverse in a way. It's not as immersive as a 3d environment necessarily, but you're entering the metaverse because now you have these accessories. And so, imagine if you're in a virtual world, and these virtual worlds are connected, and you have some limited-edition Nike shoes, or you have some other crypto collectible, that to me is the direction is going, what we can do is that there's some form of exchange that has to happen in these environments. And we can be part of that exchange number one, but then when you look at something like Decentraland, where people could buy a plot of virtual land and build what they want on it, and people can invest and people can start to save suddenly in that virtual world this idea of financial services, investing, asset allocation becomes really interesting. And I think we have an opportunity to step in there in a way that's still authentic, but it also can deliver real value to people who are experiencing those virtual environments. So, I'm very excited about the metaverse, I'm excited about NFTs within the metaverse in particular, in the role that financial services can play. Dan Runcie 28:52   Yeah, I agree. It's been fascinating to see how much has changed in the past six months, you know, year plus at this point. But it's also been interesting to see more and more celebrities and especially folks in hip hop that are pushing it themselves or are changing their social avatars to whether it's board apes or some other assets that they have. So, it's really great to see those folks be ahead of the curve as well on a thing like this. Because as we both know, if you're able to have them to set the direction and get their audience bought in, there could be a lot of movement, not just with, you know, who gets bought in but who gets bought in early that could eventually set the tone for what the landscape looks like, looks like as it matures. Frank Cooper 29:37   Yeah. And you know, I've always been, I'm happy to see that black artists in particular, but hip hop artists in general, are now are getting credit for leading being one of the leaders within technology. I think it's always happened when ringtones are out, they were leaders of it. When mobile phones and mobile communications were out there were leaders of that. When Twitter launched Black Twitter was the hottest thing on the platform. But it was largely unrecognized. Now it's being recognized. And I'm also sensing a slight mindset shift among some of these artists. So, you take that piece of it, but also this notion that I can be a pure consumer. And it's been or I can build wealth. And you know, we saw seeds of that even in Jay-Z’s 444 album, but even when I see someone like Rick Ross come off the plane to say: Hey, I just did a set for someone I got X amount of check, am I going to go and buy another gold chain? I'm going to invest in this. It is a mindset shift in terms of what success looks like, and all that wealth plays within it. And so, with the convergence of those two things, I think that we're entering a space that none of us know exactly how it's going to play out, but a space where new opportunities are going to come both for artists, but also for entrepreneurs. And just for people who have traditionally been excluded, you know, from the benefits of investing and saving and wealth in general. Dan Runcie 30:57   What is your involvement in this space look like? Have you gotten deep into it with yourself, whether it's your own wallets or things that you've been tapping into? Frank Cooper 31:05   No, I'm more, I'm sidelined right now for variety reasons. It's tricky. You know, since I've been at BlackRock, there are a lot more restrictions on what I can do. But the thing I've been paying the closest attention to would be crypto assets, in particular, NFTs years ago. And I regret it someone told me early on, you know: Hey, yo, dip into Bitcoin. And I intended to do it, because I was like, you know, who knows where it's going to go, but I'll learn. So, I missed that opportunity, and I feel like this thing is moving so quickly, I could easily miss this opportunity. Also, personally, unless I start getting a ball, because I don't think you can, is moving so quickly. I don't think you can really understand it in a deep way unless you participate in it, you know, you can study it, you can see it, but you kind of participate in it. So, I'm trying to get there. I'm not fully there. Dan Runcie 31:52   Yeah. It's a lot. I mean, anyone that considers themselves an expert in Web 3.0 or anything like this, I always push back because the space is growing so fast. And at the broadest extent, we're all learners in this space. We're all just gaining knowledge by day. And if we learn something interesting, we'll share it with others but there are no experts in this everyone is just leveling up. And I do think that these things take time. Even as someone that studies this space for a living related to the things I do, it's still a lot, and every week, you'll see something else being like: Oh, what's that, but like anything else, you have to filter it down. And you have to prioritize where that lines up with everything else that's there.  Frank Cooper 32:31   And what are your go-to sources to keep learning and keep deepening understanding of Web 3.0 and NFTs, and the metaverse? Dan Runcie 32:38   Yeah, there's a few spots that I've gone through like there's this newsletter that I recently started checking out that has been helpful on that front, it's more of a regular digest to some of the latest things that are going on. There are some other folks in music and more broadly, and media that I've been following that have either bought things or will you know, add me to some of these telegrams or discord groups that are happening. So much of it has happened a bit informally. But you'll see these drops happen once in a while. And it's always this thing of: Okay, you want to support this person because you're cool, then and then you know, you can get the NFT that has access to that, but then you never know where it could go, right? So, there's that. And then on the other side of it, too, just looking through the headlines of some of the things that are happening, I feel like now it's almost a given just to the sources that I'm checking that it'll be so and so in many cases, a hip hop artist that's like: Oh, they just did a NFT deal with this, or they just did that or even the deal that Snoop Dogg had done and how he was able to sell last I checked, you know, it was over $44 million worth of a NFT that had this exclusive access to a lot of his what he would normally have as a VIP thing. It was part of this album that he has now that he has a death row catalog. So, all these things have been kind of like, you know, little nuggets of information that just add and build to it. So, it's definitely been a pretty wide range of things. But that's I feel like I've been able to at least try to keep up with these things. Frank Cooper 34:05   I love it. I love it. I have to look up some of those, you know, and one of my concerns around it is this going to be strange coming from someone who lives in marketing is that brands will mess this all up, you know, because you know brands are now aware of how fast it's growing, how powerful it is, how much people want to engage, you know, with NFT's and crypto and the metaverse. I think some of these brands are jumping into early, they will be better off learning and taking smaller steps and not big leaps on this one in my opinion.  Dan Runcie 34:35   That brand piece is interesting. I feel like you had said recently that you feel like brands in general just need to be more like creators. And I think if you have that type of mentality, then maybe that can help address some of these ways that you could go into an area and it may not necessarily be the best but if you have that open perspective, it'll turn out better. Frank Cooper 34:54   100%. Because the brands can play across a wide range, right? Some brands will come in and say I will be an observer; I will just observe things and share that with people. A little bit of value in that some many, many brands are still in the sponsor layer, like, you know, we will support something, and we hope we get a halo effect by just being a supporter of it. There are literally designs and billboards, you know, at games and things like that. Other brands are curators, they'll say: Hey, we'll weed out the stuff for you. And you can see that we're kind of in the game because our taste level will be evident because we are giving you the best in certain areas. But the brands I think that people will love and respect, and that feel like they're part of the community are these creative brands. They actually create things that add value to people's lives. And so, when I was very started to see it, what I love to see more of is brands come in, and they actually design experiences that help people, you know, if you're a sponsor of the NFL, for example, well, how can you make the fan experience better by creating some something like that? Instead of creating a commercial, can you create a film? You know, can you create some integration into a video game that actually will be beneficial to the players within that game? Creator brands are the ones that add that value, but to be a great creator, you also have to be a member of that community, you can't just parachute in from the outside to say, like, I understand all the nuances that are happening within this community, you have to be a member of it. You have to be active and understand the values and the rituals and the symbols and the stories and the history of that community in order for you to really add value and to be a true creator within it. Dan Runcie 36:35   So, brands can't just hop on Twitter and say: Oh, I'm pushing P that's what you’re saying. Frank Cooper 36:41   You know, somebody's going to do that, though. You know, someone's going to do it. Dan Runcie 36:45   They already have. Frank Cooper 36:47   It's terrible, though. But you know, that’s what happens, unfortunately, with too many brands. And the great thing, in my opinion, is that consumers are so smart now. It's like, they see exactly what it is, you will get no credit for you will be maligned. And so, again, I think those brands who understand what it takes to be a creator, jump into it. If you're not ready for that, you can take a step back and be a curator and say, I'm looking at the best of the best, but even then, you still need to be steeped in the culture steeped in the communities that are driving. Dan Runcie 37:18   Right. And I think at the end of the day, what happens is like when you have the people that work at those companies that actually represent that culture, that's how you have more of this. If you have the outsiders trying to embed themselves in whether it's a brand or not, there's going to be a disconnect. And I feel like that actually links back to something that you've written about recently, you had a really thoughtful Harvard business review essay, and you talked about black employees at these workplaces in a lot of these types of roles and wanting to feel safe, wanting to feel seen and wanting to feel supported. And one, I mean, I can relate to that 100%, having worked in many of these roles, and I think I appreciated your writing that given the leadership roles in place that you've been in your careers, but I'm curious, how do you feel, you know, from your perspective, as that relates to you and your experience, even now, at the CMO level roles and the C suite roles that you've had for major companies? Frank Cooper 38:18   Yeah, you know, it's really interesting to me that article, I couldn't easily have been one of the interviewees because of the experiences that they expressed in the article, not feeling safe to fully express yourself, you know, so that kind of psychological safety, you know, not being seen in the fullness of who you are, you know, and the potential that you have, and not being supported, and supported. I mean, given all the elements that can make you successful, but also being challenged to stretch into new roles. I've experienced all that. And all on the way I also had to deal with, and I think many black and brown executives and women have to deal with this. It's a perception challenge, right? Which is, can the person sitting across from who is in some way responsible for your growth within the company, see your full potential, and it's not like there's this kind of demonic attitude that they have toward you. But their subconscious may not allow them to see the goal is to see you, as a CEO, see you as a CMO. And so, you're always overcoming that perception challenge. But I've been fortunate in that in there's a long list of people that have helped me achieve despite that, there have been people who saw in me, that potential people have given me that opportunity to stretch.  And the one person who's going to really be in my life, my career for most of my life is Clarence Avant. And Clarence Avant, they, you know, they did the Netflix film on Clarence, The Black Godfather, but early on, you know, Clarence started telling me the stories of what he did, why he did it, how he approached it. And it was a sense of kind of fearlessness that he had, in the sense of, you know, that if you fail is nothing more than we're learning experience, take that and use it to your benefit, helping to communicate. So how do you actually know that someone may not see the full potential in you? How do you actually get them to overcome that? Maybe if you can solve their problems, you know, figure out what their problem is and solve it, it builds confidence, one, but also makes you closer to them. And proximity is really important in order to build these kinds of relationships where people want to help pull you up. And so, he was really central to it. But they have been a long list of people every step of the way that have been helpful to me, because they saw potential in me, and were able to overcome it. I think to do it on a systemic level, we have to rethink how we train managers, and managers are trained, you know, to be technically proficient, they're trained to lead in a way that you'll find your high potential employees, etc. But what we're talking about here is really unlocking potential in all people and to unlock potential and people that may not look like you require a different set of skills. You know, do you have a skill of humble inquiry? Do you don't ask questions in a way that actually motivates people to connect with you? You know, can you practice intense listening? You know, are you listening in a way where you really understand what that person is saying, even though the language may be different than maybe shrouded in euphemisms? That's the training that needs to happen with managers to really break through this and unlock the potential in people that may not look like though. And so, I'm optimistic, but we have a long way to go. Dan Runcie 41:26   That's real, the way that things are communicated makes such a big difference. And you bring it up Clarence Avant, I've never met him personally. But even just watching through that documentary, you can just see that vibe of how he was and how he related. There wasn't this like, awe, the factor that he had going into rooms. It was like: Yeah, you know, I talked to Bill Clinton, and I just let him know how it was like, there was no pause in any of that. And you just saw that carry through and through. Frank Cooper 41:53   You know, he told me, he said: Hey, Frank, look, I'm from North Carolina. And he says he's from Greensboro base from climates. And let's go ahead, it's like, it's adjacent to Greensboro. And he said: I didn't know what was going on. He said, but early in my career, Joe Glaser told me, you know, I want you to go in, and I want you to have this conversation with this head of the music label, and you're going to manage this artist, and he's like, you know, I don't know how to do this. You know, Joe says something to be said that stuck with them for the rest of his life. He said, let me just say this: Every person that you're talking to, they wake up in the morning, they shower, brush their teeth, put up put on their pants, or shoes, whatever. They're just like you, there's nothing special about them beyond the fact that they're another human being, and just relate to them in that way. And you're going to be fine. And that's how he approaches it. So, he's not, it's fascinating, he's not in awe. But he's also not looking down upon anyone. It's like, I'm looking at you eye to eye, let's figure out how we connect with you about how we can make something happen. It's a remarkable skill. And I believe that's what's carried up through all these years. Dan Runcie 42:57   Yeah, I would agree with that, for sure. And we're getting to the tail end here. And I'm sure that as you mentioned, you've had a lot of people that have, you know, seen things in you that were able to help get you to the place you're into your career. Clarence Avant, you know, is one of those folks that gave you great advice. What's another piece of advice that you've gotten in your career that really stuck with you that still resonates today? Frank Cooper 43:17   Well, the best, the best piece of advice I had was early in my career, and I was just thinking as a second-year law school student, and I was with a litigation partner. And what he told me was that I told him, I want to do practice law and teach law for all these reasons. And he said: Okay, fine, fine, fine, whatever. But let me just say one thing that after practicing for 20 years, I've been in public practice and private practice, and I've seen a lot of people who are successful, and those who have not succeeded. And I'll tell you, the one thing that you have to remember is that if you can connect your personal interests with your professional interests, the thing that energizes you in life, you know, that gives you a sense of fulfillment and connect that with your personal interest, you will not only do well, you'll actually have this deep sense of fulfillment. He said: If you don't do it, I think you'll still be successful, superficially, but you'll watch your personal interest go to the wayside. And so that actually sent me on this path of what we now call purpose of this path of discovering life. So, what am I good at? What do I love to do? And what am I good at? And how can I contribute to something bigger than myself? And that was, it was a deep introspective process, but I came out of it, having a sense of what I love to do, what I'm good at, how it contributes to the world, and I've applied it's kind of been my compass, every place that I've been, and it's what impart has allowed me to move from industry to industry at a very high level, you know, from entertainment to technology to consumer goods and financial services. That sense of purpose has stuck with me the entire way. Dan Runcie 44:49   That's real. That's real. And that's a good note to close on with this. I mean, normally my last question is your anything you want to plug and let the Trapital audience know about, but I think you did it right there. Oh, it's perfect. Well, Frank, no, this was a pleasure. I really appreciate you coming on. And I feel like we'll have to may have to check it again with you at some point, we'll see what the next few Super Bowl lineups look like. And then we could do a postgame after that. Frank Cooper 45:15   Let's do it every year. I'd love to do it. Dan Runcie 45:18   That'd be great. Okay, awesome. Frank Cooper 45:19 Thanks, man.  Dan Runcie 45:21   Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week Thu, 03 Mar 2022 17:00:00 -0000 Frank Cooper III Brokered Beyonce-Pepsi’s $50 Million Deal. Here’s Where He Sees Industry Going Next full 117 Dan Runcie Take a quick look at Frank Cooper’s resume and you might think, “what HASN’T he done?” He’s both Berkeley- and Harvard-educated. Coming out of school, Frank cut his teeth with two iconic labels — Motown Records and Def Jam. And most recently, he’s been Chief Marketing Officer for world-renown brands like Pepsi, BlackRock, and breaking news, he just took the same role with VISA.   But if you ask Frank, his early years inside the music industry formed the backbone of his illustrious career. It’s during this time period where Frank developed cultural aptitude — and specifically, how to connect larger societal needs with brands he’s led.  Frank’s unique pedigree that spans music, entertainment, and finance makes his views on business all the more fascinating. And believe me, Frank has a lot of thoughts about today’s ever-changing music landscape — whether it’s in the inflow of capital or the ripples that Web 3.0 will create. Here’s all the talking points Frank and I covered on today’s episode of Trapital: Episode Highlights [2:12] How Working In The Music Industry Laid The Foundation For Frank’s Career [6:37] Differences Between Hip Hop and Grunge Rock In The Mid ‘90s [8:15] How O.G. Artists “Set The Table” For Today’s Artist Entrepreneurs  [11:56] How Frank Put Together Beyoncé and Pepsi $50 Million Deal  [15:45] Frank Reviews The Latest Super Bowl Halftime Show (And Names The Best One Of All Time) [20:35] Helping Blackrock Create A New Purpose Statement Beyond Purely Profit [23:48] How The Big Short Movie Convinced Frank To Join The Financial Industry  [26:22] Frank’s Thoughts About NFTs, Metaverse, And Web 3.0 [29:37] Early Tech Adoption Among Hip-Hop Artists Over The Years [31:05] Does Frank Own Anything In His Digital Wallet? [34:05] Frank Thinks Some Brands Are Too Early To Web 3.0 [37:18] Frank’s Harvard Business Review About Diversity In The Workplace [38:18] Clarence Avant’s Influence On Frank’s Career [43:17] What’s One Of The Best Pieces Of Advice Frank Has Ever Received? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Frank Cooper III     Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands ______________ Frank Cooper 0:00   I'm actually not a big believer in traditional financial literacy by itself. I think all the research I've seen suggests that it doesn't change behavior because it's too academic, it's filled with jargon, it's long-form, you know? People's eyes glaze over when you're having the conversation, but I do believe that financial education is absolutely critical. Dan Runcie 0:25   Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Frank Cooper, who is just named the new Chief Marketing Officer at Visa. Frank and I recorded this episode before the announcement, so we didn't talk about it here. But I was glad to have Frank on because his experience has been so deep in entertainment, in branding and in marketing. Dating back to his time as an executive at Motown, Def Jam, and then more recently, his time with Pepsi, Buzzfeed and BlackRock. And when you think about his career, it is the perfect combination of understanding brands, what they can learn from the entertainment space and how he's brought that to each sector, which is why it was so relevant to have him on this podcast. We talked about some of the deals he had done with Beyonce and other major artists. We also talked about broader trends with marketing, brands, what they can learn from creators, why financial literacy is so important for Frank and a whole lot more. Had a great time talking with him. Hope you enjoy this one. Here's my chat with Frank Cooper. All right, today, we got Frank Cooper with us, who is a longtime marketing executive, currently CMO at BlackRock, but you started your career in the music industry, which I always love to see. So, it will be great to start there with you first, welcome. It's great to have you.  Frank Cooper 2:11   Thanks, Dan. Great to be here. Dan Runcie 2:12   Yeah, it'd be great to start off with the music career piece of it, because you worked at Motown and you worked at Def Jam as well. And you worked at both of those labels at pretty influential times for them. What stands out most to you from that time? What are you most proud of? Frank Cooper 2:26   Wow! Well, you know, first of all, it's funny because people say you came from the music industry, how are you connecting this to what you're doing, whether that was at PepsiCo, or here at BlackRock, and I got to tell you, those are some of the most foundational experiences that have shaped pretty much everything that I've done since. And when I think back to Motown, Motown was, was interesting, because, you know, Motown early on was all about assimilation, right? It's about taking black culture and cultivating it in such a way that it can appeal broadly. You know, and how the music sounds, the way they walk, the way they talk, etc. It gave you Smokey Robinson, Diana Ross, The Jackson 5, and Marvin Gaye. And that worked really well.  In the 90s, it became more about how to evolve that. And so, I thought it was a really interesting juncture. And I was really excited to be there because, you know, at that time, people didn't really want to talk about pure assimilation. They want to be authentic to themselves. And so how do you take that Motown ethos and make it work within, you know, the culture of that time. And, you know, at the time we had Boyz II Men, ABC, and Queen Latifah, and it was fascinating to see that I think we're still at that juncture where R&B still trying to find its place, honestly, and we can talk more about that. But I think Motown at that time became a symbol for how to evolve RMB in a way that fit the culture of the day. Def Jam was completely the opposite. And people look back at it. People today think it was inevitable, they think, you know, hip hop's the number one genre across the world and it seems inevitable, but at the time, some people were wondering whether hip hop at the last, you know, there's: Hey, is this a fad or not? And what I loved about it was that those who were in that game, those were at Def Jam at the time; you understood that this was not just about the music, it's about the deep cultural sensibility that actually propelled that whole genre, you know. Doing it on your own, operating outside of the mainstream, overcoming struggle, and teaching people how to overcome struggle. And so, for me, that became like the most invigorating part of being there Def Jam, and you just saw artists come through that at the time were just creating incredible momentum. You know, we had the month of the man with Method Man and Redman, now we had Jay-Z come through Kanye, you know, and DMX. And it was just this massive kind of momentum that kept building and it all for me at least reinforced this idea of them at their best. They're teaching people how to overcome struggle. And by the mid-90s, what I thought was the most interesting law and that's probably why they in the history of music, one of the more interesting time periods because you had the flannel shirts up in Seattle, the grunge movement happening. And that was had a lot of momentum, and you had hip hop, and you look at the trajectory of those two genres; they went completely in the opposite direction. And grunge was purely about suburban angst, you know, you know, like: Oh, my God, you know, I don't have meaning in you know, what do I do? And I'm not trying to belittle it, but that's kind of where the center of gravity was. And meanwhile hip hop I was like, how do we win, despite the fact that the mainstream has their foot out trying to trip us up? How do we win? How do we get past it? How do we overcome struggle? How do we do it on our own? And to me, that's what I remember more than anything else. And then finally, the artists that I've connected with the most, were the ones that actually embraced that the most, I loved Chuck D and Public Enemy, you know, and took the Public enemy to me, you know, representative, probably the more extreme version of that. I love Jay-Z, and how can you not love Jay-Z and what he's accomplished? And then some people may, you know, Kanye West, Kanye is Kanye. But Kanye, to me is genius. Because Kanye was able to change our sensibility of what hip hop could be, you know, at that time. He was using music sources that others weren't using, he was using voice in a different way. The lyrics were not as combative as some others, they gave expanded the universal what was possible in hip hop. And I think Kanye played a central role in that. And so, I really have a lot of respect for him and what he did at that time for Def Jam, and I've always carried it with me. Dan Runcie 6:37   That piece about the artists specifically in the grunge era and in hip hop at that same time, I think it's so key because when people talk a lot about Gen X and Generation X, I think the first thought that may go to people's minds is not just grunge with thinking of the image of Kurt Cobain, or you know, something a Billy Corgan from The Smashing Pumpkins, or one of those in all of what they embodied. But on the other side of that ice cube, Dre and Snoop Dogg are also Gen X and have a very different vibe in terms of what they wanted their music to represent. Not that angst isn't something that they didn't have in their young 20s as well. But it was a very different way of communicating their reality, their experience, and I think people don't always necessarily connect that when they talk about Gen X, at least it in a mainstream way.  Frank Cooper 7:27   No, Dan, I think that’s exactly right. And, and you know, what's fascinating is that they both were, both those genres, were tackling the same problem, right? They both looked out and said: Man, these traditional institutions are kind of failing us. I can't rely on them as much as I used to. The definition of success that's been put out there, that's something that I adhere to. They were fighting against the same things, but they took two different paths. And I personally believe that the reason, one of the reasons why hip hop prevailed in that is because it helped you to move forward, you know. If you were, it was invigorating, it would inspire you to try to move forward, not to wallow in any kind of sadness. And I think there's value in that too. But it was about: Okay, it is what it is. Now, how do we move forward? Yeah, make it happen on your own. And they did it not only in the lyrics, they did it in the entirety of their behavior. You know, that's when you started to see the artists become entrepreneurs, you started to see them actually extend their brand and to other businesses. And they built an enterprise, each of these ones of those that were successful to build an enterprise based on the music. And that, to me has become the blueprint, a blueprint for how artists are thinking about it today. Even if you fast forward to this current line. I've never seen this much money flow into music, you know, investors, now buying out catalogs, and we're part of that too, we announce a recent partnership with influence media, Lylette Pisarro and René McLean. But I've never seen this much money flow into music. But to me, it's an extension of what hip hop started, which is there is no inauthenticity in. You're getting paid, you can get paid, you can cash a check, you can extend your business in a variety of ways, and still remain true to yourself. And I think many people today who are reaping the benefits of that should look back to the early days of hip hop and fake and thank those artists.  Dan Runcie 9:21   And I think that speaks a lot to your career as well. Because you were able to take your experience. You saw the potential of what these artists could do with their brands. And then you were able to work with a lot of the brands themselves to help bring those artists to the forefront and be: Hey, you can help tell the story for this brand. We can help augment not just what you're doing, but help this brand do it as well. And especially in that time in the 2000s- 2010s, we started to see more, and more that you're at the forefront for so much of that. Frank Cooper 9:50   Yeah, you know, one thing that always bothered me when I saw celebrity sponsorships and endorsements and advertisements, it was purely transactional. People would say, you know: I'll write a check to these artists and put them in my commercial. And we'll have the most beautiful drink shot and this commercial, they're like: Oh, closer, closer, closer here, beautiful. We've captured it, we won. But most fans and consumers, they understand that game. And they're like: You know what, I'm glad that ours cut that check, beautiful thing, and I'm happy for that. But I don't believe there's any real connection between that artist and the brand or that product. And therefore, that was completely wasted money. And so, the angle that I took when I took it is that I knew that virtually every celebrity that I've ever met, they all have their own aspirations. They want to do certain things that they cannot do within their current industries, there's always an artist, a filmmaker who wants to make a certain kind of film that they can't make. There’s an artist that wants to do a certain song or put it out in a certain way that they can't do, or they want to extend into new areas. And so, I spent most of my time trying to understand: What are their aspirations? What are they trying to accomplish that they can't accomplish to their own ecosystem? And found that connection point to what we wanted to do. And to me that was the unlock, is like, if I can find that shared aspiration, then I can start to express shared values, shared experiences, a shared worldview that was true. And to me, if you can capture that you don't always win on it. But if you can capture that, that's gold. And I tried to do that across, you know, as many artists as I could. Dan Runcie 11:25   Yeah. And I think even that breakdown that you had, you're seeing more of the good examples. Now just seeing some of the great deals that come through, you're still seeing some of the ones that you may shake your head out, whether it's the Instagram posts, or they're just getting a check for something. But in general, you're starting to see more of the long-term value add. And I feel like the Beyonce deal that you had done with Pepsi specifically, that feels like one that falls more in line with there's a longer-term opportunity here to really highlight and tell that story. Frank Cooper 11:56   Yeah, you know, it's funny, because when I first started having the conversations with Beyonce and her team, I was like: Okay, this is a long shot, you know. Beyonce was very particular, and rightly, and, you know, reluctant to do anything that didn't fit what she truly believed and didn't fit her values. So, I spent a lot of time with the team trying to understand what they wanted to accomplish. And you know, her part of her genius, I think she's genius on many levels, but part of it is, she understood that she wanted to release things in ways that artists have not done before. And she wanted to create content that complemented the music in ways that artists have not done before, like a visual album. And so, we can help with it, you know, we can help launch the album, we've got millions of packages that are going out every day. And so, what if we did a bespoke design in those packages, and it relates to your album. What if we actually helped fund that visual album. What if we helped put your single out, but most important what if you got in front of 120 million people in the Super Bowl halftime, and then release something after that, you know, it became the most powerful ad possible for you to drive sales of your album. And that's really what made the connection because, you know, if I went to Beyonce in our team and said: Here's a piece of paper, I'm going to slip it across the table to you, and there's a number on here that should make you fall out and excitement. I still would not have considered that there would never have happened, there was no doubt in my mind, there was no amount of money alone that would get convinced her to do it. But it was understanding what she was trying to accomplish and how we could participate in that in a way that benefited both of us. And so that's one for me, one of the most extraordinary deals that I've been involved in, but also one of the most extraordinary experiences because I've learned in part why she is so good. And it was driving me crazy at the time. But she was 100%, right? You know we did, we did a commercial. And what I didn't realize is that, but you look at the commercial and say: Hey, make some edits here, there. She looked at it herself, frame by frame. And then she broke down the arc. And then she, I mean, she was into it and intense. And what I realized is not just Beyonce; with other artists, I’ve seen it with Snoop, you know, Nicki Minaj, I’ve seen it with a wide range of artists is that they put it in, they put the work in. It's not like they say: I'm this brilliant artist, and I'm going to come in and just kind of still use my brilliance and move on. They actually put in the time, and they're focused and intense. And they want to make sure it is the best product they can put out no matter what they're putting out. Dan Runcie 14:31   Yeah, with her specifically, you've seen that with each album. I mean, it's like find some way to just level up and continue to do that. And even thinking back to that deal and from the consumer perspective, just seeing how everything lined up. I mean, she put the lights out after the show at that Super Bowl, right? It was something else. But the one piece I did want to clarify with that. So, if the Super Bowl wasn't in the conversation, is it fair to assume that all that deal wouldn't have worked that needed to be if they'd put it over the edge? Frank Cooper 15:02   No, no, it would have worked in either way, because I think the Super Bowl definitely contributed to it. Because how many times you're going to have a simultaneous audience of 100 million-plus people watching something. But there were enough other things that she really wanted to do that we could help on. And that didn't involve just the check, you know, the infrastructure of Pepsi at the time, it could be helpful in so many different ways. And I think what's the collection of all those things together, pull the Super Bowl out, I would have added something else that it was done a full-length film together something, you know, but there would have been something that would meet her desire to break the boundaries of what has been done before, and that PepsiCo could actually help her deliver.  Dan Runcie 15:45   Talking about the Super Bowl. What did you think about the show that we had this past year with Dre, Snoop and 50 Cent, Kendrick, Marry? Frank Cooper 15:53   So, man, I was almost in tears in a way because, you know, I am. So before I left PepsiCo, I renegotiated a 10 year deal with a couple of billion dollars. And I got to know some of the owners, definitely got to know the NFL headquarters very well. And I thought I would never see that day where you had that lineup of artists, you know, from Dre to Snoop to Kendrick to Mary J. Blige, Eminem, and 50 Cent, but you would have never seen that day. But more importantly, I thought I would never see it presented in such an authentic way. They didn't tone down the visuals. And I think it was the absolute best performance I've ever seen, I don't think was the best performance I've ever seen overall, but the collection of that effort, and the collection of the artists and the energy and the visual presentations. For me, this is, this was a seminal moment that I think we should all remember because it will open up the doors for many other artists to come. And what I realized is that they knew it too because you could see, by the way, they were very careful what they did and made sure that they stay within certain bounds. The only person who did something semi-controversial was Eminem, right? And when he nailed it, this to me was a really powerful moment, I thought I would never see it. And I hope that it's not a one-off. You know, I hope that you know, as we see future NFL productions as well as the Super Bowl that we see more black artists, and that we see hip hop, in particular, play a more central role. Dan Runcie 17:20   I agree. I think that this one specifically helped almost if you look back to the one, they had in Atlanta, and I feel like there's a lot of talks there about why could've represented Atlanta's soul, R&B, hip hop vibes that, you know, are so tremendous to that city, and then a show that didn't end up showing that 100%. And I feel like: Okay, we have this here. And if you just look at the slide, there are so many cities coming up where you could see something similar for these types of artists, so that that could be special. Frank Cooper 17:51   Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, so disappointing when they happen in Atlanta. It's like, wait a minute, are you kidding me? Atlanta is all about music. I can lead. Dan Runcie 18:00   It's like, I mean, Maroon Five definitely deserves to be on that stage. I mean, they're one of the biggest groups of the past two decades, but from a time in place, and all the things lining up. It was like, come on. Yeah, I know. And they got out what do you got? We got Big Boy, and almost as like a, you know, afterthought to be like: Okay, here, we're hearing the chatter. Let's see who we could get for this one. But that's it. Frank Cooper 18:25   Let's give him half a second, don’t look too long, you know, this probably, they will never let me program it. Because I would have gone back, I would have dug in the crates a bit. I would say, you know, let's go to the Goodie Mob. All right, let's bring them back. But you could also they could just soften it up. I mean, you know, Toni Braxton, you know, the whole of face lineup from a certain era could have been on their. Ludacris, He's a mainstream star now. There's so much they could have done. And hopefully, they saw through this, that it was a lost opportunity. And I think they're seeing what's happening on social media from this last Super Bowl, that it's a powerful force that they can tap into, in a way that actually improves the NFL brand. And so, I think the fear was, in some way, this is going to alienate those who are not on the coast, you know, the Midwest. But I hope the realization is now that hip hop is not isolated to the coast. You know, hip hop is foundational across every geographic territory today. Dan Runcie 19:25   Right. And especially with this one, too. You had Eminem, who Midwest, one of the biggest artists of the past, you know, a couple of decades to so we'll see. I know you mentioned that this was the best one. Which one do you get the number one for Super Bowl? Frank Cooper 19:41   Well, you know, for me, the one that was most special for me was Prince. And when he did Purple Rain, and it started to rain, it's like a whole thing was magical. It was incredible. Dan Runcie 19:51   It was poetic. It was like you couldn't script this. It was beautiful. Shifting gears, a bit. Want to talk a bit more about your role and your experience right now at Blackrock. You joined a few years ago, and it was a similar type of role, given the CMO position that you've had, you've had other companies, but definitely a different type of industry and a different type of sector that you had worked in up to that point. But in hearing you in other interviews and things you've talked about, trying to bring financial literacy and elevate that to the discussion has been an important piece of that. So, it'd be great to hear a little bit more about what that's been like for you since you've been there and how that has taken shape. Frank Cooper 20:35   Yeah, you know, one of the things that I don't know if this is a risk or not, but at least one of the things I did when I first came in was trying to make, trying to convince the leadership of Blackrock that it needed to have a sense of purpose that wouldn’t be on profits, that wouldn't be on money. Working closely with a bunch of other people, we were successful in doing that. And part of that purpose statement that we ended up with, included this idea of financial inclusion, we help more and more people experience financial well-being. And so, getting that built into the core of a company where we say, hey, that's our ultimate goal. Yes, money and profits are an outcome that we have to have to succeed. But our ultimate goal is to help more and more people experience financial well-being. So, by having financial inclusion built into it, that was a huge step. But I mentioned earlier, that music helped me quite a bit. And the part that helped me is that I looked at culture first, like what is happening in culture that is urgent and important, and that our industry can address.  One of the things that's happening in culture, for sure, and you can see it all over the world is that more people are feeling like they're excluded from the opportunities for economic mobility, that they don't believe the system is working in their favor, they don't have access to improve their own prosperity. And so, you know, for me, you take that cultural lens and work back to the industry of questions, what can we do to improve that? I'm actually not a big believer in traditional financial literacy by itself. I think all the research I've seen, suggests that it doesn't change behavior because it's too academic, it’s filled with jargon, it's long-form, you know, people's eyes glaze over when you're having the conversation. But I do believe that financial education is absolutely critical. So, what I've started to do is think about what are the elements that can help people move forward and become investors. So, it's increasing their savings. And I think it's four things I think, is knowledge, skills, community, and access. And so, if you go to Reddit, or one of the trending, one of the most substantial subreddit threads, or at least around financial education. People want to know, like, give me the information, but also helped me build the skills, and then give me a community, it gives me some support. And all I need after that is some access, make it easier for me to come in, and make it safe for me to try. And so that's what I've been focused on is really trying to figure out how to improve the knowledge, skills, community, and access so that people have a better shot at increasing their own sense of prosperity. Dan Runcie 23:11   Yeah. And from the work you've done so far, I feel like I could see those connections, you started the Tik Tok page. I've been posting more they're trying to connect a bit more with not just the younger generation, but with being able to break those things down. And I know another thing that you had said, once you really liked how a movie like The Big Short was able to help boil these principles down and communicate in a way to be like: Hey, here it is, these concepts aren't as complex as they may always seem, but let's do it in layman's terms. And I feel like I could see elements of that with some of the content that you've all put out recently. Frank Cooper 23:48   Yeah, you know, one of the things that convinced me that I should come into BlackRock and move over to financial services was watching that film The Big Short, which is kind of ironic, right? Because it was not a favorable view of the financial services industry. Dan Runcie 24:02   A lot of people may watch that movie and not want to come work at BlackRock. Frank Cooper 24:08   But what stuck with me is like, you know, a lot of friends who were in investment, and I used to ask him these questions like: What's this thing called a credit default swap? And he would explain it to me, and I'm like: I think I'm fairly smart. I have no idea what you're talking about, like, you know, and I just give up. When I saw The Big Short, I saw those interstitials. And you saw Selena in the club, you know, or the late Anthony Bourdain in the restaurant, or Margie in the tub of champagne. They explained those concepts in really simple terms that anyone can understand. And for me, that was like an awakening was like: You know what? It's not that complicated really. It's just that some people are making it complicated. What if we can actually deliver it in ways that people like to learn today, you know, short-form, jargon-free, highly visual with relatable role models. Man, that could be like a really fascinating thing because then suddenly people could start to take steps forward and become part of the benefits of saving and investing. And so, it was a really defining moment for me. And I’ve taken that logic, and I'm trying to apply it today, you know, in Tik Tok, already, there's already a movement happening on Tick Tock, I mean, if you look at #moneytalk, you know, it's one of the top hashtags already, but it is, in my mind the perfect format for what I'm talking about short-form, highly visual, jargon-free and relatable role models. And, you know, I'm excited we've just launched. So, it's really early days, but I'm really excited about the potential of that platform and other platforms to find a crack in the code on financial education and financial literacy, and financial inclusion. But I think that is the pathway for our own sense of purpose of including more people the benefits of investing. Dan Runcie 25:55   Definitely. Yeah, I mean, it's consuming so much attention and has so much mindshare over a generation, you have to be where they're at. I'm curious if there are other channels, are there other areas that you're pursuing, or you're considering doing especially this next year. I feel like things are moving so fast with everything happening, whether it's Web 3.0 or the metaverse. There could be endless opportunities to distill and communicate this type of information. Frank Cooper 26:22   Yeah, well, that's such a difficult question. Because, you know, I'm always trying to figure out where things are moving next, and in time it in a way where it can have an impact because I've also learned the hard way, that being too early is the same as being too late. The impact really won't hit you, or abroad, enough people, set of people in the way that you want. And so, when I look at timing and change, I think we have an opportunity in a long-form video, you know, I think we could do things like a documentary film that will be really interesting and helpful, and not just kind of the shilling of the brand or the company. But this area of NFTs and the metaverse is we're at the height of the hype cycle right now. So, we got to get through that. And no one knows exactly how it's going to take shape. But there's a few things we do know. We do know that people want to have the experience of being in an immersive environment. Video games have been doing it for a long time now. And we saw that ship years ago and video games. I don't remember earlier in the video games used to give different tools and weapons and other things that people could use within the game as you started to level up. They eliminated that for variety reasons, including they thought it was unfair terms of pure gameplay, but they had shifted from that to accessories. And so, once you shift to the accessories in the virtual world like a video game, you've entered the metaverse in a way. It's not as immersive as a 3d environment necessarily, but you're entering the metaverse because now you have these accessories. And so, imagine if you're in a virtual world, and these virtual worlds are connected, and you have some limited-edition Nike shoes, or you have some other crypto collectible, that to me is the direction is going, what we can do is that there's some form of exchange that has to happen in these environments. And we can be part of that exchange number one, but then when you look at something like Decentraland, where people could buy a plot of virtual land and build what they want on it, and people can invest and people can start to save suddenly in that virtual world this idea of financial services, investing, asset allocation becomes really interesting. And I think we have an opportunity to step in there in a way that's still authentic, but it also can deliver real value to people who are experiencing those virtual environments. So, I'm very excited about the metaverse, I'm excited about NFTs within the metaverse in particular, in the role that financial services can play. Dan Runcie 28:52   Yeah, I agree. It's been fascinating to see how much has changed in the past six months, you know, year plus at this point. But it's also been interesting to see more and more celebrities and especially folks in hip hop that are pushing it themselves or are changing their social avatars to whether it's board apes or some other assets that they have. So, it's really great to see those folks be ahead of the curve as well on a thing like this. Because as we both know, if you're able to have them to set the direction and get their audience bought in, there could be a lot of movement, not just with, you know, who gets bought in but who gets bought in early that could eventually set the tone for what the landscape looks like, looks like as it matures. Frank Cooper 29:37   Yeah. And you know, I've always been, I'm happy to see that black artists in particular, but hip hop artists in general, are now are getting credit for leading being one of the leaders within technology. I think it's always happened when ringtones are out, they were leaders of it. When mobile phones and mobile communications were out there were leaders of that. When Twitter launched Black Twitter was the hottest thing on the platform. But it was largely unrecognized. Now it's being recognized. And I'm also sensing a slight mindset shift among some of these artists. So, you take that piece of it, but also this notion that I can be a pure consumer. And it's been or I can build wealth. And you know, we saw seeds of that even in Jay-Z’s 444 album, but even when I see someone like Rick Ross come off the plane to say: Hey, I just did a set for someone I got X amount of check, am I going to go and buy another gold chain? I'm going to invest in this. It is a mindset shift in terms of what success looks like, and all that wealth plays within it. And so, with the convergence of those two things, I think that we're entering a space that none of us know exactly how it's going to play out, but a space where new opportunities are going to come both for artists, but also for entrepreneurs. And just for people who have traditionally been excluded, you know, from the benefits of investing and saving and wealth in general. Dan Runcie 30:57   What is your involvement in this space look like? Have you gotten deep into it with yourself, whether it's your own wallets or things that you've been tapping into? Frank Cooper 31:05   No, I'm more, I'm sidelined right now for variety reasons. It's tricky. You know, since I've been at BlackRock, there are a lot more restrictions on what I can do. But the thing I've been paying the closest attention to would be crypto assets, in particular, NFTs years ago. And I regret it someone told me early on, you know: Hey, yo, dip into Bitcoin. And I intended to do it, because I was like, you know, who knows where it's going to go, but I'll learn. So, I missed that opportunity, and I feel like this thing is moving so quickly, I could easily miss this opportunity. Also, personally, unless I start getting a ball, because I don't think you can, is moving so quickly. I don't think you can really understand it in a deep way unless you participate in it, you know, you can study it, you can see it, but you kind of participate in it. So, I'm trying to get there. I'm not fully there. Dan Runcie 31:52   Yeah. It's a lot. I mean, anyone that considers themselves an expert in Web 3.0 or anything like this, I always push back because the space is growing so fast. And at the broadest extent, we're all learners in this space. We're all just gaining knowledge by day. And if we learn something interesting, we'll share it with others but there are no experts in this everyone is just leveling up. And I do think that these things take time. Even as someone that studies this space for a living related to the things I do, it's still a lot, and every week, you'll see something else being like: Oh, what's that, but like anything else, you have to filter it down. And you have to prioritize where that lines up with everything else that's there.  Frank Cooper 32:31   And what are your go-to sources to keep learning and keep deepening understanding of Web 3.0 and NFTs, and the metaverse? Dan Runcie 32:38   Yeah, there's a few spots that I've gone through like there's this newsletter that I recently started checking out that has been helpful on that front, it's more of a regular digest to some of the latest things that are going on. There are some other folks in music and more broadly, and media that I've been following that have either bought things or will you know, add me to some of these telegrams or discord groups that are happening. So much of it has happened a bit informally. But you'll see these drops happen once in a while. And it's always this thing of: Okay, you want to support this person because you're cool, then and then you know, you can get the NFT that has access to that, but then you never know where it could go, right? So, there's that. And then on the other side of it, too, just looking through the headlines of some of the things that are happening, I feel like now it's almost a given just to the sources that I'm checking that it'll be so and so in many cases, a hip hop artist that's like: Oh, they just did a NFT deal with this, or they just did that or even the deal that Snoop Dogg had done and how he was able to sell last I checked, you know, it was over $44 million worth of a NFT that had this exclusive access to a lot of his what he would normally have as a VIP thing. It was part of this album that he has now that he has a death row catalog. So, all these things have been kind of like, you know, little nuggets of information that just add and build to it. So, it's definitely been a pretty wide range of things. But that's I feel like I've been able to at least try to keep up with these things. Frank Cooper 34:05   I love it. I love it. I have to look up some of those, you know, and one of my concerns around it is this going to be strange coming from someone who lives in marketing is that brands will mess this all up, you know, because you know brands are now aware of how fast it's growing, how powerful it is, how much people want to engage, you know, with NFT's and crypto and the metaverse. I think some of these brands are jumping into early, they will be better off learning and taking smaller steps and not big leaps on this one in my opinion.  Dan Runcie 34:35   That brand piece is interesting. I feel like you had said recently that you feel like brands in general just need to be more like creators. And I think if you have that type of mentality, then maybe that can help address some of these ways that you could go into an area and it may not necessarily be the best but if you have that open perspective, it'll turn out better. Frank Cooper 34:54   100%. Because the brands can play across a wide range, right? Some brands will come in and say I will be an observer; I will just observe things and share that with people. A little bit of value in that some many, many brands are still in the sponsor layer, like, you know, we will support something, and we hope we get a halo effect by just being a supporter of it. There are literally designs and billboards, you know, at games and things like that. Other brands are curators, they'll say: Hey, we'll weed out the stuff for you. And you can see that we're kind of in the game because our taste level will be evident because we are giving you the best in certain areas. But the brands I think that people will love and respect, and that feel like they're part of the community are these creative brands. They actually create things that add value to people's lives. And so, when I was very started to see it, what I love to see more of is brands come in, and they actually design experiences that help people, you know, if you're a sponsor of the NFL, for example, well, how can you make the fan experience better by creating some something like that? Instead of creating a commercial, can you create a film? You know, can you create some integration into a video game that actually will be beneficial to the players within that game? Creator brands are the ones that add that value, but to be a great creator, you also have to be a member of that community, you can't just parachute in from the outside to say, like, I understand all the nuances that are happening within this community, you have to be a member of it. You have to be active and understand the values and the rituals and the symbols and the stories and the history of that community in order for you to really add value and to be a true creator within it. Dan Runcie 36:35   So, brands can't just hop on Twitter and say: Oh, I'm pushing P that's what you’re saying. Frank Cooper 36:41   You know, somebody's going to do that, though. You know, someone's going to do it. Dan Runcie 36:45   They already have. Frank Cooper 36:47   It's terrible, though. But you know, that’s what happens, unfortunately, with too many brands. And the great thing, in my opinion, is that consumers are so smart now. It's like, they see exactly what it is, you will get no credit for you will be maligned. And so, again, I think those brands who understand what it takes to be a creator, jump into it. If you're not ready for that, you can take a step back and be a curator and say, I'm looking at the best of the best, but even then, you still need to be steeped in the culture steeped in the communities that are driving. Dan Runcie 37:18   Right. And I think at the end of the day, what happens is like when you have the people that work at those companies that actually represent that culture, that's how you have more of this. If you have the outsiders trying to embed themselves in whether it's a brand or not, there's going to be a disconnect. And I feel like that actually links back to something that you've written about recently, you had a really thoughtful Harvard business review essay, and you talked about black employees at these workplaces in a lot of these types of roles and wanting to feel safe, wanting to feel seen and wanting to feel supported. And one, I mean, I can relate to that 100%, having worked in many of these roles, and I think I appreciated your writing that given the leadership roles in place that you've been in your careers, but I'm curious, how do you feel, you know, from your perspective, as that relates to you and your experience, even now, at the CMO level roles and the C suite roles that you've had for major companies? Frank Cooper 38:18   Yeah, you know, it's really interesting to me that article, I couldn't easily have been one of the interviewees because of the experiences that they expressed in the article, not feeling safe to fully express yourself, you know, so that kind of psychological safety, you know, not being seen in the fullness of who you are, you know, and the potential that you have, and not being supported, and supported. I mean, given all the elements that can make you successful, but also being challenged to stretch into new roles. I've experienced all that. And all on the way I also had to deal with, and I think many black and brown executives and women have to deal with this. It's a perception challenge, right? Which is, can the person sitting across from who is in some way responsible for your growth within the company, see your full potential, and it's not like there's this kind of demonic attitude that they have toward you. But their subconscious may not allow them to see the goal is to see you, as a CEO, see you as a CMO. And so, you're always overcoming that perception challenge. But I've been fortunate in that in there's a long list of people that have helped me achieve despite that, there have been people who saw in me, that potential people have given me that opportunity to stretch.  And the one person who's going to really be in my life, my career for most of my life is Clarence Avant. And Clarence Avant, they, you know, they did the Netflix film on Clarence, The Black Godfather, but early on, you know, Clarence started telling me the stories of what he did, why he did it, how he approached it. And it was a sense of kind of fearlessness that he had, in the sense of, you know, that if you fail is nothing more than we're learning experience, take that and use it to your benefit, helping to communicate. So how do you actually know that someone may not see the full potential in you? How do you actually get them to overcome that? Maybe if you can solve their problems, you know, figure out what their problem is and solve it, it builds confidence, one, but also makes you closer to them. And proximity is really important in order to build these kinds of relationships where people want to help pull you up. And so, he was really central to it. But they have been a long list of people every step of the way that have been helpful to me, because they saw potential in me, and were able to overcome it. I think to do it on a systemic level, we have to rethink how we train managers, and managers are trained, you know, to be technically proficient, they're trained to lead in a way that you'll find your high potential employees, etc. But what we're talking about here is really unlocking potential in all people and to unlock potential and people that may not look like you require a different set of skills. You know, do you have a skill of humble inquiry? Do you don't ask questions in a way that actually motivates people to connect with you? You know, can you practice intense listening? You know, are you listening in a way where you really understand what that person is saying, even though the language may be different than maybe shrouded in euphemisms? That's the training that needs to happen with managers to really break through this and unlock the potential in people that may not look like though. And so, I'm optimistic, but we have a long way to go. Dan Runcie 41:26   That's real, the way that things are communicated makes such a big difference. And you bring it up Clarence Avant, I've never met him personally. But even just watching through that documentary, you can just see that vibe of how he was and how he related. There wasn't this like, awe, the factor that he had going into rooms. It was like: Yeah, you know, I talked to Bill Clinton, and I just let him know how it was like, there was no pause in any of that. And you just saw that carry through and through. Frank Cooper 41:53   You know, he told me, he said: Hey, Frank, look, I'm from North Carolina. And he says he's from Greensboro base from climates. And let's go ahead, it's like, it's adjacent to Greensboro. And he said: I didn't know what was going on. He said, but early in my career, Joe Glaser told me, you know, I want you to go in, and I want you to have this conversation with this head of the music label, and you're going to manage this artist, and he's like, you know, I don't know how to do this. You know, Joe says something to be said that stuck with them for the rest of his life. He said, let me just say this: Every person that you're talking to, they wake up in the morning, they shower, brush their teeth, put up put on their pants, or shoes, whatever. They're just like you, there's nothing special about them beyond the fact that they're another human being, and just relate to them in that way. And you're going to be fine. And that's how he approaches it. So, he's not, it's fascinating, he's not in awe. But he's also not looking down upon anyone. It's like, I'm looking at you eye to eye, let's figure out how we connect with you about how we can make something happen. It's a remarkable skill. And I believe that's what's carried up through all these years. Dan Runcie 42:57   Yeah, I would agree with that, for sure. And we're getting to the tail end here. And I'm sure that as you mentioned, you've had a lot of people that have, you know, seen things in you that were able to help get you to the place you're into your career. Clarence Avant, you know, is one of those folks that gave you great advice. What's another piece of advice that you've gotten in your career that really stuck with you that still resonates today? Frank Cooper 43:17   Well, the best, the best piece of advice I had was early in my career, and I was just thinking as a second-year law school student, and I was with a litigation partner. And what he told me was that I told him, I want to do practice law and teach law for all these reasons. And he said: Okay, fine, fine, fine, whatever. But let me just say one thing that after practicing for 20 years, I've been in public practice and private practice, and I've seen a lot of people who are successful, and those who have not succeeded. And I'll tell you, the one thing that you have to remember is that if you can connect your personal interests with your professional interests, the thing that energizes you in life, you know, that gives you a sense of fulfillment and connect that with your personal interest, you will not only do well, you'll actually have this deep sense of fulfillment. He said: If you don't do it, I think you'll still be successful, superficially, but you'll watch your personal interest go to the wayside. And so that actually sent me on this path of what we now call purpose of this path of discovering life. So, what am I good at? What do I love to do? And what am I good at? And how can I contribute to something bigger than myself? And that was, it was a deep introspective process, but I came out of it, having a sense of what I love to do, what I'm good at, how it contributes to the world, and I've applied it's kind of been my compass, every place that I've been, and it's what impart has allowed me to move from industry to industry at a very high level, you know, from entertainment to technology to consumer goods and financial services. That sense of purpose has stuck with me the entire way. Dan Runcie 44:49   That's real. That's real. And that's a good note to close on with this. I mean, normally my last question is your anything you want to plug and let the Trapital audience know about, but I think you did it right there. Oh, it's perfect. Well, Frank, no, this was a pleasure. I really appreciate you coming on. And I feel like we'll have to may have to check it again with you at some point, we'll see what the next few Super Bowl lineups look like. And then we could do a postgame after that. Frank Cooper 45:15   Let's do it every year. I'd love to do it. Dan Runcie 45:18   That'd be great. Okay, awesome. Frank Cooper 45:19 Thanks, man.  Dan Runcie 45:21   Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week Take a quick look at Frank Cooper’s resume and you might think, “what HASN’T he done?” He’s both Berkeley- and Harvard-educated. Coming out of school, Frank cut his teeth with two iconic labels — Motown Records and Def Jam. And most recently, he’s been Chief Marketing Officer for world-renown brands like Pepsi, BlackRock, and breaking news, he just took the same role with VISA.  


But if you ask Frank, his early years inside the music industry formed the backbone of his illustrious career. It’s during this time period where Frank developed cultural aptitude — and specifically, how to connect larger societal needs with brands he’s led. 


Frank’s unique pedigree that spans music, entertainment, and finance makes his views on business all the more fascinating. And believe me, Frank has a lot of thoughts about today’s ever-changing music landscape — whether it’s in the inflow of capital or the ripples that Web 3.0 will create. Here’s all the talking points Frank and I covered on today’s episode of Trapital:


Episode Highlights

[2:12] How Working In The Music Industry Laid The Foundation For Frank’s Career

[6:37] Differences Between Hip Hop and Grunge Rock In The Mid ‘90s

[8:15] How O.G. Artists “Set The Table” For Today’s Artist Entrepreneurs 

[11:56] How Frank Put Together Beyoncé and Pepsi $50 Million Deal 

[15:45] Frank Reviews The Latest Super Bowl Halftime Show (And Names The Best One Of All Time)

[20:35] Helping Blackrock Create A New Purpose Statement Beyond Purely Profit

[23:48] How The Big Short Movie Convinced Frank To Join The Financial Industry 

[26:22] Frank’s Thoughts About NFTs, Metaverse, And Web 3.0

[29:37] Early Tech Adoption Among Hip-Hop Artists Over The Years

[31:05] Does Frank Own Anything In His Digital Wallet?

[34:05] Frank Thinks Some Brands Are Too Early To Web 3.0

[37:18] Frank’s Harvard Business Review About Diversity In The Workplace

[38:18] Clarence Avant’s Influence On Frank’s Career

[43:17] What’s One Of The Best Pieces Of Advice Frank Has Ever Received?


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Frank Cooper III

 

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 



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Frank Cooper 0:00  

I'm actually not a big believer in traditional financial literacy by itself. I think all the research I've seen suggests that it doesn't change behavior because it's too academic, it's filled with jargon, it's long-form, you know? People's eyes glaze over when you're having the conversation, but I do believe that financial education is absolutely critical.

Dan Runcie 0:25  

Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Frank Cooper, who is just named the new Chief Marketing Officer at Visa. Frank and I recorded this episode before the announcement, so we didn't talk about it here. But I was glad to have Frank on because his experience has been so deep in entertainment, in branding and in marketing. Dating back to his time as an executive at Motown, Def Jam, and then more recently, his time with Pepsi, Buzzfeed and BlackRock. And when you think about his career, it is the perfect combination of understanding brands, what they can learn from the entertainment space and how he's brought that to each sector, which is why it was so relevant to have him on this podcast. We talked about some of the deals he had done with Beyonce and other major artists. We also talked about broader trends with marketing, brands, what they can learn from creators, why financial literacy is so important for Frank and a whole lot more. Had a great time talking with him. Hope you enjoy this one. Here's my chat with Frank Cooper.

All right, today, we got Frank Cooper with us, who is a longtime marketing executive, currently CMO at BlackRock, but you started your career in the music industry, which I always love to see. So, it will be great to start there with you first, welcome. It's great to have you. 

Frank Cooper 2:11  

Thanks, Dan. Great to be here.

Dan Runcie 2:12  

Yeah, it'd be great to start off with the music career piece of it, because you worked at Motown and you worked at Def Jam as well. And you worked at both of those labels at pretty influential times for them. What stands out most to you from that time? What are you most proud of?

Frank Cooper 2:26  

Wow! Well, you know, first of all, it's funny because people say you came from the music industry, how are you connecting this to what you're doing, whether that was at PepsiCo, or here at BlackRock, and I got to tell you, those are some of the most foundational experiences that have shaped pretty much everything that I've done since. And when I think back to Motown, Motown was, was interesting, because, you know, Motown early on was all about assimilation, right? It's about taking black culture and cultivating it in such a way that it can appeal broadly. You know, and how the music sounds, the way they walk, the way they talk, etc. It gave you Smokey Robinson, Diana Ross, The Jackson 5, and Marvin Gaye. And that worked really well. 

In the 90s, it became more about how to evolve that. And so, I thought it was a really interesting juncture. And I was really excited to be there because, you know, at that time, people didn't really want to talk about pure assimilation. They want to be authentic to themselves. And so how do you take that Motown ethos and make it work within, you know, the culture of that time. And, you know, at the time we had Boyz II Men, ABC, and Queen Latifah, and it was fascinating to see that I think we're still at that juncture where R&B still trying to find its place, honestly, and we can talk more about that. But I think Motown at that time became a symbol for how to evolve RMB in a way that fit the culture of the day. Def Jam was completely the opposite. And people look back at it. People today think it was inevitable, they think, you know, hip hop's the number one genre across the world and it seems inevitable, but at the time, some people were wondering whether hip hop at the last, you know, there's: Hey, is this a fad or not? And what I loved about it was that those who were in that game, those were at Def Jam at the time; you understood that this was not just about the music, it's about the deep cultural sensibility that actually propelled that whole genre, you know. Doing it on your own, operating outside of the mainstream, overcoming struggle, and teaching people how to overcome struggle. And so, for me, that became like the most invigorating part of being there Def Jam, and you just saw artists come through that at the time were just creating incredible momentum. You know, we had the month of the man with Method Man and Redman, now we had Jay-Z come through Kanye, you know, and DMX. And it was just this massive kind of momentum that kept building and it all for me at least reinforced this idea of them at their best. They're teaching people how to overcome struggle. And by the mid-90s, what I thought was the most interesting law and that's probably why they in the history of music, one of the more interesting time periods because you had the flannel shirts up in Seattle, the grunge movement happening. And that was had a lot of momentum, and you had hip hop, and you look at the trajectory of those two genres; they went completely in the opposite direction. And grunge was purely about suburban angst, you know, you know, like: Oh, my God, you know, I don't have meaning in you know, what do I do? And I'm not trying to belittle it, but that's kind of where the center of gravity was. And meanwhile hip hop I was like, how do we win, despite the fact that the mainstream has their foot out trying to trip us up? How do we win? How do we get past it? How do we overcome struggle? How do we do it on our own? And to me, that's what I remember more than anything else. And then finally, the artists that I've connected with the most, were the ones that actually embraced that the most, I loved Chuck D and Public Enemy, you know, and took the Public enemy to me, you know, representative, probably the more extreme version of that. I love Jay-Z, and how can you not love Jay-Z and what he's accomplished? And then some people may, you know, Kanye West, Kanye is Kanye. But Kanye, to me is genius. Because Kanye was able to change our sensibility of what hip hop could be, you know, at that time. He was using music sources that others weren't using, he was using voice in a different way. The lyrics were not as combative as some others, they gave expanded the universal what was possible in hip hop. And I think Kanye played a central role in that. And so, I really have a lot of respect for him and what he did at that time for Def Jam, and I've always carried it with me.


Dan Runcie 6:37  

That piece about the artists specifically in the grunge era and in hip hop at that same time, I think it's so key because when people talk a lot about Gen X and Generation X, I think the first thought that may go to people's minds is not just grunge with thinking of the image of Kurt Cobain, or you know, something a Billy Corgan from The Smashing Pumpkins, or one of those in all of what they embodied. But on the other side of that ice cube, Dre and Snoop Dogg are also Gen X and have a very different vibe in terms of what they wanted their music to represent. Not that angst isn't something that they didn't have in their young 20s as well. But it was a very different way of communicating their reality, their experience, and I think people don't always necessarily connect that when they talk about Gen X, at least it in a mainstream way. 

Frank Cooper 7:27  

No, Dan, I think that’s exactly right. And, and you know, what's fascinating is that they both were, both those genres, were tackling the same problem, right? They both looked out and said: Man, these traditional institutions are kind of failing us. I can't rely on them as much as I used to. The definition of success that's been put out there, that's something that I adhere to. They were fighting against the same things, but they took two different paths. And I personally believe that the reason, one of the reasons why hip hop prevailed in that is because it helped you to move forward, you know. If you were, it was invigorating, it would inspire you to try to move forward, not to wallow in any kind of sadness. And I think there's value in that too. But it was about: Okay, it is what it is. Now, how do we move forward? Yeah, make it happen on your own. And they did it not only in the lyrics, they did it in the entirety of their behavior. You know, that's when you started to see the artists become entrepreneurs, you started to see them actually extend their brand and to other businesses. And they built an enterprise, each of these ones of those that were successful to build an enterprise based on the music. And that, to me has become the blueprint, a blueprint for how artists are thinking about it today. Even if you fast forward to this current line. I've never seen this much money flow into music, you know, investors, now buying out catalogs, and we're part of that too, we announce a recent partnership with influence media, Lylette Pisarro and René McLean. But I've never seen this much money flow into music. But to me, it's an extension of what hip hop started, which is there is no inauthenticity in. You're getting paid, you can get paid, you can cash a check, you can extend your business in a variety of ways, and still remain true to yourself. And I think many people today who are reaping the benefits of that should look back to the early days of hip hop and fake and thank those artists. 

Dan Runcie 9:21  

And I think that speaks a lot to your career as well. Because you were able to take your experience. You saw the potential of what these artists could do with their brands. And then you were able to work with a lot of the brands themselves to help bring those artists to the forefront and be: Hey, you can help tell the story for this brand. We can help augment not just what you're doing, but help this brand do it as well. And especially in that time in the 2000s- 2010s, we started to see more, and more that you're at the forefront for so much of that.

Frank Cooper 9:50  

Yeah, you know, one thing that always bothered me when I saw celebrity sponsorships and endorsements and advertisements, it was purely transactional. People would say, you know: I'll write a check to these artists and put them in my commercial. And we'll have the most beautiful drink shot and this commercial, they're like: Oh, closer, closer, closer here, beautiful. We've captured it, we won. But most fans and consumers, they understand that game. And they're like: You know what, I'm glad that ours cut that check, beautiful thing, and I'm happy for that. But I don't believe there's any real connection between that artist and the brand or that product. And therefore, that was completely wasted money. And so, the angle that I took when I took it is that I knew that virtually every celebrity that I've ever met, they all have their own aspirations. They want to do certain things that they cannot do within their current industries, there's always an artist, a filmmaker who wants to make a certain kind of film that they can't make. There’s an artist that wants to do a certain song or put it out in a certain way that they can't do, or they want to extend into new areas. And so, I spent most of my time trying to understand: What are their aspirations? What are they trying to accomplish that they can't accomplish to their own ecosystem? And found that connection point to what we wanted to do. And to me that was the unlock, is like, if I can find that shared aspiration, then I can start to express shared values, shared experiences, a shared worldview that was true. And to me, if you can capture that you don't always win on it. But if you can capture that, that's gold. And I tried to do that across, you know, as many artists as I could.

Dan Runcie 11:25  

Yeah. And I think even that breakdown that you had, you're seeing more of the good examples. Now just seeing some of the great deals that come through, you're still seeing some of the ones that you may shake your head out, whether it's the Instagram posts, or they're just getting a check for something. But in general, you're starting to see more of the long-term value add. And I feel like the Beyonce deal that you had done with Pepsi specifically, that feels like one that falls more in line with there's a longer-term opportunity here to really highlight and tell that story.

Frank Cooper 11:56  

Yeah, you know, it's funny, because when I first started having the conversations with Beyonce and her team, I was like: Okay, this is a long shot, you know. Beyonce was very particular, and rightly, and, you know, reluctant to do anything that didn't fit what she truly believed and didn't fit her values. So, I spent a lot of time with the team trying to understand what they wanted to accomplish. And you know, her part of her genius, I think she's genius on many levels, but part of it is, she understood that she wanted to release things in ways that artists have not done before. And she wanted to create content that complemented the music in ways that artists have not done before, like a visual album. And so, we can help with it, you know, we can help launch the album, we've got millions of packages that are going out every day. And so, what if we did a bespoke design in those packages, and it relates to your album. What if we actually helped fund that visual album. What if we helped put your single out, but most important what if you got in front of 120 million people in the Super Bowl halftime, and then release something after that, you know, it became the most powerful ad possible for you to drive sales of your album. And that's really what made the connection because, you know, if I went to Beyonce in our team and said: Here's a piece of paper, I'm going to slip it across the table to you, and there's a number on here that should make you fall out and excitement. I still would not have considered that there would never have happened, there was no doubt in my mind, there was no amount of money alone that would get convinced her to do it. But it was understanding what she was trying to accomplish and how we could participate in that in a way that benefited both of us. And so that's one for me, one of the most extraordinary deals that I've been involved in, but also one of the most extraordinary experiences because I've learned in part why she is so good. And it was driving me crazy at the time. But she was 100%, right? You know we did, we did a commercial. And what I didn't realize is that, but you look at the commercial and say: Hey, make some edits here, there. She looked at it herself, frame by frame. And then she broke down the arc. And then she, I mean, she was into it and intense. And what I realized is not just Beyonce; with other artists, I’ve seen it with Snoop, you know, Nicki Minaj, I’ve seen it with a wide range of artists is that they put it in, they put the work in. It's not like they say: I'm this brilliant artist, and I'm going to come in and just kind of still use my brilliance and move on. They actually put in the time, and they're focused and intense. And they want to make sure it is the best product they can put out no matter what they're putting out.

Dan Runcie 14:31  

Yeah, with her specifically, you've seen that with each album. I mean, it's like find some way to just level up and continue to do that. And even thinking back to that deal and from the consumer perspective, just seeing how everything lined up. I mean, she put the lights out after the show at that Super Bowl, right? It was something else. But the one piece I did want to clarify with that. So, if the Super Bowl wasn't in the conversation, is it fair to assume that all that deal wouldn't have worked that needed to be if they'd put it over the edge?

Frank Cooper 15:02  

No, no, it would have worked in either way, because I think the Super Bowl definitely contributed to it. Because how many times you're going to have a simultaneous audience of 100 million-plus people watching something. But there were enough other things that she really wanted to do that we could help on. And that didn't involve just the check, you know, the infrastructure of Pepsi at the time, it could be helpful in so many different ways. And I think what's the collection of all those things together, pull the Super Bowl out, I would have added something else that it was done a full-length film together something, you know, but there would have been something that would meet her desire to break the boundaries of what has been done before, and that PepsiCo could actually help her deliver. 

Dan Runcie 15:45  

Talking about the Super Bowl. What did you think about the show that we had this past year with Dre, Snoop and 50 Cent, Kendrick, Marry?

Frank Cooper 15:53  

So, man, I was almost in tears in a way because, you know, I am. So before I left PepsiCo, I renegotiated a 10 year deal with a couple of billion dollars. And I got to know some of the owners, definitely got to know the NFL headquarters very well. And I thought I would never see that day where you had that lineup of artists, you know, from Dre to Snoop to Kendrick to Mary J. Blige, Eminem, and 50 Cent, but you would have never seen that day. But more importantly, I thought I would never see it presented in such an authentic way. They didn't tone down the visuals. And I think it was the absolute best performance I've ever seen, I don't think was the best performance I've ever seen overall, but the collection of that effort, and the collection of the artists and the energy and the visual presentations. For me, this is, this was a seminal moment that I think we should all remember because it will open up the doors for many other artists to come. And what I realized is that they knew it too because you could see, by the way, they were very careful what they did and made sure that they stay within certain bounds. The only person who did something semi-controversial was Eminem, right? And when he nailed it, this to me was a really powerful moment, I thought I would never see it. And I hope that it's not a one-off. You know, I hope that you know, as we see future NFL productions as well as the Super Bowl that we see more black artists, and that we see hip hop, in particular, play a more central role.

Dan Runcie 17:20  

I agree. I think that this one specifically helped almost if you look back to the one, they had in Atlanta, and I feel like there's a lot of talks there about why could've represented Atlanta's soul, R&B, hip hop vibes that, you know, are so tremendous to that city, and then a show that didn't end up showing that 100%. And I feel like: Okay, we have this here. And if you just look at the slide, there are so many cities coming up where you could see something similar for these types of artists, so that that could be special.

Frank Cooper 17:51  

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, so disappointing when they happen in Atlanta. It's like, wait a minute, are you kidding me? Atlanta is all about music. I can lead.

Dan Runcie 18:00  

It's like, I mean, Maroon Five definitely deserves to be on that stage. I mean, they're one of the biggest groups of the past two decades, but from a time in place, and all the things lining up. It was like, come on. Yeah, I know. And they got out what do you got? We got Big Boy, and almost as like a, you know, afterthought to be like: Okay, here, we're hearing the chatter. Let's see who we could get for this one. But that's it.

Frank Cooper 18:25  

Let's give him half a second, don’t look too long, you know, this probably, they will never let me program it. Because I would have gone back, I would have dug in the crates a bit. I would say, you know, let's go to the Goodie Mob. All right, let's bring them back. But you could also they could just soften it up. I mean, you know, Toni Braxton, you know, the whole of face lineup from a certain era could have been on their. Ludacris, He's a mainstream star now. There's so much they could have done. And hopefully, they saw through this, that it was a lost opportunity. And I think they're seeing what's happening on social media from this last Super Bowl, that it's a powerful force that they can tap into, in a way that actually improves the NFL brand. And so, I think the fear was, in some way, this is going to alienate those who are not on the coast, you know, the Midwest. But I hope the realization is now that hip hop is not isolated to the coast. You know, hip hop is foundational across every geographic territory today.

Dan Runcie 19:25  

Right. And especially with this one, too. You had Eminem, who Midwest, one of the biggest artists of the past, you know, a couple of decades to so we'll see. I know you mentioned that this was the best one. Which one do you get the number one for Super Bowl?

Frank Cooper 19:41  

Well, you know, for me, the one that was most special for me was Prince. And when he did Purple Rain, and it started to rain, it's like a whole thing was magical. It was incredible.

Dan Runcie 19:51  

It was poetic. It was like you couldn't script this. It was beautiful. Shifting gears, a bit. Want to talk a bit more about your role and your experience right now at Blackrock. You joined a few years ago, and it was a similar type of role, given the CMO position that you've had, you've had other companies, but definitely a different type of industry and a different type of sector that you had worked in up to that point. But in hearing you in other interviews and things you've talked about, trying to bring financial literacy and elevate that to the discussion has been an important piece of that. So, it'd be great to hear a little bit more about what that's been like for you since you've been there and how that has taken shape.

Frank Cooper 20:35  

Yeah, you know, one of the things that I don't know if this is a risk or not, but at least one of the things I did when I first came in was trying to make, trying to convince the leadership of Blackrock that it needed to have a sense of purpose that wouldn’t be on profits, that wouldn't be on money. Working closely with a bunch of other people, we were successful in doing that. And part of that purpose statement that we ended up with, included this idea of financial inclusion, we help more and more people experience financial well-being. And so, getting that built into the core of a company where we say, hey, that's our ultimate goal. Yes, money and profits are an outcome that we have to have to succeed. But our ultimate goal is to help more and more people experience financial well-being. So, by having financial inclusion built into it, that was a huge step. But I mentioned earlier, that music helped me quite a bit. And the part that helped me is that I looked at culture first, like what is happening in culture that is urgent and important, and that our industry can address. 

One of the things that's happening in culture, for sure, and you can see it all over the world is that more people are feeling like they're excluded from the opportunities for economic mobility, that they don't believe the system is working in their favor, they don't have access to improve their own prosperity. And so, you know, for me, you take that cultural lens and work back to the industry of questions, what can we do to improve that? I'm actually not a big believer in traditional financial literacy by itself. I think all the research I've seen, suggests that it doesn't change behavior because it's too academic, it’s filled with jargon, it's long-form, you know, people's eyes glaze over when you're having the conversation. But I do believe that financial education is absolutely critical. So, what I've started to do is think about what are the elements that can help people move forward and become investors. So, it's increasing their savings. And I think it's four things I think, is knowledge, skills, community, and access. And so, if you go to Reddit, or one of the trending, one of the most substantial subreddit threads, or at least around financial education. People want to know, like, give me the information, but also helped me build the skills, and then give me a community, it gives me some support. And all I need after that is some access, make it easier for me to come in, and make it safe for me to try. And so that's what I've been focused on is really trying to figure out how to improve the knowledge, skills, community, and access so that people have a better shot at increasing their own sense of prosperity.

Dan Runcie 23:11  

Yeah. And from the work you've done so far, I feel like I could see those connections, you started the Tik Tok page. I've been posting more they're trying to connect a bit more with not just the younger generation, but with being able to break those things down. And I know another thing that you had said, once you really liked how a movie like The Big Short was able to help boil these principles down and communicate in a way to be like: Hey, here it is, these concepts aren't as complex as they may always seem, but let's do it in layman's terms. And I feel like I could see elements of that with some of the content that you've all put out recently.

Frank Cooper 23:48  

Yeah, you know, one of the things that convinced me that I should come into BlackRock and move over to financial services was watching that film The Big Short, which is kind of ironic, right? Because it was not a favorable view of the financial services industry.

Dan Runcie 24:02  

A lot of people may watch that movie and not want to come work at BlackRock.

Frank Cooper 24:08  

But what stuck with me is like, you know, a lot of friends who were in investment, and I used to ask him these questions like: What's this thing called a credit default swap? And he would explain it to me, and I'm like: I think I'm fairly smart. I have no idea what you're talking about, like, you know, and I just give up. When I saw The Big Short, I saw those interstitials. And you saw Selena in the club, you know, or the late Anthony Bourdain in the restaurant, or Margie in the tub of champagne. They explained those concepts in really simple terms that anyone can understand. And for me, that was like an awakening was like: You know what? It's not that complicated really. It's just that some people are making it complicated. What if we can actually deliver it in ways that people like to learn today, you know, short-form, jargon-free, highly visual with relatable role models. Man, that could be like a really fascinating thing because then suddenly people could start to take steps forward and become part of the benefits of saving and investing. And so, it was a really defining moment for me. And I’ve taken that logic, and I'm trying to apply it today, you know, in Tik Tok, already, there's already a movement happening on Tick Tock, I mean, if you look at #moneytalk, you know, it's one of the top hashtags already, but it is, in my mind the perfect format for what I'm talking about short-form, highly visual, jargon-free and relatable role models. And, you know, I'm excited we've just launched. So, it's really early days, but I'm really excited about the potential of that platform and other platforms to find a crack in the code on financial education and financial literacy, and financial inclusion. But I think that is the pathway for our own sense of purpose of including more people the benefits of investing.

Dan Runcie 25:55  

Definitely. Yeah, I mean, it's consuming so much attention and has so much mindshare over a generation, you have to be where they're at. I'm curious if there are other channels, are there other areas that you're pursuing, or you're considering doing especially this next year. I feel like things are moving so fast with everything happening, whether it's Web 3.0 or the metaverse. There could be endless opportunities to distill and communicate this type of information.

Frank Cooper 26:22  

Yeah, well, that's such a difficult question. Because, you know, I'm always trying to figure out where things are moving next, and in time it in a way where it can have an impact because I've also learned the hard way, that being too early is the same as being too late. The impact really won't hit you, or abroad, enough people, set of people in the way that you want. And so, when I look at timing and change, I think we have an opportunity in a long-form video, you know, I think we could do things like a documentary film that will be really interesting and helpful, and not just kind of the shilling of the brand or the company. But this area of NFTs and the metaverse is we're at the height of the hype cycle right now. So, we got to get through that. And no one knows exactly how it's going to take shape. But there's a few things we do know. We do know that people want to have the experience of being in an immersive environment. Video games have been doing it for a long time now. And we saw that ship years ago and video games. I don't remember earlier in the video games used to give different tools and weapons and other things that people could use within the game as you started to level up. They eliminated that for variety reasons, including they thought it was unfair terms of pure gameplay, but they had shifted from that to accessories. And so, once you shift to the accessories in the virtual world like a video game, you've entered the metaverse in a way. It's not as immersive as a 3d environment necessarily, but you're entering the metaverse because now you have these accessories. And so, imagine if you're in a virtual world, and these virtual worlds are connected, and you have some limited-edition Nike shoes, or you have some other crypto collectible, that to me is the direction is going, what we can do is that there's some form of exchange that has to happen in these environments. And we can be part of that exchange number one, but then when you look at something like Decentraland, where people could buy a plot of virtual land and build what they want on it, and people can invest and people can start to save suddenly in that virtual world this idea of financial services, investing, asset allocation becomes really interesting. And I think we have an opportunity to step in there in a way that's still authentic, but it also can deliver real value to people who are experiencing those virtual environments. So, I'm very excited about the metaverse, I'm excited about NFTs within the metaverse in particular, in the role that financial services can play.

Dan Runcie 28:52  

Yeah, I agree. It's been fascinating to see how much has changed in the past six months, you know, year plus at this point. But it's also been interesting to see more and more celebrities and especially folks in hip hop that are pushing it themselves or are changing their social avatars to whether it's board apes or some other assets that they have. So, it's really great to see those folks be ahead of the curve as well on a thing like this. Because as we both know, if you're able to have them to set the direction and get their audience bought in, there could be a lot of movement, not just with, you know, who gets bought in but who gets bought in early that could eventually set the tone for what the landscape looks like, looks like as it matures.

Frank Cooper 29:37  

Yeah. And you know, I've always been, I'm happy to see that black artists in particular, but hip hop artists in general, are now are getting credit for leading being one of the leaders within technology. I think it's always happened when ringtones are out, they were leaders of it. When mobile phones and mobile communications were out there were leaders of that. When Twitter launched Black Twitter was the hottest thing on the platform. But it was largely unrecognized. Now it's being recognized. And I'm also sensing a slight mindset shift among some of these artists. So, you take that piece of it, but also this notion that I can be a pure consumer. And it's been or I can build wealth. And you know, we saw seeds of that even in Jay-Z’s 444 album, but even when I see someone like Rick Ross come off the plane to say: Hey, I just did a set for someone I got X amount of check, am I going to go and buy another gold chain? I'm going to invest in this. It is a mindset shift in terms of what success looks like, and all that wealth plays within it. And so, with the convergence of those two things, I think that we're entering a space that none of us know exactly how it's going to play out, but a space where new opportunities are going to come both for artists, but also for entrepreneurs. And just for people who have traditionally been excluded, you know, from the benefits of investing and saving and wealth in general.

Dan Runcie 30:57  

What is your involvement in this space look like? Have you gotten deep into it with yourself, whether it's your own wallets or things that you've been tapping into?

Frank Cooper 31:05  

No, I'm more, I'm sidelined right now for variety reasons. It's tricky. You know, since I've been at BlackRock, there are a lot more restrictions on what I can do. But the thing I've been paying the closest attention to would be crypto assets, in particular, NFTs years ago. And I regret it someone told me early on, you know: Hey, yo, dip into Bitcoin. And I intended to do it, because I was like, you know, who knows where it's going to go, but I'll learn. So, I missed that opportunity, and I feel like this thing is moving so quickly, I could easily miss this opportunity. Also, personally, unless I start getting a ball, because I don't think you can, is moving so quickly. I don't think you can really understand it in a deep way unless you participate in it, you know, you can study it, you can see it, but you kind of participate in it. So, I'm trying to get there. I'm not fully there.

Dan Runcie 31:52  

Yeah. It's a lot. I mean, anyone that considers themselves an expert in Web 3.0 or anything like this, I always push back because the space is growing so fast. And at the broadest extent, we're all learners in this space. We're all just gaining knowledge by day. And if we learn something interesting, we'll share it with others but there are no experts in this everyone is just leveling up. And I do think that these things take time. Even as someone that studies this space for a living related to the things I do, it's still a lot, and every week, you'll see something else being like: Oh, what's that, but like anything else, you have to filter it down. And you have to prioritize where that lines up with everything else that's there. 

Frank Cooper 32:31  

And what are your go-to sources to keep learning and keep deepening understanding of Web 3.0 and NFTs, and the metaverse?

Dan Runcie 32:38  

Yeah, there's a few spots that I've gone through like there's this newsletter that I recently started checking out that has been helpful on that front, it's more of a regular digest to some of the latest things that are going on. There are some other folks in music and more broadly, and media that I've been following that have either bought things or will you know, add me to some of these telegrams or discord groups that are happening. So much of it has happened a bit informally. But you'll see these drops happen once in a while. And it's always this thing of: Okay, you want to support this person because you're cool, then and then you know, you can get the NFT that has access to that, but then you never know where it could go, right? So, there's that. And then on the other side of it, too, just looking through the headlines of some of the things that are happening, I feel like now it's almost a given just to the sources that I'm checking that it'll be so and so in many cases, a hip hop artist that's like: Oh, they just did a NFT deal with this, or they just did that or even the deal that Snoop Dogg had done and how he was able to sell last I checked, you know, it was over $44 million worth of a NFT that had this exclusive access to a lot of his what he would normally have as a VIP thing. It was part of this album that he has now that he has a death row catalog. So, all these things have been kind of like, you know, little nuggets of information that just add and build to it. So, it's definitely been a pretty wide range of things. But that's I feel like I've been able to at least try to keep up with these things.

Frank Cooper 34:05  

I love it. I love it. I have to look up some of those, you know, and one of my concerns around it is this going to be strange coming from someone who lives in marketing is that brands will mess this all up, you know, because you know brands are now aware of how fast it's growing, how powerful it is, how much people want to engage, you know, with NFT's and crypto and the metaverse. I think some of these brands are jumping into early, they will be better off learning and taking smaller steps and not big leaps on this one in my opinion. 

Dan Runcie 34:35  

That brand piece is interesting. I feel like you had said recently that you feel like brands in general just need to be more like creators. And I think if you have that type of mentality, then maybe that can help address some of these ways that you could go into an area and it may not necessarily be the best but if you have that open perspective, it'll turn out better.

Frank Cooper 34:54  

100%. Because the brands can play across a wide range, right? Some brands will come in and say I will be an observer; I will just observe things and share that with people. A little bit of value in that some many, many brands are still in the sponsor layer, like, you know, we will support something, and we hope we get a halo effect by just being a supporter of it. There are literally designs and billboards, you know, at games and things like that. Other brands are curators, they'll say: Hey, we'll weed out the stuff for you. And you can see that we're kind of in the game because our taste level will be evident because we are giving you the best in certain areas. But the brands I think that people will love and respect, and that feel like they're part of the community are these creative brands. They actually create things that add value to people's lives. And so, when I was very started to see it, what I love to see more of is brands come in, and they actually design experiences that help people, you know, if you're a sponsor of the NFL, for example, well, how can you make the fan experience better by creating some something like that? Instead of creating a commercial, can you create a film? You know, can you create some integration into a video game that actually will be beneficial to the players within that game? Creator brands are the ones that add that value, but to be a great creator, you also have to be a member of that community, you can't just parachute in from the outside to say, like, I understand all the nuances that are happening within this community, you have to be a member of it. You have to be active and understand the values and the rituals and the symbols and the stories and the history of that community in order for you to really add value and to be a true creator within it.

Dan Runcie 36:35  

So, brands can't just hop on Twitter and say: Oh, I'm pushing P that's what you’re saying.

Frank Cooper 36:41  

You know, somebody's going to do that, though. You know, someone's going to do it.

Dan Runcie 36:45  

They already have.

Frank Cooper 36:47  

It's terrible, though. But you know, that’s what happens, unfortunately, with too many brands. And the great thing, in my opinion, is that consumers are so smart now. It's like, they see exactly what it is, you will get no credit for you will be maligned. And so, again, I think those brands who understand what it takes to be a creator, jump into it. If you're not ready for that, you can take a step back and be a curator and say, I'm looking at the best of the best, but even then, you still need to be steeped in the culture steeped in the communities that are driving.

Dan Runcie 37:18  

Right. And I think at the end of the day, what happens is like when you have the people that work at those companies that actually represent that culture, that's how you have more of this. If you have the outsiders trying to embed themselves in whether it's a brand or not, there's going to be a disconnect. And I feel like that actually links back to something that you've written about recently, you had a really thoughtful Harvard business review essay, and you talked about black employees at these workplaces in a lot of these types of roles and wanting to feel safe, wanting to feel seen and wanting to feel supported. And one, I mean, I can relate to that 100%, having worked in many of these roles, and I think I appreciated your writing that given the leadership roles in place that you've been in your careers, but I'm curious, how do you feel, you know, from your perspective, as that relates to you and your experience, even now, at the CMO level roles and the C suite roles that you've had for major companies?

Frank Cooper 38:18  

Yeah, you know, it's really interesting to me that article, I couldn't easily have been one of the interviewees because of the experiences that they expressed in the article, not feeling safe to fully express yourself, you know, so that kind of psychological safety, you know, not being seen in the fullness of who you are, you know, and the potential that you have, and not being supported, and supported. I mean, given all the elements that can make you successful, but also being challenged to stretch into new roles. I've experienced all that. And all on the way I also had to deal with, and I think many black and brown executives and women have to deal with this. It's a perception challenge, right? Which is, can the person sitting across from who is in some way responsible for your growth within the company, see your full potential, and it's not like there's this kind of demonic attitude that they have toward you. But their subconscious may not allow them to see the goal is to see you, as a CEO, see you as a CMO. And so, you're always overcoming that perception challenge. But I've been fortunate in that in there's a long list of people that have helped me achieve despite that, there have been people who saw in me, that potential people have given me that opportunity to stretch. 

And the one person who's going to really be in my life, my career for most of my life is Clarence Avant. And Clarence Avant, they, you know, they did the Netflix film on Clarence, The Black Godfather, but early on, you know, Clarence started telling me the stories of what he did, why he did it, how he approached it. And it was a sense of kind of fearlessness that he had, in the sense of, you know, that if you fail is nothing more than we're learning experience, take that and use it to your benefit, helping to communicate. So how do you actually know that someone may not see the full potential in you? How do you actually get them to overcome that? Maybe if you can solve their problems, you know, figure out what their problem is and solve it, it builds confidence, one, but also makes you closer to them. And proximity is really important in order to build these kinds of relationships where people want to help pull you up. And so, he was really central to it. But they have been a long list of people every step of the way that have been helpful to me, because they saw potential in me, and were able to overcome it. I think to do it on a systemic level, we have to rethink how we train managers, and managers are trained, you know, to be technically proficient, they're trained to lead in a way that you'll find your high potential employees, etc. But what we're talking about here is really unlocking potential in all people and to unlock potential and people that may not look like you require a different set of skills. You know, do you have a skill of humble inquiry? Do you don't ask questions in a way that actually motivates people to connect with you? You know, can you practice intense listening? You know, are you listening in a way where you really understand what that person is saying, even though the language may be different than maybe shrouded in euphemisms? That's the training that needs to happen with managers to really break through this and unlock the potential in people that may not look like though. And so, I'm optimistic, but we have a long way to go.

Dan Runcie 41:26  

That's real, the way that things are communicated makes such a big difference. And you bring it up Clarence Avant, I've never met him personally. But even just watching through that documentary, you can just see that vibe of how he was and how he related. There wasn't this like, awe, the factor that he had going into rooms. It was like: Yeah, you know, I talked to Bill Clinton, and I just let him know how it was like, there was no pause in any of that. And you just saw that carry through and through.

Frank Cooper 41:53  

You know, he told me, he said: Hey, Frank, look, I'm from North Carolina. And he says he's from Greensboro base from climates. And let's go ahead, it's like, it's adjacent to Greensboro. And he said: I didn't know what was going on. He said, but early in my career, Joe Glaser told me, you know, I want you to go in, and I want you to have this conversation with this head of the music label, and you're going to manage this artist, and he's like, you know, I don't know how to do this. You know, Joe says something to be said that stuck with them for the rest of his life. He said, let me just say this: Every person that you're talking to, they wake up in the morning, they shower, brush their teeth, put up put on their pants, or shoes, whatever. They're just like you, there's nothing special about them beyond the fact that they're another human being, and just relate to them in that way. And you're going to be fine. And that's how he approaches it. So, he's not, it's fascinating, he's not in awe. But he's also not looking down upon anyone. It's like, I'm looking at you eye to eye, let's figure out how we connect with you about how we can make something happen. It's a remarkable skill. And I believe that's what's carried up through all these years.

Dan Runcie 42:57  

Yeah, I would agree with that, for sure. And we're getting to the tail end here. And I'm sure that as you mentioned, you've had a lot of people that have, you know, seen things in you that were able to help get you to the place you're into your career. Clarence Avant, you know, is one of those folks that gave you great advice. What's another piece of advice that you've gotten in your career that really stuck with you that still resonates today?

Frank Cooper 43:17  

Well, the best, the best piece of advice I had was early in my career, and I was just thinking as a second-year law school student, and I was with a litigation partner. And what he told me was that I told him, I want to do practice law and teach law for all these reasons. And he said: Okay, fine, fine, fine, whatever. But let me just say one thing that after practicing for 20 years, I've been in public practice and private practice, and I've seen a lot of people who are successful, and those who have not succeeded. And I'll tell you, the one thing that you have to remember is that if you can connect your personal interests with your professional interests, the thing that energizes you in life, you know, that gives you a sense of fulfillment and connect that with your personal interest, you will not only do well, you'll actually have this deep sense of fulfillment. He said: If you don't do it, I think you'll still be successful, superficially, but you'll watch your personal interest go to the wayside. And so that actually sent me on this path of what we now call purpose of this path of discovering life. So, what am I good at? What do I love to do? And what am I good at? And how can I contribute to something bigger than myself? And that was, it was a deep introspective process, but I came out of it, having a sense of what I love to do, what I'm good at, how it contributes to the world, and I've applied it's kind of been my compass, every place that I've been, and it's what impart has allowed me to move from industry to industry at a very high level, you know, from entertainment to technology to consumer goods and financial services. That sense of purpose has stuck with me the entire way.

Dan Runcie 44:49  

That's real. That's real. And that's a good note to close on with this. I mean, normally my last question is your anything you want to plug and let the Trapital audience know about, but I think you did it right there. Oh, it's perfect. Well, Frank, no, this was a pleasure. I really appreciate you coming on. And I feel like we'll have to may have to check it again with you at some point, we'll see what the next few Super Bowl lineups look like. And then we could do a postgame after that.

Frank Cooper 45:15  

Let's do it every year. I'd love to do it.

Dan Runcie 45:18  

That'd be great. Okay, awesome.

Frank Cooper 45:19

Thanks, man. 

Dan Runcie 45:21  

Thank you. If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show.

Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week

]]> 2747 no The Future Of Live Music with Kevin Shivers, Partner at WME https://www.trapital.com/podcast It’s no secret that touring is the lifeblood of most modern-day musical artists. But while most fans only see the finished product — a head-bobbing performance at Coachella or a sold-out nightclub — few get a glimpse into the behind-the-scenes work being done by professionals like Kevin Shivers, a partner in WME’s music division. Let this interview with Kevin be your inside look at what goes into the live performances that fuel the entire music industry. Kevin has been with WME since 2008 after a stint in Hollywood. While with WME, he’s worked with stars such as Tyler The Creator, Summer Walker, Kid Cudi, and plenty more on their touring strategies. Of course, Kevin’s world — much like every other industry — was dealt a massive blow during the past two years. But with live shows seemingly back (knock on wood), Kevin has his eyes toward the future. And the future is an even better fan experience, says Kevin. NFTs, virtual concerts, removing the frictions of going to a real-life show — these are all ongoing evolutions that will better connect superfans with their favorite artists. We covered this near-term future in our interview, plus a whole lot more. Episode Highlights [2:15] How Kevin Broke Into The Entertainment Business  [4:00] How Has the Music Business Changed In The Past Two Years?  [5:25] The Go-Forward Plan For 2022 [6:40] What Spurred Tyler The Creator’s Big 2021 [9:35] What Data Goes Into Entering New Touring Markets  [13:10] Festival Strategies With Artists [14:56] How Has Streaming Changed Touring Trajectory [17:10] The Biggest Touring Mistake [18:30] Social Media’s Influence On Touring [19:30] Touring Difference Between Hip Hop And R&B [21:02] How Kevin Measure Success For Himself  [23:00] Why Kevin Is So Vested In Mentorship [25:19] Diversity & Inclusion Initiatives Within The Music Industry  [28:46] The Impact Web 3.0 Will Have On The Music Industry [31:20] Will Virtual Concerts Replace Live Shows? [32:30] Five-Year Predictions For Music Touring [34:43] How Many Days Will Kevin Spend At Shows In 2022? [35:40] How Do You Find The Next Musical Star? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Kevin Shivers, Instagram: @bellmeadallstar     Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands _____ Transcription: The Future Of Live Music with Kevin Shivers, Partner at WME Kevin Shivers 00:00 You gotta ask yourself after arenas, then what? Where are you going after that? I mean, like, you know, you might already have that plan in your head, but like these careers are, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Dan Runcie 00:18 Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast! I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Kevin Shivers. He's a partner at WME, and he represents some of the biggest artists in the game like Tyler, the Creator, Summer Walker, and more. We talked about how he was able to maximize the big year that Tyler had last year. I feel like Tyler headlined so many music festivals, and had so many appearances. Kevin talks about what it took to make that happen, especially given how turbulent things were with COVID, and all of the restrictions and variants that came through and how he was able to still make it happen. We talk more broadly about music festivals in the strategy that Kevin has for making sure his clients can get certain buildings on the roster. We also talked about Summer Walker and how he was able to do the same for her. Then, we talked more broadly about what it's like as a black executive, especially in representing artists. There are not too many people at agents that are at Kevin's level that look like Kevin, so we talked about that. Some of the advocacy work and mentoring and giving back that he's done and he's prioritized in his career, and so much more. It was great to have Shivers on here. I hope you enjoy this. Here's my chat with Kevin Shivers. All right, today, we got one of the most powerful agents in the game. Kevin Shivers partner at WME. Welcome to the pod, feels like we're long overdue. Kevin Shivers 01:49 Thanks for having me, Dan. It's a pleasure.  Dan Runcie 01:51 Yeah, it's funny because I feel like this time of the year, I always see the festival posters come up for all of the music festivals. And I'm sure you've seen the one where they replace the names of the festivals with the agencies that they're all part of. And whenever I see the WME, I'm like: Man, Kevin was on his game this year.  Kevin Shivers 02:10 It's definitely not all me, man. There are so many great agents at work here. Happy to be a part of this team.  Dan Runcie 02:15 So you've been in the game for a while now. But let's take a step back. Because I know you've been working at the agency for some time. But what was it that first attracted you to the business? Kevin Shivers 02:27 I had to say it was my mother. When I was a kid growing up, my mother would drag my brother out of movies every weekend. And that's the first time in my head where I got: Wait, I would love to work in entertainment because I love the movie so much. My mother loves movies so much. Even during COVID, she was still going to the movies. And that's like the really, my first interest into the business. When I graduated from high school, I went to college at University of Texas. I majored in film with the plan of moving out to LA and being a producer. And I did move out to Los Angeles, I started interning at The Weinstein Company at the time. And then I went on to this Company Cost of Beanie films, they had a deal at Weinstein. And from there, I kind of entered into the film business, and I got my first taste into: This is not for me, this is not what I want to do in my life. Partly because I was really bad at my job, like I tried, but I didn't want to read 30 scripts a week. This is not what I wanted to do. And then I pivoted, I left there. And I went to this place called Cats Media Group, which is like they did TV sales. And I knew that, that wasn't long term. And I went there to stay in Los Angeles, and to figure it out. And from there, I figured out I wanted to be an agent and WME. I had some experience in music and in Austin like going to shows. I knew a promoter, this guy Charles Adler, Ramsay Three. And at the time, it was the William Morris Agency. And that's my first interest into entertainment.  Dan Runcie 03:56 Nice. And I feel like the past year and a half, almost two years now. It's probably been unlike any other time period since you've been in this. What's that been like for you? Kevin Shivers 04:05 You mean like COVID, and the ways impacted shows? It's been wild, right? Like if I go back to 2020, there was so much going on in the picture of even the world and in all of our lives. You had George Floyd, you had Trump and you had COVID and uncertainty. So 2020, being an agent, it was moving shows from the beginning of the year to the end of the year. That doesn't work for all the social things that are going on in the world to 2021. The first six months were kind of the same of 2020, and the first light in the tunnel I think was Rolling Loud, like Rolling Loud played, and then Lollapalooza was maybe a week or two later. And then you start seeing Austin City Limits and Outside Lands playing off in some tours. And then we started; it started to make sense, then Omicron came along, and we're like back for a period of time back at square one. But it seems like 2022 is gonna bring a lot of joy, you know. Shows are planned, Superbowl is happening in a few days, Pro Sports are going along. So it seems a lot of positivity. Dan Runcie 05:10 What do you think will be different for 2022 and 2023 thereafter? Because I feel like it'll be this gradual shift where eventually things will start to feel like the touring schedule is maybe back to somewhat of what it was before COVID. But how long do you think that will really be like? What do you think will be the first year that we can look back at and say: Okay, this is the first year that doesn't feel like it was impacted in any way? Kevin Shivers 05:36 I think there's some hope in 2022. If we just changed the way that we’re thinking that this is the new world. Things might pop up, the virus might flare back up and flare back down. But let's try to figure out how to move forward. I think I'm starting to see that people are out and about in shows, they are playing sports, you know. The NFL season went through the whole season, they had ups and downs. And I think that like we're starting to see some positivity, lots of hope for 23. Hopefully 23, we get back to some sort of, or we get to some sort of a new normal, where we're living in this new world, and we're just going with the punches. Dan Runcie 06:12 I hear that. So I think the good thing for you though is that even, until we got to that point, you've been moving a lot. And I know that Tyler the Creator is one of your bigger clients and 2021 was a big year for him. Headlined a bunch of festivals, dropped his album. What was it like making sure that everything could line up and that you could have everything set for him despite everything else that was going on with the touring business? Kevin Shivers 06:38 First of all, I want to say Tyler's a star and a one of a kind of talent, and he knows exactly what he wants. I'm lucky to be a part of his team, and he has an excellent team around them. It starts with the managers Chris and Kelly Clancy, who are amazing people. The business manager, Joe Colone, amazing lawyer, my partner James Ruby, who does International Day watch after her at the agency and all the other people that touchTyler. But 21 was a great year; we got the headline target the headlines for festivals, but it was also we had some goals from, it was also challenging. First thing is the record comes, the record is amazing and it's also finding a window when we can go on sale when COVID is not surging, and I think that the team and I,we all got lucky because we found a window.We knew Tyler was going to headline Lollapalooza and the goal was after you get all the media, the media hype coming from Lolla. We knew he was going to bring an amazing show; that Monday after Lolla, finding that window where we can go on sale and luckily for us, no COVID spikes out Lolla, nothing crazy. And there's no COVID spikes in the world. So that was the first thing, right? I think the second thing when we thought about touring, is trying to find the markets for him to play Tyler, somebody that wants to push the envelopes. And we ended up putting up 35 arenas, breaking in some new markets. I saw last night a show in San Diego. He was like: I could have done 50 shows. I mean, granted, it was nice to have, you know, the tour. And I was like: Okay, we'll see how you feel at, like, night 33 or something. But we were able to break into new markets. Columbus, Vegas, El Paso, Pittsburgh, to name a few. I think the third thing is that Tyler really, really wanted to give the fans the ultimate experience. This is the lineup: Teezo Touchdown, Vince Staples, Kal Uchis. And I think the last thing is, you know, making sure that we hit the sweet spot in pricing. So we, you know, give the fans a place where they can feel happy, a place where they can buy tickets, but also maximizing the gross, keeping ticket sales in the gross. And this was a joint effort with the managers, Chris and Kelly, Michelle Bernstein, who's an excellent marketing ticketing person and AG team led by Cody over there. Dan Runcie 08:56 Talk to me a bit more about the new markets and picking those.You mentioned in Pittsburgh, you mentioned El Paso. What are the data that insights are the field that you look for when you're like: Hey, this is somewhere that we want to consider going to that we haven't gone before. And if we do it, is this the type of venue that we should go in this market as opposed to somewhere like LA or New York where he's already proved himself?  Kevin Shivers 09:20 Well, I think there's a few things, so one is whenever Tyler, any of my clients, I'm always trying to figure out, I want them to play as many places that they can. Just reach all the fans and maximize the opportunity we're on the road because if it's a Tyler recording or whoever it is, or Cody, you're not gonna get to see them every single year. That is a unique experience. But to answer your direct question, it's one looking at the data if it's from Spotify, or our past sales. Two is looking at the markets and seeing if there's a building or venue that makes sense like Columbus. We know that's a place, there's a college town where Tyler's played there before, played there, sold out. I think a smaller room on the onsale, knew there was demand, didn't realize, I mean, the Columbus sales are insane. But this didn't realize like: Wow, that's, I mean that is really like that's a smaller market that has turned into a market, right? I think it's looking at our diverse lineup of talent on the bill, you know, going to a place like El Paso and looking at: Oh, there's probably going to be some Kali fans, and Vince fans and Teezo fans, right? That's a good place. And that's also a place that doesn't get a lot of entertainment. So like, and that ended up being like a home run. So it's like, kind of looking at the whole picture of what you got and talking to a lot of people that are smarter than you in kind of coming up with a plan. And also just working with good people that have a point of view. Dan Runcie 10:47 What are the trade-offs that you have to make for those kinds of decisions? Because I imagine that there's the ones that do cross the threshold to be like: Okay, let's make this happen. But you know, kind of like you were saying before, it's tough to try to do 50 shows in a specific short amount of run or whatever it may be. What are some of those considerations you may have to make in terms of the markets that you can't pick? Or the ones you know, that you may not be able to put in this time, right? Kevin Shivers 11:11 I think there are a few things. One, it's like really talking to your clients and letting them know, we might, we're going to try to go in this market. This possibility, it might not go the way that we want, but we have to, to me if you're not trying if you're not putting risk on the line, and what are we doing, right? It's like, I'm actually somebody who's okay with failing, right? And I’m not saying that we fail or anything, but I'm okay with doing that risk for the bigger reward. So it's like really, really like getting in there and talking to them about, you know, the strategy, right? And like, the goal, I think the goal should be like, when you go out every two, three years is gaining new fans, gaining that new network. Dan Runcie 11:50 Right, especially now. I feel like for someone like him, it's probably been interesting. I know, you've been with him to see the rise and just to see how the fan base has continued to evolve over time. So I imagine he probably even sees things where he's like: Okay, these are the Tyler fans that ,you know, have been with me since the Globin days. If I go to this city versus, you know, you go to this other city. They may not have discovered me as much until Flower Boy or something like that. I'm sure he does. Yeah, it's fascinating. And I think with him too, if we talk a bit more about the festival side of things, he obviously was a headliner, as you mentioned, his Lollapalooza show was broadcasted. I didn't go to the show, but I was able to see it through Hulu, because they had it coming through there. When you're trying to have someone like him, obviously, you have many different artists and they have different levels that they may want to perform at. And ideally, you want to have everyone maximizing and performing at the highest level or being like the highest row on that festival poster. But for someone like Tyler, is it going into the year like: Hey, headline or buster; if we can't be a headliner for this festival, we're not going to do it. Or does it depend on who some of the others are? What are those conversations like?  Kevin Shivers 13:07 I think when you start a campaign with any artist, it's just like sitting down with the team and figuring out what the goals are, right? And it's all a trajectory and building on the last. I think you want to, the goal is always to build on the last time you were out, to build on the last year, right? And having that conversation. And you know, different artists have different things. Some people want to specifically target these particular festivals, or you know, you're going out in his window, and you could maybe use a festival to route in and out to get the gross-up for the whole tour. It's just like, really just, it's really spending time with the client spending time with the manager to find out, figure out what the goal is in maximizing the opportunities. Dan Runcie 13:49 Is it any tougher to do that though? The way that artists can just rise so fast now, especially in the streaming era. Because I know that there's normally the standard, you know, you do your clubs, you can do a, you know, ballrooms or amphitheaters, and then maybe if you get to arenas or stadiums, that's their trajectory. But with people just getting so big, so fast, does that change the dynamic? Or it's like: Okay, how do you still balance what they may have done last time and use that as a reference point versus how quickly they can rise in this era? Kevin Shivers 14:19 I mean, look, you have to have a point of view, and you have to have a plan. And you have to have some thoughts, right? And I think that people can really jump up really, really quickly. But we like to use this thing: don't skip steps, right? You know, sometimes if, you know, you can go play in an arena, why not go play multiple nights at a smaller room and build the momentum, build a buzz, meet people on the streets, leaving, not being able to get to the show. So that when you come back around, you still have gas in the tank. I mean, there's no one size fits all plan. It's like, you have to just know who you're working with, spend time and really kind of draw that. Draw that sketch up and map it out and let it listen. A plan is just a, it's just a roadmap. It can be amended along the way. There's no like set in stone thing, but other than like, no knowing where you want to go, knowing what you think, you know, going to be doing the next year, the next five years. That is what's most important. Dan Runcie 15:13 That makes sense. And that reminds me of something I heard. I think it was Olivia Rodrigo, who said in some recent interview when he announced her tour. And someone must have asked her something along the lines of: Hey, you had one of the biggest years in pop music this past year, could you have done arenas? And I think she said that same line, you said: I don't want to skip any steps. This is where that is. So I think that's something that definitely rings true. And we're seeing examples of that. Kevin Shivers 15:39 Yes. And you gotta ask yourself after arenas, then what? Where are you going after that? I mean, like, you know, you might already have that plan in your head, but like these careers are, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Dan Runcie 15:49 So what do you think are some of the mistakes that artists can make? Like, I mean, you don't have to drop any names. You don't got to put anybody on blast. But is there anyone that you think maybe made a touring misstep? Or there's something where you can look back and be like: Ah, if they had done that a little differently, things could have worked out a little bit, you know, whether it's better or worse, or however for them. Kevin Shivers 16:09 I think sometimes when people overthink it and end up doing nothing, that's like a bummer for everybody. That's a bummer for the artist. That's a bummer for the fan, that's a bummer for the culture, like, like you're hot, you're popping right now. We really need to see you really, really need to see you show up and pull up on us and see what you have. I think that, that's a mistake, not a mistake, but that's just a bummer for everybody. We want to see, we want to see you do your thing. And I would love it if instead of doing nothing that artists, sometimes people would do something. Dan Runcie 16:39 So you think part of it is that there's a hesitancy to try to capture the moment, or sometimes they can be a bit more resolute or hesitant to do things when there is an opportunity to go back out there. Kevin Shivers 16:51 Or they just don't know, or they just are trying to get it perfect. And like, you know, you're going to we're all going to make mistakes, there's going to be ups and downs. I think sometimes you just got to go play, you know, you got to give the fans what they want. Dan Runcie 17:04 Do you think any of this has become any more challenging in the social media era? Because one thing that I've heard both on the talent side is that artists are even more so particular about how everything looks from a live perspective, because that shot that goes on Instagram or that shot that goes on Tik Tok, that influences ticket sales, especially from, you know, whether it's the first show or whatever it is. Do you feel like artists are feeling like they need to have things more perfect even though deep down, you know, that it shouldn't be that way? Kevin Shivers 17:33 I mean, it's got to be really, really tough because the cameras are always on somebody always, you know, whether you like it or not, is documenting things that you do. So I think that I couldn't even imagine how much pressure that is and how tough that has to be. You know that social media can be good. And there can be some other sides where you're like: Wow, this is tough. Dan Runcie 17:52 Yeah, I know, we've talked a lot about Tyler and about hip hop overall. But I know another one of the major artists you represent is Summer Walker. And you know, she had a big year, last year as well. And I wanted the differences whether you're planning a tour for, or you're planning live events, in general, for R&B artists, as opposed to someone in hip hop. Kevin Shivers 18:14 I don't think there's really many differences, I just think you have to just, it goes back to the same. There’s no any artist planning and really just get, you know, in figuring out what the goals that they have and how you can best service them, right? I don't really think there's a different strategy or a different lane. I think if you love Summer Walker, you love Summer Walker, you're gonna go out and see it, right? And she has, she has an incredible fan base. Dan Runcie 18:40 Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Because one of the things I was wondering with someone like her.Knowing how passionate her fan base is, I was wondering if there was a connection of like: Oh, you know, the streams may show this and the data may show this, but because of how R&B fans are, there may be a bit more likelihood that that could translate to ticket sales or purchases as opposed to other genres. Kevin Shivers 19:02 You know, I think the fans are going to come out that they love somebody and Summer respects our fans. People like Summer Walker followers, or they just, they love her. I think they're just going to come out and show up and see her play. Dan Runcie 19:14 Now. That's real, that makes sense. So for you, I mean, I know, you got a full roster, and you're always making sure that you can maximize them to the best of their abilities. So how do you measure success for yourself as a partner and as someone that's representing them on their behalf?  Kevin Shivers 19:30 The answer is really simple: Helping others, right? I got into this business because I wanted to help artists grow. And it's like, it starts with the clients like you start thinking about, about people that I work with, like: What can I do to help them? What can I do to help them grow or give them everything that they need? Are we, you know, from last year to this year? Are we showing up every day to help them get to that next level? That's the first thing. I think also the way I measure success. It's like the same thing with helping others. Like it starts for me every day when my assistant Ebony, I think she's gonna be a great executive one day, but am I showing up for her? Do I slow down enough to answer her questions? Do I mentor her? Do I spend time with her? Because like, that's important to me. We have many, many amazing young agents that work here. Am I showing up enough to help them sign up clients? Am I giving them what they need? I think you know, measuring success. Is everybody around you doing well? Are you doing what's good for the organization? I co-run hip hop with Zach, Isaac, Caroline and James Rubby. And Caroline's always saying we got to take care of youngs, you know, it's Justin neighbor's getting what he needs? Is Sarah and Ronnie getting what they need? And then I think it's just, it's really about creating that culture, creating a universe, that the people you will arise into the next level of being selfless. And then also from a DNI perspective of like: What diverse people can we grow? Can we hire? Are we retaining them? These are all the ways that I measure success. I try not to look at what other people are doing. Because I mean, it doesn't really matter. I want to make sure that the organization and the people around me are set up for success. Dan Runcie 21:14 I hear that. And I think a lot of the themes you mentioned there align with mentorship, and whether it's being a mentor or support for the artists that are looking to you for guidance, your co-workers and your colleagues. Can you talk a little bit more about why that's so important to you? Because even in reading and hearing other interviews, I know you've been active on that front, making sure that you can use your platform and where you are to pass the torch and help others along the way. Kevin Shivers 21:40 I think mentorship is one of these things like, if we're not mentoring, then what are we doing? Why are we even showing up? You have to always be trying to look out for other people. I've had people that looked out for me and my career, people that still look out for me. And I think that is one of the key things. One of the reasons that makes me want to get up every day and come into the office is, like, helping others. I think that's one of the reasons why we're put on this earth to help people. A non-negotiable thing is mentorship. I mean, the crazy fact about, I'll go do an interview, or I'll do a panel and everybody that writes to me on IG or LinkedIn, I write everybody back, everybody. I mean, I probably send more people to the HR department here for jobs than anybody. Because I just want everybody back. I think that's important, because I was once the young kid who wanted to figure this out. And like I didn't know, I had no clue and people helped me. So I think that's a very important aspect of the job. Dan Runcie 22:35 100%. And even on a personal level, I remember the first time you reached out to me, Hey, love what you're doing. Hey, how can I help? And you're just like: Oh, who do you want to interview? Oh, I was listening to them yesterday, boom, let's get this done. So even on a personal level, I need you out. You're looking out for me, man. I appreciate that.  Kevin Shivers 22:52 Yeah, I mean, well, you're doing it. I listen to your podcast every week. I think it's amazing. I think what you're doing for the culture is great. And I just wanted to get to know you and just to help where I can and, and that's just, that's what I think is important. Dan Runcie 23:05 Definitely, definitely. And one of the things that you had put out, because a couple years back, but it really stuck out to me was this was right after George Floyd's murder and the music industry had the show must be paused response. And you had written these guest posts on Pollstar and you were talking about how this industry just needs to do better by its black execs specifically on the recruiting front. And I know you were just talking about how, you know, you're always pushing things forward to HR. And I'm sure this must be really personal for you as well, you are one of the few folks that looks like you in the position that you have in this whole industry. So I'd love to hear how you feel like the industry has responded since everything had happened after George Floyd's murder and the response to where we are now in 2022. Kevin Shivers 23:57 You know, in response to your comment about I wanted a person who looks like me in the industry. I always say to everybody, I'm amazing, but I'm not that amazing. There's, there should be more people that look like me doing what I do and and you know, partners in hire, right? And I think we still have a lot of work to do. There's good news though. There's positive conversation around DNI, people are aware, people are aware that there needs to be more black people and more diverse people need to have more opportunities. I still think that we need to keep pushing the envelope, we still have a lot more to do in terms of hiring and creating opportunities for black people. The organization's know they have to do better, but they have to buck the old status quo. They have to go outside of the norm. And today to some people, it might be like: Oh, we're taking a risk. No, DNI has to be inside of your lifeline, inside of your blood, inside of your everyday practices. It's not something that you can just talk about once a quarter, you gotta live it, you got to be in it every day. And I believe that the black people need to be promoted, they need to be elevated. They need to be given the same opportunities and shots. When we were interviewing for jobs, I think in any, in any industry, not just entertainment, you need to be interviewing black people, people of color, LGBTQ, there just needs to be more opportunity. We need more Sylvia Rhone's, more Ethiopia's, more tons Jay-Z and Def Jam. We need more leaders, more partners. I mean, we have to just keep our foot on the gas, keep pushing the envelope because this, we're not there yet. But we're going in the right direction. And we need to keep the momentum. Dan Runcie 25:30 Right. And I think even an example of that, the folks you just mentioned, I think a lot of folks in this industry are all on a first name basis. And as incredible as all those folks are, how do we get to the point where they're not on a first name basis, because they aren't just the few black execs in there. I mean, it's definitely going to continue to take time. And I think whether it's conversations like this, or the efforts you're doing will help. But I'm hopeful that it can get there eventually.  Kevin Shivers 25:55 I'm hopeful, too. I think we got to stay targeted and focus. But also at the same time, remember, like, this just didn't happen overnight, right? It's not going to change overnight. But we have to like, we have to keep, we have to stay on this because it can change and it needs to be better. Dan Runcie 26:11 Definitely. So let's switch gears a bit. Let's talk a little bit about the future, specifically with regards to touring and technology and what things will look like in, the potential with Web 3.0 and the metaverse. Because now you have agencies that are specifically I'm sure WME likely also has a division where they focus specifically on digital environments, or getting artists lined up on that perspective. How do you look at that? Specifically, with the artists you have on your roster, what the potentials are for them in these digital worlds. Kevin Shivers 26:50 I think Web 3.0 is just it's massive, huge, huge opportunity. You know, if you think about the evolution started in virtual, went over to Fortnite, but I just think it brings control back to the artists in a way. Artists had an act like this the whole time, these music artists, they've had fan clubs, they've had social media, but what Web 3.0 does, it gives more control to them. It's gonna give them more power, but like, it kind of cuts out the middleman and I think you know, things are gonna change in the next six months, next five years, it's gonna be an exciting world. If you look at what Coachella did, by selling the NFT, a lifetime Coachella pass. I mean, I think artists are gonna come up with these things where, you know, if you want to be in the front row of my show, here's the NFT for the chance to buy the front row tickets, or maybe it just goes inside of there. And they figure out what to promote, but I just think like, it's an exciting time. Like, it's the, it's endless. I was just on the phone with A Jones the other day, I love what he's doing with Royal. And I think the deal that he did with Nas and Antony Silay is, like,amazing; that looks like where things are headed. I mean, it's just, you know, like any of these things, it's gonna be ups and downs, right? In the Web 3.0, but I just think the opportunity is endless. Dan Runcie 28:01 Yeah, things are early, things are also moving really fast. Six months from now, it's gonna look completely different. And I am excited for the artists that are taking advantage early. I feel like I can already imagine Camp Flog Gnaw Carnival having some type of digital environment or some type of experience in the metaverse. Kevin Shivers 28:21 I'm sure it will, I'm sure Lollapalooza and some of these other properties. That's where they're headed. I mean, it's gonna be a really exciting time. I just hope people get off the couch, you still come out to show. Dan Runcie 28:35 Is that a concern you have though? Like, do you wonder about that in the future? Kevin Shivers 28:39 No, no, I was just joking. I mean, I don't think anything can replace the live experience, just like the Zooms are great, right? But I think when you're in a meeting with somebody, it's 10 times better. And I think a concert is 100 times better. I love, I love going to festivals, I've been to them all over the world. And I love seeing the reactions in real time on people's faces from their favorite artists hidden in the stage. So I don't think anything can replace it. I think it's going to only enhance the experience. Dan Runcie 29:07 Agreed. That's what I always go back to. Everything in these experiences are additive and isn't a replacement for anything. And I think it'll probably just force more creativity for every aspect, because you're not just trying to have something be a catch all. So I think I'm interested to see how it'll continue to shape live performances and what that can look like from the, you know, the IRL experience. Yeah. And on that note, do you have any predictions for what you think the next three to five years or so will look like specifically in the lifespace? I mean, pandemic notwithstanding, I mean, obviously, I think we'll continue to see the after effects of that, but any type of, you know, evolutions are any type of future changes that you think will see over time. Kevin Shivers 29:51 Yeah, I think 2022 is going to be bigger than we thought. I think that hopefully, I think we're headed to a healthy tour environment. I think there's going to be new players in terms of buyers and festivals. And I think the fan experience will that's going to be the thing of the future. I think everyone has realized they have to zero in on the fan from artists curated weekends and festivals to I think even super service in the fan. Think about this, think about a world where service lets you buy a ticket, has a car that picks you up, dinner reservations, great seats, even find you a babysitter.I think that's where we're going, we're going to this place, we're like: Okay, I can't even be, I'm busy. I didn't want to deal with this, boom, hit a button. And this is where we're going. I think that's exciting. Because you know, getting inside of the mind of the fan, what they really want is going to be the next evolution.  Dan Runcie 30:42 Yeah, even you mapping that out. If you literally could press one button and solve that, I think you'd also just increase the amount of people that can come through, right? You mentioned the babysitter, the amount of people that have young kids, and it's like, you know, just the thought of them needed like, oh, you know, we got to find someone for this to cover for this night. Like, yeah, if all that can be taken care of. Kevin Shivers 31:00 Because I think people love live music, and live music is such a treat. But when you think about the hurdles you have to do, you got to put on some clothes, maybe, you know, show starts at seven, get homework, feed your kids, do this, do that. And if you could just take some of that away from them. That's like, you know, bringing the fan experience to a new level. Dan Runcie 31:21 Definitely. So I know that you're always on the go with festivals. And you know, I know you love going into them. But I know it's also for your work as well. If you have to guess, how many shows do you think you'll go to in 2022? Kevin Shivers 31:33 I can tell you this. I'd rather answer this way. How many days I plan on hitting a lot of festivals in 2022. So I think I'm going to be, I call it 50 to 60 days watching music, right? That's what I'd say. Dan Runcie 31:48 Okay. Yeah. All right. And even that, I mean, that's a lot more than the average person. But I mean, it's just incredible. Because you get to just see all the fine tunes, you get to just see everything. And like you mentioned, this is interesting, you're traveling all across the world for this stuff. Kevin Shivers 32:02 Yeah. I mean, that's, that's one of the reasons I love doing what I do. I mean, like, really, I get to go see live music in different parts of the world. I mean, I can't even imagine anything better than that. Dan Runcie 32:12 Yeah. So last question. Before we let you go. I know we talked a lot about Tyler. And I know from our conversations, just the uniqueness of you seeing that star power and star potential, even from the first time you connect it. How do you find that next tile? Or how do you find that thing to know? Okay, yeah, this is the one that we need for this next generation.  Kevin Shivers 32:34 Oh, wow. I think when I'm looking to sign somebody, I'm looking for somebody that has a unique point of view, for somebody that is fearless, and then wants to do the work. Dan Runcie 32:43 That makes sense. Hear that man. Hey, before we let you go, man, this was great. I'm glad you could come through and make this happen. But is there anything else you want to plug? Or let the Trapital audience know about it? Kevin Shivers 32:54 I think everybody should go out and see some shows this year. I think 2022 is going to be a good year, and then one thing I want to say is to somebody who wants a career in entertainment, I think you should go for it. I think you should move to LA, move to New York, move to Atlanta, move to Nashville. Call, email some people; call, email me. I'll probably write you back pretty soon and just go for your dreams. Dan Runcie 33:15 What's your email address? Kevin Shivers 33:17 Kshivers@wmeagency.com. It's all good. Dan Runcie 33:23 Now appreciate that, man. I welcome man. Thanks for coming through this as a pleasure. Kevin Shivers 33:27 I appreciate you Dan. Dan Runcie 33:31 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, posted to your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review and tell people why you liked the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 24 Feb 2022 17:00:00 -0000 The Future Of Live Music with Kevin Shivers, Partner at WME full Dan Runcie It’s no secret that touring is the lifeblood of most modern-day musical artists. But while most fans only see the finished product — a head-bobbing performance at Coachella or a sold-out nightclub — few get a glimpse into the behind-the-scenes work being done by professionals like Kevin Shivers, a partner in WME’s music division. Let this interview with Kevin be your inside look at what goes into the live performances that fuel the entire music industry. Kevin has been with WME since 2008 after a stint in Hollywood. While with WME, he’s worked with stars such as Tyler The Creator, Summer Walker, Kid Cudi, and plenty more on their touring strategies. Of course, Kevin’s world — much like every other industry — was dealt a massive blow during the past two years. But with live shows seemingly back (knock on wood), Kevin has his eyes toward the future. And the future is an even better fan experience, says Kevin. NFTs, virtual concerts, removing the frictions of going to a real-life show — these are all ongoing evolutions that will better connect superfans with their favorite artists. We covered this near-term future in our interview, plus a whole lot more. Episode Highlights [2:15] How Kevin Broke Into The Entertainment Business  [4:00] How Has the Music Business Changed In The Past Two Years?  [5:25] The Go-Forward Plan For 2022 [6:40] What Spurred Tyler The Creator’s Big 2021 [9:35] What Data Goes Into Entering New Touring Markets  [13:10] Festival Strategies With Artists [14:56] How Has Streaming Changed Touring Trajectory [17:10] The Biggest Touring Mistake [18:30] Social Media’s Influence On Touring [19:30] Touring Difference Between Hip Hop And R&B [21:02] How Kevin Measure Success For Himself  [23:00] Why Kevin Is So Vested In Mentorship [25:19] Diversity & Inclusion Initiatives Within The Music Industry  [28:46] The Impact Web 3.0 Will Have On The Music Industry [31:20] Will Virtual Concerts Replace Live Shows? [32:30] Five-Year Predictions For Music Touring [34:43] How Many Days Will Kevin Spend At Shows In 2022? [35:40] How Do You Find The Next Musical Star? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Kevin Shivers, Instagram: @bellmeadallstar     Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands _____ Transcription: The Future Of Live Music with Kevin Shivers, Partner at WME Kevin Shivers 00:00 You gotta ask yourself after arenas, then what? Where are you going after that? I mean, like, you know, you might already have that plan in your head, but like these careers are, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Dan Runcie 00:18 Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast! I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Kevin Shivers. He's a partner at WME, and he represents some of the biggest artists in the game like Tyler, the Creator, Summer Walker, and more. We talked about how he was able to maximize the big year that Tyler had last year. I feel like Tyler headlined so many music festivals, and had so many appearances. Kevin talks about what it took to make that happen, especially given how turbulent things were with COVID, and all of the restrictions and variants that came through and how he was able to still make it happen. We talk more broadly about music festivals in the strategy that Kevin has for making sure his clients can get certain buildings on the roster. We also talked about Summer Walker and how he was able to do the same for her. Then, we talked more broadly about what it's like as a black executive, especially in representing artists. There are not too many people at agents that are at Kevin's level that look like Kevin, so we talked about that. Some of the advocacy work and mentoring and giving back that he's done and he's prioritized in his career, and so much more. It was great to have Shivers on here. I hope you enjoy this. Here's my chat with Kevin Shivers. All right, today, we got one of the most powerful agents in the game. Kevin Shivers partner at WME. Welcome to the pod, feels like we're long overdue. Kevin Shivers 01:49 Thanks for having me, Dan. It's a pleasure.  Dan Runcie 01:51 Yeah, it's funny because I feel like this time of the year, I always see the festival posters come up for all of the music festivals. And I'm sure you've seen the one where they replace the names of the festivals with the agencies that they're all part of. And whenever I see the WME, I'm like: Man, Kevin was on his game this year.  Kevin Shivers 02:10 It's definitely not all me, man. There are so many great agents at work here. Happy to be a part of this team.  Dan Runcie 02:15 So you've been in the game for a while now. But let's take a step back. Because I know you've been working at the agency for some time. But what was it that first attracted you to the business? Kevin Shivers 02:27 I had to say it was my mother. When I was a kid growing up, my mother would drag my brother out of movies every weekend. And that's the first time in my head where I got: Wait, I would love to work in entertainment because I love the movie so much. My mother loves movies so much. Even during COVID, she was still going to the movies. And that's like the really, my first interest into the business. When I graduated from high school, I went to college at University of Texas. I majored in film with the plan of moving out to LA and being a producer. And I did move out to Los Angeles, I started interning at The Weinstein Company at the time. And then I went on to this Company Cost of Beanie films, they had a deal at Weinstein. And from there, I kind of entered into the film business, and I got my first taste into: This is not for me, this is not what I want to do in my life. Partly because I was really bad at my job, like I tried, but I didn't want to read 30 scripts a week. This is not what I wanted to do. And then I pivoted, I left there. And I went to this place called Cats Media Group, which is like they did TV sales. And I knew that, that wasn't long term. And I went there to stay in Los Angeles, and to figure it out. And from there, I figured out I wanted to be an agent and WME. I had some experience in music and in Austin like going to shows. I knew a promoter, this guy Charles Adler, Ramsay Three. And at the time, it was the William Morris Agency. And that's my first interest into entertainment.  Dan Runcie 03:56 Nice. And I feel like the past year and a half, almost two years now. It's probably been unlike any other time period since you've been in this. What's that been like for you? Kevin Shivers 04:05 You mean like COVID, and the ways impacted shows? It's been wild, right? Like if I go back to 2020, there was so much going on in the picture of even the world and in all of our lives. You had George Floyd, you had Trump and you had COVID and uncertainty. So 2020, being an agent, it was moving shows from the beginning of the year to the end of the year. That doesn't work for all the social things that are going on in the world to 2021. The first six months were kind of the same of 2020, and the first light in the tunnel I think was Rolling Loud, like Rolling Loud played, and then Lollapalooza was maybe a week or two later. And then you start seeing Austin City Limits and Outside Lands playing off in some tours. And then we started; it started to make sense, then Omicron came along, and we're like back for a period of time back at square one. But it seems like 2022 is gonna bring a lot of joy, you know. Shows are planned, Superbowl is happening in a few days, Pro Sports are going along. So it seems a lot of positivity. Dan Runcie 05:10 What do you think will be different for 2022 and 2023 thereafter? Because I feel like it'll be this gradual shift where eventually things will start to feel like the touring schedule is maybe back to somewhat of what it was before COVID. But how long do you think that will really be like? What do you think will be the first year that we can look back at and say: Okay, this is the first year that doesn't feel like it was impacted in any way? Kevin Shivers 05:36 I think there's some hope in 2022. If we just changed the way that we’re thinking that this is the new world. Things might pop up, the virus might flare back up and flare back down. But let's try to figure out how to move forward. I think I'm starting to see that people are out and about in shows, they are playing sports, you know. The NFL season went through the whole season, they had ups and downs. And I think that like we're starting to see some positivity, lots of hope for 23. Hopefully 23, we get back to some sort of, or we get to some sort of a new normal, where we're living in this new world, and we're just going with the punches. Dan Runcie 06:12 I hear that. So I think the good thing for you though is that even, until we got to that point, you've been moving a lot. And I know that Tyler the Creator is one of your bigger clients and 2021 was a big year for him. Headlined a bunch of festivals, dropped his album. What was it like making sure that everything could line up and that you could have everything set for him despite everything else that was going on with the touring business? Kevin Shivers 06:38 First of all, I want to say Tyler's a star and a one of a kind of talent, and he knows exactly what he wants. I'm lucky to be a part of his team, and he has an excellent team around them. It starts with the managers Chris and Kelly Clancy, who are amazing people. The business manager, Joe Colone, amazing lawyer, my partner James Ruby, who does International Day watch after her at the agency and all the other people that touchTyler. But 21 was a great year; we got the headline target the headlines for festivals, but it was also we had some goals from, it was also challenging. First thing is the record comes, the record is amazing and it's also finding a window when we can go on sale when COVID is not surging, and I think that the team and I,we all got lucky because we found a window.We knew Tyler was going to headline Lollapalooza and the goal was after you get all the media, the media hype coming from Lolla. We knew he was going to bring an amazing show; that Monday after Lolla, finding that window where we can go on sale and luckily for us, no COVID spikes out Lolla, nothing crazy. And there's no COVID spikes in the world. So that was the first thing, right? I think the second thing when we thought about touring, is trying to find the markets for him to play Tyler, somebody that wants to push the envelopes. And we ended up putting up 35 arenas, breaking in some new markets. I saw last night a show in San Diego. He was like: I could have done 50 shows. I mean, granted, it was nice to have, you know, the tour. And I was like: Okay, we'll see how you feel at, like, night 33 or something. But we were able to break into new markets. Columbus, Vegas, El Paso, Pittsburgh, to name a few. I think the third thing is that Tyler really, really wanted to give the fans the ultimate experience. This is the lineup: Teezo Touchdown, Vince Staples, Kal Uchis. And I think the last thing is, you know, making sure that we hit the sweet spot in pricing. So we, you know, give the fans a place where they can feel happy, a place where they can buy tickets, but also maximizing the gross, keeping ticket sales in the gross. And this was a joint effort with the managers, Chris and Kelly, Michelle Bernstein, who's an excellent marketing ticketing person and AG team led by Cody over there. Dan Runcie 08:56 Talk to me a bit more about the new markets and picking those.You mentioned in Pittsburgh, you mentioned El Paso. What are the data that insights are the field that you look for when you're like: Hey, this is somewhere that we want to consider going to that we haven't gone before. And if we do it, is this the type of venue that we should go in this market as opposed to somewhere like LA or New York where he's already proved himself?  Kevin Shivers 09:20 Well, I think there's a few things, so one is whenever Tyler, any of my clients, I'm always trying to figure out, I want them to play as many places that they can. Just reach all the fans and maximize the opportunity we're on the road because if it's a Tyler recording or whoever it is, or Cody, you're not gonna get to see them every single year. That is a unique experience. But to answer your direct question, it's one looking at the data if it's from Spotify, or our past sales. Two is looking at the markets and seeing if there's a building or venue that makes sense like Columbus. We know that's a place, there's a college town where Tyler's played there before, played there, sold out. I think a smaller room on the onsale, knew there was demand, didn't realize, I mean, the Columbus sales are insane. But this didn't realize like: Wow, that's, I mean that is really like that's a smaller market that has turned into a market, right? I think it's looking at our diverse lineup of talent on the bill, you know, going to a place like El Paso and looking at: Oh, there's probably going to be some Kali fans, and Vince fans and Teezo fans, right? That's a good place. And that's also a place that doesn't get a lot of entertainment. So like, and that ended up being like a home run. So it's like, kind of looking at the whole picture of what you got and talking to a lot of people that are smarter than you in kind of coming up with a plan. And also just working with good people that have a point of view. Dan Runcie 10:47 What are the trade-offs that you have to make for those kinds of decisions? Because I imagine that there's the ones that do cross the threshold to be like: Okay, let's make this happen. But you know, kind of like you were saying before, it's tough to try to do 50 shows in a specific short amount of run or whatever it may be. What are some of those considerations you may have to make in terms of the markets that you can't pick? Or the ones you know, that you may not be able to put in this time, right? Kevin Shivers 11:11 I think there are a few things. One, it's like really talking to your clients and letting them know, we might, we're going to try to go in this market. This possibility, it might not go the way that we want, but we have to, to me if you're not trying if you're not putting risk on the line, and what are we doing, right? It's like, I'm actually somebody who's okay with failing, right? And I’m not saying that we fail or anything, but I'm okay with doing that risk for the bigger reward. So it's like really, really like getting in there and talking to them about, you know, the strategy, right? And like, the goal, I think the goal should be like, when you go out every two, three years is gaining new fans, gaining that new network. Dan Runcie 11:50 Right, especially now. I feel like for someone like him, it's probably been interesting. I know, you've been with him to see the rise and just to see how the fan base has continued to evolve over time. So I imagine he probably even sees things where he's like: Okay, these are the Tyler fans that ,you know, have been with me since the Globin days. If I go to this city versus, you know, you go to this other city. They may not have discovered me as much until Flower Boy or something like that. I'm sure he does. Yeah, it's fascinating. And I think with him too, if we talk a bit more about the festival side of things, he obviously was a headliner, as you mentioned, his Lollapalooza show was broadcasted. I didn't go to the show, but I was able to see it through Hulu, because they had it coming through there. When you're trying to have someone like him, obviously, you have many different artists and they have different levels that they may want to perform at. And ideally, you want to have everyone maximizing and performing at the highest level or being like the highest row on that festival poster. But for someone like Tyler, is it going into the year like: Hey, headline or buster; if we can't be a headliner for this festival, we're not going to do it. Or does it depend on who some of the others are? What are those conversations like?  Kevin Shivers 13:07 I think when you start a campaign with any artist, it's just like sitting down with the team and figuring out what the goals are, right? And it's all a trajectory and building on the last. I think you want to, the goal is always to build on the last time you were out, to build on the last year, right? And having that conversation. And you know, different artists have different things. Some people want to specifically target these particular festivals, or you know, you're going out in his window, and you could maybe use a festival to route in and out to get the gross-up for the whole tour. It's just like, really just, it's really spending time with the client spending time with the manager to find out, figure out what the goal is in maximizing the opportunities. Dan Runcie 13:49 Is it any tougher to do that though? The way that artists can just rise so fast now, especially in the streaming era. Because I know that there's normally the standard, you know, you do your clubs, you can do a, you know, ballrooms or amphitheaters, and then maybe if you get to arenas or stadiums, that's their trajectory. But with people just getting so big, so fast, does that change the dynamic? Or it's like: Okay, how do you still balance what they may have done last time and use that as a reference point versus how quickly they can rise in this era? Kevin Shivers 14:19 I mean, look, you have to have a point of view, and you have to have a plan. And you have to have some thoughts, right? And I think that people can really jump up really, really quickly. But we like to use this thing: don't skip steps, right? You know, sometimes if, you know, you can go play in an arena, why not go play multiple nights at a smaller room and build the momentum, build a buzz, meet people on the streets, leaving, not being able to get to the show. So that when you come back around, you still have gas in the tank. I mean, there's no one size fits all plan. It's like, you have to just know who you're working with, spend time and really kind of draw that. Draw that sketch up and map it out and let it listen. A plan is just a, it's just a roadmap. It can be amended along the way. There's no like set in stone thing, but other than like, no knowing where you want to go, knowing what you think, you know, going to be doing the next year, the next five years. That is what's most important. Dan Runcie 15:13 That makes sense. And that reminds me of something I heard. I think it was Olivia Rodrigo, who said in some recent interview when he announced her tour. And someone must have asked her something along the lines of: Hey, you had one of the biggest years in pop music this past year, could you have done arenas? And I think she said that same line, you said: I don't want to skip any steps. This is where that is. So I think that's something that definitely rings true. And we're seeing examples of that. Kevin Shivers 15:39 Yes. And you gotta ask yourself after arenas, then what? Where are you going after that? I mean, like, you know, you might already have that plan in your head, but like these careers are, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Dan Runcie 15:49 So what do you think are some of the mistakes that artists can make? Like, I mean, you don't have to drop any names. You don't got to put anybody on blast. But is there anyone that you think maybe made a touring misstep? Or there's something where you can look back and be like: Ah, if they had done that a little differently, things could have worked out a little bit, you know, whether it's better or worse, or however for them. Kevin Shivers 16:09 I think sometimes when people overthink it and end up doing nothing, that's like a bummer for everybody. That's a bummer for the artist. That's a bummer for the fan, that's a bummer for the culture, like, like you're hot, you're popping right now. We really need to see you really, really need to see you show up and pull up on us and see what you have. I think that, that's a mistake, not a mistake, but that's just a bummer for everybody. We want to see, we want to see you do your thing. And I would love it if instead of doing nothing that artists, sometimes people would do something. Dan Runcie 16:39 So you think part of it is that there's a hesitancy to try to capture the moment, or sometimes they can be a bit more resolute or hesitant to do things when there is an opportunity to go back out there. Kevin Shivers 16:51 Or they just don't know, or they just are trying to get it perfect. And like, you know, you're going to we're all going to make mistakes, there's going to be ups and downs. I think sometimes you just got to go play, you know, you got to give the fans what they want. Dan Runcie 17:04 Do you think any of this has become any more challenging in the social media era? Because one thing that I've heard both on the talent side is that artists are even more so particular about how everything looks from a live perspective, because that shot that goes on Instagram or that shot that goes on Tik Tok, that influences ticket sales, especially from, you know, whether it's the first show or whatever it is. Do you feel like artists are feeling like they need to have things more perfect even though deep down, you know, that it shouldn't be that way? Kevin Shivers 17:33 I mean, it's got to be really, really tough because the cameras are always on somebody always, you know, whether you like it or not, is documenting things that you do. So I think that I couldn't even imagine how much pressure that is and how tough that has to be. You know that social media can be good. And there can be some other sides where you're like: Wow, this is tough. Dan Runcie 17:52 Yeah, I know, we've talked a lot about Tyler and about hip hop overall. But I know another one of the major artists you represent is Summer Walker. And you know, she had a big year, last year as well. And I wanted the differences whether you're planning a tour for, or you're planning live events, in general, for R&B artists, as opposed to someone in hip hop. Kevin Shivers 18:14 I don't think there's really many differences, I just think you have to just, it goes back to the same. There’s no any artist planning and really just get, you know, in figuring out what the goals that they have and how you can best service them, right? I don't really think there's a different strategy or a different lane. I think if you love Summer Walker, you love Summer Walker, you're gonna go out and see it, right? And she has, she has an incredible fan base. Dan Runcie 18:40 Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Because one of the things I was wondering with someone like her.Knowing how passionate her fan base is, I was wondering if there was a connection of like: Oh, you know, the streams may show this and the data may show this, but because of how R&B fans are, there may be a bit more likelihood that that could translate to ticket sales or purchases as opposed to other genres. Kevin Shivers 19:02 You know, I think the fans are going to come out that they love somebody and Summer respects our fans. People like Summer Walker followers, or they just, they love her. I think they're just going to come out and show up and see her play. Dan Runcie 19:14 Now. That's real, that makes sense. So for you, I mean, I know, you got a full roster, and you're always making sure that you can maximize them to the best of their abilities. So how do you measure success for yourself as a partner and as someone that's representing them on their behalf?  Kevin Shivers 19:30 The answer is really simple: Helping others, right? I got into this business because I wanted to help artists grow. And it's like, it starts with the clients like you start thinking about, about people that I work with, like: What can I do to help them? What can I do to help them grow or give them everything that they need? Are we, you know, from last year to this year? Are we showing up every day to help them get to that next level? That's the first thing. I think also the way I measure success. It's like the same thing with helping others. Like it starts for me every day when my assistant Ebony, I think she's gonna be a great executive one day, but am I showing up for her? Do I slow down enough to answer her questions? Do I mentor her? Do I spend time with her? Because like, that's important to me. We have many, many amazing young agents that work here. Am I showing up enough to help them sign up clients? Am I giving them what they need? I think you know, measuring success. Is everybody around you doing well? Are you doing what's good for the organization? I co-run hip hop with Zach, Isaac, Caroline and James Rubby. And Caroline's always saying we got to take care of youngs, you know, it's Justin neighbor's getting what he needs? Is Sarah and Ronnie getting what they need? And then I think it's just, it's really about creating that culture, creating a universe, that the people you will arise into the next level of being selfless. And then also from a DNI perspective of like: What diverse people can we grow? Can we hire? Are we retaining them? These are all the ways that I measure success. I try not to look at what other people are doing. Because I mean, it doesn't really matter. I want to make sure that the organization and the people around me are set up for success. Dan Runcie 21:14 I hear that. And I think a lot of the themes you mentioned there align with mentorship, and whether it's being a mentor or support for the artists that are looking to you for guidance, your co-workers and your colleagues. Can you talk a little bit more about why that's so important to you? Because even in reading and hearing other interviews, I know you've been active on that front, making sure that you can use your platform and where you are to pass the torch and help others along the way. Kevin Shivers 21:40 I think mentorship is one of these things like, if we're not mentoring, then what are we doing? Why are we even showing up? You have to always be trying to look out for other people. I've had people that looked out for me and my career, people that still look out for me. And I think that is one of the key things. One of the reasons that makes me want to get up every day and come into the office is, like, helping others. I think that's one of the reasons why we're put on this earth to help people. A non-negotiable thing is mentorship. I mean, the crazy fact about, I'll go do an interview, or I'll do a panel and everybody that writes to me on IG or LinkedIn, I write everybody back, everybody. I mean, I probably send more people to the HR department here for jobs than anybody. Because I just want everybody back. I think that's important, because I was once the young kid who wanted to figure this out. And like I didn't know, I had no clue and people helped me. So I think that's a very important aspect of the job. Dan Runcie 22:35 100%. And even on a personal level, I remember the first time you reached out to me, Hey, love what you're doing. Hey, how can I help? And you're just like: Oh, who do you want to interview? Oh, I was listening to them yesterday, boom, let's get this done. So even on a personal level, I need you out. You're looking out for me, man. I appreciate that.  Kevin Shivers 22:52 Yeah, I mean, well, you're doing it. I listen to your podcast every week. I think it's amazing. I think what you're doing for the culture is great. And I just wanted to get to know you and just to help where I can and, and that's just, that's what I think is important. Dan Runcie 23:05 Definitely, definitely. And one of the things that you had put out, because a couple years back, but it really stuck out to me was this was right after George Floyd's murder and the music industry had the show must be paused response. And you had written these guest posts on Pollstar and you were talking about how this industry just needs to do better by its black execs specifically on the recruiting front. And I know you were just talking about how, you know, you're always pushing things forward to HR. And I'm sure this must be really personal for you as well, you are one of the few folks that looks like you in the position that you have in this whole industry. So I'd love to hear how you feel like the industry has responded since everything had happened after George Floyd's murder and the response to where we are now in 2022. Kevin Shivers 23:57 You know, in response to your comment about I wanted a person who looks like me in the industry. I always say to everybody, I'm amazing, but I'm not that amazing. There's, there should be more people that look like me doing what I do and and you know, partners in hire, right? And I think we still have a lot of work to do. There's good news though. There's positive conversation around DNI, people are aware, people are aware that there needs to be more black people and more diverse people need to have more opportunities. I still think that we need to keep pushing the envelope, we still have a lot more to do in terms of hiring and creating opportunities for black people. The organization's know they have to do better, but they have to buck the old status quo. They have to go outside of the norm. And today to some people, it might be like: Oh, we're taking a risk. No, DNI has to be inside of your lifeline, inside of your blood, inside of your everyday practices. It's not something that you can just talk about once a quarter, you gotta live it, you got to be in it every day. And I believe that the black people need to be promoted, they need to be elevated. They need to be given the same opportunities and shots. When we were interviewing for jobs, I think in any, in any industry, not just entertainment, you need to be interviewing black people, people of color, LGBTQ, there just needs to be more opportunity. We need more Sylvia Rhone's, more Ethiopia's, more tons Jay-Z and Def Jam. We need more leaders, more partners. I mean, we have to just keep our foot on the gas, keep pushing the envelope because this, we're not there yet. But we're going in the right direction. And we need to keep the momentum. Dan Runcie 25:30 Right. And I think even an example of that, the folks you just mentioned, I think a lot of folks in this industry are all on a first name basis. And as incredible as all those folks are, how do we get to the point where they're not on a first name basis, because they aren't just the few black execs in there. I mean, it's definitely going to continue to take time. And I think whether it's conversations like this, or the efforts you're doing will help. But I'm hopeful that it can get there eventually.  Kevin Shivers 25:55 I'm hopeful, too. I think we got to stay targeted and focus. But also at the same time, remember, like, this just didn't happen overnight, right? It's not going to change overnight. But we have to like, we have to keep, we have to stay on this because it can change and it needs to be better. Dan Runcie 26:11 Definitely. So let's switch gears a bit. Let's talk a little bit about the future, specifically with regards to touring and technology and what things will look like in, the potential with Web 3.0 and the metaverse. Because now you have agencies that are specifically I'm sure WME likely also has a division where they focus specifically on digital environments, or getting artists lined up on that perspective. How do you look at that? Specifically, with the artists you have on your roster, what the potentials are for them in these digital worlds. Kevin Shivers 26:50 I think Web 3.0 is just it's massive, huge, huge opportunity. You know, if you think about the evolution started in virtual, went over to Fortnite, but I just think it brings control back to the artists in a way. Artists had an act like this the whole time, these music artists, they've had fan clubs, they've had social media, but what Web 3.0 does, it gives more control to them. It's gonna give them more power, but like, it kind of cuts out the middleman and I think you know, things are gonna change in the next six months, next five years, it's gonna be an exciting world. If you look at what Coachella did, by selling the NFT, a lifetime Coachella pass. I mean, I think artists are gonna come up with these things where, you know, if you want to be in the front row of my show, here's the NFT for the chance to buy the front row tickets, or maybe it just goes inside of there. And they figure out what to promote, but I just think like, it's an exciting time. Like, it's the, it's endless. I was just on the phone with A Jones the other day, I love what he's doing with Royal. And I think the deal that he did with Nas and Antony Silay is, like,amazing; that looks like where things are headed. I mean, it's just, you know, like any of these things, it's gonna be ups and downs, right? In the Web 3.0, but I just think the opportunity is endless. Dan Runcie 28:01 Yeah, things are early, things are also moving really fast. Six months from now, it's gonna look completely different. And I am excited for the artists that are taking advantage early. I feel like I can already imagine Camp Flog Gnaw Carnival having some type of digital environment or some type of experience in the metaverse. Kevin Shivers 28:21 I'm sure it will, I'm sure Lollapalooza and some of these other properties. That's where they're headed. I mean, it's gonna be a really exciting time. I just hope people get off the couch, you still come out to show. Dan Runcie 28:35 Is that a concern you have though? Like, do you wonder about that in the future? Kevin Shivers 28:39 No, no, I was just joking. I mean, I don't think anything can replace the live experience, just like the Zooms are great, right? But I think when you're in a meeting with somebody, it's 10 times better. And I think a concert is 100 times better. I love, I love going to festivals, I've been to them all over the world. And I love seeing the reactions in real time on people's faces from their favorite artists hidden in the stage. So I don't think anything can replace it. I think it's going to only enhance the experience. Dan Runcie 29:07 Agreed. That's what I always go back to. Everything in these experiences are additive and isn't a replacement for anything. And I think it'll probably just force more creativity for every aspect, because you're not just trying to have something be a catch all. So I think I'm interested to see how it'll continue to shape live performances and what that can look like from the, you know, the IRL experience. Yeah. And on that note, do you have any predictions for what you think the next three to five years or so will look like specifically in the lifespace? I mean, pandemic notwithstanding, I mean, obviously, I think we'll continue to see the after effects of that, but any type of, you know, evolutions are any type of future changes that you think will see over time. Kevin Shivers 29:51 Yeah, I think 2022 is going to be bigger than we thought. I think that hopefully, I think we're headed to a healthy tour environment. I think there's going to be new players in terms of buyers and festivals. And I think the fan experience will that's going to be the thing of the future. I think everyone has realized they have to zero in on the fan from artists curated weekends and festivals to I think even super service in the fan. Think about this, think about a world where service lets you buy a ticket, has a car that picks you up, dinner reservations, great seats, even find you a babysitter.I think that's where we're going, we're going to this place, we're like: Okay, I can't even be, I'm busy. I didn't want to deal with this, boom, hit a button. And this is where we're going. I think that's exciting. Because you know, getting inside of the mind of the fan, what they really want is going to be the next evolution.  Dan Runcie 30:42 Yeah, even you mapping that out. If you literally could press one button and solve that, I think you'd also just increase the amount of people that can come through, right? You mentioned the babysitter, the amount of people that have young kids, and it's like, you know, just the thought of them needed like, oh, you know, we got to find someone for this to cover for this night. Like, yeah, if all that can be taken care of. Kevin Shivers 31:00 Because I think people love live music, and live music is such a treat. But when you think about the hurdles you have to do, you got to put on some clothes, maybe, you know, show starts at seven, get homework, feed your kids, do this, do that. And if you could just take some of that away from them. That's like, you know, bringing the fan experience to a new level. Dan Runcie 31:21 Definitely. So I know that you're always on the go with festivals. And you know, I know you love going into them. But I know it's also for your work as well. If you have to guess, how many shows do you think you'll go to in 2022? Kevin Shivers 31:33 I can tell you this. I'd rather answer this way. How many days I plan on hitting a lot of festivals in 2022. So I think I'm going to be, I call it 50 to 60 days watching music, right? That's what I'd say. Dan Runcie 31:48 Okay. Yeah. All right. And even that, I mean, that's a lot more than the average person. But I mean, it's just incredible. Because you get to just see all the fine tunes, you get to just see everything. And like you mentioned, this is interesting, you're traveling all across the world for this stuff. Kevin Shivers 32:02 Yeah. I mean, that's, that's one of the reasons I love doing what I do. I mean, like, really, I get to go see live music in different parts of the world. I mean, I can't even imagine anything better than that. Dan Runcie 32:12 Yeah. So last question. Before we let you go. I know we talked a lot about Tyler. And I know from our conversations, just the uniqueness of you seeing that star power and star potential, even from the first time you connect it. How do you find that next tile? Or how do you find that thing to know? Okay, yeah, this is the one that we need for this next generation.  Kevin Shivers 32:34 Oh, wow. I think when I'm looking to sign somebody, I'm looking for somebody that has a unique point of view, for somebody that is fearless, and then wants to do the work. Dan Runcie 32:43 That makes sense. Hear that man. Hey, before we let you go, man, this was great. I'm glad you could come through and make this happen. But is there anything else you want to plug? Or let the Trapital audience know about it? Kevin Shivers 32:54 I think everybody should go out and see some shows this year. I think 2022 is going to be a good year, and then one thing I want to say is to somebody who wants a career in entertainment, I think you should go for it. I think you should move to LA, move to New York, move to Atlanta, move to Nashville. Call, email some people; call, email me. I'll probably write you back pretty soon and just go for your dreams. Dan Runcie 33:15 What's your email address? Kevin Shivers 33:17 Kshivers@wmeagency.com. It's all good. Dan Runcie 33:23 Now appreciate that, man. I welcome man. Thanks for coming through this as a pleasure. Kevin Shivers 33:27 I appreciate you Dan. Dan Runcie 33:31 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, posted to your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review and tell people why you liked the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. It’s no secret that touring is the lifeblood of most modern-day musical artists. But while most fans only see the finished product — a head-bobbing performance at Coachella or a sold-out nightclub — few get a glimpse into the behind-the-scenes work being done by professionals like Kevin Shivers, a partner in WME’s music division. Let this interview with Kevin be your inside look at what goes into the live performances that fuel the entire music industry.


Kevin has been with WME since 2008 after a stint in Hollywood. While with WME, he’s worked with stars such as Tyler The Creator, Summer Walker, Kid Cudi, and plenty more on their touring strategies. Of course, Kevin’s world — much like every other industry — was dealt a massive blow during the past two years. But with live shows seemingly back (knock on wood), Kevin has his eyes toward the future.


And the future is an even better fan experience, says Kevin. NFTs, virtual concerts, removing the frictions of going to a real-life show — these are all ongoing evolutions that will better connect superfans with their favorite artists. We covered this near-term future in our interview, plus a whole lot more.


Episode Highlights

[2:15] How Kevin Broke Into The Entertainment Business 

[4:00] How Has the Music Business Changed In The Past Two Years? 

[5:25] The Go-Forward Plan For 2022

[6:40] What Spurred Tyler The Creator’s Big 2021

[9:35] What Data Goes Into Entering New Touring Markets 

[13:10] Festival Strategies With Artists

[14:56] How Has Streaming Changed Touring Trajectory

[17:10] The Biggest Touring Mistake

[18:30] Social Media’s Influence On Touring

[19:30] Touring Difference Between Hip Hop And R&B

[21:02] How Kevin Measure Success For Himself 

[23:00] Why Kevin Is So Vested In Mentorship

[25:19] Diversity & Inclusion Initiatives Within The Music Industry 

[28:46] The Impact Web 3.0 Will Have On The Music Industry

[31:20] Will Virtual Concerts Replace Live Shows?

[32:30] Five-Year Predictions For Music Touring

[34:43] How Many Days Will Kevin Spend At Shows In 2022?

[35:40] How Do You Find The Next Musical Star?


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Kevin Shivers, Instagram: @bellmeadallstar

 

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 



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Transcription: The Future Of Live Music with Kevin Shivers, Partner at WME


Kevin Shivers 00:00

You gotta ask yourself after arenas, then what? Where are you going after that? I mean, like, you know, you might already have that plan in your head, but like these careers are, it's a marathon, not a sprint.


Dan Runcie 00:18

Hey, welcome to the Trapital podcast! I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Kevin Shivers. He's a partner at WME, and he represents some of the biggest artists in the game like Tyler, the Creator, Summer Walker, and more. We talked about how he was able to maximize the big year that Tyler had last year. I feel like Tyler headlined so many music festivals, and had so many appearances. Kevin talks about what it took to make that happen, especially given how turbulent things were with COVID, and all of the restrictions and variants that came through and how he was able to still make it happen. We talk more broadly about music festivals in the strategy that Kevin has for making sure his clients can get certain buildings on the roster. We also talked about Summer Walker and how he was able to do the same for her. Then, we talked more broadly about what it's like as a black executive, especially in representing artists. There are not too many people at agents that are at Kevin's level that look like Kevin, so we talked about that. Some of the advocacy work and mentoring and giving back that he's done and he's prioritized in his career, and so much more. It was great to have Shivers on here. I hope you enjoy this. Here's my chat with Kevin Shivers. All right, today, we got one of the most powerful agents in the game. Kevin Shivers partner at WME. Welcome to the pod, feels like we're long overdue.


Kevin Shivers 01:49

Thanks for having me, Dan. It's a pleasure. 


Dan Runcie 01:51

Yeah, it's funny because I feel like this time of the year, I always see the festival posters come up for all of the music festivals. And I'm sure you've seen the one where they replace the names of the festivals with the agencies that they're all part of. And whenever I see the WME, I'm like: Man, Kevin was on his game this year. 


Kevin Shivers 02:10

It's definitely not all me, man. There are so many great agents at work here. Happy to be a part of this team. 


Dan Runcie 02:15

So you've been in the game for a while now. But let's take a step back. Because I know you've been working at the agency for some time. But what was it that first attracted you to the business?


Kevin Shivers 02:27

I had to say it was my mother. When I was a kid growing up, my mother would drag my brother out of movies every weekend. And that's the first time in my head where I got: Wait, I would love to work in entertainment because I love the movie so much. My mother loves movies so much. Even during COVID, she was still going to the movies. And that's like the really, my first interest into the business. When I graduated from high school, I went to college at University of Texas. I majored in film with the plan of moving out to LA and being a producer. And I did move out to Los Angeles, I started interning at The Weinstein Company at the time. And then I went on to this Company Cost of Beanie films, they had a deal at Weinstein. And from there, I kind of entered into the film business, and I got my first taste into: This is not for me, this is not what I want to do in my life. Partly because I was really bad at my job, like I tried, but I didn't want to read 30 scripts a week. This is not what I wanted to do. And then I pivoted, I left there. And I went to this place called Cats Media Group, which is like they did TV sales. And I knew that, that wasn't long term. And I went there to stay in Los Angeles, and to figure it out. And from there, I figured out I wanted to be an agent and WME. I had some experience in music and in Austin like going to shows. I knew a promoter, this guy Charles Adler, Ramsay Three. And at the time, it was the William Morris Agency. And that's my first interest into entertainment. 


Dan Runcie 03:56

Nice. And I feel like the past year and a half, almost two years now. It's probably been unlike any other time period since you've been in this. What's that been like for you?


Kevin Shivers 04:05

You mean like COVID, and the ways impacted shows? It's been wild, right? Like if I go back to 2020, there was so much going on in the picture of even the world and in all of our lives. You had George Floyd, you had Trump and you had COVID and uncertainty. So 2020, being an agent, it was moving shows from the beginning of the year to the end of the year. That doesn't work for all the social things that are going on in the world to 2021. The first six months were kind of the same of 2020, and the first light in the tunnel I think was Rolling Loud, like Rolling Loud played, and then Lollapalooza was maybe a week or two later. And then you start seeing Austin City Limits and Outside Lands playing off in some tours. And then we started; it started to make sense, then Omicron came along, and we're like back for a period of time back at square one. But it seems like 2022 is gonna bring a lot of joy, you know. Shows are planned, Superbowl is happening in a few days, Pro Sports are going along. So it seems a lot of positivity.


Dan Runcie 05:10

What do you think will be different for 2022 and 2023 thereafter? Because I feel like it'll be this gradual shift where eventually things will start to feel like the touring schedule is maybe back to somewhat of what it was before COVID. But how long do you think that will really be like? What do you think will be the first year that we can look back at and say: Okay, this is the first year that doesn't feel like it was impacted in any way?


Kevin Shivers 05:36

I think there's some hope in 2022. If we just changed the way that we’re thinking that this is the new world. Things might pop up, the virus might flare back up and flare back down. But let's try to figure out how to move forward. I think I'm starting to see that people are out and about in shows, they are playing sports, you know. The NFL season went through the whole season, they had ups and downs. And I think that like we're starting to see some positivity, lots of hope for 23. Hopefully 23, we get back to some sort of, or we get to some sort of a new normal, where we're living in this new world, and we're just going with the punches.


Dan Runcie 06:12

I hear that. So I think the good thing for you though is that even, until we got to that point, you've been moving a lot. And I know that Tyler the Creator is one of your bigger clients and 2021 was a big year for him. Headlined a bunch of festivals, dropped his album. What was it like making sure that everything could line up and that you could have everything set for him despite everything else that was going on with the touring business?


Kevin Shivers 06:38

First of all, I want to say Tyler's a star and a one of a kind of talent, and he knows exactly what he wants. I'm lucky to be a part of his team, and he has an excellent team around them. It starts with the managers Chris and Kelly Clancy, who are amazing people. The business manager, Joe Colone, amazing lawyer, my partner James Ruby, who does International Day watch after her at the agency and all the other people that touchTyler. But 21 was a great year; we got the headline target the headlines for festivals, but it was also we had some goals from, it was also challenging. First thing is the record comes, the record is amazing and it's also finding a window when we can go on sale when COVID is not surging, and I think that the team and I,we all got lucky because we found a window.We knew Tyler was going to headline Lollapalooza and the goal was after you get all the media, the media hype coming from Lolla. We knew he was going to bring an amazing show; that Monday after Lolla, finding that window where we can go on sale and luckily for us, no COVID spikes out Lolla, nothing crazy. And there's no COVID spikes in the world. So that was the first thing, right? I think the second thing when we thought about touring, is trying to find the markets for him to play Tyler, somebody that wants to push the envelopes. And we ended up putting up 35 arenas, breaking in some new markets. I saw last night a show in San Diego. He was like: I could have done 50 shows. I mean, granted, it was nice to have, you know, the tour. And I was like: Okay, we'll see how you feel at, like, night 33 or something. But we were able to break into new markets. Columbus, Vegas, El Paso, Pittsburgh, to name a few. I think the third thing is that Tyler really, really wanted to give the fans the ultimate experience. This is the lineup: Teezo Touchdown, Vince Staples, Kal Uchis. And I think the last thing is, you know, making sure that we hit the sweet spot in pricing. So we, you know, give the fans a place where they can feel happy, a place where they can buy tickets, but also maximizing the gross, keeping ticket sales in the gross. And this was a joint effort with the managers, Chris and Kelly, Michelle Bernstein, who's an excellent marketing ticketing person and AG team led by Cody over there.


Dan Runcie 08:56

Talk to me a bit more about the new markets and picking those.You mentioned in Pittsburgh, you mentioned El Paso. What are the data that insights are the field that you look for when you're like: Hey, this is somewhere that we want to consider going to that we haven't gone before. And if we do it, is this the type of venue that we should go in this market as opposed to somewhere like LA or New York where he's already proved himself? 


Kevin Shivers 09:20

Well, I think there's a few things, so one is whenever Tyler, any of my clients, I'm always trying to figure out, I want them to play as many places that they can. Just reach all the fans and maximize the opportunity we're on the road because if it's a Tyler recording or whoever it is, or Cody, you're not gonna get to see them every single year. That is a unique experience. But to answer your direct question, it's one looking at the data if it's from Spotify, or our past sales. Two is looking at the markets and seeing if there's a building or venue that makes sense like Columbus. We know that's a place, there's a college town where Tyler's played there before, played there, sold out. I think a smaller room on the onsale, knew there was demand, didn't realize, I mean, the Columbus sales are insane. But this didn't realize like: Wow, that's, I mean that is really like that's a smaller market that has turned into a market, right? I think it's looking at our diverse lineup of talent on the bill, you know, going to a place like El Paso and looking at: Oh, there's probably going to be some Kali fans, and Vince fans and Teezo fans, right? That's a good place. And that's also a place that doesn't get a lot of entertainment. So like, and that ended up being like a home run. So it's like, kind of looking at the whole picture of what you got and talking to a lot of people that are smarter than you in kind of coming up with a plan. And also just working with good people that have a point of view.


Dan Runcie 10:47

What are the trade-offs that you have to make for those kinds of decisions? Because I imagine that there's the ones that do cross the threshold to be like: Okay, let's make this happen. But you know, kind of like you were saying before, it's tough to try to do 50 shows in a specific short amount of run or whatever it may be. What are some of those considerations you may have to make in terms of the markets that you can't pick? Or the ones you know, that you may not be able to put in this time, right?


Kevin Shivers 11:11

I think there are a few things. One, it's like really talking to your clients and letting them know, we might, we're going to try to go in this market. This possibility, it might not go the way that we want, but we have to, to me if you're not trying if you're not putting risk on the line, and what are we doing, right? It's like, I'm actually somebody who's okay with failing, right? And I’m not saying that we fail or anything, but I'm okay with doing that risk for the bigger reward. So it's like really, really like getting in there and talking to them about, you know, the strategy, right? And like, the goal, I think the goal should be like, when you go out every two, three years is gaining new fans, gaining that new network.


Dan Runcie 11:50

Right, especially now. I feel like for someone like him, it's probably been interesting. I know, you've been with him to see the rise and just to see how the fan base has continued to evolve over time. So I imagine he probably even sees things where he's like: Okay, these are the Tyler fans that ,you know, have been with me since the Globin days. If I go to this city versus, you know, you go to this other city. They may not have discovered me as much until Flower Boy or something like that. I'm sure he does. Yeah, it's fascinating. And I think with him too, if we talk a bit more about the festival side of things, he obviously was a headliner, as you mentioned, his Lollapalooza show was broadcasted. I didn't go to the show, but I was able to see it through Hulu, because they had it coming through there. When you're trying to have someone like him, obviously, you have many different artists and they have different levels that they may want to perform at. And ideally, you want to have everyone maximizing and performing at the highest level or being like the highest row on that festival poster. But for someone like Tyler, is it going into the year like: Hey, headline or buster; if we can't be a headliner for this festival, we're not going to do it. Or does it depend on who some of the others are? What are those conversations like? 


Kevin Shivers 13:07

I think when you start a campaign with any artist, it's just like sitting down with the team and figuring out what the goals are, right? And it's all a trajectory and building on the last. I think you want to, the goal is always to build on the last time you were out, to build on the last year, right? And having that conversation. And you know, different artists have different things. Some people want to specifically target these particular festivals, or you know, you're going out in his window, and you could maybe use a festival to route in and out to get the gross-up for the whole tour. It's just like, really just, it's really spending time with the client spending time with the manager to find out, figure out what the goal is in maximizing the opportunities.


Dan Runcie 13:49

Is it any tougher to do that though? The way that artists can just rise so fast now, especially in the streaming era. Because I know that there's normally the standard, you know, you do your clubs, you can do a, you know, ballrooms or amphitheaters, and then maybe if you get to arenas or stadiums, that's their trajectory. But with people just getting so big, so fast, does that change the dynamic? Or it's like: Okay, how do you still balance what they may have done last time and use that as a reference point versus how quickly they can rise in this era?


Kevin Shivers 14:19

I mean, look, you have to have a point of view, and you have to have a plan. And you have to have some thoughts, right? And I think that people can really jump up really, really quickly. But we like to use this thing: don't skip steps, right? You know, sometimes if, you know, you can go play in an arena, why not go play multiple nights at a smaller room and build the momentum, build a buzz, meet people on the streets, leaving, not being able to get to the show. So that when you come back around, you still have gas in the tank. I mean, there's no one size fits all plan. It's like, you have to just know who you're working with, spend time and really kind of draw that. Draw that sketch up and map it out and let it listen. A plan is just a, it's just a roadmap. It can be amended along the way. There's no like set in stone thing, but other than like, no knowing where you want to go, knowing what you think, you know, going to be doing the next year, the next five years. That is what's most important.


Dan Runcie 15:13

That makes sense. And that reminds me of something I heard. I think it was Olivia Rodrigo, who said in some recent interview when he announced her tour. And someone must have asked her something along the lines of: Hey, you had one of the biggest years in pop music this past year, could you have done arenas? And I think she said that same line, you said: I don't want to skip any steps. This is where that is. So I think that's something that definitely rings true. And we're seeing examples of that.


Kevin Shivers 15:39

Yes. And you gotta ask yourself after arenas, then what? Where are you going after that? I mean, like, you know, you might already have that plan in your head, but like these careers are, it's a marathon, not a sprint.


Dan Runcie 15:49

So what do you think are some of the mistakes that artists can make? Like, I mean, you don't have to drop any names. You don't got to put anybody on blast. But is there anyone that you think maybe made a touring misstep? Or there's something where you can look back and be like: Ah, if they had done that a little differently, things could have worked out a little bit, you know, whether it's better or worse, or however for them.


Kevin Shivers 16:09

I think sometimes when people overthink it and end up doing nothing, that's like a bummer for everybody. That's a bummer for the artist. That's a bummer for the fan, that's a bummer for the culture, like, like you're hot, you're popping right now. We really need to see you really, really need to see you show up and pull up on us and see what you have. I think that, that's a mistake, not a mistake, but that's just a bummer for everybody. We want to see, we want to see you do your thing. And I would love it if instead of doing nothing that artists, sometimes people would do something.


Dan Runcie 16:39

So you think part of it is that there's a hesitancy to try to capture the moment, or sometimes they can be a bit more resolute or hesitant to do things when there is an opportunity to go back out there.


Kevin Shivers 16:51

Or they just don't know, or they just are trying to get it perfect. And like, you know, you're going to we're all going to make mistakes, there's going to be ups and downs. I think sometimes you just got to go play, you know, you got to give the fans what they want.


Dan Runcie 17:04

Do you think any of this has become any more challenging in the social media era? Because one thing that I've heard both on the talent side is that artists are even more so particular about how everything looks from a live perspective, because that shot that goes on Instagram or that shot that goes on Tik Tok, that influences ticket sales, especially from, you know, whether it's the first show or whatever it is. Do you feel like artists are feeling like they need to have things more perfect even though deep down, you know, that it shouldn't be that way?


Kevin Shivers 17:33

I mean, it's got to be really, really tough because the cameras are always on somebody always, you know, whether you like it or not, is documenting things that you do. So I think that I couldn't even imagine how much pressure that is and how tough that has to be. You know that social media can be good. And there can be some other sides where you're like: Wow, this is tough.


Dan Runcie 17:52

Yeah, I know, we've talked a lot about Tyler and about hip hop overall. But I know another one of the major artists you represent is Summer Walker. And you know, she had a big year, last year as well. And I wanted the differences whether you're planning a tour for, or you're planning live events, in general, for R&B artists, as opposed to someone in hip hop.


Kevin Shivers 18:14

I don't think there's really many differences, I just think you have to just, it goes back to the same. There’s no any artist planning and really just get, you know, in figuring out what the goals that they have and how you can best service them, right? I don't really think there's a different strategy or a different lane. I think if you love Summer Walker, you love Summer Walker, you're gonna go out and see it, right? And she has, she has an incredible fan base.


Dan Runcie 18:40

Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Because one of the things I was wondering with someone like her.Knowing how passionate her fan base is, I was wondering if there was a connection of like: Oh, you know, the streams may show this and the data may show this, but because of how R&B fans are, there may be a bit more likelihood that that could translate to ticket sales or purchases as opposed to other genres.


Kevin Shivers 19:02

You know, I think the fans are going to come out that they love somebody and Summer respects our fans. People like Summer Walker followers, or they just, they love her. I think they're just going to come out and show up and see her play.


Dan Runcie 19:14

Now. That's real, that makes sense. So for you, I mean, I know, you got a full roster, and you're always making sure that you can maximize them to the best of their abilities. So how do you measure success for yourself as a partner and as someone that's representing them on their behalf? 


Kevin Shivers 19:30

The answer is really simple: Helping others, right? I got into this business because I wanted to help artists grow. And it's like, it starts with the clients like you start thinking about, about people that I work with, like: What can I do to help them? What can I do to help them grow or give them everything that they need? Are we, you know, from last year to this year? Are we showing up every day to help them get to that next level? That's the first thing. I think also the way I measure success. It's like the same thing with helping others. Like it starts for me every day when my assistant Ebony, I think she's gonna be a great executive one day, but am I showing up for her? Do I slow down enough to answer her questions? Do I mentor her? Do I spend time with her? Because like, that's important to me. We have many, many amazing young agents that work here. Am I showing up enough to help them sign up clients? Am I giving them what they need? I think you know, measuring success. Is everybody around you doing well? Are you doing what's good for the organization? I co-run hip hop with Zach, Isaac, Caroline and James Rubby. And Caroline's always saying we got to take care of youngs, you know, it's Justin neighbor's getting what he needs? Is Sarah and Ronnie getting what they need? And then I think it's just, it's really about creating that culture, creating a universe, that the people you will arise into the next level of being selfless. And then also from a DNI perspective of like: What diverse people can we grow? Can we hire? Are we retaining them? These are all the ways that I measure success. I try not to look at what other people are doing. Because I mean, it doesn't really matter. I want to make sure that the organization and the people around me are set up for success.


Dan Runcie 21:14

I hear that. And I think a lot of the themes you mentioned there align with mentorship, and whether it's being a mentor or support for the artists that are looking to you for guidance, your co-workers and your colleagues. Can you talk a little bit more about why that's so important to you? Because even in reading and hearing other interviews, I know you've been active on that front, making sure that you can use your platform and where you are to pass the torch and help others along the way.


Kevin Shivers 21:40

I think mentorship is one of these things like, if we're not mentoring, then what are we doing? Why are we even showing up? You have to always be trying to look out for other people. I've had people that looked out for me and my career, people that still look out for me. And I think that is one of the key things. One of the reasons that makes me want to get up every day and come into the office is, like, helping others. I think that's one of the reasons why we're put on this earth to help people. A non-negotiable thing is mentorship. I mean, the crazy fact about, I'll go do an interview, or I'll do a panel and everybody that writes to me on IG or LinkedIn, I write everybody back, everybody. I mean, I probably send more people to the HR department here for jobs than anybody. Because I just want everybody back. I think that's important, because I was once the young kid who wanted to figure this out. And like I didn't know, I had no clue and people helped me. So I think that's a very important aspect of the job.


Dan Runcie 22:35

100%. And even on a personal level, I remember the first time you reached out to me, Hey, love what you're doing. Hey, how can I help? And you're just like: Oh, who do you want to interview? Oh, I was listening to them yesterday, boom, let's get this done. So even on a personal level, I need you out. You're looking out for me, man. I appreciate that. 


Kevin Shivers 22:52

Yeah, I mean, well, you're doing it. I listen to your podcast every week. I think it's amazing. I think what you're doing for the culture is great. And I just wanted to get to know you and just to help where I can and, and that's just, that's what I think is important.


Dan Runcie 23:05

Definitely, definitely. And one of the things that you had put out, because a couple years back, but it really stuck out to me was this was right after George Floyd's murder and the music industry had the show must be paused response. And you had written these guest posts on Pollstar and you were talking about how this industry just needs to do better by its black execs specifically on the recruiting front. And I know you were just talking about how, you know, you're always pushing things forward to HR. And I'm sure this must be really personal for you as well, you are one of the few folks that looks like you in the position that you have in this whole industry. So I'd love to hear how you feel like the industry has responded since everything had happened after George Floyd's murder and the response to where we are now in 2022.


Kevin Shivers 23:57

You know, in response to your comment about I wanted a person who looks like me in the industry. I always say to everybody, I'm amazing, but I'm not that amazing. There's, there should be more people that look like me doing what I do and and you know, partners in hire, right? And I think we still have a lot of work to do. There's good news though. There's positive conversation around DNI, people are aware, people are aware that there needs to be more black people and more diverse people need to have more opportunities. I still think that we need to keep pushing the envelope, we still have a lot more to do in terms of hiring and creating opportunities for black people. The organization's know they have to do better, but they have to buck the old status quo. They have to go outside of the norm. And today to some people, it might be like: Oh, we're taking a risk. No, DNI has to be inside of your lifeline, inside of your blood, inside of your everyday practices. It's not something that you can just talk about once a quarter, you gotta live it, you got to be in it every day. And I believe that the black people need to be promoted, they need to be elevated. They need to be given the same opportunities and shots. When we were interviewing for jobs, I think in any, in any industry, not just entertainment, you need to be interviewing black people, people of color, LGBTQ, there just needs to be more opportunity. We need more Sylvia Rhone's, more Ethiopia's, more tons Jay-Z and Def Jam. We need more leaders, more partners. I mean, we have to just keep our foot on the gas, keep pushing the envelope because this, we're not there yet. But we're going in the right direction. And we need to keep the momentum.


Dan Runcie 25:30

Right. And I think even an example of that, the folks you just mentioned, I think a lot of folks in this industry are all on a first name basis. And as incredible as all those folks are, how do we get to the point where they're not on a first name basis, because they aren't just the few black execs in there. I mean, it's definitely going to continue to take time. And I think whether it's conversations like this, or the efforts you're doing will help. But I'm hopeful that it can get there eventually. 


Kevin Shivers 25:55

I'm hopeful, too. I think we got to stay targeted and focus. But also at the same time, remember, like, this just didn't happen overnight, right? It's not going to change overnight. But we have to like, we have to keep, we have to stay on this because it can change and it needs to be better.


Dan Runcie 26:11

Definitely. So let's switch gears a bit. Let's talk a little bit about the future, specifically with regards to touring and technology and what things will look like in, the potential with Web 3.0 and the metaverse. Because now you have agencies that are specifically I'm sure WME likely also has a division where they focus specifically on digital environments, or getting artists lined up on that perspective. How do you look at that? Specifically, with the artists you have on your roster, what the potentials are for them in these digital worlds.


Kevin Shivers 26:50

I think Web 3.0 is just it's massive, huge, huge opportunity. You know, if you think about the evolution started in virtual, went over to Fortnite, but I just think it brings control back to the artists in a way. Artists had an act like this the whole time, these music artists, they've had fan clubs, they've had social media, but what Web 3.0 does, it gives more control to them. It's gonna give them more power, but like, it kind of cuts out the middleman and I think you know, things are gonna change in the next six months, next five years, it's gonna be an exciting world. If you look at what Coachella did, by selling the NFT, a lifetime Coachella pass. I mean, I think artists are gonna come up with these things where, you know, if you want to be in the front row of my show, here's the NFT for the chance to buy the front row tickets, or maybe it just goes inside of there. And they figure out what to promote, but I just think like, it's an exciting time. Like, it's the, it's endless. I was just on the phone with A Jones the other day, I love what he's doing with Royal. And I think the deal that he did with Nas and Antony Silay is, like,amazing; that looks like where things are headed. I mean, it's just, you know, like any of these things, it's gonna be ups and downs, right? In the Web 3.0, but I just think the opportunity is endless.


Dan Runcie 28:01

Yeah, things are early, things are also moving really fast. Six months from now, it's gonna look completely different. And I am excited for the artists that are taking advantage early. I feel like I can already imagine Camp Flog Gnaw Carnival having some type of digital environment or some type of experience in the metaverse.


Kevin Shivers 28:21

I'm sure it will, I'm sure Lollapalooza and some of these other properties. That's where they're headed. I mean, it's gonna be a really exciting time. I just hope people get off the couch, you still come out to show.


Dan Runcie 28:35

Is that a concern you have though? Like, do you wonder about that in the future?


Kevin Shivers 28:39

No, no, I was just joking. I mean, I don't think anything can replace the live experience, just like the Zooms are great, right? But I think when you're in a meeting with somebody, it's 10 times better. And I think a concert is 100 times better. I love, I love going to festivals, I've been to them all over the world. And I love seeing the reactions in real time on people's faces from their favorite artists hidden in the stage. So I don't think anything can replace it. I think it's going to only enhance the experience.


Dan Runcie 29:07

Agreed. That's what I always go back to. Everything in these experiences are additive and isn't a replacement for anything. And I think it'll probably just force more creativity for every aspect, because you're not just trying to have something be a catch all. So I think I'm interested to see how it'll continue to shape live performances and what that can look like from the, you know, the IRL experience. Yeah. And on that note, do you have any predictions for what you think the next three to five years or so will look like specifically in the lifespace? I mean, pandemic notwithstanding, I mean, obviously, I think we'll continue to see the after effects of that, but any type of, you know, evolutions are any type of future changes that you think will see over time.


Kevin Shivers 29:51

Yeah, I think 2022 is going to be bigger than we thought. I think that hopefully, I think we're headed to a healthy tour environment. I think there's going to be new players in terms of buyers and festivals. And I think the fan experience will that's going to be the thing of the future. I think everyone has realized they have to zero in on the fan from artists curated weekends and festivals to I think even super service in the fan. Think about this, think about a world where service lets you buy a ticket, has a car that picks you up, dinner reservations, great seats, even find you a babysitter.I think that's where we're going, we're going to this place, we're like: Okay, I can't even be, I'm busy. I didn't want to deal with this, boom, hit a button. And this is where we're going. I think that's exciting. Because you know, getting inside of the mind of the fan, what they really want is going to be the next evolution. 


Dan Runcie 30:42

Yeah, even you mapping that out. If you literally could press one button and solve that, I think you'd also just increase the amount of people that can come through, right? You mentioned the babysitter, the amount of people that have young kids, and it's like, you know, just the thought of them needed like, oh, you know, we got to find someone for this to cover for this night. Like, yeah, if all that can be taken care of.


Kevin Shivers 31:00

Because I think people love live music, and live music is such a treat. But when you think about the hurdles you have to do, you got to put on some clothes, maybe, you know, show starts at seven, get homework, feed your kids, do this, do that. And if you could just take some of that away from them. That's like, you know, bringing the fan experience to a new level.


Dan Runcie 31:21

Definitely. So I know that you're always on the go with festivals. And you know, I know you love going into them. But I know it's also for your work as well. If you have to guess, how many shows do you think you'll go to in 2022?


Kevin Shivers 31:33

I can tell you this. I'd rather answer this way. How many days I plan on hitting a lot of festivals in 2022. So I think I'm going to be, I call it 50 to 60 days watching music, right? That's what I'd say.


Dan Runcie 31:48

Okay. Yeah. All right. And even that, I mean, that's a lot more than the average person. But I mean, it's just incredible. Because you get to just see all the fine tunes, you get to just see everything. And like you mentioned, this is interesting, you're traveling all across the world for this stuff.


Kevin Shivers 32:02

Yeah. I mean, that's, that's one of the reasons I love doing what I do. I mean, like, really, I get to go see live music in different parts of the world. I mean, I can't even imagine anything better than that.


Dan Runcie 32:12

Yeah. So last question. Before we let you go. I know we talked a lot about Tyler. And I know from our conversations, just the uniqueness of you seeing that star power and star potential, even from the first time you connect it. How do you find that next tile? Or how do you find that thing to know? Okay, yeah, this is the one that we need for this next generation. 


Kevin Shivers 32:34

Oh, wow. I think when I'm looking to sign somebody, I'm looking for somebody that has a unique point of view, for somebody that is fearless, and then wants to do the work.


Dan Runcie 32:43

That makes sense. Hear that man. Hey, before we let you go, man, this was great. I'm glad you could come through and make this happen. But is there anything else you want to plug? Or let the Trapital audience know about it?


Kevin Shivers 32:54

I think everybody should go out and see some shows this year. I think 2022 is going to be a good year, and then one thing I want to say is to somebody who wants a career in entertainment, I think you should go for it. I think you should move to LA, move to New York, move to Atlanta, move to Nashville. Call, email some people; call, email me. I'll probably write you back pretty soon and just go for your dreams.


Dan Runcie 33:15

What's your email address?


Kevin Shivers 33:17

Kshivers@wmeagency.com. It's all good.


Dan Runcie 33:23

Now appreciate that, man. I welcome man. Thanks for coming through this as a pleasure.


Kevin Shivers 33:27

I appreciate you Dan.


Dan Runcie 33:31

If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend posted in your group chat, posted to your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review and tell people why you liked the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 2049 no Bun B Believes The Metaverse Will Open Up Access Between Artists & Fans https://www.trapital.com/podcast In this week's show, we have a hip hop legend, Bun B. Best known as one-half of the Southern rap duo UGK, Bun along with Pimp C formed UGK in the late '80s when their former crew, Four Black Ministers, fell apart. Based in Port Arthur, Texas, UGK signed with Jive, and with 1992's Too Hard to Swallow began a series of Southern gangsta rap albums that were successful sellers.   In 2005, Bun B carried on solo, and released both the mixtape Legends, and his debut album Trill extending his presence into the 2010s with Trill O.G.: The Epilogue and Return of the Trill, just as a generation of younger MCs looked up to the influential veteran for inspiration. Since then he has continued to experiment and always try what’s new, specially in the technology field, to take full advantage of it.   We have an insightful talk on what he’s doing with NFT’s and Web 3.0, and discuss broadly about the metaverse. Tune in to discover how Bun has positioned artists and himself in this incredible space!   Episode Highlights [02:50] Bun’s insights about NFT’s and EulerBeats [05:09] Technology advances in the music industry: Vinyl, cassettes, CD’s, mp3 [06:36] Bun’s wallet and the genuine aspect of being someone that is producing art and trying to consume it in space vs the cash grab [13:26] How NFT’s shapes the way Bun chooses to release music in the future [17:01] Bun’s outlook about putting himself in the frontlines for all types of things [20:41] Pimp C and testing technology in 1995 with the Ridin’ Dirty album [24:00] Doing more metaverse concerts for more artistic interpretation [29:42] The real advancement of technology with the Nintendo Wii. [35:02] Hip hop artists in Houston [38:49] Hip hop entertainment media becoming more democratized [40:40] Bun’s perception of how to take full advantage of what the metaverse and web 3.0 have to offer [41:28] Bun’s Trill Burger Restaurant [48:20] What Bun wants the “Trapital” audience to know about Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Bun B Twitter: @BunBTrillOG Instagram: @bunb Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands _______ How Bun B Has Positioned Hip Hop Artists in the Metaverse Space Bun B 00:00 All of this different stuff. I do believe that you can do things in a metaverse concert that you maybe can't do in real life, right? Levels of production interaction, people communicating to you in real-time, right? In ways that you probably couldn't do in the middle of a fully organized and fully produced concert. Dan Runcie 00:27 Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. This episode is with hip hop legend, Bun B. This man needs no introduction. But everyone on this podcast is going to get one, especially a legend in the game, like Bun.  It's wild to think this is coming up on 30 years since Bun and Pimp C dropped their debut album as UGK. And each evolution of his journey Bun has continued to experiment, continue to try what's new. And what he's been doing recently with NFT's and with Web 3.0 is a great example of that. He recently linked up with Cryptopunk Rapper Spottie WiFi. And Bun and I talked all about the releases that they have planned what their strategy has been with NFT's and we talk more broadly about the metaverse. What does that look like for hip-hop artists? How Bun has positioned themselves in this space, and what UGK's approach to NFT's would have looked like. We also talked about what Bun's been doing in the restaurant business, Houston, hip hop artist, who his NFL comparison is, and a whole lot more. It's always great to host the legends on this podcast. And it was an honor for him to join me on this one. Here's my with the Trill OG.  All right, we got the Trill OG with us himself, Bun B. Welcome, man. It's great to have you on the pod. Bun B 02:02 Likewise, man, thanks for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation today. Dan Runcie 02:06 Yeah, man, this is dope, because I feel like there has been so much movement lately going on with NFT's and how artists are making moves. And you've been making a bunch of moves in this space, you recently teamed up with another artist, Spottie WiFi. And it's been dope just to see how you all have thoughtfully planned out what you're doing. And all of these steps the past year where I feel like most people are just gonna wrap their heads around what an NFT actually is and how to do it. So yeah, it will be good to hear. What was your entry point to this? Like, when did you first hear about this stuff, and then something clicked when you're like: Okay, I'm gonna make a move in this space. Bun B 02:50 So I got approached last summer. A good friend of mine used to be my video producer advice many years ago, reached out to me and he said: Bun, I know you're a forward thinker. I know you're, you know, relatively open minded guy. Have you heard of NFT's? And I was like, vaguely, but because of the fact that I was I was a little late to crypto, so I wasn't, you know, big on Discord and all of that kind of thing. So I was very unfamiliar, to be honest, seems like well, I have a guy, he's, you know, very fluent. And, you know, he's doing these different kinds of things called EulerBeats, and I was like, what, what is a EulerBeat? And the way it was explained to me, and I'm definitely paraphrasing here, it's like a computer algorithm is put in and it kicked out beats or whatever. So basically, these were beats that were kicked out by because some kind of computer program or algorithm by some scientist named Euler. And so different people were buying these EulerBeats, doing remixes to them and so forth. So one of the guys that owned one reached out to my friend and was like, you know, if you'd like to collaborate, I'd love to see if you would want to rap over one of these beats, you know, so I did something, it was very minimal. It was really only like a hook and a verse and it was called going crazy over crypto. And I just use a lot of different terminology from this, as I did my research, talking about Foundation, and open sea and stuff like that, you know, very, very surface level terminology. And it did fairly well it because the guy that I partnered with was already well known in the space. And so that went well, and I guess the word kind of got out. So then I had another friend reach out to me and he was like: Hey, I have a good friend. He is a crypto punk owner, and he's actually like, the first crypto punk rapper. I'm like: Well, I don't even know what that means. But, you know, let's let's get us all on a call. And that's when I was introduced to Spidey and Spidey explained to me the idea of the crypto punk NFT and him putting like an identity to his and turn it into like this character, which I thought was like really cool, real cutting edge and some next level shit. And being an older artist, you know, I'll be celebrating my 30 year anniversary this month. And so I've watched the music industry changed from vinyl to cassettes, cassettes to CDs, CDs to mp3. So you know and watch the record business go from the traditional model of record stores into these online stores, right? So for me, it's it's vital that I'm prepared to change with the time when this technology advances. And so when I started to find out more and more about not only NFT's but cryptocurrency and this whole idea of Web 3.0 in the metaverse and where everything is going, I was like: Man, I really hope I can find my way into this. And luckily, people who are already in the space reached out to me, so I didn't have to do that much initial heavy lifting, right? These guys kind of carried it for me. But then once they brought this stuff to me, I got very intrigued and I started to do my own research. And now like just watching these different brands and different people being associated with different stuff and seeing how you know, this board API club society is expanding, you know, through all facets of entertainment, man, it's really cool to watch. And it's really fun to be on a certain level a part of everything that's happening, right? Dan Runcie 06:22 Yeah, definitely. And I mean, you mentioned it a few of the names there. Obviously, we're talking about crypto punks board, API club. I feel like even outside of music, you must have stepped up your own collection as well with this stuff. What's your, what's your wallet looking like right now? Bun B 06:36 It's looking pretty good. You know, I had the full set, Medicard, somebody talked to me about that. I think my first really, really good purchase for me was an In-Betweener from Gianpiero. He's a digital artist and he's also the designer behind Drew, which is Justin Bieber's clothing line. So I was able that was like the first thing I was able to met Tristan Eaton, who was a good friend of mine. He's an amazing artist and muralist. He released some, some art called Gemma. So he gave me an NFT of his, and that allowed me to be able to meet stuff. So it's been really, really cool. Hundreds I bought an atom bomb from the Hundreds for Bobby Hundreds. And I caught it, like, at a really good price. And the ceiling is like two and a half times what it was when I got it. It's just been fun to get my hands on some of this stuff and just watch it grow, you know, but I'm trying to hold on to as much of it as possible, personally. Yeah, I did it for like, you know, quick buys and flips because I'll be honest, I wouldn't, I wouldn't fail to understand the industry enough to know what to buy and when to buy it. Whatever.  I'm finding some cool stuff. I have friends that tell me about some cool stuff happening. I go on, I check it out, you know, works for me people that, you know, sometimes I've been lucky enough to get whitelisted other times, I got to get in that thing and met like everybody else, you know, but it's been fun and exciting. You know, especially like I see now B.o.B is now getting into the metaverse, that's going to be a drop coming soon. Really interesting man to watch out for; all these brands are finding their way into the metaverse right now. But yeah, my wallet is, it's okay, you know, it's not crazy, because I'm very reserved about, like, I have crypto that I already have. So I'm just kind of playing with house money, if that makes any sense. Like I don't want to look into you know, dumping a lot of my personal income into it, you know, if I make the right decisions in the right choices and make a couple of bucks cool. And if not, you know, they're not going to cut the lights off over here anytime. So, but, but it's fun, it's fun to have a lot of friends now like Everlast, a recording artist Everlast. I talked to him all the time. And he's been an art collector for almost 30 years now of all different mediums of art, whether it's sculptures or toys, or paintings or what have you. And like he's like, very, very engaged because he just loves art, and he loves to appreciate art. And he has many friends that are artists that are releasing NFT's, and then other things that he sees that are you know, maybe based off of hip hop characters or something culturally that he has an attachment to, and he was just copied something you know, it's relatively, you know, most of these things meant typically around .01 Ether, so it's only a couple of $100 that you really have to invest. Again, like I said, I'm not I'm not sitting around trying to spend crazy money on some of this stuff. But it's been fun man. It's really fun to have some of this stuff and you know, you could send your friend a link to your wallet and show him what you got.My good friend, Clyde Edwards from sneaker box. He was hitting me. He's like: Yo, I see you got to In-Betweener about one to check out my wallet, and I sent him my wallet. We just kind of compared different stuff that people got man. It's, it's a different thing that people can bond over too. You know, like, I have a lot of friends that are into sneakers. There's a lot of sneaker based NFT's Nikki Diamond sent me over some crypto downs that he's doing, you know. I'm saying and now other people that I didn't even know were hidden and she's like: Yeah, kind of crypto down to like worry. Yeah, it only cost me .01 Ether, so it was like nothing. It's fun, man. It's really fun and interesting to see how the space is connecting with people and how, how different people's entry points vary based on their cultural cues, you know. Dan Runcie 10:06 Yeah! And I think your approach with it in terms of you're trying to buy these things and hold them, you're not trying to flip them. That's what separates the genuine aspect of being both someone that's producing art, but trying to consume it in the space versus the cash grabs. And I know that's something that both you and Spottie have been focused on making sure that the stuff you're putting out isn't just a cash grab. You're trying to put out something that people should want to buy and hold the same way you do with others. And I'm curious, are there certain things that you did to make sure that that was the image that was being presented, or the way that people would see it if they wanted to buy it? Because I know that with something like NFT's that can be a delicate thing to balance. Bun B 10:53 I think I do a lot of this, you know, especially with particularly with this collaboration with Spidey. I kind of followed his lead, and I didn't want to put too much of myself on it. Because I was new in this space. I didn't want to overtalk myself. I didn't over one want to overstep my boundaries. And I didn't want to mess up Spidey's reputation. He's very well known, and very well respected in the space. So for the most times, I just kind of took his lead on a lot of this stuff. He would recommend certain things to me, I would approach things from a very typical traditional release standpoint and engagement standpoint. He was like: No, well. I was like, should we go on Instagram Live? And he was like: Well, no,these things tend to work better on Twitter spaces, you know. So little things like that helped me connect and figure out the space a lot quicker. But Spottie, I mean, he was already releasing music as NFT's prior to our collaboration. So the system was already set up, I just tried not to step on anybody's toes, get in anybody's way. But I was curious about a lot of things as far as intellectual property and ownership. And, you know, it's very interesting how some of these things work, depending on what you're releasing, whether it’s video or it’s music, you know, different rules apply. So it's been educational for me as well. And now that I have this information, I have a lot of other artists, typically from my generation who are curious about it, who don't have a Spottie that they can go to. So I can kind of give them a very base entry level instructions, I try to point them in the right direction. But it's not the easiest thing for people to navigate to discord if they've never really been on one before, and don't really know the terminology, and how the communication is happening in the space. So and that's for me, like, I was just talking to a friend last night like: Yo, how do you monitor these discords? Like, how do you know who's meeting what and where? And he was like: Man, it's a language, you just got to figure out how to talk it. And once you figure out how to talk it, it's, you'll see everything happening. So I'm still learning, it's a process for sure. Because this is the space that I naturally operate in. But I'm always up to learn something new. Dan Runcie 13:02 Right. And because I think that's the perspective that obviously separates you from someone that would even want to try to do this as a cash grab to begin with. You already had a clear understanding, and then you have someone that's willing to ride it with you. And then you can help do other; help support other people with that, too. But yeah, it's, it's a lot I could imagine. And now that you've got in yourself up to speed with it, I wonder how this will shape how you choose to release your music in the future overall, with NFT's but then obviously, traditional album releases and things like that. Bun B 13:37 Well, it's just a further extension, right? It just gives me a deeper way of connecting with my base and with people who appreciate my art. So typically, we would only sell music to people, we would only be able to communicate to people through social media. But now in the metaverse, right? Like I can sell tickets to a virtual concert. While they're at the virtual concert, they can buy virtual merchandise, right? There's so many different ways that we can connect with people, and it doesn't all have to be monetary, right? We can have very real conversations. It's, you know, these Twitter spaces have been very interesting in terms of learning how people view art that don't necessarily have an entry point to me as a musician, right? So in determining, like in the future, what kind of NFT's we want to be involved with and how we want to present it. It has to be true to me and my art and what I represent. So a lot of those things won't maybe necessarily connect,and they won't be something that I could sell for a bunch of money even if I wanted to. But the reality is, is that, I can't afford for this to be a cash grab, because I've got 30 years of reputation on the line, right? And I've always been upfront with people about what it is I represent and what I'm presenting. And so for me, this is just fun, right? It's very, it's fun. I'm trying to not try to sell stuff at an expensive price. I just want people to have a deeper experience in something that they're already enjoying, which is my music. So, we can create these remixes, right? Or like what I'm doing with Spidey where we're allowing people to remix the song, and present it, right? Like that's, that's fun; that's dope. But it's not something that would traditionally only play through a DJ or on a radio station, right? This thing will live and breathe on an entirely brand new platform. And it will inspire other people to approach these things from a different aspect or a different angle. And that's all I really want to do. As the OG, I'm typically the one that has to bite the bullet on this stuff; jump out there first, see if it's viable, see if it makes sense. And then, show other people: Hey, this is cool. Come on, you guys, it's safe to go this way. That's really all I'm trying to do. Now, you know, not necessarily for a lot of young people, because they get it: Younger people are more tech savvy than, say, my generation is, right? I want to let them know that this is a safe space, that they can operate it. But you can't jump in here and look at the money because these people can smell a poser a mile away. They can tell him to rug pool, they know what's going on. Because they were here first, you're the new guy, you know. So but it's, it's, um, it's encouraging, I will say that it is encouraging as an artist, you know. What new ways can I find to make this experience with the people that are appreciating my art and my music deeper? You know, how can it go further? How can it last longer? That's, that's a beautiful thing.  Dan Runcie 16:19 Yeah, and that's a good point. You mentioned earlier, you, especially within your generation, have always been the experimenter, you've always been more willing to put yourself out there and then see what it's like and then put others up on game. How do you think that developed? Like, where did that, you know, dynamic come from for you? Bun B 16:38 Well, you got to understand, I started rapping 30 plus years ago, when it wasn't even a viable job, right? People weren't rich from rap when I first got into it, but it was new. It was, it was amazing, right? The graffiti aspect of it, the breakdance aspect of it, watching the DJ, manipulating the records, and watching these guys create songs, impromptu like right in front of you. It was amazing. It was something I wanted to be a part of. And back then, you know, my mother was against it, a lot of people didn't think I would make it, it'd be successful. But I was like: Look, I'll give it some time, I'll give it a shot, I'll at least take a chance. You know, for me, I've always been open minded to take a chance on things and not everything works out. But typically when they do, they work out big. So you know, no risk, no reward. That's always been, you know, my personal motto. And you know, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody physically, as long as it doesn't compromise my family's financial and physical security. I'm open for you know, I'm willing to test it and from where I'm from, if I don't try it first, some people will never give it a chance, you know. So again, if you, you know, if you call yourself an OG, then you have to put yourself on the frontlines for all types of things, you know, not just music and hip hop or street related stuff. But even with, you know, technology and finance and all this type of stuff. I want people to get the best experience they can out of life, you know, and if I can live life and show people: Hey, this is okay to do this is safe, you know, encourage people to take a chance and jump off that cliff and see, you know, saying the biggest one when they land, I'm with it, you know, because it's worked out for me. And I know, there were a lot of things I was able to accomplish that people said I couldn't do. So I want to encourage as many people out there as possible to take chances as well. Dan Runcie 18:21 Yeah, you mentioned there earlier with that, your mother in this and just you know her maybe not necessarily seeing it. And I think I heard you say this once that she didn't think that this was real until you were in Big Pimpin'. And that's when it, like, clicked for her. She was like: Oh, okay, like this is real now. Bun B 18:38 Yeah, a little earlier than that. But right, right around the same time, like we were, we had the number one album and jet magazine. And that was like a big deal, right? Because that was for her generation, the only way to gauge that kind of stuff. They really weren't into Billboard magazine, they didn't, you know, charts and all of that type of stuff. So that's where people will look at it back, a jet magazine, you'd see the top singles and the top albums. And when I have the Top album and jet magazine, she kind of had to look to take notice. She was like you really do make music because there was no way for her to really gauge it. We didn't have a lot of music videos, we didn't have a lot of media exposure. You know, a lot of it was really word of mouth; our earliest use as recording artists, even though we were signed to a major label. So nothing in my life showed that I was like a recording artist, I didn't really have, you know, the money and the cars, you know, to really show that I was doing all this stuff. I couldn't point at this magazine and say: Look and see me. I couldn't point at this TV show and say: Hey, there goes my video. So it, you know, it was these small little moments that my mom could relate to because a lot of hip hop culture, my mom didn't have a frame of reference for, you know, me. That's a good thing too. Because, you know, this is a very different environment sometimes that we can operate in pimps. My mom was always deeply involved in our career. And I wasn't always crazy about that because there's a lot of rooms that I felt she shouldn't have been in because things can get very aggressive sometimes. But saying all that to be said, once I did go out and show my mom that I was capable of doing this, she was all in. She's one of my biggest supporters now, but again, sometimes you just got to go out there and throw caution to the wind. And that's always been this recurring theme in my life where, you know, I have no idea where the next road is going to leave me. But I have to be prepared to take that step regardless, you know. Dan Runcie 20:25 Definitely. And I think with that, you mentioned Pimp C earlier. I feel like you and him together, just imagining what you all would have done and what USK’s, NFT approach and Web 3.0 approach would have been like, it would have been crazy. Bun B 20:41 Well, Pimp was very big about interaction, right? He was really, you know, we would have concerts, you know, we'd be done on stage, say, you know, 1:30 and we probably wouldn't leave the club till 2:00 o'clock. Because taking pictures and signing autographs and just talking to people. Pimp was really big on wanting to, like, stick around after the show and, like, actually communicate with people. He was always curious as to what was on people's minds. And right now, he would have been all over; I believe, like, the metaverse and this idea of. Because I remember, he was, he introduced me to LaserDisc, right? Like, I had no idea what LaserDisc was. And I was the movie guy. That was a crazy thing. I was a big movie buff that watched all the films. And he was like: Man, I think you would like this, because you can watch the movie, and the director will talk to you like the commentaries and all that stuff. So he was, and he was a producer, he worked with a lot of, you know, recording equipment. So he had to be on the cutting edge of technology. Many people don't know that Ridin' Dirty is one of the first albums to actually be recorded in Pro Tools. So it's one of the first rap albums to be recorded fully into digital format, you know, and we were using a, a beta as a beta version. So we were testing the technology. And this is back in 1995, back in 1996, you know, so we were always trying to take advantage of advances in technology throughout our career. So it would be no surprise that this would be something that he would be trying to be a part of as much as possible. And I mean, he was, you know, he was already a very animated person. So a cartoon character with Pimp C based on it in these, you know, NFT world, you know, you could have put different hats, different color mink coats on him, he would have had a ball with it. I guarantee. Dan Runcie 22:18 I could have, I could only imagine. I'm thinking about a clip of you all from international players Anthem Music Video, that would go crazy. Bun B 22:29 Oh, yeah, definitely, you know, and again, you know, you never know what people gravitate to, right? That's why it's important to just throw it all up against the wall, I talked about this yesterday. I was just like: Man, you never know what it is people like about what you do. So you just give them everything you got, present yourself fully, you know, saying be open, but be as transparent as possible, and let the people decide what it is they love about you. And once you find that connection point, you can expand on that and grow that connection. I think NFT's is the perfect place for that, because it allows multiple interpretations of a theme that's already associated with you. Dan Runcie 23:06 Right, right, for sure. I think with this, too. There's so much that's already known. And I think to a lot of people, you're definitely on the cutting edge with this. And I think naturally, you're probably: Like, okay, well, what is that thing going to be like three years from now, five years from now that everyone's gravitated towards? Do you have any ideas on what that could look like in music? Bun B 23:27 Well, I think for one in music, I think a lot of,especially, we look at, you know, with, with social distancing, and a pandemic, and how people had to start doing like online concerts and versus and all of this different stuff. I do believe that. You know, if you remember last year, Travis Scott, and I think Justin Bieber both did virtual concerts, right? Travis did one on Fortnite. I think you'll see a lot more of that because it allows for more artistic interpretation for the performer, right? So you can do things in a metaverse concert that you maybe can't do in real life, right? Levels of production interaction, people communicating to you in real time, right? In ways that you probably couldn't do in the middle of a fully organized and fully produced concert. I just think it allows people who appreciate what you do to have more access to you and what you do. And I think that for me, is where things are going to go. I think, I think there's going to be more. I think not only are we going to spend more time in the metaverse, I think we're going to be concerned about how we look in a metaverse, how we present ourselves in a metaverse as far as technology. And I think it'd be a lot closer to Ready Player One in the virtual sense, but not in the real world being this dystopian future kind of thing. I think we're okay for the next couple of years. I don't think mankind is going to, you know, turn into Mad Max that quick, right? I do think that people are going to spend, want to spend. I want to say that, everyone will want to spend more time. I think for me In the next three years, there's going to have to be some type of technological advance in the way we enter the metaverse because VR headsets for many people can be a very cumbersome thing to deal with for an extended period of time. And for me, that's the only thing with being in virtual reality for more than 20,30,40 minutes is the fact that the headset can get hot, especially if you're playing like Fruit Ninja, or boxing or working out, right? It gets hard to get sweaty. It's a lot. You know, I think as, I think as the technology starts to advance on that aspect, people will be more willing to get into it because it’s, it's kind of awkward, this big headset and these paddles and all of that. I think at some point, you know, if you look at who it is that is working with Oakley. Is it Facebook, or Google? That has the glasses, or is it not YouTube? Yeah, it's YouTube, right? We're with Oakley, where you can film things directly from, from the glasses. I think technology is going to lean more in that direction, I think we will be able to incorporate more of the metaverse on top of the real world so that you will be cognizant of where you are in the real world at the same time. So you're not tripping over the coffee table or something because people are going to want to incorporate this more into their everyday life. You won't be able to drive with it or maybe walk down the street with it. But I think you can move around and share spaces a little bit better, you know, but that's just me. I just want this to be a more pleasant experience and easily accessible experience. I think at some point, the metaverse will be as easily accessible as WiFi. If you can find a WiFi connection, you can jump right into the metaverse to connect with people in places. That's awesome. Starbucks is gonna look a lot different in three years. I could tell you. Dan Runcie 26:47 Yeah, I think, I think that's it. Because when I think about the VR companies like Magic Leap, or Oculus, where I think their growth slowed a bit was exactly what you said. Having that headset on for a long period of time does create a barrier and friction on so many levels. And I think that's why for that moment, we saw faster movement and growth in AR as opposed to VR, right? So I think, the next motion of that is like what you're saying with glasses, it's like a hybrid of those. You still have the thing over you, but it's still layered on top of the real world, you can still interact with whatever's happening around you. Bun B 27:25 The only problem is his peripheral, right? Like you have to figure out where the peripheral would stop with glasses, right? At some point, you still have to have simple coverage, right? In order to fully be constant in this space. But that doesn't, that's not always going to work. So I think, as long as someone can like with the click of a button, like, tablets have a real space in the back of their metaverse like the in and out, right? The accessibility, I think, to and back and forth, that's going to be the thing that I'm sure there's somewhere in, in the r&d departments trying to figure out right now. Definitely, I think this would be amazing, like on flights, like, just think if you have, like, a long international flight, right? You know, you get tired of watching movies, and listening to music and food. You can jump on, you know, the same phone, if there's like a WiFi experience, you can jump into the metaverse right there, you know, and interact with other people on a plane, right? Without, you know, without having to get up and go there. You can find out somebody in 34C is interested in the same things as you, you know, it could get sketchy too. You know, that could get sketchy too. I've been on planes before where people were randomly air dropping pictures to people that maybe they didn't want airdropped to them. Like that. But the world is full of wonder. I'm excited about the future , always have been, always will.  Dan Runcie 28:36 Yeah. And I also think we're still in the early days of this too. I mean, it's very real that I know that. I know that Facebook changed its name to Meta, and they may seem like the leader, but these companies, especially the new ones, they're growing fast. Every new social platform grows faster than the one before that. And like we're saying five years from now, just think about, like, how quick Tick Tock blew up, or how quick Clubhouse blew up in that, you know, few months, right? Bun B 29:01 And prevalent, not just that it grew up. It's prevalent, and it's accepted, you know, across the board, you know, different cultures, languages, gender identity, everybody's getting it the same way. I talk about this all the time, every now and then technology comes to people or an idea, or some level of artists presented and everyone receives it generally the same way, right? And I think that the metaverse is going to get to a point where it can present itself to the average consumer who isn't tech savvy, who doesn't have cryptocurrency, who doesn't have a metamask wallet with, with NFT's and tokens in it. But will still want to interact and engage. You know, I saw with the Nintendo Wii, I think the Nintendo Wii doesn't get enough credit for being a precursor to this. You know, that was something that everybody wanted to see what their face would look like, what their avatar would look like on the game and we could bowl and play tennis and all of that, right? I think that's going to come back around. I think we're going to see a happy medium between what we know VR to be, and what we want VR to be very soon. I think there's too many companies investing in a technology. There's too many upstarts. And there's too many people whose minds are not focused on this. It's happening. It's not about a matter of if, it's when it's happening right now. And everybody's getting on board, all these big corporations that you see creating NFT's and trying to sell up cheese. I remember when I saw the massive Thanksgiving parade floats were being sold as NFT's. I'm like, okay, and like, this is massive, right? Right. You know, saying like, get on board, like everybody can get on board. And you can hold out if you want, I held out on Twitter, I held out on Instagram and social media. And I'm pretty sure it cost me It cost me money. At some point. It cost me connectivity at some point. And you know, it cost me relationships because I wasn't there early, right? A lot of people that got there early, were able to take full advantage of it. And you know, a lot of us are still playing catch up with this kind of stuff. So as far as the, you know, Web 3.0 in the metaverse, I want to be, if not ahead of the game, at least I have my finger right on the side and on the cusp of what's to come.  Dan Runcie 31:11 That Nintendo Wii example is a really good one for a few reasons. Because I think it also signaled what people think is the real technology advancement, if that makes sense. Because up until that point, everything was about graphics. How can the Xbox One be upgraded graphics and the Xbox 360? Or a ps4? Whatever it is. Bun B 31:31 How close to reality can it look, right? Dan Runcie 31:34 Right, and their whole thing was like: Okay, maybe if it's less about that, but more about like: Okay, what is the actual experience that you can create with other people and making people do things? And that's why, we blew up when it did when it did, you know, let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Bun B 31:52 Yeah, so what's the goal, right? What was the goal of the Nintendo Wii for people to enjoy it together, right? So they focused on that, instead of how pretty the picture was going to look? And how sharp the animation was going to look and how fluid everything was going to be? No, it just, you know, the avatars just like the Apple avatars, right? They're fun, neat, animated character caricature versions of who we are, right? It's like spending the day at the pier or something, you know, and it allows the kids to play a game with the parents to play a game with the grandparents, you know. Nintendo Wii changed Thanksgiving weekend and changed Christmas and New Year's, right? Because now the whole family can gather around the television. And instead of watching a movie, we can all do Nintendo Wii bowling. I feel like technology is going to get more and more into that. The metaverse lends itself to that, you know, I'm saying. Especially if, say, you can get on your iPad, you can get on, on your cell phones, the kid can't get on on his Nintendo, right? I can get on, on my phone. And we can all be interacting, playing games against each other. You know, what was it there was, there were virtual dominoes, I remember that became a big thing during the pandemic, because people in different houses could play dominoes against each other. People who would normally come together and commune and play dominoes in person could play it virtually. Now imagine that there's an avatar, you know, I'm saying there's benefits, the winner could get this, we could all put .01 Ether or something. I don't want to encourage gambling, but it's just different ways for us to have fun together. You know, and I think, I think the metaverse is going to be perfect for that. Because if everybody just has to put something on, then we're all there. Now, you know, I love the idea of, of virtual art galleries, where you can have the stuff that's in your wallet, and it's on the wall, you can display it and present it to other people. You know, you can go by someone's gallery and look at their art, they can come and look at yours. We'll be having listening parties, people can come and commune, play albums and preview music and videos. But the world is wide open, and it's just about how open you are to it. Dan Runcie 33:54 That's exciting. I'm excited for that. I know you're going to be up on all of that. And I mean, I can't wait. I feel like of course with some of these things. You always feel it out to see, okay, what is, you know, the worthwhile thing to put the investment behind. But there's always going to be things and I think, I think it's going to be bright ahead so I can't wait for that.  Switching gears a bit though, I want to talk a bit more about hip hop and I want to talk about Houston specifically. Because obviously you're a legend in this game, you know, play in Port Arthur, Texas on the map. And it's been great. You mentioned Travis Scott earlier. It's been great to see what he's done. It's been great to see what Megan Stallion has done as well. And I feel like, you know, you've mentioned that especially in the 90s, Houston necessarily wasn't getting you know, all the love that it definitely deserved. And now we are starting to see a few more Houston artists get some of that mainstream awareness that maybe the earlier generation didn't get. But I'm curious, where you think things are right now. Do you feel like Houston is finally getting its fair share? Do you think they're still selling room there for the region? Bun B 35:02 Well, I think the only thing that has really held us back here has always been media, the media accessibility, right? Not being in New York and not being in Los Angeles, which are media capitals of the world, not just of the US, right? There is all the accessibility to magazines, to TV shows, right? To entertainment conglomerates, in general, all the access is there. We've always been operating on the outside. Well, now with social media, it kind of levels the playing field. And if we're all operating on a level playing field, then yes, we can compete with anybody, we can compete with any and everybody on any level. So that's why I think you start to see more not just prominence of, of Houston artists, but Houston artists on a major level, right? Because everybody can be a part of the experience. At the same time, people now have been educated to Houston's street scene, Houston's music scene, everybody knows what the car the candy painted cars are, you know, DJ Screw, they know all of that everybody has the cultural cues to it. And since we're all operating on that same,even playing, let's just see who's got the best talent and who presents themselves in the best way. And you'd be hard pressed to find somebody to present that presents themselves live on stage in person better than someone like a Travis Scott, or a Megan Thee Stallion. Obviously, Travis has, you know, has a lot that he's going through right now. But I don't think anyone would ever say that Travis wasn't one of the best performances out there, right? So if we're given the same opportunities in the same platforms that everyone else has to present ourselves to the masses. Houston has just a chance, if not even more of a chance of being successful on a grand scale than everyone else, because we had to learn how to operate without mass media outlets, you know what I'm saying. So if we can build up a following based on that. Well, once we get access to the media outlets, it was game over at that point, right? So yeah, I look at a lot of the talent, you know, people like Maxo Kream on the edge, you know, people like Fat Tony, there's a lot of great up and coming talent coming out of Houston Sauce Walka and Peso Peso, Trill Sammy, Dice SoHo, a lot of really good talent coming out of the city. And they're all finding their fan bases through social media. So they're the people that they are connecting with while it may not be a million people at one time. That 150,000-250,000 group that they're connecting with, they're building strong connections, they're building connections that will last for years to come. And it's important to do that. I tell artists all the time, you don't need a million fans to make a million dollars. You know, that's a big misconception that you need to sell a million things to someone to make a million dollars to a million people. No, it doesn't have to be at all. If you’re consistent, 10,000 people spending money with you; 10,000 people spending 50 bucks with you, on a monthly basis will make you a millionaire in a year. So don't be greedy. Just be consistent and patient. Dan Runcie 37:59 Definitely. And I think to that, obviously, the internet helps democratize so much of this. But to your point, I think you're still highlighting this, that medium still does make a difference for a lot of these artists, and especially in the hubs that they're in. So I feel like it's getting closer to that point where things are equalized. But unfortunately, there still is some benefit that the artist that is close to the New York or close to the LA would have. But I'm curious, especially as we're thinking about whether it's the metaverse or just future development in different areas. If that piece will continue to change, if the media, especially the hip hop entertainment media, will start to become even more democratized at that, from that perspective. Bun B 38:44 I think we have an advantage because there's always been this independent spirit, right? That if the powers that be won't allow us to use their platforms that will create our own, right? And it's that self sufficient mindset, right? Self sustaining mindset that would lend itself to this, right? It would lend itself to the point of content creation, right? We don't sit around and wait to find out who can distribute our content the best, who can we partner with. No, we're gonna figure out a way to create this content independently. And because of that, we are now the sole owners of the intellectual property, all of that term and all of that knowledge and application lends itself to the metaverse, right? Because you have your own small group of people, right? That has been supporting you outside of the major media system. So now you started discord with those people. And now all those people are communicating with each other in real time, constantly and consistently. You can find out exactly what it is that they all have in common in terms of their connection with you. And now, you can feed that beast properly. You can give it a better diet, because it's more refined. You know exactly what it is that they're coming for. It's for sustenance, right? So you can take all of the filler out of the presentation and just give them exactly what it is that they need. You can't ask for a better access from an artist perspective, right? This is exactly what you would want. People used to pay 10s of 1000s of dollars for people to have special interest groups come in and tell them what people are thinking. Now you can have a place where all of the people that support you like you,and listen to you and appreciate you coming together and talk about what it is they like, and maybe what it is they don't like. So you can have a more fine tuned perception of what it is that people are supporting you for. We are in a perfect position, being from Houston, being self-sustained, being creators, content creators, and owners, right? To understand how to take full advantage of what the metaverse or Web 3.0 has to offer. That's why, me personally, I want to make sure that I'm out here leading the charge, not just for the next generation, but for prior generations, there's a place in space here for everybody. You know what I’m saying, and you don't need to wait until people invite you. It's wide open right now what make yourself at home. Dan Runcie 41:01 Love that. Love that. That's what it's about making the opportunities. No, that's amazing. That's amazing. A couple of questions here before we, before we let you go. I want to chat with you about the restaurant business because I know that's something that you've been deep in. I know you actually teamed up with my guy premium Pete as well on a few things in this space. And I know that you recently started Trill Burgers. It would be great to hear how that's been going and what your vision is and outlook is for that. Bun B 41:28 Well, anybody that knows me can look at me, you can tell that I like food, right? When I'm going to kid around with that I'm a big boy. And I like food. But as I've gotten older, I've gotten to appreciate the process more of cooking, but then also how restaurants work. I've made good relationships with a lot of people here in the restaurant and culinary world. And I've just been on the outside for so long. Like I'd love to have an entry point into this business, right? I'm not necessarily a chef, by trade or nature, my wife and I do a lot of cooking. We used to do a lot of cooking demos, and why not. But it was just about finding the right place, you know, the right place to enter and make it make sense. Good friends of mine owned a restaurant here in town, Sticky's Chicken, Patty and Vince, brother and sister, you know, great business. And they were bought out by a Restaurant Group who wanted to partner with me on a concept as well. So between myself and team Sticky's Chicken, the restaurant group that was approaching me, and a good friend of mine, Nick Schofield, who kind of helped bring everything together. They presented this burger concept, I had my own ideas of what it should be. We agreed on the inception. And the idea and the concept, presented it to the public. And it's been going amazing ever since, you know, we've been able to present it at a lot of great places like ComplexCon, AstroWorld, and we're set to do it at Coachella, pretty soon. So there's just a lot of great opportunities that are coming from that. Once people saw that I wanted to be more active in the food space, different people started to reach out. So I'm currently working with Paul Qui, an award winning chef from Texas, on a soul food restaurant concept with my wife, Queen Sophie. So that's going to be the next thing and looking at a lot of different local brands here that are doing amazing things with food, but can use maybe a little bit more energy and maybe a little bit more awareness to take them to the next level.  So I'm looking to partner with people as well, not just building an original concept, but seeing concepts that are really well thought out, really well fleshed out, have amazing food and again, could just use maybe a little energy or a little like: Hey, come over here and try this. So you know, I think in the next three to five years, man, I think there's gonna be a lot of really, really good opportunities for me in that space. We're already talking about how that translates into the metaverse and, and, and the idea of, you know, things happening in the real world as well as in a virtual world. So there's a lot of great ideas that we have on the table. I don't want to give everything away. But I think by the time we get to maybe NFT Denver, or NFT LA, will be presenting some of these new ideas from half of myself and the guys that I'm in business with. So, you know, the food industry is exciting for me to be a part of. But it's not just about brick and mortars. And it's not just about real world application. There's also room for this to extend into the metaverse as well. And we're all excited about that. Dan Runcie 44:19 I was just gonna say when you started talking about this, I'm already seeing a headline soon enough. Trill Burger has bought real estate in the metaverse to open up shop. Bun B 44:29 Hey, look, man, look, anything is possible nowadays. Like I said, this space is wide open. You know, there's a lot of things that my partners and I think make sense for us as a new brand. Personally, for my brand. They're encouraged to try it. I'm encouraged to support him in trying it. Again, it's not typical. It's not traditional, but I think maybe that's a good thing. You know, I think there's a lot of people looking for things that are outside of the box and outside of the norm, and I think we have some great progressive ideas that we could present to people that fall right in line with everything that everybody wants to be a part of the metaverse for. Dan Runcie 45:03 Can't wait. I feel like you know, I can already see the headline comments. So I'm excited to see it for sure. But no, for now, this would be the last question before we let you go. You were on the I'm an athlete podcast a couple pretty recently, us with Brandon Marshall and Perkins, a bunch of them. And you were talking about how Tom Brady is the Jay-Z of the NFL. And then you also mentioned that Aaron Rodgers is more like Naz. So who is that Bun B in the NFL? Who is Bun B? Bun B 45:33 Wow, no. When we had that conversation, I was asked that, and I didn't have a good answer. At the time. I haven’t thought about it. I've always been a fan of Frank Gore, the running back. Frank Gore is, I think, he's 40 right now, still out there. One of the strongest, toughest guys in the game going up against the young bucks, you know, always does well enough, right? Like, he's, he's not going to be the top running back, you know, maybe not even in the top 20. But he always does the job. He comes, he gets the job done. And he's a real leader in the locker room because he's a veteran. And that's why I want to be somebody that, look, if I show up, I'm going to do what I said, I'm going to do.You know what I'm saying. And I'm going to try to encourage other people and lead them in the right way because I've been playing this game, maybe longer than you guys are, and I can probably help you work smarter instead of working hard, you know. So I would say probably like a Frank Gore. But that's just me because I really like his style of play. Dan Runcie 46:29 That's a good answer. And I think he's actually up there and yardage. He might be in the top five for the NFL, for running back yards up there, right? Bun B 46:37 Oh, Brandon, back on. I think he's in the top 10. Yeah. 10. Yes. So he slowly and quietly right, very quietly, very quietly, put those numbers. Dan Runcie 46:45 Yeah, if people want to think that, but I couldn't see you getting in the ring with Deron Williams, though. I couldn’t have seen that happen. Bun B 46:51 No, no, no, no, I'm not gonna play that. I'm talking about on the field, I would make a better decision off the field than that. I'm not playing those kinds of games. You got to know your weight class. Dan Runcie 47:04 No, for sure. It's funny when I was thinking about this for you, the Dave that came to mind for me was Randall Cunningham. Wow. And here's why. Okay, because I think about someone like him and originator who, when he was, especially when he was doing his thing in Philly. I feel like that was just when people were starting to see, you know, the quarterback that could run in a quarterback that can throw and do his thing. And in many ways, that person paved the way for the Mahomes up today. And all of these guys that can do these things when the rules have changed a little bit. You know, there's a whole bunch of more past coverage, a little bit kinder to quarterbacks in a way where someone like Rambo Cunningham could have had, you know. You know, who knows what Randall Cunningham could do in this era, but it wasn't for Randall Cunningham doing what he did. He paved the way to make it possible for the young cats today. Bun B 47:55 I like the correlation. I like that. I'm not mad at that. I'm not mad at that. Dan Runcie 48:00 Now I hear that.  Bun B 48:01 Oh, come in. I'm with it.I'm with it. Dan Runcie 48:03 Nice. Nice. Bun B 48:05 It's good. You didn't compare me to scrub? Dan Runcie 48:08 For sure. For sure. Well, bond. This is fun. Man. I appreciate you for coming on. This was I mean, I think people are gonna get a lot out of this combo, for sure. And I know we talked in the beginning about everything you've got coming up. But what are some things coming up soon in the next couple months that you want to plug or let the trapital audience know about? Bun B 48:26 Oh, on March 11th. March 11th is going to be a big day for me. I'm going to be performing in Houston at the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo. For people that aren't from Houston, this is the 98 years. So it's a big part of Houston culture and tradition. And I'm the first black man from Houston to headline this event. So we're doing a big event there. I'm bringing out a lot of guys like Slim Thug, Paul Wall, Mike Jones and bringing out a lot of local guys because, you know, we've never been able to be a part of this on this level. And so I want to share this moment with other people who grew up in the city like me, and understand what it means to be able to be a black man from the city on that stage. You know, on that same day, I'm releasing a new album called MoTrill. It's a collaboration with a producer from Houston named Corey Moe, one of Pimp C's production protegees, and so we have a collaborative album together. The first single is out right now it's called Hesitate is with me, Tobe Nwigwe, Talib Kweli and David Banner. It's a more mature album, you know, like I'm acting my age, you know, I'm age appropriate. And I want to make music that people from my generation can listen to and enjoy and be lit on their own level. Because there's a lot of things in modern music that people from my generation just can't relate to. You know what I’m saying. I'll maybe appreciate it on the level that it should be appreciated. So I want to make sure that I'm still making current new music for people who've been along with me on this 30 year journey, you know what I’m saying. I'm not gonna leave him here like this. We don't keep going until we can't. No, I love that. Right. So March 11th Man, to be looking for a lot for me that day and a couple of different surprises, too. I got a lot of things coming up in this metaverse space, you know, a couple of collaborations now that I have a clear idea of what people would want for me. That was really a lot of what I was trying to do, was to figure out how would people want an NFT for me? What would you know, what, what would you want to see from me? What would make sense for me, right? And so I think we've got a really good idea of how to present ourselves in a space, make it easy, you know, make it not just a, you know, an NFT but also something that has something tangible physically attached to it, you know, make it a deeper experience for people. And we got some really good ideas. I'm partnering with a good friend of mine, and I think we're gonna have something present to people. Hopefully by March that'll be really fun and encouraging, we'll extend throughout the year. Like it's we've got some really cool stuff attached. So just keep your eyes open. Keep following him on social media on Instagram @BunB on Twitter @BunBTrillOG. And on Facebook @RealBunBofUGK and stay posted we got to be: Oh, and we got the discord coming soon. So stay tuned to my Twitter. We will probably be putting all the discord information out through the Twitter page. So there's I noticed that a lot of energy from metaverse and, and Web 3.0 takes place on Twitter. So we're moving all that energy there so we can go straight to the people that are already engaged. But we're excited for what the year has to be, you know, have this store and years to come. Dan Runcie 48:53 We'll keep an eye out for that man excited for you can't wait, Bun thanks again, man. Bun B 51:35 Thanks, Dan. Dan Runcie 51:40 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link,texted to a friend, posted in your group chat, posted in your Slack groups wherever you and your people talk to spread the word. That's how trapnell continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it if you use Apple podcast, go ahead rate the podcast, give it a high rating and Weaver review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. Thu, 17 Feb 2022 14:00:00 -0000 Bun B Believes The Metaverse Will Open Up Access Between Artists & Fans full Dan Runcie In this week's show, we have a hip hop legend, Bun B. Best known as one-half of the Southern rap duo UGK, Bun along with Pimp C formed UGK in the late '80s when their former crew, Four Black Ministers, fell apart. Based in Port Arthur, Texas, UGK signed with Jive, and with 1992's Too Hard to Swallow began a series of Southern gangsta rap albums that were successful sellers.   In 2005, Bun B carried on solo, and released both the mixtape Legends, and his debut album Trill extending his presence into the 2010s with Trill O.G.: The Epilogue and Return of the Trill, just as a generation of younger MCs looked up to the influential veteran for inspiration. Since then he has continued to experiment and always try what’s new, specially in the technology field, to take full advantage of it.   We have an insightful talk on what he’s doing with NFT’s and Web 3.0, and discuss broadly about the metaverse. Tune in to discover how Bun has positioned artists and himself in this incredible space!   Episode Highlights [02:50] Bun’s insights about NFT’s and EulerBeats [05:09] Technology advances in the music industry: Vinyl, cassettes, CD’s, mp3 [06:36] Bun’s wallet and the genuine aspect of being someone that is producing art and trying to consume it in space vs the cash grab [13:26] How NFT’s shapes the way Bun chooses to release music in the future [17:01] Bun’s outlook about putting himself in the frontlines for all types of things [20:41] Pimp C and testing technology in 1995 with the Ridin’ Dirty album [24:00] Doing more metaverse concerts for more artistic interpretation [29:42] The real advancement of technology with the Nintendo Wii. [35:02] Hip hop artists in Houston [38:49] Hip hop entertainment media becoming more democratized [40:40] Bun’s perception of how to take full advantage of what the metaverse and web 3.0 have to offer [41:28] Bun’s Trill Burger Restaurant [48:20] What Bun wants the “Trapital” audience to know about Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Bun B Twitter: @BunBTrillOG Instagram: @bunb Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands _______ How Bun B Has Positioned Hip Hop Artists in the Metaverse Space Bun B 00:00 All of this different stuff. I do believe that you can do things in a metaverse concert that you maybe can't do in real life, right? Levels of production interaction, people communicating to you in real-time, right? In ways that you probably couldn't do in the middle of a fully organized and fully produced concert. Dan Runcie 00:27 Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. This episode is with hip hop legend, Bun B. This man needs no introduction. But everyone on this podcast is going to get one, especially a legend in the game, like Bun.  It's wild to think this is coming up on 30 years since Bun and Pimp C dropped their debut album as UGK. And each evolution of his journey Bun has continued to experiment, continue to try what's new. And what he's been doing recently with NFT's and with Web 3.0 is a great example of that. He recently linked up with Cryptopunk Rapper Spottie WiFi. And Bun and I talked all about the releases that they have planned what their strategy has been with NFT's and we talk more broadly about the metaverse. What does that look like for hip-hop artists? How Bun has positioned themselves in this space, and what UGK's approach to NFT's would have looked like. We also talked about what Bun's been doing in the restaurant business, Houston, hip hop artist, who his NFL comparison is, and a whole lot more. It's always great to host the legends on this podcast. And it was an honor for him to join me on this one. Here's my with the Trill OG.  All right, we got the Trill OG with us himself, Bun B. Welcome, man. It's great to have you on the pod. Bun B 02:02 Likewise, man, thanks for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation today. Dan Runcie 02:06 Yeah, man, this is dope, because I feel like there has been so much movement lately going on with NFT's and how artists are making moves. And you've been making a bunch of moves in this space, you recently teamed up with another artist, Spottie WiFi. And it's been dope just to see how you all have thoughtfully planned out what you're doing. And all of these steps the past year where I feel like most people are just gonna wrap their heads around what an NFT actually is and how to do it. So yeah, it will be good to hear. What was your entry point to this? Like, when did you first hear about this stuff, and then something clicked when you're like: Okay, I'm gonna make a move in this space. Bun B 02:50 So I got approached last summer. A good friend of mine used to be my video producer advice many years ago, reached out to me and he said: Bun, I know you're a forward thinker. I know you're, you know, relatively open minded guy. Have you heard of NFT's? And I was like, vaguely, but because of the fact that I was I was a little late to crypto, so I wasn't, you know, big on Discord and all of that kind of thing. So I was very unfamiliar, to be honest, seems like well, I have a guy, he's, you know, very fluent. And, you know, he's doing these different kinds of things called EulerBeats, and I was like, what, what is a EulerBeat? And the way it was explained to me, and I'm definitely paraphrasing here, it's like a computer algorithm is put in and it kicked out beats or whatever. So basically, these were beats that were kicked out by because some kind of computer program or algorithm by some scientist named Euler. And so different people were buying these EulerBeats, doing remixes to them and so forth. So one of the guys that owned one reached out to my friend and was like, you know, if you'd like to collaborate, I'd love to see if you would want to rap over one of these beats, you know, so I did something, it was very minimal. It was really only like a hook and a verse and it was called going crazy over crypto. And I just use a lot of different terminology from this, as I did my research, talking about Foundation, and open sea and stuff like that, you know, very, very surface level terminology. And it did fairly well it because the guy that I partnered with was already well known in the space. And so that went well, and I guess the word kind of got out. So then I had another friend reach out to me and he was like: Hey, I have a good friend. He is a crypto punk owner, and he's actually like, the first crypto punk rapper. I'm like: Well, I don't even know what that means. But, you know, let's let's get us all on a call. And that's when I was introduced to Spidey and Spidey explained to me the idea of the crypto punk NFT and him putting like an identity to his and turn it into like this character, which I thought was like really cool, real cutting edge and some next level shit. And being an older artist, you know, I'll be celebrating my 30 year anniversary this month. And so I've watched the music industry changed from vinyl to cassettes, cassettes to CDs, CDs to mp3. So you know and watch the record business go from the traditional model of record stores into these online stores, right? So for me, it's it's vital that I'm prepared to change with the time when this technology advances. And so when I started to find out more and more about not only NFT's but cryptocurrency and this whole idea of Web 3.0 in the metaverse and where everything is going, I was like: Man, I really hope I can find my way into this. And luckily, people who are already in the space reached out to me, so I didn't have to do that much initial heavy lifting, right? These guys kind of carried it for me. But then once they brought this stuff to me, I got very intrigued and I started to do my own research. And now like just watching these different brands and different people being associated with different stuff and seeing how you know, this board API club society is expanding, you know, through all facets of entertainment, man, it's really cool to watch. And it's really fun to be on a certain level a part of everything that's happening, right? Dan Runcie 06:22 Yeah, definitely. And I mean, you mentioned it a few of the names there. Obviously, we're talking about crypto punks board, API club. I feel like even outside of music, you must have stepped up your own collection as well with this stuff. What's your, what's your wallet looking like right now? Bun B 06:36 It's looking pretty good. You know, I had the full set, Medicard, somebody talked to me about that. I think my first really, really good purchase for me was an In-Betweener from Gianpiero. He's a digital artist and he's also the designer behind Drew, which is Justin Bieber's clothing line. So I was able that was like the first thing I was able to met Tristan Eaton, who was a good friend of mine. He's an amazing artist and muralist. He released some, some art called Gemma. So he gave me an NFT of his, and that allowed me to be able to meet stuff. So it's been really, really cool. Hundreds I bought an atom bomb from the Hundreds for Bobby Hundreds. And I caught it, like, at a really good price. And the ceiling is like two and a half times what it was when I got it. It's just been fun to get my hands on some of this stuff and just watch it grow, you know, but I'm trying to hold on to as much of it as possible, personally. Yeah, I did it for like, you know, quick buys and flips because I'll be honest, I wouldn't, I wouldn't fail to understand the industry enough to know what to buy and when to buy it. Whatever.  I'm finding some cool stuff. I have friends that tell me about some cool stuff happening. I go on, I check it out, you know, works for me people that, you know, sometimes I've been lucky enough to get whitelisted other times, I got to get in that thing and met like everybody else, you know, but it's been fun and exciting. You know, especially like I see now B.o.B is now getting into the metaverse, that's going to be a drop coming soon. Really interesting man to watch out for; all these brands are finding their way into the metaverse right now. But yeah, my wallet is, it's okay, you know, it's not crazy, because I'm very reserved about, like, I have crypto that I already have. So I'm just kind of playing with house money, if that makes any sense. Like I don't want to look into you know, dumping a lot of my personal income into it, you know, if I make the right decisions in the right choices and make a couple of bucks cool. And if not, you know, they're not going to cut the lights off over here anytime. So, but, but it's fun, it's fun to have a lot of friends now like Everlast, a recording artist Everlast. I talked to him all the time. And he's been an art collector for almost 30 years now of all different mediums of art, whether it's sculptures or toys, or paintings or what have you. And like he's like, very, very engaged because he just loves art, and he loves to appreciate art. And he has many friends that are artists that are releasing NFT's, and then other things that he sees that are you know, maybe based off of hip hop characters or something culturally that he has an attachment to, and he was just copied something you know, it's relatively, you know, most of these things meant typically around .01 Ether, so it's only a couple of $100 that you really have to invest. Again, like I said, I'm not I'm not sitting around trying to spend crazy money on some of this stuff. But it's been fun man. It's really fun to have some of this stuff and you know, you could send your friend a link to your wallet and show him what you got.My good friend, Clyde Edwards from sneaker box. He was hitting me. He's like: Yo, I see you got to In-Betweener about one to check out my wallet, and I sent him my wallet. We just kind of compared different stuff that people got man. It's, it's a different thing that people can bond over too. You know, like, I have a lot of friends that are into sneakers. There's a lot of sneaker based NFT's Nikki Diamond sent me over some crypto downs that he's doing, you know. I'm saying and now other people that I didn't even know were hidden and she's like: Yeah, kind of crypto down to like worry. Yeah, it only cost me .01 Ether, so it was like nothing. It's fun, man. It's really fun and interesting to see how the space is connecting with people and how, how different people's entry points vary based on their cultural cues, you know. Dan Runcie 10:06 Yeah! And I think your approach with it in terms of you're trying to buy these things and hold them, you're not trying to flip them. That's what separates the genuine aspect of being both someone that's producing art, but trying to consume it in the space versus the cash grabs. And I know that's something that both you and Spottie have been focused on making sure that the stuff you're putting out isn't just a cash grab. You're trying to put out something that people should want to buy and hold the same way you do with others. And I'm curious, are there certain things that you did to make sure that that was the image that was being presented, or the way that people would see it if they wanted to buy it? Because I know that with something like NFT's that can be a delicate thing to balance. Bun B 10:53 I think I do a lot of this, you know, especially with particularly with this collaboration with Spidey. I kind of followed his lead, and I didn't want to put too much of myself on it. Because I was new in this space. I didn't want to overtalk myself. I didn't over one want to overstep my boundaries. And I didn't want to mess up Spidey's reputation. He's very well known, and very well respected in the space. So for the most times, I just kind of took his lead on a lot of this stuff. He would recommend certain things to me, I would approach things from a very typical traditional release standpoint and engagement standpoint. He was like: No, well. I was like, should we go on Instagram Live? And he was like: Well, no,these things tend to work better on Twitter spaces, you know. So little things like that helped me connect and figure out the space a lot quicker. But Spottie, I mean, he was already releasing music as NFT's prior to our collaboration. So the system was already set up, I just tried not to step on anybody's toes, get in anybody's way. But I was curious about a lot of things as far as intellectual property and ownership. And, you know, it's very interesting how some of these things work, depending on what you're releasing, whether it’s video or it’s music, you know, different rules apply. So it's been educational for me as well. And now that I have this information, I have a lot of other artists, typically from my generation who are curious about it, who don't have a Spottie that they can go to. So I can kind of give them a very base entry level instructions, I try to point them in the right direction. But it's not the easiest thing for people to navigate to discord if they've never really been on one before, and don't really know the terminology, and how the communication is happening in the space. So and that's for me, like, I was just talking to a friend last night like: Yo, how do you monitor these discords? Like, how do you know who's meeting what and where? And he was like: Man, it's a language, you just got to figure out how to talk it. And once you figure out how to talk it, it's, you'll see everything happening. So I'm still learning, it's a process for sure. Because this is the space that I naturally operate in. But I'm always up to learn something new. Dan Runcie 13:02 Right. And because I think that's the perspective that obviously separates you from someone that would even want to try to do this as a cash grab to begin with. You already had a clear understanding, and then you have someone that's willing to ride it with you. And then you can help do other; help support other people with that, too. But yeah, it's, it's a lot I could imagine. And now that you've got in yourself up to speed with it, I wonder how this will shape how you choose to release your music in the future overall, with NFT's but then obviously, traditional album releases and things like that. Bun B 13:37 Well, it's just a further extension, right? It just gives me a deeper way of connecting with my base and with people who appreciate my art. So typically, we would only sell music to people, we would only be able to communicate to people through social media. But now in the metaverse, right? Like I can sell tickets to a virtual concert. While they're at the virtual concert, they can buy virtual merchandise, right? There's so many different ways that we can connect with people, and it doesn't all have to be monetary, right? We can have very real conversations. It's, you know, these Twitter spaces have been very interesting in terms of learning how people view art that don't necessarily have an entry point to me as a musician, right? So in determining, like in the future, what kind of NFT's we want to be involved with and how we want to present it. It has to be true to me and my art and what I represent. So a lot of those things won't maybe necessarily connect,and they won't be something that I could sell for a bunch of money even if I wanted to. But the reality is, is that, I can't afford for this to be a cash grab, because I've got 30 years of reputation on the line, right? And I've always been upfront with people about what it is I represent and what I'm presenting. And so for me, this is just fun, right? It's very, it's fun. I'm trying to not try to sell stuff at an expensive price. I just want people to have a deeper experience in something that they're already enjoying, which is my music. So, we can create these remixes, right? Or like what I'm doing with Spidey where we're allowing people to remix the song, and present it, right? Like that's, that's fun; that's dope. But it's not something that would traditionally only play through a DJ or on a radio station, right? This thing will live and breathe on an entirely brand new platform. And it will inspire other people to approach these things from a different aspect or a different angle. And that's all I really want to do. As the OG, I'm typically the one that has to bite the bullet on this stuff; jump out there first, see if it's viable, see if it makes sense. And then, show other people: Hey, this is cool. Come on, you guys, it's safe to go this way. That's really all I'm trying to do. Now, you know, not necessarily for a lot of young people, because they get it: Younger people are more tech savvy than, say, my generation is, right? I want to let them know that this is a safe space, that they can operate it. But you can't jump in here and look at the money because these people can smell a poser a mile away. They can tell him to rug pool, they know what's going on. Because they were here first, you're the new guy, you know. So but it's, it's, um, it's encouraging, I will say that it is encouraging as an artist, you know. What new ways can I find to make this experience with the people that are appreciating my art and my music deeper? You know, how can it go further? How can it last longer? That's, that's a beautiful thing.  Dan Runcie 16:19 Yeah, and that's a good point. You mentioned earlier, you, especially within your generation, have always been the experimenter, you've always been more willing to put yourself out there and then see what it's like and then put others up on game. How do you think that developed? Like, where did that, you know, dynamic come from for you? Bun B 16:38 Well, you got to understand, I started rapping 30 plus years ago, when it wasn't even a viable job, right? People weren't rich from rap when I first got into it, but it was new. It was, it was amazing, right? The graffiti aspect of it, the breakdance aspect of it, watching the DJ, manipulating the records, and watching these guys create songs, impromptu like right in front of you. It was amazing. It was something I wanted to be a part of. And back then, you know, my mother was against it, a lot of people didn't think I would make it, it'd be successful. But I was like: Look, I'll give it some time, I'll give it a shot, I'll at least take a chance. You know, for me, I've always been open minded to take a chance on things and not everything works out. But typically when they do, they work out big. So you know, no risk, no reward. That's always been, you know, my personal motto. And you know, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody physically, as long as it doesn't compromise my family's financial and physical security. I'm open for you know, I'm willing to test it and from where I'm from, if I don't try it first, some people will never give it a chance, you know. So again, if you, you know, if you call yourself an OG, then you have to put yourself on the frontlines for all types of things, you know, not just music and hip hop or street related stuff. But even with, you know, technology and finance and all this type of stuff. I want people to get the best experience they can out of life, you know, and if I can live life and show people: Hey, this is okay to do this is safe, you know, encourage people to take a chance and jump off that cliff and see, you know, saying the biggest one when they land, I'm with it, you know, because it's worked out for me. And I know, there were a lot of things I was able to accomplish that people said I couldn't do. So I want to encourage as many people out there as possible to take chances as well. Dan Runcie 18:21 Yeah, you mentioned there earlier with that, your mother in this and just you know her maybe not necessarily seeing it. And I think I heard you say this once that she didn't think that this was real until you were in Big Pimpin'. And that's when it, like, clicked for her. She was like: Oh, okay, like this is real now. Bun B 18:38 Yeah, a little earlier than that. But right, right around the same time, like we were, we had the number one album and jet magazine. And that was like a big deal, right? Because that was for her generation, the only way to gauge that kind of stuff. They really weren't into Billboard magazine, they didn't, you know, charts and all of that type of stuff. So that's where people will look at it back, a jet magazine, you'd see the top singles and the top albums. And when I have the Top album and jet magazine, she kind of had to look to take notice. She was like you really do make music because there was no way for her to really gauge it. We didn't have a lot of music videos, we didn't have a lot of media exposure. You know, a lot of it was really word of mouth; our earliest use as recording artists, even though we were signed to a major label. So nothing in my life showed that I was like a recording artist, I didn't really have, you know, the money and the cars, you know, to really show that I was doing all this stuff. I couldn't point at this magazine and say: Look and see me. I couldn't point at this TV show and say: Hey, there goes my video. So it, you know, it was these small little moments that my mom could relate to because a lot of hip hop culture, my mom didn't have a frame of reference for, you know, me. That's a good thing too. Because, you know, this is a very different environment sometimes that we can operate in pimps. My mom was always deeply involved in our career. And I wasn't always crazy about that because there's a lot of rooms that I felt she shouldn't have been in because things can get very aggressive sometimes. But saying all that to be said, once I did go out and show my mom that I was capable of doing this, she was all in. She's one of my biggest supporters now, but again, sometimes you just got to go out there and throw caution to the wind. And that's always been this recurring theme in my life where, you know, I have no idea where the next road is going to leave me. But I have to be prepared to take that step regardless, you know. Dan Runcie 20:25 Definitely. And I think with that, you mentioned Pimp C earlier. I feel like you and him together, just imagining what you all would have done and what USK’s, NFT approach and Web 3.0 approach would have been like, it would have been crazy. Bun B 20:41 Well, Pimp was very big about interaction, right? He was really, you know, we would have concerts, you know, we'd be done on stage, say, you know, 1:30 and we probably wouldn't leave the club till 2:00 o'clock. Because taking pictures and signing autographs and just talking to people. Pimp was really big on wanting to, like, stick around after the show and, like, actually communicate with people. He was always curious as to what was on people's minds. And right now, he would have been all over; I believe, like, the metaverse and this idea of. Because I remember, he was, he introduced me to LaserDisc, right? Like, I had no idea what LaserDisc was. And I was the movie guy. That was a crazy thing. I was a big movie buff that watched all the films. And he was like: Man, I think you would like this, because you can watch the movie, and the director will talk to you like the commentaries and all that stuff. So he was, and he was a producer, he worked with a lot of, you know, recording equipment. So he had to be on the cutting edge of technology. Many people don't know that Ridin' Dirty is one of the first albums to actually be recorded in Pro Tools. So it's one of the first rap albums to be recorded fully into digital format, you know, and we were using a, a beta as a beta version. So we were testing the technology. And this is back in 1995, back in 1996, you know, so we were always trying to take advantage of advances in technology throughout our career. So it would be no surprise that this would be something that he would be trying to be a part of as much as possible. And I mean, he was, you know, he was already a very animated person. So a cartoon character with Pimp C based on it in these, you know, NFT world, you know, you could have put different hats, different color mink coats on him, he would have had a ball with it. I guarantee. Dan Runcie 22:18 I could have, I could only imagine. I'm thinking about a clip of you all from international players Anthem Music Video, that would go crazy. Bun B 22:29 Oh, yeah, definitely, you know, and again, you know, you never know what people gravitate to, right? That's why it's important to just throw it all up against the wall, I talked about this yesterday. I was just like: Man, you never know what it is people like about what you do. So you just give them everything you got, present yourself fully, you know, saying be open, but be as transparent as possible, and let the people decide what it is they love about you. And once you find that connection point, you can expand on that and grow that connection. I think NFT's is the perfect place for that, because it allows multiple interpretations of a theme that's already associated with you. Dan Runcie 23:06 Right, right, for sure. I think with this, too. There's so much that's already known. And I think to a lot of people, you're definitely on the cutting edge with this. And I think naturally, you're probably: Like, okay, well, what is that thing going to be like three years from now, five years from now that everyone's gravitated towards? Do you have any ideas on what that could look like in music? Bun B 23:27 Well, I think for one in music, I think a lot of,especially, we look at, you know, with, with social distancing, and a pandemic, and how people had to start doing like online concerts and versus and all of this different stuff. I do believe that. You know, if you remember last year, Travis Scott, and I think Justin Bieber both did virtual concerts, right? Travis did one on Fortnite. I think you'll see a lot more of that because it allows for more artistic interpretation for the performer, right? So you can do things in a metaverse concert that you maybe can't do in real life, right? Levels of production interaction, people communicating to you in real time, right? In ways that you probably couldn't do in the middle of a fully organized and fully produced concert. I just think it allows people who appreciate what you do to have more access to you and what you do. And I think that for me, is where things are going to go. I think, I think there's going to be more. I think not only are we going to spend more time in the metaverse, I think we're going to be concerned about how we look in a metaverse, how we present ourselves in a metaverse as far as technology. And I think it'd be a lot closer to Ready Player One in the virtual sense, but not in the real world being this dystopian future kind of thing. I think we're okay for the next couple of years. I don't think mankind is going to, you know, turn into Mad Max that quick, right? I do think that people are going to spend, want to spend. I want to say that, everyone will want to spend more time. I think for me In the next three years, there's going to have to be some type of technological advance in the way we enter the metaverse because VR headsets for many people can be a very cumbersome thing to deal with for an extended period of time. And for me, that's the only thing with being in virtual reality for more than 20,30,40 minutes is the fact that the headset can get hot, especially if you're playing like Fruit Ninja, or boxing or working out, right? It gets hard to get sweaty. It's a lot. You know, I think as, I think as the technology starts to advance on that aspect, people will be more willing to get into it because it’s, it's kind of awkward, this big headset and these paddles and all of that. I think at some point, you know, if you look at who it is that is working with Oakley. Is it Facebook, or Google? That has the glasses, or is it not YouTube? Yeah, it's YouTube, right? We're with Oakley, where you can film things directly from, from the glasses. I think technology is going to lean more in that direction, I think we will be able to incorporate more of the metaverse on top of the real world so that you will be cognizant of where you are in the real world at the same time. So you're not tripping over the coffee table or something because people are going to want to incorporate this more into their everyday life. You won't be able to drive with it or maybe walk down the street with it. But I think you can move around and share spaces a little bit better, you know, but that's just me. I just want this to be a more pleasant experience and easily accessible experience. I think at some point, the metaverse will be as easily accessible as WiFi. If you can find a WiFi connection, you can jump right into the metaverse to connect with people in places. That's awesome. Starbucks is gonna look a lot different in three years. I could tell you. Dan Runcie 26:47 Yeah, I think, I think that's it. Because when I think about the VR companies like Magic Leap, or Oculus, where I think their growth slowed a bit was exactly what you said. Having that headset on for a long period of time does create a barrier and friction on so many levels. And I think that's why for that moment, we saw faster movement and growth in AR as opposed to VR, right? So I think, the next motion of that is like what you're saying with glasses, it's like a hybrid of those. You still have the thing over you, but it's still layered on top of the real world, you can still interact with whatever's happening around you. Bun B 27:25 The only problem is his peripheral, right? Like you have to figure out where the peripheral would stop with glasses, right? At some point, you still have to have simple coverage, right? In order to fully be constant in this space. But that doesn't, that's not always going to work. So I think, as long as someone can like with the click of a button, like, tablets have a real space in the back of their metaverse like the in and out, right? The accessibility, I think, to and back and forth, that's going to be the thing that I'm sure there's somewhere in, in the r&d departments trying to figure out right now. Definitely, I think this would be amazing, like on flights, like, just think if you have, like, a long international flight, right? You know, you get tired of watching movies, and listening to music and food. You can jump on, you know, the same phone, if there's like a WiFi experience, you can jump into the metaverse right there, you know, and interact with other people on a plane, right? Without, you know, without having to get up and go there. You can find out somebody in 34C is interested in the same things as you, you know, it could get sketchy too. You know, that could get sketchy too. I've been on planes before where people were randomly air dropping pictures to people that maybe they didn't want airdropped to them. Like that. But the world is full of wonder. I'm excited about the future , always have been, always will.  Dan Runcie 28:36 Yeah. And I also think we're still in the early days of this too. I mean, it's very real that I know that. I know that Facebook changed its name to Meta, and they may seem like the leader, but these companies, especially the new ones, they're growing fast. Every new social platform grows faster than the one before that. And like we're saying five years from now, just think about, like, how quick Tick Tock blew up, or how quick Clubhouse blew up in that, you know, few months, right? Bun B 29:01 And prevalent, not just that it grew up. It's prevalent, and it's accepted, you know, across the board, you know, different cultures, languages, gender identity, everybody's getting it the same way. I talk about this all the time, every now and then technology comes to people or an idea, or some level of artists presented and everyone receives it generally the same way, right? And I think that the metaverse is going to get to a point where it can present itself to the average consumer who isn't tech savvy, who doesn't have cryptocurrency, who doesn't have a metamask wallet with, with NFT's and tokens in it. But will still want to interact and engage. You know, I saw with the Nintendo Wii, I think the Nintendo Wii doesn't get enough credit for being a precursor to this. You know, that was something that everybody wanted to see what their face would look like, what their avatar would look like on the game and we could bowl and play tennis and all of that, right? I think that's going to come back around. I think we're going to see a happy medium between what we know VR to be, and what we want VR to be very soon. I think there's too many companies investing in a technology. There's too many upstarts. And there's too many people whose minds are not focused on this. It's happening. It's not about a matter of if, it's when it's happening right now. And everybody's getting on board, all these big corporations that you see creating NFT's and trying to sell up cheese. I remember when I saw the massive Thanksgiving parade floats were being sold as NFT's. I'm like, okay, and like, this is massive, right? Right. You know, saying like, get on board, like everybody can get on board. And you can hold out if you want, I held out on Twitter, I held out on Instagram and social media. And I'm pretty sure it cost me It cost me money. At some point. It cost me connectivity at some point. And you know, it cost me relationships because I wasn't there early, right? A lot of people that got there early, were able to take full advantage of it. And you know, a lot of us are still playing catch up with this kind of stuff. So as far as the, you know, Web 3.0 in the metaverse, I want to be, if not ahead of the game, at least I have my finger right on the side and on the cusp of what's to come.  Dan Runcie 31:11 That Nintendo Wii example is a really good one for a few reasons. Because I think it also signaled what people think is the real technology advancement, if that makes sense. Because up until that point, everything was about graphics. How can the Xbox One be upgraded graphics and the Xbox 360? Or a ps4? Whatever it is. Bun B 31:31 How close to reality can it look, right? Dan Runcie 31:34 Right, and their whole thing was like: Okay, maybe if it's less about that, but more about like: Okay, what is the actual experience that you can create with other people and making people do things? And that's why, we blew up when it did when it did, you know, let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor. Bun B 31:52 Yeah, so what's the goal, right? What was the goal of the Nintendo Wii for people to enjoy it together, right? So they focused on that, instead of how pretty the picture was going to look? And how sharp the animation was going to look and how fluid everything was going to be? No, it just, you know, the avatars just like the Apple avatars, right? They're fun, neat, animated character caricature versions of who we are, right? It's like spending the day at the pier or something, you know, and it allows the kids to play a game with the parents to play a game with the grandparents, you know. Nintendo Wii changed Thanksgiving weekend and changed Christmas and New Year's, right? Because now the whole family can gather around the television. And instead of watching a movie, we can all do Nintendo Wii bowling. I feel like technology is going to get more and more into that. The metaverse lends itself to that, you know, I'm saying. Especially if, say, you can get on your iPad, you can get on, on your cell phones, the kid can't get on on his Nintendo, right? I can get on, on my phone. And we can all be interacting, playing games against each other. You know, what was it there was, there were virtual dominoes, I remember that became a big thing during the pandemic, because people in different houses could play dominoes against each other. People who would normally come together and commune and play dominoes in person could play it virtually. Now imagine that there's an avatar, you know, I'm saying there's benefits, the winner could get this, we could all put .01 Ether or something. I don't want to encourage gambling, but it's just different ways for us to have fun together. You know, and I think, I think the metaverse is going to be perfect for that. Because if everybody just has to put something on, then we're all there. Now, you know, I love the idea of, of virtual art galleries, where you can have the stuff that's in your wallet, and it's on the wall, you can display it and present it to other people. You know, you can go by someone's gallery and look at their art, they can come and look at yours. We'll be having listening parties, people can come and commune, play albums and preview music and videos. But the world is wide open, and it's just about how open you are to it. Dan Runcie 33:54 That's exciting. I'm excited for that. I know you're going to be up on all of that. And I mean, I can't wait. I feel like of course with some of these things. You always feel it out to see, okay, what is, you know, the worthwhile thing to put the investment behind. But there's always going to be things and I think, I think it's going to be bright ahead so I can't wait for that.  Switching gears a bit though, I want to talk a bit more about hip hop and I want to talk about Houston specifically. Because obviously you're a legend in this game, you know, play in Port Arthur, Texas on the map. And it's been great. You mentioned Travis Scott earlier. It's been great to see what he's done. It's been great to see what Megan Stallion has done as well. And I feel like, you know, you've mentioned that especially in the 90s, Houston necessarily wasn't getting you know, all the love that it definitely deserved. And now we are starting to see a few more Houston artists get some of that mainstream awareness that maybe the earlier generation didn't get. But I'm curious, where you think things are right now. Do you feel like Houston is finally getting its fair share? Do you think they're still selling room there for the region? Bun B 35:02 Well, I think the only thing that has really held us back here has always been media, the media accessibility, right? Not being in New York and not being in Los Angeles, which are media capitals of the world, not just of the US, right? There is all the accessibility to magazines, to TV shows, right? To entertainment conglomerates, in general, all the access is there. We've always been operating on the outside. Well, now with social media, it kind of levels the playing field. And if we're all operating on a level playing field, then yes, we can compete with anybody, we can compete with any and everybody on any level. So that's why I think you start to see more not just prominence of, of Houston artists, but Houston artists on a major level, right? Because everybody can be a part of the experience. At the same time, people now have been educated to Houston's street scene, Houston's music scene, everybody knows what the car the candy painted cars are, you know, DJ Screw, they know all of that everybody has the cultural cues to it. And since we're all operating on that same,even playing, let's just see who's got the best talent and who presents themselves in the best way. And you'd be hard pressed to find somebody to present that presents themselves live on stage in person better than someone like a Travis Scott, or a Megan Thee Stallion. Obviously, Travis has, you know, has a lot that he's going through right now. But I don't think anyone would ever say that Travis wasn't one of the best performances out there, right? So if we're given the same opportunities in the same platforms that everyone else has to present ourselves to the masses. Houston has just a chance, if not even more of a chance of being successful on a grand scale than everyone else, because we had to learn how to operate without mass media outlets, you know what I'm saying. So if we can build up a following based on that. Well, once we get access to the media outlets, it was game over at that point, right? So yeah, I look at a lot of the talent, you know, people like Maxo Kream on the edge, you know, people like Fat Tony, there's a lot of great up and coming talent coming out of Houston Sauce Walka and Peso Peso, Trill Sammy, Dice SoHo, a lot of really good talent coming out of the city. And they're all finding their fan bases through social media. So they're the people that they are connecting with while it may not be a million people at one time. That 150,000-250,000 group that they're connecting with, they're building strong connections, they're building connections that will last for years to come. And it's important to do that. I tell artists all the time, you don't need a million fans to make a million dollars. You know, that's a big misconception that you need to sell a million things to someone to make a million dollars to a million people. No, it doesn't have to be at all. If you’re consistent, 10,000 people spending money with you; 10,000 people spending 50 bucks with you, on a monthly basis will make you a millionaire in a year. So don't be greedy. Just be consistent and patient. Dan Runcie 37:59 Definitely. And I think to that, obviously, the internet helps democratize so much of this. But to your point, I think you're still highlighting this, that medium still does make a difference for a lot of these artists, and especially in the hubs that they're in. So I feel like it's getting closer to that point where things are equalized. But unfortunately, there still is some benefit that the artist that is close to the New York or close to the LA would have. But I'm curious, especially as we're thinking about whether it's the metaverse or just future development in different areas. If that piece will continue to change, if the media, especially the hip hop entertainment media, will start to become even more democratized at that, from that perspective. Bun B 38:44 I think we have an advantage because there's always been this independent spirit, right? That if the powers that be won't allow us to use their platforms that will create our own, right? And it's that self sufficient mindset, right? Self sustaining mindset that would lend itself to this, right? It would lend itself to the point of content creation, right? We don't sit around and wait to find out who can distribute our content the best, who can we partner with. No, we're gonna figure out a way to create this content independently. And because of that, we are now the sole owners of the intellectual property, all of that term and all of that knowledge and application lends itself to the metaverse, right? Because you have your own small group of people, right? That has been supporting you outside of the major media system. So now you started discord with those people. And now all those people are communicating with each other in real time, constantly and consistently. You can find out exactly what it is that they all have in common in terms of their connection with you. And now, you can feed that beast properly. You can give it a better diet, because it's more refined. You know exactly what it is that they're coming for. It's for sustenance, right? So you can take all of the filler out of the presentation and just give them exactly what it is that they need. You can't ask for a better access from an artist perspective, right? This is exactly what you would want. People used to pay 10s of 1000s of dollars for people to have special interest groups come in and tell them what people are thinking. Now you can have a place where all of the people that support you like you,and listen to you and appreciate you coming together and talk about what it is they like, and maybe what it is they don't like. So you can have a more fine tuned perception of what it is that people are supporting you for. We are in a perfect position, being from Houston, being self-sustained, being creators, content creators, and owners, right? To understand how to take full advantage of what the metaverse or Web 3.0 has to offer. That's why, me personally, I want to make sure that I'm out here leading the charge, not just for the next generation, but for prior generations, there's a place in space here for everybody. You know what I’m saying, and you don't need to wait until people invite you. It's wide open right now what make yourself at home. Dan Runcie 41:01 Love that. Love that. That's what it's about making the opportunities. No, that's amazing. That's amazing. A couple of questions here before we, before we let you go. I want to chat with you about the restaurant business because I know that's something that you've been deep in. I know you actually teamed up with my guy premium Pete as well on a few things in this space. And I know that you recently started Trill Burgers. It would be great to hear how that's been going and what your vision is and outlook is for that. Bun B 41:28 Well, anybody that knows me can look at me, you can tell that I like food, right? When I'm going to kid around with that I'm a big boy. And I like food. But as I've gotten older, I've gotten to appreciate the process more of cooking, but then also how restaurants work. I've made good relationships with a lot of people here in the restaurant and culinary world. And I've just been on the outside for so long. Like I'd love to have an entry point into this business, right? I'm not necessarily a chef, by trade or nature, my wife and I do a lot of cooking. We used to do a lot of cooking demos, and why not. But it was just about finding the right place, you know, the right place to enter and make it make sense. Good friends of mine owned a restaurant here in town, Sticky's Chicken, Patty and Vince, brother and sister, you know, great business. And they were bought out by a Restaurant Group who wanted to partner with me on a concept as well. So between myself and team Sticky's Chicken, the restaurant group that was approaching me, and a good friend of mine, Nick Schofield, who kind of helped bring everything together. They presented this burger concept, I had my own ideas of what it should be. We agreed on the inception. And the idea and the concept, presented it to the public. And it's been going amazing ever since, you know, we've been able to present it at a lot of great places like ComplexCon, AstroWorld, and we're set to do it at Coachella, pretty soon. So there's just a lot of great opportunities that are coming from that. Once people saw that I wanted to be more active in the food space, different people started to reach out. So I'm currently working with Paul Qui, an award winning chef from Texas, on a soul food restaurant concept with my wife, Queen Sophie. So that's going to be the next thing and looking at a lot of different local brands here that are doing amazing things with food, but can use maybe a little bit more energy and maybe a little bit more awareness to take them to the next level.  So I'm looking to partner with people as well, not just building an original concept, but seeing concepts that are really well thought out, really well fleshed out, have amazing food and again, could just use maybe a little energy or a little like: Hey, come over here and try this. So you know, I think in the next three to five years, man, I think there's gonna be a lot of really, really good opportunities for me in that space. We're already talking about how that translates into the metaverse and, and, and the idea of, you know, things happening in the real world as well as in a virtual world. So there's a lot of great ideas that we have on the table. I don't want to give everything away. But I think by the time we get to maybe NFT Denver, or NFT LA, will be presenting some of these new ideas from half of myself and the guys that I'm in business with. So, you know, the food industry is exciting for me to be a part of. But it's not just about brick and mortars. And it's not just about real world application. There's also room for this to extend into the metaverse as well. And we're all excited about that. Dan Runcie 44:19 I was just gonna say when you started talking about this, I'm already seeing a headline soon enough. Trill Burger has bought real estate in the metaverse to open up shop. Bun B 44:29 Hey, look, man, look, anything is possible nowadays. Like I said, this space is wide open. You know, there's a lot of things that my partners and I think make sense for us as a new brand. Personally, for my brand. They're encouraged to try it. I'm encouraged to support him in trying it. Again, it's not typical. It's not traditional, but I think maybe that's a good thing. You know, I think there's a lot of people looking for things that are outside of the box and outside of the norm, and I think we have some great progressive ideas that we could present to people that fall right in line with everything that everybody wants to be a part of the metaverse for. Dan Runcie 45:03 Can't wait. I feel like you know, I can already see the headline comments. So I'm excited to see it for sure. But no, for now, this would be the last question before we let you go. You were on the I'm an athlete podcast a couple pretty recently, us with Brandon Marshall and Perkins, a bunch of them. And you were talking about how Tom Brady is the Jay-Z of the NFL. And then you also mentioned that Aaron Rodgers is more like Naz. So who is that Bun B in the NFL? Who is Bun B? Bun B 45:33 Wow, no. When we had that conversation, I was asked that, and I didn't have a good answer. At the time. I haven’t thought about it. I've always been a fan of Frank Gore, the running back. Frank Gore is, I think, he's 40 right now, still out there. One of the strongest, toughest guys in the game going up against the young bucks, you know, always does well enough, right? Like, he's, he's not going to be the top running back, you know, maybe not even in the top 20. But he always does the job. He comes, he gets the job done. And he's a real leader in the locker room because he's a veteran. And that's why I want to be somebody that, look, if I show up, I'm going to do what I said, I'm going to do.You know what I'm saying. And I'm going to try to encourage other people and lead them in the right way because I've been playing this game, maybe longer than you guys are, and I can probably help you work smarter instead of working hard, you know. So I would say probably like a Frank Gore. But that's just me because I really like his style of play. Dan Runcie 46:29 That's a good answer. And I think he's actually up there and yardage. He might be in the top five for the NFL, for running back yards up there, right? Bun B 46:37 Oh, Brandon, back on. I think he's in the top 10. Yeah. 10. Yes. So he slowly and quietly right, very quietly, very quietly, put those numbers. Dan Runcie 46:45 Yeah, if people want to think that, but I couldn't see you getting in the ring with Deron Williams, though. I couldn’t have seen that happen. Bun B 46:51 No, no, no, no, I'm not gonna play that. I'm talking about on the field, I would make a better decision off the field than that. I'm not playing those kinds of games. You got to know your weight class. Dan Runcie 47:04 No, for sure. It's funny when I was thinking about this for you, the Dave that came to mind for me was Randall Cunningham. Wow. And here's why. Okay, because I think about someone like him and originator who, when he was, especially when he was doing his thing in Philly. I feel like that was just when people were starting to see, you know, the quarterback that could run in a quarterback that can throw and do his thing. And in many ways, that person paved the way for the Mahomes up today. And all of these guys that can do these things when the rules have changed a little bit. You know, there's a whole bunch of more past coverage, a little bit kinder to quarterbacks in a way where someone like Rambo Cunningham could have had, you know. You know, who knows what Randall Cunningham could do in this era, but it wasn't for Randall Cunningham doing what he did. He paved the way to make it possible for the young cats today. Bun B 47:55 I like the correlation. I like that. I'm not mad at that. I'm not mad at that. Dan Runcie 48:00 Now I hear that.  Bun B 48:01 Oh, come in. I'm with it.I'm with it. Dan Runcie 48:03 Nice. Nice. Bun B 48:05 It's good. You didn't compare me to scrub? Dan Runcie 48:08 For sure. For sure. Well, bond. This is fun. Man. I appreciate you for coming on. This was I mean, I think people are gonna get a lot out of this combo, for sure. And I know we talked in the beginning about everything you've got coming up. But what are some things coming up soon in the next couple months that you want to plug or let the trapital audience know about? Bun B 48:26 Oh, on March 11th. March 11th is going to be a big day for me. I'm going to be performing in Houston at the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo. For people that aren't from Houston, this is the 98 years. So it's a big part of Houston culture and tradition. And I'm the first black man from Houston to headline this event. So we're doing a big event there. I'm bringing out a lot of guys like Slim Thug, Paul Wall, Mike Jones and bringing out a lot of local guys because, you know, we've never been able to be a part of this on this level. And so I want to share this moment with other people who grew up in the city like me, and understand what it means to be able to be a black man from the city on that stage. You know, on that same day, I'm releasing a new album called MoTrill. It's a collaboration with a producer from Houston named Corey Moe, one of Pimp C's production protegees, and so we have a collaborative album together. The first single is out right now it's called Hesitate is with me, Tobe Nwigwe, Talib Kweli and David Banner. It's a more mature album, you know, like I'm acting my age, you know, I'm age appropriate. And I want to make music that people from my generation can listen to and enjoy and be lit on their own level. Because there's a lot of things in modern music that people from my generation just can't relate to. You know what I’m saying. I'll maybe appreciate it on the level that it should be appreciated. So I want to make sure that I'm still making current new music for people who've been along with me on this 30 year journey, you know what I’m saying. I'm not gonna leave him here like this. We don't keep going until we can't. No, I love that. Right. So March 11th Man, to be looking for a lot for me that day and a couple of different surprises, too. I got a lot of things coming up in this metaverse space, you know, a couple of collaborations now that I have a clear idea of what people would want for me. That was really a lot of what I was trying to do, was to figure out how would people want an NFT for me? What would you know, what, what would you want to see from me? What would make sense for me, right? And so I think we've got a really good idea of how to present ourselves in a space, make it easy, you know, make it not just a, you know, an NFT but also something that has something tangible physically attached to it, you know, make it a deeper experience for people. And we got some really good ideas. I'm partnering with a good friend of mine, and I think we're gonna have something present to people. Hopefully by March that'll be really fun and encouraging, we'll extend throughout the year. Like it's we've got some really cool stuff attached. So just keep your eyes open. Keep following him on social media on Instagram @BunB on Twitter @BunBTrillOG. And on Facebook @RealBunBofUGK and stay posted we got to be: Oh, and we got the discord coming soon. So stay tuned to my Twitter. We will probably be putting all the discord information out through the Twitter page. So there's I noticed that a lot of energy from metaverse and, and Web 3.0 takes place on Twitter. So we're moving all that energy there so we can go straight to the people that are already engaged. But we're excited for what the year has to be, you know, have this store and years to come. Dan Runcie 48:53 We'll keep an eye out for that man excited for you can't wait, Bun thanks again, man. Bun B 51:35 Thanks, Dan. Dan Runcie 51:40 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link,texted to a friend, posted in your group chat, posted in your Slack groups wherever you and your people talk to spread the word. That's how trapnell continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it if you use Apple podcast, go ahead rate the podcast, give it a high rating and Weaver review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week. In this week's show, we have a hip hop legend, Bun B. Best known as one-half of the Southern rap duo UGK, Bun along with Pimp C formed UGK in the late '80s when their former crew, Four Black Ministers, fell apart. Based in Port Arthur, Texas, UGK signed with Jive, and with 1992's Too Hard to Swallow began a series of Southern gangsta rap albums that were successful sellers.

 

In 2005, Bun B carried on solo, and released both the mixtape Legends, and his debut album Trill extending his presence into the 2010s with Trill O.G.: The Epilogue and Return of the Trill, just as a generation of younger MCs looked up to the influential veteran for inspiration. Since then he has continued to experiment and always try what’s new, specially in the technology field, to take full advantage of it.

 

We have an insightful talk on what he’s doing with NFT’s and Web 3.0, and discuss broadly about the metaverse. Tune in to discover how Bun has positioned artists and himself in this incredible space!

 

Episode Highlights


[02:50] Bun’s insights about NFT’s and EulerBeats

[05:09] Technology advances in the music industry: Vinyl, cassettes, CD’s, mp3

[06:36] Bun’s wallet and the genuine aspect of being someone that is producing art and trying to consume it in space vs the cash grab

[13:26] How NFT’s shapes the way Bun chooses to release music in the future

[17:01] Bun’s outlook about putting himself in the frontlines for all types of things

[20:41] Pimp C and testing technology in 1995 with the Ridin’ Dirty album

[24:00] Doing more metaverse concerts for more artistic interpretation

[29:42] The real advancement of technology with the Nintendo Wii.

[35:02] Hip hop artists in Houston

[38:49] Hip hop entertainment media becoming more democratized

[40:40] Bun’s perception of how to take full advantage of what the metaverse and web 3.0 have to offer

[41:28] Bun’s Trill Burger Restaurant

[48:20] What Bun wants the “Trapital” audience to know about


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Bun B Twitter: @BunBTrillOG

Instagram: @bunb


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 



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How Bun B Has Positioned Hip Hop Artists in the Metaverse Space



Bun B 00:00

All of this different stuff. I do believe that you can do things in a metaverse concert that you maybe can't do in real life, right? Levels of production interaction, people communicating to you in real-time, right? In ways that you probably couldn't do in the middle of a fully organized and fully produced concert.


Dan Runcie 00:27

Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more who are taking hip-hop culture to the next level. This episode is with hip hop legend, Bun B. This man needs no introduction. But everyone on this podcast is going to get one, especially a legend in the game, like Bun. 


It's wild to think this is coming up on 30 years since Bun and Pimp C dropped their debut album as UGK. And each evolution of his journey Bun has continued to experiment, continue to try what's new. And what he's been doing recently with NFT's and with Web 3.0 is a great example of that. He recently linked up with Cryptopunk Rapper Spottie WiFi. And Bun and I talked all about the releases that they have planned what their strategy has been with NFT's and we talk more broadly about the metaverse. What does that look like for hip-hop artists? How Bun has positioned themselves in this space, and what UGK's approach to NFT's would have looked like. We also talked about what Bun's been doing in the restaurant business, Houston, hip hop artist, who his NFL comparison is, and a whole lot more. It's always great to host the legends on this podcast. And it was an honor for him to join me on this one. Here's my with the Trill OG. 


All right, we got the Trill OG with us himself, Bun B. Welcome, man. It's great to have you on the pod.


Bun B 02:02

Likewise, man, thanks for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation today.


Dan Runcie 02:06

Yeah, man, this is dope, because I feel like there has been so much movement lately going on with NFT's and how artists are making moves. And you've been making a bunch of moves in this space, you recently teamed up with another artist, Spottie WiFi. And it's been dope just to see how you all have thoughtfully planned out what you're doing. And all of these steps the past year where I feel like most people are just gonna wrap their heads around what an NFT actually is and how to do it. So yeah, it will be good to hear. What was your entry point to this? Like, when did you first hear about this stuff, and then something clicked when you're like: Okay, I'm gonna make a move in this space.


Bun B 02:50

So I got approached last summer. A good friend of mine used to be my video producer advice many years ago, reached out to me and he said: Bun, I know you're a forward thinker. I know you're, you know, relatively open minded guy. Have you heard of NFT's? And I was like, vaguely, but because of the fact that I was I was a little late to crypto, so I wasn't, you know, big on Discord and all of that kind of thing. So I was very unfamiliar, to be honest, seems like well, I have a guy, he's, you know, very fluent. And, you know, he's doing these different kinds of things called EulerBeats, and I was like, what, what is a EulerBeat? And the way it was explained to me, and I'm definitely paraphrasing here, it's like a computer algorithm is put in and it kicked out beats or whatever. So basically, these were beats that were kicked out by because some kind of computer program or algorithm by some scientist named Euler. And so different people were buying these EulerBeats, doing remixes to them and so forth.


So one of the guys that owned one reached out to my friend and was like, you know, if you'd like to collaborate, I'd love to see if you would want to rap over one of these beats, you know, so I did something, it was very minimal. It was really only like a hook and a verse and it was called going crazy over crypto. And I just use a lot of different terminology from this, as I did my research, talking about Foundation, and open sea and stuff like that, you know, very, very surface level terminology. And it did fairly well it because the guy that I partnered with was already well known in the space. And so that went well, and I guess the word kind of got out. So then I had another friend reach out to me and he was like: Hey, I have a good friend. He is a crypto punk owner, and he's actually like, the first crypto punk rapper. I'm like: Well, I don't even know what that means. But, you know, let's let's get us all on a call. And that's when I was introduced to Spidey and Spidey explained to me the idea of the crypto punk NFT and him putting like an identity to his and turn it into like this character, which I thought was like really cool, real cutting edge and some next level shit. And being an older artist, you know, I'll be celebrating my 30 year anniversary this month. And so I've watched the music industry changed from vinyl to cassettes, cassettes to CDs, CDs to mp3. So you know and watch the record business go from the traditional model of record stores into these online stores, right? So for me, it's it's vital that I'm prepared to change with the time when this technology advances. And so when I started to find out more and more about not only NFT's but cryptocurrency and this whole idea of Web 3.0 in the metaverse and where everything is going, I was like: Man, I really hope I can find my way into this. And luckily, people who are already in the space reached out to me, so I didn't have to do that much initial heavy lifting, right? These guys kind of carried it for me. But then once they brought this stuff to me, I got very intrigued and I started to do my own research. And now like just watching these different brands and different people being associated with different stuff and seeing how you know, this board API club society is expanding, you know, through all facets of entertainment, man, it's really cool to watch. And it's really fun to be on a certain level a part of everything that's happening, right?


Dan Runcie 06:22

Yeah, definitely. And I mean, you mentioned it a few of the names there. Obviously, we're talking about crypto punks board, API club. I feel like even outside of music, you must have stepped up your own collection as well with this stuff. What's your, what's your wallet looking like right now?


Bun B 06:36

It's looking pretty good. You know, I had the full set, Medicard, somebody talked to me about that. I think my first really, really good purchase for me was an In-Betweener from Gianpiero. He's a digital artist and he's also the designer behind Drew, which is Justin Bieber's clothing line. So I was able that was like the first thing I was able to met Tristan Eaton, who was a good friend of mine. He's an amazing artist and muralist. He released some, some art called Gemma. So he gave me an NFT of his, and that allowed me to be able to meet stuff. So it's been really, really cool. Hundreds I bought an atom bomb from the Hundreds for Bobby Hundreds. And I caught it, like, at a really good price. And the ceiling is like two and a half times what it was when I got it. It's just been fun to get my hands on some of this stuff and just watch it grow, you know, but I'm trying to hold on to as much of it as possible, personally. Yeah, I did it for like, you know, quick buys and flips because I'll be honest, I wouldn't, I wouldn't fail to understand the industry enough to know what to buy and when to buy it. Whatever. 


I'm finding some cool stuff. I have friends that tell me about some cool stuff happening. I go on, I check it out, you know, works for me people that, you know, sometimes I've been lucky enough to get whitelisted other times, I got to get in that thing and met like everybody else, you know, but it's been fun and exciting. You know, especially like I see now B.o.B is now getting into the metaverse, that's going to be a drop coming soon. Really interesting man to watch out for; all these brands are finding their way into the metaverse right now. But yeah, my wallet is, it's okay, you know, it's not crazy, because I'm very reserved about, like, I have crypto that I already have. So I'm just kind of playing with house money, if that makes any sense. Like I don't want to look into you know, dumping a lot of my personal income into it, you know, if I make the right decisions in the right choices and make a couple of bucks cool. And if not, you know, they're not going to cut the lights off over here anytime. So, but, but it's fun, it's fun to have a lot of friends now like Everlast, a recording artist Everlast. I talked to him all the time. And he's been an art collector for almost 30 years now of all different mediums of art, whether it's sculptures or toys, or paintings or what have you. And like he's like, very, very engaged because he just loves art, and he loves to appreciate art. And he has many friends that are artists that are releasing NFT's, and then other things that he sees that are you know, maybe based off of hip hop characters or something culturally that he has an attachment to, and he was just copied something you know, it's relatively, you know, most of these things meant typically around .01 Ether, so it's only a couple of $100 that you really have to invest. Again, like I said, I'm not I'm not sitting around trying to spend crazy money on some of this stuff. But it's been fun man. It's really fun to have some of this stuff and you know, you could send your friend a link to your wallet and show him what you got.My good friend, Clyde Edwards from sneaker box. He was hitting me. He's like: Yo, I see you got to In-Betweener about one to check out my wallet, and I sent him my wallet. We just kind of compared different stuff that people got man. It's, it's a different thing that people can bond over too. You know, like, I have a lot of friends that are into sneakers. There's a lot of sneaker based NFT's Nikki Diamond sent me over some crypto downs that he's doing, you know. I'm saying and now other people that I didn't even know were hidden and she's like: Yeah, kind of crypto down to like worry. Yeah, it only cost me .01 Ether, so it was like nothing. It's fun, man. It's really fun and interesting to see how the space is connecting with people and how, how different people's entry points vary based on their cultural cues, you know.


Dan Runcie 10:06


Yeah! And I think your approach with it in terms of you're trying to buy these things and hold them, you're not trying to flip them. That's what separates the genuine aspect of being both someone that's producing art, but trying to consume it in the space versus the cash grabs. And I know that's something that both you and Spottie have been focused on making sure that the stuff you're putting out isn't just a cash grab. You're trying to put out something that people should want to buy and hold the same way you do with others. And I'm curious, are there certain things that you did to make sure that that was the image that was being presented, or the way that people would see it if they wanted to buy it? Because I know that with something like NFT's that can be a delicate thing to balance.


Bun B 10:53


I think I do a lot of this, you know, especially with particularly with this collaboration with Spidey. I kind of followed his lead, and I didn't want to put too much of myself on it. Because I was new in this space. I didn't want to overtalk myself. I didn't over one want to overstep my boundaries. And I didn't want to mess up Spidey's reputation. He's very well known, and very well respected in the space. So for the most times, I just kind of took his lead on a lot of this stuff. He would recommend certain things to me, I would approach things from a very typical traditional release standpoint and engagement standpoint. He was like: No, well. I was like, should we go on Instagram Live? And he was like: Well, no,these things tend to work better on Twitter spaces, you know. So little things like that helped me connect and figure out the space a lot quicker. But Spottie, I mean, he was already releasing music as NFT's prior to our collaboration. So the system was already set up, I just tried not to step on anybody's toes, get in anybody's way. But I was curious about a lot of things as far as intellectual property and ownership. And, you know, it's very interesting how some of these things work, depending on what you're releasing, whether it’s video or it’s music, you know, different rules apply. So it's been educational for me as well. And now that I have this information, I have a lot of other artists, typically from my generation who are curious about it, who don't have a Spottie that they can go to. So I can kind of give them a very base entry level instructions, I try to point them in the right direction. But it's not the easiest thing for people to navigate to discord if they've never really been on one before, and don't really know the terminology, and how the communication is happening in the space. So and that's for me, like, I was just talking to a friend last night like: Yo, how do you monitor these discords? Like, how do you know who's meeting what and where? And he was like: Man, it's a language, you just got to figure out how to talk it. And once you figure out how to talk it, it's, you'll see everything happening. So I'm still learning, it's a process for sure. Because this is the space that I naturally operate in. But I'm always up to learn something new.


Dan Runcie 13:02

Right. And because I think that's the perspective that obviously separates you from someone that would even want to try to do this as a cash grab to begin with. You already had a clear understanding, and then you have someone that's willing to ride it with you. And then you can help do other; help support other people with that, too. But yeah, it's, it's a lot I could imagine. And now that you've got in yourself up to speed with it, I wonder how this will shape how you choose to release your music in the future overall, with NFT's but then obviously, traditional album releases and things like that.


Bun B 13:37

Well, it's just a further extension, right? It just gives me a deeper way of connecting with my base and with people who appreciate my art. So typically, we would only sell music to people, we would only be able to communicate to people through social media. But now in the metaverse, right? Like I can sell tickets to a virtual concert. While they're at the virtual concert, they can buy virtual merchandise, right? There's so many different ways that we can connect with people, and it doesn't all have to be monetary, right? We can have very real conversations. It's, you know, these Twitter spaces have been very interesting in terms of learning how people view art that don't necessarily have an entry point to me as a musician, right? So in determining, like in the future, what kind of NFT's we want to be involved with and how we want to present it. It has to be true to me and my art and what I represent. So a lot of those things won't maybe necessarily connect,and they won't be something that I could sell for a bunch of money even if I wanted to. But the reality is, is that, I can't afford for this to be a cash grab, because I've got 30 years of reputation on the line, right? And I've always been upfront with people about what it is I represent and what I'm presenting. And so for me, this is just fun, right? It's very, it's fun. I'm trying to not try to sell stuff at an expensive price. I just want people to have a deeper experience in something that they're already enjoying, which is my music. So, we can create these remixes, right? Or like what I'm doing with Spidey where we're allowing people to remix the song, and present it, right? Like that's, that's fun; that's dope. But it's not something that would traditionally only play through a DJ or on a radio station, right? This thing will live and breathe on an entirely brand new platform. And it will inspire other people to approach these things from a different aspect or a different angle. And that's all I really want to do. As the OG, I'm typically the one that has to bite the bullet on this stuff; jump out there first, see if it's viable, see if it makes sense. And then, show other people: Hey, this is cool. Come on, you guys, it's safe to go this way. That's really all I'm trying to do. Now, you know, not necessarily for a lot of young people, because they get it: Younger people are more tech savvy than, say, my generation is, right? I want to let them know that this is a safe space, that they can operate it. But you can't jump in here and look at the money because these people can smell a poser a mile away. They can tell him to rug pool, they know what's going on. Because they were here first, you're the new guy, you know. So but it's, it's, um, it's encouraging, I will say that it is encouraging as an artist, you know. What new ways can I find to make this experience with the people that are appreciating my art and my music deeper? You know, how can it go further? How can it last longer? That's, that's a beautiful thing. 


Dan Runcie 16:19

Yeah, and that's a good point. You mentioned earlier, you, especially within your generation, have always been the experimenter, you've always been more willing to put yourself out there and then see what it's like and then put others up on game. How do you think that developed? Like, where did that, you know, dynamic come from for you?



Bun B 16:38

Well, you got to understand, I started rapping 30 plus years ago, when it wasn't even a viable job, right? People weren't rich from rap when I first got into it, but it was new. It was, it was amazing, right? The graffiti aspect of it, the breakdance aspect of it, watching the DJ, manipulating the records, and watching these guys create songs, impromptu like right in front of you. It was amazing. It was something I wanted to be a part of. And back then, you know, my mother was against it, a lot of people didn't think I would make it, it'd be successful. But I was like: Look, I'll give it some time, I'll give it a shot, I'll at least take a chance. You know, for me, I've always been open minded to take a chance on things and not everything works out. But typically when they do, they work out big. So you know, no risk, no reward. That's always been, you know, my personal motto. And you know, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody physically, as long as it doesn't compromise my family's financial and physical security. I'm open for you know, I'm willing to test it and from where I'm from, if I don't try it first, some people will never give it a chance, you know. So again, if you, you know, if you call yourself an OG, then you have to put yourself on the frontlines for all types of things, you know, not just music and hip hop or street related stuff. But even with, you know, technology and finance and all this type of stuff. I want people to get the best experience they can out of life, you know, and if I can live life and show people: Hey, this is okay to do this is safe, you know, encourage people to take a chance and jump off that cliff and see, you know, saying the biggest one when they land, I'm with it, you know, because it's worked out for me. And I know, there were a lot of things I was able to accomplish that people said I couldn't do. So I want to encourage as many people out there as possible to take chances as well.


Dan Runcie 18:21

Yeah, you mentioned there earlier with that, your mother in this and just you know her maybe not necessarily seeing it. And I think I heard you say this once that she didn't think that this was real until you were in Big Pimpin'. And that's when it, like, clicked for her. She was like: Oh, okay, like this is real now.


Bun B 18:38

Yeah, a little earlier than that. But right, right around the same time, like we were, we had the number one album and jet magazine. And that was like a big deal, right? Because that was for her generation, the only way to gauge that kind of stuff. They really weren't into Billboard magazine, they didn't, you know, charts and all of that type of stuff. So that's where people will look at it back, a jet magazine, you'd see the top singles and the top albums. And when I have the Top album and jet magazine, she kind of had to look to take notice. She was like you really do make music because there was no way for her to really gauge it. We didn't have a lot of music videos, we didn't have a lot of media exposure. You know, a lot of it was really word of mouth; our earliest use as recording artists, even though we were signed to a major label. So nothing in my life showed that I was like a recording artist, I didn't really have, you know, the money and the cars, you know, to really show that I was doing all this stuff. I couldn't point at this magazine and say: Look and see me. I couldn't point at this TV show and say: Hey, there goes my video. So it, you know, it was these small little moments that my mom could relate to because a lot of hip hop culture, my mom didn't have a frame of reference for, you know, me. That's a good thing too. Because, you know, this is a very different environment sometimes that we can operate in pimps. My mom was always deeply involved in our career. And I wasn't always crazy about that because there's a lot of rooms that I felt she shouldn't have been in because things can get very aggressive sometimes. But saying all that to be said, once I did go out and show my mom that I was capable of doing this, she was all in. She's one of my biggest supporters now, but again, sometimes you just got to go out there and throw caution to the wind. And that's always been this recurring theme in my life where, you know, I have no idea where the next road is going to leave me. But I have to be prepared to take that step regardless, you know.


Dan Runcie 20:25

Definitely. And I think with that, you mentioned Pimp C earlier. I feel like you and him together, just imagining what you all would have done and what USK’s, NFT approach and Web 3.0 approach would have been like, it would have been crazy.


Bun B 20:41

Well, Pimp was very big about interaction, right? He was really, you know, we would have concerts, you know, we'd be done on stage, say, you know, 1:30 and we probably wouldn't leave the club till 2:00 o'clock. Because taking pictures and signing autographs and just talking to people. Pimp was really big on wanting to, like, stick around after the show and, like, actually communicate with people. He was always curious as to what was on people's minds. And right now, he would have been all over; I believe, like, the metaverse and this idea of. Because I remember, he was, he introduced me to LaserDisc, right? Like, I had no idea what LaserDisc was. And I was the movie guy. That was a crazy thing. I was a big movie buff that watched all the films. And he was like: Man, I think you would like this, because you can watch the movie, and the director will talk to you like the commentaries and all that stuff. So he was, and he was a producer, he worked with a lot of, you know, recording equipment. So he had to be on the cutting edge of technology. Many people don't know that Ridin' Dirty is one of the first albums to actually be recorded in Pro Tools. So it's one of the first rap albums to be recorded fully into digital format, you know, and we were using a, a beta as a beta version. So we were testing the technology. And this is back in 1995, back in 1996, you know, so we were always trying to take advantage of advances in technology throughout our career. So it would be no surprise that this would be something that he would be trying to be a part of as much as possible. And I mean, he was, you know, he was already a very animated person. So a cartoon character with Pimp C based on it in these, you know, NFT world, you know, you could have put different hats, different color mink coats on him, he would have had a ball with it. I guarantee.


Dan Runcie 22:18

I could have, I could only imagine. I'm thinking about a clip of you all from international players Anthem Music Video, that would go crazy.


Bun B 22:29

Oh, yeah, definitely, you know, and again, you know, you never know what people gravitate to, right? That's why it's important to just throw it all up against the wall, I talked about this yesterday. I was just like: Man, you never know what it is people like about what you do. So you just give them everything you got, present yourself fully, you know, saying be open, but be as transparent as possible, and let the people decide what it is they love about you. And once you find that connection point, you can expand on that and grow that connection. I think NFT's is the perfect place for that, because it allows multiple interpretations of a theme that's already associated with you.


Dan Runcie 23:06

Right, right, for sure. I think with this, too. There's so much that's already known. And I think to a lot of people, you're definitely on the cutting edge with this. And I think naturally, you're probably: Like, okay, well, what is that thing going to be like three years from now, five years from now that everyone's gravitated towards? Do you have any ideas on what that could look like in music?


Bun B 23:27

Well, I think for one in music, I think a lot of,especially, we look at, you know, with, with social distancing, and a pandemic, and how people had to start doing like online concerts and versus and all of this different stuff. I do believe that. You know, if you remember last year, Travis Scott, and I think Justin Bieber both did virtual concerts, right? Travis did one on Fortnite. I think you'll see a lot more of that because it allows for more artistic interpretation for the performer, right? So you can do things in a metaverse concert that you maybe can't do in real life, right? Levels of production interaction, people communicating to you in real time, right? In ways that you probably couldn't do in the middle of a fully organized and fully produced concert.


I just think it allows people who appreciate what you do to have more access to you and what you do. And I think that for me, is where things are going to go. I think, I think there's going to be more. I think not only are we going to spend more time in the metaverse, I think we're going to be concerned about how we look in a metaverse, how we present ourselves in a metaverse as far as technology. And I think it'd be a lot closer to Ready Player One in the virtual sense, but not in the real world being this dystopian future kind of thing. I think we're okay for the next couple of years. I don't think mankind is going to, you know, turn into Mad Max that quick, right? I do think that people are going to spend, want to spend. I want to say that, everyone will want to spend more time. I think for me In the next three years, there's going to have to be some type of technological advance in the way we enter the metaverse because VR headsets for many people can be a very cumbersome thing to deal with for an extended period of time. And for me, that's the only thing with being in virtual reality for more than 20,30,40 minutes is the fact that the headset can get hot, especially if you're playing like Fruit Ninja, or boxing or working out, right? It gets hard to get sweaty. It's a lot. You know, I think as, I think as the technology starts to advance on that aspect, people will be more willing to get into it because it’s, it's kind of awkward, this big headset and these paddles and all of that. I think at some point, you know, if you look at who it is that is working with Oakley. Is it Facebook, or Google? That has the glasses, or is it not YouTube? Yeah, it's YouTube, right? We're with Oakley, where you can film things directly from, from the glasses. I think technology is going to lean more in that direction, I think we will be able to incorporate more of the metaverse on top of the real world so that you will be cognizant of where you are in the real world at the same time. So you're not tripping over the coffee table or something because people are going to want to incorporate this more into their everyday life. You won't be able to drive with it or maybe walk down the street with it. But I think you can move around and share spaces a little bit better, you know, but that's just me. I just want this to be a more pleasant experience and easily accessible experience. I think at some point, the metaverse will be as easily accessible as WiFi. If you can find a WiFi connection, you can jump right into the metaverse to connect with people in places. That's awesome. Starbucks is gonna look a lot different in three years. I could tell you.


Dan Runcie 26:47

Yeah, I think, I think that's it. Because when I think about the VR companies like Magic Leap, or Oculus, where I think their growth slowed a bit was exactly what you said. Having that headset on for a long period of time does create a barrier and friction on so many levels. And I think that's why for that moment, we saw faster movement and growth in AR as opposed to VR, right? So I think, the next motion of that is like what you're saying with glasses, it's like a hybrid of those. You still have the thing over you, but it's still layered on top of the real world, you can still interact with whatever's happening around you.


Bun B 27:25

The only problem is his peripheral, right? Like you have to figure out where the peripheral would stop with glasses, right? At some point, you still have to have simple coverage, right? In order to fully be constant in this space. But that doesn't, that's not always going to work. So I think, as long as someone can like with the click of a button, like, tablets have a real space in the back of their metaverse like the in and out, right? The accessibility, I think, to and back and forth, that's going to be the thing that I'm sure there's somewhere in, in the r&d departments trying to figure out right now. Definitely, I think this would be amazing, like on flights, like, just think if you have, like, a long international flight, right? You know, you get tired of watching movies, and listening to music and food. You can jump on, you know, the same phone, if there's like a WiFi experience, you can jump into the metaverse right there, you know, and interact with other people on a plane, right? Without, you know, without having to get up and go there. You can find out somebody in 34C is interested in the same things as you, you know, it could get sketchy too. You know, that could get sketchy too. I've been on planes before where people were randomly air dropping pictures to people that maybe they didn't want airdropped to them. Like that. But the world is full of wonder. I'm excited about the future , always have been, always will. 


Dan Runcie 28:36

Yeah. And I also think we're still in the early days of this too. I mean, it's very real that I know that. I know that Facebook changed its name to Meta, and they may seem like the leader, but these companies, especially the new ones, they're growing fast. Every new social platform grows faster than the one before that. And like we're saying five years from now, just think about, like, how quick Tick Tock blew up, or how quick Clubhouse blew up in that, you know, few months, right?


Bun B 29:01

And prevalent, not just that it grew up. It's prevalent, and it's accepted, you know, across the board, you know, different cultures, languages, gender identity, everybody's getting it the same way. I talk about this all the time, every now and then technology comes to people or an idea, or some level of artists presented and everyone receives it generally the same way, right? And I think that the metaverse is going to get to a point where it can present itself to the average consumer who isn't tech savvy, who doesn't have cryptocurrency, who doesn't have a metamask wallet with, with NFT's and tokens in it. But will still want to interact and engage. You know, I saw with the Nintendo Wii, I think the Nintendo Wii doesn't get enough credit for being a precursor to this. You know, that was something that everybody wanted to see what their face would look like, what their avatar would look like on the game and we could bowl and play tennis and all of that, right? I think that's going to come back around. I think we're going to see a happy medium between what we know VR to be, and what we want VR to be very soon. I think there's too many companies investing in a technology. There's too many upstarts. And there's too many people whose minds are not focused on this. It's happening. It's not about a matter of if, it's when it's happening right now. And everybody's getting on board, all these big corporations that you see creating NFT's and trying to sell up cheese. I remember when I saw the massive Thanksgiving parade floats were being sold as NFT's. I'm like, okay, and like, this is massive, right? Right. You know, saying like, get on board, like everybody can get on board. And you can hold out if you want, I held out on Twitter, I held out on Instagram and social media. And I'm pretty sure it cost me It cost me money. At some point. It cost me connectivity at some point. And you know, it cost me relationships because I wasn't there early, right? A lot of people that got there early, were able to take full advantage of it. And you know, a lot of us are still playing catch up with this kind of stuff. So as far as the, you know, Web 3.0 in the metaverse, I want to be, if not ahead of the game, at least I have my finger right on the side and on the cusp of what's to come. 


Dan Runcie 31:11

That Nintendo Wii example is a really good one for a few reasons. Because I think it also signaled what people think is the real technology advancement, if that makes sense. Because up until that point, everything was about graphics. How can the Xbox One be upgraded graphics and the Xbox 360? Or a ps4? Whatever it is.


Bun B 31:31

How close to reality can it look, right?



Dan Runcie 31:34

Right, and their whole thing was like: Okay, maybe if it's less about that, but more about like: Okay, what is the actual experience that you can create with other people and making people do things? And that's why, we blew up when it did when it did, you know, let's take a quick break to hear a word from this week's sponsor.


Bun B 31:52

Yeah, so what's the goal, right? What was the goal of the Nintendo Wii for people to enjoy it together, right? So they focused on that, instead of how pretty the picture was going to look? And how sharp the animation was going to look and how fluid everything was going to be? No, it just, you know, the avatars just like the Apple avatars, right? They're fun, neat, animated character caricature versions of who we are, right? It's like spending the day at the pier or something, you know, and it allows the kids to play a game with the parents to play a game with the grandparents, you know. Nintendo Wii changed Thanksgiving weekend and changed Christmas and New Year's, right? Because now the whole family can gather around the television. And instead of watching a movie, we can all do Nintendo Wii bowling. I feel like technology is going to get more and more into that. The metaverse lends itself to that, you know, I'm saying. Especially if, say, you can get on your iPad, you can get on, on your cell phones, the kid can't get on on his Nintendo, right? I can get on, on my phone. And we can all be interacting, playing games against each other. You know, what was it there was, there were virtual dominoes, I remember that became a big thing during the pandemic, because people in different houses could play dominoes against each other. People who would normally come together and commune and play dominoes in person could play it virtually. Now imagine that there's an avatar, you know, I'm saying there's benefits, the winner could get this, we could all put .01 Ether or something. I don't want to encourage gambling, but it's just different ways for us to have fun together. You know, and I think, I think the metaverse is going to be perfect for that. Because if everybody just has to put something on, then we're all there. Now, you know, I love the idea of, of virtual art galleries, where you can have the stuff that's in your wallet, and it's on the wall, you can display it and present it to other people. You know, you can go by someone's gallery and look at their art, they can come and look at yours. We'll be having listening parties, people can come and commune, play albums and preview music and videos. But the world is wide open, and it's just about how open you are to it.


Dan Runcie 33:54

That's exciting. I'm excited for that. I know you're going to be up on all of that. And I mean, I can't wait. I feel like of course with some of these things. You always feel it out to see, okay, what is, you know, the worthwhile thing to put the investment behind. But there's always going to be things and I think, I think it's going to be bright ahead so I can't wait for that. 


Switching gears a bit though, I want to talk a bit more about hip hop and I want to talk about Houston specifically. Because obviously you're a legend in this game, you know, play in Port Arthur, Texas on the map. And it's been great. You mentioned Travis Scott earlier. It's been great to see what he's done. It's been great to see what Megan Stallion has done as well. And I feel like, you know, you've mentioned that especially in the 90s, Houston necessarily wasn't getting you know, all the love that it definitely deserved. And now we are starting to see a few more Houston artists get some of that mainstream awareness that maybe the earlier generation didn't get. But I'm curious, where you think things are right now. Do you feel like Houston is finally getting its fair share? Do you think they're still selling room there for the region?


Bun B 35:02

Well, I think the only thing that has really held us back here has always been media, the media accessibility, right? Not being in New York and not being in Los Angeles, which are media capitals of the world, not just of the US, right? There is all the accessibility to magazines, to TV shows, right? To entertainment conglomerates, in general, all the access is there. We've always been operating on the outside. Well, now with social media, it kind of levels the playing field. And if we're all operating on a level playing field, then yes, we can compete with anybody, we can compete with any and everybody on any level. So that's why I think you start to see more not just prominence of, of Houston artists, but Houston artists on a major level, right? Because everybody can be a part of the experience. At the same time, people now have been educated to Houston's street scene, Houston's music scene, everybody knows what the car the candy painted cars are, you know, DJ Screw, they know all of that everybody has the cultural cues to it. And since we're all operating on that same,even playing, let's just see who's got the best talent and who presents themselves in the best way. And you'd be hard pressed to find somebody to present that presents themselves live on stage in person better than someone like a Travis Scott, or a Megan Thee Stallion. Obviously, Travis has, you know, has a lot that he's going through right now. But I don't think anyone would ever say that Travis wasn't one of the best performances out there, right? So if we're given the same opportunities in the same platforms that everyone else has to present ourselves to the masses. Houston has just a chance, if not even more of a chance of being successful on a grand scale than everyone else, because we had to learn how to operate without mass media outlets, you know what I'm saying. So if we can build up a following based on that. Well, once we get access to the media outlets, it was game over at that point, right? So yeah, I look at a lot of the talent, you know, people like Maxo Kream on the edge, you know, people like Fat Tony, there's a lot of great up and coming talent coming out of Houston Sauce Walka and Peso Peso, Trill Sammy, Dice SoHo, a lot of really good talent coming out of the city. And they're all finding their fan bases through social media. So they're the people that they are connecting with while it may not be a million people at one time. That 150,000-250,000 group that they're connecting with, they're building strong connections, they're building connections that will last for years to come. And it's important to do that. I tell artists all the time, you don't need a million fans to make a million dollars. You know, that's a big misconception that you need to sell a million things to someone to make a million dollars to a million people. No, it doesn't have to be at all. If you’re consistent, 10,000 people spending money with you; 10,000 people spending 50 bucks with you, on a monthly basis will make you a millionaire in a year. So don't be greedy. Just be consistent and patient.


Dan Runcie 37:59

Definitely. And I think to that, obviously, the internet helps democratize so much of this. But to your point, I think you're still highlighting this, that medium still does make a difference for a lot of these artists, and especially in the hubs that they're in. So I feel like it's getting closer to that point where things are equalized. But unfortunately, there still is some benefit that the artist that is close to the New York or close to the LA would have. But I'm curious, especially as we're thinking about whether it's the metaverse or just future development in different areas. If that piece will continue to change, if the media, especially the hip hop entertainment media, will start to become even more democratized at that, from that perspective.


Bun B 38:44

I think we have an advantage because there's always been this independent spirit, right? That if the powers that be won't allow us to use their platforms that will create our own, right? And it's that self sufficient mindset, right? Self sustaining mindset that would lend itself to this, right? It would lend itself to the point of content creation, right? We don't sit around and wait to find out who can distribute our content the best, who can we partner with. No, we're gonna figure out a way to create this content independently. And because of that, we are now the sole owners of the intellectual property, all of that term and all of that knowledge and application lends itself to the metaverse, right? Because you have your own small group of people, right? That has been supporting you outside of the major media system. So now you started discord with those people. And now all those people are communicating with each other in real time, constantly and consistently. You can find out exactly what it is that they all have in common in terms of their connection with you. And now, you can feed that beast properly. You can give it a better diet, because it's more refined. You know exactly what it is that they're coming for. It's for sustenance, right? So you can take all of the filler out of the presentation and just give them exactly what it is that they need. You can't ask for a better access from an artist perspective, right? This is exactly what you would want. People used to pay 10s of 1000s of dollars for people to have special interest groups come in and tell them what people are thinking. Now you can have a place where all of the people that support you like you,and listen to you and appreciate you coming together and talk about what it is they like, and maybe what it is they don't like. So you can have a more fine tuned perception of what it is that people are supporting you for. We are in a perfect position, being from Houston, being self-sustained, being creators, content creators, and owners, right? To understand how to take full advantage of what the metaverse or Web 3.0 has to offer. That's why, me personally, I want to make sure that I'm out here leading the charge, not just for the next generation, but for prior generations, there's a place in space here for everybody. You know what I’m saying, and you don't need to wait until people invite you. It's wide open right now what make yourself at home.


Dan Runcie 41:01

Love that. Love that. That's what it's about making the opportunities. No, that's amazing. That's amazing. A couple of questions here before we, before we let you go. I want to chat with you about the restaurant business because I know that's something that you've been deep in. I know you actually teamed up with my guy premium Pete as well on a few things in this space. And I know that you recently started Trill Burgers. It would be great to hear how that's been going and what your vision is and outlook is for that.


Bun B 41:28

Well, anybody that knows me can look at me, you can tell that I like food, right? When I'm going to kid around with that I'm a big boy. And I like food. But as I've gotten older, I've gotten to appreciate the process more of cooking, but then also how restaurants work. I've made good relationships with a lot of people here in the restaurant and culinary world. And I've just been on the outside for so long. Like I'd love to have an entry point into this business, right? I'm not necessarily a chef, by trade or nature, my wife and I do a lot of cooking. We used to do a lot of cooking demos, and why not. But it was just about finding the right place, you know, the right place to enter and make it make sense. Good friends of mine owned a restaurant here in town, Sticky's Chicken, Patty and Vince, brother and sister, you know, great business. And they were bought out by a Restaurant Group who wanted to partner with me on a concept as well. So between myself and team Sticky's Chicken, the restaurant group that was approaching me, and a good friend of mine, Nick Schofield, who kind of helped bring everything together. They presented this burger concept, I had my own ideas of what it should be. We agreed on the inception. And the idea and the concept, presented it to the public. And it's been going amazing ever since, you know, we've been able to present it at a lot of great places like ComplexCon, AstroWorld, and we're set to do it at Coachella, pretty soon. So there's just a lot of great opportunities that are coming from that. Once people saw that I wanted to be more active in the food space, different people started to reach out. So I'm currently working with Paul Qui, an award winning chef from Texas, on a soul food restaurant concept with my wife, Queen Sophie. So that's going to be the next thing and looking at a lot of different local brands here that are doing amazing things with food, but can use maybe a little bit more energy and maybe a little bit more awareness to take them to the next level. 

So I'm looking to partner with people as well, not just building an original concept, but seeing concepts that are really well thought out, really well fleshed out, have amazing food and again, could just use maybe a little energy or a little like: Hey, come over here and try this. So you know, I think in the next three to five years, man, I think there's gonna be a lot of really, really good opportunities for me in that space. We're already talking about how that translates into the metaverse and, and, and the idea of, you know, things happening in the real world as well as in a virtual world. So there's a lot of great ideas that we have on the table. I don't want to give everything away. But I think by the time we get to maybe NFT Denver, or NFT LA, will be presenting some of these new ideas from half of myself and the guys that I'm in business with. So, you know, the food industry is exciting for me to be a part of. But it's not just about brick and mortars. And it's not just about real world application. There's also room for this to extend into the metaverse as well. And we're all excited about that.


Dan Runcie 44:19

I was just gonna say when you started talking about this, I'm already seeing a headline soon enough. Trill Burger has bought real estate in the metaverse to open up shop.


Bun B 44:29

Hey, look, man, look, anything is possible nowadays. Like I said, this space is wide open. You know, there's a lot of things that my partners and I think make sense for us as a new brand. Personally, for my brand. They're encouraged to try it. I'm encouraged to support him in trying it. Again, it's not typical. It's not traditional, but I think maybe that's a good thing. You know, I think there's a lot of people looking for things that are outside of the box and outside of the norm, and I think we have some great progressive ideas that we could present to people that fall right in line with everything that everybody wants to be a part of the metaverse for.


Dan Runcie 45:03

Can't wait. I feel like you know, I can already see the headline comments. So I'm excited to see it for sure. But no, for now, this would be the last question before we let you go. You were on the I'm an athlete podcast a couple pretty recently, us with Brandon Marshall and Perkins, a bunch of them. And you were talking about how Tom Brady is the Jay-Z of the NFL. And then you also mentioned that Aaron Rodgers is more like Naz. So who is that Bun B in the NFL? Who is Bun B?


Bun B 45:33

Wow, no. When we had that conversation, I was asked that, and I didn't have a good answer. At the time. I haven’t thought about it. I've always been a fan of Frank Gore, the running back. Frank Gore is, I think, he's 40 right now, still out there. One of the strongest, toughest guys in the game going up against the young bucks, you know, always does well enough, right? Like, he's, he's not going to be the top running back, you know, maybe not even in the top 20. But he always does the job. He comes, he gets the job done. And he's a real leader in the locker room because he's a veteran. And that's why I want to be somebody that, look, if I show up, I'm going to do what I said, I'm going to do.You know what I'm saying. And I'm going to try to encourage other people and lead them in the right way because I've been playing this game, maybe longer than you guys are, and I can probably help you work smarter instead of working hard, you know. So I would say probably like a Frank Gore. But that's just me because I really like his style of play.


Dan Runcie 46:29

That's a good answer. And I think he's actually up there and yardage. He might be in the top five for the NFL, for running back yards up there, right?


Bun B 46:37

Oh, Brandon, back on. I think he's in the top 10. Yeah. 10. Yes. So he slowly and quietly right, very quietly, very quietly, put those numbers.


Dan Runcie 46:45

Yeah, if people want to think that, but I couldn't see you getting in the ring with Deron Williams, though. I couldn’t have seen that happen.


Bun B 46:51

No, no, no, no, I'm not gonna play that. I'm talking about on the field, I would make a better decision off the field than that. I'm not playing those kinds of games. You got to know your weight class.


Dan Runcie 47:04

No, for sure. It's funny when I was thinking about this for you, the Dave that came to mind for me was Randall Cunningham. Wow. And here's why. Okay, because I think about someone like him and originator who, when he was, especially when he was doing his thing in Philly. I feel like that was just when people were starting to see, you know, the quarterback that could run in a quarterback that can throw and do his thing. And in many ways, that person paved the way for the Mahomes up today. And all of these guys that can do these things when the rules have changed a little bit. You know, there's a whole bunch of more past coverage, a little bit kinder to quarterbacks in a way where someone like Rambo Cunningham could have had, you know. You know, who knows what Randall Cunningham could do in this era, but it wasn't for Randall Cunningham doing what he did. He paved the way to make it possible for the young cats today.


Bun B 47:55

I like the correlation. I like that. I'm not mad at that. I'm not mad at that.


Dan Runcie 48:00

Now I hear that. 


Bun B 48:01

Oh, come in. I'm with it.I'm with it.


Dan Runcie 48:03

Nice. Nice.


Bun B 48:05

It's good. You didn't compare me to scrub?


Dan Runcie 48:08

For sure. For sure. Well, bond. This is fun. Man. I appreciate you for coming on. This was I mean, I think people are gonna get a lot out of this combo, for sure. And I know we talked in the beginning about everything you've got coming up. But what are some things coming up soon in the next couple months that you want to plug or let the trapital audience know about?


Bun B 48:26

Oh, on March 11th. March 11th is going to be a big day for me. I'm going to be performing in Houston at the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo. For people that aren't from Houston, this is the 98 years. So it's a big part of Houston culture and tradition. And I'm the first black man from Houston to headline this event. So we're doing a big event there. I'm bringing out a lot of guys like Slim Thug, Paul Wall, Mike Jones and bringing out a lot of local guys because, you know, we've never been able to be a part of this on this level. And so I want to share this moment with other people who grew up in the city like me, and understand what it means to be able to be a black man from the city on that stage. You know, on that same day, I'm releasing a new album called MoTrill. It's a collaboration with a producer from Houston named Corey Moe, one of Pimp C's production protegees, and so we have a collaborative album together. The first single is out right now it's called Hesitate is with me, Tobe Nwigwe, Talib Kweli and David Banner. It's a more mature album, you know, like I'm acting my age, you know, I'm age appropriate. And I want to make music that people from my generation can listen to and enjoy and be lit on their own level. Because there's a lot of things in modern music that people from my generation just can't relate to. You know what I’m saying. I'll maybe appreciate it on the level that it should be appreciated. So I want to make sure that I'm still making current new music for people who've been along with me on this 30 year journey, you know what I’m saying. I'm not gonna leave him here like this. We don't keep going until we can't. No, I love that. Right.


So March 11th Man, to be looking for a lot for me that day and a couple of different surprises, too. I got a lot of things coming up in this metaverse space, you know, a couple of collaborations now that I have a clear idea of what people would want for me. That was really a lot of what I was trying to do, was to figure out how would people want an NFT for me? What would you know, what, what would you want to see from me? What would make sense for me, right? And so I think we've got a really good idea of how to present ourselves in a space, make it easy, you know, make it not just a, you know, an NFT but also something that has something tangible physically attached to it, you know, make it a deeper experience for people. And we got some really good ideas. I'm partnering with a good friend of mine, and I think we're gonna have something present to people. Hopefully by March that'll be really fun and encouraging, we'll extend throughout the year. Like it's we've got some really cool stuff attached. So just keep your eyes open.


Keep following him on social media on Instagram @BunB on Twitter @BunBTrillOG. And on Facebook @RealBunBofUGK and stay posted we got to be: Oh, and we got the discord coming soon. So stay tuned to my Twitter. We will probably be putting all the discord information out through the Twitter page. So there's I noticed that a lot of energy from metaverse and, and Web 3.0 takes place on Twitter. So we're moving all that energy there so we can go straight to the people that are already engaged. But we're excited for what the year has to be, you know, have this store and years to come.


Dan Runcie 48:53

We'll keep an eye out for that man excited for you can't wait, Bun thanks again, man.


Bun B 51:35

Thanks, Dan.


Dan Runcie 51:40

If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link,texted to a friend, posted in your group chat, posted in your Slack groups wherever you and your people talk to spread the word. That's how trapnell continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it if you use Apple podcast, go ahead rate the podcast, give it a high rating and Weaver review. Tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

]]> 3137 no How Tuma Basa is Bringing Black Music to the World with YouTube https://trapital.co/2022/02/11/how-tuma-basa-is-bringing-black-and-african-music-to-the-world-with-youtube/ Since Tuma Basa broke into the music industry in the late ‘90s, he’s seen first-hand the complete transformation of the business. But amid the changes, Tuma has been a consistent force in curating hip-hop music and connecting it with brand-new audiences far and wide. That’s on full display in his current role as the Director of Black Music & Culture at YouTube. It’s a unique title for an even more unique individual. Tuma cut his teeth in music on the programming side, working for BET and MTV for over 10 years. Next, he was a guiding force in the launch of P Diddy’s REVOLT TV. But once the industry embraced streaming, Tuma left traditional TV and joined the new frontier with Spotify. There, he was the curator behind the RapCaviar playlist — which amassed over nine million followers at the time, making it a top-5 Spotify playlist globally. Tuma joined YouTube in 2018. The platform may not get the credit that a service like Spotify does, but it's just as influential in bridging artists directly with listeners. True to form, Tuma is leveraging YouTube’s worldwide reach and connecting it with not only emerging artists (think NBA YoungBoy) but on-the-rise genres too (AfroBeats, Dancehall).  I really enjoyed this interview with Tuma, who is on the frontlines of the streaming era. Here are all the topics we covered on the show: Episode Highlights [02:44] Being on the front lines with the hip hop world [04:55] Tuma’s experience working at MTV when Dancehall was becoming part of mainstream music [06:01] The disconnection in terms of expectations: paid shows vs promo [07:50] Tuma talks about African artists and folk traditional music [09:28] The reasons why Tuma found YouTube attractive [11:14] Breaking barriers and giving more exposure to artists through streaming [12:45] What does success look like for Tuma? [15:23] Why you should spend time and have more focus on YouTube [18:30] NBA YoungBoy: One of the biggest stars on YouTube [26:36] The role of technology in the music industry [28:26] The CD and DVD era [31:15] Tuma’s outlook about generation transfer, and the concept of an album  [37:51] Trends where music is heading, and what people think about emerging technology [41:45] What Tuma wants the “Trapital” audience to know about Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Tuma Basa, @tumabasa Trapital is home to the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Thu, 10 Feb 2022 18:00:00 -0000 How Tuma Basa is Bringing Black Music to the World with YouTube full 112 Dan Runcie Since Tuma Basa broke into the music industry in the late ‘90s, he’s seen first-hand the complete transformation of the business. But amid the changes, Tuma has been a consistent force in curating hip-hop music and connecting it with brand-new audiences far and wide. That’s on full display in his current role as the Director of Black Music & Culture at YouTube. It’s a unique title for an even more unique individual. Tuma cut his teeth in music on the programming side, working for BET and MTV for over 10 years. Next, he was a guiding force in the launch of P Diddy’s REVOLT TV. But once the industry embraced streaming, Tuma left traditional TV and joined the new frontier with Spotify. There, he was the curator behind the RapCaviar playlist — which amassed over nine million followers at the time, making it a top-5 Spotify playlist globally. Tuma joined YouTube in 2018. The platform may not get the credit that a service like Spotify does, but it's just as influential in bridging artists directly with listeners. True to form, Tuma is leveraging YouTube’s worldwide reach and connecting it with not only emerging artists (think NBA YoungBoy) but on-the-rise genres too (AfroBeats, Dancehall).  I really enjoyed this interview with Tuma, who is on the frontlines of the streaming era. Here are all the topics we covered on the show: Episode Highlights [02:44] Being on the front lines with the hip hop world [04:55] Tuma’s experience working at MTV when Dancehall was becoming part of mainstream music [06:01] The disconnection in terms of expectations: paid shows vs promo [07:50] Tuma talks about African artists and folk traditional music [09:28] The reasons why Tuma found YouTube attractive [11:14] Breaking barriers and giving more exposure to artists through streaming [12:45] What does success look like for Tuma? [15:23] Why you should spend time and have more focus on YouTube [18:30] NBA YoungBoy: One of the biggest stars on YouTube [26:36] The role of technology in the music industry [28:26] The CD and DVD era [31:15] Tuma’s outlook about generation transfer, and the concept of an album  [37:51] Trends where music is heading, and what people think about emerging technology [41:45] What Tuma wants the “Trapital” audience to know about Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Tuma Basa, @tumabasa Trapital is home to the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Since Tuma Basa broke into the music industry in the late ‘90s, he’s seen first-hand the complete transformation of the business. But amid the changes, Tuma has been a consistent force in curating hip-hop music and connecting it with brand-new audiences far and wide. That’s on full display in his current role as the Director of Black Music & Culture at YouTube.

It’s a unique title for an even more unique individual. Tuma cut his teeth in music on the programming side, working for BET and MTV for over 10 years. Next, he was a guiding force in the launch of P Diddy’s REVOLT TV. But once the industry embraced streaming, Tuma left traditional TV and joined the new frontier with Spotify. There, he was the curator behind the RapCaviar playlist — which amassed over nine million followers at the time, making it a top-5 Spotify playlist globally.

Tuma joined YouTube in 2018. The platform may not get the credit that a service like Spotify does, but it's just as influential in bridging artists directly with listeners. True to form, Tuma is leveraging YouTube’s worldwide reach and connecting it with not only emerging artists (think NBA YoungBoy) but on-the-rise genres too (AfroBeats, Dancehall). 

I really enjoyed this interview with Tuma, who is on the frontlines of the streaming era. Here are all the topics we covered on the show:


Episode Highlights

[02:44] Being on the front lines with the hip hop world

[04:55] Tuma’s experience working at MTV when Dancehall was becoming part of mainstream music

[06:01] The disconnection in terms of expectations: paid shows vs promo

[07:50] Tuma talks about African artists and folk traditional music

[09:28] The reasons why Tuma found YouTube attractive

[11:14] Breaking barriers and giving more exposure to artists through streaming

[12:45] What does success look like for Tuma?

[15:23] Why you should spend time and have more focus on YouTube

[18:30] NBA YoungBoy: One of the biggest stars on YouTube

[26:36] The role of technology in the music industry

[28:26] The CD and DVD era

[31:15] Tuma’s outlook about generation transfer, and the concept of an album 

[37:51] Trends where music is heading, and what people think about emerging technology

[41:45] What Tuma wants the “Trapital” audience to know about


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Tuma Basa, @tumabasa


Trapital is home to the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

]]> 2676 no How Junae Brown Became the ‘Beyoncé of Marketing’ https://www.trapital.com/podcast Junae Brown is a marketing expert and the founder and CEO of Browned 2 Perfection agency. She started her career in music and had worked for several record labels like Sodi Layla's, Columbia, and RCA. She gained the skills and expertise while working for these companies and set herself to start looking at the opportunities to have more control over all the exciting projects she wants, which is primarily why she started her agency. In today's episode, June shares her experiences way back in the music industry and how it paved the way for her to create her agency. She talks about the secret behind her signature, "Beyonce of marketing," that stood out in the marketing realm. She also shares her insights on building brands and creating a scalable business in the music industry. We had an insightful talk about her and her business ethics, which makes her distinct, making people want to work with her.  Episode Highlights [01:36] Looking back at Junae’s previous roles in the music industry  [06:06] Junae’s take on the royalty rate of streaming  [09:16] Her thoughts on the previous and emerging labels in the music industry [12:57] Using the internet to maximize what artists are selling and get better compensation [15:40] What is it that attracts people to work with her agency [21:47] Bridging the gap between building a following and building a brand [24:11] What does “Beyonce of marketing” mean [32:57] Junae’s business ethics and commitment to legacy and impact [33:53] Who is her dream client?  [39:34] Junae’s talk with Yoh Phillips on music’s record label misconceptions [44:30] Junae’s insights on having marketing strategies to make a music brand marketable [47:56] Her closing advice on making great business with music Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Junae Brown https://www.instagram.com/junaebrown/ https://www.instagram.com/B2PAgency/  Trapital is home to the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Fri, 04 Feb 2022 09:00:00 -0000 How Junae Brown Became the ‘Beyoncé of Marketing’ full 96 Dan Runcie Junae Brown is a marketing expert and the founder and CEO of Browned 2 Perfection agency. She started her career in music and had worked for several record labels like Sodi Layla's, Columbia, and RCA. She gained the skills and expertise while working for these companies and set herself to start looking at the opportunities to have more control over all the exciting projects she wants, which is primarily why she started her agency. In today's episode, June shares her experiences way back in the music industry and how it paved the way for her to create her agency. She talks about the secret behind her signature, "Beyonce of marketing," that stood out in the marketing realm. She also shares her insights on building brands and creating a scalable business in the music industry. We had an insightful talk about her and her business ethics, which makes her distinct, making people want to work with her.  Episode Highlights [01:36] Looking back at Junae’s previous roles in the music industry  [06:06] Junae’s take on the royalty rate of streaming  [09:16] Her thoughts on the previous and emerging labels in the music industry [12:57] Using the internet to maximize what artists are selling and get better compensation [15:40] What is it that attracts people to work with her agency [21:47] Bridging the gap between building a following and building a brand [24:11] What does “Beyonce of marketing” mean [32:57] Junae’s business ethics and commitment to legacy and impact [33:53] Who is her dream client?  [39:34] Junae’s talk with Yoh Phillips on music’s record label misconceptions [44:30] Junae’s insights on having marketing strategies to make a music brand marketable [47:56] Her closing advice on making great business with music Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Junae Brown https://www.instagram.com/junaebrown/ https://www.instagram.com/B2PAgency/  Trapital is home to the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Junae Brown is a marketing expert and the founder and CEO of Browned 2 Perfection agency. She started her career in music and had worked for several record labels like Sodi Layla's, Columbia, and RCA. She gained the skills and expertise while working for these companies and set herself to start looking at the opportunities to have more control over all the exciting projects she wants, which is primarily why she started her agency.


In today's episode, June shares her experiences way back in the music industry and how it paved the way for her to create her agency. She talks about the secret behind her signature, "Beyonce of marketing," that stood out in the marketing realm. She also shares her insights on building brands and creating a scalable business in the music industry. We had an insightful talk about her and her business ethics, which makes her distinct, making people want to work with her. 


Episode Highlights


[01:36] Looking back at Junae’s previous roles in the music industry 

[06:06] Junae’s take on the royalty rate of streaming 

[09:16] Her thoughts on the previous and emerging labels in the music industry

[12:57] Using the internet to maximize what artists are selling and get better compensation

[15:40] What is it that attracts people to work with her agency

[21:47] Bridging the gap between building a following and building a brand

[24:11] What does “Beyonce of marketing” mean

[32:57] Junae’s business ethics and commitment to legacy and impact

[33:53] Who is her dream client? 

[39:34] Junae’s talk with Yoh Phillips on music’s record label misconceptions

[44:30] Junae’s insights on having marketing strategies to make a music brand marketable

[47:56] Her closing advice on making great business with music


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Junae Brown https://www.instagram.com/junaebrown/ https://www.instagram.com/B2PAgency/ 


Trapital is home to the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.

]]> 3260 no BONUS: The New Creator Manifesto https://www.trapital.com/podcast In today’s episode, our host, Dan Runcie, is joined by Gina Bianchini, co-founder, and CEO of Mighty Networks, which provides creators what they need to build their community-run courses and hosts live stream conversations, and Zoe Scaman, a brand strategist, owner of Bodacious, a strategy studio in London. The three talks about the creative economy survey Gina and Zoe conducted to identify some common struggles that creators are faced with right now. Specifically, they discussed the burnout and frustration creators are going through to keep up with the treadmill of creating content day by day and keeping up with social media algorithms and the solutions the survey surfaced to help creators get out the other side to try to find new models. They also share what trends creators should watch out for and what opportunities look like for the rest of 2022. Tune in to get valuable insights on the survey and what’s behind the New Creator Manifesto Gina and Zoe designed to help creators build a sustainable community with less burnout and more freedom and equity. Episode Highlights [01:11] Introducing Zoe and Gina [04:02] Overview of the creator economy survey [06:43] An unexpected stats on the creator economy report [10:45] What frustrates creators in keeping up with their social media game [14:13] Opinions on the issue of ownership in social media platforms [17:55] How to grow without spending much time building a massive audience [21:03] The importance of shifting the focus on cultivating community value [25:58] Learning the behavior of a brand’s customer set helps identify its equity layer [28:55] The fundamentals of community design to create a thriving and sustainable community [33:25] What actually came out from the creator economy research as a solution to challenges the majority of creators face [36:50] Zoe and Gina’s framework in building community [40:06] Being a community leader or creator is like being a host at a party [46:05] Opinions on social media platform subscriptions, subscription burnout, and how to shift to a sustainable model [51:06] Does the community way of thinking bring brand purpose alive? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Gina Bianchini  Zoe Scaman  Trapital is home to the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Tue, 01 Feb 2022 09:00:00 -0000 BONUS: The New Creator Manifesto full 95 Dan Runcie In today’s episode, our host, Dan Runcie, is joined by Gina Bianchini, co-founder, and CEO of Mighty Networks, which provides creators what they need to build their community-run courses and hosts live stream conversations, and Zoe Scaman, a brand strategist, owner of Bodacious, a strategy studio in London. The three talks about the creative economy survey Gina and Zoe conducted to identify some common struggles that creators are faced with right now. Specifically, they discussed the burnout and frustration creators are going through to keep up with the treadmill of creating content day by day and keeping up with social media algorithms and the solutions the survey surfaced to help creators get out the other side to try to find new models. They also share what trends creators should watch out for and what opportunities look like for the rest of 2022. Tune in to get valuable insights on the survey and what’s behind the New Creator Manifesto Gina and Zoe designed to help creators build a sustainable community with less burnout and more freedom and equity. Episode Highlights [01:11] Introducing Zoe and Gina [04:02] Overview of the creator economy survey [06:43] An unexpected stats on the creator economy report [10:45] What frustrates creators in keeping up with their social media game [14:13] Opinions on the issue of ownership in social media platforms [17:55] How to grow without spending much time building a massive audience [21:03] The importance of shifting the focus on cultivating community value [25:58] Learning the behavior of a brand’s customer set helps identify its equity layer [28:55] The fundamentals of community design to create a thriving and sustainable community [33:25] What actually came out from the creator economy research as a solution to challenges the majority of creators face [36:50] Zoe and Gina’s framework in building community [40:06] Being a community leader or creator is like being a host at a party [46:05] Opinions on social media platform subscriptions, subscription burnout, and how to shift to a sustainable model [51:06] Does the community way of thinking bring brand purpose alive? Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guests: Gina Bianchini  Zoe Scaman  Trapital is home to the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  In today’s episode, our host, Dan Runcie, is joined by Gina Bianchini, co-founder, and CEO of Mighty Networks, which provides creators what they need to build their community-run courses and hosts live stream conversations, and Zoe Scaman, a brand strategist, owner of Bodacious, a strategy studio in London.


The three talks about the creative economy survey Gina and Zoe conducted to identify some common struggles that creators are faced with right now. Specifically, they discussed the burnout and frustration creators are going through to keep up with the treadmill of creating content day by day and keeping up with social media algorithms and the solutions the survey surfaced to help creators get out the other side to try to find new models. They also share what trends creators should watch out for and what opportunities look like for the rest of 2022.


Tune in to get valuable insights on the survey and what’s behind the New Creator Manifesto Gina and Zoe designed to help creators build a sustainable community with less burnout and more freedom and equity.


Episode Highlights


[01:11] Introducing Zoe and Gina

[04:02] Overview of the creator economy survey

[06:43] An unexpected stats on the creator economy report

[10:45] What frustrates creators in keeping up with their social media game

[14:13] Opinions on the issue of ownership in social media platforms

[17:55] How to grow without spending much time building a massive audience

[21:03] The importance of shifting the focus on cultivating community value

[25:58] Learning the behavior of a brand’s customer set helps identify its equity layer

[28:55] The fundamentals of community design to create a thriving and sustainable community

[33:25] What actually came out from the creator economy research as a solution to challenges the majority of creators face

[36:50] Zoe and Gina’s framework in building community

[40:06] Being a community leader or creator is like being a host at a party

[46:05] Opinions on social media platform subscriptions, subscription burnout, and how to shift to a sustainable model

[51:06] Does the community way of thinking bring brand purpose alive?


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guests: Gina Bianchini  Zoe Scaman 


Trapital is home to the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 3333 no How KevOnStage is Building His Comedy Flywheel https://www.trapital.com/podcast Kevin Fredericks is a comedian, producer, director, and entrepreneur behind KevOnStage studios. He is known for his works Major Deal (2016), No Good Men (2008), and The Family Exchange (2015). Despite his talent, Hollywood somehow couldn't say yes to him. But that didn't stop him from having his green light and making his trademark in the tv industry. In fact, he surprised people to build his own streaming service.  Today's episode talks about how he built an independent brand that really paid off his hard work. He established a solid fan base, had millions of followers on social media, and monetized these platforms by producing his hilarious viral content, a total blast in the mainstream. Listen as we talk about what's going on in his business and his independent success, turning rejection into a massive opportunity to be where he is now. Episode Highlights [01:56] What KevOnStage is currently working on [04:49] His take on more black content going in the mainstream [06:53] KevOnStage’s motto, his marketing strategy, and business goals [11:57] What it’s like to have autonomy in his brand [19:08] His thoughts on artists knowing their audience and dealing with critics [21:30] What's the process from the stuff put out on socials versus onstage [25:24] How does he approach his game using different social platforms [32:38] What’s something beyond just the monetary gain that makes him want to continue to feel inspired to create content [35:13] His opinion on creators who are a one-platform-dominant [38:21] Where does his most lucrative income come from  [41:57] How he diversify his content to own the media and make his brand stand out [45:51] What would he like to be doing more of [51:28] KevOnStage’s new content to watch out for Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Kevin Fredericks Studios Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 28 Jan 2022 09:00:00 -0000 How KevOnStage is Building His Comedy Flywheel full 95 Dan Runcie Kevin Fredericks is a comedian, producer, director, and entrepreneur behind KevOnStage studios. He is known for his works Major Deal (2016), No Good Men (2008), and The Family Exchange (2015). Despite his talent, Hollywood somehow couldn't say yes to him. But that didn't stop him from having his green light and making his trademark in the tv industry. In fact, he surprised people to build his own streaming service.  Today's episode talks about how he built an independent brand that really paid off his hard work. He established a solid fan base, had millions of followers on social media, and monetized these platforms by producing his hilarious viral content, a total blast in the mainstream. Listen as we talk about what's going on in his business and his independent success, turning rejection into a massive opportunity to be where he is now. Episode Highlights [01:56] What KevOnStage is currently working on [04:49] His take on more black content going in the mainstream [06:53] KevOnStage’s motto, his marketing strategy, and business goals [11:57] What it’s like to have autonomy in his brand [19:08] His thoughts on artists knowing their audience and dealing with critics [21:30] What's the process from the stuff put out on socials versus onstage [25:24] How does he approach his game using different social platforms [32:38] What’s something beyond just the monetary gain that makes him want to continue to feel inspired to create content [35:13] His opinion on creators who are a one-platform-dominant [38:21] Where does his most lucrative income come from  [41:57] How he diversify his content to own the media and make his brand stand out [45:51] What would he like to be doing more of [51:28] KevOnStage’s new content to watch out for Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Kevin Fredericks Studios Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Kevin Fredericks is a comedian, producer, director, and entrepreneur behind KevOnStage studios. He is known for his works Major Deal (2016), No Good Men (2008), and The Family Exchange (2015). Despite his talent, Hollywood somehow couldn't say yes to him. But that didn't stop him from having his green light and making his trademark in the tv industry. In fact, he surprised people to build his own streaming service. 


Today's episode talks about how he built an independent brand that really paid off his hard work. He established a solid fan base, had millions of followers on social media, and monetized these platforms by producing his hilarious viral content, a total blast in the mainstream.


Listen as we talk about what's going on in his business and his independent success, turning rejection into a massive opportunity to be where he is now.


Episode Highlights

[01:56] What KevOnStage is currently working on

[04:49] His take on more black content going in the mainstream

[06:53] KevOnStage’s motto, his marketing strategy, and business goals

[11:57] What it’s like to have autonomy in his brand

[19:08] His thoughts on artists knowing their audience and dealing with critics

[21:30] What's the process from the stuff put out on socials versus onstage

[25:24] How does he approach his game using different social platforms

[32:38] What’s something beyond just the monetary gain that makes him want to continue to feel inspired to create content

[35:13] His opinion on creators who are a one-platform-dominant

[38:21] Where does his most lucrative income come from 

[41:57] How he diversify his content to own the media and make his brand stand out

[45:51] What would he like to be doing more of

[51:28] KevOnStage’s new content to watch out for


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Kevin Fredericks Studios


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 3358 no Troy Carter on the Future of Music Streaming https://www.trapital.com/podcast Troy Carter is the co-founder and CEO of Q&A, a technology and media company focused on powering the business of music via distribution, services, and data analytics. He has also produced his own music, managed some of the biggest artists like Lady Gaga and Eve, and worked for Spotify as its Global Head of Creator Services. In today’s show, we talk about trends in the music industry and how things need to change moving forward. We also discuss the role that record labels serve, Web3, Troy’s work with Venice Innovation Labs, and his approach to angel investing. If you want to learn more about IP distribution, the economics between labels and artists, and what streaming can look like, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights [02:42] What Troy learned while starting Q&A  [08:02] Why Kanye’s path is very similar to how tech founders run their companies [11:22] Troy’s forecast for major and indie record labels and their relationship with artists [16:00] His thoughts on sourcing from data, Taylor Swift’s deal with Republic Records, and the matrix of partners that artists should have [22:52] How artists have benefited from the age of digital downloads and streaming [27:10] Why Troy is a little scared for the streaming industry [31:08] What artists should think about before releasing new music [35:48] Troy’s insights from working with the Prince Estate and his angel investing Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Troy Carter, Q&A  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 21 Jan 2022 09:00:00 -0000 Troy Carter on the Future of Music Streaming full 94 Dan Runcie Troy Carter is the co-founder and CEO of Q&A, a technology and media company focused on powering the business of music via distribution, services, and data analytics. He has also produced his own music, managed some of the biggest artists like Lady Gaga and Eve, and worked for Spotify as its Global Head of Creator Services. In today’s show, we talk about trends in the music industry and how things need to change moving forward. We also discuss the role that record labels serve, Web3, Troy’s work with Venice Innovation Labs, and his approach to angel investing. If you want to learn more about IP distribution, the economics between labels and artists, and what streaming can look like, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights [02:42] What Troy learned while starting Q&A  [08:02] Why Kanye’s path is very similar to how tech founders run their companies [11:22] Troy’s forecast for major and indie record labels and their relationship with artists [16:00] His thoughts on sourcing from data, Taylor Swift’s deal with Republic Records, and the matrix of partners that artists should have [22:52] How artists have benefited from the age of digital downloads and streaming [27:10] Why Troy is a little scared for the streaming industry [31:08] What artists should think about before releasing new music [35:48] Troy’s insights from working with the Prince Estate and his angel investing Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Troy Carter, Q&A  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Troy Carter is the co-founder and CEO of Q&A, a technology and media company focused on powering the business of music via distribution, services, and data analytics. He has also produced his own music, managed some of the biggest artists like Lady Gaga and Eve, and worked for Spotify as its Global Head of Creator Services. In today’s show, we talk about trends in the music industry and how things need to change moving forward. We also discuss the role that record labels serve, Web3, Troy’s work with Venice Innovation Labs, and his approach to angel investing.


If you want to learn more about IP distribution, the economics between labels and artists, and what streaming can look like, this is the episode for you!


Episode Highlights

[02:42] What Troy learned while starting Q&A 

[08:02] Why Kanye’s path is very similar to how tech founders run their companies

[11:22] Troy’s forecast for major and indie record labels and their relationship with artists

[16:00] His thoughts on sourcing from data, Taylor Swift’s deal with Republic Records, and the matrix of partners that artists should have

[22:52] How artists have benefited from the age of digital downloads and streaming

[27:10] Why Troy is a little scared for the streaming industry

[31:08] What artists should think about before releasing new music

[35:48] Troy’s insights from working with the Prince Estate and his angel investing


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Troy Carter, Q&A 


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 



]]> 2662 no Ralph McDaniels on Video Music Box and Documenting Hip-Hop History https://www.trapital.com/podcast Ralph McDaniels—or “Uncle Ralph”—is the co-creator of Video Music Box, a popular video show that is dedicated to airing hip-hop music videos and showing a side of hip-hop specifically from New York and the tri-state area. In this episode, he talks about the documentary that he recently released in collaboration with Mass Appeal and Showtime, the artists that he has worked with, and his nonprofit organization. He also shares how he was able to leverage his platform into directing hip-hop videos and hosting parties. Listen and learn from a pioneer for hip-hop media personalities! Episode Highlights [03:58] The process of getting “You’re Watching Video Music Box” off the ground [09:28] Some memorable sections from the documentary [12:45] Ralph’s transition from being behind the camera to talking on the radio [14:42] About his business model, his mindset about money, and the parties he hosted [19:12] What the music industry was like when he first got into directing videos  [26:02] On bridging the gap between generations, staying resilient, and the importance of being present during cultural shifts  [31:38] About Video Music Box Collection and how the documentary has helped its goals [38:12] Ralph’s plan to bring his documentary to universities and shows Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Ralph McDaniels, @VideoMusicBox, Video Music Box Links: "You’re Watching Video Music Box" on Showtime Video Music Box Collection Ralph McDaniels On 'Video Music Box' & Capturing Legendary Moments During The Golden Age Of Hip Hop Ralph McDaniels’ Instagram Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:00:00 -0000 Ralph McDaniels on Video Music Box and Documenting Hip-Hop History full 93 Dan Runcie Ralph McDaniels—or “Uncle Ralph”—is the co-creator of Video Music Box, a popular video show that is dedicated to airing hip-hop music videos and showing a side of hip-hop specifically from New York and the tri-state area. In this episode, he talks about the documentary that he recently released in collaboration with Mass Appeal and Showtime, the artists that he has worked with, and his nonprofit organization. He also shares how he was able to leverage his platform into directing hip-hop videos and hosting parties. Listen and learn from a pioneer for hip-hop media personalities! Episode Highlights [03:58] The process of getting “You’re Watching Video Music Box” off the ground [09:28] Some memorable sections from the documentary [12:45] Ralph’s transition from being behind the camera to talking on the radio [14:42] About his business model, his mindset about money, and the parties he hosted [19:12] What the music industry was like when he first got into directing videos  [26:02] On bridging the gap between generations, staying resilient, and the importance of being present during cultural shifts  [31:38] About Video Music Box Collection and how the documentary has helped its goals [38:12] Ralph’s plan to bring his documentary to universities and shows Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Ralph McDaniels, @VideoMusicBox, Video Music Box Links: "You’re Watching Video Music Box" on Showtime Video Music Box Collection Ralph McDaniels On 'Video Music Box' & Capturing Legendary Moments During The Golden Age Of Hip Hop Ralph McDaniels’ Instagram Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Ralph McDaniels—or “Uncle Ralph”—is the co-creator of Video Music Box, a popular video show that is dedicated to airing hip-hop music videos and showing a side of hip-hop specifically from New York and the tri-state area. In this episode, he talks about the documentary that he recently released in collaboration with Mass Appeal and Showtime, the artists that he has worked with, and his nonprofit organization. He also shares how he was able to leverage his platform into directing hip-hop videos and hosting parties.


Listen and learn from a pioneer for hip-hop media personalities!


Episode Highlights

[03:58] The process of getting “You’re Watching Video Music Box” off the ground

[09:28] Some memorable sections from the documentary

[12:45] Ralph’s transition from being behind the camera to talking on the radio

[14:42] About his business model, his mindset about money, and the parties he hosted

[19:12] What the music industry was like when he first got into directing videos 

[26:02] On bridging the gap between generations, staying resilient, and the importance of being present during cultural shifts 

[31:38] About Video Music Box Collection and how the documentary has helped its goals

[38:12] Ralph’s plan to bring his documentary to universities and shows


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Ralph McDaniels, @VideoMusicBox, Video Music Box


Links:


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2369 no Master P on Bringing Culture to Corporate America (live from TMRE) https://www.trapital.com/podcast Master P is an American rapper, record executive, actor, and entrepreneur. In this episode, he shares his thoughts on what corporate America can learn from hip-hop culture. He then talks about his work to get distribution in some of the more competitive spaces on retail shelves across the country, Snoop Dogg, Shaq, and some of his business endeavors. He also weighs in on the future of businesses and answers a few questions from the audience. If you’re looking to get into corporate America and become the best in your space, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights [03:55] Master P’s insights on starting from the bottom, marketing as the key to his success, and bridging the gap between hip-hop and corporate America [10:15] Personalities sell thanks to social media [13:12] How to get talents to work with brands [15:58] On Master P’s transition from music to business, [19:45] What he learned from the types of partnerships he has been able to make [22:48] On creating ideas, being a blessing to others, and loving what you do [28:32] What sets great companies apart [33:32] Master P’s 5-year forecast for companies [36:58] How to shift from being rich to wealthy and how the Astroworld tragedy will impact the hip-hop industry [39:40] The accomplishment that Master P is most proud of and the best advice that he has ever received Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Master P, @MasterPMiller Link:  The Market Research Event Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Fri, 07 Jan 2022 09:00:00 -0000 Master P on Bringing Culture to Corporate America (live from TMRE) full 97 Dan Runcie Master P is an American rapper, record executive, actor, and entrepreneur. In this episode, he shares his thoughts on what corporate America can learn from hip-hop culture. He then talks about his work to get distribution in some of the more competitive spaces on retail shelves across the country, Snoop Dogg, Shaq, and some of his business endeavors. He also weighs in on the future of businesses and answers a few questions from the audience. If you’re looking to get into corporate America and become the best in your space, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights [03:55] Master P’s insights on starting from the bottom, marketing as the key to his success, and bridging the gap between hip-hop and corporate America [10:15] Personalities sell thanks to social media [13:12] How to get talents to work with brands [15:58] On Master P’s transition from music to business, [19:45] What he learned from the types of partnerships he has been able to make [22:48] On creating ideas, being a blessing to others, and loving what you do [28:32] What sets great companies apart [33:32] Master P’s 5-year forecast for companies [36:58] How to shift from being rich to wealthy and how the Astroworld tragedy will impact the hip-hop industry [39:40] The accomplishment that Master P is most proud of and the best advice that he has ever received Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Master P, @MasterPMiller Link:  The Market Research Event Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Master P is an American rapper, record executive, actor, and entrepreneur. In this episode, he shares his thoughts on what corporate America can learn from hip-hop culture. He then talks about his work to get distribution in some of the more competitive spaces on retail shelves across the country, Snoop Dogg, Shaq, and some of his business endeavors. He also weighs in on the future of businesses and answers a few questions from the audience.

If you’re looking to get into corporate America and become the best in your space, this is the episode for you!


Episode Highlights

[03:55] Master P’s insights on starting from the bottom, marketing as the key to his success, and bridging the gap between hip-hop and corporate America

[10:15] Personalities sell thanks to social media

[13:12] How to get talents to work with brands

[15:58] On Master P’s transition from music to business,

[19:45] What he learned from the types of partnerships he has been able to make

[22:48] On creating ideas, being a blessing to others, and loving what you do

[28:32] What sets great companies apart

[33:32] Master P’s 5-year forecast for companies

[36:58] How to shift from being rich to wealthy and how the Astroworld tragedy will impact the hip-hop industry

[39:40] The accomplishment that Master P is most proud of and the best advice that he has ever received


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Master P, @MasterPMiller


Link:


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.

]]> 2763 no Issa Rae on Insecure, Ownership in Media, and Creator Economy Trends https://www.trapital.com/podcast Issa Rae is an actress and creator who is best known for her work on “Insecure” that has been running for five seasons on HBO. In this episode, Issa shares her journey with Warner and the importance of ‘ownership’ in the industry, which has been a growing topic especially for a lot of black creators like herself. She also talks about the final week of “Insecure” and her plans moving forward.  Listen and be inspired by Issa’s story, achieving something that is often deemed unattainable: living your passion, creating engaging content, and being financially successful.  [02:56] What to expect from the final week of “Insecure”  [07:26] How the value of ‘ownership’ play a factor in the decisions in her content  [11:01] Why her experience with Warner, specifically, HBO is the best decision [14:13] On working on the digital side to expand her business  [19:41] What was her take on Quibi [22:39] On which of the multiple hats would Isaa want to have more focused on moving forward [29:12] Big announcement on things to keep a lookout for in 2022 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Issa Rae, @IssaRae, issarae.com Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Fri, 24 Dec 2021 09:00:00 -0000 Issa Rae on Insecure, Ownership in Media, and Creator Economy Trends full 96 Dan Runcie Issa Rae is an actress and creator who is best known for her work on “Insecure” that has been running for five seasons on HBO. In this episode, Issa shares her journey with Warner and the importance of ‘ownership’ in the industry, which has been a growing topic especially for a lot of black creators like herself. She also talks about the final week of “Insecure” and her plans moving forward.  Listen and be inspired by Issa’s story, achieving something that is often deemed unattainable: living your passion, creating engaging content, and being financially successful.  [02:56] What to expect from the final week of “Insecure”  [07:26] How the value of ‘ownership’ play a factor in the decisions in her content  [11:01] Why her experience with Warner, specifically, HBO is the best decision [14:13] On working on the digital side to expand her business  [19:41] What was her take on Quibi [22:39] On which of the multiple hats would Isaa want to have more focused on moving forward [29:12] Big announcement on things to keep a lookout for in 2022 Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Issa Rae, @IssaRae, issarae.com Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Issa Rae is an actress and creator who is best known for her work on “Insecure” that has been running for five seasons on HBO. In this episode, Issa shares her journey with Warner and the importance of ‘ownership’ in the industry, which has been a growing topic especially for a lot of black creators like herself. She also talks about the final week of “Insecure” and her plans moving forward. 

Listen and be inspired by Issa’s story, achieving something that is often deemed unattainable: living your passion, creating engaging content, and being financially successful. 


[02:56] What to expect from the final week of “Insecure” 

[07:26] How the value of ‘ownership’ play a factor in the decisions in her content 

[11:01] Why her experience with Warner, specifically, HBO is the best decision

[14:13] On working on the digital side to expand her business 

[19:41] What was her take on Quibi

[22:39] On which of the multiple hats would Isaa want to have more focused on moving forward

[29:12] Big announcement on things to keep a lookout for in 2022


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Issa Rae, @IssaRae, issarae.com


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.

]]> 1847 no Chris Taylor on MNRK's Rebrand, Managing Death Row Records Catalog, and Music's M&A Market https://www.trapital.com/podcast Chris Taylor is the president and CEO of MNRK, a record label that was formerly eOne Music. In this episode, he walks us through his journey from being a touring musician to having a legal practice to starting an independent label to heading eOne’s music division through its rebranding. He shares what it was like to sell Last Gang during the pandemic, to represent Drake and other Canadian artists, and to manage the Death Row Records catalog. He also offers advice as a record label executive to developing artists. Get thrown back to the pre-streaming era and see how the music landscape is changing from the eyes of a veteran in the industry! Episode Highlights [02:18] What MNRK has been up to since its rebranding and the process of how eOne sold its music business to Blackstone [08:40] On leading MNRK now compared to 2016 [15:52] The synergy opportunities that Last Gang and eOne lost because of its strategic partnership and the onslaught of COVID [19:02] Chris’ thoughts on the music landscape from the perspective of music companies and record labels, legacy copyrights, and  [25:28] The highlights of his legal career [31:58] What buying and listening to music was like in the early 2000s [35:48] On managing the Death Row Records catalog [40:15] On the opportunities for developing artists in the era of streaming and social media [48:02] Why some record labels have gotten into trouble Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Chris Taylor, @solicitorct, MNRK Music Group Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:00:00 -0000 Chris Taylor on MNRK's Rebrand, Managing Death Row Records Catalog, and Music's M&A Market full 96 Dan Runcie Chris Taylor is the president and CEO of MNRK, a record label that was formerly eOne Music. In this episode, he walks us through his journey from being a touring musician to having a legal practice to starting an independent label to heading eOne’s music division through its rebranding. He shares what it was like to sell Last Gang during the pandemic, to represent Drake and other Canadian artists, and to manage the Death Row Records catalog. He also offers advice as a record label executive to developing artists. Get thrown back to the pre-streaming era and see how the music landscape is changing from the eyes of a veteran in the industry! Episode Highlights [02:18] What MNRK has been up to since its rebranding and the process of how eOne sold its music business to Blackstone [08:40] On leading MNRK now compared to 2016 [15:52] The synergy opportunities that Last Gang and eOne lost because of its strategic partnership and the onslaught of COVID [19:02] Chris’ thoughts on the music landscape from the perspective of music companies and record labels, legacy copyrights, and  [25:28] The highlights of his legal career [31:58] What buying and listening to music was like in the early 2000s [35:48] On managing the Death Row Records catalog [40:15] On the opportunities for developing artists in the era of streaming and social media [48:02] Why some record labels have gotten into trouble Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Chris Taylor, @solicitorct, MNRK Music Group Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Chris Taylor is the president and CEO of MNRK, a record label that was formerly eOne Music. In this episode, he walks us through his journey from being a touring musician to having a legal practice to starting an independent label to heading eOne’s music division through its rebranding. He shares what it was like to sell Last Gang during the pandemic, to represent Drake and other Canadian artists, and to manage the Death Row Records catalog. He also offers advice as a record label executive to developing artists.

Get thrown back to the pre-streaming era and see how the music landscape is changing from the eyes of a veteran in the industry!


Episode Highlights

[02:18] What MNRK has been up to since its rebranding and the process of how eOne sold its music business to Blackstone

[08:40] On leading MNRK now compared to 2016

[15:52] The synergy opportunities that Last Gang and eOne lost because of its strategic partnership and the onslaught of COVID

[19:02] Chris’ thoughts on the music landscape from the perspective of music companies and record labels, legacy copyrights, and 

[25:28] The highlights of his legal career

[31:58] What buying and listening to music was like in the early 2000s

[35:48] On managing the Death Row Records catalog

[40:15] On the opportunities for developing artists in the era of streaming and social media

[48:02] Why some record labels have gotten into trouble


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Chris Taylor, @solicitorct, MNRK Music Group


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.

]]> 2929 no Charlie Kaplan on Audiomack Supporters, Artist-Fan Monetization, and Streaming Business Models https://www.trapital.com/podcast Charlie Kaplan is the VP of Product at Audiomack, a music streaming and discovery platform that reaches 20 million monthly active users. In today’s episode, he weighs in on Audiomack’s achievements and financial model. He then introduces the platform’s new monetization tool “Supporters” and explains why it matters. He also talks about Audiomack’s commitment to its users, the value exchange experience, and some of the trends he is seeing on social media platforms. If you’re a strategist who is interested in what's happening in the creator economy, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights [02:50] How Audiomack compares to other streaming services [05:55] Why the platform does not charge artists to upload and share music [11:48] The evolution of recorded music from file transfers to streaming [15:45] About Audiomack’s “Supporters” initiative [20:40] How listeners/fans benefit as a supporter [27:58] What Audiomack has to offer for artists versus other social media platforms and tools [37:30] On the company’s key performance indicators [40:50] Charlie’s observations about a stream-based economy Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Charlie Kaplan, @ciwk, Charlie Kaplan Links: Audiomack Audiomack on Twitter Audiomack on Instagram Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Fri, 10 Dec 2021 09:00:00 -0000 Charlie Kaplan on Audiomack Supporters, Artist-Fan Monetization, and Streaming Business Models full 94 Dan Runcie Charlie Kaplan is the VP of Product at Audiomack, a music streaming and discovery platform that reaches 20 million monthly active users. In today’s episode, he weighs in on Audiomack’s achievements and financial model. He then introduces the platform’s new monetization tool “Supporters” and explains why it matters. He also talks about Audiomack’s commitment to its users, the value exchange experience, and some of the trends he is seeing on social media platforms. If you’re a strategist who is interested in what's happening in the creator economy, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights [02:50] How Audiomack compares to other streaming services [05:55] Why the platform does not charge artists to upload and share music [11:48] The evolution of recorded music from file transfers to streaming [15:45] About Audiomack’s “Supporters” initiative [20:40] How listeners/fans benefit as a supporter [27:58] What Audiomack has to offer for artists versus other social media platforms and tools [37:30] On the company’s key performance indicators [40:50] Charlie’s observations about a stream-based economy Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Charlie Kaplan, @ciwk, Charlie Kaplan Links: Audiomack Audiomack on Twitter Audiomack on Instagram Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Charlie Kaplan is the VP of Product at Audiomack, a music streaming and discovery platform that reaches 20 million monthly active users. In today’s episode, he weighs in on Audiomack’s achievements and financial model. He then introduces the platform’s new monetization tool “Supporters” and explains why it matters. He also talks about Audiomack’s commitment to its users, the value exchange experience, and some of the trends he is seeing on social media platforms.

If you’re a strategist who is interested in what's happening in the creator economy, this is the episode for you!


Episode Highlights

[02:50] How Audiomack compares to other streaming services

[05:55] Why the platform does not charge artists to upload and share music

[11:48] The evolution of recorded music from file transfers to streaming

[15:45] About Audiomack’s “Supporters” initiative

[20:40] How listeners/fans benefit as a supporter

[27:58] What Audiomack has to offer for artists versus other social media platforms and tools

[37:30] On the company’s key performance indicators

[40:50] Charlie’s observations about a stream-based economy


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Charlie Kaplan, @ciwk, Charlie Kaplan


Links:


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.

]]> 2812 no Tunde Balogun on Developing R&B Superstars, LVRN's Journey, and Mental Health in Music https://www.trapital.com/podcast Tunde Balogun is the co-founder and president of Love Renaissance (stylized as LVRN), an Atlanta-based record label that is focused primarily on R&B music. We talk about Summer Walker’s latest release and how LVRN has prioritized mental health services not just for its staff but also its executives. Tunde then weighs in on the differences of running an R&B label versus running a hip-hop label. He also shares his thoughts on the trends he is seeing in the music industry such as NFTs and other emerging technology. If you are looking to change the game and make things better for artists overall, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights [02:18] What Tunde is hoping to achieve with Summer Walker’s latest album [04:38] How LVRN stays a tightly-knit company [09:00] The LVRN executives’ history [12:22] What lead them to the decision to invest in group therapy [21:42] How they balance their artists’ welfare with making a profit [25:20] Tunde’s thoughts on Tiktok and cryptocurrency [33:35] What LVRN does differently compared to hip-hop labels [40:55] On investments in the African market, how education is key, and streaming Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Tunde Balogun, @tundetun88, Love Renaissance Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Fri, 03 Dec 2021 09:00:00 -0000 Tunde Balogun on Developing R&B Superstars, LVRN's Journey, and Mental Health in Music full 93 Dan Runcie Tunde Balogun is the co-founder and president of Love Renaissance (stylized as LVRN), an Atlanta-based record label that is focused primarily on R&B music. We talk about Summer Walker’s latest release and how LVRN has prioritized mental health services not just for its staff but also its executives. Tunde then weighs in on the differences of running an R&B label versus running a hip-hop label. He also shares his thoughts on the trends he is seeing in the music industry such as NFTs and other emerging technology. If you are looking to change the game and make things better for artists overall, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights [02:18] What Tunde is hoping to achieve with Summer Walker’s latest album [04:38] How LVRN stays a tightly-knit company [09:00] The LVRN executives’ history [12:22] What lead them to the decision to invest in group therapy [21:42] How they balance their artists’ welfare with making a profit [25:20] Tunde’s thoughts on Tiktok and cryptocurrency [33:35] What LVRN does differently compared to hip-hop labels [40:55] On investments in the African market, how education is key, and streaming Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Tunde Balogun, @tundetun88, Love Renaissance Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Tunde Balogun is the co-founder and president of Love Renaissance (stylized as LVRN), an Atlanta-based record label that is focused primarily on R&B music. We talk about Summer Walker’s latest release and how LVRN has prioritized mental health services not just for its staff but also its executives. Tunde then weighs in on the differences of running an R&B label versus running a hip-hop label. He also shares his thoughts on the trends he is seeing in the music industry such as NFTs and other emerging technology.

If you are looking to change the game and make things better for artists overall, this is the episode for you!


Episode Highlights

[02:18] What Tunde is hoping to achieve with Summer Walker’s latest album

[04:38] How LVRN stays a tightly-knit company

[09:00] The LVRN executives’ history

[12:22] What lead them to the decision to invest in group therapy

[21:42] How they balance their artists’ welfare with making a profit

[25:20] Tunde’s thoughts on Tiktok and cryptocurrency

[33:35] What LVRN does differently compared to hip-hop labels

[40:55] On investments in the African market, how education is key, and streaming


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Tunde Balogun, @tundetun88, Love Renaissance


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.

]]> 2909 no Independent Artist Life with Flawless Real Talk (2020) https://www.trapital.com/podcast Rapper, producer, and entrepreneur Flawless Real Talk joined to talk about how he manages his rap career. He was the runner up on Netflix’s hip-hop competition show Rhythm & Flow, which boosted his career trajectory. But despite all the industry attention, Flawless is still an independent artist. He talks about that decision, the tradeoffs he’s had to make, and what his goals are as an artist. He recently hosted a livestream concert on LIVIT, where he had over 1 million fans join in. If you’re interested in how artists manage tradeoffs between being signed and indie, building a fanbase, and resiliency, then this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Flawless Real Talk, @flawlessri, flawlessri.com Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:00:00 -0000 Independent Artist Life with Flawless Real Talk (2020) full 92 Dan Runcie Rapper, producer, and entrepreneur Flawless Real Talk joined to talk about how he manages his rap career. He was the runner up on Netflix’s hip-hop competition show Rhythm & Flow, which boosted his career trajectory. But despite all the industry attention, Flawless is still an independent artist. He talks about that decision, the tradeoffs he’s had to make, and what his goals are as an artist. He recently hosted a livestream concert on LIVIT, where he had over 1 million fans join in. If you’re interested in how artists manage tradeoffs between being signed and indie, building a fanbase, and resiliency, then this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Flawless Real Talk, @flawlessri, flawlessri.com Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Rapper, producer, and entrepreneur Flawless Real Talk joined to talk about how he manages his rap career. He was the runner up on Netflix’s hip-hop competition show Rhythm & Flow, which boosted his career trajectory. But despite all the industry attention, Flawless is still an independent artist. He talks about that decision, the tradeoffs he’s had to make, and what his goals are as an artist. He recently hosted a livestream concert on LIVIT, where he had over 1 million fans join in.


If you’re interested in how artists manage tradeoffs between being signed and indie, building a fanbase, and resiliency, then this is the episode for you.


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Flawless Real Talk, @flawlessri, flawlessri.com


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2824 no Steven Galanis on Cameo's Rise (2020) https://www.trapital.com/podcast Cameo CEO and co-founder Steven Galanis came on the pod to talk about his company’s marketplace for personalized celebrity video shoutouts. We broke down Cameo’s growth in the pandemic, finding product-market fit with people who are more famous than they are rich, and tapping into the long tail. We also break down Cameo’s success with hip-hop artists and Black culture, and the future products that may come from the company. If you’re interested in how marketplaces are built, creating flywheels, and finding product-market fit, definitely check this podcast out. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Steven Galanis, cameo.com, @bookcameo Links: How Cameo Blew Up During Quarantine - New Yorker Why The Music Industry Should Be Tuning Into Cameo - Forbes Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 19 Nov 2021 09:00:00 -0000 Steven Galanis on Cameo's Rise (2020) full 91 Dan Runcie Cameo CEO and co-founder Steven Galanis came on the pod to talk about his company’s marketplace for personalized celebrity video shoutouts. We broke down Cameo’s growth in the pandemic, finding product-market fit with people who are more famous than they are rich, and tapping into the long tail. We also break down Cameo’s success with hip-hop artists and Black culture, and the future products that may come from the company. If you’re interested in how marketplaces are built, creating flywheels, and finding product-market fit, definitely check this podcast out. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Steven Galanis, cameo.com, @bookcameo Links: How Cameo Blew Up During Quarantine - New Yorker Why The Music Industry Should Be Tuning Into Cameo - Forbes Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Cameo CEO and co-founder Steven Galanis came on the pod to talk about his company’s marketplace for personalized celebrity video shoutouts. We broke down Cameo’s growth in the pandemic, finding product-market fit with people who are more famous than they are rich, and tapping into the long tail. We also break down Cameo’s success with hip-hop artists and Black culture, and the future products that may come from the company.

If you’re interested in how marketplaces are built, creating flywheels, and finding product-market fit, definitely check this podcast out.


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Steven Galanis, cameo.com, @bookcameo


Links:


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2633 no Trapital Mailbag #5: Blockchain Opportunities in Music, Middle Class Musicians, Astroworld, Indie vs Major Record Labels, and more https://www.trapital.com/podcast In today’s episode, I dive into a bunch of questions that I have received from readers. I weigh in on the opportunities that are available for middle-class hip-hop artists and how the creator economy is booming. In the wake of the Astroworld tragedy, I offer suggestions so that artists can do their part and manage crowds during music festivals. I also correct some misconceptions about blockchain technology, record labels, and streaming platforms. If you have had some burning questions about the future of music, tech, and startups, this may be the episode for you! Episode Highlights [01:30] My definition of what a middle-class musician is [06:10] How artists can be trained to handle crisis situations [09:55] On smart contracts, NFTs, and Web 2.0 [16:00] What the best indie record labels are doing that major record labels are not doing [24:38] How artists have been finding fans and monetizing these past few years [29:10] How artists get paid today compared to the CD era Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Link:  New Creator Manifesto Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:00:00 -0000 Trapital Mailbag #5: Blockchain Opportunities in Music, Middle Class Musicians, Astroworld, Indie vs Major Record Labels, and more full 90 Dan Runcie In today’s episode, I dive into a bunch of questions that I have received from readers. I weigh in on the opportunities that are available for middle-class hip-hop artists and how the creator economy is booming. In the wake of the Astroworld tragedy, I offer suggestions so that artists can do their part and manage crowds during music festivals. I also correct some misconceptions about blockchain technology, record labels, and streaming platforms. If you have had some burning questions about the future of music, tech, and startups, this may be the episode for you! Episode Highlights [01:30] My definition of what a middle-class musician is [06:10] How artists can be trained to handle crisis situations [09:55] On smart contracts, NFTs, and Web 2.0 [16:00] What the best indie record labels are doing that major record labels are not doing [24:38] How artists have been finding fans and monetizing these past few years [29:10] How artists get paid today compared to the CD era Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Link:  New Creator Manifesto Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  In today’s episode, I dive into a bunch of questions that I have received from readers. I weigh in on the opportunities that are available for middle-class hip-hop artists and how the creator economy is booming. In the wake of the Astroworld tragedy, I offer suggestions so that artists can do their part and manage crowds during music festivals. I also correct some misconceptions about blockchain technology, record labels, and streaming platforms.

If you have had some burning questions about the future of music, tech, and startups, this may be the episode for you!


Episode Highlights

[01:30] My definition of what a middle-class musician is

[06:10] How artists can be trained to handle crisis situations

[09:55] On smart contracts, NFTs, and Web 2.0

[16:00] What the best indie record labels are doing that major record labels are not doing

[24:38] How artists have been finding fans and monetizing these past few years

[29:10] How artists get paid today compared to the CD era


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Link:


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2234 no Dave Mays on The Source's Legacy, Launching Breakbeat, and State of Hip-Hop Media https://www.trapital.com/podcast Dave Mays is the founder and former CEO of The Source Magazine. In today’s episode, he weighs in on the magazine’s legacy, the evolution of media, and what hip-hop is all about. He then talks about Breakbeat, a new podcast network that he co-founded and heads. He also discusses the success of the podcast “Don’t Call Me White Girl”, the boom of podcasts, and the projects he is working on now. If you want to get into podcasts that are all about hip-hop, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: [03:10] About The Source Magazine and The Source Awards [11:15] Some lessons that can be learned from The Source [14:15] What led Dave to start Breakbeat [20:55] His future plans for the podcast network and a hip-hop-based app [25:22] His transition from behind the scenes to being a voice on the network [27:08] How he met his business partner and how he measures success [34:00] Dave’s observations about the podcast landscape [39:32] What Breakbeat is currently working on [45:05] The process of creating a docu-series on Larry Hoover Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Dave Mays, @therealdavemays, Breakbeat   Links: Mighty Networks' study on the creator economy Breakbeat Media on Instagram Breakbeat Media on Twitter Breakbeat Media on Youtube Dave Mays on Instagram Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 05 Nov 2021 09:00:00 -0000 Dave Mays on The Source's Legacy, Launching Breakbeat, and State of Hip-Hop Media full 92 Dan Runcie Dave Mays is the founder and former CEO of The Source Magazine. In today’s episode, he weighs in on the magazine’s legacy, the evolution of media, and what hip-hop is all about. He then talks about Breakbeat, a new podcast network that he co-founded and heads. He also discusses the success of the podcast “Don’t Call Me White Girl”, the boom of podcasts, and the projects he is working on now. If you want to get into podcasts that are all about hip-hop, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: [03:10] About The Source Magazine and The Source Awards [11:15] Some lessons that can be learned from The Source [14:15] What led Dave to start Breakbeat [20:55] His future plans for the podcast network and a hip-hop-based app [25:22] His transition from behind the scenes to being a voice on the network [27:08] How he met his business partner and how he measures success [34:00] Dave’s observations about the podcast landscape [39:32] What Breakbeat is currently working on [45:05] The process of creating a docu-series on Larry Hoover Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Dave Mays, @therealdavemays, Breakbeat   Links: Mighty Networks' study on the creator economy Breakbeat Media on Instagram Breakbeat Media on Twitter Breakbeat Media on Youtube Dave Mays on Instagram Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Dave Mays is the founder and former CEO of The Source Magazine. In today’s episode, he weighs in on the magazine’s legacy, the evolution of media, and what hip-hop is all about. He then talks about Breakbeat, a new podcast network that he co-founded and heads. He also discusses the success of the podcast “Don’t Call Me White Girl”, the boom of podcasts, and the projects he is working on now.

If you want to get into podcasts that are all about hip-hop, this is the episode for you!


Episode Highlights:

[03:10] About The Source Magazine and The Source Awards

[11:15] Some lessons that can be learned from The Source

[14:15] What led Dave to start Breakbeat

[20:55] His future plans for the podcast network and a hip-hop-based app

[25:22] His transition from behind the scenes to being a voice on the network

[27:08] How he met his business partner and how he measures success

[34:00] Dave’s observations about the podcast landscape

[39:32] What Breakbeat is currently working on

[45:05] The process of creating a docu-series on Larry Hoover


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Dave Mays, @therealdavemays, Breakbeat

 

Links:

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2989 no Sacha Jenkins on Rick James Life and Times, the Rise of Music Documentaries, and Hip Hop 50 https://www.trapital.com/podcast Sacha Jenkins is a documentarian, a film producer, and a creative director at Mass Appeal. He joins me on today's show to talk about his most recent documentary titled “Bitchin': The Sound and Fury of Rick James” and the steps that he took to get that project off the ground. He also weighs in on the boom of documentaries, giving us previews of the projects he is working on now.  If you want to know more about music documentaries, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: [02:42] What inspired Sacha to do a project about Rick James and what messages he wanted to convey to viewers [06:32] Why do some artists act the way they do [08:48] The process of making a documentary [11:55] What people don’t know about Rick James [18:35] How viewers have responded to the documentary [20:08] Sacha’s thoughts on music by POCs [24:18] On the rise of music documentaries thanks to streaming [27:52] Sacha’s dream project [31:35] About “Hip Hop 50” Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Sacha Jenkins, Mass Appeal   Links: Mighty Networks SHOWTIME Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 29 Oct 2021 09:00:00 -0000 Sacha Jenkins on Rick James Life and Times, the Rise of Music Documentaries, and Hip Hop 50 full 88 Dan Runcie Sacha Jenkins is a documentarian, a film producer, and a creative director at Mass Appeal. He joins me on today's show to talk about his most recent documentary titled “Bitchin': The Sound and Fury of Rick James” and the steps that he took to get that project off the ground. He also weighs in on the boom of documentaries, giving us previews of the projects he is working on now.  If you want to know more about music documentaries, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: [02:42] What inspired Sacha to do a project about Rick James and what messages he wanted to convey to viewers [06:32] Why do some artists act the way they do [08:48] The process of making a documentary [11:55] What people don’t know about Rick James [18:35] How viewers have responded to the documentary [20:08] Sacha’s thoughts on music by POCs [24:18] On the rise of music documentaries thanks to streaming [27:52] Sacha’s dream project [31:35] About “Hip Hop 50” Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Sacha Jenkins, Mass Appeal   Links: Mighty Networks SHOWTIME Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Sacha Jenkins is a documentarian, a film producer, and a creative director at Mass Appeal. He joins me on today's show to talk about his most recent documentary titled “Bitchin': The Sound and Fury of Rick James” and the steps that he took to get that project off the ground. He also weighs in on the boom of documentaries, giving us previews of the projects he is working on now. 

If you want to know more about music documentaries, this is the episode for you!


Episode Highlights:

[02:42] What inspired Sacha to do a project about Rick James and what messages he wanted to convey to viewers

[06:32] Why do some artists act the way they do

[08:48] The process of making a documentary

[11:55] What people don’t know about Rick James

[18:35] How viewers have responded to the documentary

[20:08] Sacha’s thoughts on music by POCs

[24:18] On the rise of music documentaries thanks to streaming

[27:52] Sacha’s dream project

[31:35] About “Hip Hop 50”


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Sacha Jenkins, Mass Appeal

 

Links:


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2123 no Zack O'Malley Greenburg on How Music Leads Innovation, Forbes to Substack, and Hip-Hop's Next Billionaire https://www.trapital.com/podcast Former Forbes senior entertainment editor Zack O'Malley Greenburg returns to the podcast to talk about his achievements when he worked for the media company. He shares his thoughts on Jay-Z, the challenges of publishing, and why he decided to go with Substack. He also discusses his books, “We Are All Musicians Now” and “A-List Angels”, diving deep into some of the different themes and artists that he wrote about.  If you’re interested in seeing things from a music and entertainment writer’s perspective, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights [03:05] On pioneering Forbes’ hip-hop coverage  [08:22] How Zack valuates the net worth of hip-hop artists [11:25] Jay-Z’s billionaire status and his future plans [17:32] About Zack’s transition to Substack [23:38] Forbes’ journalism style versus Zack’s writing style [25:25] A preview of “We Are All Musicians Now” [34:35] What “A-List Angels” is about [39:12] Zack’s prediction on who is going to be the next billionaire Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Zack O'Malley Greenburg, @zogblog, Zack O'Malley Greenburg Links: Mighty Networks We Are All Musicians Now by Zack O'Malley Greenburg Substack A-List Angels by Zack O’Malley Greenburg Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 22 Oct 2021 09:00:00 -0000 Zack O'Malley Greenburg on How Music Leads Innovation, Forbes to Substack, and Hip-Hop's Next Billionaire full 87 Dan Runcie Former Forbes senior entertainment editor Zack O'Malley Greenburg returns to the podcast to talk about his achievements when he worked for the media company. He shares his thoughts on Jay-Z, the challenges of publishing, and why he decided to go with Substack. He also discusses his books, “We Are All Musicians Now” and “A-List Angels”, diving deep into some of the different themes and artists that he wrote about.  If you’re interested in seeing things from a music and entertainment writer’s perspective, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights [03:05] On pioneering Forbes’ hip-hop coverage  [08:22] How Zack valuates the net worth of hip-hop artists [11:25] Jay-Z’s billionaire status and his future plans [17:32] About Zack’s transition to Substack [23:38] Forbes’ journalism style versus Zack’s writing style [25:25] A preview of “We Are All Musicians Now” [34:35] What “A-List Angels” is about [39:12] Zack’s prediction on who is going to be the next billionaire Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Zack O'Malley Greenburg, @zogblog, Zack O'Malley Greenburg Links: Mighty Networks We Are All Musicians Now by Zack O'Malley Greenburg Substack A-List Angels by Zack O’Malley Greenburg Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Former Forbes senior entertainment editor Zack O'Malley Greenburg returns to the podcast to talk about his achievements when he worked for the media company. He shares his thoughts on Jay-Z, the challenges of publishing, and why he decided to go with Substack. He also discusses his books, “We Are All Musicians Now” and “A-List Angels”, diving deep into some of the different themes and artists that he wrote about. 

If you’re interested in seeing things from a music and entertainment writer’s perspective, this is the episode for you!


Episode Highlights

[03:05] On pioneering Forbes’ hip-hop coverage 

[08:22] How Zack valuates the net worth of hip-hop artists

[11:25] Jay-Z’s billionaire status and his future plans

[17:32] About Zack’s transition to Substack

[23:38] Forbes’ journalism style versus Zack’s writing style

[25:25] A preview of “We Are All Musicians Now”

[34:35] What “A-List Angels” is about

[39:12] Zack’s prediction on who is going to be the next billionaire


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Zack O'Malley Greenburg, @zogblog, Zack O'Malley Greenburg


Links:


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2779 no Mary Rahmani on TikTok Artist Strategies, Launching Moon Projects, and Influencer Partnerships https://www.trapital.com/podcast Mary Rahmani is the founder and CEO of Moon Projects, an innovative agency that is focused on short-form video content and helping artists, brands, and companies take that to the next level. In this episode, she talks about her three-pronged company and what she has learned from her time as a TikTok executive. She then discusses Moon Projects’ partnership with Republic Records and some of the trends she is seeing within the entertainment industry. If you’re looking to be a part of the TikTok community and to learn more about leveraging short-form videos, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights [02:10] An overview of Mary’s career and how she established Moon Projects [06:05] Strategy is key to gaining virality and staying relevant on TikTok [09:48] What emerging artists can learn from famous musicians who use TikTok like 24kGoldn, Megan Thee Stallion, Doja Cat, and Lizzo [13:57] How Mary chooses artists to work with and how A&R representatives should be dealing with artists [21:22] About Republic Records and Mary’s perspective on work-life balance [29:08] Music as a love language and TikTok as a platform [33:32] On music-gaming collabs, the divergence of fame and talent, and video streaming Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Mary Rahmani, @mrahmama, Moon Projects Links: How More TikTok Stars Can Succeed in the Music Industry Republic Records Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:00:00 -0000 Mary Rahmani on TikTok Artist Strategies, Launching Moon Projects, and Influencer Partnerships full 86 Dan Runcie Mary Rahmani is the founder and CEO of Moon Projects, an innovative agency that is focused on short-form video content and helping artists, brands, and companies take that to the next level. In this episode, she talks about her three-pronged company and what she has learned from her time as a TikTok executive. She then discusses Moon Projects’ partnership with Republic Records and some of the trends she is seeing within the entertainment industry. If you’re looking to be a part of the TikTok community and to learn more about leveraging short-form videos, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights [02:10] An overview of Mary’s career and how she established Moon Projects [06:05] Strategy is key to gaining virality and staying relevant on TikTok [09:48] What emerging artists can learn from famous musicians who use TikTok like 24kGoldn, Megan Thee Stallion, Doja Cat, and Lizzo [13:57] How Mary chooses artists to work with and how A&R representatives should be dealing with artists [21:22] About Republic Records and Mary’s perspective on work-life balance [29:08] Music as a love language and TikTok as a platform [33:32] On music-gaming collabs, the divergence of fame and talent, and video streaming Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Mary Rahmani, @mrahmama, Moon Projects Links: How More TikTok Stars Can Succeed in the Music Industry Republic Records Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Mary Rahmani is the founder and CEO of Moon Projects, an innovative agency that is focused on short-form video content and helping artists, brands, and companies take that to the next level. In this episode, she talks about her three-pronged company and what she has learned from her time as a TikTok executive. She then discusses Moon Projects’ partnership with Republic Records and some of the trends she is seeing within the entertainment industry.

If you’re looking to be a part of the TikTok community and to learn more about leveraging short-form videos, this is the episode for you!


Episode Highlights

[02:10] An overview of Mary’s career and how she established Moon Projects

[06:05] Strategy is key to gaining virality and staying relevant on TikTok

[09:48] What emerging artists can learn from famous musicians who use TikTok like 24kGoldn, Megan Thee Stallion, Doja Cat, and Lizzo

[13:57] How Mary chooses artists to work with and how A&R representatives should be dealing with artists

[21:22] About Republic Records and Mary’s perspective on work-life balance

[29:08] Music as a love language and TikTok as a platform

[33:32] On music-gaming collabs, the divergence of fame and talent, and video streaming


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Mary Rahmani, @mrahmama, Moon Projects


Links:


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2881 no Mike Weissman on SoundCloud's Creator Strategy, Web 3.0, and Building a Music Entertainment Business https://www.trapital.com/podcast Mike Weissman is the CEO of SoundCloud. He returns to the podcast to talk about the independent artist community, user-centric monetization, and the potential in NFTs and the like in a Web 3.0 era. He then weighs in on the revenue model in relation to the rise of streaming services and on SoundCloud’s progress to becoming a modern music entertainment business. If you are interested in the future of the music industry, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: [02:38] The 3 pieces to SoundCloud’s growth and success [07:55] How fan-powered royalties work and benefit artists [13:20] What Mike is seeing from major labels [16:00] The opportunities in Web 3.0  [19:30] On the $10 all-you-can-consume subscription model [23:35] SoundCloud’s partnerships and future plans [26:28] Podcasting versus music streaming versus video [31:50] On SoundCloud’s international growth Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Mike Weissman, @mweissman2, SoundCloud   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 08 Oct 2021 09:00:00 -0000 Mike Weissman on SoundCloud's Creator Strategy, Web 3.0, and Building a Music Entertainment Business full 85 Dan Runcie Mike Weissman is the CEO of SoundCloud. He returns to the podcast to talk about the independent artist community, user-centric monetization, and the potential in NFTs and the like in a Web 3.0 era. He then weighs in on the revenue model in relation to the rise of streaming services and on SoundCloud’s progress to becoming a modern music entertainment business. If you are interested in the future of the music industry, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: [02:38] The 3 pieces to SoundCloud’s growth and success [07:55] How fan-powered royalties work and benefit artists [13:20] What Mike is seeing from major labels [16:00] The opportunities in Web 3.0  [19:30] On the $10 all-you-can-consume subscription model [23:35] SoundCloud’s partnerships and future plans [26:28] Podcasting versus music streaming versus video [31:50] On SoundCloud’s international growth Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Mike Weissman, @mweissman2, SoundCloud   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Mike Weissman is the CEO of SoundCloud. He returns to the podcast to talk about the independent artist community, user-centric monetization, and the potential in NFTs and the like in a Web 3.0 era. He then weighs in on the revenue model in relation to the rise of streaming services and on SoundCloud’s progress to becoming a modern music entertainment business.

If you are interested in the future of the music industry, this is the episode for you!


Episode Highlights:

[02:38] The 3 pieces to SoundCloud’s growth and success

[07:55] How fan-powered royalties work and benefit artists

[13:20] What Mike is seeing from major labels

[16:00] The opportunities in Web 3.0 

[19:30] On the $10 all-you-can-consume subscription model

[23:35] SoundCloud’s partnerships and future plans

[26:28] Podcasting versus music streaming versus video

[31:50] On SoundCloud’s international growth


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Mike Weissman, @mweissman2, SoundCloud

 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2306 no Steve Stoute on Artist Independence, UnitedMasters, Translation, and Facilitating Fan Access https://www.trapital.com/podcast Steve Stoute is the founder and CEO of the music distributor UnitedMasters and the creative agency Translation. He returns to the podcast to talk about what his companies have been building towards in the past few years. He also weighs in on the trends he is seeing with independent artists and record labels—including legacy infrastructures, cryptocurrencies, and direct fan communication. Tune in and get up-to-date on what’s happening in the music scene! Episode Highlights [03:32] The biggest shift in the creator economy [10:10] On artists owning IPs and what production companies should be doing [14:15] Technology advances benefit the rights holder [18:15] About UnitedMasters’ world-class technical team and its partnerships [25:42] How UnitedMasters and Translation push the cultural edge while giving artists the opportunity to become small businesses [31:30] The opportunities in text marketing platforms and CRM tools [46:30] Why gamers and adult performers have found success through platforms like Twitch and OnlyFans Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Steve Stoute, @SteveStoute Links: MEP Capital UnitedMasters Translation Substack Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 01 Oct 2021 09:00:00 -0000 Steve Stoute on Artist Independence, UnitedMasters, Translation, and Facilitating Fan Access full 84 Dan Runcie Steve Stoute is the founder and CEO of the music distributor UnitedMasters and the creative agency Translation. He returns to the podcast to talk about what his companies have been building towards in the past few years. He also weighs in on the trends he is seeing with independent artists and record labels—including legacy infrastructures, cryptocurrencies, and direct fan communication. Tune in and get up-to-date on what’s happening in the music scene! Episode Highlights [03:32] The biggest shift in the creator economy [10:10] On artists owning IPs and what production companies should be doing [14:15] Technology advances benefit the rights holder [18:15] About UnitedMasters’ world-class technical team and its partnerships [25:42] How UnitedMasters and Translation push the cultural edge while giving artists the opportunity to become small businesses [31:30] The opportunities in text marketing platforms and CRM tools [46:30] Why gamers and adult performers have found success through platforms like Twitch and OnlyFans Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Steve Stoute, @SteveStoute Links: MEP Capital UnitedMasters Translation Substack Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Steve Stoute is the founder and CEO of the music distributor UnitedMasters and the creative agency Translation. He returns to the podcast to talk about what his companies have been building towards in the past few years. He also weighs in on the trends he is seeing with independent artists and record labels—including legacy infrastructures, cryptocurrencies, and direct fan communication.


Tune in and get up-to-date on what’s happening in the music scene!


Episode Highlights

[03:32] The biggest shift in the creator economy

[10:10] On artists owning IPs and what production companies should be doing

[14:15] Technology advances benefit the rights holder

[18:15] About UnitedMasters’ world-class technical team and its partnerships

[25:42] How UnitedMasters and Translation push the cultural edge while giving artists the opportunity to become small businesses

[31:30] The opportunities in text marketing platforms and CRM tools

[46:30] Why gamers and adult performers have found success through platforms like Twitch and OnlyFans


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Steve Stoute, @SteveStoute


Links:


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2534 no Karl Fowlkes on Becoming an Entertainment Attorney, NBA Agent, and NIL Opportunities https://www.trapital.com/podcast Karl Fowlkes is an entertainment attorney, the founder of Fowlkes Firm, and a certified NBPA player agent under Firm Sports. In this episode, he walks us through his journey to where he is today. We talk about some of the artists he has worked with, the challenges of properly communicating information, and how athletes are missing out on revenue streams. Karl also weighs in on NFTs and cryptocurrency. Tune in for insight from a lawyer/agent who has established a name for himself both in music and in sports. Episode Highlights: [02:52] Karl’s transition from law school to building a network and starting a law firm [08:08] His process for raising funds [10:02] About Section 8 and his partnership with Lil Baby [13:40] Creators need to focus on the following when it comes to their contracts: length, obligation, money, and ownership [17:00] On content creation [24:45] Why Karl decided to become an NBA agent [28:45] On NIL (names, images or likeness), brand building, and maximizing one’s community or alumni base [37:00] Karl’s hate-love relationship with NFTs Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Karl Fowlkes, @esqfowlkes, Fowlkes Firm Links: Chosen (feat. Ty Dolla $ign and Tyga) by Blxst No Love Lost by Blxst Moneybagg Yo Dro Kenji Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 24 Sep 2021 08:00:00 -0000 Karl Fowlkes on Becoming an Entertainment Attorney, NBA Agent, and NIL Opportunities full 87 Dan Runcie Karl Fowlkes is an entertainment attorney, the founder of Fowlkes Firm, and a certified NBPA player agent under Firm Sports. In this episode, he walks us through his journey to where he is today. We talk about some of the artists he has worked with, the challenges of properly communicating information, and how athletes are missing out on revenue streams. Karl also weighs in on NFTs and cryptocurrency. Tune in for insight from a lawyer/agent who has established a name for himself both in music and in sports. Episode Highlights: [02:52] Karl’s transition from law school to building a network and starting a law firm [08:08] His process for raising funds [10:02] About Section 8 and his partnership with Lil Baby [13:40] Creators need to focus on the following when it comes to their contracts: length, obligation, money, and ownership [17:00] On content creation [24:45] Why Karl decided to become an NBA agent [28:45] On NIL (names, images or likeness), brand building, and maximizing one’s community or alumni base [37:00] Karl’s hate-love relationship with NFTs Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Karl Fowlkes, @esqfowlkes, Fowlkes Firm Links: Chosen (feat. Ty Dolla $ign and Tyga) by Blxst No Love Lost by Blxst Moneybagg Yo Dro Kenji Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Karl Fowlkes is an entertainment attorney, the founder of Fowlkes Firm, and a certified NBPA player agent under Firm Sports. In this episode, he walks us through his journey to where he is today. We talk about some of the artists he has worked with, the challenges of properly communicating information, and how athletes are missing out on revenue streams. Karl also weighs in on NFTs and cryptocurrency.

Tune in for insight from a lawyer/agent who has established a name for himself both in music and in sports.


Episode Highlights:

[02:52] Karl’s transition from law school to building a network and starting a law firm

[08:08] His process for raising funds

[10:02] About Section 8 and his partnership with Lil Baby

[13:40] Creators need to focus on the following when it comes to their contracts: length, obligation, money, and ownership

[17:00] On content creation

[24:45] Why Karl decided to become an NBA agent

[28:45] On NIL (names, images or likeness), brand building, and maximizing one’s community or alumni base

[37:00] Karl’s hate-love relationship with NFTs


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Karl Fowlkes, @esqfowlkes, Fowlkes Firm


Links:


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2311 no DJ Semtex on Donda, Certified Lover Boy, Podcasting, and UK Hip-Hop https://www.trapital.com/podcast DJ Semtex is an author, a podcaster, a radio host, and a DJ. In part 2 of our conversation, he shares his thoughts on Donda and Certified Lover Boy, diving into how these albums reflect on Kanye West’s and Drake’s artistry. He then weighs in on music journalism, fan feedback, and the gradual comeback of live performances. He also talks about podcasting and compares it to doing radio shows, going into some of his interviews.  If you’re a fan of DJ Semtex or you’re just looking to start your own music podcast, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: [02:35] DJ Semtex’s thoughts on Donda and Certified Lover Boy [09:15] Why Donda is a masterpiece [16:25] Music criticism in the era of social media [22:32] What music events are like now compared to pre-pandemic [28:45] Whether or not hip hop will reach a saturation point [34:05] Podcast interviews versus radio interviews [42:50] How hip hop has changed the podcasting scene and online consumption [52:55] Some UK artists to watch out for Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: DJ Semtex, @DJSemtex, DJ Semtex Links: Hip Hop Raised Me podcast Hip Hop Raised Me by DJ Semtex Clubhouse Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 17 Sep 2021 08:00:00 -0000 DJ Semtex on Donda, Certified Lover Boy, Podcasting, and UK Hip-Hop full 86 Dan Runcie DJ Semtex is an author, a podcaster, a radio host, and a DJ. In part 2 of our conversation, he shares his thoughts on Donda and Certified Lover Boy, diving into how these albums reflect on Kanye West’s and Drake’s artistry. He then weighs in on music journalism, fan feedback, and the gradual comeback of live performances. He also talks about podcasting and compares it to doing radio shows, going into some of his interviews.  If you’re a fan of DJ Semtex or you’re just looking to start your own music podcast, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: [02:35] DJ Semtex’s thoughts on Donda and Certified Lover Boy [09:15] Why Donda is a masterpiece [16:25] Music criticism in the era of social media [22:32] What music events are like now compared to pre-pandemic [28:45] Whether or not hip hop will reach a saturation point [34:05] Podcast interviews versus radio interviews [42:50] How hip hop has changed the podcasting scene and online consumption [52:55] Some UK artists to watch out for Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: DJ Semtex, @DJSemtex, DJ Semtex Links: Hip Hop Raised Me podcast Hip Hop Raised Me by DJ Semtex Clubhouse Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  DJ Semtex is an author, a podcaster, a radio host, and a DJ. In part 2 of our conversation, he shares his thoughts on Donda and Certified Lover Boy, diving into how these albums reflect on Kanye West’s and Drake’s artistry. He then weighs in on music journalism, fan feedback, and the gradual comeback of live performances. He also talks about podcasting and compares it to doing radio shows, going into some of his interviews. 

If you’re a fan of DJ Semtex or you’re just looking to start your own music podcast, this is the episode for you!


Episode Highlights:

[02:35] DJ Semtex’s thoughts on Donda and Certified Lover Boy

[09:15] Why Donda is a masterpiece

[16:25] Music criticism in the era of social media

[22:32] What music events are like now compared to pre-pandemic

[28:45] Whether or not hip hop will reach a saturation point

[34:05] Podcast interviews versus radio interviews

[42:50] How hip hop has changed the podcasting scene and online consumption

[52:55] Some UK artists to watch out for


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: DJ Semtex, @DJSemtex, DJ Semtex


Links:


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2942 no Rick Ross on Bossing Up, Building His Empire, WingStop, and his Investments https://www.trapital.com/podcast Joining me on the show is Rick Ross—rapper, entrepreneur, mogul, and record executive. He has over 20 partnerships, and he just recently published “The Perfect Day to Boss Up” which he wrote during the pandemic. In this episode, Rick discusses his passion for music and business, highlighting the importance of finding joy in the things you do. He then talks about his home which has been featured in the movies “SuperFly” and “Coming 2 America”. He also weighs in on the feature market and ways to go viral. Strap in for some gold nuggets from a man who has found success in both music and business, and get into the mindset that you need to be in to level up! Episode Highlights [02:41] How Rick has changed since the pandemic [05:08] How he evaluates which brands or businesses to partner with [07:51] On doing live performances [11:07] About Rick’s Wingstop franchises and his thoughts on artists getting involved with the fast food industry [14:21] How Maybach Music Group fits into Rick’s vision [16:55] About his 280-acre estate, The Promised Land [24:44] On investing in physical and intangible assets [27:23] What to expect when doing features and from Rick’s upcoming album  [30:00] On going viral, networking, and building an empire  Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Rick Ross, @RickRoss Link:  The Perfect Day to Boss Up by Rick Ross Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 10 Sep 2021 08:00:00 -0000 Rick Ross on Bossing Up, Building His Empire, WingStop, and his Investments full 85 Dan Runcie Joining me on the show is Rick Ross—rapper, entrepreneur, mogul, and record executive. He has over 20 partnerships, and he just recently published “The Perfect Day to Boss Up” which he wrote during the pandemic. In this episode, Rick discusses his passion for music and business, highlighting the importance of finding joy in the things you do. He then talks about his home which has been featured in the movies “SuperFly” and “Coming 2 America”. He also weighs in on the feature market and ways to go viral. Strap in for some gold nuggets from a man who has found success in both music and business, and get into the mindset that you need to be in to level up! Episode Highlights [02:41] How Rick has changed since the pandemic [05:08] How he evaluates which brands or businesses to partner with [07:51] On doing live performances [11:07] About Rick’s Wingstop franchises and his thoughts on artists getting involved with the fast food industry [14:21] How Maybach Music Group fits into Rick’s vision [16:55] About his 280-acre estate, The Promised Land [24:44] On investing in physical and intangible assets [27:23] What to expect when doing features and from Rick’s upcoming album  [30:00] On going viral, networking, and building an empire  Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Rick Ross, @RickRoss Link:  The Perfect Day to Boss Up by Rick Ross Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Joining me on the show is Rick Ross—rapper, entrepreneur, mogul, and record executive. He has over 20 partnerships, and he just recently published “The Perfect Day to Boss Up” which he wrote during the pandemic. In this episode, Rick discusses his passion for music and business, highlighting the importance of finding joy in the things you do. He then talks about his home which has been featured in the movies “SuperFly” and “Coming 2 America”. He also weighs in on the feature market and ways to go viral.


Strap in for some gold nuggets from a man who has found success in both music and business, and get into the mindset that you need to be in to level up!


Episode Highlights

[02:41] How Rick has changed since the pandemic

[05:08] How he evaluates which brands or businesses to partner with

[07:51] On doing live performances

[11:07] About Rick’s Wingstop franchises and his thoughts on artists getting involved with the fast food industry

[14:21] How Maybach Music Group fits into Rick’s vision

[16:55] About his 280-acre estate, The Promised Land

[24:44] On investing in physical and intangible assets

[27:23] What to expect when doing features and from Rick’s upcoming album 

[30:00] On going viral, networking, and building an empire 


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Rick Ross, @RickRoss


Link:


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2192 no The OutKast Edge https://www.trapital.com/podcast For the first part of this episode, I do a live reading of an essay that I wrote about the rap duo OutKast and a theory that I’ve named after their journey. I explain how different phases of technology and platforms have played a role in OutKast, Tyler Perry, Issa Rae, and Tyler, the Creator’s trajectories to success. After that, I weigh in on some of my readers’ suggestions for people—in hip-hop and in other industries—who they think have the OutKast Edge. And to wrap it all up, I talk about a few names from my own personal list. Tune in to this episode to learn how slept-on trends can become popular and how artists can sustain their unique edge to succeed! Episode Highlights [01:32] About OutKast [03:43] The OutKast Edge theory [04:40] Create content for like-minded outsiders [05:07] Build an audience on independent platforms  [05:45] Play the long game: persevere and push through [06:17] Who else has the OutKast Edge [11:11] The OutKast Edge evolves with phases of technology [14:00] You can lose your OutKast Edge [16:48] My thoughts on Doja Cat, Anderson .Paak, and The Weeknd [21:54] On Elon Musk’s Tesla and David Portnoy’s Barstool Sports [24:27] Why Frank Ocean is popular but does not have the OutKast Edge [25:48] My personal picks: Ziwe Fumudoh, Griselda, Lil Dicky, and Nadeshot Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Links:  The OutKast Edge Public.com (code: trapital) Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 03 Sep 2021 08:00:00 -0000 The OutKast Edge full 84 Dan Runcie For the first part of this episode, I do a live reading of an essay that I wrote about the rap duo OutKast and a theory that I’ve named after their journey. I explain how different phases of technology and platforms have played a role in OutKast, Tyler Perry, Issa Rae, and Tyler, the Creator’s trajectories to success. After that, I weigh in on some of my readers’ suggestions for people—in hip-hop and in other industries—who they think have the OutKast Edge. And to wrap it all up, I talk about a few names from my own personal list. Tune in to this episode to learn how slept-on trends can become popular and how artists can sustain their unique edge to succeed! Episode Highlights [01:32] About OutKast [03:43] The OutKast Edge theory [04:40] Create content for like-minded outsiders [05:07] Build an audience on independent platforms  [05:45] Play the long game: persevere and push through [06:17] Who else has the OutKast Edge [11:11] The OutKast Edge evolves with phases of technology [14:00] You can lose your OutKast Edge [16:48] My thoughts on Doja Cat, Anderson .Paak, and The Weeknd [21:54] On Elon Musk’s Tesla and David Portnoy’s Barstool Sports [24:27] Why Frank Ocean is popular but does not have the OutKast Edge [25:48] My personal picks: Ziwe Fumudoh, Griselda, Lil Dicky, and Nadeshot Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Links:  The OutKast Edge Public.com (code: trapital) Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  For the first part of this episode, I do a live reading of an essay that I wrote about the rap duo OutKast and a theory that I’ve named after their journey. I explain how different phases of technology and platforms have played a role in OutKast, Tyler Perry, Issa Rae, and Tyler, the Creator’s trajectories to success. After that, I weigh in on some of my readers’ suggestions for people—in hip-hop and in other industries—who they think have the OutKast Edge. And to wrap it all up, I talk about a few names from my own personal list.

Tune in to this episode to learn how slept-on trends can become popular and how artists can sustain their unique edge to succeed!


Episode Highlights

[01:32] About OutKast

[03:43] The OutKast Edge theory

[04:40] Create content for like-minded outsiders

[05:07] Build an audience on independent platforms 

[05:45] Play the long game: persevere and push through

[06:17] Who else has the OutKast Edge

[11:11] The OutKast Edge evolves with phases of technology

[14:00] You can lose your OutKast Edge

[16:48] My thoughts on Doja Cat, Anderson .Paak, and The Weeknd

[21:54] On Elon Musk’s Tesla and David Portnoy’s Barstool Sports

[24:27] Why Frank Ocean is popular but does not have the OutKast Edge

[25:48] My personal picks: Ziwe Fumudoh, Griselda, Lil Dicky, and Nadeshot


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Links:


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 1753 no A Campaign Breakdown on Tyler, The Creator’s “Call Me If You Get Lost” with Amber Horsburgh https://www.trapital.com/podcast Amber Horsburgh is an artist coach, a music marketer, and the founder of Deep Cuts—a go-to resource for early-stage musicians. And in today’s episode, we talk about Tyler, The Creator and break down his “Call Me If You Get Lost” campaign. We weigh in on his rollout strategy to use alter egos, the brands he has partnered with, and his business model. Amber also shares her thoughts on Tyler’s strengths, what he could improve on, and how present circumstances have posed a challenge for artists. If you are a fan of Tyler, The Creator or just curious about how music campaigns work, this episode is for you! Episode Highlights: [03:28] My thoughts on Tyler and his “Call Me If You Get Lost” album [05:52] How he has changed over time [08:32] 3 ways to stand out as an artist [10:55] About the Tyler Baudelaire persona [14:22] On Tyler’s brand collaborations and his “slow and steady” climb thanks to his fans [19:35] My expectations for Tyler’s campaign [21:02] How the “Call Me If You Get Lost” campaign is visually appealing but lacking in creative activation [29:00] The importance of merch from a fan perspective [31:15] How the pandemic has affected the music industry [34:45] On Tyler’s acceptance of his position in hip-hop Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Amber Horsburgh, @amberhorsburgh, Amber Horsburgh Links: Public.com Call Me If You Get Lost Music Marketing Tips - Amber Horsburgh Deep Cuts Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 27 Aug 2021 08:00:00 -0000 A Campaign Breakdown on Tyler, The Creator’s “Call Me If You Get Lost” with Amber Horsburgh full 83 Dan Runcie Amber Horsburgh is an artist coach, a music marketer, and the founder of Deep Cuts—a go-to resource for early-stage musicians. And in today’s episode, we talk about Tyler, The Creator and break down his “Call Me If You Get Lost” campaign. We weigh in on his rollout strategy to use alter egos, the brands he has partnered with, and his business model. Amber also shares her thoughts on Tyler’s strengths, what he could improve on, and how present circumstances have posed a challenge for artists. If you are a fan of Tyler, The Creator or just curious about how music campaigns work, this episode is for you! Episode Highlights: [03:28] My thoughts on Tyler and his “Call Me If You Get Lost” album [05:52] How he has changed over time [08:32] 3 ways to stand out as an artist [10:55] About the Tyler Baudelaire persona [14:22] On Tyler’s brand collaborations and his “slow and steady” climb thanks to his fans [19:35] My expectations for Tyler’s campaign [21:02] How the “Call Me If You Get Lost” campaign is visually appealing but lacking in creative activation [29:00] The importance of merch from a fan perspective [31:15] How the pandemic has affected the music industry [34:45] On Tyler’s acceptance of his position in hip-hop Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Amber Horsburgh, @amberhorsburgh, Amber Horsburgh Links: Public.com Call Me If You Get Lost Music Marketing Tips - Amber Horsburgh Deep Cuts Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Amber Horsburgh is an artist coach, a music marketer, and the founder of Deep Cuts—a go-to resource for early-stage musicians. And in today’s episode, we talk about Tyler, The Creator and break down his “Call Me If You Get Lost” campaign. We weigh in on his rollout strategy to use alter egos, the brands he has partnered with, and his business model. Amber also shares her thoughts on Tyler’s strengths, what he could improve on, and how present circumstances have posed a challenge for artists.

If you are a fan of Tyler, The Creator or just curious about how music campaigns work, this episode is for you!


Episode Highlights:

[03:28] My thoughts on Tyler and his “Call Me If You Get Lost” album

[05:52] How he has changed over time

[08:32] 3 ways to stand out as an artist

[10:55] About the Tyler Baudelaire persona

[14:22] On Tyler’s brand collaborations and his “slow and steady” climb thanks to his fans

[19:35] My expectations for Tyler’s campaign

[21:02] How the “Call Me If You Get Lost” campaign is visually appealing but lacking in creative activation

[29:00] The importance of merch from a fan perspective

[31:15] How the pandemic has affected the music industry

[34:45] On Tyler’s acceptance of his position in hip-hop


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Amber Horsburgh, @amberhorsburgh, Amber Horsburgh


Links:


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2353 no 24kGoldn on TikTok Success, Investments, and Record Label Deals https://www.trapital.com/podcast 24kGoldn is a chart-topping hip-hop artist and songwriter who was born and raised in San Francisco. In this episode, he talks about the opportunities he has gotten since “Mood” shot to No. 1 on the Billboard Hot 100 in the middle of the pandemic. He shares how he leveraged Tiktok to stay relevant and what innovations he has done with his music. He also dives into his current investments and the business aspect of his brand. Get to know the genius behind the TikTok hit “Mood” and see what other options artists have when it comes to making money. Episode Highlights: [02:32] What it has been like for 24kGoldn since the pandemic began [05:25] The pros and cons of going virtual or working remotely [08:55] How much work went into making “Mood” a hit through TikTok [10:25] About the #BlackTikTokStrike [12:25] The different ways you can get your music heard [18:52] 24kGoldn’s musical inspirations and aspirations [22:00] His investment portfolio [24:42] The opportunities in getting artists to endorse and invest in consumer products [31:28] On playlisting and signing with record labels Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: 24kGoldn, @24kGoldn, 24kGoldn Link: Public.com (Code: trapital) Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 20 Aug 2021 08:00:00 -0000 24kGoldn on TikTok Success, Investments, and Record Label Deals full 82 Dan Runcie 24kGoldn is a chart-topping hip-hop artist and songwriter who was born and raised in San Francisco. In this episode, he talks about the opportunities he has gotten since “Mood” shot to No. 1 on the Billboard Hot 100 in the middle of the pandemic. He shares how he leveraged Tiktok to stay relevant and what innovations he has done with his music. He also dives into his current investments and the business aspect of his brand. Get to know the genius behind the TikTok hit “Mood” and see what other options artists have when it comes to making money. Episode Highlights: [02:32] What it has been like for 24kGoldn since the pandemic began [05:25] The pros and cons of going virtual or working remotely [08:55] How much work went into making “Mood” a hit through TikTok [10:25] About the #BlackTikTokStrike [12:25] The different ways you can get your music heard [18:52] 24kGoldn’s musical inspirations and aspirations [22:00] His investment portfolio [24:42] The opportunities in getting artists to endorse and invest in consumer products [31:28] On playlisting and signing with record labels Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: 24kGoldn, @24kGoldn, 24kGoldn Link: Public.com (Code: trapital) Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  24kGoldn is a chart-topping hip-hop artist and songwriter who was born and raised in San Francisco. In this episode, he talks about the opportunities he has gotten since “Mood” shot to No. 1 on the Billboard Hot 100 in the middle of the pandemic. He shares how he leveraged Tiktok to stay relevant and what innovations he has done with his music. He also dives into his current investments and the business aspect of his brand.

Get to know the genius behind the TikTok hit “Mood” and see what other options artists have when it comes to making money.


Episode Highlights:

[02:32] What it has been like for 24kGoldn since the pandemic began

[05:25] The pros and cons of going virtual or working remotely

[08:55] How much work went into making “Mood” a hit through TikTok

[10:25] About the #BlackTikTokStrike

[12:25] The different ways you can get your music heard

[18:52] 24kGoldn’s musical inspirations and aspirations

[22:00] His investment portfolio

[24:42] The opportunities in getting artists to endorse and invest in consumer products

[31:28] On playlisting and signing with record labels


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: 24kGoldn, @24kGoldn, 24kGoldn

Link: Public.com (Code: trapital)


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2075 no Mike G on Music Festivals, Touring, Young Thug, The Kid LAROI, and Chris Brown https://www.trapital.com/podcast Mike G is a music and touring agent for United Talent Agency (UTA). He joins me on the podcast to share what it has been like for him since COVID broke out, especially the big things he did recently. He talks about The Kid LAROI and Young Thug, the trajectory of their careers, and the projects they’ve worked on. He looks back on how he went from sales rep to full-time booking agent, revealing what it was like to manage Chris Brown. He also weighs in on what music events will be like when the pandemic’s over. Tune in to this episode to get an update on some artists, and see what things will be like for future concerts and tours from an agent’s perspective! Episode Highlights: [00:21] The opportunities that Mike G saw during the pandemic [05:18] The recent trend in tours and concerts [07:00] On working with The Kid LAROI and increasing the demand for him [12:00] About Young Thug and the challenge of getting him to the level where he should be [16:35] What music festival promoters look for in artists [22:13] On rebuilding artists [26:16] About Mike G’s background and why he decided to become an agent [30:00] On managing Chris Brown [34:42] His smooth transition to UTA [38:20] His prediction for music events post-pandemic Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Mike G, @MikeGNitevision Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 13 Aug 2021 08:00:00 -0000 Mike G on Music Festivals, Touring, Young Thug, The Kid LAROI, and Chris Brown full 81 Dan Runcie Mike G is a music and touring agent for United Talent Agency (UTA). He joins me on the podcast to share what it has been like for him since COVID broke out, especially the big things he did recently. He talks about The Kid LAROI and Young Thug, the trajectory of their careers, and the projects they’ve worked on. He looks back on how he went from sales rep to full-time booking agent, revealing what it was like to manage Chris Brown. He also weighs in on what music events will be like when the pandemic’s over. Tune in to this episode to get an update on some artists, and see what things will be like for future concerts and tours from an agent’s perspective! Episode Highlights: [00:21] The opportunities that Mike G saw during the pandemic [05:18] The recent trend in tours and concerts [07:00] On working with The Kid LAROI and increasing the demand for him [12:00] About Young Thug and the challenge of getting him to the level where he should be [16:35] What music festival promoters look for in artists [22:13] On rebuilding artists [26:16] About Mike G’s background and why he decided to become an agent [30:00] On managing Chris Brown [34:42] His smooth transition to UTA [38:20] His prediction for music events post-pandemic Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Mike G, @MikeGNitevision Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Mike G is a music and touring agent for United Talent Agency (UTA). He joins me on the podcast to share what it has been like for him since COVID broke out, especially the big things he did recently. He talks about The Kid LAROI and Young Thug, the trajectory of their careers, and the projects they’ve worked on. He looks back on how he went from sales rep to full-time booking agent, revealing what it was like to manage Chris Brown. He also weighs in on what music events will be like when the pandemic’s over.

Tune in to this episode to get an update on some artists, and see what things will be like for future concerts and tours from an agent’s perspective!


Episode Highlights:

[00:21] The opportunities that Mike G saw during the pandemic

[05:18] The recent trend in tours and concerts

[07:00] On working with The Kid LAROI and increasing the demand for him

[12:00] About Young Thug and the challenge of getting him to the level where he should be

[16:35] What music festival promoters look for in artists

[22:13] On rebuilding artists

[26:16] About Mike G’s background and why he decided to become an agent

[30:00] On managing Chris Brown

[34:42] His smooth transition to UTA

[38:20] His prediction for music events post-pandemic


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Mike G, @MikeGNitevision

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2456 no Anthony Martini on Royalty Exchange, Music Royalties, NFTs, and Managing Lil Dicky and Tyga https://www.trapital.com/podcast Just last March, Anthony Martini became the CEO of Royalty Exchange, a marketplace where buyers and sellers can trade music, rights, and copyright. He explains how royalties can benefit middle and lower-tier creatives in this economy of hit records, highlighting what Royalty Exchange is capable of as a platform. He then talks about the practical applications of NFTs. He also weighs in on what he has learned as a former artist, an artist manager, and the founder of an independent record label. Whether you’re a musician looking for funding or an investor searching for an asset to park your money in, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights [03:50] The opportunities in selling music catalogs and publishing [06:48] How Royalty Exchange has grown and what it has to offer as a platform compared to other investment funds [10:08] About multiples, the “dollar age” metric, and why music royalties are attractive assets [14:40] Anthony’s insights on hip-hop from a streaming perspective [17:18] The advantages of getting into the NFT market and the importance of really collaborating with artists [22:32] On the legal feud between Roc-A-Fella co-founders Damon Dash and Jay-Z [29:55] On setting up deals with digital distributors, artists, Youtubers, and Twitch streamers [36:36] What it was like to work with big record labels, manage Lil Dicky and Tyga, and founding Commission Records Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Anthony Martini, @realantmoney, Royalty Exchange Links: Pico Hipgnosis Roundhill Investments Robinhood Money Mu on Spotify CJ So Cool Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 06 Aug 2021 08:00:00 -0000 Anthony Martini on Royalty Exchange, Music Royalties, NFTs, and Managing Lil Dicky and Tyga full 80 Dan Runcie Just last March, Anthony Martini became the CEO of Royalty Exchange, a marketplace where buyers and sellers can trade music, rights, and copyright. He explains how royalties can benefit middle and lower-tier creatives in this economy of hit records, highlighting what Royalty Exchange is capable of as a platform. He then talks about the practical applications of NFTs. He also weighs in on what he has learned as a former artist, an artist manager, and the founder of an independent record label. Whether you’re a musician looking for funding or an investor searching for an asset to park your money in, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights [03:50] The opportunities in selling music catalogs and publishing [06:48] How Royalty Exchange has grown and what it has to offer as a platform compared to other investment funds [10:08] About multiples, the “dollar age” metric, and why music royalties are attractive assets [14:40] Anthony’s insights on hip-hop from a streaming perspective [17:18] The advantages of getting into the NFT market and the importance of really collaborating with artists [22:32] On the legal feud between Roc-A-Fella co-founders Damon Dash and Jay-Z [29:55] On setting up deals with digital distributors, artists, Youtubers, and Twitch streamers [36:36] What it was like to work with big record labels, manage Lil Dicky and Tyga, and founding Commission Records Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Anthony Martini, @realantmoney, Royalty Exchange Links: Pico Hipgnosis Roundhill Investments Robinhood Money Mu on Spotify CJ So Cool Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Just last March, Anthony Martini became the CEO of Royalty Exchange, a marketplace where buyers and sellers can trade music, rights, and copyright. He explains how royalties can benefit middle and lower-tier creatives in this economy of hit records, highlighting what Royalty Exchange is capable of as a platform. He then talks about the practical applications of NFTs. He also weighs in on what he has learned as a former artist, an artist manager, and the founder of an independent record label.

Whether you’re a musician looking for funding or an investor searching for an asset to park your money in, this is the episode for you!


Episode Highlights

[03:50] The opportunities in selling music catalogs and publishing

[06:48] How Royalty Exchange has grown and what it has to offer as a platform compared to other investment funds

[10:08] About multiples, the “dollar age” metric, and why music royalties are attractive assets

[14:40] Anthony’s insights on hip-hop from a streaming perspective

[17:18] The advantages of getting into the NFT market and the importance of really collaborating with artists

[22:32] On the legal feud between Roc-A-Fella co-founders Damon Dash and Jay-Z

[29:55] On setting up deals with digital distributors, artists, Youtubers, and Twitch streamers

[36:36] What it was like to work with big record labels, manage Lil Dicky and Tyga, and founding Commission Records


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS


Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Guest: Anthony Martini, @realantmoney, Royalty Exchange


Links:


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2789 no Steve Rifkind on Loud Records, Spring Sound, Wu-Tang Clan, and the Family Business https://www.trapital.com/podcast Steve Rifkind is the founder of Loud Records, SRC Records, and his new label Spring Sound. Loud Records, which celebrated its 25th anniversary last January 2020, is one of the most influential record labels in hip-hop with artists like Wu Tang Clan, Twista, and Akon. In this episode, Steve shares what it was like when he first started out in the industry, walking us through the changes he has seen since then until now. He also talks about Loud Record’s anniversary event and his close relationship with DMX. Reminisce about the ‘90s and early 2000s, and see things from the perspective of a legend in the music industry. Episode Highlights: [ 03:28 ] What the music industry was like 40 years ago compared to now [ 07:52 ] On Akon’s popularity and the rise of Youtube [ 12:38 ] On leveraging joint ventures with artists [ 17:28 ] What Steve is capable of offering and doing as a record label executive [ 19:58 ] Why the emergence of CDs led to a downshift in the industry [ 23:35 ] On the brand and identity of Steve’s artists [ 28:15 ] The importance of music in culture [ 30:25 ] How Steve is preparing his daughter for the role of CEO [ 32:02 ] Loud Records’ 25-anniversary event [ 33:58 ] On Steve’s close relationship with DMX Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Steve Rifkind, @steverifkind, Spring Sound  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:00:00 -0000 Steve Rifkind on Loud Records, Spring Sound, Wu-Tang Clan, and the Family Business full 79 Dan Runcie Steve Rifkind is the founder of Loud Records, SRC Records, and his new label Spring Sound. Loud Records, which celebrated its 25th anniversary last January 2020, is one of the most influential record labels in hip-hop with artists like Wu Tang Clan, Twista, and Akon. In this episode, Steve shares what it was like when he first started out in the industry, walking us through the changes he has seen since then until now. He also talks about Loud Record’s anniversary event and his close relationship with DMX. Reminisce about the ‘90s and early 2000s, and see things from the perspective of a legend in the music industry. Episode Highlights: [ 03:28 ] What the music industry was like 40 years ago compared to now [ 07:52 ] On Akon’s popularity and the rise of Youtube [ 12:38 ] On leveraging joint ventures with artists [ 17:28 ] What Steve is capable of offering and doing as a record label executive [ 19:58 ] Why the emergence of CDs led to a downshift in the industry [ 23:35 ] On the brand and identity of Steve’s artists [ 28:15 ] The importance of music in culture [ 30:25 ] How Steve is preparing his daughter for the role of CEO [ 32:02 ] Loud Records’ 25-anniversary event [ 33:58 ] On Steve’s close relationship with DMX Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Steve Rifkind, @steverifkind, Spring Sound  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Steve Rifkind is the founder of Loud Records, SRC Records, and his new label Spring Sound. Loud Records, which celebrated its 25th anniversary last January 2020, is one of the most influential record labels in hip-hop with artists like Wu Tang Clan, Twista, and Akon. In this episode, Steve shares what it was like when he first started out in the industry, walking us through the changes he has seen since then until now. He also talks about Loud Record’s anniversary event and his close relationship with DMX.

Reminisce about the ‘90s and early 2000s, and see things from the perspective of a legend in the music industry.

Episode Highlights:

[ 03:28 ] What the music industry was like 40 years ago compared to now

[ 07:52 ] On Akon’s popularity and the rise of Youtube

[ 12:38 ] On leveraging joint ventures with artists

[ 17:28 ] What Steve is capable of offering and doing as a record label executive

[ 19:58 ] Why the emergence of CDs led to a downshift in the industry

[ 23:35 ] On the brand and identity of Steve’s artists

[ 28:15 ] The importance of music in culture

[ 30:25 ] How Steve is preparing his daughter for the role of CEO

[ 32:02 ] Loud Records’ 25-anniversary event

[ 33:58 ] On Steve’s close relationship with DMX

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Steve Rifkind, @steverifkind, Spring Sound 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2407 no Detavio Samuels on REVOLT, Digital and Cable Strategy, The Crew League, Black-owned Media, and Working with Diddy https://trapital.co/2021/07/21/detavio-samuels-on-revolt-digital-and-cable-strategy-the-crew-league-black-owned-media-and-working-with-diddy Detavio Samuels is the new CEO of REVOLT, a hip-hop-focused media company founded by Sean “Diddy” Combs. In this episode, he talks about the opportunities and challenges that rose when the Black-owned company made a shift toward social justice. He reveals what it’s been like to run a cable network amid the explosion of online content, giving a sneak peek of the exciting things that the company is working on. Detavio also shares how he establishes himself as a leader with Diddy as the chairman. If you work in media, entertainment, music, or in any of the related fields, here’s an interesting episode for you! Episode Highlights: [ 03:08 ] Why Detavio jumped ship from his previous company to Revolt [ 05:50 ] How REVOLT combines hip-hop culture with the Black Lives Matter movement  [ 12:08 ] The challenges of launching a cable network that offers black content [ 17:32 ] On REVOLT’s digital content and most important metrics [ 19:40 ] A preview of “The Crew League” Season 2 and the other projects that Revolt has planned for the rest of the year [ 27:00 ] What Diddy and Combs Enterprises President Tarik Brooks are like as leaders [ 29:55 ] The magic of being in the right place at the right time with the right people [ 34:30 ] REVOLT aims to set a different standard for what already exists [ 38:35 ] On the company’s plans to get into podcasts and the studio business Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Detavio Samuels, @Detavio, REVOLT TV Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 23 Jul 2021 07:00:00 -0000 Detavio Samuels on REVOLT, Digital and Cable Strategy, The Crew League, Black-owned Media, and Working with Diddy full 78 Dan Runcie Detavio Samuels is the new CEO of REVOLT, a hip-hop-focused media company founded by Sean “Diddy” Combs. In this episode, he talks about the opportunities and challenges that rose when the Black-owned company made a shift toward social justice. He... Detavio Samuels is the new CEO of REVOLT, a hip-hop-focused media company founded by Sean “Diddy” Combs. In this episode, he talks about the opportunities and challenges that rose when the Black-owned company made a shift toward social justice. He reveals what it’s been like to run a cable network amid the explosion of online content, giving a sneak peek of the exciting things that the company is working on. Detavio also shares how he establishes himself as a leader with Diddy as the chairman. If you work in media, entertainment, music, or in any of the related fields, here’s an interesting episode for you! Episode Highlights: [ 03:08 ] Why Detavio jumped ship from his previous company to Revolt [ 05:50 ] How REVOLT combines hip-hop culture with the Black Lives Matter movement  [ 12:08 ] The challenges of launching a cable network that offers black content [ 17:32 ] On REVOLT’s digital content and most important metrics [ 19:40 ] A preview of “The Crew League” Season 2 and the other projects that Revolt has planned for the rest of the year [ 27:00 ] What Diddy and Combs Enterprises President Tarik Brooks are like as leaders [ 29:55 ] The magic of being in the right place at the right time with the right people [ 34:30 ] REVOLT aims to set a different standard for what already exists [ 38:35 ] On the company’s plans to get into podcasts and the studio business Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Detavio Samuels, @Detavio, REVOLT TV Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Detavio Samuels is the new CEO of REVOLT, a hip-hop-focused media company founded by Sean “Diddy” Combs. In this episode, he talks about the opportunities and challenges that rose when the Black-owned company made a shift toward social justice. He reveals what it’s been like to run a cable network amid the explosion of online content, giving a sneak peek of the exciting things that the company is working on. Detavio also shares how he establishes himself as a leader with Diddy as the chairman.

If you work in media, entertainment, music, or in any of the related fields, here’s an interesting episode for you!

Episode Highlights:

[ 03:08 ] Why Detavio jumped ship from his previous company to Revolt

[ 05:50 ] How REVOLT combines hip-hop culture with the Black Lives Matter movement 

[ 12:08 ] The challenges of launching a cable network that offers black content

[ 17:32 ] On REVOLT’s digital content and most important metrics

[ 19:40 ] A preview of “The Crew League” Season 2 and the other projects that Revolt has planned for the rest of the year

[ 27:00 ] What Diddy and Combs Enterprises President Tarik Brooks are like as leaders

[ 29:55 ] The magic of being in the right place at the right time with the right people

[ 34:30 ] REVOLT aims to set a different standard for what already exists

[ 38:35 ] On the company’s plans to get into podcasts and the studio business

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Detavio Samuels, @Detavio, REVOLT TV

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2678 no Jamal Henderson on Space Jam, Structuring SpringHill, LeBron James, and the Creator Economy https://trapital.co/2021/07/15/jamal-henderson-on-space-jam-movie-structuring-springhill-lebron-james-and-the-creator-economy Jamal Henderson is the Chief Content Officer of The SpringHill Company, a video-production company created by LeBron James and Maverick Carter. He reveals what it took to get “Space Jam: A New Legacy” off the ground, diving deep into branding partnerships and the musical aspect of the production. He also weighs in on all of the changes that have happened in the entertainment landscape post-pandemic and gives a preview of what’s next for SpringHill. If you’ve ever wondered what it’s like to spearhead projects for an entertainment company and to launch a movie post-pandemic, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: [ 02:08 ] How the pandemic affected the production and release of movies [ 03:12 ] About “Space Jam: A New Legacy” and SpringHill’s brand projects [ 06:27 ] Why the movie is on-brand for LeBron and how it aged well [ 10:45 ] On creating the “Space Jam: A New Legacy” soundtrack [ 14:40 ] How SpringHill came to be what it is today [ 22:55 ] About SpringHill’s venture into the audio side of the entertainment industry and its ongoing efforts to promote diversification [ 29:38 ] On SpringHill’s upcoming projects   Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Jamal Henderson, @jamalhenderson, The SpringHill Company  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 16 Jul 2021 07:00:00 -0000 Jamal Henderson on Space Jam, Structuring SpringHill, LeBron James, and the Creator Economy full 77 Dan Runcie Jamal Henderson is the Chief Content Officer of The SpringHill Company, a video-production company created by LeBron James and Maverick Carter. He reveals what it took to get “Space Jam: A New Legacy” off the ground, diving deep into branding... Jamal Henderson is the Chief Content Officer of The SpringHill Company, a video-production company created by LeBron James and Maverick Carter. He reveals what it took to get “Space Jam: A New Legacy” off the ground, diving deep into branding partnerships and the musical aspect of the production. He also weighs in on all of the changes that have happened in the entertainment landscape post-pandemic and gives a preview of what’s next for SpringHill. If you’ve ever wondered what it’s like to spearhead projects for an entertainment company and to launch a movie post-pandemic, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: [ 02:08 ] How the pandemic affected the production and release of movies [ 03:12 ] About “Space Jam: A New Legacy” and SpringHill’s brand projects [ 06:27 ] Why the movie is on-brand for LeBron and how it aged well [ 10:45 ] On creating the “Space Jam: A New Legacy” soundtrack [ 14:40 ] How SpringHill came to be what it is today [ 22:55 ] About SpringHill’s venture into the audio side of the entertainment industry and its ongoing efforts to promote diversification [ 29:38 ] On SpringHill’s upcoming projects   Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Jamal Henderson, @jamalhenderson, The SpringHill Company  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Jamal Henderson is the Chief Content Officer of The SpringHill Company, a video-production company created by LeBron James and Maverick Carter. He reveals what it took to get “Space Jam: A New Legacy” off the ground, diving deep into branding partnerships and the musical aspect of the production. He also weighs in on all of the changes that have happened in the entertainment landscape post-pandemic and gives a preview of what’s next for SpringHill.

If you’ve ever wondered what it’s like to spearhead projects for an entertainment company and to launch a movie post-pandemic, this is the episode for you!

Episode Highlights:

[ 02:08 ] How the pandemic affected the production and release of movies

[ 03:12 ] About “Space Jam: A New Legacy” and SpringHill’s brand projects

[ 06:27 ] Why the movie is on-brand for LeBron and how it aged well

[ 10:45 ] On creating the “Space Jam: A New Legacy” soundtrack

[ 14:40 ] How SpringHill came to be what it is today

[ 22:55 ] About SpringHill’s venture into the audio side of the entertainment industry and its ongoing efforts to promote diversification

[ 29:38 ] On SpringHill’s upcoming projects

 

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Jamal Henderson, @jamalhenderson, The SpringHill Company 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2142 no Music Business Podcast: Trippie Redd's Manager Charlene Bryant on Hitting Billboard #1 and Launching Riveter Management https://www.musicbusinesspodcast.com/blog/2020/9/2/introducing-the-music-business-podcast-blog-1 Today's episode is a special interview from my friends at the Music Business Podcast! They had a great conversation Founder of Riveter Management and Trippie Redd’s Manager Charlene Bryant. Charlene Bryant was formerly a Digital Account Manager for Sony/RCA Inspiration, who recently ventured out to start her own artist management company, Riveter Management Inc. She is passionate about helping artists and her company motto is to treat every client like a VIP. If you enjoy their episode, leave a comment or a review on what you thought about the episode on Apple Podcasts or on the Music Business Podcast instagram @musicbusinesspodcast. You can also connect with our community on Patreon, MusicBusinessPodcast.com/Community.  -- Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Tue, 13 Jul 2021 13:00:00 -0000 Music Business Podcast: Trippie Redd's Manager Charlene Bryant on Hitting Billboard #1 and Launching Riveter Management full 77 Dan Runcie Today's episode is a special interview from my friends at the Music Business Podcast! They had a great conversation Founder of Riveter Management and Trippie Redd’s Manager Charlene Bryant. Charlene Bryant was formerly a Digital Account Manager for... Today's episode is a special interview from my friends at the Music Business Podcast! They had a great conversation Founder of Riveter Management and Trippie Redd’s Manager Charlene Bryant. Charlene Bryant was formerly a Digital Account Manager for Sony/RCA Inspiration, who recently ventured out to start her own artist management company, Riveter Management Inc. She is passionate about helping artists and her company motto is to treat every client like a VIP. If you enjoy their episode, leave a comment or a review on what you thought about the episode on Apple Podcasts or on the Music Business Podcast instagram @musicbusinesspodcast. You can also connect with our community on Patreon, MusicBusinessPodcast.com/Community.  -- Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Today's episode is a special interview from my friends at the Music Business Podcast!

They had a great conversation Founder of Riveter Management and Trippie Redd’s Manager Charlene Bryant. Charlene Bryant was formerly a Digital Account Manager for Sony/RCA Inspiration, who recently ventured out to start her own artist management company, Riveter Management Inc. She is passionate about helping artists and her company motto is to treat every client like a VIP.

If you enjoy their episode, leave a comment or a review on what you thought about the episode on Apple Podcasts or on the Music Business Podcast instagram @musicbusinesspodcast.

You can also connect with our community on Patreon, MusicBusinessPodcast.com/Community. 

--

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter

]]> 3360 no MixedByAli on EngineEars, TDE's Legacy, and Mixing for Kendrick Lamar and Dr. Dre https://trapital.co/2021/07/07/mixedbyali-on-mixing-music-opening-opportunities-for-others-and-founding-a-startup Derek Ali, better known as MixedByAli, is a 3-time Grammy Award-winning mix engineer and a longtime collaborator with Top Dawg Entertainment. He is also the founder and CEO of EngineEars, a platform for audio engineers to mix music and find projects. He walks us through his music career, the artists who launched him to fame, and the workshops he offered. He also talks about the challenges of launching a startup, how he scaled his business, and the power of niche. If you’re an audio engineer looking to grow your potential or interested in building a startup, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: [ 02:24 ] How Derek’s ringtone business in high school kick-started his interest in music [ 08:05 ] What it was like to work with Kendrick Lamar and Dr. Dre [ 10:10 ] About Derek’s team of engineers [ 10:50 ] On “unlearning” [ 11:42 ] Why and how he started offering workshops [ 16:05 ] On running a small business as a sound engineer and getting the funding to scale EngineEars [ 25:41 ] Lead by example and manage your time in a way that puts yourself first [ 31:22 ] On understanding problems in real time and the importance of having a team Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Derek Ali, @MixedByAli, EngineEars Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 09 Jul 2021 07:00:00 -0000 MixedByAli on EngineEars, TDE's Legacy, and Mixing for Kendrick Lamar and Dr. Dre full 76 Dan Runcie Derek Ali, better known as MixedByAli, is a 3-time Grammy Award-winning mix engineer and a longtime collaborator with Top Dawg Entertainment. He is also the founder and CEO of EngineEars, a platform for audio engineers to mix music and find projects.... Derek Ali, better known as MixedByAli, is a 3-time Grammy Award-winning mix engineer and a longtime collaborator with Top Dawg Entertainment. He is also the founder and CEO of EngineEars, a platform for audio engineers to mix music and find projects. He walks us through his music career, the artists who launched him to fame, and the workshops he offered. He also talks about the challenges of launching a startup, how he scaled his business, and the power of niche. If you’re an audio engineer looking to grow your potential or interested in building a startup, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: [ 02:24 ] How Derek’s ringtone business in high school kick-started his interest in music [ 08:05 ] What it was like to work with Kendrick Lamar and Dr. Dre [ 10:10 ] About Derek’s team of engineers [ 10:50 ] On “unlearning” [ 11:42 ] Why and how he started offering workshops [ 16:05 ] On running a small business as a sound engineer and getting the funding to scale EngineEars [ 25:41 ] Lead by example and manage your time in a way that puts yourself first [ 31:22 ] On understanding problems in real time and the importance of having a team Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Derek Ali, @MixedByAli, EngineEars Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Derek Ali, better known as MixedByAli, is a 3-time Grammy Award-winning mix engineer and a longtime collaborator with Top Dawg Entertainment. He is also the founder and CEO of EngineEars, a platform for audio engineers to mix music and find projects. He walks us through his music career, the artists who launched him to fame, and the workshops he offered. He also talks about the challenges of launching a startup, how he scaled his business, and the power of niche.

If you’re an audio engineer looking to grow your potential or interested in building a startup, this is the episode for you!

Episode Highlights:

[ 02:24 ] How Derek’s ringtone business in high school kick-started his interest in music

[ 08:05 ] What it was like to work with Kendrick Lamar and Dr. Dre

[ 10:10 ] About Derek’s team of engineers

[ 10:50 ] On “unlearning”

[ 11:42 ] Why and how he started offering workshops

[ 16:05 ] On running a small business as a sound engineer and getting the funding to scale EngineEars

[ 25:41 ] Lead by example and manage your time in a way that puts yourself first

[ 31:22 ] On understanding problems in real time and the importance of having a team

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Derek Ali, @MixedByAli, EngineEars

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2365 no Call Me Ace on his Indie Rap Career, Building His Brand, and Still Working Full-Time https://trapital.co/2021/07/01/call-me-ace-on-building-a-brand-new-opportunities-and-vanity-metrics Call Me Ace, hip-hop recording artist who has charted on Billboard, returns to the podcast to talk about his album “Out Of Office”, his participation in the BET AmpliFINd contest, and other things he has accomplished this past year while working a full-time job in tech. He shares his personal approach to making content and engaging with his fan base, High Grade Society. He also gives a sneak peek of a book he is working on. If you’ve ever wondered how people grew and established their creative careers while working a day job, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: [ 02:13 ] How the pandemic affected Call Me Ace [ 03:15 ] About “Out Of Office”  [ 06:26 ] The importance of community and making connections [ 08:50 ] Utilize the right platforms that align with your brand [ 13:38 ] On becoming a Top 10 semi-finalist in “BET AmpliFind” and the opportunities that followed after that [ 23:42 ] Call Me Ace’s partnership with Insider Studios and Ford [ 27:55 ] On text messaging as a platform [ 32:04 ] On sharing knowledge [ 39:00 ] Vanity metrics are not everything Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Call Me Ace, @callmeacelegit, Call Me Ace Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Fri, 02 Jul 2021 07:00:00 -0000 Call Me Ace on his Indie Rap Career, Building His Brand, and Still Working Full-Time full 75 Dan Runcie Call Me Ace, hip-hop recording artist who has charted on Billboard, returns to the podcast to talk about his album “Out Of Office”, his participation in the BET AmpliFINd contest, and other things he has accomplished this past year while working a... Call Me Ace, hip-hop recording artist who has charted on Billboard, returns to the podcast to talk about his album “Out Of Office”, his participation in the BET AmpliFINd contest, and other things he has accomplished this past year while working a full-time job in tech. He shares his personal approach to making content and engaging with his fan base, High Grade Society. He also gives a sneak peek of a book he is working on. If you’ve ever wondered how people grew and established their creative careers while working a day job, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: [ 02:13 ] How the pandemic affected Call Me Ace [ 03:15 ] About “Out Of Office”  [ 06:26 ] The importance of community and making connections [ 08:50 ] Utilize the right platforms that align with your brand [ 13:38 ] On becoming a Top 10 semi-finalist in “BET AmpliFind” and the opportunities that followed after that [ 23:42 ] Call Me Ace’s partnership with Insider Studios and Ford [ 27:55 ] On text messaging as a platform [ 32:04 ] On sharing knowledge [ 39:00 ] Vanity metrics are not everything Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Call Me Ace, @callmeacelegit, Call Me Ace Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  Call Me Ace, hip-hop recording artist who has charted on Billboard, returns to the podcast to talk about his album “Out Of Office”, his participation in the BET AmpliFINd contest, and other things he has accomplished this past year while working a full-time job in tech. He shares his personal approach to making content and engaging with his fan base, High Grade Society. He also gives a sneak peek of a book he is working on.

If you’ve ever wondered how people grew and established their creative careers while working a day job, this is the episode for you!

Episode Highlights:

[ 02:13 ] How the pandemic affected Call Me Ace

[ 03:15 ] About “Out Of Office” 

[ 06:26 ] The importance of community and making connections

[ 08:50 ] Utilize the right platforms that align with your brand

[ 13:38 ] On becoming a Top 10 semi-finalist in “BET AmpliFind” and the opportunities that followed after that

[ 23:42 ] Call Me Ace’s partnership with Insider Studios and Ford

[ 27:55 ] On text messaging as a platform

[ 32:04 ] On sharing knowledge

[ 39:00 ] Vanity metrics are not everything

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Call Me Ace, @callmeacelegit, Call Me Ace

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. 

]]> 2688 no Benjy Grinberg on Rostrum Records, Wiz Khalifa and Mac Miller, and Mental Health https://trapital.co/2021/06/25/benjy-grinberg-on-rostrum-records-wiz-khalifa-and-mac-miller-and-mental-health/ Benjy Grinberg, founder and CEO of Rostrum Records, looks back on his journey—how he left what others might consider a dream job to start his own music label. Rostrum has helped put Pittsburg on the map with artists like Wiz Khalifa and Mac Miller. Benjy reveals what it has been like to work with those two artists, giving us a snapshot of how their careers took off. Tune in until the end to learn about some of the philanthropic things he has done. If you want to know what it’s like to start your own label, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: ( 02:40 ) About Pittsburg’s music scene ( 03:24 ) Benjy’s transition from L.A. Reid’s assistant to independent music producer ( 07:05 ) How he met Wiz Khalifa and their trajectory to success ( 11:40 ) On handling different duties at the same time ( 17:41 ) The challenges of releasing mixtapes on streaming services ( 25:52 ) On doing deals with artists and major labels ( 37:40 ) The importance of giving back and mental health awareness Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Benjy Grinberg, @benjybenjy, Rostrum Records Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Fri, 25 Jun 2021 13:00:00 -0000 Benjy Grinberg on Rostrum Records, Wiz Khalifa and Mac Miller, and Mental Health full 74 Dan Runcie Benjy Grinberg, founder and CEO of Rostrum Records, looks back on his journey—how he left what others might consider a dream job to start his own music label. Rostrum has helped put Pittsburg on the map with artists like Wiz Khalifa and Mac Miller.... Benjy Grinberg, founder and CEO of Rostrum Records, looks back on his journey—how he left what others might consider a dream job to start his own music label. Rostrum has helped put Pittsburg on the map with artists like Wiz Khalifa and Mac Miller. Benjy reveals what it has been like to work with those two artists, giving us a snapshot of how their careers took off. Tune in until the end to learn about some of the philanthropic things he has done. If you want to know what it’s like to start your own label, this is the episode for you! Episode Highlights: ( 02:40 ) About Pittsburg’s music scene ( 03:24 ) Benjy’s transition from L.A. Reid’s assistant to independent music producer ( 07:05 ) How he met Wiz Khalifa and their trajectory to success ( 11:40 ) On handling different duties at the same time ( 17:41 ) The challenges of releasing mixtapes on streaming services ( 25:52 ) On doing deals with artists and major labels ( 37:40 ) The importance of giving back and mental health awareness Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Benjy Grinberg, @benjybenjy, Rostrum Records Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo. Benjy Grinberg, founder and CEO of Rostrum Records, looks back on his journey—how he left what others might consider a dream job to start his own music label. Rostrum has helped put Pittsburg on the map with artists like Wiz Khalifa and Mac Miller. Benjy reveals what it has been like to work with those two artists, giving us a snapshot of how their careers took off. Tune in until the end to learn about some of the philanthropic things he has done.

If you want to know what it’s like to start your own label, this is the episode for you!

Episode Highlights:

( 02:40 ) About Pittsburg’s music scene

( 03:24 ) Benjy’s transition from L.A. Reid’s assistant to independent music producer

( 07:05 ) How he met Wiz Khalifa and their trajectory to success

( 11:40 ) On handling different duties at the same time

( 17:41 ) The challenges of releasing mixtapes on streaming services

( 25:52 ) On doing deals with artists and major labels

( 37:40 ) The importance of giving back and mental health awareness

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Benjy Grinberg, @benjybenjy, Rostrum Records

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.

]]> 2831 no The Major Record Labels All Want Your Attention https://trapital.co/2021/06/21/inside-universal-sony-and-warners-arms-race-for-your-attention/ An audio version of the Trapital essay “Inside Universal, Sony, and Warner’s Arms Race For Your Attention” Streaming, media, and indies have changed the game for the three biggest major record labels. Here’s a full breakdown on where each company is heading. Host: Dan Runcie, trapital.co Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo:  https://trapital.co/newsletter Tue, 22 Jun 2021 23:18:04 -0000 The Major Record Labels All Want Your Attention full 73 Dan Runcie An audio version of the Trapital essay “” Streaming, media, and indies have changed the game for the three biggest major record labels. Here’s a full breakdown on where each company is heading. Host: Dan Runcie,  Trapital is home for the... An audio version of the Trapital essay “Inside Universal, Sony, and Warner’s Arms Race For Your Attention” Streaming, media, and indies have changed the game for the three biggest major record labels. Here’s a full breakdown on where each company is heading. Host: Dan Runcie, trapital.co Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo:  https://trapital.co/newsletter An audio version of the Trapital essay “Inside Universal, Sony, and Warner’s Arms Race For Your Attention”

Streaming, media, and indies have changed the game for the three biggest major record labels. Here’s a full breakdown on where each company is heading.

Host: Dan Runcie, trapital.co

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo:  https://trapital.co/newsletter

]]> 848 no Leron Rogers on Helping Artists Become Moguls, Entertainment Law, and Representing Rick Ross https://trapital.libsyn.com/leron-rogers-on-helping-artists-become-moguls-entertainment-law-and-representing-rick-ross Entertainment attorney Leron Rogers, a partner at Fox Rothschild, came on the pod to talk about rising up the ranks as a lawyer. He has represented Kanye West, Rick Ross, Monique, Migos, Steve Harvey, and the Miami Marlins. His goal is to help artists build their business like a Fortune 500 company. They should establish a board of directors. That message is definitely easier with some artists than others! We also talk about Rick Ross and 50 Cent’s beef, artists wanting to own their masters, and advice he gives to up and coming industry execs. If you want to hear all the hats that music industry attorneys wear, this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Leron Rogers, @leronrogers, foxrothschild.com/leron-e-rogers Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Fri, 18 Jun 2021 16:06:45 -0000 Leron Rogers on Helping Artists Become Moguls, Entertainment Law, and Representing Rick Ross full 72 Dan Runcie Entertainment attorney Leron Rogers, a partner at Fox Rothschild, came on the pod to talk about rising up the ranks as a lawyer. He has represented Kanye West, Rick Ross, Monique, Migos, Steve Harvey, and the Miami Marlins. His goal is to help artists... Entertainment attorney Leron Rogers, a partner at Fox Rothschild, came on the pod to talk about rising up the ranks as a lawyer. He has represented Kanye West, Rick Ross, Monique, Migos, Steve Harvey, and the Miami Marlins. His goal is to help artists build their business like a Fortune 500 company. They should establish a board of directors. That message is definitely easier with some artists than others! We also talk about Rick Ross and 50 Cent’s beef, artists wanting to own their masters, and advice he gives to up and coming industry execs. If you want to hear all the hats that music industry attorneys wear, this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Leron Rogers, @leronrogers, foxrothschild.com/leron-e-rogers Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Entertainment attorney Leron Rogers, a partner at Fox Rothschild, came on the pod to talk about rising up the ranks as a lawyer. He has represented Kanye West, Rick Ross, Monique, Migos, Steve Harvey, and the Miami Marlins. His goal is to help artists build their business like a Fortune 500 company. They should establish a board of directors. That message is definitely easier with some artists than others!

We also talk about Rick Ross and 50 Cent’s beef, artists wanting to own their masters, and advice he gives to up and coming industry execs.

If you want to hear all the hats that music industry attorneys wear, this is the episode for you.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Leron Rogers, @leronrogers, foxrothschild.com/leron-e-rogers


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter

]]> 2474 no Jonnyshipes on Cinematic Music Group, Indie Hip-Hop, and Building the Supreme for Music https://trapital.libsyn.com/jonnyshipes-on-cinematic-music-group-indie-hip-hop-and-building-the-supreme-for-music Cinematic Music Group founder and CEO Jonnyshipes came on the pod to talk about how he’s built Cinematic into an influential entertainment company that other labels are trying to follow. Shipes worked with Smoke DZA, Nipsey Hussle, Joey Badass, and more. In this episode, Shipes breaks down how he partners with major labels, helps artists build their careers, and more. Shipes also loves comedy. He recently signed comedian Druski, who blew up after Drake’s “Laugh Now, Cry Later” video. Druski and Shipes have a few things in the works which he goes more in depth with. If you want to hear about how an indie hip-hop company is run, this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Jonnyshipes, @jonnyshipes, cinematicworldwide.com  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Fri, 04 Jun 2021 16:30:00 -0000 Jonnyshipes on Cinematic Music Group, Indie Hip-Hop, and Building the Supreme for Music full 71 Dan Runcie Cinematic Music Group founder and CEO Jonnyshipes came on the pod to talk about how he’s built Cinematic into an influential entertainment company that other labels are trying to follow. Shipes worked with Smoke DZA, Nipsey Hussle, Joey Badass, and... Cinematic Music Group founder and CEO Jonnyshipes came on the pod to talk about how he’s built Cinematic into an influential entertainment company that other labels are trying to follow. Shipes worked with Smoke DZA, Nipsey Hussle, Joey Badass, and more. In this episode, Shipes breaks down how he partners with major labels, helps artists build their careers, and more. Shipes also loves comedy. He recently signed comedian Druski, who blew up after Drake’s “Laugh Now, Cry Later” video. Druski and Shipes have a few things in the works which he goes more in depth with. If you want to hear about how an indie hip-hop company is run, this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Jonnyshipes, @jonnyshipes, cinematicworldwide.com  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Cinematic Music Group founder and CEO Jonnyshipes came on the pod to talk about how he’s built Cinematic into an influential entertainment company that other labels are trying to follow. Shipes worked with Smoke DZA, Nipsey Hussle, Joey Badass, and more. In this episode, Shipes breaks down how he partners with major labels, helps artists build their careers, and more. Shipes also loves comedy. He recently signed comedian Druski, who blew up after Drake’s “Laugh Now, Cry Later” video. Druski and Shipes have a few things in the works which he goes more in depth with.

If you want to hear about how an indie hip-hop company is run, this is the episode for you.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Jonnyshipes, @jonnyshipes, cinematicworldwide.com 

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter

]]> 2581 no Tarik Brooks, President of Combs Enterprises (2020) https://trapital.co/2020/02/04/tarik-brooks-on-combs-enterprises-diddys-investment-strategy-and-managing-a-portfolio-of-brands/ Combs Enterprises President, Tarik Brooks, came on the Trapital Podcast to talk his role managing the Combs Enterprises portfolio of brands, which includes Ciroc, Bad Boy Entertainment, Revolt, Sean John, AquaHydrate, and more. We talked about how to measure Diddy’s value-add as an investor, Tarik’s experience working for both Diddy and Robert L. Johnson, and why Diddy sought mentorship from Ray Dalio, and more. This episode originally ran on February 4, 2020. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Tarik Brooks, @tarikamin, combsenterprises.com Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Fri, 28 May 2021 17:57:21 -0000 Tarik Brooks, President of Combs Enterprises (2020) full 70 Dan Runcie Combs Enterprises President, Tarik Brooks, came on the Trapital Podcast to talk his role managing the Combs Enterprises portfolio of brands, which includes Ciroc, Bad Boy Entertainment, Revolt, Sean John, AquaHydrate, and more. We talked about how to... Combs Enterprises President, Tarik Brooks, came on the Trapital Podcast to talk his role managing the Combs Enterprises portfolio of brands, which includes Ciroc, Bad Boy Entertainment, Revolt, Sean John, AquaHydrate, and more. We talked about how to measure Diddy’s value-add as an investor, Tarik’s experience working for both Diddy and Robert L. Johnson, and why Diddy sought mentorship from Ray Dalio, and more. This episode originally ran on February 4, 2020. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Tarik Brooks, @tarikamin, combsenterprises.com Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Combs Enterprises President, Tarik Brooks, came on the Trapital Podcast to talk his role managing the Combs Enterprises portfolio of brands, which includes Ciroc, Bad Boy Entertainment, Revolt, Sean John, AquaHydrate, and more.

We talked about how to measure Diddy’s value-add as an investor, Tarik’s experience working for both Diddy and Robert L. Johnson, and why Diddy sought mentorship from Ray Dalio, and more.

This episode originally ran on February 4, 2020.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Tarik Brooks, @tarikamin, combsenterprises.com

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter

]]> 2691 no Tracy Chan on Twitch Music, Helping Artists Monetize, and the Creator Economy https://trapital.co/2021/05/21/tracy-chan-on-twitch-music-helping-artists-monetize-and-the-creator-economy/ Twitch’s VP Head of Music, Tracy Chan, came on the podcast to talk about how artists on Twitch are making money. The number of artists making $25,000 on Twitch has grown 16x since the pandemic started. For those making $50,000 or more, the median viewership is 183 fans. That’s wild! We talk about how artists use the platform, gaming culture’s influence, and where the creator economy is heading. Tracy joined Twitch in 2020. He left Spotify where he launched Spotify for Artists, and worked at YouTube before that to help launch its creator platform. Tracy has seen the creator economy at every stage. If you’re interested in this topic, this is the podcast for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Tracy Chan, @tracypchan, twitch.tv/music Link: Twitch’s Rockonomics - a case study on how musicians make money on the platform Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Fri, 21 May 2021 15:33:43 -0000 Tracy Chan on Twitch Music, Helping Artists Monetize, and the Creator Economy full 68 Dan Runcie Twitch’s VP Head of Music, Tracy Chan, came on the podcast to talk about how artists on Twitch are making money. The number of artists making $25,000 on Twitch has grown 16x since the pandemic started. For those making $50,000 or more, the median... Twitch’s VP Head of Music, Tracy Chan, came on the podcast to talk about how artists on Twitch are making money. The number of artists making $25,000 on Twitch has grown 16x since the pandemic started. For those making $50,000 or more, the median viewership is 183 fans. That’s wild! We talk about how artists use the platform, gaming culture’s influence, and where the creator economy is heading. Tracy joined Twitch in 2020. He left Spotify where he launched Spotify for Artists, and worked at YouTube before that to help launch its creator platform. Tracy has seen the creator economy at every stage. If you’re interested in this topic, this is the podcast for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Tracy Chan, @tracypchan, twitch.tv/music Link: Twitch’s Rockonomics - a case study on how musicians make money on the platform Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Twitch’s VP Head of Music, Tracy Chan, came on the podcast to talk about how artists on Twitch are making money. The number of artists making $25,000 on Twitch has grown 16x since the pandemic started. For those making $50,000 or more, the median viewership is 183 fans. That’s wild! We talk about how artists use the platform, gaming culture’s influence, and where the creator economy is heading.

Tracy joined Twitch in 2020. He left Spotify where he launched Spotify for Artists, and worked at YouTube before that to help launch its creator platform. Tracy has seen the creator economy at every stage. If you’re interested in this topic, this is the podcast for you.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Tracy Chan, @tracypchan, twitch.tv/music

Link: Twitch’s Rockonomics - a case study on how musicians make money on the platform

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter

]]> 2326 no James Lindsay on Rap Snacks, BossUp Bank, Why Distribution Matters, and Managing Meek Mill https://trapital.co/2021/05/14/james-lindsay-on-rap-snacks-boss-up-bank-why-distribution-matters-and-managing-meek-mill/ Rap Snacks founder and CEO James Lindsay came on the podcast to talk about his rise in the consumer packaged goods industry. Rap Snacks launched in 1994 and has partnered with artists like Migos, Cardi B, Trina, and Fabolous to sell snack chips. We talk about how Rap Snacks landed distribution space in Walmart, and how to navigate the snack food industry. We also talked about BossUp Bank, the new bank he launched with Master P to reach underserved communities. Lindsay also co-managed Meek Mill, so we talked about his experience there, and some recent advice he gave Meek about Dogecoin! Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: James Lindsay, @askfly1, rapsnacks.net Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Fri, 14 May 2021 17:23:09 -0000 James Lindsay on Rap Snacks, BossUp Bank, Why Distribution Matters, and Managing Meek Mill full 68 Dan Runcie Rap Snacks founder and CEO James Lindsay came on the podcast to talk about his rise in the consumer packaged goods industry. Rap Snacks launched in 1994 and has partnered with artists like Migos, Cardi B, Trina, and Fabolous to sell snack chips. We... Rap Snacks founder and CEO James Lindsay came on the podcast to talk about his rise in the consumer packaged goods industry. Rap Snacks launched in 1994 and has partnered with artists like Migos, Cardi B, Trina, and Fabolous to sell snack chips. We talk about how Rap Snacks landed distribution space in Walmart, and how to navigate the snack food industry. We also talked about BossUp Bank, the new bank he launched with Master P to reach underserved communities. Lindsay also co-managed Meek Mill, so we talked about his experience there, and some recent advice he gave Meek about Dogecoin! Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: James Lindsay, @askfly1, rapsnacks.net Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Rap Snacks founder and CEO James Lindsay came on the podcast to talk about his rise in the consumer packaged goods industry. Rap Snacks launched in 1994 and has partnered with artists like Migos, Cardi B, Trina, and Fabolous to sell snack chips.

We talk about how Rap Snacks landed distribution space in Walmart, and how to navigate the snack food industry. We also talked about BossUp Bank, the new bank he launched with Master P to reach underserved communities.

Lindsay also co-managed Meek Mill, so we talked about his experience there, and some recent advice he gave Meek about Dogecoin!

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: James Lindsay, @askfly1, rapsnacks.net

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter

]]> 1921 no Trapital Mailbag! Hip-Hop’s Streaming Popularity, Rap Battle Leagues, Cancel Culture, Women Music Execs, and Record Labels https://trapital.libsyn.com/trapital-mailbag-hip-hops-streaming-popularity-rap-battle-leagues-cancel-culture-women-music-execs-and-record-labels I answered a bunch of questions from Trapital readers and listeners! Monetization in hip-hop vs other genres, rap battle leagues, Square’s Tidal acquisition, women in the music industry, cancel culture, record labels, and tech funding announcements that look like music festival lineups! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Fri, 07 May 2021 15:43:09 -0000 Trapital Mailbag! Hip-Hop’s Streaming Popularity, Rap Battle Leagues, Cancel Culture, Women Music Execs, and Record Labels full 67 Dan Runcie I answered a bunch of questions from Trapital readers and listeners! Monetization in hip-hop vs other genres, rap battle leagues, Square’s Tidal acquisition, women in the music industry, cancel culture, record labels, and tech funding announcements... I answered a bunch of questions from Trapital readers and listeners! Monetization in hip-hop vs other genres, rap battle leagues, Square’s Tidal acquisition, women in the music industry, cancel culture, record labels, and tech funding announcements that look like music festival lineups! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter I answered a bunch of questions from Trapital readers and listeners! Monetization in hip-hop vs other genres, rap battle leagues, Square’s Tidal acquisition, women in the music industry, cancel culture, record labels, and tech funding announcements that look like music festival lineups!

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter

]]> 1616 no Brandon Pankey on Launching the APEX Video Network, Live Music’s Return, and Educating the Next Generation https://trapital.co/2021/04/30/brandon-pankey-on-launching-the-apex-video-network-live-musics-return-and-educating-the-next-generation/ Live Nation Urban’s VP of Business Development & Operations, Brandon Pankey, joined to talk about the post-pandemic return of concerts and music festivals. He recently launched APEX, an advertising video on demand streaming service that will be music-centric. We talk about why he launched it and how he plans to give artists an opportunity to tell their stories. We finished our conversation by talking about the community and education-related work that Brandon has done, and why we have to let the next generation know about the opportunities that are out there! Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Brandon Pankey, @brandon_pankey, watchapex.com Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Fri, 30 Apr 2021 16:28:59 -0000 Brandon Pankey on Launching the APEX Video Network, Live Music’s Return, and Educating the Next Generation full 66 Dan Runcie Live Nation Urban’s VP of Business Development & Operations, Brandon Pankey, joined to talk about the post-pandemic return of concerts and music festivals. He recently launched APEX, an advertising video on demand streaming service that will be... Live Nation Urban’s VP of Business Development & Operations, Brandon Pankey, joined to talk about the post-pandemic return of concerts and music festivals. He recently launched APEX, an advertising video on demand streaming service that will be music-centric. We talk about why he launched it and how he plans to give artists an opportunity to tell their stories. We finished our conversation by talking about the community and education-related work that Brandon has done, and why we have to let the next generation know about the opportunities that are out there! Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Brandon Pankey, @brandon_pankey, watchapex.com Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Live Nation Urban’s VP of Business Development & Operations, Brandon Pankey, joined to talk about the post-pandemic return of concerts and music festivals. He recently launched APEX, an advertising video on demand streaming service that will be music-centric. We talk about why he launched it and how he plans to give artists an opportunity to tell their stories. We finished our conversation by talking about the community and education-related work that Brandon has done, and why we have to let the next generation know about the opportunities that are out there!

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Brandon Pankey, @brandon_pankey, watchapex.com


Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter

]]> 3047 no Shawn Prez on Bad Boy, Black Rob, and PowerMoves Inc. (2020) https://trapital.co/2020/04/07/shawn-prez-on-the-bad-boy-street-team-grassroots-marketing-in-hip-hop-and-starting-the-global-spin-awards/ Music executive Shawn Prez came on the pod to talk about his days as Bad Boy’s VP of Marketing, what set Bad Boy’s Street Team apart, breaking hit records, starting the Ciroc Boyz, his work at Power Moves Inc., and why he decided to launch an award shows to recognize DJs. This episode was originally published on April 7, 2020. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Shawn Prez, @powermovesprez, powermovesprez.com Link:  Ciroc Boyz – Power Moves Inc. Black Rob – “Whoa” Global Spin Awards Power Moves with Shawn Prez – YouTube Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:34:48 -0000 Shawn Prez on Bad Boy, Black Rob, and PowerMoves Inc. (2020) full 65 Dan Runcie Music executive Shawn Prez came on the pod to talk about his days as Bad Boy’s VP of Marketing, what set Bad Boy’s Street Team apart, breaking hit records, starting the Ciroc Boyz, his work at Power Moves Inc., and why he decided to launch an... Music executive Shawn Prez came on the pod to talk about his days as Bad Boy’s VP of Marketing, what set Bad Boy’s Street Team apart, breaking hit records, starting the Ciroc Boyz, his work at Power Moves Inc., and why he decided to launch an award shows to recognize DJs. This episode was originally published on April 7, 2020. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Shawn Prez, @powermovesprez, powermovesprez.com Link:  Ciroc Boyz – Power Moves Inc. Black Rob – “Whoa” Global Spin Awards Power Moves with Shawn Prez – YouTube Music executive Shawn Prez came on the pod to talk about his days as Bad Boy’s VP of Marketing, what set Bad Boy’s Street Team apart, breaking hit records, starting the Ciroc Boyz, his work at Power Moves Inc., and why he decided to launch an award shows to recognize DJs.

This episode was originally published on April 7, 2020.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co
Guest: Shawn Prez, @powermovesprez, powermovesprez.com

Link: 

]]> 2835 no BrandMan Sean on Music Marketing, Common Mistakes Artists Make, and Working with 24KGoldn https://trapital.co/2021/04/16/brandman-sean-on-music-marketing-common-mistakes-artists-make-and-working-with-24kgoldn/ Music marketer BrandMan Sean (Sean Taylor) joined to talk about how he built the BrandMan Network, which recently crossed 100,000 YouTube subscribers! He’s been a go-to source of insights for rising hip-hop artists on how to build their brands, use social media, and focus on what matters most. In this episode, Sean breaks down how he keeps up with the changes in the landscape, how artists beat those with 2-3x their budget, and his Contrabrand Agency. If you’re interested in the latest best practices on music marketing, this episode is for you! Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: BrandMan Sean, @brandmansean, BrandMan Network YouTube Channel Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:28:22 -0000 BrandMan Sean on Music Marketing, Common Mistakes Artists Make, and Working with 24KGoldn full 64 Dan Runcie Music marketer BrandMan Sean (Sean Taylor) joined to talk about how he built the BrandMan Network, which recently crossed 100,000 YouTube subscribers! He’s been a go-to source of insights for rising hip-hop artists on how to build their brands, use... Music marketer BrandMan Sean (Sean Taylor) joined to talk about how he built the BrandMan Network, which recently crossed 100,000 YouTube subscribers! He’s been a go-to source of insights for rising hip-hop artists on how to build their brands, use social media, and focus on what matters most. In this episode, Sean breaks down how he keeps up with the changes in the landscape, how artists beat those with 2-3x their budget, and his Contrabrand Agency. If you’re interested in the latest best practices on music marketing, this episode is for you! Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: BrandMan Sean, @brandmansean, BrandMan Network YouTube Channel Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter Music marketer BrandMan Sean (Sean Taylor) joined to talk about how he built the BrandMan Network, which recently crossed 100,000 YouTube subscribers! He’s been a go-to source of insights for rising hip-hop artists on how to build their brands, use social media, and focus on what matters most.

In this episode, Sean breaks down how he keeps up with the changes in the landscape, how artists beat those with 2-3x their budget, and his Contrabrand Agency.

If you’re interested in the latest best practices on music marketing, this episode is for you!

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: BrandMan Sean, @brandmansean, BrandMan Network YouTube Channel

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo.  trapital.co/newsletter

]]> 2359 no The "Will and Jada" Playbook https://trapital.co/2021/04/05/how-will-and-jada-pinkett-smith-built-a-content-and-commerce-powerhouse/ An audio version of the Trapital essay “How Will and Jada Pinkett Smith Built a Content and Commerce Powerhouse” The star couple regained Hollywood success by letting fans into their once-private lives and building a media-driven commerce flywheel with Westbrook Inc. Host: Dan Runcie, trapital.co Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo:  trapital.co/newsletter Fri, 09 Apr 2021 16:18:19 -0000 The "Will and Jada" Playbook full 63 Dan Runcie An audio version of the Trapital essay The star couple regained Hollywood success by letting fans into their once-private lives and building a media-driven commerce flywheel with Westbrook Inc. Host: Dan Runcie,  Trapital is home for the... An audio version of the Trapital essay “How Will and Jada Pinkett Smith Built a Content and Commerce Powerhouse” The star couple regained Hollywood success by letting fans into their once-private lives and building a media-driven commerce flywheel with Westbrook Inc. Host: Dan Runcie, trapital.co Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo:  trapital.co/newsletter An audio version of the Trapital essay “How Will and Jada Pinkett Smith Built a Content and Commerce Powerhouse”

The star couple regained Hollywood success by letting fans into their once-private lives and building a media-driven commerce flywheel with Westbrook Inc.

Host: Dan Runcie, trapital.co

Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop’s biggest players by reading Trapital’s free weekly memo:  trapital.co/newsletter

]]> 1179 no Brian “Z” Zisook on DJBooth’s Run, Major Record Labels, Indie Artists, and Audiomack’s Partnerships https://trapital.co/2021/04/02/brain-z-zisook-on-djbooths-run-major-record-labels-indie-artists-and-audiomacks-partnerships/ DJBooth’s Editor-In-Chief and VP of Content Operations and Artist Services at Audiomack, Brian “Z” Zisook, came on the pod to talk about DJBooth’s 18th anniversary (!) and how it stayed strong over time. We also talked about the role that major record labels serve, the potential for indie artists, TikTok’s influence, the streaming era, classic rap albums, short releases, and more. At the end, we talked about Audiomack World and the company’s new partnerships with DistroKid. If you want an honest take on where the music industry is heading, this is the episode for you! Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Brian “Z” Zisook, @djboothEIC, audiomack.com/world Fri, 02 Apr 2021 16:36:57 -0000 Brian “Z” Zisook on DJBooth’s Run, Major Record Labels, Indie Artists, and Audiomack’s Partnerships full 62 Dan Runcie DJBooth’s Editor-In-Chief and VP of Content Operations and Artist Services at Audiomack, Brian “Z” Zisook, came on the pod to talk about DJBooth’s 18th anniversary (!) and how it stayed strong over time. We also talked about the role that... DJBooth’s Editor-In-Chief and VP of Content Operations and Artist Services at Audiomack, Brian “Z” Zisook, came on the pod to talk about DJBooth’s 18th anniversary (!) and how it stayed strong over time. We also talked about the role that major record labels serve, the potential for indie artists, TikTok’s influence, the streaming era, classic rap albums, short releases, and more. At the end, we talked about Audiomack World and the company’s new partnerships with DistroKid. If you want an honest take on where the music industry is heading, this is the episode for you! Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Brian “Z” Zisook, @djboothEIC, audiomack.com/world DJBooth’s Editor-In-Chief and VP of Content Operations and Artist Services at Audiomack, Brian “Z” Zisook, came on the pod to talk about DJBooth’s 18th anniversary (!) and how it stayed strong over time. We also talked about the role that major record labels serve, the potential for indie artists, TikTok’s influence, the streaming era, classic rap albums, short releases, and more. At the end, we talked about Audiomack World and the company’s new partnerships with DistroKid.

If you want an honest take on where the music industry is heading, this is the episode for you!

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Brian “Z” Zisook, @djboothEIC, audiomack.com/world

]]> 3131 no Dame Ritter on When “Ownership” Goes Too Far, Myths about Streaming and Touring, and Managing Comedians https://trapital.co/2021/03/25/dame-ritter-on-when-ownership-goes-too-far-myths-about-streaming-and-touring-and-managing-comedians/ Music Entrepreneur Club founder Dame Ritter came back on the pod to help me break down four music industry myths: artists need to own everything. Ownership! I can’t make money on streaming NFTs will save me I’ll make all my money on tour All of these takes need nuance, and there’s no better person to talk to than Dame. He ran Funk Volume, a former independent record label that hit $4M in sales in its first four years. On the episode we also talked about the comedians he manages, Bigg Jah and Minks, and the difference between artists and comics. If you’ve been hearing a lot about ownership, music business models, and want more context, this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Dame Ritter, @Dame_MEC Links: Music Entrepreneur Club Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Thu, 25 Mar 2021 15:41:02 -0000 Dame Ritter on When “Ownership” Goes Too Far, Myths about Streaming and Touring, and Managing Comedians full 61 Dan Runcie Music Entrepreneur Club founder Dame Ritter came back on the pod to help me break down four music industry myths: artists need to own everything. Ownership! I can’t make money on streaming NFTs will save me I’ll make all my money on tour All of... Music Entrepreneur Club founder Dame Ritter came back on the pod to help me break down four music industry myths: artists need to own everything. Ownership! I can’t make money on streaming NFTs will save me I’ll make all my money on tour All of these takes need nuance, and there’s no better person to talk to than Dame. He ran Funk Volume, a former independent record label that hit $4M in sales in its first four years. On the episode we also talked about the comedians he manages, Bigg Jah and Minks, and the difference between artists and comics. If you’ve been hearing a lot about ownership, music business models, and want more context, this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Dame Ritter, @Dame_MEC Links: Music Entrepreneur Club Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Music Entrepreneur Club founder Dame Ritter came back on the pod to help me break down four music industry myths:

  • artists need to own everything. Ownership!
  • I can’t make money on streaming
  • NFTs will save me
  • I’ll make all my money on tour

All of these takes need nuance, and there’s no better person to talk to than Dame. He ran Funk Volume, a former independent record label that hit $4M in sales in its first four years. On the episode we also talked about the comedians he manages, Bigg Jah and Minks, and the difference between artists and comics.

If you’ve been hearing a lot about ownership, music business models, and want more context, this is the episode for you.


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Dame Ritter, @Dame_MEC

Links: Music Entrepreneur Club

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2774 no Ibrahim "Ib" Hamad, Dreamville President (2020) https://trapital.libsyn.com/ibrahim-ib-hamad-dreamville-president-2020 Dreamville co-founder and President, and J. Cole’s manager Ibrahim Hamad came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how him and J. Cole started Dreamville and how it became what it is today. Ib also broke down what changed for Dreamville in 2014, the impact that the Dollar & a Dream tour had on J. Cole’s career, establishing the Dreamville brand beyond J. Cole, and why the Dreamville Fest has nine lives. This episode was originally published in April 14, 2020 Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Ibrahim Hamad, @KingOfQueenz, dreamville.com Link: J. Cole is Still Making Millions From a $1 Million Concert - Trapital Dreamville Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/newsletter Thu, 18 Mar 2021 17:20:52 -0000 Ibrahim "Ib" Hamad, Dreamville President (2020) full 61 Dan Runcie Dreamville co-founder and President, and J. Cole’s manager Ibrahim Hamad came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how him and J. Cole started Dreamville and how it became what it is today. Ib also broke down what changed for Dreamville in 2014,... Dreamville co-founder and President, and J. Cole’s manager Ibrahim Hamad came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how him and J. Cole started Dreamville and how it became what it is today. Ib also broke down what changed for Dreamville in 2014, the impact that the Dollar & a Dream tour had on J. Cole’s career, establishing the Dreamville brand beyond J. Cole, and why the Dreamville Fest has nine lives. This episode was originally published in April 14, 2020 Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Ibrahim Hamad, @KingOfQueenz, dreamville.com Link: J. Cole is Still Making Millions From a $1 Million Concert - Trapital Dreamville Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/newsletter Dreamville co-founder and President, and J. Cole’s manager Ibrahim Hamad came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how him and J. Cole started Dreamville and how it became what it is today. Ib also broke down what changed for Dreamville in 2014, the impact that the Dollar & a Dream tour had on J. Cole’s career, establishing the Dreamville brand beyond J. Cole, and why the Dreamville Fest has nine lives.

This episode was originally published in April 14, 2020

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Ibrahim Hamad, @KingOfQueenz, dreamville.com

Link: J. Cole is Still Making Millions From a $1 Million Concert - Trapital

Dreamville Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business.

Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/newsletter

]]> 2749 no Micah Johnson on Selling $1M Worth of NFTs in 1 Minute, Transitioning from MLB to Fine Art, and Getting More Black Collectors Involved https://trapital.libsyn.com/micah-johnson-on-selling-1m-worth-of-nfts-in-1-minute-transitioning-from-mlb-to-fine-art-and-getting-more-black-collectors-involved The artist Micah Johnson came on the pod to talk about his rise in the art world. On February 21, he introduced the world to Aku: The Moon God, his fictional character that was born from a question, “Can astronauts be Black?” Aku was released as an NFT that resulted in $1 million worth of sales in 1 minute and $2 million total in 28 hours! On the podcast, we talk about how Micah got support for Aku’s launch, why NFTs are powerful for his work, his future plans for Aku, and more. Micah was also a former Major League Baseball player, so we talked about his transition from MLB to fine art. If you’ve been hearing a lot about NFTs and want to hear how it works from an artist themself, this is the podcast for you! Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Micah Johnson, @Micah_Johnson3, linktr.ee/Micahart Links: Aku | Micah Johnson’s character to inspire kids to dream without limits Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Thu, 11 Mar 2021 15:56:04 -0000 Micah Johnson on Selling $1M Worth of NFTs in 1 Minute, Transitioning from MLB to Fine Art, and Getting More Black Collectors Involved full 60 Dan Runcie The artist Micah Johnson came on the pod to talk about his rise in the art world. On February 21, he introduced the world to Aku: The Moon God, his fictional character that was born from a question, “Can astronauts be Black?” Aku was released as... The artist Micah Johnson came on the pod to talk about his rise in the art world. On February 21, he introduced the world to Aku: The Moon God, his fictional character that was born from a question, “Can astronauts be Black?” Aku was released as an NFT that resulted in $1 million worth of sales in 1 minute and $2 million total in 28 hours! On the podcast, we talk about how Micah got support for Aku’s launch, why NFTs are powerful for his work, his future plans for Aku, and more. Micah was also a former Major League Baseball player, so we talked about his transition from MLB to fine art. If you’ve been hearing a lot about NFTs and want to hear how it works from an artist themself, this is the podcast for you! Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Micah Johnson, @Micah_Johnson3, linktr.ee/Micahart Links: Aku | Micah Johnson’s character to inspire kids to dream without limits Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co The artist Micah Johnson came on the pod to talk about his rise in the art world. On February 21, he introduced the world to Aku: The Moon God, his fictional character that was born from a question, “Can astronauts be Black?”

Aku was released as an NFT that resulted in $1 million worth of sales in 1 minute and $2 million total in 28 hours! On the podcast, we talk about how Micah got support for Aku’s launch, why NFTs are powerful for his work, his future plans for Aku, and more. Micah was also a former Major League Baseball player, so we talked about his transition from MLB to fine art.

If you’ve been hearing a lot about NFTs and want to hear how it works from an artist themself, this is the podcast for you!

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Micah Johnson, @Micah_Johnson3, linktr.ee/Micahart

Links:


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2169 no Mick Batyske on How His DJ Career Led to Brand Deals, Angel Investing, and Startup Advising https://trapital.libsyn.com/mick-batyske-on-how-his-dj-career-led-to-brand-deals-angel-investing-and-startup-advising The multi-hyphenate entrepreneur Mick Batyske (aka DJ MICK) came on the pod to share how he started his career as a DJ (Mick Boogie) for the Cleveland Cavaliers hosting parties for LeBron James and Jay Z. He rebranded as “Mick” to expand his reach in multiple areas, build for the long-term, and leverage his best skillsets. His most important skill is building relationships and gathering audience insights. That mindset equates to how founders think, how marketers sell products, and invests in startups. If you’re interested in how a modern creator operates in today’s landscape, this is the pod for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Mick, @mick, mick.co   Links: The Mick Show podcast - on The MICK Show, he offers a behind-the-scenes look at the lives + businesses of today’s most prominent creatives. With interviews from a variety of musicians, actors, athletes, and CEOs, Mick brings listeners behind the curtain to learn from some of the world’s top culture creators, movers + shakers, and risk-takers. Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Thu, 04 Mar 2021 18:30:49 -0000 Mick Batyske on How His DJ Career Led to Brand Deals, Angel Investing, and Startup Advising full 59 Dan Runcie The multi-hyphenate entrepreneur Mick Batyske (aka DJ MICK) came on the pod to share how he started his career as a DJ (Mick Boogie) for the Cleveland Cavaliers hosting parties for LeBron James and Jay Z. He rebranded as “Mick” to expand his reach... The multi-hyphenate entrepreneur Mick Batyske (aka DJ MICK) came on the pod to share how he started his career as a DJ (Mick Boogie) for the Cleveland Cavaliers hosting parties for LeBron James and Jay Z. He rebranded as “Mick” to expand his reach in multiple areas, build for the long-term, and leverage his best skillsets. His most important skill is building relationships and gathering audience insights. That mindset equates to how founders think, how marketers sell products, and invests in startups. If you’re interested in how a modern creator operates in today’s landscape, this is the pod for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Mick, @mick, mick.co   Links: The Mick Show podcast - on The MICK Show, he offers a behind-the-scenes look at the lives + businesses of today’s most prominent creatives. With interviews from a variety of musicians, actors, athletes, and CEOs, Mick brings listeners behind the curtain to learn from some of the world’s top culture creators, movers + shakers, and risk-takers. Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co The multi-hyphenate entrepreneur Mick Batyske (aka DJ MICK) came on the pod to share how he started his career as a DJ (Mick Boogie) for the Cleveland Cavaliers hosting parties for LeBron James and Jay Z. He rebranded as “Mick” to expand his reach in multiple areas, build for the long-term, and leverage his best skillsets.

His most important skill is building relationships and gathering audience insights. That mindset equates to how founders think, how marketers sell products, and invests in startups.

If you’re interested in how a modern creator operates in today’s landscape, this is the pod for you.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Mick, @mick, mick.co

 

Links:

  • The Mick Show podcast - on The MICK Show, he offers a behind-the-scenes look at the lives + businesses of today’s most prominent creatives.

  • With interviews from a variety of musicians, actors, athletes, and CEOs, Mick brings listeners behind the curtain to learn from some of the world’s top culture creators, movers + shakers, and risk-takers.


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2774 no Jay Z sells 50% of Ace of Spades, TikTok Artist’s Path to Success https://trapital.libsyn.com/jay-z-sells-50-of-ace-of-spades-tiktok-artists-path-to-success Dan shares thoughts on Jay Z selling 50% of Armand de Brignac to LVMH, Cristal, and how it all ties together. After that, Dan gives an audio version of the Trapital essay, How More TikTok Stars Can Succeed in the Music Industry. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Links: Jay Z Puts a Cap on Cristal (2006) New York Times Jay Z and LVMH Pop the Cork in Champagne Tie-Up Wall Street Journal How More TikTok Stars Can Succeed in the Music Industry Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/newsletter Fri, 26 Feb 2021 18:53:38 -0000 Jay Z sells 50% of Ace of Spades, TikTok Artist’s Path to Success full 58 Dan Runcie Dan shares thoughts on Jay Z selling 50% of Armand de Brignac to LVMH, Cristal, and how it all ties together. After that, Dan gives an audio version of the Trapital essay, How More TikTok Stars Can Succeed in the Music Industry. Listen: | | | | ... Dan shares thoughts on Jay Z selling 50% of Armand de Brignac to LVMH, Cristal, and how it all ties together. After that, Dan gives an audio version of the Trapital essay, How More TikTok Stars Can Succeed in the Music Industry. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Links: Jay Z Puts a Cap on Cristal (2006) New York Times Jay Z and LVMH Pop the Cork in Champagne Tie-Up Wall Street Journal How More TikTok Stars Can Succeed in the Music Industry Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/newsletter Dan shares thoughts on Jay Z selling 50% of Armand de Brignac to LVMH, Cristal, and how it all ties together. After that, Dan gives an audio version of the Trapital essay, How More TikTok Stars Can Succeed in the Music Industry.


Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Links:


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/newsletter

]]> 1047 no Ted Lucas on Slip-N-Slide Records, Miami Hip-Hop, and R&B’s Comeback https://trapital.libsyn.com/ted-lucas-on-slip-n-slide-records-miami-hip-hop-and-rbs-comeback Slip-N-Slide Records founder and CEO Ted Lucas came on the podcast to talk about his influential record label. Slip-N-Slide was home to Trick Daddy, Trina, Rick Ross, Plies, and many more. We talk about the early days when Ted had to pay major record labels for distribution! We also talk about why his label stayed independent, why his artists had major deals with other labels, and R&B’s role in modern music. We also talk about SuperFest, the music festival he runs in Miami, and his rising artists Sebastian Mikael and Teenear. Lastly, we talk about Miami--it’s role in hip-hop and its role in tech, and all the VCs and tech folks moving to his city. If you’re interested in how an indie record label can make moves in the music industry, this is the podcast for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Ted Lucas, @slipnsliderec, slipnsliderecords.com Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Fri, 19 Feb 2021 00:51:38 -0000 Ted Lucas on Slip-N-Slide Records, Miami Hip-Hop, and R&B’s Comeback full 57 Dan Runcie Slip-N-Slide Records founder and CEO Ted Lucas came on the podcast to talk about his influential record label. Slip-N-Slide was home to Trick Daddy, Trina, Rick Ross, Plies, and many more. We talk about the early days when Ted had to pay major record... Slip-N-Slide Records founder and CEO Ted Lucas came on the podcast to talk about his influential record label. Slip-N-Slide was home to Trick Daddy, Trina, Rick Ross, Plies, and many more. We talk about the early days when Ted had to pay major record labels for distribution! We also talk about why his label stayed independent, why his artists had major deals with other labels, and R&B’s role in modern music. We also talk about SuperFest, the music festival he runs in Miami, and his rising artists Sebastian Mikael and Teenear. Lastly, we talk about Miami--it’s role in hip-hop and its role in tech, and all the VCs and tech folks moving to his city. If you’re interested in how an indie record label can make moves in the music industry, this is the podcast for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Ted Lucas, @slipnsliderec, slipnsliderecords.com Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Slip-N-Slide Records founder and CEO Ted Lucas came on the podcast to talk about his influential record label. Slip-N-Slide was home to Trick Daddy, Trina, Rick Ross, Plies, and many more. We talk about the early days when Ted had to pay major record labels for distribution! We also talk about why his label stayed independent, why his artists had major deals with other labels, and R&B’s role in modern music. We also talk about SuperFest, the music festival he runs in Miami, and his rising artists Sebastian Mikael and Teenear. Lastly, we talk about Miami--it’s role in hip-hop and its role in tech, and all the VCs and tech folks moving to his city.

If you’re interested in how an indie record label can make moves in the music industry, this is the podcast for you.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Ted Lucas, @slipnsliderec, slipnsliderecords.com

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2673 no J. Erving on Human Re-Sources, Sony Music's Acquisition, and How to Evaluate Talent https://trapital.libsyn.com/j-erving-on-human-re-sources-sony-musics-acquisition-and-how-to-evaluate-talent Human Re-Sources founder J. Erving came on the podcast to talk about why he recently sold the rising indie distributor to Sony Music, where he’s now EVP of Creative Development and an EVP at The Orchard, where Human Re-Sources now sits. We also talked about his experience managing artists like Jeremih, why record labels and indie distributors partner with each other, how to evaluate and develop talent in today’s era, and more. If you’re interested in the “role of a record label” in today’s landscape, this is the podcast for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: J. Erving, @human.re.sources, human-re-sources.com Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Wed, 10 Feb 2021 17:56:28 -0000 J. Erving on Human Re-Sources, Sony Music's Acquisition, and How to Evaluate Talent full 56 Dan Runcie Human Re-Sources founder J. Erving came on the podcast to talk about why he recently sold the rising indie distributor to Sony Music, where he’s now EVP of Creative Development and an EVP at The Orchard, where Human Re-Sources now sits. We also... Human Re-Sources founder J. Erving came on the podcast to talk about why he recently sold the rising indie distributor to Sony Music, where he’s now EVP of Creative Development and an EVP at The Orchard, where Human Re-Sources now sits. We also talked about his experience managing artists like Jeremih, why record labels and indie distributors partner with each other, how to evaluate and develop talent in today’s era, and more. If you’re interested in the “role of a record label” in today’s landscape, this is the podcast for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: J. Erving, @human.re.sources, human-re-sources.com Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Human Re-Sources founder J. Erving came on the podcast to talk about why he recently sold the rising indie distributor to Sony Music, where he’s now EVP of Creative Development and an EVP at The Orchard, where Human Re-Sources now sits. We also talked about his experience managing artists like Jeremih, why record labels and indie distributors partner with each other, how to evaluate and develop talent in today’s era, and more.

If you’re interested in the “role of a record label” in today’s landscape, this is the podcast for you.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: J. Erving, @human.re.sources, human-re-sources.com

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2200 no The Best Hip-Hop Album Rollouts of All-Time (with Ernest Wilkins) https://trapital.libsyn.com/the-best-hip-hop-album-rollouts-of-all-time-withernest-wilkins A webinar recording of "The Best Hip-Hop Album Rollouts of All-Time," a conversation on the best album rollouts in hip-hop since the year 2000. I’m joined by Ernest Wilkins of Office Hours. We break down the marketing tactics that make a good album release and each shared our top five list of albums rollouts. Our lists include some big releases by Kanye West, Dreamville, Beyonce, and many more! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Ernest Wilkins, @ernestwilkins, officehoursnewsletter.com Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Fri, 05 Feb 2021 15:32:14 -0000 The Best Hip-Hop Album Rollouts of All-Time (with Ernest Wilkins) full 55 Dan Runcie A webinar recording of "The Best Hip-Hop Album Rollouts of All-Time," a conversation on the best album rollouts in hip-hop since the year 2000. I’m joined by Ernest Wilkins of Office Hours. We break down the marketing tactics that make a good album... A webinar recording of "The Best Hip-Hop Album Rollouts of All-Time," a conversation on the best album rollouts in hip-hop since the year 2000. I’m joined by Ernest Wilkins of Office Hours. We break down the marketing tactics that make a good album release and each shared our top five list of albums rollouts. Our lists include some big releases by Kanye West, Dreamville, Beyonce, and many more! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Ernest Wilkins, @ernestwilkins, officehoursnewsletter.com Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co A webinar recording of "The Best Hip-Hop Album Rollouts of All-Time," a conversation on the best album rollouts in hip-hop since the year 2000. I’m joined by Ernest Wilkins of Office Hours.

We break down the marketing tactics that make a good album release and each shared our top five list of albums rollouts. Our lists include some big releases by Kanye West, Dreamville, Beyonce, and many more!

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Ernest Wilkins, @ernestwilkins, officehoursnewsletter.com

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 3168 no Def Jam's Past, Present, and Future with Gary Suarez https://trapital.libsyn.com/def-jams-past-present-and-future-with-gary-suarez A webinar recording of "Def Jam's Past, Present, and Future," a conversation on the past decade of business decisions made by one of hip-hop's most storied record labels. Gary and I discuss the highlights, the lowlights, and who should lead the label next. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Gary Suarez ( @noyokono ) runs a hip-hop newsletter called Cabbages. He's a music journalist with bylines in Vulture, Entertainment Weekly, NPR and VICE. To learn more about his work, sign up for his newsletter at https://cabbages.substack.com/ Dan Runcie is the founder of Trapital, a media company that covers the business of hip-hop. Learn more at: https://trapital.co   Thu, 28 Jan 2021 21:23:44 -0000 Def Jam's Past, Present, and Future with Gary Suarez full 55 Dan Runcie A webinar recording of "Def Jam's Past, Present, and Future," a conversation on the past decade of business decisions made by one of hip-hop's most storied record labels. Gary and I discuss the highlights, the lowlights, and who should lead the label... A webinar recording of "Def Jam's Past, Present, and Future," a conversation on the past decade of business decisions made by one of hip-hop's most storied record labels. Gary and I discuss the highlights, the lowlights, and who should lead the label next. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Gary Suarez ( @noyokono ) runs a hip-hop newsletter called Cabbages. He's a music journalist with bylines in Vulture, Entertainment Weekly, NPR and VICE. To learn more about his work, sign up for his newsletter at https://cabbages.substack.com/ Dan Runcie is the founder of Trapital, a media company that covers the business of hip-hop. Learn more at: https://trapital.co   A webinar recording of "Def Jam's Past, Present, and Future," a conversation on the past decade of business decisions made by one of hip-hop's most storied record labels.

Gary and I discuss the highlights, the lowlights, and who should lead the label next.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Gary Suarez ( @noyokono ) runs a hip-hop newsletter called Cabbages. He's a music journalist with bylines in Vulture, Entertainment Weekly, NPR and VICE.

To learn more about his work, sign up for his newsletter at https://cabbages.substack.com/

Dan Runcie is the founder of Trapital, a media company that covers the business of hip-hop.

Learn more at: https://trapital.co

 

]]> 3568 no Binta Brown on the State of the Music Industry, omalilly projects, and Black Music Action Coalition https://trapital.libsyn.com/binta-brown-on-the-state-of-the-music-industry-omalilly-projects-and-black-music-action-coalition Music executive Binta Brown talked about why she left a successful career as an attorney to enter the music industry. We talk about the opportunities she saw and how the industry differs from other forms of media. We also talked about her work leading the Black Music Action Coalition, an advocacy organization formed to address systemic racism in the music industry. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Binta Brown, @batnib Link: Black Music Action Coalition Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Thu, 21 Jan 2021 18:01:31 -0000 Binta Brown on the State of the Music Industry, omalilly projects, and Black Music Action Coalition full 53 Dan Runcie Music executive Binta Brown talked about why she left a successful career as an attorney to enter the music industry. We talk about the opportunities she saw and how the industry differs from other forms of media. We also talked about her work leading... Music executive Binta Brown talked about why she left a successful career as an attorney to enter the music industry. We talk about the opportunities she saw and how the industry differs from other forms of media. We also talked about her work leading the Black Music Action Coalition, an advocacy organization formed to address systemic racism in the music industry. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Binta Brown, @batnib Link: Black Music Action Coalition Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Music executive Binta Brown talked about why she left a successful career as an attorney to enter the music industry. We talk about the opportunities she saw and how the industry differs from other forms of media. We also talked about her work leading the Black Music Action Coalition, an advocacy organization formed to address systemic racism in the music industry.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Binta Brown, @batnib

Link:

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2675 no Master P on Reebok, Ownership, Generational Wealth, and Lessons Learned from Reginald Lewis https://trapital.libsyn.com/master-p-on-reebok-ownership-generational-wealth-and-lessons-learned-from-reginald-lewis The mogul and hip-hop legend Percy Miller (!!) came on to talk about why he and ex-NBA star Baron Davis want to acquire Reebok. We also talked about his new Master P Reviews channel on YouTube, supporting Black businesses, how his strategy differs from Jay Z and Kanye West, and lessons learned from studying the late Reginald Lewis, the Wall Street banker who started the first Black-owned billion dollar company. If you want to learn it straight from the No Limit Records legend himself, this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Master P, @masterp Link: “Why Do White Guys Have All The Fun” - Reginald Lewis “What Hip-Hop Gets Wrong About Master P and No Limit” - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Wed, 13 Jan 2021 17:32:49 -0000 Master P on Reebok, Ownership, Generational Wealth, and Lessons Learned from Reginald Lewis full 53 Dan Runcie The mogul and hip-hop legend Percy Miller (!!) came on to talk about why he and ex-NBA star Baron Davis want to acquire Reebok. We also talked about his new Master P Reviews channel on YouTube, supporting Black businesses, how his strategy differs... The mogul and hip-hop legend Percy Miller (!!) came on to talk about why he and ex-NBA star Baron Davis want to acquire Reebok. We also talked about his new Master P Reviews channel on YouTube, supporting Black businesses, how his strategy differs from Jay Z and Kanye West, and lessons learned from studying the late Reginald Lewis, the Wall Street banker who started the first Black-owned billion dollar company. If you want to learn it straight from the No Limit Records legend himself, this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Master P, @masterp Link: “Why Do White Guys Have All The Fun” - Reginald Lewis “What Hip-Hop Gets Wrong About Master P and No Limit” - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co The mogul and hip-hop legend Percy Miller (!!) came on to talk about why he and ex-NBA star Baron Davis want to acquire Reebok. We also talked about his new Master P Reviews channel on YouTube, supporting Black businesses, how his strategy differs from Jay Z and Kanye West, and lessons learned from studying the late Reginald Lewis, the Wall Street banker who started the first Black-owned billion dollar company.

If you want to learn it straight from the No Limit Records legend himself, this is the episode for you.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Master P, @masterp

Link:

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2848 no Why Artists Are Selling Their Music Catalogs (with Karl Fowlkes) https://trapital.libsyn.com/why-artists-are-selling-their-music-catalogs-with-karl-fowlkes A recording of the Why Artists Are Selling Their Music Catalogs webinar from December 19. We broke down the reasons why so many artists sold their catalogs in 2020, the companies that want them, and where this trend is heading. Karl Fowlkes is an entertainment attorney whose clients include artists, musicians, athletes, producers and creative companies that have amassed millions of streams, RIAA certifications. He's also a music industry professor at Rowan University and Drexel University. To learn more about his work, visit: https://www.fowlkesfirm.com/ Dan Runcie is the founder of Trapital, a media company that covers the business of hip-hop. Learn more at: https://trapital.co Mon, 04 Jan 2021 16:07:59 -0000 Why Artists Are Selling Their Music Catalogs (with Karl Fowlkes) full 52 Dan Runcie A recording of the Why Artists Are Selling Their Music Catalogs webinar from December 19. We broke down the reasons why so many artists sold their catalogs in 2020, the companies that want them, and where this trend is heading. Karl Fowlkes is an... A recording of the Why Artists Are Selling Their Music Catalogs webinar from December 19. We broke down the reasons why so many artists sold their catalogs in 2020, the companies that want them, and where this trend is heading. Karl Fowlkes is an entertainment attorney whose clients include artists, musicians, athletes, producers and creative companies that have amassed millions of streams, RIAA certifications. He's also a music industry professor at Rowan University and Drexel University. To learn more about his work, visit: https://www.fowlkesfirm.com/ Dan Runcie is the founder of Trapital, a media company that covers the business of hip-hop. Learn more at: https://trapital.co A recording of the Why Artists Are Selling Their Music Catalogs webinar from December 19. We broke down the reasons why so many artists sold their catalogs in 2020, the companies that want them, and where this trend is heading.

Karl Fowlkes is an entertainment attorney whose clients include artists, musicians, athletes, producers and creative companies that have amassed millions of streams, RIAA certifications. He's also a music industry professor at Rowan University and Drexel University.

To learn more about his work, visit: https://www.fowlkesfirm.com/

Dan Runcie is the founder of Trapital, a media company that covers the business of hip-hop. Learn more at: https://trapital.co

]]> 3014 no Phylicia Fant on Developing Superstar Artists, Rising in the Music Industry, and Navigating 2020 https://trapital.libsyn.com/phylicia-fant-on-developing-superstar-artists-rising-in-the-music-industry-and-navigating-2020 Columbia Records’ Head of Urban Music Phylicia Fant came on to talk about her career in the music industry. Before Columbia, she had executive roles at both Warner and Motown, and launched The Purple Agency. We talked about the superstar artists she’s worked with, the challenges the industry has faced in 2020, the use of the word “urban” in the music industry, and more. We also talked about the documentary she worked on--Eggs Over Easy: Black Women & Fertility. If you’re interested in how major record labels have navigated all the changes in 2020, then this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Phylicia Fant Links: Eggs Over Easy: Black Women & Fertility Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Mon, 14 Dec 2020 16:05:55 -0000 Phylicia Fant on Developing Superstar Artists, Rising in the Music Industry, and Navigating 2020 full 51 Dan Runcie Columbia Records’ Head of Urban Music Phylicia Fant came on to talk about her career in the music industry. Before Columbia, she had executive roles at both Warner and Motown, and launched The Purple Agency. We talked about the superstar artists... Columbia Records’ Head of Urban Music Phylicia Fant came on to talk about her career in the music industry. Before Columbia, she had executive roles at both Warner and Motown, and launched The Purple Agency. We talked about the superstar artists she’s worked with, the challenges the industry has faced in 2020, the use of the word “urban” in the music industry, and more. We also talked about the documentary she worked on--Eggs Over Easy: Black Women & Fertility. If you’re interested in how major record labels have navigated all the changes in 2020, then this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Phylicia Fant Links: Eggs Over Easy: Black Women & Fertility Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Columbia Records’ Head of Urban Music Phylicia Fant came on to talk about her career in the music industry. Before Columbia, she had executive roles at both Warner and Motown, and launched The Purple Agency. We talked about the superstar artists she’s worked with, the challenges the industry has faced in 2020, the use of the word “urban” in the music industry, and more. We also talked about the documentary she worked on--Eggs Over Easy: Black Women & Fertility.

If you’re interested in how major record labels have navigated all the changes in 2020, then this is the episode for you.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Phylicia Fant

Links: Eggs Over Easy: Black Women & Fertility


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 3007 no Flawless Real Talk on Netflix’s Rhythm + Flow, Life as an Indie Artist, and Building His Fanbase https://trapital.libsyn.com/flawless-real-talk-on-netflixs-rhythm-flow-life-as-an-indie-artist-and-building-his-fanbase Rapper, producer, and entrepreneur Flawless Real Talk joined to talk about how he manages his rap career. He was the runner up on Netflix’s hip-hop competition show Rhythm & Flow, which boosted his career trajectory. But despite all the industry attention, Flawless is still an independent artist. He talks about that decision, the tradeoffs he’s had to make, and what his goals are as an artist. He recently hosted a livestream concert on LIVIT, where he had over 1 million fans join in. If you’re interested in how artists manage tradeoffs between being signed and indie, building a fanbase, and resiliency, then this is the episode for you. Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Flawless Real Talk, @flawlessri, flawlessri.com Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Mon, 07 Dec 2020 17:32:18 -0000 Flawless Real Talk on Netflix’s Rhythm + Flow, Life as an Indie Artist, and Building His Fanbase full 50 Dan Runcie Rapper, producer, and entrepreneur Flawless Real Talk joined to talk about how he manages his rap career. He was the runner up on Netflix’s hip-hop competition show Rhythm & Flow, which boosted his career trajectory. But despite all the industry... Rapper, producer, and entrepreneur Flawless Real Talk joined to talk about how he manages his rap career. He was the runner up on Netflix’s hip-hop competition show Rhythm & Flow, which boosted his career trajectory. But despite all the industry attention, Flawless is still an independent artist. He talks about that decision, the tradeoffs he’s had to make, and what his goals are as an artist. He recently hosted a livestream concert on LIVIT, where he had over 1 million fans join in. If you’re interested in how artists manage tradeoffs between being signed and indie, building a fanbase, and resiliency, then this is the episode for you. Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Flawless Real Talk, @flawlessri, flawlessri.com Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Rapper, producer, and entrepreneur Flawless Real Talk joined to talk about how he manages his rap career. He was the runner up on Netflix’s hip-hop competition show Rhythm & Flow, which boosted his career trajectory. But despite all the industry attention, Flawless is still an independent artist. He talks about that decision, the tradeoffs he’s had to make, and what his goals are as an artist. He recently hosted a livestream concert on LIVIT, where he had over 1 million fans join in.

If you’re interested in how artists manage tradeoffs between being signed and indie, building a fanbase, and resiliency, then this is the episode for you.

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Flawless Real Talk, @flawlessri, flawlessri.com

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2706 no Daouda Leonard on CreateSafe, the Record Deal Simulator, and Empowering Artists to Manage Their Careers https://trapital.libsyn.com/daouda-leonard-on-createsafe-the-record-deal-simulator-and-empowering-artists-to-manage-their-careers CreateSafe co-founder and CEO Daouda Leonard came through to break down his company’s goals in the music industry. In 2020, CreateSafe launched the record deal simulator to empower artists to better manage their careers. Daouda has used these tools to manage Grimes and other artists. It’s planning to launch a publishing simulator and a suite of other products. The goal is to make the music industry’s operating system--an open source tool that offers the transparency the industry needs.  If you’re interested in artist management tools and freemium business models, this is the episode for you. Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Daouda Leonard, @daoudaleonard, createsafe.io Links: Record Deal Simulator - CreateSafe Bringing Transparency to the Music Industry - The Hustle Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Mon, 30 Nov 2020 15:29:18 -0000 Daouda Leonard on CreateSafe, the Record Deal Simulator, and Empowering Artists to Manage Their Careers full 49 Dan Runcie CreateSafe co-founder and CEO Daouda Leonard came through to break down his company’s goals in the music industry. In 2020, CreateSafe launched the record deal simulator to empower artists to better manage their careers. Daouda has used these tools... CreateSafe co-founder and CEO Daouda Leonard came through to break down his company’s goals in the music industry. In 2020, CreateSafe launched the record deal simulator to empower artists to better manage their careers. Daouda has used these tools to manage Grimes and other artists. It’s planning to launch a publishing simulator and a suite of other products. The goal is to make the music industry’s operating system--an open source tool that offers the transparency the industry needs.  If you’re interested in artist management tools and freemium business models, this is the episode for you. Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Daouda Leonard, @daoudaleonard, createsafe.io Links: Record Deal Simulator - CreateSafe Bringing Transparency to the Music Industry - The Hustle Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co CreateSafe co-founder and CEO Daouda Leonard came through to break down his company’s goals in the music industry. In 2020, CreateSafe launched the record deal simulator to empower artists to better manage their careers. Daouda has used these tools to manage Grimes and other artists. It’s planning to launch a publishing simulator and a suite of other products. The goal is to make the music industry’s operating system--an open source tool that offers the transparency the industry needs. 


If you’re interested in artist management tools and freemium business models, this is the episode for you.

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Daouda Leonard, @daoudaleonard, createsafe.io

Links:


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2682 no Steven Galanis on Cameo’s Growing Marketplace and Closing the Gap Between Fame and Monetization https://trapital.libsyn.com/steven-galanis-on-cameos-growing-marketplace-and-closing-the-gap-between-fame-and-monetization Cameo CEO and co-founder Steven Galanis came on the pod to talk about his company’s marketplace for personalized celebrity video shoutouts. We broke down Cameo’s growth in the pandemic, finding product-market fit with people who are more famous than they are rich, and tapping into the long tail. We also break down Cameo’s success with hip-hop artists and Black culture, and the future products that may come from the company. If you’re interested in how marketplaces are built, creating flywheels, and finding product-market fit, this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Steven Galanis, cameo.com, @bookcameo Links: How Cameo Blew Up During Quarantine - New Yorker Why The Music Industry Should Be Tuning Into Cameo - Forbes Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Mon, 23 Nov 2020 15:37:16 -0000 Steven Galanis on Cameo’s Growing Marketplace and Closing the Gap Between Fame and Monetization full 48 Dan Runcie Cameo CEO and co-founder Steven Galanis came on the pod to talk about his company’s marketplace for personalized celebrity video shoutouts. We broke down Cameo’s growth in the pandemic, finding product-market fit with people who are more famous... Cameo CEO and co-founder Steven Galanis came on the pod to talk about his company’s marketplace for personalized celebrity video shoutouts. We broke down Cameo’s growth in the pandemic, finding product-market fit with people who are more famous than they are rich, and tapping into the long tail. We also break down Cameo’s success with hip-hop artists and Black culture, and the future products that may come from the company. If you’re interested in how marketplaces are built, creating flywheels, and finding product-market fit, this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Steven Galanis, cameo.com, @bookcameo Links: How Cameo Blew Up During Quarantine - New Yorker Why The Music Industry Should Be Tuning Into Cameo - Forbes Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Cameo CEO and co-founder Steven Galanis came on the pod to talk about his company’s marketplace for personalized celebrity video shoutouts. We broke down Cameo’s growth in the pandemic, finding product-market fit with people who are more famous than they are rich, and tapping into the long tail. We also break down Cameo’s success with hip-hop artists and Black culture, and the future products that may come from the company.

If you’re interested in how marketplaces are built, creating flywheels, and finding product-market fit, this is the episode for you.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Steven Galanis, cameo.com, @bookcameo

Links:

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2440 no Dave Macli on Audiomack’s Role in Music Streaming, Partnership with DJBooth, and Global Expansion https://trapital.libsyn.com/dave-macli-on-audiomacks-role-in-music-streaming-partnership-with-djbooth-and-global-expansion Dave Macli is the co-founder and CEO of Audiomack, a music streaming provider built for artists. We discuss how Audiomack got started, its business model, and why it’s artist-first approach is so important. It landed early projects by J. Cole, Chance The Rapper, and Jennifer Lopez. Dave is also co-founder of DJBooth, which has had an ongoing partnership with Audiomack. In 2020, Audiomack has strengthened its global footprint in Africa and other continents. If you’re interested in how music streaming execs navigate a rapidly growing landscape, this is the podcast for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Dave Macli, @audiomacli, audiomack.com Links: Audiomack Announces Partnership with DJBooth Warner Music Inks Licensing Deal with Audiomack for Key African Markets Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Sat, 14 Nov 2020 01:25:53 -0000 Dave Macli on Audiomack’s Role in Music Streaming, Partnership with DJBooth, and Global Expansion full 47 Dan Runcie Dave Macli is the co-founder and CEO of Audiomack, a music streaming provider built for artists. We discuss how Audiomack got started, its business model, and why it’s artist-first approach is so important. It landed early projects by J. Cole,... Dave Macli is the co-founder and CEO of Audiomack, a music streaming provider built for artists. We discuss how Audiomack got started, its business model, and why it’s artist-first approach is so important. It landed early projects by J. Cole, Chance The Rapper, and Jennifer Lopez. Dave is also co-founder of DJBooth, which has had an ongoing partnership with Audiomack. In 2020, Audiomack has strengthened its global footprint in Africa and other continents. If you’re interested in how music streaming execs navigate a rapidly growing landscape, this is the podcast for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Dave Macli, @audiomacli, audiomack.com Links: Audiomack Announces Partnership with DJBooth Warner Music Inks Licensing Deal with Audiomack for Key African Markets Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Dave Macli is the co-founder and CEO of Audiomack, a music streaming provider built for artists. We discuss how Audiomack got started, its business model, and why it’s artist-first approach is so important. It landed early projects by J. Cole, Chance The Rapper, and Jennifer Lopez.

Dave is also co-founder of DJBooth, which has had an ongoing partnership with Audiomack. In 2020, Audiomack has strengthened its global footprint in Africa and other continents.

If you’re interested in how music streaming execs navigate a rapidly growing landscape, this is the podcast for you.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Dave Macli, @audiomacli, audiomack.com

Links:

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2538 no Big Tech's Big Plans in the Music Industry with Cherie Hu https://trapital.libsyn.com/big-techs-big-plans-in-the-music-industry-with-cherie-hu This is a recording of our webinar discussion on the latest music strategies from big tech companies! We broke down the latest and greatest from Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Google, Tencent, and more. Cherie Hu is an award-winning music journalist and founder of Water & Music where she unpacks the fine print of innovation in the music business. Her work has been featured in Billboard, Forbes, NPR Music, Columbia Journalism Review, Pitchfork, Rolling Stone, Music Business Worldwide, Variety, CNBC, and more. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher |  Overcast | RSS Hosts: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Cherie Hu, @cheriehu42, cheriehu.com Links: Slides shared during webinar Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Wed, 21 Oct 2020 20:54:24 -0000 Big Tech's Big Plans in the Music Industry with Cherie Hu full 46 Dan Runcie This is a recording of our webinar discussion on the latest music strategies from big tech companies! We broke down the latest and greatest from Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Google, Tencent, and more. Cherie Hu is an award-winning music... This is a recording of our webinar discussion on the latest music strategies from big tech companies! We broke down the latest and greatest from Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Google, Tencent, and more. Cherie Hu is an award-winning music journalist and founder of Water & Music where she unpacks the fine print of innovation in the music business. Her work has been featured in Billboard, Forbes, NPR Music, Columbia Journalism Review, Pitchfork, Rolling Stone, Music Business Worldwide, Variety, CNBC, and more. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher |  Overcast | RSS Hosts: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Cherie Hu, @cheriehu42, cheriehu.com Links: Slides shared during webinar Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co This is a recording of our webinar discussion on the latest music strategies from big tech companies!

We broke down the latest and greatest from Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Google, Tencent, and more.

Cherie Hu is an award-winning music journalist and founder of Water & Music where she unpacks the fine print of innovation in the music business.

Her work has been featured in Billboard, Forbes, NPR Music, Columbia Journalism Review, Pitchfork, Rolling Stone, Music Business Worldwide, Variety, CNBC, and more.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher |  Overcast | RSS

Hosts:

Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co
Cherie Hu, @cheriehu42, cheriehu.com

Links: Slides shared during webinar

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 3129 no Alex "Al D" Damashek on a New Partnership With Twitch, Move Forward Music, and the Future of Live Music https://trapital.libsyn.com/alex-damashek-on-a-new-partnership-with-twitch-move-forward-music-and-the-future-of-live-music Al D is founder of Move Forward Music, a New York-based live events production company. His company built a reputation for putting on the first NY shows for big name artists like Kendrick Lamar, DaBaby, Noname, and others. But like many companies, Move Forward was forced to pivot in 2020. Al partnered with Twitch for a new live streaming channel. Oct 17-18 is the Move Forward Fest with Just Blaze, The Alchemist, Sonny Digital, and more. Al D broke down tough decisions made, his business model, and the future of his company after the pandemic. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Alex Damashek, @mfmusic, moveforwardmusic.com,  Links: Move Forward Twitch Channel: https://www.twitch.tv/moveforwardmusic Move Forward Partners with Twitch: https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/9460342/move-forward-music-partners-twitch-live-streamed-programming-festival/ Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Mon, 12 Oct 2020 16:43:12 -0000 Alex "Al D" Damashek on a New Partnership With Twitch, Move Forward Music, and the Future of Live Music full 45 Dan Runcie Al D is founder of Move Forward Music, a New York-based live events production company. His company built a reputation for putting on the first NY shows for big name artists like Kendrick Lamar, DaBaby, Noname, and others. But like many companies,... Al D is founder of Move Forward Music, a New York-based live events production company. His company built a reputation for putting on the first NY shows for big name artists like Kendrick Lamar, DaBaby, Noname, and others. But like many companies, Move Forward was forced to pivot in 2020. Al partnered with Twitch for a new live streaming channel. Oct 17-18 is the Move Forward Fest with Just Blaze, The Alchemist, Sonny Digital, and more. Al D broke down tough decisions made, his business model, and the future of his company after the pandemic. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Alex Damashek, @mfmusic, moveforwardmusic.com,  Links: Move Forward Twitch Channel: https://www.twitch.tv/moveforwardmusic Move Forward Partners with Twitch: https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/9460342/move-forward-music-partners-twitch-live-streamed-programming-festival/ Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Al D is founder of Move Forward Music, a New York-based live events production company. His company built a reputation for putting on the first NY shows for big name artists like Kendrick Lamar, DaBaby, Noname, and others.

But like many companies, Move Forward was forced to pivot in 2020. Al partnered with Twitch for a new live streaming channel. Oct 17-18 is the Move Forward Fest with Just Blaze, The Alchemist, Sonny Digital, and more.

Al D broke down tough decisions made, his business model, and the future of his company after the pandemic.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Alex Damashek, @mfmusic, moveforwardmusic.com, 

Links:

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2503 no Netflix's Black Content Strategy https://trapital.libsyn.com/netflixs-black-content-strategy An audio version of the Trapital essay: Netflix's Black Content Strategy, Explained. The global entertainment company has grown stronger since it leveled up and focused on its influential customers. Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the people taking hip-hop to the level at trapital.co. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Fri, 02 Oct 2020 10:00:00 -0000 Netflix's Black Content Strategy full 44 Dan Runcie An audio version of the Trapital essay: . The global entertainment company has grown stronger since it leveled up and focused on its influential customers. Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the... An audio version of the Trapital essay: Netflix's Black Content Strategy, Explained. The global entertainment company has grown stronger since it leveled up and focused on its influential customers. Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the people taking hip-hop to the level at trapital.co. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co An audio version of the Trapital essay: Netflix's Black Content Strategy, Explained.

The global entertainment company has grown stronger since it leveled up and focused on its influential customers.

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the people taking hip-hop to the level at trapital.co.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

]]> 781 no The Best Hip-Hop Marketing Campaigns of All-Time with Marcus Collins https://trapital.libsyn.com/the-best-hip-hop-marketing-campaigns-of-all-time-with-marcus-collins This is the audio from the webinar with Marcus Collins, a marketing professor at the University of Michigan, Ross School of Business. We broke down the top five hip-hop marketing campaigns of all time (and a few honorable mentions). We also talked about Marcus’ favorite ad campaigns from his days as an advertising exec at Translation, Doner, and other agencies. At the end, we broke down Travis Scott’s McDonald’s campaign and took questions from attendees. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Marcus Collins, @marctothec, marctothec.com Links to discussed campaigns: Hamburger Helper “Watch the Stove” Nipsey Hussle $100 mixtape The Reebok S. Carter Reebok Allen Iverson A5 and A6 Budweiser Made in America case study Beats by Dre ambush marketing at London 2012 Olympics How “Straight Outta Compton” became a viral sensation Sprite “Obey Your Thirst” Beyonce surprise album drop Hello Brooklyn campaign Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:48:41 -0000 The Best Hip-Hop Marketing Campaigns of All-Time with Marcus Collins full 43 Dan Runcie This is the audio from the webinar with Marcus Collins, a marketing professor at the University of Michigan, Ross School of Business. We broke down the top five hip-hop marketing campaigns of all time (and a few honorable mentions). We also talked... This is the audio from the webinar with Marcus Collins, a marketing professor at the University of Michigan, Ross School of Business. We broke down the top five hip-hop marketing campaigns of all time (and a few honorable mentions). We also talked about Marcus’ favorite ad campaigns from his days as an advertising exec at Translation, Doner, and other agencies. At the end, we broke down Travis Scott’s McDonald’s campaign and took questions from attendees. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Marcus Collins, @marctothec, marctothec.com Links to discussed campaigns: Hamburger Helper “Watch the Stove” Nipsey Hussle $100 mixtape The Reebok S. Carter Reebok Allen Iverson A5 and A6 Budweiser Made in America case study Beats by Dre ambush marketing at London 2012 Olympics How “Straight Outta Compton” became a viral sensation Sprite “Obey Your Thirst” Beyonce surprise album drop Hello Brooklyn campaign Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co This is the audio from the webinar with Marcus Collins, a marketing professor at the University of Michigan, Ross School of Business. We broke down the top five hip-hop marketing campaigns of all time (and a few honorable mentions). We also talked about Marcus’ favorite ad campaigns from his days as an advertising exec at Translation, Doner, and other agencies.

At the end, we broke down Travis Scott’s McDonald’s campaign and took questions from attendees.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Marcus Collins, @marctothec, marctothec.com

Links to discussed campaigns:

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 3141 no Jason Geter on Heavy Sound Labs, Launching Grand Hustle, Signing T.I. and Travis Scott, and Redefining the Modern Record Label https://trapital.libsyn.com/jason-geter-on-heavy-sound-labs-launching-grand-hustle-signing-ti-and-travis-scott-and-redefining-the-modern-record-label Heavy Sound Labs founder and CEO Jason Geter came on the Trapital Podcast to break down his rise in the music industry. He started as an intern when he was in high school! He eventually started Grand Hustle with T.I. and helped build his career. Jason adapted the playbook to help build Travis Scott’s career. Jason recently launched Heavy Sound Labs, a music incubator that redefines what it means to be a record label. He’s also an investor in All Def Digital, the largest Black-owned digital media property. If you are interested in how the music industry has evolved and where it’s heading, this is the podcast for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Jason Geter, @jasongeter, heavysound.com Related essay: How Travis Scott Growth Hacked Hip-Hop Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Fri, 11 Sep 2020 17:18:03 -0000 Jason Geter on Heavy Sound Labs, Launching Grand Hustle, Signing T.I. and Travis Scott, and Redefining the Modern Record Label full 42 Dan Runcie Heavy Sound Labs founder and CEO Jason Geter came on the Trapital Podcast to break down his rise in the music industry. He started as an intern when he was in high school! He eventually started Grand Hustle with T.I. and helped build his career. Jason... Heavy Sound Labs founder and CEO Jason Geter came on the Trapital Podcast to break down his rise in the music industry. He started as an intern when he was in high school! He eventually started Grand Hustle with T.I. and helped build his career. Jason adapted the playbook to help build Travis Scott’s career. Jason recently launched Heavy Sound Labs, a music incubator that redefines what it means to be a record label. He’s also an investor in All Def Digital, the largest Black-owned digital media property. If you are interested in how the music industry has evolved and where it’s heading, this is the podcast for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Jason Geter, @jasongeter, heavysound.com Related essay: How Travis Scott Growth Hacked Hip-Hop Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Heavy Sound Labs founder and CEO Jason Geter came on the Trapital Podcast to break down his rise in the music industry. He started as an intern when he was in high school! He eventually started Grand Hustle with T.I. and helped build his career. Jason adapted the playbook to help build Travis Scott’s career.

Jason recently launched Heavy Sound Labs, a music incubator that redefines what it means to be a record label. He’s also an investor in All Def Digital, the largest Black-owned digital media property.

If you are interested in how the music industry has evolved and where it’s heading, this is the podcast for you.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Jason Geter, @jasongeter, heavysound.com

Related essay: How Travis Scott Growth Hacked Hip-Hop Trapital

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2623 no Donald Albright on Building a Podcast Network, Hip-Hop Marketing Tactics, and Tenderfoot TV’s Future https://trapital.libsyn.com/donald-albright-on-building-a-podcast-network-hip-hop-marketing-tactics-and-tenderfoot-tvs-future Tenderfoot TV cofounder and President Donald Albright came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how his company has amassed 500 million podcast downloads. Tenderfoot is behind this hit shows Up and Vanished, Atlanta Monster, To Live and Die in LA, and more. The company has partnered with HBO, iHeartMedia, HBO, and others. Before Tenderfoot, Donald was a music exec in Atlanta where he managed LaFace Records’ street team, managed August Alsina, and worked closely with OutKast, Goodie Mob, and others. If you are interested in podcast strategy, partnerships, and ownership, this is def the podcast for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Donald Albright, @dabright03, tenderfoot.tv Link: How Donald Albright Became Atlanta’s Podcast Kingmaker - Atlanta Magazine Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Wed, 02 Sep 2020 16:01:59 -0000 Donald Albright on Building a Podcast Network, Hip-Hop Marketing Tactics, and Tenderfoot TV’s Future full 41 Dan Runcie Tenderfoot TV cofounder and President Donald Albright came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how his company has amassed 500 million podcast downloads. Tenderfoot is behind this hit shows Up and Vanished, Atlanta Monster, To Live and Die in LA,... Tenderfoot TV cofounder and President Donald Albright came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how his company has amassed 500 million podcast downloads. Tenderfoot is behind this hit shows Up and Vanished, Atlanta Monster, To Live and Die in LA, and more. The company has partnered with HBO, iHeartMedia, HBO, and others. Before Tenderfoot, Donald was a music exec in Atlanta where he managed LaFace Records’ street team, managed August Alsina, and worked closely with OutKast, Goodie Mob, and others. If you are interested in podcast strategy, partnerships, and ownership, this is def the podcast for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Donald Albright, @dabright03, tenderfoot.tv Link: How Donald Albright Became Atlanta’s Podcast Kingmaker - Atlanta Magazine Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Tenderfoot TV cofounder and President Donald Albright came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how his company has amassed 500 million podcast downloads. Tenderfoot is behind this hit shows Up and Vanished, Atlanta Monster, To Live and Die in LA, and more. The company has partnered with HBO, iHeartMedia, HBO, and others.

Before Tenderfoot, Donald was a music exec in Atlanta where he managed LaFace Records’ street team, managed August Alsina, and worked closely with OutKast, Goodie Mob, and others.

If you are interested in podcast strategy, partnerships, and ownership, this is def the podcast for you.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Donald Albright, @dabright03, tenderfoot.tv

Link: How Donald Albright Became Atlanta’s Podcast Kingmaker - Atlanta Magazine

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2753 no Hip-hop's Indie Economy https://trapital.libsyn.com/hip-hops-indie-economy An audio version of the Trapital essay: Why Hip-Hop’s Indie Economy Has Taken Off. An ecosystem of rappers and businesses have shaped the path and future for independent artists. Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the people taking hip-hop to the level at trapital.co. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Mon, 31 Aug 2020 20:56:28 -0000 Hip-hop's Indie Economy full 40 Dan Runcie An audio version of the Trapital essay: Why Hip-Hop’s Indie Economy Has Taken Off. An ecosystem of rappers and businesses have shaped the path and future for independent artists. Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts... An audio version of the Trapital essay: Why Hip-Hop’s Indie Economy Has Taken Off. An ecosystem of rappers and businesses have shaped the path and future for independent artists. Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the people taking hip-hop to the level at trapital.co. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co An audio version of the Trapital essay: Why Hip-Hop’s Indie Economy Has Taken Off.

An ecosystem of rappers and businesses have shaped the path and future for independent artists.

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the people taking hip-hop to the level at trapital.co.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

]]> 790 no Tyler, The Creator's Cult-Like Following https://trapital.libsyn.com/tyler-the-creators-cult-like-following An audio version of the Trapital essay: How Tyler, The Creator Built a Cult-Like Following. Tyler's greatest creation is the loyal fanbase that's been riding with him for over a decade. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Links: How Tyler The Creator Built A Cult-Like Following - Trapital Tyler, The Creator's Fashion Show is Unlike Anything You've Ever Seen (Vogue - YouTube) Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Mon, 17 Aug 2020 22:20:00 -0000 Tyler, The Creator's Cult-Like Following full 38 Dan Runcie An audio version of the Trapital essay: How Tyler, The Creator Built a Cult-Like Following. Tyler's greatest creation is the loyal fanbase that's been riding with him for over a decade. Listen: | | | | | | Host: Dan Runcie, , Links: -... An audio version of the Trapital essay: How Tyler, The Creator Built a Cult-Like Following. Tyler's greatest creation is the loyal fanbase that's been riding with him for over a decade. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Links: How Tyler The Creator Built A Cult-Like Following - Trapital Tyler, The Creator's Fashion Show is Unlike Anything You've Ever Seen (Vogue - YouTube) Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co An audio version of the Trapital essay: How Tyler, The Creator Built a Cult-Like Following.

Tyler's greatest creation is the loyal fanbase that's been riding with him for over a decade.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Links:

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 769 no Peter Bittenbender on Mass Appeal’s Rise, Holding Brand Partners Accountable, and International Expansion https://trapital.libsyn.com/peter-bittenbender-on-mass-appeals-rise-holding-brand-partners-accountable-and-international-expansion Mass Appeal CEO Peter Bittenbender came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about the company’s content strategy, the 2020 climate, holding partners accountable, international expansion, and Hip-Hop's 50th Anniversary. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Peter Bittenbender, @bittenbender, massappeal.com Link: Wu Tang Clan: Of Mics and Men: Mass Appeal  Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Tue, 21 Jul 2020 16:04:44 -0000 Peter Bittenbender on Mass Appeal’s Rise, Holding Brand Partners Accountable, and International Expansion full 38 Dan Runcie Mass Appeal CEO Peter Bittenbender came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about the company’s content strategy, the 2020 climate, holding partners accountable, international expansion, and Hip-Hop's 50th Anniversary. Listen: | | | | | | Host:... Mass Appeal CEO Peter Bittenbender came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about the company’s content strategy, the 2020 climate, holding partners accountable, international expansion, and Hip-Hop's 50th Anniversary. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Peter Bittenbender, @bittenbender, massappeal.com Link: Wu Tang Clan: Of Mics and Men: Mass Appeal  Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Mass Appeal CEO Peter Bittenbender came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about the company’s content strategy, the 2020 climate, holding partners accountable, international expansion, and Hip-Hop's 50th Anniversary.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Peter Bittenbender, @bittenbender, massappeal.com

Link: Wu Tang Clan: Of Mics and Men: Mass Appeal 

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2398 no Hip-Hop Challenger Brands with Ernest Wilkins https://trapital.libsyn.com/hip-hop-challenger-brands-with-ernest-wilkins Office Hours’ Ernest Wilkins came through to talk about challenger brands in hip-hop, why they exist, our respective articles on No Limit and Quality Control Music, and what we expect for the future. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Ernest Wilkins, @ernestwilkins, officehours.substack.com Link:  How No Limit Became Hip-Hop’s Challenger Brand - Ernest Wilkins (in Trapital) How Quality Control Music Took Over Atlanta - Dan Runcie (in Office Hours) Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Tue, 14 Jul 2020 16:22:57 -0000 Hip-Hop Challenger Brands with Ernest Wilkins full 37 Dan Runcie Office Hours’ Ernest Wilkins came through to talk about challenger brands in hip-hop, why they exist, our respective articles on No Limit and Quality Control Music, and what we expect for the future. Listen: | | | | | | Host: Dan Runcie, , ... Office Hours’ Ernest Wilkins came through to talk about challenger brands in hip-hop, why they exist, our respective articles on No Limit and Quality Control Music, and what we expect for the future. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Ernest Wilkins, @ernestwilkins, officehours.substack.com Link:  How No Limit Became Hip-Hop’s Challenger Brand - Ernest Wilkins (in Trapital) How Quality Control Music Took Over Atlanta - Dan Runcie (in Office Hours) Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Office Hours’ Ernest Wilkins came through to talk about challenger brands in hip-hop, why they exist, our respective articles on No Limit and Quality Control Music, and what we expect for the future.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Ernest Wilkins, @ernestwilkins, officehours.substack.com

Link: 

How No Limit Became Hip-Hop’s Challenger Brand - Ernest Wilkins (in Trapital)

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2901 no Roy Wood Jr. on How 2020 Changed Comedy, His Comedy Central Partnership, and Why Alabama Means So Much to Him https://trapital.libsyn.com/roy-wood-jr-on-how-2020-changed-comedy-his-comedy-central-partnership-and-why-alabama-means-so-much-to-him Comedian, actor, writer, and producer Roy Wood Jr. came through to talk about how the pandemic and uprisings, all the “lost tapes” from 2020, how comics have shifted, why he partnered with Comedy Central, and why his home state of Alabama means so much to him. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Roy Wood, Jr @roywoodjr, roywoodjr.com   Link:  It’s Time for Stand-ups to Prepare for the Worst - Roy Wood Jr, Vulture Black Patriotism Sketch - Father Figure special, Roy Wood Jr. Roy Wood Jr’s Rap Song “Smoothie Song” Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Tue, 07 Jul 2020 17:14:40 -0000 Roy Wood Jr. on How 2020 Changed Comedy, His Comedy Central Partnership, and Why Alabama Means So Much to Him full 36 Dan Runcie Comedian, actor, writer, and producer Roy Wood Jr. came through to talk about how the pandemic and uprisings, all the “lost tapes” from 2020, how comics have shifted, why he partnered with Comedy Central, and why his home state of Alabama means so... Comedian, actor, writer, and producer Roy Wood Jr. came through to talk about how the pandemic and uprisings, all the “lost tapes” from 2020, how comics have shifted, why he partnered with Comedy Central, and why his home state of Alabama means so much to him. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Roy Wood, Jr @roywoodjr, roywoodjr.com   Link:  It’s Time for Stand-ups to Prepare for the Worst - Roy Wood Jr, Vulture Black Patriotism Sketch - Father Figure special, Roy Wood Jr. Roy Wood Jr’s Rap Song “Smoothie Song” Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Comedian, actor, writer, and producer Roy Wood Jr. came through to talk about how the pandemic and uprisings, all the “lost tapes” from 2020, how comics have shifted, why he partnered with Comedy Central, and why his home state of Alabama means so much to him.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Roy Wood, Jr @roywoodjr, roywoodjr.com

 

Link: 

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2350 no The Steve Jobs of Gap? https://trapital.libsyn.com/the-steve-jobs-of-gap An audio version of the Trapital essay: Why Kanye West’s Gap Deal is a Risk to Yeezy. Yeezy’s new partnership with the struggling apparel company is a threat to the brand that Kanye West built. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Link:    Why Kanye West’s Gap Deal is a Risk to Yeezy - Trapital Kanye describes his issues with Nike and confirms Adidas deal - Hot 97 Why Rihanna Broke Barriers That Others Couldn’t - Trapital  Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Fri, 03 Jul 2020 20:48:32 -0000 The Steve Jobs of Gap? full 36 Dan Runcie An audio version of the Trapital essay: Why Kanye West’s Gap Deal is a Risk to Yeezy. Yeezy’s new partnership with the struggling apparel company is a threat to the brand that Kanye West built. Listen: | | | | | | Host: Dan Runcie, , ... An audio version of the Trapital essay: Why Kanye West’s Gap Deal is a Risk to Yeezy. Yeezy’s new partnership with the struggling apparel company is a threat to the brand that Kanye West built. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Link:    Why Kanye West’s Gap Deal is a Risk to Yeezy - Trapital Kanye describes his issues with Nike and confirms Adidas deal - Hot 97 Why Rihanna Broke Barriers That Others Couldn’t - Trapital  Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co An audio version of the Trapital essay: Why Kanye West’s Gap Deal is a Risk to Yeezy.

Yeezy’s new partnership with the struggling apparel company is a threat to the brand that Kanye West built.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Link: 

 

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 775 no Hovain Hylton and Busy Rivera on Cinematic Music Group’s Rise, and Turning the Brand into a Lifestyle https://trapital.libsyn.com/hovain-hylton-and-busy-rivera-on-cinematic-music-groups-rise-and-how-to-turn-a-record-label-into-a-lifestyle Cinematic Music Group’s President, Hovain Hylton and Head of Creative, Busy Rivera came through the Trapital Podcast to talk about leading the independent record label and management company, doing more with less than the major record labels, and managing the Cinematic brand like it’s one of their artists. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Hovain, @hovain  Busy Rivera, @busyrivera  Link:  Cinematic website Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Tue, 30 Jun 2020 14:45:14 -0000 Hovain Hylton and Busy Rivera on Cinematic Music Group’s Rise, and Turning the Brand into a Lifestyle full 35 Dan Runcie Cinematic Music Group’s President, Hovain Hylton and Head of Creative, Busy Rivera came through the Trapital Podcast to talk about leading the independent record label and management company, doing more with less than the major record labels, and... Cinematic Music Group’s President, Hovain Hylton and Head of Creative, Busy Rivera came through the Trapital Podcast to talk about leading the independent record label and management company, doing more with less than the major record labels, and managing the Cinematic brand like it’s one of their artists. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Hovain, @hovain  Busy Rivera, @busyrivera  Link:  Cinematic website Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Cinematic Music Group’s President, Hovain Hylton and Head of Creative, Busy Rivera came through the Trapital Podcast to talk about leading the independent record label and management company, doing more with less than the major record labels, and managing the Cinematic brand like it’s one of their artists.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest:

Link: 

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2236 no Build Your Table https://trapital.libsyn.com/build-your-table Another solo episode in light of recent events, and an audio version of this week’s Trapital article, “Why Ownership Matters More in Hip-Hop.” The system hasn’t always had hip-hop’s best interest at heart, so its artists are more likely to take control. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Link:  Why Ownership Matters More in Hip Hop Beyonce Commencement Speech | Dear Class of 2020 Cash Money Records Has a Bleak Future Without Drake and Lil’ Wayne Why Death Row Was Bound to Self-Destruct Spreadsheet: Hip Hop Statements - BLM 2020 Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Sun, 14 Jun 2020 17:38:36 -0000 Build Your Table full 34 Dan Runcie Another solo episode in light of recent events, and an audio version of this week’s Trapital article, “Why Ownership Matters More in Hip-Hop.” The system hasn’t always had hip-hop’s best interest at heart, so its artists are more likely to... Another solo episode in light of recent events, and an audio version of this week’s Trapital article, “Why Ownership Matters More in Hip-Hop.” The system hasn’t always had hip-hop’s best interest at heart, so its artists are more likely to take control. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Link:  Why Ownership Matters More in Hip Hop Beyonce Commencement Speech | Dear Class of 2020 Cash Money Records Has a Bleak Future Without Drake and Lil’ Wayne Why Death Row Was Bound to Self-Destruct Spreadsheet: Hip Hop Statements - BLM 2020 Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Another solo episode in light of recent events, and an audio version of this week’s Trapital article, “Why Ownership Matters More in Hip-Hop.”

The system hasn’t always had hip-hop’s best interest at heart, so its artists are more likely to take control.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Link: 


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 705 no Hip-Hop's Role in the Fight for Justice https://trapital.libsyn.com/hip-hops-role-in-the-fight-for-justice This Trapital Podcast is a solo episode in light of this week’s events, the music industry’s actions in the wake of George Floyd’s murder, and this week’s Trapital article, “How Hip-Hop Pushed Companies to Fight for Racial Justice.” Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Link:  Spreadsheet: Hip Hop Statements - BLM 2020 How Hip-Hop Pushed Companies to Fight for Racial Injustice Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Fri, 05 Jun 2020 17:03:16 -0000 Hip-Hop's Role in the Fight for Justice full 33 Dan Runcie This Trapital Podcast is a solo episode in light of this week’s events, the music industry’s actions in the wake of George Floyd’s murder, and this week’s Trapital article, “How Hip-Hop Pushed Companies to Fight for Racial Justice.”... This Trapital Podcast is a solo episode in light of this week’s events, the music industry’s actions in the wake of George Floyd’s murder, and this week’s Trapital article, “How Hip-Hop Pushed Companies to Fight for Racial Justice.” Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Link:  Spreadsheet: Hip Hop Statements - BLM 2020 How Hip-Hop Pushed Companies to Fight for Racial Injustice Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co This Trapital Podcast is a solo episode in light of this week’s events, the music industry’s actions in the wake of George Floyd’s murder, and this week’s Trapital article, “How Hip-Hop Pushed Companies to Fight for Racial Justice.”

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Link: 


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 789 no Trapital Mailbag #3: How Hip-Hop Makes Money in a Pandemic, Superproducers in the Streaming Era, What’s Next for Fortnite + Travis Scott, and more! https://trapital.libsyn.com/trapital-mailbag-3-how-hip-hop-makes-money-in-a-pandemic-superproducers-in-the-streaming-era-whats-next-for-fortnite-travis-scott-and-more Round 3! Here are the most pressing questions from Trapitalists: Do smaller indie acts fare better during the pandemic? Is Tekashi 6ix9ine worthy of a marketing case study? What’s next for Travis Scott + Fortnite? And a whole lot more. Tune in! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Link:  How Hip-Hop Producers Lost Their Power How Travis Scott Growth Hacked Hip-Hop Why Hip-Hop and Gaming are Still Scratching the Surface Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Tue, 12 May 2020 17:14:22 -0000 Trapital Mailbag #3: How Hip-Hop Makes Money in a Pandemic, Superproducers in the Streaming Era, What’s Next for Fortnite + Travis Scott, and more! full 32 Dan Runcie Round 3! Here are the most pressing questions from Trapitalists: Do smaller indie acts fare better during the pandemic? Is Tekashi 6ix9ine worthy of a marketing case study? What’s next for Travis Scott + Fortnite? And a whole lot more. Tune in!... Round 3! Here are the most pressing questions from Trapitalists: Do smaller indie acts fare better during the pandemic? Is Tekashi 6ix9ine worthy of a marketing case study? What’s next for Travis Scott + Fortnite? And a whole lot more. Tune in! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Link:  How Hip-Hop Producers Lost Their Power How Travis Scott Growth Hacked Hip-Hop Why Hip-Hop and Gaming are Still Scratching the Surface Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Round 3! Here are the most pressing questions from Trapitalists: Do smaller indie acts fare better during the pandemic? Is Tekashi 6ix9ine worthy of a marketing case study? What’s next for Travis Scott + Fortnite? And a whole lot more. Tune in!

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Link: 


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 1921 no Tiffany Ballard on Music Business Law, Why Bad Deals Still Happen, How She Made Connections on Myspace, and Her Time on Reality TV https://trapital.libsyn.com/tiffany-ballard-on-music-business-law-why-bad-deals-still-happen-how-she-made-connections-on-myspace-and-her-time-on-reality-tv Entertainment lawyer Tiffany Ballard came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how she rose in the music industry. She spoke about using Myspace to find career opportunities and discover artists like Nicki Minaj. We also spoke about bad record deals and why they still happen. Tiffany also revisited her brief time on the reality TV show Money Power, & Respect!  Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Tiffany Ballard, @BlackElleWoods  Link: Money, Power, & Respect - Meet Tiffany - WE tv Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Tue, 05 May 2020 16:02:32 -0000 Tiffany Ballard on Music Business Law, Why Bad Deals Still Happen, How She Made Connections on Myspace, and Her Time on Reality TV full 32 Dan Runcie Entertainment lawyer Tiffany Ballard came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how she rose in the music industry. She spoke about using Myspace to find career opportunities and discover artists like Nicki Minaj. We also spoke about bad record deals... Entertainment lawyer Tiffany Ballard came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how she rose in the music industry. She spoke about using Myspace to find career opportunities and discover artists like Nicki Minaj. We also spoke about bad record deals and why they still happen. Tiffany also revisited her brief time on the reality TV show Money Power, & Respect!  Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Tiffany Ballard, @BlackElleWoods  Link: Money, Power, & Respect - Meet Tiffany - WE tv Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co Entertainment lawyer Tiffany Ballard came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how she rose in the music industry. She spoke about using Myspace to find career opportunities and discover artists like Nicki Minaj. We also spoke about bad record deals and why they still happen. Tiffany also revisited her brief time on the reality TV show Money Power, & Respect! 

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co
Guest: Tiffany Ballard, @BlackElleWoods 

Link: Money, Power, & Respect - Meet Tiffany - WE tv

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co

]]> 2554 no Zack O'Malley Greenburg (2019) https://trapital.libsyn.com/zack-omalley-greenburg-2019 Since Kanye West is now a billionaire, let's revisit the podcast I recorded in September with Zack O’Malley Greenburg, Senior Editor of Media & Entertainment at Forbes. We talked about Forbes’ annual Hip-Hop Cash List, why artists like Cardi B and Meek Mill who question the results, the integrity challenges with self-reported data, and the amount of work that goes into reporting a single number. Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog, forbes.com/sites/zackomalleygreenburg Links referenced: Article: Kanye West is Now Officially a Billionaire (and He Really Wants the World to Know) - Forbes Article: Highest Paid Hip-Hop Acts 2019: Kanye Tops Jay Z to Claim Crown - Forbes Article: Kanye’s Second Coming: Inside the Billion-Dollar Yeezy Empire - Forbes Article: Artist, Icon, Billionaire: How Jay-Z Created His $1 Billion Fortune - Forbes Twitter: Cardi B, Meek Mill, “Pee” from Quality Control Music Article: Why Cardi B Doesn’t Need to Go on Tour - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:58:49 -0000 Zack O'Malley Greenburg (2019) full 31 Dan Runcie Since Kanye West is now a billionaire, let's revisit the podcast I recorded in September with Zack O’Malley Greenburg, Senior Editor of Media & Entertainment at Forbes. We talked about Forbes’ annual Hip-Hop Cash List, why artists like... Since Kanye West is now a billionaire, let's revisit the podcast I recorded in September with Zack O’Malley Greenburg, Senior Editor of Media & Entertainment at Forbes. We talked about Forbes’ annual Hip-Hop Cash List, why artists like Cardi B and Meek Mill who question the results, the integrity challenges with self-reported data, and the amount of work that goes into reporting a single number. Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog, forbes.com/sites/zackomalleygreenburg Links referenced: Article: Kanye West is Now Officially a Billionaire (and He Really Wants the World to Know) - Forbes Article: Highest Paid Hip-Hop Acts 2019: Kanye Tops Jay Z to Claim Crown - Forbes Article: Kanye’s Second Coming: Inside the Billion-Dollar Yeezy Empire - Forbes Article: Artist, Icon, Billionaire: How Jay-Z Created His $1 Billion Fortune - Forbes Twitter: Cardi B, Meek Mill, “Pee” from Quality Control Music Article: Why Cardi B Doesn’t Need to Go on Tour - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Since Kanye West is now a billionaire, let's revisit the podcast I recorded in September with Zack O’Malley Greenburg, Senior Editor of Media & Entertainment at Forbes. We talked about Forbes’ annual Hip-Hop Cash List, why artists like Cardi B and Meek Mill who question the results, the integrity challenges with self-reported data, and the amount of work that goes into reporting a single number.

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog, forbes.com/sites/zackomalleygreenburg

Links referenced:


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist.

]]> 2144 no Ibrahim "Ib" Hamad on Building Dreamville, Managing J. Cole, the Dollar & a Dream Tour, and Starting the Dreamville Fest https://trapital.libsyn.com/ibrahim-hamad-on-building-dreamville-managing-j-cole-the-dollar-a-dream-tour-and-starting-the-dreamville-fest Dreamville co-founder and President, and J. Cole’s manager Ibrahim "Ib" Hamad came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how him and J. Cole started Dreamville and how it became what it is today. Ib also broke down what changed for Dreamville in 2014, the impact that the Dollar & a Dream tour had on J. Cole’s career, establishing the Dreamville brand beyond J. Cole, and why the Dreamville Fest has nine lives! If you wanna know what it takes to get to that next level, this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Ibrahim "Ib" Hamad, @KingOfQueenz, dreamville.com Link:  J. Cole is Still Making Millions From a $1 Million Concert - Trapital Dreamville Fest - August 29, 2019 - Dreamville Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Tue, 14 Apr 2020 16:22:22 -0000 Ibrahim "Ib" Hamad on Building Dreamville, Managing J. Cole, the Dollar & a Dream Tour, and Starting the Dreamville Fest full 30 Dan Runcie Dreamville co-founder and President, and J. Cole’s manager Ibrahim "Ib" Hamad came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how him and J. Cole started Dreamville and how it became what it is today. Ib also broke down what changed for Dreamville in... Dreamville co-founder and President, and J. Cole’s manager Ibrahim "Ib" Hamad came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how him and J. Cole started Dreamville and how it became what it is today. Ib also broke down what changed for Dreamville in 2014, the impact that the Dollar & a Dream tour had on J. Cole’s career, establishing the Dreamville brand beyond J. Cole, and why the Dreamville Fest has nine lives! If you wanna know what it takes to get to that next level, this is the episode for you. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Ibrahim "Ib" Hamad, @KingOfQueenz, dreamville.com Link:  J. Cole is Still Making Millions From a $1 Million Concert - Trapital Dreamville Fest - August 29, 2019 - Dreamville Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Dreamville co-founder and President, and J. Cole’s manager Ibrahim "Ib" Hamad came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how him and J. Cole started Dreamville and how it became what it is today. Ib also broke down what changed for Dreamville in 2014, the impact that the Dollar & a Dream tour had on J. Cole’s career, establishing the Dreamville brand beyond J. Cole, and why the Dreamville Fest has nine lives!

If you wanna know what it takes to get to that next level, this is the episode for you.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co
Guest: Ibrahim "Ib" Hamad, @KingOfQueenz, dreamville.com

Link: 

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome

]]> 2769 no Shawn Prez on the Bad Boy Street Team, Grassroots Marketing in Hip-Hop, and Starting the Global Spin Awards https://trapital.libsyn.com/shawn-prez-on-the-bad-boy-street-team-grassroots-marketing-in-hip-hop-and-starting-the-global-spin-awards Music and marketing executive Shawn Prez came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about his days as Bad Boy’s VP of Marketing, what set Bad Boy’s Street Team apart, breaking hit records, the Ciroc Boyz, his work at Power Moves Inc., and why he decided to launch an award shows to recognize DJs. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Shawn Prez, @powermovesprez, powermovesprez.com Link:  Ciroc Boyz - Power Moves Inc. Black Rob - “Whoa” Global Spin Awards Power Moves with Shawn Prez - YouTube Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Tue, 07 Apr 2020 14:27:46 -0000 Shawn Prez on the Bad Boy Street Team, Grassroots Marketing in Hip-Hop, and Starting the Global Spin Awards full 29 Dan Runcie Music and marketing executive Shawn Prez came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about his days as Bad Boy’s VP of Marketing, what set Bad Boy’s Street Team apart, breaking hit records, the Ciroc Boyz, his work at Power Moves Inc., and why he decided... Music and marketing executive Shawn Prez came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about his days as Bad Boy’s VP of Marketing, what set Bad Boy’s Street Team apart, breaking hit records, the Ciroc Boyz, his work at Power Moves Inc., and why he decided to launch an award shows to recognize DJs. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Shawn Prez, @powermovesprez, powermovesprez.com Link:  Ciroc Boyz - Power Moves Inc. Black Rob - “Whoa” Global Spin Awards Power Moves with Shawn Prez - YouTube Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Music and marketing executive Shawn Prez came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about his days as Bad Boy’s VP of Marketing, what set Bad Boy’s Street Team apart, breaking hit records, the Ciroc Boyz, his work at Power Moves Inc., and why he decided to launch an award shows to recognize DJs.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co
Guest: Shawn Prez, @powermovesprez, powermovesprez.com

Link: 

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome

]]> 2908 no Hannibal Buress on How Netflix Changed Comedy, His Investing Strategy, and Why Isola Fest is One of His Favorite Career Moments https://trapital.libsyn.com/hannibal-buress-on-how-netflix-changed-comedy-his-investing-strategy-and-why-isola-fest-is-one-of-his-favorite-career-moments The hilarious comedian Hannibal Buress came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how he’s adjusted to quarantine life, how he prioritizes his multiple business interests (touring, comedy specials, acting, investing), Netflix’s impact on comedy specials, planning a music festival on three weeks notice (!!!), why he wishes he got into the toilet paper business, and what’s in store for 2020. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Hannibal Buress, @hannibalburess, hannibalburess.com Link:  Isola Fest - Hannibal Buress Handsome Rambler Podcast - Hannibal Buress Hannibal’s thoughts on the toilet paper business - Comedy Camisado, Hannibal Buress I.B.S. - Cam’Ron (2006, Killa Season) Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Tue, 31 Mar 2020 14:58:24 -0000 Hannibal Buress on How Netflix Changed Comedy, His Investing Strategy, and Why Isola Fest is One of His Favorite Career Moments full 28 Dan Runcie The hilarious comedian Hannibal Buress came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how he’s adjusted to quarantine life, how he prioritizes his multiple business interests (touring, comedy specials, acting, investing), Netflix’s impact on comedy... The hilarious comedian Hannibal Buress came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how he’s adjusted to quarantine life, how he prioritizes his multiple business interests (touring, comedy specials, acting, investing), Netflix’s impact on comedy specials, planning a music festival on three weeks notice (!!!), why he wishes he got into the toilet paper business, and what’s in store for 2020. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Hannibal Buress, @hannibalburess, hannibalburess.com Link:  Isola Fest - Hannibal Buress Handsome Rambler Podcast - Hannibal Buress Hannibal’s thoughts on the toilet paper business - Comedy Camisado, Hannibal Buress I.B.S. - Cam’Ron (2006, Killa Season) Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome The hilarious comedian Hannibal Buress came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about how he’s adjusted to quarantine life, how he prioritizes his multiple business interests (touring, comedy specials, acting, investing), Netflix’s impact on comedy specials, planning a music festival on three weeks notice (!!!), why he wishes he got into the toilet paper business, and what’s in store for 2020.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co
Guest: Hannibal Buress, @hannibalburess, hannibalburess.com

Link: 

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome

]]> 2700 no Mike Weissman - President, SoundCloud (2019) https://trapital.libsyn.com/mike-weissman-president-soundcloud-2019 Mike Weissman, President of SoundCloud, came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about the streaming company’s business model, how it compares to a tech accelerator, SoundCloud’s growth in the Middle East, SoundCloud rap, and what sets the company apart from its competitors. (Originally published November 11, 2019) Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest:  Mike Weissman, @soundcloud, soundcloud.com Links referenced:   WIRED: As Streaming Services Boom, SoundCloud Strives for Relevancy (2017) Trapital: Why Hip-Hop Can Help Venture Capital Navigate Changes in the Industry (2019) Trapital: Why Streaming Services are Here to Stay (2019) SoundCloud: On Tuesday We Presented Lil’ Tecca with our First-Ever Chart-Topper Award (2019) – The sneakers are on this link!   Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Thu, 26 Mar 2020 17:48:50 -0000 Mike Weissman - President, SoundCloud (2019) full 27 Dan Runcie Mike Weissman, President of SoundCloud, came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about the streaming company’s business model, how it compares to a tech accelerator, SoundCloud’s growth in the Middle East, SoundCloud rap, and what sets the company... Mike Weissman, President of SoundCloud, came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about the streaming company’s business model, how it compares to a tech accelerator, SoundCloud’s growth in the Middle East, SoundCloud rap, and what sets the company apart from its competitors. (Originally published November 11, 2019) Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest:  Mike Weissman, @soundcloud, soundcloud.com Links referenced:   WIRED: As Streaming Services Boom, SoundCloud Strives for Relevancy (2017) Trapital: Why Hip-Hop Can Help Venture Capital Navigate Changes in the Industry (2019) Trapital: Why Streaming Services are Here to Stay (2019) SoundCloud: On Tuesday We Presented Lil’ Tecca with our First-Ever Chart-Topper Award (2019) – The sneakers are on this link!   Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Mike Weissman, President of SoundCloud, came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about the streaming company’s business model, how it compares to a tech accelerator, SoundCloud’s growth in the Middle East, SoundCloud rap, and what sets the company apart from its competitors. (Originally published November 11, 2019)

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co
Guest:  Mike Weissman, @soundcloud, soundcloud.com

Links referenced:

 

 

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist.

]]> 2202 no Akin Aliu - Music Touring Agent, CAA (2019) https://trapital.libsyn.com/akin-aliu-music-touring-agent-caa-2019 CAA music touring agent Akin Aliu came on the pod to talk about the BET Awards, representing Ciara, Freddie Gibbs, and Becky G, the NCAA’s “Rich Paul Rule,” and why agents break out on their own. (Originally published October 21, 2019) Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Akin Aliu, @caamusic Links referenced:   Article: Why Choosing the Right Concert Venue Matters – Trapital   Article: Why Cardi B Doesn’t Need to Go On Tour – Trapital ESPN: NCAA amend “Rich Paul Rule” amid blowback     Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Tue, 17 Mar 2020 14:24:47 -0000 Akin Aliu - Music Touring Agent, CAA (2019) full 26 Dan Runcie CAA music touring agent Akin Aliu came on the pod to talk about the BET Awards, representing Ciara, Freddie Gibbs, and Becky G, the NCAA’s “Rich Paul Rule,” and why agents break out on their own. (Originally published October 21, 2019) Listen: ... CAA music touring agent Akin Aliu came on the pod to talk about the BET Awards, representing Ciara, Freddie Gibbs, and Becky G, the NCAA’s “Rich Paul Rule,” and why agents break out on their own. (Originally published October 21, 2019) Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Akin Aliu, @caamusic Links referenced:   Article: Why Choosing the Right Concert Venue Matters – Trapital   Article: Why Cardi B Doesn’t Need to Go On Tour – Trapital ESPN: NCAA amend “Rich Paul Rule” amid blowback     Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. CAA music touring agent Akin Aliu came on the pod to talk about the BET Awards, representing Ciara, Freddie Gibbs, and Becky G, the NCAA’s “Rich Paul Rule,” and why agents break out on their own. (Originally published October 21, 2019)

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co
Guest: Akin Aliu, @caamusic

Links referenced:

 

 

 

 

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist.

]]> 2455 no James Supreme - A&R at Universal Music Publishing Group (2019) https://trapital.libsyn.com/james-supreme-ar-at-universal-music-publishing-group-2019 James Supreme, A&R at Universal Music Publishing Group, came on the pod to talk about his role in Lil’ Nas X’s second hit song “Panini”, the differences managing black rappers and white rappers, working with Beyonce’s Parkwood Entertainment team on The Lion King: The Gift, and why mental health matters in the music industry. (Originally published October 10, 2019) Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: James Supreme, @jamessupreme Links referenced: Article: How Lil’ Nas X’s Success Will Impact Hip-Hop - Trapital Article: White Rappers and Black Rappers Have Different Business Models - Trapital Article: What Chance the Rapper Gets Wrong About Ownership - Trapital Article: How Do You Follow Up ‘Old Town Road?’ If You’re Lil’ Nas, You Don’t Try - Rolling Stone Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:19:50 -0000 James Supreme - A&R at Universal Music Publishing Group (2019) full 25 Dan Runcie James Supreme, A&R at Universal Music Publishing Group, came on the pod to talk about his role in Lil’ Nas X’s second hit song “Panini”, the differences managing black rappers and white rappers, working with Beyonce’s Parkwood... James Supreme, A&R at Universal Music Publishing Group, came on the pod to talk about his role in Lil’ Nas X’s second hit song “Panini”, the differences managing black rappers and white rappers, working with Beyonce’s Parkwood Entertainment team on The Lion King: The Gift, and why mental health matters in the music industry. (Originally published October 10, 2019) Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: James Supreme, @jamessupreme Links referenced: Article: How Lil’ Nas X’s Success Will Impact Hip-Hop - Trapital Article: White Rappers and Black Rappers Have Different Business Models - Trapital Article: What Chance the Rapper Gets Wrong About Ownership - Trapital Article: How Do You Follow Up ‘Old Town Road?’ If You’re Lil’ Nas, You Don’t Try - Rolling Stone Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. James Supreme, A&R at Universal Music Publishing Group, came on the pod to talk about his role in Lil’ Nas X’s second hit song “Panini”, the differences managing black rappers and white rappers, working with Beyonce’s Parkwood Entertainment team on The Lion King: The Gift, and why mental health matters in the music industry.

(Originally published October 10, 2019)

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: James Supreme, @jamessupreme

Links referenced:

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist.

]]> 2660 no Trapital Mailbag #2! D-Smoke’s Potential, Lovers & Friends Fest, Jay Z the Wartime Leader, The Cost of Album Bundles, and Def Jam…oh Def Jam https://trapital.libsyn.com/trapital-mailbag-2-d-smokes-potential-lovers-friends-fest-jay-z-the-wartime-leader-the-cost-of-album-bundles-and-def-jamoh-def-jam This is Round 2! Here are the most pressing questions from Trapitalists: How successful will the Lovers & Friends Fest be? Was Jay Z’s tenure as Def Jam CEO a success? Should artists bundle albums with digital products to reduce costs? My thoughts on Mr. Eazi’s music incubator in Nigeria? Will Travisbott lead to a producer-less future? And a whole lot more. Tune in! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coLink:  Trapital Mailbag #1: Grammy Awards Woes, Young Rappers Most Likely to Become Moguls, and Thoughts on a Rappers Union - Trapital How Travis Scott Growth-Hacked Hip-Hop - Trapital How Billboard Can Fix the Album Bundles Issue - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Want in on the next mailbag? Learn more here: trapital.co/membership Tue, 03 Mar 2020 15:47:53 -0000 Trapital Mailbag #2! D-Smoke’s Potential, Lovers & Friends Fest, Jay Z the Wartime Leader, The Cost of Album Bundles, and Def Jam…oh Def Jam full 24 Dan Runcie This is Round 2! Here are the most pressing questions from Trapitalists: How successful will the Lovers & Friends Fest be? Was Jay Z’s tenure as Def Jam CEO a success? Should artists bundle albums with digital products to reduce costs? My... This is Round 2! Here are the most pressing questions from Trapitalists: How successful will the Lovers & Friends Fest be? Was Jay Z’s tenure as Def Jam CEO a success? Should artists bundle albums with digital products to reduce costs? My thoughts on Mr. Eazi’s music incubator in Nigeria? Will Travisbott lead to a producer-less future? And a whole lot more. Tune in! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coLink:  Trapital Mailbag #1: Grammy Awards Woes, Young Rappers Most Likely to Become Moguls, and Thoughts on a Rappers Union - Trapital How Travis Scott Growth-Hacked Hip-Hop - Trapital How Billboard Can Fix the Album Bundles Issue - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Want in on the next mailbag? Learn more here: trapital.co/membership This is Round 2! Here are the most pressing questions from Trapitalists: How successful will the Lovers & Friends Fest be? Was Jay Z’s tenure as Def Jam CEO a success? Should artists bundle albums with digital products to reduce costs? My thoughts on Mr. Eazi’s music incubator in Nigeria? Will Travisbott lead to a producer-less future? And a whole lot more. Tune in!

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Link: 

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome

Want in on the next mailbag? Learn more here: trapital.co/membership

]]> 1853 no Lynzie Riebling on Gen Hip Hop, Quantifying the Power of the Hip-Hop Audience, and REVOLT’s Role in the Culture https://trapital.libsyn.com/lynzie-riebling-on-gen-hip-hop-insights-on-hip-hops-audience-and-revolts-role-in-the-culture REVOLT’s VP of Insights & Strategy Lynzie Riebling came through to talk about Revolt’s new study Gen Hip Hop, key findings from the study (did you know gen hip hop has a buying power of $438 billion?!), why this work matters, Revolt’s competition, and more. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Lynzie Riebling, @hilynzie, revolt.tv Link:  genhiphopstudy.com - Order a copy of the report. It’s free!Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Tue, 25 Feb 2020 04:17:58 -0000 Lynzie Riebling on Gen Hip Hop, Quantifying the Power of the Hip-Hop Audience, and REVOLT’s Role in the Culture full 23 Dan Runcie REVOLT’s VP of Insights & Strategy Lynzie Riebling came through to talk about Revolt’s new study Gen Hip Hop, key findings from the study (did you know gen hip hop has a buying power of $438 billion?!), why this work matters, Revolt’s... REVOLT’s VP of Insights & Strategy Lynzie Riebling came through to talk about Revolt’s new study Gen Hip Hop, key findings from the study (did you know gen hip hop has a buying power of $438 billion?!), why this work matters, Revolt’s competition, and more. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Lynzie Riebling, @hilynzie, revolt.tv Link:  genhiphopstudy.com - Order a copy of the report. It’s free!Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome REVOLT’s VP of Insights & Strategy Lynzie Riebling came through to talk about Revolt’s new study Gen Hip Hop, key findings from the study (did you know gen hip hop has a buying power of $438 billion?!), why this work matters, Revolt’s competition, and more.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co
Guest: Lynzie Riebling, @hilynzie, revolt.tv

Link:  genhiphopstudy.com - Order a copy of the report. It’s free!

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome

]]> 2660 no Karl Fowlkes on Music Business Law, Combat Jack’s Influence, and Why He Hopes There are Less Lawyers in 20 Years https://trapital.libsyn.com/karl-fowlkes-on-music-business-law-combat-jacks-influence-and-why-he-hopes-there-are-less-lawyers-in-20-years The Fowlkes Firm founder and music business professor Karl Fowlkes talked about his experience as an entertainment lawyer, why he fights for producers rights, music publishing exams, trends in digital streaming, the late Combat Jack (Reggie Ossé), and his series “The Courtroom.” Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Karl Fowlkes, @esqfowlkes, elawandbusiness.com Links: Free Music Publishing Exam - The Fowlkes Firm The Courtroom - Karl Fowlkes (YouTube) Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Tue, 18 Feb 2020 15:19:52 -0000 Karl Fowlkes on Music Business Law, Combat Jack’s Influence, and Why He Hopes There are Less Lawyers in 20 Years full 22 Dan Runcie The Fowlkes Firm founder and music business professor Karl Fowlkes talked about his experience as an entertainment lawyer, why he fights for producers rights, music publishing exams, trends in digital streaming, the late Combat Jack (Reggie Ossé),... The Fowlkes Firm founder and music business professor Karl Fowlkes talked about his experience as an entertainment lawyer, why he fights for producers rights, music publishing exams, trends in digital streaming, the late Combat Jack (Reggie Ossé), and his series “The Courtroom.” Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Karl Fowlkes, @esqfowlkes, elawandbusiness.com Links: Free Music Publishing Exam - The Fowlkes Firm The Courtroom - Karl Fowlkes (YouTube) Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome The Fowlkes Firm founder and music business professor Karl Fowlkes talked about his experience as an entertainment lawyer, why he fights for producers rights, music publishing exams, trends in digital streaming, the late Combat Jack (Reggie Ossé), and his series “The Courtroom.”

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co
Guest: Karl Fowlkes, @esqfowlkes, elawandbusiness.com

Links:

Free Music Publishing Exam - The Fowlkes Firm

The Courtroom - Karl Fowlkes (YouTube)

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome

]]> 2761 no Jesse Kirshbaum on Nue Agency's Brand Marketing, #CRWN Interview Series, and the Future of Award Shows https://trapital.libsyn.com/jesse-kirshbaum-on-nue-agencys-brand-marketing-crwn-interview-series-and-the-future-of-award-shows Nue Agency Founder and CEO Jesse Kirshbaum talked about his company’s transition from talent to brand partnerships. We also talked about his brand activation deals with Sour Patch Kids and Tidal, The Grammys, the Super Bowl Halftime Show, upcoming awards shows, and more. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Jesse Kirshbaum, @jessekay, nueagency.com Links: The Patch South Patch Kids brand partnership - Nue Agency #CRWN partnership with Nue Agency - Nue Agency A Conversation with Elliot Wilson & Meek Mill - Tidal Grammys PostGame - Beats and Bytes newsletter Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:33:42 -0000 Jesse Kirshbaum on Nue Agency's Brand Marketing, #CRWN Interview Series, and the Future of Award Shows full 21 Dan Runcie Nue Agency Founder and CEO Jesse Kirshbaum talked about his company’s transition from talent to brand partnerships. We also talked about his brand activation deals with Sour Patch Kids and Tidal, The Grammys, the Super Bowl Halftime Show, upcoming... Nue Agency Founder and CEO Jesse Kirshbaum talked about his company’s transition from talent to brand partnerships. We also talked about his brand activation deals with Sour Patch Kids and Tidal, The Grammys, the Super Bowl Halftime Show, upcoming awards shows, and more. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Jesse Kirshbaum, @jessekay, nueagency.com Links: The Patch South Patch Kids brand partnership - Nue Agency #CRWN partnership with Nue Agency - Nue Agency A Conversation with Elliot Wilson & Meek Mill - Tidal Grammys PostGame - Beats and Bytes newsletter Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Nue Agency Founder and CEO Jesse Kirshbaum talked about his company’s transition from talent to brand partnerships. We also talked about his brand activation deals with Sour Patch Kids and Tidal, The Grammys, the Super Bowl Halftime Show, upcoming awards shows, and more.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co
Guest: Jesse Kirshbaum, @jessekay, nueagency.com

Links:

The Patch South Patch Kids brand partnership - Nue Agency

#CRWN partnership with Nue Agency - Nue Agency

A Conversation with Elliot Wilson & Meek Mill - Tidal

Grammys PostGame - Beats and Bytes newsletter


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome

]]> 2749 no Tarik Brooks on Combs Enterprises, Diddy’s Investment Strategy, and Managing a Portfolio of Brands https://trapital.libsyn.com/tarik-brooks-on-combs-enterprises-diddys-investment-strategy-and-managing-a-portfolio-of-brands Combs Enterprises COO Tarik Brooks came on the Trapital Podcast to talk his role managing the Combs Enterprises portfolio of brands, which includes Ciroc, Bad Boy Entertainment, Revolt, Sean John, AquaHydrate, and more. We talked about how to measure Diddy’s value-add as an investor, Tarik’s experience working for both Diddy and Robert L. Johnson, and why Diddy sought mentorship from Ray Dalio, and more. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Tarik Brooks, @tarikamin, combsenterprises.com/tarik-brooks/ Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Tue, 04 Feb 2020 19:35:36 -0000 Tarik Brooks on Combs Enterprises, Diddy’s Investment Strategy, and Managing a Portfolio of Brands full 20 Dan Runcie Combs Enterprises COO Tarik Brooks came on the Trapital Podcast to talk his role managing the Combs Enterprises portfolio of brands, which includes Ciroc, Bad Boy Entertainment, Revolt, Sean John, AquaHydrate, and more. We talked about how to measure... Combs Enterprises COO Tarik Brooks came on the Trapital Podcast to talk his role managing the Combs Enterprises portfolio of brands, which includes Ciroc, Bad Boy Entertainment, Revolt, Sean John, AquaHydrate, and more. We talked about how to measure Diddy’s value-add as an investor, Tarik’s experience working for both Diddy and Robert L. Johnson, and why Diddy sought mentorship from Ray Dalio, and more. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Tarik Brooks, @tarikamin, combsenterprises.com/tarik-brooks/ Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Combs Enterprises COO Tarik Brooks came on the Trapital Podcast to talk his role managing the Combs Enterprises portfolio of brands, which includes Ciroc, Bad Boy Entertainment, Revolt, Sean John, AquaHydrate, and more. We talked about how to measure Diddy’s value-add as an investor, Tarik’s experience working for both Diddy and Robert L. Johnson, and why Diddy sought mentorship from Ray Dalio, and more.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co
Guest: Tarik Brooks, @tarikamin, combsenterprises.com/tarik-brooks/


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome

]]> 2704 no Steve Stoute on UnitedMasters, Partnership with Apple Music, Ownership in Hip-Hop, and Why Brands Value Indie Artists  https://trapital.libsyn.com/steve-stoute-on-unitedmasters-a-new-deal-with-apple-music-ownership-in-hip-hop-and-why-brands-value-indie-artists UnitedMasters and Translation CEO Steve Stoute came through the Trapital Podcast to talk with Dan Runcie about ownership in hip-hop, why the music distribution company partnered with the NBA, Apple Music, and NBA 2K. We also talked about brands that use phrases like “Hot Girl Summer,” why his work at UnitedMasters is gratifying, and why he’s still in the second inning of building this company. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Steve Stoute, @stevestoute, @unitedmasters, unitedmasters.com Links Apple Music, NBA Strike Deal for Playlist, Songs in Highlights - Bloomberg With $70M from Alphabet, UnitedMasters replaces record labels - TechCrunch 2014 Michigan Ross Alfred L. Edwards Black Business Students Association Conference Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Mon, 27 Jan 2020 05:43:43 -0000 Steve Stoute on UnitedMasters, Partnership with Apple Music, Ownership in Hip-Hop, and Why Brands Value Indie Artists  full 19 Dan Runcie UnitedMasters and Translation CEO Steve Stoute came through the Trapital Podcast to talk with Dan Runcie about ownership in hip-hop, why the music distribution company partnered with the NBA, Apple Music, and NBA 2K. We also talked about brands that... UnitedMasters and Translation CEO Steve Stoute came through the Trapital Podcast to talk with Dan Runcie about ownership in hip-hop, why the music distribution company partnered with the NBA, Apple Music, and NBA 2K. We also talked about brands that use phrases like “Hot Girl Summer,” why his work at UnitedMasters is gratifying, and why he’s still in the second inning of building this company. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Steve Stoute, @stevestoute, @unitedmasters, unitedmasters.com Links Apple Music, NBA Strike Deal for Playlist, Songs in Highlights - Bloomberg With $70M from Alphabet, UnitedMasters replaces record labels - TechCrunch 2014 Michigan Ross Alfred L. Edwards Black Business Students Association Conference Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome UnitedMasters and Translation CEO Steve Stoute came through the Trapital Podcast to talk with Dan Runcie about ownership in hip-hop, why the music distribution company partnered with the NBA, Apple Music, and NBA 2K. We also talked about brands that use phrases like “Hot Girl Summer,” why his work at UnitedMasters is gratifying, and why he’s still in the second inning of building this company.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co
Guest: Steve Stoute, @stevestoute, @unitedmasters, unitedmasters.com

Links

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome

]]> 1875 no Fantasy Record Labels? We’re Skeptical. (a Trapital - Water & Music Collaboration with Cherie Hu) https://trapital.libsyn.com/fantasy-record-labels-were-skeptical-a-trapital-water-music-collaboration-with-cherie-hu Water & Music creator and music journalist Cherie Hu came on the Trapital Podcast to discuss why “fantasy football for music” hasn’t taken off. Her and I did a mutual newsletter takeover where we both researched the topic and wrote separate articles in each other’s newsletter. On this podcast, we recapped our findings, and shared key reasons why the concept is limited in its reach. We also had some fun and answered a popular meme on how we would spend our $15 if we’re drafting a record label. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Cherie Hu, @cheriehu42, cheriehu.com Links So you want to be a music mogul: The future of fantasy record labels - Cherie Hu in Trapital Why “fantasy football for music” has struggled - Dan Runcie in Water & Music FanLabel -  your fantasy record label where you can compete in daily music contests with songs by big name artists and brand-new acts. Water & Music newsletter sign-up Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Tue, 21 Jan 2020 15:31:33 -0000 Fantasy Record Labels? We’re Skeptical. (a Trapital - Water & Music Collaboration with Cherie Hu) full 18 Dan Runcie Water & Music creator and music journalist Cherie Hu came on the Trapital Podcast to discuss why “fantasy football for music” hasn’t taken off. Her and I did a mutual newsletter takeover where we both researched the topic and wrote separate... Water & Music creator and music journalist Cherie Hu came on the Trapital Podcast to discuss why “fantasy football for music” hasn’t taken off. Her and I did a mutual newsletter takeover where we both researched the topic and wrote separate articles in each other’s newsletter. On this podcast, we recapped our findings, and shared key reasons why the concept is limited in its reach. We also had some fun and answered a popular meme on how we would spend our $15 if we’re drafting a record label. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Cherie Hu, @cheriehu42, cheriehu.com Links So you want to be a music mogul: The future of fantasy record labels - Cherie Hu in Trapital Why “fantasy football for music” has struggled - Dan Runcie in Water & Music FanLabel -  your fantasy record label where you can compete in daily music contests with songs by big name artists and brand-new acts. Water & Music newsletter sign-up Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Water & Music creator and music journalist Cherie Hu came on the Trapital Podcast to discuss why “fantasy football for music” hasn’t taken off. Her and I did a mutual newsletter takeover where we both researched the topic and wrote separate articles in each other’s newsletter. On this podcast, we recapped our findings, and shared key reasons why the concept is limited in its reach. We also had some fun and answered a popular meme on how we would spend our $15 if we’re drafting a record label.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co
Guest: Cherie Hu, @cheriehu42, cheriehu.com

Links

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome

]]> 2814 no Milana Lewis on Stem’s Artist-First Strategy, How it Evolves in the Streaming Era, How the Company Makes Tough Decisions https://trapital.libsyn.com/milana-lewis-on-stems-artist-first-strategy-how-it-evolves-in-the-streaming-era-how-the-company-makes-tough-decisions Stem CEO and co-founder Milana Lewis came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about Stem’s role as a music distributor, how it worked with Frank Ocean and Childish Gambino, business decisions that impacted the artist community, diversity in the music industry, and why some record labels deals make sense. Don’t miss it! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Milana Lewis, @milana, stem.is Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Mon, 16 Dec 2019 16:36:37 -0000 Milana Lewis on Stem’s Artist-First Strategy, How it Evolves in the Streaming Era, How the Company Makes Tough Decisions full 17 Dan Runcie Stem CEO and co-founder Milana Lewis came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about Stem’s role as a music distributor, how it worked with Frank Ocean and Childish Gambino, business decisions that impacted the artist community, diversity in the music... Stem CEO and co-founder Milana Lewis came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about Stem’s role as a music distributor, how it worked with Frank Ocean and Childish Gambino, business decisions that impacted the artist community, diversity in the music industry, and why some record labels deals make sense. Don’t miss it! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Milana Lewis, @milana, stem.is Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome Stem CEO and co-founder Milana Lewis came on the Trapital Podcast to talk about Stem’s role as a music distributor, how it worked with Frank Ocean and Childish Gambino, business decisions that impacted the artist community, diversity in the music industry, and why some record labels deals make sense. Don’t miss it!

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co
Guest: Milana Lewis, @milana, stem.is

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Learn how it impacts your business. Join the execs, CEOs, and moguls who read Trapital: trapital.co/welcome

]]> 2847 no Trapital Mailbag Special: Grammy Awards Woes, Young Rappers Most Likely to Become Moguls, and Thoughts on a Rappers Union https://trapital.libsyn.com/trapital-mailbag-special-grammy-awards-woes-young-rappers-most-likely-to-become-moguls-and-thoughts-on-a-rappers-union I answered some of the most-pressing questions from Trapital Members: Should the digital streaming providers invest in e-commerce? Are the Spotify Awards a step-in-the-right-direction to recognize global music or will it be more of the same? Will rappers surpass NBA players as the best sneaker endorsers? Don’t miss this one! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Want to participate in the next Mailbag? Become a Trapital Member: trapital.co/membership Tue, 26 Nov 2019 23:07:41 -0000 Trapital Mailbag Special: Grammy Awards Woes, Young Rappers Most Likely to Become Moguls, and Thoughts on a Rappers Union full 16 Dan Runcie I answered some of the most-pressing questions from Trapital Members: Should the digital streaming providers invest in e-commerce? Are the Spotify Awards a step-in-the-right-direction to recognize global music or will it be more of the same? Will... I answered some of the most-pressing questions from Trapital Members: Should the digital streaming providers invest in e-commerce? Are the Spotify Awards a step-in-the-right-direction to recognize global music or will it be more of the same? Will rappers surpass NBA players as the best sneaker endorsers? Don’t miss this one! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Want to participate in the next Mailbag? Become a Trapital Member: trapital.co/membership I answered some of the most-pressing questions from Trapital Members:

Should the digital streaming providers invest in e-commerce? Are the Spotify Awards a step-in-the-right-direction to recognize global music or will it be more of the same? Will rappers surpass NBA players as the best sneaker endorsers? Don’t miss this one!

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co


Want to participate in the next Mailbag? Become a Trapital Member: trapital.co/membership

]]> 1906 no Why Netflix's 'Rhythm + Flow' Was a Hit https://trapital.libsyn.com/what-netflix-got-right-with-rhythm-flow Ace “Call Me Ace” Patterson came back on the pod to break down Netflix’s Rhythm + Flow. We talked about what worked, what didn’t, how the hip-hop competition show compares to American Idol and Making the Band, and what we expect from Netflix next season! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest:  Ace Patterson, @callmeacelegit, airplanemode.callmeace.com Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Learn more about Trapital. Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:57:58 -0000 Why Netflix's 'Rhythm + Flow' Was a Hit full 15 Dan Runcie Ace “Call Me Ace” Patterson came back on the pod to break down Netflix’s Rhythm + Flow. We talked about what worked, what didn’t, how the hip-hop competition show compares to American Idol and Making the Band, and what we expect from Netflix... Ace “Call Me Ace” Patterson came back on the pod to break down Netflix’s Rhythm + Flow. We talked about what worked, what didn’t, how the hip-hop competition show compares to American Idol and Making the Band, and what we expect from Netflix next season! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest:  Ace Patterson, @callmeacelegit, airplanemode.callmeace.com Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Learn more about Trapital. Ace “Call Me Ace” Patterson came back on the pod to break down Netflix’s Rhythm + Flow. We talked about what worked, what didn’t, how the hip-hop competition show compares to American Idol and Making the Band, and what we expect from Netflix next season!

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest:  Ace Patterson, @callmeacelegit, airplanemode.callmeace.com

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Learn more about Trapital.

]]> 2411 no Mike Weissman on SoundCloud’s Creator Strategy, How it Compares to a Startup Accelerator, and What it Means to be a SoundCloud Rapper https://trapital.libsyn.com/mike-weissman-on-soundclouds-creator-strategy-how-it-compares-to-a-startup-accelerator-and-what-it-means-to-be-a-soundcloud-rapper Mike Weissman, President of SoundCloud, came on the pod to talk about the streaming company’s business model, how it compares to a tech accelerator, SoundCloud’s growth in the Middle East, SoundCloud rap, and what sets the company apart from its competitors. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest:  Mike Weissman, @soundcloud, soundcloud.com Links referenced: WIRED: As Streaming Services Boom, SoundCloud Strives for Relevancy (2017) Trapital: Why Hip-Hop Can Help Venture Capital Navigate Changes in the Industry (2019) Trapital: Why Streaming Services are Here to Stay (2019) SoundCloud: On Tuesday We Presented Lil’ Tecca with our First-Ever Chart-Topper Award (2019) - The sneakers are on this link! Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Learn more about Trapital. Mon, 11 Nov 2019 15:04:49 -0000 Mike Weissman on SoundCloud’s Creator Strategy, How it Compares to a Startup Accelerator, and What it Means to be a SoundCloud Rapper full 14 Dan Runcie Mike Weissman, President of SoundCloud, came on the pod to talk about the streaming company’s business model, how it compares to a tech accelerator, SoundCloud’s growth in the Middle East, SoundCloud rap, and what sets the company apart from its... Mike Weissman, President of SoundCloud, came on the pod to talk about the streaming company’s business model, how it compares to a tech accelerator, SoundCloud’s growth in the Middle East, SoundCloud rap, and what sets the company apart from its competitors. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest:  Mike Weissman, @soundcloud, soundcloud.com Links referenced: WIRED: As Streaming Services Boom, SoundCloud Strives for Relevancy (2017) Trapital: Why Hip-Hop Can Help Venture Capital Navigate Changes in the Industry (2019) Trapital: Why Streaming Services are Here to Stay (2019) SoundCloud: On Tuesday We Presented Lil’ Tecca with our First-Ever Chart-Topper Award (2019) - The sneakers are on this link! Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Learn more about Trapital. Mike Weissman, President of SoundCloud, came on the pod to talk about the streaming company’s business model, how it compares to a tech accelerator, SoundCloud’s growth in the Middle East, SoundCloud rap, and what sets the company apart from its competitors.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest:  Mike Weissman, @soundcloud, soundcloud.com

Links referenced:


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Learn more about Trapital.

]]> 2183 no Shea Serrano on the Economics of Book Publishing, ‘Movies (and Other Things),’ and How DJ Screw Inspired his Promotional Tactics https://trapital.libsyn.com/shea-serrano-on-his-content-strategy-for-movies-and-other-things-the-economics-of-book-publishing-and-how-dj-screw-inspired-his-promotional-tactics Shea Serrano, New York Times bestselling author and staff writer at The Ringer, came on the pod to chat about his strategy for his latest book ‘Movies (And Other Things),’ the pros and cons of selling independently vs. through a publisher, and how the late DJ Screw inspired his promotional tactics. We also talked about Shea's FOH Army fanbase, rappers who fumbled the bag with Fast & Furious franchise, why The Ringer CEO Bill Simmons is the plug, and his Top Five rappers. Don't miss this one. Tune in! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher |  YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest:  Shea Serrano, @sheaserrano, sheaserrano.com Links referenced: Book: Movies (and Other Things) - Shea Serrano (2019) PDF: Conference Room, Five Minutes - Shea Serrano (2018) - independently released Book: Basketball (and Other Things) - Shea Serrano (2017) Book: The Rap Year Book - Shea Serrano (2015) Book: Bun B’s Rapper Coloring Book and Activity Book - Shea Serrano (2013) Podcast: Mathew Knowles on Beyonce’s Streaming Strategy, Solange’s Marketing, and Dinner with Jay Z or $50,000? - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Learn more about Trapital. Mon, 04 Nov 2019 06:32:41 -0000 Shea Serrano on the Economics of Book Publishing, ‘Movies (and Other Things),’ and How DJ Screw Inspired his Promotional Tactics full 13 Dan Runcie Shea Serrano, New York Times bestselling author and staff writer at The Ringer, came on the pod to chat about his strategy for his latest book ‘Movies (And Other Things),’ the pros and cons of selling independently vs. through a publisher, and how... Shea Serrano, New York Times bestselling author and staff writer at The Ringer, came on the pod to chat about his strategy for his latest book ‘Movies (And Other Things),’ the pros and cons of selling independently vs. through a publisher, and how the late DJ Screw inspired his promotional tactics. We also talked about Shea's FOH Army fanbase, rappers who fumbled the bag with Fast & Furious franchise, why The Ringer CEO Bill Simmons is the plug, and his Top Five rappers. Don't miss this one. Tune in! Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher |  YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest:  Shea Serrano, @sheaserrano, sheaserrano.com Links referenced: Book: Movies (and Other Things) - Shea Serrano (2019) PDF: Conference Room, Five Minutes - Shea Serrano (2018) - independently released Book: Basketball (and Other Things) - Shea Serrano (2017) Book: The Rap Year Book - Shea Serrano (2015) Book: Bun B’s Rapper Coloring Book and Activity Book - Shea Serrano (2013) Podcast: Mathew Knowles on Beyonce’s Streaming Strategy, Solange’s Marketing, and Dinner with Jay Z or $50,000? - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Learn more about Trapital. Shea Serrano, New York Times bestselling author and staff writer at The Ringer, came on the pod to chat about his strategy for his latest book ‘Movies (And Other Things),’ the pros and cons of selling independently vs. through a publisher, and how the late DJ Screw inspired his promotional tactics.

We also talked about Shea's FOH Army fanbase, rappers who fumbled the bag with Fast & Furious franchise, why The Ringer CEO Bill Simmons is the plug, and his Top Five rappers. Don't miss this one. Tune in!

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher |  YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest:  Shea Serrano, @sheaserrano, sheaserrano.com

Links referenced:


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Learn more about Trapital.

]]> 2948 no DJ Semtex on UK Hip-Hop’s Moment, Stormzy and Skepta Becoming Stars, Brexit’s Impact on the Culture, and Why Radio Still Matters https://trapital.libsyn.com/dj-semtex-on-the-uk-hip-hops-moment-brexits-impact-on-political-music-and-why-radio-still-matters-in-the-streaming-and-podcasting-era DJ Semtex, award-winning DJ, radio host, author, and podcast, came on the pod to talk about the moment UK is having in hip-hop, how Brexit has impacted the hip-hop landscape, why he still loves radio. He even asked me some questions too! Tune in. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher |  YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: DJ Semtex, @djsemtex - Twitter, @djsemtex - Instagram Links referenced: Book: Hip-Hop Raised Me - DJ Semtex (2016) Podcast: Who We Be TALKS_ - DJ Semtex and Spotify Article: What Chance the Rapper Gets Wrong About Ownership - Trapital Article: Why Latin Hip-Hop is Still Undervalued - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Mon, 28 Oct 2019 06:57:24 -0000 DJ Semtex on UK Hip-Hop’s Moment, Stormzy and Skepta Becoming Stars, Brexit’s Impact on the Culture, and Why Radio Still Matters full 12 Dan Runcie DJ Semtex, award-winning DJ, radio host, author, and podcast, came on the pod to talk about the moment UK is having in hip-hop, how Brexit has impacted the hip-hop landscape, why he still loves radio. He even asked me some questions too! Tune in.... DJ Semtex, award-winning DJ, radio host, author, and podcast, came on the pod to talk about the moment UK is having in hip-hop, how Brexit has impacted the hip-hop landscape, why he still loves radio. He even asked me some questions too! Tune in. Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher |  YouTube | Overcast | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: DJ Semtex, @djsemtex - Twitter, @djsemtex - Instagram Links referenced: Book: Hip-Hop Raised Me - DJ Semtex (2016) Podcast: Who We Be TALKS_ - DJ Semtex and Spotify Article: What Chance the Rapper Gets Wrong About Ownership - Trapital Article: Why Latin Hip-Hop is Still Undervalued - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. DJ Semtex, award-winning DJ, radio host, author, and podcast, came on the pod to talk about the moment UK is having in hip-hop, how Brexit has impacted the hip-hop landscape, why he still loves radio. He even asked me some questions too! Tune in.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher |  YouTube | Overcast | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: DJ Semtex, @djsemtex - Twitter, @djsemtex - Instagram

Links referenced:

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist.

]]> 2863 no Akin Aliu on Life as a CAA Agent, Representing Ciara, and the “Rich Paul Rule” https://trapital.libsyn.com/akin-aliu-on-life-as-a-caa-agent-representing-ciara-and-the-rich-paul-rule Akin Aliu, Music Touring Agent at the Creative Artists Agency, came on the pod to talk about the BET Awards, representing Ciara, Freddie Gibbs, and Becky G, the NCAA’s “Rich Paul Rule,” and why big-time agents break out on their own.  Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Akin Aliu, @caamusic Links referenced: Article: Why Choosing the Right Concert Venue Matters - Trapital Article: Why Cardi B Doesn’t Need to Go On Tour - Trapital ESPN: NCAA amend “Rich Paul Rule” amid blowback Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Mon, 21 Oct 2019 16:23:58 -0000 Akin Aliu on Life as a CAA Agent, Representing Ciara, and the “Rich Paul Rule” full 11 Dan Runcie Akin Aliu, Music Touring Agent at the Creative Artists Agency, came on the pod to talk about the BET Awards, representing Ciara, Freddie Gibbs, and Becky G, the NCAA’s “Rich Paul Rule,” and why big-time agents break out on their own. ... Akin Aliu, Music Touring Agent at the Creative Artists Agency, came on the pod to talk about the BET Awards, representing Ciara, Freddie Gibbs, and Becky G, the NCAA’s “Rich Paul Rule,” and why big-time agents break out on their own.  Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Akin Aliu, @caamusic Links referenced: Article: Why Choosing the Right Concert Venue Matters - Trapital Article: Why Cardi B Doesn’t Need to Go On Tour - Trapital ESPN: NCAA amend “Rich Paul Rule” amid blowback Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Akin Aliu, Music Touring Agent at the Creative Artists Agency, came on the pod to talk about the BET Awards, representing Ciara, Freddie Gibbs, and Becky G, the NCAA’s “Rich Paul Rule,” and why big-time agents break out on their own. 

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Akin Aliu, @caamusic

Links referenced:

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist.

]]> 2455 no James Supreme on Being the A&R Behind Lil’ Nas X “Panini”, G-Eazy's Management Team, and why Mental Health Matters in the Industry https://trapital.libsyn.com/james-supreme-on-being-the-ar-behind-lil-nas-x-panini-managing-g-eazy-and-why-mental-health-matters-in-the-industry James Supreme, A&R at Universal Music Publishing Group, came on the pod to talk about his role in Lil’ Nas X’s second hit song “Panini”, the differences managing black rappers and white rappers, working with Beyonce’s Parkwood Entertainment team on The Lion King: The Gift, and why mental health matters in the music industry. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: James Supreme, @jamessupreme Links referenced: Article: How Lil’ Nas X’s Success Will Impact Hip-Hop - Trapital Article: White Rappers and Black Rappers Have Different Business Models - Trapital Article: What Chance the Rapper Gets Wrong About Ownership - Trapital Article: How Do You Follow Up ‘Old Town Road?’ If You’re Lil’ Nas, You Don’t Try - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Thu, 10 Oct 2019 23:27:38 -0000 James Supreme on Being the A&R Behind Lil’ Nas X “Panini”, G-Eazy's Management Team, and why Mental Health Matters in the Industry full 10 Dan Runcie James Supreme, A&R at Universal Music Publishing Group, came on the pod to talk about his role in Lil’ Nas X’s second hit song “Panini”, the differences managing black rappers and white rappers, working with Beyonce’s Parkwood... James Supreme, A&R at Universal Music Publishing Group, came on the pod to talk about his role in Lil’ Nas X’s second hit song “Panini”, the differences managing black rappers and white rappers, working with Beyonce’s Parkwood Entertainment team on The Lion King: The Gift, and why mental health matters in the music industry. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: James Supreme, @jamessupreme Links referenced: Article: How Lil’ Nas X’s Success Will Impact Hip-Hop - Trapital Article: White Rappers and Black Rappers Have Different Business Models - Trapital Article: What Chance the Rapper Gets Wrong About Ownership - Trapital Article: How Do You Follow Up ‘Old Town Road?’ If You’re Lil’ Nas, You Don’t Try - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. James Supreme, A&R at Universal Music Publishing Group, came on the pod to talk about his role in Lil’ Nas X’s second hit song “Panini”, the differences managing black rappers and white rappers, working with Beyonce’s Parkwood Entertainment team on The Lion King: The Gift, and why mental health matters in the music industry.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: James Supreme, @jamessupreme

Links referenced:


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist.

]]> 2660 no Dame Ritter on Kanye West’s Sunday Services, Launching Music Entrepreneur Club, and How He Almost Signed Russ to a Deal https://trapital.libsyn.com/dame-ritter-on-kanye-wests-sunday-services-launching-music-entrepreneur-club-and-how-he-almost-signed-russ-to-a-deal Dame Ritter, Founder and CEO of the Music Entrepreneur Club, came on the podcast to talk about the latest with Kanye West and his infamous Sunday Services. We also talked about Dame’s journey launching and running the Funk Volume record label, the business model for Music Entrepreneur Club, and how he almost signed Russ, and why he regrets turning down an opportunity to invest in the platinum-selling rapper. Tune in! Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Dame Ritter, @dame_mec - Twitter, @dame.mec - Instagram, https://musicentrepreneurclub.com/ Links referenced: Article: Why Kanye West’s Sunday Service Has Limited Power - Trapital Website: Music Entrepreneur Club Tour Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Tue, 08 Oct 2019 19:31:52 -0000 Dame Ritter on Kanye West’s Sunday Services, Launching Music Entrepreneur Club, and How He Almost Signed Russ to a Deal full 9 Dan Runcie Dame Ritter, Founder and CEO of the Music Entrepreneur Club, came on the podcast to talk about the latest with Kanye West and his infamous Sunday Services. We also talked about Dame’s journey launching and running the Funk Volume record label, the... Dame Ritter, Founder and CEO of the Music Entrepreneur Club, came on the podcast to talk about the latest with Kanye West and his infamous Sunday Services. We also talked about Dame’s journey launching and running the Funk Volume record label, the business model for Music Entrepreneur Club, and how he almost signed Russ, and why he regrets turning down an opportunity to invest in the platinum-selling rapper. Tune in! Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Dame Ritter, @dame_mec - Twitter, @dame.mec - Instagram, https://musicentrepreneurclub.com/ Links referenced: Article: Why Kanye West’s Sunday Service Has Limited Power - Trapital Website: Music Entrepreneur Club Tour Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Dame Ritter, Founder and CEO of the Music Entrepreneur Club, came on the podcast to talk about the latest with Kanye West and his infamous Sunday Services. We also talked about Dame’s journey launching and running the Funk Volume record label, the business model for Music Entrepreneur Club, and how he almost signed Russ, and why he regrets turning down an opportunity to invest in the platinum-selling rapper. Tune in!

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Dame Ritter, @dame_mec - Twitter, @dame.mec - Instagram, https://musicentrepreneurclub.com/

Links referenced:

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist.

]]> 2725 no Zack O’Malley Greenburg on the Forbes Hip-Hop Cash List, the Controversy it Causes, and What it Took to Declare that Jay Z is a Billionaire https://trapital.libsyn.com/zack-omalley-greenburg-on-the-forbes-hip-hop-cash-list-the-controversy-it-causes-and-what-it-took-to-declare-that-jay-z-is-a-billionaire Zack O’Malley Greenburg, Senior Editor of Media & Entertainment at Forbes, came through the Trapital Podcast to talk about the Forbes’ annual Hip-Hop Cash List. We talked about the artists like Cardi B and Meek Mill who question the results, the integrity challenges with self-reported data, the amount of work that goes into reporting a single number, and more. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog, forbes.com/sites/zackomalleygreenburg Links referenced: Article: Highest Paid Hip-Hop Acts 2019: Kanye Tops Jay Z to Claim Crown - Forbes Article: Kanye’s Second Coming: Inside the Billion-Dollar Yeezy Empire - Forbes Article: Artist, Icon, Billionaire: How Jay-Z Created His $1 Billion Fortune - Forbes Twitter: Cardi B, Meek Mill, “Pee” from Quality Control Music Article: Why Cardi B Doesn’t Need to Go on Tour - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Thu, 26 Sep 2019 18:35:46 -0000 Zack O’Malley Greenburg on the Forbes Hip-Hop Cash List, the Controversy it Causes, and What it Took to Declare that Jay Z is a Billionaire full 8 Dan Runcie Zack O’Malley Greenburg, Senior Editor of Media & Entertainment at Forbes, came through the Trapital Podcast to talk about the Forbes’ annual Hip-Hop Cash List. We talked about the artists like Cardi B and Meek Mill who question the results,... Zack O’Malley Greenburg, Senior Editor of Media & Entertainment at Forbes, came through the Trapital Podcast to talk about the Forbes’ annual Hip-Hop Cash List. We talked about the artists like Cardi B and Meek Mill who question the results, the integrity challenges with self-reported data, the amount of work that goes into reporting a single number, and more. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog, forbes.com/sites/zackomalleygreenburg Links referenced: Article: Highest Paid Hip-Hop Acts 2019: Kanye Tops Jay Z to Claim Crown - Forbes Article: Kanye’s Second Coming: Inside the Billion-Dollar Yeezy Empire - Forbes Article: Artist, Icon, Billionaire: How Jay-Z Created His $1 Billion Fortune - Forbes Twitter: Cardi B, Meek Mill, “Pee” from Quality Control Music Article: Why Cardi B Doesn’t Need to Go on Tour - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Zack O’Malley Greenburg, Senior Editor of Media & Entertainment at Forbes, came through the Trapital Podcast to talk about the Forbes’ annual Hip-Hop Cash List. We talked about the artists like Cardi B and Meek Mill who question the results, the integrity challenges with self-reported data, the amount of work that goes into reporting a single number, and more.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Zack O’Malley Greenburg, @zogblog, forbes.com/sites/zackomalleygreenburg

Links referenced:


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist.

]]> 2144 no 50 Cent is a Habitual Line Stepper https://trapital.libsyn.com/50-cent-is-a-habitual-line-stepper Dan is joined by Ace Patterson (hip-hop artist ‘Call Me Ace,’ Consumer Marketing at Facebook). They break down how 50 Cent built a brand on shock value, why he raises hell on social media, whether he’s changed his style, and why he’ll never get canceled. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Ace Patterson, @callmeacelegit, callmeace.com Links referenced: Article: Why 50 Cent Hasn't Been Canceled - Trapital Podcast: Moody Jones on marketing for Snoop Dogg, EMPIRE’s digital strategy, and why he wants to work with Childish Gambino - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Thu, 12 Sep 2019 20:11:45 -0000 50 Cent is a Habitual Line Stepper full 7 Dan Runcie Dan is joined by Ace Patterson (hip-hop artist ‘Call Me Ace,’ Consumer Marketing at Facebook). They break down how 50 Cent built a brand on shock value, why he raises hell on social media, whether he’s changed his style, and why he’ll never... Dan is joined by Ace Patterson (hip-hop artist ‘Call Me Ace,’ Consumer Marketing at Facebook). They break down how 50 Cent built a brand on shock value, why he raises hell on social media, whether he’s changed his style, and why he’ll never get canceled. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Ace Patterson, @callmeacelegit, callmeace.com Links referenced: Article: Why 50 Cent Hasn't Been Canceled - Trapital Podcast: Moody Jones on marketing for Snoop Dogg, EMPIRE’s digital strategy, and why he wants to work with Childish Gambino - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Dan is joined by Ace Patterson (hip-hop artist ‘Call Me Ace,’ Consumer Marketing at Facebook). They break down how 50 Cent built a brand on shock value, why he raises hell on social media, whether he’s changed his style, and why he’ll never get canceled.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Ace Patterson, @callmeacelegit, callmeace.com

Links referenced:


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist.

]]> 2523 no Moody Jones on marketing for Snoop Dogg, EMPIRE’s digital strategy, and why he wants to work with Childish Gambino https://trapital.libsyn.com/moody-jones-on-marketing-for-snoop-dogg-empires-digital-strategy-and-why-he-wants-to-work-with-childish-gambino Moody Jones, Head of Digital at EMPIRE, came through the Trapital Podcast to chat about his experience marketing for artists like Iggy Azalea, Tyga, XXXTentacion, and Snoop Dogg. He also broke down why he wants to work with Childish Gambino, and dropped some advice for the aspiring rappers who stay in his DMs. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS  Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Moody Jones, @moodyjones, empi.re Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Fri, 23 Aug 2019 12:58:08 -0000 Moody Jones on marketing for Snoop Dogg, EMPIRE’s digital strategy, and why he wants to work with Childish Gambino full 6 Dan Runcie Moody Jones, Head of Digital at EMPIRE, came through the Trapital Podcast to chat about his experience marketing for artists like Iggy Azalea, Tyga, XXXTentacion, and Snoop Dogg. He also broke down why he wants to work with Childish Gambino, and... Moody Jones, Head of Digital at EMPIRE, came through the Trapital Podcast to chat about his experience marketing for artists like Iggy Azalea, Tyga, XXXTentacion, and Snoop Dogg. He also broke down why he wants to work with Childish Gambino, and dropped some advice for the aspiring rappers who stay in his DMs. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS  Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Guest: Moody Jones, @moodyjones, empi.re Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Moody Jones, Head of Digital at EMPIRE, came through the Trapital Podcast to chat about his experience marketing for artists like Iggy Azalea, Tyga, XXXTentacion, and Snoop Dogg. He also broke down why he wants to work with Childish Gambino, and dropped some advice for the aspiring rappers who stay in his DMs.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS

 Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Guest: Moody Jones, @moodyjones, empi.re


Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist.

]]> 2392 no RapCaviar's Big Advantage https://trapital.libsyn.com/rapcaviars-big-advantage Dan explains why Spotify’s RapCaviar playlist still has a competitive advantage over its competitors and why that won’t change anything soon. But that doesn’t mean the other digital streaming providers should give up! Each competing playlist can still take steps in the right direction. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Links Discussed: Why Spotify’s RapCaviar Can’t Be Matched 8/8/2019 - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalst. Fri, 09 Aug 2019 14:03:54 -0000 RapCaviar's Big Advantage full 5 Dan Runcie Dan explains why Spotify’s RapCaviar playlist still has a competitive advantage over its competitors and why that won’t change anything soon. But that doesn’t mean the other digital streaming providers should give up! Each competing playlist can... Dan explains why Spotify’s RapCaviar playlist still has a competitive advantage over its competitors and why that won’t change anything soon. But that doesn’t mean the other digital streaming providers should give up! Each competing playlist can still take steps in the right direction. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Links Discussed: Why Spotify’s RapCaviar Can’t Be Matched 8/8/2019 - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalst. Dan explains why Spotify’s RapCaviar playlist still has a competitive advantage over its competitors and why that won’t change anything soon. But that doesn’t mean the other digital streaming providers should give up! Each competing playlist can still take steps in the right direction.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Links Discussed:

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalst.

]]> 576 no Roc Nation's Wild Year https://trapital.libsyn.com/roc-nations-wild-year Dan breaks down Roc Nation’s wild and eventful 2019--a bunch of execs got fired, there are new co-presidents for the record label, and a new joint venture record label with Meek Mill: Dream Chasers. There’s been A LOT going on, but the company needs to be intentional about its next steps. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Links Discussed: Why Roc Nation Needed to Restructure 7/31/2019 - Trapital Why Roc Nation May Move on From its Record Label 12/7/2018 - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Thu, 01 Aug 2019 13:49:19 -0000 Roc Nation's Wild Year full 4 Dan Runcie Dan breaks down Roc Nation’s wild and eventful 2019--a bunch of execs got fired, there are new co-presidents for the record label, and a new joint venture record label with Meek Mill: Dream Chasers. There’s been A LOT going on, but the company... Dan breaks down Roc Nation’s wild and eventful 2019--a bunch of execs got fired, there are new co-presidents for the record label, and a new joint venture record label with Meek Mill: Dream Chasers. There’s been A LOT going on, but the company needs to be intentional about its next steps. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co Links Discussed: Why Roc Nation Needed to Restructure 7/31/2019 - Trapital Why Roc Nation May Move on From its Record Label 12/7/2018 - Trapital Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist. Dan breaks down Roc Nation’s wild and eventful 2019--a bunch of execs got fired, there are new co-presidents for the record label, and a new joint venture record label with Meek Mill: Dream Chasers. There’s been A LOT going on, but the company needs to be intentional about its next steps.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.co

Links Discussed:

Hip-hop’s influence continues to grow. Take your insights to the next level. Become a Trapitalist.

]]> 554 no The Hip-Hop Partnership Flywheel https://trapital.libsyn.com/the-hip-hop-partnership-flywheel Dan breaks down why distribution is so critical for today’s hip-hop artists and how it has created a partnership flywheel that benefits Jay Z, Rihanna, and countless others. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, Trapital (trapital.co) Links Discussed: How Distribution Changed Hip-Hop for Better or Worse, Trapital To get all the content you need to level up on hip-hop business, become a Trapital member. Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:50:38 -0000 The Hip-Hop Partnership Flywheel full 3 Dan Runcie Dan breaks down why distribution is so critical for today’s hip-hop artists and how it has created a partnership flywheel that benefits Jay Z, Rihanna, and countless others. Subscribe: | | | Host: Dan Runcie, ,  (trapital.co) Links... Dan breaks down why distribution is so critical for today’s hip-hop artists and how it has created a partnership flywheel that benefits Jay Z, Rihanna, and countless others. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, Trapital (trapital.co) Links Discussed: How Distribution Changed Hip-Hop for Better or Worse, Trapital To get all the content you need to level up on hip-hop business, become a Trapital member. Dan breaks down why distribution is so critical for today’s hip-hop artists and how it has created a partnership flywheel that benefits Jay Z, Rihanna, and countless others.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, Trapital (trapital.co)

Links Discussed:


To get all the content you need to level up on hip-hop business, become a Trapital member.

]]> 597 no No Tour, No Problem for Cardi B https://trapital.libsyn.com/no-tour-no-problem-for-cardi-b Dan breaks down why Cardi B has held out on a major tour, why she’s on the festival circuit instead, and whether her model is one that other rappers can follow. Listen: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, trapital.co, @RuncieDan Links Discussed: Why Cardi B Doesn’t Need to Go On Tour - Trapital Why Choosing the Right Concert Venue Matters - Trapital Why Jay Z Partnered with Cannabis Company Caliva - Trapital GGB vs. Caliva - Web Smith, 2PM   To get all the content Trapital has to offer, become a member.   Mon, 15 Jul 2019 15:39:40 -0000 No Tour, No Problem for Cardi B full 2 Dan Runcie Dan breaks down why Cardi B has held out on a major tour, why she’s on the festival circuit instead, and whether her model is one that other rappers can follow. Listen: | | | Host: Dan Runcie, ,  Links Discussed: - Trapital - Trapital -... Dan breaks down why Cardi B has held out on a major tour, why she’s on the festival circuit instead, and whether her model is one that other rappers can follow. Listen: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, trapital.co, @RuncieDan Links Discussed: Why Cardi B Doesn’t Need to Go On Tour - Trapital Why Choosing the Right Concert Venue Matters - Trapital Why Jay Z Partnered with Cannabis Company Caliva - Trapital GGB vs. Caliva - Web Smith, 2PM   To get all the content Trapital has to offer, become a member.   Dan breaks down why Cardi B has held out on a major tour, why she’s on the festival circuit instead, and whether her model is one that other rappers can follow.

Listen: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, trapital.co, @RuncieDan

Links Discussed:

 

To get all the content Trapital has to offer, become a member.

 

]]> 539 no Mathew Knowles on Beyoncé's Streaming Strategy, Solange's Marketing, and Dinner with Jay Z or $50,000 https://trapital.libsyn.com/mathew-knowles-on-beyoncs-streaming-strategy-solanges-marketing-and-dinner-with-jay-z-or-50000 Mathew Knowles, founder and CEO of Music World Entertainment came through the Trapital podcast to talk shop on Beyoncé and her streaming strategy with Netflix and Tidal, Solange and BlackPlanet, and the burning internet question: Would you rather have dinner with Jay Z. We also ran through a list of lightning round questions from Trapital members. Check it out! Listen: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, Trapital Links Discussed: Beyonce’s Streaming Strategy, Explained, Trapital mathewknowles.com @mathewknowles - Twitter @mrmatherknowles - Instagram Trapital is the home for hip-hop business + strategy. I write one free article per week on a particular topic in the hip-hop business world. I also write additional content for Trapital's membership program. Stay up to date on Trapital between podcast episodes: https://trapital.co Mon, 08 Jul 2019 14:23:41 -0000 Mathew Knowles on Beyoncé's Streaming Strategy, Solange's Marketing, and Dinner with Jay Z or $50,000 full 1 Dan Runcie Mathew Knowles, founder and CEO of Music World Entertainment came through the Trapital podcast to talk shop on Beyoncé and her streaming strategy with Netflix and Tidal, Solange and BlackPlanet, and the burning internet question: Would you rather... Mathew Knowles, founder and CEO of Music World Entertainment came through the Trapital podcast to talk shop on Beyoncé and her streaming strategy with Netflix and Tidal, Solange and BlackPlanet, and the burning internet question: Would you rather have dinner with Jay Z. We also ran through a list of lightning round questions from Trapital members. Check it out! Listen: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, Trapital Links Discussed: Beyonce’s Streaming Strategy, Explained, Trapital mathewknowles.com @mathewknowles - Twitter @mrmatherknowles - Instagram Trapital is the home for hip-hop business + strategy. I write one free article per week on a particular topic in the hip-hop business world. I also write additional content for Trapital's membership program. Stay up to date on Trapital between podcast episodes: https://trapital.co Mathew Knowles, founder and CEO of Music World Entertainment came through the Trapital podcast to talk shop on Beyoncé and her streaming strategy with Netflix and Tidal, Solange and BlackPlanet, and the burning internet question: Would you rather have dinner with Jay Z.

We also ran through a list of lightning round questions from Trapital members. Check it out!

Listen: Apple Podcasts | SoundCloud | YouTube | RSS

Host: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, Trapital

Links Discussed:


Trapital is the home for hip-hop business + strategy. I write one free article per week on a particular topic in the hip-hop business world. I also write additional content for Trapital's membership program.

Stay up to date on Trapital between podcast episodes: https://trapital.co

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